open thread – April 22-23, 2016

by Alison Green on April 22, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,370 comments }

{ 1,370 comments… read them below }

  1. ZombieGurl*

    My boss is often very hard to pin down when I need to talk to her about something. She’s often in meetings both in and out of the office and her calendar is infamously incorrect most of the time. When I need to give my two weeks notice to leave the job, should I send her an email that basically says ‘Need to speak with you, please come find me when you have a moment’?

    It’s not something I’d normally do but my work also never had a deadline so I usually just talk to her whenever I’m able to find her. I think an email would be the best way to let her know that I need to talk to her, and soon, but will also probably give her a heads up that something is up since I’ve never sent an email like that before. Should this be the way I go or is there another way to get her attention?

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      I’d aim for softer language. Just that you’d like to have an in-person meeting and when would she have time.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Agree. Maybe something like, “Need a few minutes today, when would be a good time?”

        1. Rob Lowe can't read*

          You might also suggest one or two times, ex. “I can stop by your office at 10:15 or 1:30, or let me know if there’s a time that works better for you.” This is what I usually do when I’m trying to schedule a quick check in with my boss (or anyone else I work with, we’re not really a calendar using workplace).

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      I would try scheduling a short meeting. Based on your description, this seems to be the best way to make sure you’ll get actual face time with her.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      I’d send an email except instead of asking for time to speak with her, say it in the email. “I wasn’t sure I’d have a chance to grab you in person for this, but I wanted to let you know ASAP that I’m putting in my notice and my last day here will be X. I’d still like to sit down with you and go over what needs to be done in the meantime so please come find me when you have a moment.”

      1. gsa*

        ^^^this and maybe attach the formal letter.

        BTW, are you leaving, planning to leave, or something else…

        Good luck regardless.

    4. Rat Racer*

      I had a boss like this – I used to camp outside her office for a chance to talk to her, and follow her into elevators to get in a 30 second question on her way to the top floor. She didn’t respond to email, text or voicemail, and cancelled our 1:1s about 80% of the time, so acting like a pathetic stalker was seriously the only way to resolve issues that required her input.

      For your situation, I don’t recommend announcing your departure in an elevator, but maybe you can catch her in her office between meetings?

      1. Beezus*

        Haha, I had one like that, too. And when he did encounter me in hallways on a busy day when he didn’t have time to talk, he’d avoid eye contact and wouldn’t say hello – I could almost hear the “donttalktomedonttalktomepleasedonttalktome” prayer in his head. I minded it less because you could tell he felt terrible about it, and he did eventually get it fixed – he split off one big process and about 1/3 of the team to work under another director who had time, and added a mid-level management role to handle another process and ~1/3 of his direct reports.

        1. Beezus*

          Oh, strategies – I paid attention to which times were best to catch him (noon and at the end of the day) and tried to ambush him then. I also knew which times were always awful (right before his Tuesday staff meeting was a no-go unless something was literally on fire). I’d also give him a heads up (“Hey, I need 10 minutes of your time sometime today to talk about the ACME project – I will work with any time you have, but it has to be today”). I always made sure to tell him how much time I thought I needed, and I always led with the most important thing in case I got cut short. If I could tell it was a bad day/time, I’d prep as much as I could and make sure I was coming with specific problems and solutions he could say yes/no to, instead of expecting a discussion. If I could frame it as one quick question or a one-sentence FYI update and it was urgent, I’d just send him a text instead.

    5. Ralish*

      I think your note is right (although you might say “I need to speak with you today.”) And yes, she’ll likely understand that something is up, which means she’ll be more likely to carve out a few minutes to speak with you. Good luck!

    6. Lily in NYC*

      Does your group send calendar invites? If so, how about emailing her and letting her know you need to put a few minutes on her calendar and then send the invite. Or if she has an assistant, ask him/her to find a time for you to meet.

    8. Soupspoon McGee*

      If she is impossible to pin down for even a few minutes, give her two attempts to meet with you, then email her your notice and note you’d like to talk about it.

  2. Fallow*

    Today is my last day at my current company and I have an exiting interview with HR this afternoon. At least 50% of the reason why I am leaving is because I cannot stand working with my co-worker, “Bob”, anymore. I brought concerns to my boss about him twice in four months and my boss told me the first time that he was new to the working world and to cut him slack, and the second time told me that we didn’t have to be friends, we just had to work together.

    Working with Bob was miserable. We were hired on the same day in a brand new department of the company doing something that the company had never tried before to see if it would take off. Bob had just graduated college and was joining the field for the first time. I had been in this field for years.

    To make a year-long story short, after 2 weeks Bob realized he was in over his head and shut down. He wouldn’t do his assigned work, he wouldn’t pick up any work from our shared pool unless I specifically told him to, and the customer suffered because of it. He would come in and browse Facebook or play games on his phone and completely ignore his work. Our work is customer serviced based and his interactions with customers were cringe-worthy and I was embarrassed by the way he represented the company. Customers eventually stopped wanting to deal with him.

    Fast forward a year and Bob is a nightmare. We had to hire a 3rd person in my department because Bob comes in 20 minutes late, takes 1 1/2 hour lunches, then starts packing up at 4:45 on the dot while the department is still hustling with work. He has a bad attitude if you ask him the status of his work or to pick up additional work and will either give a smart-ass remark, grunt, or just ignore you all together.

    The new hire, Jane, openly despises Bob. Jane is encouraging me to speak up about Bob during my exit interview since she has also went to Boss and he waved her off with the same excuses. I feel like the exit interview isn’t the place to air dirty laundry about co-workers and I don’t want to jeopardize the professional relationship I have with my boss. Aside from Bob my boss and I worked very well together and he was pleased with my work.

    What are your thoughts on this? Do I go ahead or just leave it behind me?

    1. Kasia*

      If they ask why you’re leaving I think you should tell them the truth. You don’t have to go into detail unless they really ask but there’s no reason for you to keep this a secret. Don’t expect things to change for Jane though, I’m sure management knows about Bob and they don’t seem to care.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Leave it behind. You’ve recognized the most important point: not to jeopardize the relationship with the boss, who will be your future reference.

      I’ve never actually seen any action taken by a company on items brought up during exit interviews, anyway.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        I’m in agreement. The only time I’ve given an honest exit interview was when I left my previous division to join my new one (same company). Frankly, I didn’t give a damn whether I burned a bridge on my way out – my boss’s boss, the one who conducted the informal interview, was going to know my boss was the reason I was leaving and just how psychotic she really is.

        But in the past, when I still needed glowing references from all of my employers because I was still entry-level and/or very junior, I always smiled and lied – everything was great. I’m leaving for growth and advancement opportunities. I wish your company/firm much success. That kind of thing.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      For Jane’s sake, I’d sure be tempted to say at least a little bit. “You can have good workers or lazy workers, but you can’t have both. Lazy workers will eventually drive off the good ones. Jane’s a good worker.”

    4. Daisy Steiner*

      Personally, I’d definitely be straight with them on the reason you’re leaving. There’s no need to be nasty, or to get carried away with your frustration, but telling them clearly how difficult it has been to work with Bob and that that’s the main reason your leaving doesn’t, to me, seem like ‘burning bridges’ (I think that’s why some people disagree with being free and frank in your exit interview?).

    5. Ann Cognito*

      It’s definitely a tough one because of your relationship with your manager/burning bridges. The majority of people wouldn’t say anything, and that’s exactly the issue with exit interviews, because people think why bother at that stage. You tried while you were there and nothing was done, which is actually a bad reflection on your manager.

      If you were to say something today, even if you have a great HR department, and they bring it back to the manager, is he going to do something about it now? Why doesn’t Jane speak-up? Are you the only one who’s spoken up to your manager at this stage? Maybe he might do something if Jane also brings it to his attention.

      I’ll be interested to see what others say.

      1. NoProfitNoProblems*

        She specifies in the comment that Jane has gone to the boss and been brushed off.

        1. Ann Cognito*

          Oops, I read too fast, and ended-up with it in my head that the LW had gone to the boss but not Jane!

      2. Fallow*

        Thank you for your feedback!

        Jane brought it to boss’ attention in a one-on-one and he also told her that he was new and was still learning. I reiterate that I really liked boss, but he had kind of a “bro” relationship with Bob. Boss could professionally say “good morning, how are things?” to me and Jane, then would get to Bob and slap his back and exclaim “What’s going on, man! Did you see the game?” etc. etc. while Bob had his nose in his phone (which he was not supposed to have out on his desk – CEO banned cell phones because of people like Bob abusing the privilege).

        1. Meg Murry*

          Ok, this brought me around to the point that you have a *manager* problem, not a *Bob* problem. However, throwing your manager under the bus at this point probably wouldn’t do anything other than burn bridges. I’d just go with the standard generic reasons for moving on, and maybe throw a “Jane’s been doing a lot of good work, now that I’m leaving I’d hate to see her overburdened – I’m afraid she’ll burn out if she doesn’t get some good assistance fast” or something similar [sorry my wording stinks] to let them know that Jane is great and imply that Bob isn’t without saying anything.

        2. RVA Cat*

          I have to wonder, is Bob somebody’s nephew or something? There has to be some political reason he gets to slack off like this.

          1. Windchime*

            Everyplace I’ve ever worked has had a slacker that doesn’t do a fraction of the work of others. It doesn’t usually do any good to complain about them; for some reason, management tends to be protective of them. I have no idea why.

        3. Lily in NYC*

          I’m mouthy so I advise saying something, especially for Jane’s sake. I’d be sure to mention that you have both tried to speak to your boss about coworker and were brushed off and also bring up the “bro” friendship and say you feel like your boss is sexist and cutting a crappy worker too much slack because he’s a dude. That might get their attention.

        4. Sally*

          How would mentioning the fact that you have to do extra work because of bob burn any bridges with a boss who obviously won’t do you any favors in the future anyway? Especially if you are male, I’d encourage you to speak up for Jane and other female employee’s sake. Glad you are getting out of there and good luck!

    6. Ama*

      I think it’s fine to say something if you *want* to (although I’d keep it to how Bob’s attitude/inaction made your work environment so unpleasant you decided to leave, and keep Jane’s thoughts and your boss’s refusal to act out of it), but if you have reason to think even bringing the subject up will prompt a defensive reaction from your boss or make him penalize you in references later, you don’t have to say anything.

      I was fairly circumspect in my last exit interview even though it was with a central HR rep and not my boss because the reasons that I was leaving that my boss understood (overwhelming workload, complicated organization structure that made it difficult to get anything done) she was already aware of, and the other issues (such as the fact that her efforts at helping me with said workload were just making things worse) she would have seen as a personal attack. So I kept most of my comments to concerns about changes in the overall workplace culture that I’d noticed (and which the HR rep said I wasn’t the only person to note).

    7. Mando Diao*

      Since you’ve spoken up about Bob before, I don’t think it would seem petty or “out of left field” to mention it in your exit interview. I might say something like, “I enjoyed my role here, but as I and Jane have indicated multiple times, Bob made it difficult for me to be proud of the work I was doing. I cannot continue to pick up his slack for him when his poor work ethic is a known issue.”

        1. Erin*

          I like this approach as well. Just remember to be matter-of-fact, keep emotion out of it, etc. But yeah, I’d err on the side of transparency.

      3. Mephyle*

        Or even more elliptically – “There was a known issue that has been impeding our ability to do my work. I brought it up to our manager, and I believe Jane has done so too, but nothing was done. I am looking forward moving on to an environment that is supportive of employees doing their job instead of ignoring employee feedback on known hurdles that affect the efficiency of their work and the bottom line of the company.”
        tl;dr: I told you this was bad but you preferred to ignore me. Now you are asking me again. Still the same thing.

    9. Gandalf the Nude*

      Your manager is the problem way more than Bob is. Here’s an employee with a bad attitude, providing poor service, and goofing off on company time (and dime), and the manager has apparently decided not to address it. If your manager were any good at his job, Bob would have either improved or been managed out by now. Instead, he added to the budget by hiring a third person to cover work that could be done by two competent people.

      But if you’re truly concerned about maintaining a bridge with your boss, you should probably let it go and demure in the exit interview. Not your circus, not your monkeys, after all.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        Yeah, your boss truly sucks and isn’t managing, just ignoring that there is a problem(s) at all.

        I would say something, purely for Jane’s sake. Other people have given excellent scripts of what to say. Good luck!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. The first few weeks or even months this was a Bob problem. Because it has been going on for a year or longer, it has graduated to being a boss problem. Your boss can’t manage people.

        I am sitting on the fence about mentioning Bob or not. I don’t think anything will be gained from mentioning it- the boss likes where things are at. I might be tempted to thank him warmly for the opportunities he gave you and let it go at that. If he asks you point blank if problems with Bob drove you out, you could say something like, “Well, the problems with Bob did cause me to start to look around. But now I have this wonderful opportunity and I really cannot pass it up.”

      3. CMT*

        Agreed that the real problem is the manager! If two good employees have brought up the issue, I don’t think mentioning it in the exit interview will make any difference.

    10. NoProfitNoProblems*

      It’s not ‘airing dirty laundry’: Bob is the main reason you are leaving, plain and simple. If they’re losing good workers because of Bob, the company needs to know that.

    11. Kimberlee, Esq*

      Eh, I’d say you should mention it. You’ve mentioned it to your boss before, and it’s not like it’s a secret. You can keep it short, even something like “I’m leaving in large part because Bob is a nightmare to work with, everyone knows it, and nobody is willing to do anything about it.” You don’t need to get into details, I think, because the behaviors are so egregious. I understand why you wouldn’t want to talk about it, but I’m a big proponent of transparency in the workplace, and for me it would be a “be the change you want to see in the world” situation.

    12. NacSacJack*

      I would be careful what you say. Do not burn bridges with this employer. I would simply say I’ve had to take on too much work due to the performance of fellow employee. It sounds to me like your boss is buddy-buddy with Bob which makes me think Bob has connections within the company that your boss needs to cater to.

    13. Elle*

      I have to chime in as an HR Manager. You better believe I would want to know something like this, I would also be keenly interested in the part about the manager ignoring the issues/brushing you off. Others have helped with the phrasing to avoid burning bridges, I think you should use it.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I supervise a Bob right now. He has three more months to demonstrate that he can do the work in a timely manner, be respectful of co-workers, keep the phone off and not on his desk. The chill/bro attitude is hard to evaluate. Feel free to give advice.

    15. Nico m*

      I think you should either be bold and state the truth, or decline the exit interview entirely.

    16. TinyTim*

      Everyone has their own philosophy on exit interviews. Mine is to never, under any circumstances say anything that would come back on my manager. It’s hard to throw a co-worker under the bus without making your manager look bad. I protect my future reference at all costs. The only time I feel as though I “must” mention something is a black and white issue like theft, sexual harassment, etc. But that is more of a personal moral obligation.

      If I hadn’t already, I might tell my manager “FYI – Bob is a worthless piece of crap and the primary reason we had to add a 3rd team member” but I wouldn’t put it in writing. My current manager has sort of a pre-exit interview when people on my team leave so they can tell him anything they don’t want to say to HR.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Re: protecting your manager,a nd the reference

        I think you can say, “My manager’s been understanding, but he hasn’t been able to actually do anything about it; maybe he thinks he can’t or something, or could use some backup.”

        Of course, you’re sort of at their mercy if they decide to dump it all on your boss, etc. (remembering a letter from earlier today).

        you can also say to HR, “it’s important to me that this conversation with you not damage my relationship with my soon-to-be-former boss, because he is a reference for me, and I need to be sure he doesn’t think I’m badmouthing him. I’m only telling you this because I think if he gets the support he needs, and can deal with this, it would be good for the company.”

    17. Chickaletta*

      This is not a personality clash, so I wouldn’t describe it that way (ie don’t say “Bob and I didn’t get along”.

      The real problem is that he’s costing the company, specifically

      A) work is not getting done
      B) the company is losing clients
      C) he is costing the company money because they’ve had to hire an additional employee to make up for his slack.
      D)the company is losing employees (you, and possibly Jane someday)

      Those three things should be enough for the company to care about fixing the Bob issue. Also let HR know that you and Jane have brought these things to the manager’s attention but he’s brushed it off. It’s time that someone besides your manager became aware of the issues Bob is creating.

    18. Azul*

      My two cents – recently I left my extremely toxic department because of a terrible boss. My coworker, similar to Jane, had already complained up the chain of command previously, but it was looking like my boss was untouchable. In my exit interview (and a second meeting with my boss’s boss), I said “what the hell”, and told them what had been going on. Like others have mentioned, the key is to remain calm and rational. Everything I said corroborated her own complaints (which was really helpful because boss often made it seem to others like coworker was incompetent in her own way), which bolstered the validity of my coworker’s complaint. Now they’re investigating the office and have put old boss on a PIP, and this was within a month of my leaving. This was also within academia, which is notorious for letting BS ride because “no one can be fired”. When word got back to me I was in complete shock and awe because I truly thought they would never do anything.

      Long story short: ultimately you know better than we do, but it’s very possible your claims may help corroborate Jane’s.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I also once saw things change because (I think, I don’t -know-) of some honest feedback in an exit interview. But when my subordinate left, I brought up the topic of his exit interview, and in talking w/ me about it, they were able to get corroboration about the specific issues over both of ours heads.

        And things changed afterward.

        So I’m more likely to be honest.

    19. TootsNYC*

      I think another way to frame this is “I see a problem in my department that is damaging the company, and I want to alert you to it so you can fix it. I have tried to fix it from inside the department, bringing it to boss, but it really hasn’t changed. It’s still damaging the department, and to be honest, it really is a significant factor in why I’m leaving. I’ve found it frustrating to work somewhere that I’m expected to pick up so much slack, and mop up so many messes from damaged relationships, etc., because my colleague is doing such a disrespectful and irresponsible job. I like to be proud not only of my own work but of the place I’m working, and I can’t really be proud of working in XYZ Dept. at LMNO Company anymore.
      “But mostly I want to share this so that you can fix it, because the problem is going to keep damaging LMNO’s reputation, with its customers as well as its employees, long after I’m gone.”

      “I want to help you by giving you information you don’t have”–that general approach.

    20. Brett*

      Don’t count on there even being a place in an exit interview to say something.
      My last one consisted of a check the box survey, where there was a handful of options under reason for leaving and no blanks to expand on your answers.
      The only part I talked to someone about in person was whether or not I had been discriminated against during my employment and if that was a factor in leaving (which the interviewer then put into writing for me to sign).

    21. Fallow*

      Thank you all a hundred times over for your advice on this! An update:

      I went to my exit interview and said what I wanted to say off the record. My HR manager was shocked and asked me to let her share it with the CEO. I agreed, and once I got back to my desk I got a call from the director of administration wanting to know the situation in detail. She said she would protect me at all costs, since she wants to see me come back in the future, and will talk to the CEO about the future impacts on Jane with Bob’s continued employment. She said Bob will be placed immediately on a PIP and said she was so sorry to see me go on these circumstances.

      I left my last day feeling energized and very positive about the situation. I informed Jane that HR will be speaking with her next week and she said she would keep me up to date with what happens. I hope Bob can get his act together.

      1. Alston*

        That sounds like it was about as good of an outcome as you could have hoped for. Nicely done!

      2. CM*

        I guess your company has good HR people! I’m glad it worked out and that what you said made a difference. (Plus I bet Jane will love you forever!)

  3. NarrowDoorways*

    Mutli-pronged question I’d love outside thoughts on.

    I’m an editor, working with many outside writers. One—I’ll call Paige—doesn’t get paid by my company, but does get paid by an outside company to contribute her work. Unfortunately, that means Paige often turns in material that is promotional. We don’t accept promotional pieces. My previous boss (who I’ve replaced) had spoken to Paige about this issue.

    Paige turned in a piece recently that wasn’t just slightly promotional—it was basically an advertisement for the company that pays her. I spent ages, far beyond what’s normally expected, editing it. When the material hit the desk of my company’s chief operating officer—I’ll call her Mandy—she was not pleased. Mandy said it was still wildly promotional and told me if it happens again, she’ll pull it from the publication. I agreed, apologized, and mentioned I’d already been planning to email Paige about the issue.

    So I emailed Paige’s assistant with the final version, which I do every time Paige contributes. I have basically no interaction with Paige, and she’s previously ignored my emails until I go through her (many rotating) assistant(s). I explained all the editing and mentioned I’d been told it would be pulled if it happened again. I thanked her and said I was looking forward to the next piece.

    Paige did not react well. She emailed Mandy, copying me, and raged that I was rude to email that to her assistant, she deserved a direct phone call, and she’s been doing this for years so she knows perfectly well what material is acceptable. I think Mandy mostly backed me up. My boss cautioned me to handle Paige extra gently, be more careful with my tone, and not “over-share” in the future. I’m having a meeting with Mandy Monday.

    I…don’t like this. I strongly disagree I “over-shared.” If this had happened again and the story was pulled, Paige would have been just as livid, probably. Past discussions about not accepting promotional material hasn’t gotten through to her, as she keeps doing it, which is why I thought showing potential consequences was important.

    Is it an option to disagree with Mandy? Obviously, I’ll follow Mandy’s preferences and call Paige from now on, but 1) was I wrong to share consequences? and 2) can I express disagreement on the conclusion that this woman needs to be handled especially gently? It’s important to be professional, but at the same time I feel like being the “bigger person” means I cant stand up for myself to Paige. It was her behavior that wasn’t acceptable. She isn’t a client and, in fact, depends on us publishing her work to get paid elsewhere.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Does Paige’s assistant(s) have any interaction with the process? So you told the assistant what the issues were with the article so she could pass this onto Paige? Is that right? The poor assistant, if so!

      I think I would’ve set up a meeting with Paige and explained what you need to see from her i.e non-promotional articles.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        The sad thing is, the only time I’ve ever spoken to Paige on the phone was immediately prior to her turning in the piece before this one. It was basically her going on about knowing non-promotional material isn’t acceptable….

        I do feel for her assistants. I’ve seen some forwarded emails in the past between her and them. Talk about abrupt and rude. I’d be livid if my boss interacted with me like she does with her assistants.

    2. Mando Diao*

      Is it possible that the outside company is giving Paige directions that differ from yours? I think you might need to eventually speak with them; Paige is their employee, not yours, and Paige might not be the one at fault here.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        It’s tricky. Paige has worked with us for the last couple years. She doesn’t actually always work with the same company that she writes in the voice of. She is a marketer and contacts companies using this column as a way to get their executive’s voices into industry discussions. Basically for them to become more visible in the industry.

        I do believe the company she’s currently working with leaned on her quite a bit to send me promotional material, but after her longtime experience with us, she knew it wasn’t acceptable and did it anyway.

          1. NarrowDoorways*

            WHAT A GOOD QUESTION! I LOVE THIS QUESTION! THERE IS NO GOOD REASON BECAUSE SHE IS AWFUL.

            She is replaceable. Maybe she should have thought of that BEFORE she was rude to me in the face of constructive, extremely mild criticism.

      2. Manders*

        Yes, I think this is an important thing to clear up. NarrowDoorways, is your company paying someone (the company that Paige works for, maybe?) to write this content, or are you looking for free articles? In my experience, if you work for a place that needs a whole lot of free content, a lot of that content that gets submitted is going to be promoting something.

        1. NarrowDoorways*

          We have a mixture of paid and free. She is specifically one of 8 people on rotation for an unpaid column, but of them, none of the other writers get paid by an outside company and none of the others have ever turned in promotional material.

          Perhaps that’s the key. The minute she contacted other companies to write it for pay, we couldn’t avoid the promotional issue. Well, this just add to my desire and reason to fire her.

          1. Manders*

            Yep, I think that’s your problem. If you’ve got people writing for free, those people are much more likely to have some ulterior motive for writing that column. Some people may have motives that align with what your company wants to see in their articles, like promoting a cause they care about. But if you open the door to marketers, they’re gonna market, because that’s their job.

            The real problem is that she’s a lousy marketer. A good content marketer should be able to write an informative article that doesn’t read like ad copy, and the common sense to remain on good terms with her contacts. Either someone above her at her own company is leaning on her to blast promotional materials out to everyone, or she doesn’t have the tact she needs to represent them. I think it’s time to cut her loose.

              1. Manders*

                Some other considerations that might prevent a problem like Paige in the future: if Paige is allowed to link to external sites in her articles, are you making sure those links are nofollow? Are your submission guidelines posted very clearly, and are all new columnists made aware of them? Are you able to reach out in advance to people who might be interested in writing articles for you, whose causes are less commercial than Paige’s? Is it possible to reprint articles that have already appeared on small-time blogs? Could you wrangle an addition to the budget so no one’s working for free, even if the payment for this particular column is small? Does your organization have a system in place for handling press releases and other promotional content? Could you tell marketers that *they* must pay *you* to publish blatantly promotional content, but writing about a topic without pushing a specific company is free?

                Unpaid writing opportunities are always going to attract marketers. Your company needs to have a clear policy in place for dealing with them before they become a problem. I also would stay away from language like “fire” when talking with Paige–you’re not firing her because you never paid her for her work, you’re just not accepting her articles anymore.

                1. NarrowDoorways*

                  Naw, I’d never actually say fire to her or anyone here. But it makes me happier to say it to myself.

                  There’s no way I’d ever get this to be paid, but if anything, I’m finding more and more reasons to start looking for new columnists. If anything, most of the content has gotten stale. The writers have been doing this for years and have fallen into that “comfortable” setting where they aren’t trying as hard.

                  I’ve spent most of the year finding new paid writers as the old ones rotated the same half dozen sources for every story. It was easier so they stopped bothering to do new research.

            2. Turtle Candle*

              Yes: while I don’t think it’s good to keep sending inappropriate material when you’ve been told it’s inappropriate, I do know that if the company that was paying my wages said ‘do it this way’ and the company that wasn’t paying my wages said ‘no, don’t do it this way,’ I’d listen to Company A. Because they’re the ones paying for my work, whereas the other company is getting it free.

              It also sounds like she’s just not a great marketer, yeah. But there’s an inherent conflict of interest here, really, at the end. It’s IME a fairly normal tradeoff when you’re getting unpaid written work.

              1. Manders*

                Well said. I’m not going to start in on my whole rant about not paying writers when you want high quality, non-promotional work, but if you absolutely can’t pay your writers, the people who are interested in writing for you are more likely to 1) accept money for creating these articles some other way, like Paige, or 2) put less time and effort into cranking out that content, like your other writers.

                Again, if your publication is online, you gotta check your links. Switching to nofollow links if you haven’t already may go a long way towards fixing your marketer problem. Link building is a very hot topic now that Google Penguin is penalizing spammy backlinks. A lot of marketers are reaching out to every publication with follow links that will take their work right now.

                1. NarrowDoorways*

                  Oh yeah, trust me, I freelance as an editor and a shocking number of people expect you to do it for free because you like it, not because it’s work you deserve to be paid for. I completely dislike doing something similar to writers.

                  It’s slightly off because I work in the pharmaceutical industry, and quite a lot of execs are interested in broadcasting their thoughts to others within the industry. I think, as they’re not professional writers and mostly want to discuss their issues outside of the conference setting, they don’t ever make the connection that this is something others are paid for.

                  We’re print, so the link issue haven’t come up, fortunately.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I agree with Carrie; I think it’s time to meet directly with Paige. Also, I’m confused–Mandy is not your boss, correct? And she’s the one who got upset about the promotional material (as well she should, if your company doesn’t accept it, why should she waste her time on it?), but your BOSS told you to handle Paige gently, correct?

      Is your boss friends with Paige or afraid of her or something? Because this is weird.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        Well, ugh, it’s complicated. My boss and Mandy were at a conference when everything blew up, so they discussed the issue together. My boss came back from the conference and shared Mandy’s expectations with me. Mandy isn’t yet back from the conference, though I have a meeting with her Monday.

        No one is friends with Paige, lol.

    4. neverjaunty*

      This really sounds like your boss not having the spine to tell you that Paige is in fact a problem; it’s easier to dump unhelpful, mealy-mouthed feedback on you. This is useless to you and puts you in a completely unfair position: you’re expected to enforce certain guidelines and to give Paige feedback on them, but then take the blame if Paige throws a fit.

      I’d put your boss (Mandy?) on the spot for specifics: “Going forward, can you give me some guidance on what language you would like me to use with Paige if this happens again? Would you prefer that I stick to a phone call as Paige has requested?” If Boss has better ideas on the right way to handle Paige, surely she can share those ideas. If (as I suspect) this is just Boss trying to avoid conflict with Paige, then Boss is hardly going to be in a position to say “I don’t know what’s the right or wrong approach until after you do it.” And if she does, look for another job.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        I think this makes sense. Any other way I could have done things would almost certainly gotten a negative reaction from Paige. In my meeting with Mandy Monday, I’m going to bring up other ways I could have gone about informing Paige of the issue and what I think would likely have happened. (Bad things. She is full of bad things.)

        I don’t like that my boss and Mandy feel I had a “tone” in my original email. I was very polite, and I’d had other people read it over. The content itself is why Paige got angry and I don’t think my word choices would have changed that.

        Now my boss wants to re-read all of my emails to make sure I’m saying things as sugary-sweet as possible, which–ugh, but fine. It still really bothers me that the onus is on me to put out fires when I think this woman isn’t in the position to start any. She’s 100% replaceable. There’s not contract or financial implications on my end.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Why does your boss feel it’s so important to placate Paige?

          And actually, maybe that’s the solution – before you email Paige, you forward the emails to Boss for revision. Then Boss can hardly complain about the content of the emails.

          2. NarrowDoorways*

            To be fair, my boss is amazing at emails.

            But I never usually email Paige things. I email her assistant. I feel like I should always email Paige now, in case it’s content she somehow disagrees with.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you can try to figure out why your boss is so interested in stringing Paige along when so much of her work does not fit your criteria. I would stress with both your boss and Mandy that MOST of Paige’s work is promotional in nature. Make sure they understand and ask them how to proceed.

      The next thing I would do is ask your boss and Mandy for a set of written guidelines for materials that will be accepted and used. Ideally, these guidelines would spell out most of the things that Paige is doing wrong, but the guidelines should be something that are useful to anyone who wants to submit articles to you.
      Then, get the guidelines to each one of your contributors, by either your boss, Mandy or yourself sending the guidelines to them. Again ideally, someone who is NOT you should be sending them out.

        1. MillersSpring*

          I disagree about asking your boss for guidelines or asking for wording for your emails to Paige. You’re a talented writer/editor, so you should be drafting these emails and guidelines. Also, I your next 1:1 with your boss, I’d print out this email and ask for clarification about which phrases were problematic in tone. Also, IIWM, I wouldn’t email Paige’s assistant again. Communicate with her directly. Kill her with kindness, too. Good luck.

      2. Lily in NYC*

        I like the idea of asking your boss why she wants to coddle this woman. And definitely explain that you can never reach her and always go through her assistant and make the point that Paige is reacting to the message, not the delivery. I am angry on your behalf. I can’t stand non-confrontational bosses who will do anything to avoid their own discomfort.

      3. TootsNYC*

        also–have someone you can suggest as an alternative to fill the holes in your lineup. So you can just gradually dial back.

        is there any reason your boss and Mandy particularly care if it’s Paige that does this stuff?

        1. NarrowDoorways*

          I brought up an alternate to Mandy when a different columnist kept going on month-long sabbaticals to India and skipping his scheduled time. She’s just…weirdly resistant to any and all change.

          I can’t figure out her attachment and Mandy certainly complains about them enough herself, so…

    6. Anon Moose*

      Sounds like the main error was sending that feedback to her assistant when it should have been emailed to her directly and separately. The assistant doesn’t need or probably want to know!

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        Is that out of the norm? I guess I assumed that’s what assistants were for? If one person is your primary contact, assistant or not, why wouldn’t you use them?

        I suppose I can see the argument not to if sending confidential or sensitive information. Maybe the disconnect is that I didn’t see it as a sensitive topic and I believed the issue to be easily corrected, whereas Paige is hurt or feels a deep need to save face in front of her assistant?

        1. Carrie in Scotland*

          No, that’s not what assistants are for! I’d HATE to give critical feedback to my manager/someone I was working for, especially if they were like Paige. What I would’ve done was ask the assistant to pass on your message that you needed to talk to Paige.

          I feel for that poor assistant, that cannot have been an easy conversation to have, even if she was just passing on the info, it’s very…shoot the messenger-y :(

          1. Turtle Candle*

            Yes; it puts the assistant in an awkward spot, but also, as a writer I really hate getting secondhand feedback if I can avoid it. I’ve had too many situations where the message got garbled or lost entirely in translation. It makes sense to have the message be, “Please let Paige know that I need to speak to her about her article.”

            1. NarrowDoorways*

              I see what you’re saying, though in my time as a department underling, I’ve definitely received emails about corrections that I forwarded on to my boss. I guess I never thought to much about it. It wasn’t my work, it was something she needed to handle. I was more thinking, “this chunk it what the assistant always needs, and if there’s anything else here she doesn’t, she’d just forward it on to her boss.”

              I would find an email saying I needed to speak with someone else suuuuper awkward. If I felt I needed to talk to someone….I’d talk to them. The issue here is that I DIDN’T think I needed to talk to her boss, which is why I didn’t go out of my way to do so.

              Ugh, actually, Paige did something like that to me once. The only time I’ve ever spoken to her on the phone was preceded by a bunch of emails with “We need to speak” in the subject box and the whole message just saying “call me.” Rude and ominous. What was worse was Paige had MY number but I didn’t have hers. I sent 3 emails saying that and each response from her had the same rude subject line and a mangled number in the email body that never worked. She finally called me after 5 days of me re-stating she could call me any time and that every number she gave me wasn’t right.

              1. TootsNYC*

                well, small corrections are one thing.

                A major message (“you have completely missed the mark and your work with us is in jeopardy”) is something completely else.

                Of course, if you have no other reliable way of reaching her, you might be stuck, but you really should have the assistant relay only a “this is important; call her” message.

                1. Anon Moose*

                  +1 This isn’t a run of the mill correction. This is a broad critique/ ongoing issue and an assistant may feel uncomfortable passing it on. You really need to deliver it yourself if you want the message to get through.

                2. Turtle Candle*

                  Right: I’m fine with getting small and relatively objective corrections (typos, “please use X style for commas,” “please incorporate information from this more recent press release,” etc.) secondhand, but something as sweeping as “your approach to this document is so wrong that I had to spend hours editing; this is a major issue that may cause us to be unable to work together” is another matter.

                  Also, it doesn’t have to be an ominous-but-vague “WE NEED TO SPEAK: call me.” It can be “I have some concerns about the direction of these pieces and would like to talk about it directly.”

          2. WellRed*

            I’m an editor as well and I can’t imagine going through an assistant to give someone feedback on writing. That said, Paige may need to go. We all have house styles and writers need to follow them.

        2. Anon Moose*

          God. No. You are presumably sending things to the assistant for archival purposes. By including critisism you are getting in between this person and their boss. The assistant probably has no power over the content of the pieces, so why would they have to know? And clearly you have upset Paige which affects the assistant. Paige may see it as disrespect that you’ve taken the decision about what to loop her staff in about away from her.
          I always was taught praise should be public and criticism private. If you’d given the feedback in person in an office with an assistant, wouldn’t you close the door? Why would email be any less awkward?

        3. TootsNYC*

          I agree; it’s out of the norm to give that sort of feedback through them. The message to the assistant would be “Please have Paige call me; we have some important feedback on her work that she needs to hear.”

          It doesn’t matter if it’s sensitive; it’s something Paige should hear directly.

        4. MillersSpring*

          Yeah, assistants are not the appropriate channel for giving feedback and/or moderate to serious conversations about your relationship going forward. Also, Paige sounds like she’s questioning why the “department underling” is giving her feedback–note how she went way over your head to complain.

          You have valid concerns about the quality of Paige’s submissions, but it seems like your boss and grandboss have valid concerns about how you handled it.

    7. Observer*

      I think you should have both emailed and called Paige directly, and then said what you said to the assistant – ie that her work needs to be completely non-promotional, and that the next time it happens it will not go in.

      The issue I see here is not that you clarified the consequences, but that you did it through the assistant. That’s not fair to the assistant and I think there is an argument to be made that it’s really not the business of the assistant.

      Also, there are many ways to say the same thing. Given her sensitivity, it pays to use a more diplomatic way than less diplomatic way. If you chose to be blunt own up to it, and commit to being more diplomatic in the future. If you were as diplomatic as you could be while still being clear, bring the text of the email and ask what you should do differently next time.

      I realize that you may have already had your meeting with Mandy. How did it go?

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      I get 17 days of vacation, 12 days of personal time, 1 floating holiday (all used interchangeably), 5 days of carry-over, and 10 paid/set company holidays a year.

    2. Fallow*

      Old job was a PTO pool with 16 days a year for vaca/sick. New job is 12 days vacation and 10 sick I believe.

    3. TheIntern*

      In my previous direct care role (mental health agency) I earned 7.45 hours per 80 hour pay period. Up to 140 hours could be carried over annually and 80 hours could be paid out when you left.

    4. Collie*

      I get about five hours every pay period (two weeks) to use as either sick or vacation leave. Adds up to a little over 16 total days to use how I wish.

    5. CherryScary*

      10 days of vacation, 2 unexcused sick days (paid, no dr. note) 4 excused sick days (dr. note)

    7. KathyGeiss*

      Good question. I get 15 days vacation plus 2 floaters (to even out holidays that other provinces get that my province doesn’t get (in Canada)). We also get 1 volunteer day. Sick days aren’t spelled out. Essentially, you don’t come in when your sick and unless it becomes a problem or you abuse it, no one bats an eye.

      I’ve been working here for 4 years and in the industry for 8. In 2018, I get another 5 days of vacay.

    8. sparklealways*

      Our company recently switch to an “unlimited PTO” policy. Before that it was 16-25 total days (1 bank for sick/vacation), depending on length of service. I have mixed feelings on the new policy because it really depends on your boss. Luckily, I have one of the best managers in the world!

      1. Arielle*

        Ours is unlimited as well. I have a hard time with it because I’m the kind of person who feels guilty asking for time off, and I think I would feel more entitled to use PTO if I could see a specific amount of days allowed.

        1. Tomato Frog*

          I’ve thought about how I would deal with this, as a person with a lot of misplaced guilt but who also likes to visit her family. I think I would allot myself a number of vacation days at the high end of typical and just behave as if that’s the amount of vacation time I have (workplace culture permitting, of course).

      2. talking backwards*

        We have an “open leave” policy as well. Has its benefits and drawbacks — most people don’t take much time off. Luckily my boss is also great and take a good amount of time off herself, so I am able to take time when I want/need.

      3. Charlotte*

        I’m in a small, private company with unlimited sick and vacation days as well. I took about 25 days off last year including federal holidays. The nice thing about it is that I have an end goal of working a certain amount of hours, and I can take vacation (mostly) how I want as long as I manage my work to meet those goals. I do end up working during vacation on occasion, though, being in a client-service-based business. I have great supervisors who are supportive of taking time off to recharge, so that is also key.

          2. Aella*

            Can I ask how/when you got into that field? It’s what I’m looking at, and my applications are being turned down before the stage where they give you feedback.

            2. Dangerfield*

              My comment is in moderation, but I’m happy to answer questions and have given you an email address in case I forget to look back at this in a timely manner!

              1. Dangerfield*

                Sigh. And I just realised I forget to retype the question that affects the answer in this comment. It’s been a long week. Are you looking to get into administration or academia?

          3. Caroline*

            I’m also in British academia and get 29 days PTO plus 8 national holidays with no specified limit on sick leave. I also get to flex my hours. It’s awesome :)

    10. super anon*

      4 weeks of vacation and 6 months of sick time that is in a seperate pool from vacation. I work at a university.

        1. super anon*

          Nope – it’s true! We also get a year of mat leave, berevement leave, and other assorted leaves. Vacations scales too, so after 5 years of service you get 5 weeks, etc with a max of 8 weeks. We can also carry over 2 weeks of vacation each year.

            1. super anon*

              I don’t understand it either tbh. I’ve read that after you take a certain amount of days off in a row you may need to provide a doctor’s note, but my department doesn’t do that. I think the 6 months is also so you could take a long term paid health leave? I’ve never had to use much of my sick leave so I’m not sure.

            2. Snow*

              I’m in the UK – where I work we technically get 6 months full pay and 6 months half pay sick but it isn’t like the US where your sick days are there to use up as part of your benefits. If you had a serious health crisis you would get that money. If you called out one week a month or every monday because you were ‘using up’ sick days to use up you’d probably end up on a PIP for absenteeism and let go. (Unless you had a disability that caused you to be ill on a cycle – that would be protected.)

            3. De*

              The way it works in Germany, you get fully paid by your employer for anything up to 6 weeks for one medical condition. If you are out for more than 6 weeks for the same thing health insurance takes over and pays 65 percent of your wages while your employer stops paying you (but you are still an employee). Maybe it works something like that, only with longer time.

          3. Vancouver Reader*

            That’s the only thing I miss about working at a university. Although now I’m at an elementary school, I guess we get way more time off. :)

    11. Charlotte Collins*

      I used to get a substantial amount of PTO. However, there was a restructure that included reclassifying my job. Now, at my next anniversary (17 years), I will only get one week of vacation and some sick time (which does accrue), as well as a couple personal days.

      One of our (fairly new) CEO’s goals is a “fully engaged workforce.” I am now fully engaged in looking for a new job.

      1. Callie*

        Ugh. 17 years and only 1 week of vacation is BS. I would be fully engaged in a job search too, if I were you.

    12. Sunflower*

      15 days PTO, 7 unplanned time off(any days taken with less than 24 hrs notice, can be for anything), 1 floating holiday, 2 emergency vacation days, 9 set paid holidays.

      1. Sunflower*

        I should also add I’m non-exempt and in the US. Exempt get the same except there is so sick time policy- just don’t abuse it is the rule.

    14. Gandalf the Nude*

      I currently get 80 hours of PTO per year (sick and vacation lumped together) and 9 static holidays.

      We get 120 hours after three years and 160 hours after ten, rolling over up to 40 hours each year.

    15. Karowen*

      I started accruing at the rate of 3 weeks per year, now that I’ve been with the organizations for awhile it’s 4 weeks per year. This is all encompassing – sick, vacation, personal, etc.

    16. Danae*

      In theory, I get 14 days a year vacation and…maybe one day sick time? Sick accrues so slowly (after a year here and taking no sick time I think I’m up to three hours accrued) that I’m not sure what the actual number is.

      In reality, PTO accrues with hours worked, and I have more 20 hour weeks than 40 hour weeks. Hooray for being paid by the billable hour.

      (This is far, far better than the jobs I’ve had for the last five years, which came with zero PTO or any other benefits, so I’m actually happy. Having an employer kick in for health insurance is also really nice!)

      1. RKB*

        Yup. I get to work on stat days, though. If I work both my jobs, both 8 hour shifts on stat days, I rake in almost $1000. So I’m not complaining.

    18. Bowserkitty*

      OldJob was more suited for people needing vacation time ASAP, NewJob is more suited for long-term.

      I had 20 days of PTO at OldJob (10 sick days, 3 personal, 3 floating, etc) and accrued vacation. NewJob you accrue from hire date and it’s unlimited sick days and I forget how many vacation but I think it maxes out at 380 hours. The accrual rate is pretty sweet for both categories.

      OldJob, after the big lay-off, did away with accrued time and switched everyone over to a flat 30 days.

    19. S0phieChotek*

      9 holidays, 1 floating day, no sick time (that is different than PTO), and after 3 month “introductory period” start accruing PTO (most people can only accrue about 120-160 PTO hours per year); max carry over of PTO from year to year is 5 days (40 hours)

    20. Amy M in HR*

      We receive PTO on an accrued basis, which works out for a full-time employee to 21 days a year, however, we must use PTO for the six major holidays and any days they may choose to close the office early (last year we closed early the day before Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve). PTO is to be used for vacation, personal and sick time, and we can only use it in 4 hour increments.

    21. Anonymous Educator*

      I get 17 paid holidays (inflexible dates) and 10 vacation days (flexible dates). I don’t remember the exact number of sick days… I think it’s 8.

    22. Ad Astra*

      – 10 days (80 hours) vacation
      – 10 sick days (80 hours)
      – Up to 2 hrs/week of “personal time” (used for appointments, going to the DMV, taking your car to the shop, etc; not supposed to be used every week)
      – Office closes at noon on Christmas Eve and re-opens the Monday after New Year’s Day, so that’s about 5 more days off

      I work at a business that deals with billable time and employs a decent number of non-exempt employees, which is why there’s so much focus on hours rather than days.

    23. ThatGirl*

      16 PTO days, 2 floating holidays, that includes sick time, plus bereavement time as needed and 8 holidays.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Oh, and that’s use it or lose it; you also get more PTO after 5 years and 10 years of employment.

    25. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Current Job: 15 vacation days, 5 sick days, 3 personal days, and like 9 paid holidays.

      Old Job: 20 vacation days, unlimited sick days, and I think 9 paid holidays.

    26. Anonymosity*

      Exjob–two weeks a year (80 hours), awarded in January. This job–5 hours accrual each pay period and all benefits started at 30 days (!!!!!), including that. I think that the longer you’re here, the more you get each pay period. We also get to go up to 40 hours in the hole on PTO, and then we have to earn it back before it starts accruing again. The only bad part is that at fiscal year end in June, we can only roll over 40 hours. This is to encourage us to actually take our PTO, and we rarely get pushback when we do, but it’s hard when you only get 5 hours every two weeks to build it back up again. We also have the standard holidays every year (Christmas, NY, etc.) and we get a few federal days too because our clients take them off.

    27. Jennifer M.*

      Just accepted a new job. For the first 36 months I get 15 days/year for vacation/sick/personal time plus 10 federal holidays. Not the worst I’ve ever heard of, but probably the worst I’ve had. In my mind I break it into 2 weeks vacation and 5 sick days. I usually take about 2 sick days/year due to actual illness, but I have problematic teeth and use sick time for dental appointments. I may need to switch dentists to someone near the new office to reduce transit time. I typically take one 1-week vacation plus 2-3 three-day weekends per year. I need to be careful with the leave since we are planning a big family Christmas in 2017 that could take some time.

    28. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I get 25 days of pooled PTO per year in addition to 9 0r 10 paid holidays (I’ll have to check later), but that’s the maximum for our company by seniority.

    30. NoProfitNoProblems*

      Unlimited paid time off! In practice most people don’t go over two or three weeks in a year, but it’s so so nice to know that you can take sick days when you need to or embark on an impromptu three-day trip somewhere.

    31. GG*

      Each year I get 10 Vacation days, 5 Sick days, 8 Personal hours, and 9 Holidays. The first year I actually got 5 of the Vacation days after 6 months, and the other 5 when I hit my 1-year mark. At 5 years Vacation time goes up to 15 days, and at 10 years 20 days.

    32. danr*

      My old company had 13 official holidays off plus two to three more days that were given by the company, usually one day before or after Christmas, sometimes two, and a before or after July 4th. I had maxed out vacation at 5 weeks and 12 sickdays were allotted per year and those accumulated. Vacation was theoretically “use or lose” , but not really.

    33. matcha123*

      PTO: 20 days
      “Summer vacation” (aka obon): 5 days
      Care (for a parent, for example): 6 months
      “Sick” (basically if I’m hospitalized): 70 days
      Child-rearing: until age 1
      Other “special” time off for marriage (my own), birth, taking care of a sick kid, bereavement, and some others that aren’t written down (probably a day each month to use for period related pain).

      I work in Japan and “sick” days are not for colds, but rather for surgery or cancer treatments or something serious like that.
      I have 20 days a year I can take off, and most? all? of the unused days carry over. Most people do not take off 20 days in a year.

      1. matcha123*

        And typical Japanese holidays.
        I get about 5 days off at the end of the year and whatever holidays that fall on weekdays, such as Golden Week.

    34. Beezus*

      I get 17 days of vacation (because I’ve been here 10 years; I started with 10 and have been bumped up 2-3 days every few years), 11 paid holidays, and no defined sick leave (if I am sick, I am just not here, I don’t use PTO – rules are different if it rises to the level of FMLA).

      Vacation time rolls over, and I can bank up to 2 years’ worth before I stop accruing it.I currently have just shy of 4 weeks in my bank. I can cash out vacation time, too – there are limits on how much per year, a minimum number of hours at a time, and a minimum I have to leave in my bank when cashing out, but I’ve done it a time or two.

    35. Dalia524*

      24 days vacation, 20 days sick leave, both accrued bimonthly, and at least 12 paid holidays per year. They’ve bumped us up from 1 week to 2 weeks off for Christmas/New Year’s the past couple of years, which is really nice. I work at a US university.

    36. ACA*

      1.75 vacation days accrued per month (will go up to 2 next year!) with a cap of 24 accrued at one time, 1 sick day accrued per month, 8 federal holidays, plus the week between Christmas and New Years.

    37. EA*

      20 days vacation (Carries over, up to a max of 25 days total in the bank … once you hit that, you stop accruing)
      10 sick days
      4 floating holidays
      6 company holidays

      (I have 11 years with my current company … started out with 10 days of vacation, and 3 floating holidays)

    38. Gene*

      I’m a municipal employee, been with the city for 25 years, so I’m maxed out on vacation earning. I get 200 hours of vacation per year and can carry up to 400 hours on the books. New employees in my bargaining unit earn 80 hours per year and can accumulate 160. For sick leave, I get about 100 hours per year and can accumulate up to 960 hours. Vacation and sick leave is accumulated each pay period. 10 holidays and two floating holidays per year, no carry over.

      On separation in can have up to 160 hours vacation and 10% off my accumulated sick leave paid.

    39. LQ*

      US – gvt (not fed)
      10 paid holidays
      1 floating holidays
      12 vacation days per year (roll over up to about 30 days) – after 5 years it goes up to about 16/year
      12 sick days per year (infinite roll over) – also goes up to about 16/year after 5 years

    40. Jadelyn*

      10 days vacation to start, 15 days after 2 years’ service, 20 after 6 years’ service. 12 days of sick for all employees. Both are prorated according to your FTE – so a part-time employee working 20 hrs/week would receive 6 sick days, etc.

    41. NacSacJack*

      If I remember correctly, 20 days PTO to start, then 5 days at 5 years, 3 days at 10 years, 2 days at 15 years, no days at 20 years and 1 day at 25 years. Something like that. I have 30 days at less than 20 years. We’re expected to use PTO for sick leave.

    42. WIncredulous*

      I’m part time. I get nothing. However I can basically call in whenever, since I’m not paid.

    43. Dip-lo-mat*

      6 hours of annual leave and 4 hours of sick leave per pay period. I can roll over up to 240 hours annually when domestic, 360 when overseas.

    44. LawCat*

      We have a choice between PTO or vacation plus sick leave. You acquire less PTO than vacation plus sick leave combined per mont (e.g.,11 hours PTO, or 7 hours vacation and 8 hours sick leave) but you can use PTO for any purpose and it can cash out when you leave employment. Sick leave cannot be cashed out though vacation can. I did vacation and sick for two years and then switched. I use my banked sick leave when I get sick.

    45. TAR*

      Currently contracting at a Fortune 500 company. My agency gives me 40 hours PTO for the year and absolutely no sick time despite being in a state that requires it. (If you’re a contractor on a W-2 apparently the law doesn’t apply?) I am currently sick but have no choice but to be here and got snarky comments about it.

      The job I had before that was 10 days PTO, up to 15 after 4 years there. No sick time. (Different state at the time. Didn’t required it.) I had an emergency operation two days before the end of the calendar year a few years back when I was out of PTO and my boss made me make up the time I was in the hospital (despite pulling down countless to 60-70 hour weeks) so no one would think it was “unfair.”

      Do I just suck that badly that I only get these crappy jobs? :-/

      1. Danae*

        That’s pretty much the contracting game, I’m afraid. I’ve been a contractor for the last seven years, and until I joined my current company benefits were nearly non-existent–and if I had them, they were very grudgingly given.

        For me, the ability to leave work at work, not play office politics, and not have to spend six months of the year going through the review cycle is worth it.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I contracted for 5 years before getting hired “for real” and had zero benefits – no paid holidays, no PTO, nothing.

        And my previous jobs had 2 weeks (10 days) PTO, no sick time. So neither of those seem crappy to me, even though they’re not great compared to what others may get.

        1. TAR*

          I should note that the previous gig WAS full time, but yes – I’m happy to have even 5 days PTO since I’m not allowed to work on company holidays.

    46. AVP*

      5 days vacation, unlimited sick days to be used responsibly (I usually take 3 per year tops).

      I also get some comp time that I use as vacation days later in the year.

    47. AVP*

      5 days vacation, unlimited sick days to be used responsibly (I usually take 3 per year tops).

      I also get some comp time that I can use as vacation days later in the year.

    48. fposte*

      For vacation, 24 days with some rollover that I don’t remember the rules of, so I usually start the year with 48 days; sick days, 25 days, 12 of which can rollover. It does look like administration can request longer sick leave for an employee, up to half a year, but I have no idea if that ever actually happens. (State university.)

    49. Elkay*

      25 days plus option to buy another 5 and 8 bank holidays. I can carry over 5 from the previous year too. No limit on sick time.

    51. Cambridge Comma*

      30 days of leave, 10 official holidays, up to 10 days time off in lieu, 10 days of uncertified sick leave but unlimited sick leave with doctor’s note.

    52. Janet*

      Fed employee: 6 hours vacation & 4 hours sick leave/pay period (2 weeks). Unlimited accumulation of sick leave and annual rollover of 240 hours of vacation time.

    53. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      New hires get 17 days of PTO. This is my 5th year here so I get 22 days.

    54. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      I’m starting a new job on Monday! the PTO they offered was 2 wks vacation, 1 wk sick (I think the sick days can roll over indefinitely). I thought it was nice that they start accruing as soon as you start instead of after the probationary period, but cannot be used for the first 90 days.

      My sister recently started a job and they don’t have any vacation or sick time for the first YEAR! I thought that was pretty terrible, but she needed a job and she likes the work.

    55. praise hands emoji*

      15 sick days, 15 vacation days, 14 holidays (13 set + 1 floater, though you can actually float all of them) and 3-5 personal days, I forget exactly, plus the week between Christmas and New Year’s off with pay. This is to start; sick time accrues/rolls over up to 60 days I think, and you accrue more vacation time as well but it’s unclear to me exactly how it works–I was/am so thrilled with the amount of PTO I have now after a job with no benefits that I haven’t bothered figuring out the details yet!

    56. StudentAffairsProfessional*

      I get 26 days PTO (vacation/personal/sick leave) and 11 paid holidays. We can cash out 70 hours (~9 days) once every year if we want to. I have never taken advantage of this but thinking about it, I should! I never use all my vacation time. We can roll over up to 39 days, anything more than that is “use it or lose it.” Most of our holidays are towards the end of the year – I don’t get Labor Day off or any of the bank holidays like Columbus Day, President’s Day or MLK day. but we do get the day before AND the day after Thanksgiving, and December 23-25 as paid holidays. I work at a state university.

    57. Mallory Janis Ian*

      I get 12 hours per month (18 days per year) for vacation/personal, eight hours per month (8 days per year) for sick leave, and 14 paid holidays. We are closed between Christmas and New Year’s, and if any of those days are not covered by holiday pay, we are allowed to work overtime in December to cover the hours so that we don’t have to use our vacation/personal hours for it.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Duh, 8 hours per month = twelve sick days per year. Don’t trust my math on converting hour/month into days per year.

      2. Mallory Janis Ian*

        And I forgot the 8 hours of “children’s educational activities”, which I think should be made into a more general something (volunteer hours or some such) because all people have commitments whether or not they have children.

    59. StudentPilot*

      19 vacation days, 15 sick days, 5 family related (if kids/husband/parents are sick or have an appointment) 1 volunteer day and 1 personal day.

      Next year I get an additional 5 vacation days.

    60. Lily in NYC*

      5 weeks vacation plus 4 floating holidays. I think I get 10 sick days, not sure. And I get to sell back up to unused vacation days every December, which I love.

    61. Kyrielle*

      Previous job (with over 10 years with the company): 4 weeks of vacation, 9 holidays, and 6 sick days per year. (It used to be 10, but then we got purchased and they cut it.) I will note that new hires started with only 2 weeks of vacation, but the same holidays and sick time.

      Current job: 9 holidays, I think? And unlimited PTO/flex time, at manager’s discretion. Their old policy before they changed to this one (and before I joined) used to be 24 days of combined PTO, so I’m trying to land in approximately that ballpark.

    62. Z*

      10 vacation days and five sick days. Sick days can carry over, we can carry a max of (I think) 25 days. I think starting in January I move up to 15 vacation days, and that’s where we max out.

      Yes, I am considering leaving my position because of their stingy vacation day policy.

    63. anonnymoose*

      For first 5 years of service, 15 days per year (accrued throughout the year), for personal use or sick days, plus a few floating holidays and ~8 paid holidays. After that it’s up 5 days every 5 years, I believe. We can have at most 2x annual amount.

      But since MA enacted that law about sick days, we get 10 days for personal/vacation use and 5 sick days. So now that’s only a max of 20 days stored. The sick days can also be carried over for a maximum of 10 and it’s unclear at this point if HR is being flexible about sick days being used for personal/vacation too. I don’t understand why they didn’t just leave it the way it was.

    64. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Old job was 18 days vacay, 6 days PTO that then got combined into a giant 24-day pool. But since I live in a state that does not require employers to cash out vacation, my company was really generous with it.

      My current job is 8 days for your first two years (and you can carry up to 180 hours) . With sick leave we earn a day every month and there is no limit for carry over. This is also the first job where as a full-time exempt employee, I earn compensatory time that is tracked and monitored. We also get 12 holidays + one floating holiday.

    65. INTP*

      15 days cumulative PTO (prorated at 6.4 hours/day because I work 32 hours), plus a day each for a birthday and a professional development or volunteering day (my boss is lenient about the use of both of those, it’s basically 2 days), and my division does our bonuses in the form of bonus hours (about 8 days per year). Part time employees can either use those as extra PTO or tack the hours onto a paycheck to total up to 40 hours for extra money.

    66. 39281*

      I get 11 holidays off, 30 days of vacation, 7 uncertified sick days (no doctor’s note needed) and up to 20 certified (doctor’s note needed) sick days. After that, I think you have to take a leave of absence. The vacation rolls over (up to 60 days) and gets paid out when you leave, while the sick leave starts over again each year. It’s super generous!

      The culture makes it hard to take days off for more than one or two days at a time, it’s frowned upon to use all of your uncertified sick leave, as many people just use it as vacation. After 2 years, I have about 20 days of vacation saved, but no plans for more than a few Mondays or Fridays off every few weeks.

    67. animaniactoo*

      15 days PTO (used to be 16, but they dropped one when they went from specified 10 vacation, 4 sick, and 2 personal days), and this year is 13 paid holidays (some years it’s 10, some years it’s 15).

    68. Always Anon*

      Nonprofit.

      30 days of PTO, plus the week between Xmas and New Years. After 10 years with the same organization. New employees start with 20 days of PTO.

    69. Cruciatus*

      I earn 18 vacation days over the course of a year, for the first 10 years (12 hours a month). I’m using one today! We earn 12 sick days a year (8 hours a month), we earn 1 personal day a year. I don’t really get the personal day. Do you just use it like a vacation day? Are there different expectations to use it? We get PTO between Christmas and New Year’s Day and have 5 other paid holidays off.

