open thread – January 29-30, 2016

by Alison Green on January 29, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,272 comments }

{ 1,272 comments… read them below }

  1. Pokebunny*

    I’m starting a new round of applications now, and am actually excited about my new, revamped cover letter and resume.

    1) How many bullet points is too many in a resume? I’m a senior about to graduate, and I’ve only had one highly relevant internship/part-time job. However, I also have a ton of responsibilities in that position that is not the norm of an internship, and I have a list of 11 accomplishments under that one job. I can combine a few of them, but I’d still end up with maybe 7 bullet points. Too many?

    2) Should I list my visa status and the fact that I need sponsorship in the resume? On one hand, listing it early saves everyone time, and avoids “bait-and-switch” feelings — some companies just flat-out won’t sponsor even if you are Jesus’s purple unicorn.

    However, another school of thought is that listing it early gives them a reason to say no without getting to know you. The idea is that you should wow them with your qualifications and stellar interview before bringing up the fact that you need sponsorship. It reasons that if you prove yourself to be outstanding, the company would make an exception. In reality, how often does this happen? What are the odds that -I- am sooo outstanding (I’m not) that they would change their mind and say “oh, sure, we’ll drop another $8,000 in legal fees just to hire you, take a chance at the lottery, and assuming you do win it, wait until October for you to start.”?

    Typing that out, I realize that I already know the answer to the question. :'(

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Definitely do not hide the fact that you need sponsorship. Many organizations, especially smaller ones, simply don’t do it because it’s a lot of work, and you will really irk people by springing it on them later in the process. Be up-front about it so you screen out people who won’t sponsor, and are clear with the ones who do what your situation is.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I think as long as what you’re listing as accomplishments is relevant to the job(s) you’re applying for, 7 bullet points from that one job might be okay. As you get more experience, you can always whittle it down to the things you’re most proud of/are most relevant to your career going forward.

      As for the second one, I’d probably put it on the resume. Some employers are just plain unable (or unwilling) to sponsor, and if it’s the second of those circumstances I’d like to know that info up front so you don’t waste any extra time on their application process. I’d mention it in any cover letters too, and that if there are ducks that need to be in a row that you already have them! Good luck :)

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yes, the key for me is relevance. We hire a lot of current students and recent grads, and it does drive me a little nuts when their resumes are in tiny print and still two full pages because they’ve listed 15 bullet points about their barback experience and they’re applying to work with kids with special needs.

        1. Pokebunny*

          Thank you! Yes, it’s relevant experience. I’m applying for junior network admin jobs, and I’m a network admin for my school right now. My resume is only one page, so no worries about two pages of fluff.

    3. Caffeine Free*

      I don’t know what field you are interested in but are there any fellowships in that field and in the country you are applying in? From my experience, many fellowship opportunities (at least in the US) do not restrict the award to citizens or permanent residents. Maybe this would be something to look at to give you more experience. These organizations are well versed in acquiring visas and fellowships can also lead to full-time opportunities. Not sure if this is something that applies to your field but it may be something to consider.

    4. Trill*

      Out of curiosity, are you a student in the USA and looking for work in the USA? And if so, are you eligible for OPT? That would give you the ability to work for a year after you graduate independent of sponsorship by your employer. And it would give your employer time to get to know your work before committing to sponsor you.

      When I was in your situation, I briefly explained my visa situation near the end of my cover letter. I was also lucky that I was mainly looking for jobs with employers who were not subject to the cap (and therefore not subject to an october start).

      1. Pokebunny*

        I’m not eligible for OPT, because I already used it up in my first degree (same level). I am leaving my first degree off my resume too because it’s in a completely different field., therefore irrelevant, and in the past all it did was raise questions about “why are you in school so long and have no relevant experience?”

        I’m also focusing my hunt on cap-exempt employers too, but I shouldn’t ignore the cap-subject ones either. Thanks for the response!

        1. HarryV*

          I should’ve scrolled down more… Best thing to do is look at foreign companies, companies where HQ is outside the US, and have a presence here. They will be familiar with H-1b and sponshorships. Good luck. H-1b and OPT certainly are not the same anymore!

    5. Sunflower*

      Every employment application I’ve filled out that goes through a Taleo like system has asked if I have a visa/need sponsorship. So even if you leave it off your resume, chances are you’ll be asked elsewhere.

      1. Caffeine Free*

        Even when my SO has responded in the online applications that they do not need sponsorship (and it is listed on their resume), they’ve had quite a HR people calling to verify this fact. Sometimes more than once for the same application.

        Be open right away. Wishing you the best of luck.

    6. Julia*

      Oh man, this is such a relevant question for me. My office hires cyclically, almost exclusively college seniors for entry level positions. The schools we hire from have a high proportion of international students, and every year we deal with this issue. The company’s policy is that we don’t sponsor visas, and we make this clear in our job postings.

      What’s frustrating is when we ask students if they’re authorized to work in the US, they answer affirmatively, and we later find out they need sponsorship. It’s a waste of our time and theirs – we could have been interviewing someone we could actually hire, and they could have been interviewing at a firm that would hire them.

      We would not make an exception, for any student – an entry level candidate just could not be that impressive. You’re much better off focusing your energy on interviews that could lead to a job.

      1. Pokebunny*

        Thank you for sharing your experiences. It’s amazing the kind of advice floating out there saying that all I need to do is convince companies that I’m worth sponsoring and to just ignore their will-not-sponsor requirement.

    7. Brett*

      Definitely include your visa status. We have permanently disqualified very good candidates because they failed to reveal their status until the offer stage. (Even if they come back years down the road with permanent residency or citizenship, they cannot be hired.)

      1. HarryV*

        That’s kind a harsh. Did they lie about requiring sponsorship or just didn’t reveal it. If the latter, it’s a complete over-reaction. Not all application will give you the opportunity to state your status.

      3. Brett*

        The application specifically asks if they are eligible to work. They said they were, and when asked again in the interview, said they were. Then when the offer came, said, “oh, btw, I need to be sponsored.”

          1. Pokebunny*

            They could also be doing the “technically not lying” thing, which I think is just a step up from outright lying and equally dishonest. If they are still in school when interviewed, technically they do have authorization (CPT), but only until they graduate, which they’ll then need to transfer to an OPT status or, in my case, a straight-up sponsorship.

            1. Caffeine Free*

              The interviewer if asking if you need sponsorship to legally accept and work the position they are advertising, and the applicants know that. Answering the question as it wasn’t intended does not make a person less dishonest.

              1. Marcela*

                Not really. I had a yearly visa where I could ask for a work permit. Last year I had 11 months where I was able to work with that visa, so when asked I could truthfully say I was legally able to work without the company having to do anything. But at the same time I was going to need sponsorship in less than a year because I could not renew the same visa again, and the visa I was going to get forbade me to work, unless I could get my own H1. Sometimes the answer is not easy and straightforward, but I always said the whole thing. Which is why, I’m sure, I could not get any job.

    8. Champagne_Dreams*

      For what it’s worth, when an employer sponsors a new H1-B that is unsuccessful in the lottery, they get back from the government all the money except fees to their law firm. I advise my hiring managers that a successful H1-B would cost ~$8,000 all in, but if it’s unsuccessful then they’ll only be out around ~$1,500. For some jobs in some geographies, spending that money is a no-brainer.

  2. SweetTeaPots*

    I am going to be an interviewer for the first time on Monday! I’m not entirely sure what to ask, besides the standard tell me about yourself, tell me about something that went wrong/how you addressed it, etc. Also, I am interviewing just as a teammate/associate, not as any type of manager or senior level and I am fairly new myself. Any tips?

    Also, the interviewee is currently at a company that a friend of mine works at. Is it poor form to ask my friend about her? I feel like Alison has answered this, but couldn’t find anything in my search.

    1. plain_jane*

      If your friend is currently at the same employer, I think it’s poor form to let them know that a co-worker is searching.

      1. SweetTeaPots*

        OK this is what I had thought but could have sworn there was just a 5 questions about this, where the advice was that it was OK to contact a friend, but wasn’t positive. Either way I don’t have much ‘skin in the game’ regarding this so I definitely won’t be bringing it up.

    2. lulu*

      Unless you know for a fact that this person is open about their job search in their own company, do not ask your friend about them. This can jeopardize their current position.

    3. CV*

      Think about some of the challenges of the role, and ask about how the candidate has handled similar challenges in the past? I guess that’s similar to tell me about something that went wrong.
      You could think about the personal qualities or specific skills that really make someone in the role shine, and ask about those things.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The Management Center (a client of mine) has an excellent list of sample interview questions that you could look at here. The big thing to know: Don’t spend too much time on fluffy, getting-to-know you stuff. Five minutes on that, tops, and then get into really probing into their past experience and how they operate (the “tell me about a time when…” questions).

      Also, I have a bunch of advice here:
      http://quickbase.intuit.com/blog/5-interview-practices-to-hire-superstars

    5. oldfashionedlovesong*

      I agree with plain_jane. If the candidate hasn’t informed her current company she’s searching for a new job, you might end up torpedoing her current position by speaking to her friend. This could be especially terrible if you don’t end up extending her an offer. Please don’t do this.

    6. Jerzy*

      I’d only ask your friend about the candidate if/when you’re doing reference checks, and even then it might not be a good idea if this person doesn’t want their current employer informed that that are job hunting.

    7. Red Wheel*

      Please avoid: ” Tell me about yourself”. “Tell me about your experience with/in___” is so much more useful and helps the candidate focus on those most useful, relevant information for the interview”

      1. SweetTeaPots*

        I basically want to ask ‘tell me about’ on almost all of the bullet points in the resume because they’re very non-descript. ‘Worked cross functionally’ ‘managed projects’ ‘planned all aspects of campaigns’ – doesn’t seem to be much ‘meat’ to it so I’m struggling with probing questions for sure.

    8. Lee Ann*

      If you’re one of many interviewers for the same person, *please* coordinate the questions. In fact, the other interviewers may have suggestions – “we ask this, you should ask that”. I did one full-day interview where it felt like *all* of them asked about the most challenging problem I’d solved – eventually I had to repeat myself.

      1. SweetTeaPots*

        I wish we had! I received notice mid day Friday and I interview early afternoon today. I hated going on interviews where the same questions are asked over and over, so I’m hoping to come up with some that maybe others didn’t.

        I also don’t know too much about the role she is interviewing for so that makes it hard too, as I’m interviewing more is a potential coworker.

    9. Red Stapler*

      When I did interviews I liked asking about what work accomplishment the candidate was most proud of & the worst, most difficult customer they ever faced and how they resolved the problem. The customer question was relevant because the job was in customer service. I found both questions really told me a lot about how they viewed work and how they dealt with difficult situations.

  3. ElCee*

    I’ve been in my job for 7 years, about 5 happily. My boss is very kind and fair but is extremely wedded to outdated processes, to the point of being a Luddite. I’ve changed and modernized what I can, but it’s not much. So the longer I stay in this position, the less useful my skills become. I’ve been job searching for a while. Between the crowded field and trying to make a slight career change with these outdated skills, it’s been about a year with some interviews but no offers. I’ve taken on some more projects here in the past year but my focus has been more on job searching vs. developing my current position since I just want to leave it. Am I totally screwing myself over by doing this? Should I be doing more at my current job?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I don’t know how busy you are in your current position, but is there any way you can work on developing skills during your free time – whether it’s Excel classes, reading about current industry trends, or whatever is relevant to you?

    2. Dovahkiin*

      Does your work allow you to take some professional development courses? I’ve been in the same boat before – with a steady job, good coworkers, but with management that’s really resistant to new tech/new skills.

      If you can get your work to pay for some courses to take – do that!
      Other things I did that helped me compete once I left that job was I started freelancing/moonlighting, at first working with a mentor who had the skills I wanted to build, and then breaking out on my own. (I had the time and resources to do so after work). Those freelance accomplishments really helped my resume, and even tho I don’t have much time to do it anymore (I got a more challenging job in tech), it’s nice to know that in a pinch I can rely on working for myself for extra income.

      1. ElCee*

        It does! The class has to be related to your current position, so currently I am taking courses in editing. I’d like to move away from editing long-term, but it’s still something. I should try to take classes that are a little more aligned with my long-term goals, I would just have to spin it a little to get my work to pay for it.

        1. Just another HR Pro*

          there is also a site called Coursera. not sure that is EXACTLY what you are looking for, but the courses are free and self-paced. I took a few and for what they are, they are pretty fantastic. And they are typically taught by professors or other people legitimately in the field they are teaching.

    3. Ad Girl*

      Currently in this same position…

      Are you in a field where you could possible freelance to keep up-to-date on skills that you will need for jobs? I am in the process of trying to pick up some freelance jobs to keep my skills up for the type of job I do want.

      1. ElCee*

        This is a good point! My biggest barriers are time and money, but I really just need to MAKE time, and getting some side money for practicing skills helps the money aspect.

        1. Ad Girl*

          Definitely in the same place – I know that making the extra time to freelance will be worth both the skills and the money!

      2. Mandy*

        Curious about how you got started freelancing? I see that Upwork appears to be popular; are there other venues you’ve tried?

        1. Ad Girl*

          I’ve had some luck with elance before – but sometimes you really have to dig to find a good fit. My city has a lot of really great networking events for my field and most of my coworkers that freelance for either PR or advertising have found their clients through that type of situation.

    4. Jerzy*

      Think of doing more work and your current position and gaining more skills/achievements there, the same way people fix up their house when trying to sell it. By being a better employee and enhancing your skills as much as you can, both in and out of work, you’re making yourself more attractive to potential employers, plus, you can help ensure a glowing reference when you do finally leave.

  4. Crispy*

    I’ve posted before but basically my work situation is so bad my dr, psychiatrist, therapist, SO, and family want me to quit immediately. I don’t want to get into the details of my problems but I want to know experiences of people who quit with nothing lined up.

    I do have a friend I could work for part time. It would be barely anything compared to what I make now but my SO makes enough to get us by until I get another job. In my field I also have some freelance opportunities.

    Tell me about what happened if you quit with nothing lined up…

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        You’re in a bad situation either way, if you stay or if you go — so ask yourself which bad situation would you rather deal with, being unemployed or having a job that’s so bad it’s having a negative impact on your health?

          1. Amber T*

            +1!

            I quit my first job after college with nothing lined up. It was awful. The corporate office was a mess, a director who thought rape jokes were funny, a CFO who would yell at me when I would ask when vendors would be getting paid (because I was being yelled at by unpaid vendors) but would also yell at me when clients wouldn’t pay us, 16 different types of mold in our office (2 of which apparently could have condemned the building). The people in my immediate office were wonderful and kept insisting most real jobs weren’t like this. The straw (more like brick) that broke the camel’s back was when my coworker killed himself. (He had a ton of things going on in his personal life too, but work stress played a huge part I’m sure.)

            Putting in my four weeks notice was a fantastic feeling, but not as good as waking up that first Monday and truly realizing I would never have to go back to that office. It took me 2 months to find a new (and my current) job, and wow what a difference. I can’t even put into words how wonderful it feels to NOT hate everything (and breathe clean air, and not have to put up with rape jokes…).

            Crispy, if you’re at your wits end, quit. Mental health is beyond important. As Captain Awkward says, it seems you have a strong Team You. Take advantage of that and take care of yourself!

      2. Glasskey*

        Sometimes the decision is actually the hardest part. Once you make the leap you look back and think “why on Earth did I wait so long?”

    2. AVP*

      Okay I’ve never done this but it sounds like you have quite a chorus of people who want the best for you all telling you to get out. I think if you can afford to, you should go for it. It’s also helpful that you have a part-time option, and possible freelance opportunities, so you’ll have something to put on your resume instead of a gap (less to explain in future interviews).

      Mental and/or physical health is hard to come by and not worth sacrificing for a job!

      1. Persephone*

        Also, see if there are any volunteering opportunities in your area. I agree if you can afford to, get out.

    3. ThatGirl*

      My husband quit a job without anything else lined up because it was becoming soooo bad for his mental health.

      For us, it was hard. It was 2009 and the recession was in full swing, so it took him a long time to get a new job. But I made enough to get us by, and he stepped up and helped out a lot more around the house to take some of the burden off of me. In retrospect I wish he’d talked the decision out with me a little more before doing it, so we could prepare together (maybe sock a little extra into savings) but it sounds like your SO is fully aware of how bad things are.

      If your SO is supportive, and you can get by (and do part time work and freelancing!) I say do it. Just make sure, when you’re interviewing for new jobs, that you know how to answer the question “why did you leave your last job?”

      1. Connie-Lynne*

        Yes! Practice positive responses to this question from a number of different perspectives so you don’t accidentally find yourself trash-talking your former place.

        1. Tris Prior*

          Sounds like the “I had a health issue that is now resolved” response might fit here, too. It is the truth, after all! No reason to tell them that it was the job causing the health issue.

          2. lonepear*

            It is, but really I feel like there’s a way to say that there were problems at your last workplace that you couldn’t resolve and not fall into trash-talking it. (As an interviewer I’d much prefer the more-honest answer, which could lead to interesting conversations about the candidate’s work style and strengths. Yeah, “my boss was an ass and I hate him” is no good, but “management was unresponsive to issues until they became urgent, so that we were always fighting fires and never working on fire prevention” is an interesting answer that I wouldn’t ding someone for.)

      2. TootsNYC*

        For Crispy, she can say, “I quit to go freelance because I wanted greater schedule flexibility at that time (and now I’m looking for something steadier)” or “I quit to explore an interesting opportunity with my friend’s business.” Those are completely legit.

    4. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I quit my last job in a similar situation. My boss was incompetent (I was literally spending hours of my day prepping her for meeting because she did not understand the basic duties of our job), the VP who had promoted her refused to acknowledge she had made a mistake by refusing to hire from the outside.

      I was in a meeting trying to work things out with the VP, HR, and my boss when it clicked, nothing was going to change. I just said something like, “I’m done. I’ll stay on for the next month to wrap up projects, but this my notice.”

      Being not so bright my boss responded with, “We don’t need you. Today’s your last day.” The VP and HR rep looked horrified and thanks to my boss’s comment even with quitting, I got a nice severance package.

      I had enough money to float me for a few months, but I started applying right away to things I was actually interested. Honestly, it felt like a summer vacation…it really helped me reset and gave me time to distance myself from the situation. I think if I had gone directly into a new position I might have carried some of that bad ju-ju with me.

      1. Clever Name*

        Go you! You don’t happen to know if stuff fell apart after you left, or your boss eventually got fired, do you? Because knowing that would be awesome. :)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The VP and HR had enough on the ball to “look horrified”, I’d like to bet it did not go well for that boss later on.

          1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

            It was more horrified in the “we are so going to get sued” way (not that I would have had any grounds).

            But yeah, my boss was transferred and became someone else’s problem.

        2. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

          Unfortunately, a lot of the work fell to my teammates.

          However, my boss was transferred to another area of the University doing a completely different role (not managing anyone) within 4 weeks of my departure. Evidently the VP presented it to the team as “her skills were needed” in the new department.

          On the positive side, evidently for the next few days, department heads and other staff from across our area stopped by my bosses office to complain about my departure and that they didn’t understand how she could let me go!

      2. Mreasy*

        Another vote for quit! I did that with my first job in my (small,competitive) industry due a toxic, paranoid, beyond demanding boss. It all worked out though – because her reputation preceded her. Your mental health is the absolute most important thing right now. Period.

    5. Vee*

      I’ve come super close a few times, but it worked out in a different way… Once I got laid off and the other time, I got a new job in time. (I had a draft resignation letter written for the day I was planning to quit and the new offer came through on the same day).

      Just figure out the financial piece of it and you will be fine. Save your money so you aren’t desperate for a new job right away. Despite the stigma, so many people have been in the same boat and can relate on wanting to, that it should not be taboo.

    6. some1*

      I haven’t done it, but if income is an issue can apply at some temp agencies? Temp agencies don’t have as much work to go around as they did 10-15 years ago, but it’s worth the possibility.

    7. Oreo*

      My husband has BP disorder. His job was totally messing him up and his therapist told him to quit it. He quit – got better in a month and started a part time job that he really loved. It sounds super scary but looking back it was worth it.

    8. Helen*

      I quit without notice and it screwed me for the rest of my life. I don’t have references, it can get out how you quit so no one wants you, the only way to explain it in an interview – and they will know from your resume- you have to lie. Don’t do it.

      2. non-profit manager*

        My husband quit without notice and with nothing lined up. In a tight-knit industry where everyone knows everyone. He had good contacts, but had to wait a couple of months before starting a new position because the company he left was one of the biggest customers of the company he went to. His health, physical and mental, was not worth what he was going through. We managed financially on my earnings. Everything is fine now, and he actually gets along well with his former employer.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        I don’t mean to hijack Crispy’s issue, but I must address this comment.

        No, I don’t believe you are screwed for the rest of your life. That’s defeatist and thinking that will get you nowhere. People quit without notice and they survive and find jobs. Hell, people get FIRED and find new jobs all the time.

        Are you working now? If you even have something part-time (even something shitty, if you’re working hard and doing your best) or you’re volunteering, you can get references right there. If you do end up having to mention it in an interview, you can say “It wasn’t a good fit and unfortunately, I left under less than ideal circumstances. But while there, I learned X and Y and I’m excited to find a position where I can make use of those skills, ” etc. (whatever fits the job you’re interviewing for, since you should be thinking about transferable skills anyway).

        DO NOT LIE ON YOUR RESUME OR IN AN INTERVIEW. If they hire you and anyone finds out you lied, then you can get fired. So don’t. It won’t help you.

        Crispy really does need to quit if the job is jeopardizing her health. No job is worth that kind of sacrifice.

    9. Connie-Lynne*

      I quit with nothing lined up in July. I had started talking to people but really I just had to get outta there.

      As soon as I announced my departure on FB I was getting suggestions to apply at friends’ companies, even though I said I was planning to take the Summer off. That alone made me feel WORLDS more confident.

      In the end I interviewed at about four places and had a job offer from my favorite by mid-September. I started there in October and I’m happy every day, even though the work is harder.

      I say, do it. A shrink can only help you so long if your external situation doesn’t change.

      1. Connie-Lynne*

        I should note: I gave a month’s notice. My boss, one of the few good people in my old place, knew about the awful situation I was in and stated both to me and publicly that he was impressed at the grace with which I handled my departure.

        He quit two months later himself.

    10. Ruth (UK)*

      It can go either way, there will be an element of chance involved as to whether it turns out well for you or not so you need to decide which option is most likely yo be best for you.

      I quit a job with nothing lined up and it worked out great for me. I gave a month’s notice, left knowing I’d have a good reference and ended up in a better job. It took me 2 months to get the new job. There were some points however where I worried that I was on month 2 of several years of unemployment though, etc.

      A close friend of mine did a similar thing and it worked out similarly well for him.

      However, I have another friend who quit with nothing lined up and it took her about 9 months to get her next job, which turned out to be awful and she had a few years of bad situations and temp gigs etc before finally ending up in a more or less ok situation.

      So it worked well for me, but there’s no guarantee of what will happen of you decide to quit with nothing lined up. The best thong you can do if you decide to though, I to give as much notice as you feel you can and leave on the best note possible. An upside of being unemployed is that you can take temp jobs and jobs with immediate start dates since you won’t need to give notice at any current job. Good luck whatever you do!

    11. AndersonDarling*

      When I was in the same situation, I went on medical leave for two weeks and never went back. It was terrifying for about 3 days, but then I knew I did the right thing and I was really hopeful that I would find something better. I had finances to support me for a while and I found a temp job in a month and a permanent job after another month.
      When I interviewed, I was honest about why I left. I know it isn’t recommended, but I explained that I didn’t want to work for a boss that did x, y, and behaved in an abc manner. I used exact examples instead of “my boss was a jerk” and I explained all the steps I took to try to make the situation work. I was lucky to find a place that fostered teamwork and fired backstabbers, so my interview speech fit with their culture.

    12. Kat*

      I quit my job with nothing lined up, due to work-related stress. I had been job hunting but with no luck. Then there was a straw that broke the camel’s back moment with an abusive coworker, and I quit. I gave my required notice period, but I off sick for most of it.

      Yes it was tough being unemployed, especially explaining to people that I left a job without another one to go to. A lot of people (friends and family, I mean) were very vocal in telling me I was making a huge mistake. But I used to go to work and every morning fight the urge to throw myself in front of the bus rather than getting on. But the time I quit, I was definitely suicidal. So I am convinced I made the right choice.

      I was in the fortunate position where my SO was completely supportive and also we could get by with just his salary while I was unemployed. I was unemployed for about 8 months, including a month where I didn’t job hunt, just worked with my doctor and therapist on dealing with my work-induced stress and depression.

      I am now employed again. I decided to me honest with prospective employers and told them that I quit my old job due to a period of illness, but that I was now recovered and enthusiastic to get back to work and continue my career development. Maybe some employers were put off, but I ended up with a great job eventually.

      I would say you should listen to those around you and just quit. Yes it is traditionally not a good thing to do, but in some situations it really is the only option. At the end of the day you need to put your health and wellbeing first.

    13. Pipette*

      I quit with nothing lined up for similar reasons as you – the job was breaking me down completely. Fortunately, I had been saving for a down payment on a new apartment and had also accrued a ton of OT (see “job breaking me down completely”), so I had enough money in the bank to live comfortably on for a year at least. The final pay check actually lasted for almost four months because I have a cheap lifestyle, haha!

      I am in a field where there are plenty of freelancing opportunities, so I did a bit of freelancing before I landed another job about six months later.

      The money in the bank made the whole experience pretty painless. But getting away from a job that hurts you is priceless. Good luck!

    14. RG*

      I had savings, and I was able to get a job in two months. Granted, I live a city fairly dependent on oil, so I was job hunting during that first slump last fall.

    15. OfficePrincess*

      I quit my last job with nothing lined up. It was impacting my health pretty severely – previously controlled conditions were flaring up worse than they ever had and I was having panic attacks for the first time in my life. Looking back, I realize now, that trying to hang on long enough to be eligible for FMLA was probably a major red flag that it wasn’t sustainable. Fortunately, by the time I quit, I had an understanding manager (too little too late though) who was able to swing administrative leave for me for a week so I could get an extra month of health insurance. It was tough, since my now husband wasn’t making enough to support us both, but we had savings and my parents helped some. It took three months to find a job (though the first month was devoted more to recovery than searching) and then my start date was 3 weeks after I was hired. It wasn’t an easy four months, but I don’t regret it.

    16. LabTech*

      Once I knew I couldn’t work under Toxic Boss anymore, I started saving money for the inevitable. Rather than try and parse through my resentment towards the job versus legitimately abusive working conditions, I decided to use my boss’s behavior to base my timeline off of. My decision to eventually leave was sparked by my boss having a two-hour long argument with me over an inconsequential detail, where I knew I couldn’t just agree with him without subsequently getting criticized for not thinking critically about my work, so I just stuck to my guns even though I knew it didn’t matter.

      I decided the next time he tried to drag out a minor decision I made into a “This is everything that’s wrong with you, and if you would just see it my way, I could tell you how stupid and incompetent you are”-type argument would be the day I would turn in my two weeks’. To make a long story short, I turned in my two weeks, things got uglier, and I cut my notice to one week.

      What followed was 9 months of unemployment, and abject poverty with no unemployment benefits and only my meager savings to support myself on. Getting a job with a poor reference and long-term unemployment was HARD, especially while fretting over how to pay rent and groceries. But I did it, got a great job (eventually), and went from long-term unemployed to amazing career job over night. And I would do it all over again, even knowing what I’d have to go through.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Crispy, my heart goes out to you. No job is worth sacrificing your health for, none. There is not enough pay in this world that compensates us for our lost well-being. People who were in tighter financial situations have made the jump and so will you.
      I think of it as, there are times where I need me to help ME. If I do not help myself when I need it the most, that is the biggest let down there is. Your boss and workplace are a lost cause. They are a one trick pony, and they are doing their trick. They let you down. Don’t let yourself down. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and get yourself to a healthier place in life.

    18. Menacia*

      From your last post, it sounded like your doctor was recommending you take short term disability, have you been able to confirm if your company offers that (or is it something you have to purchase on your own)? Even if you can take extended sick leave just to get your thoughts together and start making plans to leave why not do it?

      From what you’ve written, you have a terrific professional and family support system, as well as different work opportunities that could get you by, so I’m not sure why you think you are quitting without anything lined up?

      If you do decide to leave your job, make sure you do so professionally by going through the resignation process, giving them two weeks notice, tie up loose ends….that way you can leave without looking back.

    19. Kristine*

      I quit a job with nothing lined up. My manager was mostly absent but would make sure to call and berate me once a day. Some of my coworkers stopped showing up to work (nobody was there to monitor them) so I took up their slack. The company was bleeding dry from the CEO spending money on technology we didn’t need while cutting the salaries of everyone else in half. I was working 60 hour weeks for less than minimum wage, with zero PTO, holidays, or medical benefits.

      I spent 7 months “unemployed”, meaning I worked part time and freelanced in order to pay my bills. It sucked to not have much money but it was still better than that job.

      Good luck to you!

    20. Argh!*

      I asked to be let go without cause & with severance and my company went along with it. They’d eliminated my position and put me into a situation where I was doomed to fail (though I did rather well despite the deck being stacked against me). Also, my supervisor was a flake.

      I was unemployed for 5 months, the first 3 months were spent sleeping and going to therapy. My next job was a deep pay cut but it came at just the right time. I had nightmares about the old place for a few years but I did recover. My advice: get out and don’t look back.

    21. katamia*

      I quit a job last year because it was affecting my mental and physical health, but my situation was a bit different because I was confident that one of my previous employers would hire me back once I’d moved back to where I was living before (and I was right, and I’m now working for them again). The reason I quit instead of sticking it out, though, was because I realized that as my mental and physical health got worse, my work quality was only going to go downhill. If it was a situation where I just had to get over the “hump,” so to speak, I would have stuck it out. But when you have this many people telling you to leave, this definitely doesn’t sound like a “getting over the hump” situation.

      I suggest talking to your friend and firming up the details of the part-time job before quitting if that would make you feel better about it.

    22. Sunny With a Chance of Showers*

      Think of it this way:

      Let’s say they let you go/fire you/lay you off. No notice, you’re out the door. That situation would really be no different than giving notice without another job lined up.

      Do it for your own well-being.

    23. Blue_eyes*

      I quit without anything lined up about two years ago. It certainly hasn’t been easy, especially as my husband has been unemployed on and off during the past two years as well. But I managed to scrape together some part time work related to my field while I recovered from OldJob and looked for my next job. I actually just received an offer this week for a full time job. When I quit I never imagined it would take two years to get back to a full time job, but I’ve never once regretted it. OldJob was incredibly bad for my mental health at the end, and it was the right decision to leave. Take care of yourself. I hope everything works out for you!

    24. Olie*

      I worked for a very demanding, toxic place. The managers treated you like you were on call, berated you for everything whether right or wrong, and even bullied employees. We had a lot of burn-out, high turn-around, and even suicides. Once we had a meeting, and we realized that we all needed to be looking for other employment, pretty much at their suggestion, that if we didn’t like it, leave.

      I had a job offer from a friend, like you. It was a huge pay cut, however, just the prospect of leaving was such a visible relief, you could tell who in our work area was planning on switching employment. It was the best thing I did for myself and my family, even though I am sole breadwinner (single mom) and was very nervous about it.

      I tell everyone that the stress of limited finances is much different than the stress of being at a horrible job with no end in sight. I would suggest coming up with a very concrete plan and budget. I use coupons and rebates in combination with sales (phone aps, print online coupons, and check out the online coupons and sales blogs). I cannot stress enough to cook at home, keeping meals simple and healthy. I have cancelled the extra things that I could, like my gym membership (walking and running are free!) and renegotiated others such as my internet and phone contracts.

      Just make sure that you are upfront with your friend that it will be part-time and possibly short-term, meaning you may be looking for a second job or other employment after a while. It is easier to find employment while employed.

      I think that you will discover that even though this is a big change, if the only think is that you will have to tighten your belt for a few months to be happier, why wouldn’t you do it? Good Luck!

    25. Trillian*

      I quit with nothing lined up when a job I loved mutated into a job I hated under one of the two people who is on my never work with again shitlist. By the time he was shown the door I was unsalvageable — I’d walk into the office crying, shut off my feelings as I hit the door, and walk home crying. There was precious little in my field locally, and I couldn’t wait for something to open up. I went freelance, my former company and departed former coworkers sent projects my way, and I achieved a sustainable lifestyle until I moved. It felt like jumping off a cliff, but I decided that if I could do it and go splat, then I would never feel I had to stay in a bad situation again. Also, I got religion about making sure I had a 6-months Go-to-Hell fund, so while my own psyche might trap me, money never would.

    26. Fluffer Nutter*

      I did it a year ago. My friends and family were supportive and I had a 4 week vacation payout so I took the plunge, partly to flaunt the conventional wisdom that it will make you radioactive to employers, partly because I was so exhausted I knew I wouldn’t interview well and it wouldn’t be fair to a new job. I couldn’t image giving my best at that point. Took 2-3 months to relax, started volunteering, and got hired where I volunteered 2 months later. I had 2 interviews out of 10 applications, and another request for an interview after I started this job so I wasn’t too much of a pariah. If you do it, make sure that you have a good, positive answer lined if if asked about it in an interview. Nothing that sounds remotely bitter, and quickly turn to why you want X job. I’m sure there are good examples on AAM. Good luck Crispy! Nothing is worth your health.

    27. Silver*

      I once quit a job with nothing line up because it had put me into therapy.
      When I burst into tears every time I was asked about work I decided to do some post-grad course work and look for another job in the meantime.

      I would not recommend giving notice the way I did though. Gave one months notice on January 1st at midnight by email. Now that I’m out of that situation I aware I could have handled that so much better.

      The next day my boss was livid but I was so happy to be leaving none of it bothered me. I cried the day I left because I’d been at that company almost 10 years and even when you’re happy to go it’s still hard.

      Searching for a new job went well for me. Since my industry is small and I had a very specific set of skills I had an interview for a maternity leave fill position the week after I finished and had a new job three weeks after with a small raise.

      Ended up staying there for two years on a maternity leave contract which is very unusual. I also got a grad-dip in that time while studying part time (for the American’s that’s two subjects short of a masters). It was the best thing I ever did although I could have handled some parts of it better. I found that I couldn’t be objective about how bad the situation was because I had invested so much of myself into the role. It was really freeing to step back and disconnect from that.

      I wish you all the best in freeing yourself from this situation.

    28. Irish Goodbye*

      I had a terrible, terrible job and I should have quit before I had something else lined up. Even though I had a lot of debts and needed the money it would have been better to get out of there and concentrate on finding something else.

    29. TootsNYC*

      I didn’t quit–and maybe I should have. At any rate, it was hard.

      But part of why I didn’t quit was because I was getting better (in terms of my own depression that went along with the part of the job that was genuinely bad). I didn’t have people urging me to quit.

      I also didn’t quit because I was the family’s sole source of insurance. (That said, I’m still a little mad that my husband didn’t help with that issue by researching other insurance sources, or by working a hell of a lot harder to get a full-time job, or even part-time at Starbucks for insurance reasons. Not fair of me completely, bcs I could have researched those as well, but I was working during the day….)

      And sometimes I think that it would have been so, so wonderful to just quit. To just say, “I’m outta here in 2 weeks.”

      The amount of energy sucked up by all that angst meant that I really couldn’t job hunt that well.

      You really do have “things lined up.” It’ll be fine–you’ll be happier. And it’ll matter. Even years from now, as you can tell from other people’s stories, you’ll be glad you quit.

    30. Ruffingit*

      I’ve done this twice – quit with nothing lined up. The first time was in early 2007. I had worked at a job that was so awful, I had to go on medication to get through it. I quit and then took some smaller jobs before landing a job with a company my friend was working for. Which also sucked terribly and I left it after six weeks without another job lined up. So yeah, I quit without another job lined up twice in one year. It was worth it though. I went back to school, got my master’s degree and am now doing something I love.

      Quit. If so many people in your life are telling you to do so, then do it. And afterwards, give yourself at least two weeks off to sleep and heal before you start a part-time job or whatever.

    31. The Bookworm*

      Do you have Short Term disability insurance where you work & could you qualify? (Due to stress).

    32. Belle diVedremo*

      Hi Crispy,

      It’s good to hear that so many people have your back.
      The one piece I recommend trying to sort out first is health insurance so you can continue to get care to recover from this mess. Your medical team will likely have some suggestions.

      If short-term disability is an option, that could give you some space & time to figure out what you need to have in place (eg health insurance) and how to do it before you quit.

      Please keep us posted, we’re pulling for you.

    33. Wanna-Alp*

      I quit with nothing lined up. I had tried for 8 years to make the job work out, but I couldn’t cope with it anymore and my health was deteriorating. I also had a SO who made enough for me not to need to walk immediately into a new job.

      For me, it was a really good experience. I spent the next few months enjoying myself which included catching up on sleep, domestic chores, gardening, and various hobby projects that I hadn’t been able to complete before. My SO got something out of it too: in recompense, I did a lot more of the housework and my SO got to enjoy a lot of my cooking. After about 7 months I took a half-time job for a 6-month contract, and then had another 7 months off. I kept half an eye out for job adverts, found an interesting-looking one and landed the job.

      It was a really good experience. I regained the most I could of my health and sanity, had great fun getting fitter, and enjoyed life. The only thing that I regret is that the free time I had off was in the winter months, when the weather isn’t so good and the daylight can be short. I could have done a lot more with summer months!

      If you can afford to do it, I would strongly recommend the experience.

  5. Whoops*

    Does anyone have experience with Evolv? For no reason I can divine, my organization has decided to switch to it from Quikbase at some point this spring.

  6. J*

    Helloooooooooo work experts!

    Is there anything to be done when an employer says they’ll be in touch to schedule an interview and then just…don’t? I had a phone interview, they emailed me weeks later to say they’d like to meet me in person sometime in February (it involves travel for me). As February approached and my calendar started filling up, I emailed politely asking for an update. They said “so sorry, we’ll get back to you by the end of the week.” “The end of the week” was a week ago. Are they ghosting me? Should I follow up? Whyyyyy are they like this?

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      I hate that :/ I’d give them another week or 2, then email back once. After that if you still don’t hear anything- keep searching. Good luck! I know it’s frustrating.. Searching over a year now so I feel your pain.

      1. J*

        How long would you give them? And would you try to keep all of February open in the meantime, just in case?

        1. fposte*

          God, no. This is where the relationship adage “Do not make somebody a priority when to them you are only an option” comes into play. And how would you feel if you kept all of February open and then they want to see you in March?

          If your travel would be longer than, say, a day trip, I do think that can give you a reason to bump up your query and make it more specific. I would email next week (the beginning is fine) and say “I’m still very interested in talking to you; I realize you may not be ready to schedule anything, but since I need overnight travel it would be great if you could let me know whether there are particular days that you tend to interview on so I can try to keep some possibilities open.”

          And if you don’t get an answer to that, or if it’s “We don’t have a set schedule, but we’re totally getting back to you in the next week or so,” let it go and make your plans.

        2. Red Wheel*

          I supposed if you are really interested you could do that but that seems excessive. I would just move and go about normal life. Normally.

    3. fposte*

      Totally agreeing with BRR. They are like this because they have tons of other stuff going on and were optimistic about their schedule/funding/other candidate, and that is absolutely ubiquitous, so you will encounter this again and again.

    4. HR Recruiter*

      They probably had full intention of getting back to you but things in the business world never go as planned and more important things come up. You’ve done your part and followed up. I wouldn’t follow up again, and risk seeming too pushy. They may contact you in a few weeks, if they do so they will most likely be delaying the interview so you can make travel arrangements.

      1. The IT Manager*

        +1 I don’t think they’re ghosting you as in a cowardly let down, but you don’t have the power as an applicant to press for a firm date.

    5. J*

      Thanks all. It’s frustrating! Especially since this is one of the major employers in my field, always on those “Best places to work” lists…I will continue to sit tight and be patient.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Just because they are on “the best places to work list” may or may not be meaningful. I do understand what you mean, though. So near and yet so far. Good vibes heading your way.

  7. Cecilos*

    How do you approach a yearly performance review when you’re actively searching for another job?

    Maybe this is a weird question but this is my first 40 hour work week job and I am now looking for other work. I’m nearing the end of two years with this job and have my performance review coming up. Last year, when asked questions about how long I view myself being here, am I happy with my work, and the usual, I was able to answer honestly because I intended to stay as long as I could, was content with my job, etc. A lot has changed in this last year and now I’m eager to leave. If I were to answer these same questions the way I did last year, none of it would be true. So do I just lie my way through the review, about how I’m happy and could see me staying for years to keep my cover?

    Specifically, last year’s review, I asked for more responsibilities and more tasks to do. Even repeating that request several times throughout the year to my supervisor, and offering to take tasks from the co-worker who was given them and actively hates them, my supervisor has given me nothing new to do (and these aren’t tasks I can proactively take on myself, I have to be granted access to technical things only my supervisor can clear). It’s one of the main reasons I’m looking for work elsewhere but even if my supervisor gave me new stuff this week, I wouldn’t stick around. But should I ask again to make it seem like I plan on staying, even if by some miracle they might transfer the tasks to me only to have to give it back in a couple months?

    1. kac*

      I think it’s best to say what it is you’re looking for. A) You don’t know how long your job search will last, and if it takes longer than you would like, it’s better to have the chance to grow a bit while you’re still there and B) If you do leave a month from now, they’ll be able to connect the dots from your review and previous conversations about being challenged more.

      Of course, I wouldn’t go overboard about how you’d like things to change and I certain wouldn’t allude to the fact that you’ll likely leave over this issue. But a straightforward request that you’d like to learn new skills/be assigned new responsibilities in 2016 should suffice.

    2. BethRA*

      Go about it as if you weren’t actively searching for a job – although you might think about addressing some of the issues that are making you want to leave. If nothing else, you can’t know how long your search is going to take.

      1. INFJ*

        Agreed. Proceed as though you will be there for another year, because you don’t know how long your search will take. That doesn’t mean you have to lie in your review, though. Mention your desire to take on more responsibilities, even though you’ve made those requests before, because that is the honest answer to what you will need to advance in your current role. You can be honest by explaining what you want to see improved. Your manager may be able to read between the lines and see that you will be looking elsewhere if not given these opportunities.

    3. Sunflower*

      I think it’s okay to be upfront about some stuff that frustrates you. Just because you’re annoyed about some things in your job doesn’t signal you are definitely trying to leave. Also I think it would be weird if you had absolutely no complaints about your job and company. Like kac said, you have no idea how long you’ll be job searching(not to scare you but my job search was 2 years) and don’t stunt yourself from continuing to grow.

  8. CrazyCatLady*

    People who hire: Can you tell me about the worst candidate you’ve interviewed (preferably for non entry-level positions)?

    1. CV*

      Was part of an interview …panel? (what do you call it if there’s two people on the panel?) I am a woman, the other interviewer was a man.
      We interviewed a man for lower level management position, and he interrupted almost every question I tried to ask him, talking over the last few words I was trying to say. And didn’t interrupt my male colleague.

      1. AVP*

        I do love it when people show their true colors in an interview so you don’t have to hire them and find out later!

      2. Felicia*

        I had a similar experience, except the interviewee wouldn’t look at me, I am a woman, he would only make eye contact with my male colleague.

      3. Ismis*

        I had that. This guy didn’t even give me eye contact, except for an eye roll. He was very unsuited to the job anyway but complained through multiple avenues when he didn’t get it (customer support email, letter to HR and the CEO…). I think he was so bad, his agency ended up dropping him.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          My old boss at Oldjob had a candidate exactly like that! He rolled his eyes when he saw her and she said he was a total ass. We had a good laugh after he left.

    2. AVP*

      A smug, angry-seeming person who flat-out told us that what he really wanted to do was something else (not related to what we do) and that he’d be working as hard as possible in his downtime to make that dream a reality and quit our job ASAP.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I was hiring for a mid-level (2-5 years) graphic designer. HR sent me a resume for a former Creative Director with about 8 years experience and a fantastic portfolio. I normally would have passed (we’ve been burned by people who just need *a* job, but are still looking for something better), but he specifically addressed in his cover letter that he was “looking to take a step back from management due to increased family responsibilities.”

      Yeah, not so much. The interview was set with me (department head) and my lead graphic designer (design team manager). He seemed disappointed with us and asked why my boss (VP) wasn’t involved in the interview. He then quizzed us on our skills and actually asked me if I was “really able to manage a Creative Department” because my background is writing.

      He asked about the potential to move up, including (I wish I was kidding about this part) how long my lead and I expected to stay in our current positions!

      1. NotherName*

        Yup. Nothing creative about writing. (I find this especially funny because my father is a visual artist and considers that I understand the art process better than most people. Because I write.)

        1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

          It’s so true.

          My boss always said that I didn’t need to know how to draw, but I need a sharp eye for what our client’s wanted. I really think there is something in being a writer (whether it’s the way we read or listen) that really helped me understand their underlying wishes.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        PET PEEVE to end all pet peeves: art directors who don’t understand the value of a good copywriter. And somehow these are the ones who get promoted to executive creative director of an agency. Grrrrrrrr!

        1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

          Don’t even get me started about agencies…I was working with a recruiter and I kept getting rejected for positions solely on the fact I was a writer.

          It was so frustrating!

    4. afiendishthingy*

      My coworker and I were going to interview a guy on a Friday morning. My coworker had a family emergency and asked me to interview him alone. Guy shows up at 11:45, the receptionist says “You were supposed to be here at 11,” guy says “I thought it was 11:30,” receptionist says, probably just in her head, “You’re still late.” I asked her to let the guy know that I wouldn’t be able to meet with him that day, but we could chalk it up to a miscommunication and reschedule. It did turn out he had been calling my coworker, who had been unable to answer her phone.

      We rescheduled for the following Friday. Guy is close to an hour late, again. We meet with him just to say we met with him, and ask what’s going on with the lateness. “Oh, Fridays are tough for me, I’m in class.” “You know you could just have told us ahead of time that this time wouldn’t work?” “Oh, ok.” We told him we were concerned that he wouldn’t be able to arrive to shifts on time. “No, I would be able to.”

      Then it turned out that he didn’t actually speak the language that was required for that position, despite two coworkers remember him telling them that he did. We did not hire him.

    5. Winter is Coming*

      The guy who told me about how he berated his dying mother for having to take care of her, and how she cried when he told her that. My heart broke for the poor woman. He was an awful interviewee in other ways, but that part sticks out in my mind.

      1. BSharp*

        That is horrifying beyond belief.

        Some people make me want to say “Bless your heart.” He makes me want to say “God have mercy on your soul.”

    6. Ama*

      There was a candidate for an administrative director position at a former academic employer who walked into a meeting with the director of another department (on the same level of the org chart as the position she was interviewing for), and basically announced that she saw the admin director position as “basically the executive director position, but for administration instead of faculty” — in other words, that she saw herself as the other department director’s boss.

    7. Connie-Lynne*

      I was hiring a system engineer and the interviewee could not stop addressing every answer to my rack. At one point I asked if I should move to make it easier to look at my face (I couldn’t figure out a professional way to say EYES UP HERE) and he looked at my face, mumbled sorry, and continued to stare at my boobs.

      Later I found out his salary request was literally $150K higher than our top level; nearly twice the going industry rate.

      1. RG*

        $150K higher?! What, does he think he’s a consultant or something?

        (Is it sad that the “wandering eyes” doesn’t shock me anymore?)

      3. Chex Mix*

        What is it about engineering? I had a best friend from the age of 10 who was never, ever misogynist or anything of the sort. He went to engineering school and by the end of 4 years I honestly think he believed that women simply lacked the capacity to understand complex matters, such as math.

        I new that sexism was a real problem in the department, but I was shocked that it rubbed off on him so easily!

        1. Shell*

          I’m not entirely sure it’s a sexism thing but a “you’re not an engineer” thing (though given the gender imbalance in engineering, sexism and this kind of elitism go hand in hand).

          I once knew a (female) engineer who was all “I’m a @#^!ing engineer, we’re the smartest people in the world!” (verbatim quote) Maybe a few years in the workforce mellowed her out to a reasonable human. At least I hope.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            That crap makes me so mad. You’re an engineer–you’re smart at ENGINEER STUFF. That doesn’t make you an expert on everything.

            I see it in other people who do very complex work, too. It’s annoying AF. Let’s see Mr. Mathface write a novel. Or two. Or five.

            1. The Strand*

              Moreover, let’s see some of these engineers write technical manuals for the items they’ve designed.

              The dream many companies have is to find an engineer who a) can write well, b) think like an engineer, but communicate like an end user, and c) will take a lot less pay to become a technical writer.

              Finding the Loch Ness monster seems more reasonable.

              1. TootsNYC*

                I like math and physics, and I can remember abstract facts. Maybe I should go study engineering to add to my editing skills.

            2. Tau*

              I have a PhD in maths (I guess that makes me Dr Mathface? ;) ) and I have mad respect for people who write for a living. Writing up my thesis was painful. The end product is okay but ir took about three times as long to produce as it really should have because every sentence was like pulling teeth. So glad I have escaped to a job where the most I have to write is documentation, e-mails and bug fix descriptions. (I do write as a hobby, but it’s a HOBBY and no one cares if I can barely manage to scrape together 10k words over the course of an entire year. Chances of me ever getting a novel together are basically nil. Again, mad respect for anyone who can.)

              1. Elizabeth West*

                Dr Mathface, hahahaha!

                It’s more about the attitude. Being great in one thing is fine–being an ass about it is not. And FWIW, I’ve had many writing sessions like that, where I just can. not. Novels don’t always just fall out of you, though it’s nice when writing goes that well.

                I wish I didn’t have the math LD thing. I probably would have been a biologist or some kind of scientist (maybe epidemiology or some kind of forensics) because I was crazy interested in that stuff as a kid.

          2. LabTech*

            More generally, it’s a very pervasive attitude in the STEM fields (along with the sexism, racism, anti-theism, etc. that I’ve seen from that crowd in my experience too). Well, except for mathematicians – they’re cool.

            1. catsAreCool*

              I develop software and really haven’t experienced that. Maybe I’ve just been fortunate. I am female.

              Then again, usually sexism might have to be pretty overt before I really noticed.

        2. Bagworm*

          This was several years ago but I had a couple of female friends attending the top engineering/tech school in our state and if they sat in the front rows of the classroom, the professors would literally stand behind them to lecture.

        3. Jennifer*

          There are very few women in engineering–probably for a good reason given how a lot of the men act.

    8. College Career Counselor*

      Years ago, I was part of a roomful of colleagues interviewing a candidate for an associate dean position that included student judicial oversight. I asked the candidate to talk about his understanding of “restorative justice” and how he might have applied that concept in previous work with students. Said candidate proceeded to give a very smug, condescending answer (the details of which I’ve mercifully forgotten, as it went on for some time) and then called me out for asking what he felt was a loaded question and strongly implied that I was stupid for having done so.

      I was flabbergasted and thought that I’d possibly misunderstood him (since he did not do anything like this to any of the other people asking him questions) and bided my time until it came around to me again. I asked about something else, and he gave me the same attitude (ie, I was an idiot asking ridiculous questions).

      It wasn’t just my impression, either. A couple of colleagues said, “Well, I guess he told YOU” while rolling their eyes at his behavior.

      Naturally, this person was the early favorite of the dean, so feedback had to be delivered (shall we say) diplomatically. Fortunately, this person was not offered the position, and it turned into a failed search.

    9. Lai*

      Candidate showed up about 10 minutes late and blamed it on our receptionist giving her bad directions. Over before it started.

    10. quietone*

      potential colleague interview – I’ve forgotten the details but conversation got derailed into his personal life and he was just so very angry at the world. Recruiter followed up hoping we’d hire him cause the recruiter “felt bad for him”

      1. Ama*

        Recruiter was tired of dealing with him, more likely. I bet a lot of that anger got dumped on the recruiter when he didn’t get hired.

    11. AnotherFed*

      The very first person I interviewed was the worst ever. It was a government posting, so he’d had to answer some questions and rate himself on certain skills and experience as part of the application. During the phone interview, it became obvious he had lied on every single one of those questions and that he actually had none of the needed skills and experience. Then, when we did not hire him, he tried to file a lawsuit against us for discriminating against him for being disabled. We’d never seen him or been told about any disability, so I don’t even know what it was we were supposedly discriminating for.

    12. TotesMaGoats*

      An internal candidate applying for what would be a lateral move to a different team, who I also happened to go to high school with, told me I had skin like a porcelain doll. She wouldn’t have worked for me and while I appreciate the compliment, it was super awkward.

    13. Chex Mix*

      We were hiring for a mid-level analyst role (3-5 years).

      Against my advice, we brought in a manager with 20 years of experience, 10 years being in management. This guy was filthy. He looked like he had not shaved for 3 days, his hair was disheveled, and I began to wonder if he maybe had a drug problem due to his finger nails being jet black with dirt and grime.

      If that were not enough, he spent the entire interview talking about how he manages people and flipped every standard “How would you handle X” into how he would manage people in X situation. Better still, we called his references and they all said they would recommend him for anything but a management role. Oh and there were inconsistencies between his interview, resume, and LinkedIn.

      Amazingly some people still wanted to hire the guy after all of that!

    14. Rat Racer*

      I interviewed a woman who bad-mouthed everyone in her department (and this was an internal transfer) and put her feet up on my desk

    15. Muriel Heslop*

      Tie:
      – Teacher who said she didn’t want to work “with retarded kids.” It was for a special ed position.
      – Teacher who arrived apparently hungover for a group interview. He proved it when he threw up in the trash can and apologized saying, “last night went late.”

      1. Rat Racer*

        Ew!! EW EW EW!!! On both points!! The first is soul-crushing, and as for the second, I probably would have fainted or thrown up myself.

    16. Lia*

      These are from the same search:

      Asked a candidate how she would handle the repetitive nature of some of the job’s tasks (they can be boring but must be done daily) – she answered she wouldn’t do that, she would get someone else in the department to take it over

      Interviewed a candidate who clearly had not read the job description and spent 90% of his time talking about what he planned to do if hired — all of which were very clearly NOT things in the job description, and had no relation to the tasks at hand. The position was for an auditor and he was talking about event planning. Amazingly, the hiring manager offered him the job and candidate turned it down.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Asked a candidate how she would handle the repetitive nature of some of the job’s tasks (they can be boring but must be done daily) – she answered she wouldn’t do that, she would get someone else in the department to take it over.

        Well on the bright side, she knows how to delegate.

    17. EmilyG*

      I sense a theme here…

      I once interviewed someone for a developer position who (a) showed up 15 minutes late without calling or anything–the office location was confusing, but still AND (b) talked so continuously that it was almost impossible to get a question in edgewise AND (c) addressed everything he was saying solely towards my older male colleague, not me, the youngish female hiring manager.

      My colleague was probably the one who was most uncomfortable. The candidate seemed totally oblivious to how completely he was flaming out. Today, I’m older and would be much more assertive about asking questions and trying to make him talk to me, not that it would change the outcome.

    18. Cube Farmer*

      I was hiring a new team that would include an entry-level person, a technical person, and a lead. Two men walked in and filled out applications. One was there for the lead position and one for the technical. They both wanted to be interviewed on the spot. This was not unheard of back then because these jobs were in very high demand and there were few qualified people to fill them. I agreed and asked Lead Man to come on back to my office first. “No. We have to be interviewed together or not at all.” Oh, this is going to be fun I thought.

      Back in my office, Lead Man did most of the talking. I had already decided I was not going to hire them; because, in addition to being interviewed together, they also required I hired both. Then I reminded them that it was a drug free workplace (it was in the ad) and they would have to pass a pre-employment screen. Technical Man lost all color in his face and screamed, “WHAT?!” Lead Man gave him a jab with his elbow and assured me, “um…uh…that’s cool…yeah…yeah…no problem.”

      Luckily I was able to find people to fill the positions that were not tied at the hip.

    19. NJ Anon*

      Had a few: the guy who winked at me, the woman who’s response to every question had to do with “her knowledge” with no specifics, the woman who had two degrees (think accounting and rocket science) but worked in a doctors’ office and could barely string a sentence together . . .

    20. Brett*

      This person was applying for a technical lead and had every qualification we wanted. The interviewee had made it past the phone screens to the in-person interview as one of our finalists.

      I was the technical interviewer. My role was just to assess their abilities the skills they had experience with. I always tried to build on my questions, starting with simple concepts and building on questions to lead to more advanced concepts and “even though you don’t know how to do this, how would you find the answer” questions.

      I asked the first simple technical question and he very confidently answered it complete wrong. I was really thrown off, but tried the next two questions. Again, very confident answers that were nowhere close to correct. Less than 5 minutes in, and the technical interview was done. The hiring manager probed a bit more, and turns out he never had any of the technical experience he claimed. Instead, he had been a non-technical manager of technical teams in those areas. We realized the applicant might have had one of the technical staff at their current job do the phone screen.

    21. Algae*

      The three of us were interviewing for a position that would be our manager. We asked something about what her direct reports thought of her management style (I don’t remember the exact wording now) and she told us that some would say she’s a “witch with a b”. She complained about her underlings a couple of times after that, too.

      Needless to say, my co-workers and I didn’t recommend she move any further in the process.

    22. TinyPjM*

      Oh…I have a few….

      We were hiring for a fairly technical role, and a woman came in with her husband, who she said could “just walk around the office” while we interviewed her. Ummm…no. She then proceeded to complain about our product and how much she hated it, and explain how she was married on 4/20 and how it was very important to her (a day now known as basically…yay, marijuana day) which I didn’t really have a problem with, but it had nothing to do with anything!

      For a marketing related role, a man came in with his degree in finance. Great! When he arrived, he smelled PROFUSELY of alcohol. I asked him how he would work to monetize our product, and he said “Honey, I don’t know what that word means.” Pass. PASS.

      1. BuildMeUp*

        Well hopefully she got married on 4/20 because of the pot connection and not because it’s Hitler’s birthday!

    23. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I’m not racist, but a lot of the kids in this school district were {race}, so of course we had issues.”

      1. twig*

        We had one guy who, when asked to describe his experience, said “well, you have my resume.”

        Ooh Also, the candidate for CIO who told the Dean of Libraries that he was taking her office and parking spot.
        (one of the options for his office location was in the same office suite as library admin)

    24. Ann Cognito*

      Two of us were interviewing for an Executive Asst to the CEO position, so not entry level.

      First candidate comes in. About ten minutes into the interview, her cell phone, which was in her bag on the floor by her feet, started ringing. She leaned over sideways off the chair, reaching into the bag with her hand rooting around for the phone, while she held up the index finger of her free hand towards us, shushing us/holding the discussion. And proceeded to take the call, a whole conversation telling her caller that it wasn’t a bad time, although she was currently in an interview, but she’d love to meet for a coffee after the interview, probably in about an hour or so. “Does that work? Great! How about the Starbucks at (X street)? Great! See you there in about an hour. I’ll call as soon as I’m done here and we can be more specific about the time. Bye”. She hung up and said she was sorry about that, and where were we before the call. We were flabbergasted, even though we couldn’t look at each other as we knew we’d have cracked-up laughing (which we did as soon as she left!). Needless to say, she was done much faster than she had anticipated! She really had no idea that what she’d done was completely inappropriate.

      Believe it or not, the very next candidate into the room, her cell phone rang in the middle of the interview too! However, this time, she looked mortified, apologized profusely for having forgotten to mute it before beginning, and asked us if it would be ok for her to silence it there and then, to ensure no more interruptions. She was actually the candidate who ended-up getting the job.

      We had a conversation afterwards about how we had just had two perfect examples of how to handle something gracefully, vs. how absolutely not to do it.

      1. Windchime*

        We interviewed a guy who was super nervous…hands trembling, voice shaking, sweating. OK. We thought he would settle down but he remained nervous. His phone rang several times during the interview, and his hands were shaking so hard that he didn’t seem to be able to figure out how to silence it. Oh, and he was way, way overqualified (on paper). Over my objections, he was hired and was a monumental train wreck. He ended up quitting before 6 months was out because he had a problem working for a female manager.

    25. Lia*

      I have another one!

      We were interviewing AVP (assistant vice president) candidates at a university. Candidate comes in, interview is going well, and we ask if he has any questions for us.

      Yes, he says, he wants to know what kind of car we will provide him. He would prefer a Cadillac, but could compromise with a Lexus if that was not possible.

      Our university did not even provide the PRESIDENT (who would have actually been 2 levels above this guy) with a car. We were a not-very-wealthy state school. Um.

      Despite that blunder, he actually got an offer, accepted it, then reneged on it a week later when he got an offer from another school — where I happen to know they ALSO do not provide administrators with cars. I wonder how they sweetened the deal for him.

    26. Book Person*

      Two stand out:

      1) For a mid-level position that had a strong potential for promotion, the candidate who was…ok to adequate in his in-person interview, but afterwards took to his twitter to brag how he had “totally crushed it” and that “when” we offered him the job he’d stay for a month or so while he kept interviewing because it would be a good line on the resume to leverage. Bonus: the twitter feed had a plugin on his blog…which he had linked to in his resume.

      2) For a job that involved being able to travel to multiple customers by car where transit wasn’t an option, and required someone to be able to read maps/plan a route/navigate often labyrinthine campuses. We provide a map and directions to all interview candidates in case they need to commute in. This candidate called almost an hour after his interview time to say he was lost, and asked me to come to the store where he had parked to pick him up. He was close by, and it was a slow enough afternoon that I agreed. While I was in transit to find him, he decided that, actually, he could find his way instead, and so was gone by the time I arrived to get him. Did not show up, call back, or answer his phone for another hour, when he finally showed up at the office. We hired someone else.

    27. dear liza dear liza*

      I’m in the south. Worst candidate came into the office and met someone with the local accent. WC said, “You know, I used to have an accent. But it made people think I was dumb, so I got rid of it. If you work at it, you can get rid of yours.” DONE. It was a very, very long day, full of “can you believe she just said that?” silent communications.

