open thread – March 18-19, 2016

by Alison Green on March 18, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,687 comments }

{ 1,687 comments… read them below }

  1. Commute chat?*

    I have a 45 – 55 minute each way commute, and I’m really struggling with the idea of doing it long term. It’s been a little under a year and I find it chipping away at my quality of life. Unfortunately, it looks like it’ll be for at least another couple of years (possibly longer, depending on whether I can find work in the city where I live/whether my partner becomes OK with moving to the city where I work). I think I’m in need of some context for my own situation and maybe some ideas of how to make it better. Could we get a thread going with some comments on…

    1. How long is your commute?
    2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it?
    3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
    4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes?

    5. Bonus: If you and your partner have children…how does it work for school emergencies, doctors appts, etc? I don’t have kids yet, but would like to in the next few years. My parents both worked from home, so this was never an issue and I truly have no frame of reference for how it works when both parents work outside of the home.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      This is me every day. I chose it thinking it wouldn’t be awful and it wouldn’t be if other work factors weren’t in play. There isn’t currently any option for telecommuting. The most I can get to remotely is email. The main issue is traffic volume in one particular area. I’m still within the same metro area that we both live. It’s not the only reason I’m looking at 9 months in but it’s part of it. It was a mistake on my part to think the commute wouldn’t “be that bad.”

      We do have a kid and since hubby is closest, he has to do any emergency pick ups. He works in a secured space and currently doesn’t have any internet access (or phone), so let’s keep our fingers crossed that the kid stays well until he does.

    2. super anon*

      1. 15-20 minute depending on the day
      2. I don’t love it – ideally I’d live near where I work so I could walk, but that isn’t an option for me. I used to take the bus and it was almost an hour door to door to go 12 km, now I have a car and it’s drastically shortened my commute time.
      3. When I took the bus I would read/listen to music/etc, so it felt like I wasn’t wasting an hour of my time each way. Now I talk on the phone while I drive.
      4. We picked a neighbourhood that was in the middle of both of our locations. We’re going to be buying soon and that’s going to add about 15 minutes and a bridge crossing to our commute and I’m not excited.

    3. Anna No Mouse*

      I spent 3 years with a 50-60 minute commute, including throughout my pregnancy in the middle of summer and through the first 18 months of my son’s life.

      My husband works from home 2-3 days a week, but the other days, his commute is even longer than mine was. We were fortunate enough to have family nearby who could pick up our son in the case of sickness, etc.

      I tolerated the commute as long as I did because: a) I absolutely LOVED the people I worked with and the work that I did, and b) I was able to listen to an hour of NPR and catch up on news while I drove.

      That said, when an opportunity arose last year for me to take a job with better pay and a 10-20 minutes commute, I snapped that right up. My husband and I are in the process of putting our house on the market, and we’re STILL trying to figure out the best place for us to live.

    4. dancer*

      1. 30-45 minutes, depending on traffic. It’s taken me 90 minutes though on a particularly bad day.
      2. It’s about the longest I think I could do for a driving commute. I used to have a 45- 60 minute commute on transit which I found much less stressful.
      3. I work early hours so that despite my commute length, I am home by 5. I find that helps because I feel like I still have time for hobbies and activities in the evening.
      4. I just have myself to worry about, so I haven’t had to deal with this issue. Also my parents have pretty much always worked in the same location, so it was never an issue for them either.
      5. I don’t have direct experience with this, but from talking to my coworkers, they have one parent working close to home/school/doctors etc who is responsible for school emergencies. They also have one parent (not necessarily the same parent) who can work from home so that they can handle scheduled appointments.

    5. Erin*

      1. 30 minutes in the morning, up to 45 minutes in the afternoon.

      2. I tolerate it. I had a 10 to 15 minute commute for many years and sort of feel like I had to deal with this eventually and now it’s here. I would realistically be willing to commute up to an hour for a really great job.

      3. I’m a big reader, and I’ve gotten into audio books. I want to get into podcasts as well. I got a cord to connect my phone to my car (I didn’t have a smartphone until a few months ago, so, big deal for me) so I can listen right from my phone. It helps me feel like I’m making more use of that time. Also, if I can, I run errands during my lunch break to avoid stopping on the way home.

      4. He has it easier – he’s got about a 10 minute commute. We tried to be centralized in where we live, but obviously he has the better end of the deal. But we took other things into consideration, like proximity to family – we’re now closer to most of his family members, and just down the street from his brother’s family, which we love. But we have discussed the possibility of one of us getting a different job and what would happen, and he’s very open to moving and having his commute extended if need be.

      5. We don’t yet, but I too worry about this. Check in at some point in the future and I’ll keep ya posted. ;)

      1. Daisy Steiner*

        When I had a 45-50 minute one-way commute, and my husband had a 10-minute walk, it was his extra job (on top of a ~50/50 split of the rest of the chores) to do all the dishes before he left in the mornings. It felt like it evened things out a bit.

        1. Jessica Stevenson*

          Great idea and great username–your namesake was also a big fan of the “rota,” as I recall.

        2. Erin*

          Oh, I am so totally showing him this thread. ;)

          The thing is, is even with the commute difference he’s a boss/part business owner and tends to work longer days than I do but I’ll see what I can do. :P

      2. Marillenbaum*

        Erin, since you mentioned you want to get in to podcasts, I wanted to offer some recommendations, since I’m kind of a podcast junkie. Right now, I listen to Awesome Etiquette (from the Emily Post Institute), RuPaul’s What’s the Tee?, Another Round with Heben and Tracy (pop culture/feminism), Death Sex & Money (WNYC), Modern Love (like the NYT column), Burnt Toast (Food52), Serial, Welcome to Night Vale (fictional small town radio, like Prairie Home Companion meets the X-Files), Memory Palace (historical), Tom and Lorenzo’s PopStyle OpinionFest (celebrity, pop culture, fashion), Dear Sugar (advice), The Allusionist (etymology and language), Lore (history/horror), and Happier with Gretchen Rubin (advice/social science). As you can see, there are a ton of really great options, and since different podcasts post new episodes with different frequencies, there’s pretty much always something new to listen to. If you have an iPhone, there’s a podcast app already installed; if you have an Android phone, I would recommend either Soundcloud or Stitchr. Good luck!

          1. Stella Maris*

            More podcast recommendations if you’re interested:
            -You Must Remember This (secret/forgotten history of Hollywood)
            -Desert Island Discs from the BBC
            -Serial (start with season one) and the adjacent podcasts Undisclosed, the Serial Serial (AV Club), the Slate Serial Spoiler Special.
            -Happier with Gretchen Rubin (as mentioned above)
            -I Don’t Even Own a Television (about bad books)

        2. Qmatilda*

          Based on your podcasts – can I recommend Futility Closet? A little bit like Lore (less story telling more into the details) plus lateral thinking puzzles. truly wonderful.

          1. ithinkyouhavemystapler*

            Oh I love lore, I’m going to have to check this out! Have either of you listened to Tanis or the Black Tapes Podcast? I enjoy the creep factor. Limetown is another one. I liked The Message well enough but thought the ending was a little meh. Those four are all serial stories.

            If you like language podcasts, I like Lexicon Valley a lot.

            I really enjoy history podcasts too…Myths and Legends, Stuff You Missed in History Class, and The British History Podcast are my favorites.

    6. Dawn*

      1- 3-6 minutes driving; 3 if no stoplights are hit, 6 if they are/ 20 minutes walking
      2- Love it love it love it. Best thing I have ever done for my stress levels with regards to work
      3- it doesn’t, because it’s so short!
      4- back when we first moved up here we picked where we were based on it being a good price and being 5 miles away from my husband’s job with an easy drive. We’ve never looked at working anywhere that would involve more than a 20-minute commute, which I understand is totally unheard of here in DC. I think commutes longer than 30 minutes are insane- there’s significant research that shows that a long commute directly impacts health and well-being and I would rather live in a smaller place with a shorter commute than live on a farm three counties away and spend 2-3 hours every day in the car.

      1. Christy*

        That’s fascinating! I really need the green space near our apartment, so the hour-long commute is worth it to me. And I live a mile outside of the District, and my office is in Federal Triangle–so it’s not like it’s three counties away.

      2. Anansi*

        I’m in DC too and it’s great. My husband and I can both walk to work. For me, it’s about 20 minutes by metro or 30 minutes walking.

    7. HeyNonnyNonny*

      1. Mine is about a solid hour door-to-door.
      2. I actually don’t mind it that much.
      3. I am extremely lucky– I rely on public transportation the whole trip, so I get a lot of reading done. A lot. I love to read, so this is actually a bit of a benefit for me. I also share most of the commute with my spouse, so we can talk and hang out.
      4. Our home was chosen for the commute! It’s on the same subway line (no transfers) but far enough away that housing is affordable.

      1. KR*

        I love the idea of taking public transportation – there’s a bus line right at the end of my street and I know it rolls right past my work. I get so carsick though, I think it would cause me more pain than my commute. So sad.

    8. Anonnn*

      I live in New York, and my 45-minute commute never felt long or unusual, and this thread has me wondering if there’s something wrong with me. That’s just … What people do, i always thought? Curious to see how others feel.

      1. Christy*

        Same here–I’m in the DC area and my hour-long commute strikes me as standard. My girlfriend’s 90-minute commute is only like slightly long in my mind.

      2. Parfait*

        Same here, from Los Angeles. I’m actually an aberration in that: I only drive 25 minutes to work (can be 30-45 in the evening), I don’t have to get on any freeways, and it’s a reverse commute with most of the traffic heading the other direction. My eyes bugged a little at the person who said that 30 minutes was merely tolerable. To me, that’s awesome.

        In my last job it took me an hour to get there on a good day and I had to allow an hour and a half for traffic. And getting home, it was anybody’s guess how long it would take. That was awful. I developed permanent shoulder pain from being so tense. Location was a big reason why I took my current job. It gave me time in my life to do things like exercise and make dinner.

        When people ask me what the best neighborhood in LA to live in is, I say “One that is close to where you work.”

        1. ann perkins*

          omg yes. LA has the worst traffic ever. I live in Orange County and my commute is like 15 minutes, which is amazing. I hate driving and traffic so I need to live close to work.

        2. non-profit manager*

          I am also in the Los Angeles area and managed to avoid a commute for most of my working life. I now have one that is approximately 45 minutes each way, often longer, and I drive only 15 miles. Because it’s only 15 miles, I’ve tried all combinations of freeways and surface streets, but cannot get it much below that due to traffic volume. Where I am, there is no concept of reverse commute; it’s awful in all directions. And the traffic is awful in the morning from approximately 5:30am to 9:30am (I have tried shifting my working hours to no avail).

          1. pumpkin scone*

            Oh, yeah. When I moved in with my partner in LA, I thought, how bad can it be? Very. I amused my coworkers by creating a matrix: what if I took a train, then bus? What about freeway vs surface streets? What if I did a combo? What if I took the bus, then the other train? It was all awful.

            I love podcasts and NPR, but found if I was driving, the traffic was intense enough I couldn’t spare the attention. And all the public transportation options required multiple changes, so I never really settled down enough to read.

            I ended up taking another job.

        3. SJ*

          When I had a long commute, about as long as your long one, I had the worst stress headaches and body pain from being so tense and gripping the wheel so hard. I was living at home at the time and my mother would massage my shoulders and be shocked at all the knots. I hated that commute.

        4. Charlotte mousse*

          1. 15-45 minutes, depending on traffic and time of day.
          2. I tolerate it, sometimes like it, sometimes dislike it.
          3. I call my grandmother every morning and usually other relatives in the evenings (due to time differences). I also listen to music, or sometimes audio CD books from the library. My husband has the same commute and we sometimes carpool, which is really nice. He has different hours, so we often don’t carpool. He listens to language learning CD’s from the library, calls his family, or listens to audio books.
          4. We decided to live in a neighborhood we love, with a relatively reverse commute (in LA) and so far, it works for both of us. No kids yet, so I’m not sure how we’re going to work that out. We each have relative flexibility about hours, and his more so to work from home, so that’s all TBD.

      3. Anoners*

        Yeah, I think maybe commute times increase depending on the city. Most my coworkers have 1.5 hour commutes each way (yikes).

        1. afiendishthingy*

          It’s absolutely dependent on where you live, different people have different tolerances, and your norms can change. My commute is 15 minutes without traffic, rarely more than 30, which is probably short – average for this area. My hours are flexible so I can often avoid traffic. I also am out in the field visiting clients several hours a week, and those visits are usually between 3:30 and 6:30 pm, so traffic is a factor there. Even then it doesn’t usually take more than 45 minutes to get home.

          At my last job my commute was 35 minutes to an hour, and that was only tolerable. I wouldn’t want a longer commute than that.

          I enjoy driving when the weather is nice and there’s no traffic, which fortunately accounts for a reasonable amount of my commute and client visits, but I really don’t have much tolerance for sitting in traffic.

          1. Anoners*

            I agree. I also think that your surroundings during your commute are the biggest factor. I had to take a 25 minute commute via streetcar for a few months and it was the just the most terrible experience ever. Whereas I had about a 40 minute driving commute that was stress free and enjoyable.

      4. Stella Maris*

        Same. I’d say 30-45 minutes is the short end of average here in the Toronto (Canada) area. In 2014 I believe the average Greater Toronto Area commute time was over an hour. (I’m not sure if they were counting only driving, only transit, both, or combinations, though.)

        1. Snazzy Hat*

          A few years ago my s.o. & I took a vacation to Toronto (we live in WNY, but he isn’t from here & had not been to my favourite city until that trip). Our hotel was in Scarborough a few buildings away from a bus stop. That hour-long commute (a bus and three trains) into the city was so much fun I considered it part of the day’s activities!

      5. Stephanie (HR)*

        Same here, I was working in Stamford (just outside NYC) and my commute was 90 minutes door to door, and one hour of it was train. I was surrounded by people with 2-hour commutes or longer (they headed all the way into the city). It was very normal.

        If it weren’t for the train, though, I wouldn’t have been able to tolerate it long. The strain of concentrating in that kind of traffic and stress of never knowing when the traffic would make late; that I could not have done. As it was, the 90 minutes was a bit long, and 3 hours out of the day for just travel was excessive. I wasn’t able to work remotely while on the train as many are, so it really did suck the time out of the day. I was never outside in the daylight. I had to do everything on the weekends.

        My commute now is 6 minutes. Delightfully short. I can go home for lunch and see my baby, which is the best perk ever. It’s really about balance. What do you value the most? Your time, your location/surroundings, do you hate driving, do you have access to public transportation… it all has to factor in to what you want out of your life and what you have the flexibility to do (move, change jobs, etc.)

      6. starsaphire*

        45 minutes would be super-short to me, but I live in Silicon Valley. Depending on where you live and work, a 45-minute commute in Silicon Valley might only get you a few miles.

        My current job is two hours, two buses in the morning and an hour in the evening because my DH picks me up. We average about a 12-hour day between working and commuting. This to me is wonderful and amazing, because my LAST job had a commute of 2.5 hours EACH WAY, on top of a ten-hour workday.

        No kids, obviously, because if you’re a 2.5-hour train-and-bus ride away from home when your kid gets sick or hurt… yeah, no.

      7. Sprinkles*

        I also live in New York and my commute is an hour door-to-door. But it doesn’t feel that bad. 40 minutes is on the train, so I can read or listen to something, 20 is either on a bus or walking, depending on the weather.

        When I was a kid, my mom had about a 15-minutes commute, while my dad’s was an hour. I also had an hour-long commute to one job when I drove back in my home state.

        I guess I’ve always considered 45-60 minutes to be a really normal commute to work.

      8. Rusty Shackelford*

        Here in my little part of flyover country, a 45-minute commute would get me 45 miles away. An hour is considered doable but unfortunate. Anything over an hour gets you a raised eyebrow. (Mine is about 4 minutes. Double that if I come in at 8 instead of 7. And I know doubling 4 minutes is ridiculous.)

      9. JMegan*

        Yes, I think that’s something that’s missing from the original question (through no fault of the OP’s, but it does provide some useful context!) Average commute times can vary so much, depending on whether you’re in an urban/suburban/rural/etc area.

        In any case:
        1. I live and work in downtown Toronto, and my commute is about 30-45 minutes depending on the state of the public transit system that day. As Stella Maris said, this is the low end of average for this area. Anything shorter would be unusual, and lots of people have commutes that are much longer.

        2. I like it, because with a full-time job outside the home, and two little kids inside the home, it’s often the only alone time I get in a day!

        3. It’s pretty much a non-issue for me – almost every job will have some sort of commute involved, so it’s just something I have to do. I read, or play games on my phone, or just relax while I’m in transit.

        4. Critical. We don’t have a car, and I need to get the children to day care in the morning before work, so that needs to be factored into the commute time as well. I wouldn’t apply for a job outside of a specific geographic area, for this reason.

        5. It’s all me for school emergencies etc, both because my work is closer to the school than my partners, and because I have the most flexible job. Again, this is something we factor into the planning every time one of us changes jobs.

      10. NJ Anon*

        I worked in NY years ago. An hour commute sitting on a train is much different then an hour commute driving.

      11. Snargulfuss*

        It’s totally normal for a busy metro area. I spent about five years working in DC and even though I only lived about 5 miles away, it still took me a good 40 min or more (depending on metro) to get to work. For a while I biked to work; it took about the same amount of time but I killed two birds with one stone by getting my exercise in. For a few years I lived further out by at a metro stop where the trains turned around, so I’d get an empty car and a guaranteed seat going into work every day. I’d just read for forty minutes, and it was heaven. Then I moved to a different area and had to fight to squeeze onto a packed car every day; it was the worst.

        Now I live in a different state and my drive to work is about 15 minutes. It felt so weird the first few weeks to DRIVE to work!

      12. alter_ego*

        yeah, I’m actually finding this pretty surprising. I work in Boston and live in a suburb. I take the train most days, and it’s an hour on my way in, about an hour and fifteen on my way back. If I drive? It can be up to two hours. I don’t really consider a commute “long” until it hits the 90 minute mark. If I wanted to live walking distance from my workplace, I’d have to pay about 400,000 for a 450 square foot studio (real price of the condos down the street). If I want to live 30 minutes away? In one direction, it might not be as expensive, but I value not fearing for my life. In the other? Just as expensive. Outside the city is really the only way to do it if you ever want to own property, or live in anything other than a triple-decker with roommates.

        1. Rob Lowe can't read*

          Do we work at the same place? Fancy condos to the left of me, methadone clinic to the right. (I am stuck in the middle with both jokers and clowns.)

        2. INFJ*

          Lol. My mind went to Marlborough Street vs. Roxbury vs. Newton (in that order). It really is tough to find that balance of cost and comfort.

      13. Honeybee*

        In larger cities, longer commutes are more commonplace, I think, especially where public transit is ubiquitous. 45 minutes on the subway when I can read a book just seems different from 45 minutes in a car stuck in traffic. I live in Seattle and my 25-30 minute commute is a thing of wonder to most of my coworkers.

      14. Rebecca in Dallas*

        In the Dallas-Fort Worth area, it’s not unusual for people to have long commutes. A lot of my coworkers drive 45 min- 1 hour each way. The metroplex is huge and there is a ton of suburban sprawl. The good school districts and affordable housing are all in the suburbs.

        My husband and I are not suburb people and both hate driving, so we have chosen our jobs and our house within the same general area. I don’t *love* my job but my short commute (less than 10 minutes) is a huge perk.

      15. Not So NewReader*

        I think it matters where you live. I had a supposedly 35 minute commute, if I was lucky.Usually it was about 45 minutes. Folks around me said, “Oh that’s nothing.” And they pointed to individuals who work in NYC everyday. That’s 5 plus hours by car, but they use the train. No way in h— would I ever consider this commute.

        I think it also matters if you are going to a good job and building a career vs going to a crappy job and feeling like it’s going no where. Even little things like is there anyone at work that cares if you had trouble in the blinding snow storm vs getting the silent treatment for being a half hour late because of snow. These little things add up FAST. They can make a commute feel oh-so-much longer.

        Currently, in bad weather my commute is about 45 minutes, 20 minutes in good weather. I enjoy my drive now. I also enjoy leaving the house a half hour before my start time, as opposed to my previous situation where I left 1 hour before my start time. It was too long a day for not too much.

    9. K.*

      I worked with a woman who had a rule with her husband that only one of them could have a long commute because of childcare issues (her husband’s commute was the longer one then but that hasn’t always been the case). I know with another set of friends I have, she’s a SAHM now (not entirely by choice) but when she was working, her commute was a hour and 15. Her husband’s was 20, tops. So I think if possible, you try to balance it so one’s is shorter.

      I’ve had a 45-minute commute for a while. I’d say I tolerate it, but this is the max I’m willing to go. My old job was that long because of mileage, my new one because of traffic – it’s half the mileage as my old job but takes the same amount of time. Either I sit in traffic or I go a random roundabout way (I prefer the latter because at least I’m moving). I deal by keeping myself entertained with podcasts and audio books. I also will stop and do errands on the way home; breaks things up a little. I would love it if I could walk to my next job though! I also think public transportation makes a difference. Driving, I have to be engaged more than I do in PT. I’d look at a 45 minute pt commute differently – that would be a nice chunk of reading time!

      1. Kyrielle*

        Yes. The worst part of my previous long commute for our parenting and family life was the time when my husband’s company had him at a client site nearly as far away from our home and the kids’ schools as my job was. There was always the knowledge that if we got a call to come get them, they’d have to wait 30-45 minutes before we were there. It happened a few times. It felt horrible.

        When that piece of work ended for him, and he was only 15 minutes away (a reliable 15 minutes that never ran over), I did a happy dance. And now that I’m maybe 5 minutes away? Happier. Getting one commute as short as possible is _really_ helpful if you have children. That person has to be prepared to be the go to person for emergencies, though, or you don’t get the benefit.

        1. KR*

          That was hard for my dad when he was working an hour away and it was just him and me. Luckily if I got sick, I had permission to walk home from school and I lived just around the corner from the school but if I ever got seriously ill or needed him, I don’t know what he would have done. Just sped, I guess.

          1. TL -*

            I had a friend who got extremely ill in college, 3+ hours from home, and her dad got to the emergency room right at 2 hours after the ambulance was called.
            She was fine after a long treatment and she had friends with her the whole time in the ER, but I was impressed.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        K’s rule of thumb is a good one even for those without children. I cannot count how many times I came home for something or stayed home because of a problem with the house. My husband could be over 100 miles away from home and have a two hour drive, plus he had crazy hours. There is no way both of us could have had jobs that were that demanding.

    10. Sandy*

      Mine used to be a less than 20 minute walk door to door. Through a park.

      Now it’s 60-90 minutes by car. I hate it. I hate every minute of it.

      1. Snazzy Hat*

        re: “through a park”, my father had this commute when I was a wee sprite:
        1. Leave apartment complex.
        2. Cross the street.
        3. Walk about a minute or two.
        4. Walk through employee parking lot.
        5. Enter workplace.

        One of those fabulous commutes where “oh crap I’m running late!” requires *actually running* in order to rectify the situation.

    11. Allison*

      1. If I leave at 7AM, it’s 45 minutes. If I leave later than 7, it can be as long as an hour. Same goes for the evening commute, if I leave at 4 it takes a little over 45 minutes, but it can take an hour if I leave at 4:30.

      2. I tolerate it. It’s not the most fun part of my day but my music gets me through it.

      3. I have an early schedule, which means getting up early but it also means getting home by 4:45-5:30, leaving plenty of time for dance classes, social activities, or personal time.

      4. Never lived with a partner, but if I were to move, I’d want to find something with a commute that’s the same length or shorter, I wouldn’t want a longer commute unless I can work from home more often.

    12. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      1. About 15-20 min.
      2. I hate any driving, but it’s tolerable.
      3. N/A
      4. We lucked out and bought a house without really considering our workplaces – but his commute is 4 miles and mine is 8.

    13. nofelix*

      My commute is similar, sometimes longer if it’s busy:
      * I aim to leave work early once a week, even if it means working longer other days. The extra time is invaluable for my mental health and getting stuff done at home.
      * I prepare entertainment for the route so it doesn’t feel like such a time sink. I watch movies on my phone – just headphones in, ignore the other commuters and focus on the movie.
      * I try to keep angry feelings at bay. Being stressed at the transport system or other commuters for two hours a day is really bad for my general mood and energy levels.

    14. Christy*

      1. 55 minutes each way. It’s all on public transit. Luckily, I only have to do it 4x/month.
      2. I dislike it because it cuts into my gym time and energy after I get home. Overall, though, it’s not intolerable. If I had coworkers in my office and not just people who work for a totally different division, I’d go in more often.
      3. I just do it. I read on the train and that helps me enjoy the time. When I used to drive, I would chat with family the whole time. That kept the time fulfilling.
      4. We live where we like to live and just deal with the commutes. Her commute is even longer than mine–at least 90 minutes each way. We could, in theory, live 20 minutes from each of our jobs. But we love our neighborhood and don’t want to move to the other area. Plus she doesn’t know how long she’ll stay at her job.
      5. We don’t have kids, but even if I worked in the office every day, I would be the one to handle most kid situations. My job is far more flexible than hers and so it would be far easier for me to handle things. Even if we lived ten minutes from her work and an hour from mine, it would still likely be me handling things.

    15. AVP*

      I take the subway every day, 25-30 minutes. I don’t mind it as I can read and don’t have to pay a lot of attention, and I can bike home if the weather is nice. So it becomes solo-time to do things I already like doing.

      However, I recently moved and this is a shorter commute from what I used to have, but I think I prefer the old one better! It was 45 minutes but less crowded and more seating room and I didn’t have to transfer through one of the craziest stations in the city. So I guess the amount of people one deals with along the way is a factor I hadn’t thought of before this.

    17. MostCommonLastName*

      1. My commute’s about the same as yours, 45-50 minutes depending on traffic

      2. I don’t really mind it. I like having time to myself and I listen to my music as I’m driving. I also use it as a time to work through story plots (I’m an author outside of my day job)

      3. For a while, before I became bogged down with a bunch of other things, I was taking broadsword lessons in the city I work in once a week. That gave me something fun to do outside of work that made the commute worth it

      4. I wasn’t working in this city when my partner and I bought a house. He works ten minutes away from where we live and at the time, so was I. I accepted this job knowing that I would have this commute. I’m the more mobile job-wise of the two of us, so it makes sense for us to focus on his work when we eventually decide to move.

      5. No kids, but we’re in the same situation where it will likely be in the next few years. My partner’s trying to switch his work schedule, and if he could do that, he’d be home well before school’s would get out and I would be able to take care of things in the morning. But that’s not something we need to worry about quite yet

    18. oldfashionedlovesong*

      1. 15-20 minutes depending on the day and traffic patterns. I moved here for this job and I specifically chose this rural area to live in for the short commute to my office, completely neglecting the fact that as a single 20-something I might be happier living in the major metropolitan area 45 minutes further away. I’ve been here 2 years now, have no friends, talk to no one on the weekends, and have gained a lot of weight because I have no one to play sports with and find it so easy to just shut myself up in my apartment instead of going to the gym. Which means the answer to 2 is…
      2. I tolerate it because its so beautifully short, even though it means I have to deal with all of the wahmbulance stuff above. Last year when my lease ended I had the opportunity to move to the city but I couldn’t bear the thought of the hour-plus train and bus commute my colleagues who live there have, so I renewed my lease in the place I hate.
      3. I don’t know, actually.
      4. I’m single, and as I mentioned in 1 I literally chose this place sight unseen when moving for this job, just for the proximity to work. I regret it.

      1. Confused Publisher*

        Are you me? I made the same choices, and hated it, until my husband happened to me and we moved just that bit closer to big city and further from my office.

      2. SJ*

        Have you tried using an app like MeetUp to meet people? I haven’t actually gone to any social events yet (ironically, due to a busy month or so with friends who live in other cities), but my friends who live in my city are all basically 80 at the age of 28 and never want to do anything but hang inside and watch movies, so I’m determined to meet new people who want to go out and do things.

        1. oldfashionedlovesong*

          I have! I am naturally introverted — which of course doesn’t preclude loneliness, so I really tried/am trying hard with Meetup. I joined pretty much every group in my area, having drawn a pretty big radius to define “my area” and have attended maybe 5-10 things in a little under 2 years. They’ve been fine for the most part, but I guess I just haven’t met anyone whom I really clicked with. I think, again, if I lived in the major city 45 minutes away I’d have better luck with the Meetup groups, but out here there aren’t too many groups (and there isn’t really much to do either, so it’s always either movies, dinner, or drinks, which gets boring after awhile).

    19. Jinx*

      My commute averages 20 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the afternoon (I take slightly different routes there and back to avoid problem areas).

      Commuting is generally the worst part of my day – people drive like maniacs here and I have driving anxiety. I handle it by plugging my mp3 player into the car and loading up an upbeat playlist, so I get distracted by good music and don’t think about how much I hate driving. I also consider that it could be worse – one of my coworkers has a 90 minute commute after the move, and I have no idea how he does it.

      The living situation is interesting in my case. I knew when I accepted the job that I didn’t want to take the major highway to work, so I chose an apartment close to my office (~five minute drive). About six months later my team was moved to an office further out, so now I have to take that highway and we’re paying a high rent for no reason. :S My husband and I actually found a new place to live that should cut my commute in half and avoid the highway, and I’m reaaaally excited.

    20. Riley*

      1. 40-50 minutes
      2. I tolerate it. It’s actually a slight improvement over my previous commute, and it’s definitely not the worst it could be in terms of DC commuting.
      3. I ride the bus, and I spend the time reading/listening to podcasts/relaxing. I would probably hate it a lot more if it were 40 minutes of driving.
      4. It’s just me, but my workplace is in a very expensive neighborhood with no metro stop, so I knew I would either have to live on the bus line that goes directly there or live on certain metro lines, and then take the bus. I limited my apartment search to places that were on those lines and close to the transfer stop, but I let the commute be just one factor–ie, I could have found somewhere on the direct bus line, but it would have meant being far from other things I wanted.

    21. Anon for always*

      Great question.

      My commute is 20 minutes and I love it.

      I used to commute for almost an hour (each way), and I did so for over five years. I found it to be completely soul sucking. One of the many reasons I stay at my current job is because of the great commute.

    22. Master Bean Counter*

      I have a 30 minute commute and I’m using it to learn a foreign language. But I’ve never been much of a city dweller, so a 30 minute commute has always been the norm for me. My Partner is a stay at home type. So he’s in charge of making sure everything runs well on the home front. With my friends it usually works that whom ever works closest to the kids ends up with the responsibility of of school emergencies. Although when I worked near the school where my nieces and granddaughter went, I was listed as an emergency contact because I could be there the quickest.

          1. Charlotte mousse*

            My husband uses Pimsler, too! But he borrows the CD’s from the public library, another option to consider.

    23. Kelly L.*

      Roughly 40 minutes by bus. I tolerate it. It does get long, but I read for most of it.

      Right now it’s the best choice for me because Apartment in Cheap Town + Bus Pass is massively cheaper than Apartment in the Town Where I Actually Work.

      I currently live in the same metro area as my partner but don’t actually cohabitate with him. The decision we face in the next few years is whether I should move to his part of the area and job search (my current job is civil service and requires me to live in-state, and the metro area has parts in two states), or whether he should move to my part of the area, where I keep the job but we’re farther from most of our social life. It’s a tough one.

    24. ThatGirl*

      I have a 30-mile commute that takes me 4o to 55 minutes on average, depending on traffic. My husband has a 25-mile commute that takes him about 35 minutes.

      We’ve both worked at our respective jobs for awhile and they are on opposite ends of the metro area, so the best we could ever hope for was roughly splitting the difference. The good news for me is that I now work from home 2 days a week. I don’t mind the commute in general unless there’s bad weather or really bad traffic, but my schedule is also flexible so I am able to avoid the worst of rush hour.

      We don’t have kids, we do have a dog but he’s not a real problem. :)

      In a perfect world I’d love a shorter commute, but I’ve moved in the past to be closer to work and then lost the job/it moved. So that sucked. I decided from here on out to just focus on places I don’t mind driving to (30 miles is about my limit, I’d say) and live in a place I like coming home to.

    25. LawCat*

      Right now, my “commute” is a 12-15 minute walk. Love love love it. My husband’s is a 10-15 minute drive, which is great. We moved to where we did so we could downgrade to one car and I could walk to work. I listen to audio books while I walk (free from my local library on an app called Overdrive).

      Prior to that, I had a 30-45 minute public transit commute. This was okay as I could read during this time.

      I once had a 50-60 minute driving commute (each way) and I ended up quitting. Just hated the commute too much. 20-30 mins is about my max tolerance for a driving commute. I would typically listen to the news. That was pre-smartphones though. Today, I’d probably listen to audio books on an app. I find it really helps pass the time.

    26. Court*

      1. 10-15 minutes. Maybe 20 during rush hour?
      2. I honestly love it. I don’t have a whole lot of time to myself other than that commute, so I think it’s a really nice way to chill out, listen to music, do whatever to get you to a better peace of mind (this is especially needed after work some days).

      Those are really the only two questions that applied to me. But I think your bigger question here is what would wear on you more: uprooting to move to a closer location, find a new job with a shorter commute, or continue dealing with the current commute? If you can’t stand the commute but you know it would grate on you even more to house hunt and move or job search, then it might be a better idea to try finding a happier perspective on the long commute. But if you decide the commute is absolutely intolerable, it would be better to either find a shorter commute or move closer to work.

    27. Stella Maris*

      1. How long is your commute?
      45-60 minutes — all on subways. Sometimes I get out a couple of stops early and walk and it doesn’t add more then about 15 minutes.
      My previous commute was, on its best day, 59 minutes. Usually more like 90-120. All on buses, and it was awful and was one of the main factors I left that job. (It was a good stepping stone but the commute sucked every single day.)

      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it?
      I don’t mind it most days. (When service is good and consistent I hardly mind it at all.) I live at the end of the line so I (for the moment) always get a seat in the mornings. (Not so on the way home.)

      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
      I don’t understand the question. It’s just how I get to work? Other people are talking about reading and podcasts and I agree with those things but also, it’s just a thing I do. One thing we do is try to have date nights on Fridays where we stay downtown for dinner and then go home, so we avoid the rush-hour crush. That’s always nice.

      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes?
      We decided we wanted to live near enough to a subway line that we could walk to a station in 10-15 minutes. We’ve both changed jobs a few times without moving. We are talking about moving closer in to downtown — in part for lifestyle reasons and in theory to shorten the commute, although I think it would take me about the same amount of time, just in a different mode (streetcar or bus vs. subway). BUT – if we lived downtown I could walk in a reasonable amount of time if I wanted or needed to. Currently it is a little over 15km (~10 miles).

    28. Kyrielle*

      That was my commute until just last year – answering as of last May, in case it helps:

      1) Going in it was 45 minutes, home at the end of the day could be 45-90 minutes depending on luck (rarely 90).

      2) Hated the commute, but learned to work with it.

      3) I had my life take over it a bit. First I negotiated a modified schedule (which not everyone can do), but second I started listening to Coursera courses as I drove so I was learning! (I downloaded the videos to my phone, and then just listened to them – put the screen face-down so I wouldn’t be tempted to look. Most courses worked fine without the visual component, a few didn’t.) I have friends who listen to audio books and/or podcasts.

      Planning to take advantage of it – a quick stop at a conveniently-along-the-way commute on the way home adds more time (ugh!) but cuts out time needed later in the week and saves money, sometimes. (There was a good grocery store with good prices that was on that commute.)

      4. Sigh. We bought a house 5 minutes from his place of employment and 15 minutes from mine. Then my company moved our office to the back end of nowhere, and his went bankrupt and he found another job. So neither of us have an ideal commute.

      5. It’s not too bad. If you have to, one of you takes time off work to deal with planned things (doctor’s appointments, etc.), and one or the other of you books off and dashes to the kid for emergencies. Unless one of us had just newly started a job, we split those duties. If one or both of you have a long commute, it’s key to look at the logistics and figure out who handles the routine drop-off/pick-up activities; it’s frequently useful to have one parent do drop-off and the other do pick-up (even if one is in the same town), just to even it out.

      My husband and I trade off for emergency pick-ups like illness, generally, so neither of us misses too much work. I’m a little more likely to handle them, especially if it’s urgent, because I’m closer now – your husband may need that also. What we sometimes did when it was my turn but he was closer (and I suppose may do in reverse now that I am, it hasn’t come up yet) is that he would go get the kid and take them home, I would come home and as soon as I got there, he’d switch to work-from-home mode.

      It also depends, of course, on your jobs/roles and how easy it is for one of you to step out of a day (and possibly back in) – some jobs are more forgiving of that sort of thing.

      I highly recommend child care be in the town where you live, not where you work. You’ll be further from them, but _they_ won’t have a lengthy commute, and when they reach school-age (assuming you send to the local public school), they may already know a couple classmates, plus you will be used to the logistics of that location.

    29. AFT123*

      I’ve had commutes from 45-60 minutes, 15-20 minutes, 5 minutes, and home-based. After having experienced shorter commutes, I will likely never again take a commute more than 15-20 minutes. When 45-60 minutes was “normal” to me, I didn’t mind as much, but now there is just no way. I actually turned down a great job because of the commute and lack of flexibility in working from home a few days a week.

      My sister has commuted 45 minutes and she has kids, and she doesn’t mind because it’s what she’s always done. Her husband is closer to home and he handles running kids to daycare and back.

      Most people I know choose where they live independently of where they work. For me, where I live takes priority and I choose by school district, proximity to family, and neighborhood features. I choose my job secondarily, which is a luxury of being in a career with plenty of options.

    30. Minion*

      Mine is about 40 minutes. I hate it. Going to work in the morning is actually ok, but coming home the commute just seems to last forever.
      The only thing I could do was to change my hours at work. I used to work 8 – 4:30 and now I come in at 7 and leave at 3:30 which gives me a little extra time in the evenings to enjoy a bit. Bedtime is pretty early now, though.
      Right now, my husband and I are in a bit of a standoff. LOL He absolutely hates the area I work in and doesn’t want to live there. If we moved to that area, then his commute would be about 40 – 45 minutes, so the only solution would be to find a middle point between our two workplaces, but that’s easier said than done. Oh, and, in case it matters, I got this job after we’d made the decision to move to where we live currently.
      My kids are grown and living on their own, so I don’t have those issues at this time.

    31. Commute chat?*

      Thanks everyone for your responses so far. I’m reading through them with great interest and relief that I’m not alone in feeling the way that I do. For those of you with short commutes: I’m so happy for y’all! For those of you with commutes as long as or longer than mine: may your roads be clear and seats be always available.

      Also, just a note on #4: definitely didn’t mean to exclude people who don’t have/live with partners! I was caught up in my own frame of reference.

    32. matcha123*

      I had a commute like that when various things were going on in my life.

      1/2. I hated the place I worked at, which contributed to my dislike of the commute.
      The pluses, I guess, were that I was taking the train, and since the stop I was riding from was far up the line, I usually got a seat. The place I worked at also paid for my train pass.

      The bad part was waking up at 6:30am to get ready and the 15 minute walk to the station to catch the train at 7:15am and the bike ride to work to be there by 8:15am. I don’t want to be moving that early in the morning.

      3. The commute didn’t really take over my life at that time. It was my job and all of the prep and research that was messing with me.

      4. Hmm…this is too complicated to answer haha

    33. Rat Racer*

      I work from home, which is awesome, but have to travel at about 20%. I live in Northern California and am shocked/appalled at how difficult it is to get across the country to major metropolitan areas on the East Coast. Why doesn’t Oakland have any direct flights to New York? Ridiculous. And don’t even get me started on Dulles and the lack of public transportation from that airport to DC…

      Anyway, working from home and travelling has opened up a whole new world of considerations that I’m sure all you road warriors have been dealing with for years (like that fact that there are no outlets on Southwest flights) and made me very particular about airports. I’m developing a whole new zoo of pet peeves (yay!)

    34. Teapot Coordinator*

      1. 20 minutes in the morning, I start at 7:30 and I JUST miss the bulk of traffic! I work until 4:00, if I can leave at 4, it’s 20 minutes. If I leave about 4:15 or later, it’s 30+ although on Tuesday there was an accident and it took 45 minutes. This is a 14 mile commute and about 90% of it is on the interstate.
      My husband is a 12 minute commute into downtown KCMO (I work to the south in the Overland Park area, for any locals)
      2. It’s ok. I don’t love it, but if it sticks around 20 minutes, that’s ok with me. I do like that it’s mostly interstate driving as opposed to driving through stoplights. We are moving in two months though and my commute will shorten to about 13 minutes. My husband’s will increase to 20 minutes until next spring, when it will shorten to 15 minutes when he moves offices.
      3. The only thing that saves me is that my work day ends at 4:00!
      4. We decided to move further south for planning for my husband’s office move next year(it would have been a 30 minute commute without the move), to be closer to my work and to have a newer/nicer apartment.
      5. We don’t have kids, but I’ll likely work part-time or not at all for the first few years and then work part time while they’re school age. We’ve talked about this a lot and we think it will work really well for us.

      1. Christy*

        I seethe with jealousy. We’re trying to move to KCMO–looking at the Westport/Country Club Plaza area. My commute would be 10 minutes driving to near Union Station. What a dream!

        1. Teapot Coordinator*

          Try Fairway/Roeland Park/eastern Mission area too, if you don’t mind living in Kansas as opposed to living in Missouri. Both are small suburbs that are quick and convenient to Union Station. You can take Shawnee Mission Parkway to Ward Parkway or take I-35.

          1. Christy*

            Thank you! My girlfriend is like 1000% opposed to living in Kansas because she’s had a grudge against Sam Brownback since high school. I’m actually going to post something on the non-work thread about KCMO schools because that element weighs heavily on me.

            1. Teapot Coordinator*

              Brownback is kind of a tool, luckily we seem a bit more sheltered here in the KC area from his shenanigans.
              I will say that any co-worker I’ve had who lives in MO either 1.Sends their kids to private schools or 2.Lives in the country to avoid the schools of KCMO – as in, Smithville/Parkville area – which may be an option for you too, if you live in the Gladstone/Riverside area, the schools are better and the commute to downtown/Union Station is in the 15-20 minute range

              1. Christy*

                And that’s my issue–I support public schools! I think kids who have supportive (and honestly, well-off) families can do well anywhere. Generally speaking, I’d send my kids to the public school wherever we lived, and trust that they would succeed in life.

                But the schools in KCMO are not like 3/10 bad. They’re not 5/10 mediocre. They’re like uniformly 1/10 bad. They’ve been just horribly mismanaged. What’s the line? But how will schools ever improve if people don’t send their kids there unless they have no alternative? This is my great moral quandary. Purely hypothetical for now, as I live across the country and have no kids.

              2. Qmatilda*

                Former Parkville resident (and Parkhill grad here) Excellent schools, short commutes and many bridges to get you into work….come to the Northland. Plus, we have the airport. ;)

        2. DCtoKC*

          Potentially short commute was one of the reasons I agreed to move …. My current coworkers complain about traffic. Unless you’ve been stuck on the Beltway, you really don’t know what traffic is.

          1. Christy*

            You’re living the dream! The dream, I tell you. (Would you mind sharing where you were in DC and where you are in KC? I’m just interested in neighborhood comparisons.)

    35. Dangerfield*

      1) I only work about 2.5 miles from my house, but the location of my office, my house and all the roadworks around my city mean that I struggle to drive there in less than thirty minutes. I can walk it in about forty-five, which I do most of the time. If I’m not going in for 9am, then it’s more like fifteen minutes to drive it. My partner’s commute is hellacious (twenty minute walk, forty minute train journey, another twenty minute walk) so I’m lucky by comparison.

      2) I tolerate it. It’s nice to have the option to walk but the streets are so dirty and unpleasant that it’s not much good for decompression. If it were a pleasant walk I’d enjoy it.

      3) It’s a great opportunity to catch up on podcasts etc. It’s nice to know that at least I’m getting some exercise.

      4) We bought our house based on being under two miles from a train station and within half a mile of our daughter’s school. Being able to walk her to school easily in all weathers was our top priority and we’re very glad of it.

      5) I’ve had to consider this because not only does my partner work a long way from home but he can’t drive, so any kind of emergency cover falls on me. I’ve made sure that I work somewhere that is forgiving and flexible, and I’ve arranged backup childcare options for the times I just can’t leave easily.

    36. HappyHedgie*

      1. 30-40 minutes each way by public transit. I could probably shave 15-20 minutes off of my commute by driving but, the added expense and hassle of driving isn’t worth it.

      2. I enjoy it. I wouldn’t enjoy it if I had to drive but, b/c it is public transit I can put my headphones in listen to some music and catch up on a good book. I consider it “me” time and enjoy the relaxation after a busy day. It does suck when either I miss my connection or the weather is awful and I’m soaked by the time I get to work though.

      3. I just add tack it onto my working hours. I.e. an 8 hour work day is a 9 hour work day with commute.

      4. We sort of did it the unconventional way. We chose where we wanted to live (I’ve lived in this area my whole life as has he) and we found jobs based on that. In fact, he just turned down a job that would have meant a 1.5 hour commute one way on country roads. Family/life is always more important to us that our careers so we make sacrifices to ensure that Life gets put first. Obviously, that won’t work for everyone but, we’ve been able to make it work for us.

      5. Bonus: No kids.

    37. Anonymous Educator*

      1. Just based on my own experience, a 45- to 55-minute commute is not too bad.

      My first full-time “real” job was a 40- to 50-minute driving commute. That wasn’t excellent, but it wasn’t bad either. I held that job down for a few years.

      Then I had another job that was a 55- to 75-minute bus commute with one transfer. The transfer part was what really got me down, not the time, because sometimes the buses just wouldn’t match up.

      I had a 30- to 40-minute bus commute that was excellent… again with a transfer, but it being under an hour was much better.

      Then I had a commute that ranged between an hour and forty-five minutes and two hours via public transit. I could at least sleep on the commuter train or knit. But it was long and took its toll on me.

      I followed that with an hour and forty-five minutes to two hours commute driving, and that was way worse, because traffic is frustrating, and when you’re driving, you have to pay attention—you can’t just doze off.

      Now I have a 20-minute one-bus commute, and it makes my life so much easier. In fact, sometimes I’ll just get off the bus early and walk just to get some walking in.

      2/3. So, at least from my perspective 45- to 55-minutes… not ideal, but not too awful either. I think ultimately with my much longer commutes (up to two hours each way), what really bummed me out wasn’t the commute itself or the time it took but the time it took away. It meant I had to get up that much earlier, and it meant I got home that much later. Less sleep, less leisure time.

      4. We usually didn’t decide where to live based on the commute. We usually picked the job and the place to live was just what we could afford.

      5. No kids

    38. Chalupa Batman*

      1. About 20 minutes, with variables in the middle that occasionally push it up to 30-35.
      2. I don’t hate it. I’m pretty introverted, so I actually really like the days I drive (we only have one car, so I get dropped off about 2/3 of the time) because I get to decompress before and after work.
      3. The only time it really bothers me is when I have to dash home at lunchtime. It means I’m rushing home, hoping for no delays, then often grabbing a snack and getting right back in the car. Stressful. If I’m getting dropped off, I take advantage of it as a good time to talk with my husband without distractions-it can be very productive. So I guess I see the positives and maximize those.
      4. We didn’t, but we’re considering moving now, and it’s factoring in. We’re looking at two towns; one is in the same district that my kids go to school now, the other is a new school district, but the new town is a 5 minute commute to my job. I’m leaning toward the first, though.
      5. The one car thing makes this kind of tricky-it actually came up recently when our daughter had to go home sick. My husband has a flexible work schedule, and if he’s home all day, it usually means I have the car. It took him a while to reach me (’cause I was, ya know, working), and she ended up waiting for a bit. For scheduled appointments, he keeps the car and adjusts his schedule, or we try to get them outside of work hours. My parents worked off shifts-mom at night, dad in the daytime, so Mom typically dealt with school stuff, etc.

    39. GiantPanda*

      1. 20 minutes by car, 38 to 90 minutes by public transport (I’ve achieved 38 exactly once in 4 years.) I do get to telecommute now and then.
      2. Like the public transport version. The only time I get to read. Dislike the car version. No parking spaces on either end.
      3. I don’t.
      4. The closest place to my job where a house is affordable.
      5. None.

    40. The Cosmic Avenger*

      1. 25-35 minutes. (I come in early and leave early, so usually around 25.)
      2. Tolerate it. It’s really not bad, but I much prefer teleworking, which I do regularly.
      3. I mostly listen to NPR, and/or use the time to think about other things.
      4. We bought our home when both of our employers were in different locations, so when we were younger we were OK with longer commutes, although I’ve taken the bus and carpooled. Lucky for us, my employer moved a tiny bit closer and my wife’s employer moved a lot closer.
      5. We usually alternate, although more recently it depends on who has the least going on that day or has more leave (usually me). Our day care was around the corner from the house, so it made pick up and drop off easy and it didn’t matter who did what. We can both telework very easily, and if we both had big meetings, we might call my mother-in-law, or just say we can’t pick her up for another hour and a half. It’s not like we can answer the phone instantly all day either, many people are busy enough that they can’t check their messages at work as soon as they get them. (We usually can, though.)

    41. Marketeer*

      1. A little over 2 hours door-to-door each way
      2. It’s the absolute worst. I would love to find something closer but it hasn’t happened yet
      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
      4. I’m single but I live there because I have lots of family and I could never find something like what I have for that price closer to my job.
      5. I do have a child. We’re lucky enough to have a doctor that has Saturday hours. If she’s sick, I can work from home or go in late/leave early. I also have my family around who can take her. I drop her off at school really early and a relative will pick her up until I get home.

    42. ZSD*

      About 40-45 minutes each way.
      I take public transport and read the paper in the morning and novels on my way home, so I actually like having that time. When I used to drive (in a different city), I listened to NPR, which also seemed like a good use of time.
      As far as deciding where to live, well, we made sure to live on the metro line that I’d be working on so that I at least wouldn’t have to change trains (or take both a train and bus). My husband telecommutes here, so we didn’t have to compromise on a commute.

    43. the_scientist*

      1. My commute is all by public transit, and can range from 30 minutes to over an hour, depending on traffic, transit breakdowns, etc.
      2. It’s fine. I was living in the suburbs and spending 90+ minutes (each way) on transit before I moved, so this is a significant improvement. While public transit is certainly less stressful than driving, I find the Toronto transit system to be incredibly anxiety-producing. I take the streetcar and during rushhour, they are absolutely shoulder-to-shoulder; like forget any ideas you might have about personal space because such a thing doesn’t exist. There are frequent (almost daily) service interruptions, delays, breakdowns and other problems. The overcrowding is so significant that you often have to wait for 5 or 6 full cars to go past before you can fit on one, so it’s hard to plan a trip or get where you need to be in a timely manner. At this point, I’d prefer living in a smaller town where I could walk or drive or bike to work, as much as I hate “car culture”.
      3. I moved closer to work to shorten my commute from 3 hours a day to a little over an hour a day. In the summer, I’ll work 8:30-4:30 so I miss the worst of rush hour on both sides.
      4. My partner and I picked our apartment based on our commutes. He walks 20 minutes to work, I commute by public transit. We have one car, but our neighbourhood is walkable for all errands and our doctor’s office is in the neighbourhood, etc., so it’s rare that we need the car for our daily lives. We are planning to buy in the next few years and have NO idea how to handle it or where to look, because we can’t afford in the city, or even in the surrounding suburbs.
      For the kids thing: here, there is NO way that both parents can live in the suburbs and commute downtown with young kids, unless there is family support. You’re looking at a minimum of 45 minutes, and usually over an hour one way to any of the major suburbs, and that’s not going to cut it in case of an emergency. Or even with daycare pickup deadlines, really. So most people here either have one parent not working or working close to home, or have family support. People who live in the city get by OK. I think a lot of people pick daycares that are walking distance from the office, rather than their homes, so they are close by in the event of illness/emergency. Also, my employer has a good WFH policy, which helps a lot.

    44. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      My father and most of my friends parents have had hour + commutes into the Boston area the entire time they’ve known them. I did an hour commute when I first go the job I have now. I didn’t mind it when the weather wasn’t bad, but it snowed a ton that winter and the road conditions were really bad… lots of pothole dodging! I have a ten minute commute now (though sometimes it does take me over an hour if there’s an accident, and that makes me far angrier than having a commute that was just normally an hour!) but I’d be willing to live further away if it meant be in a better area. Also, I grew up thinking long commutes so you can live in the suburbs were the norm (see above) but my partner didn’t. Since he has more of a problem with the idea of a long commute I’d be willing to live closer to his job and take the longer commute myself, if that became an issue.

      1. TL -*

        One of my old coworkers does a Providence-Boston commute every day by car (it would be so much faster to take the commuter rail). I think he’s crazy but he’s been doing it for a couple of years now, so…

        1. Rob Lowe can't read*

          I know people who do that commute in both directions. Overall I think it’s nuts, but driving the Providence-Boston trip is definitely nuttier.

    45. KR*

      1. My commute is a 30 minutes at the worst, 17 minutes at the best. I used to have a commute of 25-35 minutes and I hated it so much. When I was in college, my commute there was 45 minutes at best, 60-65 minutes at the worst.
      2. Compared to the commutes to work and school I used to have, this one is great. I have to drive on some high traffic roads with no passing zones though, so sometimes my commute is really frustrating because it can be slowed down dramatically by one school bus, the thought of rain, or a slow driver. When my commute was really long I hated it because it made my work day a lot longer and it was harder to do things because if someone wanted to hang out after work, it would take an hour round trip to go home and change. Or if I forgot something at home it was a pain to go home and get it. I was more irritable with a long commute and it stressed me out a lot.
      3. I began looking for ways to enjoy my commute when it was seriously long. I stocked my iPod with really good music, I started listening to NPR, and I timed my errands and chores so that I could do everything in one trip so that once I was home, I didn’t have to drive more than 10 minutes to get anything I needed.
      4. When my roommate and myself were looking for somewhere to live, she was comfortable moving to City B, which is about a 30-35 minute drive (sometimes a 40 minute drive in bad traffic) away from where I work along busy roads with no passing zones that can be easily backed up. She thought it was a viable option because she didn’t mind long drives (mind you that she doesn’t work and when she goes to school she does not go 5 days a week and usually only has one class a day in the late morning – so not comparable to my usual 8-12 hr a day working). I pushed back hard against this to the point where I would rather move in by myself then have to drive over an hour round trip every day to work again. It was hard to push the line but I think she really understands now how much a long commute grates on me.
      5. When I was a kid, my dad had a long commute (2 hrs round trip every day). When I was younger my mom was there and worked nights when he worked days or would work mornings and get out before I got home from school, so my parents were lucky in that sense. When I was older it was just my dad around, but as a high school student I felt really lucky that I had over two hours at home alone guarenteed before my dad got home ;).

    46. ACA*

      1. 10-15 minutes by bus, plus 1-20 minutes of waiting for the bus. (They’re supposed to run every 10 minutes, but….) I never walk in to work, but when I walk home it’s about 30 minutes.
      2. I like it! I just wish the buses were on time.
      4. The main role commute played when we were house-hunting was that we wanted to make sure we were close to public transportation. And we are! About five blocks from the train, and only a block or two away from three different bus routes.

    47. Collie*

      1. Commute is somewhere between half-an-hour to forty-five minutes. It depends on if I take the bus or walk to the Metro. Except the other day when the Metro was closed. >:( (For more context, I live about seven driving miles from where I work.)
      2. As much as I enjoy driving, I’m glad I don’t have to (a) drive first thing in the morning when I’m still waking up and (b) drive in DC traffic which is the first or second worst in the country depending on what article you read. I like it, as far as commutes go. Once I got over the motion sickness for the first few months, I was even able to read on the train.
      3. It doesn’t. Plus, when the weather is nice, I can opt to walk to/from the Metro which provides some nice quiet, meditation time to myself and improves my day. Hooray for vitamin D!
      4. He has a slightly shorter commute than I do at present, though his new job is going to make commuting a bit of a challenge. There are too many other factors that determined where we lived, but commute will probably factor in much larger next time we move.

    48. Accountant*

      1. 12 minutes if I drive directly to work, 25 if I drop my daughter off at daycare (which includes the time spent getting her out of the car and into her classroom)

      2. love it. My parents wanted to live out in the county, so we did that growing up. To get “to town” where my dad worked, where we went to the grocery store or the doctor, etc. it was a 45+ minute drive. It was stupid and I never wanted a long commute.

      3. n/a

      4. We knew I’d be working downtown as long as we live in this city, so we picked the closest affordable suburb. His commute is 25 minutes in the opposite direction from mine.

      1. Accountant*

        oh, and 5.– the above-mentioned daycare is about 10 minutes from our house to make it easy for us both. It’s between our house and my job, so I drop her off every morning and we alternate who picks her up based on whats going on that day. I usually handle medical stuff, etc, just because my job is more flexible.

    49. Jules the First*

      1. 40-45 min by subway. There’s also a train which is about five minutes faster but comes less frequently and is a less convenient transfer, so I only use it when I’m in a hurry.
      2. I read or listen to music because I’m mostly underground with no phone service. It’s my me time.
      3. I plan to do something downtown after work at least once a week so that I can vary the trip home occasionally. Also make sure that what you do during the commute is something you actively enjoy (so no working on the trip!)
      4. I’ve lived in the same neighbourhood for ten years through four jobs. I love the neighbourhood and wouldn’t leave for anything. I’ve turned down jobs because the commute would be too gnarly.
      5. A part time nanny does school pick ups and emergencies for my colleague (I’m currently kid-less, but this would be my option if I had them). If it’s too early for the nanny to be available, a schoolfriend SAHM can take the older one, or you take the day off.

    50. Ad Girl*

      1. About 10-15 minutes, can be 25-30 if traffic is really, really bad in the evenings.
      2. It really is great! One of the biggest perks is that it is 5-10 at lunch, so I am able to go home. I also live right outside of the city center (Southern, big city), so there are a lot of things close by as well for running errands, etc at lunch.
      3. One of the biggest things (which I just got lucky with), is that a gym is two blocks away. Grocery store is also two blocks in the other direction. I am able to work my schedule so I am working out/shopping right after work, instead of feeling like I have to go out of my way either before I go home or after I get home to do those things.

    51. Marcy Marketer*

      I worked at company A in City Z for two years and for the first nine months I had a 45 minute commute by train. my partner and I decided to move in together, and it was very much a conversation. We would live in City Y where his job was located only if his current roommate (Daryl) would rather live with us than find other roommates. Otherwise we’d live in a borough of City X which was halfway between City Y and Z for a 45 minute commute for both of us. But, Daryl wanted to still live with us so we lived in City Y for a year and my partner had a five minute commute and I had an hour and a half commute.

      I’m not going to say it was all hearts and roses, but I was young and getting my hustle on and we made it work. He would always have dinner ready for me when I got home and I would listen to NPR or audio books in the car. It wasn’t the worst. However, I eventually got a new job that was an hour in the other direction. My partner, Daryl, and I thought about moving a little bit my way to make my commute 45 minutes (no traffic), but I basically pitched a fit and said that I had a shitty commute for the last year and it was my partner’s turn! Not my best moment :) So we parted ways from Daryl and moved closer to my new job. My partner had an hour commute for six months, but he was actively looking for another job even before we moved, and he eventually got one. We both have 20 minute commutes now.

      I think it’s just one of those things where you both have to decide if your quality of life/relationship is more important than your job or city. For us, it was pretty easy once we shedded Daryl (sorry Daryl!) because both of us are easy going, but I think my partner didn’t want to let Daryl down or abandon him. However, I have a lot of friends who really tussle with where to live, with no one wanting to “give up” their job. I honestly think it just has to be a really open conversation with no one trying to “win” but just make the best life together. My 20 minute commute is amazing. We have a dog now, which we’d never be able to have before, and I can get home and cook, do the dishes, take the dog for a walk, and watch tv, and I’m not exhausted at all.

    52. Stranger than fiction*

      Wow, I feel like a spoiled brat right now, but my commute is less than 20 minutes, but I’m only about 8 miles from the office. I’m in the OC, and the longest commute I’ve ever had in my career was 40 minutes. Here, it could take 1 1/2 hours to drive from north to south county or vice versa in rush hour traffic, though. I guess I’ve been lucky to have found most of my jobs on my end of the county. And, honestly, a lot of companies here question or raise eyebrows at job applicants coming from the other end of the county because they worry about the commute being too much. I guess that’s easy to do, though, when the area is so densely populated that you have plenty of candidates close by.

    53. LQ*

      I’m on the low side of this which seems uncommon at least here.
      1. How long is your commute?
      7 minute walk each way. (I can’t imagine what it would be driving, most people who driving park farther away from the building than my apartment.)
      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it?
      Love it, just enough to let my brain discard work things and shift into a more personal space.
      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
      It’s perfect. Up to about 20 minutes has been fine for me. Once when I had a 2.5 hour each way commute, there was no way to stop it from taking over my life. Spending more than 5 hours a day commuting basically meant I could do nothing else with my life during the week. 15 minutes a day means I can have a really substantial hobby that I love. I could have a second job if I needed. I could do a lot of things with that extra 20 hours a week that make the scope of job much more tolerable. (I actually like my job quite a bit, but I’d do a job I liked less to have this short of commute.)
      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes?
      Currently single, but when partnered and living with someone it was sort of who had the job they were more likely to stay with for a while (me-he had…high job turnover?).

    54. Laura*

      Aww, that’s tough. I feel for you. Here’s my info:

      1. 20 minutes to get there, 30 minutes to leave (all surface streets!)
      2. I tolerate it. I work at a large university so when leaving, the traffic can be really frustrating. I listen to podcasts on my way home, which make the drive a lot more bearable.
      3. It doesn’t. It’s not long enough to take over my life.
      4. My boyfriend and I live apart but I mostly stay at his place. We are planning on moving in together and have only considered places that are equidistant for us both.
      5. No kids

    55. AmyNYC*

      1. My commute is about 50 minutes by train.
      2. I don’t love it, but I’m resigned to it – in New York, this is pretty standard.
      3. I’m fortunate that it’s a pretty straight shot – no transfers – so I can read or study and get a solid 30-40 minutes of concentration. In nice weather, I break it up by walking 10 minutes to the further station, riding the train for 30 min, and getting out a stop before the office to walk another 10.
      4. We both got new jobs after moving, so the commute wasn’t a factor. He can work from home (I can’t) so that flexibility is nice when we need stuff done at the apartment (and I would assume, should kid emergencies come up)

    56. Sitting Duck*

      1. Currently about an hour – but it will be cut in 1/2 when summer starts (We just moved/bought a house and decided to keep our son in the same pre-school he was already in, so I currently drive about 15 minutes in the wrong direction to get him to school, and do the reverse at the end of the day to pick him up, when summer comes we are moving him to a summer camp a block away from where I work, and then in the fall he will go to Kindergarten, which is directly across from the house we bought, so my commute will be 30 min each way since I don’t be dropping him off or picking him up)
      2. Its only been 1.5 weeks since we moved, my old commute was about 30 minutes (including dropping my son off) so once I don’t have to drop him off anymore my commute will still be the same as it has been for 1.5 years. I don’t mind the 30 minutes in the car.
      3. This post actually just allowed me to realize that once my son transitions to the camp/kindergarten that my commute will be the same as it was before we moved – and I feel so much better about it knowing that than I did before. SO thanks :) Its all about context and creating a schedule. Long commutes can sound terrible, but once you get into the practice of doing it, I don’t think they are all that bad.
      4. We choose a place we could afford, with the house items we really wanted (2 car garage, gas stove, etc.) in a neighborhood we liked. I was nervous about the commute (mine increased, my fiance’s decreased) although am feeling better about it now.
      5. We have one son who will be in kindergarten in the fall. Currently I take care of most of the emergency pick ups, although we are both about 10 minutes from his current school, my job just has more flexibility to leave without notice than his dad’s job. When he goes to camp I will also be the emergency pick-up, as he will be a block away from where I work. Once he starts school in the fall his dad will be much closer, but again, since I have the more flexibility it will probably still be me, it will just take an extra 15 minutes for me to get there than it would his dad. I will most likely also be the one to take him to appts, which is really just because my job is the more flexible one. The biggest change when he goes to kindergarten in the fall will be his dad will be the one picking him up at the end of the day (currently I do 90% of the time) because I won’t be able to get to the afterschool program before they close since I am farther away, and his dad gets out of work earlier than I do.

    57. Callie*

      My first year of teaching I had a 70 minute commute, because I got a job in a town where I didn’t want to live and I drove back and forth every day. I hated it and quit that job at the end of the academic year for a better one in the town where I lived.

      1. 70 minutes, but it was on back roads so longer in the rain.
      2. I hated it.
      3. There was no way to keep it from taking over my life especially on days when I had early morning duty and had to be there by 7 am. Leaving the house at 5:45 was ridiculous.
      4. We stayed in the town where we already lived. I had no desire to live in that town and my goal was to eventually get a job in town, which I did.

    58. Marzipan*

      I have about a 45 minute walk each way, and actually I quite like it. I listen to music, potter about online on my phone, and generally treat it as my exercise for the day. I wouldn’t enjoy a 45 minute drive, but then I hate driving anyway.

      1. Marzipan*

        Oh, and in terms of where to live, it pretty much came down to where I could afford. I did think about some areas where I would have had a short walk + short train journey + short walk, although I had some reservations about that because it would be less flexible in terms of getting back and forth if I had to stay on at work/come in at odd times. On the flipside, the nature of my work is such that I wouldn’t want to live too nearby…

    59. AvonLady Barksdale*

      1. About 20 minutes, give or take, by car.
      2. I don’t mind it. For most of my trip, I go against traffic so it’s pretty easy. I also figured out all of the alternate routes pretty quickly and I take easy surface roads. I can stop for coffee on the way if I want to. I can also drop my boyfriend off at campus on certain days.
      3. It doesn’t, luckily for me. I listen to NPR in the mornings, music on the way home. If there’s ever a day where I just can’t face it, I can work from home.
      4. When we first moved here, I was working from home full-time. We only have one car. We chose our location so my boyfriend could walk to campus (he’s a PhD student) and so I could walk to some things nearby (we moved from NYC, so the idea of being far away from anything was more than we both could bear). I love our neighborhood. Then I got this job but, thankfully, the commute is fine. In fact, my commute is the shortest in the office– even the co-workers who live in the same town as our office have a longer commute.

      I used to live in NYC and work in Midtown. When I lived in Queens, my commute could be 45 minutes to an hour. When I lived in Manhattan, it was a 15-minute subway ride or a 45-minute bus ride with some walking. I never minded commuting by public transportation because I could completely zone out and even close my eyes if I needed to. Driving makes things really stressful. I do miss walking part of the way to work, though.

    60. Something Something*

      Oh boy, that commute sounds really tough. I used to have a commute like that and maybe I’m just a big sensitive baby but it made really sad. I won’t ever go back to a commute like that now. I moved away from the area where that was normal to a small city where the longest commute anyone can have is about 20 minutes. I get the shakes just thinking about that old commute, honestly.

      1. How long is your commute? 2 minutes driving and about 15 minutes walking.
      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it? Like it.
      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life? Well, that’s easy in this case of course.
      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes? We made it our #1 priority. I am a basketcase about driving so we made sure to find a place within walking distance from my job. We have housemates (which actually we love having for the most part) and it works for us.

    61. Ihmmy*

      1) since I use public transit to get to/from work, it’s 35 minutes each way
      2) it’s fine. I could make it shorter by driving, but I would pay oodles in parking costs (particularly if I wanted to be close enough that the walking + driving =/= same as busing time)
      3) I doze on the bus. I am not a morning person, so some mornings I’m still frelling exhausted when my bus arrives, and I can close my eyes if I’m in a decent seat
      4) no live in partner, was in this house prior to getting this job, but part of its selling feature was proximity to main arterial roads and bus routes.
      5) no kids but my job does get a day off every 3rd week which helps a lot with appointments

    62. Noah*

      1) Usually 15-20 mins each way. However I come in late and leave late to avoid rush hour. During rush hour it is at least 45 mins.
      2) I don’t mind it, but I miss my old job where I could walk to work in about 15 mins. If I had to drive in rush hour everyday I would move closer.
      3) I work from home one day a week and we have flex time so I come in later and leave later than many.
      4) I’m single. For me though living where I do now meant a better QOL compared with the area around my office.

    63. T3k*

      1) I have a 35 min. commute, and that’s when there’s no accidents on the highway. If there are, then it becomes 50 min. And taking back roads isn’t an option as that makes it even longer.

      2) I really hate it because 1) I just don’t like spending over an hour each day driving as I feel I could be doing something more productive and 2) I’m so underpaid, it’s not worth it to me in the long run.

      3) I try to go as fast as I can to make it shorter :p ok, not that. I play music off my iPod to pass the time but that’s about it. I don’t do audio books because I’m a very visual person and I don’t take a lot in unless I can write or see what’s being said.

      4) no partner, but I live at home with my mom. As I’m so underpaid, even if I didn’t have student loans, and even if I shared an apartment around here, I still wouldn’t be able to afford rent so where I live is dictated by where my mom lives.

    64. Sunflower*

      I work in Philly and live in Center City. I only started this job in Sept. I used to drive to work- about the same commute as you.

      1. 15-20 minute walk
      2. LOVE it. I used to live on the other side of the city and took the subway which was about a 30 minute trip(walking to stop, ride, walk to building). It would be really hard for me to go back to the subway and almost impossible for me to go back to driving.
      3. When I used to drive to work, I started listing to a lot of podcasts. Not sure if this is possible but having a car with satellite radio and blue tooth was a lifesaver. I would make a lot of phone calls during the commute. I also would listen to various talk/news radio stations on Sirius. I never got into books on tape(are they still called that? lol) but I bet they would help the time go by.
      4. No partner or kids.

    65. overeducated*

      1. Currently, my commute is 1.5-2 hours each way, driving from north of a major metropolitan area where I live to a city south of it, so traffic is unavoidable. This is for two part time temp jobs, but if I have to go back to my seasonal job in a few months, then I’ll have about a 60 minute commute via public transit, with a transfer from bus to train.

      2. Hate it. Hate it hate it hate it. The only think that keeps me sane is the hope that my 10 month job search will soon be successful, and I’ll either have a shorter commute, or we’ll move closer to my new job once I actually have something with long term prospects.

      3. The 1.5-2 hour commute does take over my life but the 60 minute wasn’t as bad. I enjoyed reading on public transit and listening to audiobooks and the radio isn’t quite the same.

      4. We decided where to live in major metropolitan area based on my partner’s job, since he got a multi-year contract, and when we moved I was one semester away from finishing grad school. We just can’t afford to live along one of the subway lines that serves his work area, it’s far far too expensive, so we chose our neighborhood because he can take a 20-30 minute bus trip to work. That was the shortest commute we could afford, rent-wise. We knew that this meant a longer commute for my seasonal job, so we agreed that he would have to deal with day care dropoff and pickup in exchange. Unfortunately, my job search so far has not turned up any possibilities with a commute of under 45 minutes for me, and if I do get one of the jobs I’ve interviewed for recently, it’ll be 60-90 on public transit, so we might wind up thinking about a move them.

      5. It’s been a puzzle in terms of childcare so far, we’ve wound up taking turns because husband’s job has some flexibility and I’ve only been working 3-4 days a week since graduating. What kind of jobs you have makes a really big difference here. With two butt-in-seat jobs and minimal PTO, dealing with sick kids and appointments would be really, really hard, but those factors have given us enough breathing room that we’ve only called on out-of-state grandparents for help once in a year and a half. (Yes, I feel bad that we had to do that at all, but grateful that one was willing to drive hours to help us in a pinch.)

    66. NylaW*

      1. My commute is about 5 minutes tops if the traffic isn’t too terrible and I don’t end up being one of the school buses.
      2. I love it!!! I am afraid of moving somewhere else because I know that time will go up exponentially.
      3. It’s impossible for it to, but it is annoying that when the weather is horrible I have no excuse for not going to work.
      4. We both work at the same place. If we didn’t, we’d probably try to make it an equal commute time if we could, or we’d most likely live close to my work since it has longer hours and is more demanding.
      5. We have a very flexible schedule. Back when our daughter was born, he made a deal with his boss and coworkers that he would work one day every weekend, in exchange for having a set schedule. We basically work opposite days now, but since we both work only days everyone is home in the evenings. It’s great because one of us is always home with the kid, except for 1 day, when my mother watches her.

    67. DebbieDebbieDebbie*

      1. For the last 10 years I have had a 30-45min commute-mostly related to miles as I live in a suburb of a rust-belt city without much traffic. Hubs drives 45min each way
      2. I tolerate it because I used to live in an inner ring suburb that was only a few miles from my workplace and it still took 20 minutes because it was all stop signs and traffic lights. Now it’s mostly all highway. I download podcasts and listen to sermons in the am. Make phone calls in the pm.
      3. I was able to arrange my schedule to start very early (6am) and thus am often able to leave by 3pm and still have time and energy for other life things.
      4. We chose where we lived because I was renting and my husband owned his home when we met. Neither of us had the motivation to look for a home together.
      5. I had three young children when we met and quite foolishly continued to behave as a single mom throughout the kids growing up years. I managed all snow days, medical emergencies and appts. I think my husband picked up from daycare a handful of times when I had a work emergency that would keep me past 6p. Both of our parents were always willing to be back up for us but I just had a terrible, terrible case of Supermom Syndrome.

    68. Lefty*

      1. Just over 2 hours… drive to station, take train in, walk mile to office
      2. I tolerate it. Don’t really have a choice because of the cost of living/quality of living closer to work.
      3. I’m watching this because it’s new to me too… right now it feels like my life is ON the train.
      4. We decided mostly on cost, what we want can only be in our budget that far away. However, the train schedules changed around our move… what was a 47 minute ride is now 1 hour and 27 minutes. *fingers crossed that will change soon with some new train schedules*

      5. Bonus: We’re about to start a family so I’d love to hear these explanations too!

      1. MoinMoin*

        I really hope for your sake that the train schedules change in your favor, but in the spirit of the grass always being greener on the other side I just want to say that I’d still take your commute over my own. Mine is shorter but it’s all active driving. I’d love to sit on a train and get some time to read instead. :-)

    69. The Other Dawn*

      For my whole adult life (I’m 41 now) I had a commute of about 10 minutes, because I worked at one place for 6 years and the other for 18 years. Although there was a 6 month stint where I drove to another office: 3 days a week at first and it was about 50 minutes one way, and then it later became 5 days a week for about 3 months. Then I was relocated back to the main office. I didn’t mind that drive, because it was “thinking time” for me and helped me ease into and out of the work day.

      I went onto another job for about 10 months and that was also about 10 minutes commute time. About three months before I left I moved 45 minutes away…and that drive SUCKED! Traffic was fine going there, but coming home was a pain in the ass because there was ALWAYS traffic in particular spots and no way to really avoid it. And on Friday nights, inevitably there was an accident in that same spot. Another reason I hated that commute was that I really hated the job, the boss, the company, everything about it. So that made it much worse.

      Now I work up in this area and my commute is about 20 minutes. I find it to be just right: enough time to ease into and out of the day, and the traffic is usually just a slowdown in one particular spot. It’s far enough that I don’t feel like I have to jump right into the work day, or like I’m obligated to come in if the weather is really bad. (That’s how I felt when I was 10 minutes away. It was pretty much expected that I wouldn’t call out for weather. Which was no big deal to me anyway.) But it’s close enough where I can run home during the day, if necessary. I usually try to leave about 4:50 pm so I miss the huge line of cars getting on the highway and I usually miss any potential slowdowns.

      My husband, on the other hand, has been driving 50-60 minutes each way for about 11 years and he doesn’t mind it. Traffic sucks coming home, but he’s pretty much OK with it. I don’t know why or how, but he is. He works 7 am to 3 pm, so that’s pretty much why it doesn’t take over his life.

    70. Mike C.*

      1. Ten minutes.
      2. It’s pretty awesome.
      3. A fast car that can take corners at speed. ;)
      4. Wife wanted to life in a nicer complex that just happened to be really closer to my workplace, so that was pretty much that.

      1. Mike C.*

        Oh, I should add the 5-10 minutes to park and 10-15 minute walk. Those aren’t exaggerations either, it’s a large site.

    71. MoinMoin*

      I commute 25 miles each way, from the southern part of a major metropolitan area to the northern part. I don’t love it, but I fell into this company last summer and I’ve made my peace that I’ve committed to this job for at least another year or two and that includes the commute. About a month ago it finally made sense to change my usual hours, though, from 8-4 to 6:30-2:30, which means I avoid a lot of traffic and my commute is cut down from 1 hour each way to ~30 minutes. Getting up earlier works with the rest of my daily schedule so for me the trade-off is definitely worth it. That said, I still have to work at not letting the drive stress me out- I thought not being in bumper to bumper traffic would eliminate a lot of that, but it’s pretty easy to get tired of the drive and other drivers at normal driving speeds as well.
      Luckily my company is very “burn-out conscious” so they have a lot of initiatives like flex schedules, work from home programs, commuter vans, etc. so there may be other options for me in the future if the commute still feels like it’s impacting more than I can emotionally/time-wise/whatever take. Just knowing that helps, as well as trying to treat the drive as my introverted time to decompress and listen to stand up comedy on Pandora- something I enjoy but wouldn’t otherwise make time for.
      As for choosing to live where we do- at the time we both had jobs in our corner of the city. Now my changing companies and my husband getting promoted means we both have about the same distance/time commutes but in different directions. Finding a midway point to lessen both our commutes would put us in the heart of downtown, much more expensive for a much smaller, older house. I honestly don’t see the point because I’d like to escape this city in the next 5 years anyway, so I don’t see a reason to move away from the stuff I like in our current neck of the woods for a company I only plan on using as a short-term stepping stone and a position (his) that he wants to grow out of as quickly as possible anyway.
      So I guess the bottom line is that yes, commuting is a huge suck and I only manage it because I consider it a temporary suck that I choose to accept for a greater goal. If I were planning to stay in this city/company/etc longer, I would definitely be doing the math on gas/car wear and tear/mental and time investments and probably choose to invest that money in a house closer to my job or something.
      If you read any or all of this thanks! Commuting takes a significant amount of my mental time and so I have a lot to say about it, though I know it’s not generally interesting to anyone else.

    72. Pwyll*

      1. A little under an hour each way
      2. I surprisingly like it more than I expected. I’m reverse-commuting from a major metro to beyond the suburbs, so traffic isn’t too bad, but it can be a bit long. I really wish I could telecommute, but my employer disallows all external access: I literally have to print every piece of information I could possibly need in paper in order to work from home, which is more work to prepare.
      3. I’ve really been digging into audiobooks. I just haven’t had the time the past few years to do any real reading, so when I started this job I grabbed a bunch and have been really enjoying the ride. I also use the time to call family on my bluetooth speaker, which is a great way to catch up with them.
      4. No partner at the moment. I live on a subway line in the suburbs of a metro area in a nice place that is so incredibly inexpensive. The offer I received was too good to refuse, even though I wanted to work downtown. So, in a few months I’ll need to decide if it’s worth the commute time. But the convenience of the city being so close and not needing to pay for parking really wins it for me.

    73. Gene*

      1. Current commute is a 15-20 minute drive, counter rush hour traffic. Or a 45-55 minute bike ride (pretty much all downhill to work and all uphill home). Public transit is not an option, closest bus stop to work is 3.5 miles from the office.
      2. It’s the longest I’ve had, but it’s OK.
      3. Any errands I want to run are on the way home, so it’s good in that respect.
      4. I had the job and house when we met, so it was a given in the relationship. FirstWife and I found a house we liked in our price range with a reasonable commute to LastJob. CurrentJob is farther from home, but doable.
      Bonus. No kids, so no comment.

    74. Ife*

      I don’t have such a terrible commute compared to a lot of other people. I have to drive but I can avoid the freeway and it’s a pretty easy route. I can run some errands on my commute, like stop for gas or at the grocery store. I also pass a Starbucks on the way, so sometimes I stop there so I have something to look forward to.

      That said, I much preferred driving just 10 minutes to work. It’s time that I could be using to do something else, and it’s inconvenient to be so far away. I know some people like a longer commute so they can de-stress after the day, but for me it actually makes me more stressed because I can’t always let go of a problem from work and I end up thinking about it for 30 straight minutes (plus driving is stressful for me).

      1. 30 minutes driving
      2. I don’t think I could do anything longer than 30 minutes. It’s tolerable now that I found some good radio stations to listen to, but it’s super annoying in the evening when I just want to get back to the house/have something to do in the evening.
      3. I’m lucky that I have flexibility in start/end times at work, and I can work from home if I need to be at the house for some reason or have an appointment.
      4. My fiance works in construction, so he has a really variable commute. One week he might be working 10 minutes away, and the next it could be 1.5 hours away. Right now we’re living in the house that he was living in previously, but in a couple years we will be moving to a *nice* house. Choosing it is going to be a balancing act between distance to families, amount of land, and distance to the freeway (which shortens his commute).