    70. DL*

      State University – these are are for 12-mo faculty and researchers (also staff with more >10 years).
      Vacation – 21 days (14 hours/mo); up to 45 days roll-over annually and pay out when you leave
      Sick – 12 days (8 hrs/mo)
      Holidays – 12
      Plus usually a couple of bonus snow days.

    71. Anxa*

      I work for a public community college.

      We have quite a few days where school is closed for holidays and academic breaks. I pretty much have 3 weeks off around Christmas which is good because my family lives 500 miles away. I can also travel in the summer. Of course that’s theoretical, because I can rarely really afford to go.

      We can call out whenever we’re sick. I don’t think anyone has gotten any flak for it. We have to be present to do our job, it’s not at all a work from home kind of a thing, so our absence is pretty inconvenient, but since our service is free to our patrons, I think it allows us a little more freedom for cancelling appointments if we can’t get coverage. Same for personal time, we just have to mark it on a calendar. There’s no policy as far as I know for how much you can take.

      We have no PTO, whether we call out or whether school closes.

    72. Auntie J*

      56 days paid time off per year (31 vacation, 12 sick, 13 set holidays).

      This is at a not-for-profit college.

    73. wanderer*

      I get 20 vacation days, 14 statutory holidays, 3 non-emergency family days, two additional days off between Christmas and New Year’s for a total of 39 days. Plus an unspecified number of sick days (not to be abused or you will be red flagged by HR, after a certain number of days a doctor’s note is required). We also get (separate) time for jury duty and bereavement leave. I work in a unionized environment at a university in Canada.

    74. De Minimis*

      Really generous where I work, we used to be part of a university system and though we’re now less closely affiliated we’ve kept their same policies.

      I get 2 vacation days a month, and 1 sick day a month. I don’t think the vacation days cap, but they really want people to use them. We close for a while during the holidays and part of the vacation days are used to cover the time period that isn’t an official holiday [usually about 3-4 days of the holiday break period.] The accrual rate is the same for everyone, regardless of how long they’ve been there [at my federal workplace you had to have 15 years in before you were able to accrue vacation time at a similar rate to what I get now.]

      Also have a ton of holidays beyond the main ones, the day after Thanksgiving and Christmas are official holidays on our calendar.

    75. 2 Cents*

      Old and New Job both have 20 days in a general pool after the 1st year (when it was just 10 days): sick, PTO, personal, vacation, etc.

    76. TinyTim*

      Large (15K+ employees) private company and I get a pool of 15 PTO days for everything. We get all of the usual holidays plus Black Friday and a few floating holidays we rarely seem to take.

      On a side note, It’s the first place I’ve ever worked that has no official method of tracking days off. I got confirmation from HR that we have nothing. An in-house developer created shared calendars that IT managers use to track days but I’m not sure what the rest of the company uses. It’s weird.

      On the plus side, that gives managers some leeway. For example, I put in more hours than most and have noticed my sick days never get subtracted from the vacation calendar (others have confirmed theirs do). And we have a change freeze over Christmas so my manager “unofficially” gives my whole team the week off (though we’re technically on-call). 15 days is a decent amount when you don’t have to save 4-5 days for Christmas.

    77. LizB*

      We accrue 20 days per year of PTO. Whatever you have saved up rolls over every year, and it only stops accruing once you hit that 20-day cap. Your cap and accrual rate go up at 3 years and 10 years of service (I think?). We also have major public holidays off; if you need or choose to work on one of them, you get a Holiday Flex day that can be used any time during that calendar year, but disappears at the end of the year.

    78. Z*

      I get 15 vacation days per year, of which 12 can roll over year to year. 12 sick days per year, and I think those roll over as well.

    79. Swoop*

      I’m part-time so no paid vacation but vacation pay offsets that somewhat. For paid days there’s stats + the company pays some other days they close.

    80. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      We have a “work it out amongst yourselves” policy, which has basically worked out to one full week (5 days) per six months, plus an additional 5-7 scattered days throughout the year.

    81. Minion*

      Ours is all rolled into one big ball of personal leave. We earn 8.31 hours per pay period, which is bi-weekly. Once we’ve been here 5 years that goes up to 9.something and after 10 it’s 10.something. I’ve been here for 1.5 years and I have 200 hours available to me right now and that’s what’s left after I’ve taken days off and had a week’s vacation, etc.
      All in all, I think we have a very generous personal leave policy.

    82. Pwyll*

      I’m at a small private firm and receive 2 weeks (80 hours) of vacation. We don’actively track sick or personal time or have a specific pool for it, and I can pretty much call out sick or go to medical appointments as I deem appropriate.

      That said, we’re in a billable hours environment. If I take vacation it is counted for my billables , but nothing else is. So, I have a great deal of flexibility, depending on my billables.

    83. Apollo Warbucks*

      Holidays 25 days and 8 public holiday paid as well as 5 additional days to take unpaid.

      Sick pay I don’t know off hand but at least several weeks paid as long a doctor sings a sick note

    84. Leetaann*

      I’ve been with my company 10 years. I currently get 20 vacation days, 3 floating holidays, 2 personal days and 10 sick days.

      I also have bereavement leave, should I need it and can take paid time off for volunteer work as long as my manager approves.

    85. Melissa*

      I work for a university in the US. I get:
      1.5 vacation days per month, up to a total of 349 hours. After that it’s use it or lose it.
      8 hours sick time per month, no maximum
      5 paid holidays per year
      5 days between Christmas and New Year’s when the campus closes down

      I don’t get summers off because I don’t teach. But that also means I don’t play the ‘publish or perish’ game or have to do as many community events each year, so I’m satisfied with the deal. :)

    86. Schnapps*

      Canadian/Municipal gov’t/union here.

      Currently: 20 vacation, 18 earned days off , supplementary vacation 5 days which have to be used up by 2018, currently 5 and a half months of banked sick time, 3 days banked gratuity (for each quarter we don’t use our sick time, we get a day’s gratuity, up to 3 days/year, bankable up to 120 days), 12 public holidays.

    87. Khal E Essi*

      – 20 days vacation time (15 days, plus everyone gets the week off between Xmas & New Years). Unused vacation time carries over into the next year, w/ a max of 30 days vaca for those under 5 years of service, 40 days for those with 5+
      – 3 personal days which are use it or lose it
      – 12 sick days. Unused sick time carries over, for a max of 130 days.
      – 11.5 paid holidays (Xmas Eve is a half day but I was pretty much the only one here that day last year!)

      This is higher ed in the US. I am in my first year so I haven’t accrued any carry-over vacation time.

    88. Brett*

      I’m a contractor now, so I get 12 days vacation, 5 days sick, 1 personal holiday.

      Old job, while being bad in so many ways, had amazing time off.
      21.5 days PTO to start, 25 days after your first year. Another 5 days each at 11, 21, and 26 years for a max of 40 days.
      Plus 10 holidays and 5 double pay days (so if you worked the scheduled holiday, you received double pay and you still got to take a different off in place of the holiday).
      Carryover cap was 1.5 x yearly, but because we were so short staffed and almost never could get vacations approved, the carryover cap was suspended my last three years there. When I resigned, I had two months of PTO accrued and got to cash out all of them at full value.

      Though that was nothing compared to employees hired before 1996. They had a grandfathered policy where vacation was accrued at 2/3rds of the current PTO, but you also received sick pay equal to your vacation. Sick pay had no carryover caps and you were only required to use it if you ran out of vacation. That meant that any employee who worked to full retirement and never took sick pay could get an extra $150k pay out at retirement, 50% of which was credited towards their final salary for calculating their pension.

    89. Crystal Vu*

      Each year, I get:
      9 national and 1 state holiday
      12 sick days
      15 vacation days
      2 floating holidays

      I started at 10 vacation days a year, 6 months’ waiting period to use. It’s also possible to get 20 days and 25 days after working the requisite number of years.

    90. Willow*

      No official policy–informally I take about 3 weeks of vacation/year, and personal or sick days when needed.

    91. NoCalHR*

      We’re a not-for-profit property management company. Employees accrue (on the basis of regular hours worked) 12 days sick leave/year (can carry over up to a 30 day cap); 10 days vacation/year (can carry over up to a 20 day cap) which goes to 15 days (30 day cap) with 5 years of service and 20 days (40 day cap) with 10 years of service; 10 paid holidays per year. No personal time or floating holidays.

    92. Witty Nickname*

      I get 27 days of PTO, 10 company holidays, and our official sick time policy for exempt employees is “just make sure your work is getting done.”

      New hires start at 17 days PTO, then get another 5 days after 3 years, another 5 after 8 years, and 5 more after 20 years. (I’m in CA, so my PTO is accrued each pay period. I can accrue up to 1.5 times the annual rate, and then it stops until I use some, but I can never lose anything I’ve already accrued. Employees in other states get the same amount but accrue it differently and must use it all each year).

    93. Marian the Librarian*

      Full-time employees get five PT days at the beginning of the fiscal year, and five PTO days the day you start your job. Then, every six months, you get five more PTO days. We accumulate 1 sick day each month. PTO carries over from year to year, but nothing else does.

    94. Bea W*

      3 weeks vacation, 3 personal days, 2 floating holidays, 6 sick days, and the office closes the last week of the year for which we are also paid. We have a “use it or lose it” policy. If you haven’t used your time by Dec 31 you lose it.

    95. Anon for this*

      Taiwan, contract employee (no tenure) at a government research institute. Vacation/sick leave are set by the government and non-negotiable.

      15 days paid sick leave from the beginning, but if we take more than 10 we can’t get the highest rating on our annual performance evaluation. There is provision for longer unpaid leave. We do need a doctor’s note for more than one consecutive sick day, which sucks, but the doctor’s appointment doesn’t cost anything, and it’s easy to get a next day appointment with a GP.

      Zero vacation at first, but it gradually increments with length of service, starting at one week. After ten years, I’ve maxed out at 25 days a year (paid). Usually no problem with approval. So I’m good now, but it sucks for postdocs and anyone who changes jobs.

      We usually get about a week off at Chinese New Year, and nine other stat holidays (founding of the ROC, 228 memorial holiday, tomb sweeping, children’s day, labour day, dragon boat festival, mid autumn festival and national day.) They do this weird thing where if the stat holiday is on a Tuesday or Thursday, they give us the Monday or Friday, for a four day weekend, but the next Saturday is a work day (and the same thing to make the New Year’s holiday a full week).

      My employer is fairly flexible for the occasional work from home, for things like plumbers and food poisoning.

    97. GreenTeaPot*

      Ten days vacation until five years, then fifteen. Six sick days a year. Six paid holidays. No personal days, but time off for personal appointments, as needed. Three days funeral leave.

    98. Melissa*

      My first year on the job. I can’t remember all the exact details, but here’s the gist. This is for state govt work.

      – 8 hours of PTO and 8 hours of sick leave accrue per month. I think PTO accrual increases with seniority, but not sick leave. These carry over year to year, although if I accrue enough I have to use it or lose it. I forget what that limit is since I’m obviously no where near it.
      – 10 paid holidays per year.
      – 8 hours “personal holiday” and 8 hours of “personal leave” per year, which don’t carry over. As far as I know, they can be used for anything.
      – 40 hours of life giving PTO every… I want to say every year, but maybe every 2-3. It’s paid time off for things like blood/plasma/marrow donation etc.
      – 3 days (I think) bereavement leave every year or 2 years, something like that.

    99. skyline*

      20 days vacation, 12 days sick leave, 3 floating holidays, and 11 organizational holidays a year. Max accrual for vacation is 160 hours (20 days), no max accrual for sick leave. I’m a senior manager for a public agency.

    100. Jen RO*

      21 days of PTO (this is the minimum level mandated by law – at 3 years with the company you get bumped up to 25). I’ve never counted the public holidays, but we don’t get the following Monday off if a holiday falls on a weekend, so it varies year by year. A couple of months of sick leave, only with a doctor’s note (the exact amount of days and the exact pay you get depends on the illness). In my company the concept of ‘calling in sick’ doesn’t exist – you either take PTO, get a doctor’s note and take sick leave, or you go to work. I’m in Romania.

    101. Punkin*

      24 days vacation, 13 holidays (including week between Christmas & New Year’s), 12 sick days

      We can roll over 22 vacation days per fiscal year – anything over that rolls to sick time. Unused vacation time will be paid at time of separation, but not sick time. Unused sick time can be used to pad end date at retirement.

      State higher ed in US. Classified as professional. Support staff (admins, janitorial staff…) get about half of the sick & annual leave, plus the same holidays.

      1. Punkin*

        I forgot 3 day bereavement leave. And our sick time can also be used for family members’ illnesses or doctor & dental appointments. The OldJob made us use vacation time for family members’s appointments. UGH.

    102. Anonyby*

      PT in CA here, so I get 3 days sick. (Company was rather generous in that they counted the three days as full 8hr days, when they could have legally gotten away with giving me three 5hr days.)

      I might be moving to FT soon, so I’ve been looking into the policy. The number of days are based on the amount of time you’ve been working, ranging from 14-26 days pooled PTO and split into four tiers. Max accrual cap is roughly 1.5 years’ worth of PTO. What would suck for me is that people who go from PT to FT don’t get their PT years counted when determining benefits.

      There’s also 8 company holidays that get paid at 80% of your normal day’s pay.

    103. J*

      16 days vacation (front loaded), 5 days personal (front loaded), 12 sick days (accrue at one per month). US local government. After 5 years, another 5 days of vacation.

  5. Audiophile*

    Woo-hooo! It’s Friday!

    Work is insane. We have an event next Thursday and then an event the following Friday.

    Then I can breathe a little until June. They pushed up their November event to July, so I’m going to have to finagle a vacation somewhere in there. I’ll be in the job six months at that point. Since I don’t expect any type of raise, I’m definitely getting away for a bit.

    I’m in the middle of a chain of emails, boss decided we should send out a Passover email. We already had an event email scheduled, so everyone of our contacts will get both emails. I’m waiting for the onslaught of unsubscribers.

  6. Hungry*

    Hi all! Hoping you can advise on salary/promotion info and expectations. I’m the director of a department overseeing three direct reports. I had a counterpart (same title) in a different department with no direct reports but overseeing an agency. That counterpart left, and there has been discussion of moving her responsibilities over to me, and promoting me to a larger strategic role overseeing both depts. No salary or title has been discussed yet, and I’m not sure what I should ask for or expect. The other director presumably made around the same salary as me, though I certainly don’t expect that I would get all of that. What’s a typical jump for a promotion? I’m afraid the company is going to seriously lowball me under the assumption I should be honored to take this on.

    1. LanLinesareLosers*

      Without a title it is challenging to know. Typically I have seen that a director is an AVP. If you are overseeing several departments, typically, you over see directors as well and would become a VP. In your case, however, you are not overseeing any directors.

      You definitely are not going to get a 100% raise for taking on the work of another co-worker. I would try to think about this role in reverse. Assume you eliminated a direct report and think about the work that would be divvyed up. How would that impact their salary if at all?

    2. Janet*

      You should also expect some of your counterpart’s salary budget to be used (presumably by you) to back-fill some of your role if you take a step up, and start thinking about how this structure would work best as you frame out your new role (and salary and title).

      Example: you become senior director/AVP/VP; you won’t be able to do the full time role of what your counterpart did AND manage your existing 3 direct reports. That’ll have to go to your reports, to a new hire, you, or some combination.

      I would also recommend you figure out what is more important if push were to come to shove: title or salary. I know this sounds like a no-brainer (SALARY!) but there are often cases where title matters more to people after a certain level. Because you asked, and I have no idea whatsoever about your industry, here are some for-instance numbers, though they might be low if you are a director in a for-profit company (i know many on here are not).

      You currently make 100k; your counterpart makes about 100k. You get a title bump/promo that’s 15-20% bringing you to 120k. Maybe you can negotiate a bigger bonus (if your company does them) to accompany the new title/role.

      You then need to restructure things so one of your direct reports, who currently makes 80k, takes over some agency-mgmt tasks. 20% bump for them. Or you hire new, eating up 80k.

      I suggest you check Glassdoor and other sources for what people in your industry make at various levels. When I was a senior mgr, I made 120 with a 5% bonus; as a director i made 125 with a 25% bonus and as an AVP I made 160 with a 35% bonus. I will tell you I was grossly underpaid compared to my peers in both the Director and AVP titles, but I was also the youngest (ie least experienced).

      DH is a senior director and makes 190k with a 35k (not %) bonus. We both work in technology-ish companies (but not those crazy start ups or anything particularly lucrative!!)

  7. Anonymous Cookie*

    How long after having a phone interview do you assume that you’re not moving on in the process? I had a phone interview last Tuesday; they wrapped up the phone interviews on Monday and I was told I’d hear back by the end of the week.

    1. Anon for this*

      Depends on the industry, of course, but if you take what they say and AT LEAST double it, then add a week, you might be getting close. Take Alison’s advice and mentally move on (preferably including applying somewhere else) so that a phone call/email update is something that just happens, and you’re not spending all your time wondering about it.

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      Didn’t Alison do something about what expectations should be? I think I’d wait at least a week before assuming that I wasn’t moving forward. (Or until you get an email letting you know that you won’t be moving forward.) People are often a lot more optimistic about when they’ll be able to get back to you than they should be.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I would assume right away, so you can be pleasantly surprised if that’s not the case. I’ve seen a lot of weird drawn-out hiring timelines, so don’t hold your breath.

    4. Joanna*

      There’s no set amount of time. I’ve had everything from an hour to a month. In the meantime, keep working on applications for other jobs otherwise you’ll loose momentum if this one doesn’t work out

  8. Jennifer*

    This week’s news:
    (a) My supposed transfer off public service is now at least SIX MONTHS away. And that news was BEFORE finding out that my coworker being left behind needs arm surgery. Oh, and I’m going to have to apply for the job due to my stupid union (I am not anti-union, but my union is awful to its members) not wanting to let me go and the dream job I am supposed to be getting into doesn’t have one. I’m starting to think this may not happen. I really don’t think they can afford to lose me serving and smiling when they will be down to three people.
    (b) I caught someone lying to their employer this week, but I had to be super cagey and get two supervisors to check my e-mail before I could tell the HR lady anything. She has apparently had all hints fly over her head like butterflies and it sounds like they are going to hire him anyway! And he’s lying to her but I can’t say that! She just didn’t get it! Grrr!

    1. S0phieChotek*

      (b) You can’t tell HR that an employer is lying? Would not re-act well? Favor this person?

      1. Jennifer*

        I’m not allowed to tell her anything that isn’t “public information.” Especially with two managers having to check my e-mail before I send it. There’s probably legal issues if I get caught telling her he’s straight up lying.

        1. TootsNYC*

          He’s lying about something you can confirm?

          Can you simply say: “That doesn’t match our records” or “I cannot confirm that”?

          Or if he’s lying about something that’s not yours to directly refute, can you say, “If I could be so bold; you might check more carefully into that”?

  9. TheIntern*

    I was one of two finalists last week but did not get the job. The Executive Director was transparent throughout the process and shared with me that one of the board members (who played a role in the decision of who to hire) felt I was overqualified. The job required a BS and I am graduating with my MSW this week, but I understood the role and really saw it as a great entry level position for me to grow in my skills. I am continuing to apply to similar positions because I lack the management experience needed for higher level roles. I never thought of myself as over qualified before, but I guess I could be for some jobs with an advanced degree plus 5+ years experience in the field.

    Do I address this proactively in a cover letter or interview moving forward or just take it as a one off remark?

    1. IT Kat*

      If the field’s norms do make you overqualified with a Masters… then take it off your resume.

      Don’t hide that you have it, obviously, but the resume is a marketing document, and if it’s hurting your chances, there’s no point to having it on there.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq*

        I agree. I am always skeptical of applicants that have a Masters in a field totally unrelated to the job I’m hiring for. I would not DQ for that reason, of course, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t skeptical. I’m just assuming that this person is a flight risk because they obviously want to be doing something else.

        1. TheIntern*

          I should have specified, the jobs require a Bachelor’s in Social Work or related field; however, I have a Master’s and 5+ years experience in the same field.

          1. MM*

            Fellow MSW here with 5+ years in the field. You don’t specify if this was a direct service role or not. A lot of direct service roles I’ve seen will have a line like MSW preferred, BSW high school diploma with experience required. Run away from those jobs! They will not pay what you are worth and burn you out quickly. You have a masters and previous work and field education experience aim higher! Unless a job posting specifies they need someone with a clinical license you should apply for them. Good luck!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think you should address it in the cover letter directly in the sense of “I know I’m overqualified, but…” Instead you should really make a case for both why you’re good for the position and why you’re interested in the position. Usually, the focus in the cover letter is to explain what you can offer, and it’s less about why you’re interested, but if you’re probably overqualified, it’s worth mentioning what appeals to you about the position. Otherwise, the hiring manager will just think, “This person’s just applying to whatever, and she doesn’t really want this job.”

      1. TootsNYC*

        what is there about the job you’re applying to that will be growth for you?

        Emphasize that.

        Maybe the organization is a new structure, different size. (Bigger = chance to see more complexity; smaller = chance to observe and be involved from a closer perspective)

  10. Aunt Vixen*

    Paging Katie the Fed and other feds!

    I have an interview for a federal position in a couple of weeks. What can you tell me about the difference between interviews for federal jobs and interviews for jobs out here in the rest of the world?

    1. Milton*

      In my experience they are fond of the STAR method of interviewing. Especially the R (result)!

      I pulled my experiences from all points in my life: high school, undergrad, grad school, personal, professional/current job. This was particular for my position, so you may not need to share as much about your life. Good luck on your interview!

    2. Statie*

      In my agency, you could expect structured interviews with few opportunities for follow-on questions to get more out of your answer. It makes for awkward interviewing; interviewee finishes sentence, interviewers write, then everyone moves to the next question. I always make sure I have key things I want to convey and find a way to do so through the questions I ask at the end of the interview if I haven’t been able to hit those topics in responding to their questions.

      We also tend to have score sheets with a rubric for each of the structured interview questions. The best answers (as in any interview) show how you think, how you prioritize, and how you handle competing interests.

    3. Elle the new Fed*

      Also it will feel very staged and rigid because there is a list of questions they have to ask.

      Personally when I interview I don’t love the structured questions because people always miss the STAR. Answer the question is so important. I do love the questions at the end because it allows me to have much more meaningful conversations and probe more deeply into experience.

    4. Slippy*

      If you are applying for something below a GS 13 most of the interview should be about how well you can do the job. At 13 and above they generally start asking more about strategic issues and managing the people doing the work. YMMV.

    5. AnotherFed*

      There is probably a very set list of questions and interviewers rarely are allowed to ask follow up questions, so make sure you really answer the questions (with relevant examples). Especially for formal panel interviews, the panel isn’t allowed to interact with you beyond introductions, including smiling, nodding, looking interested/bored/hungry. Most people suck at doing that in a neutral way, so don’t get thrown by people with RBF or who suddenly scowl or shut down because they realized they were making some other expression.

      Also, expect it to take them forever to get back to you after the interview – even if you are the top candidate, it can take a long time to get the necessary approvals to have an offer made. One job we posted took 3 months, and I’ve heard horror stories of much longer than that…

    6. K130*

      Congrats on the interview!
      I’ve had 2 federal interviews, one for my previous position, one for my current position and two since then (because I’m trying to find a higher grade position, but that’s a different story). I think they suck. Three of them were scripted, like read directly of the page, no room for dialogue. Two of them were over the phone (not a screening, the actual interview) and a third was in the same room as one of the interviewers and over video with the two other interviewers. One of them, I was interviewed by counterparts of equal grade at three separate locations and they would present their recommendation to the hiring manager in a 4th location, none of them worked at the hiring location. And my FAVORITE part is how long they take to get back to you. My position now I applied in August, interviewed in October, got the offer in late November. I had an interview last August and one in January. I’m still waiting to hear back on those. ;)

      1. De Minimis*

        Entirely depends on the agency, department, and the individual hiring manager.

        The interview I had for my federal job [accountant for a group of medical clinics] was no different than a private sector job interview. This is just a theory I have, but when it’s a job that also exists in the private sector, the interview is more likely to resemble a private sector interview. If it’s something that is really government specific [like an IRS agent] it’s more likely to be ultra structured.

        BTW for the interview at my last fed job, they called me with a tentative offer the next day…

        I’ve had others that were 100% structured [and you should probably be ready for that just in case, that seems to be pretty common.] For federal jobs I’ve never had any that were so structured that you couldn’t have any kind of dialogue with the interviewer [have seen that a lot though with county and municipal jobs…]

        I tell people that the key to preparing for these interviews is the same as any other interview, the only extra thing to do is to be prepared to tell your “story” in whatever format is necessary.

    7. Pwyll*

      Agreed with the others: my Federal interviews were very strictly orchestrated. We weren’t allowed to deviate from the prepared question pool, and they weren’t allowed to accept any supplemental documents I brought (think writing samples, a prettier version of my resume that isn’t the ugly thing USA Jobs spits out, etc.). But the formality and tone of the interviews really varied from agency-to-agency. One agency was heavy on process, “here’s a problem how would you solve it” and others were more “tell us a story from your past on these subjects”. But all of them would cut me off if I got too far afield from the question prompt.

      And don’t take the lack of followup personally: I didn’t get an offer a full 6 months after my interview for one of them.

    8. Student*

      Federal job interviews are just as varied as “rest of the world”.

      These people are more “stuck” with you than “rest of the world” in some aspects, so they are likely to want to know if you’ll be reasonable to work with longer term.

  11. Mona Lisa*

    Thanks, everyone, who responded when I asked what to do about my class that was teaching bad resume skills a few weeks ago! Today we traded around resumes in class to offer constructive feedback, and the freshman I helped told me, “I’ve learned more in five minutes of talking with you than I have this entire semester.” There was also a natural in for me to suggest AAM to the TA when he came by our desks, and he put the link up on the board and made a big announcement that everyone should check it out. Hopefully Alison will have a bunch of new readers (with awesome resumes) soon!

  12. Tilly W*

    Last week there was a post regarding reaching out to a fired employee and I wanted to share my recent experience.

    I was part of a large layoff two weeks ago and last week my boss asked me to coffee. I was a little skeptical but when we met up he wanted to explain the scope of the layoffs. He also offered to help in my job search/reference and reminded me that I have a great skill set so I shouldn’t settle in my job search. I left the meeting with some confidence because even though layoffs were inevitable at our company, I was feeling knocked down. He didn’t have to reach out but it was a really nice gesture.

    And I realize this would have been much different if I had been fired.

  13. Karowen*

    In the Jekyll/Hyde post from yesterday, the manager mentioned that her team was incredibly frustrated and of course didn’t know about Hyde’s PIP. I know that this is the correct thing to do, but what do you do if you’re in danger of losing a number of fantastic team members because they don’t know that you’re aware of/taking action against a bad team member? Is there a way for a good manager to let her team know that she aware of the issues the bad team member is causing and is working to fix them?

    (I’m not in a managerial position at all; just genuinely curious.)

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve gone to my manager about issues with an employee and they said they were aware of the problems and there are new steps in place to address them. I took that to mean that the person was on a PIP. You can’t tell everyone about a PIP, but if someone directly asks, I think it is best to at least acknowledge that there is a problem and you are addressing it.

      1. Kira*

        That sounds really straightforward. I get frustrated when Edwin is dropping the ball and I describe it out to our supervisor, whose only response is “well maybe then you should pick up the ball” instead of ever acknowledging that maybe Edwin should be held to a higher standard. They say that, understandably, that performance issues are handled 1-on-1, but it’s annoying when you don’t even know if they recognize there is a performance issue! And so many people have been fired abruptly, I don’t think they got clear feedback that they needed to improve.

        1. AVP*

          I’m sorry, that is a really frustrating answer to hear as well as a metaphor gone awry. I wish you could have kept it going…. “But what if I already have two balls in my hands and one was in the air and about to be thrown under a bus?”

      2. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

        When I have had a problem employee on a PIP and people have come to me with concerns my go to statement is, “thank you for sharing your concerns with me. I want to let you know that I am aware there are concerns and am taking steps to address it.”

        Because I have proven myself to my team, most of them walk away with “cool, Not the Droid is on top of things…” The only time it was frustrating was when I had the employee who followed the PIP to the letter, but then continued to do things that weren’t on the PIP. After the third time I had to amend the document, HR finally said enough was enough and that we could just move forward with termination.

      3. LBK*

        Yes, I had this same kind of interaction with my manager re: a problem employee – I brought my concerns to him and he said he was aware and steps were being taken.

    3. LanLinesareLosers*

      That’s when a team meeting outlining behavior is a good idea IMO.

      If management comes to meeting and says, X, Y, and Z are unacceptable. I want to let everyone know that we take this very seriously. If this behavior is witnessed you will be put on a PIP and potentially dismissed.

      Then you didn’t go air Mr. Hyde’s business but you did let the team know if is being addressed.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, but do they know? That type of messaging can also cause people to wonder if they are being accused of wrongdoing and they won’t necessarily know that someone they know to be a problem has actually already been put on PIP. I think AndersonDarling’s suggestion is good, although only in the case where someone comes to you about the problem.

      2. LBK*

        I think that only works for instances of someone breaking hard rules, ie “using your cell phone while on the clock is unacceptable”. I think it would be really weird to have a meeting to state that broader behavioral characteristics are unacceptable…mostly because it goes without saying for most people that being a jerk to your coworkers is unacceptable, and it’s going to be really patronizing to tell your entire team at once that you expect basic professionalism out of them unless it’s a widespread issue.

        1. Doriana Gray*

          This. I hate these kind of talks from management. If you have a problem employee (or several), address that person directly. Don’t lecture at me.

    4. KR*

      When I’ve talked to managers about a problem employee, they usually use a wording pretty close to yours. “I’ve had several people talk to me about Ramona and I want you to know that we are working with her to reach a solution.” They keep the details vague but they let us know that they are aware there’s a problem without sharing specifics. This is in the case of an employee who is at the same “level” as me, whereas if I’m reporting a problem about an employee that I supervise they usually give me specifics so I can better coach them or answer questions they have.

      1. Karowen*

        Interesting. What if you as the manager didn’t have anyone come talk to you, but you could sense the mood shift? Would you proactively say anything?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I have done subtle things liked watched for an eye-roll (from one the complainers) and then nodded, as in “yes, I see the problem.”

          Never underestimate other subtleties, too. When a person is called into the boss’ office and the door is closed, we ALL understand that visual.

          Depending on the nature of the situation and the other employees’ involvement in the original issues, I might reopen a previous conversation. “A while ago you came in and told me there was difficulty with Bob. I’d like to know if you have any updates on our original conversation.” But this is a gray area, and I would use several factors to figure out if I would do this or not. For example: Let’s say someone uses a machine/chemical/something in an unsafe manner. I’d speak to the individual after receiving a complaint. Then later, for some reason, I get the idea that the individual is STILL working unsafely. I would go back to the person who complained and ask “Have you noticed any further problems with safety regarding Coworker’s use of machine/chemical/other.” Safety issues were always easy for me to reopen the conversation because safety effects everyone.

    5. Manager thoughts*

      We tell staff that whenever concerns are raised, we follow up, but that that process may take a while and may not be visible to them.

      1. Rebecca Too*

        Yes, especially because confidentiality is a big deal in the whole PIP process. Even if an employee is a “known problem” and others have expressed frustration as to why that person is still employed (I used to get those complaints all the time!), as a manager you probably need to tread lightly while still acknowledging that you’re “on it”.

    6. Mary*

      I’ve had this happen to me before–I was the employee in danger of leaving over frustration. After months of covering for an co-worker’s frequent absences, I finally asked my boss about the situation. She just looked me straight in the eye and said, “It’s being handled.” And that was that. (Of course, my supervisor is a terrific manager, and I trust her.) The employee was fired several months later–but I was able to stick it out.

  14. Depressed Millennial*

    To summarize: I graduated from college six years ago, I have yet to land a full time salaried position and I feel worthless about life.

    I graduated from college in 2010. During the recession not many companies were hiring, and neither I nor anybody I knew got a job out of college. After graduating I was unemployed for almost a year before landing a minimum wage job at a museum. I worked there for a year and a half, then went to graduate school. After getting my master’s, I spent the next two years looking for jobs in my field – I am interested in non-profits dedicated to educational equality. Found nothing after two years of searching, and out of desperation took a part-time job answering telephones at a company in my town, where I still work. I am the only person at the company with a master’s degree, and I would estimate about 75 percent of employees only have a high school diploma.

    This past month I was interviewing for a job I really wanted. There were four rounds of interviews. I made it to the third round, and I thought I did a great job. But I got a rejection email this week. It’s always the same: “Your qualifications are amazing, but we’re going forward with other candidates.” Well, joy. It’s great that they think I’m amazing, but second best doesn’t get you the job. And six years of applying for jobs and being rejected really wears on your self-esteem.

    I have had to get pretty creative when it comes to gaining experience. I have done a lot of freelance work in the non-profit world. I also do a lot of volunteering. I have even started my own charitable projects. I run a blog in my niche. Most employers tell me that my resume and cover letters are very impressive. I got an email back yesterday from a position I applied for saying “Thank you for your interest. While you would be an awesome candidate, we have filled this role. Best of luck finding something where you can use all of the valuable skills you possess.”

    I think the thing that bums me out the most about all of this is that I am really interested in non-profts. I don’t want a job in order to make money… I want a job in order to help people. I know that I have amazing talents and I know my purpose in life is to help others. I see so much inequality in the world, and I want to help others rise up. My passion is giving everybody a chance at a high quality education, and solving poverty. I have had plenty of jobs where I made barely above minimum wage, and I was happy because I knew I was making a difference. (Okay, having a job to help me pay off my $70,000 in student loans would be nice). There are so many people in the world who need help, and I want to help them, and I just want somebody to hire me so I can! But I go into these interviews and I talk about how dedicated I am to the mission, and my experience… and I get rejected. If passion, enthusiasm, and experience doesn’t get you a job, what the heck does?

    Thanks for giving me a space to vent. It’s been a tough week.

    1. Collie*

      I hear you. Your contributions are important, you are important, and from one Millennial to another, you’re not alone.

      1. Mark in Cali*

        I used to be like you and only wanted to work for a non-profit and the “greater good.” I work in corporate after many years of waiting tables and piecing together jobs at various non-profits just trying to wait my turn. Consider this: many corporations are actually very responsible and do good work and, get this, have way more financial benefits than non-profits.

        Can you consider finding a job in the corporate sector? You’ll find that many corporations encourage their employees to get involved on a board of directors and do volunteer work with organizations their foundations support. Going this route could 1) satisfy your need to work in or with a non-profit, 2) put you on a better road financially, 3) save you lots of frustration and 4) open doors for the future to work with a non-profit after you get more skills.

        1. Meg Murry*

          Yes, Mark gives good advice here. Don’t limit yourself just to non-profits – you can find reputable corporate companies that will provide you with excellent skills and training so that in a few years if you make the move to a non-profit you will be much more *useful* to them.

          Also, Callie downthread makes an excellent point that if you haven’t actually worked in education, you can be as passionate as you want but you may not make much progress without some experience in the field to back that up. Most people don’t take well to advice from “experts” who have studied their field but not actually dealt with the day-to-day.

          Have you considered a program like Teach for America to get you some on the ground experience with education?

          1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

            Teach for America is a great idea, as is AmeriCorps.

            If I remember correctly TFA also has some sort of Loan Forgiveness program during your time in the classroom.

          2. Rob Lowe can't read*

            If the OP decides to go with a program like TfA or another alternative route to teaching, he or she needs to make sure the program is an ideological fit. Some school districts have their own residency/training programs for prospective teachers that are more focused on traditional public schools (Boston has one, and I know some people who have done them in Richmond VA and Memphis TN also), although those usually only pay a living stipend the first year. City Year or other AmeriCorps programs might also be good options, as might Citizen Schools if that’s offered in the OP’s local districts. Becoming a teacher’s aide or paraprofessional would be another route to gaining experience (and probably pays better than national service positions).

          3. Meg Murry*

            I would also add that if you spent a few years working at a corporation that you trusted and got your loans paid down/off, that would give you a lot more flexibility in the kind of jobs you could afford to take in 5-10 years. I’m not saying sell your soul, but making money at a company who’s mission you generally agree with (or at least don’t hate) to get yourself out of debt is a valid path, and one worth considering.

          4. Callie*

            Teach for America… I have many issues with them. They don’t train their teachers enough, they take kickbacks from districts that are already struggling financially when they place their “grads” there, and they really don’t encourage teachers to stay. They aren’t interested in developing teachers. They are interested in developing policymakers. Get a little teaching experience and move on to something else is their mindset. Kids deserve better than this. They deserve teachers who are committed to them and to the community. High rates of teacher turnover are terrible for schools.

        2. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

          I definitely agree with Mark, sometimes for-profit can actually be the jumping off point for non-profit.

          You could also look at companies that do non-profit consulting (RuffaloCody, Wilson-Bennet, etc.) you’ll likely end up running a phone program somewhere (not super exciting), but you will get valuable experience and make a lot of connections.

        3. Sunflower*

          Yes I’ve been pressing my friend to do this. Lots of corporations have community outreach programs.

        4. Mallory*

          I agree with this statement. I started out in the corporate world, and after 6 years I recently started an amazing job with a large non-profit (and it pays really well too!). Getting work experience will put you into a much better position to find a job with the kind of company you are looking for.

    2. AnotherMillenial*

      I understand where you are completely. I also graduate in 2010 with 2 advanced degrees and huge student loan debt (6 figures) and ended up working at a Starbucks-like coffee shop FT because that is all I could. I hear you and commiserate with…but have no advice as I am in the same boat!

    3. LanLinesareLosers*

      First – I wish you the best of luck and sadly I know many millenials in your shoes. They have been out of school for 5 – 7 years with only part-time of reail work to show for it. They feel like employers would rather hire a fresh out of college millennial into an entry level role than them. : c

      That last letter you shared made me concerned that you are coming across as overqualified. With a masters degree, if you are applying to entry level roles, my guess is that most non-profits are concerned that you won’t stay in the role long and are just looking for a “jumping off” point.

      Have you tried contacting any of the companies that rejected you and asking for feedback?

    4. Bowserkitty*

      Hang in there – we’re in a similar age demographic for this and I definitely understand. I was still working just above minimum wage for well over a year after graduating and managed to break into my first well-paying (well enough that I could finally afford rent AND loans and other bills, but not much else) job after temping there for several months, also at a couple dollars above minimum. And even then, the job I was offered was the job nobody else wanted but it looked good on my resume, all three years of it. You will get through this. <3

    5. Fabulous*

      I am in the same boat and I graduated in 2007! I had a job in my field (theatre) at one point and then the market crashed and poof! I started working in finance. Now I’m trying to get back into nonprofit theatre development. I went back and got my Masters, and have been applying like mad since Nov 2014 with barely any bites. Of the interviews I’ve had, I’ve also gotten to the final stages with no avail. It sucks. No better way to describe it…

    6. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      *hugs* I really wish I had answers. I’ve been in a similar boat for a long time. Well except I really don’t like people… ;)

    7. Mando Diao*

      Your current call center job is absolutely a good stepping stone, so don’t feel bad about that. I’ve known a lot of people who stuck it out for two years at jobs like that and used that office experience to land something more in line with what they want.

    8. Temperance*

      Why not look in to the for-profit world for now? Everything is unfortunately more competitive than ever.

      I work at a large firm in the pro bono program. For me, it’s a great fit. I don’t have to deal with the stress of low resources/dealing with difficult people 24/7, as I would working at a legal services org, and I am making a MUCH BIGGER difference in my current role, running this program.

      Have you thought about trying to get in to corporate social responsibility programs? I honestly love it, and can’t ever imagine doing direct services, which was my original goal. I still work with some clients and at clinics, but I make a bigger difference.

    9. Shiara*

      I’m sorry you’re having a rough week. You’re definitely not alone.

      I do want to say that I think it’s absolutely fantastic that you’re finding ways to help people through freelancing, volunteer work and other projects, even though I know it can be disappointing that you aren’t able to turn your career to that purpose yet.

    10. EddieSherbert*

      Yeah, I would consider looking at some for-profit or corporate jobs to start with. My first job out of college (around the same time as you) wasn’t really what I was going for and I didn’t feel passionate about the work – but I still learned a lot, made some good connections (stellar references) and it was a great stepping stone for the future.

    11. Callie*

      Do you have any experience working in education? As in, actual teaching?

      I have been in education for a very long time, working with all levels from pre-K to PhD, and the biggest thing that people in the field push back hard against is people (consultants, nonprofits, “reformers”, etc) telling them what to do when they have NO teaching experience whatsoever. If you want to solve education problems but have never been an educator, that might be a big reason you are not getting a job.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        I came here to say the same thing. I’m a teacher, and I have zero interest in listening to non-educators who want to tell me what I should be doing to address my students’ many challenges. I definitely appreciate that there is broad interest in the difficulties faced by the demographic of students I teach (urban, low-income, English language learners), but I appreciate it even more when it’s coming from someone with a base of knowledge and experience and understanding.

        1. Muriel Heslop*

          Another teacher agreeing with this. I encourage you to check with some places you have interviewed to see if your application would be improved with some educational experience. I always need awesome subs and it’s a great way to get a feel for the environment with a number of different schools.

          Good luck! I appreciate your passion.

        2. Callie*

          One of the first things I want to know from someone who is trying to “help” me is “what is your experience in the classroom?” If the answer is “none,” my brain just shuts down. I don’t care if you’re Bill Gates. If you’ve never been the person at the front of the room (and that room being children, not adults), you just Do. Not. Understand.

      2. A Teacher*

        3rd teacher agreeing. I teach in an urban district that’s poor and very diverse. It is great to have speakers that can attest to the challenges of my students-but it isn’t a big value add when someone with zero experience in the classroom comes in and tries to explain how to diversity my learning, how to use concept maps, or any of the other big words thrown out by educational advocates that have never taught in an actual classroom setting.

        1. Anon for this one*

          4th teacher agreeing. I am working with a Phd student right now in Education who has zero. Yes, that is right zero classroom experience pre K- 12.

          1. Callie*

            How in the F can someone get a PhD in education with no teaching experience? When I was looking at PhD programs, they all required a minimum of three years, and tbh that’s really not enough. I have 15, all my colleagues at my current adjunct position have 10+, and so do my soon to be colleagues at my new position.

          2. Rob Lowe can't read*

            That’s insane. I had one professor in grad school who only taught for three years (which was the same amount of experience I had at that point) and I found her to be mostly sizzle and very little steak. She was obviously very knowledgable about her research areas, but I felt like when we discussed actual issues related to the topic of the class she was all like, “Throw theory at the problem!”

            1. Callie*

              Exactly. There are times when you apply the theory and it doesn’t work. What then? You can’t just look at a kid and go “but this book said you would do x if I did y so why aren’t you doing x?”

    12. voluptuousfire*

      My sympathies, OP. It’s rough looking for so long and being told “you’re an amazing candidate but someone is a better fit!” over and over. I can’t offer advice but can commiserate.

    13. neverjaunty*

      This is so, so common for people your age. I hate being the old person who says “hang in there”, but, well.

    14. CMT*

      I hear you. I graduated in 2010 also, and I feel like searching for jobs has been my real full-time work since then. I’ve been unemployed or underemployed almost the whole time.

    15. Manager thoughts*

      Many jobs come through networking. You might try volunteering with Friends groups that support nonprofits, for example, who run events to promote the organization. Those events are an opportunity to meet people who share your interests, and your co-volunteers may be good contacts as well.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Take a hard look at your last paragraph. Make sure that major portions of your last paragraph are in your cover letters. Take that preemptive strike, anticipate their objections and answer the objection before being asked. That is what Alison says to do.

    17. Christian Troy*

      I’m roughly the same age as you and have had similar experiences. When I finished my master’s last year, I was adamant I only wanted a job in patient based research because I wanted to work on projects that were directly helping people. Earlier this year, I really pushed myself to apply to other kinds of jobs in other somewhat related sectors where I thought I could apply some of my skills. It is really hard for me sometimes to see friends get interesting fellowships or work on cool projects, but at some point I am only hurting myself by having such a narrow construction of what a career looks like. I am sorry things aren’t working out for you and my advice is sincerely for your own sanity, consider looking at other kinds of jobs or non-profits.

    18. themmases*

      I’m sorry, this sounds so hard and discouraging. I graduated the year before you and am also in a do-gooder field (public health) so I’ll share a little based on what I do and what my peers do.

      I realize you’re posting anonymously, but make sure you can articulate your interests very specifically, and only get just vague enough about them to fit that organization under your umbrella and make clear why you’re a match. Many people are passionate about education or poverty… Those areas are very broad and saying that doesn’t distinguish you to a non-profit. Always try to frame your interests and accomplishments in a way that makes clear why you belong at this organization as opposed to just any education non-profit.

      A big part of that is making clear that you want to be part of a specific organization’s mission. They aren’t just the group that will pay your bills while you fulfill your destiny of helping others… Ideally you will be part of a team that makes an impact according to that group’s mission and values. Passion is great, but I think sometimes people can stray too far in the direction of emphasizing how a job will be a great opportunity for *them* and help them do what they want to do. That can impress others without it making them want to hire you. In most non-profit roles you serve others through service to the organization.

      Finally no one gets everything they want in a job. If your #1 goal is to work in a particular type of organization, then find out what specific skills they are often in need of. What is the thing that, if you could do it, they’d have to have you? How do you guarantee you’re in the room? Go forth and get that specific thing, not generalized accomplishments. Reach out to people in the field, read the Bureau of Labor Statistics handbook, find blogs about your field. You may also just not be applying to the right level of jobs if you are always being told basically that you’re overqualified. A human with experience will be able to tell you “You have the profile of an analyst, not an assistant, and if you added X…”

    19. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      ~hugs~ I feel you! I graduated college in 2008, had to move back home with my parents because I couldn’t find something to support myself. I was unemployed for about a year, worked temp for awhile, went back to get a teaching certificate because I thought that might work. I substitute taught, trying to get into that industry. I did end up teaching in a classroom for 1 year, but ended up out of that job and for the last 4 years I’ve cobbled together enough of a living from several part time jobs, but I’ve been underemployed for most of my career.

      If your concern is helping people, there are a number of ways to help people, even within corporations. One of the reasons I leaned towards education was because it felt “important” and “helpful”. There are a number of companies that provide services to people where you can feel like you’re making a difference for people.

      I finally got a full time job offer for a position I’ll be starting on Monday… I’m so excited to have something, and I hope you find something too. It takes a LONG time to find something that will make you happy. Good luck!

    20. Camellia*

      I am curious – are you limiting your search to a specific geographical area? If so, is there any way you could open yourself up to a nation-wide search? Sometimes the jobs are there. not ‘here’. Just a thought.

    21. MillersSpring*

      I wouldn’t put much stock in the verbiage of rejections as they are usually form letters. You might have some luck getting feedback from past interviewers.

    22. Rubyrose*

      I’m missing something here, and apologize if this has been answered. I hear what you are interested in. But exactly what are your degrees in? I know some people who got degrees in areas that have nothing to do with jobs they are applying for.

  15. Fabulous*

    Welp, my replacement has been hired at my temp job so I’m out of luck. My targeted job search has generated no leads, so I refreshed my resumes on Careerbuilder and Monster. I have now been contacted 5 times this week by recruiters. Apparently that’s the way to go! Had an interview on Wednesday, another interview this afternoon, and one more next Tuesday… in my selected field no less!

    Glad to finally have some movement on my resume, even if it is through recruiters. Let them do all the work instead of me for once :)

    1. Ann Furthermore*

      Hmmm, I’ll try Monster. I didn’t think it was as popular as it was last time I was in the job market.

    2. AMT 2*

      That’s great! I’ve used a recruiter for my last three new jobs – some are not great but I’ve always had great luck (but it might be field-driven, I’m in accounting), but that’s my rationale – let THEM do the searching, I tell them what I’m looking for and they bring me what they find that fits (the last time around the first call they gave me was for a job in tax which I flatly refused to even interview for, but wound up at the same company but NOT in tax!)

    3. Delyssia*

      Thank you for posting this! The last couple of times I’ve been seriously job searching, I’ve had good luck from posting my resume online and having recruiters reach out to me (admittedly, I’ve gotten plenty of irrelevant calls and emails, too, but I’ve also gotten a number of interviews and two jobs). But I know Alison and a lot of folks around here are against posting your resume online, so I’d been a little reluctant to do so this time.

      I just posted my resume on Indeed, and I may go ahead and post on Monster and Careerbuilder while I’m at it. I’m struggling to find positions I’m interested in to apply to, I’m not really sure what I want my next position to be (other than a step forward in my career), so let’s see if anything interesting finds me!

  16. Lauren*

    Vacation Payout (Massachusetts Laws?)

    My current job is in Mass, and I know that Mass requires vacation payout when you leave a job. My company headquarters is located in Pennsylvanie though, and HR said ‘you are entitled to 50% of your unused vacation pay.’

    Does Mass law trump PA law because I am employed in Mass? Or is it based on where company headquarters is located?

    HR messed our insurance based on Mass insurance law last year so its not unheard of HR just being unaware of the laws pertaining to Mass employees.

    1. ZSD*

      IANAL, but I think that if the office you’re working for is located in Massachusetts, then they’d have to follow Massachusetts law.
      If your job is in MA in the sense that you live in MA and *telecommute* to PA from home, then I think they’d follow PA law. But I’m not sure.

      2. Lauren*

        Nope, I work the in the Mass office. I have 80 hours left for the year, but Mass law is about earned time. Company is saying i will get 27 hours paid, but if I go with Mass law, I would have earned 37 hours.

        Is it worth noting? Yes, I want my money – but more importantly, I want others to get what they owe too when they leave.

        1. CAA*

          Can you clarify how you’re calculating your accrued hours? By the end of the month, you will have worked 1/3 of the year, and 1/3 of 80 hours is 27 hours, so if they pay you for all of the 27 hours, that should be correct. I’m not understanding where the “50% of your unused vacation pay” and “earned 37 hours” is coming from.

          1. CAA*

            Oh I see you explained this below as I was posting. It does look like they should pay out the full 35 hours.

    2. KR*

      I’m pretty sure they have to follow Mass laws because the work is taking place in Mass, but someone who is more qualified might have a better answer.

    3. Ann Cognito*

      CA is also a “pay-out accrued vacation when you leave” state, and I know that if an employee is based in CA they’re considered a CA employee no matter where the company is headquartered, and has to be treated as such.

      My husband was working a few years ago in CA, but the company’s headquarters was on the East coast, and they followed their state law rather than CA law a number of times. He would come home to me and ask me about it (I work in HR), and I would tell him they can’t do that, so he’d make a call and politely tell them that since he was based in CA, they had to do it this way. They would comply, no problem, but it happened more than once!

    4. Adam V*

      Alison has said many times that workers in California, even if the company is based elsewhere, need to be treated under California law. So I’m fairly certain the same would apply to you in Massachusetts.

    5. Liana*

      In this case, MA law trumps PA law – it’s based on where the employee is located, not the company headquarters. Enjoy your vacation payout!

    9. Is it spring yet?*

      While I agree with the others that Mass law should control all you say is that Mass requires vacation payout. The law could allow for less than 100%.

      1. Lauren*

        Employers who choose to provide paid vacation to their employees must treat those payments like any other wages under M.G.L. c. 149, s. 148. Employees must be paid for all earned vacation upon termination of employment. Withholding vacation payments is the equivalent of withholding wages and, as such, is illegal.

    10. alter_ego*

      I think it the question aam got last week about working remotely in another state, one of the big issues that came up was that you have to follow the laws of the state that you’re working in, not the state that the company is headquartered in. Otherwise, people working for European companies would get all kinds of crazy vacation benefits we don’t get here.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        And, otherwise, American corporations who offshore work to Asia to get cheap labor couldn’t get cheap labor. The headquarters location doesn’t matter.

    11. Kenzie*

      I work in PA and received my full vacation payout when I left my last job. This could just be your company not understanding the laws.

      1. Rebecca*

        I live and work in PA too. At my company, PTO is sick time, and does not get paid out if you resign, but your accrued vacation does – 100%. I wonder, though, since companies aren’t required to provide vacation or sick time at all here, if their company policy is 50% of what accrued?

    12. Meg Murry*

      Do you accrue vacation or is it given to you in a block at the beginning of the year? The 50% could be pro-rating since it’s only April now.

      1. Lauren*

        I get 144 hours (18 days) for the year. I can use it during the whole first month if I want to, but if going by earned (diff from accrual for Mass law) it breaks down to:

        Used 13 hours
        Earned through April = 48 hours
        That means I have 35 hours, but HR is only paying me 27.

    13. Pwyll*

      Massachusetts’ vacation and sick time payout laws are relatively new (specifically the sick time one) and are wicked complicated based on accrual schedules and such. It’s really going to depend on how the PA company’s sick and vacation policy is written (if they have a written policy) to determine how the accrual works.

      You may want to contact the Department of Labor Standards’ Wage and Hour Hotline. You’ll generally get a law student under the supervision of the general counsel, but s/he can explain to you more specifically how the accrual laws work. They can’t give you personalized legal advice, but I’ve found them helpful in summarizing how accrual payouts need to be structured. 617-626-6952. Just note that they’re not the enforcement agency in Massachusetts, they only interpret the statutes. If you need to make a complaint, you’d do that with the Attorney General’s office.

    14. Student*

      It’s not perfect, but one good way to think of the jurisdiction of things like this is to think about where you pay income taxes. You pay income taxes to the state where you do the work – Massachusetts in this case. That’s the state with applicable employment laws. You don’t pay income tax to PA because you aren’t subject to their rules.

      Taxes are complicated, so this doesn’t follow perfectly, but if you have to look up the relevant tax laws for a state to figure out how it’s handled then you should probably also consider the employment laws for that state.

  17. T3k*

    Just one more week to go and I won’t have to deal with these people anymore! I gave my boss just over a month’s notice and she only just posted the job opening earlier this week. I hope she realizes I don’t plan to drive all this way after my last day to train someone, so she better find someone so they can come in next week so I can show them what to do.

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      Congrats! She’s better figure it out, because it’s not on you once you’re gone.

    2. Over Development*

      My boss didn’t. I gave her the heads up I was looking then two weeks later the note that I had found a new job with four weeks notice.

      I am now three weeks into my new job and they still haven’t found someone. Instead she is relying on a temp and a part-time consultant…all while BLOWING UP my phone via text.

      1. T3k*

        Oh god. The sad part is, I can see my boss doing something very similar with my phone after my last day so I’ve devised an idea where, if she does call for help after my last day, I’ll tell her I’m now a freelancer and will therefore bump my rate up 3x what she pays me now (and that meets the average amount for a contractor rate, that’s how little she pays me).

        1. Rubyrose*

          Since you have direct experience in what she needs, I think you are more valuable than the average contractor. Make that 4x!

  18. Christy*

    I got to meet my bosses and my coworkers for the first time last week! It was awesome. Every remote team should do its best to get together and meet.

    And I’m not the only young one! My boss is only six years older than I am and I have a peer only four years older! It was a very fun trip. And I really feel like my boss has my back, which was really great.

  19. Golden Yeti*

    Hi, all. Quick update:

    I got a raise. Not my top number amazing raise, but one that’s enough to let me know the company is trying, and I’m okay with that. Thank you for the well wishes last week.

    I also got a title change. Not a promotion (same duties), but a change of title to something a little more accurate to what I actually do. This has me wondering now: should I just change my current job title on my resume, or treat it like a promotion even though it isn’t?

    Thanks!

    1. LanLinesareLosers*

      Did you have the same supervisor? If so I would have the entire job as one role – since your duties did not change.

      1. Golden Yeti*

        Yep–everything is exactly the same, just with a more impressive/comprehensive title. :)

    2. Bowserkitty*

      That happened to me. The new title had a “Senior” in it so I definitely changed it on my resume and made a note about “title change from BLANK to BLANK in Month/Year” in the notes.

      I added a new space on my resume for it but not sure if I should have?

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would list it as:

      New Title (start date-present)
      Old Title (start date-end date)
      – Job duties
      – Job duties

      No need to make a whole separate section for it, but I wouldn’t list the entire employment under the new title, since that would be misleading.

  20. Payrollcompanyrec?*

    Anyone have a payroll company that they recommend? We’re in the US, in Georgia, if that helps.

    We’ve thought about QuickBooks Payroll, but need the ability to have preprinted signatures on checks, which they don’t offer. (and not all of our employees are on DD, which is a whole different issue!)

    We’ve used Paychex in the past which was a rotating cast of payroll reps, and have also used PayPro. Anyone else that anyone would recommend?

      2. Kimberlee, Esq*

        I remember hearing bad things about ADP, but honestly I like their RUN system. I used it to run payroll at my last job.

        My current job uses Namely, and they really like it, but it’s a larger system than just payroll so it might be more than you need. But look into it!

      4. Meg Murry*

        I’ve worked multiple places that used ADP and I liked it as an employee (although I always used it in conjunction with direct deposit, not paper checks). No experience with it from the payroll side though.

        Do you have employees grandfathered in to not require direct deposit or similar? I haven’t worked anywhere in the last 10-15 years that didn’t require direct deposit for all new employees.

        1. LBK*

          Yes, I like ADP from the employee side. Not sure if that trumps concerns from the payroll side but maybe worth considering.

        2. Meg Murry*

          Oh, based on what others are saying I am remembering that at most of those places the PTO numbers on the ADP paystubs were often not correct – but I think that was 75% due to the way the company handled PTO and whether the data was entered correctly before the deadline, and 25% due to them just not bothering and handling PTO as a separate system outside of the paycheck. I’m pretty sure they had made it part of the training that go over with everyone that the PTO on the paycheck wasn’t necessarily correct and you had to go through your manager/HR to get the correct PTO balances.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      We do the full PEO with Insperity, which has a really amazing payroll team. They are expensive though, and I am not sure if they do payroll a la carte.

    3. S0phieChotek*

      This is jut my experience at my company, and I’ve only worked at the company for less than a year, but the company I work for uses Paychex, Inc. and so far they’ve not taken my taxes out correctly (though I noticed it right away and the peron in the appropriate department got it fixed for the next round) and just last week we got an email from HR saying Paychex had miscalculated all our PTO so we needed to mentally subtract X hrs. (Our HR has to keep a separate file of PTO, apparently, because Paychex makes enough mistakes with PTO that their number is not reliable. Which seems odd because we all get X, Y, or Z hours per pay period each time.)

      The other company I pick up hours from used ADP and they’ve never made a mistake (that I’ve experienced); and I find their online portal easy enough to log on to see hours, download forms, etc. (The one time I did not get paid correctly from ADP was my manager’s fault when she went into eh computer to edit punch-in/punch-outs and accidentally deleted my entire day.)

      Just my experiences.

    4. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      I interviewed at PayrollMaxx. They’re small, seemed like nice people. Didn’t hire me, so there is that… ;)

    5. In the Middle of a Payroll Change*

      OMFG, never go back to Paychex. They are the literal worst! I could write a rant to put the rest of the rant thread to shame about these people!

      We’re switching to Infinisource right now, so I can’t say for sure, but so far they’ve been great. The product looks amazing and way more user-friendly and modern. Paychex and ADP both have systems that they built years ago that just don’t work well with the way businesses run today.

    6. LQ*

      We used Paychex in my last job and it was the rotating cast for a while and then they screwed up 2 of our payrolls in a row. After that everything was great, and we had a great long term senior type person managing our account. But the whole, they screwed up 2 our of payrolls in a row, it was a HUGE problem, and there were only 2 of us working there at the time but it was a giant problem. If you’d still been with them I’d have said push to get a much more senior person on your account, but don’t return.

