open thread – May 13-14, 2016

by Alison Green on May 13, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread — as well as my birthday! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,341 comments }

{ 1,341 comments… read them below }

  1. Mockingjay*

    I’ve started a list of my favorite AAM aphorisms and quotes.

    #1: Hanukkah Balls!
    Voluntold
    “This is how we do it here, Bob.”
    “No, no, no. Don’t do that.”
    Culture fit
    Co-irker

    What are yours?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Your boss sucks, and she isn’t going to change. (Was that it? That’s how I remember it.)

    5. Revolver Rani*

      I learned “bitch eating crackers” here and I love love love it and have introduced all my friends to the concept.

      (For those who don’t know, the phrase refers to that situation where someone just gets on your nerves SO MUCH that any small thing the person does annoys you, as in: “Look at that bitch eating crackers like she owns the place.” It’s such a great insight on how we respond to people we don’t like, and a great reminder to be objective when evaluating how out-of-line someone’s behavior is. Love it!)

      1. GOG11*

        BEC is PERFECT for describing that particular flavor of annoyance, and the struggle of reacting professionally when you’re at that level with someone.

      4. Mander*

        I too have explained this concept to many people. I don’t even know the actual origin of the phrase but it’s infinitely useful!

      2. ithinkyouhavemystapler*

        I love this one too. I say it all the time so it made me so so happy to see Allison use it like I would.

    9. MsMaryMary*

      “Is this the hill you want to die on?” and its variations. I might have heard the phrase before I started reading this site, but it’s AAM that I think of when I use it. And it’s great advice! Pick your battles, people.

      1. the_scientist*

        My partner had never heard this phrase before I introduced him to it, and it has now become one of his favourites! I think it’s an excellent life lesson.

    10. Confused Publisher*

      I also really really like that we are all Teapot Designers and Teapot Analysts working on Chocolate, Caramel and Vanilla Teapots, whether spout or handle or body.

    11. LSCO*

      The name Wakeen. I really wanted to call one of my hamsters Wakeen, but was overruled :-(

        1. nutella fitzgerald*

          “Ack” and its family of distress are my favorites, so I would like to imagine your Gravatar retreated into the shadows to let them shine :’)

      2. Amber T*

        Whyyyy did we never get an update to that one? I think that was one of (if not, the actual) first AAM articles I read. It was a great way to start!

        1. Emmy*

          We did and it was … disappointing… They decided it wasn’t that big of a deal or something. I know someone will be able to find it.

          1. B*

            I REALLY want an update on the update. It’s been almost a year…. what’s the current status!?

            1. Snork Maiden*

              MEMORANDUM

              To: All

              An update on the status of Duck Club will be held in Conference Room B at 3:45 pm. Please bring something to write on and a change of underwear. Attendance is at your discretion.

              Sincerely,
              Your Duck Club executive.

          2. KK*

            I really wondered if this was Zenefits after the news came out that they were having crazy parties and finding condoms in odd locations.

          3. Chaordic One*

            While not as quite as sordid as the Duck Club, at my former workplace (an office with a very casual dress code) there was a thing called “Freeballing Fridays” where the young people in the office (both male and female) went “commando” and did not wear underwear.

    15. Bekx*

      I really want to cross stitch all of these and hang them above my office door now. Thanks a lot, guys.

    20. Gene*

      My question, who owns the rights to things like Hannukkah Balls or Wakeen?

      >He asks while sipping coffee from his Chocolate Teapots, LTD. mug<

    21. PlainJane*

      How about, “Also, your boss is an ass.” I crack up every time I see that one.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        Another may baby! yay! Happy Birthday Alison. Thanks for putting up this blog, and everything that you do! :)

      3. Christopher Tracy*

        High fives to all the May babies here! (My bday was Tuesday.)

        Happy birthday, Allison!

    4. Liana*

      Wait, how do you know it’s her birthday?? Did I miss something??

      Also, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      Yes, for your birthday you have greetings from all over the world. How cool is that?!

      Happy birthday from Washington state.

      1. Jules the First*

        Happy Birthday Alison!
        Hope you get to spend it doing your favourite things!

      1. JaneB*

        Happy Birthday from Northern England, to add to the international variants… hope your kitties didn’t provide birthday hairballs for clearing up or anything hideous like that…

    20. Gene*

      Yay for beating Death another year!

      I turn 60 next week. As does my wife; but she won’t even say the number. :-)

      1. Jessica (tc)*

        That’s what we say! I got that card for a family member once, and now it’s how we say it to each other. :)

        Happy birthday, Alison!

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Hah! You saw open thread and didn’t even read how it started: “It’s the Friday open thread — as well as my birthday!”

    48. junipergreen*

      Wishing you a very happy birthday! I love this site and it has seen me through so much. Thank you for your hard work!!

    49. GreenTeaPot*

      Happy birthday, Alison. Thank you for sage advice and all you do to help us navigate life and work. :)

    50. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Happy birthday! Thank you for continuing to run this awesome site, and put up with our giant pain in the butt selves.

    53. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you had a great day.
      And I hope you print out all these birthday wishes and hang them on the wall for a bit.

    56. Dot Warner*

      Happy birthday, Alison! (The timestamp will say 5/14, but I live on the West Coast and here it’s still your birthday for another 48 minutes. :) )

    59. Me2*

      Happy belated birthday! I was out of town without internet access for eight days so just catching up on things. I hope you had a wonderful day.

  3. AnonymouslyAnonymous*

    I’m an internal candidate for an in-person job interview, but I just saw another job opening at a place where I used to work. Should I go for it?

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      You can keep trying for both. Learn more about them ,see how far you get in the processes, and then make a choice.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      Until you have a written offer in hand, go for everything! Operate as if you don’t have a new job yet, because until then you don’t know what might happen.

    3. Liana*

      Definitely go for it! Just because you’re applying as an internal candidate doesn’t mean you’re only allowed to apply at that one job. Proceed like you would in a regular job search until you have an offer in hand.

    6. SophieChotek*

      I agree if you’re interested in both, apply for both. Having two different opportunities might also help you evaluate the pros & cons of both jobs.

    7. Camellia*

      Well, you “used to work” there. Why don’t you work there any more? And if the reason you left is still there/still bad, are you sure you want to go back?

  5. Anon Mouse*

    It’s now two weeks past the decision deadline for a job opening I interviewed with as a finalist over three weeks ago. I’ve not spoken with them since my thank you email following the interview so I want to reach out one time before I put it entirely out of my mind as a no-go.

    Any tips for phrasing in that email? I want to keep it short and sweet so I was thinking something like ‘I wanted to ask if there had been any progress made with the Teapot Maker opening’.

    And should the response be a ‘thanks but no thanks’, would it be appropriate to send an email asking if they might keep me in mind for future positions and reiterating my hope to work for them in the future?

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Seconded! Short and sweet is good- and reiterating your interest in their organization politely is never a bad thing

    2. Ms. Didymus*

      I am on the opposite end of this. I intereviewed an amazing candidate and would love to extend an offer. I wanted to do it several weeks ago. However we have a new system that requires the sign off of a lot of people and several of them have been involved in high priority projects or on PTO.

      I’m concerned I’m going to lose my candidate over this. I’ve made sure they know where we are but…ugh how long can I really expect someone to stick around!?

      1. Anon Moose*

        Not too long, unless its an industry without a lot of similar jobs. Chances are, if you want them someone else will too. If you’re their first choice they’ll maybe wait… but if they have another offer pending then probably not.

      2. Rocky*

        Ugh. I had to deal with this last year during the holidays. Fortunately I’m allowed to do a (totally non-binding) verbal offer before the formal written offer, which is contingent on two signatures and a background check. The candidate told me she had a competing offer she had to respond to in the next two days, but would prefer our position if it was offered. All I could do was be super transparent about what was happening, without overcommitting. I felt like I could reasonably say, “I’m waiting for someone who is out of town to sign off, but I’m pushing to get you an offer letter by tomorrow evening at the latest.” But I knew I’d probably lose the candidate if I couldn’t make that happen.

      3. MeridaAnn*

        Be sure to keep her in the loop! You don’t want her to be in the same position as Anon Mouse, without any information about her status – then she might assume that the job fell through or she’ll at least be annoyed by being left in the dark, which I imagine might even make her less likely to accept the offer if she sees it as a sign of disorganization / disrespect of her time.

        I don’t know if you’re allowed to tell her that she’s your expected pick or not, but at least let her know that she is a finalist and that there has been a delay due to your new system and you’re just waiting on final sign-offs before formalizing the decision / offer. I’d expect you’ll get a lot more patience from her if you keep her informed about what’s happening.

        1. Ms. Didymus*

          Thanks everyone, I have been very upfront with the candidate. They know they are my choice and that this is not about them – at all – but instead about a new process that is running into some hurdles.

          I am lucky in that they are currently working and only passively searching but ugh I worry that this makes our company look flakey.

          1. AdAgencyChick*

            I’m late to the party on this, but…

            Don’t just be upfront with the candidate. Be upfront with your company’s management about what bureaucracy might cost them, especially if good candidates are hard to come by. Is there someone — your manager, perhaps — who can run this up the food chain and say, “I’m afraid I’m going to lose this candidate because Wakeen, Jane, and Valentina are out — is there any way we can expedite the process?”

      4. Mike C.*

        They’ll stick around longer if you keep in touch with them. Also, if you lose this guy, make sure that your superiors know that the extended time and lack of availability (they don’t delegate signature authority?) were key issues.

      5. Sarah*

        I would be sure you keep in communication with the candidate. Reiterate your interest and ask them to keep them apprised of competing offers as you work through your processes.

  6. NarrowDoorways*

    Salary negotiation experience to share!

    My company is really hurting to add people in one particular department. We lost 3 people in a very short time for reasons like a spouse transfer or switching to work with family.

    Because we’re looking for people to start immediately, the company is primarily using temp agencies (rarely need 2 weeks notice). We give the set salary rate and say the intention is to hire them in 3 months with a raise.

    We had a few interviews, but one of the first interviews was perfect. Competent, knowledgeable, intelligent, professional. She was offered the job.

    She told the temp agency she’d come on, but only for a dollar higher rate. The temp agency advised us to immediately reject her! Apparently they “don’t pay that game.”

    The CEO slept on it and decided she’d meet halfway at 50 cents extra an hour, again emphasizing that in 3 months she’d be hired at a much higher rate.

    The interviewee refused and said a full dollar or nothing. So she gets nothing and we’ve wasted time focusing on making it work for her.

    I’m so disappointed with both sides. She knew the rate when she interviewed and had already decided it wasn’t enough. It’s unfortunate that so many people on my end reacted poorly to an attempt at negotiation, especially considering she probably was worth a higher rate and we are in need. But also, I’m surprised the interviewee didn’t meet the company halfway.

    Ugh. The whole situation frustrates me.

    1. esra*

      That is a bummer. Pay negotiations are so fraught. Was she told what the higher rate in 3 months would be?

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        Yeah. The only reason for a three month wait is because my company doesn’t like to pay the super high flat fee to the temp agency to cut them out. So we need the agency to get someone immediately, but then are stuck with them until the flat fee prices lowers after 3 months.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Maybe I’m not getting all the details here, but it sounds to me as if the interviewee was in the right, unless the job posting (or temp agency contract) said specifically that there’s no negotiations for salary. And the fact that the candidate was able to walk away means your company needed her more than she needed you all.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        See, that surprised me too! I don’t know what the temp agency would immediately recommend against negotiating with her.

        I think the fact that we didn’t meet her price and cut her loose shows neither of us needed each other that much.

        1. Brett*

          At least for agencies I dealt with in the past, if an employee starts at a higher rate, the agency eats 50-100% of that increase in wages, and eats 100% of any increase in taxes and benefits from the increase in wages.
          This might not be the case with your contract, but it could be the case with other contracts they have, leading to a company-wide policy.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      “A higher rate in three months” so often translates to “oops, nevermind” that I don’t blame her for trying to get higher to start. Once you’ve started, you’ve lost a lot of negotiation power. She didn’t know that for you it actually did mean something.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        This. I would never accept that kind of future promise unless it was part of a contract.

        1. NarrowDoorways*

          That would absolutely worry me, too! My sister temped for a while and I remember them promising and promising to hire her on. Ended up taking a 4 months longer than they’re initially said. If you budget your life for a certain rate, it doesn’t make sense to accept below that.

          1. Anonsie*

            I’m third this one, I wouldn’t trust your company to stick to this agreement and I wouldn’t be too impressed by them deciding 50cents an hour is worth telling me to take a walk. If I were her I’d probably have bounced too.

      2. Ama*

        Yeah, I’ve been burned so many times by empty promises about salary and promotions for jobs I was already in that I’d be extra wary if an employer wanted to *start* our relationship making a promise about a future raise, unless I could get something in writing that was actually enforceable.

      4. Stranger than fiction*

        However, I do think it’s more common for temps to get higher pay when they go perm. But the usual direct hire given the line about revising it at some point? No.

    4. matcha123*

      I’m not familiar with temp companies in general, but did the CEO or people from your company speak directly with her, or did they tell the temp company?
      I mean, if they told the temp company, and this is the same company that said to ditch her because she asked for more, I wouldn’t be surprised if they told her that your company wouldn’t budge.

      1. K.*

        Usually the agency handles all money discussion – the company pays the agency, the agency pays the temp. I’ve done contract work through agencies and have hired temps through agencies, and that’s how it’s always worked.

        1. NarrowDoorways*

          All salary discussions when though the agency. I can’t imagine they’d lie though. What would they gain? But then I can’t imagine why they’d recommend not negotiating with her either!

          1. Anon Moose*

            All you’d need is one cranky employee at the agency who adhered to their policy and not yours (whether authorized to do so or not). Its entirely possible it never got to the potential employee.

          2. Stardust*

            I have a story. I had an interview with a temp and asked her about pay. She told me she made X. Then when I reached out to the temp agency to bring her on board the agency told me she was looking for a higher rate. The temp agency flat out lied to me, saying the temp had just received a raise at her current job. It’s possible the temp agency is trying to up the rate so they charge the company.

      1. K.*

        I wouldn’t negotiate, but I HAVE held firm to my guns about my minimum required rate (and been prepared to let a job go if it was below that rate) and been offered more by the agency after doing so. Like “We have something at $X an hour.” “Sorry, my minimum is $X+5 an hour.” “OK, we’ll submit you at $X+5.”

        1. NarrowDoorways*

          So you wouldn’t have gone to the interview in the first place? Because she knew the offered salary going into the interview. I haven’t temped in a good ten years, but I think I remember just turning down the agency when they’d suggest places below my rate.

          1. Tuckerman*

            “Because she knew the offered salary going into the interview.”
            But that’s just it. An offer is up for negotiation. If it is non-negotiable, that is out of the realm of what is expected in most fields. I’d absolutely negotiate a temp agency offer because the temp agency takes a sizable cut of the billed rate; to secure the account, the agency may be willing to take a slightly smaller cut.

          2. K.*

            No, I wouldn’t have – as you say, I’d just turn down the agency. I’d say “I can’t do it for less than $Y, thanks anyway” and fully expect that to be the end of it – but occasionally the agencies have come back and been able to meet me at $Y. I never expected them to, though. Tf they can’t budge, no harm no foul – I just don’t move forward. I wouldn’t negotiate after an offer because that is Not Done with contract work in the same way it’s done with salaried positions (although again, I don’t apply to salaried positions with salaries that are below my minimum, because what if they don’t budge on negotiation?), so you need to iron all that out before you even get the ball rolling.

    6. TCO*

      That was short-sighted of your CEO. An extra dollar an hour for three months is $520 (so you could argue it was also short-sighted of the temp to walk away over the offer falling just $260 short). I can see why she and the temp agency might be taken aback by a temp trying to negotiate, but your CEO should have overridden the agency and hired the temp.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        I think it really spiraled. Instead of “she knows her worth,” it became this weird discussion about her attitude and the idea that if you give an inch, she’ll be so full of herself later she’ll think she calls all the shots.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I think both your company and the temp agency have picked up the mindset that people should be happy for whatever work they can get rather than that people get to decide what they’re worth and ask for that.

          If somebody is regularly getting rejected for the rate they think they’re worth, that’s one thing. But you guys also have to remember on her end – she doesn’t get the full rate you’re paying for those 3 months. She gets a portion of it while the temp agency takes a large chunk. So she’s not just getting less than the rate you’re hiring her on for later, she’s also getting less than even what you’d be paying her now for those 3 months.

          I suspect the agency doesn’t want to deal with people who might then start to think about negotiating their percentage rates *with them*, so they stamp hard on that kind of initiative.

          1. hbc*

            Yeah, our temp and recruiting agencies can get a little…irritated about employees who make their lives more difficult, and lose sight of whether that actually makes the person a bad candidate for us. I actually got warned because one guy (who was pretty great) wasn’t putting in notice until we were past the background and reference checks. I’m like, “That’s smart. He doesn’t know if I’ll freak out about a drug arrest from ’91 or if one of his references will sabotage him.”

            They’re human, they’re going to prefer the people who are easy on them, which is usually the meek people who go where they’re told and take what they’re offered. But a lot of those “difficult” people end up being the best employees in the long run.

        2. Camellia*

          I’m curious though – discussion with whom? Were you talking directly with the candidate and that is how she came across in the discussions? Or were you actually talking to the temp company who was “reporting” her attitude? I am always extremely skeptical about second-hand opinions and information.

          1. NarrowDoorways*

            Sorry, the above may have been confusing. The discussion between the agency and my company (HR/CEO/the rest of us). She didn’t have an attitude. She was a strong woman confident in her abilities.

            But the temp agency and my company were reading that a potential attitude could arise because of this. It’s the stupid idea that if she successfully argued for the higher rate, she’d see it as a reason to argue everything later on. Like the “Give an inch and they’ll take a mile.”

            1. Anonymous Educator*

              In a perfect world, I would agree with that assessment, but in our current cultural context, the norm is that negotiating is what you’re supposed to do, and you’re leaving money on the table if you don’t, and employers may even lose respect for you if you don’t negotiate. With all that societal messaging, even people who wouldn’t otherwise push for things will still negotiate hard on salary.

              If we can change the culture so that employers just pay at or above market rate and give raises when merited (not asked for—merited), then I will fully agree (in that very different world) someone pushing for an extra dollar may just be pushy in general. In our current world, not so much…

            2. SAHM*

              Would they have reacted the same way about the “attitude” if it had been a man who requested more?

            3. Not So NewReader*

              Five hundred dollars is not an inch, though,it’s like a quarter of an inch. It’s kind of strange that they were so steadfast. And I wonder if she sees your company as miserly.

        3. Anonsie*

          That’s a prevalent but gross attitude and she’s probably all the better for not walking into it, honestly. It sounds like the temp agency / your CEO assume this is a game because they’re playing one, and dropping fifty cents was a power play more than anything else.

          1. NarrowDoorways*

            Meh. There’s a million better reasons for me to side-eye my company. This is just a drop in the bucket.

    7. animaniactoo*

      fwiw, I did not accept my current company’s half-way offer back when I was first dealing with them. We did have an established relationship, but I also knew that given what I needed to have in order to be able to afford my life (rent, health insurance as they didn’t offer it at the time, etc.) it didn’t meet my minimum requirement, and I had the leeway to keep looking. So I held firm and they came back and accepted it.

      What you may not realize is that her dollar above offer was her attempt to meet halfway to begin with, and it was her bare minimum she could accept.

      1. animaniactoo*

        also fwiw, I would see the halfway offer from you as translating to “and the higher rate 3 months down the road will also be less than I am willing to work for, given that you’re not willing to go this high now.”

      2. overeducated*

        Yeah, I don’t think the temp did anything wrong here. There is a minimum I need to make to pay my bills that is, unfortunately, higher than the rate many jobs in my field pay, and that determines what jobs I can take. I can’t work for less for the sake of “meeting halfway,” and have had to turn down or withdraw from what sound like pretty great jobs as a result; maybe your possible hire couldn’t either. Sorry everyone wound up losing in this situation.

    8. New Girl*

      Back in my temping days, I told the agency that I would only work for $x/hour. They sent me on an interview and didn’t disclose the pay until after I was asked to take it on (hindsight, I should have asked before taking the interview). It was $2 lower an hour than my requirements so I stuck to my guns at $x/hour. They were kinda mad at me but I ended up getting my requirement.

      1. animaniactoo*

        I was working with a placement agency, not a temp, but I had the same thing happen. Except the company couldn’t meet my minimum, and they looked like they really regretted it. To a large extent, I still think it was their loss and shortsighted of them, because they came back to me twice to ask me to reconsider after I completed their one-hour field test in 15 minutes – absolutely perfectly, above and beyond what they would have considered acceptable. I understand that they had a pay structure and limitations around that, but it was pretty clear that they’d more than have gotten the volume out of me to justify the additional cost. I liked the company and the work, but I just couldn’t go significantly backwards from where I was to make that work for them.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Yeah, we use temp agencies frequently and unless I knew the backstage conversations on this one, I wouldn’t be 100% convinced the issue was the potential temp.

        IF the employer said to the agency, $18 an hour firm, and IF the agency said to the temp, this interview I’m sending you on is for a job that pays $18 an hour firm, the potential temp did indeed waste everybody’s time and make the agency look bad to the employer.

        I’ve found the quality of communication from agencies to their temps to be all over the place. (And, of course, I drop agencies with poor communication.)

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Meaning, hourly temp positions with a firm $ rather than a range are not intended to be negotiated. That’s part of what you are buying when you contract an agency. They are sending you people who will work at the rate you’ve set.

          We have some jobs like that (think, sub for the receptionist for two weeks) and we have some jobs at a range because we will pay more for more qualified candidates. We’ll negotiate a range.

    9. Angela*

      As a temp, it would never occur to me to negotiate, but I also see her point. The “higher rate” I was promised that last time I was a temp ended up being a 0.15/hr increase when I was brought on full-time.

    10. newbie*

      Is it typical for temps to negotiate salary? I was under the impression that the time to negotiate salary was when you were offered a permanent position.

    11. The Butcher of Luverne*

      “Competent, knowledgeable, intelligent, professional.”

      I can’t help but think it’s worth AT LEAST a dollar more an hour.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        I’d have said $10 more an hour. (But then I think that way about myself, too!)

    12. TootsNYC*

      If you are in need, maybe other companies are too, and she’s got other options.

      Though it is too bad–let’s see: 50¢ per hour = $4/day = $20/wk = $80/month = $240/3 months.

      So for $240, she passed up a very strong shot at a permanent job.

      Then again, that’s nearly a plane ticket home for me to see my dad.

      1. TootsNYC*

        And, for $240, spread out over 3 months, your company passed up a quick solution to a big problem.

        Too bad nobody did the actual math!

      2. Christina*

        This is like what my mom told me when I was negotiating buying my first place. The seller and I were quibbling over $1,000 in the asking price, my mom pointed out “do you really want to lose a place that has so much of what you want over something that, in the long run, ends up adding about 3 cents to your monthly payment?”

        I love my home :-)

  7. Pickle*

    I’m in a bit of a pickle at the moment. In a few months I am planning to leave my current job to pursue a new opportunity. However, as I tend to be quite risk-averse (read: paranoid), I don’t want to give notice until everything is confirmed.

    There’s about a three-week window between the time I’ll have confirmation and the time I have to leave, so I should still be able to give a decent amount of notice. Also, that would happen during a quiet time in our business cycle so it shouldn’t throw client deadlines out of whack.

    The problem is, our team is quite stretched at the moment (there were two rounds of layoffs not long ago), and the hiring process for this organisation is agonisingly slow (one such process was started in January and is still dragging on). On top of that, one of my teammates is going on vacation right around that time, so that’s not going to help either.

    So basically, is there anything I can do in the meantime to help the transition down the line? I’ve started putting together some documentation for my role, including contact information etc. So…beyond that, what else would be helpful?

    1. Terra*

      If you’re in the kind of role where you’re going to be leaving some things mid project then I’d definitely get together what you’ve started on any ongoing projects as well as notes on what’s left to be done. If you were writing documentation for example you’d want the documentation you’d started (or to tell people clearly where it could be found) and then for the parts you probably weren’t going to be able to finish I’d put in the major section headers and then a brief blurb of “this needs to talk about how you create a new item in the system, remember you’re waiting for the IT department to fix the bug where long item names crash the form – ticket number 73” or whatever so whoever picks up after you knows what was supposed to go there and that they need to check that problem was resolved also.

    2. Student*

      You can start letting yourself off the hook for what happens to the organization after you leave. That’s the best thing you can do to make the transition go smoothly – release yourself from feeling like it is solely your obligation to make the transition go well.

      Be professional, be polite, hand off your work. If they don’t pick it up and run with it when you put it down, that’s on them – not you. If they’re too short-handed to handle a little turnover during a slow time, that’s on them – not you.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I agree–as a manager, it’s my job to be prepared should one of my people leave, even if it’s at an inconvenient time.

        Sometimes that means I just have to do some of their job. usually it means I need to always be doing some low-level recruiting (not low-level in status, but in effort) and networking (here’s where networking helps hiring managers–THIS is their payoff). I’m lucky in that I hire a lot of freelancers, so that’s easy.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I agree with what others said. It sounds like you are being very thoughtful, trying to plan ahead, get documentation and procedures prepared ahead of time. (And don’t get sucked back into working for Old Company as you try to adjust to New Opportunity, unless you’re a consultant or its in your terms, etc.)

      As I (vaguely) recall, AAM has often said, companies/bosses have to be prepared for the nature of real life, employees unexpectedly come and go and it makes no sense to delay one’s departure over worrying how a company will function (not that you were doing that anyway).

      The timing (with layoffs, vacation) is unfortunate, but often there rarely is a “right” time–something always comes up.

    4. animaniactoo*

      Remembering that they did this to themselves (the company) when they stretched themselves so thin with those layoffs. There may have been good reason for it, but they put themselves in exactly this kind of danger. Doesn’t even have to be an employee purposely leaving for a better opportunity, could simply have a family emergency, etc.

      So, try to leave your files/projects as organized as possible, and leave whatever documentation you can. But otherwise, don’t beat yourself up about this.

  8. Fawn*

    Any advice in working on a committee with strong faculty egos in an academic environment? I’m interviewing for a position next week that includes representing my department on a committee of academics with a reputation for being a little difficult and fly by night with their application of policy (I’d be the rep for the policy part of the committee). I know that the interview is going to include a question on how to work with a group of assertive academics, so I’d love some ideas to consider while I’m brainstorming interview responses over the weekend.

    1. Liana*

      Oh man. Working with strong faculty egos is my ENTIRE JOB, so I feel you. It really does depend on the faculty member in particular, but one of the things that has worked well for me is essentially just listening and waiting. It can be really difficult to try and change someone’s mind in the heat of the moment (one of the doctors I support has a tendency to dig his heels in on a decision, even when I just know it’s a bad idea), so I do this thing where I listen and nod noncommittally during our meeting, and then a couple hours later follow up with an email, or spreadsheet, or whatever detailing the better idea I had, but in a way that still sounds like we collaborated on it, rather than “Here is this idea that’s better than yours.”

      Of course, you can’t really say all that in an interview, so I’d recommend saying something like “I would make sure to listen to all sides of an argument, and make an effort to understand where [faculty member] is coming from, before suggesting a solution.” It might also be helpful to throw in a mention about how important it is to have a thick skin during these meetings, because if the interviewer knows that you’ll be working with strong egos, she’ll want to know that you’re able to handle it. I work with surgeons, who are notoriously abrasive at times, and having a thick skin is like, the #1 most important quality you can have in this job.

      1. Ama*

        Seconding all of this. In my current job there were several questions about handling difficult faculty (I’m not in academia but my job handles a volunteer committee full of academics) — if you can point to example of any previous projects where you’ve had to run a high stakes meeting or juggle competing egos (uh, don’t use that phrase if you can help it) it can go a long way towards reassuring your interviewer. I think with a lot of those roles they want to make sure you understand that you have to act in a way that sticks up for your department’s needs and goals but doesn’t piss people off unnecessarily.

      2. AnotherTeacher*

        +1 to ensuring you communicate your ability to work with strong personalities.

        This also sounds like an issue of balancing the big picture. Use those listening skills to determine if the hiring committee is looking for someone to reign in the department in terms of policy compliance. They may not want to say so explicitly, as it indicates problems or weaknesses; but, covertly, they may be looking for someone to enforce tough and/or unpopular decisions.

    2. Stephanie*

      Have you worked in other places with strong personalities? I know one university search committee that ended up hiring someone who had worked with lawyers because the candidate could demonstrate their “thick skin.”

      1. the gold digger*

        In my organizational behavior class in grad school, the prof told us that one of the hardest jobs is being a (non-physician) hospital administrator – that the docs don’t want to listen to anyone who is not also a doctor.

  9. ActualName*

    I decided to try to write a “novel” in 5 days, writing 10,000 words a day. I’m half way through today’s word goal.

      1. ActualName*

        I have a couple of tricks. Many I’m doing this to try to break my habit of editing while I write, so when I come to a part that is either going to be difficult for me to make perfect the first time, or when I’m itching to rewrite what I just wrote I write bad, summary style sentences along the likes of, “The blanket looked like this.” or “And then this happened.” So that I don’t loose momentum.

        I take a break every 1,000 words to stretch. Then, when I’m feeling unmottived or stuck I stand up and pace while either swearing under my breath (I have no idea why this helps but it does) or I say things like, “I am the champ! I rock! I just wrote a crap ton of words! So many words! I can do this! I am the bomb dot com. Go me! Caw! Caw! Fear me!” I also shake it out or play a little tug of war with my dog until I feel focused again.

        I have what is a combination of the outline / first draft done. It’s 6k long right now. So I’m taking a break to rest my brain. When I come back to it I’ll just be beefing up me sentences that are along the lines of “Susan and Tom discuss magic. Exposition happens.”

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Ahahah, I have to do that–so I don’t stop and look stuff up if I don’t know something. I’ll write something like, “Bob took the part off the thing and put it in the doohickey CHECK” and then go back and search for those later. Otherwise, I stop, go online, and look up doohickeys and before I know it, an hour has gone by.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          What we tell ourselves can make a huge difference in outputs.

          I had to do some basket arrangements for the holidays at one place I worked. I had to do quite a few of them one day, so I decided to test out this positive thinking stuff. With each basket I thought about the person who might receive it and may they have a great holiday, etc.

          When I finished all the baskets, I looked at them and thought they came out pretty good. (I am pretty critical of my work.) What happened next was amazing. I was getting compliments and people were buying the baskets. “I don’t know what there is about this basket, but it looks so nice I have to buy one for my friend Jane…”

          Of course, there are externals that influence our outputs. But I do believe how we talk to ourselves matters. A lot.

        3. Nye*

          I love this trick! I do a lot of academic writing, and can easily spend hours on a single sentence. (Usually because I’m looking up references, leading me down the rabbit hole of academic papers even tangentially related to the topic.) Sometimes, just to get things moving, I’ll use WriteOrDie to get the framework down and bypass the editorial part off my brain. E.g., “DISCUSS TEAPOT SPOUT MORPHOLOGICAL EVOLUTION.”

          It’s a huge help! If I can work my way to your method, of moving on by default (rather with an external tool making awful noises and dropping spiders down the screen when I lag), that would be perfect.

          Good luck!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s quite ambitious. I think NaNoWriMo is about 50,000 words in 30 days. Go you!

      I’m in the process of writing a novel, but I’m far less ambitious. My goal is just to write at least one sentence a day. Sometimes I wrote more.

      1. ActualName*

        NaNoWriMo is actually what inspired me. November is not a good month for me to write during, especally because it is in the middle of the school year and also happens to be the start of my “dormant” season. So I decided “Why should I wait until November to try this? I have the time now.” I figure that if I prove myself that I can do this in 5 days I can start getting first drafts of long projects out at least once every month. I really want to be a writer, and I figure the first thing I have to do is actually finish a project.

        I thought about putting together a collection of poems I’ve written or so forth, but this honestly seemed more do-able.

        1. JaneB*

          There’s a NaNoWriMo ‘Camp’ in July or in April every year, if you want to do something like this again but not in November…

    5. Nova Terra*

      Wow! I find it frustrating enough to write 1,000-2,000 words a day, and those are 1) good days and 2) spaced apart. I can’t imagine 10,000 words a day! Go you :D

  10. DCGirl*

    Here’s something that really bothers me about my employer….

    My employer offers two categories of leave in addition to vacation time: annual sick leave and extended leave. Extended leave can be used for illnesses lasting from 3 to 10 workdays (yours or a family member, doctor’s note needed), maternity/paternity leave, and extended bereavement leave (when there’s overseas travel or the person is the executor of the will).

    The issue I’m seeing is that HR actively discourages employees whose illnesses are over three but under 10 days from applying for FMLA because it’s covered under extended leave. You can walk into HR, ask for the necessary forms, and be turned down if you have enough days in your extended leave bank. “You have enough leave in your extended leave bank; you don’t need to apply for FMLA,” is the standard response. One daring employee downloaded the form off the Internet and had his doctor’s office complete it. HR was not amused but had to accept it. Their attitude was kind of, “How dare you!”

    In one case, an employee missed five days in March (serious car accident, including brief hospitalization) and then five days in November (bad case of the flu which brought on an asthma crisis, resulting in brief hospitalization).

    She was actively discouraged by HR from filing for FMLA for both situations because they were “covered by extended leave.” After the second, her supervisor informed her that she had two “incidents of unplanned absence for the year” and that any future absences will be looked at very critically. I think both absences would have otherwise been covered by FMLA had she not been discouraged from filing for it. Five incidents can lead to termination. I also think that there’s a world of difference between a good employee who has an awful run of luck and a not-so-good employee who calls in sick on Mondays and Fridays when it comes to counting incidents of unplanned absence.

    This is a company that really, really discourages people from taking sick leave. It was visibly perturbed when its municipality adopted a law requiring employers to provide seven days of sick leave per year. We get five days of annual sick leave and five days of extended leave. Thanks to the law, you’re now supposed to be able to use two days of extended leave, after your annual sick leave is exhausted, to meet the City law, but I know people who’ve had issues doing so (particularly new employees who may not have much sick leave accrued). The employee handbook, although revised since the law was passed, is strangely silent on the ability to dip into the extended leave bank without meeting the three-day minimum and getting the doctor’s note.

    I don’t disagree that the extended leave program benefits employees in some ways. It’s great that you can use it to extend bereavement leave when needed (I needed an extra day to clean out my father’s apartment at the assisted living facility after he died so that we didn’t go into the next month and have to pay). It’s great to have a bank of paid leave to draw on in case of major illness. I just can’t help but think that the company is on very thin ice with regard to FMLA and the City law. What do you all think?

    1. esra*

      Admittedly speaking as a Canadian, but that sucks. It gets my back up when a company so strongly discourages employees from taking leave or assistance to which they are entitled.

    2. Seal*

      People get sick. Accidents happen. Any employer that doesn’t understand that is one I don’t want to work for.

      2. Katie F*

        Many employers sincerely believe that benefits are a gift they provide their very best employees because they’re just so super wonderful, not a part of the employee’s overall compensation package and therefore essentially as aspect of their salary. So any employee who actually USES that benefit is clearly taking advantage of the employer, rather than accessing their compensation.

        1. Faith*

          At the same time, whenever you try to negotiate your salary, these companies will be the first ones to point out their “wonderful benefits package” that clearly should make up for below the market salary they are offering.

    3. LawCat*

      The employer doesn’t trust it’s employees. Telling an employee who has been hospitalized that because of those absences “any future absences will be looked at very critically” is ridiculous.

      1. Laura*

        Exactly. I was hospitalized after a car accident and management made it clear that they no longer saw me as a valuable member of the team, and that I should worry about my job’s future (or lack thereof). When I returned to work, I started looking for a new job.

      2. Katie F*

        After I returned from (unpaid) maternity leave, my boss at the time made many disparaging comments about me “going on vacation” and how disappointed he was that I didn’t have to ask HIS permission to do so. Eventually HR had to sit him down and explain that FMLA is not vacation and he could be written up for his (constant, repeated) references to it as such.

        He threw a HUGE fit when I wanted a day off around Christmas that same year, because I’d “used up my vacation”. When I pointed out the aforementioned “that ain’t vacation” and also that our vacation had just rolled over, so no I hadn’t used up any such thing, he was so furious he ended up leaving the office for the rest of the day to complain to HR about how an employee who takes FMLA shouldn’t be allowed new vacation time.

        1. KR*

          I feel like that’s pregnancy discrimination. If you were a man and had been out on FMLA for an illness, would he be as mad? Probably not.

        2. Faith*

          how disappointed he was that I didn’t have to ask HIS permission to do so

          I am headdesking so hard right now. The sheer audacity of this comment!

      3. Anon Moose*

        What is the “logic” there? That the employee went into the hospital on purpose in order to mess up the company? Honestly.

    4. Duncan*

      Not just thin ice – sounds like they are violating the law and interfering with employees’ FMLA rights. And since they have notice that these absences are FMLA-qualifying, they really can’t hold them against employees. I’m not an expert on FMLA by any means, but I believe there is a provision in the regulations regarding that – the employer has to advise employees that the absence does not qualify for FMLA when the employee puts them on notice that they need it (and by requesting the forms and being denied them, that would seem to be adequate notice.) For starters, I would encourage folks to submit the paperwork the DOL provides if HR won’t give them the form. And send via email to have confirmation it was delivered. Then if any action is taken against an employee for an FMLA-qualifying absence, I would file a formal complaint.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Yes, this. The company sucks and is sitting up and begging for legal trouble.

    5. Nobody*

      IANAL, but based on my limited knowledge of FMLA, it looks like your employer is on very shaky ground here. FMLA is a legal right (with certain restrictions — but I am assuming that the employees in question meet the eligibility requirements) and the employer cannot deny it or discriminate against employees who use it.

    6. Kassy*

      I think it’s illegal. IANAL, but the Department of Labor’s website states that “examples of prohibited conduct include…discouraging an employee from using FMLA leave.” Will post the link in a reply since I assume it will get caught in the spam filter.

    7. Observer*

      VERY thin ice. And it may not just be FMLA, but possibly the ADA. The EEOC and DOL have some fairly good materials and “guidance”. It might be worth pointing HR to some of these resources.

    8. it happens*

      I’m a little confused. It sounds like the company’s extended leave is paid leave, while FMLA is the right to unpaid leave. Is my understanding mistaken? Because if not, it sounds like HR is pushing people to take paid leave instead of forfeiting their pay. Which sounds like a good thing to me.

      1. Kassy*

        FMLA doesn’t prohibit paid leave, though. It’s not an “either/or” situation, despite how the company is trying to frame it. They can have their extended leave concurrently with FMLA. The thing with the extended leave is that presumably since it’s the company’s internal policy, they can approve or deny requests as they please. With FMLA they would have no choice, which may be why they don’t want people to apply for it.

      2. nutella fitzgerald*

        I think the trade-off is whether or not you can be penalized for taking the leave: yes for the company-provided, no for the FMLA. By discouraging FMLA they revoke the employee’s right to take leave without it being held against them.

        1. DCGirl*

          Exactly. FMLA is, by definition, unpaid leave. You are allowed (and the employer can require you) to use any forms of paid leave available to you (vacation, sick, PTO) to provide income replacement while you are on what would otherwise be unpaid leave.

      3. TootsNYC*

        It would be a good thing! That’s what I thought was going on at first (I can totally see all the HR depts I’ve worked with in the past doing this, resisting the FMLA thing), and I wondered what the employees were complaining about. But I’ve also never worked anywhere that I’ve heard of people getting in trouble for taking sick days–at all. I’ve seen managers say, “Are you OK?” and I’ve seen HR contact people and say, “I see a lot of absences; maybe you need to be on short-term disability? What’s going on, and how can we categorize your absences?” It wouldn’t surprise me if they said, “Listen, there’s a perception that you’re taking sick day for not-good reasons, and we want to check in with you” from the point of view of making sure you’re not being blamed unfairly, and accompanied by a “if you tell us anything medical, which you’re not required to do, we will never tell anyone else, because we’re Honorable HR.” (which was a true assessment)

        If the company is going to get pissy over something like being hospitalized because of a car accident, then I understand why employees want FMLA.

        1. DCGirl*

          Five “incidents of unplanned absence” put you on probation; seven get you terminated. We have two call centers, so coverage is important (I don’t work in either, however), so I get that. I just think that coverage in the call centers could also be ensured by, for example, hiring more employees. It’s also frustrating to those of who don’t work in the call center that so many policies are designed around the call center. For example, I’ve had some very scary rides to work during and immediately after snowstorms because the call center has to stay open (it’s regulatory thing).

          1. Observer*

            As it happens, FMLA applies to call centers, which means that you CANNOT put someone on probation for taking FMLA leave. That’s why staff need to put in the FMLA paperwork.

      4. Elsajeni*

        The problem is the other protections that FMLA provides. In a way it sounds nice to say “We prefer not to activate FMLA until you’ve exhausted your paid leave” — the best interpretation of that would mean that, should you need it, you could use your regular sick leave and your 10 days of extended leave and then STILL have 12 full weeks of unpaid leave available with the knowledge that your job would be safe — but if the effect is that a lot of people with FMLA-eligible situations are not getting the protections of FMLA because they’re able to come back to work within the period covered by their paid leave, that’s a problem.

        1. DCGirl*

          Yes, if you talk to HR, they couch extended sick leave as one of the best benefits they provide. Basically, any annual days you don’t use roll over into your extended sick leave bank, and you can accrue up to 60 days of extended sick leave.

      5. SpaceySteph*

        IANAL also but I believe while on FMLA qualifying leave you can still use paid leave for that time. I know people who have done this for maternity leave, for example. This may be something company policy can control, but regardless they can’t fire you for using FMLA leave so by discouraging people from treating it as FMLA leave it sounds like they are then calling them “unacceptable” absences and firing people over it.

    9. Mike C.*

      Wow, this is sketchy as all hell, and I would argue actively malicious. It really feels like they’re trying to prevent people from getting the protections of FMLA so that they can fire people for being sick.

      ALSO! FMLA isn’t just for extended blocks of time for illness – it’s also for issues that are short but reoccurring.

      Also, you should look up the municipal authority that enforces sick time in case “extended leave” isn’t granted as needed.

    10. CAA*

      I’m confused about why everyone is saying this behavior is sketchy or illegal. If these employees have paid leave of any kind in their leave bank, the employer is 100% within their legal rights to require the employees to use it before they grant FMLA.

      From the FMLA Compliance page someone else linked to:
      Substitution of Paid Leave

      Employees may choose to use, or employers may require the employee to use, accrued paid leave to cover some or all of the FMLA leave taken. Employees may choose, or employers may require, the substitution of accrued paid vacation or personal leave for any of the situations covered by FMLA. The substitution of accrued sick or family leave is limited by the employer’s policies governing the use of such leave.

      1. hbc*

        It seems like they’re being punished for taking extended leave, though. So it’s like having a policy that you have to use up all your leave before FMLA, and then a policy that taking more than 10 days leave at once gets you fired. It’s either a bad intersection of individually reasonable policies or a really nasty, deliberate attempt to get around FMLA. And if no one fixes it, it doesn’t matter what the intent is, because the effect is the same.

      2. Sarah in DC*

        They can’t require you to take your paid leave before FMLA, just concurrently. FMLA isn’t just about unpaid leave, its also about job protection.

        1. CAA*

          Yes, they can require you to take paid leave before FMLA: “employers may require, the substitution of accrued paid vacation or personal leave for any of the situations covered by FMLA”

          1. Anonsie*

            The passage quoted above means the employer can count absences taken under FMLA against your leave accruals or, in this case, an extended leave time bank. It doesn’t mean they can deny you the right to file for FMLA and its protections.

          2. Stardust*

            That means that the company can require that the employee use up PTO concurrently with FMLA.

      3. Mike C.*

        Using it with FMLA is one thing. The sketchy thing is actively discouraging people from using FMLA in the first place.

  11. Degree choices*

    I really hope this question doesn’t come across as being disrespectful, but it’s something I’ve always been a bit confused about.

    There’s a lot of discussion over how difficult it is for graduates with degrees in subjects such as liberal arts or from creative fields, and it’s probably even more difficult for people with postgrad qualifications in that area. It comes up so frequently that I’m wondering why people go into these fields to begin with.

    For many, I’m sure it has a lot to do with their passion for the subject, but then do they usually go in with a plan of what they want to pursue once they’ve completed their degree? Or was it just something that they’ve never thought about (or been advised about) before they started? Were they presented with unrealistic prospects, or did prospects change drastically while they were still in college?

    1. Journal Entries*

      I was young and uninformed. As the first person in my family to attend college I didn’t get any advice or help, and the college councilor didn’t help either.

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        That was exactly my problem. Nobody in my family had studied and those that were doing the best were in admin positions. I had no idea what jobs there really were in the world and expected to end up working in retail or a typing pool. I studied anyway, because at that time tuition was free, and assumed I would figure it out somewhere along the way. I have to say though, looking at my classmates, none of us arts graduates have been unemployed or underemployed; there definitely are jobs out there for arts graduates. I’m now working in STEM, without having had to study anything else.

      2. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

        Yes, this exactly. When I got my associates degree I didn’t know what to pick and went with History because I liked it. However when I went back to finish my Bachelors several years later, it wasn’t that I was young, I just didn’t really understand that what I was picking wasn’t going to be helpful in getting me a job. Sure, I had work experience, but not “work in a job that actually requires a degree” experience. There’s overlap, but in many ways, they are different worlds. And I still didn’t have a college adviser worth anything.

      3. CheeryO*

        Yep. I was the first in my family to go to college, and I changed my major during freshman year from psych to engineering, and I’m so happy I did – not because you can’t have a great career with a psych degree, but because I had virtually no clue what I wanted to do with it. I had zero guidance (our guidance counselors were all about getting you INTO college, and not so into helping us figure out what to do once we got there, and my parents were just ecstatic that my scholarship meant that they didn’t have to pay for it). It’s REALLY difficult as an 18-year-old (any 18-year-old, but especially one from a depressed small town with blue-collar parents) to both know what it is that they want to do for a living AND figure out a realistic path to get there all on your own. So many of my friends just kind of ended up picking something that sounded vaguely interesting, or something that aligned with our strongest subjects in high school.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      Well I can only speak for myself but I majored in the humanities for two reasons (in addition to interest in the subject):
      -I started college in an economy/job market where it was possible for one to major in the liberal arts and still get a decent job after graduation
      -I originally planned on getting my doctorate, but that plan changed when I learned the humanities Academic job market was even worse than the general job.

      Personally I wish less emphasis was put on college major. Unless it’s a very specialized field, I think it shouldn’t matter much after a few years of professional experience. Tbh I barely remember any of the actual content I learned in college.

      2. SophieChotek*

        Yes, me too. I got my grad degree(s) in the humanities and while I fully expected it to be difficult to get an academic position–and expected to have to pay my dues in the proverbial small college in the middle of a cornfield (that my advisors spoke so disparingly of), when I started there was enough evidence to suggest that if I did well with my program, etc., I should be able to get a decent job after graduation and after X years at small college and building my resume “work my way” back to the bigger/better college or better universities

        Then 2008-2009 happened and that was the end of it…people who graduated before or after me seem to have found jobs but m years….not as much….

        also as That Girl writes below, it doesn’t make sense to get degrees in something everyone says will lead to Great High Paying Job if one does not like topic or is bad at it…

        That said, I would not get the humanities graduate degrees if I could do it over; I’ll pay student loans until I die…

    3. ThatGirl*

      It’s not universally true, is the thing. It really depends what field, where you live, experience, what sort of jobs you’re looking for. Etc.

      Plus, there’s no sense in trying to study subjects you’re bad at, or train for careers you might hate.

      I mean, maybe this isn’t what folks mean – but I was a communication major with a media emphasis. Journalism is a hard field to be in right now, but I did find jobs in it. And then I left newspapers and found work as a copywriter and editor – I was adaptable and now I have a whole new skill set and career path, but it still ties in to what I studied.

      I couldn’t be an engineer or an accountant or a nurse – my brain just doesn’t work that way.

      The world will always need creative and liberal-arts-type people.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Plus, there’s no sense in trying to study subjects you’re bad at, or train for careers you might hate.

        This. I simply had no natural aptitude for hard sciences or math growing up. I was going to have to major in something I liked and did well or else I would have flunked out of school – and flunking out was not an option since I took out loans to pay for my education, so being degreeless and in debt in this economy while trying to find a job that would pay well enough to pay off said debt would have been disastrous.

        I too was a journalism major, and while I never worked in print media professionally, the skills I learned in my program have come in incredibly handy in my current profession. If I could do it all over again, I would major in risk management since that’s basically what I do now, but I don’t think my degree was a waste.

    4. Bookworm*

      I think there are a lot of different answers to this question, so I’ll only attempt to answer as it pertains to me.

      1) When I was 17, entering college, I had zilch, zip, zero idea of what I wanted to do, so a ‘generic’ liberal arts degree seemed perfectly good.

      2) A lot of adults (I think I even read somewhere the majority) do not go into careers that are directly related to their college majors.

      3) For many career paths (including the one I eventually followed) what you studied in college isn’t, well, super-relevant. A lot of businesses require undergrad degrees but their entry level jobs don’t necessarily require it. I studied liberal arts and went into marketing; my peers in that department had degrees in a variety of different subjects. For those roles (this also goes for my friends in sales, support, PR, human resources, business development) WHAT we had studied didn’t seem to matter so much as how well we had done.

    5. matcha123*

      In my case, I suck at math and my interest in building websites was treated as a hobby by the adults around me. I graduated high school in 2001. Also, I never had anyone site down with me and talk with me about The Future. I was only told to go to university. The adults around me had jobs that were in fields that I wasn’t interested in (teaching, non-profits) or fields that would have been impossible for me to enter (doctors, lawyers) due to my lack of math.

      I think that liberal arts degrees are quite important. At least for English (and I’m not an English major), we need people who can take technical writing and polish it into something that’s easily digestible by “regular” people. We need people to write the news, to find the news, to give us literature, art, make movies and more.

      Realistically, everyone can’t become a doctor or an engineer.

    6. Dawn*

      I think a lot of it has to do with the prevailing attitude of “Go to college! One you get a degree it’ll be great! It doesn’t matter what it’s in, you just need a degree! You have to choose your major your first year!” And then you send 18-year-olds off to college and freedom for the first time and the majority of them are just looking for whatever major is easiest that they can navigate between exploring their new found freedom as much as possible.

      Plus add in that if you didn’t grow up with parents who went to college or who went to college 30 years prior or who don’t “do” corporate networking or whatever you aren’t going to college with the knowledge of how to get the most out of it. I mean, I think the reality of college is you get out of it what you put into it, and that to make the most of it students should be doing internships, volunteer work, that kinda stuff. Networking the hell out of those 4 years so they can set themselves up for success once they graduate by having a work history and knowing people. NO ONE TAUGHT ME THIS. I don’t know if any college teaches students this. God I wish mine did.

      Like, for me I was 18 and had zero idea what the hell I wanted to do. I initially went to college with the intention of being a photojournalist because it sounded neat. I changed my major my Freshman year to web design because that’s what major my boyfriend at the time was in. That’s it. That’s the entire thought process behind me choosing my college major.

      1. Liana*

        +1 to this SO MUCH. When I went off to college there was so much emphasis on “Go to college! This is how you’ll better yourself!” (My parents are also a bit elitist). But I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. I ended up taking an elective class my sophomore year on Intro to International Relations and discovered that I loved politics. So I chose Polisci as my major. I think when most millenials were heading off to college, there was still so much focus on college as the ticket to a better life that a lot of us weren’t really educated on how we should apply our college degrees in the real world. Any degree was seemingly better than no degree.

        1. overeducated*

          Not just seemingly. I think for our parents’ generation, it really WAS. My dad spent his summers in college working on farms and factories, and walked out with a degree into a technical job where he has learned and progressed for over 30 years. In our generation, to get a technical job like that, you’d need multiple internships and a higher level graduate degree, and you wouldn’t get the security of an amazing pension plan and a job until you retire. Things are different.

          1. Mordecai*

            +1
            Huge generational divide, my parents really don’t ‘get’ how my working life has been.

      2. Lily Evans*

        +1 for having a work history and knowing people. I studied english education and had two internships (each a semester long) plus two jobs (one at college and one at home during the summer) so not only did I have a solid work history, I had awesome references. When I realized that teaching wasn’t for me, those things are what helped me find a job.

        I had a friend who was in almost the same program dedicated almost all of her time to studying and never worked during school. She had awesome grades and graduated summa cum laude, but then couldn’t find a full time job for well over a year because she had no experience or work-based references.

        1. Ex Resume Reviewer*

          Agreed. I had a friend come out with multiple degrees who’s struggled for years because he had no work history. He’s also been handicapped by not getting exposed to professional norms and this has harmed him at jobs he has acquired.

          I can trace all my success back to a job I got my senior year of college that put me on the path I am on today. I almost changed my major to comp sci in school, but I’m glad I didn’t since networks fit me much better.

      3. Sparkly Librarian*

        Yup, this rings true for me. I earned a BA in a specifically useless liberal art because my parents supported that interest and told me that the degree was what mattered in the workforce, not the major. They both have advanced degrees; one was a teacher and the other a CFO. It was utterly expected that their children would attend college. But then I really wasn’t prepared to enter the workforce after college… I mentioned one retail-type job I was thinking of applying to to my mother, and she threw a fit because that was a job anyone could do, and why would I be looking at that kind of job with my BA? And I was shocked, because I’d honestly not contemplated what I’d be doing for work after graduation and how to get started. Looking back on that makes me cringe.

        (I bummed around for a year while my savings and parents covered my living costs, did some odd jobs, eventually applied to a temp agency and got a long-term posting — 6 months — and then got hired on permanently from the third posting. Stayed at that company, doing various customer service/tech support things, for 8 years. Got my MLIS while working. Applied to the local public library and eventually got hired. Have been here for a year and love it. Worked out okay.)

    7. Christian Troy*

      I’m similar to Satan. When I went to college, the economy for all intents and purpose was OK. I knew a lot of people with communication/writing degrees who had an easy time finding work after school.

      I think people see the success of a segment of people in those fields so they think it mustn’t be that hard to find work. I know people from my undergrad who work at Google, tech companies, etc., with liberal arts degrees so I could see why looking at that sample size it would encourage future students.

      1. JuniorDev*

        Off topic but your first sentence made me laugh, then imagine some missing chapters in Paradise Lost concerning Lucifer’s career development.

        –a religious studies major turned code monkey

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          The first sentence made me do a double take, especially considering the username of the poster. :)

    8. Temperance*

      I grew up in a poor family. One of my parents didn’t even graduate high school. I had no guidance or understanding about “job prospects”. I followed the assumption, which many others did, that you get a degree and you get doors opened for you, magically.

      No one ever said, hey Temperance, it’s really hard to break into publishing, or hey Temperance, your family doesn’t have connections to get your foot in the door somewhere. What I was told, over and over, was that I shouldn’t ever “work for free” (intern), and that if I had good grades, I would get any job I wanted.

    9. Ms. Didymus*

      Well, I can only speak for myself but here goes

      I started with plans to pursue a business degree. Two years in, I realized that while I was very good at my business classes, I hated them. The classes I loved were my liberal arts – English, History, Sociology, etc. So, I switched and triple majored in English, History and Sociology.

      All my childhood I was told that unless you were going into specific professional fields (medicine, accounting, law, etc) all that mattered was you had a degree. I wasn’t going into those fields so I figured my degree would be just fine.

      Ha.

      I will say this, my degree taught me how to justify my degree and how to explain the benefits of such a degree in the corporate world. I now manage a team of client facing specialists. But every time I go for a promotion or to switch jobs I have to start over again.

    10. Not Karen*

      I didn’t major in liberal arts, but at no point before, during, or after college did someone discuss with me the options for what to actually DO with my degree. I was always told to major in something I like and to worry about finding a job later.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        Yeah, that was what I was told also. Just major in what I liked! Shit, my parents wanted me to major in art.