    75. Lizketeer*

      1. 10ish minutes depending on stoplights
      2. Love it for work/access to specific entertainment in the area, but not so much for seeing other people
      3. The biggest downside to where I am is that, while it’s super close to work (the reason why I chose here), most other people that I am connected with live on the other side of property (Disney World) because of the layout of the parks and their needs to be close to work. To do anything outside of work is at minimum a 30 minute drive on unlit back roads with minimal signage. This is a big barrier to me going out and doing things.
      4. I’m by myself so this isn’t an issue, but again I explicitly chose this location because of it’s closeness to work

    76. Dynamic Beige*

      I commuted to college by train in early 90’s. I would read books but there were people who brought their knitting, picked up a newspaper, slept (which I did often) and then occasionally, there would be someone with a laptop. Seeing those early laptops was like seeing an alien… and remember, no Internet! No iPods! I don’t recall seeing a cellphone, because they were still the big bulky kind that needed a battery pack like a small suitcase. The whole trip took about an hour and a half. Driving to station, getting up to the platform, ride, subway then short walk to school. I didn’t realise how exhausted I was doing it until looking back years later.

      I then commuted essentially the same distance for 7 years at 2nd and 3rd job. I drove because both places were not located in a transit friendly area and also kind of sketchy areas. As an extra added bonus, at any time the day could end at midnight (or later), when the trains were no longer running. So, car. Once again, until I quit LastJob, I didn’t really understand how exhausted I was.

      Driving was more convenient than taking transit, but just as stressful in a different way. On the train, I could read or sleep but getting to the station, catching the trains on time, it was an extra thing to manage on top of everything else. Missing a train meant waiting an hour (usually) for the next one. With driving it was good to not have to worry about schedules but traffic! Weather! At least I got to listen to the radio. I don’t think audiobooks/books on CD where a thing at the time.

      From my experience, no matter what you do during your commute, it’s like having a part-time job on top of your full-time one. There are so many things you can do now to make some productive use of that time but it is still time and that’s the one thing you can’t buy more of.

    77. Patty*

      1. How long is your commute?
      35 – 60 minutes depending on traffic
      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it?
      I’ve only been doing it for 3 months, but I don’t mind it. I listen to podcasts or audio books. The stop and go traffic gets annoying, but I just take a calm approach to the whole thing so it doesn’t stress me out.
      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
      I try to work early hours, 730-4pm usually, so I have time to do things after work. I also have standing 4pm happy hour date with my husband, so I’m always out the door at 4 on those days
      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes?
      My old job was closer to our house, and we picked that location because of the school district and the neighborhood. My husband and I both commute about the same amount now. We discussed moving when I got my new job, but the school districts close to work are not nearly as good as where we currently live, so it doesn’t make sense to move because of that.
      5. Bonus: If you and your partner have children…how does it work for school emergencies, doctors appts, etc?
      When I got this job, part of the deal was the fact that it was going to be more hours than my last job, more responsibility, etc. My husband and I discussed it and agreed to focus on my career for the time being since my husbands is pretty established at his company and so can take the hit of extra sick days. So he does any emergency pick ups and stays home if our daughter is sick. My mom is also available to watch her for emergencies. It’s worked out pretty well. He picks her up everyday so I can stay late if I have to and not rush out the door. We still both go to doctor appointments, but we’re unusual like that.

    78. NJ Anon*

      My commute is an hour each way. Sometimes longer if there is an accident or bad weather. I knew that when I took the job and while the driving in and of itself doesn’t bother me, it is the time I am wasting sitting in the car.
      My kids are grown so that is not an issue. When they were young, I always worked close to home. I am looking for another job with a shorter commute and more $.

    79. NASAcat*

      1. Until very recently it was 90-120 mins each way for 5 years
      2. Depends on the day, but mostly tolerated it. When I would miss the train or drive in with exceptionally bad traffic, I would hate it. I liked when I was into a series or movies or podcasts.
      3. It was just part of my life…It was what it was. I guess I knew that it wouldn’t be forever, so I just sucked it up.
      4. We decided to live “halfway” but as soon as we moved my partner got a job less than 10 miles away from our new place. How convenient. I wasn’t bitter at all. Can you tell?
      5. No children yet. I didn’t think it was a good idea to have kids with a 3-4 hour commute everyday unless my partner was really going to take over childcare duties.

      I haven’t had a chance to read any of the comments, but it’s all relative. I’ve lived in one of the most populated areas in the US my entire life. Traffic is the norm, a constant. A 45-55 minute commute would not bother me (might have stayed at my previous job longer), however we are talking about you not me!

      I would tell you that the more you think about it, the more miserable you will be. There would be days where I would sulk and pity myself and it made the commute unbearable. I would have to remind myself that there were people on the train with me who had gotten on at the previous stops and needed to wake up even earlier than me and would get home later than me too. Distraction was key for me. Audiobooks, music, movies, phone calls. You are looking at a minimum of 2 more years right, is this set in stone? Anyway you can come in later or earlier so you commute is as short as possible? Do a 4/40 or 9/80? Talk about this with your partner now. You wouldn’t want to hear in 2 years that they are not interested in moving to city-that-you-work-in and you see no end in site to your current commute time.

    80. Liza*

      1. 30-40 minutes by public transit, or about 25 minutes biking at an easy pace.
      2. I like it pretty well. When I’m on transit I’m reading or playing games on my phone; when I’m on my bike, I’m on my bike!
      3. Not really an issue at that length.
      4. My partner and I live separately for other reasons (partly because he’s allergic to my cat). I picked my neighborhood partly because it was reasonably convenient to get to his house, and partly because it was close to good transit lines.

      1. Liza*

        P.S. Some of the other factors for me in choosing a place to live: I prefer not to own a car, so being near public transit is essential; and I need more sleep than the average human, so a shorter commute is valuable because it means I can still have a decent amount of time awake at home. Both of those factors mean I’m willing to pay a little more to live closer to work.

    81. Jenna P.*

      1. 30 mins
      2. Love it!
      3. It is a 20 minute bus ride and a 10 minute walk, so it allows me to listen to podcasts/daydream/decompress and enjoy a bit of fresh air and movement before and after work.
      4. We choose to live where I can access a bus line since I don’t drive. My husband does drive and has a car, so he has more flexibility.

    82. AP*

      My commute is about an hour each way, and I take the train. I don’t really feel any way about it- it gives me a lot of time to read, and I’ve never had a commute that was under 40 minutes. It helps that my office is pretty flexible about time, so long as you get work done and get in at least 40 hours. My partner and I are in the process of moving, and it’s going to leave me with the same commute, but he’ll be living much closer to me now. However, it’s going to considerably lengthen his commute as well. I’ve been encouraging him to look for a new position closer to where we’re moving (for a lot of reasons, one being the current instability at his company), but I am a little nervous to see how that works out.

    83. Van Wilder*

      1. 50-65 minutes. In NYC, I know so few people that have a commute under 45 minutes, because it’s expensive to live in midtown Manhattan, where most companies are.
      2. I’m just learning that this is not the norm in other cities and it’s pretty tempting to move. I also think that, depending on your preferences, 60 minutes of walking/subway may be more/less bearable than 60 minutes in traffic. I always thought I’d prefer driving but I’m definitely used to the commute. Also, I lived in Long Island for a couple years and my commute was 1:45 door to door so an hour seems great.
      3. I’m guessing you’re driving so you can’t read but audible! My favorite audiobooks are celebrity memoirs. Also, Leah Remini’s book on scientology was amazing. Also podcasts! This American Life. Serial. Scriptnotes (if you have any interest in movies and/or writing).
      4. Ugh, idk. We found a reasonably priced place on craigslist. My husband’s in school so once he figures out where he’s going to work, I hope we can move to part of Brooklyn that’s a shorter commute.
      5. I’m pregnant for the first time so I would love to know the answer too. Both my parents worked and we always had a babysitter / my dad’s schedule was somewhat flexible. I think if you can’t get home quickly, you’ll have a family member or another parent from the school that you can lean on in emergencies.

    84. Mallory Janis Ian*

      1. 10 – 15 minute drive, depending on traffic. But it is a university campus, so there is also a 12 – 15 minute walk after I park. The cheap ($97/year) parking is all on the opposite side of campus where I used to work, and the only parking on this side of campus is $800/year.
      2. I like my commute; it isn’t bad. My husband doesn’t like his because it is 30 – 40 minutes along a section of highway that is always under construction because they won’t properly plan for population growth. Every time the construction is finished, the population growth means that it is out of date already and they have to widen the highway or add more lanes again.
      3. I always have a book on tape or NPR going in the car; I look forward to my drive times so I can continue my stories.
      4. 20 years ago when we were expecting our first child and living in an apartment, my husband’s parents scoped out our current house and asked us if they bought it, if we would live in it. It is in a small bedroom community with a good school system about 10 minutes outside the nearby college town. We rented it from them for a couple of years, and then they sold it to us for what they paid. So we didn’t so much choose our location as we agreed to a location that we may not necessarily have chosen ourselves. But we like it.

    85. Rit*

      My current commute is ~20 minutes each way, and it’s amazing. But my last job (held for 2 years) was very different:

      1. My commute was 60-90 minutes each way.
      2. I thought I’d be okay, I really did, and don’t regret taking the job in hindsight. But damn, it was soul crushing by the end.
      3. I’m not sure I did, honestly. Eventually I was just exhausted all the time.
      4. This one is a little weird for me, since I can’t move outside a fairly small area.

      5. I’m married with two kids who were middle school/late elementary school age at the time. My husband had a 15 minute commute, so things significantly shifted for us- early pickups, minor emergencies, kid-related errands all fell 100% on top of him. And he never complained, but I wasn’t very happy with the arrangement- I’m just not a fan of such a long term imbalance in responsibilities and it made me feel so disconnected from things. During the week I really only saw the kids for rushed dinner/homework/bed.

      On the other hand I had coworkers with similar commutes who’d done it for 5+ years quite happily. It’s such an individual thing.

    86. Gillian*

      My commute’s about an hour in the morning and an hour and 15 minutes in the evening – I drive about 10-15 minutes to meet my carpool and then go on to work from there. The fact that I only drive the full distance to work one week out of the month helps, and I can sleep/read/whatever during the commute the rest of the time. It’s not terrible, though it does require sometimes making small talk at 6 a.m., which I am not a fan of.

      We bought our house a few years ago to be halfway between our two jobs – now my husband works from home and I’ve changed jobs to a much better work environment – though it’s 20 miles further away. We’ve not talked about moving, though, because we really like our house and neighborhood. I can work from home occasionally, so the commute is not a huge issue.

    87. HR Dave*

      My commute is close to 90 minutes in the mornings, and about 60 in the evenings. I work in NYC and my family made the choice to move out to the suburbs, knowing full well that the commute would be what it is. I’m fortunate in that my wife is home during the day so our son always has someone there in case any emergencies come up or something has to get done before I get home.

      Sure, I’d love to have more time at home and be able to do more than say goodnight to my son before he goes to bed, but it’s a necessary trade-off. Most of the work that I want to do is in the city, and frankly it pays much better on average than equivalent work in the burbs. So this commute is likely what I’ll be dealing with for the foreseeable future. It’s not that bad – I take a commuter bus so I can read, listen to music or podcasts, get a jumpstart on the workday, whatever I feel like. And frankly I kind of like the “me time” that I have on the bus twice a day.

      I’m also fortunate in that my employer is relatively flexible and if I need to leave early, come in late, or work from home it’s generally not a problem.

    88. Elizabeth West*

      1. How long is your commute?
      15 – 20 minutes, depending on traffic. If I go through town instead of on the highway (due to weather, etc.), it can take 20 – 30 minutes. I live on one side of town and work on the other.

      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it?
      Hate–it’s through an industrial area and then onto a three-lane highway, which is full of idiots. Also trucks. Everywhere. Box vans, semi-trailers, construction vehicles, utility vehicles, you name it. I haaaaaate truuuuuuuucks. Every day I wish we had trains but we’re not big enough. Buses here take too long.

      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
      It stressed me out so much to drive this way at rush hour that I now work 8:30–4:30 and don’t take a lunch break so I can leave before the worst of it.

      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes?
      I don’t have a partner.
      When I was job hunting with a crap car, I tried to find jobs closer to my home. That didn’t always work out for the best; many of the better jobs are on the other side of town. Got a better car, which allowed me to look further out. Despite the fact that I don’t like where I live now and it would be more convenient/nicer to be closer to work, I don’t want to go to the trouble and expense of moving unless I’m leaving altogether. Plus rents here are higher than my mortgage payment. I really need to be saving the difference so I can get out of here. I would like to live somewhere with better public transport.

    89. Beth*

      My commute is about a 30-35 minute drive right now, which is pretty typical for where I live, I think. My house is at least 20 minutes away from anything. In the past my commute was 45 minutes and gas was really getting a good chunk of my paycheck (but that was when gas was almost $4) and when I lived in DC for the summer, it was at least an hour, but that was all public transportation so I could read. I listen to a lot of podcasts and music so help the time go by, but a 30 minute drive isn’t really long enough to get boring unless it’s 5 o’clock standstill traffic.

    90. College Career Counselor*

      I had an eight mile commute that took me 45 minutes, despite every navigation hack (back-rounds, through neighborhoods, etc.) I could come up with. In that eight miles, it contained 27 traffic lights and 19 stop signs (yes, I counted), so there wasn’t a lot I could do about it when there was traffic (there was almost always traffic). That same commute, if I was coming back late after an evening work event, would take about 15 minutes. I did that for almost six years, and I hated it every day. I was also the primary drop-off/pick-up for daycare/pre-school, which we picked because it was close to my work (hey, I was driving there anyway), so I could much more easily get there than my spouse, who worked in the complete opposite direction. I do think that picking childcare close to your work as opposed to close to your home (if you don’t work near your home) made more sense for me, but YMMV. At least I knew I could get there before they closed (two minutes away) and/or charged me “late penalties” to get the kids.

      My subsequent job had a 14 mile commute that was 90% interstate, and my colleagues couldn’t believe I was willing to live that far away. It was a breeze–or as I told them, twice the distance, a third of the time (three traffic lights, ONE stop sign). That made it much easier to go to my kid’s school/pick up for doctor’s office visits, etc., even though I was farther away. Time spent in the car IN TRAFFIC and NOT MOVING was always the worst. I’d much rather drive 40 minutes each way if it’s a largely open road.

    91. Annie*

      A long commute (more than 30 minutes) is a deal-breaker for me. I won’t do it.
      1. Current commute 25-30 minutes each way.
      2. I love it.
      3. It’s perfect for me
      4. We bought first then I found a job nearby. I commuted 45+ minutes each way at one job… I lasted 9 months!!

    92. Kelley*

      1. Mine is 25 minutes one way with standard traffic, a little longer if I leave late in the morning. My husband’s is about 15 minutes, but can extend to 30 in the mornings depending on traffic.
      2. I don’t mind it, most other jobs in my field are downtown with all the parking woes that entails. We have a free, secured parking lot just for our office.
      3. It’s the only time I can listen to NPR uninterrupted.
      4. We chose our neighborhood based on his commute (I didn’t have a job lined up yet when we moved to this city) and the neighborhood amenities for our kids.
      5. I schedule doctor’s appointments either at the very beginning or end of the day (flexible work schedule). School emergencies get split between my husband and I based on our day’s schedule, my PTO balance, type of emergency. My turn means I’m taking the rest of the day off, because I’m not going to drive half an hour to work, then to the school, then back to work, then back home at the end of the day. (My kids are older and can be home alone, just aren’t allowed to sign themselves out of school.)

    93. ace*

      1. How long is your commute? 1 hr door-to-door, composed of drive to train (15 mins), express train (30 mins) and walk to office (15 mins).
      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it? First year it was fine, but now at the end of the second year it’s getting old. I typically read a book on my kindle during the train part of the commute, which does make it slightly more enjoyable. While I could (theoretically) work on the train ride, I don’t unless something comes up urgently, usually.
      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life? see above.
      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes? We purchased a home that was a compromise in commutes — husband was previously driving 90+ minutes x2 every day. At our current location, I have the 1-hr commute by train and his drive is more like 30-40 minutes.

      5. Bonus: If you and your partner have children…how does it work for school emergencies, doctors appts, etc? My kids are young (preschool age) and we have a nanny, so it’s workable. I also can work from home approximately 1x a week, so when we have dr’s appts/planned in advance school functions/etc., I can often make those work. If it’s unexpected and/or I can’t make it work, husband handles. My older kid will be going to elementary school next year, and that’s going to be a challenge because his after-school care ends at 6 pm — which is before I get home at this point. Would love to find a job closer to make this part of our schedule a little easier.

      1. ace*

        Oh, and it’s all-or-nothing for me for commuting most days. Because I take express trains that only run at rush hour, and the commute is typically even longer by car, I either spend the whole day in the office or WFH if possible.

    94. Xay*

      1. 15-40 minutes. My work spans several different locations, so my commute varies.
      2. I like it. I tried living further from my work and I hated commuting over an hour each way.
      3. I have a lot of flexibility in my job – when I have to go to the downtown office (furthest away), I try to schedule around peak traffic and/or take the train if possible.
      4. He works all over the metro Atlanta area so we are close to the highway for his (slight) convenience but overall we are closer to my job. Aside from my aversion to long commutes, it also is a good central location for my son’s activities, friends, and family.
      5. My SO is self-employed and I have the 9-5 so we have flexibility built in. I handle routine pick up and drop off and he handles doctor’s appointments and most school emergencies because he can shape his day and meetings around them more easily than I can.

    95. Lindsay J*

      My commute is like 15 minutes right now. Down from 45-1:30 (and it’s not even that much in a difference in mileage, just moved to a place in the traffic pattern.)

      The 15 minute commute is glorious. I can leave work at 3:30, spend several minutes walking to my car, stop at FedEx on the way home, and still be home by 4.

      The 45-1:30 commute was soul sucking. It did take over my life – there was no stopping it. I would stay at work longer to get to the less terrible part of the commute time. I’d get home even later, but at least I wouldn’t feel like I was wasting my life sitting in the car.

      The long commute did take over my life. Especially as I was working 12 hour days. Add another 3 hours of driving on top of that and all I really had time to do was shower, walk my dog, feed my dog, and go back to sleep. I didn’t even eat at home most days. Even small errands could only be run on my days off, it sucked.

      My partner and I work in the same place (different companies, but the same mile radius) so it was easy deciding on a spot. Our jobs are also not likely to move far from this spot in the future, unless we leave the city entirely. Pricing was the other decider.

      No kids yet, but when I was younger both of my parents worked outside of the home – both about 35 minutes away.

      For school emergencies, a relative would have picked us up – we had several in the area. We also had a couple babysitter’s – neighborhood girls that were in high school and college when we were in elementary school, that may have picked us up if they were available and not in school themselves. I don’t remember ever riding in a car with either of them, but they were our set sitters for the days my mom worked later (Tuesday and Thursday).

      My mom always took us to doctor’s appointments – we had a pediatrician that was open late for our regular appointments. She was a teacher and if we needed to go to the doctor for a sick day she would be able to take a personal day to bring us without much advanced notice (as long as she could line up a sub the night before it was fine). We also didn’t get brought to the doctor’s office for a sick appointment unless it was clear we actually needed it; if it was just a cold we would be kept home to rest with some pain and/or cough med and a vaporizer. It was only if we didn’t recover after that that we would stay home. I only remember going to the doctor when sick a few times; when I had the chicken pox, when I had step throat, and when I was sick with a stomach virus.

      Dentist and optometrist appointments happened on the weekends. When I had braces we would get evening appointments on the weekdays.

    96. Lady Bug*

      I commute 45 to 90 depending on traffic, driving. I guess I tolerate it. You probably all think I’m nuts, but I’ll take my car over the train any day. I’ve done 2 hrs on the LI Fail Road (intentional misspelling) and despised it. Weekly or daily delays for 100 year old signal problems, disabled trains, trains hitting cars and people, snow (what, in NY, it never snows, we’re not prepared!!!!) all for the low low price of $400/mo. No thanks. I miss the naps, but I’ll take my car and ability to choose a different route, when I can leave, ability to sing along with the radio and air drum any day over that hell.

      We chose where to live based on what we could afford, which is why the commute is so long.

      My husband and I don’t have kids together, and luckily our exes were in a position to handle school emergencies, which was great.

      Drs appts etc, I only go to doctors open on Saturday or til 7 or 8 pm weekdays if I can help it.

    97. Eden*

      1. 20-25 min in the a.m., 30-40 min in the p.m.
      2. I like it. I have had commutes on both ends of the spectrum, and find that this is the perfect balance for me. I could walk to my previous job in about 7 minutes, and discovered that the coveted zero commute did not work for me psychologically. I need a 20-30 min buffer to go over work stuff from the day in my head and leave it behind. I found myself obsessing over stuff when I got home. I am a higher-anxiety person so for the more mellow, very short commutes probably work fine. Agree with everyone that a long commute on public transit is different from a long commute driving your car. Although I suppose it depends, my train ride was iffy, many days it was so packed that it was impossible to read while hanging from the overhead bar in a sea of bodies.
      3. The longer ones I tolerated because I just LOVED the jobs. I think I would still be open to a much longer drive if it were for a fantastic job. Whether I would do it long term for said job, less certain.
      4. When I moved recently, I decided where I wanted to work partially based on where I wanted to live, and not the other way around. I was offered a different job that would have had double my commute and decided it would be too much. (There were other factors, like the job seemed much higher stress and longer hours–I didn’t want to get home at 8 pm.)
      5. My husband works at home so this is not an issue for us. No idea what people do if both partners have hour plus commutes!

    98. Person of Interest*

      For the past year or so I have been driving about 50 minutes each way from the DC area to Baltimore. I started with 1 day a week working from home and recently bumped up to 2 days a week. Even when I drive in daily I don’t mind it – the drive is mostly against our notoriously terrible traffic. I listen to NPR most of the time, and my commute time is my only news fix most days. I could theoretically take the commuter train but the total trip takes about twice as long as driving. I don’t usually drive anywhere on my non-commuting days so I don’t feel like I’m in the car all the time.

      My husband commutes about the same distance in the opposite direction – we live right in the middle of our two workplaces. He lives by his SiriusXM radio!

    99. LAI*

      Ohh, I’m really interested in the answers to this. My commute is currently about 25 minutes but it’s 10 minutes on public transit and 15 minutes walking which is not bad at all – I read the news on my phone and get some exercise. However, I’ve been spending a lot of time at my boyfriend’s house, which is close to an hour commute on the freeway for me to get to work and I’m questioning how long I’ll be able to do that. The worst part is that the commute is really only about 15 miles but the traffic is just horrendous. I’m very seriously considering searching for new jobs with this as a primary consideration.

    100. Meeeeeeeee*

      1. 20 minutes driving
      2. It is shorter than my previous commute so I love that about it (and also I love the fact I am rarely stuck in traffic because I have several possible routes, so it’s a pretty consistent 20 minutes no matter the time of day). But taken purely on its own, instead of comparing it to alternatives, I dislike it but tolerate it. I wish I could walk/bike to work but I know that is not realistic. Typically I have breakfast in the car (smoothie + coffee) so it’s not a total waste of time. Also I do like the opportunity to listen to NPR.
      3. It doesn’t because it’s not that long a commute.
      4. When we (my husband & I) decided on where to live I did not have a job yet, so we picked something in a first ring suburb on the side of the city where he works. Where I work now is on the same side.
      5. No children, but we do have a dog. Because he works closer to home he is the one to go home during the day etc. I could picture your situation only really working if either your partner works near home and can take time during the day, or you can work from home regularly.

    101. Aunt Vixen*

      1. About an hour door to door: 15-20 minute walk to the train, some standing around waiting for the train, and 40ish minutes on the train (for a 30-minute journey, but we always stop and hold more than you’d think is strictly necessary).
      2. It’s okay. My previous commute was not less than 45 minutes in the car; this is better. (Before that I was about half an hour in the car, which was better than both for a variety of reasons, but never mind.) I would prefer to spend less of my day in transit, but I do appreciate that it requires me to move a bit and that I don’t have to drive for any of it. If I could just have the walk that would be better; or if I could work from home and spend some of the two hours a day I saved on the elliptical that would be fine. As it is, it’s all right. (And I work a 9/80, so it’s not every day of my life.)
      3. Crossword puzzles on my phone unless I’m feeling motion sick.
      4. We can both walk to transit now, so it’s better for both of us.
      5. We don’t have kids yet, but Uncle Vixen works from home 60% of the time so until/unless I get a new job (or the circumstances of the one I’ve got change sufficiently), he’s probably going to be the one handling short-notice kid stuff unless I’m on my 9/80 day off. That’s something I’m thinking about a lot as my days are long, obviously, because there are fewer of them.

    102. Jaydee*

      I have been commuting roughly 45 minutes each way for the last 9 years. I don’t love it, but I don’t hate it (except when winter weather makes it a 2+ hour trek and I have lots of time sliding along at 30 mph and being passed by trucks to dream up alternative careers). I really have no choice if I want to keep my current job. My spouse doesn’t want to live in the large city where I work, and my employer doesn’t have an office any closer to where we live. At this point we don’t have any plans to try to completely relocate. As for kid and house stuff, my husband is primarily responsible for emergencies and mid-day stuff. His job is usually pretty flexible about that. It also helps that we have extended family in the area who can help out in a pinch. As for keeping it from taking over my life, it’s just become part of the routine at this point. I try to multi-task as much as possible, which is of course pretty limited since I’m driving. But I can eat breakfast on the drive to work, listen to music/audio books/podcasts/the nice voice on my phone reading saved websites and PDF files to me, call my mom, plan for or wind down from the day.

    103. Betty (the other Betty)*

      1. Currently zero (I work from home). In the past, 10 – 30 minutes (driving vs bus).
      2. Always so short that it didn’t matter too much.
      3. Only looked for jobs with a very easy commute.
      4. My husband has had jobs that he had longer (30-45 minute) commutes for, but he doesn’t usually mind driving (except in bad weather).
      5. Worked close to childcare when my son was little. Now he is in high school: if I am working outside of my house, I drive instead of taking the bus so that I could go get him if the school health office calls with an emergency. If I’m out of town or in a meeting, generally my husband is available for emergencies.

      1. Betty (the other Betty)*

        We are looking to move, and our only requirement is that the new place be no further than a 30 minute drive from our son’s high school, so he can finish senior year at the same school.

    104. Jade*

      A few months back I took a job that was a 35 min commute, but all highways in a rural area, so it wasn’t bad traffic. I hated it. After about a month of watching the miles accumulate on my car, watching the money go into my gas tank, and having to drive 30 miles through snowstorms, I was sick of it. For other reasons, I am searching for a new job, and it needs to be one that is either closer to home or I will plan on moving. My previous jobs have never been more than 15 miles from home. I would like to go back to that.

    105. Valkyrie*

      1. Mine is about 30-45 minutes in the AM, longer after work
      2. It’s tolerable. I try to avoid the freeways, and I listen to interesting/distracting podcasts.
      3. I found hobbies near work to occupy me for a bit after, I workout 3-4 times a week and visit my gramma on Tuesdays. This has me leaving a couple hours later which makes my commute about 15 minutes!
      4. We decided where to live based on where we could afford to buy a house. The market was on the verge of picking back up so we had to act pretty fast. Luckily, we ended up somewhere that’s about 10-12 miles from where we ended up working!

      5. I don’t have kids, but I have had to take time off to pick up my niece who lives clear on the other side of town. To make it work I had to take time off. My coworker uses a vast network of people to pick up her kids. We work in a small, and flexible office, so needing to leave in an emergency works.

      Good luck!

    106. Ann O'Nemity*

      1. Usually 20 minutes each way
      2. Tolerate it, wish it was shorter
      3. Music, audiobooks. Mentally planning for work in the morning, disconnecting from work in the evening.
      4. Commute length was definitely a factor, but not as important as school quality and neighborhood. My husband and I work on opposite sides of town, so we tried to compromise with a central location.
      5. Schedule everything as early as possible so you can get those coveted beginning of the day and end of the day appt spots so you’re not driving back and forth. Look into daycare and school requirements for sick/emergency response time. Our current daycare asks that we be able to pick up our daughter within 30 minutes for sickness or emergencies. Mostly this one is about sharing responsibilities, communications, and advance scheduling.

    107. Cupcake Girl*

      My commute is 90 minutes each way, so 3 hours a day, 5 days per week. This is all done via public transit. I live in the suburbs and work in the city. The best paying and most available jobs are all in the city, otherwise I would look for work in the burbs. During this time, I do a lot of reading, crosswords, listening to music and getting caught up on emails. I don’t sleep during the ride, because it’s not usually quiet enough to do that.

      Married, no kids, but several dogs, and I’ve been doing this for 20 years, so I guess I’m just used to it. The only time I really hate it is during bad weather in the winter. It takes me even longer when there’s a snowstorm and I’m not allowed to work at home, so that means I have to go into the office.

      Being further away from the office means you really have to plan each day before you leave in the morning. You absolutely need to have everything with you, because you can’t just pop home during the lunch hour to grab something. Also, at the end of the day, you can’t hang around and do shopping or stay late at company events because you need to take transit home.

      My husband drives to work each day and works in the suburbs where we live. As long as I have reliable access to public transit, I have no interest in moving even further away, which is what he’d love to do. If I can’t get to work in less time than I do now, there’s no chance I’ll agree to move.

      If it wasn’t so expensive to live in the city (and it’s even becoming quite expensive to live in my suburbs, as well), I would live closer to the job or quit, work at home and move to a more rural community. None of these are options, I’m afraid, so I’ll keep doing what I’m doing.

    108. Dalia524*

      1. 20-25 minutes each way. I counter-commute and I have flexible hours, so I can leave before or after the rush so I can miss it.

      2. I tolerate it. I hate driving. But I’m very lucky (I also live in the DC suburbs/exurbs, where everyone has an hour long commute). I previously lived much farther away from this job, and it would take me at least 45 mins to get in if I left before traffic got bad (75 mins+ if I were late). It was miserable, and I would never do it again.

      3. It’s short enough that it’s fine. Sometimes I listen to music or the news, but most of the time I just enjoy twenty minutes of quiet.

      4. Wasn’t an issue for a our current place. Moving here brought me a lot closer to work. We talked a few times about moving closer to the city (at the time he had a 45 min commute everyday towards the city), but rent gets much more expensive the closer to DC you get. We’re moving into a new place in the next couple of months, and we’re trying to balance our various commutes with price and value… we could live an hour away from our main jobs (which are in the same town) and live in a huge house or live 10 minutes away in a tiny townhouse for the same price. He also has several part time jobs, so we have to take into consideration his commute for each one.

      5. We don’t have kids yet, but we have dogs. It’s struggle to maintain a household if you have two people working full-time with a long commute. I can’t imagine throwing kid emergencies on top of that. For dog or other family emergencies, I end up being the go-to because I can work from home and I get a lot of leave and lee-way from my boss.

    109. Honeybee*

      1. My commute is generally about 25-30 minutes driving, but can take up to 45 minutes depending on traffic and weather. No highways, only surface streets.

      2. I tolerate it. I’d much rather take public transit to work, but I do realize that I am lucky to have a ~30-minute commute with very little traffic on most days.

      3. I use my commute as my time to gear up in the morning and wind down in the evening. I put on music to suit my mood and reflect on what I have to do that day and the first tasks I need to get out of the way in the morning, or to reflect on how the day went or what I’m going to do when I get home on my way home.

      4. I moved cross-country for my job, so I had the luxury of knowing where I was going to work first and then selecting where I lived based on that. My metro area is notorious for its bad traffic, and my company is located in the suburbs of that city. SO I decided first off that I was going to live in the suburbs instead of the city because commuting from the city to the ‘burbs in the morning is a bit of a nightmare. I also knew I wanted to pick a place where I could avoid the highways in the morning. That narrowed it down quite a bit, so I started poking around in those areas. I actually asked a question here at AAM almost a year ago when I was deciding between places about commutes and what people felt was too long/too short and what was annoying about their commutes. It seemed general consensus that about 30ish minutes was the upper limit of what people thought was a good commute.

      I am worried about my husband’s job, though. Our place and town is pretty centrally located and most other places are relatively easy to get to, but if he gets a job in the city or in a town that’s about 45-60 minutes from us WITHOUT traffic (where one of our biggest employers has lots of jobs), that could make his commute really rough.

    110. Former Retail Manager*

      1. Commute ranges from 40 mins to an hour, if going to the office. Up to an hour and a half if going to a client location.
      2. I suppose I tolerate it. It’s pretty much a part of life in the area I live in.
      3. I don’t feel this strongly about a commute that I would ever describe it as “taking over my life.” However, it should be noted that I am not a go-go goer. I don’t leave work to pick up kids, hit a yoga class, and then get home to cook dinner. If I did, it might be more of an issue.
      4. My commute plays into where I live in NO WAY WHATSOEVER. Assuming you are buying and not renting, a mortgage is for 15-30 years….most jobs aren’t. Live in a community that you’re happy with. Jobs will change. I will say that, if buying, I would decide beforehand if you’re going to be within what you deem to be a reasonable commute considering that you may need to change jobs at some point. For example, could you find another job within a 20-30 minute radius of said house or is the economy limited where you are.

      5. My husband has a very different job than I do, and while it’s outside the home, he has one weekday off and a very short commute (15 mins…all backroads) and most doctor appts for the child are scheduled on that day. School emergencies really don’t happen that often, unless your kid is rowdy or sickly.

      Overall, it’s best if both spouses don’t have a crazy commute. Mine is obviously the bad one, but I make substantially more money so it’s worth it. If you plan to have children then I’d say that one parent needs to have a relatively short commute (15-20 mins is reasonable to me) and have the day care/doctor/school etc all be within that range. There probably will be plenty of times your imagibaby will get sick and need to be picked up early from day care, but once they hit school age is lessens substantially.

      And FWIW, if the commute is the only “bad” part of a job that exists, and it pretty much is for my current position, my viewpoint is to be grateful for the opportunity at a salary that I am happy with and co-workers and a manager that are not worthy of an AAM letter in the least.

    111. MarquisDeP*

      1) Approximately 5 seconds. I work from home 100% of the time.
      2) LOVE IT. Not sure I will be able to ever work outside of the home again. It would be tough for sure. I have taken a pay cut to go 100% virtual. Previously, I’d work from home 70% of the time and travel through 3 states 30% of the time (sales). Field work pays more but the long hauls were killer. Now, with few exceptions (full team or company meetings 1 – 2 times per year) I am exclusively virtual.
      3) There’s a different unique challenge in that, while I have a ton of flexibility (it’s 2p and I’m about to head to the gym) I will also likely be doing work on Saturday at 11p. You never really leave work. It’s always there.
      4) That’s another awesome thing; we could live anywhere we wanted.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Flexibility is such a double-edged sword. I love it, but I’ve also screwed myself over so many times thinking “Ohhhh it’s ok if I take the afternoon off, I will just make it up at 9 pm on Saturday!”
        On that note I should probably close this window for a bit!

    112. Marina*

      1. 20 minutes with no traffic. 45-60 on a usual work day.
      2. I like it a lot better since I’ve started listening to podcasts.
      3. I work from home one day a week, and try to flex my hours at least one other day so that my commute is not during rush hour. I basically consider my commute part of my work hours, so I just expect that I’ll be out of the house 8-6 most days and I don’t feel like it impacts my life all that much.
      4. We bought a house long before I got this job, so we picked where to live based on how we like the neighborhood, not jobs. Frankly I expect to change jobs far more frequently than I change where I live.
      5. We have two kids. I try to work from home or take PTO on doctor appointment days–if I take PTO I cram as many appointments as possible into one day. For emergency pickups, it doesn’t really bother me to be 20-30 minutes away. If it’s an actual emergency, an ambulance will be there quicker than I will in any situation. If it’s not an emergency, the school will probably have been dealing with it to some degree for ~half an hour before they call me anyway, and another little while won’t make that much difference.

      My husband does work part- time, so he’s available for the kids more often than I am. And he does shift work (nursing) so our hours are offset a bit. But his commute is longer than mine, 60 minutes with zero traffic.

      It also helps that my parents live in town and we’re close, so it’s definitely helpful to know they’re around as backup. I firmly believe all working parents need some sort of emergency backup, whether that’s family or paid care. When it rains it pours–the kid will always spike a fever on the day you have your big presentation, every time.

    113. Nicole Michelle*

      Ohhhh I so feel your pain here. So, I have an hour commute to work and an hour commute home, the good days are 40 minutes with a 10 minute walk to my job from the stop that let’s me off, and about the same 10 minute walk home. So even on a good day, my commute is 50 minutes.

      I tolerate it, I can’t say I fully hate it, which leads to # 3 –

      I read on the bus. And since writing is something I love, on the rare occasion, I’ve scribbled out ideas onto notebooks. Maybe for me since I take the bus it’s a bit easier because I can do other stuff. So, I don’t know if it makes it better.

      On the other hand though, because of some specific things going on financially, the likelihood of me moving closer to my job, is really low. Rents are going higher and I just can’t imagine my commute ever getting better. Jobs around my neighborhood are usually really low level so I can’t imagine much changing unless a miracle happens.

      So for me right now I feel really stuck and don’t like it and hope to find a workable change.

    114. MrsL*

      I have been in my new job for about 8 months and my commute (public transportation) is approximately 1 hour 15 minutes one way. I had my reservations about accepting the job because of the commute, because I have a 2 year old and I worried about not getting enough family-time. I spend the time reading and recharging between work and family-life. Its me-time that I learned to really appreciate.

      It has worked out surprisingly well for me, and the main reason for that is that the job was exactly what I had hoped it to be and my colleagues are great. My boss is very understanding about family-life and I am allowed a lot of flexibility in my work, where I can work from home at times. I telecommute on Fridays and there is never any problem with me staying at home caring for my sick child or attending doctors appointments when neccesary, as long as the quality of my work is not being compromised and I make sure to catch up on work after family business is taken care of.

      Sure, it is a bit of a challenge to make things work in our private lives. My husband has to do most of the daycare drop off and pick up and also jump in and pick up our child if there is an emergency. It’s though for me to be so far away whenever something happens. But overall, I feel like I do get enough time as a family. Our child stays up late enough for us to have playtime each day and we do also have the weekends together.

    115. Puffle*

      1. About 20-25 mins by car
      2. I actually enjoy it
      3. Various ways, really. I have a set up where I can play stuff on my phone through the car stereo, so I listen to a lot of music and podcasts. I make sure I always have something interesting to listen to on there.

      Also, I find that the way if I mentally frame my commute in a certain way I feel much better about it. I.e. I try to think about it as my time to either wake up properly and get in the right frame of mind (in the morning) or chill out and forget about work stuff (in the evening). That and I consciously try to brush off driving slights (i.e. another driver pulling out in front of me) and avoid getting stressed/ angry about them, which helps me to feel much more positive about things.

      It does help that I work early hours (8 to 4.30). I get home at 5 so it feels like I have loads of time to make dinner/ exercise/ do whatever, and also I avoid the worst of the traffic.

    116. the.kat*

      1. My commute is about a 2 minute walk down the driveway.
      2. I love, love, love not having to drive far in the winter but dislike never being able to get away from campus.
      3. Light-blocking curtains and hanging out on the back porch.
      4. N/A

      My campus duplex was part of the perks of the job. It’s nice but it really brings some additional responsibilities. If something needs to be picked up from the office, if someone needs to be let in somewhere on the weekends, etc.

    117. SouthBay Anon*

      1. 40-45 minutes on a good day. 60 minutes on an average day. 75 in a moderately ugly rainy day, 90+ if things go badly. I plan on 60-75 most days while allowing time for 90. My job is a call center-type where I absolutely need to be in by a certain time, so I make it happen.
      2. I don’t mind it. My particular commute is zen and non-stressful for the first two-thirds, then more merging/lanes/stressed out traffic for the last bit. I would have a much harder time in real highway traffic the whole commute (which is the norm in the Bay Area). My zen highway and non-commute hours make it doable.
      3. My expectation is that a 20-30 minute drive to work is normal. I tell myself that mine is just an extra 15-20 minutes. Some weeks I can work 4 days rather than 5, staying late one day to have a “free day” where I don’t need to make the drive.
      4. This is probably the big thing for me: my main social life/sport is located 3-5 minutes from my house. I’m involved in sport 4 days a week. If/when I move closer to work, I’ll be commuting to this (even if in a different location) and I’m looking at a 25-60 minute drive from just about any location that puts me at a 30 minute or less commute from work. My partner has been kind enough to move to my location. We may have to compromise on that in the next few years.

    118. Phoebe*

      I live in Atlanta and my commute is only 12 miles but can take any where from 20 minutes to an hour. That’s pretty a pretty average commute around here. I hate it, but I try to make my time productive by listening to podcasts while I drive. I don’t have a partner, so I made the decision on my own. When I first started working at my current job I was just 2 miles up the road. But the business grew and when we moved the owners decided they wanted to purchase space rather than rent. In order to find an affordable space to purchase we moved the office a few miles north, so my commute gained 10 miles. I love my job though, so I tolerate it. Honestly, I would much rather take public transportation, but Atlanta has a pretty poor and dysfunctional public transit system.

    119. Anne*

      Haven’t read all the replies, but here’s my two cents.

      1. About 30 minutes to work, however I do the daycare dropoff/pickup so that adds about 20-30 minutes, so total from home to work ranges from 45 minutes to an hour depending on traffic and how much time I chat with the daycare teachers.
      2. I tolerate it. I work in a downtown area and we live more in the suburbs, so as long as I work in this area (which I love!) it’s going to be about the same length of time. It wasn’t bad at all before we had kids and I didn’t have that extra commute.
      3. I use it as my chill time. I listen to music I like (although my son is approaching 2 and so at some point I may have to switch to more kid-friendly stuff) and just zone out.
      4. We bought our house six years ago when we were both at different jobs, at the time we picked based on being close to both of our families and the type of house/neighborhood we wanted. We’re looking at moving and my big stipulation is that I won’t commute more than 30 minutes.
      5. We picked a daycare near my work because choices were limited near our house and I wanted to be able to go nurse him during lunch when he was a baby. My husband’s work involves traveling to different shops and he drives a work vehicle so he’s not always available on short notice. My work is much more flexible (salaried office job) and my boss has 3 kids so she’s very understanding when my son is sick and I need to go pick him up or if we have a doctor’s appointment. We’ve taken turns staying home with him when he’s sick, depending on each other’s workload (and since we both work full-time I refuse to believe that it’s automatically my responsibility to stay home).

    120. Rebecca in Dallas*

      1. How long is your commute? About 10 minutes
      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it? Love it! I wish I could walk actually, but I have to cross a highway that doesn’t have many pedestrian-friendly places to cross. I also love that I can go home for lunch and/or to let the dog out.
      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life? n/a
      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes? We already rented in this general area and had short commutes and wanted to keep it that way. We looked a couple of different neighborhoods within the same area and found one with great prices and within a good school district. (We don’t have kids, but it was still a bonus if we needed to think about resell values.)

      I’ve had a 30-ish minute commute before, I already hated that job but the commute definitely didn’t help. I posted upthread as well, but it’s not unusual for people in the DFW metroplex to live in the suburbs and commute 45 min+ for work. We definitely spent more on housing than we would have if we’d moved further out, but having short commutes (not just for work, but for the things we like to do in our free time around town) was really important to both of us.

    121. Sam E.*

      1. 10 minute walk each way, although right now I drive the 3 minutes because of winter. I don’t feel like drivers can see me over the snowbanks when I walk.
      2. & 3. It’s great because I don’t feel rushed in the morning. and because it is a few streets away I can’t physically see the building or the street my work is on from my street, so I feel like I’m truly away. The physical separation makes for a mental separation.
      4. Partner and I recently moved back to the area, and our preferred location was actually on the other side of town. It was by fluke that we (very last minute) scheduled a viewing at our current home, and it ticked all the boxes, although commute wasn’t one of them. FWIW, right now I’m the only one who works out of the home. I previously had a 20 minute commute, and thought it wouldn’t be the end of the world to do that here as well.

    122. Ghost Town*

      1. Commute is roughly 30 minutes to go about 20 miles. We live the county over from where my husband and I both work (university town). It’s not so bad, but if there’s an accident, road closure, or bad weather, we have limited options for going around obstacles. And you have to know about said obstacles well enough in advance to take the one or two work-arounds
      2. Have grown to tolerate/dislike it. (Try to remember that this commute would be normal to short in other locations)
      3. Sometimes we can’t. Other times, we just have to plan. We live in one town, but work, have doctors, son’s daycare, etc. in the other town. Over the weekend, we may choose to have breakfast at a local to us place, instead of driving into town. Or we’ll combine breakfast out with errands at locations in other town.
      4. Bought out where we did so we could have more house for less money. A sizable minority of university employees (and employees in general) live in our town/county and work at the university or in the university town. That’s what gave us the idea. Home prices gave us the push.

      Personal bonus: we’re a one car family. (technically, we have a beater truck that can make the drive if absolutely necessary and the weather is good)
      5. Our son is in daycare right now, so we chose a daycare close to work and his pediatrician. I’m exempt and my husband is currently non-exempt (and in classes), so I take the lion’s share of sick days, doctor’s appts, etc. If we have a known Ghost Town needs the car for my own or son’s appt., I drop everyone off, and proceed to work/appt as necessary. If something comes up (like son runs a fever and needs to go home), I walk over to where husband parked the car and then go get him. If it is early enough in the day to make sense, I’ll go home. If it is late enough in the day that going home means I’d get home and turn around to pick up my husband, I’ll probably chill in the car or bring son to my office (separate office, closed door, obviously dependent on why he’s being sent home. they send home for any fever over a certain temp, even if it is just teething).

      So, a lot of logistical calculus and driving

    123. GreenTeaPot*

      I started out with a 40-minute commute via mass transit, then a 20-minute drive into the city, next a ten-minute drive downtown and finally, a home office. I liked the longer commute best, it gave me time to decompress at night.

    124. Cath in Canada*

      1) By bike: 20 minutes on the way in, 25-30 on the way home, depending on how much energy I have to climb all the hills
      By transit: 25 minutes

      I snowshoed to work one snowy day when transit wasn’t running – it took about an hour and 10 minutes. That was really fun as a one-off!

      2) I mostly love cycling, and I get grumpy when icy/windy weather or other circumstances conspire to keep me off my bike for more than a week at a time. I have the occasional bad day when I feel lucky to make it to work in one piece, but those are pretty rare. Even when it’s pelting rain, it’s better than being on a crowded, steamy bus with people’s umbrellas dripping on me. Part of my ride goes through an old cemetery, full of beautiful mature trees and with a view of the mountains in clear weather; I’ve seen eagles there, too. The streets I ride on are lined with trees, which right now are covered in pink and white blossoms and which are gorgeous in the autumn, too.

      I mostly don’t like transit much, but I tolerate it. It’s definitely more convenient than cycling if I’m going out straight after work. My current route is crowded (I rarely get a seat on the bus and never on the train), but not as badly as the one I took from our old apartment, and it’s pretty fast once you’re actually on. Discovering some compelling podcasts has really helped me to keep a lid on the anxiety I used to sometimes feel on a crowded bus. I do tend to get frustrated with people who don’t maintain an awareness of their surroundings and who block the sidewalk / aisle / platform / escalators though!

      3) Not needed when cycling. On transit: podcasts. Having the option to mix things up really helps in general too. Cycling is physically harder but (usually) mentally easier than cycling, so if my legs are feeling really particularly tired one day I’ll take transit the next; if I have Had It with transit, I’ll cycle for a few days even if it’s not convenient (e.g. if I’m going out after work).

      4) Good transit connections were important factors for me when we bought our house. The two bus lines that serve our place aren’t the best in the city, but are by no means the worst either. There are designated bike routes (side streets that allow cars too but have painted bike lanes and/or traffic calming features) all over the city – we’re so lucky! – so that wasn’t a concern.

      My husband drives to work. He works on short term contracts in different locations all over the city and its suburbs, for a couple of weeks to several months at a time, so he just wanted somewhere reasonably well connected to most of his usual workplaces. He only has to cross a bridge (there are lots of bridges here) if he’s working at one particular studio, which isn’t too bad.

      5) N/A, our cats don’t care as long as we come home eventually!

    125. Rob Lowe can't read*

      1. My current commute is about 25 minutes in the morning, 30-45 minutes in the evening depending on the day of the week/what time I leave work. Last year, I commuted 2 hours each way on public transit.
      2. I tolerate it. The evening commute could only get worse if I adjusted my schedule (which isn’t really an option, I have a butt-in-seat job), so this is probably as good as it gets unless I move closer to my job or get a job closer to home.
      3. Timing my drive home is key. I try to prepare ahead of time so I can bolt within 10 minutes of my official work day ending. I also listen to tons of podcasts/the Hamilton OCR to make the drive more fun. And I bring a snack to eat on the drive home, because I’m always hungry then.
      4. Hah. So we actually moved closer to my old job last summer…right in time for that employer’s funding to get cut, and there went my position! I did look at several positions that are much closer to home, and was actually offered one that would have been only a ten minute commute, but I couldn’t turn down the money and the preferential responsibilities/projects my current job was offering. We didn’t just move because of my job, though – we used to live in the ridiculously expensive city where we both work, and we were sick of paying through the nose for a one bedroom basement apartment and doing battle with college students for parking spaces. So now we live in a slightly less expensive suburb and are much happier.
      5. No kids/don’t want any, so no personal anecdotes. But many people I work with who have children who aren’t old enough for school put them in daycare near someone’s work, rather than close to home.

    126. BeeBee*

      1. I used to have a 60-120 min commute (one way).
      2. I tolerated it. There were days when I hated it so much, but what else could I do?
      3. I think I mostly survived because of my books and music. Just get lost in other universe and time flies.
      4. NA

    127. SAHM*

      Hubby does a 45 min commute to BART and then it’s an hour on the train. We moved out here for housing affordability, good school district, etc. All of which are huge factors into my ability to be a SAHM, but the trade off is the two hour commute (4hrs total) a day. When I was working, his commute was 45min-1 HR, mine was literally 10 minutes, and we had a daycare close to the highschool where my mom worked. Mom also watched The Kid for free during the summer which helped a lot. The downside to that was no backyard, a crappy boss, and it’s HARD to leave your kids. I’m much happier now that we live in a more family oriented community, have a place WITH a backyard and I can be home with the kids. It sucks that his commute is 2 hrs each way, but it is what is.

    128. De Minimis*

      1. Currently about 45-50 minutes for my wife to drop me off at the train station, then about another 10 minutes or so by public transit. On bad traffic days the driving part can be closer to an hour. The train station is actually located about 16 miles from our house. My wife drives to her job in the area so the commute makes sense.
      2. Like it okay…it still beats my former commute, rural location 70 miles from my house, took about 80-90 minutes each way.
      3. I can’t, commuting is just a huge factor in people’s lives where we live.
      4. The locations closer to work are either unaffordable, unsafe, or not practical for us. We are considering moving to where we’re at least on the same side of the bay [would save a toll each day] but it would not really make the commute much shorter.

    129. Penny*

      My average commute time is an hour each way. One weeks like this, with Spring Break, it’s more like 35-45 minutes (with good weather and few traffic incidents), but on a bad day, it can take 1.5 hour one way. Luckily, I’m able to carpool most days, which brings commute time down to 30-45 minutes on way most of the time. Unfortunately, this is pretty standard in my city which is very large & highly populated & has essentially zero useful public transportation unless you live and work inside the city. Before this job, I couldn’t carpool so it was a full hour each way. Of course, I hated it, but what can you do? The jobs are in the city, so unless I was willing/able to move, that was my only option.

      Can you get into a carpool or vanpool in your area?

      As far as having kids (which I don’t btw), that has a lot to do with the flexibility of your schedule, so that’s really important to consider in your job.

    130. Thyri*

      Mine’s 40 minutes and I’m sick of it. I’ve been doing it for almost five years. I pass the time by calling my mother on a headset or listening to music. I’m thinking about renting some audiobooks from the library but I don’t always like the voice of the person reading.

      1. Penny*

        @Thyri- I started borrowing some audio books from my library (that I can download online) and I really enjoy it. I especially like this for business related books which, while i find the content can be great, are still sometimes really hard for me to read- I just want to fall asleep like I’m reading a textbook. So being able to listen is so much better for me and gives me something to focus on while driving.

    131. Audiophile*

      My current commute is between 35-45 minutes, but it’s basically all highway. I don’t mind it when there’s no traffic, as it feels relatively short.

      When I commuted into the city, it was a 10 minute drive to the train station, 80-90 minutes on the train, taking the shuttle line 2 stops downtown (maybe 10 minutes). I didn’t mind the long train ride and preferred it to driving.

    132. Panda Bandit*

      1. Currently 20 minutes. I used to have 90 minutes each way and that was awful.

      2. I love it. It’s the second shortest commute I ever had. I absolutely hated the long ones and felt like they were eating up all my spare time.

      3. I toughed out the long commutes for a couple of years until I moved to an apartment that was closer to my work. During the commute I’d listen to music, try to nap sometimes, or think about my creative projects. I can’t read in moving vehicles so that was out.

      4 & 5. No partner and no children so I didn’t need to factor them in.

      45 minutes is at the upper limit for me. It sounds like that for you too. Imo it’s better to move closer or see if you can arrange to work from home sometimes. Quality of life is important.

    133. Nobody*

      1. It’s a little under 15 minutes for the drive, but it takes 10-15 minutes to park, get through security, and get to my desk, and I like to leave a little margin, so I leave my house 35-40 minutes before my start time.

      2. It’s nice being reasonably close to work, and there’s almost no traffic because it’s a rural area. I once did a 6-month internship where I had a 50-minute commute, and I would never want to live that far from work again.

      3. Its not much of an issue since I don’t have to go very far. I only get to listen to 3 or 4 songs and I’m there.

      4. I’m single with no kids, so it was a pretty simple decision. I chose to live close to work because I go to work more often than I go anywhere else. Most of my coworkers choose to live closer to the city, which is an hour away, and while I envy their proximity to civilization, it’s not worth spending an extra 90 minutes in the car every day.

    134. Joanna*

      1. How long is your commute?
      The train trip itself is about 25 minutes, but adding in getting to/from the station and waiting for trains is about 50 minutes.
      2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it?
      Unless our unreliable train service is screwing up again, I don’t mind it.
      3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
      I plan my mornings well (including stuff like setting out outfits the night before) so my mornings aren’t ruined by mad rushes trying to make it to the train at the painfully early time I need to. I also find worthwhile stuff to do on the train like reading books/blogs or replying to emails which makes commuting time seem less of a black hole. When I had to commute by car, audiobooks were a big sanity saver.
      4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes?
      My city has an out of control property market, so I pretty much have to live wherever it is I can find somewhere suitable to rent, although I do especially look for places close to train stations.

    135. FiveWheels*

      1 I rely on unreliable public transport, so this varies, but my average commute is 45 minutes each way.

      2 I like it just fine! Waiting for the bus, sitting on the bus, and walking to the office are low stress 90% of the time.

      3 I don’t see why it would. For people who work in the city parking is prohibitive so almost everyone either walks 30-45 minutes or gets the train /bus for about the same length of time.

      4 Moving for a job isn’t really something people do here. I live near where I grew up.

    136. Kimberlee, Esq*

      My commute is about 40 mins (spiking to an hour if the trains are delayed). It’s fine… I like working from home to get the extra hour and a half of sleep, but when something stressful happens at my job and I find out in the morning, listening to my comedy podcasts for 40 minutes on the commute totally recenters me. I don’t like a ton of podcasts, but I feel like just straight comedy (not news or intense stories) is the perfect mixture of distracting and ignorable if something more interesting is happening. And after 40 minutes of the McElroy brothers, I come in to work restored of optimism and happiness, which makes stress infinitely easier to deal with.

    137. Nicole*

      8 minutes, and that’s only because it’s through a residential / school zone that’s 25 mph or it would be even shorter. Don’t hate me! :)

      Previous commutes where 20-30 minutes which were ok although I wouldn’t want anything longer. Other drivers up my anxiety level. Even my short 2.5 mile commute isn’t immune to terrible drivers pretty much every single day.

      1. Bibliovore*

        1. How long is your commute?
        11 minutes — door to door driving. Twenty minutes if I take the bus. Ex-job- for 15 years- at least 60 minutes, 2 subways from Brooklyn to Upper West Side.

        2. Do you like it/hate it/tolerate it?
        Love my commute. Learned how to drive. (Two years driving now)

        Ex- job- despised my commute the first year. Loved the job so got used to it. Read, listened to audio books/ podcasts and knit.

        3. How do you keep it from taking over your life?
        I didn’t. It was just the price I had to pay for my really great job. I served on the Audies, so got free downloads of audio books for judging. Reviewed audio books- YA and kids so had those to listen to. Forgave myself if I just didn’t have the energy to do anything on a “school night” Had to be on the platform at 7:15 to assure an “on-time” arrival at school by 8:30. Classes began at 9:00 am. Got on the subway home around 5:00 ish. Really resented staying any later of school events and hated coming in early for team meetings at 7:30 am. Although my position was year-round- had more flexibility in the summer when I didn’t have a fixed schedule of classes.

        No problem now- can be home to walk the dog at lunch if I need to. Flexible schedule means that I no longer have to be “on-time” unlike a teaching schedule.
        Ex-Job
        Mr. Bibliovore worked less than 20 minutes away during most of that time. NYC is easy in that dinner or components can be easily picked up on the way home. Fresh Direct was a the best thing that happened for convenience. Many of my co-workers came from NJ and they took the subway then a bus/train. Could have been worse.

        4. How did you and your partner decide where to live, relative to your commutes?

        When we moved to MN, we decided that because the ultimate plan was for him to retire in a few years and that I had the horrendous commute for the past 15, we had to live convenient to the campus. (but not so close that undergrads were puking on our lawn) The house we chose was a ½ a mile from the village main strip with a grocery store/bookstore/public library/ and two cafes. Half a mile in the other direction was a University satellite campus with a free bus that shuttled to the main campus where I worked, about a 10 to 15 minute bus ride. I did that until I learned to drive.

        Mr. Bibliovore commuted 30 minutes to 45 minutes to his MN office until he retired a year ago.

  2. TGIF XD*

    A lot of the jobs I am interested in applying for in the future want candidates that have a background in writing for the Internet, such as managing a social media account for a company or writing for an online magazine/newspaper or maintaining an ongoing blog. I’m looking right now at some volunteer/temporary/part-time work to start filling up my resume but, in the meantime, I thought I would start up my own blog to get some practice.

    Does anyone have any tips for starting and maintaining a blog? Including strong themes, as I’m still trying to think about a semi-professional theme I could write about. Also any ideas for finding volunteer/temp/part-time work that would also fit this need?

    1. katamia*

      Prepare a backlog of posts so you can throw something up on days when you don’t feel like writing something new.

      1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

        This! I run a just for fun blog, but still like to keep it active. Having backlogs saves my butt and I also find that once the ball is rolling and I have written one post, it’s easier to keep going and write five than stop and pick up a few days later to write another one

      2. Ama*

        Also if you can come up with a regular feature that’s relatively quick to put together (link posts, “Top Five on Fridays,” a photo post) that can help generate content and give your writing brain a break.

        1. Turtle Candle*

          This is a great idea. Even on my totally for fun fandom blog, it’s nice to be able to lean on a theme like “shameless self promotion Mondays” (reblogging older art, meta, or gifsets that I either think deserve more attention or that I want to provide additional commentary for) and “recommendations Thursday” where I rec one or more other blogs/posts. The structure is nice.

      3. Ad Astra*

        This is the best advice that I didn’t take when I started my own blog. I go weeks or even months at a time with nothing new because I haven’t had the time to write something from scratch, and it definitely hurts my numbers. Preparing a few things all at once will help you get people coming back to your blog on a regular basis.

    2. Cass*

      This is completely observational but health/fitness blogs and parenting blogs seem to do really well.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      There are a lot of freelance writing web sites that offer assignments that will give you experience and some resume points– they don’t pay a lot in general, but some recognizable businesses use them, and you can build up stats about writing productivity and client reviews that work on a resume.

    4. A Teacher*

      I maintain the twitter feed for the NFP I volunteer for and help with FB and maintain a pinterest feed as well. The analytic section is what we care the most about because it lets us see the audience we are reaching. Direct Messaging and finding the right tagging/hashtags has become important. I took it over about a 10 months ago with zero followers and we’re approaching 800, as a very small NFP that is all volunteers I’m happy with that progress. Some of our posts on twitter are hitting 10k a day and on FB we reached a new all time high of 25k views a week ago.

      To answer the second part of your question: find an all volunteer NFP that needs someone to do their social media. I’m a high school teacher that knows nothing about digital marketing or writing. I’ve had to learn as I go and if I can figure out some of it, I’m sure you’ll do a great job.

    5. Jean*

      Thank you for this question! I look forward to reading the responses above (and hopefully below as others chime in later).

    6. Erin*

      I’m lucky to have a techie husband who helps me with that side of things but….my number one piece of blogging advice would be to have relevant, frequent content.

      Yes, if you have a great theme and you use SEO and all of that great stuff, that certainly helps. But no one is going to care if the content isn’t relevant. And vice versa – if you have great content that people want to read about, no one is going to be like, “Hey, I’m not reading this cause it’s on blogspot.com instead of having its own unique URL.”

      Secondary advice: Be patient. It can feel like you’re talking to yourself for awhile but the content will build up. It took about a year before I got noticed, but now I’m being picked up on other sites, making ad revenue, etc.

      And check out Google Analytics. Helpful.

    7. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I would really push you to look more for volunteer or online gigs. Even things like writing for elite daily or thought catalog seem to get more weight than a personal blog (unless you are one of the few that go big).

      On my LinkedIn feed, I get a ton of volunteer jobs through places like the taproot foundation and catchafire.

      1. Turtle Candle*

        Open source software often has a real need for volunteer documentation, release announcements, blog posts, etc. I know that well-written online writing of that nature is a real boon when applying for writing-related positions at my company.

        1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

          This would a huge highlight on a resume!

          I would love to see something like this!

    8. Oryx*

      Starting a blog? Easy. Maintaining a blog takes a lot of hard work and dedication so if you’re not in for the long haul I’d suggest seeking other avenues for this particular experience. There are tons of blogs out there that were updated for awhile and now just sit and languish because the blogger didn’t have the heart to follow through and readers can ALWAYS tell when a blogger is basically doing the internet version of phoning it in. I stop reading blogs that do that.

    9. AP*

      I work on a web content team, and we were recently hiring. One candidate came from a traditional print background, but reached out and made efforts to do guest blogging about marketing topics for different sites. I thought it was really great- she provided the guest blogs as writing samples, but didn’t have to worry about the continual content generation and upkeep involved in a personal blog.

    10. TheAssistant*

      I help run a 100% volunteer-run organization. We have a very lame blog at the moment. The best volunteer thing I ever saw was someone who emailed our Communications coordinator with 5-6 ideas of regular posts she could do to contribute to our blog. Some are about us, some on a related topic, all very relevant to our audience. We would have never advertised for a volunteer position like this, but the fact that she came prepared with lots of ideas made us realize the value. So if you’re okay with something less structured in terms of volunteer work, or you actually like the idea of creating your own role, I’d suggest looking for small, volunteer-run nonprofits that interest you and just ask. The worst they can do is say no, really.

    11. Joanna*

      While of course what you choose to write about should be something that at least a small group of people will want to read about, it’s important that you’re genuinely interested in it. If it’s a topic you don’t really care about, you’ll struggle to keep going and the lack of passion will show through in your writing.

  3. SP*

    Not sure if this is work related enough but- I create a lot of tables at work. I use Excel whenever I can but sometimes I need to use Word, which always drives me a bit crazy. Any tips/suggestions/resources for creating/manipulating tables in Word?

    1. Fabulous*

      What issues are you having with Word’s tables? They link to Excel spreadsheets. I’ve never had difficulties. I actually prefer to use Word sometimes because you can plan out your page more precisely since you can move everything around the page like you would pictures using the “Wrap Text” formatting.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Are the cells filled with text or numbers?

      I do mostly text tables in Word. I added a sheet in the style guide for standard table formatting so my tables always look the same. Header row always has the same shade of gray, Borders are gridded, 1/2 point lines, etc. I also created a Style for Table Text and added it to the Normal template. Keeps the spacing even and font consistent.

      Remember that you can tab within a table using [CTRL] + [TAB], which is nice when you need to indent subcategories. (No, you don’t have to hold down the space bar to move something over. Oy!)

      If it’s a lot of text, the rows will break across the page, which can be hard to read. In those cases, I set the page Landscape and increase the page size (Legal or Tabloid) so more text fits on a single line.

      Some like to use a different font for tables than standard text. We’re more about expediency than presentation here, so I use the same font. I will adjust the point size a little smaller to help text fit. If your style guide mandates a Serif font, in Table Properties > Layout, set the default cell margins wide enough so text doesn’t run into the cell border.

      It will take some tweaking. Once you get something you like, just copy the formatting over and over.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        An extra tip for text in Excel, you can use [Alt]+[Enter] to force text to the next row but in the same cell.
        Way, way back in the day we would enter all sorts of text into excel and this tip blew my mind.

        4. A Bug!*

          A related tip is that holding ctrl and shift while you type a space or a hyphen creates a “non-breaking” version of each of those (in Word for sure, don’t know about Excel but imagine it’s the same), so that you don’t get a line break in the middle of a series of words that properly belong together. It’s a really minor thing but something that would bother me a lot, and before I knew about the non-breaking versions I’d sometimes end up re-wording a sentence just to change the line break.

      2. Jules the First*

        Also, if you open up table properties, there are options to prevent rows breakinh across a page, and to repeat header rows on each new page, which makes them much easier to read.

      3. afiendishthingy*

        “Remember that you can tab within a table using [CTRL] + [TAB], which is nice when you need to indent subcategories. (No, you don’t have to hold down the space bar to move something over. Oy!)

        Omg. Game changer.

      4. Xay*

        Also, you can use bullets within a Word table, but to change the list level/indent the entire bullet, you can use [ALT]+[SHIFT]+[RIGHT ARROW] to move right or [ALT]+[SHIFT]+[LEFT ARROW] to move left.

    4. Anna No Mouse*

      If I know I’m going to have more than the most basic of tables to create, I’ll do it in Excel first, make it just how I want it, then I’ll copy and paste into a Word doc if needed.

      1. Stephanie (HR)*

        This!

        Word tables are very finicky, and the less you touch them after they are created, the less trouble they will give you. I recommend building in Excel and pasting into Word.

        If you can’t, or it’s a living document that needs to be constantly updated, just keep in mind that there are all sorts of hidden settings (like whether or not it stays in line with text, or the text moves and the table doesn’t.) Happy to answer more specific questions.

      2. Analyst*

        +1. Word really isn’t good for generating tables but they can hold them just fine. Just keep a separate Excel file with all relevant tables for your word doc so updates are easy.

      3. Finman*

        And when you paste them into word, really prefer pasting as a picture vs. having a live table in word. Much easier to manipulate a picture size wise vs. a live table.

        1. calonkat*

          Having a picture of data makes the data inaccessible for people who are using a screenreader though.

    6. Zangelbert Bingledack*

      You can do a surprising amount of math and automation in Word tables using field functions. Of course Excel is always easier, but I know there are times when embedding an excel table just gets messy. There’s a great document that provides instructions and examples, which you can download here: http://www.gmayor.com/downloads.htm. WordFieldMaths.zip is near the bottom of the page.

      1. Pwyll*

        This just reminded me of the crazy boss I had once who refused to use Word. She literally concocted a massive Excel spreadsheet with variable sizes of cells in which she “typeset” all of her documents, letters, reports, everything so that every single character and space was exactly where she wanted it to be. In some documents every word was in its own cell.

        That said, even after that experience, I agree with you. Excel FTW!

        2. afiendishthingy*

          What????? I like Excel and everything but I can’t even imagine how that would work.

    8. nofelix*

      Word just IS crazy – eventually you may learn its idiosyncrasies (until they release a new version). I don’t really have any great tips except to use another program and import the table as a PDF. You can also embed an Excel table in Word but I have not looked in that Pandora’s box to say whether it’s a good idea.

      To add cell padding to improve the look of the table. Right click on the + on the top left of the table, choose Table Properties and then under the Table tab click Options. Change the default cell margins to 0.15cm or similar.

      To move content within a table, create a new row/column where needed, select the content you want to move, Copy and Paste into the blank cells, then click Delete Row (/Column) under the Layout tab. There are a couple of options for pasting into a table, which work unreliably but are worth exploring if something doesn’t behave.

    9. hermit crab*

      A few things I can think of:

      1. Many bizarre formatting problems in Word (even those that, at first, appear to have nothing to do with tables) can be fixed by going to Table Properties –> Text Wrapping and making sure it’s set to None.

      2. It’s not as much of a problem in Word as in Excel, but it’s still often better to create the appearance of merged cells by adjusting the borders rather than actually merging them. This is especially good practice if you are creating documents with accessibility requirements (e.g., for Section 508 compliance). Other accessibility best practices are to make sure you set your header row(s) to repeat at the top of each page and to not let rows break across pages.

      3. If you are using styles in your document (and you should be!) create separate styles (different from your regular paragraph style) for table text and for table headers. This way, you can apply formatting consistently and if you need to adjust your normal paragraph style (e.g., to make it double spaced) it won’t wreck the formatting in your table.

      4. The default cell margin settings in Word make things hard to read (at least, I think so). Our standard practice here is to set cell margins to 0.04″ on all sides.

      5. The “Row” and “Column” menus under Table Properties can be great troubleshooting tools because they let you step through areas of your table in sequence. I recommend clearing the “specify height” check boxes for both rows and columns unless you really want to specify those values.

    10. lulu*

      One thing I use a lot is Right click: Table properties, then select prefer width 100% measure in %. Only works if indent from left is zero. That’s useful when the table is too big and won’t fit in the page. Then you can see everything at a glance.

    11. Van Wilder*

      Can you make it in Excel and copy it as a table into word? That’s probably what I’d do.

    12. afiendishthingy*

      I work a lot with big text tables in Word. If I have to add a section in the middle of the table and I’m copy and pasting rows from elsewhere, I add a blank row where I want the new section to start, then go to the row below that and click “Split table” from the Layout tab. Then just click in the first cell of the blank row and paste your rows there- saves you from pressing “insert row” about 50 times.

      I also get some good use out of “Distribute rows” and “Distribute columns.”

    13. themmases*

      Definitely just manipulate any numeric data in Excel and paste it into Word. For example maybe there is a way to change the number of decimal places or number format en masse in Word, but why bother when it’s obvious how to do it in Excel?

      If you find yourself wanting to do the same types of things to tables once they’re in Word, try saving your changes as a table style. They are analogous to text styles and will save you a lot of time if you invest in seeing them up up front. Alternatively, play around with the preset ones in the table design ribbon and see if there’s one you like with few or no alterations. Then in the future you can paste in a plain table from Excel and just apply the style.

  4. Eleven*

    How do you properly assess your supervisor when you have little interaction with her? I work independently in another part of the building, and I really have no issues with her.

    It’s my first time having to assess a supervisor, and I’m really struggling with what to say. Part of the assessment is multiple choice answering agree/disagree, which was fairly easy, but there is a spot to write a recommendation for improvement. I think the writing spot is optional, but I don’t want to leave it blank, unless I have to. I’m at a loss for what to put down. I don’t really see her “in action” in her own workspace, I’m sure if I did, I’d be able to have suggestions. But from my standpoint, she’s always very helpful, is always happy to answer questions, and there isn’t anything she can do differently that would make things easier for me (or none that I can think of). What questions can I ask myself to consider her work from a different perspective? Or is it okay to truly not have any suggestions for her?

    1. Irishgal*

      Aren’t you being asked to assess her as your supervisor so you are seeing her in action and your comments about how she responds to your requests would be ideal for that box?

    3. Court*

      I’ve never had to do one of these but I don’t see why it wouldn’t be okay to not have suggestions. Actually, I think getting suggestions for improvement from people who have never seen the downsides of my work style/ethic would really grate on me. If you don’t know much about her day-to-day work, it doesn’t seem beneficial to make something up just to have something to say.

      But if you see that she’s doing things well, I would absolutely write that in! That kind of feedback is so important, especially when it comes from people who don’t interact with you often. It shows that her overall demeanor in the office is positive and that she’s contributing in a good way to the company.

      tldr; Write about what you know of her from personal experience, even if that doesn’t include “improvements’ to her work.

    4. New Math*

      If your supervisor were filling out a review form for you, and she didn’t have any specific areas that she thought needed improvement, would you want her to come up with something just to fill in the form?

      The purpose of this review is two-fold, both to give your supervisor feedback and to let the company know if there are any issues they need to be aware of. Only fill in the blank if you want to do both of those things.

      1. KG*

        I would also suggest you could put positive feedback, instead of just constructive criticism in this space.

  5. Guilt-ridden Job Thief*

    I am in such an awkward position and I’d like some general advice for how to deal with it, or just how I should adjust my thinking so it doesn’t weigh on me so heavily. I graduated in 2014 into a super-saturated field, and after temping and a short-term contract, I was really lucky to land a full-time permanent government job in my field. I had been applying to jobs all around the country, and the one I got happened to be located in a very economically depressed region of the country.

    I knew there would be some resentment of an outsider coming in and taking a government job, but what I didn’t expect was that I would be working alongside some of those resentful people! Two of my current co-workers (who are now still part-time, without benefits) had been doing many of my current duties and they had sort of assumed one of them had the job locked up, but there were language requirements that neither met. They are pretty obviously resentful of me, although they are basically nice people who do their best to hide it.

    Still, I feel SO guilty whenever they mention anything about their financial situations or their plans for the future. It’s especially bad when they say it in front of other people, because I can just feel the resentment of all the others, and I know their sympathy is with the local who was cheated out of work by someone from the big city. The thing is that our field is still super competitive and finding another full-time permanent job would be extremely difficult, leaving quickly would be seen as a snub to the region, plus, except for the guilt, I actually really love my job. Any words of wisdom?

    1. Dawn*

      You are NOT responsible for anyone else’s life. You said right here why you got the job- you met the language requirements, and they did not. That’s a factual statement that is exactly why you got the job and they did not. You learned the language, you had the qualifications, they did not, that was the determining factor in getting the job, you got the job. There’s nothing to feel guilty about- you didn’t DO anything! It’s like if you needed to bake a chocolate cake and you had to choose between two boxes of cake mix- one that was vanilla flavored and one that was chocolate flavored. You’d choose the CHOCOLATE cake mix if you had to make a CHOCOLATE cake, right? So you’re the box of chocolate cake mix in this scenario, and your co-workers are the boxes of vanilla cake mix. You had what was needed to “make the cake”, and your co-workers did not.

      The fact that they’re sour grapes about the process is a concern and one I’d bring up with my manager if I were you. However, their poor behavior IS NOT YOUR FAULT NOR IS IT YOUR PROBLEM TO FIX.

    2. AMG*

      The job does not belong to them, it was an open req. Also, you are not responsible for other people’s finances. It is that simple. The very name you have given yourself as a Job Thief is misguided. I got a job as an outsider that many people wanted. Some were resentful, and some were very immature about it like your coworkers. It was never theirs to own and this is not on you, it’s on them.

      Now, my boss is leaving and there is heavy competition for his job. I am going for it and I will not feel guilty if I get it. Believe me, other people gunning for jobs don’t feel this level of guilt when they get the position and someone else doesn’t. You coworkers are off base and asinine. Don’t give into this guilt trip. Enjoy your job and remember, you never need to make yourself small for other people to try and feel big. We all stand on our own merit.

    3. Minion*

      You are NOT a job thief! You applied for a job and were hired, presumably after an interview process in which either a hiring manager or committee evaluated all available candidates, likely including the local, and came to the conclusion that you were the best candidate for the position.
      Also, if you quit right now and found another job, there’s absolutely no guarantee the hiring manager would hire the local even then. There are likely reasons the local wasn’t hired. So leaving a position you love is not a fix.
      The only thing you can reasonably be expected to do is to be kind to the others as much as it is possible to be without being a doormat or a target for resentful and angry behavior. Their financial situation is not your fault. If you feel that it is, then please consider that my financial situation could always be improved and I really feel that you are responsible for that, so please send me a monthly stipend to help me pay for my pool boy and we’ll call it even.
      Don’t feel guilty for reaping the benefit of being a stellar candidate. That “outsider” crap will die down eventually and, in the meantime, just keep enjoying your job and being awesome at it. And sending my stipend.

    4. Amy M the HR Lady*

      Well, first let me say congrats! Landing a government job is not easy to do, so good for you. Second, never feel guilty that you were the better candidate and landed the job. It seems you have additional skills that they do not – good for you, too bad for them.
      I also am living and working in an area of the country that is…very different from where I have lived in the past. I landed a wonderful job doing exactly what I want, but I am definitely the outsider. My accent (or lack of one) is different, I am a salaried employee working with low paid hourly employees and overworked decently paid employees, and, as a stranger to this part of the country, everything I do or say is different from what my co-workers would do. To top it off, we are here temporarily (not more than a few years) because of my husband’s job and so I am the one who took a great job from a local when I won’t even be staying here long. I feel no guilt, my co-workers are very nice people but their place in life has nothing to do with me, I have worked hard to get where I am and I refuse to let others make me feel less deserving than I am. I hope in time you will feel the same. :-)

    5. RVA Cat*

      ” I know their sympathy is with the local who was cheated out of work by someone from the big city. ”

      Did you, yourself, do anything unethical to get this job – like *lie* about your qualifications, rather than just having skills they didn’t have? If not, you have done Nothing Wrong, and no one was “cheated” out of anything. You applied for a job, management chose you for whatever reason.

      Please don’t take their resentment personally, and also remember it wasn’t that long ago that women in the workplace were accused of “stealing” jobs from men, etc. That said, if you have room in your schedule, volunteering at a food bank, etc. to help needy people in the community should help ease some of this guilt – as well as being a great way to meet people. It sounds to me like you need to make friends outside of work and build social support after relocating, so definitely look for other groups and activities as well.

      1. emvic*

        If any “cheating” was involved, I’d say they “cheated” themselves by not having the needed qualifications. A foreign language is nothing to smirk at. Enjoy your work, be kind to your coworkers and forget about guilt. To turn tables, would any of them feel any guilt for “stealing” the job from you, freshly graduated in a competitive field in dire need of a job? Yeah, I didn’t think so either. Just let their destiny be theirs, like yours belongs to you entirely.

    6. fposte*

      Might also be worth remembering that the jobs the resentful people have were undoubtedly competitive as well, and if you’re a job thief so are they.

      But can you say how exactly they’re showing resentment? Because they really shouldn’t be. (How long have you been there, btw?)

      1. Guilt-ridden Job Thief*

        Ah but they’re locals. People here really like seeing well-educated locals stay in the region, so everyone is thrilled when they get a job. Someone actually came into our office to visit and, seeing one of my co-workers there during the day, exclaimed that she was so happy to see that she got the job. I was sitting right there and it was so awkward when it was explained that actually, she hadn’t, they’d hired externally.

        Their resentment really is not affecting our work so I can’t complain about it. It’s really just comments about how if another place were to hire, they’d just choose another person from [my home region], or how sad it is that employers in this area don’t value local graduates. I feel embarrassed when they say things like this in the lunch room. The husband of one of them was on local radio a little while ago and joked that his wife was a great [professional] and she needs a job and everyone at our workplace knows she’s the best. He of course meant “the best” not comparatively superior, but I’m still thinking about it so clearly it stung a bit. But they work well with me so it’s nothing the manager should address.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Am shaking my head. I can understand why you would feel a pang, but it’s theirs to sort out not yours.
          It sounds like you are in a rural area or an area that does not have large cities. I see a lot of that type of attitude around here. I would take it as normal talk for the area. In other words, the locals have a habit of discussing this and they reinforce the habit with each other.

          When I moved here the running joke was if the last ten generations of your family were not born here along with YOU, then you were clearly an outsider. Time has passed and there are more outsiders now. Matter of fact, the new comers are starting to change the old ways, it is a verrrry slow process and very painful for some.
          Suggestions:
          1) Look at the general mindset of the community. It is probably in keeping with other things you find out.
          2) Give it time. Do your best everyday. Treat everyone with the same level of respect. ASSUME they all know each other, even if you can’t figure out how. This means strictly limit any negative comments you may have. Doing this will help you so much, it’s unbelievable.
          3) Flex. Be prepared to learn things you did not know. I had a boss that could not get over the fact we leave our cars running to go into the store to grab a cuppa. I tried to explain to him that at certain temps you HAVE to leave the car running. He was a great boss, but he could not wrap his mind around this regional quirk. We went over this point several times, I think he remained unconvinced, but dropped the topic to be polite.
          In another example, my husband had a boss that came from NYC. He had no clue how the winters were up here. After my husband came to the rescue several times, he stopped telling my husband that he could not wear boots to work. Be flexible, let them show you little idiosyncrasies of the area.
          4)Which brings me to my next point, people love to talk about themselves and talk about their home towns. Get them to tell you stories. This is a win-win. You will learn about them and their background and they will be more apt to think warmly of you. Once you have a couple hundred stories under your belt (lol), you will feel more acclimated, too.

          1. Guilt-ridden Job Thief*

            ASSUME they all know each other, even if you can’t figure out how.