    7. Jadelyn*

      I would caution against Ultimate Software/UltiPro, too – our senior executive team has basically forced us to keep on with our transition to Ulti because they claim our issues are unusual according to reviews and maybe our implementation was poorly planned (which there’s some credence to because our initial account manager got fired halfway through), but tbh they’ve screwed up so much stuff so many times we’re all super sick of them and would rather go crawling back to ADP.

      1. lucyskybiscuits*

        I am surprized to see this about UltiPro. We just finished our implementation about 9 months ago and it has been great. All the Ulti staff were happy (seriously really happy people) and helpful and we had just come off an terrible accounting system implementation. I will say that the outside “expert” consultant that was hired to help left a lot to be desired.

    8. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      ADP is my recommendation. I’ve used them at multiple jobs and have never had issues with them in terms of the payroll side or the employee side.

      And yay, I’m in Georgia too!

      1. Observer*

        Unless something significant has changed, I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole.

        We used to use them and they NEVER contacted us about updates – the only time we ever heard about updates was when we had an issue and they told us that we needed to upgrade to do whatever. They are the ONLY company I have ever dealt with that acted this way.

        Then Sandy hit and our site was wiped out. Fortunately, we had good off-site backups and were able to arrange to get all of our stuff on hosted servers within days. However, it was then that we discovered that out ADP software was YEARS out of date, and that it wouldn’t work on the servers we had arranged. Ok, we’re desperate, we’ll pay whatever it takes, so we place the order – and we also pay (by credit card) for their assistance to do the installation. But, we can’t just get to it, because they don’t have the software available for download! OK, we’ll pay for overnight shipping. Fortunately, I had to call them back for something because it was only then that we discovered that they have NOT marked the CD for shipping that day (and no indication of when it would be shipped)!!! So, we got that taken care of, but really!? For a payroll company to not understand that payroll processing is HUGELY time sensitive it just jaw dropping.

        Then they refused to help us install the software. Our server was not “approved”. It was baloney, and fortunately we were able to call them on their baloney (they claimed technical issues – that didn’t exist) and we finally got it up and running. When I told our controller what had happened, that was the final push to move to a different payroll processor.

        They are not great, and I would not be sad to find a better processor, but I can’t imagine them pulling this stuff. The best part is that we did consider going back to ADP. We got a new rep who said all the right things, and they showed us the current on line version which was nice and also alleviates the issue of upgrades. So, our controller decided to test their system. That requires a dummy account, which was set up. After some testing she decided that it was not a good time to make the move and informed ADP that we’re not moving ahead – and please cancel the dummy account. It didn’t quite work out that way. It took several months – during which ADP started billing us, to get it straightened out.

    9. Pwyll*

      I’d try to find a local company, honestly. Found ADP to just be fine. Paychex was a nightmare, though. When I worked for a non-profit, we found out that they hadn’t remitted our payroll taxes to the government. When we called them on it, they responded “You’re tax exempt.” It was a nightmare to correct a year’s worth of payroll. And they were completely unapologetic about the whole thing.

      In case you’re curious, working for a non-profit does not make YOU tax exempt. Still baffling 10 years later.

      1. Observer*

        How did it take a year to find this out? If they weren’t taking the deductions of the paychecks, then it should have showed up immediately, and you should have caught it right away.

        On the other hand, if they WERE taking the deductions and just not remitting them, that’s flat out fraud.

    10. ILurkALot*

      I worked at Paychex for two+ years. Look, the problem with the Paychex and ADPs of the world is that they are volume based businesses and only know as much as you tell them. This often leads to several mistakes either because of questions they didn’t think to ask or information you didn’t think to provide.
      When I started there in 2012, they used to train you for two weeks on how to do payroll. That’s what you got, two weeks. If you live/work somewhere where there are locals (Ohio, PA), or unique payroll taxes (WA Worker’s Comp), you get no training on it from corporate. They don’t care, it’s not a big enough piece of the pie to matter.
      Honestly, I would suggest trying someone local. Many CPAs will work with you and a 3rd party payroll provider (like Paychex, ADP) to ensure that your payroll is set up correctly and continues to be processed correctly. Who helps you file your business returns/personal returns? I’d start with them.

      As far as big payroll companies, maybe give Paylocity a shot. But with all of them the most important thing is to make sure you are asking all the questions, READ YOUR REPORTS, and verify everything (independently if possible).

    11. Allison Mary*

      I don’t know how big your company is, but for smaller businesses, OnPay is great.

      http://www.payrollcenter.com/onpay/index.html

      I used to do volunteer bookkeeping for a very small nonprofit (only two actual employees), and before I came along, their previous bookkeeper had been doing payroll manually in a spreadsheet. I was pretty opposed to that, and luckily I got them to sign up with OnPay. I don’t do their bookkeeping anymore, but I still run their payroll through OnPay twice a month. It’s affordable and easy to use, and they’re very accessible by chat and phone for questions.

  21. Crash Kart*

    At least a few times a week, my supervisor holds surprise random checks of our workspace to see if we are currently doing what we’re supposed to be doing. We are told to freeze and stand up, while she checks our computer screen for web browsing and web history, and also looks at all of our outgoing calls. Any sign that you are doing anything but work, and you get berated in front of everyone. How do I deal with this? It’s making me ill.

    3. NoProfitNoProblem*

      Wow. That’s totally unreasonable.

      Is there any way you could approach this with your supervisor using a “this is interfering somewhat with our work productivity, would you consider cutting back” angle?

    5. Tsalmoth*

      Wow. Simply put, your boss is terrible. Unless you think he’ll be moving on soon, you REALLY want to get out of there.

    6. ZSD*

      Does it help you deal with it to at least have reassurance that this is insane? This is insane.
      Is your supervisor worried about her own job, perhaps? That doesn’t excuse her behavior, but I once had a supervisor who was always worried that she would be fired (and was, in fact, fired after I left), and she did a lot of inappropriate micromanaging, partly as a result of her insecurity.
      If that isn’t the reason, why is she doing this?
      I was going to say that you could perhaps have a discussion with her about why this is inappropriate, but then I realized that she’d probably just hear your words as, “I want to be on Facebook all day,” and she’d just police you more closely.

    7. Clever Name*

      That’s crazy. Your boss is unreasonable, and unless there are very compelling reasons for working there (like you make 6 figures, get 2 months of vacation, have amazing health benefits, can walk to work in 5 minutes, and they give free massages and puppies) I’d start a job search.

    8. Pontoon Pirate*

      That’s perfectly ridiculous. I’m sorry to say–because I know from current experience how much of an effort this is and how much is can suck–but you deal with it by finding a different job.

    12. Ms. Didymus*

      How do you deal with this?

      By finding a new job. This belies a shocking lack of trust (and weirdly paternal behavior pattern) in you and it is not something I would personally put up with if I could find other employment.

      This is just….wow.

    13. ACA*

      WTF? That is insane. I hope you’re either able to get a new supervisor or a new job soon. Good luck!

    14. LanLinesareLosers*

      Also you can set up your internet browser to auto-delete on exit. Just saying. The freeze with your hands up thing is just so … so like you are prisoner. That part alone is disgusting enough to make me leave.

    16. T3k*

      Heh, wouldn’t work if my boss did that. I have my browser set to delete all web history/cookies, when I close it. If she was smarter, she’d just install one of those web trackers that some employers are fond of instead of physically checking each computer.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Seriously! The worst part is how demeaning and disrespectful this is, but what’s really ridiculous is that this is TOTALLY the wrong way to improve productivity.

        The best option is to simply monitor productivity and address that without micromanaging, of course. But if someone feels the need for limiting calls and web surfing, there are much better technical solutions. You could just have firewall rules that limit the websites that people can visit to those necessary for work, or spot-check individual’s internet usage remotely. This way is ridiculous…there are plenty of apps that have panic or supervisor keys, single keystrokes that hide them, or you could just do what you said and use an incognito window and keep your fingers on Ctrl-Q.

    17. Ann Cognito*

      That’s crazy! No wonder you’re feeling ill – it’s not normal behavior that he’s subjecting you to. Have you and/or your colleagues brought it to anyone’s attention? If not, maybe you could speak up as a group to him directly, or if you’re too nervous of doing that, to his boss?

    18. Manager thoughts*

      Well, if you don’t want to feel ill about it and you don’t want to or can’t quit, another option is to see it as humorous. Whenever it happens, consider that this is your Monty Python moment. You might even hang a picture of John Cleese in your work space to remind you that when something is this absurd, perhaps all you can do is act like you are in a skit.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      Deal with it by telling yourself that this is a person who has absolutely NO confidence in their ability to manage people. She’s a duck out of water. She has no clue how to do her job. She uses management rules from the Stone Age.

      Does anyone get fired or do people just get screamed at? If they just get screamed at then tell yourself that it’s all show and nothing else.

      And start or beef up your job search.

    20. Jadelyn*

      That is, frankly, harassment. Not in the legal sense, unfortunately (since it’s not based on a protected class) but if you work somewhere like California which now includes bullying in the list of things your company can get in trouble for allowing, there might be something to pursue there. Out of curiosity, does your manager’s manager know she does this?

    21. Florida*

      As everyone else mentioned, this is crazy, but that doesn’t help you deal with it. The way I would deal with it would be with humor. When the boss came in, I would hold my hands out like a TSA search and say something like, “At least our office doesn’t have the full-body x-ray machines yet.” Or maybe put your hands on the wall like a police frisk, “I never thought my work as a (job title here) would require this many searches.” I would use humor to point out the absurdity of it.
      Is this the BEST way to handle it? I don’t know. It’s just what I would do. I have the type of personality where I can usually get away with dorky humorous stuff. It also depends on the personality of your boss as to whether or not this would work.
      I’m sorry you have to deal with this type of environment. I’m sure your boss thinks this makes people more productive, but I would bet money that it makes people more resentful and in turn, less productive.

    22. Turtle Candle*

      WOW. I found this ridiculous when I was in seventh grade (mostly because it was like, you KNOW which kids are messing around when they should be working; don’t humiliate all of us just because you can and because it seems somehow ‘fairer’ than just talking to the messer-arounders). As an adult, yiiiiiiikes.

    23. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Ew. So she’s basically telling you that she doesn’t trust you. You could try saying “can you help me understand why these checks are necessary?” (or something to that effect) to see if it helps her realize why it’s not. But that’s poor management on her part, in my opinion.

    25. Brett*

      Totally unreasonable.
      All of those things can be easily audited for misuse without her spot checks.
      If you really are not supposed to be doing anything other than work, then IT should be filtering websites and outgoing calls instead of using this shaming system.

    26. Joanna*

      It seems very unlikely that this is about checking for unauthorised activity. They could easily look at your web history or phone records outside of work hours or directly from the server without interrupting you. This seems to me to be an intimidation tactic designed to make people paranoid.

    27. Observer*

      As others have mentioned, this should not be necessary, even if she had some reason to think something was going on. Which makes me wonder if she’s on the same page as her supervisor(s) / HR/ IT or anyone else up the command chain.

      Is there any way you can raise this with someone above her or HR?

  22. LanLinesareLosers*

    My company has weird titles and I was promoted to a system administrator role. There was a huge salary fiasco and they actually cut my pay pretty significantly after I accepted.

    Now I see they have posted another role with my title, except they are putting in parenthesis next to it (System Analyst).

    Does anyone have advice on how I advertise my role on my resume? Does it need to be consistent with how they are advertising the role in the job ad? Even though it was advertised as a system administrator when I applied?

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      I know people who include a more industry recognized titles in parentheses on their resume after their official title.

      If you company has odd titles, including the more recognized title too makes sense.

    2. bluesboy*

      Personally I would stick with what it said when you applied. Unless they tell you otherwise, that’s presumably what HR has for you, so if someone at a potental future employer reaches out to them you know the titles will match.

      Also some people overreach with job titles ‘I do more or less the same as Debbie and she’s ‘Senior’ so I must be Senior too…’ without considering all the other things that poor Debbie has to deal with. Stick with what you applied for and you can never be accused of trying to stretch it.

      Of course this doesn’t help those poor people who get 3 promotions without ever actually getting a title change so they’re managing 20 people and a million dollars but are still technically Assistant Junior Trainee. But it doesn’t sound like your situation.

      Of course, you could always ask? If you’re worried it’ll sound like you’re looking for a new job you could just say you’re thinking of getting some business cards printed/need your official title for some kind of insurance documentation or suchlike.

      The title on my contract is sooooo different from what I do…but I live in a country where nobody EVER checks references so it really isn’t an issue…

    3. SAHM*

      I think Allison has addressed this before, you put your current title and then list your duties, all the sys admin computer fun stuff you do, or I think (and I believe I could be wrong) you list your current title and in parenthesis put (Mac Systems Admin) or what-have-you.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I have some weirdo titles, so I just try to make it really clear in the text under the official title, so if they call HR, my resume aligns with their records. So it says:
      Teapot Administrator (dates)
      Managed teapot supply chain for blah blah blah

    5. LanLinesareLosers*

      I appreciate all the replys, but I clearly did not do a good job stating my question.

      I am in the WackyTitle role. When it was sold to me it was sold as “System Administrator.” The recently posted a new job for WackyTitle in a different group. Same job description. However they now have posted it as WackyTitle (System Analyst).

      I’m worried that my resume, which says WackyTitle (System Administrator) will look like a stretch if they search my company and see the open WackyTitle (System Analyst) position. Is this something I should worry about?

      1. Jules the First*

        Having held a job where my actual title was ‘Resident Genius’, I hear you on the wacky titles! Is your job description closer to a system analyst or a system administrator? If the job overlaps both, I would use “WackyTitle (System Administrator/Analyst)” and then explain, if questioned, that WackyTitle encompassed both roles at WeirdCorp.

        1. LanLinesareLosers*

          Well I don’t manage the SQL or DB maintenance since a 3rd party does all of that for us (very common in my industry). However I am the internal “owner” of the system. I’m responsible for insuring it is compliance with our regs, that there are process controls in place to insure adequate security around accounts, and I manage the 3rd party relationship as well as act as the liason for our system to all departments. If something breaks inside our system (think configuration of an interface) that the 3rd party does not own I role out of bed on Saturday morning and fix it with guidance from our 3rd party system owner.

          1. SAHM*

            That sounds more System Administrator role rather than System Analyst. I have only fringe knowledge as hubby is/was the Sys Admin (before they bumped him to Manager) and it sounds very much what he did/what his team does now. Brb

  23. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

    I’m asking this for my husband. He was on a 3 person team that’s part of IT, DH, Fergus (also on his level), and Jamie, their boss. Fergus used to be in a different department but left it because of one guy he didn’t like, Dougal. Dougal got fired last week and they asked Fergus if he wanted to move back, which he did. Then on Friday afternoon, Jamie put in his two week notice. On Monday HR told Jamie that he didn’t need to finish out his two weeks and he’s now gone. So DH went from a 3 person department to a 1 person department. He plans to apply for Jamie’s old role, as he says if he doesn’t, he’ll end up training that person anyway. Right now DH is hourly and the manager role would be salaried. Assuming he gets it, how much of a salary bump should he try to negotiate for? We’re in a small Midwestern city, not on the coasts, but they do have a hard time filling IT roles. On Glassdoor I’m seeing salaries almost twice what he makes now but I doubt that he’ll get that much of a bump. He does have several years of experience, but only an A.A.S. degree, if that matters. Regardless of how his role shakes out, the other two positions would be back filled eventually anyway.

    1. themmases*

      I would negotiate based on the market rate for the position regardless of what he makes now. The pay he earned in a different, lower level job is not really relevant to what a different role is worth. I can see why it will feel awkward since the company would know what a big bump it is for your husband, but that doesn’t change what the work is worth. Being a known quantity who already knows the work and the department is worth more money, not less– especially in an areas like IT where institutional knowledge can be very important.

      If he can, your husband should try to find out what the band is for that job within his own company. Unless a specific degree is required for the job, he should use experience to decide how high up in the band to ask. He should be able to just ask if he gets to that stage. If his company assigns job grades with pay bands, he could also use Glassdoor to look at not only that specific job, but the pay reported by employees whose jobs are listed in the same band. (My old company always put the band, a letter of the alphabet, on job ads even though it meant nothing to outsiders).

    2. Zahra*

      Is your husband in contact with Jamie? Could he say, “I’m thinking of applying to your old role. Glassdoor says average pay in the region is X$. Does that seem reasonable to you, regardless of how much of a bump it would be from my current salary? Is there anything in the total compensation that I should consider asking as well? (More PTO, more telecommuting opportunities, etc.)” Note that he’s not asking what Jamie was earning, just his opinion on a fair compensation for the position. Said fair compensation, considering your husband’s experience, may be lower than Jamie’s or similar.

    3. Peggy*

      Make sure the new salary at least covers whatever extra he was making with overtime; the promotion shouldn’t be a pay cut.

    4. SAHM*

      +1 on the overtime/paycut that Peggy mentions. Definitely negotiate for the industry standard, unless you’re willing to get the job just for the title and in a year or so apply to other companies so you can have the appropriate salary for the position. Last Company gave Hubby a promotion in name only, no raise (after 7 years of working his way from desktop support to sys admin) , within a year he had jumped ship and made 2x as much. But he didn’t want to work for Last Company much more anyway, they were a terrible company. We’re much happier with New Job.

  24. AnonForThis*

    So I readhttp://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html linked in another post and whoa. Mind blown. This could have been based on a fly on the wall account of my office. It’s given me the kick I need to make a formal plan to get out, not least because it listed pretty much every reason I didn’t get out years ago!

    My particular difficulty is that I am a good friend of my boss outside of work. His “sick system” behaviour exists in our friendship as well. This makes everything ten times more fraught.

    Has anyone here escaped a sick system with their sanity intact? Any tips as to how to do it? I gather this is going to be a no-contact situation when I make it out, with the friend as well as the colleague, and I’m somewhat terrified of the prospect…

    1. neverjaunty*

      Understand that it’s going to be difficult. You’re ripping off the band-aid here and that will hurt, but it’s worse if you don’t do it.

      Understand that you are going to have regrets. There will be lots and LOTS of times where you think ‘maybe this is a mistake’ or ‘Fergus isn’t so bad, really’ or feel like maybe you’re betraying your friend and your co-workers.

      Also recommend reading Captain Awkward, which has fantastic scripts on dealing with and extricating yourself from toxic people.

      1. AnonForThis*

        If it helps, Fergus is the only one of my co workers I care for so I have no qualms about abandoning them! I’m not a big fan of Captain Awkward, even though my Office is Full of Evil Bees. I mean essentially I have a Darth Vader boss but my line of “this is the price of admission is very different from hers. Partly because I can be a Darth Vader too.

        Right now I feel like I’m Alan Shore and I’m about to tell Denny Crane we can’t be friends anymore.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Even so, sick systems are good at messing up your sense of what’s correct and what your feelings are – otherwise nobody would stay in them. It’s REALLY common for people who wouldn’t piss on Wakeen if he were on fire to do an emotional 180 later and think ‘well, maybe he wasn’t so bad’.

          But if that doesn’t happen (and yay if it doesn’t!), then just run over that bridge as fast as you can before you blow it up behind you.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Even in dysfunctional families the victims can become the abusers. And part of the reason is because in order to survive we have to mimic what THEY (the abusers) are doing.

          As part of your escape plan, decide to read things that are either positive or instructive. Yeah, I am gonna say keep reading AAM because it’s a good idea. Boundaries books would be great for this purpose also, these books would help you take back your sense of right and wrong. You still have it by the way, I hope you realize that and when you get out that sense will come flooding back to you.

          When I was at my “downest” I read a lot of Chicken Soup books. I was desperate to find stories of people actually being kind to one another.

          And of course you can talk about it here on this open forum if that is helpful.

          As you break the tie line/strings, not everything that happens next will be bad. Please hang on to this thought. Wouldn’t it be nice to get up in the morning feeling like you got some rest? Hey, it’d probably be great to actually have an appetite for dinner too right? Stuff like this that has been gone from your life will start coming back.

          Life has an ebb and flow. When we get rid of toxic people from our lives some how doors open and we suddenly meet new and interesting people. This will happen to you, too. Trust the give and take of life.

          1. AnonForThis*

            Great great advice. I come from a dysfunctional family and part of why it took so long to get to this point. Boundaries? What are those? Ha!

    2. Anonymously Yours*

      Yep. No contact worked for me. Think through what that means to you and prepare yourself for it. I could afford to torch my bridges, so I did – no going back. Develop friendships outside now, if you can, it sucks to go through it alone – but you can do that, too, if you have to. Read that link as often as you need to, to remember why you’re doing it. When you do it, there will be a void in your time and your social circle – think about how you’re going to fill that. Hobbies are good. If you have access to therapy, it’s really helpful – and don’t just assume you can’t afford it or that it’s a big step you don’t need…it’s just talking to someone who is really good at listening, and a few sessions are a lot better than nothing. My change ultimately involved a move to another state – not necessary, but I found that it felt more normal to feel torn out by the roots and a little lost when I was in a new setting and had to find new things to do and new friends no matter what.

    3. themmases*

      Yes– just start taking steps, any steps. You may be genuinely surprised by how much easier and faster it is than you might have thought.

      When you reach out to normal people in normal situations, the normalcy and seemingly easy appreciation can be exciting enough to keep you going on to the next step and the next. I moved up my grad school plans by a couple of years when my old job finally crossed the line and the process was very validating– I’d assumed I wouldn’t be that competitive because I wasn’t being rewarded where I was. I found out pretty quickly that my skills that were totally discounted and taken advantage of at my job distinguished me to others and that these other places wanted me. It was so motivating!

      Once you start getting exposed to appreciation and interest from the outside, it becomes a lot easier to see how insulting your current treatment is.

      I had to keep up occasional contact with that boss and I just was nice to her face but without ever expressing interest or inviting further contact after whatever conversation. I have to see her next month at a work event most likely. She likes to say she hopes I’ll come back or maybe I could consult. I thank her like she paid me any other compliment and then never get in touch. Personally I would keep the friend boss happy until finding a new job, then arrange to grow apart.

      1. themmases*

        Oooh and I forgot to add– start getting any other source of engagement and validation outside your work. Pick back up any hobbies you’ve let go (especially creative hobbies and exercise, they are very mentally healthy). Find professional development that is just for you and doesn’t necessarily benefit your employer.

        For example I actually found my old job very interesting (medical research and research ethics). But I resolved to stop giving them my best stuff anymore for them to just waste or ignore. I started a blog where I wrote about those topics instead, many of which did not relate directly to our work– they developed me and only me. I used a post from that blog as a writing sample that got me called back for my next job in less than a day after I submitted it. :)

        1. AnonForThis*

          Hobbies are not a problem! I play sport at a high level and I truly love my team. One of my first warning signs about this place was that I sometimes I had to skip training in order to work.

    4. TootsNYC*

      is there a reason you want to be “good” friends with someone who uses the “sick system” approach (whether instinctive or well thought out) in your FRIENDSHIP?

      It would be one thing if he acted a bit differently outside work; or if you weren’t that good of friends.

      But if he gets so upset that you lose him as a friend–is that a good thing, or a bad thing?

      1. AnonForThis*

        I enjoy his company a lot. If he was a loony tunes friend who was prone to unpredictable outbursts of craziness or disappearing acts, it wouldn’t overly bother me – I’m prone to those behaviors myself. But there was an Inciting Incident recently which followed up by that article, has made me realise the continued work relationship is probably impossible.

        If the same thing had happened with a regular friend, I’d flip the bird, we wouldn’t talk for a month, and then we’d be fine. Can’t really happen like that at work though…

    5. Observer*

      If this behavior is also in your friendship, it means that you really need to end that, too.

  25. Bowserkitty*

    One of the newer admins here has, over the half year I’ve been here, been forwarding me solicitation. The first time she sprung them to me in person at my desk. (Two hotel salespeople looking to get our business for conferences.) Just today I was cold-forwarded a call from somebody peddling a free magazine subscription renewal for my boss, and I had no idea what it was about being new, and they wouldn’t give me any more details. When I was asked for the first letter of the place I was born, I shut it down and said “you don’t need that” and refused to talk to them more. One of my other coworkers suggested I bring it up to the admin’s boss because they shouldn’t be transferring on anything like that.

    This woman has already had bad run-ins with her boss and I’m not sure I want to get her in trouble but at the same time I do NOT want to keep getting these things. I’m probably going to talk to her boss soon but am I doing the right thing? I just plan on saying “hey, does Liv Moore know we shouldn’t even be entertaining these things?”

    Bawwwww…

    1. Delyssia*

      Have you tried talking to the admin directly first? If not, I’d recommend that as the first step.

      1. Bowserkitty*

        Clearly I am not caffeinated enough because I didn’t even consider that. Thanks. :) If she gives me any pushback should I then speak to her boss? This woman only has four months of seniority on me so I worry if she tries to assert that.

        1. Delyssia*

          If the admin pushes back, or if she agrees at the time but continues to forward you sales calls, then I think it’s absolutely fine to bring it up to her boss at that point.

      2. Ama*

        Yeah, I’d just go talk to her. Possible reasons that she could be doing this (things I’ve encountered with other new admins):
        -She doesn’t think she has the authority to decide whether a call is legit
        -She thinks you are the person who is supposed to handle these calls/the last person in your position wanted all solicitation calls forwarded
        -She’s having trouble telling the difference between a legit call and a sales call
        -She has a hard time telling people no

        The first two can be pretty easily cleared up with a quick conversation. The second two may require a little more coaching, and at that point you may need to loop her boss in if it seems like she needs more help than you can/should provide.

        1. Bowserkitty*

          I think more than likely it may be one of the first two, so thank you for this perspective! :) I love this blog. I would have gone straight to her manager so I’m glad I asked.

    2. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Sales people can be sneaky and sometimes they can make it sound like they know you. For example when I was an receptionist, I had one sales guy who said “Can I speak to (boss’ first name)?” and when I asked who was calling they told me it was a friend of my boss’s from her previous job – and they knew the name of her former employer. I was still fairly new (but probably still should have known better!) and I put the call through. They have their sneaky was! So yes, just talk to the admin first and let her know. If things don’t get resolved then sure, you can always speak to her boss.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t know if this person is new to the world of work or not. When I was new someone had to tell me to take a name and number and message. Then tell the caller,”If the boss is interested she will call you back.”

      This is how to get the idea of who is calling and what they want, I was told. Then my mentor went on to say there are certain calls we never respond to and gave examples.

      Yes, I had to be told this, it was not immediately apparent to me. Once it was explained, that was the end of it. I never did it again.

  26. Anon Today*

    I have an upcoming performance review. For the last year, I’ve been actively job searching to get out for a variety of reasons. I don’t plan on bringing this up, but I also don’t plan on asking for a raise when I could be leaving within a few weeks (or it could be a few years at this rate, who knows — fingers crossed). Will it raise red flags if I don’t ask about a raise?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I don’t know, but if you have no firm plans to leave, why not ask about a raise?

      Every performance review I’ve been a part of, though, raises have been brought up by my manager and not me.

      1. Anon Today*

        Interesting. I just feel so…dishonest about it? I’d feel uncomfortable accepting it when I’ve been so eager to get out. Like, it would be a show of bad faith. I’m too honest a person (especially when it comes to guilt/myself — it’s a problem; I’m working on it). Plus, I’m a little concerned it will make accepting a lower-paying position more difficult for me, especially when I’m desperate to leave but I live in one of the more expensive areas in the country and student loans will be due soon and a little more money would be so nice.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          I feel you, I do. But you’ve earned the raise with the work you’ve done, right? And you might be there a while yet. If you’re worried about getting used to the extra money, set up an automatic transfer of the “excess” into a savings account – or better yet, if you’re on direct deposit, have payroll split your check for you.

        2. ThatGirl*

          Personally I would not feel bad about getting a raise — you don’t know how long your job search will take, and there are ways to avoid talking about salary for a new job, or just flat out saying you’re willing to take a pay cut if you truly are. (Personally, I also wouldn’t be looking for a paycut, especially if you’ll be struggling to pay your student loans on your current income, but I understand that desperate times call for desperate measures?) If you deserve to be paid more where you are, you deserve it, regardless of how much longer you’ll be there.

    2. S0phieChotek*

      I’m pretty new to the corporate/business world, but if it’s traditional to ask for a raise and you think your work deserves it, I would ask.

      A higher salary would put you in a better place to negotiate for salary for your next job, and plus you would make more money as you continue to look.

      Getting a new job takes time and effort and as long as you do well in your current job, I don’t see why you can’t get paid for it. Unless you actually have a job offer in hand, I would ask — job searches can take longer than anticipated and having a higher salary (if asked about previous salary) is good too.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      You never know how long a job search will take. Ask for the raise if you’ve earned it. Don’t feel bad if you get a new job after you get the raise.

      1. justsomeone*

        I have been putting off scheduling my annual review for a similar reason, and this was the push I needed to actually schedule it. So what if I get an offer next week? I can at least get a couple of weeks at a higher pay from my current employer. I’ve only managed to take money out of my own pocket at this point.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          OMG, I am totally kicking myself right now. Today is my last day at my current job. I gave my notice the same day I was supposed to get my (way overdue) annual review, and the review never happened – I didn’t care because I didn’t really want to know how much I was leaving on the table by taking the new job. But I just realized that I may have just opted out of MONTHS of retroactive pay.

    4. Anon Today*

      Thanks, all. I hadn’t considered these perspectives and am feeling a lot less guilty about the prospect of it now — of course, it may come to nothing (though, frankly, I’d be a bit surprised if it wasn’t offered given the feedback I’ve received). I appreciate it!

      1. Shell*

        So it looks like others have convinced you, but I’ll add my own story.

        At my previous job, I had my yearly review, we talked about my increased duties, and I asked for a raise (and they granted it after talking it over). About a month later, I’d handed in my resignation as my current job made me an offer (due to networking connections, basically everything to do with my current job’s offer happened over the Christmas holidays so it came as a surprise to me too). I felt bad about it, but I had no idea I would even interview or get an offer so quickly after the raise, and if I were to be doing my previous job with the expanded duties I’d absolutely want that raise.

        You can’t predict the future, and if your current bosses are reasonable I think they’d understand that sometimes things happen out of nowhere. Good luck!

  27. Elsa*

    How should I negotiate salary for a promotional move from c-suite exec support (one principal plus ad-hoc general office admin support to a staff of 18) to CEO exec support (1 principal, no staff support)? The varying factors are:
    1. new organization (so new benefits structure and pricing related to benefits)
    2. may be in the suburbs (current location) or downtown in a Midwest large city
    3. I would have increased costs related to adding public transportation to my monthly expenses

    “soft negotiations” that are important to me are:
    1. flex scheduling/telecommuting (shouldn’t be an issue with CEO, new HR dept may take pause)
    2. keeping my current paid time off/vacation days if not increasing (at current organization I will be at 18 PTO days next year, based on my full professional work history, I should be at 25 PTO days). Which should I start with?

    What is a good “first offer” for a promotional role? 30% increase of current salary? 40%? The industry would be similar and I would have a decently high amount of negotiating power but also don’t want to “shoot too high”. I also want to ensure that I’m not lowballing myself by missing a negotiation point. How should I organize my negotiation points so that I don’t negotiate and receive a higher base salary, only to have that eaten up by increased benefits costs and such?

    Thank you!

    1. EA*

      Does the new job know your current salary?

      I wouldn’t base anything off what you make now. I would look up with CEO exec support make in your area. (I am in a large area in the northeast, and depending on number of years experience, its 70k-100k a year, depending on industry, size of company, yada yada yada)

      I would ask for PTO stuff first, and then after you have that, suggest X amount of money, while also wanting to consider flex time and work from home.

      1. Elsa*

        New job knows “close enough” and coincidentally my current base plus 30% would be the average salary for the new role (for both a city and suburbs position).

        I know that flex time/work from home won’t be an issue but I want to be able to shape my thoughts around that a bit more (I’m torn between a 3 day in the office/2 day at home scenario or a 5 day in the office but reduce “in office” time and working early morning/evening in order to maintain daily presence).

        In negotiating though, should I be asking for the 30% (and I just keep using that because it does happen to fall in line with the average salary of the new job so it’s a reasonable number I think) and then additional adjustment for healthcare coverage? I don’t know how the new company has their healthcare structured so my concern is asking and receiving the 30% and then having that all eaten up with increased healthcare premium costs.

        Do you (the general you) typically break up your compensation package negotiation in order to accommodate for possible increases in healthcare and commuting costs? I want to assume yes but not sure at all. I am the preferred candidate and I think I have a lot of negotiating room but don’t want to shoot so high that even if the CEO goes for it, HR has fits over it. I mean I’m pretty sure that if I’m top candidate for a CEO that HR may show some flexibility as long as I’m not asking for the moon and back again.

        1. Zahra*

          Don’t ask for 30% + healthcare adjustment. Ask for the health insurance information: coverage, deductibles, premiums (the portion that you’re expected to pay, at least). Then negotiate the whole thing. I think that’s what Alison would suggest.

          1. Elsa*

            Ok thanks! I likely wouldn’t ask for it broken out like that but I should definitely consider the entire compensation package. So with that, are there any critical points that I’m missing from the items I should consider?

            My other random question is that I’m not fully vested yet in my current company’s 401k which means that if I leave prior to the vesting date I would lose the company match that I’ve been earning on. Is that ever a consideration point for those of you who have left prior to becoming fully vested? Or do you just consider that company match portion a “loss”?

  28. Anonymous Cheech*

    TLDR: Will failing a pre-employment drug test for company A be reported to company B or company C if B is a child company of companies A and C?

    Last fall, I accepted the offer of a job at company A starting this summer. Conditional to my employment was passing a drug test. I had been an almost daily user of edible marijuana for about a year prior to that point (it helped my anxiety loads, roughly 10 mg per day of THC). In late September, I went cold turkey with the MJ, only lapsing twice: on Thanksgiving and New Years I smoked a little with friends. I have to be responsible, right? I never really needed it but if I don’t use MJ I am drinking almost every night, which I think is worse for my body and brain.

    ANYWAY, recently, I was told it was time to take the drug test- no problem! I’ve been clean of chronic use for almost 7 months and the last single use was almost 4 months ago. I went in and took it and about a week later, they called and said I needed to come in and take it again. They wouldn’t tell me why. I did of course, but I’m really worried about the whole situation. There are 3 major companies I want to work for: A, B, and C. A and C got together and had B, so I’m worried that if I fail this pre-employment screen at A it will hurt my chances at B since they’re related, or even at C. Does anyone know about whether that’s the case?

    I don’t truly think it’s reading THC-COOH in my urine. It might be that I drank too much water, I fumbled my initials a little on the tape on the sample, or the fact that I ate a ton of poppy seed crackers the night before. My wife smokes every day in our basement but I don’t think it would affect me that much. It’s just a hit or two- not hot boxing the place.

    1. Pwyll*

      I’m not sure what you mean by child company. If you mean they’re all subsidiaries of a common parent company, the answer is “maybe.” It will really depend on how centralized their HR departments are. If you mean company A and company C have entered into a joint venture to create entirely separate company B, it’s still possible, but I’d think fairly improbable that they’re sharing drug testing info. Seems like an unnecessary risk the companies would take, to me.

      I won’t get too soap boxy, and I’m pretty much entirely for recreational legalization, but the tone of your comment seems a bit off to me. Please try to see a physician for your anxiety, if you aren’t already. Anxiety is no joke, and using substances without at least some guidance from a physician can be dangerous (personal experience there). Sounds like you’ve made positive steps in your life, but please take care of yourself! :)

      Also, it’s fairly common for drug test results to be inconclusive for no reason at all and for them to be redone, so it’s certainly possible this is all just a testing/paperwork error.

    2. Ashley*

      I seriously doubt you tested positive after that amount of time. I’m also a former chronic MJ user, only socially now, and I always was clean for urine tests in 1-2 weeks.

  29. NoProfitNoProblem*

    Are there any epidemiologists out there?

    I’m kinda at a crossroads in my career. I’m in my first job after graduating with a B.S. in public health, where I mostly do health communications. I find myself really liking it, but I always thought about going back to school for epidemiology.

    Is there anyone in that field now who can tell me what it’s like? Job prospects, what kind of offices and organizations can I expect to work in, what are reputable schools, what are hours and workloads like, do you enjoy your job? Can you switch fields easily with epidemiology experience? What kind of person is best suited for epidemiology? Am I even asking the right questions?

    I tried to google but there are some things that I really just need to hear from someone real about.

    1. the_scientist*

      Hi! there are a couple of us on this board, actually :)

      I guess my question is- what do you envision yourself doing as an epidemiologist? What captivates you about the field? Do you enjoy statistics/math? Developing innovative statistical methodologies? Writing software code to translate a methodology into data? Study design? Do you like health promotion? Policy? Communication?

      The reason I ask, is because I think it’s worth thinking about whether Public Health (i.e. an MPH) or pure epi is the better path, as well as what specifically you’d like to focus in. Generally speaking (VERY generally speaking), a MPH focuses more on health promotion, health policy, and health communications. Usually you do a practicum or two, and a capstone project, as opposed to a master’s thesis. Some schools let you do an MPH with a specialization in epidemiology/nutrition/etc. An epidemiology masters degree is much more research-focused. It’s about study design, methodology, research best practices, statistics, and programming, and you need to write and defend a master’s thesis. As a bonus, you can usually (in Canada, anyway) get a stipend for a masters in Epi. I got my graduate degree FOR FREE.

      Most Epi and MPH graduates in Ontario end up working in the public sector- provincial or federal government, public health agencies, hospitals or local public health units. Epi grads also often work for research programs, as study coordinators or analysts. People who are rockstars with statistics and SAS/R programming can get *extremely* lucrative private sector jobs- after all, math is math, right?

      One thing I will mention, is that it can be very difficult to get a full-time permanent position in this field. Most positions are temporary contracts that may or may not lead to permanent positions. Depending on the organizations, contract employees still can access benefits and paid vacation (and the holy grail, the defined-benefit pension plan) but it really depends on the employer.

      For more about my personal background, I have a BSc in molecular biology/genetics and an MSc in epidemiology. My graduate research was in mental health and I now work in cancer epi. Most of my work is around performance management, program evaluation, and communication. I basically take data and figure out how to explain it to people, and what it means from a policy and program performance perspective. I’m strong in writing, study design, and data interpretation, but I’m not a statistician or particularly skilled SAS programmer.

    2. I've read that study!*

      As an allied field, you can also look into industrial hygiene. You can enter this field with a public health degree, although most industrial hygienists have a masters. The field covers everything from chemical use to bloodborne pathogens and much more. You can work with written programs and management or do or more technical stuff like air, noise, and radiation testing. Work is available in many industries, including healthcare, construction, and oil and gas. Health of workers is regulated, so businesses have need for these services. You could also work for a government agency, such as OSHA or MSHA if you like regulation or NIOSH if you like research. Similar agencies exist in countries outside of the United States (where the field is often called occupational hygiene).

    3. themmases*

      Hi! I’m finishing up an MS in epi right now and starting a PhD in cancer epi in the fall. I’m in a large Midwestern city and I can share a bit about my own research before I decided to do this, how epidemiologists spend our time, and what I see going on in the market around me.

      As an epidemiologist you’re kind of the bridge between research methods that can be quite complex, and the public. It’s like your job is word problems. You need to translate a real world problem such as “how long do people with colorectal cancer liver in my state?” to a study design that can answer it, data collection and management, and an analysis plan that will usually involve mathematical modeling and maybe other stuff as well, such as secondary or spatial analyses. Then you need to put all that back in public health (i.e. layperson) terms while somehow being clear about where your answer comes from and its limitations. Statistical programming is a huge part of the job, and using those programs to manage your data. Good communication skills are very important but honestly, we vary in how good we actually are and clear communicators are prized.

      I love my job (a research assistantship at my school, plus my thesis work). I use geographic and cancer registry data to try to figure out small area cancer rates and how our local transportation system is affecting survival. A fun day for me involves building a database, writing a program in SAS, mapping cancer rates in ArcMap, and writing up just enough to get my point across. :) I picked this field because I coordinated medical research and was enjoying the study design and data management parts and wanted to be more involved. I could see that I would need clinical skills or analytic skills to get ahead in that field so I picked the most analytic area I thought I could thrive in.

      In the US it’s not common for masters students to be offered funding with admission, especially MPH students because it’s a professional degree. However I had no trouble finding an assistantship once I was in and only ended up paying for one semester and some fees. Your relevant work experience will definitely help you there. In terms of choosing a school, pick a CEPH accredited one if you’re in the US. Ideally, pick somewhere with a full school of public health and other health related schools too such as medical or nursing– you will have more opportunities for jobs and collaboration.

      Public health is growing but in the US at least unstable government funding is holding it back. Many epidemiologists work for some level of government, in a school of public health, or for an organization or project that is grant funded. When I choose this path the BLS projected us to grow faster than most jobs… We’ve been downgraded to average growth since then because the federal government and state governments often don’t adequately fund science and public health. An epi degree can set you up for a good plan B in pharma, data science, or GIS analysis to name the ones I am more familiar with, but you need to be clear what your preferences are and be strategic about which extra skills you gain.

      Epidemiology is really research methods for human health. If you want the skills but aren’t sure about being a researcher yourself, you could do an MPH with an epi concentration and you will come out with the core skills, a practicum, and more well rounded exposure to the other areas of public health. If you do an MS you will gain a deeper knowledge of just epi and biostats, and do a research thesis. Either would qualify you for a PhD if you decide later that you definitely do want to be an independent researcher, but the MPH is more practice oriented.

      1. I've read that study!*

        You mention funding affecting research jobs, and that is a good point. Every year, Obama proposes cuts to the National Institutes of Health in his budget proposal. Instead of providing new funding for zika research, funding is being pulled from ebola. On the industry side, the Dow-DuPont merger means major cuts to R&D, and while that is in chemicals, it demonstrates a corporate trend that extends into pharmaceuticals. If OP really wants to do research, they probably need a PhD to even compete for the limited number of jobs.

    4. NoProfitNoProblems*

      Thanks so much! This is really helpful. I’m going to save this thread and chew over the comments a bit.

  30. NonBossyBoss*

    Folks, is it worth correcting misinformation in someone’s LinkedIn profile? Context: Our former Toxic Employee lists an extra year of employment here (claiming to have started a full year earlier). I know there’s a form where I can file a correction, but if I do, what’s the process? Will Toxie get contacted? Will they know I’m the person who contacted LinkedIn? Is it worth the drama and hassle?

    1. Clever Name*

      Why does it matter? My old boss lists himself as “VP” at his new job, but when I searched the website of his new company (I’m nosy), he’s listed as a geologist. I just laugh about it.

      1. S0phieChotek*

        It could be an unintentional error.
        Also I would think that would be caught in employment verification when former employee applies for new jobs? If far enough back, it might not matter anyway? I get it is annoying but unless somehow it directly affects your employment, I’m not sure it’s worth getting involved?

        Others might have better opinion and more sage advice.

      2. NonBossyBoss*

        Honestly? Mainly schadenfreude. This person was REALLY toxic, and I just hate the idea of them pretending we put up with them for longer than we did. I’m pretty sure it’s not an accident — they had to change the date of their previous job to make the claim about the one with us.

    2. Kasia*

      People don’t generally put much stock into LinkedIn and it certainly wouldn’t be the only place they get their information on a new hire from, so I would just laugh it off. Not worth the effort

    3. LanLinesareLosers*

      I would say don’t bother. I’m also curious why you are perusing toxic ex-employees LinkedIn. Is it for schadenfreude or are you actively trying to prevent their future employment anywhere?

      1. Jules the First*

        I usually drop ex-staff one message saying ‘I notice you haven’t updated your LinkedIn recently’ in case it was a genuine oversight, but the only time I’ve actually taken action was when someone exaggerated her role and claimed someone else’s work, and that someone let me know they’d been challenged about it in an interview (Jane did the project alone, but because Wakeen also claimed it on LinkedIn, an interviewer called Jane a liar)

        1. LanLinesareLosers*

          The interviewer who called Jane a liar was completely out of line. However Jane learned that that person is a jerk – so in essence this was a good thing.

          I do not think you should track ex-staff and send them messages. That is just weird. It also doesn’t help Jane or your current staff any. Just let it go.

          1. Jules the First*

            For the record, I don’t track them forever – just once, a couple of months after they leave us. Generally, I ignore LinkedIn untruths, with the one exception being Jane where it was impacting her ability to get a new job.

  31. Aella*

    Aaand my manager just called to tell me that, though I’m signed up for Sunday, they’re taking me off the schedule due to equipment issues, because I signed up for an additional shift today. Which is half the length of the Sunday shift. But! She is delighted to inform me she can sign me up for an additional Friday shift next week!

    …I should have a cup of tea, then head to today’s shift, and make sure that my direct managers know, and also that it won’t affect my being paid for my training, because it does say in my contract that being paid for that is contingent on me carrying out my expected shift pattern.

    I am telling my headweasels that this is probably because of her exact motivations as laid out, and not because I offended her when I was asking her about a) when permanent jobs open up at the office and b) who I could put down as a reference when people asked me for my current job, even though I’d only been there a few days, emphasising it was just to check.

    1. ZSD*

      Wow. This is why people are fighting to pass fair scheduling legislation, which will include anti-retaliation protections.

      1. Aella*

        I am 99% certain this is not why.

        Also she has just emailed me to say that I’m definitely getting training pay, and receiving three hours pay as a gesture of goodwill, and now I am paranoid that she reads AAM!

        (I have had a lot of other stuff going on with uni and job search, and I suspect it is making me pessimistic and anxious about this job.)

      1. Aella*

        I then had a ‘bleargh’ shift which became much better fifteen minutes before it ended, and am now feeling slightly better.

        ‘Headweasels’ is such an evocative word. I am glad it’s spreading.

  32. Mimmy*

    I’d posted this late in the day last week, so it got buried – reposting a revised version.

    Although my Law & Policy class has been a hot mess pretty much all semester, it has re-invigorated a desire to build content knowledge on topics I’m deeply interested in. I’ve always wanted to be a “SME” in a couple of major topic areas – I think we had a thread on that some time ago? But…how does one translate extensive content knowledge into a career? For example, I’ve thought doing of some sort of freelance consulting on the ADA or disability awareness, but I don’t have any business skills, and I know becoming self-employed can be very difficult since it takes time to build a client base, especially for someone like me who does not have a lot of work experience.

    1. Nanc*

      If you’re going into business for yourself start by contacting your local Small Business Development Center. Go to sba [dot] gov and click the Local Assistance link. They’re a great resource for general information and the local office will be able to help you with the ins and outs of business licenses, etc. that are pertinent to your area.

    2. Rubyrose*

      It sounds like you need to get a job with an organization that deals with these major topic areas. This position could well be entry level and may not initially deal directly with your specific interests. But the goal is to get in the door, show you are valuable, and keep your eyes open for projects/positions that match your interests. Your business skills can be developed in this setting.

      A true SME is not created on education alone. It requires experience that can take several years (or more) of full time work. I don’t know your background, but building that experience by freelancing with only education may not give you the concentrated experience necessary to be a SME.

      You might also want to visit the earlier discussion started by Depressed Millennial, specifically the responses from teachers who are clear that they don’t appreciate educational advice from people without classroom experience. I think it shows the importance of having the “boots on the ground” experience.

      I had IT experience and then got a degree in Health Care Management. With those two but without experience combining the two I was not a healthcare IT SME. With 20 years experience working in a variety of healthcare IT settings (hospital, LTC, research, managed care claims, public health) I am now a healthcare IT SME. I would say I earned the SME title at about the 5 year mark.

      I really like that you are thinking about this and are asking the right questions to make yourself successful in the long run. Keep on with this process!!

      1. Mimmy*

        Just read through the whole thread – thank you for pointing me to it. I’m older than Depressed Millennial but the suggestions and perspectives were still very helpful.

  33. an1ymous*

    things have gone from more interesting to almost worse. interim manager is most definitely out for some duration of time. have been told things will be very rocky for awhile.

    i keep trying to push forward with projects and work and everything being up in the air but i’m not sure if i can deal with a rocky patch again. i feel stagnant in the water and am just trying to keep my head afloat, but at the same time i’m wondering if this is an opportunity to step up to the plate and manage projects on my own.

    any advice from people who had a manager leave, their interim manager go out and how you handled it would be much appreciated.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Are you able to be in regular contact with your boss’ boss?
      If yes, then I would go to big boss and explain, “I am working on A, B and C. However I see that no one is working on D and E because there is no immediate boss. Would you like me to pick up on D and E for the time being?”

    2. Rubyrose*

      Not So New Reader is correct about proactively making that next level boss proactively informed about what you are doing and offering to help in whatever manner you can. It shows initiative, which will be appreciated by upper management who may be overwhelmed by this situation. It can also give you the feeling of being in control and having movement, as opposed to being stagnant.

  34. MAB*

    My company is at a tipping point of succeeding or not. Which sucks because I do like it here and I do enjoy my job. The question is do I start really searching now, or wait until I am sure its a sinking ship?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Knowledge is power. Knowledge also gives us a broader perspective. It’s always good to get inputs from other people and it’s always good to be looking for new people to get inputs from.
          I vote for keeping an eye on the job openings that come up.

    2. orchidsandtea*

      Start searching and brushing up your resume and figuring out what skills you’ll need to improve based on what the job postings are listing. Then when it’s time to submit your applications, you’ve got the ducks lined up and can jump right in. Bonus, your brushed-up skills may be helpful in your current role, however long that lasts.

  35. Anon For This*

    I could really use some encouragement regarding a situation at work.

    Very long story extremely shortened… I have MCS. Last year I asked for (and got! ) an ADA-ish (state equivalent) accommodation which resulted in one of my co-workers being told to stop wearing perfume. Things were good for a while. But not so much lately. 1) She’s been wearing perfume more and more often lately, 2) Another co-worker’s perfume has been bothering me more and more, and 3) We’ve hired a few new people who bathe in it.

    I’m at the point where logically I know I have to go back to my boss and ask for my accommodation to be escalated to an office-wide perfume-free policy. But I just can’t get myself to do it. I know there will be at least pushback if not outright hostility/retaliation. I don’t want this to jeopardize my job, which I otherwise love, and am so relieved to have after several years of bad luck with layoffs. But I’m suffering every day and can’t take much more of it. I’m so full of despair about this because I just can’t see a winnable scenario.

    1. Confused Publisher*

      I realise we’ve all read multiple stories where asking for accommodations that people really needed had horrific consequences (think of the dog-friendly workplace from last year).

      But, decent workplaces do exist. I had to ask for something similar last year, and after some good-natured ribbing, my colleagues all acceded to my request. And it’s made such a difference to my workday.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      Your right to breathe and not actively suffer trumps their right to choose smell a certain way. Even typing that sounds ridiculous me! Be firm about it because you deserve clean, unscented air.

    3. Terra*

      Can you tell your manager you’re concerned about pushback? Can you ask if it’s possible for you to be moved to a different office/area or work from home instead of instituting a perfume free policy? Honestly, when it’s your health at risk I’d say putting up with it is not acceptable but there may be options you aren’t thinking of because you’re so caught up in the negative thinking death spiral that it’s easy to get caught in, especially when bad things have already happened to you. Try talking it over with your manager or a doctor and see if you have other options if you’re really concerned that a complete perfume ban is going to be a no go.

    4. Mimmy*

      These cases can be tricky. People certainly have the right to wear perfume, but I also think it’s generally rude to wear a lot of it for this very reason. Do you have a good relationship with any of the perfume wearers? If so, you could remind them that you are very sensitive to it and to ask that they refrain from wearing it.

      If that doesn’t help, I would definitely go back to your manager and discuss the issue. MCS or not, I think it’s inconsiderate of the new hires to come in “bathed” in the stuff.

    5. Shell*

      I understand your hesitation, but I still think it’s worth taking the risk. Working long-term in an environment that makes you suffer (your word) every day isn’t sustainable.

      I asked the new hire in front of me to hang his jacket elsewhere because I could smell it on him when he went out to smoke. I didn’t suffer, really, but I didn’t like the smell. He apologized profusely and did so, and checked in with me the week after to see if it helped (bonus: he quit smoking about a week after that. I wasn’t the reason, obviously–he’d been thinking about it for a long while). And not wearing perfume is a lot less difficult than not smoking!

      Give it a shot. You breathing is not negotiable.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Before you do anything else, I would try just going to the boss and saying, “The perfume is getting out of hand again. What can we do here?”

      It depends on your boss. I would have no issue telling people that NO cologne is part of the dress code. I would not even feel a need to explain that.

    7. The Anon OP*

      Thanks to everyone who already replied. But of course, in trying to summarize and not write a novel, I wound up leaving out relevant details
      * I work for a very small business, so rearranging where people are in the office won’t help. And due to the nature of my job, I can’t work from home.
      * Okay, I will admit I’m certainly not in the best headspace. But when I wrote that I know there will be pushback, that wasn’t negative thinking. I actually know there will be, because there was already when I originally had to deal with the situation last year. The employee in question (who at the time was the only one bothering me) got extremely hostile and told me “I have to wear perfume!”
      * Unfortunately talking with my doctor won’t do any good. While she knows of the existence of MCS and believes that I have it, she doesn’t really know anything about it. (Ironically, when I go to see her I wind up waiting on the patio outside her office, as her waiting area is toxic to me.) And until the AMA recognizes MCS as an actual condition, there’s very little I can do. (There are some doctors who are more knowledgeable, but I haven’t yet been able to find one near me. But even then, all the research I’ve done about what I can do about it basically boils down to “avoid exposure”.)
      * Part of the problem is that while my immediate boss appears to be sympathetic , if we were to try to implement an office-wide perfume-free policy it would have to be approved by the company owner. And okay, I don’t “know” this to be true. But based on everything I do know about him, I highly suspect he’s going to fall into the category of people who think that MCS is a mental illness and everyone who claims to have it is an attention-seeking whiner.

      But definitely, thanks to everyone for the encouragement. And even just being able to talk about it here helps.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        If it were me, I would still start with approaching my direct manager and mentioning that the perfume has become an issue again and see what she suggests. Since it sounds like your manager was sympathetic before, that might be all it takes.

        If you do end up having to approach the owner, could you frame the request more specifically as having a problem with perfume in particular causing some health issues for you, and talk about some of the symptoms you have (rather than talking about it as an accommodation for MCS)? Maybe framing it as causing a specific health issue would be more relatable for the owner?

      3. Sarah Nicole*

        Hi, The Anon OP. I work in healthcare (a chronic dialysis clinic) where it’s generally accepted that if we wear too much perfume, our patients can be affected by it. This is just the way it is, but I’m sure it took some time to get to the place it is now, and that probably included patients, visitors, and even employees speaking up about how much it bothers them. I’m not saying it will be easy, especially if you’re working with some unreasonable people. But if you enjoy the job and want to stay, I would push for the accommodation. You do have the right to work in an environment that doesn’t make you miserable. I also would like to know if this one lady is the only one that has complained about it? Sounds like maybe some of the other newer people may not know that it bothers you so much, and I’d bet that at least a few of them are likely to be very understanding of your situation.

        If I were you, here’s what I would do: I would continue searching for a doctor to at least consult with about this one issue and help you with some documentation. I would also go back to your boss and just say exactly what you did here, that Mean Lady has returned to her heavy perfume use, and that some new hires seem to wear a lot, but that you understand they may not know and could she please talk with them. Then, I would just ask if it’s something that can be an office-wide rule and let it go up to the owner. Hopefully it won’t end up being as bad as you think. And if it is, you can evaluate what to do at that point. But I don’t think your solution should be to just not push for what you need. You deserve a workplace that doesn’t adversely affect your health.

    8. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Many, many workplaces have scent-free policies. I wouldn’t sweat it – go ahead and ask for the accommodations. Your employers can certainly frame it as a workplace decision, rather than it being about your accommodations (while getting the same result). But really – they shouldn’t get to make you feel badly about that.

  36. Dom*

    I had a question about relocation assistance. My husband is interviewing for a position (Operations Manager salary range $55k-$70k) that is halfway across the country. He has had two phone interviews and has one more phone interview and face to face interview next week. When should we broach the subject of relocation assistance if at all? My husband doesn’t think we should ask because they have agreed to come up from the salary advertised on the job post to a figure that is closer to his current salary. But I think it would be ok to ask. The amount I was thinking would be $8k. This figure is about half of what it is going to cost us (we have to break our lease and move 2 cars and all our belongings). Thanks for reading any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Tsalmoth*

      At the offer/negotiating stage, and not before. Instead of a figure, maybe lead with, “can you tell me about the sort of relocation package you offer?”

    2. Not Karen*

      At the offer stage. I didn’t name a number; I just asked for relocation assistance if possible, and they came back with a number.

    3. Clever Name*

      I agree. Make it a part of salary negotiations. How big is the company? Larger companies will likely have more resources for this type of assistance. When my husband transferred to another location across the country, his relocation package was valued (albeit by rumor, but I think the number is pretty accurate) at around $60k. In contrast, my small company doesn’t offer any kind of relocation assistance. So it’s all over the place.

      I also wouldn’t lead with a figure, especially one that is half of your actual expenses. I know you don’t want to seem greedy, but you may be surprised. $8k may be nothing to the company and would gladly pay $16k to help the right candidate. You never know. Don’t sell yourself short.

    4. Emmie*

      There may be some tax benefits to paying relocation costs yourself. I’d figure out if it was a better personal decision to negotiate other things like salary, PTO, some remote, etc… -But, you’d negotiate it at the offer stage.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        If the company pays the movers, it won’t be taxable to you, so it’s a wash if they pay, or if you pay and are given money by your new employer. In my experience the important question about taxes kick in when the company pays the real estate fees for selling your house. In one move I had, I actually sold our house to my new employer (with no RE fees), and then the employer sold it to the buyer (which did include the RE fees). That way I didn’t have to pay the RE fees, and the company included them as a business expense. In another move, I had a multi-family house, and the rules said that the new employer couldn’t buy and sell a multi. Instead, I paid the RE fees myself, and my employer reimbursed those fees, including grossing up the amount so that it was tax neutral for me. In the end, your goal should be to come as close to break even (after taxes) as possible.

    5. Dom*

      Ok, so it is ok to ask for assistance. I will definitely make these suggestions to my husband. Thanks, I really appreciate this advice.

    6. Jessica*

      My husband just got $7k for a relocation from NY to Chicago for a job with a $75k salary, so $8k is within the realm of possibilities but might be on the high side. They also recommended two different moving companies — they had long-term agreements in place with both companies to give discounts to this company’s employees. All of this was discussed at the offer stage.

    7. HR Pro*

      I worked for a financially comfortable nonprofit and their max relocation assistance was $5k. (Yes, it was a nonprofit but they were not cash-strapped at all.) They followed the IRS rules for non-taxable moving benefits, and I don’t think that the cost to break a lease would have been included.

      My current company (another nonprofit, with perhaps a little tighter budget) rarely gives relocation assistance.

      Obviously many companies do give generous relocation assistance. Just wanted to give you some other perspectives.

  37. Impatient LW*

    I submitted a question to Alison a few weeks back, and it hasn’t run. At what point is it safe to assume it won’t get answered and I can post here? I know she gets so many, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it won’t run, but I don’t want to mess up her queue by accident…

    1. neverjaunty*

      Maybe just email Alison and let her know you’re posting in the open thread so no need to answer?