        I graduated college with a useless social science degree during a recession, and I liked school and my professors were encouraging me to go to grad school, so I did. I realized academia was not for me and bailed during the great recession with an equally useless social science MA.

        I actually have found a field I love, and my degrees do come in handy because while it’s a different field it does require a lot of the same skillset. But I would have gotten here faster if I’d been able to realize I loved statistics before I was 28 (insert rant here about thinking I was bad at math because I’m sloppy at arithmetic and people not encouraging me to get right with math because I’m female — turns out as an adult I love math and I love making computers do all my arithmetic for me).

    11. Anonymous Educator*

      There’s a lot of discussion over how difficult it is for graduates with degrees in subjects such as liberal arts or from creative fields, and it’s probably even more difficult for people with postgrad qualifications in that area. It comes up so frequently that I’m wondering why people go into these fields to begin with.

      I can’t speak for other liberal arts folks, but my spouse and I were both English majors. I was planning to (and eventually did) teach secondary school English. She was vaguely planning to work in publishing (did for a short time but ended up doing other stuff). We’re not living in the lap of luxury, but neither of us has ever been unemployed, and we’ve been able to work a number of non-English-related jobs the past couple of decades.

      1. AliceW*

        My sister graduated from a state school with an art degree. She chose art because she got a full scholarship for art. She is now the global department head of one of the largest banks. She started as a temp. I have a degree in English and am now a director of an investment company. I never thought I would get a job related to my college major. I just tried a bunch of different things until I found something I was good at and liked well enough. Doesn’t matter what degree you get. Don’t limit yourself.

    12. Lillian McGee*

      For me, college was oversold generally and throughout my primary schooling no one even attempted to cultivate the slight interest I had in STEM. I was “bad at math” and no one pushed me to realize that I was really just lazy at math.
      So I went in undeclared and moved into fine arts because it was ~*fun*~! Until it wasn’t and by then it was too damn late. Much later I realized that if anyone had pushed me just a little more, I could have made a pretty good engineer. I had a huge burst of interest in science after graduation too.
      Now I’m also kindasorta regretting not considering skilled trades–I think I would have been good at carpentry or sheet metal…

      1. Tuckerman*

        Yes! I think part of the problem is that we’re told to go into areas where we think we are skilled. But, it’s really easy to say we’re bad at things when in actuality, we simply haven’t had enough exposure or are intimidated by it. Or, we struggled with it for a year or two in school and took it to mean we were bad at that subject. Or, we generalized geometry to mean, all math.
        I don’t believe “You can do anything if you set your mind to it,” but we can do way more than we might think!

        1. Lindsay J*

          This. I stayed away from STEM fields because I was better at english etc. However, I didn’t really realize until I was in college that even though math and science weren’t necessarily my strength, I was still better at those subjects than plenty of the students majoring in those areas.

          I also feel as though I was steered more towards specific professions since I was female; I had plenty of teachers encouraging me to be a teacher (even though I don’t really have a caring or nurturing bone in my body and I guarantee a guy with my personality and aptitudes would not have been encouraged to go into teaching) and nobody encouraging me to be, say, a programmer or website designer, even though I was adept at HTML and CSS.

      2. KR*

        See, when I was in high school I could only imagine myself as a computer engineer. I didn’t have the perspective to realize that it was not right for me, and my guidance counselor was so happy I was interested in technology that she didn’t really push me to make sure it was what I wanted to do. My parents didn’t know a lot about college but were of the opinion that unless it “guaranteed” a job like STEM careers did, it wasn’t a good major and it was a waste of money in general (we didn’t have a lot of money anyway).
        What really threw me for a loop when I went to college was that I didn’t really know how the whole payment process worked. I told my reach school that I would attend and didn’t hear anything from them until late July when I was provided the credentials to my school email, where tons of reminders for tuition (due beginning of August) were waiting. I had no clue how student loans worked and when I realized that I was totally in the dark with $9,000 due in a week, I dropped the university for community college and abandoned engineering all-together. The amount of money was scary and I didn’t even know you could take out student loans online.
        It’s a good thing too because I had a complete turn around in the first year where I realized that maybe IT wasn’t something I wanted to go to school for. I was failing my networking classes badly. I wasn’t even treading water – I was lost. My advisor/professor told me that if I wanted to be able to do this, he would tutor me and make sure I understood it, but he also understood if I wanted to explore other options. I chose to go undeclared for a semester, took an accounting class and a business class and I realized I was really good at both of them so I moved to a business administration major and I’m an admin for an IT director now – a good mix of technical support which I’m good at but not passionate about and admin which I’m good at and really enjoy.
        If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn’t be so wild about a STEM field right from the get-go. I think I would have taken a little more time to choose what career/subject really suited me and then maybe I wouldn’t have crashed in college. It’s a good thing I did though, because I learned a lot about what work I enjoy.

      3. Ad Astra*

        Because of your post, I am finally realizing that I was not bad at math; I was lazy at math. Which explains the sharp downturn in math grades beginning around 7th or 8th grade.

        I am, however, pretty bad at science. So maybe STEM wasn’t really for me.

    13. Caledonia*

      Maybe it’s different in the UK…from my experience we don’t have such a big thing about it. I’ve known people go for all sorts of degrees that don’t necessarily translate into jobs (incl myself), but it’s what you learn as skills that matter. I’m studying for a degree in Humanities part time , distance learning. So far I’ve studied, history, art history, English language.
      Some people have asked me what I’m going to do with my degree. I’m not a very good student so I’m not going any further with it. I’m just going to have a degree. And be proud that I do, after 2 false starts in other courses, and after 7 years (I started back in 2010).

      1. JuniorDev*

        I think this is the ideal situation in the US. It’s certainly the message I got from professors and advisors in college (university).

        The reality is that the job market is hard and simply having a degree isn’t a guarantee of a job like it (supposedly) used to be. I got my first non-service-industry job out of college in large part because of volunteer work I had done while working in food service to pay the bills.

        Another thing that influences out decision here is that unless you get very good scholarships an undergrad degree costs more than a house. I believe in education for its own sake, but for student loans that’ll last me years if not decades I’d better get some kind of material payoff.

      2. Snow*

        Randomly are you studying with the OU? I’m in year 5 of 6 with them doing a humanities degree (I’ve done, classics and creative writing mostly) and it was my choice half because of interest and half because I deliberately picked something none work related because I hated the job I had 5 years ago and I wanted something different when I came home to study. What I’ve learnt with the OU has totally helped with analytical skills and report writing and got me two job changes to a much better position. (Where next year they are going to pay for me to do the OU Stats courses.)

        2. Blue Anne*

          The OU is so great! I took a couple accounting courses with them when I started working in that field and it was such high quality stuff, really practical and definitely respected by employers.

      3. Blue Anne*

        I think it’s very different in the UK.

        I’m American and went to the University of Edinburgh for Philosophy. When I got out, no problem finding great jobs, because I had a 2:1 from Edinburgh and no one cared what the degree was in, really.

        I’ve just moved back to America, and the first thing people ask is what I studied. “Philosophy, but I work in finance” is turning out to be a fine answer, but even then I’ve had to explain to a few people that no, I’m really not looking for a job as a philosopher.

    14. Bend & Snap*

      I have a liberal arts degree because the curriculum was one that I could be successful in–I’m terrible at math and science, but strong in language and writing. As a communications major I’m almost 2 decades into a career that aligns with my degree.

      I don’t think the degree holds you back so much as how you apply it.

      1. JuniorDev*

        So in college I did poorly in math and science classes and believed I was bad at those things, so I majored in Religion. Turns out I 1) didn’t have good study skills and 2) wasn’t mature enough to appreciate how much better I could do if I’d worked harder. I also had some untreated mental health issues that didn’t help.

        When I got bad grades in Chemistry and Physics I considered dropping out or taking a year off but all my family members strongly discouraged me. I don’t regret finishing my degree but I think I’d have done better if I’d taken that year off to do any sort of job where I had real responsibility for anything and just generally matured some before making decisions about what to study.

        After college I couldn’t find a job that paid well enough with the education I had so I began learning to code. Turns out I really enjoy learning STEM topics when I’m intrinsically motivated by them and dedicated to pushing through the hard parts.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        I agree with much of what you and others are writing here about why people major in liberal arts and not the more “career/practical” subjects. I tell students all the time to major in something they enjoy/are good at, figure out what the transferrable skills (research, writing, analysis, etc.) are, and get some practical experience WHILE they’re in college to pair with their degree to improve their chances. That can mean internship, co-curricular experience (student gov’t/other organizations), work-study or other campus jobs, being a teaching/research assistant for a prof/dept., summer jobs, etc. This will help you figure out what you do and do not like and can help guide you as you begin your career.

    15. Kassy*

      I have a science degree and am currently working in an admin role. The job market is atrocious even for a lot of traditionally “stable” fields.

      But as far as the degrees you’re talking about, colleges are big on “here are all the things you can do with X degree!” and students get the impression that those are all options. What is not discussed: the lack of openings in those departments, potentially unliveable entry-level salaries/lack of benefits, and the unfavorable ratio of candidates to openings. I mean, there have been job openings in my field since I graduated, but either had 30-40 qualified applicants per position, or the salary is equivalent to what I make now as an admin, but with more expensive benefits (so essentially amounting to a pay cut) and worse hours.

      1. Nova Terra*

        Yeah, certain subsects of STEM don’t really have glowing job prospects either.

        I wised up to that fact about halfway through the last year of my B.Sc. I still remember during my convocation the dean of science (or whoever was being the MC of the ceremony) was all “with a science degree, you’ll open so many doors blah blah” and I honestly haven’t found that to be the case (and I went to a good school). Granted, I was crap at networking, but the existence of the B.Sc–and STEM in general–isn’t some magic ticket. I’ve known engineers who had a hard time finding work too.

    16. Jules the First*

      Well hang on a sec – I have two degrees in art history (just about the most useless degree out there) and I’ve never had any trouble finding work.

      I did a liberal arts degree because I wanted to learn that kind of stuff (I’m good at science but not interested); I majored in Art History because it let me take a zillion different options and still graduate.

      My liberal arts degree taught me to put together a reasoned argument, to write fluently, and a whole swack of research skills. I use those tools every day, in every job I’ve ever had (from call centre work through to high-level project management). If you are expecting your liberal arts degree to be perfectly 100% related to your job, then yes, you’ll probably have trouble finding work, but both my sisters did hard science degrees and have had much more trouble finding work over the years.

    17. Liza*

      I went to college after high school because That’s What We Do (it was the general expectation both in my family and more generally at my high school) but without any idea of what I wanted for a career–so I took classes that seemed interesting, and ended up with a major that combines history & languages. By the time I graduated, I was working full-time in computer support and taking classes part-time to finish the degree so I could check the “has a bachelor’s degree” box. It hasn’t held me back any as far as I can tell! On the other hand, by the time I graduated I did have that real work experience to talk up on my resume.

    18. Kelly L.*

      For me it was a combination of three things.

      -The “Get a degree! Any degree! They just want you to be able to check that box!” message.

      -Genuine love of the subject matter I planned to study. If any degree was fine, then why not major in something I would enjoy? And while there was some annoying sneering about “what are you gonna do, teach?”, I liked the subject matter enough that yes, teaching it would have been an acceptable road to take if other things hadn’t worked out. I would have considered that a success.

      -I had been planning to go to law school. That didn’t happen (and thank all the academic gods for that), but the advice I got at the time was a variation on point #1–that it didn’t really matter what your undergrad was in, just get one, then go to law school, and then that’s when the doors would open.

      We were also all kind of pushed at the time to decide OMGRIGHTNOW and that if we took time off to figure stuff out, we’d never go back.

      (And really, we need people to be in those fields.)

    19. nutella fitzgerald*

      I have a STEM degree, but I only got it because I like the subject. I was in my junior year of college before a professor mentioned the earning potential. Which actually was an unpleasant memory to linger through the 18 months of un(der)employment that followed my graduation :|

    20. Laura*

      I have a bachelor’s degree in history from a small liberal arts university. I graduated a year ago and had a job offer prior to graduation. I knew very early on that I would never use my degree directly in the “real world” but that the skills I gained would be applicable. And so they are. I work in higher education and I use my excellent writing, research, and presentation skills EVERY DAY. History is one of my favorite things in the whole world. Because I’m historically aware, I can be more sensitive to students from all kinds of backgrounds.

      But I only got here because I was committed to being successful– living with my parents after graduation was not an option. I can’t say the same thing for many of my peers. Too many of them are thoughtless, lazy, or don’t understand why loans need to be paid off. I don’t think my department in college gave any illusions that history is a “valuable” degree for the workforce, but my school didn’t really do anything to push students toward the job market either.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        But I only got here because I was committed to being successful– living with my parents after graduation was not an option. I can’t say the same thing for many of my peers. Too many of them are thoughtless, lazy, or don’t understand why loans need to be paid off.

        Or, too many of them have crippling loan debt that makes it so if they don’t live at home, they’d be living in a cardboard box by the freeway.

      2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        This is a great example of the millenial martydom that needs to stop.

        The fact that you suffered to get where you are today and your level of success does not mean that everyone should have to “pay their dues” (that term does not mean what the users think it means anymore).

        Case in point, I graduated in 2010 completed a Fulbright Fellowship until 2011, struggled from 2011 to 2012 making even less than I did in 2011 and now I make an OK salary$(62K in a mid-western medium sized town). I have friends who fell into $50K jobs right out of graduation with my same degree. They are now out earning me due mostly to luck, timing, and location. I do not begrudge them their success. I do not think today’s graduates should “stick it out” through shitty paying jobs that can not pay off their loans and do not have the wage growth potential they need.

        The US economy is crazy and unsustainable.

    21. overeducated*

      I think sometimes knowing what you want to pursue doesn’t always involve knowing about all the people who try and fail. Being a full-time artist or actor is well-known as a risky path in which most people don’t succeed, so I think 18 year olds trying to do either of those know that the odds are against them. But being a professor, an archaeologist, a publisher? Those are all well-known “careers” based on the successful examples. How many people are competing for so few jobs, or how salaries differ for people who got into the field 30 years ago vs. people hired as 1099 contractors or whatever now (skewing statistics upward), is not something most people are able to learn until they’re pretty far into the field and have some sunk costs already. The OES survey, for instance, talks about average wages, but not about number of applicants for few jobs.

    22. Elizabeth West*

      My reason for getting an English degree is similar to Bend & Snap’s–because of my LD, I can’t do anything math-related and that cuts out science as well, though I would have LOVED to get a science degree. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a forensic pathologist for a while (thanks to Quincy, M.E.).

      However, I listened too much to other people. You went to college after high school because everyone did. I was an exceptional singer, so I listened when everyone said I should major in music. I chose performance because I also wanted to be a professional performer. That degree I never finished, though I did get close. It’s doubtful I’ll ever go back to it–I don’t sing much anymore except in the car, though I’d like to practice more.

      Then when I went back to school, I majored in Criminology, thinking I’d go into some kind of law enforcement job. Actual LEO work was out because my eyesight is too bad and I have a psychiatric history (thanks to the undiagnosed LD), and of course no criminalistics because math/science. I switched back to English thinking I would teach and finished that degree and the Crim one as an associate of science. One of my literature/writing instructors told me that people with an English degree can always get a job, especially if they can write.

      HOWEVER…..

      When I enrolled in graduate school to get the education courses, they failed to tell me that in order to teach in my state, I had to not only have a masters, but it had to be IN MY SUBJECT. In addition to that, halfway through the teacher ed program I realized I did not want to teach high school and I did not want a Ph.D, which I needed to teach college. So I quit.

      Round #3–went back one more time after getting laid off from Exjob, this time with a professional writing program through Vocational Rehab (because of the LD, for which I finally got a diagnosis-yay!). Got this job, which pays too much for VR assistance and I did not want to incur any more debt. As it stands, unless I win the lottery or write a killer bestselling book that earns me J.K. Rowling or Stephen King-level money, I can never retire because loans. Not ever.

      So that’s where it is now. I really truly regret not having a gap year after high school. I think that should be a thing, especially now that college is SO expensive and does so little to help you get a job. If I had done that, I think I would have had more time to think about what I really wanted to do. The two degrees I have are good for nothing more than writing crime novels. Which I like anyway, but of course there are no guarantees of success.

      I could have finished the education masters and used it to get a job in corporate training, but I didn’t think of that until it was too late, and now I don’t ever want to go back to school again (unless it’s free or a one-off class on basket weaving, or whatever).

      And we got very little in the way of education about managing financial aid.

    23. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I agree with a lot of people above, there is a big emphasis on just declaring a major and getting a degree without much discussion of the long-term results of that kind of degree.

      However, I’m not sure that liberal arts degrees really mean much fewer job prospects. I chose Sociology as my major because I really enjoyed it. For a time, I thought I would go to law school after undergrad (and chose a lot of my upper division Sociology classes accordingly) but decided not to go that route. Part of my degree requirements was statistics, which I was pretty good at but thought the research side of sociology sounded painfully boring. I ended up in the corporate side of retail, the statistics part of what I learned applies pretty well and on the planning side you really don’t have to have a merchandising degree. I am not sure what I would be uniquely qualified to do with just an undergraduate Sociology degree, but the job market at the time that I graduated was good and I think many times I was given a chance just because I had a degree.

      My sister has a doctorate degree in English with a concentration in poetry. Of course her dream job would be publishing the next great American novel/poetry collection, but in the meantime she is a college professor and many of her friends from school are editors.

    24. Sunflower*

      I was not a liberal arts major but I looked at quite a few majors in college. The problem with college advisers is there was a lot of ‘this is what you CAN do with your degree’ as opposed to ‘here are what your job opportunities look like’. I felt like every time I talked to an adviser, they tried to sell me on their degree- it legit felt like a sales meeting. I debated majoring in PR or hospitality. PR told me that I could get a job doing PR for hotels. There are like 3 firms that do that and I just assumed I would get a job there(cringing at that thought now). No one EVER told me how competitive jobs were in PR. My parents didn’t go to college. They were in the camp of ‘just get a degree’. They told me to major in communications. They had absolutely zero idea of the job prospects for comm majors. Even now, they don’t understand how it took me so long to find a good job. Because my sister majored in accounting and they didn’t understand that not all majors taking (paid) interns and give 90% of them offers from that.

      I got a BS in hospitality. Your major really doesn’t matter now unless you’re in very limited fields. I work in marketing and a very limited number of us(maybe 10%?) have marketing degrees. If I could go back, I’d probably major in something relatively secure(like accounting) and take a job that paid well out of college while I tried to find a job I liked.

      1. Manders*

        Hey there, fellow marketer without a marketing degree!

        Some colleges distribute more money to departments if more people enter and complete a major. It can cause grade inflation (because you don’t want people failing out of your major) and turn professors into salespeople. My boyfriend, who’s making his exit from academia now, has told some real horror stories about being pressured to pass students who cannot read and write at an appropriate age level because his department needs the cash. It’s a real mess out there.

    25. MaggiePi*

      I did it and it was a combination of factors.
      A) I “followed my passions.” That was what my teachers told us to do!
      B) I graduated college just before the economy sank, so when I enrolled it was very much an attitude of any college degree = great job and great future of sunshine and rainbows
      and C) I totally expected to go to grad school for something more “practical” which would have make sense based on my B.A., until life and budgets and debt all became real realities.
      My kids, they won’t go to college because “it’s what you do” until they have an idea of real jobs and what they really want to be doing *with their degree*

    26. Jennifer*

      My best guess is that they’re doing what they’re good at and that they love in college. If you’re just not smart in math and science and business, trying to get degrees in that would be painful and possibly not doable. And people with graduate degrees may tend to ah, not want to go out into the working world ASAP to boot. Believe me, if I had any useful skills, I would have gotten a degree in a hard science or business or something useful–but I don’t.

      As for the future: I never had any clue about what to do in the future and I’ve fallen into all of my jobs, more or less. I knew I couldn’t really do what I wanted to do in life and have money, so…there you go.

    27. Fenchurch*

      I decided to get a degree in English with the original intention of teaching. When I had to start seriously thinking about licensing and really getting into the strict “teaching” tract of the degree, I bailed. I’m glad I did. My generic English degree has translated well into corporate America.

      My current employer identified not only do I have very strong written and verbal communication skills, but the analysis and problem-solving skills I honed during my studies fit my current role very well. I currently work in the financial sector. I’m positive these qualities will assist me in practically any field I would want to go into.

    28. Anon Moose*

      On the contrary, I know many many people who chose their degree based on how useful it would be in the job market. Some of those bets paid off. Some did not because the economy changed while they were in school or the field was oversold (computer science, law). Others absolutely hated the field they got their useful degree in and never worked in it. The economy changes, people change their minds.
      I also know many creative arts majors with fantastic jobs that are unrelated to their major, but don’t regret their choice. And I think that the strength of liberal arts is the broadness of the studies. They still have marketable skills and still get jobs. It may not be the job they thought they wanted originally, but… English majors and art history majors are not all unemployed. That’s silly. Its pretty much difficult for ALL college grads these days.
      Its a crapshoot, basically, whether you go for what you love or you for what you consider useful- but that can always change. Its very difficult to predict the job market when you go into school and many people just try to pick the best choice they can and then end up having to adapt afterward anyway.

    29. john watson*

      STEM fields have never been something I enjoyed (personal reasons). Writing was what I excelled in, so it felt natural for me to commit to English as a major. I had no pressure from my family to get a certain degree, either – they’re baby boomers and still held the idea that any degree would lead to a great job after graduation. I had fun with it and knew that once I was in the ~real world~ I wouldn’t be able to dedicate hours of my life to analyzing novels or writing short stories or whatever, so I enjoyed it while it lasted.

      I had no plans beyond a vague idea of getting into publishing. I’m about three years out and am just now getting a career track together (not in publishing, haha). I was the go-to person for writing guides, proofreading external communication, parsing manuals, etc, and I leveraged that to move into more writing-related positions. I wouldn’t go back because I never wanted to get a degree in anything else and accepted the challenges that came with that! I just wish I had done more networking or an internship.

    30. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think it’s a combination of assuming that “you can do anything with an [English/History/whatever] degree!” and then graduating and learning that the job market is actually highly skewed (in my opinion) towards candidate with practical, technical knowledge.

      I know, for me personally, that I entered college as a psychology major because the subject interested me and I assumed I would be able to use those “people skills” somewhere later in life. (I switched halfway through my first semester to a major with a clearer cut career path.)

    31. Lily Evans*

      For me, I really wanted to do a creative writing program. Becoming a published fiction writer has been my dream for most of my life. However, I was starting college around the time of the recession so my parents were like “writing will never make you money, blah blah blah, we’re the ones paying for your college do something that will get you a Real Job.” So I said fine and majored in english education because 1. I could easily be a writing minor with that major and 2. even though my parents didn’t really want me to be a teacher, they couldn’t argue that it wasn’t a Real Job with a possible Career Path.

      I knew going into it that it might be hard to find a job, even though I could get a master’s by adding a fifth year to the program, and knowing that it wouldn’t pay a lot. But I liked working with students! And helping people learn things! So I had it all planned out. My friends were jealous that I had A Plan that seemed perfect! Life was good. Then I realized that I hated literally everything else about teaching. From the hours to the politics, none of it appealed to me at all. Then I was stuck with a degree I didn’t want to use because it was too late to change majors without staying an extra year or two.

      I was lucky that I’d worked at the college’s library all four years, with increasing responsibility. That’s what got me a full time job at another college library. Which led me to this job where I’m, you guessed it, working in a college library! In a city I’ve dreamed of moving to my whole life! Where I can take one free class each semester, including creative writing classes taught by amazing faculty. So all-in-all it turned out okay, but it was so not where I imagined ending up when I started college six years ago.

    32. Ashley Dawn*

      In my situation, I started college as a business major. Practical, right? Except I was bored. to. tears. I hated all my classes, and I was jealous of my friends that got to take these fun classes and were learning so much! So I had the thought of “If I’m paying for this, I might as well get some enjoyment out of it” and switched my major to liberal arts. The next 2 years of college were awesome and fun and I learned so much about the world. I honestly credit that change with shaping who I am as a person today. And I still ended up finding a job in the business/HR/accounting world. The degree didn’t matter in the end for my job prospects, but it sure did matter in my actual life. Did I spent a lot of money on classes that I maybe didn’t need? Sure, but I’d pay it again to give me the life experience I got out of it. No question that it was worth it for me. I would still rather pay for a life experience degree than for a practical degree in a field that I would be guaranteed to find a job but hate it (by the way, I hate my job in accounting. So boring. Guess those classes did teach me something…that I hate accounting!).

    33. Sophia Brooks*

      I was a first generation college student in the early 1990s. There was such a push to be an engineer and to major in engineering that was really planning on it. It was what all my friends in the top of our class were doing. They arranged a shadowing day for us with various places, and I shadowed a bio-medical engineer.

      I very quickly realized that being an engineer was Not. For.Me.

      I didn’t really understand jobs that people with college educations had, so I majored in English because my best subject in school was English. I planned to be a high school teacher because high school English and music teachers were my favorite. I went to a small liberal arts school on a very good scholarship because I knew loans were bad. I discovered theatre, and kept the english major, but dropped the teaching. What attracted and attracts me to theatre is that it is really wide ranging– there are so many things to do and analyze and think about. I also realized (a little late) how much the English degree was about analyzing literature, and that what I really preferred was learning about how people lived in the past, but anyway.

      I have only had moments of regretting my major– I have a day job I like and which has lots of variety, and I still work in theatre at night. And I had no students loans. I don’t think I could have made a choice to be in a STEM field, because as was said above– my brain doesn’t work like that.

    34. Mike C.*

      I would point out that there are a ton of people holding business degrees that had/are having problems finding work as well.

      Also, Mathematics and Science are also liberal arts.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I’m aware of a lot of engineers who have had a hard time getting jobs. One young man in his late 20s who had an engineering degree went back to school to study medicine because he said that since graduating he was only employed for half the time, and that he had to spend the rest of the time looking for work. Another person quit to enter a nonengineering-related business. A third person drove truck for a time before he finally got his foot in the door for an actual STEM career.

        The successful engineers that I know all have advanced degrees, either in engineering, or sometimes in something that complements the engineering degree, like an MBA or a law degree.

    35. Manders*

      Honestly, I didn’t realize I had any other options as a student who hated math, liked reading and writing, and was expected to go to college straight out of high school. My parents are both tenured professors; I had never seen them switch jobs, or apply for another job, or worry about job security. I was sure that my life would follow exactly the same path. I chose the most prestigious school I got into, like they wanted me to do, and that school sold me on liberal arts degrees as being “flexible” for just about any field. I should mention that they had no business writing or marketing classes at all–they were totally focused on selling that “life of the mind” sub-Ivy lifestyle (I’m still kind of salty about the administration, can you tell?).

      Fortunately, during my last year of undergrad I saw more than my university thought I ought to see about how the sausage is made in academia. I didn’t apply to any grad schools and I moved from the typical post-grad area for my school (Boston and New York, where the cost of living was high and entry-level jobs that paid were hard to come by) to a different part of the country (Seattle, where the cost of living is still high-ish but the job market is stronger for new grads). I was torn up about not “following my dreams” into a job in academia or publishing, but now that I’m a few years into a career, I’m so glad I didn’t.

      1. Manders*

        Oh, I should add that thanks to a rare benefit my parents got as tenured professors, the university they worked at paid most of my tuition at the university I attended. I knew I would be graduating without any loans to repay, which did make me feel like I was more free to choose a major without worrying about whether my future career would pay me enough to make those loan payments. I might have made different choices if I had taken out tens or hundreds of thousands in loans (but I might not have, I was a sheltered teenager and the adults I relied on for advice were not at all familiar with the realities of the job market).

    36. Tris Prior*

      When I started college, I was a theater major because I honest to god wanted to be a performer for a living. I could not imagine doing anything else with my life. (hey, I was 18, and at the time the economy was pretty good….) I was just OK at math and science, had exactly zero interest in either, and was generally a nonconformist arty weirdo who had no desire for an office job.

      After a year, the economy had started getting worse, and I realized that getting cast in shows had a lot to do with factors I could not control other than talent or lack thereof. I realized how appearance-focused it was, and decided that I was not OK living my life that way. So I changed majors….. to English. Facepalm. But, I’d always been an excellent writer and figured that I could turn that into a job somehow. Our writing professors used to talk to us about how we can expect to earn low salaries, but I had zero real world experience at that point and I guess I didn’t really understand what that would mean in terms of where I could live, how I’d pay bills, etc.

      I was fortunate that I’ve been able to stay mostly employed since then, but I think a lot of that has to do with technical skills I picked up along the way, from working at tiny companies that couldn’t afford to hire people with tech degrees.

    37. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      All other things being equal, we prefer to hire liberal arts majors. My marketing dept doesn’t have a marketing or business major in the bunch. I wouldn’t “not” hire a business or marketing major but teapottery has be learnt from the ground up and we find liberal arts majors, especially English majors, to be more adaptive to continuous learning on the whole.

      1. Mreasy*

        I run a mid-sized record label & majored in Latin. The Music Business degree started to come into vogue a few years after the industry’s revenues had peaked, and from the friends & interns I’ve had who have taken it, is largely useless vs. the realities of the business. They’ve all learned through internships, and, later, working their ways up the employment ladder as I did. Professional degrees can be misleading for niche career areas.

    38. Lily in NYC*

      Well, much of it depends on the person’s age. I’m in my early 40s and back then you could still get a good job with a liberal arts degree and they weren’t considered useless.

    39. Brett*

      I don’t think it is the degree. I think the problem is that departments offering liberal arts and creative majors tend to be poor at preparing their graduates for entering a career. If you look at engineering majors, they are mostly full of co-ops, internships, job shadows, and networking. Alumni are heavily encouraged to work with graduating students to introduce them to the profession and help them find job opportunities.

      This does not happen in many liberal arts departments, and this, probably more than the major, impacts the ability of the students to find work after graduating.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        I was in a journalism program at a school that’s known for its co-ops for practically all majors across the liberal arts, medical, and engineering schools, and I think where my program dropped the ball was for those of us who did the co-op and then decided we didn’t want to be journalists anymore. No one was able to clearly explain how we could use what we already learned in an alternative career path. It’s kind of like how school’s that are training PhD’s push academia and almost nothing else to their students. We were taught everything we needed to know about how to make it as journalists (and I even had some professors who told us straight up that most of us wouldn’t make it, not because we couldn’t write, but because the industry was changing), but weren’t given options for other possible paths we could try, though we kept being told how flexible our major was and how we’d be able to find jobs doing just about anything because “every job needs good writers.” Yeah – that last bit turned out to be overly simplistic and not always true.

    40. designbot*

      I have an MFA and absolutely went in with a plan for what I wanted to be doing with it when I got out. Out of my MFA class, I would say that two of us really approached it that way–we had careers already, wanted to shift or expand them somehow, and succeeded in doing so. Two more from our class went back to doing almost exactly what they were doing before they got their MFA, though one was able to advance to a leadership position more easily for having the additional qualification. Two more (not coincidentally, the two who came straight out of undergrad BFAs) floundered–they had a hard time selecting thesis topics, needed an extra summer or year to complete their degrees, and had more difficulty than the rest finding jobs after.
      I know that 6 people who self-selected into a certain program does not a representative sample make, but I think we’re an interesting group to look at for this question. There was a great mix in terms of how much of a plan each of us had, but ultimately the plan or lack thereof had pretty direct correlation to any measure of success I can think of. Based on this when colleagues ask about grad school and especially MFA programs I tell them that unless they have a clear idea of why they are going (and why they are going THERE in particular), don’t do it.

      1. Manders*

        This is a trend I’ve also noticed among my friends who went to grad school. The ones who took a few years off went into school with a clear idea of what they wanted to get out of it, and they were used to working steadily throughout the day without having to pull all-nighters or rush to make deadlines. My friends who went straight to graduate school from undergrad struggled with their coursework and just generally didn’t have develop great habits for health, work/life balance, etc. Many are just now landing in entry-level jobs, and it’s been a rocky transition for them.

      2. Al Lo*

        I have a theatre undergrad and an MFA in a theatre field, and it seems that nearly every one of us in my MFA class (not just my discipline) is working in the creative industry in some capacity, even if not specifically theatre. On the flip side, my undergrad class is about 3/4 something totally different and 1/4 working professionally in the performing arts in some capacity.

        I’m a very strong believer that our society and culture still needs music, art, theatre, dance majors. We need people who study these art forms and disciplines as more than a hobby, and who delve deeply into the craft and history. Maybe 18 isn’t the right age to make that decision, but I will never regret getting my education in this field.

        I work in the performing arts now, and would never, ever discourage a student from pursuing that as a career (or a post-secondary field). Enough self-select out that the ones who carry on are the ones who really want it. It’s a hard field, but I know so many people who make it work. You have to be passionate about it and understand what you’ll need to slog through, and yes, there are a lot of people who don’t end up onstage, but if they never try, we never get the benefit of their artistry in future years.

        1. designbot*

          I wouldn’t discourage someone from pursuing an artistic *career* but I would certainly make sure they knew what type of career they wanted before encouraging them to pursue it as a *major*. Majoring does not a career make, as your undergraduate colleagues are a testament to.

    41. LAI*

      I am a college counselor so I have this conversation with students ALL THE TIME. For many students, it’s because their strengths and interests are in the liberal arts. Yes, computer science majors have an easier time getting jobs, but only jobs in computer science, so that doesn’t help you if you don’t want to do programming for a career. If you want to work in a career field that values communication and interpersonal skills, you are likely better served by majoring in an area that you genuinely enjoy and strengthening your resume with internships and other leadership experience. In my personal experience, the majority of the liberal arts grads I work with have no problem finding jobs after graduation if they are preparing for it outside the classroom.

    42. Chicken Little*

      I got my BA in French – with no teaching credentials. Duh. So I went into the Air Force – where they snapped me up as a linguist. When I got out, I went to library school using my G.I. Bill. Liberal arts folks are great as librarians because we have interests spread across a lot of subjects.

    43. Ad Astra*

      I grew up in a poor neighborhood of a relatively well-to-do college town. The adults in my life were constantly telling me that getting a degree in anything at all was my path out of poverty. I think “choose a major that will lead to a solid career” is a very middle class piece of advice.

      So, I chose to study journalism, which — to its credit — is a program designed to prepare students for careers in a specific field. The problem was that the field was rapidly shrinking (even faster than my professors and most pundits had predicted). My first job in 2011 paid $29,500 a year; a first-year public school teacher in the same city started at $39,500. My second job in a more expensive city in 2013 paid $36,000; a first-year public school teacher in that city started around $46,000. I went into journalism expecting to be paid about as well as a teacher — since nobody gets into either profession for the money, I assumed the money was similar, and I assumed it was better than what I had growing up.

      Actually, I might have been ok if I hadn’t borrowed an absurd amount of money to attend college. But, it turns out, nobody bothers explaining to poor kids how to avoid borrowing more than they can reasonably expect to pay back. I didn’t know any better, and neither did my parents.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        + 100 to your second paragraph. I experienced that first hand and will be paying these loans off for the rest of my life. Ugh.

    44. A. D. Kay*

      I earned a Master’s in English because I thought I was going to pursue a career in academia. I decided academia wasn’t a viable career path; I retool my skills and became a technical writer. There are a LOT of technical writers with advanced degrees in English.

    45. Blue Anne*

      I studied Philosophy because I enjoyed it in high school and all the adults in my life told me that as long as I went to college I would be fine. This was not because I’m a blue collar, first-in-my-family kid; I come from a family of professionals and academics and went to an artsy-fartsy private high school whose guidance counselor flipped her shit when one kid in my class didn’t want to go to college. But basically everyone was funneled into very good liberal arts schools.I think with both my mom and with my school, it was intellectual snobbery, honestly. It is so much more noble to work with ethics or pure mathematics or stage management than auditing or programming or mid-management! Blergh.

      I started in September 2007, so things started to look very different very quickly…

      Now, I’m really annoyed that no one gave me more practical advice. I haven’t had any trouble finding work, but I work in finance and I really wish I had a more relevant degree. I’m definitely at a professional disadvantage (now that I’m back in the USA) compared to my peers who studied accounting or business.

    46. pumpkin scone*

      1. Lack of awareness. I’m 42. When I went to college, just having a BA set you apart from the crowd; the actual major wasn’t that important. My classmates- almost all with liberal arts degrees- had no problem finding employment, and I’ve been steadily employed since getting my masters directly after the BA. I was shocked when my younger cousin got her BA 15 years later and had zero luck finding a decent job.

      2. College is not career prep. Talk to any professor at a 4-year college or university and they will tell you college is about education, not training. There’s a huge disconnect between the purpose of higher ed as seen by students, parents, and future employers, vs. what colleges are actually intended to do.

      3. You can’t predict what will be an employable major 4 years out. People went into engineering in the 1990s- only to see the defense industry get cut to the bone in the 1991 recession. Engineering dried up. and then- guess what- not enough engineers! So lots of people went into engineering. It’s very cyclical. There are lots of stories in the news about people thinking the next big job is going to be X, and then it’s not.

      4. Our state wants everyone to major in STEM. And yet current STEM grads are having difficulty finding jobs; there aren’t enough positions.

      IOW: There are no guarantees in anything.

    47. H.C.*

      It’s a combination of both, for me; I entered into college with a STEM major, but changed to a English & Communications double after realizing that I’d much rather write and make presentations than do labwork / engineering /coding /etc. Since I already had a strong science background, I was able to parlay that into healthcare/scientific writing and content marketing. (My initial hope was to go into journalism, but that field was already starting to cave by the time I was about to graduate – thus the career adjustment.)

      Given my changing majors & focuses several times in college, I don’t think one needs to enter college knowing what their exact career path. But one does need to use those 4-ish years to figure out their strengths and passions and how to turn that into something that pays (building skills, experience & connections in that field.)

    48. English degree*

      Honestly, it depends what you do with your degree. I have a BA and MA in English and I’m making six figures writing and editing documents for a Fortune 500 company and about $30K/year on the side freelancing for various clients.

      Most of the people in my literature classes wanted to be the next Pulitzer winner or only wanted to work as a fiction editor. Those are great dreams, albeit unrealistic. A lot of my friends who have creative or liberal arts degrees ended up doing just as well or better than the friends who had business or science degrees. Liberal arts degrees can be very versatile.

      Also, I would have been miserable studying business, science, or computer science. Sure, those degrees often lead to high paying fields, but if you’re going to be miserable studying a subject, you’re going to have a hard time passing a class. I didn’t want to study something and then pursue a career in it if I knew it would drive me out of my mind.

      People often like to focus on the negative aspects of liberal arts degrees, but they ignore all the people who have become wildly successful with them. The thing is, they’re usually not working in creative fields and a lot of successful creative people either come from money or never went to school for it.

      1. English degree*

        I should mention that I’m 29, and I graduated in 2008 when the economy exploded. I received a lot of advice to choose a major that would land me a good career, but I wanted to study literature because it was my passion and I knew I had excellent writing skills. I went in knowing I’d never write an award winning novel, edit a bestselling book, or make a lot of money in a traditional creative field.

    49. Clever Name*

      I know this doesn’t answer the question, but if you are a historian and have section 106 experience (not just historic preservation stuff), come to Colorado! We have a shortage of historians with this qualification. Really.

      2. ScarletInTheLibrary*

        Now that I think about it, my classmates that did the historic preservation tract in the public history degree have done better (with fewer hiccups desire graduating in 2008-2011) than the museum, archives, and cultural resource management folks. I think there are other things at play such as the archives profession has shifted toward preferring a MLIS instead of a public history degree for better or worse and the museum professor burned a lot of professional bridges. At one point in time, I considered either doing the MLIS or volunteering the hell out of myself and getting more section 106 experience (at that point it was two classes and a short-term records management contract at the SHPO).

    50. Mordecai*

      As for myself

      1. Didn’t really have any sense of having a Career rather than just a Job
      2. General cluelessness
      3. Went to university when the economy was still strong
      4. Planned to continue to a Masters in an applied subject (i.e., Social Work) – I didn’t do that in the end, but was thinking ahead to the world of work in that sense
      5. If I was spending all that money (and going to be working for the rest of my life), I might as well do something that I was passionate about and that I could learn a lot.

    51. Nethwen*

      I went to school to learn. For the BA, I figured if I was going to spend all that time on something, it might as well be something I enjoyed and I’d figure out the job later. Growing up, I was under the impression that few people had jobs in the field of their college degree, so college = job was never a connection for me like it seems to be for most people.

      For the graduate degree, it was because I wanted a masters and enjoyed working in a library, so there ya go… I headed to MLIS school.

      In retrospect, I can’t think of anything I could stand to do for 40+ hours a week that would be lucrative, so it all worked out.

    52. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      When most people think a MA in history, they think teaching. I hated the idea of teaching in a school setting but loved history. My undergrad was in broadcasting, so my plan was to get a MA in public history with an emphasis on museum studies so I could create documentaries for museums, etc. Almost every professional museum job requires a masters in a liberal arts degree (history, art history, archeology), which is why I went that route. A history undergrad is very useful, but it may be better to have another major and have history as the minor as an undergrad. The market is flooded because museums, archives, and historic preservation are “cool.” Having a non-history degree separates one from the pack.

      After the economy collapsed and being inflexible to move after graduation (met someone and long-distance was not an option), my path changed slightly. I ended up in archives, which is another branch of the public history tree (but the branch is small compared to the similar branch on the library science tree). Luckily the archives profession has been more proactive than the museum field on balancing the needs of new professionals and finding ways to make sure graduates have realistic expections.

    53. Seren*

      I graduated with a music performance degree, did some graduate work right after, and now I work at a hospital.

      I was passionate about music in high school, and it was my best subject. That was all I knew when I decided it as a major. I didn’t realize until junior year of college that the music path meant 7-8 total years in school, and then starting to audition for an open seat anywhere in the country/world. Looking back, I wish I would have done business or English. I am glad I did music performance as a major, but it would have been so helpful if a professor in my freshman year would have sat me down and asked me if the musician life was really what I wanted my life to look like.

      At the hospital, I’ve done pretty well considering lack of working knowledge. I’d held an internship and jobs of varying industries over the years so I’d proven I could make it work. The work ethic of practicing an instrument actually does translate well into other industries, just like my teachers tried to reassure me. When I come home I can ‘practice’ building my working knowledge. I come across well-disciplined, I can take criticism and apply it pretty immediately, and I can manage my nerves well. All in all it ended up working out. I don’t really make that much, but I’m happy with it because it is a huge improvement from previous years.

  12. Caledonia*

    I’m sure this has been discussed before but I saw a job opening for a “keyboard warrior”. WTF. You also need to “Assist the Equity Punk Ranger with Equity Punk projects and events when required.” There is also no salary range listed.

    This is ridiculous….anyone got any other ones? I know Subway has “sandwich artists”. *eyeroll*

    1. lulu*

      Keyboard Warrior… that sounds like a really bad superhero movie.
      (OT: I thought AntMan with Paul Rudd was a parody until it actually came out)

    2. Seal*

      “Search ninja” for a librarian position. I’ll be that looks ridiculous on a business card.

      1. Not Karen*

        I knew of a reference librarian whose official title was Director of Knowledge and Learning.

        I have to admit I really like the title Solution Architect though I have no idea what one actually does!

        1. Susan*

          I’ve been a Solution Architect. It was something similar to a technical architect – having the ability to describe and design a functional multipart system, end to end; in my case I worked on data systems. It was a step above a position like Senior Engineer/Developer, but less heavily embedded into the technical details than a Technical Architect would be.

      1. Jules the First*

        I was the ‘Resident Genius’ for a while at one job. Translation: the ‘person who does everything we didn’t know we needed to do’. My job description was basically ‘duties as required’. Man that job was fun…

      2. Caledonia*

        It’s for a local craft brewery – it fits in with their image but I’m just eyerolling so hard I can’t take it seriously.

    5. K.*

      What does that even mean? Like, what will that person be doing all day? It sounds like a data entry job, but it could be anything!

    6. Wendy Darling*

      I’m in tech so I see job listings wanting “rockstars” and “ninjas” and “unicorns” all damn day. Also job descriptions calling for “data wizardry” a lot. It’s obnoxious.

      Although my funny true story about this: When I was looking for jobs I kept seeing job ads for “Epic Coder” and “Epic Developer” and I was like, jeez, is epic the new rockstar/ninja or what? People really need to cool it. Then after actually MONTHS of eyerolling I realized that Epic is the name of an electronic medical records system and they were all hiring people specifically to work with that system. Sorry, job ads I rolled my eyes at!

      1. SL #2*

        HAHAHA we work with lots of medical clinics and some of them have adopted Epic and I giggle to myself every time.

      3. Manders*

        Hah! I see lots of “gurus” and “ninjas” around here. Something about it feels racist in a way that’s hard to put my finger on. Why is it always something from a non-European culture in companies that are almost all young, white people?

      4. Gillian*

        The hospital I work at went through an Epic implementation and it was getting a bit crazy by the end – Epic plans, Epic emails, Epic tshirts. I wanted something to be plain or boring or ordinary by the end of it all.

    7. Lily in NYC*

      Ugh, I’ve seen this more than once: A receptionist with the title: Director of First Impressions. So stupid.

      1. Snazzy Hat*

        Yep, my last workplace’s receptionist had that on her nameplate! Then again, they were big on titles. A few years back the people who worked there went from being “employees” to “associates” because I guess that changes something.

      2. Emilia Bedelia*

        I worked at a place like this. Our receptionist/PR person/etc (it was a small place) was pulling very hard for an intern so that their title would be “Director of Second Impressions”. I laughed

  13. Revolver Rani*

    Hey, I have the same birthday as Alison! :D Let’s both have an awesome day. I’ll have a drink for you tonight.

    2. Lillie Lane*

      I’ll have a drink for both of you tonight. But it’s not my birthday — it’s just been that kind of week!

      1. Revolver Rani*

        I understand completely, and I’m very pleased to give you an excuse to have a drink. ;)

    5. the gold digger*

      And it’s Primo’s birthday, too! I baked a cake last night and started to frost it this morning (working from home), but The Engineer took over because I was not being precise enough.

      Who cares about precision when chocolate frosting is involved? :)

      Happy birthday, all you Friday the 13th-ers!

    7. SophieChotek*

      Happy Birthday! I’ll go to Starbucks later today and claim I was getting expensive drink to celebrate your birthday and Allisons and JMegan’s daughter…

  14. Tiffany*

    I received an intern application this morning. The cover letter is as follows:

    “I think you should give me this job because I really want it.”

    That’s it. Nothing else. I really really want to reply back saying “Did you really think that would work”?

      1. esra*

        Have I mentioned how much my job should give me 20 weeks vacation, because I really, really want it?

        2. SophieChotek*

          +1

          And I would like to get a paid 4-year vacation…because I don’t just want it, I need it….

    2. Mockingjay*

      Since this is an intern, would you be willing to reach back and gently instruct them as to why the cover ‘sentence’ didn’t work?

      I have the feeling that they got some awful advice from some online blog (NOT Alison’s!), thinking that would set them above the rest of the crowd.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t accept this person, but I’d definitely give some advice. This definitely sounds like the result of awful / outdated advice.

      2. Tiffany*

        Once I stop laughing, maybe. I mean, I get that there’s some really bad advice out there, I’ve gotten it myself. However, I can’t imagine that anyone would ever think this is a good idea….I feel like this is just someone who didn’t even try or who applied as a joke. Either that, or they have parents that gave them whatever they wanted just because they wanted it. I’ll most likely respond with something similar to Pineapple Incident’s suggestion down below.

        1. Kelly L.*

          My guess is someone trying to meet the letter but not the spirit of something.

          Like their internship prep class says “You must apply to 10 places” and they don’t really want to work at this place, it’s just to check the box. Or they promised their mom they’d apply there, but don’t really want to work there.

          Or, long shot, they thought it would land in the hands of someone else, someone who knows them personally. I once dated a guy who wrote a cover letter in crayon and about this length. It was for a seasonal job he’d worked several years running, and the hiring manager was a close friend of his, but there was a rule from higher up that he had to reapply each time, so it got to be a joke and a formality.

          1. Tiffany*

            I could see it being the former….but this wasn’t an intern for my day job but for a side project/website I run, so chances of it being the latter are slim. We’re only a few months old and have tripled in size since launch (though, seeing as we started with just me, tripled just means now there’s 3 of us). I haven’t even gotten the other 2 on the website yet, so I’m really the only public face.

          2. MsChanandlerBong*

            I totally read that as “in crayon and about his length.” I was wondering what kind of hiring manager would be worried about an applicant’s length!

          3. Snazzy Hat*

            there was a rule from higher up that he had to reapply each time, so it got to be a joke and a formality.

            Years ago my s.o. was given a job offer before he completed his application. His supervisor (who was the interviewer, btw) knew me professionally as a stellar former employee, and I knew the supervisor had a sense of humor.

            One of the application questions was, “how will you get to work?” Not sure why it was there, and it wasn’t important anyway. I convinced my s.o. to put down “sharkapult”, a fictitious weapon seen in a museum on the show Futurama.

      3. Florida*

        I would not “gently instruct” them as to why their cover letter was problematic.
        If you are so inclined, ASK the person if they would like advice. If they say No, resist the urge to give it. Wait until you have a definite Yes before you give any advice.
        Unsolicited advice is like junk mail. No one wants it. No one pays attention to it.
        It doesn’t matter how young or old you are or how much or little experience you have – no one should have to listen to someone else’s judgment (advice, by definition requires the advisor’s judgement) because you don’t like their cover letter. If someone gives you permission (Yes, I would love your advice!), that’s a different story.

    5. K.*

      I’m going to give this person the benefit of the doubt and guess that she got some bad advice somewhere about making cover letters stand out, and this is the route she chose. But still … yikes.

    6. Pineapple Incident*

      That’s a really unprofessional, incomplete letter. If you email them back, I’d remain perfectly professional so maybe this person will understand how stupid that was. Something to the effect of “Since the cover letter included with your application materials failed to speak to your qualifications or accomplishments and did not address why you are interested in an intern position with our organization, we will not be moving forward with your candidacy for this role.”

      1. JaneB*

        Hmmm, it’s VERY like the approach of most undergraduates to marks: “I want an A so you should give me one”

      3. Not Shannon*

        I think this is the best option. This actually sounds like something I might have done as a teenager– I’m imagining asking an adult what a cover letter was, the adult explaining simply that “it’s a letter that explains why you want the job”, and me not asking for more information because I didn’t know I needed any more, then taking that extremely literally because I didn’t know any better.

        Getting a letter like this would definitely sting, but it would also spell out exactly what I needed to do for the next one.

    10. themmases*

      Ha! I love that.

      My school holds student elections by having each person write a little essay on their qualifications and what they would do in the job. It goes up on the ballot which is basically just a Qualtrics survey.

      Which is how I know that this approach, just with more words, is apparently incredibly common. The shortest I’ve ever seen was more like three sentences, but still following the format of “this job would be such a great opportunity *for me*”. Well it would look great on everyone’s resume so maybe we should let everyone call themselves class president! It is a huge pet peeve of mine and I will always vote against it or, if they’re unopposed, not vote for that position.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      “I think I gave this job to someone who showed they were qualified because that’s what I really want.”

    12. Nethwen*

      I absolutely believe that happened and the person thought it wasn’t a problem. Working in a public library, I see people do things like that all the time. My guess is that somehow they believe that if the box is checked (application- check, cover letter- check), they have a chance at the job, the quality of the submission is irrelevant.

      There are so many times that I suggest someone might want to fix the misspelling in their attachment title or that they need to include something in the body of the e-mail, not just send a blank e-mail with an attachment, and the response is, “Nah, it’s fine.” And then they sit and loudly discuss with their friends how they would have a job if someone would just give them a chance.

    13. Julie Noted*

      I once received am application for a public service job in which the cover letter explained that the applicant had formerly been in the public service, and if she rejoined now would quality for early retirement and a large pension in 18 months’ time. And that’s the sole reason given for wanting the job. Points for honesty, points off for commitment and nous.

  15. Dawn*

    Any tips for how to deal with feeling lonely in a management position? I’m functioning like a management consultant/ operations manager at my company and my role has me working directly with the President, the CEO, and the #3 in command (in a 35 person company). When I started my role hadn’t fleshed out into what it is now and I was friendly with everyone, got invited to walk to lunch, that kinda thing. I have *definitely* noticed that is no longer happening and I’m being treated as “management” now- which is fine, and a good thing within the parameters of my job, I am just kinda… well a little lonely, and I don’t quite know how friendly to be with everyone. I still am totally chipper and say good morning and ask about their weekend and stuff, I just don’t know how much further to take it than that.

    It’s been a bit of a head trip for me to realize that I’m seen as knowing a bunch of stuff and being in a position of power because I don’t feel any different, I just feel like the same ole me as I was when I started.

    1. LCL*

      Get used to it. The distancing is inevitable when you get into a quasi-management role. Continue to be chipper and social. Go to the occasional after hours function if invited, and tell them when you will be there. Being able to professionally keep your distance will help you in your dealings with upper management when you have to advocate for your group. And if you are doing an operations manager job you will have to advocate for your group against upper management sometimes.

    2. TCO*

      Would it help to build connections with similar-role colleagues at other companies? That won’t help with the day-to-day hallway greetings and lunch invites, but it will give you a support network of “equals” with whom you can talk through the loneliness issue and others.

      I know that when I’ve been in roles that are somewhat isolating (like I’m the only person in my role/department) I’ve found a lot of professional support from having a network of peers that I meet through professional groups, etc.

      1. Dawn*

        Oh man that’s a really good idea! I’m in DC too so I imagine I can find some good groups to join. I kinda feel like I’m “learning how to adult” in this role because it’s the first time in a job I’ve had complete freedom plus the ear of the company owners.

      2. Silver Radicand*

        Yeah, I agree. I am the sole manager at the location I work with, so I try to build connections with colleagues who work for my client (but outside my chain of command).

    3. wonkette*

      I think about this issue sometimes because I’ve had bosses in the past who were either too friendly with their staff or too distant. I wonder if it’s helpful to set regular lunch or coffee dates with the staff just as a “I want to get to know you” gesture. Also, it’s good to talk with people outside of your organization who’re at the same career level as you to discuss issues that you may have (ex. managing, budgeting, etc). This may be useful in reducing the sense of loneliness that you feel as well as recognizing that there’re topics you can’t freely talk to your staff anymore.

    5. Mike C.*

      Get some budget to take teams out to lunch (or bring lunch in) for doing well or times when you need to get feedback, that sort of thing. Not only does this solve your problem, but it also has great business justifications.

    6. memyselfandi*

      I have a similar problem compounded by that fact that I am a bit socially isolated outside of work as well due to friends moving, family changes, etc. It makes me over-share with my staff. Time to make more of an effort!

    7. Rocky*

      This was one of the hardest things for me when I moved into management, and I wasn’t anticipating it at all. Building a network of peers outside my organization has helped a lot, and I occasionally socialize with one peer manager here so we can both, uh, vent about stuff. But those relationships took a couple years to cultivate. Be patient. I go to pretty much every work function I’m invited to, and take people to lunch/coffee every so often, but it’s not the same kind of interaction.

      1. Girasol*

        It’s the venting I miss. When I’m managing I hate the mean sniping and backbiting I see on the team and discourage it when I can. But I also know that’s what I used to do – vent about stupid coworker and stupid manager and stupid company. Now I see how ugly and counterproductive that is, and as a manager I don’t indulge anymore. But I still miss it. Rather a lot. And I miss the work friendships that arise from that sort of joint kvetching. TCO’s comment above – friends from outside the company – rings true for me. The monthly meeting of the professional society occasionally falls into war stories and it’s a relief.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Shift your expectations of what a good interaction looks like.
      Deliberately decide that you now enjoy exchanging pleasantries a bit more.
      If you share a laugh with someone that is a good thing, not something to skate by unnoticed.
      Take deeper satisfaction in knowing your people to the extent of what they want to share. You remember Sam has a dog named Trevor; Holly’s neighbor plays his stereo too loud and so on.
      Think of part of your job as being “taking care” of your people so that they in turn can take care of you. That does not sound so lonely, right? It sounds more like a reciprocal relationship with everyone taking care of everyone, but in different ways.

