open thread – November 20, 2015

by Alison Green on November 20, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers. Also…

Site enhancement!

Lots of you have asked for the site to remember whether you had comments collapsed or expanded, so that if they’re collapsed, they stay that way even when you reload the page. We now have that functionality if you want to use it: At the top of the comment section, there’s an option to check a box for “collapse comments site-wide.”

However, there’s a drawback: If you collapse comments site-wide and then you leave a reply to someone else’s comment, when the page reloads (after you submit the comment), it won’t take you back to your comment; it will just take you to the top of the post and you’ll have to scroll down to find where you were. It can’t take you back to a mid-thread comment because in the collapsed format, those aren’t visible.

Because of that, I’ve made it optional. If you don’t mind that side effect, you can check the option to have the site remember your preference. (And if you change your mind, just uncheck that box.) Feedback welcome!

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{ 1,129 comments }

{ 1,129 comments… read them below }

  1. Finding a Name*

    I could use some advice.

    I have a second interview for a job on Wednesday, and I think I’m competitive for the position (obviously nothing is guaranteed, but I think there is only one or two other finalists.) But I’m really not sure if I want the job. I’m still interested enough to go to the interview, but every time I think about this job, I get a nervous/panicked feeling, and there are some issues that make me think I wouldn’t be happy there. Former colleague who works there is unhappy, and as said it hasn’t got a great atmosphere, not sure if the job is the direction I want to be going in, and I’m not sure if I want to stay in the country I’m currently in or if I’d rather return to my home country. But I think I’m also a bit burnt out right now, and there are no jobs that seem to be appealing to me at the moment, (except the one I saw today for a head chocolate taster, which unfortunately only pays chocolate, and not that much chocolate either).
    So, I’m thinking if I was offered it, I would turn it down. But I’ve never turned down a job before! Every before I’ve been offered a job, I’ve been happy to accept it. I don’t think the idea that someone wouldn’t accept a job they’d been offered had ever occurred to me until I started reading this site. And with my current job ending soon, I’m worried I’m crazy to turn down a job, and that if I turn this down I will never get a job again in my field, or in any field, and will spend the rest of my life on unemployment. But if I do take it, I think I’d be miserable.

    So, does anyone have any tricks on how I can reassure myself that turning down a job that makes me feel super stressed every time I think about it permanently destroy my career? Or is this something I should consider more seriously, because it is still hard to find jobs and I might struggle to find another one if I don’t take this one?

    1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

      If you’re offered the position is it a field that you could shadow in for a couple of hours? It’s some-what common in healthy care but I’m not really sure how it works in other fields. I’m also not sure when you would ask about shadowing, maybe someone else can chime in on how it works?

      1. Winter is Coming*

        Finally…open thread. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist, I remember you writing in a few weeks back about what happened at your job. What ever became of that? I’ve been worried about you!!

    2. Dan*

      Keep in mind that you’re writing to a US-based site with US-centric views. Your references to “stay in the country I’m in or return to my home” indicate that at least some advice that you get here may not be relevant as it’s tailored to US norms. So my take may not be relevant.

      You write that you have a job ending soon. If you had lots of interviews or offers out the ying yang, you could afford to be picky. Or, if you could keep your current. But, you say that you really don’t have any other irons in the fire, so if you turn this job down, how long are you going to be out of a job before finding another one? The longer you are on the market, the harder it’s going to be to find something. And I worry that you’d be on the market for quite awhile.

      While I think your worst case scenario is rather extreme, I do think you could be in for a rough ride. Consider this new job more seriously.

    3. fposte*

      Can you articulate to yourself what you’re looking for that would allow you to take the job? Salary, benefits, quantifiable workplace conditions? A good feeling based on the interview? Is the only thing you like about it the fact that they seem to like you?

      Right now you’re talking about whether or not people can ever turn down jobs without regard to this *particular* job and whether it would be right to accept it or turn it down. Sure, people turn down jobs all the time; it’s not like tweaking the nose of the great job karma god or anything. But what about *this* job makes you not want it or could make you want it?

    4. Devil's Avocado*

      I vote take the second interview. Raise some of your concerns in the interview (in a non-accusatory, well thought out way, obviously), and see how they respond to that. That will give you more data with which to make your decision. Trying to make a decision now is premature and a recipe to drive yourself nuts – you don’t have all the info, and you haven’t event been offered the position yet, so there is nothing to turn down.

      Also, if you do end up getting the offer and turning down the job, it’s much less traumatic than you think. I’ve done it – it was was 3 minute phone conversation. I was super candid about my concerns (mostly commute related – it was in a new city and when I applied I didn’t yet know where in the city I would be living). The hiring manager thanked me, and it was all very nicey-nice.

      1. Jules the First*

        I vote take the second interview. When I interviewed for my current job, I thought I was nuts (let’s just say the company has a reputation!). When I accepted it, I spent about three days sitting on my living room floor going ‘OMG, I can’t believe I’m going to take the job. Am I nuts?’. When I told my coworkers where I was going, the response ranged from ‘Are you crazy?’ to ‘That’s a stupid idea’ to ‘Better you than me’.

        But I took this job because it looks awesome on my resume, it was a chance to formally manage a team, and it was exposure to a radically different type of work than I’d been doing. 18 months later, I’d never say this is my dream job, but I’m reasonably happy and while I’m not saying I wouldn’t take another job if one landed in my lap, I have no regrets over taking this job. I took a job a few years ago that had an amazing reputation as a fantastic place to work and I was absolutely miserable.

        You never know whether an environment is right for you until you see it for yourself – what drives one of your coworkers up the wall, might not bother you at all.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “And with my current job ending soon, I’m worried I’m crazy to turn down a job, and that if I turn this down I will never get a job again in my field, or in any field, and will spend the rest of my life on unemployment. But if I do take it, I think I’d be miserable.”

      Taking this in to bite sized parts- it’s simply not true that you will never find a job in your field or any field every again. That is just. not. true. Take this thought and throw it into the garbage can. Not only does it not help you, it’s a lie, to boot!

      OTH, yeah, you could take the job and be miserable. That could happen. Okay, so what is your plan for that? Suppose you take the job and it’s the pits, what will your next steps be? How will you stand up for YOU? This could be anything, you could decide to take courses in your off hours; you could grab training available at this place or you could decide to continue job searching with the idea that you will do this job for two years and find something else.

      “I might struggle to find another one if I don’t take this one?” I use worst case scenario. So here, I would tell me, “If I do not take this job I WILL have one heck of a time finding another one. Now how will I handle that?”

      Either decision, take the job or don’t take the job involves promising yourself something. And it is hugely important that you follow up on what you promise yourself. Your answer might be which promise to you is easier to keep? Is it easier to keep a promise to yourself to keep looking for work while you are working at We R Miserable, Inc OR is it easier to keep a promise to yourself to find a good job while unemployed?

      There have been times where it was easier for me to stay employed and job hunt. And there were times where it was better for me to be unemployed. So, no one answer fits all here.

    6. A.J.*

      I just went through this very recently. I had never turned down a job before, and I also had a lot of anxiety over feeling that I would never find anything else in my field in my city. And like you, I also got a strange nervousness and panic whenever I thought about taking the job, but I couldn’t quite figure out what was causing that. I listened to my gut and turned it down, and it was just as awkward as I thought it would be but I got through it. Then a week later I was rejected from a better job that I really wanted, and all of a sudden I had a ton of regret over the decision I made. What if I end up on unemployment forever and have to take another contract job? What if I had just taken it and put up with the commute– would things have worked out okay? Now 2 weeks later I’m starting to feel a bit better, as a few new prospects are starting to appear. It may not seem like it at the moment, but there are other jobs out there.
      I don’t know how urgent your situation is, but I can say that it hasn’t been too terrible on unemployment since I can recover from being burnt out at my last job. Its nice to be able to take my time in finding the right job without feeling pressured to take something that isn’t the right fit. Looking back on it, its almost empowering to be able to say that I turned down a job and I’m able to control where I want to be in my future career.

  2. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

    Anyone want an update on my HIPPA violation I’m getting fired saga?
    Back story: if you haven’t been following along 2 weeks ago I accidently violated HIPPA by giving patient A patient B’s lab slip and sending them elsewhere to have it drawn. No blood was drawn and no health was jeopardized. My company takes HIPAA so seriously I was positive I would be fired. May people have been fired for less.
    Last week I reported that I hadn’t been fired or even received the write up.
    Current: So Much- Bear with me.
    Monday was our staff meeting and I asked my supervisor if I could come early to talk about some problems at the office regarding the way that everything was flowing. (its not really something I needed the other phlebs chiming in on) She was receptive to all of the things I said, one of which was a HUGE change that I’ve been suggesting for 4 years that would have prevented the HIPAA violation all together. I figured nothing would come of that particular gripe but I bring it up every 6 or so months. It was implemented the NEXT DAY! During our little 1 on 1 I asked how the “higher ups” were taking my violation and how things were looking. She told me not to worry about that at all and that she hopes it wasn’t weighing on my mind the whole time. I had mentioned something to her the day after it happened but nothing since. On the way home I got to thinkin’. I didn’t write that incident report. I gave my boss all the information and she said that she was going to write it which is fine. Im wondering if it she actually wrote it, we’re really understaffed and replacing me would be difficult. Neither patient knows that anything happened so it would have been very easy and completely legal to brush it all under the rug. She knows that I was upset about the error, I was crying a bit (not obnoxious) toward the end of the conversation, because I knew it was a huge problem. She knows that nothing like this has ever happened with me, I told her 8 days before that something could happen because of the way things are set up/ running at this office, I’m a good, drama free employee and this time is saved my bum.

    On another note, there was a post about a military job yesterday that they couldn’t get anyone to work. It got me thinking- I’d really like a job like that. I cannot join the military as I’ve had weight loss surgery and it’s you can’t get a waver for WLS but something incredibly remote, something that’s a challenge would be perfect for me. Any ideas as to what I should look at? I don’t have children but I am married, Mr.UnfriendlyPhlebotomist would follow me anywhere I told him to so that’s not a problem. I think I should be a tree counter in remote jungles. I’m a really good counter.

    1. Mimmy*

      So glad your employer FINALLY heard your suggestions and implemented the changes. It’s very possible that they HAVE been trying to get the ball rolling but got stuck in red tape.

      Sorry, no advice on the military job, but good luck with whatever you decide!

      1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

        Its really an annoying suggestion, I mention it knowing that she couldn’t really do anything about it. Basically rather than the patients coming directly to my lab it would be so much better if they check out and go to the waiting room, I never have a long wait 15 minutes tops. The orders are never ready and it leaves them just looking at me funny like its my fault because the doctor said they could just come to me. It also causes congestion in the hallway and privacy issues because the next person can see and hear into my lab. We’ve brought it up before and got a lot of push back from the doc and nursing but my boss got her boss to send the email stating that it was they way things were going to be. today its been 100% compliance!

      2. BRR*

        Lesson learned, if you have been pushing for a change to prevent errors, go and make that error to show them why it needs to be changes (I’m joking).

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          I know you’re joking but unfortunately that is the way things have to go sometimes. No one takes it seriously when it’s just a suggestion on a piece of paper or a comment that you bring up every now and then, but when it hits the fan and it becomes obvious that “Oh, we should have done what was suggested to us and this is the exact reason why”, the change gets made.

    2. Random citizen*

      So glad to hear this!! It sounds like your mistake was the impetus your employer needed to make some long overdue changes, and so glad that it sounds like everything will work out with your job! No advice for the remote jobs, though. :(

    4. Development professional*

      There’s lots of international work that isn’t the military that would love to have someone with a science/medical background that you should look at: Peace Corps, USAID, and of the many contractors that do work for USAID (you can google this).

      Also, consider the State Department as a foreign service officer. They are much more receptive/hospitable to career changers and/or people with not totally perfect health and age requirements than the military. They actually value life experience of many kinds. You start by taking a written test (which you can’t technically “study” for but you should have read a pretty long/wide list of books, so you may want to take time to prepare) then if you pass it goes on to an in-person oral test.

      1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

        Thank you! I’ll take a look this evening. I’m so bored with phlebotomy, I’ve been doing it for 10 years and nothing, has changed, no new challenges at all.

        1. Jules the First*

          On behalf of all of us regular pincushions, can I just say thanks for doing what you do – it sounds like you are awesome at your job and those of us with difficult veins and regular draws love being seen by someone who is knowledgeable and efficient. (And the last thing I want is to have to make polite chit chat with the technician who’s about to make me bleed…so I’d love to get a phlebotomist with your bedside manner!)

      2. misspiggy*

        Also UN Volunteers, which take people with high skill levels to really interesting and out of the way places.

    5. Elizabeth*

      Some jobs like that don’t allow any family to go with the employee. I work for a govt agency and we have postings in Djibouti and it’s usually the young men who go. It’s a chance to save lots of money and when you tour is over, you can write your own ticket.

    6. Brett*

      The main problem with the remote job talked about yesterday is the clearance, often a ts/sci with ci poly clearance. A full ts/sci + ci poly is expensive (~$30k, while TS alone can be as low as $3k) and you need a sponsoring company, who in turn needs a sponsoring federal agency, for you to get one. I get recruited constantly for jobs with an agency in town; they pay about double what I make now with far less responsibilities and a lot less skill requirements in the same line of work that I do now.

      But, they all require a clearance and the contractors hiring for these positions want someone with a clearance right now and will not sponsor anyone. Ironically I have run workshop training for several dozen employees of these contractors to do the jobs I am getting recruited for; they are pretty much all ex-military who get hired for their clearances then get taught the skills they need after hire. (The huge problem is that the contractors want them to learn _only_ the skills they need and nothing more, so they do not leave.)

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe it is just me. AND this is definitely not what you asked. However, have you thought about writing? There is something about the way you get your points across that is interesting to me. I’m not a writer so I can’t describe what I am seeing that well. Just a thought. And I am only one person.

      1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

        I have horrible grammar and my spelling is s**t. I’ve thought about blogging; I was pretty popular in the online weight loss surgery community for a while but then I got aggravated that people thought they knew me and would get uppity about my love for pizza.
        I also feel like I use too many words. I wrote this out this morning when I had a bunch of time and only revised it once but I don’t think people would really care much for what I had to say.

        1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

          side note- There is a movie where the main character’s job is to write letters for people. I’d like to do that. I have a few online friends going though rough patches in their marriages and I write texts to their wives for them. this was from yesterday
          *WIFE NAME* I was completely unprepared for how much this surgery would change my life, there’s so much that I don’t know. I don’t know how small I’ll be, I don’t know how strong I’ll be, I don’t know what holidays are going to be like now that they don’t revolve around me eating, I don’t know what I’m going to do with my career. My life has so many more opportunities now that I can walk up a flight of stairs, I can bend over, I can get up from a chair without rocking back and forth and getting red in the face. I’ve gotten so caught up in all of those changes and let us change too much.

          I love you, I want to be with you, *WIFE NAME* you know what makes me tick, you know what I get happy about and you know what makes me sad, you know my secrets and my dreams. I know we have a lot of work to do to make our relationship strong but we can do it. I have a hard time opening up because I’m afraid, I have a thousand thoughts going trough my head and I don’t know where to begin in talking about them or even saying a complete sentence. I want to talk to you, I want to tell you things and I promise I’ll get better at it.

        2. The Other Dawn*

          Not sure if you’re still reading this, but I wanted to say I totally get you about the weight loss surgery community. I had gastric bypass two years ago and I got so tired of reading the posts from people that are very militant about following the plan and everyone else is totally weak and wasted their money if they want pizza once in awhile. If that type of plans works for them, that’s great. Doesn’t work for me though. I’m all about moderation. Oh, and great news about your suggestion being implemented.

    8. November*

      I’m so glad you posted this update, YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist, and that your employer is implementing the changes you’ve been pushing for! It’s crappy that you had such a rough time waiting for this to resolve, but unfortunately, sometimes an error from a solid, good employee is what finally pushes the management to realize, “oh, hey, it’s not the employees, the process really does need changing”.

    10. olympiasepiriot*

      *claps hand on your back so hard you fall over*

      Bet that’s a relief! And congrats and getting a very logical change made.

    11. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Yay! Glad everything is good. I can relate, I made a big mistake at work once and was certain I’d get fired for it. Like you, I am a good and conscientious employee and this was an easy mistake to have made, but I have what my mom calls “good girl syndrome” and just beat myself up about it. Well, it wasn’t a big deal at all to my bosses that I had made the mistake, they knew it wasn’t on purpose, etc.

    12. Anonsie*

      I mean, it’s entirely possible that your boss never filed anything, but I’m telling you– accidental violations like that happen literally constantly and I’ve never seen anyone get the hammer brought down on them for it.

      But heeeeey on them actually fixing the process. That’s so typical, though. They have a risky process in place forever and go “well you can’t prove it’s a problem” forever and aren’t willing to change it until after something goes wrong. Then something goes wrong, they change the process to prevent it, and pat themselves on the back for their improvements that made patients safer. As the world turns.

    14. Noah*

      Glad it all worked out. A just culture, that recognizes humans will make mistakes, is an important component of employees feeling comfortable reporting errors like this so processes can be changed or fixed.

      On the job front, you might look at Indian Health Services. Not exactly international, but they have many remote locations in places like AZ, NM, ND, and AK. The remote areas usually have housing available and you can bring your family along.

  3. ED*

    This is not really management related- but I would like to throw out a question and see if anyone has any solutions. I’m working on a way to standardize incentive submissions (mostly quarterly and semiannual bonuses). The company I work for has a lot of locations (80+) and many of them submit bonuses for payment. Sometimes they email an excel spreadsheet that they designed, sometimes they send me a bonus amount and employee name in an email, sometimes they’re emailed to another person who has to forward it onto me. There’s no standard way of doing it.

    We’re looking for system (could be web based or local software, we have Citrix) that would allow the managers to submit their incentives and allow us to view who has/hasn’t submitted anything. Ideally we could extract the data in excel as well, to load into our payroll system.

    Does anyone know anything similar that I could explore?

    1. LSCO*

      A very non-technical method would be to maybe use google forms? It will collate the data in a google spreadsheet (which could then be exported to Excel), and it’s fairly easy to use.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yes, this is not difficult to do as a webform or a Google form. Now, having it pull from the list of current employees would take some work, but it might be worth it. (Or it might not, your call.)

    2. LoFlo*

      Can you provide an Excel worksheet with the employee information pre-populated in protected cells for each location and then have the submitters return the spreadsheets to you?

      Another option is if your timekeeping/payroll/ HR software has a manager self service feature that will perform the submission. It is possible that it is existing functionality that isn’t being used.

      1. CAA*

        That’s what I get from our HR team. A list of all my people in an Excel sheet with their start dates / titles / salaries / last year’s bonus. I fill in the blanks with this year’s bonus and merit increase, and it totals them all up and tells me if I’m over budget or not.

  4. Eugenie*

    Ugh — This has been an awful week. I basically got blasted by my boss for not giving enough weight/attention to suggestions made by another department who are using awful data to make their points. I pointed out that their numbers are totally skewed and was told that I need to get my staff to work with them anyways because we don’t want to be perceived as uncooperative — why can’t we all just work with normal, rational, non-scheming people? Too much to ask?

    1. Anna*

      That completely sucks. It’s so aggravating to be told to be cooperative when you know what the other department is bringing to you is flawed and won’t be reliable.

      1. Eugenie*

        The worst part is that the person heading this department is the most combative and challenging co-worker I have. Yet me and my team are the ones who have to be “more collaborative.”

      2. Bea W*

        Can you combat bad data with good data? I’ve found this approach very effective in convincing even my most stubborn collegues to concede to not carrying out bad ideas.

        I also don’t tend to say “omg bad idea!” outright. I let the data do the talking, and people come to their own conclusions. Of course this only works with people who don’t have other agendas. I do it anyway though and get my concerns documented so that when things go south later my butt is fully covered. It’s standard practice amongst my team, because we’re the first people who will get questioned about it when things go wrong or complaints start coming in from other departments about whatever exasperating change was put in place.

        1. Bea W*

          What also gets people thinking is budget and the bottom line. Sometimes the only way to get someone to back off a bad idea is letting them know how much it will cost.

        2. Eugenie*

          Unfortunately, we aren’t allowed to collect our own data on these things and I do feel there are ulterior motives (the other department head is widely known to be difficult to work with and has a record of trying to bring down the work of others). I do my best to at least document the errors and explain how that impacts the results they’re seeing…but the fact that my boss knows there are problems and expects us to ignore them because challenging them makes us look uncooperative is really unsettling to me.

        3. Mike C.*

          Same here. I basically swamp people with so much stuff that they cannot argue otherwise. It’s actually a little more fun if the other folks aren’t cooperative at all.

  5. Anon for this*

    Does anyone have tips for how to work when you’re working 100% for yourself (i.e. with no clients or advisors to define and structure your work)? I make creative online content and rely on various streams of income (ads, affiliate earnings, sales of ebooks) and I just barely get by, but I am sure I could do much better if I prioritized my time better. If I could afford it, I would hire a coach just to provide the goal setting and daily schedule that bosses and professors have provided for my work in the past, but since I can’t, I’ll have to figure out how to create that structure for myself. It seems like it ought to be easy in theory, but in practice I’m finding that I’m unhappy with my productivity. Anyone got any tips?

    1. Dawn*

      ID everything that makes you money (ads, affiliate networking, content creation, whatever)
      Assign everything that makes you money scores in: How long does it take to do a task in this category, how much money does it make you, how much do you like to do this task

      Figure out what time of day you’re the most productive- I know for me I’m crackerjack from 730am till around 11am so I always do my most thinking-intensive tasks during that window. Schedule your most thinking-intensive/annoying tasks to happen every workday during your most productive time.

      Also, be honest with yourself about if you can keep up with being self-employed. If you’re constantly putting off working on things and you know you could do better if you’d only *try harder*, really sit down and think about why you’re not stepping up- are you afraid of failure? Are you afraid of getting more exposure? Are you worried you won’t get a good return on putting in more time? Figure out what’s holding you back and decide if you want to work on that in addition to just putting more time into your work.

    2. Anon the Great and Powerful*

      I’m in a similar situation and at the start of every workday I make a list of all the stuff I need to get done. Pretend the list is from a boss and you’ll get in trouble if you don’t finish.

      I also have monthly and quarterly goals from my “boss” who is me.

      I also find it helpful to work similar hours each day and take the same two days off every week.

    3. katamia*

      Know yourself. Don’t listen to the commonly accepted wisdom. When are your best working hours? Work then. Don’t bother working when you’re at your worst. If you’re not sure what your natural daily rhythms are, try different ones out until you find something you like. One of the reasons why I left my job and am going back to freelancing is because I couldn’t handle the hours; most of my day would be spent working during my worst hours, and everything just took so much longer, to the point where I’d really have been better off just not working at all. Same with silence versus music, office setup, etc.

      Something that often but not always worked for me was to do different kinds of work on different days. For example, I’d write on Monday, do transcription on Tuesday, and so on because it was easier for me to just work steadily on something than to be constantly switching gears. I know several writers (as in novelists) who do this, but I don’t know how well it would work for what you do.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you, Dawn, Anon and katamia, for the helpful tips!

        I do think I need to take my working hour preference more seriously. My SO (who works from home, partly for himself and partly for one employer) is a night owl, and I am more of a morning person. Also, he works in unpredictable bursts, either loafing for days or working like a madman without stopping, whereas I am more stable and thrive on predictable routine. We don’t live together, but I spend a lot of time at his place, and being in close proximity to him definitely wreaks havoc on both my working hours and my attempts to plan ahead. In our early days of dating, I only spent one day a week with him, and I can’t help but think of those days with nostalgia. Back then he provided just enough chaos for me to enjoy while still performing well at the job I had back then.

        The other tips are great too – I’ve been wanting to do something similar to what Dawn suggests about assigning scores to projects – and I think I’ll be able to put them into practice if I can just find a way to put my partner into a coma five days a week. Just kidding. But I think this has helped me realize that his way of life really is hugely incompatible with mine. :/

        Thank you, all!

        2. Dawn*

          “But I think this has helped me realize that his way of life really is hugely incompatible with mine”

          Go over to Captain Awkward to ask for help with that problem :)

    4. LittleMissCrankyPants*

      I’ve been self-employed for over ten years now, and for me, structure and deadlines are absolutely needed to maintain a reasonable working pace and income. My focus is on writing and editing, so I have a clear idea at the start of a project–okay, I need to edit 80,000 words in two passes with a two-week deadline. For ten working days that breaks down to 8,000 words a day plus time for a final review, then submit/upload, then invoice.

      I have a wall calendar (and an e-calendar might work better for you), and it lists every title, word count, due date and $ for each project. It’s a matter of keeping the focus on what makes you money as opposed to dinking around on teh ‘net, er, even here at AAM. :)

      If that means turning off email, internet, phone, and notifications, then that’s what it means. The world won’t end in four hours if you need that time to focus and get Work Done. Put boundaries around your work time just as you would if working in an office.

      1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

        Can you tell me about the leap from fulltime employment (if you were employed full time) to self-employed writer? I think that’s my next step and I’m trying to really think through “quitting my job and being a solopreneur”. I’ve been freelance writing for about 6 years now and maintain 3-4 clients and bring in about $500/month when I’m working steadily. That’s a far cry from what I’d need to support myself.

    5. Betty (the other Betty)*

      I work with clients, but there is always other work to do that is not client-driven.

      I use my calendar as a to do list. (Well, a color-coded sub-calendar on the computer.) I block out time to work on projects and other tasks. Seeing that my day is empty or full helps keep me on track. I also keep a list of things that should get done at some point, so I can fill in with those if I have the time.

      The best thing I’ve done? I have found it extremely helpful to have a mastermind group. I found 3 other people who were at about the same stage of business as me (pretty successful and making a living but wanting to do more). We meet monthly to talk about our businesses and general business topics. For each meeting, we each set a goal. Then we report on that goal at the next meeting. Goals can be big or small; it helps to be held accountable for doing the things we say we plan to do. (And sometimes someone wants to set a goal that is too big and we encourage them to break it into smaller parts.)

      We also help each other achieve those goals. For example, if two people both plan to get some writing done, they might meet outside of the group and write together.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you for the tips, Betty! A group like that sounds awesome. I actually tried once to set something up with a woman who was looking for something similar, with the intention of adding more people when we found them, but on the day of our first meeting she stood me up and I never heard from her again. I told myself not to take it personally, but the experience was sufficiently unnerving that apparently it put me off trying again. But really I’ll have to give it another go. Thanks again!

  6. AnonAdmin*

    My boss doesn’t address my feedback/suggestions and I can’t get him to give me more work. He’s also the ED of the org and I won’t ask the board of directors for help but I have nothing to do all day despite his promises that I would. And my job search is stalling.

    2. Camellia*

      Hmm, is there anything that you can just take over or take on and, if necessary, ask forgiveness later? Or is there some on-line training you could do for free? When I google training like that it seems like there are lots of options. Try learning something new that you might not ordinarily choose or that might help you expand your job search.

    3. NicoleK*

      Do you have colleagues that need help with their tasks? Review manuals and procedures to see if they are current? Update said procedures if they’re not current?

      1. AnonAdmin*

        People always say they’re so busy, and I offer help on specific projects and in general only to get nothing. Or, like, an assignment to do 600 lines of data entry that are already in hard copy somewhere else. I wasn’t hired to only do admin work, though I am, and I’m dead inside.

        1. Artemesia*

          This sucks. Hope you find something new soon. In the meantime is there any pro bono event or service you could invent? A seminar on some thing related to the mission that you organize or a volunteer day related to the mission that you organize or something that doesn’t step on someone else’s job but brings luster to the organization?

          1. AnonAdmin*

            Thanks. Just got another rejection. At least it’s the weekend, right? Pizza, netflix, and all the job applications I can manage to fill out. We don’t really do that kind of thing and my attempts to organize a couple events have gotten blown off. I appreciate your suggestions, though!

    4. Intern Wrangler*

      I’m wondering if you have asked your boss for information about why he isn’t giving you more work. You could sit down with him and say, “I notice that you haven’t taken action on my suggestions; can you give me some feedback on how I should present information on you. It would really be helpful to hear back if something won’t work and why.” I’m glad you are not planning to go to the board. I think that you might have some opportunities to resolve this internally. Are there other senior level staff to get feedback from?

      1. AnonAdmin*

        I’ll definitely try that. I have had a three month review that was very positive and my boss has said he’s happy with my work. Senior staff are by and large incredibly rude and condescending.

  7. My Teapots*

    What are your thoughts on this interview experience?

    Interview scheduled with a one hour block for the hiring manager and subsequent 1/2 blocks with 3 other people. The first interview finished early and he left me in the conference room waiting 30 minutes. Second interview was great. The third person never showed up! So another 30 minutes in the conference room. Fourth interview was great.

    Two days later and I have yet to receive a follow-up from the hiring person (not the manager), I sort of expected an apology once he found out an interviewer stood me up. I like the company, the benefits, the job description, but I’m put off by this experience and lack of consideration for my time (an hour wasted!). On top of this, I can’t get a good read on my would-be manager, who seemed completely uninterested during both the phone and in-person interview (staring out the window while I spoke, no eye contact, coming to the interview without any questions), but I can’t tell if he is just a nervous interviewer/a bit socially awkward.

    There is supposed to be yet another round of in-person interviews, so I could give it another shot and see how I feel. The recruiter mentioned he’d contact me to get my feedback on it, how honest should I be about my thoughts? How would you word it?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Is it an external recruiter? If so, I’d be honest (but tactful, obviously). He might have some helpful information regarding your hesitations.

      1. My Teapots*

        No, internal. I wasn’t sure what to refer to him as to avoid confusing as ‘recruiter’, but he is not HR. He is talent acquisition.

      1. My Teapots*

        When I arrived, the recruiter had mentioned he had to leave early, so gave me the tour at the start. I notified my final interviewer and he was definitely surprised and apologized it had happened.

    3. Future Analyst*

      I would go the route of saying you were “surprised,” since it gives you an opening to tell the recruiter what happened, and is a reasonable reaction to having that happen. The would-be manager issue is what I would give much more attention though– a manager can really make or break your interest and investment in a position, so give that a lot of thought. If that is how he operates as a manager, is that something you can live with?

      1. My Teapots*

        This is what I’m most hung up on, that I haven’t been able to read him. If I am invited back for the final interview round, I’ll be asking people how they like working for him, to describe his style. I like hands-off management, to an extent. I don’t want someone that doesn’t give any guidance whatsoever as to what’s expected/what to do.

        1. Jules the First*

          So make that one of your questions in your next interview – ask how he assigns tasks, gives feedback, and expects his team to communicate progress!

          Personally, I love a hands-off boss….

          1. Future Analyst*

            Right, but there’s a difference between “hands-off” and disinterested/unresponsive, and it’s good to know which he is.

  8. BRR*

    How do people deal with long commutes? My new job is pretty good but the commute is LONG (I didn’t really have a choice about accepting it or not). It’s about two hours each way with a little driving, a commuter train, a subway ride, and walking through very congested streets full of slow walkers and smokers. It’s really taking a toll on me mentally. Any tips?

    I already am equipped with good soundproof ear buds, music, podcasts, Amazon prime videos, ebooks, and audio books. Starting in January I can telecommute two days a week which will be a relief but that is still two months away. It’s been really draining getting up earlier, being crammed in with so many people, having to be aggressive to get a seat multiple times a day, and having so little time at home and when I am home I’m exhausted.

    Also I had post last week or the week before about what to do about dry office air. I got a Bell+Howell personal humidifier ($22 bed bath and beyond with a coupon) which has helped. It doesn’t have a fan so the mist just sort of falls out but I put it in front of desktop fan I have.

    1. My Teapots*

      Can your hours shift so the commute isn’t as long? My husband is allowed to work 10-6 to avoid the heavy commutes, which basically cuts it in half! Or, can your day ‘start’ on the train if it provides wi-fi, so it’s a shorter day in the office but you’re still getting as much work done?

      1. Sydney Bristow*

        Or shift your times so that even though the actual time spent on public transportation is the same but you’ll encounter fewer slow walkers? I like to come in earlier than normal just to have a slightly less crowded subway and fewer people in my way on the sidewalk.

        1. Sara*

          This is what I used to do when I had a 90 minute subway/bus commute. I could have left about 20 minutes later than I usually did, but it was worth it to get going a little earlier and enjoy fewer crowds on 3 of my 4 lines.

      2. BRR*

        Some good suggestions there. Thank you.

        The train does not have wi-fi and my work needs to be confidential. I could do a later schedule but then I wouldn’t be able to get a spot at the train station and I would also get home a lot later. I get home at 7ish already.

        1. My Teapots*

          Getting home later would kill it for me too, home, quick dinner, then bed is a NO for me. What about earlier? If the worst of the traffic is around 8 and 5, could you do 7-4? I struggle with getting up early, but would sacrifice it if it meant not coming home late.

        2. Jennifer*

          If you have a smartphone, does it offer hot spot functionality? This makes for a higher bill, but increasing productivity during my commutes makes it more than worth it.

    2. Regular commenter who asked about this a few weeks ago*

      Can you sleep on the commuter train? That always really helped me with my long commute. I also liked sitting in the same car going home every day, and listening to the train buddies chit-chat.

      I like to talk on the phone whenever I’m walking somewhere. So I call my mom on the way to the bus and on the way from the subway every day on the way to work. On the way home I’ll call my dad or grandmother or a friend. That really helps, and it helped when I drove too.

      Would reading or knitting help? Both of those are good train activities.

      1. Anxa*

        One thing I miss about living in the south with essentially no feasible public transit is train and bus naps. That half-asleep nap. Mmm…

        1. Bea W*

          If you don’t exit at the end of the line napping can get dicey….or interesting depending on how you feel about ending up in some random place in the middle of nowhere if you nap a little too soundly.

          1. A.J.*

            I have an app that triggers an alarm based on location. It works well as long as you remember to set it.

              2. A.J.*

                There are a few apps for Android if you search the app store for ‘location alarm’. I use Ultimate GPS Alarm. Not sure about whats out there for iphone.

      2. Ama*

        Heh, I once took a job with a 90 minute subway commute (1 train change), and at first it didn’t seem that bad, as I often dozed off during the longer train segment. Turned out, I had mono that went undiagnosed until my second month on the job and took another three months to fully recover from. Once I felt better, I couldn’t fall asleep on the train and it felt like it took *forever.* I moved closer to work not long after that.

        But I definitely used to get so much more knitting and reading done when I had 3 hours a day where that was my only option.

    3. Calacademic*

      My commute is 75 minutes, on a good day, door-to-door. I do the things you suggest: podcasts, ebooks, etc. I make sure my phone is charged, and it’s okay. One leg of my journey is 30 minutes, which is long enough for me to get into my activity (including work, if that’s what I’m doing). It helps knowing that my commute is crucial to our family’s wellbeing and future. I don’t berate myself for not being closer to work.

    4. Kyrielle*

      You’re doing most of what I did to cope with my long commute – one other thing I did was take Coursera courses. I could download them to my smart phone and be taking a class on the way. A few of them were just for fun but most were things that would enhance my skill-set for the current or future jobs. That felt more productive.

      I admit I’m glad that my new job has a really short commute, though. Because there was still a strong element of “slogging through” that long commute. (Which I did for quite a while, because as with you, it was the best thing for us at the time, even though I didn’t like it.)

    5. BenAdminGeek*

      Regular podcasts that update frequently were the key for me. I found one that was daily, and it gave me a rhythm to my drives (“today’s Tuesday, so they’ll have Justin on and it’ll be awesome!”) so that every day didn’t feel exactly the same. I tried to avoid radio for the most part- you hear the ads so many times that it is infuriating.

      Commutes are what they are, but I would recommend checking in on how you’re doing every few months with someone you trust. I didn’t do that, and found that about 5 years in, I was very emotionally detached from both life and work. The physical distance created an emotional distance with both my family and my coworkers I would not have expected- I felt like a stranger drifting through other people’s worlds. Looking back, I should have moved closer to work and had more time with my family, but everyone’s different so I don’t want to pressure you on that.

    6. Adam V*

      I used to take the bus into downtown. I would usually either read or play my Nintendo DS – it was especially great for helping me wind down after a long day. Occasionally I would sleep, but I worried too much about sleeping through my bus stop.

    7. overeducated and underemployed*

      It’s definitely toughest on the parts where you have to be active, especially driving and walking through congested streets when you’re on edge about being on time. All I can say is you’re doing the right stuff, just count down to January, two months isn’t that far away. And give yourself things to look forward to when you need it – keep stocked with coffee or cocoa to treat yourself when you get to the office on a particularly rough day, plan a night or two a week when you can just get takeout and veg out, etc.

    8. EmilyG*

      You aren’t by any chance commuting to Manhattan from CT or LI are you? You’ve already covered my entertainment options but I wanted to address the slow walkers/smokers/window shoppers/tourists thing, in case it’s relevant. I used to walk from 6th to 1st Ave. and back every day and 34th St., though wide, is full of slow and aimless walkers. Now 33rd St., that was for the hardcore power commuters. HEAVEN HELP YOU if you walk slow on 33rd St. Maybe you can find an equivalent de facto express lane for yourself. Also a lot of friends who still have similar commutes use Citibike to speed up the last leg of their commute.

      1. BRR*

        From NJ with a transfer at Newark Penn to WTC. So Newark Penn is a zoo both ways and so many tourists around WTC (curse you whoever invented the selfie stick). Thanks for the route advice. I’ve tried some alternatives and I think I have the best possible route but it’s still not great (side note, it’s fun to take different routes and see different things). I’m finding myself in the top 2% of walkers though everywhere. I’m only behind those that run and/or push.

        Once the Oculus opens and I can walk underground to the Fulton Center and that will be a big help (depending on congestion in the tunnel).

          1. Artemesia*

            I live near the tourist section of my city and the real fun is that slow walkers walk six abreast and always have a stroller.

          2. Rat Racer*

            Only second to slow drivers! I live in the Bay Area and am convinced that people are deliberately driving slowly in silent protest of the crazy fast-paced tech industry’s takeover of our formerly laid-back earthy culture. (Look, I have no love for the Google Bus either, but wish the protestors could be a little more targeted in their interventions…)

            1. Jennifer*

              Where are people driving slowly in your Bay Area? In the North Bay (at least on the highways) people drive like mad men at all hours of the day, especially during commuting hours!

      2. AVP*

        I do this too! My office is downtown and even though Mulberry St is the most direct route, it’s actually much faster to walk over a block and back to avoid the sloooowww wanderers.

      3. Nervous Accountant*

        Grand Central..finding a little hallway was helpful to avoid the crowd. I’m jealous of short commutes. I don’t think I’ll ever have a less than 1 hour long commute as long as I live in NYC. On a good day, it’s 1.5 hour door to door, and that includes a short drive, subway, and 10 minute walk. MetroNorth cuts about 45 minutes but it’s more than double the cost as well. Sigh.

    9. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      I commute 2 hours per day by drive – I usually sing along for the endorphins, and make playlists based on different moods so I can stay mellow, calm down, pump myself up, etc.

      The only other suggestion I have at the moment is trying mindfulness meditation. Ram Dass has some excellent advice on Guided Meditation – you note how you feel, what your body is doing, what those around you are doing as a way to tap into the present moment and forget about the discomfort. If you snap out, simply guide yourself again. Occasionally, give into the daydreams and pleasant streams before guiding yourself back into mindfulness. It takes practice but is one of those things you realize you get better at in retrospect. There may be health benefits as well.

    10. Bostonian*

      The year I had a super long commute was also the year I was throwing myself into a project – I was actually doing research in preparation for switching careers and going back to grad school. But having something to do on the train that’s not just filling the time but using it productively made a world of difference for me. Start a blog and write a post on the train every day (offline if there’s no wifi), try one of those sites that lets you put yourself out there for freelance editing, do work for your job, become an editor on Wikipedia or a moderator for an internet forum on a topic of interest, do knitting projects that get donated to good causes, organize your digital photo collection, become a semi-pro photographer and edit the photos on your commute, volunteer with a small nonprofit and lay out their annual report or design them a new donor management database, etc. It depends on your interests and skills, obviously, but there’s a lot you can do even with no wifi if you can use a laptop or even a tablet. But getting home at the end of the day feeling like you made progress on a project instead of like you spent those hours passively absorbing even more media would probably help.

      Or take naps. I took a lot of commuter rail naps the year I had a super-long commute.

      1. rozin*

        Seconded on doing something productive. When I have long commutes where I have to drive, I’ll listen to audio books/audio courses. But if I’m on the train, I’ll whip out my laptop and try to get some writing or design work done during that time. Another thing you can do if you don’t have a laptop available is bring the good ol’ fashioned paper and pencil and either write out ideas/thoughts or improve your sketching skills. And hey, you are already surrounded by people to draw!

      2. I'm a Little Teapot*

        OMG, I wish I could work on my laptop on my commute. I’d be able to get sooo much more writing and reading done if I had a nice quiet sitting-down commuter rail trip of 1-2 hours each way. But I commute mostly by bus, and much of the time I am standing on a crowded bus or standing at a bus stop waiting for the next one.

    11. themmases*

      I have about an hour commute which includes a 10 minute walk on either end. In my situation, it’s not really practical to get up or go to work any earlier. A 30 minute change feels hard to me and doesn’t reliably improve the speed or pleasantness of my commute, so I just don’t try to do it.

      This felt really counterintuitive to me at first, but I stopped being aggressive about getting on or getting a seat and I stopped trying to entertain myself the whole way. A lot of times I just sit, listen to music, and people watch or let my mind wander. I’ve noticed that the way I sit or hold my purse makes me really tense up my shoulders so I try to adjust and not do that, but otherwise anything goes.

      Reading on the train is nice when you get to do it but I found it was making me stress out too much about getting a seat and feel cheated out of the good part of my commute when I couldn’t sit down. Now I bring my tablet with a book I’m medium interested in and just let whatever happens, happen. Usually I find I don’t even care about it even when I get a seat.

      If I have time, sometimes I’ll get off the train a stop early and walk home or walk up the bus line a few stops so I get both a walk and a better seat. Or I treat myself to a (slower) bus ride that lets me look at the prettier parts of downtown while I just do nothing.

    12. Rebecca in Dallas*

      My dad has a long commute but his is by choice mostly. He works in a suburb that is not a far drive, but he takes a train and bus to work at least a couple days a week to save gas/wear and tear on his older car. Plus he actually really enjoys it! He usually does a crossword puzzle (he loves those) and reads the paper. He leaves early enough that it’s not super crowded in the mornings, the ride home usually takes longer though.

      If I had a long commute, I’d definitely read or listen to podcasts. And if you can get some work done, that’s always nice too. Then I don’t think I’d feel as much pressure about getting into the office early, if I could be responsive by email on my way.

    13. Viktoria*

      My commute is about 2.5 hours round trip, all driving. I have been doing it for 7 months and so far don’t really mind it… I don’t have any suggestions beyond what you’ve already mentioned. Audiobooks are my favorite by far. I find I listen to one book a week on average, and for some reason I have found that I am better at listening to nonfiction books than reading them, so I feel like I’m getting smarter. (I do novels too.) I let myself give in a little to the road rage while I’m driving and someone does something egregious, but make a conscious effort to laugh it off/shake it off when I get to work. I think for me personally, it’s healthier to let it out by swearing in the moment than trying to stay completely calm. Of course, with walkers you don’t really have the privacy afforded by a car… probably yelling on the street would not be the way to go. Hope you find a good routine!

    14. Sibley*

      Can you move closer to work to cut out the commute entirely? Yeah, that seems drastic, but that kind of commute is a soul-killer eventually.

      1. BRR*

        I think that’s a great idea and the type of advice I was hoping to get. Unfortunately my spouse’s job is near and he wouldn’t be able to take public transit to it like I can to mine.

    15. A.J.*

      Everyone’s comments here are making me glad I turned down that job with a bad commute. It would have been 3 hours per day total, between the train and 5 miles of walking. When I went to my interview I tried out the commute that I would end up doing on a regular basis (instead of just driving), and I am so glad I did. I learned that the distance from the station to the office is longer than it looks on a map, and that it is completely impossible to get a seat between 6am and 10am (meaning I wouldn’t be able to work on the train).

    16. Sophia in the DMV*

      I have a 3 hour commute that I do 3-4 times a week. Some driving, then Amtrak and a commuter train. I bring a book for the short commuter train and on Amtrak I do work. Days I go in I do certain tasks while there so take the time on Amtrak to focus on other tasks in wont be able to do while there

    17. INFJ*

      I hear you! My commute is 90-105 minutes one way. It sounds like you have plenty of media/hobbies with which to entertain yourself, but are getting worn down by the noise/bustle/being around people all the time.

      Look for another way to walk from the subway to your work. When I started working in the city, I walked the most direct way to the office from the station, but it was a very busy street with lots of people and horns blaring during rush hour. Then I found another way just one block over that was so much more peaceful and scenic.

      Mentally, I don’t feel as bad about having less time at home (I leave at 6 or 7 in the morning and get back between 6 and 7 at night) if I think of the time on the train as my free time. Yes, I don’t have my SO with me as I would if I were home, but I read or mess around on the internet during my train ride and that’s what I would be doing at home anyway. Also, if I have a REALLY good book, I’m so wrapped up in it that I don’t even notice anyone else.

      Things will get so much better once you can telecommute! (I do so twice a week.) Just hang in there, 2 months will go by fast!

  9. Currently Baffled*

    So I’ve got a bit of a humorous issue going on this week. Thanks to AAM I was able to score an awesome new job that I started in August and I absolutely love it! The pay is good and the hours are reasonable and I get along well with all of my coworkers.

    One of my coworkers is an intern who started a few months before I did and she and I get along particularly well. I’m in an entry level position so she and I are pretty much doing the same type of work, and although on occasion I will give her something to do we primarily get work from the same set of people. Out of the blue this week she decided that I needed to ask out a guy in another department who’s working on the same project we are. We don’t really interact with him all that much and I actually didn’t know his correct name until she started talking about him (I was so confused as to who she was talking about until I figured out I got his name wrong). Her entire argument is based around the fact that she thinks he’s the most attractive guy in the office and that someone should date him. Since she’s in a long term relationship and therefore can’t, I’m apparently the next best option. I laughed it off and said he probably wasn’t single but I’d think about it (big mistake) and figured that would be that.

    That was Monday. On Wednesday she brought it up and I again pointed out that she didn’t even know if he was single. Instead of letting it go she went and asked another coworker if she knew if he was single. This coworker had no idea, however she is pretty good friends with the guy’s boss so she asked him if he knew if his subordinate was single. The coworker and the intern were both teasing me lightly about it (probably because I turn red at the drop of a hat) while this was going on. The guy’s boss had no idea but now apparently thinks my coworker (who’s happily married) has the hots for this guy. The coworker also has been mentioning asking a few other people he works with to see if they know his relationship status and keeps sending me IMs about it accompanied with winky emojis.

    The rational part of me knows the way to handle this is to calmly sit both of them down and tell them it’s making me uncomfortable and ask them to stop. The much larger more irrational part of me finds this whole thing hysterical and is curious to see how quickly this is going to blow up in my face. I’m only glad it hasn’t made its way to my boss since not only will she also find it hilarious, she’s the type of person to go directly to the guy and start asking him questions.

    tl:dr The intern I work with is pestering me to ask out a guy in another department because she thinks he’s a total hottie and has roped in another coworker to help out with this plot.

    1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

      Is he cute? do you want to date him? office romance isn’t always a great idea but is usually a great story and i’m up for hearing about it.
      If you want to date him let your spunky coworkers do the hard work, if not id just tell them you wont date a co-worker and leave it at that.

    2. The Wall of Creativity*

      I can feel the tension from here. It can’t go on like this forever. Sooner or later someone’s going to quack.

    3. Dawn*

      Nooooo no no no no no. Nope nope nope.

      Go to her, RIGHT NOW, and tell her to *STOP*. Do not pass go do not collect $200. Straight up, “Lydia, stop talking to me about Darrien. I am not interested.” And repeat over and over and over again until she shuts up.

      This can and will bite you in the ass if you don’t shut it down. Plus, you’re very, very new, and this is the kind of thing that once the rumor mill gets ahold of can build you a reputation that you really don’t want, don’t deserve, and won’t ever be able to shake.

      2. Artemesia*

        Absolutely. This is a disaster nightmare from hell just waiting to happen. It sounds like grade school and will make you look like a fool because regardless of that fact you didn’t start this, it is on your behalf and will stick to you like glue. Go after hot guy; don’t go after hot guy. But NEVER EVER discuss it with interns and co-workers either way.

    4. Bend & Snap*

      I mean, this is going to be a buzzkill, but she needs to know this is unprofessional behavior and it needs to stop. She could also be harming this poor guy with all of this recon. It just doesn’t look good for anybody.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, and if you reverse the genders here, it might be easier to see that it’s not really cool of anyone involved. Shut it down. They’re making themselves and you look bad, and they’re doing something kind of gross and objectifying to this guy … who is, you know, there to work, not to be gawked at and speculated on.

        1. Currently Baffled*

          Thank you so much for putting it like this. The more comments I read the more I realize this is actually pretty horrifying and not at all funny.

        2. Observer*

          So well put.

          I saw the post earlier and my first thought was NOOOO. It didn’t take long to “This shounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. I started typing a response while I was on hold, but I didn’t get a chance to finish and post till now. Then I went back and saw this, and the other responses. I’m so glad to see it.

    5. CaliCali*

      She’s 100 percent trying to live vicariously through you, so all you do is call her on it. You can say something like “Yep, he’s attractive, but I’m not interested and I don’t want to be your dating proxy, so knock it off!” Said lightly, of course.

      1. Ihmmy*

        absolutely this. Don’t let it explode, it’ll just look badly on you to not be saying “No thanks” instead of “teehee I don’t even know if he’s single!” (ok you probably aren’t going teehee but not shutting it down makes you just as much a part of it)

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        Uh-huh. Along with a “I don’t date coworkers, not even when they’re in different divisions of a company. I like to keep my professional life and my personal life separate.”

    6. Devil's Avocado*

      You probably need to just shut this whole thing down, frankly. Don’t laugh along with the co-worker’s jokes about it, don’t encourage it, just shut it down. Saying you’re “curious how quickly this is going to blow up in [your] face” is a big red flag to me… if you like your job, don’t encourage (or sit back and watch) this behavior.

      Signed,
      A 30 year old no-fun married killjoy who has no time for that kind of stuff at work ;)

    7. Sunflower*

      TBH I got exhausted just trying to read this whole story so it sounds like it needs to be shut down right now before more people get looped in and weird rumors get started. I could on about this for days but I’ll try to shorten this.