    28. Annie*

      Had a candidate come in about 20 minutes late for interview. Before I went in, a couple of my staff informed me that they just saw her in the bathroom washing her hair in the sink. I was not sure that was information I needed, but they both insisted that, “You are going to wonder whey she’s so WET.” During interview, she …….spoke……..very………slowly………….. and kept asking about being in the cloud. “Is your calendaring done in the cloud?” ….. “Saving files…. is that in the cloud?” (Only much….much…..slower) The weird thing was that she came from a very good referral source, was supposed to be really experienced and had aced her initial phone interview. :/

      1. The Strand*

        That’s so weird, I would assume something had happened to her like a bird crapping on her head, or that maybe she’d had a concussion on the way over.

        1. Adam V*

          I always just assume they have someone else do their phone interview. That’s why I start off the in-person interview with a technical question of similar difficulty, just to make sure we’re talking to the right person.

    29. Lily in NYC*

      Yay! This was for a VP position. She showed up 20 minutes late with no apology. My boss was pissed and asked why and she said she had to go get copies made of her resume. Not impressive. She was wearing a romper (kind of a mini-dress overall combo with a giant keyhole cut out of the back and her bra was showing). And sandals. We are a conservative government office. My boss actually refused to interview her and sent two of his direct reports to meet her first. After the first one met her, he came back to tell the other person it was her turn – but before the other person even got up we saw the interviewee walk down the hall and out the door without a word. The weird thing is that her resume was really good.

      The best one ever was the woman who showed up drunk at 10 am (for a second interview! It’s difficult to make a 2nd round here). This interview was with my boss (same guy as above). She told him she didn’t like the women who interviewed her in the first round, but that it was ok because she would just make sure to only work for him. And then she made eyes at him and caressed his knee. He kicked her out right then and there.

      1. Neruda*

        I’m a little late to the party here, but I was once interviewing for a teaching position. We asked the candidate about a time when they had worked with colleagues to improve student outcomes. He told a story about how he was supervising students at swimming, turned his back and a student almost drowned. The ‘working with colleagues part’ was about how he and a coworker performed CPR on the student. And he began to cry while retelling the story. Why you would tell a story at a teaching interview about how your negligence almost killed a child I will not understand. Following the interview we were all silent for quite a while, mouths open.

    30. Anon for this, definitely*

      ooh. In my 3 years in higher ed and 2 years as a manager, I’ve hired 4 people (mid-level to senior developers) and been on hiring committees for several other manager and senior level positions. It’s hard to choose just one. One experience as a hiring manager comes to mind.

      At my company, internal or affiliated candidates are given the courtesy of an in-person interview instead of just a phone screen. “Bob” was an affiliated candidate because of a family connection. He came in to see the hiring committee for an hour and, uh, blew us away. He swore mildly, trash-talked his current job a little too much, and told a really weird origin story. Apparently his parents worked for the company (40+ years ago!) and had to leave suddenly due to scandalous circumstances. Why did we need to know this?

      So time goes on, the pool is really shallow for this position, and it comes time to bring people on-site. My boss, who hadn’t met this guy, said ‘How bad could he be?’, and my hiring committee said ‘His technical skills weren’t that bad.’ So I said, okay, what the heck, bring him in again, he’s local, maybe I’m wrong.

      He touched himself through the hiring committee interview (90 minutes worth, I didn’t see this, but the guy sitting next to him did), said F**K twice, couldn’t go deeply into technical details, and was condescending and arrogant. When meeting another group in another part of our company, he told the origin story again, in greater detail. I have to say my first impression was correct and I should have ended the interview in the morning.

    31. NicoleK*

      At ex company, a departing manager was tasked with interviewing his replacement. As his colleague, I volunteered to assist with the interviews. There was one candidate that stood out for the worst candidate. On paper, the candidate appeared experienced, knowledgable, and competent. During the interview, the candidate struggled so much that I began suspecting that he used a resume writer as his resume was quite impressive, and he clearly wasn’t. Thankfully, my colleague ended the interview and escorted the candidate out of the room. Candidate walked back into the room and and stretched out his hand. Naturally, I assumed that he wanted to shake my hand so I offered up my hand. Candidate clasped my hand with his two hands and said, “Will I see you again?” I was completely stunned, bewildered, and stammered, “I’m not sure”.

    32. Soupspoon McGee*

      I was on an interview committee for a public relations/marketing position. One candidate had years of experience in the field and looked good on paper. In person, he said his old position had been eliminated to give it to a blonde with (rude gesturing) huge assets. That was not the only sexist, inappropriate thing he said. We passed.

    33. Jen*

      Ugh, I have the worst people I’ve interviewed AND the worst person someone hired against my advice and then I had to work with.

      Interview:
      – Ex employee from our development department applied for a technical role on my product management team. I was asked to do a courtesy interview as he had a good record while he was here. Head of development told me he was “a blacklisted no-hire” in his eyes because he (the candidate) was a “complete prima donna.” HR had me interview him anyway. He was 10 minutes late to the interview (I hung up the bridge line because he hadn’t shown up after 5 min, but he somehow got my cell # and called me directly), had not given HR or me a resume. When asked, he said “well, [company] should be familiar with my work; I know all the systems and basically built XYZ [piece of system not relevant to the role].” I asked about why he left, and what he had been doing since then, and was told “being paid more but being bored.” At that point, it was a clear no, but I was morbidly curious so I pressed on…he told me how I should run my department (I was a VP; he was interviewing for a role two levels down from me and non-management), 400 things the company was doing wrong, why he was G-d’s gift to the world, etc. None of these things were about technical skills, business skills, goals relevant to the opportunity I had open, etc. It was crazy.

      I not only didn’t hire him, but told HR he should never be interviewed again (and the head of development backed me up). What an @ss.

      2. I interviewed someone who was flakey, unclear in responses, and seemed like he was desparate for A job (not This Job). It was for a role reporting to my boss that would be a lower-level but peer to me. I voted no. He was hired, my boss got promoted, and I got the leadership role, with this guy reporting into me. He was late on his first day. He had to travel to get to company training and missed his flight. Then he couldn’t pay for his hotel room (which typically the company pays for in advance, but due to the travel snaffu/timing he ended up having pay for and then get reimbursed) because he apparently was going through bankruptcy and had his assets frozen and all his credit cards were frozen for non payment (or something like this—I got about a 20 minute explaination all this). Then he asked for his paycheck up front after day 2 because was months behind on his mortgage. Missed meetings and then called me and spent 20-30 minutes telling me he ran late in therapy (which he had not requested time off for, regardless of the reason), that he had to have such-and-such day off because he was meeting with his divorce attorney or real estate agent or whatever. ON TOP OF ALL THE PERSONAL DRAMA, he missed every deliverable and deadline. If the dude spent 50% of the time he was telling me about his Life Problems actually doing work, he wouldn’t have nearly as many life problems! I empathize with people in this situation, I really do, but we (not me! my former boss!) agreed to pay this guy $160k/year and it was Just.Not.Worth.It. I fired him after a week. My former boss sent me a note saying, “that was such the right thing to do. I just felt so bad for him I couldn’t do it!” Uh…thanks for leaving your mess for me to clean up, lady.

  9. LotusEclair1984*

    This has never happened to me before, but a good problem to have! I have been offered a full-time position at my current place of employment, where I work as an independent contractor. I am thrilled! I absolutely love it here, and the position would be with the same team but with more responsibilities. It is full-time temp. Don’t have all the details on the offer. The day before my supervisor offered me the position, I got an email inviting me to interview for a dream job (full-time and permanent) in the city where my S.O. lives and where I’d like to relocate eventually. How should I manage having one offer and one interview? My current supervisor is also listed as a reference and knows that I’ve been looking for a full-time position. How should I disclose my upcoming interview at the other place? Any advice is appreciated!

    1. Sualah*

      Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but you’d be going from independent contractor to full time temporary employee? If you’ll be a temp at the current place, then I’d say there’s no harm no foul in accepting their offer, while still looking for a permanent position. If the permanent position winds up being the one in the other city, then it really worked out for you! If you have a good relationship with your manager, I think you could let them know you still want a permanent position, and still need to look for it.

    2. Jerzy*

      I think it’s okay to let your supervisor know that you are thrilled with the offer at your current place of employment, but you do have another interview lined up and you’d like to be clear on all your options before making a decision. Just make sure of the time frame in which your current job is looking for an answer on their offer.

      Good luck!

    3. Lucky*

      If they’ve only offered you a temp position, then I don’t think you owe them anything more than the normal notice period if you accept new city job. As the wise sage Beyonce once said, “cause if you liked it then you should have put a ring on it.”

      As for your supervisor acting as a reference, maybe you explain that new city job is a longshot, something already in process before current job offered you a (temp, not perm) position and you just want to see how far you can go in the process. Then jump on that job when you get an offer.

      1. LotusEclair1984*

        Re: Beyonce – Ha! love it.

        Would your advice change if I negotiate and get what I ask for in job Current Place? I have never negotiated before, and am scouring this site for all the advice on that. The most important thing to have other than a livable wage and is flexibility with my hours (which I currently have as a contractor) because I’m finishing my master’s degree.

    4. Glasskey*

      I don’t think any decent manager is going to hold it against you for going after a permanent job in lieu of a temporary one. I would go forward with it on the understanding that you are eventually looking for a permanent position as a career goal. Whether that opportunity arises in a year or a week is just one of those things. If your manager is already listed as a reference, then believe me, he or she is already aware that you might be interviewing.

  10. Trill*

    It looks like I will be moving from an exempt job in the US to an hourly, union job in Canada. (healthcare sector)

    I’ve never worked in a union job before (and I haven’t had an hourly job since summer jobs when I was a student). Is there anything I should be aware of going into this? Any advantages or disadvantages I should be aware of. Differences I need to know in how to conduct myself at work? Best ways to position myself to gain more responsibilities or promotions?

    1. the_scientist*

      No differences in how to conduct yourself at work, I think, unless the workplace happens to be small/gossipy/otherwise dysfunctional. If you’re in the healthcare sector, you’re likely with ONA or CUPE- ONA is a very powerful union. If you’re in Ontario, you’ll also probably be paying into HOOPP, which is the defined-benefit pension plan used by most healthcare sector employers in Ontario. It will depend on your workplace- I’m not sure if part-time employees are always eligible for HOOPP.

      I am not unionized but I’m in a healthcare- affiliated field and pay into HOOPP. A defined benefit pension plan is a powerful thing in this day and age. But if you’re paying into it, just be prepared for some sticker shock when you see how much of each paycheck is going directly to your pension!

      Also, be prepared to pay union dues (auto-deducted from your paycheck), which can be annoying, but remember that you’re paying those so that the union is able to advocate on behalf of all of it’s members. Also be aware that in union environments, seniority pays a more significant role in determining who gets promoted (and who gets “bumped”, if there are layoffs) than in non-union environments.

    2. LQ*

      Not all unions, or union environments are the same. The only thing I’d say is be careful of an us-vs-them mentality with management vs union employees. In some places it can be easy to slip into.

      The thing I was most surprised by coming to the union environment I am in now was time management. Everyone is not only very concerned about being on-time in the morning, but everyone leaves at the end of the day on time, every day. If you don’t a supervisor or manager will talk to you, because suddenly it’s overtime, and they don’t want you to feel overworked either. My boss noticed me coming in early (you don’t have to pay OT if someone comes in early on their own and sometimes I just want to get stuff done before people show up) and asked what my least favorite task was and took it away and found another way to handle it. That was a shocker. He wasn’t upset it wasn’t getting done or anything, just wanted to help me manage my workload. My boss isn’t going to stress about every minute, but I know some supervisors do because minutes over need to be paid as OT, minutes under are bad.

      1. Trill*

        Thanks
        I think that is one of the things I’m most concerned about–more rigidity about start and stop time (and presumably break time).
        I’m used to an exempt role, where I had more control over my work day. The focus was on completing the work I needed to, not on fitting the work into specific hours.

        1. LQ*

          I think that varies greatly from position to position. Some jobs and bosses around here are super rigid about it, some aren’t. (But I think that’s true in a lot of places.) Now that I’m more used to it, it is much more comfortable, I go home at 4:30 every day. If I have a bunch of extra stuff I ask for OT or something to be moved off my plate, or I come in a little early. But for me? Breaks are totally flexible still, lunch when I have time etc. If you are going into a job where coverage is really important (like nursing?) then that might be different than if you are going to be hourly but have a job with flexibility (like marketing?).
          Good luck, and give yourself time to adjust.

      2. Bibliovore*

        My first Union job, I did get a talking to for coming in early and not taking my breaks. I would come in a 1/2 hour early to “get settled” and was informed that I wasn’t permitted into the building more than 15 minutes before my shift. The break thing was truly weird to me- two 15 minute breaks a day. they were very serious about it and refused to respond to any work-related questions – even management.

    3. LCL*

      The change from exempt to hourly will be a much bigger shock than the change to being represented by a union. Exempt employees (I am told, never had an exempt job) can put in, more, or less, than 40 hours a week as long as the work gets done. And can adjust their start and stop times. Hourly workers are expected to be there when scheduled, period. If you have to leave an hour early, you will have to take an hour leave. If you work overtime per Canada’s labor laws, you will have to be paid for it. You probably won’t be able to come in an hour early the next morning to make up for the hour you left early yesterday.

      The union may or may not be involved in the work schedule administration. If your work group has anything other than bankers’ hours, there may be different shifts worked within the group. Those shifts may be chosen by seniority. If you have to do shiftwork, which you didn’t say but is suggested by working in healthcare, you are much better off being in a union. I have done shiftwork in union and nonunion jobs…

    4. Sunflower*

      Both an advantage and disadvantage is you work 40 hours a week. Busy weeks you’re either there the the same amount of time or you’re getting overtime. Slow weeks you’re stuck while other people get to cut out early. Have a doctors appt mid-day? Either make up the time later or don’t get paid. It will depend on your schedule and boss how that stuff works though.

      I can not speak about union jobs but i went from exempt to hourly. The biggest thing I’m having trouble with is having to say no more or refuse work. It’s hard because my boss has no problem with it but I’ve never been the type to say no to something if it’s going to take me an extra half hour or hour. However, that changes when you’re non-exempt. It’s up to your boss if you stay the extra time, get paid and do it or if he wants to hand it off to someone else. I am also required to take an hour lunch and am having trouble finding things to do during this.

      It all depends on your position but I am getting a good amount of overtime and I really enjoy that :) I have a set schedule so I am guaranteed work/hours/salary but I get extra on top of that.

      I am planning to post soon in the open thread about going from exempt to nonexempt. I am keeping a running tab of things I am having trouble with and so hopefully these nice people can help me out!

    5. RKB*

      I’m unionized at both of my positions, one is healthcare in Alberta. I only lose about $10/cheque but YMMV since I’m a part time temp. Don’t have much advice about the environment, but healthcare jobs in Canada are amazing. Very stable, lots of room for moving up and improving, lots of conferences and professional development.

      Most promotions take place by hiring through an internal board, especially if you’re unionized.

      I’m in Alberta if that helps.

      1. RKB*

        Also, for AHS there are crazy benefits if you’re FTE. Not so much for 0.4 (like me) or 0.8. My mom has worked in healthcare for 25 years now, and their benefits pay for everything.

        My sister is a nurse and she got her Masters paid through Ontario Health, too.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You should be given a union handbook. Read it, it’s boring, but read it anyway. Don’t rely on other people’s interpretation of what they think the handbook says. Sometimes people will try to help you, “Because we have a union, we do not do X.” Please listen to them. X may seem like a really odd thing to be concerned about but bide your time and you will find out how X became such an issue. Learn who your union rep is, not that you will ever need her, but you should know who she is anyway.

      1. Lia*

        This. I work in a union place, and there are certain oddball things we cannot do because they fall under the purview of the other union here. The big one is moving — we are allowed to pack up our belongings should we move offices, but cannot transport them ourselves, nor load/unload them. Period. It’s weird but we go with it. We also cannot assemble furniture or other items — those are the responsibilities of the other union as well. We CAN unpack items shipped to us, at least.

  11. Nervous Accountant*

    OMG the timing is uncanny. I was going to ask about this all week.

    For various reasons, I usually get ready in the bathroom at work (2 stalls so not taking up any space)…sometimes before I clock in, sometimes after. Usually very quick eyeliner or lipgloss/lipstick..
    Maybe once I did eyeshadow (and I was clocked out at the time).

    A few times my boss has walked in on me getting ready. She’s usually friendly, and hasn’t remarked on it, but I still feel weird when it happens.

    No one has said anything and I wouldn’t be written up over it….but I’m still wondering if this is something that reflects negatively on me. Common sense tells me it shouldn’t, but….never know.

    1. alter_ego*

      I hope not! I’ve gotten ready in the bathroom at work before (like, 10 stalls and 3 sinks, so still totally useable by others) both before work and after if I’ve had plans that require a little more than my usual work efforts. But I guess since almost every single one my coworkers is a guy, I’m unlikely to run into them for them to have an opinion about it at all.

      We actually do have a shower room in our office because so many of my coworkers bike to work/go to the gym before work. So the LW’s issue would never come up in our office. But I can’t use that room to do makeup/hair because the light in there is so. dim. I’m sure I’d end up with a clown face if I tried.

    2. Cordelia Naismith*

      If there’s an additional stall so you’re not preventing other people from using the bathroom if they need it, and if nobody’s said anything to you, I think you’re fine.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well I use the sink, not the stall. I actually wouldn’t feel guilty about using a stall, as long as there were others. (Although a few months ago one bathroom was out of service so I felt totally guilty adn weird about using the remaining stall for ..u know… *actual* reasons, so who knows how I’d be forreal).

    3. Graciosa*

      A lot depends on what you mean by “get ready.”

      Lipstick is totally normal, as people who wear it understand it often needs a touch up during the day. I’m assuming a quick, business-like slick of color rather than getting out special liner brushes and magnifying mirrors.

      Eyeliner – eh. I’m probably wondering why you don’t do this at home, and I suspect I would think you were less together than other people who didn’t do this in the office and come in already completely ready for work.

      But I doubt I would actually say anything.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Yes, this exactly. It sounds like what you’re doing is fine, but it would look a little weird if you had a curling iron and an enormous makeup kit propped up on the sink. And, of course, it would look weird if you were late starting your work because you were getting ready in the bathroom.

        It’s a know-your-office situation, too. Some offices will have stricter/more conservative ideas about professional behavior, and some offices are (almost) anything goes.

    4. Kelly L.*

      I feel bad when someone is putting on makeup in the bathroom in the morning and I need to do bathroom business. It’s not feeling bad at you, it’s feeling bad for you, like “here you are trying to do pretty things, and I’m stinking up the joint, whoops.”

      1. Anon #2*

        Yes! There are a number of women who brush their teeth immediately after lunch. I go in there for a #2 right after lunch. I always want to apologize preemptively.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I guess it’s just me, but I would not be clocked in and putting on makeup. Sometimes it happens that a person has just clocked in and- whoops- need to run to the bathroom. But if I was putting makeup on at work almost everyday or everyday, I would make sure I was not clocked in.

    6. The Strand*

      One of the buildings where I work, the women’s bathroom – on two floors! – has

      -cubbies for people to leave their makeup, toothbrushes
      -a tray for coupons
      -a lending library – one floor it’s more like a few magazines, the other floor they have an entire bookshelf!

      As long as you don’t have someone checking your stall to see if you’re flossing…

      1. hermit crab*

        Cubbies! At my old office we had a sort of combination bathroom/locker room (there were a couple of showers that you could use if you biked to work or whatever). There were cubbies and lots of us took advantage of them. It is SO NICE to be able to keep your tampons in the bathroom. We never had a lending library, though!

    7. Jen*

      If you are not on the clock, it’s a total non-issue. if you are on the clock in a role that requires you to be butt-in-seat (ie a call center or the like), then as long as this takes less than or equal to a typical water break/bathroom trip, it’s fine.

      In general, if you are spending 20 minutes of on-the-clock time putting on make up, it’s not a good idea- just do it before you clock in. I would also say if your getting-ready routine involves spreading your entire makeup bag all over the counter, spraying product, furling your eyelashes, etc. it’s probably time to figure something different out. if you are powdering your nose, adding mascara and slapping on lipstick, carry on with no worry. It’s standard.

  12. OfftheRecord*

    Are early to midlife career switches possible? How did you go about it? Did you go back and get another degree or did you just use the skills you had and apply for entry level in another sector?

    I’m disillusioned with my field, and have been for some time. At this point I think I am beyond the “maybe its just a phase”. This is the kind of career where you have to be really passionate and love the work, because the degree to work in it is expensive and the pay is awful. Universally, it’s not just bad luck in case anyone’s wondering. I’m trying to decide if this is just life and I have to deal with it or if I should pursue switching career fields to something I might enjoy a bit more and be paid quite a bit better.

    1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I’m really curious to hear the answer to this because I am in the same place!

    2. Pep*

      I switched from Human Resources to Marketing when I was 38. I was at a director level and was married/3 kids/house with mortgage. But I hated HR and thought I would suck it up and stick it out until I realized that it meant probably another 30 years of doing a job I hated.

      I had gotten my MBA years before with a marketing concentration but had no actual work experience and didn’t think I could bluff my way through an interview. Luckily a former colleague who knew I wanted to break into marketing contacted me about a marketing position at my old company. It was just a hair over entry level but the pay wasn’t horrible and the job reported to other former colleagues who knew me and my skills, so I got the job. That was 8 years ago and salary-wise I’m almost at where I was when I left HR, but so much happier doing the work I’m doing. I’ve learned new things and have been slowly but surely advancing to mid-level. I’m respected for my skills, work ethic and positive outlook — which is because I’m doing something I actually enjoy.

      For me it was scary and sometimes humbling (to go back to almost entry level), but I feel like I’ve made up for most of the lost time and (more importantly) am so much happier, productive, relaxed, optimistic, etc.

    3. Lucky*

      I was in your position two years ago and the best thing I did was to go to a career coach. She walked me through what I liked about the actual work I do, separate from the industry & sector I was in, helped me to explore & find the field I wanted to move to, and worked with me on my “stories” so that I was able to present my skills & experience in ways that showed my value in the new field. It was a ton of work, but I landed in a great field and great job and am truly feeling fulfilled, productive & happy.

      If you go this way, make sure you find someone who is reputable and recommended. My coach had been doing her work for 10+ years, and had started in the same industry/sector early in her career. Also, her website had detailed recommendations from people I recognized as leaders in my field. Reminds me, I owe her an email.

    4. Dovahkiin*

      Totally possible! I was in publishing, which is “the kind of career where you have to be really passionate and love the work, because the degree to work in it is expensive and the pay is awful.” I really loved it, but had to switch fields when I moved to a new state w/out a publishing industry to take care of a terminally ill parent.

      I made the switch by applying for a mid-level (2-3 yrs exp) position in a different industry that was in the same skill wheelhouse (press/marketing), but that also included skills I wanted to get on a CV to get into the tech industry (website design, growth hacking). I already had tech skills on the side just from personal hobbies, so I didn’t get another degree, I just ran with those skills.

      Being paid more definitely increased my enjoyment of the work I do and life in general! My new field isn’t perfect, but there’s more room for advancement, the day-to-day is more challenging and it’s fun to be learning something new all the time. I don’t have the “making the world a better place” feeling I did from my old job – which is something I need in my life to be fulfilled, so I volunteer a lot, which is easy thanks to the work-to-live not live-to-work culture in my new industry.

    5. LQ*

      After I was laid off I took an entry level job while I looked for adjacent jobs, but not exactly the same kinds of jobs. (The entry level job turned into a higher level job as I was still interviewing so I ended up sticking around here.)

      I think adjacent/transferable skill kinds of jobs are quite easy to switch into without going back for another degree. How can my skills as a teapot maker translate into skills as a teapot QA?

    6. LQ*

      OH! And as a part of the what do I do next, I did a bunch of informational interviews, which were conversations like how did you get here, what do you like about it, what do you hate about it? Etc…

    7. Lib Lady*

      I switched from teaching (in numerous settings for varied populations) to the library field at age 48. It required a masters degree (only 36 hours) which I completed while working part-time in my local library. The librarian field is competitive at this moment in time, so I am not necessarily recommending this particular path, but it has been fruitful for me.

      Going back to school was a little daunting, but I was always a good student and I really enjoyed the intellectual challenge. I love being in a field where I am passionate about the work and I have an opportunity to grow and learn new things every single day. The people who visit tend to be so grateful we are here. Sometimes I think about going back to teaching, but the urge passes in about 37 seconds with a head-shaking No.

    8. Jubilance*

      I switched from a 7yr lab chemist career to a career in supply chain process improvement. I did consider going back to school, but I already have an MS in chemistry and didn’t want to spend more $$$ on another degree. I kinda got lucky and was recruited by my current employer – they have a philosophy that emphasizes core skills, which allowed me to move over to a supply chain analytics/process improvement role.

      I recommend figuring out what skills you have that could translate to the new career path, and emphasizing those in your application materials. Best of luck!

    9. Glasskey*

      YES. I went back to school for a totally different line of work-in health care that required 2 years of prerequisites followed by 4 years of grad school. I started when my youngest was only a year old, taking one class at a time in the evenings, then building up from there. There was so much other stress in my life that I figured I needed something equally intense to counter all of it, I think. It was crazy. And there were more sleepless nights than I could count. I kept saying to myself, “Just one more week and I’m quitting.” I said that over and over until one day I realized I was more than halfway through the program so the message changed to, “well, I’ve made it this far, guess I can’t quit now.” And then one afternoon I had the ability to save my father-in-law’s life–literally–by recognizing something and getting him to the ER and then to emergent brain surgery. And knew I’d made the right decision. One of the joys of going back to school, for me and I think for a lot of older students, is that I knew EXACTLY why I was there and after several years of working in various jobs, I had the maturity and discipline to just power through when the going got tough. While I’m not so happy in my current job and there are a lot of problems and weirdness working in health care overall, I absolutely LOVE the knowledge I have and hardly a day goes by where I am not still thrilled that I took the plunge. Years later, I still have to pinch myself for doing something that nuts–with no caffeine!–when the world was falling down around me.

      1. non-profit manager*

        I love your story. I wrote below that I probably did not need to get a second degree. But your story reminded me that I do really like the knowledge I gained. It’s helped me a lot in my personal life, although it hasn’t translated into $$$$ in any subsequent job.

    10. non-profit manager*

      Yes, I’ve done it twice.

      First time, I did get another degree and entered a new field at 40. I had many transferable skills and started at one step above entry level professional. Mainly because of previous work experience and skills, I advanced rapidly.

      Second time was harder. I did not get a new degree; was 46 and did not see the point. I had been laid off from the previous job because the work I was doing was completely eliminated by our state’s governor. I tried to get into related work, but was competing against a lot of people with more experience and more relevant degrees. I ended up taking a super entry-level position at a non-profit just to make ends meet and have something on my resume. Due to skills and previous work experience, I advanced to my present position with the same non-profit.

      Looking back, I probably did not need to get that new degree. It cost three years of my life (and earnings and contributions to retirement) and I have a modest amount of student loan debt. Where I am now, I am not making nearly as much as I was before, but I realize I am at a non-profit. We are managing, though, and have re-set our lifestyle expectations and we are actually saving more now than ever before. I am happy where I am, which counts for a lot, in my opinion.

    11. The Strand*

      Yes. I got a masters in a different field, while working full-time. The transition took six years rather than overnight. My supervisors knew I was working on my masters and threw me some extended work that tied into it, and I also started focusing on projects I could do in grad school that would make me more employable.
      In my case, I moved from a non-exempt to an exempt position and got a 50% pay bump, but I know – because I was told so more than once – that my extra effort on projects in grad school really sold me as a candidate. It’s expected that career academics would write a journal article or even a book before going at the PhD candidacy, but it’s unusual in other fields where the masters is usually terminal.

      I really love the work I do. And in fact, I loved the work I did before, but I wanted to make more than subsistence wages.

      I really don’t recommend starting over from scratch in this economy. Why apply for entry level if you don’t have to? You probably have a lot of transferable skills.

      If grad school isn’t an option I would say, why not pick up some part-time freelancing or volunteer work in the field you’re interested in. Do informational interviews – the true kind, not the “I’m really trying to get my foot in your door” kind. Figure out if it’s the field, rather than finding a way to work that suits your personality and life better.

    12. jesicka309*

      I switched fields very early in my career (three years after entering the workforce.)

      I worked in media (specifically commercials on TV) and found myself at a bit of a stalemate. I wasn’t engaged in my work and had nowhere to move, but I didn’t find work outside of my field attractive at all.

      I began reskilling after a year in my role through online uni. It still took another 2 years before I had accumulated enough ‘marketing’ knowhow to actually score a job in the field. I’ve now been in marketing for over 2 years.

      While it isn’t always necessary to do a whole new degree, it can be worth taking some courses to get a feel for what you want. My first degree was woefully lacking in any business type courses (accounting, stats, management) that I really needed as a foundation to move outside of media. But I started off doing journalism courses to a. wake up my brain after 1 year of doing nothing, and b. to try and find what I was passionate about before I committed to the three year degree. It helped me realise that I wasn’t locked into my field, and at 22, it’s really hard to stand up and say ‘I chose the wrong degree’. Through doing those early courses, I found marketing. I was able to continue in my dead end media job, but instead of feeling like I was wasting my life, it helped me fund my second degree, and gave me a bit of hope that there was light at the end of the tunnel.

      The role I ended up getting was a media specialist role in a marketing team – the perfect crossover role to help me transition from media into marketing. I recently transferred internally into email marketing, and I couldn’t be happier.

      TLDR: I know that online study in the US is frowned on (I’m in Aus) but if you can pick up a couple of courses in a field that interests you, it can help you decide where your interests lie before committing to a degree, reinvigorate you in your current role by giving you something else to focus on, and by keeping your current role, you don’t take the pay hit immediately.
      It gets better!

    13. Museum Educator to Corporate Trainer/Technical Writer*

      I did it at 37 with a masters in museum education and over a dacade working at educational non profits. My experience was heavy on developing and delivering courses, including technical courses. The pay was abysmal and I just couldn’t afford it anymore so decided to make a switch

      I did that by first deciding what the skills I already had could apply to and what I could do that I would be really good at. After working for passion rather than paycheck for so many years, I was concerned about a change to something boring or stifling.

      So I did a lot of research, studied multiple fields and options that might be right for me, and settled where I was most interested: instructional design. I learned as much as I could, found ways to talk about my museum work as it might apply to ID work, took a bunch of professional development course and got some certifications. I was able to make a very strong case for myself and got an excellent job at a corporation.

      I’m not doing exactly instructional design but moving towards that. I’m doing more technical writing than anything but also some webex training and creating elearning. Plus get a lot of time to be creative and feel like I’m teaching people something, which is what I love to do. I’m moving towards higher and higher goals too.

      The best part? I earn triple what I earned in a museum at director level. You can absolutely make a career change if you want to do it and are willing to put in the effort.

    14. Windchime*

      I switched from medical billing to programming in my very late 30’s….I think I was 39. I had gotten divorced and was making practically no money, barely enough to keep the kids fed and the lights on. So I struggled through several years of community college in a certificate program and managed to get a programming job at the same medical facility I was working on, and I’ve just progressed from there. I don’t have any kind of a degree so it might be the kind of thing that was possible in 2000 but not now, I don’t know.

  13. HigherEd Frustration*

    In the past, I have written about seeking advice about getting a job in Higher Ed. I’m a recent(ish) graduate with about 3-4 years of admin experience. I just need some more advice/vent. I keep getting ALOT of interviews at the University (which I know is really good and also kind of an accomplishment because I’m not really coming from a Higher Ed background and it is very hard to break into Higher Ed), BUT I can’t seem to get an offer. I have received very positive feedback concerning my interview and resume (both solicited and unsolicited), and have been told more than once that they loved me but they went with an internal candidate/more direct experience, but they passed my info along. I guess I would just like to know what that means when they say they passed my info along? Each department seems to hire independently of one another, so I don’t know how much of a help this really is. I’m just very frustrated because I keep getting “you’re great, but just not great enough.” If anyone has any suggestions or tips I’d really appreciate it!

    1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      No real advice besides keep trying.

      I have worked in and around Higher Ed for most of my career. Internal switches, especially at the admin level, are really, really common — and in my experience being an internal candidate gives people this over-the-top edge.

      One of the project coordinators at my last university gig had been there 20+ years and worked for 11 different departments.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, I worked in academia for almost a decade, and it is such a strange environment and so many universities have systems and processes built specifically for them, that it is hard to overcome an internal candidate if you were an external one. I think I largely broke in because I was able to convincingly demonstrate that my student work positions (at different schools than the one I wound up hired by) had made me both familiar with academic admin and helped me learn how to figure out the processes unique to specific schools quickly.

        In your cover letter/interviews try to emphasize anything in your background that demonstrates an ability to quickly get up to speed on a complicated process and also any experience coordinating meetings or activities for people that were higher level than you (academic admins spend a lot of time trying to get faculty or higher level admins to respond to things and it is a highly valued skill set).

    2. Devil's Avocado*

      Oh, I feel you. Here’s a story that helped me in a similar situation (I don’t know if this qualifies as “advice” because it is so me-specific.)

      I’ve been working as an assistant in a small non-profit agency, and as of next week will be starting a new job at a university that is a significant step up for me. I interviewed for 8 university positions in 8 months before getting this offer. In each of my interviews, I think the panel was worried about what a seemingly big jump it would be for me. In the interview that netted this offer, they asked what areas of the job I thought I’d find challenging, and I addressed it upfront by saying I think I have all of the needed skills, but that the switch from a small non-profit to a large university environment might be a challenge, and concisely explained the reasons why I was eager to make the change and how I’d manage the challenge.

      I could see a wave of relief go across their faces – one of the interviewers even said that was his primary concern about my fit for the role, so he was glad I addressed it proactively. I think (because of their polite Canadian nature – seriously, we as a society love to be indirect and polite) they probably wouldn’t have brought that up on their own, so they were relieved that I addressed it so head on.

    3. fposte*

      I’m with Not the Droid–in a milieu like this it’s often about aligning the holes in the cheese so you’re there when an opening goes *all* the way through. You just have to keep plugging away.

      1. Blue_eyes*

        Love the cheese metaphor! And I think you’re exactly right fposte. I’m not sure there’s much that HigherEd Frustration can do to improve their chances except just keep applying to likely openings.

    4. Bo*

      Make sure you’re not applying for just union jobs. Union jobs are almost impossible to get if you’re an outsider because union members get priority for those jobs. Essentially, if you’re not much better than the union pool you won’t move forward because it’s a lot of work bringing in an outsider. If they need someone quickly they are not likely to go through the trouble of hiring an outsider. Same thing really goes for non-union jobs as well because promotion tends to happen internally. All my coworkers have been in my position. Most departments have small staffs (independent of the faculty and post-docs) and growth happens slowly so that makes it challenging to land a spot from the outside.

      I currently work at a university and it took me a long time to get in as well. I applied a lot over the years (I graduated in 2012) but always got passed over as well. I ended up working in 2 small nonprofits between the time I first graduated until a few months ago. Interestingly enough, my current job at the university I’ve always wanted to work at is a union position (which I didn’t know until after I was interviewed). Last year, I started aggressively applying to the university in May. I had at least 10 interviews at the university in various departments and I think the experience I gained working at my old job was what helped me get more interest. I finally got a job here in October.

      I hope that gives you some perspective. But keep applying! My biggest advice would be to keep tweaking your resume until you land something. Your resume is your marketing document so until something works, don’t stop tweaking it. I tweaked my resume at least every other week (I was determined) and it really helped. The interview offers were pouring in, not just from the place I’m at now but all over. If you’re getting a lot of interviews that means you’re doing something right on that end, but when reflecting on your interview really narrow in on what they liked about you and how you can emphasize that.

      Good luck! You’ll seal the deal soon! :-)

    5. Khal E. Eessi*

      I was in the same boat while trying to switch careers to higher ed. Lots of interviews but no offers until one day an offer came! It can take someone months or it can take years, especially for positions that typically hire internally. You have to persevere.

    6. The Strand*

      A lot of schools, there’s a hidden cultural divide between people who came to the university because it’s a solid, local job, and those who come to the university from another location – out of town, out of state, out of the country.

      Some schools attract a LOT of people who are outsiders, and students who stick around after graduation because they fall in love with the area. Others are very townie-centric, especially among the staff. I’ve worked for both types of schools.

      If you’re applying for an admin job you might be competing for people who have lived in the area for decades and moved internally from admin job to admin job, which is basically what my mother’s entire career was made of. When one of the departments she worked for in her career was eliminated, they put a RIF – reduction in force – notice on her, which gave her hiring preference. She knew a lot of people, she knew the internal culture, so it really made a difference.

      I would hang in there. If you’re at a townie-centric place, the best way to get in the door is to find out about their internal temp pool. A former coworker of mine broke in that way at a previous employer. Once they knew and liked her in the temp pool, people were happy to help her get noticed. If they don’t have a temp pool, they probably have a regular contract with a specific company, and they might have temp to perm spots.

      Lots of people are drawn to higher ed admin positions because of their steadiness, but in my experience, entry level IT positions open a lot more frequently. If you have any interest in computing at all, help desk calls are where it all starts, and you learn a lot about the inner workings of an institution – not just the technology. Everyone relies on IT to some degree so you will know people across the institution. I know a couple of people who don’t have bachelor’s degrees who moved into training, or analyst positions, and they started out where they were by being experts at Excel and Office, or being a roving Help Desk person who was good at installing Windows.

      Another door might be through part-time positions such as writing center and other tutoring spots.

    7. ASJ*

      Maybe contact HR to see if there’s a temp list. That’s how I got in at the university where I work. Like the ones above, union jobs were almost impossible for “outsiders” to get. The “secret” was to get on the (unadvertised) temp list via the employment center (as an alumni I had access) and get direct experience with one or more departments. 9 times out of 10 that’s how you get union jobs where I work – I happened to be fortunate in that my first temp job landed me a unionized position. Several others worked as temps for 4-5 departments before getting in.

      Otherwise I strongly second looking for non-unionized positions as those tend to be more open. At least where I am almost all the unionized positions advertised already have someone in mind – but HR forces them to go through the process.

  14. in hiding...*

    We have a new hire, who I am not a fan of and I know somehow I am going to have to work with this person and pretend that I like/ respect them. Any advice on how to work with someone who has an inflated ego and is not very bright? I wear my emotions on my sleeve and am really struggling to keep quiet during certain periods and maintain a neutral face… I’ve resorted to texting a few non-work friends about it, but I know they will be irritated eventually.

    1. afiendishthingy*

      ohhh are you me? Luckily last time this happened to me she didn’t last long, gave notice after like 6 weeks. I definitely did not keep a neutral face, I drove my family and a couple non-work friends nuts complaining about her, and I also ended up complaining way too much about her to some coworkers. I know, I know, unprofessional. But she was always making crazy inappropriate and offensive comments. She actually gave notice 3 days after I pulled her aside to tell her that 1) she couldn’t have conversations in the office in which she referred to her boyfriend’s ex as “whoreface”, “ugly b****” or “the c***”, and 2) it’s inappropriate for nonprofit human services employees to call government aid recipients lazy. But yeah, I have no advice. You know in Mean Girls how Lindsey Lohan starts driving her friend Janis nuts because all she talks about is how much she hates Regina George? That was me. If you dislike someone enough it can become a bit of an obsession. Good luck.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          I did, the day I ended up having that little chat with her. I was in the airport heading to my parents’ house for Christmas when I got her email to the department announcing she was leaving. It was a Christmas miracle.

    2. Juli G.*

      Prepare yourself for interactions. I had this situation and whenever I was setting out to train her or go into a meeting, I would always take a deep breath and remind myself “How I treat her, talk to her, or respond to her reflects on ME, not on her. I need to let her behavior speak for her and mine for me.”

      And in my case, eventually it did after about 8 LOOONG months.

      1. in hiding...*

        Ooo… excellent advice. I don’t think person will last very long, which is what is keeping me going, but I will definitely keep that in mind.

        Thank you!!

    3. Jules the First*

      Oohh errr! Are you me?
      I have no advice, but will be watching out for answers- Useless Girl has passed her probation (I was not consulted :( ) and is becoming insufferable.

    4. Lib Lady*

      I would try finding a way to develop compassion for the other person. For example, if this person has an inflated ego, I might try to assume that is is because the person is really insecure and trying too hard in a new job. Another thing I try to think about is, if this was one of my kids at a new job somewhere, how would I hope others would treat him? In extreme situations, I have imagined that the person has a disability or life condition that is causing behavior beyond his control. It’s about trying to find a compassionate place when it isn’t coming naturally, in order to help the situation instead of making it worse through my own negativity.

      1. RG*

        This. OP, I’m not sure how much interaction you’ve had with this person, but I’m sure you’d agree that it can take some time to feel “natural” in a new job, even at the best places. He/She could just be trying to fit in and prove themselves.

        1. in hiding...*

          Thanks! For the record, it’s not just about it being a new job… I wasn’t crazy about them in the interview process (but waited too long to speak up and they already offered this individual the position). My first impressions are all being validated one by one…

    5. Karowen*

      I’ve found it’s best to keep reminding myself that their ineptitude is their problem, not mine. For the most part it doesn’t help me respect or like them any more, but it does help me not care. Which sounds awful, but it’s the only coping mechanism I have at this point.

      Otherwise, I limit my interactions with them as much as possible. I don’t ignore them if they need my help, but I also don’t go out of my way to offer support like I would with a work friend (i.e. I have a coworker who had a (low-pressure, internal) meeting coming up that I was aware of and I had a really strong feeling he hadn’t prepared for it (because he would’ve been asking for my help if he had). For my friend-coworkers, I’d point it out to them. For him, I treated it more as a learning moment. He’s a grown-up and obviously needs to learn to pay closer attention to his calendar.)

      Also, as you said, having that friend or two that you can go “OMG YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE” is so helpful. I try to keep those for the most egregious occasions, though, because if I texted every time my coworker did something idiotic my friend would probably kill me. But the racist and misogynistic comments go straight to her.

    6. Ad Astra*

      Try to find and focus on the good in this person. Even if he is overall a complete dud of a person, there’s got to be some positive quality there, right? Identify it and hold on for dear life.

      Also, the combination of an inflated ego and not-so-impressive intelligence often translates to insecurity. So remind yourself that he’s acting this way because he actually cares what you and others think of him.

    7. Argh!*

      I have worked with lots of annoying people. Just focus on work and don’t judge. There’s really no point in doing that. Find what you can like or respect about the person and forget the rest if you must analyze them.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I think that sometimes aiming for liking and respecting a cohort is a bit much. How about aiming for baseline respect. You know, the level of respect any fellow human being should get. The part about liking him is easier to work through because not everyone is for everyone. Some times we just don’t like someone for any number of reasons.

    9. Chex Mix*

      My advice is to work professionally with them and do as you are told with regards to training the new hire. Don’t assume they are going to fail, try to be open minded about it.

      I’m coming from the other side of this though. At oldJob some team members made it clear to me very early on that THEY did not want to hire me and that I was clearly “just a good interviewer”. They did not make learning my job easy, but 2 years later I was promoted above all of them so I guess it worked out.

    10. NicoleK*

      Been there…done that. Hopefully you don’t share responsibilities or projects with her. It’s more tolerable when you can work around someone like that. At ex job, boss brought on someone who was immature, unprofessional, had poor judgment, and unreliable. I couldn’t work with her. I couldn’t work around her. Boss did nothing about it. So I left.

  15. Lefty*

    Just thinking about this and looking for experience/input from others who may have done it…

    I’m considering a move from Federal (GS) work as a mid-level manager to the civilian/industry workforce. Have you ever gone from GS to civilian work? Were there things you didn’t expect (and what were they)? Things you’d recommend that I consider? Pros/cons/perks/reality checks? Thanks!

    1. Mockingjay*

      Is it civilian or federal contractor? If contractor, be aware that your livelihood can cycle around a yearly task order or contract. Even a 5-year, fully funded program can have a hiatus (read: furlough) when the Contracts department doesn’t execute your company’s yearly order on time (because 107 other contracts are also being renewed at the start of the new fiscal year!).

      If truly civilian (private industry): enjoy the lack of bureaucracy!

      1. Lefty*

        I’d be considering non-contract jobs; I actually shifted from contract to GS a few years ago and cannot see myself doing that again since it’s particularly tumultuous in our program. Thanks for the thought though! It’s very true that your livelihood (and benefits and hours and management) can cycle around that yearly deadline.

        1. Caffeine Free*

          When you say a few years ago? Will you be eligible for reinstatement and allowed to apply internally if you decide to come back to the government work? Is it just 3 years required? May be something to think about.

          1. Lefty*

            I’ve been GS for 6 years, at my current level for 2+ (would be 3 by the time anything could pan out)… great thing for me to consider, thank you! I do believe I’ll be eligible for reinstatement in the future.

    2. Red Wheel*

      Did it.
      Sharp adjustment from the mentally of the creator of the work/need to the executor or do-er of the work.
      I did not expect the level of decision paralysis that exists
      Don’t underestimate the level of internal bureaucracy and internal politicking that exists in the private environment. The attention to cost and profit pervades all.
      Pro: better $$
      Cons: longer hours, much less vacation time, other things mentioned above.

      1. Lefty*

        All great points- I appreciate the feedback!

        Did you stay in an industry/job closely related to what you previously were doing? I’m considering it because I love the industry, but the promotion potential is practically nonexistant here in this GS niche.

        1. Red wheel*

          I am in same career field but in a different industry. So fo example, I was previously worked in hr at a government agency that makes teapots. I now work in hr in a company that makes soap.

  16. Meg*

    Happy Friday, everyone! I have a question about working from home and how to propose that to your boss. Our department is small, and one of my colleagues works from home one day per week. Our director mentioned off-hand that if anyone else wants to work from home, we can discuss. But I’m not sure how to bring it up!

    My work is very easy to do from home, and I don’t have a lot of meetings in my job, so I don’t think the scheduling would be an issue. But I’ve only been here for about a year, so I’m not sure if they’ll think I “deserve” it! And as for the initial conversation, I don’t really feel like I have a good “reason” for working from home that I can use to justify it–I don’t have a tough commute or anything like that. I love my job, but the monotony of coming into the same office every day really does take its toll on me. I’m a total homebody, and I work well from home.

    Has anyone had this conversation? Any tips?

    1. Elle the new Fed*

      Do you have regular check ins with your boss? That’s a good time to bring it up. I did that with mine and said, “I was thinking now that I’ve been here X months, I’d like to try working from home on Mondays.” and we went from there.

    2. the_scientist*

      So my employer has an official work from home policy- all employees (job duties permitting) are able to work from home up to two days per week. The rules are that you have to have passed your 6-month “probationary” employment period, and that your manager has to approve your WFH schedule. Employees are expected to stick to a schedule- like working from home every Friday, for example, and to ensure that they can get their work done from home (some of our data is housed on servers that can’t be accessed remotely due to privacy concerns).

      Several of my teammates WFH every Friday. I’m like you in that I’d LOVE to WFH but feel like I don’t have a “reason” (my coworkers have young kids, long commutes, or both). I basically just am feeling a bit overwhelmed with my life at the moment and would absolutely love to stay home and wear slippers and PJs and sit on the couch while I work. I’ve been at this job for a year, so I’m eligible to WFH but am stalling on actually asking for it as well!

      Anyway, I think the best way to approach it is 1) to see if there’s a policy of any kind and then 2) just matter of factly ask and see what your boss says. The worst thing that happens is that they say no, right? And if they do let you work from home, make an effort to be *extremely* responsive on days that you’re at home so that everyone knows you’re not slacking off.

      1. Elle the new Fed*

        I REALLY dislike having a “reason” like kids to be able to work from home. I’m a Fed (obviously) and my agency is really strict on what is allowed and having kids home while you WFH is strongly on the do not list. I know that’s not always the case and a lot of people abuse the system, but saying you have to work from home because of kids is a huge no.

        I do not have kids nor even a pet, and I still love my WFH days because I don’t have a 1.5 hr commute AND I don’t have to listen to my coworkers talking nearby when I’m trying to concentrate. Wins all around :)

        1. jeanne*

          I agree that you shouldn’t need to have a “reason” to work from home, but I think the reason parents often appreciate working from home isn’t actually about having the kids home with them. It’s often because the daycares and schools have strict schedules and the at home flexibility makes things easier. If you need to drop your kid off at school at 8:30 you may get stuck in traffic at the height of rush hour and would get in late and need to work late (probably missing dinner with the family etc) to get in a full day. Or in my case, my children go to daycare, but I can save the cost of 2 hours of daycare time with the same workday by skipping the commute.

          1. the_scientist*

            Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at. To be clear, my company is very pro WFH and doesn’t discriminate in who’s allowed and who’s not allowed to do so. It’s all in my head that I feel like I don’t have a good enough reason.

            1. Windchime*

              I don’t have kids at home any more and I still cherish and protect my one day of telecommuting per week. The main reason is that I get so much more done because there are no distractions. I feel like I get a lot of good thinking done on that day because I’m at home in my jammies or sweatpants. Nobody is there to interrupt me with questions and there are no distractions other than the cat trying to help me type.

              The increased focus and ability to concentrate is a great reason for me. Maybe that would work for you, too?

          2. Elle the new Fed*

            I get it, but I hear so often about it being applied only people with kids because of the reasons you mention. I was trying to articulate that appreciate when it’s given equally to all regardless of child status.

    3. BRR*

      First see if there is an official policy. If your director mentioned it already, then I bet they won’t care if you bring it up. It sounds like they are pro WFH. If you have check ins I would bring it up then or if you catch them asked if they have a couple minutes for you to talk. I would just say, “You mentioned previously working from home. Do you think it would be possible for me to work from home one day a week/mondays/fridays?” The fact they have brought it up it a good sign.

      1. BRR*

        Also you don’t need some sort of special reason. It could be you hate driving. You can work in silence. You can get 30 min extra sleep. You don’t have to get ready in the morning.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Oh my God, I’m tired and my neck still hurts and I read that as “how do you propose to your boss,” and I was about to start frantically typing “AACK! NO! NO DON’T DO THAT!”

    5. Jen*

      I have had remote people (full time) and had in-office people WFH. I think at your next 1:1, you should say something like “I’d like to try to start WFH on [day of week]s; what would you think about starting this Friday and seeing how it goes?” Then do your job. Be online and logged in the entire time. Do not be late to calls. Do not have children or construction or laundry or who knows what noise in the background when you hop on a call. Make sure your team members know how to reach you (via IM, phone, whatever) and BE REACHABLE. Then the next day, poke your head into your boss’s office and ask if s/he had any issue with your WFH yesterday, did you miss anything in the office, etc. Assuming it went well, proceed the next week. After you have a couple of months of one-day-a-week down, if you want to do more, broach it then.

      I cannot stress this enough- working from home full time/on the regular is NOT the same as “school is closed and the kids are home and i’m stuck with them. I will do my best to log in and get something done as not to waste the entire day, but I can’t promise anything because my house will be filled with 2 crazies”

      I really don’t think you need a “reason” per se; but you could always say “for scheduling reasons, WFH would work really well me for me on X day each week”. Who cares if that schedule is not putting on pants til noon? (warning: we make our remotes video in to a lot of meetings! but we are a very remote friendly/technology ready company)

  17. Lauren*

    I’m interviewing for jobs in Denmark. Any expats here? So many things I know nothing about. Please everyone who knows this stuff – feel free to pile on information.

    – How does medical insurance work? Can I have access without being a citizen?
    – Taxes, Am I going to be taxed by Denmark, the municipality, and the US?
    – Is it true vacations can’t be taken for 1.5 years in the EU? Saw this on a website about Denmark specifically.
    – What kind of salary should I ask for to account for the taxes? 30% over market rate for here?
    – Any glassdoor sites for EU countries with salary info?
    – How about apartment hunting? Do I need a lawyer for the contract?
    – How long are work contracts usually for?
    – What can I negotiate for relocation expenses? Flights, moving costs? What is acceptable?

    I’m giving a presentation next week for a 2nd round interview, and I want to know what interviewers look for when it comes to work culture too. Denmark is very team oriented and flat hierarchy so I am happy about that, but what tips would you have for speaking to EU interviewers?

    Thanks!
    Lauren

    1. Tau*

      So I can’t help you with most of this, because I have never lived in Denmark, haven’t actually lived in the US since I was a kid and am a dual US/EU citizen so a lot of stuff doesn’t apply. HOWEVER, taxes I have looked into and know something about:

      You do have to file US tax returns as a US citizen even if you’re living abroad. However, if you’re genuinely living and earning money abroad, you can exclude up to a certain amount of your earnings from US taxes automatically. I believe that amount is around $100k, so if you’re earning less than that, it’s pretty easy and no taxes need to be paid. If you are earning more than $100k per year (lucky!), it gets more complicated – there’s a thing where you can offset tax paid in the foreign country against the taxes you would be paying in the US and if it comes out to more (which it will generally do in the EU) you don’t have to pay any US taxes, but apparently this gets pretty tricky especially combined with excluding income up to the boundary from taxes and you probably want to talk to some sort of tax advisor to hash it out.

      I’d also be surprised if you needed a lawyer for the apartment contract, but that’s me extrapolating from the UK and Germany somewhat so take it with a grain of salt.

    2. kanelsnegle*

      I am an EU citizen and have been living in Denmark for about 2 years (moved for a job). I will try and help a little if I can –
      – You will be entitled to public health insurance as soon as you register and get your CPR number and yellow health insurance card. You will need your CPR number for everything, from opening a bank account to renting a flat. Registering is one of the first things to do. My company provided help with this.
      – Taxes: not my strong point, but if you are a resident here and are working here I believe you would have to pay taxes to Denmark
      – for salary, I take home about 61% of what I own in brut salary every month – so 39% taken of. This number includes what I contribute to my pension. The percentage depends in what income band you are.
      – Where did you hear that about the 1.5 years? It is not something I have ever heard about. I got 18 vacation days my first year of employment then about 25-30 days the second year. This is purely holidays, sick leave is not included in those days.
      – If you are thinking of living in Copenhagen, then be warned that apartment hunting is hard. It can take months (3 seems to be average) and be prepared to give 2-3 months of rent upfront as a deposit. As far as I hear, it is easier in the rest of Denmark. My company provided me with a flat for 3 months when I moved here to give me time to find my own.
      -You do not need a lawyer to sign the rental contract.
      – Contracts tend not to be for a set period (unless there are particular circumstances that make the job temporary, for example a maternity leave cover which would normally be a year contract).
      – My company paid for the relocation of my furniture – but it was from another country in the EU, I am not sure what you could ask for from the US.
      Just as an aside, you can get free danish courses for up to 3 years after moving, it is a great way to meet people and provides a subject of conversation with Danish colleagues (it is quite hard to pronounce I find)
      I hope this helps a little

      1. Lauren*

        Thank you all!

        I’ve heard about an expat tax of 25% for the first 3 years, but it does sound like its related to income in a way and goes up to 44%. In the US, I would be at $115,000 for salary, but not sure what that is for there. Any ideas on how to find Denmark salary averages by industry? Or is it x% more or less depending on origin. I will likely qualify for the pay limit visa so I’m hoping things will go well. The company operates in English, and I’ve already been fast tracked to a group interview that I had today, and for a presentation interview for 2 weeks from now.

        Everywhere i look, I see 5 weeks entitled, but not able to use for 1 year at least depending on when you start the job, and if you start before May 1 or after. So I need to be employed for a full year, then I can use it when the next May 1 comes around. If I start in January 2016, I am not eligible until May 2017. But if start May 2, I am not eligible until Mary 2018. I wish it would accrue and let me take as I can.

        I’m not taking furniture. I will likely sublet a furnished place until I can find a place that I like – then buy some furniture. I know about the 3 month of rent upfront, so I am ok with that. What about credit checks for apartments?

        Thanks!

        1. Kanelsnegl*

          I was curious so I checked my contract, I got 3 days of holidays in the first 4 months then 15 days from begging of month 5. The rest of the holiday days were accrued over the next 9 months. I realize this is a very specific example – from what I read the holidays are accrued at a rate of about 2 per month as per the Danish agreement. Probably an expat group could be of more help.
          I only learnt about credit scores while reading AAM and other blogs – for renting a flat all I was asked for was a proof of employment, my cpr number and 3 months salary.

    3. Caffeine Free*

      Take the time to look up “US Denmark tax treaty”. Then check out blogs and forum posts on the tax issue.

      My experience as an expat in another EU country was similar to Tau’s, in that you will have to file US taxes. I did not owe US income tax due to being under the income amount stated (~100k) but as a self employed person I did pay SS. I also paid taxes in my country of residence. Looking up the specific tax treaty for Denmark would be a good place to start to figure this stuff out.

      What you reference about vacations does not apply across the board to the EU. If it has something to do with Denmark that would be a different story.

      Perhaps you could look for a local expat group on fb or elsewhere that might be better equipped to answer your questions as they are all pretty location specific.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I don’t know about Denmark, but I live in another EU country and there are various expatriate associations. Some of them produce “How to relocate here and not go completely bonkers” guides, so I would suggest trying to see if there is an equivalent.

      2. Worker Bee Germany*

        Regarding Taxes. From personal experience I can recommend the website taxback dot com. I am not an expert but I am certain that you’ll pay taxes in Denmark. The website helps you claim them back when you return home. They charge a percentage (I think it was about 12%, but it was 3 years ago, so it might have changed) of the amount they will get back for you. For me it was totally worth every cent not having to deal with it. The only downside to it was that if I had to talk someone (everything is done through an online system and emails) I had a hard time understanding them bc both calls I made were answered by Eastern European or maybe Russian staff. Very heavy accent…

  18. Jerzy*

    Here’s a somewhat work-related question for you fine people: How do you figure out where to live when both people in the relationship work, and have kids? My husband bought our current house based on where he had been working at the time, and 4 months later lost that job and ended up working closer to where he had been living before. His current commute is awful, and we’re thinking of moving soon anyway, and he’d like to find a way to shorten his commute. That would almost certainly mean moving up to 30 or 40 minutes from where we are now.

    My opinion is that because of our son (and hopefully other kids in the near future), I prefer to put more weight on the fact that we live near family who are more than willing to help out when needed.

    Anyone have any advice on this one? We’ve been back and forth a million times on where we should move, and there just seems to be no easy solution.

    1. Sualah*

      Is there a way to help with his commute that isn’t necessarily shortening it? I mean, are there any sorts of public transport he could take? I moved technically closer to my work when I bought a house, but now there are no convenient buses/bus stops, so I have to drive instead of taking the bus, and it’s really a bummer. It was great to decompress and not worry about traffic or wear and tear on my car. So if you look for a house that’s closer to a park and ride sort of situation, but still close to family, that could be a compromise.

      1. Jerzy*

        It’s funny that you mention that. One location he recently brought up would move us closer to a ferry that, while doesn’t take him close to his current office, could take him to the HQ and would have the potential for other locations in and near the city, should he start looking for another job. This town is also closer to my parents than we had been looking and still close enough to my current place of work.

      2. Clever Name*

        In the last city we lived in we moved to a location closer to my work, but the commute ended up taking longer due to traffic than where we lived before, so that sucked. So take into consideration traffic patterns. A greater distance may actually be faster because you can take a less-crowded highway rather than deal with stop-and-go surface road traffic.

    2. Kenzie*

      When we moved, we found a spot that is further from my husbands work than mine (25mi vs 15mi) but his route to work on the turnpike takes just as long as my shorter route in traffic. Can you take a look at possible commuting conditions and see if you can find a place that is near the middle in terms of drive time, not distance?

      Also how important is the fact that family are close? Do they watch your son every day afterschool, or is it more of a emergency/school closing type situation? And how would a possible 30min drive affect them helping out?

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Speaking from experience, if the next place you are moving to would be during school years, I would base it on school district quality first then proximity to helpful family members. That was the biggest part of the purchase of our current home. It’s in a fantastic school district. At the time I was 15 minutes from my office. Now I’m almost an hour away. So, that sucks. Also at the time, my retired in-laws were 15 minutes away too. Now they are an hour and a half but grandma doesn’t mind driving down to help for any reason.

      1. Marketeer*

        I second checking the school district. I have a long commute so while I’m looking for something closer to my job, I always check the district first.

    4. IT_Guy*

      IMHO, it’s all about the kids. Find the best school in the area that is a reasonable drive, and look there. We lucked out and are living in a really small semi-rural school that has awesome academic ratings. The downside is that it’s on the edge of the city and I spend waaaaaay to much time commuting. It’s worth it though.

    5. BSharp*

      Oh, that’s hard. My husband and I are looking to be within walking distance of close friends—there’s a clump of 10 families we know in an older (read: affordable) neighborhood in a good school district. But it means his commute goes up, and we’re further from family and church.

      For us, we want our future kids to be able to walk alone to visit friends, and to be able to literally pop next door to borrow a cup of sugar or have a cup of tea. We already have to drive to work/family/grocery stores, so the slight increase isn’t a big deal.

      But, commuting gets really expensive. 2x/day, usually 5 days a week, gas + car maintenance + wear & tear + sometimes insurance increases. But his time and stress level is the biggest cost. That’s just brutal. For us, since we share one car, it will mean two hours a day in the car for me if I need to drop him off.

      We’re going for it, because he only works 3 days a week, and we don’t know that he’ll have this job forever. But it is really, really tricky.

    6. Clever Name*

      Are you okay with your kids changing schools? What is your commute like? Are they in opposite directions/across town from each other? What about daycare? There are so many moving parts to this type of decision- it’s tough!

      When husband and I decided to move, we knew we wanted to keep our son at his current school. Luckily our district is really flexible about “choicing” into schools outside of your neighborhood, so we didn’t have to stay in our old neighborhood (which we didn’t want to stay in). But, we still needed to be a reasonable distance from his school. We ended up moving to a house that increases husband’s commute by like 5 minutes but shortened my commute by 10. And it’s 10 mins from son’s school. Luckily both our commutes are pretty awesome, as it takes me 20 mins to get to work and it probably takes husband about the same. I totally understand wanting to reduce the commute time, but consider whether you think you’ll be at your house longer than your husband will be at his job. That’s another consideration as well.