      So, while no one invites you for walks, you have other things now that you did not have before. Here’s the key, if we start to try to convince ourselves that we are alone, we probably will be successful. Not a great road to start down, right? I’d encourage you to look closer at the good stuff that is happening around you.

  16. Yes I am Type A But This is a MESS!*

    Help! My boss is a hoarder! I work in a nonprofit that is bursting at the seams (5 people in my office, 8 in another). My boss is the only person with his own office. It’s FILLED with papers, trash, boxes, stuff related and un-related to work. The problem? My job is to cultivate major donors and they like to come see our work in action. Since the other offices have so many staff, we like to meet in the boss’s office. It’s filled with so many things though that we can’t even sit in there. So we end up kicking everyone else out of my shared office every time I hold a meeting. I’ve tried to suggest that tidying up would make us look more credible to potential donors, but so far it seems to be getting worse rather than better. Even if we meet somewhere else, his office is very visible to visitors. Others are also becoming increasingly sloppy (why bother cleaning my stuff up when there’s that tornado over there?).

    Is a messy office maybe not as big of an issue as I’m making it? Do you think potential donors (clients) really care? Is it worth standing my ground and telling people to grow up and clean up their mess?

    1. E*

      It’s worth asking your boss if you can assist in straightening up the office and creating guidelines for the office to create & maintain a cleaner space. Trash definitely should not be kept, paper and boxes are harder to reduce just because it takes time and effort. If your boss is amenable to the cleanup, even in small increments, perhaps they just are overwhelmed at the project and your volunteering will be accepted. If not, at least you tried.

    2. Manders*

      Ick, that would bother me too, and I’m not exactly type A. Do you think your boss is actually hoarding, or just too busy and overwhelmed to clean?

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      I’ve cleaned up a bosses office that was like that before. Somebody will have to do it, and it won’t be him. Talk with him and see if there is some reason to the mess. Then you can address the appearance issue, again, and offer solutions.

    4. KR*

      Our office is extremely messy. We don’t have the public drop in often, but they do from time to time and I’m with you in the fact that we don’t really have a clear space for them to sit (several different office chairs usually cluttered up). It’s a bit different for me because I’m his admin, so I count it as part of my job description to pick up the office. What I do is have clean up days probably twice/thrice a year where I take everything out of the office, clean everything, and then put back the essentials. Everything that we might be able to get rid of or that I’m not sure if it’s trash goes in a pile. At that point I call my boss to have him come over, and he sits down and does the basic “keep/toss/surplus” through the pile.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I spoke with a boss who had tendencies to keep too much. Fortunately, we got along well most of the time. So I could draw on that good relationship to have a chat. Initially, he was quite upset, so I talked about my own issues of keeping too much. I saved everything my parents had and then realized my house was a museum, not a home… I went on talking about my own foibles. This helped him to catch himself and calm down. We had a nice chat about how stuff accumulates because we. just. can’t. toss. it. and he agreed to clean up some stuff.

      BUT. here’s the catch. I started the conversation because I thought he would listen and actually do something. With what you describe here, I might say, “You know. Donors see this and it makes them wonder if their check is somewhere, uncashed, in one of these piles. If you would like me to help you fix this, I would be glad to. Just let me know.”

  17. matcha123*

    I don’t have much confidence in what I do and I feel that when I’ve gone on interviews it’s been something that’s pulled me off the short-list.
    I feel like unless I can confidently do something way better than another person, I have no right to give an authoritative answer. Moreover, I feel like there will always be someone better, faster and more qualified. Since I have no way of knowing whether or not I’m below average, average or “superstar” at my job (I’ve never been given a review in any job I’ve worked at), how should I approach these types of questions? When it comes to thinking about salary in particular, I feel like I have nothing to offer anyone, but at the same time I need to live, pay bills and have enough to save.

    1. Dawn*

      “I feel like unless I can confidently do something way better than another person, I have no right to give an authoritative answer. Moreover, I feel like there will always be someone better, faster and more qualified.”

      I struggle with this on an almost daily basis, and it is literally my JOB to tell my company what to do. Honestly, I’ve found that in pretty much any job other than medicine or law, “good enough” is perfectly fine and the vast, vast, vast majority of people that you work for just want stuff to get done on time and good enough that it passes muster.

      Also, most people are just looking for answers and aren’t going to care too much about where they come from. I’ve solved complex issues by following what came up in the first hit in a Google search, no lie. I propose what seems, to me, BLINDINGLY obvious solutions to issues and get treated like I’m some sort of Oracle. Stuff like “Oh my god what should we do about this underperforming employee?!?!” and my suggestion of “Put them on a PIP? Fire them if they fail the PIP?” is treated like it’s the best idea ever oh my god how amazing.

      Additionally, I’m continuously amused by how the majority of people at any job are just punching the clock and doing the bare minimum to get by and are completely and totally OK with that. I’ve had to realize that *those* are my peers that I should compare myself to, and not the one off superstar rockstar employee who has some sort of perpetual motion and works 80 hours a week.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Solid answer! I was going to say something similar; it’s hard to struggle with imposter syndrome when you’ve been trained to do what you like but feel like you haven’t done enough of it or aren’t enough of a star to deserve a position. I’ve been applying for higher level positions (I’m entry-level in a position only tangentially related to what I’d like to be doing) and am only just now realizing that I do have what it takes to do what I love! Compare yourself to those who aren’t doing enough and give yourself a pat on the back :) Hang in there!

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      I’ve sent out two-dozen applications since January 1st, so I’m with you, also lacking confidence. But a few things stand out in your comment and I shall address them.

      I feel like there will always be someone better, faster and more qualified.
      There will be, but think of how you can use that to your advantage.
      Better at the job you want? Maybe you develop a better rapport with the hiring manager in the interview. Faster? Maybe you’re more accurate and make fewer mistakes. More qualified? I direct you to Alison’s interviewee who, and I quote from How To Get A Job, had “no direct experience in the area she was applying in” but in a previous job “had juggled an enormous workload, stayed highly organized, and been generally indispensable”.

      I’ve never been given a review in any job I’ve worked at
      Neither have I. Supervisors and coworkers and customers have given me kudos, but I have never had a performance review, and for most of my work history my accomplishments were not even measured. Imagine these dialogues:
      Interviewer: “What did your employee reviews/evaluations say about you?”
      You: “Actually, I’ve never received one. They just weren’t done in my workplaces.”
      …or…
      Interviewer: “Matcha indicated that performance reviews were not conducted.”
      Old Boss: “That’s correct.”
      …or…
      Interviewer: “Can you summarize your employee evaluations?”
      You: “Well, we didn’t get evaluations, but [stuff you knew about your performance just from context].”

      When it comes to thinking about salary in particular, I feel like I have nothing to offer anyone, but at the same time I need to live…
      Oh my goodness, I am there. Check out averages for those jobs’ pay rates in your area. Thankfully some applications will ask for ranges. You deserve the kind of salary that will end your job search. That can be different from place to place and from person to person, but I didn’t bat an eye when I was working part-time at CocoaPots for $X/hr and got an offer for full-time at Leaf Juice Vessels for $1.5X/hr. If I was living whilst working at CocoaPots part-time, I knew I could live comfortably on a full-time salary at Leaf Juice Vessels. (Note: this also worked in reverse. When I went from a Leaf Juice Vessels income to no income at all, I already knew how to pinch pennies.)

      In short, I know it sounds cheesy, but you are the best at being yourself, and although it may take a while, you will come across an employer who will love that.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Let’s break this down.

      1)I feel like unless I can confidently do something way better than another person, I have no right to give an authoritative answer.

      Most people feel this way. You do not have to present things you say as gospel truth. You can say, “Well, in my experience, I have had good luck doing Y first THEN X. I think the reasons for that are A, B and C.” Notice all the qualifiers: in my experience, good luck, I think. You do not have to stand there and say “Well you gotta do Y before X, because that is the only way to do it.”
      It’s fine to agree that someone else might have a different idea. It’s fine to show reasons for why you do something a particular way. The problems only come in when people think they are know-it-alls. Give a nod that others may do it differently, then show how you do it.

      2) I feel like there will always be someone better, faster and more qualified.

      Well this is true. That is why I never say I am the best. Don’t proclaim yourself to be something you cannot prove.
      They may have hired the best before you and everyone hated her. But they all like you. There is more than one way we fit into a job and more than one way we are of value to the company.
      I do not know my job. I am probably mediocre at it. My boss LOVES me because I am willing to take on some crazy stuff and I actually get some results. And I can keep track of all 129 balls that are in the air all the time. Am I the best? heck no.

      3) Since I have no way of knowing whether or not I’m below average, average or “superstar” at my job (I’ve never been given a review in any job I’ve worked at), how should I approach these types of questions?

      Be honest and be sincere. Start there. Next, never underestimate the power of being honest and being sincere. My boss said to me the other day, “You always come tell me when you find your own mistakes. It doesn’t get any better than that.”
      As others have suggested simply say you have never had a review. Maybe you could say, “But I have gotten compliments on how I organized X or took charge of Y when no one else was available.” Or “People notice when I called in sick because they tell me that there are problems with A and B.” Give specific examples of times where others noticed and commented. These people could be anyone, they do not have to be your boss.

      4) When it comes to thinking about salary in particular, I feel like I have nothing to offer anyone, but at the same time I need to live, pay bills and have enough to save.

      This one is tough because I don’t know you and I cannot see what you might be overlooking. I tend not to believe this is as bad as you are saying, but let’s go with it. Is there some way you can invest in yourself so you DO feel like you have something to offer? Can you take a couple courses in something? Can you do some volunteer work adjacent to your own work?
      Do you have a compliments file? You can jot down compliments, put the date and who said it, then collect them up in a file. If you get a nice email then print it out and put it in the file.
      When talking about salary try to find the range for your area. What are people getting paid to do your type of work? You should be getting something that is in keeping with the range for people in your job.

      1. matcha123*

        Thank you, too!
        Along with the poster above, you’ve really given me some great ideas to ponder!

  18. TCO*

    Crying at work:

    I’m a pretty easy crier. In the past, I used to cry at work maybe once a year during a tough/stressful discussion (and always just one-on-one with my boss). It wasn’t ideal, but it wasn’t really disruptive. When I’m crying I’m still thinking and talking just fine.

    Something is different about my current job. There are some stressful conditions and some things that have led me to question whether I’m actually good at this work (I am, though, and my performance is viewed very positively), whether this job is the right fit for me, etc. The tears are happening a lot more often, partially because there are more tough conversations about how to make me and this job fit together well. My bosses are really compassionate and emphathetic people, but in a recent performance review it was made clear that the crying (or showing too much emotion in general) is starting to hold me back.

    The typical strategies, like biting my lip or looking at the ceiling or asking for a moment, aren’t working for me. I need a more psychological approach. Any tips to help work through the stress and have candid, vulnerable conversations without crying every time? I’ve explored it a bit with past therapists but never made any progress, but I’m thinking it might be time to have a few sessions specifically focused on this issue because there are definitely some underlying stressors. Other advice that could help?

    1. regina phalange*

      I used to have this problem. Some things that helped me:
      1) If you can, go to the bathroom to collect yourself. Obviously harder to do this during meetings, but if you feel yourself starting to get emotional in general, just step outside, go to the bathroom, take a few deep breaths. It is never as bad as you fear.

      2) Feed off others reactions – find coworkers who you think handle stress well, watch them in meetings, try to emulate them. I found that helped me tremendously – that person wasn’t getting emotional, so why should I?

      3) Time – I’m in the right job now, so that helped a lot. Previous toxic job was awful and hard for me to always do the above two, and it took time here to learn that not everything is the end of the world. But it’s not. If I make a mistake, no one dies, so it’s okay, and I suspect that is the case with you too.

      4) Practicing my poker face in meetings. Even if I was feeling upset/stressed/annoyed, etc, I practiced keeping it all internal and trying to keep my voice even and facial expressions neutral. Easier said than done at times but after a while it just came to me naturally.

      Good luck!!

    2. ANONtoday*

      I don’t usually post anonymously, but this is kinda so absurd I don’t really want anyone else to know I do it. I’m an easy crier too. Like will still cry during Lion King after seeing it a dozen times… If I get to that point at work, for some strange reason, I got into the habit of repeating, “Penis. Vagina.” over and over (obviously in my head). No clue why, but something about the absurdity and the immediate side-tracking my brain gets from this just kind of shuts off the emotion enough for me to get over it. Odd and weird, but so am I. : )

      On a deeper level, I agree with your assessment that it’s worth speaking with someone about the increase in emotion and seeing if there is something else going on. Some medications can also cause changes in mood and behavior. If you’re a woman, birth control is one that can cause drastic emotional differences – even if you just changed the type of birth control you used, they are all different. You’ve probably already eliminated that side of things if you are speaking with someone, but I just wanted to bring it up.

      1. TCO*

        You know, that’s great advice about checking my meds. I started taking a prescription headache medicine last year that’s actually a mild antidepressant, so there could definitely be some emotional side effects that I attributed entirely to the stress of my job. I’m not sure how likely it is but it’s definitely worth my exploring it with my doctor.

        1. blackcat*

          Yes, do!

          I thought I had mild anxiety for years and years. Turns out, BC pills had been given me anxiety.

          Lots of drugs affect mood in mild ways, and it’s a great idea to ask a doc about it.

      2. CM*

        ANONtoday, your technique sounds perfect. It is so ridiculous, and in this situation you need ridiculousness to distract you from emotion. I am totally going to try this. Thank you!

        Someone told me once that CBT worked for them on a similar issue rather than traditional therapy? I can’t vouch for it, but it may be worth looking into.

    4. TootsNYC*

      Someone once told me, “get mad, just don’t cry.”

      I found that trying to channel my anger into appropriate expression kept me from crying; the crying was coming because I was trying to completely supress the emotion (fear, frustration, anger, whatever).

      And I’ll also say, talking to a cognitive behavioral therapist, or some other behavioral / cognitive type therapist, for targeted help with this might be good, because some exercises on mental framing might really help.

    5. Argh!*

      Perhaps it’s time to consult with a psychiatrist rather than or addition to a therapist. You may need medication.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I have to say, this is the only thing that helped me. I was a terrible crier. Still am. When I was on meds, it was so much better for me. I didn’t go to a psychiatrist, though– my psychologist recommended the drugs (to me, nothing formal), my primary care physician prescribed. I think that’s pretty common, but I was very lucky– my PCP trusted the recommendation, asked me a few questions, and monitored my meds very closely. I was on a pretty low dose of Wellbutrin for several years. I continued to deal with the underlying issues in talk therapy, but the meds were a wonderful help.

        Now I’m off the meds, have been for about 4 years, and I really, really want to go back on something. I have new doctors now, though, so it’s not so easy!

    6. designbot*

      Similar to this, I distract myself with the most unemotional stuff I can imagine. I started with baseball (because I was inspired by the stereotype of a dude trying to put off the big O), but have found such gems as street sweeping, filing, and making a list of things I need to shop for at home work too. If I can get myself to think about the fact that we’re almost out of shampoo and cat food, that’s enough distraction to pull me out of it.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You know, I had an odd thought. Why not teach yourself how to have a hard conversation with an employee? There’s all kinds of books out there on how to talk to people, how to have difficult conversations and how give feedback to an employee.
      Maybe if you read about this from a boss’ perspective you might gain some new insights. Just pretend you are the boss and you must explain to an employee that they should do A not B. How would you go about doing this? It might be a source of empowerment because you learn about the process of feedback.

      See, sometimes emotions kick in because we don’t know what to do/say/expect. Years ago, I got sick and it made driving tough. I became scared to drive. Before it was over, I ended making myself take a driver’s safety course. Going that first time was terrible. But I had to do it. I had to learn more about driving to work through my new problems with driving. That was about 20 years ago. You know what? I just took a driver’s safety course on line and I actually ENJOYED it. What a difference from where I was at.
      I’m not saying that you will enjoy feedback in the future- no, no. But I am saying that you can change the way you react to things by getting more knowledge about what the process is that is causing you upset. Knowledge is power.

      The other thing you can do is what I call, “planned cries”. We have thousands of reasons why we weep. I went through some losses in my life and found myself crying at the wrong times. So I did planned cries. Usually sad songs can get me started pretty reliably. I would put on some sad music and make myself cry. I did this at home, when it was convenient for me. The next day, I felt stronger, more resilient and I didn’t start crying over a box of cereal or any of a number of stupid triggers.

      FWIW, the boss is short-sighted. With many people the quickest way to get them to stop crying is to tell them it is okay to cry. If you tell a person to STOP crying, they usually cry longer, not shorter. Find times when you can tell yourself it is okay to cry and then let the tears flow.

  19. Queen of the Lab*

    I enjoyed the link to the article about socioeconomic “straddlers” at work a couple of weeks ago. I am a socioeconomic straddler and I feel like I don’t quite belong anywhere, more so because of my level of education than my salary. I come from a working class background: 2nd generation to live off the farm on both sides, I have one aunt and uncle that went to a local technical college in the 1970s, but I am the first generation college graduate in the direct line. I am now one year away from completing my masters degree. My particular career path (natural resource management) is pretty straddley since there is a lot of interaction with working class field and law enforcement types and with white collar academics and policy makers. I consider myself working class but the other working class people disagree (even though I still hunt, fish, camp,would rather eat a bbq place than someplace with multiple forks at the place setting, etc.). I am definitely not a middle class person. I once had a British professor compliment me on my sophisticated use of English. Only many years later did I realize it was because of my background that he was surprised. I think the best strategy is to keep my mouth shut and let the middle class people at work assume I am one of them. What do other straddlers do to cope with this weird status at work?

    1. Student*

      Fake it until we really are middle class.

      Try not to scare the middle-class folks too bad by not talking about the blue-collar background; stories I think are funny or topical are often terrifying to people who’ve lived a better life than I have. Try to dress “better” even though I hate doing so, and resolutely pretend I know what to do with all the forks. Smash through their dithering, but occasionally, when it makes an impact, instead of every time I want to. Try to understand their interests and respect their problems, even though some of them are difficult for me to grasp or sympathize with.

      1. AVP*

        all of us “born in the upper middle class” people are doing the same thing with the forks! I don’t think anyone really understands their usage.

        1. TootsNYC*

          People get this wrong.

          The person who gets all the responsibility for the forks, and al the blame, is the person who set the table, and the person who clears it between courses.

          The person who’s eating just picks up the fork that’s easiest to get ahold of (that’s the one on the outside) and eats. Bingo.

        2. Queen of the Lab*

          Hee hee. I have a fish knife that I have been using as a way to get the butter out of the tray for years. I only know what it is now from watching Rizzoli & Isles. I still use it for the butter.

        3. KiteFlier*

          I learned from “Titanic” – work from the outside in. Outer most fork the first course, etc. Although, dessert forks go at the top of the place setting.

    2. Emmie*

      I represented a client as a lawyer in a pro bono case. The person’s financial stuggles were personal to me. I remembered what that was like before getting my degrees. When I told the client a variation of that, s/he looked me up and down, and sighed in a way that let me know s/he thought I was really out of touch and knew nothing about his/her situation. I realized then that although I may remember those nightmare-ish struggles, my own people will never believe me. Caught between both worlds! Does anyone remember the book referenced in that thread?

      1. JJtheDoc*

        The book is Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams, by Alfred Lubrano. Really good and some very helpful insights, says this straddler!

          1. the gold digger*

            The Ruby Payne book that someone had recommended here – A Framework for Understanding Poverty – is also very interesting for understanding the cultural divides between classes.

    3. Guinness*

      Ooooh… I struggle with this too. I am solidly middle class now, but grew up lower class (or at least very low middle class), we always had a roof over our heads but paying basic bills were a challenge… there was some food insecurity, etc. My biggest frustration right now is dealing with co-workers who see people and say “they don’t look poor/like they need this assistance/etc.) and it makes me crazy, because there is just so much you don’t know. I’ve said something once or twice, and it’s largely been ignored and people still make their comments. I just wish some people had some more compassion and less judgement.
      I will say, though, that I camp and eat bbq way more now than I did growing up lower class (we can actually afford trips and eating out now!) :).

      2. the gold digger*

        I am not sure what we were when I was a kid – my dad was in the military so medical and dental care was never an issue, but there was not a lot of steak or eating out when I was a kid and there was a lot of oatmeal in the meatloaf.

        My question about eating out is has it always been a thing for the middle class to eat out a lot? and with their kids? and I never saw it because my family was not in the right class? or has life changed a lot in the past 40 years where now eating out is no longer a big deal for anyone?

    4. Queen of the Lab*

      I don’t want to be middle class. I have a working class spouse with a mostly-working class job and we live in a very nice rural area. I mostly just want an interesting job (done) and a middle class salary (mostly done) to pay off the ridiculous student loans I ended up with. Most of my classmates moved back home when we graduated and there weren’t many jobs. That was never an option for me and I am just now getting ahead financially. I guess I should get good at pretending then?

      1. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

        Part of my own negotiation of this was letting go of my contempt for the “middle class.” It was a solid, necessary defense mechanism growing up poor. It does not serve me now.

    5. Jules the First*

      Can I just say (without triggering any mournful miniature violins, please) that the same disconnet applies to the next rung up?

      I grew up very solidly upper middle class and now work for the very very wealthy and titled and while I still feel very much out of place in that world, I also don’t entirely fit with the middle class people I grew up around either. I guess my mom is right and exposure to the kind of people who wear $1,000 shoes really does change you…

      1. Laura*

        I’m glad you said this! I grew up upper-middle class but was raised to believe that we had less money than we did. It gave me a very skewed view of the world and I’m still struggling to find where I feel most comfortable.

        1. Lily Evans*

          My situation is kind of the opposite, but I understand where you’re coming from. My mom’s side of the family are WASP wannabes and I always thought we had way more money than we did. Turns out my mom and grandma are just terrible with spending and buy nice things that they can’t actually afford! It’s totally skewed my perception money. I’m also weirdly between the lines in my main friend group where half is solidly upper middle class and the other half lower middle class. I can’t drop $1k on a weekend vacation without notice, but I’ve also never had to worry about not having enough money to go out for the night. I’m so grateful to be comfortable financially, but at the same time it feels weird not to have a solid “place”.

    6. Argh!*

      Who cares what class you’re in? What will having a label do for you?

      You have the great advantage of being able to communicate effectively with a diverse workforce, which you should be proud of. Are you working while you complete your degree? You may be experiencing more of the “moving up” syndrome more than straddling, much like people who get promoted and then supervise people who used to be coworkers.

      Having the respect of the “regular” people will help you go far. I speak from experience here, having come from a distressed family situation, and having worked at “gruntwork” jobs during the summers in undergrad and grad school. It helps me get things done, see things from various perspectives, and makes it a joy to move from room to room or department to department or to meet new people. People who have never been around others who are not mirror images of themselves find those experiences stressful.

      1. Queen of the Lab*

        The label doesn’t interest me much, except that I sometimes get contempt from the other working class folks. Not because I’m being hoity-toity, but because they think I’m “over educated”. I actually had a job interview once where one of the interviewers went on about my lack of regional accent and the other told me she didn’t like educated people and that she had always worked in retail prior to ending up in a manager position in natural resource management. I now know wearing a suit to that interview was a mistake. I never heard back from them but then my spouse got a different position with them. The second manager (then my spouse’s boss) then proceeded to tell me to my face that I was over educated. I later found out that it was a sham interview, the guy who went in before me already had a job. I often get raised eyebrows in this very rural, economically depressed area, for having a bachelor’s degree.

        1. Observer*

          Every social level has its bigots. And its idiots. Of course, the two groups overlap, and so you get the idiot manager who won’t hire educated people because they are horrible and can’t do the job.

          But is that really your typical experience? Raised eyebrows are one thing. Ongoing disrespect is another.

          This is not a challenge. I’m really curious.

          1. Queen of the Lab*

            Ongoing condescension is pretty common in the community, so I now usually just keep to myself. It is generally not an issue at my current position but I hope to go elsewhere, eventually, after finishing my master’s degree. As it was pointed out above: I can effectively communicate with a diverse range of people, so I have work friends who are on the grounds crew and work friends who have Ph.Ds. Part of the hostility is because I’m not from this region of the country. I am from a different rural, economically depressed region. The only major difference that I can see between where I am from and here is that where I am from has a very good primary and secondary public education system. Education is not valued here. It’s not like I got an education to embarrass other working class people. I got an education because I thought it would be cool to be Queen of the Lab, and generally it is.

      2. Mike C.*

        Having the label means you can identify the situation you’re in and the differences between those in your group and those in others.

    7. breadrolls*

      I definitely have some of this, though not as much as plenty of others. I grew up in a rural area surrounded by my mom’s immediate family. Her parents were farmers (neither ever got more than an eigth grade education), and she grew up working on the farm. Her first paying job while she was in school was milking cows. But mom plowed through school with amazing grades, went to college for free, even got her MA in a science field. But then she moved back home, and when her parents retired the farm they gifted the land to their kids, so my mom and all of her siblings built houses there. When my mom had kids she left her science job, and when my parents divorced she started working as a teacher making $25k at a private school.

      We (mom+sib+me) didn’t really struggle financially because my dad paid child support and mom rented the tiny apartment above our garage, but we were lower middle class, and steeped in a family culture of truck drivers and carpenters and admins in an area of dying industry. Mom would have Pépère come over to shoot the woodchucks that loved her garden too much. My aunt next door had horses and cows and chickens. Tractors bailed the hay from the fields every summer. And how things were for my family was really the norm. Almost everyone I went to school with knew getting out was basically the only way to do better than (or even as well as) our parents.

      I’m now working in an office in a major metro area, and I love being here, but I don’t always know how to connect to people who’ve never had anything like that. But similarly I’m disconnected from the parts of my family that have known nothing else. I struggle to understand how networking is somehow so normalized, and I don’t get brands, or food etiquette, or business attire conventions. But I also don’t know what it’s like to have your home foreclosed on, or be laid off and have to take a 30% pay cut to get any work, or to be prevented from going to the college you want because you’re denied a loan. I honestly don’t feel I have a right to complain about how my life has gone, but it is a little uncomfortable sometimes. It’s odd to be aware of both how much you have and how much you don’t depending on who you share a room with.

      1. Queen of the Lab*

        Very succinct description of how I feel a lot, although this thread has definitely made me more aware that I am more concerned with how other working class folks react to me, as opposed to my middle class colleagues. The middle class colleagues *mostly* think my venison hunting/ butchering is interesting and that my spouse’s chicken flock is adorable. I like them but I have no idea why they want to go on cruises or live in a subdivision.

    8. AnonAcademic*

      My husband is a straddler who grew up rural poor as a young child, and then lower middle class in the suburbs as an adolescent. We are now middle class (for our high COL area) or upper middle class (compared to national median household income). It has been an uncomfortable journey for him but he copes a bit by seeing himself as almost like a spy – someone sent in to infiltrate a group, learn and master their ways, etc. He also is trying to let go of survivor guilt when he sees his friends who didn’t get out of the economically depressed area he’s from and they are stuck in the same kinds of jobs as they had 10 years ago whereas he’s climbed several career rungs. A lot of them are very bitter and angry and he understands that, but realizes he needs some distance from all that anger especially when it translates into xenophobia a la “XYZ group is STEALING OUR JOBS” and that kind of thing.

    9. Ad Astra*

      I felt this way in school, too, because my parents were both very bright people who had started college degrees but never finished. They talked like white collar people, or really more like academics, but my dad worked a series of blue collar jobs, my mom was disabled, and we lived in blue collar neighborhoods (or sometimes government housing). So, all my blue collar classmates thought I talked funny. All of my white collar classmates thought I dressed funny and didn’t have any manners.

      Mostly I just fake it, and I’ve learned to live with the fact that I sometimes make white collar people feel uncomfortable. It’s not my fault that middle class people are so weird when it comes to talking about money.

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      We sort of did an open thread on this a long time ago (ending up in a white collar job when you grew up in a blue collar family) — let me know if y’all would like another one.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think it would be a good idea. When I was going up the working class WAS the middle class. They worked as opposed to living off trust funds. I guess now working class is lower middle class or poor? I’m ot clear on this point, as I read down through. And I am wondering about farmers and others who do physical labor. I knew someone who welds that made $50 per hour. I doubt I will ever see that. Right now, I am surrounded by farmers whose tractors cost MORE than my HOUSE and they have a few of these machines. Are class lines going by income or by the type of work?

    11. Lady Bug*

      I don’t get why I have to fit in with any group at all, based on my education or financial situation. I’m me. Like me, awesome. Hate me, awesome. I do a good job at work, that’s all that matters. If you don’t think I’m a good employee because I don’t fit it your box, I don’t want to work with you anyway.

      I grew up with some struggles, we had a house but were periodically on food stamps. Now I’m a middle class lawyer. I have friends that range all income levels and all types of jobs. None of that shit matters. What matters is you are good people that I have fun with and care about.

    12. Jessica (tc)*

      I’m a first-generation college graduate for both sides of my family, including extended family members. I am graduating with my master’s degree this month, and I’m feeling it more and more. One side of my family basically disowned me while I was obtaining the B.A. (because why the heck did I need to go and get all uppity for?) and now only my parents and one niece know that I’m getting a master’s degree (because “if you say you’re getting it, they’ll think you’re only telling them to rub it in their faces,” which is a direct quote from the parent whose side of the family I’m still in contact with). My husband’s family is upper-middle class, and I was blue-collar, working class all the way. I most recently worked with a customer-base of upper class people, which was amazingly different and unusual for me, and I luckily did not have to schmooze most of the time, or I would have been well out of my depth and comfort level for that.

      All that to say that I feel you very much, and I’m still working through my own discomfort as a straddler in limbo in both my personal and professional relationships. I know that I’ve not really reached for jobs that I was qualified for because of how my family might view it — plus imposter syndrome, because how could anyone from my background be qualified for a truly professional job? I’m struggling with that right now, because of my master’s degree: I need to go for jobs I’m qualified for, but I’m scared and worried that I won’t find one and that will prove my family members right about reaching above my “level.” :(

  20. Evie*

    Can someone direct me to the discussion on payroll companies? I tried looking through the old open threads but couldn’t find it.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Search function is a bit quirky sometimes…You’re right we just had that discussion about 2-3 weeks ago…I remember ADP, Paychex and a few other companies were mentioned…

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Another big one is Ceridian. The last 2 projects I’ve been involved with have had Ceridian as the payroll processor.

          1. Ann Furthermore*

            I didn’t deal with anyone there directly; we just had to write some interfaces to get employee information into our ERP system. But we were able to get everything we needed mapped to the correct place, and I don’t recall there being any huge issues.

  21. Random Lurker*

    Sorry for the long backstory on this one, but need help dodging office gossip when you are the target. I’m very much a mind your own business type, but since this involves me, I’m having a hard time avoiding the bullshit.

    Backstory: My boss has resigned. He was a very divisive figure. Some loved him, some hated him. I was able to see both the good and the bad, and am very mixed on him leaving. Because of his mixed perception around the office, I’ve been getting all sorts of gossip thrown my way about why he’s leaving, etc. I can easily ignore this because 1) I know the truth; and 2) even if I didn’t, I don’t care, because it doesn’t change the fact that he’s gone, and that impacts me greatly (both good and bad). Where the problem lies is that he isn’t going to be backfilled, and they haven’t decided what they are going to do with the role. This week, I’ve heard no fewer than a dozen rumors about what this means for me (promotion, demotion, having to report to a peer whom I do not like, breaking up my team, absorbing other teams, realignments, etc). It’s driving me insane, because I know that nobody who is spreading these rumors know anymore than me. It’s really crazy how many people are pretending that they are in “the know”, and trying to lord that over me. I haven’t decided if I am interested in the vacated position or not, but while I’m figuring that out, I feel like I have to listen to this crap so I don’t offend any potential allies if I decide to make a play for the role.

    What advice can anyone give me to shutting this behavior down, while not alienating anyone?

    1. lulu*

      Maybe you can casually mention something like this: “You know, I heard 5 different theories about what was going to happen in the last 2 days, so by now I take these things with a grain of salt.” If you don’t sound interested, but sound cheerful about it, they will stop sharing gossip with you.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        That’s probably the best advice to shut that down. Something that suggests you don’t know anything about what will happen and guessing won’t really help.

    2. LCL*

      The most professional way is to smile and change the subject. ‘Wow, it’s hot outside, etc’.
      The most entertaining and not totally unprofessional way is to tell anyone who talks to you about this is to tell them all of the theories you have heard, and name sources.

    3. Sami*

      What about phrases along the line of: “Hmm… That’s a possibility. I suppose we’ll all just have to wait and see.”
      “Sure, that might happen.”
      “I think it might be ___, but ___ could happen too.”

      Good luck!

    4. OhNo*

      If they seem to be doing it with the intention of lording their questionable knowledge over you (which I totally believe, because some people are weird like that), you can either puncture their self-importance or flatter them to get them to stop.

      The easiest way is to mention that you heard the same thing from someone else. If you’re looking to flatter, say it was someone higher up to imply that they are ‘in’ with someone in management. If you’re looking to deflate, make it someone at or below your level to imply that it is common knowledge and they were among the last to know.

      E.g.: “Oh, yes, Fergus mentioned that possibility to me earlier. Did you hear it from him, too?”

      1. TootsNYC*

        Oh, I wouldn’t do that–that just makes the gossip keep going. I like the “You know, I’ve heard so many people say so many things, and I don’t think any of us know that much, actually. Can we talk about something else? I’m getting gossip fatigue.”

        Flat-out say that you want to shut the topic down. Just be straightforward, but keep the tone friendly: “I’m hoping to not be in any of these conversations anymore; it’s not actually getting any of us anywhere, and I’m finding all the speculation sort of stressful.”

    5. Argh!*

      I use trite phrases like “It’s too soon to tell,” or “Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.” There’s something about pithy folk wisdom that cuts the gossips off at the knees. Or perhaps I remind them of their grandparents. Either way, it seems to work for me.

      Not knowing what will happen next at the higher levels is extremely stressful. I have been through it (and lost a job due to changes at the top) and I’m going through it now. I fully expect the new boss to make changes just to show the higher-ups that he’s proactive, smart, etc. whatever being a “change agent” means. Having been through it before, I just don’t want to talk about it at work. I was blind-sided at my last job and I would rather just focus on the present since there’s no way to predict these things anyway.

    6. Girasol*

      Ex-company used to hold rumor control meetings that started as boring uninformative manager announcements (“don’t believe what you hear, no decisions have actually been made…”) and wandered into the humorous. Specific rumors were aired and people tried to top one another with increasingly ridiculous ones. Surfacing the rumors for a good round of laughs was probably the best rumor control ever. Your mention of contradictory stories reminded me of that.

  22. Nobody*

    I am so frustrated with companies that make work boots. I need composite-toe shoes for work, and it is freaking impossible to find them in women’s sizes. I don’t even care if they are marked as “women’s” shoes, but I wear a 7.5 women’s, which I think is 5.5-6 in men’s sizes, and men’s shoes are rarely available in sizes smaller than 7 or 8. My company periodically brings in a safety shoe truck (a mobile shoe store specializing in safety shoes); I checked it out once, and they had ONE pair of shoes available in my size.

    I hate the work boots I wear now, but every time someone recommends a brand that is really comfortable, guess what? They don’t make composite-toe shoes in women’s sizes (or small men’s sizes). I’m looking at you, Keen and Timberland. It’s the 21st century! Women work in industrial jobs now! It’s not even necessary to make a special women’s model — just take the men’s shoes and make them available in slightly smaller sizes.

    1. Jubilance*

      I’m so unfamiliar with composite toe – are they less common than steel toes? Do the safety shoe trucks have more sizing available in steel toe options and could any of those work for you? Is it possible to find something on Amazon and then get reimbursed?

      1. Nobody*

        Yes, composite toes are less common than steel toes. I’m not sure why — I much prefer composite toes because they are lighter (steel toes make me feel like I’m wearing bricks on my feet), and I have to go through a metal detector to get into work. There is more of a selection available in steel toes, but it is still pretty limited in women’s sizes. Reimbursement isn’t even an issue; I just get an extra $150 in my paycheck for shoes once a year. I just have a lot of trouble finding anything anywhere that meets my needs, and I haven’t been satisfied with any of the shoes I’ve bought. I work mostly with men, and I’ve heard great things from them about Keen and Timberland shoes, so I’d really like to try them, but they don’t make composite-toe shoes in my size.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Yes! I really like shoes for crews and IIRC they have a bunch of kinds of work shoes, maybe they have the composite toe.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      That’s weird, because I live in a fairly small metropolitan area, and we have a store with a variety of safety boots in men’s and women’s sizes, including women’s boots with purple or pink highlights. But the store is back in a corner of a shopping area, so unless you knew about it, you wouldn’t realize it was there.

      1. Nobody*

        Well, part of the problem is that I am specifically looking for composite-toe shoes, which are harder to find than regular work boots (with no safety toe) or even steel-toe shoes. I also have a lot of foot pain from working on my feet a lot, so I am pretty picky about comfort. Keen and Timberland composite-toe shoes are pretty popular among the men at work, but I can’t get the same ones in my size.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Is it at all possible to retrofit composite toe covers in a pair of regular work boots? Would a cobbler /shoe repair place e able to help you answer that?

          2. TootsNYC*

            oh, maybe not:

            from the Gemplers site

            6. Are add-on protective devices sufficient?
            According to both ANSI and ASTM standards, protective toe caps must be an integral and permanent part of the footwear, so add-on devices do not meet those requirements. While those two standards exclude add-ons, however, it does not mean that such devices are not acceptable to OSHA. Those standards state that if the device has independent testing data to show that it provides protection equivalent to the ANSI requirements, the add-on protective devices are acceptable to OSHA.

            1. Nobody*

              Yeah, good idea, but company policy requires me to have shoes that comply with a specific ANSI standard.

      2. Student*

        The purple or pink thing is also, quite bluntly, terrible for work environments where women need these. The last thing I want to do when I’m the only woman surrounded by a bunch of guys is give them something easy to make fun of, tease about, or significantly gender-differentiate me by. I just want to do my job and be taken seriously, not try out for the my-little-pony fan club.

        1. Nobody*

          Haha, I’m glad I’m not the only one who is annoyed by the fact that shoe companies think women’s shoes need to be pink and purple. I’m a grown woman — I don’t need my work shoes to match a Disney princess outfit.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        It was nearly 40 years ago that I needed steel toed boots for a summer job and Red Wing was the only brand I could find in women’s 6. They were expensive! I still have them.

      2. Nobody*

        Thanks for the suggestion, but the boots I wear now are Red Wings and I can’t stand them. I’m really disappointed because I thought Red Wings were supposed to be comfortable, but they kill my feet. I had a pair of Worx (Red Wing’s budget brand) that were ok, except they started falling apart in less than a year, and I figured Red Wings would be better, but no. Red Wing doesn’t allow retailers to sell them online, so I had to special order them from a local store (because of course they don’t keep the women’s styles in stock) and wait 6 weeks for them to come in.

        1. Clever Name*

          That’s frustrating. I wear a women’s 7.5 and I adore my red wing safety toe shoes. We have stores here and I walked in and said what I’d be doing, the guy measured my feet, told me I have high arches and a high instep and fitted me with the boots that are going strong 7 years later. And insoles. I love my red wing insoles they’re speedy, but I don’t get foot, knee or back pain when I wear them.

    5. LCL*

      Five seconds of googling showed me several sources for women’s timberland work boots. Look for the Pro line. Some had composite toes. You have to be willing to mail order, and even order from Zappo’s/Amazon.
      The one pair of women’s Timberlands I ordered ran small, which was kinda disappointing because I paid a lot extra to get them customized. They are still sitting in my locker, I haven’t the heart to thrift store ’em yet.
      If you decide to go with men’s boots, start by sizing down 1 whole size.
      I wear a women’s 11, generally I buy men’s 10 work boots.

      1. Nobody*

        Really? Can you tell me the model name for the women’s Timberland composite-toe shoes? I checked the Timberland web site, and they do not list any women’s shoes with composite toes. They have 28 models of men’s shoes with composite toes, but the smallest size available is men’s 7.

        2. fposte*

          I just found one composite-toe shoe for women on Amazon (Original S.W.A.T.) and several men’s composite-toe shoes that have size 5.5. The brands were mainly Original S.W.A.T., Maelstrom, Reebok, Bass, and Timberland. Zappo’s has women’s composite toe shoes from Ariat, Carhartt, Caterpillar, and Reebok; they have men’s Timberlands that go down to 5.5.

          Basically, you gotta let go of brick and mortar.

    6. Jules the First*

      Check out Ariat’s stuff. (Google for safety or work boots specifically, or you’ll get their equestrian line which isn’t always suitable, depending on why you need workboots).

      Not only do they do most of their styles in steel or composite toes in ladies sizes, they do half sizes! They also do a line of safety clogs and shoes which are an attractive and comfortable alternative if you need to be both smart and steel-toed.

      They’re the only brand I buy (I wear a 5.5 – if I have to borrow site boots inexpectedly, I wear three pairs of ski socks and shuffle around, so I feel your pain!)

      1. Nobody*

        Thanks for the suggestion! I’m not familiar with Ariat but I will definitely consider them. I don’t want tall boots, but it looks like they have some 5″ and 6″ styles that would work.

      2. justsomeone*

        I love Ariat! I have a super comfy pair of “cowboy” boots that I wear around. They were comfy right out of the box.

    7. Mockingjay*

      Ariat and other equestrian boot makes have all kinds of women’s work boots, with composite and steel toes. I bought a pair of composite for my last job.

      Locally, try Tractor Supply. That’s where I got mine. Online, equestrian catalogs. I recommend Dover or Schneider’s. Links follow:
      http://www.doversaddlery.com/

      http://www.sstack.com/

    8. First time for everything*

      Check farming gear for children’s sizes. My friend had the same issue and she is a women’s size six.

    9. Anon Moose*

      I also highly recommend looking into different insoles if your shoes are killing your feet. I used superfeet insoles in work boots I had (I think they were timberland titanium toe? They were much lighter than steel toe) and it made a world of difference.

    10. Student*

      These are the best I’ve found: http://www.carolinashoe.com. Took me a while to dig them up when I had the same problem. My feet are smaller than yours, and I found some that fit pretty well – I use the waterproof 4×4 hiker’s carbon composite toes (woman’s size 6 for me). I love these ones though, they fit me well and I don’t have problems with them getting sweaty or hurting my feet anywhere after a day on the move.

      It was so infuriating that I could find toddler’s sized safety toe shoes in the brick and mortar stores more easily than I could find safety toe shoes that would fit an adult woman! Took a dozen web sites before I dug up this one. I was so relieved when they fit.

      1. Nobody*

        Oh, nice — they even have an Oxford style. I think I found my next pair of shoes. Thanks!

    11. Short geologist*

      Depends on what your feet are like. I hate red wings too, and I need a wide toe box. I only wear doc martins – they do have composites, but I admit that I wear steel toes. I end up hiking mountains, snowshoeing, and standing on concrete for days on end and they work well.

      1. Lindsay J*

        This. I have a pair of Doc Martins work boots (steel toe) and they are amazing. And I wear women’s 6.5 and they have a size to fit me.

    12. Mander*

      In a way I’m fortunate to be a bigger woman because I can wear men’s sizes, but man, I hear this complaint all the time. I am seriously thinking about starting a company that sells safety gear in smaller women’s sizes, because so.dang.many of my colleagues find it ridiculously difficult if not impossible to find work stuff that fits them properly. Some of them aren’t even particularly small! It baffles me that retailers haven’t grabbed the opportunity to make such things more widely available.

      1. Clever Name*

        I had to special order a pair of work coveralls when I did groundwater sampling. Don’t even get me started on how ridiculous I look in the men’s medium high visibility vest

        1. Clever Name*

          Or hip waders. There are a thousand options for men’s waders, but to find some In women’s sizes, you’re down to 3 options.

  23. Wrench Turner*

    Welcome to another 584,000,000 miles around our parent star! You’ve come a long way!

  24. Christian Troy*

    I posted last week about people talking about my age during the interview process. I just wanted to update that somehow things got significantly weirder and worse during the second interview so I doubt I’ll ever hear anything again. Basically, they flat out asked me how old I was and if there was anything about my personal life I wanted to tell them. When I didn’t answer the question, they circled back to the line of questioning by saying things like, “I like spending time with my kids and living in the suburbs. Do you have similar activities? If you were to move here, would you get an apartment by yourself or maybe a house in the suburbs?”. It was so transparent it wasn’t even funny.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Uh, nope.

      At that point, I would have written them off and been tempted to give them an answer like, “Well, on my last birthday–I’ve really forgotten when that was–I think I was 585 years old. I like late nights, but I never drink….wine.”

    6. designbot*

      I probably would have said “I’m old enough to know that you’re not legally allowed to consider that in the hiring process, if that’s what you’re asking.”

    7. Snazzy Hat*

      “I like spending time with my kids and living in the suburbs. Do you have similar activities? If you were to move here, would you get an apartment by yourself or maybe a house in the suburbs?”.

      Two things in this quote make me laugh: Parsing the first sentence as “I like spending time with my kids and I like spending time living in the suburbs,” as though “living in the suburbs” is an activity s/he does for fun, and the thought that “I would get an apartment in the suburbs” would be a great confusing response. Kudos for showing them you saw through the questions.

    8. Girasol*

      It probably doesn’t help to know you’re not alone, does it? I got a flat out “Why aren’t you retired??” in an interview when I was 50. I told them I had fifteen more years in my career at least. It worked and I was hired but it is an ageist workplace. If I make a point of making myself heard some people respond as though a houseplant weighed in on a business decision and they’re alarmed that someone might think its input more credible than theirs. Some very strange comments only make sense if I imagine the speaker thinking, “If an aging woman can do this job, my whole self worth is threatened!” One deals with it but the daily grind is like being nibbled to death by mosquitoes. So you might be quite right if you just said “Sour grapes, I didn’t want to work there anyway.”

  25. Anon for Open Thread*

    Question for the group:

    If you have an alternative lifestyle, do you come out to your employer/coworkers about it? A little about my situation: I’m polyamorous and in two committed relationships, but only really talk about one at work…but the one I don’t talk about actually has social connections that overlap with people in my office, so I’m concerned about being accidentally outed.

    So, 1) Are you out about it at work? How has that worked for you (or not)?
    2) Were you outed intentionally or accidentally?
    3) Has there been any fallout? How did you handle it if there was?
    4) What signs do you look for in a potential employer to see if their culture would be accepting of your lifestyle/the way you are?

    This doesn’t just need to be a question for polyamorous people – I feel like this question applies to people on the LGBTQ spectrum or with non-traditional lifestyles. I realize this is also dependent on company culture.

    1. Ihmmy*

      I’m also poly and I talk pretty openly about my partners. I don’t shove it in peoples faces but I’ll sometimes say things like “my out of town partner”, “my local partner”, “I just started seeing X…”. I mentioned a little while ago that I was seeing a few people and the responses I got were mostly “oh keep your options open good idea!” which isn’t quite what this is, but I’m not really worried about explaining my relationship structures at this point to them either.

      basically, I don’t hide it, I don’t shove it in their face, I’m happy to answer questions but I don’t feel the need to polysplain at them either. It’s worked well so far, no one’s been weird about it.

      1. Anon for Open Thread*

        I think that sounds like a decent situation. I’ve struggled with people asking how I’m doing and what exciting thing I did this past weekend, and I really just want to talk about the really cool thing I did with the SO I’m not out about, and I just have to talk about a cool thing I did with a “friend”. It sucks not being able to share my life when people are all, “Oh yeah, my husband/kid/boyfriend and I did x, y, and z.”

        It’s actually kind of hurting my standing here because my boss notices that I’m not very social with the office, but I haven’t really told him it’s because I don’t want to out myself about having two committed relationships.

        1. Ihmmy*

          oh I just realized I totally ignored the rest of the queries there.

          When I started here I read up on a bunch of their stuff, including things like Values. In my interview they asked me a bit about their values/mission etc and I mentioned that their Value of “unconditional positive regard” was something I really liked. That was a good sign to me about being able to not have to hide too much. Plus it’s a union job, so security is pretty good as long as you don’t screw up horribly. And it’s a fairly liberal city I’m in, being a college town we have lots of young people running about.

          I also decided about a year ago that I wasn’t going to hide my poly side. There are things relating to my sex life that others don’t need to know, but my relationships matter to me and I don’t want to leave them unacknowledged. I’d been through a big breakup around then, decided to sidle into solo poly instead of a hierarchy structure, and just didn’t feel like tiptoeing around it.

      2. Marvel*

        I’m also polyamorous (not… really as a distinct lifestyle choice; it’s just kinda happened at a couple of different times in my life). I struggle with this all the time–I have a partner who I’ve been with for 6.5 years, who I talk about all the time, and then we both have a new-ish boyfriend we’ve been with for the past few months. I refer to them as “my partner” and “my boyfriend,” but I think people generally assume I’m talking about the same person, since they’re both male, which bugs me a little. I might steal the “local partner” and “long-distance partner” wording.

    2. Dawn*

      I have a good friend and former co-worker who was poly and very open about it in his life. He would just talk about his life with his wife and his girlfriend like it was the most normal thing in the world, and his attitude about it is what set the tone for everyone else in the office. I’m sure there might have been some behind the scenes pearl clutching from a couple of people but for the most part, once people had the initial “Wait did you say your girlfriend? I thought you were married?” conversation things were fine.

    3. also anon for this*

      It’s no one’s business if I’m dating a man or a woman. I don’t really talk about my love life at work and I luckily work at a company where I don’t know about most people’s love life/marital status/family. I like keeping my private life private.

      I was outed intentionally at my last company by a gay man who was horribly biphobic and misogynistic, so that was fun. HR was really uncomfortable dealing with my complaints because apparently they didn’t realize the LGBTQA+ community has their own in-fighting and isn’t one happy rainbow parade of sunshine and love.

      But my last company had a lot of LGBTQA+ allies who were “allies” in the traditional mainstream sense – quoting Dan Savage as if he’s the only person who gives LGBTQA+ “advice”, wanting a gay friend to gossip with about boys and go shopping, thinking gay marriage was the only concern for the gay community, not realizing that queer meant more than cis white middle class gay men – so it was one of those places that looked like it was accepting, but was kind of….not? Sometimes I find allies unintentionally do more harm than good and companies may have a genuine wish to be inclusive, but if there aren’t any LGBTQA+ individuals on their diversity board, they don’t always understand how to be inclusive without being insulting.

      Honestly, when I look at new employers, I make sure they’re not a company that’s spoken out against LGBTQA+ rights. It’s nice if I know they’ve supported women or the the LGBTQA+ community in some way, but as long as people won’t bother me about my business and I’m free to do my work and go home, I’m cool. I’m over the “so how did you know you were bi?/how many men or women have you dated” questions and I’m really, really over being someone’s token bi coworker.

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        I’ve so often had the experience that clueless allies drown out the voices of the people they want to help…

        1. RVA Cat*

          Kind of like guys mansplaining feminism? Even worse when it’s obvious they’re trolling for dates….

        2. also anon for this*

          Definitely. I’ve found a lot of allies like making themselves feel good for supporting a cause and latch onto the mainstream idea behind the cause without really listening to the people who are affected by the issue.

        3. Lily Evans*

          I had a facebook friend who is one of those allies. On the day that marriage equality was legalized in the US, she made a really angry post about how other “allies” were posting about that, but not twelve other lesser known LGBT+ issues. It made me angry because how dare she call herself an ally and in the same post assume that everyone she’s fb friends with is straight unless they’ve specifically told her otherwise.

      2. NarrowDoorways*

        I basically never address orientation. If someone asks me what I’m doing for the evening and I mention a date, I don’t hide pronouns but don’t explain. I have yet to have someone ask about why I sometimes say he and sometimes she.

        I stay casual and matter-of-fact and I think everyone else follows my lead.

        1. Anon for Open Thread*

          I really like this approach, and if I end up coming out at work I think this is what I would use. With friends I very casually say, “Oh yeah, my other significant other, [name], did x, y, and z this weekend, so that’s cool.” Most of the time I get a double take and a question about it, but I feel like at work there would likely be less inquiry.

      3. Mander*

        That must be very irksome, and I have to admit that there’s a whole spectrum of LGBTQA+ that I haven’t thought about much. But while I don’t think I’ve ever called myself an “ally”, I’ve always been very accepting of other peoples’ sexuality and gender identities. Unless I am in a relationship with you, your preferences are none of my concern (and vice versa). If you consider yourself a particular gender, then from my perspective that’s what you are. I don’t make a big deal out of being an advocate or an ally or whatever (because that’s more about me than it is about the people who are being discriminated against) but I do speak up in appropriate situations.

    4. 3D Queen*

      I think there’s a pretty big difference between coming out as LGBT* at work (not a lifestyle) and telling folks you’re polyamorous (much more arguably a lifestyle, a very small section of the poly community considers it hardwired into their identity, but most don’t). As someone who’s both queer and poly, I’ve never shielded my personal life from conversation at work when it comes up — but to be honest I’ve also always lived in large liberal cities and worked in industries where being unusual is the norm (restaurant and creative). It was probably actually easier for me because I have a very alternative look (think large tattoos, etc) so when I mention it, people are just like “duh” and even usually follow it up with a “wow I wish I could do that but I get too jealous” (worst case is people will ask questions because they don’t quite get it, but I’m never offended because I put my life out there in part so people will see how normal and boring “alternative lifestyles” can be). I’ve been super lucky to never once have received any pushback, but I have purposefully looked for LGBT* friendliness in every position I’ve considered before I took the gig. As a bonus, if a company is super LGBT* friendly, they probably won’t give a fig about your two partners (totally a generalization, but I’ve found it to be pretty true). Good luck!

      1. Anon for Open Thread*

        My company is international, so we have adopted some of the more European (EU/UK area) type values into our handbook even though we’re in the US – think legal protections for people based on gender identity, etc – but the company still has a very heteronormative culture.

    5. Cambridge Comma*

      I’m not straight (but not poly). I work in a very conservative organization (but not in North America, so it’s a different flavour of conservative).
      I am out to everyone, all the time, from the first relevant conversation. I have a poster about tolerance on my door etc. The earlier the easier, I find. Slip it into the conversation and move on to something else. Treat it like the small deal it should be and others will follow.
      (Having said that, we have a kind of universal basic income in the country I live in, so I can risk losing my job.)

    6. Anon for this*

      I was poly for some time, and was not out about it at work. This led to a couple of problems:

      -Once in a while, a co-worker would see me out with someone else, or my then-primary out with someone else, and try to nose out whether we were cheating, which could get awkward.

      -I had a horrific breakup with a secondary at one point. Just wrecked me. I was in a miserable mood for several months, distracted at work, really just wished I could briefly confide in someone there, and never did, so it all stayed bottled up, and I’m sure they must have wondered what was wrong with me. If I’d broken up with my primary, the one they knew I was dating, I could have just said “Ugh, Wakeen and I broke up,” and they’d all have been sympathetic and probably cut me a little extra slack for a bit.

      So, it was kind of a problem to be closeted, but with at least one of the jobs I had during that time, it probably would have been worse to come out as poly. I was already a Bad Culture Fit and it wouldn’t have helped. The other place I worked during that time, I probably could and should have told; they probably would have been fine. I think one of them even kind of worked it out, since he ran into me at the gay bar with a girlfriend, but I never confirmed it.

      1. Anon for Open Thread*

        I’ve been in a similar breakup scenario myself while not being out at work, and I can agree – it really sucks. I would have loved to just say, “Sorry I’m in a bad mood – I just dealt with some relationship problems, I need a little while and I’ll be back on point.”