            That is SO true. You’ve nailed this place! Unfortunately, I think the first dozen times I said “You know that person?? Everyone here knows everyone!” it came off as calling them a one-horse town and I’ve toned it down since. :)

        2. Engineer Girl*

          The kindest thing you can do is point out why you were hired (language skill). Let them know that you possessed a skill set they did not which gave you an edge over them. In the same breath, mention that you would like to work with them so that they can be better positioned next time.
          Clear goals and standards dispel rumors. Helping these two succeed should ease your guilt. You don’t have to do their improvement work for them but you could figure out where they need better training and maybe find some on-line classes from an accredited school. That goes a long way in building strong relationships.

    7. Granite*

      I don’t know if it would help to open up a little about how many jobs you applied before you got this one? Some sort of expression of gratitude about how fortunate you felt to have been hired when there are so many qualified candidates? Hard to know if that would make it worse or better. So really no advice, just empathy. Good luck.

      2. Temperance*

        I would recommend against this, because if those coworkers have been looking longer, they’re going to be even more angry.

        1. Guilt-ridden Job Thief*

          Indeed… They both graduated around 2010 and between the two of them, have worked at all the institutions that hire people with our degree in the area, but always part-time or on contract.

    8. KR*

      If they were qualified, you would have gotten the job. I know it’s hard to deal with the resentment, so keep reminding yourself that you worked hard for this and you deserve this.

    9. Master Bean Counter*

      Been there done that. Just work and do a stellar job. They will eventually get over it. Just be a genuinely nice person and show compassion to them. In other words be a decent human being and eventually something else will come up that they’ll all start griping about and you’ll be old news by then. ;)

    10. Adam*

      Proper guilt is deserved when it’s felt. You are blaming yourself for something that is not your fault one bit. You can be sympathetic to the struggles of your coworkers for sure and maybe they’re right to have a beef with management over their hiring practices. But even if that’s true not one iota of that is your fault. You needed a job, and the agency decided to hire someone outside the establishment for it. Your coworker’s anger at you is terribly misplaced.

      When I worked in retail for a brief period (though it was the longest year of my life) I asked for as many hours as they could give me. Some weeks I could have enough hours to almost be full time. Other weeks I could have less than ten. Management would often say that hours given out were contingent on how well the store was doing, so if we wanted more time we needed to get people to buy more stuff, which for a floor/stock person who makes minimum wage and zero commission is kind of a daunting edict.

      Literally one week after one of these pep talks about how there just weren’t hours to give out they hired two people at guaranteed 30 hours a week. I was not happy, but I didn’t take it out on the new people. They had no idea what they were getting into and I’m sure they needed the work just as much as I did. I just used it as further motivation to find a better job and get out of that sinking ship.

      Your coworkers may have legit things to be frustrated over, but it’s unfair for them to target you for that. Please let the unnecessary guilt go and if your coworkers continue to make it uncomfortable try talking to your manager about it.

      Good luck!

    11. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      but there were language requirements that neither met,/blockquote>

      Don’t feel guilty! If they did not have the requirements — especially something a language requirement for a government job, they in no way had the job locked up.

      I think this is a situation where you just have to keep being the awesome professional that you are and rise above it!

    12. Court*

      Don’t feel guilty! Their resentment is their own problem to deal with, not yours. You will NEVER be able to change this. What you can change is your reaction to their obvious attempts at guilt trips. If you didn’t get that job, some other outsider could have.

      It is not on you that they can’t be professionals in a professional workplace.

    13. Sadsack*

      Just keep in mind that there are reasons those coworkers did not get the job that have nothing to do with you? Probably easier said than done, but I am not sure what else you can do. If you weren’t hired, someone else would have been instead of them. Blaming you for their shortcomings certainly is unfair.

    14. StellsBells*

      I also want to point out that if your coworkers have been there for a significant amount of time, then they should have known that the language requirement would be needed for the full time position and planned accordingly. The fact that they just assumed that one of them was entitled to this job without discussing it with the manager long before the hiring process was needed is not your fault – that is 100% on them.

      Besides, even if one of them was hired into the role, the other would still be part time and no benefits – and still be resentful of the person who wasn’t even if they were local. It isn’t personal, and it isn’t something you should worry about.

      Don’t let them ruffle your feathers – and once you put it aside and let your enthusiasm for your job (and by extension your new community) then eventually the “locals” will get over it and start seeing you as one of their own.

      1. TootsNYC*

        they should have known that the language requirement would be needed for the full time position and planned accordingly.

        This is so incredibly true! Don’t lose sight of this. That complacency hurt them, and they deserved for it to.

        And, you haven’t taken anything AWAY from them, so it didn’t hurt them so much as BLOCK them.

        They still have a job.

        I wouldn’t say go out of your way to do this (I think you best bet is to just be oblivious and give them space to get over it), but if they DO say anything, you can do this:
        Be very encouraging and say, “Maybe you should start brushing up your Foreign Language–that will make you a really strong candidate if a position like this opens up again!”

    15. Observer*

      Please rename yourself. You are not a “thief”. You did NOT cheat anyone out of a job.

      Dealing with your coworkers is a different story. But, you will actually do much better if you drop the idea that you “cheated” anyone or did anything unethical. On the other hand some sympathy and empathy are in order. Not because they were cheated or mistreated, but because it IS a disappointment, even if they had been in denial. It sounds, though, like there might have been a bit of miscommunications there on the part of HR or their boss, so it makes the disappointment worse. Again, this is NOT your fault, and you should project that attitude.

      You need to believe and act on three things:
      1. You did nothing wrong, unethical or dishonest. No guilt warranted here.

      2. Being part time when you need a full time job stinks. So does not getting a job you thought you had a good chance at, and living in an economically depressed area where opportunities are few and far between.

      3. None of this is your fault or yours to fix. You can, and should sympathize, empathize and respect their issues. But do not, in any way shape of form accept any level of blame or validate resentment of you over it.

    16. Creag an Tuire*

      Situations like this are where I’d channel my Inner Bastard and think “they wouldn’t give up -their- well-paying job for -my- benefit, so I have no obligation to do the same for them”.

    17. HeyNonnyNonny*

      OK, I have some indirect experience from the side of your coworkers– so I think I understand some of why they might be feeling resentful.

      This is pretty common, especially with government jobs, which are very competitive (as you know!). I have seen a lot of people lose out on “their” jobs to an outsider– and unfortunately, sometimes this is due to bureaucracy, a convoluted hiring process, and point advantages given to certain groups. Since you earned this job because of your language requirement, those don’t really apply– but the requirements could have been very poorly communicated to these workers, or maybe they thought they met the requirements and didn’t, or they were told it didn’t matter.

      So I think that everyone’s advice is spot on– you shouldn’t feel guilty, of course! You wouldn’t have been offered the job if you didn’t deserve it, and no one’s finances are your responsibility. But understand that they aren’t mad at you, they’re mad at the system that they felt was unfair– it might help to remember that when you feel guilty or resented. You say they’re nice people, so just remember that this happens a lot, and people get over it all the time. Sorry it’s tarnishing an otherwise great opportunity, but this will pass!

      1. Guilt-ridden Job Thief*

        That’s very true, and it is why I feel guilty, because unless they weren’t doing a good job, and they were by all accounts, no one should be able to score higher than the person who was actually doing the job!

        1. Observer*

          But, that’s just it. You have no reason to feel guilty. You didn’t outscore them by doing something unethical.

          I tend to agree with you that you shouldn’t have been able to outscore them. But, it could be that although they were doing a good job, there were limits to what they could to because of the language requirement.

          I don’t know what you do, so I’ll stick to Teapots Inc. for my illustration. If Teapots Inc. puts someone into a CSR Supervisor role on a temporary basis, they may not worry if she doesn’t know Spanish, even though a significant percentage of customers and CSRs are Spanish speaking. But, no matter how good that Temp Supervisor is, they are going to keep looking till they find someone who speaks Spanish

          1. HeyNonnyNonny*

            Observer makes a great point– it’s possible that the job they were doing didn’t have all the requirements of the full time job you got! Or, again, maybe they got tangled up in the red tape of the application process. Or they didn’t answer the questionnaire as strongly as they could have. But you outscored them based on your strengths. So you can be sympathetic towards them that the system was bad or they were misled into thinking they’d get the job…but don’t be guilty that you made it through.

            Like I said, I’ve seen this sort of thing happen a lot, and to be honest, you don’t just ‘win’ the job by outscoring people! If an outsider outscores an internal candidate that they reallllly want, they have to fall in love with that outside candidate or they’ll just cast a wider net. So they certainly wanted you more than the coworkers, and it was more than just “Oh, Guilt-Ridden Job Thief got 5 more points, he automatically wins, nuts to them!”

        2. TootsNYC*

          “no one should be able to score higher than the person who was actually doing the job!”

          I disagree.

          What if they weren’t doing the job quite as well as needed? What if the absence of the language thing meant things were ticking along OK, but just OK. And what if there were many lost opportunities (“opportunity cost”) that couldn’t be capitalized on because theydidn’t have the language. Or the outside perspective.

          I have to tell you–I’m loathe to hire or promote someone who thinks that the higher-level job “should” be theirs, especially if they think anyone else would be “wrong” to “steal” it from them. I fear they will be too complacent and would not do the job well enough. That they wouldn’t bring the same energy, innovation, and fresh perspective.
          Someone who wants the promotion because they think they’re good enough, or because they want to get more authority/autonomy, because they have ideas of what they want to do? Totally I’d want them.

          But someone who feels entitled to that job? I don’t think they’re such a great person to promote, actually.

      2. Alice*

        I am, luckily, in a different position: I pipped an internal candidate at the last post, but I have no idea who it is. Everyone who could be the disappointed, local, internal candidate has been 100% helpful. So I have no advice, except to remind you that there are people who can get past similar disappointments… So while you’re being understanding, don’t overdo it. As every else has said, it’s not your fault and you stole nothing.

    18. INTP*

      Remind yourself of the good you’re doing the people you serve through unique attributes that you are able to bring to the position. For example, assuming the language requirement wasn’t totally pointless, because you are there, people are being served/having their needs considered/employed (it’s hard to say without knowing your job but I’m positive there’s something!) who otherwise wouldn’t due to a language barrier. Remember that the job having gone to your coworkers might have helped one coworker, but it would have also perpetuated inequality for all of the minority language speakers you can help directly or indirectly. Maybe your education or city experience have provided you with information or ideas that you can put into practice. Being in government, your job touches many people, and remember how many people are being helped by having someone very qualified in that position versus the few coworkers you feel bad about not having your job.

      1. Guilt-ridden Job Thief*

        Thanks, that’s a good point. I actually work in an internal client-facing job, and in principle I do believe that it’s really important to provide services in both official languages.

        1. TootsNYC*

          One thing that might help them get over it faster, or help them become realistic faster, is to make sure that the value you bring with that language skill is clear–both effective/powerful and visible.

    19. Anxa*

      Do they both have similar jobs? Are the positions predominantly part-time with only a few full-time options.

      If there is plenty of full-time work for current workers, but the department is hiring all part-timers to save money, that’s on the higher ups that are making these decisions.

      I’ve been in a position where a half job is better than no job, so even if those jobs were consolidated, someone would lose out. But now I’m stuck in part-time purgatory, and I almost wish they’d just fire me and give someone else a full-time job if it can’t be me.

      If you feel badly about it, that’s perfectly fine. But it wasn’t your decision not to promote or otherwise provide a living wage for those employees.

    20. KC*

      I was in a similar situation when i graduated in 2013. I had trouble finding perm jobs and worked in a few different temp jobs for about 2 years, with a little unemployment in between. I finally found a good perm job when the last temp job i was in hired me as a perm employee. You have absolutely nothing to feel bad about. Ignore the resentment and focus on doing the best job you can.

    21. DB*

      If your co-workers are genuinely nice people at one point or another they will get past this. By behaving apologetically you can inadvertently enable the resentment. Treat them as grown-ups, do your job well and don’t act embarrassed by something you have no control over. This more than anything will help them get beyond their resentment If you avoid feeding their victimization by the system mentality, they can learn to respect and support you.

      1. Guilt-ridden Job Thief*

        Thanks, that’s a good thing to remember. No one likes to be pitied and giving off that vibe would not help our relationship.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        If you can see that they are nice people, then on some level they do realize you are not at fault here. I would be more worried if they treated you crappy.

      4. TootsNYC*

        I agree.

        I think the absolute best think you can do for other people who are feeling inappropriate emotions (real, but not actually appropriate to the situation) is to act as though they DON’T feel that way.

        Give them room and time to get over, and give them deniability as well. It will help them save face.

        Blithely oblivious.

    22. Nobody*

      All the other comments have already covered the fact that you have no reason to feel guilty and you did nothing wrong, but unfortunately, you still have to deal with the resentment of your coworkers, no matter how misdirected it is. I’ve seen situations like this, where people are resentful of an outsider “stealing” a promotion they wanted, and the good news is that if the outsider proves herself, the resentment eventually subsides. The bad news is that people are extra critical of the outsider, so an outsider has to meet a higher standard to be accepted as deserving of the job.

      Also, avoid complaining about the job in any way, because that just rubs salt in the wounds of those who would have loved to have it (never mind that they would probably have the same complaints if they had gotten the job — they’ll just be thinking about how ungrateful you are).

      The fact that you are conscious of the situation probably helps, because it means that you are considerate about other people’s feelings, and they will probably come to sense that you have good intentions. Try not to take to take their resentment personally, even if they take it out on you, because they are really just resentful of the situation. I’m not saying you should put up with bullying or unprofessional behavior, but that doesn’t look like what’s happening. I think if you stick it out, do a good job, and have a good attitude, your coworkers will eventually come around.

    23. TootsNYC*

      There’s a great saying I’ve been running across lately:

      What other people think of you is none of your business.

      What other people feel is none of your business.

      If they don’t come right out and mention it, it’s not your business.

      also–you may be hypersensitive to this; it’s possible they aren’t as resentful as you think.

      “blithely ignorant”–that’s how you should act and feel.

  6. Anna No Mouse*

    I had a phone interview for a job yesterday that I am so thrilled about that I’m actually having trouble focusing today on my work. This is my first real interview for a non-profit and it fits my interests and most of my skills and experience. There are two things that I can see working against me: my lack of direct fundraising experience (through I do have some experience with grants) and not having previous involvement with this particular organization, which the last person to hold this position did.

    But the interview went really well, and now I’m just waiting to see if I get called in for an in-person interview with some or all of the board. The woman I’ve been in touch with has been great, and is sending me the groups multi-year strategic plan at my request so I can read more in depth about their plans for the future.

    Any advice on what to do when interviewing with a board hiring committee?

    1. Anna No Mouse*

      Update: I know have an in-person interview scheduled for three weeks from yesterday. Yippee!

    3. Intern Wrangler*

      Congratulations! Interviewing with a board hiring committee is not dissimilar from any committee interview. I would do some research on the board ahead of time–finding out who they are and what affiliations they have. Be prepared. If you are looking at fundraising, understand what type of funding they receive. Review their last couple of 990s–which are available through a free account on guidestar. (I hope I’m not telling you things you already know.) And prepare some questions for them, but know that you may not get to all of them because they may have limited time. Good luck!

      1. Anna No Mouse*

        This is great! Thank you!

        We discussed some funding issues on the phone interview, but I still have a lot of questions.

    4. Marina*

      Woohoo!! Congratulations! :) As far as a lack of direct fundraising experience, most of what’s needed is sheer chutzpah and willingness to make the ask. If you can convince your interviewer that you’re willing to put yourself out there and ask for money, you’re halfway there. And hey, it’s not asking for money for you, it’s asking for money for the great cause that you are very passionate about, so that helps. ;)

      1. Anna No Mouse*

        Thanks for the advice. Most of what I know about in terms of funding is on the grant side of things. I’m not sure if that’s their plan for getting funding, or if they’d prefer to go more of the fundraiser route, which is why I asked for the strategic plan. I’ve done event planning in the past, and think I could swing this into a fundraiser pretty easily by reaching out to some contacts I have for advice.

  7. Erin*

    For part of my job I help to coordinate events – client appreciation events, things like that.

    I hate it when I’m in negotiations with a restaurant or a venue for pricing, and then the event doesn’t happen or we go in another direction. Thanks for all the back and forth and answering all my questions, nooooow we’re not going with you.

    Any advice on how to navigate that, or is that just sort of part of the course of doing business?

    1. Cass*

      Maybe an e-mail thanking them for their time and letting them know you’ll keep them in mind for future events?

      1. KathyGeiss*

        This sounds like the best course of action. Combine it with the confidence that it’s just the course of business and not out of the ordinary for these vendors.

    2. some1*

      What Cass said. It’s kind of like rejecting an applicant: “We needed to go with a venue that better fit our budget/could accommodate more people/had Kosher options (or generic “better fit our needs for this event), but I sincerely appreciate all of your help while making this decision. I will keep you in mind for future events”

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Excellent wording. I just had to get quotes from some vendors that provide printing and email marketing services. I’m happy with the companies we picked, but I’m the type of person who always feels badly about rejecting people. I’m going to write something similar to what you said above.

    3. ACA*

      Ugh, I hate that. Last year I was in the process of booking a $$$ catering order for a graduation, did a tasting, set the menu, had basically done everything except signed the contract – and then we changed our venue and had to use the venue’s catering. I felt terrible.

    4. Over Development*

      I’m in agreement with Cass and polite note goes a long way.

      Depending on the venue/relationship, I will sometimes do this over the phone. I.e. Board member who is hosting an event in their home doesn’t tell us that they have a preferred caterer (despite us asking) until I have already reached out to our go-to folks.

    5. OwnedByTheCat*

      I hate saying no to vendors. Most of the time they are nice but sometimes they’re incredibly pushy! No advice, just a “me too” sentiment.

    6. justsomeone*

      I do this for my job too – just remember, it’s their job to answer your questions AND you’re not the first or the last person to do this. They’re pretty used to it. Events are a very fluid beast.

      When I have to tell a vendor we’re going in a different direction I always send a quick email saying “Thank you so much for your time. We really liked X or Y but for this event, we’ve decided to go in a different direction. I’ll keep you in mind for future events.”

    7. Event Planner*

      I’m an event planner and this happens literally ALL the time in our industry. The venue reps know that. I usually start conversations with venues by saying something non-committal like “I’m just assessing our options”, which can soften the blow a little when it comes to turning them down.

      Seriously though, this is standard operating procedure for venues though. They know they’re going to put together x number of proposals that will be rejected. Just be polite and tell them you’ll be in touch if anything that fits comes up and the relationship will still be there if you do need them.

    8. Sunflower*

      I used to be like this too. Just remember that not getting a deal/contract is a big part of their job. I usually just send an email saying ‘thanks for all your help and I’ll be in touch if any future events come up.’

      I usually start off the process by telling them that we’re just looking at options and nothing is set in stone yet.

    9. NDR*

      Don’t feel bad! Just let them know as soon and possible and thank them for their time. I used to work for a caterer, in sales, and it was awful when I couldn’t get a straight answer (or any answer) from a client who was holding a date. If you say no, that frees them up to pursue other business.

    10. KWB*

      Just seeing this late, but I used to book events for a venue, and people inquired and didn’t book all the time! Part of my job was talking people through the options, prices, menus, etc., and as long as the person I was dealing with was nice, it was fine–sometimes they had more people than we could accommodate, the menu was too pricey, the wedding got called off (yes), the menu didn’t have enough XYZ options–anyone who takes stuff like that personally is being unreasonable. Just say, “Thanks for all the back and forth and answering all my questions, nooooow we’re not going with you.” Or something with fewer O’s. :) It really is just part of that business.

  8. Hangry at a meeting*

    I know better than to ask “is this legal?” so I’m venting and asking “isn’t this sh*tty?”
    At my new job, I’m salaried AND I get overtime (the holy grail!). I typically get about 2 hours of OT each week; it’s not money that makes or breaks my budget, but it’s nice to have a little extra to save.
    We have a mandatory meeting today that is scheduled for an hour (and will probably run closer to 2) and just got an all staff email saying there’s no number to bill your time, this is your lunch.
    Just… annoyed.
    If it’s mandatory, shouldn’t we be paid? (or at the very least SERVED LUNCH? We have to have these meetings at a hall offsite so everyone can fit, there’s no way it’s BYO-Lunch)

    1. Fabulous*

      I’d assume catering would be provided if it’s around lunchtime. They’re crazy if it’s not.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I’m pretty sure that if it’s required, it needs to be considered work time. (I don’t know how it would be for salaried staff, but they definitely would have to pay any hourly staff for that time.)

        1. Stranger than fiction*

          That’s what I always thought. And, secondary question: If that’s the case, when is your actual break?

    2. KR*

      I figured out a while ago that the best way to get my employees to enjoy and attend meetings was to bribe them with pizza. Maybe you could put a bug in your manager’s ear.

    3. Terra*

      If you’re non-exempt then this might actually be illegal depending on where you work. The rule for exempt is that if you’re required to be there then generally they have to pay you for it. Telling people to count it as lunch, especially if they aren’t actually serving lunch and it’s considered mandatory, is at the very least incredibly shady.

      1. Natalie*

        And if you are in a state that requires non-exempt staff to get a lunch break, this probably doesn’t count.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If you’re non-exempt, it has to be paid time because it’s mandatory. If you’re exempt, they can’t mess with your salary for that period anyway so it’s probably moot.

    5. Ama*

      If they aren’t serving lunch and making you count the meeting as your lunch break, that’s pretty crappy.

      I actually get kind of resentful even at lunch time meetings that include lunch because I really need that mental break during the day.

    6. Oryx*

      Yes, if it’s a mandatory meeting, I’d consider that work.

      But, if you’re salaried, you’re still going to be paid for your time, right? This would really only have an effect if you’re hourly and they force you to clock out and then make you attend (which would then be illegal).

      1. TootsNYC*

        is the “charge your time to” a matter of internal billing, or of your own individual time card?

    7. fposte*

      I can’t tell if you’re exempt or not. If you’re exempt, you are being paid for that time–that’s your salary. If you’re non-exempt, they’re doing it wrong and have to pay you.

    8. Hangry at a meeting*

      To clear it up – I am an exempt salaried employee who also gets overtime. So nothing illegal, just annoying.

      1. Newbie*

        As an exempt salaried employee and for the sake of sanity, I try to keep in mind the positives of this classification when something mandatory comes up. There may be occasional mandatory events, but I’m able to take occasional long lunches or leave earlier than usual when the work is caught up.

        I’m in no means an expert, but are you sure you’re exempt? It’s possible to be both salaried and non-exempt, which would require payment of overtime. In that case, time spent at a mandatory meeting would count toward the calculation of overtime that week. My understanding of exempt is that you’re exempt from overtime.

      2. NJ Anon*

        It is highly unusual to be exempt and get overtime. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t complain. Just go to lunch after the meeting if they don’t feed you. I am exempt, get no overtime but go to lunch whenever I want to.

        1. Jen*

          It’s unusual but it happens. My husband is a design engineer for a firm. He is salaried and no exempt but his salary is based in a 45 hour workweek.

          Because his work is 100% billable to clients, he gets overtime (straight time, not time and a half) for any work over 45 hours assuming he renains 90% billable for the week. So if client A wants work done this week but he’s got to pull a 60 hour week to do it, he gets to bill for it.

          Pretty nice!

    9. Elle*

      I think it will depend on if you are considered exempt or non-exempt. If you’re exempt, they would not have to pay you for the mandatory lunch meeting. If you’re non-exempt, they would.

    10. Master Bean Counter*

      I believe that people who schedule meetings or parties over what would normally be eating hours and don’t provide sufficient amounts of food will live their afterlives in a state of perpetually hungry purgatory.

      2. Hlyssande*

        Absolutely, yes.

        People like that are the reason I have a daily recurring meeting in my calendar for lunch.

    11. Kelly White*

      Yes- that’s sucky!!

      (I think you have to suck it up and do it, but I wanted you to feel validated!)

        1. catsAreCool*

          Where I work, if they expect you to work through lunch for a meeting, they provide lunch and sometimes even ask you what kind of sandwich you want. Seems like a better way to have people invested in the meeting.

    12. New Math*

      You are exempt and get overtime whenever it can be billed… sounds like you work in a great place! The deal with exempt is that sometimes you do have to put in more than 40 hours without extra pay, so I would say that, no this isn’t sh*itty from a financial perspective. But they should be paying attention to the fact that they will be holding a meeting with hungry people!

      1. Hangry at a meeting*

        I see your financial point – if the whole office is short one billable hour, they’re loosing 600 hours of work – and if we all put it in as OT, they’re paying and extra 600 hours of salary for no work.
        I’m crossing my fingers for food at this thing….

        1. afiendishthingy*

          Our mandatory monthly nonbillable meeting used to be held from 11 – 1, with no free lunch. What. the. eff.

    13. hermit crab*

      I would be annoyed too. I’m salaried but we work on a billable hours model where all your hours have to be accounted for, so it definitely feels like you’re not getting paid for those “voluntary mandatory” unbillable events. We often get food provided in lieu of a billing code, which people are generally fine with, but there would be a LOT of grumbling if we got neither.

    14. Engineer Girl*

      I’ve seen this plenty. A meeting comes out of overhead so there is no charge number. You only get OT if it is authorized for a project.
      If this only happens occasionally then you probably should suck it up. It is “normal” for salary exempt. And you still get OT most of the time.
      Not the hill to die on

    15. afiendishthingy*

      I’m salaried but have billable hours expectations -it’s only 55%, but there are strict insurance codes regarding what constitutes a billable activity for my role. If you go to a committee meeting or continuing education workshop, that time gets “deducted from productivity” – e.g., if I’m in a committee meeting for 3 hours on Tuesday I’m only responsible for billing 55% of 5 hours that day. However, supervisors have been saying no to a lot of requests to deduct other things lately – things like participating in hiring process for a junior team member and attending a required team meeting, even though the rest of the department doesn’t have an equivalent meeting. These things have been deducted in the past and we’ve not been given an answer for why they aren’t anymore.

      In conclusion – Yes. It is annoying. It’s not the end of the world, it’s not a toxic workplace, but you have my blessing to be annoyed. :)

  9. Folklorist*

    Alison, have you ever considered doing a podcast call-in version of the blog? Not gonna lie; I would kind of love to hear you tell people that their manager sucks and will never change. Or just say “what the hell?!” I’m thinking like the Savage Lovecast, but with slightly less BDSM (unless it happens in the office. Quack.)

    Maybe I just want AAM soundbites in my life.

    1. some1*

      Oh, that reminds me! Savage Love recently answered a letter from someone who’s coworker was vetting sugar daddies by having them take a tour of the spa where they were working, and I was thinking it’s too bad Alison couldn’t have been the guest columnist for that one

      2. Granite*

        Even if it wasn’t a regular thing, doing a couple one offs on popular topics would be awesome.

        1. Elizabeth Plan*

          A hockey blog I follow does that – once a the begging of the season, once around the mid point (trade deadline) and once per round of the play offs and once the season is over. Its a nice treat when the pop up in my podcast feed.

      5. BRR*

        I think this would be great for those letters where you emphasize tone in your answer (like the time you did the recording). Also I want to hear you say “your manager sucks and isn’t going to change.”

      7. Allison Mary*

        Please, please do!! I would listen to every single episode!

        Also, you should reach out to Dan Savage and tell him that his listeners really want you to be a guest on his show, for any work-related crossover type questions that he gets (Savage Love is the only other podcast I listen to religiously).

      9. Marina*

        OMG PLEASE. See commute thread above–this would make two hours of my life every day so. much. better.

      10. beachlover*

        Please do. Podcasts keep me sane on my commute home, and when I am working on spreadsheets at work!

    3. Elle*

      That would be awesome! I’ve never listened to a podcast in my life (I know, I know) but I just might be motivated to listen to yours!

    4. Gandalf the Nude*

      I would love to see (hear?) this with guess voice over for the LWs and potentially as roleplay/practice conversations. And more interviews! It’s totally different hearing someone talk about their job than reading it.

        1. Bibliovore*

          I am a enthusiastic yes to a podcast. Perhaps you can do one as part of the NPR Marketplace franchise? Also Krista Tippet who does On Being (my favorite podcast) is also a producer. She would be able to point you in the right direction.

    6. Turtle Candle*

      I would love so much a podcast so that I could have an audio version of my favorite of Alison’s conclusions: “Your boss is a loon.”

        1. Bibliovore*

          Pocast.

          Start with In the News… working conditions, new employment laws, books to read
          five questions. with Alison answers
          then a phone questions recorded like the car guys so that there can be back and forth.
          Then Is It Legal?
          time to quit- could be worst boss, worst working environment. B eating cracks moment.
          End with positive- letters from readers who have succeeded due to good advice- contract negotiations job interviews, cover letters.

  10. Mockingjay*

    Best / Worst of the Week?

    Best: Helped my colleagues with some contract stuff. It was just a little thing, but they were swamped with other work and couldn’t get it finished. My boss found out about it and gave me a really nice thank you.

    Worst: My account is experiencing a random Windows credentials problem so I can’t access our databases and SharePoint. Three of the IT staff are working full-time on it – they are completely baffled. I am emailing files back and forth, old school!

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Best: Getting birthday bombed by my new coworkers. I don’t even know how they knew..I’ve only been here a month.
      Worst: Having to work late because there’s a culture of waiting until the last minute in this place to get things done. I will be working on that.

    2. Dawn*

      Best: IT’S FRIDAY. Seriously the most-looked forward to Friday I’ve had in a while.

      Worst: Found out that the company owners are really really really adverse to firing people, even if they’re dead weight. Going to have to come up with ways to change that mindset.

    3. Not me*

      Best: New job! It starts next week. I really like my current position, but the change is exciting, too.

      Worst: Am bad at cooking things that I’ll microwave for lunch at work.

      1. De Minimis*

        Worst—our temp is leaving and I was having her deal with our student workers who have just started. Now I’ll have to try and train them even though I’m not really too familiar with most of what they’re doing.

        Annoyed in general because my boss insisted we hire them and he wanted so many hours of work from them, but he wants to just leave everything to me as far as training them and finding things for them to do. In my opinion, one student who works maybe 8-10 hours a week would be enough, but he’s the boss…

        And one is already being flaky as far as not showing up….which has made a problem because when we have a couple of days with no students we end up having to do the tasks that we would have assigned to them, and so when they do show up we struggle to find things for them to do.

        Oh well, we shall see…

          1. De Minimis*

            Student worker, they just started, and I don’t know if we really have a procedure in place for firing during the semester. I would guess we would just not have them back next term.

            Had a hard time filling these positions, it’s late in the semester already, so I will over look it for now.

            1. Anxa*

              Is it FWS? Because I could imagine it being hard to fire for that. Are they classified differently than other part-time staff.

              I guess I thought you meant they were not showing up to scheduled shifts or something egregious.

              1. De Minimis*

                It’s sort of like work study but not exactly the same. The students are technically university employees but the pay comes 100% from us [a non-profit affiliate, but we are independent from the university.] I think it would be difficult to fire, but also it would not be in line with what I’ve seen here culturally as far as the student workers…I think it would be really frowned upon.

                There is a real miscommunication with this student, I think possibly because of a slight language barrier. This is literally their first week of work, and I think they misunderstand about the scheduling. They actually did no-show the other day.

                I’ve had a really hard time finding students–the best two candidates I interviewed first, one turned us down for a different job and the other just had no availability during our operating hours. The resumes were pretty weak, and all I really want is someone who has done some amount of office work [even just for a couple of months] and/or is studying business/finance.

                1. Anxa*

                  Sounds like a complicated system.

                  I underestimated the scheduling issue. I guess when you’re only looking for a few students, that’s a much bigger issue. I’ve always worked on larger staffs, so I’d overlooked that.

        2. MT*

          Some tactics we’ve found successful with flaky student workers:

          1. This is probably obvious, but expectations! A brief document of attendance policies that address what is expected in terms of calling out, showing up late, getting coverage, communicating with teammates, etc. including laying out the consequences of not following these policies
          2. Specific goals and consequences: “Anybody who does not do X will not get more hours until it is completed”; “If you do not do X by [Date] you will not get any hours the following week”; “If you repeat [problem] another time we will have to discuss whether you want to continue working with us” etc.

          In our situation, at least, “hours” are the Holy Grail of student incentive. Nobody wants to lose an entire week of hours. This has cut down on students who appear when they want to and flake out when they don’t.

          1. De Minimis*

            It bothers me because the other departments all have great student employees who have been there for their entire college career. I feel like I dropped the ball on hiring.

          2. TootsNYC*

            Yea, the hours thing–I wondered if you can say: “this is when you need to come, because this is when the work is. If you don’t show up and it gets done by someone else, we won’t be able to pay you, because we’ll send you home.”

    4. super anon*

      Best: I talked to my bosses for the first time in weeks and got some clarity on issues I’d been struggling with.

      Worst: I offered a job to someone and they turned it down. I didn’t realize the sting of rejection swings both ways – but I might just feel that way because I have to repost the job and do another round of interviews.

    5. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      My boss told me I have a “high business IQ” – whatever that means, it was intended as a compliment. He also told me I’m the “poster child for continual improvement.”

      Worst: I work with an incredibly wordy/rambling person like the OP who wrote in yesterday about how to be more succinct. It’s been getting worse and worse.

    6. nofelix*

      Worst: Chickens have come home to roost on some decisions my boss made and a major project I’m working on is in jeopardy.

      Best: Now I have more free time…

    7. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Best: I’m on a team! This is my first “team” project, which are usually high-profile and great for people’s careers around here. I’m weirdly excited!

      Worst: One of the team members is a total project-Gollum. Ugh.

    8. MrsL*

      Best: That a project actually worked out just fine, despite a lot of hiccups along the way that were close to driving me crazy. I was like duck swimming frantically upstreams. I think that situations like this somehow makes me grow in my role as a project manager. Yes!

      Worst: When the details matter and I did not get them right. Situation: Decisions made after conferring with client (that is very particular about details) gets changed last minute by my boss, and client then totally agrees with my boss. Somehow made me feel like all my efforts of being on top of things to make the client happy (highest priority in this particular project), went down the drain then and there.

    9. AFT123*

      Best: We had a work kick-off at my new job and I am finally starting to feel a little bit of the “drinking the kool-aid” feeling, which I hope to feel more and more as I invest more time here.

      Also best, my spouse is coming home tomorrow after being gone for 10 days, yippee!!

      Worst: I still have next to nothing to do at my new job and there is no end in sight and I’m bored out of my gourd and my previous company is trying to woo me back into a promoted position and it’s tempting even though I know it’s a mess over there but at least I’d have work to do and feel like I’m providing value… whew. Sorry for the run-on sentence.

    10. ThatGirl*

      Best: I had my annual review, it was super awesome, my boss loves me, and she advocated for a higher raise than the general pool so I got 3% instead of 2.5%! (The money itself isn’t super impressive, but it feels really good to be appreciated.)

      Worst: My work’s been pretty good but my husband’s job is increasingly frustrating thanks to really crappy C-Level management.

    11. motherofdragons*

      Best: Landed a new job that starts in a few weeks, with a company I love and a nice pay bump to boot!

      Worst: Knowing that I’m leaving soon is only serving to highlight the incompetence of my current coworkers and managers, rather than alleviate it!

    12. F.*

      Worst: I’ve finally reached BECcon level 2 with my employer. It finally hit me yesterday during a phone call where I was told that the company owner will again be taking a very active role in recruiting (after all, who needs HR?) and interviewing for staff he doesn’t even supervise. He did that last year, blew smoke up new employees’ skirts about promotions and raises, and created a number of disgruntled (now ex-) employees, not to mention paying the new hires more than the veterans and generally pissing off everybody. I had a sudden moment of clarity when I realized that Nothing. Here. Will. EVER. Change. and I have to Get. Out.
      Next Worst: Found a job I wanted to apply for, but on further research discovered that their benefits are even worse than ours (nothing for 120 days, only 7 days of PTO for the first 5 years, only 5 paid holidays, crappy health insurance). It would also be a 20-25% pay cut. Nope. Not much out there for HR with less than two years experience in HR, and I don’t want to go back to being an Admin.
      Very Worst: I am supposed to be writing recruiting advertisements for internet job boards and my anxiety is so far up there that I can’t even think straight.
      Best: It’s finally Friday. (I’m too damn old for this!)

    13. Bowserkitty*

      Best: My week has been low-key, work wise.

      Worst: The secretaries who work around me have all had a horrible week for reasons I’m not sure of, just general clinic/doctor madness I think. (T_T) I have offered cheesecake, because what else do you do when someone’s unhappy?

      I was able to provide a listening ear at the very least.

    14. Laura*

      Best: Applied for a graduate program that directly relates to my field, with my manager’s reference and blessing! (I work at a university so tuition is almost nothing for me!)

      Worst: I was in the office all week. Typically I get to travel around the metro area, going to schools/doing presentations/having meetings. So this week has been pretty dull for me.

    15. Hermione*

      BEST: I got a new job!

      Worst: Having to awkwardly say “Oh thanks, I’ll miss you, too!” when, nope.

      1. Minion*

        How about:
        Them: We’re really going to miss you!
        You: Aw, that’s sweet of you to say. Welp…see ya!!!

        Or maybe just point your wand and say Avada Kedavra. Done.

        1. Hermione*

          Whoa, you went from normal to Death Eater in .02 seconds! Normally just stunning them would be more than adequate, though that’s still not considered a “polite” way to end a conversation. For the more egregious colleagues, I’m quite fond of a little “Avis/Oppungo!” action.

          Haha, thanks for congrats!

        2. Doriana Gray*

          Them: We’re really going to miss you!
          You: Aw, that’s sweet of you to say. Welp…see ya!!!

          I used that exact phrasing when I left my old department and became a paralegal in another department at the law firm where I used to work (wow, that was a mouthful). The people I actually liked took me to lunch to celebrate my new job.

      3. afiendishthingy*

        “Thanks, it’s going to be a big change!”

        “Aw, thanks – I’m excited about this job though!”

        “Well, obviously. I AM pretty awesome.”

        “Aw, maybe we’ll run into each other some time!” (Maybe you will. It’s a small world. Doesn’t have to mean you WANT to.)

    16. NylaW*

      Best: I made it through the week and it’s Friday.

      Worst: Literally everything else. *sigh* I hate big projects with tight immovable deadlines.

    17. Jules the First*

      Best: we found out (still off the record) that we’re down to the final four (originally 15!) on a £5billion project that is a big stretch for us technically but could fund a huge expansion of our business and is a super exciting really high profile project…and yours truly wrote the pitch!!!

      Worst: my Chinese assistant resigned because her husband has been transferred back to Shanghai and I probably won’t get budget to replace her FTE.

    18. Minion*

      Best: Our open enrollment is today, so I get to spend a few hours out of the office, not staring at numbers on a computer screen.
      Worst: Our open enrollment is today so the hours I’m spending out of the office will be spent out in the sanctuary (our office is located in a 100 year old church that was donated to us by the church when they built a new one, so we’re using the sanctuary area for our meeting today) on hard, wooden pews and my butt is gonna be numb after about 30 minutes of that.

    19. justsomeone*

      Worst: got in an argument with an insensitive jerk of a coworker while I was getting coffee, right before a phone call from a recruiter telling me that while the team loved me, they were going with another candidate. So you know, tears at my desk for a few minutes.

      Best: getting an email about scheduling a phone interview next week.

    20. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Best: Coworkers and mini state-based tax refund arrived via direct deposit. Also, telecommuting

      Worst: (Or middle/best/meh?) Mom and I aren’t on speaking terms since the whole crazy/my dad trying to get me to apologize for her misdeeds and I refused to. We call each other once a week. On Fridays.

      I really, really, really hate Fridays.

      Um, also, waiting on other stuff (see later post).

    21. afiendishthingy*

      Best: We’ve moved at least a step closer to finally being done with the Client From Hell – she’s appealing our decision to terminate state-funded services, but we’ve now been told by the state that we do not have to continue services between our stated March 30 discharge date and the appeal hearing (date tbd). Moreover the new-ish AVP for our department is being awesomely supportive and has announced he is taking us “somewhere good” for lunch after the hearing.

      Worst: Had to call Child Protective Services with concerns of neglect for another client. It always feels shitty to do it, but it feels shittier not to.

    22. Van Wilder*

      Best: Got bagels twice this week for people’s birthdays. (This might be slightly more important to me because I’m pregnant but they were seriously good bagels.)

      Worst: Had to skip team St. Patrick’s Day lunch w/ the rest of the group yesterday because my project supervisor was leaving early to go to Miami and she wanted everything in perfect shape. I get where she’s coming from but it’s not my fault she’s going on vacation in busy season, you know?

    23. Fawnling*

      IT Person here –

      I had this issue recently. I had to remove credentials from “Manage Windows Credentials”, manually add them back in, and run a /gpupdate in elevated CMD.

      Hope that helps.

    24. NJ Anon*

      Best: Hired a temp who is working out fabulously!
      Worst: Employee went out on disability because she has cancer and is not doing well.

    25. Elizabeth West*

      WORST: Have big meetings next week; not sure if I’ll have any more information/progress after those than I do now. It seems like we’re very disorganized right now and I’m doing disconnected tasks without knowing where they fit in. I think it will all smooth out in time, but I wish that time was now!

      BEST: It’s Friday and I thought it would never freaking get here. Plus, it’s payday. I can’t afford it but I’m going to buy myself something small as a treat this weekend. Maybe just a flea-market run. :)

    26. No Longer Just a Lurker*

      Best: I am done with the monthly sales and use tax filings
      Worst: On to even more mind numbing activities. Am I the only accountant in the world who longs for month end by week 3?

    27. EddieSherbert*

      Best: Earlier this week had my first project review where NO revisions where suggested! Whoo hoo! It finally happened :)

      Worst: Today I was told to completely change the topic for a document going out to our retailers that I had already written (it’s going out late next week, but I anticipated next week being VERY hectic and tried to complete this now to clear up space for everything else).

    28. Kelley*

      Best: Steps forward on a big project I’m handling. 59% complete and counting.
      Worst: Our office and presumably our entire agency is having major IT issues. Everything is web-based or on a shared server so when our connections go down, we can literally do nothing. At least 10% of my week was spent unable to work or relogging in to an application.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Oh man, there was a while when it seemed like our network drives went down weekly. So frustrating.

    29. Lizabeth*

      Worst: the office squawker went from zero to 130 mph from a simple question from my boss. Major drama and nastiness for no reason. I put in a few words at the end to back up the boss.
      Best: now said office squawker is leaving me strictly alone unless it’s about work instead of being my BFF which is all I’ve ever wanted from the start. Hopefully it will last but more likely only two weeks before she’s desperate for attention.

    31. Lindsay J*

      Best: This coming Tuesday will be 3 months at this job. I’m feeling good about myself, am going to pass probation (no formal review, but you can be more easily be fired during the first three months), and all my benefits kick in. I made a dentist appointment where all I should be paying is a $5 copay for next Thursday.) Am now in the “use all the healthcare phase” since I’ve been putting things off for a couple years while I was broke and without insurance.

      Also, I’ve got a few fun weekend trips coming up. Going to St. Louis at the beginning of April, Toronto at the beginning of May, and a train trip from Denver to ? (somewhere on the west coast I think) on Memorial Day weekend. I’m not grounded anymore. :)

      Negatives: My boyfriend has not been around at all recently. Last week he was at a conference in New Orleans (and wound up in the hospital one of the days due to uh, overindulging), this week he was at his company’s headquarters in Arizona, next week he has another business trip somewhere else. Between that and him volunteering for a play that was in tech week two weeks ago, then had performances the two weekends he was home I feel like I haven’t seen him in forever.

      Also, my car got rear-ended. I’m fine, my car is fine. It was just unpleasant and made my back feel crappy.

    32. overeducated*

      Best: two interviews for jobs in my region that I’d be happy to take are in the rear-view mirror. I had a lot of anxiety about one of the interviews for reasons I won’t get into, and put many many hours of prep toward a presentation for the other, so it’s really good to be DONE with those.

      Worst: just…working at my two part time jobs, commuting, spending my free time on applications, and fear that I’m going to be rejected for these two jobs and have to keep on keeping on in this routine I’m just so very done with. I’m feeling hopeless and not liking my other options.

    33. Merry and Bright*

      Best: I got a great job offer. It is with the same UK government agency but with a new unit and it is also a promotion. I start after Easter.

      Second best: my new manager bought me cake this afternoon.

      Worst: Noisy Annoying Nosey Coworker got even worse. But our paths shouldn’t cross after the long weekend.

    34. Witty Nickname*

      Best: We are in the midst of annual reviews right now. My former boss did my review with me last Friday, since she was my boss all of last year, and I got the highest score possible – 5 out of 5. I’ve only ever known one other person in my company to get that score. My raise wasn’t very good (lower than last year, but higher than other orgs within my company), but then on Monday my new boss gave me an additional 13%, which brings me right up to the bottom of the market for my position (my old boss advocated for me, and my new boss agreed that I needed to be brought up to market, but they weren’t able to get it finalized before my review). And the new salary went into effect a whole pay period early.

      Worst: Just some bad timing on opportunities that have come up and decisions that I have to make about the direction I want my career to take, but won’t be able to really get the info I need to make an informed decision by the time I need to decide. I hate proceeding based on assumptions.

    35. Tammy*

      Best: I completed a work-related goal that’s been months in the making and will really make things better for my team members, and I got great feedback from my leadership team.

      Worst: My best friend is moving to take a new position two states away, and although I’m super happy for and proud of her, I’m really going to miss her.

    36. Jennifer*

      Don’t really have a worst, YAY, this week. I just came out of doing a demo for the team I want to get transferred to and they loved it, so yay there!

    37. GreenTeaPot*

      Best: Wrapped up a project with an almost-clean desk. Phase Two is postponed until late spring. Plus, had a couple of great workouts.

      Worst: Learned that my contact at an organization I work with changed jobs without much fanfare; it came as a shock and disappointment.

    38. OfficePrincess*

      Best: I came up with an idea for developing my team and encouraging engagement that my boss LOVED and it went over really well in the first shift meeting I had. I asked the team to brainstorm what the ideal would be in their position and then sent out an anonymous survey on how well they thought the team matches that ideal and what they would like to see change. (And it’s truly anonymous. I tested it a few times to make sure I had the settings right. I can’t see individual responses or even who completed it.)

      Worst: It went over like a lead balloon when I took it to the other shifts. I had one half-hearted participant, a couple who were entirely noncommittal, and one who was downright rude during the meeting and then proceeded to forcibly push back on the survey. I’ve never seen anyone so opposed to being asked for their opinion.

      This also came on top of getting some personal news that left me pretty emotional so I’m just a wreck. I’ve really been pushing myself to grow in this role, since it’s the first time I’ve had any management or supervisory responsibilities, so it’s hard when I think I’ve gotten somewhere and feel proud of myself just to have it utterly fail.

    39. Catherine*

      Best: It’s Friday and I leave work in half an hour.
      Worst: I’m also a full time grad student so my weekends kind of suck.

    40. Perse's Mom*

      Best: Day long company party wasn’t as horrible as I was expecting. I actually had quite a lot of fun and got lots of praise during our group activity session (I am not an Ideas Person, but I had some that day)! Also, one of the company execs had heard about me somehow (it makes me SO very anxious to know that people are talking about me, even if they’re saying good things) and when he overheard my name while walking past our session, he stopped and turned around to formally introduce himself.

      Worst: Second year in a row, nominated for but did not win departmental MVP. :(

    41. L*

      Worst: All the tedious minutae that have me questioning if this job is meant for me.
      Best: The best “kudos” email ever from a pretty darn higher-up, cc’d to other director type people: “Thanks! This makes me happier than a pig in s***!!! Thanks again and have a great weekend!” I told my boss I wanted that on my review verbatim.

    42. Doriana Gray*

      Best: My new manager told me in my pseudo-review Thursday that I’m killing my new job and he said, “If I could hire ten of you I would.” He said I’m an extremely hard worker, and it’s being noticed by everyone in our division, including our VP. He also said that in the event that we shake up the teams and reporting structure now that we’re bringing on new people from one of our competitors, he’ll fight to keep me on his team because we work well together and I’m one of the few people in the division whose decisions/recommendations make complete sense to him.

      Worst: My friends in this division who thought they were going to get large raises and/or promotions didn’t get them. They were told that with the addition of the new hires starting in the next few weeks, there wasn’t enough money in the budget. We’re supposed to be adding up to 30 new people this year, so now I’m concerned that when I’m at the point where I’ll want to move up, I’ll have to move out to do it because they won’t cough up the cash. What makes this all so awful is, they’re the one division in the company that was handing out promotions and raises like skittles the past three years. I didn’t even get to reap the benefits! Lol.

  11. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

    Going through some troubles in my home life when I remember, hey, my employer provides me with an EAP that can possibly help me, use your benefits, Xan!

    Unfortunately, they don’t do a good job providing information on how to use said EAP. The info page on the HR employee site just links to a PDF that details what I already mostly knew, but doesn’t give a website or a phone number or a contact person… so I’m currently Googling the name of the company it’s offered through- I found them but can’t locate the information for people who are currently clients, it’s all designed to sell themselves to businesses that aren’t currently using them. I suspect there’s a different site?

    I will probably have to call HR for more information but between coworkers and patrons that will have to wait because “yo, I’m trying to get counselling” isn’t really a conversation I want overheard. Of course they do need to know that if they want us to use this service, they need to give us an appropriate amount of information.

    1. KathyGeiss*

      Ugh. I commiserate. I remember trying to navigate EAPs a few years back and it was unnecessarily difficult and our employer did provide contact information.

      It makes me doubly angry when the company does “health challenges” that include things like “protect your mental health by exercising and eating right.” Ummm. If you legit cared about my mental health you would make the EAP easier and better.

      Keep fighting through it and good luck!

    2. Terra*

      If you don’t want people to overhear you talking about counseling you can absolutely call and just frame it as “hey, I can’t find out how to contact the EAP.” EAPs do (or are supposed to do) a lot more than just counseling, for all HR needs to know you’re asking them for a gym recommendation.

    3. Elle*

      That’s nuts. I’ve got posters up all over the place with the 800 number on it for ours. Plus, they send out frequent e-mail blasts on a variety of topics, and their contact information is contained in those as well. It should be easy for people to find, they shouldn’t have to ask HR for it. I used ours twice last year, and they were a huge help. I hope you’re able to navigate your way to a phone number at least!!

    4. Chalupa Batman*

      Much sympathy. I had to go to an HR person with a reputation for being a wildcard for EAP information at my last job. I wanted to use the EAP largely because I was so miserable there, but I didn’t ask for help for a long time because I didn’t want to have to tell a coworker (and definitely not this coworker) that I needed it. I was so delighted when I saw that NewJob posts all of the EAP info on an easy to find benefits site, no human interaction needed. Why is this not more common??

    6. Ife*

      Can you email HR about it, or just grab an empty conference room for a few minutes to call them? Hope everything works out for you.

  12. Fabulous*

    Why does it take so long for hiring managers to get back to you after an interview!?! I had a second interview two weeks ago, and at that time he said he’d be in touch before the end of LAST WEEK. I emailed him on Monday to see if their decision was still on schedule, and still no response. Arrrg, frustrations!!! At this point I’m assuming I didn’t get it and need to move on…

    1. Kelly L.*

      Usually irrelevant stuff on their end. Somebody important’s sick/on vacation and everything is piled up on their desk, some random emergency project came up and they’re laser focused on that, etc.

    2. fposte*

      Because they have to check references, who take days to call back, and then meet with the rest of the committee, who are a pain to schedule.

      I think moving on is always a good plan, but two weeks isn’t unusual.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        And then they’re ready to make an offer but HR says they absolutely can’t until X paperwork is done and by the way only Wakeen can do it and he’s out until next Tuesday.

        I just got a job offer after no contact for two weeks after a second interview.

      2. Fabulous*

        I wouldn’t think twice about two weeks, except for the fact that he said they’d know by last Friday.

        Oddly enough, they didn’t even request references from me. I’m finding this to be a trend in my recent job search. In the interviews where I’ve come prepared with them, the hiring manager has just given me a weird look like, “Why are you giving this to me? Um, ok…” This has been the 4th or 5th interview I’ve been on where references weren’t requested.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          I never give people my references until they ask me for them. Which tends to happen pretty late stage. The job I just got I did two interviews and then they asked for my references via email.

          This job I was told they’d get back to me “early next week” two weeks ago and I heard back from them this week. When I was helping hire people we were never able to stick to our schedules either. We always PLANNED to get back to people pretty fast but something always went funny.

          So basically keep applying to things but live in hope?

        2. ExceptionToTheRule*

          Odds are best that someone got sick or had a project dropped on their plate at the last minute. When I miss a deadline like that, that’s usually the reason.

    3. Stranger than fiction*

      I’m so sorry, it is indeed very frustrating. Truth is, it seems the process is getting longer at a lot of places. I was literally just talking to my manager about this the other day, because she’s interviewing to bring another person on right now. I told her how impressed I was that they keep the candidates informed of where they are in the decision making and let them know right away if they didn’t get the job (hey, one thing we do right here!). And I told her how, after I got the job here, a month later I finally heard back from another place I had interviewed, and six weeks after I started here, I heard from yet another place. I just wanted to say “Really?! Radio silence for a month and a half and now you call me?” but it was just as satisfying to say “Sorry! Got a job.”.

    4. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      It’s hard because you’re seeing your end, where you’re just living your life.

      But on their end, ALL THE THINGS could have happened. For example, their boss decided to take on a major last minute project and told them that all hiring is on hold until next week. Or, someone died. Or, the office flooded. Or, the HR person decided to take a last minute cruise to Brazil, and won’t be back until next Thursday. Or, their office is suddenly inundated with bees. Or, they were forced to go on a last minute work retreat with no internet access where they sit around a campfire and talk about their feelings.

      I could go on haha, but hopefully this made you laugh/roll your eyes. All you can do is assume the worst, and move on.

  13. Lily Evans*

    My coworker has been trying to get me to date her son. Today’s my last day and I’m leaving for a job two hours away so I have a built in reason to say no but it just makes me so uncomfortable.

    It started when I was out to lunch one day with my work friend. This coworker, Jane, came into the restaurant with her son. She saw us and came over to introduce him then they went to their own table and that was that. A few days later, Jane corners me in the staff lounge and starts talking about how her son is such a nice boy but so shy and then she asked if I knew any nice young ladies to set him up with. It was obvious what she was angling at, but I thought she was gauging my interest while giving me a really easy out. It was awkward but I was like, okay, at least she didn’t put me in a situation where I had to outright say no.

    Then a few days ago, at the goodbye lunch the office had for me (she must’ve seen it as her last chance), she got me alone and asked if I would have coffee sometime with her son because I’m such a sweet girl and she worries that he doesn’t have anyone to take care of him. It was So Uncomfortable. Fortunately I just reminded her that I’m leaving, but it was just such a bad note to end on.

    I’m glad I’m leaving because I honestly don’t even know how to react in situations like that. I’m not usually interested in dating men and my sexuality isn’t random coworkers’ business. Jane had no idea if I’m even single. I am so not interested in “taking care” of a fully grown man (that’s one of the reasons I don’t typically date them). Plus I’m not really “sweet”. I have good manners and I’m very polite and friendly at work but I also take no BS. Honestly, I kind of bristle at that adjective because I know I’m young but I try very hard to seem professional. And I had a good relationship with Jane up until that point and this just completely soured my view of her.

      1. Lily Evans*

        Fortunately, I see her very rarely so it hasn’t ruined my whole week. It just made lunch super awkward.

    2. Cass*

      Ugh! How inappropriate….and you are not alone in not being thrilled if a mother tells you her grown son needs “taking care of.”

      2. Lucky Charm*

        Oh gosh… I remember the mother of an ex-boyfriend of mine saying those same words to me about her son. I flat out told her that he is a grown adult and needs to take care of himself and that if I wanted to be a mother, I would have a child of my own. We had a good relationship until that point. For her to say that was a huge red flag and made me evaluate the relationship between me and ex-boyfriend.

        I broke up with the guy a few months later. He’s getting married later this year to a woman who is definitely a mother figure to him and already has children of her own.

      3. Merry and Bright*

        Yes. I’d also wonder why she hasn’t raised her son to take care of himself. Just no.

    3. Folklorist*

      “Such a sweet boy….she worries that he doesn’t have anyone to take care of him.”

      OMFG, presumably he’s a grown man, right? I feel sorry for you AND for the guy, with a mom who doesn’t think that he’s a grown-up who can take care of himself. This lady needs some boundaries, stat.

      1. Jennifer*

        Even worse: he might be the kind of guy who can’t take care of himself and needs a mommy.

        1. Lily Evans*

          That’s what I worry about! And she kept saying “he’s just so shy” and I was just like, yeah or he doesn’t tell you about his social life. I wouldn’t blame him if she meddles like this all the time…

          1. JMegan*

            Ha, my first thought was to wonder if the son isn’t telling her about his social life because he’s gay. Unfortunately, some parents might find “shy” a lot easier to accept than the alternative.

            1. Tinker*

              Yeah, that was basically the situation when I was on the other end of this thing. My mom brought me up as a charity case to a fifth cousin or some such who happens to live in the same city I do, because I was alone and friendless aside from the close friend that she strongly disapproves of, the longstanding social circle that she was mostly dismissing because of various issues she had with the people in it (e.g. an ex-boyfriend that she’d previously seen as the Great Marriage Hope) and how I related to them (e.g. not angry with my ex-boyfriend’s then-girlfriend), the online community I was heavily involved in or would be except the Internet isn’t real, and the various folks I was dating that she didn’t hear a peep about because she would start fretting about the path to monogamous heterosexual marriage to a man and their unsuitability for this plan because too poly and in some cases too female. So I was too busy with my friends to solve the problem of having no friends, which is basically what I ended up telling the guy.

        2. MsChanandlerBong*

          Like my father. He lived with his mother for 18 years, and then he married my mother. He is firmly in the “I take care of the water filter and put a new roof on the house every 10 or 15 years, so you can do all of the cooking, housework, errands, bill paying, and other tasks by yourself” camp.

    4. dancer*

      She’s not selling him very well either. My mental response is “What’s wrong with your son that he needs someone to take care of him…?”

    5. Ama*

      I wonder if he knows what she’s up to? When I was just out of college, I spent a year teaching Sunday School at my childhood church. The director of religious education kept talking up this single guy who was teaching another class (we didn’t teach in the same time slot, so I’d never met him) and kept talking about how interested he was in getting my phone number. When I finally agreed, the next week she came back with *his* phone number and told me he was kind of shy but would be interested if I called him. I’m pretty sure we were both just trying to get the director off our backs without actually having to go on a date, and that she was exaggerating to both of us how interested the other was.

      No one called anyone, which is probably for the best as I’m now halfway across the country and no longer particularly religious.

      1. Lily Evans*

        That’s another thing. I wouldn’t want to go out with a guy who’s only doing it because his mom pushed him into it. I also wouldn’t want to go out with a guy who relies on his mom to set him up. It’s a real lose-lose.

      2. Accountant*

        When I first moved to where I live now, this lady at my church was So Excited to set me up with this nice young man (she never said anything, but it was clear to me that she thought she was quite the matchmaker). She was in charge of a homeless ministry at the church and scheduled us for the same volunteer shift. He and I cooked dinner for some homeless people, and were both relieved– he was relieved to find out I was married and I was relieved to find out he had a boyfriend. We got to be friends though, and still laugh about it.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        UGH!
        I had a coworker once who gave my phone number to someone I don’t know if she knew that well, and whom I had no idea even existed. I only found out about it when he called out of the blue to chat me up.

        Boy did she get an earful the next day at work. To her credit, she understood what she had done wrong so I forgave her, but I told her I didn’t want her to ever do it again. And she didn’t.

        1. Abbott*

          Wow. At least she understood what she had done wrong. I know people who have done the exact same thing or similarly giving customers’ numbers to each other, who would not grasp that they shouldn’t have done it.

    7. Wendy Darling*

      My SO’s mom, who lives in another country, once told me to take good care of him when she was leaving after a visit. I looked at her like she had three heads and said I thought he took care of himself rather well.

      1. Lily Evans*

        Honestly, I tried to brainstorm situation’s where it would be appropriate to tell an adult to “take care of” their SO and the only one I could come up with is if they’re bedridden for some reason.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          I mean I definitely took care of him for like 24 hours when he’d had a minor oral surgery and was super high on pain killers? But that’s just kind of what you do.

        2. ThatGirl*

          My brand-new BIL told me, drunkenly, after our wedding to take care of his brother. But that was sweet and I knew what he meant.

          1. TootsNYC*

            And I think that’s the kind of “take care of him” that’s appropriate–many of us look out for our siblings, emotionally; you want to think their spouse will take on a similarly supportive mindset.

        3. Chrissie*

          I have tolerated HIS 90 year old grandma saying “It is so nice that you have each other, because men need someone to take care of them…” but that is the only appropriate scenario I can think of.

      2. LiteralGirl*

        My stepson’s mom chewed out his SO when he had a severe asthma attack. Said that she wasn’t taking care of him properly. Um, he’s a grown man?

    8. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Just be polite, but set very very firm boundaries. It’s also possible her son feels awful because of his aggressive mom.

      It actually sounds a lot like my mom, except she was the one pressuring a male medical student at her workplace to date/find guys to date me…..
      …despite me already happily with my bf of a couple years.

      What planet do these mothers come from? (Half serious/half not. I mean, what families raise women up to do things like this?) :/

      1. StellsBells*

        My husbands mother was like this! We dated/lived together for 5 years before we were married, and only once we were actually married did she stop trying to push other girls on him. Although her motivation was less “you need someone to take care of you” and more “these ladies would help you climb the social ladder”.

        I feel for you Carmen. It was very stressful for the hubs and caused a huge wedge between him and his mother for a long time.

    9. Irishgal*

      Maybe you are too polite? You can firmly shut someone down and still be polite e.g. “Jane I’m sure your son is lovely but I’m not interested. ” and change subject aka “bean dip” the conversation. It’s a good life and work skill to learn.

      1. Lily Evans*

        It’s definitely possible I’m too polite. That tends to be my default in awkward situations. But I’ve trained myself out of automatically agreeing to things I don’t actually want to do at least.

        1. BSharp*

          On the bright side, you have a coworker who likes you enough she wants to be related to you.

          (I’m so sorry, Boundaryless Lady must have made things so awkward and uncomfortable.)

          1. Lily Evans*

            Well the thing is she barely knows me! I only ever saw her a handful of times a month in passing. I feel like if she actually knew me she wouldn’t like me as much, not because I’m actually a terrible person, but I definitely don’t fit the way she described me to me (sweet, apparently subservient).

            1. Gandalf the Nude*

              I get this on occasion. I recently helped out in a department that I don’t normally get to spend much time with, and everyone kept making jokes about them corrupting me. And I’m just thinking, “Oh, honey, if you only knew.”

              1. Elizabeth*

                OMG THIS!
                I present (apparently) 6-ish years younger than I am (according to my co-workers), and while my forceful “New Jersey” nature comes through when I’m dealing with vendors, everyone thinks I’m so cute and nice. And this is why I don’t let anyone from work ride with me cause me in traffic is not nice and has quite the potty mouth.

            2. Van Wilder*

              People just assume women are sweet until they see evidence to the contrary. Sounds like she’s not being picky though, just awkward and desperate.

              1. Lily Evans*

                I’m also somewhat petite with a round face and I often get mistaken for younger than I am (a TSA agent last summer thought I was under twelve… I was 23) and I feel like that leads to the assumptions of sweetness too. I’m also pretty quiet, which probably doesn’t help. Friends of friends are always shocked when they find out that I’m actually super sarcastic and swear constantly.

            3. Tinker*

              Oh man, I had that exact thing happen to me a couple times — a bit of paraphrasing here, but things on the order of “Hey so I notice that you’re so terribly shy and geeky and timid and reserved, and my cousin’s hairdresser’s son is just like you and really wants a girlfriend, maybe I should introduce you?”

              Part of the trouble, I realized later, was that in the early years of my career I was working really, really hard to BE NORMAL and NOT BE WEIRD and DO THE SOCIAL and DEFINITELY DON’T VOMIT RAINBOWS AND SPECIAL INTERESTS ALL OVER THE OFFICE or you will NEVER GET A JOB EVERRRRR and looking back on that (partly with the aid of pictures from that era) I definitely came off as a person who smiled a lot and had no opinions whatsoever about anything.

              The one time I took the offer, we went out for sushi and one-sided conversation (not at all unusual for me, although in more successful cases the parties take turns ranting), and the victim mostly sat there looking like he had already screwed his courage to the sticking place for the shark tank cage diving tour and had now found that the bars had been made of meat rather than the traditional steel. Which in fairness is a reasonable reaction to dating me.

              I think anyone who is read as female is, to a certain sort of person, easy to read as timid and subservient unless they offer substantial proof otherwise. Add to that that when a lot of your total energy as a person doesn’t show up in a given environment for whatever reason, you look to them like you have less presence in total than a person than someone who has a similar amount of energy but reflects more of it in that environment, and the result seems to be a perception that is disjoint in that way.

          1. Lily Evans*

            I know. It’s an awful ingrained behavior that has roots in my anxiety problems, but it really is something I’m working on. I’m just constantly like “show me how to say no to this. I don’t know how to say no to this” in a panicky internal monologue.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              By not saying no you can increase your anxiety levels. Because now this problem won’t stop and each time it happens the anxiety gets worse.

              Ironically, I used this as motivation to learn to nip things when I see them the first time. Which is worse, saying no now or tap dancing around this for six more conversations?

              “Right now I have several things going on in my life and I am not interested in starting a relationship.” [explanation for the answer, then the answer]

              “I’m sorry I am going to have to tell you no on this one because the timing is just soo not good for me.” [apology, then irrefutable reason]

              “No, but thank you for the compliments. I am sure you son will find a nice partner when the time is right for him.”[answer, say something appreciative, then redirect away from you.]

              “Gee, you are a nice person and I have so enjoyed working with you. But you know, with the move and everything I am just not in a place where I can think about starting a relationship right now.” [flatter, flatter, reality check then NO bomb. Don’t lie, though.]

              If she tries again later:
              “Gee, Jane, I thought we had talked about this and we realized it was not such a good idea with the move and all.”
              “Jane, you asked me this before and I still remain consistent in my answer. No, it’s not a good idea for me.”

              If she still persists:
              “Jane,you seem like a sincere person. I feel that I must tell you, please stop asking me about your son. And please do not do this to other coworkers, either. It’s not fair to them.”

              1. Lily Evans*

                THANK YOU!!! It helps me so much to have scripted things like this to keep in mind for tough social situations (which is no small part of why I love reading AAM so much). And you’re so right about prolonging the anxiety, that is actually another bad habit of mine I’ve been working on unlearning.

    10. Sunflower*

      A coworker tried to set me up with her daughter’s best friend UGH UGH UGH it was SOOOO WEIRD. Thankfully this happened like a week before my last day and I got out of it. Him being her son makes it even worse ugh. Good luck at your new job!

      1. Lily Evans*

        Evan if I had been interested, I never would have dated a coworker’s son just because of the potential drama. It reminds me of the episode of Gilmore Girls where Lorelai dates the son of one of her mother’s friends and all hell breaks loose when the date goes badly. Like what if I initiated a break up and had to listen to Jane try to re-sell her son to me every time I saw her? Yikes.

        And thank you!

        1. Chrissie*

          lol, I thought you were going to say where Lorelai dates her daughter’s teacher and all hell breaks loose when they break up. Seems to be a pattern…

          1. OfficePrincess*

            Or where Lorelai dates her father’s colleague’s son and all hell breaks loose when they go public AND again when they break up….

    11. Van Wilder*

      Ugh! Honestly, it would be inappropriate no matter what but his selling point is that she wants someone else to share the load of taking care of him? Pass. Poor guy. He probably hates her. He may be uninterested in women for all she knows.

      1. Lily Evans*

        Yeah, there’s really only three possibilities for his role in it. One, he has no idea his mom is trying to find him a woman and he would probably be uncomfortable if he knew. Two, he knows and actually wants his mom to find someone for him (yikes). Or three, he’s not interested in women or even romance and dating in general.

        1. Honeybee*

          Well, there are other possibilities – he could know that his mom is doing this and still be uncomfortable, but feel unequipped to tell her to stop (or maybe has tried and she keeps doing it without his consent). Or he could not know, but would be totally okay with it if he did know. He could be somewhere in the middle, where he really wishes she’d stop but wouldn’t refuse a date if his mom found someone great for him. And his mom’s actions don’t really have anything to do with whether he’s interested in women or romance or dating – he could be, be could not be, it’s sort of unrelated.

          It’s like Alison says all the time – people can’t control anyone but themselves, and everyone has a crazy/embarrassing relative.

          1. Lily Evans*

            That is true. But I meant that the reason that his mother thinks he’s shy around women could be because he’s just not interested in them and hasn’t told her (or has told her and she hasn’t accepted it, though I’d hope that’s not the case).

            1. Lily Evans*

              Also, I totally get the crazy relative. My aunt constantly tries to set me up with men. We were out to eat once and she’d had a few glasses of wine and tried to get the drummer in the band that was playing to talk to me despite the fact that I could not have been less interested and was asking her to stop.

              1. Lily Evans*

                I don’t want to keep replying to myself, but in case anyone wants a visual of my aunt trying to get him to talk to me, she was literally waving at him and then pointing to me while wiggling her eyebrows. I was ready to melt into the floor.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  Okay, now I see why the anxiety. Situations that are similar to previous situations can trigger anxiety in folks.

                  Try to separate the situations. When you are talking with your coworker decide NOT to think about your aunt for the moment. Thinking about that situation with your aunt will not be a positive train of thought to get you out of the coworker situation.

                2. Mander*

                  Oh man, that reminds me of a time I went to a concert with my aunt in a small bar. I wanted to talk to the singer, but there was absolutely nothing sexual about it — I was just a big fan and I basically wanted to thank him for playing in such an obscure place so that I could actually see him.

                  My aunt did not understand this at all and was passing him notes about how I thought he was cute, etc. via the bartender. I didn’t know this until we saw him outside the bar after the show and I asked him to autograph a poster I’d swiped from the venue. I pretty much wanted to die on the spot.

    12. Honeybee*

      “she worries that he doesn’t have anyone to take care of him.”

      Then hire him a home health aide? or a housekeeper? I mean, it’s bad enough that she’s bugging you to date her son but it’s super disgusting and creepy that this is one of her motivations behind it. Teach your son to take care of himself.

    13. catsAreCool*

      “she worries that he doesn’t have anyone to take care of him.” Yeah, for me that’s a huge red flag. I prefer men who are actually self-sufficient adults.

  14. KR*

    We had a meeting with some of our employees (public access media) about changing up the way we do things so instead of trying to get as much work done as possible, they’re focusing on improving the quality of specific projects. The work they’ve done just this week is so impressive and I’m so happy. Payroll is doubled, which is excellent because we were really trying to encourage them to work more and tell them that we didn’t mind how much they worked as long as it was under 29 hrs a week (ACA). All in all, I’m so happy with my team and they’ve done a lot of good work this week. Also, I’m covering for my boss on the IT front and nothing serious has gone wrong all week except for one issue that was mainly on a vendor to fix – I just had to be there to give them remote access and keep track of the issue. A good week aside from my own personal issues.

  15. Misty*

    I posted this in an off-topic in a thread yesterday, forgetting that the open thread was already today! Dur. Sorry, Alison.

    I need a reality check about this job application — is this normal or weird? It’s for a six-month internship paying roughly minimum wage, which is significantly less than the market rate for a real employee doing this kind of work. It’s a blend of administrative, editorial and PR work in an industry I’m hoping to get a start in. (I’m currently employed full-time in a different-but-related industry, but am looking for a change; transition between these industries is not terribly unusual, but people take different routes to it.) I sent in my resume and cover letter, and they sent me a test to take consisting of ten short-essay type questions about the industry. It seems to me like these questions will require a nontrivial amount of research and thinking — they’re not simple factual quiz questions, nor are they “show us how you work” exercises like “write a sample press release.” They’re more like, describe the landscape of the industry and the challenges facing people in this sector of it. Or, Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of this particular industry norm. Ten questions’ worth of that kind of thing. I would estimate I’d need to set aside at least a weekend afternoon to do it well.

    It’s obviously not that they’re trying to get work product out of me for free, but it kind of seems like a LOT of work for a position that is pays so little, and particularly one that pays so little precisely because it’s assumed that it would be teaching ME things about an industry I’m new to. I could imagine doing some research to be prepared to discuss these types of questions verbally in an interview, but I haven’t even gotten an interview yet. Am I off-base or does this process seem silly? (I might do it even if it’s silly, but just trying to get some perspective.)

    1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Internship applications can be strange, especially if they see it as more of a fellowship or “elevated” internship.

      It may also be their way of testing your writing and critical thinking skills without actually asking you for work product. That being said, ten questions is really long.

    2. Court*

      I have no experience with this sort of thing but from what you’ve described, I would find this excessive for an internship. And how do they expect you to know (or know how to find) the answers to those kinds of questions if you haven’t worked in the industry before?

    3. StellsBells*

      It does seem silly, but it sounds more like they are looking for current college students for the internship, so they decided to structure it like an essay contest vs an actual interview.

      If you get the role be prepared for the other interns to all be juniors or seniors in college. Obviously I don’t know anything about your age or background so while this might be a deal breaker for some people, it might not be for you. My husband went through something similar (went back to school in his late 20s so he was applying for internships in his early 30s), and sometimes the slight age difference was a bit more than he could take (most of the time it was fine though)

    4. Chriama*

      This sounds like someone used to working with students. Often times you don’t have real experience so seeing your ability to think and analyze based on what you’ve learned in class is the best way to assess your fit for this role. 10 questions is kind of a lot, but I don’t think it’s inherently unreasonable.

    5. Van Wilder*

      It sounds like they’re trying to get people to edit themselves out of the running instead of doing the work of thoroughly vetting the candidates themselves. Too bad for them because it will probably turn off some good candidates.

    6. Ife*

      That does seem like a lot of work for an internship application. As others mentioned, I can see why they might use an essay-format for an internship aimed at students, but those questions seem kind of…high level… for someone new to the industry, particularly the one about describing the “landscape of the industry.”

      Anyway, I wouldn’t think of it as “a LOT of work for a position that is pays so little,” because a lot of the value in an internship is experience and getting experience in your new field. So, factor that into your equation of, Is it worth it to spend an afternoon writing essays? For me personally, if I was looking for a new job in my field, the answer to that would be, “Thanks, no thanks.” But if I was looking to switch to something I don’t have much experience in, I would probably be more willing to do it because I wouldn’t have as many options.

    7. Misty*

      Thanks all. This is all about what I had concluded — a little excessive but that’s the price of admission when you’re new.

    8. Nobody*

      Ugh, that’s annoying, but it will probably drastically decrease the number of applicants (since there won’t be many people who will bother with this), so if you’re willing to put in the effort, you’ll probably have a good chance of getting it.

  16. Academic Partner*

    I’m hoping to get some advice particularly from the academic community here, and anyone else who might have some insight into this situation.

    My partner, who holds an adjunct teaching position at a university, overheard a professor in the department, with whom he has had some issues in the past, disparage my partner’s teaching abilities, in particular his performance in a class which he taught in this professor’s place last year. Worse, he did so in conversation with a student currently enrolled in both of their classes this semester. The professor likely does not know that my partner was down the hall and couldn’t help but hear most of their conversation.
    My partner is hurt by the comments, but I’m more concerned how he should handle this situation. I come from a pretty typical corporate background, and I’m not sure if there are nuances in this environment which I might be missing. We both feel that it was an inappropriate conversation for this professor to have with a student, and that it could affect how my partner interacts with this student for the remainder of the semester. There’s backbiting in workplaces of all stripes, but I gather that academia is particularly competitive, and I think that this might be a common experience. I would be so grateful to hear how others would handle this situation, and particularly if other academics out there have had similar experiences.

    1. fposte*

      In my academic world that would be Not Done. You could say, “I’m sorry you had difficulty with the material Professor Snape presented; I can help catch you up on that day’s material if you feel that would be helpful.” You could say, “Sometimes it’s tough to step into an existing class.” But you couldn’t say, “Yeah, that Professor Snape isn’t much of a teacher.”

      The what to do question is a little trickier, because it depends on the players and the culture. One possibility is to try to meet with the professor in question to say “I accidentally overheard your concerns about my teaching. I would love to hear any tips you have for improvement in that area–and I’d ask that in future you bring those to me rather than to the students.” One possibility is to say much the same thing to the department chair. The third possibility, of course, is to let it roll off you.

      I think what Other Prof is doing is bad for the department, so I’d go for the department chair if I thought it was safe and useful. But in many situations, unfortunately, it wouldn’t be.

      1. Court*

        I would personally choose the first option. I think people who behave this way need to be alerted that (a) they’re being jerks and (b) they’re not acting appropriately. Using the wording fposte provided would be a nice way to nudge them toward that understanding without turning it into a full on confrontation.

        I might amend the “I accidentally overheard your concerns” to “I’m not sure if you were aware, but I was actually in the office/area/wherever when you were voicing your concerns over my teaching style to one of my students.” Maybe not exactly that but something like it. I think the first suggestion gives the other professor an immediate way to place the blame on your friend for eavesdropping and gives them a way to skirt around the issue.

    2. Ophelia*

      This is not specific to an academic context, but from personal experience I think there’s a lot of empowerment just in (nicely, diplomatically) letting someone know that you know they are being a jerk. Even if they don’t apologize or anything, having the stuff out in the open feels a lot better than going around in the a cloud of dramatic irony (“they think I suck, but they don’t know that I know they think I suck!”)

      1. KG*

        +1 I sometimes get frustrated with my coworkers and have vented about a couple of them. If that person had heard me, I would feel pretty ashamed of myself and you can bet I wouldn’t continue to do it.

    3. Laura*

      I work in higher ed.

      Your partner should request a meeting with the department chair and explain to him/her what happened and how this undermines your partner’s ability to teach effectively.

    4. Hermione*

      In my experience (as an higher-ed admin) in a dogfight between a tenured professor and an adjunct, the adjunct is going to LOSE, every time. That’s not to say this is a dogfight, nor to say that this department would be that petty or that this tenured professor holds this much power, but I would tell your partner to be very careful here if he raises his concerns.

      Adjuncts are generally treated pretty horribly, in my experience. Full-time faculty members don’t like them because they think all courses should be taught by full-time faculty members, but have no qualms about leaving the department hanging for someone to teach their classes every time they take a sabbatical or leave. Tenure-track professors can get a “higher-than-thou” attitude about adjuncts, which is ridiculous because they often have all the same qualifications as the full-time faculty, but because of whatever reason didn’t get a full-time, tenure-track job in their first few years out of their graduate degrees and now are stuck with adjunct positions.

      That said, the adjuncts we’ve had during my time here have sort of been forced to take these comments quietly; one of the nicest adjuncts I met summed up how she’s been treated with a story of her first department holiday party. Upon being introduced to the adjunct by a grad student, a faculty member looked her hard up and down, rolled her eyes, and walked away, only to join a group of other faculty members, point a thumb over her shoulder at the adjunct, and laugh uproariously. This same faculty member’s office is right by the adjunct office, and every time they pass in the hallway, the faculty member mutters in her native language under her breath.

      I really hope your husband finds a way to bring his concerns to the Chair – especially with regards to what should/shouldn’t be said in front of students. The faculty member is certainly allowed to think what he thinks about your partner’s teaching skills or style, and I would argue that, though it’s rude, he’s allowed to talk to other faculty members about your partner’s teaching. But talking rudely about a colleague in front of students shouldn’t be allowed, and I would hope that your husband’s department is more willing to hear and act on his concerns than my department has been.

      1. BRR*

        I’m with you on this. I don’t think an adjunct can win against a tenured professor (in general it’s very difficult to win against a tenured professor). There’s very little to gain and a lot to lose.

        1. fposte*

          The other thing I’d say is that even in a department that values its adjuncts, they’re likely just to say “Hey, Professor Bozo, don’t do that, okay?”

          That being said, there are players in my department where it would absolutely work to talk to them, and my department would be really unhappy if somebody was making that kind of comment (I would report it if I heard a professor saying that about somebody else, in fact). It also might be a small piece of the picture if somebody is tenure stream but untenured.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            A friend of mine is a very good teacher, she naturally considerate of others’ lack of exposure to the subject matter and she explains the necessary pieces as she goes along in her main explanation.

            I told her that she missed her true calling as a natural teacher. She laughed. She said she can only teach adults and only when the adults are behaving like adults. She felt that ruled her out of most teaching situations.

      2. Christian Troy*

        I agree with you.

        I guess I sound jaded because to me this is not uncommon at all and I’m not sure how much is going to be gained by complaining to the Chair. I don’t think it’s OK but academia is just such a messy, personality and ego driven environment.

      3. Hermione*

        And I should say that to me, “losing” can be anything from being forced to just deal with it to being labeled as a troublemaker and not being asked back for another semester, so your partner should consider very, very carefully what they plan to do. I hate that it’s like this, but it’s the reality I have seen.

      4. Alma*

        This. I had to read OP’s letter twice to note that the partner is adjunct and the donkeybutt a full professor.

        I agree that the partner should make an appointment with the Department Chair.

        1. fposte*

          I don’t see any indication that the offender is a full professor, though. “Professor” is used pretty interchangeably all along the stream, and it certainly isn’t limited only to full professors.

