open thread – May 27-28, 2016

by Alison Green on May 27, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,263 comments }

{ 1,263 comments… read them below }

  1. LotusEclair1984*

    First time in a full-time position as a cataloger in special collections. Working on performance self-assessment and goals. Any advice for setting goals? Does your workplace set benchmarks for productivity and/or performance evaluations? Thanks in advance!

    1. Jennifer M.*

      Do you know what the goals for your department/division are? That can help you set goals that feed in to what your team as a whole is supposed to do for the next year.

        1. Jack the Treacle Eater*

          This is really the first step – understand the organisational goals and how they relate to your department and therefore yourself.

    2. Jennifer*

      Depends on your job. I don’t know what a cataloger does, but what could you think of that would benefit you? Starting a project? Taking classes? (Usually that’s the only goal I’ve got, really.)

        1. MoinMoin*

          Ooooh I read Special Collections as some sort of debt collector. SMH, thanks for pointing that out.

          1. insert name here*

            Ha. Literally yesterday a vendor came to my library and mentioned that he’d been super confused about his meeting with “special collections” because he assumed it was the department responsible for collecting fines!!

    3. 12345678910112 do do do*

      If you’re in academia, or maybe even if you’re not, then scholarship and contributing to the librarianship profession should be one of your goals. Even putting down that you want to write a paper, attend a conference, or serve on a committee can help you get the space and money to do one of these things. And keep metrics for yourself! My department sends metrics reports out each month, and I email myself a copy that I keep in a special email folder to make my performance self-assessments easier to write at the end of the year.

    4. Donna*

      Librarian here, but not a cataloger. My workplace sets goals in terms of projects or professional development. This can be something that my organization specifically needs, something that I’ve noticed that we need to improve, or just keeping up with the latest trends.

      I don’t know much about the cataloging world of librarianship, but I personally would stay away from having too many personal productivity goals.

      If your career plan is to be a professional librarian and eventually move up within your organization, then you should select goals that benefit the whole organization, the field of librarianship, or the field you support with the special collection. One example might be learning more about the capabilities of the library management software and presenting it to other staff members. Or if the cataloging department is chronically behind, then a goal might be to research and develop some productivity metrics in conjunction with other staff members. (On second thought, maybe not—your coworkers might not appreciate a new person coming in and scrutinizing their productivity.) Maybe the cataloging procedures manual needs to be updated? Belonging to a professional organization is a must.

      I do think at the beginning of your career it’s fine to say, “I’ve learned more about cataloging X, and have therefore increased my speed and accuracy” as a self-evaluation, but if you focus too much on that aspect of your job, you run the risk of casting yourself as a worker bee rather than someone who wants to try new projects and is interested in moving up. (Although, there’s nothing wrong with being a cataloger—I know several who love what they do and aren’t interested in moving up.)

      That said, still keep metrics even if you don’t use them in your performance evaluation. Most of the world doesn’t know what librarians do all day, and occasionally we must drag out our metrics and prove our worth.

    5. Seal*

      Academic librarian and department head here. I tell my entry-level librarians to keep track of all of their achievements, letters of appreciation, professional development activities from the minute the walk in the door because they’ll need them for performance evaluations and promotion. Set up a folder on your computer and in your email if you’ve not already done so.

      Presumably your department will set benchmarks for productivity with regard to cataloging, although any halfway decent department head should know that cataloging statistics only tell part of the story. Mention any special projects you worked on, backlogs or problems you resolved, additional training you had, etc. As far as setting goals goes, don’t go overboard; 4-5 per year is plenty. Make sure they’re ALL related to work or professional development with measurable outcomes, e.g. process the Westros map collection or volunteer for the chair of the Library’s committee on teapot collecting. Goals should NOT be along the lines of “keep an open mind about my annoying coworkers” (BTW – an actual a goal a former employee actually listed on their performance evaluation).

      Finally, don’t hesitate to ask your manager or mentor for advice – they want to see you succeed and should be happy to help you with this.

      1. Another Special Collections Librarian*

        Gain familiarity with the topics of your collection if that is applicable. Try to problem solve before moving a difficult “call” to your supervisor’s desk. She has her own backlog.

        Join list-serves or Facebook groups that support your specialty.

        Join professional organizations. It doesn’t have to be ALA. Perhaps the regional or state associations.

  2. Folklorist*

    Here is your (not so) weekly ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!! Go and do that thing—or those things—that you’ve been putting off and come back and gloat! You’re no longer encumbered! I know that the Open Thread is a seductive time-suck, but it will still be here. Promise. ;-)

    1. MoinMoin*

      You’re right, I’m going….
      I’m so bad at procrastinating, I wonder why? I should go read that Wait But Why article again to figure it out….

    2. Amber T*

      I bought a place (yay!). Closing next week, actually moving the following week. Guess how much packing and prep I’ve done? This is gonna be a busy weekend…

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Congrats! I just had an offer accepted yesterday but I probably won’t close until October (renovations). I’m procrastinating at work because I’m currently obsessed with picking out fancy bathroom wallpaper.

        1. Silver Radicand*

          W00t! Congrats, Lily in NYC and Amber T! My roommates and I had a rental agreement offer accepted (a big deal due to the area, us having pets and four of us) and are moving in July. Hooray for new places!

          1. Lily in NYC*

            Thank you and congrats to you as well! It can be so hard to find a place that takes pets.

      2. anonymouse*

        I’m closing Tuesday on both current and new houses. I’ve done that same amount of packing, and we get the keys tomorrow to start moving. Caffeine, lots and lots of caffeine!
        Congrats on the new place!

    3. Hellanon*

      This is excellent timing – I am working today because the Procrastination Monster got the better of me this week.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Not working today–or yesterday, or the day before, or until Tuesday. :)

      I already cleaned the house (on Wednesday) and I had been putting that off, so I guess that counts!

    5. on a train in some rain*

      I did the thing. A spontaneous last-minute road trip when I learned 12 hours prior that I had Friday off. Thanks for the validation. It does feel great.

      1. Folklorist*

        That. Is. Awesome! If I weren’t going away next week already, I would take your inspiration and do the same! ::Filing Away for Future Adventures::

    6. Accountant*

      Put in my billable time for the last week and a half. I was so behind. I hate billable hours. BUT I’M DONE NOW, BIATCHES!!!!

    8. Shark Lady*

      I closed the bank accounts that I no longer use and have been costing me service fees for months. I’ve been meaning to do it for ages!

    9. Rovannen*

      I took a personal day to clean my house….Feels Great! Hummingbirds are happy.

    10. Creag an Tuire*

      Ms. Tuire and I took the day off to go the kids’ preschool’s “Family Fun Event” — then we were able to drop them back off at daycare for the rest of the workday while we spring-cleaned the merciful hell out of everything. Feels noice.

    11. Christopher Tracy*

      I finally bought a new phone. I’d been clinging to my iPhone 4 for years, but that sucker was about to die on me, and I had to finally let it go. I miss my old phone already, though it is nice to have a bigger screen.

      1. Fish Microwaer*

        I finished an extremely boring online education module that had been half done for too long.

  3. Just Keep Swimming*

    There is a huge annual event in the city where I work. Last year my office had a booth there; I worked for comp time and got to enjoy the event too.

    This year I discovered the event has paid temporary positions to help run things behind the scenes. I’ve been job searching lately, specifically for positions where working similar events would be a factor. To get this temporary job would be great on my resume, plus it would put me in contact with the organization that runs this event and others, which may pay off at the very least with new networking opportunities.

    The problem is that my current work will have a booth at this event again. I’ll have to take two or three days off plus would not be able to help with the event for my office. I’d have to be up front about working for the event because it’s almost certain my coworkers will see me there. It’s not out of the ordinary for me to work events like these on the weekends outside of work, my coworkers all know this, but it would be the first time I work the same event where my current job is as opposed to working for them.

    I really want to do this temp job, I think the contacts and experience are definitely worth it, but I’m a little worried it might give a red flag that I’m job searching because I’ll be choosing other work over my current job. What do you think?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Sorry for double-post (below) was trying to reply to above and somehow started new thread.

      Sorry I don’t have any advice, but its an interesting situation. (I’ve done this twice this week now. Sorry!)

      One question: does/is Organization A (the one you work for) an obvious competitor to Organization B (the one you want to work booth at for weekend)? I could see where that would be a red flag then.

      On the other hand, if it’s well-known that you often work these type of events on weekends, that might be a point in your favor, but I agree it might be problematic if you’re not able to help your own company at least prepare their own booth. (Did you ever work your company’s booth at this event in the past?)

      1. Just Keep Swimming*

        Nope, Org A and Org B are not in competition with each other. They are not in the same industry, don’t share anything in common other than working in the same city. And I did work at my company’s booth at this event last year but they cut my shifts back to just one shift because they had so many volunteers, so I know they won’t be hurting for people to help.

        Thanks for the thoughts :)

    2. Cambridge Comma*

      Your office culture may vary, but to me the weird thing would be taking time off during an office event, and using holiday time to work elsewhere instead of contributing to the major event. It wouldn’t necessary say job searching, but it wouldn’t say anything positive. Could you find events in a different field to temp in, that won’t impact on your current job?

      1. Just Keep Swimming*

        I wouldn’t use any paid leave, I would take the time off without pay, since the event position is paid anyway. I can and have done work for other events but this being the biggest one in my city, connected to an organization that I’ve had my eye on, it feels like too big an opportunity to pass up.

        Also thinking more on it, I might be able to ask the event if I could have an hour or two off to do at least one shift at my office’s booth. Considering they cut me from three shifts to just one last year, my office never hurts for volunteers.

        Thanks for the thoughts :)

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think it’s a tight line to walk. What are the expectations from your current job about your availability to work this event? Is it a volunteer thing, or are they expecting you to work it because you’ve done so in the past?

      Since you already know who organizes the event, would it be possible to reach out to the coordinator for an informational interview, based on having attended the event as a booth-holder? If so, then your networking ability isn’t lost, and neither is your job-search-secrecy.

    4. fposte*

      With what you’ve described, it wouldn’t sound like a sign of job-hunting to me–you do this kind of stuff already, and this is the first year you’ve known of the opportunity at this event.

      But I think the place to be careful is the effect on your current job. If only a couple of people work at this event and it’s random or optional, you might be okay, but you really want to avoid looking like you’re bailing on a hard part of your “real” job to pick up extra bucks. Unless you’re leaving the job ASAP, leaving people in the lurch is going to have bad effects.

      1. NacSacJack*

        I agree. Don’t do it. If it was a volunteer position organizing it, I could see it and your workplace would probably love it “Hey look one of our employees helps organize it”, but if it’s a paid position I wouldn’t. It sounds like you’re competiting in the same industry as your employer. That’s not safe.

        1. Just Keep Swimming*

          I wasn’t going to tell my work that the position was paid. And my work and the organization are not in the same industries, to the point that I was surprised my work had a booth there at all. Do you think that changes things?

          1. Kay*

            As in you wouldn’t mention whether it was paid or not, or do you mean you would lie and say it was volunteer?

            1. Just Keep Swimming*

              I wouldn’t mention it; I certainly wouldn’t lie but I’d do my best to avoid the compensation behind the position.

              Honestly, I’d be interested in this temporary position even if it wasn’t paid. I’m interested in the experience and the contacts, not the pay.

          2. Dealtwiththis*

            I don’t see what the big deal is. We have a person on our staff that regularly takes vacation (several days at a time) to work a convention that comes to town once per year. She’s very vocal about why she takes this vacation and nobody bats an eye. It’s your time to do with what you want, whether you get paid or not. You can mention to your supervisor and colleagues that this is a cause you feel passionate about and want to help with. I really don’t think they will mind.

          3. Kittymommy*

            It just seems like it could get super awkward if you do it. While on the face I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong, I’d be afraid the impression is going to be bad to your current employer. In my head I’m thinking of the conversation afterwards with co-workers/boss ending with them asking if you wanted to work it so bad why didn’t you just work our table??

            1. Kittymommy*

              Let me also add that if the employer want there it’s not a problem, and if you are not given the opportunity to work the table it also gets easier, the problem, in my head at least, arises in that they are there and they want you there with them and you turn it down to take this opportunity.

            2. Just Keep Swimming*

              There is a big difference in working my office’s table for a couple hours and working for the event for days. Honestly, I wouldn’t want to work our one table for three days straight, it would get a little boring. But working for the overall event is a lot more interesting to me, something I have done at other events and really want to do here. Plus last year they cut back my volunteer shifts at our table from three to one because they had so many people volunteer, so my co-workers know I didn’t get to work as long as I liked where as this is guaranteed to last all three or four days.

              Thanks for your thoughts :)

    6. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think the key question is: Are you expected to work the event for your primary employer? If yes, then you can’t take that time off, regardless of the reason.

      If no – if there are lots of people who could staff the booth, so your specific presence wouldn’t be missed — then I think this is no big thing. Take the time, let your manager/colleagues know that you’ll be at the event in another capacity. Whether you get paid by the event is irrelevant to your employer, and not their business.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I would not do it. But I have an SOP of not taking PTO from one job to get paid to do another paid job. While the double dipping is nice for the wallet, it can not set well with some people— boss type people.
      While I believe that you believe no one will find out, my experience has been the opposite. People are supposedly no more than six degrees of relationship from each other. All it takes is one photograph or one person who loooves to talk.

      IF you can approach your current boss and ask for the time off and state the reason why, then my answer would be different. But it sounds like you cannot be straightforward like that.

      1. Ruffingit*

        Totally agree with NSNR! This is not going to sit right with your company. Don’t do it.

      2. Just Keep Swimming*

        I don’t plan to take paid leave; I would take is at unpaid, which I have done before for other weekend events. And I would be straight forward about what I’m doing because I know my co-workers would see me there. The only thing I would be hiding from my current job is the reason I want the temporary job: to add the event working experience to my resume and to network with the organization running the event. My boss and co-workers know that I work these kinds of events for fun on the weekends; this is just the first time that it would be the same event where my current job was also there.

        Thanks for your thoughts :)

  4. LeAnn*

    Almost 3 months ago I started a position as a Volunteer Coordinator for a small-ish non-profit (11 staff). The organization has a new ED (since Jan) and is at the beginning of a desperately needed revamp. Our Marketing Coordinator is going to be let go soon. For many reasons, they’ve decided to not replace him and I will be taking over most of his duties. One of the first things I will be doing is building a new website from scratch and working the org through a re-branding, plus handling social media, all of our IT stuff, etc. This is in addition to my current job duties.

    Do I ask for a raise at my 90-day review in a couple weeks?

    Some things that might make a difference:

    1) Our fiscal year is almost over, so we are in budget mode right now.

    2) The board is very likely about to approve a rather expensive software that I pushed for (it benefits the whole org, not just me) but we wouldn’t be getting it had I not pushed for it.

    3) I’m already paid under-market value. It’s hard to know what the market value is, but I had the same job title in the same town at a similarly sized non-profit and made $4 more per hour.

    4) I have the support from our ED in everything I’ve done so far and everything I want to do.

    Normally, I’d never even consider asking for a raise 90-days in, but everyone I talk to thinks I should. I can see their point…this is going to be a massive undertaking at the beginning. It’ll calm down some eventually, but re-branding and building a new site is going to be a lot of work and will either hurt what we’re trying to do or be really good for that. Should I wait until I successfully pull that off before I ask for a raise? Or do I wait for my 1-year mark? Or should I ask now/at my 90-day review?

    1. The Butcher of Luverne*

      Wow. That’s a complete realignment of duties and responsibilities. I should think you would want your position re-defined and re-calculated…

      1. BethRA*

        And that should happen now. Even if they envision this as a shorter-term change in your duties and expect to re-hire for the Marketing Coordinator down the road, the projects they’re asking you to take on are significant enough that it warrants a raise and change in title, at least while you’re doing this.

        Seriously, the projects you describe would have been a major undertaking for the Marketing Coordinator if that job still existed. IMO, to ask you to take this on without compensating you for it would be pretty shady.

        1. LeAnn*

          It probably doesn’t really change anything about what you said, but I do want to be clear that these projects are largely being pushed by me. My ED is on board, but I’ve been pushing for it since I started…I’m just finally going to be in a position to be able to do something. The current marketing coordinator is a large part of why we need these projects to begin with. So while yes, they’re asking me to do it, they probably wouldn’t be had I not been bringing it up for weeks or if they didn’t have confidence in my ability to handle it.

      2. LeAnn*

        That’s something I’m definitely going to bring up…was just waiting for it to be a little bit more official (right now it’s a “this is going to happen, I’m telling you so you’re prepared”). I have a good relationship with the ED, have known her for a couple years….our lack of solid marketing/branding/etc. has been a conversation we’ve had many times since I started because it’s making my job harder and because I have a marketing background. So while this becoming part of my job was totally expected, I’m definitely not going to be okay with my title still being Volunteer Coordinator when I spend as much, if not more, time on marketing. I’m just really uncertain if/how to bring up the money part.

    2. Ell*

      I… think you shouldn’t. Especially since you haven’t taken on those job duties yet. Maybe at 6 months once you’ve taken on the higher workload and had some success with it? Implementing a new system is a Big Deal but until you’ve demonstrated some accomplishments in doing it, I don’t think you’ll have much standing to ask for a raise. 3 months is just too early IMO regardless of the extra duties.

      1. Rat Racer*

        That’s what I came to say as well. Although I think that you can plant a seed now and say something like “after 6 months (or X # months) of taking on these additional duties, would you be willing to consider a reevaluation of my compensation – depending on my success in this new role?” Or something like that.

        1. LeAnn*

          I like this method. I couldn’t come up with wording that didn’t sound like ‘hey I’m going to be doing all this extra work so you should pay me more’…..this sounds much better.

      2. BRR*

        I’m behind this method. You have a much stronger case for a raise when you have accomplishments to support you.

    3. SophieChotek*

      While I’ve heard industry norms would almost never advocate to ask for a raise at 90 days, I agree–this is huge and I probably would consider asking for a raise or a re-evaluation of your job title/its scope and potential new pay.

    4. Cambridge Comma*

      1) Could you ask for the raise beginning in the next fiscal year? They are saving one post so there must be a little room.
      2) That shouldn’t matter. You pushed for it for business reasons, not to benefit yourself, I gues.
      3) That would have been something to negotiate when you were first hired, I think.
      4) Then perhaps you can find a way to float the idea that won’t have fall-out if the answer is no?
      Considering they are saving a salary because you can take on more duties, I would ask.

      1. LeAnn*

        1) Budget is being worked out now…my understanding is that the salary from the eliminated position is most likely going to fund the salary for a new position they’ve desperately been needing for a couple of years.

        2) True, but it’s going to save me a lot of time on my Volunteer Coordinator duties (will easily spend 50% less time on administrative stuff than what I do currently), which makes it a lot easier for me to take on extra work.

        3) No room for negotiation at that point. I have many reasons to believe what they’re paying me right now was the most they could offer me. Taking a job that was the right career move was more important than compensation, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to be paid what I’m worth….I just want to make sure I’m raising that question at the right time.

    5. Jadelyn*

      I’d frame it as a re-evaluation/re-framing of your position. “I started in X position expecting to do Y [potentially adding, “at my current pay rate”], but the addition of Z is changing that significantly, and I’d like to make sure we’re in agreement on where this is going. Is this position going to permanently change functional roles, and if so, how does that impact title/benchmarking/etc. going forward?”

      1. Jess*

        Yes to this! I wouldn’t necessarily ask for a “raise” but would ask, almost in an presumptive way, what compensation comes with the added responsibilities.

    6. fposte*

      I would definitely ask before it starts. The 90-day review might be a place to do it, but I’d actually prefer a separate meeting, because it’s very much its own subject. They’re asking you to add a whole nother job to the one you were hired for–which doesn’t make them evil, but it’s also not something you have to just accept without asking for relevant additional compensation, and I think that’s true whether you’ve been there 10 years or 10 days.

      Figure out the number you’d want and consider appropriate based on what you know about the tasks and the organization and ask for it; figure out how much it matters to you, too, and when you’d like to revisit the question if the answer is no.

      (It could help if you’re requesting a raise that would put you above the exempt threshold in December when otherwise you wouldn’t be–the OT on that kind of job combination would be pretty lethal.)

      1. LeAnn*

        I wish I was anywhere close to what the exempt threshold is, but I’m definitely not and we just flat out aren’t allowed overtime except for maybe rare instances (not something that has happened yet)….so that whole thing probably won’t affect me at all.

        Thanks for the advice though…I like the idea of bringing it up separately, maybe when this all becomes officially next week.

    7. Jack the Treacle Eater*

      Is 90 day review the end of your probationary period? Asking for an immediate raise then might be awkward, though it sounds deserving given the significant increase in duties and responsibilities and you can make a good case.

      I’d think it might be best left towards the end of the review discussion but brought up; depending on the discussion you might suggest a raise after X amount of time dependent on your performance in the enhanced role.

      You should be able to roughly benchmark your salary by looking at ads for similar roles; there are also career guidance websites that give an idea of the range for particular roles.

      You should be careful in your enthusiasm for the enhanced role not to be blind to the pitfalls of taking on a lot more work; do you genuinely have the time, will you be given support and resources, and so on. Look hard at the potential problems that might catch you out. You should be raising these – in a positive way – in review as well.

    8. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      My larger concern is everybody’s expectations here, before you get to compensation.

      There’s a lot of potential for failure here as what you’ve outlined is both a huge job for one person (before you get to it only being half of your job) + something that goes s-l-o-w-l-y. Everything in marketing takes so very much longer to launch than anyone expects, it truly does.

      Take how long you think this will take to accomplish, do 2X, and then figure you will be to the halfway point at the 2X time frame. Not kidding.

      So! Please make sure that you and all interested parties have a reasonable time frame/plan/launch dates. Make sure that you have vendors or partners who have agree to these dates and the deliverables. Deliver everything you personally can on time, but please build delays, and changes changes changes XYZ again, into the expectation of the people who will be evaluating your performance.

      As far as compensation, I’d try to get it now and not at 90 days. IDK how much you’ll be able to show at 90 days vs what people expect to see.

      1. AF*

        Yes – totally agree! Frame it as part of the larger conversation of how long you’ll be doing this. If there is no end in sight, and/or this is a permanent change in your job, do it now. Good luck!

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Launching a new website and an entire rebranding is when you double your marketing staff, not when you fire the one marketer and make marketing half of the volunteer coordinator’s job.

          LeAnn can do this but I’mma gonna worry about expectations because PTB is already employing magical staffing thinking.

      3. LeAnn*

        Oh yeah, definitely a concern but I feel pretty good about our expectations. I’m actually at the end of a major re-branding of a side project I run. It’s certainly not at the same level as what this will be, but I’ve been part of other similar organizations during similar projects, so between all that I’ve got a pretty solid grasp on expectations. We don’t have a current branding/marketing strategy, so that will largely be from scratch but thankfully we are an affiliate of a very large global nonprofit that has done a lot of research on that, so we have guides and resources from them. Our current website is just plain complicated and not at all functional, so it’s actually going to be easier to just start from scratch on that and I’ve built enough sites to know how long to expect that to take. I’ll be doing it myself because it doesn’t make sense to hire a 3rd party to do it, but I’ve got another staff member and interns to help out along the way.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Okay so you’re doing the website actually yourself also. This is yet another job. That’s not marketing, that’s another job, so that’s three jobs. Unless you are planning on also doing art and design and then that four jobs.

          It’s terrific that you have this experience already that allows you to be confident in your planning.

          Lookit, I rarely say this but I think you should go for the money now. Marketing people will understand the difficulty level of your dive here but my experience with non marketing people is that if you do all of those different jobs + deliver + deliver good product (while doing your job also), they aren’t going to grasp what you just pulled off.

          I think you should be asking for market rate for a non-profit marketer in your region.

    9. Artemesia*

      It isn’t a ‘raise 90 days in’ it is moving into a different more demanding job which calls for reevaluating the role — you are essentially being promoted into a more important job and your salary should be adjusted to reflect this. I would frame it this way. If they expect you to work for long as the marketing director on volunteer coordinator pay I would be looking at this as a training experience and be scanning for marketing positions with other non-profits as soon as you feel up to speed.

  5. Not Karen*

    I was going to present my case for a raise at my 1-year evaluation. Then my manager had her baby unexpectedly early and went out on maternity leave just before my evaluation was due. Now I have to have the salary review discussion with HR instead. Any advice?

    1. Journal Entries*

      Bring in a copy of your official job description, then show how you’ve gone above and beyond.

    2. T3k*

      If you have emails from your manager praising your work, stats showing how effective you’ve been, etc. bring those as well.

    3. LUCYVP*

      I would be upfront with HR and ask how they want to handle this discussion.

      They clearly are not in the same position to evaluate you as your manager would be, but that should be obvious to everyone involved. Asking them in advance what types of materials or evidence they would like to see makes it clear that you are taking this seriously.

    4. Liana*

      I’m with T3K – if you have any emails from your manager praising your work or otherwise making you look especially good, definitely bring those in, as well as evidence of anything else you’d normally bring to your evaluation (initiatives started, performance metrics, etc). It’s also a possibility that your manager gave HR some material so they’d have a jumping off point for your review – even just an email saying “I’d like to give Not Karen an X% raise”. Other than that, see how HR would like to handle it. Good luck!

