open thread – September 18, 2015

by Alison Green on September 18, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,443 comments }

{ 1,443 comments… read them below }

  1. CrazyCatLady*

    On another thread this week, there was some conversation about interview questions. One of them that came up was, “What is your biggest failure?”

    What is YOUR biggest work failure – your actual answer, not your job interview answer?

    1. Kelly L.*

      I once said something medically dangerous because I overheard a conversation, misunderstood what I heard, and barged in. I got bailed out by someone else shouting me down, but I still think about it late at night sometimes, and it was maybe 6-7 years ago.

      1. Moksha Maginifique*

        I had about eight different medical files left on my desk while I was in a meeting, came back and had less than half an hour to get them ready for the FedEx pickup…and ended up switching two of the files. So a medical facility on one side of town got records for a patient who was not their own, and vice-versa.

    2. katamia*

      I was working in an inventory job a few years ago for a Major Retailer That Sells TVs Among Other Things, and my job was to count everything we had in stock–basically, to walk around and make tally marks on a piece of paper. Simple, right?

      Hahaha nope. I was hired at a weird time of year for them, so my manager and supervisor never trained me because they had other things that needed to get done. My counts were off every day, and I also had a very hard time fitting in with my fellow coworkers. I gave my 2 weeks’ notice after less than a month.

      I fumbled along for the next week after giving notice, and then that Friday, my supervisor took me aside and told me I’d somehow not counted 52 TVs. BIG-SCREEN TVs. The manager was furious, but my supervisor was kind and let me leave early and not work the last week of my notice period.

      To this day, I don’t know how I managed to miss so many because they’re so, well, big.

      1. Kelly L.*

        My guess is they were all stashed somewhere they didn’t even tell you to go, or like still on the truck or something. They sucked.

        1. katamia*

          That’s certainly possible. They never really told me how deliveries or anything worked, either. I suspect at least some of them were probably back in the stockroom, though, because that place was a maze. Every time I went back there I’d find some other corner with more TVs in it, it felt like.

      2. Vicki*

        Perhaps they were so big you didn’t see them?

        We once “lost” a 3′ x 5′ whiteboard in our house. (It was hanging on a wall).

        I also heard of a group at a University that “lost” a Very Large Crate. It was being used as a step down in the loading dock area…

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Worked there, done that. I really hate that it brought me way down personally too. That’s my big failure, letting it get to me.

    4. Sarahnova*

      As an intern, I was given the job of researching a new POS system for a client. I called a supplier, who demanded to know the client’s name. Being young and deeply startled at dealing with someone so aggressive, I told him. The salesman rang the client, the client’s CEO rang my boss.

      Fortunately as soon as the call was over, I fessed up to my boss and he didn’t hold it against me.

      That and the time I accidentally texted my less-than-kind and not very appropriate for work thoughts about a colleague… to the colleague. That one has a happy ending, and I apologised profusely, but said colleague would have been well within his rights to cause some trouble for me. As it was we thrashed out our frustrations and ended up with a bet relationship.

        1. Kelly L.*

          I had a job where that was…exploited for jokes, all the time. Because it was a POS in both senses of the word.

    5. Embarrassed anon*

      I do prospect research and I sent information to a gift officer that had the prospect’s wife’s employment wrong. He met with the couple and she was like, “I don’t do A, I do B.” It was a very uncommon name and I just really effed up.

    6. Bagworm*

      When I worked as a bank teller, I was fired because I had three outages (their policy) (all paper and the bank recovered all the funds but I’m sure they didn’t like having to go back to a customer and say, we gave you $5k too much on that bond we cashed and need it back). It haunts me to this day because I feel like I can’t say I have great attention to detail which is apparently absolutely critical to every single job on the planet (although I really do now, I went on to be a proofreader, editor and acting Finance Director).

      This is also one of my proudest moments though. Despite the fact that I was crying (my manager started it), I managed to get myself together enough to ask if the bank had any non-cash handling positions I might move into (instead of just being terminated) and it worked out. I got a position as a receptionist and it’s still (20 years later) one of the best jobs I ever had.

      1. AMT*

        I love that you were able to salvage the job and had the wherewithal to ask to move – I don’t know if I would have thought of it in your shoes, but that’s a great story that it worked out for you!

      2. Dana*

        I’m a proofreader currently and trying to think of other areas of work I might like to move into (long story). Did you have certain other experience that led you into Finance? I’ve been mulling that one over but I’m an English major with no finance background besides cash handling.

        1. knitcrazybooknut*

          Just in case this helps: Database work of any kind involves painstaking attention to detail. You don’t have to be a geek to help with data standardization, developing processes and procedures for entering and auditing, being the double-checker that people lean on, etc. I work in HR, but there are zillions of databases that need very specific skills that are tougher to hire for than you might think.

        2. Bagworm*

          I’m afraid mine was a rather circuitous route (worked frontline human services, then gran writing / development communications, then annual fund and capital development). I got a job in the finance department at a nonprofit I had worked at previously because the then Director of Finance thought I had an aptitude for it. Apparently, I do and when she retired I took on her position (temporarily). If you’re interested in finance specifically, our local community college offers a certificate in accounting that, if you already have a Bachelor’s degree (in any subject) will give you the educational credits necessary to sit for the CPA exam.

          If you’re not looking at finance specifically, I think knitcrazybooknut’s suggestion about database work is a good one (I’ve done some of that, too). Good luck!

      3. Lily Rowan*

        Wow — I was a terrible bank teller, too, but since most of my problems were just in counting out at the end of the day, it worked out OK. One day I’d be “short,” but the money would turn up the next day! Thank goodness my coworkers and head teller covered for me.

    7. So anon for this one...*

      When I was working in politics, I accidentally spoke without authorization to a reporter. What I actually said was in line with our official talking points, but Comms was also very clear that if you knew you were talking to a journalist, you should refer them immediately to them instead of saying even anything related to the talking points.

      Thankfully, nothing came out of it and the journalist and her paper never even published a piece on the topic. But man, was I up for a week, refreshing her page madly and imagining the damage to my career…

      1. Nashira*

        Oh god, I did this when working at a state agency that handled mental health. I didn’t say anything that was a problem, since it consisted of “let me find someone to help you with that”, but it was my first job and no one told me how to handle the press or legislators. My boss took the blame, but I ended up crying in the bathroom over it. So embarrassing.

        1. So anon for this one...*

          It was my first job too! No one ever found out because the piece was never written or published, but it was definitely a fireable offense and I was so lucky that the potential article never happened.

          I’m no longer in politics, but still in a very front-facing role… and I still always stick to my talking points. :)

      2. Chameleon*

        That reminds me of when I was a bank teller and talked to the cops about a bad check without telling my manager. When she found out we had a little chat about the chain of command. ( What’s worse that I was the one who cashed the check, against policy. Not sure how I kept that job.)

      3. Bea W*

        This and the replies remind me of when I was working at in the evening/weekend division of a community college in a city that was mildly *cough* corrupt and certain local politicians took their power and influence for granted. One of these people walked in to register for a class. When I took the sheet he needed for entry and instructed him to go pay for the class and come back for the sheet, he told me my boss had said he did not have to pay. My boss was not available in the office at the time, had left no note or instruction about this arrangement, and there was no way in heck I was risking just letting someone walk away with the pink copy without having paid. I had been trained never to give a student the pink copy without seeing proof of payment, no matter what they said, that I absolutely had to clear it with my boss first. He argued about it, and eventually left without his registration slip. I filed it with all of the other slips awaiting proof of payment.

        After he left, the cashier at the other end of the desk said “Do you know who that was…”

        Actually, yes I did know who the guy was. I simply answered “Yes” and left it at that. I did know who the guy was, and on top of being a local politician he was also a guy who hadn’t paid for his class. Therefore, I didn’t give a rat’s butt who he was or who he knew. If my boss was willing to give him a free class, she was welcome to do that, but I was a minimum wage student worker with absolutely no authority, and I wasn’t taking a chance on losing my job if it turned out my boss had made no such agreement.

        I don’t personally consider that a mistake, but everyone else did. I’ll still agree to disagree there. I’d have gladly given him his free class if my boss had bothered to either tell me or leave a note, but she didn’t, and there was one high enough on the food chain to back that story up.

      4. Effective Immediately*

        I work for a “controversial” org that has a very public political face; I constantly worry about this very thing.

        Oof. You have all my empathy there.

      5. Artemesia*

        We had an intern working for a politician who when asked by a reporter about the pol’s position on some issue said ‘no comment.’ He simply didn’t know that ‘no comment’ was a reportable comment and so the politician got tagged in the paper with looking like a jerk who couldn’t stand up. The intern was fired but I felt bad that he hadn’t been briefed on how to handle such inquiries. It is quite different to say, ‘I don’t know’ or ‘I can’t talk about these issues with the press’ than to say ‘no comment’ as if this were the position of the boss.

    8. Dot Warner*

      Taking a job that I knew was out of my league because I wanted to move to the area where my family lives. I was hoping to spend more time with my family, and now I have loads more time to spend with them because I lost the job. :(

        1. Dot Warner*

          Basically, the work was related to what I had been doing but significantly more complex. I thought I could handle the challenge. I was wrong.

          1. afiendishthingy*

            I did the same thing except I was in a foreign country. Quit after less than a month because I was basically having a nervous breakdown. Not just because of the job but it was definitely a major factor. Then got a job that was easy except it was a small family business where if I did make a mistake my boss yelled at me until I cried. Good times.

      2. Sara The Event Planner*

        To be fair, I’d say that’s a case of bad hiring on the employer’s part. If they hired you knowing that you didn’t meet their qualifications, that’s on them!

          1. Dot Warner*

            Nope, just didn’t realize how wide the gap between my skills and the skills required for the job was. I thought it was a creek; turns out it was the Mississippi. (Although I can’t blame you for thinking of dishonesty, given some of the stuff that’s been posted here lately!)

            1. CrazyCatLady*

              Oh no, I didn’t mean YOU were being dishonest! :) I just meant in general that it’s not always the employer’s fault.

    9. Amber Rose*

      The worst failure in terms of possible consequences was when I worked at a deli and served raw pork sausages for the better part of a day because I didn’t realize the thermometers hadn’t been calibrated (I’d never been taught how to do it, but I didn’t check the calibration log and I should have).

      The worst failure in terms of sheer embarassment was the time I mistyped a description on a legal document, had the client ship in their corporate seal from another province to sign it, AND sent it to the government without realizing what I’d done. Most humiliating rejection notice ever, over one transposed number (a 7 instead of a 2).

      Fortunately it was an easy fix (albeit somewhat illegal but I had the client’s blessing) that only delayed things by 24 hours.

    10. Mallory Janis Ian*

      In a factory job I worked in my early twenties, we machine operators had to take a daily break from production to go and clean the lines on which we were working for the mechanics. The machine I cleaned had a loose metal doughnut-shaped part that sat on top of some canisters, and I would move it out of the way to clean and then put it back. One day, I forgot to put it back. When the mechanic started up the line, he heard a hellacious loud racket and immediately shut down the line. However, the damage was already done; the metal thing had ricocheted around in there, bashing in the sides of every single canister on the machine. It cost over $50,000 to repair the machine, and the repair team had to come for Sweden. They were here for almost three weeks, including hotel, meals, and a rental car for them. So . . . yeah . . .

      I didn’t even get fired :-0 Not even a talking-to, other than, “How did this happen?” and me explaining how I’d forgotten to set the loose part back up top.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Wow, that sounds like it was a recipe for disaster anyway. If it’s that easy to move that part, there should be some sort of failsafe that won’t let the line start up if it isn’t there. Because these things WILL happen, no matter how careful people are or how well you train them. It’s not like you jury-rigged something to circumvent a failsafe.

          2. Mallory Janis Ian*

            Yeah, I think the reason I wasn’t fired was that, who *wouldn’t* have eventually had that particular accident? My bosses were reasonable enough to see that. I was worried for awhile, though, because even though it was an accident, the damage was so much! I thought they might still fire me because I should have been more diligent.

      2. Meg Murry*

        Oh yes, I almost forgot about the day I tripped over a charging cord and a $25,000 instrument went crashing to the ground, and didn’t work after that. I was so terrified telling my bosses that I thought I broke the (really expensive instrument that got used multiple times a day and was essential to do our jobs).

        Luckily, another department had the same instrument, so it did completely shut us down, just meant we had to walk pretty darn far a couple times a day.

        Also, the supplier was willing to take the broken instrument as a “trade-in” and we were able to go in with another department to get deals on the newer upgraded model.

        I’m pretty sure I kept my job only because I’d been there a few years and had a track record of good work and there was a hiring freeze – I suspect a newer employee would have been fired for that, or at least put on final warning.

        1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

          I hope they learned not to plug in expensive equipment where it can easily be tripped over after that. It’s not just about the equipment. That’s a safety hazard too. Unless you were the one to plug it in, it would be unfair to get fired over that.

        1. nth time commenter*

          Not only have I BTDT, I have a suspicion I am being there and doing that at the moment. Note to self: get act together.

          (It’s a vicious circle at the moment, because getting behind and letting myself get overwhelmed makes me anxious and demoralised, which dents my concentration and my motivation, and I get more and more behind and overwhelmed…)

          1. Revolver Rani*

            I was in that cycle once. I really feel for you. I was lucky – I read the handwriting on the wall and got a new job (actually a career change), and at the review meeting at which I was probably going to get fired, I was able to give notice instead. The looks of relief on the faces of the bosses was quite a sight.

    12. Lore*

      My boss is a little prickly at the best of times. When they announced the plans to “restack” our office, meaning 10 of his senior staffers lost their offices and got relocated to the world’s most poorly designed cubicles, there was a lot of misery. I am very easily distracted by noise and was kind of freaking out about the whole thing, especially when it was announced that the company would not supply any kind of headsets for phones (but we were welcome to buy our own!). After a few weeks of being shot down on every idea I could think of that might make the transition easier (more flexibility to work from home, installing extra bookshelves in common areas that we could use for storage, putting larger tables in lobby areas so we could have a place to spread out and work), I asked our office supply person if he could order earplugs, which they had in our standard catalog. In retrospect, I see how all of this came off as verging on insubordinate, but at the time I really thought I was trying to problem-solve in a useful way. My boss flipped out. I then proceeded to have a complete and total emotional meltdown in his office, to the point that he offered to send me home for the rest of the day. I was pretty upset by the situation, and genuinely frightened that I’d fail completely at my work in the new environment, but I lost it in a completely overblown way.

    13. Lily in NYC*

      I worked for a national weekly magazine and didn’t notice that a story had moved to another spot in the magazine at the last minute before we went to print. There are tons of rules about ad placement, and it was a story about a plane crash that ended up next to an airline ad. Oops! That’s a big mistake and cost us 50K because we had to give them free ad space to make up for it. I felt terrible but I didn’t even get in a tiny bit of trouble. No one even got mad! I think they knew that I didn’t make mistakes very often and that I already felt horrible about it.

      1. Sprocket*

        I’m sorry to say but there’s a part of me that gets a real good chuckle out of those types of juxtapositions

    14. AVP*

      My job is to be incredibly anal and punctual and on top of everything, and that’s my personality….95% of the time. That last 5%, when I’m tired and out of it and veering into DGAF territory, is a killer for me. I’ve gotten really, really lucky a few times and skirted major issues, but the edge can be very close. I’m working on it.

    15. changing my name just to be safe*

      I don’t know if this is a failure so much as something I kind of regret, but I, uh, called out the CEO of the company at a video-taped town hall meeting for talking about how the company gave livable salaries to its employees when they didn’t. It was a pretty toxic environment and it was a year when we got no raises, no bonuses, and our healthcare costs were increased so paychecks were actually less than we were making before. To add it all off, executive management slashed department budgets so it made it look like we came in under our goals and they received six figure bonuses. One of the executive assistants had “accidentally left” an email in the printer from her boss listing the bonuses the execs were getting. At the time my Editor-in-Chief got a $100,000 bonus. Meanwhile I was making $29,000 before taxes and trying to survive on my own in an East Coast city. This was about five years ago, so that salary was not a lot.

      Cue the town hall meeting where the CEO starts talking about how the company relies on its employees, how he’s soooo proud that they provide high wages and a lot of other crap, such as how he believes executive management shouldn’t get bonuses if the company can’t afford to give everyone a bonus. How he understands “struggle” because once he had to share a hotel bathroom with a coworker when they were on a conference and couldn’t get separate rooms. How he knows the economy is bad so he had to cut his extra premium international sports cable channels and was thinking of downgrading his family’s vacation homes.

      It was so infuriating that I pretty much just lost it and when Q&A came, I asked if he really thought it was fair to compare his situation to people who were making barely enough money to survive on their own, had to have two or three extra jobs to pay bills or loans, and didn’t receive a $100,000+ bonus that year. I have never seen someone’s face go pale that quickly. He stammered out a reply about how they totally pay high wages and that even assistant level salaries could provide people with money to buy a home (assistants made less than I did at the time). Everything got awkward very quickly and the town hall meeting ended shortly after.

      I ended up getting put on probation because of it, and my boss haaaated me (she was a by the books, kool-aid drinking company lifer) and kept telling me that “nice girls don’t do things like that” (which is an entirely different issue), and it made the next few months of my life at that company miserable. I don’t regret calling out our CEO and I’ve always been the type to call people out on their BS, but I do think in hindsight that it was really unprofessional. It was just the tipping point of a really toxic environment (though, after I left, a former coworker emailed me and said the video of the town hall had been passed around the different offices and made people less afraid to speak up in town hall meetings, so I guess there’s that?)

      2. Golden Yeti*

        Wow. Probably not the best way to go about it, but at the same time, bravo for actually saying what everybody was probably thinking.

        I have no filter on my brain at work anymore (so thoughts like “bs,” “I don’t believe you,” etc. fly around there instantaneously). I’m afraid that one day my mouth filter will break, too, and I’ll actually say what I’m thinking…

      3. Cass*

        Wowwwwww! I admire your chutzpah :) I was in a similar situation, and never would of thought of actually standing up and saying something! I save it for rants to my husband lol.

      4. Chameleon*

        Honestly, I think that’s awesome and I’m proud of you for doing this. More people should be willing to call out bullsh*t like this–it would make the world a better place.

      5. Mike C.*

        That’s absolutely badass, and I think you’re an awesome person for sticking your neck out like that. Like your coworker mentioned, being the first one is hard, but it makes it much easier for others to follow.

        I don’t think it’s unprofessional at all to ask from accountability, transparency or fair ethics from those you work with. There is so much harm that could be avoided if more people were willing to ask for this.

      6. intldevt*

        Not a model of professionalism, perhaps…but incredibly badass. I bet every single other person at that town hall meeting was ecstatic that you spoke up.

      7. steve g*

        Good job standing up for the little guy! If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, did it make a noise? In the same vein, if you are “unprofessional” amidst a bunch of clueless people like that, does it really matter?

      8. Mallory Janis Ian*

        You’re kind of my hero right now for doing this. I don’t know if I could ever have the courage. We need more like you!

      9. Stella Maris*

        Good for you, I think. (I mean, no, not the most professional thing to do, but I think what you did was very brave – and necessary!)

      11. AdAgencyChick*

        I have so many times dreamed of being you in that situation. I say good for you, especially since you got out.

      12. Lizzie*

        “Nice girls don’t do things like that?” SERIOUSLY?

        I would’ve been fired. Immediately. I would not have been able to keep my mouth shut. Nice girls may not do that in your world, but in mine, nice CEOs (or at the very least, those operating on a baseline of I’m-not-a-dillhole) pay their employees a living wage.

        Excuse me, I have to go spit fire at something.

      13. Not So NewReader*

        I am not seeing anything unprofessional here. I am not going to cover for anyone’s lack of ethics or anyone’s lies. I think the CEO’s expectation that she could say anything she wanted to in public and you would go along with it, is unrealistic/ out of touch, at best.

        As far as, “nice girls”, 1) you an adult, not a child and 2) if she was “nice”, (turning her own word back on her) then this whole situation would not have occured.

        I think you rock.

        1. Effective Immediately*

          Yeah, really. I wonder how many of those executives got where they are by being “nice” all the time.

          I think admonishing staff to be “nice” and compliant is often a way to maintain the feudal-style corporate culture at places like this. I’m glad my company rewards movers and shakers; I would call this far from a mistake. That poster was probably something of a hero to her peers for doing that.

      14. Charlotte Collins*

        Personally, I don’t really think it’s as unprofessional as all that. The conversation was started by the CEO, and then there was Q&A. You asked valid questions based on the topic under discussion. If they didn’t want staff to ask real questions, they should not schedule a Q&A. That one’s on them.

        I’m glad you got other staff to be more willing to speak up. I think that giving honest feedback is better than just toeing the company line.

    16. the gold digger*

      1. I used to sell employee benefits. We had an account where the company carried only $5,000 of life insurance on each employee. I had talked to the controller about it a few times, saying that was not even enough to bury someone and that the standard was at least one times salary. Controller, who also became a friend, shrugged it off and I dropped it.

      A few months later, he was diagnosed with cancer. He was only 31. He died shortly thereafter, leaving a wife and a baby – and had no other life insurance than the $5,000. I still get sick to my stomach thinking about that.

      2. I was in a meeting with the executive team at my job. I was the only woman. One of the guys was talking about golfing and said something about hitting the ball into the smegma.

      I gasped and said, “The WHAT?”

      He said, “You know! The weeds in the water!”

      I said, “That is not what that word means.”

      He asked, “It’s an actual word? I just made it up because it sounds like the weeds and mess in the water.”

      I explained – in front of everyone – what the word actually meant. He was horrified and so apologetic and worried that he had offended me.

      I should have kept my mouth shut. I should have just pulled the guy aside in private later and said something like, “I don’t think that word means what you think it means. Maybe you should look it up.”

      It has been over 15 years and I still feel bad for humiliating him in front of his co-workers and boss. I should have handled that differently.

      1. Audiophile*

        1. That’s so unfortunate. I’ve never had any additional life insurance, I’ve only carried what was offered by my then-employer.

        2. It’s hilarious to me that he thought he made up a word. I don’t think you did anything wrong by telling him the way you did. I’m a full believer in not making up words on the fly.

    17. Jennifer*

      When someone on the phone started telling me how horrible I was (honestly, I wasn’t being horrible, but I wasn’t giving her what she wanted to hear), I agreed with her. She called every office she possibly could after that to complain about me.

    18. Stella Maris*

      I was pulled in by a VP on a day when my manager was away and told that I was being moved from one office to another (in another part of town) and I’d be basically doing her job there. I knew I was not remotely qualified to do that, and asked to wait for her to return to discuss it before I accepted or not. They said “There’s no discussion, you’re going or you’re fired.” So I agreed… then was crying in the bathroom when the CEO’s admin came in and found me, asked what was wrong, and I told her… and then got fired for breach of confidentiality.

      My failure was accepting all of this as normal (it was my first job out of university) and not fighting for my rights… although I was glad to be out of there!

      1. Audiophile*

        Whaaaat??!?

        They were transferring you to an office in another part of town to do your manager’s job? And then they fired you for telling the admin, what they were planning to do? That’s insane.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This is where I think that younger people are taken advantage of. Crap like this stopped happening once my white hair came in.
          I am wondering if they wanted to fire you for some made up reason and when you actually agreed to go to the new office, they were stymied. They could not fire you for their made up reason.

          I was denied a promotion once because I refused to climb ladders. A coworker said that she would do it for me, because she wanted me to get the new position. They did not promote me. I said, “Okay, what’s the real reason?” The rumor mill replied, “You are married. You won’t move to West Overshoe for the money they are paying.” I was in my twenties and they could not manipulate me, so no promotion. A peer got promoted and inside of three years he made two major moves. He was single.

          1. Stella Maris*

            “I am wondering if they wanted to fire you for some made up reason and when you actually agreed to go to the new office, they were stymied. They could not fire you for their made up reason.”

            Well, I’ll say this: I no longer think it was a coincidence that the CEO’s admin found me in that bathroom….

        2. Stella Maris*

          Yep, basically insane. (I think they wanted me to do my manager’s job – which was admin admin project management supervision – in the new office, while she stayed at the old office. I was in NO WAY qualified to do that. I was ordering office supplies and filing time cards!)

          I no longer think it was a coincidence that the CEO’s admin found me in that bathroom….

    19. alter_ego*

      I fell for that scam where a company calls up and pretends to be from your existing toner supplier, saying that your due of a new order, and asks if you want them to send it to you. Then, when you receive it, they bill you an exorbitantly high price, and claim a no return policy. It was within my first couple of weeks at this internship, they mentioned, by name, the person who’d had the internship before me, and my duties and stuff weren’t really spelled out, it was just a “do what people to ask you to do” type thing. So I figured the previous intern had been handling it, and now I should. I didn’t get in trouble, but it was a HUGE issue to deal with, because I was working for a municipal government branch, and so they couldn’t just eat the few hundred dollars and chalk it up to a lesson learned, because everything is taxpayer money, so they need to account for every dime. It was a total nightmare.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Toner phoners. That was a big scam. A lot of people got drawn into it, too. The only way I knew about it was because my husband was in the field. He used to warn his customers.

      4. InterviewFreeZone*

        lol. I’m sorry but I had to laugh because this was an issue I was warned about constantly at my first job. They even had a memo they gave you on the first day that addressed the toner scammers. I’m so sorry they tricked you!

    20. Malissa*

      Speaking of this I just received somebody else’s mistake. I just got a rather large check from a contractor we haven’t had a contract with in a while. I emailed him to thank him for the bonus. :)

    21. Seal*

      Many years ago I was working at a job I absolutely hated while dealing with depression; while my job performance was fine, my attendance and professional judgement often suffered. This was compounded by the fact that I had a boss who had been made a supervisor against her wishes. While she was an otherwise nice woman, she was very hands-off and pretty much left everyone to their own devices. I had hired a part-time worker for a summer job and neglected to do the paperwork necessary for her to get paid. This was something that would have taken about 15 minutes to do, but for whatever reason I just kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off, to the point that this poor woman missed her first paycheck. Once I finally submitted the paperwork all hell broke loose, because no one was supposed to start work unless all of their paperwork had been submitted and approved. Surprisingly, while HR absolutely blasted me – and rightly so – in an email that was copied to my boss, her boss, and her boss’s boss, nothing happened to me. My boss just told me not to do it again and rolled her eyes at what she felt was HR’s righteous indignation. Once the part-time employee got her late paycheck, she was fine too – in fact, we had a very cordial relationship while she worked for me. But I still shudder to think that my inaction messed up someone’s paycheck.

    22. Sparty07*

      9 months into my rotational program out of school and I was working on a file that someone in my role 2 rotations before me had created. As I was putting it together close to the end of our lengthy restatement I realized that the file had a bad formula and we had been missing $1 mm of additional expenses. On a Friday mid-day I sent the file with a quick description of the issue to the Canadian team who used the file as back-up when they book the journal entries. Around 4:00 I got a call from the Corporate Controller and VP of Technical Accounting asking why they suddenly had an extra $1 mm of expense they weren’t expecting. Lesson learned, when inheriting a spreadsheet, fully understand how it works and how that relates to the final output.

    23. Winter is Coming*

      I once mistakenly sent a purchase order that was meant for a vendor to the customer I had sold the product to. So, in other words, my customer could see that I bought the item for $1000 and sold it to him for $1200. Granted, most people understand that businesses do make profits, but it was still really embarrassing.

    24. Anon for this*

      One time, I was talking to a coworker who was a good friend, and we were venting about how much our jobs sucked. I said, “Ugh, this place makes me want to shoot myself.” Another coworker who had a grudge against me overheard this and went to our boss, saying that I was suicidal and threatened to kill myself and she was afraid I was going to “go postal” and hurt other employees. Without even asking me if I said that or giving me a chance to explain the context, the boss made a mandatory referral to the EAP and forced me to take a month off to go to psychological counseling, which I had to pay for out of my own pocket after I used up the company-covered sessions. It cost me thousands of dollars, all because of one stupid, thoughtless comment. It was a very expensive lesson in being careful about what you say at work.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is a company that is out of control on so many levels. One person has the power to create all this havoc? Something is very wrong there.

        1. Anon for this*

          Yes, there were a lot of screwed up things happening at that company. Their philosophy was discipline first, ask questions later (or never). Working there was a very eye-opening experience about how powerless employees are to protect themselves against injustice at work.

    25. HarryV*

      I work with enterprise routers. Ones where it can support numerous major customers within a city. I was being trained by a supposedly more seasoned engineer. We tested a script which I loaded. We were done and he told me to clean it up by removing the script. Well the engineer failed to notice that one of the scrip was a global script and not a customer specific script. It caused an outage to roughly 50-60 customers for about 30-40 min. No one got in big trouble but needless to say, I never took much advise from him again!

    26. NicoleK*

      I lost my cool and gave new coworker a piece of my mind. Had to apologize to her, fess up to my boss, and now I’m going to have to sit down with coworker and a third party to work out our differences.

    27. Anon today*

      As an intern at a software company that was growing from small to medium, I had to do a lot of establishing standards and documentation where there were none before. Part of this was establishing unit testing guidelines for the source code in our workgroup (with some help from a senior dev.)

      Well, a few months later I was working remotely, about half-time due to health issues, when the higher ups decided our workgroup should be used as an example to other areas, particularly in how thorough our testing was. My co-worker and I got invited to a meeting with our boss, on up through a few Program Managers and I think our VP, to discuss the standards that we’d written, how the group had been using them, and how they could apply across the organization. I woke up late that day and called in *halfway through*. I did my best to answer questions after I arrived and no one mentioned it, either at the time or later, but I still cringe thinking about it – I’m sure I turned what could have been an opportunity to impress into some burned bridges.

      To be fair, the main reason I had such trouble being on time then was indeed my health… but if I had had any sense of professionalism, I would have figured out a way to make it happen that one day!

  2. Jenn Po*

    Repeat posting from two weeks ago—I got some excellent responses and insights (thank you!!) and wanted to see if some people who missed it before wanted to weigh in; this will be my last time to post this so I don’t clog the Open Thread.

    Calling engineers! I’m an editor at an engineering education magazine. I’m working on an article about engineering women (especially in academia, but not necessarily limited to that field) who have been interested in entrepreneurship, but haven’t entered it for whatever reason.

    My article is inspired by this quote from an Ohio State study called Academic Women: Overlooked Entrepreneurs: “Faculty, particularly those in the basic sciences, have chosen academia over other career paths (especially industry). A strong prejudice against business thinking prevails, which produces a parallel distaste for commercialization—the ‘ick’ factor. One faculty member even described venture capital funding as ‘dirty money.’” They used a fairly small sample size and didn’t focus solely on engineers, who are more open to entrepreneurship, but still sometimes deterred.

    It does jibe with other national data I’m seeing: 95% of angel funding goes to white men, while less than 1% of funding goes to non-Asian minorities; women-owned businesses are more likely to be started with personal capital, and many of them are started with $5,000 or less (and are smaller, but more successful long-term), whereas the average start-up funding for men is $30,000. Interestingly, 41% of women-owned businesses who apply for funding get it, but they only receive 5% of the overall available funds.

    There is plenty of speculation about the traits that make for successful entrepreneurs—including the discredited “entrepreneurial gene”—but I’m wondering about this side of risk aversion that we rarely hear about: that there might be a built-in moral imperative stopping people from getting into entrepreneurship or borrowing money.

    I’m looking for people who have any experience with this at all who might be interested in speaking with me. This has proven to be a difficult article to research because I’m trying to find stories from people who exist, but aren’t often talked about: Highly intelligent, driven people who DIDN’T accomplish something because they found the standard methods of entering the practice to be inherently objectionable. I believe that AAM readers are the most thoughtful, diverse group of people on the Internet, so I thought that some of you might have experience with this–or know people who do. Please either comment or reach out to me directly: I’ll post my email in the next comment because of moderation.

    TL;DR: Journalist looking for women engineers who didn’t get into entrepreneurship because Venture Capital, Angel Investors, businesspeople are shady. Please comment or message me with your story! (Email in next comment for moderation.)

    1. girl programmer*

      My setback is personal capital, actually. You hear all the stories about ‘living off credit cards until the series A’, and I am sorry, I can’t do that. A lot of the guys my age, ie the 4-8 years out of college range, have been working in the field all the time, and probably have a lot more cushion, but I’ve taken a more circuitous path and am barely not in debt. And having been in an acquisition where things went to hell, I have seen the less than sunny side of our investors.

      However it is still fun to go to the more businessy meetups, tell angel investors I’m a programmer, and have them go, ‘they (being companies) must be all over you’. One day, it is going to be hard not to go, “yeah, and I’d quit to go at it alone if you can help me get together $50k.” Ideas don’t really matter that much.

    4. AnonAcademic*

      I am not an engineer, but I am female and have a technical skillset that could lend itself well to industry if I was so inclined. I live in Silicon Valley and work in research at a university. For me one of the biggest barriers to considering entrepreneurship is risk tolerance. From what I know about brain development and my observations teaching hundreds of college students, between lagging prefrontal development and the effects of high testosterone, I think some men in the 20-25 range are physiologically biased to have a higher risk tolerance than average. Hence the willingness to live off credit cards while praying for angel investment from rich Armenian rug dealers (that is apparently A Thing). I have a more modest risk tolerance and I am allergic to sleazy business people and especially business jargon, so it would not be a good fit.

      That said, trying to get funding in my field requires some schmoozing also (of NIH program directors, philanthropic donors, etc.) but in theory those being schmoozed have some investment in the research topic, as opposed to it being a purely financial transaction. I find entirely transactional/financial fields too soulless to tolerate.

      1. dancer*

        I think this is a good point. I definitely have a much lower risk tolerance than many of my (male) friends and coworkers. The reason I have never considered being an enterpreneur is that I think I don’t have any good ideas for a company. However, I have friends who made the plunge on what I think are completely stupid ideas. They are far more optimistic than I am and are willing to risk the financial penalties for not succeeding.

    5. GlorifiedPlumber*

      Neat! Some thoughts:

      I know of (won’t say how) a woman founded woman driven business that received many millions of dollars of Angel funding followed on by millions of investment by corporate entities. The founder (nice lady) has LOTS of experience in the entrepreneurship world and she’s very nice and I’ve generally found her pretty chatty about her experience, she might be willing to talk to you (cold call, go for it, didn’t hear it from me).

      As well, not listed there, but one of the first employees is a remarkable female mechanical engineer who is responsible for much of their current technology status.
      http://www.modumetal.com/about/history/

      Anyways, I am also curious about the 95% of angel funding going to white men, does that bother people? Angel investors… are… old rich dudes, or previous tech industry rich titans who want to play with their money specifically in the CS world. Actual engineering angel investments are very rare. I hear about stats like 95% to white dudes and I wonder who cares… CS is in such a bubble right now.

      I recall an article about how the PERFECT angel candidate was a white dude about to graduate or not quite graduated from Stanford CS who was 20 years old and looked 16 and had lots of charisma. It had nothing to do with the candidates actual ability to perform and more to do with what investors thought looked cool or looked like them vs. any actual belief system.

      Stanford CS is what… 20-25% female now? Was only 20% in 2012…

      http://www.stanforddaily.com/2012/10/19/stanford-cs-department-strives-for-gender-parity/

      I mean… small group of biased individuals (angel investors, old rich dudes or former 1990’s tech dudes) investing in a small subset of current people (baby faced Stanford/MIT/UW CS graduates) in a narrow industry (software ONLY) results in weird statistics…

      Anyways, very interesting! You may want to look at some other avenues for funding that I know very much want to find minority and female led research teams or companies. I am thinking SBIR / DARPA / DOD stuff.

      Good luck!

  3. BRR*

    Background, I’m going to be fired next Friday due to lack of attention to detail. Would it be better if I resigned even though I have nothing concrete lined up? I know I will be giving up unemployment and I already know I will not be receiving a severance (and will not be asked to sign anything either). I can definitely get by without the UI so that’s not a huge factor. If yes, I just don’t know how to go about doing it. The only language I can think of is asking if I can resign (which I know I can because it’s at-will employment).

    Usually I would say to be fired because severance and UI but my current job hunt status is that I have a final round interview next week, I completed a first round interview this week, I completed a skype interview this week (sample work and one more round left in their process), and have two phone interviews that I set up yesterday for next week. While I know none of those are guarantees (and I really understand nothing is a guarantee), that is a fair amount of activity.

    I was thinking I could say something like “I wanted to take some time between jobs” or that “I wanted to take some time to finish my thesis before starting another job (which I do have one to finish)” but am really looking for the advice of my fellow readers. I will not be able to get a stellar reference from my manager, which I think would be the only thing to help defer quitting without anything lined up.

    Thank you everybody for your support through all of this! You have all been such a great resource and and I don’t know what I would have done without you.

    1. Bend & Snap*

      From what I’ve read here, there’s a benefit to resigning if you can get something out of it–a good reference, unemployment, etc.

      I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

    2. Kyrielle*

      I think in your shoes, knowing you can survive it, I would ask whether they would accept your resignation, and also see if they’re willing to negotiate what the reference will be. It sounds like your job hunt is in a good spot.

      I’m not sure whether that’s the *right* answer, just the one I’d lean toward.

    3. Clever Name*

      Assuming you haven’t been fired before, you can answer the “have you ever been fired” question honestly if you quit. I think the “I wanted to finish my thesis” is actually a really valid reason to quit a job. I think you’ll need to be prepared to maybe discuss how the job wasn’t a great fit and you made the decision to quit to focus on writing. Or, if you get a job quickly after you quit, you probably wouldn’t even need to explain why you left with nothing lined up. People really don’t scrutinize dates in resumes terribly much, at least in my experience. I have a 2 year gap in mine when I took some time off to stay home with my son, and while I did explain it in my cover letter when I first went back to work, I didn’t even mention it when I looked for a job a few years after re-entering the workforce and nobody has asked for it. I do have a masters, so maybe they assume that’s when I went to school? Anyway, I’ve been really impressed seeing how you’re handling this. I know I personally would be freaking out, but you seem so matter-of-fact about it. Good luck on your job prospects!

      1. BRR*

        I have been fired before (and yet nobody has asked about that hole in my resume).

        I was thinking because I have a couple irons in the fire versus starting from scratch, when they do a background check I can say that I just resigned in order to get some work in on my thesis before starting the new job.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          But factor in what they’ll hear if they do a reference check with your employer. That means that you’d probably want to either negotiate a good or neutral reference from the employer, and/or acknowledge that it wasn’t a great fit (in addition to the thesis thing).

          1. BRR*

            Thanks for your reply (as well as everybody else’s)! If they call HR, they will just get my position, my first date of employment, and my last date of employment. They will not disclose being on a PIP or slated for termination. I’m praying very hard that one place where I am having a final round next week does a background check soon as I would still be employed and could ask them to call HR to verify versus speaking with my current manager. The hiring manager said she got an offer the day after she interviewed (background check???).

            Now if they call my manager…. She told me that she’ll try to spin things positively but will have to be honest (obviously). I’m not sure how much I believe here though.

    4. Sunflower*

      Sorry I’m not sure what exact place on aam it was but I believe Allison has written a couple posts on the pros/cons of resigning vs being fired. Can you talk to your manager about what she thinks you should do?

      1. BRR*

        She wasn’t sure I could still resign as she has filled out the paperwork to be fired. I currently am waiting for HR’s response.

    5. Karowen*

      Regarding unemployment: I don’t remember where you are, but in SC at least – and I’m assuming in all of the US – if you get fired and you apply for unemployment, your former workplace can fight it. Not all of them do, but I wouldn’t bank on unemployment so I wouldn’t put it as a pro in the fired column. Like others said, it tends to sound better if you can say you resigned and have a good reason for it.

      Sorry you’re going through it!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        In most states, though, you’ll still get unemployment if you were fired for just not being good at your job. They’re more likely to deny it if you were fired for rules violation, absenteeism, malfeasance, or something else very black and white — but “Jane’s work quality wasn’t what we needed” usually doesn’t cut it.

      2. BRR*

        Ugh I wish I put this in the original post. They have already said they would not contest UI and there is no severance so I would not be giving anything up in that regard. It would be me likely giving up UI vs. being able to explain why I left (with a semi-good reason) instead of saying I was just fired during a background check.

    6. Lisa*

      Dont resign. If your job prospects don’t work out, you can file for unemployment in most states even if you were bad at your job. They will fight unemployment if you quit. You have no idea how long you may be out of work for, and why blow through your savings for answering (no, i’ve never been fired before) on some future application system that no one reads anyway cause resumes matter more.

      1. Alma*

        Having been let go (it is ugly even to type) after a really funky PIP (both the VP and Team Mgr were interviewing for outside jobs, so missed touch-base meetings I had requested, and stage 3 was inaccurate and less than half the time it was supposed to be = I had observed all the signs of a merger and was naive enough to think I would be spared) I filed for UI and it was contested. UI delayed payment of benefits 3 mos – and legal aide told me that if I took it to arbitration (in my very red, very severely “let’s cut benefits” state anyway) it was possible that the hearing officer could DENY me UI, and not just have two choices: decide in my favor, or decide in the employer’s favor. Because I couldn’t afford not to get benefits, I didn’t pursue a hearing.

        That was my biggest mistake – seeing the signs of a merger, and staying on. It got to the point that 40 hrs wasn’t enough time to do the travel required between sites and to clients, do the paperwork, and to attend mandatory meetings. Oh, and the time with the clients, too. Ha ha ha! I was set up in a hugely painful way.

    7. JHS*

      Definitely resign! Then you can spin the resignation in some other way, as you mention. You also don’t have to say you’ve been fired, if it’s asked.

      1. JHS*

        As a follow up re: the unemployment aspect. I can’t speak for your state, but in my state, if you resign under threat of termination (as here) unemployment views it as constructive termination meaning you still qualify for unemployment. If you just resign out of the blue for no reason, that would be a “voluntary resignation” which generally gets you denied unemployment–not your case here. With regard to terminations, in my state you are denied unemployment if you are terminated due to willful misconduct and “attention to detail” does not qualify so you would still be eligible for unemployment.

        Please do yourself a favor and call the unemployment office in your state and see if there is an advocate who can walk you through how this works in your state.

        2. Stephanie*

          My former state (VA) accepted constructive discharge (i.e., quitting before you were or instead of being fired) as a valid reason for UI. You may be denied initially and then have to contest it. I would just collect all your documents (like the PIP and maybe the final thing from HR saying they were firing you) in case you have to do a hearing.

        3. Liane*

          These people can be great. One of the staffers in my state was so helpful, that I called her back later to thank her.
          And good luck!

    8. Mimmy*

      I’ve been following your situation, and just wanted to wish you the best. I’m sorry this job didn’t work out, but I hope the next one–whatever it may be–is a better fit.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Me, three! Borrowing from Simon and Garfunkel again, “they say the darkest night, there’s a light beyond”. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves entirely from one situation before the next new and better situaton reveals itself. Not fair, but it can go this way.

      2. F.*

        BRR, I have nothing to add as far as advice, but I have also been following your story and want to add that you will come out of this just fine. I know every time I’ve had to leave a job, I’ve always found something even better, and I imagine you will, too. Best wishes in your job search!

        1. BRR*

          Thank you :). I have so many things active right now it’s really a bit overwhelming (now if only they had started months ago).

      3. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I’ve been following, too, and I just want to offer my sympathies and encouragement. So much of job success is about fit, and I can attest to that from recent personal experience. I left a job that I was great at, where [mostly] everyone loved me, to a job where I couldn’t seem to do anything right. I left that job after only eight months, and I’m in a job in another university department. Being back on campus has really driven home to me how very suited my personality and work style were to the culture and expectations of the other department, even though both departments are units of the same university. This department is very stickler-ish and regimented, whereas the other one was more, “Let’s see how far we can push the boundaries of the rules without actually breaking any.”

        TL;DR — I wish you the best in finding that job where your natural personality and work-style inclinations are a simple and easy fit!

      4. TootsNYC*

        I also want to say–good luck!

        This is such a tough time, I would imagine. There will be brighter days–just hold on.

        Well, keep swimming, but it seems that you’re doing that.

        Also, I wanted to point out: if your manager says she’ll try to put a positive spin on it, that means something good about you–it means she knows you tried, and that there isn’t ill will.

    9. Loquelic Iteritas*

      Just a thought: could you talk to your current employer and make a deal like: you’ll resign now if they won’t contest your request for UI (if indeed you find yourself needing to make such a request)? Admittedly this might require you being more open than you’d like to be about your job-search.

      Or, perhaps you could negotiate for a good reference?

      Otherwise – it’s a gamble until you’ve actually got a job offer in-hand. But life is full of risk, and you don’t sound like you’re being foolish here. You asked about how to even bring this up with your employer – I think a short resignation letter is all that is needed. But if I were you, I think I’d try to see if I could negotiate something (which would perhaps be a good way to start discussion on the topic).

      Good luck on this. This is just me, but “lack of attention to detail”? I used to get ding’ed for that on the standardized Iowa Basics tests I had to take back in grade school. I’d score 99% percentile on everything else but my inability to fill out forms quickly and accurately would drag my overall score down. I’ll tell you what one of my counselors told me, back then: “this is bullshit, don’t worry about it.”

      1. BRR*

        I know for sure I’m being fired and my last day will be in one week and they know I’m job hunting. They have also said they will not contest UI. My thought is I can resign/ have a semi-good excuse as to why, I’m not starting my search from scratch, and UI isn’t that much. So in exchange for being able to say I resigned, I just wave UI.

        I told a very trusted coworker and his response was “this is f!*@#$@ BS.”

        1. Wilton Businessman*

          That is not hard to explain. I was let go because they found out I was job hunting. As long as it’s the truth, I wouldn’t blink twice at that as an employer.

          1. BRR*

            No, I’m looking because I’m going to be fired. At my 60 day check in it was decided that my PIP wasn’t going to end successfully.

    10. Wilton Businessman*

      I would give them resignation with 1 month notice. If they take it, you’ve got one more month of $$. If they still fire you, you collect unemployment.

      Unemployment insurance is a benefit to you that your employer has paid for. Use it. Even if you sock it away for a rainy day, take it.

  4. Exit Strategy*

    I’ll try to keep this long story short. I’m an administrative employee for a government department that is working to find new owners for vacant properties and eliminate the blight in the city. Our department was set up by the mayor five years ago. This is my first full-time job, been working here a year and a half. I just started firing up my search for a new job because I really dislike working here.

    Well the mayor of our city recently announced that they’re not running for re-election next year. As our dept was set up by the mayor directly, there’s a chance that the new mayor could fold up our dept. There’s no way of knowing how likely that possibility is but it’s definitely there, though even if it was the first thing the new mayor did in office, it wouldn’t happen until January 2017 at the earliest.

    As an admin worker, my contract basically says that I wouldn’t lose my job; I’d just be transfered to a new dept. But even without all this going on, I’ve already been working on moving onto the next job.

    My question is this: given that I don’t have a long track-record to my name, being first full-time job, should I exaggerate the potential of my department closing and use that as my reason for leaving or should I stick with what’s the 100% truth, that I’m looking for new opportunities and going in a different direction from my job? To me, saying that my dept might be gone and I’m looking to get out before that happens sounds better than the vauge but true ‘wanting to do something different’ reasoning.

    Thoughts? Thanks!

    1. J.B.*

      Why would it be an exaggeration? Just say honestly that you have learned x and that you now want to move on, you do see some uncertainty with the continued future of the program. Perfectly reasonable.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I’ve left contracting jobs because it wasn’t certain if the contract would be renewed. I think companies understand that you’d be proactive in the face of uncertainty without needing to exaggerate.

    3. TCO*

      I think wanting to move on after 1.5 years in your first “real” job is entirely acceptable in many sectors. Concerns about your job ending/changing in the future are a good supplement, but it’s fine to just explain that you’re looking for a better fit. But you need to be able to explain a little more clearly what you’re looking for in a new job, not just “wanting to do something different.” Will you be able to clearly and positively state what you want, such as, “I’ve found that my strengths and interest are in X, while my current role involves 80% Y?”

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      I’m entirely sure we are in the same city. I would stick with looking for new opportunities. If you are looking locally everyone is going to know why you are looking.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you are looking at other government jobs, people in that arena are very well acquinted with what a change in leadership means.

      Echoing Totes here, if you apply for local jobs you will not have to explain much, they will know why you are there. Anyone locally who tries to make you squrim through an interview probably is not someone you want to work for anyway.

    7. TootsNYC*

      You don’t need to apologize for wanting a new job after a year and a half in your FIRST position.

      You just want a new job–more responsibilities, more money, different direction, whatever.

      It’s your first job–nobody is really expecting you to stay for a really long time. And a year is basic, so a year and a half is fine. You won’t come across as flightly or irresponsible.

  5. katamia*

    I posted last week about how I was having trouble adjusting to my new job, and things have gotten worse. I’m still miserable, but I’m sensing performance issues on the horizon. I’m zoning out/getting distracted almost constantly (I probably spent 3 hours total unintentionally staring at the wall today), and unless I can find a way to fix this I’m either going to be missing deadlines or turning in seriously subpar work to make said deadlines very soon. (I’m still in the probation period, and they gradually ramp up the daily workload, so time hasn’t been a problem until this week. And I’m still not doing a full load every day, so there are going to be more increases. *sigh*)

    I meet with my trainer once a week and I’ll bring this up with him too, but I don’t think he has good time management skills (he stays very late every day when most people don’t). And, actually, mine are quite good when I have full control over my schedule–I managed much higher workloads without a problem when I was freelancing and didn’t have a “traditional” work day. But at this job I just. keep. getting. distracted.

    I was diagnosed with ADD a few months ago and I do have medication that helps a bit, but it’s illegal here (it was prescribed in the US, where it’s not illegal, but I moved to another country where it is, and tbh I’m not sure how I got it through customs), so it’s not a long-term solution even though I still have a few pills left. I’m trying to get up and walk around more, which also helps a little bit, but it’s just not enough (and also I need to be spending time working, not wandering). What can I do to focus better?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      That sucks ADHD meds aren’t legal where you are! I started going to DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy) a couple months ago mainly to help manage my chronic anxiety, but I’m also starting to learn to apply it at work to deal with the ADHD. It’s still a struggle, but if I use the mindfulness skills to focus on one task at a time, and acknowledge the other stuff flying through my head (including all the other tasks that are undone) as distractions, it helps me a bit. I break things down into discrete subtasks whenever possible and don’t have my entire to-do list visible while I try to focus on one item. Doing my best to get a good night’s sleep and eat frequent small meals and snacks helps too. I try to figure out what days and times I am best able to focus and plan on doing the stuff that requires the most concentration then, and the mindless stuff at the worst times. It’s still hard. Good luck!

      1. katamia*

        This job is basically a “one task at a time” job, unfortunately. I’ve always done better when I could switch between two or three tasks whenever I was feeling distracted so at least it was productive distraction. But in this job there’s really nowhere productive for that distraction to go, if that makes sense.

      2. Lily Puddle*

        (1) I love your handle/sign-in/posting name/whatever it’s called. I assume you are referencing “It’s a thingy! A fiendish thingy!”

        (2) At first glance, I thought your comment said you were going to diabolical behavioral therapy. You had my attention.

    2. Kyrielle*

      Could you see a doctor where you are and find out if you have options for treating ADD that will be legal where you are?

    3. pieces of flair*

      There are lots of different kinds of ADHD meds, some of which are not stimulants. Have you looked into other options?

      Other than getting up frequently, does it help if you drink lots of coffee or chew gum/suck on mints? Is there something about the nature of the work itself that makes you zone out or do you think it’s mostly neurological?

      1. katamia*

        In the US, I drank Mountain Dew (don’t like coffee), but they don’t sell that here either.

        I think it’s the environment and hours more than anything else, honestly. If I were freelancing and getting the same amount of work but it didn’t matter what time of day I did it, I wouldn’t be having so much trouble. I had much heavier workloads when I was freelancing and could focus much better than I am now. I’m a hardcore night person (used to go to bed between 5am and 6am normally), so I’ve had to switch my whole sleep schedule too. I don’t think it’s the work, just the circumstances in which the work needs to take place, if that makes sense.

        1. Ad Astra*

          Is 5-hour Energy available where you are? That has become the standby for adults with ADHD who can’t get their medicine for whatever reason.

          1. Stephanie*

            5-Hour energy is essentially a mega dose of B-complex (specifically B-12). You can also just take that. Be careful, as too much can affect your sleep.

        2. aliascelli*

          Yikes, Mt Dew is how I survive too. :)

          One thing that works for me is to schedule time in for a short, short burst of exercise – we have a gym in the building so it’s convenient, but something like a walk around the block if available would work as well. I concentrate much better when I’ve been moving for a few minutes.

      1. A Jane*

        There are lots of legal stimulant ADD/ADHD meds in the UK (my 8 year old daughter is diagnosed and takes these).

      2. katamia*

        Internet research is giving me very unclear responses on whether they’re all illegal or not. I think ADD is thought of primarily as a “kid thing” here, so while I’m open to going to a doctor (although I don’t know how easy it is to get an appointment), I don’t know how easy it’ll be to get anything prescribed if it does turn out that some are legal.

        1. Nashira*

          Could your diagnosing doctor from the US provide a formal letter confirming your diagnosis? I know the doc you may see in $country might not speak English, but if they do, this could help you be taken seriously and get you hooked up with legal tx.

          1. TootsNYC*

            Your doc in America might be able to use professional organizations to locate a useful doc in your country. There are links inside fields…

    5. Jessica*

      Yikes, that really sucks. I’ve always had a problem with focusing on my work too. What helps me is listening to longer podcasts at a low volume for background noise. I get my multitasking/distraction fix, but they’re enough in the background that I’m still getting work done. And you could give the Pomodoro time management technique a try too. I like it because I have a problem starting, but if I say to myself ‘just do five minutes of work’, that five minutes often turns into 45+ minutes. Outside of work, are you exercising/eating a balanced diet/getting good sleep? If not, that might be something to focus on too.

      1. katamia*

        I listen to music, which also helps (even made a YouTube playlist for work, lol). I’ll try Pomodoro and see how it works, although starting is less of an issue for me–I run out of steam very quickly. I like to say I’m a sprinter, not a marathoner, and this job is heavily marathon-oriented.

        My health outside of work is not great, tbh. This is my first time working a traditional work day in years after freelancing and under/unemployment, and it’s just exhausting to be stuck in the same place for hours on end. (“The same place” being the whole office, not my seat–I don’t have to answer the phone or anything, so I can get up basically whenever I want.) I don’t even have the energy to exercise on weekends even though I want to and know I’ll feel better if I do. I think it’s just taking all my weekly energy to try to focus, and I’m not even doing well with that.

        1. BRR*

          As a fellow ADD’r you might try exercising before work. I know that’s tough but it might help particularly if it’s before.

          1. Ad Astra*

            I have ADHD as well and I second the exercising before work. It can be really difficult to get yourself out of bed and off to the gym (or wherever), but it will make a big difference.

            Try sleeping in your gym clothes, filling your water bottle the night before, and laying out your shoes, socks, iPod, keys, etc. so you don’t waste time tracking that stuff down in the morning.

        2. Wanna-Alp*

          You could experiment with sounds as well as music.

          One track I find very helpful with focus is one of thunderstorm noises; another is a rainforest noise (you can find such tracks on YouTube).

    6. Vorthys*

      I would never think to give medical advice, but my experience suggests that it is worthwhile to investigate alternatives to stimulants. I have ADHD and I’ve been able to get by with wellbutrin (a nonstimulant that may or may not be banned in your country) , but it’s a serious conversation to have with a doctor to see if it might work for you. The other things that help me are strict, intensive exercise early in the day and immediate documentation of new information. The more I hold to routine, the easier it is to keep my symptoms under control.

      Actually, even on stimulants, those last things are pretty important to me.

      1. katamia*

        I’m really leery of antidepressants because I know so many people who have had horrible side effects while on them (and I’ve had horrible side effects taking extremely mild medications that almost no one has problems with, so I’m sure I’d get some doozies if I actually went on an antidepressant–I have depression too, so it’s something I’ve looked into before).

        I’ll try the exercise thing and see if that helps, although I’m awful in the morning so I hope I can actually make myself get out of bed earlier. Do you find that there’s a minimum amount of exercise you need to do for it to “work”?

        1. Cass*

          For my case, I find the amount of exercise needed to get the effect is really breaking a sweat. (I alternate walking and running on a treadmill.) Hardly scientific though, I just know when I kind of half-ass it walking and slowly jogging it doesn’t do as much.

          1. Bea W*

            Same – I really need to break a sweat, and it has to be pretty vigorous for probably a good 30 minutes, definitely not less than 20. If I can be active for upwards of an hour, that’s idea, but it doesn’t last a whole day, just a few hours.

        2. Vorthys*

          Wellbutrin isn’t a typical antidepressant and I suggest talking to a professional about its mechanism if you do get curious, but I totally respect your feelings on the matter.

          I do an intensive thirty minutes every day at the same exact time, and do all of my most difficult work shortly after. If I can sneak in exercise at lunch, even better. The trick there is getting those crucial neurotransmitters out in force.

          Bonus: once you’ve forced this long enough, the sleep habits thing solves itself. On the other hand, it is an every day thing. Taking weekends off will make it very hard to develop the habits, though don’t make missing a day discourage you.

          I am both a naturally slothful and late sleeping person, so I get how hard it is. I think it’s worth trying for at least a month before making a decision whether it actually is helping or not.

          1. afiendishthingy*

            I was briefly prescribed wellbutrin to help combat sexual side effects of celexa. Didn’t help with my concentration or the celexa side effects, and made me more anxious to boot. But it’s crazy how everyone responds to psychopharmaceuticals differently.

            Sleep, though – I’m not generally a good sleeper but when I am manage to be consistent with it it makes a HUGE difference in my focus.

        3. Keri*

          I have ADHD as well. I’m currently only on stimulants, but for a while was doing well on a combo of stimulants and a non-stimulant ADHD drug called Straterra. That might be worth asking your doc about. Here in the US, I believe it is the only ADHD drug that is approved for adults. It’s expensive and I know quite a few people dislike it, but once I gave it a chance it I found it to be helpful and actually miss it now that my insurance will no longer pay for it.
          Good luck to you!

        4. Carrie...*

          I’m going to be honest… you are making excuses. You are not healthy. You are going down the road of losing your job. You need to take some serious steps.

          You admit you have depression as well as ADHD, and have waited until you have almost run out of ADHD meds with no plan.

          You can do this. Time for treatment. BTW – Many people worry themselves into side effects when it comes to meds, but these days a good psychiatrist can find something that can work for you. Start low (dose) and increase slow. There are options. You just need to decide.

          Stop making excuses.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I am not so sure what OP is saying are excuses. She has a couple things going on at the same time and she seems to be exercising caution. Additionally, she is a country that is not her home country. I know that would make me think very carefully about how to proceed.

        5. Mreasy*

          Hi! I have depression/anxiety/ADHD & due to prior bad experience with meds, hesitated for years before considering them again (after 15 years without). But things had gotten so much worse than I had realized, & when I finally relented & went back to medication, I found that the available drugs were less problematic than those in the past. Not to try to shill for Big Pharma, but you can always stop taking something if you have trouble. Even if certain chemicals in meds may have deleterious effects on your body (my fear for years), my acupuncturist put it this way: stress definitely does. Panic, anxiety, & depressive episodes all flood your brain with chemicals that science knows do harm in large doses over time. To me, I finally realized it was worth the risk of trying something unknown. I still have issues, but things have improved so much that I can only wish I’d done it sooner. It could be worth just trying something for the first couple months intro period, particularly given you have a known condition you’re unable to legally treat. Good luck.

    7. misspiggy*

      I wonder whether you could split some of your ‘one task at a time’ work into ‘three parallel tasks at once’?

      If your tasks won’t break down into subtasks in that way, could you give yourself competing non-work tasks during the same time period, so you could cycle through them along with your work task? Like read x useful thing online, do work task, plan recipe for tonight, work task, work on plan to get more appropriate job… Even if it sounds like you could be doing less work, if it stops you drifting off it may mean that you actually get more work done.

    8. Koko*

      I am a fellow ADHD sufferer who no longer has access to medication. Focus is like a muscle – you can train your ability to focus and make it stronger, even without medication. Pardon the length, but here are my tips!

      #1 Break Down Your Goals: Sometimes I just look at my to-do list and sort of freeze up at how big/complicated some of the tasks feel and I instinctively pull up my browser and start procrastinating because I’m overwhelmed. It’s also worth noting that it took me a while to figure out that what’s I was doing/why I was doing it. The emotional reaction was happening so quickly that I wasn’t even consciously aware until another ADD sufferer mentioned it and I realized it was true for me too. And I also realized that I didn’t get that urge to procrastinate when I had lots of quick, 5-minute small tasks on my list to accomplish. Once I understood that, I realized that by subdividing a project into smaller, quicker tasks, it makes it easier to tackle. So for each project, break it down into its smallest components – to use a really simple example, if your task is to mail a book you would break it down to: 1) Get book from supply closet. 2) Write letter to enclose with book. 3) Print letter. 4) Put book and letter into box. 5) Print postage. 6) Afix postage to box. 7) Schedule carrier pickup online. 8) Carry package to reception for pickup.