          1. Academic Partner*

            OP here. Fposte, he is indeed a full professor, in case that’s helpful. I know that it certainly influences the power dynamics at play here.

            I might also take this opportunity to thank you and all of the other commenters here for your thoughtful and helpful advice. I feel so much more equipped to talk this out with my partner later. I’m really and truly grateful.

    5. Anxa*

      Hmm.

      I’ve had issues with instructors’ styles, but only have ever talked to students about it in the context of how it may be incompatible with the structure of the course, learning styles, or to give them tips on how to work with it.

      Of course, I would never say anything to undermine them. When students complain to me, I try to find the balance between validating and listening to their complaints and supporting the instructor (a challenge).

      I think a lot of how to handle and perceive the situation depends on how the context started. Was the professor pointing out why he thought your partner wasn’t doing well in response to a student, or do you think that instructor brought it up. While neither situation justifies unkind words, it would make a difference to me.

      Maybe the professor is trying to nip away at any possible future competition?

      1. Academic Partner*

        Thanks for your reply, Anxa.

        This student went to see the professor because he is struggling in his course, Advanced Calculus for Teapot Engineers. The student is particularly surprised by his poor performance because he excelled in Introduction to Calculus for Teapot Engineers, the course which my partner taught last year in place of this professor (very much a situation like Hermione described above: this professor had no qualms leaving his department hanging on finding a different instructor to lead the course, but a lot to say about my partner when he stepped up to do it. The criticism was largely not constructive, as you might imagine). The professor essentially told the student that he wasn’t surprised that the student was unprepared for the rigors of the Advanced class since he knew (from observing my partner once) that my partner’s class was not up to snuff, and continued to undermine my partner from there.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          That sounds like the class was not up to snuff because of the previous professor not your partner. I could be reading this wrong though.

    6. Ultraviolet*

      My gut feeling is that your partner’s viable options are either 1) let it go, or 2) tell the professor he overheard the conversation and would like to hear more about what the professor didn’t like about his substitute lecture. Possible script: “The other day I heard you telling Student that you had concerns about the lecture I gave your Teapots 101 class on spout design. I didn’t realize you were unhappy with that lecture. Can you tell me more about the issues you found with it?” With a lot of the professors I can imagine doing what this one did, this approach would be a good combination of directness and [apparent] interest in their opinion.

      I would only consider going to the chair if this particular professor has an outsized role in supervising/assessing/rehiring your partner. In that case it might be important to notify the chair that the professor is showing a serious lack of respect. Otherwise, I’d guess going to the chair isn’t worth the political repercussions.

      1. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

        Ooh is is good.

        I agree that anything remotely confrontational is a bad idea for an adjunct re: a tenured department member.

        Is your partner on the job market already? If I heard this from a tenured person in my department (especially sub field) I would be seriously job searching. Even if the rest of the department likes him and he has good teaching evals, a negative view from this person likely means he will never transition to a more secure position in the department. (Or worse, if he did, he could put in 6 years and then have this dude sink his tenure prospects.)

        1. Academic Partner*

          My partner is on the market, but I do think that this situation has made him realize just what you’ve pointed out here: that any hope for this position to turn into something more permanent could be torpedoed by this professor, and he’s not really willing to stick around to find out!

  17. NylaW*

    My boss is one of those people who just replies to emails and copies other people, or replies to an email and addresses it to another person (usually outside our organization) without thinking about the content of the email and whether all the replies in the train are something that person should see.

    Just today I emailed him to follow up on a project task. I felt that someone else in our department should be the person following up with a vendor, since she is the primary contact for that vendor and the system we purchased from them. But it impacts one of my projects. Both of us and my boss have been on all these messages for the last month. Today I sent my boss a rather exasperated email that basically asked once and for all, who should be going back to the vendor with all these questions, me or my coworker. And I reiterated how all this back and forth and me playing middle man has delayed us getting answers. It also hasn’t helped that my coworker has been out of the office a lot lately with training. The issue is though that I don’t have access to the vendor’s website to view the tasks we’ve entered with them, nor do I have the contact information for these people outside of their emails being in this now month long thread. Only my coworker has this access and information and knows all the players.

    So what does he do? Replies to that email, with all my whining in it that was clearly meant for his eyes only, and copies all 4 people at the vendor who have been involved in this, AND my coworker. So now I look like a jackass.

    1. Sadsack*

      Too late in this instance, but it’s a bad idea to put those kind of things in writing. The moment I feel like I am venting about something in an email, I stop and consider the tone or actual content. You probably can write the same message without it seeming accusatory if you step back and think about it for a couple of minutes.

      1. Sadsack*

        Sorry, I guess that probably dies not make you feel better! Yes, you would hope that he would have been more thoughtful when he sent your message along. But you can’t control other people’s actions, so it is better to be more cautious about your own. Anyway, hopefully the issue you wrote about will finally be resolved!

      2. NylaW*

        Well I’m working from home, he’s on the road at a conference, there was no way to address this until Wednesday next week and it needs to be address today. But I do understand what you mean. However I have that kind of relationship with my boss. I can say this stuff to him and he knows that yes I’m venting but it’s also a valid concern. My post probably made it sound more flippant than it really was. It was respectful but the message was “hey people aren’t doing the things they should do but no one seems to know what they should be doing FIX IT.”

    2. Glod Glodsson*

      Oooh, I feel your pain. One of our board members does this too and it drives me nuts! I’m always really careful about my wording when I mail him.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      I had a boss that would do that. Send emails up the chain that I didn’t mind big bosses seeing but I wanted the content rewritten so it was less bitchy. So, for the few people I couldn’t trust to have that kind of tact, I would say “if you would like to send this up the chain, please let me know and I will construct a message for VP Humperdink.”

      It helped.

      1. Liza*

        “Why’d you say that name? You promised me you would never say that name!”
        “Humperdink? Humperdink, Humperdink, Humperdink!”

    4. Nicole*

      Ooof, I feel for you. I used to work with a sales person who would take a huge interoffice thread and forward it to the customer because they were too lazy to start a new email to the customer to tell them how we were going to handle their inquiry. It was so unprofessional! I was always very diplomatic in my emails to ensure at least I came across professionally since I knew it would continue to happen.

  18. Audiophile*

    I have a two part question. I’ve been told I need to be more assertive, which I working towards, but it’s difficult because I’ve come from a few environments where this wasn’t accepted and it’s not a natural part of my personality. So the first question is, how would I become more assertive?

    Here’s the second question. I was told by my manager to never say no to the CEO. What do I do with that? I feel like it’s put me in such an awkward position. This happened about 2 weeks ago. I’ve since had my 3 month evaluation and my manager said she feels I’m too quick to say no. I realized, I think there’s some miscommunication both ways. I won’t argue that I may say “no” but I’m not refusing to do something or saying it can’t be done, it’s usually that we’re not thinking about it in the same way.

    I guess these issues would likely tie back into my being more assertive and maybe slowing down a bit when a request is made to make sure I understand what’s being asked. I’m not sure.

    It feels good to finally breathe a bit, now that I made it past 3 months.

    1. Terra*

      Being assertive can still be done in a nice way if it helps. The two things I’ve found that help are using simple straightforward statements and not framing things as questions. Basically change “can you get XYZ done by tomorrow or at least sometime this week, please?” would become “I need XYZ done by Monday close, please.” Or leave off the please (if you have co-workers who think please is a sign of a request/chance to open negotiations) and substitute with a thank you when the work is done. Smile, be calm and pleasant, and mentally frame everything with the assumption that it will get done correctly and on time if you just tell people.

    2. Granite*

      You need to be more assertive but not say no? I’m confused. Saying no, especially to an executive, is one of the most assertive things you can do. If I were you, I’d be asking my manager for more examples to get at what they really want.

    3. CM*

      Be assertive, but never say no! That’s easy advice to follow. (Sarcasm)

      I think the key to being assertive is expressing your needs directly. Try not to use softening language or beat around the bush. Don’t ever say things like “This may be a dumb idea, but…” or “It would be great if you could, but you don’t have to…” Try identifying one or two ways in which you feel you’re not being assertive that are impacting you negatively, and working on fixing those.

      And as for the CEO, it’s hard for me to know where that “never say no” advice is coming from without context, but maybe you just need to find a way of communicating that shows that you’re absolutely on the CEO’s team and on board with their vision? Or makes your team look good? Like, if the CEO makes an unreasonable request like “do X immediately,” instead of “no” you could say “I agree we need to do X, but I’m concerned that prioritizing would make us miss the deadline on Y, so I would suggest that we get X done by the end of the week; would that work?” Or if the CEO says “is X done,” instead of saying “no” you could say, “Our team has been working hard on X, it’s halfway done and we should be on track to make the deadline.”

      1. TootsNYC*

        assertive is often concise. So make the request, and then STOP TALKING.

        Say, “I need a copy of the report; can I get it by 3pm?” And wait. Don’t explain, don’t apologize. Wait. Let there be silence. (Smile while you wait, but shhhh.)

        Overexplaining makes you look apologetic.

    4. Jinx*

      Oooh, this is a good question. I haven’t received that kind of feedback, but I’ve definitely recognized that behavior in myself. And it’s not even that I say “no” right away, it’s usually that I point out we need to think about “a”, “b”, and “c” dependencies that complicate the issue, which means we need to do “x”, “y”, “z”, which is a way bigger thing than the original query. Sometimes I’m misreading the situation, which makes it seem like I’m digging my heels in for no reason.

      What’s helped me is not saying “yes” or “no” in the moment (if that’s possible). If it’s a complicated issue I’ll say “I don’t have any immediate concerns, but let me look at it and I’ll get you a response by the end of the day”. That gives me time to formulate any potential objections or complicates better than I would in the moment, which makes my response look helpful instead of contrary. Slowing down, as you mentioned, definitely helps me.

      1. Abbott*

        Ooh, this is good. I tend to get overexcited and agree to stuff in the moment. Yes! That will be awesome! Great, I will do that! Etc. Stopping and thinking like this with the no immediate objections phrasing is great advice. Gives me time to think about objections instead of agreeing first and then realizing the scope of the task is much greater than I’d thought.

    5. GT*

      I have the problem of “saying no” too much, but that’s because my boss is not very good at logistics (not sure if this applies to what you do). I have found what works best for me (and I hate having to do it, but it works) is that I fake enthusiasm for his idea, then ask for advice on dealing with the logistical reason I think it won’t work. Perhaps the asking for advice route will work?

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Sometimes when people are trying to be more assertive, they take it too far — it comes out feeling brusque or rude because they’re new to it and they haven’t quite calibrated their assertiveness setting correctly yet. Could something like that be happening here?

      There’s a difference between “no, I’m not going to do that” (feels pretty brusque in most situations) and “I can’t help out this time because I’m on a deadline for project Z” (still says no, but in a kinder way).

      1. Audiophile*

        I’m glad you saw this. I read an previous post but still wanted to post my question in the open thread.

        I’m generally not an assertive person, for a whole host of reasons. So this isn’t the first time I’ve heard “you need to be more assertive.” Or “don’t be afraid to ask questions or say you don’t understand something.”

        As for the comment from my manager about not saying no to the CEO, the situation in question went like this: I was working on a letter that was going out and it was stretching to two pages, so CEO and my manager who’s the COO, were both in my office trying to help format it. When my manager came in she asked, “is the letter long?” I said “yes” and CEO said “no.” I’m sure I followed up with “well it is long but that’s ok”. So I wasn’t even saying “no” it was a response to a question from someone other than the CEO. Which is why I say, if I’m saying “no” it doesn’t mean I’m refusing to do something or disagreeing.

        My manager mentioned another situation where I said “no” but again, it wasn’t me saying I wouldn’t do something. We were discussing Eventbrite and she asked if we could send confirmation emails to attendees, well all the email invitations had already gone out and so I said “no”. That doesn’t mean you, I won’t find a workaround though.

        1. Turtle Candle*

          Hmm. I have to say, if I was asked a subjective question (and “is the letter long?” is fairly subjective) and someone less senior than me said “yes” and I said “no” and then they said “well it is long but that’s ok,” I’d see that as… hm. Odd. I’m trying to put my finger on exactly why, but it would definitely strike me as strange. (Actually, the “but that’s ok” would strike me as weirder than being contradicted–I don’t need to be reassured by a less senior person, I guess, and that’s what it would feel like.)

          1. Audiophile*

            I’m starting to understand what you’re saying. And when I sat down with my manager for my evaluation, we discussed the letter situation, I explained I was responding to her. She felt the letter was long, but similar to what you said, the CEO didn’t care/feel that way so it wasn’t our job (hers or mine) to say otherwise. (It’s definitely a subjective question, but it took fiddling with the margins and all the spaces between each paragraph to get this letter to fit on one page with the header and footer.)

        2. Not So NewReader*

          The two things I would do there are:

          1) Look to see who your boss is talking to. Assume it’s the higher ranking person in the room, UNTIL you know for sure she means you.

          2) The big boss said the letter was not long. Let it go. Say nothing further. I have worked with some sensitive folks who would say that your comment “it is long but it is okay” means you are trying to be contrary or have the last word or some such nonsense.
          Realize that these are people you cannot do this with.
          Some people would understand that you were backpedaling or that you were trying to cover your disagreement with the big boss by bridging the two opposing answers. But your boss does not read that subtlety and sees it as “arguing or being contrary”. The best thing to do is say nothing or say “oh, okay” if appropriate. Try to avoid bridging or backpedaling.

          This stuff is tough at first, but you will get into the swing of it very soon. Years ago, I did not know where to draw my own lines. I used these two tools here to get myself started and it helped so much.

          See, I think part of the problem is that we don’t automatically know when to be assertive and when to stop talking. This knowledge is not in our genes at birth. Be confident about things under your control, “Yes, boss, I will have task X completed by the time I go home today.” Or, “Boss, I need A and B to complete task Z. I cannot complete Z without it.”

          If other people are involved, then double check yourself to see how much say you actually have in the matter. Expect this to be an ongoing thing as new situations arise and you will catch yourself needing to do a double check again. For example, this situation with the letter and the big boss will never happen again, because you see what the answer is. So it’s the new situations that involve the double checks.

          1. Audiophile*

            In this instance, it may not have been a question that was really being addressed to anyone in particular but it’s hard to tell.

            You’re right, I should have stopped talking. I think I was expecting a different than what I got. And so when I heard “no” and I had already said something which was the opposite of that, I felt like I HAD to say something else. Not to get the last word, but to “correct” myself, though I understand how it can look that way.

            This job is going to take some adjustment on my part. I keep getting asked for my opinion and being told to be more assertive, but then situations like this occur. There’s definitely too many cooks in the kitchen, for most of these projects and it seems to derail them pretty often.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Occasionally ask, “Do you mean me or Other Person?”

              Yep, I can see where you felt you had to say something. BTDT. This is a stupid thing to say but let me reassure you that there are times when NO ONE notices if we say nothing. Sometimes damage control can just be to stop talking because people only notice if we keep pursuing the point. Making matters worse, I find that under pressure I can say things that have an ambiguous meaning. So while I mean well, I have said something that is open to a not-so-good interpretation.

              It won’t be long, you will get your feet under you on this one and you will feel differently than you do right now.

        3. TootsNYC*

          I mentioned this below:

          Don’t say the word “no” or the word “yes.”
          Say the sentence after it.

          So: “Can we send confirmation emails?”
          You: “The invites have already gone out.” (instead of “no,” or instead of “No, the invitations have already gone out.”)

          Maybe train yourself to say “well” as an answer to every question. It might buy you time to mentally get to the second (short) sentence.

          At the very least, maybe say “no because.”

          (the letter thing is just stupid, frankly)

    7. fposte*

      I’m wondering if “assertive” was not quite the right word for what they were looking for, given what you’re describing. “Decisive” or “direct,” maybe? I’m thinking that specifically with the sentence you write about saying “No” but not meaning a refusal or it can’t be done. That sounded to me like you might do some thinking out loud rather than answering in the terms that the CEO is going to find useful. But perhaps you could give another example if that wasn’t representative.

      And in general, a “No” is going to be read as a refusal or an inability, so I think you’d find it advantageous to avoid it unless that’s what you mean. There are usually other ways to say “What if…” or “I was thinking…” so maybe try those for a while.

    8. JMegan*

      First of all, I now have a little chant going in my head. Never say no to the C-E-O! Never say no to the C-E-O! Yeah!

      So, thanks for the neat rhyme! :)

      To answer your actual question – I’m not a big fan of that kind of directive either, because I assume most people (even CEOs!) are open to actual feedback about whatever they’re suggesting, and I’m not going to be a yes-woman just because someone is higher than me on the org chart. That said, sometimes you do have to say no to people who aren’t open to hearing it for one reason or another.

      My strategy in this case is not to say no, but to spell out whatever it would take for me to say yes. “In order for that to work, we would have to…
      ~Take resources away from Established Project X to work on Brilliant Idea Y
      ~Delay Brilliant Idea Y until after Established Project X is complete
      ~Ask for help from another department
      ~Increase the budget by a million dollars and hire a staff of trained circus performers

      The key is to be sincere and helpful when you deliver this message. Even if the requirements are ridiculous – if you actually DO need an extra million dollars and several new staff, ideally it will help the requester prioritize things in their mind.

      1. CM*

        This is great advice. And looking at your examples, now I understand the “never say no to the CEO” advice. When the CEO says “can we…” your job is to explain how to make it happen. The answer to “can we…” should very rarely be no. (Exception: unethical or illegal.) In your Eventbrite example, you can use JMegan’s advice here and say something like: “Eventbrite doesn’t support that, but we can do it manually. It would take me about an hour to put together the list and send out the email.”

    9. hnl123*

      Another thing too, which is a feedback I received, is that though my words THEMSELVES were assertive, my VOICE showed otherwise. I was told to speak louder. That helped with feeling more assertive, as well.

      We also had a body posture expert come into our workplace and showed us how to ‘appear’ more confident/assertive. (Some of the usual things, like stance, shoulders back, looking into people’s eyes, keeping arms open, etc)

      It makes a big difference, the non verbal aspects as well.

    10. TootsNYC*

      for one thing, never say the word “no”

      I don’t know if this will help you, but I hope you aren’t doing what my husbadn does.

      We’re driving, a car cuts him off, and he calls out, “Hey, watch it!”
      I wasn’t paying that much attention, so I say, “Oh, did he cut you off?”
      He says–watch this carefully now–“No, he pulled back in too close.”

      It doesn’t matter WHAT he’s answering, he always says “No.” And then says the answer, which is often simply restating what I said.

      I don’t think he really even listens to me, he just automatically says “no.”

      So never say “no.” Say the sentence AFTER the “no.”

      (and i think it’s funny that you’re supposed to be assertive, but you aren’t supposed to say no)

      1. Audiophile*

        You’ve given some great advice, so thank you. ‘

        I don’t think I’m as bad as your husband, but I clearly say “no” too much for these two people. Like your husband, I’ve started my sentences with no and then followed up with the answer. I realized while having this discussion the other day with my manager, that I need to slow down and maybe go back to her once I’ve digested what she’s saying.

        The “be more assertive” comment didn’t come from her, it came from someone else, but she’s asked me why I won’t give her my input and what she can do to get me to give it more willingly. She might as well be saying “hey, be more assertive”. It’s just hard to put into practice.

  19. Adam*

    I have more of a lifestyle question this week.

    Say you’re currently employed and it meets your essential needs but you want a new job for whatever the reason. When conducting a job search how much effort do you feel is sufficient to put towards an active job search while balancing the rest of your life? Do you have a certain number of applications you aim to send out a week? A set number of hours/days you spend on job hunting?

    I’m currently employed and it is sufficient to live on. The organization I work at is ok. Nothing really bad about it, but not personally satisfying or tangibly rewarding either. If I want to make significant progress towards my many goals in life, particularly financial ones, I will need to find greener pastures sooner rather than later. So finding a new position at a different employer is my #1 priority at the moment.

    After my work week there’s only so many hours left for all the other tasks and desires in life (and my commute SUUUUCKS). There are lots of things I want to do and goals I want to reach for, but the job hunt feels like it takes precedence since it’s the most pressing concern of mine. Really it’s hard to feel like I’m “doing enough” to find a new job until I actually have one.

    So what do you do to feel like you’re diligently putting in the time to find a new job while not putting the rest of your life on hold?

    1. Terra*

      Think of it like any other project. Set a reasonable goal based on how important it is to you and your expectations and then give yourself permission not to think about it once you’ve met your goal. The goal can be framed multiple ways. Either as needing to apply to X number of jobs per week or (if you feel that’s taking too much time) as needing to spend Y amount of time searching for and applying to jobs each day/week/etc. The later might be better for you if you’re concerned with balancing it with the rest of your life since it means that whether you apply to one job that requires a lot of in depth work on application materials or three jobs that only require a resume and cover letter you’ll still only be spending a pre-defined amount of time that can be scheduled into your day.

    2. Fabulous*

      I’ve been job “hunting” for about 18 months now, while employed full time for the past year in a temp job. I usually send out 1-3 applications a week, maybe less if I’m particularly busy or if nothing interesting comes around.

    3. Excel Slayer*

      Because it’s the sort of setup that works for me, I would put aside a certain number of specific times a week to job search/apply – enough to be a good chunk of time, but not enough that I don’t have time to do anything else.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      I tried for 3-4 good applications a week. One every other day or so. I also didn’t apply for everything. I took time to research companies and I got picky about where I applied.

    5. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I have an Indeed job alert set-up for my field, salary, and location that gets delivered to my email daily.

      I commit to taking 5 minutes to scan the email for jobs I would want to apply for. If there is nothing, I delete the email. If there is something, I commit to applying in the next three days. It’s made me feel proactive without feeling like it was taking over my life.

      1. Jules the First*

        I do this too. Once I’ve decided it’s time to move on, I call the four recruiters I work with to let them know I’m actively looking, and then I commit an hour every week to checking new postings, and set aside a couple of hours every other week to apply to things (and if there’s nothing worth applying to, which there sometimes isn’t, I spend that time working on my professional development).

        1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

          Ooh. I like the idea of still using the time even if there is nothing to apply to!

      2. Jennifer*

        Seconded. There really isn’t a whole lot out there for me to find in the first place, so that makes it short.

    6. Glod Glodsson*

      I have trouble with this as well, because when I do something I want to do it ALL THE WAY. Like, what if I miss this amazing job because I didn’t check today? It can take over my life. I think the best thing to do with such a search is to be really critical about what you apply to. So no jobs that sound okay-ish or that you’re not sure you’d be happy to do. Also maybe limit the time you spend applying to two evenings a week or something? Or maybe use some of your commute time to line up good openings?

      1. overeducated*

        Yes, this is something I’ve been having trouble with lately, especially when I work on applications at night before bed. I know I need time to settle down before sleeping, but when I have to spend those hours writing cover letters because I haven’t had any other time during the day, I can’t turn off my brain and the “what ifs?” and anxiety have been pretty constant. It turns out that having some times where I just STOP with anything work-related, like setting aside 1-2 evenings a week or a weekend day to just relax, is also really important to maintaining sanity. So don’t tell yourself “I’ll just do this one thing” if you’re feeling overwhelmed. Just turn it off and don’t think about it until the next day.

    7. Laura*

      You need to make it your highest priority outside of work and your personal health, if you are serious about moving on and finding something better. Apply for a few jobs during the work week, and work on doing more during the weekends. It’s really all about finding that one job that is going to be the right one, and unfortunately it takes a lot of applications to result in successful interviews.

    8. overeducated*

      I aim for around 3 applications a week. Sometimes I do fewer when I’m busy or there aren’t many openings, very rarely I find enough listings to apply for 4. That’s about the most I can handle during a normal week without going completely insane. I work on lunch breaks and after my kid is in bed. An average cover letter & resume application usually takes me 1-2 hours and a more involved one can take 3-4.

    9. NJ Anon*

      I peruse the job sites each morning and email any that I am interested in to myself. Then, on the weekend morning when I have more time, I actually apply. This works for me. I feel like I am getting something accomplished during the week. I don’t set a minimum or maximum. I just go with the ones that are a fit or I want to do some research on.

    10. Patty*

      I had the Indeed app on my phone and had saved searches. So I could review job listings during lunch, or other times I had opportunity to use my phone. Then I would save the jobs and apply for them on the weekends, or evenings when I had more time. I would only apply to jobs I was very interested in related to duties, commute, company, etc, so it wasn’t that many.

    11. No Longer Just a Lurker*

      This can be difficult. I don’t think setting up a number of apps per week is going to help because you really should be looking for the right job and currently being employed, even if you aren’t thrilled with it, gives you a cushion. There is a ton of advice on AAM so really look at the topics that apply to you and learn from the horror stories and make yourself stand out the right way. When I was in your almost exact situation I hooked up with a reputable recruiter after going at it on my own for about a year with middling success (several interviews and one offer that was unexpected because I thought it was obvious from the middle of the interview that it wasn’t a good match). I got great advice (she must read AAM) and some resume help and she really helped me find the right job – 3+ years and no plans to go anywhere…in fact they would have to pry me out of this chair with a crowbar. As a bonus there was a lot less legwork on my end so if you have that option its worth a shot.

      1. Adam*

        Thanks for the idea. I’ve always been kind of hesitant to work with recruiters as my previous experience hasn’t been great. I always felt like they were trying to pigeonhole me into their big accounts which were usually high volume call centers which….just no thank you….and any other opportunity I might reach for they weren’t very supportive of.

        I have more work experience now, so maybe it would be a different situation, but we’ll see.

    13. Joanna*

      While it may be appropriate to set an upper limit on the amount of time you can spend job hunting before it starts to harm other parts of your life, I think it helps to not get hung up about putting in the same amount of time and effort every week. Some weeks you’ll find a bunch of great openings that deserve detailed, high quality applications, other weeks you’ll find none worth much effort on. On weeks where the later applies, you’ll probably be better focusing on the other things you’ve got happening in life rather than driving yourself crazy trying to put in a certain number of applications.

  20. TheIntern*

    How do you answer the interview question, “How long do you plan to be in this position”?

    As a soon to be MSW graduate I am applying for entry level jobs with the hope of moving into program management/adminstration within 3 years. It’s be ideal to build a career path within one organization, but majority of nonprofits here are too small with little turnover to plan on ‘working your way to the top’.

    1. CM*

      Why not be honest? Your answer sounds reasonable and you can’t predict what they’re looking for, unless you have a contact at the organization who can give you some inside info.

    2. Terra*

      “It would depend on the company and position. Ideally I would like to move into program management and administration within 3 years and I can see myself doing that here.” If you want to be more explicit you can add a bit to the end about “as long as I have the ability to grow and expand” or something similar but it’s completely fair to say you don’t know or say that you have this plan in “ideal circumstances”. Stuff happens, and if a company can’t offer you promotions and such then they should expect that you probably won’t stay as long as a company that can offer those things.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        In addition to talking about staying in a position that fosters your own development, I would be sure to mention that you would want to be in the position where you can be most effective at serving your target population. You want them to know you don’t think it’s just about you.

  21. Christy*

    My toxic coworker spent 45 minutes of a one-hour meeting complaining about how he’s been treated. (Part of his complaints was that management is interfering with him getting a job elsewhere, and I agree with that–please just let him go!) 45 minutes. At least it was a phone meeting so he couldn’t see me roll my eyes?

      1. Engineer Girl*

        Managers can block employees from transferring if they are deemed critical to the program. I had that happen on one job assignment. I was horribly unhappy and yet the Sr manager (who hated me) would NOT let me transfer. At the same time he kept giving me mediocre performance reviews and low raises because he hated me. Look – if I’m that critical to the program that you can’t spare me then you better well give me a good performance review if I perform. If not, let me go!
        I can see where your coworker is coming from. That said, complaining doesn’t get you out.
        BTW I couldn’t get a new job at the time because I needed FMLA for a family member. I was stuck. I was finally rescued by a couple of other managers I had previously worked for.

  22. Folklorist*

    ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! Just go off and do that thing you’ve been putting off. You know the one. Or two. Or five. Then come back here and tell us about it! Now Go go go…

        1. Folklorist*

          It almost always is… ;-) I think that my problem is that I procrastinate by putting up Anti-Procrastination Posts and check back Way Too Often. It’s a particularly vicious cycle I’ve built for myself.

    4. oldfashionedlovesong*

      Transcribing a set of key informant interviews. I came into work today specifically promising myself I would get. them. done. I put them off for so long because my work won’t obtain any transcription or qualitative analysis software for me, so I’m literally having to listen to a recording in Windows Media Player a few sentences at a time and frantically type in Word. Then I’ll have to hand code and analyze. This is the worst. But I just finished one entire interview so I decided to reward myself with a few minutes in the open thread!

      1. Folklorist*

        Oh! I have something that might help. Have you tried O-Transcribe? It’s a free online transcription tool. You can drag and drop the recording file and listen to it while typing directly into the site’s field (no toggling between Word and WMP). It also has things so you can slow down or speed up the recording, push escape to stop the recording when you need to catch up (so you just key ‘esc’ instead of having to pause, use the mouse to click on something, then go back to what you’re doing), and keystrokes to mark timestamps from the recording into your text (that way you can go back to important points in the recording when you need to–makes for easier coding/analysis!) I’m a journalist and use this thing all the time (and no, they’re not paying me!)

    5. Aella*

      Yes. I will go and complete the competencies. (I am applying for multiple jobs within this organisation, so at least once I have the first set done, I can use them for other applications.)

        1. Folklorist*

          OMG! Do you live in the US? If so, where do you go to Ceilidhs? (Also, congrats on getting the competencies done!)

    6. Arjay*

      I didn’t do it today, but I’m gonna brag anyway. I finally made the appointment to get all the recall work, and some other maintenance, done on my old jalopy.

    7. KR*

      -We have a white board that we list all of our projects on and I have to redo it. It involves standing on my desk to reach it and it makes my arm cramp and I just don’t want to do it.
      -Going through my mail pile on my desk.
      -Setting up these old printers my boss came across and finding new homes for them. He wanted one of them to be for me but I really, really, really don’t want to have it sitting on my desk when I can just share one of the other rarely used printers to my laptop and use that one.
      -Disposing of this pile of old PCs in my office which involves powering them up and deleting everything that looks confidential and then taking them to surplus.
      -Cleaning and organizing in general. Our office is almost always a mess anyway and it’s part of my duty to organize and clean it when possible and I’ve just been dropping the ball here.
      God I have a procrastinating problem… lol

    9. Gandalf the Nude*

      Just ran and submitted all my post-payroll reports and rotated the potatoes for dinner tonight. (Pro tip: don’t bake 3 dozen potatoes in one afternoon.)

    10. Jules the First*

      Added membership numbers to the form I’ve been ignoring all day – now it’s ready for signatures. Thanks for the push!

    13. Sibley*

      Unfortunately, the thing I want to procrastinate will also take hours and hours…. of tedious, mind numbing data entry. And I’m working on it this afternoon :(

    14. Mallory Janis Ian*

      I scheduled a meeting between multiple busy people whose calendars don’t appear to have any common openings. I hate that kind of scheduling. Finally, I just identified a few likely times when the highest-ranking people were available, asked everyone else if they could move things around to accommodate the meeting, and FINALLY got it done.

  23. Sunflower*

    A manager in my department was fired. I don’t know much- just that she was struggling and there were questions of whether she fit into the org or not. I’m planning on reaching out to her and have been checking the AAM archives for appropriate wording but I’m having trouble with this part.

    Even though I’ve only been in my job 6 months and I didn’t work with her a ton, I really admired her. She’s bold and although she could be off-putting and brass sometimes, she kind of exemplified for me what it meant to take control and get sh*t done- something that I am really working at in my own career. We’d talked about her career and she was a big risk taker and I admired her ability to take on challenges and pick up and move anywhere in the world. I was hoping she would stick around for a while and maybe become sort of a mentor to me.

    I want to say these things but I’m worried it comes off kind of creepy? I’m so tempted to not mention it but putting myself in the shoes of a person who has just been let go, I’d imagine it would be a nice thing to hear. So how would you suggest wording it? I am actually thinking she might be a better resource now that we don’t work together as workplace politics won’t get in the way of us having honest conversations.

    1. Terra*

      “I know we only worked together for six months but in that time I came to really admire you. I liked that you were bold and knew how to take control and get stuff done which are skills I’m working on myself. I also admired your ability to take on risks and challenges in your career. I was wondering if you’d like to get coffee sometime, my treat? You can reach me at this email address or at 555-555-5555. Thanks!”

      I wouldn’t bring up the mentor thing until you get the chance to talk to her in person so you can see if it still feels right for lack of a better term as well as seeing how she seems to feel after being laid off. If you decide you don’t want her as an official mentor but as a friend or unofficial mentor that’s fine too and then you don’t need to backpedal. Good luck!

      1. Laura*

        This is the perfect wording for what to send her. You put the ball in her court and let her decide what’s best.

    2. Glod Glodsson*

      I don’t think that would be creepy at all as long as you don’t word it in a creepy way! Receiving such a positive note after being fired must be great :)

  24. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I interviewed for the gov job, an interviewer told me I did a great(!) interview and I’d hear back in 2 weeks. Now, it’s toward the very end of those 2 weeks. No word. I emailed the listing’s HR this morning to get a (polite) update to see if selections were made. Nothing yet….rrrrrrr.

    What’s the longest or shortest time someone’s heard back re: gov jobs? And how was the offer made? (Email? Phone?)

    I really wish the person hadn’t told me I did a great interview. Got my hopes up for no discernible reason. ***sigh*** >:/

    1. LawCat*

      About 1.5 months from interview to offer for federal job. Oral offer over the phone followed up by a letter.

      For state job, oral offer plus written offer given to me on the spot following a third interview. From first interview to third interview was about 2 months though. A little over one month between second interview and third interview. (The third interview really felt like more of a formality so they probably had decided after the second interview.)

    2. BRR*

      In general you should assume they won’t hit their timeline but it’s especially true for government jobs. Don’t worry, if they want to hire you they won’t forget about you.

    3. Kelley*

      Federal job 1: Applied in January, interviewed in March, offer came late April, started June 1.
      Federal job 2: Applied in August, interviewed in October, offer came late November, started December 15th.

    4. Former Retail Manager*

      Federal Here:
      –Can’t even remember when I applied (probably Sept.)
      –Interviewed in December
      –Offer in February, via telephone and later e-mail
      –Started in Mid-March

      Also Applied for an Intern Position with Local Government:
      –Applied in Sept/October
      –Interviewed in November
      –Offer via telephone in December
      –Stated in January

      In general, Government is just slow. I wouldn’t worry about the timeline too much. And also, if you don’t get it, and the job reopens, I would reapply. Government is funny that way. I was interviewed for my current position twice. Didn’t get hired the first round, but I did the second. They also had no knowledge of me the second round either, although that may differ depending upon he position you’re interviewing for and the size of the agency.

      Good luck! I hope you get it!

    5. Elle the new fed*

      In my experience for federal jobs (although most people I know had a shortened overall timeline) it was usually 2-3 weeks from final interview to verbal offer. The formal letter from HR took longer than the verbal.

    6. Joanna*

      It was for a graduate job which normally has a pretty long process, but I had one where I applied in March and interviewed in June. I think it was October when I finally got the rejection, which was delivered by a template email with a PDF of the interviewers blunt, obnoxious feedback.

  25. School Is My Job*

    Hi, all.

    I’m a masters-level student and I need to outline the “theoretical framework” I have chosen for this particular research. I have …. no idea. My undergrad did not cover theoretical approaches to anything and I feel like an idiot.

    I am reading other people’s papers with theoretical frameworks (and honestly usually gloss over them) but for my own work I am proposing more practical projects and it feels ridiculous to drag theory into it when I am talking about Things People Do.

    Can anyone explain the use of theoretical frameworks for more practical topics? Any suggestions of how to educate myself on this?

    1. TreeSilver*

      It depends a bit on your field, but there are ways in which theoretical frameworks are very helpful in applied settings. (Are you public health, by any chance?) Think of it as a structured set of thoughts and ideas and considerations that can be used as a foundation on which to build, a lens through which to view your work, or a build-in guide to how to evaluate it.

      E.g., if you were proposing to implement a new workflow for teapot production, you would want to say that you are using theoretical framework XYZ, which has been built on common workflow and environmental factors that affect teapot manufacture in general, and thus is applicable to your proposed project for reasons A, B, and C.

      1. School Is My Job*

        Thanks for the reply. I’m in information science. Some people’s work is very theoretical (e.g. “What is the nature of privacy in a public library space?” So they’re talking about Habermas and similar and it seems very natural) and mine is more like “How do people manage their ebook hold queue?”

        1. TreeSilver*

          Ah, Habermas…

          One thing that may help you is to make the distinction between grand theory and applied theory. Grand theory is more in the nature of abstract thinking and conceptualization of ideas in a way that describes larger systems of thought. Applied theory is more in the nature of something that connects to work in practice. From an information science perspective, something like the Technology Acceptance Model could be useful in that regard. Good luck.

        2. iSchool Grad*

          I’d look into information behavior topics. Wish I had my old notes with me right now, but some names I remember from my classes are David Ellis, Carol Kuhlthau, and Thomas Wilson. These particular researchers have more of an information seeking slant (that’s what I, as a librarian am more interested in) but I remember discussing different strategies for storing information in my Info Seeking Behavior course. For instance, the wikipedia article for Information Seeking Behavior briefly mentions “squirreling” behavior. Maybe do some research into information management?

          1. School Is My Job*

            Thanks for the response and the suggestions! I will look into those ideas and names.

        3. happypup*

          If you’re looking at ebook queues from a technology standpoint, I’ll second TreeSilver’s TAM recommendation, or there’s another similar model called UTAUT (unified theory of acceptance and use of technology). Part of how you’d use those is to figure out your hypotheses / what you expect to find out when you look at your data. So e.g. TAM suggests that how easy-to-use a user expects a given technology to be along with how useful they expect it to be are important in a user’s attitude toward using a given technology, but that those things are moderated by external variables — so you might use that to build a hypothesis that heavy readers are more likely to have a more positive attitude toward the ebook queuing function, because the perceived usefulness of that tool is much higher for those folks than people who don’t read as much.

          You might also look into some of the frameworks around personal information management, if your angle is less about the technology and more about how people manage the set of books/information/resources that they’re interested in.

          1. School Is My Job*

            Thanks for the comment and suggestions. It’s more of a behavioural approach than a technological one — TAM is a useful approach but I think your point about personal information management might be closer to the mark for the ebook example (not my actual project).

            What I am looking at is how people use a particular technology, but it’s more about the people than the tech, if you see what I mean.

            1. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

              “It’s more about the people than the tech”

              That sounds like a theoretical model! Now you just have to find out the name for this in your field ;)

            2. Joanna*

              Perhaps then you need to be drawing not so much on information management theories, but pulling in theories from social psychology and behavioural economics. Both disciplines tend to frequently look at how people making choices which could be applicable here.

        4. Joanna*

          For a question like that, if you’re required to get theory in there somehow, perhaps you can address not just the theories of your particular discipline but the theoretical approach driving your research methods. For example, depending how you conduct your research, it might be considered a Grounded Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounded_theory) approach.

    2. periwinkle*

      Doctoral student here, and I’m impressed that your masters program has you looking at theoretical frameworks!

      There are a multitude of theories revolving around behavior. Hmm. If you’re looking at how individuals manage their ebook hold queue, maybe we’re getting into theories about decision making. Or not. Can you give us a short description of your proposed research problem and research question(s)?

      Here’s an example of setting up the theoretical framework: my dissertation topic is looking at the intent of people in a certain field to use a solution-generating methodology that blends the use of published academic research with their existing professional knowledge and experience (evidence-based practice). In looking at the adoption – or rejection – of this methodology, some academics have framed their research around change management theories. I’m looking at the intent to adopt evidence-based practice through the framework of the theory of planned behavior, which posits that intent to behavior is a predictor of actual behavior and that intent is influenced by the person’s perception of the ease of use and the peer-group acceptance of the action as well as her own attitude toward that behavior.

      If you think that TAM is close to the mark, take a look at the diffusion of innovation theory which is often linked with TAM. My alternative theoretical framework choice was the perceived attributes of innovation, part of the DoI theory – a person’s willingness to adopt an innovation , such as an ebook queue, is based on her perception of characteristics of that innovation (such as how hard it is to use and can she try it out with messing up what she’s already using).

      1. School Is My Job*

        A belated ‘thanks’ for the reply! (I was not around a computer all weekend hence the late response.) I wish my program would TEACH us something about theoretical frameworks if they want us to write about them — I came out of an undergrad program with no theory at all so I am completely lost!

        My project isn’t about ebooks, that was just an example as to the practical nature of the topic as opposed to more theoretical topics some others have chosen. Mine is about how people use social media and navigate the risks and rewards of ‘real-name presence’ online.

    3. Dr. Doll*

      I did all my work in a totally applied, completely physical field, and did not understand the point of social theory until well after my doctorate, so don’t feel stupid! Finally what made it click was something completely unexpected: the priest at church said something about “Anselm’s theory of forgiveness” changing the way Christianity worked and behaved. And I finally got it that theory is like the glasses you see the world with, you explain things that happen based on what the theory predicts should happen.

      I still have trouble choking it down sometimes because compared to, say, cell theory or the theory of evolution, social theory still seems mushy and unsupported by consistent data, but that’s my own quirk.

      1. School Is My Job*

        Thanks for this. My undergrad contained no theory at all so I’m really lost when it comes up in grad school. (I keep saying that my goal is to get through two degrees without doing any Foucault!)

        It’s not even that I don’t think it’s important, it’s that I don’t entirely see its relevance in the face of practical questions/experiments.

        Sigh.

  26. Jessen*

    When uploading documents to an online job application, is it appropriate to include your cover letter in with your resume if there’s no separate place to upload it? Or should it be left off? If so, what’s a good way to highlight skills that might be too lengthy to highlight on the resume?

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      If there’s no way to include a cover letter, I just leave it off and assume that the employer doesn’t want one. (A lot of the time, there are other ways to attach more information.)

      1. Jessen*

        Usually I haven’t found much. I’m applying for low-level jobs and I’m in an area where I think I have qualifications that don’t show through easily on a resume, because what I do and what people would think I do based on my job title are two different things.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Can you tailor your resume to include more information that would show that your skillset shows what’s needed?

          1. Jessen*

            Not without making it really long for an entry level worker. I’m talking stuff like “learned multiple computer systems largely on my own” – not really resume stuff.

      2. Finman*

        I agree with Carlotte, if they wanted a cover letter they would ask for one. If you include a cover letter as the first page of your resume, you risk angering them by forcing a cover letter upon them.

        1. Hermione*

          I disagree. Why waste the opportunity to tell them things they can’t learn from your resume alone? I include my cover letter as the second page of a pdf – resume first, then cover letter.

    2. Kelly L.*

      I make it a single two-page PDF file. First page is my cover letter, second page is my resume.

    3. Liza*

      Absolutely appropriate to include the cover letter in with the resume if there isn’t a separate field for it. (The hiring manager usually has no control over whether the application system has a field for the cover letter. If they don’t want to see it, they can skip it, but if they do want to see it you’ll be putting yourself way ahead of the applicants who didn’t include one.)

  27. katamia*

    Anyone done a working holiday visa? I’m intrigued by the concept and would maybe like to apply for one, but I’m having trouble getting a good sense of what kind of jobs they’d be used for. I mean, can you get one and then just get a job as, say, a cashier or wait staff (jobs which citizens would be fully capable of doing)? What am I missing here?

    1. Jack K*

      I did it for farm work. It’s not intended for jobs requiring specialized skills — that’s what longer-term visas are for. Rather, it’s just what it sounds like: go work in a place for a while and get a taste of a different country.

      If you’re wondering what the host country gets out of this, typically people on working holiday visas will tack some travelling on and spend tourist money. And the country-country agreements are reciprocal.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks! That does help clarify things. I was a little confused because one of the countries I looked at was Australia, and apparently as a US citizen I can get a year-long visa, but I can only work for 6 months of it.

        1. Sunflower*

          My friend did one for Australia and she was a waitress. I had asked about this a while ago and I think someone said service industry is most likely the kind of job you’re looking at. I think you can get them for wineries too!

          1. katamia*

            Thanks! That was kind of the vibe I got, but I wasn’t sure if I was missing something.

          2. Rob Lowe can't read*

            I’m pretty sure can Sunflower is correct – a friend of mine (who is American) spent some time working at a winery in Western Australia. I’m not aware of any specialized permits she had for that job (but I could be wrong).

        2. Irishgal*

          Nurses use this a lot…work for 2 months solid, travel for 1-2, work again for 2 months type pattern.

        3. Jules the First*

          That’s why it’s a working holiday visa – they give you a limited time to work and then longer to enjoy the country. Most people show up for a few months and live off their savings, then do a few months work, usually in agriculture or hospitality, to earn enough money to keep travelling.

        4. Silver*

          In Australia you may end up doing temp work in offices, farm/seasonal work, service work (restaurants/bars) or as tour guides or sky instructors that kind of thing.
          One thing to be aware of is that some employers exploit people on working holiday visas like crazy. So you need to do your due diligence when considering employers and countries.

          There’s a whole industry here built around backpackers and their travelling needs just make sure to do your research before you arrive.

        5. Amy UK*

          My understanding was that you could work for the whole 12 months if you wanted, but only 6 months with any one employer. I did the Australian working holiday visa but didn’t end staying the whole year, but that was my plan.

          Your employer also had the option to decide to sponsor you, if they want to keep you more than 6 months. It happened to my sister (about 15 years ago, so the rules or employer’s willingness to do that might have changed).

    2. sarakg*

      I did one in Australia when I was in my mid-20s. I had 3 different jobs in different cities. One was related to my field, sort of, but was very part-time. One was on a really remote island fishing resort doing anything and everything (kitchen work, bar tender, selling bait, housekeeping, etc). The third was in a hostel with café attached, and I did housekeeping/airport pickups at the hostel and dishwashing/kitchen stuff at the café. I worked with citizens in all of these jobs, but also with other travelers. All the jobs were temporary and the last two I worked a certain number of hours a week in exchange for room/board and the rest for actual money. I don’t remember the details but there’s a maximum amount of time that I was allowed to stay in any one job. Most other travelers I met had similar jobs, or farm labour jobs. I did meet one person who got on with a temp agency doing office-type work, but I think that’s fairly unusual.

      1. Anonsie*

        This is a highly unhelpful comment but that’s all I can think whenever someone mentions the work holiday program. Cryyy

      2. Elle the new fed*

        The US does do this ? Generally for students on a gap year or recently college graduate. I’ve known people from Australia, New Zealand, the UK and Ireland who have come to the US on a working holiday of like 4-12 months. I myself (an American) took a working holiday visa in Canada so I assume there is a reciprocal there as well.

        Where are you from? That may be why the US doesn’t have the option.

        1. Anonsie*

          I’m from the US. All the places I want to go have reciprocal agreements with each other, but not the US.

      3. katamia*

        It does, though! Only with a few countries, though–Australia, New Zealand, and Ireland all have working holiday visas for US citizens. *also a US citizen*

        1. Anonsie*

          Yeah, versus the whole of the working holiday program. The places I want to go are all part of the overall program but not in agreement with the US :(

          1. Not Karen*

            I sympathize. I really want to do a working holiday in Japan but that’s not an option for US citizens.

    4. Ellie*

      I went to New Zealand (I’m from the UK), and spent around 6 months working and the other 6 months travelling around. I worked in a a backpacker hostel as a manager (where I was paid) and in a different hostel as a cleaner for bed and board. I also joined a temp agency and worked in a short term call centre for a couple of months, and at least 80% of the others there were backpackers like me. It was completely expected and normal and I’ve known people who have done all kinds of jobs on these visas.

      1. Ellie*

        These jobs were all at different times by the way. Work for a while, travel around, run out of money, then work again!

  28. oldfashionedlovesong*

    I work in public health and this spring I am supervising an intern for the first time. She didn’t have very clear interests when she came in, which was fine, so my supervisor and I devised a few interesting (to our department) projects and she chose one. I think I can be an overly critical person sometimes, so I almost hesitate to trust my own judgment on this, but I’ve settled on an overall impression of her as a bit flaky and not too engaged. She works half her 16 hours a week from home per her request (because of her class schedule, which we haven’t actually seen but took her word for) but always has to be reminded to send the weekly update email we decided she would send each Sunday evening.

    The most egregious thing happened this past week though. We set a deadline for the first half of her project to be completed last Tuesday so I could review it while she was on spring break this week. She didn’t have it done by last Tuesday; I asked her if she needed help, and she said no, she just needed time, so I said she could finish it at home and send it by that Friday. This Monday came and it wasn’t in my inbox, so I sent a reminder. It’s Friday now, the project is a week late, and I still have no response from her. I just know next Sunday or Monday I’ll get another “I’m sorry [insert some excuse here related to midterms and spring break] but I’ll have it to you on x date a few days from now I promise.”

    I know midterms can be a lot to deal with, and she’s on break this week, but none of this is how I would have behaved as an undergraduate intern, especially as a graduating senior who has to successfully complete this internship to graduate. I have taken my concerns about her lack of engagement and late update emails to my supervisor before, but she didn’t seem to think they were that big of a deal. After that, I don’t know whether to let my supervisor know the project was never turned it. So what would you do, how would you respond, and would you set different expectations going forward? Would you be honest on the evaluation you have to complete of her, or would you just let the behaviours slide if she more or less gets the work done in the end (which I think is my supervisor’s way of doing things).

    1. Ad Astra*

      Well, for her sake, I think you ought to say something about how she’s not meeting your expectations. The sooner you do that, the better shot she’ll have at turning things around. She really should know better than to turn in a project a week late, but interns tend to have weird knowledge gaps about stuff that most working professionals think is obvious. The point of an internship is to learn all that stuff you’re supposed to know when you enter the working world.

      Do you think she’s failed as an intern, or do you just have some criticisms about her performance? That answer should guide how you evaluate her, since your evaluation probably determines whether she passes or fails the internship portion of her degree program. I wouldn’t lie to protect someone who’s clearly not fit to work in my field, but I also wouldn’t want to be the reason a “needs some work, but she’ll get there” intern didn’t graduate. Certainly, a ding for responsiveness and reliability would be appropriate.

      1. Anxa*

        I see a lot of comments about inexperienced people not knowing what professional norms are, but I think sometimes they (we?) are afraid of being too formal.

        Most working environments are far more relaxed than schools are. Many instructors will say they won’t chase you down for homework, but they often do follow up and express some sort of frustration.

        I wonder if she thinks this is just a really lax environment, and is thus prioritizing her responsibilities where punctuality, follow-through, and communication are more clearly valued and explicitly required.

        1. Ad Astra*

          I think that’s definitely possible. When I was in college, I absolutely managed my time based on what I could get away with turning in late and what I couldn’t. Between classes, my sorority, campus organizations, internships, off-campus jobs and my student media job, I literally did not have the time (or at least the energy) to do every single task or assignment that came my way. didn’t have the time or energy to do literally every task or assignment I was asked to do — so I figured out what I could let slip and what was nonnegotiable. It wouldn’t be too crazy for a college student to interpret “laid-back environment” to mean “laid-back deadlines” and prioritize accordingly.

          1. Anxa*

            This is why I think you’re right in that it’s time to mention the expectations to the intern.

      2. TootsNYC*

        “Well, for her sake, I think you ought to say something”

        For her sake. Definitely. Say something. That’s what internships are about.

        Also, explain the WHY of why it’s a problem for you. You had set aside time in your schedule; you planned to do something; you have other things on your mind and this is taking away that energy.

        Lay it out for her.

        I think a lot of students thinkt hat deadlines are sort of arbitrary, or just to prove that they will follow orders.

        I told my kids that when they’re late to class, they distract the teacher, interrupt her train of thought, make her feel like she needs to back up and repeat stuff, adn that takes away instruction and progress from the other students. They distract the students, everybody else loses. Not just them.
        it really made them try to be on time.

    2. Glod Glodsson*

      In my experience about half of the interns I’ve mentored show this kind of behaviour. I think they simply have NO IDEA about workplace norms. They don’t take the work seriously or whatever. I once had to tell an intern she could not app me at 3 in the morning to say she wouldn’t come in the next day because she was sick, that she had to follow procedure. When she came back to work she told me that she complained about me to her father and that he, in turn, told her off for her bad ethics. That was so weird :D
      I always tell interns that this kind of behaviour will work against them once they enter the professional field and explain what kind of consequences their flakiness had. In the end, I think interns are there to learn so this is part of the package. Usually though, it’s not super effective. I just hope that they might remember my advice when they’ve entered the workforce.

        1. Glod Glodsson*

          Yes, getting fired is a harsh way to learn a lesson but I can’t help but think for some of them that’ll be the only way a real job will play out!

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      If this is the mid-point of her internship, I think it would be a great time to do a “Mid-Year Review” with her. I would outline the problem and your proposed solutions to finish the internship strong.

      Definitely let your supervisor know that the work was not turned in and that you are planning to have a conversation about your expectations. Just letting it go as long as the work eventually gets done is not helping you or the intern. This is the kind of job behavior that would get someone put on a PIP!

      Finally, I would ask her to bring in her class schedule so you can talk about her hours. My internship (from the school side) would not have counted if I wasn’t in the office.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Totally agree with this. Treat her like a regular employee with a performance review and consequences if she doesn’t meet objectives.

    4. Terra*

      I wouldn’t worry about not having seen her school schedule (unless your company requires it for some reason). Generally I’d say requiring it is too hand-holdy for someone in college, especially if you agreed to her working part-time from home without seeing it. Focus on the flakiness and tell her, flat out, what’s wrong. If this is the first time you’re bringing it up you can always frame it more as “you need to do this because otherwise it makes you look bad/will affect my future reference” but it’s also perfectly acceptable to say “you need to have things submitted by the deadline in the future or we’ll need to let you go.”

    5. Callie*

      I’m in education and part of my job is working with student teachers, so I see this a lot. I think that in the future you should not allow interns to work from home. Part of the point of an internship is to get used to the culture of a work place and interact with professionals in the field, as opposed to being a student. They need to shift from a “student” identity to a “professional” identity and that is hard to do when they aren’t physically at the job.

      I would be very honest with her about your expectations and your evaluation of her work. I would also let her know that these types of internships are a good way to get references for jobs… but only if the work is done well, and her work to this point would not warrant a stellar recommendation from you. I had to have this conversation with one of the student teachers I supervise this term and it was very uncomfortable–but after that, he really shaped up and is doing well.

      Does the student have a university supervisor of some sort? I would definitely bring this up with the supervisor if there is one.

    6. Lady Kelvin*

      I’d agree with most of the commenters, but I’l also make it clear that if she doesn’t start turning things on time you will not be able to give her a passing grade for her internship. Make it clear that the projects you give her are no different than projects for her classes, and they will not be accepted late.

      1. Nanc*

        This! They are being graded and a failing grade is like getting fired for poor performance. I once had to fire an intern. He blamed me because he had to go to school one more term in order to graduate and said we had no structure to our internship program. Funnily enough, all of the other interns we hired with him were quite successful as they took direction and coaching (and did things like show up on time and follow the dress code). The kicker: he put me down as a reference while he was trying to get another internship.

    7. MsMaryMary*

      I suggest having a detailed status review on her project. “I’ll get it to you next week” is not a status, I’m thinking to have her bring inneverything she has so you can see how far along she actually is. Has she made good progress, or is she barely started? Is this a time management issue, or a skillset issue, or a knowledge issue?

      Then I think you have specific project-related things to give her feedback on, as well as resetting expectations. I suspect she thinks there’s more flexibility in your deadlines than her school work and is prioritizing accordingly.

    8. Christian Troy*

      My experiences in public health are a bit negative in the sense that I think people let a lot of stuff go that would not be normal in other fields. I think also for undergraduate interns, there is a sense of casualness about the process because they’re still in school and the idea is to give them skills but not ride them into quitting or PIP (like in a job).

      So I think you need to talk to your supervisor and get on the same page when it comes to what happens next. You shouldn’t tell her she’s getting a negative eval if she’s not really going to and you can’t come down hard if your supervisor has different ideas about interns. Just my thoughts…

    9. Sunflower*

      So I have never in all my years of schooling from K-undergrad asked for an extension on a project/paper. Apparently people do and it’s granted to them. So I wonder if your intern is thinking that pushing off this deadline is totally acceptable since ‘school comes first’. The hard thing to realize going from school to workplace is that your projects don’t just affect you. Turning in a paper later is for sure a hassle for the teacher and not always possible for many reasons but it’s not like ‘I need your paper so Jane can do X so then Xavier can complete Y’. I think now is a good time to sit down and set out your expectations.

      Also is this a required internship for this person? I’m wondering if they have an internship requirement and that’s how she’s viewing this as opposed to something she’s actually interested in.

      1. Anxa*

        “The hard thing to realize going from school to workplace is that your projects don’t just affect you.”

        This is one of the reasons why I failed as a student. By the time I was in college, my jobs mattered more to me than getting my assignments in. How could I prioritize my own homework when that didn’t affect other people? (of course, it DID, because my low GPA has hurt my family now).

        1. Elle the new fed*

          This was so true to me as well. Well, the job prioritization and the fact I just didn’t like school. But the lower GPA is not doing me any favors now that I want to go back to grad school. Sigh.

          1. Anxa*

            I’m pretty much stuck. I’m tutoring. If I want a ‘promotion’ I’d have to be an adjunct. Only I can’t get into grad school.

            This wouldn’t be so bad, except everyone I’m meeting now doesn’t seem to understand why I’d want to take a less ambitious path that doesn’t fit my passions and talents as well. I’m academically much more mature (also helped that I figured out I may have ADHD / anxiety / a sleep disorder and have worked on that to the best that I can for now), and seem to be guiding more toward those positions without realized grad school is NOT an option right now (or at least, not something I can gamble on with the cost of application fees).

            I’m actually trying to temper some of my enthusiasm for aspects of jobs that require more schooling to advance and downplay some of my skills to avoid getting ‘tracked’ that way.

    10. oldfashionedlovesong*

      Thanks to everyone for their super helpful replies! I ended up taking it to my supervisor and explaining my concerns and she took it seriously, if still a bit casually. We’ve emailed her that we are concerned about the status of the project as she enters the second half of her internship and offering our support to catch up, and also asked if she would like to set up a meeting with her internship coordinator at school for some support if she’s having trouble meeting deadlines. Kind of a friendly warning I suppose. I know it’s a more passive approach than most of you have suggested, but that was my supervisor’s preference so I went along with it.

      I will probably speak to her in person when she is back next week to lay down lines a bit closer to some of what you’ve described, being clear that this is as high a priority as her schoolwork since it is a requirement for graduation, that her late work impacts others (namely, myself!), and that this kind of thing won’t fly when she enters the workplace. Depending on my supervisor we may also revisit her work from home capability. (This is all a bit muddy because I am the intern’s technical expertise supervisor but as a consultant to the department, I can’t be her administrative supervisor– my supervisor is her supervisor on paper. So I don’t get final say on how we handle these kinds of issues). I am also planning to write about the late assignments and lack of engagement in her end of term evaluation. Thanks again all!

  29. Jimmy Jack Funk*

    I have been working at my career for almost 20 years now, and I have never been giving the opportunity to be in a leadership/management role. Although, I have always been promoted due to my experience and expertise, someone else always ends up in positions of authority. People I have worked with say it’s because I go with the flow, am not loud enough, and don’t challenge things or argue. I didn’t know this is what I needed to do to get ahead. Every time i have tried to be more authoritative and confident, it has totally backfired. Any thoughts?

    1. Terra*

      It’s not necessarily about being loud or arguing, although some people do it that way, in my experience it’s more about being the person who takes charge. Do you see things that need to be done? Could you reasonable start doing them? If yes then do it. If you’re worried about credit (which is valid if you want a promotion) you can casually tell your boss “hey, I noticed X needed done so I started working on it, just a heads up”. If you can’t do them but think they need done then take it to your manager or someone in the department that should handle it and say “I noticed X isn’t getting done which affects Y. Could someone start doing that?” If you can provide them with a breakdown of what needs to be done for X then even better. People who get promoted into leadership are the people who either fix a problem or bring a problem up with a proposed solution.

    2. Newbie*

      Is there anyone in your company in a leadership/management role that you respect and could approach about being a mentor for you? A mentor that is already in a role you aspire to could help provide tools, techniques, and resources for how you could work toward acquiring or enhancing the skills it takes to ascend to a leadership/management role in your company.

    3. BRR*

      Have you tried applying to any leadership jobs? You say they haven’t been given the opportunity but have you gone after them?

    4. Sadsack*

      Have you communicated to your manager that you are interested in moving into a management or supervisory position? Ask about a development plan to do this?

  30. Squirrel*

    As a way to try to get a new career, I have decided to get a certificate, specifically in business analytics. Is it really that easy to get a job in something, just because you have a certificate? I’m also hoping to find some sort of technical writing program so I can get additional education in that. I have practical experience in procedural writing and I really enjoyed it (and I love the ideas behind business analytics, and would like to qualify myself as someone who has a the kind of mind to excel at it), but I am hesitant to devote resources to these things if they won’t actually help me solidify a career, or at the very least expand my job options. But it looks like, just from cursory research into the topics, that I could actually be successful in finding jobs with these skills/education and start an actual career.

    I’ve just been going from job to job, with no actual goal, so this is very exciting for me. I guess I’m just looking to see what people’s experience has been in a similar situation, or if I have my head in the clouds…

    1. Wendy Darling*

      I’d want to hear about the placement rate of the certificate program before I paid money for it. You want to know how many of their graduates not only get hired within X months, but get hired in a job related to the certificate. They’re doing business analytics, so they should definitely have those numbers.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If you had some related work experience (reporting, IT, research, or accounting) then I could see this as a natural transition that would help you. It would be hard to go from a receptionist position to an analyst role, but if it is something that interests you, that should be the real reason to pursue it.
      When I was considering different certificates, I went to job boards to search for them to see if they were included in any job ads. That will tell you if it is a cert that employers find important.

  31. Librarian*

    Is there any polite way to fend off small talk or is the problem with me?

    Often we have different shifts come in to work. I make a little chit chat and then get to work. We are entering the busy period for our library. We will often have bursts of customers and then a few minutes of calm. Although I am very friendly, often I look forward to the quiet periods to catch up on email and other stuff. Inevitably one of my coworkers likes to keep asking me questions, about my weekend, posts he saw on facebook etc. I have told him that I am busy but he keeps on asking. Sometimes they are the same questions he just asked!

    I want him to come to me with any work related questions, but his chit chat is driving me mad. So should I just get over it or is there a nice way to tell him, in no uncertain terms that I am busy?

    1. Collie*

      “I love chit chatting, but it’s really cutting into my work time and I need to limit it. I have to get to working now, but let’s catch up after work later!” Or leave out that last clause if you don’t want to do that. :)

    2. Tomato Frog*

      Use the name you go by! I do, and it’s only made my life easier. I have several coworkers who were assigned email addresses that have their legal names who are jealous of me because my email has the name I actually go by. It is confusing for people emailing them and has caused problems!

  32. Collie*

    Job applications, resumes, and cover letters — if your given name is Katharine but you go by Kathy, what do you use on application materials?

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      For application, I’d put my legal name. For resume, etc. I would use my preferred name.

      1. Judy*

        That’s what I do. My resume, cover letter, linkedin all say “Judy”. Any application form says “Judith”.

    2. Christy*

      Kathy. My given name is Christina, but I’m called Christy. It goes on everything to set the expectation.

        2. Megs*

          It’s odd to me that so many comments on that post are all “but your employer needs your legal name for paychecks etc” as if that’s a reason to put your legal name on your resume or cover letter. I’ve never had a job that handed me all the pre-hire paperwork and had to correct it because they auto-filled information from a resume. Put your legal name on your direct deposit paperwork, put the name you want people to call you on your application materials (if you want – a lot of people in my field don’t).

          Side note, I am jealous of people who go by their middle name I’d love to stick something like “R. Sarah Jamison” on top of a resume. Maybe that’s a lawyer thing but I think it looks neat.

      2. Christy*

        And as a side note, my coworkers still spell Christy wrong. I sign every email Thanks, Christy. I’ve given up on that front.

          2. hermit crab*

            For a while we had a Christine, a Christie, and a Kristin. They all sat in the same little area. And two of the three had the same supervisor (who also managed someone named Kristy, who was in a different location). And yet, somehow, everyone managed to spell their names correctly. Your coworkers have no excuse!

        2. Kelley*

          Right there with you. Kell-E-Y. It’s right there in my email address, in my signature block. But yeah, spell it however *you* want.

    3. Fabulous*

      I’d recommend ‘Katharine “Kathy” Smith’ on your resume, but in an application you fill out, put Kathy.

      1. Aella*

        I have a name problem! I am currently getting ready to change my surname by deedpoll, but it won’t happen until well into next month, as I’m still getting all my ducks in a row. When should I bring this up on application forms? My instinct is not to do it until I have the deedpoll in my hands, but might potential employers feel a little blindsided? Should I warn them if called for interview?

      2. Betty (the other Betty)*

        That’s what I do: Elizabeth “Betty” Lastname.

        Especially since otherwise people want to call me Liz, or Beth, or one of the 20-something other nicknames for Elizabeth, which are all fine names but not MY name.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I would put Katharine down. If you’d like, maybe sign your cover letter Kathy. Or, when you go in for the interview, you can say “Call me Kathy.”

    5. Seal*

      I’ve gone by a nickname that’s not an obvious derivative of my given name since childhood (i.e. I go by Seal, but my given name is Rachel). To avoid confusion and potential awkward conversations, I always use my nickname when applying for jobs and on my CV. I’ve discovered that some places include a place to enter your “preferred” name as well as your legal name, which is very helpful. When it comes time to do paperwork or for someone else make plane reservations on my behalf, I make a point of telling them what my given/legal name is so the paperwork is filled in correctly. I’ve found that it’s far less awkward to do it that way than to have to explain after I’ve been introduce by my given name I do not in fact want to be called that.

    6. Anxa*

      There’s almost always a section of an application for the background check where you can give any alternative names you had.

      1. Packers Fan*

        I’m a Katherine who goes by Katie but my legal and licensed name (I’m in he healthcare field and in medical records) is Katherine. For that reason I tend to put Katherine and just tell people I go by Katie.

  33. Over Development*

    So excited! Next week is my last week of work at the awful job!

    I feel like a kid when summer break is on the horizon!

  34. Mona Lisa*

    Ok, so what would you guys do in this situation?

    I’m currently working for an academic institution in a field unrelated to my degree while my husband pursues an advanced degree at the same place. I decided to use my employee education credit to take a course related to administration in my degree field, and while it’s clear now that the 100 level class is well below where I need to be, I’m trying to stick it out. We have an upcoming assignment in April where we’re supposed to create resumes and hand them into the young grad student teaching the course for review. This shouldn’t be a problem for me because I’ve read so many AAM posts about resumes and successfully navigated my way to several different positions, right?

    Well, the rubric is calling for some pieces that go against what I’ve learned here over the past few years. The assignment requires us to put objectives and reference contact information (Is this even a thing?) on the resumes. I’m not so worried about mine–I can alter what I’ve got to make it fit the guidelines for this assignment–, but what I feel guilty about are the 18-20-year-olds who are learning about resume writing for the first time and are being given this poor advice. I know objectives aren’t technically wrong (just outdated), but I’ve never heard of putting contacts directly on your resume.

    Bad college career center advice is a frequent topic here, but I don’t know if anyone has had a chance to correct it or stop it from happening in real time. Has anyone else been in a situation like this? If so, how did you handle it? I’ve considered talking to the instructor about it, but I’m not entirely sure he’s the one who developed the assignment since he’s being overseen by a professor. Any advice is appreciated!

    1. Collie*

      If there’s a natural opening in class, bring AAM up as an additional resource. “Oh, this issue was discussed on AAM. I won’t try to explain it all here, but the gist of the post was X. They have a lot of great advice on professional life there in general.” And leave it up to other students to check it out from there.

    2. motherofdragons*

      I haven’t heard that it’s huge no-no to put references w/ contact info on a resume. I landed a few of my past jobs using a resume with both an objective and reference contact info, and my most recent job offer came from a resume with the contact info on it.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Don’t do that! References don’t go on your resume — they’re taking up space better used for other things, you don’t want them being contacted willy-nilly without your knowledge, and it’ll look a little … unsophisticated is the best word, I guess.

        Keep in mind that “I got a job when I did X” doesn’t mean that X is the best thing to do :)

        2. Another Academic Librarian*

          Unless you’re applying to academic positions! I would look askance at an applicant who did not list the names and contact info of their references at the end of their CV.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Can you talk to the TA after class and say, “Hey, this stuff actually goes against current norms and will actually reflect badly on people if they do this. Here are some links that talk about it more.”

      1. Laura*

        Bingo. The TA needs to know what is happening in the “real world,” AKA outside of academia.

      2. Mona Lisa*

        Possibly. My issue is that I typically have to skip out immediately after class since I’m hourly and have to clock back in at my building across campus. I might be able to see if he’d be willing to meet with me privately after work hours or something. I can see where this conversation would be better in person, but would it be terribly off-base to send it over e-mail?

  35. Wendy Darling*

    I got a new job! I got an offer on Tuesday right after I read a bunch of stuff about how women are underpaid in tech partly because they don’t try to negotiate salary, so I decided to negotiate and threw out a number a little above what I actually wanted assuming they’d talk me down.

    They didn’t talk me down — I got a 10% salary hike by ASKING ONE TIME.

    I feel like a total badass right now. Also the start date is PERFECT because it’s a week after a small trip I’d planned so I don’t have to worry about canceling or shortening that. Sweet!

    5. motherofdragons*

      Internet high five for getting the job and negotiating like a boss!! Uncanny – I also got a job offer the same night, after doing similar research :)

    7. Jubilance*

      Congrats, that’s awesome! Do you mind sharing the script you used? Like did they call and say “The position pays X” and you said “Well actually I’d like Y”? I’m so curious how I should frame this – I’ve never negotiated salary before and I’m still unsure and a bit afraid about what I should say.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        Step 1: Have a facebook friend link this article. Get mad. Immediately after, get job offer. Ask for a few days to think it over/discuss with partner/look over benefits info. Ask if salary is firm. (Her answer was “It’s pretty firm but if you’re not happy with it I can talk to my VP.” So the door is open a crack here.) Stay mad about existence of salary gap.

        Step 2: Search AAM. Read this post. Also find a link to this reddit post and read it too. Yep, still really mad about salary gap. I’m pretty reserved about asking for stuff normally, but now I’m sort of all HULK NEGOTIATE SALARY.

        Step 3: Make a spreadsheet. Put in all regular expenses as calculated by my bank’s mint.com-style budgeting thingie. Subtract them from monthly takehome pay. See how much is left over for lattes and dog classes and fancy dinners and movie tickets.

        Step 4: Do job offer evaluation with payscale.com. Decide it is worth asking for more money. Figure out a number that would make me happy with the outcome of step 3. Evaluate that number for sanity. Determine a number that is still sane but a little above what I actually want, so they can talk me down to my real number. (If you’re not an analyst with a compulsive research problem you can probably skip this and also some/all of 3, really.)

        Step 5: Email hiring manager. This is the actual text of my email, with some identifying info removed:

        “Hi Lucinda!

        Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me, and for sending me the benefits info — that PDF is really helpful.

        I’m very excited about your offer, so I’m willing to be flexible, but I was hoping for a salary closer to (insert number about 10% over their original offer). I think I can bring a lot to Teapots Inc with my experience evaluating teapot performance and improving processes, and I’m looking forward to digging in.

        Please feel free to call or email me.

        Thanks!
        Wendy Darling”

        Step 6: Drop the mic. (I’m exceptionally bad at this part, if you can’t tell.)

        The hiring manager called me a few hours later and agreed to the salary I asked for. I expected her to counter with something between the original offer and my counter. She did not.

        Step 7: PARTY HARD.

        1. CM*

          This is great, I love how straightforward you were in your email. And I really like the idea of negotiating via email instead of phone/in person, which is how I’ve had these conversations in the past. I’ll have to remember this if I ever need it for a new job. Thanks!

          1. Wendy Darling*

            I get SUPER flustered on the phone even moreso than in person, and she’d just emailed me with a bunch of benefits info the day before, so I went ahead and did it via email because it’s in my comfort zone and it’s easier for me to shut up.

        2. Jubilance*

          OMG how awesome! And thank you for so super detailed! I’m totally copying this and putting it in my Evernote under “life references”. So glad it worked for you!

        3. Jen*

          Agree x100. I negotiated an extra 5k starting bonus (double the offer) once. I was also once offered a role at 75k (well over what j was making at the time and would have happily worked for that!) but asked for 90- the hiring manager didn’t outright say but talked up the job to be much closer to that range. They came back with 88 and I did a snoopy dance!

          I also negotiated a big increase in severance package…I did that through a lawyer since I was absolutely shocked/gutted and extremely bitter about the layoff (it was super shady and my entire 18 person department threw me a goodbye party paid for out of their own pockets, three people went to HR to protest, and two went to tears in front of me telling me “if only they had worked harder” I wouldn’t have lost my job. And 3/4 of my fellow executive team (I was on an e-team of 5) had no idea and all called me after to say they had no idea and they’d help me get a new job ASAP).

          So- it can be done!!!

      1. Wendy Darling*

        If I had known people would give me several thousand extra dollars just for asking, I’d ask more often.

  36. just sad*

    A few years ago I lost my father, I was out of work for a week. When I got back to work 2 of my coworkers (teammates) gave me a card and bag of tootsie rolls (they knew tootsie rolls are my favorite and would brighten my day) anda pretty basic card from company signed only with company name. My father wasn’t always around, and I pretty much didn’t have a close relationship with him. I not a particularly open person at work but nice gestures are always appreciated. Another co-worker just lost her brother earlier this week, and on yesterday my supervisor sent around a sign up sheet asking people to donate dinners that can be frozen and she wanted them by today so she could deliver them. Since it’s such short notice, I told another co-worker I would donate a few dollars to a dish they are planning on preparing. Anyway I can’t help but feel sad that nobody thought to at least send around the card for me when my father passed. It almost seemed like a hurried after thought, when they realized I was returning back that day, because my boss’s boss was the one who gave me the card. I don’t want to take away from my coworkers loss because I understand. I just wish the same consideration was given to me. I know I’m picking an old wound.

    1. ReddWicked*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. We had a similar situation here at my job when my colleague’s father passed. He was a very private person, and he made it known he was a private person. Because of that, people felt like they were doing the right thing by not making a huge acknowledgement of it, but he noticed when someone else got a different treatment. I feel like no one ever really knows what to do when trying to support someone who has experienced a death.

    2. Dawn*

      That sucks that the old wound is bothering you. I think death at the office is such a hard thing to navigate because everyone has different situations/attitudes towards death and is dealing with it in their own way.

      When my father died last August I told the President and the CEO (who I report to) and didn’t tell anyone else at the office, and was a bit annoyed when I got back that they had told some of the people that I worked with because then I got the “Oh we’re so sorry, how are you doing, how is your mom doing?” questions. I know they were coming from a good place, but oh my god I did NOT want to talk about it with the people I worked with and I would have been… mortified/livid if someone passed a sympathy card around. It was/is my pain and it is a very very private pain that I do not want to talk about with ANYONE other than my husband and my mom/brothers.

      Ten million hugs to you!

    3. ThatGirl*

      I understand. All of my grandparents have died in the time I’ve been working here, and when I took time off, what I got when I came back has varied wildly – once I got a lovely card from my department, once I got a few individual cards and some chocolate, and most recently I got a few sympathetic e-mails but no card whatsoever (though to be fair, that was right before Christmas).

      I know it can sting, but I feel like it just depends on random timing, who’s organizing, and how much they think the person in question needs.

    4. some1*

      I know exactly what you are going through – I lost my mom less than a month ago. There’s no imagining or describing the grief and how it manifests in ways you would never expect. I, too, have similar feelings about people in my life who I expected more from during this time and didn’t get it.

    5. Beth*

      I’ve seen this from a different perspective where I work, over time the team becomes better at what they do including acknowledging other people’s major life events, so I’d see it more as them trying to do better than they did for you which is actually a good thing and not intended to hurt you at all

    6. just sad*

      thanks guys for your comments. It’s really helping me deal with it. I agree people’s feelings varies when it comes to dealing with death. I think since I am so private a work, I think they thought it was best. When my father died, I was just hurting and was unsure of my feelings as well since we weren’t that close. Thanks again.

    7. Seal*

      So sorry for your loss. When my father passed away a decade or so ago, I was very hurt that no one save my boss and one coworker from the organization where I had worked for almost 20 years offered condolences. This was very much not the norm for our place; a death someone’s family was usually met with an outpouring of sympathy. It turned out that my boss, who had become increasingly distant, lazy and nasty over the previous 9 months, felt “it wasn’t his place” to share such news about an employee who was well-known, liked and respected throughout the organization. That was the last straw for me with this a-hole; I wound up leaving 3 months later. To this day that incident is still incredibly painful to talk about.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I wonder if maybe this process is just a little better organized now? It’s possible they didn’t have their ducks in a row on it when you lost your dad. For which, by the way, please accept my condolences. *hug*

      1. De Courcy*

        So sorry for your loss. This kind of situation really can be so hard. There isn’t a good way to address it with them, and I wish you had gotten the same kindness as your coworkers, so I hope you have a good friend you could ask to give you a little extra comfort and attention to make up for it.

  37. ReddWicked*

    I work in Higher Education Administration. In my particular field, interviews are usually a 2 – day long process where you meet with about 15 different individuals. (Potential co-workers, students, administration, the list goes on!) Having to send an e-mail out to everyone and remember conversations you had with people is a long and tedious process. Now that I am actually in the field and have been on the hiring side, I’d say about 15% of people actually go through the process of researching everyone’s e-mail, and sending individual thank you letters out. What do you all think? Necessary or nah?

    1. So Very Anonymous*

      I’m on a search committee now (also higher ed). We just finished our first round interviews and I was a little surprised that none of the candidates sent thank-you emails. I always do, and feel anxious if I don’t, so now I’m wondering, too.

    2. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I did it for my higher ed interviews (two)…it was a pain, but luckily about 80% of the folks gave me their business cards and the interviews were grouped by team.

      I’m honestly surprised by the number of people in general who don’t send thank you notes!

    3. Laura*

      I work in higher ed. When I interviewed, there was no way I could have sent thank-yous to every person I met. I didn’t even know how to spell my now-boss’s last name. All the interviews were arranged by an office assistant who I’ve never met. So I actually didn’t send any thank-yous at all, and I still got the job. From talking to my work partner, it seems like they cared most about the candidates’ interview performance, not about whether or not a note was sent.

    4. Terra*

      Not in higher ed but have been through interviews with large groups/panels before. If these cases I usually send a thank you to the main person I’ve been in contact with (HR, hiring manager, whoever) and ask them to thank Sue, Mary, and Kim for me. If I had a particularly strong interaction with one of them I’d probably do some research to find and email them specifically but since most big interviews prevent close one-on-one connections almost by design it seems appropriate to send a group thanks to someone I can reasonably expect to pass it on and whom I do usually have a stronger connection with.

    5. Newbie*

      I work in higher ed and have always sent thank you notes. When meeting with committees, I often send one note that addresses the meeting with that group. If I then also meet with specific individuals one-on-one, they each receive a personal thank you. If you’re doing an open forum/presentation to a large group, I don’t think that requires a thank you (for high-level administrative positions, we often have candidate forums that are open to all employees and/or students).

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        This is what I do. First-round interviews (usually a panel interview over phone or Skype) I send an email to all the members of the group. Day-long interviews, one email to committee group, individual emails for one-on-ones and to anyone I’d spent extra time with (for example, people I’d talked with at dinner the evening before). I usually use my thank-you notes to amplify or clarify something I’d said that’s relevant to my qualifications for or interest in the position. I don’t think they’re crucial, and I’m not judging people who don’t do them — it’s just something I feel very conditioned to do, and to me it feels uncomfortable not to send them.

        1. So Very Anonymous*

          I should add that at both levels of interviewing I’m usually given a list of the people who are interviewing me for the first round of interviews, and an itinerary for the day-long interview which includes the names and positions of the people I’ll be talking with. I’m waiting to hear if I made the second round for a position, and I was surprised that they didn’t provide me with the names/positions of the people who were doing the first interview — I had to work between my chicken-scratch notes from the interview and their staff list to be sure I had the right names for sending the thank-you email.

    6. Kelly L.*

      My first instinct is against researching people you didn’t spend much time with–it feels kind of “call and find out the hiring manager’s name”-y to me, and I also think it’s all too possible to end up sending the email to the wrong person anyway. Say you meet someone just in passing, she just says her name’s Mary, there turn out to be three Marys in the department…which one did you meet? I may be off base here–just spitballing.

      What I always did was thank whoever I’d been corresponding to in the first place, along with anybody who gave me their card, which were usually the same people who I spent more time with and who were more important.

    7. Been on Both Sides*

      I don’t remember what I did exactly, but in my field, it’s pretty much impossible to catch everyone’s names with so many of the interviews conducted in groups.

      Even at the institutions where the assistant or hiring contact prepares you an itinerary that lists the names of the people you will be meeting, there are often a lot of changes and inaccuracies. Just because 5 people show up to lunch doesn’t mean that they are the 5 people listed on your schedule. So if you thank Tom for lunch and he was out that day (so you saw Bob), you will look weird.