    7. Allison Mary*

      I agree pretty wholeheartedly with Ihmmy’s approach and Dawn’s coworker’s approach.

      In response to your questions:
      1) Well, I’m waiting for my new job to start in October. Once it starts, and as soon as there’s an opportunity to come out “organically” (i.e., the exact same way hetero monogamous people come out at work), I will take the earliest opportunity possible to come out about being poly. In my last full-time position, I made a point of bringing it up to co-workers I was very friendly with, when I was fluttering with NRE about someone new, or when I was excited about a poly event. I talked about it like it was completely normal, and as if I would expect others to react like it was completely normal. I do think that this helped set the tone.

      2) Intentionally. See above.

      3) In the last full-time position, no. One of my more conservative co-workers clearly thought it was “very weird”and she didn’t understand how I could do it. But that was about it. There tended to be more opportunities for me to talk about it organically with co-workers – I don’t think it ever came up with anyone in any kind of a management or supervisory role. I think my conversations with management tended to be more “all-business” where my conversations with co-workers on the same level as me tended to cover more topics about our personal lives.

      4) I would consider my geographical location to be a huge part of it. I might be a little more hesitant to be so open about being poly if I was in a very conservative area of the South. Personally, I live and work in a fairly liberal city in the Pacific Northwest (in fact, within the past year, we outranked San Francisco as the “kinkiest” city in the US), so the odds of my employer being unfazed by polyamory or other untraditional relationship structures, are petty high – even though the industry I’m heading into is known for being very conservative (accounting).

      I agree with Dan Savage that within the minds of the average American, being poly today is probably where being gay/lesbian was, about 30 years ago. But the way that we change that is by coming out, whenever and wherever possible.

      1. Anon for Open Thread*

        Thanks for such a thorough response! I really appreciated reading it and hearing what has worked and what your plans are moving forward.

        I’m in a relatively liberal city, but there’s a solid undercurrent of conservative values that our community battles with on a regular basis.

        1. Allison Mary*

          I think that the undercurrent of conservative values is around in most places – that’s why they’re social norms. If you’re reasonably confident that your co-workers won’t be jerks about it, I’d encourage you to come out about it just like a hetero monogamous person would: matter-of-factly, and in casual conversation, like it’s not even a thing.

          For example:
          You: “Sounds like you had fun this weekend! I got a little activity in, too – my husband and my boyfriend and I all went on this great hike together on Sunday. The trails were a little wet/muddy, but it was so great to get out into the woods again.”
          Colleague: “Wait, what?”
          You: “Oh yeah, my husband and I are non-monogamous. We hang out frequently with his other girlfriend and my other boyfriend. So, about that project for Fergus we started working on, did he say he needed it by Wednesday?”

    8. Just A Girl*

      Queer and poly here, in a permanent relationship with two cis opposite-sex partners. We have a kid, and I’m legal-married to one of then.

      I talk about them like they’re family, when family comes up. Because my company is a little bit conservative, I watch my language. People who know what poly is pick up on it; people who don’t get it seem to think my partner is some kind of child-care provider, and I don’t correct them because I don’t talk about my sex life at work. I list both partners as equal beneficiaries and emergency contacts.

      I’ve only ever experienced biphobia, and that from a gay straight alliance in college. Feeling pretty lucky in that regard. We’ve even nearly convinced hold-out grandparent #6, who was worried for his child, that this is good, permanent stuff.

      The queer thing never comes up because I’m not in any relationships that are visibly queer. No one asks, and I don’t volunteer the information.

      Passing privilege is half blessing and half curse.

    9. Jennifer*

      I think this one depends entirely on culture and location of where you live. If you’re in an urban hippie enclave where everyone else is also an urban hippie (especially if anyone else is super obviously alternative), you can get away with it. If you’re anything else, I’d probably recommend to keep your mouth shut unless you get any indicators it may be safe to be out.

    10. AnonAcademic*

      I live near San Francisco and either there are more people in poly relationships here, people are way more open about it, or both. I’ve seen it handled both well and poorly. One friend, who I knew as having only Partner A, said something casually like “Oh by the way I should mention, Partner A and I also have a Partner B who we live with” and then carried on telling their story (which involved B so the explanation was topical). Another time during my first introduction to someone they introduced the fact that they have multiple partners by saying something like “Partner A would LOVE to be here tonight but had to work, so this is Partner B who came with me instead.” It wasn’t really necessary to explain her relationship structure at that point, and there was a tone of dismissiveness and entitledness about it – a bit of “oh my preferred boyfriend was busy so I brought the back up boyfriend, good thing I’m so desirable.” It made me feel bad and uncomfortable for Partner B who was acting like a fish out of water.

    11. MM*

      I would check out your company’s hr policies- some of them may have some sort of “morality” clause that would allow them to fire someone for bs reasons. I’d also talk to your partners about this if you aren’t already, so that they know where you are open about being poly and where you are not. Also ask around in the poly community where you are for places that they have found accepting of their relationships. Good luck

  27. Carmen Sandiego*

    I suffer from seasonal allergies, and very occasionally, they’re so bad (even with medication) that I feel drained and exhausted by midday. On days like this when I absolutely need to be at work and a sick day isn’t feasible, I have sometimes shut my office door, rested my head on my desk for 10 minutes and then resumed plugging along, which helps a little. I always set an alarm on my phone in case I doze off. Is this unprofessional? I don’t know how else to cope with it.

    1. TCO*

      I think it’s totally fine, though that could depend a bit on your office culture. Most likely no one is noticing, and if they are, how is a 10-minute nap break any different from a 10-minute break to smoke, call your kids, make a coffee run, or do any of the other things we rely on to survive the workday?

    2. Guinness*

      I would follow similar advice that Alison gave for the person that wanted to have their boyfriend stay in her hotel on a work trip…. you can’t do it until you establish yourself as reliable and a quality worker.

    3. Laura*

      Depends on what your workplace environment is like. Can you guarantee privacy for those 10 minutes? I don’t think it’s professional to be SEEN to sleep at work, but as a fellow allergy-sufferer, I 100% relate to and support you here!

    4. KR*

      My boss is asleep in his chair right now, so at least in my office it wouldn’t be unprofessional.

  28. anon for this*

    Help me brainstorm for a career transition!

    I’m five years into my career as a mid-level health care professional (not nursing, but OT/PT/SLP) and am quickly burning out. It’s a challenging time, as insurance companies are limiting visits and patients are dealing with high co-pays. I am tired of our leadership team pressing for more patient visits and more billable units. I feel undervalued given my education, motivation, and additional projects I’ve completed (coordinating continuing education programs, for example). If I continue in this role, the next step would likely be managing a clinic, which I am not confident I would enjoy (I’m not sure I would make a great manager). Additionally, the opportunities for promotion are few and far between.

    I do enjoy problem-solving and working with people. I enjoy math and editing and I’m a strong writer. I’m proficient at our electronic medical record (Epic).

    It is important to me to find a career with potential for growth through skill development and promotions. Job availability is a major consideration because I’m unable to relocate at this time (I live in a mid-sized Midwestern city). Starting salary would hopefully be at least $60k due to my remaining student loans. Some flexibility (being able to flex hours or work from home) is less important, but would be a bonus.

    Any thoughts or ideas? Anyone working in a place where I might be a good fit? What does your average day look like? What skills should I work on developing? Thanks all :)

    1. Revolver Rani*

      “I enjoy math and editing and I’m a strong writer.” You might look into technical writing. I made a career change into technical writing about seven years ago and it’s been so much fun. Technical writing jobs might also be advertised as “content developer” or “technical communications” or phrases like that. As for career development, there’s obviously a lot of variation in the industry, but at my company there have been opportunities to move into both management roles and content design sort of roles – one of the things I do is develop standards and guidelines for different kinds of content that we write.

      I’m trying to write around things that might out myself, but – I’ll be happy to tell you more of what I know about tech writing and answer questions about it. And maybe there are other tech writers reading AAM who want to chime in.

        1. Jen RO*

          Actually there are a few more technical writers around here! I’m late to the show, obviously, and I can’t advise on the US market (it’s a completely new field here in Romania so it was very easy to get my first job)… but it’s super fun and I love it.

      2. designbot*

        Could you leverage your experience into working for a company that develops or maintains EMRs?

    2. Kate*

      Public health! It’s such a broad field, I’m sure there are jobs relevant to your clinical work. Having an MPH is helpful but not always necessary, especially if you have a clinical degree. You could look at state and local departments of health as well as nonprofits and academia. The day to day work depends on the position, but in my experience there is a lot of critical thinking to try to solve problems, writing, and working with people.

    3. NASA*

      I second exploring an MPH or public health careers. Maybe an emphasis in epidemiology or a degree in health informatics (lots of growth potential!). Check out HIMSS dot org.

      I have an MPH and have moved my way over to health informatics and I love both! I do a lot (and I mean A LOT) of problem solving in my current role and work with all the EMRs. I still get to work with lots of people but have the option of hiding behind email only. I have flexible hours and can easily work from home. My office is wherever I take my laptop. And I only have to know a minimal amount of coding, which was taught on the job.

      If you like Epic, you could also look into being an implementation specialist or trainer. Lots of travel might be required though.

    4. Windchime*

      Have you considered becoming an Epic analyst? You may already know this, but they are the people who configure and maintain the system. They don’t do a lot of writing, but I would imagine there is some documentation that goes on. I have worked on an Epic team in the past as a Claims analyst and it was technical, challenging, and fun work. I now work in a different place but they still have Epic and some of the analysts include a pharmacist and several RNs. It’s really important for Epic build teams to have professionals who have worked in the trenches because they bring a totally different perspective.

      When I was a claims analyst, I worked in the middle of nowhere and was making 70-80k and that was five years ago, so I think that you should easily be able to make your desired salary.

  29. Anon for this one*

    So excited! I’m enrolled in a graduate degree program in my field which requires a practical experience be completed at some point. I was getting really desperate because I’ve been applying for narrow appropriate postings for the past several months, but with AAM’s help I’ve just landed an internship that lines up perfectly with my summer semester. IT’S PAID!! I was starting to think I’d have to sink tons of money into commuting for an unpaid internship if I didn’t find something in the next few months.

    My boss at my current job is being super flexible because they want to keep me on after I’m done with the internship, so I’m working out with her how to go part-time here for the 3 months I’m doing it. Working 2 jobs will be hard on top of the other class I’ll be taking, but I always knew I’d have to do this or something similar at some point during the degree.

    I’ll have to email Alison my cover letter, because I have really been working hard to incorporate the strategies from her How to Get a Job ebook in my letters- it totally helped and I really recommend it to other struggling and downtrodden jobseekers. THANKS GUYS :D and Happy Birthday Alison!

    1. Temperance*

      Please do – I love seeing successful cover letters because I suck SO HARD at writing them. Congrats!

  30. Lillian McGee*

    How long into one’s career can one reasonably expect to get a director title? And what other kinds of credentials does a director typically have? Must a director manage and supervise people or can there be a director of a one-person department (or program)?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Speaking as someone who was a director for a short time in my mid-30s, you can definitely have a director title and have no one who reports to you, particularly if you’re in a smaller organization.

      1. K.*

        Yep – I interviewed for a position with a director title and no direct reports. Director really meant “the only person who does this thing.”

    2. SL #2*

      We’re a small org, and our director is in her early 30s and has 1 direct report, but she’s also been with us for 6 years.

    4. EmilyG*

      This seems like it could be very field-specific. I have a friend who’s my age but in a different field and I think has some kind of title like Senior Executive Director, and no direct reports. She had a director title fresh out of a master’s program. I’ve only just gotten a director title 8 years after a master’s, with about ten direct reports. I previously worked at an institution that I found annoyingly out of step with our profession. My title was “manager” but I thought the job was more analogous to “assistant director.” It was that way because their top person had a different title than most institutions like ours, so they were a little creative with titles all down the line.

    5. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I’m 33 and I report to a director who has one other direct report. The person in my position before me was promoted to director and doesn’t have anyone reporting to her. I think she’s about my age. I’ve only been in my position a few months but my plan is to work in this role for a year or so and then start applying for director-level roles. I’m at a Fortune 500, but this is my first corporate job, so I don’t have a lot to compare it to. All of my other positions were at smaller companies or public service. Most directors here have several years of experience and at least a masters degree. (I have a Ph.D., but in an indirectly related field)

  31. Audiophile*

    So glad it’s Friday. It’s been a short and long, for some reason. I had Monday off because of last Friday’s event and then packed a lot into my weekend ( a hike for suicide prevention with friends, Mother’s Day brunch – which left me with a mild bout of food poisoning).

    Then the rest of the week was spent on the post event thank you email. Now it’s onto planning the next event in July.

    Any advice on how to keep an open mind when your work is “revised” without you being looped in? This just happened to me. Clearly there was a conversation I wasn’t a part of and was only included after the fact because I’m the one distributing the work. I don’t mind minor or major edits, but it’s the afterthought of “Oh we should tell her, because we need her to post it.”

      1. Audiophile*

        The design was changed significantly, but my writing was kept. My issue was not being looped, just being told “to wait” and then being presented with a new design and told to distribute it. The previous version was already approved, so it struck me as odd to see such a drastic change.

    2. designbot*

      Could you ask about it from the direction of genuinely wanting to learn what your supervisor was looking for that they didn’t feel you provided? I’ve done this with the work of junior designers before semi-regularly, and it’s usually been an issue of some factor that it would take significantly more time to convey to them than to just handle myself, or they flat out misunderstood something about the situation we were designing for and I didn’t have time to send it back to them for a redo. The latter can be their fault, my fault, doesn’t matter, it’s just how things go sometimes, but the former is something that I would have appreciated them taking the time to follow up on when we’re not on a deadline so that they could do better in the future.

  32. annoyed*

    One of my coworkers like to print out colorful “motivational” posters each day to hang on the outside of her cube. They’re things like “if you’re sad, go talk a walk until you feel happy” or “life is too short to be worried about anything”. So, you know, the condescending types of motivational posters.

    Sometimes she posts personal views, things like Christian phrases or causes she supports. Today’s is a poster about how everyone should always adopt pets instead of buy them. While I think adopting pets is great, she villainizes anyone who buys from a breeder, which I don’t think is that awful (puppy mills are awful, but a good breeder isn’t) considering how intense some rescues and shelters are with prospective owners.

    But worst of all, she’s said multiple times that she’s very much against people adopting children because you don’t know what could be wrong with them/they’re not really you’re kids because you’re not biologically linked/giving birth is the most magical and precious thing in this world/etc. I know pet adoption and child adoption are two very, very different things, but it enrages and upsets me because it seems so hypocritical….and I could only ever adopt kids so it feels like a slap in the face.

    1. Kat M2*

      Oh dear………that would be very annoying. Especially because it seems more like she’s trying to proselytize to the office (if they were just for her, she could put on the inside of her cube). And why would she need to bring her politics or religious views into the workplace?

      Management should step in on at least a couple of these things. Religious quotes displayed for everyone could become a problem and her views on child adoption have no place in the workplace, not to mention she’s being horribly insensitive (jedi hugs if wanted!).

    2. Anna*

      I don’t know if you ‘d like to speak up and tell her she’s being incredibly insensitive about adopting children (two of my cousins are adopted and they started out in rough situations and I could go on and on about it, so…screw her), but she’s an ass about both things and should probably keep her opinions to herself.

    3. Anon for personal family info*

      (On my soapbox) Her opinions about adoption are incredibly misinformed! Perhaps she would prefer that these adopted children had been killed in utero. My husband has two adopted daughters (he and his late wife could not have children), and there is also an adopted niece and nephew in the family. The niece is a world-renown cardio-thoracic surgeon who has donated thousands of hours to an international organization performing heart operations in impoverished regions around the world. My sister gave birth to a daughter while a teenager and gave the child up for adoption. The daughter was raised by a loving family and now has two children of her own. It takes a very special person to open their heart and life to a complete stranger, especially when that stranger is a child, and I greatly admire those who do it. As for the child having health or other problems; you don’t get a guarantee that biological children won’t have problems, either. Your coworker has no idea what they are talking about! (Off soapbox)

      Moving to a business perspective, these posters can be inappropriate in a business setting. I had to remove some politically charged posters from an area of our building where they could have been seen by clients. These had been put up in defiance of our bulletin board policy, which is clearly stated in the employee handbook. Companies need to be careful that things that are posted are inclusive and not offensive to both employees and customers.

        1. fposte*

          Yup. I’m an adoptee and I’m pro-choice. And people who adopt kids vary from assholes to wonderful, just like the rest of the world.

        2. Observer*

          In most contexts, I would agree with you. But, it sure makes sense when you are dealing with someone who is being superior about her religious beliefs.

          But maybe “Perhaps she would prefer that these children get dumped in the landfill” would work better.

    4. LCL*

      Sounds like because she is so annoying you have reached BEC stage with her. I would, too. The first paragraph of posters you describe aren’t condescending.

      1. anonanonanon*

        I don’t know, I find those advice posters condescending. It’s like telling someone who’s depressed that reading a book will make them better or telling someone who’s sad to smile. Condescending might not be the right word, but they can be annoying.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I would not be inspired by those types of sayings. It’s like telling a person who is down to SMILE. It’s simplistic thinking that totally ignores the complexities of life.

    5. 3D Queen*

      Woah. I actually agree with her that there’s no ethical way to buy a dog (it’s very contentious issue, no need to debate it out here), but I wouldn’t post something about that at work! It’s not appropriate and also not a good way to reach out to people or change any minds. And then to have such cognitive dissonance ringing around your brain that you can’t extend the same philosophy to actual humans…wow.

      1. anon for this*

        I don’t think people are unethical when they buy a dog. Sometimes they resort to buying a dog because shelters or rescues deny them, sometimes for very stupid reasons. OP says their coworker villainizes people who buy dogs, and I don’t think it’s okay to say they’re unethical or bad people, regardless of whether or not you (general you used here) agree with the practice.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      As a Christian, that’s especially bad, since part of our theology is that we’re adopted into God’s family, and he does know what’s wrong with us.

      There is a lot of adoption in our family, and I can’t imagine what it would be like without my little sister. Love is big enough to make someone family, and it’s sad when someone’s love is so constrained.

      If you do end up adopting kids, it’s not just because it’s all you can do, it’s because you have enough love to make them family. And if you don’t adopt kids, you probably have friends or even a pet that gets that love. Family is who we choose, and should never be limited by biology.

    7. Guinness*

      I might be a little too passive aggressive for my own good, but I would probably put up some motivational poster about not judging other people’s life choices.

      1. Florida*

        A religious one would make it even better! How about “Let he who is without sin be the first to cast a stone.”

    8. Laura*

      At first, I thought your coworker was just being silly, but it’s genuinely offensive to MANY people to imply that adoption is bad. I would talk to your boss about this– maybe he/she can communicate to Jane that she needs to keep her personal beliefs to herself.

      1. Grumpy*

        Agreed, I was going to suggest “Go eat your crackers… ” or similar. But this woman sounds legitimately offensive and possibly hopeless.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      Someone needs to tell her to knock it off.

      At Nonprofit Job, we were passing someone’s baby around and talking about kids and the topic turned to dealing with a child’s first day of school. I didn’t have any kids, but the most recent ex did (a child I helped raise for five years, thank you very much). So I chimed in with a comment about how I had been nervous her first day of kindergarten, hoping she would like it, etc. Someone said, “Oh well that was not even a stepkid; you couldn’t possibly get what we were talking about because it’s not your child.” I just completely shut down and stopped talking and left the conversation as soon as it was graceful to do so. That really hurt me, and it still chaps my ass to this day.

      She needs to stop it. I would say, “Cordelia, I don’t know if you realize it, but there are plenty of people who adopt / are adopted and have very loving families who would be very offended by your remarks. I think you need to find another topic of conversation.”

    11. SAHM*

      This would legitimately infuriate me. I think in the moment I would be too thrown by her absolutely awful values/thought process but I would definitely come back to her and ask her never to bring up the adoption stuff again. That I find it personally offensive because of X. Then if she ever said anything to me again about it, I would definitely go straight to her boss because it’s so offensive. I don’t know if that’s appropriate but, Hell, that is just so offensive I can’t even….

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe it is the bad in me, but I would have to ask her if no one adopts what do we do with all the parentless kids? And if couples cannot have children, do we tell them that giving birth is magical and they should do their own birthing anyway, in spite of not being able to?
      Does she understand that she can never take in a child of a family member because she would be adopting and by her definition this is not acceptable?
      Does she know that people reading her sign could be adopted people themselves or have adopted children at home?
      If we cannot adopt children because there might be something wrong with them, then maybe we should not birth children, either, there might be something wrong with them too.

      grrrr. She needs to get out more and experience the world more.
      If it were me I might have to say something to her.

      1. God is dog spelled backward*

        All that I could think about was wow . This person thinks all pets should be adopted but not children. I can’t even wrap my head around this.

  33. ThatGirl*

    Just random musings, but I recently moved to a new desk at work, and I’m around the cubicle corner from my immediate co-workers with another department. Judging by the conversations they have, this department is either paid hourly or their manager really, really micromanages their time. Which is odd, because I didn’t think we had many hourly workers here, I thought everyone except contractors and like, janitorial staff were salaried. (At least under the old rules.) But they talk about clocking in and staying a few minutes later because they were late back from lunch and leaving early to avoid overtime … which is just a foreign thing for me, here. I kind of want to ask them about it, but I probably shouldn’t, right? :)

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I do this type of adjustment when I’m late or something interferes with my time tracking (I’m hourly). For example, if I get in at 8:35, I stay until 4:35 (I don’t take a lunch break unless I’m going out with a coworker or need to run an errand–if so, I would clock out for the hour and stay until 5:35). If I leave a little early for an appointment, I either stay later the next day or so to make up the time or use PTO. It’s a juggling act sometimes.

    2. dont-wanna-manage*

      If it didn’t apply to me, I’d leave it alone. They are either hourly, or as you said, exempt but with a seriously anal manager who micromanages their time. Be grateful that you don’t have to account for your every 1/100th second.

  35. Gene*

    Working on hiring a replacement for the coworker who died and we are looking at interview questions. I work for a municipality with all the (IMO) stupid rules and procedures that go along with that.

    One person is strongly advocating for this question, but can’t clearly say what a “correct” answer should be. I personally don’t like the question, I think it’s too squishy for a technical field.

    The basic question is, “What are the reasons to have a diverse workforce?”

    Her suggested correct answer is something along the lines of, “Diverse workforces are more resilient and flexible.” Umm, not necessarily, resilient and flexible workforces are more resilient and flexible, I don’t give a rat’s patootie about their race/gender/religion/creed/etc.

    Your thoughts?

    1. Guinness*

      I would flip the question and ask about how they promote or value diversity, resilience, and/or flexibility through work experience or personal characteristics, but overall I kind of agree with you that the question isn’t a great one.

    2. Temperance*

      I actually had a related conversation with our Chief Diversity Officer last week. I dislike the word “resilient”. What he said is that workplaces who make diversity a priority do better. The biggest and most successful firms and companies in our country make diversity a priority. Why wouldn’t you want to emulate their success?

    3. cjb1*

      Why does she want to ask this question and what is she expecting to get out of it?
      Is this interview hiring for someone who would be in a hiring or HR position?

      I’m with you though, it doesn’t matter what race/gender/creed you are – just do a good job.

      And honestly, if someone were to ask me that question when I wasn’t interviewing for an HR job, I would really want to assume they mean “diverse” as in “many different skillsets and career backgrounds that round out a company” NOT “hire some blacks and some women and some LGBT etc”. So answering, I would focus on what the people are doing, not what they look like or what religion they practice.

    4. Jubilance*

      A diverse workforce often brings with it diversity of thought, which is better for an organization in the long run. You’ll have different people who will approach and solve problems differently as well as bring to light different issues that may go unnoticed if most of the workforce is similar in background.

      3. Liza*

        What Jubilance said! (Thanks for wording it so well.) For my favorite example of non-diversity in action, Google “racist soap dispenser” (without the quote marks). The sensor that was supposed to detect when a hand moved in front of it… only detected when a white hand moved in front of it. Not because it was designed that way on purpose, but because the development team apparently wasn’t diverse and didn’t think to take other skin tones into account.

      5. Florida*

        Being that I’m in Central Florida, Disney has a lot of radio commercials for jobs. At the end of every commercial, they say, “Disney is a equal opportunity employee drawing creativity from diversity.” I love that statement. They have to say the EOE part. But the “Drawing creativity…” part explains why they WANT to be diverse. It’s more than a requirement to try to be diverse.
        I’ve worked at places where everyone is basically the same and it’s just so bland.

        1. Old teabag*

          Anon for this because I’m already in a precarious situation at work.

          Your comment about blandness really got me thinking. We used to have people from India, Viet Nam, China, Russia and Turkey on our team. At one time, half our team was comprised of non-native English speakers. Now our team consists solely of white, native English-speaking people from this region of the country (plus one guy from the midwest, also white). I’m thunderstruck that I didn’t notice that the people of different origins have been slowly being let go or being forced out. It makes my blood run cold to realize this, and it makes me ashamed that I’m just now seeing it.

    5. JMegan*

      I also work for a municipality, and previously the provincial government, and I share your dislike of the hiring process! But yeah, given that you have to follow the rules, I don’t think that’s a great question. It’s too open-ended, especially for a tech field. Diverse workforces CAN be more resilient and flexible, of course, but you’re right that they aren’t always.

      I would push it back to your colleague by asking her to articulate what this shows about a candidate? If you’re interviewing someone who can produce the “resilient and flexible” response, does that necessarily make them a better candidate than one who doesn’t? Do you learn anything about the person’s skill set, interests, suitability for the job, by asking that question? Alternatively, ask her to specify what she is hoping to learn from that question, and see if you can help her formulate a better one. But make her do most of the work on that – if she wants the question that badly, she should be able to articulate why. Good luck!

    6. R Adkins*

      I had this question once in an interview (I hated it). I just said that diversity can bring different perspectives to a project and hopefully create a stronger end product.

      This was for an HR job — but personally I am not a fan without more context of these types of questions.

    7. Cambridge Comma*

      There are a lot of quantifiable advantages to having a diverse workforce. Resilience and flexibility might be tangentially part of the benefits, but I don’t think that has been the main finding of studies or the answer that most people would give. She might need to read up and expand that ideal answer. I don’t think it’s a bad question for weeding out people who react negatively to diversity.

    8. misspiggy*

      I think diverse workforces are more likely to generate products or services relevant for a large and diverse market. Take international development. Having a bunch of white, middle class people from the North run programmes for people in the South leads to terrible inefficiencies due to incorrect assumptions about what clients want and need. At the same time, if a programme was run only by the people for whom it was designed, they wouldn’t be able to tell the mostly white, middle class donors what they need to generate more funding.

    9. enough*

      I want a definition of diversity first. It seems that it usually means ethnicity. But no one ethnic group is homogeneous. So what are you looking for in diversity? And what is the purpose of the question? To weed out obvious bigots? To find people who work well with others in general or someone specifically?

    10. Joshua*

      My preferred answer to that question would be something along the lines of “having a diverse workforce can result in more views on a situation and more (hopefully better) solutions to problems.” However, why are you asking the question? If it’s to see how well the applicant would work well with others how about something more like:

      “Often times you need to work with people who have different opinions on how to get things done. Tell me of a time when you and a colleague had different solutions to a problem and how you worked together to decide on the best solution.”

      I think your original question is more of a culture fit question and you’re looking to screen for (i assume?) those who give an answer like “Wakeen and I disagreed on doing X, but we talked about the pros and cons of each option and decided that Y was the best way to do it” and screen out “Wakeen and I disagreed on doing X, but I always did what I wanted anyways because I knew it was best.”

    11. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If someone asked me that question, I would immediately wonder what kind of diversity they’re talking about. I’m not being obtuse– in a work context, I would hope there would be diversity of thought, education, life stage…. all kinds of things. Hiring people with diverse SKILLS would indeed create a more flexible workplace. Bottom line, I just think it’s a dumb question.

  36. anonanonanon*

    What are people’s recommendations for trying to find a job in a new city?

    I’m looking to move to New York, but I know it’s practically impossible to find a job without living there. I have enough money to move there on my own dime and pay first/last/security on an apartment (and I live in Boston now, so sticker shock isn’t an issue), but I’m wary of moving without a job lined up.

    I love Boston, but I’m born and bred Massachusetts and at 30 I really feel like I need to live in a new state. I’ve visited NY enough to know I’d love living there and my industry is much larger in NY, so I think it’d be better for my career.

    1. Journal Entries*

      My advice is to just keep trying. Apply and make sure to mention in your cover letter that you are looking to relocate. If you’re a strong candidate and are willing to travel to interview in person your chances could be good.
      It worked for me; I live in Michigan and have an interview in Maryland next week.

      1. anonanonanon*

        Traveling isn’t a problem. It’s a 3 and half to 4 hours train or bus ride, which is easy enough. Did you take your Michigan info out of your resume or cover letter? I’ve taken Boston off my resume, but a lot of online applications ask for an address and I feel like writing my current address immediately disqualifies me.

        1. AVP*

          Do you know anyone at all who lives in NYC and would lend you their address? I do get a little suspicious when someone with no address or an out-of-area address applies for a job with my company and don’t reference moving in their cover letter. So many people want to live in NYC but haven’t fully thought through how much it will cost, how stressful it can be to live here, how much you need to make in a new job to make it work.

          You sound like you have, though, so I would either try to get your hands on a local address or make a good case in your cover letter if you have that opportunity.

    2. Sunflower*

      I don’t know your industry so my advice would be to talk to some people in your industry in NY and ask what gives you the best chance. My advice would be different if you were looking anywhere but NY but IME, it’s really really really hard to get hired in NY from the outside and you’re better off moving there first. You might need to get a job for a few months to pay the bills(waitress) but I think its easier to get hired living in NY with no job as opposed to living outside NY with on. At 30, I think you might be at a point where if you knew someone, you could probably get them to bring you on from out of state but you’re still not far enough along that many employers are willing to take a chance on hiring an unknown out of state. My friend got a job in NY when she was living on the West Coast but it was basically entry-level and they told her ‘this is the job, this is when it starts. show up or don’t’

      From what I’ve seen, everyone I know who has moved to NY with no job has had one within a month or two.

      1. Sunflower*

        FWIW good luck! I’m in the same boat as you and I ended up taking my current job because I knew there was a strong possibility they would let me move to NY at some point. If you’re nervous about moving without something lined up, it might be worth it to search for jobs where that is a possibility. Of course, you’d probably have to stick it out in MA for another year at least but it might be worth it for you.

        1. anonanonanon*

          Thanks! My backup plan is to stick it out in my current job and save more money so I could move to NY without a job lined up and not freak out over money running out.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve done several out-of-state (cross-country) job searches, and I think there are a couple things to consider:

      1. It helps to have a story that’s convincing. For you, “I’d love living there” is enough to want to move there. That doesn’t sound as convincing to an employer. I think you can either make the case that the company you’re applying to appeals to you in some specific ways or that you have some life circumstances that compel you to move there (being closer to family, spouse got a job or is going to grad school).

      2. If you don’t have a convincing story, you should be in demand. If you have a highly marketable and underrepresented skill, then you should have no problem getting a job, and you won’t even have to explain why you’re interested in the company/New York. If, however, you’re a strong candidates, but there are equally strong candidates already in New York, just keep in mind that employers will have good reason to consider local candidates over you.

      I live in Boston now, so sticker shock isn’t an issue

      Boston proper is certainly expensive (compared to Salem, Quincy, or Waltham), but just keep in mind that New York is more expensive (Manhattan is pricier than Boston proper even), and the boroughs aren’t cheap either.

      1. anonanonanon*

        I have no family there and don’t have a partner. I want to move there because there are better career opportunities and it’s a bonus that I already love the city. I thought that was a convincing enough story. I don’t really think I need another life circumstance besides my career to want to move?

        I have double the amount saved to move to New York that I would need to move to Boston, so price really isn’t something I’m worried about. I know what I’m getting into.

        It really just is the issue of local candidacy that I’m worried about. I’m a strong candidate, but I’m pretty sure I’d rank equally strong as other people who are local.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          You don’t need a convincing story, but I think the gist of what I was getting at addresses two concerns of hiring managers when considering out-of-town applicants:
          1. Are you really going to move here?
          2. Why should I consider you over local candidates?

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Do you have anyone in your network that can refer you to a job? Employee referrals go a long way!

      I caution against moving without a job lined up. I moved to NYC without anything lined up and lived at a relative for free, but still found myself burning through my savings and going into debt in the 3 months it took me to find a job. NYC is expensive and it would suck to move here and not be able to actually experience anything because of lack of money.

      FWIW, I’m happy to connect you with any leads I may know of — what kinds of jobs are you looking for?

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Do you have anyone in your network that can refer you to a job? Employee referrals go a long way!

      I highly recommend not moving without a job lined up. I moved to NYC without anything lined up and lived at my brother’s for free, but still found myself burning through savings and going into debt before I landed a job (took 3 months after I moved here). NYC is expensive, and it would suck to move here and not be able to experience the city because of lack of funds.

      FWIW, I’m happy to connect you with any leads I may know of — what industry are you in?

    6. LC*

      I don’t have experience on the hiring side of things, but I think Boston to New York is close enough that you wouldn’t need to relocate first, particularly since a period of unemployment may be more unattractive to an employer than being out of town.

      What you do want to do is establish that you’re serious about moving to New York. I’m currently job searching in New York from abroad and just mention that I’ve enjoyed my summers interning there and am relocating when I return this summer. Admittedly, this would be my first job out of school, so there’s less skepticism about my willingness to relocate, but I think it helps that I approach moving as a question of [i]when[/i], not [i]if[/i].

    7. Hubba*

      It’s not that difficult to find a job in NYC while living in another city. Like you, I live in Boston and found a job in NYC relatively quickly(I’m from that area though). I know many other Bostonians who have done the same. Just use Alison’s advice regarding long-distance job searching and you should be fine. The bright side about NYC is that long-distance job searching there is pretty common and not so weird.

    8. Anon Moose*

      I’ve used a family member or friend’s local address when I was looking for jobs from afar. Otherwise, your cover letter has to make it clear that you are moving to the city (not just plans to).

    9. Mkb*

      Can you go remote with your current company to move then look for a new job once your living situation is settled? Or does your current job have an NY office you can transfer to?

    10. designbot*

      In my experience the best way to do this is to schedule a trip on my own dime and email companies that I’m interested in or especially have ongoing conversations with and say something like “I’m planning to be in the city June 7-10 to make plans for my move there. I would love to stop by while I’m in town and talk about any opportunities that may be available at your firm.” This pins them down into a specific date range and communicates to them your level of seriousness. They get out of town applicants all the time, 90% of which ultimately will not move to their city. Interviewing out of towners takes extra coordination, patience, and often $$, so the more you can help overcome those hurdles the better.

    11. skyline*

      Earlier in my career I worked in the Boston area in an industry that was much larger in NYC than Boston (publishing) and saw multiple Boston friends successfully get jobs in NYC before moving there. Could you be overestimating how hard it is to apply from that distance? I’m not clear from your post whether you’ve actually tried applying for NYC jobs yet.

  37. Guinness*

    I think one of the people on my team is a hoarder. Her things are starting to pile up outside of her workspace and it’s just below the level of being a problem. I’m trying to keep it from becoming a problem, but I also know that this is an uphill battle (my husband and I both come from families with hoarding lineage).
    We have shared personal storage space for staff (a closet with a coat rack and separate lockers), and her stuff is taking over the floor of the closet. It’s mostly work related items (or items that she feels she needs to do her work), and I think this is a result of us trying to limit her work related storage space (the stuff just magically appeared one day). I’m concerned that if we’re dealing with mental illness, addressing it in the wrong way is just going to cause her to hide or cover things in another way, and in that case, I’d rather just leave things the way they are as long as they don’t get worse. But I feel like I’m in a mine field… has anyone navigated this issue successfully?

    1. Temperance*

      It’s not your responsibility to address the hoarding/mental issue part of this, but it is becoming a problem for you. Tell her to clean up and ask if she needs help determining what to throw away and what to keep.

      Our office manager is a neat freak and her wanting a totally empty workspace is part of the reason that I now have my own (large) office, to hide the things I actually need to do my job.

    2. the_scientist*

      I think you might be over-personalizing this a little bit…..it’s equally possible that she’s just mildly inconsiderate and scatterbrained. I had a roommate in undergrad, for example, who did not understand why, in a shared house of 5 with one fridge, it would be problematic that her groceries took up the *entire* freezer and 90% of the fridge. “But I only go grocery shopping once a month,” she said, “I need to buy this much stuff at one time!”

      Similarly, when we moved offices at my old job, my boss was reluctant to throw out printed articles….from when she wrote her PhD thesis……14 years ago. I’m talking filing cabinets FULL of old papers. We waited until she left for the day and then tossed it all, not that I recommend that approach.

      Having things pile up on the floor outside cubicles can be an occupational health issue- if they are blocking routes of escape during a fire, or they create tripping hazards. That is a possible way to approach it. The other way is just to tell her that she only has so much storage space and needs to make her stuff fit there- the closet is not for work items.

    3. Amtelope*

      I think just start with “Your work materials need to fit in your workspace, and you can only use X amount of shared personal storage space (one coat on the coat rack, one locker, one pair of boots/shoes on the floor.)” Get her boss to tell her that if you’re not her boss, and to ask her whether she needs help prioritizing which work materials to keep in the office and which ones to throw away or take home. See how that goes before deciding this will turn into a huge problem.

    4. TCO*

      Tough stuff. Do you have an EAP? I wonder if that could provide some advice to you and/or could be suggested to her as a resource. I also wonder if there’s some kind of hoarding helpline that you could call for expert advice. It’s entirely appropriate to set boundaries and hold her to a standard appropriate for the workplace–but going about that enforcement in the “wrong” way (such as moving or throwing away her things without notice) could traumatize her, damage your relationship, and make the problem worse instead of better.

      Hoarding is tough. Good luck!

    5. Lily Evans*

      If you have no proof that there’s a mental illness involved, I don’t understand why you can’t just talk to her about it. You can play the “what-if” armchair diagnosis game all day, or you could say “Hey, your stuff is taking over the shared storage space. Could you [move it/consolidate it/get rid of it], please?”

      Maybe she’s a hoarder. Maybe she’s just a cluttered person who doesn’t realize the boundaries for the shared space (especially since it doesn’t seem like anyone’s told her it’s a problem). It’s not your responsibility to distinguish between the two.

      1. fposte*

        Agreed. Academics is full of hoarders, and I’m one of them, albeit on a low level. If we were to avoid telling people to keep their stuff within bounds we wouldn’t have room for students. It’s not a big deal to ask her to keep her stuff to its allotted space.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Agreed, and also the safety thing. We had two people at Exjob whose cubicles looked like an episode of Hoarding: Buried Alive. They would get a barrel and purge occasionally.

  38. RG*

    Why is this template so brittle that making one change breaks everything? Why did Amazon half ass the documentation so much that it’s almost impossible to figure out what changes you can make without having to set up and tear down an environment again and again? Ughhhhhhhhh

  39. Ihmmy*

    I’m contemplating applying to a job in my department that is… well, I don’t meet some of the qualifications and their ideal candidate has a master’s degree (which I do not) but the job itself would be really interesting (playing with data, analyzing trends, looking at big picture stuff to help make decisions) and a good stretch for me. But I feel like.. I’m not competent enough for it yet, but how else can I grow into something like that without just applying? Short of going for a whole other degree, and I don’t have that kind of time and money lately.

    1. Random Lurker*

      Go for it! Even if you don’t get the position, it lets management know that you want to move up in the org (trust me, so many people don’t say anything then get upset when opportunities are not presented to them, when in reality, we don’t read their minds!).

      Also, if you don’t get it, this is a perfect opportunity for you to discuss a development plan with your manager. In lieu of a masters degree, what areas can you focus on to be better suited for the role? Are there special projects that your manager can give you to help prepare you for this type of role in the future?

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      You’re a known quantity. Can you sit down with your manager or perhaps the hiring manager for that position and say something like, “I saw this job listing and I’m really intrigued by [aspect]. I don’t have the preferred master’s, though, so I’m not sure I should apply just yet. Based on my work here, do you think I would be a good fit for this kind of job? If I wanted to head in this direction, what kinds of things would you recommend that I work on?”?

  40. CA Civil Service Employee*

    I work for California state government and have started working on getting out. (There are so many things about the state’s civil service system that I would love Alison’s take on!). I have received consistent high praise for the quality of my work over the years and have done research on the value of my skills, but I can’t get a raise to bring my pay more in line with what my research supports (even though other workers in my office with the same level of skill are making it) unless I get an offer from somewhere else and maaaaaybe the state will match to a certain point. I cannot wrap my mind around this. It seems like an extremely risky way to try and retain people. I have a solid case for the value I bring to the state and the data supporting a higher level of pay, but I’m only actually worth more to the state if I can show someone else is about to bring me on board. It’s pretty demoralizing.

    Other interesting things: if my replacement were hired from the private sector, the state would be highly likely to pay them at the level I am asking to be paid at. In terms of annual raises that are a part of the system, an average/competent employee and an excellent employee earn exactly the same annual raise. The whole scheme incentivizes the best employees to leave or stop working so hard.

    1. Creag an Tuire*

      That sounds incredibly bone-headed — the worst part is I suspect your management knows how badly it disincentives good employees but is constrained by state policymakers because MUH TAXES.

  41. Anon For This*

    I love my job and where I work, but I can’t really continue to make the amount of money I’m being paid (if it’s market rate, it’s at the low, LOW end of market rate and frankly I’m not sure it is market rate). I applied for a job on Linked-In at the end of March and in true AAM fashion, put it out of my head. Well, they contacted me for an interview next week and it’s scheduled and I’m so excited! It’s also in a completely different part of the industry work I do. (Right now I work for the company I represent; this would be for an agency that represents many companies.)

    The upside to putting it out of your head is that you don’t fret and if they get in touch with you it’s a pleasant surprise. The downside is having no recollection of the job description and of course on Linked-In once the job closes the link is no longer active. So I can’t go back and look at specifics, I can only look at general duties that people with this title work on and look at who the agency reps. ARGH! Despite that, I think I’ll be well-prepped for the interview. I’ve been reading up on the company.

    That’s it! Just had to share!

    1. Guinness*

      Good luck! I know I’ve learned the hard way to e-mail myself the job description so I have it just in case :)

    2. Megs*

      Good luck! I’ve gotten into the habit of emailing the text of job postings to myself because I’ve gotten stuck in exactly the pickle you’re in before – oops. Have you read Alison’s free interview guide? It’s short and sweet and awesome.

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      Good luck! I had the same thing happen to me recently so I’m going to start emailing job descriptions to myself and saving them to my laptop at home. Try reading through Glassdoor descriptions or reviews for the company- might give you an idea of what to ask or look for!

    4. KiteFlier*

      Google it! They may have it posted to Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. that is still up or in the internet archives somewhere :)

  42. Sunflower*

    My department does bi-monthly meetings for all the non-management staff. It’s basically a way for us non-managers to build presentation and leadership skills. So I’m leading and I can do my presentation on basically anything I want that would be interesting or of value to the group. I’ve been searching around Inc for some ideas but I’m super curious to hear what you guys would like to hear about. I’d like to encourage a lot of discussion as opposed to me telling the group things they probably already know (ie communication is good, teamwork=better results, etc)

    Past topics included email etiquette, stress management/meditation in the office, best practices for my area, etc. What topic do you think would be interesting to discuss?

    1. Random Lurker*

      When giving a presentation, you have to think about the desired outcome. Is it to educate? Drive to action to accomplish something? Attempt to change behavior? I would think about what you want to accomplish and then back into a topic that way. If you want to educate, maybe a topic that is around your daily work that you’d like others to understand better.

    2. TCO*

      Our team loves presentations about personality-profile type stuff, such as an overview of StrengthsFinder, communication styles, appreciation languages, etc. If you want to encourage discussion this topic might be a little personal for some teams, but it’s interesting and applicable info.

  43. Lady Kelvin*

    So I have a job interview this afternoon, which is both a relief and a huge stressor. Its for a position that is in my field but is significantly below my qualifications and I would be being paid about 1/2 of what I should be making if I got a job at my level. However, I am graduating in about 2 months and absolutely have to have an income once I’m done, because my research stipend won’t be paying me past July. Would it be terrible for me to accept the job, work for a year or so, but know that I am planning on moving on because there is no way this organization can pay me enough or use my skills long term? For what it is worth, I would be getting something useful out of the job, because I would be learning about the domestic side of my field and all my experience is in the international side, which would make me a stronger candidate for jobs down the road where I want to be. I’m trying to get a gov’t job, and I know they typically take a long time to come through, so I can’t wait around hoping for something to happen. If I don’t have a job before I’m done, I’ll have to work in retail or wait-tables until I find one, and I’d rather have a job in my field even if I am overqualified for it, because at least I will be learning something new and I won’t have weird gap in my resume.

    1. Lady Kelvin*

      Oh yeah, I should mention I’ve been job searching for 6 months and this is my first interview. The job market in my field is weird, my skills are in demand, but there is no funding/private industry jobs available, so you either work in academics or government or in a non-profit where you are doing things slightly related to your field but they really don’t want or need (or pay) PhDs.

      1. Jules the First*

        Really try not to overthink this – if this is just a first interview, you’re nowhere near the point of having to decide. Go meet them, see how you get on, and then listen to your gut.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I think if you’re planning to stay for a year, it’s not deceptive if you take this job (assuming they offer it to you- they might not, if they think you’re overqualified). If that timeline shifts in your head to only being with the company for around six months or so, rethink it.

    3. LC*

      It sounds like you’ve answered your own question. You need a job when you graduate, and your options are unlikely to include your dream job. So your options are waiting tables or taking something in your field. I’d say take the option that will allow you build relevant skills every time.

  44. PaperbackFighter*

    I have a question for the librarians of AAM: have any of you ever been to ALA Annual? If so, do you have any recommendations for someone attending for the first time?

    I’ve decided to go for the after spending the last few years in a non-library field and I’m feeling a teeny bit overwhelmed by the whole thing.

    Thank you :)

    1. OhNo*

      I have not gone myself, but I’ve had several friends go. The best piece of advice that I head from them was to try and meet new people AND connect with people you already know while you’re there. One of my friends started a killer network when she went – she reconnected with old colleagues and friends, made new acquaintances, and got introduced to a bunch of new people by both groups. She now has contacts all over the place, it’s fantastic.

      Also, try to go to at least one or two “fun” sessions that might not be related to your work or goals. I try to do this at other conferences and meetings – it’s a great way to give yourself a brain break and learn something new.

    2. fposte*

      Yup. It’s good fun! Pace yourself, because it can be tiring; if you’re already overwhelmed at the thought, put some rest time for yourself into the schedule so you’re not worried about it. IIRC Orlando’s spread out, so you’re not likely to have a hotel that you can pop into whenever you want, but you can build in rest time before dinner and downtime during the day. Convention centers at ALA are *full* of people quietly sitting on the floor in corners of the building. (We are also good at finding secret sitting areas.)

      Figure out some goals–are you looking to expand particular knowledge by attending panels? Check in with vendors in the exhibit hall? Find some people to network with at events and panels (people are pretty ready to talk to strangers)? That can help guide you through a day with too many choices–I find it more satisfying to know what I got tired for :-).

    3. EmilyG*

      In addition to the part about resting (crucial!) I would suggest scrutinizing the schedule carefully in advance. Based on my experience with smaller conferences, I assumed I could flit between sessions easily my first time at ALA Annual in Chicago, only to find that some sessions were in hotels far away from the convention center. For me it works better to plan ahead exactly what sessions I want to attend where and the travel time between them. Sometimes it’s not physically possible to get to them all, so I end up taking a time slot to decompress at Starbucks.

    4. Librarian*

      Definitely keep locations in mind as you’re planning your schedule. Orlando will be my 2nd ALA and hopefully less spread-out, but I ran into some travel issues in Vegas. It’s also not a bad idea to at least explore transit options other than the ALA shuttles. The shuttles are a great fall back, but it’s freeing to know you have options other than packing into those buses!

      Particularly because of spacing I’ve found it helpful to have backup choices for each time slot. That way if I can’t find the session, can’t get there in time, change my mind, etc., I have options.

      Do NOT feel bad about giving yourself a break. By day 2 or 3 I’m usually fried and those last few sessions on my list sometimes don’t happen. Unless there’s some boss/job-related expectation for specific sessions, forgive yourself for taking breaks.

      Remember to build in food times! Snacks and a water bottle are good to carry on you in case you can’t stomach another convention center hotdog.

      Portable device chargers (like Jackery, but there are other plans) have been a godsend for times when I can’t find an outlet.

      Finally, I would say definitely make sure to hit at least one of the poster sessions. I skipped them my first ACRL and ALA and wish I hadn’t. They’re kind of chaotic, but you can pick up SO many ideas/info in a short period of time, and a lot of people have awesome handouts. And you don’t have to talk to the poster presenters if you don’t feel up to it.

      Good luck and have fun!!

      1. Librarian*

        *brands, not plans. I should know better than to type a post this long on my phone!

    5. skyline*

      I’ve been a bunch of them, though I’m skipping this year. Some general tips:
      – Don’t feel like you have to attend a session during every time slot. Take time to rest and relax and process what you’re learning. Also, it’s better to ditch a session that isn’t working for you than to suffer through it.
      – Wear comfy shoes, and take more than one pair, so you can alternate as needed.
      – Portable device chargers and/or travel-sized power strips are godsends.
      – Bring a water bottle. (I have one that is lightweight plastic and rolls up when it’s empty.)
      – Bring your business cards, and attend some networking events. You may not be getting lots of invites if you aren’t already well connected, but there are plenty of open happy hours, etc. In the long run, I’ve gotten much more value from my professional contacts than I have from the sessions that I’ve attended.

  45. Bowserkitty*

    Saturday night I started a muscle relaxant prescribed by my dentist for some bad TMJ. I was aware it could potentially interact with my antidepressant in a bad way but the pharmacist said if I took only one relaxant pill each night I should be fine. This whole week I just haven’t felt like myself, and finally yesterday I went home after being at work for an hour. I told my boss I had nausea and a headache – I had no idea if it would be appropriate to tell him I’ve been fighting a medication reaction this entire week that finally caught up to me.

    I don’t know if I’m looking for advice (though if you have some I welcome it) or commiseration, but I wish there wasn’t such a stigma against mental health treatment. I have no problem talking to my friends about this stuff but I don’t want my boss to think I’m on “crazy” pills, or that needing an AD makes me unstable to work.

    (I stopped the muscle relaxant last night; it hasn’t done jack for my jaw and the detractors outweighed whatever benefits I was waiting on!)

    1. Rebecca in Dallas*

      No advice, but I can relate/commiserate. I’m really, really lucky that my family (well, one side) has always been really open about mental health treatment. Several of the women on my mom’s side have dealt with major depressive or anxiety disorders, so I’ve seen them come through on the other side, plus had a great support network for my own issues.

      I always think of that cartoon, “What if we treated mental illness the way we treated physical illness?” I think of my antidepressant the way a diabetic would think of their insulin, it’s part of my daily routine and my health would suffer if I didn’t take it.

      I think society is starting to come around to being more open about mental health, but we certainly have a long way to go.

      So sorry about the medicine interacting! Hope you can get some relief from the TMJ soon. Make sure your doctor knows that they interacted for you, that may affect what kinds of medications they want to give you going forward.

      1. Bowserkitty*

        Thank you!!! When I got prescribed three years ago it changed my entire life for the better and aside from some rando anxiety attacks that have decreased in number, life has been pretty good. I very much agree with that cartoon! I believe I’ve seen it before.

        I see my dentist again on Tuesday for the last time in a while (yay root canal follow-up) so I’ll bring it up and see if there’s something else that could work.

    2. Lily Evans*

      I think you could tell your boss it’s a medication reaction without having to specify what the medications are for.

      1. Bowserkitty*

        He hasn’t brought it up today but if he asks how I’m feeling (which he hasn’t) I might tell him that. That seems safe enough, thank you.,

      2. hermit crab*

        I’ve done this before (when both going on and going off meds), and nobody batted an eye about it.

    3. Ihmmy*

      You may also want to talk to your dentist about TMJ – mine made me a mouthguard for when I sleep to address my bruxism, which was aggravating my TMJ something awful. I’m still always tense there but at least I’m not hurting my teeth too.

      1. Bowserkitty*

        I’ve had the mouth guard for a few weeks – I was so excited to get it, which sounds weird LOL. I asked for a muscle relaxant after it didn’t seem to help. :/ However, and I agree with her on this – she suggested that having so many dental procedures within the span of a few weeks (root canals are so tedious) has not helped my case, so after my final procedure next Tuesday it should have more of a chance to start healing.

        2. h.cowl*

          I have really bad TMJ too, all my sympathies. Basically I’m just in some form of pain literally all the time. Sigh.

          The mouthguard is good for peace of mind as now I know I’m not destroying my teeth, but I think it’s actually made my jaw pain worse.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      You can say medication without saying what it’s for. I sometimes say prescription–most people assume it’s for a physical thing. *Not on AD now but was for a while*

      I totally agree, though; there should be no stigma. That there is in this day and age is just maddening. Sometimes I want to smack people for being so backward.

    5. Lady Bug*

      Not answering your question, but my husband had great success with acupuncture for TMJ. The pain was gone in 2 sessions and he only has occasional clicking now. Its been at least 8 years since he had the treatment.

    6. Old teabag*

      I wish there wasn’t a stigma, but there definitely is one and I would advise not saying anything. I said something to my then-boss about a bad medication reaction causing me to be depressed and unable to think. That’s what caused me to need to take off a couple of weeks for FMLA, and I could see the change coming over his face when I explained this. I never should have said a thing. Things have gone downhill drastically since then and it looks like they are starting documentation to fire me (of course they’re not using anything mental-health related as their reasons).

      You might be fine if you say medication reaction, but I wouldn’t mention anti-depressants at all. It’s sad, but I’ve learned my lesson and I won’t ever do that again. I have to think that some workplaces would be understanding, but it’s not worth the risk (to me).

    7. Seren*

      You should tell the pharmacist about the reaction, they’ll be able to suggest alternative muscle relaxants that won’t have a reaction to the antidepressant. Then you can bring up those alternatives when you talk to your dentist.

  46. Navy Vet*

    Happy Birthday Alison! I hope you get lots of good cake :)

    Great news here this week! I was told I am doing a great job and I got surprised yesterday, they gave me a fridge for under my desk. (Used, but new to me!) This is great for me due to my dietary restrictions and will make it easier for me to avoid cross-contamination at work.

    I’ve been at my new job for 8 months now, I also wanted to say thank you to Alison and the whole community. This blog helped me so much in finding this job and maintaining my sanity while trying to get out of a miserable work environment. It’s easier to work at your ridiculous job when you know there are people out there who are demanding employees livers. (At least mine didn’t want any of my internal organs) It doesn’t change how shitty it is, but it helps you cope!

    I feel so, so, so much better now. I almost feel like I should make one of those “It gets better” videos!

    For other physiological battlefield survivors…how did you get past your conditioned unhealthy responses?

    1. Laura*

      You get your own fridge?? YES! Your employer is awesome.

      I’m still trying to move on from working for a dysfunctional employer. I worked there for four months and quit six months ago. For me it just takes time, and being aware that I changed industries, so the pressure that was normal at bad workplace is not even remotely present at my new job.

      It doesn’t help that my boyfriend works at bad workplace… so when he talks about work, I can sometimes be “triggered” and start having bad/depressing thoughts or anxiety. But time heals all wounds. I’m working on trying to be a supportive partner to him while making a clear disconnect between his job and my past. :)

    2. Elizabeth West*

      OMG a fridge! That’s awesome.

      I still have a time with this–since I got a new boss, things are changing but it’s too early to tell how that’s going to go. It looks promising but I’ve been burned before. So I’m trying not to freak out and be cautiously optimistic (not succeeding very well, I’m afraid). I think a small PTO break around my birthday at the end of the month will help.