      This is a lose lose situation. Your intern doesn’t know how the office works and by continuing to let the intern do this, you’re basically saying it’s okay what she’s doing and you agree with it and what she’s doing is not only super childish but totally not appropriate office behavior. Office romances happen but not like this. It’s super easy to get sucked up in workplace fun like this but it rarely ends well and your time is much better spent just working.

      Do you want to date the guy? Office romances aren’t the best idea but ehh they happen and people live. I’m not dating expert and this isn’t a dating site but all this ‘ask you friend if he likes my friend’ is so middle school that if I was this guy, I’d be super turned off by it. And if it was happening at work, I’d be beyond mortified and I’d be that much more turned off that you thought it was appropriate to do this at work. If you like the guy, just talk to him and see what happens. Although you’re new so I’d let at least 6 months pass before you really start considering this to happen.

    8. Currently Baffled*

      You all are absolutely right and I do plan on talking to her about it when she gets in today. I definitely don’t want to date him, so I really need to just shut it down. I guess I got caught up in her earnestness about it since she seems genuinely concerned that I’m single. I just don’t talk about relationship stuff at work so I think she got the impression that I’m lonely. I also didn’t really think about the potential repercussions since I assumed that people would get that it’s her being ridiculous, but now I can see that not being the case. Do you have any suggestions on what to do if it does get out of hand?

      1. Bend & Snap*

        Just tell her to stop it and it shouldn’t get out of hand. You need to tell her this is unprofessional and could impact her reputation, yours and that of this dude who is an innocent bystander. She went to his BOSS? I’m absolutely horrified for him.

      2. Devil's Avocado*

        Talk to her now and SHUT IT DOWN. Something like: “Lucinda, I know I’ve laughed along in the past when you’ve encouraged me to date Jeremy, but I really need you to stop doing that. I’m not interested in dating Jeremy, and even if I were this isn’t how I’d want to go about it. Thanks.” If she brings it up again “Please stop. I’m really not interested. Now about those Smith files…”

      4. Not So NewReader*

        Singledom is not a disease nor does it need curing.
        Just felt the need to say that.

        Yeah, watch out for this high school stuff. You are right, it will blow up in your face. And then it will not be funny. The reason you already know this, is so you can take steps to prevent it from being a big kerfuffle.

        What to say: Talk about being professional, this means being focused on work. Tell her that you both look like giddy high schoolers and this does no favors for either one of you. Talk about sexual harassment. Even go as far as saying, “If we were both men, we would be sued from here to breakfast for this.” Talk about her internship, she does not want a negative reference.
        Remember, the whole time you are talking your most persuasive points will probably be where you show her how her behavior impacts HER, not you.
        And finally, talk about personal boundaries. She is bound to be confused by your change in attitude so go with something like this. “The first couple of times I heard you say this, I just thought we’d laugh and then move on. Well, it has been days now, and other people have been brought it to it and it’s no longer funny. It’s tiring. Who I date and what my personal life is like does not belong in the work place. While I think you and I work well together, I also think that I am a competent adult who can manage my personal life. And I need you to respect that. Going forward you will find that most people you work with will say a similar thing.”

        If she does not seem to get this, then you may need to just point blank say, “Stop talking to me about Bob. Stop talking to other people about Bob and mentioning my name.”

        I think this woman is irritating, personally.

        1. Observer*

          Good point about references. If she pushes back, you can point out that even if people like her, they may not give her the kinds of references she needs. “Lucinda? Oh yes, she’s a really nice kid. She’ll realy go out of her way to set her co-workers up” is not really what is going to help her. Prospective employers want to hear “Lucinda? She’s great. Gets along well with people, gets her work done, and is just professional and reliable” is what you’re looking for (or as close as possible.)

    9. HighOnPoker*

      It sounds like your co-worker is really interested in this guy, and she is trying to use you as a proxy. I’d make it clear to her that you are not interested in dating someone at the office, but beyond that, if she continues to mettle, let her do her thing and watch it blow up in her face (not yours). Then, if it gets back to you, you can truthfully say, “This is all a misunderstanding. Intern was the one who was curious about setting me up with Guy, but I told her I was not interested in dating anyone with whom I work.” Meanwhile, you can enjoy the show.

    10. some1*

      Even if you wanted to date this guy & he wanted to date you, this coworker is obviously never going to let up about it. “Did he kiss you yet?” “Has he called yet?” “Did he give you a Christmas gift?” “Are you hanging out for New Years?”

    11. Observer*

      Please do the intern a favor and tell her that this behavior is hugely unprofessional. And although in your office it seems to be going over just fine, it’s the kind of thing that could really torpedo her reputation in another place.

      Keep something in mind – this is not just unprofessional. This kind of behavior can crate all sorts of problems. You think it’s hysterical and the guy still hasn’t been bothered. But, what if you did NOT think it’s funny, for some reason. And, what if this guy does not appreciate this?

      To be honest, my jaw dropped when I read that she’d actually get in on the action.

    12. olympiasepiriot*

      YMMV, but I’ve got a rule that if even Goddess’s Gift To Sex Appeal falls at my feet, if he is in any of the 3 C’s — Client, Contractor or potential or actual Colleague — I wouldn’t touch him with a barge pole.

      Me personally, I couldn’t deal with the drama nor risk of too much closeness. I like my space. I have NO idea how the Curie’s managed to share a lab. More power to people who can balance that.

      Anyhow, my rule makes it easy for me to shut down suggestions like that.

      1. Anonsie*

        Agreed. And for me, anyone in an off-limits role (friend of a guy I’m dating. guy a friend is dating. coworker. whatever) is automatically filed into a “no thank you” place in my head so I can’t say this has ever been an issue.

    13. Kassy*

      Although she really should realize on her own that her behavior is inappropriate, you also haven’t told her outright that you aren’t comfortable with it. You can just say “I don’t like the idea of dating someone from work.” If you’re pressed, this blog has about a million reasons why dating coworkers can be a problem.

      If you’re interested in ignoring it and watching it blow up, of course you can do that – and it would be far-fetched for you to get into trouble since you aren’t even doing anything here. But if it blows up, it’s likely to do so with your boss’ knowledge, so keep that in mind.

      1. Observer*

        It would be far fetched for her to get into OFFICIAL trouble. But it is quite likely to affect her negatively. Mud sticks, even if you happen to be a passer-by. And the OP isn’t just a passer-by in this.

    14. Gene*

      (I was so confused as to who she was talking about until I figured out I got his name wrong).

      Not Joaquin, by any chance?

  10. Audiophile*

    I got a job offer this week! But now I’m attempting to negotiate salary, because their offer is lower than I make right now.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I feel your pain. A hiring manager just told me that they were going to tell HR to hire me, but that HR would be offering me less than I’m making now, so I should reject it and counteroffer. Exciting, but also anxiety-producing, as I know they want me enough to make me an offer, but I’m not sure that they will be able to offer me enough of an inducement to leave my current job, which I’m pretty happy with.

      2. Audiophile*

        It’s not going well. They now asked, if they can’t meet my salary expectations, would I consider working part time or on a contract basis with them.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Ugh. That’s exactly what I’m worried about, but I was trying to be upbeat.

          Just remember, unless you’re really miserable where you are, you’re better off waiting for the right job instead of just one that’s OK.

        2. College Career Counselor*

          Unless you’re open to it AND it fits with what you want/need, I’d say don’t go contract. If enough people turn down the job because the salary is too low, they might just raise it. If not for you, then for the next person.

          1. Audiophile*

            The reason I’m pushing so hard, is they’ve already come back and said the job is changing slightly. When I interviewed, they stated it would be strictly communications/marketing/social media. They’ve now come back and said, they’d like me to “occasionally” sit at the front desk. I know most people hate the front desk, so I can see this very quickly not being an occasional part of the job. I can’t reasonably do the other parts of the job at the front desk. To me, this is a significant change to the role and warrants an increase.

            I am kind of desperate. I haven’t had a job offer in a year and a half. And I really don’t want to hit 30 with my current employer. It’s just so soul sucking.

            1. MoinMoin*

              “And I really don’t want to hit 30 with my current employer. ”
              I SOOOOOOOO get what you mean. I have 8.5 months to get my life together, so to speak. Sending all the good adulting vibes!

              1. Audiophile*

                Thank you for the good vibes!

                They went up a bit in salary and I’ve accepted verbally.

                I was getting desperate because I haven’t had a job offer in a year and a half. That last job did not work out and I was “fired” a month after I started. I didn’t expect it to take this long to be offered another job. And I turn 30 in two months. I’ve worked for the same employer for 5 years now, but for different clients of theirs. And there’s no growth opportunity here with this company and definitely nothing in my field.

                1. The Cosmic Avenger*

                  Yay!!! I’ll be happy to finally receive a formal offer, and as long as they offer me just a token raise, I’ll probably take it, since 1) the benefits are a lot better, and 2) I feel like I’ve got nowhere to go in my current job, and the new job has a lot of room to grow.

                2. Audiophile*

                  I’ve got my fingers crossed for you Cosmic Avenger!

                  I’m not sure of the exact benefits package with this new job, but it has to be better than my current employer. Until I was transferred a few months ago, I hadn’t seen a raise in 4 years.

            2. Renny90*

              I get what you’re saying and they have definitely changed the job a bit but I’m coming from the hiring managers perspective and I don’t think sitting at the front desk really warrants an increase in salary. This sounds more like you’ll be expected to be a secondary or tertiary backup to the main receptionist which sounds pretty normal. And unless I’m mistaken, sitting at the front doesn’t require advanced skills or more qualified candidates. If they asked you to occasionally build web pages or to lead conferences, then yea, I would totally agree with you about the increase in pay.

    5. Kate*

      I recently applied online to a very large company. The role sounds great so after the auto email I reached out to someone in my network who worked there with the hope of getting an interview. I saw this person on Thursday night and explained my situation. Friday I was on the phone to the companies recruiter and now I have an interview on Monday morning (go networking!).

      The issue is I have a Indian friend who has their wedding this weekend and I have Henna on my hands as I really wasn’t expecting things to move so fast! It’s on the palms of my hands but still very noticeable if say I show my palm. The reason I can interview so soon so easily is that I had taken some time of early next week (when the interview is to be held) as there is a lot of out of town friends visiting for the wedding with which I wanted to spend time. So realistically with me not expecting to be at work, the Henna wasn’t going to be an issue. From a bit of a web search, no there isn’t anything I can do to get it off.

      How would you approach this? Do you think it will impact my chances for a job? Should I mention it? Mention I am on leave today anyway? or just ignore it?

      Thoughts?

      1. Bluebell*

        Just shake hands and casually mention “don’t worry -I had henna on my hands for a close friend’s wedding. It won’t rub off on you but it will fade soon.” Have fun at the wedding and good luck with the interview.

  11. BRR*

    Another question. So my new job is good. It’s a good match with my skills and the people are awesome. A problem though is it’s pretty chaotic/unorganized and I’m a rules, organization, and structure person. Both personally and it’s important for my job to not be blindsided.

    Meetings are always moved multiple times, start late, and don’t have set agendas. Everything is last minute and important. Most people are working hard to stay afloat, there are some stragglers who really need to be cut. There’s not enough planning ahead so things come up and don’t get done as well as they should because they’re rushed. People have an attitude of “well that’s just the way it is here.” My response in my head is, “well that can be changed.”

    Any tips on how to cope or any advice on how to try and influence change?

    1. Dawn*

      Keep your island of calm rationality. Run your meetings on time and with an agenda. Be an example. It’s hard- really really hard- but people will come around to your way of doing things on their own. You won’t change the entire company overnight and heck, you might not change more than one or two people but it’s the only way anyone will come around. They have to *see* how it’s done better and make the connection between doing it better and work being better in their own minds.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yes, this. I also find that when I’m trying to lead by example (which usually means I’m not managing the people in question, or management won’t actively support my ideas) that it helps to explain a lot more about what I’m doing and why, so I basically give people who want to change a template for it. Send out bullet points or detailed instructions if appropriate; it doesn’t mean they have to follow them, but it might get some people moving.

      2. Mike C.*

        This exactly. It’s going to be difficult at first but once you can give folks an example of better ways to do things they’ll notice that things are much more efficient.

        Seriously, see what happens the first time you end a meeting early.

    2. Cat Mechanic*

      My advice might not be super helpful as I’ve written below about my job for which I’m such a bad fit it’s given me health problems, but I too am a structure person and hate being blindsided, and my boss is a “that’s just the way it is here” person. I’m not able to survive in this environment anymore, but that is attributable also to the fact that the job is not a good match for my skills and the people are not awesome. But I was able to make it a few years and not ruin my resume by being very open in my communication with my boss and then resetting my expectations when she said “that’s just the way it is here.”

      My boss is at least a nice person, so she listens to me and is sympathetic. She just won’t change because her work style is the opposite of mine. I had to manage my stress level my resetting my expectations instead of expecting things to work the way they did at my last awesome job. It’s a coping mechanism at best for times when you need it.

    3. NicoleK*

      My workplace is chaotic and unorganized as well. The only way to cope is to adapt to your surrounding and reset your expectations. However, you may find that you can only deal for so long before the chaos gets to you.

    4. Rat Racer*

      How long have you been there? Do you work for the kind of company that seems amenable to this kind of feedback? I would just be cautious about making too many waves in a new environment – even if they are good and helpful waves. (Speaking from a “once burned, twice shy” personal perspective)

  12. Anon for this Q*

    Question about dealing with an unresponsive manager: I work in a field where sometimes clients have questions that I may know the answer, but I still need my manager to vet it (think legal). I’m working with a new manager who frequently seems overwhelmed by his job, and when I email him for these types of answers, I frequently don’t get a response (at all, though sometimes I get an answer long after the client should have heard back). In this industry, SLAs are very important, and if the client really wanted to, they could ask for refunds if we don’t respond in a timely manner (24-48 hours). When I approach my manager in person for an answer, he usually appears harried and as though I’m really stressing him out by asking a question. What are my options? I don’t really want to escalate the issue to my manager’s manager, but I don’t have a good script for approaching my manager about the problem without seeming either demanding or downright annoyed (which I am), and I don’t really want to stress him out further, just deal with the issue.

      1. Anon for this Q*

        Yes– I asked if it works best if I email him. He agreed, and said he’ll confirm the answer to me, then I can email the client.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Have you addressed with your manager that this is a pattern, rather than just trying to get what you need when you need it? Present it as concern for his schedule and client needs –“what should I do when I need sign-off and you’re not available? I want to be respectful of your schedule and make sure that the client gets what they need when they need it.”

    3. Ihmmy*

      What about basically spoonfeeding the answer whenever you can, and including a reply by time (really clearly and bolded and such when you start this up). Instead of “client wants to know what 4×2 is” “Client asked what 4×2 is and I believe the answer is 8, please confirm. [b]I need to reply to client by 5pm tomorrow[/b]”

      1. Jules the First*

        If things are really that time sensitive, can you ask your manager to nominate a second for when he doesn’t respond within x hours, and set up your emails so it’s blindingly obvious which ones are urgent?

      3. Anon for this Q*

        Sorry, should have clarified. I usually write the email as if I’m answering the client (“Hi ___, To your questions A, B, C, you need to do X, Y, Z. Etc.”) with a note up top that says “*** Please see below: client question is A-C, I answered X-Z: please confirm that this is correct.” I do all the work/write-up ahead of time, so he literally just needs to say “yes,” or “no, change to D-F,” so I’m not entirely sure what the issue is.

    4. Argh!*

      Ask permission to give the answer you think would be right. If you keep getting put off, you really should go over his head. His manager’s job is to manage employees’ workload, so if that’s the issue that’s where the solution is.

  13. Nobody*

    I’ve been in my job for two years. My first performance review was a year ago, and my managers gushed about how great they thought I was, said I was the top employee in the department, and gave me a rating of “exceeds expectations” and the maximum raise. I was a little embarrassed, because at that point, I was still learning the ropes and I felt slow and inept compared to how quickly and easily I could do everything at 5+ years in my old job.

    This year, I feel like I’m finally working up to my own standards. I’m much more proficient and productive than I was a year ago, training other employees, coming up with good ideas, etc. I even won a company award. My review, however, seemed lukewarm compared to last year’s. It was still mostly positive (with a couple of really minor, nitpicky criticisms), and I was given a high rating in most categories, but my overall rating was “meets expectations.”

    I think I was clearly a better employee this year than I was last year, but I feel like there’s been some expectation creep. Last year, I was new, and I guess they didn’t expect much from me, but now that they expect me to be the top employee in the department, even if I still am, I’ll merely meet expectations. The same thing happened at my last job — I got more praise one year in, when I barely knew what I was doing, than when I was at the top of my game with 5+ years on the job.

    What the heck am I supposed to do? I guess maybe I should take a lesson not to set the bar too high in my first year at future jobs, but that doesn’t help as long as I stay here. Should I underperform for a while until they forget my normal level of performance and then step it up to impress them again? It’s really frustrating to think that no matter how good I am, I’ll probably never exceed expectations again at this company.

    1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

      Was it the same person doing the reviews? If so could it just have been changes in there mood? Did you get the maximum raise again? If you did them it might have just been a lack of enthusiasm or maybe they just finished a poor review and they were feeling off?

      1. Nobody*

        Yes, the same manager did both reviews. I didn’t get the maximum raise, just the average raise, since my overall rating was lower (meets expectations vs. exceeds expectations).

        1. Kelly L.*

          My first guess is that someone higher up chewed him out for using too many Exceeds. Yes, it’s pretty dumb, but it happens at some workplaces.

          1. Nobody*

            We are one of those stupid workplaces with a quota for ratings. I believe we are limited to 2 exceeds in our 15-person group. Apparently, I deserved one of them last year but not this year.

            1. Ms. Anne Thrope*

              We were told a few years ago that ‘everyone is a 3’, to which of course I responded ‘then why bother asking since you already know the answer?’ but of course they don’t want to hear that.

              Sigh.

              1. Mickey Q*

                The reality is that if they keep giving you rave reviews you will expect raises all the time. The are toning it down to avoid that.

            2. Kassy*

              I think that right there is your answer. It’s possible that 10 of you truly deserve “exceeds” but there are still only 2 to be given out. With that in mind, your manager might feel the need to spread them out so that it isn’t the same two people always getting the max raises.

              I’m guessing it probably isn’t ten people, but even with four or five it still works.

              1. Jennifer*

                Hah, the only time I ever got “exceeds” in one area it was because they put me down as “needs improvement” somewhere else.

          2. MsChanandlerBong*

            Yeah, my mom’s boss told all of his department supervisors not to give out any fives on performance reviews. It doesn’t matter how well an employee performs; a supervisor can’t give more than a 4 out of 5 on a five-point scale.

            2. Kassy*

              Our supervisors never give more than 7 (“successful”) on a 10-scale, because if they give an 8 or higher, they have to document why that employee deserves that rating. I guess for 10 I could understand that, but to reserve the top 3 numbers seems extreme.

    2. Dawn*

      Let it go. You can’t be Jesus all day every day. Ask your boss(es) for pointed feedback at review time and make them tell you want their idea of “exceeds expectations” is.

      Don’t scale your performance back! Keep on being awesome- I promise, it’s being noticed- and that will help you along way more than your yearly performance reviews.

    3. Elizabeth*

      Meets expectations is a good review. Perhaps last year you were exceeding for a newbie. Where I work reviews fit on a bell curve. So maybe your boss was giving out too many “exceeds”.

      1. Kyrielle*

        Yeah, my new job is apparently fairly impressed with me. I’m not, because I’m still learning the ropes. But they know that and, for “still learning the ropes” I am doing well.

        Eventually, I will no longer “still be learning” and I expect that to be reflected in my review at that time.

    4. MaryMary*

      Share your frustrations with your manager and ask what it would take to receive an exceeds expectations next year. It could be that the bar really is lower for new hires and an experienced hire would have to be absolutely exceptional to receive an exceeds. It could be that one of those nitpicky criticisms is a bigger deal than you thought. It could be that some of your peers also had a fantastic year, and you don’t look as spectacular in comparison. When it comes to a performance ranking system like the one you’re describing, a lot of times there are other factors besides your individual performance that are taken into consideration. If it’s important to you to receive an exceeds, explicitly ask what needs to happen to get you to that rating.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just ask the boss what gives?

      I had it happen in a few places that I worked. One place the boss at least had the decency to say that the first review I got would be my lightest. Subsequent reviews would be more picky/more demanding. Okay. At least I knew what to expect. That was better than the bosses who just seemed to be so randomly hot and cold.

      I suspect my boss would review everyone on X then the next set of reviews everyone got critiqued on Y. The target was always moving. We were not allowed to have copies of our reviews so I could never remember what the target of the day was. (The boss covered dozens of other points in his review, most of it had nothing to do with my work.)
      If you view it as a game or a challenge, that might help. This week’s challenge is to do better at X, next week will be something else.

    6. Snargulfuss*

      Ugh, I get your frustration. I was once “reassured” that I didn’t get an exceeds expectations rating because going above and beyond the job is “just what we do.” Really, it was just a rating quota thing, but seriously, how are you ever supposed to get an exceeds expectations rating (and the raise rate that comes with it), if exceeding expectations is supposedly part of the job.

      1. Lindsay J*

        I always hated the interview question about telling about a time when I went above and beyond what the job required of me because for most of my jobs going above and beyond was literally in my job description (think like similar to a hotel concierge).

  14. ACA*

    So I have a very weird conundrum in that it’s a lucky problem to have, but kind of a problem nonetheless:

    I have too much vacation time. We can have a max of 24 days accrued at any time, and you stop accruing more until you use some. I hit the max in July, hit it again in October, and will hit it again by March. (I have vacation time scheduled in December, or it would be even sooner.) Also, while I’ve been at my company for almost four years, I’ve only been in my current office for a few months, so I’m still getting a feel for how things are done in terms of what’s an acceptable amount of time off. Should I just…start taking off on random Fridays or Mondays? Take a week off in February and spend it napping and binging on the latest season of House of Cards? Accept that I’m never going to beat the system, and also my diamond shoes are too tight?

    2. Dan*

      If you have too much vacation time, it’s because you’re not using it. This is NOT a good problem to have!

      My problem is that I don’t have enough vacation — while my company gives me 4 weeks a year, I actually use it for long trips overseas, so I don’t have enough for random days off…

    3. Christy*

      1. Random week stay-cation sounds like a great way to burn some time.
      2. Random Fridays, or perhaps Friday half-days every Friday for a few months.

      Do not admit defeat! They give you the leave because they want you to use it! It’s not a bad thing to take leave.

      1. CherryScary*

        My fiancee did #1 this week. He had an extra week of vaca that I didn’t have, so he took this whole week off and just played Fallout 4. I was incredibly jealous.

    4. MKT*

      I really like the week off in February for House of Cards. I think that’s an EXCELLENT use of vacation time.
      Might even do that myself.

    5. fposte*

      Since we have some rollover and I don’t get out much, I lose vacation time every year. I don’t worry a lot about it.

      But it does sound to me like you haven’t thought about time off as something separate from leaving town, and I would encourage you to do so. Yes, absolutely take Fridays off. A nap and HoC week in February sounds awesome. I agree with checking with your supervisor if you’re looking at cutting several weeks short, but not if it’s about getting reasons approved. I’d just say “I’ve got a pile of vacation and was planning to take Fridays off for the next few weeks; I don’t anticipate any problem in the workflow from what I can see, but if there’s a reason that you need me here for any of them, please let me know.”

      1. BRR*

        “time off as something separate from leaving town”

        I read this in the comments every time I read yahoo articles “Who can afford to go on vacation anywhere?!?!” A week at home with no commuting, no work, and rest sounds rather nice to me.

    6. LCL*

      Random Fridays or Mondays always works for me.
      The year I took a series of Wednesdays off for ski lessons worked even better.

      1. EmilyG*

        When I’ve been in this situation, I love taking Wednesdays. A long weekend just makes me inefficient. A random day off in the middle of the week gives me an extra “Friday night” on a Tuesday, plus two mini-weeks and a break in between!

        2. LabTech*

          I’ve been doing this a lot lately, too. Really helps fighting against burn-out, whereas a week off for me would make me stir-crazy sitting around the house.

    7. Ad Astra*

      Ooh, I am jealous. Personally, I like to use most of my vacation days on random (or strategic) Fridays and Mondays, mostly because I live a few hours from most of my friends and family and like to take weekend trips. That’s generally less disruptive to your team than taking off a whole week, and it saves you the stress of coming back to a week’s worth of emails.

      But, if you’re not sure about the culture in your office, I think that’s a really reasonable thing to bring up with your manager.

    8. LBK*

      I’m facing this exact issue right now as I’m about to lose over a week of vacation at the end of the year, ergo I’ve decided to spend a week of December laying in bed playing video games. I vote strongly in favor of a napping/House of Cards staycation. Another suggestion: if you travel or otherwise take occasional long weekends, tack an extra recovery day on to them in between when your trip/event is over and when you go back to work. Not only will it eat up some extra days, I just find it nice to be able to mentally transition rather that going straight from vacation mode to work mode.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I try to do that, too — adding a day to a weekend trip makes everything much nicer! And gives you a chance to do laundry, etc. (And by “etc.” I mean watch tv!)

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I like that too. Random Fridays are awesome, especially since I changed front desk days (now I cover lunch on Wednesdays–yay!). But we accrue PTO and I don’t like taking it. I’m taking one day at Thanksgiving and maybe a half day before Christmas, and it’s stressing me out because I really really really really want to go to Europe next year before our FYE.

    9. Emmie*

      It sounds like you might not have specific days in mind. I would approach my manager, ask what times are convenient for the business, and explain that I do not care about the time off. I worked with a man who did this. He scheduled his vacation days when no one else was off, and even took 1/2 days every day in December that no one else vacationed (so all but the week around Christmas. ) His flexibility was definitely appreciated, and his approach demonstrated his focus on business needs.

    10. LadyHope*

      I hear you. Between vacation time and comp time I could literally take off for 6 1/2 weeks. Except since I get comp time instead of overtime (I work for a state university so yes, it’s legal ) I can’t actually afford to take a vacation. Fortunately the cap on vacation time is very high. The cap on comp time is lower so I always use that first.

    11. Boop*

      Definitely you could ask your supervisor, but I wouldn’t recommend taking too many random Monday/Friday days off – it just looks a little questionable.

      Perhaps your supervisor would allow you to use some of the time to leave early one day a week? For about four months I left an hour early on Tuesdays and worked an extra hour on Thursdays. If you have a class or activity (or just want to leave early and take a nap!) you want to do, maybe you can ask your supervisor if you could take your vacation in small increments over a period of time.

      It sounds a little snotty, but I also have this problem. Taking a significant vacation (more than 2 consecutive days) from August to June is pretty much impossible in my job because the workload is too high and I’d be four weeks making up the work. And July is tough because I’m assisting others in the office during that month since that’s their busy time! We can only have 45 days, and if you exceed that amount during the contract year it gets chopped off in the new contract year.

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        What do you think is questionable about random Fridays/Mondays? (Genuine question, not trying to be snarky!) In my office, this is pretty common, same thing with the day before or after any holidays when the office is closed. People can maximize travel this way (ie cheaper to fly out on a Thursday night than Fri night/Sat morning).

        1. LCL*

          Random Mondays-Fridays (random days at the start/end of the workweek) are a common thread of people that like to party a little too hard. If you plan and schedule them ahead of time it doesn’t like fishy. If you do like the person who called in today and said ‘something came up’, well, you know what we are all thinking. In this corner of the world, that would be ski slopes open, not drugs.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Around here they offer mini courses at some places. You can go and learn blacksmithing or basket weaving, or whatever. Maybe you could chew up some vacation time that way.

    13. CollegeAdmin*

      I have the same issue – I went from retail to temping to 2 bosses who strongly discouraged vacation, so now in my new role I have to “learn” how to take vacation.

      I would do the random days, and also think about any housework or errands you’ve been putting off. I’m taking a week off in December to clean, go shopping, and get my hair done, just because I can :)

    14. Lillian McGee*

      I do both of those things as well. The week-long staycation is a great recharge for me, especially if I spend the whole time on the couch spending nothing! My vacation time resets at the end of January so I often end up taking an errant Friday or two (or three) that month. Lots of people in the office do that as well toward the end of their accrual year.

      It’s your vacation, take it!

    15. Kassy*

      I work for a state agency where EVERYONE is way overworked and paid comp time instead of overtime. So those who have been here four or five years are constantly hitting their max vacation. Luckily for us, they only “sweep” once a year (on Halloween) and so that’s the only time you’re penalized for being over. October is a ghost town around here. I’m guessing other people at your company have probably had this problem, and so there’s some sort of convention here that someone can point out to you.

      This has been said several times, but your House of Cards week sounds excellent!

    16. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I like taking an occasional 3 day (or 4 day!) weekend to burn through extra days. Sometimes I’ll also take a “productive” day off, schedule any doctor/dentist/whoever appointments that I’ve been procrastinating (you know, the kind you can really only get done at an odd time on a weekday) and get those all out of the way.

      My husband had a bunch of extra days this year (I went on 2 girls’ trips, so I used mine for travel), so he is taking off the whole week of Thanksgiving, then between Christmas and New Years. He’ll do some productive house stuff but I’m sure he’ll also spend a lot of time playing video games or watching Netflix. I’m super jealous!

    17. themmases*

      Are you able to sell any of it back? Sometimes place that give a lot of PTO have some way for you to do this. You would have to pay some taxes on it but it’s better than just not accruing an earned benefit due to the cap.

      I knew people at my old job, especially managers, who did this all the time because there was no way they could take all that they earned. The year I knew I was going to leave, I was able to use some of my accrued PTO as partial payment for a computer I bought through the employee purchase program.

    18. squids*

      I ended up with extra vacation time this year, and I’ve got 6 weeks of 4-day weeks leading up until the holiday break. Not so bad. Helps a lot with shopping, cooking, cleaning, and prepping for when my other part-time work starts up in January.

    19. Noah*

      I’m in the same boat. We can only accrue so much and only so much rolls over. We just lose the rest. I negotiated for extra vacation, but with floating holidays and comp time I haven’t used much this year.

      I’ve started working half days on Wednesdays and have a week scheduled around Thanksgiving to take off. Planning another week in January where I either stay home or go someplace close.

  15. Turanga Leela*

    Office etiquette question: I have a coffee mug on my desk at work. I don’t wash it often; I just rinse and re-use. When the office cleaning staff comes through once a week, they’ll wash my mug and any other dishes/utensils (like a fork left from lunch) that happen to be on my desk. I feel awkward about this—dishes seem like something I should take care of on my own. But maybe this is just part of having my office cleaned. Any thoughts on this?

    1. AnotherFed*

      That would weird me out. I’d probably start putting it in a drawer or bringing it home so it just wasn’t there to wash.

    2. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

      That’s weird, if you know what day they’re coming maybe pop it in a drawer or talk to you boss about relaying a message to the company about touching items on staff desks.

    3. Bethy*

      Part of me thinks you’re fine, since it’s your office and not a common area, but maybe the custodial staff is worried about it becoming a bigger problem? Maybe you could put a note saying “I’ll take care of these!” or something. I think if you haven’t said you are going to handle it they will keep doing it, but perhaps grudgingly, because they think you expect it now.

    4. acmx*

      For when our cleaning crew does a “deep clean”, we’re to remove personal items from our desks.

      I’d have to rewash my dishes after the cleaning crew, though.

    5. Daisy Steiner*

      I think it really depends on the workplace. I’ve worked places where it was totally normal to leave your dishes for the cleaners to clear away, and others where that was a huge no-no – you had to clear them yourselves. In those places, the cleaners would still take them away, as it would be unhygienic to leave dirty dishes around overnight, but it was considered impolite to the cleaners as it wasn’t really their job.

    6. LBK*

      I think I’d just take it as a nice perk/gesture. If you’re leaving them on your desk I think that’s a clear indication that you’re not expecting them to be washed for you (as opposed to leaving them in the sink, which might come off a little presumptuous and therefore they might be doing it begrudgingly rather than going out of their way to collect items from around the office).

    7. Tris Prior*

      This happened all the time at my last job and I felt really awkward about it too! I guess it is just sometimes a thing that happens?

      (though, this wasn’t as weird as the time I was traveling for work and one night when I got back to my hotel room, I noticed the maid had cleaned all the hair out of the hairbrush I’d left on the bathroom counter…..)

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I wouldn’t mind as long as they returned it to the right desk. I sometimes leave my mug in the sink for the house elves (I call them that because we don’t see them) to put in the dishwasher and remove the tea stains. But I’m paranoid, because it’s my AAM mug and I don’t want another coworker to take it.

    10. Oryx*

      This would actually really annoy me, but only because I’m weird about coffee mugs and can taste a difference (that I don’t like) in mugs that are freshly cleaned so I just do the rinse out. I’d probably just put it in a desk drawer or something so they didn’t have access to it.

    11. Rebecca in Dallas*

      That’s weird to me, too. I’d just wash it after they do. I’m weird about dishes, though, if they don’t go through the dishwasher I only trust myself to wash them. I’m too afraid that there will be soap left!

    12. BRR*

      My new job has a cleaning person that does dishes (can I defer my office dishes and bring in my ones from home?) and I find it weird and uncomfortable. She knows my mug stays on my desk after she asked and I said I prefer to keep it so nobody else uses it (it’s my chocolate teapots LTD mug :D). If I were you, either grow comfortable because that’s part of their job or keep it in a drawer.

    13. Turanga Leela*

      Thanks, guys. I don’t mind having someone else touch my mug; it’s really just guilt because I feel like I should clean up after myself and it might not be part of the cleaning person’s job. This week I told her that I’d take care of it, so I’ll see if she decides to wash it or leave it next week.

  16. katamia*

    Slightly complicated resume question.

    For about 2 years, I worked from home editing Defense Against the Dark Arts textbooks. I worked for two companies, Gryffindor Inc and Ravenclaw LLC. Because it was basically the same work and I was a contractor, I’ve been listing this on my resume as “Contracting Editor” and not mentioning the company names at all. Listing the company names would be awkward because I left Gryffindor at one point and returned a few months later.

    When I got a related job editing Charms and Potions textbooks for Hufflepuff Pvt Ltd, I moved to another country because, well, that’s where the job was. Therefore, I quit working for Gryffindor again and informed Ravenclaw that I was leaving the country. The end date for my “Contracting Editor” entry is listed as July 2015 on my resume, and I started working at Hufflepuff in August 2015.

    Hufflepuff turned out to be a terrible fit for various reasons that aren’t important here, so I wound up quitting. My last day is tomorrow, so Hufflepuff would go on my resume as having been from August 2015-November 2015. Ick.

    I plan to go back to editing DADA textbooks. Gryffindor really likes me. I’m 99% sure they will take me back if I ask. Also, due to a communication mixup, I accidentally never officially quit working for Ravenclaw and didn’t realize this until after I knew I was quitting Hufflepuff, so I never quit because I knew I wanted to do DADA textbooks again. So technically I’ve been employed with Ravenclaw the whole time.

    However, the pay is mediocre at Gryffindor and downright terrible at Ravenclaw. I’d like to try to get hired at Slytherin, Durmstrang, or Beauxbatons before going back to Gryffindor because they pay better. I might do a little bit of work for Ravenclaw, but I’m planning to contact Gryffindor probably at the start of January if I can’t find anything else.

    So what is the least awkward way of putting all this on my resume? Would it be worse to leave Hufflepuff off and just have a weird explanation-defying gap between my two stints as a Contracting Editor, or am I better off listing Hufflepuff? (I have reasonable answers for why I left Hufflepuff after such a short time for future interviews.)

    1. Future Analyst*

      First, LOVE the names.

      Now- per your actual question: for the time being, keep Hufflepuff on your resume– you can leave it off once you’ve been at your next company for a while. It may work best for you to do work for Ravenclaw right now, so that you have continuous “coverage” while you’re working on finding something new.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks!

        I actually haven’t done any work for Ravenclaw since July, though–I feel like that’s a pretty long gap to leave something on your resume when you’re not doing any work for them, even though Ravenclaw is a “marketplace”-type employer–they don’t assign any work, they just put it all up when it comes in, and then it’s first-come, first-serve for who gets each job (similar to Mechanical Turk). There have been other months when I didn’t do any work for Ravenclaw because they didn’t have much work available, but July-December (because I won’t be able to do any for this month) is a much longer gap.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      Do you not want to lump the Hufflepuff job in with the other work because it was regular employment (non-contract), or because it was a different subject? If you’re reasonably certain you’ll be able to return to the DADA contract work in the very near future, I would leave Hufflepuff off, list “Editor (contract) , June 2013-August 2015, January 2016-present” (or whatever the actual dates were) and if asked, say I took a break between assignments.

      Now, the more important question: how does one get a job editing textbooks?

      1. katamia*

        I have no idea, actually! I couldn’t make the teapot metaphor work for this question, so I went with something reasonably similar but not identical to the work I actually did. I didn’t want to use the actual work because I didn’t want people to be able to identify me.

    3. Anna*

      You worked for Hufflepuff for a year. Why leave it off? Since you were a contracting editor, it wouldn’t be insane to have multiple companies listed during the same time frame. List them as separate gigs. I have similar things on my resume and the only time it’s been weird is in automated online apps that get confused by dates. Every other time it’s never even raised an eyebrow. Literally nobody has ever asked me about the overlapping dates.

    4. Amy*

      Okay, this may be totally off the wall…but would it make sense to put “Freelance Contracting Editor (November 2013-5)” or something? Not sure if freelance really applies, but it sounds similar.

      1. katamia*

        For Hufflepuff or for Gryffindor and Ravenclaw? That’s how I have it set up for Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but Hufflepuff is different enough that I can’t lump them together; I was doing the exact same thing for Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, basically.

        1. Cambridge Comma*

          Why not put freelance contracting editor with a timespan and then list hufflepuff, ravenclaw and gryffindor underneath?

  17. Folklorist*

    Missed it last week–was actually being productive!–but, ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!

    What have you been putting off all week (or all month)? A tricky conversation, annoying emails, terrible voicemail followups? I can guarantee you the guilt is worse than doing them!

    Go do THAT THING, and come back here to brag about it when you’re done. It will feel oh-so-good, and a great way to wrap up the week!

    1. Anxa*

      Packing for Thanksgiving trip. Not that I need a lot to pack, but I get very weird about getting ready for trips. I always forget something I’ve been meaning to return o take back.

      1. Anxa*

        Whoops: work related:

        There’s an administrative portion of myjob I’ve slacked off on majorly, as I literally didn’t have time to take the 10 minutes a week some weeks. Now I’m way behind and have no idea what to write down. :-/

        1. Folklorist*

          :-) OK, what’s one tiny thing you need to do to get that admin project rolling? Do you have to find files to start filing? Get them out! Set them in front of you! Need to print documents to put in them? Open the first documents or two they’re in the background and you can hit print whenever you have two seconds.

          The smallest thing to get the ball rolling–even if you can’t even devote 10 minutes right now–will help you in the future.

    2. Anna*

      At work, putting together this quarter’s newsletter to send to our community partners. At home, talking to someone about an event I’m planning they would like to perform at. I don’t particularly like this person or the style of music they play BUT I’ve always been nice to her and she’s a good singer, so…I resolved to respond today after putting it off for weeks.

    3. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

      Writing an email that I just didn’t know how to word.

      Sending a bunch of letters out.

      BUT I’M DOING IT ALL RIGHT NOW.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Updating a set of report documents. The other ones I had to do first because we use them more often, but once I finished, I didn’t want to even look in the folder for a while. I did start doing them yesterday, in case we need them again soon.

    5. Ad Astra*

      I busted through tons of nagging tasks all week and I’ve really felt on top of my game, but today’s productivity has been close to zero. You win some, you lose some.

    6. bridget*

      I have to fill out a form to adjust my health insurance plan during open season. I’ve had the form for a month, I know or have all of the information readily available, including the plan I need to switch to, and I just can’t seem to force myself to look up the new plan’s code or ask my husband for his social security number.

    7. Rat Racer*

      Responding to a horrible, tedious, ridiculous RFP that is asking for information in a format that doesn’t make sense, or if we do have it, it is proprietary. The benefit consulting firm that owns the RFP doesn’t like my company anyway, and I don’t think we’ll win the account no matter what I say. I was going to start working on it though – and then my computer crashed so I am hanging here until everything on work laptop reboots.

  18. Bend & Snap*

    Any tips on how to talk to my manager about awards? Basically my company has a reward program that anyone can nominate someone for an award and it comes with a monetary component. There are some people who get them just about every quarter (including someone I manage) and some who never get them at all. I used to get them frequently but since I got a new (awesome) manager I’ve only received one award in the past 18 months, despite getting high praise for great work and creativity. Prior to that time I had 6 awards in 2.5 years.

    I talked to him about it and he said he’s been accused of being stingy with this program. And that if I do a good job on the big project I just finished I should get an award. And he thought he gave me one for another awesome thing I did (he didn’t) but would check. I told him I didn’t get one for that and never heard anything else about it.

    So…big project is over and no award even though I got a lot of praise for the great results and boss called it “a great victory.”

    I don’t want to sound entitled, but I am frustrated and it’s demotivating to see the lists of people who get this recognition every quarter and not ever have my name on the list. Especially when my boss’s name is on the list.

    This program is highly encouraged by our leadership so that’s not the issue. And apparently the issue isn’t my work quality, attitude or performance.

    So…what now?

    1. AnotherFed*

      If anyone can nominate anyone for an award, can one of your fellow coworkers nominate you? It sounds like you’re doing the work that would earn a nomination, so if it doesn’t matter who nominates you, there’s no reason to pester the manager that doesn’t seem to keep his word on that stuff.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        Technically they can, but he’s the only one who has the insight into this particular project to be able to nominate at the right level. When peers do nominations they’re typically fluffy, collaboration type nods at the lowest recognition/monetary level possible.

      2. Bend & Snap*

        And I don’t think I’m “pestering my manager.” I am asking a reasonable question about how to be recognized for my work.

        1. AnotherFed*

          Right, that wasn’t meant to be a judgemental word choice, so I apologize. I meant that if you have to nag the guy to keep his word on actually getting you an award that he promised you, the problem is that *your manager doesn’t keep his word* without a lot of help.

          1. Bend & Snap*

            I don’t want to drop it when I’ve only had one conversation about it. This is a big deal in my organization and I’m not going to sacrifice my visibility/recognition, plus these awards can go up to thousands of dollars.

            I’m looking for language to approach it again with my boss.

            1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

              I think that your visibility and recognition might be key here. Is your manager new to the company? You could frame it as: these aren’t just feel-good awards, they’re a way for us to share our successes and be recognized for our individual work that often other teams might not be aware of. It’s important for me to be recognized accordingly. It’s not about wanting a pat on the back, it’s about a documented recognition of going above and beyond.

              1. Sunflower*

                Is it also possible your manager thinks these awards are meant for lower on the totem pole people as a way to encourage them?

                1. Bend & Snap*

                  Kind of. He basically has a higher standard for more senior people, which is fine. But there’s a difference between an incredibly high standard and no recognition whatsoever. The one award I’ve had since he joined actually came from his boss.

              2. Bend & Snap*

                I like this. He’s been here a long time, but if I frame it as “merchandising my work” which he’s big on, and feeling devalued within the team, it may help. Thanks!

    2. Anna*

      It sounds like the award process is not standardized. Sometimes you do something amazing and you get awarded; sometimes you do something amazing and someone else gets an award. Does anyone have any insight in to how the decision is made on who gets an award? I mean, 6 in 2.5 years seems like an excessive amount to me.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        that’s a pretty normal cadence. The whole point of the program is that if someone decides it’s award worthy, it is. It goes through 2-3 levels of approval but the only way it gets denied is if there are duplicate awards.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      In order to sound NOT entitled you might try advocating for evenness across the board. Granted a more senior person could have to do x,y and z to get an award, where a newer person could do x and maybe half of y. At least this is a rule that everyone understands. But for your boss to have a rep of being stingy is not an accomplishment. Over time it will wear his people down. Notice how I am talking about the impact on the department as a whole, this makes it sound less about you and more about the bigger picture, which, of course includes you and your concerns.

      The problem is that senior people are still people. People need kudos, they need motivational devices, praise, etc. It’s part of being human. The company offers this award program because the company expects him to use it as a tool to keep his department humming along. If people have to watch others get awards they know they cannot get, these people will not be humming along. It’s just predictable human nature.

      If you feel up to the discussion you could say that while some believe that people should not need awards to do their jobs, reality is that when awards are well done and done in an even, predicable manner people will tend to respond. You are saying he is an awesome boss, so maybe you can have this type of discussion and gain some ground.

      Lastly, while not true compensation, some people do look forward to receiving an award as an extra, a fringe benefit of working for your company. Ask him “If a spouse fails to randomly thank another spouse for doing what they do, what happens to that marriage?” Then point out that a similar type of thing can happen in work places.

  19. Weekday Warrior*

    Any other managers feeling a bit burned out by the emotional labour of organizing birthday, wedding, baby, retirement celebrations/gifts, which are a minefield of potential offence! And now the holiday season begins. Parties, secret santas, etc. You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Makes me crave a big bag of humbugs (a real candy)!

    1. Weekday Warrior*

      I should clarify that it’s certainly not just managers that get burned by having to organize social function and take the flak from the dissatisfied. My sister still shudders thinking about the holiday lunch for coworkers she had to organize years ago. Despite extensive consultation and seeming agreement on date, time, venue, menu….lots of back channel complaints after the fact. Some people can’t just enjoy a nice paid for lunch…

      1. Ama*

        There’s one particular coworker in our office who took over the holiday party planning a few years ago (interestingly enough, in an office that’s 90% women, our holiday party planner has been a man the entire time I’ve been here), and I always try to be super responsive to his emails about it, not only because he does a great job, but I’m super glad it’s not my responsibility!

      2. Xarcady*

        I’ve come to realize that you can absolutely try your very best, and someone will complain. Order 10 different kinds of pizza for an office pizza party, including no cheese for the person who doesn’t eat much fat, vegan, meat-lovers, white sauce instead of red, and someone will complain there’s no pepperoni, anchovy and olive pizza.

        You organize events at work with the realization that out of 100 people, maybe 5 will thank you, most won’t have any idea that you did more than make a few phone calls so they don’t think thanks are necessary, and about 20% will complain about the event until the next event.

        1. CVM*

          I am a really big fan about the ethos where I work:

          Nobody can agree on the best way to have a celebration, but everybody likes getting the day off work.

    2. xarcady*

      Streamline the whole thing. I suspect trying to cancel all the celebrations would upset some people, but you could try going to one celebration a month. One cake, and announce all the birthdays/new babies/weddings then. Everyone gets exact the same treatment, and hopefully the same size piece of cake.

      If gifts are absolutely necessary (I’d try to get out of that), come up with one gift for each occasion and give that–new baby=three packs of diapers and a gift card to Babies R Us, retirement=a clock, etc. Or at least designate a set amount to be spent on each gift.

      Or outsource it. Are there a few rabid celebrators in your department who would be comfortable as a Social Committee? Give them a budget and the warning that what they do for one person must be done for all (no playing favorites) and let them do the work.

      And you can tell the new Social Committee that they can only have two or three things for the holidays–one gift exchange, one decoration contest, one party. You are the manager; you get to set the rules.

      Another thought for the holidays is to announce a cutback on the celebrating, and turn the annual gift exchange into buying presents for a charity to distribute, or something like that. Employees who complain can be told that they are free to exchange gifts with each other if they want, there just won’t be a big, official gift exchange party. We did this at OldJob–the owner signed up the company to sponsor one family for gifts. They collected enough that the organization was able to give gifts to two other families, as well.

    3. Devil's Avocado*

      Yes! The responses on the gift giving post from last night had me feeling especially Scroogey. It seems like people read way too much into everything, and are basically looking for reasons to be offended by what gift they did (or didn’t get). Total minefield.

  20. Sunflower*

    We have a new admin in our department who just graduated college in the spring. She sits next to me so I am the first person she goes to with questions or comments about the processes of our office. I’ve never worked with someone in their first professional position and I’m having difficulty explaining some things to her. The biggest ones would be

    1. Why the company doesn’t give us all available information all the time/constant updates. She started a week before they announced the hire of a new Chief of our department. No one told her that she would be supporting this person(I assume because the position was vacant at the time). I’m really not sure why- I assume because there just isn’t time to give constant updates and if you throw out too many possible scenarios, that just seems like a disaster of wrong information being passed around and upset employees. Any other suggestions?

    2. That her job description subject to change. Everytime she is tasked to do something that is slightly out of her job description, she becomes upset that no one told her in the interview that she would have to do that. She has also said that ‘she didn’t sign up to be a secretary'(I don’t know a ton about the difference between a secretary and an admin but it seems like she does some secretarial tasks like submitting expense and scheduling meetings but she also has other projects her boss or someone else in the dept gives her.)

    These are just the big things but I could use advice on general things to say when what I want to say is ‘Sorry these are just the way things are!’

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I don’t know what to suggest for point #1, but I would redirect her on point #2 and tell her to talk to her boss about this kind of stuff. It’s not your job to explain the expectations of her role. If you wanted to say something in the moment, you could respond with something like, “In this role, as in most professional roles, job duties are evolving and part of the expectation is that you will pitch in on tasks as needed. If you have concerns about your duties, I would speak to [Supervisor] about them.”

      I’m not sure what she thought being an “admin” was, because I have been some version of an admin a few times in my life and they all involved some degree of “secretarial” tasks, whether that meant managing someone’s calendar or answering phone lines or whatever. The point of an admin is to make a person or a department’s work life easier, and sometimes those tasks are what are involved.

    2. Dawn*

      She’s a blank slate and knows nothing about the working world- so cut her huuuuuge amounts of slack! For point 1, I think it’s fine to just point out that’s how it is where you work. Be sure to say that some companies are super communicative and some are not, and that one of the things you just have to do as an employee is get to know how your employer operates. For point 2, keep in mind that for the last however many years of her life she’s existed in a “Here is your class schedule. Here are the times that you will go to and from class. Here is your reading list. Here is your homework. This is when your homework is due. This is how you should format your homework. No you cannot go to the bathroom unless you ask.” Transitioning from that to the working world where a good employee has to be flexible is tough! Keep that in mind as you talk to her about typical expectations of employees and how the working world is vs the school world.

    3. Sadsack*

      I don’t see a problem with you saying that! Nicely, of course. You could say that we all end up working on things occasionally that we don’t expect, but it helps to remind yourself that you are gaining new skills and experience that way.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I wonder if she didn’t actually understand what an admin role is, because it is indeed often quite secretarial in nature. Honestly, I’d be pretty blunt with her and just say, “Admin roles usually include secretarial-type work. It’s part of what the job is.”