  6. ThatGirl*

    We all got called into a sudden, mandatory meeting yesterday, and its purpose was only to announce to the group, all at once, that one of my fellow editors had been abruptly fired on Wednesday afternoon for “violating company policy.” Leaving me extremely curious what happened – while I had a few minor issues with the guy, he never seemed unprofessional or in danger of being suddenly fired. Around here you have to do something pretty egregious for that to happen. And now I’m down a team member. Ah, well, we’ll see what happens.

    1. Amber T*

      Ooh this is one of those situations where I’d super curious and want to find out why, though I’d know it’s technically none of my business. I was going to say it’s odd they called a meeting for that, but I guess announcing it to everyone at the same time in person somewhat controls the fire – everyone found out at the same time, I’m assuming people got to ask questions (though maybe not get them answered). Diminishes the gossip a little bit.

      1. ThatGirl*

        It may come out eventually, but yeah, I assume they wanted everyone to know all at once to control the rumor mill, although an e-mail seems like it might have been just as effective?

        1. Bea W*

          An abrupt announcement like that without any details probably just got the rumour mill chugging along earlier. Now everyone will be speculating on what he may have done.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Possible, but … we work in cubicle farms and he had 7 other people around him, it would be hard to do that and not get caught. If he was using his work laptop for it at home, well, that’s just stupid.

        1. RVA Cat*

          Yes, but IT people find this stuff all the time – esp. when they have to deal with the ensuring viruses.

      2. Lily in NYC*

        It could be anything and it’s really impossible to guess. We just fired someone for running an online sneaker business out of his cubicle (using company resources). Never would have guessed that as a reason.

          1. Lily in NYC*

            He was so dumb (well, he is super smart but handled this like a dummy) – he didn’t get fired when he first got caught – he was given a warning. But he didn’t stop what he was doing and ended up getting escorted out of the building. And he ruined it for the rest of us – because of him we are no longer allowed to drop off stamped mail to be sent out from our mailroom (many of us in NYC don’t have an outgoing mail slot in our apartment buildings so we bring it to work).

        2. Pennalynn Lott*

          I once had a co-worker get fired for day-trading using company computers (and company time).

          And another co-worker who got fired for looking at porn sites. . . during business hours. . . in his cubicle. . . which was set up so that his computer screen faced the hallway behind him. . . which was a major pass-through to the kitchen. I saw him on the local news a few weeks later, being interviewed as an older employee who had been [unfairly] let go as part of the 2008 recession. Um, no. He was fired for being unbelievably stupid.

          1. The Rat-Catcher*

            +100 because I love your name!!! It took me a minute to remember why it sounded familiar!

          2. RVA Cat*

            Note that doing this where it could be viewed by others could also make it sexual harrassment. Reminds of a story from several years ago of someone who should have known better doing this – after hours, but he *printed stuff out* and left it on the printer, where a female co-worker found it the next morning.

          3. Lily in NYC*

            Gross! But he sure had chutzpah to go on the news. I would move to Siberia if I got fired for something like that.

      3. NN*

        The vice chancellor of the university where I work does a yearly presentation to staff and every year, he reminds everyone not to watch porn on the work computers. This year he also noted that watching porn on your own device using the university wifi network also breached the rules and that they could track this. Sadly, I saw a few people go pale when he said this.

    3. Ama*

      Is it possible he ran afoul of a PTO or financial reimbursement policy? I’ve seen a few abrupt firings for people who seemed like exemplary employees and it was often because they violated a policy that HR had a no-tolerance rule for, usually involving financial reimbursement or benefits.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Possible, although there’s not much we do in our daily work that we’d need to buy and get reimbursed for. And our manager keeps fairly tight track of our PTO. That said, any number of things is certainly possible, and it’s also possible he had been on some sort of PIP nobody knew about?! He wasn’t “exemplary” to me but fairly average. But to me, the abrupt nature of it makes me think “some really big f-up was discovered”.

    4. NacSacJack*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. He’s gone. Adapt. They did the same with one of my co-workers and they called the group meeting to avoid any physical or emotional confrontations as well as to not embarrass the co-worker. I only knew why because the employee talked to me about the situation he was in. One manager called him away from his desk and another manager grabbed everyone on the floor and walked them to a conference room and told them then. I was on the phone when it happened and I tried to tell the second manager I’m busy, then stopped mid-sentence, turned to my phone conference and said, “I’m sorry, I’ve got to go right now.” and left my desk. I suddenly realized he was trying to protect us or not embarrass a long-time employee.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I’m not worried about it, I’m curious. Don’t worry, we’ve already adapted just fine.

      2. ScarletInTheLibrary*

        I would think employees would like to know what company policy this guy was breaking if only to avoid breaking the same policy. Many moons ago, a former coworker was fired for abusing a grossly vague Internet policy that had been omitted from the more recent employee manuals. This policy did not involve stock tracking or running a business using company resources. We are talking checking personal email and Facebook during lull times. Tasks did not fall through the cracks with coworker and said coworker was honored as an employee of the month not long before the firing. Some coworkers went on probation and others were told not to worry about watching cat videos. Sadly I (and almost anyone who was at this work at the time) think this was a case where the policy was vague so it could be unevenly enforced. Our crazy manager (as well as the coworker’s supervisor) had it out for certain people, who generally were those that gave crazy manager push back (instead of sighing and rolling their eyes). After the dust settled, several of us got together as a group to get the policy clarified.

    5. Liana*

      Oooh I would be SO curious. At my last job, my manager, who I worked with for a year, was suddenly fired with zero warning. We received an email from the department’s medical director (it was at a hospital) saying “Jane Featherbottom is no longer working with our department. We wish her the best of luck in future endeavors”, and THAT’S IT. I still don’t know why she was fired, two years later. Drives me crazy.

    6. ginger ale for all*

      I have had several supervisors escorted off the premises by the police at my part time job. I know why one was investigated and I wish I had never found out. Just wish them well and don’t listen to the gossip. You can’t make yourself forget certain things.

  7. TGIF*

    I want to majorly redo my resume. One of the tips I see is that the info for each former job should be what you succeeded in doing in that position, rather than just a regular job description. However I only have one real full-time job under my belt, with college jobs to back it up. Especially with the college jobs, I don’t have much I succeeded at the sides getting the job done. How should I go about doing this when I mainly just did my job to the best of my abilities, not going above and beyond in any spectacular way?

    1. Ell*

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/03/how-do-i-write-a-compelling-cover-letter-when-i-dont-have-much-work-experience.html

      This is about cover letters, not resumes but I still think it’s useful to think about for framing your work. Did your supervisor in the college jobs give you good feedback when you got the job done? Did you get it done quicker than expected? Were you asked to take on additional duties on occasion because they trusted you? Getting the job done well IS an accomplishment, you just need to frame it in a way that is more specific. Just because you didn’t create a new system or become employee of the month doesn’t mean you didn’t have accomplishments.

    2. ZSD*

      Quantify whatever you can. “Counseled 400+ clients on best approaches to…” “Increased success rate of grant proposals from 23% to 38%”
      Also, even if you didn’t go above and beyond, did you become known in the office for being good at something in particular? What did your boss tend to compliment you on? Thinking about that could help you figure out what to highlight on your resume.

    3. Terra*

      Sometimes just doing the job is an accomplishment, especially at jobs that have a fairly low work standard/high turnover such as retail that tends to hire mostly high school/college students. With jobs like that I’d usually think back on your most “eh” coworkers. The ones you didn’t like working with who never quite got fired but you kind of wished they had because they never seemed to be able to keep it together, most places had at least one in my experience. Then compare yourself to that person. How were you better than they were? Those are the accomplishments you write down. Never missing a shift, always being nice about coming in if there was an emergency, never being late, your drawer always counted out correctly, etc.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq*

        I agree with the advice here, though not the sentiment; there’s always ways to accomplish stuff in every job! I worked fast food for two years after college and I was everyone’s favorite coworker for many reasons. But the advice is the same: what made you someone that people wanted to work with? What made your boss want to give you more hours?

        I think comparing yourself to the co-workers you didn’t like working with is also solid because it reframes how you think about accomplishments, but I just had to butt in and defend the idea that even jobs that *seem* like they have low work standards still have a wide variance in performance, and you’re trying to capture why you were a top performer.

  8. Kristine*

    Any teachers here? I am looking to switch from marketing project management into teaching (preferably high school English) and would love any advice from teachers out there. What’s life like for a first year teacher? Anything to expect that they don’t tell you about? What are the best and worst parts of the job? What are the job interviews like for teachers and how do you prepare for them? What should I be looking for in a school?

    FYIW, I have a BA in Psychology and specialized in child psychology in college (graduated in 2011).

    1. No name for now*

      I just got my MA in Teaching and my first teaching job! I can’t speak to the first year yet, since I don’t start until August, but as far as the interview process, I found a list of 50 interview questions for teachers on Google and used that as my prep guide. Right now, schools are big on student centered teaching, so it was important to think about using data to drive decisions and how every decision you make benefits the students.

      I have also read a lot of “first year teacher” blogs and articles. Truthfully, they kind of freaked me out because they kind of focus on the negatives, but it has helped me prepare for what will most likely be a very difficult and stressful first year. The first year is always the hardest.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Any teachers here?

      Former high school English teacher here (both public and private) in the U.S.

      I am looking to switch from marketing project management into teaching (preferably high school English) and would love any advice from teachers out there.

      That’s going to be tough without grad school or some kind of teaching internship program, and many teaching internships are looking for people recently out of college. Since you graduated in 2011, you may qualify. Definitely looking into some private school internships (a bit late to apply for this year, but maybe next year), since that’s cheaper than grad school.

      What’s life like for a first year teacher?

      Tough. Stressful. Not the least bit glamorous. Rewarding at times. But very very tough. You’ll have working against you the following:
      * You’ve never taught before.
      * You (right now) don’t have any official training in teaching.
      * The kids (and parents) know you’re new and will push your boundaries.
      * If you graduated in 2011, you’re likely young, and I’ve seen very few young teachers be able to be authoritative in the classroom in their first year.

      Anything to expect that they don’t tell you about?

      If you teach in a (not rich) public school, be prepared for 70-90% of your job being police officer / test prepper and only about 10-30% of your job being actual teaching / facilitating learning.

      What are the best and worst parts of the job?

      The best parts were seeing kids actually understand stuff—good when it came from your explanations and best when they got to understanding on their own through discussions you’ve facilitated. Also, even though I hate it when people say teachers “get” summers off, you actually need the summers off, and they’re a relief!

      The worst parts were not being backed up by my department head (in one school) for standing against grade inflation for students who didn’t do work for the grades they ended up getting, or having a parent (in another school) tell me she didn’t agree with the grade I gave her kid, because she was an English major in college and she (in her obviously unbiased opinion) thought her kid’s paper deserved an A. Oh, also the one teaching assignment I had with zero prep periods, and five classes meeting every day at the exact same times every day.

      There were other bests and worsts, but those are the ones that are off the top of my head.

      What are the job interviews like for teachers and how do you prepare for them?

      They’re a lot like job interviews for other types of positions. You meet people (department head, head of school, future co-workers, current students), and they ask you questions. You also very likely will have to teach a sample lesson. That can be awkward, but they know it’s awkward, and it’s equally awkward for any other candidates, too.

      What should I be looking for in a school?

      Honestly, every school I’ve worked in has been dysfunctional in some ways, so I think you just have to figure out what kind of dysfunction works for you. I will say that one of the best things you can have is an administration and department head that have your back. In other words, if you discipline a kid or give a kid a bad grade (with good reason, of course), you want a department head who won’t tell you to change your decision just because a parent complained. Same with your head of school or principal.

      1. Kristine*

        Thank you so much for this, I really appreciate it. My biggest fear going into this is my lack of teaching experience and training. Right now I am taking classes (unaffiliated with any degree program) that are meant to prepare first time teachers, but I know that’s not the same as having in-classroom experience. I’m going to look into possible student teaching jobs/internships as well as substitute teaching to help get me some experience in a classroom before I apply for a full time position. But it seems like teaching is a job that will get easier with time and eventually I will have to jump in, even if I’m swimming against the current for awhile.

        1. Ama*

          Depending on where you live there may be some kind of a program designed to help people from other careers transition into teaching (it’s usually a way to try to recruit more teachers into the public school system). I know several big cities in the U.S. have them.

          1. Turanga Leela*

            Yes—Kristine, look for “teaching fellows” programs in your area, and there’s always Teach For America (you don’t have to be just out of college to do it). Substitute teaching is a good idea but stressful; you will learn classroom management skills FAST.

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, it sounds as if you’re doing what you should be doing. You did mention your bachelor’s was in psychology, but you want to teach English. How much English coursework did you do? Typically, schools looking to hire English teachers are looking for people who either majored in English undergrad or have a master’s degree in English. Though, if you have significant history coursework and maybe some classics, you might be able to get away with a more humanities (English-history combined) curriculum.

          1. Kristine*

            I did not do any specific Engligh coursework in college, but I was a history minor in a program that was very literature-focused. I will have to see what my state requires for their English teachers.

            1. blackcat*

              Based on your background, it may be easier to enter in as a “social studies” teacher.

              Generally, states require a certain number of credit hours in the field you’ll be teaching in, even for unlicensed teachers in charter schools. You can google “Highly Qualified” +teacher +your state to figure out what the standards are.

              Depending on where you are, you may find that it’s nearly impossible to get an english teaching job without an MA. Even states that have a shortage of teachers overall may still have a glut of english teachers–it’s the hardest field to enter into.

            2. sam*

              depending on the school you are in a lot of teaching English might wind up being teaching kids how to read.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Oh, one more thing—teaching assignments can vary greatly depending on the school. Some schools (mainly private, but also some rich public) will give you four classes to teach with only 14-18 students per class. Other schools (many public and parochial) will give you five classes to teach with 24-30 students per class. Some charter schools will even have you teach Saturdays as well.

        I’m one of those teachers who actually liked having more preps, but in your first year of teaching, the fewer preps, the better. In other words, you may have 5 classes to teach, but all 5 are sophomore English. Or, you may have 4 classes to teach, with 1 being freshman English, 2 being sophomore English, and 1 being senior English. In the latter case, you have three separate preps. That’s a lot of lesson planning!

        A few other things…

        Every school has its own culture and cultural norms. You won’t know these norms until you work at the school. You won’t know what’s acceptable or not acceptable in a school until you work there at least a year—and that goes for student language and dress, work being on time or not, quality of work, respect students who or not, etc.

        No matter how “good” a lesson plan you plan, many of your lesson plans will not go the way you thought they would. That’s okay, though. Stay flexible. And also keep in mind that a lesson that works really well for one class may totally bomb for another class.

        Time of day matters. Unfortunately, some schools will schedule the same classes to meet the same time of day every day. That means if you have section B of your English seniors last period on Monday and have them last period of Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday… they will always be in last-period mode, and that sucks.

        1. Kristine*

          This is all great info to have and think about. Thank you for sharing! I know that there will be some culture shock going from the private corporate world to the (probably public) school world but it’s good to prepare myself for some of the specific differences. I hadn’t even thought about number of preps or time of day yet.

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          That should be respect students give or not, etc.

          One other thing is that some schools will track English classes and others won’t. Tracking has its pros and cons, but I think generally I’m against tracking and would prefer an integrated English class over remedial/regular/honors or on-level/honors/advanced.

          And, at many schools, tracking is determined not really by ability or aptitude but by behavior. In other words, the kids in the on-level or remedial classes aren’t “dumb” but they are generally misbehaving or don’t actually do work. Likewise, the kids in the honors classes aren’t necessarily “smart,” but they are generally hardworking or better behaved.

        3. The Rat-Catcher*

          “Time of day matters. Unfortunately, some schools will schedule the same classes to meet the same time of day every day. That means if you have section B of your English seniors last period on Monday and have them last period of Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday… they will always be in last-period mode, and that sucks.”

          This comment is fascinating to me…I don’t know if it’s a regional difference or what, but around here, having classes the same time every day is so very much the norm (in public, private, parochial, whatever) that any other type of set-up would get serious side-eye. Block schedules are not unheard of, but even then, they are always at the same time, just not every day.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Well, I’ve worked in both kinds of schools, and I assure you a rotating schedule is not deserving of any kind of side-eye. It’s definitely better to mix it up and have your class sometimes meet first period, sometimes meet before lunch, sometimes meet after lunch, and sometimes meet at the end of the day.

            Also, just strictly from a logistics perspective, classes that always meet at the end of the day get disproportionately hit with early dismissals for sports games, so that’s a lot of class time missed for one particular class for students.

            1. The Rat-Catcher*

              Oh, I think it’s a great idea! It just wasn’t something that ever even occurred to me because it’s so far out of the norm here.

              And yes, I remember always falling asleep in the after-lunch class, our first class always losing time because of housekeeping issues, and missing a lot of last hour for sports dismissals as you said (especially bad that year I had last-hour calculus!)

            2. Tris Prior*

              Huh. I would’ve really liked a setup like this in high school. I somehow always got stuck with PE early in the morning (thus destroying my 80s big hair pretty much first thing) and the tough classes like calculus last period when I had no brain left. I have never heard of classes rotating times!

          2. Turanga Leela*

            I taught in a school where every class was at the same time every day. My first period was always low-energy; I tried everything with them and got almost no participation. It was like pulling teeth. I had a ton of failing grades in that class and felt awful about it. Once, late in the year, I got to see that class after lunch, and I barely recognized the students—they had so much energy!

            When I was in high school, we had a five-day rotating schedule, and it really helped avoid that problem. Instead of calling the classes “first period,” “second period,” and “third period,” you call them “A block,” “B block,” and “C block,” and then you shuffle them into different orders on different days. It’s just as easy to schedule, and it’s confusing for the first week but fine after that.

            1. blackcat*

              I once taught a 90 minute block period of teenagers that started at 7:25am. It was awful. They were a really lovely bunch of kids (well mannered, eager to learn) but I seriously had to have at least 2 jumping jack breaks in the class to keep them awake.

              I later taught in a rotating block school, with no class starting before 8:15am. It was glorious.

    3. Knapplepi*

      You will want to check the regulations for the teaching profession in the states where you hope to work! In the state where I am employed, uncertified teachers cannot obtain employment in a public school unless there are no certified applicants. You should expect a huge learning curve if you get the opportunity to teach. I thought I was a pretty good teacher for my first two years. In my third year, I realized how much I had to learn! Twenty five years later, I am still evaluating my performance and trying to improve! I entered the profession after I obtained a BS in math and physics. All of my teacher prep work was done during my master’s program. The most valuable part was working with experienced, certified teachers in classroom settings. I learned so much from other teachers and they gave me valuable insight into my strengths and weaknesses!

      1. Kristine*

        I will definitely have to check that. Thanks for the heads up! I am actually in the process of getting my teaching certificates, I just don’t have an MA. In my state you can teach for up to 5 years without an MA so it’s my plan to get the MA in my first 5 years of teaching.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Something to consider if you do go into / stay in teaching: look into Breadloaf. It’s a summer-only English master’s program, and many of its students are English teachers. It’s a good way to earn your master’s (and get a higher salary, too) without having to take time off from your job.

          Oh, and speaking of going into / staying in teaching: when I first got to grad school for teaching, they told us some large percentage (I forget the exact number) of teachers quit within the first five years of teaching. I arrogantly thought “Not me!” and that I was somehow better or more dedicated than other new teachers. Nope. I quit after five years. It’s tough. And I know some people who quit right after getting the M.Ed. or quit within the first two years.

          1. Kristine*

            Yeah, I know there are high percentage of teachers who quit, and I can understand why. I (probably arrogantly as well) think I’m up to the challenge, but I might be kidding myself. I think I could thrive in the right circumstances and am looking into schools outside the public school system (like Montessori) and inside to see what my options look like. But my stepfather has been a teacher for 30 years, my SIL for almost 4, and my MIL is a retired teacher so I have a pretty solid teacher support system to help me along the way.

          2. academic*

            I taught teachers in an M.Ed. program for 15 years. I remember a failing grad student who just couldn’t get it together to hand in assignments. I met with Dean to try to help this student. (who by the way displayed huge resentment towards my “unrealistic expectations”) The Dean said, Betsy is in her first year of teaching and just realized this is her life and hates it. Some students are just begging us to tell them they shouldn’t be teachers.

        2. Ama*

          That’s a good plan. In my home state, MAs are not required to teach, but once you earn your MA you get paid at a higher rate. I’ve known a few people who have earned their MAs in their first teaching position, quit for a few years to have kids and then had difficulty getting rehired because the schools don’t want to hire teachers at the MA rate when there are plenty of non-MA candidates.

    4. MoinMoin*

      Not a teacher, but my SIL is finishing up her second year teaching High School STEM and from talking to her, parents and administration that don’t look out for the teachers seem like the biggest stressors by far.

    5. Turanga Leela*

      Former teacher here. The first year of teaching is relentless. It seems like there’s an endless amount of work. A few (long) pieces of advice:
      1) Make friends with experienced teachers. Learn from them how the school works, what the unwritten rules are, etc. They may also have materials that you can use.
      2) Look for resources that already exist: ideas for unit plans, texts for teaching particular ideas, processes for analyzing text… You will wind up writing a ton of your own material, and it’s fine to borrow and adapt other teachers’ stuff.
      3) Routines. Early on, think about what routines you want to have in your classroom, both for yourself and your students. Maybe when the students come in, there’s a “do now” assignment on the board. Maybe they keep English journals in your classroom, and they’re expected to structure journal entries in a particular way. Maybe every Friday is a spelling quiz. Teach the routines early so that your students know them. They will make your life easier.
      4) Come up with emergency lesson plans and time-filling activities in case you need them. You need a few things that will eat up 10 minutes if you get done with your lesson plan early or a fire drill takes up almost all of class. (Some teachers use worksheets or word games for this.) You also need full-period activities that you can use if almost the whole class is absent, or you have laryngitis, or you have to have a substitute. Until you know the substitute teaching staff, do not assume that they will be able to teach a regular lesson; pick an activity that your students can do with minimal assistance.
      5) Get involved in one student club or other activity. Seeing students outside your classroom can make a world of difference; some of my best memories of teaching are from field trips and our annual Math Night. You don’t want to overschedule yourself, but this is worth doing.

      Good luck in teaching! It is the most important job in society. I’m so excited for you and your future students.

      1. Kristine*

        Thank you for this amazing advice. I’m taking notes on all of this to keep on hand. I’m glad you brought up #5 especially– all of the teachers I remember fondly are the ones who participated in activities outside the classroom.

        And thank you! I’m also very excited and hope I can do right by my future students and be a great resource and mentor for them.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Oh, your #3 and #4 just reminded me of something, which is to have something for kids to do if they arrive early. If your class started at 11:25, some of your kids will arrive at 11:20 and others will trickle in at 11:24 or even 11:25 on the dot (yes, others too will be late, but class will be well on its way by then. When I first started teaching, I would just chat with the early kids, but I found it far more effective to have something for them to focus on, even if it wasn’t directly related to the curriculum (for example, a “quote of the day” on the board). Then, with all the kids focused, it was far easier to transition that focused energy into actual class discussion.

        Also, it took me a while to realize I was a far more effective teacher when I wasn’t 100% earnest. I don’t think it’s good to be sarcastic (except with certain students who really like that), but I also think you aren’t 100% you when you teach—you’re a version of you, and you need to play that role a bit. I had a mentor teacher who told me “Don’t smile until Christmas!” which I couldn’t do, but I do believe the idea behind it, which is you aren’t there to be friends with the kids; you’re there to teach them.

        And, along those lines, it’s always better, especially if you’re a new teacher, to say “No,” and then eventually move that to a “Yes” than to say “Yes” and then try to switch it to a “No.”

        1. Turanga Leela*

          Yes to all of this, especially being a version of you! And it’s a version of YOU, not somebody else. A lot of new teachers try to emulate other teachers they know, but people have different styles, and what works for one teacher doesn’t always work for another. It takes work, but you have to find your own groove.

        2. Lily Evans*

          I never actually became a teacher, but one of my Education professors in college really emphasized that you should try to get your students to respect you first, then get them to like you. If you try too hard to get them to like you in the beginning, it would be hard to get their respect later.

      3. phedre*

        #4 is such great advice! I was never a teacher, but I did TA a couple of classes in grad school and ran my own discussion sessions for the classes. If I had a lesson plan or discussion questions that I thought would take an hour, invariably they’d take 20 minutes and I’d be left scrambling for 30 min. On the flip side, sometimes things that I thought would take 15 minutes took the entire hour. I wish someone had warned me to be more prepared for all eventualities!

    6. Artemesia*

      I taught HS for a few years and the first two years I worked every evening and every weekend either grading 160 essays or preparing material for classes. I was teaching before there was prescribed lesson plans and curriculum so I invented everything I did in the classroom. It was the hardest work I ever did — I worked every day all school year, collapsed with some respiratory stuff that I had worked through whenever vacation days occurred and then worked on my masters degree in the summers. And for really low pay. I think pay is a bit better now as are benefits. (I never for example had dental insurance)

    7. Mando Diao*

      Keep in mind that high school English is one of the most competitive teaching positions, if not THE most competitive. You’ll be going up against people with both BAs and MAs in English Education (or MATs, or whatever variant applies), and lots of them can’t even find teaching jobs.

      This isn’t meant to rain on your parade. Just be aware that it’s not an easy job to get, and you have none of the relevant credentials. You will need to get a teaching certification (and ideally a master’s degree in education too), and you will most likely have to backtrack on your undergrad education because you didn’t major in English.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Oh, yes, I forgot about that, too. If you want to get a job more easily, be a math or science teacher! English, history, and elementary are very competitive.