    3. periwinkle*

      “It’s easier to work at your ridiculous job when you know there are people out there who are demanding employees’ livers.”

      I am going to print that out and hang it on the cubicle wall. It’s a good reminder about keeping perspective *and* might attract some fellow AAM devotees.

  47. Librarian Ish*

    It’s a slow part of our year, which is discouraging/a little boring. Even in our busy times, I have a _lot_ of downtime. I just found out our dean is leaving for another job and we’re facing a budget shortfall, so they’re possibly halting hiring a replacement for one of my coworkers. I spent a good section of time panicking that they’d determine my position is excessive and lay me off.

    So imagine my surprise when in the budget meeting, they said they’re pushing to hire a second person to help me out with all my tasks. I was told to be adamant that I’m really swamped with work and that I need the help. But I don’t?

    I don’t even know what question to ask the group. I was speechless in the meeting – which was probably a good thing! Just…what to do if you need work and they tell you that you already have too much?

    1. Anna*

      They’re asking you to make a case for the other position because if they lose it, it’ll probably be scrubbed from the budget. You’re in a tough spot. If you tell them you’re having a hard time keeping yourself busy, they could determine they can use money for your position somewhere else, but then again in academics and government nobody wants to cut a position because if they do and need it later, they have to make a really hard case for more money. It’s easier to leave a position vacant. You could bring it up to your manager as a casual observation. “I know they’re looking to bring someone in to help me, but this is our slowest time and I’m handling the workload just fine. I worry it’ll be difficult to find enough work for two people.” See what they say and then let it go.

    2. OhNo*

      Does this give you an opening to work on some professional development or pick up any new tasks or responsibilities that could support other people in your department?

      Whenever I feel like I don’t have work to do, I run down this list in my head to see where I might be able to make work for myself:
      Are there any projects I can work ahead on, even if they’re not due yet?
      Are there any projects that I tabled for when I “have more time” that I can start on?
      Do any of my coworkers have tasks that I can help with temporarily?
      Is there any training I can do now so I can pick up new tasks or projects in the future?
      Does my boss have any “someday” projects that I can start on or help with?
      Can I do any professional development or reflection?

    3. Laura*

      Higher ed is indeed slow and boring right now. I would be candid with your manager about your workload. Being honest now will endear you to him/her and save everyone time, money, and headaches down the line.

    4. Librarian Ish*

      Thanks all for the advice, especially the point about keeping a spot vacant.

      I liked the list of things to do, and I have found some that way. I just have to keep the note of desperation out of my voice when I ask if I can help with anything :)

  48. Abigael*

    Here’s a question for any religious folks out there:

    I work at a Christian non-profit. My coworkers are great, and they have invited me to join in on a very intimate Bible study group they are starting–they describe it as a “missional community” and/or a “family.” Anyway, part of me is excited to get to know my coworkers more closely, especially since I live alone and have struggled to find good friends in the area since starting this job 2 years ago. And I do think it’s a nice idea to be investing in and supporting each other’s spiritual lives, especially since we work in a religious context and our faith is closely related to our organization’s mission. Also, I don’t want to be the only person in the office who is not joining in with “the family.” At the same time, I also feel wary about having my work life and my personal/spiritual life blending together so much, and I’m not sure how comfortable I would be about sharing really intimate details about my faith with my coworkers. But at the same time, I don’t want to “pretend” to be part of the family and go to the meetings but only share really superficial, not-genuine things about myself. Do you think I’m over-thinking this? What would you do in my situation?

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      I think I would go, but perhaps keep the sharing to a minimum. Make the sharing genuine, but it doesn’t need to be deep. As you get to know these people, in a work and personal setting, you’ll have a better idea if this is a group where you can open up more, or a place to simply find other connections. Because you can also find other connections to external groups, and then try them instead.

      There are advantages to having close spiritual friends at work, and disadvantages too. One good reason to find external sources of friends is so if and when you leave this job, you don’t also have to leave your friends and support group.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I agree. I think a Bible-study group (or something similar) can be good but having that work/home or divide can be good — if you want that deeper spiritual/family sharing perhaps a different Bible study/small group via church or something? Though it can be hard to find time for 1, let alone 2.
      And I hear you about the not wanting to “pretend” either.

    3. Joanna*

      I wouldn’t freak out too hard in the absence of other red flags about the “missional community” language. That seems to be pretty common these days and doesn’t appear to always mean an overly intense group. Perhaps you could try to tease out more info about how how intense it is with some questions that sound like you’re curious? Perhaps something like:
      – What section of the bible/topic are you guys focusing on at the moment? How are you finding it helpful?
      – I’m curious about the name “missional community” as it’s not one I’ve heard used much before. What does that description mean to you?
      – Every bible study I’ve been in has had different things to like. What in particular do you really like about this one?

      Also, I wonder if there is options to be partially involved? Perhaps you could say something like “Thanks for inviting me. I’m a bit busy at the moment to take on another weekly bible study meeting, but if you need some extra help for service projects or special events, let me know.”

  49. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    The interview for well-paying gig was last week. Just got call yesterday I’d find out about progress today, and that they were finishing interviewing internal candidates, and that they really liked speaking to me. Is this code for give up now? On the bright side, I do have a different company calling about an on-site interview for next week.

    Tl;dr: Do external candidates ever win? Especially if they are 2-3 yrs experienced/excellent workers with a ton of masters-type degrees? Or do I just give up? :/

    1. ASJ*

      It is code for : they were finishing interviewing internal candidates, and that they really liked speaking to you.

      Don’t torture yourself with that “what did they really mean?” game. You’ll never win.

      Also, just because you’re an external candidate doesn’t mean you’re automatically out of the running. In my (admittedly not vast) experience it depends largely on the individual company, the job, and the strength of the candidates (internal and external).

      Good luck!

    2. External Candidate*

      Just to let you know, I was recently an external candidate with 2-3 years of experience with just one masters degree and I got a job offer. External candidates can win!

      Also, I have to give a lot of credit to the place you interviewed at that they called you to give you a heads up on the timeline. Most of the places I interviewed for only called after a decision was made (and I was left in the dark until then!). They were being extremely nice to keep you informed, but you shouldn’t read it as a sign of your status in the interview (but it’s a good sign that they’re a conscientious employer).

      Don’t give up!

    3. catsAreCool*

      “they really liked speaking to me” might be code for “we really liked speaking to you, so if you don’t get this job at our company, keep trying!”

  50. anon for reasons*

    I just wanted to share my excitement! This is my first “real” job, by which I mean my first job that hasn’t been a temp. I work at a university and raises are automated; last night I attended a union meeting to find out information about the new contract. If it goes through, I’ll be getting my first ever raise! $0.30 (an hour) for last year, $0.30 cents (an hour0 for this year (so more like $0.60 since we’ll be getting it at once) and $0.35 (an hour) for next year. I know it’s not a huge raise, and we can’t negotiate to change it, but it made me happy regardless… also if the contract goes through we are guaranteed the week off between Christmas and New Years Eve.

    I was always a bit disappointed with my starting pay (HR refused to negotiate at all) so I feel like this might help make a difference (provided it’s not all swallowed by taxes or higher union fees, of course).

  51. Anon for this post*

    I left my toxic job a few months ago. The advice I’ve read on here from Alison and others was invaluable in helping me through the process of getting a new job.

    (When I say that my last job was toxic; a pregnant employee started bleeding and collapsed. She was rushed to the hospital in an ambulance and had a premature birth. They tried to fire her because she left work early. They also fired the person who called 911 for using the phone for non-work related purposes. There was other stuff as well.)

    Yesterday I made a mistake at my new job. Today I was sick in the bathroom and I could barely compose myself enough to go talk to my manager about it. He didn’t even care or get upset. He told me it no big deal and we fixed it together. He also sent me for lunch early to relax and was so concerned about me being upset because he didn’t want me to worry. He told me about times he made mistakes and he keeps telling me to calm down because he can see that I am still hyper.

    At my old job I would have been screamed at in front of everyone and possibly sent home without pay for the day and it would have been held over me forever. I know it wasn’t normal for them to do that but it was all I knew and I got used to it and accepted it as normal. My manager knows what my old company was like because he has hired others from there besides me. He is understanding and he told me he wants me to not stress.

    A big thank you to Alison and everyone here who gives help/tips/advice about how to get a job and leave a bad job. You helped me (and so many others as well I’m sure).

    1. ASJ*

      I have very little to add, but I just have to say my jaw dropped when I read about your former coworker. That is a new level of OMGWTF. I am so glad you’re out of there!

    2. Bowserkitty*

      Today I was sick in the bathroom and I could barely compose myself enough to go talk to my manager about it. He didn’t even care or get upset. He told me it no big deal and we fixed it together. … At my old job I would have been screamed at in front of everyone and possibly sent home without pay for the day and it would have been held over me forever.

      I’m dealing with the same thing, Anon!! It’s very hard to shake the feeling from the old, toxic job. I was even assured that a recent humongo mistake I made would not be held against me in the future, that most people would be likely to forget it. It’s nice when mistakes can be positively learned from.

    3. Argh!*

      This sounds like PTSD. If you don’t get over it soon, try therapy. I had PTSD from an old job (different kind of dynamic) and I had nightmares for years after leaving it.

      1. Lily Evans*

        I second the therapy suggestion. I used to overreact to making mistakes too (thanks to my mother, not a previous job) and therapy really helped to reframe my state of mind in those situations.

    4. Observer*

      Therapy sounds like a good idea. Just make sure you deal with a therapist who understands that this level of toxic really does exist.

      I mean, your former employer sounds like a real candidate for “Bad Boss of the Year.”

      And, by the way, I know that a LOT of stupid things are legal, but is it really legal to fire someone for using a work phone to call 911?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I don’t know about that, but if they fired the pregnant employee for having an emergency, she could have sued them right into the next century.

      2. Not a Lawyer*

        I’m not a lawyer and not speaking to employment law, but in many states it would be illegal to prevent someone from calling 911 to report an emergency. Also in USA, while in most cases people do not have a “Duty to Rescue,” the employer-employee relationship is often considered an exception to this – meaning the employer has a duty to rescue employees in peril while at work.

        Now I don’t know what this means after the fact about firing the employee. But the employer would likely have been in a huge risk of a suit if the employee was prevented from calling 911 to save the pregnant coworker.

        However, this would be a great news story for the fired employee to leak.

      3. Nina*

        Are 911 calls even charged? I’m not in the US but here in Oz emergency numbers are free from all phones.

        1. Windchime*

          911 is free from all phones, I believe. It wouldn’t even make sense to have a system in place that people couldn’t afford to call. I think this was just a terrible, terrible employer.

    5. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      My old manager was so controlling I would have to tell her my whereabouts for anything longer than a trip to the bathroom. In my new job I have a ton of autonomy and flexibility, but it took months for me to stop telling my new manager and co-workers every time I had a meeting or was leaving the premises for lunch. It really does make you question what normal and acceptable are.

  52. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Sort of work, sort of not — but lord, could I use advice!

    Part 1: My lease is ending in six weeks, and my current roommates are moving on to their own next thing with no room for me. I’m at an age where most of my local friends are settling down, and I’m experiencing a keen longing to have a place of my own, instead of being a third wheel or a houseguest or what have you.

    Part 2: Layoffs! My company is closing the office I work at, and so I know my job will be going adios sometime this year, but I don’t know when. Probably not before I have to move, but really, I don’t know.

    So here’s the dilemma: I’m trying to look for an apartment and a new job at the same time, and trying to navigate what is the most sensible. I cannot houseguest with any of my local friends, as for the most part they either have leases that forbid houseguesting for more than a few days, very small places that won’t accommodate a third adult, or cat allergies. Apartments anywhere within reasonable driving distance of my current job are shockingly expensive; the ones that are affordable for me on my own are mostly far enough away that I can’t physically manage the drive, or the patchwork of unreliable public transit.

    What on earth do I do with all this? I don’t have the savings to leave my job without another one lined up and forego the severance they’re offering, and until I have a job offer in hand I don’t feel I can bank on getting one in any kind of particular timeframe, but managing this all is just exhausting.

      1. SophieChotek*

        +1 to sublet

        And I don’t know about where you live and I’ve never tried it myself, but some friends were building a new house and instead of renting an apartment for a year, they put their stuff in storage and moved into one of those long-term hotels that you paid by the week or by the month or something like that.

        I think they saved money, as it was cheaper than rent or committing to a long-term lease (1 year) when they knew their huse would be done i a few months but didn’t want to renew lease to their place either, etc; they really had to pare down on stuff, but it worked for them, and then when their house was done, they didn’t have to re-pack again, they just got it of storage and moved in — plus they had optin to extend stay in hotel a little at a time if issues arose with house/needed to get away from chaos of unpacking

        Not sure what they did about food…if this type of hotel had small kitchenette/microwave…

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          I’ve looked into it, and the extended stay places where I am cost more a month than I take home by a factor of about 50%! Cause truth be told, that seemed like an attractive option until I saw the numbers.

          Though, most extended stay places do have a kitchenette. They’re pretty nice if you have to stay someplace.

          1. SophieChotek*

            That’s too bad. Must depend on the place or maybe my friends were lucky (or their rent was insanely high…)

            Sorry–hope you find some situation!

    2. ASJ*

      I sympathize. I sympathize so hard you don’t even know, because this was me just over three years ago when my parents decided to sell their house and my (temp) job was ending. All the hugs in the world.

      Can you ask your manager or supervisor if they have any clarification on when you’ll be laid off? Can you look for a new roommate? What about one of those places where you just rent a room? If the latter, could you negotiate a month-to-month lease? Or at least a one year lease, which means you know it would be temporary.

      I completely understand the desire to be on your own. But right now I think you’d be better off with a roommate or a rented room. Both provide slightly more stability and will give you the luxury of taking your time to search for a place you really like (HINT: Don’t be like me and end up miserable in a place with mold in the walls and the power company threatening to shut your power off because your landlord hasn’t paid the bill). It will also give you a chance to focus more on the job search.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        My manager has already committed to making sure we all know whatever she knows as soon as she knows it. The company made sure to make the announcement as soon as they knew it was going to happen, but that means that they are still working on the plans for just how the transition is going to run while we all panic and job-hunt.

        I’ve been digging into rooms for rent. It’s a bit tough, since I’ve got a cat and most places don’t want to take her — but she can’t be rehomed either. I’m pretty sure that going to a shelter would just straight-up kill her, since she’s old and not healthy and easily stressed out, and I really can’t rehome her to anyone. But getting a room would still be better than the ultimate “this or the streets” solution — move in with my parents in Nowheresville Michigan, minimum half an hour from any city, and try to job-hunt from there.

        1. ASJ*

          If worst came to worst, would your parents be willing to take in your cat for say, 6 months while you stay in the city and rent a room? It’s not ideal, but presumably if you were going there they would take your cat too… just a thought, as my parents also live an hour away in a very small town which would’ve made job hunting next to impossible.

          Either way, don’t stop looking! Also, don’t forget about yourself in all this. It will be really easy to burn yourself out with so much going on. Make sure you set aside some time to relax and enjoy your favorite activities, even if it feels like you really super don’t have the time to do so. You’ll come out much better in the long run if you do.

    3. SophieChotek*

      House sitting for someone away for a few months?
      Or I’ve read/heard online about people doing that with Airbnb, etc. for several weeks/months at time; (and the related concerns of NYC (?) tenancy laws)….

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I did housesitting two Christmases ago for almost three weeks because we absolutely needed our own space over the holidays. I used trustedhousesitters.com – I think there may have been a very small subscription fee. Depending on where you are located, sometimes some much longer places to sit can come up. The cat does make it a little difficult. I would second subletting though, especially as its almost summer and there must be some sort of student type accomodation around.

        I definitely feel for you as I am in the same position (almost) – while our living situation is secure for the time being, it is too small and the noise too much to stay here much longer. Also, we parked our two cats with my partner’s parents two and a half YEARS ago and well, its time they moved home (no, seriously, they are driving his mother up the wall because its summer again, and these are cat loving people!). They need to move here (we are in different countries) but our current place is too small for everyone. Finally, my work contract is ending and I think I have a date in a few months, but who knows with that place. Finding a place to live in this city is a nightmare and I just can’t face dealing with both job and house hunting. Essentially I need to get everything sorted out by second week of August otherwise I am going to be stuck all day in a noisy apartment with two unhappy kitties who won’t want to be kept inside. Ugh. It makes planning anything else impossible!

  53. Newly pregnant at new job*

    I’m sure I’ve seen this on AAM, but it didn’t apply to me before so it didn’t stick…but I’m that position where, uh, I got pregnant within days of starting a new job. I’m thrilled, but very nervous about telling them.

    My workplace has a great work/life balance and offers a lot of flexibility, but definitely, absolutely only after a period of probation. Maybe probation isn’t the right word, but I’m sure you get what I mean. I’m not supposed to take any time off for the first few months, for instance. But now I’m probably going to have to for doctors appointments. I haven’t had time to prove myself yet and now I need to ask for time off and oh yeah, an entire maternity leave in the not so distant future.

    Any suggestions on how to navigate this would be appreciated. What to Expect When You’re Expecting says you should tell work before you start showing, and you shouldn’t be apologetic about getting pregnant, which makes sense. But when is a good time? Eight weeks? Ten weeks? Twelve? Longer? I’m torn between wanting to tell them as soon as possible, to get it over with and give them lots of notice, and waiting longer until a more appropriate time because That’s How Things Are Done.

    So, when’s the right time? Any suggested phrasing to use?

    Thank you!!

    1. ASJ*

      I think doctors appointments are one of those things that are excluded from the whole “don’t take time off” thing. For me, I went without insurance for years so you better believe I had some appointments when I had insurance again. I’m sure I’m not alone.

      Ignore how things are done, don’t worry about ample notice (telling them at twelve weeks, for example, is still at least 5 months of notice which is plenty IMO), when do YOU want to tell them? When do you feel comfortable letting the word out? That’s what I would focus on.

      Also, congrats!

      1. Anna*

        ASJ nailed it. They don’t mean doctor’s appointments and the like, they mean vacation, long weekends, etc. And absolutely tell them when you want to tell them.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Yep! When I started at my new job, we were informed that for the first 7 weeks (intensive training) there would be no time off, none, not a bit. But when a coworker’s kid had to go to the hospital, she got the time off for that with no questions asked. Reasonable workplaces understand medical needs.

    2. Also pregnant*

      Congratulations!

      I’m sure any reasonable company would be fine with doctor’s appointments, but if you also try to get them scheduled for first thing in the morning, then you might not even have any issues. I usually go in to work by 9 am and if my appointment is at 7:30 or 8, I have no problem getting to the office on time. (Also, then your OB has less of a chance of being delayed!)

      If you have any sort of intranet, you might be able to find information about FMLA, short term disability, all that kind of stuff there, so you don’t have to ask right away and still feel like you have the information. Or if you have a separate HR department, you can call there.

      Don’t feel any rush to tell them, though! When you feel comfortable sharing that information is fine. :)

    3. just a thought*

      Whenever is right to you, is right. This kind of thing happens so don’t worry about it too much.

      There really aren’t many doctor’s appointments in the first trimester assuming you would fall under the low-risk category like most women. You might have 1-2 appointments, and that may or may not include an ultrasound.

      And congrats! Best wishes for a happy, healthy pregnancy.

    4. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I have a very supportive work culture – so everyone including my managers know that I am trying to get pregnant. Really it depends on you. What makes you comfortable? What is your relationship with your boss like? It’s up to you.

      I also disagree that Dr.’s appt = must tell them now. I had several back-to-back Dr.s appointment two weeks into my job and I did not tell anyone what it was about. Good bosses let you make Dr.’s appointments.

    5. MM*

      Wait until at least 12 weeks to tell them, or in some cases anyone. Miscarriages are more likely to happen in the first trimester and that may not be someone you want to share with everyone in a new office if it unfortunately happens. Best of luck and health togo u and your family!

  54. RecentGrad*

    I am in some serious need of advice. Sorry for the long, tangled backstory–this entire situation is quite a mess.

    I am a days-old graduate who was recently hired by a startup run by a father and a son. The office space is shared by a few different startups in the area, and I am one of the few females in the entire space (and the only in this company). For a month, I was working as an intern under the son to learn the ropes, but now I am their first full-time employee. The money is great, the benefits are good, but there’s a bit of a problem. Upon accepting the full-time position, I was told by the father that the son was “very hot on (me)”–direct quote–and implied that this was the reason I was hired.
    The son has been asking plenty of uncomfortable questions (which, for me, is anything that doesn’t directly regard the job, given he’s my supervisor) and made me go on a walk outside the office with him while I was interning, to a less populous area. Having endured sexual assault before, I’m terrified of going back to work every day and my productivity is shot.

    I don’t know what to do or what there is that I can do. There’s no HR department, nobody unrelated to this man, my supervisor/boss, to talk to. Does anyone have any advice? This is my first ‘real job’ and I love the work that I’m doing, but am so terrified of the environment that I can’t focus. Thanks to everyone.

    1. Liana*

      Leave. Immediately. Honestly, if the father is comfortable saying something like that to you and doesn’t understand how wildly inappropriate that is, you’re not going to get anywhere by talking to them about it, and if you’re genuinely worried for your safety, that needs to take priority over everything else.

      I walked out of my first job out of college after being sexually assaulted by a coworker. It was an awful job to begin with, so I didn’t have any attachment to the work I was doing, but after talking it over with my parents, I made the decision to walk away without giving notice. I don’t regret it. If you’ve only been there for a couple months or so, you don’t even have to put it on your resume – I keep that job off mine and it’s like it never even happened.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      Run! but not until you have another job lined up. Start looking yesterday and until you find something new do not be alone with the son EVER. Trust your gut.

      1. Liana*

        I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with this. If she’s “terrified” and worried about sexual assault, her safety is absolutely, 100% more important than finding another job. I get that it’s easier said than done, and RecentGrad may not be able to afford leaving without a job lined up, but if she can swing it at all, even a little bit, she should leave.

        2. nutella fitzgerald*

          Agreed. Plus I would argue that if you only graduated days ago, you could leave this off your resume without worrying at all about raising red flags about a gap in employment.

          1. Liana*

            Yep. At my AwfulJob, I was only there six months after college, and I also had a part-time job hostessing at a restaurant, so I just pretend like it never happened (the job, not the sexual assault. That’s taken some time to work through). I think most hiring managers are understanding about the current economy, and they get that most people are not going to graduate with a job immediately lined up.

            @RecentGrad – can you take a side job in retail or the restaurant industry to pay the bills while you look for something else? Or sign up with a staffing agency? I did both of those things while I was looking for full-time entry level work, and it saved my butt.

      2. blackcat*

        Given that she graduated VERY recently, I see no reason to not quit immediately. It won’t look like a gap and there’s no reason to ever put this job on a resume.

    3. Anna*

      Do not stay where you don’t feel safe. There’s no reason for you to dread going to work because you worry for your physical safety. Or your mental safety, because having to worry about it is unsafe.. Is the start-up in an incubator of some sort? You can probably approach the org that runs the incubator and ask for some guidance. Even start-ups have to answer to answer to someone and this is Not Okay.

    4. OhNo*

      Oh dear, I’m so sorry you have to put up with that.

      First question: what would make you feel safe here? I imagine quitting and never returning is on that list, but is there anything else? Would you feel safe if the son apologized and made an obvious effort not to be a creep? Would you feel safe if he didn’t say anything but just backed off?

      I’m asking because you do have a lot of options, from walking away to confronting him to putting up with it until you can find a new job. But the route you take is going to be dependent on what outcome you want.

    5. calonkat*

      RecentGrad, first of all, deep breath.
      You say you are terrified of the environment, but love the work. If you are terrified, then just quit. You have the right to leave any job, and don’t stay somewhere that you feel unsafe. You can find work that you love in an environment you feel safe in!

      If “terrified” was not the correct word, then I’d talk to the pair of them about your concerns. The only reason I suggest this as an option is that you worked there as an intern, and felt comfortable enough to keep the internship and accept a permanent position. But if you feel that you might be in danger, then please do not stay in that position.

    6. animaniactoo*

      First – evaluate whether you have the resources to take a risk on waiting this out while you job search. Can you talk to some of the employees from some of the other companies? Let them know that you need someone keeping an extra eye out for you and making it hard for son to go off to a less populous area with you? People who can frequently be “just dropping by” to make it harder for son to be alone with you in the office, who can walk out with you when you leave, etc.?

      If so, then set that up. And start job searching immediately. I would also pick up a small airhorn or pepperspray that you can keep on your keychain in your pocket, to protect yourself in case that’s not enough.

      In the meantime, I would also be as clear as I could that you’re not interested in the son, that you are very uncomfortable with his interest in you (and make that clear to both the father and the son), and be very careful about your replies to his questions. Answer the bare minimum of information. Nothing he literally does not absolutely need to know. If it begins to cross the line, the answer is “I’m sorry, that’s personal.” Firmly. Not with an apologetic tone, no further explanation, just wash and repeat if he tries to ask again.

    7. Laura*

      I was a recent grad myself just a year ago. You need to get out. Now. There are plenty of other jobs out there, and you will find one. But you need to distance yourself from these people ASAP, for your own well-being and for your professional health too.

    8. Joanna*

      As scary as this is going to be, you’re going to need to leave in the near future. Obviously the most important thing here is your physical safety and emotional wellbeing. However, there’s also the secondary issue of learning unhealthy habits here. The longer you stay the more likely you are to be learning survival mechanisms and ways of relating to others that you’ll unconsciously carry into future jobs, sabotaging your productivity and relationships there.

      In the meantime, there’s a few things that might be a good idea. One is to document in writing every example of harassment with times, dates and as much detail as you can. This will probably be an unpleasant task in the moment, but if he tries to screw you out of entitlements or otherwise violate your rights as you leave, you’ll have things more together if you have to get the authorities involved.

      If you can’t leave straight away, see if you can find some allies in the other companies using the space. If the guy is so wildly inappropriate, it’s likely that other women using the space have experienced his bad behaviour or at least have a hunch that something isn’t right. Perhaps see if you can privately have a chat to them so that they can be keeping a look out for you and perhaps if they are willing walk with you to your car or join you for lunch so you don’t have to be alone.

      While you’re working on what to do, I would also suggest setting things up so if there was an incident that meant you had to literally get out of the building that very moment and never come back, you could do that easily. For example, don’t leave any personal email/social media accounts logged in on their computers, make sure any payroll related documents you have to complete are always up to date and minimise the amount of personal possessions you have with you at work.

    9. Pineapple Incident*

      Late to this answer, but I have to echo with the others that say this is a job to leave ASAP. This is a situation where “wait until you have another job lined up” does not apply, as your safety is at risk. If the people you work with don’t realize that you can’t just be folded into the family and date their son without being asked (or at all interested, which clearly you’re not), these are not people who will listen to reason. Get out now, leave this off your resume, and if you have to cite it on a work history you can tell the truth about why you left so soon.

      And talk to someone about this- it’s okay to say out loud if someone is making you uncomfortable or scaring you. Make a scene if this person engages you inside your personal space, and always remember that HE is creating the awkward situation, not you. Good luck- we need an update soon from you to know you’re okay.

  55. Sideline*

    If I ask for a raise based on my current performance, am I committing myself to staying for a while? Is it a jerk move to ask for a raise and then leave within the year?

    Also, anyone have tips for asking for a raise in a tough budget climate? I don’t want to appear out of touch, but I’ve been here two years and I think I can make a strong case.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is it a jerk move to ask for a raise and then leave within the year?

      No, it’s not, especially if you don’t know for sure that you’ll be leaving within the year.

    2. ThatGirl*

      No. You don’t know for sure if or when you’ll leave.

      Focus on your accomplishments and your case for getting a raise. The worst they can say is no, or throw out a smaller number than you wanted.

    3. ASJ*

      No. You don’t know for sure you’ll be leaving within the year. Continue acting at your current job as though you have no plans to leave for the foreseeable future.

  56. Nova Terra*

    This is tangentially work-related since it pertains to workplace advice and the site, but if it’s too off-topic I can repost on the weekend open thread.

    Alison, I think Bryan and Donna are your go-to people for general legal advice for your letters (with the IANYL caveat since they’re not actually taking on the letter writer as the client). How did you start collaborating with them? I’m really curious since at least one of them don’t even live in the same city as you; what started the trend of sending them bits from your letters? And how do you decide which letter to send to whom?

      1. Nova Terra*

        I’m picturing Bryan reading your blog, making “THEY DIDN’T” faces at some of the ridiculous posts, and immediately emailing you to offer to collaborate.

        How long have you been in contact with the two of them re: legal questions, if you don’t mind my asking?

    2. Hubba*

      Thanks for asking this question! I love learning “behind-the-scenes” tidbits about how AAM works.

  57. Liana*

    I believe I’ve mentioned in previous open threads that I’m interested in teaching English abroad, specifically in Thailand. Well, a few weeks ago, I applied with a US-based agency that places teachers abroad, and I had my interview on Wednesday! I think it went really well, even though it was over Skype and I’ve never done a Skype interview before. They said they usually get back to people within a week, so I’m trying not to be impatient, but I couldn’t stop myself from checking out flights from Boston to Thailand yesterday so I could get an idea of how much it would cost. I may have also googled “apartments in Thailand” for an hour or so.

    I’m still a bit conflicted about leaving my current job. If I do end up getting the teaching job, I’d leave in October, since Thai school semesters start in November and I’d need to do the four-week training course first. So that would mean I’d be at my current job for just a year and a half. Not the worst thing ever, but people tend to stay in this job for much longer than that, so I feel like a bit of a failure for not liking it.

    1. ASJ*

      Try not to feel like a failure. Not every job will be perfect (or even okay) for everyone. Frankly speaking, if this job isn’t one you like or enjoy for whatever reason, I would congratulate you for sticking it out for a year and a half… Don’t feel bad for moving onto brighter and better things.

    2. Liza*

      Liana, that’s so exciting! Good luck. I visited Thailand in 2010 and spent a while after that daydreaming about getting a job in the State Department or something so I could move there.

    3. misspiggy*

      Very exciting! Do read up about the more challenging aspects to life in Thailand – the better prepared you are, the better placed you’ll be to avoid them. I’d say political issues (never criticising the royal family you’ll know about, but be generally careful in the current political climate), road safety/accidents, and potential negative perceptions of you as a Westerner are some things to think about. It’s perfectly possible to have an amazingly wonderful time in Thailand, as long as you’re aware that it’s not all lovely.

      1. Liana*

        I’ve heard that the political climate is a bit tricky at the moment – I should definitely read up on that.

  58. Red*

    I am a team lead for a team of 20-ish teapot makers, along with a co-lead and a manager. Our entire team, including the three of us, work remotely and spread across the state. We’re brainstorming on how we can do team-building for those who want to participate, while still respecting that some people are doing this job BECAUSE strictly speaking they don’t require much interaction with their coworkers and can just get their work done and call it a day, and also trying to figure out a remote-and-widespread equivalent to bringing in donuts or something. Another team with a similar structure sent out electronic gift cards to everyone, $5 to starbucks or some such, and actually got in trouble with HR because we can’t give the team anything that could be considered “extra money” without jumping through some kind of hoops about taxation or something. I don’t know what the rules are about offering extra PTO, I suspect probably not allowed officially because of the size of our employer (some 40k employees statewide) and the fact that our team’s metric is production, so we can’t unofficially let them knock off early because it’ll hit them negatively in their number of teapots painted per hour. Any ideas?

    1. Px*

      Virtual happy hour or something like that? Virtual team lunch via Skype or something?

  59. Allison*

    I have a new pet peeve: loud, constant throat clearing. My coworker was sick sometime in the last month or so, and like many people she has a residual cough and – I guess – some post nasal drip. I know this because she clears her throat every 5 minutes. It’s very loud, and kind of sounds like that throat clear passive aggressive people do to get attention. It’s driving me nuts.

    I swear, I can remember a point in my life where I didn’t have any significant pet peeves. Now, in the past two years, I seem to have a few. In addition to the throat clearing, people who stomp when they walk (like, slender people manage to make the room shake) and people who open doors unnecessarily aggressively, like they just BURST through the door for no apparent reason.

    1. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Ugh, two of my coworkers are doing that right now! It totally drives me crazy. One of them is on vacation next week, hopefully she comes back completely well.

      I was in a focus group the other night with a guy who was super congested and kept doing that awful suck-up-all-the-snot noise. I can’t call it a sniff because it was sooo much worse than that. I kept looking around to see if there were tissues anywhere and there weren’t. If I’m sick, I try to keep a travel pack of tissues in my purse. I know blowing your nose is kind of gross, but that noise is so much worse!

      1. another IT manager*

        I’ve got that right now mostly because blowing my nose isn’t doing anything, and it’s at least as irritating for me as for you. :|

    3. Mander*

      I do this a lot and it’s totally unconscious. My throat is just always claggy, for lack of a better word, and nothing seems to make any difference. It’s been like that for years.

  60. LotusEclair1984*

    Happy Birthday to Alison! Happy National Bike Month to everyone!

    How do you approach riding in inclement weather? What is appropriate attire for cycling and work – and do you change in between? What kind of bicycle accessories and sundries enable you to bike to work successfully? Please share your cycling-to-work tips and tricks of the trade, and ask questions too!

    1. Gene*

      Fenders. Front fenders with mud flaps. A good wind-front jacket in an eye-searing color. Antifog glasses. Waterproof shoe covers. Helmet cover. All the lights. And some more lights. And lots of bright, flashing lights, if you look like a Disney Electric Parade float, you are there. Something besides your voice to make loud noises (I use a Freon boat horn in a stem-mounted water bottle cage). WaterPROOF panniers.

      Attire is proper cycling attire. But I have a shower and locker, so I change to work clothes at work.

      1. Lizketeer*

        As someone who watches the Main Street Electrical Parade at least once a week, the image of someone on the side of the road dressed like the snails (preferable with the Baroque Howdown playing) is very entertaining

    2. Liza*

      I like commuting by bike and I sometimes really enjoy riding in the rain, so I’m enjoying this thread! I’ve decided that I’m happy to bike in the rain OR after dark, but not in the rain after dark. (But I live in an area where there are lots of buses and they all have bike carriers on the front, so if I’m out late on my bike and it starts to rain, I can take the bus home.)

      I usually bike to work in my regular work clothes, but my commute is short enough that I don’t get overly sweaty. I do make sure to shower that morning before my ride, because sweat on top of old sweat is way stinkier than sweat on top of recently-washed skin. If I’m biking to work in the rain, usually I don’t try to avoid getting wet, I just take fresh clothes with me and change in the bathroom when I get to work. I have waterproof pants I can wear for biking, but since they’re not breathable, wearing them makes me sweaty-wet instead of rain-wet.

      Among the accessories etc that I like to use (some for inclement weather, some for all the time):
      * A very very bright chartreuse jacket or vest–I like to be seen when I’m biking!
      * A very very bright chartreuse helmet–ditto.
      * Good front AND rear AND wheel lights–ditto. The wheel lights are fun, they cycle through different colors (no pun intended on “cycle”) so it looks really cool when they do that while spinning around.
      * A pannier bag so I don’t have to wear a backpack (I like the Ortlieb Racktime Workit Classic, it has the right pockets for me and it has a waterproof cover in a side pocket).
      * A rack to put the pannier on.
      * A folding basket on the other side of the rack, opposite the pannier–so I can stop for groceries on the way home.
      * Fenders.
      * Utterly unnecessary but fun: a portable Bluetooth speaker so I can listen to music without blocking out the outside world with headphones–I have one that sits in my water bottle holder. I listen to a lot of 90s Europop (like Aqua) when I’m biking. :-)
      * A good lock. Last year I learned about folding locks–they’re strong like U-locks, but more convenient to carry. Abus makes them.
      * Glasses or sunglasses or goggles–something that keeps most of the rain out of my eyes and won’t fog up when I stop at a light.
      * I also carry a bike tool (a folding thing that has a couple of screwdrivers and several sizes of hex key) for minor repairs and adjustments.
      * My bus pass, in case of emergency.

      1. Liza*

        Oh, and those nifty reflective velcro straps to keep my pant legs pulled tight so they won’t catch in the chain. I knew I was forgetting something.

        1. LotusEclair1984*

          Awesome comprehensive checklist – thanks Liza! I usually abstain from biking in the rain, but after the 5 Boro Bike Tour this year (super wet, but fun!), I am considering it. Need to get more gear though and new brakepads.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      1. Appropriate attire – anything you can bike comfortably in! I bike in skirts/dresses every day and make it work by choosing knee length or longer hems, wearing bike shorts underneath or using a bike garter, and wearing lots of layers so I can regulate my temperature so I’m not super sweaty. I avoid synthetic fibers and prefer cotton or moisture wicking tops, and I also use a makeup setting spray so that nothing runs if I sweat. I take 5 minutes to adjust my hair and cool down in the bathroom when I arrive, I keep a little kit with me with a brush, hairspray, etc. in case the helmet hair is particularly bad. I am a master at helmet friendly styles (low side bun FTW). I work on a sprawling campus and it’s awesome to not have to spend 15 minutes parking after a 5 minute drive.

      2. Accessories – ride or die would be my bike basket, a good lock, and a bike that suits my needs (in my case a full size folding bike that can fit in a trunk if needed).

      3. Inclement weather: A helmet with a visor is key for keeping rain out of your face., ideally 2″ minimum but 3-5″ is better. I wear a rain poncho that goes to about my knees because I bike in skirts every day. This works well for light or moderate rain. I agree with others that heavy rain in the dark is a bad combo if only because of poor visibility + car traffic. I also have good tires that grip well so I don’t loose traction if the roads are wet.

      1. LotusEclair1984*

        Hadn’t thought about a visor to protect against the rain – thanks! I have an old Nutcase; not sure that a visor could fit into it, but definitely worth looking into.

    4. another IT manager*

      Ditto to everything said about lights. Ride defensively, aggressively*, and don’t be afraid to scream when someone’s about to merge with your hip. I have gotten louder since I started biking.

      My commute is about three miles each way, mostly flat, and work is business casual(ish) on the East Coast. I usually wear work pants, clothespinned out of the way, and a shirt that I change out of when I get to work, plus appropriate layers. I get in, hit the restroom, wipe down my face and the sweaty bits (neck, back, arms, pits), and change my shirt. In really hot weather, I change pants and shirt.

      Wool longjohns are the BEST in winter, and bar mitts are the second-best. Mine I picked up from Amazon for like $17; they were intended for ATVs. (And then someone pulled them off my handlebars, along with my headlight. Grrrr.) If your helmet has that adjustable strap in the back, you can fit a light hat underneath in the winter, which will reduce the layers you need overall. Winter biking is less about staying warm and more about controlling windchill–I prefer a lightish layer all over that I can vent to heavy anything.

      * Defensively because you are squishy and easier to damage. Aggressively because you belong there and it’s harder to hit you if you keep moving.

  61. Adele*

    I posted this as a comment on the short answers yesterday, but pretty late in the game. Basically, what is the function of a notice period? I’m heading to grad school in a different state in the fall, but haven’t given notice yet. I have a pre-planned, cannot-be-changed vacation week scheduled around the time I’d like to give notice. It would be very helpful to my budget to be able to take the week off, and then come back to work for a final week, but I’m not fully sure my boss will like that. I’m thinking I might give three weeks notice instead of two, eg, give notice, work a week, take my already scheduled vacation, and then come back for a final week. I’m not really sure what I “owe” my employer – does a notice period imply that you will be in the office for the whole time?

    1. Kassy*

      The idea behind a notice period is to wrap up projects that you were working on if possible, give status updates to your manager or whomever will be covering until they hire someone else for your position. In my job, two weeks would be plenty sufficient, as the people around me are pretty knowledgeable about what I do and probably we could hammer out the specifics in a couple of days. There are plenty of more specialized jobs, though, where two weeks may not do the trick. Presumably, it also gives them time to start working on providing your replacement.

      The polite thing here is to give as much notice as you safely can. Your plan of three weeks with one week of vacation is probably fine, unless you have reason to believe your employer might do something like let you go that day. Employers who act that way set themselves up for short notice periods.

    2. Laura*

      I think your plan of three weeks’ notice is perfect, and your employer will definitely appreciate it too. When you give notice, explain that your vacation is completely booked and cannot be changed. Reasonable management will understand.

    3. Anon Moose*

      I actually have a similar situation- I’m heading to grad school and moving in August. I gave my notice as soon as I decided I was leaving. However, my boss helped write my recommendation letters, so she knew it was coming for a while. It wasn’t as if I wanted to hide it or could- I’ve been open about applying for school since the beginning (actually, since my initial interview I told them it was my plan in a few years) and my boss and coworkers are all happy for me.
      I’ll also be taking some of my accrued vacation time a week before leaving. Because of the very long notice period, it will work out just fine (and they’d have to pay me out if I don’t take my vacation so they prefer it actually). More notice also allows me to be involved in hiring for my replacement and hopefully to overlap with them for a bit. And for the company to plan.
      I don’t know about your job and the culture there. If they would let you go immediately when you gave notice, then obviously you should wait. But grad school and an impending move aren’t necessarily seen as bad things at all by most people I don’t think. You’re not leaving because you hate the job (well, you might but that’s not relevant) but because you have an unavoidable conflict of school/a move. Telling them sooner rather than later may be a professional way to go and also give you more room to negotiate the vacation.

    4. Liza*

      Adele, I think your plan of three weeks’ notice (and being in the office for two of those weeks) sounds perfect. Because of the purposes Kassy outlined, it would be a problem to give notice and then be out of the office for your entire notice period, but you’re not planning to do that.

      1. TootsNYC*

        In a way, it might be great–you spend the first week doing some wrap-up and documentation, then you’re away and they try it without you, and then the week you’re back, you fill in any holes they discovered.

    5. Adele*

      Thanks everyone! I think part of me is a little anxious about how it’ll all play out, but this gives me more confidence.

  62. Preux*

    I’ve always worked in front line customer service (food service, bank teller work, etc.) but sometime in the next few months I’m going to be starting at my first office position. (Don’t know when yet – it’s an internal position and the offer was contingent on me staying in my current position until they hire someone to replace me.)

    Is there anything I should know about this kind of change? Any tips from other people who have made similar moves? I’m just not sure what to expect! I did ask them at the interview for a sort of overview of what I would be doing day-to-day, which they didn’t seem to think was an odd question and it did help a lot, but I feel like I’m going to be walking into a totally different work culture and I won’t know any of the norms.

    1. ASJ*

      For me, one of the biggest changes was being able to leave my desk whenever I wanted…. I could just get up and walk away?? Without asking permission??? What is this madness?

      Also, the ability to keep food and/or drinks with me. I’m an admin, but I can eat at my desk if I want to. Not so much with front line customer service positions like you mention.

      One thing I will mention… expect a slow transition period. IME, don’t expect your computer to be set up. And even if/when it is, you might be slow to start… I’ve heard some people say they were thrown into the fire, but I have pretty much always experienced a very slow beginning even when they knew someone was coming.

      1. Preux*

        Ahh thank you so much! Yeah, I’m already weirded out by the idea that I won’t have to check in with anyone if I go to the restroom (I’m a supervisor now, but I still tell my tellers I’m going before I step away from the line!) and there won’t even be a lunch schedule? I assume? Like will I just be able to go whenever I want???

    3. Sparkly Librarian*

      I’ve been en-officed for nearly a decade now (mostly still on the front lines of customer service), but from my observations with my wife’s interactions with her coworkers over the years: A lot of retail workers act like they don’t want to be there, but it’s understood that they need the money. So they perform the functions of the job (which often includes near-manic cheerfulness with customers) but complain to coworkers. The people I have worked with in offices generally act like they want to be there (and if they don’t act like that, there’s something wrong and it reflects poorly on them) and like they have a choice to be working here or at some other company. Things like not working to the clock (maybe finish a task even if it takes you 3 minutes past closing time, that is — not working unpaid hours), not always acting in one’s own interest at the expense of others, and being pleasant but not overly intimate with coworkers and customers are all expected in the office environments I’ve worked in. Employees at my prior retail/hospitality/food service workplaces, and at several of my wife’s, indicated the opposite was true there.

      Trying not to paint with a broad brush — I am aware that there are stellar retail employees and office Eeyores! — but rather speaking from what I have personally experienced and observed. My tip would be to look and listen a lot during your onboarding, and take your cues from the people who seem to be respected by your new coworkers.

      1. ASJ*

        I would agree with this. At my first temp job, I used to pack up and be ready to leave at 4:30. It was finally, kindly pointed out to me one day that that’s not necessarily a good thing – you shouldn’t be getting ready to leave UNTIL 4:30. And it’s a piece of advice that served me well: my supervisor for my current job commented on the fact that I never seem to be in a rush to leave and I’m willing to stay late if necessary, whereas previous people in that position did the whole ‘race out the door at 4:29’ thing every sigle day.

        The oversharing bit… that’s a work in progress, at least for me, but I’d agree with that too. It’s a difficult line to walk IMO.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I think that’s how you can tell things are going downhill in an office job–at Exjob, someone told me people used to stay late, etc. By the time I got there, they were running out the door at 5 pm like the building was on fire. I think there was some burnout at play.

  64. nutella fitzgerald*

    Happy birthday, Alison!

    Opinions requested: Is writing your to-do list on a chalkboard at your desk fun or overly twee?

    3. Sadsack*

      I wouldn’t say fun, and I don’t understand what twee means. If it works for you, who cares? I use outlook and another database for most calendar events, but I also handwrite a list of major projects for each month on a paper pinned to my wall. It helps me having a list of things at a glance so I don’t lose track of them. The paper is not large and I don’t think it would draw anyone else’s attention though.

    6. TootsNYC*

      sometimes having a some playful element to a chore is part of what makes you stick with it. Like, buying pretty hangers or a snazzy hamper might entice you to use them more consistently.

      If it’ll be effective for you, do it.

      I don’t think you need to feel responsible for guessing ahead of time that your coworker hates the sound of chalk.

    7. Forget T-Bone Steal, Let's Eat T-Rex Steak*

      I do that with a whiteboard. I don’t like chalk though.

  65. ExceptionToTheRule*

    After 20 years of working a full-time job, a regular part-time job and freelancing on the weekends, I was finally able to give notice at my regular part-time job. Because it’s a very small organization and I had some previously planned time off scheduled, I ended up giving them seven weeks notice and said I’d be willing to train my replacement but when June 30 rolls around, I’m done.

    Can I tell you how liberating this has been?

  66. Going crazy*

    In the past Alison has responded to someone who was asking about their loud laugh possibly irritating people. What do you do if your boss is someone who talks and laughs loudly at everything (e.g, if she is talking about her breakfast during which nothing funny happened she will shriek with laughter the whole time)? She doesn’t pick up on any clues e.g. the fact that everyone puts on headphones as soon as she sits down. We work in a library so I can’t understand why you would choose this work if you have to speak and laugh loudly continuously. She started a year ago and at that time as a team we spoke to our boss’s boss about her but she is rarely in the library. People in our open plan office have complained to us privately because her loudness causes problems with e.g. conference calls.

    2. fposte*

      You can let her know if you’re on a conference call and want her to be more quiet, but other than that, you can’t really say “You are too loud for me and please be different.” (Which you probably knew :-).)

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      These people who have complained to you about her? If she’s not their manager, urge them to take their complaints directly to her, since they won’t have the awkward boss dynamics that you do.

  67. Nervous but not sure why...*

    I’m interviewing with someone who is probably 10 years younger than I am, but she’s in a more senior role. I have more overall experience, but based on her linked in profile, she has a higher position than the position I’m interviewing for. I already feel it’s going to be awkward. She won’t be my manager, but I’m already going into this interview feeling like she’s going to be looking down her nose at my. And she went to Harvard….Any suggestions?

    1. Anna*

      This is about you, not her. You have no idea how she’s going to react to you. So far you’ve made assumptions about her perception of you based on her age, her experience compared to yours, her title, and her educational background. Try making another assumption: That she’s going to interview someone whose resume impressed her enough that she decided they would be worth talking to and that she’s interested in making a recommendation for the best candidate.

      1. Lily Evans*

        Agreed. It’s not awkward unless you make it awkward. No reasonable person would bring you in for an interview just so they can “look down their nose” at you.

        1. AnotherTeacher*

          Agreeing with other advice so far. Another question today was about academics with egos. With that in mind, I have to add that the nicest, and often funniest academics I’ve worked with have been Harvard and other ivy grads.

        2. Sadsack*

          Yes, I don’t want to come down on you too hard, Nervous, but you seem to be afraid that your interviewer will make negative assumptions about you without really knowing you, when that is exactly what you are doing to her. Is that a lack of confidence on your part? As others have said, you were chosen to interview, so she seems to have a positive view of you so far.

          1. Nervous but not sure why...*

            Thanks for the comments. What I didn’t mention was that I seriously doubt she chose me to interview. The job is for a large company and she’s not the hiring manager. So I’m pretty sure she didn’t pick me, but was told she’d be one of several to interview me. That doesn’t change the advice you’ve all be kind enough to give me. Thank you!

    2. Triangle Pose*

      Treat it as you would any other interview. I’ve been the interviewer in this situation. You don’t want to do yourself a disservice by acting oddly or generally behaving any differently because she is younger and more senior/went to Harvard. Assuming she is a reasonable person, she will be evaluating you on your skills and experience – there is no need to cloud that with preconceived notions about her.

  68. Tammy*

    Not a *problem* per se, but looking for advice on how other people navigate this kind of situation. I have a friend at work, Ophelia, who I’ve known for a couple years. We’re reasonably good friends, and see each other socially outside of work from time to time. In December, my role changed at my current company, and one of the people in the department I now manage is Fergus. Fergus happens to be Ophelia’s husband.

    On the one hand, I work for a company that kind of has that “we’re all a big happy family” corporate culture, so people having social relationships with people they work with is VERY normal here. On the other hand, I don’t want to create the perception that Fergus is going to get “special treatment” from me because I’m friends with his wife – but I’d also like to maintain my friendship with Ophelia. Thus far, I’ve kept my interactions with Ophelia outside of work, and pretty discreet, so I don’t think this is actually a problem yet, and given our corporate culture it may not turn into one. But I’d love to hear from others how (or if) one can successfully walk that line.

    1. Anna*

      I think you can’t talk to Ophelia at all about anything Fergus work related. You can’t have any conversations that are “I’m sure Fergus told you, but at work…” That’s not to say you can’t talk about work at all, but I’d stick to things that don’t have anything to do with Fergus’ role.

    2. Aussie Teacher*

      Unless you can comfortably performance-manage Fergus, up to and including firing him if necessary, you should think twice about managing a friend’s husband. What if you need to reprimand him? What if you had to fire him? How will Ophelia react? Make sure you think through it carefully… I would be very wary!!

  69. Frogman*

    Happy birthday, Alison!

    Career-change-exploration question here. I’ve been a scientific researcher in academic settings for the past six years. I want to do something different (among other reasons, because I’m not good enough at what I do now to progress much more). My most transferable skill is writing clearly about complex technical subjects for both specialist and lay audiences (among scientists who have a reputation for not being able to write, I stand out for doing it well). Where can I go with this? I’m already searching job sites with variants on “technical writer” to see what’s out there, but looking for more search terms.

    Also, specifically about federal jobs: when they advertise a requirement of one year of experience with writing technical reports as the focus of my job, do my six years of writing scientific reports as a core part (but not the focus) of my job qualify?

    2. themmases*

      Another option is medical and scientific writing and editing. In addition to the well-known problems some academics have expressing themselves clearly and formatting correctly, the fact that so many major journals are English-only poses a problem for many worthy international researchers. In some cases, they will pay to have their work formatted, edited for fluency or style, or even translated.

      I do a bit of this on a freelance basis for a company owned by a friend, which is mostly aimed at researchers from my friend’s home country. We also offer expert editing when available, i.e. if we have someone knowledgeable about that field, they will review for content and try to give an idea of what they think journal reviewers would think of the paper. I am working on one right now and it’s actually really fun. I don’t care about the writing so much, but I do like learning about the authors’ research and offering suggestions for how to improve it.

      As a related job, if you are knowledgeable about data analysis that can be very valuable. Qualified statistical collaborators who can express themselves clearly in writing are prized, and you might be surprised by what qualifies. Many people, and even many researchers, are not knowledgeable about statistics at all and don’t really need a statistician. For example, I used to work in a medical field where the MDs would be implementing cutting-edge physics research in people with very complex medical problems… But would want the biostatistician to run the t-tests in SAS, and me or them to explain what the result meant. Reviewing whether I think the statistical analyses are appropriate, and suggesting different ones if needed, is part of what I do for some clients.

  70. Susie*

    Happy Birthday! You share the day with my 17-year old daughter. :) I love this blog and visit daily.

  71. overeducated*

    Hey all! I posted last week saying I had received two offers and was trying to decide! I did wind up deciding on the one that had the higher salary and some help with health insurance, even though it is only a two year position and involves a long distance move. It is sort of a unicorn job – a unique position that almost seems written for someone with my background and interests – so I’m very happy that it came along at just the right time, and feeling like maybe getting a PhD wasn’t such a huge mistake after all. Now I need to use this opportunity to prepare for a broader range of non-academic careers.

    The obligatory AAM thanks: thanks to all the commenters for advice and support in this long search; to Alison for the archive of solid advice; and especially thanks for the sample cover letters. Their informality and personality inspired me to write a more engaging cover letter for the type of job I turned down that has gotten me lots of interviews recently, a well as a very non-academic, narrative-style piece for my new job’s “personal statement.” It felt risky but clearly paid off.

    Now it feels so, so good to stop spending all my free time refreshing job boards and writing cover letters. But I know I will have to be very conscious about my next job search due to the hard end date. How do those of you who work full time and have busy family lives keep yourselves connected and prepared for the next step in your career?

    1. AnotherTeacher*

      I don’t have a good answer for your question but want to congratulate you on your offer and decision!

  72. Joshua*

    Happy Birthday, Alison! I hope it is fabulous :)

    This is more of rant/trying to get something off of my chest because I’m just really frustrated today and can’t talk about it at work.

    I’m in a new job – been here 6 months. The job that was sold to me in interviews is not the job I am currently doing. In part because it was a new job being created and they weren’t totally clear on what they wanted/they kept saying we could work together to iron it out. Lesson learned. I don’t like what I’m doing and I don’t fit into the culture here.

    In January one of my contacts approached me. She recognized I had a new job, but said that she would really like me to come work for her if I was interested. For the last several months we’ve had phone calls, in person meetings, lunches, and the like. We are supposed to meet next week and I’m hoping it is something more concrete to go off of – finally!

    HOWEVER, my boyfriend’s company is going through some major changes. He has a highly specialized skill set and there isn’t another employer in this area that he could work at. I don’t think he’ll be laid off. But, it’s possible he won’t like his job when all of the changes are done and that would escalate our time table for moving from this city.

    That makes me feel like I’m in a bind. I don’t like my job, but I just started. I would REALLY LOVE this new opportunity. But, because of the uncertainty I don’t feel like I should risk taking it. I also don’t feel like I can look for jobs in the “new” city, because that also may not come to pass. So, I basically just feel unable to do anything at all. Anyone else ever felt stuck?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Any shot you can talk to your contact about the job and see how they’d feel about you coming on board for 6 months or so and then moving to another location?

      There are people who we’d have back for 6 months if that was all they had to give us.

      Otherwise, I’d proceed as if you don’t know what the future holds, and you’re going to go on the only thing you can – you don’t like where you are now, and you have a good opportunity that you would regret passing up *if you end up not moving* (at least that sounds like where you are).