      Frankly, I’d also say, “It sounds like you’re taken aback by some of what you’re encountering here, but this is pretty normal work stuff; this is how offices run.”

      Reading in between the lines, she sounds unusually negative for someone who should be in learning mode.

    5. AnonAcademic*

      What I do is use my experience as a reference point – something like “I remember when Beatrice was the admin here/at my last company, she had to restock copy paper all the time – I think that falls under ‘other duties as assigned.'” In my case I *was* the admin once (well, my field’s equivalent) so I just say something like “yeah I remember having to do that, those tasks are a pain but it’s just part of the job.”

      I’m not sure how she doesn’t realize that “administrative assistant” is basically an updated term for “secretary”…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I’d be curious to find out what she thought the job would be. I bet if pressed, she’s not even sure what she expected. I think she naive about the work world, but, she thinks you are a friendly person who will help.

    6. Anonsie*

      Agreeing with everyone else on point #2, but also… Was the job listing she applied to/the job title she has all dressed up to make the role sound more technical or managerial than it actually is? Because I see this with admin jobs all the time. They really want someone to do secretarial work, but they gussy up the title and description to make it sound like you’re much closer to the work you’re supporting than you actually would be. I wonder if your company does this and she’s too new to the whole thing to have read between the lines.

    7. Ama*

      I could see being upset about number 1 depending on how she found out — i.e. did the Chief get introduced to her as “here’s Jane, she’ll be assisting you” and that’s the first she heard of it? I could see that just being an oversight because, as you say, the position was vacant when she was hired. But if she was called in to her boss’s office and told about it ahead of time it seems a little much.

      But yeah, the nature of being an admin (I was one for a long time) is that the “other duties as assigned” portion of the job description is a good chunk of what you end up doing day-to-day.

    8. Mando Diao*

      For #2, you could tell her that, in the working world, it’s assumed that all admin roles are quasi-secretarial, which is why those responsibilities and tasks might not have been stated outright. “Everyone pretty much knows that this is how admin roles work. Either learn to accept these tasks, or don’t apply for admin roles the next time you’re job hunting.” Be nicer if you want, or not.

      Also, it sounds like she’s taking the “women should decline to do housekeeping stuff” too literally, given that she accepted the admin position. She needs to be reminded that you can’t brush of the “women’s work” when it’s your job to do it, regardless of gender.

  21. Long-Winded UPDATE!*

    I wanted to thank everyone for the advice last week (Summary: I like my current job fine and had planned to stay longer, but had two offers both at good companies with better pay, but I was iffy on the actual work. A is similar to what I’m doing, B is a gigantic company doing different work) and give an update:
    I went with B – The second interview was SPECTACULAR. I really liked the people I met; and after hearing more, the work is more related to my long-term goals than I initially thought. The pay/perks/benefits are great – better base pay, plus overtime and two annual bonuses, very supportive of professional development, they encourage people to stay in the company but move within departments/project types (even different office locations) if they want a change.
    They are also being really great about scheduling – I’m not starting until the new year, so I can give 4 weeks notice at my current job, finish out a big deadline and relax over the holidays.
    Thanks for all the input, and here’s to good changes in the new year!

  22. Crispy*

    How can you tell if you’re burnt out or just lazy? Also, how can you tell as a manager if your employee is burnt out or lazy?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I think burnt out is something that is relatively temporary whereas laziness is more of a character trait. (I mean, I know sometimes I am being lazy, but I’m not a lazy person.). So it depends on what you know about this individual and yourself and how they’ve been in the past.

      1. Anna*

        I consider myself situationally lazy. I can get a project done, no problem. But I suck at keeping my house picked up. I would much rather catch up on the DVR than vacuum. I need to figure out a way to make the vacuuming more like an event-planning project.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          Oh, I’m the same way. I’m SO motivated at work (although I do have bouts of laziness) but not motivated at all to keep up with cleaning.

    2. Merry and Bright*

      Having been in this position myself (though not in current job) I think it depends on whether that’s your usual feeling. If you felt energised and enthusiastic before, then I’d say it was definitely burnout. Laziness is more to do with your general attitude to your work.

      As to an employee, it’s probably trickier to decide but has their behaviour or attitude changed? It might need a chat or a way to remotivate them. But I’d say history is probably key.

    3. Argh!*

      As a manager, all I can do is hold an employee to expectations. I can initiate a conversation about ways to enhance the job, but there are limits to how much I can change an employee’s work duties. giving someone a higher level of responsibility would be exploitive and contrary to our policy. I supervise someone who I believe is both burnt-out and lazy, or rather has a bad habit of procrastination, and goofs off rather than do something that could take 10 minutes.

      As a manager, I can’t tell him to leave, and he does just enough to keep me from being able to fire him. It’s up to him to move on if the job has lost his interest.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I can tell when I am burnt out when I start muttering “screw it”. Of course, I end up doing what needs to be done but it’s not without a few choice words. Laziness has a lot less energy/fire to it, and usually involves statements that start with “I don’t wanna…” or “I just don’t feel like it…” Laziness seems to involve apathy, at least to me.

      Employees. A burned out employee will have flickers of her old self. You will see her have brilliant moments once in a while. A lazy employee will flat line, no matter what you try.

      If you are not familiar with the person and what “normal” is for the person, then that is a little tougher. Burned out people will most times try to some extent. Sometimes burned out people will be willing to talk out some issues and you realize from what they are telling you that they have been through the mill and they are fed up. You recognize the burn out and the causes of it.
      Conversely, a truly lazy person does not really respond to anything. You coach and counsel and not much changes or maybe it changes for a short spell then reverts. I have only worked with a few truly lazy people. In the extreme, they were non-responsive to most prompts, they were almost non-interactive and they did not really care if they got fired. Those people were extreme, though.

      One last clue: A burned out employee probably has a bank of accumulated knowledge that only comes from hands on experience. They are able to talk at length and with detail. A lazy employee probably cannot have that type of in depth conversation.

  23. AlwaysAnon*

    I’ve redone my resume multiple times and finally gotten it to a point where I like it but at the same time I only have 2 freelance jobs listed (I freelance fulltime with multiple different companies). The reason I listed only 2 originally is because I work with them the most and then fill in the blank days with other random companies. I feel like I should list the other companies somehow but I don’t like the look of my resume when I do so. Also I have a website/portfolio so I feel like employers can figure out that I have freelanced on multiple jobs that way but I’m not sure. Any input?

    1. CM*

      Maybe you could have another item for “Additional Work” and list the other companies and projects under that?

  24. Meg Murry*

    Need advice on how to approach this situation, specifically whether I should ask for a Title bump, more money (and how much) and how best to time it? Sorry for the novel.

    I kinda, sorta got a promotion yesterday. My boss mentioned at my mid-year review (which only happened a few weeks ago because we are so behind) that one of the next steps for me would be to start getting some “supervisory responsibility”. Well, last week we hired a new technician (who had already been working here on a part time, temporary basis) and yesterday during a group meeting, the big boss announced that we were changing up our org structure, and the technician would be reporting to me, and another person also got moved to report to someone else. We were also told some of our responsibilities would be changing, and we were all going to be pushed to grow and take on more responsibilities.

    However, nothing else was said of it other than “we’ll help get you and the other newly appointed supervisor some training on being supervisors”. I’m trying to decide if I should ask for a title bump and/or a pay raise now, or if I should wait for my end of year review and bring it up then (which will only be in a month or so if we actually do them before the end of the year), and if I do, what I should ask for.

    My title now is Senior Teapot Researcher, which is a pretty respectable title in and of itself – in my industry, one doesn’t usually get the word “Senior” until at least 10 years of experience, at some of the larger companies usually not until 15 years. At some of the larger companies in this area, the first level supervisor holds the title “Group Leader” or “Team Leader” – but I’m not sure that actually sounds like a step up to me in this case, and in my situation the majority of my day will still be spent as a “do-er” as a Teapot Researcher. The other person that is also being bumped up to supervisor already has the title “manager”, because he was managing a program. Should I ask to be “Senior Researcher and Manager” or “Senior Researcher and Group Lead”. FWIW, the big boss’s title is Executive Director, and my boss’s title is Research Manager.

    And then there is money. How much of a bump would you expect when you start throwing supervisory duties in the mix? I have been an unofficial supervisor/mentor in the past, where I was generally involved in assigning a person’s day to day tasks but I’ve never had to have primary responsibility for reviews, vacation requests, etc. And the new hire is fresh from college, so he’s going to need a decent amount of training/mentoring in our industry and office life in general, so I am anticipating having to have at least a couple of “you know, in a professional office, you really shouldn’t X” conversations – just because he just doesn’t know these things yet, so there will be a fair amount of handholding/babysitting until he’s on his feet.

    I’m still relatively new to this job (just over 6 months), so I haven’t even had a formal review or raise yet, so I don’t know how that usually goes around here – if they are reasonably generous with annual increases or if I really have to go in and advocate hard for every fraction of a percent. I’ve never been great at negotiating or advocating for myself, but I feel like if I don’t do it I’m shortchanging myself – and falling into the “women don’t get more money because they don’t ask for it” stereotype. These new responsibilities could potentially be a lot more stress and juggling for me. Do I ask now, at my upcoming review (after a few weeks of doing the job, but not enough time to have any results to show for it), or after I have a few months of results to show what I’ve accomplished?

    1. Bethy*

      I’m in a similar situation (many additional responsibilities, although non-supervisory) and I wish I’d asked for the raise straight out. It’s been almost six months of doing effectively twice the work at the same rate and in the same amount of hours because we’re not really allowed overtime. If I could do it again I’d just ask “What sort of additional compensation will go along with this?” as if it’s a given, instead of asking if something CAN be done.

      1. Red*

        I did this – asked whether my expanding role would receive a title increase/raise — and the answer was no. I kinda expected it, but I was glad for the confirmation.

        (I immediately gave my notice.)

  25. AnotherFed*

    In the past week, I’ve had to handle two cases of sleeping in meetings and one of blatantly playing phone games and ignoring the meeting… all from people on my team in small meetings that required their input. Newbies these days!

    What is the most unprofessional or ridiculous behavior you’ve seen from new employees?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Employee came to work in his pajamas. “I hardly ever get up from my desk. No one sees me. Why should I get dressed?” When he was told he had to go home and change, he opened his desk and he had a whole wardrobe hidden away. Shirts, shoes, socks, the whole shebang.
      He was eventually canned.

      1. AnotherFed*

        I knew someone here would be able to provide some perspective on how much worse it could be, and wow, that did not disappoint.

        Were they fuzzy? Did he have slippers, too?

            1. Dynamic Beige*

              I’m telling you, the adult Onesie is a thing. I had no idea it was a thing until I attended this conference a few months ago and one of the speakers was going on about her Onesie and how she was going to present in it in a pre-conference Q&A — she was joking but my reaction was “oh noes! this cannot be a thing!” [face of horror] And it was. She had photos. I mean, I’ve joked about buying a Slanket or a gross of Snuggies and starting my own religion but it was a joke, man! Not something I am actually going to do!

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I would get one if I could find one that fits. Unfortunately, I’m too tall for most women’s clothing. I wouldn’t mind buying the men’s if it had something I wanted–I’d just sew up any “openings.” :)

              2. Liza*

                Earlier this week I saw a woman walking down the sidewalk in a onesie! She looked like it was a deliberate put-together look, not a “can’t be arsed to put on clothes so here I am in my sweaty pajamas” occasion. I hadn’t realized anyone would wear them outside their house, but having seen her, now I know one can!

              3. TinyPjM*

                For those interested, check out Kigurumi.com! Super floofy and comfortable and cute.

                If you know…you like that kind of thing…

        2. Merry and Bright*

          I’ve read about supermarkets banning customers from wearing pyjamas while shopping. But wearing them to the office? What the?

        3. Rowan*

          I, uh, have slippers for my office. Very informal dress code, very cold office. I put shoes on if I leave the room. My director thinks it’s great!

    2. Christy*

      Oh man, when I was new I could NOT stay awake in meetings. I had to get up and walk around or take bathroom breaks because otherwise I’d be asleep. It was awful. I’ve finally gotten better about it.

      1. CM*

        I still can’t stay awake in meetings, no matter how interested I am in the subject matter… :( I know it seems terribly unprofessional, but I have never been able to control this, and have tried the full gamut of remedies like getting up and walking around, pretending to drop something, sticking something sharp into my hand, eating, drinking, taking notes… I started with falling asleep in class during high school and 20+ years later have not managed to stop doing this. It’s completely involuntary.

          1. Anonsie*

            Eh. I mean. Inasmuchas everything your body does is medical, not everything your body does is a medical “issue” that needs attention or even has options available for it. Which I always feel the need to tell people because I feel like the prevailing attitude is that if your body does something off, it can be fixed, so if you only got medical attention you wouldn’t have a problem, therefore if you have a problem it’s your own fault for not fixing it.

            For what it’s worth, I had this problem as well and dropped some stacks on extensive testing and monitoring from a big fancy sleep lab and some other specialists over many months to find… “Well you fall asleep more easily than normal but we don’t know why, so you should consider stimulants like caffeine in the morning.”

        2. Dynamic Beige*

          I get the same way when it comes to using a book to learn something new, like a software program. I can be all full of energy and eager to get down to it, but within 15 minutes of opening the book, my eyelids start to droop. I seriously doubt it’s some sort of sleep issue, it’s probably a psychological one or maybe a case of not having the “right” kind of stimulation appropriate for how I need to learn. I’ve tried different chairs, lights, time of day… it’s like my brain is programmed to think of book reading as entertainment only.

          1. Christy*

            Oh my gosh, same here. Or like training videos too! I pretty much require in-person learning. The only thing that helps me is taking copious notes.

      2. Anxa*

        This scares me so much. I feel like I spent most of my college lectures fighting the urge to sleep or drift off. I don’t mean to be tired (sometimes it’s lack of sleep) or not pay attention, but I wish it was easier to stay awake and alert during the daytime.

      3. Kelly L.*

        I almost fell asleep in a meeting where we’d invited a higher-up, a few months ago. Meeting was right after lunch, and the room was toasty warm. I was glad I was seated out of the higher-up’s line of sight, because I’m sure you could see on my face, and I was just relieved no one came up to me afterward like “You know you snored for a second, right?”

    4. Blue Anne*

      Christmas Secret Santa. A new grad was selected as the secret santa for a woman in the office who was getting married soon. He got her a box of chocolates shaped like penises.

    5. Not Today Satan*

      How did you respond to the phone games? I’m a social worker and have clients on their cell phones all the time…. The worst part is, I’ll ask them to put it away and then they just hide it in their laps like they’re in high school or something. I never know what to say at that point because like we’re both adults… it drives me crazy.

      1. Anxa*

        Whoa.

        I actually work with college students, a good number of them in the 17-20 year old range, and I’ve never had anyone use their phone while meeting with me (unless to pick up a call from their children or their ride–which I encourage)

      2. AnotherFed*

        I told him to cut it out and never do it again, because it’s trashes his reputation and reflects badly on his whole team. It’s also against our security policy to even have a cell phone in certain places, so there’s the extra kick that if someone decided to enforce the letter of that rule, security could confiscate his phone.

      3. AnonAcademic*

        I have research participants who do this. I usually direct them to leave their bag/jacket on a chair in the corner of the room rather than holding onto them so they are physically separated from their phone. If they pull a phone out of their pocket I ask “do you need a break to take a call?” and if they don’t get the hint, “We can wait till you’re done with that to get started but it might make things run late” with a smile. I’ve never had to get to the “please put away your phone, we need your full attention on this” point but that would be my next step. Our experimental results aren’t valid if participants are distracted while they’re in session so it’s better to actually turn them away/reschedule then let them use phones during the session.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        My boss is adamant about cell phones. No cells, NO exceptions. I start saying it before people make the mistake. “If you need to use your cell, you will need to step outside.” Telling people before it happens can be helpful.
        In one special situation, I told people that there would be no cell phones allowed. I told them to turn off their phone and put the phone where it will not distract them.
        From my perspective it is very helpful to have a boss that has zero tolerance for cells and has no problem putting her foot down.

        I am not clear if you are meeting clients in your office or in random places. If it’s your office you could put a sign in plain sight that says “no cells”. Then redundantly, before you start your conversation, say that your conversation requires the commitment of their total attention. This means that you need them to turn off their phones and put their phones away. If you are meeting them in random places you could start the meeting by saying that the conversation is important and it will need their undivided attention. Ask them to turn off their phones. If they persist in playing with the phones under the table/desk ask them to turn the phone off and set it on the table in plain sight of the both of you.

        While you are both adults, they are in need of the services you are offering. Their persistence in using the phone after being asked not to, changes the rules of the game. Stress that you are there to help them and you cannot be of total value to them if they are playing with their cells. Think of it this way, you go to a lawyer to get legal advice. You sit there and play with your cell the entire time. What do you think that lawyer is going to do/say? He is going to talk about how he is willing to help you but he cannot help you if you are not willing to commit your total attention to the conversation. The lawyer is the leader in the conversation. Likewise, you as a social worker are the leader in the conversation. Assume you have the authority/clout to expect their full attention. Make that assumption and see what happens next. It should reduce your problem substantially.

    6. Short and Stout*

      The only person I’ve seen sleeping in a meeting lately was a senior manager one level below director. Our director was talking at the time :)

    7. Emmie*

      I had an upset senior director raise her double vertical fists in the air and pound them in her lap with an accompanying face contortion like a 2 year old having a tantrum over a toy! She was upset about editing a document.

    8. thunderbird*

      Intern (paid) always on his phone, including during meetings. Wore the same sweatpants frequently (most days of the week). Was an aggressive gum chewer, and made a lot of bodily noises (sinus related). Brought a full meal to a meeting after our catered lunch (a full second helping) and slurped and inhaled it. Also provided pretty low quality work.

    9. Ama*

      Are they just out of college? Because that sounds to me like people who haven’t grasped the difference between “work meeting” and “college class” yet.

      1. Allison*

        I don’t say this often, but that’s a fairly obvious difference. Even I knew that, in my internships during college, phone use during meetings was a huge no-no. I don’t even take my phone with me to meetings, even now, years out of college.

      2. Lindsay J*

        Every college class I had pretty much hammered into us that playing with our phones while the professor (or anyone else) was speaking was rude and that we shouldn’t do it. Some people did it anyway (at least they did it in the classes where their phone wouldn’t be confiscated outright) but I don’t think this is a nobody ever told them/they don’t know any better type of thing. It’s just an inconsiderate person type of thing.

    10. Omne*

      A new employee surfing job search websites for hours on the second day of classroom training while an instructor was speaking. On the training computer we provided.

      I don’t think they’re going to be putting their 4 day job on their resume.

    11. Argh!*

      I attended a training session and one employee sat at the back with his laptop open, and the sound on! Every time he got an e-mail the e-mail chime went off, and he got a LOT of e-mails. He could at least have reduced the volume. And the trainer didn’t say anything! I was incredulous.

      1. Noah*

        I had a new coworker who did this in our open plan office. Every 5-10 minutes was an email ding. So annoying. Finally told him to turn the sound off, please.

    12. Rebecca in Dallas*

      When I was in college, I worked for a high end department store. They had a really extensive training program for the sales people, which I actually thought was really interesting. It was a class of probably 12 new people, so fairly small. We had VP’s from different areas (buying, HR, PR) come and speak to us as well as sales training over several days (9am-5pm each day). One girl fell asleep while one of the VP’s was talking. It was a small enough group that he noticed and went over and woke her up! I think she wanted the floor to swallow her.

      In that same class (different day), one of the guys started gathering up his stuff at 3:45, while our trainer was in the middle of explaining something. She said something to him and he said, “Well, I have to go to the bank and they close at 4.” And just walked out! He was there again the next day I think but then I never saw him again.

    13. MT*

      Obviously this is very job-specific, but I’ve had way more success engaging the technology than trying to suppress it.
      I work at an undergraduate university, and for many of our student workers, this is their first job. I have no desire to babysit, to scold, to hush, or to in general remind myself of a red-faced grade school administrator. So instead I just have them use their smartphones/laptops to engage in various parts of the meeting – take a moment to put your names on the calendar for projects you can work, let’s update the skill sheet, let’s open up the incident report, etc.

      A projector and flexible screen-sharing helps encourage staying focused. ;)

    14. NicoleK*

      BEC coworker is always going on and on about “busy” she is. Yet, she wants to work on tasks that are not a priority, no one has requested her to complete the tasks, or the tasks are not necessary, because she finds them interesting.

  26. Lizzy*

    I keep getting reminded why my recent layoff from ex-job has been such a blessing.

    I spoke with a former coworker the other day and apparently one of the Board members at ex-job thought it would be a brilliant idea to have a competitor from the organization’s youth competition perform all day long at his private Christmas party. On Christmas day.

    Some background information: ex-job has an annual competition for young musicians ages 5-18 to perform classical music pieces on specific instrument categories (i.e. piano and string instruments). Winner’s receive scholarship money and opportunities to perform at high profile events. This is ex-job’s flagship program that founded the organization. For the record, these high profile events usually do not mean someone’s private party.

    So apparently some kid is expected to give up his or her Christmas to perform at some swanky Christmas party and be excited at the opportunity to perform for such prestigious people as the Lannisters — and at their house too. No one, from the Board President to my ex-supervisor, has told this Board member and his wife that this is probably not a good idea. They are all humoring this request by having my coworker ask around. Unsurprisingly, she’s been getting a lot of “Hell no!” and ‘Umm, excuse me?!” responses from parents.

    I joked with my former coworker that she should suggest to the Lannisters to offer a college scholarship because there is no other reason someone would want to do this otherwise. This is just one of many examples of what was wrong with ex-job.

    2. Ama*

      Uuuuuuuugh. This is even worse than the grad school where we almost had a donor force us to figure out how to get a grand piano into our library so we could have live piano music at our holiday party –ONE day a year. Did I mention our library was on the second floor, with no freight elevator leading to it?

      I suspect they had your coworker ask around because they knew no one would say yes, and could thus say “hey we tried, sorry!” But yeah it would have probably been better if someone could have politely pointed out that the competition winners would likely want to spend Christmas Day with their own families.

      1. Lizzy*

        I am willing to bet that donor had the money to figure out the logistics for that piano. Or better yet: rent a venue with piano already present.

        It is the same thing in my story: the Lannisters can afford to pay a professional (adult) musician who not mind the gig, instead of convincing some 10-year-old’s family how “prestigious” this gig is. But sadly these people are too selfish and are use to being indulged by others around them.

        1. Ama*

          Oh, yes — one of the major reasons I left that job was that she had a tendency to treat our school like her dollhouse (her foundation was at the time contributing a considerable portion of our budget) — always ready to buy new furniture or tend to the aesthetics of the place, while killing plans that would have improved the day-to-day operations (such as appropriate staffing levels).

  27. Gillian*

    Thanks to everyone who gave me advice about my internal interview with my current manager! I think it helped – had the interview on Tuesday and it felt like it went as well as it could have. I was able to bring up points/situations about my work that she hadn’t been aware of that I wouldn’t have thought of without your advice, so hopefully that’s a point in my favor!

  28. Cat Mechanic*

    Should I take FMLA leave from a job I’m planning to leave regardless? I have known I am not a good fit for my job for the past year-plus and have been actively job-searching ever since. In the past two weeks, someone inside/outside of my department has taken drastic steps to try to improve the work/life balance for the department. My boss is not completely on board; she’s the kind of person who’s a nice woman but not great as a manager, so I doubt anything will improve in the long term. (Plus, she’s a lifer.)

    Three months ago, I began having health problems that my doctor and I are certain are linked to my job. These health problems are affecting both my job performance and quality of life significantly. My doctor is the one who mentioned FMLA, which my employer complies with.

    I’m honestly questioning my ability to jump right into another job after this one without time to recover first at this point, which makes me really upset, so the decision to take FMLA or outright leave this job is weighing heavily on me because it’s an urgent decision.

    I’m job-searching in a very competitive field; I’m getting interviews but no offers, and it’s just not going as quickly as I hoped. I would prefer not to quit this job and have a gap on my resume, but perhaps that would be OK for a health reason. Would it be dishonest to go on FMLA while knowing I might not return or might return but for a short time?

    1. fposte*

      I think if you need leave, you need leave. You will need to identify an anticipated return date, for obvious reasons, and if you’re interested in references from the current job, it’s to your advantage to handle this as helpfully to them as possible, too.

      You do need to be totally on top of the rules for whatever insurance, STD, etc., you’d be expecting income and health coverage from. I’m vaguely remembering something where you might get stuck paying the employer’s part of your insurance, but I’m not finding it so I could be making it up–I’ll see if I can pin it down or if anybody else knows what I’m thinking of.

      1. fposte*

        Found it:

        In addition, the employer may require the employee to repay the employer’s share of the premium payment if the employee fails to return to work following the FMLA leave unless the employee does not return because
        of circumstances that are beyond the employee’s control, including a FMLA-qualifying medical event.

      2. Cat Mechanic*

        Thank you. I’ve tried to learn the FMLA quickly (like, starting yesterday) because I thought our smallish place wouldn’t even be bound by it. But it all seems silly now that I’ve written this comment because I *do* need to leave. I can go on my husband’s health insurance. I *do* need a reference from this job. I am confusing my feelings of desperately wanting to leave a bad fit with my valid reason of needing to leave for a health reason (that is backed up by my doctor). I can use the health reason to resign and leave it at that.

        My thoughts are currently jumbled from exhaustion. I have all of next week off from work and hope my mind will clear so I can make this decision.

        1. fposte*

          That seems like a wise way to approach it, and I think you’re making a reasonable point that you can just leave for health reasons, too. I hope the week gives you rest and that you then can make a decision that you’re comfortable with.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      That would be unpaid leave, right? The only concern would be burning bridges for the future, I think — if your boss would still be a good reference for you if you didn’t come back from leave.

    3. Argh!*

      FMLA would protect you but you may also have a worker’s comp claim. FMLA is less likely to backfire on you.

      1. Cat Mechanic*

        Could you explain what protection FMLA would be offering? I’m not sure workers’ comp would figure into this situation — it’s all internally caused by the stress of being in a job that is a spectacularly bad fit.

        1. fposte*

          I think Argh! is probably referring to the fact that FMLA gives you job protection. But if you’re leaving, that’s not such an important thing.

          It’s also not an either/or; FMLA doesn’t give you any money, after all, just job protection, so if you’re out on a worker’s comp claim you can also be on FMLA.

  29. asteramella*

    I’m in the midst of job-hunting, and I’ve reached the point of crying in my car on my commute home. :(

    I work in a writing- and editing-related role in an unrelated industry–maybe 30% of my time is spent writing. I’d like to transition to a role that focuses more time on writing and editing. I’ve been applying for copywriting and copy editing jobs at ad firms, and on the lookout for grant writing positions, though paid opportunities for those are few and far between. My city doesn’t have much in the way of publishing or journalism right now.

    AAMers in writing-heavy jobs, would you recommend your role or industry to someone who wants to write and/or edit full-time and isn’t picky about genre or topic?

    1. YourUnfriendlyPhlebotomist*

      I have a $14 membership to FlexJobs.com there seems to be a lot of remote writing jobs but I don’t know how legit they are as I just use them for the occasional Photoshop gig but maybe google will have input on how useful that site is for writers?

    2. ElCee*

      TBH? Not really. General editorial is such a crowded field and the pay is not great. I’m trying to get out, LOL. Have you thought about technical writing and editing? in my area those almost always require a security clearance to even apply, but this may not be such a problem in other cities. The pay is much better for these and the job title is pretty broad.

    3. Ryan the TempAnon*

      I work at a company that edits journal articles for researchers whose first language isn’t English but who want to submit articles to English-language journals. There are…I don’t know exactly how many of these companies there are, but there are multiple ones. Some of them would probably require moving, but I think some might be work-from-home or more flexible. Googling “academic editor jobs” (what this position is normally called, as far as I can tell) brings up some companies, and another thing you can do is look at the submission guidelines for particular journals, especially in your areas of interest (because it’s so much nicer when you’re interested in the topic). Elsevier hosts lots of journals, as does Wiley Online and one other place I’m blanking on right now, so if you go and look at some of those guidelines you’ll see that they’ll have a note somewhere that says “If you’re not a native English speaker, we recommend you use [academic editing service] before submitting to improve your chances.”

      If you enjoy the kind of job where everything is the same every day, then you might enjoy this kind of work. I hate it because I’m constantly itching for action, but my day is nothing but editing (no meetings, no interactions with clients, just editing), which it sounds like you might like. It can also be really frustrating when you get a paper that’s really not well written at all or that’s really out of your area of expertise (and this is pretty much a guarantee, at least at my company–my background is in the humanities, but I’ve had to edit hardcore engineering papers despite never even setting foot in the engineering building on campus when I was in college), and it’s crucial to be familiar with different journal styles (APA, AMA, Chicago, etc.). However, I will say that even though this work isn’t for me at all, my coworkers really seem to enjoy it, so depending on your personality, you might too.

    4. Gwen*

      I’m in the in-house copywriter at a destination marketing organization, and I write pretty much constantly. My job does involve some other general content duties (managing a web calendar, primarily), but other than that it’s pretty much all writing and proofing. I’m the only dedicated writer on staff, so if the words need to get written, I’m the one they come to. It can be overwhelming sometimes, but overall I really enjoy that I get to write about why my city (which I genuinely love) is great for a living. I would say any kind of in-house content/copywriter role would probably be pretty similar.

        1. Gwen*

          It is! Not a lot of jobs center around writing up articles about the best craft cocktails in town ;) Plus you get to check out a lot of cool stuff (new museum exhibits, plays) for cheap/free. Tourism is a pretty cool industry that I never had considered/heard of while I was in school.

            1. Gwen*

              Content & Copywriting Specialist! It might not be under that exact name, but most convention & visitors bureaus/destination marketing organizations will have someone on staff doing this in some form. I do web copy, blogs, newsletters, occasionally ad copy (we do work with an agency on most of our advertising), the odd stuff for social media.

    5. EmmBee*

      Have you tried corporate communications roles? From internal comms to social media to media relations, those jobs are all writing-heavy. And most companies have at least a small comms team. (Note: this could be branded as PR.)

    6. Ad Astra*

      I’ve actually found I kind of enjoy doing internal communications in the financial industry. The major downside is that since almost nobody at the company has a background in writing or editing, I don’t really have any mentors who can help me become a stronger writer or editor. But that might not be the case at every company, so I’d definitely evaluate that on an individual basis.

    7. Ama*

      I work in the non-profit sector for an organization that funds research in a specific disease, and we have several types of writing heavy jobs (we’re small so many of ours, mine included, are about 50% writing and 50% some other task, but I believe larger orgs have positions with higher writing/editing positions). These include:
      – producing content about our grantees, research developments, and the patients we’ve helped for our website and print publications
      – managing our social media accounts
      -grant writing (at our org we don’t have one dedicated grant writer, each department has a role that does grant writing for their own programs)
      – producing content for our fundraising appeals
      – PR tasks, (writing press releases, etc.)

      When I first decided to pursue writing/editing as a career, I had no idea there were so many opportunities at non-profit orgs and I love it here. (To be fair it helps that, though we’re a science focused org, our CEO has a background in communications so she understands the importance of producing strong content.)

    8. Argh!*

      Having cried in the car commuting both to and from a horrible job, I found I had to leave it (fortunately they gave me severence) and clear my head. I wound up moving to another city for a job more in my skillset. I decided the job was more important than location, which was a very hard decision.

    9. Development professional*

      Not sure what city you’re in, but I’m astonished that you aren’t seeing grant writing openings that are paid (of course, there are always small non-profits seeking volunteers for this, but I digress…) because there is definitely demand.

      I wonder if you’re looking in the right places to find grant writing positions? Remember that this is considered a fundraising/development/advancement job so be looking in those categories on the sites you’re searching. Remember also that these are non-profit jobs by definition, a sector that uses some of its own job boards. Try: idealist.org, Association of Fundraising Professionals, Chronicle of Philanthropy, Philanthropy News Digest (a service of the Foundation Center). Also check out the jobs page of your local colleges and universities, as their advancement departments will also hire grant writers and other writers for fundraising purposes.

      Other titles that you should look for that are grant writing but might be called: Development Coordinator, Foundation Relations Associate/Coordinator.

      Another off-the-wall idea, if you’re open to freelancing, is to seek out academics/scientists who are responsible for writing their own grants but need help. Anyone in a research lab is going to fall into that category.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Whoops, that’s what I get for not refreshing before writing! What Development Professional said!

    10. College Career Counselor*

      Have you looked at university communications/PR offices? If you have grantwriting experience already, you could look at corporate and foundation relations departments in university advancement divisions. If so, I’d look at the chronicle of philanthropy, philanthropy journal and the CASE (Council for Advancement & Support of Education) website (not to mention higheredjobs, the chronicle of higher education and other higher ed job sites).

    11. Mando Diao*

      I work in marketing (think blogging, social media, email blasts), and while I like the job itself (it’s easy, I’m good at it, my coworkers and manager are great to work with), I don’t think there’s much of a future in dedicated marketing firms or departments.

  30. Sarak*

    What kind of accounting knowledge would I need to do the books and taxes for an independent contractor/consultant, and what kind of courses would get me there?

    One option for my family’s future plans would involve moving to a lower cost-of-living area and my husband hanging out his shingle as a consultant. If he did, I’d like to be able to handle the billing and taxes, but I don’t really know where I’d start. I know much of that information is available online, but I tend to find it a lot easier to motivate myself from classes than self-study and CC courses are pretty cheap. I’m not interested in becoming a fully-fledged accountant, just enough knowledge to do this responsibly and effectively.

    (I know there are a LOT of other considerations before making this sort of choice, but this was one piece I did t even know where to start thinking about.)

    2. GG*

      I can’t speak about doing taxes, but I’ve been doing bookkeeping at the small business level just shy of 20 years. Aside from having taken one accounting principles class in college, I’m entirely self-taught. I’ve almost always used QuickBooks (which is a great tool, and I heartily recommend it) and when I first started doing this kind of work I just did a lot of reading the QB manual and looking stuff up online. In fact, last time I had to search out an answer I discovered that in addition to articles, there are now also some great videos that take you step-by-step through assorted tasks.

      On a whim I also just googled “Bookkeeping for Dummies”, and yep, it exists. I suspect it would be a great starting point.

    3. Meg Murry*

      I think doing the bookkeeping and billing would probably be pretty straightforward with a few community college classes. Taxes are a different beast, and I would suggest hiring an actual accountant for the first few years of the business, and then after that you could follow the same process as the accountant (filling out the same forms, etc).

      My husband runs his own business with his father, and does all the billing and taxes. He has a degree in Accounting and Business Administration, however he said most of the paperwork/accounting he is doing is the work taught in accounting 101 and 201 – he’s not doing anything all that complicated. Before my husband came on board, my FIL did everything by hand (handwritten invoices with carbon copy duplicates, handwritten checkbook ledger, etc), and he would just give the accountant a shoebox of receipts and paper to pick through at tax time. I’m sure the accountant hated it, and he charged them a pretty penny for organizing that mess (although I’m pretty sure an office assistant was the one sorting the receipts and invoices, not the accountant himself). Once my husband switched them to Quicken or Quickbooks and could give the accountant an electronic copy of the books, the accountant started charging way less for taxes, because it was so much less work on his part when everything was already tallied and organized. Now my husband does the business taxes (and our own) using TurboTax for business, following along to make sure he submits all the same forms the accountant did, and he only hires the accountant every 5 years or so – and even then he does the taxes himself as well, just to make sure there isn’t a major difference between what the accountant was doing and what he was doing. It’s a couple of days of him locking himself in the office and swearing at TurboTax, but it really isn’t that bad if you have a general understanding of business principles and can read instructions, and kept good books all year long.

      My husband also doesn’t get involved with any crazy projecting or accounting schemes – basically, he and his father take very, very low salaries throughout the year (and sometimes forgo them if it’s a really bad month) and then at the end of the year if there is a lot of extra money they take a bonus, and if not, they don’t. That bonus usually gets split between our emergency funds, our splurge “someday we’ll take a vacation” fund and our retirement accounts – it’s not money we need in order to live on, we live mostly on my salary.

      So basically I would start with Accounting 101 or Bookkeeping 101 at the community college, and then either another semester of accounting or a class on a specific software like Quicken or QuickBooks (Quicken is better for just tracking money, QuickBooks can do invoicing as well but it has more of a learning curve). Do you have any business background at all? If not, maybe take a general business course first or a personal finance course, so you can learn more general information.

      If you need more info on “is this a valid business expense? what about this? what about that?” – that’s the kind of thing you probably need some advice from an actual accountant.

    4. Rat in the Sugar*

      For the first year you should work at least occasionally with a professional to make sure that your tax payments are in order and you don’t get hammered in April. The CPA I worked for last spring did this kind of work with local small businesses; owners could pay to come in and consult with her to make sure everything was in order and the taxes were paid but they kept the books themselves.
      I’m not sure about learning resources, unfortunately. I did everything the formal route.

    5. Kristen*

      I would suggest using Quickbooks, and you can probably find a one day or couple day course at your local community college that will go over the basics of what you are going to need to know for the day to day running of the business. It is a very user friendly program to use.

      I would recommend using a CPA firm for your taxes. The fee would be minimal compared to the time and effort you would probably have to put in doing them yourself.

    6. Noah*

      I totally agree with everyone else’s QuickBooks suggestion. I use the online version for my consulting business. The actual act of creating invoices and billing customers is pretty easy. I did have a few accounting courses as part of my B.B.A. However, most of what I learned about QuickBooks was through Intuit’s website and just searching online if I hit an issue.

      If you don’t know anything about accounting a CC class might be helpful. You might also look through those community classes catalogs that cities or counties sponsor and send in the mail. There is usually a bookkeeping class in those.

      I have an accountant help me with taxes every year. I don’t want to miss anything there. It is easy to package up the QuickBooks file and send it to him so he can do his magic with it.

    7. Nanc*

      Check with your nearest Small Business Development Center: https://www.sba.gov/tools/local-assistance/sbdc

      They’re a great resource on how to start your own business in your area and counselors can help you with everything from getting the local business license to registering your business name with your state to the basics of doing your own bookkeeping and taxes. If you’re planning to relocate soon it might be worth locating the SBDC in your future home.

    8. Nonya*

      I’m currently working at an accounting firm while pursuing my accounting degree. Basic bookkeeping (which sounds more like what you’re describing) doesn’t require much accounting knowledge. There are a few key principles that are important to know (such as cash vs. accrual basis, the basics of how your chart of accounts works, etc.) but the vast majority of the learning curve involves how to properly use the software.

      Many community colleges offer accounting/bookkeeping certificate programs. Since you said you like formal learning settings, this could be a good option for you. Normally these programs are geared toward more practical knowledge and less accounting theory. Those few courses should give you the solid foundation you need to move forward confidently.

      As far as taxes go, if you know this is something you want to do, many of the major tax preparer companies offer training programs. I’m not sure of the cost but that could be an option. Of course, like others said, taxes are a beast. There is more risk involved and they aren’t straightforward. At least for the first few years, it would be good to have a CPA make sure everything is in order.

      Best of luck!

  31. NicoleK*

    Need some advice. If one is feeling like the job just isn’t a good fit after an interview, is it better to withdraw the application or candidacy? Or take no action unless the position is offered? I have an interview on Monday. The vacant position provides coverage for three locations. There will be a supervisor for each location. One supervisor will be the official supervisor and the other two will be unofficial supervisors. The vacant position requires a specific degree and certification, but the supervisor(s) are not required to have either.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation and have it work out for the best?

    2. Development professional*

      If you’re certain you wouldn’t accept it if offered, you should withdraw. If you need more information to decide, then keep going with the process until you decide.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Three supervisors of varying degree and three locations. I really doubt this would work out for the best, but that is does not mean it’s not doable.
      Go to the interview, you may figure out in the middle of the interview that the answer is NO WAY. Or you may get through the interview and decide it’s not too bad at all.

      I would ask questions about the three locations and how you are expected to divide up your time. I would also ask if there is disagreement among your three supervisors how would that be handled? I would ask about the last person who had the job, what did she like/dislike? Ask how your work will be evaluated, how will they know you are doing a good job for the company?

  32. Blue Anne*

    A celebration and a question…

    I’m leaving the Big 4! I’ve just accepted a job offer at a much smaller firm where I’ll be able to continue working towards my qualification, while doing charities audit and some *gasp* actual accounting work. And they work 9-5. I went for my interview at 5:30 and the senior partner had to unlock the front door to let me into the office himself. Glorious. The day I handed in my notice I worked until midnight, so I have no doubts about my move…

    But! On the subject of handing in my notice! I let my manager know as soon as I had the offer in writing. We had a call on Tuesday afternoon, and I said that I would work right up until when I would have gone on Christmas break anyway, so more than my 4 weeks notice. It also happens to be salary talk time in the Big 4 at the moment, so this morning I had the call from another manager telling me what my salary increase would be if I stuck around (measly) and in that conversation she mentioned that my resignation wasn’t official yet. Umm….?

    So. The situation is that because it’s such a huge, bureaucratic entity, you need to fill out a form online and your resignation is not official until you do that. When I spoke with my manager, she said there was stuff she would need to look at with HR (I’ll need to pay back some training fees, etc.) and she would get back to me, mentioning nothing about this online form. I’ve now found it and filled it out, but I guess it means that my notice is recorded as 4 days later than I meant for it to be.

    I was going to work more than my official notice anyway, but I kind of want to have as much of that time as possible be noted as beyond my notice, partly because I’ve had such a huge uptick in overtime this week. I don’t THINK it’s related to handing in my notice, but if it continues I’d like to be able to point out that I’m in my last few weeks and they really can’t be assigning me brand new 70 hour projects or putting me onto jobs I’ll need to travel 5 hours every day for.

    Do you think it’s reasonable to stick to saying Tuesday is when I put in my notice?

    1. CM*

      Congratulations!! Going from Big 4 to a place where nobody is there at 5:30 sounds fantastic. Does it matter if your notice is recorded later? And can’t you just say no to projects that are requiring you to do things you’re not willing to do — what are they going to do, fire you? In any case, I think it’s reasonable to say that you informed them you were resigning Tuesday, so regardless of what the online system officially says, that’s when you put in your notice.

      1. Blue Anne*

        I guess my concern is that I want to be able to have a completely spotless reference from what will almost certainly be the most widely known organisation on my resume. If I need to say to my manager in the next week or so that the amount of work I’m suddenly being given is unsustainable and I will only work out my notice, she’ll understand. (She really is a very good manager and I’ve liked working with her.) But if the HR system then shows that I left a week before my notice was up? Really not ideal.

        1. CM*

          If she’s a good manager, hopefully she will understand that you’re not going to be on board with new projects that require a huge time commitment, since you’ll be gone in a matter of weeks. But if you get those assignments anyway, I guess your choice is to either explain that you don’t have time to do both this project and whatever else you need to do to transition out, or to suck it up until you leave.

    2. Dawn*

      According to what you just said, “you need to fill out a form online and your resignation is not official until you do that.” So the question then becomes how many bridges will you be burning if you don’t stick by that rule and instead decide that a verbal resignation was good enough?

      Honestly, you’re giving like a month’s worth of notice either way so I doubt 4 days would matter. However, your company sounds really bureaucratic so you want to make sure that if you do anything “not the official way” it really, truly won’t matter down the road.

    4. AnonForThis*

      I think there have been posts here about not working crazy overtime during your notice period, too? So maybe you could have that conversation instead? Being at a big company, if your client likes you, I assume they’ll want to keep you around to smooth out the transition while they fill your spot.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Can you back date the form online? Or can you show a three week notice which would be an adjustment for the four days lost when you did not know about the online form? What is the standard expected? Maybe you can ask your boss the best approach.

  33. Anon and on and on*

    I’m about to get an offer for a job that I’m really excited about and will probably accept. I have a phone date set up to talk with HR about the specifics, but they’ve already said they choose me, so now it’s about agreeing to a salary and all that.

    Slight problem: I’ve only been at my current job for 7 months and I feel a bit guilty leaving after such a short tenure. My company is at the beginning of two big projects that I’m tangentially involved in, and I know it will be tough to replace me during that process.

    How do I alleviate my own guilt, and what can I do to make my boss and coworkers feel better about the situation? The people I work with are really great, but the company culture isn’t really what I wanted.

    1. Dawn*

      Honestly and truly? Every single time you start to feel guilty say “F%$! it, I’m leaving and that’s final.” The fact that a great job came along with the timing that it did was 0% of your doing and you had 0% control of the timing of when this awesome job landed in your lap. The Universe wants you to have this awesome job so by god you’re gonna go take this awesome job!

    2. Nanc*

      Don’t forget the probation period (6 months, year, whatever it is) is for both parties. The company to see if you’re a good fit and you to see if the company/job meets your expectations and requirements. In this case, it’s not working for you. What you can do is give them as much notice as possible and do everything in your power to see that your little part in the upcoming projects is geared up and ready to go. Also, if your job had no or outdated SOPs, take the time to create/update them so the next hire has a smooth on boarding.

    3. NicoleK*

      Don’t feel guilty, most employers want employees who want to be there. If it’s not a good fit, it’s not a good fit.

  34. Squirrel*

    So I listened to everyone and kept applying and got a new job! Quick background: I disliked my current job because of management, but I’ve only been here four months (as of today actually), and wondered if I should bail because the place was just getting worse. I guess it upset my current manager because she’s made a big show of not talking to me during my last two weeks here. She even came into our little office area and pointedly ignored me while talking specifically to everyone else. Our supervisor suggested we have a potluck next week for Thanksgiving and the manager said, “Oh no, it’s too close to the holiday, people don’t want to make food for a potluck and then the holiday.” Of course the next day she sends out an email asking about interest in a potluck, and it just happens to be the day *after* I leave.

    I know that people were planning on doing something for me my last day (Tuesday), but who is going to do something for that, and the potluck, *and* Thanksgiving? I have to admit I was originally a little miffed about it, but I just ended up laughing over the petty spitefulness of the manager, and it definitely made me feel better about my impending departure. Good riddance to such awful management.

    1. fposte*

      Congrats on the new job! I wouldn’t take any of the potluck stuff to heart–honestly, we’re pretty friendly but we wouldn’t do anything beyond verbal acknowledgment for an employee who’d only been there four months.

      1. Squirrel*

        Oh, I get that. But some people had already said they were planning on doing something for me. Management here isn’t allowed to plan potlucks or parties, supposedly, I guess unless they want to make some sort of point.

    2. Observer*

      Well, if you had any doubts about your decision, your manager just gave you the answer.

      Being supervised and managed by a spiteful toddler can’t be easy.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Being supervised and managed by a spiteful toddler can’t be easy.

        It’s not. I’m right there now.

        Good luck with your new job, Squirrel!

  35. pieces of flair*

    At what point in the job application process do I need to be concerned that my references might be contacted?

    I’m in a bit of a sensitive situation. I’m paid on a grant that runs out in June and our renewal request was not funded. My boss told me she will do everything she can to keep me (including reducing her own salary!) until we (hopefully) get more funding, and will give me 3 months’ notice if I need to find a new job. However, I’m the main breadwinner for a family of 4 (my husband has 2 part-time jobs and no benefits), we are living paycheck to paycheck, and we will be completely screwed if I have any period of unemployment.

    So I’ve started looking and I feel guilty about it and don’t want my boss to know. But since I’ve been working here for 7 years, I can really only list people from this organization as references. My plan is to list my boss and 2 other people who are in a senior/semi-supervisory role to mine, then talk to them when/if a potential employer indicates they are getting ready to do a reference check. But can I actually assume that potential employers will tell me if they’re going to contact my references? If not, at what stage of the process do I need to assume they might do so and have the difficult conversation with my boss? After an interview? Is it even remotely possible that they might contact my references before an interview?

    I’m so stressed out about all this. I’ve never job hunted while employed before.

    1. Blue Anne*

      I’ve only ever had employers contact my references once I’ve actually had an offer from them. Usually they give me the offer with the comment that it’s subject to my references (and background/credit check if applicable) being okay.

    2. FurnitureLady*

      Agree with Blue Annie – I’ve never had an employer contact any references until pretty far along in the hiring process. I do think it’s okay to tell potential employers that you need to be discreet and ask them only to contact your references as one of the last steps – most people are looking while employed and a good hiring manager will be sensitive to that.

    3. fposte*

      We contact references at the finalist stage, but we don’t explicitly notify candidates when it will happen. While sometimes the contact can be earlier than that, I think you’re pretty likely to be safe if you wait until you get an interview.

      And it’s utterly reasonable for you to look for a new job under the circumstances. Your boss is kind of a jerk if she doesn’t find it reasonable too.

    4. Anxa*

      I’ve had two employers require reference surveys before they consider your application received, but that was for a hospital.

    5. Jillociraptor*

      Your boss seems to be a reasonable person who’s in your corner. I can’t imagine someone who is trying so hard to find a way to keep you, being unreasonable about the fact that you need to find a job. Even if you weren’t the main breadwinner, as a manager I’d totally get that you can’t put your financial health on the line for something I might not be able to deliver. Consider mentioning to her that you’re looking now; I’ll bet she would be a huge advocate for you.

  36. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    In case anyone wanted an update on how awful my boss is:

    Our admin lost her father on Friday. It was expected, so she tidied up a lot of stuff in the preceding week and took care of several things ahead of time. My boss is out this week, but our admin phoned Monday, the day of the funeral, to let us know what was going on and tell us she expected to be back Wednesday.

    I emailed my boss to give him the heads up, and he emailed me back to ask “Well did she say anything important that needed to get done today? Is she going to come in at all Tuesday?”

    No, she’s burying her father. She is not thinking about what needs to get done here. You don’t offer bereavement leave, so let her take two stupid days off to deal with things before harassing her to finish stuff for you.

    My boss also argued with my now-former coworker that he didn’t need to pay her for travel time because “this is benefiting you” (in that she was traveling to a trade show) and “when I traveled in sales they never paid me for my time!” And “this show is already costing me too much, I can’t afford to pay your time too!”

    On the plus side, my husband will probably be posted again in the spring, so I’ll be out of here relatively soon. Just keep my head down and be thankful that I’ll have a good long 2 1/2 year stint on my resume by the time I leave.

    2. LCL*

      I don’t think the example you give shows the boss as awful. I’m sure he is, but that example doesn’t prove it. After having stepped in it regarding family bereavement, and posting to ask a manager for help, I think I figured out why bereavement time is such a source of misunderstanding and hurt feelings.