      I think at most people send the one collective thank you to the contact/assistant for the whole visit. I’m not aware of anyone being rejected for lack of thank you notes.

    8. LibbyG*

      I’m a faculty member, and I would be sort of surprised (in a good way, I suppose) to get a thank-you from a candidate for an administration position. My perception is that the most common practice is to convey your thanks and enthusiasm to the search committee via the committee chair. I don’t think there’s a downside to emailing people individually, but I doubt it would make the difference. Good luck!!

      1. LibbyG*

        On re-read, I now realize that the inquiry was a general one, not a what-to-do one. Scratch that “good luck.”

  38. Ronnie*

    I really hate the way my boss talks to me sometimes. If I make a mistake, I can take being let known that I messed up or did something wrong. I’m not perfect and I can own up to them with no problem. But the way my boss addresses issues with me is humiliating and makes me feel like I’m a child. Case in point: I took the keys to the coffee machine home with me by accident one day. To make matters worse, I was out sick the next day. I apologized and said it wouldn’t happen again but my boss was pretty relentless in letting me know how egregious my taking home the keys was. I just get sick and tired of always feeling like I need to be on the defense over little things.

    The worst part of all this is seeing how my boss treats my coworkers compared to me. For example: one of my coworkers booked a hotel for a visitor who ended up not showing up. Consequently, we were charged a no-show fee by the Hotel. She didn’t chastise her in front of everyone, ask her a barrage of questions about why she made the mistake or didn’t catch it sooner, or speak to her like she’s an idiot. She just told her to call the hotel and take care of it.

    2. pope suburban*

      Your boss and mine. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. It’s really demoralizing. I hope you get up and out, or, if that’s not what you want, that your boss has a bolt from the blue and stops overreacting with you.

    3. SJ*

      This happened to me just yesterday. I forgot to copy my boss’s assistant on an email containing a document she needed to put on his calendar — honestly a minor error, and probably the first time it’s ever happened in 2.5 years — and instead of just reminding me to do it, he sent me a sternly-worded and condescending email about how it’s “standard operating procedure” to copy his assistant and blah blah blah. PLUS, he copied the assistant on the email too, and she’s the kind of person who revels in other people’s mistakes. Every time crap like this happens, I feel better and better about job searching.

    4. Rabbit*

      Yep, mine too. I could handle it better if he treated everyone like this, but nope, just me! He also treats me like an idiot even when I DON’T make a mistake: ie, I ordered 15 teapots as he requested, but he just now decided he wants 25 now, so why didn’t I order 25!?. When I remind him gently he asked me for 15, but no problem, I will go ahead and order 10 more right away, he chastises me (in front of everyone!) for my “attitude.” It’s ridiculous because I come into work with a smile and sunny attitude and generally defer to him always (because there’s no winning, so why bother?), yet still get accused of “attitude.” Argh!

      It’s demoralizing, frustrating, and I have a hard time shaking it off at the end of the day. My sympathies are with you!

      1. pope suburban*

        Augh, the public-humiliation aspect! That is the pits. My boss does that to me too, and everyone else ends up feeling painfully awkward because they have, y’know, basic social graces. I normally just let him do it and try out my best Teflon impression, but it’s still *really* unpleasant. I don’t enjoy the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” position in which I am often put, but…nothing for it but to leave, I guess. I’m sorry you’re in those particular trenches right now too.

    5. Doriana Gray*

      This sounds exactly like my former manager from the division I just left in January. She has now been essentially demoted effective the first of this month. So take heart – maybe your boss will have the same karma :)

  39. Rabbit*

    What are people’s favorite free conference line? I’ve been using uber conference line, but I need something that could host more people.

    2. KW10*

      My old job used FreeConferencePro.com. You have to register but then it’s very easy to use and I don’t remember there being a limit on the number of people.

  40. Jean*

    Suggestions for those who hope to move on from being an administrative assistant? After many years of admin work I would like to pursue my own projects rather than always support those of peers, supervisors, or clients.

    Some of us admins have other experience and/or education and/or professional credentials; others of us don’t.

    Thank you in advance! Also, my apologies in advance: My schedule today prevents me from reading or replying for the next six hours. (Alison, if it’s against the spirit of this blog to Ask and Run, I’m willing to resubmit my question on another Friday when I can stick around to be interactive.)

    P.S. Am I the only person here who is diligently working to be more concise as per the post earlier this week? :-D

    REPLY

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      Administrative assistants handle a huge variety of work and it varies from job to job and field to field. What do you do the most? What do you like the most? What are you the best at? For example, I moved from admin to purchasing. I did a bit of purchasing in my admin job, more than other aspects. I also did a lot of customer service which I hated. I focused my resume and job applications on entry level purchasing jobs and moved into that type of work and mostly stayed away from the customer service side.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I was an admin for years. If you are with a good company, you can ask your boss if you could handle some more advanced projects. You could get some marketing, analytical, accounting, presentation, or all sorts of projects! I used to get all sorts of overflow work and I was really good at data. It was recognized and I was moved into a data analyst role.
      Best advice- give everything 100% of your effort and be interested in everyone’s work. Once you build trust with your co-workers, they will give you more challenging work and you will gain the experience to move up.

    3. Mngreeneyes*

      This is actually exactly what I was coming on here to ask about today.

      Background. I was a teacher for 8 years. When I left teaching the only interviews I seemed to get were for admin positions. Consequently for the last 10 years I have been an admin a few different places. For the last three and a half years I have been the admin for the development officers in a business school fundraising department. In 2011 I earned my masters in nonprofit management, so academically I am very over qualified for my job. I worked in development as my undergrad work study and as a teacher I was also the coach and director of several activities. I have raised thousands of dollars through face to face asks for sponsorships and ads. (I only recently had a lightbulb moment that these experiences might be helpful. )

      I am applying for an “entry level” development officer position but have already faced pushback from the recruiter because I am an admin.

      I have a coffee with the recruiter on Monday to discuss her insights on making the transition. How do I convince her and the hiring manager that my experience, education, and interest are in becoming a development officer instead of being in a support role?

      1. JaneB*

        On your other Q, yes, I have been practicing, and included some action phrases in email headers for my email- non-managing boss! Be interesting to see if t makes a difference…

  41. Charlotte Collins*

    OK. This just happened. What do you do when someone you have no seeming connection to requests to be connected on LinkedIn? I’ve been applying for jobs, so I’ve had a few people from those places request a connection. However, this is someone who lives in a completely different part of the country, seems to be in a different industry, and is not associated with any of the companies that I’ve been applying to.

    1. ann perkins*

      I reject those. I used to be accept-happy on Linked In, and now I have something crazy like 1,500 connections and people routinely pop up in my news feed and I have no idea who they are. You can reject and not feel bad, especially if it didn’t come with a note.

    2. Fabulous*

      Reject. I’ve heard some people like to use LinkedIn as a dating site, which creeps me out. No thanks!

      1. StellsBells*

        I’ve received a message from someone on LI that was clearly trying to make a more “personal” connection.

        I marked it as spam and removed him from my connections. I am now MUCH more selective about which connections I accept!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I usually just ignore those requests. I’ve gotten requests from people completely unrelated to my industry, tangentially related to my industry, or directly in my industry, but I will always ignore connection requests from people I’ve had previously zero interaction with. That doesn’t mean I have to know them in person. I’ll gladly connect with people I’ve “met” online (if we collaborated on a project together online or are part of the same professional mailing list).

    4. Ad Astra*

      I usually don’t accept invitations from those people. For whatever reason, some people like to add tons and tons of random connections on LinkedIn. If nothing about this person interests you, there’s no reason to connect.

    5. CM*

      I reject anybody who I don’t know well enough to send an email to or say hello to on the street.

    6. Susan C*

      People I don’t know in real life, I’d only accept if they put an actual good reason in request (like ‘I saw your article in Teapots Quarterly, and I’d like your input on this new spout study I’m developing’ or ‘your friend Cordelia recommended you for a job we’ll be posting soon, would you be interested in hearing more?’). Default messages or recruiters building a portfolio? Nah.

    7. Megs*

      I am much more liberal about LinkedIn connections than Facebook, but even so I wouldn’t accept an invite from someone in a different part of the country AND in a different industry AND not associated with companies I’m interested in. I will accept invites from people I don’t know, unlike Facebook, so long as they’re in my industry. I pretty much only use LinkedIn to research jobs I’m interested in, so I figure the more relevant connections, the better.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        This is kind of where I’m at with it. If he had a connection to even an organization that I belong to, I could see it. (Or if I were interested in taking a job in that part of the country.) But otherwise, it was just odd…

    8. Lucky*

      I only connect with total strangers who are in-house recruiters in my industry. I figure even if I’m not looking for a new job, it doesn’t hurt to have more visibility with recruiters, and they sometimes reach out seeking referrals from my network.

    10. Noah*

      I generally ignore them unless they are in my industry or somehow related to it. I figure I may have met them somewhere along the way and just forgotten their name or face.

    12. hermit crab*

      I’m with everyone else in that I just reject those completely out-of-the-blue requests. My personal rule is to accept requests only from (a) people I know in real life, (b) fellow alumni/students of schools I’ve attended, and (c) people who work for organizations that are clients of my company.

  42. Excel Slayer*

    So earlier this week I was chatting to a co-worker who I know has been on a CV course about CVs. He told me, in in voice of revelation, that one ‘trick’ was to put key words for the job in white at the bottom of the CV so that CV filtering software picks it up. (Why you wouldn’t try to work in some key words into your actual CV instead I’m not sure. Perhaps it would sound very buzzwordy?)

    I know that this is a bad idea. But he was taught this on an actual course? (This is less of a question and more me becoming aware of a big patch of potential naivety.)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yeah, do not do that. It’s bad advice that’s been floating around for a while. You might point out to him that if his resume is put into an ATS (which it often will be), the system will probably convert that white text into readable black text and he will look like an ass.

      1. Excel Slayer*

        I will certainly point that out to him! Thankfully, I know him well enough for that.

      2. Sadsack*

        So I guess I should remove the white line where I say: please, give me the job, please, me me me me

        2. Folklorist*

          I had actually put something like that in my SEO for my personal website as a joke and then sent the site to people/posted it on Facebook for a while. Then FB did the “automatic preview” thing and all of that text came up in the preview description part. So, I was promoting my freelance work on social media and just below my name and awesome photos, it said, “Oh, God, please f*cking hire me, oh god oh god.” I hadn’t put that text into the SEO box; I had put it in the site description box.

          And when I found it out, I was posting from my phone (when Facebook wouldn’t let you delete from your phone). It took hours for me to get home, delete that Facebook post, go into my website, and change the description. Ultimate Derp.

            1. Folklorist*

              ^^^Exactly how I felt! (I can laugh about it now that I have stable employment and a decent freelance side business. It was less funny then.)

    2. Megs*

      Wow, that sounds super super super dumb. Also, any time something is referred to as a “trick” I’d give it the side eye. I hope he didn’t pay money for that course.

      1. Excel Slayer*

        It was an actual course with actual money with people sitting in a room being powerpointed at. I didn’t ask about money, and I really dread to think.

    3. StellsBells*

      I’ve heard of companies doing this in job postings (for example, putting various programming languages at the bottom of a job posting for an IT role where knowing programming is a huge plus but not a requirement if they have the right background), but I’ve never heard of someone doing it in a resume!

      But, as stated by Alison said, a lot of Applicant Tracking Systems will convert the resume into a plain text document on the recruiter’s side, so the formatting would be lost and the “white text” is seen.

      1. Excel Slayer*

        D: I hate to think of the people looking like idiots after taking that advice in good faith.

        1. StellsBells*

          Me too! I know there are probably some great programs out there, but in my experience in recruiting, I’ve seen so many of these kinds of “courses” that are done by people who are just trying to make a quick buck. (Granted, I was recruiting back in 2008, so I saw a lot of these types of businesses capitalizing on the large amount of desperate and unemployed – which made me both very sad and very, very angry).

  43. Nervous Accountant*

    Not much to report.
    Noticed a weird pattern with my supervisor, but things are good the last few days so I’m not as motivated to talk about it much…..the “creepy coworker” has just downgraded to plain weird. Corporate deadline passed this week.. upper mgmt rewarded those of us in the “century club” (aka those who have done 100/200/300 returns) with multiple $25 gift cards, which was nice (a higher salary would be nicer but I dont want to look a gift horse in the mouth?).. And my “grand-boss” just emailed me saying congratulations on hitting the double-century club. So not a whole lot going on, and that’s pretty nice. I remember the countless crying jags the last few seasons. Feels good to…feel like this?

    1. Mirilla*

      Good for you! This sounds like a pleasant place to work and it’s ok to feel good about it.

  44. Anon for this one*

    Regular poster, going anon.

    My team (not my company, just my team) recently moved to a new location. We’ve also had a rash of resignations at least partially related to that move. (TPTB really believe in the need for the move, which is not related to saving the company money; those of us in the rank and file are mostly just annoyed by it.)

    I’m at a middle-to-senior level, and for various reasons I’ve decided to stay the course even as people resign in droves. But I’m not at all happy about how my commute has gotten longer and I now work in a much crappier neighborhood than I did before. Not only has my commute gotten longer, there’s a lot more variance involved — it used to take me 20-25 minutes to get to work, now it takes 35 minutes if everything goes perfectly, and an hour if things go sour.

    Is it obnoxious of me to leave home anticipating a 40-45 minute commute each morning, and let the chips fall where they may on getting to work on time? (Note, I’m not a receptionist or in any such position where, say, the office can’t function if I’m not there. But this team is fond of setting daily meetings that start at the time most of us usually arrive in the morning*).

    *an arrival time that is totally normal for this industry. We’re far more 9:30-late than 8:30-5.

    1. Dawn*

      “Is it obnoxious of me to leave home anticipating a 40-45 minute commute each morning, and let the chips fall where they may on getting to work on time?”

      Yeah, that’s obnoxious. Google Maps/Waze will be able to tell you how long of a commute you should expect to have, and even though traffic volume fluctuates over time if you check at 8am and there’s (for example) two wrecks on I95 North plus another wreck on 395 then you KNOW it’ll take an hour to get to work.

      Now if you’re on your way to work and traffic happens while you’re driving, that’s outside of your control.

      1. Anonsie*

        Ehhh. I did that this morning, it said with traffic 17 minutes to my appointment so I decided to be careful and leave right then with about 25 minutes time to get there. It actually took 35 and I had to reschedule.

        I’ve never had any luck getting really good estimates on traffic with Google maps when searching by itself, only when using it for navigation and even then it tends to be cute and change is estimates around frequently while I’m driving.

        1. Observer*

          Get Waze. Google maps will pick up some info from Waze. Or use Waze itself. They’ve just added some features to improve analysis of how traffic will hit your drive.

    2. Christy*

      I’d say allow 45 minutes. And I would push back at the start-time meetings because of the changed commute.

      I do agree with Dawn that you should check to see if there are major problems so that you can try to allow more time in situations where you know traffic will be bad.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I don’t understand how you would do that in practice, though? I have a very tight schedule for myself in the morning, and could not just leave 10 minutes earlier than I’d planned to.

        1. Christy*

          I tend to as well, but not everyone does. My girlfriend budgets a lot of time for waking up and drinking coffee, and she can cut into that time. I give myself 40 minutes to get out the door, and I could definitely shave off ten minutes if I had to. You just budget those ten minutes and know you can enjoy them at home or be slightly more leisurely. Besides, the alternative is really always waking up and leaving earlier, so it’s better than that.

      2. afiendishthingy*

        “I’d say allow 45 minutes. And I would push back at the start-time meetings because of the changed commute.”

        This would be my move. And if I have something scheduled first thing in the morning I do check when I first wake up to see what traffic looks like, but there’s only so much you can predict. You get there when you get there.

    3. Marketeer*

      I’d say give it 45 minutes and I don’t think it’s obnoxious. I take the exact same bus every morning; sometimes I get in 10 minutes early and sometimes I get in an hour and a half late. You’re giving yourself leeway in case there is traffic, but you shouldn’t have to check the traffic every 10 minutes while you’re getting ready.

    4. Anonsie*

      Depends on how often it’s over 40-45 minutes, but generally I don’t think that’s a problem. I catch the same bus every morning and probably once a week it’ll be just a couple minutes late and then once every few weeks it will be significantly late, like 15 minutes.

      The meetings make this iffier, though. I guess it depends on how often the meeting are and how often the delays are.

      I’m one of those people who gets up and gets ready and gets the heck out of the house, so putting extra time to potentially be milling around the house in the morning would be my personal hell. I can’t relax before I leave the house in the morning, bleh.

  45. Keeping in Touch*

    Quick question for everyone — is it okay to reach out to a former manager who I just found out is expecting?

    I left the job about 8 months ago now. We left on good terms. She agreed to be a reference for me in future job searches. I have not had any contact with her since then, but have stayed friends with one of my coworkers from that job, which is how I found out about the news (which was apparently a happy announcement).

    Is it in any way appropriate to congratulate her, since I didn’t even find out from her directly, or is that an invasion of privacy? This was my first full-time job out of college, so I’m actually pretty clueless and still trying to figure out norms for keeping in touch with managers, networking, etc. This is a topic that has always confused me so any advice is appreciated!

    1. oldfashionedlovesong*

      Maybe you could just send her a friendly email saying hello and that you were thinking of her, how are things, etc. I keep in touch with a few old colleagues and generally when I send an email like that (like once or twice a year) they’ll reply back with “Oh, things are great, doing this or that”. So if she feels like her pregnancy is something she wants to share with you, she’ll probably mention it in her reply and you can congratulate her then. If she doesn’t mention it then you know you were better off not congratulating her out of the blue.

    2. CM*

      I think it would be totally fine if she made a public announcement and everybody in her group knows. (You might want to check with your former coworker on this; make sure she didn’t hear it secondhand or in confidence.)

      1. TootsNYC*

        This. If I had announced something like that to my team, and one of them mentioned it to a former employee or intern, and that employee/intern contacted me out of the blue to say, “Fergus told me you’re expecting–that’s happy news! I hope all goes well” I’d be really touched, and I wouldn’t think it was inappropriate at all.

    3. Amy UK*

      I would definitely reach out and congratulate her. Unless the colleague you heard from found the news out from an iffy source (relative who shouldn’t have blabbed, office gossip etc), then I don’t see how it’s inappropriate.

  46. On My Phone*

    Thoughts on referring a friend for a position on my team…

    My good friend an I both work for the same F50 company. Him and I have both risen over the years and have really good jobs at said company. Recently, my boss has been given the opportunity to put together a formal team of her own. I mentioned that I think my friend would a great asset since he is super smart, has some of the skillset we are looking for and overall is a good team player.

    She’s meet him at a few employee functions and she makes sure I invite him to any of our team functions – so I am thinking he has made a good impression. She said she would mention it to big boss (this was prior to the official OK to start her team) and we never spoke of it again. Him and I use to work the same team when I first started and that is where the friendship started 14 years ago. I am impartial meaning I wouldn’t be bothered if she doesn’t think he is a good fit and I respect her judgment and authority to make that call. I am really enjoying a high profile career under her leadership and don’t want to mess that up. At the same time, I think he brings some excellent qualities to the table that our team could benefit from.

    Should I bring it up again now that she is in the process of structuring her team?
    I’ve tried to mentally address the pros/cons of this setup. Does anyone have stories where it went smooth or negative?

    1. fposte*

      It doesn’t sound like the first mention was that long ago. If it was within, say, six months, I’d let it go unless I were asked. More than that I’d be okay with a quick re-mention.

  47. MsChanandlerBong*

    I posted last week or the week before about a new client who was driving me crazy. Unfortunately, I had to “fire” him. I explained that I’m a freelancer/independent contractor, which means I make my own schedule and decide which projects I am going to tackle at any given time (in a much nicer way than I just said it here). I also suggested he hire a part-time employee rather than try to hire another freelancer. He really wants someone to be dedicated to his project and his project only, which doesn’t work with the freelancing model, especially when the gig doesn’t pay enough to make a living. If it paid well enough to pay the bills, sure, I’d dedicate my time to it. But it didn’t, so I had to drop it and find more reasonable clients.

    Lesson learned: Always trust your gut. The first time we spoke, he said he’d already been through three writers and couldn’t find anybody good enough to do the work; I should have declined the work.

  48. Bowserkitty*

    This is work-related but in a more broad sense, so if I should switch over to the FFA let me know.

    I got an email from Amazon stating it was named #1 on a corporate reputation list by Harris. Weren’t they just recently in the news for being a horrendous place to work? Does anyone know more about this stuff?
    (I googled this list and apparently it was announced last month but Amazon announced to customers just yesterday.)

    1. katamia*

      Could it be the difference between working in one of their warehouses versus working for their corporate offices?

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I think a lot of those lists are pretty suspect. You have to really know what exactly is being analyzed and how. (Also, you have to look at *who* is putting the list together. It’s just like magazines that accept product endorsements then give great reviews to the products.)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yeah, it’s often based on things like surveying on formal benefits, but not based on actually talking to real people who work there about less tangible stuff (like culture).

        2. Sunflower*

          I agree. I have a few friends who work at some of these companies and they have less than glowing things to say. I think all the big 4 acctg firms are on their and while they do have good perks, their employees are also working around the clock for a good part of the year.

      2. Quirk*

        Their tech industry reputation isn’t stellar. They’re said to have very high turnover among their developers. (A quick Google for “Amazon developer turnover” will give you some of the flavour there).

        However, the Harris list is apparently a poll of the general public, and I’m unsure how generally informed people are on the topic.

    2. BRR*

      I’ve heard with Amazon that it’s different if you work in the home office or another place. My SIL has worked for them in two other cities and likes her job but has said she would never work in the Seattle office.

  49. super anon*

    I have an event and I need a general purpose powerpoint about our organization with what we do, our programs, etc. I contacted our admin (who is a dept of one), and was told we don’t have one. I asked her if she would be able to put something together for me based on past presentations or give me access to the presentations and was told no on both fronts. I would have to make one if I need it, and I’ll have to make it from scratch. I am not in marketing/communications, and I am newish to the dept and really don’t know enough about our mission and programs to produce something like this on a short timeline.

    Would this be the kind of thing the admin would do, or at least have access to the assets to give me to get it done? Our admin isn’t the best in other areas (meeting minutes are never sent out, meetings are often cancelled 5 minutes beforehand or after they were slated to start, calls for agenda items for meetings are frequently sent 30 minutes prior to the meeting, if sent at all, etc), so I’m not sure if I should be annoyed that she’s dropped the ball on this too or if I’m out of line.

    1. some1*

      Most companies have a power point template. At least where I have worked.

      Re: your second paragraph, are you sure those things are the admin’s fault? I’m an admin and I schedule meetings at my boss’s request. If they get cancelled at the last minutes, it’s because that’s when he told me to cancel it.

      1. super anon*

        often i’ll come to her at 12 to ask if the meeting is happening that day at 5 (because the call for agenda items hadn’t been sent out. at all the other meetings i go to it’s sent a day in advance, and has been at these ones too) and she’ll tell me it’s cancelled, but the cancellation email isn’t sent until just before the meeting.

        1. some1*

          Yeah, that shouldn’t happen – she should be sending the cancellation notice as soon as she can so people can plan ahead

    2. Dangerfield*

      I don’t know, if you’re saying you can’t do it because you’re not in marketing or communications doesn’t that apply to the admin too? Not giving you access to old presentations if she has them is silly and if she had the information you’d need to easily create one then she should have sent you that, but it seems like this might be something outside her purview.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yup, and another thing to keep in mind is that some places will want you to go through marketing anyway. There might already be an official one that they want you to use, and creating a new one might be reinventing the wheel.

      2. super anon*

        I should have been more clear – I absolutely don’t expect her to make me a brand new presentation about us and who we are. But, she’s been with the org since it was formed 3 years ago – if anyone would know what exists and where to find it, it’s her. I don’t have access any of our marketing files because they are all on her computer, and I was hoping she could give me them so I could have something to go off of.

        1. Kelly L.*

          But it sounds like maybe it doesn’t exist, or maybe exists at the marketing department and not with her? I’m not sure.

          1. super anon*

            Marketing is entirely separate from our department and they don’t keep files for units after they’ve created them. Files from branding and MarCom are sent to us and kept locally within the unit. I know she has access to past presentations and branding files because she’s showed them to me – so I am confused as to why I can’t have access to them now.

      1. CM*

        (Not that she’s necessarily lying, but she doesn’t sound terribly engaged in her job, so maybe there’s exactly what you need in PDF form instead of PowerPoint but she didn’t bother to mention it because it’s easier to just say no.)

    4. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      If she doesn’t have access to a pre-made power point, I wouldn’t ask her to do it.

      Is there someone in Mktg/Com you can reach out to?

      1. super anon*

        I work in a very large org, we have a MarCom team, and individual departments have their own communications managers/departments. I am positive we should have a general powerpoint on who we are/what we do that we’ve used for fundraising and development, but if the admin doesn’t have access to it I am at a loss for who I should contact.

        1. PontoonPirate*

          Can you ask someone in the fundraising and development team to see if they have one that will meet your needs?

        2. Sunflower*

          I would ask whoever is in charge of MarCom for your dept. Even if they don’t have it, they should definitely know where to find it.

          I would find it odd if you are a large org and don’t have a general presentation so it probably does exist.

        3. catsAreCool*

          Does your company have a website? Could you start with some of that information?

          One thing I’ve learned is that I tend to get more information from someone if I have started something, and the person can tell me what to fix.

    5. Kelly L.*

      It doesn’t sound like there are any past presentations for her to give you access to, or for her to base a new presentation upon.

      I don’t know the details of your work, but I’m an admin, and I’m not qualified to write about the real meat of what my superiors do. What they do involves a specific master’s degree and in many cases a specific doctorate. If they give me language, I’m perfectly happy to put it in a powerpoint for them (or on a website, or in a brochure, etc.), but there are a lot of terms of art that I’d rather not screw up. How technical are you wanting this presentation to be?

      1. super anon*

        I should have specified that I’ve seen her make presentations for others in our unit, and I know that we’ve done presentations on who we are

        I have the text on what I do already made, but I don’t have access to our branding or our official font. I was hoping she could put my text into what already exists (or what I think should exist based on what my prior experience). I don’t mind making it myself, but I’m overwhelmed at the thought of having to make sure I get our messaging on point with such short notice.

    6. PontoonPirate*

      Why would the admin do it? Unless she has specific marketing training, it wouldn’t be any more helpful to you than if the A/P clerk did it.

      I get being annoyed if she’s been ineffective at things that are her job, like managing meetings and agendas, but she didn’t “drop the ball” in this — it wasn’t her ball to begin with.

      1. super anon*

        I guess I feel like she dropped the ball because our directors asked her to help me, and instead she brushed me off and left me on my own to get this done.

        1. CM*

          Yup, I agree and would be annoyed too! Just find someone in MarCom, walk right into their office, and say “I’m new here and I need a PowerPoint describing our organization. Can you help me?” Odds are they will help you. Don’t worry about finding just the right person.

    7. Marketeer*

      Definitely go to someone in the Marketing department especially if you work for a large organization. You need to keep on brand and I would have to assume they have something already made.

    8. TootsNYC*

      No, this would not be anything an admin would do in any of the offices I’ve worked in. Especially not if she’s a department of one–that means she’s handling a ton of administrative stuff and won’t have much bandwidth left.

      A very high-level admin who worked w/ the marketing director might have access to those presentations.

      Go to the marketing person and start there.

  50. Cerulean*

    I’m running into an issue and I could use some advice.

    I work in a semi-support role, preparing reports and documents for a larger and more technical department. The group of us that prepares these reports is small, and shrinking–in part because the manager who can approve hiring has, basically, champagne tastes on a Miller Lite budget. They want qualifications for new hires that they frankly can’t expect at what they’re willing to pay. They were able to sort of get those qualifications when the economy was doing more poorly, but now they just can’t–and furthermore, the qualifications considered ‘required’ have increased even as the pool of people willing to do them for the salary range has decreased.

    This is not something I can fix; my direct manager is aware of the issue, but his manager is the one who has to approve hiring, and won’t budge on either pay or qualifications. So as people naturally move on from our team, we’re unable to replace them; the team has halved in the last four years.

    I’m not asking for advice on changing my manager’s manager’s mind; I don’t think that’s possible. And I’m looking to move out of this position in the next few years anyway. But here’s what I would like advice on:

    Right now, the team, small as it is, can barely keep up with the ‘bare minimum’ projects. The workload has actually increased (in the sense that the department we support has grown by 25% over the time that our group’s staff has halved), and we can barely keep up. We’re non-exempt, and while I can get approval for limited OT, they’re not going to approve me working 60 hours a week on a regular basis or something (nor would I want to), simply for financial reasons. We can, more or less, cover our minimal requirements even short-staffed as we are, but anything optional falls by the wayside.

    But other departments who we support don’t really get that, and keep bringing us additional things to update, analyze, report on, and review. I don’t think I can really say, “Yes, that should probably be updated, but until Big Boss lets us actually hire somebody it ain’t gonna happen.” I can’t honestly say “that doesn’t need to be updated/analyzed/reviewed” because often it self-evidently does–it’s just not part of the ‘minimal drop-dead necessary tasks list.’ I used to say something along the lines of, “I’ll put that on the list for when we have time,” but obviously people have started to notice that ‘when we have time’ never seems to happen (because we never do). And it’s just not clear to me how to say, “You’re right that that should be done, but realistically it won’t.”

    I don’t expect other teams to be aware of the inner workings of our team’s problems, hiring restrictions, workload-to-employee ratio, etc. They have their own things to worry about. And it’s perfectly reasonable for them to come to us; this is our job, and the problem is logistical rather than that their requests are unreasonable. (As I said, even bare-minimum workload has increased by around 25% even as our department was halved; I don’t think it’s just that we need to work harder or smarter or more efficiently.)

    I just have no earthly idea what to say to these requests when they come, when the answer is “yes, you’re absolutely right that that ought to be done, but frankly it’s not gonna.”

    Thoughts?

    1. Cerulean*

      (Oh, one more thing–I anticipate a reply of “make them go to your manager for these requests,” which is probably a reasonable suggestion, but it’d be out of line for the history and company culture for this position. Since for the past ten years we have dealt with these requests directly, and have never required people to go through the manager for them, “you have to ask Boss” would be a major shift that would be perceived as obstructive or deliberately unhelpful. I wish it weren’t so, but it is, which is why I haven’t already tried that.)

      1. Graciosa*

        Seeing your note, just drop the last sentence of my suggested response – although I still think you should tell the truth about the cause of not being able to get the requested work done. Even if you don’t suggest speaking to higher ups about staffing levels, someone with half a brain and a desire to get the work done will end up saying something.

      2. Lavender tea*

        So what does your boss expect you to do? Not being snarky – I genuinely want to better understand. This does not feel like a problem you can solve on your own at this point, and your boss needs to get involved. I get that your boss’ boss is going to say “make it work” but at a certain point, that’s not feasible and hey, things change. What worked 10 years ago does not necessarily work now.

        I’d strongly suggest going back to your own boss and saying “I am only able to handle x requests in my day and I know we don’t have the manpower/budget/hours in the day to do more than that. How should I handle these overflow requests going forward?” I’d also come armed with some suggestions of the types of requests you would like to either decline or escalate to your boss if necessary. And tell your boss that you plan to (politely but firmly) tell others no, you’re unable to take on new requests because of your existing workload. Not “I’ll get to it” which can make you seem flaky, but no.

        1. Cerulean*

          Direct boss says “tell them you’ll put it on the list,” I think because he’s hoping that we’ll eventually be able to actually… hire. Which is why I’ve been doing that (despite realizing, as the two of you have said, that it makes us look flaky in the long term). I suppose it’s time to say “hey, you know what, people are going to start noticing that things never actually come off the list, what should I tell them instead?”

          1. Lavender tea*

            Gotcha. Yea, definitely go back to him. Good luck! It’s tough to be in your position and I hope you can get some support from your boss rather than you protecting the people above you.

            1. Cerulean*

              Thank you! I’m going to try pointing out to my direct boss that “we’ll put it on the list” made sense 2-4 years ago when we thought this would be a short term problem, but now it just makes the department look bad.

              I actually have zero desire to protect the big boss and would happily make him deal with these requests until he relaxes his requirements enough to hire. I would love that, actually. :P I just wasn’t sure where the boundary was between “stop protecting him” and “seem to be criticizing/complaining about a director to other employees,” honestly.

    2. Graciosa*

      What’s wrong with a polite version of the truth?

      Yes, the work ought to be done. Unfortunately, with current staffing levels, it is probably not something you’ll be able to commit to, although you certainly would have liked to be able to do it. The requester is absolutely free to take it up with your boss and see if Boss has any other suggestions or ways to make it a priority.

      Understaffing is not your fault – it’s a choice, and you didn’t make it.

      At some point, not being (politely) candid about the real issue starts to make you look unwilling rather than unable, which hurts your reputation unfairly while also ensuring that the Boss (and Boss’ Boss) don’t have to deal directly with the consequences of their decisions.

      I think you can stop protecting them.

      You’re right that you will not be able to get them to change, but the combined pressure of the increasing contempt of the Boss’ Boss colleagues or his concern about how incompetent he appears might. Even if it doesn’t, at least the annoyance is being directed to its source.

      1. Cerulean*

        I was concerned that “That would be a good thing to do, but we’re understaffed, so it probably won’t happen” would look like whining, but if you don’t think that’s likely, I can certainly give it a try. (I was more concerned about that than about protecting boss’s boss, frankly; I’ve just heard that it looks bad to say “no, I can’t do that” without providing alternatives if the thing being asked is within your job description, and I can’t really provide alternatives since hiring is out of my hands–and out of my direct boss’s hands, too.)

        Sadly, while my manager is perfectly reasonable, if they do take it up with boss’s boss, his “champagne tastes” mentality means that he’s likely to say that everything is a priority and that we should make it work somehow, so I’m not sure I want to direct them to bring it to his attention. (Yes, this is why I’m looking to move out within the next couple of years….)

        1. Cerulean*

          Oh wow, that is SO satisfying to read. I would love to be able to say “you know why this thing isn’t getting done? because our resources are stretched as thin as butter scraped over too much bread, that’s why.”

    3. Terra*

      Possibly make up a calendar or other schedule type sheet either on your computer or a publicly viewable whiteboard and start marking out how long all the required stuff is estimated to take. Then when someone comes to you with something optional you can pull that up and say “we won’t be able to look at it until X provided it doesn’t get bumped for something urgent.” Or if you aren’t one for the dramatics then you can just tell people “due to our workload we won’t be able to look at it until at least X and it will have to be bumped back if we’re needed on more urgent projects instead.”

      1. Cerulean*

        Making the required-items list and its time estimates public is an interesting idea, thank you! People may get the picture better if it’s clear that the time that we are theoretically free of bare-minimum tasks is like 2018, and that assuming no products or initiatives are added in the next two years.

    4. Newbie*

      Two thoughts, from having been in a somewhat similar situation in the past:

      1) Are there any reports that are recurring and could be automated or somehow pushed out to the end users to run themselves when needed? I had experiences where the same type of report was consistently requested, just with different parameters each time (a different date range). We were able to create reports field that the user could define and run themselves. We also had some reports that were asked for every week, month, quarter, etc., that we could schedule that would run at the programmed time and be automatically emailed to the requester. Cutting down on the standard, recurring requests freed up time for the rest of the work.

      2) Can you suggest having published expectations for what your department is capable of producing so the other department knows what to expect. If they know that a data request or report in category A has a two-day turnaround while items in category B takes two weeks, their expectations can be managed. They don’t necessarily know how long a project will take, so putting it up front and easily accessible can at least provide them with a time frame for when they might get what they need. Or provide a log that is viewable by the other department that shows the status of requests. I created a spreadsheet (read-only for them) where I noted requests as they came in and added the anticipated completion date based on my workload, and updated that date as appropriate.

      Keeping doing the best work you can in the time you have available and keep your manager informed of the backlog. Let him know some relevant statistics (we’re only able to complete X% of the work each week; the number of projects waiting for attention has grown by X) and ask him for guidelines for prioritization. Don’t try to kill yourself keeping up with the workload – why would he hire anyone new if you somehow manage to keep it all done?

      1. Cerulean*

        Thank you so much! This is helpful.

        We’ve done some automation, but there may be more that can be done in the future. I’ll definitely bring that up as a possibility.

        I like the idea of some kind of log to make it clear to them what the status of various things are. The wait time itself is likely to be more or less irrelevant (because the rate of necessary work is high enough that the wait time for optional work is essentially ‘until we hire someone’) but if they can see that we have 50 high-priority tasks in the log, each of which will take one person two weeks, or whatever, then the reaosn why their requests keep never making it to the top of the list may be more obvious. And potentially big boss will eventually be swayed by metrics. (Not likely, I think, but possible.)

        I’m definitely not going to kill myself keeping up! The fact that I’m non-exempt and they don’t want to pay vast quantities of overtime does help with that, fortunately.

    5. StellsBells*

      I just wanted to say I feel for you! My last job was in a very similar position (except that we just didn’t have the approval to expand our headcount or replace a team member who left while the workload kept increasing).

      It was so frustrating for our team because our boss’s boss agreed we needed more people but couldn’t get VP approval because our team wasn’t doing “anything above the minimum requirements” even though the requirements were increasing and our headcount decreased. Ugh!

      I loved my work and team, though, and was sad that I had to leave (although not too said since I get more $$ in current job and have less work!)

      1. Cerulean*

        Thank you! I also love my immediate team (and I actually like most of the people in the department we support, which makes it especially hard), so it’s frustrating that this causes such annoyances and roadblocks on a regular basis.

    6. Observer*

      I agree with most of what’s been written. I’d probably go with a conversation with your boss, telling people that you will put it on the list but realistically the non-urgent stuff is probably going to wait a looong time because you are overstaffed, and doing the time line thing.

      Especially if you have something like that that people can see, people will be smart enough to understand that “make it work” is not a reasonable response. And if enough people push, it might help.

      Also, is your Boss’s boss the top of the food chain?

      1. Cerulean*

        Yeah, I’m hoping that either I can get an okay from my boss to be more candid than simply “we’ll put it on the list,” and that a timeline will help people see that it’s not unwillingness or slacking that has us not getting to their requests in a timely fashion (or, as things are going, likely not getting to them ever–as it is, it’s not just that these things won’t happen for months, it’s that without more manpower they probably won’t happen at all, because there is a steady rate of cannot-ignore required work).

        Boss’s boss is indeed at the top of the food chain. There is technically a CEO above him, but the CEO is extremely hands-off of this kind of day to day stuff, and there’s essentially no way that I (or, realistically, my manager) could go to him on this topic (he cares about major strategy, not about prioritization of specific documents and etc.). This is also why I’ve been really hesitant to make it clear what the staffing issues are: while it’d be true, and I understand what other people are saying about not “protecting” him, I also know that it can really backfire to be seen as repeatedly complaining about senior management, and it’s hard for me to know how to make it clear that there’s a staffing issue that’s out of my team’s hands without appearing to be criticizing him to coworkers.

  51. Ophelia*

    Just got rejected from a job I would have really loved to get. They flew me out internationally for the interview, which made me think I was a strong candidate, so getting rejected makes me think I must have made a really terrible impression in person :/ Going to drown my sorrows in peanut butter pie.

    1. ReddWicked*

      Don’t!
      You were probably a great candidate if they flew you out, they just found someone who was a better fit or match than you. We can’t win them all. you know?

      1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

        This! You were a strong candidate, but someone else was a slightly better fit.

        In my experience, if I am paying someone to travel (and thinking about what adding relocation to their package is going to do to my budget) they are one of my top two candidates.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s always a total bummer to not get a job you really want. That said, your takeaway should definitely still be I was a strong candidate and not I must have made a really terrible impression in person.

      From your perspective, you got rejected. From their perspective, they hired someone else. In other words, you were probably one of a very few finalists (maybe you and two other people), and I’m sure the hiring committee agonized over who to select. There may have even been someone advocating for you on the hiring side, but that person lost out to a bigger voice on the hiring committee. Hiring isn’t an exact science (you may have actually been a better hire, but they don’t know that—they just hire whomever they think will be the best hire), and not getting hired can definitely feel like a rejection, but most of the time it’s not a malicious one.

    3. Megs*

      Sorry to hear it. I almost always take post-interview rejections harder than ones that I don’t get an interview for – it just feels so personal at that point! I’ve mostly convinced myself that it’s just a tough job market and something else will come along, but it’s hard to believe it some days. Peanut butter pie sounds amazing.

    4. Ophelia*

      Thank you both. I will change this to celebratory pie in honor of having GOTTEN an interview.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, it totally sucks and feels awful, but it’s really not a bad reflection on you.

      2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        Not only did you GET an interview, you were flown INTERNATIONALLY!

        It sounds like you’re an awesome candidate, and this just wasn’t the right fit for them. That’s okay, and it sounds like you won’t have long to wait before the next call!

    5. BRR*

      To make it that far I’d say they love you and it was probably super close. That they would have been really happy with you but somebody else probably just edged you it.

  52. katamia*

    And a slightly more pressing question:

    I WFH contracting with one company right now. We get paid twice a month, in the middle and at the end. For various reasons, I don’t have direct deposit right now (used to, long story). Ever since I haven’t had direct deposit, my contact at the company, Lucinda, has been sending me emails saying, “We mailed your check today.”

    I always thought it was weird that she’d send an email, but this time I didn’t get one and I’m vaguely concerned. And I’m wondering if they sent the check but just forgot to send the email or didn’t send the check or if there was something wrong with the invoice I submitted. I’d feel really silly asking about it and getting a response back saying, “Oh, we mailed it but forgot to send an email.” It’s still too early for me to have gotten the check via USPS if they did send it on the day I’d expect them to. So how long is long enough to wait to email them? Or should I be doing it now even though the check isn’t actually late yet?

    FWIW, they’ve always paid me on time and never tried to underpay me or anything like that.

    1. Stella Maris*

      If you have a good relationship with Lucinda I don’t think a quick call or email is out of line – especially since it’s an established pattern that’s been set.

      1. katamia*

        We’ve never met or spoken on the phone, just emailed. I think she likes me/my work quality, but I don’t really feel like we have a relationship. (Which I’m not sad about–nothing against her, but one of the reasons I like working from home so much is so I don’t have to deal with other people unless I want to.)

    2. CM*

      If you don’t need the check right away, I’d wait until it’s late and then check in, since they’ve always paid you on time before.

    3. katamia*

      Update: the check showed up in the mail today, haha. Guess she just didn’t feel like sending an email this time.

  53. starsaphire*

    Allison and friends,

    I just wanted to say that I’m sitting here in my new cubicle at my amazing new Teapot Documentation job, and I owe a great deal of that fact to this blog, and the Magic Interview Question.

    Mind you, I didn’t just throw the question out there randomly, and that’s why I think it worked for me. Instead, I carefully researched the company before my phone interview, thought long and hard about the questions *I* wanted to ask *them*, and then integrated the Magic Question in with a question about the company’s core values. The response I got from my interviewers sounded a lot like “Ooooooh! Wow, that’s a great question!”

    I took a lot of confidence from your advice and the information you made available to us. My resume was clean and one-page, my cover letter was personalized but professional, my questions were articulate and to the point, and I wowed them. I followed up quickly with the requested writing samples, dressed well for my onsite interview even though everyone here wears jeans, sent a prompt thank-you email afterwards, and landed the job.

    Thank you, Allison! You are the greatest. :)

    1. starsaphire*

      And I’m a jerk, because I double-L’d your name. Mea culpa!

      Thank you, Alison! You are the greatest. :)

  54. Susan C*

    I would appreciate some moral support. It has now been 11 days since my fourth and final interview with Teapots Inc., and they’ve contacted me twice to inform me the decision process is being delayed.

    Once I understood, because one of my interviewers had come down with the flu and had to hand off the task of making a case for me with whoever’s approval is still needed, but by now it’s making me fidgety. If they’d said “this will take a while, expect to hear from us in 2-3 weeks” – ok, sure! But it’s always been, oh, we’ll know in the next few days. It’s also increasingly hard to stay in the headspace for continued job hunting, which won’t do anything to soften the blow in case of a rejection. UGH~ >.<

    1. Megs*

      Arg, that stinks! I know the advice is always to keep the job search going no matter where you are in any particular application process, but I certainly find that very hard to do. I try to tell myself that if things go south, it’s going to be a blow no matter what else I’ve been doing, so I might as well just keep on as usual and hope for a pleasant surprise.

      I hope you hear something (preferably good) soon!

    2. CM*

      That’s so frustrating! I’m on the other side here — trying to hire someone, and wanting to push the process along so we don’t lose our best candidates, and facing all sorts of delays because X is out sick and Y needs to approve and emergency project Z takes precedence over everything. Our process was supposed to take 4 weeks and it’s taken about 8… which is actually faster than I expected. So, try to distract yourself while you sit tight! I think it’s a great sign that they’ve contacted you twice in the 11 days to inform you about delays. It means they actually care enough to communicate with you, which in my experience most companies don’t do.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      On a positive note, they are proactively reaching out to let you know the process is being delayed!

      Getting back to job hunting is probably your best bet. I’m sorry :(

    4. StellsBells*

      My last job had the same thing happen to me during the interview process. They they wanted to make me an offer, but found out that they needed additional approval they didn’t know about so they didn’t want to promise me something they couldn’t deliver. It was like 6 or 8 weeks of AGONY!

      Luckily it all worked out, and I’m glad they were honest with me and not shady about it, but it was not fun.

  55. UsingAnotherName*

    I have a problem with authority. And by “problem with authority,” I mean I’m afraid of it. This has been the case since I was little. If I sense any sort of power dynamic (no matter how benevolent or slight), I have a really hard time managing appropriate responses to interactions with bosses, more-senior colleagues, and people I don’t know well. I think I’m over-apologizing for things (this seems to be the only way to get people to go away after I’ve made a mistake, they’ve pointed it out, I’ve owned up to and offered a solution) and feel like I have to verbally humiliate myself and say how stupid I am before the situation feels resolved and the person walks away.

    This is partly a culture thing at my workplace, I think, (I haven’t experienced this to this level in any other workplace) but I also feel it’s just ingrained in me. A supervisor once said I was a doormat and I’m the first to admit I don’t feel standing up for what I want/feel is right in the workplace is worth the conflict. Even if doing so definitely won’t result in a firing, it’s just not worth the stress to me. I’m afraid of coming off as disrespectful and speaking out of my place. So far, I don’t think this has severely impacted my career, but I’m worried it could. Any suggestions about how to manage this short of seeing a therapist?

      1. UsingAnotherName*

        I honestly don’t have the time right now. I might in the summer, but it’s just not an option at the moment. :(

        1. Susan C*

          So, I’m not saying this applies to you (actually if it did, I imagine you would’ve made the connection already), but this is a really common thing with adult children of abusive (or otherwise unstable) parents. If therapy is really, truly not an option (although I also recommend it), I’d suggest hitting up the interwebs for some information and self-help guides from that area – cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) for example addresses these ‘symptoms’ directly, and works independently of the underlying causes. (Proceed of course with the usual caution regarding Stuff On The Internet)

          2. fposte*

            Moodgym is one online program that some people have liked.

            Using, is it possible that one reason you don’t have enough time right now is that you’ve said yes to too many things? In short, that the problem is making it difficult for you to find time to get help with the problem? If so, I’d encourage you to at least look for a therapist now and maybe even schedule visits for the summer, because otherwise there’s a good risk you’ll give that time away as summer comes closer and just have the same problem.

            (I realize it might not be what made you say “not now,” but I thought it was worth raising the possibility.)

            1. UsingAnotherName*

              Well, sort of. Finishing grad school in May will free up a lot of time, though. Given how expensive therapy is, I’d also like to try some self-care, first. There’s been a serious lack of that in the last two years and I think that might be a contributing factor as well. I’m definitely open to therapy in the future, but want to start with other things first.

              1. Panda Bandit*

                Not all therapy is expensive. Run an internet search for free, low cost, and sliding scale therapy in your city. Universities will often have grad students who can do very inexpensive sessions as well. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

    2. MoinMoin*

      It sounds a bit like elements of imposter syndrome, like you’re not feeling confident in your own abilities and role and that’s affecting your interactions. There’s a lot of good information out there subject, it may be a good jumping off point for you. Good luck!

    3. Turtle Candle*

      I’d recommend therapy as soon as you can, as annoying as I’m sure that suggestion is. With these sort of long-term ingrained issues, I’ve found that there’s really no substitute for professional help. If you think you’ll have time in the summer, I’d strongly suggest starting to look for a therapist now, since it can take a little while.

      With that said, in the meantime, I’ve had some luck with a few things:

      – Cognitive Behavior Therapy workbooks. They exist for a variety of different conditions; I used one for anxiety, but you may find something more targeted to what you feel. Try to find one that’s explicitly self-guided; a lot of them are designed to be used with in-person therapy, and don’t work as well if you don’t have meetings with a therapist to go along with it.

      – Mindfulness meditation. I use the Headspace app (first ten meditation sessions are free, then there’s a smallish subscription charge), and I do it first thing in the morning. If you subscribe, there are also very short (under five minute) crisis meditations that you can do as-needed to get some grounding, which can be useful if you know you have something stressful coming up. I also like the book “Eight Minute Meditation.”

      – Role-play of stressful situations and confrontations. It’s so much easier to stand up for yourself if you’ve actually practiced it–and I don’t just mean in your head, I mean out loud. When I had to have a difficult conversation with a boss, I enlisted a friend to help me rehearse. Having heard myself say, “This situation is untenable; what can we do to resolve it?” out loud beforehand, even in a ‘pretend’ scenario, made it a lot less scary to say to my boss. (Conversely, rehearsing it in my head just made it scarier.) A therapist is a great resource for this, but in the meantime, see if you can get a buddy to ‘play’ an authority figure in various realistic scenarios to give you some practice.

      Good luck!

    4. Jennifer*

      “I think I’m over-apologizing for things (this seems to be the only way to get people to go away after I’ve made a mistake, they’ve pointed it out, I’ve owned up to and offered a solution) and feel like I have to verbally humiliate myself and say how stupid I am before the situation feels resolved and the person walks away. ”

      I have no solution because I feel the exact same way and am convinced that is really the only way to do it.
      (I work in public service.)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think that by routinely reading AAM and learning about workplaces you will find differences in yourself. Yes, it will take time, but it does not cost you money.

      While I do agree that therapy is probably a good goal, I also feel strongly that we need role models, stories, discussions with others, etc.– real life, current time stuff– in order to learn what we do not know. And you can find that here.

      You are saying that you feel you do not have much power/autonomy in this world. Well, one way to get power and get some say in how life is treating us, is to gain more knowledge. Knowledge is empowerment. So while you are working on school/work/life things, you can read here. Decide to be a sponge that soaks up everything. Just soak it up and have no expectation of any change any time soon. When it is time, you will use what you have learned here. Meanwhile, read as much as you can and just let it incubate in your mind. Think of it as an investment in your future.

      And you will have some fun doing all this reading, too. Bear in mind, that if you encounter something that is difficult to read about, you can skip it or you can decide to challenge yourself to read through and find out what others are thinking/saying.

    6. UsingAnotherName*

      In case this thread continues, I had a bit of a revelation I wanted to add. I think this might be more a result of the particular culture of this office bringing this trait out or at least emphasizing it. In my other jobs, which are more customer-service-based/public-facing, I don’t experience this “phenomenon,” except on rare occasions and certainly not to the degree I do at my full-time job. This occurred to me the other day and, while the trait has always been a part of me, it had in large part gone away thanks to an excellent support system and some personal growth I experienced.

  56. Eliza Jane*

    How do people deal with meetings around the lunch hour? I am finding that on my large projects, new meetings are always hard to schedule, and there is this block of time from 11:30-1 when most people avoid having meetings, so that space is usually really easy to schedule.

    I now have a recurring TThF 11:45-12 meeting on my calendar, and there are days when I have solid meetings from 9-3, with each of them a 1-hour session. There’s a culture at my worksite of doing a lot of development and politicking over “casual” lunches, and I now have only 1 day a week when it’s ever possible for me to join those, and fewer in practice.

    I feel really stupid rejecting meeting requests saying, “No, because I want to go out for lunch,” and a lot of times it is the only time people have free, but it’s really starting to annoy me that I’m scarfing down cold sandwiches at my desk because I don’t even have time to microwave something hot.

    1. fposte*

      You don’t have to say why. You can protect time blocks for your own priorities, and in most workplaces it’s expected that you would do so. Just say when you *can* meet.

    2. Lavender tea*

      People probably have free time from 11:30-1 because they want to have lunch too! It’s not unreasonable to decline a meeting if that’s the only time you have to eat all day. People don’t necessarily need to know what you are doing during that time – just block it off on your calendar or suggest a different time that will work with your schedule.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Can you block out that time on your calendar?

      I have a boss who is very bad at running meetings (everyone is x1.5 the scheduled length) so the easiest thing for me to do was set a reoccurring meeting every day from 4-5 p.m.

      1. Marillenbaum*

        I have one of those on my calendar for the last hour on Fridays. Technically, it’s there so I can make sure that I have time to reorganize and figure out what my priorities are for Monday morning, but it’s also nice to know that I have sacred time on my calendar so people can’t (ideally) keep me late when I need to start my weekend.

    4. Laura*

      I often have events around lunchtime that I cannot skip. Knowing this ahead of time, I simply divide my lunch up and eat some before the event, and the rest afterward.

      If you don’t need to go to the meeting that conflicts with your lunch, feel free to not go! Lunch is a valuable time.

    5. super anon*

      You work at a place where it’s possible to have 15 minute meetings? I wish that was the culture at my org! Meetings here are minimum an hour… usually 1.5 to 2.

  57. Glod Glodsson*

    Oh hey!
    In a few weeks I’m going to be managing a new team. First question: does anyone have any tips on how to get to know your team when you come from outside the company? This is a first time for me as I moved up internally to get to my current position.

    Second question. While interviewing, the board was very honest about the situation in this team – namely that due to management changes and poor overview this team has not been cohesive, with a lot of people underperforming, drama, etc. An interim manager is doing a good job and things are looking up but I think we still have a long way to go. Does anyone have any experience with coming in to manage a team that’s not in a great place? I’m expecting that my first few weeks might be rough but any specific experiences would be great to prep myself more :)

    1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I took over a pretty dysfunctional team (my company used to refer to me as a fixer because they would often send me to take over low-performing projects, then departments) and the best thing I did was set regular one on ones with each team member.

      During the first one, I would ask about their current projects and tasks. I would also set the expectation for whining and drama. Not in a harsh way, but with probing questions and asking a lot of “what do you think we could do to solve that.”

      Additionally, you need to spend some time with the Interim Manager. In my case, the interim manager basically got demoted back down to a general writer position when I came in. This relationship took a lot of trust building and commitment on my part. If it’s someone from another team who has just slid over…they can provide you valuable insight.

      1. Glod Glodsson*

        Thanks, this was super useful! I’ve been planning a start-up meeting with everyone individually but having follow-up meetings would be even better. Luckily the interim-manager is happy to go back to her own department and has been a great help so far.

  58. ThatLibraryChick*

    What do you do when you’re at a meeting or training, and someone makes a disparaging remark about millennials which causes everyone else to nod and start venting about what they don’t like about them, while meanwhile you yourself ARE a millennial? It’s fairly obvious that I am one so I don’t know how I’m supposed to react.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Can you speak up and say “as a millennial myself, I think that’s unfair, because _____”?

      1. Abbott*

        Then you get, “grow up, life is unfair!” Well, why wouldn’t it be with that attitude?

    2. Kelly L.*

      You know, I went to a thing a few years ago that recommended just saying something like “Ouch.” in that kind of situation. It might remind them that they’re making those remarks right in front of one of the people they’re bashing. The downside is it might lead to a saccharine “Oh, we don’t mean youuuuu.”

      Ugh, I hate the whole generation-bashing thing so hard.

    3. Starfleet Project Manager*

      Unfortunately, I’m not sure I have any valuable advice, but just want to offer sympathy. I often have people at my org make similar comments, even one person who talks about “the millenials” as if we are some invading force or whatever. I’m not sure there is much you can do — I think speaking up in a meeting about it is likely to reinforce people’s negative conceptions or simply fall on deaf ears. In my experience you just have to ride it out and trust that your colleagues think you are “exceptional” millenial — as aggravating/offensive as this, I think any other approach is an uphill battle and likely the wrong workplace hill to choose to die on. Hopefully over time you will change their offensive and stereotypical perceptions.

    4. Collie*

      I roll my eyes to myself and ignore it. They’re just bitter that their youth was wasted on not being as cool as we are. ;)

      1. Kelly L.*

        I hear so much of this stuff from people my own age who chafed when people made generalizations about us, and from people who did plenty of silly things when they were young. It’s semi-seriously made me wonder if most people get chucked in the River Lethe or get the flash of light from the MiBs when they turn thirty and forget their entire youth, and someone forgot to throw me in, and so I remember my own youth while other people seem to have blocked it out. It’s so weird.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          And this has been going on forever. My father was born in 1920. I never knew him to a straight index finger on one of his hands. I figured he must have broken it years before I was born. Of course that was the depression and getting bones set was a luxury. I was in my late teens/early twenties and I finally asked, “what happened to your index finger?”

          Well he told the story but his level of upset was as if it happened yesterday. The actually story happened 50 years earlier. I don’t remember the whole story, it had something to do with a fire arm going off. What struck me was how he still had not forgiven himself for the accident. Those emotions were still raw and unprocessed. (No one else was involved, so no one else was injured.)

          It was in that moment I started to understand the disconnect between himself and the young people around him. It’s not that they have forgotten, it is that they have CHOSEN to shut off that story in their minds.
          Maybe he did not want to admit he was not a perfect person. Maybe he did not want to admit he did not know everything in life. I have no clue, but that accident reminded him of a bunch of things that he did not want to be reminded of. So yes, he chose to forget that story and other stories when it came to my mistakes and the mistakes of other kids around me.

          I guess in a way it was a big step for him to even explain what happened. He grew up in a home where mistakes were unacceptable and asking someone to show/teach you something was never tolerated. It’s not an excuse, it does not make it right. But it at least gave me some insight as to why these “memory lapses” occur. Because, really, wtf is so hard about admitting you did something stupid when you were young? Or what is so hard about seeing a young person struggle in a manner similar to the way you did yourself? Why put them down for the very same thing you did?
          Well, the broken index finger story showed me a reason why. The critic has not accepted their own mistakes in life, how can they learn to accept other people’s mistakes.

    5. Charlotte Collins*

      As a Gen X-er, I feel for you, because we got the same thing. Also, the name for your generation isn’t as cool and has no connection to Billy Idol, so I’m doubly sorry.

      I think every generation goes through this when they’re still the “young upstarts.”

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        This, so much. Every single generation has been called lazy, whiny, self absorbed, fragile and all the other things people call millennials by older generations. This will be harped on until the next generation ages into the workplace and then it will be about them. Knowing that takes a lot of the sting out of these comments for me.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yep, and it doesn’t even have to be much older people. There’s a quote and I can’t remember who said or where I got it, but it says there is no one less tolerant of a group than someone who has just left it.

    6. motherofdragons*

      YMMV, but I like to diffuse weird situations like that with humor. I would say something like “Ugh yeah, those millenials, am I right?” with a knowing smile. In my current role I facilitate a lot of meetings, and I’m almost always the youngest person in the room (and I look even younger than my numerical age). The whole “millenials, ugh”/”young people these days” has come up a few times, and I handle it in this way. It’s received well with some guilty chuckles, and then we move on. I’m on friendly terms with a lot of the folks I meet with, I should note, so definitely know your audience!

    7. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      This is especially funny in light of the comments earlier this week where we talked about the fact that Millenials begin with 1980s babies, meaning that there are a lot of over 30 Millenials now.

      1. Anomanom*

        Over 30 millennial here :) I like to diffuse it with that – did you know millennials go up to like 36 now? And derail the conversation into what a big difference there is between a 22 year old millennial and a 36 year old, and maybe we shouldn’t disparage 15 year swatches of people.

        And depending on the group, remind them that they created the millennials :) So, if they’re entitled, they didn’t get that way on their own….

        I have zero patience for stereotyping based on age though, so I am way more likely to try to make people a little uncomfortable about their nonsense.

        1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

          My much sassier (or more quick-witted) worker would often start making Boomer comments when people made Millenial comments. After a few “not all Baby Boomers” comments were met with sharp looks, people got the hint.

    8. animaniactoo*

      “Dammit! I missed the memo! I’m supposed to be doing all these things as a millennial?”

      1. hermit crab*

        hahaha yes! As a non-smartphone-owning, spent-the-past-eight-years-at-my-first-job-out-of-college millennial, I love this.

    9. Anxa*

      Sometimes I challenge it.

      I was a with a group of professors bemoaning the fact their students only care about grades. I asked him about the undergrads he accepted for research opportunities. How did he evaluate them (GPA). Would he consider someone with a 2.5-3.0? (no).

      He literally was simultaneously creating an environment where he only valued grades while he begrudged the students’ response.

      1. Abbott*

        I’m about 2 years out of college and most definitely a millenial. My dad was recently complaining that my generation doesn’t care about grades and only cared about getting a job. He said back in his day only A+ students got jobs, which then and now is BS.

    10. Ad Astra*

      I guess this makes me glad that my office is mostly Millennials, so a comment like this would get a room full of people saying “HEY!”

      I like the “ouch” response best, especially if some of the people involved are your superiors and you don’t feel comfortable pushing back any harder than that. Or, you could shake your fist and say “Kids these days!” I think too many people mistakenly believe that “Millennials” refers to today’s teens, when really most of the generation is in the workforce now. I mean, 23-year-olds were born in 1993.

    11. Jen*

      One of my direct reports went on a rant about millennials (his rant was about how one of his reports is doing such-and-such because he’s “a millennial.”). I said with a smile “huh, well I’m a millennial and I don’t [idiot behavior]. Should I assume all Boomers (his generation) are technophobes?”

      “Oh but Jen, you aren’t a *real* millennial” “are you saying I’m old?”

      This was all a friendly back-and-forth and truthfully, I’m an old millennial anyway (born in 82). But it shut him up and we moved on to me telling him he had to coach his lousy employee not blame it on his entire generation!

    12. Jillociraptor*

      No advice but I feel you. I work in higher ed, and mostly interact with higher-level folks in my division. I’m pretty sure I’m the only Millennial in the room, and I often want to say, “UM, I’m RIGHT HERE.”

    13. TootsNYC*

      I’m not a millennial, but anytime people start talking about them, I say, “Yeah, these kids today! With their long hair and baggy pants and lack of work ethic. When I was a kid, we used to walk to school in the snow, uphill both ways.”

      It would be really funny coming from you.

  59. Amber Rose*

    One of the owners hates MS Office, so the office standard software is (supposed to be) Open Office. It is to Microsoft what GIMP is to Photoshop: a less functional, unintuitive and wholly incompatible freeware counterpart.

    Which I could cope with except that the quality department uses Word. And every customer ever uses Microsoft because of course they do. This is extremely frustrating because it’s my job to fill out the quality documents that don’t display properly and require an hour or more of tweaking every time the forms are updated before I can use them. And customers often send POs as .doc files for whatever reason and I process orders.

    Given all this, I want to make a case for buying Word. To the boss who hates Microsoft because it’s his card we use for purchasing. I’m wondering if anyone has some suggestions for framing this that may improve my odds.

    1. katamia*

      Are you sure that the people receiving your Open Office files can actually open them? I had computer issues at my last office job, wound up using Libre Office for awhile, and got royally screwed over because I didn’t realize that our office’s version of Word apparently couldn’t open Libre Office files, even though I’d saved them as .doc.

      Other people not being able to open or read your files would be a pretty big reason to get Word, if that’s actually the case.

      1. Susan C*

        As the obnoxious Linux user on duty I feel compelled to point out that OO does not actually force you to use .odf, and is perfectly capable of saving in multiple versions .doc or .docx (or pdf of course).

        (I’ve also never had issues with cross compatibility, but since I also dislike WYSIWIG editors in general I’ll take Amber at her word that it’s a problem)

        2. Abbott*

          I’ve had issues with cross-compatibility between OO and MS Office, but regardless, I agree with your dislike of WYSIWIG editors in general. Notepad++ has saved my sanity many times over. I even put a portable version of it on flash drive for use at work.

      2. TootsNYC*

        I was using Open Office on a netbook and discovered that I could NOT open those files later in Word. At all. I couldn’t even copy and paste them, I don’t think.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If I received a doc in a non-Office format, I’d wonder what was going on at that company. Do they have money issues? Are they riding dinosaurs to work? Do they not have IT support? Are they trying to be super hip? Is this the kind of company we should be working with?
      On the flip side, I have received GoogleDocs from little tiny family businesses that are expected to be behind the times, and in those cases I understood and downloaded all the drivers and took the extra step to open the files. I don’t expect a family run funeral home to have the latest Office package. But I would question it from an accounting firm, IT consultant, or marketing group.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We’re a manufacturer that has clients all over the world. :/

        And it’s really just one guy’s hatred of Microsoft.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Ooof, that would scare me. I would expect a manufacturer to be using mainstream programs, especially if they are sending specs and tech documents between countries where they can be transposed between programs.
          I’d take the angle that your company is looking unprofessional and you are requiring your clients to take extra steps to work with you. It would be great if you could get some feedback from your clients to support you.
          Good Luck!

    3. LCL*

      Show him on paper, for one week, or month, or pay period, or billing cycle or whatever time increment makes the most sense for your business, how much time you are spending on just tweaking/formatting documents to get them into a form you can use. If the numbers are readily available, also show him the money lost because customers got fed up with dealing with your cumbersome process.
      When people hear the word ‘free’ they tend to lose their minds. He thinks he is getting a good deal using free software. If he can be shown how much his freeware is actually costing him he may change his mind.

    4. Observer*

      Actually, OpenOffice is quite compatible with MS Office – I’ve used it to rescue more than Word file. I do like Libre Office (it’s fork of OO) a bit better, and they have been better about tweaking and upgrading the program.

      Of course, if people really can’t open your files even when you save them in Word format (and you have to tell it to do that, not just save with the .doc extension), then you have a very simple argument to make: Either we spend the money to get someone to fix the problem with our files, or we get a copy of Word.

    5. Mirilla*

      We use that too because we’re running Office 2000. A 16 year old program which won’t let us open newer office documents. No dinosaur rides but may as well be. It’s easier for me to bring office supplies from home than to explain why I need them so this is money related but the business is doing well so it’s a mindset really. A new job can’t come soon enough!

  60. Lavender tea*

    I need a new job! Broadly speaking, I want to manage people and get things done and it doesn’t necessarily matter what the industry/company is. I’m a manager now and I really enjoy what I do – setting goals, overseeing projects, helping employees grow, solving problems, improving efficiency, etc. I just happen to hate my current job and don’t see any further growth opportunities.

    I’m having trouble finding jobs that fill this description that don’t require me to have the exact skill that my direct reports would have. In other words, I want to manage teapot builders but I personally am not a teapot builder. I’m not unfamiliar with the field, but I couldn’t sit down and build a teapot myself. In my experience, there are a lot of teapot managers out there who are really good at building and just ended up becoming managers when that’s not what they really want/enjoy/excel at.

    So how do I, the great manager without the building skills, get that job?

    1. misspiggy*

      By showing how brilliantly you’ve helped teapot builders deliver extra special spouts in no time at all? My husband is a typical teapot builder, and like many of his colleagues, he’s often overwhelmed by the negotiation and hustling involved with getting teapot designs supported by various teams. He gets stuck worrying about all the technical variables that need to be looked into. He worked on a project with a cheery teapot manager who listened to him, got the process moving and got all the people onside to work on my husband’s ideas. Best project ever, back slaps all round.

  61. Customer service sucks*

    I have a client facing job, and overall I like it and am good at it. But SO many people are SUCH a-holes. And then after being rude to me, they complain about me to my boss. It’s hard not to take it personally. It makes me want to quit even though the majority of my relationships with clients are good. Sigh. :(

    1. pope suburban*

      I’m sorry. Please accept a soothing beverage of your choice. I have a client-facing job too, at a really dysfunctional company, so I get a *lot* of people who are upset– often justifiably– and coping with it poorly. I know how draining it can be. May your coming week be full of patient, understanding unicorn clients.

    2. NicoleK*

      Yes, I have a client that is demanding, entitled, and ungrateful. He issues weekly demands and has never, ever said thanks.

  62. Probably Unproductive*

    Not sure if it’s spring hitting the Midwest, another stage of my cycle of burnout, natural workflow, or me being lazy, but I am having such a hard time focusing. I feel like I’m having a really hard time stay on top of my projects, working full days (for me, that means working an eight hour day rather than the 10 or 12 of the past year and a half I’ve been at this job), and focusing when I’m at work. I just want to be outside, practicing guitar, painting, cooking, doing anything BUT work.

    What do you all do when you experience a dip in productivity? Ride it out and trust it’ll balance out, or buckle down and force yourself?

    2. afiendishthingy*

      Ugh, that’s me this month too. I have to go with a combination of “trusting it will balance out” and saying “Too bad that you don’t want to, you need to focus on this project for the next 30 minutes.”

  63. Starfleet Project Manager*

    My question boils down to this: I feel like I am constantly apologizing to people for not knowing the answers to questions that are outside the purview of my job and I don’t know whether I should be.

    The context: I work in a support role at a small non-profit (4 of us on staff) and the other team members (leadership/program people) are often off-site. So frequently I am on the only person in our office space and therefore the only one around to answer questions from members and visitors (our office is inside a large coworking space so many people come in and our org has little control over that). I’d say for something like 50-75% of the questions people ask me, I am only able to respond with some variation of “I don’t know/you need to speak to someone else” (I don’t know the homework for this week, I don’t know where our CEO is, I don’t know about other offices in the building, whatever). I feel like I’m saying “I’m sorry” constantly even though most of these questions are decidedly outside the scope of my role. Furthermore, as a woman I’m certainly cognizant of the way that women are socialized to apologize constantly and I don’t want it to be a reflex.

    So my question is: do you expect people to say “I’m sorry” if they are answering your question with “I don’t know/you need to speak to someone else”? I want to be polite but I also don’t like the feeling of admitting fault when I am asked things that I have no way or responsibility of knowing.

    1. fposte*

      I apologize in situations like that. And I *am* sorry–it’s a pain to have to keep asking other people, and we’re often not the first person they’ve asked. To me that’s a human way of acknowledging the likely frustration of the person, not a suggestion that this is a deficit in me.

      1. TootsNYC*

        yeah, think of it as “expressing sympathy” and not “apologizing.” That might help you feel better about it, and choose different words.

    2. motherofdragons*

      I don’t expect folks to apologize, although I realize it’s one of those social niceties that smooths over a “no” and makes one seem less curt. Like you, I also am aware of the gendered component of this issue. I try to catch it in myself and replace it with “Unfortunately” as in, “Unfortunately, I don’t know.” And then follow it with a solution, if I know of one. “Unfortunately, I don’t know what the homework is, but you could try calling Jane at XXX-XXXX.” If you really don’t have the answer, I find a sympathetic look and a “I wish I could help!” goes a long way.

      1. fposte*

        Can you explain why those seem different to you? They seem to come out of the same barrel as “I’m sorry”–they’re associated with gender and placation but to me seem legitimate in the situation.

        1. Kelly L.*

          I think I see it–“sorry” implies it’s your own fault you don’t know, while “unfortunately” is less personal–it’s more “welp, it’s a bummer for you that I don’t know, but I don’t.”

          1. motherofdragons*

            This exactly. Thank you Kelly! It acknowledges that the situation is not ideal for the asker, but does not imply fault.

            1. fposte*

              Huh, I don’t see “I’m sorry” as fault-related at all. Otherwise it wouldn’t be the go-to condolence expression.

              1. fposte*

                Now that I think about it, I do say “I’m sorry” when something is my fault, but I don’t think that’s because “I’m sorry” means it’s my fault–it’s because I’m, well, sorry.

              2. afiendishthingy*

                I think “Sorry” has two different meanings, one meaning “I apologize” (i.e., I am at fault), and one implying sorrow in the sense of distress – you’re in a disappointing or tragic situation, and I wish you weren’t. If I whacked you in the head I would say “I’m sorry,” but if you just told me you had a headache I might say “I’m sorry you don’t feel well.”

                I use “unfortunately” when I mean “this is unfortunate for you, I’m really not bothered by it” or when I mean “Somebody screwed this up, but it wasn’t me”. Like “Unfortunately, I’m not able to see clients on Saturdays,” or “Unfortunately, nobody in the Teapot Design department knows where that file is, so I can’t answer that question.”

                I think in Starfleet Project Manager’s case either could be appropriate.

                1. Kelly L.*

                  Yes, I think it even came up on Seinfeld once? There was a whole discussion about the difference between the fault-sorry and the uninvolved third party sorry.

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  It’s an expression of regret. And it’s ambiguous – am I apologizing for something I did or am I sympathetic that you had difficulty?

                  I am not sure why it is happening but more and more I see people assuming that “I’m sorry” means the person is admitting fault. I guess, just speak in complete sentences so that people know what you are apologizing for. I do like the idea of going with “unfortunately” because saying “I’m sorry” dozens of times a day can wear a person down.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I often say I’m sorry too! But like fposte said, it’s out of empathy.

    4. Starfleet Project Manager*

      Thanks all! I appreciate the perspective. I’ve definitely been trying to use “Unfortunately” in emails where appropriate and will otherwise try to think of “sorry” as an expression of sympathy. I probably also need to remember that my impression that I’m say “sorry” 45 times a day and therefore look clueless/incompetent isn’t seen by anyone else since it’s to many, many different people I’m talking to.

    5. Jennifer*

      I’m in this position all the time and yes, I have to apologize out the wazoo.

      Note that in my job we are expected to know everything though, and really we’re not allowed to say “no, I can’t answer that,” so that’s even MORE fun.

      Would I expect them to? I don’t personally care that much, but a lot of people DO care in my unfortunate experience: They expect a service out of you and you didn’t provide it, so some just straight up get angry.

  64. pope suburban*

    Anyone have tips for redirecting/stopping someone who is hell-bent on being rude? My boss has a problem where I bring him a legitimate work issue, and he will ignore it in favor of making a pointless (and, as of this date, incorrect) criticism of me. For example, he asked me to find a teapot license for us. I told him that the bank is likely holding it, as we had to mail all the licenses out two years ago. He did not address the issue of the teapot license at all, but did tell me it couldn’t have been two years ago (It was two months shy of two years, oh no). On another occasion, when an employee refused to do a critical spout rebuild Boss had scheduled, Boss ignored that entirely (It’s part of my job to communicate between field and office staff; I wasn’t being petty, I wanted to know if we should send someone else), instead lecturing me that it was not a spout rebuild (as he had described it on the calendar). Imagine my surprise when, the next day, he gave me information about a spout rebuild.

    It’s unpleasant to deal with, personally, but it’s also making it difficult to get work done. Boss likes to maintain a lot of control over the decision-making (It’s a small business), so we don’t have a lot of room to make our own plans. When he makes pointless jabs at me *and ignores the question* I am left with…well, a whole lot of nothing. I don’t care whether or not he ever realizes he’s rude, or that he’s wrong about me being stupid (There is a lot of awful backstory here, but long story short, that’s not speculation), I just need to figure out how to steer him back on track so I can get things done. Right now, my workflow is running aground on this reef of petty complaints, and I want to turn that around if I can.

    1. fposte*

      Maybe he’s saying it ruder than it sounds here, but to me this sounds not like a rudeness situation but a deflection tendency. The real question, to me, is how to get him to answer the question. One possibility is to change to email, so he has time to think things through before he responds. Another is asking him today for an answer tomorrow. I can’t swear it’ll fix things, but it sounds like you’ll get a better response if he feels in control of the timing.

      Overall, though, it sounds like a situation where you’re each not real thrilled with the other, and that’s not an easy thing to fix. Do you like this job otherwise? Maybe it’s time to move on.

      1. pope suburban*

        He definitely is ruder than he sounds here. He’s not generally very personable with the inside staff, and while I generally get the worst of it, this is an issue all of us face when dealing with him. I’ve accepted that he’s going to be rude and condescending (The global read on this is that he doesn’t have a great deal of respect for internal/admin work), I just need to get to a point where I can, y’know, get work done.

        I am trying so hard to leave the job already. I don’t like the nature of the role, and there is zero room for growth. While the other inside staff are pleasant and professional, and I have never had an issue with a client, the boss makes this place awful. He yells at the designers, he plays divide and conquer, and he obstructs us from doing our jobs to the point that our cash flow is seriously impacted.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      You need to basically set aside his complaints. Use something like, “I’ll take note of that for future reference, but what are we doing about the teapot spout rebuild?”
      As for the licence issue, is there a reason you couldn’t contact the bank and found out if they had possession of the licence? Sounds like on stuff like that you need to exhaust every avenue available to you to solve the problem before bringing it back to him.

      1. pope suburban*

        Noted. And for the license, that was more or less the conversation: he asked me to find it, I said I thought the bank had it and I’d reach out to our loan officer, and he was pointlessly rude. Sure enough they did have it, our loan officer was very helpful, and not another word was said.

        1. motherofdragons*

          Sounds exhausting and terribly frustrating. Probably a good thing you are trying to get away! I wonder if, in the meantime, you could be as brief as possible with your boss? In this example, when your boss asked if you could find the license, you could just say “OK!” and then go do the thing, and report back. It seems like your boss will use any info you give him as an opportunity to knock you, so if you give him the bare minimum, he might not have much to work with. At any rate, best of luck with your job search!

          1. pope suburban*

            Thank you for the suggestion. That’s probably very true. I normally try to be transparent with people, and while that works well with the other staff here, maybe Boss needs to be on a slightly stricter information diet. I’ve no doubt he’ll still find a way to shine (Like the time he scolded me, twice, for a grammatically-correct email that everyone else understood), but anything that lessens his opportunities is valuable.

            1. motherofdragons*

              Oof. Some people just love to find and/or manufacture fault in others. I hope those instances roll off your shoulders a bit more easily!

        2. Master Bean Counter*

          Yeah it sounds like less chit-chat and more action is they way to go with this guy. You have my sympathy for having to work with him.

  65. K-Ci and Jo-Jo*

    Hey ya’ll! Longtime lurker here and would like to get everyone’s two cents.

    Thanks to this site, I received a job offer a few weeks ago! Unfortunately, since it’s a state job in education, the screening process has been dreadfully slow (HR screw-ups, just a slow process in general, etc.) and I have been instructed not to tell my boss or coworkers since technically I have not received a “formal offer” (contingent on fingerprinting, background check, etc.). To make matters worse, though, if all goes well I feel pretty certain I’m going to be handing in my notice right smack in the middle of the countdown to our big event. I wish it didn’t have to be this way but it probably will be. I know that this is all a part of business, but I expect they will be doubly disappointed because of my timing. I’m aware that this isn’t my fault, but I would love to save face, especially since this is an extremely toxic environment and I don’t want anyone saying anything foul to my future managers. Does anyone have any language to use when I finally break the news to my boss? Or any mental preparation suggestions? I was already sort of dreading the conversation but because of the inevitable timing I’m honestly feeling worse about it.

    1. starsaphire*

      Treat every response you get as though they had just made the only appropriate response (that is to say, they’d just congratulated you on the new job and given you their best wishes for the future).

      No matter what they say, smile and say, “Thank you; I’m really excited about the new opportunity,” and then disengage and walk away.

      The view is great from the high road, trust me. :)

    2. Laura*

      I was in your shoes just a few months ago!

      When you tell your boss, just be really straightforward and focus on how you can best help the company transition. When others bring it up, stay professional and focused on making your remaining time there productive. It’s actually way easier than it sounds!

    3. Over Development*

      I just did this myself.

      The best thing I could say is, know your boundaries and what you are willing to do before you give notice. My boss asked a lot of me and I had to be willing to decided what I would and would not do or deal with.

    4. StellsBells*

      Be prepared for the guilt trip! When I’ve left every job, even good ones!, they always try to run me over with the guilt wagon.

      You don’t want to let it catch you off guard and then agree to or say something you’ll regret :)

      Good luck on the new role! Just remind yourself every day during the transition of how excited you are for the new job!

  66. super anon*

    also one more regarding interviewing from the employers side of the table!

    those of you who do hiring – how do you get better at it/make it less awkward/feel like awkward? i did my first interviews ever last week and i was SO bad at it. my coworker who did them with me was kicking me under the table to get me to shut up because i was too detailed about the role, and i did a terrible job answering candidates questions and didn’t know the answers to some of them. oh, and i have anxiety so when other people are anxious i can feel it and it makes me anxious too.. which makes me feel even more awkward!

    is it something you just get better at the more you do it? i’m scared i’m never going to be able to get the hang of making an interview a conversation and flow naturally and comfortably! i feel like a my terrible performance in these interviews paints me as the boss someone would never want to work for. :/

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      Are you the hiring manager? I am not a hiring manager but have interviewed before. I think a lot of it is getting really focused beforehand on what you need for this particular role and what kinds of questions you can ask to determine if they can fit your needs. As for questions they ask you, maybe reading up on “questions to ask your interviewers”? Then mentally (or out loud) rehearse your answers to those questions.