  73. Savannah*

    I need some help with team dynamics. Our team runs a center that provides specific services to our larger institution and also to outside clients. We are a 4 person team, two hourly employees who admin and coordinate most of the day to-day at the center respectively, our salaried director who oversees everything and sits in on many institutional meetings, boards and projects and myself, a salaried coordinator who oversees the curriculum and project design to the center. The two hourly teammates and myself are all lateral to each other and we all report to the director. I also sit on a number of institutional meetings and boards, sometimes as a representative of our director and sometimes for my own job duties. My director is not a great communicator and the two hourly employees often express frustration that they are the last to know about projects or events that they will have to directly handle. I do often know about upcoming projects and proposals due to the meetings I attend and also because my director and I sit in offices next to each other and often check in multiple times a day about our various meetings and work. Our teammates sit in the center itself and are not included in the hallway and impromptu conversations. This dynamic is exacerbated by the fact that my mother is the head of a partner center and fairly renown in our field and is mentoring my director. Additionally I am in my mid-twenties with no children and available for lots of last minute over 40-hour a week meetings and opportunities while my teammates are not. This has caused some resentment towards me from them and I am trying to rebuild and be aware of these relationships.
    The three of us have tried to put in systems that project proposals go through the coordinator so we can all discuss them at our weekly meetings-which our director sometimes subverts. I am also trying to cc the whole team on most communication and forwarding my teammates emails that the director is only sending to me but I am wary to undercut him. I have been having lunch more with these teammates and also openly talking to them about the team communication challenges and that seems to help some but they are still distrustful of the director and my relationship as it affects their work. Any advice would be helpful!

  74. Scotty Smalls*

    I had such a strange interview this week I just had to share.

    I interviewed for a senior teapot maker position back in early Feb. The phone interview went great until it came to salary. I asked for something in line for the going rate for our industry. This position manages four people as well. Never heard a word back from them…until this week.

    A recruiter from an outside vendor contacted me around 11:30 and wanted to speak to me that afternoon. I set up a time to talk. She asked me a few questions and then about salary. I asked for the same range as before.

    I then asked her why the position was open. (Note: This is a different person than i talked to back in Feb.) She said the position had been vacant for 6-8 weeks, which tells me the person they hired left after a month. I then asked about the challenges of this dept and she went on and on about how the VP of teapot making is terrible to work for, how demanding he is, etc. Keep in mind – the company hired this outside firm to help find candidates because they cant find quality ones on their own.

    I couldnt get off the phone fast enough. I got an email this morning letting me know that Im no longer in the running. Im heartbroken. ;)

    1. ASJ*

      At least the recruiter was honest with you. Seriously, though, sounds like this company needs to fire the VP of teapot making and hire someone else if they ever expect to successfully fill that position!

    2. SophieChotek*

      Good for you. Not so great for recruiter–need to find a more diplomatic way of expressing it. I think Allison has suggested some ideas in the past. Bullet dodged.

      1. Ama*

        It almost makes me wonder if the VP is so terrible the recruiting company is regretting taking them on as a client.

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      Weird interview sympathy. Last summer I interviewed with a woman who condescendingly asked me how old I was (20s) and she proceeded to drone on about how she has nothing against young people (then why ask the question???), dismiss the fact that I needed to be home in the evenings by a certain time for class while telling me that her office’s hours were unbalanced/unpredictable, and offer me a lower hourly figure than was advertised in the posting she wrote herself.

      Consider it a bullet dodged!

  75. My Tea Pot*

    Been at a new company since January. In June I’m moving to a similar role in a different department, due to budgeting. I’m a regional specialist now, but when the new manager originally provided me with the job description, it was for a senior global specialist. I was planning on asking if the pay would increase, but speaking with HR yesterday to finalize the details, they are claiming that Senior Global was the original opening, but they’re just laterally moving me, so the pay is the same.

    Should I probe further with my new manager? I feel like I have less power because it was ‘due to budget’, but I also feel like they’re already saving by moving me and it was a little dishonest to present me with the Senior job description.

    This is my first time at a company where I moved internally and I’m not sure how to approach it, or just accept it?

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I’m confused as to how a global position is a lateral move from a regional position. By definition, doesn’t the global position have more responsibility and more reach than a regional one?”

      Unless what they’re really saying is “We hired you as a regional specialist at the senior global rate because we knew we’d be making this move and wanted you in now.”

      1. My Tea Pot*

        That is my thinking too.

        For your second point, basically my current department and my new department each had a vacancy but budget cuts were going to eliminate many headcounts. To make everyone happy, I am filling the new department’s role, which allows my current department to fill their other vacancy as well.

        So it’s more like we can save even more by moving you to this senior position we wanted to fill, at a discount rate. :/

        1. animaniactoo*

          Is there a reason you didn’t push back at the time? If you’ve already accepted the new position, I’d say you’re probably too late to ask for a raise now, but in maybe 6 months you could say something along the lines of “I know this was positioned as a lateral move, but since being in the position, I am handling X duties which are a significantly higher level of responsibility. I believe industry standard for that is around $Y, and as I have been able to increase/decrease [_______] to the company’s benefit, I would like to know if we could move me up closer to that range.”

          1. My Tea Pot*

            It has all been completely informal, and wasn’t really an offer so much as, ‘this is what the plan is’. My only meeting regarding it was with my current manager, future manager, and future manager’s boss so it was a little intimidating to bring up money at that time, but it ended up being the only time it was discussed.

            That said, I haven’t signed any paperwork, so I’d like to speak to the new manager Monday to try to clear it up, these things just don’t come naturally to me.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Ah, I think you’re totally still in time to push back then, starting with asking them to explain why this is a lateral move in their eyes, as it would seem to be otherwise given what you would be handling.

              I’d see about doing whatever research you can over the weekend about how this role difference is handled in comparable situations in the industry/related industries, and what the average salary difference is.

              Question: Are you comfortable with jobhunting if they push back hard and make it clear that they’re essentially going to take advantage of you in the way that it appears to you that they are doing?

  76. Nervous Accountant*

    kinda sorta venting here. I started noticing a few months ago that whenever I talked to Ricky, Fred and Ethel were snickering in the corner and exchanging looks. I took a chance and confided in Lucy and she told me she sensed the same so that made me feel less crazy. Then again….maybe I heard it here, you can be paranoid and right, right?

    Most of the time I love this place, but then toxic shit like this annoys me. It was even worse last year and the worst of it is gone but it lingers in small doses like this. I can’t even imagine the conversation I’d have w my manager……

    “Hey Wilma, whenever I talk to Ricky, Barney’s best friend Ethel is always smirking or laughing quietly with Fred.”

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      Don’t go to your manager with this. It’s not affecting your or their work and, as has been pointed out before, you’ll look like you can’t manage your own interpersonal relationships.

      If you catch them in the act, you can always look at them with genuine confusion and ask if you missed a joke. Zero snark or judgment; that’s critical. There are a lot of things you can get away with saying and asking if you can feign sincerity well enough. That would put them on notice that they’re not as discreet as they may think they are.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Nahhh I’d never go to my manager with this. My point was, that conversation would be so ridiculous that I just laughed to make myself feel better.. :/
        You’re right, it’s not affecting me or my work, it’s just a major roll eye moment and moving on.

  77. 3D Queen*

    Any advice from teachers (or public speakers) out there? I’m a TA and my awesome boss asked me if I can fill in and teach his class for him while he’s out of town in a couple weeks. I’m really excited and also terrified! I know the material well, and I’ve been with the students for 7 weeks already (it’s a 12 person class), but how do I get over my nerves? The discussion and critique part of class doesn’t much scare me, it’s the lecture part that’s keeping me up. He’s asked me to record audio of the class (not as weird as it seems, he has to hear the discussion so he can tailor his critiques in the next week), but I tense up when I know people are listening in. I really want to get into the teaching end of things – I don’t want to blow this because I lacked confidence. Thanks!

    1. The Bread Burglar*

      Set it to record and then pretend it isn’t there.

      You know the students and the material so just try to stay engaged in giving them the presentation in a way you think will help them learn. Because ultimately you are there to teach them. And I am betting unless you teach something wrong, or say something outrageously inappropriate your boss isn’t likely to get angry or upset so its not really a risk of “blowing it.” The most likely outcome is your boss listens and gives you some feedback on your speed of talking, or tells you to be more confident presenting, etc.

      Depending on your personality and your relationship with the class then you could consider breaking the ice by joking about the fact that he isn’t there. I found when I subbed for others that making a joke about it put us all at ease.

      But relax if you know the students and material its going to go fine. Unless they are like 2 year olds (which I highly doubt) but if they are then run. They can smell fear.

        1. 3D Queen*

          This is great, I am a very jokey person, so I love that idea. Thanks! The students are undergrads, but it’s a generally quiet class and I’m terrified of silence. Do you think it would be helpful to record myself giving the lecture as practice, or will I just psych myself out more?

          1. AnotherTeacher*

            Sure, why not – to recording a practice run. When I was teaching more, practicing lectures (sans recording) helped me “hear”where I paused too much, where I might want to throw in more examples, where I sounded less confident and thus needed to review the material more, etc.

  78. The Bread Burglar*

    Got a new job. Been here 2 weeks now and it’s great.

    Except we are allowed to play music in the back room (no headphones) when filing stuff. Scanning. Admin stuff. Which takes a few hours a day.

    One of my new colleagues listens to gospel music, Christian hip hop and sometimes actual sermons. I am okay with him referencing God in his comments (think “God has a plan for everyone” and “God will bless you with what you need most” type stuff). I can ignore that because I know most of it comes from a good place and I don’t want to try and change him as a person.

    But the music and especially the Sermons is too much for me. Today I was updating reference files and he was listening to a sermon about how we are all sinners and need to change our ways and God needs to be the focus of everything. It is really too much for me but I am new and don’t want to cause problems.

    How do I convey my discomfort about this without causing rifts? I also don’t want to get all music banned. Help!

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      I’m not sure about the music, which would annoy me too, but I think you could address the sermons without addressing the religious aspect of it by making it about talking being more distracting than music. Something like, “Hey, Boyd, can you find some music to listen to instead of the sermons? Having music in the background helps me focus, but I find sermons and talk radio more distracting.”

      Obviously you’d then have to have the same conversation if someone switched to any talk radio, otherwise it would probably become A Problem.

      1. The Bread Burglar*

        The music did bother me at first. But then after like 2 days he started the sermons and now I am just relieved when it isn’t big preachy sermons.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Do you get to choose the music part of the time too? If not, you should request at least that.

      2. QualityControlFreak*

        My co-irker plays talk radio. At the front desk. Every day. I work in the next cubical back. I find it extremely obnoxious. I like to listen to classical music. When I arrive at the office first and turn on music, they come in and immediately crank up the talk radio. I agree that hearing people speaking is much more distracting than music and it’s really not ideal when one of the duties of that position is to answer the phones. :/

    2. SophieChotek*

      Or couldn’t he just listen to it with headphones instead? And that way you could both listen to whatever you wanted?

      1. SophieChotek*

        I know you said no headphones…but if it annoys you could you suggest it anyway? Otherwise, yes, maybe dividing music?

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I like the suggestion of making it about the talking vs. the music. Also, this would drive me batty (even the music). Rap, country, and gospel are the only three kinds of music I literally cannot stand. Bluegrass I can deal with for a short time.

      1. QualityControlFreak*

        I was the only one in my office Friday, so that afternoon after most of the staff was gone I got to crank up Tower of Power and get funky in my empty workspace.

  79. SL #2*

    I actually have a question this week! I’ve been lurking on the Friday open threads lately…

    We do reviews in the summer and I hit my 1-year mark last month. During last year’s review period, it was my 3-month review and everything was fine, but since I was new then, a lot of things will be different this time, including the expectation that I need to rewrite my job description to reflect the past year.

    I plan on using the new JD as a stepping stone for negotiating a raise (my responsibilities in particular have grown way beyond the original scope), but I’m having a lot of trouble figuring out how much to ask for. I’m being paid 4k below the median rate in my area for my job, but that’s a 10% jump if I were to ask for it, which seems… awfully high to me. So what’s a reasonable percentage to ask for? I’ve never done this before and I’m nervous about it, but I know my boss and I know that she wouldn’t hold it against me at all even if I bungle it… so I guess the risk factor is low.

    1. animaniactoo*

      FWIW, the first time I asked for a raise, I hadn’t been prepared to give a number of how much I was looking for. I was definitely doing things beyond the scope of what I’d been hired to do, and when the owner of the company, in the middle of a meeting with some other people, asked me to give him a number “on that thing we were talking about before” I blurted out a number that was a 20% raise. He said “Okay” and that was it. I mean – he said okay so fast and easy it left me wondering if I should have asked for more.

      If what you’re doing now genuinely justifies asking for an increase of 10% – that’s a merit based raise, not a COL one which is an entirely different thing – then there’s nothing inappropriate at all about asking for it.

      1. SL #2*

        True, true– I guess I’m suffering from… a bit of imposter syndrome? My team is basically a bunch of subject matter experts with masters’ degrees, while my bachelor’s degree is in something totally unrelated. I wasn’t hired to be an SME, but being around a team of them is making me look harder at what I’ve accomplished in my one year (which is actually a lot, now that I think about it). You’re right; I need to start looking at this through a merit raise lens rather than a COL one. We certainly have the budget for raises this year…

        Thanks for helping me to think out loud!

  80. Bagworm*

    I am getting a promotion (yay!) to a manager position. I have been with this organization/department for three years and in my current role for 1.5. One of the people I will be managing also applied for the position (it was an internal only opportunity). He has about 20 years’ experience in the department. The promotion’s not been announced yet but he has been informed and I know he is very disappointed. After the official announcement, I know I need to have a conversation with him but I’m not sure what to say. Any suggestions?

    1. MissGirl*

      I recently read a book called “Difficult Conversations,” which is very helpful in outlining ways to handle these situations. However, one thing it advises is to ask yourself if the conversation even needs to happen of if you’re making a bigger deal out of something than it is. Why do you need to have the conversation? What do you hope to accomplish?

      If I was this guy and you came to me apologetic and sympathetic, I might be a little peeved you didn’t trust me to handle myself like an adult. Of course, he’s disappointed but that isn’t your problem to manage, it’s his. Allow him the opportunity to behave appropriately. If he can’t, then have the conversation. Also, don’t feel guilty although its good you’re considerate of him. Congratulations on your promotion.

      1. Bagworm*

        Thanks for the book recommendation. My boss has said I need to sit down and have a conversation with him but I think you’re absolutely right that I can and should come at it with the presumption that he will behave as a professional adult so maybe I can find a different focus for that conversation.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      I would argue that you aren’t the right person to have a conversation with him. Whoever made the decision and chose you over him should have a conversation with him and outline how he is valued by the organization, assuming he is, and what other opportunities might open in the future or perhaps what he could do differently going forward to make himself a better candidate for internal promotion. I think you should assume that he will behave as a professional and continue to do his job.

      If he has been there 20 years, and you’ve been there 3, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t want to hear anything you have to say. He is understandably disappointed, but hearing from you isn’t going to help. If it were me, it would just piss me off. I’d want to hear from management about why they made the decision they made and what I could do differently to better my chances in the future.

    3. fposte*

      I agree with Former Retail–there’s no need for you to talk to him unless behavior suggests a need. I think it’s a conversation that feels like a generous reaching out but is actually pretty unpleasant on his end and needless on yours. Trust him to be a professional about this and accept that this stuff just happens.

  81. bb-great*

    I’m carpooling to and from a conference with a coworker in a few weeks. Any tips or anecdotes (good or bad!) about long car rides with coworkers?

    1. TCO*

      I usually dread this but it’s always worked out just fine for me. Sometimes it’s even pretty fun. Do your part to be low-maintenance: moderate your beverage consumption so that you don’t need hourly bathroom breaks, be flexible about meals and stops, don’t eat or wear anything too heavily scented, don’t insist on loud or polarizing music choices, etc.

      I’ve found it also helps to have some small-talk conversation topics planned in advance. Ask them about their recent vacation, how they got into the job they have, their kids, their neighborhood, their favorite work projects, etc.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      I had to drive my boss around recently and it wasn’t a long trip but it was mid-day city traffic which I am normally SUPER tense about. I thought it was going to be 2x as tense but somehow with my boss in the car I was totally calm. Unsurprising really because I obviously would not want her to see me white-knuckling in bumper to bumper traffic…

      I hope you and your coworker like the same kind of music!

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      So, incidentally, if you need a good road trip soundtrack, the BB-8 playlist on Spotify is spot on and has a little bit of something for everyone.

  82. the_scientist*

    My best work friend is leaving, and I’m kind of sad about it. I’m happy for her because I know the new job is exactly what she wants to be doing, but I’m really going to miss her. I have a great group of colleagues, but it’s nice to have at least one person that you really connect with on a personal level.

    Also, several of my grad school classmates have announced that they are starting PhDs in the fall and I’m being hit with a SERIOUS case of FOMO. I like my job, I feel like leadership here sees me as valuable, I’m being “groomed” for leadership with training and mentorship, and I just really like having a regular (decent) paycheque. But I know that without a PhD, I’ll never be an “expert” or scientific authority and sometimes I miss the academic mindset of “knowledge for the sake of knowledge” (and then I remember how annoying that is in a public health context, when you also need to create change.)

  83. Sad and anon for this*

    I found out this week that I need to leave my job. I left a job a couple of years ago because a bunch of my coworkers ganged up on me and were trying to get me fired. I tried to keep my head down and do my job, but it just got worse and worse and I had to leave or I would have eventually been fired. I vowed that I would learn my lesson and be friends with everyone at my new job, and up until now, I thought they actually liked me, but this week was a turning point that was a flashback to the job I left. It’s only one person right now, but I have seen in the past how quickly it can snowball, and how bad it can get, and I have to get out before it gets to that point. What really sucks is that I saw a really promising job posting a few weeks ago, but I decided not to apply because I thought things were going well for me here and I should stick around here a couple more years. Go figure.

    1. LisaLee*

      There will always be points of friction between coworkers and personalities that don’t mesh. Can you be more specific about what’s happening? Maybe you’re just still feeling on-edge and jumpy from your last job?

      1. Sad and anon for this*

        A coworker made a false accusation against me, to my manager, and my manager pulled me out of work and took me to HR to have a meeting about it. Parts of the story were true but taken completely out of context to make me look bad, and other parts were just made up, or possibly misunderstood. The complaint was anonymous but I am 99% sure I know who made it, and I had no idea she had a problem with me. She is a new employee and I have spent a LOT of time helping her and showing her how to do things, and I recently did a personal (non-work-related) favor for her. I feel really betrayed but I am also mad at myself for getting a clean slate and then ruining everything again. Why can’t I just get along with people?

        The sad thing is, I knew something was up, and I told myself not to worry about it because I was just being paranoid because of what happened at my old job. I reassured myself that this is why I picked up my life and moved, so I wouldn’t have to worry about randomly getting called into the manager’s office for a reprimand for something I didn’t do. So I wouldn’t have to wonder when a coworker asks for a private meeting with the manager if it’s to accuse me of something. So I wouldn’t have to be looking over my shoulder all the time wondering when the other shoe is going to drop.

        1. fposte*

          You can’t people-proof your life, though, even in a different place. The way you don’t worry about people meeting with the manager isn’t to be sure it won’t happen but to develop skills to deal with it when it does.

          What exactly does your manager say about the situation? Does she think this is a big problem that has shaken her confidence in you, or did she need to make sure she did the right thing about a complaint, and now she’s moving forward?

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This. I wouldn’t run just yet–it’s possible Manager had to jump through some HR hoops but now sees new employee’s shenanigans for what they are.

            Give it a little more time. Also, coworkers don’t necessarily have to be your BFFs for you to work well together. All you have to be is pleasant, polite, and professional. Three P’s*

            *Alison, if that’s not already a thing you can steal it

        2. animaniactoo*

          I promise you, this does not always end up with you as the loser in this situation.

          About 2 years ago, we had a newer employee – similar situation, I’d gone out of my way to be welcoming and helpful to her – and in the end, she plain did not like me. She complained about me directly to my boss and to the owner of the company and I had to defend myself. But the thing is – she ended up with egg all over her face. Badly. And she kept trying with the same result. In the meantime, she managed to offend several other employees, and she just looked worse and worse. Eventually she went out on maternity leave and never came back.

          I, if anything, increased my standing within the company, and my co-workers and then my boss had my back the whole way.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Which is to say – every time I was proven to be right about the situation, she got new egg on her face.

            It IS possible to defend yourself and end up having people ganging up on your side when faced with this kind of stuff, rather than against you.

      2. fposte*

        Oh, so well put, LisaLee. Sad, I think you’ve made a big leap about how things will go when there’s friction, but they don’t usually go like that, and I don’t think you can keep moving in hopes of finding a friction-free place. Can you talk to a therapist to get you through the rough patch? I think finding a way to self-soothe and get a more balanced view of the possibilities would serve you better for the moment than finding a new job.

        And I’m sorry you’re having a rough time. That’s no fun.

    2. Anon Moose*

      I’m confused. I don’t know about coworkers ganging up on you to get you fired, but I don’t think you should assume that is going to happen everywhere? That sounds, frankly, not what happens normally unless we’re missing some huge information. And how much control do coworkers (vs. bosses) have over hiring/firing decisions anyway. People work with people they don’t like all the time. Unlikely for that person to try to get someone fired unless they are really demonstrably inappropriate or offensive ( Why don’t they like you? Any merit to it?) or if they are bad at their job. Why do you think that their liking you is going to affect your job?
      Also, the really promising job opening may still be open, or others like it.

      1. Sad and anon for this*

        How much control do coworkers have over people getting fired? More than you would think. I used to believe that, too, which is why I thought I could stick it out at my old job, but it turns out that if enough people who don’t like you join forces, they can make your life a living hell. When they go running to the manager to complain about you every time they don’t like something you say, or your tone of voice, or the expression on your face, you start to look like a problem employee, and the more accusations are made, the more easily they are believed.

        The job posting I saw is closed (it was the first thing I checked when I got home from work that day). I probably wouldn’t have gotten it anyway, but it just sucks that this happens right when I was thinking things are going well here and I don’t need to be job searching.

        2. MM*

          Can you be proactive and go to HR to discuss this in more detail to find out what you can do in the future to avoid this issue? I think if you say this has happened at a different workplace before and that some (or all) of what your coworker went to HR about was true, then you need to look at your actions and figure out a way to address them moving forward. Otherwise it might just happen at the next work place. If its something about your tone or expression, you might not be able to change that, but opening a dialogue so that people don’t take what you have no control over as conflict might help

  84. MissGirl*

    I just finished my first year as an MBA, and I have an internship lined up to begin in a few weeks. This internship is with a well-known, prestigious company and will provide good experience. Another company I targeted as wanting to work at post-graduation contacted me about a phone interview with a recruiter for an internship next week. I will have to accept the first internship before the interview.

    Company A’s internship is more directly related to my field (marketing analytics), but it’s not one I would work at after graduation due to location. Company B is one I would love to work at but the particular position is more traditional marketing. What do I do about the interview scheduled? I really want to make the connection with the recruiter to possibly intern in the fall when I’m back in school but will this set her against me? Am I upfront about accepting the other offer or do I wait until they possibly offer it to me? I could rescind on the first offer but that doesn’t feel right and I think the experience there would be better for my career.

    1. justsomeone*

      I would go with A. Just because the company isn’t the one you want to work for after the internship doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take it. Internships are about connections, yes, but they’re also about getting direct experience. If Company A’s internship will give you better direct experience, do that one!

    2. it happens*

      You do not want to burn a bridge with Company B – call the recruiter ASAP and tell her that you’ve just accepted another internship and you are still very interested in Company B in the future, or even the fall.

  85. T3k*

    Attended my first summit/conference yesterday and it went pretty well. Felt like a bit of an outsider though as everyone around me seemed to have come with coworkers, fellow students, or well ingrained in the industry already so it was like a reunion for them. I did talk to a couple of the speakers though and met a few other individuals.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Next year you’ll run into the people you met and won’t feel like such an outsider.

  86. Wendy Darling*

    I’ve been in my new job for 6 weeks and I’m already planning my exit strategy. This isn’t good, is it.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        It’s a lot of things. Something about my manager puts me really on edge — she “teases” her other direct reports in a way that I would not be okay with, and I can’t tell if that’s just their relationship or if there is in fact an underlying catty vindictiveness going on. She’s also made a few comments about things I “could” do if I “want” that I am beginning to suspect actually mean “DO THIS THING”.

        I work remote/from home and I HATE it. I’ve been working on solutions to this but so far none of them have worked for me.

        The more I learn about how the company does its work the less I like it. It involves hiring huge numbers of independent contractors, and I’m really not thrilled with how they’re treated. I also don’t think they SHOULD be independent contractors — if you spend as much time as we spend worrying about how to not have them classified as employees, they’re probably misclassified. I also feel like most of what we do is figuring out how to wring the most money out of our clients with the minimum amount of work/expenditure on our end, and are only concerned with quality to the extent that low quality gets us in hot water with clients.

        I’m the only person with my title (or in my field) in the entire company and no one there understands what I do. And yesterday I was told that early next week I’m meeting with a senior VP to basically prove my salary is a good investment (?!).

        The good points, however, are REALLY good — because I am the only person with my title and no one knows wtf I’m doing, I get to choose the tools and methodologies I use and the company adopts them because no one has any better ideas. So I’ve deliberately chosen to use tools and methods that I wanted experience with and are extremely marketable. I have the exact job title I wanted and I am spending my week doing relevant work for that title. We do consulting (turns out I hate consulting) and our clients include a laundry list of companies I would like to work for in the future. Oh and I get 4 weeks of PTO a year. And they’ll pay for training so I might be able to do some online courses on their dime.

        So basically my current plan is to stay for a year, spend that year doing things that will look amazing on my resume, and then start judiciously applying only for those jobs I really want. On the plus side being a remote worker will make it easy…

  87. Knights who say KNEE*

    As I’m writing this, I had a phone interview with a 3rd party recruiter scheduled 30 minutes ago. No call came, so I emailed him and asked would it be better to reschedule. He replied and asked for 30 more minutes wait time – 1 hour after our appointment. But I actually have a SKYPE interview 30 minutes soon after THAT, and that 2nd interview is for a better job.
    So, knowing this 1st interview is a vetting interview, and it could be rather quick, I said I can wait a bit, but told him of my next appointment, and with his advisement I can reschedule, even if for later today (I took the day off for interviews and job search).
    Haven’t heard back yet…did I do wrong?

    1. The Bread Burglar*

      Wrong? No. Unless you told him “I have an interview for a better job” at which point yes. But I doubt you said that.

      Did you say you could wait for a bit or did you give him a timescale of how long you can wait? Because giving a time like “Thats understandable. I am available for another xx minutes and then have another appointment.” would be ideal. But if you said a bit that should still be okay. Some interviewers get upset if they hear you have another interview. That however is unlikely and is a sign they are idiots. Companies want to hire good strong candidates and good strong candidates of course will have other offers.

      The most likely scenario is that whatever is keeping him busy so he couldn’t make your original time is still keeping him busy. Wait to see if he contacts you. If he doesn’t in time then put it out of your mind. When you are going into you skype interview put your phone to airplane or do not disturb so that he can’t interupt it. Have your skype interview as normal and worry about the phone interview after. But most likely something unforseen has just come up.

      1. Knights who say KNEE*

        Well, it sounded like he was genuinely busy. We started 1 hour late. It was 20 minutes long, and it went OK, not great, but it was a fact-gathering interview, after all. The details I heard weren’t impressing me too much, but as I’m unemployed, I can’t be that choosy.
        10 minutes later I had the Skype interview. I KILLED it. She’s shortlisting me (her words). And it pays more.
        Thanks for your help!

  88. stk*

    Happy birthday Alison! Thankyou for doing this and making it such a great resource.

    My work feelings this week are conflicted. I got a secondment to a position I am loving in a field I’ve been looking for a way into that is very different from what I’d been doing before. A month in, I’ve been told it’s extremely likely to lead to a permanent post. All is fantastic… except that we’ve just found out that we may be moving the company. And if we do, my lovely, lovely job will probably be a lovely, lovely job with a HIDEOUS commute. It’s not definite yet, but it sounds highly unlikely that we’ll be in the same building at Christmas. And the proposed new building is just awful to get to for me.

    I don’t want to ditch a brilliant job in a field I’ve only just moved into. But I really do not deal well with terrible commutes, as I have learned from hard experience. I’ve looked at Alison’s good advice about asking to work remotely and I think I’d have a good case, but I’m not sure how it would come over when I’m so new. I also feel like it’s a bit whiny when my job does involve quite a bit of travel, so it’s not like I’m in the office every single day. I’m just there enough that a terrible commute would wreck my quality of life. Does anyone have any good thoughts?

  89. Amber Rose*

    I have two directly conflicting tasks.

    1) work on pre-qualifications within their usually fairly tight deadlines.

    2) Answer phones/take orders.

    Why do these conflict? Because of [string of expletives] Open Office. Management hates MS Office so we use Open Office. Open Office will not open .docx. Pre-quals are inevitably sent as .docx questionnaires. I can open them on the manufacturing computer, which has word, but then I can’t answer phones. Even if there was a phone there, I can’t access inventory or my email so I would be useless for answering questions.

    I don’t get to have Word. It’s pricey, management bias intervenes and the collapse of our industry requires we pinch pennies. So I’m running back and forth and everything sucks.

    /rant

    22 days until vacation…

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      It’s still inconvenient, but can you use a file converter to change the docx files to something readable in open office? At least then you don’t have to leave your desk.

    3. Observer*

      Open Office should open DOCX files – you may have to download a converter, though. If I’m wrong about that, get LibreOffice – it’s also free uses the same ODF format as OO, so you won’t have a problem internally. And it most definitely DOES read DOCX files.

    4. Mander*

      Is your OO installation up to date? I use LibreOffice (basically the newest version of OO) all the time to edit .docx files, including forms, comments, track changes, and other complicated stuff and the only thing that ever causes me problems is when people use the equation editor. It seems strange that you’re having such trouble with it.

    5. Anonumously*

      You should upgrade your program. Open Office should be able to open .docx files, you’ll just have to save them in the OO format.

  90. Infinity*

    A coworker is fairly loud about his upcoming promotion to GS-14 (federal employee here). Awesome for you coworker.
    But… now he keeps trying to delegate responsibilities and is asserting himself as *my* supervisor. Which, is no where near the truth of how we operate. We’re equals. In fact, I’ll be receiving the same promotion as him at the same time (I just don’t have the inclination to tell everyone and their mom it’s happening). Even more, we’re on separate teams within our department, we each report to a separate GS-15 (public knowledge, in our org chart–and he has apparent knowledge of this through his intentional switch from my team to a different team). His requests are aren’t collaboration requests, but clear delegation of responsibilities that should remain with him, or be re-delegated by his GS-15.
    My concern is co-worker’s assertion of supervisory status is extending to more than just me–he’s doing this with other people that he does not supervise. He supervises no one, same as me. These promotions do not change that, right now at least. Coworker has already been reminded that he can’t just assign them work. And he still tries to do so with them and me.
    So, do I start a conversation with Awesome Supervisor (above the GS-15s) to alert him on what is going on (I know with 100% certainty it is both appropriate and proper for me to raise this with Awesome Supervisor and not my GS-15)? OR, do I remind co-worker that all our work goes through the GS-15s, including re-delegations and see if that fixes the problem?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      Also a fed here….I love that we seem to promote a whole slew of nutbags. Not you, clearly, but my gosh there is no shortage. I wonder if this person is someone in my office? LOL. Seriously though, sorry about your co-worker. I’d tell the co-worker first and let him know that he really needs to stop with his actions or you will address it with Awesome Supervisor, obviously not in those words, unless you wanna take it there. If he keeps it up, tell the supervisor.

      1. Infinity*

        Thank you! I’ll have to figure out how to handle this. He doesn’t take feedback very well, which is why I was hoping the other route would be endorsed–even though deep down I knew it wasn’t the first step. He’s the kind of person who just needs to leave public service. His number one complaint is “the demands here are too much.” To which I usually spit out my coffee and give him the “say what?!” face. He brags about all his interviewing, yet, (not surprising to me) no one in the private sector wants him…

    2. Rocky*

      So he’s already been “reminded” about it and he’s still doing it? At that point I don’t think it’s at all overly confrontational to say, “You’ll have to go through Awesome Supervisor on that one.”

  91. Mary (in PA)*

    Does anyone have experience in/advice for dealing with difficult personalities in volunteer organizations?

    I got elected to be region secretary in our local embroidery guild region. This position is part of the region executive board, so it’s pretty prestigious (I put it on my resume under “Volunteer Work,” for example). I take minutes at the twice-yearly meetings, call for votes in between meetings, and prepare packets of information for each of the meetings. Basically, I’m a major point of contact for most of the representatives for each chapter — they probably hear from me more than they hear from anyone else on the executive board, and as a result, board members may feel more comfortable talking with me than with someone else they might not know well.

    The issue I keep running into is that certain board members don’t respond to my emails (even though I’ve said very clearly, at meetings and in the emails themselves, that I need to hear from them for voting and for other major points of discussion), and that I am faced with three board members with VERY strong personalities who like to nitpick everything that I do. (One of these difficult members is also the organization’s national Vice President and has been an overwhelming force in our region for YEARS.) For example, though I have an MA in professional writing and have been working as a technical writer and editor for over ten years, I was chastised for changing the format of the meeting minutes to make them clearer and easy to read, just because it was a different format that the strong members weren’t used to seeing.

    An additional point (that may not matter, maybe I’m just being paranoid) is that I am at least 30 years younger than most of the board members. (For example, one of the board members called me before the last meeting and asked me to explain how to attach a file to email.) I suspect some of these issues may be occurring because I’m younger and the older members may think, “Oh, she’s so young, those kids today don’t know anything about anything.”

    I can’t fire anyone, because it’s a volunteer organization; but I’m tired of getting picked at during meetings for things that I can’t control (like board members not replying to my emails). The only thing with which I can console myself is that this is a three-year position with no renewal and I’m already a year into it. Should I just suck it up for the next two years, or is there something I can do to make things less intolerable in the meantime?

    1. the_scientist*

      No advice, just lots of sympathy. I’m involved in a volunteer organization that’s incredibly dysfunctional and it sounds like there are a few commonalities with your situation: a lot of the leadership are older, have been in leadership roles in the organization for decades, and have no interest in change. They are also very clear (in their actions, not their words), that they aren’t interested in the opinions of younger members. doubly so if those members are female. The same people rotate through executive positions so there’s never any “new blood”, and there are no term limits- so there are people who have been VPs in this org for, literally, decades. I’m not in a leadership role, so I’m able to roll my eyes and deal with it, plus membership in this org allows me to participate in a very expensive hobby at a significant discount. But I think at least once a week about quitting.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        Awww, thanks for your sympathy. I sympathize with you, too. I do think age has something to do with it — though everyone in this organization is female! And at least we have the option of term limits, though in practice, the leadership rotates around a small group who are invested in having things Their Way And No Other.

        I’m heading to the national seminar this year where I’m leading a session, along with the president and the dean of faculty, on what can be done to get more younger members to join the organization. I suspect the attendees will be mostly just me and my buddy (with whom I am rooming and who is around my age). But we have good ideas and plan to share them!

        I have thought about quitting, too. But I am determined not to let this beat me.

    2. AnotherTeacher*

      You need to suck it up. I’m sure that’s not what you want to hear, and I hope someone else has a more helpful suggestion. Unfortunately, I’ve found it very hard to affect change, or even offer honest feedback, when the leadership does not truly welcome it.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        I’m resigned to sucking it up, at this point. I will say that this entire experience makes me wary of volunteering for any kind of leadership position in the future, and that it actively discourages both young and new members from not only joining organizations like these, but also from being active in them…which is inherently terrible.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        Sure…but as the secretary, I have a responsibility to keep things in writing, especially if we’re voting on something like spending money.

        I said at the most recent meeting, “Either we’re going to do business by email, or we’re not,” and Strong Personality #1 said, “You don’t have the option to choose not to do business by email. Email is in our bylaws and we must abide by them.”

        1. Argh!*

          You can send the e-mail then call to inform the old-timers that they need to check their e-mail by xxx date.

    4. The Bread Burglar*

      I have worked as a secretary for a board on a non-profit. Never again.

      My personal feelings aside (grumble grumble grumble) twice-yearly while annoying doesn’t sound too bad so it might be worth sticking it out.

      That being said, I think some of these you may be able to mediate. For people not responding for votes between meetings the thing to do is at the next meeting. Raise that people still aren’t replying. Verify the email addresses are correct and that votes must be cast via email (if its an option to call you could do this though if they are the stronger more aggrivating members you don’t want to have to speak to then maybe not). And then chase them in the future with maybe 3 times. Number the requests “2 request for your .xxx” and then mark them as abstaining. If they complain advise them that it would be fraudulent, immoral and potentially illegal for you to select the vote for them so if they don’t send you a vote then they have to be marked as not voting. Then just stand your ground and keep repeating it if they try to chastise you for it.

      The calling you to ask how to attach the file might not have been because you are younger. It might actually be because as a panel secretary you probably have to do this regularly. If the board member asked you like 2 months before a meeting and it wasn’t related at all then that would be weird. But it wouldn’t be weird to ask a secretary in the office about doing it if that was something they should know how to do, and/or likely do often.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        Yeah, I can suck it up for two more years. It’s only twice-yearly, anyway. And it does look nice on my resume. :)

        I don’t mind chasing people for votes. It’s not usually the strong members — they wield Robert’s Rules and our bylaws like a bat and do abide by them, including getting back to me in the appropriate window of time for votes and approvals. The major issue that will be coming up is a vote to spend a substantial amount of money, which is one that I definitely want to be documented and conducted appropriately.

        I also don’t mind explaining how to attach a file to email to someone, even if I have to do it every time we have a meeting. The board member who asked me about that is one of the nicest people you will ever meet, and though it took half an hour to figure it out, she was a pro by the end and managed to send me three files in three separate emails. I admit, this was just an example to show the age gap that is present in this organization.

  92. Nice Things*

    Wondering how you get used to having nice things or if there are limits you place on yourself no matter what income level you reach?

    Background– I grew up in a weird economic/class situation where my dad’s family was actually for real wealthy at one point. They had nice furniture, crystal, silver, china, rugs, etc. The money ran out by the time I was born but I grew up with all the nice stuff surrounding me. I ate off of sterling silver forks every day of my life. But at the same time, we were on a strict budget. We weren’t allowed to buy shoes that cost more than $20. We shopped at thrift stores for clothes. I had all the “social training” for lack of a better term, to be able to do well in upper middle class situations, and went to a fancy expensive college on scholarship. Now I’m married, and my husband and I do well financially but still live a fairly modest lifestyle despite being able to afford more. There are some things I just have a really hard time getting past. Even though I can “pass” for upper middle class I still am hesitant to buy myself anything nice because it feels fake. I’m having a crisis at the idea of buying the nice car that I want and can afford because it seems like I’m trying to show off. Anyone else dealt with this?

    1. Argh!*

      When you retire, you will be able to travel to nice places, while people like me will live in HUD housing and work as a greeter at Wal-Mart.

    2. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

      The way my grandmother put it, was that most of us have to make choices in life. You can have a nice house or a nice car or lots of nights out or vacations, you just can’t have them all. Especially if you want to be comfortable in retirement. If the rest of your life is modest, you can afford the car, and it’s the splurge you really want, go for it.

    3. don't-wanna-manage*

      I think I understand. I grew up dirt poor, married, raised 2 kids, husband and I always lived paycheck to paycheck but we kept making more and more over the years, so we at least were middle class and not dirt poor anymore. Now we are empty nesters and making more in salary than we ever have. I would say we are definitely upper middle class. But, we don’t spend extravagantly. We have a modest home, 1 paid off car, 1 on a lease. We take a vacation now and then but no crazy far off destinations. We look at how other people we know spend their income (luxury cars, million dollar houses, lavish vacations, designer clothes) and we just…. can’t…. go there. I think it is our upbringing, honestly. I just cannot see spending $200 on a skirt when I can buy one for $29.99 at the mall and THAT is pushing it. LOL

    4. Rocky*

      When I started my career I was paid a living wage and that’s about it. There was a particular model of Lexus that a lot of women in my neighborhood drove, and to me it symbolized “I’ve made it.” I thought I’d buy one of those for myself one day, once I could afford it. Fast forward five years and I was making quite a bit of money and thinking about buying a new car. I could finally afford that Lexus, easily! But when I thought about the idea of spending that much money on a car, when I could buy one that serves the exact same purpose for less than half the price, I realized that I could never bring myself to do it. I was never going to be the person that spends that kind of money on a car. That got me started thinking more about the relationship of my personal values to how I spend money – I recommend the book Your Money or Your Life. At this point my husband and I could kind of buy whatever we want, and once in a while we do, but we drive a used Honda.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Yeah.

      I grew up middle-class in a small place. We weren’t rich, but my mum inherited a ranch home in a sort of suburb of her hometown that was pretty nice, and I grew up in this nice house, with piano lessons and ballet lessons and listening to classical music and also playing in the woods and making forts out of old tires, LOL. It was a bit incongruous, to say the least. But that’s a small town for you–I had one friend who was dirt poor and another who lived up the road from me and had a pool.

      When I left home, I ended up on subsistence wages. Even though I have a decent job (finally), my entire family (parents, siblings) all have better jobs, homes, and cars than I do. I would love to get back to that standard of living, but I don’t think I can do it on my own. If I could, I’d probably spend more on travel than anything else.

      It’s okay to have nice things now and then–I classify that not as jewels and Mercedes and original sculpture in your garden, just things that work and are well-made. I always like to say “I want a real house someday, not just a toy house!” It doesn’t have to be a mansion, just one that isn’t falling apart. If you have the means to be comfortable, there is NOTHING wrong with that. :)

      And it’s not showing off. Showing off would be Hyacinth Bucket making sure everyone knows about the nice things she has. I’m thinking you don’t do that.

    6. Anonumously*

      There’s nothing wrong with buying nice things on sale. Just bought another coach bag for only $25 from Bloomingdales. It’s doable. You feel like you’re being frugal but your still buying quality items.

  93. WTF seriously?*

    Any tips for dealing with a co-worker (peer) that is extremely difficult to work with? A little background. The person in my role was removed and the position given to me, not co-worker. Co-worker was almost let go because of their incompetence, but higher ups kept them on. At every chance, co-worker provides me incorrect information or refuses to provide requested information at all. Co-worker butts into situations they aren’t involved and is extremely petty. My immediate supervisor has had several discussions with co-worker, but there are no consequences, because the higher ups (several rungs up the ladder) won’t allow it. My big boss and others have commented that co-worker is actively trying to sabotage me; clawing and grasping at straws and doing anything they can to try and make me look bad (which they aren’t having any luck with, but has become extremely annoying). I know they aren’t going to let co-worker go or make their behavior change, so I need tips on dealing with this person for the next few months before I’m out of here. Help!

    1. AVP*

      Do you absolutely have to interact with this person? Is there any way to get your work done without them?

      1. WTF seriously?*

        Most of the time no, I can completely avoid co-worker, but a few times a week, we have to interact because the job requires us to. I’m professional when we do, but getting the same thing in return is like pulling teeth!

        1. Infinity*

          I second the document everything, and just CYA for everything too. It sounds like this person won’t give up so you’re just going to have to keep doing what you’re doing because it sounds like your supervisor, big boss, and others are not fooled by this person. Each time you receive information from this coworker, memorialize it in a way that brings someone else in and don’t let this person lose ownership of the (incorrect) information that was given. “Fred, when we spoke, you mentioned X,Y,Z and we decided we would do. A. Sally, can you help us with A?” Obviously, this only works in some situations. But it’s helpful because Fred’s actions are documented, you’re asking for verification (which if he doesn’t give at that moment is bad for him), and forces the problem beyond “undermining you” because it’s affecting another person. This could bring Fred to say, “No, I never said that.” But it sounds like in your situation you have the credibility and he doesn’t. So I wouldn’t be as concerned about that hear, but only if everyone is really onto him. If he gives you this information in email, even better for you.
          And, if he’s acting in a way that is outright disrespectful, especially because you’re leaving in a few months, don’t let coworker do that. “I can’t continue this conversation if you’re going to keep [insert rude behavior, e.g. cutting me off]. Should we pick this up this afternoon after we’ve both been able to think about it?” Said calmly and politely, but pointedly.
          Good luck, and congrats on moving on!

          1. WTF seriously?*

            Thank you for your response. I always pull my immediate supervisor in on everything I deal with this particular co-worker about. I try to do all communication through email, always on my end. Sometimes I have trouble responding in the moment because I’m so flabbergasted at what just occurred. I’m so glad there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it most certainly can’t come quick enough!

    3. SophieChotek*

      It sounds like you’ve done almost everything you can. Documenting. Your immediate supervisors are aware of the problem — it’s an issue higher-up…?

      1. WTF seriously?*

        Yup, it’s an issue higher up, basically everyone that could terminate co-worker here was told by corporate “Nope.”

          1. WTF seriously?*

            Exactly! This has been the main reason why I decided to not stick around. I don’t want to work for a company that doesn’t allow management to enforce consequences and keeps people like co-worker around.

  95. Northbound ho!*

    I just scored my first seasonal position with the National Parks this summer! Yay!

    Because my coordinator is swamped, I was wondering does anyone here work for the parks? I usually wear long sleeves and long pants for sun protection (season not withstanding, I have a large burn scar that I am really uncomfortable letting people see that also sunburns faster than the rest of my arms) and though it is not a deal breaker, I really prefer long sleeves and do my darndest to avoid shorts.

    I read somewhere unofficial (but cannot find it now) that sometimes a long sleeved shirt under the uniform dress shirt is permitted for sun protection, but my uniform allowance letter states that civilian elements are prohibited; that I cannot, say, wear a non-uniform jacket no matter how cold it is… and I know from working as a volunteer that actual employees are not permitted to wear a long – sleeved dress shirt in the summer since that is the winter uniform element.

    So my questions are, are there times when uniform shorts are an absolute must wear? Also are there any options for covering my forearms? I am guessing something must be acceptable even if it is not available to me, (ie. I am pretty sure Muslim women would have to be allowed to cover their arms and hair uniform standard or no, since it would be in accordance with their Religious beliefs.)

    I just want to know how exposed and oogy I am going to get to feel this summer.

    1. Anon Moose*

      Congrats. Whenever I’ve run into rangers (in the BWCA) they’ve always been in uniform but with other appropriate gear for the weather. I imagine it would also depend on your posting and how public-facing vs. remote you are. If you have a health reason for something, you could ask about it being accommodated (and I imagine they would have to let you wear a rain jacket or a coat if you’re out in the weather). I can’t imagine an individual level exception couldn’t be made but would probably ask an eventual supervisor vs. a person in charge of larger agency policy.

      1. Northbound ho!*

        Hello Anon Moose! Thank you for your reply, I am sorry I didn’t make it clear that the rain jacket was a hypothetical. When I was accepted I received a very clear list of what I needed to order, and it was also stated in no uncertain terms that anything “civilian” was not permissable to wear.

        Basically, if I ever anticipated getting cold from the rain I needed to purchase one of their jackets (which I did), but of course long sleeved shirts were not on the list of options, and short pants were.

        Since it is pushing it calling my burn a current medical condition (other than my low self esteem over it) I don’t think I am going to get far with the long sleeve thing other than the somewhat undisputable: “The best sun protection is covering up!” Which they may not go for.

        The shorts… I don’t mind seeing them on other people I just don’t like wearing them myself (too many mosquitos around in my area for one thing). I may just concede wearing them on occasion, I just picture myself having to psyche up (and also shave) before I do it.

    2. overeducated*

      Congrats! I was a seasonal ranger for years, it was such fun :)

      As long as you are wearing the pants that are part of the summer uniform that should be fine, *unless* there is a park-specific rule requiring shorts. (Some parks have slightly different uniform requirements than others, e.g. I worked at an urban park and we were never allowed to wear shorts, only pants or skirts and hose, because they’re more formal).

      For the shirt I’m not sure, but I think it’s something you may be able to ask about when you get there. Try asking the ParkRangers subreddit? If you can get permission to cover your forearms, it will probably have to be with a very plain black or white shirt that you purchase yourself, I don’t think there’s a long-sleeved option in the uniform catalogue.

      1. Northbound ho!*

        Thank you for your reply Overeducated, I knew there had to be some kind of ranger forum, but had no idea how to find it. I will check out the subreddit. I really hope there isn’t a Park specific rule about shorts (other than they cannot be worn in the winter time), and that it is purely my discretion whether to don them day to day or not.

        I know plenty of people advocate for and sometimes have to fight for shorts at this kind of job, and I don’t want to do anything to detract from that (like I complain so now no one gets to wear them)… who knows maybe I will grow to appreciate it.

        Weird as it sounds I would *almost* prefer skirt and hose and pumps, just because I personally feel more more polished that way (and my legs are technically covered) but unless it is a desk job I concede it wouldn’t be practical. Too many brambles and things to snag that hose on outside.

        1. Overeducated*

          I would be really surprised if your not wanting to wear shorts resulted in a blanket policy that no one at your park could! So don’t worry about that.

          I actually did wind up wearing the skirt and hose as much as I could because they were so. much. cooler. than the long pants in the summer, and because you don’t have to wear a belt with the skirt, so not having a line of sweat held against my waistband on hot days was nice. It was an urban setting so brambles weren’t an issue even for leading tours though. I did break the rules a little by wearing non-uniform flats because the pumps didn’t fit my feet properly – most of us were able to get away with non-standard shoes if they were very conservative brown leather without embellishments, and that was definitely because management decided to turn a blind eye.

          Good luck!

    3. Guinness*

      I am assuming you can get a medical accommodation for your arms; I have a family member that was burned and they told her she absolutely had to keep it out of the sun for at least a few years, and as far as I know, she still wears a compression sleeve.

      1. Northbound ho!*

        Wow Guiness, I am sorry to hear that!

        I was incredibly lucky that my burn was *only* a second degree burn and for the most part healed smoothly. Even though it hurt like hell, and changing my bandages sometimes had me screaming, I was so very fortunate to have dodged the world of skin grafts and compression sleeves and MRSA infections, which at the time was rampant in my area.

        I remember I was required to cover the burn for sometime, but the jobs I have had have only required sleeves and have never specified length, so I never have had to ask for a dress code accomodation while scar itself was… finalizing? (Not sure what word to use since technically the raw wound had healed but the scar wasn’t done.)

        It’s just that now long sleeeves are even more standard for me, even more so now than before (I’ve lived in some very sun – intense and culturally modest areas and usually wore them anyway.)

        Times like these though, I have to remember to be grateful that it wasn’t so much worse, and that I didn’t have to endure so much more. In comparison to what some people have gone through, it is just a stupid scar.

        I wish you and your family member well, and hope for the best for her.

    4. Park Ranger*

      Congratulations on your seasonal position! Can you say more about what kind of work you will be doing? Did your supervisor point you to the uniform policy in Reference Manual 43: https://www.nps.gov/policy/DOrders/DORM43.doc? The park should also have a uniform policy. The section on long-sleeved shirts states: “Long sleeve shirts may be worn with either summer or winter uniforms to accommodate environmental protection (poisonous plant, sun exposure, etc.) and work protection (for such hazards as welding sparks and barbed wire). The tie is never worn with the summer uniform” (18). Although long-sleeved shirts are required as part of the Class A uniform in the winter for public-facing positions, they should also be an option in the summer for those who want sun protection.

      I have never worked at a park where people are required to wear shorts. Only rarely are they even an option, and it depends on the park-specific rules. Depending on what type of work you are doing, you may have a choice between several types of pants to wear.

      Have a great season!

      1. Northbound ho!*

        I don’t know if you will come back to read this Park Ranger, but I wanted to thank you for sharing the park uniform policy manual. I knew there had to be one, but considering how busy my coordinator is with other more pressing issues, I was hesitant to bother her over something like this. Also my park seemed pretty lenient about the dress code, I know not all even allow shorts, and though there was a pair that was forbidden for the job, the standard short was on the list to buy.

        Anyway to answer your question, I was selected as a VSA fee collector, so I am not sure how much time I will spend in the booth or building vs. outside (directing traffic maybe? Not sure).

        Now that I have seen your excerpt I may ask if they will allow the long sleeved shirt for my position, and see what they say.

        Thank you again for pointing me in the right direction! :)

  97. hermit crab*

    Dear employers who provide staff with “phone rooms” for making private calls so they don’t have to do it at their desks in a open office space,

    This is a great idea, but please make sure that these rooms actually have cell reception.

    Sincerely,
    hermit crab

  98. Schnapps*

    Gripe: husband-type had a “final meeting” with the CIO of a company on Monday. We’re waiting on an offer/phone call.

    I think I’m more anxious about it than he is. :)

    1. Going anon*

      I’m waiting too! Incidentally, I’ve gotten three unrelated phone calls today when normally my phone almost never rings. Ugh.
      Good luck!!!

    2. Schnapps*

      I suppose it doesn’t help that they’re on a 9 day fortnight, and the hiring manager is usually off Mondays, and the HR person is usually off Fridays. :) He has a phone interview with another company on Tuesday afternoon.

  99. Gillian*

    Advice on whether or not to speak up in the moment? One of the women I carpool with will say things that end up sounding bigoted or racist and I really want to say something, even if it’s just so that she hears that not everyone agrees with her viewpoint and it might remind her to watch what she says.

    However, we live more than an hour away from work. I don’t want to get stuck in a protracted argument or weird awkwardness for everyone in the car for an hour. Thoughts? Should I speak up regardless, ignore it/try to sleep as I have been doing? Is there another option that I’m missing?

    1. Argh!*

      You could say “that’s not a very nice thing to say.” Everybody wants to be thought of as nice.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      If it’s weighing that heavily on you, I’d go with Argh!’s response. Saying “wow” just comes across as bitchy, which ordinarily might be fine, except I assume you want to remain in this carpool and continue to enjoy the financial benefit it conveys upon you while also not too badly damaging the relationship you have with the c0-worker. Depending upon the severity and frequency of the comments, and whether or not I can join another carpool if this all goes south, I may not say anything to the woman. People have unpopular opinions, and while she is riding among co-workers, she isn’t being paid while she’s in the car and she can say whatever she wants. I’m not saying the woman should, but she certainly can.

      Just giving another perspective. If it’s really offensive to you, maybe see about starting another carpool group? Best of luck!

      1. Gillian*

        We had a hard enough time finding a fourth person to join when our last rider got a new job that I don’t think I’d be able to find a whole other group of people, unfortunately.

        The comments really come and go and sometimes it’s weeks between them, so it’s not something happening every day. But I do feel guilty for not saying things sometimes, like if I’m not trying to stop it, I’m complicit as part of the problem.

    4. Anon Moose*

      Don’t most carpools have a “no politics or religion” rule? Even an unspoken one? Even if not, I think you can say, “hi Jane can we change the subject?”

      1. Gillian*

        I would have thought that, yes. She’s the only one that breaks it. Other carpool members talk about things like their new puppy or the shenanigans their toddler gets into.

        Or the time-honored carpool tradition of complaining about traffic. Probably the safest topic, even if it just makes everyone madder at the traffic than before.

    5. Student*

      I like humanizing it, even if it means lying. A flat delivery of, “You know, Lori, my dear auntie Cathy is a .” It says that your family member was insulted by the remark without being extremely confrontational. Aunts can be by marriage, so they can be anything at all minority-wise without casting obvious doubt on the story due to your phenotype or physiology or personal religion, etc. Aunts can conveniently have died years ago, so you can avoid having to ever produce her. Culture’s default mental picture of an aunt is a dear older woman; inherently non-threatening and hard to stereotype otherwise. If you’re afraid to be directly associated with the targeted demographic, then it still gives you some distance if things escalate in a bad way.

      1. Gillian*

        This is an interesting idea – I might try it when it wouldn’t sound too awkward. Thanks!

  100. Calliope~*

    Backstory- I work for a non-profit that is contracted to a state agency. I have a non-local boss that I see once a month for about 2 hours but deal directly on a daily basis with the agency team leader. She will say/tell me one thing in meetings but when I do or bring them to my own boss, she denies ever saying it.