      Employee says ‘Relative isn’t doing well, this may be it, I may have to take time to go to the funeral’. Boss hears ‘Employee is losing a relative and will be sad and will have to go to a funeral.’ Boss thinks that means employee will miss a day of work to go to a funeral. Employee actually means “I will need several days off to talk to other family members about this, that is how our family helps each other.” Boss doesn’t understand why employee just can’t take the day of the service and go back to work. Employee doesn’t understand why boss could possibly expect him to return to work the day after the funeral. Boss’s perception that employees tend to milk leave is confirmed. Employee’s perception that boss is heartless and unfeeling is confirmed. Neither perception is really true.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        I think that would be correct except for that when my boss’s wife lost her uncle, he was gone for a week. And when another coworker lost his mother suddenly he said nothing about his taking four days off. So he does understand the concept, he’s just choosing to ignore it.

      2. Shell*

        …what?

        I think needing a few additional days on top of the actual funeral to grieve and process a relative’s death is not such a novel concept that a boss can’t understand it. Sure, the boss may not expect it at first, because some people aren’t close to their relatives and thus doesn’t need the extra time. But if the employee explicitly takes more than one day off? Asking if the employee will come back to work is beyond the pale.

        Taking time off to grieve the death of a loved one is not difficult to understand.

        2. Kassy*

          I agree with this, and would like to add that it is the employee’s father. Yes, some people will take a week off for every great-step-twice-removed relative because that’s how their families function. And some people will do it even if they don’t really need the time. And some people aren’t close to their fathers, would rather get back to work to distract themselves…any number of things.

          But for most people, I don’t think substituting “father” with “relative” fully conveys the impact of the situation, even though it’s technically true.

      3. Anna*

        I’m not sure why any of this matters. Probably not the best idea to tell someone how they’re wrong about something they deal with daily.

    3. xarcady*

      At my very first job, in a small company with about 15 employees, the father of one of the sales people died. The guy took only the day of the funeral off. And the owner was yelling all afternoon that the funeral had been in the morning, so there was no reason said sales person shouldn’t be in the office that afternoon.

      That’s when I realized some bosses are not normal people.

  37. I Dream of Teapot*

    Has there ever been a thread about weird work-related dreams?

    The other night I had a dream in which my current boss married my previous boss.

    My previous boss recently got married in real life, but as far as I know my current boss is single. They work for different companies, by the way.

    What’s the weirdest work-related dream you’ve had?

    1. FurnitureLady*

      Absolutely tons of weird work dreams, mostly anxiety related. But the weirdest one was where I was slow dancing with my boss for some reason. I loved him as a boss, but slow dancing…no…

    2. Mimmy*

      Nothing really specific, but I’m always dreaming about randomly going back to a job I had years ago and volunteering to help every so often. This was a job that I was actually pretty miserable at. Go figure.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I have that same dream, usually about the cafe in California. The weirdest version was that I had moved back and was working there again and a flying saucer landed in the parking lot.

    3. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      I have nightmares that I’ve left something time sensitive too late and I have to rush to fix it. I think these are the same breed of dreams as “Time for a final you didn’t know you had and haven’t been studying for!”

    4. ACA*

      I had a dream last night where our finance director emailed me to tell me that all our graduating students had a missing academic requirement: None of them had worn the proper gloves to their exit meeting. (I woke up in a panic.)

    5. Anxa*

      So I was a server and server jobs are definitely A Thing. Basically they are stress dreams and a common theme is not being able to get to your table or the kitchen or otherwise having something you’re trying to do, but things keep popping up and getting in the way. Also you keep getting new tables.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I’ve told this one before, but I was having The Server Dream once, woke up, and saw that it was like 3:30 in the morning. And in my half-asleep state, my first thought wasn’t “Hey, cool, that wasn’t real,” but “WTF? It’s 3:30 in the morning! We’re closed. I’m going to tell all those customers to go home.”

        I’ve also had cashier dreams of POS systems with 3 or 4 different keyboards of unlabeled or mislabeled keys.

      2. Sunflower*

        OMG YES. I still have server nightmares and I haven’t served in 3 years. I’ve also had ones where I’m the only server in the restaurant and we’re full.

    6. Daisy Steiner*

      When I worked as a checkout operator I used to have anxiety dreams where the groceries were coming towards me on the conveyor belt and I just couldn’t keep up, so they would pile up higher and higher.

      1. Daisy Steiner*

        Oh, and I would also dream that a barcode wouldn’t scan, so I was having to type it in by hand. And I would get it wrong every. single. time.

      2. Windchime*

        I grew up in a place that grows lots and lots of apples and pears, and a typical job for young people is to work in a fruit-packing warehouse. So I did this in my youth (like 30 years ago). I still sometimes have dreams that I’m the only person working the line and the apples are just coming faster and faster and falling on the floor and there is nothing I can do about it.

    7. littlemoose*

      When I worked 35-40 hours per week in retail, I dreamed about the store almost every night, especially during the holiday season. They would usually be pretty boring dreams about work tasks. I specifically remember a dream about teaching an associate how to look up undeterminable style numbers. It made getting up and going to work a little more soul-crushing because I felt like I couldn’t get away from the store even at night. Holiday retail is rough.

    8. xarcady*

      I had to work on a project where information came in from many different locations, in the days before everyone had a computer. All the info was on paper, and the paper was in regulation white binders.

      It was a six-month project and I handled those binders daily.

      I used to have dreams of being buried under an unending avalanche of empty white binders.

      1. Dr. Johnny Fever*

        I shudder at the thought of how many paper cuts, binder-edge cuts, and ring pinches your fingers suffered in those six months.

    9. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      I have recurrent anxiety dream about having a job from 20 years ago, going to work to find the entire building has been reorganized and renovated, and I can’t find my desk to log into my terminal on time. I can’t find my boss or any coworkers. I wander through this unfamiliar building my nearly my entire shift trying to find my desk until I wake up.

      I also occasionally have dreams of performing the work from that job, seeing the terminal screens, having entire customer conversations, going to meetings, etc. I wake up exhausted and confused as hell from those dreams.

    10. Book Person*

      That the CEO decided the back cover copy for all of our books had to be written in rhyming verse. Everyone in the dream thought that this made perfect sense, though we don’t actually publish any poetry.

    11. MaryMary*

      This week I had a dream that a coworker made a “burn book” about me, but all the insults were so ridiculous that Dream Me didn’t even get mad. I am not fond of this coworker in real life and I’m currently working with her on a project, so I think my subconscious is definitely sending me a message.

      On the other hand, at OldJob I dreamed that a coworker went to my manager and my manager’s manager to complain about me. I hadn’t previously had strong feelings one way or another about her, but I was real life angry for weeks because Dream Her hadn’t come directly to Dream Me.

      In my least favorite work dream ever, I dreamed that I was commuting daily between OldJob’s US office and our India office. I would sleep on the plane and then wake up and go into whichever office was near where the plane landed. At the time I was working a ton of hours on a project with our offshore team, so again, my subconscious was not exactly subtle.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      Once, I dreamed that we had to spend the night at Exjob and I slept in my chair at my desk with a blanket over me. I woke up (in the dream) with the big boss standing there dressed in trousers, dress shirt and tie as usual, but his hair was all sticking up like he’d just got out of bed. He yelled at me, “Wake up! It’s time to get back to work!”

      I thought about telling him about it (he would have laughed) but I was afraid he would get ideas!

    13. Swoop*

      I think the weirdest was where I was trying to figure out the right contortions of my body to translate this one piece of text…

    14. Merry and Bright*

      At JobBeforeLast I dreamt that BigBoss asked the office to chip in to pay his tax bill and sold the photocopier to raise money.

    15. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Yes, just lately I had a dream that my entire department got fired (or quit?) and I had to do everything.

      I still have those dreams about realizing you haven’t been to a class all semester and it’s the day of the final. I mentioned that once to my husband’s 75-year-old grandmother. She said she still has them, too! I guess they never end.

    17. Sara*

      I frequently dream that I’m at school (I’m a teacher) and then my pants vanish just as my principal comes in for a surprise observation. The principal is always like, “This is really inappropriate. You need to wear pants at school.” (I’ve had this dream at two different schools with two different principals, and I also used to have the same dream during student teaching, except then it was my university supervisor chastising me.)

      I also used to dream that my colleagues and students were coming into my bedroom in the middle of the night to ask me to do various work tasks. This was when I lived in a much, much hotter climate and slept naked pretty regularly, and Dream Me would always panic about how I was going to get out of bed to go proofread all the English exams without everyone noticing that I was naked.

    18. Cassy*

      Every time I get stressed about work for an extended period of time, I always start having the same exact recurring dream, in which I have sent a completely inappropriate and/or profanity-laced email to a whole bunch of colleagues at the end of work one day and have ZERO recollection of doing so. The next morning I come into work and find a whole bunch of sad/confused emails about why would I send such a thing, and I am just PANICKING and going “oh my god I am so sorry I don’t even know what this is”

    19. Anon for this*

      This was during the period where I was completely infatuated with a married coworker. He was standing on a balcony like structure. I was standing on a ladder. Coworker was speaking about a project or something. After he was done talking, I reached out my hand to him as he reached down with his hand. Our hands touched, clasped and then I awoke.

    20. Daisy Steiner*

      At my old job, though it wasn’t part of my responsibility, it was theoretically possible for me to submit writing to a system that would then be broadcast on a national TV channel as the scrolling ribbon at the bottom of the screen (think similar to a TV news programme). I used to dream I was writing an email, then halfway through would realise it was actually going out live on TV to the nation.

  38. petpet*

    I have a new coworker who won’t stop talking to herself and it’s driving me maaaaaaad. She baby talks to the shredder (“Oh, are you full? Is that why you’re so mad?”) and mock-yells at her computer (“No! Print this, not that!”). She does so at a volume that sounds like she’s half talking to herself and half hoping someone will engage in some banter/chit-chat. We are not a chatty office so no one is taking her up on it, but she keeps doing it. So far I’ve ignored her 100% of the time but it’s incredibly distracting and I really wish she would stop.

    My only thought is that next time she has an outburst I could ask her if she needs help with something, but I don’t trust that I can keep a pleasant/neutral tone if I do, so I keep chickening out.

    1. Sadsack*

      Asking if she needs help may be a bad move that will let her know that what she is doing works — unless she responds that she does need help and you respond by telling her to just ask and not use baby talk.

      1. petpet*

        Looks like you all agree I should just ask her to quiet down! Now I just need to figure out how to do that without looking like a jerk in front of the rest of the office.

        1. fposte*

          When in doubt, blame inanimate objects. “Jane, there’s just something about the acoustics in here that makes sound travel–can you move the conversation/keep the volume down? Thanks.” (I know it’s not a conversation, but that’s the the easiest way to refer to it.)

    2. fposte*

      You could also just ask her to be quieter because it’s distracting. I’d favor that over asking if she needs help with anything, because you don’t think she does need help with something, you just would like her to be quieter.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        “Belinda, if everyone here talked out loud to themselves all day long, no one would get any work done. Please work quietly, people are doing that for you, please do it for them.”

    4. K.*

      She baby-talks to the shredder? Oh God. I haaaaaaaaate baby talk – I don’t even use it when talking to actual babies, it hurts my ears – so this would drive me straight-up crazy. I would either need noise-cancelling headphones or to tell her, politely, to knock it off.

    5. afiendishthingy*

      uh oh. I don’t baby talk to anyone/anything but the second one could be me… That’s not what I wanted NO NO CANCEL… there we go thank you… why aren’t you printing you stupid jerk

    6. NicoleK*

      I can relate. Coworker is a very excitable person and has a high pitched voice. Her voice gets higher and higher when she’s chatting with her friends right outside my office. She also asks and answers her own questions.

    7. Jennifer*

      I have that going on at work too. All you can do is ignore, but she NEEDS NOISE and if you won’t provide it, she will.

    8. A.J.*

      ugh, I definitely sympathize with this. My manager at ex-job had a desk right across from me (facing towards me but not visible behind monitors). Whenever he would get angry with something his computer, he’d start muttering in German, bang his fist really hard on the table, and slam the keyboard. The entire desk would shake and bump into my desk, and scare the heck out of me.

  39. Nonprofit-No Budget*

    Hello! Are there any event planning/marketing people out there willing to lend some advice?

    I recently starting volunteering with a very small nonprofit organization: think, less than 10 fulltime staff, if that. All the rest volunteers with fulltime day jobs. I don’t know all the details, but I get the sense that we are VERY small, have just enough to do what we do (small publishing and events) and thus have no budget for anything else.

    My question is about events and how to increase reliable attendance. Currently we put out small poetry readings once every few weeks or so: 3-4 artists + a musician to open and close. Our venues aren’t huge by any means (would max out at 40-50 occupants), so we’re not expecting a big production. The problem is: the ONLY way we’ve been promoting events is through facebook and email. This means we have no idea how many people are going to show. Out of 700 invited on FB, 40 might say they’re going, but only 5 might show up. This is incredibly embarrassing especially when we’ve had to make pitches to bands on why they should play at our event, etc. All is free (though we do ask for donations).

    Is there any way to make this better with zero budget? Would a call to action (e.g. Having people RSVP with name+email, even if it’s free) increase reliable attendance? Are there other methods?

    The promotional stuff we DO put out is very professional. The FB posts, website, etc. — I don’t see a problem there. But is there more we’re missing? The current volunteer running the events said the onus is really on the artists to be promoting these to their fans, but in reality what ends up happening is that the only attendees will just be close personal friends of the artists who would be there anyway and aren’t necessarily interested in much else (do they “count”?).

    Also, we have a volunteer who runs the events, another in charge of music booking, and another in charge of artist/poet booking — and, I could be imagining it, but I might be sensing some volunteer fatigue. I worry about burn out if the events don’t get to a stable point within the next 6 months or so.

    Anyway, my goal here is stable, not necessarily big or fantastic. Just..if we could reliably know that AT LEAST 15-20 guests would show, that would be great — instead of having it be start time and NO ONE is there, and so we wait for an extra half hour hoping people will show, and sometimes they do (close friends of the artists), but sometimes only 5 people come throughout the whole duration and — it’s just embarrassing to say the least.

    Any advice? Thanks very much in advance!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I am an event planner. My last job was planning events at a college, where students were notorious for signing up for things and then not showing up. Attrition was a really big issue. The only thing that helped, and I don’t know if this is feasible for you, was asking people to actually register for the event and then sending several reminders about it (sometimes the most helpful reminder was 2 hours beforehand being like “hey, you’ve got somewhere to be tonight!). Do you charge for these events? If these are free events, that’s sort of the trade-off. People will say they’re going to go and then not come because they don’t lose anything by cancelling.

      What email lists are you using to promote the event? Can you team up with other organizations or networking groups or whatnot in your area to cross-promote?

      1. Nonprofit-No Budget*

        These are free events, yes. :( And I can see how it creates the kind of trade-off you’re talking about. I know nothing about event planning — is there a simple/free way to make it easy for people to register? Is there some sort of software?

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Check out Eventbrite. I believe you can use them as a registration website for free if your events are free.

    2. inkstainedpages*

      Do other organizations in your community have calendars you could post your events on? I work at a small non-profit (3 full time staff), and we post events on calendars at the Convention & Visitors Bureau, Arts Council, local newspaper, public radio, etc. We find this really helpful because each calendar reaches a different audience, and sometimes the organization will pick up one of our events to do additional marketing on (for example, the CVB has a monthly radio show, and sometimes they ask us to come on and talk about a particular event coming up).

      We also print flyers (cheap, usually 8.5×11 and b/w) and post them around downtown and at the public library. We very rarely take out an ad in the newspaper, but the rest of our marketing for events is just Facebook, our website, monthly email newsletters, and a quarterly print newsletter to our members. Occasionally, depending on the event, we send a reminder postcard to our members. Our total marketing budget each year is $1500, but if we didn’t spend any on ads in the newspaper, it would be a lot lower.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      If this were me the first thing I’d ask is whether there’s actually demand for the events. Is there a large enough community of people who actually want to come? If I felt reasonably certain that there is demand for the events, I’d chat with some of the folks who are interested but don’t often make it. Are the events too often, in an inconvenient location, etc.? There might be simple adjustments you could make to increase attendance.

      Beyond the structural, you might consider a more social way of inviting people. Folks don’t want to just show up at a random event where they’re not likely to know anyone, so ideally you can influence groups of people who know each other to come, or help to create relationships once they show up. Are there any people who fairly regularly come to the events? Maybe you could meet with them to see if they would be willing to organize a group of 3 friends to also come to the next one. Are there other community groups with a similar interest who might want to co-host? School groups or groups from places of worship you could invite to specific readings?

      People need personal outreach (which also creates social pressure to show up!). You’ll also want to have at least one volunteer at the event who is mingling with people, introducing them to each other, making sure no one’s standing alone awkwardly by the wall, because those folks are probably not coming back without it.

    4. Development professional*

      Yes, RSVP and reminders will make a huge difference for you! You can take RSVPs through facebook, or use another online tool like Eventbrite (I’m not sure if this is free as long as your event is free?) or use an invitation software like Paperless Post or evite. Anything that will let you track replies in an automated way – you do NOT want people to hit reply to an email and then have the person getting the email to have to keep track of that somewhere. Then send a reminder the day before or day of to those who replied yes. The great thing about invitation software is that you can schedule this in advance, so you don’t even have to remember to send the reminder the day of.

      Take “yes” responses up to double the number of people who fit in your venue, since you know you have attrition.

      Also, are you doing too many events? Would your volunteers be less stressed and your audience be more eager to attend if you did these once a month instead of every few weeks?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I live in an area where the population is spread out. If we get 15 people at an event that is like a stampede. We tried a lot of things with moderate success.
      One is to watch the community calendars in your area to see if your event conflicts with Major Events.
      Another way to get people involved is to team up with another NPO and do things together. So for example maybe the Boy Scouts could do a bottle drive outside the building before the poetry reading. Or maybe a family lost their house in a fire and your organization could offer to help take up a small collection for the family at the same time. During holiday times you can consider running a food or toy drive with your event.
      From a different angle, what about packaging the poetry differently? Maybe get a speaker on the therapeutic value of poetry. (I know a few people now who have used poetry to work through their grief.) Then have your poets read. Maybe you have writers in your community that would be happy to give a short talk on how to begin writing poetry and you could combine the teaching with the poets.

      I will be blunt. Poetry reading would not do well in my community. Musicians might do better but if it’s planting season, harvesting season or if there a fire call then forget it. No one is going to show up. (A fire call here shuts down almost everything.) You might get some more insight on this topic by going to your chamber of commerce and asking questions. I went to a chamber in a neighboring town and the head of the chamber offered a ton of insight as to what is happening and why. (Her punchline: What you see is what there is to see. It probably will not change.)

      Good luck. It’s a hard nut to crack. I volunteered for years trying to build things up and finally I just could not put more energy into it. My conclusion came on taking a hard look at our community and the demands on their time and the economy of my area. I worked with a terrific group of people, probably the best group I will ever see. It was sad and it was hard to accept the answers we found.

    6. Little Teapot*

      Another suggestion is charging for the event, but off-setting it by say ‘$10 entry with two included beers’. People are less likely to bail if they actually paid for the event. If it’s free, any reason is a good reason to bail (it’s raining, it’s too hot, better offer, Friends marathon is on etc). The events would still be free (as you’re providing drinks for their $$) and it might give you a better indication of numbers. And of course if only 1-5 people register and pay, perhaps there’s a bigger issue as others have suggested.

  40. FurnitureLady*

    I have an “ethical” question. I’ve accepted a new job (yay) and will be starting there Jan 1st. I haven’t told OldJob anything yet because our year end is 11/30 and bonuses are paid out afterwards. If the bonuses hit on the first pay period after the 30th, I’d be giving notice on 12/4 which I feel good about. If not, it won’t be until 12/18 which is barely two weeks and most of that is the holidays.

    Basically, I’m holding off on telling them because I’m afraid they won’t pay my bonus, but I feel icky giving barely two weeks. Has anyone had this situation before? How did you handle it? (If it matters, the bonuses are a significant sum of money, not a few hundred dollars)

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I actually ended up turning a job down, among other reasons, because of this. I was nervous about giving notice too soon and not having my bonus paid out. Do you have anything in company policy about bonuses? If you’re employed on 11/30 AND employed when the bonuses are paid out, I would certainly hope they’d still give them to you!

    2. Sadsack*

      If you give notice on Dec 18, that’s exactly 2 weeks notice, isn’t it? I would do it, but I wonder what others think!

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        You shouldn’t count non-work days, so assuming FurnitureLady’s company is closed for Christmas, 12/18 to 1/1 would be 9 work days.

        That’s tough, OP, but I’d say that if you don’t see the bonus on 12/4 and you don’t trust management to do the right thing (I’m assuming the bonus is for your performance over the year, not a retention bonus in a field with really high turnover), then hand in your notice on 12/17, and hope that it’s too late for them to change the bonuses even if they’re so inclined…but be ready for them to try.

    3. AnonForThis*

      Same boat, but new start date isn’t determined. I think our bonuses won’t be paid out until our Dec. 15 check.

      ………………………………………womp.

    4. Dan*

      What makes you feel more icky, not getting your bonus, or giving the standard two-week notice?

      Unless your bonus is a defined part of your compensation structure, some people would argue that the bonus is really a retention strategy and that you would be unethical by taking it and quitting immediately. Me, I don’t worry too much about that stuff.

      Stick around for the bonus, and give a standard two-week notice.

      1. AnonForThis*

        My bonus comes at the end of the year, so I’d consider it to be more performance incentive than retention. “Do a killer job all year so you get your bonus at the end.”

        1. Cat Mechanic*

          That is how I viewed it until I worked at a job that withheld my year-end bonus (not a guaranteed part of my compensation but everyone got something at year-end) when I resigned and my last official day was Dec. 31. I called a few weeks later to ask about my bonus; their explanation was the bonus was an incentive for the next year. Not according to past practice, but I was so clueless back then that I couldn’t read between the lines. But really, all I had to do was stay one or two more weeks and *then* leave?

          1. Bea W*

            I had a similar experience where I was given a merit increase based on my performance over the last year. I submitted my resignation after the raise took effect but before the first paycheck was issued. In fact I worked an entire month after the raise was went into effect and never saw it.

            I got some BS story from HR that raises weren’t given to people who were leaving. That’s reasonable IF I had in fact not been given a raise at all or even if there was a policy to revoke a raise, but my new pay went into effect as if June 1 and I didn’t give notice until June 10. No one told me the raise had been revoked. I just noticed it in my paychecks and asked.

            When I asked the HR rep if the alleged policy on revoking raises was written anywhere she said no it wasn’t. So the only documentation dictating my rate of pay for the month of June was the letter stating my perforamce rating for that year and awarding me a merit increase based my past performance.

            My then current boss and my former boss who was still at the company asked about this as well. They were told not to pursue it. It was beyond sketchy. (And no way to treat an employee who had stayed on 9 years contributing to a highly successful project!)

        2. Bea W*

          Our bonuses are tied to performance for that year. So they are coming after you’ve done all the work and the purpose is to reward you for the work you’ve already done. In cases where people started the job mid-year the bonus is pro-rated, because you don’t get to collect bonus money for work you didn’t do. It would be totally legit to leave after receiving your bonus. I believe my company will even still pay it out if you leave before the bonus gets distributed, because you still did the work to earn it.

      2. Sunflower*

        Yup I agree. I see a bonus as a gift for working so hard for the year- you worked there all year, you deserve it IMO

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I think a lot of this depends on how ethical you think your company is. I worked for a company that paid me a bonus after I left that I wasn’t even expecting! I thought it was a mistake and checked in with the accountant, and it was standard practice (in this case, I left the company in June, and they paid me a partial year-end bonus the following January).

      If you have seen things in your company that lead you to believe they will not be ethical (taking a long time to fulfill reimbursement requests… or flat-out denying those requests, being cheap about covering travel expenses, not paying people on time, etc.), then you have no moral obligation to give them a full two weeks’ notice. However, if everything you’ve seen there leads you to believe they operate by the book, then you should also operate by the book and give two weeks’ notice.

      1. Bea W*

        My current employer does this. The bonus is for work already done. If you leave before the end of the year or start later in the year you get the bonus pro-rated for the part of the year you worked.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Well, in their mind it was very practically for work already done, because the bonuses were determined as a raw percentage of the company’s profits for that fiscal year… so it’s the actual money earned that year.

    6. FurnitureLady*

      Yeah – 12/18 is exactly two weeks notice. I just feel badly (assuming it all works out this way) much of that time will be unproductive/holiday time so it isn’t “really” two weeks. I don’t feel bad about waiting for the bonus because I’ve killed myself this year to earn it and I don’t want to walk away from money.

      This is a smaller company and the handbook doesn’t address this issue at all, so I think it’s at their discretion which is why I’m being extra cautious.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I wouldn’t worry about unproductive slow work days, but if the company is closed for a holidy I would *not* consider that part of your notice period. Generally the point of two weeks notice is to give your employer ten work days to work out how to handle things when you’re gone, which is why you shouldn’t take time off during your notice period unless your manager is totally OK with it.

    7. Noah*

      I would struggle with this too. I would want to give notice as early as possible because of the holiday, but I would not if I was worried they wouldn’t pay my bonus. In that case I don’t see anything unethical about waiting until 12/18. It is the standard two weeks, even if part of that falls on a holiday. Also, I generally view bonuses as a bonus for a job well done.

    8. it happens*

      Congratulations on the new job. You have a few issues here. You have earned the money and should be paid for it. Most companies I know of will not pay a bonus to someone who is no longer employed with the organization (and notice may or may not be included in this – I see exceptions above – hooray for those employers.) So to make sure you get the money you shouldn’t give notice until after you’ve received it. It sounds like you haven’t been there a year yet because you don’t know when they pay it – for an 11/30 fiscal year they may have until February to pay it for it to count as an expense in this year. Depending on the size of the company, there is lots of accounting work to do and then a whole process of figuring out the size of the bonus pool and then its distribution. Unlikely to happen in five days for a 12/4 payout, sorry. It would not be unreasonable to ask your boss when the bonus is paid – just as part of your end of year financial planning (you may choose to buy nicer gifts for family if your bonus is higher than you expect, for example, or put more money into your retirement account by 12/31, or any of myriad options dependent on your total annual income – it’s not a suspicious question to ask one’s boss.) With that information you can make some other decisions – ask your new employer to postpone your start date or if the bonus will be paid much further into 2016, then ask them to pay you the bonus as a signing bonus so you can start on Jan 1. Don’t know your industry, but this is not uncommon in finance. Granted, if I were the employer I would be a little miffed at these requests, depending on their scale. You really ought to understand how your compensation works. And that is not a slam on you – everyone should understand how his/her compensation works and companies should not make it so mysterious and take inquiry into its workings so adversarially. No matter what, there is nothing stopping you from starting whatever documentation/clean up you would be doing during your notice period. Call it end-of-year housekeeping if necessary.

  41. Anxa*

    So I’m at my local career one-stop center because I need to get serious about what I’m doing for work next semester. I’m fairly confident that I’ll have at least 80% of the hours I have this semester, plus a small raise (a few percent). I love my job, am happy with my actual wage, but between being part-time and having tons of unpaid time off, what would be a 24K salary full-time ends up being a few thousand dollars a year.

    Unfortunately, I’m not underemployed in the right way. I almost wish I didn’t leave my home-state when I was unemployed, as since I’ve left they’ve developed programs for the long-term unemployed.

    Has anyone had success getting into a job training program when they aren’t neatly unemployed? I have a B.S. and I was laid off more than 5 years ago and my company didn’t close and I never filed a claim in my current state. But I feel like I really need help.

  42. thunderbird*

    I am an executive at a volunteer run non-profit, we have a major event coming up and the team organizing it, while doing their best, are not meeting targets. They have been offered a great deal of support from others with experience and they don’t seem to take it. It seems like they have a vision and want to do it their way, unfortunately their way is not going to be successful and is creating significant risks for the organization. Many people are frustrated with this group. I have a very direct communication style and this has been interpreted as negativity and criticism. I am pretty diplomatic, but as things have been getting worse, I am being more direct about expectations and reiterating facts that seem to be misinterpreted. When volunteers do great work, we acknowledge it, and while I appreciate that everyone is doing this as unpaid work, we do need to achieve certain quality standards and follow protocols.

    How do I get these individuals who are underqualified and not producing results at our standard to accept our help and understand that we do have to meet a certain level of expectations without alienating people?

    Also, I have started to question my direct approach. It seems that higher level individuals prefer this style, but it intimidates others. It also occurred to me that people have asked me to soften my tone, but I have to wonder how much that has to do with being a young female. The men in the organization have never been spoken to the way I have and I can’t help but wonder if that is a factor here.

    1. BuildMeUp*

      If you’re at the point where it’s creating significant risk, is it possible to pull people from the groups that have the experience you need and temporarily add them to the team? It sounds like you’re asking and telling the volunteer group they need to accept help, but they’re still not doing it, so the only option seems to make it impossible for them *not* to accept it.

      As far as your directness goes, it sounds like that could be a symptom of their refusal to listen to outside advice. You’re giving them feedback they don’t want to hear, so they accuse you of being negative and conine igoring it. It could definitely be gendered as well! Women get accused of being intimidating or too direct all the time when a man speaking the same way wouldn’t be.

      1. thunderbird*

        We told them we would help by finding external people with the qualifications to support and guide them. It was made clear that this was not a take over but providing much needed assistance. But it feels like their ego’s are preventing them from accepting this, despite it being a directive from the board. You can’t force people to play nicely it seems. Any more force and I fear they will throw a destructive fit so it’s a difficult balance for me.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Who is in charge of deciding which ideas will actually be used?

      Is the organization a stand-alone or is it a chapter in a national organization?

      Are you the only paid person there?

      1. thunderbird*

        The organizing committee who ultimately answers to the board of directors. They don’t seem to be respecting this chain of command. We are a small national organization, no chapters per se.

        I am a board member. No one is paid. Despite having no employees we still need to adhere to professional standards, which doesn’t seem to sink in with certain people.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I hope you see this.

          Ugh, this is tough when no one is paid. I’m a board member and I have plenty of experience being a front line person also.

          What I find is that boards generally do not do a good job of talking with their people. There’s lots of reasons why this happens. I’ll cut to the punchline. My suggestion is to pull everyone together for a meeting. Review the guidelines and explain the importance of the guidelines. From my view here, I am not sure even who creates these guidelines/standards so teach them all these basic things so they can follow along better.

          My next suggestion may or may not seem that great. Take one of them and appoint them as liaison to the board. This is a person that will be considered a board member- your board can decide if they have voting power or no- and their job will be to report to the crew what is going on, what is in the pipeline. The other half of their responsibility will be to report to the board what the crew needs, how things are going and so on. The liaison person should be someone that most of the people involve agree, that they respect this individual.

          My last suggestion will make no one happy. I suggest annual meetings to recap the expectations of the organization. Go over responsibilities and answer questions. Tricky part, answer all questions with respect. Some questions may seem too basic to be real. Some questions might seem unnecessarily complex. Play a straight game and answer their questions. Kicker: This annual meeting is mandatory. Anyone who wants to remain with the organization must attend. Serve refreshments, even if you have to make it yourself.

          Yeah, probably not the answer you really wanted to hear. But this is what I am seeing around me, I hope it at least gives you a base to come up with ideas you will implement.

          1. thunderbird*

            Thanks, I really appreciate this perspective. Partially to ensure I am not the one expecting too much. We are having a meeting with the team leads, including the person who has essentially been the liaison to the board already. Other groups in the past have been really successful with this type of event, it just seems that this group has too much personal stake and grossly underqualified, and some sort of unwillingness to adhere to our organizations standards.

            I do think we did not do a good job with very clearly setting the expectations in the beginning and now we are in over our heads. Also there has been some shifts in leadership in their group which I am sure has done wonders for transmission of accurate information.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              You may need to flat out replace people. That is a luxury we do not have here. And if you start telling people things they don’t like they just quit and no one replaces them.

              I guess your first step is for your board to go over some options and develop an action plan that the whole board will commit to.

  43. Hello Friend*

    I’m trying to decide if I should flag something in advance, in case things get squirrely. They aren’t now, but you never know.

    So my manager manages only two of us, me and my coworker (we share the front office duties and a bunch of other things). My manager is way more friendly with my coworker – facebook friends, hang out on the weekend sometimes, chattier at work, etc. I don’t expect her to be my bestest friend, obviously my coworker and manager have much more in common with each other than I do. I do honestly believe that a manager can be friends with their direct reports and still be professional at work.

    But I worry about this turning into favouritism. There isn’t really much going on yet, though sometimes I think my coworker gets away with things I wouldn’t (but super small difference). I’m wondering if I should mention it to my managers manager (we chat with some regularity at other meetings) just as a heads up… and be really clear that I’m not concerned now I just want to make sure coworker and I are given the same privileges at work, treated the same work-wise, etc.

    do I bother mentioning it when everything is fine? Or just leave it be and only bring it up if things go sideways?

    1. overeducated and underemployed*

      I’m not sure what positive impact mentioning it now would have – do you want your boss’s boss to talk to your boss about it? If not because everything is fine, what would the purpose be, just a heads-up that you might bring a problem to them later? I would say if it’s the latter, just wait until there is a problem.

      1. Kassy*

        Agreed. If nothing has actually happened yet, I’m afraid it would look like you are trying to start problems rather than pre-emptively head them off, like you’re intending.

  44. Ops Analyst*

    Ok, so I need a bit of advice. I’m 8 months into a new job and over the past few months I have really gained a lot of traction and visibility on my team. My work has become known for its high quality. I’m often told its good enough to go directly to the executive level without much (or any) changes or improvements. As a result, I have been getting a lot of requests from my extended team to do projects for them. Which I am truly happy about.

    The problem is that I am having trouble managing expectations. The work that I do is typically time consuming (quick reference guides, internal communications with visuals, visuals for executing presentations, technical writing, LMS courses, etc.) and part of that time is ensuring it is the high quality they have come to expect from me. But there is a culture at my company of having to have everything done right away. They are usually putting out fires rather than preventing them. So when a project from my team comes my way, it typically needs an immediate response. They are actually trying to move away from this, so I have a couple of long term projects going on in the background that are aimed at preventing problems we know will occur if we don’t address them.

    Most requests come from either my direct manager (Boss A) or my managers direct manager (Boss B). Both Boss A and Boss B are people I report to. Requests from Boss A are typically the long term, no rush projects (the ones I was essentially hired to do). Requests from Boss B (or his other direct reports) are typically given to me under fire and have a very short turnaround time. Much of the time my work from Boss A gets put on the back burner while I do the work for Boss B.

    So three things are happening that I am having trouble dealing with.

    1) I am given projects with unrealistic deadlines, all of which are priorities and often piled on top of each other. If I ask which to prioritize, I rarely get a helpful answer.
    2) I have two bosses giving me work and I don’t know which one I should be putting first. It seems like I should be putting Boss A first, since she is my direct manager. But both Boss A and I report to Boss B. Since he is higher up than her, it seems I should prioritize his requests.
    3) Because I can’t seem to strike the right balance, I will suddenly be sprung with unexpected deadlines from Boss A (who is not a great communicator). For example, a project I have been working on from the beginning suddenly went from a “soonish” deadline to a hard deadline of the end of the year. Admittedly it has been put on the backburner for too long but this is a project that has about 20 different components that take time to complete (For example, 6 LMS courses, only 3 of which are complete). I honestly don’t think it’s crazy that it would take me more than 8 months to finish something that includes 6 LMS courses, considering I am a new hire and these are being done in between many other projects. When I explained that it would take time to finish the LMS courses the responses is “but we’ve been working on this since day one and it needs to get done”. I agree, but I actually have not been working on LMS courses since day 1. They came into the picture about 3 months ago because I pushed for them. I reminded her of this but I’m worried that in her head she just sees a project I haven’t completed.

    Boss A in particular has very little understanding of how long these types of projects take and while she doesn’t usually give hard deadlines, she doesn’t understand why things aren’t getting done faster and will suddenly drop them on me. Boss B seems to understand more how long it takes to get these things done, but still has unrealistic deadlines for much of the work he’s given me. I don’t want to jeopardize my standing by not meeting Boss B’s deadlines or look like I can’t reach goals and don’t finish Boss A’s tasks.

    So, any advice on how I should balance this? How do I get them to understand that these things are time consuming and that if they want quality from me they need to give me that time? How do I prioritize when everything is a priority? And how do I prioritize the needs of 2 managers? Most importantly, how do I maintain solid organization of these things so that I am keeping Boss A in the loop so she doesn’t forget when things were actually assigned (like 3 months ago, rather than 8 months ago)?

    2. Dawn*

      Are you having regular check-in meetings with Boss A where you go over your workload and ask for help prioritizing? Quick 20 min meetings either every week or every other week would help with this A LOT.

      Also, work on managing upwards- which means, when someone asks you to do something, respond to their request with “Thanks Tyrion. I will be able to organize the Red Wedding on Thursday after I finish with the White Walker count for John Snow. Note that me doing the Red Wedding organization will push back my delivery date for your census of King’s Landing to next Friday instead of next Wednesday- if this will be a problem let me know and I’ll stop by so we can work out prioritization.” Basicaly, push push push your boss to prioritize things!

      1. Ops Analyst*

        We have check ins every couple of months. She’s not big on that kind of stuff. I’m thinking maybe summarizing my work in an email might help.

        Managing up is probably the most effective thing. I appreciate the language because I couldn’t figure out how to say it and I’m really not so good at that.

    3. Cat Mechanic*

      I get stuck on this part of your comment: “I reminded her of this but I’m worried that in her head she just sees a project I haven’t completed.” Try to stop worrying about this. You don’t know what she thinks!

      “How do I get them to understand that these things are time consuming and that if they want quality from me they need to give me that time? How do I prioritize when everything is a priority?” Tell them.

      I don’t know how far along you are in your career, but it doesn’t matter. This happens to me at every new job when I want to make a good impression. You can control only what you can control. You are human. My work is often known for its high quality, too, and it never fails that I find jobs where everything “needs” an immediate response. I am over this. Still professional about it, but over it. Your needs are 100% as valid as theirs. They want you to succeed. They might not know what your needs are, though!

      When I get super frustrated with a situation, I write it all out, much like you’ve done here, to clear my head. This leads me to a serious conversation with my boss, where I already have an outline. Would you feel comfortable having a serious discussion with Boss A or B about this? And if you rarely get a helpful answer, push back. Your needs are valid!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like A and B have no idea how much work the other has given you.
      It also sounds like neither one of them have good time frame references.

      I would start asking the both of them to sort out what is important and what is not. It would probably be best if B passed her requests to A as opposed to asking you directly. B does not seem to be letting A manage you. She seems to be side-stepping A. If B had to go through A with work assignments then A would have a better idea of how much you are handling.

      If you can muster up an explanation, tell them that they are routinely underestimating how long things take. If you can make a little chart of regular requests and how long it takes, this might help to give them basis to begin to consider time frames.

      Lastly, discuss expectations. It could be that you are trying to pump out Perfect Work and at certain times all they want is something that will do the job. Ask them to be more clear about when they want something that is functional vs something that is Perfect.

    5. it happens*

      You have a good problem, everyone thinks your work is great. Doesn’t make it easier on you.
      If Boss A isn’t into frequent check-ins then you could start sending her weekly report emails – super short – this is what I worked on this week for Boss B – this is what I expect to do next week. Maybe include a quick table of projects and expected/done completion dates – that also would make it easy to have an end-of-year results discussion. It would also start to give Boss A an idea of how much time each kind of project takes for future reference.
      I echo the comments above – Boss B should be filtering (or at least cc:ing) projects through Boss A if she is accountable for your output.
      Bottom line – you need to have a conversation with Boss A – the two of you need to be on the same page about expectations and you are not right now.

  45. Mimmy*

    katamia’s post above just inspired a question: A couple years ago, a fellow committee member told me I’d make a “wonderful” editor because I’m always catching mistakes and discrepancies that others often miss (this was for reading grant proposals). Is that what an editor does – checks for typos and inaccuracies? I can see myself doing that for a textbook publisher in my field, though I imagine the work is incredibly tedious.

    1. ElCee*

      It’s part of it. The job title varies widely but really what you describe is proofreading. A developmental editor provides feedback on actual content, a managing editor oversees freelancers/staff and the larger editing process, a production editor edits for general style, consistency, works with art, etc. At a newspaper these job titles mean something different than at a publishing house, and at a small nonprofit or firm may mean something else entirely.
      Proofreading is tedious and demands a sharp knowledge of house style and grammar, and your attention really cannot flag because you are the last line of QC.

      1. Cat Mechanic*

        Yes, my job titles have almost always been “editor” but meant “proofreader.” I’m in my 10th year of being a “proofreader” and am over it. No one actually wants an editor outside of publishing apparently. I would love to use my job title to make editorial decisions and for someone else to proofread my work!

        In the beginning, I loved proofreading. I understand why it’s a popular second career. When I was in college, a teacher asked me what my favorite part of writing a paper was. I answered it’s when I was finished so I could proofread it. I loved proofreading my friends’ papers!

    2. Short and Stout*

      Don’t do it. Major publishers of all types now typically outsource the kind of work you describe — proof reading and copy editing — to India and the Phillipnes. Salaries and jobs in this field are not good long term bets.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Also, not every editing/proofreading job is at a publisher. Anywhere that creates in-house marketing/client material will also have similar positions, as well as places that maintain significant online content.

        2. Short and Stout*

          I also work in publishing and know this to be true of all academic publishers, and have heard it to be true of major publishers of textbooks and children’s books.

          My employer currently has a hybrid model of some work done in house, some done by suppliers. We are very close to 100% outsourced proof reading. I don’t see this changing or reversing.

    3. Ryan the TempAnon*

      I’ve done copyediting and proofreading work, and, yes, what you said is the core of what I’ve done in those positions. You will probably also have to rewrite/reword confusing sentences, so strong research/Google skills are incredibly important. ElCee is right about the style manuals, too–there are a lot of them, and some of them are INCREDIBLY picky.

      I’ve never edited textbooks specifically, so I don’t know much about that, but if you’re curious, some places that might have resources are the Editorial Freelancers Association and the American Copy Editors Society. There might also be a MOOC or something you could look at just to get an idea if you’d like the day-to-day elements of the work.

    4. Mimmy*

      Thank you guys so much! I think my friend probably doesn’t realize that editing does not equal proofreading. It one of those skills that you’re very good at, but don’t always enjoy using. I’m more of a content person, to be honest.

    5. Cambridge Comma*

      If you think it would be tedious, don’t do it, you won’t be able to maintain the levels of concentration needed. You need to get a kick out of the tortuous untangling.
      And if it’s a non-editor telling you that, I would take it with a pinch of salt. The job needs very different skills than most people think.
      It sounds like you are very literate and detail-oriented, and those are great skills for a lot of professions,

  46. Ms. I Need a New Job*

    I was interviewed by a panel of four people yesterday. At the beginning of the interview, Erin, who manages operations, handed me her business card; the other three did not. Since I have Erin’s business card, I of course know her name, but I cannot remember the names of the other three, as I was too nervous to focus and retain their names. I’d like to send a thank you follow-up email. How should I do this when I don’t have the email addresses of the other three people who interviewed me and when I don’t know their names?

    1. LiteralGirl*

      I would think that you could contact the person who scheduled the interview and ask for the full names (with correct spelling) and email addresses of the people with whom you interviewed yesterday. I don’t imagine that you would be expected to remember the full names of four people. Good luck!

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you reach out to the person who organized the interview in the first place and say that you wanted to thank your interviewers for their time yesterday, but wanted to make sure you had the spelling of their names right?

      1. Ms. I Need a New Job*

        Thank you, LiteralGirl and Not a Real Giraffe. These are great suggestions. Do you have any other advise in the event that the “organizer” does not know my interviewers’ names? I have a feeling that the organizer won’t know who I interviewed with. Prior to my interview, I emailed her asking if I could find out who would be on the panel, and she said she didn’t know. Their interview set-up seems a bit weird.

        1. LiteralGirl*

          She should know now who you interviewed with, and if she doesn’t off the top of her head, she should be able to find out in short order. If not, you can send a thank you to the person who gave you the card and ask for the full names and email addresses of the others.

            1. College Career Counselor*

              You can also send a thank you email to Erin and ask her to pass along to the rest of the interviewers, since you don’t have their contact info. I realize that some may say you’re asking the interviewer to do work for you, but I think it’s easy enough for her to forward to the other people who were on the interview panel.

              1. Doriana Gray*

                I’ve done this (emailed the one person whose email address/name I remembered, and who also happened to be the hiring manager) and it wasn’t an issue (I got the job). I just said something like, “Thank you so much for speaking with me today. And please thank the rest of the interviewing team for their time as well – I greatly appreciated it.”

  47. Disabled Anon*

    My (v large) company has recently introduced an incentive for people to self identify as disabled or as a veteran by entering those who self identify in a prize drawing. I know that this information is private and won’t be disclosed to my manager, etc., but as someone with multiple invisible disabilities I don’t see any benefit to me (aside from the prize drawing) to self identifying since I don’t need any accommodations and I haven’t needed to take FMLA leave since working here. I’d be curious to know if other people know of a specific benefit (aside from ADA accommodations) or drawback to self identifying and how other people with disabilities (particularly invisible ones) decided whether or not to self identify?

    1. LCL*

      This can’t be real. Please tell me you are joking with us. HR and disability related issues aren’t what I do, but even so the idea of a drawing strikes me as insensitive. (Says the person who has got in trouble more than once for being insensitive.)

    2. katamia*

      Wooooooooooooooooooooooow. That sounds awful. I don’t think there would be any benefit to you disclosing if you don’t want/need accommodations. I’ve heard too many stories of people disclosing (autism and depression, mostly) and being treated poorly because it changed how people saw them.

    3. LiteralGirl*

      We recently received a survey, but there isn’t any incentive plan. There is simply an explanation about how it helps to comply with Federal regulations.

    4. fposte*

      I mean, I get where they’re going, in that people don’t like to self-identify and they want to raise the rates. But this is not a wise plan. I am reminded of Petula Clark’s song contribution to a telethon for disabled kids: “God Bless the Child Who Can Stand Up and Sing.” (She also sang “I Don’t Know How to Love Him” for a feminist gala. Oh, Pet.)

    5. Kassy*

      I wonder if the prize is even real?? It’s not as though they could publish the name of the winner…

    6. Amy M.*

      What? Just….what? As someone who works in HR, I find this deeply disturbing. I can see no benefit for the employees who choose to disclose that information – and to who? who is in charge of the drawing? hopefully not HR! and will the winner be announced to everyone? surely not or they would be disclosing confidential information – but possibly the company benefits (monetarily or by public perception) by having a certain percentage of it’s employees classed as veterans or disabled. Terrible.

    7. Noah*

      I understand they want to raise the % to meet a federal requirement, but this just seems icky and likely to have unintended consequences.

    8. Bea W*

      Entering people in a drawing for a prize if they self-identify? That feels wrong in ways I can quite put into words.

  48. Kairi*

    TGIF! I’m trying to stay positive, because this has been a disaster of a week! I’ve spent more time fixing problems that have negatively impacted our marketing trade shows than actually doing my main job responsibilities.

    I also had to deal with an employee taking chairs out of the office building to have an offsite at their house… I feel like I’m on a hidden camera show some days!

    1. Doriana Gray*

      I also had to deal with an employee taking chairs out of the office building to have an offsite at their house… I feel like I’m on a hidden camera show some days!

      I’m sorry, but this made me laugh out loud.

  49. SRB*

    I forget what comment earlier this week triggered this thought for me but: I love my workplace. Thank you AAM community for reminding me how lucky I am. I could wax poetic about all the reasons I love it, but I think it boils down to this: Our hiring goals are, quote: “smart, competent, and KIND”.

    The “brilliant jerk” is not welcome here. Slackers aren’t allowed to bring a team down. You’re judged not by butt-in-seat time, but deliverables. It just leads to a workplace that is so respectful of all levels of employees, diverse, and rewarding. I like all my coworkers and all my supervisors. I work hard because I like them and I appreciate the company.

    I wish more places worked like this. I don’t want to be in this industry forever, but I know I have such a good thing going on here!

  50. Mockingjay*

    Meeting Minutes Saga!

    Week 1 of new attitude nearly concluded. (I can only control my actions, so don’t fuss about what others do.) https://www.askamanager.org/2015/11/open-thread-november-13-2015.html#comment-923665

    Things went pretty well. Crazy busy and tiring, but well.

    I took the minutes for the three-day conference. Very intensive, technical meeting. It is for a large program that is being transferred to my government boss. I worked on its sister program for 6 years (the ‘nirvana’ job) at ExJob. Turns out I knew several members of the new team; they also used to be on the sister program. It was nice to see them again. Long days (10-11 hours); I arrived early, signed in the visitors, attended the meetings and took notes, signed them out at the end of the day, then cleaned up and prepped the conference room for the next day’s meeting.

    Meeting went well; I think boss is pleased. I still don’t like taking minutes. My hand hurts after three days of continuous typing – I have no transcriptionist training so I just type long sentences really fast. I took 30 pages of notes, plus prepped agendas and briefs. Hopefully my participation will lead to an opportunity to work on the new project full-time. If not, I will continue job search.

    (Meanwhile my daughter and I went to last night’s late premiere of Mockingjay Part 2!)

  51. Existential crises*

    Right now I’m supposed to be negotiating a new contract at work. I’m finding it difficult because I’ve had a lot of personal stuff happen lately and am feeling a bit lost in my life, both professionally and personally. I really don’t know if I want to stay. I’m currently living overseas, so if I don’t renew my contract, I’ll have to return home (which is fine, but it’s not easy to find jobs in my field). My job is OK- it is interesting most of the time, and I make a decent salary, but it can be frustrating and is a bit more political than I would like. I definitely don’t want to be here for the rest of my career. In fact I’m think of trying to do something different after I move on from this…perhaps fulfill my long standing dream to start my own business in a distantly related field (which i have some experience in from past jobs and personal volunteer work). But to do that I need money, which I probably can only save if I stay with this job for another contract (3-4 years).

    I’m not even really sure what my question is, except, how do I handle contract negotiations when I honestly do not know if, and how long, I want to stay? With my personal life having been upended in the last month, I’m worried about making any commitments right now, but is there any way to say that to my boss without sounding completely flaky?

    1. Existential crisis*

      And apparently I can’t spell “crisis” or remain anonymous, since my gravatar followed me.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yep, and I just did it here.

          Your gravatar is connected to your email address, so just don’t put your email address in the commenting box if you don’t want it to appear!