      #2 Map Out Your Goals: My to-do list is broken down by day of the week going into the future about 7 (calendar) days (5 business days). So for what I need to get done in the next week, I map out what tasks I’m going to get done each day to stay on track. This also has the advantage of helping you realize sooner if you have unrealistic deadlines, when you realize that what you’ve planned to do on Wednesday is way more than you can realistically do in one day, especially when you have 3 hours’ worth of meetings that day. In addition to this, each morning you should look at your list for the day and sub-divide it further, so you know what you have to have done by lunch to stay on track for the day. Maybe even break the day into three parts if that’s easier. The purpose of this is so that you don’t slack off all morning and then become panic-stricken at 3pm when you realize you’ll never get everything done in the next 2 hours, and end up procrastinating as a reflexive response to the panic.

      #3 Reduce or Eliminate Distractions: This may be harder for you since you are ADD rather than ADHD and you mention that you’re staring at a wall when you’re distracted, not that you’re surfing or doing other things instead. But there are browser apps like StayFocusd that you can use to limit your non-work browsing. You can either block sites entirely or set a daily limit on how many minutes you can be on the site per day (I do this for AAM!).

      #4 Chunking Tasks: ADD/ADHD sufferers famously have trouble with task-switching, so the more you can chunk your tasks to work in uninterrupted blocks on one thing at a time, the better. Incoming email can be a BIG distraction, even though it’s ostensibly work-related. I found it helpful to disable the little preview pop-up that Outlook presents whenever a new email comes in, and only check my email about once per hour and spend a few minutes processing them in blocks, rather than constantly interrupting what I’m doing to respond to email and then losing time on task-switching If that’s something you can realistically do in your role, I’d recommend it, as task-switching is something that ADD/ADHD sufferers also famously have trouble with. (There is also a hack-y way to set up Outlook so that only messages marked urgent/high-priority will trigger the preview pop-up, if you are worried about missing time-sensitive messages and you can rely on your colleagues to use the priority flag appropriately. Link will follow in a reply to this comment.)

      Finally, if you are in a culture with a lot of meetings, it helps to reserve at least a 1-hour block on your calendar every day where you are marked as Busy even though you don’t have any meetings, to preserve some time every day to work uninterrupted. (Ideally it’d be 2-3 hours but in a lot of jobs you just don’t have that luxury.)

      2. katamia*

        Thanks, this is useful! It’s not something I knew a lot about before I was diagnosed, so I’m still trying to figure out how to put the vague stuff I know into actionable steps. This helps, both for this job and for possible future jobs.

        We have no meetings here, basically. I meet once a week with my trainer for half an hour and some of the senior people who do what I do (and my trainer has been making noises about me joining that senior group sooner rather than later, although we’ll see if he still says that after this crappy week–I already had to let a few details slide so I could turn them in on time, although they weren’t quite to the “officially substandard” level, just to the “below the standard to which I hold myself” level) have one hour-long meeting a week, but other than that, nothing. I’m really glad about that, but having all that uninterrupted time to work kinda makes me feel worse about struggling because I can’t blame meetings or chatty coworkers or anything. It’s all just me not doing what I need to be doing.

        We use Gmail instead of Outlook, but I found it really helpful to just close my email and only check it a few times–in the morning, before and after lunch, and near the end of the day. (The only emails I get that have any time limit at all are “If you don’t reply within 18 hours, this project might go to someone else,” so I definitely check it often enough to catch those.)

    9. Mike C.*

      Is there someone you can talk to at work about receiving some special accommodations to help? An EAP of sorts perhaps? Or is ADD just completely dismissed in this particular country?

    10. AnonAcademic*

      I highly recommend trying the Pomodoro Technique to reduce distraction. On a good day I actually enjoy even menial tasks because pomodoro creates time pressure (you work in 20-30 min blocks, then take a 5 min break, and after 4 cycles of this you take a longer break). I find myself pushing to see how much I can get done in one 20-25 minute pomodoro. Using a timer and tracking tasks also helps quantify distractions and therefore reduced them.

  6. Anoning it up*

    I posted this awhile but was hoping for more responses…

    I had an awful meeting with my managers recently where they aired some expected, but not really accurate, concerns about my work. None of it was about my work product, but it was mostly about how much I was working. Basically, “You do good work but you’re not doing enough of it. Please work more.” The thing is, I’ve been killing myself recently and really can’t fit in any more work. I’m exempt, don’t get overtime, but I’m routinely working 70+ hour weeks. I just can’t do more without compromising my health, safety, and happiness. I’m in a business where over-work is the norm, but even by the high standard for over-work of my industry, I’m already doing quite a lot.

    Regardless, they apparently expect more, and told me so pretty clearly. They also said “We’re not going to fire you, but you should start looking for another job.” Here is my question: I’ve been looking. For a while. Nothing has bit yet. I’m obviously going to ramp up my search, but at what point do I quit this gig without something else lined up? in the meantime, do I go on doing what I’m doing? Do I try to kill myself to get more work done to make them happy? I have no idea. Please help! They keep asking me to work more and more (weekends and holidays) while at the same time treating me like I have no future here, and its is infuriating. I just want to quit without anything else lined up right now, just so I can get some time off. What should I do?

    1. J.B.*

      I see no downside to you in cutting back to a more reasonable schedule. They’ve said already they are unhappy, so what? They’ll be more unhappy? I’m not sure I’d quit outright but if you cut back hours and they do fire you you can say in interviews that the workload was such that you can’t get done in 70 hour weeks. Also are others struggling in this way? Are there worker bees who navigate this successfully that can give you advice?

      1. Anoning it up*

        There are other people who they are “happy” with their hours (we bill by the hour) but I’m not sure whats happening with those people. I don’t know if they’re just willing to not have any personal life at all, or if they’re billing unethically, or what. I promise that I am at or above the industry standard, I am no slacker – but the things my coworkers appear to be doing which makes my bosses happy seems super-human. There are other people struggling, too. I know of a bunch of other people looking for other jobs right now for the same/similar reasons, but I’m the only one they’re actively trying to force out, I think.

        1. Cat*

          I’ve come to the conclusion that a lot of billable hours are falsified. I work somewhere where people are obsessive about not overstating billable hours. The hours we are in the office vs. the hours people at places where they routinely bill insane amounts of billable hours are in the office are not enough account for the difference in billables.

          I mean, I don’t think that people are blatant about falsifying billable hours. Nor do I think that it’s even particularly conscious much of the time. I just think the pressure builds and your standards for accurate time keeping get lower and lower, tasks are stretched out longer and longer, until ultimately, a lot of the hours written down are kind of fictional.

          I think that if you work somewhere where that’s going on, it might account for the difference and might be a good reason to get out.

          1. afiendishthingy*

            Yikes… this rings pretty true for me. In my role we hear a lot of “We need to bill more hours” and also a lot of “Don’t bill for this task or this task or this task, that’s fraud, you still have to complete these tasks though”. My billable hours are ALWAYS low, and while some of that is due to poor time management on my part, a lot of it is just that I HAVE to do a lot of nonbillable stuff. I’ve only gotten one “Let’s try to bring this up a bit” email months ago and I have, although still not to the target, and I’m fairly confident my job is not in danger. Still, almost every staff meeting has an announcement on the theme of either “bill more hours” or “I’ve noticed people billing for nonbillable stuff, please stop”. So I feel the pressure and yes, my standards for accurate time on actual billable activities are… looser than they were. It sucks.

        2. misspiggy*

          So is it that they want you to do more billable work? In which case why wouldn’t they be training you in how to make your work more billable… If they are simply jerks who think your face doesn’t fit and want you out of there, why give them the satisfaction of leaving before you have something else lined up? Even if that carries a risk of firing, I’d have thought most sane employers wouldn’t be put off by someone fired for not working 70+hour weeks. Cutting back your hours to allow you to do some proper job searching, and leaving when you get something else, would make sense to me.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      70+ hour weeks? That’s horrible. I’m so sorry. I hope you find something soon. I can’t believe they have the nerve to say you should be working more.

      1. J*

        Honestly it sounds like the output isn’t enough, and that OP takes too much time to do it. It is possible to work very hard and very long hours and not get enough done.

        1. Melissa*

          That’s true, but it’s also possible for employers to have impossibly high standards of what can be accomplished in X hours.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Is it possible that they aren’t asking you to work more hours, but rather asking you to accomplish more? I mean 70 hours is nuts. I think 55 is nuts. But I wonder if they are expecting you to produce more than you are within that time. If you think there’s a window here, you might try asking some follow-up questions to see if there are things they expect you to do that you aren’t doing. That is, if you decide to stick around while you look.

      1. Colette*

        Yeah, I’m wondering if they want to feel like you’re working more rather than wanting you to work more hours. Do the people they’re happy with spend more time talking about how busy they are?

        1. Anoning it up*

          Yes, they spend a lot of time talking about how busy they are. I tried to dig into what I could do to make them happy, but their answer was just “work until the work is done, and then we will give you more work, and then work until that is done, too.” I confess things have occasionally slipped deadline wise, but I think that is more to do with the volume of work I’m being asked to do and my inability to juggle it all when I’m exhausted. When I started talking about ways that I could maybe communicate my workload better and adjust priorities so that we’re all on the same page, etc, they just said “no. work until it is all done.”

          2. RVA Cat*

            Are the people they are happy with maybe lowering their standards on what constitutes “done”? If they’re able to do that much more work, it could be very much a quality vs. quantity thing. Of course, if you do that I’m guessing then they’ll jump on you about errors….

    4. JHS*

      I’m really sorry about your situation, but it sounds like you’ve missed the boat here and I’m guessing you either work in big law (like me) or in accounting. They already told you to look for another job. In a law firm that means it’s over. There is nothing you can do at this point except do what they already told you to do–find someplace else. They are being nice to you by letting you continue to earn a paycheck until you find something, so I would focus on that. Working more isn’t going to help you here. This is a very common way at a big law firm to nicely fire someone and allow them to preserve their reputation.

      1. JHS*

        Also to clarify for the other commenters here. If OP works in a law firm, management is not saying he needs to work MORE, but likely is saying he is not working efficiently. Efficiency is pretty much the most important thing that matters at a law firm, which is how fast you can produce the work required of you. I read it as they are saying that other people are accomplishing more in the same time that he is billing. For instance, if you assign someone a memorandum, there is an expectation of how long it should take based on the subject matter, how much research is required, etc. So, let’s say that it may OP is assigned a memo that is supposed to take between 5-10 hours, but OP takes 25 hours and produces an excellent product. OP is working hard and giving a good product, but you can’t bill the client for the 25 hours, so in essence, even though OP is working really hard and giving a good product, he is wasting 15 hours. As a lawyer, you can’t sustain that loss in hours. If that happens continually, you will just not make it in a law firm. It sounds like OP is misinterpreting the need to PRODUCE more for actually needing to work additional hours, which may not be the case.

        1. Anoning it up*

          You’re right that its law, but its not biglaw (we’re boutique). While efficiency might be part of it, the message definitely was hours – people are billing more hours than me and that makes me look not dedicated. Most of our cases are contingency, so its not like they’re discounting my hours to the client. I might be able to be more efficient (who can’t?), but what they told me is that they think I’m a 9-5er and that I’m not willing to put in the time required. Which is nuts given my billing for this year, I assure you.

          1. JHS*

            Well then they sound like they just suck! I agree we could all be more efficient and there’s always someone billing more. Are you meeting your target?

            1. Anoning it up*

              We don’t have an official target, but when I started I was told the unofficial goal was 1850. I’m on track for 2100 at the moment, but other people are clearly billing more than 2100 and that’s what I’m being compared against. When I asked “if not 2100, what should I shoot for?” I just got a blank stare and the answer was a vague “more.”

              1. JHS*

                Jesus that is such crap. Other people are definitely fudging their hours due to unreasonable expectations of them, making it look worse that you aren’t doing that and making a vicious cycle. I bet they are just running their timers from the minute they get in until the minute they go home. This firm sounds toxic and they are doing you a favor by telling you to find something else. I’m really sorry.

                1. JHS*

                  I want to make clear for non-lawyers that even for white shoe firms on Wall Street, 2100 hours is at the very least extremely respectable if not considered a lot. The only people billing 2500 hours are those who have their timers on ALL the time or if you are billing in several time zones (yes that’s a thing–you can bill 30 hours a day that way).

                2. RVA Cat*

                  The vicious cycle re: fudging hours kind of reminds of doping in sports….

                  I wonder how they would react if someone billed more than 2,232 hours per quarter? (24 x 31 x 3)

                3. Cat*

                  Yeah, I always think it’s worth noting in these conversations that back in the ’50s, the ABA said that a reasonable billing target for lawyers was 1,300 a year, which assumed a 5-day work week and a half day on Saturdays. It would leave time for professional development, service, and mentoring other lawyers.

                  There aren’t any more hours in the day now, and there are lawyers billing 2,800 a year at some firms. That’s . . . unlikely to result from meticulous time keeping practices, in my opinion. There’re those odd people who don’t need much sleep and there are people working themselves into the ground but by and large . . . .

                4. Melissa*

                  @JHS: Yeah, I’m not in law, but I just divided 2100 by 50 weeks and got 42. So that’s 42 hours a week of only billable stuff, not including the non-billable stuff, which I’m assuming could take an additional 20-30 hours a week. That sounds insane enough already to sustain on a regular basis; if other are routinely billing above that there has got to be some fudging going on.

              2. Alma*

                Would you be able to “shadow” for one day someone who Is Worthy in the practice’s estimation? Ask questions, look for techniques, etc. It is worth asking for.

        2. Anoning it up*

          Oh and I’m certainly rushing to get out, that message is loud and clear to me. I just don’t know how to act in the meantime :-/

          1. JHS*

            From what I’ve seen, people generally don’t focus on anything but the job search and helping out on other stuff where they can. I would definitely just focus on getting a new job ASAP. Have you reached out to any recruiters?

            1. Anoning it up*

              I have, but they don’t call me back! I have pretty good credentials, I think, but I’m in a really competitive market geographically and the legal market is… well you know, I’m sure. If you know of someone good, I’d love to touch base! I’m not sure how to stay anonymous and get in touch though.

              The problem with checking out and focusing on my job hunt is that they keep assigning me important things. It is so frustrating, because I can’t bail on these projects or my clients will suffer, so while I’m doing the bare minimum at the moment to let me keep my integrity and represent my clients, my bare minimum is still over 60 hrs/week and I’m just too exhausted to job hunt and burnt out and stuff to be a real human.

                1. Anoning it up*

                  I fear it would be too identifying to say too much but my focus area is similar to yours. If you want I just made this gmail address – anoning61 AT gmail . com (without all the spaces and using the sign, etc) and maybe we can touch base?

                2. JHS*

                  Understood and no worries at all. Depending on what year you are, you could definitely circle back to your law school’s career services department. I don’t know if you ever found them helpful, but mine have been helpful in the past. Also, do you have any law school professors or earlier career mentors (e.g. judges from a clerkship?) who you can turn to for advice or who can network on your behalf? Is there anyone in the firm that you trust who can give you advice–maybe one nice partner? What about people you may have been a summer associate for or who you interned with? I would reach out to literally everyone you know who might be able to help you in this situation and come up with an official story for why you’re leaving. Maybe you say you want to switch to management-side work or you want to change areas of the law or try something new or go in house or get a government position?

                  I think it is hard if you want to stay plaintiff-side, because those positions are much more limited and they do tend to go to boutique firms. Do you know anyone at any of your firm’s main competitors that you could meet for coffee to discuss a potential move?

                  I would really, really try networking. I’m surprised on the recruiting side that you haven’t had any luck, but I don’t know your market and maybe things are more limited.

                  In any case, I wish you good luck in getting out of where you are! I would say, as hard as it is, don’t leave without something else lined up. Lawyers are notorious for having zero understanding of situations like this….and you want to have continuity.

                3. Anoning it up*

                  Yeah, I think that was my initial trouble was that I was too limited in what I’ve been looking for. I’ve been applying since February for something else that I thought would be a good fit – I’ve been lowering my standards to “better” fit recently, which is just about anywhere at all at the point. I never really wanted to go biglaw because I didn’t want the billable hour commitment/pressure, but given my current situation, I’d definitely be willing to go to one of the “kinder” firms. I think I could be happy working the same hours as I am with a friendlier team and less weird crap, though ideally I would like to cut back to less (like actually working 1850 would be awesome, though probably not doable, I know).

                  I don’t know anyone anywhere, except where I summered, and I am the worst networker but I am trying to get better at that. It sounds like you think that may be a better strategy than scouring the web and applying to everything under the sun that I might reasonably be qualified for, so I think I’ll make a plan to do more of that, as much as it hurts and exhausts me, it sounds like it might be the better way to go.

                5. Anoning it up*

                  Meh, I’ve decided to give up on staying too anonymous – so what if I’m outed, so what, they told me to leave anyway. I’ve been plaintiff side labor and employment in DC but I’m willing to switch sides. Have 2-3 years experience. If you know a good recruiter or any good opportunities I’m all ears.

              2. JHS*

                Definitely try networking–that’s really the way to go in my opinion. Also don’t be afraid of big firms! A lot of bigger firms don’t even care about hours that much. First of all, my firm only has a target of 1800 for my office (some of the bigger offices have 1950). However, they mean it. I literally hit 1810 every year and still get a bonus. Also my group is considered more demanding and everyone is expected to hit the target, but some groups people actually don’t hit the targets and are fine! I doubt they get a bonus but they don’t seem to even care. A lot of big firms don’t even have a target and just care about hours for bonuses and being productive. I actually think some of the smaller firms can be much harder about hours because they have a harder time keeping up financially and try to work associates to the bone to make up for it.

                1. Anoning it up*

                  You are my new favorite internet person, thank you for your help and kind words. If nothing else its a good reminder that Im not lazy or crazy, and I have been feeling both those things recently.

                2. JHS*

                  Oops I posted this above but meant to post it here:

                  Aww thank you. I really do wish you the best of luck. That place sounds so incredibly toxic.

                3. College Career Counselor*

                  Ran out of nesting replies. Sounds like Anoning it up is in a terrible work environment with a fair amount of workplace gaslighting (ie, “work more, everyone’s doing it but YOU” and “the standard we gave you to meet isn’t the REAL standard”). There may be efficiency issues, but that’s not the root of the problem. If you google thepeoplestherapist DOT com (the therapist is a former wall street lawyer) you may find some articles that are helpful in that “you’re not alone” kind of way.

                4. Not So NewReader*

                  JHS and CCC, you are awesome folks. Anoning, let us know how you are doing. I hope you find sane people very soon.

    5. AMT*

      They sound completely nuts to me – I’m with the other commenters, keep looking but don’t push to try and work any MORE when it seems pretty clear there isn’t anything you can do to make them happy. I’d actually pull back on the hours to focus more on the job search.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You sound like you are reaching the end of your rope. If it were me, I would have reached it by now, myself. If your finances allow it, give notice and get out of there, before you are too fried to job hunt. As it stands now, I cannot picture when you would have time for job hunting. These people do not appreciate you and do not appreciate your efforts. You could job hunt 40 hours a week and it would be less stressful than what you are doing now. (To me, job hunting 40 hours a week would be a nightmare, but you have a nightmare and a half going on there.)

      I had a funny/odd thing happen. I worked for A. I just happened to go into B one day. I was chatting with one of the bosses, I mentioned that I worked for A. He offered me a job on the spot. There are some people who know what your work day has been like and they know that if you can survive that environment, you will thrive in their environment. This might happen for you, too, once you are actually able to pay attention to your job search and not have to work 70 hours per week.

    7. A New Manager*

      I would want to know very specifically what they want you to do. “More” is very vague and too easy to be subjective when it comes time to determine if the “more” you did was enough or not. Then, ask them for specific feedback on what you need to prioritize and what you can do away with or delegate to someone else to facilitate doing the specific added tasks to fit into your regularly scheduled work week.

  7. The Other Dawn*

    I’m going on my first business trip next week. I’m so excited! I’m in the banking industry and it’s a user conference for the anti-money laundering software we use.

    I have two questions:
    1) I’m wondering what would be acceptable or normal in terms of dress. Since it’s in California, my inclination is to wear dressy capris and a nice top, along with a closed type of sandal.
    2) Any tips from those people that have gone on business trips? And to user conferences specifically?

    1. J.B.*

      If you’re at a conference, layers! It is likely to be freezing inside (sometimes going out in the heat is a nice break). I tend towards dresses and cardigans or nice slacks for conferences. Find out what industry norms are, although women usually have a little more flexibility.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      What part of California? I was in L.A. around this time last year and it fluctuated between hot (90s+) and chilly (mid-50s? I’m from Chicago but I’m still a wimp about cold). If you have the luggage space, bring things to layer with.
      I’ve only been to one conference (with lawyers) and people basically all wore suits. I think you’d want to err on the side of formality.

    3. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

      If this will give you opportunities to network, I would say dress a bit up from business casual. Also hotels and conference centers are notorious for being freezing cold so make sure you have a cardigan/sweater/suit jacket to slip on in case you get cold. Make sure you have comfortable shoes as you will probably be walking quite a bit or bring shoes you can change into once you make it to your destination. I usually keep a bottle of water with me as well to stay hydrated. Enjoy your time there!

    4. Dawn*

      Banking conference everyone is going to be in pretty strict business dress, regardless of the topic. I attended Money2020 last year in Boston (big conference about upcoming tech in the payments/banking industry) and almost everyone was leaning pretty heavily towards conservative business wear.

      Now being that it’s in Cali, I imagine you can be a little more laid back, but I strongly advise you to bring business stuff (pantsuit or dress with jacket and conservative shoes) and then check out what everyone else is wearing on the first day and adjust accordingly (lose the jacket, bring some bright scarves to liven things up, etc).

      Money2020 was my first conference and I felt *even more awkward* because I wasn’t dressed like everyone else. Plus (this is my own experience and I am not speaking for everyone) I feel like as a woman I would have been taken a little more seriously by the men there if I had been in more traditionally conservative dress (and had longer hair but that’s a different story). Not that they didn’t take me seriously, just that they would have taken me MORE seriously. But that’s my own personal feelings on the matter and might not match up with reality.

    5. TCO*

      I echo others’ suggestions: layers and comfortable shoes! Both are essential. Can you dress in or pack some pieces that give you options depending on what you see others wearing? For instance, could you wear a blouse and pants and then add a blazer if needed? I’d go with full-length pants over capris, but you know your industry better than I.

    6. Calacademic*

      Even among academics, conferences tend toward formality. You’re in networking/interview mode. In banking, I’d expect business formal.

    7. Sunflower*

      Tips on business travel:
      Agree with layering since you never know if you’ll be in a sweltering or freezing room. Plus since you’re in Cali, good chance you’ll be going from inside and outside and there’s a big temp drop from day to night.
      – Look up 1 or 2 cool things in the area you want to do. Business travel is not a vacation so you can’t see everything but you should definitely try to see a couple things while you’re there. I LOVE Huntington Beach, it’s one of my favorite beaches in SoCal. Their downtown area is adorable. Also research restaurants before you leave. You’ll be tired after the conference and it’s so much easier to go to a good restaurant if you already have planned ahead of time where you want to go.
      – Pack versatile clothing. From traveling so much, I have my standard pieces that I pack that I can wear either casually during the day or out to dinner at night.

    8. SL #2*

      I plan and run conferences for a living. The rooms are generally going to be freezing, so please layer up (and that way, if it turns out that the place has no AC, you can dress down as needed. Not that I know from personal experience.)

      I personally wouldn’t go with the capris (I run healthcare conferences and while it’s okay with the nurses and providers to show up in scrubs, the administrative staff, panelists, etc, always wear business formal), but you know your industry much better than I do! If you think that the capris would fly, by all means, go for it. But your general packing mission should be to bring pieces that are versatile and interchangeable (think 1 pair of non-descript slacks, 2 or 3 tops (or a dress!), 1 blazer, 1 cardigan).

      You’re going to want a lightweight, 4-wheeled suitcase. Lightweight being the important part. Blazers, slacks, nice tops, toiletries, etc., all add up to quite a bit of weight that you’ll have to deal with when you try and get your suitcase through carry-on!

    9. The Other Dawn*

      Coincidentally, one of the speakers just called me for another reason, so I decided to ask her what the norm is. She said that most of the speakers from the company will be in jeans and either blazers or buttoned tops. She said some attendees wear jeans, but most go for khakis, capris, pants, etc. She said I’ll be overdressed if I lean more towards formal. So glad she happened to call and I asked!

      1. Dawn*

        *smacks forehead* What a good idea! I didn’t have anyone to ask before I went to Money2020 so I had no idea what to do.

        1. CAA*

          If there’s nobody to ask, then I try to look for photos from previous years’ events. I’m not sure if your Money2020 event was an annual one, but something like The Other Dawn’s user group conference is likely held every year or two and the company probably has a few photos on their website, or maybe even an album on Flickr.

      2. Elizabeth*

        I was on the team running a conference in LA almost 3 years ago and my main memory was being glad I had skipped 3 pairs of jeans (only brought 1) in favor of a couple maxi dresses and skirts. I didn’t feel under dressed when I ran into the executive director at dinner and was still comfortable.

    10. Kairi*

      Congrats on your first business trip! I think that other people have given great advice. The only thing I would add is bring lots of business cards if you have them! They make networking much easier.

    11. Traveler*

      My biggest tip for business travel is to bring the extra things with you from home that will make you comfortable. Traveling for business is already rough since its not leisurely and unexpected things come up. Its not always possible to rearrange your schedule to accommodate for it – i.e. to run to the store. Extra sets of clothes, snacks, whatever will make it a little more homey.

    12. Brett*

      Calling was a great idea. You can also look for past pictures of the conference to see what people wore before. West coast conferences in my field tend to start as business casual and break down into t-shirt and shorts by the end of the week.

    13. EA*

      The only conferences I’ve been to have been when I was working as a stage tech for one of the companies presenting. Like most stage techs, my outfits tended towards black cargo pants and a black polo, with at least a leatherman tool and knife on my belt.

    14. Melissa*

      Pack as light as possible. If you can mix and match things to keep it light, that’s great. I used to travel for conferences a lot and I got my 3-day conference thing down to a weekender bag, and it’s so great to just grab your bag and stroll off the plane into a cab. Easier to navigate around the city to get to the hotel, and easier to check your bags or maneuver them on the last day of the conference when you have to check out early and ask the concierge to hold them.

      An extension of that is that I brought tops and cardigans that could be worn with slacks/dress pants/a skirt for the conference but with jeans for after the conference. That way, when I inevitably got invited to dinner or drinks (or both) with other conference-goers, I could just throw on some jeans under what I was already wearing on top and go.

      Comfortable shoes!! You’ll be doing a lot of walking all over the conference center. Even at small conferences your feet get tired quickly, but at the large ones where the sessions might span multiple buildings…As an extension to the above, I wore some cute dressy flats that could be repurposed for evening more casual events. So when I changed for dinner, I really only had to change my jeans.

      When I went to conferences (academic) I tended towards dressier than the average attendee. I was pretty junior, so it was often the junior folks who were more business while the professors were business casual to casual.

  8. Trying to Help*

    I am looking for some advice for a high school friend. He is a recent Tier 1 registered sex offender (think voyeurism) and is obviously having a tough time finding a job. Does anyone have any suggestions/ideas I can pass along to him?

    1. Charby*

      There was an article recently about a government program (I think it was a state attorney general or prosecutor sponsoring it) that specifically targets convicted felons in terms of hiring. I’ll try to see if I can find it but he might be local to that area or there might be a similar program local to his area that would be helpful.

      Because of the stigma surrounding felons, including people in for that type of crime, it can be hard to get a job. Most employers, given the choice between two similar candidates, will probably go with the one without the record. A program that actually leans the other way might be a good way for him to get back into the working world especially if he doesn’t have a lot of professional experience or unique skills.

      1. Sophia in the DMV*

        Research on the “mark” of a criminal record show that it disproportionately effects Black men, when compared with Men men (see Devah Pager’s work)

    2. TCO*

      Are there any nonprofit programs in your area that offer job coaching/placement services? Many of them are experts in assisting people who have convictions or other challenging backgrounds.

    3. Anon for This*

      Apply for small office jobs that don’t do background checks. That’s the only advice I have.

      Tier 1 means employers/neighbors aren’t notified of his status. I wouldn’t volunteer that information to anyone. Obviously you cannot lie if the application asks if you were convicted of a crime, but I wouldn’t share it.

      The person I know who had to go through this had a nasty probation officer on a vendetta. She threatened to tell his boss because “all S.O.’s are the same”. He tried to beat her to the punch, thinking it would look much better coming from him (and it was a similar crime/circumstance as your friend). He got fired immediately.

      He’s happily working at a very small shop that is not in his field exactly. They didn’t do background checks. He gets minimum wage…but since the judge ordered him to stay employed, he has to comply with any job.

      It’s definitely difficult. Sorry your friend is in this situation. Don’t even get me started on all the problems with the registry. Not everyone is a rapist by any means.

      1. Anon for This*

        ***** Editing for clarification:
        “Obviously you cannot lie if the application asks if you were convicted of a crime, but I wouldn’t share it if they don’t ask.”

      2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I may be wrong about this, but I think that in many states registered sex offenders are required to report their status to the employer. The office responsible for monitoring them will probably check, and he could end up in prison for a violation of the terms. Can he potentially find a way to get contract work? What are his skill and background? That might help generate more ideas.

        1. Anon for This*

          Check with your state. From what I understand, a S.O. has to tell the jurisdiction where they work, but I do not think it is required to tell their employer if they are tier 1. I don’t know for sure, so you would need to check, but in this particular case that I’m familiar with…they do not need to tell their employer.

        2. Trying to Help*

          His skill/background are professional level. I don’t think he stands a chance of getting back into what he was doing before. FWIW, it was a misdemeanor vs. a felony. I will tell him he’d better check whether he has to disclose to an employer upon applying.

          1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

            What field is he in? If you’re willing to share that might be helpful as far as brainstorming how he might work in something related.

              1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

                Well, a lot of people in marketing work for themselves. I know it’s hard to have much income when you are getting started, but that might be a way to mostly avoid the issue.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Contractors and nurseries ( nurseries as in plants, NOT children) around here employ a lot of people with a record. Some companies are known for giving anyone a fair shot, he should keep his ears open for companies around him with a reputation for trying to help people.

      My question is does he know how long he will be on the registery? I think that some people get off the registry at some point and others never come off the list- it depends on the individual’s setting.

      1. Trying to Help*

        Good idea about the nursery, I’ll pass that along. I think he’s on the registry for 15 years? Not entirely sure on that though.

    5. Gareth Keenan Investigates*

      Check your state laws first, some states don’t permit (most) employers to deny employment solely because of criminal record and sex offender status is a somewhat protected class. Of course discretion varies on the type of employment but most private employers in my state would have to adhere to a pretty specific process to deny someone employment because of their SO status. Obviously it happens all the time, but there are repercussions.

      1. Trying to Help*

        Thank you for pointing this out, it may have some bearing here. He was employed prior to this while awaiting sentencing, and the employer was aware of the charges. It wasn’t until after he had served time and tried to go back there to work that they turned him down. So it was obviously his record that kept him from getting his job back. I will tell him to look into this!

  9. Guilt Trip in Customer Service*

    Tell me your customer service horror stories?

    I had to hang up on a customer for the first time yesterday. I feel so guilty but it had to happen: The customer was unpleasable, rude, insulting, and emotionally manipulative. She pretended to cry at one point.

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      I once had a woman yell at me while on speaker phone as her dog yapped into the speaker. It was a call about a mental health care claim, so I tried to be sympathetic, but I was really glad when the call ended.

    2. Kyrielle*

      I am lucky enough not to have a lot of customer service experience, and almost all of it good. But I just wanted to say that you have my sympathy, and thank you for sticking it out, because if the world had no one in customer service because of customers behaving badly, we’d be in a very bad spot. (Also, if for any reason I somehow descended to that level, I would be _mortified_ by it later, especially after someone had to hang up on me. I doubt she is, but I hope I’m wrong!)

    3. Ihmmy*

      I kicked a customer out once. I was working retail (shoes) and this customer was rude, belligerent, and began swearing at my (meek and mild) coworker. So I asked him to leave, something along the lines of “I’m sorry sir but we are not able to help you today, I need to ask you to leave”. My coworker was nearly in tears, and I probably would have been too if he’d been aiming that vitriol at me

      1. Rat Racer*

        I read that as “kicked a customer” – and was like Holy Cow that IS serious!! Kicking someone out makes more sense. ANd that jerk totally deserved it, sounds like.

        1. Anie*

          Oh, jeeze, I read it that way too! It’s only now seeing your comment I realize differently.

          And it’s true, it’s so difficult to kick someone out, even when they deserve it.

    4. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      I worked at a tea shop for a bit and on one of my first days a guy came in and asked for “the usual.” Apparently he came in every day for the same tea. I had no idea, so I told him I was sorry but I was new, but I’d be happy to make whatever he wanted. He got upset and started huffing and my manager came over and asked what was wrong–then turned to me and said “He comes in EVERY day and you just insulted him! He’s a police officer and we might get robbed now!” I said again how sorry I was, but the guy was apparently very, very upset that new people were not briefed on his preferences as part of standard training.

      Also one time a woman tried to return a bag of used loose tea and I had to ask her to leave when she started yelling at me that the customer was always right and BY LAW!!!! I had to take back her gross wet leaves.

    5. Kelly L.*

      Long, long ago, I spent 5 or 6 years working at a sandwich shop, and this one couple always stands out above all others in my memory.

      We had started selling some simple baked pastas: penne marinara, penne alfredo, and tortellini alfredo. The couple comes in and the husband orders a penne.

      “OK, would you like the marinara or alfredo?”

      “I DON’T WANT MARINARA, I WANT PENNE!!!”

      Ooookay then. “But what kind of sauce would you like, sir?”

      “PENNE! PENNE! I WANT PENNE!”

      I realize he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about, so I go to “White sauce or red sauce?”

      He shouts a bit longer (there was probably more to this, but it’s been over ten years now) and then his wife interrupts and says to me, “You are the rudest person I have ever met. This is the worst customer service I have ever had. Give me a pen. I’m writing a note to your manager.” She does.

      Anyway, she orders too after that, they get their food, they eat. After they eat, the woman who just chewed me out…asks for an application, because she’s decided she wants to work there.

      (The manager, when he got the note, talked to me about it for like 30 seconds and realized the lady was just itching to pick a fight and that I hadn’t done anything wrong, and also that she was not someone we would want to bring onto our team. He was pretty great as a manager in a lot of ways.)

      1. Allison*

        “Give me a pen”

        So, they both wanted pen-ne?

        . . . I’ll see myself out . . .

        In all seriousness, that sounds awful and I’m glad your manager took your side.

        1. Kelly L.*

          LOL!

          He had his flaws (mainly that he’d believe whatever employees told him about things that happened when he wasn’t on site–that was a factor in a few other stories I’ve told on here)–but he always took our side against a-hole customers. He once even kicked one out and told her she couldn’t eat there if she was going to disrespect the employees! He owned the place, so he could do that. It’s part of why I stayed so long.

    6. Lou*

      When I worked in Waitrose a customer yelled at me and had a meltdown about no chopped tomatoes. I suggested a method I use; buying a tin of plum tomatoes and chop up with a knife, it was cheaper and would save her money. Let’s just say that didn’t go over well and she continued to yell at me before asking for a manager (I did think I should have told her to go to Co-Op if it was such a big deal.

      When I worked in a coffee chain shop I quit last week. had all sorts of stories, customers just really rude and unnecessarily difficult (what you get for serving caffeine addicts I suppose). Customers just sit down (when theres 2 of you 1 serving and 1 making drinks) and assume with a long queue you have time to attend to them like they are in a restaurant. Funny the amount of people who leave if you don’t have toast. Worst was when a customer demanded I grill her toast for 3 minutes.

      Our grills were not substantial so you had to switch toast to a second grill to get it properly toasted. She came up to me as I was taking it to her, in front of the till and a queue of people,and proceeded to pick up the toast with her hands, look at me like a child then talk to me as a child, and said ‘Now young lady this, this is not acceptable. I watched you move the toast from the bottom grill. This toast is not right, not toast, is it three minutes exact? No it’s not’ As she flapped the toast around she said to me ‘I will watch you do it again! I will carefully watch you. I’m not accepting this and I will talk to your manager if it happens again’.

      I just cried after that. Once though a customer said to my colleague ‘What are they employing a high school for work experience? I don’t like this I want to speak to an adult who’s on duty’. They proceeded to tell them ‘I’m 29, I’m the ADULT in charge, I don’t get paid enough to tolerate this’. LOL

      1. Elizabeth West*

        LOL wacky toast lady.

        At the deli where I worked, we had a customer who would always complain because we didn’t have lemon bars. I passed on her request but the company just didn’t have them, wasn’t going to make them, and that was that. She continued to complain about it. I finally lost patience with her one day and told her (nicely) that the grocery next door had these really good Betty Crocker lemon bar mixes and she should really try them. That shut her up and she was much easier to deal with after that!

        There was another lady who would get really mad if you didn’t give her the senior discount. We always warned new people–“That’s Sue. She gets the senior discount. Don’t ask her; just give it to her.” She was nice if she got her discount. To be fair, she was obviously on a fixed income and might not have been able to afford her daily outing without the discount.

    7. Rat Racer*

      Once upon a time, I was in a chief of staff role for a large PCP practice. There was nothing – absolutely nothing – that fell outside of my job description, including the occasional fielding of patient complaints. I was young, ambitious and overly eager to help, so when a disgruntled retiree called me at 5:00 pm to talk about the terrible administrative handling of his bill, I gave him my cell phone number (#stupid) so that he could call me back after I retrieved my infant daughter from daycare.

      Well, the guy called me back while I was in the car, we got the issue resolved, but he just kept going on and on. He needed someone to listen to him, and I was willing — for a while, but then began to wonder if I was destined to spend the rest of my life on the phone with this man.

      In an act of desperation, I reached behind me and yanked my baby’s pacifier out of her mouth. There was a moment confused silence from her, then she emitted an ear drum-shattering shriek of utter shock. rage and betrayal. It had the desired effect: the disgruntled patient said “yes – I can see you have to go” and hung up. I still feel guilty though for making my baby cry just to get someone off the phone. I will totally pay for at least half of her therapy bills when she grows up.

      1. Rita*

        My mom got pulled over with my brother in the car, and she did that exact same thing. When the cop came up to the window my brother was already wailing. He quickly gave her a warning and left.

        1. Hlyssande*

          My mom did the same with all three of us kids once! Her headlight was out and she got pulled over, so she turned to the backseat and told us all to cry. Older brother started it and we chimed in.

          And yes, she got away with it.

      4. Charby*

        When you said “PCP” I thought first of the drug and I thought, ‘well, if you’re dealing PCP to this guy maybe that’s why he’s agitated and erratic’…

    8. Anie*

      Working at a grocery store, I had a woman come up and ask where the chocolate was. I asked her, “What kind of chocolate?”

      She swore at me and started screaming that she hated how no one in the store spoke English. She wouldn’t let me explain when I tried to say types of chocolate are in different places and I simply didn’t want to send her to the wrong place (baking chocolate is aisle 10 but boxed chocolate is in the floral department and bars/bagged chocolate is in aisle 21).

      Just. Kept. Screaming.

      2. alter_ego*

        There is this category of customer that can not handle being asked clarifying questions, and I just don’t understand it at all.

        1. Sparkly Librarian*

          I had a reference interview like this earlier in the week. I honestly ended up saying (on the last of three questions, after I’d looked up information on the first two), “You’ve just said a lot of words, and I understand what the words mean, but I don’t understand what they mean when you put them all together like that.” The patron ended up storming out after declaring that [what he wanted me to look up] was so simple and I was just too ignorant to find it! He’s a regular who just… spews keywords that aren’t related to each other, doesn’t answer clarifying questions, and sticks around for the free printouts which he doesn’t ever seem to read.

          1. another academic librarian*

            I’m always baffled by patrons who get angry at me for asking them clarifying questions. Being a librarian doesn’t mean that I’m a mind reader.

    9. Anie*

      Oh I have another! It still makes me mad, to this day, and it’s been a solid 5 years.

      The grocery store I worked at had a huge renovation, but decided to stay open to customers. For 2 months we’d block off random aisles and move the product while new floors and shelving was put in overnight.

      I was carefully placing shampoo onto a thin wire rack (all in order, all with the price carefully labeled). The rack wasn’t meant for wobbly bottles though (maybe cereal boxes?) so I was placing bottles directly onto an unstable wire mesh. It was the 4:59 and I was already going to be late punching out of my 9 hour shift, but I really wanted to get these last few things moved b/c the whole rest of the aisle was already moved. Think completely empty apocalypse-style grocery aisle with me at the very end, moving a few things.

      This woman rolled her cart up behind me and just kind of…stopped. So I turned around and asked how I could help her. She gave me a look of disbelief and said, “Yeah, can you move?”

      I looked at the wire rack, which has been strategically placed to block off the empty aisle, and said, “Well, actually, there’s nothing on the other side of this and it’s difficult to move the…”

      She didn’t even listen to me finish. She HUFFED, smashed her carriage into the rack until it screeched out of her way, and then pushed her way into the empty aisle.

      As I stared at the bottles lying in ruined piles and all over the floor, she turned back to me and said, “Now, don’t you think that was pretty rude of you?”

      1. Slimy Contractor*

        How is this real?? I mean, I believe you, but I really, really don’t want to believe you. People suck!

        1. Lou*

          People are just really rude in general tbh online I have noticed hostility on the facebook page ‘waiters / waitress memes’ by members of the public the attitude is ‘You’re a servant you do as I say you have no right to complain’. General public are just so entitled tbh.

          1. Anie*

            It was my first experience with that kind of entitlement. My jaw dropped and I stuttered something like, “No, I really don’t think it was….”

            smh

            1. Corrupted by Coffee*

              I once had a customer who was convinced she had been shorted 5 minutes of computer time (we have a little colored bar graph in the corner of each screen that counts down your time and pops up warnings when you’re getting near. When my coworker attempted to check the computer records, she promptly screamed swear words, left the building and threw a large rock threw the window into the children’s area.

    10. Omne*

      An indirect one. I work at a state taxing authority and I was in the collections area. Years ago we had a taxpayer that was incredibly uncooperative. He routinely swore at and insulted people that he called. One day he called collect ( he was in the next state over) and one of my people answered. I was listening in. The operator informed her that it was a collect call for ******. The person answering said that ****** wasn’t in the office. The taxpayer heard this and started swearing and ranting about it being a lie. Suddenly there was a and the operator said ” You don’t have to take that”.

      First time I’ve run across someone so rude that the operator hung up on them…..

    11. "Jayne"*

      When I was a shift manager in retail, I had a customer who I think had some sort of mental problem, the interaction was so bizarre. The customer called to ask for an item to be put on hold. On the phone she was very nice, and everything was very normal. When she arrived to purchase the item, she became strangely aggressive for no reason. She purchased the items with a coupon and had me explain everything about the receipt to her in extreme detail, she claimed that the items that she had JUST purchased were items that she was currently stealing and I had allowed it (even though she clearly bought them), lied to me about a certain employee (who has always been great) that she was incredibly rude, told me I was a horrible daughter to my mother (???), and had me write a bunch of information down that she claimed was taking to corporate. It was so bad that some of the customers waiting in line were defending me and offering to call the police. It was the scariest moment of my life, and I was genuinely concerned for my life. This was my first management job, so I very intimidated by aggressive behavior and didn’t deal with them well. What made it worse was that the other more senior manager also on duty was deliberately ignoring my cries for help and hiding in the office the entire time. She apparently had been to the store, and other stores, previously. She eventually vowed to never return after she didn’t get her way with the store manager.

      1. Loquelic Iteritas*

        My son worked at a nearby big-box electronics retailer this past summer, and he had a number of stories about rude / weird customers. I don’t recall any of the stories in enough detail to recount them here, but one thing I noticed was that a lot of “problem behavior” seemed to start near shift-change or closing time. I could be wrong but I suspect that there are a number of people out there who are constantly attempting to work some kind of scam on Big Retail. Whether they’re professional rip-offs or mentally ill or what, I don’t know. But I found it suspicious how often someone would make a scene over a coupon or a discount, 5 minutes before the store was supposed to close, when there were 30 people waiting in line. And often it was a large item and they’d already spent 45 minutes or an hour “shopping” and checking out the item with store personnel.

        *Shrug* I could be wrong. But it sure seemed like several aspects of the situation were ‘calculated’ to maximize the amount of pressure on the checkout person, to see if they could get them to cave or bend the rules to get this unpleasant person out of their face.

        1. Hlyssande*

          My old brother did a stint at Circuit City and told me how he witnessed one of his coworkers, a very short Japanese man, getting bodily lifted (possibly by his neck, it’s been awhile?) and shaken by a customer once. His coworker defended himself with a blow to each side of the customer’s neck and promptly got fired. Terrible management all over.

        2. Rebecca*

          Definitely this is true. I did retail management for a department store. I think the idea is that they think if you’re in a hurry to get the store closed and/or deal with the customers in line, you’ll just give them what they want.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yeah, that is not an organized effort on the part of a particular group. Numerous individuals have figured it out on their own and do this.

        3. "Jayne"*

          She really wasn’t trying to get a good deal or anything, her coupon worked, and the transaction part was perfectly normal. I think she was just trying to cause a scene for the heck of it. She had me call the manager from the store she had just come from (That manager told her his name was “Captain”. I think he must have dealt with her before, but he gave me no warnings about her. He just laughed.), and had me tell him weird things that had absolutely no relation to the store/transaction. I was really confused about what was going on. That’s why I think she had some sort of medical problem. Her actions were very random.

          1. "Jayne"*

            She really wasn’t trying to get a good deal or anything, her coupon worked, and the transaction part was perfectly normal–there was nothing that happened that would cause her to get upset. I think she was just trying to cause a scene for the heck of it. She had me call the manager from the store she had just come from (That manager told her his name was “Captain”. I think he must have dealt with her before, but he gave me no warnings about her. He just laughed.), and had me tell him weird things that had absolutely no relation to the store/transaction. I was really confused about what was going on. That’s why I think she had some sort of medical problem. Her actions were very random.

      2. JGray*

        When I worked in retail (large national retailer) we would have a woman & her sister who would come in and purchase things on clearance and then return them for the very reason that they were on clearance. For instance, she bought this picnic basket once with dishes and utensil in it. Well, there were little serving forks that were missing when it arrived at the store which is why it was put on clearance right away and it was clearly labeled as missing the forks. She bought it than tried to return it because the forks were missing. Another time she came in with a large group of family members and then demanded to know why certain items of clothing weren’t on clearance like they were in Minneapolis (I am in Montana). It wasn’t me dealing with her but my poor coworker that was had to get all the information on the item and then try to call Minneapolis to verify 1) they carried the items and 2) what the price of the items was. There were all sorts of time zone issues we had to deal with but the woman stayed at the sort of something like 3 hours.

        1. JGray*

          I also thought of another one. This also happened while I worked retail. I was working in the back office by that point and I had a woman come up to the door and say that she needed to talk to someone in the home appliance department about blenders. Apparently she had ordered a blender for her daughter who like in a state with sales tax online and was upset because she was being charged sales tax. The person that was working in home appliances that day was brand new (think 2 weeks on the job) and so she had no idea what to say to the lady. I explained to the lady that the state her daughter lived had sales tax and so we had to charge her sales tax even online because we have to follow the law based on where the items is being shipped. I can understand her frustration because with being in Montana I have done plenty of shopping in surrounding states and been able to avoid paying the sales tax (by using my Montana drivers license). This usually works at places like outlet malls not at grocery stores- I guess need vs want comes into play on whether they will waive the sales tax.

    12. AndersonDarling*

      I hung up on a customer when I worked at a real estate company. I was covering for the receptionist while she was on break and the police went into one of the buildings we managed and told all the tenants to stay in their offices. Every tenant was calling trying to find out what was happening. One guy was screaming at me, accusing me of knowing what was going on and that I wasn’t telling him because I was evil.. so on and so forth. After screaming at me for two minutes, he yelled something along the lines of, “how can you not know why the police are here!!” And I screamed back, “You should call the police and ask them!” and I hung up.
      The wonderful receptionist took the blame for it when the guy called back to complain to the manager. The screaming tenant was a doctor and I still remember his name.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I am so glad that when I worked in a call center we were allowed to hang up on abusive callers. (We did have to warn them first.) We also were allowed to hang up on callers during tornado/fire drills and alarms. But I’m pretty sure the company could be fined if that didn’t happen. I never had to hang up on anyone, but I knew people who did.

        Also, we were a military contractor. If they were too troublesome, the local base would get involved. And if they were AD, they could get into real trouble.

    13. Omne*

      It wasn’t customer service per se but I’ve had guns pointed at me on occasion and went in with a SWAT team on another. Tax collection can get interesting sometimes, especially when you’re working tax protester and white supremacist groups.

        1. Omne*

          Only after I complained…..

          Strange as it may seem, I’d go back to doing that in a heartbeat if the programs were still there. A lot less money but a lot more fun.

    14. Janelle*

      I worked at a surgeon’s office for a while as an admin. This was a specialized office for a particular type of surgery (not life threatening emergency situations). One morning the city was being slammed with snow, but we were still open. The doctor asked me to call all our scheduled patients to find out who was still coming in.

      I called one woman who immediately started screaming at me. She kept asking for a different doctor’s name and was infuriated we didn’t have her appointment down for a different month. I kept trying to explain I was with Doctor 1, not Doctor 2, and there was not a Doctor 2 listed for our entire hospital. She kept screaming. I started tearing up; I was young and just wasn’t prepared for this. Eventually she said she wasn’t coming in because of the snow (and called me a bunch of awful names for assuming she could even step out her front door in this weather).

      I rescheduled her for the next month and later found out Doctor 2 was in a different hospital in a different city. To top it off, she didn’t show up for the rescheduled appointment, which she’d made on behalf of her daughter. I felt really bad for the kid and still wonder if she ever managed to get to any doctor at all.

    15. Vorthys*

      Bomb threat.

      Many years ago in the pre-smartphone era, I worked in a call center for a major mobile service. We were horrible at customer service, and, alas, it pushed someone to the point of threatening to blow us up.

      Honestly, I didn’t think it was serious, but the necessary resulting procedure was a mess. I think I was more upset about the fact that it ruined my call stats at the time because they were always pretty bad to begin with. They actually counted the time he was on the line against my metrics, and I didn’t get to take anymore calls the rest of the day to even it up.

      Though I did get a good anecdote to pull out when people complain of obscure mandatory training they think they’ll never use. I suppose it balances out.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I know someone who’s had two when on calls (once again, government contractor). However, we take comfort in the fact that it’s a federal offense in this case, and these people do get same-day visits from the FBI.

    16. WriterLady*

      A customer once had two months past due of a cell phone bill and I had to shut them down. Apparently they couldn’t pay the bill because the husband had cancer and was sick. Well, I couldn’t agree to turn it back on and they got really upset, and cried on the phone. Woman sent a letter to my boss telling her how heartless I was and how her husband died and now they’ll never forget that I did that. I never got in trouble – probably would have gotten in MORE trouble had I let it stay on but still I have always been bothered by that.

      3. pony tailed wonder*

        Not Always Right is a great place to find bad customer service stories and co-worjer stories.

    18. some1*

      I’ve told this story before here. I was 21 and in my first office job as a receptionist at a govt dept. I often get told I look younger than I really am, so it wasn’t unusual when I was 21 for someone to think I was a teenager.

      My first week a guy came in for a hearing he had with one of the attys I supported. She (atty) wasn’t in the office, and being as it was my first week I didn’t know what to do. While I was trying to figure out who to ask, the guy asked me, “Is there an *adult* I can talk to?”

      I found the atty’s paralegal and he gave the guy his copy of the hearing notice that had been mailed previously – the guy was here on the wrong day. The guy said to the paralegal, “I asked your receptionist if there was an *adult* I can talk to. . . ” thinking my coworker would laugh, but he just gave him a blank stare.

      1. "Jayne"*

        I hate that! I’m in my mid-twenties, and look 17. It was frustrating as a manager when people wouldn’t take me seriously. And I would get comments like “Aren’t you too young to be a manager?” It’s so rude!

      2. JGray*

        I not only look young but sound young! So I hate it when I answer the phone and people ask for my mom or parents. Ummm no you can’t speak with my parents because they don’t live here. I also usually hang up on people that do that. If you call someone you need to say “Can I please speak with so and so”.

    19. Elizabeth West*

      This isn’t really a horror story, just kind of insensitive.

      In May 2009, my area was hit by a super derecho (a terrifyingly powerful windstorm–a mesoscale convective vortex, for you weather nerds) that generated 19 tornadoes. One of them hit Exjob’s facility and badly damaged the second building, knocked over a semi-trailer, sucked the letters off the office building (we never found them), and cut the power (snapped the pole clean in half). You can google the storm if you want–it has its own Wikipedia page.

      The phone still worked, and numerous customers started calling and asking why their faxes wouldn’t go through. I explained that we had had a tornado and the power was out and we didn’t know when it would be restored. They would say, “Oh, that’s awful, is everyone okay? We’ll send it tomorrow,” etc. etc.

      Except one customer. She asked, “Why can’t I fax you a quote?”
      I gave my explanation.
      “Oh.” A beat. “So when will the power come back on so I can send my quote?”

      **facepalm**

      1. Katie*

        We lost power in our winery tasting room once. We got several “I don’t get why you need power to pour wines” … “we need power to charge you for the wine” seemed a little insensitive.

        1. alter_ego*

          I worked at a computer store in a mall where the power went out for the whole mall, and people freaked out about not being able to shop in our store while the power still out. At least wine tasting you can do without power, though, of course, there’s the issue of payment. What did these customers think they were going to do in a computer store with no electricity?!

          1. Elizabeth West*

            LOL, maybe they thought you had batteries in everything.

            The weirdest thing the tornado did was turn someone’s pickup truck. It didn’t flip it; it MOVED it out of its parking spot (facing south) into the nearby access road west of the lot and completely turned it around facing the other way. The roof of the second building was ripped off in a huge strip and rolled up like a ginormous gum wrapper, on the opposite side from where the pickup was parked. That’s how I knew for sure it was a tornado and not the derecho’s 100+ mph straight-line winds. Only rotation would have moved that truck the opposite way. That was super creepy. 0_0 Plus there were cut-up leaves stuck all over our building like little green polka dots.

            Our shipping guy was a little disappointed the semi-trailer didn’t fall on his nearby car. He was all, “Dammit, that was my big chance to get rid of it!”

    20. Not So NewReader*

      I was working a retail environment where some of our merchandise was kept outdoors. It did not matter if it got wet- things like potting soil. One day a woman came in and I noticed she had a very nice car. She got out of the car and I noticed that her shoes matched her purse which matched her belt exactly. I quickly concluded that the suit was very expensive. She wanted potting soil. I told her I would get that for her, if she would just move her car next to the stacks. I explained it had rained the night before and the bags weighed closer to 70 pounds rather than the normal 40 pounds. (She had parked way up hill from the stacks and it was 95 degrees that day.)
      She fell apart. “Who do you think you are??? You are nothing but a lowly blue collar worker. How dare you tell me what to do!..” It got worse from there, I could feel the tears coming up in my eyes. She went on and on with her garbage. Then I noticed her words were coming out of her mouth so fast, that she could not possibly be breathing correctly. And I realized she would have to inhale at some point and it would be my turn to speak.
      Finally she landed on, “Do you KNOW who I AM?”
      I said, “no, ma’am, I don’t.”
      She said, “I am Mrs Well Known Name”.
      I said, “I am Mrs NewReader. It’s nice to meet you. Now, will you please move your car? And I will get some cardboard to put down under the wet bags.”

      She moved her car.

      I found out that she did that to everyone all over town. She had been banned from numerous stores because of her tirades. I would have reported her to my bosses, but I knew they would ban her from the store. For some reason, I actually felt sorry for her. I don’t think she had a single friend on this planet. And that is a very damning thing to say as well as being a very sad thing to say.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Thanks, all. I had wonderful bosses and I knew it would rain in this woman’s life if I said something.
          The problem was with my real last name. She probably recognized it. My FIL was a doctor that treated HER husband when he was a child. For her, this was as if I said “check mate” while we were playing chess. I believed that I inflicted more pain that day by insisting on her moving her car, than anything else I could have done.
          So, now you see, I did not take the truly high road here.
          No regrets.

    21. Merry and Bright*

      When I was 18 I had a summer job selling ice creams each afternoon from a seaside kiosk. One day it was a hot sunny day and a lady asked for large ice cream cone. Job done, next customer.

      A few minutes later she came back and shouted in front of the queue that her ice cream was melting and dripping down her clothes – and because of the weather I should have warned her this could happen. I ended up giving her a refund but when the supervisor came back she made me pay for the ice cream.

      I was mortified but then I was very young. These days I work in places that cover “what ifs” and “what to dos”.

      The rest of the summer went fine though.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        When I worked in an ice cream store, people were generally happy (they were getting ice cream!) but often illogical. We were always honest about flavors if people asked, specifically about the orange slush drink flavor. It tasted like baby aspirin. We would tell people this, they would order it, then they would tell us it tasted awful and they wanted something else. Generally, if something wasn’t to someone’s liking, we’d replace without additional charges. We always charged for the additional drink in this case. It was kind of the “not believing the counter help” fee.

        Also, if obnoxious drunks came through the drive-thru, they did not get napkins or flatware in their bags. No one ever came back to complain. (Nowadays, I would just call the cops and report a DUI, but teens back then would not have thought of it.)

    22. Malissa*

      I was a female working in an auto parts store. I routinely handled misogynistic attitudes all the time with grace and humor. But one day I had a customer that was just pushing all the wrong buttons. It was finally determined that he needed a chunk of fuel hose. I went back and cut him off a foot of it. I came back to the counter and he didn’t like the length of the hose. “That’s not a foot” he said, “Women just aren’t any good with measurements.”
      The shift supervisor was coming over to intervene but I just looked at him and winked, conveying the message of “I got this.”. I looked the customer dead in the eye and offered him a ruler to double check it. He measured it and then still insisted it just didn’t look right. Having enough of his attitude I look at him and held up my fingers and said “just because you think this is 12 inches doesn’t mean it is. Now would you like to pay for the hose?”

      1. alter_ego*

        That reminds me of my favorite joke.
        Why are women so bad at parallel parking?
        Because they’ve been lied to their whole lives about what 8 inches looks like

      2. JGray*

        Awesome!! I worked in the tool department of a large national retailer once and had a guy say to me that he wanted to speak to “The Tool Guy” when his wife pointed me out as someone who could help him. So I went & got my coworker who had been working there for 2 weeks. Well guess what my coworker couldn’t answer the guys question where as I could. I was really nice about it & now I know nicer than I should have been but the guy wasn’t even worth my time.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Same job that I mentioned above. One day a man came in to the store. He sauntered in like he was walking into a saloon in a B Western. “I’m looking for a man!”, he said before I could even greet him. I was in a male dominated industry so I was used to this. Even women would tell me that as a female I could not do my job because of my gender. But this dude was the SIXTH person in a row that day to tell me this and I lost it. I said, “Well, honey, I found someone special and you will, too. You just hang in there.” And I walked out of the room.

        He told me I was fiesty and he liked that. I could wait on him, he said. It was the longest fn hour of hour of my life. Selling this guy a couple of hand tools and plants involved quoting Shakespear and discussing world religions. I came away from that sale totally exhausted. From there forward, when anyone needed to speak to a man, I just told them “oh, okay”, knowing full well that they had a 45 minute wait. There were many people in front of them who just wanted to speak to a man. I walked away smiling to myself.

    23. Chameleon*

      Lots of good stories from banking. There wasn’t guy who always kept his cash deposit in his nasty, sweaty socks, and we’d have to count it (yuck).

      We got hit on a lot, but one time as I finished up with a customer he said jovially, “spank you very much!” I just looked at him with my best “you f*king idiot” face and he got flustered and mumbled an apology before fleeing.

      And then there was when I was the jerk. A regular customer was at my window and I said, “Hey, you have some schmutz on your forehead.” She looked at me like I was an idiot and said, “yeah, it’s Ash Wednesday.” I’m not Christian so I didn’t even know that was a thing!

      1. Anie*

        You know, when I first moved to “the big city” and began using public transportation a lot, I remember once getting on the train and realizing the woman sitting across from me had dirt on her forehead. I felt so bad! I struggled the whole ride, about 45 minutes. I wanted to let her know because she looked so pretty otherwise. Like a coward, I never worked up the courage to let her know.

        And then I got off the train and saw a bunch more people with dirt on them. Finally asked someone about it at work and it was explained.

      2. alter_ego*

        Every. Single. Year. I forget about ash wednesday and tell the first person I see that they’ve got something on their forehead. Without fail. Every year.

    24. CollegeAdmin*

      I had several adventures while working for a gift store, but my favorite was the woman who came in and asked for a non-religious confirmation card. I told her that we didn’t have any (given that it’s a religious ceremony!) but offered to show her the general congratulations section. She stormed out in a huff without buying anything.

    25. Katie*

      A coworker and I were working for a winery’s tasting room, we were 2 late 20s females alone closing registers and up.. We closed at 5, and locked the doors a few minutes early behind our last tasting, I’m not starting your experience at 4:55, sorry. A large SUV came speeding into the parking lot and 6 40somethings ran up to the front. Found the doors locked and 2 of the men spent several minutes banging on the door and screaming at us. We finally threatened to call the local PD and the group left.

      Classy!

      lol

    26. Log Lady*

      During college, I was working in my school’s office. It was the beginning of the semester and I was trying to help about a million people with making copies, and this guy calls about a drawing class for non-majors. He says the syllabus says you can miss 20% of the classes and still pass, how many classes is that? I’m like, I really have no idea? I clearly have a tone of voice that says a – I don’t care and b – I’m stressed. He calls back and yells at me for not helping him more.