  38. Need cheering up*

    This week my boss asked several staff members, including me, to prepare for a meeting. I prepared 3 power point slides and sent him them the day before the meeting. He specifically asked for an update on sales numbers and a plan on how I intend to meet this year’s target. This meeting was with local staff in the office as well as over a conference call with staff in other regions.

    As it was my turn I went through them. Half way through he interrupted me and said ‘If everyone talks as much we’ll run out of time.. and things like what you have is not a real plan. I asked what a real plan would be and whether he can give an example and he just said ‘that should come from you’. I got quite agitated and just continued going through the slides. I felt undermined in front of the whole group, which upset me most. I feel his comments were totally inappropriate or am I overreacting?

    1. Sadsack*

      Was your presentation different from the others? If so, in what way(s)? I think considering that may be a place to start.

      1. Need cheering up*

        Five people were asked to prepare and I was second. The first one did not have slides but was reading from notes. Another colleague after me also had 3-4 slides, some had none and were just talking. Sure I could have moved on quicker, but something like ‘Jane, make sure you focus on the main points as we are pushed on time’ would have been sufficient instead of questioning whether or not I have understood the assignment. I did not think I was taking more time than others.

        Prior to the meeting the task simply was to give an overview on the current numbers and a plan to meet the 2016 target, such as key campaigns. Plus I had sent the slides the day before. If they really were not fit for purpose my boss could have told me before or after.

        I think he was just in a bad mood and gets pressure from his boss. However, I did not appreciate the way I as spoken to nor did I appreciate my reaction. I became defensive and stood up for my plan.

    2. Sadsack*

      Sorry, I totally left out the other part – no, I don’t think you are overreacting. I would also feel put off by having those comments made in front of the group. However, you can’t really do anything about that so it is best to try to figure out what he wanted.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      The rest of the group was wondering if he would treat them in a similar manner.

      Okay helpful message very poorly delivered. Shortening your time is something you can work on and figure something out. The slides though that is a different story, he should have told you the day before. I guess the next time I submitted slides I would make sure he gave me feedback before the meeting.

      I don’t know what your boss is like. I might consider going to him even now and telling him that I want to write a good plan, but I am not sure what he is using as criteria to decide when a plan is a good one. What is his criteria?

      Sometimes people get brash in front of others, but when you go back in on a conversation privately, they change their tone and give you real answers.

  39. Lillian McGee*

    How does your employer handle 401(k) contributions?

    We are switching from a 403(b) to 401(k) and we can’t use the method we’ve been using (a “stipend” where a set amount per employee is applied to health insurance if elected and then any remainder goes into 403(b) as an employer contribution). We are starting fresh with new hires, but we’re having a hard time figuring out how to grandfather in existing employees who are all getting different amounts contributed.

    1. Is it spring yet?*

      I don’t think you really can accommodate all current employees at their same levels. Although one possibility would be a base amount (Y% or X% match) with an increase for longevity or maybe a “bonus” deposited quarterly or annually. But first you have to see what the regs for 401(k)s say. This could limit what you do.

    2. Jadelyn*

      My employer does a dollar-for-dollar 6% match to either a regular or Roth 401k, plus an additional contribution of 3% of the employee’s base pay after they’ve been with the organization for 1 year. So if you max your contribution, your 401k gets an amount equal to 15% of your base salary.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I’m not sure if I’m reading this correctly, but I would move to a “match” system instead of giving them a percentage of their salary. I have two separate retirement accounts here – one is a 403B to which I cannot contribute, but my company puts 15% of my salary into it each year. The other one is more like a 401K where we contribute a percentage of our own salary into it.

  40. Ivy*

    Long-time commenter, using a throwaway name…

    My grandboss seems irritated with me. I have been here for a month and replaced someone who retired after 20 years.

    My actual boss is friendly, encouraging, and has only had positive things to say. She isn’t holding back any issues; she raises them in a constructive, actionable way.

    What do I do? I don’t want to make it worse, and he might just be missing my predecessor (and 20 years of experience).

    1. NoProfitNoProblems*

      Don’t worry about it. If it continues for a while and actively starts to interfere with your work and advancement prospects, you can ask your actual boss for advice/ask her to advocate for you. Hopefully your good work will just make its way up the chain!

    2. LanLinesareLosers*

      I had a similar problem. My boss loved me, his boss not so much. It turns out his boss was just unhappy and everything I perceived to be about me was not at all about me. When his boss left for another org she turned around and offered me a job there.

    3. Rin*

      Just keep working and learning. He’ll either come around or always compare you with the person you replaced; sometimes you can’t change people in that way. If he outwardly picks on you, then maybe you can ask your boss for advice. BTW I love the term Grandboss

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I would not lose a lot of energy on it either. Pretend to be oblivious to the grand boss’ irritation. Be pleasant, helpful and open.

      In a couple of jobs I have asked my immediate boss, if I needed to be aware of anything with the big boss. I have said things like, “I don’t want to tick the guy off and I want you to be in good standing and not have issues because of me.” Your boss may give you a few pointers OR your boss may just say, “oh he’s always like that with new hires, ignore it.” Trust your boss to tell you how to handle things.

  41. Crystal has a question*

    This week I started my new job. On my second day my manager said he couldn’t believe that someone with my background was able to get such a good job and that he never expected me to be anything more than a receptionist and frankly even that was pushing it for someone who came from where I did. He went on about how shocked he was for almost 10 minutes and said he couldn’t believe that I got hired for this job. His boss echoed this sentiment as well.

    My background = growing up in the poorest place in the country, in a family where every single person was on welfare, no one ever had a legal job, no one had more than a grade 10 education and every person had a criminal record and at least one child by the time they turned 17. No exceptions. I left home when I turned 18, hitchhiked to the nearest bus station (yes seriously) and bought a ticket  for as far away as I could afford. I didn’t even know where I would end up and I didn’t have any family or friends in the area. I spent 10 years earning my GED and then my degree by taking night classes and working as a receptionist during the day. I still work at the same company, but I got a different job there after I earned my degree. Between this and the fact that I am much older than most graduates seeking their first job (I’m 28) people here know my story.

    Am I right to be offended by their comments or am I being too sensitive? I don’t have any reference points to compare this to because I didn’t know anyone who worked in a legal, legitimate job until I started working here. No one else was there when they made their comments. Until now my colleagues have always been really supportive and helpful. This is the first time I’ve comments like this made to me and I’m not sure if I’m right to feel offended.

    1. ZSD*

      Your manager is a dick. Yes, you’re right to be offended. Even if he is surprised by your success, he should keep that to himself.
      How could your manager think this wouldn’t demoralize their new employee?
      HOWEVER, I don’t think you should let this set the tone for your new job. You’ve done amazing things so far, so now the thing to do is be a rockstar in your new position. Eventually, they’ll see how wrong they were about you. Good luck!
      (And seriously, congratulations on all you’ve achieved. You’re an inspiration.)

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        What they said! It took an amazing amount of courage and determination to do what you’ve done. Don’t let one turbo douche get you down.

      2. The Butcher of Luverne*

        Your manager is actually the biggest dick in the room wherever he goes.

        Good on you for your accomplishments. No one can take those away from you.

    2. Mando Diao*

      It’s annoying and offensive, but I think it’s possible that they had positive intentions and were impressed that you’ve made it so far. Next time say, “I agree, I’m very happy to have beat the odds.”

      1. Crystal has a question*

        I don’t think he was impressed. He was going on about how the only “people like me” he has ever known are hotel maids and janitors because most of us are in jail and it was surprise that I was able to act smart enough to get such a good job (I don’t think there is anything wrong with being a hotel maid or a janitor or having any other job that is legal). He also commented about how it must be hard for me being around people who are above my station so much and he hopes I fit in and don’t show my poor background around people so I don’t embarrass myself.

        1. Ad Astra*

          Um, upon reading this elaboration, I’m having a hard time assuming the best of this guy. Is this your direct manager? That you have to deal with on a daily basis? If so, that’s a bad sign. The best you can do is say something like “Yep, I’m really proud of what I’ve achieved” and change the subject. But this is offensive and gross and you shouldn’t have to deal with it.

        2. KR*

          If the people from where you grew up are predominately a certain race, I would definitely point it out that this type of talk is discriminatory. Please know that he is a jerk and I’m sorry that you have to deal with that at work.

          1. Crystal has a question*

            I’m white (and he is white also but is married to a woman who is not, although she comes from money like he does) so it’s an issue with classism and not racism in this case. I do get where you are coming from though :)

            1. Observer*

              Did he at least have the sense to avoid the terms “trailer trash” and “white trash”?

              Start looking for something else – either in your company or elsewhere. Your boss has made it clear that he’s never going to see as a full equal and you’ll have to work twice as hard to get half as far – IF you are lucky!

              You’ve done something very difficult, and you deserve to be in a job where your abilities and character would be rewarded.

              1. Observer*

                I put in “rolling eyes” after my first line, but in angle brackets. The system swallowed it.

        3. Lillian McGee*

          Never mind what life would be like WITHOUT hotel maids and janitors! It’s simply infuriating that some of the most important jobs in our society are treated with such scorn and derision. Not to mention wildly inadequate pay and appreciation.

            1. AnonAnalyst*

              Seriously. That is HARD work. I don’t think I’d make it through a full day in either of those jobs.

        5. Mockingjay*

          I am so sorry that you are dealing with this. Suggested response:

          “Yes.” [Noncommittal, doesn’t mean anything.] “Now, about the teapot report…”

          If he brings it up again: “Yes. Now, about the handle inspection report…”

          Repeat each time. The goal is not to engage him on this; he’s looking for affirmation of his superiority. [Clearly, he has none.]

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            And if failing to turn the conversation back around doesn’t work… “I’m sorry but what do you mean by that?” or “I don’t understand that reference, could you please explain?” Yes, he’s a snob but once he has to explain his snobbery, he should hopefully be somewhat ashamed of what he’s said. Perhaps.

            I would also suggest that you keep an ear to the ground for other jobs/department transfers. And maybe make a small secret diary of the kinds of comments he drops. Just in case. Because I have a feeling that you might outclass him in more ways than one and that would be threatening to him.

        6. mander*

          He is a grade A++ asshole. Who says demeaning stuff like that to their staff? I’m livid on your behalf!

      2. neverjaunty*

        No, I really don’t think it’s possible that somebody who goes on and on for ten minutes about how they can’t believe someone of the OP’s background works for them has positive intentions.

        OP, you have every right to be offended and their behavior is way, WAY outside the norm.

    4. KR*

      I think you have a right to feel offended. Coming from a place of privilege, I probably don’t have the best script to deflect this sort of thing – but I do think that there’s an power dynamic at play because they’re your bosses and that really prevents you from sticking up for yourself properly. If he brings it up again, would it be out of line to say something like, “I’ve worked very hard to get where I am today, and I would appreciate it if we did not discuss my background like this” or “Coming from [area] I would really appreciate it if we could cut down on the assumptions about people who come from [area], since I’ve worked very hard to get where I am today.”

    5. Carrie in Scotland*

      You’re inspirational (which is what your boss should’ve said!) and you’re right to feel offended by his comments.

    6. anon for this*

      You’re definitely right to be offended. I grew up in a very poor area of Boston with a very thick Boston accent – you know, the type people love to make fun of and the type that is very obviously a blue collar lower income accent. I had a better situation than yours since most people had legal jobs, but they were all construction or truck drivers or other lower level jobs people don’t generally aspire to.

      Unfortunately in Boston, there are “middle class” and “upper class” Boston accents which aren’t that thick and just sound like normal Northeast or East Coast accents and “poor accents” (again, the type everyone likes to imitate and stereotype) and you don’t get far with a poor accent in this city. I worked really, really hard to get scholarships to a good school and to hide my accent because even in Boston, most middle class schools and most white collar companies don’t have people with “poor” Boston accents. I once was stressed and slipped at work and had a few coworkers say they couldn’t believe someone who grew up where I did and went to the K-12 schools I did and sounded like I did got a job in a well-known corporate company as something more than an admin or assistant. And once they knew I had to suffer a loooooot of people making exaggerated comments about my accent or stereotypes about my background and general disbelief that I made it so far.

      So, long story short, yes, you have every right to be offended because it’s classism. I’ve learned the hard way that middle class people who love to talk about how liberal and accepting they are can be very, very classist – sometimes without realizing it. If they keep on like this, bring it up and tell them that it’s not okay. Because acting amazed that someone from a lower class background actually moved up in the world is really, really gross.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Because acting amazed that someone from a lower class background actually moved up in the world is really, really gross.

        Agreed. People say we don’t have class issues in the US, but that is so not true. I have a relative who, when she was establishing herself in her career, would not tell anyone we grew up in a small town. Plus, isn’t this SUPPOSED to be the American Dream!?

        2. anon for this*

          Yeah. The US has a huge class issue, especially how the middle class regards the lower class. (Obviously how the upper class regards the middle class is an issue as well, but that’s addressed way more than the lower class/middle class divide imo)

          I don’t think a lot of middle class people realize that when you hear comments like this all the time, they come off as backhanded compliments. Someone being impressed that you made it out of a lower income lifestyle can be very condescending.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I have heard rich people say things that would absolutely curl your hair. The ignorance is profound.

      2. neverjaunty*

        Middle-class people who love to talk about how liberal they are, are often the most classist, tbh.

        I mean, the OP’s boss wasn’t even saying something well-meaning but clueless like “wow, it’s so inspirational that you were able to overcome all of that and work here!” Ten. Groudon. Minutes. And then HIS boss jumping in.

        1. anon for this*

          Definitely. It bothers me how many middle class people love to express their support for race, gender, sexual, religious equality, but then turn around and make horribly classist comments. It’s way more common than people realize, I think.

          It kind of makes me wonder how many people make those “in spite of your background” comments without realizing it’s an insult.

          1. Crystal has a question*

            +1

            I don’t mind at all when people I know well, or the people I mentor at the community center (where I got my start) say things like “It’s really cool how you have been able to rise above so much”. But the whole “in spite of your background” and other comments really rub me the wrong way.

            1. anon for this*

              Yes, exactly. It’s completely different if someone who comes from the same experience or background says something like that, but someone else saying it, especially someone from a higher social class is really not okay.

          2. Turtle Candle*

            Yeah. I’ve had that conversation many times with middle-class liberals (and I count myself as a liberal, but it’s a VERY common blind spot). “Oh, I just don’t understand how people can feed their children Kraft Mac n Cheese and canned tomato soup when it’s just as easy to make noodles with parmesan and real tomato soup!” Well, it’s not just as easy, but even more so–“Uh, because it costs about a third as much?” Fluster, fluster, oh I just think ~your family’s health~ isn’t somewhere you should compromise.

            How very nice for you!

            I remember my mother, who grew up genuinely farm-laborer poor, being incandescent with rage back in the 90s when Alice Waters said that everyone could afford organic food if they’d just stop buying Nikes.

            1. anon for this*

              I get annoyed when people talk about how “poor” people choose to eat unhealthy food when eating healthy is cheap, but $5 can buy 5 $1 burgers at a fast food restaurant or 5 boxes of mac and cheese, whereas $5 might buy you a bag of apples or potatoes at a grocery store. Fresh produce is expensive.

              It’s that sort of privilege that doesn’t acknowledge that raising subway fairs to $3 is a big deal for some people because some people rely on every dollar they get and it’s not just “the cost of a coffee”.

              1. AnonAnalyst*

                Not to mention the fact that in some really low income areas, there aren’t any stores that sell fresh produce, or sometimes even many healthy food options. But if you’re living there without affordable transportation to go outside of your neighborhood to a proper grocery store, you’re stuck making the best of what the corner convenience store or the fast food restaurant down the street offers.

                When you can’t even get to a store that sells those things, it’s sort of meaningless for someone else to point out how many apples or potatoes you could buy with the same $5 you spent on 5 burgers.

                1. anon for this*

                  Yeah, tell me about it. I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to a local college and I gorged myself on fresh produce in the cafeterias because it was such a rarity growing up.

            2. all aboard the anon train*

              I generally find a lot of middle class liberals are only liberal in the mainstream sense. So, for instance, when it comes to gay rights a lot of them think the LGBTQA+ community is mostly gay men and lesbians and that gay marriage is the only big issue when it’s really a small issue in the larger scheme of things. The mainstream queer movement is mostly focused on white cisgender gay men, just the same way that mainstream feminism still primarily caters to white middle class heterosexual cisgender women.

              So a lot of people end up championing equal pay for women in white collar jobs and better healthcare for women who already have access to healthcare through their partners or jobs. Most of the conversation isn’t about equal pay for women in blue collar work or healthcare issues for lower class, queer, or minority women. Or how abortion may be accepted as the women’s choice in a lot of white middle class circles, but it’s still stigmatized in a lot of other circles.

              1. Doriana Gray*

                + 1,000 to this whole comment. It’s very, very true. A lot of middle class liberals really aren’t that different from their conservative counterparts, though they like to think they are.

            3. neverjaunty*

              “Exactly. You don’t understand, you stupid, overprivileged sack of giraffe droppings.”

              I guess that’s a good place to try out that five-minute rule, huh.

    7. Ad Astra*

      You’re right to be offended, but I don’t think you should say anything about this comment. He might have even meant it as a compliment — which doesn’t make it an OK thing to say, but I think intent is important.

      If he makes a similar comment in the future, you might try responding with something like “Oh? What makes you say that?” Sometimes explaining their thought process helps people realize they’re being crappy.

    8. Sheepla*

      Just my opinion, not a very sensitive thing for them to say so I understand your tendency towards feeling offended, but it sounds like these comments were meant to be complimentary. Like “wow, look at what you’ve achieved in spite of your background.”

      1. Crystal has a question*

        I didn’t feel like he was trying to complement me because he talked about me working around people who are “above my station” and said he hopes my poor background doesn’t lead to embarrassment. He said if he was me he would lie about where he came from because he would be ashamed and he mentioned it was shocking that I was able to act smart enough to get this job. That is just some of what he said over those 10 minutes. I realize people can sound awkward when giving complements but I didn’t feel complimented at all by his comments.

        2. Muriel Heslop*

          Crystal, you are amazing and obviously talented and capable. Kudos to you! Your manager sounds like a small person. I am embarrassed for him, and would also like to punch him in the nose.

          I am sorry you are dealing with this, because he is being rude, mean, and inappropriate. He has told you much more about himself than he could tell anyone about you. I don’t know the circumstances of your employment, but I would say something to him privately about his insulting behavior. And say something in the moment if it happens again. “Yes, Jerk Manager, you have made yourself clear on the topic” or something like that.

          And as they say, “Living well is the best revenge.” Rock this job!

            1. Dynamic Beige*

              You should seriously consider doing something with your life story. I mean, there are probably young people back where you come from who would benefit to see a story like yours so that they know that they can get out, too, if that’s a choice they want to make for themselves. Sometimes, we need someone to show us the way or that there is an alternative.

          2. neverjaunty*

            “He has told you much more about himself than he could tell anyone about you.” – SO much this.

        3. another IT manager*

          “Act smart?” WTF.

          If you got a job that requires brains and kept it, you have brains. QED. You also have a jerk for a boss, and for that you have my sympathy.

        5. Anon Moose*

          WTF. Write everything down- exactly what you heard and who was there. I would not be at all surprised if these jerks continued to bring it up. Being poor may not be a protected class as such but I think it would definitely creating a hostile work environment if it continues and HR should know about it and any future comments that make you feel unwelcome. Wow. That is so out of line.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Just to be clear, hostile work environment has to be based on a projected characteristic like sex, religion, or race, so it’s unlikely to apply here. But the boss is a huge ass.

      2. all aboard the anon train*

        It’s a backhanded compliment. It’s pointing out an “otherness” about someone and commenting on it. The comment would be just as insulting if it was about race, gender, or sexuality.

      3. Anona myous*

        Congratulating someone on their achievements is fine. When you add things like “in spite of your background” it is classist and insulting, even if you mean well.

    9. Lillian McGee*

      It sounds like you’ve worked very hard for everything you’ve accomplished and to hear shit like that is not only offensive, it’s extremely ignorant on their part. I have no advice on how to deal with such things but I join you in your outrage.

      I hope it doesn’t remain a problem and I wish you much continued success.

    10. LanLinesareLosers*

      Is there a reason your background is even coming up this much?

      I say this as the only person in my family to graduate from high school, let alone attend college and earn a Fulbright. Both my parents are felons. Everyone in my family is a drug addict and/or alcoholic. It’s not stuff I talk about at work. All people see when they talk to me is a bright, accomplished young lady. I don’t bring up my background because its not something I feel I should be judged on. Positively or not. When the questions around family come up I politely deflect.

      I am not saying that people should not handle this information better, but I am saying that by airing this information at work you will experience jerks like your boss trying to “compliment” you by making gross, broad stroke assumptions about what “people-like-you” are like. Regardless of your race or ethnicity you will experience this coming from a poor background.

      1. Crystal has a question*

        Other than in passing in my job as a receptionist I had never spoken to my manager before.

        As I said the reason everyone knows about my background is because I have worked here for 10 years, many people knew I was attending night school and that I wasn’t from this state. Plus I am 28 and much older than most people who are applying for jobs right after they graduate. I don’t air my background but it has come up in regular conversation in the 10 years I have worked here. Me having a GED and attending night school was also discussed in my interview.

    11. Evie*

      Is he a different race than you are (you don’t have to answer)? People like you has a very racial undertone. I would watch for other signs of discrimination and keep some notes. This isn’t you being sensitive and I’m sorry this is happening.

      1. Crystal has a question*

        I don’t mind answering :). Both he and I are white. To me it’s a class issue and not a race issue because I am white and he is married to a woman who is a different race. I get where you are coming from though. In my case he’s not being a jerk based on my race, but my class.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Are you from very different regions? I’ve occasionally had to point out to people in one part of the country that people from another part are not necessarily “less” than them. But a well-off New Yorker, for example, really can think there’s some sort of real difference in intelligence, ability, and even value between him and a poor person from Kentucky.

          As someone who hasn’t had this struggle but has heard about a similar one from older family members, I have to say I admire you. Leaving the familiar (even if it’s awful) to strike out on your own takes a lot of bravery and character.

          1. Crystal has a question*

            Yes there is a regional difference. I’m originally from Kentucky and I live in California now. The area I come from has many well known stereotypes (Hicks and hill people from the Appalachians, etc).

            Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate them.

            1. Charlotte Collins*

              One of my beloved uncles was from Kentucky. I’d say if his abilities were good enough for NORAD, they should be good enough for anyone. (He never lost his accent, and I loved it – but I have older relatives from north of the Ohio River, so there’s a connection there, too.)

              Besides, Abraham Lincoln was a poor kid from Kentucky, and look what he did!

            2. TL -*

              Oh yeah. There’s definitely a people like you that means “you hicks/rednecks/ignorant racist republicans in the south.”

            3. Nerdling*

              As a fellow Kentuckian, I feel you. Good for you on kicking ass and taking names! And I have words I won’t use about your jackanape boss.

            4. Nerdling*

              Support from a fellow Kentuckian right here. You are awesome and he’s an ass. Neither of those things is likely to change, so I think you by far got the better deal.

      2. anon for this*

        “People like you” is also used in classist remarks regardless of race. Classism is still discrimination.

        2. Evie*

          Yes it is but if I was wondering if it was possibly race based and should could be protected in that way which is why I suggested notes.

    12. Temperance*

      Nope, you’re right to be offended. I’m an attorney and I grew up in a trailer. Most of my family is lower-class and also lives in trailers outside of Scranton, PA. I’m an attorney. I’m the first person on my dad’s side of the family to obtain a 4-year degree, and first on my mother’s to obtain an advanced degree. I have one cousin who has an MSN.

      I don’t share my background at work, ever. My first name is a pretty obvious class marker (it’s something like Brandi, but not Brandi), but otherwise, I fit in fairly well, dress appropriately, etc. It’s still hard to dodge questions about my family.

      1. Crystal has a question*

        I grew up in a trailer too. My first name is a pretty obvious class marker as well, especially when it’s paired with my middle name (Crystal). It’s nice to know I’m not the only one. Thank you for responding.

        1. Navy Vet*

          I made this mistake at last job. I was really open about my past. Not because I wanted people to feel bad for me or treat me differently. Because I am proud of where I’ve gotten in life and what I overcame. It would be just a matter of fact statement here or there that was in line with whatever lunch discussion was going on.

          Once someone asked me how I came up with my ideas for cooking (I’m pretty creative in the kitchen) And I told that person that it was a skill I learned growing up poor. When all you have in the cabinet is ramen noodles, garlic powder, pretzels and if you were lucky Velveeta, you make it work.
          But stories like that colored my coworkers view of me. I thought it was funny. (Still do) Along with lots of my other childhood exploits.

          And holler to Scranton! I lived in Greensburg as a small child!

      2. Jules the First*

        Out loud: “I’ve worked hard to rise above my background; I wish everyone could do the same…”
        In my head: “Including you, you entitled little shit…”

    13. animaniactoo*

      fwiw, I read the stuff above, and I would directly answer his comments when they come up again.

      “Actually, I’m not ashamed of where I’ve come from at all. Many people in that area try really hard to make a better life for themselves and are shut down through lack of opportunities in the area. I’m happy that I’ve been able to succeed in finding a better situation for myself.”

      “I’m not sure what you mean by “above my station”. Is there a need for something other than the professionalism that I have always shown while working here?”

    14. Jacket*

      Document it. Classism, regionalism, paternalism, whatever, this dude is wanging his privilege around like a wet monkey and it’s inappropriate (and abusive–to you and the monkey). As others have said, you’re amazing, keep your chin up and just be as good at what you do as possible. Stick it out as long as you must and work towards a job with a company that doesn’t hire douchefaces like these. But yeah, keep a little diary, save any emails, etc. Just in case.

      As someone who grew with college educated parents, one from an upper middle-class family and the other who had clawed her way out of rural poverty, I can attest to the deep-seated classism in this country (USA) on a very personal level. It’s insidious. My mum fought to make sure I got the best possible education and so I went to private schools my entire life (on hard-earned scholarships). At one particularly low moment when I was about 16 I made a snide remark to my mum about people who went to a particular state college were dumb and then remembered that was the school she went to. It was really an eye-opening moment for me about how far I had bought into the “Ivy-League-or-Bust” mentality of my New England prep school. What had just come out of my mouth? Did I really think that? Ugh! Thank goodness I had that slap in the face when I did. Woke me right up. All of us are more complex and curious and worthwhile than our circumstances.

      Your boss deserves a good whack in the face with a herring. You know they say being kind to your enemies is like putting a hot coal on their head…

    15. NacSacJack*

      Hang on a minute. I’m not so quick to jump on the “Offended” bandwagon here. Do they know your background? Did you tell them how every member of your family was jailed and a parent before 17? Reading your story, I got the impression, that included you. Have you been running yourself down in front of them? I think they are very impressed with you, given their knowledge of your background and are giving you kudos trying to build up your self-esteem. Two items – First, my dad was in the employment service all his life and I have cousins on his side of the family who have a similar background. Know what it took us (his kids) to get through college even with the support of our parents who knew the importance of education, I am still impressed by my cousins who did get their college degrees and have had careers other than minimal wage jobs. That’s tough to do. Second, I’ve met two people in my life whom I’ve been impressed with and have asked/hinted/curious friendly discussed their family background. They grew up very poor, had no money, have gone on to get college degrees, made their way into positions of authority and excude this sense of self-confidence/self-esteem that typically we expect from people of good background. They figured it out. They figured out how to walk the walk and talk the talk when their background did not. I still cant figure it out. It is not easy to make the American Dream happen. If it concerns you, ask them. I’m curious to see if you respond and tell us whether they knew your background or not.

      1. Crystal has a question*

        Yes they know my background. For the record I am not a parent and I have never been to jail. They know I have no record based on questions on my job applications with them (have you ever been arrested, have you ever thought been convicted of an offense for which a pardon has not been granted). Other than in passing when I was a receptionist I had never spoken with either of them before. I never run myself down, but even if I did they have never had a conversation with me so they would not know that.

      2. Anona myous*

        The OP stated right in her original post that they know about her background.

        Also as per her other comments, telling her that the only other “people like her” are either maids or janitors are in jail, saying she is working with people “above her station” and will be an embarrassment, telling her that if he was her he would lie about his background because it is so shameful and saying it was shocking she was able to “act smart” enough to get such a good job is not someone showing how impressed they are with her. It’s the total opposite.

    16. Undine*

      Who hired you for this job? Presumably there is someone in the company who thinks you can handle this and is on your side, yes? Can you go talk to them informally, as a mentor, and ask them what you should do? I realize that runs the risk of getting back to your boss, but I’m hoping there’s someone there who is impressed by your work ethic and tenacity and realizes how much you bring to work, who would be willing to help you think through how you are going to handle this.

      My concern is that you need/want to be evaluated on your performance, not your accent and if this guy can’t get past it, then you will have a real problem on your hands. You have a lot to be proud of, and I’m sure there are people where you work who are really impressed with you. There’s no doubt you earned your new spot.

      This might be one for the Carolyn Hax response: “Wow.”

    17. Not So NewReader*

      OP, you have the right to feel offended when ever you feel offended. No one can take our feelings away from us. It’s what we do with our feelings that matters the most.

      I hope at some point you can turn this whole conversation on its head. Your boss lacks the ability to work with a diversity of people. (I’m not always great at it BUT I am willing to learn more. Your boss does not seem willing to learn more.)
      Successful people come from all kinds of backgrounds* and he does not seem to understand this basic concept. There are lists on the internet of people who came up out of poverty and/or extremely abusive environments and went on to having amazing careers. Please give him one of these lists.
      You can also point out that there are extremely well off people who went on to living life on the street or in a shack because they blew through everything they had. The stories go both ways. Class level does not insure success. I can’t tell you the number of ivy league grads I know who have done NOTHING with their lives.

      *Stories: My friend had an uncle who married into his family. This uncle was orphaned very young. He started working in X arena as a teen. He worked his way up. He became a multi-millionaire who rubbed elbows with some of the richest people in the world.

      Conversely, a friend of mine handled the books for a fairly wealthy family. The parents were okay, the kids… they had problems. My friend got tired of writing out checks to the adult children when she KNEW for a fact the kids were just going to it snort up their noses.

      FWIW, your story is inspirational to me. I had a tear or two come up as I read along. I will use your story to give myself a kick in the butt on days when I am slacking.
      Rock on, OP. There’s assholes everywhere, don’t let them get in your way or even slow you down. Keep setting your goals and going after those goals, this guy is a temporary hurdle in your day/week. Step over him, step around him, whatever and keep rockin’.

    18. Doriana Gray*

      You were not wrong to be offended, your boss and grandboss were wrong for voicing their ignorant opinions to you in the workplace. It just goes to show that money doesn’t buy class (or apparently manners).

  42. Callie*

    About a month ago, I wrote in an open thread asking for advice on what to wear to an academic interview. WELL, I GOT THE JOB!!!!! A full time, tenure track job with the option of summer teaching. I’m so excited! I’m still waiting on the final formal offer letter from the provost, but I spoke to the dean a few days ago. I haven’t told anyone at my current job yet, because I’m waiting for that formal offer letter. BUT I GOT A JOB!!

    now to plan another cross country move…

    12. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

      YAY! What did you end up wearing? :) Welcome to the tenure track!

  43. El Rugg*

    What is the etiquette for emailing a coworker who is on vacation? I definitely think calling someone who is on vacation should only occur if there is a true emergency, but what about email? If something comes up and there’s a quick question, is it better to email them knowing they won’t see it until they get back? Or hold off until they do return?

    1. all aboard the anon train*

      Do you mean emailing their work email address? I’ll do that and write something like, “Hi X, I know you’re on vacation, so when you get back and have a moment to answer this, could you let me know Z?”

      I would never email their personal email address while they were on vacation, though.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      Is there anyone else you can ask? Like…their boss or coworker?

      If not, I’d email there work address and ask them to get back to you when they come back.

    4. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I would say just send it. I know I’ll come back to a lot of emails, but I would rather have them in my inbox than a deluge on Monday (I usually will spend time sorting through my inbox the night before I head into the office_.

      If you want you could put something in the subject line like “[Can be handled after 4/25] Quarterly Teapot Earnings Question”

    5. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I usually write the email but then save it in my drafts folder until the day they get back. That way I won’t forget about the message/question, but I don’t worry about the recipient feeling pressured to respond during vacation.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      I would put “not urgent – wait until you are back to read” or something similar in the subject line…

      1. Kyprea*

        This is what I do. I’ll put a subject like “Non-urgent: Contracts need your signature” or “For after your vacation: Where is the office waffle maker?”

    7. Beezus*

      I send the email when I think of it. If I know they are reading email and what I’m asking for is time consuming, I am careful to clarify that the request is for when they return, and spell out a need-by date.

  44. AnonForThis*

    So I read that article about sick systems. It could be based exactly on my work. It’s given me the kick I need to start looking elsewhere, especially because it explained some of the disordered thinking that’s convinced me to stay before.

    To complicate matters, I’m friends with my boss outside of work and his non-work persona is every bit as bad. I’m terrified of going non contact, even though I know I need to.

    Any tips or anything from people who have escaped themselves?

  45. NGL*

    Wondering about etiquette on asking a former coworker for a professional contact…

    I worked with a contact (dedicated to my industry) for a social media network at Old Job, and have lost her contact info in the transition to New Job. I assumed that someone here would have the contact’s info, but apparently New Job has never dealt with this network on a corporate level before (I’m shocked!). So I’m thinking about asking a co-worker I’m friendly with from Old Job if she can send me the contact’s e-mail address (I’ve googled extensively and I can’t find any contact info online).

    But I want to be sure that this would be an okay exchange of info and wouldn’t seem weird! Any advice?

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      I think that if you had her contact information before (I’m assuming she gave it to you willingly), then it should be fine to ask for it from someone you know has it. It’s not like you’re asking for a stranger’s contact info to randomly contact her when she doesn’t already know who you are. :)

  46. ELW*

    Any advice for how to list on my resume – especially a federal resume – multiple positions at the same organization? The positions were very similar but with increasing responsibility (say, Teapot Policy Assistant, Associate, and Analyst) over nearly 5 years total. My job duties stayed very similar – nothing much fell off my plate, I just got more responsibility and oversight in doing them independently, or leading rather than assisting with the projects. That makes it hard to describe the jobs separately on my resume without a lot of repetition, so I’ve often listed the titles & dates together with one block of text describing the job duties for all 3 positions. But now I’m working on federal resumes for the first time, and wondering if that approach still holds. Or if not (if I should list and describe each position separately), any advice on how to do so without a lot of repetition? Thanks!

    1. KR*

      I’m having this problem. My job has evolved and turned into so many different things over the years it’s hard to list it in a clear way on a resume.

    2. Sualah*

      No idea on the federal resume, but it was suggested to me to do it like this:

      Current Employer, Current Job Title, Start Date – current
      Promotions: Job Title 1 to Job Title 2 (date), Job Title 2 to Job Title 3 (date)

      All job duties for all levels listed above as bullet points.

      Alison may have a better suggestion, but this has worked for me at my (extremely) large company (but I have mostly been doing internal transfers, not applying out).

    3. LC*

      Personally, I’d list the job title in bold, then underneath list Most Recent Position in italics (along with the dates you’ve held that particular position) and bullet-pointed achievements. Below that put your prior position at the company in italics (along with dates of employment) and beneath that relevant bullet points. Etc.

      So it would look something like:
      Teapots Inc. Somewhere, IN
      Teapot Policy Associate, Jan. 2015 – Present
      -Managed ten-person department, increasing teapot productivity by X% over Y months
      Teapot Policy Analyst, March 2014 – Dec. 2014
      -Designed and implement new teapot delivery system, reducing shipping error by Z%
      Teapot Policy Assistant, Nov. 2013 – Feb. 2014
      -Coordinated accounts for twenty-person teapot team

      If you’re focusing on achievements (rather than duties) in each position, there should be enough to differentiate each position, and it may give the reader a better sense of why you were promoted and what your new responsibilities were.

      However, if your jobs really were quite similar, you might just list your prior positions as a bullet point, like:

      Teapots Inc. Somewhere, IN
      Teapot Policy Associate, Nov. 2013 – Present
      -Managed ten-person department, increasing teapot productivity by X% over Y months
      -Designed and implement new teapot delivery system, reducing shipping error by Z%
      -Coordinated accounts for twenty-person teapot team
      -Previous positions: Teapot Policy Assistant (Nov. 2013 – Feb. 2014); Teapot Analyst (March 2014 – Jan. 2015)

  47. all aboard the anon train*

    So, something came up in the office yesterday that I’d love to get people’s opinions about. I found out a coworker is moonlighting during work hours.

    This coworker, let’s call her Jane, is actually a former team member. I switched from her team to a different team six months ago because my former team was pretty toxic, so I don’t really work with her anymore. But when I did work with her, it was awful. She never did any of her work and passed it off complaining that it was too hard to understand or no one told her how to do it (despite the fact that we have multiple training docs on the processes and people sat with her to teach her – but she wanted someone to sit with her every single time she did a project). She’s been at the company for over 5 years and is not new to the workforce (she’s at least 20 years older than me). I ended up doing most of her job and my former boss was okay with it because Jane was her favorite and she didn’t want to overwhelm her.

    Jane used to disappear for long stretches during the day claiming she was so stressed she needed a walk or that she had a medical appointment. Come to find out, she was at masseuse classes. Now she’s taking her long breaks or “medical appointments” during the day to meet with clients. I found out from someone in a different department who actually scheduled a lunch time massage and saw Jane there, and when she looked up the massage company’s scheduling online, she said that Jane has available appointment times scheduled periodically throughout the work week – sometimes up to three hours a day. I checked out of curiosity and it’s true. Today, for instance, she has available slots available from 11 – 1 and then from 3 – 4.

    My former boss wouldn’t actually do anything if she found out. I feel bad for the two former team members I left behind who are now dealing wit Jane’s flakiness and having to do her work. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with moonlighting in a different industry – I do freelance work, but I don’t think it’s okay to work a second job while you’re working your first job. Should I say something to someone or ignore this completely?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d report it because she is stealing form the company. She is being paid to be there working, and instead she is working for someone else.
      I am a massage therapist part time and I work after hours and on weekends and do my 9-5 job during the day. There are plenty of places to work outside of office hours. Wow.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        I know! I freelance after hours and on the weekends, but I would never consider doing freelance work during the workday.

        1. Anonymosity*

          I’ve done it, but ONLY after all my primary work was done and on unpaid lunch hours. And it didn’t require me to leave the premises.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            When I read “moonlighting during their workday” my eyebrows disappeared into my hairline. At SecondJob, someone had apparently done just that, passed on projects because they were “too busy” and then when they were away one day, someone went on their computer to retrieve some work and found… all kinds of projects that weren’t on the company docket. Needless to say, their term of employment was drastically short after that and it became a cautionary tale/gossip that was spread around.

            I can sort of understand that if you’ve got some sort of side business, you might need to answer some quick e-mails during the day or take a call during lunch. But to leave for hours a day to take classes to become a masseuse? Wow. That takes some extra strong lady balls. It’s one thing if this is some sort of arrangement Jane has with her boss and she’s not getting paid for the time she’s taking off/is effectively now a part-time employee, but if she’s still getting paid for that time? Double wow.

    2. LCL*

      What Jane is doing would get her fired where I work. I would send her boss a link to Jane’s online schedule. You aren’t outing her; she is outing herself by posting her availability on line.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        I really don’t think Jane’s boss would do anything based on my experience with her. I was considering sending it to Jane’s boss’s boss or HR.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          This is what I’d do. I’d maybe include a note to the effect of “I hate feeling like I need to go around Boss, but based on my past experience on his team, I’m concerned it wouldn’t be addressed at all.” Added bonus that you’re calling out Jane AND the boss that enables this awful behavior.

    3. Sunflower*

      I would talk to Jane’s co-workers. I mean, I’m 99% sure this is what is going on but…idk. In order to go forward, the proof you’d present is a little shaky- mostly because you’d have to say X employee saw Jane there. Also, what if Jane was taking PTO during this appt? Not likely but I’m putting myself in Jane’s shoes who, if she is crazy enough to try to do this, she will come up with a ton of ways to deny it.

      If it was Jane’s coworkers they might have a better case saying ‘Jane frequently disappears throughout the day and it’s interfering with her work because of X and Y. I’m not sure if Jane took PTO at the time but another employee saw her working somewhere else mid-day.’

      If I was them, I would definitely escalate it though if former boss refuses to do anything. Something tells me former bosses boss would not be happy about her handling of this.

      2. all aboard the anon train*

        It definitely wasn’t PTO because she made a point at the end of last year to say that she had all her vacation and sick days to use up before they were lost in the new year.

        I definitely worked with her when she was disappearing and it interfered with my work, but there wasn’t much I could do because my former boss just told me to take over Jane’s projects. My former coworkers still on the team are now in that situation. So basically, nothing has really changed from when I worked on the team 6 months ago, just that we now know the reason for her long absences during the work day.

        Though I don’t think the evidence is that shaky because there’s an online schedule with her name and the massage place has her profile and times of availability listed, so it’s not like she’s hiding that she’s working two jobs at the same time. Maybe she thought she’d never get caught?

        1. all aboard the anon train*

          Okay, I say definitely, but I’m 99% sure it wasn’t PTO just because at the end of the year her calendar marked her out of the office for three and a half weeks which is all out PTO, vacation, and sick time combined.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I think HR would take this very seriously – I’d go talk to them instead of your boss. We recently fired someone for working on his online sneaker business from the office (using the mailroom’s resources and his work computer). He was warned once, didn’t stop, and got fired.

      1. Rubyrose*

        I don’t know where people like this get the nerve to do these things!

        I had someone once who was using company time and resources to write a monthly newsletter for a national political party. When confronted with it, there was no remorse.

  48. AndersonDarling*

    I run a program that has really high licensing fees. Every once in a while someone will ask for a license and I feel like it is wrong to say the equivalent of “It’s really expensive and what you need isn’t worth it.” So I beat around the bush asking what they need and providing it from other sources. I think this non-direct method may make me look like a jerk for only letting the star employees have access.
    Am I being to sensitive and I should just say, “This costs $XXXX. We can’t invest that into your request.” It just sounds crass to quote dollar amounts.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think it’s totally okay to say, “Okay, can you give me more information about what you need it for? and “Actually, this license is pretty expensive and I think you can do what you need with [resource] instead.”

      I have some oversight for our purchasing and people have no idea what stuff costs, and I have to redirect them all the time using language like the above.

    2. another IT manager*

      Does the license come out of your budget or theirs? I usually tell my people something like “It’s $XXX, paid annually.” Responses range from “Oh, nevermind,” through “Let me check with my boss,” all the way to, “Yeah, go ahead. You want an email for backup?”

      Technically, I think the money comes out of my budget, but some people don’t really understand the idea of licensing and think that if we have one license we can put it on ALL the computers.

  49. Big Hat No Cattle*

    My company is in the process of being bought. It’s scheduled to wrap up later this year. Obviously, I’m keeping my eyes open for new opportunities outside of the company, but honestly – nothing has really appealed to me. I like my job, like my coworkers, have a lot of flexibility, and it doesn’t stress me out too much and I really hate to give that up…unless it was an out-of-this-world opportunity.

    Since the acquisition was announced last year, people have been leaving left and right. Generally speaking, we are really short staffed and people are being asked to do “less with more.” They aren’t backfilling positions unless they are very critical to the business.

    I’m debating on whether or not to stay until it’s “my time to go” or really taking anything that’s comparable to what I have now.

    1. Searching*

      I wonder if we work for the same company? ;) Except in our company, people appear to be hanging on to their jobs. I think the reason is that if they last until the deal goes through, and they are let go afterwards as part of post-acquisition downsizing, their severance package doubles.

      1. Big Hat No Cattle*

        Insurance? ;)

        I do know a lot of employees who have been here for a long time (10+ years or more) are hanging on because of the severance packages they are *supposed* to receive. But I’m pretty sure they aren’t being doubled. I’ve only been here 5 years, and according to what I’ve been told I would get, it’s not worth hanging on for.

    2. Ann Cognito*

      I would start your job search now. There are other good jobs out there offering the flexibility and good colleagues you currently have, but you might have to search a bit and that can take time. You’re in a good position because you can look while you have another job, and hopefully find something good that you like while still employed. Try to avoid waiting until you have no choice as then you’re under more stress and could end-up taking something just to have income. I mean, you could end-up in that situation, but right now you have the luxury of being somewhat selective.

  50. March*

    Tonight is my Iron Ring ceremony! It’s pretty special for newly-graduated engineers in Canada, I’m excited.

    On another note, I leave next week for a three-week vacation to celebrate my graduation. Which is great and I’m excited, but since I’ve applied to a couple jobs, I’d hate to be contacted for an interview and then not respond because I’m out of town. I’m going to put an out-of-office message on my email, saying that I’m out of town until May [X] and I’ll respond within a few days, but I don’t know if there’s anything else to do. Is there anything else I should do?

    1. Ralish*

      Are you going someplace that will have Wi-Fi access? If so, I’d recommend checking email every so often.

      1. March*

        It’s a tour of eleven countries in Europe, so I would think that the hotels would have Wi-Fi for guests. I’ll definitely check every few days though.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          Even hostels have wifi and computers so you can check your e-mail. You’ll be fine!

    2. Sadsack*

      Forward your work phone to voicemail and have a great vacation! You might add in your message that they can call Bob in an emergency or something like that, if it is appropriate.

      1. Sadsack*

        Oh geez sorry I completely misread your post. I was thinking you were leaving the office for vacation. Never mind!

    3. Jules the First*

      Congrats, March! That’s a big deal and a huge amount of work. Enjoy that vacation!

  51. Anon For This One*

    A few of you might remember when I posted a few months ago asking how long I should wait to be concerned that my new manager didn’t seem to be learning anything or engaging in the work of the team at all…well, I guess his boss went ahead and answered that question for me because he got fired yesterday. He still hadn’t gained any more knowledge than what he’d learned in his first or second week here, and the few projects he had picked up had made zero progress in weeks (these were projects anyone else on the team could’ve done in a couple days, including the 2 people who got hired after him). Never mind actually doing anything managerial – his team lead was basically running the department, including managing the few of us that don’t report to him (we reported directly to the manager).

    Really thrilled with his boss for going through with this. Seems like we never hear about stories here of ineffective managers actually being dealt with, so it was refreshing to see such cut and dry action being taken. Yet another piece of evidence for why she’s the best boss I’ve ever had.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I like this boss a lot. Nice to hear of a boss who is not afraid to do their job.

  52. Grey*

    If 10 of your customers are happy, they’ll always tell you. But if just one is unhappy, who do they call? HQ, of course. I wish there was a good way to tell the happy ones to call my bosses at the main office. I’d like to tell them but I imagine the conversation will go like this: “Grey wanted me to tell you what a great job he’s doing!”

    1. ZSD*

      Are the customers calling or emailing to tell you they’re happy? If they’re emailing, I think it’s fine to forward the emails to your boss as an FYI.

      1. Grey*

        It always in person, like, “Good morning. Hey, great job since you took over. It’s so much nicer here.” Or, I’ll go the extra mile for someone and hear, “Wow. Thank you. I really appreciate the job you’re doing.”

        My employer is very much concerned about our image at this location so it would be nice if they knew I was delivering.

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          Is there any type of survey system your company uses? Since you said “this location” I’m envisioning you work at a large company. If not, maybe that’s a fun initiative you or someone you manage could work on! I’ve seen these before, it’s typically something like a web survey or compliment phone number I can call that gets sent to me by email.

          Or, you could ask your boss if they would mind you sending out an informal customer satisfaction survey by email, and you could ask specific questions and leave room for comments. Then when you receive them back, simply forward to your boss. Not sure if these would be practical for you and your company, but just some ideas. :)

          1. Grey*

            That’s a good idea and not an unusual thing to do in this business (For context, I’m an apartment manager). Maybe I’ll attach a feedback form to my next newsletter so people can comment on the property and not just me, specifically.

            1. Sarah Nicole*

              Yay, so glad my suggestion might help! Good luck, if your customers have said these nice things about you, they’re sure to repeat them on such a survey.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      My husband and his friend once in a while would get people who were extremely complimentary. So they would point blank ask, “Will you tell my boss?” I can’t replicate the voice inflection here, but the voice inflection was soft/inquisitive. They were usually told YES, and the customer dashed off a letter/email to the boss.

      Where this starts is with you having a higher awareness of just how gushy the customer is, choose the customers that gush the most. Of course, people who ask what they can do for you, those folks are easy. It’s just a matter of having the wording prepared so you can answer them.
      Them:”You have done such a wonderful job here. Can I buy you a coffee for your ride home?
      You: No, you don’t need to buy me a coffee, but if you wanted to drop a line to my boss, it would go in my file and be a feather in my cap!

      Them: I tell everyone what a great job you do!
      You: Would you mind telling my boss, also?

      Them: Is there any small way I can give you a token of thanks for the super work you did here?
      You: Well as a matter of fact, if you have time, I know my boss loves getting compliments about his crew from customers.

    3. Roll Fizzlebeef*

      I once sent a “happy customer” letter to HQ after a very positive customer service experience. It seemed appreciated :)

      Not sure how you’d convince other customers to do that though.

  54. INTP*

    This topic came up in a couple of ways this week, so I thought I’d ask about my real-life situation. (Well, not mine, in that I’m not directly involved, but raised an eyebrow.)

    Thoughts on a former coworker, current somewhat-colleague (different company that works with the old company, small industry, still makes regular visits to the site) asking you if his kid can rent a room for an internship? Or a random acquaintance that you did not work with?

    My brother is likely to get an internship for my stepdad’s former employer in a very expensive city with a tight rental market. Stepdad thinks he’s going to email a bunch of people he knows offering rent money for them to give my brother a room for the summer and it’s going to work out easily (I do think he plans to offer slightly above market rate rent for a shared room so maybe someone will be glad to offer). Obviously this is a far cry from a boss sending his nephew to live in your house but it still seems a little intrusive imo – everyone else’s thoughts? (I don’t plan to interfere or need personal advice here, just curious in light of the discussions this week. Apparently expecting employees to house interns is A Thing for at least two parents on the planet?)

    1. the cake is a pie*

      There are two potential issues here. First, would any of the people he e-mails feel pressured to agree thinking that it would look bad to say no (e.g., if your stepdad is influential in the field)? Second, if your brother is in his teens or early twenties, it might come across as “millennials who have their parents do the work for them.” I know this is an obnoxious stereotype but it’s sadly something that people seem to believe and so could make an iffy impression.

    2. Jacket*

      I agree with The Cake is a Pie. However I do think this is a little different, because stepdad is emailing people he knows — ie friends, yes? Not current employees? and he’s offering fair monetary compensation? I mean it might be better for brother to email saying, “stepdad said I should reach out to you.” But reaching out to your friends and offering them three months of rent money to house your kid is pretty reasonable, and even if your stepdad *is* super duper influential in the industry, it’s a request, not a requirement. But it would obviously be best if he clearly understands he’s asking for a big favor. And having brother do the contacting would be good practice for brother, but depending on the contacts it may actually just make more sense for stepdad to reach out — plus it gives him a chance to reconnect with some folks. There is some potential awkwardness but I think you have to just trust your stepdad’s instincts on this one. Those contacts may not be able to offer a room but they may be able to refer him to someone looking for a roommate or subletter for the summer. I dunno, I think it’s probably fine.

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      I think Stepdad would do better to e-mail these friends of his a generic “Son has an internship at XYZ for the summer and we’re looking for a rental for him. Does anyone know of a sublet or a place that rents rooms in a good/nice/clean/safe/whatever area? We’re hoping to pay $ThisMuch but we are not certain if that is a reasonable amount.” and then leave it up to the friends if they want to clear out a room and make some money on the side. These friends might have some leads or ideas on places that are available. Sometimes when I’m driving, I’ll see “room for rent” signs up that are probably not listed with an agency or online.

      1. TootsNYC*

        he can add, “Or do you know anyone reliable who’d be willing to rent him a room in their home for the summer?”

        And leave the ‘hint, hint’ unsaid.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Definitely third party the request and let people self-select.

        As DB is saying here, “Does anyone know of anyone who has rooms…..”

  55. NoName for this*

    Can people who work in payroll tell me if all the jobs are understaffed or otherwise time consuming?

    I am close to someone who had a payroll job for a small company. The company kept adding new business units — mostly under 50 employees — and payroll kept growing and getting more complicated because new workers were in other states, including California. The job went from around 60 hours a week to 70-plus hours a week when the company made a disorganized transition from Ceridian to ADP.

    The worker finally escaped last November to a job that looked like, based on a lot of probing during the interview process, to have more reasonable hours. But the department was reorganized and then the hiring manager left for another job where the hours would be more reasonable. In addition, another payroll worker left abruptly, leaving no instructions for the payroll responsibilities she handled. All of a sudden, the two departures meant the two people remaining in payroll were doing the work of three. They are exhausted.

    The employer says there is no money for additional staff. Both payroll workers are job hunting, but they are so tired they may not be coming across very well. And it isn’t like they can decide to put off any of the work because it is lower priority.

    Are all salaried payroll jobs this kind of indentured servitude? How is it possible to find out whether the job will be every-night-and-weekend? And is there temp work for Certified Payroll Professionals who want a life?

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      I’ve had two payroll jobs and one was kind of how you described, and the other was for a huge company with a lot of structure so the hours were totally normal. However, the one with the normal hours was hourly and the one with the crazy workload was salaried.

      I would think longer term temp work in the form of coverage for LOA, etc. would be available.

      1. NoName for this*

        Thanks. I am just standing at the sidelines watching someone I care about work themselves into exhaustion. They know it is bad, but management seems to be indifferent.

  56. Ad Astra*

    So, I’ve got my first review at my newish job coming up, and I’m supposed to fill out some paperwork on my own ahead of time. The paperwork asks me to identify one thing about my performance that needs to change. I’ve been thinking about this for days and I have no idea what to write. As far as I know, I’m doing everything right. I haven’t received any negative feedback. I’m very interested in my manager’s answer to this question, because there’s always something I could do to improve. I just don’t know what that that is.

    How do I deal with this? Obviously, I don’t want to write “Actually, I’m perfect, so this doesn’t apply to me.”

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve answered similar questions with “I’d like to build better relationships with my co-workers.” It’s an easy out for a tough question.

    3. Confused Publisher*

      If you were evaluating yourself as an outsider, is there anything you do where you feel even slightly less confident than in other areas, whether that be a process or a discrete task? I found that quite useful as a starting point even though I was beating my set targets by miles.

    4. Ad Astra*

      I’m going to give these answers some thought, but for context, my job is proofreader at an advertising agency. The primary way of measuring my success/failure is how many times we have to write off an expense because of a mistake. Since I got here, there have been no write-ups. So, it’s kind of a weird job because I do essentially the same task all day. I think my managers will have some useful feedback in this meeting, but it will be the first time I’ve heard any of it.

      Maybe I should focus on learning more stuff, rather than doing something better?

    5. ThatGirl*

      I tend to say things like “continue learning as standards change” or “continue to improve processes” … basically, keep doing what you’re doing and keep learning on the job.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Everyone can always grow, so say that you are not sure how you can grow yourself at this point and you would like help figuring this out.

  57. Leaving post-promotion*

    Hi all, is there an amount of time that needs to pass after a promotion before it is considered acceptable to look for a new job? I was in an interview the other week and got a question from an interviewer to the effect of “You got promoted last year. Why are you leaving? That seems really soon.” At that point about 16 months had passed. I think I answered well, but it threw me off. Thoughts on how to answer?

    1. Erin*

      Hm, yeah 16 months isn’t nothing. I suppose it also depends on how long you’ve been with the organization.

      Remember, they’re looking for stuff that could be red flaggy, and they want to ensure you won’t leave them right away if you’re hired. In this case, they must be wondering, “If I hire her and she does well, and we promote her, will she then use that to just move up the ladder somewhere else?” So just try to address that in your answer.

      You could also say something like, “I actually am really happy with my role and responsibilities since getting promoted, but the job ad for this position just kind of fell into my lap. I’d been following your organization for awhile and I’m really interested in X work that you do – I figured it couldn’t hurt to throw my hat in the ring and have a conversation about it.”

      1. Leaving post-promotion*

        Thx! I was struggling b/c in my current org is that we tend to take on more work and responsibilities long before we ever get money/title change, so I was struggling on how to say that without sounding negative or raising some other issue/red flag.

  58. Anon for this*

    Regular commenter going anon. Last week I posted about what I thought was a promising conversation with a hiring manager about my interest/background for a potentially great position for which I’m an excellent candidate. I still hadn’t heard anything from the hiring manager about first round interviews for this position, so I reached out to a colleague in the know who said that the hiring manager has completed first-round interviews and on-site interviews are going to people who have little to no experience working in this type of organization. I’ve seen a number of orgs in this field appear to be hell-bent on the new/shiny/disruptive candidate (who often doesn’t work out). Unfortunately, I think I resemble the last person in this role too closely, and they’ve decided to go very much outside-the-box with this hire. Very frustrating to be a well-qualified and experienced candidate who couldn’t even land the first-round interview. Time to figure out for which role I’M the “disruptive candidate” and go for that.

    1. Mirilla*

      That sucks. What a ridiculous way to go about hiring. I hope you find something even better!

  59. Delyssia*

    How do you tell your boss, who works in another office a few states away, that you’re at your breaking point? To complicate it further, I suspect that my manager can’t do more than sympathize, and it’ll take director involvement to actually make any changes. I don’t want to start off by going over my manager’s head, but I also don’t want to sit and listen to meaningless sympathetic noises.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, I have A, B, C, D, E and F on my plate. I also need to look at G, H and I. Then there is J and K that I cannot even get next to. I am discouraged to the point of overwhelmed. What can we do here?”

      My one question to you, is it reasonable that the manager or director can even fix the situation?

      1. Delyssia*

        I talked to the director a couple months ago about the fact that my current workload is not sustainable long term, and she talked about the possibility of hiring someone to take part of it within the next few months. I have no idea if that will be moving ahead soon or not, but when I wrote my question above (I’m in a better mental place now than I was yesterday morning), I was about ready to just quit. I was running through scenarios on how long my savings would last, what kind of job I could get quickly to get by for a while, etc.

        And the thing is, I know that as soon as I give notice, they will be ready to do whatever they can to keep me. I just don’t know how to get them to take it seriously that I’m at my breaking point without actually turning in my notice, since I feel like that’s pretty much the nuclear option here.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Unfortunately all we have is our words.
          “I need us to talk about this and I need you to take me seriously.”

          OR
          “I really need help here. I cannot sustain this workload. What is the time frame for getting help on this?”

          OR
          ” We have discussed this before and I feel that I have failed to get across how serious this situation is. I can not sustain this work load. I need help. With each week that goes by the situation gets worse. I have been doing this for x months. What is the time line for change in this situation?”

  60. Mimmy*

    Another question – In a nutshell: Anyone here feel that they write way better than they speak? I think this has affected me professionally, and it’s disheartening.

    Last week, I attended a lecture and panel and came to a horrible realization: I think I come across a little….stupid…around professionals. I can write a high-quality paper on a topic of interest, no problem. I can also understand discussions of topics and I nod in agreement and am filled with passion for the topic at hand. Yet, when *I* start to speak off the cuff about a topic, hardly anything coherent comes out of my mouth. I just want to be able to have an intelligent conversation with other professionals and even people or families seeking advise.