        1. Kristine*

          Yeah, my state specifically says it’s looking for math and science teachers right now. My problem with teaching those subjects is that they don’t come naturally do me and I wouldn’t feel 100% confident teaching them. I’m willing to put in the work and time for extra certifications and degrees in order to teach the subject I’m passionate about.

          1. Turanga Leela*

            If you’re willing to teach middle school and/or teach in a high-poverty school, getting a job will be easier. The job itself might be harder, but there will be more openings.

          2. Science Teacher*

            Middle school & high school science teacher here– I would only recommend you get into teaching science if you have a strong background in science. Even though there is a huge need for it, unless you have strong classroom management and support from admin and a science team, I would not recommend you jump into it. Preparing and running science labs easily takes up 90% of the prep time I have and can be extremely stressful.

            Another thing- try volunteering in a school in an area you want to teach.

          3. Rob Lowe can't read*

            Depending on your state/district, ESL might be a good route to go if you want to teach language arts (though obviously teaching ELLs is a very different ball game than teaching gen ed and is not right for everyone!). My area cannot produce ESL teachers fast enough to meet the need (or, in my district’s case, the federal requirements). I’m an elementary ESL teacher and I teach two sections of ELA/ESL (reading, writing, and language development). I graduated with an M.Ed in elementary education, got ESL certified on the job, and will be returning to school part time in the fall to do some additional coursework in ESL.

      2. blackcat*

        Yep. I taught at a prep school where all english teachers hired in the previous 10 years had PhDs in English. 1 had a PhD in English AND an MFA in creative writing.

        English teachers who had been there longer had MAs in English or MFAs, often paired with an MAT or MEd.

        Me? I was a 22 year old with a STEM bachelors degree and a teaching certification (no masters). I went to a super elite college, which helped. The only faculty on staff without a masters degree in their field or an MAT/MEd were us STEM faculty. I was one of only 5 such people out of a total faculty of about 45.

        Standards are wildly different depending on the type of school, but you need a LOT of credentials to get a high school english job at a good school.

    8. Aardvark*

      (Former teacher here–I taught for two years and have been in education-adjacent fields for another 8-10)

      I’d really ask yourself why you want to be a teacher first, and I would make sure you’re asking that question on a deep level. And if there is a hint of a “save the children” or a “teaching will make me a better person” mentality, or if you’re looking for a change and cannot clearly articulate why you are choosing teaching as an endpoint for that change, I would absolutely think twice about this career switch.

      Teaching is a skilled profession–I think a lot of people ignore that when they switch positions. In the vast majority of cases, walking into a room and delivering a compelling lecture will not be effective–you’ll also need to learn classroom management, assessment and pedagogical skills. Your background in psychology should be helpful, but expect to spend a long time mastering how to hook kids into the lesson, how to make sure your lessons teach what you’re intending at a deep level, how to support learners at multiple levels, and how to monitor and adjust these lessons on the fly. It takes a lot of time (more than 2 years! I was not a great teacher when I left by any measure) to become good at it.

      It can be really rewarding–especially those “aha!” moments when a kid really gets it, or when a complicated lesson goes off without a hitch, or when you wake up at 3 AM with a great lesson idea that actually works out, or when a student who never does their homework gets really engaged in an activity, or when you get to tell a parent their student has really turned around, or when someone who you reassured when they had a rough day says thanks the next day.

      This comes at a cost–you will probably spend at least one weekend day working, more than 8 hours onsite every workday, and a few more hours most nights prepping lessons, grading, calling parents, and dealing with paperwork. You may have to shoulder some of the cost of fingerprinting and background checks before you are hired as well as any preliminary subject area tests. You will almost certainly end up spending your own money on classroom supplies too–we had only a few thousand dollars to fund materials for an entire department, and the reimbursement process was byzantine to say the least.

      As for interviews–for public schools, expect government-style interviews where there is a panel and set questions. Panels will often contain senior teachers, department heads, and school or district administrators. You may not be interviewing for a specific position, but instead a specific type of position within a district (they may pull together a panel for all 9th grade English teachers within the district and interview a bunch of candidates for all those positions on a specific day.) This may be different if they’re hiring an emergency replacement–that may be more like a regular interview.

      1. Sami*

        Excellent points, Aardvark.
        May I ask what you’re doing now? I’m looking to do something education-related, I’m ready to leave the classroom.

    9. New Bee*

      I’m a former teacher–currently an instructional coach and most of the teachers I work with are in their first and second year. From a coaching perspective, I generally work with my teachers on being just as invested in the “how” as they are in the “what”. There’s no magic curriculum, or management trick, or school placement that will solve the challenges you’ll face in the first year (realistically, in the first 3 years). My most successful teachers try something, reflect on how it worked, and then adjust and try again, whereas my weakest teachers look for someone/something to blame and put their eggs in the “if my kids/admin/students’ families/district would do X, I’d be a better teacher” basket. Growth mindset is big in education right now, and I’d posit it’s just as important for teachers.

      I can also offer insight if you are considering entering a certification program: I did one (of several options in my city), and I have insight into a few other based on the experiences of relatives and close friends.

    10. Becca*

      I’m sitting next to my husband, who is a high school math teacher. Things to consider:

      – The workload for teaching English is going to be heavier than for a lot of other subjects. The constant essays being written in and for English classes all need to be read. Even if you’re a fast reader, that’s still a lot of pages.
      – Call homes early and often to be on the same page as the parents and to know who will back you up and who won’t. This is VERY helpful for both being evaluated and for keeping a track record of students who aren’t performing well, so that you have some protection if admin gives you grief about their grade.
      – It’s very hard to find out ahead of time, but the best environment for teaching is one where administration backs up the teachers. (You can’t really gauge this from the outside, since individuals often have different opinions compared with the truth.)
      – It’s great if you can get some lesson plans from coworkers in your first year who are teaching the same classes as you. Coordinate with them!!! They can help you a huge amount, and prevent you from haring off in the wrong direction.
      – Style-wise, what works for one teacher won’t necessarily work for others. My husband’s style is goofy, and he treats his students like human being. One of his coworkers is fairly terrifying, and that works great for him. Wouldn’t work so great for my husband…
      – Set boundaries. Set them early, make them solid. And make sure that you can actually enforce those boundaries.
      – Incentive structure: Make sure things consistently get worse for people who don’t do what they’re supposed to, and better for those that do, so students are constantly incentivized to do what they need to.

      Good luck!

  9. ThursdaysGeek*

    This is related to the discussion on question 1 on Monday, about the co-worker who was tracking the time of another co-worker who was taking a lot of time off.

    If you have a co-worker who is taking a lot of time off, wasting time at work, or doing lousy work, but their lack of work doesn’t affect you directly, how do you tell the difference between a manager who is dealing appropriately with that co-worker and a bad manager?

    My contention is that even if the co-worker’s apparent slacking does not affect you, whether you have a good or a bad manager certainly does.

    People keep saying that the co-worker’s work is not your business. I agree. But I do need to know if I have a good manager who is dealing with issues appropriately and a bad manager who would rather just let issues slide.

    It seems that managers who keep everyone in the dark about what is going on, perhaps even appearing as if they don’t even see that anything is going on, is a manager that is going to lose good people. And how is that being a good manager?

    I’d be interested in hearing how a manager should communicate to the team when there is potentially an issue with a person on a team.

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I think you will know if you have a good manager, regardless of whether or not you know if they’re addressing issues with a specific team member. Good communication, clear goals and expectations, feedback in the moment, even-keeled, open to different ideas, not micromanaging, etc.

    2. Sadsack*

      I think the only basis you have for knowing is how your manager treats you and handles issues that you are involved in. That’s it.

    3. Ashley (in PA)*

      I really don’t understand this thinking. Obviously, if its egregious enough, the person should be put on a PIP and show improvement or get canned eventually – that would be how you know something is being done. If there’s no improvement at any time, and they continue their job, that’s how you know something is not being done.

      If you were having an issue at work, for whatever reason, and you were under a performance warning or something – would you want your manager sharing with the team how she’s handling it? Doubt it.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        No, I wouldn’t want them to share*, but one of the comments on Monday told of a PIP and firing that took a year. So communicating with the rest of the team that you at least know there is a problem seems necessary, because that is enough time that good people can find another job…because nothing appears to be happening.

        *Although, the one time I was on a PIP, I shared that myself.

    4. Adam V*

      I think the main difference is how the manager reacts to you bringing it up. If you get the impression that she’s blowing you off, or just saying “okay, I’ll take care of it”, then you’ll probably walk away feeling unhappy. If, on the other hand, you get the impression that she wants to stay informed on how it’s holding you up, or how often it happens, then you’ll walk away feeling like “my concerns are being noted”.

      Granted, it’s entirely possible that the boss could give the wrong impression and be doing the right thing – and over time, you’ll learn the truth by what happens with your coworker.

    5. Anna*

      I think there are very narrow definitions of when you can address it if it doesn’t directly affect your work. And I’m not sure I understand you needing to know if your manager is bad or good. Don’t you have other data points to use to determine that other than what may or may not be happening with this particular coworker?

      Other than that, I would say since the way this coworker is failing doesn’t impact what you’re doing, your manager isn’t obligated to tell you there may be an issue.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        And I’m not saying that the co-worker failing is my problem. I’m saying that knowing your manager will take care of an issue is important. As others have said, there are other data points, and a good manager will be obvious on those other points. But a mediocre manager may not, and you’d want to know if you’ve got a problem manager. Knowing that they’re aware and taking care of issues is important.

    6. Amber T*

      If the coworker’s work isn’t affecting you, how the manager manages said coworker also shouldn’t affect you. If you like the way your manager handles everything with you and what does affect you, that’s what’s important. There could be a lot going on behind the scenes that you’re not privy to.

      I think you could only use your coworker’s lack of work as a measuring tool against yourself if/when you ask for a promotion/raise/increase in responsibility (without naming names, of course).

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think it really matters if you have an objectively-from-the-outside “good” manager. I think it matters only if you see the results of the management. Does your department get things done? Does your manager treat you right? Do your co-workers managed by the same manager pull their weight and get things to you on time?

      If all that’s happening, you just have to trust that the time off your colleague is taking is warranted—and that’s really between her and the manager you two share. That’s absolutely none of your business.

      When you say “doing lousy work, but their lack of work doesn’t affect you directly” does it visibly affect anyone else? Does it make your department look bad? Or your organization as a whole?

      I think if it makes your department or organization look bad, you should absolutely bring it up. If, however, your org. just wants to pay people to do nothing… well, unfortunately, it wouldn’t be the only workplace like that to exist.

    8. Ad Astra*

      Well, if you have a good manager, there’s a decent chance you won’t know how, exactly, she’s handling the situation. Because it’s not information you’re supposed to know, and good managers keep stuff like this private.

      It would make sense to address the rest of the team if their work was somehow affected, but absent of that, what’s there to say?

    9. FiveWheels*

      I feel a slacking coworker can be a big deal even if their work doesn’t directly affect you. It’s a morale killer to work hard while you see a colleague slacking off.

      Even if they work different hours or have lower pay, the appearance of unfairness should be avoided.

      As an analogy, one reason cited why friends shouldn’t manage friends (or managers and staff have romantic relationships) is that even if there is no favoritism, it could look to the rest of the staff that there is.

      Be fair and be seen to be being fair… Same goes with people slacking.

      1. NacSacJack*

        But in fairness we don’t all work on the same thing at the same time and sometimes some of us are underutilized in our positions at various times of the year. What are we supposed to do? Stare at an Excel worksheet ?

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yes, that’s my point — someone apparently slacking is a morale killer, and how does a manager properly address morale, without mentioning PIPs or medical treatment, or anything else that is none of our business.

        And no, we don’t all work on the same things, but we often have a team where we do similar work and have similar hours. And since we are human, we do look around us.

        1. Jinx*

          I have a coworker who does the same type of work as me but on different projects who routinely is at work for less than six hours. Makes more money than me too (he couldn’t figure out 401k forms when we started, asked me to help and showed me pages with his salary). Today he showed up at 10 AM (two hours after me), took a half hour longer lunch break (a total of 90 minutes) and left just now. This is fairly routine, not holiday-weekend-specific. I don’t keep a spreadsheet but I have line of sight to his desk so I see it.

          It’s none of my business, fair enough. But the appearance of someone working four to six hour days and making a lot more money in the same role is something that affects my morale.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            And your morale is something that your manager should care about. Especially if you’re a good worker.

    10. eee*

      I feel like doing lousy work might be something where you would want to know your manager deals with that appropriately–knowing that they tell them clearly what their shortcomings are, what they need to improve, etc. But for everything else, it’s hard to know whether that’s “slacking” or just taking advantage of having a lighter schedule than usual. For my job, there are two cycles that affect our business–the general season of work progression (some months everyone is really busy, some months pretty much everyone has more free time), and where their individual projects are. Recently it was our busy season, and all my projects were really busy, so I was super duper busy and stressed. I have a co-worker who I like, but who during this really busy season actually had a lot of free time. Her job is not the kind where she could take over any duties for other busy people, and I’ll admit, it was a bit frustrating for me to be so incredibly busy every day and see her take frequent breaks during the day. But then I recalled several months ago, where it was the season where everyone has more free time and my projects were all in stages where I had nothing I could do, and I had plenty of free time. A third party who had no idea about our pressures and schedules may have thought that our manager wasn’t dealing with the issues appropriately, and would have drawn incorrect conclusions about our manager’s ability to manage–when in fact I think recognizing that our schedules mean that some months will be frantic, and some weeks will be relaxed is actually a good manager. If they tried to fill up those few weeks where things are more relaxed, we’d certainly burn out. So, I think it would be really, really hard to draw conclusions about whether the manager is managing appropriately.

      1. eee*

        er, missed an important sentence–when I had plenty of free time, she meanwhile was working weekends, working nights, working 12 hour days, all while working with an incredibly stressful person and dealing with her child’s illness.

    11. JennyFair*

      I think this is a legitimate concern, because a manager that doesn’t ‘see’ lousy work is also unlikely to ‘see’ good work, and therefore unlikely to have your back, help your development and career progression, pay you reasonably for your work, etc.

      I worked in a department where the manager, in an attempt to foster a very positive atmosphere, bestowed the same praise on everyone. In the exact same words. At the exact same frequency. How on earth were any of us supposed to know how we were really doing? Like it or not, some comparison is necessary, and feedback is extremely necessary, for those of us who want to succeed. Also important is feeling you can trust your manager.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      While I understand the sentiment that if it does not effect you, you need to ignore it, I also know that sentiment works up to a point and then it does not work any more. One lazy member of a group can kill the entire group’s efforts. A good manager knows that and a bad manager may know that but will feel no sense of urgency in dealing with this.

      In other words, it can be a year or even longer before you are able to conclude, “Nope. My boss is not doing anything here.” Added wrinkle, maybe your boss is all over it, doing everything possible and upper management will not support your boss. So you can make guesses about where the problem is but you can’t prove it.

      Generally speaking, bosses who allow slackers to go on forever, are also the type of bosses that make other bad calls. If this is the only problem you are having with the job and the boss, let it go. It’s not worth letting it wear you down to the point you want to leave the job. The bottom line is that you need your paycheck, Slacker is not worth getting upset over and possibly losing your paycheck.

      If you are having other problems with the job then my suggestion is to look to see what you can do to calm those other problems. Sometimes people get thinking about what Slacker is doing today and they forget that they need to look at the big picture. While Slacker is annoying, there are also ten other serious issues with the job. Thinking about Slacker can be avoidance behavior that allows us to avoid thinking about and working on what is really wrong with the job.

  10. bassclefchick*

    Well, it’s official. My last day at this assignment is next week. And I have nothing lined up next. Temp service is working on it, but nothing so far. And the permanent position I was hoping for is still stalled in the approval process, so it hasn’t been posted.

    I really wish I knew what I did to screw up my “career” so badly. I never WANTED to be a temp for the vast majority of my working life. Having a hard time and feeling like a failure. Hopefully something will turn up soon.

    2. Fabulous*

      I literally made this exact same post two weeks ago!!

      I was working as a temp in a year-long position, was hoping to be hired on but it didn’t happen. I didn’t have anything lined up (not for lack of trying) even though I was working with 3 temp agencies to find something in addition to my own targeted job search. I ended up in another 4-month temp position two days into unemployment, but it’s better than nothing. And it adds on some new skills to my resume. Eventually I’ll probably have to update my resume to have a bulk “Temporary Assignment” section rather than list each job individually…

    4. A. D. Kay*

      Don’t be so hard on yourself! You didn’t screw anything up. Temp work is becoming more and more common in this economy, sad to say. I hate it too.

    6. Formica Dinette*

      I don’t know you, but chances are you’re not the problem and the gig economy is. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this situation because I’ve been there and it sucks.

      1. I'm a Little Teapot*

        Yep. I’m also a temp, and probably won’t be hired perm for several years if ever. I’ve been a temp various other places for most of the last six years. A fair number of other people I know are in a similar situation. Companies are just cheap; why pay benefits when you can get the work without?

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          That last sentence is key – if a company can cut corners and find a way to save money, they will.

    7. bassclefchick*

      Thanks for the encouragement! It’s so helpful to know that, no, I’m not alone and I didn’t screw up.

      1. MMSW*

        I’m temping too while I look for something I actually want to do long term. It can be demoralizing, but ther upside is I don’t feel trapped in any job like I did when I was a perm employee at jobs I was miserable at. This current temp job wants me to stay on but I’m realizing I’ll be tired and unhappy if I stay after being here for about a month. If this was a perm job i’d feel obligated to stay at the job and miserable for a year or two.

        1. bassclefchick*

          Such a good point! And one of my coworkers told me today that I’m well respected at the company because I do great work and fit in with their culture. So, I do know that they WANT to hire me. But they just can’t snap their fingers and make it happen.

          Thanks so much for the support!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      It’s darkest before the dawn. Trite saying, but some times it is true. Think back in your life when things looked bleak and then suddenly it changed. Just when you thought you could not hack one more minute of Situation X, the whole thing changed and you no longer had to deal with Situation X.

      Hang tough. The longer you work at something the higher and higher the chances of success are.

  11. anon today*

    I’m an admin assistant at a university. I’ve only been here for ~1 year but know being an admin is not what I want for my career. Problem is, I have no idea what I DO want and have no idea how to figure it out. Working at this university, I get a certain amount of free classes every year. I’d like to try taking a couple, but I don’t want to be taking aimless classes either – I’d like to have some kind of a (serviceable) goal in mind.

    I made an appointment at the university’s student employment services to talk to one of their career coaches – I know AAM frowns on their advice usually, but they’re free for me to use and that’s what I can afford.

    Any suggestions for other ways to figure this out?

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      Are there certain aspects of your job your really like, or really hate? Admin positions and tasks can vary so widely. What about outside of work – what interests you? What are your hobbies? What do you hate?

    2. SophieChotek*

      Do any of those “aimless” classes excite you to go in a different direction? (if you’re unsure, I might advocate staying in not-your-final-job and taking other classes, perhaps with more directionality in mind.)

      Also besides college-employment services, books like “What Color is Your Parachute” (and a gazillion others) offer assessment tests; not sure how helpful they really are, but sometimes just sitting down and taking the test and seeing the 40-50 types of jobs might spark something.

      I feel you. I feel the same way. I know the job I have now isn’t something I want to do, but I cannot figure out what I want to do next either.

    3. Emmie*

      A lot of people are in your situation. Once you start taking classes and doing volunteer work, you’ll be able to narrow down your interests. I usually advise people to go practical in this situation like business, engineering (if you like sciences), nursing, etc… A major that can open different doors or lead to a defined career path. Sometimes what we like doing is different than what we are interested in studying. Maybe look at some job descriptions and think about the kind of life you’d like to have (8-5? want to work overtime? project work? like details? Want to work solo or with people? Like to deal with problems? Do you mind working weekends? If you like social work then can you live with the low pay, etc…). It sounds silly, but these are real long term quality of life issues. A degree was, for me, about quality of life and opportunities. We’ll all have some advice here. I’ll be interested in what others say.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Sometimes what we like doing is different than what we are interested in studying.

        And sometimes what we like doing is not always something we’re actually good at, so I’d encourage OP to sit down and figure out what her actual skills and abilities are, use those key words on job sites to pull up job descriptions, and see what’s out there for people with her skill set.

    4. Amber T*

      Not really helpful advice other than to say I’ve been in your shoes! Started off as an admin (in finance, not at a university) and didn’t like it, but I had no idea what else I wanted to do. I started taking on more work from a different department and (after a while) was promoted into a position there. Still not sure if it’s what I want to do with my life, but it’s a pretty steady career.

      You could also try volunteering at an organization you’re passionate about. You could always get an inside glance at what a company like that needs, and whether that might suit you.

    5. Mona Lisa*

      I am in a very similar position (admin at a large university) and am also taking classes as you mentioned. Something I’ve started thinking more about in addition to “What do I want to do?” is also “What kind of life do I want to lead?” This is leading me towards jobs that can be done remotely so I’m starting to look at some of the computer science classes offered by our university. Have you also thought about how you want your career to impact your life? Does it need to be something about which you’re super passionate, or are you ok with just having a job that you can be good at?

    6. Isben Takes Tea*

      Instead of focusing on figuring out the subject or field, try evaluating the type of work out work environment you excel in.
      –Do you prefer doing the same sort of processes/information every day, or do you prefer going start to finish with a complete project?
      –Do you need to stop working at five, or do you need to stay until the job’s done?
      –Do you like planning, problem solving, or customer service?
      –Are you happy in a support role doing whatever is asked, or do you want to be a decision maker?
      –Do you like being interdependent on a team, or working solo?
      –What kind of management style gets the most out of you? The least?

      Knowing what kind if environment suits you best is a powerful aid in career hunting, because almost every industry has roles in those environments. Then you can look for an industry that interests you and research those roles.

      As far as classes go, I’d say no class is ever wasted if you’re genuinely interested in the subject.

    7. Jadelyn*

      You might have fun flipping through the Occupational Employment Statistics’ Occupation Profiles catalog (http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_stru.htm) – I’ve done that in the past while doing career planning for myself. It’s a big list of job titles with job descriptions, employment outlook statistics (average pay, unemployment rates, etc.) and stuff like that. It might help you get a better sense of what you might be interested in just by showing you what’s out there.

    8. EA*

      So I am going through something similar. I know I need a more quantitative job because I dislike the social parts of my job.
      I spent a lot of time googling different jobs, you can usually find a “this is what I do” article on the internet. I also read a lot of job descriptions. I am trying to reverse engineer getting into certain project management jobs, and want to be able to expand my job to include parts of the requirements for those jobs.

      Anyways, not sure if this will help, but it is what I have done.

    9. danr*

      Take the “aimless” classes, without a goal in mind. You’re getting a valuable chance to explore everything. There’s a good chance that one of those classes will prove to be very interesting and then you’ll have a goal in mind.

    10. Manders*

      I could have written this a few years ago, although I was working for a small doctor’s office, not a university. I looked into getting various certifications, but in the end nothing was a substitute for learning what I did and didn’t like while actually working. In my case, that meant going down an internal checklist of what I did and didn’t like doing with my time. Filing, organizing, managing someone else’s schedule, talking to clients, marketing, editing, crunching numbers, designing a website, cleaning–the advantage of being an admin is that you get to try a lot of hats on for size, especially if you’re in a small department.

    11. Terra*

      If you think you might be interested in getting a degree (any kind of degree) you could start with working on your general education credits and see if any of those jump out at you as well.

    13. Pwyll*

      Just to add: While I think we spend a lot of time talking about the bad advice career services sometimes provide, I think that has more to do with the idea that people don’t often talk about things that work, but LOVE to talk about things that don’t.

      That is to say, there are absolutely good career services offices who give great advice. But there are also bad ones too, so going to them isn’t a mistake so long as you go in with an open mind and verify their advice. Grain of salt and all that.

      As for your career: I think admin jobs can lay the groundwork for a great many other positions. Is there any opportunity to branch out at the University with your own work? Can you participate on the admin-side on project management or presentations, that will give you the insight to perhaps do that work in the future? (I know someone who spent her admin time proofing Project Management plans for PM boss, who was able to transition into being a PM herself based on the experience, for example).

      I also echo the other comments above: perhaps focus less on “What” your doing, and focus on skills you enjoy. Do you like reading/proofreading? Take some classes on Communications or Journalism. Is managing the schedule something you do with ease? Perhaps audit a logistics course. Events? Lots of event management, Project Management courses. Etc.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        As for your career: I think admin jobs can lay the groundwork for a great many other positions.

        Yup. I started out as an admin, then became a paralegal, and now have a senior role in my particular niche of the risk management/risk financing (insurance) field.

    14. Lily in NYC*

      Think about what you would do with your life if you were independently wealthy – it might not be realistic but it can be helpful about giving you an idea of where your interests lie. When I daydream like this, it makes me realize that I’d probably be more fulfilled with a non-office job with varied hours (kind of like a real estate agent) and that I like working with my hands (I fantasize about being a fancy carpenter).

    15. Jules the First*

      Let me put in a good word for Cal Newport’s “So Good They Can’t Ignore You” – it’s a study of people who are passionate about their work and the process they went through to get there…I found it very helpful for understanding what types of tasks I’m interested and engaged in.