    2. fposte*

      I’m not the one feeling the emotional upheaval, but it sounds to me like a contract renewal for the short end of the time frame seems like a reasonable thing. I think now might be a time when it’s impossible to know what you genuinely want, so maybe it’s a time to prioritize the genuinely useful and the likely-not-to-suck.

      How does that idea make you feel?

      1. Existential crisis*

        My boss has suggested 4 years for the next contract length. I don’t know how she’ll react if I suggest a shorter contract. She might see me as a flight risk. But 4 years seems so long right now.

        Right now I’m trying to talk myself into staying because I make way more money here than I will if I go home. But I’m not sure the money is enough to keep me happy here for 4 years.

        1. fposte*

          If you’d be miserable, then don’t stay. But maybe think about just how happy you need to be in relation to the payoff you’re looking for. That doesn’t mean I’m saying you totally have to stay because money is enough, just that when there’s personal upheaval going on it can be hard to be happy anywhere.

          But you know, if you say you’re trying to talk yourself into staying, that sounds like a serious indication it may be time to go. What would that be like? Do you have contacts you can reach out to there in advance to check things out? Is the job-hunting doable for you?

  52. Andraste*

    Does anyone have advice on what to do about having a controversial employer on your resume? Think women’s health.

    The situation is unfortunate all around and I’m not sure how to fix it. I got a job at controversial employer last year. Unfortunately, while I still support controversial employer’s mission overall, the job was a nightmare. My department was really poorly managed and toxic in addition. The job also required significantly more travel than I was originally told. It just did not work out. I quit after 7 months and spent the next several months preparing for/testing/achieving a certification in my field. Now I’m back job searching again and not having tons of luck. The one-two punch of “short time at last employer” and “last employer was controversial” can’t be helping and I don’t know how to recover. Obviously if I could go back in time and make different choices I never would have taken the job, but that’s not possible and now I’m stuck.

    Any advice?

    1. Anxa*

      Is a move possible?

      The only public health jobs I saw posted in my area were with women’s health orgs, and they were temporary and part-time. I was very hesitant to apply for those. Even our public college uses a CPC as their women’s health resource, if that’s any sort of clue as to how the political climate for that goes around here.

      1. Andraste*

        My partner and I might actually be moving to another state in January if he gets a promotion he’s in the running for! … but the state is also conservative. :( Much bigger city though, so there will be more opportunities.

        I’m just so frustrated about the whole thing. I was so excited about that job, excited to be doing something I was passionate about and making a difference. Wanted to stay there a long time, but it was awful. Definite learning experience in employer red flags, but sometimes learning the hard way through making mistakes kinda sucks.

    2. Kassy*

      Even in my highly conservative area, I don’t think most hiring managers would write you off because of that employment. (I live in Missouri and one organization in that field has gotten a LOT of crazy press over the last several months.)
      If hiring managers are good, they’re going to be looking at your experience, your specific accomplishments at that job, and what skills you brought to the table, not its overall mission (provided you weren’t the ED or a position of that sort). Make sure your resume focuses on what YOU did, not what THEY do (which, it should anyway!).
      When asked about the length of that stint, you can always cite the travel (provided the next job you go in for isn’t heavily travel-based) being much more than you expected. I think most employers will get that, but it won’t cross the line into bad-mouthing.

      1. Observer*

        Also, focus on the fact that you left the job and went into a training program that led to a certification. “I left the job because I couldn’t deal with the travel” is not terrible but not great. “I didn’t like the travel, so I took the opportunity to step back, and decided to leave and get this training that would improve my skills and usefulness.” is MUCH better.

        1. Andraste*

          Thanks Kassy and Observer! Those are both helpful pieces of advice about how to phrase things when talking about why I left my former employer.

          Kassy you are also right that a lot of managers wouldn’t write me off because of my former employer. I do know from working for that organization that while controversial, more people do support it than is obvious, although people might be more private about their support. Good reminder to keep my chin up and keep applying. Thanks!

      2. Nashira*

        The stuff going down in Missouri makes me regularly want to wander downtown in Jeff and give a few people (KURT SCHAEFER) a piece of my mind. Omfg. How did Columbia even elect him? He’s so gross, so hideously gross.

  53. LiteralGirl*

    Question about applying for an internal position:
    There is an internal position for which I meet all of the basic requirements as well as about 85-90% of the preferred experience/skill set. I really want to apply to it, and if selected, go through the interview process. The thing is, I’m not 100% sure I would want the job. If by some miracle I am offered the position, do I need to accept it? If I don’t, will that reflect badly on me with regard to applying for other positions in the future? The company is pretty large, and the new job is in another department. I don’t want to burn any bridges.
    Thanks for any input!

    1. EmilyG*

      Why do you really want to apply for it if you aren’t sure you would want the job? I think this question has been raised here before with the consensus that yes, it would reflect badly on you (because you’re wasting the time of your own organization/colleagues).

      Can you approach the hiring manager discreetly and arrange to ask whatever questions would make you more sure?

      1. LiteralGirl*

        I don’t know who the hiring manager is, but I could reach out to someone in the position. That’s a good idea – Thanks EmilyG!

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yeah, it is a bit trickier to turn down an internal offer. But you definitely should have a better chance of chatting up someone in that department (the hiring manager, or even a potential coworker, or both) about the position. In fact, they’d probably appreciate the opportunity to determine how good of a fit you would be.

  54. Tris Prior*

    Does anyone else work somewhere where the employees are responsible for snow removal, and if so, is one person responsible for it or do you rotate the duty? Also, is it considered paid time?

    My former manager used to do it, but he no longer works here. Also, he was salaried. I am the first one at work every morning, and also the only one who has really time-sensitive daily deadlines, so I do NOT want all of this to fall to me every time or else it’s going to make it even harder to get my work done on time. I think it should be shared among all of us somehow. I want to propose some sort of rotating schedule, but am not sure how to do that when a) it’s not like it snows on a regular schedule and b) everyone works different days so it’s likely that someone might not be in when their turn comes up.

    (Before anyone asks, paying for snow removal, or for a snowblower to use ourselves, is a complete nonstarter with our managers, and the landlord will not do it. Yet, we’ll get fined by the city if our sidewalks aren’t clear enough.)

    1. University Girl*

      Love your name!

      At my job in grad school everyone participated. You did it on the clock so you got paid (we were hourly except for management).

      1. Tris Prior*

        How did you get everyone to participate? Did you have an official rotation (Four will take the first snowstorm, Christina the second, Caleb the third…) or was it a more informal “hey, I got it last time, can you do it this time?”

        I like my co-workers, but they (and I include myself in this) tend to be one of those groups where if something is not specifically assigned to someone, no one steps up. This is mostly due to unreasonably high workload/short-staffing than laziness, though.

    2. Kassy*

      Would you get fined by the city, or would your landlord? If the latter, it might be worth mentioning.

      Also, since it is a work duty and they are dictating what you are doing at that time, I would think it would be paid time (provided you’re not exempt).

      1. Tris Prior*

        You know…. I’m honestly not sure whether the fine would go to the business or to the landlord. I should look into that.

    3. xarcady*

      What are we talking about here? A one-shovel-width wide path to the door or an entire parking lot?

      IMO, any task that is designated, “If anyone sees that it needs to be done, then do it,” becomes a task either never gets done, or gets done by one person who becomes grumpy and unhappy about being the only person who does said task.

      I’d go to the managers and ask them what *they* plan to do about snow removal. You are especially concerned, because if you are delayed in entering the building because the snow hasn’t been taken care of, you might miss your extremely time-sensitive deadline waiting outside for someone to come and deal with the snow.

      Don’t volunteer to do this. If asked to do this, say no. If forced to do this, ask for some reasonable sort of compensation–both to make up for the time needed (would you have to arrive earlier than usual?) and to take into account the deadlines you will now be missing.

      I have worked for some very cheap bosses/companies, and I’ve had to lug toilet paper from the basement to the bathrooms, but I’ve never worked anyplace where the building owners or management didn’t take care of the snow.

      1. Tris Prior*

        We’re talking about the entire length of sidewalk in front of our company, a path to the door, and a small parking lot. (We wouldn’t get fined for the parking lot, I don’t think, as it’s for employees, but the sidewalk in front of our building has to be clear; this is a very pedestrian friendly city. It does REALLY suck when you have to do that careful penguin-waddle when walking to the train or bus because no one shoveled and you’re afraid of breaking your neck!)

        I am planning on bringing this up with my boss during our next 1-1 meeting, and I was curious as to how other small companies handle it so I had some idea of what options to present (he tends to prefer when we bring him possible solutions rather than just mentioning a problem and saying, “what are you going to do about this?) . I suspect it’s just one of those things that no one has really thought about, because the last few winters my previous boss who doesn’t work here any more did it every time without comment or complaint, or being asked to. Actually, I think he enjoyed it, the sick freak…. ;)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I worked for a couple places where the employees shoveled. This doesn’t really help your question about how to make sure everyone takes their turn but here is some stuff that was helpful:

          Get those push shovels and shovel a few times rather than waiting for the snow to pile up.
          Take a rotary spreader- the kind used for putting down grass seed and use that for spreading salt.
          Here is a good trick- if snow will start AFTER the work day ends, then just before everyone leaves have someone salt all the areas. It makes a big difference in the morning.
          And have plan B for Big Storms. Ask businesses nearby who they use. That person/company may offer you a break if they are already coming to do another business. Or they may give you a break if you just want to go on an as requested basis.

          I actually did not mind the salting part. With the rotary spreader it went really fast, and much easier than when I do it at home.

          1. Xarcady*

            I like the idea of checking with neighboring buildings. You might find out that it isn’t that expensive to have someone come and do the work for you.

            That might be your best case argument. “We can hire Joe’s Snow Removal, who can clear the walks and parking lot for about $25 per storm–and they’ll come back during the day if necessary for no extra charge. It would take me an hour to do that, and I’m paid $22/hour, and it would either mean my getting here an hour early, so I’d get extra pay that day, or I’d come on time, shovel and miss my deadlines. Which would you prefer?”

            Plow guys usually have a per storm rate and a one-price-for-the-whole-season rate. Call around and see if you can get some estimates.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              And that pricing is about how it plays out around here, too. If interested, OP could probably find someone who would do it for a flat rate for an entire season- for here I would estimate $350. It’s not outrageously expensive, and it does save the employer from killing off his own employees when that big storm hits.

    4. Clever Name*

      This sounds like something my small company would do. :/

      I believe if you are hourly, your company has to pay you for that time.

  55. So Very Anonymous*

    Following on the in-comments conversation earlier this week on gender and emotional labor, I’m wondering if people (especially women) about how they’ve set limits on the face of a lot of pressure to be nice, caring, etc.? I’m in a “helping” profession which is heavily female with mostly male leadership, and the pressure from colleagues, higher ups, and patrons to do this kind of caring work for large numbers of people is burning me out. I’m curious to hear if/how others have dealt with this.

    1. Anon For This One, too.*

      I’m in a helping field, and I straight up don’t like one of my students. He grates on me, is rude, is there for help for a class that I frankly think is very easy (but isn’t everyone’s strong point) but then goes on about how easy some of the topics are in a condescending manner and just generally makes me uncomfortable. He’s weird and I don’t think has any friends. I’m constantly torn between trying to be a positive figure in his life and feeling sympathetic to having to fight back the snarky comments when he’s really pushing my buttons (and he does–he straight up told me I was getting old and need to have babies soon).

      I was able to mitigate it by telling my boss he’s a handful and I can only do one-on-one sessions with him. He was derailing my sessions way too much in group. He seemed pretty understanding of how draining that kind of work would be, but he’s in the field as well and has taught.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      It’s kinda strange for us where I work. On the one hand, we are a “helping” profession (legal aid/social work), but our office functions much more like a small law firm than a legal aid org. We’re all expected to treat clients with abundant compassion, caring, understanding, etc. but when it comes to each other… let’s just say there’s a certain degree of (respectful) snark utilized in each meeting. I think being able to gently rib each other eases the pressure of having to be overly caring the rest of the day. Maybe it’s unfair of me, but I always felt like the ones who were constantly in “helping” mode were being phonies.

      The line is that you never poke fun at the client who left you four incoherent voicemails but you DO poke fun at Lillian who sent the allstaff email without the attachment AGAIN.

    3. Kassy*

      I’m in social work (well, I’m an admin, but I’m an admin for social workers), and I think it would help you to research secondary traumatic stress. (I’d offer some practical advice but we haven’t actually rolled out the training yet! Sorry!)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I burned out. So take what I am writing and realize it has limits.

      There were times where a person would push my buttons and I landed on telling myself to pretend I was a man. How would a man handle this? (Not kidding, I really did this.) What I was striving for was the way men can just shut things down, as in “NO. That’s enough.” So I copied their decisiveness. The tricky part was applying that decisiveness in a fair manner. This is something you cultivate over time. I started with the most outrageous of requests, “NO. I don’t have time to accommodate that request.” Then after a bit I moved on to the requests that were not necessary and really draining me. “This task X has gotten very time consuming and we need to do it often. Let’s look at ways to make it easier or to eliminate the need for it entirely.” Some people hated that answer and some people loved it. It was interesting to watch the responses.

      I decided there was a difference between a hand up and a hand out, kind of like fishing poles vs fish. I learned I’m a fishing pole kind of person. I rode that for a while and that was okay. I was showing people how to do things and that slowed my burnout as I did not have to handle every. single. thing.

      But I realized too many cohorts were handing out fish. Then, I had to take a look at my fit with the company. What did me in was the regs, that was the last straw. See, even after I took control over what was expected out of me, there were still many other things going on that I had to consider in the end.

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Thanks for the viewpoints, y’all — I’ve been distracted by having had tests done on Friday.

        @Kassy, I’m not dealing with trauma victims (I work at a university), but I’ll look into secondary traumatic stress (is that similar to compassion fatigue?). I had been thinking more in terms of how I feel like I’m supposed to be emotionally there for almost literally everyone around me at work — colleagues, patrons, etc. — and make sure no one gets their feelings hurt or feels bad about anything (down to things like having to absorb people being upset with me for things I have NO control over, like that the suite I work in is difficult to find, or that not everything they could possibly need is available online). I also feel like I am constantly dumbing myself down or being self-deprecating because my specific background is threatening to some colleagues. This semester I’ve been teaching my own class and the amount of autonomy and control I have in contrast to my regular job has been just CRAZY. And I’m just getting really worn thin — I’m far away from people who know me as more than just my job, and I feel like I need some space where I have more control and am not just taking care of everyone else’s feelings, or having to put everyone else’s needs first.

        @NotSo NewReader (you are always a great source of wisdom on this site!), I 100% know what you mean about the fishing pole and the fish — we talk a lot in my field about teaching people how to fish, and I expected my job to be that. But so many of my colleagues give away fish because they want to be liked. Additionally, the client department I work with tells their students that I am The One True Source Of All Fish (not the case!), and so I feel like I am having to manage expectations of Fish-Giving-Out and also dealing with negative reactions to my quite real inability to have exactly the right fish on hand to give out (which I get from colleagues as well as patrons — my quite real knowledge that NO one has that extensive of a fish collection doesn’t count!)

        I have a male friend who is GREAT at just shutting certain kinds of things down without being a jerk about it, and I’ve been trying to channel him, but feeling so out of sync with my colleagues is really wearing on me (hey, look, medical tests!). I definitely need to leave, but jobs in the field I want to be in are few and far between, and I’m not able to just pick up and leave.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay, lots of meat and potatoes here, goood!. So let’s talk meat and potatoes.

          1)”I had been thinking more in terms of how I feel like I’m supposed to be emotionally there for almost literally everyone around me at work — colleagues, patrons, etc. — and make sure no one gets their feelings hurt or feels bad about anything ”

          This one is pretty straightforward. Decide today, right now, that you will not carry other people’s emotions for them. For a nice reason tell yourself: “It’s not my job. These people are adults.” For a scolding reason tell yourself: “Nothing will change until I change.”

          2) “down to things like having to absorb people being upset with me for things I have NO control over, like that the suite I work in is difficult to find, or that not everything they could possibly need is available online)”

          Put up an invisible-to-them shield. Their upset is not your upset. Before you speak say to yourself, “I will not absorb your upset.” We don’t teach people how to be self-sufficient adults by absorbing their upset. I used to work with a person who would have a five minute nutty about everything. After a bit it amused me and I said, “You know if you canceled the five minute nutty, you would finished the task five minutes sooner.” (It was usually a three minute task, so, yeah, huge waste of energy. He wondered how I got so much work done.)

          3) ” I also feel like I am constantly dumbing myself down or being self-deprecating because my specific background is threatening to some colleagues.”

          This one becomes a habit so for this I recommend walking yourself down from it. Start by deciding every other time it happens you are not going to respond in your usual manner. You are going to be your full/true self and you are going to carry the expectation that they do likewise. You expect to see their best behavior and professional behavior.

          There is nothing wrong with eliminating jargon so people not in the field can follow along. There is plenty wrong with putting yourself down often. Remember there is a big difference between apologizing for a mistake and pointing out every mistake you made today. For your own mental well-being watch this one.

          4)”I’m far away from people who know me as more than just my job…”

          I think this means friends and family. Do you have a good calling plan? Call them. Make it a point to check in with someone who knows you well at least every other week. OR find a church group, hobby group, volunteer work that you can use as your escape hatch to be around sane people.

          5) “I feel like I need some space where I have more control and am not just taking care of everyone else’s feelings, or having to put everyone else’s needs first.”

          This is the feeling I had when I got involved in alternative med stuff. My vitamins and minerals were at new lows. I had nothing left, physically, emotionally, mentally. My personal belief is to have a practitioner help me. I did not feel that I should be deciding what to take and how much, given my mash-potatoey mind set.

          Make sure you are drinking water, cut back on junk food as best you can. Insist on getting good rest. I used the middle day of the week as my early to bed day. I needed that recharge in the middle of the week.

          6) Fishes and fishing poles. Pick something.

          Go back to the people who are saying you give out free fish and tell them to stop. Tell them you do not give out free fish and they are confusing everyone when they say that.

          OR

          Take the preemptive strike by announcing, “There’s no free fish here and this is WHY [insert reasons].

          OR
          As individuals approach you, “Big Whig said you give out free fish.” Then you nip it right away, “well that is not entirely true. I have been helpful to people, so people think I give out free fish. But what I am actually offering is this lovely fishing pole. It works very well, here, I will show you.”

          My preference was the individual approach. Because it allowed me to build relationships with people. I had less and less interference from Big Whig, because people knew how they could count on me.

          In short this is an issue with many aspects. A good approach will consist of doing more than one thing. However, you can pace the introduction of each new thing. Start step A and do that for a week or so. Then start Step B and do that for a week or so….. and so on. What ticked me off, was that me- the Worn Out Person- had to initiate all this. The good side is that you pick what tweaks you are making and how you are making them.

  57. Christina*

    I just had a meeting with the vp of my org (two levels above my boss) to ask what exactly the role of the team I’m on is supposed to me. This came about because my boss (head of communications) spent 40 minutes talking about how we should all be trained in Google Analytics so we can make more reports, laughed at and dismissed me when I said I had 180 people signed up for an event that day, and then mentioned off-hand that the VP hired a freelance writer for a major project. There are two trained writers on this team. I. Was. Furious. And honestly it made me scared for my job.

    So I asked for 15 minutes with the VP essentially saying it seems like my team’s focus has shifted from actually producing things to making a lot of reports and trying to be business analysts, and is that something that will continue, or am I misreading? He said he had no idea why we were being asked for all these reports, that he thinks our value is absolutely in producing content, and that, essentially, no, my job is not at risk in his eyes (and he was not happy the freelancer was hired–it wasn’t his decision).

    It was excellent vindication that my boss is insane and I look forward to telling the new guy they hired to be her boss about it. And I was so proud of myself for not chickening out on talking to him!

    2. Aisling*

      I’m glad you talked to the VP! Sounds like he needed to know. Hopefully your team gets more focus soon.

  58. The Other Dawn*

    My department is preparing a training session of about 45 minutes for a series of annual training sessions that start on Monday and will be repeated 6 more times over 3 weeks. These sessions are presented by several different departments in order to cover a variety of security-related and compliance-related topics and will last about 4 hours in total.

    Someone in another department, Sally, contacted me this past Wednesday about some other training and the discussion got around to this annual training. She said that she wanted another department to attend our portion of the training; these people normally do not attend this training because 99% of it doesn’t relate to them. I told her that the small portion she’s asking them to attend will only be about 5 to 10 minutes, that I had already created my outline, and I was extremely pressed for time due to very high priority things going on so wouldn’t have time to add more to make it worth their time and effort. I also mentioned that I had planned on doing a special training session for these people. I also mentioned that I’m wondering if they will really get anything out of it. She said she wanted them to attend and asked if I could push that one topic to the top of the agenda. Sure, no problem. So, these people are coming in from all over, they are typically on the road, and they’re coming to listed to a 10 minute presentation that isn’t really tailored to them; it applies to them, but the requirements are a little different.

    I really feel like we would be wasting their time. My boss agrees and so do a few other people. I’ve heard from other employees (long timers) that this group can be quick to anger and will likely be upset that they had to come in for 10 minutes. And I don’t blame them at all; I’d be pissed too. So, I’m dreading doing this training on Monday.

    My question is, how do I handle this? I don’t think anyone will say anything during the training. I’m thinking they will likely be pissed and gripe a lot afterwards, though. I’m hoping that they realize, though, that it’s Sally, and not my department, that is making them go. I’m also worried that they will think that we didn’t let Sally know that it would be so short. I just don’t know if there’s anything I can do or say either before, during, or after that might smooth things over. Ideally, we would NOT ask them to attend; however, Sally said that 43 people had already signed up and she wanted them to go (as of yesterday early morning).

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Can you put out an agenda our outline ahead of time, so that it’ll be clear that you’re only spending a few minutes on that department’s area? Not everyone will look at it, but if even one of them does, they might start questioning why they’re going, and it’s a very low-risk method of getting that information out there.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just say something as part of your presentation, without naming names, of course.
      “Department A people, I realize that you are only here for this short segment. It will be about ten minutes long. I appreciate you coming in for this.”

      Then say something about “A Power greater than mine, felt it was important for you to be here.”

      Maybe have coffee and donuts for them when it is over.

      When they grumble, go back to “Remember, I told you it was ‘a Power greater than me’ who said you needed to be here.”

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I was thinking about that. I want to make it clear that I’m not the one making them go. And I admit I’m a little worried about it affecting my reputation with these people.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I use to put a soft smile of regret on my face, gently shake my head and say, “This comes from a power greater than me [a source who is not me or similar wording].” Most people would get it and back off. One thing that helped me was just to agree with them. I took a stance of, “You know what, you are right! But here we are anyway and how many times does this happen in life. OFTEN. We got through it before and we will get through it now, too.” Maybe I did not always say it in that many words.

          Some times things are not under my control. I don’t have a big need to cover other people’s tracks. I won’t deliberately put them down but if someone says, “hey, this is stupid.” I have nodded in agreement and said, “Yep. And we are going to do this anyway. Like you, I am following instructions. “

      2. Mimmy*

        What I do is make a mental note of who starts the thread right below where I’m commenting, make my comment, then use the “find” feature to go to where I left off.

        So for example, Raia has a thread right below this one. Once I post this comment, I’ll search for “Raia” and I’ll be back to where I was.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I like the change, but I’m confused why there can not be a link between the child and parent comment, is there no way to point the page back to the original comment that was replied to?

  60. Raia*

    Has anyone had experience with Upwork? Desperate to make money, but the only calls and interviews I’ve gotten are from retail.

    1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

      I use Upwork pretty consistently. What type of work are you looking for on it? I’m a freelance writer with grant writing experience.

      The key is to have a niche, and a really killer portfolio. Set a reasonable rate, and don’t be demoralised by all the crappy and low paying jobs. I probably decline 2-5 interviews a week for someone who wants to pay me $1 to write 100 words. But I jut recently finished three lucrative contracts on there that paid me, on average, $30 an hour.

  61. eliza*

    So I received a raise this week! Hooray! But I have a question. I’ve worked at this company for 2 years, it’s my first office job where I’ve gotten salary increases, and each time when I’ve had a salary increase (they do annual cost of living increases) my manager has written the numbers on a post-it and handed it to me instead of saying something out loud or giving me a formal piece of paper. I don’t object and I’m not offended, but I am super curious – is this standard at other companies? If so, is it somehow related to the taboo around discussing salaries? If you have to write it down, why a handwritten note instead of formal documentation?

    2. FurnitureLady*

      Congratulations! Yeah, I’ve had this at other places – the most recent had a “salary card” in your personnel file and they basically updated it and showed it to you at your review. It was weird to me – why not just say ” you’re getting $ raise”? I think there is weirdness in general about talking money/salary in the workplace for some reason.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think that’s because 1) some people are very private about it, and it could be overheard if spoken, but mostly 2) if they say “two” quietly enough, some egotistic dolt might swear the manager said “twelve” or “twenty”, so this way they know that the amount is clearly communicated.

      I mean, our company does personnel action forms, and we get a copy (goldenrod, of course!), but the principle is the same, maybe your company just doesn’t use forms for raises.

    4. Noah*

      My boss sends me an email. I assume it is the open plan office, lack of privacy issue combined with the fact that he has to do the annual evaluation first then send it to his boss with a raise recommendation to be negotiated and approved. We schedule a meeting and conf room for the actual eval, but it seems silly to do it again for a quick “you’re getting a $2k per year increase”.

    5. hermit crab*

      I also get raise post-its! But my manager also tells me out loud, at the same time. One time I asked the “why post-its?” question and was basically told that it’s how it’s always been done here.

      1. Sarah*

        When I tell one of my staff that they’re getting a raise, I do it verbally, but then leave them with the post-it note. I wonder why the dang post-it note is so common!

  62. Anonymous writing*

    My editor occasionally adds things to my writing. Unfortunately, he adds spelling and grammar mistakes. He seems to think that it’s no big deal – or that certain rules are just weird little idiosyncrasies of mine.

    I’ve brought it up, but nothing has improved. I don’t want to be disrespectful or embarrass him. Help?

      1. Anonymous writing*

        You’re probably right. :( I’m looking for new work, but I don’t feel confident about it when my published work looks like this.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Do you have an in-house style guide? Follow an industry standard (Chicago Manual of Style, AP Style Book, etc.)?

      Easier to push back on mistakes: “Hey, boss, according to the style guide, that sentence should use a serial comma.”

        1. Cat Mechanic*

          I’m sorry, your editor (copy editor?) is not following the style guide, from which you can quote the mistakes? Where did this editor come from? I apologize on behalf of all college-newspaper-trained copy editors who graduated before news websites were a thing. Your words are not my words to own.

    3. Cambridge Comma*

      Editor as in you’ve written a book or editor as in you work for a newspaper? If you’re sure that they are mistakes, fire the book editor (but you don’t want to be the guy complaining because comprised of was changed to comprises). If it’s a newspaper, I guess he’s the boss and there’s not much you can do about it.

      1. Anonymous writing*

        News site. Sometimes he lets me fix things, but I feel like he thinks I’m doing this to satisfy a personal need to nitpick, not to make sure that my work doesn’t have embarrassing errors in it.

    4. squids*

      Same here! It’s our communications department. Each time I send something through, I’m crossing fingers they don’t touch it at all.

  63. Carla*

    One of the VP’s at my work is having her first grandchild. The admin sent out an email out to the company asking people to contribute to a surprise “grand baby shower”. My first reaction was horror. I like this VP and I work closely with her sometimes but she’s my boss. I’m happy for her but I don’t really care that her son and daughter and law decided to procreate. I wasn’t sure what I should do because I didn’t want to just no show up since this is a small team and everyone would notice. I thought of approaching the CEO and voicing my thought but in the end I decided to just suck it up and contributed $10 for a gift card, signed a group card, and attended the party which was held after hours. I’m still shocked that the CEO thought this was appropriate but I guess for this work culture, this isn’t all that unusual. Some of the other grandmothers in the company were more than happy to pitch in, others brought personal presents and personal cards. I thought it was all very sweet but inappropriate. There have been plenty of other people who became grandparents in the company but none of them got a party. I’ve seen a few small parties held by other teams for wedding showers and baby showers but this one really rubbed me the wrong way.

    What do others think?

    1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Oh god. I think the whole concept of “grandparent showers” is weird and gift grabby, and I would be horrified to participate in one AT WORK. I wouldn’t probably have given any money, but maybe signed a group card all the while thinking “weird weird weird.”

      1. EmilyG*

        Agreed. Super weird. Does the grandparent need help setting up their home for the baby…? Also, I would not like to be this person’s daughter in law.

    5. Gillian*

      We had a very low-key grand baby celebration earlier this year, but it was mainly an excuse to have snacks at a regular department meeting. The grandbaby in question was also living in our team member’s house, so it was presented as “we’re going to celebrate with Phyllis, bring a pack of diapers if you’d like to.” Aside from passing around a couple of pictures of the new baby, we pretty much just had our regular meeting. A full-blown shower would have been weird.

    6. Lillian McGee*

      My mom’s coworkers threw her a grandbaby shower. It might have been because of the circumstances… my sister-in-law suffered some majorly scary complications during (a very very premature) birth… and it was their way of being supportive. Also they live across the country from us. I dunno, I thought it was sweet of them. They are probably mostly grandmas themselves (elementary school teachers)!

      1. Lillian McGee*

        And to be clear, all the gifts she got were for the new mom, not the grandma… so I guess technically it was just a baby shower where the mom wasn’t expected to attend…?

        If people are giving gifts for the grandma then yes, I agree that’s insane.

        1. Artemesia*

          I so don’t want to give baby gifts for a woman I don’t even know because she is the daughter of someone I work with. I think this is totally horrific. A person who is a close friend who wants to do this perhaps because of the scary circumstances here is one thing — but organizing it at work should be out of bounds. Perhaps in this case, it was a small enough and close enough group that people didn’t feel shanghaied into giving gifts.

    7. Ad Astra*

      Yeah, that’s weird. The purpose of a baby shower is to stock the family up with baby supplies. Why would a grandmother need baby supplies? I could see this being a really kind gesture if the grandmother and the parents were both in a tough situation and truly needed the help, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case here.

      1. Jennifer*

        And I thought it was bad my cousin was having a second baby shower 2 years after the first baby.

        Seriously, this makes no sense if the grandbaby isn’t living with grandparents.

      2. Artemesia*

        Actually the traditional purpose of a baby shower was to welcome a woman into motherhood; this is why they are not appropriate for second babies — you only become a mother once. They used to be low cost items — now people are registering for baby monitors, car seats, high chairs, cribs etc and inviting everyone who ever met the couple — and now alas, people who only know the parents of the couple.

    8. Allison*

      “grand baby shower”

      This is a thing now? People do this? Why? I mean, I’m sure becoming a grandparent is exciting, but a shower? As in, they’re gonna shower them with gifts because one of their adult children has started reproducing? That’s ridiculous.

    10. could be anyone*

      “There have been plenty of other people who became grandparents in the company but none of them got a party. I’ve seen a few small parties held by other teams for wedding showers and baby showers ..”
      This is why I don’t like these things at work. Too often it’s about who your friends are and what they like. So some get showers, some don’t. Had one place that would do goodbye lunch for employees’ last day. What you had and how many there depended on who organized it and how well you were liked/position. We had one guy get a cupcake and card at his desk when he retired while others got lunch and presents when they quit. My husband and I were the only ones who made it out with a lunch.

    11. Artemesia*

      I am a grandmother and I am horrified that this is being done not for an employee but for an employee who is becoming a grandmother and for her adult child. Yikes. It would be inappropriate for an employee at VP level and barely acceptable if the donations were small for a co-worker and then only if voluntary.

      I have found that admins sometimes get the bit and run with ridiculous suck up events to solicit gifts for higher ups and the role of those higher ups should be to absolutely put a stop to this. I have been in offices where this spiraled out of control until some disaster or major pushback.

      This is ludicrous — not even borderline acceptable.

  64. ToQuitOrNotToQuit*

    I am currently employed but have decided that I need to move on. I’m great in a task-focused environment but where I am now is much more people-focused. What kind of interview questions should I ask that could help me better filter out the people-focused workplaces? I prefer brisk, to-the-point interactions focused on the work at hand. What questions should I ask when they ask, “Do you have any questions for us?” Also, what yellow flags would indicate that the particular workplace emphasizes sociability? “We’re like a family here!” is one I already know to watch out for.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I think no matter where you go, there will be people who are task-oriented and people who are people-oriented. I think asking questions about what the culture is like and how teams interact with each other might help get some of this information out, though.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think that an environment that is focused on creating something would be more task focused than people focused. I am thinking of hands on work, such as making products, computer work, and so on.
      Anything where people are buying a product directly from you is going to be people focused. Any business that serves people- health care, insurance, retailing and the like is going to be all about the people who come in.

      Looking at it even closer, depending on what positions you are interested in that also could impact your choices.

      One thing that helped me with the “people factor” is to look at the nature of the business. When I worked with plants I got a lot different type of customer than when I worked in a mall or a seasonal job.

  65. Not my usual name*

    Not commenting under my usual name although I really really want to….

    Anyway. My probation period in work is coming to an end. Everything seemed to be fine, I’m achieving my objectives and getting on well with the team and enjoying the work, then out of the blue my line manager tells me that he’s looking to extend my probationary period, and not because my work isn’t up to scratch, but because of health reasons, and that there is no increased chance of my appointment not being confirmed but that’s what he’s going to do.

    This came as a massive shock.

    Now yesterday it transpires that they’re reconsidered and think it’s probably not necessary.

    I’m really shaken up and it’s kind of knocked my faith in my line manager and workplace. Why hadn’t he told me earlier that there were potential problems? Why the sudden turnaround?

    I don’t want to leave my job, I enjoy it and I’m finally feeling like I’m making a decent contribution to the team. But at the same time I’m suddenly not sure any more.

    1. Not my usual name*

      Oh yeah and my objectives have mysteriously grown to include a couple that are just weird. I’m not really sure what to do about it !

      2. Not my usual name*

        health issues that I am having that aren’t affecting my work output. Any more details would make it too identifiable unfortunately :(

        1. blackcat*

          Are they health issues that would be covered under ADA?

          If so, you could say what Alison encourages people to say, “I’m not sure you’re aware that basing probationary status decisions on X condition could get the company into legal trouble under ADA. If you have concerns about my work, I’m happy to address them.”

    3. oldfashionedlovesong*

      What does “health reasons” even mean in the context of extending a probationary period? This would knock me for a loop as well. But if you really do feel positive about the job other than this incident, maybe ask your line manager for a check-in and just say you would be happy to address any lingering issues if he’d like to review them?

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I could imagine it if a person were out of the office a lot — not that it was negatively affecting their work, but that I hadn’t actually had 3 months (or whatever) of their time to evaluate.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I understand you can’t put a lot of detail, so this is more or less a shot in the dark on my part.

      The times that I have seen this done is because the employer wants to see how the employee’s attendance and punctuality will play out over time. And that is only something time will tell. Anyone can be okay for a few months. But how are they with the long haul?
      This may or may not fit your setting.

      I think what bothers me here the most is that the employer does not seem to be able to tell what the exact concern is. That means they are hiding it OR they do not know how to verbalize the exact concern. So this sets you to walking on eggshells because of being uncertain and then they start thinking that your behavior is peculiar, then things get weird – BTDT- so I know the cycle.

      My suggestion is to go back in for a second conversation. “Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.” You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Tell the boss the positives- you like the job, you want to do well here and so on. Make sure the boss knows this part. Tell her that you are concerned about your previous conversations and you would like to keep the lines of communication open because you want to succeed at this job. Ask her a few questions to clarify the previous conversation. [I am not sure what would be most helpful to ask but put some thought into over the weekend and see what you think would help you if you had more info.] When she is done be sure to thank her. Tell her you will work on these things and you will want to touch base in a bit. See how it goes. It could be that the whole thing just dries up and blows away. It could be that since they are in the getting-to-know-you stage they have misinterpreted or misspoke or something on their end that has nothing to do with you.

  66. Whatsinadream*

    I would love advice from this crowd – my personal dream job just posted and is open for the next week. I am very interested, but it wants direct management experience and while I have managed interns I have not been a team manager. Should I bother to apply and explain in my cover letter why I could be an amazing choice, or should I hold on for a few years till I have that experience?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You have nothing to lose by applying, right? For what it’s worth, if I’m looking for someone with management experience, managing interns probably isn’t going to cut it — but you still have nothing to lose by applying and finding out.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        I understand the logic behind your decision, and have a question about it. Is there a way to move from a non people-manager position into a management position without being promoted within my company (it’s way too small, there’s no one TO manage)? Or is it mostly a lost cause because people wanting to hire managers, want to hire ones with experience?

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think it’s hard to go from no people-management experience into managing a team — but easier to go to managing a single person, and then move up from there. So that’s what I’d probably look for. When you’re managing a whole team, it’s a bigger part of the job and it makes more sense to look for people who have a track record of doing it successfully (especially since so much of learning to manage happens from learning as you go, and you don’t want someone using an entire team as their guinea pig), but it’s an easier sell if it’s “manage this one person.”

          1. CrazyCatLady*

            ooh good to know, thanks. I just had a phone interview for a position where I would be managing one person and she asked if I had any supervisory experience. I said that I don’t because the places I’ve worked have been exceptionally small, but I’ve managed projects, processes and have assigned work to others independently of management approval – but I haven’t been responsible for hire/fire/ or directly evaluating performance.

            I was hoping that to move to just supervising one person wouldn’t be as big of a hurdle.

        3. Development professional*

          One thing that helped me get over this hump to get my current job (where I manage one person) is to take a class at the Management Center – where they use Alison’s book as a text book! I’m not a shill, I promise, but I just thought it was great. They do them in a bunch of cities around the US, they’re only two days, and they aren’t that expensive. In my case, my previous job paid for me to do it, as they were getting ready to move one of our assistants to report to me, but I don’t think it’s a terribly hard sell in some cases to say to your boss, I’d like to move into a management role someday and I think this course would help me understand what skills I need to be able to do that. When I was interviewing for my current job, I was surprised but pleased that the combination of the class and lots years managing interns was considered enough “management experience” for the role.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes! I co-authored that book with The Management Center’s CEO, so it’s their book too! They are awesome.

            Also, if you take their training, as part of the post-training support they offer, you’ll be offered a management hotline call with me, and if you sign up for one, we can have phone time :)

      2. Brett*

        Does (non-workplace) leadership experience partly substitute for management experience when you are looking at applicants for management roles?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Same answer as above: If I’m hiring someone to manage one person, I’d consider that; for managing one person, I’m fine with hiring someone who seems like they have management potential and training/coaching them. But not for a position where they’re going to be managing a whole team; there it’s a much bigger part of the job, and I want to know they’ve already gone through the horrible first year or three of managing people and made the mistakes you make during that period, and learned from it.

          (Think of it this way: If you heard your new department head had never formally managed people, wouldn’t you be nervous?)

  67. Anie*

    Odd experience yesterday. I’ve certainly always been aware that what you put on the internet is public. Because of this, I have high privacy settings on my FB and Instagram, and am mindful on Twitter.

    I was speaking with a co-worker about a work SEO issue and the topic of Googling came up. Quite casually he mentioned my blog, which he found when googling me. When I attempted to clarify, because I most certainly don’t have identifiers on my personal blog as it covers topics I don’t wish to share in the work world, I discovered he did, in fact, mean my personal blog.

    My jaw dropped. I was completely caught off guard.

    Because he mentioned the key words he used when googling me, I was able to back track the link trail that led from my name to my blog. I’d linked to it on a site I haven’t looked at in 3 years. It’s a very strong lesson to me that if people are curious enough, they can find out anything. While I see examples of that everywhere all the time, it’s never popped up for me personally.

    While I’m uncomfortable with this co-worker knowing personal details of my family and thought process, I’m also grateful that the content itself isn’t something that could affect me negatively in the work place. But it so easily could have been. What if I had complained about my boss, or my pay, or HIM?

    Always be mindful. Seriously. Also, does everybody normally google co-workers and actually go down the rabbit-hole of link threads?

    1. Bend & Snap*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. You must feel violated.

      Were you able to correct the SEO issue?

      I do not Google coworkers unless I need to know something specific and they’re not available, and I certainly wouldn’t delve into personal links.

        1. Kassy*

          I doubt they mean “violated” as in “someone committed an infraction.” It’s more that this personal info that this person jumped through hoops to cover up turned out to be relatively easily accessible and known to her coworker.

          1. Anie*

            Yeah, it’s weird like that. I had an internal struggle because I did feel…exposed, but at the same time was able to acknowledge that it was publicly view-able information. I simply didn’t intend for it to be view-able to him.

    2. fposte*

      I assume they will, but then I work in research and librarianship, where this is a hobby that rivals Netflix.

      1. AnonForThis*

        Yes. I filled out an application the other day that asked about my skills in internet research.
        “Borderline professional.”

        I write profiles at work as one of my many duties though, so it’s sometimes a product of being assigned one person, looking them up, then the next thing I know I’m reading their thesis (I work in an environment with lots of PhDs and Masters degrees) and looking up the restaurant their parents own back in Kalamazoo…

        I personally try to curate my social media. So I assume people will see everything, even if it’s not work-related, and make sure it is an accurate depiction of me as a whole person. Then, if they don’t like what they see, we probably weren’t compatible anyway.

      3. The Cosmic Avenger*

        That’s a great way to put it. This is why I sometimes Google people, because I’m constantly tracking down non-personal answers for work and for personal use (like installation manuals or procedures), and I’ve learned how to become much more effective at finding information, as we discussed in that “share your talents” thread. Plus I am interested in public records available online, as I have had to do some legal research and find property records before.

    3. Nobody*

      I google coworkers on occasion — often when someone new starts and I want to see what I can find out about the person. I might dig fairly deep into links if I can’t find anything easily, but in any case, I wouldn’t mention it to the person because I don’t want to sound like a stalker.

      Several years ago, one of my coworkers told me he found my Live Journal. He complimented my writing and said, “Don’t worry, I didn’t see anything that would make anyone want to stab you or anything.” He also mentioned the search terms he was using (which had nothing to do with me — they were related to some current events in our industry that I mentioned in my Live Journal), but even then, I couldn’t figure out the link trail. I didn’t even use my real name on my Live Journal. Fortunately, I made anything work-related viewable by friends only (good thing, because I had actually complained about this guy in some friends only posts!). It kind of freaked me out, though, and I went back and made a bunch of personal posts private/friends only, too.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t; I have absolutely no reason to, unless I were dating one of them. But then it would just be googling a date, not because they were a coworker. As for my blog, I shared it with coworkers when I went to the UK last year, so quite a few of them (including my boss) have seen it. On my sadly neglected admin blog, I don’t complain about work.

  68. lowercase holly*

    interview clothing question: would a midnight or navy blue suit with a black blouse be too weird? not for too conservative of a position, but not a party workplace either (library/archives). also the interview will by in NYC so a little chilly and lots of walking. knee boots ok? or i was thinking to wear those my way there and switch to heels right before. thanks!

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      My primary worry would be that it might look like you THINK both pieces are the same, unless it’s a really bright navy/closer to cobalt and the difference is clear under multiple lighting situations, particularly fluorescent which is really unkind to colors in general.

      I’d say boots are fine.

    4. Borders Refugee*

      I’d add a scarf in a color (one of my, uh…. 7…. red scarves would be my call on this) (I might have a scarf problem), and just stick with the boots and don’t worry about the heels. Then you don’t have to worry about what you’ll do with the boots during the actual interview.

  69. A. Thrope*

    I just need to vent… I’m burnt out in my job. I suppose you could say I’m underemployed, but I don’t know how true that is, given that I’ve been job searching for a long time. Moving up within my role seems unlikely. There’s a “career path” in place but how you move up is dubious. It’s basically based on how the Senior members of the team feel about your work. And since I don’t work them on a regular basis, I have no idea how they can make that determination. Plus the only people on the team who’ve moved up to just above me and just below the Seniors, are on one managers team and seem to be his buddies. Maybe that’s not the case, but perception is everything, right? Further, I’ve applied internally to over a dozen jobs in the last 15 months and have only gotten 2 interviews, both of which rejected me. So I feel very much like my company is just hoping I’ll move along on my own eventually.

    1. NacSacJack*

      Right there with you. Not burnt out, but bored. Just found out my boss can’t make the decision, it’s my grand-boss and great-grandboss that do and they dont see the work I do.

  70. Jotojo*

    Okay so I interviewed for a job at this nonprofit organization last year. I made it to the interview stage, but didn’t get the job. In the feedback that I received, the hiring manager stated that I was a strong candidate and in her own words: “I would love to keep in touch and help in any way in your journey in [teapots] management.” Now it’s one year later, I applied for another job at the same organization in another department with a completely different hiring manager. I have an interview scheduled on Monday. Should I mention to them that I interviewed with another hiring manager before. She I reach out to the first hiring manager and let her know that I was selected to come in for an interview? I mean, after all she did say to “keep in touch.” But what would I even say?

  71. Ann Ohnemus*

    A couple weeks ago, I posted about my manager scheduling a biweekly meeting from 8-9 when I don’t start until 9, for health-related (chronic autoimmune illness) reasons. I talked to him, and the meeting time can’t change due to employees overseas and their time zone issues. He did say he would prefer to have me in the office for those meetings, but is okay with me calling in remotely if I need to.

    However, since then, HIS boss has put a recurring biweekly meeting on my calendar for the opposite Thursdays, also before 9:00… And that one doesn’t have a call-in option, it’s in-person only. *headdesk* So now this is a weekly issue, instead of biweekly, and I have no idea what to do next. Talk to the boss and grand-boss again? Grand-boss specifically approved my 9-5:30 schedule when I was moved into this team. Go to HR for an accommodation? That feels a bit like a nuclear option, so I’m hesitant to go there unless I have to.

    I went to the grand-boss’s early meeting this week. I made it on time, barely, but was feeling very stressed and generally gross the whole morning. The rest of the day was rough too, as a result. Does it make any difference that these meetings so far have been entirely about sharing FYI/administrative messages that, IMHO, could just as easily have been shared via group email, intranet site posting, fliers tacked to cubicle walls, etc.?

    I really hate meetings unless the group needs to collaborate or make a combined decision, so that could be coloring my views here, but I’m starting to feel very cranky about this whole thing. I do not want to change my schedule one day per week, and I’m not sure how to handle the long-term physical challenges if I should have to do so anyway. Am I being unreasonable?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think you’re being unreasonable. But I also think you’re getting cranky in advance of taking action, and that’s a bad order to do things in.

      People really aren’t going to remember that you’ve arranged this accommodation, and I wouldn’t take it personally that they forget. So yeah, I’d talk to boss and grand-boss and say “I did attend this first meeting but I would really like to preserve the accommodation we’ve agreed to about my start times. Is there a way I can contribute to this group outside of the meetings?”

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d assume your grand-boss just doesn’t remember the schedule he approved for you; it’s normal not to remember that kind of thing. I’d start with that assumption, remind him, and see it that fixes it; there’s a pretty good chance that it will, especially if you remind him it’s for a medical reason.

      1. Ann Ohnemus*

        Thanks, all! (Is it weird that I’m excited to get a response from Alison? Yay!) I’m remote today, so I just sent a quick message to grand-boss asking if there’s any flexibility on the meeting time given my 9:00 schedule, with a brief mention that it was for health reasons. He does know about my health situation, so hopefully there will be an easy resolution.

        Fposte–I think you’re right about getting grumpy in advance of trying to resolve, at least in my message above. I don’t believe I’ve let any annoyance show in the office, yikes! This is my first time navigating an unceremonious reorg into a new department, and between wondering if I’m really a match with the new team culture, schedule weirdness, and missing the small and close-knit team I used to be a part of, I’ve been struggling not to get into a funk. I think there will be some good opportunities here if I can just get through the adjustment period, though.

    3. Bend & Snap*

      tactical advice is to block your calendar every day; it may help. I have a strict schedule due to daycare and I block my calendar before 9 and after 5 every day to prevent people sticking meetings on there. It doesn’t always work but it has helped a lot.

      2. Ann Ohnemus*

        I’ll have to give that a shot. I have my regular working hours set in Outlook so it automatically grays out times I’m not normally in the office, but it seems that may not be quite enough.

  72. Golden Yeti*

    Anyone have experience in upgrading skills to be seriously considered in a new field? How much did you have to do?

    Asking because I’m kind of caught in the middle at the moment–my WordPress skills are *slightly* higher than the average Joe, but not nearly enough to be taken seriously at it. I don’t even know code. (I was thrilled when I finally got into ftp!)

    The tech field is intriguing to me, but I know as things are I would never be considered for a tech position. I’ve had a few companies say things like, get X under your belt and get back to us, or take Y to the next level and then get back to us. I did one section of Codecademy, but I haven’t been back since. And honestly, I’m not sure how much I would absorb just doing it alone; at the same time, I can’t afford to go back to school. I was reading an article about how to break into WP development (just because it’s what I’m doing currently), and it said you pretty much have to try to be the best to get noticed, and that involves hours of daily reading, etc.–it’s not something to do half assed. That sounded pretty intimidating. And, as a friend pointed out, it’s always changing, so even if I could pay to go to school, my knowledge would become obsolete. Even moreso as grade school kids today are learning code.

    So I thought I would pose the question here. It doesn’t have to be tech-related, but I’d love to hear about how you expanded your horizons, how much you had to expand them, and how you broke into a new field.

  73. University Girl*

    I just had my yearly review and my supervisor had great things to say. Actually, only a small amount of our meeting was about me while we devoted the rest of the time to a co-worker who we’re both having some issues with. She gave me what amounts to an “Exceeds Expectations” on our silly forms, but everyone gets the same raise no matter what category you fall into. Do the higher ups not realize that this doesn’t help with morale? And it actually contributes the terrible culture here?

    1. fposte*

      If, as your name hints, you’re at a university, that’s pretty industry standard, though. However, it’s a reason why many people prefer private sector, and if you’re in a private sector job that does this, I can understand you being frustrated.

    2. pieces of flair*

      Yes, I’m also at a university and everyone gets the same cost of living raise regardless of performance. To get a larger raise, you have to officially revise your job description to show there’s been a substantial change to your role.

      1. Kassy*

        If it is a COLA, it is always going to be standard across the board. I work at a state agency and we don’t even have a system for merit-based raises – you want to get paid more, you move up. (And even then it doesn’t always work because you often promote to a lower “step” than the one you were on before.) I think it’s ridiculous and it really doesn’t motivate people to do well, but it’s what’s in place.