    I think that might be the heart of my problem: I know in my head that I’m probably better suited for something that doesn’t involve a lot of public interaction (working with information or data, for example), but there’s a part of me that misses the direct contact work and mourns the fact that it takes me too long to process a person’s situation and come up with suggestions. Maybe it’d just take some practice. And forget about urgent or crisis situations :/

    As the song says, I should just “let it go”. (sorry, couldn’t resist!)

    What I probably need is a career counselor, but between my own experiences and what I’ve read here on AAM, I’m a little skittish to go back to my previous resources; plus, I know private ones can be expensive.

    Sorry I know I keep harping on this. But I’m determined to make something happen once I’m done with school at the end of May.

    1. Mimmy*

      Ha! I talk about writing better than I speak, and I write: “…and even people or families seeking advise“?? Should read “advice”

    2. S0phieChotek*

      I hear you. I think I write pretty well (when I take the time) but in front of people or people I do not know well, I think I sound rather uninteresting and incoherent. Some people (often I think of professors and preachers) seem to be able to speak passionately and coherently with (few/no) notes…and I am always envious of those types!

    3. all aboard the anon train*

      Yes! My problem is that I have too many thoughts and they all tend to overlap so sometimes I’ll lose track of which one I want to talk about. So sometimes I just ramble, which is pretty awful and no one likes a rambler.

      I also had this problem growing up when we had to go around the room and read aloud. I always read faster than I spoke, so I’d stumble over words because I couldn’t read them aloud as quick as I was reading them in my mind (if that makes any sense). I was always afraid it made me look stupid.

    4. Ad Astra*

      I’m definitely a much stronger writer than speaker. I find that I really struggle in offices that are particularly formal, while a more casual environment does a better job of masking this shortcoming. I also don’t interact with the public or clients at all in my position, so it doesn’t come up a lot.

      Practice, though, is your best bet.

    5. Myrin*

      Oh man, I feel you on the writing better than speaking. I’m on my way to becoming an academic in German literary studies. I am German and I am in Germany. I should be a great speaker. I’m widely known among my professors and peers for writing excellent papers. And yet… I basically just arglbargl when you meet me in real life. I mean, if I really commit to it or when I don’t think about it at all, I can speak very well (for example, I teach a class and generally find myself being very eloquent there) but when I’m in some kind of inbetween-no-man’s-land it just becomes blablubb. (As an example, I met with my mentor/advisor today regarding something about my studies, but it was an informal meeting and I basically just blubbered my way through it. Fortunately he knows that I don’t write like that.)

      As an additional hurdle, I almost exclusively read English stuff which makes so many English words come to me faster than the German ones. Highly embarrassing for a native speaker in general and especially so for someone whose entire job is being good at Germaning. I just cringe hearing myself talk sometimes and I need to really commit to reading high-level German literature again because bah! (The eloquence, here it is again.)

      1. Tau*

        Shall we have a mutual huddle of woe re: bad Germaning? I also almost exclusively read in English, and although at least my job is in no way based on my ability to German, I still feel miserable at how badly my written German has atrophied. It takes me a lot more focus to read German than English, when I speak German now it generally comes out severely Denglish and peppered with English words because I can’t think of the German ones, and my written German is a mess. I keep meaning to read something in German – the Spiegel, Faust, effing children’s books even, because I know it’s just being out of practice. And then I come home and open up the English-language blogs and crack open the English-language books.

    6. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Yes – this is difficult for me. Actually, I have difficulty following meetings and getting a grasp on outcomes, especially when they aren’t clearly outlined in the meeting. And I have difficulty talking on the phone (work, life, doesn’t matter). I find it hard to organize my thoughts coherently and make an argument speaking, but written? No problem – easy as can be.

      I think its partly due to shyness and partly due to lack of self confidence and partly due to something about how my brain processes information. I work with plenty of people who DONT stop to think and just start talking and utter, senseless crap comes out of their mouths most of the time, and they think its gold.

      Ive been in the workforce 15 years in a counseling type role (but not social work) and this is still a problem that comes up, only it seems to have gotten worse in the last 5 years when I have had managers who came down on me like a ton of bricks for not speaking up in meetings, which just drove greater anxiety. Its a little easier now with my current boss and workplace, but hes a phone talker (and I usually have to edit most of his written communication for clarity) and his big thing has been to get me talking on the phone more frequently. Sometimes I wish people would just let me be!

    7. Tau*

      This is… not exactly the same, but I have a speech disorder that likes to rear its head on a regular basis. Apart from the basic frustration of wanting to say something and it not coming out, one of the consequences of this is that I am pretty sure a lot of people are going to initially misjudge me based on my speech – I know the stereotypes stuttering gets tagged with and they’re not good.

      In all honesty, the way I deal with it is mainly just… ignoring it. *g* I figure that as I spend time around people it’ll become clear that I am actually a perfectly intelligent, confident, capable person who just so happens to have a neurological issue that makes talking a little tricky sometimes, and anyone who fails to see that is someone whose opinion I shouldn’t care about anyway. Getting worked up about it will just make me overly anxious when meeting new people which will exacerbate the whole thing. I can’t control the first impression I make, but first impressions aren’t everything and time will give the other person a more well-rounded picture of who I am and what I’m capable of.

      Your mileage may vary, particularly since for me fixing the underlying problem is not an option and it may be for you.

      1. Jen*

        Do you mind if I ask for an honest opinion? I don’t hear very well and one of the offices I go to in order to pick things up has someone with a stutter. I don’t always wear my hearing aid since I am just out and it is a ‘hey, while you are in that city can you pick this up?” type situation.

        Since he is mostly the one I interact with I feel like I am insensitive when I ask him to repeat what he has said, and I feel like telling him about my hearing issues comes across as an excuse but it is extremely hard in this situation to sub in some lip reading to make what I think I am hearing make sense.

        I am fine with hearing women’s voices most of the time since my loss is in a certain section of pitch (or whatever) and I have a much harder time with men.

        If you were the gentlemen in question, any idea of how to approach this better?

    8. Ama*

      Oh this is definitely me. I have two writing degrees and have been told by bosses that written communications are my strong point, but I seem to have trouble getting my point across sometimes in conversation (especially if it’s a conversation I don’t have advance notice of — I’m better in meetings/conference calls I have time to prepare reference sheets for but an unexpected phone call can really throw me off).

      Practice is your best bet, but if there are common topics that you find yourself stumbling over and you can put reference sheets somewhere that’s easy to see, that can really help (a lot of times, even just being able to quickly see the first part of, say, my cheat sheet on our grant eligibility criteria helps calm me down and get me focused).

    9. Peggy*

      I’ve heard good things from a variety of sources about Toast Masters. Chapters aren’t necessarily attached to companies, and it’s not exclusively about making public speeches. You get a supportive environmentto practice in and useful feedback. This kind of practice will eventually translate to other contexts.

      Improv class at a comedy club or local community college may help as well. Again, they provide a place to practice and get different ideas. They can be fun, too.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      It’d be sad if you let go of this just because you did not realize you needed practice or more familiarity.
      Yet I don’t want to push anyone toward something that they genuinely cannot do- because that is so wildly unfair.

      Is there anyone around you who you trust to give you truthful feedback?

      Personally, I think that I sound like an idiot every time I speak. But I look around and people are nodding and taking me seriously. With the written word, I can reread and beef it up. With the spoken word, once it is said, it’s over. I have come to the conclusion that many people understand the difficulty of expressing thoughts in a group setting and people cut us more slack than we realize. I have also seen people ask questions to help fill in my gaps that I make as I speak.

      Where’s this put me? I am probably an average (not great) speaker with bad self talk. Lighten up on your self talk and look at people’s faces. How are they reacting to you?

      I hope you laugh. Just recently I was at a meeting. I needed further info to do what they asked me to do. One person was CLEARLY getting very restless as my questions went on and on. Other people were answering my questions. Yes, I will watch myself the next time but I will not dwell on that one restless person either.

  61. fishy*

    I’m applying for an IT job at a middle school. On the part of the online job application where it asks you to upload documents like your resume and transcripts (and teaching certificate… I’m guessing they use the same application for both teachers and non-teachers, because this is definitely not a teaching job), one of the documents they want is a “letter of introduction”. I’ve never heard that term in the context of a job application before, so I’m not sure what they want. Is it like a cover letter? Or maybe I should say, how is it different from a cover letter? Or is it something else entirely? I’m probably overthinking this, I’m just worried that I’ll look clueless if I submit something that isn’t what they’re looking for.

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      I would submit my cover letter. It sounds like that’s sort of what they’re looking for. In a way a cover letter “introduces” you and gives an overview of who you are and why you’re seeking the position, so I’d say it is totally acceptable.

      1. fishy*

        Thanks! Good to hear a cover letter is probably okay. I submitted my cover letter, so hopefully that’ll be good.

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          Good luck in the process! Oh I should have mentioned before that I have applied for jobs that have requested a “letter of interest,” and I sent a cover letter, of course crafted specifically for that job and company. I got the job for one of those, by the way, so I guess it worked for them. Besides, I applied for the job, so why do I need to say I’m interested?! Lol, just seemed so weird to me.

  62. Milton*

    I dropped the ball. I think…

    My boss was supposed to get back to me about a one day conference she wanted me to attend. I was down and expressed my excitement to go, but then she told me to hold my horses and that we needed approval from her boss for me to go. I never got approval or at least heard that I got approval. I also never followed up due to several work emergencies and illnesses my boss had leading up to the conference. I don’t even want to go anymore.

    Anyway, my question is, is there a way for me to email her and let her know that she won’t see me at the conference without sounding like an asshat? Or do I just not say anything and pretend it never happened? Ugh, palm–>forehead.

    1. Ann Cognito*

      I would do nothing. If she says anything about it later, you can say you had assumed she hadn’t gotten the approval from her boss, since that’s where you guys left off with the conversation. If she says you should have followed-up you can say you know now to do that next time.

    2. Jennifer*

      I think everyone’s forgotten about the conference by now, so it doesn’t matter. Just let it go, don’t mention it.

  63. super anon*

    Does anyone have any ideas on how to get your managers to respond to your emails or make you a priority to meet with? My managers are absentee and both have full time positions, neither is seconded into the role. We do not have an on-site managing director. One is a surgeon and doesn’t live in the same city I do. The other is in the office sporadically (a handful of times a month, if that) , and is nearly impossible to pin down when she is in the office. I have been in my position for nearly a year and have never had a one on one meeting with both of my bosses without other people being present. This is important because it’s the only way to get a decision from them. I’ve tried going to just one boss with my issues but that didn’t work to get direction either, because both need to talk together to make decisions, etc.

    I send emails as my primary method of communication, but more often than not I never get a response. I’ve tried every tip posted here in previous threads to get responses. I title emails with the action in the title – if it’s urgent and needs a response I write URGENT: in the title & include a date. I’ve asked via email multiple times to meet with both of them because I am having major issues with a coworker telling me to look for another job, and I wanted to talk to my bosses about it, but they never respond to meeting requests. The only time they meet with me is when they want to assign me more projects, even though I am already doing the work of 2 people.

    I am getting increasingly anxious and burnt out over the lack of direction or help from my bosses. They need to approve everything I do, but getting them to do so is nearly impossible. I made a huge mistake 2 months ago that severely impacted a project I was working on, and I haven’t been able to move forward with it since then, nor have I gotten any feedback. I worry every day that I will be fired, because I never get any feedback or direction, or even contact with them. The other 2 people who report directly to my bosses have weekly 1:1 phone calls with them – this has never been offered to me. I don’t know if they realize I’m floundering, but I am at a loss of how to bring it up directly to them and to ask for these meetings, when they don’t respond to me any other time I try to get in touch with them.

    This isn’t normal right? Is it even changeable? I’m already looking for another job, but the going is slow in my field and there isn’t a lot of openings… so I just accept that this is how it is and try to deal with it, even though being left completely in the dark makes me extremely anxious every single day?

    1. Student*

      You should try to set up a weekly 1:1 like the others have. Don’t wait for the boss to initiate it, just put it on the schedule and make the call.

      I deal with this too in my job. I have no idea what exactly is going on with your work, but here’s what happened for me:
      I stuck with it, kept sending the emails for a long time with no response, doing whatever I could on my own initiative and occasionally seizing some power to get things done.

      My boss was sticking me with the projects he didn’t care about or expected to fail. He never checked in because he didn’t care about the projects and had no interest in how I was getting along. When something went well, he’d take credit for it as if he’d been deeply involved, or even give credit to other team members who were not involved at all. When something went badly, he’d badmouth me to various bosses – sometimes when I wasn’t even involved in the project. It took me a long time to catch on due to the major isolation, so by the time I figured out what was happening a lot of damage had already been done. I was basically his official scapegoat.

      I’m moving on now. It’s rocky, as I’m still in the same job position, but transferring to different project leaders/departments. However, normal people here don’t work like absentee boss does. They treat me like I’m worth talking to and treating as a colleague. It’s a reaffirmation that normal people don’t do business that way. If your boss doesn’t value your work, then your boss doesn’t value you either and you need to look elsewhere.

      1. super anon*

        It isn’t possible for me to set up and make a call with my bosses. We have no communal schedule for everyone to see, and because there is 3 of us they would have to phone in to our teleconference line. The only way to get a meeting with them is to work with their 2 assistants and our admin to get a time slot to speak with them, and even if you can manage to get a time, more likely than not it is cancelled for a more important priority. Because they both work other jobs and one is doing surgery & clinic appointments multiple days of the week, just deciding to call them doesn’t fly.

        It’s an incredibly frustrating system – I don’t know if it’s even fixable, tbph.

    2. MillersSpring*

      Have you tried send them a meeting calendar request, titled “Weekly 1:1”? If they decline, then tell them that, like Jane and Fergus, you really need a regular time to meet with both of them together. To me the weird part is that they’re doing exactly what you want with two other coworkers.

      1. super anon*

        No, because that wouldn’t work. I don’t know their schedules to find a free time when I could schedule the meeting for, and one of them doesn’t use outlook calendars for me to see a meeting request too. When I had tried to schedule something before (not a meeting with me, but an appearance at an event) I was told to contact their EA to book the meeting. However, any time I email the EA to try to pin down a time to meet my emails are ignored, and my phone calls aren’t answered either.

        1. super anon*

          … that was a lot ruder and more direct than I meant it to be. Ahh, sorry!

          I work in an environment where I can’t try to book anything with them directly, and my emails to them to ask if we can please meet are ignored. Our admin could possibly get me time to meet with them, but whenever I ask her she brushes me off as well, or drops the ball. It’s all very frustrating, especially because a lot of my projects are starting to fail because of the lack of communication.

          1. Student*

            There is nothing good in this for you. Look for a new job.

            If you’re not quite there, it’s past time to just tell your boss this:
            “I need a weekly 1:1 with you to keep projects moving forward. As previously discussed, I tried booking that through your EA a couple of times, but I can’t get on your calendar. How do you suggest we proceed from here?”

    3. another IT manager*

      How did the other two reports get 1:1 meetings? Are they 1:1 or 2:1? It sounds like trying to get all three of you on the phone at the same time is extra-complicated, so I’d try getting one at a time.

      As far as approval goes, I think there was a discussion a few weeks ago about how to deal with a boss who won’t approve Things What Need Approving. Basically, you want to tell them what you’re planning to do, give them a timeframe to object, and go ahead and do it if you don’t get an objection. So: “Jane, Fergus, I’m going to send this version of the teapot report out at 4 PM unless you want edits.” If they object, ask how they want you to get confirmation/approval.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Send them an email.
      “Bosses, I have been sending you emails but I do not see your replies. Please understand that if I do not touch base with you at regular intervals the projects are in jeopardy. I see that Bob and Jane have weekly check-ins with you. I am requesting weekly check ins starting this week. These projects are in jeopardy and I need your approvals/decisions and other time sensitive inputs. Without these inputs these projects will stagnate.”

      Conversely ask Bob and Jane for tips/suggestions on how to get the bosses to respond to you.

  64. Rocky*

    I have a new hire, Francesca, who does great work and is extremely smart, energetic, and driven. Her major assignment requires working with Beauregard, a manager in another department. Francesca has repeatedly raised concerns with me about Beauregard’s behavior. The concerns boil down to:

    1. He is often overbearing in verbal communication
    2. His response to email is slow, at best
    3. He doesn’t follow up consistently on important business with outside stakeholders
    4. He asks Francesca to do work that his team should be handling.

    For the record, Beauregard is my peer, I have a good relationship with him, AND I 100% agree with 1-4. To me it’s just annoying behavior from a new manager with a steep learning curve, but Francesca is much more concerned. She thinks that 1-3 in particular are damaging their relationships with important stakeholders, and could impact the success of their project. For example, Beauregard is our designated liaison to important collaborators in the Coffee Pots Division. Some people in the Coffee Pots Division keep contacting Francesca, even after she redirects them to Beauregard. Francesca thinks they want to work with her instead, because he’s so difficult.

    At our last one-on-one meeting, she went on for 10 minutes (yes, I timed it) about her issues with Beauregard, and concluded by saying she’s afraid he’ll drop the ball on their whole project. My response was, “How can I help you with this?” She said she wants me to “facilitate” things with Beauregard. I am pretty sure she hoped that I would go read him the riot act. What I told her was:
    1. We can both point out Beauregard’s overbearing communication neutrally, when it happens. For example, it’s fine to say, “Please don’t interrupt me,” or “You seemed really annoyed with that vendor rep – did I miss something?” But I’m not Beauregard’s manager so I can’t demand that he tone it down, or else.
    2. We’ve talked about how Beauregard doesn’t respond quickly to email, so it’s a good idea to stop by his office or set up a meeting when something is urgent.
    3. It’s not your responsibility to manage his business relationships. Don’t try to work with stakeholders on his behalf, schedule his meetings for him, or do damage control. If he mis-manages his relationships, it’s on him.
    4. I’ve talked with you and Beauregard about this before. You can’t help with teapot production because I need you to spend 100% of your time on teapot marketing. If he doesn’t agree with that, he can talk to me directly.

    Finally, I told her that if someone else drops the ball on a project she’s working on, she won’t be blamed. I think this is what a lot of the fretting is about – she’s new and has one high-profile project, and could be catastrophizing that if someone senior to her messes it up, she could be the scapegoat. I also think she’s expecting Beauregard to prioritize this project as highly as she does, when in reality it’s one of many high-priority projects he’s juggling.

    I just talked with Beauregard about how the project is going, and it was a totally unremarkable conversation. He did not indicate any kind of conflict with Francesca. I don’t agree with some of Beauregard’s approach to this project, but it’s going just fine. I don’t see a reason to escalate things because one of my staff is worried that he could cause something bad to happen later. If I saw evidence that Beauregard’s behavior was actually threatening the project or Francesca’s effectiveness, I’d definitely address it.

    Does this seem reasonable? Is there something here I’m not seeing?

    1. Sadsack*

      One thing I wonder us, how often is he attempting to give her work her team should do? Does she have to remind him every week that he needs to give that work to his team? I’d be frustrated if I were Francesca in that case, it is probably uncomfortable for her to have to keep telling a manager to do his own work.

      1. Turtle Candle*

        Yeah, I had a situation once where someone kept trying to push projects on me. My boss had my back in the sense of saying ‘you can tell him no,’ but the overhead of saying “No, I don’t work on X,” “No, I don’t work on X,” “No, I don’t work on X,” over and over, week after week, sometimes with pushback that I then had to deal with (“oh but it would be easy for you, just tack it onto Y”) was demoralizing and wearying. In my case I finally had a meeting with my boss where I said, okay look, he has asked me to do something that is clearly his/his team’s purview fifteen times in the past ten weeks, and they’re the same things over and over, so it’s obviously not that he doesn’t understand the boundaries of my work vs. his team’s work–he’s just continuing to try for some reason. (Unspoken: because he’s trying to wear me down until I give up and do it, probably. Or he thought I was his to ‘borrow’ whenever I had ‘free time.’ Or something. I don’t know.)

        When she saw the numbers, she went, well crap, that’s clearly a problem, I can see why you’re frustrated. And she talked to him and the behavior stopped. But I doubt I would have stayed in that position long had she just said ‘oh, just keep telling him no.’

      2. Rocky*

        I think it’s happening a couple times a month. The first time the request was directed to me (can Francesca help us with this), and I said absolutely not, all her time is committed to xyz (I have my director’s backing on this as well. The answer is definitely ABSOLUTELY NOT). I get that it’s exhausting and demoralizing to have to keep saying no, even if you have 100% backing from management.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If he is still asking, that is a problem. He has been told no. He is earning every inch of disrespect that Francesca is starting to feel.

    2. Kelly L.*

      Well, my first instinct is to wonder if Francesca is actually right–maybe stakeholders are getting disgruntled, and maybe they tell her but don’t tell you, for whatever reason.

      But if you’re sure they’re not, I’d recommend just telling her “don’t worry about the stakeholders, they know how he is, and pretty much what you just told us–that if he screws up, it won’t come back on her.

      1. Rocky*

        Thanks. I’m going to just continue to reinforce “If someone else screws up, it’s not your fault.” If she had evidence of a disgruntled stakeholder I think she would tell me. Like if someone told her, “I know I’m supposed to talk to Beauregard about this, but he doesn’t respond to my emails and you do,” I would definitely escalate things.

    3. Student*

      She thinks this project is failing. That kills morale, especially in people who care deeply about their work.

      Your options are:
      (1) Convince her that the project is not failing. Are you sure it isn’t failing? She works on it – I’d think she’d have much better perspective than you do after a couple minutes of watercooler chat with Beauregard. He does not have much incentive to reveal to you that a project is flailing.

      (2) Convince her that even if the project fails, she will get something useful professionally out of it. Maybe that’s professional ties with someone more useful than Beauregard. Maybe that’s experience doing X, which is valuable to the company.

      (3) Put her on a project that’s doing better instead of putting her on a lousy project with a crappy manager. If she’s doing superlative work, why stick her with the train to nowhere instead of putting her where she can make a bigger impact and contribute to something successful?

      1. Rocky*

        She doesn’t think it’s failing. She loves working on it and is positive and excited about how it’s going in the moment. I know it’s not failing because I proposed it, got it funded, and track the major goals, which we’re meeting. It’s going just fine. She’s worried that the project *could* fail at some point because she doesn’t trust Beauregard.

        1. Student*

          See, you’re wrong there. You don’t think it’s failing. She thinks it is on the path to failure. She’s not escalating things to you for fun – she’s actually concerned.

          It’s absolutely reasonable for you to have a different opinion of the project – you have better perspective on this than she does for sure. It’s not okay for you to project what you think she should think onto her. That’s the assumption that is causing your communication difficulties here.

          Just set her straight on that point – the project is on the right track. Beauregard’s issues are not a big concern to you. You are happy with her performance. If you say those things and she keeps bringing up gripes about Beauregard, then it’s time to ask her something along the lines of, “Why are you bringing this to me?” or possibly the more soft “What specifically are you asking me to do?” I’ve had to have conversations with underlings that there are certain things they can vent to me about, and certain things they can’t vent to me about. If this is just about not wasting your time on this type of venting, then say so to her directly. It’s normal in some jobs for managers to be venting outlets for your underlings, and it’s also reasonable to set up bounds about that.

    4. MillersSpring*

      If it was me, I’d speak to Beauregard to ask him to address 1-4. His failings are directly affecting your diresmxt report’s ability to do her job, and ppl are trying to come to her rather than properly go to him. I think confronting him–firmly but politely re: 1-4, is definitely part of your role as Francesca’s boss. I wouldn’t characterize it to her as just his personality that everyone has to learn to adjust to if he truly has problematic behaviors.

      2. Rocky*

        Like I said in my original post, I would definitely do that if I saw evidence that 1-4 are directly affecting her ability to do her job and the success of the project. I don’t have that. In fact, everything is going fine – Better than I expected in some respects. I’m totally willing to say, “Beauregard, please don’t interrupt me,” but not, “As your peer, I’m asking you to change your behavior because Francesca thinks you might drop the ball on her project.”

      3. TootsNYC*

        yeah, i think she’s bringing you these things because she wants you to do somethign about it.

        she wants you, at the very least, to go to Beauregard and say, “I need you to stop pushing your team’s work onto my team.”

        And maybe even say, “I’m not happy with the brusque tone you use w/ my direct report; please be more civil to her.”

        i think you can and actually SHOULD do this. He’s your peer, so you can give peer-to-peer feedback.

        i’d be so frustrated. It wouldn’t matter that I wouldn’t be blamed!! I want to work in a functional, energizing setting. It’s not about blame; it’s about working well and with energy.

        1. MillersSpring*

          Exactly this. If you agree with her 1-4, you can go to Beauregard and address how he treats your team, and that ppl are bringing requests to Francesca instead of his team. More than her concerns about whether the project will fail, you have Francesca’s morale at stake and her probably surmising that you’re avoiding confrontation by not speaking to Beauregard. You don’t have to be someone’s manager to confront them and advocate on behalf of your team.

    5. AnotherFed*

      Does Francesca have the background and experience to be able to discriminate between major issues and minor ones? There’s lots of times that one person’s approach to a project or customer relationships is less effective than another way, but still nets an okay but not spectacular result or at least is not a failure. Meh/not-failing results may be fine to others (and even company leadership) if they free up resources for other things or otherwise work towards other priorities. 2-4 on your list of issues with Beauregard would tend to point towards that going on in the background.

      It sounds like you need to sit down with Francesca and make it clear that her priorities are almost never going to be completely aligned with someone else’s. If you and Beauregard both think status quo is mostly acceptable, make sure you tell Francesca that, and make sure she’s only being evaluated on her role/scope in the project. You also most likely need to stop letting her take over your 1:1s with rants about this. Give her tripwires for where she should loop you back in because it means things are getting worse, but other than that, shut it down and save your 1:1 time for more constructive things.

      1. Rocky*

        Wow, this is right on target, in so many ways. Thanks so much. To your first question, I think the answer might well be no, and I need to help her understand the difference. And yes, the 1:1 rants really need to stop.

    6. TootsNYC*

      I think you can go to the folks int he Coffee Pots Division and say, “I see that you guys have been going straight to Francesca instead of Beauregard, which means she gets derailed by rerouting you to him. Please be sure you’re not making her do that.”

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Look at it from her perspective. Beauregard is obnoxious, does not answer emails and is rude to stakeholders. She doesn’t think he can do his job because basically he can’t do his job. In many work places these behaviors are unacceptable.

      Additionally, no one wants to put their all into a job only to have the work lost/trashed because of someone else. Why would you show up for work? It’s a basic human need to make an actual contribution to the effort. Why would she do all that work, collect a paycheck and watch her work go in the waste basket when she could work for a company that actually valued her efforts and used it to grow their company in some manner?

      Yeah, she went on a ten minute rant. Because she probably heard you say, “It’s okay if you worked on X for weeks and your work gets lost because others dropped the ball. Don’t worry about it.”

      I worked with one guy who literally came right through behind me and took my work apart. He was three feet away from me and doing this. But I needed to learn how to get along. We had to recycle paper because “don’t waste paper” but human effort (labor) was perfectly fine to waste. I went through behind him and reset my work. The company did not mind paying me to do the same thing twice. And the company did not mind the lost revenues involved here. I totally hated having my work devalued so much. I gave up on the job.

      I know you can’t fix Beau but you can change your answers to your employee. The answers you are giving her are not resonating with her to the point of not helping her. She does not believe her work is valued by you or the company. Until you can show her that she is not wasting her time and that her work will get used by the company probably this process will continue.

    8. NicoleK*

      You see this as new hire Francesca fretting about one high profile project. While Francesca sees Beau as a major obstacle to her success. She is probably concerned about future raises, opportunities for promotions, external opportunities, and internal and external stakeholder perceptions of her. People generally form an opinion of new hires within 3-6 months and once negative opinions are formed, they’re very difficult to change.

      Several months ago, I was “Francesca”. And that is what my boss failed to see.

  65. Feeling hopeless*

    Anyone have any ideas on how to feel better about job searching when you are super hopeless? I have been trying to leave my employer for 7 years but it feels impossible as I always fail at the interview stage, and the job continues to be awful. I have read countless books (including Alison’s!) on job searching, had interview coaching 3 times and extensive therapy but nothing makes me believe I can actually get a job. Should I try career coaching or has anyone been able to turn around a seemingly hopeless job search? Do beta blockers work to make you less nervous in interview?

    1. Navy Vet*

      It took me 3 years to find a different job last time. And I felt hopeless. It sounds corny…but what worked for me was kind of pumping myself up before the interview…the whole time really. And make a conscious effort to not say mean things to yourself. Be nice to you. If you feel a little like Eyore, you might be presenting that way and it will make it harder for the interviewer to see how qualified you are as a candidate. Believe me, I know how hard it is not to get swallowed up in the misery of a job hunt that is not bearing fruit.

      Even just something simple…If you say it to yourself enough you will start feeling it.

        1. Navy Vet*

          Just try to be careful not to latch on the first offer you get when you do get one. (And I know you will get one!)

          Once I changed my attitude (it wasn’t bad…but it was desperate I’m sure) I started getting more phone interviews, more in person interviews and eventually a job offer to a job I love. (I also lurk here a lot and there is a huge amount of great advice given in both Alison’s entries and the commenters. (Y’all saved my sanity at then end of my job search TBH)

          Here’s my corny mantra…I still use it when I’m grumpy or in a funk.

          “I am one with the universe, the universe is awesome and so am I”

          You can replace “Universe” with whatever term you wish.

    2. NicoleK*

      Fake it until you feel it. Conduct mock interviews and if possible record the mock interviews. Pay attention to how you’re coming across in terms of verbal communication, body language, facial expression, and etc.

  67. Stopping By*

    Anyone have any suggestions, resources advice for 28 year old who doesn’t know what she wants to do in life? My step daughter is drifting and unsure how to move forward. She has the funds available to go to grad school . . . but in what? Thanks in advance.

    1. S0phieChotek*

      Maybe try some volunteering first? It might be good for the resume and give her a sense of what she might want to do? I wouldn’t jump into grad school without a real clear goal and desire–it’s not worth the stress and effort (IMO).

      Or even some of those “What color is your parachute” type of tests–which could then lead to volunteering or local community classes (first) before applying to/investing in a full-time grad program?

    2. Caffeine Free*

      I wouldn’t recommend dropping money on grad school, if you don’t want to go/know what you want to do. You can do plenty in life without a grad degree and use that money for other things (invest, trips, down payment on a home).

      I second the local classes tip.

      1. Stopping By*

        I’ll add that the money is only available for grad school, not for other life support/enjoyment. She won’t go unless it will serve her–but she has to get to that point of knowing whether it will or not.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Another vote for no grad school. Grad school is a great option for those who know what they want to do in life and need extra education/training to get there. It’s a terrible idea for someone who hasn’t figured that out yet.

      Volunteering is a good option, as others have noted, but if she’s looking for employment, I would suggest looking at roles where one can wear many hats. A lot of administrative/coordinator roles are like this and could expose your stepdaughter to a lot of different aspects of work and may help her narrow down what she’s interested in and good at. (Particularly in smaller organizations or non-profits where there are fewer staff who tackle lots of different roles.)

    4. College Career Counselor*

      I work with students who:
      *are multiply interested OR
      *have NO idea what they want to do OR
      *think they can’t do anything

      I often ask them what they care about or think is important as a means of engaging them in something they have an existing interest in. Does she have interests, passions, or an audience/clientele she wants to work with? Are there particular skills that she can identify? What would she do if left to her own devices?

      Generally speaking, you can uncover some interest–then it’s a matter of figuring out the path into that particular field (grad school, volunteering, skills/certification training, related work, etc.). I’m simplifying obviously–doesn’t mean it’s easy or straightforward. But sometimes identifying an interest can break someone out of the status quo of “I dunno what I want to do when I grow up” and galvanize them into exploration.

    5. Sarah Nicole*

      I recently decided to make a career change and it came after waffling for a couple of years because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I started looking at it this way – While I don’t know what I WANT to do, I definitely know what I DON’T want in a career, at least for the next many years. When I did that, I was able to start crossing things off the list. It was easier because I got to think about the things that truly made me miserable in my old jobs. Those things came down to issues that weren’t company-specific. For example, the main one for me was that I decided I did not want to work a job where I sat quietly at my computer every day and worked alone (I was a marketing copywriter before). Boy did that narrow down the list!

      I would imagine this probably takes some time for most people, and I had to go through a few jobs before I figured out what was making me so unmotivated and unhappy. When I did narrow down the list to a few things that I thought I would truly love and could be happy doing all day every day, I researched the hell out of them. Now I can say that after getting a Bachelor’s degree, working in an unrelated career field, and just spending time in the work force, I am happily back in COMMUNITY COLLEGE studying to become a nurse. :) It’s not the most conventional way to go, but it gave me an opportunity to do what I want now and I can afford the schooling, plus it’s in my home town. I second those above that say not to go to grad school if she isn’t sure what she wants yet, but getting more education doesn’t necessarily have to mean a graduate degree. It could mean community classes like someone above said, or even on the job training depending on what she decides to try.

      I realize this may not be helpful to everyone looking to make a change, but it’s what worked for me! I wish her the best of luck and happiness!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Make sure she understands that it is okay to change paths, pick something and go for it.

      Also encourage her to change her thinking. Stop thinking about “wants” and start thinking about “natural abilities”. She needs to start and that is the most important thing. Ask her where she feels she has natural abilities. Pick something that will utilize a few of those abilities. The idea being she should pick something she feels she will have some success at. Do not pick things where she knows she is a fish out of water. If she picks something that follows her abilities she will get employed and stay employed. The whole while she is doing this she can be looking around for what else she might like to try in life.

      One thing I wish people had told me is, “Quit taking it all so seriously. There is nothing that is carved in stone. Every bad choice CAN be fixed. So make a move that seems logical. Start there. As you go along it will become more apparent to you where to go next.”

    7. Lothier*

      It might help her to register with a few employment agencies and do some temp work? This way she can try on different hats and narrow things down? It gives her a chance to see the inside of different businesses, meet people she may never have otherwise. Kind of like trying on clothes till you find something that “fits” and you like!

  68. Alternative*

    Anyone else have parents who cannot seem to understand or remember what you do for work? Last week my dad asked me “so, what do you do for work?” He forgot. Again. I’ve been working in accounting/finance for over 16 years.

    2. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      Not a parent but I work a side job and my boss there has known me and my family personally over 20 years. She remembers that I started undergrad as an education major… which only lasted one term. So whenever she’s introducing me to someone she always asks what grade I’m teaching. And I’m not.

    3. Ad Astra*

      I’ve been an editor for pretty much my entire career. My mom is convinced that I’m a writer.

    4. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      Yep. At OldJob it made sense, what they did was hard to describe. At this job though? I work for an insurance company. It’s not complicated. With him it’s not memory, he just doesn’t care enough to remember. I don’t work for an impressive tech giant like my brother does.

      1. KR*

        My grandfather is like this. I’m pretty sure he asks where I’m living now and if I have a roommate every time he sees me (probably every week or so). He’s just asking to be polite, it goes in one ear and out the other, and he’ll ask every week to be polite. What a jerk.

        1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

          Your grandfather =/= my dad. He’s not asking to be polite.

            1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

              He says he doesn’t remember. After nearly 40 years, I know how my dad is. If it were important to him, he’d remember.

              1. College Career Counselor*

                Honestly, I’d stop answering. Perhaps not having you constantly “refresh” his memory will make him decide to remember your profession.

                1. Sadsack*

                  Yeah, next time your response should be, “Dad, how many times do I have to tell you I am a rodeo clown?”

                2. Alice Ulf*

                  Thank you Sadsack–I now know through personal experience how it feels to accidentally snort one’s afternoon coffee up one’s nose.

                  XD

      2. Not So NewReader*

        You can’t make your dad care. I am so sorry.

        I like the idea of giving him a ridiculous answer. I also like the idea of giving him a different answer every time he asks.

        Or you could say, “Same thing as the last time you asked, Dad.” And let it go.

        Or you could say what the issue is and not beat around the bush. “Dad, you can’t be bothered to remember what I do for a living. I am tired of answering that question and I will not be answering it any more.” Done. Over.

        This sucks. I am really sorry.

    5. Kelly L.*

      I had an aunt (now divorced from my uncle) who, my theory was, could retain one piece of information about a person, and she’d ask them about it every time, no matter what had happened in between or how long it had been. I’m about 60% sure that if she saw me today, she’d ask me how the junior high band was going. I’m 38.

      My guess is that he either has a weird quirk like that, or that he doesn’t understand the actual job itself–like maybe he knows the name of the field, but not what people do when they’re working in that field.

    6. HRish Dude*

      Every time I see my grandmother, she asks, “What exactly is it you do…something with computers, right?”

      I’ve been doing the same thing for 10 years. She’s not senile.

      1. Windchime*

        My mom knows I do something with computers but that’s really all she knows. I’ve been doing programming for years and for the last 4 years, data warehousing but I don’t know how to explain data warehousing to someone who doesn’t have a computer or an even an email account.

    7. AnotherFed*

      My grandmother thinks I build fire suppression systems… I had one internship doing fire alarm placement on drawings as one of the many scut work tasks, but that’s as close as anything has come. I’ve given up trying to explain what I actually do and just roll with whatever people assume at this point.

      1. hermit crab*

        I’m pretty sure my in-laws STILL think I count lightbulbs for a living, based on a short project I did seven years ago!

    8. Laura*

      My grandparents are like that. My grandma has some memory issues so she gets a pass, but I think my grandpa thinks my job is a “fun” kind of job. He thinks that at 22, I wouldn’t be mature enough to work 8-5, have a good salary, excellent benefits, etc. I try not to talk to them very often, though that may not be an option for you.

    9. Lore*

      I’ve worked on the production side of publishing for more than 15 years. My parents (and my SO of seven years) still cannot grasp the difference between what I do as a production editor (the mechanics of getting books made, like copy editing and proofreading and formatting for interior design), what agents do (develop work with authors and represent that work to publishers), and what acquisitions editors do (buy books from agents and work with authors to refine that work). Nor can any of them process the fact that there is zero chance I can get “promoted” to be an acquisitions editor (any more than I could get promoted to be an app developer or an accountant) because it’s a completely different role despite both having “editor” in the title, and every time I try to explain it, they parse it as “you don’t want to advance in your career.” It drives me freaking nuts.

    10. mander*

      My parents still think that I want to do one of: run the British Museum, excavate the pyramids of Egypt, discover lost Inca temples, or go back to academia and become a professor. Granted, when I was younger I wanted to work in museums and I was briefly obsessed with ancient Egypt, but I now know that the British Museum pays really badly, working in Egypt is horribly expensive (not to mention a bit dangerous right now), and I realized some years ago that I am not cut out for academia.

      Mom still gets this sad voice and laments how it’s too bad I can’t seem to get hired at the museum. My pay is pretty terrible at the moment but it’s more than I would have made in the last job I applied for there, plus I don’t have to deal with the public.

  69. Abigael*

    I know AAM has followers from various countries, so maybe some of you can help me with this question:

    I’m American and have a BA in Linguistics and Spanish (minors in Portuguese and Mandarin) and am working on my Master’s in Global Affairs. It’s always been my dream to live and work abroad. I taught ESL in Mexico after graduation and I did enjoy it, but I’m not sure it’s the right long-term career for me. Now I’m working with international students and study-abroad programs at an American university. I travel internationally for short-term business trips, but I’m finding I’d really like to LIVE abroad again. What options are out there for me, other than teaching ESL? How can I find international employers who will hire an American and sponsor me for a work visa (if necessary)? I am fluent in Spanish, so options in Spanish-speaking countries would be ideal.

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      Have you considered the State Department? A good friend of mine made a mid-career hop (she is fluent in four languages) to diplomatic life and she LOVES it.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      What about interpretation? I know, through various complicated family links, someone who speaks several Eastern European languages which she’s used in things like legal issues with non English speakers/immigration/refugees. Or perhaps a charity/non profit might be able to make use of your language skills?

    4. Suggestion*

      If you’re open to more teaching as a career and are flexible about where you go, check out K-12 American/international schools abroad. They exist in many many countries and as they are private I think some would be willing to hire someone with a masters degree in lieu of a teaching certificate (particularly for something like high school social studies/government). There are also support staff positions. Most are pretty good about visa sponsorship. The hiring strikes me as bizarre (day long hiring fairs, everyone ends the day having committed to a job?!) but I have friends who’ve done it (both as teachers and as staff/administrators) and they’ve had good experiences.

      There are also American universities abroad (branch campuses of US-based brick-and-mortar places, think NYU Abu Dhabi — and also standalone institutions like American University of Paris). There are less of these and visas are tough for staff at the European ones…but if you’re open to Asia or the Middle East, the visa thing is easier.

    5. Laura*

      I have a coworker who is a recruiter for our university’s global management program. Much of his job requires traveling overseas for recruitment purposes. You might like something like that!

    6. Silver*

      If there are multinational companies with a base in the US doing a thing that you would like to do maybe try working there for a little while then getting a transfer to an OS base?

      I work for a company with headquarters in several regions globally, my office is in Australia but I have colleague in China, Hong Kong, Japan, England, Canada and the US amongst other. There are sometimes opportunities for talented staff to work in other regions if their skills are needed and they want to make the move. I’ve had upper management come from the UK and the US office for example. This may of course take a little longer than you’re letter suggest you’d like though :)

    7. Cambridge Comma*

      UN system. You have 3 of the 6 working languages plus a background in global affairs.

  70. Navy Vet*

    I think it was a couple of weeks ago someone posted the article about “Straddlers”. First off, thanks for posting that! I have a super hard time navigating the white collar social cues and I have always felt out of step with my colleagues politically. (As in I have no idea how to do it). I come from a working poor/blue collar background and spent my first 11 years as a working adult in the military. Jut the military to civilian culture transition can be tricky.

    So, can y’all translate this for me? Is it a gentle “mandatory” item to be involved in, or can I just ignore the e-mail? Just as an FYI, I’m outsourced labor, so only a handful of the people in the local office would know who I was on sight…

    “Attached is your invitation to 2016 Spring 5K Rad Rave, to be held on Saturday, June 4th. Please open and review the invitation attached above, and respond to Cordelia at the email address so noted if you are planning to participate (which is encouraged from a social, professional and healthful standpoint).”

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “Healthful” — ugh.

      You probably can’t really tell without knowing more about your workplace and your manager, unfortunately. But it’s pretty easy to get out of this kind of weekend thing with “oh, too bad, I’ve got unbreakable family plans that day.”

      1. Analyst*

        That would be my personal approach too, actually. Not that I don’t like running, but I don’t want to be sweaty with my coworkers, judged for being the slow tortoise that I am, etc. Not for me.

    2. Analyst*

      What you have here is a passive-aggressive gray area between volunteer and voluntold. I’d interpret it that they’re not forcing anyone to do this so you have to opt in to the race, and you will either be seen as an awesome team player/employee if you do, or someone who isn’t invested in the company and her career if you don’t.

      “which is encouraged from a social, professional and healthful standpoint” is the passive-aggressive part, btw, and I have no patience for that nonsense. But it’s on you to weigh how much it means to you to be seen as a team player at this company and what the repercussions are if you don’t.

    3. Charlotte Collins*

      I think you can safely ignore this. Unless you have a burning desire to go to the Rad Rave.

      1. Navy Vet*

        Not even a little bit…the flyer looks like the finish line has one of those pain clouds….

        I know loads of people love those, but they are not for me. (Much like a tough mudder is not for me lol)

        I feel like getting sweaty while running is enough grime for me to wash off thank you very much.

        1. Navy Vet*

          Paint clouds,….not pain clouds…although I haven’t started running yet this season…so there would be pain.

    4. Kate*

      Well, until I got to the last line I was going with “totally optional.” How important is socializing/networking in your office, in terms of advancement and/or other opportunities? If face time is important, I would probably participate, unless I had a reason (physical or otherwise) to decline.
      Is there someone you can ask? This is one of those things that is ambiguous enough that asking someone in your workplace is probably your best bet.

    5. Clever Name*

      I’m pretty involved in my company’s social events, and I’d skip this. You can safely ignore the email. Unless you really want to do it.

  71. such anon, very mous*

    Male coworkers, I do not care what you think of my new hair. It does not effect my ability to do my job, does not violate any dress codes, and it’s none of your business how my significant other likes it.

    (and in the interest of equality, I don’t care what my female coworkers think either… presumably they know this because they aren’t the ones trying to use it as a conversation starter!)

    1. KR*

      I don’t straighten my hair anymore when I have to work because it’s all people talk about when they see me…. :/ I straighten it for me because I like to look nice but can we talk about work now?

    2. Navy Vet*

      +10000000000

      While I was working on a project a cople months ago one of the operators looked me right in the face and said, “You know, you’re really beautiful”.

      1. I’m also super good at my job…why don’t we talk about that instead
      2. I know. (My mom tells me all the time ;D) Can we talk about the project now?

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      Not invalidating your feelings on the matter–you are welcome to dislike those comments. In some contexts, they would drive me nuts as well.

      For me, though, whether those comments upset me depends on timing and target.

      On timing, if I’m trying to conduct business, talk to you about something important, or otherwise in professional working mode, no. Do not talk about my hair. WTF even. In the hallways, break room, other approved small talk situation? Yeah, totally. I’m vain. I’ll tell you all about my awesome asymmetrical bob.

      On target, comments on my choices are okay. “Cute outfit”? “Thanks!” “Nice hair”? “I know, right!” “Lunch smells awesome”? “I’ll get you the recipe!” But comments on me (for want of better phrasing) are unwelcome. “You’re really pretty”? “…” “Gosh, you’re skinny”? “…” “Nice smile”? “Stop talking.”

      Again, those are just my personal standards. Exceptions may apply.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        Also, WTF to the folks asking about your SO’s opinion? There’s not a single situation where I’d welcome a question like that.

      2. such anon, very mous*

        Yeah… “Did you get a haircut? It looks nice!” Isn’t what’s happening here. What’s happening is that I’m learning way too much about the physical preferences of male coworkers who seem to think I care that they think I look good even though I’m not their ideal woman.

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          Oof, that’s not okay. That is very different than what I understood at first. I’m sorry you’re dealing with it. Do you have enough capital to tell them to knock it off?

        2. afiendishthingy*

          ew yeah I don’t know why some men feel the need to tell you how attracted they are to women with long hair. Sorry buddy, it turns out many of us care more about how long it takes to dry and what WE like than about your sexual preferences.

    4. also anonmouse for this*

      What IS it with some male coworkers and women’s hair? I have a friend (who is in fact agender, but not out at work), and they buzz and dye their hair in all sorts of interesting colors and shapes. A few of their male coworkers can’t stop harping on how, “I think women don’t look good with short hair,” (who cares), “What does your boyfriend think?” (why do you care), “You’re not going to cut it again, are you?” (they absolutely will), and my all time favorite, “Men like women who have natural hair colors, you know.”

      It’s just…. WHO CARES???

      It is absolutely baffling to me.

      1. Hey Anonny Nonny*

        That last one… yea, I’ve heard that kind of thing. About tattoos, length of hair, color of hair, style of shirt, wearing flat shoes, you name it.

        “You know, in case it matters, there are men out there who prefer women (who make the exact specific aesthetic choices I myself am attracted to, because my opinion about you is more important than yours, obviously).”

        This means what to me? And holy cow, can we unpack the multiple levels of increasing grossness being foisted upon someone who DID NOT ASK, DOES NOT CARE, and CANNOT BELIEVE you’d actually say something like that out loud?

      2. Turtle Candle*

        Oh god, yes. “Men don’t like short hair” (why do I care?) “Men don’t like unnatural hair colors” (WHY DO I CARE?) “Men don’t like extreme haircuts” (WHY DO I CAAAAAARE?). Men at work! We are not here to be decorative for you!

        Ironically, I have also noticed that it takes about 3.5 seconds for it to transition from “Men don’t like short hair” to “Long hair on older women is aging and desperate-looking, you know.”

        I DON’T CAAAAAAAAAAAARE. As long as I am tidy and professional, I do not give a good goddamn how sexually attractive you find my style. I do not go around all day announcing uninvited that women don’t like polo shirts with pit stains, do I?

    5. Anon - I'm Known Only for my Locks, not my Labor*

      Did you write this for me? I have the same issue. The customer boss always compliments my hair in front of his all male team leads. (I’m a contractor.) Never a compliment for my work, even though I was the first person on this project to receive a formal recognition from the senior military program manager. [I’ve gotten several.]

      This week, after another grueling day of meetings with the senior program manager, he informed me that he just loves my hair and I shouldn’t ever change the style. Not a word about the massive amount of work I did to pull together the presentation and verify its content.

    6. Jules the First*

      This definitely calls for either the innocent-confusion pause (inner eyebrows down, eyes wide, neutral mouth, let the silence stretch before going briskly on with the agenda) or the random non-sequiter:
      Wakeen: “I love your sexy haircut!”
      Me: “Yeah, I love sushi too.”
      Fergus: “Long hair is so erotic when you wear it down…”
      Me: “Badgers actually navigate by scent.”

    7. Clever Name*

      My mom has a great scorcher for this one:

      I’m sorry. You’ve mistaken me for someone who cares about your opinion.

  72. JazzyIsAnonymous*

    So great news– I got a new job offer with a 10K raise! No longer at a small business either, I’ll have full benefits! However, on my way I learned a lot of things about myself that I didn’t realize.

    I never thought I was great or anything. I thought I basically got stuff done, but I wasn’t anything special. I seriously doubted a lot of my abilities and figured that nobody thought much of me. Once I gave my notice, though, I realized that this was not at all the case.

    My boss immediately made a huge counteroffer, which shocked me. I wasn’t interested, but I found out he was really hurting from my departure. All of my coworkers started telling me how much they would miss me, how I’d done a fantastic job. Even one of the top dogs from the corporate office called me to tell me how sad they were to miss me, because I was just wonderful.

    I’m kind of a loss here. I am floored that people have such great experiences with me. I just don’t know how to convince myself that they’re telling the truth. I think it’s a self esteem problem I guess… I guess I just feel like they’re lying or they don’t realize that I’m not really that great? I don’t know how to fix feeling like this.

    1. Caffeine Free*

      Take the praise and move on with the new position and great new offer! Often people don’t know what they’ve got ’til it’s gone. Congrats!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Why is it that we assume when people say nothing it is because they think poorly of us? We never assume they think we are great.

      I think this is a lesson in how we never truly know what others think.

  73. Q to Youse*

    How to make “everything” a priority? How to make it all work!

    My SO just moved 10+ hours away for a new (good/great job and was looking for a LONG time). The only problem is that there are no job prospects for me there (City –> Town) … For now I’ve decided to keep my current position and (hold your breath!) live with my family so we don’t waste money on two rents.

    The initial plan is that my SO will spend about two years there and look for something else. And potentially I will go up there, but honestly I don’t know if it’s worth it career wise. Relationship-wise? Probably.

    Anyone have experience with this? How about experience transitioning to full time remote positions?

  74. Anonsie*

    I’m working as an academic librarian in a 1-year-long position. I just passed the halfway point this month, so I’m starting my job search in earnest. I’m still unsure how to best put on my resume that my current job is temporary, set to go no longer than a year, but that my bosses have made it clear that I’m welcome to leave before serving out the entire year. (I don’t want employers seeing “1 year contract” or whatever and thinking I won’t be available until October.) Can anyone recommend the best way to frame something like this? I’ve never had to put temporary work on a resume before.

    1. Rocky*

      If the jobs you’re applying for are also in academia, I don’t think it’s much of an issue since you’re at the 6-month mark in your current job, and recruiting cycles usually take a few months anyway. On your resume you can just put something like “(term position)” next to your current job title. You could mention in your cover letter that your position is “up to a one-year term” but you’d be available as early as Month, Year.

    2. Another Academic Librarian*

      Don’t be afraid of using the word “temporary”! It is fairly common for people to list similar positions on their resume like this:

      Reference Librarian (temporary), Big University, 2015-present

      Any search committee will understand that you are looking for permanent work! Then they might ask you in an interview or phone screen when you are able to start. Most academic positions have an expected start date, anyway– and, because of the fiscal year, positions posted now will most likely have a start date of no earlier than July 1.

  75. Master Bean Counter*

    My company did a very cool thing last night. We had a big board meeting that rolled over into dinner. I got to see all the exciting new varieties of teapots they are thing of developing, so that was very cool. And how they company will be committed to keeping up good teapot practices and promoting a good teapot lifestyle. All qualities I like. Then over dinner they announced that they are going to give a scholarship to every employees child that graduates high school and goes to college. $500 to help pay expenses for the first year. All funded by current charitable fundraising events and by donations from the board members. They are looking into setting it up so employees can donate as well through payroll deduction.

    In case I haven’t said it enough, I love my new job and working for people who care.

  76. Rat Racer*

    When oh when am I going to learn this lesson: never ever never send an email when angry. My boss’s admin assistant always, without fail, finds a reason to reject my expense reports. Once over a discrepancy of <$1. This last time, it was because I didn't have time to fill up a rental car with gas after driving for 8 hours (round trip) for a 1 hour meeting. I had to grab my kid from daycare before they closed and I didn't have enough time. Car was given to me with 1/2 a tank and I returned it with 1/4 of a tank, so we are quibbling over – what – $5? It's so stupid.

    It's not like a wrote a tirade, but I did say "Honestly, this kind of thing makes me so angry. I can't turn back time and refill the car with gas, so what am I supposed to do?"

    She forwarded my expense report – and my email – to my boss, after responding to tell me that my anger was misplaced and that she didn't appreciate my tone.

    This situation is totally ridiculous, but I really, really should know better than to express anger in an email. Now not only is the Admin Assistant pissed at me, but I probably look like a hot-headed a-hole to my boss. Great. Just great.

    1. WIncredulous*

      But, what did the boss say!? This seems so misplaced on the admins part. I am an admin and really, this would be so not right.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Boss has not said anything. She’s a senior VP at a fortune 50 company and is now being asked to approve my expense report because I threw a tantrum. We have a really great rapport, and I know she feels the pain/frustration with our clunky corporate policies – but any time her attention is dragged away from her priorities to deal with inter-personal issues, it is a bad, bad thing.

      1. Rat Racer*

        We should set up an empty mailbox where people can send all the email they wish they could send, but know better!

    3. Amy S*

      I’m an admin as well, and while I understand that a few bucks doesn’t look like a big deal, any discrepancy has to be corrected in order to insure accurate bookkeeping. I wish this weren’t so but our accountant would give me endless grief if I let anything slide, no matter how big or small. With that being said, if I get an expense report which is off by a small amount, I’ll just correct it myself. If the correction shorts the staff member, I will let him or her know so they aren’t blind-sided by a smaller check. Usually these corrections are very minimal, sometimes by only a few cents. It doesn’t take much effort for me to adjust this kind of math. If an expense report was majorly off or didn’t make sense, I would likely send it back to the employee to fix the errors on their own.

      I feel you though, and I’m sure you’re not really a hot-headed a-hole. Have you apologized to the admin and your boss? A very brief “I’m sorry, I was out of line and didn’t mean to respond in that way” would suffice. That’s really all you can do in this situation, aside from reminding yourself to think through your words before you hit send in the future!

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yep. If I don’t fix those errors on my end, I’m going to get the angry phone call from Accounts Payable. That said, I’ll usually just ask. “Hey, it says X here but it says Y over here, just checking because I want to make sure you get the right amount of money.”

      2. Rat Racer*

        I did apologize – I clarified that my frustration is with our corporate processes and policies – not directed at her personally. I said that I was sorry that my tone implied any anger toward her, acknowledging that I know she’s just the messenger. But I think she had already forwarded the first email to my boss, and she didn’t copy me on it, so I don’t know what she said. Boss has yet to approve expense report – she’s a senior VP and this is probably the LAST thing she wants to deal with.

        1. Nico m*

          I think the admin is a whiny crybaby and should get 97% of the blame for wasting the VPS time.

          1. Amy S*

            I do wonder why the admin went straight to your boss without talking to you first. Since your VP is such a busy person, it would make sense to try to work this out privately (or at least try to) before going to her.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        We have a dot your i’s and cross your t’s world.

        While I agree with you OP, I also know first hand that auditors are humorless people who will shoot someone for losing $1.

        Try, try, try to look beyond the person who is speaking to you and see an army of people who are drooling at the thought of finding one penny that is unaccounted for. This army of people are paid to find mistakes. If they do not find mistakes they have not justified their paychecks. We all have to eat and pay rent/mortgage.

  77. pumpkin scone*

    Best/worst group project at work stories requested!

    I teach a college-level course about effective group work. Our textbook discusses how being able to work in a team is a necessary skill for many workplaces. Not infrequently, a student will say, “But when you’re in the real world and getting paid, everyone knows they have to work together. I can’t believe there will be problems with teamwork when I get a job.”

    I have my own best/worst stories from academia but most of the students aren’t going that route. I would love some other “real world” examples of when a group project excelled and when it crashed and burned. If you can identify your general field, that would be helpful too!

    1. Groupie*

      We had a group working on a new informational brochure, and one member took it upon herself to re-do all the graphics, overwriting the work of others.

      We have a member of a group who will complain up the chain rather than negotiate decisions within the group.

      We have a staff member who will sometimes use non-company software to produce her part of a presentation (has been asked not to) in order to maintain control, since no one else can edit it.

      We have a staff member who will make tiny edits to other people’s work, the send it out saying she has completed the item.

      We have a staff member who takes offense at feedback, so the rest of the team tends to let her have her own way.

      All those examples are, of course, the same person. She is a work in progress for the managemention team.

    2. JazzyIsAnonymous*

      I’ve found that group projects in college and in life have all gone the same general way. All of the work is done by me. I get promises to help that are not followed through, and I do it all myself.

      Like our latest project, which involves calling hundreds of customers to request a particular piece of information that needs to be updated. We said we’d split up the 600 person list between us and each would call X number of people.

      In practice, we started getting close the deadline so I had to contact 600 people really quickly….

      Every single group project I ever did in college went the same way.

    3. Lois*

      Nonprofit field. We had a painful “teamwork” experience where an employee left, and her supervisor didn’t know what her job entailed. She’d been around for years, as the housekeeper. There were tons of “team meetings” pulling people from every department (accounting, fundraising, client services, facilities) in the organization together to figure it out. Pretty much everyone (including the former employee’s supervisor) believed it was someone else’s problem. Eventually the people with more clout got the issue pushed down onto a lower level staff member’s plate, to “research all this stuff” and “figure it out”. Nobody took any responsibility.

      In the end, they all went around patting themselves on the back for “working together to get through this” on something that should never have been a team project to begin with.

    4. Spunky Brewster*

      This happened years ago, but it sticks in my mind. I worked in the Internal Audit department of a Fortune 500 company.

      Our “team-building” exercise was to cut pictures out of magazines my boss brought in from home to depict our ideal department. The magazines we could use included Continental Airlines in-flight magazine, Internal Auditor, and Better Homes and Gardens.

    5. Laura*

      I graduated from college a year ago. My senior year, I took an accounting course for my business minor and was paired up with three guys (I’m a girl) for a huge group project and presentaiton. Two of them were football players and they were GREAT, really hardworking and always communicating with the group about plans. One of them even showed up to a meeting under the effects of Vicodin after a football injury! That’s how dedicated he was.