    7. LCL*

      30 or 40 minutes? If you are in the US, and you are talking 30 or 40 minutes by car, to go visiting, that’s practically nothing. Family can still help out, if the drive is that short. I don’t have kids. We did buy our house based on minimizing our commutes, because that 30 or 40 minutes extra every day really adds up. But if you are just worried about being closer for visits, I would go with the move. Assuming that closer for his job doesn’t mean farther away for yours.

    8. A Non E. Mouse*

      Totally second (third? fifth now?) the comment to worry about school district, then family, then commute. In that order. That is precisely the degree in which my life can fall apart/I can fix it each morning or afternoon with my three children.

      As for the commute itself, I also agree that you would need to worry less about actual distance, and more about available routes and how long those routes actually take/what those commutes are actually like. An hour commute to travel 20 miles in traffic is awful, but an hour commute to travel 45 miles of highway with city streets on either end…not as terrible, and certainly not as stressful.

  19. Ineloquent*

    My coworker is recently back from successfully beating back a bout of cancer with radiation treatments. I feel like a horrible person because I’m irritated that she seems to have forgotten everything she needs to know to do her job, and she is a glacially slow learner. She’s producing less than a tenth of the output she should be handling a month after her return, and is monopolizing huge chunks of the teams time to train and retrain her in the work she does. She takes extensive notes, but it doesn’t seem to help.

    I really feel terrible for being so grouchy about the whole thing, but I can’t be taking on all the work she’s not doing. I’m already at max capacity, and I need to train her in additional, harder tasks before the summer when I will be going on maternity.

    Does anyone here have experience coming back from cancer treatment with chemo brain? Is there anything that you found that is helpful to you that I can try here?

    1. Temperance*

      No advice on “chemo brain”, but I used to work at a place where my counterpart just did NOT retain information and constantly asked me how to do tasks that he should have learned. I referred him to the manual. Can you do that with your coworker?

      1. Ife*

        I am that person who can’t retain information, even without chemo! However, nobody has ever noticed because I take copious, extensive notes and save all my emails, etc. If I don’t remember something, I take a look through my notes, and usually I have the procedure documented with screenshots and details of “on the X screen, choose option A, not option B.”

        I’m not sure if there’s a way to suggest it to the coworker or a manager, but perhaps if there is not an existing manual, the recovering coworker could create one by taking notes? I don’t know how I would start that conversation, though.

        1. Ineloquent*

          She does. Even with these notes, a transaction that takes me 15 minutes or less to accomplish is taking her a day and a half. This is not an exaggeration. When a situation arises that isn’t in her notes, she freezes up and takes no action – not looking in her emails or the job aids I’ve created, or even asking me, usually. I think this last bit is mostly that she’s hesitant to interrupt the work I’m doing, even though I’ve told her to please do so if she needs help. She doesn’t start any other work while she’s stuck either – as far as I can tell it’s totally lost time. I’ve taken to stopping over at her desk daily to see if she has any open concerns.
          I realize that I’m kind of painting her in a bad light, but these are issues that are legitimately true. She’s super nice, handles certain minor aspects of her job splendidly, and has more than 30 years of experience in a related field. It turns out that the experience didn’t translate as well as we’d hoped when we hired her. The aspects she’s struggling in are key tasks, which can’t be pushed to others, put off, or ignored. Failure to do them in a timely fashion that’s compliant with law could cost my company incredible sums of money.
          I don’t want to give her up as a lost cause, but the obvious options aren’t working well, I have no real authority over her, my managers aren’t connected in enough to see the problem and address it, and there’s a really serious business need that’s going to be a huge problem. I know the answer is to let people fail sometimes, but I really do want to help.

        2. Jinx*

          I created an organizational system on OneNote shortly after starting my current job, and it saves my life on a daily basis. I have notes on systems I’m working on, lists of problems I’ve run into and how I solved them, how-tos about complex things I don’t do very often, you name it. People think I have a good memory, when what I actually have are really good notes.

    2. LotusEclair1984*

      What was she like as a coworker before radiation treatments? You feel guilty about your frustration, which is a good indication that you do have a moral compass. But from a rational perspective, your need to train her before your maternity leave might not align with her ability to retain information and receive training in her current condition/disability. Have you discussed the possibility of getting additional help with your manager?

    3. fposte*

      I’m with the very delicious LotusEclair–raise this with your manager. “Jane is understandably still nowhere near 100%, and I can’t stretch thin enough to cover what her position needs; I’m also concerned about the need for her to take on my workload when I’m out on leave when she’s already struggling. Can we get some workload help until she’s back up to speed?”

    4. Ineloquent*

      Unfortunately, there isn’t a manual, exactly. I’ve written work instructions for her before that are very detailed, but she just doesn’t use them. Prior to the cancer treatment, she was already a very slow learner, but now retention and confidence seem to be further deteriorating her ability to pick this up. She is also practically computer illiterate, which complicates the issue.

      I’ve raised the staffing issue with my management team, and I’m trying to do it both truthfully and diplomatically, but I don’t think they’re understanding the severity of the problem. I have no on-site management, you see, so I’m stuck in a pseudo-supervisory role without the additional pay or authority that comes with it. I’ve been told that I’ll get an additional head, but I’m not sure if they mean that they’ll be making my contractor a full time employee (which really won’t assist with the workload issue, since it’s not really additional hands) or if they hire another person to pick up slack. If they do, I will have to train them from scratch since this is a specialized niche field with few qualified folks, and fewer still who will relocate to my city. Basically, it comes down to if we do hire someone, it needs to be before March in order to have them adequately trained to handle the most basic tasks before I leave on June 2.
      In the event that I don’t get the staff I need in time (which is depressingly likely), I’d like to get this employee to the point where she at least won’t be a drain on the department’s really short resources, but my training methods (showing and reshowing) don’t seem to be working. I don’t have much extra time to spend on her either, so I really don’t know what to do. I don’t want her to lose her job, certainly, though right now she’s not looking like a great fit.

      1. Granite*

        Tough situation. Is there another department where she might be a better fit? From your description, it sounds like she knows she’s not a good fit, but between still feeling unwell and lacking confidence is unlikely to be successful moving on on her own. If she would likely do better in a different position, it would be kind of the company to offer to transfer her. And perhaps your management would be more responsive if you could give them a specific suggestion like that? Wish I had a better suggestion. It’s good of you to be patient, but you can only go so far and still keep the business running.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Managers need to realize that the problem will impact the bottom line–you mentioned that not completing the tasks she needs to do could cost the company huge amounts of money? I’d frame it this way. I like Granite’s suggestion about suggesting a transfer, also. But management needs a fire lit under them, it seems.

  20. Bo*

    I currently work as an admin secretary at a university and I just landed a job interview in another department in the area of development. I had a phone interview yesterday and it went really well. She asked me to come in for an in-person interview right on the spot. I really hope it comes through but I’m still a little worried.

    I have been feeling stuck for a long time and I am just tired of being an admin. I’ve only been working in my current department for about 3 months. While I generally enjoy my coworkers, the faculty, students, and my boss is pleasant most of the time, I’m just terribly frustrated with the lack of trajectory in my career and I want & need to move on. Going into this job, I knew this would just be my foot in the door because I was desperately trying to find something secure so I could quit my last job. I’ve always wanted to work at this school, just not necessarily in this role.

    I feel a little worried though because I want to be able to leave on a positive note but given my research about how to go about leaving a job early, I’m concerned that may not be possible. I’ve read so many articles that say it will reflect poorly on you to leave a job so soon. That’s even said here on this blog. They say you should just stick it out for a minimum of a year or longer. But I really don’t have time for that! I’m not getting any younger and as I get older and see life pass me by (I’m in my mid 20’s), I have come to the understanding that life is too short to stay stuck and I’ve done that too many times for far too long. I’ve seen others do it as well and I don’t want that for myself anymore. I guess I know what I want to do, I’m just concerned about how it will impact other people (like my boss, my coworkers).

    I haven’t gotten the job yet or anything, but it doesn’t hurt to start thinking about this now.

    1. super anon*

      would you be doing an internal transfer to another position within the same org? in that case, i think it would be seen differently. in my dept (also at a uni) it’s common for people to get hired as our receptionist and then move to a different role within the dept after a short amount of time. there’s currently 3 people working in different roles here who started out at the reception desk.

      1. Bo*

        Yes it’s at the same (rather large) organization but just in a different department. I guess that qualifies as an internal transfer, or maybe a semi-internal transfer.

    2. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      As a hiring manager, I have always seen internal transfers/promotions as a good thing!

    3. Dawn*

      I say this with gentleness and with love, because I have been there. I hope that my reputation as a commenter on this site will help you understand where I’m coming from when I say this:

      You need to take a serious step back and slow your roll. Leaving your position after three months will absolutely make you look like a flake no matter how you handle it. It sounds like you’re new to working in this workplace entirely, which will doubly make you look like a flake because you haven’t built a reputation there yet.

      “lack of trajectory in my career”- You say you’re in your mid-20s. Your career is just starting, and unless you’re doing something that has an absolute clear-cut trajectory (like a tradesman where it goes apprentice- junior- senior- lead) you have no idea about how your career is going to pan out.

      I completely and totally get that you’re feeling stuck right now. Everyone feels like that in their jobs at some point, some people feel like that for a long time. Getting where you want to go from where you are now is NOT going to just be handed to you, it’s not something that’s going to happen because you ask for it, and it’s not something that’s going to happen because you hop on to the next new and shiny job as soon as the polish wears off- that might not be what you do, but the way you describe feeling stuck at a lot of places and feeling stuck now it sounds like as soon as the novelty wears off and you get down to the day-to-day stuff you lose your enthusiasm and want something new and shiny.

      Everyone has to slog in a job. EVERYONE. Everyone has jobs where it feels like a chore. Everyone’s had to put in their dues and show up even though they don’t want to at some point in their career. I’m not talking about putting up with an abusive job or anything like that, or just grinning and bearing it when you’ve been there five years and there’s no chance of growth or change. I’m talking about understanding that after three months on a job the novelty wears off and you’re going to have to face the fact that it’s a slog sometimes.

      If you get this other position and leave your current job after 3 months it will absolutely poison everyone’s opinion of you. That might not bite you in the butt later… but chances are it will. You’re not currently “stuck”- it sounds more like you’re going through a quarter life crisis and wanting a more bohemian Urban Outfitters catalogue of a life and are kinda pissed that reality is way more like a late-night infomercial most of the time.

      I get it. I feel ya. When I was in my mid-20s I was doing something completely unrelated to my degree after finding out that I hated the field my degree was in and felt like I had be totally screwed over by life and wasn’t ever going to get anywhere. Now I’m in my early 30s and am going into my fifth year in a career I never even imagined myself being in and which I ended up in by accident. How did I end up in this career? I got a job at a company that saw potential in me because 1- I had great references from all the other slog jobs I’d ever done where I showed up with a smile on my face anyway and made a fantastic impression on everyone and 2- I showed great competency at the day to day slog of the job I’d been hired for and when a permanent position opened up I was given the choice of growing the slog job I’d been hired for or going and helping another growing division with something else new. I took the “something else new” job, slogged through the growing pains associated with that, and now (four years later) I’m at a different company with a ton more responsibility, great visibility, learning all kinds of stuff, and with a clear idea of where I want to go from here and how I’m going to get there. AND IT’S STILL A SLOG 60% OF THE TIME.

      Bottom line- no, don’t leave after 3 months. It’s a bad idea, there’s a reason everyone says it’s a bad idea. Deal with the slog, do a kickass job at the slog for at least a year (preferably 2), impress the pants off of everyone, and *then* start thinking about moving on to something else. You’re not stuck- you’re just in your mid-20s. Everyone feels stuck in their mid-20s.

      2. Bo*

        “You’re not currently “stuck”- it sounds more like you’re going through a quarter life crisis and wanting a more bohemian Urban Outfitters catalogue of a life and are kinda pissed that reality is way more like a late-night infomercial most of the time.”

        Well, that’s rude. This is not how I would characterize myself at all, nor would anyone that knows me or my work ethic. I’m not naive and I don’t expect anything to be handed to me. I’m not some entitled millennial with grandiose expectations of having some cushy job with an office and a company car by my current age. I’ve had my share of slog experiences (professionally, in education and in life in general). As a Black woman in America, I can make the argument that most of my life thus far has been a slog. So I really resent this characterization and attitude towards my comment. Furthermore, I have no reason to take what you had to say with any gentleness or love because I don’t know you (or care about your reputation as a commenter) and you’ve clearly made gross assumptions. You could have disagreed with me or offered your protest without that comment or the haughtiness.

        With that aside, I’ll just take the meat and throw out the bone (I could have done that initially, but I needed to address the rudeness). I do understand that leaving this job is probably more likely to make me look bad than not and that’s not something that sits well with me. I have the bubble guts just thinking about wanting to do this. I just wanted to have an honest conversation about what I’m going through right now- politics and rules of convention aside. Despite your tone and assumptions, I do appreciate your perspective.

        1. Dawn*

          OK, cool beans. I was offering my perspective from the other side of being in my mid-20s.

          Shortened version:
          Leaving after three months isn’t going to look good. I wouldn’t recommend it if you are looking to remain at the same university. Being stuck is a universal feeling, and not wanting to continue being an admin is understandable. If the new job would get you out of being an admin, awesome- just realize that taking it might/probably will come with an irreparable blow to your reputation at your current university that may follow you on to other jobs.

        2. Rat Racer*

          I think it’s important to remember that your career is a marathon, not a sprint. I remember so clearly being in my mid-twenties and thinking “I graduated from [very expensive ivy league] college for this?”

          Hard to tell whether your internal transfer will be damaging or put you on a better trajectory. Whatever you decide, just want to reassure you that what you’re doing in your mid-twenties (for me, the range was from filing, xeroxing, fixing broken xerox machine, bate stamping, playing minesweeper on my computer) is does not set the trajectory for the rest of your career. Hang in there… (which doesn’t mean hang onto your current job necessarily – just don’t be disheartened if your current job or next job, or job after that, doesn’t use your brain to its fullest capacity.)

          1. Bo*

            That’s what I hope it would do [put me on a better trajectory]. I don’t really like the trajectory of a secretary in this department. My coworkers have all had my job before me but seeing what they do I think it’d just be a lateral move (we all do pretty much the same things just for different groups). And that’s only if they stay. They’ve been here for a while and I don’t see them leaving any time soon, which means I’ll be stuck for an indeterminate amount of time…as a secretary. I’m trying to hang in there though.

            Thanks for your comment!

        3. I rarely comment on a comment but...*

          Dawn took the time to write 8 paragraphs of spectacular advice and share her experience when she could have written, well- nothing. I understand you felt the comment was rude, but I think reactions like this discourage what would otherwise be helpful discourse to you ( and others in a similar situation) in the future. Sometimes the high road involves taking the meat and not commenting on the bone.

          1. Bo*

            A lot of times people on these types of websites just say whatever they want without regard to the person receiving it. We may all be faceless here on the internet, but we’re all human. I find that people need to often be reminded of that fact. I told Dawn that I appreciated their comment in spite of how I received their tone and attitude – and I still do. I have the right to say how I feel and I did so with tact and sincerity. I’d hardly consider my response discouraging of constructive discourse. And it appears Dawn took what I said in stride, so that’s all that matters.

            1. Dawn*

              Yup! It’s also wicked hard to get tone right when writing, because what it sounds like in my head is not what it sounds like on paper. I absolutely completely and totally did not in any way, shape, or form mean to come across as anything other than “Hey, I have been where you have been, here’s some things that I wish I could have said to myself when I was in that exact same position.” However, that’s hard enough to do in real life, much less on the internet.

              Bo, I definitely think that if you’re seeing zero chance of your job duties ever changing if you stay in your department it’s not t0o early to think about where you might want to go instead. But again, just make sure that it’s not going to set you up with a reputation if you leave your department after only three or four months. And good luck in your interview!

      3. fposte*

        I think you’re making some really good points that are worth considering. I agree with those upthread who say that this won’t hurt Bo as much because it’s a move within the school, but an internal transfer after three months would still raise some eyebrows.

        I won’t go far as to say “No, for sure don’t do it,” but the downside of the internal transfer aspect is that you’re not leaving behind the people who feel burned by being used as a stepping stone; you may encounter them and even need to work with them, and you may want a job back in that department in the future. And while academic speed means you probably wouldn’t really be leaving until 6 months after you start, academic social tendencies mean your workplace will probably know before you give notice, too.

        So if you do it, be judicious; understand the price that you’re paying and that if you turn out not to like the new job, the pressures to stay are higher than the usual “don’t want to look like a job hopper,” because if you leave two university jobs after a short term you’ve probably burned your bridges at the university as a whole.

        1. Bo*

          “..the downside of the internal transfer aspect is that you’re not leaving behind the people who feel burned by being used as a stepping stone; you may encounter them and even need to work with them, and you may want a job back in that department in the future. ”

          Yes! I totally get that.

          Staying here for any period of time and moving into a new role within the department I’m in now would just be a lateral move. And I don’t even see that happening within 2 years because my coworkers have all had my position and have been here for several years.

          I definitely want to go on the interview to learn more about it and if it would really be a better opportunity overall. It’s kind of hard to do that with just a job posting. I was already planning on taking the day off anyway. But I definitely have pause about what to do if I move forward in the process and am made an offer.

          1. fposte*

            I also think that I might have said something different if you were asking about just applying, but the fact you’ve made it through to a phone interview means you’ve leapfrogged my concerns about how the prospective new department would view your being willing to leave so early. So I definitely think you should go on a face to face interview if it’s offered, and then mull the question further.

    4. Renee*

      I may not be with the majority, but I think it’s fine as long as you are gracious about it. You may just not be in the right job for you and it seems like a shame to pass up a good opportunity that aligns with your goals. I would, however, consider carefully whether the new position is one you can stay at for a decent length of time as that is what will help your reputation in the long term. I see being 20-something as going both ways. Yes, it’s normal to feel stuck, but also it can be when you actually do get stuck. I was 28 when I commenced getting myself stuck in a career for several years where I was miserable until I managed to wrench free. So, I would see if it really does look like a move forward and go from there. I wish I had been at least a little more bold about opportunities than I was when I was your age.

  21. ThatGirl*

    Prompted by Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde earlier in the week, anyone want to tell stories of co-workers who turned out to be nightmares?

    I worked on a copy desk for a suburban newspaper for a few years. There was a fair amount of turnover, and one new hire, let’s call him Bob, looked great on paper. He’d worked at some other suburban dailies, he aced his editing test, my boss was very excited about him.

    I don’t know how he interviewed so well, but he was atrocious on a day to day basis. In a job where speed and accuracy are important, he took his sweet, sweet time to do anything – hours and hours to design simple pages or edit mundane stories.

    He also seemed unstable to us. He would casually mention his gun collection every so often, for instance. Or people who had made him mad. We were all baffled about how he could have been hired with so much excitement.

    I had a casual friend who worked at another paper in the area that Bob had previously been employed at, and when she heard his name, she blanched. He’d been fired from that job after failing to show up for work one day because he was in jail on domestic violence charges.

    Long story short, he finally got fired from the paper I worked at after being caught on camera ramming his car door into another worker’s car, then casually moving his car in the lot to try to remove suspicion.

    1. some1*

      I will call her Judy. Judy was hired for a newly created position, and she had years of experience in our industry. She was smart, capable, easy to get along with – anything you could want in a coworker.

      After a couple of years, our sup was let go and Big Boss promoted Judy to our sup’s position, her first time supervising people. She basically did a 180 immediately after that. The power totally went to her head. She immediately instituted changes that made everything much more difficult. She either micro-managed people or was unavailable when needed. She thought she was everyone’s boss and alienated people in every dept.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I have seen the same thing! My friend was promoted to be my boss, and turned in to a nightmare! We thought the previous person in the job was nuts, but I started to wonder if maybe just being in the position was driving people crazy.

        1. some1*

          Judy was in my work-friend click, too, before her promotion. Obviously, we stopped wanting to spend our free time with her after she started acting that way, but she would just find out about our lunches or happy hours and invite herself. Not fun!

    2. Jerzy*

      Speaking of bad hires at suburban newspapers, when I was finally stepping down from my role of basically filling an entire weekly paper myself, I was asked to train my replacement, and although she seemed a little odd, there’s actually nothing all that odd about being an odd local reporter.

      Once I left, though, things went downhill with her very quickly. She neglected to show up for her first deadline day because of an appointment she told no one about. She didn’t show up for her second deadline day because she had tickets to a show, which, again, she told no one about.

      When she was around, she would revert all the editor’s edits back without explanation, and generally thought she didn’t need an editor or copy editor… about which she was quite mistaken. She’d neglect showing up for meetings, and basically thought she could do as she pleased, without repercussions.

      She was fired within her probationary period, and I was asked to come back as a freelancer, just to help fill the pages until they found someone new. After she was fired, her mother and grandmother called up the editor to argue with her and tell her off for firing this woman. She was in her early 30’s.

    3. Tardis*

      Oh boy… yes. And the worst thing is that I was part of the hire, which I count as my biggest professional mistake. She looked okay on paper, had fantastic references, and nailed the interview process (which is pretty thorough and has multiple steps). For the first few weeks, everything seemed okay – it takes everyone a little while to get up to speed, right? But then. Oh, but then.

      The first sign was the sick day, during her second week of employment. But hey – it happens! Everyone gets sick, you can’t help it if it’s at the beginning of a new job. We were very flexible. But eventually she just turned into a continual no-show with no advance notice, taking any excuse to work from home (which was possible for her role, but not desirable because it involves a lot of department coordination).

      As she was less and less present in the office, her output declined precipitously and everything she handed in had errors – whether it was email addresses entered into our mailing platform, broken links, the times that meetings were scheduled for, or extraneous spaces around punctuation in public materials. Our director is extremely attentive to details and has a zero tolerance policy for things like typos in mailings and website materials, so that was awful – especially since I had to correct the errors.

      We brought the errors to her attention multiple times, told her they were unacceptable, offered to provide help with proofreading, suggested creating a checklist to make sure things didn’t slip through, etc. Nothing stuck, it was the same errors and problems over and over again. She was continually a no-show and we were stuck redoing her work continually. She’d only been working with us for ~6 months, and we were working with our (extremely bureaucratic) HR department to put her on a PIP when she turned in her notice.

      She left in January, after about 7 months with our org. It wasn’t until late February or so that, when looking for other documents, we came across ~10 donor checks stashed in her desk drawer. From December of the previous year. That she had never taken to our development office to deposit into our accounts. My Director and I were furious, especially since it meant that some of our donors wouldn’t be able to get the charitable tax deduction that they had been expecting for that year. It was a significant amount of money, and it was a donor relations fiasco.

      Then, there were also the errors in grant reporting and expense reporting that she never cleared up before leaving, which ended up endangering our org’s financial status and our relationships with grantors. It took so, so much work to fix all of her stupid mistakes and the relationships she damaged through neglect and carelessness. NEVER AGAIN!

      1. Elle the new Fed*

        Just curious what you think you could have done to prevent that? It sounds to me like you guys were really thorough on hiring from what you’ve shared here.

        1. fposte*

          Checking references isn’t mentioned–I know sometimes people just don’t mention that, and it won’t save you from all tragedy, but it’s always worth doing.

          1. Tardis*

            We did check several references (which I mentioned in the post) and all were very positive, even glowing. It blows my mind. I don’t know how we could have predicted what was going to happen – which is *totally* terrifying from my point of view as someone who manages the hiring process.

            1. fposte*

              Do you have procedures in place now so that the checks in the desk thing couldn’t happen? That’s the part that makes me hyperventilate.

              1. Tardis*

                Believe me, it made me hyperventilate, too. Unfortunately, it’s the kind of thing that tends to drive more centralization, so our Director now is directly involved in the funds receiving process (which is a waste of her time, but I totally understand why that was her reaction).

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            And not just checking references the candidate provides, but asking to be put in touch with specific managers from their past if not listed … and not necessarily relying on the contact info they give you, but calling the main switchboard of the number where the reference works and asking for them (to avoid the person giving you the phone number of a friend who will pose as the manager).

        2. Tardis*

          We checked several references and all were very positive. It kills me that we probably couldn’t have prevented this awful hire, because she could turn on her professional skills and then turn them off again without warning, so even a skills test wouldn’t predict actual work performance.

          1. Lia*

            I have very occasionally run into the “give a glowing reference to get this horrible employee out of here” problem. Alison’s suggestions are one way to try and avoid that — calling a few extra people, and not using the contact info provided can help. But sometimes people just go nuts.

    4. Anon for this*

      There was a girl we hired a few years ago, that was a total mess. She was super organized during the interview and everyone (except for one person on the committee) thought she was fantastic. She seemed smart and competent and that she would be able to jump right in to the work.

      We hired her. The first week or so, everything seemed to be going well. She spent a week with the person who was leaving the role getting some training before she took over the duties full-time. Within a month it was a disaster. The new hire had no idea how to use email or any of the microsoft office suite. It never occurred to us that she wouldn’t have even the most basic computer skills as she had years of experience working at the manager and director levels at a major academic center. She also just wouldn’t do things or do them half-assed. It was a mess. It took us 9 months to fire her.

      1. some1*

        “The new hire had no idea how to use email or any of the microsoft office suite.”

        I’ve seen people who have years of experience but didn’t know everything they SHOULD know, but whoa . . .

      2. Lefty*

        A familiar thing to hear… a new hire for a position equivalent to mine which the candidate marked the highest level of competency for our standard systems. He also provided some school documentation to show that he had some low level (but very recent) programming training. He came to me because he couldn’t figure out what our instructions meant with “Desktop”, “Shortcut”, or “Hit Start” (all in reference to launching Microsoft Word). He also used his mouse upside down from what I’ve seen… not an issue if that’s someone’s preference for any reason but he stated it was because “the cord was like a tail and should point down”.

    5. Xarcady*

      We hired someone who seemed great–had the very specific skill set we needed, passed our skills test with flying colors, personality seemed to mesh with our small team, wonderful references.

      She didn’t show up on her first day of work. When I called and finally got through to her, she explained that she was still substitute teaching (we’d known that, and accommodated that by letting her start a month after we hired her). So why didn’t she call and talk to us? No idea.

      I was all for forgetting about her at that point, but the owner of the company really liked her, so we arranged a new start date in two weeks.

      I was training her, so, as usual on a new hire’s first day, I got to the office an hour early. She was already there, sitting in my office. That was . . . odd. New hires do tend to show up early, but not that early. We trained all day, she was sharing my office for the first couple of weeks, and she caught on quickly, was picking things up fast.

      At 5 pm, I told her she could go home. She stayed in the office another hour. Again, odd. Most people are tired after the first day on a new job and just want to go home. I finally told her she had to go, mostly because I needed to work on some performance reviews and I didn’t want her there while I was doing that.

      Next day, same thing. Arrived very early, stayed very late. Next day, same thing. Next day, no show.

      After three days of phone calls (pre-everyone-owning-a-cellphone days) to a line without an answering machine or voice mail, I arrived in the office the following morning to a voice mail left at 2 am, from a man, telling us she wasn’t coming back.

      We were never able to contact her after that. Her paycheck was mailed to her and came back to us as undeliverable. We called the school where she had been working–they had heard nothing. We were concerned that something had happened to her and contacted the police in the town where she supposedly lived, but they found no record of anyone by that name at the address we had.

      Twenty years later, I still wonder about her sometimes.

        1. voyager1*

          Maybe a woman trying to get away from a domestic violence issue and she finally got found?

          Some organizations that help women get away help those women start new lives but sometimes the abuser finds the woman.

          But still crazy. I would wonder too.

      2. Ama*

        Oh, man, I really hope she was just odd and not in an unsafe situation. I do think you did all you could, though — and more than a lot of people would have done.

      3. Camellia*

        My first thought is someone that was fleeing an abusive relationship. Fake names and addresses, unexpected absences and being early and staying late – maybe no place to go or maybe trying to vary comings and goings. And then she was found. I hope not but I always think the worst in those circumstances.

        1. MsChandandlerBong*

          That was my first thought, too. I used to stay at the office until 9 or 10 at night to avoid going home to my (emotionally, not physically, thank goodness) abusive boyfriend.

    6. Chex Mix*

      No experience on the hiring side but …

      I was a sophomore in high school and they had hired a new honors math teacher. The first day she came in, opened up our book and said “Wow! This is hard stuff. Um. Do the worksheet.” Well that took us all of 10 minutes to complete and she said we could “Do whatever” for the rest of class. This continued all week.

      On Friday she came into class and announced “I read the rest of your text book and it scarred me. I’m going back to school and won’t be teaching you”. She then left the classroom!

      Well we were the honors students so we hung around and chatted in the class about how bizarre this was … when the principle walked by. He saw us being rowdy and asked where the teacher was – so we told him what happened. He had no idea she had quit! We never saw her again.

      Due to the fiasco they had the regular math teacher take on the honors class. On the first day of class we filed in, sat down quietly and got our books out. She was stunned. “Wow! I didn’t even have to ask you to be quite! Is that what all honors classes are like!?” We all nodded our heads. We pretty much instantly loved this teacher. It was clear she had put up with a whole bunch of crap from the other students and she was so enthusiastic about teaching us!

    7. NicoleK*

      This happened at a former job, Sue came to the company as an intern. After her internship was over, she stayed on as a volunteer. That lead to a temporary and then a permanent position. Sue seemed nice, proactive, and competent. After I left the company, I forwarded job announcements to her once or twice.

      As time when on, Sue grew increasingly unhappy. And she began spreading her unhappiness around. It finally reached a boiling point and the company accepted her resignation a week into her notice period.

    9. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      We hired Avin the Temp Architect to model a software platform. We knew what we needed, but weren’t experts on the modeling skills. We explained his role – to document our direction – and he accepted.

      Instead of modeling our needs, Avin began to design his own version of the platform and tried to push it through to our boss. Our boss, Sparhawk, reset his expectation for Avin and sent him on his way.

      Avin went to Sparhawk’s boss, Vanion, who shot down Avin and informed Sparhawk. Sparhawk called a meeting with all of us, including Avin, to collectively resolve the schism.

      Avin jumped and argued, and finally exclaimed, “This is just not working between me and your team!”

      Sparhawk immediately replied, “I’m sorry you feel that way. I’ll take your laptop and badge now.”

      Avin gaped at Sparhawk. “What?”

      Sparhawk replies, “You think I’m going to keep you and fire my team? Let’s go – I’ll escort you out.”

      Months later, someone forwards a resume to Kurik, our Lead Arch, asking if Kurik knew the guy. It’s was Avin’s resume – he claimed he had practically single-handedly launched our platform and never noted his dismissal. Kurik called his buddy, and Avin never darkened our door again.

  22. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Other people who hire: Do you have an ATS that you actually like and that candidates like? I’m looking for something really simple, not a lot of bells and whistles, that doesn’t make candidates jump through lots of hoops. Like, upload your cover letter and resume, and you’re done. Don’t need a ton of functionality on the back-end either — just the basics, like being able to share applicant materials and track status. Obviously not Taleo. Any recommendations?

      1. Anxa*

        Agreed. It boils me up to here politicians and government workers discus the crisis of long-term unemployment without mentioning how hiring has changed so much due to Taleo and the like.

    2. Bye Academia*

      We use Fluidreview and I like it. It was easy to use as an applicant and seems to be straightforward on the back end. It tracks applicants all the way through interviews and hiring. It’s very flexible in terms of what you ask. You can use questions to rule out candidates if you want, but you don’t have to. You could certainly just ask to upload a cover letter and resume and nothing else.

      Disclaimer: I am not a hiring manager, I just work for one. Not sure how much it costs, etc.

    3. HR Pro*

      We use Silkroad. I wasn’t here when we got it, so I don’t know about what options are available for configuring it. It might be a little more complex than you’re looking for, because we have people do more than just upload their resumes (e.g. they create a profile, answer questions like where did they hear about the job, etc.). (But maybe we just wanted to configure it like that, and maybe it can be simplified?)

      On the back end, I’m pleased with it. Pretty easy for us in HR to use and has some reasonably good functionality for the hiring managers, too.

      1. CAA*

        We use jazz.co. It’s customizable enough that you can make the applicant experience very simple. You can track status, refer people to other hiring managers, and send emails to candidates.

        They have been building out various back-end analytics to try and tell you whether your job descriptions and candidate pools meet various quality metrics. I just ignore all of that.

        1. Kimberlee, Esq*

          I use Greenhouse at my job and really love it, but I will say that in my last bout of job searching there were a couple places that used Jazz and I had a really positive experience with it on the candidate side. And it’s very pretty.

    4. Kara Zor-El*

      We use Greenhouse. It’s pretty straightforward! (not in HR but I’ve used it as a hiring manager.)

  23. Angela*

    I’m probably overthinking this, but I have a question about sending a thank you after an interview. I have done my best internet snooping but have been unable to get emails for the people I interviewed with. I actually had to mail my resume to the company and they had me fill out a paper application when I arrived for the interview, so I think they are very low tech. Regardless, I loved what I heard about the position and got a great vibe when I went to interview. Since an email thank you is out, do I send a hand-written one? Or type a letter? Somehow a typed letter feels overly formal to me, but maybe that’s just because it’s been years since I’ve sent an actual letter to anyone.

    1. LotusEclair1984*

      This is something I think about often too. Is speed more important (email) than craftsmanship (handwritten card) when thanking someone after an interview? I think Alison has written in the past that email is preferred for speed’s sake, but in your situation handwritten notecards sound like the way to go!

    2. Dawn*

      Since you had to fill out a paper application and you can’t find anyone’s email, I’d go with the mailed thank you. Type-written letter would be way too formal.

    4. Elle the new Fed*

      I did this for a previous job–I forgot the name of the person–and ended up emailing the admin I’d scheduled through to ask. I snooped for HOURS and didn’t find a thing . Even after I had the name (combined with all the details I’d learned in the interview), the person had no internet presence that I could find.

      I’d probably just handwrite and send it off. As a person who interviews a lot, the handwritten ones stick out more, but I definitely would’t penalize anyone over not sending one.

  24. alter_ego*

    How much extra money would it take for you to leave a job you’re happy with when you’re being headhunted, assuming all other benefits are equal?

    I have a second interview next week with a company who contacted me, and I love my current job, but I took the first interview because it was largely informational for both of us. They didn’t have an open position, I wasn’t looking to leave, but their recruiter contacted me because they like to keep an eye out for potential new hires. Apparently right after my interview, one of their employees submitted his two week notice. So next week is a for real interview, and I’m feeling incredibly conflicted. I love my current job, but I keep telling myself that for “enough” money I would leave. But how on earth do I quantify that? I don’t make a pittance at the moment, so more would be nice, but not necessary to cover expenses and such.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      For me, it would really depend on the vibe I got from the other job and whether I was making enough to fund my retirement accounts, go on vacations, etc. I think it would probably be around 10-20% increase for me to risk of going someplace where I may not be as happy. Oh, and you say all other benefits being equal, but commute would be a huge make-or-break issue for me.

      1. alter_ego*

        haha, the job is actually across the street from my current office, so the commute would be like, .5 seconds shorter

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I’m pretty much where CrazyCatLady is. I like my current company and coworkers, but was recruited for an opportunity that was interesting enough to investigate. For me, the commute was also about the same, and once I looked at the benefits I was surprised to find that my current benefits were pretty close to what the new employer offers. So I figured I’d probably consider it for at least a 10% increase, and that was after I met the team that works for the hiring manager and I liked them all, and thought I’d enjoy working with them. For me, the team and organizational environment makes a big difference, too, and this employer has a lot of benefits and development/enrichment opportunities, the latter more so than my current employer, which is part of why I was considering it.

      3. Bea W*

        None if I am really super happy where I’m at, but some people are more motivated by money than other factors.

        I had a recruiter, for a direct competitor no less, ask me this the other day. :D

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      I’d probably want at least 10% and probably want to negotiate on vacation benefits. That’s the hardest part when changing job, especially if you can’t time it right. If I got headhunted right now, my biggest factor would be telecommuting options, reduction in travel, and a starting offer of at least $10k more. Plus vacation.

      1. Camellia*

        You know, I see here a lot that people talk about negotiating vacation but does this ever work for companies that are not mom-and-pop or maybe startups? The corporations for which I’ve worked have vacation policies written in stone, and the one time I did try to make it part of the negotiation they looked at me like I was crazy.

        1. TotesMaGoats*

          I don’t know. I’m higher ed and unless you are at the top levels, I think it’d be pretty impossible but on the other hand I think being head hunted gives unusual opportunities. I’ve always heard the vacation thing happens in the corporate world but it could be a myth.

    3. Ad Astra*

      If all other things about the job were truly equal, it would take me maybe $10,000 more to move on. But I make relatively little money, so $10k would provide a significant lifestyle improvement. I’d also probably want at least 5 more days of paid vacation.

      Of course, it’s rare that two jobs are 100% equal. You will almost definitely have a preference for the type of work, the structure of the department, the location of the office, the company culture, the people you work with, etc.

    4. Sunflower*

      I would ask yourself why you are happy in your current job and if those things can be guaranteed in the other company?If all other benefits are the same(commute, health insurance, PTO), then I would assume you have a lot of benefits that don’t translate to paper- maybe you really like your boss/coworkers, your organization is very transparent. If you can’t get a guarantee on those things, how much money will it take for you to take the risk of losing them?

    5. Chex Mix*

      One thing I have found useful is to pretend I am an hourly employee and then add the commute into my hour calculation for my “Hourly wage”.

      For example, a $50,000 a year salary with a minimal commute at 40 hours a week = ~ $24 an hour.
      Add in a 1 hour one way commute, that’s now an average of 50 hours a week; to get to $24 an hour you would need to make at least $62,500 … and that does not take into account the impact of the increased cost of gas!

      It really helped me not to get sticker shock at the $10K raises recruiters were trying to lure me into once I realized that, once all is said and done, I’m really making less per hour than I would be if I stayed at my current job.

    6. Chex Mix*

      I think I would also try and assume I’m making a worse trade off and then think about what amount would keep me there.

      Assume your new boss is a tool and your co-workers aren’t as cool as your current ones, how much money would they need to offer to keep you in the crap department? Would any amount of money be worth this?

    7. Jen*

      all other things totally equal, 20%. I make plenty of money. I also pay a boatload of taxes on it. 20% would be 15-25k post-tax for me, which is enough to make an impact on my lifestyle (new car, more savings / earlier retirement, great vacation, buy a vacation home, that sort of thing)

  25. Perla*

    I’m a recruiter based in CA recruiting for nationwide positions (40 in all). The hiring managers do not tell me specific qualifications or knowledge they desire in a candidate until that candidate is interviewed by them! Then comes passive aggressive feedback that states the candidate should have this and that. Basically the managers are describing qualities and academic concentrations completely left out of the job description which is the only thing I have access to. I have tried to brainstorm with my supervisor but he isn’t very helpful in how to get their input prior to my interviews. This is making me look foolish and inefficient. I could truly save everyone’s time if the job description was clearly stated. I feel defeated in my role.

    1. LizB*

      Ugh, that really sucks. It sounds like whoever’s writing these job descriptions is doing a terrible job, because something concrete like an academic concentration should be listed in the required or preferred qualifications if it’s really that important. I wonder if when you got a new position to recruit for, you could reach out to the hiring managers before you started recruiting and go over the job description with them, making sure to ask whether there are any additional qualifications they’re looking for? You could frame it as, “I want to make sure I’m sending you the highest quality candidates, so let’s put in some time going over what you want right now so you don’t waste time later interviewing people who are missing key pieces of experience.” Then later, if they come back saying “That candidate was terrible, they didn’t know anything about Peppermint Teapots!” you can say “I’m sorry, you hadn’t mentioned you were looking for that experience — I’ll make sure I screen for it for the next batch of interviews.”

    2. BRR*

      Do you speak with the hiring manager before you phone/resume screen or headhunt (not sure what you do)? Can you ask for a brief phone call “because you like to make sure you’re finding/sending along the best quality” and a quick call “will save them time later by only providing the best candidates.” Also then if they come back you can reference the phone call :).

      Do you do the same positions? If yes can you look at who is hired for something to guide you?

    3. Menacia*

      You don’t mention if you follow up with the hiring manager to get more details on the position requirements. Is there a form the hiring managers complete online, or do they just email you their requests? We had an issue getting new hire information from our HR department until we set up a formalized process/form to be completed which included mandatory fields. We made it as easy as possible for them to give us the information necessary to ensure the new hire had what they needed day one. I would think the hiring managers would not want to waste their time on unqualified candidates, and you could leverage that when recommending how they should submit requirements for open positions.

  26. Sally Sparrow*

    I’ve been making high-res copies of documents with InDesign (documents usually get printed on banner head, which the template we have is in InDesign, so instead of printing them out and scanning them I wanted nice, high quality PDFs). A CW mentioned that our boss “doesn’t want her learning InDesign” but then in the same breath told me to tell her the next time I’m working on them so she can watch me and look over my shoulder as I do it.

    I was going to do all but one of them, and then let her watch me make the one, but I forgot (partially busy-ness and partially avoidance). I think our boss is going to ask me to make 2 brand new documents, so there might be an opportunity then to let her watch, but I don’t really want her to.

    How should I handle this?

    1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Is there a way to casually bring it up to your boss? Like “Suzy mentioned an interest in learning InDesign, is it okay if I have her sit with me.”

      I had a writer, who *really* wanted to be a graphic designer and would spend too much time bugging my designers and trying to make simple power points and letters over the top. I didn’t know how much time it was eating away from my designers, because even though he was “just watching” he was also asking a lot of questions. When my lead designer brought it up, I was able to have a gentle conversation with the writer about other ways to use/pursue this interest.

    2. Ama*

      I’m also the resident InDesign expert in my office, and I would definitely be uncomfortable letting someone watch me work — it’s much easier for me to have other people start doing whatever they want to do and then ask me questions.

      Do you have any written instructions on how to make high res PDFs? Could you find the time to write some up and give them to your coworker in the name of emergency coverage? I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have some on hand in the event of your leaving the job or being unexpectedly unavailable when a new PDF needs to be made.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        Writing down a procedure is a good idea, especially now that the templates are already made for if she wants to change them in the future/when the documents need to be updated.

    3. fposte*

      I get that it can be weird to have someone hanging on you when you work, but that seems a pretty modest request–can you just steel yourself and do it? Explicitly give a timeframe so you can cut her loose when the time’s up and finish work on your own.

    5. edj3*

      Huh. Our copywriters know In Design which has been invaluable when they review the work. Any reason they shouldn’t learn it?

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Probably because the company has decided they want their designers to design and their writers to write – some places really aren’t big on cross-training, especially if they have tight deadlines.

    6. CMT*

      If your common supervisor doesn’t want her to learn InDesign, I wouldn’t just set up a training session without speaking to the boss first.

    7. Jules the First*

      Great tool that my database developer turned me on to – Jing. Install it on your PC (for free) and you can record all or part of your screen (up to 30 minutes, I think) save the recording and share it with anyone you like. They don’t even need any video software, just drag the video file into any browser window. I use it for all of my training and tutorials because people can go back and watch it again if they need a refresher in a few months.

  27. public to private?*

    has anyone made the transition from working in the public sector to the private sector? if so – how?

    i’m in my mid-twenties and have a bachelor’s degree. i currently work in a university, but my entire resume in professional non-retail jobs is in the public sector. i’ve worked for multiple universities and the government, and i currently work at a large, top 25 public research university. when i was looking for jobs before i had interviews with private companies but non-hired me. when i asked for feedback it was because of reservations that i wouldn’t be able to stand the fast paced nature and pressure of the private sector, even when i addressed it in the interview (after asking Allison’s great question about if they had any reservations about my candidacy i could address) and told them a major motivator for my wanting to leave the public sector was how slowly things happen, and to get away from the bureaucracy of large public institutions. i ended up getting an offer after a few months at a university and taking it, because it was better than doing nothing.

    it’s also compounded because what i do is very specialized. i work in student recruitment and retention, specifically of aboriginal peoples. i’m having trouble figuring out how to take the skills from this work and applying it to other industries, and i can’t figure out what kind of titles i should be searching to find jobs to even apply for – and when i do find something i think would be interesting, i’m tend to think i’m not qualified because what i’ve done is so specialized (ex: i don’t have x number of years experience if the specific field of the job posting, etc)! would i need to start over in an entry level position (not appealing – a major motivator for wanting out is the money, i make 40-50% less than people at other institutions doing my same position and can barely pay my bills), or should i go back to school and take on more debt to get a better degree? do i just accept i’ve worked myself into a corner and stick with academia forever because the benefits are pretty good in terms of time off and flexibility?

    i’m feeling pretty lost in all of this tbh. i love the work i do and i’m good at it, but my workplace is incredibly toxic, and i can’t see myself leaving the area i currently live in to search for work elsewhere, which limits my options for staying in the field significantly.

    1. Elle the new Fed*

      So, I don’t have any input, but I am VERY curious if anyone else has ideas? I also work in the public sector (US Federal, level) and do job placement work.

      From what you’ve said here, it looks like you could transition into recruitment of diverse populations, especially with your experience with aboriginal peoples. I don’t know much about that work specifically, but do know many organizations focus specifically on increasing diversity as part of recruitment strategy. I have met people who were diversity recruiters and it was always interesting to hear about them looking in really non-traditional areas for new staff members.

      I’d definitely say reach out to your networks, mentors or other trusted advisors before just going back to school. It may not be necessary to get another degree in order to make the leap.

    2. SJ*

      “and when i do find something i think would be interesting, i’m tend to think i’m not qualified because what i’ve done is so specialized (ex: i don’t have x number of years experience if the specific field of the job posting, etc)!”

      I don’t have any advice, because this is me! I also work in academia in a “weird,” specialized role (entry-level) — I actually have my hand in a lot of things and work with a number of different departments frequently, but there’s no advancement in this role because it’s unique and specific to my university. So advancement at a different university would mean going into a new department altogether. I have experience relevant to positions across many departments, and it’s almost overwhelming — I’m always asked the question, “What department do you want to work in?” I don’t know! There’s no one specific department I want to work in. When I see a role that’s interesting that my skills and experience would match, I apply for it.

      The problem is that I feel I’m never going to qualify for an advanced role in a department over someone actually coming from that background, no matter how much I play up how my skills and experience will match the role. Yeah, I’d be great for X position in Alumni Relations due to my skills, but of course they’re going to prefer someone actually coming from a lower position in Alumni Relations. I can’t even get an interview, despite all the great advice I’ve gotten here about my cover letter and resume.

      I want to leave my toxic environment too, but I feel like I’ve hit a wall here. When I came into this role (2.5 years ago, oh my god) I thought my opportunities were endless, but I never realized that having so much varied experience would work against me. Having lots of relevant, transferable skills just doesn’t match up against someone who has all that plus a background in the department.

      1. Jennifer*

        Yeah, me too. I can’t even get jobs in areas related to my specialization because I’m not 100% perfect enough and haven’t done 5% of the job before. It’s killing me. How the hell am I supposed to learn new skills if no one will let me?

    3. K*

      If you went back to school, what would it be for? I get the impression that you don’t know what you’d like to do in general, so I wouldn’t suggest going back to school. I personally think extra education can be overrated, especially if it’s not for something specific. You also mention talking yourself out of jobs if you’re not ‘perfectly’ qualified for. Alison has talked about this recently, you don’t need to be 100% what the ad asks for. I think you need to be more open minded about the skills you have.

      1. super anon*

        it’s true – i really don’t know what i want to do. i went to university to learn korean and my goal was to continue on and do my masters and become a literary translator, but i was terrible at learning the language and gave up studying after 3 years when i realized i would never be able to pass the language courses at my home university to graduate. since then i’ve kind of floated around not really know what to do. i’ve vaguely thought about taking a certificate program at our local technology institute in programming so i can get into IT, but i’ve never been good at math, which makes me think i wouldn’t be able to do programming very well. i really fell into the field i’m in now and it was lucky i’m good at it, but it’s not something i’d want to do for the rest of my life.

        the only thing i can think of that i really want to do is to own and operate my own pawn shop. i worked at one for a year during my undergrad and it was the best work experience of my entire life and the only time i’ve ever truly been happy at work. unfortunately, i don’t think trying to start a business with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt under my belt is a great idea, so i’ve never seriously considered trying to do it. i’ve done a market analysis and i think the kind of shop i’d want to run would be profitable and there’s nothing like it in the area, but i don’t have a business degree or any kind of qualifications to be an entrepreneur, and my boyfriend is already self employed so i feel like one of us should at least have a steady income.

        tl;dr: maybe i’m just having a quarter-life existential crisis?

        1. LC*

          Super Anon: Just curious – was the pawn shop work itself what you really liked, or was it the environment and/or the people you worked with at this particular pawn shop? I’m only asking because if it was the people you worked with before that made it a great work experience, it might be disappointing for you if you were to run your own shop and the experience wouldn’t be quite the same or as fulfilling. I would just warn you not to be overly nostalgic before making a big decision such as running your own business. And I’ve never owned my own business, but I imagine there is a huge difference between working somewhere and being responsible for every facet of that workplace.

          I don’t want to discourage you too much though, since I’m going through an existential crisis of my own, and I was in a similar position of not knowing what I wanted to do. It really helped me to take an afternoon and actually write down/diagram the pros and cons of leaving my current job, finding a new job, or going back to school. Working it all out on paper really helped me figure out what’s best for me (in my case, doing online school while still keeping my job for now) and it also relieved some anxiety I’ve had about the whole thing. If you decide you want to run your own shop, then by all means, do as much research as you can and go for it! A lot of people run their own business with no formal education.

    4. J.B.*

      I have been having trouble making the transition from public to private but I am mid-level and have kids. I am probably going to stick it out while I continue developing skills in an area I want to move into, then go back to school later.

      You are 25 – it should be possible to make a change, but you really need to know your tradeoffs first. You don’t need another degree unless it is necessary to do a job you want (like – school for a medical related degree would be worth it, an MBA would probably not be.) If you really value the time off and flexibility, can you do something on the side? If you were to move, maybe into an HR entry level ish role?

  28. Persephone*

    Wanted to poll everyone here to see what your workplace lunch breaks are like. What length do you get versus what do people actually use, do people at their desks and keep working or take an actual break, paid versus unpaid, etc.

    Everyone at our office eats lunch at their desk, and no one ever takes more than 30 minutes. Management is currently setting up a dedicated break room to provide somewhere for people to go and also trying to reduce work loads (more so response times than anything) so people can step away. They’re also encouraging people to take up to an hour if they want. These breaks are not paid. I wanted to get a sense of what it’s like in other offices.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’ve never had a paid lunch, personally.

      When I worked in newspapers I always took my breaks because a) we were strongly encouraged to and b) I spent a lot of late nights there so it was nice to have the downtime.

      Now I work in corporate America and generally eat at my desk, without taking a real “lunch”, because I prefer to work straight through and leave a little earlier (traffic!). It varies, some people eat in our cafeteria, some go out sometimes, some take a proper break but at their desk, and some do what I do.

    2. alice*

      I take an hour, but I’m paid for it. My boss will sometimes take up to two hours. It’s not really a formal thing here. If I wasn’t getting paid, I can imagine taking a 30 minute break or less.

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      We get 30 minutes and are strongly encouraged to take it. I take it most days and either close my office door and eat at my desk, or I go for a walk. I’m exempt so I’m paid during my lunches.

    5. Sally Sparrow*

      I get an hour, but it is unpaid. Some people eat at their desk, but for the most part people go to our little break room or there is an empty cafeteria on a separate floor (it used to be an actual cafeteria, but the building hasn’t replaced it) and yet, since that space accommodates more people/larger groups.

    6. super anon*

      we get an hour, but how people use it depends. some take the full hour in the break room. other people work at their desks for lunch and leave early. lunches are paid, but i’m salary so that’s kind of a moot point.

      my time is very flexible, so if i’m having a very busy day/it’s raining and too gross to go outside i’ll stay in my office and eat. about once a week a coworker and i will take the full hour for lunch and go out to eat or go for a walk.

    7. alter_ego*

      We’re salaried, and we all take an hour (more like an hour and 15 minutes). Some people eat in the break room, but most people either eat at their desks, or there’s a big group that play poker together at lunch.
      Sometimes we work through lunch if a deadline makes in necessary, but the overall culture is one that encourages us to take the full hour. We work late a lot, so we take our breaks where we can get them.

    8. Carrie in Scotland*

      Never had a paid lunch.

      I’ve usually had an hour (I work 9-5) but in jobs I’ve worked less hours it’s been 30 minutes. I rarely eat lunch at my desk for various reasons and it’s good to get away from your co-workers/computer/desk. I always take the full amount of time allocated to me.

    9. Random citizen*

      A 30 minute paid lunch break is the rule here for hourly employees. Exempt managers can do whatever they want, and I’d say about half regularly take a lunch break (usually about 30 minutes also). GM often eats at his desk if he’s busy, otherwise in the breakroom with the rest of the crew. One guy never takes a lunch break, but, come to think of it, I’ve never seen him bring food from home or buy lunch, except for the occasional stack of pizzas for the department. That sort of makes sense during our slow season when he can leave pretty early, but I don’t know what or when he’s eating during the time he’s pulling 10-12 hour days!

      1. mander*

        I have worked with a couple of people who never eat anything during the day. I don’t understand how they do it. One guy seems to subsist on nothing but instant coffee and cigarettes, and unsurprisingly, he is the crankiest person I have ever met.

        For me it varies by contract, but we usually get an hour paid, broken into a half hour break at 10 and lunch at 1. Since we’re basically a construction site crew we all go to break together, partly so that the work area is clear for machinery, etc. to do stuff nearby while there’s nobody in the way.

    10. Lillian McGee*

      Super casual here, but almost no one eats in the break room. People either go out or heat up their lunch and bring it to their desk. We are allowed an hour and it is paid, but there’s no work-thru-lunch-leave-early allowed. I am one of the only ones who eats in the break room and I am a notorious fixture in there at lunchtime. Lots of people had to learn the hard way that just because I am physically present, they better not interrupt me for work stuff or I will get super cranky. I usually read and I enjoy being interrupted for chit chat but god help you if you come in to tell me the printer’s jammed…

    11. Not Gloria A.A., B.S.*

      We get 30 minutes unpaid and a 15 minute paid break that a lot of people combine to take a 45 minute lunch break. A lot of folks will eat in the cafeteria or another common area that we have with tables and chairs. I eat at my desk since I have no one to eat with but I don’t ever work through my lunch. I minimize everything on my computer and put myself in an away status on our chat program.

    12. AVP*

      I usually just sit at my desk and take 20-30 minutes, either browsing the internet or working depending on whats going on. I’m exempt so the pay issue doesn’t come up.

    13. Kelly L.*

      I’m salaried, and I get an hour. In practice, I eat at my desk a lot to save money, and when I’m eating at my desk, I usually end up doing something worky. (I need an “Out to Lunch” sign on my forehead, I think!) But some days I do leave to eat or do errands, and come back an hour later.

      There’s a lounge, but it’s usually full of students and I feel awkward eating there.

    14. Ama*

      I suppose technically mine isn’t paid because our salary is based on a 35 hour workweek, but we’re all exempt and our employer is great with flexible schedules, so no one is really counting minutes here. I take a full hour and leave the office, though most of my coworkers do not. My last employer had an onsite cafeteria for which my position handled administrative tasks (purchasing, etc.), so going down to lunch still felt like I was working — I now realize never feeling like I got a true break was a huge factor in my stress levels at that job. I’m pretty much a classic introvert so eight hours of non-stop interactions with coworkers is incredibly draining.

      I take my full hour now and find someplace quiet to eat, away from coworkers. It gives me the mental space I need to be able to be truly productive all day. In fact if I’m having one of those frustrating mornings where I can’t seem to get going on anything I find taking my lunch as early as possible helps me reset my day and actually get things done afterwards.

    15. Ad Astra*

      We get an hour, though it’s not strictly enforced. A lot of us go out to lunch several times a week, which means we usually use the whole hour or even slightly more. A handful of people eat in the lunchroom, and I only see people eating at their desks when they have a big deadline looming.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Also, I’m non-exempt, so lunch is unpaid but I do get paid if I actually work during the noon hour. When I was exempt, I worked 8-5 and was paid for 40 hours, so that still equates to an unpaid lunch break — but if I worked over lunch, I didn’t get any extra money, and I didn’t get to leave early. When I worked for a newspaper, I’d take longer or shorter breaks depending on what was necessary to stay at 40 hours that week because they didn’t like paying overtime. I’ve never had a 9-5 (or 8-4 or other equivalent) job where I’m only in the office for 8 hours and am actually getting paid during lunch.

    16. Gwen*

      Lunch is unpaid. Most people take an hour; a lot of people go out for lunch or to run errands, others will eat at their desk (or hiding somewhere else in the office). No one actually eats in the kitchen/breakroom. You’re not allowed to “work through” lunch and go home early on any kind of regular basis.

    17. Xarcady*

      The default here is an unpaid one hour lunch. But most people cut that to half an hour and arrive 1/2 hour later or leave 1/2 hour earlier.

      There are break rooms/kitchens on each floor of the building, but they have no tables/seating, just fridges, microwaves, toasters, the coffee machine, vending machines, a sink and a dishwasher.

      There is a large lunch room on the bottom floor, with tables and chairs and a larger kitchen. It is also used for large meetings and conferences, so there are about 5 days a year when it is not available.

      My department is located as far as you can get from the lunch room as possible, so everyone eats at their desks, rather than spend 10 minutes of their lunch break running up and down 4 flights of stairs and racing to the far end of the building.

      Sometimes a small group of us will use an empty conference room for a group lunch, rather than go downstairs.

    18. Bea W*

      My state mandates a 30 minute break minimum. It doesn’t have to be paid, and I’ve never worked anywhere that paid over the lunch break.

      My coworkers eat at their desks, while they continue to work. IMHO a break is not a break if you are working. I take my full 30 minutes and eat anywhere that is not my desk. I work for a large company in a building with hundreds of people. Many of them do break for lunch and either go out or go to the cafeteria and take their full time. The eating at the desk thing as quickly as possible seems to be unique to my team. Lunch is my main meal, and I can’t eat and work at the same time. If I start working while I am eating, my lunch gets cold/soggy/stale, because I just can’t seem to do those two things at once, and it really is not appealing.

      My last jobs did not have an on-site cafeteria, but people gathered in the break room/kitchen or ate out. We only ate at our desks if things were nutty. My first job we were allowed 1 hr lunch. People generally took at least 30 minutes, but not always the full hour.

      When I worked in retail back in the day, we got 30 minutes and people took their full break, because it had to be scheduled and coordinated with other people / store schedule and it was the only change you got to go sit and relax. Same when I was working in direct care. Our meal breaks had to be coordinated with the other staff, and people took their full time knowing it was the only chance they were going to get for a break or to eat.

    19. Tau*

      30 minutes minimum up to 2 hours unpaid* for us contractors. Since it’s unpaid, like hell are any of us doing an iota of work in that period – we all wander off to the canteen and stay there until our 30 minutes are up. This may occasionally involve the twiddling of thumbs and staring at the clock… I need to get better about bringing a book. I don’t know what it’s like for the permanent employees, but I often see them eating at their desk while working so I assume they get a paid lunch.

      No other breaks, sadly. I’m not glued to the desk so can get up and make myself a cup of tea every now and then, but at this point I’d kill for the ability to take a 10-15 minute break sometime in the morning or afternoon.

      * taking longer means working longer to make up for it, since you’re not clocked in for lunch. None of us take longer unless we need to burn some overtime accumulated during the week, but I don’t think anyone would really object if we did – it’s more that there’s not much to do over lunch and we’re too far away to run errands or the like. At my actual parent company, I’d take longer pretty regularly since I was <10 minutes away from home. *dreamy sigh*

    20. katamia*

      At my last job, we got an hour unpaid for lunch, but a lot of people either worked through their lunch breaks or ate at their desks while still working or whatever. Maybe half went out to lunch or socialized and half ate at their desks and either worked or browsed the Internet. That job had lots of time management issues, though–they would basically routinely give us 9-10 hours of work to do in 8 hours (supposedly), so things got a little weird. I work better with breaks, though, so even though I’d always finish lunch way early, I’d browse AAM or news websites to make sure I got my full hour. (I was routinely having to stay 30-60 minutes and sometimes up to 2 hours late to finish anyway, so, yes, I became a bit of a clockwatcher about my lunch break.)

      Now I work from home, so my lunch break can be whenever and however I want, lol.

    21. Cheesecake2.0*

      One hour. Half is the unpaid, state-required 30 min break and the other half is my two 15-min paid breaks rolled all up into one hour. It’s how everyone in my dept does it. We can still take breaks other times without having to use our 2 15-min paid ones.
      I eat at my desk, while reading a book or watching netflix. I make sure to close my email and any documents I’m working on. I work in a department full of introverts so at least 90% of the people are hiding at their desks watching tv or reading during lunch.

    22. Tilly W*

      Salaried at corporate job and no set lunch hour policy or time. We have a 9/80 schedule (first and third Fridays off with nine hour days). I try and hit up a fitness class over lunch when I can, which is common among coworkers, and I tend to eat at my desk. Our office is downtown so a lot of people go out to lunch but again, no set rules or office hours. Previous jobs have been similar.

    23. Regina 2*

      Unpaid hour, which no one (but me) ever seems to take. Most scarf down at their desks as they work. Working through lunch doesn’t mean people leave early, though. 6pm appears to be the earliest when people leave, but several routinely leave at 7 or 8pm. I don’t know how they do it.

    24. Elizabeth West*

      I get an hour, but I usually work through it so I can come in a bit later and leave a bit earlier to avoid the worst of the traffic. My old boss was okay with this–new boss hasn’t said either way. It doesn’t impact my work much, since there is rarely anything urgent first thing in the morning or last thing at night anyway. Sometimes I want to go out and get something, so I do, which usually takes about 30 minutes in traffic. Then I clock back in and work while eating and just stay a bit later.

    25. Jennifer*

      Hour unpaid. I usually try to physically leave my office to go anywhere else unless the weather’s terrible. People don’t work through lunch here (union stuff above, plus we need the “quiet time”) but if you stay at your desk eating or watching videos or whatever, you will be interrupted constantly with questions and still end up working.