  74. TheLazyB (UK)*

    My DH just got a new job! He was miserable in work but hadn’t quite got round to looking. Then an old colleague from a previous job (they’ve both left where they were) got in touch to say ‘are you interested in this, I think it’d be right up your street’, He sent over his CV, two interviews and he’s been offered and accepted a job that better fits his skills and is a much higher salary :)

    Also I think someone on my team is pregnant. I clearly can’t gossip about it so I just need to tell you guys instead hehe.

  75. lurker1120*

    Hi all — I’m probably jinxing myself by asking this question, but I’m anticipating a job offer on Monday. So, putting in my two weeks overlaps Thanksgiving. How does this normally work? Would I put in ten business days and start at the new job mid-week? Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      Or give them a little more than two weeks, even, if you can. But don’t short the old job–the holiday doesn’t mean they can deal with the transition any quicker.

      1. lurker1120*

        This is me being a little paranoid here — but the new job (which seems to be with reasonable people! that I don’t have yet!) shouldn’t have an issue with me giving three week’s notice (which would technically be 13 business days)…right?

  76. SaraV*

    So a job opening has come-up at my husband’s place of work. It’s a job that I’ve done before in a different place. I interviewed a little over a year ago for the same opening at husband’s employment, but they selected someone with more recent experience. Cool. I understand.

    So here’s the same opening. I pondered applying again, but my husband heard that the other person that does this job…who would have a heavy say in who’s hired…wouldn’t hire me because I have TOO much experience. Wha?! It isn’t a money thing…it’s that he wants to be able to bring in someone with no experience so that they’re taught HIS way of doing things. God forbid I might come in with am idea or be able to streamline a process.

    And while the actual job could be looked at as entry-level data entry, the soft skills needed for this job are pretty high. This department, usually of only two or three employees, is the go-between of two other departments. The job is basically to make sure they don’t kill each other. You’re going to have to find someone fairly “strong” if they’re coming into this field fresh.

    I swear, this whole town is bass ackwards.

  77. November*

    I’ve been waiting for this all week, and am hoping for some suggestions from all you awesome folks.

    I work for a small company (less than 50 employees). I was originally hired as the Customer Service Manager, but over the years I’ve been here, my job duties have evolved to the point where they don’t really match my title at all. That is kind of the deal with all of us here (as is common at small businesses, we all do a bit of everything), but the owner has finally agreed that I should have a title more in tune with what I do (yay!). However, he is at a loss at what it should actually be, and told me to feel free to come up with some suggestions.

    What we do: buy and sell new and used Chocolate, Vanilla and Cinnamon Teapots, both wholesale and retail (retail is mostly online but we do have a brick and mortar).

    What I do: I do still oversee our couple of CSRs and do some customer service myself, but I do a lot more on the bookkeeping/auditing end of things. For example, maintain a database of returns and refunds and any CS issues, and run monthly and yearly reports analyzing them for patterns, common issues, etc — and identify any process changes we need to make to avoid issues going forward (I can recommend changes on both the customer service/order processing end, and on our product acquisition/inventory end). I also do a number of non-CS related bookkeeping tasks. I use Access, Excel, Quickbooks and our in-house database software on a regular basis. I also do inventory audits: I coordinate our big yearly inventory-taking, but I am also basically checking on stuff in inventory all the time. Say, a White Chocolate Lid is missing from its designated inventory location — it’s my responsibility to figure out what happened and, again, I can recommend changes to processes as needed. I’ve now also taken on duties in our wholesale department, and have input into what kind of teapots we order, from where, for how much, and whether we wholesale them or retail them — this is on both a large-scale and small-scale basis. For example, if in the course of analyzing returns, I identify a teapot that’s just not working out for our online customers, I can decide to sell the entire stock of it off to another company, or try to sell it piece-meal to other companies, or try to put it in the brick and mortar, because maybe customers just need to see it in person to love it.

    So, commentariat — what am I? Another coworker suggested Project Manager, but it doesn’t feel right to me at all.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Hmm… something with analyst in the title? But it seems like you’re analyzing a big variety of things so I don’t have any ideas on how to narrow that down..

      1. November*

        Analyst of some sort does make sense, thank you. The owner is kind of reluctant to take “Manager” away from me, because I guess it seems like a downgrade (this is why Project Manager was one of the suggestions), but I’ll definitely mull this over some more.

        1. Dawn*

          FWIW “Customer Service Manager” doesn’t carry *any* weight with the “Manager” moniker because it’s almost always read as “Tech Support Monkey.” Sounds crappy, but them’s the breaks.

          1. November*

            Ooh, good call.
            Although, honestly, I can completely add “Tech Support Monkey” to my list of daily stuff, because I do quite a bit of that as well. We have dedicated IT staff, but I am frequently the “November, my computer is broken, please help me” specialist and/or LMGTFY queen if they are swamped.

      1. Random citizen*

        Or maybe Logistics Analyst, if you wanted to go the analyst route… not sure if logistics is the right descriptor for what you’re doing, though.

        1. November*

          Does “researched different shipping companies and convinced owner to switch to a new one, because frankly, DHL is the worst ” count enough for logistics?

          I think one of my problems is that I really do too many things. For example, sometimes I do payroll. Sometimes I reconcile accounts/checks on our purchasing side. I guess what I really need to figure out is what I want to do next, and focus on anything pertaining to that, but that’s easier said than done.

          1. Random citizen*

            Yeah, I’d say that definitely counts as logistics, but you’re right – that title would leave out a lot of your job. Logistics, Payroll, & Account Analyst/Manager?

            1. November*

              Would lumping all that together make me sound — how to put it — like I’m over-inflating my importance? Especially given that I work for a small business and not a big name company?

              1. CrazyCatLady*

                I totally get where you’re coming from. I do procurement, sourcing, logistics, planning, constant analyses of just about everything, AP/AR, collections, process improvements company-wide… so it’s hard to find a title that encompasses at least MOST of what I do. They settled on Supply Chain Specialist… but it doesn’t sound like that really fits for your.

                1. November*

                  Haha, yeah, that’s how it feels. There is an Eastern European fairy tale trope basically translating to “go there, I don’t know where; fetch that, I don’t know what”– I was talking about my job to a friend, and that’s what I told her it was like most of the time.

                  How big(ish) is the place you work for, if you don’t mind me asking?

              2. AnotherAlison*

                I wouldn’t lump it together. I suppose another small business could use someone with the same variety of skills and experience, but I think there’s a greater abundance of job listings for, say, an Account Manager with some other misc. duties than for a Logistics and Account Analyst. I’d either pick the one that’s the greatest percent of your job or the one that’s in the career direction you would prefer long term.

                1. November*

                  One of my other concerns is sort of lining this up cohesively with my education. My original degree was fun, but generally useless. I substitute taught for a while, and worked as special education classroom aide; I usually end up leaving all this stuff off my resume. I’ve been at my current job for 5+ years, since getting a B.S. is in accounting (without an advanced degree or sitting the CPA, that one is probably not too useful, either).

                2. AnotherAlison*

                  @Nov – I wouldn’t say your BS accounting degree is useless. I work for a 1,000+ person division of a privately held $10B company. I’m not sure the controller is even a CPA, and the accountants under him are not. I don’t think it’s as big of a deal in private companies, but I’m sure that depends on the company’s management’s opinions. As long as you have the experience in the field. . .

      1. November*

        Yeah, I think I am definitely leaning towards Operations something (analyst? maven? ninja?), thank you!

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Just chiming into agree with you that project manager doesn’t seem to fit. Everyone has projects within their job, but unless you have a schedule and budget specific to that project, it’s not really project management to the rest of the world.

      Quality Analyst? Quality Assurance Manager? Operations Analyst?

      1. November*

        Right, that’s what I thought. Generally, projects have a set end/start period, and a specific product/result/output or whatever at the end (whether any of that shifts around in the process or not).

        I’ll definitely put these on the list, thank you!

  78. Sequins*

    Long-time reader, seldom commenter here.

    Has anyone had a meteoric rise in their career? What were the pros and cons?

    I went from being an underpaid intern to an executive making six figures in less than four years (not at the same company, however). Pros: I now have an amazing job that traditionally requires 10-15 years of toiling away. Cons: I constantly, even two years in the role, suffer from impostor syndrome. And I always want more and constantly think of the next Best Thing for my career.

    2. Emmie*

      It’s good that you want more. I’d focus on making big accomplishments at your current job, so you can secure another advancement or make a lateral move to a different company / industry. Seeing a meteoric career progression on a resume in a short time frame would make me wonder if you were titled appropriately with the necessary experience. You can overcome that with accomplishments and a bit of position longevity.

    3. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      I can sort of relate. I went from a teapot intern a couple years ago to being an attorney as well as senior teapot employee.

      Pros–more pay (somewhat), get to determine own schedule to envy of everyone
      Cons–imposter syndrome, getting residually stressed out (I tend to get stressed out very easily, ie. I get worried if my workload’s too low, or frantic if it gets too high), and 80% telecommuting means I have a ridiculous FOMO (fear of missing out) if someone shows up to the office to pick up pens and I’m not there.

      Tl;dr: pros–flex-schedule/pay, cons–imposter everything

    4. AnonAcademic*

      I’m in academia so I can’t really skip rungs on the career ladder the way you did, but I did move from doing my doctorate at a top 50 public university to working at the #1 university internationally for my field for my postdoc. I have access to resources most people would only dream of and am surrounded by a lot of very smart (and famous) academics. It’s the first time I’ve had genuine impostor syndrome. I take it as a sign that I have finally found an environment that challenges me properly – everywhere else, I’ve felt like I could slack off and still be considered a superstar. Now I’m grappling with needing to work much harder to be a superstar, or working a little bit harder and being a high performer but not necessarily an overachiever. It’s very weird to give up overachiever status when that has been my professional identity for 10+ years, but it seems like the only way to achieve work life balance.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        “It’s the first time I’ve had genuine impostor syndrome. I take it as a sign that I have finally found an environment that challenges me properly – everywhere else, I’ve felt like I could slack off and still be considered a superstar.”

        I really like the way you framed this.

    6. Weekday Warrior*

      Imposter syndrome goes away once you’ve been at the game long enough to have and survive some failures. And you notice that all very successful people have also made bad decisions, lost a big account, lost a grant, had research hit a dead end, made a bad hire, etc., etc. It’s how you pick yourself, learn, and go on. Ego bruised, sure. Mortally wounded, nah.

  79. TheLazyB (UK)*

    Oh and there’s a chance of applying for a mentoring scheme in work in the next 3-4 months. Pros/cons? I feel like I’m unlikely to ever move up from where I am without some kind of input/guidance from someone.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Grab the opportunity. Let’s say everything goes wrong- the mentor is lousy, the program is lousy you still will have telegraphed to your company that you are interested in moving upward, by the sheer fact you signed up. I say go for it.

  80. Weird Interview Requirements*

    So, I had it happen. I was being interviewed for a job that sounded ideal. I made it through the phone screen and an initial in-person interview. They then asked me to fill out an application. On the application, it asked for your salary history for your past 5 jobs and for the direct contact information of your current supervisor. I left those parts blank. After I sent it in, I got a phone call saying they couldn’t proceed without that information. I did the normal – talk about what the position should make based off of my understanding of the job. They generally accepted that, but here’s the kicker – they won’t even consider making an offer until after they’ve spoken to my current supervisor. I told them that was a deal breaker as my current supervisor does not know I’m looking and that I would need to remove myself from consideration. They seemed shocked that it would be a problem and said that they’d never done otherwise. I thanked them for their time and ended the call. I just can’t imagine that lots of candidates are just peachy with their current supervisor being called before an offer is even on the table.

    1. Adam V*

      Completely agreed. If you get to the point where they’re thinking “we’d love to hire her, but we want to talk to her current boss first”, then they should skip that step and make sure the offer is one you can agree on first – it would be horrible to alert your current boss that you’re job-searching, only to find out that their offer has horrible benefits or the salary is way too low, so you part ways with the new job and you’re on thin ice at the old job.

    2. Ms. Anne Thrope*

      I had an app that wanted past salary history too. I don’t get it–what’s the point? It’s both wildly not their business what I made in 1999, but also irrelevant. Furthermore, of course, I have no idea and I’m not about to go digging thru old tax returns (if I even have them) to find out.

      So stupid.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I was surprised to learn that a certain HR department *requires* that the hiring manager speaks with at least one supervisor (it could be a previous one) while checking references. But the hiring manager was apologetic, and asked about previous supervisors. It sucks, but at least for me it’s workable.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        That’s actually pretty smart (as long as they’re not requiring it be a current manager or someone at your current job). Managers often have a different perspective on someone’s work, and their job was specifically to think about and assess your work. I would never hire without talking to past managers!

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Yeah, it seems like a good idea in theory and all, but I would expect them to ask for it up front, as it was I was a little surprised by that requirement. (Then again, I never formally applied for this position, they contacted me.)

  81. Uni Admin*

    I don’t know if this is a problem or not. I work at a university and every position has a specific range. When I was hired (going from temp to perm), I decided to try negotiating my salary. HR told me they’d discuss it with my manager and they did, but ultimately there was no wiggle room. I accepted anyway. Later, my manager came to see me and said that she had already pushed for me to be bumped up 1 step, and that because of my (lack of) experience there was no more movement. I told her I was fine with that and had just tried to negotiate because everyone told me to, and she said she just didn’t want me to be dissatisfied with my wage.

    I thought that was fine, but since then she has made two or three comments about how I’m a working girl now. Usually when I say something about how expensive an item of clothing is, or whatever. And maybe I’m overthinking it all, but I’m wondering if maybe my manager still thinks I’m unhappy with my wage. If so, is there some kind of casual hint I can drop so that she’ll know it’s fine? I mean, I would like to be higher obviously (after taxes, benefits, pension, etc… I am making about $300 less now than I did before, even having gone up a step) but I can live on what I’m making. And I don’t want this to spiral into an Issue down the line.

    Also, where I am, raises and cost of living adjustments are automatic and happen once a year after a review. I think it’s something like 4%; this is non-negotiable.

    1. Trixie*

      I wouldn’t stress over it but if you’re really concerned maybe bring it up at next one on one.

      How long were you a temp before applying as perm, or was that job trajectory from the start? I’m wondering if this is best way to apply if you have no prior academic admin exp.

      1. Uni Admin*

        At least at my university, it’s pretty rare to get hired unless you’re a temp first. To just be hired from the outside, you have to have a pretty impressive resume and it’s usually a contract position funded externally (as opposed to what I am, which is unionized/paid for internally). I had neither of those things, so I got myself on the temp list – I had no academic admin exp, but I did have three years of temp government admin exp. I was in my position at the university for about 6 months before I was hired permanently, and my manager had to jump through some hoops to do it.

        And it was kind of the job trajectory? It was made very, very clear to me that the job was temporary but would be filled permanently eventually, and that while I was more than welcome to apply, it was by no stretch a guarantee.

        IME, it probably depends on the university’s guidelines re: hiring. But being a temp definitely gives the office a reason to fight to hire you, which they may not do if you’re just someone off the street and HR says “well we’d really like you to hire someone who is already internal”. However, I was lucky (finally) in that my first temp position at the university resulted in full time work… some people went through longer periods before getting their chance.

    2. Grad Student*

      It sounds like you are unhappy with your wage, which is totally reasonable in the aftermath of not getting the salary you wanted. I totally get that. But I don’t think reassuring your manager that you are happy about your wage when you are only fine with it is necessarily the best approach because you don’t want to come across as disingenuous. What struck me here is that you mentioned to your manager how expensive something was. What other comments about costs/expenses are you making to your manager? While those kinds of comments may be fine with a colleague, they don’t seem like the kind of thing to discuss with your boss.

      1. Uni Admin*

        I didn’t mention it to her. It’s usually when I’m talking to another coworker and she overhears our conversation – and it could be as simple as us discussing a store that’s having a sale, and me commenting “Oh store X is expensive”. Which is true, because they are, and if you talk to someone about store X that’s pretty much the first thing they’ll say. I didn’t mean to make it sound like I’m commenting at length about costs/expenses to anyone in my office, but especially my manager!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t get it about the working girl comments. If it were me, I would ask her about them. “Gee, I have heard you reference ‘working girl’ a couple of times now, I was wondering what is up with that?”

      It sounds to me like she thinks this is your first job or something. It just does not make sense to me.

  82. Anonymouse*

    Okay, what would you do in my situation?

    The company I work for has recently implemented a new IT solution to make sure that everyone who needs to access the automated reports can only access the reports they need to do their job. Previously they had a system in place that was awkward and didn’t always work. I completely agree with the change – it is a very good idea, especially as these reports involve sensitive customer data that not everyone needs to see.

    However, I recently found out that I have Department level access, not Team level access, which means that I’ve basically got access to every report generated for my department (around 85) instead of the 7 I am supposed to be able to see.

    I would report this and get my access revoked, if it wasn’t for my manager. I’m given tasks where I have to manipulate and analyse the data in reports I supposedly can’t access that are outside the scope of my team’s purview. He prints them off, and makes me type in all the data (this has taken 3 days of solid work before) before I can work on it. He point-blank refuses to ask for access for me, because apparently I don’t need it while I am a member of my team. Having these reports saves my sanity and days of work. It has also allowed my to highlight several severe compliance issues, although I had to be pretty roundabout and pretend I was pondering the hypothetical.

    As far as the sensitive customer data goes, absolutely none of it is data that I do not encounter in my daily work, so data security is not an issue either.

    Should I report my access, especially as there will be no negative consequences to not telling them?

    1. videogame Princess*

      Is it possible someone knows what was going on and made a “mistake?” That being said, I really don’t know. The temptation for me would be to leave it alone.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      I would leave it alone too, unless you’re seeing payroll or other confidential employee information.

    3. pieces of flair*

      I wouldn’t report it. If it comes out at some point, you can plausibly argue that you thought you were supposed to have access since you need to analyze data from those reports.

      1. Sadsack*

        But that would isn’t plausible since her manager has told her he doesn’t want her to have access and she knows it.

        2. videogame Princess*

          Maybe she can pretend she didn’t know? That’s what she’s doing now, so it would be plausible in the future as well.

    4. Sadsack*

      You might consider if there would be bad consequences if it was discovered that you have been accessing reports that you shouldn’t have, even if it isn’t your fault that you have access.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      God no, do NOT give up your access! You’re using it appropriately and for a solid business reason just keep doing what you’re doing and it should be fine.

    6. Noah*

      I would leave it alone. If having access is helping you complete your work in a more effective manner I would blissfully assume you are supposed to have access.

    7. Observer*

      Don’t say anything. BUT – it you have copies of the reports your boss has printed out for you, KEEP THEM. Also, if he stopped giving them to you, make a note of the date he stopped giving them to you. Also, keep copies of the reports you are generating.

      This makes it possible for you to deal with the possible fall out if someone discovers the access issue and wants to hit you with the problem. Of course, this depends on your workplace. If it’s a somewhat reasonable place, being able to prove that you were not seeing anything you didn’t see anyway would solve the issue. But, if you are dealing with crazytown, that’s a different issue.

  83. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I’m a few weeks into Senior Teapot role. It’s 80% telecommuting, regular communication is happening etc, I’ve never had this much autonomy over my schedule. It’s great.

    But, apart from 2 weeks ago in which I heavily edited a couple documents, I’ve barely had anything to do since. I noticed that I oversee the documents of others on my team and they submit stuff/are most communicative Friday at noon/after b/c that’s when they update me.

    Is this normal? I feel weird because it gives me nothing to do mid-week. I end up researching given materials on my own and assessing trends for additional write-ups into the future. I am concerned it’ll turn from slow/relaxed pace to **suddenwinterpanicpace* all of a sudden. Besides overseeing edits, I do a weekly report Thursdays.

    Anyone else have this experience/advice? It’s nice so far, but I’m not used to the pace, quite yet lol.

    1. Rat Racer*

      It’s been my experience that new jobs often start slow and can take a while to pick up. I remember feeling that way at my current job when I started 3 years ago (are they going to fire me? I’m not adding any value…) There may come a time when you pine for these days when you were actively looking for ways to keep busy.

    2. Silver Radicand*

      Have you considered talking with your manager about it? She would be the one who should know what a regular workload should look like for you and whether you and your team are completing things at an expected pace.

  84. Trixie*

    Successful interview (3-minute audition) with another big box gym for fitness instructor. This was directly result from call out placed in local FB instructor group page. Pay is twice my other place, plus as a national franchise I see potential for employment in other locations when I move. Applying as a former employee sounds easier than from scratch.

    Still noodling around with personal training certification. Not sure if its something you can grow on the side. From what I’ve read, many pay their dues and learn the ropes with a lot of hours at first.

  85. Serin*

    Any suggestions for things I could do for a brother who’s looking for a job?

    We’re not super-close, unfortunately, though I think we’d both like to be closer. We’re in somewhat similar fields but very far apart geographically.

    I suggested that he join LinkedIn and connected with him when he did, and I told him I’d be happy to introduce him to anybody he wanted me to.

    Anything else I could do to help?

    1. videogame Princess*

      When recruiters call you about particular positions, maybe tell them about your brother? I do this for a friend who wants to get into IT, while being honest about where she stands and what she’s currently doing.

      1. Serin*

        I have never in my life been contacted by a recruiter! It makes me feel a little inadequate. (It’s a good idea, though, should I get so lucky.)

        1. ElCee*

          I haven’t either! I tell myself that it’s my field. Ha!
          One of the most helpful things I did for my SIL, breaking into the workforce, was point her here. Also I’ve proofread her CL and resume.
          But I do think that just being available for quick questions is invaluable. I know I have had moments in the middle of a job app when I have just been like “Shoot! What do?” and would have loved a wise older sibling to call up and ask :)

  86. LOtheAdmin*

    Happy Friday!

    I wrote in the open thread about a week and a half ago needing advice about some added responsibilities that I got.
    Well, it’s going swimmingly so far. I created a (thick!) new hire packet full of information about the company I work for, the family that owns it, and all the basic information a new hire should get, but hasn’t at this point.

    ALL of my bosses, including one who doesn’t give out praise so easily, absolutely love what I created. The boss who does not give praise actually smiled at me and gave me a thumbs up, which practically the same as kissing my feet.

    Most of my inspiration came from this board, so it’s only fair that I thank those who gave me such solid advice on what to do. I was really freaked out about this, but I’m capable of much more than I thought I was. Thank you so much AAM readers for all your help!

    If you need me, I’ll be on cloud 9.

  87. videogame Princess*

    This isn’t an issue per se, but I am incredibly embarrassed after I posted a question on a company feed that our contractor usually looks at. I was asking if a particular function existed in a database. My boss chastised me a little, and said I should ask her about those things first because our contractor tends to see inquires as requests, and she had access to the database and could see the function was not there. She ended up deleting the comment from the feed. I am feeling a little embarrassed because I realize that I could have looked for it myself, and I didn’t, so I immediately apologized and told her I would improve in solving problems independently. This has been an issue in the past, but she immediately said that I was getting better and not to worry. But still, I am so embarrassed. I have to talk with her at 1, and my head is spinning unnecessarily. What if she wants me to increase the speed at which I do work? what if she doesn’t like the presentation that I’m supposed to put on in December? How do I stop from being so worried?

    1. Adam V*

      Take what she’s saying (“she immediately said that I was getting better and not to worry”) at face value, unless you have a reason not to.

      As far as stopping being worried… I had a bad ending to my last job, several years ago, but I still get unnecessarily freaked out whenever I hear my higher-up saying to my team lead, “hey, can we go to a room and talk?” I just assume they’re going to talk about something I’m doing badly, or too slow, or whatever, and they’re going to come back and pull me into a room, or just call me to the conference room, and tell me “we’re letting you go”. I don’t know how long the paranoia will stick, but I know it’s not useful, so I try my best to just ignore it.

      1. videogame Princess*

        Yeah, I had a tough time in grade school because of my ADHD (at one point my parent wrote a letter explaining why I couldn’t finish my homework the night before and essentially the teacher took me aside and screamed–no exaggeration–at me for 5-10 minutes in 5th grade) so I’m always expecting the worst to happen. I didn’t get diagnosed with it until 6th grade because apparently I was “too smart” and “too well-behaved” to really have it. Also, thanks to said ADHD I am about to fail a grad school course and it’s hard to really separate that from what’s going on at work. Fortunately I’ll be taking a break from grad school and doing cognitive behavioral therapy soon, and going back on meds. Hopefully I can get better with dealing with my apprehensions. Thanks for the encouragement, though.

    2. videogame Princess*

      It went well. She liked almost every aspect of the presentation aside from length, which is fine by me!

    3. Kassy*

      It doesn’t sound like your concerns (that she will ask you to work more quickly or that she won’t like your presentation) aren’t really relevant to the situation that happened. Do you have reason to think that these things will happen? If not, then I would just try to operate under the assumption that she’ll alert you if there are problems with your work, and otherwise you can just proceed.

        1. videogame Princess*

          No, I don’t at all, actually. That’s why it wasn’t really an issue. The real issue was just the less logical part of my brain yelling in panic something along the lines of “something less-than-great happened, now everything will be terrible!” But thanks for your help. That will probably help me in the future.

  88. Dynamic Beige*

    Yesterday’s thread on non-compete clauses was very interesting.

    Does anyone have any experience with them in a freelance capacity? I have signed contracts that have stated I may not contact my client’s clients for a period of X time or never or whatever. Mainly because I rarely have direct contact with anyone’s clients, (I speak with Person At Agency, who then speaks to Client and then relays back to me what was said/discussed/decided upon) I never really thought it was any big deal. But perhaps I am mistaken about that.

    1. Adam V*

      Yeah, just because you didn’t talk to them doesn’t excuse you from the clause.

      Essentially, they’re saying “you did work for [Client X] on our behalf; you’re not allowed to call them up and try to freelance directly for them and cut out the agency”. Any clients for whom you did specific work are definitely verboten; it’s possible they consider every client off-limits (though I wonder how they’d police that, if you didn’t know someone was their client).

      This is probably something to bring up when it’s time to cut ties – “I want to make sure I fulfill the rules of the non-compete; since it mentions that I can’t talk to any of your clients, can I get a list? I only know about the 4 clients I did direct work for, and I don’t want to accidentally contact a different client of yours unknowingly. Or does it only apply to clients I did specific work for?” (In fact, unless you only freelance for this one agency, it might be worth asking about now.)

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Well, I mean for the most part, I never even know the name of the client — they don’t say “Wakeen is very happy with the thing you did” it’s more like “Our client is thrilled with blah blah blah” I wouldn’t even know who to ask for if I had the balls to call up their head office which may not even be in this province.

        I have however wondered what the reverse of the situation is… I am working on building more of a web presence and it is possible that someone might find me — that’s not me directly soliciting business or maybe it is in some way? I guess I’m going to have to talk to a lawyer.

  89. The Overthinker*

    I’m thinking about getting an industrial piercing and overthinking it in terms of future potential employment etc. I currently have 3 lobe piercings in each ear. It won’t be a problem at my current workplace (my director has a tragus and daith piercing and a few people in my office have piercings other than ear lobes.). I am also not currently job searching. I’m not in a highly conservative industry (like banking etc).

    I suppose I can always take it out if it is one day going to be a problem. I also wonder if I would care to work somewhere that cares about it (for reasons other than health and safety which I could understand in some types of workplaces) since having a bar in my ear shouldn’t affect my ability to do a job… I mean I’d take it out if I NEEDED a job where it would be a problem but as I’m currently employed somewhere where it’s not, I guess I shouldn’t worry.

    I mentioned it to my mother (I’m 25 and don’t usually consult her on things like this but it came up) and she basically seemed under the impression that if I got it I’d never get another job again.

    I wonder what other people’s attitudes are to this type of piercing in a workplace (not counting where it wouldn’t be allowed due to health and safety reasons like, say, coaching a contact sport…)

    1. videogame Princess*

      I would stay away from anything that stretches the skin, at least in my current capacity. Yours might be different, but that would be my suggestion based on where I work (an IT-related field). If it doesn’t, you can always take it out and have it not be noticeable, but if it does, you might need to work on clever ways of covering it up.

    2. AnonAcademic*

      If you are going to be at your job for at least another 6-8 months, just get the piercing. It will be healed by the time you’d potentially be job searching, and at that point you could replace the bar with subtler jewelry (smaller individual bars, clear retainers, etc.) for interviews. I have something like 16 ear piercings and I just don’t wear jewelry in them at work. They are well healed enough that they will never close so I can always put jewelry back in if the mood strikes. Cartilage piercings are convenient like that.

    3. CollegeAdmin*

      I’ve talked about this here before – I have several piercings, including 2 sets of lobe piercings, a daith, a snug, and a 2-point helix spiral. I only had an issue at one workplace, but it was a holiday retail position in a quasi-stuffy store.

      When I first started getting piercings, my father had the same impression as your mother, but times have changed, I think. If you were in a very formal career – corporate law, for example – I might caution you. But I’ve worked for a medical supply company, a college administration office, and now college IT, with no issues. (I was also interviewed to be an admin at a real estate law firm and they didn’t say anything.)

    4. Lily Rowan*

      As a 40-something manager, I think anything in your ear other than stretched lobes is basically mainstream now. And lobes are probably 5 years out from being mainstream.

    5. Bekx*

      I doubt an industrial would cause any eyebrows being raised unless you’re in an incredibly conservative field. I’ve worked at my job for 2 years and just put back my helix hoop in. I had maybe….2 people comment on it the day I wore my hair up. And it was more of a “Oh! I never noticed you had that done!” comment.

      For context, I work in a male dominated industry that’s decently conservative.

    6. Noah*

      I have an industrial piercing. They take a long time to heal, so if you’re planning to get one I would make sure your’e planning to say for at least six months.

      I’ve never had any issues. My current boss’ boss joked about “the guy with ear bar” once or twice but that’s about it. I think it freaked everyone out more when I did the platinum blond-silver hair thing recently.

      My mom had a similar reaction when I got the piercing in college. I’ve never had any job care about it, even in the office where I wore a suit to work everyday.

    7. Student*

      Part of the problem with stuff like this is that the world is getting much, much more interconnected than ever before. You’re a lot more likely to encounter and work with people who have dramatically different norms now than just 10 years ago, and I expect it’ll become more widespread as time goes on, not less, for decades to come.

      For my role, we can’t hire people with controversial body art. It’s not because we care about it at our office. There are people with different roles at this office who do have body art of all sorts. It’s because there is a very good chance anyone we hire for my specific job will be working with colleagues in very far-flung places; not only more conservative regions of the US, but Japanese, Russians, various Europeans, Middle-easterners, and so on. We don’t have to cater to every whim of all of those cultures, but we do need to have people on-hand that they will take seriously. Body art that’s very obvious and very unusual is a great way to not get taken seriously by some of these cultures, because it’s taboo or it’s regarded as a mark of counter-culture youth or whatever they think.

      It’ll be a long, long time (maybe never) before interactions with the US liberalize these cultures enough that they start to regard body art with more tolerance. More and more jobs involve meaningful interaction with them as time goes on. What doors are you shutting, and are you sure they’re worthwhile for the body art you’re buying? It’s your life and your call – there’s no wrong answer – but I love my job and wouldn’t trade it for any piercing or tattoo in the world. At the same time, I know plenty of people who have tattoos or piercings they love and who wouldn’t ever want my kind of job.

  90. Sandy*

    It is the “season” for job interviews in my organization right now, and I am completely worn out.

    One interview last week, one written test last week, three interviews this week, one written test, and a second written test next week.

    I am THIS CLOSE to being like “I JUST DON’T CARE ANYMORE!!!”

  91. Brett*

    For some reason I am getting flooded with recruiters the last few weeks, and one really stood out for the awkwardness of everything.

    The recruiter was a third-party firm hired by a company in NYC that just closed a 9-figure series B funding round. Right off the bat they invited me to a senior-level recruiting event in NYC next month, and wanted to arrange a call with me in the next 24 hours to discuss that opportunity and opportunities with other companies. Even though they were not naming the company, I knew who it was and that they have a strict “must live in NYC” policy right now. So, I sent them the times I was available but mentioned that I could not move from my current metro area right now.

    And, that was it. No phone call, no more emails, nothing. I am sure that they say I could not move and just sent my email to the trash, but it sure seemed ridiculously rude to not even bother to reply to me to say that relocation was required. I will at least keep that in the back of my head if I ever have any interactions with that recruiting firm again.

  92. Ann Furthermore*

    This may qualify as personal, but it does involve a work friend, so I’m posting it here.

    A colleague and I used to work in the same department, and we were pretty close friends. We are now in different departments, and don’t see each other, or talk as often, nearly as much as we did before. There was no falling out — we just have different jobs, in different parts of the building, we’re both busy, etc. When we do see each other, we catch up, chit-chat, etc. A group of us, including some people who no longer work here, have lunch a few times year.

    A few weeks ago I had brunch with another friend who is also a former co-worker. She had lunch with my colleague recently, and she told my friend that her husband has been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor and has about a year left to live. I feel just terrible for her, her husband, and her family. I ran into her the other day, and I wanted to tell her how sorry I was to hear about her husband, but saying that I’d heard about it from someone else almost felt like I’d be passing along gossip. So I didn’t say anything.

    Looking for some input from the AAM hive-mind about how I should have handled this, and what, if anything, I should say to her next time I see her.

    1. Adam V*

      That’s tough. Part of me says the easiest way to get into it would be to ask something like “how’s the family?” in the course of your chit-chat, and see what she tells you about, and go from there… but I don’t know if that’s too direct.

      And I’m sorry to hear about your friend’s husband.

    2. fposte*

      “I heard Bill is ill. I’m so sorry.”

      In general, in sympathy situations it’s better to say something imperfect than nothing. If you’re wrong, hey, great news! I don’t think it’s gossip to share information about a friend going through something hard.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Yes, this. Your friend may not feel like sharing the news and rehashing/reliving it. I’d be upfront and say you heard, and you’re thinking of her and her family.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        This. She can figure out on her own how you heard and she will probably be okay with it.

        The word gossiping is like the word tattle-taling. Some people spray paint these words on everything they see without thinking about the circumstance. It’s important to look at the intent behind the words. Telling someone that a mutual friend’s husband is sick is not gossip, it’s showing care and concern for others by keeping us updated on something we would want to know.

  93. Anonsie*

    Ok, what’s with recruiters on LinkedIn? Really though.

    I mean, I know I’m really good at what I do, but I barely use LinkedIn so I have basically no connections and almost no information about my work history on there other than company and job title. It’s so sparse that the first time I got contacted by a recruiter (after my last promotion) I assumed it was something shifty. Now I probably get contacted by someone every week, every other week.

    I don’t really want to talk to any of these people and so far I’ve been ignoring them. But I do wonder, on the very rare occasions I log into LinkedIn and see months old messages from recruiters, if you’re actually supposed to talk to people? No joke though, I probably log in three times a year tops.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Recruiters on LinkedIn are used to being ignored; they are essentially cold-calling people. If you don’t want to talk to them, keep on ignoring them. If you do ever feel like you need a recruiter, you can reach out to someone who has contacted you in the past to see if there are any current opportunities.

  94. Anon369*

    Any ideas for what to do about extreme boredom at work when changing jobs would be really impractical for family reasons? I’m a middle manager with a great staff so my role is largely advisory. I do it well. My boss admits there aren’t many new challenges he can add. I am paid extremely well (and have family reasons that being paid well is very important – think medical/caregiving) and have a lot of flexibility (needed for same reasons). Been in same basic role for 8 years. I’m not able to travel more for work easily which would be next step. I’ve taken on a board seat outside of work for fulfillment and have a few hobbies. But it’s the work boredom that gets me. Any ideas? This has been going on a while.

    1. AnonAcademic*

      Can you do something like Coursera courses? Audiobooks? Something to keep your mind occupied during the down times.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      One place I tried bringing in all new projects for us. It did not work but it was something that cut into the boredom/repetition for a while.

  95. nonprofitprofessional*

    I had a phone interview this week and I got an email last night inviting me for an in-person interview!! I’m having a hard time deciding what to wear – here are two of my choices:

    1. Dark grey suit with a bright blue shell top, black heels
    2. Black slacks, white button-down, navy blazer, black heels

    It’s a nonprofit that seems pretty laidback, both in terms of culture and dress. Any advice/suggestions would be much appreciated! :)

    2. stk*

      The first one sounds better to me – you want to err on the side of too professional, really. Wearing a suit might sound like a lot, but doing that is going to seem more understandable than turning up under-dressed. It would probably be fine with either, but the suit sounds more likely to be right, and the blue top makes it sound like it does that while also being clearly not Super Uptight or whatever.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Agreed (and also agree with ACA’s point below). As someone who has worked at many nonprofits with laid-back dress codes, I still expected people to show up to interview in a suit.

    3. ACA*

      I’m not sure I’d pair the navy blazer with black slacks – unless they’re very obviously different (a “bright” navy), it might seem like you accidentally grabbed the wrong jacket.

    4. November*

      I’d go with option 1 — I’d rather look ‘too professional’ for an interview, if that makes sense. And you are adding some excitement/fun color in there via the bright shell top, if you’re concerned about fitting into the laid-back culture.

  96. Persephone Mulberry*

    Thanks again to everyone who weighed in several weeks ago on whether DH should take the new job with better pay, more stable (although routinely later) hours and a longer commute. He did take the job, he’s been there a little over 3 weeks and he LOVES it! And we’ve settled into a new home routine where the kids and I all grab a snack when we get home from school/work/activities and then we eat dinner a couple hours later, after DH gets home.

    And yeah, I’m loving the FAT paychecks. :D

  97. Prospective Math Major*

    I interviewed yesterday for a tutoring job at my community college’s math learning center. It went very well even though during the mock tutoring portion of the interview, I couldn’t remember how to change the base of a logarithm and took an inordinately long time trying to figure it out. The hiring manager was full of praise for my tutoring technique and by the end he was asking me some very “good sign” questions like when I could start. He said he’d get back to me tomorrow (that is, today). Should I send a thank-you / follow-up note? Are those a thing for entry level student jobs?

    1. videogame Princess*

      Yes, but make it an email so it gets there quicker, unless you drop it off in person. Largely, it’s just a nice thing to do. If you do end up working with them, it’s a good idea to start on the right foot.

  98. Dress Code*

    Does anyone have a good, gender-neutral dress code policy in place at work that they can share? My firm recently hired a new office manager, who, on his first day, mentioned that he wants a written dress code, and that in his old firm it was “more for the females than the males”. Ugh. I’d like to try slipping a good, genderless one to him before this becomes A Thing, but googling hasn’t turned up one I like yet.

    1. fposte*

      My suspicion is that the more gender-neutral it is, the less specific and therefore the less helpful it will be.

      1. Dress Code*

        I’m not sure how specific you’d have to be to be helpful. Saying “no clothing shorter than knee length” applies equally to the woman who wears the short skirt and the man who doesn’t change out of his bike shorts after his commute each day.

        1. fposte*

          Fair enough, and the same would be true of sleeve length and “inches below the collarbone” stuff.

          But ultimately I hate dress codes, so I like the idea of questioning what the hoped-for gain here is.

          1. Dress Code*

            Agreed, we’ve done just fine without one. Since he seems pretty determined to have one, though, I’m hoping to fend off a bunch of skirt-measuring nonsense (that generally tends to focus way too heavily on women’s bodies, rather than business attire).

            1. BSharp*

              I think Alison’s previously mentioned things like “Whether or not you are wearing underwear, that fact should be undetectible.”

    2. Anonsie*

      Are you in a position to tell the new office manager that there is no dress code and there ain’t gonna be a dress code so he can let that go right now? Because I would, personally, if given the opportunity.

      Those types of policies always aggravate me. Not that you should be allowed to come to work in dirty pajamas, but because it always seems like the only reason something like this is on the books is so that if someone does show up in dirty pajamas management can go “Oh Steve I’m sorry, look, I don’t care if you wear dirty pajamas, but it’s The Rules so I’m afraid we have to tell you not to do that. Sorry, not coming from me! It’s just The Rules!”

      I’ve known a lot of people who swear more people will show up in dirty pajamas if there’s no rule that they can’t, but I honestly don’t believe that. If someone thinks it’s ok to go to work in dirty pajamas in the first place, a statement about professional dress is not going to read to them as “don’t wear those jammies bruh”

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah — is there an actual need for a dress code in this particular context?

        And I’m giving some serious side eye to this new guy who already knew on his first day that he wanted to do this. Talk about not getting a sense of culture before diving in and doing something potentially contentious…

        1. Dress Code*

          Yeah, I was surprised that this was the battle he wanted to pick right off. I’m hoping that drafting something more in line with our office culture than what I suspect he has in mind will help guide him in the right direction without being directly confrontational in the first week.

          1. Anonsie*

            Is there some reason in particular why you don’t want to just tell him you don’t have a dress code and won’t be wanting one?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah, I’m wondering about this. If this guy is “office manager” in the sense of “head admin who manages the office logistics,” he shouldn’t have the authority to even do this. If he’s “office manager” in the sense of “he now manages all of us,” he has the authority … but that still doesn’t mean people can’t say, “hey, this isn’t really right for our office.”

              1. Dress Code*

                Hmmm… these are interesting questions. It’s a new position for the firm (law office without a lot of admin oversight of non-attorney positions), so I think it might be an question to raise at an organizational level. Thanks for all the input; it’s helped focus my thoughts on a topic that has been annoying and concerning to me.

                1. Observer*

                  I’m going to add a point here. If you do have to go with a dress code for some reason (not sure why, but who knows), please be explicit that it should NOT be “more for the females than the males”. You would think that this would be blindingly obvious in a law office, but this sounds like lawsuit city to me. Not that someone is necessarily going to sue over the dress code, but you can be sure that if someone wants to sue, they are going to use this as explicit proof of disparate treatment. Especially since he actually said it – no one needs to “infer” anything.

    3. Ruth (UK)*

      I think it can be more gender neutral by not mentioning specific genders even when talking about an item of clothing usually worn more often by one gender than the other. So, if skirts are allowed in your dress code, make sure it does not say skirts are allowed ‘for women’. It’s ok I think to say something like ‘skirts should be at least knee length’ if that length is what is appropriate in your workplace but I dislike when the wording implies an item of clothing is for only one gender. Same if talking about suits, ties, anything else. If one gender can wear it, there is no reason the other can’t. If it’s banned or required for one gender, it should also be for the other… The same for what areas of the body should be covered, etc.

      In short I dislike it when the wording on a policy like that implies that certain clothing items should only be for some people. Incidentally, I work in a place with no formal dress code and we’ve all defaulted to business casual. However, we do not deal with the public except occasionally over the phone…

      1. Sadsack*

        I agree with this…”No skirts above the knee, no sheer clothing, no sleeveless clothing, no Capri pants…”. Those are just suggestions of common rules. Whatever you make the rules, you can easily leave out reference to gender.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        I was happy to go look and find that our dress code is now gender-neutral. There’s simply a column of examples for appropriate (sweaters, skirts, slacks, collared shirts, blouses, loafers) and inappropriate (halter tops, tank tops, hats, slippers, work-out attire, etc), and a few sentences describing other hair/piercing/tattoo policies. It would be equally inappropriate for a male or female to wear a halter top to work, so why make it gendered?

        Our whole thing is 1 page. I think it’s fairly simple and straightforward.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Ours focuses on the clothing that is and isn’t allowed, too. There’s nothing that is specific to men or women, which to me makes more sense. (Years ago, I found the old dress code that had been superseded by the “we’re business casual now” memo that used to function as our dress code – but was technically still in effect should upper management ever revoke the memo. It was written in the late 70s/early 80s & kind of funny. “Pedal pushers are a current fashion trend for women. Do not make an issue of them.” There were also rules about men tucking in their shirts.)

    4. Dress Code*

      Thanks, these are helpful places to start! I think I’ll spend the afternoon redlining some of the better policies I’ve turned up until they’re what I’m looking for!

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        And don’t forget Alison’s “no visible armpits rule.”

        The one that seems to escape many of my coworkers is that clothing should be “neat, clean, and in good repair.” (Aside from the mail room and grounds keeping staff, most people here have desk jobs, so this shouldn’t be as hard as it seems to be.)

        1. Marcela*

          No, please, don’t. I wear sleeveless tops and dresses all the time, and since I am a software developer, my arms are always by my side, so unless you have a freakish obsession with armpits and go looking for mine, you’ll never see them. And I would be super annoyed by such rule.

  99. overeducated and underemployed*

    How do you pump yourself up for interviews, or just get in a positive, can-do state of mind?

    I pretty much bombed an interview for a job I think would’ve been amazing a couple of weeks ago because I went in in a bad state of mind – the interviewer didn’t pick up her phone for almost 20 minutes after I was supposed to call her for our scheduled phone interview, she asked for an in-person interview two days later, and rescheduled it twice between the night before and the day of, and then by the time I actually got there (a 2 hour drive, so not THAT easy to do on super short notice), I was just kind of in a “convince me this job is worth it and you won’t suck as a manager” mood. Then literally the first question she asked was “What would you do to change or improve our program?” when I hadn’t even had a chance to ask my questions about the details of the program first, since only pretty general info is available online. (Lesson learned I guess: feel things out more in phone interview to be prepared for that right away?) I haven’t heard anything back from that interview, and don’t expect to, but after the annoyance faded I realized it would’ve been a really cool job.

    TL;DR I messed up due to being in a bad head space. I have two interviews that I want to do well on next week, but I’m feeling kind of emotionally exhausted by the job search and anxious that I won’t get past the interview stage anywhere.

    Any tips on perking up? what do you do to prepare emotionally as well as intellectually?

    1. stk*

      The best I can offer is just having enough to eat and enough sleep. Treat yourself well, and hiccups like that generally seem a lot less of a big deal. It’s still tough, though, when you really care about something and it seems like it’s going horribly. I’ve had an interview experience that sounds a bit like that, and it sucked.

      Oh the other thing is, having multiple irons in the fire! If you feel like you have options, then again, any single thing going wrong seems less terrible. But that’s also hard to do.

      (Good luck.)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Great link, thanks for posting it. I hope a lot of people look at it. I was very moved when she got to the story about her accident.

    3. Christian Troy*

      TBH, the situation what you describe is not something I agree to do anymore. I used to be the type of person who made excuses or justifications for people who never called or kept changing the interview time and I just don’t anymore. If there is a valid reason (emergency family situation), then that’s different, but being 30 minutes late because you forgot and now you’re loudly eating your sandwich while you struggle to remember who I am, is not going to work. I do not do last minute interviews either; I think it’s disrespectful to my time to expect me to drop everything just because I’m not working full-time.

      I’m not sure if this is the response you’re looking or whatnot, but for me personally, it’s been critical to stick to these kinds of boundaries for my own mental and emotional health so I can present the personable, enthusiastic version of myself. I’ve been down the road you describe and I realized I needed to make sure I was prioritizing my own needs, which include structure and keeping to a plan that is a realistic.

    4. CrazyCatLady*

      Until recently, I’ve gotten extremely nervous at interviews to the point where it affected my performance. There are a few things that have helped me lately:

      *Realizing that I’m screening them just as much as they’re screening me. They have a need, I have a need and maybe those needs will match, maybe they won’t!

      *Beforehand, I do a lot of deep-breathing and reviewing the job description and my notes. I try to come up with examples to tie my experiences in with their job descriptions right before, when I’m at the peak of anxiety. I figure if I can do it in my car, I can do it inside.

      *While waiting, I just keep thinking about all the positive things I’ve achieved and just generally try to think positively about myself (this is a huge stretch for me, but I figure… fake it til you make it?)

    5. videogame Princess*

      Don’t beat yourself up. They are disorganized and would be a terrible place to work. Think of what happened as your subconscious speaking through your actions, saying “I don’t want to work there, ever.”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe this is your intuition in overdrive. Maybe there is something about this job that is NOT FOR YOU and you are getting that message clearly, but on an intuitive level.

  100. Sarasaurus*

    Family drama time!

    My company is hiring an office manager. The position has been open for a while, so I decided to share a link to the job posting on my personal Facebook page (I realize now this was a mistake). I wrote something like “Just an FYI if anyone’s looking! We’re a great place to work!” This was about a week ago.

    Yesterday, I got an email from our HR coordinator. My brother-in-law’s wife (who I do not get along with well) has applied to the position and clearly stated in her cover letter that she was referred by me, and that I would be happy to serve as a reference for her. I have no idea what made her think she was qualified, considering that her only work experience is a few sporadic stints in retail/food service. HR’s email says that she does not seem to fit the qualifications, but they wanted to ask me about her before completely ruling her out. I replied and told them flat-out that I had no idea she was even applying, but that I agree she’s unqualified and I don’t see her doing well here.

    I also sent sis-in-law a message telling her that I didn’t realize she was interested, and that I don’t feel comfortable giving recommendations for anyone I haven’t worked with. I also said (gently) that I don’t think she has the experience they’re looking for. Now, because she’s 30-something going on 12, she’s basically on the warpath against me. She’s telling everyone who will listen that I think I’m better than her, that I won’t even help family, etc., etc. Just ridiculous drama for the sake of it, basically.

    I guess I don’t really need advice since I’m used to dealing with her antics and have no problem ignoring her. It’s just one headache that I don’t need this week!

    1. Adam V*

      Ouch. I’m sorry you’re going through it.

      I’d just be polite to her whenever you see her. Odds are she’s going to be nasty, and people will see the difference between your attitudes and should quickly realize she’s exaggerating. If anyone asks, just tell them that you couldn’t be a reference for her and that she didn’t take it well, and they should sympathize. (Hopefully.)

      I wonder if your spouse can tell their brother to tell his wife to knock it off? I know I personally wouldn’t like hearing something like this from my brother, but I’d definitely prefer a quick phone call to hash it out than a contentious holiday get-together.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would be so very tempted to say, “I will help you when you are ready to receive help.”
      Yeah, I don’t make out well in these situations, either.

  101. stk*

    I posted last week about omg-I-have-an-exam-to-do-help, and today I have just had the interview and exam. I am very pleased to not have thrown up or otherwise hideously embarrassed myself as far as I can tell. I think I have a chance, anyway. And if I get it, it will be entirely down to this website.

    (The word is I will hear one way or another on Monday. I am desperately trying not to get my hopes up too badly. Any advice on that would be good. Clearly I need to apply to another job this weekend…)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Good luck! Tell yourself you are on vacation- no thinking about work or jobs is allowed. Let us know how it goes for you, fingers crossed!

  102. Jessen*

    Anyone have any good tips for faking cheerful/excited for those of us who don’t naturally do that? I’m in a work environment where everyone is kind of expected to be very out-going and “woohoo!” about things, and I just don’t do that naturally unless I’m really drunk.

    1. Anonamaniac*

      Pick a catch-phrase and say it a lot. Something like “amazing” works well.
      Also, ask a lot of questions – excitement is just interest on steroids!