      And yes, you will get better at it the more you do it, just like anything else!

      1. pugsnbourbon*

        This is great advice. I’ve assisted in several rounds of hiring and like to create a matrix that lays out each round of interviews – phone screen, initial interview, second interview – and the things that I need to know about the candidate and what she needs to know about the job at each stage. If we’re hiring several people for the same role, it helps the hiring managers stay consistent.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t really have a suggestion, but I can tell you that the best interview I had was when the recruiter actually read my resume and wanted to talk about it. He brought up past jobs and asked thoughtful questions about the work and about my volunteering. I knew it was a company I wanted to work for.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Some of it comes with practice and the other part comes with preparation.

      Try writing a short description of the role that highlights the key things you are looking for and have it in front of you if you need it.

      As AndersonDarling mentioned, read and take notes on their cover letter and resume. I use a combination of highlighter and pen and I know the things I want to probe.

      In terms of candidate questions, now that you have been through a round, you have an idea of what you might get asked. Additionally, google “questions to ask the interviewer.” Most of the time people will ask you pretty standard questions about the role, your management style, and culture.

  67. Alston*

    So, after a year of trying to find someone we FINALLY hired a new programmer. She got through our ridiculous 7 part interview process and started two weeks ago. Yesterday she quit. Said the job was different than she thought it was going to be, and she wasn’t interested in what she was actually going to be doing.

    Personally I think our job posting makes us sound cooler than we are. Here’s hoping it doesn’t take another year to get someone new!

    1. Sadsack*

      Was the position misrepresented to her during the interview process? I’d be concerned that you didn’t communicate what the position really entails, either in the job posting or the interview.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yes, if this is the case, you probably need to review your posting and the communication process that surrounds hiring for this position. Maybe those tweaks will get you what you’re looking for.

    2. StellsBells*

      After only two weeks?!? Do you know specifically what it was that made her leave? If she went through 7 parts of interviews and still had such an incorrect idea of what the role was that she knew within two weeks that she hated it so much that she needed to quit without another job lined up then something is really wrong with the hiring process.

      (FWIW this sounds like a you were a backup plan and the company she really wanted came around with an offer after started with you)

      1. Mephyle*

        Oh, I didn’t think of the last possibility you mentioned, but it’s quite plausible. There are many people who feel that telling the truth is awkward and to be avoided at all costs, and will make up an excuse instead, regardless of whether it reflects worse on them than if they had told the truth.

    3. Mephyle*

      It sounds like this situation needs to be analyzed with a debriefing and a look at the hiring process and the position. What did she think the job was going to be? How is that different from what it really is? How or from where did she get her mistaken impression of the job? If the misunderstanding was from her side, how can you detect a situation like this before it’s too late if it happens again in the future with another candidate? If it was from your side, what can you do to prevent it next time and communicate the nature of the job more accurately? And, finally, is the reality of the job what you think it is, or is there a mismatch between what you think you need and what you actually need the person in this position to do?

      1. Alston*

        I actually have zero to do with the hiring. But we are a small company, so I have some details.
        She got a demo on something that is not part of our normal work, by that we basically use to impress people so they will give us funding /press. So maybe she thought that would be more a part of the normal work. I wasn’t there for that or any of the technical interviews.

        I think ultimately it was a confluence of things-our ad makes it sound more glamerous than it is, this was her first job out of school, we pay poorly (which she had commented on upon receiving our offer that the people doing the hiring have zero interviewing/hiring experience, and that the powers that be aren’t 100% clear on what we need.

        And also I think that after having had so few decent applicants when they finally got a decent one they may have tried to sell her on the company instead instead of making sure it would actually be a good fit.

        @StellsBella I wonder if you might be right about that.

  68. Ann Furthermore*

    I had my performance review last week. It wasn’t bad, but just more of the same. Meh.

    I spent all of last year working on a project that was unspeakably horrific. I’ve ranted about it here before. It was, hands down, the worst project experience I’ve ever had. It was bad enough that I was seriously considering quitting, because I was convinced it was the only way I would ever have any peace from these wretched, unreasonable, and irrational people I tried my hardest to support, with no success.

    My performance reviews are normally variations on the same thing: you’re awesome at what you do, but you have a short fuse. I know this about myself, and it is something that I try to be cognizant of. In my review last year, my boss complimented me on the progress I’d made in this area. And it was true – I had really worked on it. But then this year’s review was back to the same old thing. She said she knew the situation on this project had been difficult, and I told her that saying it was “difficult” is like saying Donald Trump is just “colorful.” Doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. And I told her that yes, a big part of that was on me, and I own that. But another big part of it was my mounting frustration and despair from repeatedly asking for help from my management and not getting it. The team was completely abandoned. Everyone had moved on to different things, and were busy with other issues, and we were left holding the bag. All I got from her were non-answers and platitudes like, “You can’t control what people do, you can only control your own behavior.” This is good advice, which I’ve heeded in the past, and which I’ve given to others.

    Bottom line, the message I walked away with was no matter how bad things get, no matter how horribly people behave, no matter how much abuse they may heap upon you (berating you in meetings, calling you late at night demanding your help, texting you on the weekends telling you to log on and check your email, accusing you of lying instead of admitting that maybe they made a mistake, just to name a few examples), you need to keep your mouth shut, lay down, and let people crap all over you and bully you. Very, very, disappointing.

    1. Ann Furthermore*

      *This is good advice, which I’ve heeded in the past, and which I’ve given to others, but at some point you need to stand up for your self and say, “Hey, it is NOT okay to treat people that way.”

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      (berating you in meetings, calling you late at night demanding your help, texting you on the weekends telling you to log on and check your email, accusing you of lying instead of admitting that maybe they made a mistake, just to name a few examples)

      This isn’t normal stuff to have happening on the regular. If it is (and these aren’t aberrations*) and you’re being told you can’t push back on it, it might be worth thinking about whether it would make sense for you to start looking for somewhere less dysfunctional.

      * If they are aberrations, then that changes the calculation.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        They aren’t aberrations from this particular group of people, unfortunately. One late night call came at 11 PM, and I got out of bed and fired up my laptop to see if I could figure out what was going on…while my husband was muttering, “Are you f-ing kidding me?” in the background. Then they called me back 10 minutes later and said, “Oh, never mind, we’re just going to figure it out tomorrow.” But by that point, I was awake, and unbelievably ticked off, so I continued to work the issue, and it didn’t take long to find out that the problem was they had not followed the painfully detailed instructions I’d sent them 3 months prior, and reviewed with them several times. Grrr.

        There are other things happening too that are telling me it’s time to at least stick my toe in the water and see what’s out there. Scary though…haven’t looked for a job in 11 years!

  69. NGL*

    I got contacted personally by a recruiter for the first time this week! (I’ve received generic messages before, usually for marketing roles that don’t really align with my current experience or industries – this one was my industry and lined up exactly with my experience) It was a nice ego boost – it’s for a director position (I’m a senior manager right now, director is the next step in the hierarchy for me), at one of the biggest players in the industry, in a division I would kill to work in. But I passed this time – I’ve only been in this job for 6 months and I really like it here. I’m not ready to jump ship yet. Fingers crossed that a similar position will be available in a few years!

    1. anonanonanon*

      Congrats! This just happened to me yesterday and it’s for a big player in my industry, so I was pretty flattered.

  70. Anon for always*

    How do you deal with a co-worker who is manipulative? I have a new co-worker (hired in the last year), who plays the poor me game when my boss is around. When my boss is around he acts as if he’s being excluded from the social interactions that occur within our department. He walks around as if we’ve shot his favorite puppy, and I know he’s talked to my boss about how he feels like he’s been ostracized (as she’s mentioned that the the rest of us are being “mean” to the new co-worker). This behavior is in direct contrast to when my boss is out of the office. When my boss is not around he’s chatty and sociable and generally happy.

    I will add that this co-worker isn’t particularly competent. He does well with lower level tasks, but struggles with more complex tasks. I also suspect (although don’t know) that he was told that he would be promoted quite quickly as he was taking a job a few steps below his correct role. He has not been promoted, and given how much he has struggled with some basic tasks I think it’s unlikely he will be promoted anytime in the near future.

    1. Dawn*

      Whenever your boss mentions anything be quick to say “Oh wow, I had no idea Fergus felt that way. We all go to lunch every Tuesday and Friday, and he’s always included in the weekly candy raffle. Wakeen even asked if he wanted to help with the March Madness brackets and Fergus was happy to do so!”

      And then, because I’m me, I’d absolutely double down on including Fergus and falling all over myself talking about how “Oh man the boss said you felt like we didn’t include you, oh my god how terrible, here let me tell you the details of how I organize my filing cabinet just in case you ever need to go in there.” But that’s me.

    2. afiendishthingy*

      If your boss mentions again that you’ve been “mean”, say “Huh, I’m not sure what you mean, we’ve all been respectful and friendly to Fergus and he’s seemed happy here. Can you be more specific?” Make sure that you are in fact cordial and respectful towards Fergus, but there’s no need to go overboard. As for the incompetence, I would tell your boss if it is affecting your own work. Otherwise, try to INWARDLY roll your eyes and move on with your life. (I am really bad at this part.) With any luck he won’t last long.

      1. Anon for always*

        My boss has been in direct ear-shot when we invite him to participate in social events. She can hear when we are asking how his weekend is or otherwise shooting the breeze. But, the new co-worker is like dealing with a 7 year old who hasn’t gotten their way. I do like asking my boss to be more specific so I will try that if it comes up again.

        Sadly, he’ll probably last years. My boss while otherwise pretty good is very attached to him, and I think overly relates to him. She makes comments about how the rest of us can’t possibly understand what it’s like growing up the way that she and new co-worker grew up (they both faced a lot of pressure to do well). So she will protect him until it becomes clear it’s hurting her own reputation with her boss.

        1. Engineer Girl*

          Talk to your boss about it. “Boss, you’ve heard us invite Fergus and include him on our activities” You’ve seen that yourself! What more would you like to see from us?
          To any “be nicer” responses you need to ask “what does that look like?”
          At some point you need to have a 2nd conversation. “Boss, you yourself have seen how we treat Fergus and it isn’t mean”. “I feel like I’m walking on eggshells and I don’t like it. I’m happy to treat Fergus as an adult but at some point he has to take control of his happiness.”

        2. TootsNYC*

          Honestly, I think I’d say:
          “Interesting, because when you’re not here, Fergus is a perfectly chatty guy, and he seems to fit in well. I think he likes for you to feel sorry for him.”

          Well, maybe not.

          Engineer Girl’s got some good points. In addition to the “take control of his happiness,” I’d say, “Fergus is as welcome as he makes himself.”

  71. anon for this*

    Is it considered rude to quietly leave a meeting to go to the bathroom?

    I had a 2 & a half hour meeting this morning and I slipped out halfway through to run to the bathroom. Afterwards my manager said he was disappointed I’d leave like that and when I explained I just needed to run to the bathroom he said I shouldn’t have had any water or coffee this morning if I knew it would be a problem or I should have held it until the meeting was over. I have a small bladder so holding it for a 2 and a half hour meeting would be torture. I was so shocked he said this that I didn’t have a reply ready.

      1. anon for this*

        It was never a problem in previous companies which is why I didn’t think it would be a big deal. I was so surprised he actually brought it up.

    2. junipergreen*

      That is outrageous. Your boss was out of line. Not sure how I would respond either, but… does he often make outrageous demands (such as ignoring biological needs)?

      1. anon for this*

        Not really, which is part of the reason k was so surprised. Long meetings like this are a rarity so maybe that was his issue.

        We have a decent relationship but this has definitely soured my opinion of him a bit.

        1. Kelly L.*

          I wonder if the time had slipped his mind and he didn’t realize how long the meeting was running. Otherwise, I got nuthin’.

    3. Ann Furthermore*

      Your manager is an idiot. If you need to step out to use the restroom, that’s perfectly reasonable. If you leave and are gone for half an hour with no explanation, then yeah, that’s a problem. But to scoot out for 5 minutes to use the restroom is not a big deal. Are you really going to miss something earth-shattering and critical if you’re away for 5 minutes? Probably not.

      If someone like the CEO or a VP is speaking, I’ll try to wait if I can, and leave when one person is handing off the mic to the next person or when there’s some other sort of pause.

      1. anon for this*

        Yeah, that’s my thought too. I think because it was an important meeting with the VP he freaked a little. He’s a new manager so sometimes he worried over things reflecting poorly on him. It was just really strange and I hope it doesn’t become a habit because then i will say something.

    4. esra*

      What! You’re boss is out of whack here. Everywhere I’ve worked this is absolutely normal etiquette. And yes, many people would need a break during a nearly three hour meeting for the washroom. No one I know would consider this rude.

    5. Kelly L.*

      He’s a jerk. IME it’s uncommon for a meeting to run that long without an official break to happen, for just that reason.

    6. Ad Astra*

      I can see why someone might think it’s rude to leave a particularly formal meeting in the middle of it, but “you shouldn’t have had any water or coffee before this meeting” is a ridiculous suggestion. And I can see how announcing “Excuse me, I’m going to the bathroom real quick” would be more disruptive than just leaving without explanation and coming back a few minutes later.

      In the future, could you talk to the meeting’s organizers and suggest a 5-minute break halfway through the meeting? Even if you’re the only person who stepped out, I doubt you’re the only person who needs to use the bathroom, get a drink, or stretch their legs in a 2.5-hour meeting. If that’s not an option, I really think you handled it the best possible way.

      1. Daisy Steiner*

        Even in high school we were allowed to just leave to go to the bathroom without asking (again, within reason – not like 5 times in one class). Heck, even in middle school all we had to do was make the ‘T’ sign (I think Americans call this the ‘time-out’ sign? For us it stood for ‘toilet’) as we left the room.

        1. Ad Astra*

          Really? We always needed to ask for a bathroom pass in high school. The most relaxed teachers would just have a pre-made pass that you could take with you, while the sticklers made you fill out a sheet of paper and get it signed. But we couldn’t just leave.

          1. Daisy Steiner*

            I went to a small rural high school in New Zealand so I guess YMMV quite a lot! It blows my mind to think about things like toilet passes, so strict! Our school was poor but it was really good for the most part about trusting us and treating us like adults.

    7. Analyst*

      What? No, omg no rational person would berate someone for going to the restroom. If I was in a 2.5 hour meeting, I would definitely be making a trip.

    8. Daisy Steiner*

      That’s insane. If this was a one-hour meeting, maybe – MAYBE – I could see the reasoning, though I still wouldn’t agree that he should be policing that kind of thing. But 2.5 hours? That’s ridiculous.

    9. Nanc*

      Yeah, I had this boss once. I shut it down by saying sorry, it was that time of the month and I had to make a change (it wasn’t and I didn’t but I’m an adult and I know when I have to go potty!). I’ve found any mention of Auntie Flo tends to shut down that train. And if it doesn’t, I have no problem getting graphic.

      Also, 2.5 hour meetings get a stretch break at 1.25, right?

      1. Sadsack*

        I think having to urinate is a valid reason to use the bathroom, I would not use my period as an excuse.

    10. Jennifer*

      It depends on your office culture. In your case, NO, it is not okay.

      I’ve been told that it’s okay if I had to go to the bathroom during a meeting, but in reality, HECK NO, it would not be okay with some people.

    11. Mephyle*

      It is actually less rude than the alternative. Keep this in mind for a ready reply if the subject has to be revisited.

    12. Engineer Girl*

      Remind your boss that women have more equipment jammed into a smaller space. That means the bladder gets squeezed earlier and has less area to expand than a man’s bladder would. Watch him turn red.

    13. Doriana Gray*

      You shouldn’t have had anything to drink? What?! Your boss is a loon – bathroom breaks for a two hour meeting are normal.

    14. TootsNYC*

      “Well, I thought it was preferrable to peeing on the conference room chairs.”

      What a maroon!

  72. Doriana Gray*

    Today marks day 60 in my new division, and this week was when they had to finalize reviews. Since I didn’t work with them in 2015, my new manager didn’t do a review for me, but apparently neither did my former manager (and she was supposed to). That’s probably for the best though since she’s been essentially demoted after my exit, so I’m probably not her favorite person right now.

    I met with my new manager yesterday to talk about my progress and expectations for 2016. This was good because I’d wanted to speak with him about some concerns I had with this job. I came in thinking I was going to dig in and get right to work, but I’ve been assisting other people on their files for the past two months, and I’m anxious to just get on with it and get my own workload. I’ve been training interns/trainees for the past couple of weeks, so I know they thought I was doing something right, but they said I’d be thrown into the regular work rotation three weeks ago, I went on PTO for a week, and when I came back, I only had one new file assigned to me versus the two to three new files assigned to my teammates per day. I was frustrated as all hell and worried that they didn’t think I could handle the back end of our work (which is the complex part of the job), and that’s why I was still being essentially treated like an assistant (which was not the job I signed up for).

    Luckily, my boss told me he thinks I’m “doing a bang-up job” and he said I’ve been tremendously valuable to the group in the short time I’ve been with them because our department has been getting slammed with work lately (which is true), so me jumping in and taking things off other people’s plates has been extremely helpful to everyone. He also surprised me because he brought up everything I was going to broach – he said he can tell I’m eager to get my own desk, and they have every intention of giving me more of my own work, and I’m not going to be assisting everyone else for long. He finally gave me my authority contract to sign, which authorizes me to handle work for our clients on my own up to $20k (anything higher than that still needs his approval), and I was very excited about this because that’s the final piece that people in my position get before being set loose on these files. He also assigned me three new files yesterday, so that was encouraging.

    However, he also told me I may still be assisting others with their work for the next couple of weeks because we have new hires starting and until the assistants get up to speed, if we get slammed again, I’m the only one who has the capacity to help out since I don’t have a full desk. I asked for a firm end date to this, but again, he couldn’t give me one, which irritated me a bit. I don’t mind helping out when it’s needed (everyone does it when they have time thanks to our buddy system), but I also don’t want to look up six months from now still doing this in between thing, and I told him that. Once again he said that won’t happen, but I don’t know if I believe that.

    So I’ve given myself until the 90 day mark to see where everything ends up. If I’m still doing what I’m doing now at that point, it may be time for me to come up with an exit strategy. I’d really hate to leave another division so soon, but if I’m not getting the experience I need to advance in my career, I’ll have no choice. I just don’t know how to say that to my manager without it sounding like a threat. I do tend to be a little more…aggressive in my verbal communication, especially when I’m annoyed.

    1. Graciosa*

      You’re getting the develop needed to advance in your position, positive feedback, and signature authority – but if your boss, who has given you a clear, credible reason for needing to use you as flexible staffing at the moment, does not give you exactly what you want in the next 30 days, you’ll look for another job.

      90 days into this one –

      Because you think it should be moving faster –

      Or perhaps that your desire for your own desk outweighs his need to properly manage the work of his department –

      Wow.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yeah, I’m not getting the need for an exit strategy here. Your boss has given you a legitimate, understandable reason for what’s going on, and I can’t blame him for not wanting to give you a 100% firm end date other than “a few weeks.” I think you need to be patient and see where things are in a month or two.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        My reasoning is because they’ve said this to another one of my coworkers who has been there for years (in a different capacity) – she came over to the team almost a year ago and was supposed to be doing the work I’m currently doing. Nearly a year later, she’s still be used as an assistant (and they won’t take away her previous work when she’s told them repeatedly that she can’t keep up with both). Look, I don’t have a problem helping out where I can – I’ve even asked to do more of the end work on my coworker’s desks, and I’ve gotten it – but my biggest concern is, with the new people we’re hiring on (who have more experience than I do), they’ll be given full desks because they’ve done the work and I’ll be stuck in the assistant role that I didn’t sign up for. They’ve done it once already with my colleague mentioned above pulling the old bait-and-switch about what her duties will be, all the while praising her abilities and work ethic, so I don’t want to end up in that position. That’s all. I just came out of one disappointing position where the job turned out to be not as advertised, so I’m trying to be more alert to these things this time around.

        1. Doriana Gray*

          And I wouldn’t leave until a year either. That’s typically how long you have to stay in a division before moving on to another one.

    1. OwnedByTheCat*

      Oops I hit enter way too soon.

      A few weeks ago I wrote in asking about a) a two day panel interview and b) how to advance to a director level position early in my career. All the advice was awesome and…two days after I left Austin, they made a great job offer. It’s going to a be a daunting move but I’m thrilled.

      And a shout-out to Alison. I applied to 3 Director of Development positions and all three called me back. It was my first foray into a director level job hunt (and all out of state) and I know it was my resume and cover letter that helped me land those interviews.

      I don’t start until July (getting married in June, negotiated the start date) so now I’m trying to stay engaged at work and not check out. Oh, and pack!

  74. Paloma Pigeon*

    I’m really starting to buckle under the weight of serving as Interim ED at my tiny nonprofit, while my board provides no support. Besides AAM, does anyone know of a good way to get mentoring/advice for leadership positions? I’m a member of AFP and have access to mentoring stuff through them, but it’s more long term and based on fundraising. I’ve used Taproot but not sure if it’s appropriate. What I need is someone I can talk through issues that I’m facing, as if they were a manager to me. Any thoughts?

    1. PontoonPirate*

      In my area, one of the local colleges operates a center for philanthropy that has seminars, professional groups and online resources; I believe one of the groups is for nonprofit EDs. You might want to check out universities/colleges in your area to see if there’s anything similar. Also The Management Center.

    2. Mngreeneyes*

      I am in Minnesota and we have a couple of wonderful resources. Minnesota council on nonprofits has great resources. They have a booklet on Practices and Principals that has a section on leadership. You can download it free here. http://www.minnesotanonprofits.org/nonprofit-resources/principles-and-practices/principles-and-practices-for-nonprofit-excellence-2014/principles-and-practices-for-nonprofit-excellence

      I noticed that many of the committee who wrote the booklet were my professors in grad school so I can vouch for their brilliance.

      Additionally Map for Nonprofits has various trainings and services for nonprofits including leadership training. http://www.mapfornonprofits.org/

      Some of their trainings are webinars but they also have “Strategies for new executive directors”. That one seems to be more in person but your state might have resources like these.

      Good luck.
      Pam

  75. CryloRen*

    How long does it usually take for employers to process drug/background checks? I accepted a written offer March 10, and have put in my notice at my current employer. I completed my drug & background checks last Friday (March 11) and received notification from the drug/background check firms that I passed both on Monday afternoon.

    However, the prospective employer hasn’t reached out to me with the first-day orientation materials that they mentioned they would send me after they’ve processed my drug & background checks. Should I follow up with the employer, or is it pretty typical for these kinds of things to take a while? If I already received copies of my results, both stating that I’ve passed, that’s pretty indicative that there aren’t any problems and that I should be good to go, right?

    My scumbag brain is just coming up with all kinds of paranoid reasons why this offer is too good to be true and won’t happen, so I think I’m just needing some reassurance!

    1. Dawn*

      At my last company it was considered LIGHTNING FAST if the background checks went through in 2 weeks. 3 weeks was the norm. Some companies are just really slow about that stuff for whatever reason.

    2. Laura*

      It usually takes 2-3 weeks, maybe more if the company is small and/or poorly managed. But you’ve already received the results, which means your employer has too.

      I would email your contact at the prospective employer, reiterating your excitement to get everything squared away, and ask for what next steps need to be taken.

      1. CryloRen*

        I’ve gone ahead and emailed my contact using your “script”. Hoping everything is going well and they’re just taking their time in getting stuff squared up. Thanks so much for your reply!

    3. ThatGirl*

      I was a contractor for 5 years before getting a FTE position here. I had to go through a background check, which was fine, but they got hung up on proving I’d been working here for five years. It was silly. Like, I can give you the names of a dozen people who saw me every day for those five years. It all worked out though.

  76. Callie*

    I have an interview next week for a tenure-track job! I’m really looking forward to it but I’m also very nervous because I fly out Monday and I still don’t have my itenerary. I know what classes I’ll be teaching for teaching demos. However, I don’t know what they want me to teach. I spoke with the chair earlier in the week and they said they would get back to me later this week with “where they are in the class” and how long the lesson should run but I haven’t heard back yet. In case they don’t get back to me, I’ve prepped some lessons that don’t require any prior reading from the students, but I feel meh about it because I don’t think it really showcases my best work, and I could do that if I had more info about the classes. Is it okay to send a follow up email today to inquire about class topics or will that look needy and impatient?

    Also, how does one dress for a cross-country flight when you’re getting off the plane and being picked up by someone from the search committee to go straight to dinner? I don’t want to look like a wrinkled mess but I also don’t want to be uncomfortable for 6 hours.

    1. fposte*

      Congratulations and good luck!

      I would either follow up with the chair today or Monday. Monday’s better if it leaves you time enough.

      There are two ways on the clothing. First, you could change in the airport bathroom–it’s not like they’re meeting you at the gate. Second, travel knits.

      1. Callie*

        Thanks!

        Monday won’t be enough time–I leave around 5 am my time for my flight and I’ll be in the air all day, so that doesn’t give me much wiggle room. Mrrr. I just don’t want to look like a pest.

        I was planning on a blouse/skirt/cardigan combo for the plane, wearing a more comfortable knit skirt on the flight and changing into a more tailored skirt when I arrive.

        1. fposte*

          Sounds workable.

          Go ahead and nudge today, then (ASAP, even), but I think it’s likely you won’t hear. I don’t think it’ll offend to ask, though.

          1. Callie*

            I nudged, but no reply. I doubt I will hear over thwe weekend. I’ve made some good plans anyway, pulling out a few lessons I’ve taught several times before, so it’s material I’ll be confident with.

        2. LibbyG*

          I was just gonna say “sweater set!” But blouse/cardigan sounds great. Good luck! I hope it all goes well. If they play their part right, you’ll feel like a visiting dignitary!

          1. Callie*

            A sweater set is something on my “want” list. I had one, but I’ve lost a lot of weight and it’s far too big. I just really love that look!

        3. Jules the First*

          Throw spares of everything into a carry-on bag – this is just about guaranteed to be the flight where your seatmate drops an entire glass of cola in your lap. Go on….ask me how I know….

          I love a good wrap dress for a long flight going straight to a meeting – throw some leggings and flats under it for the flight, then swap to hose and heels on your way from gate to pickup point.

    2. Meg*

      Congratulations! I would suggest some sort of comfortable dress that doesn’t wrinkle easily, then you can add a nice cardigan or a blazer. And make sure to have breath mints handy, and stop by the bathroom on your way out for deodorant and/or makeup reapplication. :)

    3. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

      Good luck! My go to plane outfit is a shift dress and cardigan with flats (I am a dress person, could easily swap for dress pants and a shell). No need to be more formal than this, even if they are picking you up at the airport and taking you out to dinner. Suit or more formal clothes are for your all day interview :)

      Just go with what you have prepped for the demo. At this point it is unreasonable for them to expect to be able to give you substantive information that would change what you’re doing. Teach what will make you feel comfortable and let you show off your teaching at your best. It’s not going to fit seamlessly into their regular class. That’s fine. You’re not their professor and you’re not there to give a guest lecture, you’re there to get a job!

      Pack snacks. Pack extra pantyhose. Band aids and Advil.

      And enjoy! I love academic interviews. You’re going to spend a good amount of time talking about what you care about most with interesting people who might be your colleagues for the rest of your life. And they are gonna pay for you to stay in a hotel. It’s a sweet deal!

      1. Callie*

        I’m really looking forward to it! They have asked me to teach three classes; one of them is not normally held this term, but in the fall. However, they are pulling together a class for it because it is the major specialty of this position and that’s what they want to see. Since it’s not a regular class this term, the choice of lesson is up to me, and so I have a good lesson planned I’ve taught many times and done a conference workshop from as well, so I’m very comfortable with it. The other two I don’t know about, but I have some tried and true things I’ve done before that I’m going to use with those also.

  77. Looking into politics*

    I’ve been looking for a jobs as a government attorney in a non-litigation capacity for a few years now, with particular interest in the nonpartisan advisory offices. Recently a friend suggested that one of our state political parties has similar positions available and I should look into them. While I’m personally completely behind this particular party, I’m nervous about moving into partisan work. For one, I suspect that even a short stint working for a party would disqualify me from nonpartisan work. And for two, everyone I know who works in politics is either in elected office or works on campaigns, so it’s very temporary work. I’m wondering if anyone has any experience working for a political party in a permanent position and how to go about presenting oneself as a good candidate for those kind of jobs.

  78. Kay*

    How do figure out when you’re not doing a good job because you are massively burned out, and you need to do some self-care and give yourself a break, and you’re not doing a good job because you need to step up and get over yourself?

    The last 12 months at my small nonprofit have seen just about every crisis imaginable: threatened closure, massive turnover in senior staff, unbelievably bad people who had temporary stays in those roles and were fired but not before stirring up hornet’s nests on their way out, people who were generally not great at their job going out of control and getting actively bad at their job, rescinding some of the few benefits we’ve had, not filling positions that were support for my program work with the result that I have 2.5 jobs now, the final months of a massive $$$ federal grant, and now, ED turnover that has resulted in someone who is AWESOME but is very very very high energy and wants us to rethink everything we do, all the time.

    That has coincided with me getting married, buying a house, renovating said house, losing several longterm friendships over their terrible behavior, my partner having a mental health crisis, and two of three pets having multiple physical health crises. I’ve been point on ALL of those things, as partner is not really able to step up.

    When I write it all out like that, yeah, obviously! I am suuuuuuuuuuper burned out. But I am generally a high octane person who is hard on myself and I feel like I am so tired that I am checking out, not doing a good job, and some of the good changes that are now happening are passing me by. Some of the good new staff we’re hiring are clearly doing a better job than I am, and I’m struggling to keep on top of my day to day work in a thoughtful manner.

    There is zero possibility of finding another job in my field. It’s that niche, and I live in that rural an area. So the out of “look somewhere else, you’re done here” is not there, unless I change fields, and I LOVE my field.

    Do I just need to buck up? If I need to help alleviate the burnout, how do I have that conversation with my supervisor in a productive way? She’s well aware that it’s been awful, and she’s well aware that coworker and I are in over our heads, but she has never yet followed up on that knowledge with action steps.

    1. Ad Astra*

      Well, I’m not sure you ever really need to justify self-care, but you certainly sound like someone who’s “earned” a bit of self-care. Would it be possible for you to take a few days off to relax?

      Which parts of your job are falling through the cracks right now? Is this a time/energy problem or more of a focus/clear thinking problem? I suggest talking to your supervisor and trying to identify some tasks that can be taken off your plate — either delegated to someone else or dropped completely.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        This, entirely. It sounds like you’ve been through it, Kay, and you need help. Come up with a list of suggestions for process improvements and/or tasks that can be delegated elsewhere and take that to your supervisor. It may be that your supervisor has been so busy with other things that, unfortunately, your previous conversations weren’t a priority (especially if supervisor’s hands were tied by things outside of her control). If you come prepared to discuss things with solutions thrown in the mix, however, you might have better luck at seeing some change on the work front since supervisor won’t have to come up with the plan herself.

        1. QualityControlFreak*

          This is perfect. Your manager sounds like she has a pretty full plate too. My org has had top-level leadership changes in the past year. It’s been a little hectic for everyone and my managers seem to appreciate my approaching problems with suggested solutions in hand. Plus, it allows you to advocate for yourself. You know best what will help you. On the burnout, if a couple of days off are remotely possible, I’d ask. High-octane or not, you can only run on empty for so long. Take care, and ditch the self-judgement. You’ve been through a lot. “Buck up” and “bootstraps” do not apply here.

    2. Paloma Pigeon*

      The part of your story that struck me was about losing the longterm friendships. One of the hardest things about everyone being super busy and having major commitments is the loss of time to nurture friendships. I can’t think of one person I could talk to about the pressure I’m under either.

      Remember 1-900 chat lines? We need an AAM. Everyone could dial in on Friday nights with a glass of chardonnay and we could all validate each other. 45 minutes and we’d feel so much better!

      Just know you are probably handling more than 5 people your age handled a generation ago. Sometimes even finding 10 minutes early in the morning to sit and meditate can make a big difference. I know that can be hard with pets…

    3. motherofdragons*

      No, you don’t need to just buck up. Handling a small handful of those issues you mentioned sounds exhausting, and you’ve been doing them ALL, by yourself, without strong support (totally understandable about your spouse, and additionally losing close friends means losing that Team You support). It’s incredibly impressive, and I also definitely think it’s (understandably) contributing to your lack of focus at work. No need to be hard on yourself for this, but I do strongly encourage you to speak up to your new (awesome-sounding and probably understanding!) boss. If it were me, I would say something like “I’ve had a lot going on both at work and in my personal life, and am feeling burnt out. I want to be 100% focused and effective in this role that I love, but I need a bit of a break. I’d like to take a few days off to take care of myself, and then I would love to sit down with you when I’m back to strategize about how I can get plugged back in and manage my current workload with everything going on.” If you’re not already, seeing a counselor could be massively helpful in addressing personal and professional burnout. Best of luck to you!

    4. StellsBells*

      Your personal life sounds so similar to mine! I was already married, but in 2015 we (1) moved back to home state after spending a year living three states away after husband lost his job that we moved out there for (2) had one (of three) dogs pass away in May and in July another was diagnosed with a tumor that was super rare and terminal so we lost him in December (3) bought our first house and started renovating said house and (4) me having a couple (thankfully minor) health crises (which could have been much worse)

      Luckily, I left super crazy job midway last year for something a bit more relaxed. Maybe you can talk to your new supervisor about reducing hours or trying to find a way to take a week or two of PTO to just stay home and do whatever self care you need?

      Also, I’m going to second seeing a counselor/therapist if you can. I started seeing mine a few years ago when I was having that friendship crisis stage of my life, and I needed someone objective to tell me I wasn’t the crazy one with ridiculous expectations – these people were genuinely being nasty to me and it was OK to walk away from that (and that it was OK to feel sad about that loss).

  79. esra*

    So!

    I am working on a brand new team at a young company (6 years old, transitioning from start up to actual company). The staff is about 35-40% experienced people, with the rest being very enthusiastic, but not terribly experienced.

    My small team consists of of three people with 3-10 years experience each under a director who falls under the excitement-but-no-experience category. He has some good ideas and is generally okay to work for, but little work and no management experience prior to this role.

    The issue: He is becoming a micromanager and can be very patronizing. Like, he’ll assign you work and make suggestions to do things so basic only the most junior person wouldn’t know to do them. It’s insulting. I’ve called him out a few times on it, but today one of my coworkers came to me asking how to deal with the larger pattern of it (I get the odd insulting suggestion, she is getting full micromanaged. Less I think because of performance and more I think because her job is fun and he wants to do it). She wanted to talk to HR for strategies on dealing with him, but I suggested she talk to him directly first about expectations around her role and his and where the two meet.

    I was wondering if anyone here has had to have this awkward talk with a micromanaging boss? How did you address feeling increasingly managed? What language did you use when talking with your boss? I’ve been told in the past I can be terribly direct.

      1. esra*

        Thank you! Luckily he’s not quite that bad, but I think that language will work. I’m hoping this is just inexperience on his part and not actually his management style.

  80. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

    Funny story.

    So we have office coffee for the division, about a hundred people, but between people who don’t drink coffee or don’t drink the office coffee, there’s probably only 20 people using the office coffee set up daily.

    The set up couldn’t be simpler. The water is piped in. To make a new pot you pull the Wawa coffee pack, open it, pull a filter, put em together, push the button and put one of the carafes under it. (We have 5 carafes so someone could make multi pots but there’s no Coffee Person so that doesn’t happen in practice. In practice, there’s one live pot most of the time.)

    What’s the manners in this situation people, what’s the manners? If you take the last cup, you MAKE A NEW ONE, right? It does not take one minute to make a new pot, but if you don’t make a new pot, the next person is screwed and not only has to make a new pot, but has to go back to their desk and come back again as it takes about 5 or 6 minutes for the next pot to finish.

    Well somebody has been dropping the ball, a lot, because for years now, half the time I go to get a morning cup off coffee, I’m screwed over, again.

    I rant, oh I rant, but I stop short of issuing one of those Office Emails or Putting Up Signs, because I really really really hate those things. What I do instead is go back to my team and announce: “some asshole did it again. I’m installing a hidden camera!”

    Other day, I’m in the kitchen, go to pull a cup, screwed again, and I yell out “BASTARDS!!”

    Dude standing next to me (legendary coffee drinker, always has a cup in his hand) says, “Hey, you know what, I had the last cup. Can you show me how to make it? I’ve never made the coffee here before.”

    Seven. Years. He has worked for me for: seven. years.

    For once, I was speechless. I just, showed him how to open the packet, put it in the filter, and press “brew” and walked away.

    2. Shell*

      Heh. I’m one of the few people in my office who doesn’t drink coffee (but I’ll go through five cups of tea a day), and even I know how to make the coffee.

      Not that I’ve ever made it, mind you.

    3. F.*

      I got completely out of the coffee wars by having a single-mug coffeemaker at my desk. On the rare day I do drink coffee (damn anxiety!), I can make it to the strength I want, when I want it, and not have to worry about it.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Also, think about the logistics for a minute.

        He’s a coffee drinker, always drinking coffee. Also, he’s never made coffee in 7 years. I say to myself, well what did he do when he got there and the pot was empty, just go back to his desk and hope somebody else would make it soon? Check back every 10 minutes? What?

        Then, light bulb. If he was the only person who ever broke the chain , he would never encounter an empty pot!

        Think about it. In his world, the coffee really did make itself!

        1. TootsNYC*

          Yep, it did!

          And if a cat sits in front of a door long enough, it will open.
          Eventually. Even if it’s because the building burned down.

          But yeah, people’s ability to be passive is amazing. And their ability to let themselves either be intimidated by something or persuade themselves that something is “too hard” to even figure out!

          I will tell you that I am normally a “push buttons until you figure it out” kind of person. But I am totally intimidated by every form of coffee maker.

    8. hermit crab*

      This is not helpful in the least, but I’m jealous that you have Wawa coffee packs.

      Signed,
      a displaced Pennsylvanian

    9. TootsNYC*

      And that’s why he didn’t make the coffee. He didn’t know how.
      And he could get away with not doing it.

      We have a problem where people are using the wrong italic font (instead of Light Italic in a Light paragraph, they use regular Italic, which is too heavy).

      I asked our production person to alert me the next time she sees it, so i can address it with that person. “I think the problem is that they don’t have that font,” I say.
      “It’s easy, they just have to load it,” she says. I’m thinking, “yes, but they don’t know HOW. Or they don’t realize that there is a Light Italic; they think that Italic is the only one available. And so you TEACH them. Instead of talking about how easy it is to do, and they should just do it.”

    10. Doriana Gray*

      LOL! Your whole story kills me because people at my job do the same thing. Luckily, I don’t drink the office coffee (drinking tar would be more palatable), but I know some coworkers who, like you, end up ranting and raving because someone took the last of it, knew they took the last of it, and then just left the empty lot behind. And our coffee makers are the big industrial looking ones, so brew times take much longer. I feel for y’all.

  81. LAI*

    Does anyone have any tips for getting work done with a coworker who I can’t stand working with? I’m on a committee that is headed by a guy (let’s call him Frank) who I just cannot get on the same page with. He’s a very nice guy but when it comes to work, he operates using no sense of logic that I can understand, is incredibly long-winded and never gets to the point, seems to try to avoid making decisions about anything and can’t defend the decisions he does make. It all adds up to make me absolutely crazy and is starting to affect my ability to do my job. I find myself avoiding talking to Frank until I absolutely have to, and getting anxious to escape the minute I see him walk into my office. The result is that we’re not communicating very well…

    1. Jillociraptor*

      This might sound counter-intuitive, but you might want to try spending MORE time with Frank. See if you can learn about his job, his constraints, what kinds of things keep him up at night.

      It might not make him more logical; if he’s just a chaos muppet, all you’ll learn is the degree to which you need to circumvent him. But you might notice that, for example, what really motivates him is not having to say no to higher ups, so he’ll make otherwise really odd and inconsistent choices to avoid a situation that makes him uncomfortable. Then, at least, you have a framework for anticipating his behavior, even if you don’t like or understand it.

      1. Jules the First*

        Now I’m wondering what the breakdown is in AAM readers between order muppets and chaos muppets….or maybe I’ve just been up too many hours.

  82. Anonymous Educator*

    Did anyone else read the “Not a Black Chair” post on Medium? It made me very sad…

    1. Laura*

      The author is so vitriolic, I have a hard time believing everything she says. She seems to play the victim at every turn. It just seems too dramatic to be 100% true.

      1. Jubilance*

        Wow, that’s insensitive. And sadly, that’s why more women and people of color don’t come forward when they experience racism/sexism in the office. Kinda disappointing to hear this from a woman.

        1. Laura*

          If the comment she reported is true, of course it’s insensitive and racist– I’m not denying that. Did you miss the several instances of the author being completely unprofessional? I am a woman, yes, but that doesn’t excuse the author’s actions.

      2. esra*

        It’s often easier to think the kind of poor treatment she experienced is a lie than to accept it’s reality and we all need to work to make it better.

      3. Anonymous Educator*

        Does it have to be 100% true? I was definitely reading it with some skepticism, but even if you take some of the unreliable narrator aspects into account, there were still some super-horrible things she had to endure.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I think she was inexperienced and foolish about some things, but the place was really screwed up.

          And it so made me want to rewind to 2011-2 and give her some guidance. Especially on the guy, who’s visibly a waste of time from miles away.

      4. Observer*

        Really? Maybe she WAS the victim at every turn.

        No one seems to be disputing that the manager actually said that she “blended into the chair”. And, nothing happened to her. Do you really think that the other stuff is unlikely in a company that can allow something like that?

  83. SL #2*

    The day before an event, either the printer or the Xerox (or both!!!) break down, without fail. I’ve been in for 30 minutes and I’ve already cleared 4 paper jams and replaced a cartridge. Ugh. THE WORST, I TELL YOU.

        1. SL #2*

          Our Xerox does this thing where it jams literally every 3 pages… without fail, every time we have a major event coming up… ugh.

    2. Kelley*

      I once had a copying emergency (100 packets must be done right now for an actual emergency situation). The copier repair guy showed up exactly then and started packing up my machine (the new one was in the truck, but I didn’t know that). I almost cried.

        1. Kelley*

          Military base overseas. My plan was going to be to break into another office to use their copier.

  84. Jenny*

    I interviewed for a job and the manager has selected me. Now he has to forward my details to HR so that they can do background check and give me offer letter. But my manager is asking for my SSN and past salary history and here are my concerns-
    1) The new job is paying me 40% LESS than my previous job. I am not concerned about salary but I am worried the manager may look at this as red flag.
    2) Why does my manager need past salary info? The job is at a public university and the job advertisement had a fixed salary. So there is no negotiation. Also, there won’t be any hikes or promotions in this role.
    3) I have given SSN info in my last job to HR. On a form that said something like SSN is for employment purpose and won’t be misused blah-blah.
    A. I do not want to give my SSN or salary history informally via email to the manager. Or is it normal for managers to ask like this? How can I politely decline?
    B. Should I contact HR directly and ask what their employment policy is. But I don’t think the HR knows of the manager’s decision to hire yet. I am fine with giving these details to HR.
    C. I am worried that based on my past salary info or SSN the future manager might discriminate against me.

    2. Chriama*

      What I’ve said before is that I’m not comfortable sending my SIN by email so if there’s a number I can call I’ll tell someone directly. The salary question is weird as a background check. For both of these things I might just say I don’t like sending personal info by email so can he give me the HR contact info and I can give them all that stuff over the phone. Maybe someone else can come up with better wording.

      1. newreader*

        Where I work, our IT department has a policy that SSNs are never to be sent by email because email is not secure. So that’s not only a valid preference, it’s also best practice from a security standpoint.

  85. Lauren*

    Salary History / Equal Pay Wars – Update

    I’ve mentioned this before. I make 88K in an industry where my level makes 111K. I didn’t job hop or force my past bosses to recognize me by actually giving me reviews to talk about raises and promotions. When I did bring it up, there were always excuses or gaslighting me into thinking I didn’t deserve a conversation yet – ‘lets revisit this next year’. Next level up is director with 120K. (For those of you that want to yell at me for “being picky” about making a good salary already – go due some math on these numbers and how I’m getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars LESS over the course of my career.)

    Update: Close to 3 offers. One of the companies is exactly what I want on paper – director with 120K for base starting range. Or so the conversations started that way. Guess who just found out that they only offer based on salary history? The 120K was based on the assumption I was making 115K already. But I don’t make that because I have been systematically held back in promotions and salary increases that do not match my experience / level. I’m trying to correct this all in one job hop by being firm on my salary requirements. The intended 120K offer just got brought down to 90K.

    WTF – The recruiter is all like but the BONUSES could be 1-35% a year! WHO CARES? How did we go from a conversation about 120K MINIMUM to 90K based on my salary history??? Since the company does a pretty extensive background check – I knew I couldn’t lie about my current salary. Also, those bonuses – are not in lieu of 120K base – original convo was 120K WITH those bonuses.

    So here I am with a recruiter that doesn’t get it. I just had 30K a year taken away from me. 30K a year that is tied to those fabulous bonuses. Add it up. This is real money – I made it to the top of the candidate pool with them knowing that I wanted 120K with the bonuses – how did I get to 90K? Salary history.

    Ladies – Job hop move up in title and salary every 2 years if your industry doesnt care about length of stay.

    1. Analyst*

      WOW. That is insulting. I hope your other two companies don’t pull that crap and give you real offers in the right range for your industry and position level.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      This must be an inside recruiter because an outside one has a vested interest in getting that salary up higher. Stick to your guns! I’m betting it’s a bluff.

      1. Lauren*

        Outside recruiter. I am continuing the conversation, because I want them to pick me. I want to say no – and I want to tell them why. I don’t want the recruiter to just say ‘she took another role’ – I want to say exactly what happened. “This conversation began when the salary range began at 120K. I was offered 90K. This is unacceptable. I would not have applied to this job had I known that my salary history would dictate the final offer 30K below our original conversation. Nor do I want to work for a company that systematically perpetuates the pay gap.”

        I don’t want to be nice. HR won’t care why I turn it down. I have the hiring manager’s email, and the recruiter had me email them directly for ‘thank you / examples of work’. I wonder if they know that the compensation team is doing this to candidates. This isn’t 2K we are talking about here. Let’s say I stay for 3 years (not considering bonus, raises or COL). That is $90,000 that I am missing out on. How can I not be angry at this? This is an extreme example, but I am already 23K behind. I go to work everyday feeling worthless. Because I am – I am ‘worth LESS’.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          That’s $6k out of the recruiter’s pocket. How are they not fighting for the advertised salary? I’d be pissed too. Heck I’m pissed for you.
          Tell the recruiter you wouldn’t have considered this role for less than $120K.

          How good do the other two opportunities look?

    4. overeducated*

      That is SO enraging. Making offers based on salary history clearly perpetuates inequality…I wonder if there will ever be a high profile legal case showing disparate impact based on gender or race that could make this practice legally problematic.

      Story time: I had a job offer that came in around 15% under the “bottom of the range” that HR had quoted to me last year because of my “lack of experience,” and it seemed really dishonest. If you had the choice of someone more experienced for the job, maybe you should’ve offered it to them, but if I was the best candidate, then I should be paid accordingly. (I didn’t take that job, but I know the person who did, and they pulled the exact same thing on her. She wasn’t quite able to negotiate back to the “bottom” of the original range.)

      If you’re good enough to get hired for the advertised job, you should be good enough for the advertised salary.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Yes, THIS. I wish you could just call them out on this, or call the hiring manager or POC at the company to circumvent the recruiter and tell them this is BS!

    5. BRR*

      I’d be tempted to respond that 1%-35% of 120k would be a lot better. I hope you are in a position to call them on this bs. You know they were ready to pay you more. I’m sorry sorry. F them.

    6. StellsBells*

      Ugh – This is happening to my husband, although for very different reasons. He’s changed careers in his late 20s/early 30s and took a pay cut initially for the new experience. Now he has hiring managers tell him that previous experience plus new experience makes him worth 100k but still only offered him 75k for his most recent job (because it was based on previous salary) with the promise of a raise and competitive bonus after a year.

      A year later it was a 4% raise and a 7% bonus (lowest in the company) and he’s STILL below market rate. He’s going to start looking again but due to the fact he’s left the last two jobs within a year for something closer to what he was making before career change (which was a job he was in for 6-7 years) he’s worried if he doesn’t stay at least another year he’ll be labeled a job hopper.

      He’s so frustrated looking around at others in his role (many of whom are also younger) that are making 6 figures while he’s working his tail off for much less.

      Good luck with finding a company that isn’t going to try to cheat you out of the salary you deserve!

  86. AyBeeCee*

    How do I get someone higher up to actually get back with me on something I need to do my job?

    My company works in teapots and I focus on teapot contracts, including stainless steal teapot contracts. One C-level person has said that if there are any spout or handle questions on stainless steal teapot contracts, she needs to be the one to handle them in her department. I don’t believe that anyone else in her department has the training to be knowledgeable about stainless steal teapot contracts. The problem is that any time I send a question to her, I have no idea when I’ll hear back. For example, I sent one request to her 1/22. I got half of an answer back in early February but she said she wanted to look further into a couple items. I still haven’t gotten a complete answer back from her despite the occasional “I’ll put it in my bag to look at tonight” response. Normally my turn around time would be a couple of weeks (or less, if I don’t need to reach out to any other departments). Since we’re in different departments and she is equivalent to my boss’s boss I don’t feel that there’s much I can do beyond sending a weekly follow up email. From what I’ve heard off the record from someone else in her department, she’s generally terrible at managing her time so it’s not just me or my projects that are running into this.

    1. Fabulous*

      Set an expectation of when you need an answer by so she’s more likely to keep that in mind. Then follow up with her about a week before you need the answer, and again the day before if she still hasn’t responded.

    2. TootsNYC*

      You need to take it up the chain (your chain) so that it can get to your boss’s boss.

  87. Aurora Leigh*

    Librarians on here — MLS/MLIS degree — do you recommend the program? What did you wish you knew before you took classes? Do you find what you learned to be helpful on the job?

    My background — I worked for 6 years as a paraprofessional in a public library (high school & college) and now I’m the director of a VERY small rural public library. I really enjoy the work, but I’d like to eventually hold a full time job in the field. Is the degree worth the loans? In your experience does anyone get a full time job without one? I’d like to work in Youth Services if that makes a difference.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m not a librarian, but I used to be involved in helping schools hire librarians, and in about 99% of cases, schools would not consider a librarian candidate without an MLS/MLIS. Just one data point to consider. Maybe non-school libraries are different?

    2. Anoners*

      I think this really depends on if the job you want/have requires a MLS degree. If it’s not a requirement, and you don’t think it will ever be one, it might not be worthwhile to get it. If you think your career track is going to benefit from the degree, it might be worth checking into it. I did mine in a 2 year program for about 18 k (Canadian). I don’t know where you are, but most jobs listed as “librarian” require an ALA accredited masters degree. Most people I went to school with do not have jobs, and the field is quite saturated. A lot of people who do get jobs seem to already work at a public library, and the degree is just a step to get them into a higher position. From what I’ve seen, these are the people who benefit the most from getting the degree.

    3. Librarian Too*

      Don’t know what state you are in , but in-state tuition is not hugely outrageous at some schools. My own MLS (2010) cost me about $12,000. If you want full-time work as a librarian, you will probably need the degree. If you want to stay in administration, take some classes related to that. Also take theory classes so you understand the thinking behind what libraries do.

    4. Library Manager*

      The degree was worth it for me. I don’t know that what I studied in classes is necessary for the job, but the degree itself has opened doors. It makes you eligible for higher-level jobs, and I have a strong professional network through my school.

      There are lots of horror stories about people who never find jobs. I know that is true at some schools. But that said, the overwhelming majority of the people I went to school with found professional jobs in a reasonable amount of time, and that was during the recession. Our program emphasized getting internships and worked with us on developing soft skills and job searching.

      It helps a lot to have geographic flexibility. You can’t necessarily expect to get a job in the same city (or even metro region) where you go to school. The job market is pretty small once you identify a specialty–and you should have some focus in jobs, since that will make you a more attractive candidate. If you’re willing to move for that first position, you’ll have more luck. I would suspect that your experience so far would make you a competitive candidate.

    5. Aisling*

      It depends on where you live, really. I love the degree and I’m glad I got it, but in my system, there’s been a recent push to hire people without the degree for full-time positions, even if a degree holder also applied. The idea is that managers should have a degree but regular full-timers are not required to. So look at job postings in your area, if you want to stay in your area, and see what makes sense for you.

  88. AccidentAway*

    Multiple people recently left my job which left gaps and holes in various office shifts. To encourage employees to take over the office shifts, the open shifts are available for additional $13.00 an hour. We are still expected to do our own 40 hours/week in our regular office shifts. Our supervisor has been giving the open shifts out on a first-come/first serve basis, but this has clearly been problematic.

    My colleagues are way too enticed by the extra pay. Some are working 15 hour days for two days in a row. One employee was found sleeping in an office shift. Some have taken many extra shifts and then later called in sick on their regular shifts which means people (like me) have to cover for them without any extra pay!

    I feel like we are an accident away! Clearly people should not bite off more than they can chew, but the shifts HAVE to be covered. If (and when) an accident happens with our current system, who should be mostly responsible? The employee or the employer?

    1. Manders*

      Workers comp-wise, they may still be entitled to some compensation even if the accident was partially caused by their own fatigue. Are you doing some kind of work that might result in physical injuries if people get careless?

      Is there a way to get temps in to cover these gaps? This is exactly the kind of situation temp agencies exist to handle.

      1. AccidentAway*

        In my work, carelessness is almost guaranteed an accident.. There was a super accident 5 years ago that completely revamped how we function and I feel there is no way to fully function in this job by skating by on fatigue.

        I am not sure if we can hire temps, that is a great suggestion . I brought up my concerns to my supervisor a month ago, but they have not thought of a solution, or they do not see it as big of an issue as I do.

    2. LCL*

      One of my tasks involves administering overtime. I could write pages on this, but I won’t.

      First, you must understand that no matter how you administer it, people will think it is unfair and they didn’t get their share. Your office has got to have clear overtime rules and follow them. And have a way for workers to see the process working. The calling in sick after long shifts? No way to stop that, it will settle down when they figure out they are burning leave time. Your rules could include if you call in sick for a scheduled shift within 12 hours of the end of an OT shift, you are off the list for a week.
      So, decide how you are going to offer people overtime shifts, and how many they can work in a row. The rules can be whatever you want them to be, but they must be clear and consistent. First come-first serve always starts world war 3, I expect you guys won’t be doing it that way for long. FCFS leaves you wide open to charges of discrimination, because the people that get the shifts will be the people who have the best rapport with the manager.

      Here, we track the last 12 months of overtime, and update it every month. We offer it starting with the person who has the least hours of OT. We are getting some pressure to zero it out periodically, which is less fair but some perceive it as more fair. We don’t have any rules about sick time affecting callouts.

      Your company doesn’t get to decide who is responsible if an accident happens. The agency having jurisdiction (OSHA and others in the US) decides.

  89. Beancounter in Texas*

    Ugh. I’m beginning to believe more and more that the bookkeeper/accountant, Cersei Lannister, who closes the year end books and remits information to the CPA has not actually studied accounting. I also strongly suspect that she doesn’t know QuickBooks well. The kicker is that she’s known the owner for “over 20 years” and the owner trusts her more than anyone. I accidentally tested that relationship and got put in my place.

    It’s not an everyday occurrence that I wonder about her qualifications to be a bookkeeper, but when it does happen, it raises a red flag that maybe I should move on. I mean, there are other parts of the job that make me wonder whether I should stay – mostly the workload – but the more I interact with Cersei, the more I question whether I want to continue working with her, because what she says rules. She’s not mean about it, because she doesn’t have to be. She knows that she has The Boss in her backpocket.

    For those who have studied accounting principles 101, I had to move items from the cost of goods account because we bought furniture for a client, who didn’t want it, and then we ended up putting in The Boss’ office. So I know I needed to record sales/use tax to be remitted to the state. To move it easily, I invoiced the company’s customer account and then credited the whole invoice to the fixed asset account. The invoice moves credits COGS to debit AR, credits sales tax, and the credit memo credits AR to debit fixed asset. Easy, detailed, & traceable.

    I emailed Cersei because she remits the sales tax. She replied that I didn’t have to “go through those steps. Just code the invoice to the asset account.” Well, if I did that, we’d have the items sitting as both a COGS and an expense, with a balance open in AR, never to be paid. Am I missing something? I know that I don’t know everything about accounting, but her advice just sounds wrong. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Seriously. I would like to understand from where she is coming, but I cannot even phrase what question to ask her to solicit the answer I need.

    1. Anon Accoutant*

      CPA here who works with QuickBooks and I’d have done it the same way. And when the sales tax account showed a certain amount at the end of the month why did she remit that? QuickBooks has a sales tax report you can set up to help if you are selling goods that both are subject to sales tax and tax-exempt goods.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        Thank you for confirmation. Sometimes I think I’ve gone bonkers. I know I could have done it with a journal entry, but I also know that QuickBooks doesn’t take JEs to liability accounts well.

        We don’t so much sell goods that are exempt, but services that are exempt. I’m familiar with the reports – very handy. We file with multiple states, so I am grateful that Cersei remits the taxes.

    2. Finman*

      This should be straightforward journal entry removing the COGS and charging the fixed asset account. Which wouldn’t be recognized as a sale and shouldn’t be charged sales tax. Instead of hitting A/P or cash you are hitting COGS.

      Cr COGS
      Dr Fixed Assets

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        Except that we didn’t pay sales tax on the original purchase, which needs to be paid now that we are keeping the furniture.

        I know a journal entry would have worked as well, but I wanted to be clear as to which specific furniture was kept and an invoice details it better than an JE. (Plus, it’s faster to pull down the billable expense to an invoice.)

    3. Accountant*

      AAAARRGGHHH…. I feel your pain. If I were you, I’d just ask her to walk you through “coding the invoice to the fixed asset account”… maybe she knows something we don’t know? and then ask “innocent questions” about the rest of that journal entry. That said.

      *mounts soapbox*

      I am a tax accountant. I have done hundreds of business tax returns. I am shocked/appalled/disgusted at how many businesses, including ones that make literally millions of dollars, have a bookkeeper that is completely incompetent. I think its because a lot of times businesses start out small and hire some el cheapo person on the side or just have a relative or friend do it. And then, once the business takes off, they never replace that person. It drives me crazy, especially since I, at a billing rate of $200 an hour, have to undo all the mistakes of an incompetent bookkeeper making $15 an hour. It seems like a huge waste of money for our tax prep clients. And a huge potential for internal fraud.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        I am totally on board with you! I recognize that I don’t know as much as CPAs (I’ve at least formally studied some accounting), nor is it my name on the tax return, so I am certainly wanting to do it correctly. If there is a certain way the CPA wants it, I’ll do it the way the CPA wants it.

        The thing is, Cersei is my liaison to the CPA. I haven’t been specifically told not to contact him, but the fact that I was not introduced when he visited indicates to me that I’m not to contact the CPA directly.

        Honestly, Cersei should probably be doing my job. It’d be a cost savings to the company overall and then she wouldn’t have to deal with rule-sticklers like me. :)

      2. Anon Accountant*

        Yes! And then the clients get upset because their bookkeeper did it and they paid her to do it and why did you do this also, etc.

  90. Cheddar2.0*

    Can I just vent about a new policy my husband’s employer is putting into place? My husband is a contractor, and his parent company (3500 miles away) is instituting a gps-based time sheet. They used to just enter the time in after the fact without clocking in and out, but now when you clock in and out, it checks your gps on your phone to make sure you’re actually in the right building. They were having problems with guys taking 2 hr lunch breaks at their central offices but are now requiring all employees to follow it, regardless of previous issues or not. Now, everyone gets only 30 min meal breaks and both your clock in and out have to match the gps of your building.

    This is SUCH a pain in the behind to deal with because 1) as a contractor, my husband doesn’t have an office/fridge space to use and he works in a clean room, so he can’t bring food to work with him. 2) He’s on night shift so the company cafeteria is closed. 3) NONE of the restaurants nearby are fast enough that you could drive there, eat and drive back within his allotted 30 min dinner break. 4) He’s been coming home for dinner but it takes about 40 minutes total. Previously this wasn’t a problem because the site he’s contracted to doesn’t care as long as the time is entered into his timesheet correctly, but now his parent company is going to throw a fit about it.

    So annoyed. Seriously.

    1. Beancounter in Texas*

      I’m curious as to how they can enforce a 30 minute meal break if he’s genuinely a contractor?

      1. Cheddar2.0*

        Oh he’s W-2. His title is “contractor” though at the company he acts works at. With his parent company his title is “Engineer”.

      1. TootsNYC*

        There are little fridges that run off the cigarette lighter; they’d stop generating cold when he turns off the car, but things would stay in on the commute.

        And he could bring up the idea of getting some sort of fridge, etc., at work, given the new rules. Surely there’s somewhere that’s not a clean room that he could eat–a meeting room, the recepetion area…

  91. anonny for this*

    so what do you do when your counterpart keeps mis-reading instructions and documents, and as a result, is not completing audits correctly?

    background: she started in jan and is a bright person. basically, what i import, she needs to audit to ensure it matches.. and she’s been comparing a to c instead of b to c. i just re-read the process instructions on how to do the audit and it’s definitely there.

    this isn’t the first time.. she’s done this before as well, and seems to not read documents the entire way through. i’m her peer, so i’m not quite sure how to proceed here. any thoughts/ideas?

    1. Anon Accountant*

      Is it a matter of training where she needs additional training? Can you mention to her that you have noticed that last week the audits weren’t completed correctly and offer a walk-through as to correct completion? Is your office a culture it’d be more expected to talk to your manager and let her discuss it with your coworker?

      1. anonny for this*

        i think it’s honestly a matter of re-reading the steps and really being sure what you are comparing. once it’s uploaded we have to calculate some more numbers – so she’s not auditing the re-calculation, just going by the original one. if something goes wonky with the re-calc, that’s where she is supposed to catch it… but she’s not. i can sit down with her, but honestly i think she has one foot out the door already… and we currently have no direct manager.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I teach or train my peers all the time. “Hey, I noticed you did this wrong–it’s going to cost me a lot of time, so I thought I’d go over it with you, in case I can help you”

      “Did you read this all the way through? There are instructions at the end that you didn’t follow. I feel like I’ve seen that happen a lot. ”

      When your mistakes impact me, I’m entitled to come and talk to you about it, and the “training” is really just “we’re all in this together, and I happen to be the one who knows how to do this.”

      And even if she has one foot out the door–this approach will be good managerial practice!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would handle it like it’s a case of new job nerves. Tell her positives about what she is doing, and just ask her to slow down to make sure she is reading the entire document. She maybe worried about not working quickly enough, so you might want to tell her something reassuring about that also.

  92. JennyFair*

    So, fun story.

    We’re shutting down some of our branch offices that are underutilized. One in particular has only one employee stationed at it, and that employee works full-time at a client’s facility. We called to let him know we’d ended the lease and would be vacating the property by the end of next month. He became extremely upset because, it turns out, he’d sold his house and moved all his belongings into the office until his new house is done being built. Obviously we were a bit shocked by this, but then he continued to say that we needed to extend the lease until his house was completed, and after all, we couldn’t *get to* the company property because of his own belongings being in the way. Then he pushed my boss to call his own boss to explain why we’d need to extend the lease. We figured this would probably result in the employee being fired instead, so we didn’t do it. The employee then proceeded to text multiple times a day several days in a row asking if we had a resolution. When called again and told there wouldn’t be any leeway on this, he continued to complain, with profanity, about his own suffering.

    I wish I were as entitled as this employee thinks he is, lol.

    2. Shell*

      What?

      He wants to turn the office space into his own personal storage, free of charge, and throws a hissy fit about it when the company rightfully refuses?

      I’m surprised this employee hasn’t been disciplined for misuse of company property. Your boss probably should tell her boss about it and let the chips fall as they may re: the employee’s continued employment.

    3. Anon Accountant*

      Your boss really should call his boss and handle this. You did all you can do by telling your boss what happened. His belligerence at being told no plus the profanity really shows how entitled he is.

    5. Laura*

      And he is still employed by your company?? Wow. His actions would result in instant termination at many companies.

    6. Dawn*

      Dang not only is that crazy, that’s also an insane insurance liability against your company! Keep us updated!

    8. JennyFair*

      Well, it’s not that my boss and I want to keep the guy around, it’s that we believe the consequences to firing him, financially (due to the job he’s assigned to) would outweigh the benefits. We’re in a precarious position within the company at the moment, hence the branch office shutdowns :( Hopefully that will be resolved soon and we’ll have more freedom to fire as needed because there’s at least one other person on our List, lol.

      Dawn, the insurance liability was one reason we said No to ‘what if I pay the rent myself’.

      And yeah, after a week of this, we’re still kind of in shock that someone would just DO that. Like…did he have parents?

      1. Shell*

        Well, if he’s willing to pay the rent himself, then he should have no qualms renting out a self-storage locker and dumping his crap in there. They have the insurance set up and a space dedicated to storing stuff.

        This guy is ridiculous.

        1. esra*

          That’s what I don’t get. Rent there could not possibly be cheaper than a storage locker.

        2. JennyFair*

          I think he objects to going to the trouble to move it all again when ‘the house will be done soon’.

          1. Shell*

            Oh, I know, but my response would still be no way in hell. He may complain that people can’t get to the company property with his stuff in the way, but that’s no reason to extend a lease your company doesn’t want to extend. Instead, that’s grounds to throw out his stuff since it’s not authorized to be on the property.

            And when it comes to building a house or buying a house (I’ve seen both), the estimated completion date is not guaranteed. Delays in closing, paperwork snafus, inspection delays, so many reasons for delay. I wouldn’t trust his assurance that anything will be done “soon.”

          2. TootsNYC*

            It would still be cheaper to pay movers to move it to the storage locker, than to pay the rent on commercial space!!!

            1. Jessica (tc)*

              I know I’m late to the party, but I wonder if the guy has been living there. There was no mention of where he’s living while his house is being built, and he doesn’t work out of the office anyway. Hmmm…

    9. Joanna*

      I think you need to make sure that his next office is tiny so that he can’t easily do it again and hopefully gets the hint

  93. ACA*

    So as part of my (newish) job, I frequently interact with my old department, including the woman who took over in my old position. And she’s definitely doing some things better than I did, which is great But on the other hand, there are a few things that she’s just not grasping – I’ve had counterparts in other departments come to me and say, “Perpetua told me I didn’t need to file my TPS report, is that right?” Definitely not right! I’ve had students say, “Perpetua told me I was missing my Teapot Authorization Form.” Uh, it better not be missing; I turned it in two days ago and the system even says it’s been processed.

    I know she’s still learning (and I know my old boss is not easy to work with), but it’s frustrating.

    1. ACA*

      Ugh, she just did it again. “Perpetua said I owe the university $5,000 and she’s canceling my exit interview unless I pay it in the next hour!” Yeah, and if Perpetua had ASKED ME, I’d have told her the charge was being waived!

      1. TootsNYC*

        Why was that waiver of fee not documented somewhere easy enough to find? Maybe she’s not looking–but she really shouldn’t be having to ASK YOU something that important and that basic.

  94. Jennifer M.*

    A few weeks ago I wrote in about swinging for the fences when proposing a consulting rate. It ultimately didn’t work out. The department tried to move forward with the paperwork but were told they didn’t have an approved requisition. So previous supervisor said, “OK, I’ll go do that”. “Well, we’re not approving any non-billable requisitions right now”. The type of work that I do is rarely if ever billable. I confirmed with my old supervisor that it wasn’t about the rate and she said no, they just couldn’t get anyone approved at the moment.

    However, this morning I just booked a consulting gig through the end of April somewhere else. I actually had an interview for a full time position with this company last week. They called and said they aren’t prepared to hire anyone just now, but they did need some help. They have a new project that is in start up mode and need some help right now. I think that ultimately they wouldn’t be able to hire me because my salary is too high, but they can afford to have me as a consultant for a while. We’ll see. Maybe they’ll love me (and I’ll love them of course!) and we’ll find a way to make it work. Before I could propose a rate, the department director said they could offer $X/day which is about 4.5% less than what I would have asked for (at the high rate) so I decided to accept. We discussed that since I am currently looking for full time work, I would want to be flexible in my schedule to accommodate potential interviews and she said it was fine, that they didn’t want to hold me back from finding a full time job if it wasn’t going to work out with them full time. The only thing I have to do is figure out parking. At their building it is $21/day. I think for April I could get a monthly permit for $175 (more if I wanted to have a reserved spot). There is a building a block or two away that I believe is $10/day if you are in by 9am.

  95. the_scientist*

    Informal Poll: what is your opinion of saying “I don’t know” in response to a question at work? My boss attended some seminar/workshop a while ago and she said one of the speakers strongly advised against admitting you don’t know the answer to something, because it makes you look incompetent (I’m paraphrasing heavily here).

    BUT. We work with scientific and clinical experts. In my opinion, it is worse to try to bullshit your way through something when they KNOW you don’t know. I mean these people are literal experts in the field, and will call you out on it. I always go into meetings with a ton of background work, but there may still be gaps, because I’m not an expert. I always follow up my “I don’t know” with, “but I will follow-up with Kevin, who wrote the algorithm and will be able to give a definitive answer”, so it’s not like I’m shrugging my shoulders and not taking any accountability.

    I have never received negative feedback for not having an answer, so I’m not worried about this in the context of my job performance. I’m more just curious about whether this is field-dependent, or role dependent (i.e. it’s probably worse coming from a manager than a non-manager such as myself), or company culture-dependent.

    1. Anon for always*

      I think it depends on how frequently you are saying I don’t know, and if you are saying I don’t know, or I need to check/verify, etc.

      If 95% of the time you can answer the question, then I think when you say I’m not sure, I need to look it up, etc., the other 5% of the time it’s not a big deal. It’s when you are saying I don’t know regularly that i think it starts to make people question your competence.

      1. the_scientist*

        Yeah, I can answer the question 95% of the time, and the other 5% I can find the answer with some follow-up (and I do the follow-up promptly). So it’s definitely not a question of competence. I’m also relying on my boss’s paraphrasing of the actual presentation and the impression she was left with was that it’s better to guess or give a glib/superficial response than to admit you’d need to look into it further, which doesn’t sit right with me, or my boss for that matter!

    2. Manders*

      I think the speaker is wrong here. You’re already doing exactly what I would do in that situation: telling the question asker that you don’t know off the top of your head, but you do know where to find that information, and you’ll get it to them as soon as possible.

      I don’t know of any field where bullshitting your way through an answer is wiser than actually making sure you have the correct information.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        I don’t know of any field where bullshitting your way through an answer is wiser than actually making sure you have the correct information.

        This. If I did this in my current field or in my previous one, there would be a disaster for my company and our clients.

    3. katamia*

      I used to be a teacher and a tutor, and “I don’t know” is practically never the right answer there, at least to students, unless they’re asking something pretty off the wall. You not only have to know your stuff, you have to look like you know your stuff. Instead, what I did was turn it around and have them walk me through their thought process for answering a particular question or have them tell me what they thought the answer was. Either they’d go through the correct thought process by themselves or I’d use that time to figure out the right answer.

      There really aren’t a whole lot of situations when teaching or tutoring when you genuinely won’t know something you’re supposed to know, though. For me it was mostly stuff like “Wait, I haven’t had to calculate probability since I was 13! Give me a minute to remember it!” or “Oh, crap, what is this grammar term called in English?” (Native English speaker who taught ESL, but I was never taught grammar until I started learning French, so sometimes I have trouble remembering what certain tenses and other grammatical features are called in English.)

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I used to be a teacher and a tutor, and “I don’t know” is practically never the right answer there, at least to students, unless they’re asking something pretty off the wall. You not only have to know your stuff, you have to look like you know your stuff.

        Wow! I couldn’t disagree more. In my experience as an English teacher, when I tried to “know” everything, my students didn’t have as much faith in me as when I just admitted I didn’t know something. And, by admitting I didn’t know something, I was also teaching my students a valuable lesson—it’s okay not to know something. It’s okay not to know everything.

        Especially in this day and age when you can look up online pretty much anything, “knowing” stuff off the top of your head has definitely diminished in value… at least to me.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Agreed. Whenever a conversation turns to past teachers, one of the themes that always comes up on the negative side is when a teacher didn’t know something and made it up, or when a teacher knew less than the student and punished the student for it. (I have a friend whose teacher sent a nasty note home because my friend said negative numbers exist; the teacher insisted there was no such thing.) Whereas I’ve valued teachers who said they didn’t know things and guided me through the process of looking it up.

        2. katamia*

          What sort of environment were you teaching in? I was teaching for nonprofits (where students paid for classes) and for for-profit companies, so it was really important that we looked knowledgeable so that students and their parents felt that they were getting their money’s worth. I think the situations where I was teaching rather than tutoring were a little more forgiving of my fumbles than the students I tutored were, too. I liked the students I tutored, but there was a TON of entitlement there (and a TON of not wanting to be tutored at all), and they were always on the lookout, trying to “catch” me and the other tutors in a mistake.

          I’ll also admit that as a student, if a teacher I had consistently didn’t know things that it seemed like they should know, I did lose respect for them. Everyone forgets things occasionally, but I had a few teachers who were constantly forgetting things (or maybe had never known them in the first place), and that’s really not okay.

          I still do place a lot of value on knowing things off the top of your head. Do students these days have more information easily accessible than they did when I was in school? Absolutely. But it still takes time, and when you’re trying to help a student with homework assignments for three different classes in sessions that last between 1 and 2 hours, those Google searches add up.

          1. Kelly L.*

            I assume a teacher will know the material of the class, sure. But every teacher sometimes gets asked something that’s way out of left field, and I’d rather they say they don’t know than make something up. I do agree with you on walking the student through the thought process (or the research process or whatever).

            1. katamia*

              I actually still wouldn’t say I didn’t know for most of the out-of-left-field stuff because it wouldn’t be relevant. Like if I were helping a kid with math homework or teaching the conditional tense and someone asked me who the prime minister of Sri Lanka is, I’d just say, “Let’s focus on what we’re doing here” or something like that. Although that would more be due to time constraints than a desire to keep secret the fact that I don’t know the name of every Asian politician off the top of my head.

              1. Chrissie*

                I have to agree with Kelly L. here. I used to have a schoolteacher who used diversion tactics when a student pointed our inconsistencies or plain errors she made “lets stick with the subject/lets focus on this instead/lets not confuse the other students”
                This made us loose respect more than anything else.

                1. katamia*

                  I never had that experience in school. When I was in school, I wanted the teacher to focus on the subject and get through the material, not answer every single ridiculous question my classmates had.

                2. Anonymous Educator*

                  I think you misread Chrissie’s post. It wasn’t when the students were using diversion tactics—it’s when the teacher was.

          2. Anonymous Educator*

            What sort of environment were you teaching in?

            Secondary schools—public and private.

            I was teaching for nonprofits (where students paid for classes) and for for-profit companies, so it was really important that we looked knowledgeable so that students and their parents felt that they were getting their money’s worth.

            Yeah, I can see where there may be added pressure there to appear to know more than you do.

            I’ll also admit that as a student, if a teacher I had consistently didn’t know things that it seemed like they should know, I did lose respect for them. Everyone forgets things occasionally, but I had a few teachers who were constantly forgetting things (or maybe had never known them in the first place), and that’s really not okay.

            But there’s a huge difference between not knowing your field or area of expertise and not knowing a particular fact or obscure subcategory.

            I still do place a lot of value on knowing things off the top of your head. Do students these days have more information easily accessible than they did when I was in school? Absolutely. But it still takes time, and when you’re trying to help a student with homework assignments for three different classes in sessions that last between 1 and 2 hours, those Google searches add up.

            I fully agree. My point wasn’t that because everything can be looked up we shouldn’t have to memorize anything. My point was more that it’s cool to know stuff, but it’s a lot more okay than it used to be to not have everything memorized, because you can always look it up.

      2. Callie*

        It’s fine to say “I don’t know,” as long as you then go and find out or have a workaround for the thing you don’t know. No one can know EVERYTHING. (I was a teacher, and now I teach teachers.)

    4. overeducated*

      I think working in science, being ready to say “I don’t know” and following up with how you’d want to find out is both common and expected! In my experience, scientists are often the first to say “we know next to nothing about X!” when X is something your average layman would think we know all about (the brain! birds! walking!), because they value asking hard questions that will lead to new knowledge. I think there is definitely an aspect of culture and field to this, but even without knowing your specific area or role, my expectation would be that admitting what you don’t know and being thoughtful about how you can find out would make scientists respect you more than dancing around it.

      1. hermit crab*

        I agree. That’s the whole point of science, after all!!!

        I volunteer in a high-profile, science-related public education/outreach position and it is absolutely drilled into us from Day One of training that “What a good question! Let’s figure it out together!” (or “I’ll check that and get back to you!” or whatever’s appropriate for the situation) is THE ONLY ANSWER whenever you are not 100% sure of something.

    5. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      Maybe it is field dependent but I have a lot more respect for someone who admits they don’t know but offers to find out/follow up/check with someone else. No one can know everything.

      I think what you’re doing is perfect.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      It makes me sad that this resonated with your boss:
      strongly advised against admitting you don’t know the answer to something, because it makes you look incompetent

      In my experience, the opposite is true. In fact, you may want to listen (slash have your boss listen) to the latest Reply All podcast (“Earth Pony”), especially the part about characteristics of superforecasters.

      I’ve freely admitted in most of my career when I haven’t known things, and I’ve never seen repercussions of that reflecting badly on me. The one exception was when I wouldn’t freely admit to my department head that there were books and authors she was rattling off that I hadn’t read or heard of (I don’t explicitly lie—I’d just nod my head as if I knew what she was talking about). And, of course, as life would have it, the best English teacher in our department (who also happened to be the department head’s favorite) freely admitted in department meetings “I’ve never read that person” or “I’ve never heard of that.” And I’m sure that just endeared her to the dept. chair even more.

      There’s also (I forget what the name of this “law” is) some principle that’s been proven in studies that the more you know, it just means you know more about what you don’t know.

      1. the_scientist*

        I think you read that incorrectly- it actually didn’t resonate with my boss at all, which is why we were discussing it! Boss and I are on the same page that a thoughtful admission that you don’t know something, paired with a commitment to find the information, is usually the correct course of action.

        2. Chrissie*

          For what it’s worth, if you work with somebody who DOES think saying “I don’t know” makes you look stupid, you can always not say that sentence. You can say “I need to look this detail up/We haven’t gathered enough information on this to be able to make a statement/Let me doublecheck this with the boss and get back to you”.

    7. Mike C.*

      That’s a f***ing terrible idea. Especially in fields where professional regularly argue and challenge others to find flaws or issues with the current line of thought.

    8. INTP*

      It’s a personal pet peeve for me when someone makes stuff up instead of just answering that they don’t know. Beyond just being annoying, it makes me see them as extremely selfish – they care more about looking like they know everything than not inconveniencing people by providing false information.

      In terms of work image, if you’re concerned that just saying “I don’t know” looks bad (or your boss has told you it does), you can mitigate that by following it up with a plan or explaining how to figure it out. “I don’t know the exact composition of the teapot chocolate, but I will look it up and get back to you after the meeting.” “I don’t recall the exact dimensions of the handles, but you can find that information by going to the wiki page and clicking ‘Teapot Specifications’ and then ‘Handles.'” Just something so that there’s not an “I don’t know” hanging in the air and you’ve shown that you know how to obtain information that you don’t have committed to memory.

    10. LQ*

      Not in science/clinical work. I answer “I don’t know” all the time. Usually followed by me either immediately trying to figure it out (I’m working on saying it and not just doing it, but most of my direct coworkers can read that I’ve started working on an answer) or me promising to get whatever information I can and follow up.

      Times I have to say “I don’t know” and that’s sort of the end of the conversation are usually “I don’t know why Microsoft made Word grey and grey, I can’t change it.” or “I don’t know why the Governor made that decision, here’s what the law is.” (I usually have sort of answers, but I’ve found that no one really cares about Microsoft’s reasons for design decisions around here, they are really just complaining, so a sympathetic, “I don’t know, I’ll go get a job there and work on fixing it from the inside if you want…” usually gets laughter and back on track.)

    11. Jennifer*

      I get in trouble for saying “I don’t know” a lot. You’re supposed to say, “I’ll look into it and get back to you.”

    12. TootsNYC*

      My thought is that it’s sort of like the person who was in trouble for saying “no” to the CEO.

      Don’t say “I don’t know.” Jump to the second sentence. “I’ll have to follow up with Kevin, and I’ll get back to you.”
      I’m notsaying you should give stupid answers, or lie. You just say, “I’ll get the definitive answer and get back to you.”

      It’s about the immediate impact that the phrase has.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Differences in people, eh? I feel more comfortable with a person who can say “I don’t know.” I tend to think of people who tell others never to say IDK, as fragile people, they are not very strong at all. But. There are some work places where saying IDK is a bigggg sin. We have to go with the culture of our specific work place.