      I cried cause he yelled at me. But seriously. Don’t call an art major and ask them how many drawing for non major classes you can miss. Just go to the class you paid for! I told a professor this and he said if I ever got a call like that again, just transfer it to him.

      I mean, i wasn’t exactly in a customer service roll, but he treated me like I was.

    27. Stranger than fiction*

      I’m sure I have a thousand, having worked as a food server for years and also customer service and account management for several years. But the one that stands out (maybe because my daughter was just talking about it last weekend) is from this one time at a popular at the time steakhouse chain I was serving at. They had an early bird special that drew all the folks from the retirement community nearby. Please note I usually love old folks. But this couple came in and the woman was just awful- made me remake the decaf three times til it was to her liking, shoved the bread basket into my stomach because it wasn’t hot enough, snapped her fingers at me when I was taking another tables order, etc….
      Well, when her order came up in the window, I picked up her steak with my bare hands, licked all the juice off of it, and put it back on the plate and served it to her. It was very self satisfying as I walked by her smiling while she ate it. And for anyone wondering, yes coworkers saw what I did including the chef and a manager and cheered me on!

    28. Pineapple Incident*

      When I was working for a certain retailer, I routinely had experiences with couponing customers who were lying to us, reprinting tons of the same coupon or photocopying it beyond scanning capability, and walking out with tons of stuff paid for with pennies (I don’t begrudge people saving money but when it takes me an hour and a half to finish someone’s transactions I get pissed off).

      This one lady was a gem- she would pretend to only speak minimal English and insist she only knew Russian, but coworkers of mine had seen her in town at other establishments speaking perfect English. She would show up to buy things, spend hours looking at items, and bring up 40 coupons for other things and keep shoving them at me saying “look, LOOK” and wouldn’t take no for an answer. I think she was just hoping if she was obstinate enough people would cave. We had a return policy that allowed customers to return items without a receipt, but corporate instructed us to stop doing it with her after we INSISTED she not be allowed given how much money she was costing our store with constant returns on things she bought months before with coupons.

      We had another older guy who would come in after the pharmacy had just closed and argue with the pharmacist walking out of the building about how he had to have his pills RIGHT NOW. He would also hang out in the front store, look at things, and not buy anything but be creepy while he was around. Once he asked me to show him some fragrances, so I walked him over to a display. He asked me what one particular one smelled like, I said I didn’t know but he could test it on himself. He sprayed me with it, then leaned in and sniffed, and smiled. I smelled like horrible cologne the rest of the day, and he walked away smiling. I was too stunned to say anything in response.

      TL;DR — I hate retail.

    29. Grapey*

      I did lottery once as a side job to pay for school. A guy cashed in a ton of scratch-off tickets, individually low winnings but overall came to over $800 bucks. The total he counted in his head was like 10 bucks higher than what the lottery machine rang through, and he watched me scan all the tickets. He said *I* (not the machine) obviously deserved a low paying job if I can’t do math right. Hint: There was no ‘math’ involved on my part.

      I immediately called my manager down to deal with it (because he was becoming verbally abusive over his error), held up my nutritional biochemistry textbook and said “Since I can’t be trusted to do math, you can wait here for my manager to do basic arithmetic while I finish studying for my advanced biology degree.”

      The look on his face when my manager got the same number.

    30. Mimmy*

      OMG, some of these are hilarious!!

      I’ve mentioned this job here before, but about 15 years ago, I worked as a receptionist at a wholesale mattress factory, so the customers were retail stores and, I think, “price club” stores. Anyway, I remember this one store manager who I could swear had a mental illness. I don’t remember specifics–I just remember always being rattled whenever I spoke with him.

      I lasted 2 and a half weeks at that job – that whole job was toxic.

    31. Thing 1*

      I’m a pharmacy tech working for a company that provides meds to nursing homes and other long-term care facilities. So for the most part, instead of dealing directly with patients, I deal with their nurses. Usually this is better, but sometimes you get some really bizarre phone calls.

      So once upon a time, it’s my 6th day in a row at work, around 9pm, and all I want is to get to 9:30 so I can go home and go to sleep. I wind up getting an order where I have to call the facility to give them a code to pull medication from their emergency stock so they can give it to the patient before their overnight delivery arrives. So I get the code, call the facility, and ask to speak to the nurse for this patient. I get the right nursing station, but whoever answers the phone can’t find that nurse. So she says she’ll take the code and give it to her. That works for me, so we run down the patient name, the drug name and strength, how many tabs they’re allowed to take, etc. I should note at this point that we seem to be understanding each other perfectly well – the connection is fine, no language barrier issues, and so on. But then I go to give her the code and everything starts to go horribly wrong.

      “Okay, so your code is two, three.”
      “Two, three.”
      “Six, eight.”
      “Six, H.”
      “No, not H, eight.”
      “H like Helen.”
      “No, the number eight. These are all going to be numbers, no letters, okay?”
      “…six?”
      “No, not six, eight.”
      “I don’t understand.”
      “Eight? The number after seven?”
      “…H like Helen?”
      “No, eight. The number between seven and nine.”
      “…I don’t understand you.”
      And then she hung up on me.

    32. EA*

      I spent several years working in theme parks and hotels. I have tons of stories, but here’s 3 of my favorites.

      1. (working front desk in a (4 diamond) hotel that had 1 main building with checkin, gift shop, and restaurants, but no guest rooms … they were all in other buildings). Guest comes up and demands a room in the main building. I explain that there aren’t any rooms in that building, but I’d be happy to get them a room close to the main building. They said that wouldn’t be acceptable, and they needed a room in the main building. I explained again that there aren’t any. They asked that I move someone else out. I said again that I couldn’t do that, because there aren’t any rooms in the building to move someone out of. They said that they’d stay at the desk until I could find them a room in the main building. I told them that I could probably clear out a broom closet, but their room in the other building would probably be more comfortable. They muttered that I was a “sarcastic idiot”, and walked away.

      2. (while working at a roller coaster) I measured a child, the child was too short by about 2 inches. Guest asked me to re-measure the kid. Kid was still 2 inches too short. Guest says that our height bar must be at the wrong height. I pull out the tape measure that we used to check the height (part of daily opening procedures). Bar is at the correct height, the kid is still 2 inches too short. Guest and child walk away, come back 5 minutes later, and miraculously, the child is taller. I asked them to remove the child’s shoes, which were now untied, and appeared to be loose. They had stuffed ice cream bars in the shoes to try and make the kid taller. The kid was still not allowed to ride. The guest asked if they could sign a waiver. I said no, but that I’d be happy to call the local sherriff’s office to have a chat with them about their willingness to endanger their child’s safety. They walked away without another word. (My manager told me later that they had gone to Guest Services and complained about me.)

      3. (This one is more amusing than horrible). While working at an attraction at one theme park, a guest asked for directions to an attraction at a competitor’s park. (think Orca, when I worked for a park with a Mouse as a mascot). Without hesitation, I replied “Go over the bridge, around the center island, exit the park, get in your car, hop on the local highway, take that to Exit ##, make a left, then a right, park the car, go through the turnstiles, and then make a right”. Their eyes glazed over about the point I told them to get in their car.

      1. Lindsay J*

        I got spit on one time because I would not let a too-short child ride a roller coaster. (By the parent, not the kid).

    33. Hattie McDoogal*

      Ah, jeez. I love/hate threads like this one. I work in customer service so it’s kind of comforting to know other people have to put up with this garbage too, but some of the customers… I know it’s not happening to me, but it still makes my blood boil to read some of these!

      Part of my job is emailing customers to tell them that the item they want is out of stock (we have live stock updates on our website but for whatever reason customers never seem to see it). Some time around last Christmas a guy ordered a particular widget. I emailed him later that day and said it’s not in stock, here’s when we expect to have it in if you’re okay with waiting, here’s a possible alternative that is in stock, blah blah blah. He sent me back a wildly abusive, all-caps email that had about a dozen f-bombs in it, telling me we were the worst company he’d ever dealt with and that our customer service was horrible, and closed with a suggestion that I kill myself (specifically that I take an electronic device into the tub with me the next time I took a bath). I forwarded the email to my boss, who told me to unceremoniously cancel the guy’s order, and that I was under no obligation to communicate with him. About a week later he emailed back and said something like, “I do still want that widget…”. Boss was like, LOL NOPE.

      I deal with a lot of angry, entitled customers (for anyone keeping score, I think doctors are the worst, especially ones who feel it necessary to remind you that they’re doctors — you know it’s going to be a bad call when it starts off with “Hello, this is Dr. Beverly Crusher…”).

    34. The Other CrazyCatLady*

      I used to work at a county animal shelter. I had a few… interesting… conversations with people.

      1) One lady was very upset that someone had “stolen” her cat. She insisted that everyone in her neighborhood knew her cat on sight, so obviously if someone had taken the cat to us, they had it in for her personally. This was compounded by the fact that nobody came looking for the cat for over a week. She got her cat back. Newly spayed and with meds for a cold.

      2) Another lady yelled at me because I didn’t know local ordinances on pet burial. I offered the number of animal control, who actually *know* the laws because it’s their job to enforce them, but she was terribly angry that *I* didn’t know. This conversation resulted in me discovering that I was allowed to hang up on abusive people so long as I warned them first.

      3) I have actual horror stories from working there, but there’s no means to hide such things from people who don’t want to see it, so I won’t go there. (but yes, there are also heartwarming stories to counter those, or I wouldn’t still kind of miss that job)

  10. Midge*

    Looking for some advice about a job that hasn’t been posted yet.

    A coworker mentioned that his old boss will be looking for someone new in her two person department. It is in the part of my field I’m trying to move into, so I want to take advantage of this opportunity. I’m planning to send an email to the boss (who I’ve met before) saying that I heard she’ll be looking to hire in her department, let her know I’m interested in learning more about the position, give a little bit of my related experience, and attach my resume. Is that too much? Or is there anything else I should be saying here?

    2. Sunflower*

      I think that’s fine- maybe check with your coworker first to see if there’s a different method or way you should go about doing this.

      1. Midge*

        Yeah, I don’t want him to know I’m looking. But if I’m going to reference him in the email there’s a good chance the boss will ask him about it. So I probably have to say something.

    3. A New Manager*

      I know a lot of hiring people are against this, but as for me, one of the things I look for in a candidate is whether they know how to seek out resources and use them to get the information they need. In interviewing for several positions I’ve had to fill so far, I’ve asked candidates what they did to prepare for the interview, and the answer I’m looking for should include some type of research into the job they’re applying for, like reaching out to someone who is already in that position or someone who recently interviewed for it so that they can get an idea of what type of questions will be asked during the interview.

      It’s a little different for me, because I hire internally from people who already work within my agency, but in my opinion it doesn’t hurt to reach out and ask someone information you need to know to help you be better prepared. I can see how this would become a problem for someone who receives hundreds of applicants for one job, as there is just not time to answer these questions all day every day, but you should be able to use your judgment to find out. In this case, the job isn’t even posted yet, so the chances of there being a ton of other people inquiring about it are much less. It really comes down to the personal preference of the hiring manager, and there’s no way to tell if this would annoy that person or not unless you ask your friend or just go for it and sink or swim.

  11. Katie the Fed*

    So this is a question that’s not a perfect fit in this thread, but somewhat related to school and work so I’m going to put it here:

    A friend of mine is a high school teacher. One of his former students was orphaned in 9th grade and was in the foster system for high school. Despite bad odds, he managed to graduate. However, he just turned 18 and essentially aged out of the system, with no safety net. We’re helping my friend funnel this kid money and clothes and food (he’s basically near homeless – staying with a friend) and hungry – and he’s also a full time student in community college.

    What resources are available for someone in that situation? He’ll need a job, but he’s in school full time as well. School is expensive. Living is expensive.

    What kinds of job/school/other resources could we direct him to?

    1. Lore*

      There is an organization called the LifeNet Network that was set up for precisely that purpose by Youth Villages–I know of it because an author I work with, Vanessa Diffenbaugh, is on their board. I’ll post the links in the next reply.

        1. Lore*

          She actually set up her own nonprofit for this purpose, the Camellia Network, when that book came out; it’s become part of Youth Village/Lifeset recently.

      3. Lore*

        The link isn’t posting for some reason–it’s lifesetnetwork dot org, or youthvillages dot org for the broader parent organization.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        It looks like they are Tennesee based? I was quickly scanning- are there similar organizations in other states?

    2. Anon369*

      No real ideas here except that maybe being a FT student has to take a hit in order to work. As I understand it, resources are really limited once you age out.

    3. LCL*

      There’s got to be someone at the community college that would know more about student resources. I would start with them.

    4. Kyrielle*

      He very probably qualifies for all sorts of welfare assistance based on income now – reduced-cost housing, food stamps, etc. His local city/county may have resources, and his community college may also know of some (including, possibly, financial aid). Local food banks; a church may also want to help, if that’s assistance he would accept. (Also, this is probably beyond the local Buy Nothing group, especially the housing aspect, but it might be worth joining/monitoring the group for things he could use.)

      1. TootsNYC*

        the state department of social services may have an income maintenance worker who can help figure out what sorts of assistance he’s available for now that he’s an adult.

        Because there is help for adults.

    5. Lucky*

      What state/city is he in? Many states are starting to offer resources to aging-out foster kids. I’d be happy to research and try to find some help for him.
      Other than that, how about financial aid? If he aged out, he should be considered independent, i.e., not receiving financial help from his parents.

    6. Loose Seal*

      Former foster care social worker here. Has he signed up for the Independent Living Program (ILP)? This is a federal program that pays for some college and gives spending money up until age 25. Many teens aging out of foster care do not sign up for ILP because they are (understandably) tired of caseworkers being in their lives. However, the ILP program is completely separate from foster care; the newly-aged out teen does *not* need to sign themselves back into foster care to take advantage of ILP. I’ve found that many teens and many foster care workers don’t understand that distinction. There are all sorts of information here: https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/outofhome/independent/

      He may have to go back to his former caseworker to get the contact info for his local representative for ILP.

      There are more resources here: http://agingoutinstitute.com/general-resources/

      One of the biggest resource for these teens is to have caring adults in their lives. So, it’s good that your friend is there for this teen. One of the things your friend could do is help link the teen up with other adults that would be good mentors and friends. Here in the rural South, churches are a good place for that but if they live in a city, they might try looking for a meetup group for one of the teen’s hobbies.

    8. TCO*

      Definitely check with his college. Some of my local community colleges see so many students like this that they have support staff specifically to help with housing, benefits, etc. He might also benefit from contacting any local programs that serve homeless youth. Many of them work with clients up to age 21 or even beyond. They might be able to connect him to housing, public benefits like food support or health insurance, etc.

    9. Amtelope*

      Has he applied for financial aid? He should be eligible for a Pell Grant, and there may also be a state scholarship or tuition waiver for kids who were in foster care — check into that for your state. Foster Care to Success has a scholarship program and resources: http://www.fc2success.org/ He probably can’t get financial aid at this point for this semester, but his community college may have emergency financial aid available. It’s worth contacting their financial aid office and explaining his situation.

      I’d also look for organizations in your community that provide low-income housing. Depending on where you live, those organizations or government offices may be helpful or completely unhelpful, but it’s worth trying to see if he can get some assistance in finding an affordable place to live. Food banks can help with food. Going to school full-time while working is tough, but it can be done, especially if he can find a place to live that isn’t super expensive. If you belong to a church, or have an extensive social network, it might be worth putting the word out to see if anyone has a room they would be willing to rent for a reasonable price.

    11. Hedgehog*

      Depending on the state/county he’s in, there should be specific resources he can access, including rent and educational assistance. He may have to opt-in to extended foster care (18-21) in order to receive assistance, but it should help open some doors for him. Also depending on the state, he can look into contacting agencies that work in foster-care adoption and they should be able to get him a lot of advice around his specific circumstances. I work at an agency that specializes in adoption work with teens in foster care and we field these sorts of questions fairly often.

    12. Loose Seal*

      I left another reply but there are links so it may take a while to show up but I had another thought in the meantime.

      Under the ACA, this teen is eligible for Medicaid up to age 26. I know young adults many times don’t think of health insurance but if your friend could help this youth navigate Social Security to get linked up with that.

      Also, someone needs to take him to a nearby bank and buy him a safe deposit box pronto. When you’re couch surfing, it’s easy to leave behind your important documents. Hopefully, when he aged out, he was provided with a copy of his birth certificate and other documents that those of us not in foster care call our parents when we need (the foster care worker is required by law to do get these documents). If the youth doesn’t have them, your friend could help him get those.

      1. TootsNYC*

        And, your friend could help him organize himself so that he’s got one copy in the safe deposit box, and one to carry around. And maybe even one to “plant” with some stable adult who would be willing to hold them for him.

        You can get notarized copies of all those sorts of things, but you have to be organized to do it. The right notary public might even be willing to waive the fee (though it’s not expensive) for someone like him.

    13. Alison Read*

      This is a question that requires more of a regional answer; look to find a private agency that coordinate government benefits for those with disabilities. They should be able to direct your friend to resources in the community available to young adults aged out of the foster care system.

      It sucks, but the best way to navigate this is to start off with, “I’m not sure where to turn, I’m hoping you might be able to help me….” I hate that that tact gets more traction than explaining your situation matter of factly.

      Additionally, a quick Google search came up with organizations dedicated to scholarships for foster kids, that would be someplace to ask for direction from (as well as suggestions for resources).

    14. A Teacher*

      The financial aid office at his college will have resources or contacts that can help him. He may qualify for the FSEOG grant–which given his circumstances, he probably receives Pell grant. Every year, we get the spiel from our financial aid office to send students in desperate need to them so they can help if needed. Kudos to your friend for helping.

    15. Observer*

      If your city has a 311 or 211 system, call and see what city / state services are available. In New York, there are a few umbrella organizations that might be able to point you to help as well. UJA Federation, Met Council, Catholic Charities and United Way are the names that come to mind. And the first three all offer help, no questions about religion or faith asked.

    16. NacSacJack*

      I hesitate to say this but is anyone interested in adopting him? People over the age of 18 can be adopted. I just found out in my state you can be adopted up to 21 if in foster care. New to this whole adoption process.

      1. Loose Seal*

        Yes, it’s true that one can be adopted as an adult. I believe it can be done up to any age but the process is different if the adoptee is older than what the state has designated for foster youth (18 in some states, 21 in others). However, the young man might not want to be adopted. I worked with a lot of aging out teens and I only had one that was interested in being adopted. But one can have a family-like setting without adoption being on the table.

    17. A New Manager*

      Depending on what state your child social services department is based in, they should have resources for children who age out of care. It just requires the youth who aged out to contact them to access those resources. That is where I would start. (I work for the Dept. of Family & Protective Services – specifically Child Protective Services – in Texas.)

  12. Courtney*

    Thanks for all the responses last week. I talked to my sister and most of the issues are with her current company but some are inherent to her field. She’s leaning towards a career change but is going to try another position in her field first then go from there.

    Unfortunately her job has really got her down. I think getting out of there will help her a lot though.

  13. ACA*

    Getting used to a non-dysfunctional work environment with a boss who is kind and reasonable is harder than I expected – I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop! It’s not imposter syndrome, exactly, but I keep thinking, “Everyone’s treating me like a valuable member of the team and like I actually have worth as a person…can this be real? Am I on Candid Camera?” Now that I’m out, I’m realizing exactly how much back-to-back toxic jobs have warped my view of things.

    1. Maxwell Edison*

      I hear ya. I escaped a toxic job that had me paranoid and second-guessing everything by the end. At times I’ve found myself slipping back into that mode; a client will praise me and my work and I’m thinking, “Yeah, but what are they REALLY saying?”

    2. Anx*

      I can relahttps://www.askamanager.org/2015/09/open-thread-september-18-2015.html/feedted to this a little bit. It actually made me more nervous at first.

    3. lfi*

      Same here. My new boss frequently tells me that she’s so happy I’m here and joined the team. My boss’ boss emailed me and said the exact same thing.

      I came from having a boss who could get very emotionally charged and react without thinking… so this is nice. As is being salaried again. ;)

    4. Allison*

      Been there! Actually, I’m still there, sadly.

      My first job went sour, so ever since then any time I’m 5-6 months into my job I’m like “this is it, they’re going to take a closer look at my work and realize I suck, then pretend everything’s fine until the problem is so bad they have no choice but to let me go!” Any time I hear whispering I think “they’re trying to figure out what to do about me, I just know it”

      That hasn’t happened yet. I’m on my second job since getting fired from that first one, and I haven’t heard any complaints about my performance or attitude from either one.

    5. Ama*

      Oh, totally. I’m two and a half years out of my toxic environment and things are much better, but I still occasionally catch myself feeling like I’m going to get blindsided by a complaint or catastrophe. But yeah, it’s the weirdest thing being appreciated and recognized for your hard work when you’ve been somewhere that never seemed to realize how much was on your plate (or in my old employer’s case, actually said I was exaggerating when I provided very accurate documentation on how much certain responsibilities had grown).

  14. Conflicted*

    Time sensitive because my review is coming up next week and I want opinions before I go into it. :)

    How can I explain why I want a raise without bad mouthing my manager? Back story: my previous manager had been training me for a year to take on her job, and when she did leave , I applied, and ultimately the job was given to someone else in the company who had been there longer, despite me having more experience in the field. I was told they thought I was too young to get the position. I was of coarse upset but I acted professional and welcomed the new manager with open arms. We get along, but she has made it clear she is not interested in the field. I also feel like she is taking advantage of the fact that I was trained already to do her job, and has effectively switched roles with me; so I have been doing most of the manager duties while she has taken some of mine, but only some. She has also only been here 2 months and has called out or left early once or twice a week every week. . My workload has doubled; and I really would like to ask for a raise, but how can I mention why I deserve a raise without it seeming like I am “tattling” on her for not doing her work? I do not want to damage our relationship, and I do not want to come across as bitter. I honestly enjoy the manager work more to be honest, because I find it more challenging, but I find it kind of discouraging that I wasn’t good enough to have the title but I am good enough to do all the work.

    1. LBK*

      Is the manager in question the one you’d be asking for the raise? I think you can still be straightforward and list the responsibilities you’re covering that are above and beyond the normal duties of your role. It’s pretty normal for some of those responsibilities to include things your manager might usually handle, particularly if you’ve been/are being groomed to move up – it can even make your manager look good to be delegating and sharing high-profile responsibilities since it shows they’re dedicated to developing their employees.

      The only way she’ll take it as a slight is if your tone implies it’s meant to be – you can say “I’ve handled new hire training for the last 3 people that were brought on” in many ways, some of which will sound confident and happy about contributing to the department and some of which will sound whiny and bitter. You say yourself that you like the work, so go into it with that mindset and try to put all the frustration about not getting the position out of your mind so it doesn’t sneak into your voice.

      1. LBK*

        Also, I know this wasn’t your question, but I would try to reposition your situation mentally from “She got the job and now she can’t even do it without my help” to “She got the job but acknowledges that I’m a really smart and valuable asset to the department so she’s showing appreciation by letting me continue to handle higher-level tasks”. It can certainly be frustrating to do that without the title, pay or official authority, but the longer you do this, the better your resume looks for the next promotion you go for.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Not “she’s showing appreciation”–but “she’s relying on me.”

          it’s not a thank-you; it’s that you are one of her assets, one of her “tools,” and she is utilizing that to the max. It’s smart of a manager, actually, to do that–but since you are acting as a defacto deputy, it’s appropriate for you to be paid like that.

    2. Kyrielle*

      Honestly? I think you want to make the case because of “increasing responsibility” and specific successes, and list some of those duties. Among other things, if she’s not interested in the field, she may well leave after a year or two for something she wants to do more…and having done so much of the work under her, you will be in a perfect position to ask for the job again, now with more experience to point to….

    3. Hlyssande*

      I would suggest sitting down and writing out a list of all the things you’re actually responsible for and accomplish. That should help you get a good handle on everything you do and provide a solid base for negotiating.

      I did it last year in prep for a yearly review and it really helped me feel less panicked about it (thanks, imposter syndrome).

    4. JGray*

      I agree with the other posters that you need to sit down and write out the things that you are doing above & beyond your job duties. I think that is the only way to negotiate a raise. And also take the time to prepare so that you don’t come off as insulting your manager. Perhaps practice with a friend on how you say things. I am not implying that you will be insulting to your manager but sometimes based on how we are treated we act/talk a certain way even without realizing we are doing it. If you practice with a friend than perhaps the friend can help you avoid that pitfall and sound more neutral when you talk to your manager.

  15. Contractor-Turning-Fed*

    A question on etiquette: I am a contractor looking to apply to a fed position in the same agency but a different department…because of my contracting, my ‘boss’ (ie, the fed person who gives me work to do) and my ‘manager’ (ie, the company person who approves my leave) are in completely different companies/circles.

    So…when do I tell my boss that I’m considering leaving? There is no chance for him to push me out, since he doesn’t really have contact with my company, but he will find out after I apply because of the federal system. My boss is very vocal about how much he appreciates and needs me, but my company just isn’t that good. So do I tell him before I apply? Or hope I make the cut and then he finds out that way?

    1. Kyrielle*

      I would personally tell him before you apply, in part because he might speak up for you. If there’s a place for that in the federal hiring system, which I understand is way more structured than what I’m used to.

    2. Vorthys*

      It differs depending on agency/contract/many things and this is my view as a contractor, but I’d only broach it if things were actively moving forward in the process and you were gearing up for a hand off as you put your notice in with your company. Fed hiring is plenty slow, and not involving your poc allows them to avoid the appearance of poaching you.

    3. AnotherFed*

      If your boss is actually going to see you in the system, then definitely tell him – that means he’s close enough to have some ability to put in an informal recommendation for you or help you play buzzword bingo on USAjobs, even if he can’t serve as a formal reference for whatever reason. In most cases, a supervisor does not actually see everything in the system unless they’re in HR and would only get your info if you’re applying to something they are hiring for (or are joining the big pool of entry level people, but again, no one goes through that just for kicks rather than an active need to hire).

      Consider giving your manager a heads up, too – if your boss or someone else on the fed side slips up with the wrong person or mixes up dates and asks for a replacement too soon, your manager might find out from someone other than you. Most support contractors recognize that they’re going to lose people to government jobs and are pretty understanding of that fact.

  16. GigglyPuff*

    It hasn’t been one of those days, it’s been one of those weeks. Yesterday was a first, thinking about alcohol before noon days.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      On those days, I think about the scene in 9 to 5 when all the fed-up workers storm out because they need a drink. It makes me feel better.

    4. Joie de Vivre*

      Actually had a job once where there was a bottle of Bailey’s in the desk drawer and on rough days the morning coffee would get a boost.
      In retrospect, not really a constructive way to manage stress.

    6. Alison with one L*

      I feel ya. I’ve said multiple times that IF anything would actually make me start drinking (don’t and never have), this is probably the week that would do it. Sending hugs and chocolate. :)

    7. cuppa*

      It wasn’t one of those days for me yet, but I told a co-worker, “you should get a drink for that” this morning :)

  17. Still at the office*

    Mainly venting today – my project manager is being unreasonable and I don’t know what to do. We have a deadline next Friday, so she wants to see a draft of everything we are submitting by 10 am Monday. She announced this YESTERDAY with an note saying “the scheduling is up to you – either stay late or come in this weekend.” The team was here until 9:30 last night, we came in at 8:30 this morning and she keeps adding more and more notes and corrections on top of what we’re already struggling to finish. She leaves early on Fridays for Shabbat, and I’m really afraid she’s going to dump another load of markups on my desk at 4 pm Friday.
    Has anyone told a supervisor that the work they’ve assigned isn’t humanly possible in the given time?

    1. Introvert at work*

      Since PMs are supposed to manage a project (allegedly), I’d ask why are these quick turnarounds and heroics are needed? A PM is ideally supposed to set realistic goals and expectations to make a project successful.

      I would ask why such a quick turnaround is needed. Then tell the PM: I will do my best given the tight turnaround, but such a quick turnaround has the potential to affect quality. This is PM 101.

      1. Thinking out loud*

        +1. “The team has been working really hard on this already and doesn’t have the ability to surge more. We can get you a product Monday if you really need to review the whole thing, but [identify some ways that you could reduce quality but still live with the product]. Maybe it would be better if we have a tag-up Monday so that we can show you what we have and the direction were planning to go, and then we’ll get you the final product by COB Wednesday and you can review Thursday – does that work for you?

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I am not a project manager, but I am responsible for managing my projects and team– and I get completely freaked out every September around the Jewish holidays. I’m not excusing her by any means– she should have planned for this better– but I would bet she’s panicking because she’ll be out much of Tuesday and all of Wednesday. Say what Introvert suggests above.

  18. Eric*

    I started a new job three weeks ago, and yesterday, my supervisor informed that because of a reorg she’d no longer be my supervisor, and I’d be getting a new one that has never supervised anyone before. I’m not sure how to take this. On the one hand, I’m brand new and so losing this supervisor doesn’t seem like the end of the world. On the other hand, in the limited interaction I’ve had with her so far, I liked her! Also worried about what this kind of reorg means for the future—my supervisor did say that the company likes to reorg a lot (it’s not financial though—we’re doing well.) Thoughts?

    1. Healthcare*

      I had that happen to me. Almost the exact same timing, actually. It turned out great. I liked the new manager a lot. There usually is a reason there is a new manager and the new person in the role was chosen for merit.

    2. TCO*

      You could end up with a great manager. You could also ask your current manager, or others you admire, to help mentor you. For instance, would your current manager be open to a short meeting once a month to share her insight on your company and department? That would be a way to stay connected and keep benefitting from her expertise.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like you will be okay here. I had a job where I went through five bosses in four months. My biggest concern was how do I get an eval that is fair. It did not have to be all positives, it just had to be fair. I did get a fair and positive evaluation.
      Do you have a peer who is kind of mentoring you? If no, ask the exiting supervisor who she recommends you go to with questions. She might know something about the new supervisor so keep your ears peeled for any comments she may have.
      I guess mainly I would just find out what resources I have available to do my work- phone lists or email lists are good. If you have any major stumbling blocks start figuring out how to break down those blocks now. And definitely know who you would contact if you had a personal emergency and needed to call in or leave early.

  19. TCO*

    Vent: my employer (a large university) reclassified my team’s jobs this week, and many of us were “demoted” into a lower classification. Our pay won’t change, but our benefits are being cut in half and our schedule restructured.

    No one knew this was going to happen, not even our management, and the changes take effect in six weeks. Figuring out what this means for our department and what our options are has been such a demoralizing distraction for all of us this week. Our department’s management is very upset and is taking this very seriously, but I can’t believe how much our university and their expensive consultants screwed up this process and communication. The worst part is that they’ve been slowly reclassifying departments for the past couple of years, so I can’t figure out how they’re still making fundamental communication mistakes.

    Argh.

    1. Hlyssande*

      I disagree that this isn’t a pay cut. Cutting your benefits in half totally amounts to a cut in your pay/overall compensation.

      I’m sorry this happened. It sounds like a terrible situation all around.

      1. TCO*

        We’ve been calling it a loss in compensation (and a big one). Our salaries are the same, but those lost benefits have real financial implications. Fortunately our managers completely understand that. These benefits are a huge draw/perk here, so they realize just how significant it is to lose them.

        1. Hlyssande*

          I’m so glad that your direct management understands! It sounds like they’re really trying to go to bat for you as much as they can, which is great.

          This sucks so bad for you, though. :(

    2. BRR*

      I’ve posted this same comment before but it sounds like they’re asking for an entire department to leave all at once.

      1. TCO*

        Exactly, which is part of why our managers are so concerned! They’d be in big trouble if even some of us decided to leave over this.

    3. Ama*

      I spent almost nine years in admin at a large university and “fundamental communication mistakes” was pretty much standard operating procedure there. But this sucks, and I’m sorry.

  20. Introvert at work*

    I’ve boned up on talkative co-workers before posting, but I’m trying to avoid the blow by blow of a coworker’s separation/divorce without seeming like an unsympathetic a-hole or not being a team player. (I’m a contractor, this person is full-time, but this person really doesn’t have a whole of of influence.) We aren’t really busy right now, and when pressed, I’ll lend a sympathetic ear,then try to stir the conversation back to something else like work (and this is after a good 15-30 minutes of hearing every detail). Otherwise, I just bow out of the conversation and I’d frankly rather be doing anything else, like surfing eBay for stupid things or stabbing a fork in my eye. She can wrangle someone else into 2+ hours/day of divor-convo (who doesn’t seem to mind).

    This is a person who thinks they’re pretty great, touts themselves as da bomb, yet doesn’t realize that others think this person’s work isn’t up to par, and this situation may be in their favor for keeping their job for awhile to boot. I’ve even provided feedback at this person’s request and saw for myself that this person’s work is not up to snuff, yet this person will then think that I’m not getting the rationale for what they’ve done.

    So, any thoughts on how to best handle this situation?

    1. Winter is Coming*

      I have a similar type of co-worker (she is a good worker overall though, so there we differ). Here’s my suggestion — have a “project,” real or not, on hand so that when she starts talking, you can “mm-hmm” a few times, then say, “Gosh Catelyn, I’m going to have to catch up with you later on this…I’m working on XYZ and have to get it finished this afternoon/by lunch/by 3 or whatever. So sorry!” Hopefully by then she will have moved on to some other poor sucker. I am notoriously bad at shutting down these types of folks, so am just starting to figure it out myself. The trick is not to let them get too far into it, or else it feels weird to just cut them off in the middle of a sentence. Which I should have no problem doing, but I do. Might work for you, good luck!! I must say it gets easier every time I do it.

    2. fposte*

      “Sorry, Jane, I’m trying to focus better on work these days–I gotta get back to it.” Whether she’s great or not or as great as she thinks she is doesn’t really factor in. You just need to get out of the convo.

    3. afiendishthingy*

      Are other coworkers sitting in the same area? Are these one-on-one conversations or is she kind of addressing anyone within earshot? I would wear headphones and let other people handle her, if possible. If not I would try to redirect much earlier in the conversation. Ok, your workload isn’t heavy at the moment but maybe you need to plan your menus for the next year, or listen to your Conversational Mandarin podcast, or work on your screenplay, all of which require your FULL ATTENTION. Or you could tell her you’re not comfortable hearing all the gory details. You could say it brings up unpleasant memories about some unpleasant break up in your past, although you shouldn’t really need an excuse to just NOT WANT TO HEAR IT. You could also suggest an EAP. But to be totally honest I would probably be the one hiding from her whenever possible.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “Gee, Jane, that sounds terrible. Have you thought about trying the company’s EAP?”

      Some complainers do not like a redirect that involves something they should do. It interfers with their complaints.
      She does have a heavy duty problem, but work can be a time out from that issue, if she allows it to be.

      You could just say, “That sounds awful. What is your action plan to help yourself through this?” Once you have said that, you can just go back to it the next time she starts talking about it. “Hmmm. Terrible situation. How’s that action plan coming along?”

    5. Clever Name*

      Ugh. Talkative coworkers. Can you wear headphones? I’ve had talkative coworkers who just liked to chat all day, and I’d really prefer not to (and I can’t analyze data or write and shoot the shit at the same time either), so I’ve taken to wearing headphones.

      Otherwise saying you’re on a deadline and can’t talk just now are good options. Alison has written several posts about how to shut down chatty coworkers.

  21. early job hunting*

    I am in a role that I probably should have bailed on and had it been a not-on-my-resume oops. However, things looked good to stick it out for a year, especially since at the year mark, there is going to be a Big Change, the kind of thing people quit for without having extenuating circumstances. Until my boss quit and things could get dicey very fast. Any advice for the long term ramp up when you know you won’t make it past a certain date, plus putting things kind of in the spotlight because, well, things could get untenable very, very quickly. In these kinds of situations in the past, the whole team could be gone in a month. Which, depending on how it goes, could be a good enough thing that I might even be able to stick out past the Big Change. But since I am thinking about going contract or freelance, since I get very tired of things at the 6 month mark, so I feel like I need to really plan ahead, and this huge upset could ruin all those plans. What should I prioritize? Learning skills vs preparing for interviews/resume brush up?

    tl;dr, preparing for huge uncertainties while also ramping up a Big Hunt/transition to freelance. Thanks!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I would probably try to do both. But I would make a strategic plan first. Learn the skills that will be an asset to you. Don’t waste precious time on things that do not get you a substatial reward.
      Next, I would very carefully think through where I would apply for jobs. Again, be deliberate, pick places that seem to offer stable, decent work environments.

      It’s the time you spend planning your next steps, that will save you time in the long run and make each step something meaningful for you. This could be as simple as each weekend you decide which companies you will apply to for the upcoming week (just a couple, keep this doable) and which skills you will learn or start to learn for the upcoming week. Again, keep your lists short and keep them doable.

    2. I'm a Little Teapot*

      Would you be doing the same work as a freelancer, or something else? Because if you’d be doing the same work, I imagine brushing up your skills would also be a good part of interview and job search prep.

      Also, would it be possible to find a contract position for now and decide once it’s up whether to launch a freelance career or to find another perm job? It’s hard to make major life decisions in the midst of a chaotic changing workplace.

  22. The Cosmic Avenger*

    First, the good news. Then, the plea for advice.

    The good news: I think I rocked my interview! It felt great. Better yet, I used Alison’s How to Prepare for a Job Interview guide, including her “superstar” question (if you don’t know what that is, read/listen to her guide). Not only were the interviewers impressed, but ALL the things they mentioned were things I had been emphasizing previously in answering interview questions!

    So, my plea for advice. I dashed off a thank-you email when I got home. tl;dr version, I had to guess at the name/email for one interviewer, got it wrong, sent a second email to the actual third interviewer and copied the first two. I apologized to the first two for sending it twice to them, but I said that I wanted them to realize that I had noticed my error in the first message. So, how bad is that? IMO, if there’s an absolute clone of me and we’re perfectly even, that might edge me out, but otherwise it should be too small of an issue to matter.

    3. BRR*

      Not a big deal. If you had to guess because it’s not public/they didn’t give you their card you’re fine.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Actually, they’re all in the public directory, but the email I mistakenly used had the same first name pronounciation as one of my interviewers, and it looked like they were the same division in the directory. But I realized later that the person I interviewed with uses a very unusual spelling, which is why I didn’t spot them the first time I tried to look them up.

        (The public directory gave me 4 exact matches to the more common spelling I used, and 50 fuzzy matches most of which could possibly have been correct if I misheard her name somewhat.)

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Thanks! Mostly I wanted to justify…er, explain to someone (other than my wife) why I screwed it up! :D

  23. Completely Anon*

    So a strange thing happened. Today is out payday and my direct deposit is showing as processing which is normal. Now the person who runs payroll talked to one of the bosses and looked sad. I asked what was wrong and he said “If my paycheck comes back out of my account tomorrow I’m quitting”.

    I knew the company was having some difficulties but am hoping my paycheck doesn’t get debited back out.

    2. Kelly White*

      I worked at a place where I was advised to go to the bank at lunch and CASH my paycheck, because there was a very good chance that not all the checks would cash.

      My advice- start looking, and get out as fast as you can!

      1. Completely Anon*

        That sounds awful. A chance not all the checks would cash? Wow.

        I will be looking for sure. Not good signs at all.

    3. Rebecca*

      That happened to me before. I had no idea it could happen (looked like it had gone in fine) but then a couple of days later I had overdraft fees. And it happened again a couple of months later. The company did pay me, but I should have run like hell!

  24. Stephanie*

    I have an interview! So I’ve only been in my current role two months and at my company since December. The reason I’m still looking is because I’m at 0.7 FTE and the pay is horrible. (Yeah, I’m one of those people who took the part-time job as the stop gap after being out of work.)

    (1) How would I explain wanting to leave so soon without looking like a job hopper? Unfortunately, I do have an extended period of unemployment and my longest tenure has been two years. The chief reason I’m looking is the pay. To a lesser extent, I’m also looking due to the hours (I’m on nights) and I’m meh on the company culture. There is a chance I could be promoted out the role, but I’m picking up that a promotion and raise are pretty far down the line.

    (2) Job is in a different city. I’m fine traveling, except current job has a rule that we can’t take any vacation the first six months. We have a few discretionary days, but I’m unsure if I can use those yet (asked my HR rep and she sent me a kind of passive aggressive email back telling me to ask my boss…who then didn’t know and told me to ask HR). So how would I handle the travel question?

    3. Malissa*

      If new job is better suited to your degree you can cite that as well. I’d just ask your boss for the day say you had something come up that requires you to be out and you’ll need the day off. If he scoffs then you’ll need a cover story, but often the question never comes up.

    4. Stephanie*

      Ok, update:
      Had interview. He didn’t really press why I wanted to leave so soon, especially after I mentioned my hours and limited room for advancement. He was more curious about my interest in the role.

      He sent me an assignment to complete, so I guess that’s a good sign. :)

  25. Clothing*

    I work in an office where men are allowed to wear jeans every day but the women are never allowed to even on Fridays. Some of the women do the same job as the men and many times we all have to go to the warehouse and get a little dirty. It’s not a huge deal but it does feel a little sexist, I’m interested to hear what others think of this.

      1. Clothing*

        Not sure what the reasoning is but we (only us two women in our section) both asked if we could wear jeans on Fridays when we first started and were both told no we could never wear jeans. We didn’t really ask why we couldn’t: The other lady does the same job as one of the guys I have a completely different function than almost everyone though.

        1. TCO*

          Have you pointed out this pattern to your boss? “It seems that all of the men are allowed to wear jeans, but as the only women Lucinda and I aren’t allowed to. Our jobs all require us to spend some time in the warehouse and formal businesswear just isn’t appropriate for that setting. Can you explain the policy to me further?”

          1. Clothing*

            No, my boss is in another office and it’s not really my hill to die on I’m more asking for my coworker because she’s out there everyday where as I’m only out there occasionally. I know she spoke to the big boss here and he wouldn’t give her anything else besides “no we just don’t do that”. I’m afraid making a big stink about it will cause the men to have to wear slacks and then this will cause resentment.

            Curious about what others think about the situation and thank you everyone for your replies.

            Sorry for typos! I’m on my phone.

            1. Naomi*

              I get not wanting to upset your male coworkers by getting their dress code restricted… but, um, isn’t the current situation causing resentment among female coworkers? If banning jeans entirely would draw complaints from the men, then women in the same job have equal grounds to complain about not being allowed to wear them in the first place. (Also, it sounds like jeans are more practical for this job, so restricting everyone’s dress code would be a supremely silly “solution”.)

              That said, your boss’ reaction makes me worry that he’s hung up on “we must do things the way they have always been done and not make changes ever”, so he might not be open to reason.

            2. CMart*

              I don’t know if you’ll see this, since it’s a pretty late response, but I figured I’d try!

              Have you and the other woman mere been *told* you can’t wear jeans? Have you tried wearing jeans and been reprimanded for it, or have neither of you been that brave?

              I ask, because the discussions with the bosses sound very much like a conversation I had with a landlord a number of years ago. We were doing the final walkthrough of my new apartment and when we went out to the back deck I saw the neighbors had a grill. “Oh! So we *can* have grills here? The lease said they weren’t allowed.”

              “No,” she said. “No grills. It’s a fire hazard.”

              We stood there in silence for a few seconds while my eyes darted between the neighbor’s grill and my new landlord. “But… they have a grill.” I looked up. “And so do both of the upstairs neighbors.”

              “No grills. They aren’t allowed,” she repeated.

              Everyone still had a grill. No one ever got in any sort of trouble.

              Perhaps “all the men wear jeans all the time” is a similar thing. Jeans aren’t allowed. No siree.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Yeah, this feels a lot sexist, not just a little (Unless there’s something I’m missing, like all the men have the same type of position and all the women had another.)

    5. Lillian McGee*

      If the only reason they can’t wear jeans is that they are women, that’s a problem. A huge problem, actually.

      2. Natalie*

        Might still be a problem even if they have a putative reason, if that reason isn’t a bona fide business need. The EEOC takes disparate impact into account.

        1. Clothing*

          Natalie can you tell me more? Is something like this eeoc worthy? (Sorry if I sound uneducated I really have no idea)

          1. Natalie*

            I would probably bring it up to them first. I think Alison has some posts about bringing up legal violations to your company, but the short version is you want to sound collaborative (“this could get us in trouble”) rather than combative (“you’re breaking the law and I’m going to get you in trouble”).

            Or just starts wearing jeans on Fridays and see if anyone tells you not too!

    10. Lily in NYC*

      I think you should send this in to Alison – it would make for a very interesting thread. Feels very sexist to me!

    11. Mockingjay*

      Dress codes should fit the work, not the gender.

      Your company dress code should be something like this.
      Warehouse work: ALL staff are required to wear safety shoes and coveralls or sturdy pants (twill, denim).
      Offices/cubicles: ALL staff should follow Business or Business Casual (select one). Denim may be worn only on Fridays (“Casual Friday”).

    13. HRish Dude*

      Is this in the US? Because this is one of those “Is this legal?” questions where the answer is “no”.

    14. Katie the Fed*

      For this I would probably just go ahead and wear jeans. If asked I’d say “oh, well the men in the same jobs are allowed to and I’d hate for us to look like we’re making policies based on gender.”

      1. SherryD*

        +1

        I work in a blue collar facility that includes male workers and managers who have been there 30+ years. Sometimes, they’re a little old-fashioned. To call a spade a spade, they are, at times, sexist.

        In your situation, I would totally wear jeans on casual Friday, and not even ask for permission. Katie the Fed has the perfect line for dealing with any blowback.

    15. JGray*

      You can’t treat the same type of employees (i.e. full time, part time, full time seasonal) different based on a protected classification (in this case male vs. female). In order for the no jeans policy to be correct they would have to ban the jeans for everyone. I know that another commentor mention the EEOC which is good place to start because it sounds like the company doesn’t care or realize that what they are doing is illegal.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        For REAL. I know it’s just pants but I still think it’s a pretty big deal. It’s rigoddamndiculous.

    17. BrownN*

      Could they be thinking “skinny” jeans? Trying to figure this out and not doing a good job.

      Has anyone asked if you can wear any pants at all? Can you substitute cotton twill pants, what I call uniform pants.

    18. TootsNYC*

      Point out that this means the women are risking their decent clothes. That jeans are way more durable and stand up to washing better.

      And that proper attire, in terms of durability and practicality and SAFETY should be continent on job duties, not gender.

      So I can see them saying, “You don’t go to the warehouse and lug boxes, so you can’t wear jeans.” But the lady who does the same job needs to be able to do so.

      (And some states have laws the prohibit discrimination based on sex. I’d call the state labor department, just out of curiosity.)

    19. A New Manager*

      Yeah, I’d be contacting your Civil Rights Department and filing a formal complaint based on your protected class (sex).

  26. RG*

    OK, so I am applying for a job where instead of emailing or uploading my resume, I am submitting a link to my resume. I’m hoping that you guys can provide some insight into formatting – particularly length. Does the one page rule change slightly because it’s online? Can I provide a link to my projects that are online in the resume, or is that still out?

    1. Stella Maris*

      I would turn my resume into a PDF. The length and formatting won’t be affected and the interviewer can easily print it out! And you can have links in a PDF.

  27. Rye-Ann*

    I got offered a job this week! It will be my first real professional job, so this is really great for me! It was so unexpected – originally, I was rejected after interviewing. But last week, it was re-posted, so I reiterated my interest. The offer came swiftly thereafter!

    Technically, it is contingent upon the results of a background and reference check. There’s no reason I should fail either – I have no criminal record, my driving record is clean (never been pulled over), I’ve never declared bankruptcy, I’m not in debt, I have the degrees I said I do, and my references do like me. Still, my brain is very literal some times, so there’s still that little voice that says “Well TECHNICALLY they could take it away from you still” and I’ve been kinda nervous all week. Still, they really are treating it as a formality – I was already sent all of the pre-first-day paperwork to fill out, and it’s pretty extensive.

    Also, I’m supposed to come in at some point before day 1 to present my documents for the I-9, but the person I’ve e-mailed about when I should come in isn’t getting back to me. My boyfriend is insisting that I can just show up if they don’t get back to me by next week, but I really doubt it. It seems like the sort of thing they want to prepare for, and you can’t enter the building without a card.

    I guess, basically, even though I should just be super excited about this (and I am), I’m also just feeling SUPER nervous about every little thing. :\

    1. Healthcare*

      In my experience, a reference check has always resulted in a job offer. There are exceptions to that rule, but I have never had a reference check go poorly (knock on wood).

      You’ll most likely get an offer. Congrats!

      1. Rye-Ann*

        Thanks! Actually, the situation is that I already HAVE an offer, as stated in an offer letter, including start date, salary, and other details. I accepted the offer. But the letter states that it is “contingent upon a background & reference check” so that’s what they’re doing now.

        1. Dawn*

          Basically in my experience that means that they really really like you and really really want you and unless something comes up on your background/reference check that is hellah sketchy then they’re gonna go ahead and bring you on board. Don’t worry about it.

          Don’t just show up with the I-9 documentation, that’s rude. Wait to hear back from them on it- the ball is in THEIR court on this one because you have something they want and the onus is on them to make sure they get it from you prior to your first day. If you haven’t heard from anyone regarding bringing it by before they schedule your first day, then use that chance (when they contact you to schedule your first day) to bring it up again.

          1. Rye-Ann*

            :D Thanks. Fortunately, my name is somewhat unusual (though, middle name excluded, Google suggests that there are a few others, but I’m pretty sure I’m the only one in my state & with my middle name).

            That’s what I thought – thanks! I already do know when my start date is, though. I guess I can just try calling them if it starts getting really close and I haven’t heard from them.

            1. F.*

              Background checks use more than just your name. Your Social Security Number (in the USA), driver’s license number, and address are all used to identify you. I echo the advice not to just show up with your I-9 documents. I am an HR Manager and have a certain timeframe protocol I use to communicate with people I will be bringing on board. Since they are running your background check prior to your first day, they are probably waiting for results, which can take a few days (up to a week, if you have lived many placed in the timeframe they are looking at). Check your email for a message from them. I send a “What to expect on your first day at ABC Co.” email telling new hires where to park, what to wear (for our field personnel who need safety boots), what to bring (including the I-9 docs, photo ID, etc.) and even what’s available in the area for lunch (and mentioning that we have a refrigerator and microwave if they want to bring their lunch). I also let them know they will be completing paperwork, attending safety orientation, going for their drug testing, and possibly beginning training, if time permits. The goal is to make our new hires feel as comfortable and welcome as possible. Check your email (and your spam folder). They’ll be in touch.

              1. Rye-Ann*

                Hmm, that makes sense, especially since the person I’ve been in contact with has been pretty good about e-mail otherwise. Thanks – I will definitely keep a look out! :)

              2. Arjay*

                I wish everyone did this. My new hire orientations have been ok, but very rarely address when, where, or if I’m going to have the opportunity to eat lunch. :)

        2. Healthcare*

          Oh, unless you have an evil twin who has decided to sabotage your job search by ruining your name, you’re set. Congrats again!

    2. Sunflower*

      As someone who just went through this I TOTALLY GET IT. I was in the same boat- offer letter, salary, start date. They sent me the forms and documents I had to sign(sexual harassment policies, etc) and it was contingent on background check. I freaking out the entire time because I was so excited about the job and it seemed so great(esp in relation to the hell that was my old job) that I kept thinking ‘something’s going to go wrong’. Everything went fine but i was freaking out until I got that email that said everything is cleared.

      Don’t just show up. I would email once a week until the start date then maybe a few days before. If they don’t get back to you, just show up the first day with it. Congrats!

      1. Rye-Ann*

        Good to hear I’m not the only one. I really hope they do actually tell me that I am officially all set, haha. Congratulations on your job too!

        And yeah, it sounds like the consensus here is that I shouldn’t just show up, so I am not going to do that. Thanks!

      2. nerfmobile*

        The I-9 documentation is not required (legally) to be done before you start work, so it doesn’t have to happen in advance. If they aren’t in touch about that specifically before your first day of work, just bring it in with you then.

    3. bridget*

      I know how you feel – my nose is squeaky clean, but every time I have to submit my fingerprints for an FBI background check (which has happened 2-3 times and is sort of common in my field), I’m just SURE that this time there will have been some crazy coincidence where my fingerprints are at the scene of a grisly murder, or something.

    4. Lindsay J*

      I’m always worried about things like this.

      I’m currently waiting to hear whether I’ve been approved for an apartment. This apartment complex pretty much advertises on Craiglist that they’ll take anyone regardless of broken leases, bad credit, etc. I talked to the leasing agent about my situation and she told me it should be no problem. I’m still nervous about it. Same for when I went to finance my car.

      I finally relax and get excited once it actually happens.

      I wouldn’t show up for the I-9 stuff until they get back to you. It only takes like 2 seconds to do, but someone has to be available to do it. And especially if you have to get swiped into the building you don’t want to go there and wind up stuck outside because nobody is expecting you to be there.

  28. Shell*

    What are your petty grievances about work? You know, the ones where you understand “wow, if this is the worst I have to put up with I have it pretty damn good”, the ones that don’t actually affect how you do your job in any substantial way but still grates on you?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Well, this actually isn’t petty but: I work in direct human services (a social worker-type role) and my clients can be a pain in the ass. Many of them don’t treat me with the type of professionalism/respect I assume they give doctors, etc. and likewise, feel a weird sense of entitlement. (For example some get REALLY riled up if the meeting starts literally 2 minutes late.) Also, many show up half an hour late and I have to rush through the appointment…. I just wish the clients took the situation as seriously as I did and respected me as a professional. (For the record, many do, but many don’t.)

    2. Lillian McGee*

      There are a lot and mostly kitchen-related but the biggest one is when something runs out or is near to running out and people just ignore it! They don’t refill the copy paper or the paper towels, etc. and the worst part is they don’t tell me so I can reorder things BEFORE they run completely out! It’s maddening.

      1. Shell*

        Ha, maybe it’s my previous admin background rearing its head, but I do automatically straighten up/refill things when I can at work (as opposed to at home, where I am full of clutter).

        I had a coworker thank me for refilling the paper towels the other day, which surprised me. XD

      2. asl*

        In my office, folks often bring in treats and put them in the common area for everyone to share. People don’t throw away the container after they take the last cookie/treat/tea/ etc. Drives me nuts! Who do you think is gonna throw it away? Your mom? The magical office cleaning fairy?

      3. Rebecca*

        My coworkers are apparently incapable of replacing the toilet paper roll. They’ll just put it on top of the empty one. ??? You’re sitting there for a little bit, just put it on the actual holder!

      4. Chameleon*

        When you finish the last of the coffee, brew a new damned pot. Seriously, people, this is office etiquette 101.

    3. LCL*

      Traffic patterns in our parking lot are all screwed up because a manager decided to block off a turnaround area as a group punishment. Of course I escalated this by calling it what it was, and he has the power, so it stays blocked even though the original cause of the problem retired 2 years ago.
      Yes, this has absolutely nothing to do with our mission.

    4. Kelly L.*

      The guy who works behind me always hums the same line from the same song, every 30 minutes or so, every day he’s here.

      2. bridget*

        THE BATHROOM SINK. The temperature is fine, but the pressure is set very high with a very fine spray pattern. So it’s simultaneously very difficult to get my hands actually wet, and the water mists/sprays all the way up my arms, all over my shirt, and onto my face. It’s the worst.

      3. Natalie*

        Ugh, the bathroom on our level is just asinine. And was redesigned fairly recently, so we’re stuck with it.

        And the water is always freezing.

      4. Hlyssande*

        Our bathroom sinks are fine, but the paper towel dispenser is right next to the right sink, and whoever is using it has to lean away/edge into the middle for someone else to access. It’s like that in the entire freaking fancy office building and I huff about it every day for being so stupid.

        Also, the lighting at the mirror you can actually get close to is ridiculous.

    6. fposte*

      Our carpet is really wrinkled. They can’t stretch it out because it’s aging and it would probably wreck it, and there’s no budget to replace it. And every morning when I go in the light shines in from the sides and it looks like a freaking relief map, and it’s just annoying.

      (There is a lot worse, but that’s the recurring one that isn’t a big deal but really bugs me.)

      1. Alma*

        My first week after orientation, in the office to which I had been assigned, I got up from my desk chair, and the toe of my shoe caught the wrinkle in the carpeting and I went flying. It still replays in my mind in slo-mo. The offices were rented, but still – I had to file an injury report.

      2. Clever Name*

        Ugh. The new-ish carpet in my office is filthy. We have field workers tromping in and out and we’re a dog friendly office. We had the carpet cleaned a while back and then a piece of equipment leaked *something* on the carpet the day after they were cleaned.

    7. Kyrielle*

      The guy across the hall from me is almost never in the office (I think in three months he’s averaged once a week?) because he travels for work. He has a window, I have a windowless office. (On the plus side, when he’s gone, the interior windows and a couple open doors mean I have a tree view that’s actually pretty nice, just further away than I want it.)

      1. afiendishthingy*

        My part time mostly telecommuting coworker has the best lowest traffic cube, which just doesn’t seem fair. I borrow it a lot, which eases the pain of the injustice a bit.

    8. pieces of flair*

      My boss is always running late and/or scheduling meetings for times when she already has something scheduled. I’m the one who has to contact the people she’s supposed to be meeting with to let them know she’ll be late or they’ve been “bumped” and need to reschedule. Or if she doesn’t tell me she’s running late, I have to awkwardly direct people to wait in her office and say I’m sure she’ll be here soon.

      She is otherwise great, though.

    9. squids*

      People don’t knock or announce their presence before coming up behind me and talking to me. I get jump-startled 2-3 times a week. My boss was doing better for a while after I specifically talked to him about it, but …

      1. F.*

        I assume you are talking about when you are at your desk. Get a small mirror on a stand and strategically place it so you can see over your shoulder.

    10. rek*

      I work for a state government (my office is in a state-owned building) and the bathrooms are disgusting. On any given day, at least one toilet won’t flush and at least one sink is clogged. The presence of soap is hit-or-miss. The building has eight floors, and I swear the cleaning crew uses the same murky bucket of water to wash all of the bathrooms. I’m not germ phobic but I have resorted to bringing my own spray disinfectant when I visit the facilities.

      1. Beth*

        Ha! I also work in state government. Our building once received an email from facilities stating that the 2nd floor bathrooms were once again operational now that the plumbers had unclogged the toilets of large quantities of paper towels AND SOME UNDERWEAR.

    11. bridget*

      No free coffee in the breakroom, having to use wordperfect for some things (?!?!!!), and my boss having a fair number of very specific quirky preferences that need to be remembered (like fonts in emails).

      1. Mockingjay*

        Not quite on topic, but I miss Wordperfect. It had formatting features in the DOS-based version that MS Word still can’t do today…

          1. bridget*

            Word has reveal formatting now, which I understand is pretty much the same thing.

            At my current WP job, the Reveal Codes function is detailed in our process manual, under “What To Do if the Formatting in WordPerfect Does Something Bizarre For No Reason.” So, one might argue that word doesn’t really *need* a reveal codes function :)

            1. Lore*

              Word’s reveal formatting doesn’t work quite the same way, though–it reveals formatting on a selected portion of text, but if something is behaving strangely and you can’t figure out why, there’s still no way to reveal all the formatting markers in a file to see where the problem lies.

          3. I'm a Little Teapot*

            Oh, WordPerfect. Word processor of my childhood and adolescence, on which I wrote many high school papers and terrible unfinished novel drafts. It will always have a special place in my heart.

    12. AVP*

      My office overlooks a street where, for two weeks out of the year, there’s a giant Italian street festival. I love zeppoles, but they have this terrible dj and a grandstand with eating contests and it is so loud and gross and because they shut down the six blocks surrounding us during the festival, you can’t get deliveries and it’s really hard to move big things in and out of our building. And the dj assumes that no one will be at the festival for more than a few hours so he has no problem playing the same songs over and over….except we can all hear him quite loudly from our office, and his favorite song is Blurred Lines.

      On the bright side, they must have gotten a lot of complaints because this year’s version is like dialed down by half. And it’s over after this weekend!

      1. Loquelic Iteritas*

        > Blurred Lines

        My … what an interesting song. I’d never heard it before (I listen to a lot of music, but I have some weird gaps, especially when it comes to Billboard/pop/bubblegum stuff which, sorry, I tend to think of more as “music product”). When you said “DJ” and “Italian street festival” I kinda figured the music would lean more towards stuff like “Ce La Luna Mezzo Mare”.

        In any event, you have my sympathies, I can definitely understand the irritation factor in listening to “Blurred Lines” more than once a day.

        Oh my – there’s an ‘uncensored’ music video for the song.

        1. AVP*

          heh, you would think….their live musical performances run to Italian American classics, Italian music, and operas, but somehow the DJ didn’t get that memo.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        “Soaking.” There is no such thing as soaking; there are only abandoned nasty dishes and a muttered feeble excuse. When I see that the same dish has been “soaking” for a couple of days, I disappear it into the trash.

      3. LSP*

        Our stupid, cheat microwave turntable is always off its shaft and no one bothers to fix it except me!!!!! Argh, so much anger.

        Also, someone always set the microwave for X minutes but stops it at Y seconds and never hits clear.

        Now I’m going to go to bed angry x-|

    15. Ad Astra*

      My boss tells a lot of stupid jokes and sometimes makes social/political comments that he should probably save for his like-minded buddies. Nothing egregious, but enough to make me wish he’d go away.

      1. Annoyed*

        Same here. He drives me nuts. It gets worse the colder it gets outside. I’m dreading winter already because of him.