    16. k*

      trial and error. free classes sound like a dream. follow your gut in re. to interest, but don’t rule things out because they sound hard.

      i think it’s fine to seek advice but i wouldn’t look for advice specific to yourself. i would focus more on methods to explore career options, and spend a lot of time asking people about their own paths.

      don’t let other people pigeonhole you when you’re seeking advice, but most importantly, don’t do that to yourself. you can (and likely will) have more than one career. in one year of work, i met a nurse who was formerly a construction worker, another who was formerly an engineer, and another one who had gone to art school before her BSN. in college, i met a former boeing engineer who quit to go to art school.

    17. Snargulfuss*

      How did you come to work at the university? Was it something you thought you’d enjoy or just an available job? I also started my career in various admin jobs at universities. I didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but I knew that I liked school. I thought I might like advising, so I started doing informational interviews with advisors at the university and eventually decided I wanted to go into career services. Universities have tons of different types of jobs, so you might want to start talking to others that work there. Pay attention to those people who seem particularly engaged in their work. You might think that working in, say, the Registrar’s Office sounds super boring, but as you talk to people you might be surprised at what the job actually entails.

    18. Not So NewReader*

      I’d recommend starting with your natural abilities. What are you naturally good at? If you are not sure, what do you get compliments on from others? What types of things make others groan and yet you have no problem, it’s just another day for you.

      Anything is fair game here. Do you go out and work happily in your veggie garden, that no one else in your household will even look at? Are you THE person Great Aunt Sally wants to talk to when she needs help filling out her tax form? Look at your life with fresh eyes. We gravitate to our natural abilities. You are probably already dabbling in something that you can build in to a direction in life for yourself.

  12. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

    I made it to the third and final round of interviews and was wondering what you all thought of this. The final and most stringent round was conducted by an outside recruiter – it’s someone who has a relationship with the company but does not work there and doesn’t make final decisions. There some red flags through the whole process but I was just wondering if this is common? I’ve never encountered it before!

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      That’s a little different, but I wouldn’t consider it a red flag. It probably doesn’t hurt to have an outside perspective not entrenched with your org’s hiring process to give you some fresh perspective.

    2. MsMaryMary*

      Something similar happened to me when I was interviewing at my current job. Are you interviewing at a smaller company, or maybe one with a limited HR department (or no HR)? I work at a family business, about 80 people, but no real HR staff. My last interview here was with an HR consultant who is actually a client, but who does not work for the company. It was also the most rigorous interview in the process. I think they wanted a “professional” opinion before they hired me.

      Then again, our hiring process is inconsistent and not super great, so I don’t know if we’re a great example.

      1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

        Yes it’s a small company with no HR! I think it’s probably the same thing – that they wanted the person to be well-vetted, but they are not good at doing it themselves. I just thought it was weird that it would truly be the final step in the whole thing, but you and the person above brought up some good points about it.

    3. Pwyll*

      I’ve seen this a lot for early-stage companies, or companies with venture-backed financing, as a way for the majority investor to ensure the business is hiring the best employees, and not just hiring friends/the first person to walk in the door, and to verify that good hiring practices are being used (to protect the investment).

      So, I don’t think it’s necessarily odd, though usually they’re not the last interviewer. I’m not sure it’d be a major red flag unless something seemed off about the conduct of the third party interviewer.

    4. Laura*

      That’s not common, but if it’s company policy, then I wouldn’t be too worried. Is that what they normally do during hiring?

      1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

        I’m not sure because it’s a very small company (10-20 people, I think).

        1. Wheezy Weasel*

          I think it might be a positive sign…one of the most rewarding interview experiences I had was for a law firm that hired an outside, technical-focused company to give me a technical interview. That step told me that the law firm was serious about evaluating my skills and realized they didn’t have the ability to do so by themselves. They didn’t have final authority, but it was midway or most of the way through the process, which I called the ‘veto power’ step.

  13. AP*

    So the topic of health initiatives in the workplace has come up a few times here, and I had to share this because I think it’s wacky. We can earn money for completing challenges, assessments, and a “biometric screening” that includes cholesterol, height, weight, BMI, blood pressure, whatever. We all went to the screening and I actually thought it was nice to do this type of screening yearly, so you could catch any potential health problems. But guess what? The points, which are translated into money, are only awarded if you “pass” each section and fall in the “desirable” range. I found that just so demoralizing. I’m not against knowing more about my health or being advised to take action on certain things, but I just found that totally silly. Rant over. Thanks for listening, people of AAM :p

    1. ZSD*

      Wow. That’s horrible. My old job rewarded us for doing an assessment, period, not for meeting magical numerical goals. And they didn’t even tell you this in advance?!

    2. Sadsack*

      What? Your company is given your test results to determine if you are enough to get a reward? Am I understanding that correctly? Or are you saying that you have to do each if the individual challenges or tests to get the reward?

      2. AP*

        Both. You can get points from challenges, but the big points are from meeting certain fitness criteria. So everyone will get some money, but the fittest of them all with get more.

        1. Oryx*

          I can sort of understand if they are using it as a tool to motivate people to get fit so they can meet that criteria but it’s still a really horrible idea.

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          Just like only the most athletic can get an A in PE class, no matter how hard the rest of us try.

          How do they deal with those with disabilities?

          1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

            This ticks me off.

            PE should grade for attendance only. You show up and at least *try* to participate to your ability, you get an A. But nope, let’s fail someone because they aren’t athletically talented.

            1. Kelly L.*

              Ugh, yeah, even klutzy me used to be able to get at least a B for showing up and wearing my gym clothes and participating, and often an A. I never had a gym teacher who flunked me just for sucking. And I’m pretty happy about that.

              1. Bea W*

                I had one gym teacher who was like this. He’d straight up tell the class showing up on time dressed in gym clothes and willing to participate was all he required. We didn’t actually have to be good at anything.

                I want to say PE was pass/fail in high school, but I may be wrong. It was definitely graded at lower levels. I could at least perform decently in track and field type things, but my skill at anything that involved the use of balls left a lot to be desired. The archery segment scared the crap out of me. I didn’t trust my aim or that of my classmates.

            2. Rachel*

              At my school, they wouldn’t flunk you in PE for sucking. If you showed up and at least tried, you got a C. This was what I got most of the time. Occasionally, if I was lucky enough to have a couple units of activities I was semi-decent at in one quarter, I did get a B. But that was rare!

          2. Amadeo*

            LOL, as far as PE is concerned, I think I got an ‘A’ because I tried. I certainly didn’t get it because I was good at it.

    3. ThatGirl*

      This sounds fairly similar to my work but what happens is that you get points (money off premiums) for a) filling out an assessment and b) going to the screening at all, plus additional $$ for falling into desirable ranges.

      I personally fell short on the BMI goal but I can make up additional $$ up to the max by working with a health coach, going to the dentist, getting an eye exam, and there are other activities and options to choose from.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I should note at my company it’s handled by a third party and the info is not shared except as a mass statistical sort of thing.

    4. Lillian McGee*

      Yech. They had a “free health screening” in our building the other day too. I can’t think of anything I’d want to do less than getting measured, weighed and otherwise prodded in front of all my coworkers. Also I’m sure it was mainly a ploy to try to get people to join the gym. No thanks!

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        We occasionally have health screenings at work, too. I know I’m healthy (because I get an annual physical at my doctor’s office that is covered by our insurance) and I definitely don’t want to get the screening at work.

    6. SophieChotek*

      Wow that is awful.
      Seems like an invasion of health issues too. (maybe not literally, if one has all agreed to it at this point.) But I wouldn’t be happy with my employer now saying, “well, we know Sophie is unhealthy, look at her scores!”
      I agree with what others said — demoralizing.

    7. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I actually submitted an question to AAM similar to this. There is a bonus program at work, and literally only skinny people can qualify. Even if you do all of the iniatives and go above and beyond, people with a BMI > 25 can not qualify.

      :<

      I feel like discriminating against fat people is the new "In" thing.

      1. Ama*

        Which is so ridiculous because BMI is not a reliable measurement of health, and plenty of elite athletes would be considered unhealthy under that restriction.

        1. blackcat*

          And 25 is low….. a couple of studies have shown that the people who live the longest tend to have BMIs in the 24-28 range. Called under 25 healthy just seems crazy to me.

      2. Oryx*

        Trust me, as a fat person, it’s not new. Plus, as Ama points out, the BMI is really the worst method to measure people against when it comes to health and fitness. My doctor is slowly starting to be less of a PITA about my weight, but she still needs improvement in some areas. I mentioned I was supposed to start training for a race soon and her response was “Oh, are you doing that now? Jogging?”

        No, doc. I run. I’m a runner. A 3x half-marathoner, thankyouverymuch.

        1. Rebecca in Dallas*

          Hahaha, there is nothing worse than being called a jogger! I always say that a runner is only called a “jogger” by the newspaper when something bad happens. “Jogger finds dead body” “Jogger mauled by dog” “Jogger hit by car”

            1. Rebecca in Dallas*

              Yeah, as soon as there are “joggers” on the screen, you just know they’re going to be the unfortunate ones to find the body!

    8. Adam V*

      That’s crap. What about people who start out less healthy, but are gradually getting themselves healthier over time? Shouldn’t that be rewarded too?

      1. AP*

        That was my big complaint, too! Say you learn you have high blood pressure and then you go and take steps to address it. That’s wonderful! You should get a reward! But that’s not how it works. There are challenges you can do to earn points, but they are worth way less than the health criteria points. Kinda lame.

      2. Lizketeer*

        That’s how my company does it. There are 2 different plans – maintenance and progress. If you are in the healthy range and stay there, you get rewards. If you are out of the range, but make progress to get there (some % I believe), you get rewards. And I don’t believe one is better than the other

    9. T3k*

      Good grief, they still stick to BMI after it’s been proven over and over it can’t differentiate between muscle and fat?

      1. AP*

        The funny part is that after you have your numbers calculated, you meet with a “consultant” who goes over the numbers with you. The guy I met with was like “Ignore all this BMI stuff, it’s not correct. They just make the categories pretty strict to make it harder to earn points. You’re in great health, get outta here and have a great day”. At least the consultants were honest, I appreciate that!

      2. Ama*

        Heh, should have read down in the chain some more.

        I took a nutrition class in college over 15 years ago and we were taught then that BMI was not a useful measurement — it’s astounding that it’s still being used (by health-related companies, no less).

      3. Ashley (in PA)*

        I was just about to say this. I’m fairly thin/average (wear a US womans size 4/6) but my BMI is “overweight” because I have a lot of muscle weight due to being an athlete growing up.

        1. Izzy*

          I suspect BMI continues to be used because it’s easy to measure- just plug height and weight into a formula. Easier than measuring body fat for example. For population health, especially if you’re surveying a lot of people, getting height and weight is the only thing practical. But using that for individual health assessments, not that useful.

    10. Terra*

      IANAL but if you’re in the US this might actually be illegal. The affordable care act allows for wellness discounts but by law they must be nondiscriminatory such that you can receive the reward both if you meet a certain weight (for example) or fail to but take certain additional required actions such as reading a fact sheet on healthy BMI and signing it (for example). Link in the following comment.

      2. AF*

        That’s exactly what I was thinking. This can’t possibly be legal, and certainly not ethical.

    11. A. D. Kay*

      That is so insulting and demoralizing! It is amazing to me that companies still do this.

    12. The Rat-Catcher*

      Yuck! We have incentives, but they come from taking the actions, not the ranges you fall into. Seems really discriminatory and gross.

    13. eee*

      Um, that’s also really dumb–a lot of time companies do health initiatives to try and save themselves money with health insurance. If only people who fall into the “desirable” range get points, that discourages people from the “undesirable” range from participating in the first place-meaning people who are fat, people have cholesterol problems, people with other types of health issues–aka mostly people who are more likely to NEED those screenings, and for whom those screenings would be really helpful.

    14. Jen*

      Our company does this, but in the first year you get points just for doing the test. In subsequent years, you only get points/credit if you complete an action and POSSIBLY if you improve (i forget). You can go from extremely high BP to slightly less high BP and still get the points.

    15. Anonimity*

      That’s a pretty horrible policy. Our firm does something similar but they don’t have access to the results, at least they claim not to anyway, because it’s none of their business.

  14. The Butcher of Luverne*

    I had an interview this week that went pretty darn well (although you never know, right?). Fingers crossed for a call-back.

    One of my first questions was, “Are you adding to the department or replacing someone?” The answer was, “We’re replacing someone who does not, at this point, know that they are being replaced.”

    I appreciated the honesty.

  15. KatieKate*

    I JUST HAD A GREAT SECOND INTERVIEW OVER SKYPE AND NOW THEY’RE BRINGING ME INTO MEET THE TEAM

    SENDING THIS KIND OF FORTUNE IN EVERYONE ELSE’S DIRECTION

    *throws glitter*

    1. Kristine*

      That is awesome! Congrats and good luck on the in-person interview. I’m also going to absorb some of that good fortune glitter for myself.

    3. Worker B*

      Congrats to you and thank you for sharing the good fortune, could definitely use some :)

    6. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Congrats but darn glitter. I’ll be finding this for weeks now. ;)

      (Congrats!)

    8. Snazzy Hat*

      Huzzah! I hope you’re a great fit with the team! And thanks for the much-needed fortune glitter!

  16. Anony*

    I left a toxic work environment about 2 years ago. This was my first professional job and, at the time, I didn’t have the confidence or knowledge to say no and stand-up for myself. I started having panic attacks at my desk and the thought of staying made me literally sick. This was also a job that where everyone was “life a family”, and you know how toxic that can be. Because of that, it was really hard for me to leave…it took me 2 years to build up the courage to even start a job search, and I still felt guilty. I cried when I gave my notice. Now, even 2 years removed from the situation and a billion times more knowledgeable and confident, I still get panicy when thinking about it and have some post-job PTSD that I fear I will carry with me forever.

    I keep in touch with one person from that job, whose friendship I truly value. She doesn’t know all of the details…she still works there, so in an effort to not badmouth my former employer or poison her thoughts against them (or my reputation), I still haven’t told her everything. I found out from her recently that, after I left, I was basically badmouthed by my former boss and the employee that replaced me. Apparently there was a lot of “If she had just talked to us about what was bothering her…” and “I can’t believe she left right before a huge merger!” (note: there was always a huge merger).

    On one hand, this just solidifies the reasons that I left. I know it was the right choice and this was a toxic environment. I know I’m better off. I want to not care. But on the other hand, I do still care. I did everything I could to handle things professionally. I gave ample notice. I thought I left on a good note. I’ve even gone back to visit and say hi. And now I find out that none of it really mattered, and I hate that I still care. I feel like I did something wrong, and I am equal parts angry and sad.

    Partially, this was just to vent, but also I want to know – how do you get over the feelings of something like this? When do you stop feeling guilty? When does the anxiety that comes just from thinking about it end?

    1. Jadelyn*

      It can take a long time. I had a toxic workplace that, thankfully, I ended up getting let go from because I got so disconnected from my work as a way to cope with the BS, and because of the way people had talked to me about my predecessor when I started I *know* they’ve talked shit about me after I was gone. For…I want to say about a year after that place, I would literally physically cringe and feel sick whenever I thought about that place and wondered what they said about me. What got me past most of that was my current job, where I’ve been surrounded by incredibly supportive people who genuinely want to see me succeed and are happy to share skills and knowledge and mentor me, so that started to counterbalance the “oh god people hate me” thing left from toxic job.

      Given that you’ve already been out of there for longer than that, and it sounds like you’ve got a pretty healthy workplace now but are still struggling with this, have you considered therapy? Not necessarily long-term, but just talking with a counselor or therapist for a couple of months to get some help in mentally reframing the issue so you can move forward.

    2. Rex*

      Congrats on your escape!

      I think this just comes down to forgiving yourself. You didn’t do anything wrong by leaving — people leave good and bad jobs all the time. The fact that they blame you for it? Says more about them than you. They can and have done just fine without you.

      Also, maybe ask your friend to stop giving you updates about what people are saying about you? Honestly, if your friend is offering this information unsolicited, it would make me question the friendship a bit.

    3. Lily Evans*

      There’s no magic way to stop feeling guilty. I had a similar situation and reframing the way I looked at it helped. People leave jobs. It happens. You didn’t owe them talking through what was bothering you when you were already set on leaving. That would’ve just wasted their time and yours. At the same time, you worked there long enough (I’m assuming) that you developed relationships with your coworkers and even when you don’t really like people, it can be hard to just completely stop caring about what’s happening with them. Accept that without beating yourself up about it. You left and they took it badly, that’s on them. When you think about them, wish them well but then give a mental shrug and move on, don’t dwell on it.

      But this is all easier said than done. I’d recommend talking to a therapist to help process some of those feelings, it helped me!

    4. Mark Eddy*

      If after 2 years, you are still thinking about it to an amount that distresses you, I would look into therapy. You may not need that many sessions just someone who you can talk to about about it and learn to let go of those upsetting thoughts. I get it though. Perseverating is a real thing.

    5. Laura*

      Two years down the line and you’re still feeling this way? THERAPY. Like, seriously. This is impacting your wellbeing from a great distance. If you haven’t already, please please please seek professional help.

    6. The Rat-Catcher*

      High school was like this for me. I always got told that this was what I would have to put up with in the “real world,” and then I started working and people have been super nice and normal.

      I think part of what’s hard here is accepting that you did everything right and it wasn’t enough. That’s a hard pill to swallow any time, but the more you work toward that (that there’s nothing further you can do), the better off you’ll be.

      Also, your current experiences seem to indicate that this wasn’t a problem with you. If it were, you’d have problems in every situation – you’re the common factor! But it’s the dysfunctional workplace that is the issue.

      It gets better as the current good experiences help solidify your perception of “normal.” The longer you go on in a normal environment, the clearer it will be in your mind how abnormal your first workplace was.

      I second (or fifth, apparently) Jadelyn’s suggestion that you might consider processing all this with a counselor, if that is an option for you. If not, know that it will pass and you’re doing great!

    7. AF*

      Anony, I totally understand your situation. I left two similar positions in the past. I’ve often wondered whether my former boss (who was just totally incompetent and a cheapskate) had badmouthed me to clients after I left. He had a habit of badmouthing my predecessors (in order to cover his own failings). I still deal with it. You’ve done a great thing by posting here, because of the supportive AAM community. And I think actually think it really helps to read about all of the toxic workplaces that people have written in about here. I agree with others that therapy could be a huge benefit, and not talking to this person who’s feeding you gossip (and whether this gossip is even accurate!).

      Also, it sounds like you’ve done a lot of soul searching, and are more confident now. As you said, you did everything you felt that you could do at the time. You cannot change toxic people. The badmouthing your previous manager has done has more to do with them than anything YOU did. You may feel like you failed at something, but really, you succeeded in protecting your sanity. Because this job was your first professional job, it may feel like this kind of environment is the norm, and that could influence how you view work life. As Alison has said, this would have been really harmful to you in the long run, so it’s great that you recognized that this isn’t normal and got away from the mess. Focus on what you did right for yourself, even if some jerks don’t like you for doing it.

      Best of luck to you as you navigate your feelings. I hope you get some time over the weekend to relax!

    8. h.cowl*

      Are you in therapy at all? I felt very silly for going to therapy for a job I’d been fired from over a year previously, but it’s amazing how much it helped. 2 years later, I can say it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        Yes yes yes! Therapy helped me a ton with a crappy work situation, and I wasn’t even super impressed with my therapist. It’s amazing how many things we hold on to, in part because they feel too dumb to say out loud, but just having the opportunity to voice those things was so helpful.

      2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        I truly believe (and constantly tell others!) that every single person on the face of this earth can benefit from therapy. Heck, even therapists have to go to therapy before they can provide therapy!

        Therapy can provide coping skills for everything from anger to sadness, help you to process difficult events, and even just help you to continue to progress forward in your life.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Just a few thoughts of practical things you can do right now:
      You are friends with this person. I think that holding back with her is causing you some tension in current time. You can decide to see less of her. You can decide to be more forth coming with her. I’d make some type of shift in that relationship because by holding back you are still feeling the power of the toxic place. Think about how this friendship might be causing Toxic Place to still have some type of hold on you.

      Most toxic places pretty much cry, “Oh she should have told us there was a problem.” Yeah, right. That went so well for the last five people who told you. NOT. That line is a fairly common rebuttal. Don’t grant this babble too much power inside your thoughts. It was fairly unhelpful of your friend to relay this to you, I am sure she meant well but it’s not helpful information, UNLESS it confirms for you that you made the right decision.

      Going forward. Basically you are stuck right now. But you can find a way out. Others have suggested counseling and I agree. But I also suggest on reading up on toxic work places and bully bosses. First to learn that you are not alone, unfortunately this is too common a problem. Second to learn how you want to handle such a situation if you ever encounter it again.
      We feel stuck, like someone took our power away from us, if we do not learn how to handle tough-tough situations or build a plan of what we can do if we see it again. One of the things to learn is how to identify toxic situations quicker. Granted it is hard to read other people’s stories about toxic places, but in time it is less hard and you start seeing patterns and learning the mechanics of the situation. Knowledge is power. Part of your stuckness now is the lack of new knowledge.

      Yes, it will always be with you. And in some ways that is okay. However the way you perceive it will change. The way to start this change is to tell yourself, “this is part of my life that I will always remember.” Start there with a simple acknowledgement that what you saw and learned will shape you and your life for a long time to come. The opposite reaction of expecting it to go away seems to cause more problems than it solves. Decide it probably won’t go away and it is now a part of your life’s story.

      Lastly, this one is going to sound silly. Try it before you judge. Each time you think of Old Place, stop yourself and say, “That is not happening anymore. It is over. OVER. DONE.” Sometimes our mushy brains forget that we have moved to a different place and we have to remind ourselves that the bad thing has stopped. If you forget to do this sometimes just start fresh and renew you commitment to reminding yourself that it is over.

  17. Frustrated Optimist*

    I actually tried submitting this question on last week’s open thread Friday, but I was late to the party and I don’t think many people saw it. Anyway, here we go again.

    I have been trying to get into a major healthcare system in the Midwest for the past year. I have been applying to positions which are in education, administration, customer service, or some combination thereof. (My background comprises all of the above). Three times now, I have been selected for a phone interview. I’ll sign up for an interview slot, and usually the soonest available is about ten (10) days out. However, in each case, prior to the phone interview, I’ve been notified that the position has been filled, or that I am no longer in contention.

    The first time was a bummer. The second time seemed like a bad coincidence. By the third time, though, I am starting to wonder if there’s something else at play.

    Does anyone have any insight into this situation….? I have some vague indication that the positions are being filled internally, but I can’t confirm that. Do you think I was every *really* in contention? Or is the institution just going through the motions of “considering” external candidates when really they had an internal candidate all along? Does the fact that the phone interviews are always scheduled ten (10) days out suggest that external candidates are being treated more as “back-up” candidates, if their internal person declines?

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I know at my hospital we are required to leave the role open a certain amount of time for internal candidates. Some new managers mistakenly think that they must interview all internal candidates! This leads to a long time before externals get a chance to apply and often I see managers “settle” for an internal applicant because the role has been open for 4 months by that point and they just need a body to fill the space!

      1. Frustrated Optimist*

        Very interesting insight; thank you. It did not even occur to me that by the time I see a job posting, it may have been posted internally for a longer time. If there’s a similar practice in the hospital system I’m applying to, that could explain quite a bit.

    2. BRR*

      Hmm that is really weird. If the last time was really recent can you respond and say this has happened multiple times and ask about it? Do you know anyone that works there and could ask about it?

      I’m also just throwing this out there that if you’re applying to a lot of jobs at the same employer in a lot of different areas it could hurt your chances. Not sure if that’s in play here.

      1. Frustrated Optimist*

        Thank you for the feedback. Yes, during the phone call with the HR rep who told me that we would not be having our phone interview after all, I did mention that this has happened multiple times, but she had no insight to offer. Similarly, when I’ve spoken to people who work in this mega-hospital system, all they can say is, “Yeah, these things happen. Don’t get discouraged!”

        I also hear what you are saying about applying to multiple positions in various areas. There is no way I would try this with a smaller organization, but this hospital system is huge with possibly dozen of HR screeners. In fact, each time I’ve been contacted by HR for a phone interview, it’s been a different screener.

        But thanks for the validation that this is indeed weird!

        1. BRR*

          I would just go with that the system is so large the left hand doesn’t know what the right is doing. Also there may be multiple screeners but are they using one ATS system.

        2. Blue Anne*

          From what you said I’m imagining something like the CLE Clinic which seems to be all over the place here. I would think it was totally appropriate to have multiple applications out to them.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You could be right that internal candidates get preference.

      Not the same field but our board interviewed three candidates for a position. The first person knocked it out of the ball park. You know that wish list that Alison talks about? The candidate had like 80% of that wish extensive list nailed. It was almost senseless to continue interviewing. But you know Ms Wonderful could win a million dollars in the lottery and run away to Hawaii. Then we would be back at square one. We have an ethical obligation to do what is best for our org, we can’t be following hunches or making snap judgments. We continued on to interview several more incredible people. We must fill this position so we will keep the list of candidates handy until we know that the one we pick is actually employed by our org.

      I can be straight forward here, we never, ever thought we would be getting candidates of this caliber. Our group is going slowly and carefully because we realize we have been very fortunate. If #1 goes to Hawaii, we will move to #2. If #2 takes off for the South Pole, we will move to #3.
      My suggestion to you is that what seems like bad coincidences may actually be the result of a person or people working slowly and carefully because of having several good candidates including yourself. It’s hard to know what goes on behind the scenes and oh-so-easy to assume the worst.