  96. Golden Yeti*

    I learned a lesson this week: sometimes if you need management to step in for something, your direct manager may not be sufficient. You may need to call in bigger guns.

    I did, and this time I got an apology (which didn’t happen when direct management was handling it).

    The backstory in a nutshell is: coworker was being sexist, I tried hints and even more direct corrections and nothing changed–even after going to my direct manager. The topic came up with the next level manager yesterday, who said he would address it immediately. Today I got an apology–I guess I wasn’t being direct enough because the guy didn’t realize he was being offensive. There are still other work-related issues, but at least this is a start. I’m glad it’s out of the way.

    1. fposte*

      I’m glad it worked, but I think probably guy needs to be more thoughtful about whether he’s being sexist, not you need to be more direct about it.

    3. TootsNYC*

      nice to hear that your next-level manager was willing to act.

      And yeah, I don’t think the problem was that you weren’t being direct enough in letting him know he was offensive. That’s obfuscation on his part.

  97. Anon Accountant*

    I’m very frustrated with my job search and my job. There’s few openings so I’ve been sending unsolicited resumes. I’ve updated my resume to focus on accomplishments, tailor the cover letter for each company and focus on why I’d be a good fit for the company.

    We have a drama llama who thrives on creating problems. She will tell the bosses a story that has a grain of truth in it and the rest is a lie, an exaggeration or her opinion presented as the truth. She’s supposed to retire in August but we doubt she will retire. She’s tarnished several people’s reputations with misrepresentations. Management’s response is to wait her out until she retires.

    The problem is our management isn’t very good so when someone makes a mistake and you combined it with the drama llamas false stories she’s harmed several people’s standing with management. Sometimes we are able to become aware and correct the misrepresentations but management won’t always follow up to ask “what’s going on with Chocolate Teapot’s account”. It’s very frustrating.

    1. Mirilla*

      Your management sucks. I am in the same boat but problem employee is gone. She did more damage than you could imagine. It was hell. Even so, with her gone, management is still absent & uninterested in how the office is running. The problem and blame lies at the top. I’m struggling in my job search too.

      1. TootsNYC*

        very definitely the problem is at the top. If management wasn’t absent and uninterested, the drama lama/reputation torpedo-er wouldn’t be able to do that damage–and might not even have the urge to do so. The vacuum may be creating the problem.

        Good luck to you both!

  98. Finman*

    Any tips on how to find motivation to continue creating good work when you expect the project to go nowhere? I’m now finalizing the second project in a month that my boss has apologized to me having to continue to work on, even though he feels as though it is a pig we are putting heavier make-up onto. Problem is, the CEO is excited for the potential of this project (as he was for the last one) and is looking at in a more positive light.

    1. hermit crab*

      Oh, I’ve been there! My advice is to find some aspect of it that you feel good about (and, preferably, that you can play up at review time) regardless of the actual outcome of the overall project. For example, say there’s a document that kind of sucks and you don’t agree with the direction it’s taken — but you’re really trying to work on your graphics/layout skills and, by George, this is going to be the best-laid-out report that’s ever left your department, so at least you can chalk that up as a personal success (and maybe point that out to management). Good luck!

    2. Joanna*

      Treat it as a learning experience. Find something about it you can use to learn something new or stretch your skills so even if the end product doesn’t end up being that great, the process was still productive in other ways.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And this is actually true. Very few experiences in life are wasted. It might take years to prove that a particular experience was useful, but many times it comes up later on and is indeed useful.

  99. TotesMaGoats*

    Exhibiting at a conference in my town for yet another Friday. Unlike last week, I’ve got good wifi, electricity and the AC works. So there’s that. Also, I can walk to good places to grab food. I won’t be leaving this place super early because of heat induced migraine like last week.

    The attire choices have been interesting. Some folks are wearing clothing that is not at all work appropriate but entirely night club appropriate. And it doesn’t matter (to me) if you are wearing dark tights if your dress is really short. It doesn’t make it better. I know people are here networking for jobs and it just makes me shake my head. Maybe I’m just old.

  100. Anon for this*

    I am very sad about recent layoffs at my previously wonderful job. Every morning when I come in I turn to say hi to the person at the next desk… and then I remember that he’s not here anymore.

    I’m starting to look around for a new job now because of the layoffs. I’ve only applied to one so far, but I wrote a really great cover letter for it–based on Alison’s various posts with cover letter advice, plus someone else’s great cover letter I saw recently, plus my boss offered to look it over and made a couple of suggestions I sent it. (Yeah, my boss knows I’m looking. My boss is actually the one who told me about the position I just applied for.)

  101. Manders*

    I’ve got a boss who is flooded with work and forgets about time-sensitive tasks. Email reminders and even talking face to face aren’t helping, since there’s a lot going on and she can get sidetracked or forget the discussion. My department really, really needs her to be on top of getting things approved and sending us the information we need–we’ve got a lot of projects idling because there’s one small but crucial piece only she can provide.

    Is there any kind of program that we could use to send her periodic notifications about her to-do list? Maybe something that pops up on her computer once or twice a day? She’s too busy to remember to update a to-do list herself, so we would need a program we could update for her on our end. Is there a program like this out there? We use Trello to manage our own tasks, but I think she wouldn’t remember to check it. She really *does* want us to remind her when we need something, but too much is getting lost in the shuffle right now.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I use Wunderlist for stuff like this. It’s a phone and web app, multiple people can update one list, and you can set alerts, reminders, subtasks, and so on.

        1. Manders*

          Ok, I feel like an idiot–I can’t figure out any way to create a reminder that does something other than send an email and pop up a tiny window inside the program. I also can’t seem to assign a reminder to someone else on the team. What I need is some kind of pop-up or push notification, since she won’t remember to check a minimized window and her inbox can be a black hole.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Can you set an outlook meeting? Put it on her calendar and set the reminders. I’ve done that with success before.

      1. newreader*

        If she sets you up with the appropriate access on Outlook, you could update the reminder as appropriate. For example, a recurring daily “appointment” that is actually a to-do list in the body of the message, As items need to be added or removed, you could make those updates yourself. But she’ll have the reminder pop up every morning for her review.

  103. T3k*

    So my boss, always at the last minute, informed me that she’d be out of the office for 3 days, so that makes me happy as I hate it when she gives me busy work (like, literally, she’ll just give me busy work which I can finish it in less than 10 min.) Too many times I’ve wanted to say “You know, if I wanted to fold clothes for a living, I’d have gotten a job much closer to home and pays more per hour AND has benefits.” And no, my job has nothing to do with retail or folding clothes.

    And I HATE being treated as the de facto tech support. I don’t have a welcoming personality, I have the resting b*tch face, and I have a very low tolerance when it comes to explaining something twice and and yet my boss literally said to me one time “oh come on, you know you want to help!” No, no I do not. That’s why I didn’t become a teacher or go into customer relations. But oh hell, if I’m going to be treated like the tech person here, I might as well find an IT job so I can at least get paid better than here.

    On a side note, I received an email from a part time job I applied to and thought it was a rejection but instead it was to inform me I passed their initial screening and so my application was sent to the hiring staff to look over. It’s not the ideal job, but if they can pay at the higher end of their range, I’d gladly take it for the extra pay and smaller commute time.

    1. Doriana Gray*

      I can hear (and understand) your frustration – wishing you luck with the new opportunity.

    2. Rebecca*

      Oh yes, the de facto tech support. I HATE THAT. Every week, multiple times per week, I get interrupted to come solve someone’s problem. Where did my folder go? Why does my worksheet have numbers across the top instead of letters? Why won’t my vlookup work? Why…OMG DID YOU GOOGLE THE QUESTION? No, I thought it would be easier to ask you. HEAD HITS DESK.

  104. daphne*

    Question … A company I interviewed with who things went well after several interviews over 3 months checked in saying they had to formally interview some other referrals as a courtesy. However I was their first choice and they apologized for it dragging out a couple more weeks and asked if I had questions based on the last round of interviews. This was back in February (early) and they asked to keep them posted on my job search. I’m assuming I’m totally out as it’s been over a month and I haven’t heard back. Thoughts? Is it worth contacting them to get an update or keep job searching as I’ve been doing the last month?

    1. Laura*

      It sounds like they are no longer interested in you. I would send your contact a quick email, but keep looking for other jobs.

      1. daphne*

        That’s what I figured. Thoughts on what to say to them? I mentioned in their last email that I was actively interview (which I am) and would let the know if my status changes.

        1. Laura*

          You could just say something like “I just wanted to be in touch and see if there are plans to move forward with another interview or not. I am still actively searching for jobs, but of course XXX business is my top preference.”

          Just be polite and brief!

    2. LawCat*

      I’d just keep job searching. They sound like they have a practice of stringing people along. You’re they’re first choice, but “they had to formally interview some other referrals as a courtesy”? What’s the point? What on Earth courtesy are they extending to the other candidates if you are their first choice? If you’re really their first choice then why aren’t they offering you the job? I am not really in the know about whether this kind of thing is normal, but it seems weird to me.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      Considering that the interview process is already months long, I wouldn’t necessarily count yourself out of the running yet. I would continue searching, but I would also definitely request an update.

      1. daphne*

        The thing that was kinda heartbreaking is the following week after I did my interviews is a recruiter I’m working with told me she found a great temp-hire job for me. She sent along the JD and it was for this job. I felt like that was it and I was out of the running. I got the email update from my contact at the company the week after (if I had concerns, I was her top choice), as I know the employee who was in the role was leaving Feb 12th. The position is still up on their site as open, but I’m assuming they got a temp to fill in. I don’t know. It’s all very weird. They could be considering the temp as a perm hire, but who knows. Anyway, I sent a follow up email this morning so hopefully I’ll hear back soon.

    4. daphne*

      Whelp, they got back to me after I emailed them and said they went with another candidate that was referred to them through their founder. Boo. The hiring manager said she was bummed about it as she could see us working well together. Well, I’m glad I have closure and she said she wanted to stay in touch and apologized for the news. I’m happy that I know what happened which is what I figured anyway. The job search continues. Thanks for the feedback.

  105. h.cowl*

    Does anyone have advice about divorcing your self-worth from your salary? I mentioned a few weeks ago that I’d been laid off, and fortunately I will start a new job next week. But the job is a significant step back responsibilities-wise, and it’s a 25% pay cut. (Beggars can’t really be choosers.) I feel ashamed of how little money I’ll be making — like I’m not worth enough, and not bringing as much worth to my family as my husband is.

    I’m taking steps to make a big career change that will result in me making twice as much, and hopefully have a career that fits my strengths much better, but that’s a long process and I’d like some advice to make peace with it in the meantime.

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I don’t have advice on divorcing your self-worth from your salary, but I do have advice on divorcing your self-worth from your work/career. For me, what has worked has been finding other things that fulfill me and other goals outside of work – whether it’s running a 10K, or learning a new language. Seeing that I can be successful in a variety of settings help me focus less on my identity as a successful worker. YMMV but just a suggestion!

    2. overeducated*

      I think you just have to be as kind with yourself as you would with a good friend. It can feel easy to say to ourselves that salary is a value of worth, and lower salary means we’re worth less as people, but would you EVER say something like that to a friend? And if a friend said they felt that way, wouldn’t you try to argue them out of it? If a friend said they thought, say, customer service workers were less valuable people than programmers, wouldn’t you find that offensive? We value others for more than the money they make, and we should be careful not to fixate on that for our own measures of worth as well.

    3. Anxa*

      Think about all the horrible people (or people that do horrible things) that make a ton of money. That helps for me.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Oh, that’s tough. I was underemployed for a while, and the best I could do was remind myself that I was working towards better things. My husband was great with reminding me of that when I was feeling down, so it might be a good idea to talk with yours now and set up a way he can encourage you while you work in your new job. Sometimes having an external reminder helps more than relying just on yourself to feel better. And hey– you’re already taking steps to better things, so just remember it’ll all come back to you later!

  106. Cruciatus*

    Just a venting kind of day… Right now my coworker is in a meeting with our supervisor and director of our department for sassing my supervisor (yes, she told him not to sass her!) while she was yelling at him in front of everyone (2 others) for not forwarding me an email that was my responsibility. He sarcastically said he would just forward all his emails from now on. Not smart but he was embarrassed and frustrated. She told him the meeting today was because of the anger he showed toward her (but that comment was all he said besides OK and I will do that from now on. I won’t know the outcome until I get back from lunch. It has just been a shit week all around. My supervisor has to meet with me every day now for all these deadlines I missed and didn’t know about. She is hands off and doesn’t check in to make sure things are going well until too late. Keep in mind I am new and have been told repeatedly there aren’t enough hours in the day for those in my position and that it takes a full year to understand everything. And as we worked on those specific things she realized there were exceptions to all the rules that I couldn’t understand yet. Gah! At least I don’t feel like I totally suck. So…is it 5:00 yet???

  107. BeetSmoothie*

    How do other managers manage their open door policies? I sit in a cube farm along with all my direct reports, and none of our cubes have doors. We are a small start up type center within a much larger organization, so I foster as much transparency and communication as possible. Lately, either the team has significantly ramped up the amount they’re dropping by to ask questions or my patience and ability to switch gears has degraded significantly. Any suggestions for how I can keep the openness yet make sure I have chunks of time to actually do my own work?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Schedule work blocks — times when you can’t be interrupted because you’re focusing on your own work — and put them on a shared calendar and/or put a sign up saying “in a work block — come back at 2:00.”

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Also, in many jobs it’s totally reasonable to say, “hey, I’m trying to carve out more time to focus, so please save up non-time-sensitive stuff for our weekly check-ins, where we can tackle it all at once.”

        1. BeetSmoothie*

          These are all great suggestions, thank you all so much. I’ve tried the sign in the past and it’s been ignored – guess I need to use my words and enforce it.

    2. Jubilance*

      Schedule office hours for your team – I’ve had managers that had 2hour blocks of time, twice a week, that was solely for dropping by with questions. Of course if something was urgent we’d swing by, but the office hours were a good time for general questions/updates outside of 1-on-1 statuses.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Coming here to say pretty much the same thing. Implement a standard schedule: “Team, mornings are for meetings and information exchange. Afternoons will be dedicated to task execution. If you have a show-stopper question (i.e., work comes to a screeching halt) that has to be answered then, I’m glad to help; otherwise, please wait until morning.”

        1. TootsNYC*

          I might even add: If you want to “take a number,” Pls email me with a subject header: “ask me about…” and put some two-sentence description. I’ll pull those together each morning, and make sure we get to discuss it–either one-on-one for privacy, or in the meeting.

          So they can reach out at the moment they think of it, but you don’t have to respond.

  108. Umvue*

    I could use a little crowd sourced career advice. I’m miserable at work to a degree that surprises me and is alarming my husband. It’s not toxic the way many letter writers’ situations are, but I’m not using my skills and the office culture offers very few opportunities for interaction with other people. However, it’d be pretty inconvenient to leave at this point; I’ve been there just over a year and my last job was also fairly short (sixteen months), though that move was for structural reasons rather than anything awful about the previous job itself. I don’t want to rush into the next gig: I want to be able to be choosy, which probably means accomplishing something I can be proud of at this job. That’s proving kind of daunting, partly because the work I’m assigned is very rote, which means I will have to suggest the project myself, and getting buy-in from leadership may be a real challenge — but also partly because the toll this job is taking on my mental health is hard to overstate. It’s to the point where I no longer believe on some level that I can do the things I know I used to be able to do, simply because nobody asks me to do them; and that makes it very hard to imagine a brighter future, much less amp myself up to work toward it when putting in extra effort goes so against the grain of my workplace.

    Other readers, how have you achieved escape velocity in situations like this? I don’t want to look like a job hopper, but I’m afraid that when my two years in the clink are up that there won’t be much of me left to sell. If it matters, my field is statistics.

    1. Manders*

      To be honest, I stayed a little too long at a job that made me feel like you do right now, and I regret it. I could have moved on much faster than I did, and my confidence in my abilities took a huge hit. My advice: keep the job you have for now, but keep applying to positions you’d like to work at. You have the luxury of being selective, and unless you have a long stretch of job-hopping or unemployment before your last two jobs, I don’t think your history will be a massive problem.

      In the meantime, find something that gives you a sense of accomplishment outside of work, and guard your work/life balance fiercely.

    2. afiendishthingy*

      I think you should try to stick it out for the rest of your two years. In the meantime, can you look for fulfillment elsewhere? Take a class, or do some sort of project on your own to keep your skills sharp? Make time outside of work for things and people you enjoy. Also, I will always advocate finding a good therapist; seriously, they’re worth their weight in gold, and pretty much anyone could benefit from some counseling from time to time.

      You have less than a year to go, and I know it seems like forever, but it really will make a difference on your resume. You can do it.

      1. Umvue*

        Outside fulfillment sounds wise – it’s very hard to find the time, though. I have two ongoing collaborations from graduate school, but fitting them alongside work and caring for a preschooler is tough.

        It’s not so much that I’m planning to quit tomorrow. It’d be inconvenient for boring reasons that go beyond resume-polishing. So I don’t need to be persuaded to stay. I do need strategies for actually accomplishing anything in an environment that doesn’t expect or reward it; and for not forgetting that I *can*. My self-worth is at an all-time low (and I survived a PhD program, so believe me, I have seen low in the past). Living for 5 pm is a recipe for suicide, not a good strategy for getting my resume where it needs to be for me to be able to GTFO, you know?

        Therapy is solid advice, though, and it’s definitely on the agenda.

        1. TootsNYC*

          accomplishing anything in an environment that doesn’t expect or reward it

          Find an audience and ally at work. Not necessarily a higher-up. Who is there in your office who seems to be cheerful and interested in doing a good job, and sensible? Colleague; someone lower than you; the janitor–anybody.

          Start dropping by their desk to say, “I’m so proud–I just used the word “sent” instead of “emailed,” and it completely cleared up the whole memo” or “well, that’s another set of files neatly stowed!” and say, “What was your little victory today?”

          AND…
          Get a mini whiteboard for your desk. Write in Sharpie at the top: Little Victories; near the bottom, write Small Kindnesses

          At the end of each day (in wipe-off marker), write three things you did well–no matter how petty. Or, things that WENT well because of something you did right earlier.
          (here’s how petty I’m willing to get: I work in purple ink; I have two pen holders, one for purple, and one for everything else. I would put “put the black marker in the right holder.” Or, “had a green pen available” bcs I keep a pen for visiting Green-Writing Dept. members to use when they’re at my desk)

          (Maybe the TPS report was finally done; and just getting it done meant you’d accomplished something, even if it wasn’t the fastest/smoothest/most focused you’ve ever done it)

          (and you can write short: “green marker” “TSP report” “Sally’s Q” (which you were able to answer right away)

          Under “Small Kindnesses,” write something you did that helped someone else. You complimented someone on their work, and they seemed pleased. You held the door for someone.

          Each morning, look at yesterday’s list. Mentally remind yourself that those were definitely Good Things. (because putting those pens in the right place creates an efficiency, and it makes me feel ordered and in control–even if it doesn’t result in increased revenue)

          Then erase it, and start adding to it this day.

          Both of these are cognitive-behavioral therapy type exercises that force you to spend some brain waves on positive things about you.

          OR: get a spike and write these things on a piece of paper, and put them on the spike. Then you can flip through them. Use a happy color of paper (buy a ream of pink, and cut it into quarters, or something)

          (the novelty of the form factor is part of what will hopefully coax you into actually doing it)

          And, in terms of building yourself up outside of work: Pick a few people who make you happy when you talk with them. Make it a policy that you call one person every other day. Set a timer if it helps you (maybe that’ll keep you from saying, “I can’t call Roommate Emily; we’ll talk forever, and I don’t have time”), and say, “I only have 10/20/30 minutes–I had to set a timer, but I wanted to talk to you! How’s life on your end?”
          If you find that your unhappiness is becoming the topic of conversation, then maybe pick a topic to discuss: “Tell me about the last movie you saw.” Try to make it be more them talking, to take you out of your own head.

          Good luck! I feel so for you–it’s a tough place to be in. But there is another side, honest. And the power to get there truly lies in your hands. You’ve taken the first, important step–recognizing it.

          Just don’t make the mistake I did of defining it as a job issue. It isn’t. Not that the job isn’t involved; it sounds like it is, and it definitely was for me. But there are problems underneath that, and you can reach out for the strength you need to get through.

          Als, I wouldn’t worry about leaving now. Start job hunting–a HUGE part of depression is that feeling of being trapped. Making moves on that end will be a powerful way to counteract that burden.

    3. Nicole Michelle*

      Been there, and still there. I’m rounding the corner to 4 years at a place I wanted to leave after one month. Due to some financial things and a couple of family members losing jobs (and still out of work now), I have stayed for some stability. I’ve made it work but I’m unhappy. I’m glad for the experience though because it has strengthened my resume. But looking back, if some life circumstances hadn’t stepped in, I would have left long ago.

    4. TootsNYC*

      Please, please talk to a therapist.

      Like you, I thought I was just bored with my job. I had a clinical depression. If your husband is worried, and i you think you’re not good at things you used to be confident in, you may well have it too.

      If nothing else, the therapist’s office could be a place where you strategize far more granularly.

    5. TootsNYC*

      Also–if you really want to suggest a project at work, find someone who can be a mental partner. Someone who can listen to your plans, etc. Flat-out ask them.
      There is -someone- in your workplace who wants to put in the tiniest bit more effort.

  109. LizB*

    I had my monthly 1-on-1 with my manager this week, and attempted to bring up the issue of scheduling meetings, without much apparent luck. My manager tends to schedule meetings or make changes to meeting times VERY last-minute; we’ve had three weekly team check-ins moved or canceled recently, and several other meetings scheduled or changed with less than 24 hours’ warning. This week our usual 10am check-in was pushed back two hours via an email that was sent at 9:37 am.

    Things are slow, so I have a lot of flexibility right now, but it feels very disrespectful of our time to be constantly required to show up for mandatory meetings with such short notice, or have meetings that have been booked for a week suddenly move. I brought up to my manager that it’s difficult to plan my work when I can’t rely on scheduled meetings to stay put, and that it would be great to avoid moving meetings whenever possible. He basically responded with a bunch of excuses about how haaaaard it is to coordinate 5 people’s schedules (all of which he can see on Outlook if he bothers to look…) and how this week’s meeting got moved because he was having a really rough Monday. Um, what? I was having a rough Monday too, but I still got my ass in my chair by 10am! He finished with a vague “it probably won’t happen very often” that gave me zero confidence. Ugh.

    On the plus side, I found out that most of the busywork we’ve been doing and delays we’ve been facing have been caused by pressure from the outside agency we work with, so at least I know he’s not responsible for that. Apparently the outside agency thinks we’re a bunch of mouth-breathing randos who wouldn’t know a chocolate teapot if it bit us on the ass, so we need to create endless spreadsheets to prove that we are, in fact, competent professionals with plenty of experience in this field. They’re the ones who approached our employer about this project based on our employer’s good reputation in the field, so I find it a bit weird that they seem to have lost all confidence in our employer’s ability to hire decent people, but oh well. If they want to pay me to waste my time and skills, I guess that’s their prerogative.

    1. Dawn*

      “My manager tends to schedule meetings or make changes to meeting times VERY last-minute”

      Outside perspective here- every manager I’ve ever had has been like this. The higher up on the food chain they are, the harder it is to coordinate meetings with them. Managers are getting pulled in thirty different directions and they are often at the mercy of the people above THEM, who rearrange meetings even more willy-nilly. It’s absolutely normal for this to be a thing that happens.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Meeting reschedules are pretty common and I don’t think it’s disrespectful at all. I think calling your boss on it, depending on how you did it, might be.

      Now, if the meeting reschedules are producing bad effects, pointing out the bad effects and asking for solutions to those effects is reasonable.

      General rule of thumb in my world – meetings should be rescheduled no later than 1 hour before a meeting, or, if it’s know that people have to travel or otherwise rearrange their schedule to attend the meeting, rearrange by the end of the previous business day.

      I wonder why this makes you so mad when you say you have a lot of flexibility. I’m thinking it’s actually other things and you’re to a eating crackers stage at this point?

      1. LizB*

        I’m definitely in a bit of an eating-crackers situation, but I was very careful not to say he was doing a bad job, and I didn’t say that it felt disrespectful. I think my phrasing was something along the lines of, “I’ve noticed there have been a lot of meetings rescheduled or cancelled at the last minute lately, and that can make it kind of difficult to plan my work the way I’d like to. Is there a way we can avoid having that happen so often?” The answer I got was basically “no,” so I guess that’s that. Clearly I’m in the wrong here, so I won’t bring it up again.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Okay let me back up a sec. Our cancel and reschedules go like this.

          Example, standing Monday at 11am meeting for 5 senior managers in the division. In a normal month, we hit no more than 2 of the 4 on that day at that time. Email to all, circa 9am: “Gah, double booked, I have an 11am interview, sorry. Can we go at 10?” or “Kid sick, working from home, can we do tomorrow at 11 am?” or “totally under it this am, need to crunch, tomorrow at 11?”. There’s usually a bunch of “fine!” and then the meeting owner, which is me, flips the outlook occurrence. Reschedules are almost never rescheduled.

          I have four standings a week, in addition to one time occurrence meetings and the standings all have about the same rate of reschedule, with the same relative ease of process in doing so. (I used to have 3 standings all on Tuesday morning and that was a bear because I’d flip people’s times if somebody else had a conflict. I flipped this one guy’s time so many times, I did feel bad and I’m sure at one point he was like, OKAY JUST GIVE ME THE 10AM SLOT ALREADY SINCE THAT’S WHEN WE MEET 3/4 of the time!)

          Going out on a limb to say that I really don’t think you’d feel the way you feel if you were in our circumstances because we’re all just working together to get the job done and sometimes we have conflicts and then we help each other through the conflicts.

          So! Maybe this guy has a labored reschedule process that drains a of time or maybe he treats you as if you time is unimportant generally, which then magnifies the meeting reschedule issue.

          1. LizB*

            I think maybe it’s that he’s always the one that has the conflict, and doesn’t really ask about what other times would work for us, he just reschedules to suit his schedule and expects we’ll be there? There’s no input from us, it’s just “this meeting is now happening at noon” or, more likely, “I can’t make this meeting, I’ll reschedule it” with no suggestion of alternate timing, so now I have to keep my schedule open until he figures out when he wants it. If I schedule a client meeting, and then he reschedules another meeting to conflict with it, he’ll let me go to the client meeting, but he acts very disappointed and reminds me several times about how team check-ins are mandatory. Yes, I get that, and my schedule was clear on Monday at 10 when team check-ins usually happen, but I thought Wednesday at 1 would be safe!

            He also uses meetings as a way to micromanage — insisting on in-person meetings for topics that could easily be covered remotely (we all work from home 90% of the time) so he can walk in and check to make sure we’re really meeting, making us send him calendar invitations for ALL appointments we schedule because he doesn’t like to click over to check our calendars (which are all shared with him), calling us to make sure we got his calendar invites and plan on showing up. He’s just a weird manager in many ways, which I think is definitely magnifying this issue.

            1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

              Now he’s annoying me.

              Yeah, the heart of the problem there is process (and his attitude toward/execution of it). It’s not the actual reschedule. It’s his disregard for everybody but himself during it.

              So! I’m going to loop all the way back around and agree with you on the disrespectful part. In our world, it would literally never happen that someone rescheduled or cancelled a meeting without at least

              1) a mild apology and
              2) a new time right then AND
              3) an agreement from all parties that the new time works

              (exception to “agreement from all parties” is if it’s a really big meeting like, all sales reps or whatnot, but big meetings are rarely ever rescheduled)

              Maybe there’s an angle to get him to change that part of the process. I hope it works out for you!

      2. TootsNYC*

        I’m kinda w/ Wakeen’s Teapots here.

        Most meetings that I’ve seen get canceled are canceled because people didn’t realize how hard it would be to keep the meeting until pretty late in the game.

        You sound sort of generally crabby–I’m wondering about the crackers too.

    3. MsMaryMary*

      Frankly, I don’t mind last minute reschedules half as much as I mind no-shows. I hate sitting in a meeting room trying to to figure out how long I should wait to see if someone is running late or not coming. One of the worst offenders in our office is very protective of his time and is furious when someone no-shows to his meeting, but doesn’t think to send a quick email or text if he’s hung up somewhere. He also has a habit of not accepting calendar invitations for internal meetings (like, is he waiting for a better offer?), so it’s hard to tell if he didn’t see a meeting invite, or if he’s running late/stuck in another meeting.

      I also don’t think cancelling meeting with less than 24 notice is last minute. Less than an hour’s notice is bad, I’m not going to argue. But there are lots of situations when something goes sideways in the morning, so you need to rearrange your afternoon schedule. I try not to do it to clients, so if something needs to move it’s going to be the internal meeting.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Actually, less than 30 minutes is bad. An hour? That’s reasonable to me. Up until then, they thought the meeting would happen. or hoped it would.

    4. AnotherFed*

      I don’t mean to laugh at your pain, but 24 hours’ notice would be wonderful! Our rule is that an apology is owed if the reschedule happens less than 15 minutes before the meeting, but otherwise it’s all fine. I have 5 standing meetings that almost never reschedule (but about 1/wk cancels), but anything will move around like musical chairs. We just keep an eye on who’s required quorum at each thing, and manage our double bookings with an eye to that.

      If your work culture is more like mine, you may just have to take a deep breath and go with it – there’s just no way a culture like that is going to shift without a major change from the top and buy in from everyone on the team.

    5. NicoleK*

      Boss at Old Job canceled one on ones frequently and usually at last minute. Once one on ones were canceled, only 10% chance of being rescheduled. Frequently came to management meetings late or not at all. Sometimes she called in, sometimes she no called no show.

  110. Anon for this*

    Venting time: Found out today that a search committee I was on (we interviewed six applicants, four of whom were internal, all of whom met the minimum requirements as mandated by HR) was in large part a waste of time. We reviewed 30+ applications, selected six for interviews and gave the hiring manager our top three choices (who were all internal) to interview and make a final decision. Hiring manager went to HR, who said all four internal candidates should be interviewed by hiring manager. Hiring manager and HR decided that two of the applicants didn’t have specific credentials (mind you, everyone met the experience/credential qualifications) so that eliminated them, a third apparently lacked the certain direct experience. As a result, the fourth internal candidate (who was interviewed but was not on our list to move forward) was offered the position. It sure would have been nice to know that

    a) there were additional minimum requirements
    b) we should have just forwarded the person with the most credentials/directly relevant experience if the reviews/interviews we conducted weren’t going to matter.

  111. BreadandBabyMaker*

    Checking if my reaction to a current work annoyance is off-base: In a few short weeks I will be going on maternity leave, so I recently met with HR to discuss FMLA, disability pay, benefits, etc. During this meeting I asked about how any unpaid time would affect my yearly performance bonus and pay raise (we are coming up on fiscal year end and I will be taking ~1 month upaid right before). They let me know that both bonuses and pay raises are docked for any unpaid time off, so my bonus and raise would only be ~11/12 of what I “earned” from my review score. While I am not happy about it, I can understand the logic for prorating the performance bonus. What has me really mad is the docked pay raise. We do raises based on a percentage of the current year’s salary, so my future earning potential will be handicapped here on out. Am I wrong to be upset about this?

    HR did say they sometimes reevaluate and give employees their full raises, so I am currently planning a discussion with my reasoning why they should rethink this policy. My hope is to get them to agree in writing that I will receive my full raise because HR is known for promising one thing and then backing out.

    1. misspiggy*

      How could it be anything other than gender discrimination to undercut women’s earning potential like this? It might be worth consulting a lawyer and sharing the upshot with HR as a heads up, wouldn’t want the company to risk legal trouble, etc.

      1. fposte*

        It’s legal to consider FMLA time as not counting toward merit increase or bonus time as long as all other unpaid time off is subject to the same penalty. I’ll attach a URL in followup.

        That doesn’t mean it’s not upsetting, B&BMaker. I think they’re being really short-sighted here.

        2. BreadandBabyMaker*

          Oh, I know it is perfectly legal. HR was quick to mention that to me in the meeting because I have been a bit outspoken about other instances of sexism (e.g. only women are required to help cover the front desk when the receptionist is out, though there are plenty of men in the same position with less seniority, even have an email from a while back stating the hr will only ever ask women to do this).

          1. fposte*

            Sorry, I know you do–I was meaning that in reply to miss piggy’s statements about lawyering up.

      2. Being anonymous*

        FMLA doesn’t just apply to women, so as long as any FMLA leave is docked the same way, I don’t see how it’s gender discrimination.

  112. Elle*

    We are having birthday cake here today. I don’t eat cake; so do you think it would be rude if I took my piece home for my husband?

    1. Megs*

      I’d wait until everyone has had a piece then pop in and ask if it’s okay to take a piece of the leftovers home, assuming there are leftovers, which in my experience there often are and people are happy to get rid of them.

      1. T3k*

        This. My mom does this all the time at her job when they have catering and, after everyone has gotten their fill, she’ll ask to make sure she can bring some home, which they’re usually ok with.

  113. Preux*

    I recently started a new job (at the beginning of the year). I was originally planning for this company to be my long-term ‘home’, but now that I’m here I’ve identified some…cultural fit issues. I also think I made a mistake by choosing to stay in banking.

    The problem is, I’m not sure what else I want to do or what I might be qualified for. I plan to stick things out here for another couple of years at least, but I figured I had better start figuring out now what I want to do.

    Does anybody have tips on figuring out where to go from here? Honestly I think I would like to get into coding – I have learned some code recreationally and I enjoy it, getting in the zone and making the code do what I want, but the one language I know is not one that is going to do me any good professionally. The experience I do have is in banking (teller work, supervising teller line, handling general ledger entries etc).

    Really any input would be helpful…I’m not even sure what advice to ask for, that’s how lost I am.

    1. misspiggy*

      I can’t tell whether you want a change of job duties or a change in culture most. If the latter, do lots of research before deciding what sort of field would suit you. Then you can work out whether your skills need upgrading for the type of work that is available in that area.

    2. Nicole Michelle*

      Have you thought about coding classes? I don’t know that field at all but I know if it were me, I’d try taking on some classes and then seeing if the people there can give you input on the career options for you. It strikes me as a really growing field, so I’d say go for it.

      In terms of transitioning out of the current career, my idea would be maybe to take on some side part time projects if you can, just to get a bit of experience under your belt.

    3. Joanna*

      I’m likewise in retail banking and considering whether coding is something to pursue in the future. There’s plenty of options for learning to code for free or cheap (try Coursera and Codecademy) so perhaps try developing your coding skills in your spare time to see if you enjoy the languages that are in demand.

      There’s things about your experience in banking you can use as selling points when pitching yourself for coding jobs. Coding requires high attention to detail, something you’ve had plenty of experience with processing transactions or working on the general ledger. Depending on what you’re coding, you may have to deal with systems that contain sensitive customer information. What better way to prove that than having a track record of trustworthiness and professionalism in a job where’s you’re routinely using systems with the private financial data of millions of people accessible?

  114. Not Karen*

    How much salary growth is expected throughout one’s career?

    I realize that’s an open-ended question with a lot of factors, but any insight is helpful. I don’t know what to expect at all. For instance, does one salary continue to increase with experience, or does it plateau at some point? Assume no further education.

      1. Not Karen*

        I’m in medical/scientific research, but I’d be interested to hear more about how/why growth would vary across fields.

        1. Megs*

          For lawyers, it varies hugely depending on the work you do. If you’re in a state government office, you might not expect your salary to grow much at all outside of promotions – merit or even cost of living increases can be rare (I believe federal positions have more standard pay increases for experience). If you work for yourself or in a small practice, it’s entirely about how much business you’re bringing in. You make what you charge and you charge what people will pay. For large firms, your pay is based on your hours and your billable rate, the latter of which can be expected to grow steadily every year.

          So for me, hoping to work in government positions, I would hope for some small cost of living increases but not expect much salary growth unless I’m promoted. My husband, on the other hand, is a partner in a large law firm and has seen his salary grow quite a bit over the last few years, something he can expect to continue for a few years until he maxes out the billable rate, at which point it’s all about the hours. His starting salary is about where I’d hope to be at my peak, while his expected salary for the most part doesn’t exist in government work.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I can speak only to my experience. Most of the schools I’ve worked at will give you a nominal “cost of living” increase of 2-3% every year, and if you want a significant jump in salary, you have to either switch job titles/responsibilities (e.g., go from Assistant Director of Admission to Director of Admission, or go from regular English teacher to department head) or switch jobs entirely (move to another school). I did work at one school, though, that annually gave its teachers a 10% raise. That was nice (though atypical).

    3. AnotherFed*

      I’m in engineering, where typically salaries increase very nicely with experience (I think I had 10-15% a year for the first 5 years, but that included a promotion) as you get more senior, but then you start hitting plateaus where you’ve hit the top of the pay range for your title. Then it’s a matter of building the experience to get a promotion to a role that has more leadership or even management duties, and it can bottleneck because there’s far fewer team leads than basic engineers, and far fewer Chief Engineers than team leads. If your company, business area, or geographic region is growing fast, or if you just get lucky on jobs opening up, you might not hit the plateau until you’re at the point where the only way to move up is to move into management roles.

  115. anon for this*

    Ugh, I have hit a snag in my quest to get hired as a regular employee at my temp job. I am going anon for this because this is a long-winded rant and my grammar will probably atrocious. Quite frankly, this is playing out like Shakespearean play or a Greek tragedy with a slew of colorful characters and an extremely convoluted plot (there is actually a lot more that I had to leave out). And I might be the figurative sacrificial lamb of the story as a means to punish someone else.

    When I last reported a status here, my Boss and I had a conversation about being brought on as a permanent employee. We revisited the conversation since he had not been able to take further action on this due to his busy schedule. He told me to coordinate a meeting with the HR Director (I am his assistant, FYI) so we can get this rolling.

    My Boss himself is kind of an interesting character — charming, charismatic, likable, bold, and very kind. He’s overall a very influential, respected leader in our industry. People love him and it is funny to see some people get starry-eyed when they meet him. And I would be lying if I said that it doesn’t hurt that he is handsome. He is the quintessential classical hero. He, however, also has his flaws: arrogant, reckless, impulsive and hates to play by the rules.

    Well, not everyone likes him and his biggest detractor here at my workplace is probably the HR Director herself. She tends to keep to herself, but I always got a negative vibe from her. And I think it is telling how toxic her direct reports are, specifically the Office Manager and the HR Coordinator. The OM puts on a friendly face every day, but is passive-aggressive and petty; she will pretend to forget favors I have requested, and more than once while I was still in training mode, she gave me false information about how to perform certain tasks. The HC is the Gossip Queen of the Office. She is super friendly with me and keeps having conversations with me about openings at this organization, but I think she leverages these conversations to get dirt on my department. Both OM and HC have had petty feuds with some of the employees in my department and I occasionally get caught in the crossfire.

    When I requested a meeting for My Boss and HR Director (I had to go through the OM, who coordinates the HR Director’s calendar), instead of getting an answer she goes and tells HC. HC then pulls me in her office and inquires more about the nature of the meeting. I give her an honest but brief answer that My Boss wants to bring me on permanently (he also wanted to discuss hiring for more positions, but I didn’t mention that). She tells that she doesn’t want to upset me or overwhelm me, but there are hurdles, and this is when another character comes into the story.

    Here is the background: One of my fellow co-workers – we will call her Q – is also an assistant in my department. However, while Q did some initial admin duties when she was hired a year ago, her role is that of floater in my department; she works on little projects or assists some of the managers in my department with projects. The overall admin tasks, like expense reports, keeping track of the budget, coordinating meetings, etc, are done by me. I mentioned this in the “is this normal in the workplace” thread not too long ago, but my workplace is a stickler for specific titles and having people be specialists rather than generalists – we have a ton employees with titles like of Director of Endowments or Manager of Email Marketing; no one is just a Marketing Associate or a Development Coordinator. This is where it gets sticky: HC let it slip that Q may be My Boss’ niece. And MY Boss might have bent the rules to get her hired, possibly giving the impression that she was going to replace his last assistant, who was planning on retiring soon. HC said that HR Director is getting suspicious of Q’s role really is for the department because she thinks Q is the one currently assisting My Boss. HC told me that if he goes through with hiring me, HR may audit Q’s position and question whether she is needed or not. As I was leaving, HC said (in an almost gleeful tone), “Anon, I just don’t want there to causalities of your boss’ impulsive decision.”

    WTF is this overly dramatic nonsense?!

    For the record, I believe My Boss likely did this and that Q could be his niece (I observed early on that they had a very father-daughter dynamic). Like I said, he is impulsive and reckless and I don’t think he considers how his rebellious behavior affects others. If he did indeed do this, it is quite disappointing on his part.

    That being said, HR Director and her minions are also leveraging me to get back at My Boss. She is totaling feigning ignorance about Q’s role because the entire reason I was brought on as a temp to begin with was to cover for My Boss’ retired assistant, as well as an assistant for the Senior Director in our department. The HR Director facilitated the entire opportunity for me since I was doing a temp assignment in another department at the time. She knew the job description, she knew what was expected, so I think she is full of crap about being confused about what Q’s role is. It is quite possible that Q’s role does need to be more defined, but while the hiring surrounding her might have been suspect, it has been no secret as far what type of work she does. And why can’t some of the managers in our department have someone like her to assist on projects and grow?

    I also found out there is a deadline as to when my time is up and it is much sooner than I was led to believe: End of April versus June. HC told me that HR Director advised her not to tell My Boss when my time is up until a week before; she claims it is policy or something along those lines. HC even said something like, “I really want to say something to him so we can fix your status here at XYZ org, but my boss is advising me against it.” Basically, they want to give him the smallest window of time to act on this.

    Quite frankly, I feel like a pawn in some of game bs workplace politics. I know I should take this as opportunity to run, but I really like working for My Boss, flaws and all. He is the kind of boss that will elevate your career and give you the development you are looking for. I could tolerate the toxicity of this environment if it means elevating my career. All my previous supervisors have been duds and if I don’t get hired here, I am back to the stagnation that has really plagued my career the past 3-5 years.

    Ugh, stay tuned for the next chapter…

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Who is HC? I couldn’t follow that part.

      Otherwise, wtf. Insane, inappropriate, not going to get better.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          HR told you all that? HR?

          What the what what what.

          This is beyond insane. I can’t even with the level of inappropriate.

          What I would consider doing, besides running straight out the door, is going to the HR director and asking her if what her coordinator said to you is true. If she is not dysfunctional, she’ll be horrified and hopefully she’ll be helpful.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      You totally are a pawn. They’re using you to undermine your boss and stir up trouble. The discussion about what happen’s to Q’s job should not have happened at all. Big fat nope.

      I’d be looking, but that’s me. I wouldn’t want to work with these drama llamas. It won’t get better even if you are elevated, unless you can fire them. :P Maybe boss could give you a glowing recommendation.

  116. WhiskeyTango*

    Would love some advice on what to do when you feel like you’re being pushed out of your job. Over the last 18 months, our new director has been systematically pushing out people she didn’t hire (i.e., people who pre-date her at the company). Out of 10, there are only three of us left… I was lucky enough to be under the radar for a while (I kept my head down and worked my tail off), but now she’s turning on me. What has happened in the past is she will be contacted by someone who wants to come work for our company, but since she doesn’t have room in the budget to hire more people, she fixates on one or two people in that role and pushes them out (tactics include giving someone an unsustainable amount of work until they push back and then suggesting they aren’t in the right role… some people she did this to had been the job for 10 years or more…) And yes, senior management is aware of what she’s doing and is “working on it.” Our clients are sick and tired of having their accounts reassigned.

    My workload has been unsustainable for 3 quarters (she’s assured me every time there is a new hire that I’m at the top of the list for relief, but then she’s always had reasons for not following through). She finally agreed a few weeks ago to give my smallest (and least time consuming) client to one of her new hires. Yesterday she assigned me a much larger and far more resource draining client. There were a few other management issues she brought up yesterday that were bizarre and came out of left field. I feel like I’m on her hit list. I don’t think any management changes will be forth-coming.

    I work in a highly specialized field… it’s hard to move. I recently decided to get an advanced degree that would give me more flexibility, but that will take two years. What do I do in the meantime? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

    1. Mike C.*

      Document every change that has happened to show that this is systematic, including all the times you were promised relief and bring it to the senior managers. I think it’s totally fair to say that you’ve seen this happen to others and they end up getting pushed out. You need to reiterate to them that this is a very serious problem and that you need help now.

    2. NJ Anon*

      Got pushed out, best revenge was getting a better job. Board didn’t care that new boss brought all his buddies and past co workers in.

  117. Do you have a side hustle?*

    I’d like to hear from people who have (or have had) side gigs or part time jobs while working a full-time job. Why did you decide to do it? What work did you do? How did you manage the responsibilities of both jobs, plus home life?

    I’m also interested in hearing from anyone who taught themselves web design/development. I’m considering doing that myself, but debating whether building up my job-related skills will be more profitable in the long run even if it doesn’t result in increased income right now. So knowing how long/how much effort it took to teach yourself to be good enough to get paid will hopefully help me make a better decision (or be at peace with the decision once I make it)

    1. Laura*

      No personal experience… but a couple of my coworkers had/have part-time jobs in addition to our 40+ hours per week. One worked at Michael Kors on the weekends for the employee discount, but she recently quit because she missed having weekends free/doesn’t need new handbags that badly.

      Another is a server at a local restaurant at night. It’s my understanding that he does this because he is deeply in debt and can’t make his monthly payments without additional income.

      1. SL #2*

        A former coworker did weekends at a high-end fitness wear store for the discounts and because most of her running buddies also worked at that store. They did 5Ks and yoga classes and all sorts of things together anyway, so working together grew naturally out of that. I’m not sure if she’s still there now that she’s moved departments and gotten a promotion, but she did really enjoy it when she was there.

    2. the_scientist*

      It’s not a paid gig, but I have a short-term (seasonal) volunteer position that might as well be an extra job because it requires full 8-hour shifts. Since I work M-F, I do this on the weekends during the season, and honestly, it’s really wearing on me…to the point that I’m not sure if I can continue to do it next year. My partner does the same activity, so we’re really just unable to manage our lives during the 4 months or so that we do this. Like, our apartment resembles a trash heap at the moment. We haven’t had the energy to reconcile our finances in months. Meal planning has gone out the window, because finding the time to do a big shopping + cooking marathon is impossible. Errands have to be done on weeknights, after work. I’m exhausted 100% of the time. My partner deals better with the physical demands of this work, so he’s not as tired as I am, but he’s also less bothered by the general lack of organization so I think the whole thing wears on him less than it does me. He has been great about picking up more of the work around the house, but it’s still not enough to stay on top of it 100%.

      It might be different if it was something that could be done from home, or in shorter/variable shifts (although shifts are worse in different ways), but my experience, working a full-time M-F gig and then full days on the weekends requires an almost superhuman endurance. Certainly, you can expect that some lifestyle things (hobbies, fitness, relationship time) will need to be sacrificed to keep up with the demands of the rest of your life.

      1. Do you have a side hustle?*

        That sounds like a pretty demanding gig. Is there any way you can scale it back to 1 day per weekend?

        I’ve started tutoring and I have clients 5 days a week, and I’m already tired of it. When I wake up in the morning I want to go back to bed and when I think of going to work and then being out until 8 or 9 I kind of want to cry. That’s why I’m hoping to do something more profitable on a per-hour basis (or at least more flexible, and where I don’t need to talk to people as often).

        1. the_scientist*

          Some weeks I only do it one weekend day a month but it’s all dependent on need/availability/partner’s schedule and a bunch of other factors. I guess on the positive side, it’s only 3-4 months of the year, so at least there’s a hard deadline on the other side.

          Definitely, more profitable work will help you regain some balance. Is it possible to start being pickier about your tutoring clients in the meantime? I know someone who tutors on the side- he has a PhD, so he can get away with charging a lot per hour and also being really picky about his clients- he basically won’t accept anything below a 3rd or 4th year undergrad, and makes an effort to pick clients who are really committed to improvement and work well with him. He’s working hard, but at least he likes the clients he has, which makes it bearable!

          1. Do you have a side hustle?*

            I have been a little pickier. I charge more now than I used to, and I’ve been less flexible about schedules and discounts since I started. But I have a BComm and I tutor high school math so it’s not like I’m doing something super skilled. I do agree that there’s some frustration when working with clients who don’t seem that committed to improving, but I think I really want to move away from tutoring altogether (except maybe online only, so I don’t have to leave my house).

        2. JazzyisAnonymous*

          For five years I have done freelance writing on the side. As my hours at work have picked, I’ve done less and less. I doubt I could handle it if I actually had to go somewhere to work the side gig. I can still chill out at my apartment on the nights or weekends that I spend writing. Usually have on music or Netflix or something. I don’t make a ton of money but it helps making extra payments toward debt.

          1. Do you have a side hustle?*

            I thought about trying that out, but pretty much everything I read says you’ll have to start out working crappy jobs for crappy clients until you get to the point where you’re earning an effective rate of something like $10/hour. I figured if I was going to have to put all those hours in to get paid decently I might as well choose a field that has a higher ceiling for skilled work (hence, toying with the idea of web design). How has your experience been?

    3. Not Karen*

      One fall I worked at a farm stand on the weekends as something mentally easy to offset my brainy job. It was exhausting. All I did was work, eat, and sleep. That said I can barely handle a full-time job on its own so if you’re more able than me you will have an easier time. I don’t know how other people do it. It disappoints me that I can’t do it because I’d really like to make extra debt payments.

    4. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I’ve done it a few times. Any time I’ve added an expense, I usually get a side gig just to offset the expense and maintain my existing lifestyle. Most of the time, I was single so I didn’t have much to manage as far as home life (and I’m known for my cleaning habits!).

      I’ve done babysitting, part-time retail and consulting. Consulting was the most profitable but the least reliable. Babysitting was probably the best because it was so easy (usually at night, could read a book, didn’t require any mental work, got cash right away and was nearby.)

      1. Do you have a side hustle?*

        What sort of consulting did you do? Was it related to what you did at your day job?

        1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

          Yeah, it was related to what I did at my day job and was for companies I’d worked at in the past because I had some niche experience that they couldn’t find elsewhere.

          1. Do you have a side hustle?*

            Ok, that makes sense. I don’t think I have enough experience in anything to do that myself right now.

            You talk about taking on more work in order to fund (I’m assuming optional) parts of your lifestyle. How did you make that trade off? I’m struggling with having a reasonable mindset about money, and giving myself permission to do things that would be less than financially optimal but not actually harmful. I guess that’s why my desire for the side hustle is so strong.

            1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

              Well, babysitting and consulting worked best for that trade-off. The schedule was flexible, I could turn it down if I wanted. I would always try to find an easy and convenient once a week or twice a month babysitting gig. I didn’t want it to interfere with my life or add stress. If it did, it was unsustainable for me.

              1. Do you have a side hustle?*

                So if you couldn’t afford the thing you wanted without working a stressful schedule, did you just not do it? Or how did you evaluate whether an expense was ‘worth’ the extra work, or if it was important enough that you would still buy it even though you wouldn’t be able to cover the cost with side work?

                1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

                  I’m not sure if I can help you much there as I didn’t put a TON of thought into it and I’m sure it varies from person to person. For me: getting a new car – something I need a side gig for. Maintaining my hair every 6 weeks – something I could go without if I get too stressed by the side job. It’s really about your own values and priorities and how much wiggle room you want.

    5. MostCommonLastName*

      I’m an author with a day job (though if I’m honest, the day job came first and I’ve only recently become an official author. I’ve been writing for fun for years though). I have two deadlines next month, so most of my weekends and evenings have been focused on editing one novel and finishing the first draft of the second.

      Since I technically work from home for this, it’s not too hard to juggle. I set aside at least two to three hours every evening, except Tuesdays which is when me and my partner go curling, to focus on my work. If I finish the amount I have set for myself, then I have extra time to watch TV or whatever fun activity I want. Keeping some kind of schedule for myself I find really helps, but I’m a chronic procrastinator, so I need it. This is I think a bit of an unusual situation with both my deadlines so close together which is partially my fault. I’m hoping, fingers crossed, if I can get more books published I’ll have more time between deadlines so I can do things more leisurely.

    6. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I took a part time evening job about 13 years ago. It was temporary, only lasting a few months. I didn’t have kids and had just met my now husband. So it wasn’t too hard to balance things. As for why, I needed the money. It was nearing Christmas time and I wanted some extra cash to help pay for it.

      Currently I’m starting my own business, but since it will be a home business, I don’t think it will be as hard as say being at another work location for a few hours a night. This time the reason is so I can hopefully leave this job.

    7. Manders*

      My partner runs a podcast as a side hustle. It doesn’t work out to that much extra money (probably less than minimum wage in our area), but because it’s related to the field he wants to work in, it’s definitely been a factor in job offers he’s received. He could do more to monetize it if he were willing to be more proactive about seeking out advertisers or promoting his Patreon.

      1. Manders*

        (I should add that things like podcasts and blogs rarely become a steady source of income themselves, and when they do they require a lot of unpaid labor up front, so usually they’re more like a hobby that happens to pay off in a better professional reputation and maybe a small amount of cash. I wouldn’t hold out hope of starting a podcast and immediately cashing in.)

        1. Do you have a side hustle?*

          Yup. I’ve heard lots of recommendations for affiliate marketing or doing product reviews or just monetizing blogs. I’m impressed that your partner has made it work (and this blog is another great example of making it work, obviously!), but I don’t think that’s a direction I want to go in myself.

        2. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

          Agreed. I had a podcast, never made a dime. But it was more of a hobby than something business based. People that make enough money off of it to earn a living (Jim Harold, Scott Johnson) usually have a whole network, produce multiple podcasts, and sometimes even books or other side hustles to their side hustle. :)

    8. NJ Anon*

      Been there, done that. For the most part it was a financial decision. For example, I wanted to save money to go back to school. Took a part-time job, banked it for tuition. Once I had enough I quit. Currently, I am heavily involved with a nonprofit that is not my day job. My kids are grown and it is something I am passionate about so it works. I still make time for family stuff too.

      1. Do you have a side hustle?*

        What did you do part-time? Was it a lot of hours? How did you balance that with your day job?

    9. Jillociraptor*

      I have a full-time job, and am also launching a nonprofit as my side hustle. My professional role is as a project manager/executive assistant, and in my side hustle, I manage the high-level strategy of the organization. There are a few reasons I decided to do it: my day job is a step down in terms of complexity and time needed from my previous position, so I needed opportunities in my life to keep those high-level strategy skills sharp, and I also really deeply believe in what we’re doing with my side-hustle, so there’s a heart component too.

      To manage both, I try to structure my day and do lots of smart planning so I’m continuously moving things forward. My day job is well-defined: I know I’ll be in the office from about 9 to about 5, and there’s not much likelihood that that will change suddenly. So for my side hustle, I know have two blocks of time every day when I can work: that 7-9am block, and then in the evenings. I try to reserve my mornings for phone calls, and do lots of walk-and-talks while I walk to work, and then knock out more individual work in the evenings. I’m working on automating and systematizing as much of my side hustle as I can so that I’m not bogged down with “to-dos” and low-impact decision-making (what to post on Facebook today!) but can do the good strategic thinking I get paid for.

      Honestly, I love that I get to use my brain in so many different ways. It gets overwhelming sometimes, but so does having just one job, right?

    10. newreader*

      I worked as a part-time weekend bank teller for years in addition to a full-time weekday job to help make ends meet. I also attended college part-time to earn a degree so I could eventually earn enough at just one job. Juggling the responsibilities of it all required much assistance from my spouse for household chores.

  118. INTP*

    This is a cliche “Is it legal?” question, but here goes.

    Is it legal to have a blanket rule that all managers must step back into non-management positions once they reach a specific age (say, 67)? The managers would still be employed. I’m not sure if their pay would be cut. They just wouldn’t be allowed to hold management positions.

    Now, I think this is an idiotic idea for a trillion different reasons that I could write a novel on, but this is a rule that an acquaintance wants to implement, and I don’t think he’ll be convinced by anything other than legality. I assume it’s also illegal, as if you are systematically demoted at a certain age then you can certainly argue that you are being passed over for promotions and raises due to your age, but this person doesn’t believe me and thinks it’s perfectly legal because the people would not be fired. (The reasoning has to do with certain managers staying on until well into their seventies, not keeping their departments up-to-date, with such specialized work that upper management doesn’t necessarily know what is up-to-date or not, and demoralizing junior employees who see no room for growth when people aren’t retiring. I don’t think this is the way to handle any of those issues, but my opinion on that was not heeded.)

    1. afiendishthingy*

      IANAL but I am 99.99% sure that is illegal. You’re removing someone from a position. Just because you’re not firing them from the company doesn’t make it legal! It’s not really any different from saying women can’t be managers.

    2. Van Wilder*

      Omg! Ridiculous. I am not a lawyer but it definitely sounds like age discrimination to me. I don’t think it matters that they’re not being fired. I know that since you’re a frequent reader you probably told your acquaintance that if his managers aren’t performing, he should deal with their performance issues! But yeah, still had to say it. If room for growth is a problem, maybe he should come up with a more generous retirement plan.

      Oh, also. Imagine how that would work? All the old/former managers hanging around, working in departments they used to run, refusing to listen to the new managers, trying to still manage their people? Nightmare.

      1. INTP*

        I did say that! I explained that creating blanket rules to solve issues pertaining to individual people is never effective. I just got a bunch of rationalizations about why people in his industry have to be handled differently.

    3. art_ticulate*

      IANAL either, but… that seems like it could qualify as age discrimination based on the EEOC guielines: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm

      It would be one thing if they were being asked to step back because of job performance. It’s another thing entirely if it’s solely based on age.

    4. Megs*

      This sounds super illegal to me (I’m a lawyer but not an employment lawyer). Age discrimination isn’t just about whether or not you’re firing people. Your acquaintance needs to check with a lawyer before implementing anything like this.

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Remember, it is grounds for a discrimination lawsuit if you’re passed over for a promotion or a raise in favor of someone who is less qualified but not a member of your protected minority class, and if the manager/employer explicitly states that the minority class was the ONLY consideration, IANAL but that sounds like a slam dunk to me. And I’d say demoting someone due to membership in that class goes even further than being passed over.

    6. Gandalf the Nude*

      PROHIBITION OF AGE DISCRIMINATION
      SEC. 623. [Section 4] (a) (1)

      It shall be unlawful for an employer to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual or otherwise discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual’s age.

      Denying management roles to folks of a certain age falls squarely in the fail to hire or discharge category. And if he also planned to reduce their salary when he demoted them, he’d be discriminating with respect to their compensation. Tell your friend it’s not based on overall employment (if they have a job, he’s good), but is evaluated by individual and role. What he’s suggesting is absolutely, do not pass go, do not collect $200, illegal.

    7. Doriana Gray*

      Is it legal to have a blanket rule that all managers must step back into non-management positions once they reach a specific age (say, 67)? The managers would still be employed. I’m not sure if their pay would be cut. They just wouldn’t be allowed to hold management positions.

      Whaaaaaaat? Talk your acquaintance out of this insane idea immediately if you can.

  119. Bye Academia*

    I’m a little late to the thread, but thank you Alison and everyone else who has responded to my recent-ish questions about my job search. I had an interview for a (seemingly) great job this week, and it went really well! Thanks to Alison’s book and the advice here on more specific details, I felt very prepared. I wasn’t as nervous as I usually am for these things, and I think I came across well. I won’t know for a few weeks whether I got the job, but either way, I feel like I did everything I could and that’s all you can ask.

    Thanks again!

  120. Waiting By the Phone*

    I had an interview on Monday that I thought went extremely well; they said they had a few more interviews to do and hoped to be making an offer before the end of the week. Ring, phone, ring…

  121. Snazzy Hat*

    S.O. is about to finish his first week at a new job! Even better, he’s doing something he loves instead of settling! It’s a temp-to-hire position, but who cares because the manager & crew really like him and have even made comments such as “oh you’ll definitely be hired” in response to his work ethic & ambition. Hours are good, commute is good, and the place cares about safety & efficiency. Huzzah!

    I’m still rolling out applications and cover letters, but my fingers are crossed for my latest one: my commute would be a mile and a half down the street!

    1. AFT123*

      Aww that is awesome!! I love to hear about people who are liking their new workplaces – it is a great reminder that there is green grass out there.

      Good luck on your search and keep us posted!

  122. SleepyJean*

    We have a highly emotional, fairly new mid-range employee here who produced a report for public consumption (a primary part of her job). She used footnotes for attributions, but the big boss finds them too formal for our company (we never used them before she arrived), and at his request I had our editorial team change the footnote attributions to in-text citations (which are what we always used prior to her hiring).

    The writer blew a gasket and says that she doesn’t want her name on the report. Are we obliged to remove her name from it? She’s a regular employee, not a contractor.

    1. fposte*

      I’d say it’s not about obligation but volition. What does her manager/the big boss want to do?

      Does she realize this means she will never have her name on any of the public reports, which is going to be weird when she wants to use them in her portfolio?

      1. SleepyJean*

        I’m pretty sure she’s confident that they’ll cave and allow her to just do footnotes, so she’s not thinking in terms of not having her name on the reports. But I’ve never known the company to publish reports without an author listed, so it’s an issue. This is a big annual report for us, our most popular of the year, and people would likely notice if there wasn’t an author listed.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Ah, that helps clarify. I’d say the employer can put whatever they want on it in terms of authorship, it’s their work product. They’re not obligated to take her name off, although before I read that the company wants an author, I was going to say go ahead, take her name off and just say it was written by YourCompany, Inc.

          Apparently this is the hill she’s willing to die on. Or at least get fired on.

        2. fposte*

          Are you in charge of the report but not her boss? That’s a tricky combination. I think what I’d do is drop a note to her boss: “Cruella dislikes our citation style and has requested her name be taken off the report rather than be identified with it. Since the citations are house style and writers’ names are as policy part of the report, I don’t expect to be changing citations or author credit. Should you and I discuss this, or does this approach work for you?”

    2. Manders*

      This is a really, really weird response. The only situation in which I could see the writer getting righteously upset is if there’s something about changing those citations that will harm her professional reputation by making it look like she doesn’t understand how to cite sources or is plagiarizing instead of citing correctly.

      I would take her name off the report if she’s this upset about it, but I’d also dig into *why* she’s upset. Is she being a drama llama about minor edits, or is it really crucial to cite things a certain way? And if she can’t handle edits at all, should she be working as a writer for your company?

      1. SleepyJean*

        To be honest, in checking the sources we also found that many of them were improperly credited (using the wrong author name or publication title, for instance) and some things that seemed to be original or, possibly, paraphrased turned out to be direct quotes that she wasn’t properly attributing (i.e., no quotation marks or block indentation). That’s all been changed in editing, but at the time of her outburst most of those things hadn’t been found.

        I think continuing to employ her would be disastrous, but the corrected report has to go out … and I doubt the company wants to do it with no author listed. (Whether we use footnotes or in-text citations, the attributions have been changed to remove the plagiarism.)

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Well now, if you had to change it that substantially, that kind of supports my suggestion above of just putting YourCompany as the author. Maybe it’s time for that change going forward; “that’s the way we’ve always done it” is never a good reason, and it always makes me question why, and how it can be improved.

          1. SleepyJean*

            I would be fine, personally, with having our company name as author; I’m just concerned that the company will freak out at the idea. The report is already late–it was supposed to publish weeks ago, and when the big boss saw what she’d produced, he blew his stack and ordered a re-write. At this point they’re really itching to get that baby out.

        2. fposte*

          Whoa. That’s stuff her boss *really* needs to know. Set up a meeting.

          (P.S. Are you a daydream believer?)

          1. SleepyJean*

            I am a daydream believer! The first album I ever owned was the Monkees.

            This has all dropped at a weird time … all of the upper-level people, including our boss (yes, we share a boss) and the big boss are at a big event we’re hosting, so this issue has sat without resolution all week.

            At the end of last week I sent our boss an email pointing out some issues, including an issue of plagiarism. He didn’t mention it in his reply, when plagiarism should merit an immediate response. But my boss has no experience with publications; my department is under him simply because it doesn’t fit nicely under any other division. After that response I bumped this issues up and sent my concerns to a C-level employee who used to be heavily involved in publications. She was disturbed and said she’d discuss it with the big boss at the event.

            This week, as we waited I asked one of my editors to comb over the author’s reports, and I’ve got a breakdown prepared of the major issues from her last three reports … 24 incidences of plagiarism, 12 instances of crediting the wrong author/company/publication, and other serious concerns.

            Since this issue is a lot more pervasive than I realized, I’m planning to request a meeting with my boss, the big boss, and the C-level staffer I mentioned and share our findings with them.

        3. Manders*

          Oh, yikes. It’s good that someone looked into that. I agree that this is not someone you want representing your company. Maybe whoever made those substantial edits could get the credit?

          1. SleepyJean*

            She needs a medal, but she didn’t write the bulk of the report. Just saved our bacon. ;)

        4. TootsNYC*

          If I were the boss of this report, I would either leave her name on it, or take it off and put someone else’s on.

          I work in publishing, and we have issues now and then w/ this; someone will do a lousy job, so they have to share the byline with whoever cleaned up after them. Or the in-house rewriter will get the byline and they’ll get a “with reporting by” tagline at the very end of the story or in the gutter even.

          Or their byline will be taken off completely if not enough of their original work is used.

      2. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Yeah, this is bizarre. As a writer, I completely understand “house style” as a concept, and I understand that I have to stick to it…even if it’s incorrect by other styles.

        Remove her name– I can’t tell you how many reports and items I’ve written that go out without any individual’s name. It seems odd to do that, actually.

  123. art_ticulate*

    A bit of background: I was fired two weeks ago from my job. I had been pressured to resign, I refused, and that was that. I know it had nothing to do with my job performance, which was excellent, and my direct supervisor (who was not allowed to have a say in my being fired) has assured me that she will give me a good reference.

    I’m now job-hunting and debating whether I want to continue working in this field. I was burnt out and exhausted at this job. My supervisor was so scatterbrained and unorganized that I ended up taking over a lot of her work to make sure that things got done.

    I’ve been looking at positions that are in different areas of this field, because while I enjoyed what I did at this most recent job, I’ve lost my enthusiasm for it. I have two other jobs on my resume, one where I handled the same work I was just doing, and one where I had responsibilities that, in larger organizations, is divided among 3-4 people. However, I worry that going back and forth between different kinds of jobs/responsibilities will look sort of like job-hopping, or like I’m indecisive, to potential employers, even though it’s all in the same field of work. Is that something I should feel concerned about, or am I overthinking it?

    1. misspiggy*

      I don’t think it’ll look like jobhopping. It’s understood that people move back and forth within fields sometimes, based on the opportunities that come up.

      1. art_ticulate*

        Thanks. The reason I hesitate is because, even though the work is under the same umbrella, the duties involved are vastly different. But I have experience in many different areas and I know I can do it. It’s just that, in this field, people tend to pick one area of preference and stick with it, so it’s unusual to see someone bounce around.

  124. Loose Seal*

    I’m applying for an admin job at the local university. I know resumes in academia are longer and more thorough than those in other lines of work, but is that true for support staff? Should I make this more like a CV or just use my standard two-pager tweaked to highlight admin skills?

    1. fposte*

      A two-pager is likely fine for support staff, especially if you’re at an early stage in your admin career.

  125. CareerTransition*

    I’ve started to job hunt, not because the working conditions or my boss are terrible, but because I want to move from programming saucer designs to securing saucer design and production. I’ve been wrestling with when I should mention that I might be considering leaving. My mom was saying that I should mention it to my boss sooner rather than later so that they can potentially counteroffer, but I’m not so sure about that. The main reason is because I work for Federal Saucers and not Teapots Inc. and so there isn’t as much wiggle room for them to really counteroffer anyway. So I guess the question is if and when there is an appropriate time that you might want to tell your boss you might be leaving.

    1. Analyst*

      Do NOT listen to your mom. The rule of thumb is to never give your current employer a head’s up that you are actively looking elsewhere. They will find out when you resign after accepting a new position somewhere else. This is so there is no room for retaliation by your current employer, including letting you go.

    2. Glod Glodsson*

      Are you even interested in a counteroffer if you want to move into a different direction?

    3. NJ Anon*

      You should also not accept a counter offer unless they are going to move you to the area you want to get into. You will just resent it. Don’t listen to mom. What happens if they hire your replacement and you haven’t found something else? Then you have no job.

    4. TootsNYC*

      You don’t mention that you’re thinking of leaving.

      You tell them when you have accepted a solid offer.

      I know that lots of people, Alison included, have said they like to know. I’ve never known it to be a good thing.

  126. Aella*

    I have a name problem! I am currently getting ready to change my surname by deedpoll, but it won’t happen until well into next month, as I’m still getting all my ducks in a row. When should I bring this up on application forms? My instinct is not to do it until I have the deedpoll in my hands, but might potential employers feel a little blindsided? Should I warn them if called for interview?

    1. fposte*

      If you know for sure it’s going to happen next month, can you just apply with that name now?

      I don’t think people should feel blindsided either way–people change last names all the time, after all, so the first shouldn’t be hard. What I do think you want to avoid is officially going by Aella when you start the job and then changing to Allae after a month, because that’s a transition that involves more people.

  127. Ann O'Nemity*

    One of my (inherited) direct reports has a lady moustache. It’s pretty bad with some coarse, long (1 inch) white hairs at the corners. This is not just some fuzz, but coarse and long (1 inch) hairs. Her role is increasingly public facing. Should I ask her to get rid of the moustache? And if so, how do I have that conversation? And tell me if you think my thoughts are out of line!

      1. Manders*

        Agreed. Even workplaces that do have dress code rules about facial hair don’t police things like this.

    2. Grey*

      Unless you’re going to apply the rule to both men and women, I don’t think you should have that conversation.

    3. MsChanandlerBong*

      I do think your thoughts are out of line, but I’ll let others weigh in. I will say that I think you need to be extremely careful about what you say and do. Some women develop facial hair as the result of polycystic ovary syndrome, hormonal imbalances, and other medical issues. It would be unwise to make a big deal out of something that might very well be a medical symptom.

    4. Anxa*

      How would you enforce this?

      I don’t see how you can require a woman to get rid of a mustache without requiring all workers to have no facial hair over the lip.

      Yet, almost all people do have facial hair. How would you distinguish fuzz from coarse?

      Also, keep in mind that hair can be difficult to remove. Many men can ‘get away’ with stubble coming in. Irritation is also less apparent.

      Hair and body hair on women is so politicized, I’d be very hesitant to go down that road.

    5. Ad Astra*

      I can’t think of any way this would affect your business (unless it’s, like, a hair-removal business), so it’s best not to say anything. If she were smelly, sloppy, or somehow unprofessional, it would be worth discussing. I would totally have the urge to pluck those suckers when her guard was down, but that’s my problem, not hers. I say leave it alone and save yourself an uncomfortable conversation.

  128. MarquisDeP*

    I have a question about work / FB etiquette.

    Although I never post about work, I do post sometimes about religious, political, etc issues along with photos of me drunk. Therefore, I have a FB policy in which I do not friend people who are above me in hierarchy, and I do not friend people who I work with on a day to day basis. Since my company is gigantic and I’ve been there awhile, this means I still have a ton of FB friends that work in my company, we simply don’t have job functions that intersect at all.

    Today, it was announced that one of my FB friends has become a manager. Specifically, mine! Per my policy I have chosen to unfriend this person.

    Now, the question: how would you handle this? Would you not mention the unfriending at all? (Unfriending people isn’t really obvious, from what I’ve seen; I don’t notice when people unfriend me unless I see them post elsewhere and I notice we’re no longer friends.) Would you mention it with some info about how you’re happy for this person (and I am! in fact, I was approached about this position and had NO interest in it) BUT per personal policy, you opted to unfriend?

    1. misspiggy*

      I wouldn’t mention it. No need to risk a weird reaction. They probably won’t notice. If they do and they care, they can raise it with you.

    2. theblackdog*

      I wouldn’t mention it at all unless they bring it up. If they do, that’s when you explain it’s nothing personal (which it isn’t!) but you limit the work connections to your Facebook page. It’s good for you to stick to your policy on this, and don’t forget to make sure your posts are friends only and not public.

    3. Businesslady*

      I think unfriending was a smart move in this case, and that your policy is a good one in general.

      Another option (for anyone who was worried that unfriending would get noticed or who otherwise “needs” to be facebook friends with higher-ups) is to implement graduated privacy settings. You can create different groups and then control which groups see which photos/posts–so you could have an “everyone but work folks” group who sees everything while “everyone” only gets to see more uncontroversial things. (Of course, then you’d need to be vigilant about making sure your posts were being directed to the appropriate category, which might not be practical if you’re posting constantly–but then again, you can also edit those settings after the fact if you slip up.)

      There’s also the option to customize the privacy settings on an individual post, so you can list a series of people to exclude. This is useful for other things too, like if you wanted to crowdsource something related to a gift or other surprise and didn’t want the recipient to see that particular post.

      Finally, while I doubt your ex-fbook friend will ever notice (or say anything if she does), if she does end up asking about the unfriending, you can frame it as “I didn’t want to put you in an awkward position now that you’re in your new role”–as in, you were trying to look out for her, not worrying about covering your own ass.

      1. MarquisDeP*

        I like this language. We’re young (early 30s) but it really surprises me how many of my peers have our current boss friended on facebook. I’m professional, I’m friendly, I love my current boss, but I’m also cognizant of unintended biases in the workplace.

    4. Nicole*

      I think whether this person would notice they’ve been unfriended depends on how active they are on FB and whether they interact with you. It could get weird if you unfriend them and it hurts their feelings, so my recommendation is to add them to the Restricted friend list. That way the ONLY posts they see are public ones or one you’ve chosen to tag them in. It’s worked really well for me in regards to certain people I regret friending. :)

    5. asteramella*

      Keep in mind that you can keep this person on your friends list but set their access to your page as “Restricted.” Google it–it’s useful!

  129. Am I too old?!?*

    I’m in the midst of researching careers for a total change (for reasons I won’t go into here) and I’ve seriously been considering becoming an accountant. I would only have to go back for another two years if I wanted a business degree (I already have a BA). However… I’m currently 27 and PROBABLY won’t go back to school until I’m 29 or 30. So, I would be graduating at the age of 32.

    HOWEVER, from what I’ve read online, apparently that’s too old to become an accountant? I know that public firms prefer younger workers and they have no work-life balance for the first few years, and typically leave after that. Do I *have* to get public accountancy experience to become an accountant? Can I go straight into industry or government (if the option presents itself)? Is it too late to become an accountant?!

    1. Accountant*

      Definitely not too late. I started in public accounting when I was 28?. I had a lot of co-workers on my level who were even older. I worked for a large regional firm, not one of the big 4. You definitely do not need to do public accounting first. It was challenging to do public accounting. I loved a lot of things about it though. I learned a lot really fast and was surrounded by very bright people. It may be helpful for you to email one of the accounting professors at your local university to talk you through the career paths and educational requirements. I’m a CPA who was a history major. I just took enough business and accounting classes as a non-degree seeking student to take the CPA exam. Take as many as you can at community college. Cheaper and easier. I took almost all my classes online while working full time. It’s definitely doable.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      There’s being an accountant and then there’s being a public accountant. For public accounting they like them young and mold-able, at least that’s what the big CPA firms want. I totally missed that boat. When I got my undergrad degree there was a flood of public accountants on the market. I went straight to industry. Which is a great way to go. You don’t have to give up your life to have a good job. Just know as you climb the ladder the work/life balance leans more towards work.
      I worked in real estate/affordable housing for a year, went to a local fuel distributorship with retail operations after that for a couple more years before going into government. It was only after 5 years in government that I went back to get a masters and get credentialed.
      So no, you’re not too old. In your case I’d actually look into just jumping straight into a Master’s program. You’ll likely have to take a few undergrad accounting classes to get up to speed, but I doubt it will take you that much longer to do than getting a second bachelors. then you’d also be qualified to sit for any of the certification exams if you want to take it that far.

      1. NJ Anon*

        This! I am not a CPA but got my masters in Accounting a few years ago and I am old enough to be your mother! I work as a director of finance at a nonprofit. (My undergrad was Marketing oh so many years ago!)

      2. Am I too old?!?*

        I’m in Canada and it doesn’t look like there are any Masters of Accounting programs that are open people without a previous business degree. My alma mater offers a BComm. after degree, so I would have to take the basic math, stats, econ, etc. classes and then (I believe) I could go into the program for 2 years and specialize in accounting.

    3. Analyst*

      You don’t have to go public! Spouse and I went back to school to get enough credits to sit the test and passed last year, and now he’s working in the same industry we both have been in for 14 years now, at a private firm, and will be licensed in a year. I’m waiting to make the jump from my current company because we have other things on our plate right now. We’re old – I’m 34 and he’s 40.

    4. Finman*

      Depending on your personality, finance may be a better path for you. I have many friends who have accounting/finance undergrads as the topics/theories of both are needed in both paths (IMO). The people who enjoy accounting typically are good at attention to detail, like rules/order, and are ok with repetitive tasks (SOX testing was the bane of my existence for a year). Finance folks in general like big picture, are a little more creative, and like/excel at ad-hoc changing environments. I understand accounting concepts (thanks to extra classes in undergrad) and have done accounting jobs, but I excel more when I have a certain number of monthly reports and many more ad-hoc projects/assignments.

      1. Am I too old?!?*

        Those are actually the reasons why I’m sort of drawn to accounting! It’s taken me a few years to realize that I love having work with specific rules, procedures, to follow, I have strong attention to detail, etc. I don’t particularly mind doing repetitive work. My current job only has a little bit of it, but the rest of it is really… active? I’m not sure how to describe it, but anyway. Accounting, I think, would fit me more than finance, but who knows!

      2. Master Bean Counter*

        Uh, you just described my accounting job…
        But really accounting and finance are very close fields.

    5. Alpha*

      I can’t give you advice on becoming an accountant, but my dad started retraining to become and accountant in his late 30’s, so no, you’re not too old!

  130. AnonAnon*

    I’ve really messed up.

    Roughly 7 months ago, I took on a freelance job to build a database for a local nonprofit. I had only one database class under my belt, but it seemed manageable. Needless to say, I was wrong. I’ve been working almost nonstop for three of those months, fiddling with Excel sheets, beating my head against a wall (did I mention I agreed to build this in Access?), watching tutorials, tearing my hair out, and I’m admitting defeat. What I have isn’t good enough to return to my client, and it will never be good enough. I don’t have the skills. Today is the day I gave a soft commitment to having it done. I can’t turn this work in in good conscience. I was sending optimistic emails as recently as a week ago, but I’ve hit a rock solid wall in that time.

    Is there any good way, or the least bad way, to back out of a client agreement like this? (We never signed a formal contract.) I really appreciate that they took a chance on me, and I don’t want to leave them high and dry or feeling jerked around. My plan at this point is to offer them all the database work I’ve done so far, and turn down any payment (which stings, because I really need it.) I just need out of this agreement. Any advice on how to best approach this? Any potential clients know how they would want to be approached in a situation like this?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      This is, of course, terrible. I can imagine how upset and stressed out and frozen you feel and how disappointed and set back this will make the customer.

      I can say one “good” thing: this happens so much, I can’t even say. I’ve been on the other end of it and, it was truly terrible, has thrown me and operations into chaos more than once, but, it is a thing that happens that you will, please, never do again.

      Don’t delay sucking it up one more day. Flat out confess, give them your work product, and if you don’t think it is usable, don’t charge them. Not charging them is the one thing you can do to make yourself feel better, years from now, when you look back at this.

      The people on the other end will learn to establish regular check points of seeing actual work product so they can make sure that it is truly progressing, and not to go by optimistic emails. They SHOULD have been able to trust your word but, ime, that’s not worth much in the world of programming and development projects.

    2. the_scientist*

      I think waiving payment and apologizing profusely is a good first step. They are going to be super annoyed with you and you can’t expect to have a positive relationship with this client moving forward, but it’s still better to let them know now. Delaying further is going to be worse, because they need a functional product.

    3. AVP*

      What Wakeen’s Teapots and The Scientist said! This is bad, but, it happened and it’s too late to undo, so now your goal is to handle the reveal and the fallout as best you can.

      Don’t obfuscate or make excuses or try to move the blame around…just be forward and transparent and let them know you don’t feel good about it, take it as a lesson learned, and move on.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Agree. I had to do this with someone I’d agreed to cut music for. It was humiliating, but there just was no other way to do it except suck up my pride and do it. I didn’t charge them.

    4. AnonAnon*

      Thanks for the responses, everyone. I went ahead and sent the email, attaching the database and assuring them I didn’t want payment.

      This whole situation has really sucked (on both ends, I’m sure!), but at least Wakeen’s Teapots, Ltd. is right: I’ll make darn sure I never do this again.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        This is a thing that happens. It’s an actual Thing.

        So feel bad for a bit that you didn’t get on top of telling them earlier, but it’s a Thing. Now have a Friday night cocktail of choice and boot up some Netflix. The worst is over.

  131. Ruth R*

    To relate a funny thing that happened today… my office recently moved and is now very near a climbing wall. I used to climb regularly but haven’t done so for a few years – but I took it up again about a month ago once or twice a week.