      2. Clever Name*

        My office mate chews everything rally loudly. Even soup. He smacks his lips and sniffles constantly. And he reeks of cigarette smoke.

    18. Ama*

      My work building is a block long (a very short block, but still) and has an entrance on either end, but because it is on a hill the “back” entrance is on a lower floor than the main entrance. They lock this door at 5 pm every day, even though 90% of the businesses that rent space here are open past 5. The back entrance happens to be in the direction of my walk home (and closer to quite a few mass transit options that my coworkers use), if they’d leave it open even half an hour longer most of us would not have to walk around the building every day.

    19. Elizabeth West*

      People who splash water all over the sink/counter in the bathroom and don’t wipe up after themselves. I am not your mother or your maid. What, are you taking a bath in there?

      1. TootsNYC*

        wiping up is a pain, though–you can’t do it with just a paper towel or two, usually.
        I got a squeegee for the all-in-one molded sinks for the bathroom at my old job. I was very popular!

    20. TheLazyB (UK)*

      Not being told deadlines and still being expected to meet them.
      Also, we keep getting told that our travel budget is overspent. Me&my counterpart are worried about this every time we need to travel. Meanwhile senior management keep going for Really Expensive Travel Options. Grr.

      1. Merry and Bright*

        The travel thing is exactly the same where I work. Uncannily so. It is also public money so everyone officially has the same rules. But…

    21. Mallory Janis Ian*

      There is no faculty/staff parking on this side of campus, except in the $800/year parking garages or reserved lots. Normal faculty/staff parking (for salaries under $30,000) is only $96/year. I never paid attention when I worked on the other side of campus, but all the good, cheap parking is on that side. I assumed when I started working in this department that they would have comparable places to park. But, nope. And to make it worse, I know that the lot across the street used to be cheap parking, and they converted it all to reserved parking about five years ago. I keep looking at it and thinking that I used to would have been able to park there.

      1. TheLazyB (UK)*

        I know that must be maddening but most of my friends who drive to work would be thrilled to pay so little! To park where I used to work was £6 a day which is $2145 a year. Just in case that makes you feel any better? (If not feel free to ignore me!)

      2. Ad Astra*

        You just reminded me of another gripe about my job: We have to pay for parking. It’s less expensive and more convenient than what you (and other academics I know) describe, but parking isn’t particularly scarce near our office. The company owns four lots and a garage, there’s enough reserved space for every employee, and the “visitor” spots for customers are never even half filled. At least we get to pay it pre-tax.

    22. some1*

      Two jobs ago I had a close-knit group of girlfriends at work that I haven’t had since – I do miss that, but I am also probably taken more seriously now because I’m not tempted to wate time talking to my friends.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        That is one of the main things I miss, too. I was part of a close-knit group of work friends that included a professor, an academic advisor, a director, and a development officer (people from several different areas of goings-on in our school). I always felt in the loop about everything that was going on at work, and heard about most things before they were a blip on the general knowledge. I felt like I had sort of an inside bead on what was going on.

        Now I can really tell I’m the new person; I was really taken aback the first time someone wouldn’t divulge something really minor to me; working for eight years at the same place and being a trusted confidante to many of the people there, I hadn’t encountered the gossip brick wall in a long, long time.

      1. asl*

        Plus various “system-wide” passwords requiring you to change them at different intervals so you can’t cheat and use the same password for each at the same time. Also the fact that we have to use several “system-wide” passwords instead of just, ya know, ONE “system-wide” password.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Usually you can proactively change your password at any time, so I just go change all 3 of them whenever the shortest interval comes around.

          And I use the same one for all of them; I just add a symbol for each of them (like, + for PeopleSoft; @ for the publishing system, and % for the other one).

      3. Lore*

        Yes! I get it…but if I could make *one* password and keep it all year, I’d be much more likely to have a really good secure one. Every 60-90 days, either I have to write it down or I have to dumb it down.

      4. Yet Another Fed*

        Tip: Do a password that has some numbers in it, and increment the numbers at the 60-90 days mark. So then you just have to remember whether you’re at (password)45 or (password)46 etc.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I do this–I have a phrase that has a word that could be converted to a number; I combine that w/ initials and proper nouns. And then I just change that number up by one every time. And add the second half of the phrase if it’s a longer password requirement.

      5. AnotherFed*

        Check into password safe – that got approved for our agency a couple of years ago, and made life so much easier!

      6. Not So NewReader*

        I need over a dozen passwords for my job. My boss needs even more. Yep, we have a reference sheet because neither one of us can remember “iOp6wnbv7Tq37” or similar for all the sites we use.

      7. EA*

        The worst is the voicemail system on our desk phones, which makes us change the PW every 40 days, and it can’t be any of your *EIGHT* previous passwords. And I average about one voicemail a year.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I know an IT guy who always, when told he has to change his password, changes it eight times at once, until he’s back at the old password again.

    24. Casual Friday*

      We share a break room with another apartment and they all eat lunch at the same time in there, crowding up the place and LOL’ing in all caps. By that, I mean we can hear them laughing aaaaaaaaaaalll the way across the floor.

    25. Merry and Bright*

      (1) People who empty used tea bags into the kitchen sink.

      (2) People who will not flush the toilet.

    26. Tau*

      A kettle that is so encrusted with limescale that my tea actually ends up gritty. I feel like I’m still way too much of a newbie to ask if anything can be done about it, but I have fond daydreams of sneaking into the office in the middle of the night with a bottle of vinegar or something.

      Also, being told IE is the preferred browser. I AM BIASED.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        We’ve been told to NOT use IE, except for some websites that won’t work with anything else (some government travel website that I use to book my boss’s travel to DC, for example). Which is fine with me; I love Chrome.

      2. TootsNYC*

        I don’t know why you can’t just clean it one day. It’s not like it’s that big a deal. Just do it–everyone will think you’re the cool newbie.

        Or buy a new one, if the kettle isn’t that cleanable.

        Be the change you want to see. I promise you, people won’t get upset about it. Just do it openly one day.

    27. Could be anyone*

      Retail clothing job that had items transferred between stores. There were specific forms for this that had to be requested from main office. Usually no problem but before inventory no transfers could be made and we knew that afterwards there would be lot as they tried to balance out the inventory. But they would never send more than 2 transfer books at a time no matter how many you knew you would need. So for 2 weeks before inventory I would have to put in a request for 2 books every other day so we’d have enough.

    28. JGray*

      I am the admin asst for a bunch of project managers. Most of the project managers are pretty self sufficient in that they do a lot of things themselves and occasionally will ask me to do something for them if they are really busy- except for one. He is notorious for essentially deciding that he doesn’t want to do something and so then asks me to do it. I can’t really say no because part of my job is helping the project manager with projects. But some of the things he asks me to do are ridiculous. I was at an all day training one time offsite once and during lunch noticed that he emailed me to find some information for him. I knew the info was on the website so I quickly went to the website and then emailed him the info- it took all of 2 minutes to do. He is constantly asking me to call people that he probably should. It ebbs and flows with his requests but it wears on you when there are multiple ones in a week so I always put those off on the to do list.

    30. LSP*

      Bathroom lingers….

      One lady has a whole 15 min ritual of teeth brushing, flossing, humming, staring at herself, cleaning up the sinks a little bit, and lord knows what else.

      Lady #2 has a similar routine, but on top of that she’ll spray the air fresher afterwards in the stall YOU are in because, you know, despite the fact she took a massive dump, you are the one leaving the offending smell. Hilarious!

      I really want to say get out! Leave! Go away!!! But I haven’t, so in the meantime I just wait for them to leave.

      1. The Other CrazyCatLady*

        People who decide it’s a good idea to take *personal calls* in the bathroom. While other people are in there doing the intended kind of business.

    31. Lindsay J*

      A coworker always completely shuts down the shared computers after using them. Everyone else just logs off or uses switch user, so I always wind up staring at the black screen, wondering why the stupid thing isn’t waking up after I touch the keyboard. Then I realize she must have used it last, and have to bend over to power on the computer and wait for it to load up.

    32. AngieB*

      I am phlebotomist-
      People who call me a vampire/ lab tech/ nurse
      People who sit down in the draw chair and look at me as if im supposed to roll their sleeve up- NO roll it up, I don’t dress you.
      People who cough on me as I draw them
      People who try to respond to texts while I draw their blood
      People who think I can just add tests on that the doctor didn’t order-cant happen in NY-
      People who want me to draw there fasting blood work even though they’re not fasting- the results aren’t accurate- you’re wasting my time.
      People who insist on a serum pregnancy test after the urine ones all come back negative -not once in 9 years has a serum come back positive after the urine was negative.
      I do love my job, just all of those things ive listed each happen roughly once a day- the first 4 happen multiple times a day, every day

  29. Retail Lifer*

    My boyfriend and I now have friends telling us that we must be doing something wrong since we’ve both been applying to a million jobs for months and we’re both getting almost no responses.

    These are people who have had the same job for 10+ years. Yeah, even I got calls back 10 years ago.

    1. "Jayne"*

      How does your cover letter/resume look? Are you tailoring each and everyone according to the job you’re applying to?
      I neglected to do that (didn’t even know that was necessary) when I was trying to get out of retail, and I submitted my info to a bunch of places for YEARS and never got a single response. It wasn’t until I learned that rule that I finally got a call back, and finally got out.

      It seems you read AAM a lot, so you may already know it. If that’s the case, then I’m sorry! I don’t know what advice to give, except to hang in there! I was in your situation not too long ago, and I seriously believed I would be stuck at my retail job forever.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        My cover letters have vastly improved since I found this site. I honestly never even understood the point of cover letters when before then. I think my biggest issue is that I have well over a decade of retail management experience on my resume and absolutely nothing else, and that’s not helping.

  30. Anx*

    I’m currently working part-time in a paid job, and extended an internships into volunteering. My current job is in a field with limited potential for full-time employment.

    I’m thinking that in January I may want to start looking for a second part-time job (if I haven’t done so already) and end my volunteering. But I’ll only have 6 months, not a year, of experience from my internship by them. So I’m not sure I’m really eligible for a job yet.

    There’s a problem though: There’s a good chance I’ll be moving within the year. My partner will be doing an academic job search. Even at grad student stipends, he’s by far the breadwinner between us. He’s more focused on his career, has a better work history, more specific skills, and has a lot of momentum right now.

    I’m almost 30 and I’m really itching to get out of this part-time / intern / volunteer cycle soon. But do you think it’s unwise or unfair to look for jobs when I intend to move if I can’t afford to stay here on my own? How do you go about job searching when you can’t afford to just wait and see what happens, but you can’t in all honestly profess your desire to stay with a company or in a region indefinitely?

    (i think the most frustrating thing about this is I’ve been job searching here for years)

    Although I’m searching for a full-time job now, I sometimes think it may be better to just stay with my current employer. I’m at the one year mark right now. I don’t want to look too job hoppy.

        1. Healthcare*

          If you’re moving within the year, could you find a part time contract? Those are usually less sought after positions that just so happen to fit both timing concerns. That would be the path I’d take.

          1. Anx*

            That’s what I’m hoping for!

            Unfortunately, a lot of those are at the larger employers, where I don’t think I’ll be able to make it past HR screening.

        2. over educated and underemployed*

          Maybe you can be a spousal hire on the administrative side if/when your partner gets an academic position :) Wishful thinking probably but wouldn’t that be cool?

  31. Stuck*

    I have 10 years of experience in my field but I have never managed employees before. Jobs in my field that do not require management experience are either entry-level or 3-5 years experience. I’m not getting interviews for those jobs. The next tier is 7+ years of experience but they do require management experience. I’m getting interviews for these jobs but being told that I am not getting them due to lack of management experience. Is my best bet to forget about the 7+ years of experience jobs and focus on applying for entry-level or 3-5 years experience jobs? If so, should I de-emphasize my experience on my cover letter/resume (and in interviews if I get to that stage)? Please help! Thank you!

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Are you me?

      But do you have any leadership experience besides actual management that you can use as examples in interviews? You may already be doing this, but just wanted to throw that out there. Because if they’re interviewing you without seeing management experience, it would seem that they’re open to hiring someone who hasn’t managed people before.

      1. Stuck*

        I work in volunteer management and manage several hundred volunteers annually that are year-round volunteers plus dozens of short-term volunteers. Because of the critical role the year-round volunteers have, they have to apply to volunteer and if selected, they are given performance goals, annual reviews, etc. If they are not working out, they go through a PIP, and if necessay, can be dismissed from their role. While not the same as managing paid employees, there are similarities, and they are held to a higher level than your typical volunteer. I have also managed paid seasonal and temporary staff. I talk about this in my cover letter/resume and in interviews, and it doesn’t seem to matter since these are not paid year-round employees.

        1. JGray*

          The jobs that require management experience make sure to play up your volunteer management. A cover letter won’t have room for a lot of details but put something like “volunteer management including performance goals, annual reviews . . ” This way hopefully you can get an interview and explain in more depth that even though they aren’t paid these volunteers are like employees in that sense.

        2. Pinkie Pie Chart*

          I hope your volunteer management experience is on your resume, too. You are definitely managing them if they have goals and reviews and all that other good manage-y stuff.

  32. Maureen*

    I’m thinking about a career shift to Data science / Business intelligence. I’ve worked in IT for over 15 years (web development, system administration, network admin, and IT Management).

    I’ve seen this program available on coursera:

    https://www.coursera.org/specializations/jhudatascience

    Would completion of this program be looked on favorably by hiring manager of Data Science/Business Intelligence personnel?

    More generally, what makes a good Data Scientist/Business Intelligence professional?

    1. Dawn*

      I’m in this exact same boat. I’m currently looking into getting a MS in Data Science vs an MBA with a concentration in Data Analytics vs getting some professional certifications, and what I’ve come up with so far is that data science as a field is so extremely new that no one knows what the career track looks like.

      Since you already have a background in IT I think the first thing that you can do would be learn R/Python/SAS/SQL and about the Hadoop ecosystem- you can do that on your own pretty easily with free online courses. That’s a good start for sure. Also look at jobs that you think you’d like to do and see what the requirements gap between the job and your current skills is so you can begin to address that gap.

      Data analytics is SUCH a broad field- everything from being a math whiz senior analyst (like a friend of mine from high school with a PhD in advanced mathematics) to being an IT nerd programming warehouses for enormous data dumps in a Hadoop framework to being a Business Analyst using statistical analysis on large data warehouses to make predictive business recommendations (hopefully me in a few years). But yeah, start by looking at the jobs that you think you’d want and then working backwards- and trust me your background in IT is gonna be a huuuuuuuuge help.

      1. Nashira*

        For learning Python, I recommend a mix of Codecademy, exercism.io, and the book Learning Python the Hard Way. The first two are more fun, and the book really grinds it into your brain.

        There’s also Code Wars for exercism-esque kata but with an in-browser compiler like Codecademy.

    2. Anne S*

      I’m a data scientist and I interview data scientists (although it’s my boss that’s the hiring manager). That program is a good start, but on its own wouldn’t be enough for us to hire except in a very junior role. In particular, though I like it for teaching tools and technologies, there’s not enough independent decision-making in the projects for us to evaluate whether you can look at a data set, ask a reasonable question, and approach finding the answers in a reasonable systemic way.

    3. stellanor*

      I am working in BI and trying to move a little bit toward data science, and my manager has a storied history of managing analysts. I was also looking at that program and her take on it was that the coursework is absolutely valuable to learn those skills but paying for the certificate is, and I will quote her now, “stupid”. Apparently people don’t take the certificates very seriously to the point that it’s not worth paying money for them.

    5. Jubilance*

      Your best bet is to learn the systems – R/Python/Hadoop/SAS and also hone your SQL skills. Also learn about systems like Teradata and Tableau. Courses are fine but what you really need is experience working with Big Data and feeling comfortable with it. At the same time, a lot of companies are just starting to touch Big Data, so it’s good to also be an advanced Excel user – pivot tables, Vlookups, etc.

    6. Windchime*

      This set of courses is exactly what our boss (whose title is EBI Director and Chief Data Scientist) is suggesting that our team take. One person has already started and I’m slated to start in October. Most of us are SQL programmers who also have other skills (C#, SSIS, SSRS). I think it sounds like a good idea for you. We are a Business Intelligence team that is growing really fast and are heading towards doing more analytics and data visualization.

  33. Healthcare*

    I haven’t found any information on this, so I thought I’d ask here. What is the accepted practice on resigning from a maternity leave contract position before the expected end date? I have been offered a promotion with more pay in a permanent role. It would be foolish of me to turn that down as a social courtesy, especially in this economy.

    Will they be mad with me or very mad with me?

    1. Dawn*

      It’s business. If they get mad it’s on them, NOT you.

      Just contact your supervisor or whatever and say hey I unexpectedly got a job offer I can’t refuse so I will not be returning to work after my maternity leave, would you like me to come by and clean out my desk or will you be mailing my things to me?

      I think this is no different than resigning two weeks into a month-long vacation- sometimes things happen, the business will be fine without you, so just enjoy your newfound fortune and the rest of your maternity leave.

    2. Lucky*

      My thinking in contract positions harkens back to the wisdom of Beyonce: “If you like it then you should have put a ring on it.” Do what you can to lengthen the transition period – see if you can give three weeks notice rather than two – but be straightforward in saying that you can’t pass up this excellent, permanent role.

    3. Colette*

      They’ll survive. I think the actual impact depends on how long the contract was for and how much was left, but I think it’s fine to do either way (but I’d acknowledge that it’s an inconvenience for them).

    4. Natalie*

      If they’re mad at you, they’re being completely ridiculous. You can’t win with ridiculous people so don’t concern yourself with them!

    5. Gandalf the Nude*

      I’m going to disagree with everyone here just a little bit and say that it really depends on the nature of the contract. I think most likely you’ll get congratulations on the step up, but under certain conditions, I could see an employer being reasonably frustrated about a contracted temp leaving early. Probably the majority of temp positions would be no big deal to bring in another warm body, and in most cases it’s understood that the temp’s tenure ends as soon as an acceptable permanent position is offered. However, if they already invested significant resources into bringing you in and training you, or it’s a higher level position where having the right person in place, even temporarily, actually matters, or if they specifically outlined the length of your tenure (in the contract or not, but especially if you agreed to it in the contract), I wouldn’t blame them for being upset.

      Definitely check the contract to make sure you aren’t violating any provisions regarding early termination, and be as generous with notice as you can without jeopardizing the new job. To be clear, I am not saying that you should turn down an awesome permanent job for a role with a built-in end date, but I can see how, with the right conditions, an employer would be justified in being kind of peeved at you peacing out early, even if they are also happy for your success.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      What’s the time difference between when your contract is up and when you would need to leave?

      I was in the same boat as you, but managed to negotiate my start date at my new gig so that I could close out my leave support. I was at-will, not contract, but I still felt an obligation not to bail on my commitment and leave those staff in the lurch if I could help it. But they would have totally understood that I needed to prioritize a permanent job over a temporary appointment.

      Ultimately barring any legal complications per Gandalf the Nude’s post, you’ve gotta look out for you. They’ll figure things out. It’s helpful if you can help recommend or arrange a support plan (e.g. splitting up the work you’re doing, or recommending some things that can just stop for a little while until the permanent person is back).

      They might be a little irked at you, especially since you’re contracted for a specific amount of time. Some people hold a grudge; it’s just a thing that can happen. But a reasonable person should understand that you’ve gotta look out for you, and would completely empathize with your position.

      1. Healthcare*

        I learned that the last maternity leave replacement (he replaced a different employee) left after 8 months, so this shouldn’t be too shocking.

        I checked with HR and they said I could technically leave today, but they would appreciate the professional courtesy of two weeks. No legal issues!

    7. TootsNYC*

      Anything you can do to lessen the impact on them will make a big difference. So if you know someone who could step in to take the last part of the contact, that’ll help.; anything you can do to set things up to automate themselves; etc.

      They’ll get over it.

  34. Bagworm*

    So, yesterday I was so convinced it was Friday that I kept checking the AAM page for the open thread and getting increasingly anxious as the day wore on and it didn’t appear. I was worried Alison’d eliminated it. I was very, very sad. Now I realize I am just a sad person who can’t read a calendar. :-)

    I don’t actually have anything to add. I just felt compelled to confess that (and that I got my outfit I’m wearing today at a thrift store (but I did wash it)).

    2. Lillian McGee*

      I pretty much exclusively buy my sweaters at thrift stores. No danger of me shrinking something someone else has already owned! Also, you can find cashmere there for $5 or less. Cashmere!!

      1. Bagworm*

        Oooh…that’s smart about the sweaters. I’m always shrinking those. I haven’t seen cashmere though. I guess I’m not looking hard enough.

        1. Lillian McGee*

          Try more upscale neighborhoods. I’ve been able to find good quality designer stuff in Goodwills near ritzy suburbs. Also try to go Monday-Weds. People tend to drop stuff off over the weekend and it gets put out early in the week… and snatched up by the end!

          1. Anx*

            Absolutely this.

            I don’t live in an upscale town at all, but there is a more upscale thriftstore around here that during their sales has better deals than Good Will. I bought a cashmere, moderately used, not super new looking but not ratty sweater last week for $2.50.

    4. TCO*

      I wear thrift-store professional clothing to work all the time and get compliments on my attire! One of my favorite dresses that gets a lot of compliments was literally $1.

    5. Liane*

      I became a big fan of looking for nice clothes secondhand when I worked in a chemistry/microbiology lab that inexplicably required nice dresses, pants, skirts, tops. Yes I had a lab coat & so on, but those don’t cover everything & lab reagents are sneaky. I still do.
      In addition to Goodwill, our city has a Savers, which is a similar chain, but each store supports one or more local charities. Clothing comes in all levels of quality and amount of use, plus Savers has a loyalty card tied to 40% off on varying categories of merchandise at least once per week.

      1. Anx*

        I just bought a few blazers for this purpose (well, I don’t need to dress up but I’m tired of old t shirts). One of the bad things about dressy clothes is that as soon as they get a little bit stained, they don’t fulfill their purpose. It looks worse than a stained t shirt.

        Since they’re already used and cost <$3 I don't need to worry about stains and can finally start wearing clothes I feel a little better in. Plus blazers are little less absorbant in case of spills

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I went from caring very deeply that I bought my clothes at retail stories to not caring in the least tiny bit. Most of what I own is second hand. I used to worry about my clothes but no more. This week I ripped two pairs of jeans working on my house. Who cares. I found another pair for $2 and brought those jeans home.
      I am not sure why the big change. I think a chunk of the reason is when clothes wear out/go out of style it’s just not a big deal. Go get something else and move on. And people are crazy about what they give away. Earlier this summer I bought a pair of dress pants for $3. The tags were still on the pants. The tag said $60. I bought a really neat coat for $20. Judging from the way the fabric hangs (the material was cut very well) this was probably a couple hundred dollars at one point.
      People are getting rid of some really nice items, it’s baffling to me. I think it’s a great idea to check out consignment shops and other places. I have been finding great deals for stuff to fix my house. I went to a couple lawn sales where people were just giving away paint. wow.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        I have become some sort of evangelist for a consignment store in my area. It is well-organized and clean and the selection is great. I’ve gotten a bunch of good stuff there, including my favorite dress, and a pair of jeans that fit great, cost me about twenty dollars, and apparently retail at Nordstrom for around two hundred. I tell EVERYONE about it – usually when they compliment me on something I bought there. The woman who owns it is really nice too, so it feels good to support a local business.

      2. Stephanie*

        Yeah, my job requires I dress up in business casual, but doesn’t really pay a business casual dress salary. Consignment stores have been a lifesaver.

  35. Calla*

    A lesson/demonstration on why to never think you’re a shoo-in for a job!

    About a month ago, a former coworker forwarded me a job at her current workplace. I sent her my resume and she sent it in as a referral. I had a phone interview a couple days later that went great, and was told they’d try to get me in ASAP. Followed up a week later, and was told they had decided to go with a contractor instead. Their HR person said, verbatim, “I’m really bummed because I thought you’d be a great fit.”

    Time goes by, and early last week she emailed me asking if I had a second because she had some good news. They didn’t like any of the contractors and decided to go perm. HR person said she had been telling the hiring exec about me since our first phone call and when they decided to go perm they immediately wanted to bring me in. Verbatim, “I’m so happy you’re still available, we were afraid someone else had already scooped you up!” We set up an on-site interview for 2 days later (last Friday). It’s a good chunk of time, and I can’t always read interviews super well, but I definitely connected with the interviewers and we were definitely in sync about what the position needed and that I am perfectly qualified. HR person touched base with me during a small gap and said things like “How ready are you to move?” I felt SUPER good about this–I had an employee referral, the interviews went great, the HR person was practically gushing over me. At the end, she said I’d hear by early this week.

    Wednesday, I followed up–I knew it was early and acknowledged that, but told her I was setting up more interviews and getting further in the process of some others (true) so just wanted to touch base on how it was going on their end. Thursday, I get the generic “Thank you for your interest but we’ve decided to go with someone with better experience” rejection email.

    I knew, I KNEWWWWW, you never have the job in the bag, but it still stung! I have certainly learned my lesson!

    (I still am pretty upset about that loss, but I have another interview this afternoon at a decent company and one on Wednesday at a big name company relevant to my interests, so, I’ll live.)

    1. lfi*

      This happened to me… only they dragged it out for weeks. They even had me come to a team lunch with one of the execs who gave the green light, toasting, all that.. and then nothing. Sigh. That’s ok. Something better will come along.

    2. NickelandDime*

      I’m so sorry. Job searching is not for the faint of heart and it’s so hard not to get your hopes up when things look good. Good luck on your next interview!

  36. Thea*

    How do you deal with a bully in the workplace? I’ve recently handed in my two weeks notice, in part because I’ve had it with the way this person acs, but what are you supposed to do? Especially when management basically acts as if this person is the best thing in the world?

      1. Thea*

        I did feel that it was the best option, for me, in the end. I’m still debating if I should tell management in my exit-interview though, because now another co-worker seems to be in the bully’s spotlight.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          Did you ever talk to management about it before? I maybe incorrectly assumed you hadn’t, when you said they act like the bully is the best person in the world. Unfortunately though, I think there are a lot of work bullies out there who are very valued by management – or they are management.

          1. Thea*

            At one point, I did talk to management, because it was getting really out of hand and I knew that I needed to have some kind of back up if I was going to stand up to the bully. Unfortunately, managements were shuffled around shortly after this, and the person I talked to is no longer my manager.

            1. Dawn*

              Tell em in your exit interview. Be honest and frank but don’t name names unless they ask- “part of why I am leaving is because of bullying behavior by a coworker which continued after I spoke to numerous members of management about it and which is still on-going.”

      1. Thea*

        Yes, I did, because it was getting really out of hand (the person was commenting on everything, from my work performance to what I was wearing, and calling me outside of work hours). It eventually led to the bully completely ignoring me (which is what is happening right now), but I also know the bully is talking about me a lot behind my back.

        1. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

          Were the calls outside of work hours work related? If not, that may have been an opportunity to tell said person that if the calls and comments do not stop you will file a police report and possibly a restraining order. Before making this move, I would let mgmt know AGAIN that this has now moved outside of work hours and is harassment. Let them know that everything is being documented and if action is not taken to protect employees then you would move to the next course of action. Sometimes you have to play hardball.
          I had one bully in past years that talked crazy and down to everyone. I told him one time that he will not speak to me like that. I then told my manager that if he continues to speak to me like that I am more than willing to walk. The guy never spoke to me again and I was just fine with that.

    3. Argh!*

      It depends on the nature of the bullying, but if management is drinking the kool-aid, you have no choice. I have done the same thing and for the same reason, but too late. I actually needed therapy for 6 months and had nightmares for years. Good for you for looking out for yourself. I hope your next position has a better atmosphere.

  37. Lois May*

    I graduated a few months ago – and this week I got offered my first professional job, starting in two weeks! It’s full time at a small non-profit in the city where I went to college, which is perfect for me. I definitely could not have managed to get such an ideal job without the help of AAM, thank you Alison!

    I’m really nervous about all the little things, like how lunch breaks work and what to wear, as well as generally messing up. Has anyone got any tips about settling into your first job? Or things to avoid doing/horror stories?

    1. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

      Regarding attire, did you take a look at what people were wearing when you interviewed? I would dress a small step up from that until you get a better feel for the company and culture. Regarding lunch, just ask! You can phrase it as “What do people usually do for lunch? Do they eat out or do most people bring their lunch in? Since I’m not familiar with this area of town (if true) what restaurants do you recommend?” All of these are easy questions that you can ask a few different people. Good luck on your new job!

    2. misspiggy*

      There was a long thread here on this very question – but one useful piece of advice was bring food on your first day in case there are no other options. I’d add to bring cash, in case friendly colleagues ask you to lunch (in which case don’t mention the food you brought) and card payment isn’t available.

      1. ACA*

        Oh, interesting – I’ve always done the opposite: Don’t bring lunch the first day in case there’s no fridge/microwave/place to eat.

        1. Evan Þ*

          I’ve always split the difference and brought a PB&J or something else that can just sit in my briefcase.

  38. Isben Takes Tea*

    How have others dealt with taking sick days for mental health reasons, or employees taking sick days for mental health reasons?

    1. Lillian McGee*

      “I’m not feeling well today so I won’t be able to make it in,” suffices for my office. Asking more would be too intrusive. If you do get asked more or are asked for a doctor’s note or something I’d say that my affliction wasn’t bad enough to need a doctor but bad enough to affect my ability to work. Also, I wouldn’t use more than one day at a time for “mental health” days.

    2. LCL*

      Do you mean, a real mental health issue, or sicking out for a “mental health day” because you are sick of work? If it is the first, you don’t actually have to tell management anything other than you are calling in sick. If it is the second, don’t call it a mental health day, just call in sick, so really same as the first. (This is a workplace that has separate sick and vacation days, things are different when all days are PTO.)
      I tell our employees, I will always ask when you will be back, but I never ask why, up to you if you wish to share or not.

    3. the_scientist*

      I think Alison’s done a couple of posts about this before, but in general I don’t think you need to specifically tell your boss why you’re out sick . You wouldn’t (I hope) say “I have terrible diarrhea and can’t come to work today”; there’s no reason you need to tell your boss “I had a massive panic attack this morning and am not in good shape to work today”. A straightforward “I’m ill/under the weather” should suffice- and managers should not be probing the “why”. There is a way to address abuse of sick leave, but demanding to know why someone is out sick is not the way to go about that.

      1. skyline*

        No matter how much I try to convince my employees that I don’t need all the gory details, I get them anyway.

        I have even flat out said, “All you have to do is call/text me with, ‘I’m sick today and staying home,’ and make sure I confirm receipt of your message.” Yet they still tell me about whatever condition is keeping me away.” And I don’t think my behavior is encouraging them to overshare–I’ve only ever asked for details or notes in the course of things like arranging for FMLA leave.

        Maybe my office’s culture is just weird about this.

        1. The Other CrazyCatLady*

          I think workaholic culture has something to do with it. If we spell out exactly how awfully ill we are, there’s this subtext… if I was just sliiiiiiiightly less deathly ill, you wouldn’t be able to keep me out of the office, Boss! Look how I put the job before my well being!

          I grew up with the expectation that you show up for work pretty much no matter what and if you can’t tough it out, then at least you’ve done what you can (and possibly more importantly, your boss and coworkers have also been able to SEE how truly miserably ill you are). Also, my current job has a rolling point system for absences, but they don’t usually count ‘put in a few hours and then go home sick’ against your tally but do if you take an entire day.

    5. Ms. FS*

      I’ve both been an employee that has taken sick days for mental health reasons (stress relief mainly) and a manager that has encouraged employees to take sick days for mental health reasons (both for their families with mental health issues and for themselves). And I look at “mental health issues” as a very broad term – I’ve taken days off where I just felt burned out and stretched thin and needed a day away from the stress. Honestly, this is a hallmark of a “good place to work” for me.

    6. Gene*

      I just tell my boss that I’m having a vision problem. His response is usually, “So you just can’t see yourself coming to work today?” We both know what’s going on. But our office is different than most.

    7. Ad Astra*

      I just text my manager and say I’m really not feeling well and can’t make it in. To be honest, my mental and physical health issues are so interlaced that I was never quite sure which one I was calling in for.

      1. F.*

        If I don’t deal well with my mental health issues (stress), they develop into physical issues that take even longer to deal with. I think of it as a little “preventative maintenance”.

    8. JGray*

      I agree with all the other posters that just saying that you are sick is more than sufficient. If you are a manager and you have an employee that is sick a lot you do need to talk to them because FMLA or ADA could come into play but other than that I don’t think there is any difference between mental health days and having the flu sick days.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      If you mean, “I cannot take one. more. day. in this PLACE, I must call in TODAY.” Yes, I have done that. I don’t call in very often, I see nothing wrong with taking a day every 18 months or so where I just say “the heck with it”. I made sure to not take Monday or a Friday so as not to be accused of getting myself a three day weekend. I would just call up and say, “I don’t feel well and I will not be in.” Done, over.

  39. katamia*

    And another question…

    Anyone here familiar with translation work? When I go back to freelancing (holy crap is this ever a “when” and not an “if” now), I’m thinking of doing some translating work. I’m fluent in the language I want to do and I’m a good writer and editor, so while I certainly don’t know everything there is to know about translating, I’m confident that I have at least the basic skills in place that will let me be successful at it.

    Buuuuuuuuuut I have no proof. My degree is in something else (another language, actually, one that I don’t want to do translation work in), and I’ve never done any translation work before. Would doing a graduate program (certificate or master’s, am looking at both) be worth the time and money investments to have some sort of official qualification to show? Is there something else I could do to look more legitimate?

    1. Pipette*

      Professional translator here. It depends a bit on your language combination, since there is usually more slack in rare but sought after language combinations, but most serious translation agencies will want to see some formal translation training, like a BA or MA in translation, or at least five years experience of translating. For EN-15038 compliance reasons, and because translation is a specific skill that you have to add on top of knowing a foreign language. There is probably a professional translator organisation of some kind in your country that can give you advise on available educations that make sense for your situation.

      In general, some professional experience of a field like medicine, finance, law, IT, or automotive is a big plus, since specialist translators in those fields are sought after.

      1. katamia*

        Yeah, it’s French, so not particularly rare, lol. The language my degree is in greater demand, but my French is still stronger than the other language when it comes to technical vocabulary and nuance, so I’m not sure if I’d feel comfortable translating from that one to English at this point.

        Thanks for your response. It helped give me a better sense of what I’ll need if I do decide to go into translation.

        1. misspiggy*

          You could look into fields where translation is a plus but not the core business. For example, I help produce materials for educators, and sometimes we pull together French or Spanish translations using the language skills of colleagues that we know have the technical vocabulary (we get these reviewed by native speakers as well).

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      A lot of universities will provide testing services in the language for certification. There’s a fee, but it’s not burdensome. If you don’t have a degree in the language, this is an option. (I know there is special certification for medical translators, and other specialists, too.)

      In grad school, I had to be testing in a foreign language for my MA (in English), so I would use that, if there were any appreciable amount of translation work in Latin these days. (And I’d really have to do some review. It’s not as easy to keep Latin skills fresh as it is if the language is still living…)

      1. katamia*

        Oh, good point. I’d heard of those before, actually, but had kind of forgotten about them. I’ll definitely make a note of that for the future. Thanks!

    3. MorganL*

      I don’t know where you are located but in Canada, each province has an association for translators and you have to pass a test to become a member. If you have something like this where you are, I think this would be a good first step. You can see if you have the skills and if you do pass, there’s some proof!
      The one in my province also puts on an Introduction to Translation workshop every year, which you may also find useful. I was a French major in university and took a few translation courses and they are definitely helpful, so I would recommend some kind of course or workshop. Through the association, I’ve met quite a few translators who don’t have any formal education, so I don’t think it’s necessary to get a whole degree.
      Hope this helps!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Courts need translators. There are companies out there that provide that service and courts subscribe to the service. It’s done by phone. A court can call up and say they need a translator for x language and the company connects the caller to an appropriate translator. The translator speaks with the defendant over the phone, even in when the defendant is appearing formally in court. The translator has to be trained and certified. I have no idea how the pay is for the job.

  40. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I want to ask for people’s input about managing the comment section as the site continues to grow.

    I consider the comments section here to be significantly more civil than most comment sections on the internet, but we’ve also had an increase in recent months in some frustrating behavior: nitpicking, derailments, aggressive devil’s advocate playing, occasional unkindness, and imaginative “other-siding” (speculating on far-fetched ways in which letter-writers could be to blame for their situations).

    To some extent, this is the price of having an open, unmoderated discussion with large amounts of strangers. On the other hand, it’s legitimately annoying.

    I’m not sure that there’s a way to both maintain the open dialogue that I think most of us value here and stamp out the things that are less appealing (and if I have to choose, I think I’d take the former over the latter). But many minds are better than one mind, so I’d really value any thoughts on what I might try. Some options I’ve considered:

    1. I could be more aggressive about banning people / putting people on moderation. My bias is to err on the side of a light touch with that, and maybe that’s no longer the right approach.

    2. The default could be set to moderation for everyone, and people could earn their way to unmoderated comments, by sustained civil commenting. This would probably solve the problem but it would make conversation here less satisfying, since most comments wouldn’t show up immediately. It would be a pretty dramatic change in how the comment section works.

    3. I could spend a week or two monitoring comments really closely and stepping in when I see things going down a rabbit hole more quickly than I’m normally able to, in the hopes that a week or two of that would help establish better norms.

    4. I could do nothing and just accept that having a big group of strangers from lots of different cultures and backgrounds all talking together anonymously is going to be messy at times.

    My preference is probably a combination of #1 and #4, but I’m interested in hearing other people’s input (or ideas that aren’t on this list at all).

    Two things that intentionally aren’t on the list above:

    – Volunteer moderators. People have suggested this in the past, but it’s not something I’m up for right now, partly because I think it would be a logistical headache.

    – Requiring registration in order to comment. Registration can help when the problems are coming from commenters who are unfamiliar with the site (people who stumble on the site, leave a rude comment, and move on). But these problems aren’t coming from drive-by commenters; they’re coming from within our regular group.

    So. I’m throwing the problem out to y’all and would love your thoughts on any of the options above, or other ideas you have.

    1. Kelly L.*

      I’ve seen moderation for everyone, and it gets bad. Rather than reduce dogpiling, in my experience, it tends to cause more dogpiling, because the fifteenth person to say “No, you’re wrong” can’t see that fourteen other people commented that before her, because it hasn’t shown up yet.

      I’m leaning 4; I feel like this has happened before, with the discourse getting nastier and then people self-correcting for a while, and maybe we’ve just started to drift again and need to get back on the self-correcting wagon.

    2. A Jane*

      I like no.3 as a first step. It would give you a greater experience of the current issues too.
      You could then use no.1 as well in this approach if you felt someone wasn’t responding to your feedback on their style.
      Is there a way to display comments on here that are new compared to the last time you looked? I have problems keeping track of what’s new and what I’ve read before.

        1. Kelly L.*

          A site that has a really great version of this is SB Nation (sports blogs). There are keyboard shortcuts to jump to comments you haven’t read yet. You do have to register to get that function to work, but if it’s easy to make a burner account, it could still work.

      2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        I agree with this. #3 to get an immediate handle on the issue and then #1 as needed while still keeping as close to the nature of #4 as possible. Should something like #3 be scheduled a few times a year to keep a handle on things?

        1. Alma*

          I agree with A Jane about indicating new posts, as well with beginning with #3 …especially if while #3 is in process, there are “Instructional Comments” to remind all of us where the rails for the train are located, then continuing to a smattering of #1 (unannounced, probably).

          By the time I get to the site sometimes there are several hundred postings or more. That is way too much for me to try to check in on, and is why I have fired some social media sites. They’re a time s*ck. Yet I don’t want to miss what will be truly helpful to me as I continue my job search.

          Registering – especially if it will help direct us to the new posts as Kelly L suggests – is OK with me, as long as we can maintain our anonymity in public viewing.

    3. No_Registration*

      Please don’t require registration. Unfortunately I have to chance my user-name frequently due to snoopy, back-stabby, type co-workers who have already used this anonymous forum, where I made an anonymous, non-specific, vague post about something work related to get me in trouble with higher-ups.

      I enjoy being able to come here and post without risking my job, and a perma-registration would be too risk for me to continue.

      1. badger_doc*

        Wow, seriously? You’ll have to give us an update sometime. In fact, it might be interesting to see if this has happened to anyone else. Your coworkers suck…

        1. No_Registration*

          Yeah it was nasty. Person must have taken my username from the computer. Then trolled for weeks until I posted something that said “at my current work”. That person then sent it to the co-worker he/she *thought* I was talking about. The receiver took serious offense … even though it was 90% about experience at another company with 1 or 2 examples at current place … and complained to my bosses boss who then took it to me.

          I was never told who complained nor who shared so my trust in my co-workers was pretty much shattered.

      2. Florida*

        Agree about no registration. If I had to register, I would probably come on as a reader, but not commenter. If I have to register to read, I’m out. That might sound harsh because the value that this website has is huge. It’s just that I don’t like registering for things. (I don’t use loyalty cards at stores, even if it would save me money.)

        My vote is to monitor, make comments, and kick people off as necessary and trust that it’s going to work. In many many cases, I’ve noticed other commenters policing it before you get a chance to do it. We don’t want nasty negative comments any more than you do.

      3. Mimmy*

        Yeah, posting here about workplace experiences can be a little daunting. My username is anonymous now (I used to include my first name) and try to be as vague as possible about employers and coworkers in my stories though I’m fairly open about some parts of my career history. Yet, worry about former colleagues reading this blog is sometimes in the back of my mind.

    4. MAB*

      Reddit (as much as people love and hate that website) has some forums that are wonderfully moderated and others that are pretty much Lord of the Flies style moderation. I really enjoy the well moderated subreddits and I think 1 and 4 are the best option.

    5. Anon the Great and Powerful*

      I would like a reddit-style comment section where comments are upvoted or downvoted, and if too many people downvote a comment it gets hidden. Being able to ignore certain commenters would also be hugely helpful.

      2. Golden Yeti*

        I like this idea. It’s moderation without actual exclusion. And if the commentariat is self-monitoring, it doesn’t add a ton to Alison’s plate.

        Plus, it would cut down the number of “This!” comments, because we could just upvote good insights. :)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Relatedly, I’ve thought about discouraging people from comments that are solely “+1” because they add length to comment threads that are already routinely 500+ comments (and thus daunting to read), but I have a horror of overly managing people’s comments so I have not.

          1. Calacademic*

            I’m on a social network called “NextDoor” which has two ways to respond: a comment or a generic Thank button. It has that layer of social niceness on top — you are thanking someone for their comment — and serves as a subtle reminder to be polite.

            2. PontoonPirate*

              I really like the “thank” feature on NextDoor because it saves me from having to wade through the nonesense of “this” and “+1” but I can still see who did the thanking, so I know who is participating even if they aren’t adding anything new to the conversation. I’m not a huge fan of downvoting or upvoting. I want to see how the comments flow organically, not artificially biased.

              1. Persephone Mulberry*

                Yes. Any time I see a forum/comment section sorted by popularity, I resort by date anyway.

                IMO, the only thing AAM is really missing is a Like/+1 button. GFY (gofugyourself.com) does this well (and their commentariat is generally awesome, too).

          2. Florida*

            I actually like the +1 comments. If a dozen people add a +1, it lets you know that it wasn’t just one crazy person who thought the boss was a jerk in that situation, there are a dozen people who think it. Also, it’s better than a like button because you can adjust for intensity: +1 compared to +1000.

            I like it, but I can also see your point about it creating lengthy comments.

          3. Ultraviolet*

            I think some people +1 posts they agree with as a space-saving alternative to writing a whole new post that basically restates the same thing. If that’s true of a lot of regular commenters, then banning +1s might actually lengthen threads without adding much truly new content. You could ask people to post only when they have something new to add, and to refrain when they only want to agree, but I think it’s really helpful to see when a lot of commenters agree with a post.

            Also, when a pile-on is imminent, the ability to agree with a simple +1 rather than another articulation of why somebody’s wrong could in principle help. Though I don’t think I can point to a case here where it actually appears to have prevented a pile-on!

            1. Elsajeni*

              I think a Like/+1/thumbs-up/whatever button would serve both of those functions pretty well! A place that does this well is the Toast, and it does seem like it helps with pile-ons there — the Toast has a pretty well-defined commenting culture, and when someone crosses a line, they’re likely to get a polite but firm reply telling them so… and then no pile-on, because everyone just thumbs-ups the first polite but firm reply. So the person saying “Hey, that was inappropriate” ends up with 60 thumbs-ups, while the original, inappropriate comment has 3. And, of course, you can see at a glance how many people have agreed with a comment, and if people really want to emphasize their agreement (as people sometimes do with the “+1000!” comments), they can still reply.

      3. just laura*

        I agree that this would help. It’s a way for quieter commenters/readers to say, “Not interested” or “We don’t do that here” without getting into a derailment.

      5. Tomato Frog*

        I’ve thought about this and I can’t disagree strongly enough. I loved the Reddit system until I saw a thread about something that was actually an area of expertise for me. The top comment accused the OP of being a liar for a reason that I knew was factually incorrect. But it lined up with people’s preconceptions so it shot to the top, with hundreds of upvotes, while a couple of people who came to the conversation a bit later and pointed out that this was incorrect didn’t even get above the fold.

        If dogpiling is a problem, upvoting and downvoting just sort of facilitate it. Plus it makes conversations into popularity contests.

    6. Kyrielle*

      I really do not like #2. It tends not to work well, stifles discussion and results in even more duplicate comments than we’ve seen, and it also discourages new commenters from joining a site.

      I’d lean toward #1 and #4 in combination, with a little bit of #3. I would think as a first step you needn’t get too heavy on #1, but maybe be a little more ready with the ‘putting people in moderation’ part in particular (but let them get back out!). #3 will help re-establish norms and also keep it from turning into the largest part of the discussion when someone *does* overstep norms (right now it seems to turn into an argument about whether they did and what the norms are!), but I say ‘a little bit’ because I could see where hovering over the site constantly would diminish your joy in it, and that’s not good either.

      The biggest thing I can see being helpful is a reminder *post* rather than comment, re-stating the norms and asking for people to honor them /and/ not to derail too far into arguments over them if someone else doesn’t (calling them out politely is one thing, a nested thread so deep that you can’t nest further with 50+ comments arguing back and forth is another thing entirely, IMO). I have been trying to do this as well – I’ve started about 5 replies this week, taken a deep breath and said to myself ‘so and so already said that, this is just piling on’ and canceled the reply. I’m not perfect at it, but I’m trying, and I think if more of us tried we could maybe reduce the engagement around these things. Because right now they are getting a lot of engagement.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Oh, I like the reminder post idea. I didn’t know the Sandwich Rule had been added to the posting guidelines until someone else mentioned it, and it’s a great idea and example.

      2. Lore*

        I agree that a reminder post would be super-helpful. It’s so easy to skim over a nested discussion within comments, and putting the reminder front and center would also serve the purpose of telling the readership that is something you take seriously and we should too.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        You’re right — I should do a reminder post. I felt slightly ridiculous doing another one since there have been two previously, but they were a long time ago (early 2014 and early 2012).

        1. Kyrielle*

          A lot of people can join in a couple years, and also a lot of people can forget/lose track of things in that time. Or just pick up bad habits at other sites and bring them in. A reminder post might wake us all up a little bit! (Your comments in some of the threads were my ‘wake up call’ but not everyone may see those, and some people may take them as more casual than a reminder post…sort of like managers and addressing behavior in the moment vs. patterns. :)

        2. Carrie in Scotland*

          Could you maybe do a reminder comment at the top if you think that the comments might go a particular way? A shorter version of your reminder post to keep it civil, in blue at the top might work?

          1. Natalie*

            I think this would be a good idea, and go ahead and add one if things get contentious in a way that people didn’t anticipate. A lot of people simply *don’t* read the whole thread before chiming in, so you need to make your requests really prominent and un-missable.

    7. LizB*

      I think number 3 is worth a shot, especially since it might let you see if any patterns emerge in terms of what topics or people tend to get out of hand. I also think it might help us commenters self-correct a bit, if we had strong reminders for a week or two of what is and isn’t acceptable commenting behavior. After that, though, I think number 4 is the way to go, with maybe a bit of number 1 based on any patterns you noticed.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I can see the advantage of that. I do worry that people would flag stuff that I’d disagree needed to be addressed, and then they’d be annoyed that I wasn’t addressing it — they’d flagged it, after all! (I’ve had people email me to complain about specific comments that I thought were fine, and it seemed to really cause Bad Feelings that I disagreed and declined to intervene.) That’s not in an of itself a reason not to do it, but I do worry that it’s less straightforward than it seems. I need to think about it though — it could be a good solution, my discomfort notwithstanding.

        1. Natalie*

          People might view a flag differently than a personal interaction with you and be less likely to get upset.

          1. No_Registration*

            That could be useful, however I think it is hard to flag someone as devils advocate. I mentioned this below but I have been falsely accused of playing devils advocate a few times because I happened to disagree with the majority of commentators on an issue.

        3. and the flowers bloom like madness in the spring*

          People write to you and complain about specific comments?! I’m … shocked. No, I really am.

          As long as it’s your sole decision, you’re always going to have people disagreeing with you about what you decide to censor. I think you should follow your heart. Not just because it’s all romantic-sounding, but because if you start making these kinds of decisions just to keep your friends happy – I trust it’s obvious how fucked up this gets.

          I’m not just playing devil’s advocate for grins: I would ask you if you sincerely think the system is broken enough that it needs to be fixed? If you make changes, do you have objective criteria to judge their effectiveness (or lack thereof) a month from now?

          Or to put it another way: how much money are you willing to spend to fix things?

          Allowing people to flag a comment might be interesting to try – Metafilter does something like that (although that is a debatable recommendation at best). It might be difficult to administer via email, though (I could be wrong but somehow I have this notion that the comments part of your site is largely administered via email notifications). The thing with flagging is that you typically ignore anything that’s been flagged once or twice; it’s the stuff that’s been flagged 10+ times that is problematic. If the flags are coming to you via email, then say hello to lots more email traffic.

          If there’s one change I’d like to see, it would be something to make it harder for people to engage in spontaneous sock-puppetry. I don’t have access to the site logs, but it sure seems like there’s a lot of it about. Maybe a hashed version of the poster’s IP address attached to each comment? Heck, it could be embedded in the HTML – the idea isn’t to catch people doing it, the idea is to prevent it. In theory, if people know they’ll be caught, they’ll do less of it.

          1. No_Registration*

            Do you really think sock puppetry is an issue?

            Regardless I am against as it is another way to identify users and as I stated above, I have to change my username frequently or else I risk getting in trouble at work for commenting on this forum even in my own time after work.

            1. and the flowers bloom like madness in the spring*

              For what it’s worth, what I meant by “hashed version of the poster’s IP address” is that you feed the IP address to a function that turns it into something that doesn’t look like an IP address – ala “12.12.54.123” becomes “3.3.9.6” (for example) – so you can’t tell what IP address it is, but if 3 or 4 posts from previously unknown sources all appear within an hour or so and all have the same hash, you can get some idea that they all came from the same place. It would be pretty easy to come up with a better function than the one I’m using as an example here. It could even be based on the date or time so that it changes every 6 hours or so. Etc.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I don’t think there’s a ton of sock puppetry going on; it’s just really memorable when it’s called out, probably! I tend to have a pretty good instinct for when to check to see if it’s happening (I am actually convinced I might be a human lie detector, but … that’s a totally different post).

            I totally agree re: your “follow your heart” advice though — ultimately there’s no one “right” answer and no decision that will make 100% of people happy anyway, so I might as well run things the way that makes sense to me, which has pretty much always been my guiding principle with this stuff and so far it’s basically worked. But I very much want to hear what other people think, allow my thinking to be informed by that input, and generally get the benefit of other people’s wisdom, because there’s lots of it here.

          3. TootsNYC*

            . I think you should follow your heart.

            Alison, I think you have such great instincts in terms of what’s useful or what’s unkind.
            For that reason, I’m not in love with the volunteer moderators idea.

            I’ve seen it turn into something where a moderator gets sort of annoyed at someone and judges them more harshly. And I’ve also seen a moderate weigh in with the last word, then shut off the discussion–and it’s just such a bad feel to the site.

            Sometimes the less nuanced moderators are the ones that participate the most, and that very focus might not be the best for the light touch you’ve been enjoying.

    9. Mimmy*

      I’d be fine with a combination of all of those except #2 – I think that would really slow down the conversations.

    10. Fish Microwaver*

      I agree that some of the derailing and rabbit holing can be annoying and that some people are rude and harsh but these aspects are far outweighed by the wealth of opinion and experience of the posters. I like that one can comment without registering as it is sometimes necessary to be anon . So dear Alison, I am not much help. I concur with your combo of 1 and 4 approach.

    11. just laura*

      You could also include a comment in the post when you predict a post might lend itself to this– there are always those hot button topics here and it might remind commenters to mind their manners. I know you edit/add those after things get out of hand on certain posts, but I’m sure you are able to predict which ones might get feisty.

    12. Turanga Leela*

      I’d be happy with either #3 (but it sounds like a lot of work for you!) and #1. #4 is a good point, though; this is never going to be perfect.

      I also want to add how happy I am with your moderation of this comments section in general. I’m so happy that this space isn’t a free-for-all and that you address people in the comments. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to the rest of the internet.

      I agree that another post about how to comment would be helpful. I wonder about one other thing: In the commenting guidelines, you ask people not to nitpick people’s spelling, grammar, or word choices. Do you think you should also specifically mention “calling out” behavior? It seems like when people get hung up on word choice, they often think of it as calling out offensive usage, not as nitpicking. The commenting guidelines can’t address all circumstances, of course, and not everyone will listen to them anyway, but I thought this was worth considering.

      1. F.*

        I’d like to add that one person’s “offensive usage” is not necessarily offensive to others. We all have out ‘hot buttons’, so to speak, but unless someone is engaging in an actual ad hominem attack on a commenter or OP, a reminder to give benefit of the doubt as to the commenter’s intentions might be useful. In other words, just because a point of view is unpopular, it isn’t necessarily a personal attack and shouldn’t be taken as such. (hope I got my point across)

        1. AnotherFed*

          I agree. There’ve been plenty of good examples of this going well recently – someone using a relatively common phrase without knowing it’s offensive (I think it might have been the word gyped), getting 1 or 2 FYI replies, and the discussion moving on. That’s how it should be, not a 17 comment argument about whether Steve was offensive for using “” around something!

        2. Lindsay J*

          This. It’s very easy to go down the SJW rabbit hole (I know because I’ve done so myself) and flag things as offensive that aren’t intended to be and aren’t viewed as offensive by the majority.

          It’s a hard line to draw. I think most would agree that “retarded” is offensive. I have no problem with flagging that. However, what about things like “dumb” or “crazy”? Some will argue that those are offensive, and I can see the argument. However, I also feel that most people don’t mean any harm in using those words, and people calling them out and flagging them gets in the way of meaningful discourse. It can also discourage people from commenting at all because they’re afraid they will say something wrong and get dogpiled for it.

    13. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think right now you should just wait and see.

      I’ve moderated groups of all sizes for both fun and profit, and I think it #2 the only viable alternative to leaving things as-is, even though it’s not very popular. I have posted a few “anon-for-this” comments, and while it might be a bit frustrating to have those delayed, I know that I could live with that. However, it would be pretty frustrating to some regulars and many new commenters, so you would probably need to balance that against the improvement in tone. And the only way to improve that delay is to have at least 2-3 moderators with overlapping schedules.

      Since you’re ruling out volunteers, I think you might want to just wait and see for now. However, reminders not just about tone, but about not responding AT ALL to those who are being argumentative might help, because if we all start ignoring the rabble rousers, they’ll soon stop trying.

      On that note, if you ever DO consider volunteer moderators, as I’ve mentioned before, the best way to work with people when you may only interact with them online is to find a way to meet in-person, or if that’s not logistically possible, video conference with them for at least an hour or so. This ensures that you have a better basis to make assumptions or inferences about their tone or subtext, the lack of which is the main reason that flame wars are so much more prevalent on the Internet than in real life.

    14. aliascelli*

      I think #3 would be good for a little while, to provide some more detail on when & how stuff gets off track. (mmm, data!)

    15. Ad Astra*

      I like #1 and #3, though I can see how #3 would be annoying and time consuming on your end, which is an important consideration. I also think #4 is fine, especially if you can get some of the regulars to stop “feeding the trolls,” so to speak. I know “troll” isn’t the right word for people criticizing American labor laws, arguing about the relative offensiveness of various slurs, and going into “Not everyone can have sandwiches!” rants… but the idea is that we might all be happier here if we stop engaging with these comments.

    16. The Toxic Avenger*

      Thank you for posting this, Alison. I like the approach of #1, with an addition: if you publish a topic that you know is going to set off a potential firestorm (kids in the workplace, weight or other body issues, etc) then put a moderation note at the top that specifies what you expect and what kinds of comments you’ll intervene in or boot out of the thread outright. I do like that people feel free to express contrary opinions here, but I am getting tired of the social justice campaigns and endless arguing that can take place when a hot topic comes up.

    17. A Non*

      I’ve been in forums where the custom when a jerk showed up was that one or two people would respond, and then everyone would ignore them and move on with the pleasant, productive conversations. It’s definitely a culture that took reminders and maintenance, but I liked it. This blog’s culture right now is more of an “argue until there is no benefit of the doubt left”, which isn’t bad, but isn’t the only option.

      1. sophiabrooks*

        I agree- I belong to a “no moderation” group that is not closed. The regulars have agreed amongst ourselves to a) say something when we see something impolite or aggressive and gently correct the behavior and b) once one person has said something, to not pile on. We also have a system for warning and banning that does not need a moderator, but I think the next step here would be for Allison to warn or ban, since she is the moderator.

    18. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I like #3. This is a strategy I use a lot to manage problems – get more hands-on for a short period of time, get things on track, and then back off. You could also, during that period, be quick to move people to moderation. I think this might communicate well to people who are aware of what’s going and also those more casual readers who don’t keep up with the open thread, etc.

    19. HRish Dude*

      Moderation for everyone basically killed The Consumerist. Every post on their site used to have dozens – if not hundreds – of responses. There was a community that was built there…which disappeared and never came back.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        ^^^ This, although part of the problem is that it’s still a closed beta commenting system. I’m still on there as Single Malt Geek, but I hardly ever bother to comment. I started corresponding with a few dozen of the commenters I liked before the switch, and only one or two of the others were accepted as commenters.

    20. F.*

      I can’t imagine how you would find time to moderate hundreds of comments a day and still manage to have a life, especially when people write in from all over the world. I lean mostly toward #4. We are all supposed to be adults, and as such able to handle ourselves appropriately when presented with opposing viewpoints. I would hate to see this forum become just an echo chamber where a few like-minded individuals can shut down other points of view by down-voting them into constant moderation.
      You might also want to move the “How to Post”, etc. section up to the top of the page instead of in the sidebar right above an advertisement. I only read the “How to Post” this week after it was referenced in another post. (The sidebar doesn’t even show up on my cellphone.) Yes, I was one of those playing devil’s advocate at times, but I did not know it was banned here. So I will (try) to behave myself and hope I don’t inadvertently upset someone. Many of the other forums I post in allow and encourage vigorous debate, so I had just assumed it was acceptable here.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        That’s a good idea about making that link more prominent.

        Just to be clear, there’s no blanket ban on playing devil’s advocate here, and I think we have a lot of vigorous debate. “Aggressively playing devil’s advocate for the hell of it” is what the comment rules ban. The point really is, try to be helpful to the letter-writer and don’t derail the conversation on things you don’t genuinely believe. It can certainly be helpful to say “you know, I could see the other side of this being X — do you think that could be in play here?”

        1. F.*

          I’ll keep that in mind. As someone on the higher end of the autism spectrum in many aspects, I tend to be rather blunt at times.

    21. Jillociraptor*

      What would you think about having some long-time commenters serve, not so much as moderators, but kind of as culture leaders? We’re all obviously empowered to say “We don’t really do that here,” but it might be helpful to have a handful of folks who volunteer and are specifically charged with highlighting things that are about to go off the rails and helping to reel it back in.

      In a similar vein it could be helpful to “script the critical moves” per Chip and Dan Heath, and give clearer guidance on how you’d like the commentariat to generally respond to those who aren’t abiding by community rules. It’s helpful and usually effective when you make a specific note in a post not to pile on, etc. but just speaking for myself, I sometimes just bow out of a conversation when it starts to go haywire rather than hopping in to say “this is getting pretty unkind,” just because I’m not the boss of this space, but if you can say specifically how Joe Commenter can actually be helpful, I’m more than down to do that. We can all definitely take more responsibility for managing the space, but I also don’t want it to become a bunch of fiefdoms with unclear rules!

      Shout out to you for being so thoughtful about how this community is run. We have some crummy moments but by and large it’s a really great place to be.

        1. Jillociraptor*

          Yeah, exactly. I don’t want to turn your commenting guidelines into an encyclopedia, but you’ve got a really good baseline to work from there. If you could give an example of what those comments look like, and how you’d generally want us to address them (including “do not engage”), that’s something I’d gladly read and take to heart.

        2. Turtle Candle*

          I like this too. I think we saw some good examples in the “employee with body odor” post earlier–it started to go down a rabbit hole of coming up with reasons why every suggestion might not work. One of the regular commenters (I think maybe fposte?) started gently pointing out that it’s not helpful to shoot down every possible solution because it might not work for somebody somewhere, and that, even though some people can’t e.g. use deodorant, that’s a reasonable place to start in most situations. I feel like it really helped in that situation.