      1. Jessen*

        There’s not really a lot to ask questions about, sadly. It’s kind of a mcJob – any idiot could do what I’m doing and I’m just there until I manage to find something better.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      “That’s great!” or a small “Yay!” accompanied by the most genuine-looking smile you can muster. I find it helps to squint a little or raise your eyebrows while smiling (…not at the same time).

    3. LBK*

      Some tips from an annoyingly enthusiastic person:

      -Use hyperbolic adjectives. I describe things as “super” embarrassingly often. I also use “perfect,” “fantastic” and “beautiful” a lot.

      -Make eye contact and smile a lot if you can muster it without it looking forced. Nod in agreement a lot while someone’s speaking and/or give little “yep” “mmhm” “got it” interjections. Ask a ton of questions and engage in discussion – even if your body language doesn’t show enthusiasm when you do this, you look like you care more about things when you involve yourself in them.

      -If you’re writing, find natural places to add exclamation points. I end almost every email with “Thanks!” even if I’m the one who was doing the favor. Don’t go overboard! Not every sentence needs one! You don’t need to be Chris Traeger! But you can be Leslie Knope and just interject them in a few place.

      -Think about what you’re like when you’re discussing something you’re really passionate about – do you use certain phrases to communicate enthusiasm? Does your body language or voice change? See if you can pull in some of those elements. Even April Ludgate’s voice changes when she’s talking about something she likes (man, I really hope all these Parks references aren’t lost on you). You may even be able to pick up some behaviors from how you are when you’re drunk, although I would not recommend picking up all of them.

      -This may fold into the point above naturally, but try to speak faster and louder and enunciate well.

      -If all else fails, drink extra coffee or have a sugary treat before meetings or other moments when you’ll need to be really jazzed up. If there’s a video or GIF or joke or picture that always cracks you up, also have that available as a pick-me-up. There’s a comic from Tumblr about doodling vs. trying to draw that makes me laugh just thinking about the punchline that I’ve been using lately as my mood booster.

    4. November*

      It’s kind of like that where I work, so I try to smile more than I’m normally inclined to (my face naturally arranges itself into Grumpy Cat if I’m not actively thinking about it). I find the smiling both helps me look a little more “rah rah” about things, and actually -be- a little more “rah rah” (it’s kind of like when I resolve to smile, my brain is trying to find something for me to actually smile about. So, what do you know, that Vanilla Creme Tea Strainer Wakeen is working on is actually pretty great, I should tell him that!).

  103. Ann Furthermore*

    General vent. My co-workers and I spent the last year and a half implementing a new ERP system for another subsidiary of the company that owns ours. Complete nightmare, start to finish. They spent the entire time with their heads buried in the sand, pretending this was never going to happen, and paid no attention to anything we did. As a result, when we went live, they were completely unprepared and had no idea how to do anything. They’ve been unable to meet any of their deadlines since moving into this new system.

    This of course is all our fault, and they have taken zero responsibility for any of the problems they’ve been having. They’re so sure it’s our fault that they brought in 2 independent consultants to evaluate what we did, and I’m positive they were rubbing their hands together in gleeful anticipation of the laundry list they were sure the consultants would provide of everything we screwed up. This hasn’t happened. They’ve made one or 2 decent suggestions, but beyond that, nothing significant. The things they bring up make us think they’re grasping at straws to try and justify the insane rates they’re charging.

    Fast forward to yesterday when I was greeted with a red alert situation as soon as I got to the office. No one in any of our European entities was able to process any payments. The European team worked the issue all day, handed it off to us, and we worked on it all day. We were able to identify a workaround, but still had not figured out what caused the problem to begin with. We handed it back to the European team, and they continued to work it overnight.

    Come to find out one of these consultants — who is supposed to be eminently more qualified than any of my co-workers or me — made a change that impacted payment processing for everyone, even though he assured us it would only affect this one subsidiary. And after looking more at what he did, it was an idiotic assumption for him to make. Gah!

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’ve seen some of the other posts you’ve made about this project, you have my sympathy. It sounds like a complete nightmare!

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      I echo Apollo on this and offer virtual hugs. It seems like a total nightmare from start to finish :(

    3. Adam V*

      Awesome! The consultant handed you a trump card.

      “Why should we listen to anything you say about what you think *we* did wrong, when *you*, in your infinite wisdom, broke our payment system for all of Europe? Thanks for your report, I know just where to put it.”

      *drops it in the trash*

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      I just got off a call with one of these consultants, and he said that the work we did was the same caliber as that of a Deloitte implementation, and from the tone of his voice, that was high praise indeed. He also used the word “phenomenal” TWICE when talking about my documentation.

      When he said that, my reply was, “Well, could you tell them that? They’re still telling me it’s not detailed enough.” And he laughed.

      Ah, vindication…what an awesome way to end the week.

  104. Risin3*

    Any suggestions on how to overcome “new job fear”?

    My very first job after university was a toxic environment through and through – all thanks to the manager. However, I did actually enjoy what I was doing when she wasn’t hanging about. Soon after that I moved on to my second and current position in a completely different field than what I’ve done before. Turns out, it’s not for me. At all. It causes too much stress and I can’t deal with this anymore – it’s eating away at my life. Anyway, after applying for a new job (doesn’t matter what it is) I begin thinking about all of the horrible things that could happen…bad coworkers…soul-sucking work…controlling boss. You name it, it passes through my mind and it makes me so *afraid*. Is there any way to break from this negative mindset?

    2. Liza*

      Risin3, I have two suggestions, one from therapy and the other from the recent “what are you good at?” thread:

      For the scared words and concepts that go through your mind: think of some specific positive things to focus on instead, and train yourself to think about them any time you start having the negative thoughts. If your thoughts are in words, think of phrases to repeat; if your thoughts are in movie form, script yourself a new movie to imagine. Does that make sense? For example, if you start listing horrible things that could happen, interrupt yourself and start listing good things that could happen: fulfilling work, good relationships with coworkers, finding a mentor… It takes some time to train yourself to the new mental habits, but it can be really effective.

      For the physical butterflies in the stomach feeling that may go along with that: someone pointed out in the other thread that the physical symptoms of nervousness are the same as the physical symptoms of excitement. She was able to train herself into looking forward to speaking to groups (instead of fearing it) by training herself to believe she was excited about it instead of scared–because the butterflies in the stomach go equally well with either.

      Good luck!

    3. super anon*

      This sounds a bit like anxiety. One thing that really helped me work through a lot of my anxiety was reframing my thoughts and bringing myself back to the present. A big part of anxiety and fear (at least for me) is going from 0-100 with my thoughts. Ex: if someone says they want to talk to me I immediately think I’m in trouble/getting fired when that’s never the case.

      When you start having these thoughts try reframing them for yourself. Instead of thinking of all the bad things that happen, instead think of the good things. So, when you start thinking “omg my new coworkers could be terrible and bad work and micromanaging boss!!” think to yourself “yes, that could happen, but there are a lot of workplaces where that isn’t the case!”, and remind yourself of the good things that are out there. Also, make a plan! Realize that you can’t control for everything, and that bad situations exist, but you can do your best to weed them out by asking targeted questions during interviews, doing research on glassdoor, etc. It’s not 100% foolproof, but it’s better than nothing.

      Finally (and this one was a big one for me), if you do end up somewhere bad again it isn’t a failing for you, or even about you. Sometimes we just don’t fit in places and that’s okay, you can always look for greener pastures. Remembering that I have power in my life and wrt finding new work really helped me be a lot less scared and anxious of ending up in a bad working situation.

      1. Overeducated and underemployed*

        Hey I know this comment was for someone else but just wanted to say I find it helpful too. Definitely need to consciously redirect my thinking from “this could be bad!” To “what if it were awesome?”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      And you lived. Tell yourself this… “I went through X and I lived. If Y happens I will live through that too.” It’s a fact, it did not kill you and it won’t kill you. I have used this as a foundation to build on. “X situation at Y job did not kill me and neither will anything else that happens, either. Yes, I was miserable on many levels and that is another issue.” Okay, this is your foundation.

      Start to build up. Read about toxic work places, learn something about them. Seriously confront this worry head on. There’s lots of good materials out there. The human imagination is incredible, nothing you read in the book will be more frightening than what is already happening in your mind’s eye.

      There’s two ways to control soul-sucking work. One is to make sure you understand what the job is before you agree to it. The second is when the work gets boring, intervene at that point. Find some way to turn it into a game or a challenge. If you wait until it is at the stage of soul-sucking it’s too late.

      Also look into ways to handle stress. A link up above goes to power poses and using power poses to reduce stress hormones. I thought it was very interesting. Something a person can do at home and no one will ever know. There’s other in roads to handling stress loads also- simple things such as keeping hydrated, rest, healthy meals.

      Search this site for red flags on interviews. things to watch out for. Also, as you read along pay attention to the stories where people start saying “You dodged a bullet.” These stories show when to run.
      Knowledge is power. Give yourself a new pool of information to work with and vow to spend the rest of your life broadening that pool of information.

  105. HKM*

    I’ve just started a new job, which is at a new company but doing the same thing I’m used to.
    Unfortunately, this week a close family member died, and as I don’t know my coworkers that well I’ve not mentioned it to anyone except my manager.
    The stress of this (I live very far from my family at the moment) combined with new and hugely inefficient software to learn, has made me unhappier and more prone to stressed outbursts than usual. I’m certain I’ve made a terrible impression on everyone. In fact, a colleague told everyone this morning how she dreamt last night that I flipped out and quit over nothing.

    Does anyone have any advice on how to rectify the situation?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know how long you’ve been there or how much rectifying you really need, but I’d start by telling people other than your manager that you’ve suffered a loss. I’d also consider checking with the EAP, if they have one, or a therapist, if they don’t–“stressed outbursts” sounds pretty significant to me, and they’re likely a sign that you need more support right now.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you take walks- are you in a safe area for that? Walking can help a lot with processing emotions from grief and it also can help with stress.

  106. Indecisive Ingrid*

    Need some advice.

    I’ve been at my current job for 4 months, it’s a very big corporation but most of us are divided into teams of 5-10. When they hired me, they were also looking to hire a supervisor for one channel that my team oversees. (The supervisor would report to the director on our small team, I’d have 3-4 yrs less experience than the supervisor.) I was supposed to spend 30% working on the same channel this supervisor would oversee and the rest of my time helping out with other channels my team manages…but we haven’t been able to hire a supervisor yet, so I’ve been basically been spending 100% working on that role and reporting directly to our director with his oversight of course.

    I haven’t gotten to work on the other channels at all because this role has taken all of my time. Which I understand, but part of the reason I accepted the position was because I’d get a lot of exposure to the different channels on my team. I do however, love being somewhat of a channel owner and taking responsibility for these functions, and I think I’m doing a pretty good job according to the feedback I’ve received.

    We are now finally close to hiring a supervisor. I’m in agreement we would certainly benefit from more expertise (assuming that the new supervisor is a good hire), and it’s been extraordinarily time consuming for just me to handle. However, I know I’m going to feel weird going from the “channel owner” to a supporting role when they are hired because everyone directly contacts me for this role right now. We have another opening on my small team for a position I’d love to do. I’m qualified, and it would be a parallel role for what I was hired for under someone on my team I really work well with.

    My question is – when they bring the supervisor on board would it be ok for me to ask to do/apply for this other position on my team? I know I’ve only been here 4 months and don’t want to jump ship so quickly. But I can just forsee me feeling demoted when the supervisor comes along, and then bummed when another new hire starts working in the position I’d really like to take on.

    I did speak to the director about what the supervisor coming on board would mean for me and he said that realistically we should have 2 ppl working on my current channel (agreed!) and that I’d help manage some of the other projects my team is working on.

    Any thoughts? They are starting to interview for the role I’d like to do, so I’d like to raise this sooner rather than later. If it matters, I’m pretty new to the working world – 2 yrs experience in my field out of undergrad and everyone else on my current team has at least 10 yrs, though they are technically also 2 position titles above me.

    1. fposte*

      It depends–I’m not clear if you’re applying to this because it’s like what you’ve been doing and you want to keep doing it, or because you want to do just about anything other than go back to the job as it was originally constituted. If doing this point-person management made you realize how much you really enjoy that, and you’d like to keep doing it, that’s a fine thing to say and reason to inquire about the new position. But if it’s not much different than the old position and it’s just that you’re kind of soured on the original concept, four months seems early to seek to move.

    2. NacSacJack*

      I cant advise you on what you should do. Common sense would be to ask the hiring manager but that might feel icky. Leaving that aside, I will confirm what you think will happen if you wind up being “demoted” in terms of responsibility and level of access (not getting invited to directional meetings). You will feel down. Your work will suffer a bit. You will tend to get a little defensise, possibly snarky. It’s happened to me off and on over the last three years leading projects and then being asked to be a contributer to another project. Lets just say it: It sucks. What to do? Be professional. Remember your new role. Continue to do your very best work. Take some time away from work now that you’re freer. Go home at 5pm instead of 6pm or 7pm. Take that lunch hour to exercise. Leave work on time to exercise. Think of it as an opportunity to examine yourself, your role, your life and decide what direction you want to go. This last time it happened to me, I told my boss what to expect and to call me on it if I wasn’t meeting expecations. It was rocky and I got through it and my boss still gave me the opportunity he told me about when he asked me to sit tight for six months. At the end of it, I’m still on good terms with the project lead of that other project and now we’re collaborating together to deliver our joint projects. Talk to your manager. Tell him or her what you really like doing. Maybe they do want two leads on the same team. Can they manage it?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes taking two steps forward starts by taking a step backward. I think you should go back to your initial plan of learning different channels. You felt you wanted to do that for a reason, probably growth? You got side-tracked on this other task and it was lovely, you found out you liked it. Hey, good you discovered something about yourself. BUT. That opportunity dried up. Go back to your original plan,UNTIL you find something that is a better plan.

      The job you are leaving you talk about on the basis of feeling good. Your original plan you picked on a very different basis. Apples and oranges. Think about your original goals with the job. If you have changed your mind about those goals that is fine, no problem. But if those goals are still in place, then that is where you need to refer to.

  107. Genevieve Everidge*

    My question is for those in management, HR, or employees with disabilities who have asked for accommodations: I have GAD and IBS. In a future position (I am jobhunting), I would need flex time and/or telecommuting for accommodations. I currently have both as an independent contractor, and am looking for a position at a federal agency. When researching the work culture of a place, how does one ask (networking, and later negotiating after an offer) about those kinds of things? What has been your experience either asking for accommodations or giving them? Thanks for sharing.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Can you generally get accommodations for those conditions? I have both – that’s why I’m curious.

      1. Genevieve Everidge*

        Actually, I don’t know! They are both recent diagnoses for me (within the last year), though I’ve had the symptoms for much longer.

      2. Mimmy*

        Every situation is different – as long as you think an accommodation would allow you to do your job effectively, it’s worth having a discussion with your manager.

  108. Liza*

    I’ve been slowly reading through every post on this blog (and learning all kinds of useful things!) and I just discovered I’m not the only person to ever comment here as Liza! I was surprised since it’s not a common name. I need to figure out what picture I want to use in Gravatar and set that up so I’ll be clearly me.

    (I know the other Liza really is a different person and not just a comment I forgot I wrote, because she did set up a Gravatar icon and it’s a picture of her.)

    1. Liza*

      Oh, this is cool–I just set up the Gravatar today (that’s me playing my trombone at a renaissance festival I used to work at), and it seems to have automatically pulled in the picture to add to other comments I left with that email address. Neat!

  109. Ruffingit*

    So…I QUIT MY JOB! Put in my notice yesterday. Unfortunately only able to give a week due to training schedules for new job, but I feel like a huge weight has been lifted. I particularly want to say thanks to Not So New Reader whose wise words and encouragement really helped me through this difficult job!

    1. fposte*

      Congratulations, Ruffingit! That’s been an eagerly awaited thing, and I bet it will make your holidays extra happy.

      1. Ruffingit*

        So I called the big boss first (my boss’ boss) because she takes care of things like resignations and so on. She was bummed and wished me well. My boss literally did not say a word. He just nodded. And…he’s not said a thing about it since either, which I’m totally OK with. That guy has massive problems. I’m the third person in less than two years that he’s caused to leave the job. If the big boss can’t see what a problem he is, that’s OK. I don’t have to deal with it anymore. My co-worker was super sweet and congratulated me often throughout the day because she knows what I’ve had to deal with in terms of our boss and she was glad I was getting out even though it means more work for her for awhile.

        1. Doriana Gray*

          Congrats on the new job!

          And your (soon-to-be) former boss sounds an awful lot like my current one – she’s had four people leave the company, and three leave for other teams/divisions, in a three year timespan.

    10. Mimmy*

      I didn’t realize you’d accepted a new job, but I remember you saying how awful your (no longer) current job was. Congratulations!!!

    12. Ruffingit*

      Thank you all for the congrats! It feels so good to know that I don’t have to deal with this anymore. My last day is next Friday, but it’s already a totally different environment for me because of the relief I feel. I no longer dread getting up every day and going in to work to see if my job will be threatened (again) that day or if the rules will have changed mid-stream (again) or to deal with the silent treatment/hostility of my boss. Such a relief.

      I have to say…thank you to Alison and to the commenters on this side. I don’t believe I would have weathered this without you guys. There is something very helpful about being able to come here and vent, get advice, be comforted. Thank you so very much for that. It’s priceless.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Thank God you are out of that hole! oh my.

        Congratulations for being able to hunt while under extreme fire. You are a strong person.

        And congrats on your new gig. I wish you many happy/successful years!

        1. Ruffingit*

          Thank you so much! I meant what I said above about how much of a help you’ve been through this whole thing. You are such a gift. <3

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Pay it forward, man, just pay it forward. I am sorry you saw this and learned about this.
            I stayed in a job that sounded so similar to your setting it was scaring me. Yeah, I was actually scared for you. You did not say too much but I understood way too much of what you meant. I stayed over a decade. I have no one to blame but me, really. But I know those types of jobs do not get better, they only get worse. And then your health tanks and you are truly stuck. Best to just get out at the beginning.

            I think some places actually LIKE where they are at and they do not want to grow/improve. I suspect that you will find your former place had some corruption going on and that is part of the reason for the “stagnation”. Just my opinion though.

            Hey, new beginnings, so CHEERS [raises glass and clinks]. I will be very excited to hear about new place.

  110. super anon*

    A month ago I posted about getting a new office, but not being able to use it because it was absolutely filled with the previous tenants things (and had been for over a year before I got the office). It’s now been nearly 3 months since I got the office and it is still filled with this other person’s things. I took the advice people had and tried asking the woman who approved me getting the office if she could help me since my other tries had been unsuccessful. During this conversation she asked me “well.. what if she (woman who had the office before me) doesn’t have anywhere to put her things?”. I felt like she was stonewalling me, and basically telling me that if the woman had no storage I was stuck with her things forever. I replied with “I don’t know, but that’s not really my problem?” to her question (which was kind of rude, I admit). Now, this woman took huge exception to me saying this and complained to my coworker and bosses, saying that if I didn’t care about this woman’s things, how could they expect me to care about anything else? Do I even care about my job? She even suggested taking my office away if I didn’t care about having it, since she had done me4 a favour by giving it to me (which isn’t true – I need it to follow confidentiality rules. I could get fired very quickly if I didn’t have an office). I ended up getting a huge reprimand for my attitude and had to apologize to the woman for not caring about things. Ugh.

    So, since then nothing has happened. I was told the woman would be contacted, but she still hasn’t come to get her things. Everything is still here and I’m about at my wits end. I have confidential files I can’t lock up safely, I can’t have meetings in my office because there is no space. I am a very organized person so it’s driving me insane having an unorganized office! I have no idea what I an do about it either. Everyone I can ask has ignored me or done nothing. There’s no one above these people I can go to, and my own bosses are very unresponsive and haven’t gotten back to me either.

    Honestly, I’m job searching for lots of reasons, but this office situation is #1 on the list. I seriously can’t handle it anymore!

    1. Dawn*

      That’s really stupid and you’re absolutely in the right to want to leave over it. Especially since you can’t lock up sensitive documents anywhere!

    2. Adam V*

      Come in early one day and swap offices with the woman who got upset. I’m sure she’d love to be the one taking care of all the junk^H^H^H^Hleftover treasures.

      /s

      1. super anon*

        God, I wish I could do that but she is the woman who reviews all of our travel/expense claims before they get forwarded to the director for final approval, and I do a lot of traveling that I need to have expensed. She’s a very vindictive and petty woman, so if I get on her bad side she would be the type to never approve any of my expense claims.

        She’s done a lot of other shady things that I’ve heard about through the grape vine that I doubt I should share here, but suffice it to say you don’t want to be on her bad side or she’ll make your life a living hell.

      1. Creag an Tuire*

        Tempted hell, my response to this would be “Since I cannot comply with [insert what ever Important Confidentiality Rule here] with this person’s things in the way, if they are not claimed by [date] I feel I’ll have no choice but to throw them out. Unless anybody has an alternate solution that complies with [Rule]?”

        If they insist on telling you to violate confidentiality rules, you’ve got a solid case to escalate to HR, and if that doesn’t work run the eff away.

    4. fposte*

      Does your boss know that you can’t properly handle confidential documents? If your boss knows and doesn’t care, that’s a big problem in its own right.

    5. Creag an Tuire*

      Is the previous tenant a current or former employee?

      Based on your post, I suppose “dumping all of this person’s things in her current office”/”throwing them away” isn’t feasible, despite evidently being a lawsuit waiting to happen?

      1. super anon*

        a former employee. she no longer works on the project that her data belongs to that she left in my office (and that’s another headache in it’s on right, i had decades of confidential files in the office that i have no business to have access to) but she is still with the organization, albeit in a different department.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This company sucks. They are more worried about one individual’s ability to store stuff than they are their clients’ confidentiality.
      They are saying it’s her stuff, but if it is work she did for them, then isn’t technically company stuff?
      Can you order locking cabinets and line the hallway in front of your office? I mean what else can you do.
      You could anonymously tip off a regulatory body and let them know there are problems. I would sorely be thinking about that one.

    7. Artemesia*

      There is no reasonable boss anywhere on earth who thinks that storing someone’s personal possessions in work space for months is appropriate. These people, your boss and those who supported her in this idiocy, are loons. I hope you can get out of there soon, but know that this is ridiculous.

    8. Observer*

      Can you kick this upstairs? Skip the stupid stuff and make the point that you are required by regulations to honor confidentiality by working on certain things in private AND BY LOCKING UP FILES. Since the office is filled with another person’s files, you cannot comply WITH THEIR REGULATIONS.

    9. Artemesia*

      Have you gone up the chain to your boss? It sounds like this woman is a minion who nevertheless controls much of value to you but you are already on her ‘bad side’ — Maybe sit down with your boss and outline the situation — stuff impeding your ability to manage confidential materials. What does he suggest as a solution to moving this stuff into some other storage or even the hall? If he deflects back to ‘well Idiette handles space.’ then come back — ‘but she isn’t handling this; she seems to view it as some sort of contest and it is making it impossible to get the job done effectively given the confidential materials I handle. Surely there must be some place these old materials can be stowed or perhaps if Laggerdly hasn’t come to get them in over a year, she really doesn’t need them anymore and they can be discarded?’

      Since this woman doesn’t work there anymore either they are obsolete business files, in which case, discard them or they are personal possessions of her in which case the office should not be her storage unit. This is so bizarre that it is hard for me to believe that whoever is the boss of this operation would think this reasonable. Over a year? Come on.

  111. Kassy*

    I know it’s been written here previously that interviewing should be about your fit with the role and the company, and that this is not the time to get into salary/benefits discussions. But is it appropriate to bring it up if I get to the “do you have any questions for me?” portion and there has been no mention of salary up to that point? The way I am thinking of it is: I won’t work for less than $X. It feels like a waste of time for everyone involved to get all the way to the offer stage and find out that the upper end of their range is $Y, which is $5,000 less than $X (a big deal at the salary ranges I’m currently in), or (more often) that there is no range at all and the pay is $Z, which is less than $X. I understand that lots of people have flexibility on salary and might take less for other reasons, but I think there are also many people like me, who don’t have that sort of wiggle room and would have to reject an offer out of hand in this scenario. Do employers really not mind when this happens?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      It’s totally reasonable to ask about the range in a first interview if it hasn’t been mentioned at all. Something like, “could you tell me the salary range you are looking at for this position?”

      What’s not okay is asking how much they would offer you personally (that is a question you get the answer to when they make an offer). It doesn’t sound like that’s what you were thinking, but people do it all the time, and it’s very off-putting. Just about every time someone does that, it’s awkward because I’ve already decided I’m not interested. It also annoys me because I ways publish (fairly narrow) ranges in the job description.

      1. Kassy*

        That’s a relief! That’s what I have been doing and I had hoped it wasn’t too off-putting. Thank you!

        I would definitely not do it if they had ranges in the job description (that weren’t wildly large). I would not apply if it didn’t work for me! But I guess that isn’t the case for everyone.

    2. Graciosa*

      I have no problem at all with it being brought up and am happy to share the salary range, but I would caution that having this be the *only* question a candidate asks would be a turn off.

      It’s kind of like a date showing no interest in anything other than your willingness to raise children. Yes, it’s important. Yes, a mismatch is a deal breaker. Yes, it needs to be discussed (and sooner is better, but definitely before things get too serious) – but you can agree on this one point and still be seriously incompatible if you don’t have sense enough to evaluate how well matched you are in other areas.

      1. Artemesia*

        I agree but if the further interviews use up your PTO or require travel etc, I sure would not continue without the ‘before we continue, we need to see if we are in the same ball park on salary range’ conversation. I know when hiring I have had candidates ask that and some dropped out of consideration; I was grateful for that because we didn’t have a huge budget to bring people in and I didn’t want to dance with people who were not going to be serious candidates. I was hiring for a position where we wanted ridiculous specific and high level skills, degrees and experience but were not willing to pay for it — so we needed someone looking for a post retirement gig or an early transitional job for a few years. We got great hires, but it was important for us to weed out great candidates who would never consider the salary. (and yes it would have been nice to post the range in the ad and also to make clear what we were really looking for — but politics — so I had to wade through dozens of applications from well qualified people but not qualified for our job as well as people who thought ‘competitive salary’ actually meant that.)

  112. Bananas*

    I’m looking for some advice on how you know if a career change is the right choice.
    Some background: I graduated from college 5 years ago, and since then have done a number of different things but haven’t been really on a “career path.” I got a social science masters degree 2 years ago, had a difficult time finding a job, and am now doing an unrelated job (higher ed admin) that I really dislike, working for an extremely difficult person- this job makes me feel pretty horrible most of the time, and I know I need to leave.
    For several years, I have vaguely been considering becoming a nurse. It’s been on my mind for a few years, and now that I’m in a place where I either need to leave my job because it’s making me miserable I am actually seriously considering the logistics.
    I know that in life you can never be sure what’s going to happen because of a change you make– but does anyone have any advice on making a career change based on a hunch/desire you have? Appreciate any insights!

    1. overeducated and underemployed*

      I actually have two friends who went from a social science graduate program to figuring out it wasn’t for them and going into nursing instead! Both of them basically had to make sure they took all of the required prerequisites for nursing school first, mainly by taking classes at the local community college while working, and then they just applied to nursing programs. One has just graduated and is looking for a full time job, and the other is in her third year of the program.

      The good thing about nursing is that there is a pretty clear path for how to get there. It sounds like you might not be 100% sure if you want to be there, though, so that’s worth trying to figure out. Could you try out some kind of volunteer program in a hospital or community health center, maybe? One of my friends spent a year in an Americorps position in community health while she was in the “don’t want to be a social scientist, don’t know what I want to be” instead zone and that is what turned her toward nursing.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Sure, my advice would be to not waste another minute turning it over in your head. Shadowing is fairly common in the medical field, and as luck would have it, nurses work all shifts. You can easily shadow nurses while you’re still in your j-o-b. Try to find some who have been in the field 10+ years, newer nurses, nurses in different departments. All I know about nursing is from my sister, but I know with other things, I have sat around thinking about it way too long, and when I finally have a 10 minute conversation with someone in that field, I learn much more than I do reading the internet.

    3. alex*

      For a few years I thought hard and wistfully about doing this exact thing with nursing but was depressed and discouraged when I researched the pre-reqs. I’d recommend checking the websites for programs in your area and see how close you are to meeting the application minimums currently.

      For reference, I’m ABD (MA+ all-but-diss for Phd) in a humanities field. And I would have to spend at least 1.5 years just being eligible to apply for nursing school. And I’d need a ton of loans for all of this. Basically I decided “nope; but I wish I could transport back to age 18.”

      Sorry to be a downer; your mileage may vary, and you could just go for it!

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Also: Do not underestimate the difficulty of Anatomy. I’ve never considered this career path because I prefer my sciences to have formulas, but my high school age son is in Anatomy right now. I helped him study for one test. Holy cow. What a horrible subject. My sister also mentioned some of her cohort struggling with it. (She was a biology graduate turned education graduate turned accelerated BSN program graduate.)

        I do have to add that the only thing I think she finds thrilling about her job is the employment opportunities. She never had that honeymoon period when she started; you know, when you ask someone about their job and they gush about how fantastic it is. She worked as a medical office admin for 7 years before, so she knew what she was getting into.

        1. katamia*

          Oh, yeah, I took Anatomy in high school and actually loved it (though I never considered becoming a nurse because I so don’t have the personality for it), but there’s a lot of memorization even at the high school level, and I’m sure the memorization requirements for nurses are much more intense.

          1. alex*

            Yes, nursing is rigorous.. It should be.
            But dropping out of another field to pursue nursing–that is a different question.

    4. katamia*

      Not a nurse, but a close friend is. Nursing can be physically taxing work. I don’t know what your health situation is like, but that’s something to keep in mind before you make the leap. (This thought brought to you by the rather depressing realization that an old injury makes a career I would love to try probably not possible for similar reasons because it would involve too much standing. *sigh*)

  113. sapidity*

    It’s not an offer yet, but I’ve been having a rather best-of-AAM hiring interaction on one prospect (in the good way, not in the “this will be a good AAM story” way!). The first contact with the hiring manager was a phone screen/interview in which she basically gave a masterclass on being a good and sane manager– gave me a great sense of the job, we had fantastic rapport, she was up-front about the salary range and made very clear that she doesn’t care about my previous salary except to make sure she’s offering me enough increase to motivate me to take the position if offered. Plus interest in making sure we could build a career path that would be interesting and rewarding for me, eventually a really interesting morning of interviews, and then today, a courteous email to give me a heads-up that she would actually be contacting my references.

    I know all of those are reasonable things to do and ways to act when hiring, I just… have never experienced them, especially not all at once. Maybe some of it is that I’m coming from academia and looking at corporate, or perhaps more of an “unhealthy organization to potentially healthier organization” contrast. Either way, I’m loving it, and there is just nothing like working with a hiring manager who talks and acts like she reads this blog!

      1. sapidity*

        I’d be delighted to– but I don’t have an offer yet, and it’s not clear to me that this is a wide-spread thing in the company, I have a guess it may be more about this one hiring manager. We’ll see!

  114. GOG11*

    Question regarding awards: Would it inappropriate/is there an appropriate way to request, suggest or ask someone to nominate me for an award my company gives out each year? It is basically for going above and beyond and, while it doesn’t give any monetary benefit, it is recognition and it would be really nice to receive. I’ve taken on a number of projects and assignments, some of which are once a year things and some of which are ongoing, across a couple areas at work that aren’t related to where I work. For these assignments, I report directly to those areas, so my boss isn’t really kept in the loop. Would it be less weird to approach my boss or less weird to pick a project and approach the person I report to for that? Each individual project is nice, but it really feels “award-worthy” when all the extra stuff is considered together.

    1. LBK*

      Rather than trying to pick a project or pick your manager, I’d pick whoever you have the best relationship with. Even if you may have done better or more work for someone else, I find that usually if the person likes you they’ll be more enthusiastic in how they write about you. I also think it will be the least awkward to ask that person to nominate you because they’ll usually be most excited about the possibility of you being recognized.

      (I say this as someone who’s had 4 quarterly award nominees win based on the nominations I wrote about them. I would’ve been happy to write nominations for all of those people if they had asked me to and I wasn’t planning to already.)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Pick your biggest fan.

        My husband would have a customer that just gushed all over about what a great job he did. He’d put on a small grin and softly ask, “Would you tell my boss?” And the customer did! If he had not asked he would not have gotten the nice letter in his file.

  115. Amber Rose*

    Silly question! I want to take a Friday off, Dec 18. I don’t technically have time off this year but I did previously take a couple days off fine. Since then boss and I had a little spat and I’m feeling unsure.

    My question is, should I make it seem like I have something super important happening that day? I mean, I sort of do, I have advanced screening tickets for Star Wars at like 9 am. XD

    But obviously that’s not important to anyone else but me and the other crazy fans.

    1. fposte*

      No, you shouldn’t lie about or misrepresent why you want a day off; you don’t need to go into details either, though. “I’d like to take Friday the 18th off. Would that work?”

      But be prepared that the answer may be no, too, since you don’t technically have time off and you’ve already taken some.

    2. Creag an Tuire*

      Don’t risk the lie.

      If somebody tags in you a Facebook post wearing your Princess Leia outfit on the day you took off work for a “super important appointment” yer fooked.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would not do this given no time available to use and just having a spat with the boss. Not worth it.

  116. Confuseddaze*

    So, I have a phone screen coming up for a position that I’m under quilified for. I have the knowledge (masters degree) but I don’t have the 3-5 years they are asking for. How do I sell my real world experience (in other fields or same field but different subject matter) along with my knowledge?

    1. GOG11*

      I would look at the job post and see what they are looking for and then think of specific examples of things you’ve done that demonstrate the things they’re looking for. I don’t have any advice for selling it, so to speak, but I think if you’re specific and what they want really does match up with what you have to offer that would be selling it enough.

  117. AmyNYC*

    I just accepted a new job and resigned my current one, but I’m now having second thoughts…. This was a REALLY tough decision – I don’t hate my current job and didn’t want to leave, but this opportunity fell into my lab and it’s just too good to say no to.
    No job is perfect, so there are some things I’m excited to be done with, but since making this decision, it’s like I have rose colored glasses about my current job and I’m full of “what ifs” – what if I hate the new job? what if my (current) boss hates me for leaving? what if I don’t make friends at the new job? did I make a huge mistake?
    Please, someone tell me this is normal and it’s all going to be ok!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      TOTALLY normal. The rose-colored glasses effect is real. Enjoy your last few weeks at your old job, and enjoy reminiscing on all the things you like about it. Then, after your last day, mentally recall some of the things you are glad not to deal with anymore and start looking forward to your new job!

    2. Graciosa*

      Even good changes can be frightening, but once you’re past the nostalgia (old job) and fear (new job) you’ll be fine.

      Not a Real Giraffe is right – this is totally normal.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I agree that this is totally normal stuff to go through.

      One rebuttal to all the questions used to torture yourself, could be, “Okay, worst case scenario, if it turns out to be a bad job,I will get myself out of there and find something better. I promise not to make me stay there, if the situation is bad.”

  118. Toriew*

    How much notice should you give if you are planning on resigning right after the holidays? I am planning on moving in early January and am trying to decide if I should stick to the traditional 2-week notice, or give a longer notice period. My entire office closes for the major holidays, and a significant number of staff take lengthy vacations during this time.

    I am planning on wrapping up all of my projects to the best of my ability, but I know a lot of the people I work with will be on vacation and won’t have the opportunity to ask questions about what I’ve been working on. On the other hand, I wouldn’t want to put a damper on anyone’s vacation with the news that I am leaving. It’s been rough in our office the last few months, and I know the news would cause a lot of stress.

    1. fposte*

      Will the longer notice alleviate the stress some? In most cases it would, and in general I’d say people would rather know before the holidays than have to deal with a transition in only two weeks. Do you think your office would be like that?

      1. Toriew*

        I don’t know if it would alleviate stress or not. I’m mostly concerned about the people I work most closely with, and I know they are planning on being on vacation for the majority of my intended notice period. Even if I gave a longer notice, they wouldn’t be able to act on that knowledge until they came back… which would be the week I intend to leave.

        I’m also weighing the fact that our office will be undergoing significant changes to management and structure in January that is already causing a lot of worry and discomfort. Several people have resigned in the last couple of months and no one has given more than two weeks notice.

        1. fposte*

          If two weeks’ notice has been standard, and people have been fine with that, then I think you’re fine sticking to it.

    2. Meg Murry*

      At a minimum, you need to give notice when you are going to be working for close to 2 full weeks – so it’s ok to wait until after the holidays if you aren’t leaving until after January 15th, but if it’s before that, I would recommend not waiting beyond mid-December.

      That said, I don’t think it will put a damper on anyone’s vacation to know you are leaving – I think it would be more of a damper to come back from a restful vacation to your notice, especially if it’s less than 2 weeks from then.

      If they are already doing some kind of re-org in January, and you know it is a 100% done deal that you are moving, it would be more polite to give notice soon, perhaps when you come back from Thanksgiving? Again, there is the bare minimum (giving 2 weeks notice) and then there is leaving on a good note with a favorable impression (giving more than 2 weeks since you know people will be out of the office for vacation).

      The only major reason I could see not to give earlier notice is if you think they will tell you to just go sooner than early January and you would be out several weeks of needed pay.

  119. bookish*

    Infrequent poster here to shout a big Thank You for the help to my question here a few weeks ago about a rigorous volunteer-application process. Commenters’ suggestions; earlier gleanings from Alison’s posts and posters’ comments really helped, as did Alison’s book.

    I was able to zoom in on what the group’s needs are and demonstrate how I could help. Thanks to you folks, I also was able to evaluate whether the group’s approach and philosophy were a good fit for me (they’re even better than I had anticipated before applying). So … HOORAY, I was selected for the upcoming annual cohort and am looking forward to training, which begins after the holidays. Thank you!

  120. lfi*

    i started a new job in september and negotiated to have my december vacation off. all was fine.. until everyone here realized the impact it would be with me out. we are short staffed, and with year end and monthly recons due in a tight turnaround it doesn’t look feasible.

    now they are asking if i could forgo my vacation. on one hand, i’m a bit relieved as its a far away destination to get to. but on the other, i’m irritated. they don’t want me taking a laptop out of the country as the information i’d be working on is confidential even though.

    i should add, that this vacation has happened every year, however this might be the last year that we are able to do it as we are thinking of starting a family next year.

    should i try to bargain for anything since they are about to reneg on something that was negotiated at my hire?

    1. fposte*

      I’m assuming that if you’d actually booked and would be out money that’s something you’d have mentioned.

      This is annoying, I agree; you specifically raised it and got permission for it, and they’re lucky that you only seem to be mildly annoyed by the prospect of changing it. I’m not up on corporate cultures that include vacation bargaining, but I’d think you could ask for time and a half off as replacement for the missed days in keeping with the standard comp time formula; while that would be way out of culture at some companies, it seems like something others could handle pretty easily. I personally wouldn’t get into a big fight about it, but I think it’s reasonable that you should get a nice courtesy for your willingness to let go of time that you had explicitly negotiated only a few weeks ago.

      1. lfi*

        we don’t have tickets booked yet because they are so darn expensive – that’s my only saving grace.

        i’ll float it by them and see what they say. i asked to take some days off at the end of the period i had request and extend into january a bit, but that doesn’t seem to work either since we have some year end items to work on for reporting purposes. oi vey.

        1. fposte*

          A thought–these days aren’t going to disappear at the end of the calendar year, are they? Because that would be really unfair.

          1. lfi*

            nope it rolls over – but i do have a personal choice holiday to use before then (which i guess i will just shift to NYE….)

  121. grumpy career changer*

    My nerves are absolutely shot. This afternoon I am going to decline an offer because I expect to receive another offer on Monday that aligns more closely with where I want my career to go, is more prestigious, offers more money, and is located in the metro area that I want to be in.

    But no matter how great it is to hear “You are by far the better candidate” and “I expect to be calling you with good news at 12:15 on Monday,” it’s not the same as “we are offering you this position.”

    My nerves are shot. I will be good for nothing all weekend.

  122. Charlotte*

    I’m doubting my recent salary negotiations. I just accepted an offer for almost 14% less than what I’m currently making but I was open to taking at least some sort of cut. Basically the gist is that they told me on the first call what the salary base was. It was lower than I expected or would be willing to take based on my historical comp and years of experience. I said I’d like to continue with the interview process bc I didn’t want money to be the only factor under consideration.

    I made it through interviews that went really well, they called references and at this point I told them I knew I was worth more than the original salary based on the fact that I am more experienced than someone who was more “green” and who they may have been looking for initially. The hiring manager went back to see what they could do. She came back with a $7500 increase. I went back and asked for a $10K increase from the original base (so $2500 more). She said that knowing my base asking price was what they needed to get to the amount I said.

    Now I’m kicking myself for not asking for more. Is it realistic to think I could have gotten them to go up 20% from the original base? I got them up 13% where I am now. Since I won’t be a manager in this role, and the overall company, job, people I am really excited about compared to where I am now, I was open to taking a cut since it wouldn’t be a lateral move and there were a lot of pluses/perks that seem to go along with the role. I also didn’t want to price myself out of consideration by pushing for too much – but I guess the worst they would have said was no and I would have the option of still taking what was on the table.

    I’m excited but feeling a bit down about the salary. The salary cut won’t drastically change my standard of living, and at the end of the day we’re talking about a difference of $5K from what I would have been more happy with, but it’s never easy to swallow a $13K annual salary decrease. So in the end, should all the pros of the role outweigh this nagging feeling that they just scored an amazing deal on me and I could have gotten more?

    Thanks for any moral support.

    1. Graciosa*

      It sounds like you did well, so I would not let anxiety about whether you could have done a little better ruin your peace of mind. Salary is only one factor in evaluating a job offer – an important one, but not the only one.

      If you thought this was going to be a good role for you overall and were not deliberately misled, assume that you were right in your decision and your current concerns are the equivalent of buyer’s remorse.

  123. losses*

    Just learned that a co-worker, who was fine 2 weeks ago, is in coma and will likely die. She just was out sick for a few days and then we heard about this; the family did not tell us what she has exactly, but the prognosis is grim. I am not even close to this co-worker but we’ve worked together >15 years, and I’m having a real hard time doing anything.

    1. super anon*

      i’m so sorry, it can be shocking to lose someone you know even if they aren’t close to you. if your company haas an eap line i suggest calling it. i’m doing phone grief counselling with my efap provider now and it’s been a really helpful resource for dealing with the shock and grief of losing my grandfather (who raised me) 2 months ago.

  124. Anonyby*

    So I didn’t post this last week because I was super busy at work! I’m really proud of it, and really wish it were something that could reasonably go on a resume.

    For background: part of my job involves floating around between different offices within the company, helping out as needed. We used to have one way of storing Important Financial Documents that became obsolete when the company went paperless a few years ago.

    Well, I was asked to help out at one of the offices, and then when I came in, they had found 30 old boxes that the previous admin team forgot to prepare and send off to storage, and they needed to be handled ASAP and the current admin team was stressing over them. They all needed to be gone through, three identifying pieces of information from each file written down on a form (one per box), with averaging 25-35 files per box. The day before another person had done 5 boxes in the 5 hours she was there. I went in on the first day and managed to get another 5 boxes done in what was realistically closer to 3 hours (and one of the boxes had twice the average number of files).

    Then on the second day I was there a full day, and really put my nose to the grindstone, because I managed to get the other 20 done in one day. My hand was cramping and I was really worried that I was going to get a blister on my finger from writing so much! (Not to mention the dryness of the paper and the dust from age being murder on my skin and lungs.) I felt so proud! I started the day thinking that I’d get through maybe 2/3 of the remaining boxes, but around lunch I realized that I had over half of them done and could finish even slowing to the previous day’s pace.

    1. Graciosa*

      Congratulations! Enjoy the way this feels – I bet everyone is thrilled to have this finally taken care of.

  125. Gareth Keenan Investigates*

    Any words of encouragement when struggling to find my groove in a new job? I really appreciate the work and people but feel like I’m not doing particularly well. It doesn’t help that I’m starting this position straight off of new parent leave and am seriously sleep deprived AND I’m the first person in this office to breastfeed so I came in needing unusual accommodations. I always feel a step or two behind where I’d like to be. No one has said anything yet and I haven’t done anything wrong, I think I was just hoping to make a great impression right off the bat.

    1. Graciosa*

      If this is basically a good team in a good company, they will get it. One of my early bosses at Current Employer hired someone who found out she was pregnant during the interview process. Life happens, and we handle it, and she was offered the job after sharing the news, and everyone wished her well and adjusted.

      If no one has said anything to you and you haven’t done anything wrong, I think you need to write off your insecurity as the result of the sleep deprivation. Let this anxiety go and give yourself a break.

      This too shall pass.

  126. Barb*

    Last week Alison answered my questions (and many of you jumped in) telling me NOT to tell my “dream employer” how much I feel they are the place for me. OK, fine, I won’t! (I had a feeling that’s what everyone was going to say, just wanted to be sure.) Anyway, even tho AAM said it would be fine to reach out and reiterate my interest without getting all woo-woo, I did nothing, and suddenly there is not one but TWO jobs posted on their website that sound great! They are very similar, reporting to the same person, but one is more senior than the other. I kind of feel like I should only apply for one rather than both, but I can’t figure out if it should be the more or less senior one. I have the number of years the senior job is looking for, but my particular area of expertise is a little better suited to the less-senior. Or I could apply to both, but like I said, it’s the same hiring manager. Any ideas? Thanks, all!

    1. Aussie Teacher*

      That’s great news! Apply for the more senior one, and since its the same hiring manager, if she thinks you’d be a better fit for the other job she’ll tell you or bring it up herself. Don’t sell yourself short!

  127. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

    Hey guess what!

    It turns out if you dump way too much work on a heretofore high performing team, they start screwing everything up.

    FML.

    I’m trying to fix it it.

    :(

    this has been a public service message

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Hoo boy, I know exactly how that feels. EXACTLY. Because I am the high performing “team” and I’ve started screwing everything up (well, not everything), and my boss is working hard on fixing it. Without really blaming me, because no one person can manage and do 7 projects simultaneously when 2 is the norm, 3 is the max.

      It’s been a rough week.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        But they are so awesome, why can’t they also be magically expanding and just do all the things (picture the “all the things” meme here) and do them as amazingly wonderfully as they always do?????

        Such a clusterf**k. And now we’re in endless rotations of error fixes.

        Who is running this place???

        ( I did give them more staff which I thought would help but it might have made things worse.)

        :-(

      2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Here’s one story from today that might amuse you, since it’s not you. :-)

        Teapot supplier splits into two different supplier awhile back. Because [reasons this is confusing] we hold off from adding products, for a couple of years. Last month, one of my guys comes to me and says he’d like to push a bunch of products online for one of them because [reasons no longer confusing]. I say “run! fly!” with the amount of attention to detail I’m paying to anything at the moment.

        Nobody fixes the back end.

        So he spends all of that time adding products which take off and then what happens next is….customers request samples….goes through sample pipeline….sample dept orders samples [FROM THE WRONG SUPPLIER because nobody fixed it]….supplier says “discontinued!”….filters to web maintenance….web maintenance removes the products from the website that guy just spent weeks setting up and making live.

        I literally just happened to stumble across this scene and put a halt to it two hours ago.

        So not the only one. So not. But one of the better stories!

          1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

            I had two Patron Margaritas Friday night, thank you.

            Eh, we’ll all get thru this, your group and my group. I’ve personally never seen anything like this happen before. The domino effect is dumbfounding.

    2. Clever Name*

      Uh yep. Bonus points if your most efficient worker breaks down in tears at being handed yet another project.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        This has not yet happened to me, however, I have had multiple team members says “I just want to cry” after XYZ has been founded fubared and needed to be redone………so I would like half points awarded.

  128. Elizabeth*

    Question if anyone is still hanging around here today—
    How do you tell someone the reason they are not being recommended for jobs by those they know is because they are always b*tching about their job on social media?
    Seriously- when she has a job its all about how much she hates it or how everyone is out to get her, and then she gets fired, then she’s begging people to recommend her, and the cycle starts again. Why would anyone recommend her for anything when she’s just going to make everyone look bad later when she starts complaining?

    1. fposte*

      Well, you can either let it go, or you can tell her by telling her. I’d make my call based on how close I was to her. If I only ever encounter her on social media, it’s not worth it. Sometimes with friends you can have a moment of honesty–after a certain amount of job-bitching, you say “But you feel like this about every job, and they all sound like the kind of jobs most of us have, so I don’t know what you’re looking for.”

      But mostly somebody like that is just digging her own hole, and there’s not a lot you can do to keep her from falling into it.

    2. Always Confused*

      I’m assuming this is a friend you’re referring to?

      Maybe, “The way you talk about your jobs so negatively on social media while you’re employed makes people hesitant to recommend you to their employers. No one wants their employer or coworkers to be publicly trashed.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Or maybe, “Don’t use references that have access to your social media accounts. They all see what you are saying and mentioned it to us.”

        If you think you can actually help this person, it might be worth the effort. But it sounds like there is a LOT of griping so maybe no one can help this person.

  129. Always Confused*

    At my review with my supervisor, they told me how grateful they are that I help out so many of my teammates (I spend *a lot* of time answering questions and walking people through how to do things). Then they asked me if I ever seek help for myself from two specific teammates. I said I don’t, because I’m close with a couple other people, and if I have a problem I will generally ask them. My supervisor said it would improve my soft skills if I started seeking help from those two specific teammates. I’m not sure what to make of this. I’m on a team of 2o people (we all do the same work), and I interact with at least half of them on a daily basis, and interact with people from other departments. I don’t understand why not reaching out to those two specific teammates means my soft skills need improvement.

    1. fposte*

      Sounds like it’s worth a followup question. “Can you explain a little more about why you think asking Jane and Bob will be particularly useful for me?”

      It’s currently not clear to me either, but I could conceive of there being reasons, some more valid than others.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Well, if you are regularly interacting with anyone who comes looking for help, and then only seeking advice from some of your senior folks, it could be coming across as actively avoiding interacting with part of your team. Even if the 2 people in question don’t really care, you are setting an example for the people on your team that you are unofficially mentoring, and that’s an example that says those people don’t have any useful info to share.

      1. Always Confused*

        Actually, the two people are new, so they spend a lot of time talking to each other or asking my supervisor basic questions. I’ve been around for a long time, so when I have a question, it’s going to be something pretty oddball or advanced that the two people aren’t going to be able to help with. I’m not trying to ignore them on purpose or anything, but it seems silly to ask them questions they won’t be able to answer.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I went the opposite way, I pictured Jane and Bob in the office complaining that you never ask them questions, “What are we chopped liver?!” So, now your boss wants you to ask them questions so they feel important, too.