  18. rock'n'roll circus*

    I just found out that at my new job, the girl who lives in the apartment directly next to me works at my company (~75) people. My teammate mentioned it to me, (The rest of the office works together on other things but I work on a small 9 person team that’s on a different product thus doesn’t deal with the rest of the office)

    I also have a verrrrrrrry loud cat that I am nervous has been driving my neighbors nuts. Is it odd if I ask her if she can hear my cat/if he’s annoying?

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Do you want to open up that conversation at work? I personally wouldn’t. If noise was bothering her I would assume she would come knock on your door. I would personally try to avoid drawing attention to being neighbors at work.

      1. rock'n'roll circus*

        She was the one who brought it up to the teammate, and also she has very limited English skills. (I work for a non-american company where this is pretty common cause management speaks her language and she’s an Engineer so no customer facing rolls ) so I worry that she wouldn’t mention it otherwise. But I am probably just being overly paranoid, I pretty much only hear noise from the person living directly above me, so it’s likely that is the case for them as well. (And the person below me has a loud dog so I pretty much don’t worry about them and it’s a mutual thing)

        1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          Because I do not like mixing home and work life. There is no paranoia involved.

          1. rock'n'roll circus*

            Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen in my industry. It’s pretty standard for us to get together all the time outside of work go out / I’ve been to several parties at other coworkers places etc.

          2. Anon For This*

            This isn’t even about mixing the two. You can acknowledge that you’re neighbors without inviting them to hang out for a barbecue.

            1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

              Avoid drawing attention =/= not acknowledging we are neighbors.

              Avoid drawing attention = not bringing up neighbor related issues at work.

              1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

                LOL. AAM posted a Saturday morning question exactly highlighting why I do not want to be living near co-workers!

      3. Sadsack*

        I wouldn’t have that specific conversation at work either, but in general I don’t think it’s a big deal if it is known you are neighbors.

    2. Cambridge Comma*

      You could ask another neighbour, but is there realistically something you can do if the answer is yes?

      1. rock'n'roll circus*

        Yeah, my cat stays in my bedroom at night and is loud. So I could move to the other bedroom in the apartment (that’s smaller) and on the side of the building where there is no next door neighbor. I’d just like to avoid that unless i know there’s actually a problem.

        1. E*

          Treat this as a separate issue, non work related. If your neighbor comes to you to complain, then you’d fix the problem. If she hasn’t come to knock on your door yet, it probably doesn’t bother her. But I wouldn’t bring this up with her at work.

    3. Anon Moose*

      Idk, I wouldn’t mention it unless it came up between you and the person who is actually your neighbor. I just don’t like to mix office and personal. I actually live down the street from a board member for my organization. I figured it out from an address form but haven’t acknowledged it because I’m not comfortable mixing the personal/professional with this board member.
      But really, at most if your coworker found out it might be “oh, you’re the one with the cat?” But it doesn’t sound like something a reasonable person would hold against you. If they had a problem as a neighbor, they’d knock on your door (or write a passive aggressive note.)

    4. BRR*

      I think there’s personal preference involved here. What I would do is first assess how sound proof your apartments are. If you hear a lot of what your neighbors are doing, next time I see the coworker (I wouldn’t seek her out) at home or work, I would say, “I know this is kind of weird but I’m worried my cat might be really loud. Can you hear it? I want to know so I could do something about it.” I think neighbors might be annoyed by things but rarely say something so I would want to be considerate, especially if they’re a good neighbor. That also reminds me that if she’s semi loud I would let it go.

      That all being said, it seems like the consensus is to not bring it up and I think it should be considered that so many people feel that way .

    5. Jaydee*

      I think it would be odd if your first interaction with your coworker/neighbor is to ask about the cat. I don’t think it would be odd at all to introduce yourself to the coworker/neighbor in general.

  19. orchidsandtea*

    I’m intrigued by the role of a business analyst. If we have any business analysts here, could you tell me a little bit about what your day and week are like, and what skills/training you use most?

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      BA’s are one of those roles that vary widely.

      I have had several BA roles:
      BAI: managed peoples schedules and fulfilled more of a “team lead” role; Researched the “why” of poor performance. Completed monthly reports.

      BAIII: (I skipped 2); Managed the data and appeals process for an incentive program. Used Macros to automate reports. Created flashly easy-to-understand dashboards.

      I would say the top skills I use are Excel, Visual Display of Quantitative Data, communicating trends and numbers to number phobic people.

      1. orchidsandtea*

        If someone on your team didn’t yet have BA experience, but wanted to move into it, what would you recommend they invest the most time learning, so they’d be able to serve the team best?

        I’m currently with a small market research consulting firm—and since it’s a tiny company, that means I research prospective clients and their industries, design and give presentations on highly abstract things to highly concrete people, do fill-in-the-gap admin work, and do lots of problem-solving. With my own processes, I’ve halved the time of doing core tasks over the last 3 years (while customizing each task more, not less). Right now I work from home, mostly independently, and I miss being on a team.

        What intrigues me about BA is 1) discovering how to make teams and processes work better, and 2) figuring out how to communicate that. And I like that the job description is broad, that it can vary depending on what’s needed. I love strategy, analyzing reasons (especially tricky ones that initially seem like something else), designing presentations, and especially bouncing ideas around with another person. I’m trying to figure out what sort of jobs I’d enjoy and be good at—and that I can train myself for without going back to school.

        Do you think I’d be eligible for an entry-level BA job, assuming I finesse my Excel and data-display skills? I have 6 years experience out of college, 3.5 in my current job, and half of a philosophy degree.

        1. Algae*

          I’m interested in more about this, too! I just spent a week at a conference that convinced my BA might be a great direction for me to move into.

        2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          I think if you can show analytical and process oriented accomplishments you can definitely get a entry level or BAII position.

    2. Dawn*

      I’m a BA, and currently my job is pretty much being a BA/ Business Development/ Operations Manager/ Management Consultant to the company I work for (~40 people).

      In this job and my last job I do/did a LOT of “here’s what I think we should do and why.” I jokingly describe myself as being like Vanilla Ice: “If you have a problem, yo, I’ll solve it.” I’ve done everything from advising what technologies should the company use in its products to what the company competitors are currently doing to development and implementation of a 1,3, and 5-year growth plan to advising management on how to run the company better to complete evaluation and overhaul of all internal processes. I’ve written job descriptions. I’ve conducted 1st round interviews. I’ve advised on when to implement a PIP, how to best go about writing a PIP, and how to best tell the employee that they’re on a PIP (and HUGE thanks to AAM for getting me through that process!)

      A lot different than Tortoise’s response, for sure, as I am not working for a consulting firm (where there’s usually a more traditional track from BA -> BA level II -> Senior BA, etc). I got my start as a Research Analyst at a software company on a small team that advised senior management on technologies and competitors as part of the launch and development of a new division of the company.

      1. orchidsandtea*

        That sounds amazing, honestly. In my current job, what I love most is researching industries and trends and causes, and then strategizing about possible directions to take. I’m a fast study, but I’d need a lot of training. What we do and how we do it has given me a lot of good thought-experience but not with the specific action pathways a bigger company would use. I’m so-so at Excel (I plan to fix that before applying to jobs), and I don’t have experience with any fancy programs because my small firm has zero budget for that.

        If you were hiring for an entry-level business analyst role, what would you look for, to know a person could really work for your team?

        1. Dawn*

          If I tell you to do something and you don’t understand, will you ask for clarification before jumping in? If you’re in the middle of something and are unsure of the best way to proceed, will you Google what to do before asking me for help? If you do come to me because you’re stuck, are you going to have already tried at least three other things before asking for help?

          Ultimately as a Business Analyst, I have to stand 100% behind what I say, no waffling and no doubts in my mind. The ONLY way I can do that is to know without a doubt that I have researched enough and prepared enough that when I recommend something I can back it up- either with hard evidence and numbers or accepted best practices or even a convincing argument that my gut says we should do it the way I recommend.

          In my last position, I reported to a CIO who would ask incredibly probing questions about any solution that was presented to him and that’s how I learned to be so thorough with any recommendation that I might have- something that’s served me extremely well throughout the years! Not only am I prepping a viable recommendation, I’m prepared to answer any iteration of “Why are you recommending this?” that can possibly be asked. At my last job, I had to present those answers formally, while at my current job it’s a much more informal kind of thing, but the answers are still there. BA’s have to justify everything and justify it THOROUGHLY, because the stuff that we recommend ultimately impacts the direction of the company which, in turn, impacts the bottom line. I’ve gotta be SURE before I open my mouth!

    3. Accidental Analyst*

      I didn’t start in a BA role. I was able to move into it by being the only person interested in designing and testing changes for the company’s internal software. In that company my duties included designing and testing software modules, writing manuals, providing intranet training, company reports, erp implementation and support. In my new company I’m still designing, testing, documentating and training software.

      Suggestion from someone who fell into the role, is the only BA in the company and the company doesn’t provide training – make an effort to learn the language and processes. It’s harder to move into new jobs if you struggle to articulate your role and achievements in BA talk.

      So even though I can’t really talk about specific training or skills, I can let you know personal traits that have stood me in good stead: a strong sense of curiosity, a desire to understand how things work/interact, a compulsion to improve processes, and an ability to combine logic and intuition.

      1. Dawn*

        I HAVE A SOLUTION FOR THIS!!!!
        There’s a book called the Business Analyst Body of Knowledge that you can buy off of Amazon and it basically lays out (in very dry terms) exactly what a BA should be able to do. It doesn’t tell you *how* to do any of those things but it explains them enough that you can tell when it’d be useful to trot them out.

        I bought it when I was looking for a job so I could make sure and explain all my job duties using the correct BA lingo. It absolutely made me go “Huh, yeah my Research Analyst position was absolutely a BA role.” It’s also been helpful to read about all of the different BA tools that I can then go Google and see if they’d be useful for me to use in various situations.

        1. Accidental Analyst*

          Once my current project quietens down I’ll have to make another attempt. Do you have any tips for getting through it? I don’t think I’ve ever made it past the first chapter or two.

          1. Dawn*

            It IS a slog. I didn’t read it exactly word for word- I did skim some bits. I brought it to work and read it in 20 minute chunks every day till I got through it :)

        2. orchidsandtea*

          Fantastic! Thank you! Are there any other books or resources you’d recommend?

          1. Dawn*

            Not right off the top of my head. I DO recommend you read every book you can on interoffice communication and management- Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People” was a huge help!

    4. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I’m a business analyst and my role is basically that of a project manager. I don’t really have any regular daily duties, just whatever needs to be done on the project(s) I’m currently working on. As another person said below “if you have a problem, yo i’ll solve it”, I solve problems for many different groups at my workplace. I may not actually DO the solving but I come up with those solutions and I make sure they get executed by bringing in other teams or experts. We’re often referred to an internal consultants. I work in HRIS so all of our project loosely handle upgrades and improvements to the HR technology and processes my company uses and typically involves working with many different groups inside and outside of HR and always with IT. I have never felt happier in any other position. It’s creative, it’s analytical, it’s social, it’s independent, but most of all it’s interesting and engaging. Plus sometimes I feel like Nancy Drew tracking down information and clues to solve process problems.

      I do agree that there are many different definitions of a business analyst (duluted_tortoiseshell’s experience sounds very different from mine) which is why I often use the project manager description for ease of understanding with people outside my group/company. I was an analyst in my old job in the finance industry and it was nowhere near what i’m doing now-that old job was very much the literal translation of analyzing and manipulating data and creating and automating reports-all of which did solve problems but not in the way I’m doing now.

      I would say the most important skills for my job are excellent communication, creativity, flexibility, the ability to ask questions and hunt down information, being able to see things from different perspectives, and the ability to logic it all out. Is that last one a skill? LOL.

  20. career change*

    How do you determine what the market rate is for salaries in a different industry? I’m trying to switch from project management in digital publishing (basically, apps that let you read content online) to project management in an industry more focused on tech/SaaS/B2B. Glassdoor and Payscale are all over the place so I can’t really pin down what salary I can expect or negotiate.

    I work in Boston, btw, so high cost of living factors into salary needs. I know other industries pay way more than I make now since the publishing industry has relatively low salaries, but I don’t want to end up asking for something too high and lose all chance of a job or negotiation.

    1. Anie*

      I work in Boston too!

      It’s tricky. Try to ask what their range is first, I guess. That way if it’s much higher than you were aiming for, they’ll pay what they think you’re worth. (Which is how it should always go, lol.) Otherwise give a range for what you’d actually accept.

      I know the people in my industry make a range. A lot of my friends make a good 10k less than I do, but when I applied to positions I gave a range 10k higher than I make and everyone has alwasy told me that’s within their budget, sooooo….

    2. Witty Nickname*

      PMI does an annual (I think) project management salary survey that you can filter by industry and market (there’s not always enough data available when you filter too much, but you can get a decent idea of the market rate).

      I don’t know if you have to be a PMI member to access the survey (I think PMI members just get an earlier view of it, but I’m not 100% sure), but it has been helpful to me in assessing whether or not I am ready to move on my from current role (how far below market I am: the flexibility and PTO that I get – too far below market, and the benefits don’t really make up for it).

    3. Jen*

      I also work in Boston. “Project management” is tricky. I manage a project management function and we have lower level project managers making 75k to senior enterprise project managers making $140k (no real bonus for either role).

      Does the role involve on-site travel or will it all be remote? are the projects internal (typically less $$ and less experience) or client facing?

      So…without knowing all of that, I recommend researching glassdoor.

  21. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

    I am struggling with the IT department at work. I was promoted internally into a operational-IT role. Technically I fall under operations, but the role is very technical and is a senior level position.

    Once I accepted the role, I found out that the only other internal applicants were from IT. They have personally been a nightmare to work with but I am trying to give them time (it’s only been 3 months).

    However, I have started to notice a larger pattern of IT being extremely difficult for me to work with. This was not true in my previous role at the company and these individual’s opinion of me seemingly changed over night. I can only guess that, in their minds, I took a newly created IT leadership role and I was not even in IT.

    Does anyone have any advice for working in a situation like this? I am trying to foster good relationships with our group and IT, but it is really, really difficult when every single meeting I have with almost any member of leadership in that group is met with outright aggressive defensiveness.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Hm, okay. So I see two problems: 1) These specific folks’ sour grapes, and how they’re expressing that. That’s a management issue to solve. When they do X and Y, it causes Z and prevents Q. In the future you need them to do A and B; can they commit to that moving forward? If not, what is their exit plan?

      2) How it impacts the rest of the department and your dynamic with them. If they’re badmouthing you and sabotaging you with passive-aggression, the rest of the team may not know how to partner with you. I wonder about doing a once-monthly meeting where you take lower-level people out to lunch (on the company’s dime) without the problematic managers, and ask them where they get stuck in their processes and what would make their workflow more fluid: new equipment, access to an industry journal with cutting-edge solutions, other departments responding more quickly, a pipeline to give feedback up the chain of command, whatever.

      You could use a different question, but something in that vein indicates A) you get that they’re the vertebrae of the department’s workings, and B) you genuinely want to understand how they see things and how you can help them. If you’re showing that you respect their work and their input in consistent, concrete ways, it’s a lot harder for the problematic managers to claim that you’re an outsider who doesn’t get it.

      1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        These would all be great ideas if I was in leadership and a manager. I do not manage anyone though. ^^

    2. Windchime*

      I may be too late in the day for you to see this.

      IT people are a different bunch. I say this as a person who has been in IT for over 15 years. I love being in IT; a lot of people in my department definitely march to the beat of a different drummer and I find that very cool. There are some people who seem normal (to me, but then maybe I’m not normal?) and some people who are very, very different and bordering on strange. But these are my people, my tribe.

      Your theory could be right, that they see you as an outsider who came in a took a job that someone thought was “theirs”. But I wonder if some of it could be an adjustment to working with IT in general; we are not always a “normal” bunch of people. Either way, it’s no excuse for them to be hostile or aggressive in their dealings with you. I hope everything smoothes out soon.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        What the poster above said, but let me break it down for you. IT people tend to be very frustrated by management types. IT people are data-driven and don’t have much interest in social niceties. They’re very much into the “nuts and bolts” of how their machines work, and have both legitimate and un-legitimate needs that relate to the work they do.

        Legitimate needs include the following:

        Being able to concentrate. IT people frequently have to deal with reading/writing complex computer code, figuring out how to configure things, and solving complex problems which have to do with how software interacts with other software or with other hardware. An IT person who can’t concentrate is likely to be both ineffective and pissed off. IT people have far more need than ordinary employees for headphones and/or doors which can be closed.

        Access to necessary information. A substantial part of the Internet is concerned with how to solve IT problems. An IT person needs either unrestricted Internet Access or a huge technical library. (Guess which is cheaper.)

        Specialized software and equipment. There a probably a dozen pieces of software/hardware which your IT department uses/needs/wants which you know nothing about. This is a huge area and I can’t provide details, but get used to listening when IT people discuss this stuff and make the time to learn something about what they need.

        Non-technical people who can solve ordinary computer problems on their own. A large IT department frequently deals with users who are particularly clueless. It may be that they are understaffed/overburdened by users.

        Management by people who actually understand what they do. Fifteen years later I still remember my enormous frustration with a manager who continually told me “No!” whenever he didn’t understand something – usually followed by a rant, usually followed by a complete lack of comprehension when I tried to explain.

        Any one of these problems are likely to make the IT dept cranky. Two or more of these issues will make the IT dept positively venomous. This is frequently compounded by the fact that IT people are frequently socially challenged or high-functioning autistic.

        IT people are far more likely to respond well to “What are your problems and what can I do to help” than “Is the virtual-teapot project finished yet?”

        All this being said, I also read your top-post carefully and I think you need to find something out. Are they being difficult because you have been put in charge of them, or were you put in charge of them because they have always been difficult?

  22. Mike C.*

    Quick question – Is anyone here familiar with working in the anti-money laundering department of a bank or credit union? What sort of experience is needed, education, that sort of thing.

    I ask because I read about some of the work bring done in this area and it sounds really interesting!

    1. Emmie*

      I’ve interviewed for those positions. It is interesting! They really want someone with experience interpreting the regulations impacting the industry. So, anything you can do to become more familiar with those would really help. Good luck!

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I worked in that area, and it really depends on your position. I was a business analyst in Fraud and I really only completed KPI reports and never got to work on any of the interesting problems. They were pretty hard set on not letting anyone without a PhD touch the cool stuff.

        1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          These were mostly PhD’s in math related fields. Mathematics and Statistics or Computer Learning.

      2. Ultraviolet*

        I’d really love to hear more about the jobs the PhD holders were doing–even if you could just suggest some job titles or other keywords for me to search on.

        1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          Fraud and Operations Analyst III, IV, V, etc. Senior Fraud Analyst.

    3. violetta*

      I do that work at an investment bank, I really love it! My background is not typical for the job (I.e. Not law or finance), I had a couple years experience in banking and got into compliance a year or two back when recruitment started ramping up industry wide.

      I work on the advisory side in anti money laundering, sanctions and embargoes, and anti terrorist financing. I’m pretty junior but I think I really found my niche. I’m on my phone so I’m not gonna type a novel but if you have specific questions I’d be happy to come back later and answer them as far as I can.

      1. Mike C.*

        That sounds pretty badass. Any war stories you’d feel comfortable sharing?

        I’m really just curious rather than looking for a career change – my background is in regulatory/quality/process improvement in aerospace so the combination of regulatory work and analysis sparked my interest. That, and you guys take down some really, really shady folks!

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          I have to do annual Know Your Client and Anti-Money Laundering training as I work in finance, but I never get to report dodgy characters. (Perhaps because they didn’t get that far, having been zapped by the Compliance department.)

          Nevertheless, it is drilled into us, that when in doubt, escalate.

        2. violetta*

          I don’t really have cool stories I could tell without giving any identifying details, haha. But yeah we see some shady stuff sometimes – 95 % of which I would say never comes to anything, i.e. We catch onto dodgy business before we on-board the client or we refuse a client request for whatever they wanna do that we don’t agree with.

          May I ask what article you read? I love reading about my line of work. The Panama papers coverage has also been pretty interesting…

          1. Mike C.*

            It was more some commentary on another forum about ethical jobs in the finance industry. One person chimed in about taking down slumlords and sex traffickers and illegal arms dealers and the like. I’m sure it was embellished a bit, but someone has to help enforce international embargoes and the position sounded really, really nifty.

  23. Karo*

    I finally stood up to the rude guy in my office and everyone has told me that they were really impressed with how I stood up for all of us without raising my voice and with turning everything back on him. Still riding that high from like 3 days ago!

    Also, I’m actively doing something to get myself out of this environment rather than just complaining about it to everyone who loves me. Wish me luck!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Good for you! (How did rude guy respond when you “turned everything back on him”?)

      1. Karo*

        He mostly just kept coming up with other things we were doing that annoyed him and I kept pointing out that he was guilty of the same thing but that we weren’t rude about it until he ran out of points. It was really so stupid and minor, but I’m such a passive person that it took a lot out of me :)

        (Also, I meant to say this in the original post – I asked a question about dealing with him in an open thread a few months ago but never had the guts to put anything into practice until this week, so thank you to everyone who helped!)

  24. Ads, ads, go away*

    Mobile reader note: has anyone else been experiencing intrusive mobile ads that don’t let you go back to AAM? I try to close it and it bounces me to another site with a spinning wheel and the back button is grayed out. I’m using safari if that helps. It’s been really annoying.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Yeah, and when I mentioned it to Alison she said there’s been a string of iOS issues lately. Here are the two solutions she suggested:

      Change Cookie Settings
      1. Click Settings on your iPhone
      2. Select Safari
      3. Scroll down and click Block Cookies
      4. Select Allow for Current Website Only

      Clear All Website Data
      1. Double-click your home button and close Safari
      2. Go to Settings
      3. Select Safari
      4. Scroll down and click Clear History and Website Data
      – Note: This will close all of your Safari browser windows

      1. Gene*

        There’s a link on the Reply screen to report this kind of thing to Alison to help her fix it.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yep, this has been a widespread thing that’s affecting iphone users the past few days. I think it should be stamped out today based on what I’ve been told, but meanwhile the instructions above have fixed it for other people.

      But yes, going forward, please use the ad report form (linked just above the comment form) — I’m trying to keep this stuff out of the comment section now that that exists. Thanks!

      1. Ads, ads, go away*

        Oops, thanks. For what it’s worth it was still happening earlier this morning but seems to have slowed down :)

      2. Belle diVedremo*

        Just reported it, too; it’s still happening on my iPhone as of 30 min ago.

    3. Fish Microwaer*

      Yeah, I get these all the time. They were so bad that I have to read AAM via Facebook. I still get the pop ups but not as frequently as if I view via the browser.

  25. T3k*

    So I applied to this one part time job in the area because their pay range is right at the average for my field and to the point I could work less than 20 hrs. at this place and still earn more than where I was before at full time. They want to schedule an interview, my first one in almost a year. My only problem is I was really hoping to find a place I was willing to stay at for at least 2 years due to 6 months at my first job (laid off) and a year at my last (quit). Decisions, decisions.

      1. T3k*

        Well, it’s not really an “ideal” job (I know, I know, no such thing as one) and only part time, so I’d definitely be making more than where I was, but not enough to be stable, so I’d either have to find another part time job if I got this one, or just settle for a very low income where I wouldn’t be able to afford the activities I like to do in my spare time. I’ve always been of the mindset that if the job paid well enough, the hours were nice (no crazy 50-60 hours on a regular basis), then I could deal with my hobbies just being hobbies as I’d have the cash to continue participating in them and not try to make them into a job. I feel like it’s going to take me 10 years before I find that balance though.

  26. Nobody*

    It’s been determined that my department has a morale problem, and management’s plan to fix it involved an all-day, off-campus meeting/team-building event. This included a catered breakfast and lunch, some team-based games (pictionary/charades types of games), and meetings to discuss issues in the department.

    The nature of our work is such that we have a minimum level of essential staffing 24/7, so those of us performing essential duties that day or night — about a third of the department — were not allowed to attend the event. All non-essential employees were invited (but not required), and everyone who was not scheduled to work the day of the event was invited to attend on overtime (and all of them did, because who wouldn’t want time-and-a-half for a day of being wined and dined by management?). Meanwhile, the rest of us were stuck working short-handed and without most of our regular support staff. One of the managers even called us in the middle of the day to ask us to cover a meeting for him.

    Is it just me, or was it kind of crappy for management to hold an ostensibly morale-boosting, team-building event that completely excluded a third of the team? Obviously, there’s nothing they could do about needing minimum essential staffing, but they could have at least asked if we had any input about the issues in the department. And since they were buying breakfast and lunch for everyone else, it would have been nice if they had done the same for those of us doing essential duties. I’m not even a fan of team-building exercises, but I can’t help feeling a bit devalued.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I got in trouble once for what I said about how I perceived my place on the team. Essentially I said that I saw myself doing more of the behind-the-scenes and support-type work and I used an example of how every single member of the team got called out individually for the work we did on the team building exercise except for me.

      Yeah. Moral not improved.

    3. super anon*

      That’s really crappy. If morale is already low, I can see those who didn’t get to participate and had stay in the office (and thus not get time & a half pay, or even breakfast) using this as their final straw to start looking elsewhere. I know I would for sure. Even if it wasn’t an intentional slight, it still would sting quite a bit.

    4. Rat Racer*

      Crappy on multiple fronts: a) the exclusion factor and b) thinking that a one-time offsite that includes pictionary and free food will solve endemic problems in the workplace

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Although, it’s really good for pointing out endemic problems in the workplace.

    5. Jennifer*

      These days that figures, I think.