    Therefore I’ve been bringing climbing gear to work and stashing it under my desk in a bag (I ride a bike so no option to leave it in the car). Rope, harness, belay devices etc. As I often go in my bag, and root around in there people have seen the kit. I assumed everyone knew what it was as I’ve talked about climbing… apparently not.

    Today I mentioned my climbing harness and the director said, “oh, is that what it is?” with a tone of realisation.

    It turns out she thought it was ‘bondage gear’ and that I was ‘just really open about it’. Apparently both she and my manager have thought this for the past few weeks but this is the first time I’ve heard about it!

    My colleagues and I are all pretty entertained by the misinterpretation of my climbing harness…

    3. Amber Rose*

      Oh gosh, lol. At least they’re accepting?

      I have a comparable story. I take a sword fighting class. One day while arranging to return a rental and get my car back from the repair shop over lunch, I realized my sword case was still in the rental trunk. My sword case is a rifle case because actual sword cases do not exist.

      I tried to sneak it in and hide it under my desk but ran into a senior manager at the exact wrong time, who immediately raised his hands and said “Don’t shoot!”

      He was joking but oh, it was so awkward. There’s no situation in which saying “it’s not a gun, it’s a sword” makes things better.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        When I was home from college one summer, I got pulled into Cutco sales. I didn’t have a car, so I took public transit and walked to my appointments. Unfortunately, I had a wee heatstroke while on my way to a sales call, carrying my kit. The medics who were attending to me assured me that they’d collected the stuff I’d dropped, and casually asked, “So what’s in the bag?”

        “Knives…”

        *beat* “Oh, Cutco? My cousin worked for them.”

    4. CM*

      That is hilarious — and it speaks well of your colleagues that they didn’t make a big deal out of your extracurricular activities (even though I bet there was a lot of giggling behind your back)!

  132. so anon for this*

    Late to the thread but any tips for handling a bully at work?

    For context, I’m the one getting bullied, the bully is a peer and this isn’t new behavior. The bully has a reputation but also has (no joke, just take my word for it) essential knowledge no one else in the company has. So it’s a position of power and a single point of failure.

    I’ve gone the EAP route, HR knows (and wants me to file a complaint–no thanks. Whistle blowers rarely survive blowing the whistle), manager knows. I’m a retention risk for sure, and find myself hoping for a reorg or a round of layoffs.

    Any tips for keeping sane? I do work out 6x a week, I don’t drink, sleep is a problem as you might imagine and honestly I think I’m losing my mind.

    1. fposte*

      Does no one else in the world have this knowledge? Because I don’t see why they’re stuck with the bully otherwise.

      You mention a reorg or layoffs–you’re looking for a new job as well, right? Because I don’t think this one is going to change, and it sounds like it’s taking a toll on you that you can’t afford to sustain.

      1. so anon for this*

        Truly, the bully is the only one and the knowledge is essential. I am not overstating this.

        I’m looking, it’s slim pickings though.

        1. fposte*

          I believe the bully is the only one in the company. I’m not convinced s/he’s the only one in the world.

          In the meantime, whatever you can do to diminish exposure–headphones if it happens privately, stay in groups if it happens publicly. Consolidate allies as you can. (That might be tough if you’re the sacrificial lamb that means they’re spared, but there might be people who would like to take some action if they knew what would be useful to you.)

    2. misspiggy*

      It sounds like HR and your management have plenty of information to take action, and they haven’t. That tells you to be looking elsewhere, and to give a hell of an exit interview if you feel like it (I work in a setting where references are not likely to be compromised by exit interviews, YMMV).

      If you’re doing everything you can to get out of there, you might start to feel better. It’s unjust that you’re the one who has to leave, but less time spent with unjust people who are unlikely to change is good.

      You could also tell yourself that even if you don’t get a job by x date, you will leave and go freelance, for example. Looking into realistic options for getting work if you just upped and left might also help. Either you’ll realise you can leave whenever you want, or you’ll realise what you need to do to get into a better long-term gig.

    3. TootsNYC*

      “consolidate allies,” fposte said–I can’t emphasize this enough. Bullies aim for people who have no allies. Develop them.

      It is not a joke that there are so many stories of people who were bullied until they finally punched the bully in the nose, and then he backed down. Telling the teacher didn’t help; the bully getting detention didn’t help. Punching them in the nose did.

      Bullies go for people with whom they can get away with it. If you have allies who will say, “hey, not cool!” right in the moment, the bully will see you as strong because of your allies.
      Or if you can go for the workplace “punch him in the nose” tactic: basically, speak up immediately and say, “That was completely uncalled for, knock if off.” but you have to have allies who will be on your side when you do.

      And push back. This person is a peer, and HR knows and your manager knows. So go on a polite but firm firm firm counter attack. A verbal one. Talk w/ your manager and HR about what verbal counterattack you can do in the moment, and get them to back you up.

  133. New Bee*

    Anyone have ideas for how to politely push back on being asked to do work that breaches a contract/salary agreement? I work for an education consulting firm, and my team is currently designing a new initiative with the expectation that we get bonus pay for the design phase over the next few months, and then will transition to working on the initiative full-time after that. We all signed contracts stating that we agreed to receive our regular pay for working on the initiative full time (because it’s higher than the contract rate) and acknowledging that we are expected to only work on the initiative. However, the end of the initiative and transition back to our regular positions coincides with the start of the academic year, I mentioned to the team lead that our workstreams from now until the initiative begins don’t include any planning for work with clients, who’ll be expecting us to hit the ground running (the first 6 weeks are crucial for teacher development, especially classroom management and culture). How can I get ahead of this and tactfully point out the terms of the contract so I’m not expected to work my regular job for free when I join the initiative full-time?

  134. anon for this*

    I work in hospital based mental healthcare, and this has been a really tough week for my department. There was a high-profile (at least in the area) crime committed by one of our former long-term patients, and despite being all “hardened” from multiple years in this field, I wasn’t prepared for how difficult it would be. They have provided EAP, but it’s definitely going to take a while to come to terms with all of this, not to mention that I’m sure those wounds will be reopened every time there’s another news story throughout what will likely be a drawn-out process. It sucks. The emotions (and guilt, even though I know it’s not our fault) is indescribable. Definitely not what I ever expected to be dealing with in the workplace.

  135. Marillenbaum*

    Today is my first day back in the office after spending two days out sick (strep throat, first time ever). I’m okay to be here, but I still feel run down and tired and am having a hard time focusing (though thankfully, there isn’t much that needs doing right now). What are everyone’s coping strategies for when they need to be at work, but aren’t feeling well?

    1. AFT123*

      This is a tough one – I am in early pregnancy right now and feel like sh*t a lot, but can’t really show it yet. If you have the option, try and find somewhere you can close your eyes for a bit! We have 3 “wellness rooms” that I think are designed for people who are breastfeeding, but 1 of them is reservation and two of them are first come first serve, and rarely are in use. I head up to the wellness room and turn the lights off, close my eyes, and just chill for 20 minutes. It really helps me feel better.

      If that isn’t an option, I usually rely on caffeine and Dayquil (when not preggo). Would they maybe let you work from home? At least you can be physically comfortable and nap on your lunch break in that case.

      1. AFT123*

        My sister doesn’t have any room where she can go, so she goes out to her car and lays down when she doesn’t feel well.

    2. T3k*

      If you can, go at a slower pace than you usually would on projects. When I get back to work after an unexpected absence and see an inbox full of stuff to do, I sort them, picking out the ones that need to be done that day, then the ones that can easily be knocked out, and then, if I have time to do them in the same day, the ones that remain. Of course, this only works if you’re not expecting much work for the next few days.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This was my week. I have a pretty bad infection of some sort, and to make matters worse, my direct report was out all week for a funeral. My brain is mush. We have unlimited sick days, which sounds great, but really it’s only designed to keep you at home– and working– so you don’t infect other people.

      My boss worked with me to clear my calendar as much as he could, and I took “off” almost every afternoon this week. I did work in spurts. I also went to bed ridiculously early every night. I feel… mostly better, but I could have used a good three days of nothing.

  136. New Boss Issues*

    I have a new boss and I’m struggling with it. I don’t know what’s normal new boss transition pains and what might actually be something worth addressing. These are some of the things going on.
    1. Changing things quickly/without understanding the context. For example, several years back we noticed a communication gap between departments and instituted a monthly meeting that helped significantly. New Boss attended the meeting once and then the next month changed the format of the meeting so dramatically that it no longer serves the original purpose and we’re having the same type of communication issues as before.
    2. Strange word choices/grammar/editing. New Boss asked to see an email before I sent it (which was strange in itself). Some of the “edits” weren’t correct grammar so I didn’t make them before sending it. On another occasion New Boss was oddly insistent that “sidewalk” and “footpath” meant the same thing and didn’t believe us that they have different connotations.
    3. Social Experiments. Imagine things like leaving food in the area we typically use for shared items and then waiting to see how long it takes someone to try it or leaving trash and seeing how long it takes someone to throw it away. We only found out it was a “social experiment” because he told his assistant that we “failed” one of them.

    Is all of this normal? Should I address any of it? How would I even go about that?

    1. AFT123*

      This sounds kind of terrible… especially considering that this boss hasn’t even been there very long (presumably). It kind of sounds like this behavior will only get worse as time goes on and boss becomes more comfortable. Honestly though I don’t really know if there is anything you can say or do…? Seems like behavior correction would have to come from above the boss.

      1. New Boss Issues*

        New Boss hasn’t been here long at all, not quite two months. He’s high level (Assistant Vice President) and doesn’t interact with his boss much so I’m not sure if she’ll see the issues or correct them. I didn’t word this well but I’m more looking for ways to cope/nudge/manage up than actually addressing these things like I would for my staff.

  137. Senior*

    I feel guilty that I’m paid more than my teammates in similar roles. I am a Senior Teapot Engineer as opposed to their Junior and no-modifier (so, I guess Intermediate) Teapot Engineer titles. But as far as I can tell we all produce more or less the same amount and quality of output. Am I silly for feeling guilty? I could recommend my teammates for raises, but it’s not like I can ask for our employer to reduce my salary and give the money to them.

    1. Amber Rose*

      You’re a little silly. :)
      If your coworkers feel they should be paid more, it’s up to them to ask for more. Otherwise trust that your company is paying according to what they are receiving, which has a lot more metrics involved than output, or that your coworkers are content with their pay.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      I’d be worried about being the first for layoff. If your work product is the same quality and number as your lesser paid coworkers, you are a target!
      If you are able to produce a product with less rework, or more quickly, or greater scope then your salary is justified.

  138. Anonsie*

    Oh I have a good one.

    Friend of mine’s company got bought a year ago and the new owner parent company promised no layoffs for at least two years. While he was on vacation this week, they surprise laid off two of his direct reports without notifying him or anyone else in his management chain (who are part of the bought out company, not the parent) for several levels up. First thing in the morning they went to these folks and told them all their access was cut and they were to vacate the building within 15 minutes. Didn’t bother to talk to anyone in their division about it, just went ahead and did it based on seniority.

    1. Megs*

      Oof, that sucks. A similar thing happened to my dad, only the “no layoffs” thing was part of the sales agreement so my dad lawyered up and got a nice settlement out of the deal.

  139. LiteralGirl*

    Why are job application submissions so anxiety-inducing? I’ve just applied for another position within my company, that I am qualified for (due to transferable skills), but the cover letter was a bear and now that I’ve hit submit, I’m a nervous wreck.
    I had asked for my current position to be upgraded to reflect what I’m actually doing (SAS & SQL) rather than spending most of my time in Excel, and my boss’s boss denied the request because he doesn’t want to have to justify it to his boss. He wants the skills and the work, but doesn’t want to pay for it. So, in order to progress, I have to move outside the department. Sigh.

  140. Firstbaby*

    Any working moms out there who spent time out of the work force when their children where born? I’m currently pregnant and leaving my job to be a stay at home mom and freaking out a little bit. My husband makes more than enough so that my working doesn’t make sense, but I’ve always had a job and have never had an employment gap in the 10 years I’ve been in the workforce. I’d like to go back to work once our child starts school, so I guess I’m wondering if getting back to work then will be as hard as everyone keeps telling me?

    1. Clever Name*

      I didn’t have too much of a problem, but I was only out for 2 years and moved states in that time, so I think the gap was less noticeable. I did bring it up in cover letters about being excited to return to the workforce. I have a science degree, and I work in consulting, so I think that helps.

  141. Anoner Mouse this time*

    How can you change your name when moving jobs?

    I’ve been gradually ditching my legal name in social settings for several years to a different first name and a modified (simpler) version of my last name. I don’t like my legal name and finally decided to jettison it and have been gradually sort of phasing it out of use in my personal life since college. It’s kind of slow going though, I still have a mix of people using both.

    The thing is, my work history is all under my legal name. Can I put my preferred name on my materials and, when references are requested, let them know “oh by the way when I worked with this person I went by my legal name Josephine Waytoomanyletters but I’ve since changed my name to Jen Fewerletters.” I feel like this will look kind of weird and suspicious, since who changes their first AND last name as an adult?

    The last name change alone isn’t too strange, like if I was Gomez Smith de Juarez and now I’m Gomez. The first name change alone isn’t super strange either (though it’s a similar by different name rather than a variant of the same name). But both in combination seems a little strange looking, don’t you think? Is there a way to explain that without seeming shifty?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I didn’t do a legal name change, but I did a professional one (or tried it—switched back later). I just applied under my old name. Then, when I got the job, I asked if I could use my new name professionally but still do all the paperwork (paycheck, insurance, etc.) under my legal name. They were cool with it. I was on the website as New Name, my email address was nname@organization.org.

    2. Megs*

      My mom changed her first and last name as an adult (thought she also changed states and I doubt her current job checked references). I think you explain it just as you did above. If you can avoid making it seem shifty, hopefully others will take your lead.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I think the last name thing makes sense, and you can just say and-by-the-way since I was changing my last name, I am making my first name legally the name I have gone by since childhood (college, childhood, so what, the longer it has been, the better.) I would give kudos to you for doing it, because it’s a lot easier for new people who meet you if your legal and preferred names match (next job, maybe!)

      The only time I think the first name change is a little weird is when it’s kind of a woo-woo thing where someone had a religious awakening or whatever. Not that that’s wrong, either, just more unusual and would raise a few eyebrows.

    4. periwinkle*

      The middle name on my birth certificate is the only one on my current legal documents; I changed my last name upon marriage and changed the first name later to the preferred name I had been using since age 12 or so. My work history covers all three names. Not a big deal. I did what you are thinking of doing – when we got to the point of reference checking I let HR know that my name has been changed so Company X has me as in their records as Lilac Purple even though my manager there would remember me as Periwinkle Blue.

  142. Glasskey*

    I am getting ready to do annual evaluations for my two employees but dreading it, and not because I am afraid to bring up some areas for improvement (especially with one of them, who is sort of “fibrillating” along the margins of what is expected for the position). It’s more because due to some really bad management practices and poor communication on the part of our department leads, everyone’s morale is really, really low. (Mine included; after 4 years of this I am planning my escape.) It already feels like my employees are about to jump ship and I know that questions will come up about some of the recent decisions in the department that I can’t speak to (let alone understand myself). For those of you at there that manage people, how do you deliver constuctive criticism in a tumultous environment and when you can’t promise that things will get better?

    1. De Courcy*

      Not a manager, but in that situation I would try to emphasize the positive. Things are already hard and I’m afraid performance is not likely to be boosted by criticism.

    2. AnotherFed*

      The areas for improvement shouldn’t be a surprise (and if they are, you probably want to address them in 1:1s outside of the annual review), so focus on overall things, with more of a positive spin, especially where you’ve seen them trying to work on improvements. Try to tie those areas they’re working on to career growth and make sure they understand how it’ll help them get better results or go further. After all, if it won’t help them and the place is a sinking ship, why do it?

      1. Glasskey*

        That’s great perspective, thank you–these are decent, hard-working people and it’ll make me feel better if I can approach thesee conversations with a little subversion in mind since this place has gotten so nuts.

  143. De Courcy*

    Is this actually a workplace sin?: I have wrist pain and at my new job am getting more accommodation for it than others have in past. A co-worker, Cirsei, mentioned to me she also had wrist pain and needed more equipment than she has. One of the pieces of equipment ordered for me didn’t meet my needs and I told the HR person (startup life, no facilities person so it’s the HR person doing the ordering) “maybe Cirsei would be interested in this.” Cirsei blew a gasket at me and bit my head off for mentioning anything about her to HR. I’ve apologized profusely, but I’m left a little startled. Wouldn’t HR be the first people to discuss discomfort and ergonomic needs with? How bad was my error?

    1. fposte*

      Technically, they’re the first people for you to discuss *your* ergonomic needs with; the first person for you to discuss Cirsei’s needs with is Cirsei.

      That being said, I think she’s overreacting; most people wouldn’t really care. But the way to be safe in future is to say “Hey, Cirsei, that keyboard didn’t work out for me; let HR know if you want to try it.”

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Cirsei is a martyr. She isn’t getting the equipment she needs because she’s complaining to you rather than the proper people. You did something that, to me, seems perfectly normal. You have new information now. Cirsei is not willing to address her own concerns with HR, so from here forward you shouldn’t either. Also if
      Cirsei brings up the equipment thing in the future you now have a perfect out of the conversation. “I’m sorry Cirsei, I took my concerns up with HR and now my problem is solved.”

    3. MaggiePi*

      I agree with fposte. It was probably a faux pas, but it also sounds like Cirsei is overreacting.
      I don’t think apologies should almost ever need to be profuse. You didn’t kill her cat and do it on purpose. If you’ve apologized, completely and sincerely, and Cirsei won’t accept it, then its her issue now.

  144. Maple Tree*

    UPDATE ON MY QUESTION FROM LAST WEEK: I talked with my other female co-workers and they had MORE examples of ways that my male boss was (intentionally or not) favoring male employees over female employees. So, after he returned from an event this afternoon, we had a meeting with him. I initiated it and led it, but my co-workers each said quite a lot during it and they really helped with shaping the conversation and holding my boss accountable. I was trembling with anxiety but I got through it. I used some of the language that commenters had suggested — about emphasizing that I was sure it wasn’t intentional and he surely didn’t want to give the impression of favoritism/sexism. He said he had not realized how he was excluding female employees in favor of our male co-worker, he apologized in response to the examples we gave him, and he committed to disrupting that pattern going forward. Afterward, both of my co-workers told me what a good job I did in the meeting. It felt awesome. Thanks, everybody (and Alison!) for the help last week. It made me and my co-workers see more clearly how this environment was discouraging us. Everyone’s feedback sincerely helped me to take action and to not feel crazy. I feel much better, and having my co-workers present made me feel confident that my words were not going to be misinterpreted or misrepresented later.

  145. Fawnling*

    My boss just called me to his office to ask if I would participate in interviews for a position he is opening up. This is my first time being on the other side of the table, which is exciting to have this opportunity.

    What are some good questions to ask the candidate? I work in IT but I’d like to ask more than just technical questions.

    1. AnotherFed*

      I like to ask them to tell me about a time when they screwed up and what they did. Everyone messes up at some point, so I want to see evidence that they admitted it, worked to fix it, and made improvements to avoid that mistake again in the future. You learn a lot by what they admit to (and how they phrase it – beware of passive sentences like ‘this became broken’ instead of ‘I broke this’), and you can clearly tell who put some thought and effort into figuring out what went wrong and how not to do that again.

    2. TootsNYC*

      Identify a challenging sort of thing that happens in this job. Give a short description, and ask how they’d handle it, or if they’ve had any parallel or similar experience, and how did it play out?

  146. Not a teamplayer?*

    We have monthly birthday celebrations, and holiday parties/potlucks etc. There’s no pressure to participate but it’s a small office of around 30 ppl and everyone pretty much participates and contributes. Whoever doesn’t, is either out on vacation or just not in the office…not a big deal.

    We have one person who never signs the cards, never contributes to the gift (company pays for the gift–again, none of this is wrong or weird if you do NOT want to participate)…..but this is where I’m annoyed and everyone’s noticed and is annoyed by it: they’re the FIRST one in line to go for the cake, food, and seconds. There have been 9 incidences of this.

    What would you do? The person in charge of the birthdays and stuff is in an admin/support role, idk if it’s fair for him to have to bring it up to managers but idk. I just find this behavior incredibly weird.

    1. fposte*

      Why does everyone know who has contributed? That sounds like an arrangement that needs to change. And if most people don’t know who contributed, they’re just annoyed with this person for being first, and a contribution won’t change the annoyance.

      The person sounds like a pain, but unless you’re prepared to shut the person out of the party room until they drop $5 on you, I’d let it go.

      1. Not a teamplayer?*

        The manila envelope that goes around has a column that says “who gave/who will give” and people put their names there (as sometimes, they may not ahve $1 in change at the time so intend to contribute later). Everyone notices that this person never even writes “Happy birthday”….when we all get together they’re sitting at their desk. Even my boss has said “anyone who’s not on the phone come over here” but they stay in their seats. A 1 off thing no one may notice or care, but this is a frequent occurrence.

        I honestly don’t know why it bothers me so much either tbh, but I just think its super weird.

        1. fposte*

          It’s annoying because the person is taking advantage of a nice convention.

          But I don’t see why the names need to be in the manila envelope. Can’t you just pass it around to people and have them put money in?

          1. Fawnling*

            I agree with this. My work claims that donations are optional but they keep a list of who has donated and how much, and cross people off the list. It really takes away from the spirit of the donation and makes it feel like an obligation.

        2. TootsNYC*

          I never passed the envelope around!
          That’s just way too much temptation, and it’s too likely to get lost.
          i always sent an email that said, “I’m collecting, pls tell me by email if you want to contribute.”
          People came to me if they wanted to. (Sometimes people would say, “bug me, pls”; if they said, “I want to donate” but didn’t show up, I’d email to say, “did you still want to?”)

          And when they came, I wrote their name on the envelope and how much money. I never showed it to them; I just let them see I was writing it. And I didn’t give the envelope to the recipient; it was only in case someone challenged me about the money, then I had some sort of documentation.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Have some one explain to him that the non-optional social convention for this kind of thing is to be all in or all out. It just looks bad if he’s not participating in the card or gift and not bringing food, but is first in line for the food.

      1. Not a teamplayer?*

        we contribute to the gift, they pay for the cake.

        Keep in mind, when it’s a time when they order meals for everyone (that’s also a frequent occurrence), that’s fine to be first bc no one is contributing towards that–it’s from the company.

        1. YaH*

          So if the company is paying for the food, cake, etc., I really don’t see how whether the coworker contributing financially or otherwise is relevant. It’s not like the person is trying to get a piece of the gift.

  147. BRR*

    Any tips for dealing with someone who sends out way too many emails? I work in fundraising and I have a coworker who sends out tons of emails (mostly articles) about fundraising, the cause we fundraiser for, and emails letting us know her schedule because we have a flexible employer (example, I’m leaving 30 min early to take the dog to the vet. She has one direct report and in general is not urgently needed for any matter ever). Outlook has started classifying her emails as clutter it happens so often. In my dream world I would tell her a) we know how to do our job so don’t email us how to article b) let the programs people update us about our cause c) you’re not as important as you think you are, we can handle you running an errand and being gone.

    I’m testy today.

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I have a coworker who sends out tons of emails. I asked her to stop – I just told her “Hey, I don’t need to know about this stuff, but please continue to keep me in the loop about X,Y,Z.” I sometimes still get emails I don’t care about, but they’ve been cut way down.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      For the serial forwarder in my office I created a rule in outlook where any emails from the person with “FW:” in the subject line move to its own folder automatically. Having a conversation with him would not have been worth it! If you can identify a common denominator you might be able to filter your person’s emails similarly.

    3. AnotherFed*

      If she’s not that important, just set up a rule to filter all her email to a special folder. Then go through it daily/weekly or whatever makes sense. It’s still irritating, but it’s only irritating once instead of causing rage spikes every time a new email pops in.

  148. Anxa*

    Multiple resumes for a job fair:

    I’m trying to keep my resume to one page. I have no real ‘professional’ experience (although I’ve been working for over 20 years in some capacity). I’m 30 and haven’t had a full-time, permanent job. Hence the one page.

    I’m planning to attend a job fair at work this month (I work for a college). In order to fit my resume to one page, I’d have to tailor it pretty well (leaving off certain degrees, skipping a skill section, or avoiding any explanation/description for the bulk of my work history).

    The problem is, I’m looking for entry level positions, and could go down several paths. I would apply to jobs with different resumes (for example, I would leave off my health department internship off from some technician jobs, but leave it on for quality control jobs).

    I don’t think I have the experience to warrant a two page resume, but I’m not sure how to craft a one page resume that could cover what little experience I do have for all the relevant positions?

    Which would you find most offputting:
    -Being presented with multiple resumes for different job categories
    -Being presented with a two-page resume from someone looking for entry level work without a strong work history for some of your more common jobs
    -Being presented with a resume that is all headlines and no details?
    -Having a candidate leave out significant parts of their work backgrounds, so that you wouldn’t know to consider them for X or Y position

    I know I’m most likely to get directed to applying online. Which leads me another question. Do you think it’s best to apply before the fair to show you’re really interested and proactive, or wait for more application tips or insight at the fair.

    And IF I applying with one or two resumes online, and you received a more general one at a fair, would that be annoying?

    1. Penny*

      I go to at least a few College career fairs each semester, so my advice stems from what I see there, but it’s probably similar. First, I would rather have a 2 page resume than multiple ones for one candidate. But I also think it’s possible you can pare it down more than you think. Are there some general categories your work falls into? You might be better off sorting it that way and then just putting the company names & dates below each category. Or is there one field you’ve been more involved in or that you’re particularly talented in or want to build your career in?

      I think it would be a great idea to go look online at the jobs of certain companies you’re interested in so when you meet with employers you can say, I saw that you have X position available and I’m interested in this role because of Y and one or two questions about the role or the company based on what you looked at. This will tell me you put effort into learning about the company and want to know more about a role. Then you can go right after the fair and apply with a note/cover letter saying that you met with a rep at the fair and were able to talk about the job and more realistically give examples of why you’d be a good fit for the role based on what you learned. Sometimes it can really help you learn what a job truly entails (and sometimes that maybe it’s not what you thought it was or would want to do) when you can talk to someone at a fair.

      Also, I’m a little concerned that you’re too all over the place with what you’re applying for. I don’t recommend applying to multiple jobs at one company that are just completely different. If they’re in the same field or have something in common like they’re both customer service roles or something, that’s one thing. But if you come to me and say you’re interested in a patient-centered health role or an IT role, that’s going to throw me off because those are very different skill and personality sets (those are a just for example based on what you mentioned) (also, if you’re applying for such different roles at different companies, that’s not so bad because they won’t know that). Don’t go to companies at a career fair and just say you’re interested in anything. When people do this to me at career fairs, they usually go into the don’t contact pile because not only do I have no idea what to do with them, but they can’t tell me about any specific focus or interest they have. You have to do the work in figuring out what you like and what matches your talents and so you have a more narrow idea of what you want, whether it’s that you want to work closely with people all day, that you’re tech savvy and want to problem solve, that you enjoy dealing with numbers and working independently for long periods. At least that helps give me an idea rather than just ‘I’m open to anything’ even if you are. You can say, I’m interested in this role because of XYZ, but I’m open to other opportunities if you think my interest/experience would be a better match with another role. And if they offer up suggestions, ask about that role.

      1. Anxa*

        Thank you for your input. I was so focused on wondering how it would reflect on my enthusiasm to wait to apply that I hadn’t thought about the possibility of referencing a conversation.

        I’m definitely not looking to apply to anything (although I really would do anything for a steady paycheck, I know that society encourages the poor to be desperate, but potential employers do not!). Yet, I’m having a hard time choosing what job I have the best chance for getting when several seem like a good fit.

        Basically, I studied to be a health inspector, there was a hiring freeze in my state, and by the time it thawed, I had already moved…so I had no license anymore and time was passing by. I can’t afford to go through that again, but I was hoping to find a way to integrate some of the experience and skill in regulation enforcement/education/compliance (I have some other experience from student jobs in that area) into maintaining safe practices at a pharmaceutical company. So I do think public health is relevant there. But…it’s been several years. Last year’s internship in research is more current, but not a perfect match (there wasn’t an internship in pharma the semester of my internship).

        I have put a lot of thought into the roles I want to pursue. I’m working strongly on tempering the need to do ANYTHING with trying to be choosy enough to start a career, but I do have rent, etc. That said, I can’t change the past. I know I’m not an ideal candidate, and that my meandering work history is at least in part due to a failure to thrive and get a real toe-hold on a career. Sometimes I think there could be a little value in my varied experiences, but mostly that’s because the alternative (that my 20s were complete waste) is just too tough to bear. Still, while I’m putting a lot of research into the possible roles, the company, and the industry, I can’t decide that there’s only one possible job there that I would be a good fit for. I wish there were real career counselors that could help with this sort of thing.

        I’m thinking of putting my BS and degree in applied science (local to the company, more directly related than BS) and leaving off my PH certificate, but maybe leaving off my latest internship in favor of the health department one.

        That said, I have some specialized technical skills in molecular biology, developed alongside people with wildly different work histories, interests, ambitions, and personalities. While personality does matter for job success, I think people are pigeonholed too easily. I think a lot of technicians can be excellent in customer service, patient care, education, communication, writing, and advocacy.

    2. Anne*

      I’m a little confused…you’re my age, but have been working “in some capacity” for over 20 years? I don’t really have any general advice without knowing specifics, but I would guess that you might be trying to put too much on your resume and you can consolidate down quite a bit.

      1. Anne*

        Forgot to add, I would probably ignore any work experience prior to the age of 18 or so, unless it’s highly relevant in which case I’d keep it at 1-2 lines, tops. My resume doesn’t have any of my high school jobs or experience anymore, and I’d probably take off my part-time college jobs (bank teller, waitress/bartender) if I were to update it now. But I’ve also been working full-time since I graduated college in 2008, so my experience is different than yours.

      2. Anxa*

        My family had a business. Graduating into unemployment was especially difficult for me, because while I was lucky enough to never had to work more than part-time and was able to have very few responsibilities as a kid, I had worked in some capacity for as long as I could remember. I hate not feeling productive, I love helping people get what they’re looking for, and alphabetizing/cleaning/etc. can be zen-like activities for me. Obviously that’s not the same as working for non-family employers or in a legal employment agreement, but I wanted to mention it because it’s not as if I didn’t have any work experience until I had my college jobs. It’s just that it doesn’t belong on a resume and isn’t directly relevant or so-called skilled work.

        1. Emilia Bedelia*

          I’m not a recruiter, but I’ve been to a lot of job fairs, so this is just my experience as someone on the front end of the table (so to speak…). In my experience, recruiters use your resume more as a way to guide a conversation, not necessarily to submit for a position (because you’re right, the majority do say “ok, looks good, apply online”.) So, I stopped trying to make my resume exhaustive, and emphasized the most interesting/impressive bullet points and condensed the boring explanatory ones. Basically, I thought “What do I really want to tell recruiters about, and what things might they not ask about on their own?” Most of the people I talked to would scan the resume, pull out a random bullet point, say “Tell me about X experience…” and go from there. If you have too much stuff on there that isn’t relevant, the recruiters will get bogged down in stuff that doesn’t matter.
          Your “30 second sell”,as I was taught, also gives you an opportunity to explain yourself a bit- I applied for a lot of jobs that weren’t obviously related to my major. My “sell” was something like “Hi, my name is Brunhilde Buckingham, I’m a senior majoring in Teapot Engineering,seeking a full time position for the summer. My concentration is in Teapot Materials, so I’m really interested in the Chocolate Structure research that your company performs.” I did multiple resumes for multiple job categories, focusing on different job responsibilities/experience. I put my middle initial in my name on my engineering resume, and no initial on my quality/manufacturing resume to make them easier to differentiate quickly. Most of my friends did the same thing if they were applying to different jobs.
          Also, recruiters will ask about anything they think is weird and will make notes on your resume- I tried leaving my GPA off once, and every single person I talked to asked about it and wrote it down. If they think an employment gap is weird, they’ll ask about it and you’ll have an explanation. Then, when you apply online, you can enclose your full history.
          So, if I were in your shoes (again, I’m NOT a recruiter/person who hires by any stretch!), I would focus on job experiences that are relevant to what you want to apply for and put together multiple resumes.

        2. Snazzy Hat*

          I would list it on the resume as volunteering. Sure, my teaching assistant internships have nothing to do with my career path, until you recognize them as “I worked independently,” “I was happy to help others,” and “I efficiently took care of the little things so the professor didn’t need to bother.” I didn’t get paid (it counted as a course) but I certainly learned transferable skills.

  149. Penny*

    I just had a conversation with a company we partner with/are a customer of and feel kinda proud but still a little shaken. I was able to use advice I got from AAM about pushing back with vendors for the last couple conversations I had with them and I’m really lucky that my manager has my back, but push back & having those tough conversations is something I struggle with and don’t like to do, so I wanted to force myself to do it. So thank you Alison and the commenters from that thread for providing me with some tools and ways to manage that conversation. I’m trying to not take it personally, but I still got a little angry internally because the guy got kind of nasty and I felt like he maybe thought he could “scare” me into agreeing with him by talking to me like an angry dad, but I thought of those comments and just turned it around and ended it civilly and have escalated it to my manager. But having that advice really allowed me to go into the conversation prepared with some good points and removed my nervousness.

    1. Fawnling*

      That’s great!! Can you give some examples on how you handled it? I am a serious pushover and my boss has mentioned that he would like me to consider a managerial role. I am freaking out! I don’t handle confrontation well due to a family that thrives on it – I run from controntation.

      1. Penny*

        @ Fawnling- Read this thread from AAM, that was my biggest help. Using advice from Alison & the commenters, I made sure to keep my tone pleasant though still firm, had some good points prepared, remembered I was advocating for my company, not myself and it also helped to remember to just state my points and shut up. It also helps to know that my manager has my back.

        https://www.askamanager.org/2012/06/how-to-push-back-with-vendors-partners-and-other-external-contacts.html

        I’m also planning to read the book Crucial Conversations based on the suggestions and I was recently in an HR training class and the teacher said she teaches a course based on that class, so that might be something to look into if it’s offered locally. She said that book changed her life.

  150. Raia*

    Is this sexism in the workplace? My colleagues and I, all the same job title, have been divided into 2 teams. There are two men and three ladies with varying levels of skill on the computer, but it so happened that the two men are pretty skilled in our computer system first. The teams were called Team John and Team Matthew. I didn’t have a problem with that, at first. I am one of the ladies and have been getting more skilled with the computer system, yet our manager always refers to the teams as Team John and Team Matthew, no Team Katelyn, Judy, or Ruth. At this point I would like to be seperated from my team, because I am independant on the computer system and I can’t escape the feeling that this is sexism. Is it?

    1. fposte*

      Are you objecting to the title or objecting to the team? (Does the team mean anything beyond the title?) I don’t think it’s necessarily sexist–if the men are the distinguishing feature, I can understand going to them–or necessarily not–because you can have Red Team and Blue Team without hurting anybody, and it does sound like the men are in charge of the teams when it sounds like they’re not.

      So what do you want to do? Would your team be on board with deciding to rename itself (do your initials spell a word, maybe?) and telling the boss? I don’t think it makes sense to ask to work independently right now, because working in teams is pretty common and it’s not clear why being on a team would hurt your work. But I think you can try calmly rename yourselves.

      (In the U.S., by the way, the female workers are generally “women,” not “ladies.” If you’re in the U.S. and the boss is calling them “men” and “ladies,” that’s another data point for sexism right there.)

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      There’s no reason to think it is sexism, especially because you say that John and Matthew were the most skilled to begin with.

      Is it a good idea to name them Team John and Team Matthew? I don’t know.

      If John and Matthew are team leaders, which is sounds like they are, calling it John’s Team and Matthew’s Team would be okay (sub-optimal for some reasons, but okay). If they aren’t team leaders, then it’s weird but no evidence of sexism that I can see.

      (Now, generally, I generally hate teams of people being referred to by the name of the leader. I think it’s a bad idea, but it’s often done. I don’t let anyone refer to my group or my people or my direct reports as [First Name]’s [whatever], nor do I ever do that with anyone else. )

    3. Fawnling*

      Were the team names chosen based on computer skill? What are the teams supposed to represent? The naming is kind of icky, I’ll admit.

    4. LCL*

      Naw, this isn’t sexism. Not yet. Your instinct is right, to go independent and show what you can do. Tell your manager you are now ready to be team Raia. Pick your battles, this sounds really minor.

    5. Raia*

      I’m objecting to the teams being referred to only as Team Matthew and Team John, even though the goal of being in teams is learning from the leader enough to be independent. One leader in particular has already displayed an ego issue, leading me to believe that this reference is a contributor. Eventually each person will be stationed at completely separate locations. With the goal of independence in mind, I’ve improved my skill in the computer system enough that I can be. These aren’t permanent teams, but teams around helping us all learn from the ‘leader.’ Since I’ve learned what I’m supposed to learn though, and we’ll all end up seperated anyways, that’s why I was thinking of establishing myself as ‘not needing a trainer anymore.’ I suggested rotating team names through the team members, to give everyone a sense of responsibility in the team. It doesn’t help that the team leads were guided to see themselves as teachers, and the rest of the team as students, as that makes the gap seem wider than it should be.

      I really don’t understand the difference ladies and women, as long as neither are spoken sarcastically. But, you’re all right, I should establish myself and also take a chill pill. Thanks!

      1. fposte*

        In general, “ladies” is the partner to “gentlemen”–it’s a social term, not a professional one. The partner to “men” is “women.”

  151. Ang in Admin*

    I just put in my two weeks notice today (it was my first time ever). My manager was shocked but was supportive. It was awkward for me but I am super excited about my new job and the new opportunities ahead of me. My question is how to I tell my co workers, particularity one of them. I work the closest in her but they only way our jobs overlap is answering the phone. She has been here 8 years longer than I have and when something does not go the way she wants it she doesn’t handle it well. Example: I had the flu a couple of weeks ago. I caught it over the weekend and was out for most of the week. I texted her and my boss to let them know what was going on Sunday night. I get in on Thursday and she won’t speak to me. My hellos and questions were ignored. (even when i ask her if something was wrong).

    Should I just sent out an email to everyone? We are a pretty small office around 15 to 20 people. Or should I just suck it up and tell her and everyone else in person? Also when should I do this? Can I wait until next week?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. asteramella*

      Your coworker is unreasonable. Giving someone the cold shoulder in response to someone being sick shows poor judgment.

      Don’t worry about her reaction. Putting in notice is a normal part of your work life. You may want to ask your manager how she would prefer you handle it, but don’t defer to your coworker’s unreasonable expectations or tiptoe around her–just act calm and normal and continue to be polite and cordial to her, even if she throws a tantrum.

    2. Anon Academic*

      There are always going to be some people who take their coworkers/friends resigning far too personally. What you are doing is perfectly normal and expected in any field. People move on. I’d be kind but resist the urge to explain or apologize for this. They’ll come around (or they won’t). Congrats on the new job, btw.

      Whether you tell them in person or not depends on your relationship with the people in your office. I personally would have already told anyone I was super close to, then would send out a blanket email to everyone else announcing the news and telling them how much I had enjoyed working with them all. People will seek you out to ask questions or offer congratulations.

  152. Master Bean Counter*

    Weird thing just happened in my office. A monthly lunch for the department and all of the upper people were in the conference room talking and having a great time. One line person was in there, a guy. The three other women in the office, two of whom are line people, didn’t join us. I was the only female in the room.
    It just felt wrong. I’m going to encourage the other women to join in next time if this isn’t a one-off thing.

  153. Anon Academic*

    I’m really embarrassed to talk about this, but I feel safe in this environment, so I thought I’d just throw it out there and see if anyone else can empathize or suggest tactics to help.

    I’m almost 40 years old and have successfully worked all kinds of jobs. The last five years or so, I’ve been in a non-teaching academic position. Lately (as in the last two or three years) I’ve had more and more problems with staying on task and getting my work done. We all joke about this — there are cartoons about people on Facebook or goofing around online daily on the interwebs — but it’s stopped being funny. I KNOW I need to focus. I LOVE my job. I feel confident with my abilities to do that job. I just can’t seem to stop getting distracted.

    It’s depressing and it’s making me loose sleep at night. Anyone out there have ideas?

      1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

        Hypothyroid symptoms, perimenopause, iron deficiency all cause focus problems. It’s not always ADD.

    2. AFT123*

      I’m sorry you feel like this. Do you think it’s possible that your job isn’t challenging you enough anymore? Even if you love your job, it might be worth looking into swapping out some responsibilities or adding new projects if possible, just to shake things up and get your attention.

      Otherwise, perhaps there is a chemical or hormone imbalance that is causing this that you could speak to a doctor about.

      1. Anon Academic*

        Colorado and AFT123 – I might actually make an appointment about this. My brother in law is a brilliant software engineer but has been on meds for years. It seems to help him focus. I just don’t want to risk messing with my personality or mood. I’m a pretty cheerful person and I like my attitude. I used to teach middle school and the stuff they put some of the kids on for their ADHD changed their whole personalities. I keep hoping there are some exercises or tricks I can use to retrain my self how to focus. I leave my cell phone in the car now, for example (though my college aged daughter hates it because she likes having me on call lol). Maybe there’s a musical album or white noise recording that’ll help? Maybe a meditation exercise? Maybe a support group for the chronically unfocused!? Though I’d probably get distracted shopping for curtains on the way to the latter and miss it.

        The only place for me to go right now in my current job is director of the department and I don’t feel I’m ready for that role yet (partly because of how easily distracted I am). I need to get this together so I don’t wake up at 4am in a panic because I have a report I’m behind schedule on. That’s not good for my mental health. I seriously didn’t have this much trouble staying on task when I was a teenager!

        1. Anon Academic*

          As for additional projects, my director is great about giving me freedom to suggest and pursue other projects for the department. I DO actually have more fun with those, but still get distracted. And these are projects I proposed myself.

          1. AnotherAlison*

            This is what I came here to suggest. I personally have not even a smidgen of ADHD, and I love my work (most of it). I got into the habit of compulsively opening a web browser and going to different sites when I’m waiting for a file to load or something. It’s like the 3 seconds SharePoint takes to open something is too long for me to wait. Fortunately, there are only 3 sites I go to regularly, so I block those when needed (including AAM). I still compulsively click open my browser and start typing “askam” but it just redirects me to google.com and, with nothing to see, I get right back to work. I like that I can still use the internet for things I actually have to do at work, but can’t go to the black hole of off-task sites.

      2. Manders*

        This is the first thing I would look at. Some people are motivated by new projects and have a hard time maintaining focus in the kind of role where you have to do the same tasks day after day, year after year. Many positions in academia also requires an unusually high tolerance for waiting for bureaucratic wheels to turn, which can make it feel like your day to day work isn’t consequential or isn’t getting noticed.

    3. chocolatechipcookie*

      If it’s internet distractions, there are apps and plugins to help with this – I use one called StayFocusd for Chrome that tracks how much time I spent on certain websites (like say AAM!), then blocks me after a certain time limit is up.

      However, maybe it’s also time to look into a different type of job?

  154. Anxa*

    I have a conference tomorrow, but I lost my glasses over the weekend. Any tips on how to professionally navigate this?

    I have Rx sunglasses that are very easy to see out of indoors/at night. I was planning on bringing them for any interactive activities or to read any powerpoints, etc. But do you think that’s going to look really weird? I mean, I know it will seem weird, but is it worth missing out on most of the information over?

    Also, I don’t see myself being able to replace them for at least a few weeks (can’t get an eye appt and it’s been over 5 years since my last exam so I need a new Rx–have a total budget of $125 so I have to shop around. Should I talk to my manager about it? I think I’ll be okay, although sometime I have to read across the table at someone else’s reading materials and it may be slowing me down a bit (so I’ve been wearing sunglasses sometimes).

    I guess on the one hand, I feel like I’d be judged or it would look like I have no understanding of social norms. On the other, it stinks to be self-conscious because I’d like to see.

    1. NASAcat*

      This just happened to me last month. I wore my Rx sunglasses for work and at night as needed for three weeks until I could get new ones. I found my old glasses the same day I got my new ones. Hilarious!

      Your last sentence = exactly how I feel/felt. I discovered no one cares! And if they do and say anything about it, they are a jerk.

      1. Snork Maiden*

        Also, if they are more glasses-y rather than sportsy, lots of people wear tinted lenses indoors for eye things, and will assume you are one of the cohort with eye issues that require it.

        1. NASAcat*

          My Rx’s look like RayBan Wayfarers. I just told myself that I looked like a bada$$ at all times.

          Yes! I had a friend in HS who wore sunglasses 24/7 for eye issues so I wouldn’t find it strange at all.

          Sometimes I wear my sunglasses indoors at stores and whatnot just because I am too lazy to switch to my regular glasses. If someone cares, that’s their problem :)

    2. Lillian McGee*

      I have these masochistic “what-if” fantasies where I drop my glasses case on the way to work and have to wear my ridiculous, huge, trendy Rx sunglasses all day… I would be truly blind without them!

      If you can make light of it, do. Haha, clumsy ol’ me lost my glasses so this is the only way I can see anything right now!

      …I keep a backup pair at home, maybe I should keep another backup at work too!

    3. afiendishthingy*

      I am functionally blind without corrective lenses, so I would put sight over any other concerns. Without glasses/contacts I would be unable to read text smaller than 100 point on my own computer screen or make out the facial features of any person I’m not actively making out with. It sounds like you are able to see things more than 3 inches from your face, but I still think you should go with the sunglasses. Won’t you get headaches? Squinting isn’t fun. Let people know what happened, laugh it off. I doubt they’ll care as much as you think.

    4. afiendishthingy*

      Also, thank you for reminding me to order contacts, I’m down to my last set, and I lost my glasses two months ago. I really need to get new glasses – I work with kids, what if I get pinkeye or something? – But I also need to get a new glasses prescription and it seems like so much trouble.

      1. Anxa*

        It is so much more trouble than I thought it’d be. Eye appointments are booked for at least two weeks!

    5. TootsNYC*

      This is why I refused to let my daughter reuse her old frames for her new prescription.

      I always keep my old glasses. They’re not great, but they’re good enough in a pinch.

  155. Xarcady*

    Came across this gem in my job hunt this week.

    “Executive Administrative Assistant for established Medical- Legal Business
    Admin. Assistant reports to and works with Senior Partner
    Modern radiant heated air conditioned office.
    Interacts by phone with multiple offices, insurance companies, and clients.
    Independent Contractor Status required, you will need your own laptop computer.”

    It goes on to list the average number of phone calls you would make per week, the number of appointments you would make, the number of invoices you would make, and the number of deposits, etc.

    But the statistics don’t really explain what the job is. In fact, the way they are listed makes me wonder if the person writing the ad is either a micromanager or someone who can only evaluate an employee with hard facts–they did so many phone calls, so many deposits, rather than the overall way they do their job and interact with clients.

    And does anyone else think it is odd that the heating/air conditioning is even mentioned in the ad?

    1. AFT123*

      Hahaah this is really odd. It sounds like a job that they are trying to hide the fact that it has cold calling and sales.

    2. Snork Maiden*

      “Benefits, schmenefits! I want a hot air register under my desk.”

      I have worked in a warehouse with overhead radiant heating, which created interesting hot and cold areas. I’d broil myself underneath the heater, then go work in a cold area for awhile. Not so great on the health, though. When I worked in an arctic air-conditioned office, I’ve never been so sick as I was the one summer, going from a 64 degree office to walking home in 95 degree heat and humidity.

      But no, the state of the HVAC system doesn’t usually count as a factor during my job searches.

      1. Anxa*

        Moving to the southeast did wonders for my eczema.

        Moving to the southeast gave me chronic nasal acne(?) and ruined my nails (no circulation in the summer due to thermal shock).

    3. Lillian McGee*

      Ha, “Independent Contractor Status required” …may as well say “We want as much work out of you for as little as we can get away with.”

    4. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      This is very funny.

      I’m with AFT that I’d bet a fresh $20 it’s a cold call sales or at least appointment setting job. Who talks like this?

      “Modern radiant heated air conditioned office.”

      It’s as if they’ve been running the same ad since 1973.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        I found the ad. It’s not sales.

        It is h-i-l-a-r-i-o-u- s.

        I googled
        Modern radiant heated air conditioned office administrative assistant

        It’s not sales, it’s, I don’t know what to say.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          It reads like English is not the first language of the person who wrote it. Certainly not American English (“Orthopaedic”, though… who knows).

          Looks like someone needs a Maid of All Work. In a doctor’s office. But hey, there are only 16 invoices to take care of!

          1. Manders*

            As someone who used to work in what sounds like the same industry, I can totally see a doctor sitting down to write this and thinking he described the work perfectly.

  156. KTE*

    Just got laid off from my contract job even though I have 6 more months until my contract ends. The excuse from my company? Not enough projects. It’s funny because I was assigned seasonal projects as my main assignment and that was for sure going to end in March. Clearly someone didn’t do due diligence filling up my contract. To add insult to the injury, my boss has now pulled additional projects out of thin air and hasn’t extended my contract. This gives me the impression I am being taken advantage of. I’ve been given 10 days to find a new job. To add even more insult to the injury, we just put a deposit for a puppy and now I don’t have any financial stability.

  157. Keeping it quiet*

    So. How does one work on burnout when you get basically no time away from work? I work insane hours at a very high stress job, many early mornings late nights and weekends, but after saving all my personal leave since November I have saved… Four whole days.

    My employer is entirely not interested in doing anything to help me or anyone else out on this; this is a high turnover gig for obvious reasons, and I want to leave but that’s proving extremely difficult to do. My productivity is rock bottom and I’m miserable. I don’t know what to do.

    I even tried going to therapy just as an outlet but since I already have such a tiny amount of time to myself in a week it was just One More Thing and stressed me out even more. I make garbage money and can hardly save in this area due to the high COL even though I have a really good deal on rent due to my roommate arrangement. Sometimes I spend a little bit on things I think will cheer me up like buying lunch or getting a new nail polish but it’s not enough to combat everything else and then I have the added stress of feeling like I wasted money.

    I tried to make a major career change twice last year and failed both times, I’m out of ideas. I applied for a bunch of jobs last fall and was unsuccessful, I started trying again recently but I don’t have the time or energy to put much into it.

    I’m at the point where I’m considering moving cities to live with my mom so I can just curl up into a ball for a while and pray I can still get a job later even though this place will give me a lukewarm reference AT BEST. But my family is not wealthy and she can’t afford to just baby my adult ass like that indefinitely.

    1. Joanna*

      This is a really difficult one. I know you’ve said you don’t have much time, but getting even a little more exercise can help. I find 5-10 minutes walking around the block in my lunch break helps, as does a little bit of gentle stretching at home later in the day. Listening to a lot of relaxing music may help take the edge off the stress. When I was in a similar situation Eric Whitacre’s album Light & Gold helped me immensely. Perhaps you also need to reframe how you think about your treats as not being a waste of money but as investments in your wellbeing.

      I hope something works out for you and you can find a job where pushing against burnout isn’t required.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If it’s a high turnover gig, is there anyone who has left who would help you find a new gig, perhaps with them?
      Do you have a boss that has left and would considering hiring you again?

      I will disagree with the exercise given your givens. I think that looking at your diet will help- load up on proteins and veggies, drink plenty of water. When you think about the energy it takes to do this tell yourself this IS your exercise program, to fortify your body with stuff that will support you through this crisis.

      Shake up what you are doing- maybe change your job search in some way? Maybe contact a person you would not have contacted earlier? Change something that you are doing, see where that puts you. Then move on change another thing. A while back I was looking online at jobs and not too much happened. Then I started telling acquaintances I was looking and, oh, my! I got a couple of interviews and a couple part time jobs very soon afterward. Keep tweaking what you are doing until something changes.

      I tend to believe that it’s darkest before the dawn. Sometimes when we hit a spot where we feel “I. can’t. do. THIS.” that is when things open up.

      Good vibes heading your way…

  158. Lillian McGee*

    We are hiring and I am having such fun reviewing resumes. One applicant actually wrote under his current job “I am damn good at what I do.” Ha! I can’t wait to hear what the hiring manager thinks of that one. Also, I am dismayed that some of these rather highly educated people are sending me files named resume.doc!! Put your name on it!!

    1. katamia*

      LOL. I’ve been so tempted to put that exact statement on my resume before (but haven’t, of course).

  159. Lou*

    Hey everyone! Happy Friday! I’m wondering if any of you would be willing to weigh in on a minor situation I’m finding myself in. I had received an email from a hiring manager to set up a phone interview – nothing too unusual there. In my haste to respond, I automatically addressed her as “Ms. Last Name.” I didn’t think to look at her email sign off until now, after doing a search on this website for emailing etiquette (she only used her first name). To be clear, she addressed me by my first name – which is totally fine. I’m in my twenties and this is a more junior position, so I didn’t think anything of it. Then her assistant, who had been cc’d on the previous email, sent a follow up and addressed me as “Ms. Last Name.” She also signed off with just her first name. Now I feel like I’m over-analyzing it, because on the one hand I’m inclined to respond back (reply-all) to the assistant and greet her using her first name. On the other hand, I don’t want them to think I have this weird mentality about seniority and power differentials and whatever. (Maybe I do??) So should I respond to the assistant using her first name or should I do the “Ms. Last Name” thing again?

    1. Lillian McGee*

      You’re definitely over thinking it. You can switch to using first names now and it won’t look weird. I think it naturally takes a couple emails to feel someone out re: address, so if you feel like they are leaning toward casual, by all means lean with them. I prefer first names, so if someone kept addressing me as Ms. McGee, I would address it when introducing myself in person (or over the phone).

    2. hermit crab*

      I agree with Lillian — don’t worry about it! This happens all the time and is totally, totally normal. (I routinely get emails addressed to Ms. Crab and then after I sign my reply with just Hermit we are on a first-name basis from there.)

  160. blackcat*

    I’m a grad student, and I just found out that I will 100% have an undergrad researcher working on one of my projects for a while.

    It’s 100% my project (not my advisor’s project or a post-docs), and it’s my first time mentoring/managing/having someone else to do my grunt work.* While I have taught in classrooms, this seems like a pretty different kind of a thing.

    Any tips? I think I have a well designed project, but what advice do folks have for me so that I can make sure he has a good experience?

    *I promise it’s not awful grunt work. He seemed quite excited about it when I told him about the data analysis I’m hoping to have him do. I am just at the F—-it-I-have-enough-data-and-need-to-write-my-f—ing-dissertation phase of the PhD. I’ve collected data that I think is interesting, but I’ve been thinking I’d have to put it on the back burner until my dissertation is done because it’s not the work that gets me out of here.

    1. chocolatechipcookie*

      You may want to have some high level goals about approximately what you expect to get done by when, and communicate those. Then make sure to checkin and just talk about what he’s gotten done, more frequently at first and then less as you see he’s got a clear idea of what he’s doing and understands which issues need to be resolved by you.

    2. Ultraviolet*

      Is the idea primarily that he’ll help you with whatever you’ll need help with, or primarily that he’ll get a paper or thesis or class project out of it? If you haven’t already, I suggest making sure you, he, and whoever decided he’ll be working with you are on the same page about that. I’m guessing the ideal scenario is that he manages to do both, but it might help to think ahead to various ways he could wrap up his portion of the work and still end up with a complete project if that’s what he’s been promised and things aren’t going as well as you’d hoped.

      Is he committed to putting in a certain number of hours per week or producing deliverables by certain dates, or is he just working on this as his coursework allows? Whatever the answer, that’s another thing you should all be clear on.

      Set expectations about what kind of documentation he’ll keep on his work. You don’t want to wind up unable to trust something he did down the road because you can’t retrace his steps.

      I feel like that all came out negative, and I didn’t mean it to! I hope it will be fun and useful for both of you.

      1. blackcat*

        He’s supposed to do 20hr/week for 8 weeks, with no goal product in mind. Since it’s an unpaid/academic credit internship, I want to make he learns a fair amount about research methods/etc. I do hope that if he’s able to do in 8 weeks what I could do in 1 fully-devoted week, it’d be enough for a conference poster/short paper. I’ve said that if we get far enough, a short paper is a reasonable goal, and I would write it (short papers on experimental work are easy-peasy. I am writing a beast of a theoretical paper write now, and it makes my head hurt–in a good way). My advisor, who was present for the meeting but isn’t running anything, agreed that that’s reasonable with the methods I’ve laid out. I have a short project using already collected data (and methods I know well) that I just am not making the time to do. I think mentoring someone through the process is a great way to get the work done. I’m always more motivated to do work if I can view it as “for” someone else, rather than just myself.

        The advice on documentation is GREAT! Thanks! I’ll think carefully about that before his official start date and come up with some guidelines. Good documentation will help me follow what he’s doing and make sure he doesn’t get off course.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Check in with the undergrad way more than you think you should need to, at least until you’re sure that they are making progress, understand the tasking, and are clear on expectations. Undergrads sometimes don’t have the understanding or experience to know what’s good versus what’s garbage output, so if you let them go too long, they could have a lot of rework to do. They also are more likely to still think that one all-nighter can knock out an assignment, so may procrastinate or push your project to the side when other classes get busy.

      1. Ultraviolet*

        “They also are more likely to still think that one all-nighter can knock out an assignment”

        That’s a really good point! I think one reason it’s especially likely to happen is that they may be used to assignments being handed down as complete packages with everything they need to know included. So with a research project they might not leave themselves enough time to ask you several questions about logging into a system or how a database is organized or what a cryptic note means.

    4. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

      Oh this is so much fun when you do it right! Some things I do that work well:

      1. Have regular big picture check ins – I usually do beginning and end of semester, and mid-semester the first time I’m working with someone. Talk about your goals, their goals, how things are working, any concerns.
      2. Be really concrete about what you want/need. Provide a lot of structure. I have weekly lab meeting with written agendas, we always start by checking in on assignment status from last week and have specific tasks for the week’s meeting. Students know to add things to the agenda they want to address. I also do a weekly or biweekly individual meeting with each student depending on nature of the project.
      3. Take advantage of opportunities to model what you’re doing. For example, I show undergrads abstracts I’m submitting before they go in, have them read articles I’m reviewing and talk about the review process with them, etc. Things that are annoying grunt work for you are new and useful to them!

      It’s time consuming. It may be more work than just doing it yourself. But seriously if can be so rewarding!

  161. chocolatechipcookie*

    How can I keep our new teapot QA person from driving me up the wall?

    I get that different people do things differently, but this new guy is super-involved, whereas the previous QA person was more hands off. I’ve talked about it with my boss, and it sounded there just needed to be some clarification of roles, but at no point has anyone said, okay, teapot QA is officially going to be more involved now, so I have no expectation that things should significantly be changing.

    Teapot QA is mainly supposed to make sure that we follow the process in reviewing our new teapot designs, and certify that we did things right when testing new teapots. Our process at a high level is pretty straightforward and well-documented. But he seems to want to get into all the details of our process at a low level and also as he has some background in teapot design, he seems to be getting interested in the design itself. I do not have the time to teach about our particular teapots to someone whose job is not teapot design. And some of the questions he asks also don’t seem to demonstrate a good understanding of teapot design work. (I also suggested to my boss that maybe we could give him some other teapot related tasks to focus his energy on, but boss didn’t seem to like that idea.)

    My approach thus far is to ask that he ask me things directly (me being the chocolate teapot lead) rather than asking in review meetings or bothering my team members, as the focus in the review should be on discussing new teapot design issues, among the teapot design team. QA’s involvement at this stage is typically minimal in my experience. Generally these meetings are short and quick, so that the team can get back to their own work, and I want to keep it that way – we have a lot of work to do. But new QA person is starting to want to know all this detail or make suggestions to document more detail that is just getting grating. If we were doing a poor job, I could understand more scrutiny, but other than the well-documented design and test process which we do follow, my boss has given the teams leeway to do things how we like. We’re responsible people and my team is pretty awesome at their jobs.

    We’ll see how this works out in the next few meetings. I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt since I know he’s just trying to do a good job, but… argh.

  162. Gladys Not Me*

    Has anyone ever heard of getting paid by the “client” as a social worker for a case management company? I’m friends with someone who is classified as a non-exempt employee, but they get paid an “hourly rate” not on the number of hours they work, but on the number of clients assigned. So, if you’re assigned 35 clients, you get paid for 35 hours a week, even if it takes 70 hours per week to service them. Service them, meaning, make weekly contact, take the people to their appointments (in your own car), try to find them, even if they’re homeless and their address is, under the tree down by the river. I guess the company gets paid by the state a certain amount, or by insurers that have requirements for payment. Meanwhile, there’s no overtime pay, even though you can have your pay docked if you don’t do everything, even if you have tons of overtime just trying to find the clients to service them. I’m not familiar with this industry and it’s driving me nuts trying to figure out if this is legal.

    1. TootsNYC*

      I would think your friend could find that out through some conversations with the state’s labor department.

  163. mander*

    I’m kind of happy that it was my otherwise lovely colleague’s last day today. Every single day for the past two weeks at least she has made some kind of fat-shaming comment, and it’s been getting on my nerves. Granted as a fat person I’m a bit hypersensitive to these kinds of things but it was really irksome.

  164. AnotherPerson*

    Changed up my name a little to post this.

    There was a very surprising firing at work this week (in my dept). There has been some gossip and people who are close friends with the person let go are telling others what they told him.

    What is crazy is they gave him a promotion and raise a week ago. People do not usually get fired like this. People get pulled off jobs, put on PIPs, demoted, and then sometimes fired 6-12 months later. I will find out from either the gossipers or the freshly scheduled department meeting next week, but right now, I’m just scratching my head to figure out what someone could have done that was egregious enough to get fired like this AND not have a clue that you did it. . .he was surprised. (Way back in the day, a few people were fired on the spot when the company president got a phone call from a client about some bad behavior at a job site, but these people knew what was coming.)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Keep in mind that a lot of the things egregious enough to get you fired with no warning the week after a promotion and raise are often things that the fired person doesn’t want to share with coworkers. Few people want to say “they caught me watching porn” or “I charged a hooker to the company credit card” or “I embezzled” and will often instead say that they’re mystified about what the reason was.

      I’m not saying that’s the case here — but keep it in mind as a thing that can happen.

      1. AnotherPerson*

        That is a good point. I do think this person might have thought he was untouchable because of his skill set, so who knows what he thought was okay because “they would never fire ME.”

  165. A. D. Kay*

    Some of you may remember that a few months ago on another open thread, I described an uncomfortable encounter with a coworker who reacted very rudely and angrily when I asked him to switch to headphones while listening to music. (He ignored me, came over and stood in the doorway of my cube to listen for himself, then asked another coworker for his opinion. WTF??) Well, guess what? He’s still there. I got laid off.

    The good news is that I had a promising phone interview today with another teapot company that focuses more on what I want to do. It’s actually a relief not to go back to that other place anymore.

    1. hermit crab*

      Wow, I remember that, and I’m sorry to hear that you got laid off. Best of luck with the new company! I hope you never encounter something like music-guy again!

      1. A. D. Kay*

        Thanks very much! I’m actually fine with being laid off because I qualify for retraining assistance (like software development courses). And yes, I am very glad that I will never see Angry Music Dude again.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I love how illogical people can be.
      “Your music is bothering me.”
      “It can’t be, it’s not that loud.”

      Ummm, if I can actually know you have it on, it’s loud enough to bother me. Because, well, how would i know you have it on unless I could hear it?

  166. hermit crab*

    So, I explained the phrase “bitch eating crackers” to my manager the other day, and it was beautiful. She agreed that it perfectly illustrated what she was experiencing w/r/t a particular situation. I was like, my work here is done. :)

  167. pip issues*

    I am a manager of a small team and after a few huge consecutive mistakes from one of my direct reports (who was a weaker team member since he started 18 months ago), we (my mgr, hr and myself) decided to put the employee on a PIP. My employee has taken it seriously and is really trying to do better. He has improved on all the action items on the PIP and would like to be taken off of it. The issue is, he just is not a good fit for this role personality wise. Part of me feels like we should lift the PIP and the other part feels like I’d rather have someone in the role who is a better fit. I’ve tried for the whole 18 months he’s been with us to get him to work on his soft skills, but he seems to be very introverted and I have been unable to get him out of his shell. It causes issues sometimes as he barely knows anyone at the company and is un able to build relationships with the people that would directly benefit him in his day to day work. I am leaning toward still lifting the PIP because he did actually improve on the action items but I am still unsure. Has anyone dealt with something like this before?

    1. NicoleK*

      You can lift the PIP and let him go because it’s not a good fit. Though as an introvert myself, I’m curious as to how his introversion has affected his work performance. I’m fairly reserved and some former coworkers will probably say that they didn’t really know me all that well, but I got my work done. I collaborated with people when I needed to.
      Does he keep to himself and not communicate with others and that affects his work? Are projects delayed or incomplete because colleagues won’t work with him? Is he in a role that requires him to be more outgoing and social (i.e. fundraising, receptionist, and etc)?

      1. pip issues*

        He’s introverted to the point where he is too nervous to ask other teams questions and struggles with leading calls/meetings with them. He relies on me to jump in a lot to explain things. Actually introverted probably isn’t the right word to describe it. I think he may suffer from social anxiety. I try to be accommodating to it but it is to the point where it effects his day to day work. (This wasn’t the reason for the PIP though, the consistent mistakes on work is the reason.)

        1. NicoleK*

          I’m assuming that in the 18 months that he’s been with the company, that you’ve clearly laid out expectations for him. Sounds like what’s needed in this role is someone who is confident, a decent communicator, and exhibits leadership. Yes, it is time to let him go even though he made it through the PIP. And I do agree with AnotherFed, be kind and generous to him (besides the references, time to find another job, unemployment benefits, and etc). He doesn’t sound like a terrible employee, just not a good fit for the job.

    2. AnotherFed*

      You need to frame the personality fit issue in terms of work impact, first and foremost. Introversion isn’t a problem in and of itself, but poor soft skills might mean no one will enter trouble tickets with this person, customers find him brusque and unwelcoming, other departments avoid answering/helping him because he has alienated them, etc. Since he improved on the things written in his PIP, there might be hope for him, if you can explain the specific problems. If you think relationships aren’t too badly damaged, I’d try to add the soft skill improvements as his next steps.

      If you don’t feel that he can repair the damage done even if he can make progress on soft skills, then you fire him. You’re kind of moving the goalposts on him, so you still should acknowledge that he has done the changes requested under the PIP and explain why you don’t think those changes can salvage his job. Be as generous as you can on references, time to find another job, etc.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Moving goalposts on him concerns me, not just from the ethical POV (which is an issue), but from the management end.

      If you laid out a PIP, and he met the terms of the PIP, and you still believe his performance isn’t good enough for the job, then the PIP wasn’t set up properly. You didn’t include all of the things he needed to improve to meet standards.

      Now, I get it. Sometimes there are layers that reveal, like I thought the problem was X but when X was cleared up I could see it was X and Y that were the issue. So, I sympathize but I’m cautious about whether all ya’ll have it right even yet. Very few people are The Ideal in their positions, and if they are The Ideal you either can’t afford them, can’t retain them, or have to promote them. I don’t believe in sticking with people who are deficient at their jobs but I do believe in working with and around less than The Ideal.

      So! What it sounds like I would do in this situation is congratulate him on his improvements (move him off PIP — we don’t do formal PIPS so I’m a little out of my realm in that advice), and then come up with a new, hopefully narrow and hopefully achievable, set of things I’d like to see him do re the interaction concerns. The new list would be as actionable as possible, not a soft “improve soft skills” but do A, B, C.

      True story: for better or worse, we did this with one of our managers of a small team. He had been brought into the company to start up a department and horrific blinders on getting to know even the names or faces of anybody outside of his small group. He was resistant to even trying. So we made him an assignment to meet 5 people every week. And when we had our weekly check in, we made part of the meeting about who he had met, and then had brief conversations about who that person is and what they did and where they fit in the rest of the pie.

      Did it work? Not really! :-) He was so stubbornly resistant to believing that any of these people mattered to his job (they did!!), that it never worked to achieve what we were trying to achieve BUT, what if it did. It could have worked.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I agree, it sounds like you didn’t craft the PIP right.

        All those things he relies on you to do because of his soft-skills problem? They should be in the PIP: “ask questions promptly without involving me.”

        I might say lift this PIP and work on setting up a new one. W/ introductory non-PIP expectations, of course.

        Sit down and think about all the business reasons—behaviors/words, not feelings, and the time and money cost that results. Use that to talk about what actions you want.

        A second set of “not really meeting expectations in other areas, hopefully we can avoid another PIP” convos will probably make him want to get a new job. Which would be a good thing.

    4. Nicole*

      I think it would be unkind to fire him even though he met all the requirements of the PIP. What kind of message would that convey not just to him but to his coworkers? Why bother improving if you get fired anyway? I do understand from reading your other comments that he’s still not meeting your expectations, though, but I think it would be more fair to express that to him and put him on a new PIP to address those things.

  168. Adnan*

    A member of one of my LinkedIn groups has changed his headline to ‘company name/job title (on leave due to workplace harassment’. Their full name and photo are on the profile. Is this ever appropriate?

    1. Joanna*

      No, absolutely not. It’s not appropriate to put bad things about a company you have been or are employed by on a LinkedIn profile (or other social media for that matter). It both defames the company and makes the individual look unprofessional. It’s especially a problem in a situation like this where there might be ongoing investigations about the issues that caused their leave.

      If they really needed to indicate that they were currently not actively working for some reason, they should use vague language like “currently on a career break” or “On extended leave”. In most situations it’s probably best to say nothing if they are likely returning to active work at the company.

  169. Confused*

    Did anybody ever find themselves in a job where your co-workers never warmed up to you? I’ve been at my job for two years now and I’m able to work with everyone, but they seem closer to one another. I thought it was because they’ve been there for a while compared to me, but another guy started around the same time as me and he fits in fine. I’m the only young female, but even the younger guys avoid me. I try to reach out and do other things to break the ice, but they just seem more comfortable around each other. I love my work, but the environment sucks. I feel like something is wrong with me, but is it just not a good fit?

    1. katamia*

      I’ve had a couple jobs like this, one admin and one retail. Both times it was more a social class difference, though–I come from a very white collar type of family, and a lot of my coworkers were more blue collar. At the place where I was an admin, my coworkers liked to tell me (not maliciously, but not diplomatically either) that I shouldn’t have gone to college and should have gotten work experience instead (and given that I graduated right as the recession was starting, they may not have been wrong, lol, but it was too late to change it). I quit after a few months, although that was primarily because of how unethical the company was and not because I couldn’t relate to my coworkers.

      My retail coworkers were nicer, but we really just found ourselves talking past each other a lot. Nobody’s fault there, really. My retail coworkers were also all smokers, and I’m a pretty fanatical nonsmoker, so they’d all take their smoke breaks and bond, and I’d just…not be there because I don’t like smoking. I only lasted about a month there, but I was also very frustrated with the hours (I had to be there at 5 or 6am, can’t remember which, which was brutal for a night owl like me) and the lack of proper training. I doubt I would have stuck it out at either of those jobs even if I’d loved my coworkers.

      It sounds like there might be some sexism and/or ageism going on in your case. Not that they’re necessarily consciously trying to exclude you, but they may be falling into the trap of “I’m more comfortable around People Like Me, and Confused isn’t People Like Me, and therefore I don’t know what to say around her.” Unfortunately, I don’t really have suggestions for that because in all my jobs, either the “Katamia isn’t People Like Me” gap hasn’t existed or I’ve been unable to bridge it. I hope things improve for you, though.

    2. NicoleK*

      If you’re the only young female, your colleagues may just feel more comfortable with their male colleagues. I wouldn’t take it personally if it doesn’t affect your job.

    3. AnotherTeacher*

      Nothing in your question points to something being wrong with you. I do wonder if it “sucks” because you’d like to have work friends or because you feel isolated (e.g., eat lunch alone, people stop chatting when you walk by). If it’s the latter, I’m sorry. That’s a tough situation.

      I think katamia frames it perfectly – at least I found that true for my situation in one job. As coworkers, we all got along and worked well together; however, I was not Like Them. I tried to relate, but there were too many differences for people to “warm up” to me. After a few years, new people came on who were Like Me. Though we didn’t become good friends outside of work, it was nice to feel more comfortable with some of my coworkers.

      Hang in there, Confused. In a year’s time, you could be the person a new hire thinks of as Like Me. I may be putting too much thought into your question, but it also sounds like you could be gaining soft skills experience that will make you a good mentor for other young women in your field.

  170. AnotherTeacher*

    Update on minor rant…

    A few weeks ago, I wrote about colleague “A”, who gave me attitude for asking her for help on a project. We did not talk about the incident and have been civil – e.g., “Good morning” type pleasantries. I figured it would blow over. She’s had problems with everyone in our department and a few people outside of it, so I know it’s not just me.

    There’s not much occasion to ask her for help, so there’s been no reason to go out of my way to initiate conversation. She’s asked for my help on a few issues, sending *very* formal emails each time. Most of the questions could have been answered with a quick “pop your head in the door and ask”. In a couple of cases, the questions could have easily been answered by reviewing the handbook or website. There was no need to ask me.

    Odd, no?

    1. NicoleK*

      I would give her the benefit of the doubt. Since that incident, it sounds like she isn’t sure how to communicate with you. And being too formal is not as bad as being too casual. As for asking you questions that she can look up herself, some people just operate that way. It doesn’t occur to them to look for the answers on their own.

  171. Sarah*

    How long should you keep a professor on your references list after graduating? I graduated in spring of 2014 and a trusted former professor who’s a pretty strong reference is still on there. I took more than one class with her, and she’s enthusiastic about my writing skills which is important for the jobs for which I’m applying. But since it’s been almost two years since I took a class with her, would it come off as weird or unaccomplished to still have her on there?

    1. AnotherFed*

      It’s pretty common to have a professor as a reference for the first job out of college, and maybe the second if you can’t get the first job to be a reference (or don’t want to tell them you’re looking). After that, it gets questionable, but that’s because you’re expected to have professional experience and professional references, not because it’s been a few years since they taught you. You can offer the professor as a reference anyway, but academia is so different from most professional jobs that they won’t carry as much weight, and the reference checker may ask for other people instead.

      1. Ashley*

        Is there a way to list her without saying she’s a professor? Like, one of my former profs is a freelance designer and I can list him as that with his professional contact info rather than his academia. That’s not to say they won’t find out he was my prof when they contact him, but it keeps them from making a judgement just from looking at my reference list.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Definitely don’t do that; that’s going to be really annoying. I don’t bother to call professor references at all, and I’d be annoyed to find that I was on the phone with one. (Although that probably wouldn’t happen, because a good reference checker will specifically ask you who people are if you don’t say it proactively.) Anyway, you need to say it.

  172. Anonyby*

    Really late here, but I hope some people are still reading!

    This have been crazy-busy at work these past few weeks. My office ended up giving part of our space to a sister-company a couple weeks ago, so we had to move all of the contractors in that space and rearrange everything… And at the same time, one of our FT employees moved on to work at said sister-company, so we were down a person during the move.

    I actually worked up my nerve and spoke to my manager about moving me FT. (In our office we have the manager, two FT, and one PT employee, and a bunch of contractors. I’m currently in the PT position.) It turns out there’s some stuff going on at corporate that he’s delaying hiring for, but I’ll be a frontrunner when he does start hiring.

    The problem I’m having is that our contractors keep asking me if I’m in the FT position now. Any good scripts to use to deflect this question?

    1. AnotherFed*

      “I’m currently part time. I don’t have any details on the timeline for replacing Former FT employee.” Follow it up with something appropriate depending on your relationship – that you’d love to go fulltime and hope you’ll be considered, that you’ll miss Former FT, or just that you’re handling as much of things as you can now that Former FT is gone, but if XYZ Former FT used to do are problems now, let Correct Person know.

      1. Anonyby*

        I think part of the issue is that I am the go-to for most of the stuff Former FT was doing, including training to get up to speed on some of the things she was doing. I’m also here six days a week, covering four days that she was here plus my normal two. From the outside it does look like I was moved up to replace her.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I’d just say, “No, I’m still in my old role.”

      And leave it at that. Try to convince yourself that it’s OK to say only one sentence.

  173. Ashley*

    I have a question about adding jobs to a resume. I have 2 current jobs, one I’ve been with since 2013 and the other I’ve had less than a month. The newer one I got out of necessity and I’m still hunting for something better. My question is should I put both jobs on my resume or should I leave the newer one off since I just started and it looks odd that I’m still hunting? Most of the jobs I’m applying for also have applications with employment history sections, so I presume I’m obligated to put everything on it and that leads to, will it looks odd if I put something on there that isn’t on my resume?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would leave off the one that’s less than a month, unless there is experience there that’s uniquely directly relevant to the position you’re applying to.

  174. Whininganon*

    Could I get another perspective on this? I don’t think I’m being unreasonable, but from my colleagues reactions when I bring this up I’m starting to think I might be whining.

    8 of the 12 people I work with have fans (I don’t). 6 of those fans were fairly rcently bought by the company, so they’re maybe a year to eighteen months old. They are fine. The other two are not fine – one is a personal fan and one is a fifteen year old company fan. Both of them emit this high pitched whining noise that gives me headaches, and when both are on at the same time I usually end up with a migraine and I have to get a lift home or a taxi because I’m no longer in a fit state to drive. Most of the rest of my colleagues are over 45 and can’t hear this noise, but the team members closer to my age can hear it clearly and aren’t affected by it in the same way.

    I’ve asked both colleagues to ask for new fans which don’t make this noise, which they are perfectly entitled to do with no repurcussions to them from the company, and they’ve both said no because they prefer their existing fans. Am I being unreasonable because I keep bringing it up?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s giving you migraines and forcing you to leave work! You’re not being unreasonable.

      I’d say this: “Jane, I’m so sorry to harp on this, but the sound is giving me migraines and even a few times caused me to go home from work because the headache was so severe. If it weren’t resulting in that, I’d of course not push the issue — but it is. I don’t see any resolution other than the company replacing your fan. Could we move forward with that?”

      If they refuse, at that point you need to ask your manager to intervene.

    2. TootsNYC*

      If you can hear it, the fan is definitely making a noise. And it’s giving you a headache. And I’d push on this.

      In fact, I’d go to your manager.

  175. Stella*

    Hi! New-ish lurker, first time commenter. I’ve been in my current role for almost 5 years, and it was my first full-time job out of college. It’s a great company with a lot of respect in the industry, but I’m ready for a change as I don’t feel like I have much growth potential left here. I work in TV research, basically using specific software to gather TV ratings and the like. Very specialized.

    As the industry is clearly undergoing a big change, I’d like to get more into a hybrid of what I do now (bc I love it and am good at it) and digital (will obviously eventually become the standard in TV research). A lot of jobs I’m interested in are asking for experience in more common digital analysis tools like Comscore or data modeling tools like SPSS. My question–are there courses that teach these kinds of software, since I don’t really have the opportunity to learn them in my current workplace? Not to toot my own horn but I’m pretty good at teaching myself things, it’s essentially what I did to get this job (had only the most basic of understanding of the main tool needed and then figured it out on the job). I feel confident I could do this in a new job as I’ve done it a ton of times since then with some of our lesser-used resources, but not sure if it would be a deal breaker in getting the job in the first place.

    On the same note, if you’ve taught yourself software or took an online course on it but never actually used it in a professional setting, how did you incorporate it into your resume? Skills section?

  176. Lisa*

    I hope I’m not too late to post a question!

    Has anyone here worked remotely while holding a leadership position and had it work out long-term? I was contacted out of the blue by a company on the East Coast who really want to consider me for a leadership role. My team would be scattered around the globe, so they aren’t terribly worried that I’m not at their headquarters, as most of my reports are intentionally located in a variety of time zones so as to serve a global base of end users.

    My worry is that I will stagnate in the position if I’m not willing to move to their headquarters, even though it’s already a fairly high-level position. I just can’t imagine them promoting me beyond director of this team without having me available day-to-day. I’ve seen companies attempt to have VPs and above working remotely, and it doesn’t really seem to work out.

    Anyone had the opposite experience and seen someone who won’t relocate to headquarters thrive in a leadership role? I have plenty of stories of the opposite but just want to see if I’m missing out on stories of this going well!

    PS. The reason I will not move is that the headquarters is in NYC, which is #1 on my very short “never, EVER” list. I like where I live, but would definitely move for the right job… just NOT to NYC! I do an outdoor sport that is fairly impossible in NYC without being a millionaire.

    PPS. If you’ve been following my posts in a couple other open threads about the exec in my current workplace who suffers from paranoia with delusions, not only is she still there, she’s been allowed to hire a new direct report :( hence me being willing to take a call from another company…

    1. Observer*

      Would this position be something you would be willing to hold for a few years, and then move on? Would this position help you or hinder you down the line?

    2. AFT123*

      The previous company I was at had a very strong remote workforce, including nearly all of the senior leadership team and salaried staff. It worked out really well. I’m sure a large part of the success was that the culture was firmly embedded in the organization. People were promoted into higher leadership positions, re-orgs happened, everything was totally fine. There was a corporate office where some people worked, but nobody from senior leadership, and I’d estimate 75% were remote, all around the world.

      I say give it a shot!! Unless of course they mention that they’d want you to move in the future, or if all of the other senior leadership staff is on-site. Then the culture may not be what you’re looking for. Keep us posted!

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