        3. AnotherFed*

          I think that would be a very good idea. I often choose not to engage, mostly as a default to not feed potential trolls when it’s not my space to police or decide what behavior is not welcome. If there were both the OK from you and the level of things you’d want engaged vs ignored, I think a lot of us would both be able to better recognize what’s helpful and not and willing to help remind others – we all benefit from a space that promotes civil discussion and debate rather than flame wars!

    23. No_Registration*

      Maybe instead of registration you can require the email address? That way even if people have to switch names and/or frequently switch IPs you can still know it is them and take action is needed. If email were required but not published I would not mind personally.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        Good idea, except that if I were a troll-y jerk, I’d create email addresses on the fly. I’d use an email address for one most-likely-to-be-banned persona, and then switch to another email address post-banning. Or even pre-banning, just because I’m a jerk. We’ve already seen jerk commenters change names 2-3 times while commenting on a single post. (Alison has verified it’s the same person via their IP address).

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        I have always wondered what benefit requiring an email address offers to a site moderator? AAM is one of the only sites I comment on that doesn’t require it. But since it’s not a “registration” per se, I tend to pick an email address at random (I have too many) if the site cookies don’t save it for me from visit to visit.

    24. No_Registration*

      I guess another thing I will bring up is that I have been accused of playing “devils advocate” on this forum because I happen to disagree with the majority of users on an issue. I think it is hard to prove someone is doing this, and very easy to mistakenly assume they are.

      I don’t think volunteer moderators are a good idea, because this group will often “moderate” users they happen to disagree with. This happens on Steam discussions All. The. Time.

        1. F.*

          I alluded to this above when I said I didn’t want this forum to become a echo chamber of like-minded individuals. I would never really learn anything if I only listened to those who agree with me.

      2. Turtle Candle*

        That’s certainly a reasonable point, but the issues that I think Alison is talking about (and Alison, please correct me if I’m wrong!) aren’t issues where differences of opinion are really a thing–they tend to be pretty clear-cut questioning of a straightforward statement in the OP’s letter.

        (The following are made up examples, to be clear.)

        Like the OP writes, “I’m a high performer at my job, and blah blah blah” and the reply is “Are you sure you’re a high performer? Maybe you’re just mediocre. I wish you’d provided anecdotes to back up how awesome you are.” Not an opinion, but a questioning of the premise of the email.

        Or the OP writes, “I can’t use a standard desk chair for medical reasons, so blah blah blah” and the reply is “I bet you could if you really tried. Have you considered yoga?” — and an implied “prove to me you’re really ‘sick enough.'” Like that.

        I think the openness to disagreements is a great thing, but there’s a point at which “looking at something from all sides” becomes unhelpful, when it starts to question the basic premises of the letters.

          1. So Very Anonymous*

            I’ve had the sense that example #1 is happening more lately. Not always in that particular form, but it does seem like there’s been a fair amount of giving the other people in an OP’s story the benefit of the doubt rather than the OP him/herself.

            1. Turtle Candle*

              Yes: and sometimes there’s just no winning. If you just say, “This is the situation, and my question is XYZ” you have a decent chance of getting “I question the situation, and you didn’t provide examples.” But if you say “This is the situation, for example [anecdote anecdote anecdote], and my question is XYZ,” the extra details may be nitpicked to death, or held up as evidence of defensiveness or “having something to prove” or etc. It starts to feel less like we’re reading a letter asking for advice and more like… defense counsel’s closing argument, to be analyzed for weaknesses in the story.

              And at the end of the day, the words on the page (well, screen) are all we have to go on, and there is potentially no end to questioning them if you aren’t willing to accept at face value that OP is a high performer, or can’t sit in a normal office chair, or whatever. You could always, always come up with some reason they’re wrong if you disbelieve the inherent premise. I get why people do it–humans like to make up narratives, and playing “how else might this be interpreted” has a certain intellectual entertainment. It’s just that that isn’t really all that useful for anybody (and I imagine it’s really offputting for letter writers, to come in and see people speculating that they’re mediocre/exaggerating their back problems/really an alien llama from Mars and that’s why their boss doesn’t want to promote them).

              1. So Very Anonymous*

                Yes! And also, there’s the question of anonymity. We have someone who’s chimed in on this thread saying they were recognized by coworkers and got into trouble. Sometimes you can’t provide detail because it may be too recognizable, and then if the grilling starts because you’re not specific enough, you’re kind of stuck.

                I’ve also had the feeling that people are reading OP accounts through the lenses of their own experiences, which is fine up to a point, and certainly something we all do. But at the same time, I think we should be allowing the OPs to have their own stories and be careful not to turn those stories into things they’re not.

              2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

                This is tough though because sometimes it is worthwhile to question the OP’s premise, and other times it is certainly not.

                “I’m unable to use chairs” blah blah blah.
                Questioning the OP in this case is completely not conducive to any discussion.

                “I’m managing a high performer who shows up early, leaves late, but doesn’t answer emails, isn’t finishing projects, and spends too long on unimportant tasks.”
                OP are you sure your employee is actually a high performer? It’s common for some managers to see face time as a measure of performance, but are you tracking production, having reqular performance discussions with your employees, blah blah.

                In my opinion the second instance is valid and useful to the OP. The first is simply pedantic and annoying. It’s like when people come on and post “I’m pretty sure you are lying.” What good does that do for the OP?

                1. So Very Anonymous*

                  Yes. But the people who are commenting in the second style would say they are being helpful. So it’s hard to get at how to show the differences. :S

            2. Lindsay J*

              Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of this and a lot of the “Not everyone can have sandwiches” type comments a lot more frequently than ever.

              I feel like they both come from the same devil’s advocate-y, wanting to cover every angle type of place. And it is good to consider all sides of the situation. However, since we’re only ever going to get one side of the story in an internet forum I think we generally need to take what has been explicitly stated by the OP at face value.

              And we need to keep in mind that there will pretty much always be exceptions to every rule, but that generally the OP will include most of the relevant information and so shooting down suggestions based on things that might be true for a small portion of the population isn’t helpful. Plus, that one suggestion isn’t the only suggestion is going to get. And usually the OPs participate in the comments so the OP themselves can always come on and comment and say, “Actually, I’m not able to eat sandwiches so that solution won’t work for me,” if that is indeed the case.

      3. Alma*

        I have noticed some microaggression bursts, where a poster’s word choice (for non-malicious reason) was commented on for two or three feet. That turns me away quicker than anything. The workplace is hostile enough.

    25. No_Registration*

      I was also thinking that recently I have been running into debate fallacies more often recently here. The biggest one is:

      Straw-Man Fallacy:
      A: We should relax the laws on beer.
      B: ‘No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.
      Person argued against unrestricted, however the comment was actually to reduce, not eliminate, restrictions.
      I have ran into this a lot lately!

    26. BrownN*

      I just found your website about a month ago or so ago and am thankful for the advice you and others have provided. I’ve learned that if there are problems at work, it does not necessarily mean it is me, even though management suggest otherwise.

      I was wondering how you would know which people to ban? The few times I’ve commented, I just create a name and have always used the same one. I haven’t tried it, but I’m assuming I don’t have use the same name I’ve posted with before. I’ve never enter my email or website (never understood the website part) because these fields are optional. I would think you’d have no way of tracking this if people did have the option of using different names, computers, locations, etc. or were very computer savvy. Just my thoughts on this.

      I am agree with #1 and #4.

      My biggest issue has been the number of comments received. I prefer to keep the comments collapsed, so I can decide what I want to read. I’ll read the original posts, but decide whether I want to read the comments or not. If I see 100 comments for a post, I might look to see what the hot topic is, but after a certain point, I won’t read anymore. I’ve often wished there was some way I could put place marker for where I last left off.

      I don’t know a lot of what it takes for you to do the work you do, so could you give what a typical day is like for you? Are you really sitting around all day in your pajamas, surrounding by your cats, just waiting for people to respond to your website? I figured not. Won’t this create more work for you?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        The commenting system allows you to ban or moderate by IP address. It’s not foolproof (someone could switch to a device with a different IP address), but it’s effective most of the time.

        To your last question: I run the site on top of my main work (although at this point I think about the site as part of my work and carve out time for it accordingly), so much of the time I’m doing work for clients. I’m often able to schedule that the way I want to, though, so that makes it pretty easy to do both in the same day (most days, at least). But yes, certainly moderating everything would create a ton more work, which is one of several reasons I don’t want to do that!

    27. No_Registration*

      Maybe try to head off derailments on a post by post basis as needed?

      Thinking of the overweight-chair breaker post. Maybe a starter post from you at the very top that says something like.

      “I realize a post like this could lead commentators to want to debate the societal price of obesity or how overweight individuals are treated in society, but please refrain from this and instead focus on helping the manager best address this conversation”

      2. Stephanie*

        I’ve seen her do this on some posts. One that comes to mind was about an employee coming to work with (legally registered) concealed gun, Alison posted to not get into a gun control debate. Alison, did you find that helped?

        Of course, some aren’t as predictably controversial like that one earlier this week about the employee missing the weekend conference.

            1. Apollo Warbucks*

              It seemed to me the majority opinion was the OP was right, and commenters who supported the OP were a lot harder on the employee (saying he should be fired and it was all his fault) than people were on the OP. (He could have helped by reminding the employee, or done more to keep it on the employees radar especially as he was new to the firm.)

              I was criticised for expressing my opinion and told I was nitpicking word choice, trying to beat down the OP and rather bizarrely that I was demanding a public apology from the OP (even after I said that’s not what I was doing I was told “but you are”). I was really surprised by that response, comments like that suguest not just disagreement with my point of view but that I wasn’t welcome to express my opinion at all.

              You posted a comment that you were baffled by the responce to the letter and someone else replied “yes so am I, it’s been bugging me all day.” Why should a difference of opinion bug someone?

              As for what can be done to keep the conversation on point and more helpful to letter writers that’s difficult but I don’t think stronger moderation is the best way to do it, my general feeling is we do a good job of commenting politely and civilly and the group as a whole does gently challenging or rebutting truly offensive behaviour.

              I think the trap I fell into the other day was trying to have a conversation with commentors which resulted in a back and forth between us I think the best thing that I could have done is take 10 minuets to collect my thoughts write one last stand alone comment and be done with it, rather than carry on talking with people after I realised we weren’t going to agree.

              Following from that you talk about playing devils advocate for the hell of it, I do not think the derailments we’ve seen are the result of people arguing their position for the hell of it, but rather trying to make a contribution and express their genuine opinion about a letter, the fact that this behavour is coming from regular commentors would seem to support that.

              Maybe you could ask people not to engage in a back and forth with individual commentors where no progress is being made towards a consensus, but instead summaries their opinion in their own comment and move on, it would mean people being vigilant and attuned to the way the the comment thread is going and then not getting over invested in defending their point of view and being prepared to move on.

      3. Tris Prior*

        I’ve seen Captain Awkward place comments like this on posts that have the potential to go to ugly places in the comments thread and it seems to work pretty well. (actually, I think she usually puts it as a mod note at the end of her posts.)

        1. Windchime*

          Captain Awkward will also close comments if they start to go astray too badly. I know that Alison has only had to do that a couple of times, but it’s another option.

          I do really like the idea of having long-time commenters agree to a standard of behavior. I’ve seen this work well in instances where a poster will say something really unkind of off-base–a long-timer will say, “Hey, that’s not cool; we don’t talk to people like that here”, and that will usually shut-down the offender. If we can all agree to self-moderate and to use a little self-control when we see that the aggressive devils’ advocating or nit-picking on the OP is happening, then I think we can contribute to an even better comment section than we already enjoy here.

          Better behavior on the part of regulars, plus more frequent reminders from Alison regarding commenting guidelines, plus maybe a week or so of more stringent moderating may be all it takes.

    28. Not So NewReader*

      The thing that jumps out at me is where you say the comments are coming from within the regular group. This is important to know.

      With that being the case, I think that special action is needed to fit that situation. I think develop a system. For example, first offense is a warning with explanation of what is wrong. Second offense is a suspension, a time off from being able to post here. Third offense is permanent blocking. Maybe that sounds too harsh, but you see my general idea at least.

      There have been a couple times where I have seen you go right after someone for what they are saying. I think that it made all of us stop and think. I know it made the offender stop and think.

      Regular readers here will not want to lose their priviledge of posting. Passers-by would not care either way, but regulars are more apt to care. Those who genuinely do not understand what is wrong could salvage the situation by asking for clarification and perhaps apologizing or explaining what they were trying to say whichever action is appropriate. (Many of us have done that, tried to say one thing and it came out ambiguous. It’s easy to do.)

      The common thread through all the behaviors that you have listed is that the resulting posts are not helpful to the OPs. Nitpicking, derailments, devil’s advocate and other siding are not proactive. These statements do not give the OPs an action plan for their problems. “How does this comment help the OP? Is this something the OP can put into action?”

      On the other hand, the OPs that post in the comment section seem to make out much better than those who don’t post. The speculations drop way down because OP has answered the particular question. We have had a couple of OPs that seemed stuck somehow, and that did not go very well. But for the most part the OPs are interesting to interact with. Maybe you can advise (warn?) the OPs that they would get comments more suited for their setting if they participate in the comment section. I can see, though, that some OPs might just want your advice and they’d let the rest of the discussion go.

      The nitpicking and devil’s advocate behaviors are the ones that bother me. And it is because the same thing gets said 13 times. It does not bother me if it’s said once. I can easily think, “Okay, I can see how a person could feel/believe that. Thanks for making me aware.” But after the tenth time of repeating the same thing, I am no longer thinking that way. The thirteenth time it is said I am so sunk. It’s the repetition that kills the read for me.

      In short because these are regular posters, you do have leverage. That makes it easier to solve than if the source was just random people who were passing through. It’s not as bad as herding cats. You have a fair idea of the repeat offenders. It could be that you might need to ban someone because they will never understand or work with your goals here.

  41. MousyNon*

    I just started a new job! I got headhunted through linkedin (some companies recruit aggressively through social media so definitely keep your profiles up-to-date!). It’s in an entirely different industry than my last job, and an incredible salary bump, but I think the most interesting thing about this experience so far has been how different it is switching jobs as a mid-career professional rather than entry level (this is my second non-internship job out of college).

    I keep defaulting into “entry level” mindset–like I’m still an assistant–when I have years of experience under my belt. I’m also having serious imposter syndrome/crisis of confidence issues. Is this just a normal transitional phase? Any advice from first time job-changers who’ve gone through it?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I think it’s normal but I agree that it’s a disconcerting! Everything about the whole process of changing jobs when you’re no longer entry level is very different. They have the expectation that you’ll have knowledge and be able to convey it, the interviews are more in depth, they (generally) seem to expect you to be able to get up to speed more quickly… at least in my experience.

  42. squids*

    I’ve got it on good authority that a job that I would really, really like to have will be posted some time soon. The trouble is, I haven’t seen the job posting, and my sources haven’t let me know how things will be worded, and what qualifications will be required. In my mind, this is a great fit, but … can’t help thinking, what if they decide to go in an entirely different direction with it?

    I’ve been waiting around for this possibility, not applying to anything else in the meantime. (I know, not a good strategy, but really my field in this region is such a small community and I have no intention of accidentally burning any bridges.)

    Anyone else been in this position? Are there strategies to start preparing for an application when I haven’t seen a job description yet, but have had long talks with two of the people who will be on the hiring committee (it’s a very small world), over the past two years, about why they want to set up this new role?

    1. Jennifer*

      I am in this position and there really isn’t anything you can do until they set their requirements in stone and list the job. Anything you do to prep now may be very well thrown out the window when they change their minds.

  43. AJay*

    Is it ever a good idea to move from a job with a lot of job security to a one year contract position? I have been in my first professional job out of school for almost 3 years and am ready to move on to something new. I saw an opening in another city for a position that I am really excited about, and it’s in a city that I would love to move to! The problem is that it is a one year contract, and that the cost of living is significantly more expensive than where I am currently living. Since I’m still early in my career I’m trying to weigh the pros and cons, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the risk.

    1. Dawn*

      What’s the potential for the contract to be extended/changed to a permanent position? There are plenty of companies that will do that- hire someone on for a year and then evaluate if the position needs to be extended or moved to a perm basis. What’s the job market in the city like in your field? Do you have enough savings that if, after one year, you were dropped from the contract and were unemployed without benefits for some time while finding other work? Are you comfortable with starting another job search 8 months into your contract so you can line something up before the contract ends? Could you perhaps just keep looking in this city for a permanent position instead of moving for a contract position?

      1. Sunflower*

        Yes to all of this. I know plenty of companies who have 1 year contracts and continue to renew them with the existing employee.

        Also what kind of job do you have that it has a lot of security? If you are employed at will and entry-level, while I doubt they would ever just walk in and fire you, there is always a possibility you could be let go with little to no warning.

    2. the_scientist*

      In addition to Dawn’s questions, which are great, make sure you understand the nature of the contract position. I’m sure this is region/law-dependent, but my previous position was a 3-year contract position with no possibility of renewal, and no benefits, paid sick time, or paid vacation. Legally, they were required to pay me a percentage of my hourly rate in lieu of sick/vacation time, but in practice, I was being so wildly underpaid to begin with that taking a vacation of longer than a couple of days or an extended illness would have been financially catastrophic for me (high COL area). The lack of benefits (in addition to the unchallenging nature of the job, general dysfunction and meager salary) was a major impetus for me to leave that job after a little over a year, and I luckily managed to land a permanent position- HOWEVER, at my new employer, contract employees get the same benefits as permanent, so it does vary from company to company.

      All I’m saying is, don’t underestimate the importance of benefits/vacation time, which I think younger people often do. Being able to go to the dentist is the absolute best, and having to start a new job search every 8 months or so is exhausting. That being said, if this is a city you want to live in, and you’ve got a bit of financial cushion, and you have minimal attachments…..why not? The longer you wait to make a drastic change like this, the more likely you are to be anchored to a specific place, so it’ll be easier to do it now.

  44. Sunflower*

    I have been so MIA for the past few weeks. I resigned from my job and took a 1.5 week break from any work/most online outlets and it felt amazing! Although I did miss everyone here.

    I start my new job on Monday!! Any suggestions for the first day/starting a new job? I’ve only worked for small companies(50 people or less) and this is the first +1,000 employee company I’ve been with. The first 2 days are mostly training. I will also be selecting a benefits package(ppo or high deductible) and will have a meeting with the Sr. Benefits Manager. Any advice on what kinds of questions to ask? I already have all the plan information and am pretty sure I know which plan i’m going with but not sure what to expect. I’M SO EXCITED THOUGH!!!

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I have no advice but I do have a question! I’ve only worked for small companies, like you. How did you make the transition to a larger company? I find I often don’t get interviews from larger companies, or I don’t make it very far in the process.

      1. Sunflower*

        As far as getting in the door, honestly I just applied off Linkedin/found the posting on Indeed and applied online. I found out a recruiter I had worked with very briefly in the past knew the HR coordinator so that may have helped a bit. I am in corporate event planning so my new position is with a law firm but I’m grouped in marketing which is considered support services and grouped with communications/PR+marketing+events. There are about 30 of us total so even though the firm is much bigger, we are kind of like a small team inside it.

        I think what helped me a lot was to emphasize how in a small company, it’s important to wear a lot of different hats and know how to work between each department. Also because I didn’t have to deal with a lot of red tape, I was able to do a lot more things than a person in my role at a large org. would be able to do so I gained additional skills.

        Also I got kind of lucky and his position was truly a perfect fit for both of us. Working at small company, and as the only one in my position, I got a lot more hands on/management experience than another person at my level would get. This particular position is a coordinator but they really wanted someone who was able to manage when needed. My manager is in a diff. city so it was very important for the person to be able to handle things independently without the aide of a manager and that’s not something a lot of people applying for a this role would be able to do. i was also running into walls because every position I applied to, i was either over or unqualified. It just kind of worked that my experience and their need matched up perfectly this time.

    2. LCL*

      I did not do what I am advising, but I wished I had. Find out who deals with benefits and can answer questions, and get their contact information. Large companies have large HR/Benefits department, and you need to talk to the right person.

    4. NDQ*

      I’m a big believer in the high-deductible plan if it allows you to fund an HSA instead of an FSA as the health savings account is an investment account you can keep and build rather than have to spend each year.

      Good luck in the new job. Ask questions. You might have 30 days to complete your enrollment so don’t make big decisions in a rush.

      NDQ

  45. Maxwell Edison*

    Doing the happy dance because two of my best friends have been able to leave their nasty, toxic jobs and get much nicer and better-paying work.

  46. Myrin*

    Ah yes, I’ve been waiting for this thread!

    So, I saw this post on tumblr and wanted to ask your opinions on it.

    I was reminded of some letters from not too long ago – like the one just last week with the clothing store employee who was fired for writing a rude text about a customer, or the thing that is referenced sometimes where an employee was fired for racist remarks on Twitter – but I feel like none of these scenarios is quite like this and I’d like to ask your thoughts.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Well, they got the NLRA part wrong. The NLRA protects your right to complain about wages and working conditions with your coworkers — not to the world at large. This doesn’t look like an NLRA violation.

      But I think it’s pretty reasonable to decline to work with someone who posts what she did; she clearly has terrible judgment and a distinct, uh, lack of enthusiasm about the work. No need to invite that on to your staff before she’s even started.

      1. Naomi*

        I can see firing her for that… but I also found the employer’s reply tweet smug and condescending. He would have done much better to fire her in private.

    2. Colette*

      I’m not an expert, but I don’t think this is illegal – the poster wasn’t discussing working conditions or pay, just complaining that she was going to start a job.

      But overall, companies want employees who don’t hate their jobs – especially if they’re going to be dealing with customers. We’ve all had the experience of dealing with a customer service rep who doesn’t care, and it does affect how we think of the company. If the OP had made the comment into the intercom at a ball game, she would have been fired. Twitter is the same sort of environment – you’re talking to a large number of people and you don’t know who’s listening.

    3. Elsajeni*

      Hmm. My first thought is wondering how the employer found the employee’s tweet — it doesn’t look like her account has her full name on it, and she didn’t mention the name of the company, so it doesn’t seem like it would have been easily searchable. I think it’s reasonable for an employer or hiring manager to do some simple searches of an employee’s/applicant’s name and check out their online presence, or for an employer to search (or have an alert set up for) their company’s name — but if the employee’s Twitter is separated from her real name and he had to do more digging to find it, I think that was inappropriate and he shouldn’t have sought it out. And I don’t think he should have handled it a) as publicly as he did, by replying to her on Twitter, or b) as douchily as he did (“Good luck with your no money, no job life!”). But… I also don’t think he was wrong to fire her over it, once he had seen it (and even more so if it actually wasn’t as hard to find as I’m imagining, like, her Facebook page with her real name and employer on it links to her Twitter).

      1. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

        If I recall correctly the tweet was seen by an employee and shown to the owner.

      2. The IT Manager*

        I agree that he could have handled the firing better, but I figured the boss was following her on twitter or something (someone sent it to him) because she posted to day before she starts (a little late to be social media checking) and he fired her the same day.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      My opinion on this:
      1. It was unprofessional for the employee to post that publicly.
      2. It was perfectly fine the employer to fire that employee.
      3. It was unprofessional (and unnecessary) to have the firing be a public spectacle.

    5. BRR*

      Well, it wouldn’t be the first time on tumblr somebody was misinformed about the law.

      But really everybody sucks and maybe they actually belong together.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Since this is not the first time something similar has happened, I am wondering why she thought this was a good idea. Although things may change in the future, right now, the comments you make online can be used against you in a manner like we see here. It’s not a surprise.

      I have reported comments that were not on made on the internet. So I can understand why the comment got forwarded to the boss. The job was hard enough without having unwilling coworkers.

      I do agree the boss should have made the firing a private conversation.

  47. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    My boss has decided that social media is The Future. He wants me and a coworker to handle all social media (on top of our actual full time jobs) but he wants to be able to vet everything first. I mean, I had to explain to him what a hashtag was used for and why Twitter is a more responsive and fluid medium than, say, Facebook tends to be–and then he gave us a lecture on “Don’t go around tweeting pictures of your coffee cups and friends!”

    So on top of his self-admitted ignorance of social media and the fact that he needs to verify everything we do, my coworker literally picked the first line out of a marketing email my boss wrote and asked if she could tweet it. His response? “Needs better grammar. Sloppy. Add capitals.” THOSE WERE YOUR WORDS.

    So, interesting week at my work.

    1. Anie*

      Hahahahahaha. Yes. This is life. I see it soooo often. I want to rage but usually end up sitting in the corner wondering who hired these people.

    2. AVP*

      omigosh do we have the same boss? Last week he learned that we should be HASHTAGGING things, but he “gave me a pass on having to do that because he knows how hard that is to figure out and how you basically need a masters degree is marketing to learn about hashtags.” And he needs to approve everything we post or send out, but doesn’t want to do so more than every few days, but then still wants to send things out days after they were relevant because he’s just catching up on them.

      3. AVP*

        #mastersdegreesforeveryone!

        I didn’t exactly agree with him that hashtagging would be really difficult, but I also didn’t point out that our co-worker’s 10 year old regularly posts things online properly and, as of yet, has not even graduated from middle school. Much better if he doesn’t know.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Oh, this feels familiar. I’ve had more than one manager come up with a not-quite-there idea for a hashtag campaign that they want me to run. Usually I can tell before the campaign starts that it won’t be successful, but it still looks like my fault when nobody wants to #engage with our #brand.

    4. Stella Maris*

      “My boss has decided that social media is The Future.”

      Maybe your boss needs to meet my former boss, who told those of us advocating for a social media presence that “social media is Just A Fad”.

    5. Sunflower*

      Ouch I’m pulling my hair out just thinking about this. i totally see this happening at a lot of places. Bosses know social media is THE FUTURE but they don’t want to hire someone who is a pro to do it. They also don’t understand that just because you know how to use something doesn’t mean you know how to properly use it to serve it’s desired purpose. I have seen way too many people just keep churning out content on a business FB or Twitter page not realizing they are annoying people and discouraging them.

      I know how to use twitter and facebook. I know how to post tweets and pictures and videos etc. I don’t know a whole lot about how to use it for business. I’d need to do a lot of research and probably attend a couple conferences to understand that. So yeah I’m sorry!

    6. Persephone Mulberry*

      #ermahgerd #imsorry

      One of the basic tenets of social media is that it is real time and responsive, and to make that happen you need to be willing to give content approval authority to the person(s) actually generating the content.

  48. MAB*

    Alright I have a question for a friend.

    He has been passed over for promotions due to “not having good visibility on projects.” Which I personally think is a little of his own fault and a little of his managers. The recommendation he got was to add more to the company’s wiki page to help with that. What other things could he do to get good visibility?

    1. TCO*

      He should make sure to take credit for his own accomplishments. I sometimes encounter the same challenge, and I’m coming to realize that I don’t always publicly take enough credit for my own work. For instance, I put together a good proposal and sent it to upper management, but almost wrote, “We [my boss and I] recommend this theme for the event,” when the theme was entirely my idea that I developed and then brought to my boss. I convinced myself to write, “I recommend…” even though it felt a little bold.

    2. AVP*

      Can he volunteer to present their project at a meeting or conference? Even just participating in an internal meeting and sounding knowledgable can be enough to get visibility, if the right people are in the room.

    3. NicoleK*

      Find opportunities to speak and share in meetings (especially if the decision makers are present). Serve on committees and meetings for projects.

  49. stellanor*

    I’m doing three informationals next week to find out about jobs I might want, since after dragging out the ominous implications for over a month I was finally *officially* told my position is being eliminated. I’m not sure what I should ask, though. What does the day to day look like in this position? What tools/software do you use? What skills do you think are most important for the person in this job? I’ve never done these before.

      1. stellanor*

        At the end of the day what I want to know is 1. am I likely to be a successful candidate for this job, and 2. if the job will allow me to grow in the direction I want.

        Informationals are part of our internal transfer process so I think it’s a little different than average, since it’s me and either the hiring manager for a job I’m interested in or a someone I’d be working with as a peer in a job I’m interested in sort of feeling each other out. The stated goal is to determine whether I’m a fit for the job and the job is a fit for me.

  50. Mimmy*

    The thread yesterday about justifying wanting part-time work got me thinking about my situation. I’ve been thinking (and thinking….) about restarting my job search and aiming for part-time day hours. For me, the reasons would be:

    1) wanting to remain involved with my volunteer councils and to accommodate my online classes (I expect to finish next spring) and,
    2) It’s been so long since I’ve had full-time hours, I think jumping right back in the water would be too much right away.

    So….are these justifiable reasons if I were to be asked why I’m seeking a part-time job?? If I do well, I would likely want to go back to full-time, but that wouldn’t be for a few years. And, who knows, I know some part-time jobs grow to full-time, but I would never push it.

    1. fposte*

      1) yes; 2) no. On one, the coursework is the big thing to emphasize; you’re wanting to make sure you don’t sound like a dilettante who’s dabbling in employment. Which is kind of the reason why you don’t want to bring up 2) as well, since most people dive right back in to full time.

      1. Mimmy*

        Oooh good point. I’ll admit I’m not “most people” :P Maybe I should just wait until I finish school, then look for full-time. Though I’d probably end up dropping my councils because their meetings are during the daytime.

        What did you mean by “dilettante”? The definition I found said “amateur” or “nonspecialist”.

        1. fposte*

          Google’s response definition was “a person who cultivates an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge.” That’s what you’re trying to avoid.

          I think it’s fine to wait until you’re finished with school if you want, but if you think part time is really going to suit you better, school is a ready-made justification for sticking to part time.

    2. Sunflower*

      1 is definitely good. i think the main thing someone looks for when hiring for part-time that is intended to stay part time is a candidate who also intends to stay part-time. Those things will definitely make you look good!

  51. Cereal Killer*

    Has anyone successfully pitched working remotely (as in a different country, not just from home) to their company/manager? I love the work that I do, but my ideal situation would be one that would allow me to do this work from where I want- in which case I would travel around, spending a month or two in a different location. Right now I’m doing contract work for a large corporation. I know they want to hire me full-time, but they just had a massive re-org and it’s going to take time for everything to settle and hiring to resume. I have no idea how long this will take, but my contract is up in January.

    There are already some people that work remotely for the company, though they are in permanent locations. About 90% of my work can be done remotely, with the 10% being interviewing consumers. This could be location limiting, as in we want to know about US consumers therefore I need to be in the US to do these interviews. But there is a lot of talk about having a more global view so that works in my favor somewhat.

    Anyone have any tips about how I could present this to my manager? Anything I should make sure to include or cover? Or things you wish you knew ahead of time? Sorry if this is somewhat spastic, I was trying to get this up fast before the comments section filled up!

    1. The IT Manager*

      This may not be possible since employee is subject to tax laws of the location that they work meaning. Your employer would have to be changing who/how much they pay your employee taxes each time you move. The laws your employer is subject to would change to. Also do you have work Visas for all of those countries?

      1. BRR*

        These were my immediate concerns. If the company is not set up, I can’t imagine they would establish this for one person.

    3. Sunflower*

      I thought about doing this a lot. I would research companies that already let employees do this! I know there are more than a few who let their employees work anywhere globally. Try googling distributed companies and see if you can find any info on how their model works.

      I also really desired to do what you are hoping to do so I thought a lot about it. These are questions I asked myself when I was thinking of doing it so you might anticipate them from your employer
      – Will you be able to focus on work when you are moving every few months?
      – how will you set up a secure internet connection and working space if you are moving every month or two?
      – How will you deal with working if you don’t have a true ‘home’ and/or support system nearby

    4. Thinking out loud*

      I had a nearly full time job doing tech support for a software company while I was in college in California, and I wanted to go live on the east coast for a summer. I sold the time change as a value – you can start tech support earlier if I’m on the east coast! – and they went for it. Any chance that you can explain why you’ll get all your normal work done but it’ll be even better if you do it from a distance?

  52. Mimmy*

    I also have a second question: Where do avid AAM readers go for help with rebuilding or changing their careers? This sounds horrible, but because I read and have absorbed many of the principles advocated for in this column, I’ve become leery of traditional resources, such as college career centers (mine isn’t very alumni friendly anyway :( ) and government agencies such as one-stops and even vocational rehab (I have a disability).

    1. Colette*

      Do you want an organized program, or is this something you want to manage yourself? If you want a program, career centres/government agencies have access to resources . That doesn’t mean you have to believe or do everything they suggest – you’d still want to be sceptical – but they might get you going. Alternatively, you could reach out to people in your network for help/advice (as long as the help you’d want from each person is small).

    2. Soupspoon McGee*

      Oooh! I’m in the middle of a career change, so I can tell you what worked for me.

      First, I had to figure out what I wanted to do. I took classes here and there in areas that interested me. I read “I Could Do Anything . . . If I Only Knew What It Was” by Barbara Sher and really spent time doing the exercises she suggests. It was enormously helpful. Because of that resource and personal experiences, physician assistant studies resonated with me.
      http://www.amazon.com/Could-Anything-Only-Knew-What/dp/0440505003

      Then I researched. I found online forums and blogs for people in that profession and for students in the midst of training. I looked at federal and state reports about the labor market. I looked at specific educational programs to understand what they required and valued. I found that national and state professional associations. I did some job shadowing. I talked to people in related fields.

      When I ready to take the plunge, I took more classes to prove to myself that I could do it (in my case, I’d been afraid of chemistry for over 20 years . . . and I got an A). Then I left my job and immersed myself in more classes and part-time work related to the field. Now I’m applying to grad programs.

  53. Locks*

    I’m currently working full-time in a construction management job that is sucking the life out of me, and about six months ago I made the decision to try something new and apply to grad school to get my MLIS in 2016 (with the intent of continuing to work and save up money until then).

    I know that librarianship is a field where experience is very important to breaking in. This morning I saw a job posting for a part-time temporary library assistant position in my city that I’m very seriously considering applying for. The position is for about a year, which would bring me to where I’d be leaving for graduate school. A cursory examination of my finances says I could make this work, although of course I’d take a closer look before accepting an offer or anything.

    What I’m wondering is: how much of this should I put into my cover letter? Obviously nothing about the financials and hating my current job, but can I say that I’m planning to pursue an MLIS and want to get experience in the field? I know they don’t necessarily care about what experience I want to get.

    1. fposte*

      I’d lean toward a yes on this. It differentiates you from “I can clerk and this job came open” to “I’m really focused on this field.” Since it’s a time-limited contract, it’s not a problem for you to sound like you’re leaving, the way it would otherwise.

    2. squids*

      Yes, definitely include that you’re applying to an MLIS program in your cover letter. It’ll signal that you’re invested in the field, and not just looking for any pleasant-sounding job.
      Though, be warned that with the job market as it is right now, you may be competing against MLIS graduates for that same position.

  54. I'm a Little Teapot*

    This week my very part-time job (a few hours a week, and not even every week) contacted me to tell me that I need to attend mandatory training.

    Unfortunately, all the possible training times are during the week, when I work a regular schedule at my full-time job. It’s the busy season for my FT job, I am not in a position that gets any PTO at all, and it would take a long time to get to and from where the training for my PT job is. So I’d have to take off most of a day from the FT job to attend, unpaid and probably in trouble – and I have not been paid for required training at my PT job in the past, so I doubt the training will even be paid. (I am hourly nonexempt at both jobs.)

    I explained this situation to my boss at PT Job, but he told me I need to discuss it with HR. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good relationship with HR at PT Job; when a previous full-time contract position ended and I filed for unemployment, they contested my unemployment even though they have never offered me more than 4 hours a week. This held up my check for several months and involved a hearing, where I saw the notes the HR person wrote about the situation; she seemed to think I was unreasonable to file for UI, even though I obviously can’t pay my bills on 4 hours a week! So it’s pretty clear she doesn’t understand or doesn’t care about the situations of casual PT folks with FT jobs elsewhere.

    A part of me wants to quit the PT job. But it’s a job in the field I went to school for, which is very hard to get jobs in, and I’ve had it for a fairly long time. It’s a pretty important part of my resume, despite being for so few hours a week, and when my temp jobs run out it’s still there – even if it ends up setting me back financially because of the UI snafu. My FT job is temp with the possibility of becoming perm, and while my previous experience urges me to regard that as an empty promise I have actually heard of the company hiring temps on for good. I’m not sure what to do.

    1. TCO*

      What do you have to lose by discussing it with HR? I get that they’ve been awful in the past, but will it hurt to ask?

    2. Dawn*

      Don’t jeopardize the bird in the hand for a potential of two in the bush. Your current full-time job pays the bills and seems to have a good possibility of becoming perm. Your PT job has already demonstrated that they’re total buttheads when it comes to things like paying UI benefits in a totally reasonable situation and obeying the law when it involves paying people for work-related training. You’ve been in your PT job long enough that you can still put that experience on your resume and that will reflect well on you so I say if you can financially swing it, dump the PT job.

    3. Ad Astra*

      I think it’s worth going to HR even if you don’t have a great relationship with them. I’m pretty sure it’s illegal for them to require unpaid training for a non-exempt employee (anyone want to back me up on this). You may be able to get what you need by calmly explaining that you don’t want to put the company in legal jeopardy, so you can’t attend the training.

      If that doesn’t work, it may be time to leave that job. Taking an unpaid day off during your FT job’s busy period will cost you money and really hurt your chances of getting a permanent position. It’s just not worth it.

  55. T3k*

    Question about asking for references: how often do you guys check with your references to let them know you’re applying around? I apply to jobs about 2-3 times a week and if the application asks for them I put them down, but I’m not sure how often I have to check with my references to make sure it’s alright to continue listing them. And obviously calling every time it comes up would be a nuisance.

    1. fposte*

      I might touch base three months or so after the first query to say “I’m still searching–how often do you want me to check in with you?”

      This is another reason why it’s nice to tell your references when you get the job–they know they can stand down. Otherwise I assume they’re still searching.

      1. Sunflower*

        I agree with this. Generally every few months is good. it also might be a good idea to let them know if you are close to the offer/reference checking stage. I’ve never had an employer check my references without asking me first if it’s okay and it always comes at the final stage.

        1. T3k*

          Yeah, that’s the other thing that scares me, is when they automatically want you to fill in references during the initial application stage, so I don’t know if they contact them before even asking for an interview or what.

          1. fposte*

            That’s because it’s a PITA to hunt them down, most of the time, not because we want to talk to them earlier.

  56. AnonEventPlanner*

    My boss complains more than anyone I know. About everything! Don’t get me started on how badly she treats janitors/maids/waiters/service people …and I’m an event planner, so we encounter these service people often. She has a very demanding attitude and will often complain about things to our vendors that they aren’t even aware was a problem. Sometimes the things she complains about are industry standard, but she wants an exception. I prefer to be kind, ask for what I need, and give people the benefit of the doubt.

    My boss doesn’t like that though. Recently she’s been telling me that *I* need to complain more. Last week, we had a lunch meeting for 15 people. I called a catering company to get a quote on food. They said a platter of sandwiches said would feed 10 people. I’d never worked with this company before, but my boss had, and when I showed her the quote, she told me that the platters are actually huge and would easily feed 20, and told me to just order one. I placed the order and when it arrived, sure enough, it was definitely meant for 10. We scraped by, but she was upset and insisted their portions used to be bigger.

    Here’s where it gets weird: when we got back to the office, she told me to call the catering company and complain. I asked her what I should complain about, and she said to tell them that our platter didn’t feed all our guests. I was confused about why I should complain because WE were the ones that ordered the wrong amount of food! When I tried to ask her what kind of outcome we wanted from my complaint to the company (refund? discount? bigger portions next time?), she didn’t have an answer. She just wanted me to complain. I called them and said what she wanted, and the catering guy was like, “Uh…sorry?” I felt terrible complaining to them about something that wasn’t their fault.

    I’m getting concerned about our reputation with some of these vendors. And I don’t want to my own reputation to look bad either, because I would never act like that or complain that much. How can I handle these situations in the future?

      1. AnonEventPlanner*

        In the past, I’ve tried this but it hasn’t really worked. My boss does follow up with me and asks point-blank if I completed the task. She probably wouldn’t find out, but I just didn’t feel comfortable not doing it or lying and saying I’d done it.

    2. TCO*

      Is there a way to tactfully let the vendors know that you’re not the one actually complaining? “Thank for the platters; the food was delicious and we got a lot of compliments. My boss, though, was concerned that the portions might have been smaller than she remembered from previous orders. She asked me to pass along the feedback. Thanks again for such delicious sandwiches, and I look forward to working with you again.”

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Your boss is used to the “gimme” discount, where the customer comes up with a complaint, valid or not, and demands and expects some sort of compensation. In my opinion it’s borderline fraud when someone uses it all the time, but that doesn’t really matter because it’s not illegal and it’s what she wants, so it’s a question of whether you want this job enough to do something that feels wrong to you.

      2. AnonEventPlanner*

        I think this is part of the reason for sure. I agree that it’s nearly fraudulent when people use it all the time…my ex in-laws did that and it drove me nuts.

        But I think for my boss, her motivations for doing this are different. I work for a non-profit so I feel like there’s some entitlement going on (“we deserve a discount because we’re a non-profit”), as well as pressure to stay within budget. But the companies that serve us have to stay in business too! In this case, she didn’t even want a refund or discount, but there was a problem and she wanted them to know it was *their fault,* and definitely not hers (even though it kinda was).

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      My experience with people like these is that they also never take responsibility for things that go wrong–it’s always someone else’s fault–and their constant complaining/lack of responsibility are a whirlwind of drama they drag along with them. If you can, I’d consider whether it would be worthwhile to look for another job; I’ve seen bosses like these throw you under the bus without hesitation. It’s also killer on the stress level.

      As for future events, you can’t control your company’s reputation, you can only control yours, and you have to decide whether that’s more important than your relationship with your boss.

      I do like TCO’s wording to try to tactfully walk the middle ground.

      1. AnonEventPlanner*

        I agree completely, I think your judgment of this situation is 100% correct. I am definitely looking elsewhere because my stress level is through the roof.

    5. Sunflower*

      If i helps, at my old job, my boss would try to literally squeeze pennies out whenever he could. Same thing he would guarantee much less than our attendee number and often times we’d scrape by on food then he would complain. I would make a point to say ‘i checked with Bob on the order and this is what we need’. Make sure you let the vendor know that it’s your boss who is making the decisions, not you.

      also if your boss is dealing with them on her own, the vendors will figure it out on their own. Something I learned at my old job is that the vendors learned who was making the decisions and who was just following orders. they seem to have sympathy for the lower rung people who are just doing what they’re told. i spent a lot of my days dealing with uncomfortable situations like the ones you mentioned above and I left my job on good terms with almost all my contacts/vendors.

      If it happens again, call and don’t complain, just ask. Say something like ‘Last time Bob ordered a plate for 10 it was much bigger. Did you guys change portion size?’. Usually you will get an explanation that you can give to your boss.

    6. AnonymousForThis*

      I can relate to this. I also plan events. It’s a constant struggle to keep my colleagues and senior leadership happy and separate from my vendors and consultants. I find my colleagues have completely unreasonable expectations and no respect for the work I or vendors do to prepare for events or the time that’s required to get that stuff done (that’s normally the gist of the complaints I hear). When I get complaints that I know are unreasonable, I will be really direct with my supervisor about it. It does impact your reputation at the end of the day. On occasion when they’ve been really insistent about something unreasonable, I’ve just explained the situation to the vendor (with a lot of apologies and an acknowledgment of how much I appreciate their work) and ask if they can help me find middle ground to propose to my team.

      These situations are the worst, because in reality as an event planner, those vendors are sometimes more valuable long-term contacts than your boss or colleagues.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      If it were me, I would have to see if I could change this or I would have to leave. I can’t spend my entire day running other people down.
      It sounds like you don’t want to leave. That gives you the other option of talking it over with her. Start with the saying, “You get more flys with honey than you do with vinegar.” Go on to talk about being blacklisted by vendors because of the negative attitude and negative comments and excessive demands.

      The two of you have core differences. There are a lot of people out there that still believe angry people work harder. And that is simply not true. You get more mistakes, more oversights and more problems when you have an angry crew. However, the tactic still remains in use. Am wondering if your boss is one of those people that still believes anger is a motivator.

      One thing I have done is said, “My personality type is such that I cannot do this repeatedly. I can do it when the situation calls for it, but I cannot do it as standard procedure. You hired me to get results for you. If I am getting the results you want, does it matter if my methods are different from yours?”

      In this particular situation, where you had to call and complain I would have spoken up. BECAUSE, I know she will only keep making me do this and I don’t want to, I can’t. I would have said something like, “I cannot complain to them. They said the platter would feed ten people and that is what they gave us. They gave us what they said they would give us. We got what we paid for. I will not be able to persuasively argue we did not. For me to call them would gain us nothing but bad will.”

      The next time this happens, you can say, “I did this once before and it did not go well. I think if I continue to do this it will reflect badly on us as an organization, it will generate too much ill will and it will hurt us in the long run.”

  57. Lois Lane*

    I just started a new job three months ago after a long and drawn out interview process (it’s a highly coveted job with great benefits). While I was desperate to leave my former toxic job, the decision to leave was still pretty agonizing because I still loved the job itself. I realized pretty much from Day One that new job is not for me (boss misrepresented the job, among other reasons) and that I miss the field I used to work in. A dream job in that field recently presented itself and I decided to go for it. I recently had a phenomenal interview and based on feedback, I think it will be offered to me. My question is: How much of a jerk am I to leave a job after just three months? And if I do get new job, what’s the best approach to take when putting in my notice to mitigate the jerk move of leaving after just three months?

    1. fposte*

      Ouch. Three months is a tough time, because if you leave after only a week they can probably hire their second choice pretty quick, but three months probably makes it a whole new search.

      I think you grovel. I think you say how genuinely grateful you were for this opportunity at the current workplace and how stunned you are that this dream job turned up at just this horrible time; you also make sure you can work at least the usual notice period and preferably more to aid with the transition. (And you never ask anybody there for references and you leave the job off your resume, and you have to stay for several years at the new place.)

    2. JHS*

      I think, while I generally agree with fposte that three months is a hard time for the business, I think if they thought you weren’t working out they wouldn’t hesitate to fire you after three months. I agree with probably leaving it off your resume and being gracious to the former employer and giving additional notice if possible, but business is business! I also think at least a full year at the new employer is warranted and hopefully many more happy ones, but several years is a long time. It may also be industry dependent. Good luck!

      1. fposte*

        To be clear, I’m not saying you can’t do it; I think you just need to clearly treat it as an unusual thing that you know causes difficulty.

    3. Dawn*

      You’re not a jerk- they misrepresented the job, so they’re the jerks! Good on you for realizing that it just wasn’t working out and seeking something even more awesome. Give 2 weeks as standard, be up-front about why you’re leaving so soon (“I accepted the offer based on what you said about me working on A, B, and C however now that I realize the job is working on R, Q, and W it just wasn’t going to work for me”), and don’t look back!

  58. LizB*

    I’m a few weeks into my new job, and I’m loving it, but it has thrown into sharp relief just how bad I am at delegating/passing over control of things I’ve been working on. I need to get better about trusting my coworkers to take over projects at the end of my shift — they’re all perfectly qualified, they might even have better ideas than I do, and I need to take care of myself and not work so much overtime! It’s hard because we’re a bit short-staffed at the moment, and this isn’t a field where you can always be out the door right at quittin’ time… but I still need to get better about setting boundaries and letting go when it’s time to let go for the day.

  59. Golden Yeti*

    Question: can foreign education be a deterrent for hiring managers?

    I am a dual citizen (official as of about a month ago). Currently, the national economy has been especially hard. I had maybe 4-5 interviews last year (which is the most I’ve ever had), and this year have had 0, so I’m trying to think of anything that could be seen as a hindrance. My education is American, but I’m living elsewhere. And they do have an “educational equivalency” document here that you can apply for, but it costs more than I have at the moment.

    Could my educational background be an issue, and if so, is there any non-weird way to address it with my resume? Or do I have to consider educational equivalency?

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      I think this is really dependent on the culture of the country you’re in. If you’d be willing to say which one it is, or at least the region, you might get more helpful responses. (Though I still won’t know, I’m afraid.)

      1. Golden Yeti*

        That would be Canada. :) So still North American, but I know they have a different type of primary school system here, for instance.

        1. fposte*

          I’ve never heard anybody hiring in the US or Canada who cared about somebody’s primary school system, though. I’m with dancer–if this is a problem, it’s a problem in a specific field. But I’m not convinced it’s a problem–you yourself say that it’s a worse year economically, and you had the same education last year when you got several interviews.

          My thought is that if it is a problem, it’s not the education per se but the cultural divide concern about somebody who reads as more USAn than Canadian.

        2. Stella Maris*

          Canadian here. My only thought was that it might be based on a fear of paperwork but if you’re a dual citizen then it shouldn’t matter… is it clear on your resume that you are eligible to work in Canada?

          1. Golden Yeti*

            It is–in fact, next year I’ll be due to remove my last US job from my resume.

            Most applications that I see also ask you to confirm that you can work for any employer.

          2. dancer*

            Oh, that’s a good point. I didn’t think of that… If it’s an industry that doesn’t have to handle the visa paperwork often, that could be scaring people off.

    2. dancer*

      I think this might be field dependent? In my field, American educational backgrounds are pretty well known and accepted.

  60. No_Registration*

    Should I just be patient?

    I’m wondering what readers think I should do about a potential raise. Background: I’ve been working at my current place of employment for less than a year. At the 4 month mark boss started mentioning that he would like get me a raise. At the 6 month mark a senior team member was struggling to handle a high-visibility, high-difficulty, large volume project which was handed off to me. At the 9 month mark, I am receiving high praises from the project manager who was previously lambasting our department for our failure to help her project. Just last week we had a team meeting discussing the list of project tasks everyone has to complete regularly … and despite being the most junior team member and one of the least paid my list didn’t even fit on 1 page while everyone else on our team had closer to a half page.

    I still haven’t seen a raise. Now my boss is dropping hints that raises are not performance based, and that HR has a strangle hold on raises, etc. I’m worried his prepping me for a pitiful raise. I won’t know what my raise will look like until the end of this year, but I’m starting to lose patience.

    Should I push my boss more firmly for a raise? If he claims HR won’t let him, what should I do/say? Or should I just be patient and wait. I’m really not sure in this situation.

    1. Colette*

      Would you get more money elsewhere? It sounds like you want a raise because your boss mentioned it and you’re doing good work, but it’s possible you’re being paid fairly already, or that they’d love to pay you more but legitimately can’t afford it.

      What’s your alternative to being patient?

      1. No_Registration*

        I’m definitely under paid but not sure it’s worth job searching and mostly I am looking for tips on how to have a raise discussion in this sort of atmosphere. For now I have been patient and quite, but maybe I should directly bring up the raise question? I know for a fact that the senior co-worker who couldn’t handle my client is making about $15K more a year than me for example.

  61. Coffee Ninja*

    Excel help! I have spreadsheets that have ~150 tabs, and my employees have to put a list of names on each tab. Is there an easier way to do it besides copying & pasting on to each sheet?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      So each sheet needs the same list of names? There is a way to do this! I had to do it recently but let me try to figure it out if someone doesn’t beat me to it.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Okay so:

      Select all the tabs (by selecting the first, pressing Ctrl and then selecting the last)
      In the spreadsheet, highlight the cells you want to copy.
      On the “Home” tab, go to Fill > Across Sheets

        1. AMT*

          If you don’t need every tab, use “shift” to select the ones you want. Any changes you make on the highlighted tabs will be made on all selected sheets – so you can format them all the same way at once, or paste the same data to them all, etc. I use this a lot (we have a linked spreadsheet/vlookup system for certain quarterly worksheets – I copy the master spreadsheet, then highlight all tabs and copy+paste special values to hard-code the data on each tab. its wonderful!)

  62. house mouse*

    Update from last week’s thread – Postdoc told me I’m to finally actually get paid for my past three years of weekend work! I should see it as a lump sum either in my next paycheck or the one after that.

    This is obviously quite a relief to me and will give me a little bit of breathing room, monetarily (not that much but I’ll take what I can get.)

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that’s brilliant! I have to say I didn’t have high hopes for an amicable solution here. You must have handled this very well.

      1. house mouse*

        Well, the pessimist in me says to wait until the payment is actually in my account. :)

        I do think reading AAM really helped – Allison has provided example emails when answering questions that have this cheery, diplomatic, yet down-to-business quality that I tried to emulate. Sending emails about this issue, instead of the face to face inquiries I started with, seem to have done the trick. (aka, now I have records of my requests for renumeration.)

        1. Moksha Maginifique*

          Urgh, I have so much troule with that. My emotions immediately go to Scorched Earth in these situations. :/

          Congrats on handling it well!

  63. LuvzALaugh*

    3 weeks into new job and thinking I was sold a bridge at the interview. The reality of the role is turning out to be a big step down in responsibilities and I am worried about the hit to my resume. Do I hang in and try to reshape the position or do I bale?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think part of it depends on what the rest of your résumé looks like and what industry you’re in. Some industries are very forgiving of job-hopping. Others less so. And, regardless of the industry, if your résumé looks like 3 years here, 5 years there, 4 years somewhere else, another 7 years, and then you have a two-month job you’re trying to leave, you won’t look like a job hopper.

      1. A Non*

        At least in the US, it’s customary to leave short-term jobs that didn’t work out off your resume. (If it’s not relevant to the abilities and experience you can bring to your next job, it’s not of interest to a prospective employer.) I wouldn’t worry about it from that perspective.

        I’d probably start job hunting and make the decision to bail if and when a better offer comes along. If there are much better opportunities out there, take them! If there aren’t, well, you’ll find out.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Of course you can leave it off in the future. If you leave it off now, it looks as if you’ve been unemployed the last three weeks. My concern for LuvzALaugh is how it looks to prospective employers now, not to prospective employers years from now.

    2. Aussie Teacher*

      I would talk to your manager asap about the gap between what you were told the job would be and what it’s actually turning out to be. I know I’ve read great scripts on this site for this exact conversation in the past. Then you’ll know whether they’ll either change the requirements to something you’re happy with, or whether it’s time to job search. And most employers would understand a simple explanation in the interview of “Unfortunately the job was advertised as being A, B and C but ended up being mainly D in the day-to-day, which wasn’t what I was hired to do/isn’t where my skills lie” etc.

  64. HeyNonnyNonny*

    How do you deal with all those negative feelings when you see people with bad skills move forward? I just want to go all Hulk Smash when I see errors, and so many of them are from people that get projects or positions instead of me! Argh!

    1. Fish Microwaver*

      You have my sympathy. I just manage to hold in my feelings but I am disengaged and looking to change jobs. My workplace rewards idiots and tantrum throwers and hammers good workers. There are several of us looking for new jobs.

    2. Alison with one L*

      I haven’t personally experienced this, but I have seen my husband experience it. He works for the fed gov’t where this happens all too frequently. As far as how to deal with the negative feelings, I think the best you can do is to make sure that people above you are aware of the trend and the impact it’s having on morale. Otherwise, it may make sense to look for a place that values and rewards actual work output rather than promoting up to get rid of bad employees.

  65. The Cosmic Avenger*

    What is one of the best team-building exercises you’ve done?

    Mine was when we all wrote down something that none of our co-workers knew about us. (We were told to make it something we were willing to share.) Then they were all typed and distributed as a list, and we had to guess which item belonged to which co-worker. That’s when I learned that a coworker who I knew was very smart and technical also had an MFA in painting and had a studio at home, and that sticks with me even though this exercise was many years ago. (And, sadly, said coworker passed away a few years ago.)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      The best team-building experiences I’ve had were doing actual work projects with my co-workers and doing them well together. I’ve found all the supposed “team-building exercises” that don’t involve doing work to be a waste of time. Just my own experience, not speaking for others.

      1. Coffee Ninja*

        I agree. I work in education/mental health, and we love love love our icebreakers and teambuilding exercises, but the most successful ones have been either work projects, or simple happy hours/social events.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Oh, I think there’s no substitute for working together, but some people insist on having these, so I wanted to bring up one that I actually really liked, and see if there were a few good ones that people could suggest as alternatives when the managers pull out the really horrible ones. But then, I already liked and got on with my coworkers, so maybe that’s the only reason this exercise worked.

          1. Coffee Ninja*

            Well, we did do a couple fun ones at an in-house conference a couple months ago. One was called “On the Radio” or something. We broke up into groups and everyone was given a word (for example, “love”) and each group had to sing a song with that word in the title or lyrics. It was rapid fire round robin and if your group couldn’t start a song when it was your turn you were out.

            The other activity was basically dance move telephone/charades – each group lined up facing the same direction, so we were looking at each others’ backs. The first person was given a dance move (our group’s was gagnam style) then they had to tap the next person on the shoulder and perform the dance move (no words). The next person performed their interpretation of the dance move for the next person. The last person in line had to guess what the dance move was. (I’m one of the most self-conscious, introverted people ever, and I thought these were really fun).

            1. Moksha Maginifique*

              Really? I’d walk out before “singing” in front of everyone, and as I walk with a cane due to various severe arthritis/joint issues, I don’t dance. Both of these would have been a big NOPE for me.

    2. AnotherFed*

      We played Cards Against Humanity at a team Thanksgiving party years ago. It was so far into crazy that it was the funny ‘how is this my life’ kind of awkward (how do you get rid of the Pacman card? will Mary even know who Oedipus is?) rather than intrusive or overly personal like talking about ourselves or ear shattering like karaoke.

      Current team has done paintball a few times, and that’s been fun, but it’s obviously got to be totally voluntary – we happily compared welts afterwards, but that’s pretty awful bruising to inflict on someone who didn’t want to be there!

  66. Sunshine Brite*

    Sooooo frustrated. Pulled in as part of a special project at work where I’m helping others. My work is not as well scheduled and planned out as I’m used to. It’s also coming from 4 different people who aren’t talking to each other and rarely to me. I’m ready to pull my hair out. At least I’m almost at max capacity and can tell them all to do it themselves soon because it’s ultimately their responsibility and not mine.

  67. Ally*

    Any tips on how to resign from a toxic job? I’m honestly so afraid to talk to my manager!

    Also any tips for not feeling guilty about resiging? I feel bad for my good coworkers.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Well if it’s really that toxic that you’re afraid to talk to your manager, the only talk you should have is “I’m leaving for another job in two weeks” (with an accompanying email or some other written form saying the same).

      She may blow up at you or make a scene or “fire” you on the spot if she’s a real jerk, but once you’ve secure the other job, you can (hopefully) block out all that noise.

      As for survivor’s guilt, I had a bit of that when I left my last toxic work environment. In the end, after I left, a lot of (not all) my good former co-workers were able to leave as well, so just know that they’re probably trying to get out too and will probably eventually get out. Your staying won’t make the environment less toxic for them.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      This is so terrible… I snuck in at midnight and left my resignation letter on my boss’s desk. I never came back.
      If the job wasn’t THAT toxic, I would have just focused on the idea that the resignation discussion will only take a minute and then it will be over. And remember, you always have the right to leave the room if someone is yelling at you or being toxic.

    3. Vorthys*

      Have an out. If you have personal belongings or information you need to clean off company systems, quietly remove it now so you can be ready to walk if your manager goes nuclear.

      Hopefully it won’t be necessary, but the security of it should lessen anxiety. .

  68. Lillian McGee*

    I am sitting here yet again with barely anything to do! I have gone over processes, cleaned up old files, prepared for my 2 week vacation… I like this job but a lot of it is waiting around for someone to need something or for someone else to get back to me.

    I have hinted to my boss that this job could be part-time, but I am afraid of shooting myself in the foot and losing my (finally decent) salary and benefits, etc. Has this ever happened to anyone else?

    1. Retail Lifer*

      Considering the fact that I’m at work and currently alternating between Ask A Manager and an online course in between customers, I can definitely say yes. My position has been completely eliminated at some of our other locations, or replaced by a full-time lead. I absolutely don’t need to be here for 40 hours a week, but I’m keeping my mouth shut.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It hasn’t happened to me, but I know others it has happened to. With some free time on your hands, you should feel free to do some stuff not directly related to work—e.g., write a novel, teach yourself Python, etc.

      1. Lillian McGee*

        No, not until I identify a few things I could actually take on (as in, I’m capable of doing and wouldn’t be sniping work from other people). It’s a bit complicated!

    4. Amber Rose*

      Yep. One of the first things I did was organize myself out of the bulk of my workload.

      I guess if you’re the type to want to do more, it isn’t ideal, but I kind of like it. My job is super low stress, my work is high quality and I make enough money to get by. It’s comfortable.

    5. Rebecca*

      I’m in the same boat. I have some busy times, but the last few weeks I have had nothing to do. I have caught up on my Feedly and read everything that’s going on in the news.

    6. T3k*

      My job is like this and I can’t stand it. About a month or so ago I actually posted in the open thread about how to ask to switch to part time (haven’t done so yet). Of course, I’m in a different boat where I’m full time but have no benefits, no PTO, and salary is almost insultingly low (actually, remove the “almost”). My plan is to apply around to part time jobs (all who pay more per hour than where I am) and broach the topic with my boss if I get an offer from one of them. And if it came down to her saying no to switching to part-time so I could take on another job? I’d put in my 2 weeks notice.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Well, a lot of people think employers are responsible for supplying a lot of things that make employees’ work lives better or more comfortable, like napkins, coffee, plastic utensils, hand sanitizer, etc, etc. I see no reason why these products would be any different.