      The other guy was awful. Never showed up, didn’t believe in what we were doing, and said he would do his part of the project “on the beach at my fraternity formal.” He arrived late for our presentation and bombed his part. The rest of us gave him hell in evaluations, and he received a lower grade in the course because of our input… thank goodness!

    6. Undine*

      Teamwork is much bigger than a single project. I’m a technical writer and over the past twenty years, I’ve seen a real evolution in the definition of “team” and how we work together.

      Back when I was a young tech writer, walking to work through ten feet of snow, uphill both ways, tech writers were usually in their own little world. We would get schedules from some central power and wait around in the dark until either the software was almost working or some engineer handed us a rough draft in some form. We talked to the programmers some and to other functions not at all. We had little or no voice into what was happening n the product, although if it was a product with a user interface, we did find a lot of bugs at the last minute and could run around trying to get someone to listen to us that this way of doing things was a really bad idea. My team was the other tech writers, with occasional access to a couple engineers I could approach as if they were the Great and Powerful Oz.

      Where I work now, my team is more more diverse. I work much less with my fellow tech writers and much more with the programmers, quality assurance, and product support. I also have conversations with product management, sales engineers, and professional services. Writers have access to the same bug database as the engineers and we can file bugs (and they can file bugs on us). We review the release schedule with the progress on the individual code projects. We attend regular spec meetings and we have a process where any new language that is added to the UI goes through a review from the writers. This is very much a two-way street. The more I know about a project in advance, the more chance I have to head problems off at the pass. A common example is a case where I’ve said, “this feature is going to be a nightmare to upgrade — how can we mitigate that?” In one such instance, we actually put out the release without that feature and then made a second release immediately after for people who wanted that specific feature as well. And in return I hear a lot more about mistakes in the documentation, suggestions from support, etc. Everyone’s more proactive and cooperative.

      The net result of all of this is smoother releases. My job is a lot saner — of course there’s always some last minute work, but it’s much less than with the old model. I don’t think just about how I can get my documentation out — I think about how I can contribute to our product as a whole, and how documentation fits into the big picture.

      On the other had, we have some programmers who don’t remember to keep us (or other programmers) in the loop. And then the project is a little buggier, the final documentation is sketchier, and the last couple of weeks before the release are a lot more frenetic.

  78. S0phieChotek*

    Constant Contact Users Here?

    I’m supposed to use CC to create marketing/newsletters for our customers.

    I keep getting reminders to use a more “mobile friendly” template…apparently the first template we were using was considered not optimal for mobile devices. (I looked at the newsletter on an iPad and it seemed fine.) [Original template was a 1-column version, with text and some images].

    So I used a template marked “mobile friendly” and recreated the exact same e-mail (from my last newsletter) except in the new “mobile-friendly” template.

    Then I sent the original (supposedly not mobile friendly) version and the new (mobile-friendly) version to myself and looked on them on a laptop, iPad, and iPhone.

    Honestly, they both looked about the same. The only thing I might change would be the font size (make it bigger) but that applied to the original non-mobile friendly version I had.

    So now I am confused. There seems to be no improvement. I was expecting improvement..of some kind.

    Both seemed fine.

    I mean to me the iPhone is just too small to deal with emails (unless it’s an emergency or maybe a quick trip and one does not want carry a laptop or even a tablet) but that’s just me. I know 50% or more check their emails on mobile device (so CC tells me).

    Any tips to ensure format is CC is mobile-friendly? What to do/not to do?

    1. Amy S*

      It’s possible the non mobile-friendly version may affect Android users (or some other type of mobile device), not iPhone users. I don’t think the mobile-friendly newsletter offers any kind of aesthetic improvement, it just insures the newsletter itself will appear as intended for any mobile device users.

      I would just continue to use the recommended mobile-friendly template. If your newsletter looks messed up to your customers, chances are someone – at least one person – will send you a snarky email letting you know. ;)

    2. Wheezy Weasel*

      The Chrome web browser has a feature called ‘Developer Tools’ where you can emulate various types of phones and tablets within the browser to see what it will look like before committing any changes to the template. Also, if there is feedback for being more mobile-friendly, you might ask for some more detailed descriptions: is the email not displaying entirely? Do you need to pinch and zoom too much? What device are you using?

      1. S0phieChotek*

        Thanks both for suggestions. Didn’t know that about Chrome so that is good to know! I’ll definitely try it.

        I’ve had not received feedback from actual customers/potential customers asking for mobile-friendly — it’s the CC SaaS itself telling me this. When I first would log on and go grab the Template to modify for a new newsletter and pop-up would remind me “this is not mobile-friendly; switch to a mobile-friendly template”–which, as I described above, I did. But didn’t really see any improvements.

  79. Jessica*

    Does anyone here work in Radiologic Technology or a related field? I graduate from my program in just over 3 months and will be taking my Boards exam sometime in late July/early August most likely. Do you have any tips on how to format a resume specific to radiology tech, especially showcasing all the different equipment I’ve used? I also trained in the fileroom at my hospital to cover for the full time employee there and learned how to push images, create CDS, track everything, etc and I’m not entirely sure how to format that as well. I’ve created general resumes in the past but nothing like this before. Thanks for any suggestions!

    1. HRish Dude*

      If you’re going to be applying to a hospital via an HR department, this is pretty much the perfect use of the skills section. When we’ve hired for Rad Techs and they’ve asked for specific skills, sections like these are a blessing to the HR people who don’t necessarily know what all of those things are.

  80. JennyFair*

    Update to the previous story of an employee storing all his stuff in a little-used office (without asking, while building a new house): He moved everything out in time for us to move everything that wasn’t his out :)

    Unfortunately, my own office is also probably getting shut down as well :(

  81. HigherEd Frustration*

    i just wanted to let everyone know i FINALLY got a job in HigherEd! After a year and a half of constant searching, over 100 applications and 20-some-odd interviews, and a week after i was laid off from ToxicJob, I was given a fantastic job offer in research administration with amazing benefits and a 8k salary increase than i was expecting and oh yeah, first salaried job! YAYYY. to everyone still looking, it WILL happen if you keep trying!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      YAY! Congrats :) I just left an amazing job in higher ed and I miss it so much. One day I’ll go back!

  82. LCL*

    Work kitchen vent
    Someone is cooking a frozen pizza in the conventional oven, using the pizza box as a tray. It is very smoky. I am keeping an eye on it, and will be saying something to him.
    I swear I won’t be starting any gender wars over this, my better nature will guide me. But if the fire dept gets called I will say something to the offender about the waste of public resources…

    2. Betty (the other Betty)*

      I would assume he just doesn’t know better, and give him some help. “Hey, you might not realize this but the pizza box can’t go in the oven: it could catch on fire! I notice that it is smoking already, so I’m pulling it out (or, so please pull it out now). ”

      Then explain the alternative: “I usually cook frozen pizza directly on the rack (or: here is a cookie tray you can use).”

      (I’m imaging my teenager in few years: I think I’ve taught him everything he needs to know, but I’m sure I’ve missed something like the difference between cooking frozen pizza in the microwave and the oven. It would be nice to think that his future coworkers could help him out with learning that sort of thing instead of seeing impending disaster and waiting to admonish him.)

      1. Betty (the other Betty)*

        And… I don’t think gender has anything to do with it. Someone needs help to not start a fire; male or female has nothing to do with it.

        1. LCL*

          And he did it again! I did talk to him, sucker that I am I told him I would bring in a pizza pan on Monday. He is about my age.

  83. Anon obviously*

    Does anyone here know whether if I fail a pre-employment drug screening at company A, would that information be passed to its child company C that it had with company B (or to company B for that matter)? I stopped using illicit substances several months ago, but my wife smokes cannabis in the house every day, so I am a little worried about secondhand contamination.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      From what I’ve read, it’s very unlikely that secondhand smoke would give you the level of metabolites in your urine necessary to fail the test.

      1. Anon obviously*

        Allison, I thought so too but they called me back in to retake the screen so I’m feeling a little paranoid ;-)

    2. Bob*

      It depends on the company but my company has a bunch of child companies and you would actually be working for us, not them, even if they advertised the job and interviewed you. It would def. come up with us that you failed a drug test.

      1. Anon obviously*

        Ok that is good to know, thanks Bob! I’m just running worst case scenarios in my head because it makes me feel better.

  84. ACA*

    I started off the week with a professor screaming at me via email about something that I have zero control over – it literally had to go to the Provost to get resolved, which should indicate how vastly above my paygrade the issue was. (Can’t go into much detail without potentially doxxing myself, but let’s just say that despite needing Provostial input it was not the kind of situation that merited the seven-paragraph screed he sent me.) And of course, I was the one who had to email the professor to let him know the issue had been resolved in his favor, to which he sent a cheery “Thanks!”. Ugh.

    On the bright side, that same professor’s student sent me a really nice email yesterday to thank me for all the help I’d given him as he works towards graduation. So that was nice.

  85. LNM*

    Last month I applied, interviewed, and accepted a lateral transfer within my company for a Manager II position. During the interview phase the hiring manager and I talked a lot about some of my strengths matching up with some of their weaknesses outside of the job description that was posted.

    The afternoon of the day before I started this new role, my new manager called to inform me that I would no longer be an exempt employee. Two weeks in she shared an org chart with the team, and my role is listed as Analyst III. I would not have applied for a non-exempt analyst role, much less have accepted it- and I didn’t! The role officially offered to me by HR was the original Manager II that was posted.

    I am concerned about the lack of communication from my manager about the title change and employment status, I am upset at what feels like a demotion, and I am worried that moving from a salaried position to an hourly position will reflect poorly on me when I job search in the future.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I went from exempt to non-exempt, and let me tell you…. I love it. The overtime pay is sweet. It’s annoying to have to fill out a timecard every week but it’s worth it for the overtime pay.

      As for hurting future job prospects, I’m not sure how a new employer would know about your non-exempt status, or even why they would care. Different companies classify roles differently, it doesn’t reflect a demotion or anything of that nature, it just reflects a different classification.

    2. Ann Cognito*

      That stinks! With regard to the non-exempt part, are Manager IIs non-exempt in org, or do you think that was the manager’s way of giving you half the news, but not going all the way and telling you there was a title change too? For me, the title change is a big, big deal and not acceptable! Can you go to your manager and say “I just noticed on the org chart that my title is down as Analyst III. When we spoke the day before I started in the role, you told me I would be non-exempt, but you didn’t mention a title change. I’m just wondering what’s going on, since the job I interviewed for was a Manager II, and that’s what I received from HR [was that in an offer letter?]. I’m assuming there’s some kind of mistake – I wouldn’t have applied for an Analyst position – so I’m wondering what we can do to get this fixed, or should I just go right to HR?” Then see what she says, and definitely follow-up with HR!

      1. Ann Cognito*

        Oh, and if it ends-up that you are non-exempt, that’s never asked in an interview, so I don’t think you need to worry about that.

        If your manager/HR refuses to recognize your Manager II title, I would immediately start looking for a new position, since that’s a terrible bait and switch to have pulled.

  86. Amy S*

    I’m really concerned about the revised overtime laws coming into effect this September. I’m an administrator for a small business and have a decent amount of flexibility with my job. I love not having to clock in/out, I often do not take a lunch, and it’s no problem if I need to leave early, go to a doctor’s appointment, etc. We also have every other Friday off in the winter and spring due to how busy we are in the summer and fall. When I am at my busiest, I will occasionally put in 60+ hours in one week, although this doesn’t happen for long periods of time.

    My annual review is coming up soon and I’m wondering how I can approach this topic with my manager. It’s possible he might bring it up, but in the event he does not, any tips on how to lead the conversation? I may be due for a raise but I seriously doubt it will be in the range that would allow me to keep this level of flexibility. I’m worried I’m going to become an hourly employee and that I will have to start tracking hours, taking lunches, and that I will no longer get Fridays off in the winter and spring.

    Is it okay to simply say “I’m aware of the new overtime laws and am wondering if you have a plan in place for my position?”

    1. pumpkin scone*

      I understand your concerns and have similar worries for my workplace. It might be good to get the conversation started, but remember that the regulations have not been released yet; they are expected in July.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t see any problem with asking him that. I certainly would, if it affected my job (it doesn’t since I’m already hourly and not likely to meet the exempt pay threshold ever).

    3. Pwyll*

      I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t bring it up with that phrasing. But I would also keep in mind (as pumpkin says) that the rules aren’t final yet, so it may be a bit premature. Lots of small businesses I work with aren’t putting terribly much planning into what they’re going to do until they know exactly what the rules are going to be.

    4. Renee*

      An argument might be that the overtime they would have to pay over the 60+ hour periods of employment along with other costs would exceed or come close enough to the requisite salary bump such that the bump is worth it (cost of overtime + cost of tracking time + convenience of flexible time). FWIW, even if they don’t bump you up, they can still pay you on a salary basis/allow Fridays off without a cut in pay for your base hours. The issue is going to be the overtime they need to pay on the 60+ weeks. Except for the overtime, they could still allow you some flexibility.

      All of this assumes that your duties also meet the management component of the admin test required to be exempt. I’m assuming they do as you are already exempt.

    5. Observer*

      There is nothing in the law that keeps your boss from allowing you to be flexible. The two things that the changes are going to require are tracking your hours and paying you overtime. But, your boss can allow you to take Fridays off, regardless, and allow you to move your hours around in any given week without problems.

  87. the_scientist*

    I know there are some technical writers on here, and I’d love to hear about how you got into the field and if you have any training or freelancing advice. I’m a scientist and I’ve been told that I’m good at distilling technical details into things that the average reader understands. I know historically, technical writing was mainly about writing user manuals, but I’m interested in the science/tech communication aspect of it. I’m particularly interested in and passionate about sharing the awesomeness that is science with a lay audience, and I think it’s really problematic how many researchers in my field are so resistant to “dumbing down” their research or communicating with a more general audience.

    I’m not looking to do technical writing full-time, but I think it would be an interesting challenge and potentially lead to some freelancing work….but how do I get started? Is it worth taking an introductory class at a local college? Should I start a blog? Are there good free courses/resources out there?

    1. Cherry*

      I started as a tech writer about 15-ish years ago with a science degree and some pretty basic portfolio pieces, so it can definitely be done. A lot of people who freelance start out as technical editors with science journals or writing for trade publications. IMO, introductory classes in tech writing aren’t particularly helpful if you’re already a good writer, but there are some decent graduate programs out there.
      Check out the Society for Technical Communication – depending on where you live, they may have leads on jobs or freelance gigs and the local chapters host networking events. If you decided to make a career of it, and you’re in the U.S., the federal government tends to hire a lot of science writers (I worked at one of the National Labs for many years).

    2. Shell*

      I looked into becoming a tech writer but ultimately decided not to pursue it. But I did take a few of those courses, and I think they’re valuable for people looking into it. I like to think of myself as a decent writer, but those beginner courses did emphasize on how to break things into sections, how to convey the information (both in the “keep it simple, no flowery language” way and the “don’t assume A to B is ‘natural’, write down all the steps, even ones you think are super obvious” way). My writing actually got a lot longer in that course, since I didn’t assume anything; our first project was to make a manual of a relatively simple task (e.g. how to open a bottle of wine–I seriously had never done this–or how to make a grilled cheese sandwich, etc.). It’s actually remarkable how much you can write, without wasting words, if you want to convey the entire process without assuming knowledge of anything. Diagrams were involved. :)

      The courses were aimed towards manual writing, which may be different for your scope. I didn’t learn anything groundbreaking about vocab or anything like that, but it did give me a different perspective on how to convey information.

    3. TL -*

      It also sounds like you’re more interested in the science journalism/outreach side of things? I think of technical writing as being aimed towards those already in the field, even if it’s just a small bit, rather than the general layperson.

    4. Ultraviolet*

      Ed Yong once collected a bunch of “origin stories” from other science writers about how they got started. It’s an interesting read. My two-second Google search didn’t turn it up, or I’d link it.

      The Science magazine website’s career section has a lot of stuff about science writing too, though it’s hard to navigate and much of it is circa 2000.

    5. Undine*

      It sounds like you’re actually more interested in doing “science writing” — popular writing about scientific subjects. I’m a technical writer for a software company, so I don’t have specific advice. A blog might be good — I would look around at the various science blogs that are out there — there are a lot of online blogs by various kinds of scientist. Finding other bloggers who share your passion and making connections with them would be really helpful.

      I would also study writers who have succeeded at making their subject interesting, such as Oliver Sacks. If I was going to take a course, I might look more at something like creative nonfiction, science writing, or science journalism. Technical writing is about hiding your personality under a corporate persona. You want something that will teach you how to find your individual voice as a scientist.

      It sounds like you are fortunate in that you have intimate knowledge of a subject you care about, so you have a jump on the mathematician George Polya’s advice on style:

      ““The first rule of style is to have something to say. The second rule of style is to control yourself when, by chance, you have two things to say; say first one, then the other, not both at the same time.”

  88. Jade*

    A friend of mine just told me that she had a bad first day at her new job. The manager got into a shouting match with another employee in front of everyone, then the manager stormed off and ignored my friend the rest of the day, giving her no direction on what she should be doing all day. My friend was shocked by what happened and was too scared to approach the manager in her foul mood (friend is very timid and has panic attacks over stuff like this) to ask what she should be learning. She told me that she regrets taking this job and doesn’t know what to do next.

    Some people have said she should give it time and see whether this is the norm around there; that this could have just been a fluke day. Some people have told her that any manager who will engage in shouting matches with employees, let alone in front of everyone else, is not professional and not someone you want to work for. They think my friend should quit right away. Some have even suggested she ask her manager at her last job, which she left last week, if she can come back (since they seem desperate for help there). My advice was to ask some of the other people there if this behavior was normal, and if it is, then she should leave.

    How do you think she should handle this? Should she give it time, or is this a big red flag to run for the hills?

    1. Jade*

      So I got some more details and it gets better. Apparently this shouting match involved the manager swearing and calling all the employees lazy, being sick of their *&^%, etc. And that my friend tried asking other people to show her what she should be doing and they blew her off, literally closed a door in her face.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Wow.
        If it were just the sweary manager, I’d say maybe it is just him, but they CLOSED THE DOOR IN HER FACE???? I’d say yes, take that as a huge red flag and either resume the search or see about going back to the old job.

      2. Laura*

        Your poor friend seems to have ended up in a crazy place. I would advise her to look elsewhere for jobs– now.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This is not good advice and she probably should not do this. But I would be tempted to call in on the next work day and quit. There is really no point to being there.

      1. Jade*

        I think people have convinced her to go back at least for a few more days and see how people treat her, if for no other reason than to have confirmation that yes, that place sucks. She is very nervous about how to quit, too. I told her it’d probably be better if she told her boss in person, but she’s afraid of that confrontation. I don’t know if it’s smart to quit over the phone or via a note left behind.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          If she’s going to quit after a few days, and with a crazy boss like this, she can totally do it over the phone or email. It’s not like they’re going on her resume or going to be a reference, and when people behave like her boss is, they forfeit the right to mature, in-person conversations.

  89. Applesauced*

    I’m looking for tips for people who look young – specifically, how to respond when someone balks at hearing you age or makes a similar comment. I’m 29 and frequently asked where I’m studying/if I’m an intern. My knee-jerk reaction is “No, I’m an adult” but that’s rude.
    I know this will be a good problem eventually, but right now it feels like people undervalue me and/or don’t give me difficult work because they assume I’m inexperienced.

    1. Just Say No*

      I look younger than my actual age. It is a nice problem later in life, but can be difficult when you’re younger. Early in my career I took to dressing more professionally than strictly necessary for my office. I wore business suits more often than others because it seemed to allow people to differentiate me from a student or intern.

      In the workplace, if it’s appropriate and true, you could mention how long you’ve been with the employer or in the role. “Oh, no, I’m a teapot engineer and have been with Teapot Designs for 5 years now.”

      As for being able to have more difficult work or responsibility, that should be a discussion with those people that dole out the work/assignments and not have age included as a factor. Be sure these people know what types of work you’re looking to take on and inquire if there are certain steps you need to take to be able to assume any of those responsibilities or projects. Keep it about your skills, not your age.

    2. Mando Diao*

      I usually find ways of inserting my timeline into conversation. “I haven’t been an intern in 10 years!” or “Well, when I finished college in 2008….”

      It can be awkward until you get used to throwing those tidbits out there, but I find that it’s helpful to my overall presentation and perception. I’m in my 30s, I hint at it up front, and I expect to be treated like an adult with 10+ years of professional experience.

    3. KR*

      I usually act mystified when they ask and say something like, “No, this is what I do for a living. ” Someone the other day asked me if I was here for a school project or just for fun – like wtf? I know I look young but who just says that to someone?

    4. Ife*

      GAH I have the same problem. I am 26 and get asked this all the time. It is certainly *not* a compliment, despite what people will try to tell you! I don’t know what to say when people make an assumption like that. Mostly I just stare at them in shock and confusion as I’m trying to form the words, “I graduated years ago…” which is probably not the most effective response.

      Obviously there’s not much you can do about how your body looks, but you can make changes in how you project yourself and how you dress. I found that when I got my hair cut shorter, I didn’t receive these comments as much. I don’t like to wear makeup, but when I do wear it I’m less likely to be mistaken for a student. I also try to avoid young-looking clothes (bright colors, bold patterns, etc.)**. And I am short, so high heels help a little.

      Behavior makes a difference too. When I’m feeling shy/staying back from the interaction, people are way more likely to assume that I’m younger than I am. Conversely, when I’m leading something or acting more confidently, they are less likely to make that assumption.

      **Ok, this is not totally true. I am all about the bright, bold colors and prints, but I tone it down when I need to be taken seriously/don’t want to have the “I’m a grown-up dammit” conversation.

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m in my early 30s but get mistaken for a 24 year old all the time. It’s both flattering and annoying. I’m sure I will love it when I’m 55. I try to laugh it off with a little, “yeah I get that a lot. I’ve been a working professional for a decade!”

    6. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I’m 36, and people say I look like I’m in my early 20s (personally I don’t see it but hey). I don’t really get people asking me if I’m a student or interning, but I do get a lot of patronising comments or “but you’re too young to know about that” wink wink. I just ignore it mostly. Every now and then I’ll ask in a confused manor how old they think I am. I understand that a lot of people think it’s a compliment but I get so annoyed by it!

      Not helpful advice, I’m sure – but you have my sympathy!

    7. Ultraviolet*

      This is sooooo frustrating. Argh.

      In general it’s probably best to stay totally matter-of-fact in your responses. A hint of defensiveness will work against you. Possible responses:

      -if someone asks a question that implies you’re a student, act like they asked a slightly different question. If they ask where you go to school, say “I graduated from X University in 2008.” What’s your major? “In college I majored in X.” If you can’t do that with their question, just correct them matter-of-factly and move on. What do you want to do after graduating? “Oh, actually I graduated in 2008 and then I did X job before coming here, where I…”

      -if someone asks if you’re an intern, tell them what your job is and also [briefly!] what projects you work on and/or what things are your responsibilities to handle–whatever gives them a sense of your role. You could potentially pretend to have misheard them and say, “Oh, I’m not supervising any interns.” but that’s a little less defensible.

      This isn’t exactly what you asked, but how–that is, by what mechanism–do you think the perception of you as young is preventing you from getting difficult work? Are project leaders not seeking you out, or your boss not volunteering you for things? Depending on how this is happening, there are probably ways to address it other than making your age known.

      Finally, I’m going to link in a reply comment to a popular fashion blog post about dressing to look older.

    8. Laura*

      I’m 22 (I look younger) and I work in higher education. I’m okay with people taking me for a college student but my job involves going to high schools. I get mistaken for a high school student probably once a week. The way I respond to this depends on the situation. When a security guard yelled at me to “get to class, young lady!” I turned, showing my nametag (which identifies my institution) and said “I beg your pardon?!” in a kind of incredulous way. But when it’s a simple misunderstanding, I’m nicer about it.

      You really, really can’t judge a book by its cover.

    9. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I’m 45 and look much younger – soon after I was hired, a co-worker stopped me when I was talking about my daughter turning 18, because she’d assumed I was in my late 20’s. I think she was being generous, but my entire life I’ve been presumed to be 10-15 years younger than I am. It’s definitely a better problem to have as you get older.

      When I first started my career (in advertising back then) it was hard to be taken seriously. I was asked more than once if my boss was my mother, which pissed her off mightily as she was only 10 years older than me. I tried to compensate by dressing and acting with a very high degree of professionalism, and I cut my hair short which did age my looks a little. But mostly I just had to push through and prove myself with hard work. It does get better though!

    10. Overeducated*

      Being asked where I go to college is the ONLY context where I enjoy saying, “I got my PhD at Famous U.”

    11. Not So NewReader*

      It is very hard to guess people’s ages. And as you get older it gets worse. I think for me it is because I used to think anyone that was not a teen was OLD. This did not help me to learn how to infer people’s ages.

      I had a part time job where I had to id people. One person told me, “aw come on – you and I are the same age. I looked at his id and said “I am 13 years older than you”. His jaw hit the counter. He said “You’re right, it is hard to guess people’s ages.”

      Maybe this is an angle you can use. Start by saying, “Yeah, I know it is hard to guess people’s ages. I am actually 29.”
      I have even worked in, “this is why I don’t guess any more, no one is where I think they should be!” which is sort of a passive – aggressive slam but sometimes people need to get a little jolt.

    12. Ultraviolet*

      Of course another option is to invite all your coworkers to a super amazing 30th birthday party. /kidding

    13. Jen*

      I also looked very young because I started in the professional world at 18. Whenever I would get these I’d say something like “you know it is funny, I hear that I look really young when people see me first but if they know me by my work only they always guess 10 years older than I am”

  90. Chriama*

    Has anyone ever participated in the JET (Japan English Teacher) program? I’m thinking about applying at the end of this year. If you have been part of it, do you have any advice? I don’t have any experience as an English teacher but I’ve been a tutor (mostly for math, but a little bit of English/reading), I teach Sunday school to kids, and I’m signing up with one of those online English tutor companies. Is any of this worth it? Is there anything else I can be doing before the end of the year to become a more attractive candidate?

    1. Chriama*

      I also want to note that I’m in Canada but I know this program has a bunch of partner countries.

    2. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I haven’t done it, but I know a few people who applied when we were seniors in college. (This was in 2008, so take it with a grain of salt.) Everyone I know who applied had longer-term experience abroad (semester- or year-long study abroad programs), and most of them had some sort of teaching-related experience (such as working at a summer camp or subject-area tutoring in college), but ultimately none of them were accepted. One woman told me that her teaching experience (a single summer as a camp counselor) wasn’t sufficient, although I don’t know if the program told her that or if she drew her own conclusions.

      Based on my experience preparing to teach and actually teaching abroad (I’m a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer), more teaching/tutoring experience will definitely not be detrimental, although I think it’s worth noting that there’s bound to be a learning curve when you get there regardless of your preparation! Best of luck.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Agreed. I’ve advised students who have done the JET program and known a couple of peers who did it. It’s considered a competitive, nicely-compensated, relatively well-run program. From the feedback I’ve heard, significant teaching experience would be a good thing, especially any ESL experience. I think it would be helpful if you were relatively independent and didn’t require a lot of structure/assistance in getting settled in the Japan. Also, placements can vary wildly. You might be an urban setting, or you could get posted to a very remote village where there is not a lot to do on your down time. Not sure how much say you’d have in your placement options. Perhaps you can reach out to your networks and/or connect with returned JET program participants to get their perspective? Good Luck!

    3. College Career Counselor*

      I think my earlier comment blew up. Can you get any ESL teaching experience? That would be helpful. Can you talk with returned JET program participants (through your school or through networks)? They will have specific advice.

      1. Chriama*

        RE: esl experience. I’m signing up with one of those companies that tutors English online to students overseas. They provide the materials and you basically just need to be a fluent/native speaker. Do think this kind of experience is useful? Does it depend on *which* company I work for? Or are they more likely to look down on it because it’s so easy to get into?

    4. literateliz*

      I did it (about… uhh… 6 years ago wtf) and loved it! I hadn’t taught ESL either and it wasn’t a problem – I think I played up my experience with the student magazine (coaching other students on their writing) and class projects where we taught lessons at local high schools. I also spoke some Japanese, but a lot of the JETs who arrived with me did not.

      Btw, JET actually stands for Japan Exchange and Teaching, which I only point out because the “exchange” part is really important – they want to see that you’ll get involved in the local community! I think it’s really one of those things where enthusiasm counts for more experience. If there’s any kind of community involvement or volunteering experience you have that you can point to on your application, do it – and if not, you have time to get some! I volunteered at a lot of Japanese American community events in LA (where I was living at the time). If there’s anything like that near you, I’d definitely recommend getting involved, but if not, any kind of community involvement is great. Or even hobbies that might translate to getting involved with student activities at your placement schools. Just showing that you’re interested and engaged in the world around you is a big plus. (I think I went into this in my SOP essay as well – better than talking about how much you love Japan as so many people do.)

      Happy to answer any other questions!

      1. Chriama*

        Yeah, I’ve heard that the ‘exchange’ part is really important, and it’s primarily why I’m interested. Thanks for the tip about volunteering – there’s a Japanese Cultural Festival in my city that I just signed up to volunteer for but that’s really only one weekend of the entire year. My city is nowhere near is big or culturally diverse as LA — there are a few small community associations but they seem mostly focused on activities for current members rather than outreach-type events. What other activities do you think it would be worth getting involved in? I might have time to take a language class once a week or something – do you think that’s worth doing to show cultural interest? I do volunteer a lot with kids at church and have been doing that for around 10 years so I hope that part is covered.

    5. Noni*

      I recommend reaching out to a JET Alumni Association chapter in your region. They usually hold events, which are a great way to meet former JETs to talk to for more information about the program. I didn’t go on the JET Program, but have friends who did. Some studied Japanese in college, some didn’t. Some went into the program with tutoring and teaching experience, some didn’t. You can always reach out to the Japanese embassy or consulate in your region too for more information.

      1. Chriama*

        Thanks for the tip about the JET alumni association. I totally didn’t know those existed and I’ll definitely be getting in touch. I’m not sure what kind of information would be appropriate to ask the Japanese consulate though. Do you have any thoughts?

        1. Noni*

          Ask for the JET Program coordinator at the Japanese embassy or consulate. The coordinator from the Japanese consulate in my region came to my university and gave a presentation about JET. The coordinator was a JET alum, so I asked about the experience as well as the application process (what to submit? the application timetable?). There’s a specific application window, so make sure you hit all the deadlines. The local consulate/embassy website should also have a JET page that provides more information. Ultimately I didn’t apply, but my friends who did go on the program worked with the program coordinator, who handled all the paperwork etc., leading up to their departure for Japan. It seemed like a well-run program. Try to connect to alumni from your school who went on the program — they’re usually happy to talk about their experiences as well. Good luck!

    6. katamia*

      I have friends who did JET and seem to have had good experiences. If you think you might want to do more ESL teaching after JET, you could look into getting a CELTA certification. (I have one, so if you have more questions about the CELTA experience, I may be able to answer them.)

      You could also see if your area has a literacy council or similar org and try volunteering for them.

    7. Roll Fizzlebeef*

      I never did JET, but I did do 2 years with EPIK (kind of a Korean JET) and nearly 3 at a for-profit ESL company in China. Both are less picky than JET from what I’ve heard from others, so if you don’t get into JET and you aren’t set on Japan, they could be options worth considering. Both were also really positive experiences and I’d definitely recommend either. Your teaching experience with kids is definitely a plus – lots of people go into ESL teaching without every having taught kids, and too often some will find that they hate it.

      Another thing to consider how you think you’ll adjust to life in another country that’s very different. It can be challenging and stressful to live somewhere where you can’t even read, much less speak, the local language. Dealing with corporate or government bureaucracy will be tough, and even just ordering food or shopping can be stressful. But on the other hand, as long as you don’t stay in the foreign teacher bubble, you’ll have a lot of great experiences and plenty of opportunities to learn the language.

      1. Chriama*

        I have heard of EPIK but I *really* want to go to Japan. What sort of things do you think helped when you were applying for them though? If all my interest and activities are primarily Japanese culture focused, do you think that will raise any eyebrows?

        1. Roll Fizzlebeef*

          I know someone who was interested in Japan and JET, didn’t get accepted, and did EPIK instead. He’s still there, been there for about 5 years. He knew more about Japan and Japanese culture than Korea. I think that as long as you keep an open mind and show a willingness to learn a bit about Korea before going, you’d do fine. Being very interested in Japanese culture shouldn’t raise eyebrows, especially if you spin it as a gateway to learning more about Korea.

          I did substitute teaching before I applied to EPIK, and that was the extent of my education experience. My impression is that they’re much less likely to reject than JET, due to not getting nearly as many applicants. On the other hand, I think the cultural exchange aspect isn’t emphasized as much as with JET, but that’s also something you can really make the most of independently, too.

  91. LizB*

    Two exciting things this week: I just got my first case where I’ll actually be able to work with the client instead of just doing boring paperwork, AND my incompetent nightmare manager is leaving at the end of June! Things are looking up.

  92. Just Say No*

    A lot of changes and challenges are occurring at work right now. I’m generally happy in the job (there are the usual frustrations all jobs have), but have concerns about how the impending changes will impact my work life. I see the potential for extra work added to my plate in addition to adapting to the changes.

    An employer I used to work for part-time (and left on very good terms) has a job posted that interests me, so I submitted my resume this morning. I’m not sure I’m really ready to leave my current employer, but I also want to keep my options open while the various changes settle out.

    I’ve been with my current employer for several decades and changing to a different industry with a different employer is a scary proposition. While I worked there part-time in the past, it’s been long enough and a different enough role that I’d be starting from square one.

    Any advice from people who’ve made a significant switch mid-career? Why did you switch? How did it turn out? What do you wish you’d done differently?

  93. Persephone Mulberry*

    Today is my last day at this job!!! *insert happy dance* I regretted taking it almost as soon as I started (like literally within weeks) and I can’t believe I actually stuck it out almost four years.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        Funny story:

        At old terrible work place the boss took a vacation to Europe one summer. He shipped back cases of Italian wine for the employees. Nice gesture right? I saw my bottle on my desk and thought, that’s what I’m drinking the day I quite this job to celebrate. A few months later I was contacted by a recruiter. I put the wine in the fridge so it would be ready to go. The night after I gave notice I pulled the bottle out and cracked it open. Worst wine ever. Kind of a fitting end to the worst job ever.

    3. Cruciatus*

      Congrats! At my first job that I should have been excited to get (finally paid full time, benefits, etc.) I wrote in my journal the day I accepted “I think I have made a huge mistake.” The company was (and continues to be) dysfunctional. My hours sucked (Wednesday-Sunday, 2:30-11:00), I was paid $8 an hour, I had no actual responsibilities (watching a very small medical school library after normal hours, by myself) so hours and days felt like they took forever. I ended up being at that company for 4 years as well! Only 2 in the library position. I figured….have to start somewhere. And while I have issues with my current boss, I am in a job that’s a major step up and hopefully the next one will be too. Now I have some stories to tell at parties about my first company…

  94. Tara R.*

    I woke up in time for the Friday open thread! This never happens!

    I’m still trying to figure something out for the summer. I have an interview for an on-call position at the liquor store the day after I get home. I’m really hoping to get something that’s going to be 2-3 days a week at minimum, but I can’t decide if I’ll turn down a job offer if it sounds like it’s not going to be enough hours– summer jobs are really scarce around my hometown and I need to work at least a little the summer. My boss from last summer said she’ll let me know in May if funding comes through for her summer positions (which are just two months), but I’m worried about holding out for that and then either the funding falling through or just not getting the position.

    Also– my interview at the liquor store is on the 27th and I’m planning to go camping with my friends from the 30th to the 2nd, and it’s stressing me out a bit. This seems like the sort of position where they want you to start training right away, so I’m a bit worried I’ll have to bail on my friends at the last minute and lose my last chance to see them for the summer. :(

  95. AF*

    This is sort of tongue-in-cheek, but I legitimately could use some bereavement time to mourn the loss of Prince. I’m sure my manager would go for that, right?

    1. Rob Lowe can't read*

      My boyfriend and I have been joking all day that anything outside the norm is because of Prince bereavement. His commute took half as long as usual today? It’s because everyone stayed home to mourn for Prince. Two of his co-workers are leaving work early? It’s because they’re going to Prince memorials. My tutoring clients cancelled? It’s because mom decided they need to drive to Minneapolis to pay their respects.

      But for serious, though, RIP.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Prince :(
      The Onion had a great article that said people are too sad to get busy, even though Prince would have wanted it that way. LOL.

      I already said to someone that if Stephen King goes, I will definitely need to stay home that day.

    5. Mimmy*

      I’m sure there are a small number of people who would legitimately feel the need to stay home from work when a favorite celebrity passes, so you would not be the only one, I’m sure.

      1. AF*

        Exactly. It’s like a member of our family dying. I was sort of kidding, but not really. Very glad that so many of us feel the same way! And I loved The Onion article too!

    6. Stephanie*

      My friend works as a CSR at our local utility. She said someone told her he didn’t pay his bill because he was too sad about Prince.

  96. CollegeAdmin*

    The head of my department (my boss’ boss) asked me to submit a conference proposal. I was okay with it at the time – not thrilled, but fine – and he’s not really the kind of person you say “no” to.

    I just got word that my proposal’s been accepted…but now I am even less enthused about going. The conference is in the middle of nowhere (no great way to get there) and it’s a week after I move into my apartment.

    1. Is saying, “Thanks but no thanks” forbidden by weird conference norms that I don’t know about?
    2. Is there a good way to break it to the department head that I don’t want to go without skewering my career?

    1. Karowen*

      Eh…I think the time to say “thanks but no thanks” was back when you were asked to submit the proposal. At this point, I think you just have to deal with it.

      1. CollegeAdmin*

        The one piece I do have that’s different is the apartment – at the time I submitted it (6 weeks ago?) I wasn’t even looking for a place. But I see your point.

    2. S0phieChotek*

      I sort of agree, at least in terms of academic conferences. (I’ve gone to a lot and yes, people back out) but it annoys conference planners who often reject people to give you a spot, etc. Emergencies do come up, but people that don’t have genuine medical emergencies, etc. and just write and say “Oh, I forgot I have to teach a class that day” sort of thing or “oops I don’t have the money to come” can cause some exasperation on the part of conference planners (and I’ve been there).

      Since this was at the behest of your boss, do you get funds to go to conference/pay for fees? (Also maybe should have asked about that when asked to apply, though.)

      You’re representing your school/department/business, too; opportunity for networking…?

      1. CollegeAdmin*

        The institution would foot the bill, so that’s not an issue. (There was some quibbling about transportation costs – it’s expensive to fly there so it was suggested that I drive the 10+ hours, but that’s not happening.)

        I think I’m just going to have to deal with it and go.

  97. animaniactoo*

    This is just me having a laugh moment.

    The owners of my company sometimes have very unrealistic about practical usage of some machines or spaces. They designed the copy/print area to fit in a fairly small space. In part to squeeze an entire department in a large open cubicle on the other side of it (that space has been the laughing stock of the company since everyone first saw it and anybody who has gotten stuck working in it gets lots of sympathy).

    Recently, they discovered that the copier at the entrance to that space has to be out further from the wall to prevent an overheat issue. Now I and another overweight co-worker have to squeeze every time we go in to pick stuff up off one of the other printers. Even co-workers who aren’t that overweight are like “this is kind of tight here”.

    Now we have a tech here to repair that copier and he just quite literally told them that he doesn’t have enough space to work on the machine. This means removing a wall divider and the desk on the other side of it. Along with all the stuff of the poor person who just moved *in* to that desk after they rearranged that cube again (to fit more people into it).

    1. animaniactoo*

      Note: When I say even people who aren’t our size, my 5’6″ marathon runner very fit co-worker just looked up on hearing all of what’s going on (it’s across from our row of half-height cubicles) and said “it’s tight over there”.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        As someone who’s recently had to use crutches and has a co-worker who uses a wheelchair, you might want to warn someone that this setup could run afoul of the ADA.

        Also, it’s ridiculous.

          1. animaniactoo*

            No to fire laws, it’s open *enough* and small *enough* as an area that it can be reasonably expected you’d be able to get out in case of a fire, and that you wouldn’t be in it long enough to be trapped by a fire unexpectedly unless a bomb went off and then all bets are off.

            ADA – that’s a possible route, but the accommodation would likely be that a co-worker just picks up your prints for you, or you use the front area copier if it’s regular copying and not the large-format printer.

            For giggles, the agreement they ultimately came to today is that they’re going to put the stand that holds the large format printer rolls (we keep them on the rollers because we switch between different glossy/plain paper/adhesive backed so often) will be put on wheels so that it can be wheeled out of the way when the copier guy comes. Because he told them they couldn’t just do a “today” solution, it had to be something permanent so that the copier could always be accessed/serviced when help is called for.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Whoops. Meant to say what putting that on wheels and moving it out of the way means is that the copier can be pulled out and turned towards the opening so the guy can stand in the hallway/aisle to service it.

            2. Observer*

              If people need to “squeeze” then it almost certainly is NOT open enough.

              Fire laws a pretty specific about how wide the passages have to be, and this doesn’t sound like it works. I suggest you look up how wide any passageway needs to be and bring that to your bosses.

  98. Jen*

    I was laid off in Feb and interviewed extensively for a senior leadership type role in late feb and most of March with a company. Toward the end of march, before my final interview, I had an offer to do consulting work that I very seriously considered, and let the recruiter know that it was also n the table and I’d need to make a final decision mid-April.

    my interview came and went that last week of march, and I have not heard from the recruiter. Now, I’d generally take that as a bad sign but I have been on/off with this company since early January going weeks without contact.

    I have also decided I don’t want to work there and I will (have already) move into consulting. I am curious, though, what they decided to do with the role/their general feedback. Do I just let this die off, or reach out to the recruiter to be rejected officially? Send him a note saying I’m off the market? It seems odd to reach out if I’m already out of the running, but who knows. I think they are searching for the Unicorn Candidate and may or may not every find him/her…and keeping the bench warm in the meantime.

    It feels odd not to close the loop on this, but frankly, this total radio silence (and a really terrible impression of the people with which I’d be working most directly, and contacts that confirm my impression of a terrible work/life balance at a time I need it most!) is one of several reasons I decided to bow out of the running (if I’m even still IN the running).

  99. Jillociraptor*

    I didn’t want to derail all aboard the anontrain’s post above but I’m wondering…

    If you freelance on the side of your day job, how much and what kind of work for your freelance business do you think is appropriate to do at your day job? Checking emails? Stepping out for phone calls? Getting actual work done on your lunch hour?

    1. justsomeone*

      I do some social media freelancing for a small business and I check up on the IG and FB and FB group on my breaks on my phone. My breaks are My Time to do what I want with, so I often choose to do some of my freelance stuff then.

    2. Rubyrose*

      Whatever you want on breaks and lunch as long as you are not using company resources. Just be sure these are not longer than normal. Freelancing activities should not interfere at all with your normal workflow.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      None, except on your break and on your own devices (i.e., you do not use your work computer, even to check other business emails). But if you brought in your own laptop and wanted to work on your lunch break (away from the office), that’s fine.

      I’d be hesitant to step out for phone calls, even if they are technically on a (non-lunch) break (unless you work under a clear clock in, clock out system), because if someone overhears or observes you, it will look really bad.

      I think the best way to frame it when deciding where and when to work is that what you’re doing is not personal business, it’s commercial business. If you do it on “company” time and equipment, you are using it for another company, even if that company is you.

  100. legalchef*

    I had an interview yesterday and I think it went well, but it was hard to get a read on things because they use an interview script (so that every candidate is asked the same questions in the same order). Is that a new thing that places are doing? It is supposedly to cut down on inherent biases, but it also cut down on any back and forth conversation and made things kinda awkward.

    1. NK*

      Not really a new thing, just a thing that some companies do because they don’t trust people to effectively interview. AAM has some articles on this; it actually hampers interviewers’ ability to effectively hire because they’re not given the latitude to ask the right follow-up questions or ask questions specific to their background/experience.

      1. fposte*

        We’re required to do it by the state. We still manage to get some decent conversation going, but I’ve heard of places that even restrict followup questions and responses.

      2. Legalchef*

        That’s how I felt too. Sometimes the panel would nod at things I said but there wasn’t any real flow.

  101. jbeans*

    Any experiences taking on consulting work while working full-time? I’m looking for information about conflicts of interest and managing time. Current job is a contractor for the federal government. Previous job was consulting for the federal government as part of a firm. I’ve been asked if I’m interested in taking on side projects by another consulting group.

    1. Mockingjay*

      As a fed contractor, your company very likely forbids moonlighting for another contractor/consultant. Conflicts of Interest are taken very seriously due to intense competition for work. Also, many companies have teaming agreements that forbid Company A to recruit Company B’s employee for side work or permanent employment. These agreements can be in force even if there is no active work.

      I would check your company handbook and your employment agreement carefully before proceeding.

  102. MillersSpring*

    Forgive me if this has been asked already: Anyone have suggestions on how to deal with presenters who read their slides word for word? Would it be OK for either an attendee or the person running the meeting to interrupt and ask the presenter to speak about the main points rather than reading us the slide? Sometimes the presenter is junior than me, but I’m not the one running the meeting–just suffering along with everyone else in the room and/or on the call. However I’ve seen presenters do this and their supervisor is beaming with pride and might bristle at the public criticism/suggestion for their direct report. OTOH, what if the presenter is a peer or senior to you?

    This irks me so much, but I just don’t have the magic words where I won’t come off as hostile.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I usually glance at the slide, read it myself, and then tune out and start doodling.

    2. Another time*

      Could your suggestion wait until after the presentation where it could be done in private? I would hate to derail someone mid-presentation.

    3. Sadsack*

      I think it would be pretty rude to call someone out in the middle of his presentation to tell him to do it better, even if it is excruciating to sit though. Is there ever an opportunity to provide feedback about presentations? I think that’s the time to do it.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Yes, it would be rude during the presentation. The best way to do this would be to have a dedicated training mandate on presentation skills where everyone gets to be in the hot seat. If your organisation could set aside time so that people present, everyone gives feedback/suggestions, then the next person goes. The presentations wouldn’t necessarily have to be on company stuff — some people are just better at speaking about things they feel passionate about, like their hobbies. If someone who was good at presenting could give little lessons about things like “don’t read every word on your slide”, and the assignments would revolve around that, for example, prepare a presentation using images only. It does require practice and preparation but not everyone is going to sacrifice their free time to join Toastmasters.

    4. fposte*

      I don’t think you can, unless you’re their manager. It’s not an objective error that needs to be corrected–it’s just them doing something you don’t like, but it’s a thing that they can’t change on the fly.

    5. Christian Troy*

      Yeah I don’t know. I once worked on a group project where it was another guy’s turn to speak and he read every slide word for word. I wanted to die because it shows such a lack of awareness.

    6. Lillian McGee*

      I’m gonna agree that you probably just need to suffer through it unless you are the manager. I agree it is the WORST. Every time the local government here does a “training” it is just someone reading powerpoints verbatim. WORST.

    7. caligirl*

      Ha! This just happened for me this afternoon. I read the slide being projected then went to my internal happy place with kittens and rainbows.

    8. Ultraviolet*

      Honestly, I think this would come across very badly. An attendee who interrupted and asked the presenter not to read the slides would be seen as extremely rude. A lot of the audience would come away with a really negative impression of the interrupter.

      For what it’s worth, an interruption like that probably wouldn’t result in a better presentation either. I don’t think there’s much overlap between people who routinely read their slides word for word and people who could give a great extemporaneous talk instantly on demand, especially if the time is strictly limited, and especially if they’ve just been humiliated.

      Other than sucking it up, I think your options are 1) try to put together a workshop on good presentations (but bear in mind you can’t force anyone to stick to the guidelines presented there); 2) suggest people just speak off notes in these meetings and don’t use slides at all, or maybe one slide with an outline on it; 3) talk to a group of managers or other higher-ups and suggest everyone coach their direct reports on more effective presentations, pointing out that the slide-reading presentations are not a great use of everyone’s time. People might feel a little insulted by that, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near as hostile as interrupting a presentation to criticize the delivery.

  103. Anonymous Educator*

    Has anyone else been contacted by a former boss two years after leaving, asking a random question about something? I basically politely told my former boss I didn’t remember the details and suggested some places to look, but I just found it odd. It’s not really an issue of labor—if it was a constant barrage of questions that involved actual work, I’d ask to charge as a contractor. I just found it odd… like, “Do you actually expect me to remember two years after the fact, when you’re there and don’t remember?”

    1. NicoleK*

      Two years???!!! That’s crazy. I left Old Job close to 4 months ago and I thought 4 months was a long time (still waiting for my replacement to contact me about my former responsibilities)

    2. S0phieChotek*

      Yes, 2 years seems really odd. Was it something they could reasonably expect not to have to even look at for 2 years anyway?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, it wasn’t something they’d be looking at every day, but I mean… I’ve been gone for two years.

  104. Margali*

    First-time interviewer interviewing for culture fit — any suggestions? I’m excited about adding this to my skill set…but I’m also going in completely untrained, and would love any suggestions from AAM readers (and of course from Alison, if your eyes pass over this question!) When I think about our company culture, these are the traits that come to mind: requires self-management of time, discourages micromanagment, flat organizational structure, informal, friendly. Suggestions both for questions and also how to conduct an interview well are welcomed!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would ask what a typical day at work is like for them in terms of how it’s structured, and then ask how they would like their day to be structured if they could have control over it. The two may be the same, but it will give you a sense of both their experience and their work style.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      Ask about how they look for feedback (this can give you info on how they react to feedback) and an example of how they have dealt with a workflow disruption (i.e. something short–or better, long–term that interrupted their status quo).

      Anonymous Educator’s suggestions are also fantastic.

  105. Rick*

    When is it worth saying something to a company about crappy interviewers?

    About a year ago I had a Skype interview with a new company. I set up my space for the interview (cleaned desk and area behind it to be spotless, tested my mic, headphones and webcam)
    well in advance. I signed on Skype and waited for the call.

    It never came, so I looked at my email and the guy who was supposed to interview me sent me an
    annoyed email half an hour before our scheduled time saying something like “Hi, I just tried calling you on Skype but it appears you’re offline. Please let me know if you can’t make today.”

    I emailed him back saying “hey we’re scheduled for this time, I’ve been online on Skype since (this time – 10 minutes), can you please tell me your Skype name?” No reply. I sent another email 5 minutes later, then 10 minutes. Nothing.

    The next Monday I got the dreaded “Unfortunately, we have decided to pursue other candidates” email. I was a little unsure of whether I should tell them about their interviewer having the wrong time, so I just passed on it. Bad idea, I know, but I wasn’t in a great frame of mind at the time.

    Now this week, a recruiter contacted me about the same company. I told them I had an unpleasant experience interviewing with them in the past and I’d be passing on them in the future. They asked me why I felt that way, and I wasn’t sure what to say back, so I said it was personal.

    Should I have said something to either the company or the recruiter? The guy who was interviewing me screwed up, but I feel like it’d have seemed like a case of sour grapes if I said anything.

    1. Jen*

      Tues, I’d have told the recruiter what happened- you were scheduled for an interview, left hanging, then got an email about missing the interview at a different time. And they rejected you.

      That’s not “personal”- to me; its logistical and perhaps unprofessional. “personal” is something like the interviewer made fun of my shoes or had some oddly broadcasted political stance I disagreed with so much that I wouldn’t want to work there. Or was my moms friends daughter.

  106. K130*

    I was super bored at work because I working below my ability (I’ve been “browsing” for other positions, but I like some of the perks here enough to stay). I was also pushing burn-out because I was doing the work of two people. There were some things our department was supposed to be handling that we couldn’t even touch because there was no time. In July another person was hired and in January another person joined us from another department; what was my primary task got transferred and split between them. This freed me to take care of a major project that was being completely ignored. Well, this potential year-long project’s timeline has been shortened up considerably and is almost at an end, just basic monthly maintenance from here out. So I was starting to be concerned about what I was going to do next. I though I was going to have to go to my quarterly one-on-one and tell my boss that I was going to have to leave because there wasn’t anything for me to do anymore and I would lose my mind if I just sat here sorting mail or something. But in yesterday’s team meeting, she mentioned another big project she wanted to do but the team who would normally handle it is understaffed. I said we could look at it and it might be something I could handle and she was very excited about it. So fingers crossed, I have a new project and can stay without going crazy!

  107. Kira Nerys*

    Just some venting….INSIDE CANDIDATES. Inside candidates, man.

    I’m trying to shift from the professorial to the academic administrative track, and I’ve had five interviews where things seemed to be going fabulously, the interviewers were really nice, I got positive feedback…and then crickets. When I look up the positions a few months later, I see they hired someone from inside, usually someone at the tail end of their Ph.D. or a recent graduate who didn’t get a job.

    I get that people have connections and they want to support their own alumni, but I just wish they’d be clear that the interview offers are pretty much for legal reasons. I’d try to take advantage of these sort of alumni connections myself – but I graduated from a religious university and recently came out of the closet, so that’s not going to happen for me.

    I’ve got an interview next week and I have my fingers crossed that I might actually be a real candidate this time around, but the rumor mill is flying. Knowing that only 4 Ph.D.’s from the program got hired this year, out of a cohort of 12 (and the 10 from last year that are still ‘on the market’), it’s looking pretty grim.

    ARGH.

    1. Bob*

      I wouldn’t say they are always “for legal reasons”. I’ve been on interviews boards before where we simply weren’t blown away by any of the candidates. In that situation, we went with a slightly weaker internal candidate. But it honestly wasn’t like the inside candidate was considered the front runner from the beginning. The evil you know…

        1. Kira Nerys*

          There really isn’t any legal reason? Wow. I always was told it was. Are there any good reasons to even have it be a policy to do more interviews outside, then? I would assume that if there was an inside candidate, that they believed met all the requirements, that it would just be a waste of time to do more interviews. (Not just the outside candidate’s time – the inside ones and the hiring committee too!)

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            The idea is make sure that managers are really making the best hire, not just taking the easy path or indulging in cronyism, because often an outside hire truly might be stronger. The problem is when hiring managers just go through the motions of adhering to the letter of policy, rather the spirit of the rule.

      2. Kira Nerys*

        Hmmm. It actually does seem like you’re saying that the inside candidate is the front runner, since you would already know them, and that the outside candidates would need to blow the committee away to be able to actually have a shot.

          1. Kira Nerys*

            I guess it’s not anything I didn’t already know. I’m rather bitter over my experiences in the academic market proper, where it’s extremely common for the interview process to staged for the looks rather than truly trying to find the best candidate. And now that I’m leaving it, I’m finding that the same things hold true on the periphery in administration, where having the right professor put in the right word means that the inside person is going to get it. (It’s kind of telling when University of Westeros has entire departments staffed by University of Westeros grads.)

            Of course, trying to find something outside of academia entirely hasn’t been much better because my academic experience doesn’t map on to what people expect to see on resumes, and I just straight-up don’t have the skills that would be expected and necessary.

            Welp, I made my mistakes and I get to live with them. Or not maybe.

  108. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

    Does anyone remember seeing the article recently? If so, please post a link to it if you can find it.

    Summary of article:
    The CEO of a convenience store (or something similar) was sitting on floor of one of his stores, filling shelves or something similar. The store was short staffed and the CEO was helping out. The CEO was dressed in the uniform that store employees wear as opposed to a suit. Someone came in for an interview in a high-level position (6 figures). She saw the CEO on the floor and commented how she could never do such menial labor. When she was informed that the man on the floor was the CEO she was mortified and tried to back out of her comment (it didn’t help). In an interview later, the CEO stated that the woman had lost any chance of getting the job when she made that comment. He went on to say that he did not put himself above others and how that was important to him in hiring people.

    If anyone can remember this, please post a link to it. I really admire that CEO.

    Thanks.

  109. Managing Question*

    Would love advice. New to a role and inherited a high-performer, we’ll call Fergus. New in role, but some experience. Previous administration functioned very differently and handled teapot production in a more theoretical, less practical way. Organization is changing directions and Fergus is having a hard time “getting” the change at a work product level. Really good at operational task, not so good at analysis/big picture. There’s been some push back on assignments. I’m not confident that the push back is just because change is hard, but have some concerns that Fergus isn’t able to do the work I’m asking for.

    I want to set Fergus up for success, but am not used to having to provide this level of direction/guidance, especially for someone with as much experience as he has. What can I do to really help give Fergus the best chance for success? Every time I give an assignment I cringe because I don’t want to keep saying no this isn’t good.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Why not sit down for a big picture discussion? “Fergus these types of assignments come with your job. But each time I give you one you push back. What’s up?”

    2. NicoleK*

      Fergus may not be a good fit in the new scheme. At Old Job, I inherited a long term direct report. The job had changed so much during her tenure that she was no longer a good fit

  110. Jadelyn*

    Can I get a perspective check here, please?

    Even the most detail-attentive person will still make mistakes from time to time, because we are all human. What’s your threshold for thinking of someone as “detail oriented”? How do you define “detail oriented”?

    (I’ve got some personal baggage around this issue, an abusive parent who was a huge perfectionist being the biggest part of that, so I’d like to get a bit of perspective from someone who is not constantly panicking over every single tiny mistake they’ve ever made because anything less than 100% perfection is Not Good Enough.)

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’m an editor, so being detail oriented is a big part of my job. I’m not sure how to define it in a precise way, but to me it means paying attention to the little stuff, and getting to a place where you /see/ the little stuff fairly quickly. That doesn’t mean you won’t miss things or make mistakes. Like you said, we’re all human. I guess the best way I can define it is that you can be in a mode where the small stuff jumps out at you.

      1. fposte*

        And also you put in the work to make it right. I’m not at all detail oriented in housekeeping: I may see the dropped paper on the floor, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to make the effort to pick it up immediately, because it doesn’t bother me. Whereas I will double check any name that looks vaguely off in spelling or capitalization.

        I can’t tell if you’re asking because you think you’re too detail oriented or because you feel like you never measure up to expectations and wonder if that means you’re not. Usually the challenge with perfectionists is the first one, seeing the wood as well as the trees; being detail oriented is also not tied to how upset you get about mistakes–I’ve known meticulous people who shrug them off and people who have a hard time seeing errors who beat themselves up.

        1. Jadelyn*

          I ask because I normally am what most people would describe as detail-oriented re work stuff – I catch little variances in formatting on documents, or items in a binder being out of order, inconsistent use of formulas in Excel, stuff like that…and 99% of the time when I see it I’ll fix it immediately – but lately I’ve been struggling with some mental health stuff that has caused me to forget things or make more mistakes than usual, so I’m trying to figure out how much is “acceptable human error” and at what point I cross the threshold into “you have a pattern of f’ing up”.

          1. fposte*

            That’s a slightly different question, I’d say; it’s not about whether you are or aren’t detail oriented, it’s about whether your error rate is acceptable. (I also think that “a pattern of fucking up” is a phraseology that leans closer to self-punishment than useful insight–how about “results are sliding below standards” or “focus impairment has become a problem”? ) Ultimately, that depends on your job and your manager’s opinion, but you could log for a little bit to determine your rate if you wanted, and then use that figure to talk to your manager to see if it met with expectations.

            It also depends on what you do and what else you’re achieving. I drop emails and even misremember them when I’ve got a big project going; it’s not ideal, but they’re not the priority, and people can recommunicate the information. It’s not an acceptable error rate when I’m just looking at my email habit, but when I look at my overall work the positives outweigh the negatives. Could be that’s the same for you, and that it’s bugging you more because this is something that’s been a life theme for you than because your work performance has dropped in any significant way.