    This has happened multiple times in the last few months and I feel like she’s trying to sandbag me when she does this and I need to figure out a way to handle the situation. One of my strategies going forward will be to email her, cc’ing my boss with “This is what we discussed, this is what you said, this is what I said, please confirm ” type email. Does this sound like an appropriate course of action?

    My boss has now scheduled a 3 way meeting with me and the team lead next week and I need coping mechanisms to ensure I keep my body language and emotions in check because this woman has made my life difficult to the point of tears in the past and I just don’t want to go there. I also always think of the right things to say about an hour after the meeting takes place when I’m under stress so I’m pretty concerned about how I can approach this head on without coming off as defensive.

    Thoughts?

      1. Calliope~*

        Yes, she denies she said x, y or z or that I’m not paying close enough attention and I’ve even had a “I have no idea where you came up with that one, but it’s out in left field”, which it was but not by me!

        This last time, I asked a coworker how much time did TeamLead say I was to spend out-posting, and it was exactly what I had said to my boss (half my available time) so I know I didn’t misunderstand.

        The problem is, she’ll say one thing to me and another to my supervisor and it feels that she’s doing it to intentionally undermine me in the eyes of my boss.

  101. Argh!*

    I had another discussion with my upper level management supervisor, who made Supervision 101 mistakes with me. By now I realize I’ve had more and better training (and I read this blog!). When these things happen, I assert myself (rightly) & repeat my request/statement, and then she gets defensive and even smug. She smirks at my replies to her wrong wrong wrong statements. Some of her wrong wrong wrong things are actually illegal. It’s so hard not to raise my voice when I’m being treated like crap and have a legitimate issue to discuss. Since when did being at/near the top mean you’re allowed to demean the people under you?

    She’s old as dirt and I don’t expect her to change. I just keep fantasizing about applying for her job when she retires. It makes me happy for a few minutes anyway.

  102. Mrs. Norris T. Wagner*

    I am starting a new job next week – my first new employer in 10 years. I have, of course, searched the archives but any new job type advice is appreciated!

    Also – this site as a resource has been invaluable and really helped through the entire process! While I have been using the advice here for a while, this time I really kicked it up a notch and it paid off.

    1. Girasol*

      Enter with amnesia: you had a past life but can’t remember it. It’s so hard not to say “Where I used to work…” but that never ends well, however positive and helpful the reference might be.

  103. Another Day, Another Fed*

    I’ve got a question for other feds: I’m thinking of moving to a new position within my agency. It has the same grade range as my current job, but I have much more direct experience with the work, so I’d think that I’d be able to move up a grade based on experience. No dice– HR told me it’d only be a lateral move. Am I out of luck, or is there any way for me to make a case that I should be moved up?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      Fed here…if you are already at the highest grade level you can be in your current position, say a GS 11 taking another GS 11 position, you are out of luck. The job is graded how it’s graded.

      However, if you are in a job that is 7/9/11 and you are currently a 9, but want to take the new position as an 11, then I also don’t think you’ll win that fight. However, you may want to ask around your office and see if you can negotiate salary. For example, you may be able to go over as an 11, but instead go over as a GS 9, Step 10, which makes more than a GS 11, step 1. You are still the grade they want, but you get more money. Then when it is time to bump you up to the next grade, assuming there are automatic promotions in the position, you would be bumped up to a GS 11, at whatever step ensures that you make more than you were making as a 9, step 10.

      Best of luck!

      1. Infinity*

        Also a fed, and co-sign with all the advice.
        I did this kind of negotiation for my current position, not as a lateral though. So it’s very agency, and even day-of-the week dependent. In my agency, whoever is making the hiring decision is the one that fills out the paper work that would allow for this to happen. I can’t find it now, but its paperwork regarding why you have exceptional qualifications and deserve the higher step. So, speak with whoever would be filling out the paperwork for the new position and see if they agree and would be willing to vouch for you.

    2. K130*

      Is the new position only a single grade or is it developmental (e.g. GS-9/10/11)? Getting a position regraded is a red tape nightmare. And in our agency, we have one classifier, so it would probably take a lot longer than the hiring timeframe. If it’s developmental, the application will ask what is the lowest grade you’ll accept.

  104. LC*

    So I’m waiting to hear back from an internship, which I said I would be able to start on June 27. However, I’ve recently been invited to a conference that weekend (June 30-July 1), so I’d prefer not to start until the following Monday.

    Do I email the hiring manager, or wait and see if they offer me the role? I don’t want to move the goalposts on them if they do decide to extend an offer, but I’m not sure if it’s something they need to know before an official is made (or not).

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      I think I would wait to see if the role was offered. Also, would the position be more likely to start on the first of the month? Our intern started on something like Monday the second of the month.

      1. LC*

        Thanks for your response! The preferred start date for the internship was the beginning of June, but they indicated some flexibility so I’ve been upfront about the time constraints of my degree program. Part of my guilt stems from the fact that they’d already be accommodating me by letting me start later, so I worry about being overly demanding by asking for another week.

  105. Big McLargeHuge*

    New interviewer here and I was wondering if this is a normal thing or if I’m just different. I had a situation during my first solo flight as an interviewer last week that has stuck with me since. I’ve had mixed thoughts from others on it and wanted to reach out here.

    This is my situation. During the interview, the candidate mentioned that he had transferred into a department he was mildly familiar with and on the second day he was already recommending changes to processes. At first, I thought that this was great as he was looking for ways to improve things, but the more I thought about it, it began to raise red flags to me. I had to wonder if this candidate was a shoot from the hip, implement change then analyze the impact, type of person or if he actually had a grasp of the full picture and the change would actually help the process improve. He didn’t give me much detail on the process, so I can’t tell if it was a mundane process or one that was of significant impact, but regardless, it didn’t sit well with me.

    Just looking for any thoughts on this. I’m trying not to let my gut guide me too much, but this one stuck out to me quite a bit.

    Thanks!

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      I can see both sides of your reaction to his response. Ideally, at that time, you would have asked him for more detail, but that ship has clearly sailed. If you feel he’s a strong candidate, other than your uncertainty regarding this issue, you could always come up with some additional follow up questions and tell him that you needed clarification on some of his responses or wanted to revisit a couple of areas to help you make a final decision/further narrow the pool of candidates. He’ll feel good because he’ll feel he’s a strong candidate and will likely be inclined to answer your questions and you’ll get the clarity you need.

      Without knowing what he wanted to change, it’s hard to say which of your reactions is correct. You just need more information. For what’s it worth, I hired people like this guy……who quickly made recommendations for changes. Some were great hires and others weren’t. What made the difference in the great ones, was that they took the time and effort to understand why a certain process or procedure was in place to begin with and would ask lots of questions to make sure they understood before making their suggestion. And the good ones also took rejection well if their suggestion was never implemented.

    2. fposte*

      Ideally, you follow up an answer like that with questions that illuminate exactly what you’re considering now. “Oh, interesting–what kind of changes? Can you tell me what kind of analysis you undertook that prompted those suggestions?”, that kind of thing.

      It’s also worth considering the impact culturally–in some teams that will spell his doom, and in some teams they’d be wondering why he waited till the second day. Think about who he’d be working with and how that approach will fit with them. I personally lean more toward the analysis side, so this would be a sign of likely bad fit for working under me. It sounds like he didn’t give any context for the answer that acknowledged the possible implications of this statement (“It was obvious safety was being compromised, so I had to leap in/The power bill had to get paid right away/it was just about where we kept the tape”), which suggests he may think it’s always great to dive right in with ideas about change, regardless of the situation.

      So I don’t think he’d be right for me, but that doesn’t answer the question for you and your team.

    3. Argh!*

      Coming in with some familiarity, he could have already had ideas about things that needed to be changed before he started there. I agree with the advice to explore those answers for more nuance. Possible follow-up questions: “Were any of your ideas acted on?” “Were these all things within your scope or just general departmental processes?” “Can you give an example of something that jumped out at you?” “Do you consider yourself a problem-solver?”

      Some places need yet fear an outsider’s perspective, so if he shook things up and that was an improvement then YAY for him! Some people are hired for a position specifically because they have something special to offer. It could be a totally positive thing if his insight was needed (even if not welcome), but a negative thing if he’s arrogant and brutish. You don’t have enough information to know that, but you know the people he’ll be working with. Some are so averse to change or constructive criticism that even the nicest must humble suggestions would create unnecessary drama.

      I supervise someone who absolutely can never see or consider a new way of doing things. He has blinders on and frequently finds himself stuck and frustrated with only one solution (usually expensive) in mind. Our relationship has been difficult from the beginning because he’s also very fragile about these things. He gets testy, resentful, and dramatic when I think of some other way of solving the problem. Fortunately, I can pull rank and sign off on the cheaper expense, and I don’t take the sighs and “If you say so….” comments personally. I just say, we can try this and if it doesn’t work we will work out something else. I don’t think there has been one instance yet where we went back to the old way of doing things. If I could hire for a new position to partner with him, I would look for a creative problem-solver like your interviewee and let them sort it out rather than have to be the “bad guy” myself.

  106. Jo-Marie*

    Hi all. I’m looking for perspectives on my situation from anyone who’s had a similar one. Basically, I’m 32 and have been in this lovely college town since I came out here for college at 18. I’ve had reasonable career growth and have AMAZING friends and community here. I do love it here. But, I’m single, and I go through periods of restlessness and feeling I need to shake things up.
    Recently an opportunity came up for moving 4 hours away (but closer to my family), which would provide more career growth (that I could probably still achieve here, but maybe not quite so soon). Also, itms with a company that I worked for in college when they were headquartered here, so they’re a known quantity to me: good people, strong company. Everything else is variable: not sure where I’d live, might still be an hour from family (itms Southern California), I have a dog I’d need to situate, I would have no friends to start and am very shy.

    Has anyone else up and moved, and what was your experience? I’m particularly looking for the single perspective because marriage is a bit of a built-in friendship and practical matters help-mate.

    1. Laura*

      I moved from Southern California almost immediately after graduating from college. I left my family, friends, and several belongings I loved because they wouldn’t fit in my car. I moved for a job. While the job didn’t work out, I am SO happy to be away from a “bubble” and in a fresh job market with new people around me. It’s the most adult thing I’ve ever done.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Hey, single with a dog here. I moved couple states away from my family, to the same state I went to grad school but different city. Honestly it’s hard, it takes a lot. I got lucky and made a friend at work right away, unfortunately they just moved across the country to be closer to family, so after being here a year and a half I’m basically starting over again.

      I’ve started getting more active with my dog, seriously if I didn’t have her, I’d be lonely AF. I also looked into volunteering at the dog shelter, which I’ve worked with dogs before and really wanted to again, unfortunately I also really want another dog, sooo don’t think that’s the best option, lol.

      Anyway, you will have to get out of your comfort zone and look for ways to get out. I’ve thought about joining a bowling league, but not really there yet. But for you, that’s really not that far from family, so that might make it easier. But at the same time, I know I don’t regret it because it really was a great move career-wise.

      1. Jo-Marie*

        Thank you, that’s good to hear.

        After the initial offer, I sat down and talked with a friend who’d made a similar move TO my current town (from Southern California), and talking it all through with her I started to realize I didn’t want to leave. Am starting to think now that I needed an actual, tangible opportunity to pack up and leave to show me that that’s not really what I want. I’ve been peaceful all week with the thought of staying, so I’m thinking that’s the route to go. I just wanted to hear from some outsiders, too. What you said lines up with my suspicions–that I’d be lonely AF, even with my dog and family. In fact, I’d probably spend too much time with my family and hinder my possibilities of socialization.

        I appreciate your response!

    3. Lizketeer*

      I moved from my college town (several states from home but where I had friends) to a state even father away where I knew no one. This is also a very transient place where people don’t stay long because they are either vacationing, or on temporary internships.

      The biggest thing for me was to start getting involved places. I started volunteering on a regular basis, tried out different churches (this took me a year to really get plugged in somewhere), and made sure I was doing more than just hanging out in my apartment. It took a long time to really make friends, and a lot of the people I meet leave after 6 months, but just being intentional about saying hello to someone (which is really hard for me) has been a big help.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      I moved when I was 30 from a huge metro area in which I had lived since graduation to a smaller, hipper large city. It was a move away from a lot of family and great friends to where I knew almost no one. I was single and looking to make some changes – bust out of a rut, so to speak. Best thing I ever did! The first year was a little rough but I am so glad I made the leap. I made some great friends, learned a lot about myself, and I never have to look back and wonder, “what if?”

      Good luck!

  107. drivesmenuts*

    I just want to reiterate some advice I have seen a couple of times on AAM about asking about health insurance premiums when evaluating the value of a job offer. I am in the offer stage of a new job and everything looked good with what they wanted to pay me until I saw their health insurance premiums. They offer a very expensive plan for all their employees and there’s only one option. I realized that I will actually be bringing home less money at this new job than currently (even with an initial pay increase at the new company). In the end I am going to take the new job because it has huge advantages compared to my current job. But I just want to remind everyone to check the health insurance premiums before agreeing to an offer!

    1. AnonymousMarketer*

      I just had this happen as well. I didn’t think it could be more than my current job; I was able to negotiate a higher salary and extra vacation days. I’m paying an extra $100 a month for insurance, but I’ll still see more in my take-home.

  108. Anoonsie*

    Hi folks, what’s the norm for notifying colleagues when you’re resigning? I work in a role that provides services throughout our organization so I work with a lot of people in different areas and don’t know how or when they might find out. I’m hoping I can get the messaging straight (“I’m leaving for another job of my own volition” vs what is likely to be implied based on what I’ve seen before with other folks, “we’re sending her off because of poor performance”) but I’m not sure what’s appropriate.

    We have to submit written notice so my plan was to send that in and then email the folks I work with and tell them what my last day is and that I’m heading off to work at Teapots Inc now. I’m concerned this is inappropriate since I’d be preempting my supervisor’s notice to people, but I’m reasonably sure my supervisor’s notice will give implications that are not true and will leave a tarnish on my reputation at this company. These colleagues don’t know me much personally so if the story goes out “Anoon doesn’t work here anymore bc she did a bad job” that story is likely to stick around stronger than the work I’ve done… The nature of my job is sort of, when it’s going well no one notices, it’s only when it goes wrong that it gets much attention.

    1. Anoonsie*

      I forgot to mention- I’m concerned because I’ve seen this happen to the last several people who left, this sort of innuendo is what gets floated around because there’s a lot of resentment from management when someone decides to leave. They don’t force people out before their notice period is up but they do make the notice period really unpleasant and go all Ole Yeller “we never wanted you anyhow! Get outta here!”

    2. Infinity*

      I feel for you here. You can’t control how people spin your departure. Maintain your professionalism as you exit and that will be the legacy you control. People who work with you will know any “poor performance” reason given by your supervisor. I also wouldn’t worry about it too much. You’re moving onto a different company. Should your path cross with anyone who heard the lie, you’ll be happy to prove that the lie was wrong.

      1. Anoonsie*

        I’m only concerned because re: management always has hard feelings, I want to make sure I can keep the good references I have with some of the other people I’ve done good work for in the past side anything any of the managers around here will give in the future would be lukewarm but there are several other people I’ve worked with who have always been glowing in their praise of what I’ve done for them. But they don’t know me personally and don’t know what all other work I do, just their own projects, so I just have anxiety that if they get this whiff of Problems Elsewhere theit future recommendations will be tempered by that :(

        1. Observer*

          I’d email people my last day. This way you don’t get in your manager’s way, but you also get the real deal out.

  109. Blah*

    Other than getting a new job (which isn’t something I’m interested in doing right now), how do you cope in a work environment where 85% of the employees do job X and you do job Y. My coworkers are nice people and I get along with most of them, but sometimes I just feel like such an interloper. I feel left out so much because I don’t do job X (and it’s not an environment where I can crosstrain, jobs X and Y are very different things you study at university for. Other than getting a job where more people do job Y, what can I do to not feel so left out?

    1. TCO*

      This is related to a discussion near the top of the thread about someone feeling lonely now that they’re perceived as management. Can you find colleagues at other organization whose roles are similar to yours? Look for networking groups, training opportunities, etc. That’s really helped me a lot when I’ve felt isolated because my role is so different from the rest of the company’s.

  110. Ann Furthermore*

    Started job hunting a couple months ago, and I knew it would be different than the last time I was on the market (almost 12 years ago) but man, it is *really* different.

    I’d LOVE to return to a company I worked for before coming to my currently employer. It’s a very, very large software company. I’ve applied for 3 positions on the website (not a scattershot approach, just 3 positions that fit my skill set in different ways). Not a peep so far. I’ve connected with a few recruiters on LinkedIn from this company, and yesterday I took a chance and sent one of them a message, and actually got a response. He has a few openings in the support group that he thought would be a good fit for me, and they would, but the commute would be at least an hour each way, and at this point I’m not willing to spend that much of my day in the car. I asked if I could work either remotely, or from the office about 15 minutes from where I live, and then make the drive a couple times a week, but if that wasn’t an option, I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time. He said they do need people in the office each day. I responded and said that because I have a 7 year old, working an hour away would dump almost all of the logistical kid stuff onto my husband, so that’s why I’d be reluctant to get into that situation. And I thanked him very much for taking the time to talk with me. I also told him that in this day and age of applicant tracking systems, it was really nice to be able to talk to an actual person. So even though nothing panned out,

    I’m lucky that I have a job and can afford to take my time, but now that I’ve decided I’m ready to move on, I just want to get on with it. I’ve gotten a ton of responses to my resume from Career Builder and Monster, but it’s all for consulting work, which is not an option for me. According to LinkedIn I have an “All-Star” profile, whatever that means. There’s work out there, but what I do is fairly specialized, so it’s going to take some time. It’s been humbling, to be sure. Up to this point in my career, I’ve been able to find jobs pretty easily, or had them kind of land in my lap, or got referred by a friend or acquaintance, and my career has progressed steadily. This is a very different experience.

    1. Ann Furthermore*

      *So even though nothing panned out, I really was thankful that he took the time to talk with me instead of just referring me to the job website. There are real humans out there after all!

    2. SoCalKate*

      I’ve had a better response rate with Indeed.com than with Career Builder or Monster. It does help to know what keywords or title words you are looking for. And I think Indeed searches Career Builder and Monster.

  111. Laura*

    Happy birthday, Alison!

    My cubicle is next to a large walk-in closet that is used primarily for storage. We also have a (filthy) microwave and a water filter. On Monday, the full-size fridge in the closet was cleaned out and removed due to a horrific smell– probably mold on the carpet beneath the unit. One of my coworkers brought in an unused mini fridge, which was nice of him. The closet is now slightly less revolting.

    That being said, it’s still in need of some deep cleaning and organization. The shelves and items inside are actually fire code violations, and though I emailed the fire marshal about it, I never received a response.

    Is there anything I can do to effect change here? I would really like the space to be functional and enjoyable for everyone, but I don’t want to just quietly do it myself when the issues were there when I started my job…

  112. Anne*

    How many of you have a pension? Would you leave a job with a pension for a higher paying job without a pension? Curious for people’s thought.

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      I have a pension…it isn’t the greatest, but the pension alone isn’t what keeps me. Most jobs with pensions, also tend to have unions or other similar activist groups looking out for the employee’s interests. If the pension existed without the union, I would likely leave for a higher paying job. Also, depending upon who is paying the pension, you are taking a gamble by assuming that the business will continue and be finally healthy enough to pay it’s future pension liabilities. For some companies, that is a big if, especially if you are early in your career and retirement is 20+ years away. I am a Federal employee and I don’t believe the Federal govt could get away with defaulting on it’s pension liabilities. GM, however, or any other large company for that matter, is a different story.

      So…if a pension is the only additional benefit, and there is, or could be, uncertainty about the entity’s ability to meet future pension liabilities, then I’d do some comparison with hard numbers to see if it’s worth it for you.

      1. Anne*

        Thanks! Retirement is at least 20 years away in this situation. No Union. Company no Longer offers pensions to new employees. That benefit went away several years ago.

    2. fposte*

      I theoretically do. It’s the state of Illinois, which is the worst-funded pension system in the country, so it’s sort of the worst of both worlds–I won’t be eligible for any Social Security, but it’s not clear what this pension is going to do down the line.

      Even if it was solid, though, I don’t think it would keep me if I wanted to go. Most people don’t have pensions these days, and it’s not a bar to a successful career and retirement. I’m very good about using my tax-deferred space anyway.

    3. Guinness*

      I have a pension, but I am in my early 30s and definitely keep in the back of my mind that it may very well be eliminated by the time I’m ready to retire — so I still have a separate retirement account and it honestly wouldn’t affect a decision to move. But, if I were in my 50s I would probably think differently about it.

    4. Laura*

      If I stay at my current employer for five years, I will have a VERY generous pension plan. The urge to stay is strong, but there’s no telling how that’ll change. I’d have to move states to find a better employer, and I won’t even consider that for a while.

    5. skyline*

      It takes 10 years to vest in my pension plan. I’m a bit over halfway through that, so I’d like to stay long enough to vest. I wouldn’t leave just for a higher salary at this point, but if my work situation became untenable, I wouldn’t let the pension plan stop me from looking for other opportunities. That said, there are opportunities to change organizations and stay in the same plan, since it is a state one, so that would be my first choice in that situation.

      At any rate, I save for retirement as if the pension may not materialize. It’s good for my peace of mind, and it’s also excellent training in living within your means. We also still pay into Social Security, so my pension doesn’t exclude me from that.

  113. AnotherTeacher*

    An update on a previous minor rant about colleague “A”, who gave me attitude for a few weeks after I asked for her help with a shared project:

    Colleague “A” ended up moving to another position, not because of our interaction but for some other issues. Since she left, I found out that the shared project definitely fell under her job responsibilities. Not only was I not out of line in asking for her help – for a bit, I worried I had been – she should have been doing the work for the project as part of her **regular** job duties! I also found out that her supervisor knew about our interaction and did nothing. I didn’t want to make our interaction a problem for “A” and thus never mentioned it to her supervisor; however, since the project was actually part of “A’s” job, I would have appreciated her supervisor prompting her to work on it.

  114. Rustina de la Nooch*

    For all the HR Pros out there…..questions about background checks and felons:

    Here’s the Deal:
    Husband has a felony conviction (nonviolent offender — he stole a weed eater and a leaf blower….I’m not even kidding). Conviction date is 16 years ago, he’s been out for 15 years with only speeding tickets since that time which were all promptly paid. No college degree. Successfully completed parole and is no longer on parole. He was out of the workforce for about 8 years and was a stay-at-home dad so I could work and go to school full time. It made the most sense at the time. He’s back in the workforce now and has been for 2.5 years, but is wanting to transition from a small business to a larger company. Not Fortune 500 large but mid-size business large.

    So my questions are as follows:
    1. Even if an application asks if you’ve been convicted in the last 5, 7, 10, etc. years, does the company actually run the background check to go back further than those dates?
    2. If they do go back further than the dates they request, is the issue a deal breaker? (I’ve advised him not to bring the issue up unless the interviewer specifically asks him at some point)
    3. For companies that ask “have you EVER been convicted” do they really care about something that happened 16 years ago when he was 18? He’s almost 40….geez!
    3. Do any mid-size or larger businesses actually hire people with felony convictions. I’m not looking for the “protect the company from a lawsuit” answer. I’m looking for the real answer. I feel rather hopeless for him because I can’t imagine that any company would hire someone with a felony, assuming it somehow shows up which doesn’t seem that unlikely, considering that they could easily find someone else without a felony.

    And note, he is not applying for all of the obvious jobs for which he would be disqualified (bank teller, anything involving sensitive financial information, anything with a Fortune 500 company, etc.) He is perfectly content with lower level customer facing or clerical type roles.

    Any advice anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated. Happy Friday!

      1. Rustina de la Nooch*

        Unfortunately not in the state of Texas. But it would be lovely though.

    2. Student*

      How does any of this impact your husband’s actions or your own? He’s going to have to put out applications or resumes at places he wants to work either way. He’s got to give them the benefit 0f the doubt, blindly, whether they deserve it or not, and just keep applying until he hits something that’s a good match. Anything else is jut window dressing to justify him not applying.

      You’ll never know the real answer to any of these questions. It will vary significantly by employer, by HR department, even by specific hiring manager. The only thing you could possibly do about any of this is (1) start a business with hiring practices towards felons that you deem appropriate based on your personal experience (2) start lobbying politically/PR-wise for felons.

      1. Rustina de la Nooch*

        I will tell you how it impacts his actions……there is no point in applying to jobs endlessly when there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of getting hired. It is a complete waste of time. Sort of like applying to be an astronaut or physicist when you have a degree in English lit….over, and over, and over, and over, and over…….you are wasting your time.

        And it doesn’t really vary significantly by employer….if they ask “have you EVER been convicted?” and you say “yes” they will invariably NEVER call you. Feel free to try it out for yourself and see how much time it takes to go through the online application process, or tailoring your resume to each job, for lower level positions only to never receive a call. Obviously, he’ll keep trying…there’s not much else he can do. I just really wanted to know what happens behind the scenes. And while your suggestions are interpreted as being sarcastic, (my apologies if you aren’t being sarcastic) truthfully no one cares what happens to felons and hiring practices are likely never going to change, especially when there is an abundance of qualified candidates on the market that don’t have felonies. It’s just the reality of it, I realize.

        1. Observer*

          Actually, hiring practices ARE changing in some areas. Google “ban the box”. 13 states have actually passed legislation banning the question on applications forms, although Texas is not one of them. But some folks apparently think the legislation is a good idea. Austin just passed its own ban the box ordinance – Fair Chance Hiring Ordinance.

          Lots of luck with this!

      2. Florida*

        Rustina’s question is a fair one. Yes, the answer depends on the specific hiring practices of the employer, department, and even specific manager, but isn’t that true of every question that has ever been asked on this website? Rustina is asking about hiring norms, which is a very reasonable question.

    3. LTR*

      1. Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, agencies that provide information (such as criminal history) may not generally go back further than 7 years if there was not a conviction. That said, most employers probably don’t look past 7 years.
      2. EEOC also provides guidelines (not a law) on considering criminal history. Three considerations: nature of the offense, date of the offense, relevance of offense to job duties. They highly discourage having a blanket ban on refusing to hire someone with a criminal conviction.
      3. One of the reasons employers do background checks is to avoid negligent hiring claims (new employee with several assault convictions hits his boss, boss sues saying employer should have known employee was violent, etc.). Good employers won’t care about something that happened 16 years ago, especially if there hasn’t been a pattern of offenses.
      3a. Yes. Again, most employers do background checks. Good employers consider convictions on a case-by-case basis and apply the EEOC considerations I mentioned above.

      I am not a lawyer, just an HR guy who spent years conducting and reviewing background checks.

    4. Florida*

      I worked for a mid-size company once that asked about felonies on the app. They didn’t run a background check for most positions. However, if they wanted to get rid of you, the first thing they would do is pull out your application and see how you answered. If you said NO, they would run a background check. If you lied, they would fire you for lying on your application. They did this for people who had been working there for several years. It was just a convenient, safe way to fire people and have a legitimate reason for doing it.
      But if you said YES, they would consider you (depending on the situation). In your case, they would hire the person.

      I’m not a HR person, but my office was housed in the HR department of this particular company, so I got to see that aspect of it.

    5. HRChick*

      I’m in recruitment and I can tell you that a 17 year old felony does not hurt someone’s chances as long as it wasn’t severe in nature (murder, for instance, would probably make us hesitate for most position!)

      What we look for is (1) recentness (2) repeated offenses that display a pattern of behavior that can’t be explained away by youthful indiscretion (3) violent offenses (4) dealing of illegal substances for a long period of time (we’re a school) (5) parole violations. Otherwise, we’re good to go!

      1. HRChick*

        Forgot to mention that we are usually more stringent for positions that are considered “positions of trust”. That is, people like our maintenance and custodial staff who have access to almost everywhere on campus and need to work independently without issue.

    6. Temperance*

      Why doesn’t he try to expunge his record? If he’s a nonviolent offender who did something stupid once in his life, he might have a good case for it.

    7. Marvel*

      I am so far from an expert on this, but honestly? I’d just be up-front about it if asked.

      Like this: “When I was 18, I stole a leaf blower. I was a dumb kid, and that’s obviously not something I’d ever do again.” I really don’t think one incident of theft at 18 is going to be a major issue for a lot of employers, provided his other qualifications are good.

      1. Marvel*

        I should add that, while I’m still not an expert, my dad is a felon. He was also very young at the time (early 20s, iirc), and it was a non-violent offense. He spent 5 months in prison, and 15 years later he was making over 100k a year. Anecdotal data, but perhaps encouraging.

    8. Champagne_Dreams*

      You’re actually better off with the large companies with a national presence, because they will be conforming to the various state-specific curbs on background checking. For example, lots of places (including Austin) have ban-the-box, which means you’re not allowed to ask about criminal history until after an offer of employment has already been extended (and they’ve already decided they really want you). There are also many places that mandate that you cannot look beyond 7 years, and you must evaluate each record against the individual circumstances and the job being offered. I’m based in Texas, and most of those laws are from other states, but because we hire nationwide, we apply the most stringent standard in the country to our entire process company-wide.

      I see my director passing background checks with criminal histories all the time. It depends on the individual analysis. However, I *have* seen my director fail a background check that otherwise might have passed because under the “do you have criminal history?” question they’d said no, which she interprets as fraudulent intent (for a job where fraud is relevant to the role). If somebody admits “yes” on that question, and then nothing shows up in the check, then we assume it was over 7 years ago, and therefore not relevant. Your husband could always just click the “yes” button but then give no commentary, to stay on the right side of honest without giving away more info than he has to.

      Every company will be different, but that’s what we do.

  115. Emmy*

    Happy Birthday, Alison! Thank you for all that you do for us, for your sense of humor and clear, compassionate answers! Enjoy your day!

  116. I'm posting for a friend....*

    I asked my friend to make my new website for me. They are good at what they do, and I thought it’d be helping them out giving them a job (self employed but not had much on of late). It all looked promising.
    They said the work would take about two weeks but that was in back Feb.
    To be fair, the site’s nearly ready and they’ve spent about 100 hours on it which is, I guess, just over a fortnight in working weeks terms.
    I’m hemorrhaging cash. My business is going nowhere and one of the big things I need is a new website and total re-brand to push my business forward. My current website is outdated and doesn’t showcase enough of my work to attract enough custom…

    Do I say anything and if so, how to do I frame it? I don’t want this to impact on our friendship if possible.

    1. Nova Terra*

      Was this a paid job? Because if it was, you are a client of your friend, and a client has grounds to ask for status updates regarding why a project missed its deadline. You could also ask if your friend could push the new website in increments (maybe showcasing your products but not have the web store online just yet) or work out some other solution.

      If this was free work, i.e. your friend was doing you a favour and didn’t charge you, then you have far less ground to push because their paying work would likely be higher priority than yours.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think now it will be difficult to salvage things, especially since you said “the site’s nearly ready.”

      This is something that your friend should have ironed it with you in the beginning with a contract: “You pay me X amount for a website with these parameters and a maximum of two rounds of changes. I will complete the work in such-and-such a time frame, provided you give me feedback within Y hours of each deliverable. If the change requests go beyond the first two, we need to renegotiate the contract, which may involve, depending on the scope of the changes, a completely new project or a charge of Z per hour of extra work.”

      In the future, I would steer clear of any designer who doesn’t have such a contract (language goes far more in-depth and with proper legalese than what I paraphrased above), friend or not. You can also pay in increments (a deposit in good faith, some more on the first deliverable, etc.).

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I had this problem with a manuscript review. You absolutely have standing to ask about it, since it’s a paid job. I like the suggestion to see if he can get it going in increments. He either owes you a deliverable or a refund.

      But never, ever, ever again will I pay anyone for anything of this nature without a written contract that includes a projected end date (and avoids language that allows the person to dance around said end date). And a clause that if the deliverable doesn’t happen by said end date, aside from any pre-negotiated grace periods, I get a partial or full refund. If we cannot agree to the terms, then we do not do business.

  117. greenbeans*

    I know Allison has written in the past about how to juggle two job offers. I have a similar situation with a small twist.

    I currently have a full-time job plus a part-time freelance gig. I’m looking for a new full-time job. I’m a finalist for a great job at Company A. When I asked my contact at the freelance gig for a reference, she said yes and was enthusiastic. However, a few days later, she said she thought it over and wanted me to consider working for them full-time instead. (I don’t have an official offer on paper yet, but she wants me to come in next week to discuss it. My feeling is that the job is likely mine if I want it.)

    That was unexpected and happy news, but I’d prefer to work for Company A if they give me an offer. I’m thinking about asking for an update from Company A and explaining my other offer (if or when I get one). However, this is the twist: my freelance gig was going to be my best reference. I can’t use my current manager without jeopardizing my job, and although my other references are great, they are from when I worked in a completely different field.

    Would it be weird or awkward to use my freelance gig as a reference when they now want me to accept a full-time role with them, and not the other company? I feel like it would be potentially weird and awkward, but it’s tough to lose that reference.

    1. LC*

      Oh gosh, that is awkward–but the awkwardness is on freelance gig, not on you. I think you should just say something like, “I’d love to come discuss future opportunities with you, but in the meantime, I’m hoping to keep moving forward with Company A. Do you still think you could provide a reference, or would it make more sense for me to ask a previous employer before we talk about next steps?”

      1. greenbeans*

        I feel like all of the awkwardness is on me. :P It’d be easier if I was planning to turn down the freelance company’s offer. I could just say no, but ask them if they could still provide a reference. But, I’d like to accept the freelance company’s offer if Company A doesn’t pan out. So it’s doing the traditional two-offer juggle/buying some time thing plus the now-questionable reference.

        Ah well. I have a feeling I’ll end up accepting the freelance company’s offer as the bird in the hand. Thanks. :)

  119. A Cita*

    Given the recent Tyson et. al. chicken processing workers in diapers scandal, an academic colleague re-upped a blog post where he talks about how the policing of bathroom breaks at work is not a new phenomenon, and how workers didn’t even get the legal right to pee on the job until 1998. Thought some of you might enjoy the post (he references Void Where Prohibited and other great works):

    http://coreyrobin.com/2012/03/08/lavatory-and-liberty-the-secret-history-of-the-bathroom-break/

  120. What would you like on your first day?*

    I have my first ever direct report starting Monday. Work station is set up and lunch with peers planned. What else would you like on your first day?

    1. Student*

      Reasonable starter task to dive into; a task well – chosen to be forgiving of early mistakes or normal learning curve timelines, but gives exposure to important aspects of the job.

      1. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

        I’ve got a couple of those lined up. Trying to walk the line between diving right in and overwhelming them.

    2. SL #2*

      My boss did an intro walk with me on my first day– she led me up the hall to introduce me to everyone (about 20-ish people in the whole company). We also had a sit-down to talk about expectations, projects currently in motion, and to answer any questions I had. It helped me feel a lot less overwhelmed!

    3. I'm Not Phyllis*

      A working computer! Sounds so lame, but nothing makes me feel at home in a new job like being able to set up my new digital signature.

      1. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

        I’ve got that done! It was a very short hire to start window and my IT team worked wonders.

    4. I'm posting for a friend....*

      if possible, could they be let go earlier e.g. 30 mins/an hour – new job and surrounding is overwhelming after all! (just on the first day)

    5. periwinkle*

      1. A floor map with clear markings for: manager’s location; restrooms; vending machines/break room (if applicable); supply cabinet/office manager/other person who knows how to obtain pens and mousepads; and emergency exit(s).
      2. If the report is new to the office (rather than an internal transfer): list of popular lunch spots nearby and nearest purveyor of caffeinated delights.

      It’s one thing to point to Wakeen and tell me he’s the Exalted Keeper of Binder Clips but it’s my first day on the job and I’m lucky if I can find my way back to my desk. Put it in writing, please.

      If your company maintains org charts, a printed one is handy for reference so she can more easily recall who is who. Bonus points if they include photos of at least the Big Cheeses. I chatted with a new-ish hire who had been sitting in his cubicle on day 1 and was visited by some random guy who introduced himself – “Hi, I’m Joe, glad to have you here.” He had no idea that Joe was his boss’s boss’s boss.

      1. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

        Y’all are starting to make me feel better about how prepared I am. This is my first time as a supervisor, so I’m a bit paranoid about screwing up! I’ve got all the relevant bits of this suggestion in place. :)

    6. skyline*

      For my most recent hire, I provided:
      – Plant, chocolate, and welcome card at desk
      – 1:1 meeting to begin orientation – went through some basics, and also gave them an orientation plan so they knew what was ahead (included future topics for discussion, key dates/meetings/trainings, etc)
      – Tour of building and introductions to colleagues
      – Unstructured time on their own so they could get to know their team (they are a supervisor)
      – Transition resource binder that was put together but the previous person in the position before they left

      The team planned a welcome lunch for their new boss. I took the individual out to lunch with some peers later in the week.

    7. Calliope~*

      In m company, we get an extremely detailed training schedule for our first four weeks, with a point by point list of What We Need to Know to be able to do this job, with the name of the person within our organization who is responsible for providing said training and a place to sign off when completed. Its four pages long (landscape print). Starts with the HR stuff, moves to shadowing someone experienced in the position, then the nitty gritty of the job itself. Case notes, client tracking, resume building, job coaching (for clients), job developing, etc.

      For me, I feel shadowing is extremely valuable with the work we do; if the position lends itself to having a mentor put in place, I highly recommend doing so. My mentor pretty much ignored me so now that I’m in a position where I’m currently mentoring three newer employees, I take that role seriously.

  121. Terra*

    Our first interview of the morning just showed up over an hour early, which means that the conference room booked for his interview still has a meeting in it and I had to jump off my conference call to deal with him. How early do you think is too early to show up for an interview and what do you do with someone who shows up way too early?

    2. AVP*

      That is way too early! 15 minutes is acceptable but 5-10 minutes early is better.

      Honestly if someone was an hour early and I couldn’t just meet with them at the earlier time (sometimes I would be able to, sometimes not) I would suggest they go to a coffee shop downstairs and come back closer to the time. There isn’t a waiting area in my office that’s not, like, awkwardly close to my desk and that would be uncomfortable.

    3. Sadsack*

      Not sure, but an hour is way too early! Did he realize he was early? Why did you feel compelled to meet with him right away just because he showed up so early?

      1. Terra*

        Basically our secretary is on vacation today and I’m covering for her. Our front door doesn’t open for security reasons, you have to have it opened by someone on the inside so he showed up and started knocking which was disturbing those who could hear it. So I told my conference call that I had an emergency and asked if they could hold on an minute while I dealt with him.

        I think he got some bad “market yourself” advice because he tried to give me his business card and said he came early because he “wanted to talk to some of his future co-workers and get a feel for the company” which did not go over well. One of the execs showed up and basically kicked him out, told him not to come back until his interview.

        He didn’t come back at all.

        1. Sadsack*

          Oh dear. What a disaster. I actually feel pretty bad for the guy – and you. Just all around awkward.

    4. Caledonia*

      anything more than 15 minutes is too early – any earlier and you wait in your car/walk around a bit/go and get a coffee etc

    5. Calliope~*

      I coach my clients not to show up any sooner than 10 minutes prior to the interview. They’re instructed that if they have the need to go earlier than that, to sit in their car, review their prepared interview questions, review the company information they’ve researched or meditate!

      I routinely get clients* that come to my appointments early.. used to drive me crazy and I felt obligated to wrap up what I’m doing to meet with them but I now, I use that as a teachable moment.

      With your situation, it sounds like you did what you could and yes, it sounds like he’s getting some bad advice about how to market himself, sadly.

      (*I work as an employment consultant for a non-profit agency contracted to the state.. and work exclusively with clients that are on TANF [temporary assistance for needy families], many of which have never had a job or even interviewed before so there’s a large learning curve!)

  122. SophieChotek*

    I’ve been asked to write a draft for a legal contract and need to address the issue of an owned domain name; that is an Internet Storefront or whatever. If I said “Jane Doe owns and maintains a unique domain and associated URL” would that mean an internet site that “belongs” to Jane Doe? (As opposed to a third-party site, like a blog hosted on WordPress or someone selling their stuff through Amazon)?

      1. SophieChotek*

        Mainly the idea is:
        I think 1) trying to address that Jane Doe owns/maintains/has exclusive rights to an internet domain (that is not through a third-party that has its own policies)
        2) Jane Doe operates some sort of business via that domain (sells something)

        The contract wants to differentiate between say — Jane Doe sells her stuff through a third-party (Amazon, Ebay) and Jane Doe sells her stuff through her own site and has all rights

        If a Domain name/URL are same, I guess I was thinking — maybe Jane Doe’s Store has name XYZ but her domain does not exactly match, but contract wants to clarify it all falls under Jane Doe’s purview

        And if that makes no sense that’s okay…sorry…not a lawyer…but was asked to write a draft so legal consultant would have something to work with…instead of starting from nothing

        Thanks

  123. Lily Evans*

    Does anyone have any tips (or just commiseration) for dealing with parents who low-level butt into your work life? My mom has horrible anxiety (that she refuses to treat) and it leads to her overstepping boundaries a lot. Like just now she texted me to let me know that the college I work at has graduation on Sunday and there’s a red sox game that day, so traffic will be a nightmare. And I’m just like… I know. I work here. I’m not horribly incompetent, thanks. It’s bad enough managing her anxiety and my own in my personal life, I’m tempted to make work talk off-limits. Especially when she texts me and I’m at work, I don’t want to be dealing with angry-inner-teenager mode here.

    A few weeks ago it was because I made a joke about how the basement of the parking garage I use looks like the setting for the opening scene of a crime show. It’s really as safe as you can get in the inner city, just typical basement-level creepy. This led to: “I had a nightmare about you being alone in that basement [that I’ve never seen and have only heard a single sarcastic joke about] when you get out of work at night. I wish you wouldn’t park there.” Well, mom, if I can’t park in the parking garage at work, how am I supposed to get there? I’m not actually a Harry Potter character. I wish I could just apparate to the office, but I can’t. Would you like to pay for a 1.5 hour interstate cab ride each way?

    1. Laura*

      Also in higher ed– I generally don’t discuss my work with my parents. They tend to misinterpret most things I say, and they don’t think I have a “real” job anyway.

      1. Lily Evans*

        That’s awful. My parents are just glad I didn’t become a teacher (I told that story way upthread) so it’s not the job itself that’s the problem. My mom just wishes I’d stayed in the nice, safe (mind-numbingly boring) middle of nowhere college town I’d been working in instead of taking a job in the big scary city.

        But I’ve point-blank told my mom that I’m Done discussing her worries about my job with her, so when she texts me about things I already know because I am, in fact, a competent adult who pays attention to things, it just makes me super annoyed.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Acknowledge it, but don’t validate it beyond that.

          “Traffic will be a nightmare because of red sox game!”
          “Okay.”

          “I had a nightmare, I wish you wouldn’t park there.”
          “I understand, I’m sorry that happened.” – understand, you’re not getting into why you think it’s okay, you feel safe enough, why it would be a problem for you not to do it – no explaining. You’re just acknowledging her reality to show that you’ve heard. Calmly. A bit of compassion, a bit of sympathy, and then going on about your business. If she presses you not to do it because she’s so worried about X or Y, you don’t debate her on it, you just say “Yes mom, I understand that.” and move the conversation elsewhere as soon as you can, or if you can’t get it to move, you say “Mom, I’m not going to talk about this anymore, so I’m going to go now. I’ll talk to you later.” and hang up.

          And… this is the big piece for you: You want her to acknowledge who you are. An adult who can navigate these things. But you’re not acknowledging who she is. A woman with an untreated anxiety disorder, who is going to worry no matter what you say or do, and tell you about it. So if you can shift perspective to just expect that she will always do these things, and you will simply acknowledge without debating, you can change the thing you actually have control of here in this situation. Which is you, your expectation and your response. And it will help you let go of taking this personally, as an indication of anything about you, rather than about her.

    2. Manders*

      My mom has issues with me walking around alone after dark… in a city where the sun sets at 4:30 pm in the winter. I try to avoid talking about the things I know will set off her anxiety. I also send her a preemptive text letting her know I’m fine if a crime or accident that may make the national news happens close to my home or office.

    3. Analyst*

      Going forward, make sure to undershare details of your life. She can’t worry as much if you don’t give her the fodder for it, such as no jokes about the creepy parking garage. And shut down all conversations that turn into worry-fests.

    4. Happily Anonymous*

      I assume that it’s a parent’s job to worry, and I interpret expressions of concern as expressions of love and react accordingly.

      That does NOT mean I change my behavior. It just means I respond very positively without giving any ground. “You actually had a nightmare about the parking garage? How sweet! I love that you still worry about me – thank you.”

      The key is that we all know there is NO possibility that this will change what I do. Early on, the concern would have been repeated a few times, possibly with suggestions for changes I could make. I dismissed these immediately, while repeating my happiness that someone still worried about me even as an adult – how sweet!

      It only stresses you if you let it.

    5. Temperance*

      My mom has mental health issues, too, including anxiety. I just … don’t tell her anything. Managing someone else’s mental health issues can be exhausting, so I refuse to do it.

    6. Clever Name*

      This sounds almost exactly like my mom! Her comments on my Facebook posts are almost like letters or diary entries. I usually just say, “Thanks Mom!” It helps she lives in another state. :)

  124. MuseumMusings*

    So, I’ve been offered a full time job with the museum I’ve been working at, but only for the summer and I think I’m going to accept the offer. It’s less than what I’m making as a temp, there’s some added commuting costs, but I think it’ll be worth it.

    Now, my question is, how much notice do I give the company? My manager is superb and the company is nice, except for the fact that I’ve worked there over a year and the position I’ve been temping at was supposed to open last September. The temp company has been pretty hands off, but I get the feeling that they don’t really like me (despite how much my manager says that she’d love to hire me if upper management gave her the ok). Should I do it verbally with my manager and then send an email to her and the temp company? Do I need to write a letter? Any advice would be much appreciated! :)

    1. Super Cool*

      My company uses temps occasionally and the temps notify their agency who notifies us. I think the agencies tend to prefer to be the first to know.

      1. Super Cool*

        Hopefully, they won’t just ask you to leave right away, so at least 2 weeks would be good.

  125. AnAppleADay*

    What would you do if you see a clear case of forgery on a Leave Request form? The employees supervisor DID sign off on the paper Time Sheet which included the two Sick Leave days. However, when I sent email requesting the actual Leave Request Form, I received it, scanned and emailed in five minutes flat with, “here it is”. But, the supervisor signature was clearly the employee dating and signing as their supervisor. Numbers look exactly alike and signature was an illegible curly mess vs. a jagged illegible mess.

    1. Laura*

      Take it to the manager for “confirmation.” When the supervisor finds out that it was forged, the employee will get BUSTED.

    2. Anon Moose*

      What if the supervisor authorized it, say via email, but was unable to sign it in person? That’s happened to me before.

      1. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

        It’s only forgery if you don’t have permission.

        But I’m guessing that’s not the case.

  126. memyselfandi*

    Just on the off-chance – has anyone here ever worked for the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine? I find their job descriptions a bit impenetrable and there is no information on salaries. I have an advanced degree and lots of research experience. I have been working in the public sector in a more applied setting and would like to get back to something more academic oriented. Would love to benefit from someone else’s experience.

  127. INFJ*

    Me too! Happy birthday, Alison!

    Also, I noticed and greatly appreciated that you moved the Name field below the Comment field. It’s now easier to type up a comment when I’m in the office without “outing” myself to anyone who happens to walk by and glance at my screen (especially since the Name field repopulates automatically).

  128. I'm Not Phyllis*

    “Executive Assistant” or “Office Manager” … what’s the better title and why?

    1. justsomeone*

      It depends on which is a more accurate description of the job. An Executive Assistant assists the Executives, which can sometimes include office management. An Office Manager manages the office – that sometimes includes being an EA.

      1. I'm Not Phyllis*

        Good point. My current title is Executive Assistant, but I kind of fill both roles. The other day my boss asked me which title I’d prefer, but I hadn’t given it much thought until then!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      In my experience, those describe two completely separate jobs. The Office Managers I’ve worked with generally work for the whole office—stocking supplies, working with vendors, prepping for events, supervising receptionists, etc. The Executive Assistants I’ve worked with tend to mainly support one person (a head of school, a president, an executive director) and acted as that person’s scheduler, gatekeeper, errand-runner, organizer, note-taker, etc. while also secondarily performing other duties.

    3. Graciosa*

      I think it depends a lot on the company.

      Office managers may outrank a fair number of people in smaller companies (including all the assistants).

      However, in larger companies, office managers are rarer but are likely outranked by EAs to top executives, who are presumed to speak for the executive and carry her authority.

      Anonymous Educator has a good point about each job having a different focus, so you should consider your long term career goals as well. Office managers can have managerial responsibility and EAs typically don’t, despite their power and status when supporting key executives. What jobs do you foresee in your future, and which title will help you more in obtaining those future jobs?

  129. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    Desperate for some help here! I was promoted to an awesome new position in a dept that I have no direct experience in, so a lot of training is needed. The problem I’ve run into is that my trainer is probably about as relationship oriented as you can get while still being on the “normal” scale while I am as process oriented as one can get (while also still within the realm of “normalcy”). This is making for a brutal training process…

    Trainer explains things in a very big-picture way with meandering tangents. I have a very hard time taking in information this way. I end up having to ask for processes to be explained multiple time and still not understanding the actual steps to accomplish things. I’m starting to feel like every conversation/training session is a battle – with me trying to wrestle the information I need out of my trainer then I have to strain to mold that info into a shape that I can process. I know that she’s frustrated too.

    It sucks, BC I genuinely like her as a person and I actually think that we’ll work together very well (in that our strengths and weaknesses will really complement each other). A different trainer is not an option.
    Has anybody dealt with anything similar? Any ideas on how to kindly and non-judgementally request that training sessions are more direct and “procedural”? I guess this was one part rant as it feels really nice to have articulated my frustrations, but really, any advice would be welcome.

    1. Pipette*

      Can you do some shadowing sessions? It might even be useful to shadow other people in the department. Just tell her you feel it’s time to try something different. Since she is frustrated too, she will probably be up for a change in method.

    2. Graciosa*

      I think you can have a fairly direct discussion about this as long as you stay away from criticizing her training methods.

      “Trainer, I wanted to touch base with you on how I’m progressing on learning Material. I think I’ve got a good handle on the big picture aspects of the job at this point, including [specifics]. I’m a little worried that I’m not yet comfortable in my ability to [perform task]. I understand how important it is and how it fits into our mission here at NewCo, but I’m not yet confident I can [perform task] independently at the level I need for my job. Do you think we could turn our focus toward shoring up my skills in this area [before we move on to next step / during the next X time of our training]?”

      If you get a response along the lines of oh-I’m-sure-you’ll-be-fine, you can ask her to observe you attempting to perform the task and coach you on any issues.

      If / when it becomes obvious that you need help, you may be able to suggest a refresher demonstration – “But this time, would you mind letting me take notes on each step? I realize it’s automatic for you, but I want to make sure I capture this in a way that allows me to perform independently in the future – I’d hate to interrupt your work after training to ask for help when I could just check my notes.”

      You should be able to ask for training in ways that will help you learn (not just the note taking example I gave above), just keep framing it as a request for her to do X which would really help you learn the material.

      If you stray into discussions of why her training is no good for you – or your learning style, or whatever – it’s going to sound critical. Requests for her to be “more direct” or “more procedural” probably won’t help – in addition to sounding a bit critical / judgmental (she probably thought she was being direct and explaining it clearly) it doesn’t actually give her clear direction on what you need. Asking to be allowed to write down the steps, or follow a specific process through from start to finish, or have her check you performing the task under her supervision would be a bit more actionable. Requests for very specific types of help so you can master the material may work a bit better and avoid sounding critical of her natural training style.

      Good luck.

  130. Not Karen*

    We’ve discussed this on open threads before, but I’m coming to lament again: A coworker told me that I should make use of our extreme amounts of PTO and take a long vacation to a foreign country. As if PTO is the only thing needed to travel. :/

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I hear ya. I’m always told that I should go away on vacation … umm, I would if I could?

  131. HRManagerAnon*

    Say you have a manager that supervises one employee. Say that manager has told that employee that she is not authorized for overtime, but that employee still, worked 15-30 minutes of overtime here and there when there really was no need.
    Say you were auditing time sheets and found that the manager was changing the employee’s time to deny her overtime, even though she worked over time.
    Say you met with the manager and employee and the manager was “hateful” and said she had told the employee not to work overtime so she refused to pay her overtime, despite being told that she was violating labor laws. We told the manager that she could write the employee up for unauthorized overtime, but we had to pay her. She was irate.
    Would you feel that your recommendation to take away that manager’s supervisory responsibilities was out of line?

    Signed,
    Just got yelled at by big boss for daring to suggest that committing labor fraud was reason for a demotion

    1. esra*

      Ugh, what a crummy situation to be in. You’re the messenger with multiple arrows in your back.

    2. I-don't-wanna-manage*

      Not out of line at all. Her actions are against the law, she’ll end up costing the company big time if she is allowed to continue.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      That manager should probably be fired for not only exposing the company to liability, but for being a jerk about following the law after they’ve been informed that what they’re doing is ILLEGAL.

    4. Adam V*

      I personally would never trust a manager again once I had learned they had falsified timesheets.

      I would also never trust a big boss again if they yelled at me for attempting to prevent labor fraud.

    5. Observer*

      Your boss is an idiot.

      Don’t tell him that, but consider looking for a new job.

  132. Goinganonymous*

    I would appreciate some input on a sensitive situation. Bob, a former coworker from an old job is applying to a position at my new job, and he is scheduled for an interview soon. I have some concerns about his candidacy and I’m not entirely sure on how or which ones to raise with the hiring manager (who already knows that I know about Bob’s application).

    Basically, in order from most job-related to most private:

    (a) When I was contracting at Bob’s present job, he was having some kind of weird beef with a coworker, Mike. I only heard Bob’s side of the story, but even then Bob did not come out smelling of roses. It was primary school level stuff but led to them not speaking to each other and Bob not handing over data to Mike that Mike was supposed to compile. I didn’t press for details, since I thought it best to keep as far away from that mess as possible.

    (b) Bob loves to spread bad news about coworkers. As in I’ve heard bad stuff about everyone that Bob has ever worked with. Bob also likes to post passive aggressive status updates about people.

    (c) Bob is currently on sick leave for being burnt out.

    I’m 99% sure I will raise (a) with the hiring manager before the interview, but I’m uncertain about (b) and especially (c), since that’s a pretty private matter. Any thoughts or advice, especially from hiring managers?

    1. animaniactoo*

      I’d raise b but not c. B is a further indication of “does not play well with others”, and that A is not an isolated incident. C is – eh. Not necessarily related to his capability to do *this* job.

      1. Manders*

        Agreed. A and B are about Bob’s actual behavior in the workplace, and either is enough to knock him out of the running as a candidate unless your company is desperate for someone with his skills.

    2. Observer*

      C is no one’s business. Bringing it up is exactly the kind of stuff that Bob does.

      B is relevant, I think. Passive aggressive negativity about co-workers is a real issue in jobs where people need to work together, so that’s relevant.

    3. Goinganonymous*

      Thanks, you guys confirmed my gut feelings. I’ve let the hiring manager know about (a) and (b) now. But wow I feel like such a tattle tale even though I shouldn’t. My current workplace has a genuinely collaborative culture and I do not think Bob would be a good fit.

  133. esra*

    I am concerned that I am now an old, with no sense of humour. In my mid-thirties, I’m one of the oldest people on my team (really, in the top third of the smb-sized company).

    This week, an email went out from our team’s VP, saying congrats on a great week, please enjoy the snacks he brought in. Except, no snacks. Which I guessed was the joke? I thought it was a bit tacky, but whatever. Those kinds of thanks rarely happen on our team, so I thought it was a bit tactless to tie it to a joke.

    I found out later that it was actually a prank by two other people on the team, who got access to his computer and sent out the email. Which I think is super unprofessional. I am alone in this. So now I feel super old and grumpy because even my mom laughed and I was like, you don’t joke about appreciation and snacks and you don’t send out faux emails from anyone, let alone the VP.