      A friend of mine applied at Eat24 (that place that got publically called out by Talia Jane) and they wanted her to suggest in the job process how they could do morale building activities while a third of the staff was always manning the phones and unable to do anything.

      I think this kind of thing is a pacifier. They can’t or won’t actually provide you with enough staff under ANY circumstances to make you happier, so…this is what two thirds of you get.

      I just finished doing a stint on our company’s staff picnic, and we have a similar issue in that some people just plain can’t do their jobs. We can get free food to people who can’t leave via delivery, and we started putting on a night event for any night time employees who can leave their jobs, but unfortunately there’s only so much we can do for people who literally can’t leave work.

      1. Jennifer*

        Er…”I just finished doing a stint volunteering on planning our company’s staff picnic,” and “some people just plain can’t LEAVE their jobs.”

      2. MT*

        I’ve never thought about it from the event planner’s point of view. That must be such a frustrating dynamic!

        We have twice-yearly “staff appreciation” events that are run by, you guessed it, the staff. Dining staff caters, cleaning staff cleans, facilities staff sets up and breaks down, A/V staff mans the microphones and music, etc. We internally call them “admin appreciation” events because they really only apply to the white-collar staff.

        In terms of doing something “fair,” I’d say scrap the event altogether and close the place for an all-staff-day-off. *That’s* an appreciation event I can get behind!

    6. Ad Astra*

      Ooh, wow, this was ill advised. If your business is truly such that it’s impossible to get everybody off work at one time, the solution is to do something different, not leave people out. For instance, they could have done the same thing on two or three different dates, so everyone would be able to attend one of the dates. And knowing some people made time and a half while others didn’t? Yikes!

      I’d imagine anyone who didn’t get to go, as well as a good chunk of the people who made regular pay instead of extra, are feeling a real dip in their morale. And I bet the more conscientious overtimers feel a bit weird, too.

      1. catsAreCool*

        One something different is to bring in food more often for employees. People tend to appreciate that.

    7. Ada Lovelace*

      Definitely crappy. My job is planning something similar. They scheduled a family bby and fun day on the weekend for all FT employees in a park. They specifically mention building rapport with other departments and employees but in the process, they excluded all PT employees (about 1/3 of us), you can’t come alone (excludes childless employees,) only immediate family, and can only bring two people to the bbq (excludes larger families). Yea I definitely feel appreciated.

        2. Ada Lovelace*

          Yup. Thanks job. Way to raise morale. My coworker wanted to bring her grandkids, since her daughter is an adult and they told her only the daughter can go, without the grandkids. I am curious to hear how it will go.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Nice. I am sure employees who have no immediate family left feel very grateful for this stipulation.
        But maybe I could make it work for me. “I can’t come alone, yet I don’t have immediate family. So I guess I will be sitting this one out.” I am guessing that we have a few other regular commenters in the same boat as me.

        What a wonderful company. not.

  27. always and forever anonymous*

    I am SO angry about the way my department is handling summer hours and vacation time. Summer is our busy season, so we’ve never been able to have summer hours like the rest of the company does. Summer is blacked out for vacation time, too. It sucks, but my department is good about approving vacation policy any other time of the year.

    Except I just found out via an email from our dept VP that summer hours and vacation time are approved for people with families. Because apparently my department VP understands that it’s hard to have a spouse or children and not go on vacation in the summer. And apparently a few people complained that they could never take summer vacations with their kids even though they KNEW going into the job that summers were a no-go for vacations.

    I’m absolutely livid because it implies that as a single person, I’m not worth summer hours or vacation because it’s assumed that without a partner or kids, I have nothing going on in my life. I have siblings and parents, too. I have friends I go on vacation with. I’d also like vacation days to chill out during our busy period. Having an email be sent out saying “exceptions will be made for those with families” makes me want to scream and quit on the spot.

    I’m all for employers being family friendly, but not when being “family friendly” means punishing those without families.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That is absolute, complete, and utter bullshit. Point out that you have a family too, because, well, you DO. And people without families of relatives often have friend-based families or furry families. Ugh.

      2. always and forever anonymous*

        I always get so angry that people assume that if you’re single, you don’t have any family. What about my siblings and parents and cousins who I hang out with? They’re still family! And what about friends and found families of non-relatives. It’s sooooo irritating.

        1. Chaordic One*

          One more thing, if you’re single and want to have a family someday, your employer is pretty much making that impossible (or at least very unlikely) when they don’t leave you any time for outside interests and relationships.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I agree completely, I hate that line of thinking, I had such an argument with my old supervisor when they said they were more entitled to Christmas off because they had young children.

      1. always and forever anonymous*

        I made the mistake earlier in my career of always offering to go to conferences or travel in place of my coworkers who said they couldn’t go because they had kids. I stupidly assumed they’d make it up to me if there came a time when I couldn’t go, but after two times where travel conflicted with plans and those coworkers used the “I have kids, I need to be home” excuse, I stopped offering to go to conferences or travel in their place.

        I’ll gladly reschedule a meeting to a different date or time if it conflicts with a coworker who has to pick kids up from daycare or whatever, but I’m really tired of seeing some of them (not all, obviously) act like they deserve special treatment because they reproduced.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I agree that is a problem and I would be upset to.
      My company also has a no summer vacation policy; I would be upset if I found out Bob in Sales got to take a week because that’s the only time he and family can go to Disneyworld.

      1. always and forever anonymous*

        Exactly. Not being able to take vacation in the summer sucks but I knew that going into the job, and it’s really not fair to let one person take a vacation for unimportant reasons, but not someone else.

      1. always and forever anonymous*

        He said there’s nothing he can do. But my boss also benefits from this policy, so he’s not really going out of his way to say it’s unfair.

    5. Isben Takes Tea*

      It’s the same thinking that leads to people with families/spouses should be paid more because “they have a family to support.” All perks, rewards, and compensations should be based on the role and work performance, period.

      This is garbage.

      1. always and forever anonymous*

        Right! I know of at least one friend who’s employer gave higher raises or bonuses to families because they have someone to support not only is it totally unfair, but it’s such an archaic mindset.

      1. R Adkins*

        Nevermind — I just realized that this is a local protection for us and not national. Darn.

    7. T3k*

      Wow, this would piss me off so much. I wonder if this is something that can be brought up to HR (assuming you have one)? At the very least, I’d be questioning if I’d want to remain somewhere that has double standards like this.

      1. always and forever anonymous*

        Our HR is really unhelpful. They don’t really do anything with complaints except go back and tell the manager who complained about them, so I’m wary about going to HR. I’ve been looking for another job lately anyway, so hopefully I won’t have to deal with this much longer.

        1. Dawn*

          If you’re looking to get out anyway you could always magically construct a crisis in your family that ended up with you having to adopt your sibling’s kid(s) and whoopsies, now you have a family and need to get that time off.

          Only half kidding.

    8. Rebecca in Dallas*

      “People with families.” So that’s everyone, right?

      I’d be so pissed off. I’m married and childless (by choice, not that it’s my employer’s business). I wonder if my family counts?

      1. Birdibee*

        Im childless by choice also, but what if someone couldn’t have kids? Punish them for not being able to procreate? This opens a whole can of worms.

    9. Brooke*

      “exceptions will be made for those with families”

      OHHHHHH HEELLLZZZZZZ NOOOOOOOO.

    10. The Rat-Catcher*

      Rude!!! Your VP’s selective sympathy here for those with “families” (which as others have rightly pointed out is being VERY narrowly defined) is maddening.

    11. AFT123*

      As a married pregnant person, that makes my blood boil too. I hope if you decide to push against this that some of the people benefiting will fight on your behalf too!!

    12. AF*

      You are likely not the only person who feels this way. Talk to your coworkers and push back hard! This is such crap and is guaranteed to destroy a lot of morale, and have the unintended consequence on the people with families that others will resent them. Good luck and please keep us posted!

    13. Overeducated*

      That’s awful!

      I think in some ways people who are caregivers really can have trouble with some things that single employees don’t in the same way (e.g. staying late on short notice – it sucks for everyone, but leaving a kid at day care until you’re done or elderly mom alone after the nurse goes home is just NOT an option). Keeping resentment from arising from those legitimate issues and being fair is tough enough as it is. Mixing up “nice to haves” like vacation just increases the divide and makes people less understanding of each others’ needs.

      1. Ife*

        This, exactly. Sometimes commitments outside of work (most commonly, young kids) makes it legitimate for someone to say “nope, can’t” to things like staying late. Vacation during your preferred time frame doesn’t fall into that category, especially when people knew ahead of time that was the deal. It sucks that your company has decided otherwise.

    14. Amy M in HR*

      Wow..just…wow. This is an incredibly unfair and unjust policy, all of us have families in one sense or another. I happen to be married with children, and would never assume that my workplace should accommodate my vacation schedules just because I had kids.
      You say it is your department handling this “policy”, and that you do not want to go to HR for fear of being ratted out to your boss – what about approaching your boss’ boss? (And shame on your HR person if that is how they treat complaints!)

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Then this company should never hire people without families because an unjust workload is being foisted on single people by this very weird policy. They should only hire people with families so that everyone can share the workload equally./snark.

      I guess you could casually mention that employee retention and attracting a variety of new employees will become problems for them.
      You could mention that of the off summer vacation slots you feel that single people should have first pick and family people can have what is left over. Mention how you would like two weeks over Christmas and New Years. If you have the time in maybe you could ask for a week or so around Thanksgiving.
      Ask if there will be limits to how many family people can be on vacation at a given time.
      What about if a single person gets sick/injured and cannot report for work? Will a family person be required to give up their summer vacation?
      What about bereavement time? If there are too many family people out at a given time, will single people have to give up their bereavement time, also?

      Looks like a wall of words, right? This is how you can wear down a bad plan by asking too many but-what-if questions.

  28. ThursdaysWoman*

    Two things thinking about today.

    1) I have a part-time job at a university, and I have applied for every full-time job I am qualified for there for the past nine months. I have gotten one interview, which was a courtesy – a friend works there. (I know that it was a courtesy because as I was waiting, I heard one of the interviewers outside say, “This is the one we don’t know anything about right?” and another answer, “Yeah, X asked us to talk to her.” GAH.) Anyway, I’ve looked over who they hired for these positions and they are all people who have degrees from the university. Even though I have equivalent degrees from elsewhere, I’m thinking I’m wasting my time. What do you think?

    2) There’s an opening at a friend’s firm that I would like to apply for; but I applied for this same position last year and wasn’t interviewed. The friend did e-mail HR for me, but since it wasn’t her division had no real connection to it. I’m not sure if I should tell her I’m applying again. (Maybe I shouldn’t apply at all.) More thoughts or advice?

    I’m heading in to a year of job hunting, six months seriously. I’m employed so it’s not as bad as it could be – still have a roof over my head! – but I’m starting to really feel the despair. Especially since my student loans just came due…used up my year of deferment. This is terrible.

    1. T3k*

      Depending on your salary, most student loans repayment allow several different options to pay. I set mine to income driven for a time (basically you pay little at the beginning and it raises over time, the idea being you’ll earn more later in your career). However, if you really can’t make the min. payment, mine had an option for forbearance that I was approved for because I was unexpectedly laid off from my first job, and it lasts a year.

      1. ThursdaysWoman*

        I’d actually attempted to do that when I graduated because I knew my wife was going to be laid off, but they based the determination on our tax return and said we had to pay. What did you do to get them to acknowledge the loss of your job?

        1. T3k*

          It was fairly easy for me. I used their site, chose something like “need to change payment options” and there was an option to say “lost job” or something like that. I think there was a few other things to put in, like my total income (which being laid off and single, was 0). Of course you still have to pay the min. until you get approved for it, but that only took a few weeks.

    2. Jennifer*

      I don’t think a degree from that university is the deciding factor. I know plenty of people who didn’t attend the university they work at that can get jobs. However, universities are incredibly picky as hell and they literally want you to have every single requirement on the job listing, so it’s really, really hard to get in any more.

      1. ThursdaysWoman*

        This is going to sound arrogant – but I really do think I met every requirement for most of the jobs I applied for. I’ve checked…they really did hire only people who graduate from the university for every job I’d submitted an app for. Maybe there’s a hidden requirement they aren’t mentioning. :/

        1. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

          Or there are so many qualified applicants that they can chose which over qualifications are most desirable. University positions tend to be very desirable, so are very competitive.

          1. ThursdaysWoman*

            Is one of those qualifications “graduated from the university”? This kind of practice is very common; I’m not sure why people won’t acknowledge that part.

    3. Laura*

      I work at a university. I can assure you, nobody cares if you attended this school or not. I would suggest that you NOT apply to every job you’re qualified for unless you truly meet every specification.

      1. Lia*

        The big exceptions to this at many universities are alumni and development departments. The rationale is often “alumni will be more likley to become involved/ give money” if solicited by alumni.

        1. Hey Anonny Nonny*

          I’m sorry to say, I worked at a university in both Alumni/Career Services and Development, and I can attest to this. It really didn’t matter what the qualifications were, an alum would most definitely have a very big advantage, in all roles, not just the fundraisers.

          However, sometimes I thought it had as much to do with those oh-so-important “graduates with employment” statistics, truth to tell.

          1. Laura*

            Depends on the school, too. I work at a very large university with so many alumni, it doesn’t mean anything special to the school anymore (though I’m sure alumni relations is an exception).

      2. ThursdaysWoman*

        I realize that you should not apply to very job unless qualified. I actually do. Unless the issue is that I’ve got a doctorate and not a master’s in the required field.

        I work at a university, too, part time; I’ve been working in university settings for seven years now. The issue is that I am the ONLY ONE in my department who did not attend this university. It really does seem to matter somehow.

    4. Formerly HigherEd Frustration*

      I literally just started a position a week ago in a university. I tried for 18 months before I got this position. So, I just want to let you know that you are not alone and it is super hard. The things that helped me were studying EVERYTHING on AAM to prepare myself for the interview and write a great cover letter and resume. The other thing was basically stalking the university for anything that might help, like interview guides, etc. I found this stuff after looking through their website alot and it really did help me understand their process and what they were looking for. Honestly, I think its a crap shoot. They are really picky and have certain requirements. I even got emails/phone calls from 2 different hiring managers telling me they loved me but they went with someone else bc they had a grad degree or they thought i should look for a job in a bigger dept. I know its super stressful, annoying, depressing, etc. but if you keep trying, even when you’re thinking of giving up, you’ll get an interview with a search committee that you click with and it will FINALLY happen! GOOD LUCK!

      1. ThursdaysWoman*

        Thanks. I guess I should keep trying but it’s honestly extremely depressing and I feel like I’m pretty worthless now. I’ve done all the prep, but it’s getting harder and harder to try because there’s so little encouragement or hope.

    5. Frustrated Optimist*

      Just wanted to share that I, too, am approaching the one-year mark of job-searching. For some reason, that milestone is very discouraging and depressing, even though probably none of the hiring managers realize it’s been that long for you. Frankly, I remember feeling the same way at the one-year mark in my previous job search, which was 18+ years ago. GAH is right. But the feeling will pass and you’ll be able to keep plugging away at the applications.

      1. ThursdaysWoman*

        Thanks. I’m sorry it’s been so long for you, too, and I hope that things get better soon.

    6. BRR*

      A couple of thoughts:
      -Are you applying to too many jobs at the university?
      -How long have were you in your current position before you started applying to other jobs?
      -There are some positions where they value “knowledge about the institution.”
      -I have noticed from working at a university that there seems to be a fair number of people who have degreed from there. I know they’re not specially looking to hire alumni but it might give them a leg up.
      -If the friends haven’t worked with you, their opinions are likely not really going to count for anything. That being said I would mention it to your friend at the firm and just see what she thinks. Give her an easy out though since she’s done it before.

      1. ThursdaysWoman*

        Alison said in a column that it’s fine to apply for many jobs as long as you fit the position. So I should be fine. I have been in my current position for a year, but it builds on six previous years of experience. I am very well acquainted with the institution and have even done the certification to be campus guide.

    7. ginger ale for all*

      I work at a university and when we open a job in our department for student assistants, we get over a hundred applicants per day from what one person told me. I heard that entry level jobs het a similar amount. You are competing against batch after batch of recent grads who need jobs.

      1. ThursdaysWoman*

        I’m not a student assistant or entry level….I’ve got six years of job experience plus a terminal degree. But I guess I am competing against those recent grads anyway.

  29. Clouds in My Coffee*

    Not a question but a small venting session: A coworker who drives me batty and is one of the least efficient people I’ve ever worked with (which likely has something to do with hardly ever being in the office) has used the word “prioritizing” in three different email responses to me this week. “This was late because we were PRIORITIZING…” “That got held up because we were PRIORITIZING…” “Sorry, can’t get that to you because we’re PRIORITIZING…”

    We’re all prioritizing! All the time! Stop mentioning it in every email!

    1. A Definite Beta Guy*

      “Prioritizing” is a buzz-word to me now. Our department has round-robin-type meetings, the kind mentioned earlier this week. We have roughly 200+ tracked projects, so we created a “priorities” tracker to minimize conversation.
      Then that wasn’t working, so we started talking about “prioritizing the priorities.”
      That’s not working either, so we’re talking about having a pre-meeting for our weekly meeting so we can prioritize the prioritization of the priorities.
      I am not making this up.

      2. Clouds in My Coffee*

        Yiiiiikes. That would make me crazy. One of the things that bothers me so much about her using it is that it doesn’t matter if we help her prioritize things (when she asks us to); she still can’t get things done efficiently or on time on a consistent basis.

      4. MoinMoin*

        lol. I read prioritizing as trying to say, “Sorry this is late, it’s just that I don’t care about it.”

        2. Snazzy Hat*

          We needed to figure out which project was the least important, and after writing each project down on colored construction paper and shuffling them around, we eventually put them up on the board in a hierarchy configuration and came to the conclusion that yours was by far the least important. Then we had coffee and pastries to make sure we could get through the important projects.

          O_o

        3. MT*

          It really is just saying “you’re not a high priority.”

          Which, sure, we’ve all been in that boat, but you don’t come out and *say* it. Especially not in every response!

      5. Aurion*

        I actually laughed out loud reading this. I’m not trying to make fun of your misery, I swear, but I can’t fathom anyone saying “prioritize the prioritization of the priorities” with a straight face.

        My deepest sympathies.

      6. mazzy*

        Sad but true. I’ve had the prioritizing the priorities among the priorities thing before. The root cause was the same. Not enough people, the stuff absolutely had to all get done at once, and in a good economy would be viewed as a staffing issue, not a priority issue.

        1. Chaordic One*

          And then one the branch offices calls (say the one in Australia) and they need the in-process report you’ve been working on and that wasn’t due for another week, early for some pathetically obtuse reason and out go your pre-established priorities.

          1. Mazzy*

            Or in my case, I’d find out a month later that one of my coworkers was calling IT behind my back to get totally non urgent work done, instantly knocking my priorities down to zero….

    2. Jennifer*

      Yesterday I wanted to have a seizure every time a guy said “evangelizing.”

      Nobody likes evangelists, dude. Nobody.

    3. Elle*

      Ha! Stuff like that is like salt in the wound when they are already annoying the crap out of you!

    4. Lizabeth*

      My word was “verbiage” being used wrong by acct rep constantly. You have my sympathy.

  30. I just want to scream*

    I’ve had such a crap week this week, work has been so rough since before Easter and not showing any signs of improving, some edited “highlights” included

    * Our tech team arguing that a 24 hour delay on updating our real time reporting system is acceptable.
    * Human error resulting in a $2,35 Million reporting difference in sales figures we reported to the board (not related to the above)
    * My Director expecting a six month project to be planed, implemented and delivered in 4 days
    * Another tech team point blank refusing to do their job resulting the me getting chewed out by the board
    * being shown nothing but contempt from the areas of business we support
    * Yet another tech team messing up our business critical processes with weak ass poorly implemented changes made without any prior notification
    * External developers providing untested junk code released into production with no testing or change control (not related to point above)
    * The only person on my team keeping me anywhere near sane is talking to their old employer about going back to them

    And I’m sure there is more that I can’t think of right now.

    My plans for this weekend had involved seeing just how much Vodka I could consume intravenously, but I have to work Saturday and I can see it spilling into Sunday as well.

      1. I just want to scream*

        Yeah I think I need too, the place is far to dysfunctional.

        The problem is the job is teaching me some good skills and I can’t see being able to move to another employer in a similar role for another six to twelve months at least.

    2. MT*

      As a member of a tech team, your tech teams suck. Our job is to make your jobs easier, and that “special snowflake I work with technology so I don’t have to be accountable to people” attitude is so grating.

      Virtually-clinking my vodka glass to yours. Hopefully you find a place with people who take pride in their work.

      1. I just want to scream*

        Thanks A new job isn’t really on the cards anytime soon unfortunately.

        I’m in a tech team myself, but I have to deal directly with the business so it ends up that I’m accountable to them but no one seems to be held accountable for the services my team is dependant on to deliver to the business.

    3. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      You must work where I do. Currently we are working down the the wire for the last two weeks on multiple papers that have had SINCE CHRISTMAS to be developed and socialized. WTF people. Oh, and throw in a strike action for next week THE DAY BEFORE it is all due and senior managers have to go cover workload and its been AWESOME.

      Can recommend whisky either neat or with an ice cube. One glass and I am ready to hit the hay and its maybe 8 pm. Not even yoga was solving the stress issues this week…

      Why do people do this? Alternatively, how can I become more incompetent/care less and make more money?

      1. I just want to scream*

        Nothing like leaving things to the last minute to cause a panic. Who knows why do people do these things? I hope you hit your deadline.

        Whiskey is good, and there are only two things you should ever add to it:
        1 – Ice
        2 – More whiskey

  31. Terra*

    Does anyone have advice on wording to withdraw from a position? Normally I just go with a generic “Thank you for your time but upon consideration it appears this position would not currently be a good fit for me. I’ve enjoyed speaking with you and wish you luck in filling the position” but twice recently I’ve gotten push back with people either not understanding that this means I’m not interested in the job or insisting that I can’t know that the position isn’t a good fit yet and should attend another interview before making a decision. It’s not the worst problem to have but it’s starting to get on my nerves. Advice?

    1. LisaLee*

      I go with, “I will have to withdraw from consideration because I have taken my job search in a different direction. Thank you for your time.” I think you’ve really got to have the word “withdraw” in there, because some people are dense.

    2. Glasskey*

      Honestly, I don’t see anything wrong with your language here and easily see that it means you’re taking yourself out of the line-up. If I got a follow-up question from someone saying I should come in for another interview before deciding to withdraw I would probably just ignore it and not feel the need to respond further. Imagine if the tables were turned-I think many organizations who decide not to hire a candidate will use the softer approach in communication as you have done and if a candidate comes back and says, “huh? What do you mean?” or “You can’t really tell I’m a bad fit until you interview me some more!” that would be seen as a major no-no.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, unless one of the responses asked “do you mind if I ask why you felt it wasn’t a good fit?” and made it clear it was because they wanted to know what the employer might be doing to turn people off, I would just ignore their response. Any hiring manager/recruiter who tries to tell you you can’t possibly know your own mind is a pretty big red flag.

      2. Overeducated*

        You might just have to reiterate that you are not interested. A few weeks ago I told a search committee I had accepted another offer, thinking that was clear, and they actually emailed back an hour later asking if I wanted the job. They were just making sure, I guess.

    3. Jennifer*

      You could just say that your circumstances have changed or something vague like that. I don’t think pointing out the fit sounds terribly great, to be honest.

      1. Terra*

        I tend to use “fit” as a generic “its not you, its me” type phrase for anything from the salary being way too low to the fact that I found out in a phone interview that the office I’d be working in was actually three hours further away than the main office but I could change it if it seems too buzzwordy.

    4. Pwyll*

      I’m not sure that you even really need to offer a reason.

      “Dear Bob, I am writing to withdraw my application for x. Thank you so much for your time and consideration and best of luck in filling your position.”

      1. BRR*

        This is perfectly fine in my opinion. As part of interviewing being a two-way street, you get to reject employers.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The few times I have done this (before computers) I went through an in person version of The Begging. Honestly, I think that it’s just their shock talking, they are genuinely surprised and want to make sure they understood correctly.
      It could be that you are a great candidate and they want to understand what they did wrong. Or it could be that you are the x refusal this week and they wonder what is up.

  32. LisaLee*

    Museum/archive/conservation people: Are there any conferences that would be useful for a person who isn’t currently employed in the field but would like to be to attend? I really would love to get a job in museum or archive work, but I’ve been finding the competition pretty fierce (I have no master’s degree, but I do have some experience) and I have some money I could put towards a conference. The ones I’ve looked at seem pretty oriented towards people already doing the work and I’m not sure it would actually give me a boost to attend though.

    1. Liz W.*

      There are freelancers in the archive/conservation fields: I would go anyway if the topics are interesting enough.

      1. LisaLee*

        My issue is that if there isn’t going to be a concrete get-a-job benefit from a conference, I’d rather stick the money in my “grad school someday” fund. A lot of the topics look really interesting, I just don’t know if I can justify it as a cool thing to do.

    2. BRR*

      I’m not in the field but from the limited knowledge I have I would say it’s not going to give you a boost. Adding “attended conference” isn’t going to make you stand out when applying to jobs in my opinion. Unless you can easily swing it financially, I wouldn’t go. If you do go, think of it as attending a convention on an interest and don’t think of it as affecting your job prospects.