          2. fposte*

            Ooh, moderation filter is PG-rated, I guess. Here’s a version of my comment that’s in moderation limbo–let’s see if this one posts on its own.

            That’s a slightly different question, I’d say; it’s not about whether you are or aren’t detail oriented, it’s about whether your error rate is acceptable. (I also think that “a pattern of f’ing up” is a phraseology that leans closer to self-punishment than useful insight–how about “results are sliding below standards” or “focus impairment has become a problem”? ) Ultimately, that depends on your job and your manager’s opinion, but you could log for a little bit to determine your rate if you wanted, and then use that figure to talk to your manager to see if it met with expectations.

            It also depends on what you do and what else you’re achieving. I drop emails and even misremember them when I’ve got a big project going; it’s not ideal, but they’re not the priority, and people can recommunicate the information. It’s not an acceptable error rate when I’m just looking at my email habit, but when I look at my overall work the positives outweigh the negatives. Could be that’s the same for you, and that it’s bugging you more because this is something that’s been a life theme for you than because your work performance has dropped in any significant way.

          3. Not So NewReader*

            If you have a healthy workplace they will just focus on the fix for the mistake. If you caught it and fixed it, no big deal. If someone else caught and you needed help fixing it because it was not a small mistake, then that might mean the boss tells you to double check yourself.

            I know from experience that I can absolutely exhaust myself by worrying about mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. Double check your work, be active in finding and correcting your mistakes. Remember with any illness comes grief. Yep, we are back to talking about grief again. One of the things grief does is mess with our thinking. We make more mistakes than usual. We forget stuff. This is totally normal for a grieving person. Ugh, grieving people can be vulnerable to car accidents, falls and so on.
            Cry when you need to. Insist on getting adequate rest. Watch your self talk. You make a mistake pretend you are talking to your friend. Speak nicely to yourself and gently encourage yourself along. This takes practice especially if others have not treated you this way.

  111. Mirilla*

    How common is it for people to swear in your workplace enviornment? Our head boss is very much opposed to swearing and his new manager swears most every day, sometimes loudly, which he is unaware of. I’m hoping to get out of here soon but wondering how common this is for future jobs.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve mainly worked in schools, so in most of my workplaces, swearing is pretty minimal (not non-existent, but minimal). The one foray I had into a for-profit company, there was a lot more swearing, and one person in particular said the F or S word at least once per three sentences.

    2. Anon Moose*

      I work with lawyers. Sometimes they swear. Not in front of judges or anything, but in office conversations sometimes its warranted.

    3. Stephanie*

      I work in trucking, where people swear like sailors at work. But we’re probably outliers.

      In other office jobs, it was less common, usually tied to an emotional outburst.

      1. Bob*

        I work in IT for a Fortune 500 company and it’s like a bunch of sailors here too. Loud f-bombs all day.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        I work in higher ed. The amount of swearing is directly proportional to how much status the person has. Tenured faculty member? Can pretty much say whatever they want (most don’t abuse this), whenever they want. Low-mid level staff member? Better know your audience (peers is probably okay), and it’s probably best if you’re quoting something a student said, not something YOU think/feel.

        1. Laura*

          I also work in higher ed and I agree with you. I’m astonished at the language used by a director in my office. He’s very casual and swears frequently, which doesn’t bother me as much as the discriminatory remarks he makes. He is pretty open about how he feels about religious people, which really rubs me the wrong way. I know he would never be like this around students, though.

    4. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      I work in an office job. Incredibly uncommon in every office I’ve ever worked in. I’d expect it more in sales, IT, construction, or trucking. It’s been difficult for me to reign it in, normally I can make a sailor blush.

    5. ACA*

      It’s not uncommon here in university office, but it’s usually directed at our computers/in response to bad news, not in conversation. Back when I worked in a call center, though, we would swear up a storm (never to a caller! Just…usually about a caller).

    6. Jillociraptor*

      There is one member of my team who swears all the time (not AT people), and it’s kind of funny to see how that changes the dynamic of meetings–he’ll drop one f-bomb, and all of a sudden everyone’s employing some colorful language!

    7. Jadelyn*

      Depends on the culture of the office and the…intensity, for lack of a better term, of the swearing. In a more casual environment, nobody will probably bat an eye at a casual “Oh, shit!” when you drop something, or “Dammit!” when your computer refuses to play nice. But unless you know for sure it’s okay – ie, usually blue-collar environments and certain super-laid-back offices – I’d steer clear of harsher swears. I’d especially try to refrain from “fuck” simply because it’s the Big Daddy of swears for most people, and anything involving “bitch”, including “son of a bitch” because of the gendered connotations and the associated issues that can bring up.

      Then again, even in an office, there are occasions where nobody will be bothered by heavier swears. I’m in HR, and my manager refers to certain types of conversations as a “Look, motherfucker…” moment – although only ever behind closed doors.

    8. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Im in the head office of a heavy ops-based company (large wheeled vehicles involved, but technically not trucking). Probably not as much swearing if we were out in the field, but for HQ of the company there is a lot of swearing on my team, in meetings, hell, even the senior leadership will drop a few now and then in a meeting (some more than others). No one bats an eyelid.

      Have to admit, it works for me, after coming from a very conservative company where letting one or two minor swear words slip through was frowned upon. And given the insanity in that place, you would have to be a saint to get by without swearing at least once a day.

    9. Mockingjay*

      I support the United States military (civilian and uniformed). You’d think the F-bombs would fly all the time. We’re actually pretty polite. Only when things go very awry does the heavy artillery come out.

    10. Mirilla*

      Wow, interesting replies! I’ve never worked in an office where swearing is allowed, unless behind closed doors. This office I am in now is really the same. The owner is extremely, how shall I say this, uptight and frowns upon improper language in the workplace. That’s why it’s so hilarious that his new head star manager swears, loudly. I think if he walked by and heard her though he wouldn’t say anything since he avoids confrontation like the plague. However, if he heard one of us lower folks doing it, he for sure would have her talk to us. Crazy. I’ll keep an eye out in my next job for heir culture but I find it interesting how all places are different.

    11. anon attorney*

      My office is not particularly sweary but it does happen, usually in times of great crisis. I am probably the worst offender actually. I will mutter the f-word after a particularly asinine phone call, one of these days I’ll fail to hang up properly and client will hear me. I have heard of this happening to others. ..

    12. Audiophile*

      I’d say it’s pretty common in my workplace. Not sailor like, but in private conversations (since we have children in the building) usually one-on-ones, I’ve witnessed managers swear. It’s usually followed by an apology, which makes me laugh.

  112. Robbie*

    Can my employer withhold my yearly bonus if I was on FMLA leave?

    I took about two months of FMLA leave from December ’15 – February ’16 to take care of a sick parent.

    Everything was above board with the FMLA. I got a call from family about a parent’s health emergency. I told my boss that I’d be leaving, and he was supportive. It turned out that the condition was pretty serious, so a couple days later I let him know I’d be taking FMLA leave. I got the required paperwork submitted, and everything was cleared.

    About two months later my parent had recovered to the point that I wasn’t needed to help them out anymore, so I returned to work. When I got back, I had a catch-up with my manager where he asked me if I got my annual bonus (given in January here). I said I didn’t think so and he told me that I deserve a bonus like everyone else on his team and I should pursue it with HR.

    I went to our HR and asked, and they told me that they don’t give out bonuses to people who missed a significant amount of time. I wasn’t able to find any bonus-related policies on company intranet, and according to my boss the entire bonus / raise logistics are very opaque to anyone below VP level.

    Now from what I know, the bonus is *not* contingent on performance, but the *amount* is performance based. There are no sales quotas or anything like that in my department (back-office, non helpdesk). My understanding is that employees with better performance reviews get higher bonuses, but lower rated performers still get bonuses. Maybe not if they were on a PIP or probation, but I’m not.

    So from what I understand, the company might not be allowed to do that. But I’m a little apprehensive about taking even more time off to go talk to a lawyer and paying them to write HR a stern letter about my bonus — my past bonuses have usually been around $4K, and after taxes and lawyer fees I don’t think that’s enough to be worth fighting over, since I’m fortunate enough to be pretty financially secure.

    So AAM commenters, what do you think is the best course of action here? Right now I’m thinking of quietly job hunting and leaving a nasty Glassdoor review, but I am by no means an FMLA expert. I would love any advice anyone could give.

    1. fposte*

      I’m seeing what you’re seeing–they can do this if it’s goal-based, and I think you raise a legitimate question about whether it really is. It seems to me they’re asking for trouble to skip you entirely rather than giving you the low-end bonus instead.

      I would at least call to see if you can get a lawyer to talk to you for a free initial consult–you might be able to get one to write a nastygram for under three digits, which might be worth a try.

    2. Jen*

      Talk to HR and ask to see the policy, and get your manager involved. If s/he thinks you deserve a bonus, it’s his/her job to help you get it!

    3. Robbie*

      Didn’t look too promising today. Boss (he’s very young and just became a manager in the last six months) gave me a noncommittal “I’ll see what I can do but I don’t know, the department may have run out of budget for bonuses and raises” this morning. Really insulting, and now I have no desire to continue working here any longer than I have to. So I stepped out of the office to get a referral for a lawyer from the local bar association. At least it’s on the cheap.

      I’m uncomfortable about this because it sounds like someone way above me screwed up, and they’re probably going to be mad at me for bringing in the big guns to ensure that I simply get what I worked for. At least if it’s coming from someone above my boss (he’s 1 or 2 levels below the level where they have any input into budget and headcount), it’s less likely to damage any reference he gives.

      Would consider writing in to Alison with an update on this debacle but I think it’d be best to stay quiet about this now.

      1. Zahra*

        Is there anyone else at the company who has been away for a “significant amount of time” and received their bonus anyway? If so, I think you’ve got a strong argument in your favor. Look at the Fact Sheet 28A for FMLA:

        ” Any benefits that would be maintained while the employee is on other forms of leave, including paid leave if the employee substitutes accrued paid leave during FMLA leave, must be maintained while the employee is on FMLA leave.”

        Does a bonus qualify as a benefit?

  113. Not My Usual Name*

    I had an odd experience this week. After leaving my former company in less than steller circumstances, I have found a new job and things are going well.

    I was at a presentation this week and happened to meet a former co-worker and the person she introduced as “The new Not my Usual Name”. For some reason I felt a bit strange about it all. Has anyone else gone through this?

    For what it’s worth, I specifically talked about the presentation and former co-worker decided to bring up Oldjob news (namely who has left) without me asking.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve been through it. It can be a little annoying, but if you’re there long enough, you become No My Usual Name, and the other person becomes “The Old Not My Usual Name.”

    2. ACA*

      Now I feel guilty – when I was new at both my last and current jobs I’d sometimes introduce myself as “the new Kathy” or “the new Sarah.” I always did it so they would have context as to who I was organizationally, never to slight my predecessor.

  114. Stephanie*

    I need to get a professional headshot taken. Working on finding a professional photographer. I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for the photo?

        1. Laura*

          I would recommend checking out Yelp for good photographers. I had headshots taken by my work photographer and they were AWFUL! Good thing they ended up realizing I didn’t need my photo on the website. :)

          And hi from another Phoenix reader!

    2. Betty (the other Betty)*

      Take a good look at the photographer’s portfolio: do they take the kind of pictures you want? (Photographers are usually best at their specialty, so don’t hire someone who is mainly a wedding photographer to take professional headshots.)

      Do you want a studio photo or an outdoor photo? Will the time of day and weather cooperate? (NOT mid-day if you are shooting outdoors.)

      Does the photographer work with someone who will do your hair and makeup? (Not just for glamour shots! Good, subtle makeup can make a huge difference in a photo, so unless you are really good at doing your own makeup, it is worth having a stylist). Will that person also help you pick the right thing to wear if you bring a few options? Clothes and colors that look great in person may not be the best in a photo.

      Does the photographer edit the photo(s): Use Photoshop to correct color and minor imperfections?

      Read the contract! Are you allowed to use the photos for marketing, on the web, any other uses you might need? Will you get high resolution files for future use? Will the photographer use your photos in their portfolio (and are you ok with that)? How many different poses will be taken? How many different images will you receive at the end?

    3. the_scientist*

      I had headshots done for free at work and they…….weren’t great. When they’re small (like on LinkedIn or our intranet site or Skype) they’re okay but full-size? Not my best work. I hate getting my photo taken at the best of times and I definitely have a “good side” and a “not as good side”. The photographer would not allow me to have my good side turned to the camera so I have serious moonface in all the photos. Anyway, at least I didn’t pay for them.

      Do you have any friends who are amateur photogs? My boyfriend is a reasonably talented photographer with a prime lens and he’s done headshots for friends……..depending on what you’re using these pictures for, I wouldn’t really shell out money if you can avoid it. If appearance is a big part of your field (say model, actress) then defs hire a professional, but a student or an amateur can take a decent headshot for you. I’m also personally more comfortable being photographed by someone I know.

      Other tips:
      1) delicate re-touching can work wonders to even out skintone and hide blemishes- ask your photog if and what they will do. You obviously don’t want to be ‘shopped into a mannequin, though.
      2) wear a colour that you know flatters your skin tone, but that also reads well on camera. White or pastel colours look OK on me in person, for example, but terrible on camera.
      3) if you’re going to do your own makeup…..test out your “look” beforehand and take some pictures of yourself in natural light and indoors so you can see how it looks. Same with hairstyles.

      If you do hire a professional, read the contract carefully and make sure you fully understand what you’re getting for your payment.

      1. Stephanie*

        This is for a fellowship for grad school (see last week’s open thread). The sponsoring org needs a headshot for its materials and website. I wouldn’t say appearance is huge for this, but I think it’s going to get reused a lot.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      Echoing Other Betty…Find someone who is trained to do professional headshots and whose work looks the way you want to look.

      I’ve had headshots done by an “ordinary” studio photographer, where the directions were “sit here and smile”…and I’ve had headshots done by someone who specializes, and the output was night and day. With the specialist, I thought some of the poses she put me in were ridiculous but the pictures turned out fantastic. Yes, it matters how you hold your arms even if the photo itself is just collarbones and up (I apologize for the comparison but it’s kind of like porn in that getting it to look “right” on camera requires poses you’d never use in real life).

    5. Charlotte*

      I used Bryan Kinkade of Kinkade Photography for a previous event, and he also does professional shots. I’d recommend him if you like his style (check out his website). He’s very nice and was reasonably priced.

  115. Anon Moose*

    I posted my own job today. Its a good thing- I will be moving abroad to attend graduate school in four months and will be helping hire my replacement and hopefully train them before I leave if the timing works out.

    Here’s my question- as I do with many positions at my workplace, I posted it on several listservs that I’m part of. Often in the past, people on my listserv ask questions about the jobs, sometimes more connected people ask me to forward resumes. But since I’ll be a significant part of the hiring process for this job (though not the ultimate decision maker) and currently hold it, what’s the procedure for this? Should there be more hands-off? Obviously I wouldn’t push a connection over a more qualified person. But I want to make sure I remain professional.

  116. Want To Be A Data Scientist*

    Are there any Data Scientists in this crowd? How do you all define what you do and what was your background?
    I have an algorithm development background but off late have taken on some responsibilities at work that have me working on manipulating largish datasets for inputs and then interpreting largish datasets for results. I have no formal training but have been learning MySQL, Python and R on the fly and enjoying it.
    I have seen a few job postings on Linked In for work that seem like they would work for me but I am unsure of what the process will entail.

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      I tell the data scientists that I hire that I want them to be good at statistics + programming + visualization. Most can’t do all three perfectly, but they have to want to be good at all three. A solid background in statistics is probably the most important, followed by an understanding of programming (data structures, algorithms, experience with Python rather than C++).

  117. Bob*

    We are getting ready for our annual employee engagement survey. We always get a very poor response because nobody believes it is anonymous. We use a third party company but we all get unique links. Supposedly the results are only broken down by department unless you only have a few direct reports because then it would probably be obvious who said what. I’ve administered this type of thing at a previous job and we got a full report back with everyone’s names so I know it “can” be done that way.

    For those of you “in the know”, does your company have names matched with answers in your results?

    1. Bea W*

      My group did an anonymous survey sent, not of employees but of sites we work with. We hired a 3rd party to conduct the survey and present us with the results. It was technically anonymous. By that I mean we did not collect names of people or instititions as part of the survey and there was no way to match someone’s email with the unique link. However, it was possible in some cases to figure out which site or group of sites some responses came from by looking at the IP address/location. Some respondants were also very specific in the free text answers that they gave themselves away. “That is not how we do things at Teapots, Teapots, Teapots”.

      I’s say it was pretty anonymous but 100% so. The survey company did not give us any info on who responded or which links had been used. However, it’s not impossible to make some accurate educated guesses based on the answers and/or knowing the location or the job role (a question on the survey).

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Here and at my last organization, responses were only assigned to the department you selected within the survey, so no, nothing was connected to an individual name. The individual link was so that we could drill down on tracking — managers would know who had or hadn’t taken the survey, and at the center they could see that this or that group was underrepresented in the results.

      I think if you’ve got anxiety in your workplace about not being anonymous, that in itself is a pretty important indicator of employee engagement. If it were me, I’d be spending a lot of time there!

    3. S0phieChotek*

      My former company did them (retail) and had anonymous links but specific numbers to show we completed, which made all of us low-level think it was not so anonymous. Since the results were tied to individual stores (i.e. of national chain); even though the results were aggregated and presented to the managers (by outside party?) the manager blatantly tried to figure out who graded certain points in such a way to pull our score down in some areas. So…eh…depending on staff size and how the info is presented (in aggregate or individual comments)…I’m on the fence. Also depends on how specific the responds are–if they mention names or really specific projects or incidents…that also gives clues

    4. Katiedid*

      We have an annual survey that sounds very similar to yours (individual links, department breakdowns to a point, etc.). I do know that we don’t receive the individual results, although I agree that they could do so if we wanted them. I would think that the third party company probably has them, but we don’t.

      On that point, because of the individual links, many (most?) people do actually think the same as your company: that they aren’t really anonymous. Interestingly, it has the *opposite* effect on participation in our organization than yours: we have incredibly high participation. In what I’m sure is the related effect of that, we also have incredibly high results (as in, our average score is 20 percentage points+ more than the average of the provider’s other clients).

  118. Lost with Life*

    Certified Project Managers!

    Which certification route did you choose and why? Did you use an online or in-person option to meet the education requirements for certification. What vendors do you recommend/ not recommend?

  119. Dweali*

    Kinda of a long story but seeing if I’m handling this ok so far (also I’ll try to put a TLDR in)

    I work as an admissions person (the person at the front desk )in a psych hospital my major duties are: entering/correcting patient demographics, entering insurance, placing patients that are admitted into the bed once they head up to the admitting unit, answering phones, putting the account into the computer, signing/discussing consent forms with the patient /POA
    My minor duties are more hospitality oriented: offering drinks (water/coffee) to patients/family member that are in my area, re stocking the snack tray, pretty much doing just anything I can to make what can sometimes be really long wait comfortable for the patient

    Since I work 3rd shift I only make fresh coffee if 1 ) patient comes in and would like coffee to drink or 2) if I’m really tired…usually doesn’t hit me until 5 or 6 am

    In my area it’s generally just a host, counselor, and a security officer……none of us have any supervisory type duties over the other roles

    Last weekend my regular counselor was off so I was working with different one. I’ve worked with him maybe a handful of times, he can be kind of a condescending jerk and really was when he first started but has eased up somewhat (at least towards other counselors ). Usually he works the day shift and the coworker who relieves me always had an issue with him asking her to make him coffee and just in general act as his personal assistant. Up until last weekend and one other time I hadn’t had any issues with him…

    Now if there are patients in our area or the counselors are busy either with precertifing insurance or trying to reach the doctor on call and they ask me to grab them some coffee or water I don’t mind grabbing it, I get it they’re busy and they return the favor usually…to me that is just teamwork to keep things moving and this was the scenario the first time the counselor asked me to grab him a coffee.

    Last weekend we were really slow..hadn’t had anyone come in all night, one of those nights were we just get to chill…I was watching netflix he was watching motorcycles on youtube…so yeah completely dead…about 3-4 he calls and asks if I’ll grab him some coffee and donuts…I’m thinking he’s joking (especially because we don’t keep donuts in our area…I would have to spend my own money to get some from the vending machine) so I respond with yeah I’ll get right on that and go back to doing nothing…he comes out maybe 5 minutes or so later kind of does that loud huffy sigh and goes to start coffee…while it’s brewing he comes up to the desk and says “so this is how it’s going to be huh”…I have a blank second before I realize what he’s talking about and I say, “is this about coffee…is thought you were joking about that” he kind of starts back pedaling and says “oh yeah, of course, yeah I was joking. ..but, I mean, it would be nice…”

    Being in healthcare I know that certain positions are more female dominated so I don’t usually go into ‘your being sexist’ mode and even this time I’m not sure if it is so much sexist as it is that his time is more valuable since he is a counselor and I’m “just” an admissions person…but I’ve also asked one of my male counterparts and he’s worked with this counselor about the same amount of times I have and has never been asked to grab coffee for him.

    TLDR: male counselor has asked me (female) to grab coffee for him twice..once when he was legit busy (and I was ok grabbing it) and this last time when nothing was going on (thought he was joking/he wasn’t )

    So if/when I’m asked again by him I plan on telling him straight up that we are coworkers and I’m not a personal assistant, that if we’re busy I don’t mind grabbing it if I have time but to not expect me to do so when we have our really slow shifts….all diplomatically (still working on the wording though)….is this an ok approach?

    1. Sadsack*

      Definitely. I was reading along, hoping that you didn’t end up getting his coffee – so glad you didn’t! You should say exactly what you suggested in an unemotional tone and then turn back to what you were doing. It isn’t up for debate. Ignore him after that.

    2. LCL*

      Your last paragraph is fine. Repeat what you wrote here to him. When something like this comes up again, don’t resort to sarcasm, no matter how well deserved. I have tried in the distant past and it backfired spectacularly.

    3. Anonsie*

      Stay firm on this one. You start doing it because you don’t want to deal with the huff, and it’s your job forever. Trust me on this one.

      What you said is fine but, and it’s rare that I suggest being less direct, but going off his reaction to that incident I would try a different tack first if it were me. I don’t have a name for this but it’s supper effective on these guys in my experience: you just react like he’s an idiot. Not super condescending or hostile, but for example: he asks you to make coffee for him when he’s also unoccupied. You explain, as if he must be brand new and has no idea, that here we make our own coffee when we are free to do so. Okie dokie? Thanks buddy! :D :D :D

      This puts them in a position of having to be much more aggressive to push back, which they probably won’t do because they’re passive aggressive and weenieish. If you go “we’re coworkers and I’m not here to assist you” first, he’s likely to keep trying to pull some backbends for why it’s still your job over his all other things being equal, and that bend is sometimes going to be successful. So I’d go the “oh no, sweetie, that’s now how we do things” before going that way, if it were me.

      That said, your idea isn’t bad. I just think it gives him more hills to try to start battles on than just sort of not taking him seriously at all does.

        1. LCL*

          Be careful with the sarcasm/condescending route. Know your workplace before you try it. It can work great. If a co worker tried explaining something to me by reacting like I was an idiot, and explained it to me using words like Okie dokie, things would not go well. This is exactly what I am talking about when I say someone is using sitcom language. Again, this method can work excellently but be prepared for it to fail.

          1. Anonsie*

            The goal is to NOT be condescending or sarcastic, but acting very seriously as if you think the other person does not understand what’s going on or what’s expected from the ground up. The angle is “your request is so strange that I’m under the impression I need to help you out so you understand how to do this correctly.” As if they were new and rubbed improperly against your office’s Norma and you’re doing them a solid by letting them know that before it gets them in hot water.

            That’s why it’s a good tack and difficult for these types to rail against. You are being helpful, and reasonable, theoretically. It should only be brushing condescending in that you both know the offending party is well aware of this information already, but since they aren’t using that information you’re reminding them that they need to be.

    4. Sarah Nicole*

      I agree that as someone whose duty it is to do this for patients and visitors, it makes sense that when the doctors or other staff are busy, you can help them out by getting their coffee. Basically during those times, it sounds like it is part of your job description. But I totally think you’re in the right that if he is watching something on TV and has nothing going on, it’s a butthead request, because at that point it has nothing to do with work. I’d just say this: “Jim, I’m more than happy to help when things are really busy around here or if you’re working with patients, but when it’s slow, would you mind grabbing your own coffee and snacks?” I honestly wouldn’t even give a justification – it’s pretty normal to ask people to do things for themselves if they’re able. This is all assuming you can get away with saying that to someone in his position, but it sounds like no one is specifically supervising anyone and that you’re somewhat peers in this situation. I’ll tell you this, if one of my peers called me to bring him or her something when they were just hanging out, and THEN had the audacity to come by my office and give me crap about it, I’d shut that down pretty quickly.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I would state what the norm is that everyone goes by. And I would add that sometimes people make coffee for YOU if you are busy. Then close by saying, “just letting you know so you are aware.”

      The tricky part is how this plays out. Stick by your guns, if you are busy make sure you remind him of this conversation, if he balks.

  120. Bad Nickname*

    I’ve lost 3 jobs consecutively over the past 10 years. The first (5 years ago) was admittedly due to poor performance. The second was due to management realignment/downsizing. The latest (last month) was due to bad sales on my part, but without hesitation I can affirm that the company owner was nuts, and had unreasonable expectations. Two other people left 8 months into the job (we all started together), but I hung on so at least I had 1 year of the on my resume. Meanwhile I was actively searching and interviewing. I was ultimately let go at 15 months. My role has not been filled yet.
    Now I feel unemployable because three terminations DOESN’T LOOK GOOD. How can I get employers/recruiters to believe in my talent?

    1. katamia*

      You may have to get creative here. I graduated just as the recession was starting and have never gotten real traction in the work world partially due to that. (Also due to mental health and bad fit issues–I’m not blameless here–but the recession certainly didn’t help.) I’ve never been fired, but I followed the “Take a job, any job” advice for far too long, which did terrible things to my work history (I have zero references at this point). I have two pieces of advice for you:

      1) Look for nontraditional work, like WFH jobs, which in my experience tend to be less choosy in this regard and more skills-focused (i.e., if you show that can do the work they’re hiring for, they’re more likely to hire you even if you, like me, have a weird work history). You can also try freelancing doing work similar to what you were doing before if your expertise lends itself to freelance work.

      2) Really examine yourself and how you work best (regarding your poor performance in the past). For example, I’m generally a sprinter, not a marathoner, and I’m not very good at working at a steady pace. But put me in a room with a lot of work and a close deadline, and I’ll knock it out of the park. As much as you can, focus your applications on jobs where the work really plays to your strengths, whatever they may be.

      Good luck!

  121. Rafe*

    I work with an idiot who was hired as a senior X here but is really basically entry level. Which is fine, whatever. But it’s just astonishing the ridiculous things this person says on the phone with important people and it’s clear this person has no idea, not a clue, about even some basics of our field. It’s like, I don’t know how to give an example — it’s like someone supposedly a senior expert on the topic talking about “Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg” taking this or that position on the U.S. Supreme Court. Or calling a state lawmaker a congressman.

  122. First Time Anon*

    This might be a bit lengthy, but I will try to keep all the relevant information together.

    I’m working a job I started Temping at last May (May 2015). My contract was for 6 weeks, so I started job searching while working with this company (at night, not at work). 6 weeks come around and they keep extending my contract, telling me that they’re working on the budget but that they want to hire me.

    I hear nothing more until November 2015 when I’m called into a meeting. They blindside me with the hire paperwork and a salary offer, stating that they need me to sign now to be part of the company. Seeing the figures are higher than what I had made at my previous job (long story), I accepted because it was a fair rate for what they hired me for (they had told me the position prior and I did some research).

    December 2015, they tell me that I’m “changing” positions from Admin to Asst. Operations Manager. I will be temporarily covering for another Ops Mgr. while they’re out on disability.

    January 2016, I get assigned all of their markets permanently, and my workload triples because I am also still the Admin and they’re having me open a new market. My title is still Asst. Ops Mgr, but I’m doing all of the work of a regular Ops Mgr on top of any other projects I get on the side PLUS my work as Admin. I am working 12 hours days most of the time, and there is no OT in my contract which has my working hours from 8:00am-5:00pm (8 hour day with 1 hour lunch).

    Now it is almost May, and I’ve only recently gotten a replacement Admin. I had to train the replacement (which was fair) on top of everything else. Now I’m back down to 9 hour days (9 hours minus my 1 hour lunch), but because the Admin is still new I’m having to double check everything they do on top of running my markets.

    My Director is also somewhat… Forgetful? Combative? The Director forgets they have told other people things, or when they are called out on something (if you have an email where the Director said the thing they “forgot”) they become accusatory and deny the possibility that they have made a mistake. For instance, something I had to submit to a client was 100% okayed by my Director, through email and verbally. But when the client came back ranting and raving about how we submitted the wrong thing, the Director turned around and told the client that I was the one who made the mistake, that I was incompetent, etc. I can understand saving company face through this maneuver, but the Director never apologized to me or acknowledged that they were in the wrong about it so I felt like a punching bag on two counts. Instances like this have happened multiple times.

    There’s the backstory. Now onto my questions:

    1. When would it be appropriate to ask for a raise/promotion? They are keeping me as an Asst. Manager which means my salary is below the amount of work I’m doing (by roughly $10k-$15k, I’ve been researching). I have breached the subject of possibly becoming a full Ops Mgr, and my Director has only said “maybe after a two-month trial period” (but I’ve been doing this full time since January). My official hire date is November 2015.

    2. Though I enjoy what I do (mostly) and get along with (most of) my coworkers, I feel underappreciated and like I could be in a less-stressful environment elsewhere for better pay. Would it be time to start looking for a new job? What is the protocol for this?

    Thank you for reading this lengthy post and for any advice you may have!!

    1. Amy S*

      Since your official date of hire was in November, are you do for a semi-annual review any time soon? That might give you an opportunity to make your case for a raise. Otherwise I think if it’s been several months and your workload has increased drastically, you have the right to ask to meet with your director and discuss this with him.

      I personally believe in trying to stick around at a job for at least a year, preferably 18 months if possible. If you feel like you’re about to lose your mind, you should start your job search. Otherwise try to hang in there a bit longer if you can.

      1. First Time Anon*

        I think this company only does annual reviews. I have discussed my increased workload with the HR representative to ask how to approach the situation as well. HR agrees that I have earned the full title and the pay raise (but they said if I have to pick, it’s up to me; I’m gunning more for title for my resume at this point). I do want to stay here fore more than a year. It’s a good job with decent benefits, but it just feels like there’s no room for advancement– even from Asst. Ops Mgr. to Ops Mgr. And the 9-12 hour days are pretty draining, especially with the commute (1 hour each way). I don’t get to take lunch most days either with the workload, which I don’t mind as much, but then that means I’m working 10-13 hours. The other Ops Mgrs, let’s call them Alex and Barbara, work 8 hour days because they do not have dual roles and don’t have to open a brand new market.

        Would it be appropriate to update my resume with all that I do now at least? Maybe not send it out, but make it reflect me as an Ops Mgr rather than just an assistant?

  123. Bea W*

    After all that to-do with moving us up to another floor and scattering my team about because someone was moving into our space, no one actually moved into our space. It is vacant. This was expected, because “someone is moving onto your space” is the standard excuse fed to anyone who pushes back against nonsense moves. Then the space sits vacant for 6 months or longer. SMH.

  124. Mimmy*

    One last thing, a quick resume question:

    I’ll be earning an Advanced Certificate in Teapot Studies in June. Is “Advanced Certificate” a recognized designation? The courses are graduate level and are also offered to those going for the full Masters in Teapot Studies. All of my classes were online, but there are also in-person courses offered for those who live local to the school.

    As background, I already have a professional Masters and a BA.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I was going to say it depends on what “Teapot Studies” is IRL but I’ve changed my mind and I’m going to go with: I think if it were significant in your industry, you’d already know that.

      1. Mimmy*

        IRL, the certificate is in Disability Studies. It’s an emerging degree but still relatively uncommon. It’s not applied like social work or special education–it looks at disability in society and draws from a variety of disciplines, such as sociology, law and liberal arts, but some schools have semi-applied courses–I took one course this past fall that was specifically about postsecondary education students with disabilities.

    2. Anon Moose*

      I mean, why not? Its one line, it may mean something to somebody and others may not even notice. But I can see no situation where taking credit for an extra certificate would hurt you in a job. If they were looking for something like that and you left it off, they never know.

  125. Roza*

    I have a question about managing multiple managers. I work at a small research and consulting firm and am typically working on 3-5 different projects each with its own manager. One of these is “my” manager, in that she’s the one who does performance reviews, sorts out my time for other managers, etc. Sometimes she is also the manager of one of my projects, sometimes she isn’t. Because we’re on billable hours, I have a certain number of hours allocated to specific projects each week. Most managers are respectful of their “allotment”, but there are a couple who seem to think that having me assigned to the project means that they can make unlimited requests/call at any time/etc. They insist I do their work first thing in the week, which I do, then they have new sets of questions based on the results of whatever analysis I did. Complicating this is the fact that I have some specific technical skills that are both highly in demand on projects but also poorly understood, so what the manager thinks is a ” quick” bit of additional analysis is often anything but. I try to loop in “my” manager on emails and such so that she knows when things are getting out of hand, but the offending managers often go around her by not cc-ing her or by calling me. One in particular is fond not only of calling, but of then asking me to share my screen and do the additional analysis while he watches and asks questions. It’s not that he doesn’t trust me–he’s just very curious and excited about the project, but doesn’t know how to do the programming to do the analysis himself. He’s also one of the higher-ups at a company I’ve been with less than a year. I want to be helpful, but it’s getting ridiculous. It’s also interfering with my ability to meet deadlines on other projects. Lately I’ve been getting everything done by working lots of overtime, but it isn’t sustainable.

    I think that problems of both juggling multiple managers and of getting frequent unreasonable requests when you’re a technical specialist are pretty common. So what’s worked for you when looping in your manager isn’t enough?

    1. SRB*

      Oh hey, you sound like me. :) Pretty much the exact same industry and environment. I do data analysis on Leviathan data sets, and there are many requests I get that are like “oh, hey, can you just like, walk into Mordor by COB today?” and I’m like “ONE DOES NOT SIMPLY WALK INTO MORDOR.”

      I find that giving estimates of hours is really effective in a job where you’re billable and the budgets are limited. Here, they send out a sheet monthly that says “this is how many billable hours you have on these projects for the month, don’t spend more without asking”. Then, whenever I get a request to do something unusual, I usually say “I can do that – it will take X hours” and/or “and I will start it after I finish Y for Gandalf, which is due to the client at COB today, so your Mordor report will be done on Friday”. Sometimes that results in “Nevermind, it’s not important enough to spend that many hours on” or “I need it sooner, so I’ll ask Percival to do it instead”.

      Rarely, I’ll get “oh it’s fine if you bill more than budgeted hours – I just need this done”. Except that I’m perpetually 110% billable. In which case I point to that, and then point them to my other project managers and tell them they can start Mortal Kombat for my hours next month if they want.

      I do also keep my “manager manager” in the loop if something is getting out of control, but I find the above is way more effective. Keeping him in the loop is more of a CYA than a strategy to get things changed.

      1. SRB*

        Also, let your manager manager and your project manager know any time you work “overtime” without billing to the project. Even if they think they’re getting “free” work out of you, it just skews their expectations of what is possible on proposals for future work and results in perpetually burned out staff. Not just you, but anyone who ends up on a skewed project like that. Plus, it may be against the rules of the contract with the client. So that too. :)

    2. Jules the First*

      Have you tried just pushing back? Say something like ‘Hey Fergus, I’m happy to help out, but this is more than a five minute question and you’ve already used up your allocated 6 hours this week. Shall we schedule a sit down to go through this on Monday when I’ll have more time?’

      The other option is to proactively approach Fergus one week and say something like ‘I’m trying to balance my priorities for the next month and I was hoping you could spare a few minutes to discuss your needs so I can make sure you get a reasonable allocation.’

      And the final option (an Alison solution!) – ask your manager! ‘Hi Jane, I’ve noticed that Fergus frequently needs things done quickly and after he’s used up his weekly allocation. How would you like me to handle those requests?’

  126. LabMonkey*

    How do you job search when the problem with your job is the hours? I regularly start before dawn and work 12+ hours, I don’t have consistent days off (let alone a weekend), and I’m exhausted all the time from it. How do you get out when just surviving feels like a victory?

    Not (only) whining: tips, advice, please!

    1. Anon Moose*

      One time-saver for the actual search part: Set up job search alerts for specific searches. Set up several if you have different interests or could do either pt or full time for example. I did this on idealist.org. Several sites have this feature where they can run your search at least once a day and send results to you via email. Other sites you may be able to use a site like IFTTT to set up your own alerts from a search – I do this a lot for craigslist searches for example. Then go through the list quickly when you do have time off/ when you’re on break and mark out the best fits to actually apply to in your limited time.
      As far as being exhausted, I hear you. I think you just have to soldier on if you really want to leave. Save your pto for interviewing.
      Good luck!

    2. Michael Scott*

      Take a sick/mental health day. Seriously. Sleep in a little then knock off as many applications as you can. Sounds like you need it.

      Or, take it in bits: take a cat nap when you get home from work, curl up on the sofa if you need to, then give yourself 10-15 minutes to search, work on an application, resume, etc. before calling it a night. Every time you are able to get something done on your job search, consider it a small victory beyond survival.

      Good luck!

  127. Kyprea*

    Has anyone here worked as a bank teller and then moved on to another field? My partner is a customer service rep in a local branch, and he’s hoping to get out of the field–but he doesn’t know where his banking skills might translate well. What did you do after your banking gig?

  128. Wendy Darling*

    Part advice request and part rant: Any advice for impressing upon people that the operative word in “working from home” is WORKING?

    I’m having issues with my parents acting like because I’m at home I’m not busy. They haven’t started just dropping by (yet…) but I’ve been at my work-from-home job for two whole weeks and they’ve both taken up calling me “to ask a quick question” and wanting to chat for 30+ minutes (also the question is not quick and not time sensitive).

    I was initially hesitant to just not pick up the phone because they’re both in iffy health and do have occasional emergencies, but that’s kind of my plan at this point since “I’m working, I can’t talk right now” doesn’t work unless I hang up immediately after saying it.

    I think mostly I’m just ticked off that they apparently don’t respect my job because I’m not in an office. This literally never happened when I had an office job — they knew I wasn’t available 9am-6pm so they didn’t call unless it was an emergency.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have you been direct? As in, “Hey, even though I’m working at home now, my availability is the same as when I worked in an office, which means that I can’t take calls during the day unless it’s an emergency”?

      1. Wendy Darling*

        So far I’ve done “I’m working right now so I can’t talk” but I’ll try that next time, since my way is not effective!

    2. MaggiePi*

      Maybe not ideal, but I’ve also handled this with answering the phone with a very frazzled sounding, “What’s wrong?” or “Is everything okay?” strongly implying that of course you wouldn’t call me during the work day unless it was an emergency. When they say, “Just calling to say hi” or “ask a quick q” follow up with “Oh, {relived sigh} I thought since you were calling me during work that is was some kind of emergency.”
      Works with my mom, as she just seems to forgot from time to time and this is enough of a reminder. But I know it wouldn’t for everyone.

      1. MaggiePi*

        And I am usually truly nervous it could really be something bad! (It’s been an eventful year for my family.)

        1. Wendy Darling*

          Yeah, I had two years where every six months or less, one parent or the other had to be hospitalized — and with MAJOR stuff. It’s extreme luck/a minor miracle that they’re both mostly still capable of functioning independently. So when they call me I get kind of nervous!

          Of course then it’s just my dad asking what phone to buy, or my mom telling me something I already knew. Sigh.

    3. Shell*

      I basically just say “sorry mom/dad, in the middle of something, is this an emergency? No? I’ll call you back tonight” and hang up right after. It took a few repetitions, but it sank in eventually since I was willing to hang up right after.

      Admittedly I haven’t had firsthand experience from this (I’ve never had a work-from-home job), but I treat it the same way as I did with homework during my school years: I’m home, but I’m busy because I’m in the middle of doing this chem problem set/English essay/lab report/whatever and short of a five alarm emergency, you’re disrupting my train of thought. I’d hear them out long enough to determine 1) it wasn’t an emergency and 2) it wasn’t going to be quick and I’d cut them off with the above verbiage and hang up.

      Yes, it’s a little brusque, but of all the rude moments I had toward them during those years (we bring up my terrible attitude during my dorm years from time to time…I really was a nightmare then), hanging up over homework is not one that they mention/hold against me.

    4. Kenzie*

      I don’t work from home full time (2 days/week) and my mom does this as well. I agree with AAM about being direct. Or saying something along the lines of “oh well this isn’t urgent so ill call you back after 5, gotta go!”

    5. Beezus*

      My in-laws don’t respect my job because I’m in an office. They come from a different background and they assume that all white collar jobs involve a lot of goofing off time. It took several years of turning down invites for things in the middle of the day, requests to take an impromptu day off with almost zero notice, phone calls during work hours, etc. for them to just stop bugging me during my work time.

      Then last year, both of my in-laws had some health issues and needed help with meals, around the house, etc., and we were all taking turns, and it took another round of training to get my sisters-in-law to stop calling me to coordinate in the middle of the gorram work day. (I once had 4 missed calls and 2 text messages on two separate phones during a 2-hour meeting because my sister in law had a grocery question. For a moment I thought someone had died.)

  129. ClairefromLondon*

    Any advice on how to handle this situation?
    About a year and a half ago I found a new great new job, good benefits and lovely colleagues doing an admin-related job for a small academic organisation. My predecessor was going to backpack in Asia and leaving the city, so I was able to rent his old apartment from his landlord , after he left as well. Fast forward 18 months, everything is going very well, when I get an email from John, demanding to know why I had instituted some changes on the website, telling me he was back in the country and was going to come visit soon. I was a little unnerved and discussed the matter with my boss who said: “Yes, John, had gotten in touch; the subtext being that John would like to have his old job back.” I admitted I had gotten the same sense and he looked at me and said: “You’re staying. Don’t worry about it.”
    Yesterday John turns up unannounced, dressed for an interview, demands a reckoning about the changes I had instituted (I politely ended the conversation at that point), hung about trying to get hold of the boss. Boss, unimpressed, makes his decision about me staying clear to the entire admin department. John has left to parts unknown.
    Now the actual question: John and I work in the same admin-related field and it’s quite a small world. How do I best handle it when we run into each other again?

      1. ClairefromLondon*

        After my boss’s reassurances and public comment, the whole thing seems funnier to me than it seemed at the time, but yes, living in his own parallel little world, is my theory on John.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Act like he didn’t come back and go all crazy pants. Stay away from the drama and only engage in polite conversation with him. If he offers up bait, walk away.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Wow. I wouldn’t worry about running into him again because he dug his own grave by his actions. Just be icily polite or barely civil and then make your escape from him. I recently saw a coworker who did something very crappy to me before she left two years ago. She acted all happy to see me and asked me questions about the job. I answered her questions politely and then just kind of stared off into the distance until she got uncomfortable and slunk away.

      1. ClairefromLondon*

        Yes, he’s burned his bridges locally. Well done on your old coworker, I find it amazing what people seem to ignore or forget about what they did and it’s likely impact on others.

    4. Delyssia*

      I may be paranoid, but I’d check into whether or not the landlord changed the locks after John left.

      1. ClairefromLondon*

        He did. I also made sure to sweetly point out that hte landlord was currently on holiday in Australia and therefore unavailable. (I was polite, I was certainly not nice).

    5. Schnapps*

      Be professional, be courteous, be polite. Greet him and say how do you do? Talk about the weather, the state of the industry, and solve the world’s problems, superficially.

      How he behaves is up to him.

  130. Another Recent Grad*

    First time poster here. This weeks comments on Wednesday’s letter regarding the nephew debacle really gave me the push to leave my toxic (well toxic to me) workplace. However, I have only been at this position for four months. I am trying to apply for other positions, but have no idea how to explain why I leaving my current position. There are several reasons I am leaving: hours that are given to other staff members even though I do more work that they refuse to due (I am part-time with no benefits; and since we are in healthcare, it is not like I can just refuse to do work since other co-workers always complain to me when it is not done), dealing with difficult customers that they palm off to me and lack of cross training opportunities.

    I know four months would be too early for cross training, but not at my job. I have talked to my manager about this, but I was told we were too short-staffed, which I understood. BUT, my co-workers (the slackers) were cross trained in other areas. I tried to talk to my manager again and even offered alternatives, but was quickly refused. I am upset about this, especially since I have a language skill set that is demand and yet, I was overlooked for training opportunities even though I have informally done the work with my manager’s approval. The reason I accepted this position was due to the cross training, flexibility (especially since I am trying to go back to school) and experience, but I feel taken advantaged of. This has been noted by other co-workers who have in confidence told me it is unfair, especially since the slackers are getting more opportunities, hours, etc. I am ready to leave, but have no idea how to explain why.

    1. Another Recent Grad*

      I forgot to add, I am concerned about appearing like a job hopper. I have been only done a year long internship and a 6 month internship before this position. I also asked about cross training, compensation, etc before accepting the job, but I think I was mislead as there is low morale and have recently found out, raises are non-existent.

    2. TootsNYC*

      “part-time with no benefits”
      and
      “not as many hours as I’d like”

      Look for full-time work, and few people will think twice.

      I don’t think I’d say “other people are getting hours and I’m not,” bcs if I heard that, I might think it was an indicator that you weren’t that good or that reliable.

  131. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

    What do you think of employee motivation/rewards programs? I work at a small liberal arts college, and recently, HR implemented a program wherein they gave out a number of $10 gift cards to be used anywhere on campus, for performance “above and beyond the call of duty.” I work in the library, and I got one a couple of weeks ago for investigating an issue with a call number on a book.

    I have this coworker, Wakeen. Wakeen barely functions in the job, can’t remember how to do anything (or won’t), doesn’t talk to anyone. We can’t fire him because his mother is a big brass at this college. Yesterday, Wakeen received one of these gift cards. Why? Because a sink overflowed in the ladies room and he called maintenance. In my boss’s words, “You could have emailed me about it or just let it go, but you took initiative.”

    Ummm…What the What?! This guy deserves praise because he called maintenance? Does he deserve praise because he actually shows up for work, too?

    Is this part of that society thing where kids get trophies for just being on the team?

    Somehow I feel like MY gift card is worth less because apparently they’re giving them out for just about anything.

    My hubby says this is just a workplace gimmick and pay no attention whatsoever.

    What say you?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I agree with both you and your hubby. It’s annoying and crappy, but it’s probably not worth your time to get mad about since stuff like that is super gimmicky.

    2. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      Panem et circenses. It’s a BS distraction from other problems. Like failure to manage, lack of raises or small ones, etc. Though I’m not sure what’s worse, giving them out like they’re cheap candy or hoarding them so they are as rare as a unicorn like they do at my company.

    3. LCL*

      Given my experiences at the large bureaucracy, I’d say he deserved the card. Here, if something is busted, there is a lot of ‘ not my job to notify anyone’ attitude regarding facilities issues. Along with, when the problem is finally fixed weeks later but is really ASAP as soon as facilities received the report, criticism that ‘It’s been 3 weeks and nobody’s done anything!!!’ talk.

      1. LCL*

        …and I just walked into a common room that had a post it note on the front that said ‘broken phone’. This hasn’t been reported anywhere else that I am aware of. Certainly not to the department that actually fixes these problems.

    4. KR*

      I think the important thing to consider is that going above and beyond means different things to different people. To someone who always does the bare minimum, the fact that he was proactive and called maintenance is a good step in the right direction for him and your boss wants to reward that probably and let this coworker know that it was appreciated. To you, going above and beyond was investigating that call number.
      We have similar things at my retail job where we can give 2$ and 5$ coupons to associates for any reason we see fit. Sometimes if an associate has had trouble with their attitude, we’ll give them a coupon for smiling and being friendly to the customers because for them, that’s a good first step in the right direction and if we reward that and they start doing it all the time, then we can work on the higher level things. For associates that are always friendly to customers and know how to have a good attitude, we won’t generally reward them for just that but if they do something that for them is above and beyond, that’s when they get a coupon.

  132. Amber Rose*

    I’m just fed up with my job. I understand that things change. I understand I’m lucky to have a job when thousands have been laid off. And I know it’s only been a year. But. Ugh.

    I was hired to do document packages and general tracking stuff, to which they added marketing and safety stuff cuz I had the time.

    Now I’m sales. Primarily sales. I HATE sales. I never would have taken this job if I knew it was sales. I struggle with ongoing fear of phones/phone anxiety and I freeze up when people ask me questions about stuff. I’m crap at sales.

    But I’m still also docs, accounts receivables, marketing, safety and QA/QC, with a side of outside sales support and shipping. And when I commented that it was difficult to balance I was told to focus on sales, the worst part of my job.

    Next year I’m job hunting. Small companies and I do not get along.

    1. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

      I feel your pain. I hate sales too. I don’t mind answering telephones but I could never try and sell anything over the phone.

      Best of luck to you in your search!

    2. EE Lady*

      That happened to me once when I was in my 20s working for a large cell phone company with thousands of employees. I was in the store doing customer service and they moved me to sales. I quit not long after. I totally sympathize! Do you get a ton of anxiety about it? I did.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I do have a ton of anxiety about it. And it’s ramping now that my boss wants me to maybe learn purchasing too.

        I think I need to leave but it’s only been a year. My last two jobs never hit 2 years either. And the job market sucks.

    3. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      Why wait until next year? “Why did you leave your job after only a year?” “It morphed into sales. I’m not a sales person.”

      1. Amber Rose*

        My last two jobs were one and just under two years respectively. The second one wasn’t my fault, it was a family business and the owner died suddenly and everything went to hell. But I’m wary of being labelled a job hopper.

        1. ClairefromLondon*

          That’s also easily explained: “Why did you leave?” “Owner died”, is a very legitimate reason to move on, as is “Job not what was advertised and sales are not my strong suit.” It’s not job hopping, if your environment changes, you’re responding rationally to radical organisational changes.
          Maybe you could reframe your recent work history as gaining varied experience, which has taught you that you want to work in a larger company (that isn’t completely dependent on one person as in your last job) and that you want a job in an admin related field and not in sales as you have in your current job.
          I know it feels very unfair to have your job be redefined by your employer, but it does not reflect on you, you took the job in good faith and would have done well in it as it was originally advertised. They’ve turned it into something else, for which you do not have the skillset and mindset that would allow you to feel happy doing it. That is not on you.

          1. Carrie in Scotland*

            Is staying for another year worth not being happy? It’s a long time to not be happy in a place where you spend most of your time at. I know Alison cautions against job hopping but your other jobs have legitimate reasons for being the length they are.

          2. Terra*

            The explanations require getting to the interview stage though, which can be tricky with three short stints on your resume. I wouldn’t discourage AmberRose from starting to look now on the off chance she finds something amazing but more likely it’s going to be an issue.

            1. Carrie in Scotland*

              Well sure – or on an application that asks, you can say “owner died, company dissolved” or whatever the reason is.
              TBH, hardly anyone asks me why I left my last job. I’ve had interviews recently and I only recall one doing so (prior to moving).

              My point being, Amber (or anyone else) shouldn’t feel as if waiting another year “just to not look like a job hopper” is the only option.

  133. seashell*

    Probably too late for any answers but a coworker who sits near me uses a strange mix of baby oil and hand sanitizer every time he returns to his cubicle and it REEKS of pure rubbing alcohol. Some days I notice it, sometimes not, sometimes like today it is so pungent I feel it right between my eyeballs. I’m not the only one who notices the scent. What would you do?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Get that stuff that morticians put under their nostrils…

      I’m so sorry you have to deal with that.

  134. EE Lady*

    I got a phone call on my birthday earlier this week from a lady who works at the company who holds and services my mortgage. She made sure she was speaking to me and then she sang me the happy birthday song (!) and told me happy birthday and hung up. WHOSE IDEA WAS THIS? Does anyone think that’s a good idea??

    1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under A.A., B.S.*

      Well, it’s not the worst idea. Unless you don’t want to be reminded or don’t celebrate. Does make me wonder if she lost an office bet though. :)

    3. Amy S*

      I’m sorry but I find this kind of hilarious… ridiculous and unprofessional, but also hilarious.

      2. EE Lady*

        I thought it was hilarious too after the fact – it was so forced and awkward, I was stunned while it was happening. Afterwards though, I had a good laugh while I tried to imagine the meeting where they decided that was a good customer retention strategy. BTW, I had never spoken to this woman in my life prior to this interaction.

    5. Is it spring yet?*

      I don’t like this type of thing. My dentist has had robo calls and e-mails wishing us a Happy Birthday. (funny when the program always pronounces my daughter’s name wrong) I think it’s all part of someone’s idea of good marketing/retention/customer service. I just want you to do your job and be able to answer my questions.

    6. katamia*

      I do not think that’s a good idea. Our old car insurance company did send postcards on our birthdays, but that’s way less intrusive and weird than what happened to you.

      But this also made me laugh, so thank you for that.

    7. Crystal Vu*

      I do *not* like vendors wishing me happy birthday. It’s a business relationship; quit trying to “personalize” it. If you provide good service, I will be a happy customer. It’s that simple.

  135. matilda*

    I’m working on a grad degree that I need to enter a new (but related) field. The profession has a really active national email listserv and yesterday, someone posted that they were about to give a presentation on job seeking in the field, and asked for everyone’s input. The responses were so disheartening! Things like… you need to look up my name and include it on your cover letter, even if I don’t include it in my job posting (anything else means you’re lazy and your resume is going in the “no” pile); if you apply for a job without the minimum qualifications, then you’re disrespectful and wasting my time; don’t take the bait when I ask you trick questions in the interview.

    It was pretty much an all-star list of everything Alison says that only bad hiring managers do. I’m wondering if the difference is that my (future) field is small, so many of the hiring managers have been at their organizations for a relatively long time and might not have the frame of reference to understand how things are changing.

    The one that really got to me was the person who said not to overstate your qualifications. This is fully reasonable, obviously. But, she went on to write about how she tosses applications of those who say they “managed” anything as an intern. That’s apparently impossible and immediately discredits you… even though unpaid internships have largely replaced entry-level jobs. I totally have something like that on my resume, and it’s a huge (and true) accomplishment, and the organization was incredibly grateful…and apparently it might be discrediting me left and right. Does anyone here believe interns unilaterally don’t or can’t manage projects? I’d like to hear your thoughts!

    1. EE Lady*

      We had interns at my previous job at a research lab who would be given responsibility for setting up new test equipment from beginning to end, which can be complicated if the equipment is large and needs to be hooked up to facility power, or dry or liquid nitrogen lines, etc. The interns would also be responsible for setting up and performing new experiments. It would take a tremendous amount of planning and thought and they were only very lightly supervised and helped from time to time. But the interns would own their projects.

    2. Anon Moose*

      Ugh. Well, the reality is there’s going to be bad managers in every field. And people with different hiring practices/ ridiculous “don’ts”. (And I don’t think bad at hiring necessarily means bad at managing in general, right?) I would take anything on a listserv with a bit of a grain of salt- unless they’re people you’ll be applying for jobs with of course and then you might have a leg up. Its their opinion, but is it truly the norm in the field is what I’m saying. Or maybe there just isn’t a norm? Following AAM seems to show me that norms vary widely in hiring.

  136. TootsNYC*

    I work at a company that makes a lot of teapots, and each color/type of teapot has its own teams, in very parallel structures.

    So I have several counterparts (I’m in something like Quality Control).

    Today I sent out an email suggesting all us QC department heads get together once a month,a nd picking a date to have lunch somewhere casual.

    So far, I’m getting lots of yeses and a few “thanks for organizing” comments. I’m so tickled!
    I think we can be a great resource for one another, plus it will be fun to have other QC nerds to know.

    Another bonus for me: it raises my corporate profile (bcs I’d discussed this as an option w/ an HR person, who thought it was a great idea, and I bcc’d her on the email). if they ever start consolidating QC departments, hopefully the corporate types will think I’m someone to keep around. Maybe even to include in the “how to do it” discussions.

    I thought about saying to people, “bring one thing to share–an example of a great process you’ve created, your latest pet peeve in QC, or any questions you’ve struggled with” but then decided that was too controlling. We’ll just have lunch and say hello.
    I can sound people out to see if they want to have things like that (best software shortcut; best addition to the QC manual; etc.), or just let stuff bubble up organically.
    I’m afraid if it gets too structured people won’t want to come; but also if it’s just social, it may not be worth people’s time.

    Wish me luck! (I did something similar at an old company, but it didn’t last long because I was too busy to keep it going, and other people didn’t step up.)

  137. coffee or tea*

    Asking for a third party: “Ted” was cc’d on an e-mail response from co-worker “Nancy” to a 3rd party. Nancy wrote that she was unable to help the 3rd party but that Ted would be able too. Ted looked at the time stamp of the original message from 3rd party and it was from January. This was the first response the 3rd party had received regarding the original request. Nancy has on occasion talked about how she is unable to answer half of the emails or messages she receives. Ted and Nancy’s manager is at a different location several hours away. Should Ted notify their manager to let him know this happened? This is the only instance that Ted is aware of, on the other hand because of her comments he is concerned that this might be happening more frequently and feels their manager should know. Any advice is appreciated.

    1. Sadsack*

      If I were Ted, I wouldn’t say anything to my manager unless the person making the request becomes upset with Ted for some reason.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I think I might say something. In the “I’m alerting you to something I’ve seen that you haven’t.”

  138. Miss M*

    I have a co-worker, he turns in shoddy paperwork and when I request corrections he balks and sulks like a petulant child. I try to be as nice as I can, but he’s rude and snippy to me when all I am trying to do is ensure that Tea Services occur on time and in the correct space. He used to be a sales manager but accepted a demotion to stay employed. He is kind and charming to my fellow clerks, the clerk who processes Tea Service contracts and the clerk who processes Teapot Orders and Installation. I want to knock all of this up to me being an overly sensitive person, but it is sometimes an impediment to Tea Service Scheduling. Should I approach my manager with these concerns? She isn’t his manager, but could bring it to his Sales Manager (when I have brought things up to the Sales Manager on my own, I was ignored with an insincere “Oh I’ll talk to Fidel”)

    1. Sadsack*

      If his having to make corrections is impacting turn around time, you might say something. Otherwise, I’d just let him sulk and ignore him, as long as he is doing what you asked. I wouldn’t respond at all to his balking except to say, “Thanks, I’ll take it back as soon as it’s corrected!” and then turn back to my work. Don’t feel compelled to say sorry for asking. Just be matter-of-fact about what you need. Eventually, he may not bother with the sulking because it’s having no affect on you. If you are considering talking to your boss about how his work is causing you to take extra time, you might want to tell him first. Especially if he seems to be making the same type if mistakes repeatedly.

      1. Sadsack*

        And by tell him, I mean tell him what you need him to do differently, not that you are going to tell you manager. Just wanted to make that clear.

  139. LanLinesareLosers*

    I have been working with HR about a bonus that was promised to me when I accepted the job that has fallen off the face of the planet. It was not in writing but neither was my job offer. HR recently made a mistake that resulted in my salary being reduced $15,000 so they have promised to ‘look into” this bonus issue.