    1. Not Karen*

      Then apparently I’m old and grumpy too; I’m in my mid-twenties.

      Incidentally, I recently read a book about a 40-something in the advertising industry commenting on how everyone else at the office was in their 20s. It was an interesting perspective.

    2. justsomeone*

      wow, that’s awful! I’m in my mid-20s and that is grossly unprofessional to me. Don’t joke about food or appreciation. Don’t sent fake emails.

    3. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Nope – I’m with you (although I’m in my mid-thirties, might I be old too?). The joke itself was tasteless, and doing it from the boss’ computer was unprofessional.

    7. enough*

      I.m sixty and would have been appalled by this when I was 18. It’s not about age it’s about maturity and professionalism.

    8. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

      I must be super old, because in my world sending an email from the boss’ account would be grounds for dismissal.

    9. SophieChotek*

      I’m in mid-30s but am pretty sure I would have been appalled at this 15 years ago.
      The snack part was tacky
      The access to VP computer is worse IMO
      Attributing something to VP that was not from him also unprofessional
      If I were VP I would be quite upset

    10. Elsajeni*

      Oh man, yeah, I’m with you. I mean, I can see how the pranksters could have meant it in a way that would be funnier — my guess would be that they thought it would be more obvious that the email wasn’t really from the VP, in which case it would have read more as a joke at his expense, right? “Can you even imagine, Wakeen saying THANKS and bringing us DONUTS.” Which seems like kind of a dangerous joke, but at least has more of a “punching up” aspect to it, rather than just coming off as a mean “Ha ha, you got excited about donuts and being appreciated? SUCKER.” But if that was the goal, it’s a prank that has to be carefully executed and played to an audience you know will see it the way you intend them to, and obviously they messed up that part.

      1. esra*

        Part of the problem, for me at least, is that it can be very cliquey here. So the VP and the pranksters are in the inner circle, but half the team is not. I was wondering, is this an in-joke that I’m just not realizing? Having such notable distinctions makes pranks really hard to pull off well. Although I guess if you were in the in group, you wouldn’t care and oh god I just realized I am basically working in high school all over again.

    12. Aam Admi*

      This happened at one of my son’s former workplaces (IT company)- the interns were all told during training that they must lock their computers or log off when they are stepping away from their desks. All employees are also encouraged to send a prank email from unattended computers to teach a lesson to the person who left the computer unlocked.

  134. justsomeone*

    Any advice on how to feel less lonely at work? Everyone at corporate in my company has their own office. Mine is at the end of a wing and the three offices that are next to me are usually unoccupied because my supervisor, director and coworker work remotely pretty regularly. So there are long stretches of time (days, even) where it’s just me, here in my windowless, grey office. I am an extrovert and I just feel so isolated. I play music all day in my office (I can’t do podcasts while I’m working, can’t focus), I’ve got art that mimics windows and I used to have a happy light (burnt out, working on replacing). I try to take frequent breaks to the lunch room for water or to check the mailboxes, but I am just feeling so alone.

    1. Paige Turner*

      I’m in a similar situation, and I agree that it’s a bummer to go to work and sit alone all day (and I’m definitely an introvert). Can you set up in-person meetings, a happy hour, or some sort of lunch get together? Even if you socialize a bit with random coworkers (ex- lunchtime walk, coffee run, etc) instead of your immediate coworkers, that might help.

      1. justsomeone*

        Goodness I wish. I would LOVE to have meetings! Lunch is about as social as my office gets, and even then it’s kinda spotty.

    2. esra*

      What’s the lunchtime/break situation? Do people eat collectively or more all at their desks?

      I’ve been in your situation before (sans office), and ended up making a regular lunch group with a few other coworkers who were feeling a little isolated.

      1. justsomeone*

        We’re encouraged to use the lunchroom, which is actually a pretty nice space. So I eat there every day at the same time. I do have some coworkers I chat with during the lunch break, but 30 minutes each day just isn’t enough to offset the other 8+ hrs/day.

        I’d kill to be in an open-office setup even if it’s just to be around other people more.

        1. Temperance*

          I’m always interested to see the differences between how people work. I love my quiet office, but I’m a total introvert. An open office is my worst nightmare.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I’m the opposite–I work in a cube farm around a lot of people who do phone support, and I would LOVE to be off on the other end alone in relative silence. It’s sometimes hard to do my work (especially when editing) with everyone talking. Headphones don’t always help.

          Maybe those offices will fill up in the future?

    3. Furniture Lady*

      Do you need to work at your desk? Or could you grab your laptop and work in a common area? I can feel the same way at work too and find that a few hours in the cafe at work perks me up. I’m still working but I get a little more human interaction and more sunshine!

      1. justsomeone*

        Sadly yes, working at my desk is my only option. I don’t have remote access, so I don’t have a laptop. I do have a nice dual-monitor setup for my desktop though.

  135. TotesMaGoats*

    I applied for a job at OldJob in a completely different department last week. They outsource HR recruitment to a company (I know the name of), so I’m hoping that the random profile view in linkedin from a person at the company means something. Please let it mean something.

    I’m still looking other places and the mood around here is slightly better but so many things are still up in the air. My boss gives no support at all of any kind, no feedback, nothing. I’m small fish for her I know but I’ve yet to hear from her if she thinks I’m going a good job. She tells other people but not me. I don’t need a lot, just the occasional “atta girl” would be nice. There is just no warmth in her at all. I need that. And I need somewhere with a plan and direction. Sigh. At least it’s friday.

  136. Be the Change*

    Happy Birthday, Alison! Thank you for all you give to the rest of us!

    I am feeling burned out on the parts of my job that I’m good at. These are “emotional labor” type things, and a lot of my job IS emotional labor for our large org and also for our little corner of it. So I don’t mind that that’s my job, it’s just feeling burned out on it. And of course the parts I’m not good at, well, I’m not good at them and so they take a lot of energy. Think paperwork tracking and recordkeeping, especially for murky processes over which I have very little control or direct access to information.

    Lots of times in the past couple of weeks I’ve found myself with an hour free, 15 things that all needed to get done, and…. I was so unfocused and bummed out that I maybe managed to do one partial thing.

    Don’t even know if I’m asking for advice or simply needed to write and get a handle on what’s happening. TGIF.

    1. ASJ*

      Can you take a vacation? You sound like you desperately need some downtime to just recharge.

  137. snowball*

    How to handle this (sometimes my manager thinks I overreact and I am not sure if I am):

    I have a training manual as one of the items I am accountable for. An edit needed to be made to make the training manual more clear. It was on my to do list.

    My manager went ahead and made the change today, and notified me after the fact.

    I am a little thrown off by this…she didn’t say, “Hey, I have some extra time and I thought I would make this change” (sidenote: she doesn’t have extra time…she’s putting out a fire!). She did it and told me afterward.

    Thoughts?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I wouldn’t overreact too much. There could be any number of reasons why she decided to do it right then. I would say that perhaps it wasn’t high enough up on your to do list and that it wasn’t done was bothering her (for whatever reason). Maybe it’s a case of her not telling you exactly how important this was to be done or having different work styles.

      She’s your manager, if she wants to update a SOP that’s well within her rights to do. I’d probably check in on assignments to make sure you understand clearly what her priority is for those assignments. If she’s not being clear, nail her down about it.

      I know my work style tends to be get the tiny, piddly stuff done first and then work on the big/longer/more complicated things. If that’s her style, I bet she’s thinking “why is snow just not doing this? It takes two seconds.” Knowing I’ve got tiny assignments hanging out drives me crazy and makes me work slower, so I knock them out. That’s why I’m always the first one to reconcile my work credit card. I hate having that hang over me and it really only takes a few minutes. FWIW.

      1. snowball*

        It’s been on my to do list since Wednesday…not too long.

        We are hiring with a June start date…the deadline to make the change would be in a few weeks.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I’d give her the benefit of the doubt that there was actually a reason it needed to be done more urgently, and if anything simply respond by saying you hadn’t realized it was so urgent, can she update you on why it was?

          1. Snowball*

            The update is that nobody I work with is good at communicating and we both assumed it was our to do without checking (based on conversations we each had seperately with her manager).

            I left out a lot of info but we co-lead a department. I am second but i have the technically knowledge…often we work together really well but sometimes we don’t.

  138. Paige Turner*

    If anyone makes it to the bottom of the thread here, I was hoping someone knows the answer to this- I live in Maryland and work at a client site in Maryland for a company based in Virginia. There are a few differences in employment law and requirements for vacation payout between the two states. Which state’s law applies here?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      If it was the other way around, I could say for certain that MD law applies but I’m not sure about Virginia. I’d say it’s the law for whatever state the HQ is in. But it’s also Maryland and while Hogan is doing a great job of getting rid of O’Malley’s crazy taxes, there is still a long way to go.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Not a lawyer.

      Do you work at office based in Virginia, except currently are at client site in Maryland?
      Or have you always worked remotely from Maryland for company based out of Virginia?

      If former, maybe Virginia
      If latter, I would think Maryland–based only on my own experience that I work remotely for a company and in terms of employment law when someone was laid off, that person was subject on employment laws of her home state, not the state where HQ is (which probably would have been better for her, becuase it is CA.)

      1. Paige Turner*

        Thanks for the input! I never go to Virginia except for really rare (like once a quarter) meetings, and that’s actually me going to another company’s office (yay the complications of DMV federal subcontracting, woo!).

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      It’s actually pretty straightforward: employment law applies for the state in which you work. You live and work in MD, so MD law applies unless you have a contract that specifies otherwise.

  139. InterviewFreeZone*

    Happy birthday fellow Taurus!

    I’m wondering if anyone else is searching at this time of year and noticing that things seem really slow? I’m focusing on non-profit/higher ed roles for the most part and my usual response rate of 25-40% has plummeted to 0.

    Separately also looking for some advice on how to handle another situation. I accepted a new job in the fall. I was so excited – seemed like my dream job. Interview process was short, but involved a lot of work on my end. Job ended up being a nightmare. I had written on here before about being undermined and despite getting some decent advice, it didn’t stop. Unfortunately I found out that it funneled all the way up to our CEO (small company of about 20 people). They were setting me up to fail, mocking me behind my back in a really cruel fashion (about my appearance, my weight, my sexual orientation, etc), and playing dumb every time I tried to address the issue so we could move on. If you’re wondering how I know this for sure, unfortunately I literally saw it all in writing and some interns confirmed it.

    For the sake of my health, which was deteriorating along with my self-worth, I had to move on. Unfortunately I wasn’t able to find a position first. The schedule was a minimum of 60-70 hours a week and very client-heavy. I actually had to withdraw from an interview process because I couldn’t schedule a final interview. I connected with the hiring manager after the fact and he said he was disappointed because I was the frontrunner.

    Upon negotiating my exit, I did get some severance, but I’m troubled by something else. The CEO said it wasn’t my fault and that he was going to tell people my work was contract and planned to be short-term. He’s already started telling people that, so I feel unsure of how to proceed. I really don’t like lying, but now I’m in a position where I might have to correct people and say he was actually lying. Any suggestions? I’m already a little down on having to explain why I had such a short stay, but I’m a little unsure of how to approach him insisting on telling people this situation was a contract gig.

    1. Paige Turner*

      Your previous job sounds awful :/ In response to your question, did you leave another job to go work for that one, or were you unemployed? If you tell an interviewer that you took a contact job when you were unemployed, that makes sense; but it might sound odd to say that you left a FT job for a job that you knew would be short-term. If you feel like it would hurt your chances when interviewing to say that the old job was contract, then you could contact the CEO and ask that he not say so if reference checkers contact him. I’m not sure who he’s already said that to, but if someone asks you directly, you can say something like “We had different goals for the position” (or something else?) instead of “he’s lying.”

    2. LAI*

      I don’t have any advice about the last part but as far as hiring in higher education being slow, it’s probably the time of year. I work at a college and we are currently in the middle of final exams, commencement, new students getting admitted, etc. It’s a really hectic time of year. It will calm down for most offices in a few weeks and people will have time to start focusing on other things.

      1. InterviewFreeZone*

        Exactly. I worked in higher ed for many years and I remember us coasting without filling positions until late August or September.

      2. Laura*

        Same here at my university. Commencement has just ended but now the higher-ups are taking well-earned vacations. Hiring processes in my department are being put on hold for a month or so.

  140. Brett*

    About 2 1/2 months into new job, and my boss just informed me that he wants to move me from contract to permanent full-time in the next 6 months. (Typical for this company is around 4 years to do that.)
    And… once I move, promote me to a management position. It would be my first time ever having direct reports!
    Any advice on how to prepare for this possibility in the next six months? Already trying to spend more time working with my other team members and get to understand their skill sets better.

    1. fposte*

      Brett, you will rock this. I am so glad you’re finally in a place that sees your capability. You’ve probably absorbed most of what you can in advance just from reading here; get Alison’s management book to round it out.

    2. SL #2*

      As someone without direct reports, I will say that I’ve learned so much about what a good manager is like just from reading this blog. And I can see traits in my own boss that line up to what we talk about here when we talk about good bosses and good companies. You’re already more prepared than a good number of people out there. Keep doing what you’re doing!

  141. The Cosmic Avenger*

    That manager should probably be fired for not only exposing the company to liability, but for being a jerk about following the law after they’ve been informed that what they’re doing is ILLEGAL.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Oops, I wrote this as a reply to HRManagerAnon above. I’ll copy it there.

  142. Salary Negotiation Blues*

    Had a stellar job interview with a govt agency for a role that advertised a salary range that started way below what I currently make and ended above what I currently make. Made it to first offer and they wanted to pay at the start of the range. This btw is also lower than the current market rate for the job in my geographic area. I submitted paystubs showing what I do make in order to get a higher offer – at least get something at top of the range that was higher than what I currently make. I really like the team that I was going to join so was considering that if the next offer was a match or barely higher to what I am making at current job to take it as the all the opportunities for growth there were worth the lack of movement in pay. Got the 2nd offer back from them, it was still lower than what I currently make, so low that I wouldn’t be able to pay bills. Told them I decline the offer unless they are able to match or exceed what I currently make. They told me they will get back to me.

    This is making me question if I should even bother taking the position now that they offered something so low even after I shared with them my pay stubs. A friend told me to just walk away, but the team is pretty awesome. I want to work with them, but I also don’t want to work somewhere that isn’t at least willing to pay me market value or is that how government jobs are?

    1. misspiggy*

      In the UK, published salary ranges for government jobs typically go up to what you would make after several years, and you would never expect to get offered the top of the range at the start. You might need to decide which is more important to you, the job or the salary, and act accordingly, but I wouldn’t be fed up with government recruiters for offering low salaries. It’s common for government salary scales to be very inflexible, and often it’s accepted that you get other benefits instead of salary.

      1. Salary Negotiation Blues*

        I’m in the US, but it sounds like it may be the same here regarding the range. I wish I knew that before starting the interview process with them as after the last conversation I had with them makes feel like I’m wasting their time due to my naivete about government hiring practices.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Things to consider: Do any of the benefits offset the salary (i.e., paying little to no health insurance there vs more where you are)? Do you have the feeling that they’d hold back raises/advancement to recoup an “upfront” salary in their mind?

    3. GooseGirl*

      It has generally been my observation that Federal and State Jobs generally pay less than their non-Federal and State counterparts. This is just how it is. The advantages can be massive, but the salary is usually less. I would be surprised to be offered anything much above the minimum starting range at a government position with a range. And managers and hiring people often have very very little room to negotiate things like salary.

      I would look at other benefits. In Alaska, where I was employed,the retirement, health benefits, vacation and strong Union representation balanced out the pay. It might not in other places, but that’s something you’ll need to assess for yourself.

    4. Owly*

      Totally normal. I got an offer at my lowest possible pay grade and negotiated up. I think they just automatically go for the minimum to save money. My pay stubs didn’t even really make a difference since I almost doubled my salary going from an academic postdoc to a full time researcher. It also took over a month to get my final offer so be patient and don’t take anything personally. It’s just the government.

    5. AnotherFed*

      Be patient – everything goes slower with federal hiring. If you have another round of negotiations, make sure you emphasize all the relevant experience you have that would justify you starting higher in the pay band.

      Keep in mind – it’s pretty reasonable to get to the mid point of the salary range (assuming you have relevant experience), but it’ll take pretty much an act of god to get more than the 75th percentile. Government jobs do tend to pay less, but the stability and benefits are supposed to offset that.

  143. Rita O*

    Hi everyone! I’m a first time commenter, long time lurker. I had a couple of questions for the engineers out there. I’m currently in my final year of college, and still haven’t found an internship. Is it too late to still pursue one?

    Also, although I’ll be working hard to try and get an internship soon, how much more difficult do you think it’ll be to find a job as an engineer without an internship? I’m a civil engineer, and will be attending grad school after college if that changes anything!

    1. badger_doc*

      I did not have an internship but my plan was to go to medical school. I did have a ton of lab experience and engineering design experience though, so I think that helped. It is definitely not too late to pursue one! It helps getting your foot in doors and has a possibility of being extended a long term offer of employment. We hire juniors and seniors for our internship program where I work so it is not unheard of. Not 100% sure for civil, but I am sure others will chime in. Good luck!

    2. LC*

      I found an internship late in the game last summer to fill my time between college and grad school. But it may be hard to get a formal, paid internship, as those often have earlier application seasons. I think your best options are to (a) look (or ask for!) unpaid internships or (b) exploit any connections you may have through family, friends, or faculty.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Definitely keep trying to find an internship! You’ll probably want to do another one if your grad school program is 2 years. Engineers have a pretty good job market, but it’s still easier to find a job if you’ve got an internship or two to show that you’ve had some useful experience. Capstone/senior design classes and research can help fill that gap, but just aren’t as good.

      Internships are also really, really useful to help you decide what you do and don’t want to do. Engineering is a broad field, plus even things you think will be awesome can turn out to be wrong for you once you have to do them every day.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Forgot to add – talk to your professors with industry experience about an internship. If you have a good academic record with them, they may be wiling to help you by introducing you to former colleagues and college alumni who’ve kept in touch or by pointing you to programs you haven’t thought of yet.

  144. WelcometoMe*

    Calling all freelancers (and possibly lawyers)!
    I’m just starting to freelance and was told by multiple lawyers/ friends that I should form an LLC to protect myself from liability. I’m not sure this is the right move for me but have just begun researching. Mostly I’m worried about having to continue paying the taxes on the LLC even if I stop making money from it. I know a lot of people incorporate in Delaware to avoid that, but it seems a bit shady since I’m in New York. Does anyone have experience with this? I’m still debating whether I want to pursue full-time positions (so only freelance in my spare time) or pursue freelancing full-time, which I think is part of my hesitation as well (not sure if I want to spend the money to incorporate if I end up barely using it).

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I can only speak to a U.K. perspective, but if you trade with out incorporating you risk losing your house, car, pension and any other asset you have if some one sues you or you go bust and have to pay back any creditors. Basically there is no difference between your money and company money.

      You also make big tax savings by paying corporation tax not income tax and can write off a wider range of business expenses.

      Talk to a professional about what’s besr for your situation and ask them about filing requitments if you stop trading or only do only do a little work.

      1. WelcometoMe*

        I have spoken a bit with a lawyer and am at a point where he’s going to start charging me to talk more. So I guess I could shop around for other lawyers and maybe get questions answered there but I’ve found it all a bit overwhelming.
        Off to do more research!

    2. misspiggy*

      I’m a UK freelancer selling only services not goods, and have decided not to go the incorporation route. I’ve got professional liability insurance from a specialist broker, and am happy not pretending to be a company simply to reduce my tax bill. But if I were selling stuff I’d made, I’d probably approach it differently.

      1. WelcometoMe*

        Thanks! I only recently heard that liability insurance exists, so maybe I’ll start with that for some peace of mind while I weigh my options.

    3. neverjaunty*

      Go talk to a lawyer in your state who specializes in helping people incorporate or set up LLCs. (Lawyer/friends are not the same.) New York has a state bar referral service you can contact; usually these kinds of services let you chat with an attorney for free or a very small initial fee.

    4. Temperance*

      Okay I don’t know a ton about Delaware, but it’s easy to open up a business there if you have a mailing address, IIRC. It’s not really shady. You should protect yourself – you don’t want to get sued personally and lose everything you own.

  145. Furniture Lady*

    I really need some advice – a former employee of mine (we both still work at the same place but I’ve moved to a different division) is really going down a bad path. She does the minimum required, has a “not my job” attitude and definitely complains to her team about her current manager and company directives.

    None of this is my business but she’s actually a really bright person with a lot of potential and I like her personally. Sadly, she’s a little immature and not super self aware so she isn’t seeing how her actions are hiring her. Higher ups are definitely noticing – our President actually mentioned it to me. Compounding the issue is that her current manager realizes there is as issue and chooses not to manage it – he’s kind of lazy and conflict averse.

    I now this isn’t my problem but I’d hate to see her lose her job (that could definitely happen) or sabotage herself with future opportunities. Should I say something to her as a mentor/friend? Or leave it alone? (If it helps, none of this was an issue when I managed her but we had a great relationship and I wasn’t afraid to lay down the law when needed). Thank you!!

    1. Adam V*

      If you’re friends, you could take her out to coffee and tell her “listen, I don’t know if this is really my place, but I’m hearing a lot of murmurs about you around the office. I feel like some people are starting to think you’re not buying into the company direction, and I’m worried it could affect your long-term standing here” or something to that effect.

      (If she protests and says something like “it’s nothing like that”, you should point out that you’re not even in the same division anymore and her name is making its way through the grapevine across the company to you.)

    2. animaniactoo*

      I’d do a check-in with her: “Is everything going okay?” If she says no, ask what’s going on, listen, be sympathetic, and then say “I want you to know that the reason I asked is because I’ve heard some comments on your performance, so I’m sorry to hear about this, but would you like to talk about what you might be able to do, resources, etc. that can help while you’re dealing with this?”

      On the other hand, if she says “Everything’s fine.”, I’d come back and say “Alright, I just wanted to check because you seem to be pretty down about the job lately, and I don’t know if you’re aware that there are starting to be comments on your performance/attitude that are leaking outside of your department. Just as a head’s up.”

      If she wants to talk to you about it in more detail, fine, if she doesn’t, fine. If she reacts angrily, that may be the point when you either choose to let her burn her own bridge, or you say something along the lines of “Jane, stop. This is what the company is doing, has been doing, and will continue to do. Fergus may have a different management style than I do, but that doesn’t give you free reign to choose how much you do of what gets asked of you. If you’re not happy here, I’d support you looking for another position, but I think it would be a shame for you to end up in a situation here where you got fired and/or damaged your work reputation. I’ve brought this to you as a friend so that you understand how you are being perceived and can choose what to do about it. But if you are really doing the minimum required work and nothing more, then what you’re doing IS a problem from a professional standpoint. That’s my opinion as a manager. Take it for what you will.”

      1. Furniture Lady*

        I like this! I want to be conscious of not appearing to undermine her current manager but I also hate to see someone ruin what could be a promising career. I truly think she believes she’s untouchable and that is definitely not the case!

        1. animaniactoo*

          Yes, it looked to me like you don’t want to imply in any way that her manager is part of the problem. At most, you would say “I would handle this differently, because that is what works for me.”

    3. TootsNYC*

      please do say something to her.

      Take her to lunch, or a coffee, off the premises. (close to the end of the day might be best)

      Say, “I consider myself to be on your team, and things are happening that I feel an obligation to warn you about. Our company president mentioned you to me the other day, and it doesn’t bode well.”

      Explain the concept of “you could greatly benefit from managing your reputation.” Don’t make it “you should” or morality, or “a good employee”; make it about the science of it all, cause-and-effect. “When you do these things, other people decide this about you.” Make it about wisdom and savvy, and acting in one’s own best interests, and long-term interests. Make it about her being selfish (i.e., it’s a good kind of selfish to suck up to the office place until you can get out) and looking out for herself.

      And encourage her to look for a new job; this one’s going sour, and she’s not happy, so it’s time to get out because she will do better when she’s not this miserable. Financially, etc., better off. Offer to be a reference for her.

      Sometimes people hold on because they think they can’t quit. Or that they have to fix it before they giv eup on it. And they can’t see how bad it is for them.

      Also make sure she knows that any places she’s venting are absolutely NOT safe places.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Having been in her position due to burnout, I would say definitely say something, but then let her incorporate it or not. Don’t nag her about it. Once you’ve pointed it out, it’s up to her to do something about it.

  147. Another English Major*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I’m looking to update my wardrobe with vests/waistcoats but I’m having a hard time find them online and in stores. Any suggestions on where to find them for women?

    I’m looking for vests as separates or as part of suits kind of like what Maggie Gyllenhaal wore in The Dark Knight. I’ll post a link in the next comment. I’m in the U.S. Thanks!

    2. Another English Major*

      and Happy Birthday Alison! I missed that the first time I was commenting.

    3. Manders*

      I LOVE waistcoats. Every once in a while I see some floppy open-fronted vests in stores like Forever 21, but to get the button-up style I like, I usually have to go thrifting.

      1. Another English Major*

        Yes! Thrifting is how I found all the ones I have now but even that tends to be an endless search :)

    4. Lizabeth*

      The trick might be to go see a tailor/seamstress about custom; that way you get to chose the fabric instead of settling for what’s out there. Or if you sew yourself, once you have the basic fit/muslin down, time to go fabric shopping….

    5. Tex*

      Awhile back, Uniqlo had some with matching skirts trousers for their Carine Roitfeld collaboration. They looked sharp, but sizing maxed out at about a size 10. Maybe you can find those items on Ebay?

  148. Nedra*

    Anyone have any advice on this?

    I am waiting on a written job offer. We have a verbal agreement, but I am still waiting on the written offer and it’s been a month. I had asked whether they might offer a waiver bonus, since I will be on my husband’s medical plan. When I checked in this past Monday (over 3 weeks since the verbal agreement), they said that the reason they were waiting is that they are waiting to hear back from the executive on whether they can offer a waiver bonus.

    I really just want to know for sure that I have the job — I had asked about the waiver bonus because my husband had suggested it since we won’t be using my employer’s insurance — which they would normally cover at 100% for employees. But since it is causing all these delays, should I write back and say let’s just forget about it and move forward with the paperwork? If not, when should I check in again? (Either way, the start date of the position isn’t until late July.)

    1. animaniactoo*

      Hmmm. I wouldn’t be so fast to give it up. You might write back and say “Okay, thanks for letting me know. I’d like to be sure that you’re aware this isn’t a requirement on my part, and if it’s a problem I’m fine to proceed with out it. I’m really looking forward to working for Teapots Inc.”

      But – I would also be really really cautious about giving up 100% employer covered insurance anyway. At a minimum, it can act as secondary insurance to cover whatever your primary doesn’t cover, and life could happen in ways that mean you and your husband lose the coverage of his medical plan. Not having to worry about health insurance in a situation like that can quite literally be a lifesaver.

      1. Nedra*

        Thanks– I hadn’t thought about having secondary insurance! To be honest I didn’t even know that was a thing!

        1. animaniactoo*

          Oh yeah, it’s totally a thing. I know somebody who had very major surgery and paid about $200 in the end, because the secondary covered what the primary hadn’t (including the primary’s deductible and co-pays).

        2. i'm anon*

          Ask for insurance documents for the plan and look at the coordination of benefits provisions.

  149. Impatient on a Friday Afternoon*

    Hey everyone, I have a very important question: How do I make the phone ring faster? I’m waiting on a call about a possible offer!

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Start eating something chewy or very messy. The harder it is to answer the phone the more likely it is to ring.

  150. Kas*

    Does anyone happen to know of an advice column similar to AAM, but by and for people working in an academic setting? Dealing with your boss’ students, coping with your position being contingent on soft funding, that sort of thing?

    1. Shelly*

      Sadly, no, but if you find one….. I’d love to read it. :)

      Closest I am aware of is “The Professor is IN” and for librarians there was once a great blog called, “Hire Librarians”, but I think it is shut down now.

    2. AnotherTeacher*

      The Chronicle of Higher Education has forums for various topics in higher education.

        1. Sophia in the DMV*

          I don’t think many people participate in those fora. To be honest, I’m a TT faculty member and get a lot out of reading this site. For specific questions you can ask in the open threads BC there are a fair number of academics who read and comment here

  151. Cecily*

    It’s Sh*tty Coworker Time at my Sh*tty Chain Restaurant Job! She is an in shopper, and has a Thing against one of my courier coworkers, and we’re really not sure what! We (the couriers) were talking about it and when I relayed who to one of the latecomers to the conversation he was like “Oh, you mean the one who’s really mean and terrible at her job?”

    Basically, she thinks he smells REALLY REALLY BADLY, when he doesn’t in relation to all of us who are on our bikes all day in the now-sometimes-hot weather. Like, there’s only so much you can do, and everyone else in the store understands that. We’re all really not sure why she’s fixating on him when there is only one courier who is actually bad at personal hygiene and it’s not him. When she first brought it up she got super in his face about it, while he was polite, and he ended up getting some heavy duty scented deoderant because… he’s super nice and doesn’t want to cause anyone trouble. But then That Wasn’t Enough and he’s just like f*ck it whatever man.

    The other day she asked me to spray Febreeze on her because he bumped into her. Like, what?? We also have a really tiny kitchen, and she yells at people who inevitably bump into her, and that happens to everyone because it’s a REALLY TINY KITCHEN. That happens to ME all the time, the person who is the size of a scrawny twelve year old!

    Anyway, I’m pretty sure she’ll self select out and quit. We’re a pretty tight knit group, gotta be to cope with Sh*tty Chain Restaurant Jobs, and that’s not unusual if someone really doesn’t jive with the already existing group, or like they transfer or something. I do wonder though, we’re a pretty affectionately snarky group, so I wonder if she’s mistaking snark for actual meanness and trying to fit in? Still terrible though, people are good about dropping any personally directed snark if the receipient isn’t cool with it, and she’s CLEARLY not doing that.

    1. Temperance*

      Okay that’s really awkward, but most couriers smell bad because of the physical nature of the job. I mean, who the fuck cares?

  152. Pomato*

    I’m asking on behalf of a friend who’s at the end of her wits– she really doesn’t know what to do.

    She works in a large corporation, and people in the HR department have been behavior extremely unprofessionally toward her. Strangely enough, it only seems to be people from HR who act like this. She’s very pretty, and a number of the men from HR have come around and hung out at her office (she’s in a completely different department) and flirted with her, asked her out, followed her to the copier, etc. with various degrees of creepiness. She turned them all down– workplace shenanigans aren’t her cup of tea. But she’s heard (from the HR guys, hilariously enough) that the couple of women in HR really do not like her and consistently submit complaints about her being too flirty, too friendly, and at one point, for going on dates with other employees. She keeps getting called into supervisor’s office for these complaints, they turn out to be unfounded, but it’s a massive waste of her time and occasionally one of the complaints will stick and she’ll get written up for something small and petty like pants too tight, demeanor too flirtatious, etc.

    When it’s HR behaving inappropriately, what can you even do? What kind of steps are appropriate to take? She’s very much a DON’T MAKE WAVES sort of person, but the harassment is getting ridiculous.

    2. i'm anon*

      Document, document, document, take up the food chain and say the words “sex discrimination.”

  153. KatieKate*

    Really late to the party but I just a GREAT first round phone interview for a job I wasn’t excited about until I talked to the director and we both got excited about each other so !!!!!! Basically I am starting the weekend off right :):):):)

  156. Anonsie*

    Probably too late but I’ll try. I wanted to reach out to some recruiters at Big Multinational Company on LinkedIn, but I can’t figure out who is appropriate to contact. They have field positions in many, many places they have no actual offices, and actual offices all over the world. So I’m having a hard telling if, say, Dan in NY is the guy to talk to for field positions in PA, where there is no actual office but there are field operations. The couple people whose profiles I’ve glanced through don’t say which regions they recruit for, but there are *tons* of these recruiters (huuuge company, I think 50k employees worldwide minimum) and I don’t know if digging through the LinkedIn profiles of as many as I can find is a very smart idea.

    I’m wondering if I should just contact one and say “I’m looking in xyz city and abc region” and hope they’ll be cool if that’s not where they operate, or if this will make me look poorly researched?

  157. Cruciatus*

    Am I the only one that doesn’t need to know what everyone thinks about me at work? I work at a school in a college (for the last 10 months) and our interim director wanted an unofficial survey of himself and office staff (of which I am a part of). He wants to see how he’s doing and it may help him prepare for whether he officially throws his hat in the ring for the director position. I was hoping never to see the results but he handed individual results to us today. Comments were almost exclusively (anonymously) from faculty. Almost all were positive but of course I focus on the few that aren’t. And most of them are things beyond my control, but they don’t know that (or don’t care) so I’m getting dinged for them. And of course I can’t tell who says it so I can’t really fix the issue. One said I need to work on my demeanor when dealing with faculty and staff despite the fact that almost all comments were “Cruciatus is great!” And one said “Cruciatus is really trying but….” Yikes! This has nothing to do with our performance reviews which are just with our supervisor and director. I already hated how lengthy the performance review process is and now this. The director loves results and numbers though (he wrote a book on it!) but I just wish I could have thrown the envelope away. I will always continue to do my best for faculty (or anyone) so not knowing wouldn’t have changed anything. Maybe I’m approaching this wrong but if there was a problem from faculty, surely my supervisor or the director would know and tell me and talk about it with me. Their opinions matter most I think. Ahh well. I will have to work on focusing on the 90% positive….

    1. ASJ*

      This… sounds so odd to me. I work at a university and I would be soooo uncomfortable if the manager of my office requested this, regardless of how positive the feedback was.

      I agree that you should work on focusing on the positive, but obviously that’s not always easy. And since 90% of the feedback was positive, I would be more inclined to attribute the two(ish) negative feedbacks as people who were having bad days and/or people who don’t know how to give positive feedback and/or people who are frustrated that you wouldn’t bend the rules for them (depends on your position, but I know this would really taint any feedback to my office – faculty get really mad that they, too, have to follow the rules).

      I mean, by all means loosely analyze your behaviour and make sure you’re being your best customer service self, but don’t dwell on it. That won’t help anyone.

  158. Jules the First*

    I am currently 57 hours into my work week (counting only productive fingers-on-keyboard time, so add another 12 hours commute and the odd tea break) for the first time in two years, and looking at putting in another 8-10 hours tomorrow.

    I’m exhausted. I cannot believe I used to work like this all the time – no wonder I had no life!

  159. Christopher Tracy*

    I got a surprise $2600 bonus today at work!

    Every year in May, my division gives their employees a special bonus based on the division’s performance in the prior year. This is separate from the profit sharing bonus the company mandates our divisions pay us based on the division and company as a whole’s financial performance in the prior year (those checks go out in March).

    Well because I just started working in this division in mid-January, I didn’t think I would be eligible for it. But my manager told me since I worked for the company last year, even though I was in another division, they decided to give me the bonus too. I was stunned and very happy. This bonus comes direct from our division President, and I’ve only talked to this guy once for five minutes two years ago when I was in my training program and working with this division for a couple of weeks. So I know my manager and his boss, the AVP (and the guy who hired me), had to have gone to bat for me to get this bonus because none of the new people we hired this year got that bonus.

    What a great way to kick off the weekend :)

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Thanks! And unfortunately, this money’s going into savings because I obliterated that account this year (I’ve been treating myself too much apparently, lol).

  160. PersistentCat*

    Hi all!

    So about a month ago was the post about the woman who wanted to be a manager & hadn’t been promoted yet. In the comments thread was a great question for the Friday open thread about what advice/books and the like would you recommend for people who want to be managers or are first time managers. As a first time manager, I would love to hear people’s thoughts on this. Sorry if it’s been asked already, I’m on my phone and haven’t seen it.

    1. skyline*

      My usual recommendations are:
      – The Leadership Pipeline by Charan
      – Crucial Conversations by Patterson et al
      – Crucial Accountability by Patterson et al
      – Good to Great by Collins

      I also think some general reading on emotional intelligence is helpful. Management is ultimately about getting work done through others, so it’s a people business. Any reading that develops your interpersonal skills (especially in the areas of communication and conflict resolution) is pretty helpful.

  161. Amanda K.*

    How do you define ‘seniority’ at a job? Is the person who started earlier more senior? Or someone with more experience in general? If you’re in the exact same job role, I view that as being equal. However, I have a coworker that is trying to pass off tasks to me, and all of them are mundane parts of our particular role. I feel like she’s trying to treat me like her support person. She started only a few weeks before I did.

    1. enough*

      Unless she is your supervisor or your boss/supervisor told her to give you work to do there is no seniority as it applies to the described situation. Seniority has 2 definitions. One signifies a superior position (your team leader, manger, etc) that can/does assign work. The other relates to time in position or company, usually matters in union situations and factors in layoffs involving 2 equivalent people.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Only a few weeks does not make someone senior enough to use you as a support person, but talk to your boss and make sure that you’re really not expected to do some of those tasks for this other person.

      Seniority in the same job just means more time in that position, so yes, this coworker is technically senior to you, but not meaningfully so.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Even if she had actual seniority (several years instead of several weeks) over you, that doesn’t give her the right to assign work to you. Only your manager assigns work to you—unless your manager says “I’ll assign work to you, but sometimes [coworker] can also assign work to you. You cannot assign work back to her.” Without that explicit instruction, no matter how much older, how much more experienced, how much longer she’s been at the company, she is not your supervisor or manager and cannot just assign you work.

  162. Anxa*

    Random Job Search Confession:

    I just applied for the wrong job :(

    Apparently the reason I was having trouble with a local company’s upload process wasn’t just because .pdfs were acting wonky on my computer (of course, just in time to work on applications). Nope, the job had been removed before I had closed that window (there was no deadline posted). So now I have this gushing cover letter posted one position, and I uploaded it under another (one I have no qualifications for).

    While I don’t expect to be considered for this position, I really do help I haven’t embarrassed myself too much, and taken myself out of the running permanently for not thinking to open a new browser and be more careful or rashly uploading my application instead of waiting until next year (or whenever it reposts).

    1. ASJ*

      I wouldn’t stress yourself about it. I doubt anyone will look at your cover letter or application too closely; it’s more likely they’ll be screened/thrown out and your moment of unthinking will be remembered only by you.

  163. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

    Thanks to all of you and AAM, I did it! I got a job!

    I’m a real librarian now, guys :)

    2. LotusEclair1984*

      It is a super tough job market out there in our field – still – so major congratulations!

  164. Stressed anon*

    Agh, too late. Probably no one will see this now, but – has anyone been involved in a workplace investigation before? The kind where an independent investigator (lawyer) is drafted in to investigate bad behaviour and/or workplace dysfunction.
    (To be clear, I’m not under investigation myself)

    1. AnotherFed*

      Yes. Just answer questions factually – what you saw, what you heard (and who from), and when. Try to keep feelings out of it (unless it’s about assault/harassment, in which case they need to know if you felt threatened by the environment).

      It’s actually really important to get the peripherally involved people’s testimony. We found out that one person (who was being investigated for something else) had actually been forcing new hires to do personal tasks by telling them it was part of their job because other people responded to the ‘have you ever seen Jane do something inappropriate to or with less senior people?’ No one had realized it wasn’t one bad joke or friendly favor from someone who lived close by until the investigator started putting the pattern together from a lot of people who had seen one example and not realized it was bigger.

  165. JC Denton*

    I’m trying to decide where I want my career to go. A couple years ago, I was a team & tech lead for a company that did work I was incredibly passionate about. The work was meaningful and rewarding. The benefits and pay however, were substantially lacking. I was on a tipping point and being close to being unable to pay my bills. I applied to a bunch of major tech companies in my field. Within a few months I had an offer from a place I’ll call the Golden Teapot company. This was a company most geeks dreamed about. The job was uninteresting, but doable. It felt like a good foot in the door with amazing benefits (and a chance to pay off some bills!), so I accepted. Ironically, the prior company greatly boosted tech employee pay and offered retention incentives right as I got the offer from Golden Teapots.

    Fast forward nearly two years. Golden Teapots still has amazing benefits, but the job makes me miserable on a daily basis. I applied back to my old company in the hopes of again doing something meaningful. They responded with an offer. Now, old company – let’s call them Iron Teapots – had a salary system of pay bands. When I left I was on a lower band than the new offer. However, if I stayed at Iron Teapots, my salary today would be higher than their current offer because of how time factors into the position on the band you occupy (the bands all overlap). Also, if I was promoted at Iron Teapots (jumping onto the band I’m being offered today) – which was likely – I would have been even higher in salary than today’s offer (again based on time’s effect on the band structure). Right now the offer is less than I make at Golden Teapots and the benefits are substantially less.

    I want to negotiate. I should negotiate. My opening play is going to be the skills and experience I bring to the table, especially the experience I gained working at Golden Teapots. However, is it fair to keep my other pay arguments in my back pocket? I feel like Iron Teapots (who doesn’t remember me; they’re too large and this is a different department) low balled me. They seem to think they can get me back cheaper because they’ve offered a better *potential* pay band, despite their offer being on the lowest part of the band. Is it weak to say that if I merely stayed with them and “turned the crank” I’d be making more than what they’re offering today? I also feel like Iron’s HR department is assuming I’m unfamiliar with their pay structure (like most people outside would be) and thus think they’re giving me a good offer when really they’re offering me the bottom end.

    Is it worth negotiating on that front?

    1. Graciosa*

      I wouldn’t.

      Negotiate normally, based on your market value, rather than on the hypothetical value you might have had if you had made different choices.

      The company might reasonably point out that if you had stayed, you would have intimate knowledge of the company’s people and processes that you forfeited to go to Golden Teapots. Why should they credit you with the value that would bring when you don’t actually have it? It sounds like you want Iron Teapots to make up for a choice that didn’t turn out as you expected, which is not a compelling justification to pay you more money.

      You then have to counter by explaining how what you learned at Golden Teapots brings greater market value – which is where you would have been if you never brought your previous time at Iron Teapots up. If you start there, you don’t have the baggage of whoever is handling the salary negotiations for Iron Teapots thinking you wanted credit for a choice you didn’t make and really don’t understand how this works.

      Just discuss market compensation and the value you bring to the job with your current skill set.

      Good luck.

      2. JC Denton*

        Thanks for the advice :)

        As a bit of an addendum, Iron Teapots has a *lot* of inertia. If I did start back up again, a benefit of being a “returnee” is that I can spin back up within a couple weeks. Most brand new folks would average 3-9 months with the specialties this teapot company engages in. I don’t know if that provides a bit more clarification on why I’d want some kind of credit for having been there before. I essentially want to argue that I didn’t really lose any tribal knowledge on top of coming with more outside experience and skills.

        If that makes any sense?

        1. Graciosa*

          I understand what you’re saying, but it’s not what you should use in arguing for a higher salary.

          A company isn’t interested in paying an ongoing higher salary rate every year just because you might – *might* – manage to get up to speed a little more quickly. This is a possible one time short term benefit (possible because the company may believe – rightly or wrongly – that things have changed, and that to ensure you really do understand their current practices, they will have to fully train you any way).

          I can’t see how this would justify paying more money year after year after year because of this.

          Stick to arguing your market value.

  166. Your Friend, Anonymous*

    I have a question which gets into some legal issues, so I’m talking to a lawyer about it. But I’d also like the opinions of any hiring managers and HR people, especially HR people who handle recruiting and hiring.

    I’m experiencing retaliation at my current job. Long story short: I took an entirely legal action which was supported by my company’s HR department at the time. The laws concerning it have specific anti-retaliation language in them.

    Since then my job’s been threatened by higher ups in my company for taking this action, with witnesses around, and it doesn’t look like HR will be doing anything about it. Rather than get into a big legal battle that’ll take years and put me under a ton of stress, I just want to quietly move on with my career.

    The problem is that this is my first job out of college, and I don’t have many references. So I’m in a difficult place. I’ve been at the company for about five years and I’ve worked for a few different bosses. What I’d like to do is use them as references for the new company.

    I’ve thought of saying something like this to HR at any company I apply to: “while all the reasons I’ve given you for wanting to leave my current job are accurate, there’s another big reason. It’s because [brief description of the action and retaliation], and I’d rather just move on with my career. I can give you the name and info of some people I reported to before any of this began. If that’s not enough but you still want to continue on with the process with me, let’s talk about what other info I can give you.”

    I would disclose this after the interview process, once the potential hiring company asked me for my references. To all the HR and hiring managers out there: how would you respond to something like this? What else could I say/do?

    Of course, this might all be completely irrelevant for any number of reasons, but I’ve been losing a lot of sleep over the past week due to this. So I would be very, very, very grateful for any advice I could receive.

    1. Undine*

      What are your concerns exactly? It’s normal in the U.S. not to use your current manager as a reference, so if that’s all you’re worried about, I don’t know that you have to say anything.

      1. Your Friend, Anonymous*

        I’m concerned that my own boss might be pressured to give me a false negative reference or something, given that HR’s had an attitude of “we don’t care, go ahead and sue us.”

        I’ve been applying, and for some reason I’ve seen a lot of job applications that request current boss name and contact info. Which is why I’m worried.

    2. Observer*

      What is it that you did? I think that would make a lot of difference (even though it shouldn’t).

      Also, perhaps you should talk to your lawyer about letting your company know that they need to not lie about you to another company, because that’s a good way to lose a lawsuit.

      1. Your Friend, Anonymous*

        I feel way more paranoid than I should, but the basics are kinda like this:

        I reported some discrimination going on in my department. Basically, manager dating subordinate + attributing the work his other subordinates in the department did to her.

        He also said a lot of really nasty stuff about a Catholic subordinate because of their religion, saying this person was less intelligent and more gullible and all that stuff. Manager is one of those outspoken atheists types. I’m atheist too, but I absolutely refuse to talk about it at work. “I definitely have my own beliefs, but they are not really relevant here in the office.”

        Nothing that could be considered even remotely controversial, like, I dunno, trying to start a union or something.

  167. Joanna*

    Back to work after a few weeks holiday on Monday. I’m not sure why, but I always find going back to work after a break oddly unnerving and stressful. Anyone have any tips or tricks for settling back into work?

  168. quitter*

    Hi,

    How would you announce you are resigning after accepting another job offer, provided that your managers have high hopes of you growing within the company and being so-and-so manager in the future?

    Let’s also indicate that you have been in current job for 2 years or less.

    1. fposte*

      Not really any different than usual. Go to your manager privately (“announce” sounds more public than I would consider for this) and say, “I really appreciate the confidence you’ve placed in me, but I received an offer I couldn’t refuse, so I’ll be leaving on June 1. I’m happy to do my best to make for a smooth transition in the mean time.”

  169. Mander*

    I’m late posting, and I think that probably nothing can be done, but here goes.

    My Mom, a 65-year-old retired teacher, has been working part-time hours at a gym for the past two years or so (and she was a customer of theirs for years before she started working there). The gym in question is a national (US) chain that is specifically directed at women, especially those who are older, in poor physical shape, or who would otherwise be intimidated by working out at a “normal” gym.

    Like me, Mom is technically obese (think size 20), and always has been. Through working out several days per week, leading exercise classes at the gym, and following the gym’s diet recommendations she has lost some weight and greatly improved other more important health markers, but hasn’t dramatically changed appearance. She is a model employee in all other respects.

    Earlier this week I found out that she and another employee have been put on performance improvement plans unless they lose weight. To my knowledge there is no reason for this except that they don’t want fat ladies working for them. Apparently the franchise owner told them that they must follow a very strict low-calorie, low-carb diet and demonstrate weight loss. I’m not sure exactly what was said but it seems to have been rather rude, because the co-owner later called to apologize for the harshness of the message. But the message and the requirement still stand.

    I know that there is no legal recourse, since obesity is not a protected class in her state (Colorado). But this is just not right, and I think she should take some action beyond the vindictive social media campaign I am inclined to start. I’m not sure what that action should be. Can anyone offer any suggestions?

    1. fposte*

      The best action would be for her to get a better job at another gym. That’s the only thing that could make them sorry and benefit her at the same time.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Social media campaigns may get the gym shamed, but they will absolutely open your mum up to criticism. Even if someone is totally in the right, it’s a very risky move to make. She might not want that kind of scrutiny (even if she weren’t overweight and it were a hairstyle or other issue). It could almost certainly get her fired.

      If obesity is not a protected class, I’m not sure there’s much she can do. If she and the other workers this affects could go en masse to the manager and say, “Hey, we feel this is pretty unfair. The fact that we’re actively working to improve our health is a better selling point for this place than everybody being totally skinny. Not everyone who works out here is going to reach that goal.” Maybe it will help; maybe not.

      FWIW, I think the manager is an ass and she should think about looking for something else (and another gym to go to).

    3. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      As a fat person I would feel more comfortable working out with people who look like me. Gyms should work to expand their customer base and be more open to other body types.

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      That’s especially bad because even if she follows their strict diet and exercise plan, she may not lose weight — there really is more to it than calories in/calories out.

      I hope when she finds a better job, that lots of people follow her. Including other co-workers. I’d certainly be more comfortable in a gym where the instructors are all sizes.

  170. Tree*

    If you had to choose, which would you prefer?

    A) Finding a company that you love working for but not enjoying your role there. You love what the company stands for, you find what they do interesting, you’re proud to tell people who your employer is, you find meaning in the company mission. But you get bored with your job. Maybe you can’t advance anymore, maybe you don’t feel like management listens to you, or you don’t like some of the office politics.

    B) Finding a role that you love but at a company you don’t enjoy. You find the job challenging and engaging. You’re treated with a lot of respect. You’re given opportunities to keep developing and advancing. But the work is the only good part of the job. Everything else is mediocre. You don’t find the company interesting. You’re driven more by your day-to-day responsibilities rather than interest in helping the company succeed.

    I went from A to B recently. I feel like B is healthier because it shifted from focusing on the company’s accomplishments to focusing on my personal accomplishments, which is helping me grow so much. But I don’t want to stay in a B situation long-term. When I’m further along in my career and don’t need so much aggressive growth to climb to the top, I’d like to go back to an A situation. I feel it’s more comfortable. I’m wondering if I’m just more wired to be group-minded because I’m Asian-American, and I inherited that cultural aspect.

    1. AnotherFed*

      B, definitely. It’s normal to not love all of your job (that is why they pay you to do it, instead of making you pay them), but it’s hard to continually go to work at a job you actively dislike or are bored by. The mission can only hold most people for so long, and you could easily end up resenting the company or the mission for your misery. For me, if I’m not being challenged, I get bored and unmotivated very quickly, regardless of how important the work.

      But of mission is important to you, why don’t you keep doing whichever of A and B works for you until you can get a job that both is for a mission you support and is interesting and challenging.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I prefer A, because–unless I’m on an assembly line—I can always find work interesting. I don’t get bored at work, even if I’m stuffing envelopes or answering phones. One of my best jobs ever was A. I’m now at a job, which is a mix of A and B, mostly B, so I’m cool with it.

    3. Rob Lowe can't read*

      My last job was A, my current job is B. I think I prefer B, but not overwhelmingly. (And like you, maybe only for now?) I like that there are more opportunities for professional growth and development than I had at my last job, but it’s draining to constantly be butting up against the things I don’t like about my workplace/employer. (And those things are increasingly encroaching on my day-to-day work, which I do love – so that’s hard, too.) I kind of came to the realization this week that I’ll probably only manage another 1-2 years here, which is a little less than I’d hoped for.

  171. Cruciatus*

    I’ve been scouring the website and, maybe I’m searching poorly, but I’m looking for more info on applying to other jobs within a company–how soon can you do it? Do I have to tell my supervisor (I did see one from 2008 that said yes. This makes me nervous for my coworker who told me he has applied to other internal jobs–and I’m sure he didn’t tell our supervisor)? Above I wrote about how the director wants us to know what all the faculty think about all the office staff at a university position I have.–and I find this to be invasive or something. We already coddle the faculty, why do we need to get their opinions on EVERYTHING? They already can go and complain to the director or my boss any time they want–why are we making this easier for them?). And on Monday I have my performance review and I’m super anxious that my supervisor will bring up new problems that she hasn’t mentioned along the way (not that I’ve been problematic–but she might think so! She’s very micromanage-y and nitpicky.). I’ve only been at the school/my position for 10 months but I think about this shit too much. Even at my last underpaid job for a super paranoid employer, I never felt this watched or anxious about anything. Here it’s only 1 person doing it, but she’s making my work life miserable. I hate the amount of time I think about what I might have done wrong in my off hours. I hate being at work and constantly worried she’ll hear me make a mistake. When I open my emails after weekends or even mornings I worry she’ll have a new “note” for me about something. She writes us emails or types letters over infractions. She left early on Friday and it was just me and another coworker who feels as I do and we chatted for quite a while and now I’m paranoid that they could have bugged us or something! I know this sounds insane. I write it and I’m like “no, couldn’t be…”, but this woman! At work we’re not allowed to do anything but work (which I do realize is what I’m paid to do, but if you look out the window at something she’ll be like “We’re too busy to spend time looking at X.” Even if it was 15 seconds.

    Some faculty (in the reviews of me) even mentioned how hard my job is and one mentioned that it drove a former employee to depression! WTF! And in the last few years, no one has had the position for more than a year, though only 1 moved to another job on campus. The others left entirely. I can’t blame that all on the current supervisor since she’s only been there 2 years. I don’t actually hate my job functions, but the atmosphere in the office is just too tense. I want to stay at this college, just *not in my current department*. A position in another department opened up (pays more, deals mostly with students, not faculty) and while I think it’s too soon to apply, it really sort of opened the floodgates on how much I want out. I hope another position opens up there at maybe my 18 month mark. If that’s soon enough to apply elsewhere at a university non-faculty position…. OK, this ended up as a bit of a rant. Guess I had to get some pent up anxiety out before Monday…

  172. concerned job hunter*

    Alison had kindly answered my question previously in private (thanks, Alison!). But I just want to throw this in the open for more feedback.
    =======================
    Sending Open Resume to Competitor

    I am in a niche industry in my area, and there are not many jobs posted publicly.

    I have recently left my job without anything else lined up (3 weeks ago) and would be interested in working for my previous firm’s direct competitor 1-2 months later. By way of background, this competitor has a reputation of hiring (or poaching) people from my last company. I know tons of my ex-colleagues (all of which I am not close with and do not maintain contact) jumped ship and are currently working there.

    I have checked online, and there are currently no jobs posted at this competitor. Nothing on the careers page, LinkedIn, job boards, etc. No official venue to send open application either.

    Do you think it is appropriate to e-mail the managing director/ hiring manager directly to express politely my interest in working for her firm 1-2 months later, should the vacancy arise? I am going to attach my resume as well. The managing director’s profile and e-mail address are listed on the company website. If you need a cultural background, This is an Asian branch of a USA consulting firm.

    I have spoken to my ex-colleague who is currently working there. I was told that there is no vacancy and the competitor won’t be hiring anyone for awhile. She said there is no harm in trying but does not seem so sure about it.

    I just do not want to appear desperate for the job or worse, accidentally annoy the managing director / hiring manager and burn the bridge by sending unsolicited resume.

    Any input about how to do it with class will be appreciated.

  173. MM*

    I haven’t seen this addressed in previous posts, but I may have missed it- when applying to a job via email do you attach your cover letter and include a short paragraph saying the job you are applying for, or do you paste your cover letter in the body of the email or include cover letter in body of email and attach it as well. Thanks

  174. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Either one is fine. While different hiring managers have different preferences, no one is going to penalize you for doing it in their less-preferred way. However, putting the text in the body of the email itself does make it easier to scan quickly.

    If you attach your cover letter, then in the body of the email you’d just write something like, “I’d like to apply for the ___ position. Attached please find my cover letter and resume.” (Don’t write more than that, or now there are two separate letters that you expect me to read, which is annoying.)

    (And I’m going to have to turn this into its own post, because it gets asked all the time — but so far has always been buried in short-answer posts, which are hard to find via the search engine.)

Comments are closed.