    26. Kimberlee, Esq*

      Lunches at my work are paid and nobody tracks them. It’s actually fairly rare for people to eat at their desks, and many people go grab food and eat together in the kitchen. It’s hard for me to say how long lunches typically are, but nobody would flinch at someone regularly taking hourlong lunches, and I’m pretty sure some people do. We probably have 150 people in the office, so there’s not really any one person keeping track!

    27. Anxa*

      I am lucky enough not to have to take a lunch break. Every hour at work I have ten minutes to work on more administrative tasks and do prep. Most hours I work with clients through the time, but I some I use for a snack break. I bring in snack that are quick to eat and calorie dense.

      At one point I worked longer days and was given the option of a lunch break, unpaid. I chose not to take it and just ate during slower periods.

    28. asteramella*

      I’m exempt and almost always eat a packed lunch at my desk while working. I’m not opposed to taking a full hour and unplugging from work, and in fact that’s what I’d prefer, but 1) my building has break rooms that accommodate maybe 30 people total, and my company has ~300 employees, so the break rooms are always jam packed, and 2) my building is somewhat geographically isolated, so going off-campus means at least 30 minutes of your lunch will be spent in traffic. I’d rather just take a working lunch and wrap up my day earlier.

      Every once in a while I’ll meet a friend off-campus for lunch, which usually takes me away from work for about 90 minutes.

    29. Hazel Asperg*

      One hour, unpaid. Everyone tends to nip out to the shops to get something then comes back and have lunch at their desk. I take the opportunity to have a walk through the park on my way there, which really breaks up the day. I sometimes eat my lunch in the park as it’s much nicer than sitting in front of my emails.

    30. Melissa*

      I work for a city government. We get 30 minutes unpaid, and two 15-minutes breaks paid. Most of us combine them to take an hour’s lunch.

      We also have a break room that is designed to make us want to eat in there, instead of at our desks. Two microwaves, one fridge/freezer combo, and one fridge only. Coke machine, snack machine. Multiple tables, and some easy chairs by the windows for reading.

      There have been times I’ve been so involved in a project I’ve just popped across the street to a sandwich shop and continued working, and it’s not a big deal.

      Most importantly, the supervisors model taking a real break for their staffs. Sometimes, they even come with groups of us for pizza, or to other favorite places.

  29. Sunflower*

    Has anyone read any good books, specifically geared towards women, on being more assertive? Or books about women and leadership?

    1. Dawn*

      I’ve read “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office: 101 Unconscious Mistakes Women Make That Sabotage Their Careers”- it’d be a good start!

    2. Jen*

      I hate the title but I do like Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office. It has a bunch of things that women do to minimize themselves at work and it helps you become more aware of your issues and what you can do to change them.

    3. Accountant*

      Ask For It by Linda Babcock is good. It’s about negotiating, but it starts out just getting you used to the idea of asking for things through a series of increasingly assertive asking exercises. It’s been a while since I read it, but I seem to remember it starting out with things like asking for more towels in your hotel room. Then maybe calling the cable company and asking for a lower rate. Then later it goes into workplace negotiations.

  30. petpet*

    I had my first interview in two years earlier this week, and I just got notice that they want me to come do a second-round interview! I’m so pumped!

  31. LizB*

    I really need to get a handle on my knee-jerk defensiveness. I haven’t been behaving unprofessionally, but it really irks me when someone questions my work or implies I can’t handle it, and I need to cut down on that emotional reaction. Usually these comments aren’t even that big a deal, I just take them the wrong way, and once I’ve had a minute to think about it I’m less annoyed. I need to figure out how to remind myself to take a step back before I get upset about something.

    An example from yesterday: I’ve been working on this teapot order for way longer that it should be taking me, because the organization that can give me the specs I need to complete it has been completely non-responsive. I’ve called a dozen different people, left voicemails, played phone tag, driven 40 minutes out of my way to try and pick up documentation that turned out to be incomplete, emphasized over and over how urgently I need this information, tried every method I can think of to get the information I need… but after a certain point, I’m at the mercy of other people. I was giving my boss an update about this order, and he kept asking if I had tried contacting X person or Y person — I responded yes, I started with Y person, who referred me to X person, and so did W U V P and Q people, but X person insists she doesn’t have the data I need, so I’m trying with B person now. His response was, “Well, try and get it figured out soon, because this case has been open way too long — we need a faster turn-around time.”

    I just said “Okay” cheerfully and went back to my work, but on the inside I was screaming, “I KNOW THAT! I’m the one who’s made thirty different phone calls and sent five faxes to five different people trying to get this resolved, I know it’s taking forever, I don’t know WHY person X doesn’t have the data for me, but I can’t make it appear in her files through sheer force of will! I’m checking in on this case every single day, and I keep getting sent around in circles, and I don’t know what else I can do since I don’t have a magic wand to wave to make this person give me the info!” Looking back on it, he wasn’t trying to insult my work ethic or imply I haven’t been working hard, but that’s absolutely what it felt like in the moment. I need to try and squash those feelings, because I don’t want them to affect my work.

    1. afiendishthingy*

      No advice, just a “me too.” I think I’m better than I used to be, but I still get insecure and defensive sometimes. I try to just remember that my competence and worth doesn’t change based on what other people say or think, and to separate “the employee in the Teapot Analysis department, whose name is Afiendishthingy” from “Afiendishthingy the Person”. It’s hard though.

    2. Dawn*

      Hm. A couple things stand out here (from a former “gets totally defensive” person!) One is that it seems like you’re going way above and beyond what you need to do in order to get information from people- particularly the “drove 40 minutes out of my way to get incomplete documentation.” So that could be driving some of the defensiveness- a subconscious feeling of “But I ALWAYS go the extra mile! I ALWAYS martyr myself! Why doesn’t anyone CARE like I do?” That’s one area you could scale back greatly on- sure, extend a hand to help someone where you can, but hold other people responsible for their own stuff. This could look like asking someone for a file twice and then going to your boss or their boss and asking what you can do to get the file.

      Another thing is the meeting with your boss. One way to head things like that off at the pass is keeping your boss informed of everything you’ve done so far in a nice bullet point email before you go into an update meeting. So it’d be like “Teapot Order 214- Waiting on X (emailed Fergus on this date. Called on this date. he said he’d have it by yesterday. Called yesterday afternoon and left voicemail. No contact today) etc. etc. etc.” That way you have something to point to and say “I have tried all these things and I am still stuck. Can you please help me figure out what to do next?” That way your boss knows *exactly* what you have already done and can see all the work you’ve put in! Now, if your boss is still a butt after that it’s probably a bigger problem than you being defensive :) However approaching it from that angle- “Hey I’ve tried everything I know to do and there’s still a problem, I need you, as my manager, to help me!”- will go a long way towards making you feel less defensive.

      1. LizB*

        The “40 minutes out of my way” thing was a bit of an exaggeration — it was 40 minutes, but driving to get documentation is technically part of my job, and we get reimbursed for mileage. This organization is just waaaay outside of my usual work area, literally in the opposite direction from the other places I needed to go that day. So, mildly annoying, but not actually outside the scope of my job.

        This is a big part of my frustration — I keep detailed case notes in our reporting system, and also update the spreadsheet my boss insists on using for case notes because he doesn’t understand how to read our reporting system, so he has access to my progress in two different written forms. I’ve also spoken to him about this case before several times, and each time I remind him of the context and the steps I’ve taken. The problem is, he doesn’t seem to retain even the tiniest memory of this case (or any case, for that matter); every single time I bring it up, I explain everything about it in great detail, and then I inevitably have to re-explain that yes, I did do Obvious Step A two weeks ago, and I also did Obvious Step B last week. I don’t expect him to know as much about my cases as I do, but it’s so frustrating to say “So I’m still having trouble with the White Chocolate Teapots case, the one with the new spout design” and get “Wait, which case is that?” in response! He doesn’t remember the basic context, he doesn’t remember any of our previous conversations, he doesn’t remember the advice he’s given me previously… I’ve been busting my butt, and he somehow doesn’t know that I’ve been doing any work at all, so he keeps giving me these obnoxious prompts to just work harder/get it done faster. I don’t know if I’m expecting too much of him, but it’s really starting to annoy me.

        1. Dawn*

          Ha ha ha OK that sounds like your boss is just a super frustrating person to work with! If you’re doing your best to keep him up to date on everything and it’s still not working, it might ultimately be a personality clash unfortunately.

    3. Lib Lady*

      It sounds like you are quickly recognizing the feelings as defensiveness when they happen and you are preventing yourself from reacting outwardly in the moment. I think you are doing great!

    4. Ad Astra*

      I can be that way, too. It sounds like you’re doing a pretty good job of not saying defensive things when you’re feeling defensive. I also had a boss who made me walk him through every project from the beginning whenever I had a problem, so you have my sympathy there.

      Instead of “ok,” you can always respond to your boss with something like “Yeah, I agree” or “That’s the goal!” or something that indicates you’re aware that, yes, you know that. Just make sure it’s a comment that comes off as collaborative and not combative. It might make you feel a little more in control of the situation.

      1. LizB*

        My problem is, whenever I say something longer than “Okay!” I feel like I end up sounding snarky — I’ve tried things like “That’s the goal!” or “Yep, I’ll keep working on it,” and I feel like he must be able to hear the “I’m so frustrated I want you to drop through the floor right now” edge to my voice. Maybe I’ll just have to work on that.

    5. Argh!*

      If you report on having trouble getting something done without listing the things you’ve tried, it’s your boss’s job to make sure you did those things. You didn’t communicate them, so the boss solicited them. Why take it personally? How would your boss know if you hadn’t said it at the outset?

      1. LizB*

        The problem is I have communicated with him about what I’ve done, multiple times in multiple formats, and quite recently — he just apparently doesn’t remember. I don’t expect him to remember all the details of what I’ve been up to, but I do expect that if I say “I’m still working on the White Chocolate Teapots case with the weird spouts,” he won’t respond with, “Have you tried calling White Chocolate Teapots?” I realize he means well, but being constantly asked if I’ve thought about doing [Extremely Obvious First Step], when he knows I’ve already done that, feels pretty insulting.

        1. katamia*

          Oh, man, I’m exactly the same way. It feels like they’re implying I’m stupid even though rationally I know they’re not. No advice, though, just sympathy.

        2. Pinkie Pie Chart*

          Have you asked (actually asked) him to take it up the chain? You’ve done everything (and more) that you could do and have gotten no response. He should be able to light a fire under their asses, or at the very least, connect with someone who can.

          I feel you so much. We’re in the process of trying to figure out a problem with our hosting service. It’s been nearly a month and we have finally (finally!) gotten a real live human being who has replicated our problem. Of course, we haven’t gotten a fix, or even an acknowledgement that this really is a problem that they need to fix, but baby steps…

    6. Jinx*

      I’m looking forward to reading the suggestions on this, since defensiveness is something I struggle with. I work on a developer team, and sometimes it feels like we only get recognized for making mistakes.

      One time, I got a communication from a QA person reporting a defect in a completely new piece that had a lot of complicated interconnections. I confirmed that it was a problem and said I’d fix it, and she responded “Don’t you guys test before giving things to us?” Yes, we do test, which is why only one problem got through instead of ten. That was probably the angriest I’ve been in a work situation, so it’s a good thing that conversation was over IM. :/

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Well, I am going the opposite way on this one. When you started your post I thought you were going to tell us about some little things that come up here and there. That’s not what you told us.
      You told us about a boss that has no idea what you do or how you do it. And you told us about how he provides absolutely NO support when you need help. Then the icing on the cake, he can’t even remember what you are working on.

      At this point, I want to leave YOUR job. It’s not even my job!

      The way I read your post is that you had problem X. You did 27 things to try to pull it together, nothing worked. You went to the boss saying “I am having a problem” and he replied with “work harder”. The guy is so disconnected from your work he might as well be in the opposite hemisphere.

      No, he wasn’t trying to insult your work ethic, it’s more like he was trying NOT to work himself. It’s probably not helpful to you, but I don’t see any evidence here that says you have a problem with knee-jerk defensiveness. I think your boss needs to be aware of what you are doing and the great lengths you go to in order to accomplish your mission. If it were me I would be hopping angry that my boss was so lazy.

      So I guess that every Monday I would give him a list of projects that I am working on for the week. I would also sit down and tell him that once in a while I hit a brick wall and I could use his advice or his actual intervention in some instances.

      In your boss’ favor I will say this: Sometimes a boss gets a good employee and they forget what goes into the job. They need the good employee to stop them in their tracks with, “Time out! I need some insight or intervention here.” At that point I would explain, “I have done these 27 things and I have come up empty. I need an authority figure to step in or I need some additional resources that I am not aware of.” A good boss will stop what they are doing and provide whatever they can to help the situation.
      It could be that you are what my husband called an “automatic employee”, you need very little supervision and you have very few problems that you cannot solve on your own. Sometimes bosses get so used to everything humming along that they are genuinely surprised to hear that the good employee hit a bump in the road. Not sure if this applies to your situation- I am taking a shot in the dark here. It sounds like you are pretty resourceful and you stick to something until it’s done. I am willing to bet your boss has gotten used to this.

      1. LizB*

        I don’t think he’s lazy, but he’s brand new to managing, brand new to this kind of work, and… maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed? Or has least has some organization and memory problems? He always seems to make tasks as complicated as humanly possible, and doesn’t seem to have a good sense of how to manage people — sometimes he’s intensely micromanage-y, sometimes he’s way too hands-off and unhelpful. I also think he knows next to nothing about the very complicated and political field we’re working in, so when I go to him with questions he doesn’t really know what to suggest, so he just gives a vague non-answer or ends up putting it back on me. I’m definitely an “automatic employee” — if I’m going to my manager with a question, it’s because I’ve looked for the answer in ten different places already and I really, truly can’t find it, so his lack of support is extra annoying to me. I know he’s still learning, but I really wish he’d learn faster, because right now he’s fairly useless as a manager.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ohhh… perhaps he is still a bit nervous, also. Okay. So I guess I would have a serious talk with him about the types of things you need from him. While I would not be rude/demanding I would not just let it go either. He is never going to learn his job if he is not facing what he needs to do.

          Maybe you could ask him if it is okay for you to email updates on Mondays so he can know what it is you’re working on. When you do have a question let him know what your routine procedure is and then explain how it did not work this time. While I hate saying, “Old Boss did x when faced with y situation.” You could say, “I need a person with your level of authority stepping in here and doing x so I can get z which fixes y problem.” I have used that a lot with new bosses, I emphasize that I don’t have the authority to proceed but they do.

          Basically I would go instance by instance and teach him how to support me in doing my work for him. I hate it when this happens. But I usually end up in a good place, the boss lets me just do my job without bs because he knows I CAN do my job. It takes a few chats to get to that place, though.

          Notice how I am skipping the micro-management stuff and the other stuff. Not my job to fix all that. I just focus on what parts impact me and I focus on my relationship with the boss. If he’s going to be a decent boss other things will fall into place as you go along.

  32. Mike C.*

    Holy crap I’m having an awesome week. I just commandeered a double sized cubicle normally reserved for management in an area that is nearly devoid of other employees and other distractions. High walls and one of the walls is a magnetic whiteboard. The best part is that I’m no longer a whole bay away from my direct manager. And if I need folks, there’s actually room for 3-4 in here.

  33. Sunny*

    How do you guys balance looking for a a job and your regular life?

    When I have an upcoming interview and need to do a presentation, I don’t have time for anything else; laundry, unloading a dishwasher etc. And I am lucky! I don’t have kids or a spouse and I work part time. The interview process is not draining, but the drain on my personal life is suffering!

    By the way, when others were dreaming about the lottery a couple of weeks ago, I was dreaming about how great a new job would be.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      How often are you interviewing? What aspects of your personal life are suffering? Is it a matter of actually not having time, or not having the energy for other things?

      I’m taking a break from my job search because it was too hard for me to have a balance. I was lucky in that I got a bunch of interviews – but the time I spent planning, worrying, arranging my schedule so no one at work suspected and actually going to the interview became so exhausting that I didn’t have much energy for anything else.

      1. Sunny*

        Not super often as there are not a ton of jobs that I am applying for. I have had three since November, two in the last month. For the last two, I got to make presentations. I think the making of the presentations was the most time-consuming part and didn’t allow me to investigate the company as much as I normally would. Maybe the fact that these were back to back and it sort of killed me?

        1. Sunflower*

          How much time are you spending preparing for these interviews? Is it the interview prep or the searching and applying that are exhausting you? Because they are two very different things.

      2. Tris Prior*

        yes, this! I feel like job hunting is my second full-time job (and I’m working full time plus running my own business on the side), which is why I posted my “how do you know if you’re looking hard enough” question below.

        It is so exhausting! Not just looking/applying, but little things you don’t think of until you have an interview – like, for me, having to go find a professional-looking purse and shoes because I didn’t own any.

        My only advice is to try and streamline other stuff in your life to make it easy on yourself – like, I picked up some easy ready-made food because my scratch-cooking time is being taken up with the job hunt. And staying up really late to get chores done. It SUCKS. :(

  34. Temperance*

    What are some useful tips on how to push back when work is being delegated to you that isn’t really part of your job description? For reference, I’m an attorney and have been recently delegated some marketing pieces for our program, which isn’t really my job (nor, candidly, is it something I am interested in doing or a skill that I want to develop).

    Any advice? I already set their deadlines after my other work/more pressing work, but they still expect me to do these drafts for them. I admit that I’m a little bitter because our Marketing people are either constantly “working from home” or out the door at 4:59 p.m., which is not the case for me.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I work at a small company and this happens to me a lot because we don’t have an administrative assistant or anything. I usually say something like “You know, this isn’t really my area of expertise – do you think Jane might be able to do it better or faster?” Another example I have: I was asked to stuff envelopes and do mailers. I pointed out how expensive these mailings were becoming when I spent my time doing them, and how it was taking my time away from higher-level work, and asked if he wanted to outsource it to another company, or if there was someone else who could do it without making it really expensive.

    4. ThisLawyerLife*

      I’m coming at this from the perspective of a law firm associate, so take with a grain of salt if you are differently situated, but this kind of request is pretty typical at my firm and there is not really a way to push back completely. Assisting with marketing, pitches, articles, etc. is just part of the non-billable work we’re expected to do as good firm citizens, though we do get some credit toward our billable hours.

      One soft way to push back would be to tell them that you can assist, but not until X date when your schedule clears. If you can be assistance at that time, they can let you know. They have to decide whether they want to wait. Or instead of drafting the pieces for them, can you just direct them to the information they need and let them know you are happy to offer comments on their final draft?

      To push back completely, you may need buy-in from your supervisor. During that conversation, I would be sure you can articulate why it doesn’t make sense from a business perspective for you to do it instead of focusing on why you don’t want to do it (which believe me, I totally get!).

      1. Sunflower*

        I work in marketing at a law firm so I second this! Ask your manager how much you are expected to contribute. Without knowing what you are asked to do or about your firm, I’m not sure if it’s reasonable or over the top.

    5. Professionally Anon*

      Can you go to your manager and discuss it? A lot of work that other people don’t want to do gets dumped on our office and she’s really good at telling us how to respond to that.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is good advice for any work setting. When someone outside your department gives you work, check with the boss to see if she approved it and you have clearance to work on it. (Two steps here, she may have approved it but she meant for Bob to work on it.)

    6. anon attorney*

      Hi there. I also have this happen to me. I think it’s difficult to avoid altogether or st least without incurring some career detriment. I like to see it as proactively managing the client base; in other words, if I can have some influence over how we market our services I can cut out some of the frustration and time wasting that arises from fielding inquiries from potential new clients that are not a good fit for our fee or service levels. So if you can see it as a firm of optimising that might pay off further down the pipeline, it might feel less of an imposition? Saying that, I must admit I rather like doing a bit of copywriting, so it’s not hugely onerous for me, if you’re not so keen on that it must be a PITA.

  35. anon47*

    Hi folks! I’m in the middle of interviews (thanks to great advice from AAM) for several different organizations. I’m excited about them, and have been thinking about leaving my job (and city) for a while, so it seems like it’s all good, right?

    Except now I’m getting cold feet! My supervisor is totally supportive of my job search, but also mentioned that my contract is more stable than previously thought, and a big project is coming up that he wants to recommend me for, which would be a big promotion. Also, the city I live in and have been so unhappy in for the past 4 years is slowly starting to not suck so much. Everyone told me it takes 4-5 years to feel settled here, and I guess that’s happening. Also also, this organization pays far above industry standard, so I would be taking a 20-30k pay cut wherever I go, although the cost of living is much cheaper most other places too.

    The reasons I’ve been wanting to leave: unstable contract, city I don’t want to be in forever, boss that’s a friend but also full of anger and hard to work with, wanting to grow in my role in ways the organization can’t support. But, the contract is better, the city is growing on me, the boss might change, and there may be some room for growth.

    I’ve moved around every 2-4 years since high school, so part of this might be itchy feet and the grass looking greener on the other side. How do I think this out and make the right choice?

    1. lulu*

      Sounds to me like you have graduation goggles (the rosy colored glasses you get when you’re about to leave a place or a relationship). The city is slowly starting to suck less (1) after 4 years? There “might” be a big project coming soon for you to be involved in? Your boss is trying to retain you, which makes sense, but ask yourself if anything has actually changed. Then weigh that against any offers you might receive. Do the math on the pay cut vs. lower cost of living. Basically keep on going with your job search and make the decision when you have an offer in hand

    2. Ms. Anne Thrope*

      The boss won’t change. You may get used to the city or whatever, but if the boss is angry and difficult, he’s angry and difficult forever.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, if Boss thinks OP is set on leaving he could be doing Mr Nice Guy on a temporary basis.

    3. IT_Guy*

      Don’t believe the boss about the contract work if it’s not in writing. The contract is most likely something you have now way of influencing, and could get blindsided if/when it changes.

    4. Bubba*

      I am sort of going through the same thing! I really do think it’s the syndrome of suddenly thinking, “oh, maybe he’s not really so bad” just before you break up with someone. But it is very disconcerting to have this sudden reversal of feeling as I get closer and closer to actually making my move.

    5. Sunflower*

      I wouldn’t blame this on cold feet or grass being greener. Your boss is mean, you’ve plateaued at your company, you don’t like the city. If everything was going great at work and you still wanted to move, then maybe I could see it. Sounds the money is the only thing tempting to keep you there. Depending on where you live now and where you’re looking to move, 20-30k might not even be that that much. For example, you can live in the midwest on 50k WAY better than you can live on 75k in SF

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I think you should collect up more facts before making a final decision. Find out about these companies, their culture and their cities. Sometimes indecision or mixed emotions comes from simply not having enough facts.

      Another trick you can do is picture yourself five years from now or ten years from now. Where are you? What are you doing? Sometimes this question just brings me back to reality because I instantly say, “NOT HERE!” A knee jerk reaction can tell us everything we need to know about what we want.

      I don’t see any problem with moving about. The problem comes in when we are not deliberate about our decisions. Know your own personal goals and know what is important to you. Nail that stuff down. Now which job meshes the best with your goals and with what is important to you?

  36. Irma*

    I was just terminated from a job because I took an extended leave of absence. This absence was a sick leave covered by a doctor’s note; I have major depression and was suicidal and had to not be in my triggering workplace. Because this workplace does not have FMLA (it’s too small), everything was done slap-dash without anyone communicating with me but of course I knew that my position wasn’t air-tight and wouldn’t necessarily be waiting for me.

    It wasn’t, I was fired, and now I am worried that this company will not approve Unemployment Insurance out of spite because I “abandoned” my job and was “absentee.” What should I do if this happens? I have doctor’s notes and I have a diagnosis that is well documented.

    1. HR Recruiter*

      Check and see if your diagnosis qualifies as a disability under the ADA. Your leave of absence may have been covered by ADA. You won’t know if they will approve unemployment until you try.

      1. Irma*

        The diagnosis does qualify. The question is: Do *they* know that at my erstwhile place of employment? I’ve already put in my claim to the Dept of Labor. I’m hoping they approve it.

        1. Elle the new Fed*

          Make sure you have the documents about the time off being medically necessary and you can present that to the Dept of Labor if your former employer disputes the claim.

        2. fposte*

          Smart to put in a claim. At this point it doesn’t matter what we say–it’s what the DOL says.

    2. Jerzy*

      You might want to look into disability insurance in addition to unemployment insurance. If you can’t/couldn’t work due to a medical condition (and mental illness is a medical condition) you might be covered. Unfortunately, the system isn’t the easiest to navigate in some states, which is a shame because the people who need it the most are the people who can least afford to be jerked around.

      Talk to your doctor and reach out to the local disability office, as well as applying for your unemployment insurance.

    3. LQ*

      File unemployment. Be as detailed as you can be with all your conversations and documentations. They may need you to fill out multiple forms. Keep filling them out. Apply right away, don’t wait.

      You may have another issue with unemployment, if you aren’t currently able to work you may not be eligible that way. If that happens make sure you know exactly what you need to do when you are able to work to show them that you can start collecting.

    4. fposte*

      Then you file an appeal.

      Given your situation, you may also need documentation that you’re medically fit for work again, because you have to be willing and able to accept work to be eligible for UI; you may need to make it clear you’re not saying you were too disabled to work but not too disabled to be eligible for UI.

      1. LQ*

        Yes, if your employer tries to object, file an appeal. (It varies from state to state, but it shouldn’t be too onerous to do.) Absolutely appeal.

    5. Meg*

      You may also want to check your state medical leave acts to see if your leave qualified under that – many states have leave policies that cover smaller workplaces and/or kick in in shorter timeframes than FMLA.

  37. Audiophile*

    I’ve been waiting for the open thread, hit refresh around 11 but no open thread, and then forgot to hit refresh again until just now. Grr.

    Anyway, I’m hoping to get some tips on the best way to diplomatically ask my manager to provide context when she asks to speak with me. The current method isn’t working for me, it’s too vague and just sends me into an immediate panic that I’m going to be told I screwed something up or that they’re letting me go.

    Does anyone have any ideas? I know she can provide context because she’s done it before, but is there anyway I can get her to regularly do this?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I usually ask “Is there anything data (or whatever is appropriate for your job) that you want me to bring to this meeting to help the discussion?” Or something along those lines.

      1. Audiophile*

        I like this idea. Asking if I should bring anything, should provide the little bit of context that I’m looking for.

    2. Jules the First*

      You sound like you have a bit of toxic oldjob post traumatic stress. You should be talking to your boss regularly, so 90% of the time it will be nothing to worry about.

      You could ask her if the two of you could have a weekly standing meetig for this sort of stuff, or you could just reply to her requests with ‘sure – woulf it be useful if I prepared something for this?’ It will depend on your relationship with your manager.

      1. Audiophile*

        I’ve definitely worked in some toxic environments. In previous jobs, I wasn’t told I did something wrong right away, sometimes it would be weeks or months later. And the last time I had a job in this field (communications/marketing/social media) it was a disaster and I was told everything was fine until it wasn’t and I was being dismissed.

        So while my current job is the complete opposite of the disastrous one, in that I’m regularly praised and told my work is acceptable, it’s hard to keep from thinking the worst when I get a vague request like that.

        We do talk pretty regularly, but it’s still jarring to be summoned without context.

        I’m not worried about losing my job, but it’s hard not to think that in the moment.

        1. BRR*

          I would just say, “I get a little anxious being asked to come to your office, would you be able to give me a heads up what it’s about.”

          1. Audiophile*

            I like this a lot. I know she doesn’t realize it’s making me anxious. And I’m sure once I tell her it will resolve this or at least lessen it a little bit.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think a second step is necessary here, too. Ask her how you are doing. Mix that question in with other questions. You can make offers where appropriate, “Oh I see that X needs some work. Would you like me to work on it in my spare time?” You might find that you have a situation where you have to chose between A and B and you are stymied. Ask her for a rule of thumb when you encounter the A/B dilemma.

      Reassurance comes from more than one place. It’s reassuring to know your boss’ thinking on things. It’s also reassuring to know that you can ask questions. There are many ways a boss can convey “all is well”. Find more ways that you feel reassured about your boss and your continuing employment.

  38. Carrie in Scotland*

    I’m having a bit of a rubbish week. I had 2 interviews last week for 3 positions and was rejected for all of them. I asked for feedback for the job with 2 positions open (which I really wanted) which boiled down to no being specific enough in my answers or detail. It was my first experience of a behavioural interview but I’ve now got a mere 11.5 days left of my current job before I move home to a city whose reliance on 1 industry is undergoing mass layoffs.

    Still though, maybe I’ll get the next job I’m applying for…right?

    1. Intern Wrangler*

      Right. I know it’s tough, but look at what you’ve learned and how you will be able to bring that forward. All you need is one job offer, if it’s the right one. Hang in there!

    2. Elle the new Fed*

      Ugh, that is really tough. If you have friends who can help you practice your interviews, definitely do that. It’s really awkward at first, but at someone who interviews full time (and I had only conducted a handful before getting hired!) then it will get more comfortable with time.

      I’m sending positive thoughts though. You may definitely get the next job :)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You only need one day and one job. Positive vibes going out to you. It ain’t over yet. Hang tough.

  39. alice*

    What irks you most about your workplace? Even if you love it, there’s something.

    Mine: my boss selectively replies to emails. If it’s something he doesn’t want to deal with, he’ll ignore it while replying about more “pleasant” things.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      The complete and utter lack of communication. Oh you need that tomorrow? Why is this the first I’m hearing about it?

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I have to pick just one thing?

      In general, I’d say it’s emails. NO ONE emails the way I’d like them to. They respond to older threads without checking to see if there is something more recent that answers their question. They don’t check their sent or archived mail. They cc EVERYONE without any thought as to whether a certain person needs to be copied. They don’t CC people when it actually IS necessary.

    3. super anon*

      a lack of communication! it drives me absolutely batty – if you do someone that annoys/irritates/bothers someone, or they perceive that you’ve slighted them in some way, they’ll either a) go to your manager to complain about you, or b) file an official grievance against your for bullying, etc. you also can’t ask people directly for something, if you do it’s seen a rude and unprofessional and people will complain about you. you also need to pad out all of your emails, requests with filler words (think: “hi wakeen, i’m just wondering if it would be possible for you to attach the handles to the teapots? if so – could you tell me when you think the handles could be attached? if you’re too busy it’s ok! i just wanted to get an eta! have a great day!” when what you really mean is “we need this done asap because the deadline is in 30 minutes. do it now”) i’m used to being more direct in my communication and talking to people when i have issues, etc so it’s been hard for me to adjust.

      1. Random citizen*

        YES, this!!! Except no one tells a manager or files an official grievance if they’re annoyed by something – at best you’ll get a complaint to a coworker, so you’ve got random people upset at each other for who-even-knows-why-anymore. The best/worst part is that I get along pretty well with most of the people I work with – I like them, enjoy working and occasionally chatting with them, and I’m always trying to be awesome at my job/get them information/files they need in time, etc. So I get to be the go between for various coworkers who are sort-of, not really, speaking to each other. Drives me insane! But I love my workplace and coworkers, I really do. It’s just that I wish they would all for Pete’s sake TALK TO EACH OTHER!!

      2. Olie*

        I have a co-worker that gossips and complains about everyone. The problem is, she is easily offended and loves drama, and so complains to our manager about petty issues that have been left to fester instead of addressing it. Unfortunately, I think that the manager thinks that he/she is being a good boss by addressing these concerns with the accused party, but is really just enabling this coworker to make overblown complaints that would otherwise be no big deal. Oh, and she CCs everyone for “Thank you!”.

    4. Kelly L.*

      People just picking out a keyword and making up what they think the rest of your words say.

      So if I say out loud, or email, a message like “I need to know how many teapots to order by Friday,” I’ll get “The teapots are green.” It’s like emailing Paypal’s automated customer service, except it even happens when I’m standing right there talking to the person.

    5. Sascha*

      People being territorial about their work or systems. I’m in higher ed IT, and I’ve spent that last 6 years trying to figure out how data gets from one place to another on campus. I’m not asking for access, I’m not asking for the data, I’m not even asking anyone to do extra work – I simply want to know the flow, so when a student calls me up with a problem, I know where to send them. It’s like pulling teeth to get anyone to open up around here.

      1. Anna*

        See, mine is the opposite. People thinking they can or should have a say in how something I’m responsible for is done. These are peers and do not have any say over anything I do. I know they probably think they’re being helpful but it actually feels like they think they should be involved in all decision making because it touches on their areas. Guess what! They do not!

    6. Mockingjay*

      Emails from the laziest guy in the building:

      “Where is this file?” The same SharePoint folder those files are always in. You posted in that folder yesterday, so you had to have seen it.

      “What’s the status of this document?” I get this one when his boss leans on him for status the day before the document is due. I finally asked him, “Fred, did you actually look at the file?” “Well, no.” “Here, let’s pull it up. As you can clearly see in the metadata, I have addressed all the comments and have produced the final document. I sent you and the boss a workflow for approval.” “Oh.”

      Next month: “What’s the status?”

      *Head bangs on desk.*

      1. OfficePrincess*

        Just this week I had “Where is this file”‘s evil twin – “It would be nice if we had an electronic copy of the spout attachment SOP” “There is. It’s in the ‘Assembly SOPs’ folder”.

    7. Ama*

      Oh, I’ve had this this week — it’s that my department seems to have busy periods that are the exact opposite of every other department here. It’s been particularly pronounced this month because operations is taking advantage of being past year end and before our events schedule really heats up to schedule all these HR things (we had harrassment training yesterday, the retirement account planners were here earlier in the week, etc.). Meanwhile I had one major project deadline on January 15 and another next week. Everyone else here is so events oriented that even though they know I’m working on stuff they just keep forgetting that my busiest periods don’t show up on our event calendar.

    8. Lia*

      The habit almost everyone here has of calling and NOT leaving a message nor sending a followup email if they need something. So if I am out of my office, come back, and my phone is flashing “missed call” I have no context to place it in, have to call the other person, and hope they are a) there and b) remember what it was about.

      ARGH.

      1. LQ*

        This happens, I never call people back, I email them and say, “Noticed you call, if you still need something send me an email.” I only have a few people who still do the call and call and call at different times hoping to get me. (It helps a lot that I am often away from my desk so I can’t take a phone call but I can email.)

        1. alice*

          This happens to me all the time as well, and I never call people back either. They can use their words if they want to communicate :)

        2. Lia*

          I would do this, but the absolute worst offender is actually my boss, and he is cr*p at replying to email. I often have to send him things multiple times because I will send it, it vanishes into a black hole, and he’ll call a week later and say “did you ever do that project?” and I will reply “yes, I sent it on the 22nd”. I often call him after I send the email to prompt him to check it.

          My issue is also I hate the damned phone. Ugh.

    9. Argh!*

      My boss doesn’t reply to almost any of my e-mails. I want to believe it’s because she’s too busy, but she responds to just enough of them for me to know that my e-mails are not usually a priorty.

      But my #1 peeve is that everybody is a “private person” including people who I consider work pals. I don’t want to pry into people’s business, but the death of a spouse, getting a divorce, having a baby, etc. are major life things that friendly people let their friends know about. I appreciate this place not being gossipy but this is ridiculous. I never get a chance to send condolences or congratulations, or some people do but I’m out of the loop so I wonder whether to take it personally or whether they feel I snubbed them. It’s all just so cold.

    10. LQ*

      I have a coworker who I think is awesome, but she is super super hung up on another coworker’s perpetual 1 minute lateness. (We are in a place where it sort of matters, our boss doesn’t care.) It negates some of the very legitimate concerns about the other coworker not getting work done, but it focuses so much on the wrong problem and it’s hard to say, “If you want to complain, complain that her work isn’t getting it done which reflects on all of us and means you and I have to do it, don’t complain about when she shows up.” a thousand times.

        1. LQ*

          For me it is so much that it overwhelms all legitimate problems and is super bitch eating crackers mode thing. Like the lateness is nothing. The not getting work done is an actual, legit issue that needs to be addressed. But she can’t get past one to complain about the other in a way that our manager will listen to.

          (She’s sort of the team lead, I’m kind of team adjacent so this is her thing for her to deal with. MUAHAHAHHA I mean…)

    11. BRR*

      It’s completely open->the one person who I know more about than I know about myself.
      People emailing… well I was going to say articles about it’s so much crap I don’t even know how to list it.
      Our phones act as a PA system.
      The biggest is just get your shit together. Start meetings when they’re scheduled. Don’t use a conference room if you don’t schedule it. Cancel the conference room if you don’t need it.

    12. JDrives*

      The fact that none of my 3 higher-ups check email timely. Every one of them will check in with me on the status of something that I have already emailed them about, and when I tell them it’s been done, they ask “Well did you email me/copy me on that email??” It takes every iota of willpower to drain the snark from my voice and reply “Yes, I sent off that form, and yes I copied you on the email when I sent it last Wednesday.”

    13. Not So NewReader*

      The staggering amount of regs. It is not possible to comply with them all, there is not enough time. And we just keep getting more regs. People who write regs should be forced to actually work under the regs they write.

    15. Anonymity*

      The constantly breaking tech.
      Co-workers who need their hands held on processes they’ve been doing for months.
      Co-workers who come to me for every problem because I helped them once with a completely different thing.
      People who send us the wrong data (or no data!) and then are mad that things aren’t done on time.
      People who make department wide decisions without consulting more than their select few direct reports (because it’s not like the rest of us do anything or might have input or concerns).
      The supervisor who is no longer MY supervisor but still occasionally tries to treat me like I report to him.

    16. Anonymosity*

      That our fiscal year ends in June, not December. It messes you up if you want to travel in the summer because we only get 40 hours PTO rollover. It’s good if you’re more flexible and can travel in spring, which is part of shoulder season and cheaper anyway. The company will let you go 40 hours in the hole and then you ahve to make it up before you get actual PTO again, but then if you have to take off for illness or whatever, you don’t get paid for it.
      I’m not a parent, but that has to be difficult because most schools don’t end until late May or June. Planning a family vacation would be hard. If you go overseas, it’s not really worth the money for only a week.

    17. Raia*

      No standard communications procedures or policies. Also, getting calls to tell you what was already sent in an email by the caller 5 minutes ago.

  40. cwc123*

    I am in the middle of an interview process at a large company for an entry-level role. I had the phone screen which went well, since I made it to the next round of screening (a writing test). The HR contact said I would hear back with next steps 1-2 days after sending in the test but I heard from her with an update that the process was being pushed back due to people being out of town and I would hear something early this week. Yesterday I got an email apologizing for the delay. The HR contact mentioned the team is currently in the process of reviewing writing tests but is waiting to finish with some phone screens first before moving onto the next steps. (One very positive thing is I have not yet had to email her for a response and she has been proactive about keeping me informed)
    I am worried this means I am a middle-of-the-pack candidate and while they are not jumping to bring me in, they are keeping me in mind if nobody better comes along. Should I be worried that they are further delaying the process or is it normal for companies to bring everyone to the same step of the process before moving them forward?

    1. BRR*

      Assume you didn’t get the job and move on mentally. If you get an interview you’ll be pleasantly surprised. And there can be a million things delaying the hiring process.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I don’t really know that there is a normal, but it does make sense. Probably makes the hiring process simpler if everyone is at roughly the same stage, especially if they have any candidates that had to reschedule a phone screen or couldn’t do it right away.

  41. Susiecq*

    My boss jokes (or is serious?) about why we, as employees, can’t get raises. For example he pointa put to my team, “Oh, looks like they bought 20 new computers. If you ever wonder why you aren’t getting a raise, that’s why!” But he says it in a joking way. This makes me feel we won’t be able to comfortably approach him about raises or pay (we are hourly, but traditionally my type of work is salaried.) I’m not sure how to take that kind of information!

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      “But what are you going to do with all those shiny new computers when your employees leave for better paying jobs?

      2. Susiecq*

        Haha I love it! You hit the nail on the head. More often than not, that’s exactly what people here do!

      1. Susiecq*

        Right? I think though most of my coworkers have become desensitized to his weird brand of humor. He loves it when his employees are sarcastic to the point of brutal meanness to him. I can be as sarcastic as the next preson but I just don’t have it in me to speak as raw as he and my coworkers do. So it’s like I’m the odd one out for feeling bad about this stuff.

        1. Random citizen*

          “He loves it when his employees are sarcastic to the point of brutal meanness to him.”
          Oh man, I’ve got a coworker like this (not my manager) – sarcastic to everybody, and hitting that point with a few people, and I’m pretty sarcastic myself, so we can be a deadly combination. /Just keep repeating: Don’t yell, “You idiot, that’s a horrid idea!” when there are customers around… or a less sarcastic higher-up./

    3. BRR*

      What an ass. I’d reply in a matter of fact way like “The computers have increased productivity so we are able to make X teapots more an hour” or a good “The computers are for the business. *go into why you deserve a raise speech*.” Basically dismiss his premiss.

      1. Susiecq*

        I’d be seen as a stick in the mud, but that probably is the best way to go about it. Sticking to data that clearly shows growth to combat weirdos!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “Thanks for the heads up, Boss, we will plan accordingly.”

      OR

      “Good to know.”

      I would take that information as your boss thinks the company is a joke. He thinks its wrong to be investing so heavily in equipment and they should be investing in their people.
      I would go ahead and ask for a raise. I would tell myself “I expect to hear the NO word.” Upon hearing the NO word, I would ask when I can expect to see a raise. I would sit silently and unblinkingly while he squirmed for an answer.

      I did have this happen to me, BTW. The boss said X was our raises. Since the raises were never that great anyway, I did not believe him. And I got the same modest raise I always got.

      1. Susiecq*

        That actually makes a lot of sense to me. He’s very vocal about the decisions the higher ups make he thinks are stupid, so him saying things like that could just be a variation of that.

        Thank you for the comment, this makes me look at it a different way. And you’re right on the mark about how raises around here are meager at best so realistically yeah the computers or whatever else he points out probably don’t have a real impact on employee pay. I know for a fact the company isn’t hurting for money at all.

  42. InterviewHell*

    Four rejections in a single week

    Hello, All!

    I’m just looking for a bit of sympathy and support as I come to terms with receiving four rejections in a single five-day period. While four of the five were emails with the standard “we’ve gone with another candidate” language, the fifth is really killing me.

    For the first time in my career, I had a job offer rescinded because I attempted to negotiate salary, which I later learned is completely verboten at the organization. I even pleaded my case and reiterated my interest in taking the position as it was, but the hiring manager was so offended by my desire to see if they could match my current salary that she refused to engage me. Keep in mind, this is after two interviews, including one that lasted for 2 1/2 hours on a Friday evening!

    Please tell me that others have encountered such weird and unfortunate issues. I hate feeling as though trying to avoid an $8,000 pay cut makes me a terrible human being.

    Thanks!

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      They are nuts and you probably avoided something bad there. It’s one thing to say the job offer is what it is, we don’t negotiate. It’s another to be completely offended by something that is so normal it’s almost expected.

    3. anon47*

      That’s nuts. I’ve heard of another company doing that – a friend was offered a position, they were super friendly and excited to bring him on, and then when he tried to negotiate (since that’s what you’re supposed to do, right??) for 2k more, they rescinded the offer and refused to speak with him. I don’t understand why a company would get offended by that, as opposed to just saying that the offer is final.

    4. Carrie in Scotland*

      It’s not you, it’s them. There’s no need for the org to take it so personally. not many people would be wanting to take such a cut in pay.

      Consider it a bullet dodged and console yourself with ice cream or other choice of self indulgence.

    6. Audiophile*

      They wouldn’t even meet your current salary? I’m assuming the offer was pretty low. It can be tough to negotiate and certainly this would scare anyone off negotiating, but I don’t know how companies expect people to take a job at a a lower salary than what they’re making.
      You dodged a bullet on this one.

    7. Random citizen*

      Definitely dodged a bullet here – imagine trying to ask for a raise or promotion from this manager! Or even trying to build a working relationship with a boss who thought you were greedy or what-have-you. People work for money, and you want a boss who understands that!

    8. Ama*

      I agree with everyone else that’s not a place you want to work. Also if negotiating is so forbidden at that org they should have told you that up front. Places that expect you to just know what the norms are — especially when their norms are so far outside what others would consider the norm — are not generally good work environments.

    9. Elle the new Fed*

      Are you kidding me? That is absolutely ridiculous, especially if they didn’t tell you the offer was non-negotiable.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        Right! I’ve received an offer and they said up front, “We don’t negotiate. Here’s the offer.”

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Me too–they couldn’t negotiate because it was a government job dependent on budget. But they said that up front.

          I wouldn’t work for a place that threw a fit like that. It sounds like you didn’t miss out on anything!

    10. BRR*

      The concept of not negotiating means you dodged a bullet. The hiring manager being that offended means you dodged a bomb.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Responding to the part about the three other rejections: (Don’t count the fools that rescinded on you, they just saved your butt.) It takes guts to put yourself out there like that. You worked your tail off to even get to a place where you could say you had three rejections this week. Don’t let go of that gutsy/hard-working part of you because that is what is going to get you where you want to be. So cry, throw things, run five miles, whatever it is you do in these situations. Get it out because, yeah, it so sucks. But know that things can change, even when it appears they won’t change.

    12. Overeducated and underemployed*

      High five, I got four rejections this week too! It felt like they were just piling on. None as painful as a rescinded offer though. You got hit by bad luck there, you didn’t screw up. Hopefully it just means you will be available for a job with better pay and more reasonable management.

    13. mander*

      Gigantic bullet dodged, though, in my opinion. They are terrible human beings for reacting as if your normal, sane, reasonable request makes you some kind of ogre.

      I imagine they would shut down all your efforts to get normal stuff that employees need, like stationery and office equipment. They would nickel and dime you on travel expenses. Your raises would be minuscule or non-existent. They would probably drive you crazy with unspoken rules that are a big deal, but you have no way of knowing about.

  43. Master Bean Counter*

    One more week at my job. I’m really trying to stay focused and clean-up loose ends. The temptation to treat everybody else they way they’ve treated me for the last two years is very tempting. But that’s not how I roll. I’m much better than that. But goodness the temptation is strong.

    1. Lefty*

      You’ll leave with a good reputation and the moral high ground! I hope your next adventure goes well and the transition is smooth!

  44. Bend & Snap*

    Well…I’ve posted before that my Fortune 500 company is going through a merger and has had massive layoffs with more coming. So generally things are rough and morale is in the toilet.

    Fast forward to this week when the new leader of my org–appointed in late fall and hasn’t done ANYTHING to communicate with us minions besides have one call about the layoffs–revoked our work from home option.

    This makes me want to flip my desk and walk out. Are they trying to get people to quit? I’m an extreme introvert and my wfh day was a much-needed very productive day, plus a break from people that I really can’t live without.

    Help.

    1. LCL*

      I think they are trying to get people to quit. If I was going to implement a change that I thought employees would quit over, and I knew I had to lay people off, I would definitely do the change first. Because every person who leaves voluntarily is one less person to lay off.

      1. Graciosa*

        Agreed.

        Also, the managers are probably also afraid for their own jobs, and fear tends to produce managerial stupidity in the effort to prove that you’re doing your job. This can include wanting to have people in the office more (how can you know if they’re working if you can’t see them!) both to evaluate their performance and to prove that the manager is busy managing them.

        You didn’t ask here, but get out asap. It’s going to get worse and may never get better.

  45. Bored and Desperate*

    Please can anyone give me some advice on how to deal with having nothing to do at work?

    I work part-time, three days a week, in university administration. When I started this job, my manager said that there would be a lot of “peaks and troughs” due to the nature of the work and the academic calendar. I was familiar with this from my previous uni admin job. I’ve been in this job since August now and when I started it was definitely a busy period. There were some quiet weeks after that, but because I was new I was able to use the time to read up on procedures and to look at our plans for upcoming work. Things picked up again and November, December and early January were busy.

    However the last two weeks have been painfully slow. I literally have nothing to do except deal with a few email queries a week. Looking ahead, I don’t think I’ll have any substantial work to do until mid-March now. I share an office with two colleagues in the same role as me, but we all have individual areas of responsibility. I spoke to them and they confirmed it is a quiet period from now, they are maybe a little bit busier than me just due to our slightly different responsibilities, but they both said it will be slow until towards the end of March. I asked them what they usually do in this period and got fairly vague responses. I can’t see either of their screens so I have no idea how much work they are actually doing.

    I am bored out of my mind! I really like the tasks I have to do when I do have work to get on with, and a lot of other aspects of this job are great, but the prospect of six weeks with nothing to do is making me miserable. And it’s likely this will crop up again at other points in the year. I’ve spent the past couple of weeks doing all the “housekeeping” tasks I can think of, reading up on notes, sorting out my email inbox and folders, filing things away and so on, but now I’ve exhausted that avenue.

    I want to speak to my manager and ask her for some more work to do. But I want to do this in a diplomatic way, which I’m not sure how to handle. I definitely don’t want her to think that there is no point in employing me! I also don’t want to cause problems for my two office colleagues by highlighting that we have nothing to do if they are happy with this – for example if my manager asks me to assist them and I need to go back to her and say they have no work either. Also I want to let her know that I do understand that things will get busy again in a few weeks, and at that point I will not be able to do anything over and above my normal role. I don’t want to ask for more work and end up biting off more than I can chew, so to speak.

    Please can anyone offer any suggestions on how to go about this?

    1. anon47*

      Can you propose taking some online courses? There are lots of free ones, and you can find ones that only last a few weeks. It might help fill up the time and also add to your skillset.

    2. Mandy*

      Hi Bored! Oh man, I have been there before, and I hear you.

      I’m sure there’s a diplomatic way of talking to your manager. What if you phrased it like, “I know you mentioned at the start that there will be ‘peaks and troughs’ in the workflow due to the academic calendar, but I”m wondering if there’s a way you’d like me to focus my time during the slow periods? I’ve been working on X, Y, and Z, but I’m wondering if there’s a project that could use an extra hand.” If you have a good manager she’ll understand that you during busy times you will need to focus on priorities, and you can cross that bridge when you come to it. If you come into it with an attitude that shows you’re willing to pitch in when you can, it may help your reputation. I’d say leave your colleagues out of it for now, as well – if she suggests offering to help them but they don’t have much, you could always just say “Jill advised me she’s in a really good spot right now – is there any other area where I could be of help?”

      Good luck!!

    3. Ama*

      The slow times at my past university jobs were how I had enough time to teach myself Access, inDesign, and — one particularly dead summer when we were between department heads — enough CSS to completely revamp our department website. It was basically based around looking around for the “hey wouldn’t it be nice if…” kinds of projects and figuring out what I would need to learn to do them (“hey wouldn’t it be nice if our website didn’t look like it was designed in 1998?” “hey wouldn’t it be nice if our regular publicity flyers weren’t set up in Word?” “hey wouldn’t it be nice if I could track all of the department’s student teaching assignments in a database instead of having to manually look through each year’s list to find out how many students had been historically assigned to a particular teacher?”)

      1. Sophia Brooks*

        I did this too- well, I taught myself Filemaker and got really good at it. I learned Indesign and Quark, as well as some photoshop and illustrator. Also, Dreamweaver.

        1. Bored and Desperate*

          I agree that using the time to learn new skills would be a good idea. Unfortunately my job doesn’t require me to use anything other than Word, Excel and Outlook, and I already did a ton of training courses on those at my last job (during quiet periods then!). I don’t even have access to those other software programs you mentioned to self study.

          The main thing is I feel I should let my manager know that it’s so slow rather than just trying to find things for myself to do. I don’t want her to be annoyed that I’ve spent my time doing software tutorials if there was other work I could be doing.

          1. Jennifer*

            I would not recommend asking because it literally points out to them that they have no work and can easily get rid of you. Hell, writing a novel while at work would probably be better than literally saying you have nothing to do.

            Been burnt on this one: if they had work for you to do, you’d be doing it.

          2. Anna*

            Are there any process improvements you could propose to your boss? Things hanging out in the department that nobody has gotten to/doesn’t want to do that you could take on? Keep in mind that even though you only use those programs and you’ve taken a lot of training on them, that doesn’t mean you couldn’t do some online courses to learn other things.

          3. mander*

            Why not pick something that *you* might like to know how to do, and which is vaguely related/could conceivably be useful in the future, and work on that? Stuff like Access, InDesign, CSS, web authoring and coding skills in general, etc. might possibly be useful not just for your job but maybe for you someday.

            I wish that kind of stuff had been around (or that I had known about it) the last time I had a dull job. I literally spent whole weeks with no tasks whatsoever in a silent office by myself playing online jigsaw puzzles, when I could have been learning how to write web pages and making a fortune in the dotcom boom.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I would not worry about biting off too much. You can frame it as small projects (plural because they are small) to work on for the next few weeks. If she does give you something that is big, ask about time frame or ask if you can just work on that one thing so it is completed before the next big push.

      When you are in the thick of your next big push, start a list of things that would be nice to have in place and you could work on during your next lull.

      I would not worry about them firing you because you implied they did not have enough work. I think I’d be more worried about, “I did not ask for something to do and they are wondering why I did not ask.” I had bosses that would wait to see how long it would take for a person to ask for something to do. In a couple instances the people who did not ask for more work were the first to go when layoffs rolled around.

    5. Girasol*

      Sometimes there’s a lull in work and there just isn’t anything to do. The boss intends to keep you because the dry season will end soon and there will be a ton of work later, but there aren’t any good answers for “what can I do?” now. I learned (almost the hard way!) to ask once for additional work but don’t nag. You don’t want to make your boss feel they’re failing in their job to keep people productively working when there’s nothing they can, at the moment, do about it. Training is good but if it’s not an option find a way to stay occupied that maintains an illusion of happy worker – creative writing, reading professional improvement books, etc.

  46. Liz*

    First I wanted to say thanks to everyone who helped me out last week (Marina, LisaLee, BRR) with my situation of waiting to hear back about returning to my internship company for a full time position and having another offer in the opposite side of the country. It all ended up working out, and yesterday OldManager let me know they got the approval to recruit and I sent in my materials to be forwarded to HR! I’m now just waiting on the official offer since I’m the only one being considered for the position which should hopefully come early next week. (And apparently the new manager was already talking about me in a not-so-positive way before I officially turned down their offer, so I’m not at all upset about dodging that one. It was very Jekyll-Hyde based on what I’ve been told by someone I know there)

    One question that I encountered yesterday: How to write a cover letter for a position that was created for you?

    I know it was more of a formality than a necessity, but it still felt strange trying to explain my work to the person who assigned it to me. I ended up highlighting my favorite projects and why, and reiterating my desire to return to the team and continue with the work I was doing. Was that the general right path, or was there maybe something else I should have done?

    1. fposte*

      That sounds like a great approach to me; not pretending you’ve never met them, not acting they should totally assume your wonderfulness without any details.

      1. Anna*

        Definitely acknowledge what you learned and did during the internship and talk about how you’re excited to put it in to practice as an official employee.

  47. Tris Prior*

    Playing the “forget about the job interview I had that went really well, assume I didn’t get it and move on with life” game this week. :/ My contact there said that they hire really slowly and filling this role is not an emergency. Argh. I only have a month left at my job before I am laid off. :( Starting to freak out because all the jobs I am seeing are a) part time, b) contract, c) not do-able location wise (I don’t have a car), and/or d) pay less than I’m making now (high 20s in a high-COL city).

    This question came up in my therapy appointment this week. How do you know if you are working hard enough at finding a job? These days, I come home from a brutal exhausting workday every night and then force myself to look for/apply to jobs. But I always feel like I should be doing MORE. Like, I’m not finding the full-time jobs in my city that pay what I need them to because I’m not looking hard enough, or spending enough time looking. What is “enough” here? I mean, I figure once my job’s over I’ll have nothing but time and I won’t be mentally and physically fried from having just spent 8 hours working on a sinking ship ….. but I really really wanted to have something lined up before my layoff date. That is probably unrealistic though. :(

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think you actually do know when you are working hard enough at finding a job.

      But when you reach your mental/physical limits that is where you must stop and go to bed.

      I guess it’s a personal thing, everyone has a different answer? “I stay up to 3 am every morning applying for jobs.” Well, that has never been ME!

      In a way I think it’s a sucky question. Let’s see, work all day, job hunt at home for a bit, get ready for your next work day….. You really don’t need to waste precious time and energy analyzing if you have done enough job hunting. It is what it is- given the limited amount of time available- you are doing what you can. Period.

      I think a more appropriate question would be are you able to keep yourself somewhat organized so you are not wasting precious time looking all over for a reminder note or a phone number?

      1. Tris Prior*

        Thanks for the perspective! I’m using some tips I learned here in open thread a few weeks ago to stay organized with the job search and that is really helping.

        Maybe I just need to accept that even though I am doing as much as I feel I can, that will not magically make more full time jobs that I am qualified for appear. I mean, if there are really that few, job hunting for 24 hours a day would not change that!

        1. Overeducated and underemployed*

          That’s the realization I’ve reached. I’d like to apply for a job a day, but even if I could make the time, most weeks 4-5 of those would not be jobs I’d want or jobs that would want me. It’s not all effort, there’s also luck and timing involved.

  48. LibrarianJ*

    TL;DR: How many doctor appointments is too many? When does it start to look bad?

    Despite being young and theoretically in good health, this has been a record-setting year in health issues. It seems like there is something new popping up every few weeks, often unrelated to any of the previous issues. My medical group offers a walk-in clinic that’s open nights/weekends, so I try to do as much as possible there, but sometimes it’s inevitable that I’ll have to take care of something during regular business hours (especially with specialists, which I seem be acquiring quite a collection of…). Until recently, I wasn’t allowed to use sick time for preventative care, but my manager has always been great about letting us use comp/flex time to fit in shorter appointments.

    However, lately I feel like I’m in and out of some doctor’s office every week, and I’m starting to feel uncomfortable every time I must send *yet another* e-mail asking to pop out for a couple of hours. My manager has never expressed any concerns about my performance, and I don’t think there’s any doubt that I get my work done and usually put in well over 40 hours/week. Some of the issues are visible and I’m comfortable being open about them (e.g., a broken bone, or chronic allergies that my manager shares), but others are definitely in the TMI category, which means it’s hard to explain why it came up so suddenly or to say ‘sorry, specialist says I must follow-up on X and this is the only day he had!’ But of course, a sequence of vaguely-described ‘doctor’s appointments’ probably looks pretty weird. Any advice?

    1. Dawn*

      Be honest with your manager about it- have a quick convo and say “Hey, I want to touch base on this- I have had a lot of doctor’s appointments crop up in a row lately and I want to make absolutely sure that you’re OK with how that’s being handled right now. I try my best to go outside of work hours as much as possible, but sometimes that’s not able to happen. I want to let you know that I’m (doing these things) to ensure my productivity isn’t taking a hit, and I don’t think it has, but I want to check in with you because this is going to continue to pop up every couple of weeks until these short-term medical issues are resolved.”

      It sounds like your boss is and would continue to be fine with it, but this way you’re pro-actively bringing it up and saying hey, I get that it’s an inconvenience and here’s what I’m doing to reduce the impact.

      1. Aunt Vixen*

        Yes, this. I played it the other way once and had a manager who got (justifiably!) a little annoyed at me and presented a record of my sick days, wfh days, and doctor’s appointments over a period of about ten weeks; everything wasn’t quite under control by then, but I hadn’t been forthcoming enough about how unusual and surprising every aspect of the thing was and she had been thinking something like “Great, my previously excellent employee is turning into a slacker and I’ve just let it happen.” Going forward I kept her one degree further in the loop and she pivoted from slightly annoyed to incredibly sympathetic really gracefully, so all was well.

    2. anon for this*

      I’ve had the same thing recently–an embarrassing number of doctor’s appointments, for something that I’m not comfortable telling my boss about. The last time I had to e-mail my boss about a couple more upcoming appointments, I just added on an apology/acknowledgment about all the time off lately and said that I was dealing with a non-serious but persistent medical issue. I’m middle management and I know he doesn’t have concerns about my performance or making up the time, but I still felt like it needed to be acknowledged. (I also didn’t want him to think I was job-hunting!) He said not to worry about it, which made me feel better.

  49. AFT123*

    I just started a new job about 3 weeks ago, and I just found I’m pregnant… when should I tell them?

    2. Update Part Deux*

      I just landed a promotion and am trying to get pregnant. When I decide to have a baby is not determined by when it’s best for my employer ….

      Congrats!

    3. Total Rando*

      Congrats!!

      I have a pending promotion, and I just found out as well. Stuff like this happens. And luckily, I think most people surprise us with how great they are.

      Tell them when you’re comfortable. General consensus says 12 weeks. I may tell my work a bit sooner because I know how understanding they’ll be and I would like to plan very far in advance.

    4. Jerzy*

      I know SO MANY people this has happened to! Don’t sweat it. They’ll have you for a good 7-8 months at least before you go out on maternity leave. Wait until you’re comfortable, and are at least 12 weeks along.

      Also, congrats on the bun!

  50. whataweek*

    Have any Canadian AAMers recently taken the Government’s French language tests? I have to write the test this week (on short notice, with only 3 days to study!) and am feeling pretty nervous about it.

    Comprehension isn’t a problem for me (100% on practice tests), but grammar definitely is (average of 55% on practice tests). Any advice or resources for a crash course in French grammar?

    1. dancer*

      Sorry I can’t help, but I’d love to see other people’s suggestions. I’m very out of practice with my French.

    2. Anoners*

      Oh god. I did french immersion my whole life and still struggle with verbs, so I feel your pain. I think there’s a French Grammar for Dummies that might be helpful. There’s also a babel app that i’ve been using here and there that is okay but not fantastic. Do you know any french people that can help bring you up to speed? I find actually using my french with someone is way better than just reading about it. Bonne chance!

      1. whataweek*

        I took French immersion all through elementary and secondary but haven’t had to use French at all for the last 5-6 years. One of my friends is 100% bilingual and we’re scheduling a “French hangout” to help me get prepped for the oral test. I also booked two hours with a tutor for a crash course this weekend. I don’t know if it will be enough to save me, but I’m going to study like crazy.