      I also know this field has really intense competition for jobs and a graduate degree isn’t going to really separate you from the herd either. I know not having a masters might disqualify you from some positions though. In an ideal world I would recommend trying to get a job first, then get your masters.

      1. BRR*

        So I didn’t mean for that to be so depressing. I have a masters and tons of student loan debt originally wanting to go into arts administration and I just don’t want others to waste their time or money.

    3. ElCee*

      Yeah, I don’t work in that field but 85% of my friends do. It’s a small world with a lot of importance on networking, but honestly even then it’s tight. I would say that without a master’s or prior experience at a museum it will be tough–I would focus on grad school not only for that but for the networking opportunities. But you can network for free too–volunteering at a historic site regularly and even just visiting a museum and chatting with the staff are great ways to do this. People always remember visitors who ask interesting, intelligent questions ;)

    4. Overeducated*

      A regional museum conference would be more affordable than a national one, and they are pretty good for networking. If you can find one where you wouldn’t have to pay for a hotel, it might be nice to go. Some associations also have “early career” or “emerging professional” (gag) interest groups, and have things like advice discussions and resume critiques at the conferences. Those did not actually get me a job directly but they did help me learn more about career trajectories and how to present myself.

    5. An Archivist*

      Oftentimes there are workshops attached to archives conferences–some of those might be interesting or useful. Particularly at state/regional conferences there are more basic “intro to” workshops that would actually be a decent intro to the field. They wouldn’t help you get a professional position but might help with a paraprofessional or temporary job.

    6. Lone Arranger*

      Honestly, you’re probably better off starting in a volunteer position at a library/museum- that’s how I got in to the field. These institutions are almost always happy to take on volunteers with little or no experience. For me the biggest benefit of volunteering for a large public library system (aside from the archival experience I was getting) was getting first dibs on entry level job openings and asked if I was interested in applying before they made them public.

    7. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      This topic makes me twitch because the best answer is volunteering, but . . .. The culture resources field (museums and archives are the most guilty) depends on volunteers to fill in the gaps instead of creating entry-level positions. By volunteering, one says this model is okay. Then the market is even more tight for those journey-level positions because institutions use volunteers to fill gaps team of creating positions. And the cycle begins again. I don’t completely blame all institutions because many have to make do with less. And many are tied to government.

      Are you hoping to go into conservation or more broad museum/archive settings (like being a collections manager who does basic repairs)? Either way, I think it’s best to have a focus. Not personally, because I’m a big picture person and think we shouldn’t silo ourselves. Instead, those who hire tend to think one with a wide range of experiences doesn’t know what they want and gets bored easily. Sadly this approach encourages one to get pigeon holed.

      If you do the grad school route, I recommend getting an assistanceship that gets you more experience. If you can’t do this, then try to get 20 hours of experience a week. This is the typical amount of hours students with assistanceships work. This keeps you from getting behind your peers.

  33. Noisehater*

    My work nemesis has a standing desk and it’s driving me a bit crazy watching him jig about and do his stretches at it out of the corner of my eye. Also it has a tiny mouse-moving area and he has two large widescreen monitors i.e. quite a lot of screen space to move a mouse across, so he picks the mouse up repeatedly and drops it back down against the desk with a resonant CLUNK against the hollow plastic desk-shell. No headphones I have yet found will block out this frequency.

    (Just venting really, though any suggestions for retaining my last scraps of sanity will be read with interest.)

    In cheerier, less neurotic news, it’s a long weekend here in the UK, so I hope AAM’s UK readers have a good one.

    3. anonymouse*

      I have a similar noise problem with a coworker who has one of those multi-band bracelets with like 3 dozen charms (if that’s what they’re called) on it and it clunks and scraps against the desk every ten minutes and it’s driving me crazy. Headphones also do not block it out and the sound is like nails on a chalkboard to me.

    4. Rex*

      Sounds like you’re at BEC levels with this guy. Can you face away from him? Wear headphones?

    5. Kristinemc*

      Maybe suggest a thumb track ball mouse – they take a little getting used to, but don’t require you to move the mouse around at all!

      1. Red*

        Yep — I have three monitors and not a lot of mousing surface, and a trackball made everything WAY easier on me.

      2. Hello Felicia*

        And now I have a trackball mouse on the way from Amazon. Thanks for the tip!

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I love mine. I was getting wrist pain and now that is a non-issue. It’s lasted through several computers now, too. So it feels like I am getting my money out of it.

      1. Creag an Tuire*

        Although evidently it’s just the “May Bank Holiday” in the UK — “Remembrance Day” isn’t until November.

        1. Dot Warner*

          Memorial Day is slightly different than Veterans’ Day. Memorial Day is for soldiers who were killed in war but Veterans’ Day is for all veterans, whether still living or deceased from any cause. Quite a few people in the US mix this up as well.

          This has been Dot’s Pedantry Corner. Now back to regularly scheduled programming. :)

    7. Erin*

      He can change his mouse speed so the mouse moves faster on the screen in comparison to how far he moves it on the pad. IT may have to install a program or give him admin settings to do it. He can also get a mouse pad to soften the noise. Can you rearrange your desk so it’s no longer in the corner of your eye.

      1. Noisehater*

        Thanks everyone!

        I have now attached a calming picture of a kitten to the top of my monitor to block the view. If I feel brave I might ask if he could use a mousemat for noise reasons. If I feel less brave and more passive-aggressive, he has mentioned wrist problems, so perhaps I should try the trackball line…

        (It’ll be slightly suspicious if I sing their virtues too much as I don’t use one, though I can truthfully say I used to and quite liked it but gave it up as it was wireless and ate batteries at an expensive rate.)

        And a good long weekend to anyone who has one, regardless of where! Commiserations to those of you who don’t…

        1. Not So NewReader*

          “Oh, Noisy, my friend just mention her wrist hurt and she thought it was her mouse. So she bought a trackball mouse and she loves it. I have not tried one, but she seemed very happy with hers.”

    8. Snork Maiden*

      Declaim loudly and at length on the health benefits of using a trackball?

      (I have one, with a dual monitor setup. I love it. No sore wrist anymore.)

    9. Chaordic One*

      I have already complained on this board about one of my former co-workers, but I can’t resist playing “Topper” from Dilbert and talking about her again. After injuring her back in a hiking accident our employer gave this co-worker a standing desk as an accommodation for her back pain. (Now that I think about it, I wonder if maybe she was also on some very good pain meds.)

      The problem was that a big part of her work involved her conducting business with a speaker phone. With her standing desk she stood above the low cubicle walls and as she hollered into her speaker phone (she did not have an indoor voice) her voice carried throughout the entire open office. She believed that in order to establish personal relationships with clients she needed to share all the intimate details of her life with them. It seemed to work with the clients (go figure), but the entire office heard way too much of her personal information.

      I still cringe remembering the time she returned from maternity leave and told a client about her difficult labor with her first-born. It ended with her telling the client, “After the baby was finally born… my uterus fell out, and the last thing I remember was the doctor said, ‘Oh, shit!’and then I went under.”

      It was like an episode of “Call the Midwife,” only worse.

    10. Troutwaxer*

      You can probably order him a custom mouse pad for almost nothing. Put a picture on the mousepad you’re sure he’ll like and make sure it’s a big one.

  34. Audiophile*

    I’m having that kind of day today. My project for the day has fallen apart, through no real fault of my own. And I can’t get it back on track because I don’t have all the things I need to get it done.

    I’m ready for the day to be over already.

    I’ll move onto the next project.

    Anyone have plans for Memorial Day weekend? I’m debating going to event hosted by the meetup group I’m in.

    1. Hlyssande*

      I don’t have any concrete plans aside from cuddling with my cat and playing too many video games. And maybe laundry.

      Even if the company didn’t take Monday as an official holiday, we’d be out of the office because the office complex is essentially shut down and the AC will be off…

      1. Audiophile*

        I’m planning to buy my ticket for the event shortly.

        My office is closed Monday and an email was sent to everyone that the AC would be shut off from Sunday afternoon until Tuesday morning. (I’m assuming this is to keep some of the workaholic execs home for the holiday weekend.)

  35. MayravB*

    Researchers, I have a question for you:
    I’m trying to get a job as a research assistant at hospitals/research institutes. I’ve been applying in the standard way (online application system) where they don’t say specifically which lab/PI I’m applying to work with, just the division. My friend insists that the best thing to do is call and find out who the PI is, and then email them and ask to talk about the job, or better yet, show up at their office to show how interested I am in their research.

    This sounds like terrible advice to me–I think I’d just wind up annoying everyone. But when I was in university, that WAS how to get a position. Email, show up, chat, you’re hired. What do you think?

    1. the_scientist*

      I had the same experience in undergrad- I got my jobs by reaching out to PIs I was interested in working with, and they would tell me whether they had space/funding for summer students/co-ops/research assistants.

      I work in a hospital network, but not really in a research setting anymore so I don’t have any experience applying to “real” lab jobs. But my gut instinct is that your friend is wrong, and you are correct. Hiring a full-time staff RA is different than hiring a student- the funding sources might be different, there are benefits/union things to deal with, etc. so I think you’re correct that you’ll probably just annoy people and not actually get anywhere.

      That being said, you may be able to leverage your network here- do you know people working at this hospital? Have their PIs posted jobs? Can people in your network advocate for you? PIs really love competent RAs who need minimal training, so someone who can vouch for your skill with a particular protocol or piece of equipment can be invaluable.

      1. MayravB*

        Thanks for replying! I thought it sounded wrong, but he was SO adamant about it, so I thought I’d better double-check. Good tip about networking–I’m still working on being comfortable with having and using mine! But I should suck it up and ask if anyone knows anyone. Unfortunately, it seems like there are about 12 jobs for RAs in my field, in a major city with three universities, so competition is sure to be fierce.

        1. the_scientist*

          Yikes! Good luck….can I ask what field? I worked in cell bio and immunology labs and I can tell you in that field that your reputation is invaluable. Especially if you’re applying to the university you attended. I was offered interviews in very prestigious labs based on my reputation/word of mouth alone. Fields can be so small that people often move between labs, so longtime lab techs/RAs/managers get to a point where they know EVERYONE, and all the gossip- if you have a network that can help you, use it!

          1. MayravB*

            I’m looking at psychiatric research labs, but my previous lab experience is more on the end of cognitive psychology. Network it is!

    3. AF*

      I work in clinical research (behavioral health interventions/drugs/devices), and we have full-time positions in our departments. Each department works on multiple studies at a time (and sometimes, multiple PIs), so it might be a very general position that they’re posting. It would be VERY frowned upon if you just showed up in those departments, or possibly even emailed the PI out of the blue, because these are professional positions, and you need to have specific experience or education, go through the proper HR channels, etc. If you came to my institution, you wouldn’t even be able to get in the building without an ID badge, so showing up isn’t an option.

      If you were an student, it would be more appropriate to put feelers out because you’re already on campus, and the level of tasks you’re being asked to do are very different from a full-time professional research assistant. I don’t know other types of research (short-term and/or part-time positions, etc.). I would suggest contacting departments by email and let them know what you’re looking for. It would be good just to reach out and make connections.

      1. MayravB*

        That’s a really good point about access–the places I’m looking at are in psychiatric hospitals or within regular hospitals. Even if it was a good idea to show up, I wouldn’t be able to! I’m not a student, but it does sound like networking is the way to go.

    4. NN*

      I’m a clinical/behavioural researcher at a university. I often help with hiring research assistants. I definitely wouldn’t show up (and same as AF says, you can’t get into the building without access) and probably wouldn’t even call, as everyone is very busy. But I’d be perfectly fine with someone emailing to ask who the PI is and to understand what the project(s) is/are about, especially as our job ads are pretty generic. I think networking is really valuable here too as others have suggested, as often we hire someone because we know they’ve previously worked for X who thought they were fantastic (but maybe doesn’t have a grant to keep them right now) or they are being mentored (informally) by Y, who the PI respects.

      1. MayravB*

        That brings up the point that the people I talk to don’t need to have worked exactly in the kind of research I’m interested in to vouch for me, just as long as they can speak positively about my work. Good remidner!

  36. Gene*

    Our replacement hiring is moving right along. The posting closed Friday and we got 12 applicants (it’s a pretty niche field and we are asking for experience), more than we expected. The Supplemental Questionnaires will be graded on Tuesday, and the oral panel is scheduled for June 14. Once we get a list of people who passed the panel, it goes to the Civil Service Commission for certification at the end of June and we can do hiring interviews. So we could potentially have someone on board by August.

  37. dear liza dear liza*

    iSO interview questions!

    I’m on the search committee for an entry-level hire. We do a ton of training so in the interviews, we don’t need to ask a lot of knowledge/skill questions. Instead, we’re more interested in what kind of employee and colleague the person will be. Previously, I’ve used more scenarios/ “tell me about a time when x” prompts, but sometimes these can really stump those who are fresh out of grad school. (Example: “Tell me about a time you had a conflict with a co-worker and how you resolved it” leads to a lot of “This hasn’t happened to me, sorry.”)

    I would love to hear about interview questions that you found illuminating. If it helps to know what we’re looking for, I’d say we want someone enthusiastic about our profession, with a good sense of professionalism, ability to work independently and in a team, and is good at balancing priorities.

    1. just laura*

      Can you expand the scenario –explain a time you had to resolve a conflict during a school project, how did you manage time with assignments/thesis, etc.?

    2. Jubilance*

      Can you rephrase the question? Instead of “Tell me about a time when you had conflict with a coworker…” try using “Tell me about a time when you had conflict with a teammate…”

      I’d be very surprised to hear someone fresh out of school say that they never had conflict with a teammate while in school.

    3. fposte*

      We also do scenarios about what happens in our workplace–we don’t expect them to do exactly what they’d do if they get trained, but we can see whether they think about the tasks in useful ways.

    4. Marvel*

      Honestly, in those situations, I feel like the strongest candidates will recognize the purpose of the question and extrapolate to a similar circumstance if they don’t have an example from the specific one mentioned. For instance, “I haven’t had any major conflicts with coworkers, but I had conflict Y with another grad student, and I handled it by doing X.”

      If you do get a “this hasn’t happened to me, sorry” than you could expand the question by coming back with, “well, what about conflicts with teammates while you were in school?” or “how would you say you handle interpersonal conflicts in general?” or “imagine scenario X; what would you do?”

    5. Not Karen*

      I think as-is the way they are answering the question is illuminating. A good job candidate wouldn’t say “This hasn’t happened to me, sorry.” even if it’s true; they would offer an alternative, such as a conflict with someone other than a coworker, or a hypothetical (e.g. “This hasn’t happened yet, but if it did, I would do X.”) This is covered in every single “how to get a job” book that I’ve ever read.

  38. beachlover*

    No question. Just a slight rant. So we are implementing a new Demand planning system, and I have to spend hours with software consultants going over and over our current processes and procedures. This on top of my regular day to day work. I have been on several implementation committees in the past. I find it interesting because I tend to be very logical and process oriented. However, reviewing things over and over and over gives me a headache! Thank god for 3 day weekend!! Woo Hoo!

  39. super anon*

    Outrageous story of the week:

    I am a new manager (1 month this week!), and for the most part I like it. I hired and trained 2 students to work for me for the summer. One has been doing amazingly well.. and the other not so much.

    I had had to have a very difficult conversation with him last week, after I found out that while I was on vacation he decided he could work from home because the “work” (quotation marks his, not mine) I gave him to do didn’t require him being in the office, even though I had told him multiple times summer students are not allowed to work from home. He continually came into work late – he was an hour late on his second day, and he told me it was because he was at brunch. When I came back to the office after my vacation, he told me that he had lied on his time sheet! He hadn’t worked from home at all while I was away, but he claimed nearly 20 hours and was paid for them because “he thought he might be really busy next week and would need more time to work”. It’s also blindingly apparent that he doesn’t respect me or the work I assign him, nor does he take me seriously as a manager.

    Normally I would have fired an employee on the spot for time stealing, because it’s theft and shows an amazingly stunning lack of awareness around what is acceptable at work, but my hr department wanted me to give him a chance because summer students need more mentoring than normal employees. So, we had a 1 hour long conversation where I laid out for him all of his unacceptable behaviour, that I would need to see it change quickly, and that most jobs would fire him instead of even having the conversation. I also told him that if he didn’t change, the next conversation would be me firing him. He seemed to understand. But fast forward to this week…

    Yesterday I told him that I would come to his office and see him before noon. I knock on his door at 11:30 and there’s no answer. I think that’s strange, but I told him he could wear headphones so maybe he just can’t hear me. I knock again – still no answer. So I open the door, and he is sleeping! Sleeping so deeply he is snoring! His computer is entirely off and it’s obvious he hasn’t been working all morning. I try to wake him up but he is dead to the world. So, I shut the door and go consult with HR on the best ways to wake up a sleeping employee that won’t get me in trouble (is shaking someone awake considered harassment?!) and how to approach this, because I was too aghast to even comprehend the situation. She also told me that last week he had left his office keys in the door to this office overnight. In a building that’s been broken in to 4 times since January. Keys to an office that has sensitive and confidential information and should never be left unlocked or easily accessible.

    Eventually we settled on sending him home for the day and telling him not to come in next week while I am on vacation again (I know, normally I wouldn’t go away so soon after hiring new employees, but these vacations were booked months before knowing I’d have direct reports). When I went to go tell him to go home he had woken up and was gone from his office – so I waited for him to come back. When he did I told him that when I came to see him he was sleeping and that was unacceptable, especially after the conversation last week. That because his access to our records system still hasn’t been approved and clearly he doesn’t take the other work I told him to do seriously that it would be best for him to go home, not to come in next week, and on Tuesday when I am back we will have a very serious conversation about the matter.

    Later that day he sent me an email demanding that I tell him why I sent him home, and that it was very inappropriate for me to send him home without having the discussion right away. He also told me that the reason he was sleeping was because he has family issues that are stopping him from sleeping well.. and that I should give him another chance (?!?!) because of that.

    I feel like I’m failing as a manager.. even though I know that isn’t true. But.. how many managers have to undertake disciplinary action (and essentially a PIP) on someone 3 weeks into their first manager role.. and then likely have to fire someone a month in?

    Anyway – thanks AAM fam and Allison, I feel like I never would have been able to approach this situation calmly and rationally (or even know what to do) without all of the great management advice I’ve read here for the past 2 years!

      1. super anon*

        I agree completely. I wanted to, but my hr department and the student worker program both told me I had to try to “mentor” him first, and then if he didn’t improve fire him.

        When we had our first serious discussion he told me that the reason he lied on his timesheet was because his other jobs allow it, so he thought that was okay everywhere?!?! I was so shocked it was difficult not to let my jaw drop the floor when he told m this!

        Also.. he’s not 18/19 and this isn’t his first job.. so his behaviour is even more baffling.

      2. Amy M in HR*

        “Fudging a time sheet usually means an instant firing. No excuses.” – Agreed – and this is normally written into an employee handbook so it is clear as day. With that said, by not firing him the precedent has been set, so if others fudge on their time sheets you would need to afford them the same “second chance” as you did this employee. Bad advice by your HR team!
        I managed employees for many years, and I can tell you that most of them will not be like this, hopefully this experience will make handling your other less difficult employees much easier. Good luck!

    2. Jennifer*

      It’s probably happened to other people before. Luck of the crappy draw, I guess.

      But hey, he’s conspicuously sucking, what else can you do?

    3. Karo*

      Does he not realize that he’s already on his “another chance”? That he should’ve been fired ages ago? This is ridiculous and so not your fault. There’s a basic level of expected behavior from employees that you can’t train into a person, and he’s not meeting that level.

      1. catsAreCool*

        “There’s a basic level of expected behavior from employees that you can’t train into a person, and he’s not meeting that level.” This!

    4. Rex*

      You have given this guy way more chances than he deserves. Firing always sucks, but this seems like a pretty clear case to me.

      1. Rex*

        Put it this way — you’re not doing him any favors about learning how the working world operates if there aren’t any consequences for this sort of thing. Honestly, that email he sent you would have been the last straw for me. See if HR will let you send an “actually, don’t come back at all” email.

          1. super anon*

            Hi Allison! Question – can you fire someone via email? From reading your blog I always thought this was the kind of conversation that’s best had in person?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Don’t do it via email — in part because you don’t know when or even if the person will see it. Are you asking because he’s not in the office for the next week? If so, I think it’s fine to do over the phone in a context like this one. However, if he will have to come back in anyway to returns keys and other property, I’d do it in-person – -have him come in, bring all his stuff, and do it that day.

              1. super anon*

                Oh, I was asking because Res suggested it and you replied to him, so I thought you might be endorsing that idea. :p

                I’m going to be on vacation next week and he won’t be back until the Tuesday of the week after. Do you suggest firing him first thing in the morning when he comes in?

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Oh whoops, I’d missed that.

                  If you’ll be on vacation after today, then yes, I’d do it as soon as you’re back. You could ask him to come in Monday instead of Tuesday, but that’s probably not practical since you’ll be getting settled after a week away, so yes, Tuesday morning. Get all your ducks arranged with HR ahead of time.

      2. Sas*

        But, I will say this. I was at an hourly paid position. Came in early, started working 15 minutes early, adjusted schedule to reflect this. Was able to do so. But, then I got a call at the store from another employee that needed a ride to work now! I said that I couldn’t, but other manager said I needed to do so. So, I left and went to pick up this person. Then, I forgot to change my schedule back. Well, I got torn apart for that. I was almost asked to leave, it was that bad. Make sure that you aren’t that type of manager also. Seems like you aren’t though (to the OP).

        I am surprised, and after some of the posts on here this week, that some people are allowed to manage anything and not be fired!! Am I the only one?

        1. Audiophile*

          I’m a bit confused. You started working 15 minutes early and put that on your time sheet. You were then ordered by a supervisor to pick up another employee. Were you exempt or non-exempt? If you were non-exempt I would think that would have been considered work related and you shouldn’t have to change your time sheet when you left to pick up the employee.

          1. Sas*

            I was confused also. But, that’s to show you that not all managers are good even if they say they are! I am not saying that for the other person’s case, but yeah, they don’t all tell the honest truth!

    5. Laura*

      Fire him. Now. Just because he’s a student doesn’t mean that he can get away with all those egregious mistakes.

      1. catsAreCool*

        It’s better if he learn now then later that this behavior isn’t acceptable. Although his e-mail makes it sound like he’s not going to learn until he gets fired from his next job.

    6. fposte*

      Don’t let yourself be pushed by HR on this. This is not somebody in need of a little coaching–this is a slacker who will take all your work time to police. This is not an appropriate job for a PIP. Fire him.

      1. BRR*

        Exactly. Your HR is wrong. You are not failing as a manager. Your employees can represent how you are as a manager but in this case it’s not you. The best thing you can do for him and for you is to fire him.

        Falsely reporting time isn’t something that you learn once you enter the professional world.

      2. super anon*

        I agree. Unfortunately due to the funding grant I was given through the university there were some steps I had to follow first (I’ve even heard of cases were student workers weren’t instantly fired for blatantly and knowingly violating our student information confidentiality agreement… which is absolute insanity), before I could move forward with firing him.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed with fposte. This person needs help on a remedial level as he does not understand the basics expected in workplaces and he does not understand how to keep a job. The reason you feel like you might be failing is because you are not expected to provide this level of remedial help and you are not set up to do it.
        People who work to teach basic job skills to others are given more tools than you have been given by your employer. This guy needs way more supervision and guidance than can be expected from someone in your position. He is not prepared to handle the work environment.

    7. Ama*

      Honestly, if HR balks I think you should lay out everything he’s done to them and push to fire him. Falsifying the time sheet alone should be a huge problem for them, much less failing to follow security protocols.

      I don’t think this is your fault. He clearly knows that student workers are given extra leeway at your university and is trying to see how far he can push it.

    9. Rebecca in Dallas*

      “I was late because I was at brunch.”

      I’m going to try this excuse next time I’m late. Will report back!

    10. A. D. Kay*

      Unbelievable! Honestly, I think the best thing that could happen to this guy would be for you to fire him. Maybe that will be a wake-up call for him. It sounds like he has been coddled and given “second chances” all his life, and needs to learn consequences for his behavior.

    11. Marvel*

      You are definitely NOT failing as a manager! You had a very difficult conversation with him in which you clearly laid out the issues and the expectations going forward. Now, things have not improved enough, it’s time for consequences. That really is all you can do–you can’t make people do the work and do it right if they’re unwilling to, no matter how hard you try.

      I think more new-ish managers have been in this situation than you realize, ESPECIALLY with student employees. It’s unfortunate but not unheard of. How involved were you in the hiring process? Because with issues like these coming up so quickly, I think that’s probably where the problem lies. While it’s not always possible, ideally this is something you’d weed out during interviews or when checking references.

      2. super anon*

        I was very involved in the hiring process. I conducted all of the interviews and reference checks myself, which is why I feel I extra-failed here.

        When I did the reference checks I asked questions about reliability, attendance, trustworthiness, and ability to do the work. All 3 references came back positive and indicated no waving red flags. One said he needed more structure than most, and to make it very clear what was expected of him… but with student workers that’s usually par for the course. He wasn’t my first choice candidate, but due to low applications I had to hire him after my top 3 choices had accepted other positions or else I would have lost my grant funding for the position. In the future I think I would rather lose the grant than have a situation like this happen again!

        1. fposte*

          “he needed more structure than most, and to make it very clear what was expected of him… but with student workers that’s usually par for the course”–but mostly when somebody mentions it it’s because it’s more than usual.