    It has been a month and I have not heard anything despite sending follow-up requests to inquire about the status.

    Should I bump this up the chain in HR? Should I start by informing my current boss of the problem?

    I am also curious what people think I should about having my salary slashed $15K if I plan to stay here. It’s a small town and I can not afford to burn this bridge.

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      I would definitely raise it with my current manager. If she likes you and wants to keep you, she’s going to be in favor of getting you what you were promised. Do you have notes about the who and when of the conversation? (And is that $15k mistake fixed now?)

      1. LanLinesareLosers*

        Yeah. Basically my new salary after accepting the position became $15K less. It was a huge bummer to say the least.

        The promised bonus, which is only $1,000 now also seems like it is going to be “a mistake” and I just can’t see them shafting me over a measly $1,000 after already slashing my salary.

        I was told I handled the salary slashing, very, very well.

    2. TootsNYC*

      $15,000 is one heckuva lot of money.

      HR should flat-out be fixing that mistake. And you should be job hunting.
      and then cordially say, “I’m so sorry to leave so soon, but having my salary cut by $15,000 was simply not something I could afford.”

      1. LanLinesareLosers*

        Did you read the EvilHRLady’s post on “Stop being cheap! Why saving on salary is costing you big time!”

        That is practically exactly what happened to me, except my salary was cut the day before I started.

  140. Anonsie*

    So… Tell me how to proceed without destroying all the good will I may have.

    I have an impossible workload. And by impossible I mean, it requires me to be doing conflicting things in the same time slots so no amount of extra effort can make large parts of it work. But the amount of extra effort necessary to keep afloat, ignoring those, has gone far past reasonable. The expected time attached to my assignments is in excess of 100 hours a week, which is not normal in my field in the slightest. On top of that, the people whose projects I’m assigned to (internal clients) are never made aware of this, so they think that when they are granted (let’s say) one day a week of support from me that that time is actually blocked off for them. It’s not. No one ever tells them this. So they have been more that a little surprised recently when I’ve had to tell them my workload means I can’t help them as soon as they may want or need.

    I have already tried spelling out this situation to management, directly, with exact figures and examples, multiple times. Their response is always to drop everything except whatever they consider priority #1 at that moment (read: whatever client is angry at that moment), which doesn’t help. They want me to just rotate who I help somewhat arbitrarily, guaranteeing that literally everyone will be neglected and unhappy. On top of that, they refuse to actually communicate any of their decisions to our clients, leaving me to try to diplomatically say “my boss told me to drop everything and ignore the deadline we established because someone else needed something at the same time and they asked louder.”

    At this point I am extremely concerned with preserving my professional reputation and ability to get references later. Management has taken me for a whiny complainer at this point, so I’m mostly concerned with not leaving a ton of clients here whose impression of me is that I never do what I’m supposed to. I have told a couple of the ones I trust to be discrete where this is coming from, but it’s quite impossible to tell everyone because there is no kind way to say “my boss promised you something she had no intention of giving you and is instructing me to not follow through right now.”

    I did once try telling people to talk to management about their concerns hoping the flood of people wanting to know why their agreements were not being kept would help, but what it actually did was cause my boss to give me new priorities (help the angriest person first) every single time they heard from one of these clients. So it was “drop everything and help the person who most recently complained” which was exactly as unhelpful to everyone as before.

    This is just how things work here and are always going to work. I’m looking elsewhere but it will take a bit to line something new up, and I’m in damage control mode until then to try to keep my professional reputation as decent as possible. Does anyone have any words of wisdom for me?

    1. AVP*

      hmm, this is really tough. Is there any way to give internal clients a realistic sense of when they’ll get their project back when they submit it, and then stick to that no matter what your management says? I think if people recognize that the system is the problem, not your abilities, they’ll be more likely to not hold it against you. Personally I’d rather hear “I can’t realistically get that to you until next Tuesday,” rather than a promise that I can have it on Monday that’s not kept.

      Some of the best advice I’ve gotten from Alison is to do what you say you’re going to do, when you say you’ll do it. So if you can find a way to establish yourself as a person of work integrity working within a bad system, people are more likely to remember your effort and output rather than that you were hard to work with and left them hanging.

      Also, obviously, get out asap, but I understand that you need to keep people from rioting while you line something new up!

      1. Anonsie*

        Unfortunately no, if I could this would be a non issue. But I’ll give a realistic deadline and then be literally reassigned to something that conflicts (preventing me from hitting the earlier deadline or anywhere near it, since the reassignment often last weeks). When I explain this will cause me to miss XYZ deadlines, they sort of have a “so what” response and then leave it to me to break the bad news even if they promise to contact the clients as well.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I have taken to casting those sorts of problems as NOT being about me, but being about the company’s reputation. “I’m concerned that we’re leaving too many of our clients with a bad impression of the company.” And suggesting solutions (“Is there someone else who could tackle this specific part of the current problem?”).

      And deciding on my own where I can cut corners to get the most truly crucial thing done. And being willing to spend the 2 hours today that will save me 20 minutes every day, or maybe not 20 minutes every day but the enough ergs on every task (unit of measure for energy) to make me FEEL more efficient.

      1. Anonsie*

        Tried that a thousand times. There is a solid layer of not caring what anyone thinks or how well anything is going all over everything, essentially, the only time anyone is interested is briefly after someone complains or make a sudden demand. That’s why I can be comfortably working on a deadline and then suddenly get yanked off it and put full time on something else with no warning.

    3. TootsNYC*

      And this is a bit revolutionary, but you might pick two or three clients that you -always- come through for, who never get “reprioritized” by you, even if you have to sneak around behind your boss.

      And any of them that are the least bit understanding, ask if they can help you streamline what you do for them, jettisoning some of the ‘nice to haves.’

      1. Anonsie*

        *whispers* that’s what I was considering at this point. My work is such that it’s already only the tasks that specifically need to be done by me that are assigned in the first place, so there isn’t much in the way of corners to cut. But if there are two conflicting requests and one is from someone who’s angry no matter what all the time and one is from someone who will actually care if it comes out well, I think I know which one should come out on top.

        1. TootsNYC*

          pick the people/accounts that are most likely to be willing to serve as a client reference. Be selfish here.

        2. AVP*

          oh, seconding this so much. If there are a few people who treat you well or are easier to please…go with what you think will turn out well and hang what your boss thinks.

    4. Mazzy*

      I came here to say something similar, so no advice, just sympathy. I feel like I’ve been getting rude with people, declining to help them and calling our IT to push other peoples’ projects down in priority, but I can’t handle my workload without shutting down small talk, consistently skipping work social events, not helping coworkers or giving them ridiculous turnaround times, or thwarting their IT requests because mine are usually more important.

      One of the most frustrating parts is that my bosses don’t understand our business well, so don’t understand what I do all day or why I am stress. I was a rockstar at my previous job because others had more experience to recognize talent. My boss, on the other hand, doesn’t know the difference between me being overwhelmed and sitting on FB all day.

      It is also frustrating because the constant interruptions to discuss priorities just take out time I could be doing actual work.

  141. AVP*

    This is a random question, I know, but have any of you worked with a Mandarin-to-English translation service that you liked? I need to get a few videos translated for a work project and my usual translator can’t do it and google is turning up some pretty shady results… We need a live person to do it, not software. Thanks!

    1. Nynaeve*

      It looks like Abigael (up-thread) has a minor in Mandarin. She may be willing to help or know someone else able to.

    2. S0phieChotek*

      Also if there is a (major) university with a Chinese dept/Asian language department, a. prof there might be able to point you to someone who could do it for you?

  142. UnemployedAndWorthless*

    Anybody have any tips for (free) ways for me to survive a seemingly never-ending job search? I’m trying to get a job in a big city so I can move out of a small, declining city. I’m using a friend’s big city address when I apply for jobs there. I’ve worked on my resume and cover letters for months, using Alison and others’ suggestions. I went to a career centre in my area and got a lot of old-fashioned advice that ran counter to everything I’ve researched. I haven’t had any bites, despite sending out 4-5 applications a day that I spend an hour or more working on (each). Nothing in eight months in either city. I was actually kind of excited a few days ago because I got a rejection letter, which means I’m not totally invisible and my resumes aren’t self destructing as they travel through the internet. I’m starting to get very depressed and I have been seriously considering suicide. I can’t afford to pay my rent after June 1. I can’t afford therapy. There is no free therapy in Little City. I went to the ER and they just locked me in a room overnight and gave me some Xanax.

    1. AVP*

      I’m so sorry. I don’t have any good advice other than spending a little less time on each application to free up time to just go for a walk or a run and get outside a little bit if you can each day. I know that sounds horribly inadequate to your situation, but as a fellow depressive I stand by it, along with free internet mediation if you can stomach it.

      But you are worth it, and you will get through this. Don’t do anything hasty.

      1. UnemployedAndWorthless*

        I’ll try taking more walks. The applications take a long time because I tailor my resume to the job posting and then try to write a good cover letter. If the company requires me to fill in a form (they almost always do) that takes more time, especially if the form is very long and requires detailed information, or if I have to edit a bunch of butchered, imported text.

    2. Thyri*

      I’m so sorry to hear this. I understand how you feel, but PLEASE do not give up! Hang in there and something will happen for you, I know it! I’m sure others will have more practical advice, but I want you to know that even though I don’t know you, I care and hope that you’ll hang in there a bit longer!

      1. UnemployedAndWorthless*

        I’m trying to hang in there. I just need a little help because it’s not going so well.

    3. matilda*

      Oh my god, I just want to say that I have been there and it’s absolutely crushing. But please, please, please know that you’ll pull through. I second the suggestion to spend time outside when you can.

      And, is there anywhere that you’d really like to volunteer? I certainly don’t recommend spending your time in a way you don’t enjoy, but I happen to love working with kids and I volunteered for a children’s museum during my long-term unemployment. It gave me a sense of purpose and a reason to get out of the house. And, my supervisor there was able to help me find the job I eventually got.

      Just an anecdote, I know. My main advice is to be kind to yourself — if you don’t want to volunteer right now, don’t do it. Just know that while this is awful, it’s so very temporary. You can get through it!

      1. UnemployedAndWorthless*

        That’s a great idea, thank you. There is a home for stray cats near my apartment. Maybe I could help clean or change kitty litter. I love cats but can’t have one since my situation is not stable.

    4. LCL*

      Maybe a search of Carolyn Hax columns? I sort of remember she is really good about posting agencies that can help with mental health issues. I am so sorry you are going through this.

    5. Undine*

      If you can still enjoy anything, do something you enjoy everyday. It can be small, just a bath by candlelight, or going to a park. Whatever is helpful to you.

      How is your local library? Sometimes that’s a great place to go to get out of the house, especially if they have wifi. You can apply from there. Kinda like hanging out at a cafe, but free.

      There are free online courses for depression, usually CBT-based. Here’s a page with a couple links:
      http://psycheducation.org/treatment/psychotherapy-for-bipolar-disorder/free-online-computerized-cbtcognitive-behavioral-therapy-for-depression/

      There are also some video games and apps geared at treating depression:
      http://mic.com/articles/120006/these-6-video-games-tackle-anxiety-and-depression-one-level-at-a-time#.62Fs3aoct
      https://www.superbetter.com/

      You are not Worthless! That’s my go to word too. But not having a job does not make you worthless. And (this is harder to take in) feeling worthless does not make you worthless. You are doing your best in difficult circumstances.

    6. Joanna*

      If therapy is out of the question, is there possibly support groups around (ideally in person but perhaps online) that might be helpful? Also, please make use of suicide help lines if that would be helpful. Even reading books about people who’ve experienced similar things might help (hopefully your local library will have something)

      This may or may not suit you depending on your interests and personality, but when I was struggling with mental health while unemployed I found taking free online courses from places like Coursera helped. Some of them were work related but many were not- I did ones like world music and the history of the internet. Working towards completing the coursed gave me a sense of achievement and structure. Some kind of creative project like learning a craft or musical instrument might affect the same effect.

      Above all, remember that while you may be unemployed for this particularly stretch of time, you are not and never have been worthless. Everyone of every employment status has value and something to contribute the world.

  143. katamia*

    I have an informational interview next week, my first one (I’m the question-asker). I’ve looked a bit through the archives on informational interviews but haven’t seen my question addressed. I know the general rule seems to be “If you ask someone for an informational interview, be prepared to pay but don’t be surprised if they pay because they’re normally in a better financial position than you are.” I’m fine with paying (obviously would prefer it if the other person paid, but I can afford to pay and plan to offer), but how does ordering (place with a counter, not a sit-down restaurant) normally work with this? Do I order first or second? Ordering first would mean I could easily say “I’m paying for her food too,” but I don’t know if she plans to eat or just get coffee or something. I have some dietary restrictions and would prefer not to eat, but I don’t want her to feel like she can’t eat, and if she orders first then I’m prepared to get something small.

    Ugh. I feel pretty prepared for the actual interview, but the ordering procedure is driving me nuts. How does this work?

    1. TootsNYC*

      I think when the menu arrives, you could say, “My treat?”

      an then they can say, “Why, thank you!” or “Goodness, no, I’ll treat; I can expense it, after all,” or “there’s no need, we can go dutch.” (and I know that “dutch” is sort of not really nice bcs it’s a stereotype of some sort, but boy is it a useful phrase, bcs it’s so short and zippy)

      1. katamia*

        Thanks! This place has people order at a counter (which means I need to come up with contingency orders, haha), but I like the “My treat?” idea. I can try that as we approach the counter.

    2. Overeducated*

      Often the person at the counter will say “together or separate?” and then you can jump in and say, “together! Let me get this!”

  144. Thyri*

    I am anxiously waiting to find out if I’ve been selected for an internal transfer for a job an external candidate was also recommended for. Things move slowly at my company, so I’ve been on the edge of my seat. This would be a much better situation for me and for various reasons I feel like if I have to stay at my current job for more than a few more weeks, I’m going to explode. I admit I will be incredibly disappointed if they go with the external candidate.

    I was accepted into a low-residency MFA program, and this new job would allow me to have the schedule I want (do schoolwork in the morning and afternoon and work in the evenings) and make it so I don’t have to do any writing for work so I can focus on writing for school. I’d also learn a new skill. Positive vibes would be much appreciated!

  145. littlelawyer*

    Sorry this is so long, but I feel like the background is important!

    I’m a lawyer at a relatively large firm who does exclusively public sector work. One of my clients, a municipal agency, approached me over a year ago, but at the time I was two months pregnant and also wasn’t sure if my family would be leaving the area because there was a major possibility my family would be moving out of state due to my husband’s job. I told the client I was very interested, but that I wasnt sure if we were staying because of my husband’s job and I didn’t want to accept and then have to leave. It turns out we stayed and I had my baby, took maternity leave, and came back about a month ago.

    I recently was doing some work for this client and the topic came up again. I explained that I was still interested, but when it was previously brought up I couldn’t say yes in good conscience because I didn’t want to leave them in the lurch if we left and because I was planning to take a good chunk of time for maternity leave. The person I was talking to about the position is the second in command so he said he would talk to the head honcho of the agency, who I know well and have a great rapport with and get back to me.

    A few days later I received a call from the person I had been discussing the job with who said that the head honcho was very interested in bringing me on and wanted to set up a meeting to discuss the role and possibilities. I said great and asked what they thought the role would be. We discussed that and it sounded like what I imagined. Then he said we’d talk soon and we hung up. That was over a week ago and we’ve talked several times about business since. I haven’t brought it up because I don’t want to sound pushy, but I very much want to move the ball along if I can! The agency’s municipal fiscal year starts on July 1, which sounds far away, but in municipal agency worlds is actually pretty close. There are going to be a bunch of hoops to jump through to get me hired and we haven’t even talked about details like salary yet. Also, they don’t usually have a lawyer in the role I would be in, so it would be a bit of a hybrid HR/in house counsel role with a lot to be defined and the title would be very important to me. So there is a lot that would need to be worked out for me to go over there (even though I would love to work with them personally and I think the work would be a lot better–especially no billable hour!).

    How can I move this along without hurting my chances and appearing pushy or making it awkward because this agency is my client? I have a really friendly relationship with the head people, but I want to keep it that way and in no way make it awkward.

    Thanks in advance for any advice!

    2. fposte*

      I’ll defer if somebody in the law/agency world weighs in, but I think this is pretty similar to other job opportunities in that it’ll run on the employer’s timetable. I’d say you can check in next week to see if there’s been a chance to ID the head honcho’s availability, and I might at that point ask if the thought is the job would be in place by July 1.

      But around my parts, as long as the budget line was in place by the start of the fiscal year we wouldn’t need to have you starting bang on July 1, and even that’s fudgeable. Are you sure it’s different for this? Maybe it’s not such a make-or-break date.

      1. littlelawyer*

        Thanks so much! This is very helpful. My idea has been to sort of hang back and let them take the lead on it. I am just excited and need to be patient.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Everything I see happen at the municipal level happens at the last minute. There are many reasons for this, mostly because there is no money, everyone is too busy, etc.

      Prep or rough draft everything you think you will need. Make notes to yourself about talking points. Put it in a well marked folder and keep it by the phone. Serious. They will probably get back to you at some point. They sound very interested, so it must be that they are just scattered at the moment.

      1. littlelawyer*

        Thank you for the feedback! I appreciate it. I will definitely start working out my plan so that if it comes up suddenly, I will be prepared to talk. That is very helpful advice!

  147. OrganizedChaos*

    Towards the end March my company terminated a coworker (let’s call him Nero) that worked in my department for performance issues (although I think that was a trumped up excuse because Nero had brought to his manager that he was being bullied by a few coworkers (termed employee: older, white gay male) and his manager just brushed it off. I only know about the complaint to his manager because Nero told me about it after the fact and told him to talk to the HR department or one of the business owners.

    Fast forward to this week. I learned on Tuesday that the Nero committed suicide this past Friday. Coworker friends stated he was depressed about losing job because he thought he was unfairly treated and losing his job resulted in his fickle mooching partner breaking up with him for lack of income.

    I have heard by various reliable coworkers that several of the managers involved in the decision to terminate Nero have remarked of the guilt they feel because of the whole situation (I don’t think the reliable coworkers or guilt ridden managers know about the complaint situation) and are expressing that the guilt they feel is overwhelming because they feel responsible and don’t understand why Nero would not just come talk to them about his feelings. :|

    Anyway, having never experienced a former or current coworker suicide loss (other employees have passed away naturally) the employees are at a loss to how to feel or express what they are feeling/thinking.

    In a situation such as this, what do you say to people? I didn’t have anything to do with the decision making in this situation although I could have been more diligent in going behind Nero’s back and talking to HR or a business owner about the situation, I don’t *think* I feel guilty (more like angry, disappointed, etc. in my now deceased coworker’s ultimate choice, but that is personal and not up for debate in my mind so I don’t voice it to anyone except my partner at home) so I am struggling a little bit with how my other coworkers and the above managers are feeling. I don’t think that I am narcissistic or that I lack empathy, I just cant seem to relate or understand the way they are feeling. What makes someone feel that it is ok to take the internal blame for someone else’s decision to take their life?

    Anyone?

    1. Laura*

      Suicide is shocking to those left behind, more so than when someone dies of natural causes. As a coping mechanism, it’s easy for people to want to blame themselves for their actions or inactions, which may or may not have led to Nero’s unhappiness. But at the end of the day, it is NOBODY’S “fault” that Nero killed himself. It’s very sad, but that’s all. Hopefully everyone can move on.

    2. Terra*

      It may not seem like it but guilt can be a natural and productive part of the grieving process as well. Obviously nothing they did was solely responsible for your co-workers suicide, but if they did something they shouldn’t have or that they regret in hindsight such as brushing off his bullying complaints without looking into them then the guilt is probably their way of processing that and hopefully is going to make sure they don’t make the same mistakes in the future. It’s not something everyone does or should feel but some people naturally will. As long as it’s not taking over their life I’d just try and accept it and let it go.

    3. TootsNYC*

      “(more like angry, disappointed, etc. in my now deceased coworker’s ultimate choice,”

      I used to think like this. Then I was nearly suicidal. It’s not a deliberately selfish choice–it’s a choice built out of so terribly much pain. So much pain that it’s like pulling away from a hot flame–sure, it’s a selfish choice to pull your hand away from fire, because leaving it there hurts. Suicide is often the same way. It’s such a psychic pain. Until you’ve really been near it, I think it can be so hard to understand that.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds to me like you have more info than others do. Lacking that info people tend to search around for clues/answers. I think they are pretty normal given their givens and you are pretty normal given your givens.

      OTH, this could be the differences in grief processes. You looked around and found people to talk with to piece together what happened. Other people looked at their own actions and questioned their own actions. We all grieve differently and that is because we are all different.

      Last thought. Any time anyone dies for any reason, there are always people who say, “If only I had done X or said Y or gotten Z.” The nature of suicide is to cause more people to think along these lines. It really brings this train of thought out in people.

  148. Silver Radicand*

    Anybody hiring customer service people right now having difficulties lately? Or, even better, ideas where else to advertise? I manage a hospital valet service (all weekdays, 1st shift) and I’m having trouble even getting applications back from qualified candidates. I get most of my applicants from the sign at our location, but in the past I have also tried Craigslist, the local college, ZipRecruiter. We offer full-time with benefits too! I’m just not sure where else to advertise now.

      1. Nanc*

        That’s a great idea, and you won’t necessarily get a deluge of inappropriate applicants. They probably have an option to have the unemployment office screen the applications and only send on the truly qualified (our does). You do have to work with a rep in creating screening questions, but it might be worth it.

    2. Joanna*

      It might be a more costly way to hire, but maybe a recruitment agency focusing ether on permanent or long term temp roles could help?

  149. Lucie*

    I’m about to graduate and it’s so hard to make choices!! Anyone wants to take over my life and make career decisions for me?

    Basically my primary interest is political advocacy and lobbying, and I’d love to do a masters of public affairs and then start a graduate programme in regulatory consulting. I have a summer internship with a huge consulting firm lined up and I’m reasonably confident they’d hire me back after my masters.

    On the other hand, I have a (better paid, better hours) offer to work in a bank which, although corporate finance isn’t my dream job it’s one bird in the hand.

    My parents are telling me I should chase my dreams and go for the Masters (I am in the EU so it’s super cheap + I am told by my professors I am 90% guaranteed a scholarship) and find a lobbying job after that. My friends, who are living in the reality of a shit job market, are telling me the banking job is a sweet deal and I should take it or I’ll regret it.

    Does anyone have advice on what to do? I don’t want to self-sabotage by rejecting a job for an internship which may or may not turn into a job later…but I feel like at 20 I am too young to pass on exciting opportunities like a free Masters in something I’m passionate about!

    1. littlelawyer*

      Listen to your parents. Go for your dream job. Even if it turns out not to be what you hoped or expected, you will never think “what if” and that’s huge.

    2. Anon Moose*

      With an MPA or similar political science grad school offerings I would STRONGLY suggest working for a year or two before going. So do many of the programs that I am familiar with. The programs in general tend to skew older (though the norms may be different in Europe- check the program. Do your research. Speak to people in the field you want, people who have done the program, professors, people currently in the program.). I’m going to be starting my MA in international relations in the fall after 5 years out of school. For many IR masters and MPA programs I looked at, the people that were happier and better off on the job market after graduation, were those that went in with at least 2 years of experience. Even the people I know who went straight out of undergraduate say they wish they would have waited, and I know several that have struggled to get jobs with their masters because they don’t have entry level work exp. That way you know for sure that its the field you want because you’ve worked in it. You don’t want to invest time, if not $, in a grad degree only to discover you hate working in the field. But of course, you know yourself best, and it sounds like finances may not be as much of a hindrance as they were for me. But- the masters will still be low cost in a year or two, won’t it?

      And as a person who struggled to find work out of undergrad in political/ international work I was interested in and instead worked in various nonprofits, I would say take the job in your field if you have the chance. You are building your career and experience in a related field is going to help you more in the long run than just experience in something you may hate but took for the $ (my friends who took jobs for the big $ in fields they don’t like are in general more unhappy.) And on the bright side, very little you do right now can affect your overall career trajectory irrevocably. Do what you want! You’re fortunate to have options (and possibly options that others would kill for) but that doesn’t have to make you feel guilty for turning them down if they aren’t right for you. You don’t know what opportunities it might lead to.

  150. Laura*

    Late to the party today, but here I am!

    I graduated with my BA a year ago and am employed full-time by a well-known university. Yesterday I was accepted into the school’s M.Ed in Higher and Postsecondary Education! I am so excited to be going back to school (even though I work at one). The program will cost me very little (thanks to employee tuition) and I will learn a lot. I’m happy to be doing this early on in life– I’ll be 23 when I start the program.

  151. Grey*

    Got an elevator at work? Is anyone else annoyed by people who rush onto the elevator without checking to see if there’s anyone who needs to get off of it first?

    For me, this ranks right up there with people who push their shopping carts out of an aisle without looking to see if anyone is walking past.

    1. Lillian McGee*

      Oh yes. My favorite is when they actually GET ON before I’ve had a chance to disembark. I always turn around and say really? as the doors are closing…

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      This happened to me last weekend at a hotel in Laughlin. I almost got knocked over by a bunch of tourists.

    3. Daniel*

      This is totally my pet peeve. I try to stand in the doorway as it is about to open so that I am physically blocking anyone trying to rush on before I can get off.

    4. TootsNYC*

      I worked for a top boss once who called that “elevator arrogance.” Usually about herself. “It’s my elevator, not anybody else’s.”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Shopping cart. The way the items are stacked on the header people have no choice but to push out into the T intersection to see if anyone is coming.
      I try to use those smaller carts whenever possible. I can get through the store quicker if I do use the smaller cart.

      1. Grey*

        Sure, but I think you can still make some effort to look. Some people fly out of there like they’re the only person in the store and aren’t looking anywhere but straight ahead when they do it. I imagine they’re the same people who leave their carts right in the middle of the aisle while they’re looking at the shelves, or blocking the aisle while having a conversation with another shopper. Or maybe they’re the same people who get in the self-scan lane then slowly inspect each item to locate the bar code.

        Have you guessed I don’t like grocery shopping?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I get tired of feeling like a social klutz in a store. The headers are so high that you truly cannot see. I have near collisions at least six times every time I go to the store. It feels like all I do is say ” ‘scuse me, pardon me, I’m sorry”. The saying is “stack it high, watch it fly”. And they do.
          I blame the industry. Their profit margins are 1-3%. In one store I worked I figured out that it took 100 people to make $4K in profit.
          They do not check expiration dates because they do not have enough help/time. In the future, if this continues worsening, we will have to check the expiration date on every thing we buy.
          I can give ya a fist bump though, I hate grocery shopping too.

  152. Tiffany*

    When a job posting doesn’t ask for a cover letter yet I’m going to write one anyways, would it be wise to just write it in the body of the e-mail or attached to the e-mail?

    1. Colette*

      This is an ongoing debate, but I do t think there’s a clear answer. Personally, I include it in the body of the email but there are good arguments for both sides.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think most job postings I’ve responded to have asked for a cover letter. I think the standard is to include one (maybe not for certain industries, but the ones I’ve been involved in at least). I typically will put it in the body of the email, because it seems silly to me to write in the email, “Hi, this is my cover letter and résumé—see attached.” I’d rather just write the cover letter in the email and include the résumé as an attachment.

  153. R*

    I’m hiring for an open position in the US and OH BOY the crappy resumes I am getting. But this has been my favorite so far… an email an employee in a different part of company:

    I got a notification from the job postings about [the position] in your team. I have a friend who best fit the job with around 2 years’ of relevant experience. She is actively looking for a suitable role to start ASAP. I went through the job description and realized that she would fit in the role as a perfect match. I would be glad if you can talk to her and know more details about the same.

    How should I respond??

    1. Colette*

      I don’t see a big issue here – was a resume attached? There are grammatical mistakes, but not on the part of an applicant.

      If you think it’s a deal breaker, you can refer them to your normal application process.

      1. R*

        It’s presumptuous of the guy to claim his friend is a “perfect fit”. An immediate turn off, even though I know nothing else about the candidate.

        1. Colette*

          I’d judge that more harshly if to were coming from the candidate. As it is, he is giving his perception, as misguided as it may be.

    2. Rob Lowe can't read*

      Did this person actually give you the friend’s contact information, or are you supposed to respond to the person who wrote the email?

      Either way, I think you choose between (a) not responding at all, or (b) responding to the person who wrote the email only to say that you prefer interested parties apply directly as per the instructions.

    3. Crystal Vu*

      “Hello, Coworker-in-different-part:

      Your friend can apply the same way as any other candidate for the position, [at online link or Your Company’s standard protocol for applications.]

      Thanks,

      R.”

      No need to address Coworker-in-other-part’s comment about you contacting the friend to talk to her.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I got a notification from the job postings about [the position] in your team. I have a friend who best fit the job with around 2 years’ of relevant experience. She is actively looking for a suitable role to start ASAP. I went through the job description and realized that she would fit in the role as a perfect match. I would be glad if you can talk to her and know more details about the same.

      The only time this sort of response is appropriate is if it comes from someone you know well in a professional context. Even then, the “perfect match” wording is offputting and, frankly, not very practically helpful.

      If it’s coming from someone you don’t know, I wouldn’t respond at all.

      1. QualityControlFreak*

        It really reads to me like a non-native English speaker/writer, perhaps trying to help a friend with a similar language barrier. Not that any of that is R’s problem.

  154. Terra*

    Very late to the party but do you think you have an obligation to speak up when you disagree with the reason a co-worker was fired? Or when you disagree with managers keeping something a secret?

    Basically I was just old that one of my co-workers has been fired (for cause) due to a customer complaint. The customer in question is not a nice person, he called me a “stupid c**t” my first week on the job for refusing to schedule work after hours for free, but he spends a lot of money so he tends to get what he wants. Management is playing it close to the vest and even told us to lie, if questioned, and say that the co-worker is still employed which seems incredibly shady and makes me wonder if they’re worried about other people quitting as well? The whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      do you think you have an obligation to speak up when you disagree with the reason a co-worker was fired? Or when you disagree with managers keeping something a secret?

      A professional obligation? No. A moral obligation? Yes. But “speak[ing] up” doesn’t have to be some organized protest or a hostile confrontation. You can just voice your opposition calmly and once, and then leave it at that. Ultimately, it’s not your call, but you can definitely say your piece and give your input.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would be sure management knew what this customer is doing.
      And I would tell management that I am not a very good liar because I always forget my lies. So I will probably not be able to keep up the lie about coworker still being there. Then I would add, if the question comes up, I will just refer the person asking to management.

  155. ZerbertSherbert*

    Another long time reader/first time poster here. I have been interviewing with a company since February and received an verbal and then a written offer this week. It is a salary exempt position, and the salary came in about $3k less than what I’m currently making, but with a performance-based bonus that pushes it up another $4k.

    I tried to negotiate salary without any luck and then asked about adding PTO. My direct report said the request was “bewildering” because I will be making more than my current salary with the bonus and they thought I would have been happy with the offer.

    I tried to smooth it over, reiterated that I am excited about the position and I just wanted to ask before returning the paperwork. I immediately emailed the paperwork to HR and my direct report, once again saying how excited I am to start in my new role.

    Now I am plagued with anxiety, feeling like I botched it by trying to negotiate. The acceptance letter did explicitly say the offer could be rescinded even if signed.

    I am also afraid to give my notice to my current employer, in case they pull the offer. I have a little more than two weeks before my start date, which I had wanted to use for a break between the two jobs.

    I’ve never attempted to negotiate and honestly I’m feeling a little bewildered by how it all shook down. Any advice would be much appreciated!

    1. esra*

      The only bewildering thing here, imo, is that they thought it was odd someone would try to negotiate when the offer brings your base down 3k and the bonus only brings it up 1k over what you’re making. I think you’dve been crazy not to negotiate in this case.

    2. TootsNYC*

      “bewildering,” my eye.

      Also, do you want this job? Unless I was really miserable, I’d turn it down. A $1,000 raise is just not that much, ESPECIALLY when it’s a bonus-based raise. What happens if you don’t get a bonus? Bonuses are generally not a guarantee. Sure, you have control over your performance, but. . .

      And asking for extra time off is perfectly reasonable. In fact, considering that for MOST employers, giving an exempt employee vacation time (especially if they take that time) doesn’t actually cost them cash, and it doesn’t hurt productivity that much.

      I think you should consider turning it down. Just because they offer it to you doesn’t mean you need to take it.

      Oh, and if the negotiations take too long, just give them a different start date. If they want you, they’ll wait one more week.

      ALSO: do you realize what a bad raise that is? If your current salary if $36,000, then $1,000 is only a 2.7% raise. (If you’re at $45,000, it’s 2.2%) That’s really low; that’s a cost-of-living raise. This is not a bump up.

      If you move from one position to another, I think you should get a 7% to 10% raise–OK, maybe a 5% raise. the only way this is a 5% raise is if you’re currently earning $20,000.

  156. Mmm Beets*

    Do I really have to report to everyone that “oversees” me?
    [I will address the following in terms of higher education even though I don’t work in academia/HE.]

    I was hired by Big University and contracted to a State School, but am housed in a Community College. My boss is from State U, but the supervisor at CC occasionally wants to act like she’s my supervisor. I do nothing for the CC other than occupy a desk. My cube-mate at CC is also from BU and has been housed at the CC for many years whereas I recently relocated. On the first day she told me to ignore CC Sup and tell her as little info as possible. Cube-mate has known CC Sup on a personal level for 30+ years and worked with her professionally for 10. CM and I have worked together for 5 and has a different boss at State U and has chosen to only report to him.

    I feel weird not saying much to CC Sup, but the few times I’ve mentioned anything (I have an appt tomorrow; I’ll be at a conference all week; etc.) it turns out to be such a hassle. Endless questions and/or assumptions (You DO look sick…uh, what? By appt I meant dentist? Or, give us a report on your conference!). I flex every other Monday and this week she asked where I was…I told her when I first started I had a flex schedule and this is like the 12th flex Monday I’ve taken. I’ve been here for 6 months already! Why didn’t you ask me after the first or second or even fifth time? Ok, now I’m just ranting.

    Do I really have to “report” to her? At the end of the day, I’ll do what I have to do, but I also don’t feel the need to tell anyone other than my boss what I am doing.

    1. fposte*

      I’d check it with your boss just in case, but I don’t see any reason for you to report to CC sup. You’re basically a tenant, not a staffer.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I’d touch base w/ boss by saying, “Is there any reason you know of for the person at CC to quiz me about my absences and stuff? She seems to be acting like a supervisor, and it’s really weird.”

      And then I’d say to CC, “Is there a reason you are asking?” And wait. And wait. Big pause after her answer. And then if there’s the tiniest whiff of “work” scent to it, say, “Well, I’m in touch with my boss, and she has all the info she needs to supervise me.”

      If she says, “Oh, I’m just trying to be friendly,” then maybe smile in a very friendly way and say, “Oh, that’s nice. It was really sounding like you were checking up on me like a boss! I’m glad to know it’s just friendliness. I’ve got to get back to work now,” and don’t actually answer her question.

      Is she just asking out of idle curiosity, or does she sound a bit schoolmarm-ish?

  157. oh boy*

    About a year ago, an ex-employer fired me, in my opinion, as retaliation for complaining about pay discrepancies and certain monkey business about how the company was calculating overtime holiday pay.

    I consulted a lawyer and we complained to the NLRB. Shortly afterward, the ex-employer filed a lawsuit against me, accusing my of stealing company documents. (My lawyer and I think this is bogus and itself retaliatory — I was accidentally given access to company documents, which was how I learned about the pay disparity, but I reported it to my supervisor and, except for keeping a copy, never distributed or used them in any way.)

    Anyway, this situation never came up when I was hired at my most recent job. But that company recently decided to downsize and I was laid off, which means I’m looking for work again.

    Are civil suits like these likely to come up with prospective employers if they perform a background check, or do those generally only turn up criminal records? I’m really nervous this will torpedo my chances with any new jobs and not sure how to address it if it comes up. I do feel confident that I didn’t do anything wrong, but the company has levied a pretty serious accusation and I know employers are already wary of “litigious” candidates…

    1. Brett*

      Civil suits turn up, and are rather easy to find. The hard part is finding the content of the suit beyond the judgement and some motions. Mostly employers are worried about debts from outstanding judgements or injunctions/restraining orders that could prevent you from doing your job.
      Like most background checks, the main thing is not to lie about it when asked.

  158. EvilQueenRegina*

    This might be a silly thing, but I’m mentioning it anyway.

    So our manager, Emma, has this boyfriend, Killian, who very often rings her during the working day. If one of the other members of the team answers the phone to him (which is frequent, since she has a tendency not to answer her phone and let one of us do it, or if she’s not at the desk then one of us picks up anyway) and Killian will think it’s funny to make up some ridiculous name of a fake person he’s pretending to be. I know it’s a small thing but it can be an annoying waste of our time and my coworker Kathryn pointed out today that if anyone rang one of us up saying something stupid, we’d get in trouble for it.

    Anyone else ever had anything like that?

    On the plus side, his silly names will give me inspiration for pseudonyms on here when I run out of Once Upon a Time characters!

  159. h.cowl*

    Holy shiiiit! I’m 1 month into my new job and I’m 90% sure two people just got fired yesterday. This morning I got work assigned to them, which is strange since they worked the same shift as I do (Tuesday-Saturday, the other half of the department is Sunday-Thursday). And then their names were removed from the daily assignments. And 5 minutes ago a dude from IT came down and dismantled their computers.

    I wonder if/when the rest of us are going to hear that they aren’t working here anymore, if they’ll let us all know if the news will just trickle out? This is the first time I’ve worked at a big enough company for this to happen and it’s kinda blowing my mind.

    1. TootsNYC*

      It’ll be interesting to watch this play out.

      Companies/managers are often unsure how to handle this stuff; if they were laid off, the company will be more open about it. If they were fired for cause, the company will probably be pretty close-mouthed about it, so as not to leave themselves open to accusations of defamation.

      And of course, there’s the whole “let’s not stir up drama” thing. So often, though, they don’t realize that there would be far less drama if some of the info were forthcoming easily.

  160. Laura Beth*

    One of our employees resigned last week, and we will be interviewing next week. This is a very entry level position, which we advertise as such, and we often interview people with no office experience. I know I read an AAM letter where someone had this exact situation, and asked for help with questions since you can’t very well ask how they handled a situation at their last job, but I can’t find it! Anyone have a better memory/Google search skills that can link it for me, or who just has some good suggestions? The position is at a very small law office, and we start out training them as admin assistants, then slowly move into legal assistant/paralegal work. Thanks!!

    1. TootsNYC*

      ask how they WOULD handle it–but draw out the details of the scenario for them instead of asking them about a scenario from their life.

  161. MsChanandlerBong*

    I posted a few weeks ago that my husband finally found a job after almost seven months of unemployment. The position was advertised as part-time, but it comes with benefits, so we were happy…until he got the benefits info and found out the premiums would leave him with a net of about $200 (or less) per check. Well, he came home yesterday and told me his boss has already asked him to convert to full-time. He’s only been there five days! He’ll work part-time until mid-May and then switch to his new full-time schedule. This is a huge blessing and relief to us.

  162. Michelle*

    Hi. Yesterday I found out I did not get a job I interviewed for about 3-4 weeks ago. However, the person I interviewed with forwarded my resume to another person (“Sara”)in her department and said that I may be a good fit for this job. Today I get an email from Sara asking for a phone interview. I said “I would love to set up a time to speak about the position. What is a good time for you?” She replied, “Tuesday…..” Tuesday doesnt work for me bc I will be camping with my family and at this campground I do not have any service. So I replied, “Would it be possible to speak with you about the position on Thursday at 10:30?” This was sent to her at 12pm. She has not responded and it is now 8:30 pm. Did I do something wrong? Should I have just went with the time and “made a way”?

    1. TootsNYC*

      I don’t think it was wrong to ask for a different time.
      I suppose you could have said, “What is a good time? I’m available next week starting on Thursday.”

      But I can’t imagine you want to work for someone who throw out your whole application (and the recommendation of a colleague!) for this.

      Chill.

    2. Undine*

      It was probably not a priority for her to get this nailed down on a Friday afternoon. There’s a good chance she’s still interested. There’s always Alison’s line, “A week in your time is a day in theirs.” You can send her a note saying you will not be online again until —, but you will be available Thursday and Friday next week at thus and such times. You do have to give her a lot of flexibility, because she may have lots of work meetings, so make sure you give her a choice.

  163. How do you do this?*

    I never thought that I would ever have to do this, so early in my career (I guess), but unfortunately one of my parents is being tested for cancer. In a few weeks we should know the biopsy results and I think I need to be there to hear the results with them. How… do you actually ask for a day “off” of work to do this? I know could probably use a sick day, but I just… don’t know how to ask. I’m really private about health issues and HATE discussing them even with people I know. I work in a workplace that (I think) is pretty supportive about things like this, but ugh… I guess the whole situation seems like so much and I’m just shaken and I don’t know HOW to ask for it.

    1. TootsNYC*

      “Boss, I want to take X day off; my folks need me to go with them to the doctor this time. OK?”

      And maybe, if you have to clock your hours or give reasons for those days off, then say, “Do I count this as sick time, or something else?”

      Honest, unless your boss is an ogre, it’ll be fine. You don’t have to give any details–you want to give just enough to indicate that you can’t shift it around, and that it’s a serious request. If you want to leave the medical reason off, just say, “my folks need me to help them with something”; it might shut down the hope of assigning it to sick time.

      And start looking into FMLA. I was worried I wouldn’t qualify when I wasn’t medically needed, but one of the legit reasons is to provide emotional support.

  164. Ada Lovelace*

    I need to vent about the lack of work at my job. It’s a part time job in grant writing at a nonprofit. They hired me in December without clarifying the role. I was told I was the replacement for another employee who was transferring. In the two months he was supposed to train me but our schedules didn’t match up or he would disappear for hours until leaving. After he transferred, I was supposed to pick up some responsibilities but we underwent some reorganization before the new CEO started (my manager was demoted, grandboss took over a new department and took us with her). I spoke with grandboss about not having anything to do and she made an effort to get me some work I.e. tracking our grants but now I’m back to not having anything to do for hours. I ask former manager if she needs assistance with anything and she’ll mention upcoming projects but never follows up. I’m just tired of doing nothing and feeling like I’m stealing money from the organization. I don’t know how often I’m supposed to ask for work.

    1. Soupspoon McGee*

      Now you know why the last guy left :-).

      I came into an organization in the midst of transition and turmoil, and was only told to get more grants. I started out by creating a tracking system for past grants, just to understand what they’d done and what was due for renewal. I also researched foundations and other grantmakers so I could put together a list of top 5 or 10 targets with the kinds of things they were most likely to fund. Do you think you can do those things? If you don’t have a subscription to a grant database, research some possibilities and suggest your boss invest in one.

  165. Jade*

    Is it okay to leave a job off of applications (not resumes; *applications*) if you were only there a few days? Relating to my question above- my friend just started at a job and had to deal with some horrifically bad behavior from her bosses and coworkers on her first day. She wants to try and stick it out to see what happens, but if she decides to quit after a short time, does she even need to include it on applications? I feel like it’s not enough time to even make it worth saying she worked there, but I don’t know what the conventional wisdom is on this.

    1. acmx*

      If the company does a background check then she needs to include it. my industry does background checks and omitting a job would disqualify me.

      1. Joey*

        She’s just a college student looking for minimum wage jobs. I would think this is probably not the kind fo work where that would matter, right?

        1. Jade*

          You’re right, she’s just out of high school and not looking for like a job in the banking industry or something. I would hope you’re correct that min wage jobs aren’t the type to do extensive background checks.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      For many jobs, no she does not have to list it. And it’s better if she does not list it.

    3. Joanna*

      Unless there’s really good reason to think a prospective employer would find out and care, I would definitely leave it off. Having spent a few days or even a couple of weeks is not long enough to generate any experience and skills worth talking about

  166. Daniel*

    I’m soon to be a graduate in engineering (with my masters) on the job hunt.

    Two things that are annoying me so far (probably irrationally) are job positions that say local candidates only and the lack of response from 99% percent of the applications I’ve put in. I’m basically looking for a job anywhere in the US but the state I live in (OK, it’s Alabama, I want out) and am willing if necessary to pay for moving costs. The local candidates only thing would make more sense to me if instead they said no relocation assistance as I realize it is an entry-level position and I’ll be lucky if I get any. In the modern day is it really necessary to have an in-person interview even?

    The other thing is the lack of response. 37 of my applications have been placed for two or more weeks ago and another 40 applications since then. I’m probably being way too impatient but can someone reassure me that one pre-screen call and one call to set up a video interview is not abnormally low response numbers with so many applications in? The video interview was actually set up via phone call the day after I placed that application (Monday) so I got excited that I was going to start hearing from more people and since then absolutely nothing. What is a reasonable time frame to expect a first response or move on and continue applying more? (Absolutely none of the positions have closing dates, apparently private sector engineers don’t believe in closing dates.)

    1. TootsNYC*

      Yes, I think it’s necessary to have an in-person interview. We have to work with you 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. We want to be sure we can stand you.

      So, you’ll want to make a pitch that says you’ll be able to come to town to interview, and that you’ll be the one to bear the brunt of travel and inconvenience.

      “relocating candidates”? Maybe you can go for that. “I’m relocating, and so will be a local candidate very shortly.”

      And never stop applying. Always be applying. Even when you’ve got a hot prospect, keep sending stuff out, etc.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I am on a board that is hiring and we are going to drag the candidates to the work site for an interview. The reason is we want to KNOW that they see what they are getting into- rural area, not many amenities, isolation-working alone, etc. This is nothing that can be seen in skype.

    3. LCL*

      Local candidates only?! It amazes me that here in the US companies always find new ways to hinder job applicants. Hopefully someone from a majority other than white demographic area will sue some of these firms and get a large settlement, and that will put an end to this bs.

  167. Sparkly Librarian*

    I hit my one-year service mark with the city and automatically moved up a pay step. This, plus the union-negotiated raise at the beginning of the fiscal year, brings me back to (actually, just above) the base pay level I left when I came over from the private sector. I am pleased that I only lost a year AND that I have yearly increases to look forward to. In my previous job, raises and COL increases were kind of arbitrarily offered, and there were several years when raises (and hiring) were frozen. I love the transparency of civil service payscales.

  168. Joey*

    Is it normal to have a performance review in which your coworkers are involved, giving personal reviews about you in front of everyone?

    2. Joanna*

      It’s not a practice I’ve ever experienced before and not even one I’ve heard of happening much. It seems to be a pretty terrible idea when it comes to both workplace morale and generating productive feedback

    3. Schnapps*

      Ehhhhhh, there’s this thing called 360 feedback. Basically you get feedback from all your co-workers at all levels. This sounds a bit different though, and probably a misapplication of that.

      Also feedback on your performance is supposed to be about changeable behaviour. So if it’s personal (ie about you as a person) then that’s not really useful feedback.

      1. Joey*

        Ha, well the situation has pretty much been resolved as I just turned in my notice and made sure to tell my boss this was a part of my reasoning. What happened was that I had requested a meeting with my boss regarding an issue I had, and was called into a meeting a few days later, which I thought was for this reason. Turns out the meeting wasn’t to address my concerns (that meeting never happened, BTW)- it was an impromptu performance review with my boss, all the supervisors (even those not in my department), and two of my peers, who looked uncomfortable as can be. My boss chimed in first and then went around the room asking people to say how they felt I was doing. To their credit, nobody said anything negative about my performance, but some criticized my personality for being too quiet. My peers defended me as just a quiet person, but that I did great with my clients. The whole thing was degrading and caught me totally off guard. It was at that point I started looking for a new job. I put up with a myriad of other things that eventually led to me quitting now. It wasn’t until recently that I looked back at all the things that have happened there and started to wonder if these experiences- this review included- was not normal. Guess it’s not.

    5. S0phieChotek*

      It doesn’t sound normal…but wasn’t there a letter somewhat similar here a year or so ago? Someone wrote in about group meeting with personalf feedback or something like that?

  169. Overeducated*

    Late post but…I have, for me, a ton of phone screens and interviews this month! Three last week, two this week, two or three next week depending on scheduling. So far more than half are for jobs I don’t think I want after learning more about duties and compensation (the same title can cover a lot of different things!), but there was one interview last week that I have my fingers crossed for, as well as three this next week that I am very interested in. I am honestly having trouble finding time to prep for them all on top of regular work and interview travel but it must be done.

    I know a cluster of interviews is nothing more than luck – i’ve had many of them that amounted to naught – but I really need something to work out soon. Wish me luck in getting offers for the jobs I want, and not the ones I don’t but would be obligated to take.

  170. Paperthin*

    I brought it to my supervisor’s attention that we’re using inaccurate information. She insisted I use it without explanation, but then told everyone I did the report. It felt like she wanted to acknowledge all the hard work I put in, but I also feel like she should have noticed the issue with the report.

    My supervisor’s manager has not so subtly hinted I need to mind my own business because I’m causing them stress (not my words) so I don’t feel comfortable mentioning this report. I noticed and brought up a few issues in the past and have earned myself a bad reputation.

    I’ve kept my mouth shut on a number of issues and have tried to fix what I can. The ones I don’t mention come back and bite me. If I try to solve something my way, I’m approaching it wrong or my solution is okay one week and not the next. If I bring up too much I become a pest. I’ll be told to do one thing and then the next I’ll be criticized for doing it. There are so many rules and then exceptions to the rule. I feel like I’m stuck in a perpetual cycle of doing too much and then doing too little. I might have terrible judgment and don’t seem to be learning what they want. At this point, I feel like any question or thing I bring up will be met with hostility.

    I feel really dumb, like I’m unable to follow instructions or read my surroundings to figure out the best course of action. I don’t know which battles to choose. From recent conversations, it seems like I may not be welcome at the company for long and may probably a poor fit for the company.

    Am I doomed for failure? These type of situations are probably common at most companies, but I just don’t know how to handle them properly. Aside from developing a thicker skin what else can I do to stop feeling like a failure and to better myself in the future?

    1. Schnapps*

      Polish your resume. Get on the job search.

      Either your company is fudging the numbers a la Enron, or your managers are not good managers. In any case the work environment doesn’t sound like the right fit for you.

  171. Schnapps*

    So late, but here’s a thing.

    At the end of last year our Teapot Records person retired. They hired someone to replace her about 2 months before she retired. This coincided with a massive upgrade of the Teapot Records Management system which, to put it lightly, was a clustertruck of epic proportions. Because nothing can go wrong when you upgrade 5 versions at the same time, right? It’s been bad – think 10 minutes for a word document to open. Regularly.

    A couple of weeks ago, the new Teapot Records person submitted his two weeks notice. His manager didn’t know he was looking elsewhere. Manager contacts retiree and asks her to come back part time to keep up the work and train the second new hire (she’s currently overseas so she’ll be in at some point a bit later. I hope she drive a hard bargain).

    Then new guy/soon to be gone guy called in legitimately sick for three days. On his return with a doctor’s note, he arrived at the office to find his security card didn’t work. The manager disabled his card without telling him.

    So that all happened over the past three weeks or so. Today they posted the job.

    Yes, the manager is a piece of work, but she’s all we’ve got right now. What say you?

  172. Er*

    Last week I interviewed an intern candidate for a summer internship at my company. She was a referral with a great resume with past internship experience. I thought she came off very strong in her phone interview and I had mentioned that I wanted to move forward to another round of phone interviews with another colleague of mine. She said she was interested but I haven’t received a ‘thank you’ note from her after our initial interview. Should I still proceed with setting her up with a 2nd interview? Are ‘thank you’ notes not as common anymore? This is my first time overseeing the hiring of interns so I’m new to this process.

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      I send thank-you notes after the final in-person interview; I wouldn’t think to do so after a phone screen. It sounds like your situation might not have that sort of progression (a second round of phone interviews?), or maybe there are geographical restrictions that mean she won’ be interviewing in person. Given all the positive factors you’ve mentioned, I would say not to hesitate in moving her forward. It may be that she wasn’t taught to send an interviewer a thank-you, or she may just be waiting for the conclusion of the interview process.

      1. Er*

        Thanks for the advice. Yes, because of the candidates location (away at school in a different state) we have to hold the interviews over the phone.

    2. S0phieChotek*

      I would proceed; you otherwise really seem to like the candidate.

      (I probably would send a thank-you after a phone interview, as there is no guarantee I would make it all the way through a process, but that’s just me; and in this case it sounds like she knows she is moving forward, so that could change the picture too.)

  173. Mae North*

    Late to the party, but hopefully people are still reading.

    I need some resume advice. I’m just about to finish an assignment to a different department in my workplace, acting in a role completely different from my usual one with all of the responsibilities and job functions but no change to my title in the HRIS SYSTEM – I’ve spent a year acting as Dinnerware Systems Analyst, but my official title is still Senior Teapot Designer.

    There’s no option to make the a Dinnerware position permanent, even though I really want to move into that kind of role, so I need to look for a new job in order to do so. But I’m unsure how to record this on my resume, since any verification with my current employer’s HR department will give Senior Teapot Designer as my job. I’m in an industry where it’s standard for offers to be contingent on checks with the current employer, so it’s likely someone there will be contacted .

    Do I just not include the Analyst role in my resume, even though my candidacy looks like a huge stretch without it? Some kind of note in brackets? Put it like a now all role and just explain when we get to the offer stage? Something else I’m not thinking of?

    1. Soupspoon McGee*

      Address this in your cover letter and highlight your interest in expanding upon that experience! On your resume, use your official title, and include your accomplishments in the new role like so:
      – One loan to Dinnerware Systems:
      * Implemented new process to improve glazing drying time by 50%
      * Developed sales team training resulting in increased customer satisfaction from 80% to 98%

    2. Daniel*

      Can you put bullet points of your job description under each of your positions on your resume?
      Senior Teapot Designer
      -Work as a Dinnerware Systems Analyst perfoming XYZ duties for one year
      -Teapot designer duties

      Job before Senior Teapot Designer
      -job duties

    3. Undine*

      Don’t you list your accomplishments under your title? Say in your cover letter, “I was given a one-year role as acting as a Dinnerware Systems Analyst for a year at my current position, and realized this is something I want to pursue.” Mention a major accomplishment from that tie. Make sure the duties/accomplishments are on your resume. Maybe put in (while acting as Dinnerware Analyst) above those duties on the resume. As long as you’re upfront about the role you had and that you didn’t have the title, and you have a reference who can speak to your abilities in that role, I don’t think it should be a problem. We’ve had a discussion here pointing out that titles vary wildly across companies anyway.

    4. Rubyrose*

      Maybe put in a line saying “Dinnerware Systems Analyst (special assignment)”. Then explain it was for 1 year and the details of what you did.

  174. Daniel*

    One more question for this week:
    How old is to old of a job posting to bother applying for in engineering? Some of the entry-level jobs I’m finding are literally over a year old. Is this normal to find? In my own head the explanations for such old openings are:
    1) Someone forgot to close the position upon hiring someone
    2) They are REALLY picky and hire no one
    3) They reused an old position but the application system didn’t get the memo

    1. Delyssia*

      Or they’ve been hiring multiple people for more or less the same role (especially likely at entry level), and as long as applications are still coming in, they don’t see any reason to close out the posting and open a new one.

      I can’t speak to how normal it is, but I would say there’s no harm in applying. If the job positing is still up, it’s fair game to apply to.

  175. ActualName*

    When I was ten or so and first going through sex ed I was incredibly excited to get my period for the first time. My mom thought it was hilarious and never told me about the major down sides to it. Now that I’m eighteen and will be starting my first job in a little over a month I’m so excited to do my taxes for the first time. I’ve kept recites for a whole bunch of things I can get tax breaks on (mostly things relating to the care and training of my service dog). And… I don’t know. I’m excited! I’m an adult! Responsible! But at the same time I’m kind of aware that there are likely major down sides I don’t know of…

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Am chuckling. Yep, this is it you have arrived. After paying taxes for 10-20 years the excitement changes- it’s more like anger. Because you see what is happening to all that money you gave in.
      But you know, it never stopped me. I was excited about getting a mortgage. Once it sunk in that I am paying for this house FOUR times over, the excitement shifted to upset.
      It goes like this, there is always one more piece to the story line.

      Still, I would never want to go back to being a kid/teen again. There are too many good things to enjoy as an autonomous adult.

  176. StellaRed*

    I had an interview yesterday for a position I’m very excited about. It would give me opportunities to grow in a lot of ways and learn tons of new skills. She’s looking for someone to start soon, and I’m fairly certain she will give me an offer within the next week pending my reference check, so I want to be prepared for that. I’m happy with the pay range, but when looking over the benefit information on their website, I noticed that they didn’t mention any PTO, sick days, vacation, etc. Only 6 paid federal holidays. So, I did some more research on them, and it seems like they don’t offer those benefits at all.

    This is a very small company (~15 employees), and I’d be an office/HR/marketing assistant to the VP. I also might be supervising 1-2 people. At the minimum, I would really like to have some sick days. My previous admin positions all offered PTO/sick leave, so I’ve never had to bring this up before. I’m graduating from college next month and this is entry-level, so I’m not sure how welcome negotiating would be here; I feel like I don’t have any leverage to negotiate. Since it seems like nobody in the company has PTO/sick leave, can I negotiate for this? If so, how many sick days should I ask for?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Start by asking how PTO/sick time is handled.

      You already have figured out that sick time is your biggest concern. Good, you know what you actually need.

      Many places do not offer sick time the first year. Or some offer a few days.

      You’re right in that there is not much room for you to leverage things. And it is not good if no one else has sick time. You can always chose to decline the offer. And there is nothing wrong with asking them how they handle PTO/sick time- that question alone, with no follow up, is not considered negotiating. It’s just a question.

      Take a look at the package, everything they are offering and ask yourself, “Do I think I can do better if I keep looking?” If you decline, do not think that they will come chasing you and begging you to sign on. They may or may not, high chance of NOT. Only decline, if you are sure declining is right for you.

      1. StellaRed*

        Thanks for sharing your perspective! I definitely don’t expect them to chase me down if I decline. I just don’t know if I can afford to decline; I need to start working ASAP. I love everything I’m hearing about this job except for the leave policies. I’ve worked in food service off and on for years when I couldn’t get better jobs, an industry where paid leave is almost unheard of, so I’m kinda used to it at this point. I can do it, but I really, really don’t like dragging myself to work sick (who would? haha). So if they don’t offer it, I suppose that I’ll have to decide if not having sick leave is a big enough deal to me. I’m only planning on staying for about 2 years until I’m ready for grad school, so it might be worth it to get these valuable skills.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure where you are going with this question. My guess would be some think well of the school and some could not care less.
      Either way, employers do not hire schools, they hire people. A person could go to the best school on earth and be a bad fit for a given employer or a that person could be a jackass and no employer would hire them.
      There’s lots of things to consider when hiring. Education is only one aspect.

        1. S0phieChotek*

          Probably. But honestly, I think most of people of “heard” of most major Universities…University of X State…..

          I think the type of schools that get by just by name to “everyone” tend to be Yale, Harvard, Princeton…

          I am sure Univerity of Pennsylvania is prestigious and maybe, depending on the field and even specific department, maybe people (employers/HR/non-academics) would know that to graduate from the Universit of Pennsylvania with a Degree in X is amazing/great catch, etc.

          But like Not So New Reader said—employers hire people, not schools…so I would think other factors also play a big role in hiring…if that is what you are getting at.

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