        The testing is for a dream job, so the stakes feel very high. The job description said “intermediate French” not “French essential” so I was optimistic. It’s not actually with a Government department so I didn’t think I’d have to take the test!

        1. Jules the First*

          Let me plug verbe2verb (google it) for conjugations, and of course dig out your copy of Bescherelles. Brush up on your word order rules and write yourself some jingles to help with subject-object-verb agreements – you’ll feel like a dork, but really familiar kids songs are incredibly useful for remembering tricky patterns.

          And good luck!

        2. Anoners*

          Hrmm yeah, that sounds stressful! I took french for 12 years and I don’t think I’d pass as intermediate now. When I finished high school I was only intermediate +. I think you’re doing the right things though. You’ll probably start remembering a lot more once you spend a few hours with your friend/tutor. It’s surprising how much knowledge is just buried deep in your brain that comes back once you start using it again.

    3. katamia*

      Oh, good luck! I used to be fluent in French (in the sense that I could speak and write and be understood and listen and read and understand, not in the sense that I was 100% perfect–people could definitely tell I wasn’t a native speaker), but even at my best, I could never. spell. anything. in French. I’d always get praised for my writing skills (in English and French), but even though I’m a fantastic speller in English, I’d have to look up almost every word in French. So frustrating. Prepositions were also rough for me–I got a lot of the basic ones but, er, was never taught grammar in English and didn’t know what a preposition was then, so I’d often mix them up, especially when “dont” was involved. Haaaaaaaaaaaated that one.

      You could take a look at the FSI courses to see if any of that would help you. I’ll put the link in another comment.

  51. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

    Job applications that make you upload a resume and then manually enter all your work and education information are the bane of my existence.

    On the other hand, those that allow you to just answer cursory questions while uploading your resume and cover letter are my favorites.

    1. Ms. Anne Thrope*

      Preach! I did one the other day that took 2 hours! >:( And to top it all off they not only demanded current and previous pay, but salary requirement! Which since the job is in NYC and I’ m currently not, looks like a $25k pay bump when realistically it’s probably a slight pay cut when increased taxes and rent are considered.

      I’m assuming I”m not getting called. Such a *&^&%$# waste of time.

    2. Jubilance*

      I’ve been known to quit those applications – the job has to be REALLY appealing for me to go through all of that. I’m lucky to be in a position to be super choosy as to what I apply to…but still. No one should have to spend hours doing an online application.

    3. Xarcady*

      The last three I did were like that.

      I simply don’t see the point? Other than making applying for their job into an endurance contest for the applicants.

    4. mander*

      I have abandoned several job applications like this. If their application process is that onerous, what are other everyday administrative tasks going to be like?

  52. HR Recruiter*

    I received two resumes this week that stood out to me. One said on the bottom something like everything on this resume is verifiable. The other said I verify this resume is accurate and had a signature. Is this a new thing? In all my years recruiting I’ve never seen anything like this.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        But Alison do you not want to spent time watching them…just for curiosity? Are they applying to be actors?

          1. OwnedByTheCat*

            I got one too this week and responded with the same response and….nothing. Makes me so irritated.

            1. HR Recruiter*

              Your nicer than me. I’ve given up on responding when they don’t follow directions. I had one that responded to an ad asking them to email me their resume. He emailed me, “I’d like to schedule an interview.” I responded with please send me your resume or you can complete our online application (insert link)” He responded with “phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx.” I gave up after that.

      5. AVP*

        I’ve gotten them for video editors, which I guess could make sense except they were edited terribly, with clip art and rotating shadow graphics and bad cuts….made those decisions very easy!

    3. afiendishthingy*

      What the heck? Like if you hired someone, then found out they’d lied on their resume, but they never signed it to verify it was accurate, you wouldn’t be able to fire them?

    6. LQ*

      Ok the strange part of my brain wonders if this is some kind of an experiment (which I don’t think they can do like this but whatever I still think it!) where they send out resumes that say verified and resumes that don’t that are exactly alike to see if they get more responses from one or the other.

      Also I kind of wonder if this person signs everything they say as verifiable? Do they send joke emails and not put the verifiable note on them? (That sounds like something I would do except the opposite, send the joke with a note saying “Everything in this email is 100% verifiable at The Onion U.”)

    7. Ama*

      By any chance were the applicants coming out of academic research? That sounds like the wording on the signature page for a lot of grant applications.

      1. HR Recruiter*

        Nope. Both applied for entry level positions . Nothing remotely in common with the resumes. One was a typical formal resume except for the line on the bottom. The other was in a really bizarre format in general plus the line on the bottom.

  53. LinkedIn photos*

    Thoughts on pictures on LinkedIn profiles? I work in a fairly male dominated industry and have a gender neutral name. I was curious about the tradeoffs of not having a picture and looking out of touch with LinkedIn conventions and getting fewer views vs the potential risk of running across unconscious bias when someone knows my gender, in a similar way to that study that showed fewer interview requests when applicants had foreign names.

      1. Devil's Avocado*

        I know “list every job” is the commonly given advice, but I disagree with it. I love stalking people on LinkedIn to see their career progression (I find it interesting), but when I see someone with every job listed it seems immature or naive somehow? It makes me think they just don’t know how to edit/identify the important bits.

        I think it is because I only ever see every summer job and 6 month stint somewhere listed on the profiles of people within the first 10 or so years of their career. People with higher level positions almost always just list the highlights, and for whatever reason that comes across as more professional/self-aware to me. But that’s just one person’s opinion, of course.

        1. Chex Mix*

          I believe the idea is, that if John Q from Dream Corps saw that you applied, and when checking you on Linked in, saw that you also worked at McD’s in highschool – there is a connection and/or understanding there.

          John Q knows I can handle irate customers, a fast business pace, etc even though it’s not a job I would put on my resume. The argument is that LinkedIn is not a resume but is for fostering connections.

            1. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

              I can tell you as a hiring manager that anyone who’s worked in fast food or retail in their history gets an extra point towards the ‘yes’ pile if I’m hiring for anything customer service related or fast paced.

        2. CMT*

          I agree with you, but maybe it’s just me. Like, your internship from your freshman year of college wasn’t that important. Why are you trying to highlight it? But I’m probably being too cynical.

    2. Audiophile*

      I have no picture, I never have. One person told me I should put up a picture, because they weren’t sure who I was. Side note: they saw me pretty regularly since I sat at the front desk of a large company and would say hello to them in the morning. Just tell me “I don’t know who you are, because I’m not awake in the morning.” That would be more meaningful.

      I know a few people that I currently work with have pictures, they all seem to be taken at events or in professional settings. Almost like a headshot. Those are better. The people who include pictures of them doing activities or with pets and kids always stand out for the wrong reasons.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Unconscious bias is a real thing, but I’m not sure removing your photo from LinkedIn is the solution. Users with no photo look generic, almost spammy, in a sea full of profiles with photos. There are also many people who would want to know your gender/what you look like so that they can accurately describe you as “she/her,” or so they can recognize you when you walk in the door for an interview. If you truly don’t want your photo on LinkedIn, I don’t think it’s the world’s biggest deal; but I certainly don’t think you’d be doing yourself any favors.

      I also wouldn’t recommend someone with a foreign name change their name to something more “American” in order to get jobs. But I say that as someone with a very common (in the English-speaking world), gender-specific name who works in a fairly gender-balanced (at least in numbers) industry.

    4. BRR*

      There might be a bias (you would be able to answer that better than me) but even if a profile is completely filled out, I don’t like if they don’t have a picture. And yes I will acknowledge that rationally it shouldn’t matter as I would be weirded out if I got a resume with a picture.

  54. Bye Academia*

    Found out this week that I got an in-person interview for a job I really want, which means I am probably in their top 3-5 candidates. It’s the only job opening in this field in my area (and they don’t come around often), so if it doesn’t pan out I will have to look in another field. I have my fingers crossed!

    The only unfortunate part is that the interview won’t be for another month or two, and it may be several weeks after that before I find out whether I got the job. I have to keep reminding myself not to get too wrapped up in this job or it will drive me crazy.

    1. squids*

      Good luck! I was in a similar situation recently and it all worked out okay. You’ve got lots of time to really think about what you’d do in your first few months, first year, which will be excellent preparation for the interview. You can show up with ideas rather than just good responses to questions.

      1. Bye Academia*

        Thanks! That’s a great idea. I will try to channel my thinking about the job into a productive plan.

  55. Update Part Deux*

    So a little over a month ago I posted about scary changes in my department. Our most senior people left, all the senior roles were then transferred over night to another department, our director left, another director in our division who is rumored to not like our department created a team that looked eerily like ours… it was looking bad.

    I followed everyone’s advice here – which was to start looking for another job so that I had options if the worse should fall. I happily updated a couple of weeks ago that I landed a promotion and 48% raise to a different division and department in the company! I’m loving my new job!

    So this update is about my old department. That entire division just re-organized and the clone team’s director is now the division head. It’s not looking good for the old department at all!

    Thanks everyone for your advice!

    1. Audiophile*

      Ooof, glad you were promoted. I remember reading your posts and that’s just really strange on the company’s part to handle things that way.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Wow. Your instincts that some thing big was in the works were right on target. It’s wonderful to see someone pull themselves out of a bad spot and get their situation totally turned around.
      I am so happy for you.

  56. AnotherAnon*

    This week, out of the blue, I received some feedback about my performance from a higher-up about a situation with a senior person with whom I worked briefly. This senior person was not good about giving me expectations or feedback even when I asked for it, and at times seemed to expect me to do things that were out of line for the role I was in. I was polite and professional in all interactions with this senior person and did my best to make the relationship work; the project I was working on with this individual was designed to be short-term and has since ended, and now I am working with a different team. However, this higher-up received feedback from that senior person, is concerned about my performance, and has decided to refer me to coaching for further evaluation and work in specific areas. Based on reading AAM for years and internalizing the great advice here, I did my best to take this constructively and objectively, pleasantly thanked the higher-up for the feedback, told him sincerely that I was very interested in improving. I tried to diplomatically explain why the working situation with this senior person was challenging, but the higher-up was totally unreceptive to this and cut me off. This is the first time I have received this kind of feedback (or any serious negative critique at all – the feedback I usually get is that I am exceeding expectations in all my major areas of focus), so while I am not sure that it is valid, I am happy to take a closer look at my performance and work with coaches who can give me a more objective sense of how I’m doing. I just feel unsettled because this seems punitive and I worry this will affect my reputation in the organization, and discouraged that I didn’t feel heard in the conversation and was not given the chance to respond. Any advice from others who’ve been in similar situations? Anything I could have done differently?

    1. Lib Lady*

      I think you handled it maturely. Just keep putting your best foot forward – that’s the only part of this you can really control.

    2. Jules the First*

      Explaining that someone senior was difficult to work with was probably a mistake – better to say something like ‘yes, I found it challenging to work with him and could really use some help figuring out how to handle similar situations. Thanks for making some coaching available to me for this!’

      As you’ve described it, your response sounds a bit ‘yes but it was his fault’ and as a higher up who has just offered corrective feedback, that’s really not what I want to hear (especially if you’re getting coaching for it, which is usually a signal that the higher up values you)

    3. AnonAcademic*

      You said this came from “a higher up” – was it your boss or just someone above you? I would check in with your direct supervisor and get their take. Something like “Fergus suggested I get coaching in Area X because of feedback from Wakeem about my work on XYZ project. Can you give me a sense of where Fergus is coming from, because I was a bit surprised by his take? Is that an area where you also think I need improvement?” They may reassure you, or acknowledge that it actually IS a potential area for improvement, but either way it might be more reliable feedback.

    4. fposte*

      I can see that this would be upsetting! It sounds like you did a good job of focusing on your willingness to improve.

      I’m noting that you say you’ve never received any serious negative feedback, and I think that can make it a real shock when it happens. I would encourage you to consider that we all of us have weaknesses whether we’re told about them or not, and that the fact you haven’t had negative feedback before doesn’t mean it’s baseless. I also think it’s worth considering the coaching as something that could be really valuable–if this short-term assignment exposed a weakness that wouldn’t have come up in the normal course of your job duties, this means you could have a chance to improve in an area that otherwise you wouldn’t.

      I’m thinking about “being heard.” I’m not sure that’s always something to expect in when a boss is giving feedback, unless there’s an error of fact involved, and it’s really tough to distinguish that from defensiveness and pushback. Maybe a question to ask is “Is this about giving the boss necessary information, or is this about my feelings and my rep?”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “This senior person was not good about giving me expectations or feedback even when I asked for it, and at times seemed to expect me to do things that were out of line for the role I was in.”

      I would have hunted for a mentor in the moment. Find that friendly face and ask “What do I need to know about working with Senior Exec? What should I watch out for? What will he expect from me but never ask directly?”

      I had a situation where I had to unlock the front door to let CEO in each morning. I was warned, “Do not speak to CEO. He does not like to be spoken to first thing and he expects everyone to know that.” People tell you this stuff and it may have some merit. If you do not get the info from volunteers, then you may have to ask someone who looks like they would be sympathetic to your setting.

      (It has no bearing here, but I said “Good Morning” to the Dude in a loud, sun-shiny voice every day. Because I sometimes color outside the lines. And Dude was probably one of the most ethically/legally corrupt people that I have ever met in person. Before it was over, he was facing jail time. Which brings me to my next point. It really helps to know who is doing what at work and what their general reputation is. It could be that you just need a higher awareness of how some people roll.)

    6. AnotherAnon*

      Thank you all for your thoughtful feedback and insight! Those are all excellent points and have helped put the incident into perspective for me. I intend to follow through with the coaching with an open mind. I have several higher-ups to whom I report in my current role; I will definitely also follow up with those who have seen me do similar work and solicit feedback from them as well.

  57. waiting waiting waiting*

    It’s been more than 2 weeks since I got a verbal offer, and I’m told I can finally pick up the official offer letter this afternoon. Still keep thinking that something else will go wrong with it.

    This feels like an enormous red flag to me, but another person I know who works for this organization has said that they’re terrible at hiring, but decent with other aspects.

    It’s really screwed up my plans for giving extra notice at my current job. (Still a fair amount of time, but not what I planned on.)

    Anyone else been in limbo this long?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      Yes! I forget how long it was exactly, but several weeks while they were waiting on a background check to clear – I work with kids and the state Child & Family Services department takes FOREVER to clear people. It was several weeks between the verbal offer and the official offer, and I knew I didn’t have any sort of record, but I was sure that something would get screwed up somewhere, and for financial reasons I really didn’t want my start date to have to be pushed back a month to line up with their orientation dates. It was nerve wracking, but it turned out fine.

    2. waiting waiting waiting done*

      If anyone’s still reading this, I now have the letter in hand and everything is perfectly fine.

  58. Beth*

    Does any have any experience applying for NATO? I know applying for the US government is very different than a typical private-sector application and I’m looking for info on how NATO might work.

    1. Sandy*

      I do- is there anything in particular you want to know?

      They have crazy-long application periods, like the job is posted for two full months before they proceed with the process. It’s quite an involved application process- six or seven different sets of fields, but you can save as you go. Make sure you double-check what it “automatically” uploads from your CV- I had all sorts of fields out of whack that I had to manually fix.

      Worth noting that the process is generally LONG. Two months from posting the ad to closing the competition. Another month for them to sort through CVs. And another two or three weeks for a written test (English and French). Another month for a language test for a third lanauge if the job requires it. Another month to six weeks before you go to Brussels for two days more testing and in-person interview, etc etc etc.

      1. Beth*

        Thanks so much! For now I am wondering about the online application part, which I’m working on right now for a job that closes next week. I’m just worried that there is something I “need” to put in there – like for US gov jobs you NEED NEED to put in as many keywords from the KSAs that you can. I don’t know if there’s something similar for NATO. Also, the job “requires” at least level I English/French and level V in the other, but then “desires” “some knowledge of French” which seems contradictory to me. English is my first language so no problem there (and the operating language of the position), but my French is…very limited. So I’m worried about a language test if I get to that stage.

      2. Beth*

        Oh, and I’m not used to writing CVs, mine is in resume format. Is it that different, or do you think that’s a problem?

    2. 39281*

      I work for the UN, and I assume there are similar hiring practices. Things will take forever, and then at the end expect things to move very quickly – I’ve been rejected from jobs 1.5 years after I interviewed, and I’ve been hired after a 3 month interview process with 2 days notice to move to another country.

      The language exams are tough, and I’ve been turned down for jobs that I was the #1 candidate for because my French isn’t strong. So, study, study study. Google “Common European Framework” for example exams – for other UN-system organizations, that seems to be the style of language exam they use (I’m not sure for NATO exactly, but I expect it’s similar). I’ve been tested at the “B2” level for jobs where English fluency and French proficiency is required.

      Once you’re in, it can take knowing the right people in order to navigate the system and keep the contracts renewed. The bureaucracy can be a nightmare – it’s really useful to have someone who’s been there a while to explain who to talk to in HR, how contracts work, etc.

      Good luck! The hardest part is that first job, then it get easier to stay in the system.

      1. Beth*

        Thanks! I have looked into the language exams but hadn’t been able to find practice ones, which I would love. I’ll try the googling you suggested. I work for the DoD now and it’s the same here – getting that first job is so hard, but once you’re in, so much more opens up to you.

  59. Sarak*

    Tips for interviewing with people who will not be your coworkers/manager if you get the job? A lot of the tips on this blog focus on getting a feel for the job, which makes perfect sense, but it’s hard to do if you’re not talking to people who know any specifics about the job.

    Big Company Hiring Process involves a day-long set of interviews with 15-20 different people (in several different chunks, not all at once!) from all over the company. They write up their thoughts on the candidate and rate them on various things. That goes to a committee, who decide whether to make the offer.

    This feels more like college or grad school admissions than a job application process, but apparently it’s because it’s really easy to transfer to different areas in Big Company and they want to make sure all the teams are comfortable with one another’s hiring processes.

    Thoughts?

    1. Sascha*

      I would ask about the overall company culture, and also the culture and work within each department. I’d ask questions that are similar to what you’d ask specifically about the job, but broaden them to encompass the company at large. For example, if you’re asking what makes a person successful in that role, you could extend it to ask what makes a person successful at Big Company, etc.

  60. Total Rando*

    So, exciting personal news: I’m pregnant!!!
    But, complicated work question:
    I know I want to wait until I’m a bit farther along until I tell my manager, coworkers, etc. But, right now we are planning the budget for the next year of travel to conferences and trainings. I know that I can’t really schedule anything from August – December because of my pregnancy and maternity leave, but I don’t know how to address this with my supervisor. There are a couple conferences that fall in the no-fly window that I think she’d like for me to go to.

    Should I just make a budget for the conference(s) I’d want to go to as if I weren’t pregnant?
    Or Should I just plan for spring conferences only?

    1. Dawn*

      Hm. This is a tough one. However, I think if you feel comfortable doing so, it’d be best to discreetly pull your manager aside and say “Hey, I’m going to not be able to fly during this window, but please do not repeat this to anyone else in the company. I wanted to give you a heads up now that we’re scheduling yearly conferences.”

      That conversation taking place obviously has a lot to do with your comfort level in telling anyone and your trust that your manager won’t blab.

      1. Sascha*

        That is basically what I did – I told my manager pretty early on because I was missing work due to pregnancy-related sickness. I asked him to keep it confidential until I was ready to tell others, and it worked out pretty well that way.

        Congrats, Total Rando!

        1. Total Rando*

          My team is so small (like four of us total) that they would basically all know if I told one of them. Less because they would blab, and more because I’d have to tell my two managers, and at that point, I might as well tell my coworker who I share an office with (especially if smell aversion hits me hard, which I’m fearful of). But I just want to wait til I hit at LEAST the 10 week mark, probably the 12. (which is too many weeks away)

    2. anon for this*

      Congrats! If you’re not ready to tell anyone, just put in for the conferences as you would if you weren’t pregnant. Cross that bridge when you get there. (I’ve been pregnant multiple times and it hasn’t worked out, which I sincerely hope doesn’t happen to you. But if I had shared with my supervisor and then had to share the outcome, it would have made a crappy situation worse, plus I wouldn’t have gotten the approval to attend conferences that I was then able to go to.)

    3. Graciosa*

      Sorry, but this is going to be a tough question and I apologize for it, but are you past the first trimester (when most issues arise)? One reason most people wait to share the news is because of the possibility that the pregnancy may not continue as expected, so you should think about whether you want to have to share news of the loss of a pregnancy if you shared the good news early on.

      The next factor is what will happen to the budgeted funding if it is planned to support a trip you cannot attend. If the answer is simply that the money can be reallocated (either in time or to other members of the team or other priorities), then I wouldn’t worry as much about not sharing your news. If it cannot be reassigned (and I am aware of situations where that’s true), then it may weigh in favor of an earlier disclosure.

      The final factor is your supervisor’s managerial style and your comfort level with her. If you have a good relationship, I would be more inclined to share.

      I’m not sure that’s really an answer, but those are the things I would consider to reach a conclusion.

      And congratulations!

      1. Total Rando*

        Nope, I’m not past the first trimester, thus the hesitation. I’m actually not even past the first doctors visit, so it’s really early. (And I don’t think that’s a tough question – you’re totally okay for asking – i probably should’ve included that in the first place)

        I’m not 100% sure what can be done to the budget if I can’t go on a trip that is planned. My best guess is that it could be reassigned to another trip for me later in the year. But budget stuff is super weird with this company, especially travel, so I don’t know.

        I have two weeks until I have to submit my requests, but I’m still not sure I’ll be ready to share by then… Despite my awesome manager and coworkers.

        1. irritable vowel*

          I would not recommend putting your company’s budget considerations above your own comfort level with sharing before you’re ready. You’re not under any obligation to disclose something that is still surrounded by a fair amount of uncertainty. After all, an employee could very easily not be able to travel to a conference as planned because of an illness or other circumstance that they didn’t know about when they made the arrangements, and that would be completely acceptable and has probably happened before. Obviously, once you are further along in the pregnancy but well before the time of the conference, it would be good to give your boss that notice so she can try to reallocate the funding however it works out. But I think it’s fine to keep it to yourself for now.

          1. Ad Astra*

            I agree that your comfort should come before the company’s budget here, but I like the idea of giving your manager — and only your manager — a heads up, if you feel comfortable doing that. That would mean if you miscarried, you would have to tell your manager — but you wouldn’t have to announce it to the whole office, or field awkward questions from coworkers who hadn’t heard the bad news yet. If you don’t have that kind of relationship with your boss, though, I agree that keeping it to yourself for now would be fine. After all, your boss isn’t going to know exactly when you found out you’re pregnant. Oh, and congratulations!

            Tangent: It obviously makes sense not to tell a ton of acquaintances about a pregnancy in the early stages, but this “keep it a secret at all costs” thing is drilled into us so hard that I think women who do miscarry end up feeling very alone at a really tough time in their lives. They have almost no one to talk to because almost no one knew they were pregnant to begin with. I wish more women felt comfortable telling more people early on.

          2. Graciosa*

            I think I’m in basic agreement, but I have run into a caveat. We have certain training programs that are very hard to get into, planned a year in advance, and non-transferable. You get repeated notices that this Special Program is subject to all these restrictions, and everyone involved has to agree to the special rules in order to get someone into the training.

            In this case, I would want someone to tell me that they cannot (or may not be able to) attend before we all go out on this limb. I would be totally fine with not hearing the reason (“I have some concerns about my schedule at that time, so let’s not plan for anything in that window” would suffice), but I would be upset that we lost our slot in the Special Program because the employee kept quiet. We don’t get them back.

            I realize this is not normal – but that’s why I flagged it as a factor and something to think about.

        2. Lady Kelvin*

          I’m guessing you are only a couple of weeks along (4-5 maybe?) and so I’d say continue assuming you aren’t pregnant. Many people don’t even find out they are pregnant until they are 8 or more weeks along, so you have plausible deniability even if they make a big deal about you planning your travel schedule now. I wouldn’t worry too much about the company, you really need to think about yourself first and the company last and make plans based on what you are comfortable with and nothing else. Congrats on the pregnancy!

    4. Tara R.*

      Hm, if you do bring it up, could you just be blunt? “Boss, I’m not really ready for everyone to know this yet, but I’m expecting a baby and I wanted to let you know because it could impact my travel. But as I’m sure you know, nothing is really certain in the first trimester, so I would really prefer to wait to share and celebrate this news. Until then, can you just put this out of your mind except for as it affects work?”

  61. Supervision Needed*

    I am a project manager at an organization that has a flat organizational structure. We have small staff of 40, but only three staff have supervisory roles, and while all three have hiring power none of them have firing power (well without the consent of the CEO). I have been applying for other jobs, and most lateral moves want people who have supervisory experience. There is no opportunity to gain this experience with my current employer (it’s one of the many reasons I would like to leave, despite enjoying the work and my colleagues).

    The few places I’ve interviewed have been excited about my skills and experience, but have commented that my lack of supervisory experience is a stumbling block. So I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for how to overcome this. What I could emphasize that would make me a highly appealing candidate even though I lack this experience? While I would love for my next job to be a step-up career wise, at this point I would happily make a lateral move with good longer term prospects. However, I’m finding even for lateral positions that there is an expectation that I have supervised other staff. I’m not that keen about taking steps back in the hope I can work my way back up again. Any suggestions? Just keep my fingers crossed?

    1. MaryMary*

      I would emphasize the skills you have that are related to supervisory responsibilities. Most people managers do a lot of other things besides hiring and firing. If you’re a project manager, I would guess you assign work to others, monitor their progress, and reassign or reallocate work as needed. Do you do any coaching, mentoring, or training? Do you provide feedback to someone when they’re not performing as you expect? Have you ever helped a coworker develop skills for a new role?

      1. Supervision Needed*

        I do most of the things that you have described. However, I probably need to do a better job about emphasizing the coaching and mentoring that i have done in the past. I also work with hundreds of volunteers, and I have had my fair share of conversations addressing performance issues which isn’t a pleasant task when you are addressing issues with someone who is working for free and/or a small stipend. Thanks for the feedback.

    2. Lady Kelvin*

      Can you use informal supervisory experience to show that you are capable of managing people? For example, you could give details on project you lead with a team and how you managed to divvy up responsibilities, ensured that objective were met on time, etc or dealt with internal conflicts. I feel like a lot of what people are looking for when they want supervisory experience they want someone who is comfortable telling people what to do (in terms of work loads and prioritizing projects) and dealing with uncomfortable situations like conflicts. If you don’t have any of that experience in your job, perhaps you could look for it with a volunteer group or something?

      1. Supervision Needed*

        I have a lot of that type of experience. Unfortunately, many employer want to know that you hiring and firing capabilities.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If you could recommend someone be fired but needed final approval I would mention that you could take the initial steps, but had to get final approval. I think the question is more about can you do it if you need to. Maybe.

        2. non-profit manager*

          Are you sure they actually want to know if you had hiring/firing capabilities? I wonder if that is proxy for the more common supervisory activities such as assigning work, following up with employees, providing feedback, coaching, mentoring, assisting with disputes, and the like. If you are hiring doing all the other supervisory tasks well, hopefully you don’t need to fire. ;) Have you sat in on interviews? Been part of a hiring committee, even if not the hiring manager? Honestly, I think that is all more important than whether you’ve fired anyone. I, in fact, have never fired someone, and I hope I never have to.

  62. Jules*

    What do you wish your interviewer told you about an entry level position that requires a lot of detail work, writing and fact finding? We are looking for someone with data analytics savvy but 40% of the role is dealing with nitty gritty details. Not whizzing through Excel spreadsheets. We need someone analytical but also able to deal with the daily grind. What question should I ask so I can tell that you’d be able to deal with it?

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Anon for this*

      What sort of level is this position? If it’s entry level I’d probably ask for a skills test. However, if it’s more senior then I would be asking for them to explain if there was a time they had missed a small detail that had larger ramifications. Because generally people who whiz through things don’t see what the big deal is of a small detail being missed. Versus someone who is more detail oriented can tell you the ramifications of a mistake and what procedures were put in place to avoid it going forward.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      It sounds like your description here is good, but I might add that the person in this position is accountable for the accuracy of the final product. Being “accountable” drives home the point that you really, really need someone detail oriented.

      1. Elsajeni*

        When I applied for my current job, one of the interview questions was along the lines of: “Tell me about a situation in a previous job where your work had to be absolutely accurate. What did you do to make that happen?” (I talked about my process for entering grades into the online gradebook when I was a student teacher.) If detail-level accuracy is the concern, that might be a good question.

    3. KW10*

      Make sure you give them a very clear picture is what it involves, like what they might be doing on a typical day/week, and don’t skim over the nitty gritty stuff. Ask how they feel about a job that’s 40% those tasks. I helped hire once and when we asked how they felt that it was a primarily admin role, one person said basically she’s ok with admin for a while but would want to start moving on to other tasks – essentially confirming our fear that she’d be bored with the job and want to leave quickly. (She was not hired!) The person who was hired said she doesn’t mind it’s admin because she’s so interested in what we do and really wants to get a foot in the door in the industry.

      Also you could ask about their experience doing similar nitty gritty tasks in the past.

    5. INFJ*

      A less direct way is to ask what the person’s favorite (or least favorite) part of their current position is. I’m not sure what you mean when you say “able to deal with the daily grind”, but if you mean repetitive tasks, you can tell if the candidate isn’t up for it if they say something like, “I love how every day in my current position I do something different!”

  63. SMT*

    Had another career discussion with HR this week, where I was recommended to admit to my management that I’m looking to leave our division. I’ve been considered for promotions, and for the Leadership Development course, so I’m not sure how well that’s going to go, since I was just transferred to a new team to help me take those ‘next steps’ in my career. The HR person I spoke to said it could help as far as them giving me projects that better suit my interests (allowing me to add some things to my resume), but I’m not sure if I should ruin my opportunity for development/more money while I’m stuck in this division (I found another rejection email as I waited for this appointment yesterday).

  64. Naji*

    I am applying for an early career attorney position at the International Paralympic Committee (IPC), which is located in Germany (the Paralympics are basically the Olympics for athletes with physical impediments). As part of the application packet, applicants need to list their salary expectation in euros. Does anyone know what a reasonable salary for this type of position would be or where I could research this? I’m having trouble finding anything. Alternatively, I live in the US, so I’d be interested in knowing what a reasonable salary for an early career attorney in Germany is in general. It would be helpful if you could differentiate between the public and private sector. Thanks for your help.

  65. 12345678910112 do do do*

    I have a particular set of skills… that could really make my dad’s business (electrician) flow better and cut down on his administrative/repetitive tasks, billing, record-keeping, etc. Basically making a database for customer management and billing and creating a small website with a contact form. However, it’s a very small business and he wouldn’t be able to pay me very much if at all. What do you think? Do I let him keep on as he’s been doing for 20+ years without my help? Do I work for him half as a favor and half for a pittance? Is this just a big bad idea?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Could you barter? Your database form for nifty can lights in the kitchen?
      But I’d make sure the could handle this kind of change. I know many shops that have tried to go electronic and the employees/management just can’t handle it and they go back to paper.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Family dynamic.

      Is he even interested in this? Who will use the system once it is set up? Who will maintain the system once it is set up? Is this something he wants? (yes, I asked that question twice, it’s super important.)

      He has to want it. He has to work with the system and not ignore it.

      How easily do conversations with your dad turn to disagreement? If you think about 50% of the time then let it go. Don’t do this.
      When does he plan on retiring? If he has another few years, I’d say forget it. Let it go.

  66. SaraV*

    Eeeep.

    So in early December, the person I job-shared with at PT Job #1 retired. We’ve hired on another person, but now I’m the one with seniority, the point person. It isn’t supervisory-like responsibility, but it’s enough to be a bit sobering.

    Then, due to a firing this week at PT Job #2, I’ve been suddenly flung into a lot of things that I’ve never really done (but can do) beyond my normal job duties. All because I can get weekdays off from PT Job #1, whereas others who might be a bit more qualified have regular 8-5 jobs.

    So the next two months are going to be a bit…stressful? Exciting?

    So yeah. Eep.

  67. irritable vowel*

    Suggestions for politely telling an aggressive sales rep to please not contact me any more? (We’re just not ever going to pay for their service, but it’s above my pay grade to say so directly.)

    1. Lillian McGee*

      I usually tell them something like continuing to follow up with me would only waste their time and I would just hate to be the cause of that. Or just go cold.

    2. Total Rando*

      You could say that you’re not the one who is able to make purchasing decisions and that you prefer to not be contacted for sales. Do you think that would work? (and can you say that with your pay grade?)

      1. irritable vowel*

        Hmm, the problem is that this guy isn’t pushing me to make a purchasing decision, he just keeps contacting me every week about coming in to my office with their CEO for a meeting (it’s a small startup). His predecessor has already met with my boss’s boss, who passed along the brochures and whatnot about the service, and I’ve told this guy that I have all that info and will contact him if I have any questions. But he can’t take a hint. I just want to tell him, I have no interest in meeting your CEO and your product is little more than vaporware at this point! In my personal life I strive not to let other people’s rudeness make me feel like the one who is being rude, but it’s a little trickier in a professional context when I have to be, um, professional. :/

        You make a good suggestion about telling him I’m not the one who should be contacted for sales. Unfortunately the way our organization works (I’m an academic librarian) is that sales reps expect to make initial contact with the person who specializes in the subject area of their product. And that’s me. I think I may need to just stop responding to him…

        1. West Coast Reader*

          I’ve read advice on this that says it’s perfectly acceptable to say simply “We’re not interested. Please do not call again.” and hang up. It’s not unprofessional to shut down someone when they have crossed your boundaries.

        2. Beezus*

          Stop responding.

          If you happen to pick up the phone by accident when he calls, just let him know that his company’s information is in your prospective vendor file, and you’ll review it if you’re ever in the market for their product, and to please stop calling in the meantime.

          My “prospective vendor file” is the trash can.

    3. irritable vowel*

      Thanks, all! I ended up e-mailing back: “We’ll definitely get back in touch with you when we need updated information about [product], but at this point I don’t think we are able to pursue it further.” I would have liked to be more direct, but this at least gives the impression, if in the unlikely event it’s forwarded to my boss’s boss, that I’m not the final authority on decisions to purchase.

      (A couple of you mentioned phone calls–this has all been via e-mail. I don’t even answer my phone if I don’t recognize the number! This guy definitely calls too, and is a perpetrator of one of my biggest peeves: leave long voice mail and then say at the end, well, “I’ll put all this in an e-mail, too.” The disadvantage of e-mail is that it’s a little harder to be firm/direct because tone can be lost, and also there’s the risk of your words getting preserved or forwarded beyond your control…)

    4. BRR*

      I tell them we aren’t interested and if anything changes we will contact them. That I don’t want them to waste their time by continuing to reach out to me.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “I don’t make those decisions. If TPTB decide to go with your company then they will call you. Please stop calling me.”

    6. mander*

      “I have spoken with the person who makes the buying decisions, and they are not interested in your product at this time. Please do not contact me again. If the situation changes, we will contact you”.

      I hate aggressive sales people. I ended up having to report a company for incorrect use of personal details (a breach of the Data Protection Act, basically) after they would not stop calling me over and over, even though I had repeatedly told them that I was so put off by their astronomical quote and the rudeness of the person who came out to assess the situation that I would never use their company for anything, ever. Granted this was something for my own house, not a business vendor, but it really pissed me off.

  68. lindsay*

    I recently interviewed for a job and am waiting for them to make a decision. They said they would notify me whether I am selected or not. However, while waiting, I received an automated/do not reply email from their HR department thanking me for my application to a different position than the one I interviewed for and saying that my resume was being reviewed. I’m not sure if it was sent by mistake or if they forwarded my resume to a different department for consideration. I want to send a 2nd follow up email, but I’m not sure if I should mention the automated email. How do I proceed?

    1. fposte*

      I think there’s no reason to send a 2nd followup unless you do mention the automated email. “Hi, I just wanted to make sure I was in the system correctly–I got an email that stated I was being considered for Grand Teapot Poobah and not the Teapot Dancer position. I know usually this is just a glitch, but I did want to check. Thanks!”

  69. CryloRen*

    No real questions, just venting. I’ve been on the job search for 3 weeks now and man…job hunting is just not my favorite.

    In three days I interviewed with a company and they extended me a written offer! Yay right? But then the offer got retracted on the day I was going to give notice because the company suddenly went through a restructuring and they had to do a hiring freeze. :(

    I also had a phone interview with a different firm where the hiring manager barely let me speak. She spent 45 minutes going on about how terrific her tiny company is, how I would love it because the people on my immediate team are suuuuuuper healthy and did you know that such-and-such runs half marathons and such-and-such is a certified yoga instructor, isn’t that cool! Oh by the way, your team actually has no background or knowledge of the thing that they’re hiring you for, but it’s OK because they graduated from STANFORD donchaknow!

    The final straw was when she asked, “What was your final GPA? You see, we only hire INTELLECTUAL people.”

    (internally screaming)

    They actually wanted to bring me in for in-person interviews, but after the phone screen shenanigans I would not work for that company under any circumstances. I left a very apologetic message for the hiring manager to decline and she sent me back an email stating that she was “MAJOR LEAGUE disappointed!” and tried to guilt me into coming in anyway because she “had to reschedule another qualified candidate to accommodate you”. I consider it a bullet dodged, but still. Major league UGH.

    2. Ama*

      Holy cow. I bet the reason the team has no background in what they need you for is because the people who actually had qualifications ran away as quickly as they could.

  70. Jade*

    I know you’re not supposed to trash your former employers in job interviews, but I have a problem.

    Two jobs ago, I did something I would never normally do- I walked off the job. I work in mental health care, and one of the residents I took care of attacked and injured me. In the days and weeks leading up to this I had been attacked as well- sometimes injured, sometimes not. My coworkers had also received injuries. I felt our safety was handled poorly, and that if I stayed any longer I would be hurt worse, so I left. Now, I had accepted an offer at a new job (my current job) right before this, so I didn’t have to explain any of this to them, but I’m looking for an additional job now and I know that prospective employers might ask why I quit after only a few months (and if HR tells them, why I walked off the job). In order to properly explain myself, it’s going to involve talking about the procedural failures of the place I used to work at that lead to residents injuring us, such as the lax safety protocols, the abusive treatment of the residents, etc. How do I frame this explanation in a way that allows me to tell my story without making me look like I’m out to trash my previous employer?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Could you just mention the part about being assaulted by a resident? I think that’s enough reason not to feel safe, without mentioning the failures of your organization to protect you.

      1. Jade*

        The problem is that I’m applying to other jobs in the mental health field, and sometimes attacks on staff occur (although they shouldn’t happen at the frequency I experienced at this job). I’m worried a potential employer will look at think I just can’t hack that kind of work, when I feel the problem was the environment I was in, not myself. I need a way to convey that, so that’s gonna involve saying bad things about the environment there.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          “While I understand this sort of thing happens in this field, it was happening at an alarming frequency and there was not much support in place to prevent it from happening.”

      2. NotherName*

        And practice saying it as neutrally as possible, with all relevant information at the ready. (There will be follow-up questions.) I think this is a very, very valid reason to leave a job, but you want to seem level-headed and like someone who can handle a crisis. Good luck!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’m not in hiring, but if anyone said they were attached at work, then I wouldn’t care if it was by and employee, stranger, or customer. Running is a reasonable, human response when in danger.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        In this field, though, it’s part of the job. I have been bitten, scratched, punched (broke my nose once), kicked by clients. if an applicant told me that they walked off a job because they were attacked by a client/patient, and gave no more details, I wouldn’t hire them. However, if they explained that appropriate measures were not being taken – whether it was inadequate training, being understaffed, whatever and that it didn’t seem like their concerns were being taken seriously, that would make a difference to me. Especially if they also could say something positive about the employer/job, like a particular coworker or client who taught them a lot, or specific skills they learned. Just don’t sound bitter or defensive about the situation, don’t go into a lot of nitty gritty about specific managers committing specific wrongs. It’s an understandable reason to leave a job.

        1. Jade*

          Oh yeah. I’ve worked at other places before where clients got aggressive, but it happened much less frequently, and when it happened, it was handled well. This place, I mean, there was inadequate training, calls for backup would go unanswered, clients would have violent meltdowns from harsh tactics like seclusion but then we were supposed to restrain them in the least restrictive ways, and there was clearly a need for more staff than the minimum ratio.

          Honestly even if an interviewer doesn’t bring it up, I’d want to address this issue anyway to make sure I’m not walking into the same kind of environment.

          1. Afiendishthingy*

            Absolutely- ask how often they use seclusion and restraints, staffing ratios, etc. Very important stuff to know.

    4. LizB*

      I recently left a mental health job for very similar reasons, and my line when interviewing was, “Unfortunately there were some serious safety issues in the program, and they didn’t have the right protocols in place to prevent injuries, so I didn’t feel comfortable continuing to work there.” Just keep it broad and neutral/unemotional, and don’t give any gory details. If the place you’re interviewing for wants to know more, they’ll ask, and you can give basic details (I was injured by a resident and there was no follow-up from management, they didn’t maintain the proper staffing ratios, staff weren’t trained properly which led to myself and others being injured on the job and management wouldn’t make any improvements or changes to help prevent incidents, etc.).

        1. LizB*

          You’re not alone! I wonder if we worked at the same place, actually, based on your comment… you’re not in MN, are you?

          1. Jade*

            Nope. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of stories like ours floating around the internet. Makes you wonder.

            1. LizB*

              :( It’s sad that there are so many places out there without good procedures to keep staff and clients safe.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              I think this is happening in every state. Am trying to avoid a soapbox here…

              OP, I would suggest to you that others in the field already know what your old employer is doing. Don’t feel like you need to explain that much. Keep it simple like the example above. In your case, it will be what you don’t say that wins you the job.

    5. LQ*

      Practice. Find a very good friend who you can say this line to who can ask a follow up question or two to surprise you. It will make such a difference if you can say it unemotionally. It sounds like others have given good phrasing suggestions. I really think the biggest thing is to be able to say it without getting anything about it. So having someone basically poke your bruise until you’re confident that you don’t sound angry, upset, hurt, depressed, basically try to wipe the emotion from the bruise poking.

      This is so important because you need to be ready to be right on top of “here’s why I’m excited about this position” or whatever the next part is.

    6. BRR*

      There were lax protocols in regards to employee safety.

      Protocols for employee safety were not up to industry standard/were far below industry standard.

  71. I'm Not Phyllis*

    I left a job last year that I was EXTREMELY unhappy in … fortunately, I found a position that seems to be a perfect fit for me. My old company has a lot of jobs open (very high turnover) and I’m frequently asked about my experiences there. The first two years were great – wouldn’t change a thing, but the last six months that I was there were so awful (new leadership) that I struggle to remain positive or professional while discussing it. I don’t want to lie to people who are asking about a potential employer by saying that it’s a great place to work when I don’t feel that way (from what I understand, the issues that made me decide to leave have gotten worse instead of better) but I also don’t want to bad-mouth a previous employer because I can’t imagine a scenario where that would reflect positively on me. Any advice?

    1. Dawn*

      Hm… maybe phrase it as “I really enjoyed my early time there. There was a leadership change about 6 months before I left so I’m not sure what it’s like now that there’s different leadership, so if I were you I’d be diligent in asking questions to see if it’d be a good fit for you.” All truthful but doesn’t get into why you left- I also think it does a good job of subtly saying “Things have changed since I have been there so please don’t rely on me to tell you it’s great.”

      1. Mythea*

        I really like that answer! Its very similar to how I answer questions about an organization I left right as new leadership drove it into a wall.

    2. Ad Astra*

      It depends a lot on who you’re talking to. If it’s someone you know quite well, you ought to give them your unedited opinion. If it’s a casual or strictly professional acquaintance, I like to say things like “Well, it had its moments.” Remember that people with different personalities, job functions, and expectations might have a better time at this company than you did. If there are some specific issues you want to warn them about, tell them to really pay attention to those things in the interview. And, if they ask about something specific, like “What did you think of the new leadership?” then you may as well tell them the truth.

  72. Not Gloria A.A., B.S.*

    I had an interview on Monday. It went… OK The job sounds a lot like what I do now, which I find to be mindlessly boring and don’t want to keep doing. I mean if it were a ton more money and insane benefits, then I might consider it. But it’s not a big bump in pay and I have no idea what the benefits would be. And it would be a slightly longer commute. Plus they didn’t seem all that interested in me. I asked questions but basically they just reiterated what they had already said and didn’t answer the question at all. I don’t need people to be Mort talking about how much he loves King Julien, but try to sell me on the company or job a little, jeez.

  73. A.J.*

    I would greatly appreciate some advice on what to include on my resume. I’ve been working a lot of short term contract jobs recently and I know it does my resume no favors. I try to emphasize on my resume that they were for specific short term periods, but I still fear that I look like a job hopper.

    I recently started a 6 month contract position, but it is an absolute nightmare. I am planning to leave as soon as possible, but I habe only been there 2 months. I have a potential lead on a great job from an ex-colleague of mine, and I have been asked to submit a resume. Should I include the contract position where I have been for 2 months? I am hesitant to include it because it is not in my field and is not relevant to the job I am applying for, and I really hate the work. I fear that they will ask me about it in future interviews. On the other hand, if I remove it then i t looks like I’ve been unemployed for a very long time.

    1. Chex Mix*

      If I saw a resume with no work for 3 years (so long as some reasons were in the cover letter) it would not bother me.

      But a resume with a 2.8 year gap, then a 2 month stint? I’d be pretty concerned you are a job hopper.

    2. fposte*

      I’m not clear what your history is–can you clarify? You say without this job it looks like you’ve been unemployed for years, but that you’ve been working contract jobs recently. Is the job you’re looking at contract or long-term?

  74. Amber Rose*

    Husband’s boss wants to get him a farewell gift, as he’s given notice. She’s asked what he wants. Cue baffled shrugs. This has never come up before for either of us.

    He was thinking maybe suggesting a watch? If your boss asked you what you want as a farewell, what would you say?

    I continue to be irrationally terrified of my one year review next week. How do you not stress about annual reviews? I don’t really get feedback (except from coworkers, in the vein of “your lecture on office cleanliness was terrifying. Good job!” I guess i’m scary when i’m annoyed) so I can only assume I’ve been doing ok. But I’m still nervous.

    1. Meg Murry*

      What about “no gift is necessary, but I’d appreciate knowing I would have a positive recommendation from you in the future” or something like that?

    2. Lillian McGee*

      Honestly, I would enjoy a nice send-off gathering with pizza & beer & merriment rather than a trinket.

      But if she insists, there are some really cool watches on Etsy made from wood and those make really cool unique gifts.

    3. irritable vowel*

      How about a donation to charity? Something that your husband knows the boss would be non-offended by? It’s win-win-win — the charity gets a donation, the boss gets to feel good, and your husband gets an image bump through looking selfless. :)

    4. alter_ego*

      I’m the same way when it comes to annual reviews! I was nauseous the whole week leading up to mine. We do anonymous peer reviews in the weeks leading up to the annual review (so pick 5 of your coworkers, and, in a form, put between 1 and 3 things they do well, and between 1 and 3 things they can improve on). Each person’s results get compiled and given to them, along with a page of 33 metrics that you’re ranked on by your manager. So you’re getting feedback from a few different sources, which is always really scary.

      In my review this year, I got exceeds expectations on 30 of the 33 metrics we’re ranked on, and they told me that my peer reviews were the most overwhelmingly positive of anyone in the company. They also gave me an unasked for 13.5% raise. So. Clearly no reason to be nervous.

      When I mentioned that all this positive feedback was awesome, because I was so so nervous coming into the review, my boss mentioned that I wasn’t the first person to say that, and he couldn’t figure out why. I wanted to shout “Maybe you should start giving us feedback all year long, instead of one 20 minute meeting a year!”

      1. Amber Rose*

        Ha! No kidding, that sounds crazy nerve wrecking.

        I’m not anticipating a raise since we’re oil and gas, but I have had a couple rough patches so I’m worried it’ll be a “you suck” review.

        1. Miles*

          I believe you can have them either way, and that they are just more likely to come with strings if he quit rather than being let go.

  75. Skype interview*

    I am having a Skype interview with a search firm next week. I am doing it from home, and I use Skype but sometimes the connection is not the best – any tips? I could do it from my work office but it would probably be pretty obvious that I am interviewing so that does not seem ideal. I had a very long phone conversation with the search firm and it went well, and I made it to the next level, which is great. I guess when I’ve interviewed people over Skype, my committees have been understanding of technical difficulties so hopefully that is good.

    1. just laura*

      I’d look into a coworking space where you can reserve a room/booth. Other options might be a private room at a public library or something like that. Definitely do some test runs with a friend or two and make sure it works with 100% reliability at home!

  76. TinyPjM*

    A bit of good news! I was laid off in September, and after 10+ interviews and a stressful holiday period…I have accepted an offer and I start on Monday! I actually received multiple offers, and I credit that to all of the advice provided here both by Alison and this wonderful community.

    If you are looking, please know there is light at the end of the tunnel! I believe in you!

  77. Meg Murry*

    Followup to the “will people will judge you for your messy office” post:

    Anyone here with ADHD have any tips on keeping your desk/office/cubical from constantly looking like a bomb exploded but still getting work done? And staying on task in general?

    I have a terrible “out of sight, out of mind” habit, so I tend not to put things in my desk drawers until a project (or piece of a project) is absolutely finished. I’m trying to get over that, but what else can I do? Even if I do put things away, I just wind up getting them back out and my desk is a paper factory again by lunch.

    And unfortunately just going paperless isn’t the answer – for reasons I can’t get into, we have to keep lots of the “original” sheets of paper – scans or photocopies aren’t good enough. And I generate a LOT of paper a day.

    Any other ADHD tips, besides avoiding this site and Pomodoro technique? And meds, which do help (when I remember to take them ….)

    1. Lillian McGee*

      I keep an extremely tidy desk even though I also suffer from “out of sight, out of mind” syndrome. For things that I cannot put away, I have a three-shelf slidey wire mesh paper organizer thing (no idea what this thing is actually called..). The top basket is for to-do things that are urgent, the middle is for things for my boss that I am working on or that I need to bring to her at some point, and the bottom is for long term/other projects or things that I need to refer to often.
      I also have a clear plastic desk cover that I keep my calendars and extension list under.
      There’s another basket at the end of my desk called “to be filed.” When I have to leave things lying out, I mentally divide my desk into “zones” where certain things go while they are waiting for me to make a decision.

    2. Mythea*

      I can be super messy too – what has worked for me is the multi layer wire holders and lots of file folders that are colored. If I know something will be in a certain color and can see the color on my desk, I will work on it. If I end up with multiple things in the same colors I forget things or move on from them :(

    3. Ad Astra*

      I’m the same way about “out of sight, out of mind.” Some things that help me:

      1. I keep my to-do list on a sticky note right by my keyboard, so that helps me remember to do stuff that might not be physically sitting on my desk at the moment.
      2. I set aside time at the end of each day to clear off my desk.
      3. I throw stuff away as soon as it’s no longer needed. This can either happen during my nightly clean-up or in the middle of the day, if that’s when I realize I don’t need it anymore.
      4. Anything I do need to keep gets filed away in an appropriately labeled folder. If there’s not already an appropriate location for that paper, I create one. I don’t want to get into the habit of stuffing things in a drawer because I have nowhere else to put them.

    4. katamia*

      I send myself a lot of reminder emails. Maybe you could file whatever it is and set up some reminder emails that include the location of where you filed it in the email.

  78. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Question for you all.

    I’ve been conducting some first round interviews to fill a couple slots on my team. It’s for a kind of unusual position, with a higher than normal fail rate and a polarized “I love this job!”/”I hate this job!” feeling from people who do (attempt to do) the actual job. Many more people hate the job or fail than love it and succeed, but those who do love it, LOVE it and are good at it.

    With all that, we’ve set these slots up to be temp to perm, to give all parties a chance to preview in action before anybody commits.

    So, I’m doing first (only) round temp to perm interviews of people sent to me by agencies. Open to non-traditional candidates, open to people returning to the work force, etc., getting a huge variety of resumes, from which we decide whom to interview. Some of the candidates we’ve interviewed have been kinda desperate to get the job or get any job or get a foot in the door. Which, is bringing me to me question.

    Question:
    I know during the interview whether we’re going to ask the agency to bring this person on with us or not. I usually know by the middle but I definitely know by the end. Because we’re working with agencies , I don’t *have* to deliver any bad news, but, I’ve been doing what I think is the right thing and telling the candidate at the end if this isn’t a good fit for them. It’s generally surprising to them because I conduct a very friendly interview and I know that they are thinking “I’m making a connection here!”. We talk, we laugh, we get to know each other and that’s all about judging the fit for the position.

    Right or wrong approach? It sucks for me. I don’t want to do it. I’m doing it because I think it’s the right thing to do. I had near tears twice last week from two candidates..barely made it out the front door without crying. I’m gentle, I’m kind. It’s all about a match to the job and not a valuation of the candidate’s worth as a person but , is this the wrong approach? Should I let them walk out the door thinking they just had a great interview and are going to start this job, only to have the agency call them the next day and burst their bubble?

    What do you think? Is it actually kinder to let them walk out the door feeling good and then get the bad news later on, over the phone, from Not Me?

    1. MaryMary*

      Personally, I’d prefer to know during the interview if I’m not a good fit. Especially because you’re delivering the news kindly and it’s a judgement on the fit for the job, not a personal criticism. That said, I wouldn’t blame you if you let the agency deliver the news. I’m guessing they would do it over the phone, and if the candidate has an emotional reaction, it’s easier to mask it if you’re not face to face.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Wow, that’s a tough call. I’ve told people in a phone screen they weren’t the right fit, but that was usually obvious from the conversation. I think it might actually be kinder to let the agency do it. Then it is less personal (and it’s always going to feel personal) — maybe it’s just that other people were BETTER fits, not that they themselves are a bad fit. You know?

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        This is what I am starting to think, which is why I wanted to get a bunch of opinions here. I don’t really care about what’s easier for me, but if what’s easier for me matches a better choice, that wouldn’t hurt.

        1. Meg Murry*

          Although depending on how the agency does it, you might want to keep doing it yourself. I’ve had agencies give me really terrible rejections – or even worse, not ever actually reject me at all, just left me hanging in a state of “maybe”.

          Maybe for the “no way, no how, why did the agency even send me this person” you could let them do it, but if your message is either “this position isn’t a good fit for you but I could see you working out here in a different position so apply again if we have another opening” or “this position doesn’t seem to be a good fit for you right now but maybe after you have 2-5 more years experience/finish school/would be able to work the hours we need [if someone said that they absolutely had to leave by 3 pm or couldn’t work more than 30 hours a week, for instance] you should contact us again” – you might want to deliver those messages yourself.

          I also think if there is an obvious dealbreaker it would be kind to give the person that news directly (we need someone who is extremely comfortable using new software and you don’t seem that computer literate, we need someone with excellent written communication and you have admitted that is a weak sport for you, etc) because chances are the agency won’t give them that reason, but if it’s just kind of one of those “ehhh, the fit just feels off” you might want to let the agency deliver the news.

          Although you may want to talk to your HR and see if they have anything in particular to say about it – after all, you don’t want to appear to be dismissing people after you met them for vague reasons, because it could come off as being dismissed because of age/gender/race/another protected class.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

            Yeah, that’s the reason I started on the route with this job. I knew the agency would never explain a why to the people.

            This is a WEIRD job. We start off the interview explaining the job and the challenges. We include the high fail rate and how most people who try the job hate it. And why they hate it. Then we talk about how some people love it, what they love about it, etc.

            My impulse here is good. I’m trying to protect non-traditional, returning to the workforce, unemployed for a bit of time candidates (most of the pool, economy is improving), I’m trying to protect them from having that “OH MY GOD I AM NEVER GOING TO GET A JOB WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME” moment, by explaining how this weird job doesn’t match up with them because of X reason.

            The general feedback to my question here is matching up with my fear, though, that that benefit is outweighed by the potential of embarrassing people who react emotionally to the disappointment.

            1. Meg Murry*

              Could you email that feedback to the recruiter and ask the recruiter to forward your message? Or could you email the candidates yourself and CC the recruiter?

              The other piece of this that I’ve seen work is to basically get the person to self select themselves out. So you pointedly ask “So after hearing all this, and that we need a person that can do A, B, C and D, do you still feel this would be a good fit for you?” (where D is something the person has just admitting to sucking at or being the reason they left a previous job) Sometimes the candidate will say “no, actually, I don’t think this will work” right in the interview, or tell the recruiter “nevermind, I don’t think I can do that position”. Or if they don’t, when they get the call from the recruiter that says “Wakeen’s is going in a different direction” at least the person will think in their head “that’s alright, I never would have accepted that job anyway because I hate D”

              Occasionally this will still backfire for the most desperate (they shift into “I can’t even get a job doing D, I suck!”) but I think it’s a good approach if done well.

              1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

                I have tried the self select out and it’s not working with this candidate pool. The temp job pays $18 an hour which isn’t a ton of money in our area but just enough that if you have no job, it sounds like a good chance to catch up some bills, even if you only last a few weeks.

                The secret hidden surprise is that it’s a pathway position, with lots of additional opportunity for someone who is successful but I don’t even mention that anymore because that only adds to people’s disappointment.

                IDK, I could scrap the whole non-traditional candidate thing. I had great luck out of the gate. Terrific hire (well will be perm shortly) woman who was 12 years out of the workforce and is doing fabulously. And loves the job.

                I had two temps after that who didn’t make it, and a couple of interviews a week otherwise whom we haven’t chosen to start.

                Specific feedback to the agency per candidate, realistically, I’m not going to do that. My schedule is jam packed. As soon as I’m out of the interview, I’m onto the next thing. I write HR a brief email and HR communicates with the agency.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Are there themes to who you’re realizing mid-interview won’t work out? If so, I wonder if you could talk about those with the agency and have them do more of the screening before they send people to you.

                2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

                  Reply to Alison:

                  I think we’ve put all of the themes out to the agencies. (I have three of them working on this!). I just kind of throw my hands up and go through the resumes now, which, are all over the place.

                  This is such a weird job. The successful candidate is bright, inquisitive, gets off on learning new things, and has a high high tolerance for pushing through packs of tedium to get projects accomplished.

                  (PS, I am one of the quirky people who loves the job. :p I’m personally back filling a lot of what needs to be done while we are trying to get these positions filled. I enjoy doing it so much, I don’t even mind disrupting my weekends with it, although, we need more real and actual employees doing it as the others have all been promoted and can only do in spare hours.)

                4. Meg Murry*

                  Would you get more response for good applicants (non-traditional or otherwise) if you asked your employees to work their network for recommendations? Chances are some of them know someone from a previous job that has been out of work for one reason or another that was a good hard worker before with good attention to detail.

                  Related – does it have to be a full time position, or at least does it have to be one immediately? When I was SAH for a little while I would have jumped all over a job that was only 4-6 hours per day instead of a full 40.

                  And it sounds like this position doesn’t necessarily require a degree, but could you get some hits by posting with a local college – maybe there are some December grads that would be a good match? Or any way you could bring someone in as an intern-ish position while still in school and transition them to full time once graduated if it works out?

                  But I think the “let them cry in public and blame it on the agency” is probably the way to go

                6. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

                  Meg Murry!

                  THAT was my brilliant plan to start with, all of the smart SAHMs looking to transition back to working. I’m offering full and part time (min 20 hours a week) and my one winner so far is 20 hours (but putting out close to full time output btw, she’s a rock star). I’m also offering work from home when they get to a certain point.

                  I think the agencies are dumping *all* of their transitional candidates on me now, honestly, although how they can’t tell the difference from this sharp cookie (who published a historical research book during her “off” years as one example) vs the other candidates, I don’t know.

                  It’s all really a side topic. This is a weird job and there’s never been an easy route to filling it. Traditionally I’ve shopped around the division and just stole people I thought would be right for it, but we’re short in a number of areas and I’m pissing off some of my managers with my traditional stealing so, here we go round the Mulberry Bush another direction.

                7. Meg Murry*

                  Ok, so this is kind of a crazy answer, but call the PTO president and/or some teachers or principals. They may know some kick@ss SAHP looking to go back to work that is currently running all the fundraisers, etc. That’s how I got my part time job – through a PTO friend and word of mouth, since I wasn’t really actually looking.

                  Have you posted on LinkedIn, and have you offered a reward to your current employees for referrals? At one company I work for, a referral that lead to a candidate being interviewed got you a small monitary prize ($25 gift card) and entered into a quarterly drawing – there were a couple of small prize raffles for anyone who had made a qualified referral, and a big “grand prize” drawing for only people who’s referrals got hired.

    3. Mythea*

      I think letting them know right away is the best. I know I would prefer it rather than getting my hopes up and then hearing the company didn’t want me.

      I got told this morning on my way to work that I didn’t get a job I had interviewed for last week – my main thought was that it was good to know and I was happy to have a firm direction. I hate the inbetween times when you don’t know what direction you will be headed, so the sooner someone tells me the happier I would be.

      1. Jennifer*

        Yeah, I am hating the “had to figure out for myself I was rejected” thing because you never hear from them. I think I’d rather know right off the bat that there’s no hope.

        Unfortunately, sounds like you’re getting a wide variety of preferences on this and you can’t match everyone’s.

    4. Ad Astra*

      It’s not my favorite approach. I think a lot of people (like the criers) would prefer to get this news in private, so they can react in whatever unprofessional, private way they want. Telling them at the end of the interview still requires them to get out of the building with their dignity intact, which is much harder than getting off a phone call or an email with their dignity intact.

      Some people, if they knew what was going on, would prefer to know immediately — but you won’t really know who prefers what until you see their reaction. Meanwhile, the people who would have preferred to know early won’t actually know that you decided halfway through the interview to reject them — so it’s unlikely they’ll be upset at you for sitting on this information. The safest option is to go through the agency; or if there weren’t an agency, the safest thing to do would be to wait until the next day to deliver the blow.

    5. Miles*

      I think the “proper” approach varies with the person and there’s no overlap where it’s just right for everybody. Some people prefer to leave thinking they got it and never hear back, others feel like you’ve just screwed them over by not being blunt about it, especially if they start getting invested in the position if they think they did well.