      1. Amber Rose*

        That’s a little tricky though. You could extend that argument to say your employer should supply toothpaste, deodorant and shampoo as well. At what point do we say, hey, these are things you’ve needed and known you’ve needed most or all of your life, it’s not your company’s job to babysit you.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, but you don’t shampoo at work and most people bring their own toothpaste or don’t brush after lunch. You don’t stop menstruating just because you’re at work. Though that would h3lla convenient.

          1. F.*

            Most women have certain preferences for the type and brand, so it might be rather difficult to accommodate everyone. I just kept supplies in my desk drawer and would slip one in my pocket as discreetly as possible to go to the restroom. In larger office buildings, I have seen coin-operated dispensing machines located in the restroom that one could use in an emergency.

            1. Amber Rose*

              Slightly off topic but I hate those coin operated machines. They really are emergency use ONLY, due to the sheer awfulness of the product.

            2. Elizabeth West*

              I left a box of pads in the loo at Exjob in case I or anyone else (we only had a few women working there) got caught out. In an emergency, I don’t care what kind it is!

              Nowadays, I keep them in my drawer in my cube. We have a machine too, but nobody carries change anymore.

    2. fposte*

      It came up last Friday and then again midweek. I too was puzzled by the Slate response. I would have been okay if it had been treated as a suggestion (though I don’t think it would have solved this particular problem), but it seemed to consider this a justice issue that I’m just not seeing.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        I wondered if it was related to the recent classifying of sanitary products as sales tax exempt (under the idea that they are mandatory, not luxury goods) taken one step further. I think it’s dumb (after all, food is not optional either, but employers trust you to buy your own that meets your needs) and frankly I think few women would be interested in using generic products that were the equivalent of 1-ply toilet paper or hemp-like paper towels.

        1. fposte*

          That didn’t happen in the US–taxation is still state by state, and some states they’re exempt and others they’re not. But I’m with you on thinking any products they’d provide aren’t ones that I could use. (I could tell my state had gone *really* broke when the office toilet paper became tragically fragile.)

          2. Ad Astra*

            It sounded to me like this woman wanted her employer to pay for the (admittedly expensive) supplies because she saw them as unnecessary. It’s like if my boss came in and said from now on all employees must have a fresh gel manicure at all times. Maintaining that would cost me probably $75/month, so I’d want my employer to help me pay for this new unnecessary preference. (The employer, of course, could still decline to pay for it.) At least, that’s the closest thing to logical thinking I could pull out of this woman’s behavior.

            FWIW, many states don’t tax groceries because they’re a necessity — though, as you say, we don’t expect employers to to supply us with food just because we need it to work.

    3. IndieGir*

      In no way do I think this should be anything the office should be required to supply.

      I think it would be a nice to have in a small office but not really feasible in a large office. I speak from experience — we used to have free supplied at our fitness center and people just stole them. The staff would fill up the basket and come down 15 minutes later to find them all gone. So, no more free supplies at the gym! I should also note this is why we no longer have a Keurig at the office, but some weird new system that only sells to businesses instead. People were lifting entire boxes to take home.

      2. Ad Astra*

        If you’re going to supply these things in the office bathroom, which I think is a nice thing to do, you might have better luck going with the mega cheap-o brands. That way, they come in clutch in an emergency, but they’re not a desirable enough item to horde. If your office is full of cheapskates and/or some employees are struggling to make ends meet on a regular basis, supplying off-brands won’t be a deterrent.

        My office has drawers in the bathroom (you kinda have to know what you’re looking for) with tampons/pads, bobby pins, and a couple of other things. I don’t know how quickly they run out, but this office is also really good about stocking kitchen stuff like paper plates, plastic silverware, even aluminum foil and sandwich baggies, so I guess that just extends the idea of a well-stocked office.

        1. IndieGir*

          That’s what surprised me — they were the gross, uncomfortable, use only-in-an-emergency kind. They were the Pads of Desperation. :-)

          But then, in an office where folks are stealing the frickin’ coffee, what did I expect, right?

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      I agree–it’s not like first aid supplies for medical emergencies. Perhaps it’s different backgrounds, but I thought it was standard operating procedure to have personal emergency stashes of feminine supplies wherever one might need them: purse, car, desk drawer, etc.

      However, blood on furniture–however it got there–is a safety hazard and needs to be addressed.

    5. T3k*

      If the employee was adamant that the co-worker should pay for her pads I’d get cheeky with it and buy her a sample kit of reusable cloth pads. You only pay once and, if you wash them correctly, they can last for 5-7 years :p

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I read some of the original post. Apparently her mother never told her not to leak through like that and for the last 13 years no one else ever told her. Since the OP was the one telling her and no one had ever mentioned it before, then OP could pay for the pads.

      Gosh. I hope her mother told her she would have to buy a car at some point, or else she is going to think that the company must buy her a car, also.

      I think most places have a stash on hand. I have been that good-hearted person who provided an emergency supply at one job. (I could do it at that job, 1 package lasted for months even though there was 15 of us working there.) And I do believe that one package of pads for emergencies is just a good idea. However, I have never seen a company provide a full day’s supply. The idea I have seen has been get through to break time and then run like heck to get to the store.

      The coworker’s logic does not hold up. There are many things that our parents never told us we would need and that does not mean the employer/teacher/whoever is on the hook for providing that thing.

      For whatever reason this is a person who has been very insulated from the world around her. She said she could see that other women did not have these problems but she felt it did not apply to her because she had been living this way for over ten years. Overall, I think that most people look around and try to copy what others in their group are doing. This person is not looking around in such a manner and I think that is concerning.

  70. Jennifer*

    This week’s update: the office queen bee got a promotion and shall be ruling us all. I can’t say this is a shocking surprise, I’m pretty sure she will end up ruling the entire organization eventually. They claim they will be hiring a “temporary” replacement for her, which I kinda doubt.
    In other news, the area of expertise that I originally got hired to work on is being brought back and they said they want to hire three analysts(!) for it. I don’t know whether or not to get hopes up or not. I probably shouldn’t since nobody wants to hire me in this office or get me out of this ill-fitting position I’m in, there is always someone better than me, etc., though.

  71. Blue Swan*

    How do I approach the subject of a considerable raise with my boss without making it seem like I’ll jump ship if I don’t receive it?

    Backstory: I requested a title change earlier in the year to reflect the additional roles and responsibilities I’ve taken on in my three years of employment. I followed Alison’s advice and made the case for the title change with hard proof of my accomplishments. At the time, I thought a change in my title would provide the additional job satisfaction I was looking to find.

    When I was told that I received the title change (Yay!), it was also mentioned to me by my boss’ boss that it was too close to the end of the fiscal year to change my official job description… which (to my surprise) would result in a salary increase more significant than the annual “cost of living” raise.

    Fast forward to a few months later and I’m still not a happy worker bee. I found out my COL raise resulted in an additional $400 this year… which feels like a slap in face for the work I’m doing, being considered a “high performer,” and I *could have* received more money had I only submitted my title change request earlier.

    I have to talk to my boss and his boss about this, but I’ve already decided if I can’t get a significant salary increase, it’s not worth it to stay. How can convey the seriousness of his situation without them saying “Okay, bye.” My boss isn’t a huge advocate for his team, but his boss has repeatedly told me I’m valuable.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I think you would approach it like any other request for a raise. Make a business case for why you deserve one and have a number in mind. I think it would be naive of him if he doesn’t realize you may leave if you don’t get it.

    2. Dawn*

      Don’t make it an ultimatum. Those *never* work out the way you intent. Instead, just be open about it- “Hey, I understand that a change in my official job description would result in a salary increase. Is that correct? If so, when can I expect to see that salary increase based on the fact that my job description has now been changed?”

      If your job description has not been changed, then I think it’s unreasonable of you to expect the salary increase without it- yeah it’s dumb but some companies are really tied up in salaries being directly related to titles and job descriptions so you might have to just jump through their hoops on that one. However if your job description has changed and your salary has not caught up to it it is entirely understandable to sit down with you boss and ask when it will catch up.

    3. CMT*

      Why are you asking how to bring this up without making it seem like a deal breaker if it really is a deal breaker for you? That’s not going to do anybody any good.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You asked for a merit raise and they gave you a COL raise. The two are not the same. Point that out. Ask if that is the best he can do. Say it in a very serious manner, but do not say anything further. If he does not answer you ask again, “Is this the best this company can do?” Listen to the stuttering and stumbling and realize that is your answer. Or conversely, maybe he will come through for you this time. Your best bet is to be very serious, perhaps a little on the formal side. Try to have a tone that says, “I will not be asking this question again.”

  72. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Hi, I just got a verbal offer for a teapot writer contractor 3-yr role. It’s heavy on telecommuting because govt folks are prioritized, but I’m super excited. I’ll be on a writing team doing prestigious stuff. Thing is, my current contract is being shifted onto another vendor meaning I will get more pay, a more prestigious contracting company, and they wanted to talk to me today about 2-3 other cool(er) roles with that vendor. My current job: it’s ok but instead of teapot writing as per job description, it’s task documentation teapot management. I’ve gotten verbal offers from both, awaiting written offer. There’s no guarantee the “another vendor” will win the award so their offer is contingent. The pay will be higher than what I currently make, for both offers. Which one should I go with? (tl;dr: 2 verbal offers, but one of them is 50% likelihood of occurring, equal higher pay, which one?)

    1. misspiggy*

      It sounds like the offer from current job is worse because it’s not the type of work you want, is that right? And that’s the one with only a 50% chance of happening? So would it make sense to take the other one, unless the written offers reveal something else?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You sound really excited about the 3 year role. Which is more meaningful to you? Which one do you think will help your career and help build your future?

      Imagine not getting the first job, then imagine not getting the second job. Which instance leaves you MORE disappointed?

      1. Carmen Sandiego JD*

        Interesting way of looking at it re: which leaves you more disappointed….I don’t know–

        Although–I checked my email, got the offer letter for the 3 yr one, and they gave me a fancy title: Senior Teapot Writer. And I’m still in my 20s. My parents think its just a way to appease me, and maybe they’re right. The pay’s 10% more than what I’m making now (decent but not exceptional pay).

        The other offer? It’s still up in the air, sounds decently prestigious, but I don’t know if it’ll go through or if it’ll even pay much more than the current offer….

        decisions, decisions….

  73. WriterLady*

    I’m wondering about your experience applying to jobs out of state. I have a relatively specific niche – although I’m not super advanced in the field – that I’ll be applying for. But here’s the catch though, I don’t have money and I have bad credit. So moving out of state has some pretty huge obstacles for me (I’m trying to save but it’s been hard. I have two family members out of work and the economy in the state we’re in is AWFUL. So I’m trying to move us out so they can have a better chance somewhere). I guess I’m looking for a story from someone that says, “Yes, I have terrible credit and no money yet I found a job out of state and moved with ease!” He he.

    1. crash bandicoot*

      I have very little money and terrible credit and I start a job in a new state in a few weeks! It was a long process, though, and I had some other things that made it easier: I have family in the new city, and old job and new job had collaborated on several projects so I knew some of the people at new job. I did have to front my own travel for interviews and I didn’t get any relocation help so if you truly have No Money (vs “not very much money”) it’s going to be really, really tough. Obviously that varies depending on the field your in and if relocation is typical but it’s my understanding that the closer to entry level, the less likely it is, bc there’s no incentive for employers to move you when they can find qualified candidates locally.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I have made two out-of-state moves for new jobs, both with terrible credit and very little money. HOWEVER, that was in the news business, where it’s somewhat common (or, in the case of TV news, extremely common) to relocate in order to move up.

      Both jobs provided a very small amount of relocation assistance (I think maybe $1,000 the first time and $1,500 the second time). The first time, a family member helped me put down a deposit on a sublease and bought me a bunch of housewares to get me through until my first paycheck. The second time, I had friends moving out of that city right before I moved into the same city, so I just took over their lease with no deposit. Both times, I moved whatever I could fit in my tiny car and then bought new stuff when I arrived. And both times, I had no real savings: The first time, I was two months out of college and completely broke. The second time, I had my normal paycheck from the previous job plus maybe 4 days of vacation paid out. I slept on an air mattress for six weeks before my then-fiance moved up there with me. He brought a couch and other normal housewares that I lacked, and we used my relocation assistance to buy a new bed.

      So, it wasn’t easy, I had some help, and there was definitely some luck involved. If you really want to move, it’s worth your time to apply to these out-of-state jobs and then see how the details work out when you get an offer.

    3. Not Karen*

      When I first graduated, I had no money (though good credit) and found an employer that paid for my move (and the interview). It’s a huge employer with plenty of money in their pocket so I think that’s what you need to look for – a company that’s big enough it will have the financial resources to move you.

      1. Not Karen*

        Also, they are located in a lesser-known “city” so the pool of local candidates is limited. I think they’re used to having to move people from long distances.

  74. Anon this Friday - not usually*

    Kidney stones, people. That’s what an employee told me was a work related injury this week. “Well, I mean, I guess work didn’t *cause* them, but the ER nurse told me they got knocked loose because of that rough truck I you made me drive all day.” I explained that doesn’t make it work related, but the employee got rude with me and said “unless you’re an MD, you can’t tell me this wasn’t work related, so I’m filing a workers comp claim.”

    Anyone have any advice how else I could have handled it? I contacted our workers comp insurance company, we rolled our eyes together, and I sent him off to the oc med facility where someone with an MD told him exactly what I had, but we were then out a few hundred bucks, unnecessary paperwork, and a fair bit of wasted time for it.

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Not really–it sounded like the employee was going to file the claim regardless, so there was no going around it.

    2. Curious*

      That’s crazy! There’s nothing you can do with those kinds of people, especially if an RN nurse said they were jolted loose.

  75. Schnauz*

    I’m dealing with a coworker situation that is new to me, though not to many who write in. About 6 months ago, a coworker was not working out in her role and my team needed an extra person soon, so she was shunted to us. I never would have guessed it before she started, but she is terrible. She has difficulty learning all parts of the job, no matter how simple, has real issues with retaining knowledge, her pacing is glacial (even daily items that she should naturally pick up speed doing) and has a terrible attitude about it all. If my coworker and I remind her of something, her two main responses are “I know that” (then why aren’t you doing it?) or “You never told me that” (yes, we did, 3 times last week and it’s also in your training documents). She’ll grumble under her breath, but not so quietly we can’t hear her. We have to track her errors for our boss – this is a daily process, there has been no day in the last 6 months that she hasn’t either made a mistake or we haven’t had to remind her of correct processes or the processes themselves (including daily, repetitive tasks). She focuses very closely and has let us know that WE cause her mistakes if we disturb her concentration – but when we don’t “disturb” her (“Jane, you were supposed to run that report by 11, it’s now 12 – do you need help with something?”) then she misses things or tells us that we should have prompted her.

    We found out yesterday that we’re probably never getting rid of her, but I would love some advice on one aspect of this situation. She does not seem able to accurately self-evaluate her work. She is so slow, that tasks that should take 30 minutes, take 2 hours. Yet, when we finally prompt her on something she’s not handled, she will say “Oh, I was going to do that last, when I’m not with X” – she only ever completed X before the end of her shift a handful of times in 6 months, X is a daily task. Or, we have to track and email her with her errors as we find them – a daily task for us – yet, she will say things like “It’s not because I lack confidence, I’m very confident of my skills and ability to do the work.” Uh, why? Everyone makes mistakes, no one but her makes daily, multiple mistakes.

    I have once before mentioned the time management, asking her why she thinks she has time to do things later when she never finishes early enough to do so – or, she’ll want to put it off until the next morning before running another daily task Y. She often runs task Y late, not because of an out of the ordinary work load, just 1 additional task can put her behind because she is so slow in thoughts/actions and still lacks basic understanding of what we do. I don’t want to completely demoralize her, but I also feel like it’s a disservice (to her and us) to allow these types of comments to pass unchallenged. I would really appreciate any polite, direct phrasing for starting a discussion with her that can help us lead her to understand why she doesn’t really have time to put these things off.

    1. Schnauz*

      Sorry, to clarify, when I asked her before why she thought she had time to push a task to the next morning, she just stared at me.

    2. fposte*

      Aughhh. And I’m also aughhing that your manager seems bent on making this your problem and failing to explore ways to get rid of this person. She’s making your team less productive, and getting money for that. Which is ridiculous. (And this is also an example of why I push back when people say “document.” It eats your day up.)

      I’d identify goals. Get her a target error rate; ID her daily priorities and make it clear that it’s unacceptable for her to choose to work on something lower over something higher without authorization, and make failures in that area part of your documentation. If you can, find a carrot–see if your boss will spring for a Starbucks card if she achieves [reachable goal for her] for the month. And her responses are inappropriate in general, not just about time management, but I don’t know if you have the authority to address that; the problem with the time management isn’t what she says but what she doesn’t do.

      But right now you have somebody who does what she pleases and at the speed that she pleases, and I don’t have much hope that this is going to change. You may need to think in terms of minimizing the time you spend on this.

    3. AP No Noir*

      I had an employee like that. What I did was set tangible goals for her (i.e. All TPS reports must be checked within 1 hour of receipt) and then started the write-up process when the goals were not met. When she grumbled under her breath I would say “I’m sorry Janet, I didn’t catch that, do you have a question?”
      It was a long process but she was eventually terminated.

  76. louise*

    Excited for my spouse:

    Husband’s boss asked him to apply for an internal opening. Husband didn’t think he was qualified based on some special requirements he doesn’t have. Boss told him other internal applicants don’t have a shot due to their brashness where softer interpersonal skills are needed and said husband has the right interpersonal skills + experience to make him a strong contender.

    He has to go through the normal application process, so we do not think he’s a shoo-in, but it’s nice to know they at least want to consider him. The published pay on the position is 30% more than he makes now…fingers crossed.

  77. Mockingjay*

    Sitting here wondering why I feel little itches. Dry skin?

    Closer look – the office carpet has FLEAS!!!

    Off to find the Facility manager.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Facility manager thinks they are gnats, not fleas, and they probably came in though open doors. (Warehouse got a delivery today, so the big door was open for a while.) The cubicles will be vacuumed this evening and sprayed.

      He’s a great guy. Works really hard to ensure that we have a clean, safe space to work in.

        1. PontoonPirate*

          If it’s wrong, I don’t want to be right. I’ve also played Survivor: Office Island in my head before … which break room has the best supplies, which department still has logo’d shirts for cover, which bathroom has actual hot water and which person has the best stash of chocolate.

  78. Moosed*

    Etiquette Question: I recently started to use a shared desk in our department. We have our own cubes but share this desk to use specialized equipment. Two coworkers have been using the shared desk for a couple of years before me. I move the equipment to ergonomically fit me, should I move it back when I’m done?

    I believe they both use the same setup, but my thinking is that if it was your personal desk, I would respect your space and move the equipment back.

    2. Alison with one L*

      Is it terribly difficult to ask them? I wonder if one or both of them have just left the items where they originally were, for fear of upsetting one another and they may also prefer a different set-up. If it’s feasbile, just ask.

    3. Ad Astra*

      It would be nice to move it back to where you found it, especially if your set up is significantly different from what you’d think of as “standard” or “default.”

      I would never, ever complain about my coworker moving stuff around on a shared desk, but it might cause me slight annoyance for a few seconds every time I had to re-situate the workstation. The optimal thing to do would be to take a few seconds to prevent that annoyance for the sake of your working relationship, but I don’t think it’s a huge deal either way. If it was my personal desk, I’d feel a bit more strongly about it (and even then, I’d probably get over it).

      You could also just ask. “Hey, Cecil, do you want me to move the mouse/keyboard/joystick/snack bowl back to where it was?”

  79. Persephone Mulberry*

    Kind of a WWYD question…DH got headhunted this week by a company he worked for 7-8 years ago, for a position identical to the one he holds now (he’s at the top of the ladder for his track; “moving up” would mean moving out of his department, which he’s not interested in), and he’s struggling with how seriously to consider this opportunity.

    Pro: the salary they discussed would be a 50% increase on his base (bringing him in line with the market; he is that seriously underpaid right now) and offer a better commission structure
    Con: 50% longer commute (currently 20-30 minutes, new 30-45 minutes)
    Coin flip: his current schedule is typical variable retail; the new schedule would be a set 10a-7p, 5 variable days excluding Sundays. DH is swayed by the no Sundays; I’m focused on the fact that right now he works past dinnertime only 1-2 days a week vs 5.

    WWYD?

    1. Dawn*

      New job, no question. Having that bump in salary will be good in the short term (finances) and with salary negotiation at every job down the road from here. Increased commute time might be a little more stressful, however the change in schedule to allow for getting home for dinner plus no Sundays would more than make up for that stress I think.

      Also, congrats!

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        I think you read my schedule note backwards – DH currently works late 1-2 nights per week and is home by 5 (or is off) the other 5-6 nights. On the new schedule he would work until 7p.m. 5 nights a week.

    2. The IT Manager*

      New job! But how important is the dinner/evening time for you two? Is that the only time you see him? Could you two hang out before work?

      New job sounds better to me, but it sounds like his current variability gives you something valuable – evening time together. That’s worth considering.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        I work typical business hours, so after work is and whatever weekend hours he’s not working is our primary together time. The bigger issue is that we have kids and we try to make dinnertime family time whenever possible. (If it were just me, I’d tell him to take the job and then enjoy my new regular quiet time after work!)

        1. TotesMaGoats*

          You’ve should’ve added that to the con list. I’d say it’s still NewJob but maybe adjusting the family schedule a little. Maybe family time is now breakfast and not dinner. Most important meal of the day and all that. Dad can do or help do drop off to take the pressure off of you. Each of you gets some alone time with the kids that way.

          And think of the opportunities the money would provide. Not in a greedy way but in a opportunities for other things way like higher education or something like that.

        2. Beezus*

          Can you come up with some new meal time/family time norms to replace your current ones? Maybe a game night on the 2 nights you do have together, and/or a family brunch on Sundays? Maybe PJs, popcorn, and a movie after he gets home on Fridays?

          Are there any bonuses to the late morning schedule? In my household, if one of us had a static 10 am start time, we could forego before-school childcare costs, and our mornings would be a lot less rushed. I would kill for that.

    3. Ama*

      Hmm… the new job looks better to me, but I get the hesitation in the longer commute and different hours. As far as the dinnertime thing, if dinner is important family time, is it not possible to move dinner to 8 pm (I totally understand this might not work for you) or making breakfast family time instead?

      But if you think you can manage it even for a few years, I agree with Dawn that the bump in salary will make it a lot easier for him to move to an even better paying job down the road.

      1. TL -*

        Seconding the later dinner time, if your kids are old enough. My family did this – we all grabbed a snack when we got home (we kids all played sports so we were starving anyways) and then we had a later dinner, getting homework and chores done first.

        Plus it helped the kids learn to cook, because sometimes a snack was a banana but sometimes it was grilled cheese or mac’n’cheese or homemade cookies – my mom didn’t care as long as we made it ourselves.

    4. Sunshine Brite*

      New job, no question. I’d probably start doing family breakfast if family meal is the main concern with missing dinner but I’m a morning person. He’s literally gaining a day and can plan better overall. The longer commute isn’t that bad overall.

    5. Brett*

      My wife switched from a public school teacher to a university teacher, and as a result, her schedule flipped from being done at 4 to being done sometime between 8pm and 10pm while I am still 8-4:30. So, we flipped our schedules around. We eat dinner late or I eat a light dinner and we have a late snack. She does housework in the morning and I do housework in the early evening.

    6. Slimy Contractor*

      Where I live, coming home at 7 would be a faster drive than coming home at 5, because rush hour would be almost over. Maybe that would help a bit?

  80. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    I got a job!

    I don’t comment too often but back in May I wrote about quitting my job with nothing lined up to escape a toxic work environment and horrible fit after a promotion to management. I also asked for suggestions of what to do during my time off of work. I mentioned last week that I had gone through an interview with a big company and was hoping something would pan out and it did! I got an awesome offer with great benefits and a salary about 20% over what I was making at my last job.

    I pretty much took the summer off and then in August started working with a mentor who got me some amazing networking opportunities, one of which got me to this job lead. It’s a project management/analyst job with a Fortune 50 company headquartered in my city, Atlanta, and I am so thrilled. I really credit networking with finding the job and Alison’s book with prepping me for the interview. I’m also really excited that I was able to exit the finance world with this job because after working in that industry for seven years, I really felt like I was not happy there. Thanks to everyone who commented and gave me encouragement for following my gut, even though quitting with nothing lined up is very risky. Thank you Alison for providing amazing resources and an amazing community.

  81. Beezus*

    In the recent letter about the letter writer whose “friend” fabricated an entire position on his resume and asked the letter writer to lie about it, the “friend” mentioned that he didn’t want it to look like he had only one employer over 10 years.

    Assuming the candidate can still offer adequate references between former managers and former coworkers, do reasonable hiring managers consider a very long period of employment at a single company to be a drawback? Does it matter whether the entire 10+ year period was in a single role, or a series of roles?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      It matters – if you’re promoted or showing some progression, I don’t think that is viewed as a negative. As far as whether or not 10 years in a single role would be a drawback, I’m not sure because I’m not a HM. But if I were, it would really depend on what your role was and what your accomplishments were.

    2. some1*

      I’m not a hiring manager, but some people who stay in one job/at one employer for a decade can be inflexible and rigid at the new place. I work at an F100 Financial Services company, my counterpart worked at small Christian college for 10 years before our HR dept recruited her on LinkedIn. It’s rare that I talk to her and don’t have to hear about how the way they did things at the college was vastly superior. It gets old.

    3. AnotherFed*

      One employer would not be a big deal to me, but if it were the same job for ten years or three jobs that all had junior/entry level job duties, then I would be concerned. In any of the fields I’ve worked in, 10 years with no significant increase in responsibilities and scale of achievements would be a terrible person to hire.

      However, there are plenty of places where you need the kind of person who is willing to turn the crank and do the same thing every day because there isn’t really room to change it up or increase the responsibilities. My mom’s side of the family is mostly in blue/pink collar work, and they’ve run into that – their options to move up are move into management or start their own business, and most of them have decided they became plumbers/electricians/X profession because they liked it, not to deal with billing, taxes, hiring, or teaching “snot nose kids.”

  82. De Minimis*

    I’m still looking for work—it’s been a very slow month so far, most of the jobs I’ve applied to have been government jobs with close dates late in the month. But I do have an interview next week for a hospital in a town not far from here.
    I’m excited by it, it will be a step up for me and the job may be a bit of a stretch but I can do it. Only downside is the interview is at 5:30 PM! I’ve never had an interview that late before. I guess they don’t want to do the interviews during the normal workday.

    The best thing is that it’s not government, so I’m hoping the interview process will be more straightforward. Really tired of this process where you interview with people who may not necessarily even work in the department that has the vacancy, and usually can’t answer most of your questions about the job. They are just taking down your answers and calculating a score. I also really like that it would be continuing my career in healthcare.

    Had a test yesterday for a city government job, think it went well but I’m pretty sure I’m competing with a lot of other people. The HR person was really open about how their process worked, though, she said they still consider the resume and supplemental questions and the test is just one factor. There still might be a chance at it but I’d probably rather have this hospital job.

    Gotta find something soon—probably if it’s November and I still haven’t found anything I guess I’ll have to start looking out of the area again and maybe returning to my home state for work. At that point though my wife and I will have to just resign ourselves to being apart long term, and trying to decide if that’s something we will be able to do or not.

  83. Lou*

    noooo

    right this customer and his wife and family months ago added me on facebook. i accepted bc it’d be rude not too all my other work mates have them as friends. he starts messaging me and i find it creepy and don’t respond bc why is he just messaging me so a few months down the line after he does it again, i message saying i don’t think its appropriate as they are a customer and i don’t talk with customers on facebook.

    i left that job right and now he messaged again saying ‘now you’ve left that job…can we chat?’

    i’m just going to ignore it. can only lead to bad things.

    1. Vorthys*

      Networking with someone on casual social media sites indicates that you desire to be somehow social with them. When you drew your boundary, you drew the wrong one and I think you’re doing yourself and this individual that may or may not be a creep a disservice in how you’re communicating.

      You might be better served by locking down your Facebook privacy, removing anyone you aren’t actual friends or family of, and leave it at that.

      2. Dawn*

        I’m disagreeing with this. People add contacts on Facebook for plenty of reasons- in this case, it was a social norm at her job to the point that it could have come across weird if she made a big deal of not adding customers.

        Once OP started feeling creeped out by the messages, it’s completely OK to want to re-evaluate the boundaries of wanting to talk to this dude.

        OP I do agree with maybe taking a look at your FB privacy and putting this guy on super lockdown if not just un-friending him altogether. However, I do not feel that you did anything wrong in communicating with this customer and if his behavior was creepy to you then it’s OK to not want to talk with him- you don’t owe anyone your time or effort unless you want to owe them your time or effort.

        1. Lou*

          I’m just going to block and unfriend him I no longer work at that chain coffee shop any more.

          My ex-boss was friends with them before at her previous job. She told me to just ignore him if he starts messaging, because I told her about it before I left.

          They are on restricted anyway. So they can’t see my profile.

    3. Headachey*

      Block him and unfriend him. He’s not a your customer anymore if you’ve left that job. He’s the one being rude and making things uncomfortable, so put that right back on him.

  84. Clara*

    There have been discussions lately in my organization about how we are all overloaded with email. I’m sure this is a common theme at just about every workplace, so I thought I’d throw this question out to you all. What would you consider to be email best practices or proper email etiquette? How would you (in an ideal world) like for email to work in your workplace?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Only cc someone who actually needs to know, and once something goes back and forth more than 3 times, have an in person conversation when possible.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Put a subject line in please.
      Don’t delete the entire thread every time you answer — this seriously bugs me because then if I have to save them, I have to keep ALL the emails instead of just one with a long thread in it.

    3. Ad Astra*

      1. A good subject line goes a long way.
      2. Please don’t call me to tell me that you sent me an email. I can see it.
      3. When in doubt, tell people why you’re CCing them on something.
      4. Be judicious in your use of Reply All.
      5. Always explain what, if any, actions you’d like the recipient to take.

    4. BrownN*

      Make sure it’s appropriate to send an email in the first place. I think some people use email so that they don’t have to deal with people face to face.

    5. AnotherFed*

      Include context and what you want me to do (if anything)! I have a couple of people who think they are so special that I instantly know exactly what project, item, document, or meeting they mean when they put The in front of it to indicate it’s the only one that matters to them. If they’re new hires, I usually tell them I have no idea what they’re talking about a few times before I just ignore the no context emails, but everyone else goes straight to the ‘too hard to figure out’ email pile.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      Email is part of the problem and I think folks have already detailed some really good strategies for being better at that medium.

      But in my experience, one of the biggest “email” challenges wasn’t actually with email, it was with systems. If you’re asking someone to do something that requires a 500-word email to explain, maybe you need to show them live or record a video. If you have to attach 20 documents and six paragraphs of historical context, you need a wiki or an intranet to reference. Good documentation systems and simplified processes go SO far in limiting emails.

      Also, the fewer emails you send, the fewer you get, so CONSOLIDATE!

      1. AnotherFed*

        Disagree on the consolidation of emails – if you have 3 topics you need to email me about, send me three emails with good subject lines and 1 clear topic/ask each, not 1 email with 3 things all mashed together. Multiple questions about the same topic are one thing, but multiple unrelated questions are a pain to deal with and then often make it hard to for me to categorize the email.

  85. Alison with one L*

    I’m preparing presentations summarizing a recent Big Successful Project (yay!) for two separate conferences this fall (double yay!). Any tips for a first time conference presenter?

    A bit of background: I’m super comfortable with the material, because I’ve lived and breathed it for the last 18 months. However, I’m 23, two years out of school, and likely going to be one of the youngest at both conferences, certainly the youngest presenting. I suffer from a bit of imposter syndrome because of my “youth”. Any ideas?

    1. Vorthys*

      If it’s an option, grab a good sized group of your cohorts with conference experience together for a dry run with your first draft materials and ask their advice. Include people not on the project, if you can.

      Otherwise, be pleasant and forthright. Don’t defer to anyone unnecessarily. Age means nothing, and there will be people twice your age with half your experience in whatever your working on.

      Also, in your presentation, use liberal whitespace. Please. God please.

      1. Alison with one L*

        With regards to whitespace – I’m all about not putting too many words on the page, but I struggle with it because I want my slides to stand alone whenever possible. I’ve been to enough conferences to know that sometimes you look up the slides after and can’t even piece together the story someone was trying to tell. I want my slides to serve two purposes: (1) support my presentation at the conference, and (2) serve as a resource to conference attendees weeks/months later.
        Am I off-base here? If not, has anyone figured out the magic formula?

        1. Colette*

          I would disagree that the slides should stand alone, unless you mean the slides and notes. If everything is on the slides, there’s no need for a presentation. Your words should add value.

          1. The IT Manager*

            I agree. Slides should augment your talk not tell the whole story – they will be far too wordy that way.

        2. misspiggy*

          True, but revise and revise those slides so that you’ve told the story in absolutely the most concise way possible. Takes ages but is necessary. Then write yourself a more detailed script, triggered by the points on the slides, and practice it out loud until it fits the time slot.

    2. BrownN*

      I might be wrong on this, but I’ve always admired the presenters who could honestly say they didn’t know the answer to a question, went out of their way to find the answer, and then let people know what the answer was.

      You might not be able to do this while during your actual presentation, but you can tell people perhaps via social media or whatever the conference has available for communicating with participants attending the conference.

    3. Artemesia*

      Deliver the punch line first. What you say in the first 2 minutes is crucial in holding attention so have some way to grab their interest — it can be an anecdote from the project, a startling finding, a common challenge that this project provides the answer to — hook them. Then give them the bottom line and spend the rest of the presentation unpacking this key outcome or finding.

      Conclude with an action oriented summary. These key findings or outcomes or accomplishments will help you solve this problem (or have this implication for future work, or has this implication for practice.)

      I’ll be great. And a dynamite open and close are the things that convince everyone in the room, it is great.

  86. AnonPi*

    I didn’t get either job I was expecting to receive offers for this week. The job at the university, where the director said I was his top choice and the job was mine unless the search committee made a strong case for another candidate, well apparently they made a good case for someone else. Got a blanket form letter email from his assistant Wednesday saying they found someone better qualified. I should have just left work because as I thought if that happened, I was devastated (admittedly still trying to get over it). Instead I just went to my car and cried for an hour and then tried to stick it out the rest of the day, and had to face one of my crappy supervisors who chastised me for not appearing “happy” and not wanting to talk to him about what was wrong. Then got a half hour lecture about not trying hard enough to find another job, how bad it is for everyone else, blah blah blah. (Really, sometimes I think these people just try to push my buttons so I’ll quit, but in actuality they are just that oblivious at what asshats they are).

    Then yesterday got a call back for my ‘backup job’ as a sample tech that everyone and their brother thought was mine (including myself, not being an egotist, but really there was no one better qualified – I’ve worked at the site location, done the exact same job, know the person I’d work for, etc). If anything my worry was they’d say I was overqualified. Instead I was informed they “wanted someone with a lot of sampling experience”. They requested 2-3 years experience, I have 7 years as of this month at my current job (or if you went so far as to compress the amt of time I’ve done sample work, maybe 3-4 years of that out of the 7). So I call BS. Admittedly I wasn’t keen on the job, so I’m not terribly disappointed, other than the fact that I need a new job since this one could end at anytime/get out of current toxic work environment. But I’m flabbergasted at their explanation.

    So between crappy time at work getting stuff done and two job rejections, its been a shitty week. My head is totally not with it, and may just leave early. I can only deal with so much, and I’m trying to avoid my team leader because if she starts on me I’ll probably just break down crying again and/or walk out.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve been going through this with my husband. But each interview he goes on seems to be a better job than the previous interview. I’m hopeful that when he is offered a job, it will be the best one that he ever applied for. Maybe the same thing is happening for you? The best job will be the one that finally come through…you just haven’t found it yet. Stay hopeful, and good luck!

  87. Irked*

    My team leader told me that I should have said something to a caller that I had just said. When I told her I had said that she said ” no you didn’t ” in a really rude way. I could ask for the call to be replayed but is it worth it. This TL recently was promoted and speaks very rudely to the staff. We feel like naughty children not educated professionals. I have tried to speak to her about it but she dismisses it. Any suggestions how to deal with it?

    1. Anie*

      Sounds like you’ve done most of what’s available. If this scenario keeps happening, you could say something like, “I’m sorry, you must have misheard me. Would you like me to replay the call for you to confirm?”

  88. Hedgehog*

    Any tips for supporting coworkers who are having a particularly crappy time at work? About two thirds of the people my office right now are neck-deep in cases in crises and I’m one of the few that isn’t swamped. I’m doing my best to be supportive and/or take up as little of their time as possible (depending on the moment), but I’d like to do more. What have coworkers done that’s been helpful for you when you’ve been overwhelmed at work?

    2. Jillociraptor*

      When I was in your colleagues’ situation, a listening ear (and a place to just vent when something particularly stupid happened) was so valuable. A little empathy goes a really long way.

      Offering specific help if you can is best — anyone in a crisis usually has trouble figuring out what they need. If you see or hear that someone’s doing something that you could do or help with, offer (and also be gracious when they insist that they need to do it themselves — may not be true but it may also be one simple thing they feel like they have a handle on and it helps them get through the day).

      One thing that is super NOT helpful: Harassing them about self-care. I’ve had colleagues who appointed themselves work-life balance police and would aggressively accost people who appeared to be tired or working too long about what they were doing to relax and how they were going to work differently so they weren’t so stressed. Asking someone if they want to grab a cup of coffee or take a quick walk? Helpful. Interrogating someone about what needs to happen so they can get to bed before 1am? Feels like getting blamed for having a lot to handle.

      It’s really kind of you to be thinking about this. Just that level of care will come through for your colleagues, too, and they’ll really appreciate you.

      1. Ad Astra*

        You know, I think you’re on to something. Any time my mom suspects I’m stressed and overwhelmed, she goes into her lecture about self care, and I always wind up feeling worse than I did before. I think it’s that pressure to find work/life balance at a moment when you know it’s not gonna happen. It’s like one more thing you could potentially drop the ball on.

    3. Golden Yeti*

      This wasn’t when I was overwhelmed (well, not more than normal), but the most memorable thing a coworker ever did for me was buy an office coffee maker.

      To explain, we had an individual cup coffee maker that belonged to someone in the company, but let the office use it. That person suddenly took it home one day, so we only had a pot coffee maker. That would be fine, except only 2 people in the office drink coffee (myself and the person who took their machine home). Not really justifiable to make a pot for 2 people who drink 1-2 cups max/day.

      For about a month there, I was drinking tea. Didn’t mind it–I love tea–except it wasn’t quite the same. A coworker who sat adjacent from me saw this every day, and one day came in with a new single cup coffee maker. She said she had noticed that I had been doing without for awhile and she wanted to do something about it. I swear, I hugged her, and I almost cried. Nobody in the office had ever done anything that considerate for me before, and I have no doubt that if she hadn’t gotten that coffee maker, I would still be drinking tea, because nobody else would notice, much less care. She made me feel noticed and appreciated (at least by one person). She’s not here anymore, but the coffee maker is, and I’m so grateful for her generosity in something that seems so simple.

      Obviously, people in your office might not all need a coffee maker (and they aren’t the cheapest). But, if you’ve been observing them and you notice something you could do that would make their day, do it. It could be doing small tasks that they would normally be responsible for (like Sunshine Brite said), it could be a bag of Hershey’s, it could be a funny video/article–the sky is the limit. But it’s awesome that you want to pitch in.

    4. Ad Astra*

      The other replies are full of good advice, especially the parts about offering specific help if you can. Beyond that: Never underestimate the healing power of food, especially for people who are busy and overwhelmed. Just bringing in some donuts or banana bread or whatever could do a lot for your coworkers’ moods.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I was just having a conversation about this very thing. A co-worker– and friend– is totally overwhelmed, and while I can’t do much to help her with logistics, I can be an ear for her. The advice others have given is great, and I’ll second a few things. I make her (well, I suggest STRONGLY) come out with me if/when I go to pick up lunch. I check in with her. I offer to take walks so she can vent. I also send her photos of my doggy.

      I got super pissed when I found out another colleague didn’t follow through on a request for help, and I really wish I could say something to the slacker. What I will do, however, is talk to my friend on Monday and let her know that I heard and I’m livid on her behalf. It all depends on the person and your relationship, but sometimes just providing validation and support (if it’s justified) goes a long way.

    6. NicoleK*

      When my colleagues have been stressed, I step in to take tasks off her plate, lend an ear, and treat her to a cupcake or something. When I was overwhelmed, it meant alot when a colleague told me that she appreciated me.

  89. Fish Microwaver*

    I would ask if there is any routine material you can prepare for them, or filing, shredding etc. Also remind them to take a break or offer to get them a coffee or cold drink. Even just being a kind listening ear can help.

  90. About to Interview*

    I landed an interview and I’m starting to get nervous. I’ve gone through AAM’s interview posts and her interview guide. I’ve prepared answers for AAM common questions and questions people have reported being asked in company interviews. This weekend, I’ll be practicing with the software and printing out my interview materials. I just have a few questions:

    1. How do I format my references sheet? Is it just a sheet with my info at the top and then
    Reference 1: Susie Q
    Relationship: Managed my internship
    Phone Number: 555-555-5555

    2. Is there anything I’m forgetting? I’ll be practicing the interview and playing with the software this weekend, but is there anything else I should be doing?

    1. AnonPi*

      I’ve had a few places that requested email addresses of references because they prefer to send out emails instead of call, so you may want to include that if you have them.

      If you haven’t already, check the outfit you are planning to wear if they’re “interview clothes” that you don’t use regularly – check if shoes/clothes still fit comfortably, look for stains, see if anything needs ironing. Much better to do that in advance than waiting til the night before (learned that from my own experience! Its a PITA running around the night before getting stuff ready!)

      Otherwise it sounds like you’re doing everything you need to get ready – Good luck!

      1. About to Interview*

        Thank you! I have an idea of what I want to wear, so I’ll make sure that my outfit is good to go before Sunday night.

    2. LAI*

      On my reference sheet, I include email addresses so that they have 2 ways to contact them, depending on their preference. I also list their current title and organization (and if their current position is different from what it was when they knew/supervised me, I include their former position in parentheses).

    3. BrownN*

      My reference sheet contains the following:
      person’s name, and their college degree (if relevant, for example, PhD, MD, LICSW);
      person’s job title;
      company name and department person works for;
      person’s email address – check to see which email address they prefer you use;
      person’s phone number(s) – check to see which phone number they prefer to be called on – cell, office, main number, etc;
      fax number.

      I haven’t included their addresses lately because I’m assuming that everybody has already moved into the computer age, even though that’s not necessarily true. I don’t think it would hurt to have it, though

  91. over educated and underemployed*

    Federal employees, I have two USAJobs related questions for you! What does it mean when you get an email stating that you have been rated “eligible” for a position? It doesn’t say whether I was referred or not, so I don’t know if it’s good news (not outright rejected) or bad news (would need to say “highest qualified” to get referred).

    And the other question is – are cover letters important? I have a seasonal federal job right now, and I actually submitted the app on a whim without a cover letter, but I’ve been trying to include them for all of the term and permanent stuff I’m applying for. Is that good practice, or do they get thrown out because they are not requested?

    1. De Minimis*

      Eligible means that you meet the qualifications for the grade of job you’ve applied to. It’s usually a preliminary screening process.
      It’s definitely good news, but it basically means you’ve jumped the first hurdle. What happens next really depends on the agency, the hiring office, and the selecting official. Each one does things an entirely different way. I recently applied to an agency where they didn’t update using USAJobs and just sent e-mails to me letting me know what they were doing.

      You can drive yourself crazy trying to find meaning in the changing status on USAJobs. I’ve been “Referred to the Selecting Official” a few times and ended up being rejected [and not even interviewed.] Other times, I was contacted for interviews and didn’t get the job, one time I did interview and was offered the job, and one other time I was offered the job without even interviewing.

      Cover letters are one of those things where I don’t know if they really are considered, but it’s best to include them. It’s one of those things where it’s better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it….
      I think just about agencies have the option of attaching it, so I always do it.

    2. AnotherFed*

      I’ve never seen a cover letter for a job in my org, but it can’t hurt unless it’s truly terrible. The problem is that most of the posting aren’t very easy to write a cover letter to, because it’s so hard to tell what the actual job is.

      Eligible means just that – the next step should be that it’s forwarded to the hiring manager for selection consideration, or a rejection. I think eligible vs. ineligible tends to show up for jobs where there are a range of grade levels or hiring avenues and you are eligible for one/some but not all.

  92. AP No Noir*

    What is the difference between a manager and a supervisor in your organization? I have a supervisor title but am the head of my department, responsible for hiring, firing, budgets, etc. and was wondering if this is standard.

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      My title is “Director” and that encompasses most of my job. We also have “project managers” who are responsible for overseeing particular projects and then individual supervisors of staff. Staff work on multiple projects so have multiple managers, but ultimately report to their supervisors, who may or may not be the program directors (depending on staff level)

    2. The IT Manager*

      Supervisor supervises people officially – writes their performance reports, handles training etc.

      A manager can manage projects or tasks without formally supervising anyone.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It varies from organization to organization, but most commonly “supervisor” is more limited in scope and “manager” has a broader level of authority. It really does vary in usage though.

      1. skyline*

        That’s how we use it. Our titles basically follow this pattern:

        Lead – Can direct/assign work, but do not formally supervise (hire/fire/write evaluations) staff. Non-exempt.
        Supervisor – Formally supervise, can hire/fire, but limited area of control. Direct reports mostly part-time and non-professional. Non-exempt.
        Manager – Formally supervise, can hire/fire, broader oversight. Positions often require advanced degrees. Direct reports include professional staff with advanced degrees and subordinate supervisors/managers. Exempt.
        Director – Department heads, formally supervise. Wide range of authority, direct reports include managers and managers of managers. Exempt.

    4. Rebecca*

      In OldJob, managers were exempt, salaried and had the hire/fire power. Supervisors reported to managers, were non-exempt, hourly and could help interview and train. I *think* they could write up employees, but I might be remembering that incorrectly.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’m my experience in the UK supervisors are junior to managers and will do more day to day hands on running of the team. Where’s managers are more senior have hiring and firing authority as well as doing performance reviews and that sort of thing.

    6. AnotherFed*

      Where I work, supervisors have authority over people – hiring, firing, raises, performance appraisals, etc. – and delegated release authority for products. Manager is less specific and can mean a supervisor, a project manager, a team lead, or as a 1 person form of Management (mostly as an insult).

  93. AnotherPerson*

    I’m getting really burned out on my job (life!) Going incognito to discuss. I’ve only been in my job 1 yr, but with my company for 10.

    I lost my office this week, due to a department relocation. I haven’t been in a cube in 6 years. Our work from home policy also tightened up. It doesn’t really affect me, but now if you have to be home with a sick kid you can only count working a half day, and you can’t work from home for any other reason.

    This follows 6 months ago when we reorged the dept and added another layer of management. We had a change at the president level at the same time.

    I loved this job for the first 6 months, and I have never loved my job before. Things were very “wild west” and I liked the work I was doing. Now we also have to take on some other things I hate doing, and I’m getting put on projects out of my wheelhouse for the sake of crosstraining, and the projects that are in my wheelhouse are getting micromanaged from the VP level.

    This is a lot of frustration because I felt like this was the last dept where I could do something I enjoyed. My previous role had fallen victim to a lot of the same things – more mgmt, more tasks I didn’t like. I don’t see a good fit for me anywhere else, either, though so I doubt I will make any changes. My son is graduating this year, and we have enough stress figuring out what he will do with his life.

  94. The Cosmic Avenger*

    Eligible doesn’t mean much, because you can be eligible and not be referred. It basically means you’re not disqualified from the position, but you usually have to be rated highly to be referred.

    Cover letters — it probably depends on the agency, or maybe even whoever is screening, but I think a good cover letter can get you noticed somewhat, it’s just less necessary than in the private sector.

    Of course, you may not want to listen to me because I haven’t landed a Federal job (yet).

    1. over educated and underemployed*

      I know it doesn’t mean I was referred, but does it mean I definitely won’t be referred? (This is a job I’m actually quite well-qualified for, but my permanent employee colleagues say that since I didn’t rate myself “expert – have taught others or others consult me” for every question, I may have weeded myself out….)

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Oh, then I don’t know…I recently applied for a job that was listed at two grades, and I recieved two notices, one that I was eligible and referred for the lower grade, and one that I was eligible but not referred for the higher grade. It’s odd that it doesn’t state if you were referred or not.

        Can you check the status online? Maybe it will say more about the status of the opening. Mine actually says “Referred” on USAJobs. An old one I didn’t get also says “Not Selected”, although I think the hiring manager sent me a nice, encouraging denial email long before that showed up.

        1. De Minimis*

          Referred is always good because it means you are at least on a list of candidates that might get an interview.
          But it doesn’t mean you will necessarily be interviewed, and you can be referred and still not get an interview or be selected.

          A lot of the time with the multi-grade jobs someone is eligible based on education for the lower grade, but their experience isn’t quite a match for the higher grade, so they can be referred for the lower grade and not the higher one.

          For me what often happens is I will be eligible but will not be referred.

          I have had some jobs where I never was officially rejected and my status on USAJobs still says “Qualifications under Review” years later.

          No one does things exactly the same way, which is why it’s so frustrating.

          1. over educated and underemployed*

            Thanks. I know it doesn’t mean I’m in, but it’s good news that it doesn’t mean I’m out…yet. This was not a multi-grade job, and didn’t say anything about referral one way or the other, so I guess I’ll just sit back and wait some more.

      2. De Minimis*

        Eligible just means you meet the standards for the grade of job. It’s the first screening process, they check to see if applicants can show they have the educational or professional background necessary. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether someone is referred or not, but you do have to be eligible to be referred. They are basically weeding out people who say they have a degree but didn’t attach transcripts, or people who say they have experience but don’t really have any way to back it up [happens more when people are claiming prior federal experience but didn’t attach any paperwork.]

        Basically it’s the first step. Then they look at all the eligible candidates and see which ones they want to interview.

        From personal experience, I can say you don’t have to rate yourself “expert” on everything to be selected.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Ah, yes, I also meant to address the ratings. I’ve also been told that, since I feel like an immodest braggart if I say I’m really good at something, that I should always use the most generous interpretation, as long as I can back it up if asked about it in an interview. Yes, I really do have coworkers who turn to me for guidance about these things, so by their standards I am definitely an expert!

  95. Manders*

    I’ve been struggling with this question for a while and I thought that folks here might have some advice for me: What do you do when you’re in an entry-level job and it’s time to make the move to the next level, but you don’t know what you want to do?

    Right now, I’m the jack of all trades and master of none in a very small office with no room for advancement. I handle my boss’s schedule, I answer the phones, I copyedit reports, I fix computers when they do something strange-but-not-quite-calling-IT-worthy, I make all the files my boss takes to legal events, and I’m the first line of contact for clients. This job has taught me a lot about what I wish my day-to-day work would look like, but I have no idea how to make the jump to a place where I’d be:
    – Working on longer projects instead of putting out fires and doing the same administrative tasks every day
    – Getting regular feedback from a boss who’s checking my work, instead of just expecting me to make sure everything runs smoothly
    – Able to focus without constantly being interrupted by the phone, since I’m functionally the receptionist
    – Able to have a decent work-life balance (some overtime is OK, but constant 45+ hour weeks would not be good for me)
    – Able to make a living wage in my very expensive city without spending too much time on unpaid or minimum wage internships

    My parents both had non-traditional career paths, so the advice that they’re giving me is not helping. I’ve tried setting up some informational interviews and talking with friends in fields I’d like to jump into, but I keep finding out that either 1) I’m not qualified for a career path I thought I’d be a good fit for without going back to school for more certifications or 2) My friend just wants to complain about their job, not give me advice on how to break into their field.

    My boss doesn’t give me any feedback on my work, but I think I’m at least ok at what I do, since even a small mistake would cause some VERY serious issues in the office. How do I figure out what I’m actually qualified to do? It’s getting discouraging!

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      What parts of the job do you think you excel at the most? What parts of the job do you like the most?

      1. Manders*

        My favorite parts are 1) copyediting and 2) doing research and writing reports on that research (on the rare occasions that I get to do it). I think those are my strongest skills, although it’s hard to tell for certain, since I don’t get any feedback on my work.

        My least favorite parts are scheduling and reception duties.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          I would focus on those skills in your resume and cover letter and apply to jobs like that and see where it gets you. It may not work now, but that’s what I did back in 2004 to move up and get a job that was more focused on things I liked.

          1. Manders*

            I’ve been doing that, but I’m still not sure which jobs to apply for. There don’t seem to be a lot of positions for copy editors in my area and I have no idea what kind of job someone who likes to research and write reports would have.

              1. Bluebell*

                Yes, prospect research in a larger development office is what I was thinking. Also, in medium size offices the prospect research might be combined with another function
                so you could pick up other skills.

        2. Jennifer*

          Sounds like me, both in what you’re good at and what you hate.
          I really can’t say I can find any jobs these days that aren’t first point of contact, unfortunately. The only “research” jobs I see are for scientists. Maybe that doesn’t exist any more.

      2. Manders*

        Oh, I should add: I did enjoy marketing when I got to do that, but there’s no need for it now since one of the companies I contacted turned into our biggest client and pretty much flooded us with work. I don’t know if I did a good job or if I just got lucky first time out of the gate.

    2. k cat*

      It’s hard for me to advise since my career path has mostly been an accident, but I had a position like yours once and basically read job search sites like crazy, saving all the jobs that sounded interesting to me and researching what they might pay if the ad didn’t state it. Then, I worked on taking on more responsibility on tasks that matched what was in those job ads. That sort of worked, but I ended up going in an unexpected direction.

      Also, ask for feedback point blank!

      1. Manders*

        Unfortunately, I don’t really have any opportunities to take on more responsibilities. I’ve been asking for new tasks for years, but the company is a small family-run one (and I’m not part of the family), so the boss’s kids always get first dibs on the assignments I want.

        My boss is a busy surgeon and genuinely has no idea how to give feedback. I just make files appear on his desk/in the computer system, and he only notices if something’s wrong. I guess no feedback is good feedback coming from him?

        1. k cat*

          Aw, that’s too bad. It’s a lot easier to think objectively about strengths when one has at least some feedback to base it off of. Maybe there is someone else in the office you could trust to give some candid feedback?

          Family businesses can be the worst. All the norms go out the window.

        2. k cat*

          Oh, and I’ll add to Ama’s advice below – if you can’t get the experience to match the job ads in your current job, look for small side jobs/volunteer positions to help strengthen your resume. A few small things can really help you stand out!

        3. Artemesia*

          Then you need to think about your skills/interests and start looking for a job where you can use those and more importantly grow the skills. My daughter did that and is now the #2 person in the small business she works for and still developing management and business development skills to prepare for the next move. A family business is the worst as you have discovered.

    3. Ama*

      I’ve been in a very similar position to where you were and what helped me was browsing a very broad range of job descriptions on posting sites (I used Idealist because the one thing I did know was that I wanted to be in nonprofit, but you could do this in the for profit sector as well). The first time I did this, I realized that the jobs I really wanted I wasn’t really qualified for (they wanted more desktop publishing and better writing samples than I had at the time) so I spent the next couple of years trying to get as much work experience as possible in those areas. This included sticking out an extra year in a pretty dysfunctional workplace because I had been able to take on projects in the exact area I needed experience. (I’ll admit this won’t work for everyone, you might need to move to a job that’s still some receptionist work but offers more possibility of taking on the projects you want.)

      The second time I went to look for jobs, I was able to be picky (I also wanted out of receptionist work, so anything that referred to working the front desk or answering phones went in the no pile immediately). As it happened I stumbled onto a job that was 50% writing/desktop publishing and 50% admin (program admin, though, not reception) — they were delighted to find someone with my particular background and I was delighted to accept their offer.

    4. Golden Yeti*

      Wow, are you me? Because we sound almost exactly alike, right down to the family history, work setting, responsibilities and interests…

      I don’t really have any advice, unfortunately (I’m in the same boat as you). I would suggest considering placement agencies, though. They have a lot of connections and might have extra leverage with your resume (especially once they know what type of work interests you) that you wouldn’t have on your own. I’ve avoided them for years, but after learning that they can hire permanent, I’m giving them another shot.

      I’ll be interested to see what additional advice others have, too. Keep us posted!

  96. Ash (the other one)*

    Going out on Maternity Leave question —

    I am a fairly new manager of a small team and I am the principal investigator (researcher) on a number of projects. I’m trying to set everything up to make sure my transition to leave goes smoothly (will be leaving the end of October), but I am incredibly Type A and nervous I won’t be able to let go. What are your tips — either having gone on Mat Leave or having been part of a team where a manager has left on Mat Leave?

    1. AP No Noir*

      Post-Its! I put a post-it on almost every piece of paper on my desk explaining where I was at with it, then subdivided those papers into folders with more notes on the file jacket. I started my leave the day my baby was born so honestly all of my focus was on him once I was gone, I didn’t have any problem letting go.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      I’d suggest having one-on-one with the people who will be picking up the slack while you are out and asking them what they think they would need to know to do your job. You write down everything you think off and then they add to it. That might help. I know it did me. I didn’t think of things like explaining why our relationship with one group was a certain way and what we did for them vs another group. Someone who doesn’t deal with them on a daily basis but knows about them might ask a question that will trigger that information. Document, document and document some more and then have a good higher up as back up. And then remember that the world will not fall apart while you are away and most people understand that mat leave means things can get alittle messy.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Well, I think the reality is that you can’t both go on a long leave and keep control of what is going on at the office. It just won’t work. I suspect that once your baby comes, you’ll be much less focused on work and be happy to think about it less for a while. It might be helpful to work on accepting that (a) you can’t 100% direct what will happen when you are gone – whoever is doing it will do things at least somewhat differently than you would and (b) when you come back – no matter what – you will find that some things were done differently than you would have done them. If it were me, it would help me to realize that the worrying is futile.

    4. Thinking out loud*

      I kept a spreadsheet of all my major projects and the status of them. I updated with any changes each evening when I left, and I usually had a tag-up with the coworker I was closest with/shared a lot of projects with each week to discuss major status.

      I also had an out of office message written and I used the “during these dates” option. I had it set to kick in a day or two in the future, and when i came in each morning, I would move it guard another day. That way, when I didn’t show up to work for a couple of days, I didn’t have to go through the somewhat lengthy process of logging onto my company account – outlook just set my out of office for me.

  97. Not Again*

    This week I noticed my teammate and my boss whispering to each other and disappearing for unscheduled chats. I’ve worked in a team before where the boss was friends with a direct report and it’s crappy. I’ve been really enjoying my job up to this point too. This situation is almost an exact duplicate of that one down to team size and relative lengths of service. Does anyone have any tips on how to survive in this sort of team? Last time I came close to meltdown before quitting.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I’m no fan of whispering, but I do this it’s worthwhile to examine whether this is actually the same situation you were in before, or if you may be super-imposing the facts from the past situation onto this one. It’s pretty normal to have a bad experience and then be aware of similar happenings in the future – but it’s also possible that you will be pleasantly surprised.

    2. fposte*

      Has it had any impact in how your work is treated? I would shove it off to the side of my brain if it doesn’t.

    3. AnotherFed*

      There are plenty of valid reasons that they could have needed to talk that weren’t scheduled – until you have evidence that this is situation like your previous job, don’t assume it is. If you were happy with the job up to now, stressing yourself out about conversations like this seems premature, and if you take drastic action or even start to treat these people differently, then you’re making a big jump based on very little evidence. You could just as easily end up feeling (and coming across to coworkers) unprofessional and paranoid if it’s something like a medical issue or pregnancy, a confidential investigation or contract action, a company reorganization, or a disability accommodation – none of which would have been any of your business until/unless it was officially announced.

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      I liked the ones more specific to my particular area (DC). I felt I found a lot more on those than the jumbo aggregate sites.

    2. AnonPi*

      Those are my main two also, but if I had to add a third I’d go with Glassdoor (actually I have some auto emails set up to send me a notice once a week for new jobs). Its kinda nice to have the job posting, and you can go right to the info about the company, reviews, etc.

      1. De Minimis*

        Indeed, sometimes Craigslist. USAJobs for federal stuff.

        There’s a site now called GovernmentJobs that is like a USAJobs for county/municipal job listings. It’s very easy to use and I’ve gotten a lot of interviews through it.

    3. Retail Lifer*

      Zip Recruiter. It’s all one-click apply. When you’ve applied to as many jobs as I have and haven’t heard back, the option to just click “apply now” and not have to fill out yet another application and create yet another cover letter is a relief. If you’re going to reject me, and least don’t make me have to put in all that effort first!

      Seriously, though, out of all of the email alerts that I have set up, the ones from Zip Recruiter and Glassdoor are the usually most relevant based on my skills and experience.

      1. Dana*

        Do they not require a cover letter then? I’m not sure how that would be one-click unless it’s uploading documents with one click.

        1. love zip recruiter!*

          I never tried Zip Recruiter until my most recent job search, and one night I went a little crazy and just started one-clicking away (resume only, you’re right I think a cover letter is a second click) and applied to around 25 jobs. It does warn you that most people that don’t send a cover letter get over looked by others but I was just tired and unemployed and wanted to find something quickly. I heard back from nobody for a few days and was feeling a little down haha but not surprised since I didn’t try very hard. Well I got a call back from one person, set up an interview and I’m now working for them! I was told they chose me and 3 other people as the ones they wanted to interview out of around 150 so I’m glad they didn’t care about my not having a cover letter, although I’m sure most might care.