      I guess I would ask them a question and then report back to the boss that I have started asking them questions too. I think the way to handle the situation is to just show it’s no skin off your nose to go ask, you don’t mind. It’s amazing how a neutral reaction can just bring everything down to a non-issue.

      1. Artemesia*

        This is what I assumed. A couple of dingbats have whined and your boss is trying to fix it by hassling you.

      2. Always Confused*

        I hadn’t considered someone might be miffed to not be getting attention/questions. Seems like it’d be better to not get questions so you could focus on working.

  130. Safe Plum*

    I have been at my job for six months, and always seems to get my job done within the 9 to 5 time frame. So, I leave at 5. But everyone else leaves at 6, including most of my team. They snark at me when I leave at 5. My supervisor comes and goes as he pleases, and doesn’t notice that I leave at 5. I know I should only care about what my boss thinks, but having my coworkers, especially on my team, is making work less enjoyable. Any advice? Thanks.

    1. Lillian McGee*

      Well, you’ve only been there for six months, I’m sure it doesn’t feel good to them that the newbie “gets” to leave before they do. Even if nothing is stopping them from doing the same thing. Have you asked them if things are coming up after you leave that they needed you for?

      Maybe check with your boss too. Say people seem to be upset that you leave at 5, but you wouldn’t leave if your work was not done and is there something you should be doing differently?

    2. Cat Mechanic*

      It’s possible you are just better at time-management than they are. Or they were once like you and got sheep mentality and can’t get out of it. I can’t imagine why anyone would throw snark at a co-worker like this. I would play the new-at-my-job card, pay no mind to this and make a change only if your boss says something. There is no need to sit around tapping your pencil until 6 because you are efficient with your time (if that is indeed the case). Set your own bar and see if it sticks.

      1. Artemesia*

        The fact of life though is that impression management is important. So what can the OP do to make clear how productive she is. I once on being assigned a new department and office arranged meetings with clients for the first two months and left my door open so that everyone who walked by my office saw me frequently in conference with clients thus cementing my image as the person who takes care of client issues that we don’t want to deal with. This was entirely calculative. After that I could have ignored clients most of the time and still had cemented a reputation. I didn’t of course, but I didn’t have to put on a show either.

        I have given the example before of my daughter in college being chided for leaving the newspaper office at 8 when poor Suzy was there till 2 am laying out the paper. Daughter had laid out 6 page, poor Suzy laid out 2. My daughter has always been super efficient and productive. My advice to her was to make this clear e.g. sent a note to the editor ‘Just finished laying out 6 of the 8 pages for tomorrow’s edition; Suzy is working on the last 2’. Because many managers only notice butts in seats not productivity.

        How can the OP make clear that she is getting stuff done? And how can she make clear that she is willing to put in time if necessary. Occasionally staying later might help but the real trick is making productivity visible. This sometimes means a little office theater. Reputation is important.

  131. AP*

    My manager is a new to managing, and was formerly a consultant. I have been with the company for less than a year, and I enjoy my team and what I do. My manager is alright, but I’d like better feedback on what I’m doing right and what I’m doing wrong, as well as how to expand my skills.

    Her direction will often be, “Don’t do X”. I do what she asks, but if I follow-up and ask whether her direction is specific to this case or in general, I don’t get an answer. I respect her experience and talent and would really like to learn from her. To that end, I asked whether we could set a half hour aside to talk about a technique she’s really great at. She proceeded to do the work, while not explaining why she does it that way. I’m trying to draw her out, but I’m feeling like I only get feedback when she wants things done differently, and even then it’s almost too specific to be applied as a general procedure. Any advice?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      It sounds as if you’ve already done some good things that should have worked and she’s either not gifted at or interested in teaching. I don’t know what else you can do besides let some time pass and then ask again. Did you try to ask her questions when she was showing but not explaining her technique?

      1. AP*

        I did, but her responses tend to be very situation-specific. She’s really smart and really good at what we do- I would love to understand the “why” behind this stuff! I wonder if I could change the way I’m askimg? Maybe try and verbalize my “why” question more directly?

        1. AnotherFed*

          It sounds like she’s willing to answer questions, so maybe she’s just not sure what you don’t understand – people who are coming in from consulting jobs where they’re the experts aren’t always good at knowing what a newer person does and doesn’t know, and they’re also pretty trained to only answer exactly the question asked and not confuse the customer with detail that isn’t relevant to the specific situation. Are you asking the broader questions like why do X here, but Y there, and neither in situation 3 type questions? Going back for feedback about why she’s made particular corrections if you don’t understand?

          1. AP*

            This is really good insight, thank you! Looking at it objectively, I think I may just have to ask a lot more questions than I’m used to asking. I feel like I’m being an irritant asking for that level of detail, but I want that level of detail! I tend to ask the “why” and when she doesn’t explain, I wander off and try and figure it out myself. Which has always treated me well in life, but a lot of the things she knows are really expert-level type things that it’s kind of hard to just Google and learn on the fly.

  132. Aussie Teacher*

    My good boss wants to add me on Facebook. I’ve accepted friend requests from two people in my office (one admin and one colleague) but should I accept from my boss? The other issue is that I wouldn’t accept a request from my other colleague or her husband (my other boss)…this could get awkward.
    My FB is friends only but I don’t post anything controversial or political etc, so I’m not really worried about that. It’s more the blurring of professional lines by accepting my boss on FB…

    1. Cat Mechanic*

      For me, no bosses until after I’ve left the job. Even the bosses I’ve absolutely loved during the job.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Eh, it gets awkward doesn’t it?

      I don’t think a boss should ever friend request you. I accept friend requests from people who work for me, but I don’t send them.

      If you turned down your other boss then I’d say to good boss, “Listen, I turned down a friend request from Fred and it would just be too awkward if accepted one from you, is that okay with you?” << the last part said assuming that she'll be all "no no don't worry about it", just politeness.

      That's what I'd do.

      1. Artemesia*

        This is one where a ‘policy’ helps. ‘Oh I really keep my social life separate from my work life and so don’t have friends on facebook from the office.’ It works for sales parties too. ‘Oh I never go to sales parties.’ Eventually people don’t ask.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I’m not you, but I would probably not even have accepted the requests from those other two people in your office. But, no, you definitely should not accept your boss’s friend request, even if you don’t post anything controversial or political. It’s just good to have some boundaries and distance.

  133. Fork*

    I’ve been working on a career change for a while now, and I’m at a fork in the road.

    I have been working on gaining skills towards landing a sys admin or net admin position as my overall career goal. However, an opportunity has come up that would lead down the programming track. I’m not opposed to programming, but I only know HTML/CSS and a few snippets of JavaScript. I am really enjoying what I know about sys/net administration, but this programming opportunity is nothing to sneeze at. I can’t really imagine how it could be better than it is.

    The programming thing is not a guarantee at all, but I would be making a significant, years-long commitment if it was offered to me. I initially steered clear of programming because I was concerned about math requirements (I make stupid mistakes if I’m not super careful, but I can do math) and confusion about the various languages. I dont really know where to start or what to learn, though I hear that people self-teach and land incredible jobs. I don’t know anyone who works as a programmer either to get a feel for it. I have way more familiarity with help desk-type work since I’ve been doing that for several years now.

    So I guess my question is, what is it like to be a programmer? I become demotivated and cynical when I don’t feel like I’m progressing with learning new skills or taking on tougher tasks. I love a daily routine, but I also like to learn new things within that construct. I don’t want to spend 20 years unjamming the same printer or writing the same type of code over and over again. I just like coming in and getting my cup of coffee before sitting down at my desk, if that makes sense.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      N.B. Take this with a grain of salt, because I never got a degree in computer science, and I’ve never officially held a position whose primary responsibility is writing code.

      Although I don’t think programming is the Holy Grail, I do think, based on what you’ve written, that this could be a good move for you. You will learn a lot, and you’ll gain a new set of frustrations that has nothing to do with fixing computers.

      That said, what’s the worst that could happen? You learn some more languages, decide you hate programming, and go back to sys admin’ing? I’ve dabbled in a bit of programming (mainly around web interfaces for relational databases for small orgs), and I mainly do sys admin’ing now, and a lot of sys admin’ing is essentially programming… or at least a ton of scripting.

      Take a look at Greg Neagle, for example—author of Munki (and a whole host of other sys admin tools), systems engineer at Disney. In theory, his day job is managing computer deployments for Disney. But he spends a lot of time speaking at conferences, updating code, helping new users on mailing lists, patching code. He does a lot of programming (mainly in Python, but also some other stuff).

      I’m not quite as advanced as Neagle (not by a long shot), but I’ve written some Python and bash scripts, created Launch Daemons, tweaked some PHP reports, and that’s all under the umbrella of my sys admin’ing. Yes, I have the occasional printer issue come up, but even scripting some CUPS stuff can be fun, too… sort of.

      So even if you go programmer and then go back, your programming will definitely come in handy. I say go for it!

      1. Fork*

        Thank you for your awesome response! It is exactly what I was looking for. I think I will go for it then, since, worst case scenario, it will just make me a more rounded sys admin!

    2. Schmitt*

      Especially for web programming, you don’t need super-crazy math skills. What’s important is:

      a) don’t work for the financial industry writing bank software ;)
      b) develop a spidey-sense of “is this result somewhere near where it should be” – if 4 x 4 turns out 400 then something is clearly wrong and I don’t need to know what 4 x 4 is to realize that
      c) ask for someone to double check your logic when you are doing math-y things.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, you don’t have to be good at arithmetic (that’s what the program does)—just logic.

  134. Possible weirdo.*

    I am a relatively new employee in an office where most of the women are around the same age. And apparently we’ve all got the same basic taste in clothes. In the past week I have twice worn pretty much the same outfit as two different work superiors. Monday, for instance, I wore black ankle pants with a black and white gingham shirt and bright blue flats. My boss was wearing the same shirt, similar pants, and the same shoes in red. Then on Wednesday, the head of another department was wearing a white tie-neck blouse and wine-colored trousers. I was wearing the same blouse with a wine-colored skirt. This sort of thing has happened maybe five or six times each of the two months I’ve been here. I get a lot of “ooh, you’ve dressed like The Boss. Cute!” I’m beginning to feel like a weirdo. Do you think keeping, say, a cardigan around to change up my matching outfits would de-weird the situation? Or just make me seem more weird?

    (In case you can’t tell, I’m getting super neurotic about the whole thing)

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      This happens to us all the time. We yell “drill team!” when we see somebody else in the same uniform.

      It’s NBD. But if a cardigan makes you feel better, why not? It’s not weird to put on a cardigan.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      This happens to me, too, only I’m usually twinsies with a man. I wear a lot of plain button downs (white, blue, blue & white stripes, etc.). I should avoid the team polo on jeans Fridays, but I don’t.

      I wouldn’t worry about it. Y’all seem to have good taste.

    3. Kate*

      You could brush these comments off with a “how must both have great taste” and move on. If anyone is having a go at you for this remember pretty much everyone has had someone wear the same thing as them and probably been a little embarrassed about it so no one would be intentionally rude on this note. If people are suggesting you are intentionally are copying the boss (which assuming you aren’t) this is a bit of an odd thing to say.

      If you know you have exact doubles of clothing with the boss (e.g. same brand, colour etc) then you could put these items aside and not wear them to work unless you know the boss won’t be around (for example when they are on leave/training).

      If a cardigan gives you confidence wear it. No one will bat an eyelid about you wearing one. Most people will just assume you are a bit cold!

      On I side note, office attire is often pretty generic and people end up almost matching. I remember we had a day where almost my entire team (10 people) was wearing black pants and a blue striped shirt. We all laughed and declared it “blue stripy shirt day” and now it is remembered fondly.

    4. hermit crab*

      At my first professional job, it quickly became clear that my manager (a linebacker-looking guy easily twice my size) and I both had a collection of khakis and brightly colored polo shirts. Occasionally purple day fell on the same day. Or orange day, or teal day …

      Anyway, I think it’s only weird if it makes you feel weird. If wearing a cardigan makes you feel less weird, then go for it!

  135. Kit*

    I’m not sure if I need advice or need to vent or both.

    The company I work at tries really hard to be friendly and diverse and agile and supportive, but it has some really glaring problems that are getting to me. Mostly it’s a lack of unprofessionalism.

    There have been many times in the 18 months I’ve been there where my (mostly younger) colleagues have got drunk at work gatherings and missed the start of their shift the next day. Once, famously 2/4 team members overslept and didn’t come in until midday when they should have arrived at nine. Beyond a slap on the wrist, nothing happened. Another time, my colleague in another office emailed me 30 minutes after he was supposed to meet with me over video chat to tell me he was too hungover to talk.

    In the last two weeks, my manager (who is also based in another office) has asked me if I don’t mind calling him on his mobile for the first 20 minutes of our scheduled meeting so he can run and get a latte before getting to the office. Once I humoured him and had to try to talk through technical documentation whilst he was ordering at Starbucks. The last time he suggested this, I said it was hard to get what needed to be done over the phone, so I’d rather delay the meeting. We started 30 minutes late.

    Does anyone have any strategies to combat this behaviour without getting the reputation of having a killjoy (sadly a genuine concern), both with my manager and my peers?

    1. Colette*

      What’s the impact? Particularly with the coworkers, it sounds annoying, but did it actually affect your job in any way?

      How is your manager otherwise? I once had a manager who constantly checked her phone while we talked – but she was great in every other way, so although it was annoying, I let it go.

      1. Kit*

        Because of the time difference between offices, the meetings that get skipped or started late are already after-hours for me and I don’t get overtime. For meetings during the working day, it’s more the case that either a) I really needed to discuss something with them because I am blocked on a project, so cancelling a meeting prevents me from getting work done or b) I waste time I could have spent on one of my projects waiting around for them.

        People not turning up because they’re hungover tends to give me extra work, but like I say in a comment below, I think it’s starting to bug me so much because I try to be professional and others don’t seem to, but there are no consequences either way.

        My manager is super nice, very supportive and has tons of experience as an individual contributor. As a manager, though, he’s very hectic and I often find myself managing him a bit in order to get work done. It’s kind of frustrating.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Does it matter that your coworkers miss work because they are hungover or because they are ill? Honestly, if your coworkers use a their PTO on hangovers, that’s their problem. It might be irritating that its self-inflicted, but unless it means you have extra work, so what? If it does mean more work for you or impediments to getting something done, then bring that up with your manager as the problem.

      1. Kit*

        Yes, it does give me extra work – I should have clarified that part :) But I suppose it also makes me wonder why I try to model good professional behaviour if other people do not and there are no consequences, if that makes sense?

        1. AnotherFed*

          It makes sense, but it’s management’s job to decide what level of professionalism to enforce or not. I really, really get that it’s frustrating and it makes everyone there seem like immature frat boys, but I don’t think the culture is something that can be changed.

          Now, the effects on you – more work, wasted time waiting for a manager, having to cover for absent coworkers, etc. – is something you can bring up with some hope of change. Be prepared to keep the conversation about the effects on your work and workload, and propose some solutions that will minimize the effects or allow your group to tolerate absences more easily. For example, could you move your regular check ins with your manager to 10AM, after he’s staggered in with his latte? Could some of the work be moved off to a temp or PT worker who only worked mornings, especially if there is butt-in-chair required work like answering phones, checking in visitors, or doing some of the less technical aspects of your job?

          1. Kit*

            Thank you for the suggestions! Keeping things matter-of-fact and focussing on the impact definitely sounds like the way to go.

    3. Observer*

      Two things:

      As mentioned, bring up the issues that affect your ability to get your job done. Not “Joe and Jane got drunk at a work party and that’s really unprofessional, and it stinks that they come in late the net day.” But “the last time we had a work party, Joe and Jane didn’t show up till noon the next day which kept me from getting work done on Project X”

      Also, keep your eyes open, and see what happens to your coworkers and to your career at this place. Sure, they didn’t get punished, but are they getting promoted? Are you getting promoted, raises and / or good opportunities? If the answer to the first question is yes, and the second is no, then you start looking for a new job. “I’m looking for better growth potential” is 100% accurate here.

  136. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I learned this week that there are people on my team and in my office who completely support me and want to make my life easier. I return the sentiment, but I’m the senior person and I value my team. Some stuff went down this week that made me realize how much they respect and like me, and it’s unbelievably humbling. I also learned this week that my boss has very high expectations of me but he also respects my opinions and listens to my feedback and when I screw up, he’s still got my back.

    The job ain’t perfect, but it’s been a good week for professional relationships. Kinda sorta makes up for the fact that I’ll be working practically all weekend, but… eh.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        When the analyst on my team said to me, “I will be around later if you need me. I want to make sure your weekend is as low-stress as possible,” I nearly burst into tears.

  137. Doriana Gray*

    This week has been crazy and I’m sure my life is about to get even more insane.

    So the job I phone screened for last Friday and thought I wasn’t getting an in-person interview because I don’t have advanced Excel skills? Yeah – the recruiter contacted me a day earlier than she said she was going to (Tuesday) and said the hiring manager wanted to meet me. We set up an interview for Monday at 3:30.

    Well, the internal position I interviewed for was offered to someone else (Tuesday). I wasn’t bummed because I knew my manager had spoken to the hiring manager about it before and told him that I said I didn’t think I could do the job (I never said that either so I was stunned when she actually admitted this duplicitous shit to my face). Then she had the nerve to give me a card saying that I’m great and don’t ever forget it and “shoot for the stars.” No, but I’d shoot her instead. (I kid…sorta.)

    I told my former manager at this same company about what happened in my current division and about my interview (Wednesday). Naturally, she doesn’t want me to leave the company because a) she hired me into it and invested a lot of time and money into training me and b) she thinks I’m too good at what I do to let one person run me out of a company that has 30 some odd divisions in it not including shared services and operations groups. She told me she understands why I’d want to go, but she thinks it’s short sighted because she said, “People here love you. You just have to be patient and look for other opportunities with other groups here.” I told her I was interested in applying for an open position with another division that’s currently floating around the company, but I said I’d wait to email the hiring manager (who’s also the AVP) since I just got rejected from the position in my division. She said that was crazy talk and to ask him for coffee that day so I did before leaving for the day.

    The AVP emailed back and said he’d love to have coffee with me and discuss the role (Thursday morning). We pick a time in the afternoon because his morning was booked. Then he IMs me a couple minutes later and asks if I’d go to lunch with him and the VP instead. Of course I’m all over that and we go and have a nice discussion about the position. They tell me they’d love to have me come work for them thanks to all my designations (and a good word from my former manager whom everyone in this company respects immensely) and the fact that I have three years of prior experience in their industry. The VP asks what my current salary and job grade is, so I tell them. VP tells me he’ll run some numbers when he comes back from vacation the week of the 30th to see if they can bring me on at a level that I’m comfortable with. I go back to my desk and write them both handwritten thank you notes on personalized stationary I received when I started at the company (not everybody has this). I email the recruiter at the external company asking for a reschedule for the week of the 30th, my thought process being, if by some small miracle I went to this interview, wowed the manager and got an offer while I hadn’t heard back from the internal company because the VP’s on vacation, I didn’t want to have to make a quick decision (assuming they wouldn’t give me a week or two to decide).

    Well, I get a call from the hiring manager/AVP of the internal division this morning stating he asked HR for my last performance review, but they said they couldn’t give it to then because I hadn’t officially applied yet. So he called me and asked if I had a copy of it. I sent him the review, plus my résumé, and thought nothing of it. He calls me back a half hour later and said they’d like to bring me on two pay grades above where I currently am with a title bump to boot and a 10% raise, which would have me making more than 75% of what people with my experience level make in this industry according to Payscale. I told him I’m so in for this, and he was thrilled – he said he and the VP are looking for me to start the first of the year (they’re hiring for two more positions, and they’re at the beginning of the process for one of those positions, and they want all the newbs to start at the same time).

    I’m applying for the job Monday, but my manager is gonna be pissed. I am not looking forward to her passive aggressive bullshit for the next few weeks. She made my life a living hell when I applied internally, so I know she’s going to lose her mind.

    My thing is, I think I need to cancel the interview I set up for Monday with the other company. I was debating about whether or not I should since nothing has been signed, but I told both the AVP and VP about this interview and said I know they can’t guarantee anything right now, but I don’t want to waste anyone’s time if I’m going to end up coming to work for them. A couple hours later, the AVP responded to my email cc’ing the VP that he can’t tell me not to interview with this other place, but he can say that they’re excited and can’t wait for me to apply officially through HR so they can get started on getting me in their division.

    So should I cancel this interview? My gut is telling me yes because it’s not fair to waste that other hiring managers time when I know I’m making an internal move. But again – nothing has been made official through HR. And then the more I thought about this other opportunity, the more I wondered if I truly wanted it or if I just applied because the recruiter asked me to and I’d been having a pretty unsuccessful two month external job search so it felt good to finally receive some interest. I don’t want to take another job out of desperation. I know what I’d be walking into in this other division (my friend works there so she tells me the good, the bad, and the straight up ugly). This is so hard….

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If the internal move falls through, will you be kicking yourself for canceling this interview? I think you would — and if so, that means you need to keep it.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        If the internal move falls through, yeah, I’d be upset because then that would mean I’d be stuck in my current position until who knows when and having to continue suffering my dreadful boss. But then that gets back to what I said before – I think I may be seeing this job as a way out of a crap situation, and maybe I’m not actually into the job itself, which could mean ending up in yet another crap position/company culture because I made an emotional decision instead of a logical one.

        But say I do go through with the interview and get offered a job sometime next week (I don’t know their hiring timeline for sure since they’re hiring multiple people for this role, but let’s go with this for strategy’s sake) – do I accept? And then if I do, but the internal move to this division goes through just fine (they just did this exact same thing with another guy I know four months ago), do I then contact the external position and rescind my acceptance? The rescission would most likely occur when I’d be poised to start the external job given a two week notice period after acceptance.

        1. AnotherFed*

          Part of the interview process is also you deciding whether you like the new job and company, not just them deciding whether they like you. An interview isn’t a commitment to accept a job offer if they even give you one, so you’re putting the cart before the horse a little.

          Personally, I’d take the interview, and use it to ask questions about the job and company that will hep you understand whether you’re trading the devil you know for a different devil just because he’s different and not because he’s better.

          If you do get a job offer, ask them for time to think about it (they should at least give you a day or two), and if you’re still not sure, talk to someone you trust at your current company (maybe your former boss, if you have that kind of relationship) and get their take on whether your current boss is escapable or not within your company given her sabotaging behavior, and how long that might take. Also consider your company’s reputation for executing reorganization like this – do they tend to do it when they say they will, or are there always delays of some sort? how much weight does this AVP have if your manager makes a stink?

          1. Doriana Gray*

            It’s not really a reorg – each division really is it’s own company so, really, my manager has no sway with these people (the AVP didn’t even know who she was, that’s how siloed some of these divisions are). And they recently promoted and hired on another employee from another division four months ago. I had a coffee meet with him Friday, and he said they moved pretty quickly with the hiring process (like two weeks) and he didn’t even have a possible external opportunity lined up.

            I spoke to my former manager about it today, and she said both the AVP and VP told her they loved me and they’re working with HR to make this transition as smooth as possible given the upcoming holidays. My former manager has pretty much told me the internal move is a done deal (she’s placed four of her former employees in this division, and two more of her former employees who went to other divisions initially now work there), but if I really am interested in leaving the industry altogether, then the external opportunity might be a good one (she knows the company and industry well because her friend’s husband just left there).

            None of this helps though! I know I’m probably looking for a right answer that doesn’t exist, but I seriously don’t trust my judgment about these sorts of things anymore. I chose to go where I’m currently working because the alternative didn’t feel right, and the place I’m in turned out to be a nightmare. I just wish someone else could make this decision for me.

    3. Artemesia*

      You move straight ahead until you have an actual offer; there are so many ways this sort of thing can go south. It is normal to be interviewing on several fronts, so if you have to pull out midstream on the other company that is not remarkable (this is not a ‘counter offer’ situation, which is to be avoided, but simply that you are applying for more than one job at once.

      Don’t count chickens ever. We once went to a social event for a firm my husband had been asked to join and found out there when no one would meet our eyes that yes, the offer had fallen through for some internal reason of theirs. That was fun. When they tell you ‘of course we can’t tell you to withdraw from the other interview’, they are giving you important information. It is not a done deal till it is a done deal.

      Hope all goes well and you can watch your current boss squirm.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        So the consensus is to go to the external interview – I’ve decided to do just that.

        Thanks everyone!

  138. Regina 2*

    If you’re an exempt employee who took a vacation, and now find you’ll be working 1-2 hours a day for at least 3 days of vacation (which you submitted vacation time for) is there any point in arguing those as work days? Since technically, if you work at all a day as an exempt employee, it counts as a day worked?

    I’ve gotten screwed on every single vacation I’ve taken at this company, having had to check-in. It irritates me, but no one else can do my job, so I suck it up and do it. I really wish I didn’t have to give up vacation time for it, because I’m one of those people who if I even have to think about work for a minute, feel like it’s infringing on my personal time.

    Everyone works on vacation here, so it’s like a culture thing I can’t get over. Just wondering what others might have done and if there’s any hope.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Well, since I’m a consultant and have to bill my client under different charge codes for different tasks, I’d be billing an hour or two a day for those days even just for checking email. And so I’d only use 6-7 hours of leave per vacation day. Can you do that, or is your vacation only in days?

    2. Colette*

      If it were an unusual situation, I think you could ask to be charged X-1 vacation days, but since it’s the norm, I suspect you just have to live with it.

    3. Graciosa*

      I would absolutely count up the time spent working and not consider this part of my vacation, even if this is part of the company culture. Cultures are created by the collective actions of a lot of individuals – but they can be changed the same way, and you can participate in changing it.

      I think often people assume everyone else is fine with giving up taking a true no-work-of-any-kind vacation so each person suffers in silence. If you can find a friendly co-worker with similar views, you may be able to volunteer to back each other up so you can both take vacation.

      This also means having a discussion with your boss about the longer term actions needed to ensure you can take all your vacation uninterrupted in the future. The professional way to handle the discussion is to focus on the importance of cross-training to ensure business continuity and skill development to create a flexible work force. If you are the only person who can do your job, the company has a problem because it’s going to stop operating if you fall ill, get caught in bad weather without access to business communications (or get sick of never having vacation and quit, but this may not be your first argument when speaking to your boss).

      In this discussion, you nobly identify the issue and the solution (you volunteer to train a backup and possibly also to learn to backup a co-worker with a similar issue) which will save the company.

      The fact that it may save future vacations is just a side-effect.

      Good luck.

  139. grad time!*

    I have just finished my degree and my university hosts an industry night in December for students in my course to meet and network with industry.

    Do you have any tips for engaging with industry as a new grad? Getting into my chosen (small) industry is important to me, so I’m feeling nervous and not very confident. Should my conversation with industry reps be more about what i’ve achieved (at uni doing the degree, my professional work experience), or does this sound too salesy? Should i treat networking more like informational interviews and ask questions about their organisations, their positions, what they recommend for people looking to get into the field, etc? It seems hard to stand out amongst all the other grads and i’m not entirely sure what i should aim to achieve in attending the night.

    Also, what are your thoughts on having some basic business cards printed? With my name, phone number and email on one side? What about with a few dot points on the back with my degree name, my professional interests (for example, i would like to step into roles relating to sponsorship/funding, communications/marketing or to grow leadership skills, perhaps managing volunteers)? I already have business cards for my current workplace – but that’s not in the same industry and it’s not my personal email, it’s my work email – so that doesn’t make sense to hand them out.

    One last question about the business cards – my first and surnames are not pronounced easily by english speakers. Would it be a reasonable idea to have my name printed and then in wee letters have it written phonetically? In International phonetic alphabet, like at the start of Wiki articles?

    1. Kate*

      I suggest you do some research, find out about the companies that will be there and which ones are the most interesting to you. This will allow you to ask questions on the night that can’t be answered by simply looking on the company website (e.g. where is the office, do you do this kind of teapot design – these questions are a bit irritating do your reasearch!). Ask intelegent questions such as what kind of people excel at your company? What qualities make a candidate stand out. If you really must you could be sales in your questions e.g. I have a lot of experience in designing teapot handles, would teapot handle design experience be beneficial at your company? However asking good questions is likely to help you regardless.

      Ive been to a few fairs and there is nothing more annoying than a sales pitch when it isn’t wanted so be wary of this. I went as a recent person in the role to answer questions about the day to day work. I had no say in the hiring process whatsoever, and I often told people this when they started a sales pitch. Some people however continued and still tried to give me resumes etc. The moral of this story is listen to what the rep is telling you. Don’t be pushy or continue on if politely advised otherwise.

      Remember if their not accepting applications on the night this a great chance to learn about the companies so if you make it to an interview you can answer questions such as “why do you want to work here” really really easily!! (and to decide if you even want to work there!)

  140. Oops*

    As I was about to leave work today, I realized that I forgot to give some coworkers *important* feedback on students they’re teaching for something that was due TODAY! I managed to scramble and was able to give them decent feedback, but oh my god, I feel like an absolute moron. I actually thought I had more time, because no one ever told me there was a deadline, until I was chatting to another coworker about it.

    I have such a fear of getting fired and, ugh, mistakes like this add to that anxiety so much! God, I probably won’t get fired… right??

    1. Colette*

      It doesn’t sound like it was a big deal. Learn from it (perhaps about making sure you ask if you’re not given a deadline) and let it go otherwise.

    2. Mirilla*

      If you didn’t know when the deadline was, how could you have known it was today? I wouldn’t stress over it. Sounds like you have it covered now! The fact that you even are worried over it tells me that you are responsible.

  141. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Today I had a 1:1 with my boss. In it, she told me that even though she had never witnessed it herself and didn’t believe it to be true, on two occasions over the seven months I’ve worked there, a co-worker (the same one, not multiple ones) reported that I had alcohol on my breath during the workday. I’m absolutely gobsmacked!

    While it’s true I like to have a couple of glasses of wine most evenings, I’m in bed by midnight and certainly brush my teeth in the morning. I get along really well with everyone on my team and am considered a very high performer at a job that would be very difficult to do while impaired, so I’m shocked that anyone would think I was coming to work drunk. Is it possible that someone is mistaking the smell of my mouthwash for whisky? At work my co-workers talk about drinking their their spare time frequently and I’ve always joined in, but my manager suggested that maybe I shouldn’t as it could be fueling this person’s accusations that I’m a drunk. We don’t have a back-stabby culture, so I have to think that whoever is making the accusation honestly believes it’s true.

    1. Colette*

      Here’s what I’d do:
      – make sure I told my manager how stunned I was by the comment, and confirm that it wasn’t true.
      – ask her to let me know immediately if the coworker noticed it again, so that she can tell me whether she noticed the same thing
      – honestly evaluate whether it’s real two glasses of wine. If it’s more, it’s possible it’s not actually out of your system by morning.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        Oh yes, I immediately expressed shock and assured her that I’ve never in my entire career come into work under the influence. I mean, I’m talking 2-3 glasses of wine from 6pm to 11pm, and I don’t start work until 8am. I’m very punctual and have only been late once since starting, and I’ve never called in sick.

        My manager said she’s spoken to me soon after the accusations and smelled nothing notable on my breath. She seems to be more concerned about how the rumor might affect me if co-worker is spreading this around to others. Which is why she’s suggested I stop talking about drinking for the most part, even when my other co-workers are.

        Another thing that puzzles me is that my former workplace was very strict, and I can’t imagine I wouldn’t have been called on the carpet for coming in smelling like wine occasionally. I worked there for 5 years under similar habits, and my boss actively looked for things to berate me about no matter how minor (from talking a little to loud to not touch typing when it wasn’t part of the job). I’d think she would have been all over something like alcohol on my breath.

        1. Colette*

          It sounds like it’s not based on reality, which is both good and bad. I agree cutting down on drinking talk is a good idea (and honestly, too much of that talk wouldn’t do you many favors regardless). I wonder if it’s something else (shampoo? Laundry soap?) since mouthwash doesn’t tend to linger for hours.

          Does the coworker who complained join in the drinking talk? It could be that’s she’s uncomfortable and her imagination is running away with her.

          2. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

            I’m not sure who the co-worker is, but I only know of one who abstains (because even one drink makes her ill) and it could be her, I guess. I’m definitely going to stop actively chiming in when the drinking talk starts in our bullpen again.

        2. Nicole*

          I’m not sure I like how your manager is making this all your problem by suggesting cutting back on the alcohol talk. Not that it’s a bad suggestion, but what are they doing about the false accusations? If they are truly worried about your reputation then they should be going back to the person who reported this and letting them know they didn’t notice what they did and letting them know they won’t tolerate any gossip. For all we know this other person IS trying to undermine for who knows what reasons, but since you’ve done nothing wrong your manager needs to nip this in the bud with your coworker. If I’m way off base or they already did that but you just didn’t mention it then disregard. It just seems a little weird to me that the responsibility to “fix this” falls squarely on you.

          1. Artemesia*

            Since it would seem the OP is not falling down drunk on the job, I would assume bad intentions from this ‘co-worker’ who is repeatedly suggesting to management that she is drinking on the job. Well intentioned don’t report this if they don’t see evidence of drunk behavior (unless perhsp the person being reported on is flying a plane or driving a schoolbus.) This person should be assumed to be an underminer and the boss should be strongly taxed with dealing with the gossip. Since the boss has checked and not noticed this ‘alcohol on the breath’ asking the OP to alter her behavior is not helpful; telling the gossip to shut up may help.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I hate saying this but from my experience apparently some people do smell like alcohol even if it is only a couple of drinks and then off to bed. I don’t know, maybe body chemistry?

      But yes, cologne and mouthwash are good suspects also.

  142. Aloe Vera*

    I currently manage two people and am looking for a new gig, so I’m updating my resume. Is saying “Lead a three-person team” accurate? Or does that sound like I manage three people?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, you never put yourself in the head count. So you have a two person team that you lead.

  143. Kate*

    I recently applied online to a very large company. The role sounds great so after the auto email I reached out to someone in my network who worked there with the hope of getting an interview. I saw this person on Thursday night and explained my situation. Friday I was on the phone to the companies recruiter and now I have an interview on Monday morning (go networking!).

    The issue is I have a Indian friend who has their wedding this weekend and I have Henna on my hands as I really wasn’t expecting things to move so fast! It’s on the palms of my hands but still very noticeable if say I show my palm. The reason I can interview so soon so easily is that I had taken some time of early next week (when the interview is to be held) as there is a lot of out of town friends visiting for the wedding with which I wanted to spend time. So realistically with me not expecting to be at work, the Henna wasn’t going to be an issue. From a bit of a web search, no there isn’t anything I can do to get it off.

    How would you approach this? Do you think it will impact my chances for a job? Should I mention it? Mention I am on leave today anyway? or just ignore it?

    Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      Do you mean like in mehndi designs? I think a lot of people will recognize it for what it is, and you can just say “Sorry, that’s from a friend’s wedding this weekend” when you shake hands.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Have you tried peppermint soap and a scrub brush? Work it in, the oils in the soap might lift it up and off. I have successfully used peppermint soap where nothing else would work.

      1. Kate*

        Yes its Mehendi I think I’ll just mention the wedding.

        Thanks for the peppermint soap ideas. Still not having much luck. Olive oil has been the best bet so far, but it’s definitely still there!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          OHH, you are making me think. I had some coconut oil here and my friend was using it to get all kinds of goop off his hands. I hope you see this.

  144. Anonymous1*

    Hey, super late, but why not.

    Any advice on what to do you, when you’re the person caught in the middle between The Boss and the departments you serve? The Boss is the hammer coming down to protect me from being torn apart and worked to death, while the departments will have to be changing how they’ve done things for years. This is also a belated result of The Boss laying off an employee, whose responsibilities I absorbed. It’s gonna get uglier than it already is, and, once again, I’m in the middle.

    Advice?

  145. Lizzie*

    So an undergrad at my alma mater that I’m sort of halfway mentoring (long story — her big sister was in a sorority with me, she’s studying what I have my degree in, yada yada) wants to quit her job because some of what they are doing really gets to her, as it goes very much against her personal ethics. What they’re doing is not illegal, but she is increasingly uncomfortable with the way things are happening/run and wants to interview for things to get out. She isn’t, though, because she’s not sure how to explain her departure to the people she is interviewing with in a way that is honest but also not totally disparaging. I’ve never run into this myself and am not really sure how to advise her, although I really do want to give her a jumping-off point because it shows that she’s miserable, although she’s doing her best. How would you handle this if it were you, open-threaders? How do you explain that you’re personally not on the same ethical page as your employer and want to get out?

    1. fposte*

      I think there’s a lot less need to justify changes at jobs during college, even if they’re not on-campus jobs, and in general it’s better to be looking *for* something than running *from* it. Not “They spent a ton of donor money on parties” but “Your organization really honors its service mission, and I wanted to get some experience in that.”

    2. AnotherFed*

      Like fposte, I wouldn’t even bring up why she’s leaving the current place, frame it as about the new place she wants to work. Maybe she likes the hours better (number or timing), or wants experience in X, Y, Z different things, or thinks the new place will be more aligned with future career goals. During college, no one really expects students to stay at one job the whole time – it’s pretty expected that class schedules and workloads change, people change their mind about what they want to do, and bills still have to get paid.

    1. Yeah Right*

      I’ve been there…it wasn’t the right job for you, though it may have seemed to be at the time. Believe me, there is a better job out there for you and you will find it. I did, even when I wasn’t expecting to. Good luck.

      1. Trixie*

        I know your words are meant kindly but I hate reading more into than it is. Things don’t work out because they don’t work out. It did work out for someone else, as we often like to see here on AAM. But I feel for ya!

  147. Workplace Whoopse*

    Just 5 months into my new job, and I think I have already made a bad impression to my manager. My first bad impression was cc’ing unneccessary department people in an email about modifying a process, which could have caused an office drama.

    After that incident, I made a few more foot-in-the-mouth and workplace dynamics gaffes:

    1) I asked the department director on how to organized data that my manager normally handles. I show this to my manager and she said the arrangement is wrong. But I still proceed to say the department director said the data can be entered as [abc, 123, etc.]. My manager was not happy and said that the department director’s suggestion is wrong because he does not handle her data files. I changed back the data to the way my manager wanted it.

    2) There was an email that was send to me in error. It forwarded it to my manager and she said it might be for XYZ department. I walked over to her office to ask her if I should forward the email to XYZ department. She was not happy with my asking and said that I should just emailed the employee back to tell them they sent the email to the wrong department and have them figure out the right one. Our department was busy at the time and my manager said that we should not do other people’s research for them.

    3) I might have asked her some unneccesary questions such as “how should I proceed if these local staff members still made the same mistake/still doesn’t get it after I explained it to them the second time?” My manager told me to email them once more until they get it. I then email a more lengthy and baby-step email and eventually the staffs got it. Maybe I should not have asked and just email the third time instead.

    I am not a very social/communicate-able person. I do get into gaffes, akward, and humiliating situations often. These quirks/flaws might have also annoyed my co-workers as well. But co-workers don’t affect my manager much. It just adds to my workplace difficulty.

    My department director (my manager’s manager) might have came to the company a little later than my manager. My manager does not seem to like the department director. There are a few occasions when the department director’s advice seemed more loose/nonchalant/less precise. My manager deems the department director to be less experienced. This is my first time in a workplace where this dynamic occurs.

    I don’t think I am going to be considered a “good” employee in my manager’s opinion. Our workplace interaction as gone a bit colder since I first started working there. I believe this impression of me will be hard to salvage based on my manager’s personality.

    How is this going to impact my future career?

    Is there anything I should start doing? I currently do not have a large network in my life.

    Right now in my workplace, I am feeling a little bit hesitant when cc’ing people in emails and answering emails in detail, just to avoid future gaffes.

    1. Xarcady*

      One thing you could try is to ask your manager how she would like you to ask these sorts of questions. Does she want you to come to her office, or email? Also ask her to help you define the boundary of things you can handle on your own, and things she wants you to check with her on.

      For your #1, it looks as if you went over her head to her boss to ask the question. That was probably not the best move. In the future, you should ask your boss questions that directly affect your work.

      1. Workplace Whoopse*

        Hi, Xarcady. I will make the effort to improve my way of asking my manager for advice. Thank you.

        Those mistakes are indeed very bad impressions…..sign :(

        I worked in a compacted office with everyone at busy routines—sometimes very irritating routines. I am not sure if my manager is ever one of those in the mindset of having a meeting with their employee to talk about soft skill issues.

        I am afraid to bring any of those issues up to my manager again, for it might irritate her. I attempt to just silently improve with no mention of my past issues. But I am not sure if that approach would gradually improved my impression.

        I currently do not have anyone to turn to discuss this kind of social/workplace gaffes that I am prone to making. I never talked to my family about what is happening to me, not even when I was a child having school/friend-making troubles. This might upset them. As I mentioned, my network is low, I do not have much peers to discuss this with.

        Maybe I should try to see if there are resources at my school/career center….but I am not sure if those professions would want to hear about these problems…..

    2. AnotherFed*

      It sounds like some of this might just be that you’re new to the workplace. From your description, you’re asking your manager a lot of “What should I do?” questions, but after a couple of months, you should be more at the stage of saying “As a heads up, here is what happened, and here is how I propose handling it. Does that work for you?” Next time you run into something you don’t know how to handle, think about what your manager will probably tell you to do about it (her approach seems to be correct what is incorrect, but don’t overstep what you know for sure), and then tell your manager what you plan to do rather than asking her to solve your problem for you. That will let you get the judgement check you want, but it will also convey that you thought about the situation and have a solution.

    3. Graciosa*

      You should ask the question directly rather than worrying and making assumptions. Actually discussing this with your manager should be at the top of the list.

      Frame this however you think it will work best, but your goal is to acknowledge that your performance has not been flawless (bosses want you to have this self-awareness), explain what you’re doing to address it yourself, and ask your manager for feedback and additional guidance or suggestions.

      Done correctly, this will shift your manager’s thinking from “Doesn’t Workplace Whoopse realize how she’s screwing up?” to “Workplace Whoopse is coachable and making real efforts to improve her performance – how can I help her?” It should also minimize any impact of the events you described on your future career. These kinds of screw ups are totally normal early in your career (if you’re still doing this as a seasoned professional, you’d have a lot more of them, so I’m making assumptions here).

      What is a much bigger issue for your career is the more fundamental one you just skated over – you don’t have much of a network, you assume you’re irritating your co-workers but not worrying about it, and you describe yourself in ways that lead me to conclude that you may be socially awkward.

      If true, this is a huge issue for your future career prospects. It is harder to correct, and will seriously limit how far you can advance.

      Most people (and I include my earlier-self in this) seriously underestimate how important relationships are in moving up. The evaluations are framed as addressing “soft skills” but that’s just the politically correct way of dealing with the fact that humans are social creatures, and they prefer to spend time with people they like.

      There are a few career paths with very minimal social interaction (the genius software engineer who is hidden away somewhere to code without ever attending a meeting) but these are rare and necessarily limited. If you don’t address the social issues, you will need to accept that your career will be limited.

      Addressing the social issues will require a lot of effort on your part, probably with professional assistance (a good counselor may be able to help, or a career coach – but the good ones are expensive). You may be able t get informal guidance from friends or co-workers who have stronger social skills.

      Some people get stuck in some odd thinking about changing behavior. They resist making the effort by attributing any issues to “who they are” as if humans are incapable of change, or as if learning to smile more in the office is violating the integrity of their being on the level of suddenly demanding that they kill puppies. It isn’t.

      Social skills can be learned – and used for good or bad purposes – just like any other skill. If you want to advance further, you will hit a point where they are an essential requirement. Think about this and decide whether the rewards for you are worth the effort.

      Good luck.

      1. Workplace Whoopse*

        Thank you for your advice, Graciosa.

        I have to find a way to make opportunity to learn social skills. It has been a very slow process for me. I tried to go to networking events when I was an undergraduate, but I always ended up with gaffes and being a wallflower. Maybe I should give this another try in another network event….

        1. fposte*

          You can also look at people you know for models. How do your co-workers interact with your manager, and how does that work for them?

          I think you’ve locked yourself into this “never tell anybody what’s going on with you” mindset at home and at work, and even though you’re finding that it doesn’t work so well for you, you’re finding it hard to change from that. But as a manager, I can’t guess what’s going on with you; I may be able to help you if you tell me, but it’s almost impossible for me to assist if I don’t know.

          1. Workplace Whoopse*

            I think I have trouble of breaking bad habits. I have a long history of having a bad habit of doing/saying immature or naive things. Even though I have experience consequences for my actions, I still cannot break it. In my previous work, those issues are not a big deal/I do not deal with them much at all.

            I didn’t tell anybody what is going on with me because I am not sure how they are going to take it. Will there be rumors, further bad impressions, etc.

            My family puts down harshly people who make poor life choices/decisions. I am not sure how they would react if I tell them I did these stupid things at work.

    4. NicoleK*

      I have a coworker with similar challenges. Fortunately for coworker, our boss is conflict avoidant and likely won’t fire her. Boss also seems determined on ensuring that coworker succeeds at the organization. Coworker is working with a consultant, provided by the organization, to develop her soft skills, managerial, and communication skills.

      In my experience, employees with this type of challenges will continue to have issues with coworkers and managers wherever they go. If you’re not comfortable going to your boss, find a consultant or mentor to help you work on reducing gaffes, develop better communication with your boss and colleague, read social cues, and understand workplace norms. Good luck!

  148. Lindsay J*

    Still waiting on background check to complete. It’s been over a month now.

    I’m starting to worry about vacation time at my current job. Vacation time is paid out if I leave before the end of the year. I lose it if I don’t take it by December 31st.

    Obviously taking vacation after I put in my two weeks notice is not okay, right?

    So, should I proceed to put in for my vacation time, acting like I would if I did not have the conditional job offer?

    Should I wait and not put in for it as I’m pretty sure it’s not going to take another 2 weeks to get the offer? (Getting paid out for the vacation would honestly be preferable to using it as money is a little tight and I don’t know when I would get my first check after starting the new job.)

    Put in for it and revoke it if I get the offer?

    Put in for it, take it, and extend my notice period?

    Something else?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      So if you don’t use your vacation time by December 31, you lose it? But if you leave before December 31, you get paid for the unused time?

      When you say “conditional job offer,” did the potentially future employer say “You’re pretty much hired. We just have to do a background check on you, and if you’re cleared, you’re definitely hired”?

      If that’s the case, over a month without hearing anything from them seems a really long time. I would follow up with them to check in if there have been any delays in getting the background search done, because you’re excited to work with them, and you want to be able to give your current employer as much notice as possible if you’re leaving (hopefully both of those things are true).

      If that’s not the case, then I wouldn’t hold your breath. One month with no word means that you didn’t pass your background check or the offer was contingent on more than that… or there was no offer at all.

      1. Lindsay J*

        Yes, I verbally accepted an offer, completed all the new hire paperwork, etc. As soon as the background check is completed I am employed.

        I get updates from them about once a week telling me my background check is still pending. And whenever I contact them they are very responsive in getting back to me. But all they can really tell me re: the background check is that it is going to take however long it takes.

        It’s a long process involving verification of my 10 year job history, FBI fingerprint processing, etc. I feel like mine is taking longer than usual, but I passed one earlier this year so no reason why I shouldn’t pass now. (My last employer hired you and let you work on a conditional basis while waiting to complete the check. I honestly prefer this way – completing it beforehand – that way if something does come up you’re not completely screwed. I’m just impatient and the end of the year is complicating things with stuff like vacation, insurance enrollment, etc.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Is this a security clearance background check? In that case, 1 month isn’t strange, and it could easily be weeks more yet. I’d make plans as if the new job isn’t real until you have a final offer and the background check has cleared, so it sounds like that includes requesting time off.

      You can also contact the company and ask them about where things are in the background check process – they might be able to give you a time estimate, but unless the answer is ‘it just came back this morning and we’re getting the formal offer together now,’ I wouldn’t change my plans over it.

      1. Lindsay J*

        Yeah, it’s not a security clearance, but it’s aviation industry so it’s similar. 10 year employment history, 10 year address history, any gaps must be accounted for. Fingerprints run through the FBI system, etc.

        Yeah, company hasn’t been very helpful with a time estimate.. They’re proactive in that they reach out and update me every week (though the update is pretty much “your background check is still pending,) and are very responsive when I reach out. However when I did try to lightly inquire whether this was normal for a background check in their experience since the length of time (and the fact that I was contacted several times by the background checking company to provide paystubs etc) had me concerned I pretty much got back a boilerplate email saying, [paraphrased] “Since this is a highly regulated industry, these things can take some time. There are many things that need to be verified from difference sources. We’ll keep you posted.”

        I think I am going to put in for and take the vacation time like I would (am kind of looking forward to this vacation anyway) and then if I do get an offer soon just push my start date back so I get my two work weeks in prior to starting.

  149. Mindy*

    Question. Last year the “home office” changed the evaluation forms for all “team members” , CEO to housekeeping, to be identical and each item to be rated 1-4 with 3 as “meeting expectations. Also they were changed from the anniversary date to all being done in Oct. to Dec. We were told that goals were very important and that they could make up to 1/2 of a persons raise. The percentage calculated automatically based on the numbers given. This year we were told that all evaluations had to be completed and turned in in Oct. for a month of review by HR- with adjustments as she deems necessary, and then we would have two weeks in December to give them all. (Note: the larger department managers have 45-90 to do). Goals no longer count and were were told that the average score community wide couldn’t exceed 3.12 and the average raise could not be above 3% (the amount given with 3.0-3.12 average score. Nothing was said about the amount of money there is to work with, obviously a 3.5% raise for a department director costs more than a 3.5% raise for a 1 year housekeeper. Several managers have offered to take a lower raise so that they can give more to their employees but the only way they can do that is to rate themselves lower. Also now, to get a 3 in many areas (meeting expectations) the requirements are for example: “provides exceptional customer service” ;” consistently goes above and beyond job requirements”. So to be average, you have to be exceptional.

    The question is this. How honest about all of this should I be with my employees when I give them their evaluations? I already know that several have been knocked down in some areas to a 1 or 2 by HR. For example 4 absences in a year is now a 1. Completing the required annual online training a day late is also a 1. One incident report is either a 1 or 2 depending on if you missed time or claimed workman comp. or not. And on and on. I don’t want my rock stars to be demotivated. Suggestions?

    1. Observer*

      I don’t know what to say about how honest you should be with your staff. But someone should point out to to HR, that knocking someone down for claiming workers comp could present a legal problem.

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