      Use the approach that lets you sleep more easily at night.

    6. Tau*

      I think I’d prefer not to be told. I tend to get embarrassingly emotional and tear up at the drop of a hat. If you tell me at the end of the interview, I have to not just react professionally (in person, harder than over the phone), I also have to keep it together all the way until I get home. Or burst into tears in public. (Did that after the end of a PhD interview that went particularly terribly, and it *sucked*.) If someone lets me know by phone or e-mail, I can have my embarrassingly emotional reaction in private and be ready to cope with it professionally the next time I have to interact with anyone who’s connected.

      Also, not telling them immediately afterwards lets them preserve the illusion that they were a totally fantastic candidate but they just so happened to get edged out by someone who was that bit more fantastic. I don’t know if it’s an all-around good thing, but this attitude was definitely how I managed to get through my job search without having my self-esteem crash and burn entirely.

      All this to say: one vote for having Not You do it.

    7. Regina 2*

      I would not want to hear that during the interview. I’m probably more sensitive than other people here, but it would hurt me, especially if I felt I had a good rapport with you. Hearing from the agency, I could understand there were other candidates and it wouldn’t crush my soul as much.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Aw, thanks. This is a big help.

        Everybody’s input was a big help! But the rapport element really helps because I do build rapport with them all. It helps to know that the rapport person is NOT the person you want to hear from.

    8. KW10*

      I also would not want to hear during the interview. One, it makes it feel like a hasty, rush decision. ok, so maybe people often figure out their decision during the interview, but it seems expected that you at least think things over afterwards. Two, like others pointed out, it can be easier to be alone (or home, etc) when getting bad news. And three, it seems like this could really easily turn into an argument, with people pushing back on why you don’t think they’re a good fit. (“We’re looking for someone more xyz.” “But I AM xyz.”) In general I’m all for giving carefully worded feedback about why someone’s rejected (if they ask for feedback), but I think having the distance of email and time to think about what you’re saying would make the whole thing go more smoothly.

      Maybe you could compromise – not tell them the decision during the interview, but email them personally afterwards (maybe the next day?) rather than getting the news through the recruitment agency. That way they still would get a personal touch – and you could give positive feedback if warranted, like “While I enjoyed our conversation and I think you have a lot to offer, for this position we’re looking for someone with more experience in X.”

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Yeah, I’m pretty well convinced this is a “seemed like a good idea at the time” situation.

        I meant well. I’ll just end on a pleasant note and let HR inform the agency ASAP.

        (We can’t contact candidates directly when they are coming thru temp agencies, btw, although realistically, I wouldn’t have time for it anyway.)

    9. TootsNYC*

      I wonder if you could say at the beginning of the intervew that this is a preliminary screen and that not everyoen who gets this far is a good fit,a nd that you hope not to waste their time. Or something. Just so they know that they might be rejected right away.

      Because I think their reaction is telling you that this is way out of the norm, to be told at the end of the interview.

      also, you talk about how friendly everything is, and then they’re rejected, and it feels pretty personal. If they know that it’s not at all uncommon for the decisions to be clear at the end of the interview, it might be easier for them to handle.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        I like this advice. If I hadn’t pretty much decided, based on other feedback in the thread, to let the agency handle it, I’d be taking this on.

        We spend the first five minutes being as open as we can about the job, and how it’s hard for us to find people who are a match because it’s a weird job ( the love/hate, the fail rate), so right off the bat what the candidates should be hearing is “this is a real IF”.

        But I don’t know what the agencies are telling the people before they get here. We have an excellent reputation with the agencies, and a good track record of hiring temps to perm, so IDK. I can’t seem to shake hope out of these people until the bitter end! :-) (meaning, cushion the disappointment).

        But I’d be taking your advice, if I were to continue the course of telling the candidates myself. I think you have the missing element which is stating the expectation that I can let them know by the end of the interview if we’ll be requesting their services from the agency.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Added: Why not make a point in passing of, “I enjoyed meeting/talking with you.” It can happen that two people meet, talk with each other and enjoy the conversation yet nothing materializes out of the conversation. No business deal, no hiring or whatever. I have always thought that interviewers who said that had a lot of class. I noticed that it helped me to move beyond the rejection.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

            I like that. I usually say “nice things” but I like planning to say a specific thing. Thanks!

    10. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      Wakeen, you’ve received some excellent advice.

      Most of my hiring experience is with temp agencies, and I struggle with the same thoughts you have. I like conversational interviews, and I tend to know about halfway through if this is someone I’m considering or not. I thought I’d share a few lessons I’ve learned while navigating that side:

      – Instead of telling the applicant my thoughts at the close of the interview, I thank them for their time, tell them I enjoyed speaking with them, and they’ll hear about next steps from their account manager. This keeps me consistent with how I deliver a message to all applicants. Most of my applicants are used to dealing with the account manager already for the communications and directly with me. (Vendor agencies can be weird.)

      – When I reject, I send my feedback to the account manager and ask her to please share with the candidate. I do the same for those I hire.

      – When I get a slew of kitchen-sink resumes, I’ll talk to the account manager to reiterate what I need and share how the profiles don’t match, and give usually 3-4 key skills I must have, no negotiation.

      I also like to hire based on will, reasoning that skill can always be taught when the role is non-traditional. Finding the right geek can be tricky :)

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Such great input, thank you. Taking it all on board.

        We do a lot of temp to perm hiring for normal jobs and it doesn’t go this way. It’s this weird job that’s the outlier.

        Taking it all on board. Thanks for taking the time to write this!

    11. mander*

      What is this job, anyway? From your description, I think I want to apply!

      (Well, except for the salary part. ;-) )

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Ha ha.

        It’s actually a pathway job into marketing and the people who’ve been promoted out of it make decent money but the only thing I could do to complicate our hiring more is recruit on AAM. :-)

        (It’s an ecommerce coordinator position, putting our products up on our websites. It’s deceptively complicated, requires just the right twist of brain to get the many details correct when pulling from multi sources + the ability to sit at a computer all day, doing this job, and not hate it by the end of the first week. Most people fail on accuracy and consistency and then the people who don’t fail hate it. And then the weird subsection of all of those people freaking love the job. Correlates with folks who’d be inclined to volunteer edit Wikipedia. No lie.)

        1. Dr. Johnny Fever*

          Out of curiosity, have you expressed any of that sentiment around the right twist of brain to the account manager or within the posting? It’s a creative role, and if you haven’t considered applying that creativity to the description, perhaps that could help draw the right person to the flame.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

            We have.

            We’ve been hiring for/filling /struggling with this job for 15 years now (multiple seats), so it’s not a new thing.

            Honestly, the biggest problem is that people think it IS a creative position and it isn’t (although it leads to creative positions). People who can’t last the first 48 hours get super super excited it is their Dream Job, so we have to make the job sound as bad as we can to weed all the dreamers out.

            It’s also not data entry.

            It’s….compilation of information, sometimes from disparate sources, sometimes from the same source, and over and over again, teapot by teapot. But it’s not data entry because you have to bring your brain to make sure all of the details make sense together and are formatted in a customer friendly, customer facing way.

            It’s a weird job!! :-)

  79. MsChandandlerBong*

    I posted last week asking for good luck for the trial assignment I was doing for a potential client. I completed it, and the recruiter got back to me yesterday. Although my sample was “well-crafted” and the recruiter feels I have an excellent grasp of the work they are doing, she doesn’t think they have enough work for me right now. She asked if I would like her to keep my info on file so she can get back to me in April. I said yes, of course.

    The financially desperate side of my brain is mad and screaming, “Well why post a job if you don’t have any work?” The rational side of me is saying, “Well, maybe they posted it now so they have someone lined up when it gets busy.” I’m just so bummed. Also, my husband did not get that grocery position he applied for (the one where he showed up and the interviewer was off that day, so they stood around arguing about who was going to interview him). So now he’s all depressed because he has a college education and can’t even get a job stocking shelves for $9/hour.

    If I had the money to buy tickets, I think I’d start playing Powerball at this point.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      I’m sorry. I hope this turns around for you guys soon. Your husband has had a spectacular run of bad luck. I remember the post a few weeks (months?) ago about him needing references for a short term temp stint and how impossible it was to get them. :(

      1. MsChandandlerBong*

        Thanks! Coincidentally, I just got a call offering me a contract position with a guaranteed 40 hours of work per month. It won’t solve all of our problems, but it’s a good start. The person who called made it a point to tell me they had more than 300 applicants, so I am feeling pretty good right about now!

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          It’s turning around!

          The husband is next. Good thoughts, keep us in the loop. :-)

  80. Notbighead*

    Im overqualified and this is causing me trouble at work
    My boss feel threatened by me and always try to distance me and not let me know what is going on in the department but the moment she needs someone to rely on she comes to me
    My “senior” coworker hates me because she is so jealous becuase im more skilled than her
    I know i sound like a bighead but this is the truth i necer ever flaunt and make them feel im better in fact im very shy and i think before i speak and when i have an idea i say it as a suggestion and sometimes i lead them to an idea and let them think it is theirs … So im really trying to let them feel less threatened by me because this negative energy is putting me down

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Do you think your being overqualified is coming across to them? The way you explain it here, e.g. putting “senior” in quotes, and assuming that they’re jealous and threatened, comes across as thinking you’re superior to them. I could be wrong, but I would examine what sorts of behaviors you have that may come across this way and may be causing trouble.

      1. hardworker*

        of course deep inside I’m looking down at this senior but I never ever made a remark toward her work

        she is having a higher position than me but on a daily basis I’m wondering how she got hired she is clueless and keeps making mistakes … she was hired with this position I thought she would be someone I would learn from … but the truth is I’m teaching her how to do her job … she keeps asking me for help even on the basic things … and pretend it is her idea too

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          I can understand why you’d be frustrated with having to tell her how to do her job but I do wonder if your “looking down” on her is less deep down than you think. I’m not faulting you, but sometimes these things can come across in your demeanor, whether you intend them to or not.

          1. Random citizen*

            +100 I’ve found that it’s not too hard to pick up on which coworkers like me and think I’m awesome and which ones don’t. If you’ve realized that they feel threatened by you or jealous of you, it’s probably a safe bet that you look down on them, even if you haven’t mentioned it out loud.

            1. Random citizen*

              Ugh! *safe bet _that they realize_ that you look down on them.
              I should read things before I post them. :P

  81. Tomato Frog*

    I was thinking about what I would include if I were writing a truthful job advertisement for my current job. E.g. The successful candidate…
    *does not mind working in an open yet preternaturally quiet office atmosphere.
    *is comfortable with constantly shifting and poorly-communicated expectations.
    *has a firm grasp of the basics of managing up.
    What would y’all include in yours?

    1. fposte*

      *needs to understand that we are no joke broke
      *needs to be nice to people anyway
      *needs to understand the jokes about management in academia exist for a reason

    2. Ama*

      *needs to be able to respond to last minute and/or impossible requests from donors, board members, and expert advisors with cheerfulness and no external signs that you are internally screaming in frustration
      * is comfortable finishing projects by deadlines that no one will respect except you

    3. periwinkle*

      The successful candidate:
      * needs to be comfortable with a ludicrous level of risk-adverse bureaucracy
      * needs to know juuuuust how far to push the rules to ensure that stuff gets done despite that bureaucracy
      * is comfortable knowing that the written job description is fixed but the actual job is fluid
      * is not sensitive to noise, chemical odors, forklifts, or the occasional drill bit breaking through the floor underneath
      * thinks it is perfectly normal to have a virtual team meetings even when you’re all sitting near each other

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Drill bits through the floor?? Do you work in a cartoon?

        Though strangely enough I think I would be most bothered by virtual meetings with people who are physically nearby…..

        1. periwinkle*

          Our office space is on the second floor (over a really, really tall first floor) of a factory. They’re reconfiguring the area below us, which has included a whole lot of drilling, and I’m not kidding about the drill bit breaking through the floor. We were all a little paranoid about nearby drilling noises for a while (and it was right under my feet the next week).

          I’ve no explanation for the virtual meetings.

    5. AnotherFed*

      * knows and uses many polite ways to say “That is the dumbest idea I have ever heard and you are about to kill yourself if you try it”
      * is comfortable with encountering snakes, mice, rats, voles, groundhogs, foxes, geese, roaches, vultures, raccoons, and/or coyotes in the workplace
      * needs to be able to track and prioritize competing milestones on 10 different yet interrelated projects and perfectly determine which will actually need their deliverables on schedule
      * must be able to be in at least two places at once. Note that being able to simultaneously handle two different telecons is close, but not sufficient without also having a sidebar in person meeting.

    6. asteramella*

      Must have great poker face for when CEO latches onto yet another “revolutionary” motivational speaker and promises that the company is going to really, really start valuing employees for real this time, then downgrades our benefits and gives everyone a COL raise that doesn’t keep up with inflation.

    7. Clever Name*

      *If you have worked your whole career in large corporate environments, you will not like it here

  82. Jennifer*

    Had my interview on Monday. I think I did awesomely and really impressed them on some points, BUT (a) my manager turned out to be on the interview panel, (b) along with a couple of other people that have occasionally been annoyed at me at times, and (c) they asked MULTIPLE TIMES about my customer service, which is entirely the reason why I want out of this job and into one where I am not on the front lines, and they hate how I do customer service in the first place. So….I may be sunk on that alone. I am just never perfect enough for here.

    I really hate applying for jobs in my own office and I swear I’m never doing it again. As far as I can tell, it looks like they haven’t done a whole lot? They said they want to have second interviews, but from everyone’s calendar it doesn’t look like any were scheduled–and the guy making the decision is going on vacation next week and they claimed they’d decide by the end of next week. I don’t think that is going to happen, somehow, and I can’t even ask.

    So….I suspect I should not be getting my hopes up for this job either, unless every other candidate gets a better job between now and then.

    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

    1. Jennifer*

      Oh, never mind: I found out they ARE having second interviews (without me), as of today.

      Shoot me now.

      1. Meg Murry*

        That doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t get it. I’ve seen places that only did one interview for internal (or interdepartmental) candidates but did a second interview for outside candidates because the first interview was really just the basics with the other candidates.

        It’s not over until it’s over.

        1. Jennifer*

          They said second interviews for everyone, and they interviewed four people on the second go-round, not the last two–presumably I was one of those. Apparently second interview was the lead guy + his supervisor, and she wasn’t in the interview I went to.

          I wish, but I really can’t keep fudging the facts to be optimistic here :/ Plus unrealistic optimism doesn’t make me feel better later.

  83. Librarian Ish*

    Hey all, just wanted to say thanks for the recommendations last week (library job + books that you don’t want to damage = dry hands). I tried the O’Keefe’s Working Hands hand cream, and I swear I watched my skin heal like Wolverine. It’s a struggle not to go around and salespitch it to my coworkers. Thanks!

    1. Dawn*

      If you ever find the Working Hands isn’t … uh… working as well as you’d like, try using the Working Feet! It’s even better!

        1. Dawn*

          Working feet + socks before you go to bed. If they’re really bad, Working Fee + Vaseline + socks. Also this is totally work related because how are you supposed to plan to wear strappy heels to work in the summertime if you don’t start addressing your dry feet now? :)

          1. Kelly L.*

            I’ve been doing the Gold Bond foot cream with those fuzzy socks (they originally came with aloe in them, but it’s long gone). Strappy heels…a girl can dream…

  84. h.cowl*

    The very small business I work for is circling the drain financially & I found out Monday I’m getting laid off in a few weeks. I don’t think the shock has worn off yet – this happened at my last job too (2.5 years ago) and I didn’t really feel the impact emotionally for a couple weeks. I can’t believe I have to do the whole job search thing again.

    3. Leslie Knope's Waffle*

      I’m very sorry to here this. My company is going through a merger right now and I’ve been on pins and needles since I found out. The place you’re in right now is so tough. Sending positivity and strength your way – job hunting is not for the weak. More often than not, you end up in a better position than the one you’re in.

    4. Wendy Darling*

      I just did that at the end of last year. The dead-man-walking period is such a mixed blessing! Like, on the plus side you know what’s coming, but on the minus side you know what’s coming.

      My sympathies!

    5. Elizabeth West*

      :(
      Been through the same thing, twice in a row. Sending good vibes that you’ll find something soon. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  85. Leslie Knope's Waffle*

    Because it’s almost Valentine’s Day…share your funniest or worst Valentine’s Day work stories or tales of workplace relationships gone bad. :)

    1. irritable vowel*

      Loooong time ago…I got pinkeye from someone I had a workplace flirtation with (nothing actually happened between us but there must have been some incidental contact). Who did *he* get it from? His girlfriend, ugh. Not my finest moment!

    2. Elle the new Fed*

      Heh. Once I dated a guy I worked with for about 8 months. We hadn’t told many people that we were dating, even though it wouldn’t have mattered because we were in different departments and functions and had very little overlap.

      One night my coworker friends, who did know, went over to watch a football or basketball game at his house and reported back to me that there was a new girl. Living in his house. Apparently they’d been dating for over a year long distance and he MOVED HER IN without even mentioning it to me.

      Thankfully I was able to save face (mostly) at work because no one knew. He would follow me to the break room for months after that to try like a lost puppy, it was really weird.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      Oh, I had my first heartbreak at my first job. I was in L-U-V with my manager. I was emotionally mature enough to understand that there was no chance for me (mainly due to the big-brother-little-sister vibe of it all, not the manager-managee aspect) but that didn’t stop the feels.

      One day I walked into the break room to ask a question and he was in there HOLDING HANDS with another coworker. My little heart broke but I played it cool in the moment; cried later. Now those two are married and just had a baby–!

      What really stung, though was when I found out she was being paid more than me even though I had been working there longer!!

    4. Ama*

      This didn’t happen around Valentine’s day but at my last academic job, we had a number of one year postdocs in the building. They didn’t really have set schedules (and a lot of them were essentially on sabbatical from their permanent jobs to do special research), so they had varying degrees of presence in the building, but one postdoc in particular was NEVER present — we would not see him for months at a time.

      One day I answered the phone to someone asking where Absent Postdoc was. When I gave my usual spiel for postdoc messages (it was easiest to email them directly or, if you don’t have their email, I’m happy to take your info and pass the message on), it turned out the caller was Postdoc’s FIANCEE trying to find him because he was supposed to be back in his home country for his WEDDING. No one at the office had any idea about any of this. All I could do was tell her, truthfully, that it was entirely possible he was on his way there as he traveled frequently without telling us. We never did find out whether he actually went through with the wedding — I saw him maybe one more time in person before his year was up, and I just couldn’t figure out how to bring it up if there was a possibility he had left her at the altar.

    5. Curlicue*

      Just stopped by to say I love your name – I am literally watching Leslie Knope eat waffles right now!

  86. Ti*

    I retired from a long, successful, but soul-sucking career last year and spent 2015 traveling across the US interning in another field. I am now seeking employment in that field. I have many, many transferrable skills, an educational background in the new field, and excellent references in the both the new and old fields of work. I think I would be a great asset to any organization. My job search is national. I have the means to relocate myself (i.e. without relocation package) if necessary. I could use a road map for this process. I have read umpteen books, articles, blogs, etc on how to transition, but still feel like I don’t know how to do this.

    1. Elle the new Fed*

      Can you tap your networks you made while interning to see where the jobs are? I always have had trouble with nationwide job searches because it’s just SO broad. Focusing in on jobs that contacts pass along or specific cities always helped me (and also were more successful).

  87. Jeanne*

    Can anyone help me find the thread where the discussion of relationship vs. task-based people was held? I think it was in the last year but searching AAM for things like “relationship” is not getting me very far. :/

  88. Random Lurker*

    Has anyone ever been told by a prospective employer that they are second best to a mythical candidate, and to wait around to make sure they can’t find anyone better?

    That’s what I’m going through right now. I’m a passive seeker, so it isn’t like I was banking on getting this role. In fact, the fact that I’m not actively looking (and they know it) may have led them to believe that they could take their time with me to make sure they can’t find someone with everything on their checklist. By the way – they won’t. It’s a very niche role, I know the market much better than the hiring manager who just moved here – the person he is looking for doesn’t exist. I have 29/30 things they are looking for, their words. They may find someone who has the 1 thing I’m missing, but that person will come at the cost of one of the other 29 things. Not being privy to their weighting on different qualifications, I just need to take it at face value and assume that I’m not what they are looking for. But they kept saying they’d call me back in a month or two if they haven’t found anyone else. So weird.

    I keep coming back to is this OK to have told someone? I love that it was honest, but it sort of seems like a bad strategy. If they come back to hire me, I’ll know they decided to settle or lower their expectations. Doesn’t really incentivize me. Part of it is ego, but still. Sort of arrogant on their part thinking I’ll wait around for them to make sure nobody is better.

    1. INFJ*

      That is really, really odd. They must not be in a rush to fill this role. What they should have said was, “we’re still interviewing other candidates and will get back to you in 3 weeks.” That would be a better way to convey that they need more time without flat out telling you that you’re good, but not good enough to give an offer yet.

      I can understand how knowing this information would make you less excited to work there if they did extend you an offer. I’m interested to hear how this turns out.

  89. Kyrielle*

    Alison, the “sponsored content” at the bottom of your post, above the comments, with the bit about Jim Carrey making his first appearance after his girlfriend’s death, appears to loop through the same video over and over. And each time it restarts (showing another ad), it pops focus back up to it and away from whatever I was reading. After about five cycles of this, it crashed my browser. Internet Explorer 11, under Windows 10.

  90. Brad*

    Hey everyone – I hope you can help with a couple of questions:

    1. Do background checks by Canadian companies (in Canada) find US criminal records? Would Canadian offices of American or multinational parents be more likely to find them?

    2. Do I need to give a heads up about my record to internal references – not actual references but acquaintances who are happy to get me past the initial gatekeepers – if I want their help? Would HR inform them of my record if it’s caught? Even if they don’t tell my friends/acquaintances, is it unethical for me not to give them a heads up? They aren’t serving as references in the conventional sense; still, they kind of are vouching for me, no? Would my record reflect poorly on them?

    Thanks so much for any and all input.

    1. Graciosa*

      1. It depends upon the nature of the firm performing the checks and the service that they offer. If you lived in the US, it is much more likely to be discovered than if the crime was committed while visiting (in the absence of a resume gap for prison time).

      Background check services in the U.S. generally include all counties of residence plus the federal / consolidated databases; international searches tend to be quoted as adders depending upon the country. I would not be surprised to have a Canadian background check of a candidate with some U.S. residency include the same areas that a U.S. search would – the countries just do too much cross-border business not to expect this.

      2. References are generally speaking to the quality of the work, so whether this reflects on them among people who know about the conviction is going to depend a bit on the crime. If you have a pedophilia conviction and you’re applying to teach minors, then yes, I’m going to think that anyone who referred you is rather clueless. If you had a minor-in-possession-of-alcohol conviction from a couple decades ago and nothing since, I doubt I would care in determining whether or not to hire you to paint cars in a factory. This just depends.

      I can’t help much on the HR disclosure question. In the U.S., there are laws about this (I’ll skip the detail since it doesn’t apply in Canada anyway) but the practical result is that there are usually rules about what convictions would automatically disqualify you from a job (often felonies involving property damage or injury to persons) and what would result in an evaluation to determine whether or not it disqualifies you. These evaluations may involve HR, Legal, and the Hiring Manager if there is a need to make a determination. Different states have their own legislation, so it gets to be a bit of a specialty area. The company typically needs to notify you if the information uncovered is going to result in the loss of the job offer (and give you time to address mistaken identity, for example).

      However, again, this is U.S. specific. You might try searching for the relevant Canadian laws if you don’t get a quick answer here.

      1. Brad*

        Gracias, Graciosa – not encouraging, but thanks for taking the time to respond. And no, my offence was far less interesting and more piddly than pedophilia. :)

        I was living in the U.S. at the time (about 20 years ago). It sounds like you’re saying that any big company here in Canada would most likely learn about this. Correct?

        1. Graciosa*

          Most likely – but after 20 years, they may not care about whatever it was. If you haven’t lived in the U.S. at all during the last X years and had no U.S. education to verify, maybe not. In this case X is whatever time period the company checks (I’ve had this be 7, 10, and my entire life history depending upon the purpose).

          Good luck.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Why not call the court and ask the court?

          I believe misdemeanors are destroyed after six years? I think DWIs last longer and that is 25. Felonies- not sure.

          But call the court and ask them. If they don’t know they can direct you to someone you can call.
          If you are up for it, maybe you could stop by a police station and see if they find record of it in their database. Just explain you are job hunting and you want to make sure you are stating the charge accurately.

  91. Rat Racer*

    What would you do if you discover that you’re good at something, but it’s not really the trajectory you want for your career? I’ve started helping our sales team present at client meetings, and I really love meeting people and public speaking. I’ve gotten some very positive feedback from senior leadership, which is very flattering, and it’s an opportunity for a promotion and a raise.

    Here’s the thing though: I don’t want to become a sales person. And I’m concerned that if I let my career evolve this way, this is where I will end up.

    Has anyone ever faced this kind of fork in the road? What did you decide to do? How did things pan out for you – are you glad you made the decision you did?

    1. Dawn*

      Presenting at client meetings, meeting people, and public speaking can totally be applied to way, way more than sales. Those are “soft skills” that some people don’t have and will never have, so it’s awesome that you’ve found that you’re good at them! Look for ways to apply those skills in the trajectory you do want in your career.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Yes, you’re right. There are more applications to public speaking than sales. I guess my concern is over becoming too far removed from the actual work my department does because all I will do is sing about it. I.e. I’ll become a talking head rather than someone who contributes to the actual building of the widget.

        To your last point “trajectory you do want in your career” is the big question. I don’t know – and so far, I’ve managed to climb fairly high up in my organization as a generalist. I think I’m afraid of “picking a major,” and then being wedded to that decision for the rest of my life. (The irony isn’t lost on my that the major I picked in college has absolutely nothing to do with my career path).

        Did you ever face these kinds of crossroads? People talk a lot about the difficulty of changing careers or changing industries. I have no interest in changing industries: healthcare is what I know and love. But I do wonder if I will cut myself off from leadership opportunities in the future if I don’t know how to run a program because all I do is evangelize…

        1. Dawn*

          I totally fell into being a business analyst. I was kick-butt at customer service, landed an IT customer support role, and then when time came to make it permanent I was offered the choice of being perm in the IT customer support role or becoming a research analyst for a new division of the company (because my employer saw great potential in me for that role). I thought about it for a while and realized that all things being equal I didn’t want to pigeonhole myself into doing IT customer support for forever, and went with the analyst role. That bloomed into being more and more of a business analyst, and now here I am!

          That being said, I fall back on my customer support knowledge ALL. THE. TIME. I have to talk to people on the phone- boom I’m good at that, been there done that. I have to work through problems with people- boom been there done that. I have to type up really good emails about what all I’m working on, what’s been done, what’s yet to be done- boom been there done that. Probably 60% of my role as a Business Analyst is doing customer support- except my “customer” is the actual company I work for, since I’m solving the company’s problems; the “support” is for the leadership at the company, who I report to while helping to solve the problems. There’s no way I’d be as good at my job if I didn’t have those soft skills.

          As far as you “picking a major”- If you really don’t have a strong preference between any of the options open to you, I’d just pick one and then try to cross-train as much as possible so I’d have an “out” if I needed one.

        2. Overeducated and underemployed*

          No advice except the reminder that avoiding a decision also becomes a decision; trying to remain a generalist could keep some doors open, but others might close in time, so opportunities you might regret missing should also be part of the calculation. Good luck, and enjoy your talents!

  92. Rarity*

    I was wondering if it’s a good idea for me to apply to a job when I’ve been there for less than a year.

    The job I have currently has great benefits, great people, and opportunity for growth. I’ve also only been there for 6 months, but I’m off to a good start and being pulled into different projects and helping to manage some long term projects. I know I have a good amount of work for at least a year. The company is also in the middle of a merger, and I’m a little nervous about how my role will change once we’re fully integrated, but I won’t know until that happens.

    Job #2 offers more money (about 10K more advertised), is in a smaller office, and entails something I’m passionate about. I also have extensive knowledge in the area and I think I would have a good shot at least at getting an interview. It could also lead to a great career in a different direction.

    I feel guilty about applying for job #2 because job #1 is really great and I’m happy right now. Is this something I should even worry about right now?

    1. Dawn*

      Honestly… a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. Jobs like #2 will come up all the time- there’s always another job out there that’ll pay more money and that will be in something you’re passionate about. However, “great people” and “opportunity for growth” and “already being pulled into different projects and helping to manage long term projects” doesn’t happen at every job, and those are *precious, precious* things that you should hold on to very, very tightly.

      Not saying don’t go interview for the other job if it comes up, but having had several really bad jobs when you find a job with good people and good work that needs to be doing YOU HOLD ON AND YOU DON’T LET GO FOR JUST ANY OTHER JOB. :)

    2. Elle the new Fed*

      I second Dawn. You could apply for the other job (it may takes months to actually go through the hiring process) but if you have a good thing, I’d personally want to see that through a little longer.

  93. WelcomeToMe*

    Has anyone (particularly in a creative field) ever done an unpaid “trial” period or project with a prospective employer? It would probably only last a few days, but with no solid guarantee of a job after since it depends on if they liked my work. I’ve only been job hunting a few weeks (currently unemployed) and am worried that I’m already getting a bit desperate and leading myself into thinking that just because they were nice means they won’t take advantage of me.

    Supposedly they do this trial period with all of their employees, but if they liked my portfolio and liked me in the interview, shouldn’t they at least offer to pay minimum wage? They’re a for-profit company (startup) so when I write it all out it seems shady (like spec work which I’m very much against), but I did like the people and company during the interview so I’m feeling confused. Has anyone done a “trial” like this and had it work out?

    1. Graciosa*

      This is absolutely shady (read likely illegal) and you should definitely not do this.

      Companies are allowed to test your skills, but they are not allowed to derive value from the work unless they pay for it.

      So a company in food service who wants to test out your ability to plan a marketing campaign should ask for a sample for a product in an unrelated industry (like mobile phones). For warehouse jobs, if they want to test how well you stack boxes (or follow instructions) they should be testing you with some sample products that are only used for testing (moved from A to B to test one candidate, then B to A to test the next candidate).

      The test should not last for any longer than is needed to test your skill in the specified area – which means even for a prepared project, it should be no more than a couple hours work for *finalists* – not everyone. That’s just too much of an imposition on job candidates.

      If the company is demanding you perform unpaid work that may be of use to them, you need to treat this as a *huge* red flag and disqualify this company as a potential employer.

      And yes, I know it’s stressful to be out of work (although candidly, a few weeks is not that long – there are people who have been out of work for many months or even years) but you should not let that enable crooks to take advantage of you.

      Assume you do good work that the company uses, give up a few days of job hunting time to do it, and never get a job or get a dime from the company because that is the most likely scenario. Do not fall for a con to make you believe this is a good deal for you.

      1. WelcomeToMe*

        As I was writing my comment I realized just how shady it felt considering they’re for-profit (not sure if they’re making a profit yet since they just started, but that’s not my problem!). I think I just needed to hear others say it.
        I agree, three weeks really isn’t that long to be out of work. I’m just feeling impatient and a bit bored. I’ll have to find better ways to occupy myself while I keep applying.
        Thank you!

    2. Ad Astra*

      Yep, that sounds illegal. If they let you do any work with the intention of using that work, they have to pay you. Creative fields are often susceptible to crappy, illegal hiring practices like this because it’s such a competitive field, and many of the industries who employ creative types are somewhat underfunded.

      If they don’t value you enough to pay you for your work now, they’re not likely to treat you as a valued employee in the future.

      1. WelcomeToMe*

        Very much agree with your last statement- thank you! I was thinking of doing it just to kill time while I apply to other things, but then I’m pretty sure I won’t want to work for a place that starts me off this way and might end up just feeling used.

        Would you all suggest that when I decline I let them know that what they’re doing could be illegal? One would hope that they’re doing it because they don’t know and that by telling them I could prevent them from taking advantage of someone else.

        1. asteramella*

          “I’m concerned that this trial period may run afoul of the Fair Labor Standards Act. Is there another way I could showcase my skills?”

          If they are simply ignorant, it’s useful info to know that 1) what they’re asking is illegal and 2) they may be losing qualified candidates over it.

          If they’re shady, they may react defensively/gracelessly and you will know 100% that this company is not worth your time.

  94. Short and Stout*

    I’ve been looking into how our office can successfully share quick parts (for Outlook primarily, but Word would be good too) between many people.

    I’ve been looking here:

    http://www.msoutlook.info/question/574;

    and also here: http://blogs.msdn.com/themes/blogs/generic/post.aspx?WeblogApp=microsoft_office_word&y=2009&m=02&d=03&WeblogPostName=managing-and-administrating-building-blocks&GroupKeys=;

    but wondered if anyone had any direct experience of this?

    My first step was going to be copy–pasting NormalEmail.dotm templates, with the obvious flaw that individual users could no longer add and keep their own quick parts if there were a central version they were to use … and that’s why I started thinking about building blocks (which are new to me).

  95. West Coast Reader*

    I’ve got a graphic design question for anyone who’s a graphic designer or a self-taught pro.

    I’m looking for advice on how I can improve on my graphic design skills. I work in marketing, and as you can imagine, I have to design some graphics for social media or a website.

    I have some graphic design knowledge. I’ve read books and know the basic rules of what you’re supposed to do: not use a million different fonts, make sure there’s hierarchy, align elements, etc. However, I find that I take a long time and fiddle around with picking colours, fonts, etc. And most importantly, I don’t feel like my designs ever “pop”. They just look nice, but nothing special.

    How can I make my designs better? Am I at a point where I might need to take a class to help me over this plateau?

    1. Elle the new Fed*

      I’m not a graphic design pro, but maybe watch some Youtube videos on your design platform and “Intro to Graphic Design” type stuff? (or more specifically, some of the things you are using it for). I used to do that when I had to edit photos (NOT my strong point) and it was really helpful.

      1. West Coast Reader*

        At this point, I’m past the beginner tutorial stage, and they aren’t helpful anymore. As much as the internet is a wonderful place, there’s not a lot of useful information for the proficient beginner for many subjects. There are lots of info for complete beginners and advanced industry people.

        1. LQ*

          Proficient beginner is hard. I would look into like Lynda.com (your local library may have a subscription waiting for you if your local library is awesome….:)) or some of the other sites where you often have to pay, you can usually get a short term free to look and see what is there. This is the best kind of thing outside of in-person type classes. Might be worth looking at something like Coursera to see if they have things targeted at industry folks, I’ve stumbled across things there. (Not graphic design, but places where I’m solidly in the proficient beginner category.) Finally depending on what it is you might find some useful forums. (This has been my ultimate for elearnings, but I’m not sure what the graphic design place for this would be.)

          Finally consider you might not be a proficient beginner anymore. You might get the out of depth feeling on the advanced industry things, but I’ve found myself way under-estimating my skills. Sometimes there are specific things I don’t do, but broad swaths that I’m actually keeping up just fine with the fancy people with fancy degrees. You might be better than you think.

          1. MsChandandlerBong*

            You just changed my life! I had a trial Lynda subscription, but money is tight, so I had to cancel. I never thought to check my local library. Lo and behold, they have it! I’m working on an Excel tutorial right now. Thanks!

    2. TechWriter*

      The Non-Designer’s Design Book by Robin Williams is a good starting place. I’m looking for resources for this as well.

  96. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    A question for the masses – how do you combat low morale on the job? I’ve been working for the same company for the last seven years, in the same position for the last five, and due to a combination of management turnover and health issues, I’ve never had advancement in my position and any extra responsibilities I’ve been given have been shifted around so that more senior workers are handling them.

    At this point, I’m bored out of my skull with my daily duties and struggling to perform because I’m feeling so demoralized. I know it’s a vicious cycle and that failing to perform is not going to see me advance, but staying motivated is really difficult because performing well didn’t get me advanced either. In fact, my crowning achievement in the department got handed over to senior teammates because our new manager (my 5th in five years) did not feel that someone in my position at the bottom of the food chain should be responsible for something so important, after I pulled it out of a horrible backlog and created a process out of thin air where before there was nothing.

    I’m job hunting because I know the best answer is really just GET OUT, but I don’t want to continue sliding downward in the meantime. I just don’t know how to get myself motivated and excited about the same damn thing for a sixth year.

    1. Not Gloria A.A., B.S.*

      I have no advice, just commiseration. I was crying before I left the driveway this morning and have spent most of the morning trying to figure out if we can survive on just my husband’s salary because I am seriously close to getting up and walking out.

      1. De Minimis*

        I tell myself when I walk through the door each day, “Nothing that happens here today is going to get to me. It doesn’t matter in the long run.”

    3. TootsNYC*

      “I’m bored out of my skull with my daily duties ”

      Can you find your own “constituency” that you are “serving,” even if it’s only in your head? Some cause that you can use to motivate you?

    4. Jennifer*

      Why should you get motivated and excited? There’s no reason to. I am at the “fuck it” point and really, why should I be going the extra mile when it gets me nowhere? Just do what you need to do and direct your extra energy (if you have any) towards finding a way out. Clearly nobody cares if you do excellently there, so why bother?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Well, because it will impact you — your reputation and your future prospects. I know from your comments here that you’re in a pretty bad place with your job, but this kind of thinking Is Not Good. It’s really damaging, both for your day to day happiness and your career long-term. I urge you to resist it. I know that’s easier said than done, but don’t let this be another way that a job that’s a bad fit hurts you.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I should add — I’m all for putting your energy toward getting out. But the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m not saying you need to be all rah-rah for a job that doesn’t warrant it (you don’t), but there’s a difference between that and remaining reasonably positive, professional, and driven.

          1. Doriana Gray*

            This is so true. I hated working at churn-and-burn law firm after about a year, so I started job hunting – it took me another year and seven months to land a new gig. But in the meantime, I continued to volunteer for additional duties at the firm, including working voluntary OT on top of our mandatory OT, all the while knowing that that place, and my manager in particular, didn’t deserve it. I did it because I knew I’d get out eventually, and I wanted to build up my résumé with impressive accomplishments. If I had just thrown up my hands and checked out, I’d probably still be working there because no one wants to hire (or give a good reference to) that person.

  97. SH*

    My boss put in his two weeks notice and has been insufferable (to the point where he was actually reprimanded by his own boss at one point). This week has been difficult (and long!) and today I can’t even hide the fact that I’m excited he’s done.

    If you hate your job and decide to leave, please don’t mentally flip your colleagues off and decide to be difficult.

  98. Brett*

    Good news!
    After not even getting to an interview for several positions, a recruiter that contacted me landed me an interview with one of the top tech firms in town on a team they formed within the last six months. Made it past all the phone interviews and waiting for the in-person interview to be scheduled. The position is a contractor position, so I have a lot of concerns about replacing benefits as well as being paid enough to offset trading stability for pay and opportunities, but everything else about the position sounds really good.
    What is really cool is that multiple people inside the company have contacted me to tell me they saw my name on the interview list and contacted the hiring manager to let him know I would be a great hire for his team. I think I know several members of the current team, and they are all very skilled people and solid co-workers. Also, normally my type of role would just be a chocolatier on a chocolate teapot-making team (locking out any chance of advancement unless I shift to making teapots instead of making chocolate). This team is a chocolatier team with the goal of advancing the state of the art of chocolate for all teapot makers enterprise wide. I am excited about that approach.

  99. Cupcake Girl*

    So we’ve been interviewing for an upper level management job and saw some very good candidates. We’re now down to the final 2 and one person did something that I thought was a little too eager beaver.

    He has a very strong resume, seems competent and a likeable guy. The problem? He sent my boss (the guy he’d be reporting to) an email “in the spirit of David Letterman, listing the top 10 reasons why you should pick me!” This guy is in his late 40’s and not a naïve newbie.

    I found this really off-putting and quite frankly, weird. I can’t imagine this having a positive effect on his candidacy. My boss has a great sense of humour, but this tactic struck me as tone-deaf.

    Anyone else think this is a super bad idea?

    1. Dawn*

      I just cringed so hard I think I pulled a face muscle. If this is how one of the 2 finalists chooses to make himself stand out, what other tone-deaf stuff would he do once he got the job?

      1. Cupcake Girl*

        Dawn, thank you for confirming what I was feeling when I read it. The email was just so cheesy and dumb and I was left shaking my head, thinking, why??!!

    2. Graciosa*

      I’m not sure it’s a super bad idea in the sense that any company stupid enough to hire this clown will be getting what it deserves (and removing him from the pool of potential employees at reasonable companies, which is a bonus). I would have instantly disqualified him (and silently thanked him for making the choice between the two finalists an easy decision for the other candidate).

      Maybe we can deem it a successful test of culture fit? ;-)

      1. Cupcake Girl*

        Well, we find out on Monday if he’s the successful one. The decision will be made over this weekend.

        I’m curious to see how this one will play out come next week!

    3. Charityb*

      What’s going to happen is that, if he gets the job despite that email, he might get the idea that he got the job *because* of the email. Then we’ll see a LinkedIn post or an advice column article along the lines of, “Here’s a hot tip on how to ‘stand out’ and land that great new job…”

    4. Lulubell*

      Is it possible he had a laugh/moment of bonding with your boss over David Letterman? If I make a personal connection in an interview, I usually try to loop back to it in my follow-up correspondence. It still seems a bit over the top to do the list as you say, but it’s less offensive to me if it’s rooted in a conversation that took place.

  100. Newbie*

    This is mainly a vent. I have a coworker that is pretty inept and is really driving me nuts today. There were some reorganization changes made last year that revised some of his responsibilities, though technically they are things he should have been doing previously that fell within the scope of his job description. And he did get a promotion and raise to accompany the revised responsibilities.

    I’ve been trying to be patient while he became comfortable with her new-ish role, but there are still continual mistakes that then impact my work or I have to take the time to fix his mistakes. His supervisor is aware of the issues and is attempting to work through them, but my company doesn’t have a great history of handling performance issues well.

    So another mistake just came to my attention that I had to take time to fix, so I’m taking a 10-minute lunch break to vent (Thanks for being here!). I know I need to be patient and allow his supervisor time to work through the performance issues, but in the meantime it’s frustrating.

    Any suggestions on strategies to stay calm and not strangle my coworker?

      1. newreader*

        I do the fixing because my boss tells me to. It’s a bit of s weird situation: my coworker is responsible for some tasks that can impact my supervisor if not done correctly. When errors come to light that need immediate attention, my boss looks to me to do those. I know the coworker’s direct supervisor is aware of the issues and is doing what he can to hold the coworker accountable, working through the various stages of conversation that may lead to a PIP. I’m just looking for strategies to manage my frustration in the interim. I’m not known for my patience when it comes to incompetence. And the three mistakes that came to light today threw quite a monkey wrench in my day.

  101. Anon T*

    My temp agency finally got me some work! Just enough (so far) to keep me afloat this month, especially since I got an tutoring shift I wasn’t expecting.

    Also had a very engaging interview and then got asked for references (in a way that made clear they would actually be checked).

  102. Nervous Accountant*

    In other news….tax season is starting. Turnover is insane here, we had someone start and by lunch time, she quit. Another person started a few weeks ago and didn’t come back the next day, and someone else was let go after less than 2 weeks. 3 others left on their own.

    I’ve posted here in the past how worried I was about job security, and I still am. For weeks now I’ve been thinking about looking elsewhere (after hte season).. but I’m torn. For a very long all I’ve wanted was to be permanent somewhere…I don’t feel ready to look elsewhere..>I don’t feel I have enough experience (18 months) or even knowledge to look elsewhere. :(

    1. De Minimis*

      How many tax seasons have you been through? I know for tax accounting that’s usually what they look at for experience level, so if you’ve been through two tax seasons that’s considered two years of experience.

      It sounds like a really rough environment, my sympathies. I know you don’t feel ready but maybe you could at least check and see what’s posted online.

    2. Dawn*

      Here’s a secret… you’re never going to feel ready. None of us *ever* feel fully ready to stick our necks out and look for another job!

      You’re an accountant! Those are needed EVERYWHERE- every individual person on the planet and every company out there, large and small, deals with money every day. I promise that somewhere out there, there’s a TON of companies going “Man it would be great if we could get an accountant that had been doing it long enough that they knew the basics but who wasn’t set in their ways so much that they couldn’t be trained! WHERE ARE THEY!” And you can pop up and go “Hi, it’sa me! Nervous Accountant to the rescue!” Mario voice optional when you say that.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Really? That’s interesting (that no one feels ready)! This is going to be my 3rd tax season at this company, and 5th or 6th one overall depending on how you look at it (2011, 2012 as temp/seasonal, let go in mid TS 13)

        My reasons for looking outside are professional…..I don’t know how much more I’ll learn here. My reasons for staying, which are overwhelming leaving…are personal. This is my first FT/permanent job and I feel like I’d be throwing it away. I hated the search process. But I’m so scared that if I go to a new place, I’ll be so bad that I’ll be fired.

        1. Dawn*

          “That’s interesting (that no one feels ready)!”
          Yup! I mean I suppose some people do, but there’s definitely a huge theme of not feeling ready to make the jump to a new job. Change is scary! The unknown is scary!

          “This is my first FT/permanent job and I feel like I’d be throwing it away.”
          If you’ve learned all you can learn from that job then it’s time to move on. That’s not “throwing it away”- look, a job is like eating an apple. For a while, you get great big juicy satisfying bites (full of knowledge and career growth and enjoyment). Then, for a while you get smaller bites, still juicy, still kinda satisfying, not as huge as before (so still some knowledge to be learned, but not the oodles and oodles you were getting at the beginning). Eventually, however, you get down to the core- the core of the job, knowledge of almost everything you’ll ever learn there- and if you stick around after that point you’re sucking on seeds and wasting your time because there’s nothing else to get from gnawing on that apple core any longer.

          “I hated the search process.”
          Everyone also hates this :) Doesn’t help when you’re in the middle of things, but I promise you’re not alone in hating it!

          “I’m so scared that if I go to a new place, I’ll be so bad that I’ll be fired.”
          BEWOOOOP BEWOOOOP IMPOSTER SYNDROME DETECTED BEWOOOOP BEWOOOOOOP! Imposter syndrome is ridiculously common- we talk about it a ton on AAM- it always crops up every week in the open thread, and AAM has answered plenty of letters dealing with it. This is totally something that you can overcome! Search the archives of AAM and if you don’t come up with anything good, ask for more resources on getting over it either in this open thread or in the one next week!

        2. Elle the new Fed*

          “This is my first FT/permanent job and I feel like I’d be throwing it away.”

          I felt this way when I left my first FT job too. The job search was SO much better after that first job because I had the ability to talk about all the amazing things I’d done. There are so many accounting jobs out there and you have YEARS of experience. Don’t be afraid to spread your wings!

        3. Tax Accountant*

          I worked in public accounting at a large regional firm for three years. I felt stupid every day my first two years, but I learned so much it was incredible. I would not recommend leaving after 18 months. Two years would be okay. Three to five would be better. Once you learn to review returns, you become even more valuable. Pass the CPA exam if you haven’t already. That will open up all kinds of doors. If your work environment is terrible and you think the firm is about to go under financially, then that’s a different matter, and in that case, get out ASAP… but if you can, stick it out a little longer.

          I think it’s natural to be nervous about your skills and wonder if you’ll do okay in a new job. I recently started a job at a law firm preparing taxes for the clients of their estate and trust department. I was worried too, but I didn’t need to be. Three years in public accounting more than prepared me for this job. Getting a new job is not throwing away the old one. It’s just moving on.

          FWIW, If this is more about your own uncontrolled anxiety (which from your language, it seems like that may play a factor. Forgive me if I’m wrong), then no matter where you go, there you are. I think that confidence in your abilities naturally develops with time and experience, but that can be interrupted if your anxiety is out of control.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            I think that’s possible! I gave myself this moniker after my job right before this one where I had the same fears, but my boss was a true psycho. I was let go twice in past jobs, and always struggled to find something.

            The work environment….I can say that my coworkers are awesome people, and while I’ve had my fair share of crazy clients, they’re pretty decent overall. I’ve lived through horrible coworkers, bosses, and see it here all the time.

            Also, I wanted to be a reviewer, not right now or anytime soon but work my way up. One advice I got was: make sure your work is flawless, know how and why the $$s are the way they are from every line on a tax return.. The problem here? Is that no one here to judge that it’s flawless! I’m getting by w making sloppy mistakes. And the way the things are going here…it feels much more like call center work than actual accounting work. I spend more time navigating our CRM and softwares than any actual work. They’re outsourcing everything!

            I want to stay here long enough to be good enough to be a reviewer…I just don’t kno whow things will be at other places. I don’t have an Acc degree, so I can’t do a CPA unless I go back, but I do have my EA license right now which I’ve worked hard at keeping current.

          2. Nervous Accountant*

            Btw Tax Accountant, thanks so much for your comment!

            To expand on my earlier comment…I do want to be good enough to do reviews. Any advice or tips on how I can get there?

            Can I ask you some questions about your new place? How much time do you spend on the phones? talking to (phone, email or in person) clients?

  103. FrazzledFreelancer*

    Hi all. I recently started my own one-man business doing consulting / freelancing. As I’m acquiring clients, I’m finding it increasingly difficult to keep up with all of their procedures, systems, and requirements. I can give some examples.

    – I work in a highly regulated field, so there always seems to be a company-specific training schedule that I need to keep up with doing online modules, etc.
    – All the security-related stuff – For one client, I already have at least a half-dozen username and password combos for various internal sites they use.
    – Detailed nuances for each company – e.g. Teapots Inc. requires that consultants use Enterprise while traveling, but Sips & Spouts requires that I use Hertz. Or, company X allows me to bill for time spent preparing for a presentation, but for company Y I can only bill for the presentation itself.
    – For one company, I’m actually a sub-contractor, so I feel like it’s double the hassle trying to keep up with all the logistics for BOTH companies!

    I’m already a very organized person, but am starting to feel overwhelmed in staying up-to-date with all the logistics and making sure I’m doing everything according to the client’s requirements. I sure am thankful that I have enough clients that this is actually becoming an issue, but I definitely don’t want to start losing clients because of this problem! I could use some help! I appreciate any first-hand advice, or recommendations for blogs or sites similar to AAM that may focus on freelancing or working for yourself. Thanks so much.

    1. Christian Troy*

      Do you think it’s possible to get an assistant to help with any of that or is that completely off the wall?

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      For passwords, just use LastPass or some other app. I use LastPass with two-factor authentication for my most important work and personal accounts, and for those I require that my master password be re-entered every time for security purposes.

    3. just laura*

      If it were me, I’d print out the “rules” for each company and pull it out / hang it up when i was working for them. Kind of like switching your uniform or something.

    4. Aardvark*

      You might be able to find a simple/cheap CRM system aimed at freelancers that you could set up–something you could use to store notes, procedures, travel requirements, and appointments/training date information. (Though that wouldn’t help with the passwords!)

  104. Ayla K*

    I currently work as an analyst but I’ve realized that my real passion is HR and I’m trying to make a massive career shift. My manager knows about this and is totally supportive. For a number of reasons, it’s not feasible/possible to move into the HR department of my current employer, so I’m looking elsewhere. I’m five years out of college and I’m having a lot of trouble with this hunt. Many of the job listings I see ask for 2 years of HR experience; I know that’s not always super rigid, but I have basically zero. The big issue, of course, is that I can’t get experience in a lot of HR software without being in an HR role. So what can I do to make my applications more competitive? (My resume and cover letter are already tailored for each role and I’m an avid reader of this site, so I follow all the basic advice.)

    1. notfunny.*

      Can you move into an HR analyst role? I guess it depends on what you currently do, but is there a way to utilize your current skills in HR?

      1. Ayla K*

        HR Analyst roles – at least from my understanding – requires a pretty strong handle on HR software and platforms, which I definitely do not have. Also, I am not a very good Analyst. (that may be the imposter syndrome, but from meetings with my managers, I know I’m way behind the rest of my team.)

        I’m looking at HR Coordinator roles, which seem the most entry level in this field, but I imagine those are getting TONS of resumes, including from people who *do* have some HR background. Since I have none, I’m trying to figure out how to become more competitive.

    2. asteramella*

      Could you look at volunteer opportunities that have HR-adjacent responsibilities, like volunteer coordinating, giving orientations, etc.?

  105. G*

    Anyone here work in publishing? I’m interested in the industry and wondered if you could give me an overview of what you do, the ups and downs, and what would make someone a good fit for a role (I’m thinking the editorial side of things). Thanks!

  106. katamia*

    I was reading something the other day where people mentioned that they’d been fired from jobs for not showing up without ever having been told they were hired in the first place. Obviously it wasn’t their fault (and I think a couple of them mentioned that the firing was rescinded when the mistake was realized), but it got me curious: if something like that were to ever happen to me, would I have to check “yes” on applications that ask me if I’ve ever been fired?

    1. Not Gloria A.A., B.S.*

      So I was never really fired from this job, but it showed up in a background check. I had gone in for an interview and it wasn’t something I really wanted to do and I never heard back from it so I put it out out my mind. Months later I did get a job and it showed up as me having worked there. I don’t think it said I was fired, it just was on this list that my employer found, I think it was through The Work Number or something, and they wanted to know why I hadn’t listed it in my employment history. I just told them that I was never offered a job there, that I interviewed and never heard back. That seemed to satisfy. And no, I don’t check that I’ve ever been fired because I don’t think I was in that instance.

  107. Miles*

    Hirers of AAM, let’s say you’re hiring for a just-completed-that-B.S.-degree level position with a GPA requirement, and an applicant sends in their transcript, and the listed is very different (by more than a point out of 4.0) from what is provided on the transcript. How do you treat this situation? I’d like to get an idea what a hiring person might be thinking when they see this, and what I should do.

    I’d like to hear opinions without considering this context, because I don’t see a way to bring it up before an interview, but I’ll provide it for the curious: I was asked to leave my major at a tech school because of a few semesters of low grades in a row, and I dropped out and transferred to a community college to finish up an associates degree, then went on to a third school for my B.S. in a different but somewhat related field. This final school decided to calculate my GPA using all of my classes from school 1, 2 classes out of about 8 at the community college, and of course all classes from itself. (the 2 classes are ones I took there while still enrolled in the first tech school, the others after I transferred out. That’s the only theme I’ve been able to determine)

    I calculated my GPA based on just the classes at this final school.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Regarding the transcript, I’d probably ask them to clarify if and when they interviewed, assuming I noticed. And I probably would, as I have a very good feel for numbers, but most probably wouldn’t. If you give your GPA on your application or resume based just on the grades at that school though, they should match what that school’s transcript says. If the two didn’t match I would feel it was being dishonest, and while I might ask you if you were in front of me, I also might be less likely to call you in for an interview if I felt you were cherry-picking data.

    2. Dawn*

      “I calculated my GPA based on just the classes at this final school.”

      Nooooo that’s not how that works. You can’t just pull a GPA out of thin air- it HAS TO match what’s on your transcript. That’s why companies ask for transcripts!

      Totally sucks because it sounds like your early college years were tough and even though your later years were great, your overall GPA took a nosedive. However, if you wait about 3 years no one will ever look at your GPA again and it’ll all be water under the bridge. But PLEASE don’t use anything other than the official GPA on your transcript when applying to jobs, because that’s going to be an enormous flaming red flag to hiring managers and come across as a bold-faced lie.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        This reminds me, I had well below a 2.0 my first three semesters, until I discovered that behavioral science was what really interested me. I graduated with a 2.8 overall, but right after that on my resume I added “3.5 GPA in major” (or whatever it was, it ceased to matter decades ago) for my first couple of years out of college. I hoped that the 2.8 might be somewhat mitigated by that, and maybe if GPA was important they would decide to get the full story by reading my transcript.

        1. Dawn*

          Ooo that’s a really good idea! If I was a hiring manager and saw that I’d totally understand the situation much better.

        2. Miles*

          Do you (or anyone) have a recommendation on how major GPA is to be calculated? I don’t know how to decide what courses “count” without feeling like I’m cherry picking.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            I’m pretty sure I just used the average grade for all my Sociology courses, since that was my major. Actually, I might have had one psych course as a Soc. requirement, in which case I would have included it. Just whatever your department said counts towards your major — everything in your department, and probably a lot of stuff in related departments. It should be pretty clear because there’s usually a list of required courses and those that count towards the required number of credits in your major.

          2. Lia*

            Courses in/required for the major is how we do it at the university I work for. So if you needed biology, chemistry, and stats as requirements for the behavioral psych degree, count those courses as well as the ones in behavioral psych.

            Caveat: may not be the same at every school. Your alma mater probably has their catalog online, which should provide some guidance.

          3. The Cosmic Avenger*

            If you can’t find good guidance on this from your alma mater and your major was one of those cross-disciplinary things that means it’s not as blindingly obvious as mine was, then you may have to just make up your own criteria. Then imagine explaining those criteria to a skeptical hiring manager. Do you feel like they couldn’t reasonably object? If it’s logically defensible, then you should be OK.

          4. BRR*

            I’m wondering if you could list the GPA that is on the transcript and then the final school GPA? If you were at the third school for a decent amount of time and it’s clear you attended multiple schools, I would be ok putting it together that you had a rough start and pulled it together.

        3. mander*

          I did something like this, too. I originally intended to do a double major, but I found out that I was really awful at major number two and wound up on academic probation for a year. My overall GPA was not that great because of it, but I aced every class in my eventual major, so I noted that on my applications.

      2. Ad Astra*

        What really sucks is that I happen to know that my undergrad institution doesn’t include transfer grades in its GPA calculation, so OP would be good to go had he graduated from my school.

        1. Miles*

          It’s worse than that, my listed GPA is acutally calculated differently from what the policy says, which is what made me feel like they were the ones unjustly cherry picking in the first place (even if the actual one would be even lower by like 0.03)

          1. Miles*

            Although, reading it again with this estimate this does sound petty. I wish I’d thought of it like this before, I could have potentially saved myself a lot of headaches.

    3. Graciosa*

      If GPA reported by the institution (which is supposed to be objective and isn’t looking for a job at my company) is significantly lower than what is on the resume, I am not going to hire that candidate.

      First, I’m going to assume this is an integrity issue, and I am not flexible on integrity.

      If I found this out at a later stage, I might ask the candidate to explain the discrepancy – but candidly, if the difference is that large, I would probably rule them out without bothering. I can see explaining the difference between a 3.5 and a 3.4497 as a rounding issue (actually, I’d probably assume that without asking) but I have a hard time imagining a good explanation for a difference of an entire point.

      The explanation provided above would not make me change my mind. It makes me think that the candidate makes up their own rules to get to the result they want or make themselves look better, which is also a reason not to hire this person.

      The school gets to determine how the GPA is calculated. The students don’t get to decide that they don’t like it and they’re using their own method or figures. Are they going to just mentally change a few grades they disagreed with as well?

      If you’re asking how to get the result you want (get hired by a company with a firm minimum GPA requirement you don’t meet) I probably can’t help you. Sometimes this stuff happens. Your GPA results are what they are, and you’re going to have to live with that. The good news is that no one will care two years from now, so this will pass.

      In the interim (and as a general rule), honesty is your best policy – and possibly your only hope if I was the hiring manager. You could list your “overall” GPA using the figure on your transcript and add a line for “GPA at X school” or “GPA in major” or something along those lines. This may get noticed by a manager who is interested enough in the overall package your resume presents to meet you and hear the story.

      I wouldn’t have a problem hiring someone who struggled, learned from, and overcame their problems in the absence of any integrity issues. It actually says a lot about a person that they didn’t give up and found a way to accomplish the goal in spite of some setbacks.

      But if I think you’re lying to me, we’re done.

    4. Vera*

      Can you report your major GPA on your resume as well? This is what I did, to demonstrate competency in the classes specific to my major. But this should also be on the transcript.

    5. MsChandandlerBong*

      I would ask the student to clarify. Twice now, I’ve had teachers submit the wrong grades for me, and it took way more effort than it should have to clear up the issue. One teacher submitted an A- when I had an A, and another teacher submitted a B instead of an A (and I had a 97 average, so it wasn’t like I had a 92.5 and expected him to round up).

  108. Libby*

    If I take time on the clock to fill out a survey about trends in our field, and the survey company is offering an Amazon gift card as an honorarium, who gets the gift card – me, or my employer?

    We’re a small company where money is tight, and I know the gift card amount would be a big help for our supplies and equipment budget – but I don’t get paid that much, and it would also be a big help for MY budget. :P The survey took about half an hour to complete.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Did they send the survey to your employer and your employer asked you to fill it out? Probably not. If they sent it to you, and they want your opinion, then you get the card IMHO.

    2. Graciosa*

      The overall scenario I see here is that you were solicited at work (work email) because of your job to respond to questions about the industry (as opposed to say, your vacation preferences) and you did so (using half an hour of the company’s time).

      I’m not seeing *any* justification for doing anything other than treating this as belonging to the company.

      If your manager rejects it and tells you to keep it (which I might do as a manager, although it would depend on the amount and whether our policies require us to return it instead) then you can accept it.

      Otherwise, the fact that you really want it does not change anything.

      1. Libby*

        I wouldn’t say my job is to respond to questions about the industry – I do purchasing for a retail store – but I guess that’s splitting hairs.

        Just curious, would your answer change if I had answered the survey during my unpaid lunch, or forwarded it to my personal email to take at home?

        1. Graciosa*

          Forwarding it wouldn’t change anything (it was directed to Libby@employer.com, and they were seeking information from an employee of employer, not Libby@FormerSchool or Libby@FrequentTraveller or whatever).

          I would also consider responding to surveys within the scope of your job (but if your employer disagrees, they win!). I don’t mean this in the sense that as an employer, I want my employees sitting there all day just responding to surveys. It is, however, pretty normal to get industry surveys of all types, and as a company, we may even care enough to purchase survey results.

          A large part of this value comes from the fact that the people taking the survey are working in the industry (this is what I meant saying you received it because of your job). They didn’t want surveys from random individuals, they wanted people who work in your field.

          Logically speaking, if I want to be able to benefit from good survey data, I need to let employees respond to some of them (time and other priorities permitting).