    4. over educated and underemployed*

      I use Idealist.org a lot, usajobs.gov, a site for cultural sector jobs in my state, a site for regional jobs in the most relevant type of nonprofit org (narrow enough that I haven’t found any to apply to in a month, which is why my search is wider), and the individual sites for three major universities near me. Looking forward to checking out GovernmentJobs now too, thanks De Minimis.

  99. TotesMaGoats*

    Little brag. It’s been a good couple of weeks at NewJob. Had my first half sick day because of a stomach bug. Everyone was really concerned about how death-like I looked and made me emailed when I’d gotten safely home. (I was that worried about driving. I shouldn’t have even gone it but I thought moving around would help.) With the application season being open for about a month and a half, we’ve already gotten in almost as many applications as we did for all of Spring 2015. So, I guess you could say I’m doing my job pretty damn well. Getting lots of kudos and “thank god you are here” type of things. So affirming. The commute still sucks majorly but I’m giving it a few more months of trust building before asking to change my hours a bit.

    Had an interesting email from the property management guy at OldJob. They lease the building they occupy. I know it’s because next year is the end of the first 10 year lease cycle and it’s up for a 5 year renewal. I know they’ll renew it but I bet he’s getting the run around from former boss. I’m happy to let him pick my brain for the name of boss’s boss. *smirk

  100. Franco American*

    Alison says follow up only 1 time after a resume is submitted, but are the rules different when going for a B2B sales job?

    2. Dasha*

      I would think it’s the same but maybe you need a “stronger” follow up? Somehow let your sales personality shine without being overbearing.

  101. k cat*

    I’m going through my first hire and am surprised at how emotionally draining it is. How do people deal with rejecting great candidates? I’m glad in my case it won’t come up very often.

    Also I’ve had to avoid social media because one person has started having mutual contacts put in a word for her, and our HR rules say I can’t tell her she’s not moving forward or why till the search process is through. I’m planning on sending an email after.

    1. fposte*

      I haaaate it. And because of small community/university stuff I’m often in situations with them later, so I really want to do it as nicely as possible.

      That being said, I love hiring. I just hate rejecting people.

      1. k cat*

        I’m excited by our prospects but just can’t wait for the process to be over. In the middle of calling references now and no one is getting back to us. Bah!

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      From the other side of the coin, although of course I was a bit disappointed, I felt pretty good about getting this nice and encouraging rejection letter, so maybe this will help:

      Thanks so much for meeting with us about our Teapot Specialist position. Although we have narrowed our search down to other candidates, I did want to compliment you on your impressive background and skills.

      We enjoyed speaking with you. Best of luck to you,

      Margaery Tyrell

      2. k cat*

        That is great! I’m struggling with how much info to provide. I work at a university, so I really want to advise on how to apply to a place which will likely be using a search committee (basically, make sure every required thing in the job ad is mentioned almost word for word in your cover letter or resume, which is awkward but supremely helpful). We also literally can’t consider candidates who don’t meet the minimum reqs if we have others who do, which was a bummer because one candidate was awesome on paper but didn’t meet the minimum reqs.

        I should probably default to something short and sweet like the above, perhaps with a link to advice someone else has written on the topc (since I’m sure I got my university applying advice from the web somewhere).

        1. LAI*

          I agree that the sample provided above was pretty good. One sentence that is personalized about why you liked them will go a long way because it shows the candidate that you took the time to think about it. If you are really serious about wanting to help them with future advice, you can also add a line essentially saying that they were welcome to contact you for feedback.

    3. Ama*

      I don’t hire, but I manage a grant program, and sending the “sorry, we can’t fund you” letters is the *worst.* Last year I had to send a no letter for the third year in a row to an applicant who I’ve gotten to know pretty well through other programs my org runs — if we’d been able to fund one more proposal he would have gotten it, but I’m not allowed to tell him that. I just felt so bad, even though I’m just the program manager and have absolutely no say in what gets funded.

      1. k cat*

        Oh that would be hard too. I used to write tons of small grant apps and it was hard getting rejections – but it helped to know there were tons of people applying for even the smallest grants.

    4. Lillian McGee*

      The. Worst. We hired recently and I was really pushing for one candidate who had previously interned for me. She was such a good worker and so sweet and I liked her so much! But I had just left the department we were hiring for, so I did not get final say and we hired someone else. But guess who had to make the rejection call!!! :(

    5. Colette*

      I’ve never been the final decision maker for hiring, but I have been involved in interviewing. The ones I found the hardest were the people who were good (but not great), likeable, and who the job would probably be really good for. I.e. Solid candidates, but not the strongest candidates. They’d do a perfectly fine job, but others were better.

  102. Mike C.*

    I have a question about continuing education.

    So I graduated from a really tough science/engineering school on the low end of the GPA scale and years later things are working out pretty awesome for me. I currently work somewhere that does tuition reimbursement for additional college degrees and certificate programs, and I feel like I want to take advantage of that. These directly apply to the work I do, so it’s not just a lark.

    So here’s my question: given that the GPA was around 2.2 but I’m paying my way and I’ve had nearly a decade to deal with those issues, how is the best way to get back in? I know things would be tough with that GPA for a masters/PhD type program, but would I face the same challenges with certificate programs? Furthermore, if I start doing those certificate programs, can I leverage successes there to bolster a future application for a more serious degree?

    If it matters, I’m looking into data analysis/statistics type programs. Thanks!

    1. SRB*

      Colorado State U has a good applied statistics program – it’s online too. I’d recommend it based on my experience.

      I too had a mediocre GPA (I think 3.1-3.2? Funny how that stops mattering so quickly) at a tough school in a somewhat unrelated degree (economics) and a few years of work experience. I can’t say it’s true of all schools, but I think the work experience helped me there. If nothing else, most certificate classes can count towards your degree (as long as you don’t complete *too* many of them before officially registering for the degree), and could help your chances of getting accepted to the degree program. Worst case, you get a certificate.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I can’t speak you your GPA situation, but my experience has been that it’s fairly easy to get into the graduate distance programs that are geared for working adults. I was in the Missouri S&T graduate mech eng certificate program, and it was just a matter of sending an unofficial transcript & why I wanted to start the program to apply. If you’re successful in the certificate program, you could roll into the regular masters program. . . and PhD (not distance) if you wanted to.

      I also applied to another university’s distance applied statistics program, which was the full master’s program, and it was similarly accepting. I didn’t even have all the prereqs for that program, but they would have you attend a pre-course over summer.

      Now, if you’re looking for a program with some weight behind the name, that could be different, but for the programs I was looking at, I felt wanted they wanted to max out their distance enrollment. As long as you weren’t completely doomed to fail, you’re in.

      I ended up doing only 1 class in the ME program and didn’t do the statistics program. I wish I had, now, but that’s a whole different discussion.

    3. fposte*

      Are you looking at online or brick and mortar, and if the latter, what area of the country? (Just in case it helps people find suggestions.)

      I think a lot of this is program by program/school by school. I know our program (information science isn’t that far from data analysis so I don’t think it’s a crazy comparison) is competitive but not that focused on GPA. You have to take the GRE if your GPA was below a certain level, but we don’t have an official GRE score we require there–it just becomes part of the conversation. (I’m describing the masters there, though–a PhD application is a much tougher target.)

      1. Mike C.*

        I’m mostly looking at distance learning, but I wouldn’t mind brick and mortar so long as it’s local to the Seattle area or short term (say, travel out for a week of hands on learning courses). The University of Washington has a lot of interesting online certificate programs, and an online Masters in Applies Mathematics program that looks like fun.

    4. Audiophile*

      As someone who graduated with less than a 3.0, you can definitely still get into a decent program. In my case, I was considering computer science programs. In both cases, I had to talk to the department chairs and explain my GPA. I was admitted to the programs I applied to. It’s definitely doable.

        1. Audiophile*

          I was certainly worried about it, given that every college/university asks for a 3.0 (even some job applications ask for a 3.0) but I figured I was far enough removed from my college years and had enough life experience under my belt, that it wouldn’t matter as much.

    5. CollegeAdmin*

      I’ve been getting my master’s in data analytics (one semester to go!) online through Southern New Hampshire University, if you’re looking for another potential school. And I believe SNHU values your job experience more than your undergrad GPA for admission, particularly if it was several years ago.

      1. Audiophile*

        How do you like it? I’ve been looking for online schools (works hours are weird – 12pm-8pm) and so I wouldn’t be able to attend a day or evening course. I definitely think I have to go back to school at this point, as job opportunities seem to be hard to come by in my undergrad focus.

        1. CollegeAdmin*

          It’s great, honestly. I work full-time and have a hellish commute, but I’m able to flex around all that to get my work done. Plus, SNHU is very forgiving about schedules, since they cater to working professionals and people with families. I had a family emergency to deal with near the end of a semester and was stressing out; my adviser noticed and helped me arrange a 30 day extension for all my work with my professors. I’d highly recommend them!

    6. Anne S*

      One option might be to pursue some classes as a non-enrolled student in the grad program you’re interested in so when you officially apply you can point to your recent record being stronger.

    7. AnotherFed*

      When I went back for my masters (second engineering degree), I picked a program specifically geared for working adults. Primarily because I still had to work and needed profs who would understand school sometimes taking a backseat to staying employed and handling family issues. The unexpected benefit was that they didn’t care much about undergrad anymore. They did have some mandatory mostly-remedial math classes, but they didn’t even make us take GREs, and I think the entrance application strongly weighted why you were interested in the program and whether your supervisor recommended you for the program or not (but that part might have been because the government paid for my program).

    8. Stephanie*

      Sort of in a similar boat. I’ve looked into this. The advice I’ve gotten:
      1. Do really, really well on the GRE.
      2. It’s been some time since your undergrad, so I’d imagine your GPA would matter a bit less, especially with a lot of relevant work experience.
      3. Write a very focused personal statement.
      4. More “professional” masters will care a bit less versus a PhD. Some just care if you can pay.

  103. 150%*

    Several months ago I began dabbling in the job market and sent out resumes only to jobs I thought were the best fit for me. I did this at a certain time during the year thinking that if I left my current job, it would have the least amount of negative impact on my current employer as opposed to leaving when things get really busy. I went on a few interviews but heard nothing back until today, 3 months after I interviewed!! I received an offer and they want me to start in 2 weeks. This is a great opportunity, but I cannot leave my job as-is in 2 weeks. We are back in crazy mode and I run a coalition of outside partners where we meet monthly, and our last meeting was 2 days ago. I can’t just pick up and leave abruptly without burning bridges in my industry and with my boss. What to do?

    1. fposte*

      Then when can you leave? Propose that date to the new job.

      But I also think you might be overinvesting in the old job here. You can leave during crazy mode if you have to, and having met with people 2 days ago has nothing to do with taking another job. Would a four-week notice get you through the crazy time? Because if it doesn’t, your choices may be leave during it or pass on the job offer.

    2. De Minimis*

      I would push back and see if they could have you start later, and explain why. If not, I would probably risk burning the bridge if the opportunity was good enough. Some might also have the view that if the new job isn’t willing for you to try and make a professional exit with your old job, then it may not be the right place to go. That may be true, but I also think if old job is set up to where everything falls apart if one person leaves, they may not be the right place to stay–there will never be a right time for you to leave.

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      Push back.

      I did that with my current job – they wanted me to start in a month (standard for UK) and I said 6 weeks – I had to relocate.

      I’d just explain that due to the timeline of the hire, you’re now in a busy period at your current job and need 4 weeks to tie up loose ends and do a handover. Worst they could say is no, right?

    4. k cat*

      I recently found out that our HR was pressuring people to give short notices when my department absolutely didn’t care if the notice was a little longer. I don’t know that that’s the case here, but try to get in touch with the manager to be if need be if you are stuck in HR hell.

  104. A Non*

    I’m reviewing a stack of resumes, which is a new experience for me. It’s actually pretty fun! There’s a lot of AAM’s advice that I knew was good, but now I really see why it’s good.

    – Don’t tell me you’re a hard worker with good attention to detail. I know plenty of people who weren’t, but thought they were, or would at least write it on a resume – I have no idea if you are among them. Tell me about things you’ve done instead.

    – There are a lot of lists of “things I was responsible for”. Okay, so you were responsible for teapot handle attachment. That covers an incredibly wide range of ground. Was this a task that you did a few times a week? Were you following someone else’s instructions to stick a handle on? Were you writing the instructions? Were you custom-designing attachments? Were these simple teapots or complex ones? If you’re just listing off your previous job description, all I know is that someone once hired you to do a job with that description. If you tell me how you optimized the teapot handle attachment process, or that you troubleshot difficult attachments, or that it was a highly custom teapot manufacturer and every handle was different, now I have some idea of what you’re capable of doing.

    – For pete’s sake, if you have a five page resume full of jobs going back to entry level jobs in the 90s, trim that crap down. I’m really only interested in your last 3-4 jobs, unless there are unusual circumstances. There were several of these in a stack of about 50 resumes.

    – The functional/skills style resume really is horrible. I can get all that information from reading the description of your previous jobs. Especially if half of your list is subjective stuff like ‘pays attention to detail’, I gloss right over it, because that stuff has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Descriptions of what you’ve actually been doing will convey the same information 100x better.

    – If you’re over qualified for the job, please tell me in the cover letter why you’re interested in this one. Otherwise I’m going to assume you’re spamming your resume and didn’t read this job description carefully, and you go in the ‘no’ pile. (This goes triple if you’re a former manager applying to a non-management role.)

    – Tell me why you’re interested in this particular job! I work for a social services non-profit, it should not be hard to say that you want to support XYZ thing that we do. But the cover letters are so generic, I’m not sure if 90% of these people are even aware that they’re applying to a non-profit. Cover letters that have been customized really jump out at me.

    It’s really amazing to me how little information I’m getting about people from reading their resumes. I thought my resume gave employers a fairly good idea of what I can do – nope, not even close. Most of these, all I can really see is that they worked in this industry and at approximately what level.

    I’d encourage everyone who hasn’t had this experience to try to get it. Ask your boss or HR if there’s a stack of resumes from a previous hiring – maybe yours? – that you can look through. You’ll learn lots about how to make your resume actually be informative and useful.

    1. Dana*

      This REALLY hit home to me in a conversation with some co-workers the other day. Person A mentioned tangentially that he was president of his dorm at State U. I asked him what that meant because I never lived in a dorm and had no idea there were such things as dorm politics. I figured he was a fancy RA, which I’ve heard of. Person A then told me that it was pretty much just a title that would look good on a resume. And that he wasn’t involved in the “government” until his senior year when a graduating senior told him he should take their place. And he didn’t do anything except monitor what the treasurer was doing with the money they were allocated that year, and told them not to buy an arcade game with it.

      So, in a super short conversation this whole “show don’t tell” thing because excruciatingly clear to me. “Served as president of State U dorm” is the same bullet point on his resume as the person who did [insert actually meaningful work] while they were president of their own dorm, but for Person A it means literally nothing.

      IT CLICKED!

    2. Althea*

      Hahah, yeah especially if you have to recruit interns. SO MANY applications that arrive within 2 hours of the posting, applying to “your corporation” (I work in a non-profit). Straight into the trash.

      If I ever give advice on applications, I say this:

      – write down the attribute they ask for (“with strong attention to detail”)
      -now update the sentence to read ‘I demonstrate X by doing…’ (I demonstrated my attention to detail by doing X)
      -now fill in X (I demonstrated my attention to detail by entering 400 transactions per day with a .3% error rate)
      -then drop the first part if it sounds hokey, and place the remaining sentence or phrase in your resume or cover letter

      Sometimes I want to give the applicants feedback, but it’s generally not appropriate… I hope they learn from somewhere.

      1. Aussie Teacher*

        Oh I love this advice – great way to list the attributes asked for in a “show don’t tell” way.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      Yessss I am nonprofit too and finding applicants that are actually interested in THIS position vs. ANY position is like pulling teeth!

    4. Jennifer*

      “If you’re over qualified for the job, please tell me in the cover letter why you’re interested in this one. Otherwise I’m going to assume you’re spamming your resume and didn’t read this job description carefully, and you go in the ‘no’ pile. (This goes triple if you’re a former manager applying to a non-management role.)”

      Uh, these days with people being out of work for so long, maybe those people can’t (literally) afford to be picky. Sorry, but this one kinda ticks me off because a lot of people can’t GET better jobs or ones they are super qualified/suited for, so they may need to go back down the career ladder. It happens.

      “– Tell me why you’re interested in this particular job! I work for a social services non-profit, it should not be hard to say that you want to support XYZ thing that we do. But the cover letters are so generic, I’m not sure if 90% of these people are even aware that they’re applying to a non-profit. Cover letters that have been customized really jump out at me.”

      Maybe they’re more into the job than your special organization.

      1. A Non*

        I’m fine with people who want to go down the career ladder. The issue is the number of resumes I’m seeing that were clearly spammed out to every job listed in our industry whether it’s an appropriate match or not. Unless they acknowledge the situation in some way in the cover letter, it looks like they’re among the latter.

  105. Laura*

    In the letter from the person wondering if it’s okay to leave off their resume a job they’ve only worked at a month, Alison said yes, specifying that it’s actually recommended not to include short-term jobs unless that’s what the arrangement was. She also said it’s recommended not to include jobs irrelevant to the one you’re applying for.

    In that case, how do you avoid the job gap issue? For example, if you worked for a period of time at a place that’s relevant to what you’re looking for, but afterward you worked somewhere unrelated or unsuitable for about 3-6 months, how do you account for those missing 3-6 months on the resume if asked at an interview?

    Sorry if this has already been asked. If so, feel free to post the link to this thread.

    1. fposte*

      It’s going to depend on the length of the job and what else is on your resume. Six months last year? Don’t leave it off. Three months ten years ago? Nobody is going to ask. Between the two, you figure it out based on relevance.

      Resumes aren’t literal job histories. It’s just that early in your career you don’t have much to leave off and it can be tough to figure out what shouldn’t go on there anyway. If somebody says “Hey, what did you do in the summer of 2000–I don’t see a job there” it’s NBD to say “Oh, I had a job out of the field to tide me over.”

    2. Retail Lifer*

      After losing my job a few years ago, I took the first job that came along just to get off unemployment even though I knew I couldn’t live off what they were paying me. I was there for two months until I got a better offer, and after three months at that job I was told my position might be eliminated. I started looking and found something else pretty quickly. On my resume, I have a five month gap in employment. Hiring managers don’t even always ask about it, but when they do I’m honest. I just let them know that I didn’t put those jobs on my resume because I wasn’t there for long and it required some explanation why. No one has ever seemed concerned about my explanation.

    3. LAI*

      fposte’s reply is perfect, but I’d also add that you can have an “additional experience” section if the irrelevant jobs were for such a significant length of time that you want to explain the gap. In the additional experience section, you just list the basic job info so they know that you were employed, but you don’t have to provide details that will take up extra space.

  106. Quit Your Whinin'*

    Anyone have any suggestions for dealing with coworkers who snap at you/push back with a list of excuses when asked to do a core component of their job? These coworkers are in a higher level position, but not supervisory. I’m looking for some tactful ways to say: “This is your job; it’s not my fault you have to do it because you’re the one available.”

    I’ve tried bringing up the issue with management (without naming names, as that seems to breed more drama here and I’m trying to stay out of that), but they only deliver a blanket message that is immediately ignored. (As in, there isn’t even an improvement in behavior for a few hours after the message is delivered.) At this point it’s happening in front of customers (and yes, I raised it that way with management–no improvement in their response.)

    1. fposte*

      If they’re getting the stuff done, management may not care if they’re snapping along the way.

      I’m thinking about the fact that this seems to be more than one person; this could be a sign of culture, it could be a sign of bad workflow, it could be a sign of both or something else. It might help you to treat it as it if were a sign of workflow issues and ask them, during a calm time when you’re not requesting their assistance, if there’s a better way for you to approach them when you’re on deadline and you need their thingummy–it’s clear that it’s pretty distracting, and that’s a disturbance to them and to the customers you’d like to avoid. Sometimes it can help to get it out into the open that they’re frustrated with the boss who has them do thingummy, not with you.

      But in general management may not care as long as they’re doing the things, and it’s hard to have a “don’t talk to me that way” discussion with an adult that doesn’t devolve into chaos. If you’ve built the ground, you may have some room to say “It’s not my fault that this part of the task comes to you, so please don’t take it out on me.” (Lists of excuses can just get a smiling shrug–“But you’re still Teapot Honcho, Jane, and it’s got to be honchoed–that’s just how the process works.”

      You didn’t say this explicitly, but I’m also wondering if the problem is that any of a few people could do this task and they all want it to be somebody else. In that case I’d speak to management not about tone but about identifying a single point person or creating a rota, because that kind of loose, flopping line just makes people trip over it.

      1. Quit Your Whinin'*

        There’s a pool of people who can do this task, and they do rotate though it per a schedule–problem is there’s always need for overflow assistance from others for various reasons (breaks, meetings, prior appointments, the person scheduled that day is already doing the task with someone else, etc.) so it’s a daily occurrence for everyone. They just do more on their rotation day. The expectation is that someone is always available to assist a customer, so I understand their frustration… but I also feel like it’s in the job description, it’s mentioned in the interview, it’s a core part of the job, that’s why the pool of people is so large and I can’t help it when a customer comes in!

        I like your verbiage; I will try that and see if it works. Thank you!

  107. Hockey puck, rattlesnake, monkey, monkey, underpants!*

    Asking for a friend:

    Her manager has been asking her into devoting half her time to a department she helps with but doesn’t want to work in as they short staffed (hiring freeze means its unlikely they’ll be getting more). It’s getting to the point where my friend feels pressured and has gone home in tears because of it. She is looking for a new job but does anyone have any phrases my friend could use with her manager? (Not in US but UK, if that matters any).

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      I’d start with Blimey and probably end with Bloody Hell!

      So the US answer to this is I would go to my manager and emphasize that I am doing the best I can in the other department. I would also explain that working in the other department doesn’t align with my long-term goals. I would also explain that I went into this understanding it was a temporary measure, and would like a date when I can get back to my regular duties. And wait for an answer.

      If I didn’t like the answer, I’d start looking.

  108. el conejo del fuego*

    This week’s post on the people-pleasing manager made me realize that, gulp, I am a big people pleaser myself. I didn’t realize the extent to which it can really just annoy people. I’d like to reform my ways as I think it will help me more at work and will tamp down the anxiety I get in every interaction (do they like me now? do they like me now? DO THEY LIKE ME NOW?). Does anyone have any book recommendations on getting away from these behaviors and improving my interactions with others at work? A lot of books seem to focus on the saying “no” to requests aspect, but I’d really like help on not just saying what I think others want to hear and worrying so much about what others think.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      I’m not a manger but am a people pleaser. Last week, for example, I said yes to a volunteer shift pattern that I didn’t want. I could hear myself saying it and thinking “What are you doing!?” as they are short staffed for that particular shift. Sigh.

      1. Jennifer*

        I know the feeling, you feel guilted into it, and like you will be in trouble if you’re the ONLY one who possibly could.
        I canceled an appointment I had three hours before it went down because guess what, we’re short staffed again and I’m the only one they can possibly get to do it. Sigh.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      There are some books by Brene Brown that aren’t specifically about people pleasing but I think they may help. One is the Gifts of Imperfection.

    3. afiendishthingy*

      Can you give any specific examples? I’ve been working on overcoming my people-pleasing instincts also. I am learning to say “Let me think about that and get back to you” to keep me from agreeing to things and regretting it, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you’re looking for. I am a little concerned by this statement: “I didn’t realize the extent to which it can really just annoy people”. It’s true that it can be annoying, but it sounds like you want to stop being a people-pleaser in order to please people. I could be wrong on that. But the truth is sometimes people aren’t going to like you or your decisions. It’s not easy but we have to learn to be ok with that.

      If you don’t read Captain Awkward – START. AaM has helped me be more assertive at work and Cap has helped me immensely in setting some boundaries in my personal life lately. It’s incredibly liberating.

    4. Charityb*

      I think the key is to care about other people’s wellbeing not just their immediate happiness. In that other thread, the manager was perfectly comfortable exposing her subordinates to personal and professional humiliation and undermining their credibility in the workplace just to avoid having any kind of disagreement at all. There’s something inherently callous about this kind of thing, and I think that (at least for me) it stems from ultra-short-term thinking. The goal when you’re stuck in this mindset isn’t really to “please people” or even to “make people feel better”, it’s just to, “stop them from being mad right now (often by doing something that hurts them later)” which isn’t very nice at all…

      For example, if you are fairly sure that you won’t be able to help coordinate a project for a coworker, you should say so upfront. In your mind though, your goal isn’t to say “no” for its own sake but to spare them from being frustrated later on. Sure, they might be a little disappointed now but later they’ll be happy that you were honest with them instead of promising them what they want and then flaking out on them later.

      For me that’s the kind of big picture thing that helped me with this. You’re not necessarily disregarding what others think and feel, you’re just taking into account more than just the next thirty seconds.

  109. Pezophaps solitaria*

    I am currently deciding between two different educational plans, and am hoping to get some perspectives from actual hiring managers on the resumes that they will generate.

    Six years ago I dropped out of college with half of a B.A. in Anthropology degree and a low GPA. Since then I have learned a lot about what I want to do with my life, as well as how to be a good student. It is now time for me to finish my bachelor’s degree. After school I intend to enter the geographic information systems field, ideally (but not necessarily) doing something related to natural resource conservation.

    I’ve identified two routes through school. Both options are offered by well-respected state universities that have very similar reputations.

    Option 1: Earn a geospatial analysis professional development certificate from a state school this fall, return to my original university next fall, and have the Anthropology degree in May 2017. My overall GPA will be in the low 3.0’s when I finish, and my major GPA will be around 3.5.

    Option 2: Attend a different university this spring and switch my major to Geography with a concentration Geospatial Analysis. Completing this degree would take until December 2017 and when I include the opportunity costs of the longer program the price is ~$13,000 more than option 1. I should point out that the Geospatial Analysis portion of this degree and the certificate are equivalent in time and material covered. I would aim for a major GPA of 4.0.

    How do these two resumes look to a hiring manager? On the surface does “Bachelor of Arts in Geography, Geospatial Analysis” look better than “Bachelor of Arts in Anthropology” with “Certificate in Geospatial Analysis”? It seems to me that I could write a resume that highlights the geospatial skillset that I will have regardless of which degree I pursue, rather than highlighting the difference between the degrees. On the other hand, what do I know?

    1. k cat*

      We hire GIS people, but in a much different context, so take this with a grain of salt, but:

      I would not care about degree as much as proof of actual skills the person has acquired and how they match the job, preferably with links to real life projects. If neither school would provide that, look into external opportunities, internships, etc. I’ve been burned by people who had the degree, but didn’t really seem to have the technology down, or who could not seem to complete a project.

      Also, I have never checked into a GPA, probably no one will care?

    2. The IT Manager*

      Do you think you’d get a bigger job hunting boost with being hired in GIS after getting the degree meaning – will companies show up at job fairs and hire GIS from campus?
      Do you have any previous job experience in GIS?

      I agree the differing GPAs are probably irrelevant.

    3. Ad Astra*

      That $13,000 difference is significant. In most cases, the specifics of your degree matter far less than your skills. I think you’d be better off saving yourself the time and money, especially if you’re able to get relevant part-time jobs or internships while you’re in school.

      Disclaimer: I don’t know a ton about this field and would welcome a correction from someone more knowledgeable, but it doesn’t seem like a field where your major is extremely important.

    4. abby*

      I work in natural resource management. I am a hiring manager. I do not hire people for this particular function, but I provide significant input in all hiring decisions at our organization.

      Based on my experience with this particular organization, you will have a hard time getting into natural resource conservation with an anthropology degree. Especially right out of school with no relevant work experience. Even if you are able to demonstrate your skillset, you will be missing a big piece that hiring managers look for, which is knowledge of or experience with natural resource conservation issue.

      I understand that switching your major will cost a lot more money and add time. If you decide to continue on the path with the anthropology degree, see if you can gear your courses towards natural resource management. See about doing related volunteer work, or getting summer internships with natural resource conservation organizations. Then you can build relevant experience and the degree might not matter so much.

  110. sophiabrooks*

    In my second job, I am currently being driven crazy by a higher level colleague (not really my boss) who is a nice man, but does not listen to anything I say. This is a theatre job, and I am in charge of the costume shop, which means I manage the people and processess of creating the costumes for the designer. He is the production manager, which means he is theoretically my boss, but he a) doesn’t really know much about costumes and b) we have a very dysfunctional artistic director who wants everyone to report directly to him. But one thing I do have to rely on him for is getting capital supplies– things that are large purchases like washers, computers, etc. What usually happens is I figure out what I need, I send the specs and prices, and then he purchases something much more expensive and far more complicated. Even if I explain why I want things. So I have, currently, a washer, a dryer, a sewing machine, and oddly enough a broom which don’t really work for the purposes I had in mind. The most recent issue I have is that we needed a computer in the shop that we could just go online and type into spreadsheets. I asked for a used Dell machine and I got an iPad, which I just don’t want! I know he thinks he is getting me something better, but I would really rather just have the thing I want! It is starting to make me feel like he thinks I am an idiot who doesn’t know anything. I have tried talking to him and explaining my reasoning, but he just doesn’t understand. He was so angry when I suggested a used washer (I wanted one with an agitator and a dial control so I can dye things) I thought his eyes were going to explode out of his head. I don’t think I can change him, so I guess I am looking for advice on not taking it personally, and possibly how to just go around him.

    1. Christy*

      Oh wow. Is he new? I’d talk to the artistic director. Or if both of them are in cahoots and are terrible together, I’d honestly consider saying something to the board. Do they realize the artistic director is dysfunctional? Is the production manager close to the artistic director? Honestly, I’d try to find a new job.

      Plus like, if he doesn’t trust your knowledge of the field, like what washer you need for dyeing, then he’s a terrible terrible colleague/boss.

      1. sophiabrooks*

        He’s newer than I am (I have been there 12 years, he has been there 5), but it has gotten worse in the past few years. Possibly because he is trying to take his job of purchasing things more seriously. I used to just order things through the Administrative Assistant, and she pretty much ordered what I wanted. She also (even though she has never worked in theatre) seems to understand what I need more easily. The artistic director wanted me to stop going through her, because it is really the production manager’s job.

        We are at a University, so they are both professors, and I am contract staff, so there is no board- the artistic director reports to the Dean, I guess? There is really no other comparable job in my area, and since I am part- time, I mostly don’t interact with them, much as we job in directors and designers from larger cities on a per show basis.

        As I am talking this through, I think I should probably just go back to dealing with the Admin Assistant for large purchases as well as the small purchases that I make myself (like thread, etc).

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          Can you try some ego stroking? Frame it that you understand the Production Manager should totally approve purchases, but that you value his time and it was working well to go through the assistant for the actual purchasing….?

  111. Healthcare*

    So, I visited HR and I don’t have a specified amount of notice I must give. I’m on contract and have only been here 6 months to give you some context.

    Two permanent staff in our department have left in the last 3 months. One gave two weeks, the other gave two weeks but took one week vacation as part of that notice.

    I have read you’re meant to give two weeks if you’re paid every two weeks, but I have also read you’re meant to give one week if you’ve been there under 1-2 years.

    Thoughts?

    2. Retail Lifer*

      Give two weeks. That’s the standard. Some places I’ve worked would even consider you not rehireable if you didn’t give a full two weeks notice.

    3. SL #2*

      Always, always default to 2 weeks. If you can and are willing to, offer more than that, but at the minimum, it should be 2 weeks.

    4. T3k*

      Oh god, if I gave just 1 week’s notice where I am now it’d piss everyone off and I wouldn’t be able to get a good reference.

  112. Amy*

    I’ve been dreaming about taking an epic American roadtrip–think 6-8 months–for a long time. It won’t be happening for at least another year (I’ve got a lot of saving that I need to do first!), but I want to be as smart as possible about taking this time away from my career.

    Does anyone here have any creative ideas or advice for how to prepare for such a long career break? Is there anything I can be doing to make getting a job easier when I get back? Or is this just something I can’t prepare for in advance?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’m so jealous Id love to take a trip like that it’s been ages since I did any travlling. 6-8 months is nothing in the big scheme of things, I wouldn’t worry about preparing to much in advance. The only in I can think of is write an upto date CV and be able to get it from Google docs or your email account so you can maybe start applying for jobs in the last couple of months of your trip so you can line some interviews up to coincide with getting home, unless you’re happy to be job hunting for a it longer after you get home.

    2. Red Rose*

      If you will be returning to the same area, I’d start now to up my game with my professional network–maybe join a local professional group or volunteer in your field–so that you have a ready-made list of contacts when you get back.

  113. Juli G.*

    My manager is great. He’s helpful, he’s a sounding board, he advises me instead of telling me, and it’s rare that he keeps information from me. Due to the nature of our roles (HR), I sometimes am a soundboard for him too.

    I can tell how frustrated he’s getting with the current organizational climate. It’s such a bummer because I do so much to keep good employees and I know we have one that’s likely to leave and there’s nothing I can do about it. And his departure is going to hurt me in the end to some extent.

    (I’m not seeing a reason to leave yet personally although future management plays into that decision).

    I started off thinking this was a question but it’s just a vent in the end. Ugh.

  114. Scotty_Smalls*

    My company is holding a Staff Appreciation lunch thing. We’re all part time and I don’t know if they are paying us to go. It’s not mandatory per se, but they are telling us that it’s really important that we go, so much so they are asking us to reschedule actual work if it conflicts. Is it asking too much to get paid to go?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      No, it’s not too much to ask, and they should pay you. I hope they are planning to.
      However, this is not the kind of thing I’d make a big deal out of if they aren’t. If your company normally asks for feedback after and event, that might be the time to say “I really enjoyed this. Since it was a work activity during the normal workday, I felt like we should have been paid, and I have to admit that took something away for me”

  115. MrsL*

    An update from me. Wrote in a few weeks back about my dilemma in possibly accepting a new job because of the long commute (close to 1.5 hour one way).

    Well, I was extended an offer and decided to accept since the role was what I have been looking for and I really felt like I clicked with the manager and people working there.

    2 weeks in on my new job now, and I could not be happier! They are very understanding of both commute issues and me having to come in late or leave early on days when I have day care duty (drop off and pick up). It’s such a relief. And, I get to telecommute on Fridays! (writing this on my lunch break from my home).

    I am still adjusting to being back to work, but feel really confident in my role already and what I am able to offer and what I will learn in my new job.

    I do believe that I have a lot to thank from this site. What I read, learned and applied from here gave me the following:

    1. A resume that got recognized. I did not even get a phone screen! They wanted me to come in for a face to face interview immediatley.
    2. I practiced interview answers and came across as very capable and confident during the interview.
    3. I made sure that I had questions ready, in order to get the answers I needed to feel confident that the job would be a good fit.
    4. Gave myself time to think over the benefits and ask additional questions when I had an offer extended to me. Even negotiated a higher salary, even though I was very happy with their initial offer.

    All things happened very quickly, within a two week time frame. I first worried that they wanted me because they needed someone quickly and that they had a hard time finding someone with the background I have. Turns out, they have been looking for several months, had several phone interviews and only a handful of face to face interviews. Feels good that they are not making hasty decisions and that I finally was able to present myself and my background properly to be given the chance to work for them.

    Thank you!

  116. KS*

    I’m relatively new to the work force. I’m in my 20s and recently graduated from college. I was wondering how to handle this issue. Sometimes when I come into work, my boss or other men above me will say something along the lines of “why aren’t you smiling today!?”. It’s not that I’m not happy or in a good mood but it’s 7:30 and I just walked into work. It’s only men that are above me that make the comments (at least once a week) but never to other guys?

    So I guess my question is- how do I handle this? And why are they doing this? It’s annoying.

    1. AnonAcademic*

      They are being paternalistic, sexist jerks. Sorry to hear this, but welcome to the workplace, won’t be your first or last encounter of this type. My honest reply would be a half-joking “I don’t smile till I’ve had my coffee.” Do NOT get in the habit of capitulating to the petty demands of sexist men. The key is to assert yourself while making them think you can “take a joke” and aren’t “uptight” (because since they’re above you you can’t throw out a sarcastic “I’m sorry my facial expression isn’t up to your standards” or “Same reason YOU aren’t smiling” like you could with an acquaintance or stranger). The underlying message should be “I’m not playing this game” but it should be delivered with such disarming friendliness that the subtext is barely readable.

      1. fposte*

        I like these. Other possibilities: you could try innocently saying “Hey, how come you never say that to the male employees?” You could turn to the nearest male employees and say “Why do you guys think we aren’t smiling today? Bob wants to know.” You could say “I take my work very seriously, Bob; I’d hate for you to think otherwise.”

        But yeah, this is a thing. By which I mean a sexist thing. Not that they’re immediately people who won’t promote you because of your gender, but they’re talking to you in a way they need to knock off, because it implies that women, especially young women, need to be smiling and men get to nudge them back into it if they’re not.

        1. Ad Astra*

          Yep, these are good too. Your coworkers are being sexist jerks, but they’re probably just trying to establish a rapport. Pointing out that they never ask the men that in a nonthreatening way could really help.

          If these guys were strangers, I’d advise you to be a whole lot less nice about this.

    4. Amber Rose*

      I often give the most hideous, fake smile I can create with my face. But I’m not sure if that’s work appropriate.

      It might be good to just have an assortment of returns memorized.

      “I’m not a morning person.”
      “Haven’t had my coffee yet.”
      “You can see it if you look at me upside down.”
      “Nobody has said anything funny yet.”
      “I had spinach for breakfast.”

    5. Jennifer*

      They do this because frequently men insist that women smile.

      Unfortunately, you’re probably better off plastering on a fake smile than picking a fight with older men above you at work when you’re a young female peon.

    6. T3k*

      If you can get away with it go in a deadpan voice “Because it’s Monday [or whatever day of the week it is]” even if it’s Friday, because then you can go “It’s still not the weekend.”

      My favorite go to is a bit more tongue in cheek though “I’ll smile when I have something to smile about” but only do that if you know you can get snippy with them.

    7. Ultraviolet*

      So aggravating! I’ve never had to deal with this at work, so these are all untested suggestions, but you could try any of these:

      -“Don’t worry, I’m good! How are you?”
      -“What do you mean?”
      -“I’ve never heard someone recommend smiling so much! How did it come to be so important to you?”
      – Say to your boss sometime, “You often ask me why I’m not smiling. Do you have any concerns we could discuss about my attitude or interactions with coworkers? I really enjoy this position and I’m worried that’s not coming through.”
      -Try it on them sometime when you see them not smiling. Act like you think it’s a joke that applies to everyone in the office, as opposed to the gendered BS it almost certainly is. (Yes, there are some workplaces where this would come off as too familiar or disrespectful, but I at least have worked in offices where it would be fine.)

        1. fposte*

          I don’t like telling them to smile, because it normalizes something you’re trying to stamp out, but I *love* this. (And make sure you don’t smile when you say it–just look interested and curious.)

          1. Ultraviolet*

            Yeah, definitely don’t smile when you say it! Don’t smile and don’t sound like you’re demanding an explanation–just try for an interested tone. Like you’re expecting his answer might be something pleasant but not too exciting. “Why, what’s up?” “There are free cookies in the kitchen, didn’t you know?”

            (I’m not too concerned that telling a man to smile will normalize it, because context makes telling a man to smile and telling a woman to smile fairly different. But it is pretty reasonable to refrain from saying a phrase you’d like to hear less of yourself!)

    8. KS*

      Thank you everyone for the advice! I’m deff going to be using what everyone suggested. I guess I never considered it to be a sexist behavior until it was pointed out to me. I mean, I kinda had a feeling since it was only being said to the youngest female in the office but I didn’t understand the meaning behind.

      While we are on the topic. I had an awkward situation where a male coworker told me that I was the perfect size for a women. I stared blankly at him, but does anyone have any better advice? Is this something I should tell my manager?

      I’m kind of surprised sometimes about sexism in the workplace. When I was in college, I was in the minority in my program but I had a great group of professors that really respected and treated women equally. It kind of made me believe that the “real world” would be the same.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        No no no no NO.

        I think staring blankly was a pretty good response. If he or someone else says anything similar again I’d go with a firm, unsmiling “Do not comment on my body/That’s inappropriate/etc” and then yeah, I probably would go to your manager. And DOCUMENT. I’m sorry you’re going through that.

      2. Ultraviolet*

        That was completely inappropriate of him! Gross. This is definitely something you can talk to your manager about. If your manager doesn’t take it seriously, you can then bring it to HR or your manager’s manager.

        (By the way, the fact that your boss was one of the people asking you about smiling doesn’t necessarily mean he won’t be helpful here. Making inappropriate comments about your body is a whole new level of sexism, and there are plenty of people who will be aware of that despite not understanding the sexism of the “smile” issue. Moreover, even if your manager doesn’t really think this kind of sexual comment is a big deal, he probably knows that it needs to be nipped in the bud to protect the company from lawsuits.)

      3. Ultraviolet*

        I meant to respond to your last paragraph too. My undergraduate experience was similar to yours, and then facing sexism in grad school was awful. I wish I had something wise or helpful to say, but you’re not alone! Never start to think that it might just be you.

        1. KS*

          Thanks, I appreciate it. It is just frustrating. Thankfully, this job is only a temp job and then I can move on!

  117. KG212*

    I’m on the hunt for a good interview suit and was wondering if anyone had any advice on where to get one without killing the bank? (<$300 would be ideal)

    Thanks!

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Clearance section at Ann Taylor (maybe I should ask first if you are a man or a woman)?

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      If you have one nearby Burlington Coat Factory, they’re more than great coats you know! :)

      I once had to power shop for a meeting in the late afternoon that required a suit but I wasn’t dressed for that. Ran over at my lunch hour and pick up an Anne Klein pant suit for under $100.

    3. SL #2*

      I don’t know if you read her, but Belle over at Capitol Hill Style has pretty good suiting advice, and if you send her a question with the price range, she’s usually able to work with it.

      I recently bought a pair of slacks from Banana Republic’s outlet and while I’ve never gotten a dud from their outlet, I was surprised by how excellent the quality was. I don’t know how much their full suits are, but maybe it’s worth looking at their outlet or even at their regular store.

    4. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Not sure if you are a man or a woman but here is my advice if you are a woman:

      I just got a great interview suit at Macy’s in their Calvin Klein suit separates section. It was great for me because they have petites and regular sizes and the majority of the separates are in the same fabric so you can pick a jacket that works and a bottom that works instead of having to match fabrics in a very limited style selection. I bought a jacket, skirt, and a blouse for $198.

      1. BRR*

        I was going to say Macy’s on sale (which things are always on sale but they should have a good specific suit sale).

    5. Scotty_Smalls*

      JCPenney, I bought a jacket there for about 30 bucks. JC Penney usually has great coupons as well as good sales. I brought it home and discovered the slacks I had were the same brand and color. Voila instant suit!

    6. T3k*

      If you’re a woman:
      I just bought mine (separates) through Amazon. Got Calvin Klein and it was cheaper through Amazon than CK’s site (paid about $170 total for the jacket and pants, including having them tailored). I had actually tried online through JCPenney before Amazon because they had petite sizing and was cheaper, but turns out they were too tight in the shoulders, which I quickly learned is not an easy thing to fix. But if you’re not a specialty sizing, try JCPenney as well.

    8. A Non*

      I’m a huge fan of Nordstrom’s Rack for high-quality work clothes. Like most outlet stores it can be a bit hit and miss and you have to sort through entire racks of ‘ew, no wonder that didn’t sell’ to find the gems, but I have several Really Nice classic pieces of clothing that I got for less than half their sticker price there. The Nordstrom’s Racks located in major cities will generally have more higher-end clothing than ones in suburbs.

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      I sure wouldn’t do it at your local McDonald’s.

      Home is fine as long as you have a place to do it where you won’t be interrupted. It’s not like they’re not going to hire you because of your choice of curtains (unless you’re interviewing for an interior designer, then it could be an asset).

    3. BRR*

      There’s a post somewhere on here. But yeah at home, practice to see what you look like (more lighting usually helps), neutral background, place your cam slightly higher than eye level (I find it more flattering), and look at the camera and not the screen.

    4. Alma*

      I have used the study/meeting rooms at the library. They are soundproof, the wifi is solid – so my signal will be strong, and my yappy dog will not begin cursing at the squirrels while I’m on the call. It is also a helpful resource if you cannot do interviews in your present workspace.

      They are not usually colorful, however! You might want to mention your location at the beginning of the call so the interviewers don’t try to imagine where it is you might be.

  119. Newsie*

    Forgive me if this comment is a little confusing – I’m so tired I’m having trouble writing!

    My job is so frustrating that I’ve applied for a lateral position at a slightly less prestigious office in order to get better hours and a better workload. My current supervisor, who is slightly newer to the show, expects us to work up to 15 hours a day. I slept through my (later-than-normal) gym alarm today because I’m so exhausted all the time – that never used to happen before. He bends to everyone else’s requests even when we tell him that what he’s asking for is not feasible or relevant. He’ll then chastise us if we’re falling behind or if we provide too much information at his request.

    (We have a new freelancer and he’s astonished how crazy our supervisor is. It’s good to get that external validation.)

    I’m not going to ruin my career forever by going to a less prestigious office with a lower workload instead of slogging through the hell that is my supervisor, am I? I mean, of course, this job I’ve applied for is not guaranteed. But if I did get it, and take it, would I be forever tainted?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Not quite what you asked but if you’re sure you want to leave your prestigious firm and go to another firm make sure you have a good explanation for why you want to move and what you hope to get at the new firm that you’re not getting at your current firm and you should have more to say than a better work life balance and to escape a crazy boss.

      1. Newsie*

        My beat would be different – much more specific, with new topics to expand my knowledge base. So I have non-exhaustion related reasons, to be sure. (Plus I’ve worked with about four people there – they’re such great people and they love the environment. I can figure out a way to convey that I hear they have an excellent work environment that I’m eager to be a part of and to contribute to.) Thanks for the reminder though, Apollo!

    2. Ad Astra*

      A few things:
      1. Nobody can consistently work 15-hour days for an extended period of time without burning out; this is absolutely not a reasonable expectation.

      2. If your handle is an indication that you’re a journalist, I would say a lateral move isn’t a career-killer, but really think about the work itself. Would it allow you to work on a skill you’d like to develop further? Would you get to focus more on a specific beat/style/role you’re interested in? Is there someone at this new office you think you could learn a lot from? Basically, is there any way this benefits you besides the more manageable schedule? Choose a job where you’ll still be growing and developing as a professional.

      3. I don’t think the risk to your career is as great as the risk to your health and happiness. A lateral move to a less prestigious office might hurt you or it might not, but you won’t be forever tainted.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Oh one more thing that I forgot:

        If you’re sleeping through your alarms, I highly suggest the Sleep Cycle app or something similar. If you have to be up at 6, you set Sleep Cycle alarm for 6 and it wakes you up between 5:30 and 6 depending on where you are in your sleep cycle. I know a lot of people who kept sleeping through multiple alarms, or frequently woke up feeling exhausted, because their alarms were waking them from a deep sleep. The app made a huge difference for them.

        Obviously the real problem is that you’re not sleeping enough, but a sleep app could at least mitigate some of those issues until you figure out the rest.

        1. Newsie*

          Oh, good call. I’ll download that app right now. Thank you!

          And thank you for the support. I’ll look to see if there’s someone I can work with at this new office to further my career, and I’ll make sure to ask about other opportunities to expand my career. Thanks!

  120. Nashira*

    I have to share my excitement. I may not have heard back on any jobs I’ve applied to recently, because slow government HR is slow, but I’m killing it in my assembly language class. Assembly is usually considered pretty hard to learn, but so far I’m rocking a high A and getting very positive feedback from my professor on my code. Such as “you’re the only student to get this assignment fully right”. I keep feeling like a fraud for thinking I can code, because I was terrible at it as a kid, but man! I’m rocking st x86: this is so awesome!

    Oh, and rocking at teaching myself Python, which is a blast. It’s more intuitive than x86 assembly, and makes a killer brain break. I am pleased with myself.

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      Congrats. When you can write assembler, you have a finer appreciation for the “high level” languages.

      1. Nashira*

        Especially pointers and memory management. Next time I have to write C++, there will be a lot less “does it compile if I make the parameters pointers?”/assuming they’re black box magic I think.

  121. Healthcare*

    Here’s a cautionary tale for hiring managers looking at internal candidates.

    Internal role opened up, so I met with the hiring manager to go over the responsibilities and expectations for the incumbent. It was a good fit, so I applied. I was invited to a first round interview and it went pretty well. I was invited back for a second interview that included a presentation I gave to the hiring committee.

    After a week or so, the hiring manager asked to meet with me. We met yesterday around 10am and she basically interviewed me again. At the end of this informal third interview, she offered me the job. She said she didn’t know how much it paid – only that it paid more than my current role. She wasn’t too sure of the benefits or vacation.

    At this point, she asked me if I would be able to accept the role. Naturally, I wasn’t going to accept a job without a clear understanding of the compensation, so I asked to take a day to get the information from HR and make my decision. She agreed. I contacted HR, but did not get a reply. I figured the HR rep left early and would respond in the morning.

    9:30am this morning I get an e-mail saying the offer has been rescinded. An offer I had been given was rescinded before I knew how much it paid. If that’s how they treat internal candidates, I shudder to think how the external ones are treated.

    It ends well for me since I have an external role lined up, but I just thought I’d share a HR nightmare.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Yikes! Sounds like you’re well out of that place I can believe they think that’s a good hiring method.

      1. Wilton Businessman*

        Firefox 40.0.3
        Windows 8
        Computer less than 1 year old

        It would take me 3 minutes to scroll down a page. Typing was horrendously slow. 75% of my CPU was being used by Adobe Flash although the browser was the only thing I had up on your page.

        I installed flash block and it’s zipping right along. Fine for me, but not great for your advertisers.

          1. bridget*

            I had the same problem earlier this afternoon; often video ads here pull me away from where I was in the comments, but this time it just made my browser lag like crazy (4-5 second lag for keystrokes and individual clicks of the scroll wheel). I would have found the ad to get the URL for you, but 1) then *I* would make myself lose my place in the comments, not just the ad, and 2) it would have taken forever to get back to the top of the page. I just had to quit the browser altogether. Wish we could be more helpful in our complaints. :(

          3. Shell*

            Alison, would you consider taking donations for the site? I use an ad-blocker to view this site; given the headaches with ads, I’m sure I’m not the only one. I feel kind of guilty about it, because this site takes a lot of your time/energy as well as money to run, and it’s one of my favourite places on the Internet!

            I think the site is more revenue-making at this point rather than breaking even, so you might be weirded out by the idea of taking our money to pay you. But I thought I’d ask.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Thank you so much for that impulse! I wouldn’t feel right taking donations, but if you want to support the site, one thing you can do is buy my e-book — if not for yourself, then perhaps for a friend or family member. But just continuing to read is also enough :)

          4. Aussie Teacher*

            I can’t read AAM on my computer (MacBook, Firefox) because the video ads make the page load and scroll horrendously slowly. I just read it on my phone now.

  123. Ad Astra*

    Should I start looking for a new job?

    I’ve been working at this company for about 6 months, and overall I feel good about the work and the people. The pay is about average and most of the benefits range from average to good, with one huge exception: For the first two years with this company, I only get 5 days of vacation per year. In the second year, I have to use all 5 days in a row for an audit week.

    I’m at an age where many of my close friends are getting married and having babies, while most of my family lives 3 or more hours away, so taking off a Friday here and there is really important to me. I’m considering looking for other jobs, but I feel guilty and I’m worried that being at my current job for such a short time will be a red flag.

    In year 3, my vacation will bump up to 15 days, which I think is suitable. And of course, with any new job, there’s usually a 90-day waiting period or it takes a while to accrue vacation time. Should I just wait it out?

    1. Kyrielle*

      Ugh. That’s grim, because most places would give you two weeks. Will they let you take up to five additional days unpaid, and if they would, can you afford to and would that change the equation? Do they (if you’re exempt!) support any kind of ‘comp time’ scheme – or heck, even if you’re not exempt, a work-ahead where occasionally you could do a week of four tens and then take time? (And again, if they did, would that tip the balance for you?)

      Looking after six months isn’t ideal, and you don’t want a new employer to think you’re focused on vacation, but 5 days (and all of them bespoken in one year) is a bit ridiculous.

      1. Ad Astra*

        I took one day unpaid for a wedding early in my time here, so it was nice that my manager was flexible about that, but in general I can’t afford to take unpaid time off and they probably wouldn’t like it. I’m exempt, but there’s no comp time. We work 8-5 every day; if we work late, we don’t generally get to leave early the next day. The good news is I rarely work late.

        But my function is marketing, so in theory I could do my job in four 10’s just as easily as I could in five 8’s. I might ask about it next time I need a Friday off.

    2. Wilton Businessman*

      Go to your manager. Ask if you can swap a Saturday for a Friday two weeks away.

      Otherwise, you just might have to miss the event.

      Sometimes you have to make hard choices in life.

      Six months is a short time in your first job. If you told me you left because you didn’t realize the vacation was only 5 days the first two years, I’d probably wonder if you’re going to leave my place because you didn’t realize the walls were blue and you can’t work in a blue office.

      1. fposte*

        I’m with Wilton (Wilton! Speaking of commenters who haven’t been seen around as much lately); alternatively, ask if you can take some days unpaid.

        5 days sucks, but it’s not that unheard of, since the average is 8 or 9. And you knew that going in, so you don’t want to give that as a reason for leaving, especially on top of a really early departure for a first job out of college in many to most fields. I certainly wouldn’t leave without lining something else up, and I’d assume I’d have to stay at the next one for longer even if they turn out to be jackasses.

      2. Ad Astra*

        Oh, this isn’t my first job. It’s my third since college. I’ve missed a lot of events for work over the last 5 years, but this job is the most frustrating because it offers only half of the standard two weeks. My role is far from essential, so it’s weird that I need to be working 51 weeks per year at such a slow-paced job. It would bother me less if I had two or three weeks and was finding that it’s not enough for all the events I want to go to, but we’re talking about five days for a whole year. Accrued at 1.5 hours per pay period.

        It’s not that I didn’t realize I only got 5 vacation days; I was on unemployment and wasn’t allowed to turn down the job without losing my benefits.

  124. Cherry Rose*

    Long time reader, first time commenter.

    I have an interview on Monday that is described as admin for a fundraising (major donor) team. I currently work in marketing with some digital support for the development team – but this will still be something of a change. So my questions are:

    – what sort of interview questions might I expect?
    – Am I wrong to think this is the kind of thing that might lead up the fundraising tree?

    Thanks so much for all help!

    1. About to Interview*

      This may not help, but check out the company on Glassdoor.com. They may have interview questions for the company (and even the department).

      Good luck in your interview!

  125. Anxiously Waiting*

    Does anyone have any advice on staying sane while waiting to hear back about a job you interviewed for?

    I just completed round two of interviews for my dream job last Wednesday, and am waiting to hear back about a potential round three. A former employer with connections at the company called to put in a good word for me and reported back that they really liked me. It’s been over a week now, I sent a thank you note after my interview and a follow up email a week after — and I am LOSING IT waiting to hear back!

    2. Amber Rose*

      Don’t think of it as waiting. Pretend that you didn’t get it, or that it never happened, and put it out of your mind.

      1. De Minimis*

        I always try to just move on to applying for other things. Of course, that presumes there’s a lot of things out there to apply to.

  126. Di Banana*

    Anyone have suggestions for my problem? My boss runs three departments. He’s only interested in running one. I think he sees that our department is important, and he’s told me he wants our department to be better than its been in the past (I’ve only been there 6 months), but he doesn’t want to do anything to help make it better. I’ve finally managed to get a monthly 1:1, but he doesn’t seem interested in following up on anything I bring up. We’re quality control. Clients break brand guidelines all the time. Grammar is dire. Yet my boss says it’s ok for stuff to go through if our brands want it to. It leaves me feeling like my role is redundant, and like it’s only a matter of time before someone higher up kills our department altogether because our work doesn’t actually lead to anything of value. Through our 1:1s I’ve also discovered there’s a set of guidelines we don’t have access to, which we should have had five years ago. It’s been a month and the woman in charge of the document (someone much, much higher up than me) won’t send it, and my boss doesn’t seem particularly fussed either. On the other hand, my boss has agreed to pay for some training I wanted, and actually upped my salary by 4000 pounds after we’d agreed on compensation. I don’t know what to make of it, but his lack of involvement in the day to day stuff is disheartening — what’s the point of my role if no one’s going to back me up when our clients are allowed to keep things like “learnings have been taken as lessons” in copy for public consumption? My co-workers said they feel the same way, and they’ve accepted it is what it is. Can anyone help me out? I have no idea of where to go next with this.

      1. Di Banana*

        How do you mean exactly? I asked him if there’s a point that I can tell a client they can’t have the copy they want or break guidelines, and he says I can’t do anything but point it out, and that the final decision is theirs. I gave him the most atrocious copy as an example (to the point that the dyslexic artworker warned me in advance), and that was still his answer. Saying you can’t have it would go against his direct wishes. So are you suggesting I break a direct order? I’m also sceptical of that approach, because certain clients won’t send us stuff now, even though that’s against departmental regulations. Again, boss has told everyone they need to do this, but to my knowledge never enforces it.

        1. Amtelope*

          I’m not in your industry, but I’m also in a position where we can follow our style guide and best practices all we want, but at the end of the day, the client can still overrule us. Would it help to think of your QA job as making sure that clients EITHER follow the guidelines OR confirm in writing that although you’ve pointed out that they’re breaking the guidelines/have errors in their copy, that’s still the way they want it? You can’t make clients do it “right,” but you can document that your company wasn’t the one who broke the rules or okayed dreadful copy, and that’s important to do.

          1. Di Banana*

            I think you’re right, and you echo what one of my co-workers suggested. Hopefully I can convince my boss of the importance of documenting this. Thanks.

            I’m still somewhat concerned that people higher up the chain won’t see that we’ve made suggestions – they already get annoyed about errors in copy, even though nine times out of ten it turns out it wasn’t sent to us – so I’m going to set up my own website and see if I can get one or two jobs a month myself. Someone who directly looks for that service will probably be a bit more open, and I can avoid feeling like a sitting duck if I have a little bit of my own work coming in.

            Thanks again.

  127. HelenaV*

    Sigh…Caught between two jobs. I’m lucky in that there are no really bad options, but I don’t know what to do for the best.
    Job A: New and marketable skillset, substantially more money up front. A chance to explore a major Thing in my industry that could be great long term. More time off and occasional work from home perks.
    However: Would be going from being an organisational expert with a lot of prominence in my dept to being a very small cog at the bottom of a very big wheel. It’s also not what I want to be doing long term-I’d be picking up the skills and cycling out within a year or two.

    Job B: Where I am now- I will have a chance to take on more responsiblity, more projects, and also supervisory/ management responsiblities. This is absolutely the area I want to be in, long term. Taking on supervisory/ high level work now could eventually land me in management in my direct field- possibly eventually earning more than in job A?
    However- the pay is not enough, and I do worry I’d be settling to be exploited if I don’t progress soon. I need to start making more and moving on up. The locationisn’t ideal and there are no real perks.

    So… which would people pick? I honestly don’t know what would be for the best- heart says stay, head says go and start earning more now.

    1. Kyrielle*

      I have no desire to be management (actually, I desire to avoid it!), value time off and wouldn’t *object* to extra money, so I’d move to Job A. But what I rate as important and what you do are probably not the same! Most of what I have is therefore down to questions:

      Do you want to be in a management role ultimately, or are you just planning to “move up” and management is how that’s normally done? Would you like to do management activities, or do you want a high individual contributor role?

      What’s your current team/company like, as far as culture? How about the new one? More time off – does that mean more vacation time, and if so, do they actually let employees take all their vacation, or is it a pretty-on-paper benefit? Are you in a good team environment or would you be in a better one if you moved?

      If all else is equal and you do cycle into Job A, what are your chances – if you want to! – of moving up from Cog to something else in a reasonable time frame? If you take Job A, will you be burning bridges with Job B, or is there a chance that in 1-2 years you could cycle back to that company and move into more responsibility?

  128. Beachnut*

    All the resume advice i hear is to list your accomplishments at work and show how you made an impact. But what if thats not the case? No, nothing you did made sales increase by a million percent..no you didnt create some database that revoutionalized the efficiency of an entire industry. Instead i was given a job and did it well for many years but nothing fancy. Do I need to embellish?

    1. fposte*

      No, you need to rethink. What did you do? What did “doing it well” mean? How did people think of you there, and how could you tell?

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      I think the advice Allison always gives is to think of what a mediocre person (someone who doesn’t do poorly enough to get fired, but doesn’t do great) would do, and how you do it differently. Were things more prompt? Were you more proactive? How so? Did you improve any processes so they were quicker or cheaper? Were you the office go-to person for a specific thing?

  129. Nanc*

    Oh, I so meant to post this earlier!
    Great jobs just opened up in my little corner of the PNW.