          I do think that if this was something you did on your own time *in the absence of the other factors* it would go the other way, but the other factors are still enough for me to still say this goes to your employer (work email, industry survey rather than personal one, etc.). If you filled out a generic survey you were handed at the mall on your lunch hour, I would be completely convinced the other way – but this one has too much to do with your job and your company.

          Sorry.

    3. Temperance*

      What’s the amount?

      I get to keep anything like that sent to me, but I work at a very large firm and it would be seen as strange to turn a $25 Amazon giftcard over to Finance.

      1. Libby*

        $75! That is, if it ever shows up – I took the survey two weeks ago. How long does it take to email a bunch of gift cards?

  109. Nota*

    GPA on resumes. Yay or nay? I’m helping a friend polish is resume (he’s looking for a non-academic job after Ph.D.). I say nay since it’s productivity that counts, especially for someone who hasn’t had classes in so long. Some people I’ve talked to say that they think that would appear suspicious and that they’re trying to hid bad grades. Thoughts?

    1. Dasha*

      I’ve heard to include it if your degree is recent and if your gpa is 3.5 or higher but maybe some others can comment as well.

      1. Nota*

        Five years from when? Last time he had classes? College? He’s been doing research work toward his Ph.D. for the last 8 years and it’s been 5 years since he’s had classes, but his research credit are credits, too.

      2. Lia*

        I am 10 years out and I do still say summa cum laude on my educational information, but I also work in higher ed where this is slightly more common.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Generally, nay. Companies that want your GPA will ask for it. And if it’s anything less than, like, 3.8 many people will wonder why you’re “bragging” about a not-that-impressive GPA — because, again, you don’t have to include it, so why include anything that isn’t stellar? (Personally, I’m not really swayed by a stellar GPA, either. But those in industries like law or engineering might be.)

      1. AnotherFed*

        In engineering, anything above a 3.5 is pretty good, especially if you’re at a reputable engineering school. I think only the top 20 or so in my 400ish person graduating class could claim GPAs higher than 3.8!

    4. Felicia*

      Nay. My GPA was great, but no employer has ever asked about it, or cared, and I have never put it on my resume. I wouldn’t care about someone’s grades either.

      If someone graduated within the past year or two AND didn’t have too much other experience, than maybe, I guess.

    5. fposte*

      I’m a complete no given we’re talking about a PhD. He hasn’t done coursework for a while anyway, and PhD coursework is pretty much meaningless as a measure of anything outside of the PhD.

    6. AnotherFed*

      For a PhD, the only time that might be useful is for government jobs. There’s some special non-competitive hiring authorities that are based partially or wholly on GPA in certain degree areas.

    7. Ultraviolet*

      I’d say no too. As others have said, it’s hard to tell from the outside what kind of classroom performance your grade in a PhD level class indicates. Moreover, your friend needs to show that he’s really focused on and ready for the world outside academia. Putting his GPA on his resume will undermine that.

  110. Rusty Shackelford*

    A teenage friend of my daughter asked if I’d give her a reference. Thing is, I’ve never worked with her. (I told her I’d be happy to give a personal reference but it won’t carry a lot of weight and she’d need some work references.) If anyone asks, I thought I’d tell them that she’s creative and unfailingly polite to her elders ;-), and of course I’ll be honest about not having worked with her. Is there anything else I can say that a manager will give a rat’s patootie about?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think there are plenty of things you can notice about someone outside of work that can have relevance to their work habits. Have you seen her doing chores, helping others, or organizing an activity? You’re right, most hiring managers would take this kind of a recommendation with a salt lick rather than a grain, but I think you can make it not completely worthless by stressing how Arya helped organize the annual neighborhood block party, or even just stayed available during the setup running errands and reporting back immediately for her next errand.

    2. Dasha*

      Is she just going for retail or after school jobs? I think it would be fine if you’re honest and say, hey she’s polite and creative. If you know she’s timely and keeps her word that would be good to mention. She may also want to ask her teachers to be references (?)

      1. SusanIvanova*

        Yeah, it’s not like teenagers have a lot of job history. A good employer will know that and just want to know if they’ve got the attitude to be a good employee.

  111. Dasha*

    Hm, I’m a little late to the party. I used to teach adjunct classes at a community college about five years ago and I’m thinking about trying to get a class in the Fall for extra money but I’ve been out of the college game for so long and have been in a different full time field that is not academic related. Does anyone have any advice on how to structure my cover letter? I feel like my job now is so unrelated to teaching…

      1. AnotherTeacher*

        This is good advice, especially if the field you are in has a practical aspect you can bring to the classroom. Can you provide more information about your field of work and teaching area?

    2. newreader*

      You might consider including in a cover letter what you would be bringing to the students. Particularly if your current field is a subject you can teach for a college, the you’d be bringing recent real world experience into the classroom.

  112. Wendy Darling*

    I got an interview, hooray!

    For a job I don’t really want, boo!

    I do want to go to the interview because if they’re really, really amazing and they offer a reasonable salary I could take it. But I’m kind of scared that the cultural problems I expect will all be true and/or they’ll offer me the kind of embarrassingly low salary they are reputed to hand out, and I’ll decline the offer, and then my unemployment check will be at risk.

    I also have to email my references to give them a heads up, which I am oddly anxious about and don’t want to do even though they’re all wonderful people I really enjoyed working with and who will support me in anything I choose to do.

    1. SusanIvanova*

      Ow, it’s tougher when unemployment is on the line; I interviewed at a place that looked OK on paper but was such a mismatch that I was very relieved when they turned me down. The unemployment rules do say you can turn it down if it’s not “suitable work”, but that’s got a fuzzy definition; I’d try to find out what that covers in your state – the low salary might be one of them.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I can live without an unemployment check, and honestly I’d rather scrimp a little than wreck my mental health taking a job at a company with a toxic culture that’s about to get bought out and pays 60-70% of market rate, which is the not-improbable worst case here… and do it for 1-2 years before moving on because I’m too early in my career to get away with job-hopping!

        I do, however, have massive, overwhelming guilt at the prospect of turning down a job when I’m unemployed.

        1. SusanIvanova*

          Well, that depends on what your job market is. If you can afford to take the time to get a good match, that’s better for you and the employer than taking the first one would be.

          But then I never feel guilty about anything job-related – the power is generally on their side, and they’re not feeling guilty about what they do.

  113. CA Admin*

    We finally got our raises and bonuses and mine are really good! 14% raise and a 10.5% bonus. The entire bonus went into my retirement, so nothing really fun, but it’s nice to know that my boss thinks I’m doing well.

  114. Aurora Leigh*

    Any advice for managing someone older than you?

    I recently took over as director of a very small non-profit. There is one other employee who has been here for 3 yrs. She is 50+ years older than I am. She says she has no plans to retire. She has a very negative attitude towards life in general and she sometimes takes it out on our patrons. She’s also very resistant to change of any kind.

    She seems to take my introvertedness as a personal insult to her. I’m trying to be more transparent, but is there anything else I should be doing?

    I’ve never been a manager before, and she’s spoken to me twice about how she doesn’t think I’m a good manager. Help!

    1. Graciosa*

      Ignore her age entirely. It is irrelevant to you as a manager (unless you’re responsible for worrying about age discrimination as you manage a layoff with WARN act notifications, but that’s not your issue).

      You are managing an employee who is negative, rude (if she’s taking it out on patrons) and resistant to change. You set clear expectations, with clear consequences for failing to perform at the level required for the position. This includes firing her if needed.

      You do this with confidence, because you are the manager.

      She has “spoken to you twice” about how she doesn’t think you’re a good manager? Why are you letting her manage you? You seem to have some confusion about who is in charge here. You need to get it straight in your own head so you can respond appropriately.

      In most cases, the appropriate response would be along the lines of, “We’re not here to discuss my performance, we’re here to discuss yours” possibly followed by, “No, we won’t be rescheduling to talk about my performance because it is not your job to assess that.”

      I say in most cases because I actually believe that managers should generally be open to – and actively solicit – feedback on how they do their jobs better. However, that would be misunderstood here and isn’t your problem. Your problem is you need to own your responsibility as a manager and actually manage – without regard to the age of your employee.

      Good luck.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Agreed, strongly. Manage her like you would if she were, I don’t know, five years younger than you. And loudly seconding everything here about nipping this in the bud.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      Mutual respect is important, and it doesn’t sound to me like that is the case on either side, here. I’m not sure what you mean by introversion vs. transparency… Does she feel like you don’t communicate with her enough? Or that you hide away and make decisions without consulting her?

      I don’t mean to make generalizations but sometimes older people feel ignored or invisible and your hands-off approach may be contributing to her insecurity. Whether she’s pleasant to be around or not, she’s got so much more experience than you in dealing with all kinds of things. You should bring her into decision-making processes as much as possible. It’s much easier to accept change if you’ve had a say in it.

      When she says she doesn’t think you are a good manager, ask her why. You should solicit honest feedback and really listen because it could help you improve. I mean, maybe she resents you on principle but you shouldn’t assume that. And if she does, there’s really nothing you can do except keep building your management and leadership skills.

    3. Temperance*

      She sounds like a problem employee. Taking her bad temper out on your patrons? Unacceptable.

      I’ve worked with older employees with a chip on their shoulder in the past. It seems like she might be testing the waters to see how much she can get away with, or she just seems to think that because she’s older, she should be in charge.

    4. BRR*

      Well honestly, it doesn’t sounds like you’re a good manager yet (and is anybody one when they start?). But she’s going to be in for a surprise because you’re seeking help now to be a great manager and part of that will be managing her.

      The age thing doesn’t really matter. It might only in that she has more work experience. You need to lay out your expectations for her. It sounds like you want to change/improve things, make sure you let her know she’s expected to adopt these new methods. I would also make her part of the process and not just tell her how things are going to be done. The patrons things is unacceptable. You need to tell her that those patrons are keeping you in business. Addressing her negative attitude not around patrons might be hard as it might just come off as too personal. That one you might want to consider handling as if it was a coworker instead of a direct report since there aren’t other workers else affected.

      And it doesn’t sound like you need to be more transparent, just more direct. Don’t rest on the crutch of saying you’re an introvert. Part of your job is to manager and that involves certain things like keeping this employee in check.

      Also Alison has a book on management (Managing to Change the World: The Nonprofit Manager’s Guide to Getting Results) if you think that would be helpful.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Sounds like she’s mad that they didn’t put her in the manager role.

      Regardless, her age doesn’t matter. Don’t let her bully you. The others have some great suggestions, and I see someone has already referred you to Alison’s book.

  115. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I started a volunteer gig. They asked me to help out with a last-minute item during what they know was my work hours. Fortunately, I wasn’t too busy. So I said yes and did 4-6 paragraphs worth of writing plus finding 10-15 research links. A teapoter there thanked me for my awesome/superb work via email to all other teammates.

    Then, the head of one branch who’s cc’d on the project chews me out b/c head doesn’t like the quote I put in (ie. it quotes a VP whose views are weird). Head said, “wow that’s a weak one (quote).” But, I mean it’s not my fault the VP thinks oddly on teapot handles. Though the source is liked, so I send a whole new set of links, and resend a new quote from the same desired source.

    I’m kind of wondering if they question my competency now :/ I already have a paying position, but in order to progress in my future career path I kind of really need this volunteer gig.

    And then, a carrot handler emails me that even though I sent all transportation receipts, I have to resend all 20 ish of them all over again (even though I already scanned them in order) because there’s just sooooo many of them and a couple overlap. SIIIIIIIGH. Maybe she’s right about scanning but I can’t even. Sometimes. Rgggg.

  116. Vera*

    What is the reason behind NEVER putting an e-mail signature on your e-mails? It drives me crazy when I am looking for someone’s phone number or official title.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think some people feel like it clutters up their emails unnecessarily, if they’re usually emailing internally with people who already have their info. But I agree it can be aggravating.

      FWIW, I don’t put a phone number in my signature because I don’t actually want anyone to call me unless it’s specifically scheduled (which I can get away with in my line of work; it obviously isn’t okay in many others).

    2. fposte*

      Never set it up, never knew how to set it up, overreaction to people who put 25 lines of crap in there.

    3. Turanga Leela*

      Why, have you been trying to reach my boss? I have a short email signature with my phone number; he doesn’t. I get many calls from people asking for his phone number.

    4. AnotherFed*

      On the title, I don’t put that in emails because I have several titles of my own and occasionally am also Acting as someone else’s title. Depending on who I’m dealing with or which hat I’m wearing, it would be confusing or even misleading to sign off with the wrong title.

  117. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

    Vacations: I feel like I don’t deserve to ask for a week off because I’m waaaaaay behind (like, a low-priority project that should have taken me 1 month, still isn’t done after 10 months. Still working on it.) I know my boss is disappointed in me. I’m disappointed in me.

    On all the other high-priority projects though, I’ve done well. In December, boss informed me that I ranked #2 at my company for our main business line (hate that they do ranking btw). So I’m doing ok at other stuff. Just can’t knock this project out.

    My BF wants us to go on vacation (he’s had a super stressful work year that’s just wrapped up now), and I don’t feel like I can ask for time – even if it’s a month or two from now and there aren’t other commitments it would impact — because I feel like I don’t deserve it.

    Am I pretty much correct? Finish this project, maybe bf goes on a solo vacation (we’ve never vacationed together because of work craziness), and once I’m done then I bring it up to my boss? Or is that crazy and I should just ask now, assuming project will be done before then and my boss doesn’t want to withhold vacay from me over this low-priority (but seemingly never-ending) project?

    Background:
    Me: Early 30s. Never ever ever went on vacations growing up; didn’t have the money and family couldn’t get time off to go. Just wasn’t a thing we did = me extra uncomfortable asking for time.

    Company: “No vacation policy, just please give us as much notice as possible (4-6 months).” Unclear if expectation is closer to 2 weeks or 4 weeks (4 weeks apparently more standard in tech/consulting, where I am).

    Coworkers: all take vacation, at least 2 weeks, some take 3 or 4 some years.

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. You don’t go around thinking that you don’t deserve your paycheck or health insurance do you? Vacation is a benefit, and if you don’t take it you are working an extra few weeks for free.

    2. Dawn*

      Take the vacation! Vacation isn’t a “reward”. You don’t need to wear a hair shirt to work every day for a year before feeling like might just have begin to earn the possibility of taking a half day off.

      TAKE THE VACATION! I understand your background with regards to vacation- my dad took ONE day off from work in all of the 40 years he worked there, and that was because he was literally in the hospital. It took me a while to get used to having vacation and being encouraged to use it.

      TAKE THE VACATION!!!!!

    3. ThatGirl*

      You shouldn’t feel bad about taking vacation time. It sounds like you are doing well, overall, on your job – is the low-priority project not being done really your fault? If it’s constantly being pushed aside because of higher impact ones, well, that just happens sometimes. That doesn’t mean you’re bad at your job.

      Seriously, it sounds like you’re just not in the “vacations are for me” mentality, but you deserve one as much as the next person, and they are good for mind, body and soul. If your boss expresses concerns over that project, ask how you can work with boss to get more of it done before you go.

    4. Ad Astra*

      I also came from a family that never went on vacation and feel weird asking for time off, especially for anything that sounds more like a “want” than a “need.” Remind yourself that many people, likely at least some of your coworkers, see vacations as a need, not a want.

      If you’ll be caught up by the time your vacation rolls around, there’s no reason not to ask for the time off as soon as you have the dates in mind. If your boss is really concerned about this project, he might say “Yeah, you can go if you get this thing done.” But even then, it’s about making sure stuff gets done when it needs to be done, not about whether you “deserve” a vacation.

  118. K*

    Have a question to clarify between exempt and non-exempt in the US to something comparable in Canada. I’m a salaried employee, as is everyone in my office. It’s an architecture firm so we bill the time spent working on projects to clients. That means everyone fills out timesheets that must equal 40 hours for the week. If you work over that 40 hours, the extra goes into your personal time. If you have to take an appointment during work, you put the time in your timesheet as personal time. You do not have unlimited personal time. You accrue both personal time and vacation time. In the states it seems like you get paid the same no matter how many hours you work each week.

    1. fposte*

      It is, of course, more complicated than that :-).

      Non-exempt people get paid according to the hours they work, period. That’s the law.

      Exempt people usually get paid the same no matter what, but there are some industries that pay exempt people overtime as well.

      There are some industries that will, as long as the law allows it, bank comp time (Dan, who posts here regularly, seems to be in one and will likely know more about this), but that’s pretty unusual.

  119. Emily*

    I posted sometime in early December about my boyfriend interviewing at a small software company.

    Unfortunately, the hiring process has been slower than the company anticipated, so he’s still waiting for them to make a hiring decision. A previous email said that he was an excellent candidate, and the most recent correspondence said that he was still in good standing (or something to that effect), so he definitely has a shot. But there’s also a good chance that someone slightly better or more experienced came along.

    My fingers are crossed! I know he’ll get a job eventually, but he hasn’t had the most fruitful job search, and this one is convenient in other ways (it’s near my school, so he wouldn’t have to get his own car).

  120. Not Karen*

    Someone I know is finishing up a degree in the same field I’m in. The other day she announces that she’s been keeping an eye out on the careers page at my employer but nothing has become available so she went and got a job somewhere else. This whole time I had been expecting her to ask me about any openings if she had been interested in working here. I’m experiencing surprise and confusion that someone would not take advantage of an inside contact when they could. :/

    1. AnotherFed*

      Unless you’re at a fairly small employer, I wouldn’t expect you to necessarily know about all the postings at your employer or even be able to do any more than direct someone to the website. You also carefully didn’t describe this person as a friend, so it’s also possible she didn’t want to risk imposing on you until/unless she’d seen a posting she’d want to apply for that she’d like your help on.

        1. Tomato Frog*

          Maybe she was waiting for you to offer to keep an eye out for positions for her and didn’t want to presume? Her not asking is not any weirder than your not offering.

          1. asteramella*

            Yes, I’d assume she felt uncertain or awkward about the prospect of asking rather than that she has something against you personally.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Some people need their own turf, or they figure the other person wants their own turf.

      Or, it could be since she saw no openings online she thought that meant there were no openings.

      I would only impose upon friends if I saw something concrete that was a good fit for me. Maybe this is how she likes to handle things, too.

  121. SusanIvanova*

    So, in my very first time as a mentor, I’ve hit the entire gamut of mentor tasks: I’ve helped him learn our code, explained how to handle office politics, and now, thanks to our company laying off our entire team, explained how to survive layoffs (this is Silicon Valley, this is my 4th time. The upside – it’s an employee’s market right now and our team has a fantastic reputation; recruiters are bouncing around like happy puppies).

    But the hard part – I have to write up a recommendation. Never done it before, and he’d only just got his first major project to the point of code review. Which is pretty impressive because this involved dealing with a tangled mess of legacy code and systems more complex than the usual app. He’s good, he picked it up quickly despite the mess.

    How do I phrase this? I’ve seen recs, but only for experienced people so they’re more general “handles X well”. I’ve got one data point, but he’s very promising; I’d love to work with him again – I’ve put all that effort into him and don’t want it to go to waste :)

    1. fposte*

      Outline all the reasons, aside from sunk costs, that make you say you’d love to work with him again. It sounds like that won’t carry the same weight as if you knew his code, but you can’t change that, so just do the best you can.

  122. TheLazyB*

    Interesting article in today’s guardian newspaper about the outgoing Uk Chief Inspector of Prisons. I’ll link in reply to this comment. I thought it particularly interesting given what Alison says about howimportant it is to get out of toxic workplaces.

    2. fposte*

      That’s a twofer, isn’t it? The workplace is a problem, but it’s also a field that’s going to drain you even if your workplace is good.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Yeah, exactly. I think it’s mainly impressive that he’s both recognised it and that he’s acknowledged it.

  123. Big Hair No Heart*

    My manager asked me to do some digging on CRM platforms, but I don’t even know where to start. I’ve never used one before, and I don’t know what they’re capable of or what a good price is. Would anyone be willing to share the CRM software they use and how much they like it?

    Relevant Details:
    -Our office is just 4 people, so it won’t need to be used by a lot of people
    -My manager is super cheap and wouldn’t want anything with too many bells and whistles
    -He primarily wants to use it to group and organize contacts/customers for easier correspondence
    -Right now we don’t have any CRM software, we just input contacts into Microsoft Outlook, and if we need to create a list of people, we create a spreadsheet and upload their info into there

    Thoughts?

  124. just laura*

    Anyone here self-employed and have disability insurance? Wondering if we should spring for it. Thanks!

  125. Sophia Brooks*

    Does anyone know how/if someone can get a drug test and pay for it themselves. I work in higher education (nursing), and some of our clinical sites require us to have the student take a 10 panel drug test. Our school doesn’t require it of all students, so we have no mechanism set up to do it, and also the school will not pay for it. So we can’t send the student to these sites– but they really want to go and are willing to pay for it themselves. Can they just go to their doctor?

    1. fposte*

      I’d guess yes, but that’s a question to take to your clinical sites, I’d say. “Do you accept test results from students’ private physicians? Is there a facility that you usually recommend?” (The second because there may be a cheaper and more effective option that they know about.

    3. DebbieDebbieDebbie*

      In the US there are freestanding and web-based clinics that will provide 5- and 10-panel tests. It is actually a booming business due to the explosion of pain management clinics and the opiate addiction crisis. Some will accept insurance, most would accept self-pay. They are mostly regional companies so it wouldn’t necessarily be helpful to provide links.

  126. KC*

    I just got a job starting Feb 1. When I signed the acceptance letter, my wage is $30/hour.

    Today they called me and said HR made a mistake, and it’s $22/hour, with 10% increases every year til $30.

    Urgh, I know my options are limited, but do you think there’s something I can do? It’s not an at-will position, but a union position. But that doesn’t kick in until 60 days.

      1. KC*

        I was unemployed, but I wouldn’t accept the job at this rate. I’m doing at least 3 person’s job in a similar company.

        Additionally I just signed a new, more expensive lease to move closer to my job, and now I feel I’m kinda screwed. :(

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          How about negotiating — you can say, “I wouldn’t have been able to accept the job at that rate of pay, and I curtailed my conversations with other employers after accepting the salary that was in the offer letter, as well as just changed my housing for the job. What can we do here?”

      2. KC*

        If the acceptance letter says $30/hour and that is a contract, do I have any legal claim against them?

        1. fposte*

          The acceptance letter isn’t likely to be a contract. However, if it does, the legal claim isn’t going to get you hired; it might get you some help on the relocation expenses if your cause is detrimental reliance. But you might get that if you ask for it and it won’t burn your bridges and take up your time the way suing the company would.

    2. Meg Murry*

      Did they give you a rate when you interviewed, or was it not disclosed or just a range ($22-$30)?

      Is there a salary scale for different rates depending on years of experience or degree? Can you make the argument that you should start at Step [3] because you have X years of experience instead of Step 0? Or that the job duties are Level II, not Level I?

      Do you think they will negotiate at all? Or is it pretty much $22, take it or leave it? Can you afford to walk away if you try to negotiate and they won’t budge? Or did you give notice to take this position?

      Otherwise, I don’t know what you can do, but man, that sucks.

      1. KC*

        They told me it’s $30.

        This rate is set/negotiated with the union. It is the rate for people new to the union in this city. Only people with 20 years with the union gets $30. So I don’t know how they can make this mistake.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ah, that makes it harder for them to do the right thing; their hands really may be tied. I’d still use the language I suggested above, but if they can’t budge and you wouldn’t have taken the job at this rate initially, don’t be forced into it now.

          You may be able to get out of your lease by explaining that the job offer fell through. (They probably won’t be excited to have a new tenant who doesn’t have a job, so that could actually work to your advantage.)

        2. Meg Murry*

          I don’t think that math makes sense though, because 10% increases per year takes someone from $22 to over $30 in 5 years. Unless that’s a maximum possible increase of 10% per year.

          Can you call the union directly? Are you a member of the same ABCDEFG union (or were you in a previous job) but in a different city?

          And again on the “that sucks!” And how did they interview and send out an offer letter that was flat out wrong? That doesn’t bode well for their HR department not screwing up other things.

          Any chance you could negotiate some kind of hiring bonus or bonus for after 60 days of work completed?

          If you are otherwise unemployed I might take it and keep job searching – I’m pretty sure “I was told 3 days before my start date that the pay rate on my offer letter was wrong and I would be making only 75% of the originally offered pay but I couldn’t afford to be unemployed anymore” would be a perfectly reasonable answer to “why are you job searching after only being at your new job a few weeks?”

          1. KC*

            Basically, I’ll get the $30 rate in about 3-4 years. But people with 20 years in the union gets the $30 rate immediately when they join. I was never in a union and this is my first. Some of their policies are still very new to me.

            Nonetheless, it’s still quite a hefty mistake, and a pretty shitty way to start a professional relationship with the company. So hopefully I can negotiate some sign-in bonus or compromise. Wish me luck!

            1. BRR*

              It is shitty and I suggest Alison’s language even though its going to be rigid. I might also gently pry into how this happened because it might be a warning sign.

  127. OriginalEmma*

    Another great article, this time from The Atlantic, on the disproportionate impact of emotional labor on women. I’ll link in a following comment.

    I wish the article explored the question of whether the defiance of gendered expectations led to repercussions, for example, of fewer work opportunities for the paralegals who weren’t appropriately deferential, increased performance warnings for the flight attendants that weren’t “nice” enough, or lowered tips for female waitresses who weren’t pleasant enough.

    2. fposte*

      Though tips are also inclined to be commercial attractiveness bonuses, which is another horrible dimension, so I suspect the absence of perceived niceness in waitstaff has a disproportionately meted out penalty as well.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yepppp.

        I think I’ve said this before, but it was also a skirt-wearing bonus in my case. (I was much younger at the time. I may well have had nice legs, who knows.) I got tipped way better when I wore a skirt, and that always made me go ewwww. My mom said skirts just looked more respectful to people, but this was a really informal place where pants weren’t out of place at all, and it was the 90s, not the 50s…I think people were just pervs.

  128. Nice guys finish last*

    I need tips on managing up.
    I adore my job and the people who report to me. I get along fine with my boss, who is a nice guy. But in our organization, the funding goes to the units that have bosses who get out and network and schmooze. Nice guy boss would rather kibbutz with his reports (or reports-to-his-reports) and play games on his computer. He and I have had long, interesting conversations about future challenges for our unit and strategies to get ahead of them. I’m always pushing for face time and relationship building with the finance types, and he nods and agrees. And then he very rarely follows through.
    We were able to coast by for a few years but now our organization is tightening the belt and we really need him to go shake the money tree! His inactivity is hurting morale in my department and others, and I’m not even sure how to handle it when my reports ask, “What is it that Nice Guy Boss does all day, anyway?”

    Nice Guy Boss’s boss couldn’t care less- after all, this is one less unit asking for stuff! So it’s up to me and my peers. Any ideas?

    1. fposte*

      Ask if you can go instead. And look for other job possibilities, maybe within this organization, since you’re interested in it and you sound like a go-getter, if you’ll pardon the mid-century modern phraseology.

      In other words, find possibilities that don’t include changing him, because that’s not likely to happen.

  129. Cheesecake2.0*

    Any tips about training/being a new managr? I was abruptly given our new temp to train and supervise. She’s only been here 2 days, so we’re still doing the official setting up stuff, but I’ve never trained anyone before. It’s up to me to pick which tasks she works on and everything, and I find myself having trouble deciding what to give her because we KNOW she’s temp, she’s going off to med school, so I don’t want to train her to do anything too complicated or critical, ya know?

    1. Graciosa*

      You need to think about this not from a perspective of wasting your time (not wanting to train her on anything complicated because she’s leaving) but as a productivity tool.

      You have a limited amount of time with her; what can you have her do that will make the biggest contribution in that time frame?

      It could be training her on one very complicated task that is enormously time consuming, so that she can do all of them for a while and free up time for the permanent staff to work on a major improvement project they never have time for.

      It could be training her on a number of very simple tasks that she can quickly begin to churn through (thus freeing up time …).

      But think about getting the most production you can from this resource.

  130. AnonyLlama*

    I have this strange problem. In the cold winter months, I tend to form a strange health symptom at work; the funny thing is that the symptom clears up within a half-hour of me leaving. It can develop between an hour to a couple of hours of being in the job on any given day. Like I said, it has to be in the cold winter months; I don’t get it in the warm spring, summer, and fall months.

    Initially, a few I’ve shared this with thought it was psychosomatic; I want out of this job, but since I feel that way year round why am I only developing this in the winter? Could I be allergic to what I handle at my job? Finally, my parents asked my dad’s doctor randomly the other day at an appointment to see if he’d know just off-hand – having never seen me or know anything about my medical history. He suggested it could be something in the building – maybe dust in the heating ducts, mold growing somewhere, etc. Well, my job has drop ceiling tiles, and many of them are affected by leaks; they have brown spots. Most of the browns (which I counted more than 20) are larger than my fist. Two of the biggest spots look as if the brown stain is caked on; it’s going to become moldy if it hasn’t already.

    I’m wondering if I’m reacting to this. If so, how do I proceed? The symptom I get is quite uncomfortable and can affect my work. The leaks have been there for as long as I can tell, and it doesn’t appear anyone is doing anything for it (the building has a flat roof so I can understand that it is probably a never-ending battle. Do I say something to the business owners (who don’t own the building) or is this an OSHA thing?

    1. fposte*

      The brown stains are just mineral from heat-pipe sweat; they’re by no means automatically going to get moldy, and those ceiling tiles dry out fast.

      That doesn’t mean you’re not having some kind of allergy thing, but I think the first step is for you to go to a doctor about your symptom yourself; you really can’t ask your workplace to take action based on something a doctor who isn’t yours has surmised.

      1. AnonyLlama*

        Here they are from roof leaking. I have seen in other places these types of tiles develop mold (actually turn green and black). The roof is flat, and in a bad rain storm back in the fall, it practically rained inside the building. The two worst spots are well on their way.

        1. fposte*

          But you haven’t seen that in *this* place, and you still haven’t seen a doctor about your health problem. Go see a doctor and go from there.

    2. Searching*

      My mom has asthma and a couple of years ago she started having severe reactions to the chemical her company was using for salt in the winter. Carpets cleaned regularly and the problem went away.

    3. Not Karen*

      Not sure how to proceed, but if it helps I went through a similar experience with finding myself unable to wear contacts in an office building for more than a day or two in a row. One eye doctor claimed it was because I was at the computer all day, but I knew that couldn’t be it as I spent hours at the computer at home, too, and am fine there. Took YEARS for an eye doctor to tell me that my eyes were drying out because office buildings are kept at extremely low humidity in order to avoid mold.

      1. Cat like that*

        Wow, you may have just solved a problem I’ve been trying to figure out for 5 years! I cannot wear contacts continuously at work without my eyes starting to burn and water, but am fine at home on the weekends. I guess I’ll just have to keep up the nerd chic look at the office.

  131. InterviewHell*

    HR performed bordom during my interview

    Yesterday, I interviewed with a three-person panel for a communications job at a nonprofit that’s an extension of the government. It started 10 minutes late, even after the receptionist called to confirm they knew I was signed in and ready.

    A list of 14 general questions printed out on paper comprised the bulk of the nearly hour-long interview. The interviewers each took a turn asking me a question, scribbling down their responses, and then having the next person ask. On more than one occasion, they forgot who was next.

    While I answered the questions without issue and even managed to namedrop and earn friendly recognition from the panel, the problems began when I began to ask some of my questions about the position. The HR representative physically moved away from the table and began to click her pen nonstop as I queried the hiring managers. She also made a point of openly staring at me with impatience when I smiled and nodded at the interviewer’s answers.

    The meeting ended in a rush with the two hiring managers each shaking my hand and thanking me for coming; meanwhile, HR rushed me out without even saying good-bye or discussing next steps.

    Can someone please tell me what happened?

    1. fposte*

      The printed out questions sounds pretty standard for a lot of government jobs; we’re state and we have to do that. And when you do that, you are always going to encounter times where we’re not sure who goes next–panelists get different questions depending on who’s available for that particular interview, and we don’t rehearse beforehand. So I really wouldn’t worry about that one.

      If HR was the only person to get weird about your asking questions, the weirdness might not matter much; I’m also wondering if this was less about content than about time, and if she had scheduled something else closer than she ought to have.

      1. InterviewHell*

        fposte,

        Thanks for your response.

        In hindsight, I can spot several telltale signs of a rushed interview.

        The very friendly receptionist informed during the long wait that another team was hosting interviews as well that morning.

        It’s most likely that the scheduling was tighter than she expected, and nothing was seriously wrong with my interview.

        Again, I appreciate your help!

        1. fposte*

          Ah, that makes sense. I’m sorry that that marred what sounds like was otherwise an interview with some promising elements, and I hope it turns out well for you.

          1. fposte*

            Oh, and one more thing, because I’m turning into Columbo these days and always have one more thing: I should have said clearly that HR handled that situation poorly. If she’s got a rush, squirming during your interview isn’t the way to deal with it–just say “I’m afraid we have less time than we’d hoped, but we do have time for a few questions, and then I’ll have to get to my next appointment at 3.” Otherwise the interviewee wonders if it’s them, and that’s not fair.

    2. dear liza dear liza*

      It sounds like HR rep’s mind was somewhere else, and as if HR needed to be at that somewhere else. (I’m picturing HR being late to your interview because of another meeting that went long, which now means your interview is going to push HR further off schedule, and now there’s a meeting after yours that HR really doesn’t want to be late to.) I’d try not to take it personally!

    3. SusanIvanova*

      You’ve found the company that was the model for Office Space? They’ve got someone they want but have to go through the formalities of interviewing other people, so they’re trying to drive you away on purpose? They *aren’t*, but they’re just that incompetent?

    4. LCL*

      You applied for a government job. All of the questions were vetted by HR and provided to the panelists, who didn’t see them before the interviews. And the panelists weren’t allowed to go outside the approved list. The HR person wants to minimize the questions from the interviewee because you might ask a question the panelists weren’t qualified to promise or answer. Or possibly say something that you would try use as evidence of discrimination.

  132. Job Seeker*

    Several months ago I had a second job interview where two people were present: the hiring manager and the manager of an office with a close working relationship to the vacant position. After a couple of months of hearing nothing I was notified I didn’t receive the position, but the reason I didn’t receive a standard “Thank you for your interest…” email was that the manager of the second office wanted to know if I would be interested in being considered for a vacancy in the second office. At the time I was contacted HR didn’t know when (or presumably if) the job would be posted.

    I’m wondering if it is a mistake to contact HR to see if they have any update (it has been about six weeks since my conversation with HR). My gut tells me this is largely a pointless exercise. Yes, it might be nice to know if they have decided not to fill the vacancy (that way I could at least stop checking their website far more frequently than I need to) but ultimately making contact won’t change much. They either will post a vacancy or they won’t. I can signal my continued interest with another application.

    If you do think I should contact them would you recommend by email (easy to ignore) or by phone (more intrusive)?

    1. fposte*

      Email. If they ignore it it’s because they don’t have anything to say that you want to hear anyway. Phone would be weird.

      And I think it’s okay to do a six-week followup–you can note that you’re still interested in the possibility of this position, and is there any indication of a time frame? And if they don’t answer, forget it.

  133. Regina 2*

    This one’s for Wakeen from last week – I’m looking to figure out my new digital marketing role in a challenging environment. The team keeps asking me to “generate more leads” and so I’m working with a vendor on paid search. However, we can’t create landing pages, which is the vendor’s number one recommendation to increase conversion. We can’t use forms from my automation platform because the CRM team wants to use one specific form they have, which requires web developer assistance to create. We have no web developer on staff.

    All the while, the lead gen goal is to increase our lead count by 4x than we’ve ever seen. :-| No one will say this is unreasonable. I have trouble saying it myself, but that’s primarily because my boss never supports me when I advise something, so I’ve given up and just say yes to everything now.

    Ideally, what could I do to learn? I don’t know how I could learn AdWords if I wasn’t directly working on a campaign myself. I don’t really understand how to build a digital marketing mix, and I definitely don’t understand it in a luxury space. Lastly, as I alluded to above, we are handicapped by several major resource and technical issues. Whenever I look online to learn, I realize – nope, can’t do that. If I had better experience in a more typical environment, I’d have the knowledge to get creative. But learning in this place is really challenging.

    Any thoughts? As I’ve said, I’ve already tried webinars from several online sources, including Moz, Google Analytics, and HubSpot. Feel no more informed than before.

    Sorry if this is too much. Won’t be offended if it’s too detailed to assist with. :-)

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      You’re in my geek wheelhouse. I do our SEM/Google Adwords personally, because I’m like that.

      If I don’t respond today, I’ll respond tomorrow. But probably today.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      I don’t know how to pull the train you’re riding back from it’s destination to Crazy Town station, so I’ll ignore that mostly. A digital strategy needs a digital strategy, from management, with budgets, resources and employees. But, I’ll ignore that mostly because I don’t know how to sort the management mess you’ve got going on there.

      I LOVE running google ad campaigns. It’s very challenging, personally rewarding and roller coaster ride thrilling. In my teapot world it’s high stakes gambling as I’m playing in territories where I’m paying multi dollars a click and managing a budget just shy of half a million dollars.

      I HATE running google ad campaigns because, in lead gen, measuring success precisely is impossible. I have to combine one bazillion pieces of online and offline data together to flesh out a picture of how we are doing on return for dollar, and, with our purchasing cycle what it is, I’m spending money now (watch it pour out) that will only have (somewhat) measurable results down the road. I lost so many nights of sleep in the run up to the last holiday while I was burning 20K a week on a specific campaign and praying to Google Gods that it was going to pay off.

      I taught myself how to do google adwords back in 2007 when I launched my first campaign with a couple thousand bucks. I don’t personally know how anyone learns without fingers on the keyboard but, I’m like that. That’s how I learn. I push buttons, see what happens, clean up the mess when it blows. I google things when I have questions. I read a lot of google’s help pages. I’ve never watched a webinar in my life. People talk too slowly!

      The single most important thing to have is intimate knowledge of Google Analytics. This is the base of what you need for everything these batshit crazy management people are asking you to do.

      Before I can see any $$ results from an ad campaign, I can tell “how it’s doing” by bounce and page per views. Those are the two metrics that I’ve found correlate to later success so they are my religion. There’s nuance to interpretation: a higher bounce campaign might still be fine, but the first place you are going to look is under your matched keywords (in analytics) to see what search matches the campaign is drawing.

      Example: when I do our health related campaigns, I have to negative keyword the shit out of doctor terms like “seuss” “who” “oz” etc. etc. etc. or google is broad matching me to all kinds of crap I don’t want. I pay for a ton of worthless clicks, get a high bounce but then dig under and find out why it’s happening and fix it.

      Now, you have an outside vendor. I don’t think much at all of outside vendors for Google Ads, I think most of them are hacks, but what are you going to do? This is an intense job that you CERTAINLY don’t have time for in addition to the other stuff that the Crazy Town conductor is asking you to do, so hopefully the vendor was well vetted and is well intended. What you should do though, is watch your campaigns in Analytics yourself so you can see if they are taking you for a ride because these vendors will lie through their teeth and present all kinds of reports with manipulated stats, unless you have one of the good guys.

      Landing pages? I can’t even. OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL LANDING PAGES FOR BEST CONVERSION. I can’t even even. Even I can’t.

      I guess what you do is make a plan for how all ya’ll will be able to meet that goal of 4x lead generation and yes, being able to create your own landing pages is on it.

      If you want to drop an email address in your reply, I’ll give you a shout out this weekend. Otherwise, I’ll check back and we can talk more here.

  134. LBK*

    SOS! Anyone have tips for interviewing candidates for a peer position? I just found out I’m going to be conducting one-on-one interviews on Monday with candidates to fill the open role on my team (the person would basically be doing the same job as me and we’d be flat on the hierarchy). I’ve never interviewed anyone solo and have only sat in on a handful of interviews conducted by others, so I’m feeling a bit out at sea.

    I talked to my manager and he said he doesn’t have specific expectations for me in these interviews – he mostly wants me to make sure I’ll get along with the person since I’d be working closely with them and informally overseeing their work since I’m the most tenured person in the department (including my manager, who just started at the company last week).

    Anyone have advice for not-too-formal questions or approaches that will still glean useful information about fit and competence? Frankly, my #1 criterion for getting along with a coworker is that they’re good at their job, so determining fit for me is pretty much equivalent to determining competence. I skimmed the archives for posts on the subject but they’re mostly geared towards interviewees – if anyone can think of good letters that would have info on this, links to those would also be greatly appreciated.

    2. fposte*

      Alison’s got a link to the Management Center’s interview guidelines above–have a look at those. I’m not sure of why you’re resisting formality here, but I’ll push back on that resistance–this is a real interview and should be treated as such whether you’re a manager or a peer. I get the desire not to look like you think they’re better than they are when they might be working alongside you, but formality isn’t what makes that happen. What will make that happen is if you underinterview and then they suck, and you have to tell them so :-(. And it’s fine if you want to address that outright: “I’ll be working alongside this person, but we’re still following our usual interview format because it’s the best way we know to get information about how candidates work.”

      I think behavioral “Tell me about a time” questions are especially useful in a situation like this, because you will e the one sitting next to them during their next “a time.”

      1. LBK*

        I guess “informal” isn’t really what I meant, in the sense that I’m still planning to ask specific questions and probe for details and such, not just chat. What I mean is that I want to conduct the interview the way I would talk to them while we’re working together (professionally but not stuffy). I also don’t want it to be overly structured – I’d like to have just a few leading questions and then have the majority of the conversation flow organically based on their answers. Now that I’m saying this, I guess this is how most of my interviews with managers have gone anyway, although I think I’m probably more laid back than the average interviewee.

        Team problem solving is a huge aspect of the job – I probably spend half my day bouncing ideas off my coworkers or acting as a sounding board, so “tell me about a time” questions are definitely a good tool for that. Being able to summarize complex ideas and translate them to be appropriate for your audience on the fly is also extremely important. I’m thinking of asking something like “think of the most complicated problem you’ve ever had to solve and explain it to me as concisely as you can.” Still mulling over the phrasing on that one, though, since I don’t love it as-is.

  135. So Very Anonymous*

    Just a vent — my building has now had four armed robberies in the last month (and the building shuts down for two weeks for winter break, which changes the frequency a little). This is at a university, and it’s students being robbed. Everyone is really on edge, and while it’s sort of interesting to see how different people respond to this kind of situation, the general tension resulting from this just keeping on happening is getting wearing.

  136. Searching*

    A couple of months ago I was interviewing for a different job. I’m happy at my current job but it seemed like a good opportunity. The company had warned me up front that their process was lengthy and on a rolling deadline (a small firm that was constantly recruiting). I did two writing tests for them and two rounds of interviews that I thought went very well. I have two+ years of relevant experience, more than they asked for for the job. After the 2nd interview, they informed me they would let me know “soon.” By the end of the week, two out of three of my references let me know that they had contacted them. In addition to a thank you after the interview, I checked in the next week with a gentle followup email. No response at all. They didn’t get back to me at all until two weeks later with a rejection. I was a little surprised (well, not after there was radio silence for two weeks after my followup email, but before) because I had thought that if a company is checking your references, you’re on the final step? I know my references generally pan out (or I wouldn’t have asked them.) Am I right in thinking its weird to check someone’s (good) references and then hire someone else? All this has put me off applying again to the company, even though their ads for the same position are consistently being reposted.

    1. fposte*

      We check references on all finalists, not just the leading candidate. I think that’s pretty common. So not weird to me. A month after the interview doesn’t seem out of line to me for letting you know, either, but then I’m at a state university, so double whammy.

      So unless there’s something else, I’d say they’re behaving reasonably well and it’s just a bummer that you got excited and they went with somebody else. My sympathies, because that’s always a blow.

      1. Searching*

        Ok, that makes sense. Its just that every company I have been involved in the hiring process with only checks the final candidate’s references. But good to know.
        What do you think about reapplying in the future? The company posts the same job every couple months, as they have a rolling recruitment process- which, again strikes me as a little strange, but I am admittedly not used to the private sector like this consulting firm is. If new positions are opening, wouldn’t it make sense for them to go back to finalists from previous rounds? If I didn’t make the cut the first time, but could reasonably conclude that I was a finalist, should I not apply again? It was such a long process with the writing tests etc that I am reluctant to start at the beginning again.

        1. fposte*

          I would bet that if they’re constantly recruiting they expect people to re-apply, so I wouldn’t expect to be considered again unless I submitted a new application.

          That being said, you could drop a note to whoever your contact was, saying “I note that you have openings for this position again, and I’m still interested in it. Do you prefer a fresh application for a situation like this, or would you simply move my prior application forward to this new cycle?”

          Here’s the tricky bit: “No, we’re fine with your old application” means either “You’re in consideration without doing a new application” or “You’re not going to be in consideration either way.” It’s going to be near-impossible to get them to tell you which one it is, but it at least saves you the trouble of a big reapplication if you have no chance.

  137. root veg*

    this is relevant to the “bad boss or deliberate saboteur” post today! in this case, i think it’s the latter.

    i’m spending the vast majority of my time (~80%) on something way outside of my job description, using expertise picked up elsewhere. my manager listed me as owning this work on the doc w/our company-wide goals for the quarter, and at a meeting a few weeks ago, suggested a more formal role for me based on this work.

    after a glowing review, i scheduled a follow-up meeting to talk about a title change and responsibilities for this quarter – i sent her an email ahead of time to tell her what i wanted to talk about, and that i would prepare a breakdown of my time (she agreed that this would be a good idea). given that we’ve had a good relationship, and have had conversations about this before, i thought it would be a good meeting, even if i didn’t get the outcome i wanted.

    WRONG. she was hostile in the meeting (i noticed that her demeanor was strange when i walked in), bluntly asked me what it was that i wanted, berated me for not coming with a title and a job description (i’d prepared a title that she didn’t like, and a list of current responsibilities as we’d discussed, but ok…). then, she said that she didn’t know if the company needed that work, but she would only have time to review it w/the CEO if i wrote something up… and that if it was something they needed on an ongoing basis, she would open the opportunity up to all staff. note, this is work that i’ve been doing alone, almost full time for the past three months, based on a pretty major gap.

    then yesterday, she asked me to train another colleague on the work i’ve been doing ASAP, and effective immediately, is having me divide all of my responsibilities with that colleague . she sent us both an email with the responsibilities that i’d written up (in italics, she wrote that she wants us both to work on it because it isn’t a “one woman job”).

    any advice? i don’t know if there’s anything i can do about this, other than seeking new opportunities.

    1. Kelly L.*

      Did…she have an encounter with the Men in Black and their flash-thingy in the meantime? I got nuthin’.

    2. LBK*

      My only guess is that maybe someone above her decided this was how it had to be done (divvying up the work, opening the role up to everyone to apply) and now she’s feeling embarrassed that her plan was squashed after she already implied it was a done deal to you. Sometimes frustration about being overruled can manifest as this kind of shiftiness because she doesn’t want to admit that she didn’t have the authority to promise what she had promised.

      1. root veg*

        i can’t figure it out! my only thought is that she dangled an expanded role *someday* to keep me involved and doing extra work (e.g. developing important protocols, training staff, etc.), but is trying to put me in my place, so to speak.

  138. Ern*

    So this has been my afternoon and I figured I’d just throw this out on the thread. I’m in the middle of a hiring process for a possible new job. I had a phone screen that went great and they were really enthusiastic about having me in to interview. They also are requiring that I do a data and a writing assessment before my in person interview. They asked me for a time during business hours and so I gave them a time: 2 pm EST today and they replied with a confirmation and the hr rep said she would forward me the materials at that time. It’s timed, so I figured even over email, the time would be monitored. So I set up to be ready at 2 (I had the afternoon off of my regular job bc of comp time from a meeting earlier in the week (I’m non-exempt)). I sat at my computer. And waited. I’m still waiting. It’s not 3:30 (it was a 1.5 hour test, so I’ve reached the point that it would be over). I sent an email to the hr rep at 2:20 checking in and haven’t heard anything back. My concerns are 2: 1) I do have things to do this afternoon-if I hear later today, is it okay to reply that I had to move onto? 2) I realized not long ago that I do have the hr rep’s phone number from the very first email she sent a few weeks ago, I had initially thought that I didn’t have it, otherwise I would have called. I don’t want to be overly demanding and, luckily, I will have enough time in my schedule next week before my interview to do the test then, I’m just unsure if the email was enough? Anyway, advice would be hugely appreciated :) happy friday!!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Email them now and say, “I’m guessing a schedule conflict came up on your end. I know you wanted me to complete this before my interview on (day), so I’ll wait to hear from you about rescheduling. Looking forward to it!” Then unchain yourself from your computer and resume your day!

      1. Ern*

        I was just in the midst of the reply and stuck on finding language that couldn’t be construed as accusatory or judgmental so this is great! (To clarify, I totally understand that something may have come up and do not want her to think that I’m upset. Honestly, I’m tired from a hectic week and this gave me more time to prep and rest!)

  139. SoCal Kate*

    Should I mention the number of hours per week for a volunteer position on my resume?

    For context, I’m looking for administrative assistant positions, and I’m volunteering 4 hours a week at ABC Non-Profit, and about 4 hours a month at Local Literacy. But right now I don’t have the number of hours anywhere on my resume. I’m not sure if that’s necessary information, and if so, how I should put it.

    Maybe:

    Administrative Assistant (4 hours per week), ABC Non-Profit
    -description
    -description

    Administrative Assistant (4 hours per month), Local Literacy
    -description
    -description

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think it’ll help, and it looks a little odd to me–let your achievements speak for themselves.

    2. Susan*

      I’d probably put it in, if only because I suspect 4hrs per month is probably less than one would assume if not specified, so when it comes up later it might be considered deceptive. The format looks good to me, but take everything with a grain of I’ve-never-hired. :)

    3. Graciosa*

      I wouldn’t mention the hours at all – it adds nothing to your candidacy. The important part is to show what you accomplished in the role (streamlined a process to go 20% faster, increased donations by $Y, etc.).

      If you have accomplishments you can share, great. If you don’t, you can’t demonstrate you did anything more than put some time in (and candidly, not all that much compared to the demands of a full time job, although I’m sure it was appreciated). For a job, just showing up is certainly better than not showing up, but it’s not enough to make me want to hire you.

      The format you’re showing in the question would be devoting *way* too much space to this to impress me as a hiring manager.

      1. SoCal Kate*

        I’ll leave it off and just keep it to accomplishments, I think.

        I don’t know that I would generally put volunteer work like this on my resume, but I’m currently unemployed and hoping that it will show that I’m keeping up my skills.

  140. Susan*

    Ridiculously specific dress-code navigation question:

    I’m currently interviewing for a consultant position where work is split about 2:1 between office (fairly relaxed business casual) and on-site with clients (business professional), and for the first interview I erred on the side of pantsuit. My interviewer (director of the BU) showed up in slacks and a moderately dressy shirt (sans tie).

    Now, next round (yay me) is going to involve one of the senior consultants, and possibly a cameo from the client who’d be my primary assignment.

    Can I take the formality down a notch? *Should* I? I have unfortunately zero experience regarding professional norms in this field. :/

    2. Graciosa*

      If they’re not messaging you to change, don’t.

      I did have my boss’ boss at an early job ask my boss if I was aware that we could dress casually on Fridays. When he told me, this was my cue to tone it down.

      At my current employer, I had a senior VP I was meeting regularly tell me more than once that I should not dress up to meet with her and needed to be more casual. When I took the hint and came to a meeting in jeans, she practically cheered (and then stopped commenting on my clothes!).

      If you need to be more casual (usually post hire) someone will tell you, but don’t ever assume in this direction unless you own the company. ;-)

  141. Dynamic Beige*

    It’s late in the day but if anyone is still reading… does anyone know someone who works as a stock photographer? I am not looking to become one, but I wanted to ask some questions about what that’s like because there’s a lot about the stock sites that I just don’t understand.

  142. Dynamic Beige*

    I may have to repost this next week, if I can remember when the Open thread is uh… open ;)

    I was listening to a panel of people talking about hiring this week on a webcast. They took questions before, so people who tuned in just watched. Unfortunately, I cannot say who the participants were as it was a closed session.

    Anyway, one of the panelists commented that they will intentionally leave an interviewee to wait 10 minutes, sometimes walking by them without acknowledging them. Their reasoning was that they wanted to see if it would provoke a reaction.

    Having been here for a few months, I’ve seen stories and comments from both sides of this (we were running late and the interviewee was angry by the time we were able to see them/I had to take PTO off of work in order to come to the interview and they were running late which was impacting my ability to get back to work on time and I was getting upset). But it got me to thinking: is this a somewhat standard practice? Or if not, how common is it for employers to play mind/power games with people they’re interviewing? Does anyone work at a company that currently has some sort of invisible S-test an interviewee must pass in order to be considered?

    I was discussing it later with a friend who also watched the webcast and they were not impressed by the tactic. I wasn’t either, but people are going to do what they’re going to do. At least I know to look out for that now.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        That was my friend’s opinion. Given the amount of truly bizarre interview stories that get posted here, I just wasn’t sure if there wasn’t some sort of “21 Interviewing Hacks You’ve Just Got to Try” thing going on. Someone’s always publishing some X# of Hacks story.

        There was another person who was mentioned — I saw him speak in person. His self-described most recent hiring process was so egregious that I sat in the audience thinking “this guy is a loon and if that’s how he treats someone who is looking for a job, I wouldn’t want to work for him in any capacity” as he talked about some of the stuff he did to “test” the applicant — all in the name of “how do you handle a crazy customer?” I was appalled.

    2. Graciosa*

      This is absolutely not a common practice, and this hiring manager is a jerk.

      My goal in interviewing is to hire someone who is genuinely a good fit – who will perform well and be happy in the position (hopefully moving on within the company to perform well in higher level positions).

      As a manager, I want my team to function as effectively as possible. This means we are direct and honest about any issues without wasting time playing games (and yes, this kind of stuff really is a waste of time). This requires a good level of trust in addition to clear communication.

      There is nothing in this interview tactic that supports these goals, and it actually works against them.

    3. Brett*

      Sounds like it is more about enforcing a power dynamic than “provoking a reaction”. This sets an upfront assumption that the interview is one-way. Only the company is evaluating the interviewee and not the other way around.
      If the interviewee is a top candidate who also needs to be convinced to take the job if offered, this type of behavior could easily hurt the company’s chance of landing that candidate.

    4. LBK*

      I think this is probably as uncommon and stupid as the guy who promoted intentionally showing up late as a candidate to see how the interviewer would react. What’s really weird to me is that the most charitable reading of the situation is that there’s some emergency that’s taking precedence over showing up to the interview on time. That’s not an impression I’d want to give a candidate unless juggling high-priority urgent items is actually part of the job. I wouldn’t blame most good candidates from self-selecting out of a culture that seems to be putting out fires all day.

  143. NonTechnicalITManager*

    Any advice on a situation I’m having?

    We are a smallish organization. I have been given the task of supervising our one IT person. I am most definitely NOT an IT person. So, our IT person works very independently. There’s a large workload there that the person does a decent job of keeping on top of. There is quite a bit of troubleshooting/problem resolution that has to be coordinated with outside software vendors. So, the IT person will start the resolution with the vendor and then have to wait on that vendor to follow up or complete.

    We’ve recently had some issues with internal communication. The situations that I’m hearing about are, “I asked IT person the status of xyz and haven’t heard anything.”

    I’m wondering how best to bring it up with the employee and how to suggest improvements. We’re not going to invest in some sort of case management tracker system. What really needs to happen, in my opinion, is that IT person just needs to get very organized with running lists and provide feedback at reasonable intervals (even if that feedback is, “Still working on this unresolved issue.”) I’m a very meticulous organized person, though, and I realize not everyone would create the same system I would.

    How can I help IT person find a system that works with their style and also keeps everyone up-to-date and reduces frustration?

    1. Susan*

      Maybe I’m misunderstanding the problem, but I can’t really imagine that regular unprompted ‘all quiet on the western front’ messages would be beneficial to anyone (more like a time suck for the IT person and clogging up everyone else’s inboxes).

      If the issue is that someone specifically requested an update and didn’t get it, why not start there? Maybe the IT person feels awkward about replying without actual progress, and only needs a quick explanation about priorities in this context.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s a large workload and a single IT person — she probably does need a ticketing system or some kind of task management system. It doesn’t have to be pricey or complicated (hell, depending on her skill set, she might be able to create it herself), but I don’t know any IT people who’d want to support a whole organization without a ticketing system or something similar!

    3. katamia*

      I don’t think that you intended anything mean or condescending by this, but a lot of people who aren’t classically “organized” (in the sense that we don’t do lists or file everything away immediately and may come off as messy) tend to bristle when a self-described person offers to “help us get organized.” We often hear this in the context of “Oh, your life would just be BETTER if you did things my way,” and that can sometimes cause us to tune out even when people are genuinely trying to be helpful (which I think you are). So I think tone is going to be really important here.

      Instead of focusing on getting this person to be more organized, I think you should focus on specific, concrete solutions to specific problems rather than a Theory of Organization. Sit down with IT person with a list of the most significant problems (given in advance so they have time to think up their own solutions, although you should have suggestions of your own), talk them through, and get IT person to agree to try A, B, and/or C (preferably solutions they’ve come up with if they’ve come up with reasonable ones). Also bear in mind that change doesn’t happen overnight–that first list should be short to increase the likelihood of IT person forming successful habits; it’s really hard to change everything overnight.

      One thing I do (I actually mentioned this above in response to someone else) is I schedule reminder emails. Mine are usually pretty simple, like I have “Send invoice” marked on my calendar to remind me to send in my invoices when they’re due; even though I know that they’re due on the 1st and 15th of the month, sometimes I forget without these emails. I don’t know if that’s something IT person might be interested in, but it helps keep me on track when I have a bunch of weird little chores I have to get done.

      Also, make sure that you and the IT person agree on what constitutes a reasonable amount of time to get back to someone/give someone a status update, and maybe add something to the effect of “Please do not ask for a status update before X hours/days” (but worded better) somewhere to help manage people’s expectations. I’m thinking of the letter the other day where people were calling the OP, not getting a response, and then calling the boss less than an hour later and complaining that they couldn’t get in touch with OP–definitely UNreasonable expectations there.

    4. LCL*

      One IT person? It sounds like they are working at full capacity doing their IT job. If you expect them to come up with anything outside of what they are doing, they won’t have the time to do it. And coming up with a new organizational system is an additional task. Sure, your next step is to talk to the IT person and ask what would help them stay on top of the communication. But don’t be surprised when they tell you nothing will help except hiring another person, or moving some duties to someone else.

    5. BRR*

      I’m curious if it’s a possibility that the employees don’t really need to be asking about the status? I don’t think this overburdened person should have to give “no new information” updates if that’s not how they operate (I would because that’s how I am but I am attempting to be objective). After the problem is submitted I think a “I have sent a message to vendor. I need to wait for them to get back to me before I can proceed and I will let you know once I get a response” is fine.

      1. BRR*

        Also I’d take a look and see how they are keeping track of everything (even a really disorganized person in this position needs to somehow monitor what needs to be done) and see if you can adapt that to provide information. Maybe there’s another person who can help keep track and reply to the other employees.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, it sounds like one of two possibilities:

      1. Your IT person is extremely overwhelmed being the only IT person. I don’t know what you consider “smallish,” but I used to work in a 30-person organization (with additional contract staff working remotely), and we had two IT people, including me… and I wasn’t sitting around twiddling my thumbs. Chances are your single IT person is system administrator, network administrator, database(s) administrator, tech budget handler, vendor primary contact, and general helpdesk all rolled into one, so she may, in fact, be overwhelmed, and that’s why she’s not able to constantly give people status updates.

      2. Of course, there is also the very real possibility that your IT person is just a prima donna and doesn’t want to be bothered. I’ve met IT people like this. If that’s the case, I doubt she has any interest in finding a better system or implementing a help desk ticketing system with status updates or emailing people back with “Hey, still working on it…. probably done by next week.”

      I guess there may be some kind of possibility #3, but in my experience, it’s usually either #1 or #2. You probably know her better than we do, so you can assess if it’s an attitude problem or an overload problem.

    7. Nobody*

      I’m not an IT person, but it should be pretty simple to create a database to track issues. I’m pretty sure Microsoft Access has a pre-made template for a simple issues tracking database (and you could make it accessible on Sharepoint if you use that) that should take very little time to set up. That way, there would be a standardized way for people to make requests using the database, instead of your IT person getting a mix of phone calls, e-mails, post-it notes, and drop-ins, and people could check on the status of their requests without bothering the IT person.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        There is no dearth of free solutions available—MantisBT, OSTicket, Spiceworks.

        As I said before, either this person is overwhelmed (in which case, the help desk ticketing is just more work to keep track of) or lazy/obstinate (in which case, she definitely won’t want to get a help desk up and running).

    8. ModernHypatia*

      At previous job, I encouraged people to report things using a simple Google Form, and then I would go in and color code status and adding any notes. (Removing completed items from the main spreadsheet periodically).

      It was not terribly successful as a ‘here’s where you can check on what’s going on if I haven’t told you’, because several people didn’t want to learn how to deal with another technology thing, but it did work for the couple of people who did care.

      Part of it is also expectation management: using a quick pre-written thing the IT person can select in the initial email reply of “Thanks for reporting this, I’ve contacted the vendor. I’ll be in touch when they’ve resolved the issue, please let me know if there are further problems by [preferred method]” can go a long way.

  144. anonintheuk*

    The UK tax filing deadline is Sunday 31st,. I am a tax adviser, and we have been told by the head of department that we are not to go checking our emails from home and rushing to do stuff which comes in tonight or Saturday, because clients have had ample notice.

    I am so, so tired. I am taking a long weekend 5-8 February, but the thought of having to pack exhausts me.

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      Lucky you! (that you’re told NOT to check emails or rush). I’ve had clients coming in on October 15th (extension deadline) demanding that I file their return as is. :(

  145. anonintheuk*

    Well, part of that is that it is the weekend. If the 31st were a Wednesday, we would be working late on the Monday and Tuesday – but the partners agreed that if things had not arrived by 5.30 on Friday after numerous reminders, nobody was expected to give up their weekend to finish them off

  146. De Minimis*

    Related to interview questions, anyone have any experience interviewing for student worker positions?

    I’m about to interview students for part-time positions. I’ve checked the resumes so far and most do have at least some level of work experience, but I was wondering if anyone had any advice on what works best when you’re interviewing people who are very much just starting out [though I think just about all of our applicants have at least one previous position.] I was also wondering a good way to differentiate when most of the candidates are on about the same level as far as experience and background.

    I’ve never been on this side of the table at all, so it’s interesting.

      1. De Minimis*

        Thanks!

        We’re affiliated with a very competitive school, so all the candidates have a lot of great accomplishments…it’s definitely going to come down to how they do in the interview. Thankfully, we can hire more than one, and I’m already considering forwarding at least one resume to another department that is also seeking student workers, this person’s skill set may be a better match for them. Not that they couldn’t handle my department, but they seem to have technical skills that would be put to better use by the other group.

    2. newreader*

      If there are specific skills you need the students to have to work in your areas, have the, take skills tests for those tasks. Even just a few short tests can help differentiate.

      If their appearance is important, such as front desk coverage in an area with external visitors, consider their appearance at the interview. When I hired students in this type of environment, we had a set of office expectations that included a dress code (no torn or dirty jeans, no t-shirts with logos, no bare midriffs, no pajama bottoms, etc.). When scheduling interviews, which was done by email, I would provide some details of the job and a copy of these expectations.

  147. KS*

    Interesting find in my employee manual at New Job. No mention of maternity leave policies but a whole section of policies for new fathers. I am happy they have some positive policies for fathers but what about the person having the baby?

    1. LCL*

      Bet that paternity leave was added fairly recently, and TPTB realized they now had to rewrite the whole maternal/parental/paternity leave policy, and that isn’t finished.

  148. metzengerstein*

    Has anyone ever filed a complaint with the Dept. of Labor about their employer not keeping accurate records of time worked for non-exempt employees and failing to pay overtime? (The employer has been made aware that this violates federal labor laws.) Looking at the DOL website, anyone filing a complaint has to provide personal information and I fear if I speak to them my identity might be revealed. Thanks for the help!

    1. alice*

      I haven’t filed a complaint specifically about overtime, but I did about something else. I called first to see exactly what was necessary. The DOL woman I spoke to A, assured me that all information would be kept as confidential as possible so my employer wouldn’t be able to identify who made the complaint; and B, offered to speak to payroll/management giving them a fair warning before I filed the formal complaint. She ended up calling them, and all issues were resolved after that. I’m not saying all DOL employees are this helpful, but I’d call them and see if there are any other (easier and potentially less harmful) alternatives first.

  149. Brandi*

    I started a new sales job last week. Ive spent 6 days on the road just introducing myself. A lot of my buyers are out at market or just getting back (worst time to start!!) and I haven’t had 1 sale!! Help! I’m panicking!!

  150. Indyjones14*

    Maybe someone has some advice for me in this situation around company provided “thank you” gift cards. I realize this is a nice problem to have, so I’m not sure how to raise it with Hr, or if I should raise it at all. I work for a small company, so on the one hand, I am concerned that they are gifting me with gift cards I cannot use, and that’s a waste of money. On the other more selfish hand, I would prefer they gift me with something I can use, if they are going to do this at all. So. Here is the situation: the company provided me with $50 in restaurant gift cards last year on my anniversary date. The restaurants in question are not near where I live. They are chain restaurants, but the nearest is 40-60 mins away and they are a lower end chain, so not some place I would generally go out of my way to eat. I tucked them into my wallet thinking an occasion might arise, but a year went by and we never used them. When we were on vacation and potentially near one of these establishments, we preferred to eat in a more local restaurant. We are somewhat “foodies” and one of our pleasures on vacation is eating at cool or local places.
    So. This year my anniversary rolls around and I receive another $50 in gift cards to the same restaurant chain. I now have $100 to spend in a place that I don’t really want to go. I plan to donate them to a local charity, but I am concerned that this will continue on year after year with the well meaning HR person thinking I am happily enjoying the gift when in fact I somewhat dread and will likely not use it. Should I say something to the HR person and risk looking ungrateful or remain silent and plan to donate this to another person or cause each year?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      How about this: “It’s so kind of the company to give these gift cards. I’ve found that I end up not using them, in part because of the distance, and I feel bad that the company is spending money on them. I can donate them, and I know it’s hard to find a gift that works for everyone, but I thought it might be helpful feedback to have.”

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      As an employee, I’d say it’s not worth the risk to tell them, I’d just donate them. I’m curious what HR people will say, though. I would think your HR person would want to know, but then if they cared that much I would think they would have chosen a gift that would be more universally useful, like a Visa/MC/Amex gift card.

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      Regift!

      You may have an aunt/uncle/friend from college who does live near one of those chain restaurants and would appreciate the evening out. It’s a shame that they’re so far from you because if you were closer, you could find someone in the area who would want them — seniors in nursing homes, teacher at local school, it doesn’t have to be someone you know. It may be $50 to a place you don’t want to go, but another person would be over the moon. Once, someone I knew had someone in their family win a private box with food/beverages in a contest. They couldn’t find (or didn’t know) enough people to fill the amount allowed in or it was taking place at a time when no one could go (I can’t remember). So on the way up to the stadium, there was a middle aged couple negotiating with a person who uh… sells tickets for a living and the guy just walked up to them and asked them if they’d like to come with us into the private box. They were thrilled — the scalper was not. It’s kind of a shame you can’t hang out in the parking lot and give the card to a family who are showing up to eat. There may also be some way you could get rid of it — are there local charities that take donations for silent auctions? Some schools do that to raise funds for whatever.

      It is a little strange though that they give out an anniversary gift that is so specific. I mean it’s nice, I never received anything like that at my jobs, you had to be at LastJob for 5 years before you got an anniversary gift.

      1. Temperance*

        YES! I was given a few iTunes giftcards at work a few years ago, and I just regifted them. It saved me money to not need to buy gifts!

    4. Temperance*

      Why not just use a giftcard exchange site for something you actually want, or regift them? I mean, you can be a “foodie”, and that’s fine, but not everyone is one. I wouldn’t donate, or complain to your company, but that’s just me.

  151. Doriana Gray*

    I had an epiphany today – I’m done working. I’m just over it. I just started my new job last Monday, and though I’m happy to be out of my last job’s toxic environment, I think that, combined with my previous grind of a position (at a churn-and-burn law firm), has officially worn me down. I’m exhausted in my bones. And to make matters worse, we’re getting slammed with work in my current division, and we have crazy completion deadlines. I knew how it was before I took the job, so I’m surprised or upset. I just know that in the long-run this isn’t going to work for me. So I’ll stick this out for a year (making my time at this company a three year run), but then I’m out. That means I’ll have to start job searching again in six months in order to have a good head start on finding a new position. Problem is, I don’t know what I want to do next.

    I also feel bad because one of my former managers I really respect, and a work friend, put in a good word for me to get this job. It’s not going to look great for them when I leave, so I need to figure out how to break the news to them. Plus, the hiring manager of my division and his boss (the Senior VP) went to bat for me to get me my second promotion and third raise in two years of being with this company, not to mention the drama they had to go through to get me out of my previous division – they’re not going to be thrilled either. Still, I feel like if I stay to try and not disappoint people, I’m going to have a nervous breakdown. My mental health has to be a priority.

    So I’m making a commitment to myself to get my finances in order this year so I can quit mid-January of next year. Now I just need some suggestions for low-stress jobs that will still allow me to pay the bills and won’t make me hate life.

    1. katamia*

      It depends on what you find relaxing. Maybe a part-time data entry job if that’s your thing. I worked food service (making food and cashiering) in college and really enjoyed the atmosphere and the work. If you work at a place where most people are pretty laid-back (most of our clients were college students, obviously, so definitely laid-back), then cashiering can be fun depending on your personality.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        My favorite job ever was working as a librarian assistant for two plus years while I was in college. We got busy, sure, but I was surrounded by books and the librarians were all super chill. I’ve been trying the last couple of years to get another library job, but no such luck (I think my lack of library schooling is hindering me here because it’s not like I don’t have the experience). But that would be my dream job. Data entry has its own stresses that I wouldn’t want to deal with again.

    2. alice*

      I’m just a few years into my career, so this isn’t advice of any kind. However, I am very good friends with two people: one is a guy is in his fifties. He was a lawyer – he bought a house, put his kids through college – and the second his last kid graduated, he quit and got a part time job at a movie theatre. He told me that he’s basically retired except he gets free movies on top of the deal!

      The other guy is in his eighties. I believe he was in corporate law or something, and he did the same exact thing. As soon as his kids got through college, he quit and now works at a pet store. I swear these are the two happiest people I have ever met.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Oh man – I don’t think I can last that long (20-30 more years of this?! Gah!), but good for them!

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      Burnout is real. It’s a shame that companies just don’t get that having such go-Go-GO! intensity causes damage to their people.

      In the meantime, do things that help you unplug/destress. Take long hot baths. Get a weekly massage (I know it’s not good for the whole getting-finances-in-order bit). Take up a hobby or workout that allows you to act on your frustrations — learn to box. I used to dream about hanging a heavy bag in my basement that I could just pound on at LastJob.

      As for the low-stress job with amazing pay… if you figure it out, let me know ;)

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Alas, to your last sentence – such a thing may not exist. If those jobs were out there, everyone would have them. It’s nice to dream though.

        As to the hobbies, I have many of those. The problem? I’m so exhausted physically and mentally from the workday that I don’t have the energy to do them. And I need to be in tip top mental shape since I’m a writer – I can’t create when I’m zapped. But the bath thing does sound nice…I’ll start doing that again. It helped a bit when I worked at churn-and-burn law firm.

    4. Overeducated and underemployed*

      Working honestly is not something most of us would do if we didn’t have to (full time! Daily!), so you have my sympathy. That said, you’re just finishing months of frustration with old job and uncertainty about the future, and new job is a transition too. That’s all emotionally exhausting. Even though you can’t stop working, this is the time to give yourself a break from the worrying about the future. Just do what you have to do every day and set a mental timer for months from now before you even start thinking about next steps and plans. I hope that might help.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        It does, thank you. I was just so overwhelmed yesterday – I’m really slow at this job, and I feel like I’m not pulling my weight, which is making me even more frustrated. But I’ve since cooled down :) I warned the hiring manager and his boss before they hired me that speed was going to be an issue for me because we didn’t have the same type of work or deadlines in my previous division, so they knew what they were getting when they brought me onboard.

        Plus, I had a couple of nice things happen to me at work this week. The hiring manager/AVP of my division performed audits on two of my files to check my progress, and he only had one minor suggestion on something I could do better. He then came to me to see if I’d had time to read his notes, and after I said I had, he told me I’d be running circles around him in a week. (I appreciate his vote of confidence, but no). My direct manager then told me two days later that after next week, if I feel comfortable, we can cut my training schedule short and they can officially put me in the rotation for solo assignments. When I said I didn’t feel ready for that yet, he said that’s fine, no pressure, and to let him know if I ever feel like I’m drowning. He can rearrange some things if I am. And yesterday, one of my teammates that I’d worked with previously in another division (we’re both transplants) sent me an IM thanking me for assisting with the setup of a bunch of his new assignments – he said he’d be drowning without me.

        I clearly just need to stop beating myself up about not being at the level that I want to be at because it’s really not helping the stress levels.

  152. Trixie*

    Second interview for internal position, done. I usually hate Friday afternoon meetings but it was perfect for this because I was pretty wiped from week which actually calmed my nerves down a bit. Excited to go from temp to permanent hire on campus. Just need the official word so my 30 day countdown to benefits can start and hopefully sync with enrollment period. Not sure if I’ll need short-term coverage between now and then, project for this weekend to confirm by Sunday night.

    On a lighter note, ready to make my work space mine by cleaning up and bringing a couple things in over time. That, and investing in some wardrobe pieces now that I have some steady income.

  153. Anxa*

    How would you explain long term under or unemployment when you couldn’t find a job?

    I am looking for full time work or a supplemental job, and that’s the main reason I’d leave my current job. I wasn’t taking care of family, recovering from an illness or working on my skills. For the most part I was either unsuccessfully looking for jobs or taking breaks due to rejection burnout. I can’t think of a way to put a positive spin on this one. I feel awkward explaining that I want to leave my job because I want to work full time without drawing more attention to the fact that I’ve never had a ‘professional’ job.

  154. JustAnotherNonProfiteer*

    Hi all:

    Please don’t let the flames be too hot if I’m asking a question that is totally ridiculous. :)

    After being a very cautious, old-fashioned charity for 50 years and having no acquisition strategy at all, we have a sparkly new CEO with a strong affinity for acquisition and leveraging existing contacts (volunteers etc) for the direct mail strategy.

    We have a relatively robust and engaged set of Facebook supporters. How great or terrible an idea would it be to research them and add them to our newsletter mailing list?

    1. katamia*

      Terrible. Absolutely terrible. Do not do this. About the most I’d say you can safely do is put a link to a form people can voluntarily fill out on your FB page and repost it every so often once in awhile.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Newsletter that you’re sending through postal mail or email? If postal mail, totally normal to do. If email, you can’t do it — they have to opt in or it’s spam.

      Either way, though, it might be better to let people opt in by promoting it on your Facebook page and asking them to subscribe.

      1. katamia*

        Is it really normal and fine to look people’s names up from Facebook and just add their names and addresses to your (postal) mailing list? I see that as being extremely intrusive.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s pretty common — it’s called donor prospecting. It’s more common to do it with potential high-dollar donors, but some groups will do it with potential small-dollar donors too.

          The more high tech methods of doing this are things like buying or trading mailing lists from other groups or through clearinghouses. (For example, you can get lists of everyone who’s donated to X organization in the last year, or to political candidate Y, or whatever.) But it’s not uncommon to do less high-tech methods like this of identifying people who are likely to be receptive to hearing about your cause.

          That said, in this case, they have such an easy way of engaging with these people already and asking them to opt in (via their Facebook group) that I’d go with that instead. But the basic concept — research people who might be interested in our cause and put them on our postal mailing list — is pretty widely used.

          1. katamia*

            I think it’s the Facebook element that makes this so repellant to me in this situation. Just because I like you (general you) on Facebook, that doesn’t mean I want to get mail from you, especially if a lot of that mail is going to be requesting money or volunteer time. I don’t want organizations I like on Facebook looking me up, and in fact an action like what JustAnotherNonProfiteer describes would get me to unlike the org on Facebook and tell my friends about what the org did and how intrusive I thought it was. I was already aware that some orgs get lists like what you describe, and while I don’t love that either, that seems much more reasonable and much less intrusive than just looking up all the people who like the org on Facebook.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah, I think that’s totally reasonable, and I think lots of people agree with you.

              There are a lot of prospect research methods that people find distasteful, and organizations definitely get complaints from people who get added to lists that they don’t want to be on. But ultimately, it’s publicly available information, it’s legal, and it raises money.

              In terms of what’s most helpful for JustAnotherNonProfiteer, it’s probably useful for her to know that this is a thing that some orgs do, not just a crazy idea from her new CEO. But it’s also probably useful for her to know that she could say, “You know, I think we might alienate our Facebook fans by doing that, but we could give them a way to opt in instead.”

            2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

              If you are liking anything on Facebook, or elsewhere, under your actual name your info is out there. Your basic information (your name) and any other info you’ve made public (like the area you live, where you went to college, etc.) is available to the page you’ve liked. All of the other things you have liked is available to the page you’ve liked.

              Basically, if you don’t want your info out there, you need to not like things or not do it under your actual name (which, I know is against TOS at FB)

              I’m not uptight about privacy as a norm, but I don’t have my location, my employer or my college on my FB, because that’s the data bits that are easily grabbed, and I’d prefer that they weren’t. I don’t “like” many pages either, because that info is so easily seen and grabbed.

              Anytime I like something, like PP, I’m fully aware that I’ve just told the universe I Stand With PP. If you like something, you give up privacy by doing that.

              1. AnotherFed*

                It’s still pretty damn sketchy to take someone’s facebook like and hunt down their physical address instead of just sending spam email – everyone has throw away email addresses for that. If it’s available on their profile, that’s one thing, but when they just have a name and state and you combine it with public tax and property records, that’s both creepy and probably a bad use of time.

                But then, I don’t even have a picture of myself as my profile pic, so I might just be paranoid.

                1. katamia*

                  Exactly. That’s a whole other level that goes beyond the normal data collection that Facebook does.

                2. Observer*

                  I think you have it reversed. A lot of people do NOT have “throw away addresses”. As for “hunting down” people’s addresses, it’s sooo easy to do, especially given the way most people list themselves on Facebook, it really doesn’t come to “stalking”.

                  Also, as annoying as paper mail is, because it has a higher cost to the organization, it tends to be more self limiting. On the other hand, for people without good filters, the amount of spam in their inboxes makes the very irate with any organization that sends spam.

  155. TootsNYC*

    Help! Talk me off the ledge?

    I feel like I’ve done something wrong and am going to get in trouble—but this is the opposite.

    What I did: I took my proposed hiring scheme to HR to make sure it was kosher w/ rules & regs. (I hire freelancers through an agency for crunch times—usually hourly.)
    And for some reason, I feel as though I’ve “tattled” on myself!

    The proposed scheme is to hire someone for two weeks at a weekly rate, and then use them for different hours between the two weeks—50 or so on one week), 20 on the other (for 35-hr weeks instead of 40).

    The freelancer likes this idea, because she’d have full days to write at home early in the cycle. I like it because I’d spend the same amount of money but get worker hours when I need them (and not when I don’t).

    I’m supposed to be avoiding overtime, so if I can pay a weekly rate no matter what the hours are, I can get the extra hours without paying OT. But I’ve read enough lately here that I wanted to be sure we wouldn’t find ourselves in trouble with the whole exempt/nonexempt idea.

    So I went to HR to find out whether my plan was legal, and whether it fit in with the new money-saving rates, etc.

    And came away thinking, “Oh, shit, that was a mistake, I’m going to get in trouble with SOMEbody—my boss, the corporation, the business manager, me if this booking falls through…”

    I guess why I feel like I’m about to get in trouble is this:
    My freelancer wants $35/hr; the new rate is $30. Normally we book people for 40 hours, so $1,200. But if she works only 35 hours for that weekly rate, it’s about $35/hr. Same ding to my budget.
    Maybe HR/corp. will think I should pay her $30 for 35 hours (only $1,050/week, for $3,200 in savings), but I’ll lose her if I do. I don’t absolutely need the 40 hours, but I do have the $1,200 in the budget.

    But feeling doomed is very premature. If they don’t like my scheme, I’ll abandon it; I think i can find a way to hire her without completely losing her–and if I do lose her, at least I’ve got her for the next close, and I can try to find someone else.

    Am I the only one who tries to cover their bases and ends up feeling that I’ve made a strategic mistake somehow?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      You’re making yourself crazy, cut it out.

      :-)

      Honestly, you’re doing exactly the right and responsible thing. You’re trying to maximize the use of your budget and double checking to make sure you’re legal.

      Cut it out. Have a Friday night cocktail.

      This is all!

      1. Ruffingit*

        I cannot improve on Wakeen’s answer. I am here only to second the motion that you cut it out and have a Friday night cocktail. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

  156. glache*

    Hey Alison, will this thread be closed after (your) Friday? I’m in Australia and this coming Mon (which is your Sun) I’m expecting to get some offers (two 11th hour voicemails left on my Friday asking me to ring back). If this is the case, I know there will be some big questions I have to ask myself (this is beyond the basic “how do I decline one and accept the other”) and I may need a sounding board from impartial people. So, will this thread be closed after today? Thanks!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Nope, it won’t close — it stays open for years, in fact! You’re much less likely to get responses from people after (my) Friday and Saturday — people tend to stop frequenting it after the first day or two — but it’s not impossible!

        1. glache*

          Wow. Where do I start?

          Offered and accepted Job A in December which is super part-time at 5 hours/week. It was the only thing going at the time. Teaching at uni. It’s also the city I’m currently in (more on that later). I know I like teaching. I’ve been struggling to find part-time work that would complement, or fulltime work that would accommodate, for that. I got it through connections (more on that later too).

          2 weeks ago offered Job B. Sounds crazy but a really good friend, her fiancee commutes regularly between the two cities Jobs A and B are located in. I thought maybe I could do that too and asked for 4 days, because Job B is equally as super rare as Job A. Last week, they emailed me saying they really need me fulltime, but that both of them would be going on leave until Thursday, so could I please respond by the time they get back? Went back to that friend, who had worked in that particular area (which I haven’t and therefore couldn’t really judge its merits) and she said you need to ask these questions, and these are the answers that I would be after that would make it worth the move. No worries, sent an email and was expecting a response by Friday (they did say they’d give a ring “by the end of the week that we’re both back”) which they didn’t. I’m going to ring Monday, but if they give me the answers I’m looking for, then….

          Job C was one of the two voicemails left on Friday. It’s in the city I’m in, and it’s 1 day a week. Combined with teaching, that’s 2 days a week. I have another casual job which are rationing when they roster me because they exceeded the last budget. However, I want to keep in touch because a) I love the people I work with, and b) it’s one of only 2 workplaces in the state that are also nationally accredited to deliver workplace education, and I’ve just signed up for a nationally recognised certificate which could open up so many opportunities. I could do the certificate elsewhere, but I’m paying around $350 for it when a proper one (i.e. not shonky) on average costs $2000. I don’t have to settle the account until May, so pulling out without financial penalty is not an issue.

          However (yes, still on Job C) I had a temporary contract over Xmas in a country town 3 hours north of where I am, and they really liked me and said they would put me on as a casual for 2 days a week and give me free overnight accommodation etc. Let’s call this country casual job Job D. That country casual job is in a senior-ish sort of role which I did before, so I know I like that kind of work. The commute is surprisingly fine–trains in both directions leave at 6pm so it’s not like I can’t work a full day in either place, or have to hang around for ages and then arrive at midnight or something. Between the FOUR jobs–2 casual, 1 teaching, 1 permanent part-time I think I could make it work. However, is relying on 2 casual jobs to make at least another 1-2 days/week risky? (I don’t have to work fulltime, financially I’m very fine, so I’m happy with 3-4 days)

          Job E was the other voicemail left on Friday. However, it’s a very distant second to both Job B and the combination of Jobs A/C/D so I won’t discuss it.

          So essentially the scenarios I’ll possibly be facing come Monday are:

          – Job B (fulltime, interstate)
          – Jobs A (uni, 1 day a week) + C (city, 1 day a week) + D (country, 2 days a week) + current casual job with the budget problems but super cheap nationally recognised qualification. The budget problems are specific to the department, so the qualification classes will run anyway.

          So my dilemma is:

          – If Job B does give me the answers I’m looking for, and Job C does offer me. Job B would give so many opportunities but I would lose:
          a) Job A itself (the teaching job, which is equally as hard to get and equally as valuable as what Job B would offer)
          b) potentially the chance to ever work in that particular city again (the person who referred me to Job B is 6 degrees of separation from everyone in the industry in that city!)
          c) current casual job with the budget problems, and therefore cheap access to that nationally recognised qualification (remember, nearly a fifth of the standard price!)
          – However, is the combination of Job A + C (which are the only fixed ones) + D (which is still technically casual) + current casual job too risky in terms of filling up my time? Again, financials is not an issue, I just need to, well, essentially fill up my time.

          You’ve unleashed a demon Alison! Sorry!

          1. AnotherFed*

            Generally, when people are worried about multiple jobs, it’s because they need the multiple jobs to make ends meet, so risks of schedule conflicts or not enough shifts are really risks of not making enough $ to pay rent. But you’ve stated that the financials aren’t a problem, so really the risk for you would be what?

            If sounds like you want the certification, you love the teaching, and the commuting will work out… you’ve got no positives down for Job B except that it’s full time. Have you answered your own question without realizing it?

            1. Glache*

              Thanks Another Fed, sorry I should make it clearer.

              Pros of Job B are rare skill (I’m a pharmacist and it’s oncology/cancer) and full-time (but it’s not a must have). Oncology positions rarely come up. You essentially need to work at a place full-time for several years as a base level pharmacist and I’ve done the equivalent amount of time between several places and worked out I can’t do it any longer (and I mention several places because it’s definitely not workplace-specific, it’s the nature of the work itself. Too hectic). Cons are no teaching, no certification (which relates to teaching) and potentially burning bridge. However, I can get the certification elsewhere (just more expensive) so really the main con is burning bridge, followed by not teaching (it has no opportunities for mentorship as there’s no students, and from the walk around post interview it looks like I’m the youngest one there)

              Pros of Job C are I don’t have to move (but that’s just a one off thing and is not a reason for not taking an exceptional job), teaching, not burning bridges. Cons is no oncology (which is seriously a good skill to have, and in this tight market, if I have to resort to contracting, it would really open up contracting opportunities). That’s seriously about it

              Thanks for reading though, I’m super impressed you got through my ramble! I thought taking a gap year was the hardest decision ever, but this is twice as bad!

  157. Anxa*

    i typically have at least one dry clean or air dry piece of clothing in my interview ensembles. I live in a very humid area and share a closet with another person and overstuffed my closet so my suits, pea coat and dress pants have a fuzzy mildew issue. I cannot afford a new suit or to tailor a thrift store one, so I was wondering if anyone has any tips on treating my suits so that fuzzies don’t reappear. Without spending much money. I typically wear cottens and easy wash garments and am not used to laundering synthetics and business clothes. I usually spot clean with a cloth dampened with vinegar.

    Also, outside of business, banking, law and the fancier professions, how important do you think shoes are to an outfit? I plan on using a thrift store find in good condition that I’m not thrilled about. They are gently worn and appropriate but I didn’t pick them out deliberately so I worry they don’t match terribly well; I don’t feel as polished as I would like in them.

    1. Graciosa*

      I can’t help with the first part (treating suits) but I can assure you that I don’t mark candidates down for wearing gently worn and appropriate shoes.

      I say this in spite of being in one of the “fancier” professions you listed and having a very precise eye for color. This is not a focus in an interview. If you’re dressed professionally, you’ve passed that test and we can move on to more important things, like assessing how well you would perform in the role.

      I mean this very literally. I was once discussing with my boss whether to send a visiting candidate over to meet the head of our function. She asked if he was presentable, which left me nonplussed and unsure how to answer until she clarified by asking if he was wearing a suit.

      That was the whole test – if we’re going to send him to an SVP, he needs to be wearing a suit (he was). Not a stunning suit, or a well-tailored suit, or a designer suit – just a suit.

      I’m more worried about you letting your unnecessary and self-imposed discomfort with your shoes throw you off in the interview. Don’t. The odds are overwhelming that no one will notice or care – and in the extraordinary event that someone might, the way to diffuse it would be to rise above it with confidence.

      Seriously, unless the interview is as a contestant on Project Runway, don’t worry about it.

      Good luck.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Also–shoes are way down by the floor. Most people don’t spent that much time actually looking at them. Plus they’re sort of far away.

        They may see them from a distance as they come to get you in the reception area. As they get closer to you, they’ll be looking at your face, or at where they’re walking.

        And when you’re sitting (which is most of the interview, probably) any desk or table will completely hide their view.

        Not many people are all that up on shoes, so as long as they’re the appropriate style for the whole ensemble.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Are the care tags still in the clothes? It should show you if they are machine washable or if you have to dry clean them.

      Have you tried the dry cleaner sheets for at home use?

      Can you take a couple of interview outfits out of the closet and keep them somewhere else? I am thinking of an over the door hook and you could hang them on a door for better air circulation.

      1. TootsNYC*

        honestly, I’d suggest you look into some sort of rack to stand in the corner of the room. Even if it looks messy.

        Storage isn’t good storage if it’s actively damaging the things that are in it.

        But of course, that doesn’t help you with the problem of mildewy stuff right now

        I might try a spot-clean with white vinegar. Or rubbing alcohol. Douse a white cotton washcloth of small towel with the liquid, and rub.

  158. Relosa*

    I know it’s said over and over again that “it’s the market, not you” when you are rejected from a job.

    But at some point you have to consider there’s only one common denominator.

    In my primary field (not the pay-the-bills one)…I have an amazing resume, all the best internships and a great list of references. If I submit my resume to an open position in my primary field, I get calls back pretty quick. Phone screens are super. I get invited for an interview, and it goes great.

    Except I never get past the first one.

    The few chances I get to attend events and network, everyone asks me the same question: “Why aren’t you doing this? Why isn’t this your job right now?” like I’m the one turning down offers.

    At some point, you just have to give up.

    I’m a lot closer to that point than I’d care to be.

    1. TootsNYC*

      Could you maybe go back to someone from one of those “great” interviews, maybe not the most recent on, and ask if they’d let you buy them lunch in return for some honest feedback?

      Can you do a mock interview with people you trust, and video tape it?

      How are your references?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Well, it could be you… or maybe not.

      If it’s you, it sounds as if there’s something you’re doing in the interview that’s turning people off. This may be awkward, but can you do a mock interview with a trusted friend or colleague (someone who can be brutally honest with you). Maybe you give off a too-arrogant or too-timid vibe, or you’re vague with your answers, or you don’t pick up on social cues? Who knows? There could be something you’re unknowingly doing that’s sinking your chances.

      But, really, it might not be you. You may be in a highly competitive industry. All it takes is for one other candidate to be slightly more appealing than you, and you’re “rejected.” Also, you mention that you have “all the best internships.” Do you also have a long job history? Are you a recent college/university grad? I also, when I finished grad school, had a great résumé and excellent internships… and everyone was looking for someone with 3-5 years’ teaching experience (which I didn’t have).

      when you are rejected from a job

      You really do have to remember that if you have been called in for an interview, you haven’t been rejected from a job. If you’re never called or if you’re told to stop bothering them, then you’re rejected. All you can be otherwise is not offered the job. It may sound like silly semantics, but the frame of mind you have can really affect your attitude and well-being. Have you been on a hiring committee before? Usually, you narrow it down to several strong candidates, and you have to pick one (one, not three) to offer the job to. If that one takes it, you aren’t offering the job to the other two candidates. They may feel “rejected,” but you weren’t rejecting them, just favoring the one who got it.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I agree.

        I also note that this is not your pay-the-bills job, which leads me to think it’s a particularly hard field to get into.

        1. Relosa*

          warning: self-serving blah crap ahead. Nothing really productive, just commiseration.

          So, I usually dance around this topic a bit when I post here, for anonymity, but I post here less and less frequently, and a few years back I used to be pretty open about the business I work in.

          The primary field I work in–the attractions industry–is insanely difficult to get back into if you ever leave it. I never quite did, but there are a number of factors that always stack against me. Namely that the jobs I always lose out on are specifically for attractions/operations/in-park management. Of course there are a ton of jobs in the general field, but the golden moments are when ride ops/park ops/attractions management jobs open up.

          Quick rundown: like 99% of people in the industry, I started at a park as a summer job, and then long story short it became a career choice. I changed majors and schools, and studied the field (recreation management) while I worked my way up and got a ton of hands-on leadership experience. I graduated in 2012, but I was already 25 with a pretty full resume at that point. As of now I’ve been in it altogether for 10 years. Something that always gets interviewers’ attention is how much experience I do have, especially that I earned a lot of it while still in school, and how specific the career path is indicated on my resume.

          Litigation and liability is a Big Deal internally, so feedback for rejected candidates is an absolute no-no. They just won’t do it–and so I ask directly in the interview about any weaknesses to address. Honestly I think they just hide behind the fact that it’s a white male dominated industry. I was only told once to my face point-blank that they would never hire a woman in the role I was interested in, and only because I never actually had the chance to apply so I wasn’t a candidate.

          It is really hard to network in this field if you aren’t already employed in it. The best way to do it is to attend a ton of expos, but I can’t even pay rent next week much less come up with $1,500 to schlep cross-country multiple times a year and maintain independent memberships in professional organizations, which are several hundred dollars yearly (discounts are given to “young professionals” but you have to actually be employed by a company in the organization to qualify). The other best way is of course Linkedin; I try to keep up but because I’m so busy just trying to find any work it’s nearly impossible to keep up. It’s effective, but only when I’m working full-time for a facility and can actually take the time to sit down and touch base with people.

          Mock interviews for these jobs are a challenge; I’ve tried them and it doesn’t pay off well. While the format and such are the same, no one who can/will mock with me really has any concept of the industry and what the managers look for (which can also vary wildly from park to park). Very rarely are any of the “standard” questions asked and I have those down pat.

          Moreover, I moved cross-country last year, and I’m resolute in the fact that I simply will not leave this area for a job. It’s fine because it’s actually a great market for the jobs/industry I want, and I’ve worked enough in other parts of the country to know that I wouldn’t succeed at other places. And inbetween opportunities, there are a ton of other things to do to keep my resume fresh.

          I was actually internally recruited for this job, for THIS company, that has been my #1 choice for years and years. And THIS job I had actually already seen on their job-site but sighed and gave up because in the dozen times I’d applied to them, I’d never even heard a peep, so why would they want me now? And then I blew the interview. I don’t even know how or why, but I knew the moment I walked out it wasn’t mine. Not in the “forget about it and if you get it, yay!” way, but in the “Yeah I just effed up the best opportunity I’d waited for.” And I can’t even figure out why. Nothing bombed. I answered everything well. But there was just this slippery thing throughout the whole interview that I noticed but couldn’t acknowledge until after I left, until days later really.

          Five minutes after I got the rejection email, the same recruiter called me with “Ohhh but we have a role for you somewhere! Just wait!” And I can’t even be bothered. It doesn’t matter, and I’m not sure if I really am that qualified for the roles he wants to discuss. I don’t want to keep going in there just to get rejected over and over and over again. The one job I wanted is the one I didn’t–and won’t–get. I wasn’t a final candidate. I was cut after the first round. In the past, I’d applied to other similar roles in the company even if it wasn’t the one I wanted, simply to have the chance to get my foot in the door and then eventually worm my way into attractions. And I honestly felt I’d be successful in them. But anything else now just feels like a consolation: well, you’re not good enough for that but you can do this instead.

          And the thing is–I know it’s me. There are a multitude of other factors, but I know it’s just me. I’ve tried to train out the awful things of my personality that everyone dislikes about me and I can’t do it. It’s just the way I am. I do come across as a snob no matter how hard I try. (I’m sure here I sound absolutely whiny and entitled, too). I’m one of those women who are labeled with colorful words for being assertive and prepared.

          And this time I’m just done. I don’t know. I can usually dust off my butt after a couple days of moping but this one really, really got to me and I just can’t bring myself to go back.

          (sidenote: yes I have thought of just starting at the bottom and working my way up but many things won’t let that happen–namely student debt and the fact that depending on the park, it can take years upon years to get there, if they ever let you out of hourly/front-line status. Disney is notorious for that and one of the reasons I’m wary to work for them)

        2. Relosa*

          Also, yes I have been on a hiring committee in the past. And in this industry you become spoiled goods at some point. There’s clearly something wrong with me as a candidate that each hiring person sees differently. I shouldn’t have the resume that I do without having park management experience, but yet it’s not there. I used to dream of GMing a major park. Now I laugh because if at my age I can’t even get a middle management job, no way in hell will I ever run a park as a whole.

          1. fposte*

            Ugh, Relosa, that sounds really, really hard. I’m sorry. Not that this gets you any closer to a job, but it sounds like there’s something wrong in your chosen field more than something wrong with you. I don’t know if that’s any more consoling than “It’s not you, it’s me” as a breakup reason, but I hate to see you beating yourself up over your inability to break into an extremely closed field. We love the narratives about successful pioneers, but most people trying to be pioneers fail, because pioneering is really, really hard, and there’s a lot more than merit involved in who first sneaks through the breach in the fence.

            But it also sounds, understandably, like you’re mixing a lot of things into the pot. You have dislikeable characteristics (don’t we all); you have characteristics they won’t forgive in a woman; you can’t change them anyway. But your concern with mock interviews is mock interviewers don’t know the *field*–yet here you’re thinking that communication style is an issue, which is something that even people who don’t know the field can give you feedback on. And I’m concerned that you’re saying you can’t change your communication style and you can’t change where you live, but it sounds like you feel like you’re not going to have success doing things as you’re doing them. So how long would be too long to keep trying without changing either your approach, your locale, or your chosen field?

            What I’d do in your position would depend on a bunch of things. But if I really believed this was a factor, I might consider approaching the one thing I have some control over, which is the communication aspect; if done right, that could be a development of skills that could serve you whichever direction you take, so it’s not like taking a course in an obscure software that’s valueless if you head elsewhere. I don’t know how to find good soft-skills coaching, but that’s where I’d start looking. The idea wouldn’t be fixing this big flaw you have; it’s adding to your toolbox and giving you more options that you’d find valuable in this field or elsewhere.

            And I really, really encourage you not to think of this situation as meaning that something is wrong with you. I don’t think that’s true, any more than there’s something wrong with the actress who gets beat out by Angelina Jolie for the part. I hope soon it will be your turn to be Angelina Jolie.

  159. Turtle named Mack*

    I’m a little late. I need some book suggestions! I am taking over a new team that is at a remote location. I’d love to read some management books while on the airplane. Does anyone have a favorite?

  160. Karen*

    My co-workers are very sarcastic and there is a lot of put-down humor. They are also VERY very snarky, negative, gossip-y, etc. I am not. I don’t fit in and am the oddball out. I am quiet and focus on my work. My co-workers are not happy about this, so they make fun of me for being quiet and probably think I’m stuck-up or something. When I do try to talk, they give me the cold shoulder/ give one word answers. So what do I do? My boss has sometimes joined in and he’ll ignore me and only address my co-worker. They play these mind games where sometimes they talk to me, sometimes they don’t. (They’ll be social for a couple days, then ignore me. They almost sense when I’m upset because then they start socializing with me.) It’s getting tiring and I am very upset by this. It almost feels like I’m being bullied for being quiet. Does anyone have any advice or has anyone experienced this?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Leave. Seriously, get another job. You do not fit into the culture there and you should be happy about that because it sounds very ugly and negative. Job hunt and find a better environment. I went from an environment where there was very little social interaction and my boss ignored me/was contemptuous and awful to one where everyone is friendly and fun and we support each other. Seriously, there’s no point in staying where you are. You cannot change this and make it better for yourself except by leaving.

      1. Karen*

        I just feel like it’s me or like I’m going crazy because they are very careful to put their “game face” on when the higher ups are around.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          That is what they want you to feel.

          If what they are doing is so Right, then why do they stop in front of the big bosses? They know it’s wrong, that is why they stop.

          Remember cowards need to bully others. Normal people do not.

          1. TootsNYC*

            Agree.

            I’ve been in situations where I was just not in the “in” crowd, but if I joined the conversation I was welcomed, even if not overly warmly. And people answered questions in a perfectly pleasant way.

            In fact I had a boss who would totally ignore me if the situation was the least bit social. But when I went to her to talk about work, she was completely responsive and communicative, and she indicated her support of my work. She just never, ever socialized with me at all.
            It was a little weird, but it wasn’t all that unpleasant.

            This doesn’t sound like that. So spend your energy figuring out how to get out, or into another department, or something, instead of on how to make this better.

    2. NicoleK*

      What you’re experiencing isn’t “normal” and you shouldn’t accept it as normal. I’m an introvert and probably more reserved than my colleagues. I may not have gotten all the plum projects, wasn’t friends with all my coworkers, wasn’t any boss’s pet, but I never felt targeted because I was quiet. I got along with most people and got my work done.

    3. Iphigenia*

      They’re picking on you because you’re refusing to join their vortex of negativity. Leave as soon as you can.

  161. Freelancer*

    I’ve done some freelance work in the past and am currently writing regularly for an online site, but I need to make more money. I got a website up and running. What are some of the best ways to advertise my services? I am doing general content writing, academic writing/editing, and resumes, and general editing work. I have experience in all of these areas. So how do I go about advertising my services to get the best response?

    1. Lulubell*

      The Renegade Writer always has great tips for marketing your freelance writing services. I’m not a freelance writer but find her approach to marketing very useful.

  162. Carrots*

    My boss sometimes seems upset with me about something- it’s very awkward in our department and it’s like there’s an elephant in the room. It also doesn’t help that while he is great at his job, he is extremely mercurial and doesn’t communicate with me that much. To make matters worse, my co-worker seems to be his partner-in-crime, so it’s very 2 against 1. I feel so alone and the two of them have inside jokes and hang out all of the time- I’m left out. I’m very blunt, so I want to scream out, “Why do you guys hate me so much?” but of course that’s not the professional thing to do. Is there a way to express this without looking like some crazy person? Something along the lines of asking him if I have done something wrong or if I should be doing something differently?

    1. fposte*

      He shouldn’t be buddy-buddy with a single report like that, that’s for sure, but that’s not something you can make him change. So I would try to identify the specific things he’s doing that are making you think this, and thinking about whether they’re indications he’s upset with you or just unequal treatment. It’s fine to go to the boss and say “Our conversation this morning made me wonder if you have concerns about my work. I’d really like to address them and improve, if so–can you tell me if there are areas you’d like to see that in?” But I’d stay away from the relationship-py “Have I done something wrong?” kind of questions in general, and especially in this situation because they sound like “Why do you like Co-worker and not me?”

      I also think that this isn’t a great sign for your future there, however good your work is; a boss happy to play favorites so openly isn’t likely to turn into a coolly reasonable person when it comes time for promotions and raises. So maybe start looking around for other possibilities.

  163. Overeducated and underemployed*

    Returned today from a long, out of town interview, and now looking forward to an interview next week. I’ve had 13 in person interviews in the last year and only two offers, and i know that i’m one of multiple candidates every time, so I’m trying not to get my hopes up too much…but I will be pretty crushed if neither of these pans out, for several personal and professional reasons. Wish me luck, please! The stakes feel high!

    2. Doriana Gray*

      Good luck! If you’ve had that many interviews, eventually something will fall into place for you.

  164. John Watson*

    Don’t know if anyone’s still reading this, but what is the shortest amount of time you’ve been at a job? Really want to leave mine already – I didn’t realize until I took this one that I’m quite burned out on what I’m doing now and need to go the complete opposite way.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Job that was supposed to last a while—full-time gig? Seven months (felt like seven years). Otherwise, generally 3-5 years per job.

      1. Elizabeth*

        10 months on a full time- left after I realized I was making less than I should be (less than $30k in DC) at a place that ended up being almost 2 hours of commute time (only 50 miles – SHOULD have been 45min-1hour in the car).

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Three days.
      An evening laundry attendant also doing fluff-and-fold. The filing/billing system was index cards in a metal box. The place was ill-lit and in a shitty neighborhood. Could not use a calculator to figure charges. Plus, I had to leave my full-time job (7-3) at 2:30 in order to change and get over there in time.

      Nope.

    3. Ruffingit*

      Six weeks. I realized I just couldn’t take it anymore and quit on the spot. The place literally had 90% turnover and that is a conservative estimate. I was one of many who up and left…

    4. Lulubell*

      Five months. But I was recruited by another company or I would have stuck it out longer. But I was miserable and happy to be courted away!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      About a month. I took a summer job. The business owner promised me a full 40 hour week plus tips. There was barely 20 hours and there were no tips. I could not pay the rent. I fell into another job offer. I quit with little notice. She turned around and fired my cousin simply because I quit.

    6. A.J.*

      I’m going through something similar right now. I started my job about 1 month ago and it is just awful. Its a W2 contract position through a staffing agency, so I don’t feel too bad about leaving so soon. Fortunately I have a lead on a potentially great new job from an ex-colleague, so if all goes well I can leave this place in a few weeks.

    7. Windchime*

      One and a half days. Telemarketing, split shifts. We were selling screen doors or storm doors or something. This was 30 years ago, so we were all sitting in a big room full of telephones and lists of phone numbers out of the phone book. The schedule was 4 hours in the morning, then a break all day, and then 4 hours in the evening (so you could bug people during their dinner). I lasted through two morning shifts and one evening shift before I quit.

  165. Megan*

    I volunteered to cover a person’s vacation shifts for 7 ten-hour days (it was third shift, and where I work third shifters work 7 days on and then have 7 days off and are considered full time). Now that that’s over, a different third shift person quit. My manager scheduled me to cover some of their shifts, which would be fine except for the following:

    1. It’s not a shift I’ve ever trained on, and the job duties are significantly different – so much so that I couldn’t reasonably fake my way through it.
    2. I was not hired to do third shifts, I covered the vacations in a pinch and normally work first shifts, and man do I dislike the third shift there I’ve found out.
    3. It drops my hours down from 40 hours a week to 34 hours a week – PTO will be taken to cover the rest of the hours.
    4. My manager didn’t actually ask if I would be willing to work the shifts, she just scheduled me for them. On top of that, she didn’t even notify me that my schedule changed – I found out by looking at the schedule and found it had been revised.

    I haven’t seen my manager since this happened. I’m wondering if I should just roll with the punches and work it, since I’m trying to establish myself as a team player, but I wonder if this will open me up to this sort of thing in the future. If I do speak to her, how could I reasonably even frame it? I worry that if I balk at this I’ll find myself on the short end of the stick for scheduling coming up.

    1. asteramella*

      They’re having you cover shifts AND reducing your hours/making you use PTO?! Definitely do not roll with this. Point out your hesitancies regarding being unfamiliar with the work, and explain that being forced to use PTO in order to ensure that your workplace has 3rd shift coverage doesn’t really make sense, since you’re trying to be a flexible team player and stretch to cover different responsibilities.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I’m wondering if there’s a way to say–only more subtly–“I was trying to be a team player and cover those vacation shifts; it was a big load, actually. I hoped that my cooperative attitude would have earned me some consideration, like consulting with me and making sure I got the same number of hours instead of having to use up my vacation time, or take a paycut, or something.”

  166. Uncomfortable*

    My boss has made inappropriate comments recently and I’m not sure how to address it. He refers to people we work with by their ethnicity (“these crazy Chinese”) and described our coworkers wife’s “amazing boobs”. A few days ago, he told me a “funny” story about a guy masturbating. I should’ve shut it down then and there and really regret not doing so, but I was caught off guard and didn’t know what to say. What should I say if he says something like this again? I don’t want him to think it’s okay to talk to me about this stuff.

    1. AnotherFed*

      “Dude, that’s creepy – I don’t want to know that about Guy.” For things that are less creepy and more sexist, the eyebrow lift and “Really? That’s kind of sketchy, boss.”

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I have a hard time believing someone who makes those kinds of remarks in a professional setting will be open to feedback, especially from someone who reports to him. And then even if you say something and his behavior changes around you (best case scenario), you know that’s what he’s really thinking the whole time or saying to other people when you’re not around.

      I’d start brushing up the résumé and looking for elsewhere to work. I have a hard time working for a boss I don’t respect.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      *straight face* “That’s really inappropriate.” Or the ever-popular, “Wow.”

      If he gets all defensive–“I’m just joking!”–especially if you’re talking about this just the two of you, you can say, “I understand, but those kinds of remarks can be legally problematic in the workplace.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Good one, EW.

        OP, remember if he gets defensive that means you are winning, you are making your point. Just have the courage to keep going with what Elizabeth says about it being problematic in the work place.

  167. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

    I have two questions!

    1.) Does anyone have a good resource for CV samples/writing help? Every website I look at offers a different way to format it (at least it seems like that!).

    2.) This question is for any Librarians. Everyone said I would have no trouble finding a job if I was willing to relocate. Well…I’m just getting rejections. Are public libraries really willing to hire out of state? Should I switch my focus to academic libraries? I’ve had my resume looked at, have been told my experience/background is impressive, write cover letters specifically for the position, read AAM obsessively for advice, etc. I just don’t know what to do! Any advice is much, much appreciated.

    1. ModernHypatia*

      Coming to this late, but hoping you see it! I’ve done two different library job hunts at a distance. It’s definitely possible, but it’s going to take time, and there’s some things you’re going to need to pay particular attention to.

      My usual line to people is that librarians at the moment can pick one of the following three things for a job: location they want, type of library they want, or type of library work they want. If you are fixed about one of them, you need to be flexible about the others or expect it to take a long time to find a job. There are also areas of the country where there are *lots* of library jobs posted (across different kinds of libraries) and places where there are very few. Aiming for the places with more jobs is obviously logical, but they also tend to be places with higher costs of living and/or active library schools.

      1) It’s a lot harder to get hired when you’re applying close to a library school for two reason. First, there’s just plain lots of candidates, and a library may not want to go through the fuss of dealing with a long-distance candidate (especially for someone who just got their degree) when they’ve got lots of people local who can start quickly without moving. The other is that if people went to the local library school, they may have connections (through professors, internships, etc.) to particular library systems, and you won’t have that.

      Places outside a reasonable commute of wherever the library schools are often a lot more willing to consider out of area applicants, but you need to filter for libraries that may have other issues (salary, hours, other expectations, high degree of control by a library board, etc.)

      2) You have to make it easy for the library to interview and for them to feel pretty certain you’ll be a worthwhile hire. For public libraries, that almost certainly means paying for your own travel to final interviews (and being flexible about how to do an initial phone/Skype/whatever interview.)

      You also need to be convincing that you’re interested in living in or near the place where the library is. Things that worked for me at various places included talking briefly about having visited the area or having friends there, and knowing I liked it, or that it would put me a much closer distance (driving vs. flying) to see people I cared about on weekends. Signs that you understand the climate/challenges of the location, whatever they are, help a lot. If you don’t have previous experience with the location, anything you can use to briefly make it clear you want to make it a home, not just a temporary “I need a job” will help.

      Academic libraries tend to be more willing to look at long-distance candidates (and a university as a whole is used to dealing with them). If you’re interested in schools, independent (private) schools don’t usually require a teaching license, and they can also be an option.

      3) The more you can demonstrate or bring skills that are not in high demand, the better – especially if you’re applying to places with more applicants. Blogging links or material that makes it clear you’re constantly learning new skills/reading books/improving your search and reference skills/whatever else is relevant to the kinds of jobs you’re looking at can help, volunteer projects where you can polish particular kinds of tasks.

      It’s tricky to know what to suggest here without knowing more about what kinds of library work you are particularly interested in / already have relevant experience in, but it does help. (Also, projects give you things to talk about in interviews.)

      You’re welcome to email further (contact info on my website, as linked) if you want, I’m glad to try and help, and talk about specific places I found useful when interviewing. (I got my MLIS in 2007, moved from MN to ME in 2011, and from ME to MA last May: my background is one job in an independent school, one in a public university, and now something that’s technically a special library, but associated with a school, but I also got interviews for a bunch of public library jobs in my last two rounds of job hunting.)

  168. Elizabeth West*

    Probably really late and no one will see this, but I wondered if I were to learn a language pursuant to working somewhere other than here, what would be the most versatile one? I was thinking Europe or similar. Thanks.

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      I see it!

      But unfortunately, not a good answer. It really depends on the field, where in Europe, etc. I’ve heard that in the future, the most valuable languages to know will be Arabic and Standard Mandarin Chinese.

    3. AnotherFed*

      It really, really, really depends on what you want to do. Arabic is very useful in some areas – defense, security, social work/immigrant outreach, even customer service in some neighborhoods. German is probably more useful in more traditional business applications, but even there, having the right accent in English would be just as useful in climbing the corporate ladder.

  169. Sad*

    I was wondering if anyone could give me advice on how to cope with this:

    A year ago I was in a LOAD of crap when I was caught misusing the internet – it was a combination of inexperience, misunderstanding and depression. It was addressed, there was an awkward period of distrust but it was re-addressed and we agreed to a clean slate going forward. I was encouraged to show more initiative and would be given more to fill my plate.

    Over the past year I THOUGHT I was a model employee – but my supervisor just swept it away from me. I came back from lunch to her waiting with a pile of claim forms, she at first played it off as an observation that I was taking the reference # from the last page and writing it on the front, she wanted me to explain myself. I told her that it makes it easier for me in the long run, particularly when a problem arises with a claim, and since I get 1-2 claims per day it literally takes a max 10 seconds per day to do. She then told me she didn’t want me wasting time with that… I had thought it was a joke at first but with her coldness for the rest of the afternoon I realized I had just ‘been told’ yet again.

    It has bothered me ever since because to me it seems like she was actively seeking out proof that I was wasting time, this is not the first time she’s found a trivial thing that is a waste of time. It seems that everything I take the initiative to do turns out to be a waste, if she doesn’t tell me to do it (and there is no direct benefit to her) then it isn’t worth doing. Even if it saves me time during the busy periods and gives me something to do in the slow periods – it is a waste of time and unacceptable. Yet if I do not have anything to do, it is just as bad. So how I am supposed to show initiative when she wants me to only do what I am told?

    The worst thing is that there just isn’t enough in my job to keep me busy… it seems like half of my time is spent finding things to do. They gave me as much additional work as possible but once I got the hang of it, it was only an additional hour of work per month. I try to be as quick as I can and then get into situations without work, if I slow down I get given crap because ‘it shouldn’t take that long’. A big problem is that I am the only person to stay in this position past 6 months so no one ever got to the point where they were efficient.

    For the past year my method of dealing with her was to change my internal narrative. I would try not to take anything personally and just brush it off, even if I wanted to roll my eyes and scream I would respond with a sweet smile and nod. But yesterday shook my confidence and I fear I can no longer make myself be positive when it feels like she is a shark circling the water.

    I am ramping up my job search and hoping for the best, but I have no idea how I am supposed to avoid becoming depressed with the entire situation.

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Several things:

      1.) I think you’re blowing this way out of proportion, really and truly. Your boss is telling you to do things her way in a way that benefits her because that’s her job. Why would she want someone working for her who actively undermines her/does things against her policies? It doesn’t mean you’re a bad employee. However, you taking what she said as a joke is likely why she acted coldly.

      2.) I strongly, strongly suggest you see a therapist. It sounds like you’re dealing with some stuff right now that could do with airing out to a professional.

      3.) What exactly, if you don’t mind me asking, did you do on the internet? While I admit it is partially curiosity (killed the cat!), I also want to know what it was to make some judgment on what happened then and what is going on now. Depending on how serious it truly was (from an outsider’s perspective), you might want to job hunt regardless. Or, it may prove that your boss *does* overreact, and a new job would be for the best.

      For right now though, pour yourself a glass of something nice, and take some slow, deep breaths. Sh*t happens to all of us, unfortunately, and if you’ve been here for awhile, you know that people make mistakes. We’re all human! It will be okay.

      1. Sad*

        I know for a fact I am blowing this out of proportion but the way it all happened was just strange and it bothers me.

        One thing I avoided was letting her know I thought she was joking. She has the habit of having ‘serious talks’ in a very lighthearted way, she genuinly seems to be joking but you don’t know until later when you see if you get the cold shoulder or not. So her coldness turned it from curiosity about my actions to a warning.

        The whole internet thing was bad from their perspective as they could only speculate without proof. I had been taking my 2 15 minute breaks at my desk in smaller chunks throughout the day to browse online… but I hadn’t thought to clear this with anyone – I had seen everyone else browsing during the day (includig her) so I thought it was fine. I was just reading news articles, online banking and checked email/facebook. But when someone came ip behind me I instantly exited so that they wouldn’t think I was wasting time or read over my shoulder – I now realize how bad that looked. Since they couldn’t see how long I was on this stuff they assumed it was all day long rather than just my 30 minutes of breaks. It was majorly embarrassing for me, which is why the slightest implication of wasting time bothers me.

        It is an especially sore point now since next week is the anniversary of the whole fiasco! This may also be why she seen it as such a waste of time.

        This just cemented for me that I need a new job and I can’t expect a truly clean slate with my supervisor.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ugh. I hate this stuff. It’s hard, I agree.

          One rule of thumb I have with people like your supervisor is to never, ever assume they are joking. This will save your butt more often than not. Take everything straight, let her explain to you that it was only a joke. You can say, “I wasn’t sure, but I get it now.” or something similar.

          Regarding wasting time. I think you are chaining things together and this may or may not be the case. She may not be remembering the internet episode of one year ago. It could be that she is just a bad manager who micromanages everyone and likes to make people feel inadequate. She may have no recollection of what happened a year ago.
          Sometimes we make a small mistake and it clouds our view of the whole picture. Do you know if any of your coworkers are having similar problems with her? What was she like before the internet incident? I am willing to bet she was a jerky manager before, also.
          Some bosses are very rigid about breaks. Until you 2000 % sure you do not have a boss who is rigid about breaks be absolutely transparent with your break times. There are some jobs where the company could be cited and/or fined for the way you were handling your break times. This is important,so don’t skate by this part: “cited and/or fined”.

          Lastly, this is not a majorly embarrassing thing for a workplace. Many, many people have done far,far worse at work. I am not sure why the “slightest implication” bothers you now. It could be you have a toxic job and that exasperates matters. Toxic places tend to make mountains out of molehills. It could be that you never had a correction before and you are not certain about the how long it should be until life resumes. Looking at the internet should not be an issue a year later. That is why I tend to think toxic boss. A good boss would have long since forgotten the episode.

          I guess going forward, if I was still interested in showing some initiative, I would talk through my idea with the boss before actually implementing it.

          I am not sure if you can avoid becoming depressed. However, hunting for a job and being depressed do not have to be two mutually exclusive things. You can be upset about your current job and still look for a new job. It isn’t easy but it can be done. Cry when you need to, get some exercise (go for walks), try to eat right and try to get some rest. Do all that core stuff that is essential for good health. And keep reading AAM, you will see others fighting their own battles, too, and maybe not feel so alone in fighting yours.

        2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

          Especially after reading what you did, I think I am seeing one thing.

          This is a horrible mismatch, through no fault of your own. Whether or not your boss is a big jerk, or simply not an awesome manager…up for debate.

          The internet thing is astonishing though. If I had concerns about the time an employee spent online, I would go to IT, or check their workloads. If they were getting their work done, I either provide them more, or give them permission to go hog wild (note: I don’t manage anyone, but that’s been my experience).

          You’re definitely letting this one teeny tiny incident color your view though, and you must, must stop doing that. You’re only doing yourself a disservice because overall, you’ve been (it sounds like) a solid employee. Focus on doing your best, listen to your boss and keep your head down, and get job hunting!

  170. Anonyby*

    Here’s an unusual question. What websites do you go on when you have downtime at work? AAM is the gimme answer, but what others? I’ve been going on BBC News, but sometimes I exhaust both and need to find something else SFW.

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      NPR. They have a lot of really interesting articles, and you could read for hours.

    2. AnotherFed*

      The wikipedia rabbit hole! I also read industry news related to my job. I haven’t had time for it in a long while, but there was a pretty interesting all-science news site that I could kill days on.

  171. MsChandandlerBong*

    I have an exempt/non-exempt question. Would a computer support professional making $72K per year be exempt or non-exempt? I looked at a DOL fact sheet about exempt status for computer professionals, and it specifically mentions programmers, systems analysts, and software engineers, but not IT support/helpdesk-type employees (the person in this position sets up new servers, troubleshoots networking and hardware problems, etc.).

    1. AnotherFed*

      Almost certainly exempt. Making that kind of money, they aren’t just following a script that starts at “reboot computer and try again,” and depending on your systems’ complexity, setting up servers and doing network admin can be just as specialized and difficult as writing code in high level languages.

      1. MsChandandlerBong*

        I’m a bit confused about it. I was asking for a friend, who works as an IT support specialist for a computer company. He goes to client sites, sets up servers, troubleshoots issues with MS Outlook, fixes/installs printers and scanners, etc. When he was hired, he was told he was non-exempt and eligible for overtime, so he’s been submitting time sheets with all of his hours and expecting to receive overtime pay. Now he says they owe him $6K in overtime from last year. I told him maybe he’s supposed to be exempt and isn’t owed any overtime, but he said they specifically told him he’s overtime-eligible. I found a letter from the DOL that indicates maybe IT support is non-exempt, so I’m still not sure.

        (If I didn’t get paid overtime for one pay period, I’d be in the boss’s office questioning it, but that’s because I’m broke. My friend makes a good salary, is single with no children, and saves almost everything he makes, so he has the luxury of letting $6,000 in OT pay go by without inquiring about it. I told him not to do that again, though!)

  172. BBBizAnalyst*

    Just wanted to post that I started a new job after being in a toxic workplace for a year. I was in a role at a prior company close to 4 years but reached my ceiling before. Then, landed job at toxic city thinking it would be a “next step up”. I was mistaken.

    Anyway, new job is really great and my coworkers and broader team are all smart, helpful and just a pleasure to be around. (My last job, I had to work with a woman who had been at the huge multinational company for 30+ years and decided that she didn’t want to cross train so she gave incorrect instructions and denied ever doing it while her manager and my senior manager turned a blind eye… so yeah…)

    Even though I was at my last job for a year, I can tell that I have residual anxiety/PTSD from my last role. After thinking I flubbed a work assignment this week and thinking I was going to be reprimanded. Did that happen? Nope! My manager understands that I am new and really took the time to explain the process and the big picture. I’m also being staffed on some really interesting projects for our division. Of course, I’ll be shadowing for the next 6-9 months but I am really excited every day that I wake up and get to go in to a healthy work environment doing what it is I love without having to look over my shoulder or wonder if I am being gaslighted, etc.

    It’s really great and I guess my post is just to encourage people that there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

  173. Blake A*

    Anyone with experience in the international trade or finance sector advise me on a possible career change?
    I’m from outside the US, recently graduated with a bachelor’s degree in international trade, with 1 year’s worth of work experience in that field. I am interested both in the sales and banking aspect of international trade, because I would like to eventually have a position that involves frequent international travel; and also in finance, even though I haven’t tried any related jobs (I do invest in stocks and bonds in my country, have some financial education and enjoy keeping up to date with financial news).

    I’m currently job searching in my home country, keeping in mind that I want to move to North America/Europe eventually and want my experience to be useful there, and I don’t know which field I should go for.

    I’ve browsed job search sites abroad and it seems that “International Trade” is not a field in itself as it is in my home country, as far as I can see it is more specialized in logistics or customs compliance (which I don’t like). I can’t seem to find a lot of jobs related purely to international sales. Could anyone provide any insight into this? Maybe I’m not using the correct search terms. It looks like finance roles are way more abundant, and if that were the case it might influence my decision.

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