    All are at the National Fish & Wildlife Forensics Laboratory (think CSI: crimes involving wildlife)
    1. Geneticist (Bioinformatics) – closes 9/30/2015
    2. Forensic Scientist (Ornithology) – closes 10/1/2015
    3. Forensic Scientist (Mammalogy) – closes 10/1/2015

    Here’s the link to their jobs page: http://www.fws.gov/lab/jobs.php

    While Ashland, OR is a smallish town, we have the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, which is pretty much the largest nearly year round repertory theatre in the US. It’s a great place if you love outdoor activities. It’s in southern Oregon so we get 4 seasons, although our snow is usually confined to the hills and looks picturesque.

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      *waves* I majored in theatre at SOU. Lovely little town, great weather, insufficient public transportation.

  130. Allison*

    Would love to get some opinions. I am in a job search- my current company was purchased and I am on a short term transition assignment only, ending in December. It stinks because I just joined in April, first front-line management role, liked the work, etc. However, that’s the way the cookie crumbles- my network is fresh and I have a couple months time, I’ll survive.

    Working with an external recruiter I got an interview with a local company, more in my previous industry, stable, etc., for a title comparable to what I left behind in the spring, think senior staff level, but with promotion potential as the next level up has retirement plans in the near future. I liked the people well enough, the work would have been fine, but it took me 40 minutes drive in the middle of the day to go 25 miles. That means an hour each way every day at rush hour knowing the area, and heaven help us in the winter (I live in a place where there is definitely weather). Solely on that basis I withdrew my candidacy- it didn’t make sense to me to go back a level and take a big lifestyle hit. I am at the small child at home stage and it’s just too hard to be gone that much.

    Two weeks have gone by- the recruiter calls me back today and says they really liked me, and would it change my answer if they upped the title to something more comparable to the job I’m losing, added a couple of direct reports, and bumped up the salary by about $10k.

    My impulse is to say no, it doesn’t fix the commute and therefore lifestyle issue. But I wanted to sanity check- is it nuts to bypass a pretty good opportunity where it appears I’m sought after because of the commute? I do have some other things in process so it’s not like this is the only job I’ll be able to find.

    2. Biff*

      I don’t think it’s nuts, but could you come back with something that the job could do that would impact the commute:

      “I’m not concerned about the title so much as I’m concerned about the commute. Could they give me some telework, relocation or flex-time options?”

  131. Yankee Abroad*

    Any advice for a friend on how to build a professional network abroad? My American friend moved to BC while their partner attends UBC in a different field. We are both recent MSWs and want to continue clinical/direct social services work. Any advice about how my friend can build a network of contacts, or any specific advice about social work in Canada?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      I work with the world’s loudest sneezer. She is very soft-spoken otherwise. I think she probably just does not realize she doesn’t need to scream when she sneezes, but oh dear god STOP.

    2. NicoleK*

      Coworker has a high pitched voice and sounds like the wicked witch of the west when she laughs. When she truly lets loose, her laugh is so loud, the sound travels down the hall

      1. fposte*

        Ooh, playing “guess the source post”–is it the one about male employees asking the female employee to smile?

  134. Rowan*

    What are some good answers to the “Where do you see yourself in five years’ time?” annual appraisal question when the honest answer is, “Not here.”

    My boss is desperate to keep me, but there is nothing she can do that would make that happen: I need to earn more money, she does not have the power to give merit raises, and I do not have the necessary qualifications to move up far in my current field (academia). I don’t anticipate being in my job more than another year. I don’t want to lie, but I know that my boss is fixated on our five year development plans.

    1. Sascha*

      How is your relationship with her? Can you be honest and tell her you don’t see yourself staying? Also, is there some professional development you can get in lieu of a raise, like training or certifications? That could be helpful in getting a better job down the line.

      1. Rowan*

        I suppose I could just tell her. I’m worried she’ll start panicking and make my work life more difficult while I am there – she doesn’t like the idea of losing any of our skills, and thinks we can preserve them all in instruction manuals! I have done some training, but anything else that would significantly help me in another job would take a bit longer than I want to be in the job for, so I’m a bit reluctant. I’ll have another look into it!

    2. TheLazyB (UK)*

      Talk about the position you’d like to be in but in extremely vague non-specific terms? It sounds like she knows it’s a possibility that you’ll leave given the circumstances.

  135. Sascha*

    My department is going through a reorg. Typical reorg happenings…higher ups are being vague and cheerful, rumors are flying around, and the promise of raises and new titles that occurred at initial announcement of the reorg has been rescinded. At least I still have a job, and telecommuting.

    1. AnotherFed*

      I feel your pain – we’re going through a reorg effective in a few weeks, and we’ve heard next to nothing useful – no org chart, no idea how normal processes will be changed, nothing. Even things like submitting time off requests – we’re supposed to get them approved at least 2 weeks out, but they haven’t identified who the new managers are to approve the requests!

      1. Sascha*

        My manager keeps saying, “Essentially, nothing is changing…” Uh no, everything is changing! He’s trying to make this sound positive but the more he does that, the worse I feel about all of it.

  136. De Minimis*

    I just got some good news. I’d applied for an accounting position at a nonprofit last weekend and they just called me and said they wanted me to come in for an interview. It’s a good sign since the job hasn’t even closed yet and I sent them my resume less than a week ago.

    I need to bring a writing sample, and they said it could be anything [the nonprofit is in education and is in the communication field] as long as it shows my writing style. I will probably have to write something specifically for this, should it be limited to a professional topic? I thought I might write something about my old job and its funding structure, but written for a non-technical audience. I need to see what I have on my computer.

    When I applied I was really hoping something like this would happen, so I’m really glad that it did.

    1. BRR*

      Congratulations!

      It should definitely be a professional topic. I would try and write something that you would write in the position you’re applying for.

  137. Eva*

    I have seen comments on here before about managers who are really accepting of employees who tell them they are job hunting. Has anyone managed to tell their boss they are looking for jobs, and maintain a decent working relationship until the time they leave? Have you told your boss when you need to take an extended lunch break for a job interview, or even a whole day out? Or have you used other excuses for being out of the office (medical appointment, vacation day etc.) so that it is not awkward?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s been almost exclusively my experience. Then again I’ve mainly worked in schools (which operate on an academic calendar—so it’s fairly typical for teachers or even administrators to let the school know months before about impending departures). If you don’t think your boss is a jerk (and thus either going to make your life miserable or fire you out of retaliation for an imagined offense), there are a couple of benefits to letting her know ahead of time that you’re looking for jobs:

      1. No sneaking around. You have to take a phone call at lunch for a phone interview? Fine. You’re taking that vacation day not for vacation but to do an interview. Also fine.

      2. If your boss is a decent person and not a jerk and you’re an excellent worker, she will actually become your advocate and volunteer to be a reference, maybe even connect you with some people. I once had a boss tell me “You just get them to call me as a reference. If that happens, you’ve got the job.”

      There are downsides, too, of course. The obvious one is that your boss may be a jerk, and that may be why you were thinking of leaving in the first place. Another potential downside is the timing of your job search. If you say “I’m leaving in four months,” that gives you less than four months to find a new job. And, again, if your boss is a jerk and has no ethics, she can also fire you before the four months is up.

    2. Kyrielle*

      I was afraid to telegraph that I was leaving at my last job, because I preferred not to be without a job, and we’d just been bought – I simply didn’t know the new company that well (but I did know that certain aspects of my schedule were making headaches for their HR team to straighten out, and so on). I was a very key component of the team, as well, so the idea of me leaving had the potential to send someone into an “oh no” spin – that could be very bad, depending.

      So I just didn’t say anything. I had the advantage, however, that my variant schedule that caused HR headaches also meant I had one day every week free for interviewing, which made it really easy to do without telegraphing things.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      Yes. I have previously told my boss that I was on the job market and maintained a decent working relationship with that person. The key for me was maintaining my level of engagement with my job, participating in meetings, continuing to manage projects, developing new programs or ideas, etc. It helped that my boss was a rational and understanding individual and that the factors for my wanting to leave were family-related, not job-specific.

      I had a fair degree of autonomy with regard to my schedule at that position, so I didn’t make a point of saying “I’ll be out for an interview” or whatever. I just took the time as vacation or flex time (or scheduled phone interviews as best I could around early morning/lunch/late afternoon windows. I recognize this is not possible with every job. I am glad I spoke with my boss about this, but I did not go out of my way to update on every interview, etc., unless the boss was likely to be called as a reference. My reasoning was that after the initial conversation, saying I’m interviewing just emphasizes in the boss’s mind (no matter how accepting the person is) that I’m looking to leave, which may cause a shift in how I’m perceived/treated. It’s a tricky balance to maintain, no question.

  138. AV*

    I was just given a project to head at work that, well, I can’t say I’m too excited about it. I’ll do it well and I won’t complain about it (I hope), but ultimately I don’t care about it. However, my boss seems to think that this is something I should be REALLY passionate about and that it should be my “baby” (lol no). How on earth can you feign passion for a project that you’re just… blah about?

    1. Nanc*

      Focus on doing it as well and as quickly as you can, I guess. Can you ask your boss to define what she/he means by passion? If not, maybe try being super-enthusiastic about updates. Hey, we finished stage 1 two days early–that gives us a bit more time to review and prepare for stage 2! Hey, we just IDed a major flaw in the completed stage, but it’s something we can easily fix in the next stage! Wow, I just learned a new Excel tip that’s really going to help in the reporting process of the project!

  139. Sparkly Librarian*

    Coming in late today because I was in meetings all morning… I think this week falls under “When It Rains, It Pours.” Or possibly “Say Yes.” But really probably “Here Is My Overachiever’s Certificate, Long Form.”

    -I worked an outreach event on Sunday for work (paid overtime, yay).
    -I have an all-day training tomorrow for future career development (work-related but unpaid).
    -Also my dad is coming for dinner on Sunday. The day after my wife hosts a potluck in our home. Somehow we’re going to clean up before/during/after that. Since it’s the first time he’s seen the place since we bought it almost a year ago.
    -I applied to be on a reading/review committee with a 2-year commitment.
    -I accepted a position on a non-profit board of directors.
    -I passed my second of three probationary performance evaluations (new hire) and heard Very Nice Things from both of my bosses.

    Also, can I just say how much I am liking Lyft? I’ve never lived anywhere that I could call a taxi and have it show up soon/now or even reliably at a preappointed time, and as a non-driver who is perpetually late, there have been MANY times where I wish I could have thrown money at that problem. ($5 to get to work on time and keep my boss off my back? Sure.) For a Silicon Valley/Bay Area native, I am a remarkably late adopter of apps, and much of the new shut-in economy is/has been beyond my budget. But Lyft and Munchery are helping me keep it together as an Adult. At least this week.

  140. Charlatan*

    I work for a municipal government in North Carolina. Once a year the elected officials and a small group of staff hold a three day offsite planning session. In previous years I was an exempt employee and didn’t have to worry about my hours. I recently became nonexempt and now I’m not sure how to categorize the hours I’ll have to work.

    This session runs Friday through Sunday. We rent rooms, work in a conference center and spend meals and social time together. We generally start at 7 or 8 am and work through until 7 or 8 pm. After that it’s a few hours of social time, and then everybody heads off to their rooms. I don’t have to socialize but it’s understood to be an important part of the whole weekend (building relationships, especially with the newly elected folks who don’t know/trust staff yet).

    I’m not sure if I should expect to be paid for the entire weekend, including sleeping and social hours, or some parts of that. HR is looking into this now but I thought I’d see if anyone else has an opinion.

    1. AnotherFed*

      This is definitely a YMMV situation, so it’s good you’ve asked. You should definitely be paid for the clearly work hours (7/8AM-7/8PM), and would not likely be paid for the sleeping time, but the social time is more of a grey area. Since you’re nonexempt, you’d already be racking up a lot of overtime (assuming your job is typically M-F), so I think many workplaces would lean towards not including the extra few hours of socializing, but they could also look at it as the difference between 30 OT hours and 36 OT hours (plus the rental costs, meals, and other expenses) and consider 6 extra hours peanuts compared to the rest of the costs.

  141. Jason*

    So I graduated with a PR degree last year and still haven’t landed a job in that field which is what I’m desperately trying to do.

    Currently I work in a customer service job to pay the bills, and I had one PR internship during school. I’m afraid when I apply to PR jobs I’m not getting picked because I don’t have enough hands on experience.

    Should I continue applying to entry level jobs or try for an internship again? I mean I need to work full time to pay the bills that’s why I took this customer service job. Is it possible working in customer service could be seen as a PR skill? I’m unsure of what direction I should take. Thank you.

    In my spare time I write entertainment blogs and do YouTube videos. Should I make that known as well?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Have you considered working in admissions? You might be a good candidate for an admission associate or assistant director of admission job at a small private high school or K-8. And, yes, definitely include writing for entertainment blogs and YouTube videos!

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’ve never worked in sales before, but there are salesy aspects to admission work. It’s a lot about getting the word out there about your school, really getting to know the school and what makes it unique, and then trying to find students/families who are a good fit for the school and making them aware it’s a good fit for them, too.

          If you’re interested in working in admissions at an independent school, I’d recommend signing up with multiple recruitment firms (they are not exclusive) like Carney Sandoe, CalWest, and Southern Teachers, and also just checking out the NAIS jobs website. Most of the major hiring happens in the January-April months for the following summer/fall.

  142. FiveWheels*

    I may be way too late to the thread but this is worth a try…

    To:Dr – I’m friends with my boss. Our boundaries are non existent.

    Lately he is a terrible boss as well as a terrible friend.

    How do I extricate myself? I love my job but mainly I love it because I work for a friend… But I don’t know how to extricate myself without destroying the friendship.

    Also right now I am slightly drunk.

    1. afiendishthingy*

      If he’s a terrible friend, is destroying the friendship such a terrible thing? Sounds like it’s well on its way there already, and like it will almost definitely be destroyed if you continue working for him.

      1. FiveWheels*

        When he’s not intolerable he’s a lot of fun.

        Wine, logic, emotion, money and work should not be mixed.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          Hmm. Well, hard to tell from the information you’ve provided, but you’re definitely going to need to pull away at least a little. And if he can’t handle you getting another job you’re better off not having him as a “friend.” Definitely go search the Captain Awkward archives, and remember that YOU are not creating an uncomfortable situation by standing up for what you need – it’s already an uncomfortable situation.

  143. Growingn Pains*

    My manager stopped by my desk today to tell me that I will be salaried starting Monday. I wasn’t sure how to react.. so I tried to remain neutral. To be honest, I’m a little bummed because I do a lot of overtime and now I won’t get overtime pay. There are upsides I’m sure..

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      You have to lay out some ground rules here with your boss- there is more to going from non-exempt to exempt than just being salaried. You guys should discuss the type of hours your boss needs you to be working- if you’re doing tons of overtime, your salary really should take that into account. Your boss shouldn’t just say “BOOM. SALARIED” based on your previous hourly rate if in fact you regularly do overtime- it would be a significant change in your pay.

    3. Lindsay J*

      Depending on what your job is, your boss may not be able to do that.

      (I’m assuming you’re in the USA and the issue is between being exempt [not eligible for overtime] and non-exempt [eligible for overtime] since you mention not getting overtime. Some people are salaried non-exempt [so you would have a base salary for up to 40 hours and get overtime pay for any hours over 40] but that’s pretty rare.

      Your job has to fit certain criteria in order to be classified as exempt. Commissioned sales people can be exempt. And some IT people like sys-admins who make more than $27.63 an hour or $455/week. Or if you’re in management or a high level employee expected to make a lot of high-level independent judgments on a daily basis.

      If you’ve been classified as hourly/non-exempt previously there’s a good chance that your job might not fit the salaried/exempt criteria.

      I’ll link the DOL website with this information below.

  144. Tugba Ozedirne*

    I recently referred someone for a position at my company. I checked in with the recruiter after 2 weeks to ask about the status and she said she would get back to me. It’s now been 2 months without an update. Is it alright to check in with the recruiter again?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Sure, but I’d say this is the last time you should do it. Check in and then if she says she’ll get back to you, let it drop because she’ll either do it or not and it’s better not to look as though you’re bugging her.

    2. Colette*

      I’m kind of torn – there’s really no need for the recruiter to keep you in the loop. She should be keeping the candidate informed, but you’ve already done your part. I think it would be fine to ask of you run into her in the hallway, but going out of your way to follow up seems unnecessary.

  145. Ruffingit*

    It is seriously annoying when my co-worker tells me Thursday afternoon that she’ll be out on Friday. I have no issue with her using her vacation days, but a little notice would be helpful because it means I have to do all the work on Friday. If I know a few days in advance, I can stay late a day or two so Friday isn’t a horror show.

  146. Ruth (UK)*

    gah! I’m a bit late but I have a question!!! You know the letter earlier this week where the OP’s manager wanted to make them write the same sentence 500 times as ‘punishment’?

    Do they need to be paid for that time? In my mind, they should. It’s work being set for them by their boss (whether it’s useful to the boss or not.. the boss still set it). It’s clearly a work task, not some outside-work thing and if it’s not optional… if they have to do it… then surely it should be treated as work?It’s something their manager told them to do which they have no choice over, and is completing (useless) work.

    If this is indeed so, then if it was me, I’d just do it on company time and bloody take my time over it and not give a damn. (I’m hourly paid and kinda naturally assuming this person is too unless I hear otherwise?) Am I missing something?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      If they’re non-exempt yes they have to be paid. If they’re exempt then they get paid the same no matter when they do it.

      Either way they need to find a new job.

    2. Ruffingit*

      I’m with you. I’d argue to the death that I should be paid for something so ridiculous. I’d also start job searching like no tomorrow regardless because if the boss was serious about that “punishment” there are way too many issues at that job beyond the idiotic and disrespectful consequence of writing some sentence 500 times.

  147. West Coast Reader*

    Late to the game…

    I just returned back to Canada after being abroad for 9 months. I’m applying for temporary jobs as I’m not sure what I want to do next. For a few jobs, I don’t know what to say in the cover letter about why I want to work there. For me, if it’s full-time, temporary, close to transit and I’m qualified, then I’m applying.

    An example is a junior accounting assistant role where I would be entering data and doing admin work. It doesn’t require an accounting degree, and I’ve done some bookkeeping duties at my last job. I don’t want to go into accounting…it’s just a job that fits my needs, that’s honestly why I’m applying. Should I just say I enjoyed the bookkeeping duties and want to explore accounting as a career? Thoughts?

    1. Colette*

      So you’d be equally happy digging ditches, caring for children, bookkeeping, or being a cashier as long as it’s full time, temporary, and close to transit?

      I suspect that’s not actually the case.

      I don’t think you should lie about wanting it as a career – but I think something like “I’ve done this type of work in the past and want to stick with something familiar while I adjust to life in Canada” is honest and explains why you’re interested.

      1. West Coast Reader*

        You’re absolutely right. Thank you for the input. :) Now to add something along those lines and send my application off!

  148. Molly*

    My sister has an interview next week for a role in sales support. She was told she’d be meeting with 2 people and then she would have an hour for an “assignment”, for which they said she doesn’t need to prepare. She wants to know if it’s appropriate to ask them more about what it might be. I’m leaning no, since I figured it would look like she’s trying to cram – any other opinions on that?

    1. Ruffingit*

      I wouldn’t ask them anything because they’ve already said she doesn’t need to be prepare. Asking risks her annoying them.

  149. Thing 1*

    So I have a rant:

    I work for an institutional pharmacy (provides medications to nursing homes and other similar facilities) in the Philadelphia area. We have many clients in the city, including at least one in Center City that’s inside the “traffic box”. It is now less than a week until the Pope-pocolyse shuts down most of the city. Do we have any kind of plan to deal with this? Of course not! My manager only just got around to asking everyone scheduled to work that weekend whether they were anticipating commute problems yesterday. (About half the staff said yes – surprise!) So I don’t know what’s going to happen or how we’re supposed to get meds to these facilities. I suspect at this point the answer is going to be at least in part to wing it and see what happens. All I know is that I guarantee this is going to wind up becoming my problem at some point since I may well be the only person on first shift able to get into work, and also that this company should not be the least bit surprised that all their techs keep quitting. (I should be hearing back about a really excellent position soon – fingers crossed!)

  150. Steve G*

    New company, new challenges……

    While my previous company highly valued advanced Excel and VBA-ing things, getting projects started here is proving to be a problem. The main issue is that the owners of the work in its current form took the news that I would be helping them as a sign that their jobs are in danger. One of the meetings was quite awkward. At past co, I sat in many meetings while people talked about what calculations/graphs/info they needed and came back in a week or so with a sheet/model. I thought I was walking into a similarly nonchalant meeting, but the person has a REAL resistance to sharing anything. Frankly, his work is disheveled and his boss was talking over my head (I wish I was allowed to step out!) about how this person isn’t doing good in core parts of his job because he is a slave to this unwieldy, time consuming reporting method. They clearly are telling him to let it be automated because he is getting more work soon, but he thinks he is being fired.

    I would sympathize if I was automating something for someone who wanted to do it themselves, and/or if they would be bored without the work. But frankly, when I found out that both were offered free Excel courses but declined because they didn’t want to study on their own time (when do they think other people take courses?), I kind of lost sympathy. And both of these people are doing rote stuff in Excel that is highly repetitive and VBA-able, AND they have more, new work coming this month (work that makes them look more valuable in front of management), so there is NO reason to pushback.

    And I know people here are a proponent of earphones at work, but how do people work wearing them for 8hrs/day everyday? I work between a few offices and in one the other day everyone has earphones in ALL DAY. One was watching TV on her phone. NO ONE talks. I’m sorry, but this is not a great environment to be in. Even being new, I’ve uncovered operational and system errors and a lower than expected level of system and industry knowledge. I think this comes partially from the fact that everyone isolates themselves with their own music/tv/podcasts. There is no shouting across the room “look at this weird thing going on with this account,” or “did you hear (regulator) is proposing a new crazy rule!” Talking out loud is considered “rude” in that office. There are silos of information even in the same room, it is kind of sad.

    1. AnnieNonymous*

      I work remotely 4 days a week. On my one in-office day, I usually keep one earbud in so I can listen to music but also easily hear my manager. I’m used to working quietly on my own, and in general it’s just a very nice, calm environment.

      IMO people shouting across an open plan office isn’t normal or positive. If that just happens to be something that energizes you, fine, but be aware that most people don’t like it or work well in it.

      1. Ruffingit*

        I agree that shouting across the office would not be the most comfortable thing for people. But I get Steve’s point too because there’s a middle ground between working in the morgue and working on the NYSE floor. I worked in an office once that was very much like Steve describes – so quiet all the time. Talking was basically prohibited. It was rough. All day just sitting there, not saying anything to anyone. It was like being in solitary confinement.

        1. Steve G*

          That’s how I feel. Also, most of the people in that office are early 20s, and I think its a shame that they don’t socialize with eachother. I am still friends with people from my first job, the bond of going through s*** together was just so strong.

    2. So Very Anonymous*

      I get what you’re saying! I’m in a similarly siloed-within-same-room environment, and I’ve definitely encountered low levels of system/industry knowledge and people checking out (watching videos etc.). I’ve had the sense that people don’t talk to each other because they don’t want to give away that they don’t know very much. Meetings are just announcements with almost no discussion. It’s been a source of constant frustration to me because I always learn something from hearing about what other people are doing, even if it’s just “man, I got this crazy question earlier today” or “hey, I tried this new thing in a training session today and it went great!” It’s really made me think more about how much you learn just from workplace conversations (like what you’re describing). Maybe not necessarily shouting across the room, but I get what you mean about what you lose when people don’t talk at all. Find the people who do like to talk?

      1. Steve G*

        That’s what I am noticing here. Whenever earphones come up, people get somewhat defensive and say “well I do it and I work great and it is my right to wear them.” I’m not questioning your situation or rights – I am actually curious how people physically handle it, because it would bother my ears and would be distracting to me to have to find enough material to listen to that wouldn’t disrupt work.

        However, I’ve noticed that a lot of the people in this particular office aren’t stellar at their jobs, and I can’t help but notice they are very focused on their digital devices, not work. They know the “what” but they don’t know the “why” or “what do I do if the usual “what” doesn’t work.” So there work looks more like endless mouse clicks and formatting easy reports – both things, frankly, that I am in a position to automate myself, and work with an IT company to automate in the near future. The work content is going to change and focus more on account retention and analyzing profitability by account and handling one-off situations that get tabled now, and we are going to need people to think outside of the box. There aren’t going to be repetitive tasks where you can zone out and listen to music and go through 20, 40X of the same thing.

        1. So Very Anonymous*

          Well, I listen to a lot of ambient music, which gives me a kind of quiet, predictable background. We have someone who makes loud bodily noises a lot, and since there’s often no other workplace noise for that to blend into, I really need the earbuds. Also, because it’s so deathly silent, any conversation echoes through the whole suite. We aren’t doing repetitive work (well, I’m not, I can’t speak for others– my work involves a lot of writing), but for me, I really need predictable noise or white noise to concentrate. In my case it’s more like a student writing while listening to classical music. Dead silence creeps me out and the right ambient music or warm white noise sort of warms things up for me.

          I’ve basically figured out who the other extroverts are and strike up conversations with them when I can. I have three colleagues who are great for bouncing ideas off of, but too much conversations with them and there’s throat-clearing, deep sighs, etc. So, there’s leaving the area to get coffee. That said, there are all kinds of things going in weird directions because people just will. not. talk. to each other, to the point that in my department, we now have to submit little stories about our work so that management can share “what we do” with other departments, because we now have a reputation for not doing anything. Can’t help but think that if people, y’know, talked with other people about work stuff, we wouldn’t be having to do that. (Unless, of course, people aren’t actually doing work stuff…?)

        2. Wanna-Alp*

          Your perspective on earbuds is very different from mine. I need to have them in so that I can concentrate enough to get my work done. The office noise is what’s distracting and disruptive to work, whether it’s conversations going on, someone drumming their fingers on the desk, someone chewing a biro, someone clicking the end of a pencil, someone talking to themself as they work…. oh the list is endless!

    3. afiendishthingy*

      Yeah, my office gets boisterous to the point of super distracting sometimes, but I would hate for it to be silent all the time.

    4. Rebecca*

      I just have to put in my two cents! I also get sick and tired of people who are offered training in Excel and who just say “I can just ask someone else for help” or “if I need help, you can show me”. Ugh! I am not the trainer, and I have my own work to do, so putting my stuff aside because you are too lazy to learn a simple thing that takes 5 minutes irritates me.

      And earbuds or earphones? I share an office with another person, and never use them when she is there. If she’s on vacation or out for a few hours, OK, but not while she’s there. I would feel like I was purposely ignoring her. But maybe that’s just me.

      1. Steve G*

        I don’t even totally mind that they turned down free training…but then don’t get defensive or whatever when your boss gets someone involved to help in the area where you chose not to be trained. If it doesn’t interest you, fine, but then be professional and accept help when the boss is telling you that someone with more training in the area would be doing it better.

        The reporting method in that area now is a bunch of copy/pastes and hand calculations of things, which is fine, but the content is repeating what is already on other sheets, i.e., it is automatable. The manager wants them to focus on getting the reports done quick, then looking into why certain metrics are low, but now, they just have the time to do the actual reports. There are new products coming down the line and the reporting routine needs to get done separately for each product, i.e., soon all of these people are going to be doing lots of OT unless the way the work is done is changed. I’m thinking s*** might need to hit the fan before these people accept help.

    5. AnotherFed*

      I am a huge proponent of listening to music at work. Our office norms are to say “knock knock” and tap the cubical wall to get someone’s attention (vibration more than noise), and anyone who needs to just randomly stop by and talk knows to do that. Music is one thing, but videos/TV and even podcasts (assuming you’re interested in the discussion and not using it as background noise) sounds like a bridge too far at work – shouldn’t they be paying attention to what they’re doing, not watching TV?

      I never get 8 hours or even 4 hours straight to just work on something, so right now an environment where everyone left me alone to get stuff done sounds like heaven! I’ve got some looming deadlines that mean I’m working this weekend to get things out the door on time, because on weekends there’s no one there to interrupt!

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        I should make clear that I am interrupted constantly by emails from students/faculty and do a lot of training — I only sometimes have long stretches to work, but I always have earbuds in at my desk, and so does everyone else.

    6. Graciosa*

      I think the individuals you mentioned could use some change management training, or possibly “Who Moved My Cheese?”

      There may not be much you can do to help them. Their manager needs to be very explicit – there will still be work for you to do – and it’s even more interesting / visible /valuable – but you can’t do it until we automate this process. If you can’t get on board with that, your jobs will be in jeopardy.

      Again, this is a managerial conversation – I’m sorry you’re stuck in the middle. It must be very frustrating.

  151. New To Management*

    Well I am very late to the party today but hoping a few people are still around to give some advice.

    On Wednesday I had a meeting with my boss and he expressed that his current plan for me is to become the manager of everyone with the same job title as me, by the end of the year. We all currently report to my boss individually. I would still report to him, but I would have 2-3 people reporting to me and be managing them and their workloads (we are a very small company).

    I am excited about this opportunity but I am also very worried. I have no management/team lead experience. Reading AAM has been helping me understand what makes a good manager, but does anyone have other recommendations for books/websites/etc. that I can start reading and looking into? I am somewhat new to the workforce (only 4 years out of college) and want to make sure I don’t do a disservice to the people that will be reporting to me.

    Thanks!

    1. NicoleK*

      I went out and bought several management books when I became manager. I wished I would have found this site before I spent money on books that are now gathering dust. My suggestion is to find a mentor or a consultant. I found that to be especially helpful.

  152. InterviewFreeZone*

    I’m late to this thread because today’s been crazy but I’m looking forward to spending a few hours before bed reading!

    After last week’s sad when I had to decline a job offer, I heard back from a job that I really thought was a reach for me for round 2. It’s one of those interview situations where a second round is dependent on a project you have to complete. Talk about terrible timing! I have a major, major project coming up at work in October and this week officially marked the beginning of 8am-1am workdays leading up to when we hit the road for the final project in 4 weeks. It’s been so hard to find the time. I’m dedicated my whole day tomorrow and most of Sunday to it, so hoping that’s enough to pull something great together! Are other people noticing a trend in asking candidates to do projects? How did you handle it if you had a really significant workload at the time?

    1. I'm a Little Teapot*

      *goggles*

      They want you to do a whole project? Are you sure this isn’t a scheme to get free consulting out of applicants? (That’s often been mentioned in previous posts about such situations.)

      1. InterviewFreeZone*

        Funny you should ask! I just did a site search and found the post about the free web design from a few years back and started to wonder. For the job I was offered a few weeks ago, they did ask me to create a plan for the second round and then walk them through it. I believe that was the deciding factor. They left most of it up to me, just what I would do in the position. It only took me maybe 2 hours to complete.

        For this position, I had only a phone interview (which I really, really enjoyed and was impressed with), and then sent very instructions for this assignment. It’s hard! I think I’m going to complete it mostly because it’s related to a cause that’s important to me and I’ve been enjoying the research and writing it, but I’m definitely now a little concerned. I’m in the non-profit world and I really hope this isn’t them ripping off my work.

  153. Blank Stare*

    Does anyone have advice on how to get over rejection for an internal position?

    My boss was the one who told me about an open internal position within our department & said if I applied they would have nothing but good things to say about me considering how well I’ve performed in my current role. The position was definitely a step up & I met the qualifications listed. I submitted my cover letter/resume & had my interview w/two higher ups, both who knew me beforehand. Both said they were extremely impressed w/the cover letter/resume, & the big boss was particularly interested with my experience from another (larger) company that he/she wasn’t aware of beforehand because it would play a pretty significant role in the open position. The company is growing & they did mention there would be additional opportunities in the future.

    Half of the interview was about the open position, the other half was getting my feedback on ways to make my current position more efficient (we have very outdated systems/procedures). Regarding my current position, I made sure to give constructive criticism (no venting obviously) & provided evidence on some things that I’ve tweaked to make certain aspects of my job more productive. Additionally, the interview went longer than the allotted time due to questions/explanations on their end, not mine. After the interview, one manager who interviewed me said he/she was really impressed & that it was a great interview. Sent out thank you emails the next day and all that jazz. A few days later, my boss told me he/she received great feedback regarding the interview (“blew their minds” was one phrase used) & don’t be surprised if things move quickly. I knew there were other internal candidates as well as external candidates & I anticipated a round two interview, perhaps w/the department VP.

    Round two never happened. Two weeks later my boss let me know that they went w/someone else (an external candidate) but emphasized that there would be more opportunities in the future & that the ones who interviewed me were going to reach out to me to discuss that further (didn’t happen, Batphone must be out of order). I just feel demoralized overall, especially since the majority of people in the department were internal promotions. Why give all this glowing interview feedback – feedback I didn’t ask for – just to reject me? The rejection isn’t what I’m upset about the most – I would have preferred them remaining neutral or not giving any feedback at all about how well I supposedly did in the interview until after they made their decision. “I should be proud about all of the nice things they had to say…”

    Exploring outside opportunities is a no-brainer, but this is still eating at me & starting to affect motivation in other areas (currently slacking off on working out even though I just started working out this summer).

    1. AnotherFed*

      It sounds like they were genuinely very impressed with you – they gave you glowing feedback because of that, and they made sure to pass a message on to you that you’re on their radar for future opportunities – but they’re saying there was someone better for this job right now. Even when you’re a highly qualified candidate, a good hiring pool has several highly qualified candidates, so it’s never a done deal and it just not possible to judge from the outside.

      That sucks to hear, but it does sound like you’ve gotten a lot of visibility and are poised as a good candidate for internal promotion next time or even just a raise. From your description, it sounds like they have you in mind for other opportunities – that’s usually not a ‘tomorrow’ timeframe, but more on order of months. It can be hard to be patient, but if you focus on things you do like right now and remind yourself of why you do what you do, you’ll get through and you’ll have kept up the track record of great performance.

    2. Graciosa*

      This is a hard thing to learn to deal with – it is almost impossible not to take something like this personally, even though that’s what you need to do.

      However the truth is that this result had nothing to do with you – the outcome was determined by not only your performance, but your performance *compared to everyone else in the competition*. An athlete top ranked in their sport and country may lose unexpectedly if the Olympic gold medalist shows up.

      This does not mean that the judges were not wowed. Feedback of the type you received means that you impressed them very much and have an excellent chance at similar positions in the future – remembering that an excellent chance will always be only a chance and the results depend upon the rest of the competition. This factor will always be out of your control, whether you’re applying internally or externally.

      I know a colleague who applied for three management roles and lost out by increasingly smaller margins – until he was the top candidate. His positive attitude even when losing the earlier roles only added to the impression that it was only a matter of time before he moved up – and that he was really “going places” in the company and not going to stop with one promotion.

      Demonstrating resilience is one of the unspoken requirements to move to the very highest levels. This is your opportunity to do it.

      They gave you the feedback to encourage you and bolster your morale. You need to get over the attitude that you would rather not hear anything than find out you were only the silver medalist. I posted below in response to A New Manager below about a situation in which the reaction to losing out on a promotion should (in my opinion) disqualify the individual from the alternative promotion the manager was proposing. You do not want to turn yourself into this person – it’s the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

      I know this is a tough situation – but you have to appear to be tough enough to handle it. Good luck.

  154. LSP*

    Do you bring anything to work on your birthday?

    Mini cupcakes or a bowl of fruit for your team, anything like that? I’m thinking of bringing something small for my bday next month, but just don’t want to come off as too cheesy or anything.

    2. AnotherFed*

      As long as it’s small (don’t bring yourself a multi-level cake with “LSP is the best!!!!”), then that’s a nice thing to do and a good low-key way to celebrate an office birthday – go for it!

    4. Graciosa*

      If I did this (which I do, but not on my birthday) I would not tie it in to my birthday or even mention my birthday.

      I do not want my subordinates wondering if they were supposed to get me something or otherwise remember the occasion. As far as my team is concerned, I do not have birthdays at work. A boss bringing birthday-celebration stuff into the office would make me question her expectations of me, and I am not going to put my team in that position.

      I suppose I might mention it if I didn’t bring anything and it was clear that there was no expectation (mentioning in the afternoon that I would meeting my family for birthday dinner and therefore leaving on time, for example). Mentioning it and bringing food (everyone gather ’round and celebrate me!) would not happen.

      But strong support for not-visibly-birthday-related cupcakes, doughnut holes, fruit, chocolate, muffins – basically anything consumable! ;-)

      1. Graciosa*

        Just to be clear, I was interpreting the reference to your team as an indication that you had a team reporting to you. If you meant colleagues, go for it – none of the above concerns apply. :-)

  155. I Am Seriously Fed Up!!*

    In a conversation about other things, my manager blurted out that our department had been evaluated by the staff we support. I had no idea, and since we don’t get yearly performance evaluations any longer (and haven’t had them for 5+ years), I was excited because I thought just maybe I’d have something to show a hiring manager if I get an interview at another company. It’s been very difficult for me for a year and a half, since I was saddled with another person’s job on top of mine, and the coworkers my manager assigned to help me are overwhelmed themselves.

    She went on to say that I received all top marks, and great compliments. I opened my mouth to say “oh, that’s great to hear!” and she cut me off. What she said next absolutely floored me. “Well, this whole thing is bullshit. Why is it fair to “Jane” that you received high scores and she didn’t? She received some pretty low scores, and she tried to take on more work, but failed. This is just not fair to her. She really tried! I am not going to let management tell me who to move into lower roles and who to fire!”

    I couldn’t even form a thought. I was forced to take on this extra work load, and apparently I succeeded, but “Jane” failed, so me getting good scores isn’t fair to her somehow?

    And suddenly, the meeting we had days ago all makes sense. She had instructed us to provide all the examples of time wasting, unreasonable requests, and issues we have with the staff we support. She’s not going to use the evaluation, instead, she’s going to turn it around as in “well, you said “Jane” doesn’t do this, but here’s what you do in X situation, and it causes her to do her work more slowly” type of thing.

    After working in this mess for a while, I’ve become pretty immune to the nonsense, but this cut me to the bone. I can’t remember the last time I felt so belittled and marginalized by a manager.

    1. Ruffingit*

      GAH! Your manager sucks. Get out as soon as you can. And just know this is her issue. Try and remember that you got positive remarks and that’s a good thing, your support staff thinks you’re awesome so keep that in mind even if your manager is a psycho. Also, once again, GET OUT ASAP! You deserve better.

      1. I Am Seriously Fed Up!!*

        I am looking every day, but the employment situation here is bleak to say the least. I need a job that pays a living wage, and most of them are low paying, part time jobs, or worse, 12 hour a day factory jobs, and I’m really not sure physically I could work on my feet for 12 hours per day at my age (over 50). But there are some rays of hope here and there, so I have my resume ready, references lined up, and my interview suit is pressed and ready to go!

    2. Could be anyone*

      The manager is an idiot on multiple levels. But she may just shoot herself if she actually tries to blame the the other staff. She certainly will make enemies. Oh and the days of rewarding effort usually end before 3rd grade.

  156. NickD*

    I missed getting to post yesterday, but maybe someone will see this today!

    I’m wondering if anyone has advice on changing your career field without taking a HUGE pay cut. I’m looking to move out of my regulatory field but I can’t afford a $10-20K/yr pay cut. I’d like to move into community health work (or a couple of other things) and I think I have some great skills to go that route and am working on my masters in public health. I don’t think (although that may just be arrogant) that the only things I’m qualified for are entry-level positions but I’m at a loss of how to present myself to get looked at for other fields. I live in an area where regulators aren’t exactly looked on warmly (heaven forbid EPA does anything at all and I’m their local counterpart) and my boss is driving me (and EPA) up the wall. Last week he went to a conference half way across the country and didn’t bother to tell anyone in our department that he was going to be out of the office at all. That’s pretty typical behavior.

    Any words of wisdom?

    1. Colette*

      Well, experience in another field doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t have to start in an entry level position, since your experience may not be relevant. It may help you advance faster, though.

      That doesn’t mean you don’t have transferable skills, but industry knowledge is important, too. Have you talked with people in the field you want to move into to ask them what they think?

      If you decide you want to move, could you make different financial choices to be able to afford a pay cut?

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I’m pursuing an MPH now, and while I’m definitely entry-level compared to you in the workforce, I think you could start somewhere higher. Environmental health and regulations play a huge part in public health, and I think there are a lot of places to start with that knowledge that aren’t necessarily entry-level. Did you want to keep in line with environmental health-type research relating to community health or programs to that effect, or move into a completely different part of public health?

  158. Anonymerp*

    Non-profit/human services/social work-related readers, please fall in, because I am at the end of my rope and need some advice. (Daily long crying jags are probably the point where you need help, right?)

    Where are all the actual entry-level positions? I have had a BSW for three years now and I’m still working at a call center. I can’t find anything that doesn’t want you to have a degree plus three years post-degree working with x population. How am I to get that experience if no one is hiring without experience? I’m in the last year of my MSW because a lot of positions require one, but all of those positions require the same thing. I’m starting to really believe I’ll be trapped in jobs like the one I have now forever and that I’ve gone to school for nothing. I can’t leave to look elsewhere, either – my SO won’t relocate out of the state because their one remaining parent is not in good health and they need to be close by, and even if I could I can’t afford to take time off of work, travel and book hotels for interviews on what I make now. I can’t even really afford it inside the state. I definitely can’t afford to take an unpaid internship.

    Am I looking for the wrong things? Should I just give up and expect that I’ll want to stop existing every morning as soon as I wake up?

    1. NicoleK*

      In my area, there are many entry level social service positions. However, that might not be the case in your area. So here are my suggestions. Even if the job posting says x years of experience, don’t let that discourage you, please still apply. Experience is just one consideration. Hiring Managers look at other things too besides experience. Also you can volunteer or find a part time position to give you experience. And lastly, you seemed pretty discourage now. That sense of desperation and hopelessness may come through in your interviews, so perhaps you could spend some time focusing on projecting positivity outward (if you don’t have it, fake it until you do). Good luck!

        1. Anonymerp*

          Did they hire you when you ignored the hard requirement, though? These posting say you MUST HAVE x experience, and yes, it usually is in all caps.

          1. NicoleK*

            Yes, I have gotten interviews and job offers even when I didn’t have exactly what was posted in the ad. But I should note that the positions were entry level direct service positions.

          2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

            Especially since sometime what HR insists on putting in the job description does not equal what the hiring manager actually wants/cares about.

    2. Hunting*

      I’m hunting for MSW positions too, newly post-grad. Just wanted to commiserate on how hard it is to job hunt when a lot of your identity is wrapped up in your job! It sounds like you’ve been working full-time in something you don’t love, all while going to grad school and taking care of family- that’s exhausting!

      -Start making an expansive list of places you’d like to work for. Somewhere on your county’s website, there’s usually a page of mental health and social services providers (or whatever particular kind of SW you’re looking for). While Indeed, Idealist, NPO.net, and other large search engines are great, I see that a lot of non-profits don’t upload their positions, and you have to check individual websites for job postings.

      -I’m not sure why you’re not seeing anything at all entry-level in your area. Can you ask your current field supervisor/professors/connected classmates/alumni for thoughts about how they landed their first job in the field? For many of my classmates, BSW & MSW internships were sufficient work experience for a lot of case management positions. Don’t be deterred by the “wish list” postings that ask for everything- try to get to the interview stage to see what’s actually negotiable. Case management in social services and sometimes sliding scale therapy clinics (social services or hospital-based) usually require the least amount of licensure; in-patient hospitals & VAs, the most.

      -Can you talk up the local contacts through your field positions and your professors? If you have classmates working in interesting positions, can lean on them- maybe see if their mentor or supervisor is willing to have an informational interview with you?

      -Do you have any state licensure options at this point? Many states have an LSW, or pre-LCSW license that you can sit for as soon as you graduate with an MSW. Could you sit for a CADC/CDP given your current coursework and placement, if you’re interested in substance abuse work at all? Could you go to any weekend trainings to meet people involved in your kind of work? Students usually can get a discount or scholarship, and LCSWs need some CE hours in person, so they have to go somewhere to get them!

      -Know that in 2 years you should have a lot more options with your LCSW. Good luck and please take care of yourself!

      1. Anonymerp*

        The few classmates who socialize and speak to one another (it’s not a tight-knit group) got their jobs through their BSW placements for the most part. I am no longer in the city where I did my BSW placement and there was no job potential in it to begin with (a new resource center with the university I attended – the staff consisted of the coordinator and myself). My professors know where I should be looking, but again, the places I should be looking all want experience. They got their first jobs decades ago and just shrug at me and send me to career services, who ask me if I wouldn’t mind working for a local Bank of America branch, because they’re hiring. (No, I’m not kidding.) My field placement as an advanced standing part-timer doesn’t start until summer. The field placement coordinators won’t even talk to me until spring. Weekend trainings are out of the question, as my employer requires weekend availability. That, and even if I could, they’d cost money I can’t afford to spend.

        I am in a policy/administration-focused program. There is no clinical coursework. I don’t think I can get an LCSW and wasn’t planning on it. I have to find a job. I can’t wait two years to find a job.

    3. Ruffingit*

      I’m in the social work/counseling field and the MSW is going to help you tremendously! Most jobs require that. As for the experience component, your practicum is useful to get you in the field working on the ground while still in school. The 2-3 years experience requirement is usually a “desire” not a hard requirement. Apply at places like psychiatric hospitals because those will get you a ton of experience in a short amount of time. Good luck, I know what you’re facing right now and it’s rough.

    4. A New Manager*

      What state do you live in? The social services field has quite a considerable turnover rate, especially in “protective services” jobs like adult, women, and children protective services, and especially in the entry-level caseworker or case manager jobs. These jobs are almost always hiring for one position or another. In my field, I might look at other stakeholders like being a Court Appointed Special Advocate (CASA), working for a child placement agency, finding social work jobs at hospitals or clinics, or even assistants for attorneys who represent children or families in foster care cases. There are also various therapists who contract with social services who might need some type of assistant in their office. There are also the companies that manage Medicaid that have case management positions. Sometimes getting your foot in the door to build connections and build up a better network of people can go a long way of getting you where you want to be. Good luck!

  159. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

    I’m hoping people have some advice. Is it ever ok to compare yourself to co-workers when making the case for a raise? In this instance, the team just published the productivity reports, and I am clearly producing/achieving much more than my co-workers. Our salary ranges are published, and it’s not exactly a secrete who is paid where on the scale. I’m getting paid close to the bottom while producing double to triple that of co-workers making $15 – 30K more than me. Thoughts?

    1. AnotherFed*

      I think in that case, you’d be comparing your metrics to average metrics for the position, which is a good evidence-based way to say you’re worth more money, but it’s got to be “I produce 50% more teapots than the team average, have above average quality ratings on my teapots, and have done XYZ other awesome things lately” not “I produce 30% more teapots than Clarissa and she makes $10K more than me – that’s not fair!”

      You don’t want to make it about your coworkers (especially not specific ones) because you never can be sure you have all the details of what your coworkers are doing and how your supervisor views their compensation – he or she may be itching for a solid reason to fire Clarissa, may have gotten stuck with her because she’s the boss’ godchild, may have assigned half of a totally unrelated job to her, or think she was great until the aliens started abducting her at night, etc.

  160. Anonyby*

    No advice needed, just a late-posted rant. :)

    The way things are supposed to work is that the agents are supposed to grab one of the admin staff when a copier jams (which means me on the weekends), so we can clear it. Why do they feel the need to try to fix it themselves, not even follow the instructions that the machine gives them for clearing it, and then not say anything to me when they make it worse???? Gah!

    I was only notified when someone ELSE discovered the jam (because they tried to print something afterwards, and saw that the machine was jammed with another item ahead of them in the queue). And then it took careful surgery to extract what was left of pages that had been ripped out of the machine–had to move them closer to the edge with a metal nail file and grab them with tweezers, all without touching the machine.

    Soooo frustrating.

  161. University Teapot Specialist*

    So. I posted for the first time ever about four? five? weeks ago, in preparation for an interview that I would be having in the private sector. Since then, I had my first interview (and was very prepared thanks to scouring this site and reading Alison’s book), a second interview with peers a few weeks later, and was offered the position on Monday. I told my boss on Wednesday that I was resigning, and he came back and matched the salary at the new job.

    I am torn. I see the positives of both. At the private sector job, I will have opportunities to move and grow and travel; at my current job, I have the opportunity to be a change-agent right now and will be able to continue to show my value where I am with some (but less concrete) possibility of learning new things/advancement/etc. I feel kind of like I am giving something up no matter what I do, though I realize it is pretty amazing that two places are offering a significant raise and SOME sort of opportunities beyond the initial assignment.

    Ugh. This should be the happiest week of my life; and, instead, it is so sad! What is a teapot specialist to do!?

    1. NicoleK*

      What was the reason for the job search in the first place? If the reason was solely money, then it might be worth staying. If there were other issues that lead to the job search, a higher salary will not fix those issues.

      1. University Teapot Specialist*

        Yes, that is what I am wrestling with. We are undergoing a period of change right now, and my skills will be helpful to get through that…so, I have the loyalty factor versus what may be better for me long-term. *sigh*

        2. Graciosa*

          I agree with Nicole.

          Do not accept a counter offer.

          Your current boss did not value you enough to seek out a raise for you until absolutely necessary. Whatever problems you had in the work place that caused you to plan to leave will fundamentally remain. Sometimes they get a little better temporarily (Money! Project! “Change Agent!”), but the foundation does not change.

          Your new boss has dismissed his or her other candidates and is relying upon your word that you will join the team. Backing out will burn a bridge you won’t be able to rebuild.

          Remember why you did this – and go as planned.

  162. FootinMouth*

    Sent “Dear John” letter to end workplace friendship

    After a surprising talk about the rumor mill with my supervisor Friday morning, I learned my closest confidant at work betrayed me to the office gossip, who, of course, spread information shared in confidence and added untrue statements to it. This information reached my boss, who then asked me directly about it.

    I explained that part of the information was true and only my confidant and one other person heard it from me. He assured me that the other person didn’t spill the beans and clearly assigned the blame to my work friend.

    For the remainder of the day, I was rattled and unsure of what to do. I gained some perspective Saturday and wrote a “Dear John” letter to my formerly trusted colleague and explained that I needed to professionally distance myself from him because of the comments my boss made.

    I showed appreciation for the work pal’s insight and valuable knowledge and made cutting back on discussions my responsibility because of the rumor circulating. It truly upset me to write the letter, but I believe it’s in the best interest of my work reputation.

    Can anyone offer similar stories of work friendship gone awry?

    1. Graciosa*

      Oh dear.

      I have had work place friendships go awry, but never involving sending a “Dear John” letter to a work colleague.

      This is not what you asked, but I would recommend against writing if you ever have to deal with this again. Doing this in person has the dual benefits of demonstrating your maturity (I am constantly amazed at the lengths to which chronological adults will go to avoid difficult conversations) and not creating a written record.

      Someone who has already betrayed your confidence cannot be trusted to keep private your correspondence – and no matter how beautifully written it was, someone can always find a way to add their own spin to the content (“Can you believe she actually [wrote / thinks / dared to suggest whatever]?”) as they forward it around.

      I am sorry you’re going through this.

  163. Little Teapot, Short and Stout*

    Last week at an interview, someone asked me about the short-term gigs that I have on my resume. Now, I expected that, and I was able to talk about a couple of them pretty easily (one was for a political campaign, the other was an internship).

    Then I got to the point where I talked about the job from which I was fired. I don’t outright use the word “fired.” Instead, here’s what I told the interviewer: (1) That it was not the right fit; (2) The aspects of the job with which I had trouble; and (3) What I learned from that experience.

    I hope I handled that well.

    Other than that, the interview went… actually, I better not jinx anything by saying how it went.

  164. A New Manager*

    Ok, I’ll add one to the mix, although not sure how much response I’ll get since it’s no longer Friday.

    About a month ago, I was promoted to supervisor of the unit I have worked in for the past 2 years, and have had to fill several vacant positions in my unit including the one I worked prior to moving up. My unit is a mix between 2 different jobs within my agency. One is an entry-level position and one is a supervisor-level position that does not have any direct reports (a promotion with a raise). Two of the employees in my unit (I’ll call them June and Rita) applied for the supervisor-level job and I was only able to select one of them – Rita – based on the needs of and the best fit for the job. Since then, June has been very withdrawn and it is very apparent that she is offended and hurt by my hiring decision. Rita has less tenure than June, not only within the unit but within the agency, and Rita would not have even applied if June hadn’t encouraged her to do so since there were 2 vacancies to fill for the same job. Now, June has declined attending any of the unit activities that we have always done (hings like meeting for breakfast every Friday that build group cohesion), and she has even asked me to sign a transfer request to move to another unit if and when the opportunity becomes available.

    What she doesn’t know is, I’m trying to get her moved into a 3rd opening that I recently found out has been reallocated to the office that June and I work in (my unit is spread out in different geographical locations in Texas), but I don’t want to tell her about it yet in case it doesn’t work out the way I want it to. I have to have approval from senior management to move her into the position instead of posting the job (again) and interviewing another pool of candidates, and this process has taken a lot longer than I anticipated. I know she can do the job, and she is a much better fit for this particular position as it deals with a whole different set of people and issues that she has the backbone to handle.

    The problem is, I’m not impressed by the “sore loser” attitude that she is blatantly exhibiting right now and I feel like I need to address it, but I don’t want to do that in a way that will push her even further away. How should I go about addressing the issue of her poor attitude with her without pushing her out the door?

      1. A New Manager*

        I haven’t addressed it so far because I’m still doing my old job, the other vacant spot like my old job, and learning the new duties of my new position. I’m literally doing 3 people’s jobs right now, and part of that includes out of town training for days at a time. This issue has not made it to the top of my priority list so far, but will after this week when my new hiring selections officially start.

        1. Graciosa*

          You have a number of problems here, and June is only one of them.

          You can’t move someone into a position of responsibility who lacks the emotional maturity to deal with disappointment. This kind of behavior – sulking, withdrawal – is not appropriate in the work place at the individual contributor level, much less anything with more responsibility. It sounds like June is making a show with the expectation that you and others will try to appease her hurt feelings (people who really want to just leave will do so without the drama).

          Your next problem is that you are new to your role. You start with a limited amount of good will until you earn more by demonstrating your superior performance, judgment, and value to the company. You are about to spend that good will working to promote someone who is behaving like she’s still in elementary school. Make no mistake, people *will* identify you as the person who promoted her. One of the marks of a good manager is identifying and developing outstanding talent. You are about to fail that test.

          I imagine you’re about to protest that she knows a lot about [whatever] and would be great in the specified role, but that’s not true at this point in time. Maybe it will be someday – with coaching – but that time has not yet come. Even without official direct reports, a supervisor needs to have enough emotional stability to handle other people’s problems (in addition to her own) while always maintaining her cool. June cannot even handle a perfectly normal professional disappointment without regressing to childish sulking.

          Your last problem is that you are feeling too overwhelmed to do your job as a manager. Yes, I do understand that you are legitimately doing the jobs of multiple people (actually, so am I at the moment) but your managerial role needs to come first. There are times when I hate leaving what I’m tempted to call actual work undone so I can handle other aspects of my job – people work and strategy work rather than task work – but the managerial work enables everything else. It is hard to let anything from your former job slip (even harder when you’re recently used to focusing on getting it done at any cost) but that is an important transition to make. Steering the ship is more important than scrubbing the galley.

          As a manager, you need to address June’s attitude *immediately*. You may need to go as far as making it clear that her behavior is causing you to question her suitability for the role to which she aspires (in addition to making it clear that her behavior is not acceptable). Not addressing this is allowing it to get worse – and you need to be very clear about the fact that this kind of attitude from one person will damage the performance of the whole team. Your job is to stop it.

          I realize that you thought there was an easier path to managing your hiring (just promote June without investing the time in another interview process). Interviewing is time consuming – but put your managerial hat on and think about this. You are investing your good will with senior management to put an immature candidate into the position and avoid the work of discovering whether or not there may be better candidates available. This is not what a great manager would do.

          Personally, I would seriously consider cutting my losses and signing the transfer papers without even considering June for the other role. I think she has put herself out of the running with her behavior – but if you do want to consider her, it needs to be after demonstrating a better attitude (without dangling the carrot of a better job – you need real change without bribery) and going through the interview process understanding that it is genuinely competitive.

          Finally, I would suggest you find a good role model or mentor – someone your really respect and admire who also exercises managerial authority – and start thinking about how that person would handle the decisions you face every day. Becoming a manager is a hard transition, and your success or failure is determined by an endless stream of what may appear to be tiny decisions. Every one of them is either building or tearing down your reputation as a good manager and your strength to do the difficult jobs. There are lots of hard conversations and tough decisions, but dealing with them equips you to do it better the next time .

          Good luck –

          1. Nicolette0223@aol.com*

            Hi Graciosa, thank you so much for your response. A couple of things to clarify. First, unfortunately, I do not have the option of not handling the duties of my previous position. I work in a social services field and my job was to locate emergency placements for children in foster care. This is not optional – this HAS to be done, otherwise we have homeless foster children, and this is anywhere between 150-200 children on a monthly basis. Thankfully, 2 of these openings will be filled as of Monday next week so that I can actually start focusing solely on my managerial duties.

            Second, June is, in fact, a very efficient, capable, knowledgeable, and qualified employee who also interviewed less than a month ago for the position I’m looking to move her into, and was the third highest ranked interview I had out of a very recent pool of candidates. I am not moving her into this position because I want to appease her . I am moving her into the position because she is the most qualified candidate for that position. (Background info: My unit is something that people who already work in this agency aspire to move into, and I typically already have people who have demonstrated a high quality of work and professionalism to start with.) June has an outstanding work record and gets outstanding results for the work she currently does, including on-call work for the role she would be moving into. She is also one of the few employees I have not had any personnel issues with apart from this singular issue, nor did the supervisor before me that I replaced have any personnel issues with her. (He is my mentor that I am in contact with on a near-daily basis about various issues that have come up, which I thought I’d mention since that was one of your suggestions.)

            You indicated that if June was really going to leave, she would just leave without the drama. The issue with that is, she is currently in an Master’s Degree educational program offered through our agency which required her to commit not only the years she spends going through school working for our agency but also as many years as it took for her to complete the program after she finishes. She just started that program this semester, so she cannot just quit the job without having to pay back a significant amount of money for school. Her only other option is to transfer to a different position, and she has already put in her transfer request. In other words, she did exactly what you said – she decided to just leave without a considerable amount of drama.

            The thing is, she really hasn’t caused much drama. I doubt anyone even notices other than me that she has withdrawn. She continues to come in every day and do her work, talk to her coworkers as she always has. She just declines to attend these group activities that she always used to attend with us, and these are by no means mandatory to attend if anyone has something else going on. I will also say that she doesn’t just not show up for these either. She does let me know that she won’t be able to make it due to x, y, and z. I can tell she feels awkward and uncomfortable around me now, based on the conversation we had when I let her know she was not selected for either of the 2 positions we just filled and another conversation she and I had the following business day after that conversation, followed by another conversation with her asking me to sign her transfer request (which I did). She has not been rude or made any inappropriate comments. It is just in her body language and the obvious withdrawal from unit activities that she used to be pretty involved in.

            Your comments have been very helpful, and I do appreciate your input. It looks like I will have some time today to bring her in and talk to her.

  165. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I have a(nother) work-related question:

    besides deciding between a Senior Teapot Writer role that pays 10% more than my current role, versus
    role (through vendor with my company that has 50% chance of happening and may or may not involve what I like doing aka writing)….

    What is the significance (or lack thereof) of having “Senior” attached to a “Teapot Writer” role? The offer I got was only 10% more than what I’m making (not exceptional pay, but still decent). Is it (as my mom believes) a way to appease the younger folk by giving them sardine-type income with a champagne-fancy title?

    (Thoughts?)

    1. Graciosa (tempted to call herself Rockapella)*

      The value of “Senior” in a title is going to depend upon the company and the culture. At mine, this is a big deal and comes with significant additional authority, but that may not be universal. You know better than your mother how your industry will view the new position.

      Speaking of which, do not listen to your mother about your career. Her theory, as you report it, is a bizarre one. A 10% raise is a solid one, and there are lots of positional jumps where it is definitely within the good-acceptable range. I have heard of people being appeased with a new title (not in my company where it’s not possible, but I have heard of it) however such titles are not accompanied by 10% raises!

      Also, Senior Teapot Writer is not a “champagne title.”

      C-suite titles are champagne titles. VP titles can be champagne titles (depends on company). Senior Teapot Writer does not qualify. This is not meant to be offensive, but more to demonstrate that your mother appears to be out of touch with the work place.

      Do not listen to her.

      Especially do not listen to her as she describes your new salary with a 10% bump as “sardine-type income.”

      You may listen to her if she tells you how wonderful your new job is, how fantastic your raise is, and how well you’re doing in your career. Anything celebratory of your achievement (and this IS an achievement) deserves open ears.

      Ignore anything else.

  166. SweetTeapots*

    Long shot that anyone is still checking this thread, the day before the next Friday thread but, worth a shot.

    I live an hour from the closest major metro without traffic, 2 with. My job is a bit niche in that most available positions are primarily in the metro area, but I currently have a job in my field in my hometown that I’m looking to leave. I originally was not open to the metro area but I think I might have to be.

    I’m only willing to consider a job in the metro that allows for remote work, either full time or part time, with being allowed a later shift (10am) on non remote days, I did that commute for 3 years and can’t go back to it. It’s a big hub with a lot of big name companies that are leading the trends of great benefits you typically hear about, so remote is not unheard of in this field but I’m not encountering a lot of roles that specifically state the position allows for remote. Is this something you would bring up on initial contact, or not until reaching an offer stage? And how would you phrase it? I obviously have much less leverage with roles I’m not actively recruited for.

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