          1. super anon*

            Absolutely – I wish I had known that when I was hiring. Our hiring guide for these types of student positions indicates that these positions are typically to be used as mentoring/PD experience for students who may not have a lot of experience, or who need guidance, etc. It says that we should take that into account when hiring and checking references, so I did.

            This is definitely a learning experience for me too, and now I know something to definitely look out for in the hiring process. It sucks, but I’m going to try to see this as a positive and learn from it, the way I hope my (soon to be) former student worker does.

    12. Silver Radicand*

      I manage many college student and student-aged workers and I have totally had similar conversations and situations with several employees. At this point what you’ve described warrants immediate firing. Over the phone, if necessary (though having a witness with you is a good plan given his contentiousness).

      As far as feeling it reflects on you, this person has shown that it doesn’t. This is clearly their own mess. Now, you can always try look for any signs that might’ve tipped you off when hiring to steer away from such employees in the future, but seriously, this guy is far into territory where the learning he needs is This Will Get You Fired.

      Also, fist-bump to my fellow manager!

    13. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Yep, you need to fire him. No point in a PIP – to me those are for people who are doing their jobs but just not well enough … he’s not doing his job. He’s lying, stealing and sleeping on company time. And I’m sorry that he has family issues but so do many, many people who aren’t sleeping at their desks. He needs to go. I’m not sure who you talked to in HR, but if you need to, take it up the food chain and don’t let them try to push you around because you’re a new-ish manager.

    14. Dr. Doll*

      Good lord, YOU are not failing at all. He is spectacularly nosediving. Fire him immediately with no further discussion. It’ll just be harder the longer you wait.

      And don’t worry; we all hire at least ONE that we wish we hadn’t.

  40. Lizzy*

    I have a question for other Executive Assistants (out of curiosity): What type of personality or personalities do you work with/have worked with?

    I ask because I am in a first-time role assisting a marketing executive who is very sweet and a great people person, but is crazy sloppy and unorganized (hence where I come in). At his worst, he can be impulsive and anti-procedure/anti-authority, which makes it harder for me to do my job. He is essentially the antithesis of the stereotypical Type A executive and the only senior leader in my org who does not have Type A tendencies.

    I guess I am just curious to see what types of personalities other EAs have to deal with or dealt with in the past, good, bad, or ugly…

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      When I was an admin, my least favorite person to work for was the one who gave me half-instructions. If I went back to get clarity, she was annoyed. If I used my best judgement based on my knowledge of her and past requests, and got it wrong, she was annoyed. I’m not a mind-reader!

      2. SJ*

        Amen! I’m not an admin but this is my boss all over. Half-instructions or one-word emails that say “Update?” ……ON WHAT? And then, of course, the pissy response when I ask for clarification.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Or getting cc’d on a long chain of emails. Sometimes I’m supposed to intuit that it’s just FYI and I don’t need to do anything; other times there’s a request, made by someone else to someone else, buried 10 emails deep in the chain and I’m supposed to intuit that I’m being asked to fulfill it.

    2. formerea*

      haha! my old boss whom I worked with for 2 yrs as his assistant was an asshole but he adored me.

      22 & freshly out of college, i interviewed for a EA position for a large corporate law firm where my boss was C-level executive. he’s also from Colombia and has a very machismo attitude. I was hired on the spot and shortly after two wks of working there i found out his previous assistants (5 total in 2 yrs) quit or he fired. so i was terrified.

      my desk was outside his office so i saw him come in every morning and would say good morning but he would straight up ignore me. i also was the messenger for anyone who needed to speak with him. so i was constantly popping into his office. he would ignore me. he was/and is an asshole. very private guy, he is always right, VERY unorganized, impulsive and does whatever he wants whenever he wants. missplaced files all the time, couldnt remember details, chose not to/forgot to go to meetings. basically acted like a bratty little kid.

      i started going and sitting down in a chair across from him and asking how he was. eventually he started saying good morning. I never argued or questioned him. if i knew what he was telling me something & it was incorrect, i never told him. i just said ok & went & did things correctly, got the job done right. THEN when completed i would explain that x wasn’t possible for y reasons and this is how i got the results. icing on the cake was, i decorated his office for his birthday and brought cake. he beamed like a kid & left the balloons & streamers in his office for almost a yr. i also respected his privacy. never spoke negative to or about him. i respected him as a boss and was patient in earning his trust so that way I could start being more vocal about things.

      after his birthday, he became more open minded to my opinions and i was able to *slowly* try things my way. due to his unorganization, i on my own started going into his office and cleaning his desk daily. getting all his files and reorganizing them. i started implementing policies and procedures for him to follow and routines. he obviously wouldn’t abide by them but i was strict and let him know that we had to do these things in order to keep him on track. i became more vocal and assertive about how to manage him, he would push back slightly in not following “my rules” and i would let him do what he wanted but as soon as he did he would mess up and realized i was right. example: i constantly had to remind him about meetings but he hated them and one day just told me i nagged him more than his wife did. so i didnt “nag” him for a day and he missed multiple meetings with important people. he was upset he missed them (was disrespectful or rude) just asked why i didnt remind him. so i told him i wasnt going to nag him. after that he kept his mouth closed. and never missed a meeting again.

      he also became more laid back and happier in the office. after 6 mos, people noticed a difference. even his wife. it was a slow process to get him to where he’s at now. he told me i was the best assistant he ever had and the most trustworthy person who worked for him.

      1. Zahra*

        Oh my, that would be so me if I was in a similar position. Those are very ADHD traits and the way you managed him and gave him structure is exactly how you can manage someone with ADHD (but you need cooperation, or it might backfire).

      2. Aurion*

        Wow, kudos to you for figuring out how to work with him! And you were only 22??

        How did he handle you leaving? “Please don’t leave, I’ll double your pay?” And how did your replacement fare under him, do you know?

    3. Pwyll*

      I’ve had the super Type-A bosses who wanted to micromanage everything I did for them, and the entirely scattered artists. I’d get e-mails (after MONTHS of working for the Type-A) like: “Place my invoices in a blue folder with a label in type 14 font bolded on a rack at the top-right of my desk”. Or, “I want to be on the Delta 1231 to DC arriving at noon, and arrange for a couch to take me leaving at 9:45” who would go absolutely insane when I’d tell her that Delta doesn’t fly to DC, there aren’t any flights arriving at noon, and a 9:45 pickup would make her late for the flight. She was special.

      I was also EA to a CEO who literally couldn’t fathom what I did with my time all day. He just knew that things like his schedule, office, travel, etc. just magically happened, but couldn’t grasp how such things could take up so much of my time. Once we had a huge conference as a client and he loaned me to the conference organizers because “You have details that need to be accomplished, and Pwyll makes it so I don’t ever see details, so I think he could be helpful with this” which I think was meant to be his highest compliment of me.

      1. Brooke*

        ““I want to be on the Delta 1231 to DC arriving at noon, and arrange for a couch to take me leaving at 9:45″”

        I know you meant coach but I have this awesome picture in my head of a flying couch AND I WANT ONE.

        1. Pwyll*

          Hah! Though, if I were truly accurate, it would have read:

          “Pywll: i ned to be in dc tmrrw. bk Delta 1231 ariving noon order couch take me lving 945”

    4. I'm Not Phyllis*

      So I’ve been EA to three people. The first was basically a no-show during working hours (she was only acting in the role, though so at least it was temporary). With her I just learned to work with her hours – never book meetings in the morning. It was annoying but it was only for a few months. The second person was literally the boss from hell who expected me to work 24/7, didn’t want to talk to me but still somehow expected me to know everything – I can’t even tell you what a miserable experience this was. With her I learned basically just to do what she wanted, when she wanted it, whether it made sense to me or not, because there wasn’t really another option. She got rid of everyone who disagreed with her.

      Thankfully the person I’m working for now is AWESOME. He’s smart, kind, reasonable and very communicative. He doesn’t need to be “managed up” and he’s generally just a joy to work with.

      So the answer if there is one – it’s the luck of the draw as to what personality type you’ll get. The big difference between a CEO and other managers is that they don’t have anyone above them to regulate their behaviour (unless you count a Board of Directors, but they’re not on site …) so sometimes their quirks can be more pronounced.

      1. newreader*

        Very much this – there are a variety of types of executives and managers and it really is the luck of the draw in many cases. I’m currently an EA to a VP and he is wonderful to work for. Unfortunately, he’s leaving our company soon and I’m a bit worried about who I’ll be working for next. Hopefully none of the horror stories in these comments!

  41. MoinMoin*

    Started with a new company in July, got promoted in December. Husband was offered and accepted a promotion out of state, so now we’re moving and I feel like I’m starting over again in my career. I’m still in the original location selling the house while he’s already moved up and I’m trying to figure out when to tell my employer. The plan was that I’d sell the house and while doing that job search so I’d have an idea of the job market by the time I was our of the house. Instead, the house was under contract within 72 hours and I’ve been out of town and haven’t started looking for a job at all and now I’m looking at 2 weeks before we close. I can stay indefinitely in a family member’s winter home until I’m ready to move up with my husband, but I’m having trouble figuring out the right time to tell my employer.
    I’d be willing to give a long notice period (through January if I don’t get another job in the meantime) but our department has had a lot of restructuring in the last few months and the few coworkers I’ve spoken with don’t seem very confident that me giving a long notice would be to my advantage. Still, 2 other people on our team of 8 are being promoted to other departments and since I know they’ll be hiring and training anyway, I guess I’m wistfully stuck wanting to tell them for efficiency if nothing else. And/or the 2% chance I could work remotely.
    I think I know anyone from the outside would read this and say it’s obvious that I should look out for me and not advise them until I’m ready to leave anyway, so I’ll just ask if anyone else has been in a similar position and what they did.
    Or alternatively, if anyone knows about the job market in Fort Collins.

    1. Laura*

      The job market in Fort Collins is good. Not sure what industry you’re in, but you might have skills that would be valuable at Colorado State University. It’s a great college town– I’m sure you will like it!

      Giving notice– what would you prefer? Do you like your job enough to stay longer? Can you afford to not have income for a little while while you search for a job? Do you WANT to be away from your husband that long? Just questions to ask yourself. It doesn’t seem like it would hurt for you to give two weeks’ notice like anyone else.

      1. MoinMoin*

        Thanks, you have no idea how much I appreciate a little assurance on my future home.
        My current job is accounting-adjacent and it kills me that I may be leaving them in the lurch for year end. But I’ll give as much notice as I can if I get a new job (or decide I just need to move already and continue my search locally), and in the meantime just trying to do everything I can to document and streamline processes and generally make it as simple as possible for anyone walking into the job.
        I guess I really want to be honest because I’ll feel less guilty and in my head this would play out with me having some certainty about what I do for how long while I’m here and I wouldn’t have to worry about being so discreet with my job search and I’d get a glowing recommendation from people here and then they offer to let me work remote for a bazillion dollars and it just all works so nicely.

    2. Dot Warner*

      I’m not familiar with the job market in Fort Collins, but the town as a whole seems like a great place to live! The downtown area is very nice – lots of shopping, restaurants, bars. In addition to CSU, Fort Collins is home to the New Belgium Brewery (makers of Fat Tire), which might be a good place to work if you’re a beer drinker. :) It’s also a short drive to the mountains and there are lots of opportunities for skiing/snowboarding, hiking, and whitewater rafting.

      1. mander*

        An excellent point on the beer, though Fat Tire is not my favourite (I prefer 1554 black lager — excellent!). I’ve never actually been to Fort Collins, despite growing up in Colorado, but it always has had a reputation for being a nice place.

  42. on a train in some rain*

    Hello Friday open thread,
    I think there have been posts/threads on AAM before about how to train oneself to wait to speak until the message comes out tactfully and appropriately. I think I’m good at that, but lately I’ve been getting feedback from a coworker that my facial expressions are very expressive and the negative faces I make expose my gut reaction. I’m asking for suggestions on strengthening control to keep a calm, neutral face.

    2. Jules the First*

      Ask someone to flag it for you. I have a colleague who brings out the snark in me and we regularly end up in meetings together where I have to be polite. I enlisted another meeting attendee to sit opposite me and signal discreetly when my body language was inappropriate – it took a few months, but I can now meet with this guy without incident (mostly – the odd day I’m tired or grumpy, he can still push my buttons).

      1. on a train in some rain*

        Thanks to both of you for the suggestions. They sound like good ideas to try.

    3. Frustrated Optimist*

      I try to follow the maxim of “seek first to understand, then to be understood.” To this end, I try to focus all of my attention on what the other person is saying, versus formulating my response in my head while they’re actually still speaking. This, I believe, keeps my face from revealing emotions I may not be ready to share.

    4. Joanna*

      This probably sounds dumb, but sometimes pretending like you’re a spy who is there to observe as much as possible while saying and expressing as little as possible helps.

  43. Lunar*

    Hi AAM friends! I have a question about resumes and creative jobs. Basically my situation is this: I will soon be relocating to a new city (with many creative industries) and will be looking for a new job. What I’m most interested in is art and I’d hope to someday have an art/design related job or hage my own small business making/selling my art. I didn’t go to school for art and my current job is at a small nonprofit (not arts related) where I wear many hats (website management/social media/admin/programs/operations – we’re very small). I’d love to learn more/break into the arts industry and would be happy to work in a position doing the more admin-related stuff that I’m doing now for an artist or at a more arts-focused company. Any advice on how to do this?
    My resume right now is extremely nonprofit heavy and I don’t really have any professions art jobs to add to it (I do have a small following on social media and have been featured in a few small publications, but not really anything I’d normally include on a resume). Should I add my more art related stuff to my resume, even if there isn’t much of it? Or should I keep it off and just write about my passion for art in a cover letter? Are arts jobs (even not as an artist) completely different in hiring and I’m doing this all wrong? Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. First Initial dot Last Name*

      Start looking at the resumes of artists working the way you want to work. You’ll begin to see that Artists have a different kind of resume than a regular work resume. They’ll maybe have a chronological exhibition record broken out in solo and group shows, awards, (grants and special honors), publications etc., as well you will have to maintain a portfolio, no more than 20 slides, generally no more than 5 minutes of moving image or sound work (give or take). You must, must, must have a portfolio website. period.

      “Juried” shows don’t count, they’re pay to play and have little value on your exhibition record.
      Document all of your work. It’s fine to make and sell, but, pix or it didn’t happen.

      Speaking as an enculturated and specially educated artist in multiple disciplines, it’s still hard to “break into the arts” as a creative. I was an “outsider” artist for 25 years before finally going to school because I felt that I had to in order to break through the ceiling I was bumping into. Depending on the field you’re talking about it may be necessary to have a degree, even if that degree is only an associated degree where you’d at least take discipline related history classes, which (I agree) are important to understanding the context of your work in the field. For example, it’s one thing to be a typeface/font nerd, it’s another thing to understand the nuances of how a specific serif evokes particular feelings. And, there’s also a LOT of value to having sat through class critiques.

      A lot of “breaking in” to the arts and creative work is just showing up. Go to the art walks in your area, hobnob, talk with people, go to the screenings, (again I don’t know what art practice you’re referring to), gallery openings, readings, performances, schedule and plan and make yourself go. The more familiar people are with you as a person the more likely they’ll think of you when a creative task comes up, or when a business participating in the neighborhood art walk is thinking about hanging an emerging talent on their walls. Seriously, I hate this part of it, but networking is super important.

      Good luck, be persistent and tenacious.

  44. Abigael*

    So I’ve seen posts on AAM about what is the correct salutation to begin emails (dear/hello/colon/comma/etc), but I’m wondering what people like to use as their closing, especially for more informal emails. I typically use “sincerely” but sometimes that feels a bit stuffy when it’s just a short note to someone in my office. However, I also don’t want to end with JUST my name because that seems to be too abrupt. I’ve seen variations like “Kind regards” or “respectfully” but those also seem very formal to me. I’ve also seen people use “thanks” as a closing, but what if I’m not thanking them for anything?

    So, what do you usually use for your closing for emails? Do you just have one standard closing, or do you switch it up depending on context?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I use “Best,” and “Many thanks,” a lot — the thanks even if I’m not thanking them for anything. It’s just an acknowledgement of, thanks for reading this and taking the time to handle my request/whatever.

      1. Karo*

        I use thanks as well, and this is sort of how I think about it.

        Honestly, though, your best bet is to look at how others in your organization or that you’re emailing are signing off and to copy them.

    2. Jennifer*

      I say thanks. Everything else sounds just too pretentious. Even if I technically have zero reason to thank them for anything, I’m using it because I have to say something and I don’t like “best” or whatever else we’re supposed to use.

    3. Ad Astra*

      If I’m not thanking them for something, I sometimes just let my email signature do the talking. Or I’ll throw in “Have a great weekend!” or something conversational. Stuff like “sincerely” or “kind regards” would be way too formal for my office. Really, “Best” is a bit formal for my office, but I think it would work in a lot of other settings.

    5. Canadian Natasha*

      When I compose emails for work purposes I most often use “Yours,” (short for “Sincerely yours,”) in my primary email and adjust formality from there. Once someone replies, I’ll close with “Thank you,” or “Thanks,” depending on the formality of their response. Once we’ve been in regular informal communication I may even close with a casual “Have a great week(end),” or similar. With same-level coworkers I would default to just my name or else a smiley face emoticon (We are the type of office where this is considered appropriate. Obviously not all workplaces feel the same.). FWIW, I am in an admin position where I regularly communicate by email with judges, lawyers, and doctors.

    6. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      I use “thanks” when I close an email, but I don’t close emails to people I speak with regularly. “Thanks” then works out to be appropriate 98% of the time anyway. I don’t think people think about the 2% of the time that it’s not.

      I use “Best” when I’m blowing someone off. :) “Best” is for “Here’s some info, I can’t help you any more than this, hope to not hear from you again, best of luck”

      1. Ife*

        I also use “thanks” for everything, or end with my signature. The way I see it, it doesn’t have to make sense, it’s just a filler word that means “I’m done now.”

    7. De Minimis*

      Most of my e-mails are internal, so I normally use “Thanks.”

      I will use “Thank you” with outside people depending on the nature of the communication, people that I know a little better [if we’ve met in person or talked on the phone a lot] I will go back to “Thanks.” I rarely use anything else.

    9. SS*

      My default is to end with “Thanks,” then my name. I don’t see it as thanking them for something in particular, but more like ‘thanks for your time’. If it’s a quick back and forth I’ll just end it with my name. I’ll change it up if it’s something more formal to end with “Regards” or “Sincerely”.

    10. LQ*

      I do variants of thanks. Thanks! Thanks, Thank you, Thank you very much!

      I have concerns about being seen as too abrupt and too harsh and thanking people for their time when they’ve read my email is one of the easiest things to do.

      I had a day where I was just signing off as
      – LQ
      and I had like 3 people stop and ask if I was mad at them, so back to thanks it is.

    11. BRR*

      I use depending on the situation thanks, with thanks, warm regards, all the best, or have a great weekend (like the one I sent this morning).

    12. super anon*

      I use “Cheers” for informal emails, especially with people I have a good rapport with. I use “Best” when I’m sending emails to large groups of people, especially in emails where I’m asking for something. I’ll also use “Thank you,” if it feels appropriate (usually if there’s a big ask involved, or if it’s an email i’m asking to be forward to other people who i missed).

      I’ve seen some weird salutations come through my inbox though. “All my relations” is the most baffling one, followed by “With respect”, especially because it is my coworker who is always trying to undermine me who sends that one… so I always read it in a passive aggressive tone.

      1. De Minimis*

        “All my relations” is a popular phrase within some American Indian communities, it is sort of like “Cheers…”

        I’m guessing it’s some kind of weird affectation, though, I’ve never heard of anyone using it as a substitute for “Sincerely yours…”

        1. super anon*

          Oh, that’s good to know about all my relations! I googled the phrase and the first result was an article about indigenous erotica, which made me even more uncomfortable receiving it in an email.

          1. AnotherFed*

            That just made me bust out laughing. Good thing most people are gone for the day!

    14. Dot Warner*

      I use “Cheers” most of the time. If it’s an informal context, I might do “TGIF” or “Happy Hump Day.”

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Thanks for reading.
      Thanks for considering.
      Will be in touch
      If you have any questions, please call/email me.
      Have a good afternoon/day/weekend.

      It’s also helpful to consider the individual. Most of the people I email are so busy they would not even realize that I just abruptly ended the email with just my name. One of these busy people signs with his first initial. So I take my cues from that.

  45. Anon For This*

    I had an interview last week that I think went well, but I don’t think I’m the right fit for the position. I really hate when you show up in a suit and everyone’s in jeans. Anyway, they said they’d probably make their decision early this week and not it’s late this week and I’m trying not to be impatient, but I think today I’ll do a quick follow up email just to let them know I’m still interested, etc. Not so much a question; more an…update?

    I seriously hate this part of the job search/interview process.

    1. Collie*

      3-5 days, but be prepared to request more last minute in case there are complications. I ended up having issues (an infection? I can’t remember at this point…too many drugs) and, while I was a student at the time and it was during the summer, I was pretty much on the couch for a whole week. I understand this was somewhat unusual, but it’s best to be prepared!

    2. Marvel*

      If it helps, it’s pretty normal to be dressed more formally than the interviewers! Expected, even, in some cases. That’s not indicative of a problem on either end.

      Did you send a thank-you email after your interview? If so, I’d skip the follow-up email now; it’s only been a few days since they said they’d probably (emphasis on probably) get back to you, and that’s hardly any time at all. If you don’t hear from them in another couple of weeks, you could maybe send an email then, but I’d honestly just figure they’re not interested and move on.

      1. Anon For This*

        Yeah, I sent the Thank You email the day after the interview. I’m trying to remind myself that it took them a month and a half to even call for the interview so it might take them forever to even tell me they’ve made another choice.

  46. LabTech*

    Hi All, a quick question: What’s a reasonable amount of time to take off for getting all four wisdom teeth extracted? Or, how much time did you take off if you got them extracted?

    1. Ell*

      I had all three (never grew a 4th) taken out and was down for about 5 days. I’m extremely sensitive to anesthesia, vicodin and the like so I was woozy for like 4 days. I had an employee who took three days off recently and was fine though.

    2. Minion*

      I took about 3 days, I think. It’s been so long ago it’s hard to remember, but I do remember being in a lot of pain and on a pretty powerful pain pill, so I would have been useless at work even if I had gone in.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      I had mine out on a Monday and went on to work security an all-day concert on Saturday (Ozzfest!). I was still on drugs but I don’t think a whole lot of people that day weren’t at least somewhat chemically altered…
      Anywho, I remember not being able to open my mouth more than a centimeter for the better part of that week, and being too weak from not being able to eat to do much of anything. If I had to do it again I’d give myself a whole week.

      1. Lillian McGee*

        Reading these other comments, I feel I should qualify my recommendation with: I was pretty weak in constitution to begin with, and I reacted badly to the anesthesia so if you are of tougher stuff, you may not need a whole week.

        1. Lillian McGee*

          Yep! Backstage, which sounds super serious but we were venue security so really just checking passes and telling people where stuff is.

          My best one from Ozzfest was the year the Hell’s Angels showed up and just walked on through the doors. The guys at the gates tried to stop them (verbally) but they didn’t even turn their heads. Even the tour security boss was scared. “Uhh, just let them in. I’ll keep an eye on them” he said. Better him than me.

      3. Hlyssande*

        I had that same problem….but also got dry sockets and strep at the same time. :D

    4. the_scientist*

      I think I took two or three days off, plus a weekend? I’m pretty sure I had them out on a Thursday and was back at work by Monday/Tuesday. However, I was awake for my removal, not under general anaesthetic (DO NOT RECOMMEND, FYI) so didn’t have to deal with complications from that. I had all four done at once without complications, but I had pain for about two weeks and significant (hilarious) swelling. I don’t know what they gave me for the pain, but it was fantastic–I could drive while taking it!– which also eased recovery considerably.

      It really varies person to person and you can’t know in advance if you’ll have complications or react poorly to the anaesthetic or to the drugs. My brother had his out a year after me and was fine within a day, and a friend had every complication imaginable (cysts over the teeth, dry sockets, infection), so you just never know! Three days would be the absolute minimum, I would think.

      1. ThatGirl*

        To counter this, I had both top ones out at once and one lower one later – all without general anethesia – and I did fine. No complications, not much swelling, the only problem I had was the vicodin making me nauseated. I took about 2-3 days to recover in both cases.

        BUT, my dad had five out at once (yes, five) and looked like a chimpmunk for a week, so … YMMV.

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I was out for one day, plus a weekend. My sister was out for an entire week. It really depends on your reaction to anesthesia, the post-op meds, and your general recovery time.

    6. Wisdom plus*

      I had 5 wisdom teeth, 2 of which were fused together and had to be hammer-chiseled into pieces for removal. Skilled dentist. I was a little sore for a few days. Never needed more than Tylenol, though, and I am a wuss for pain. Point being, don’t assume this is going to be that difficult because it may not be.

    7. Anne S*

      It depends hugely on how complicated your removal is. Mine was about the easiest possible – they popped them out after giving me some novocaine, no drilling/cutting/stitches required. By the next day I didn’t even need advil, and could have gone to work if I wasn’t eating pudding or ice cream every 2 hours. (I had taken that day off, though, so treated it as a surprise vacation day.)

      1. Snork Maiden*

        Yes, they just popped mine out, no cutting or anything required, just some freezing. I took an ibuprofen and walked home, went to work the next day no worries.

    8. MsMaryMary*

      I took three days, but there was a weekend in the middle. I think I had my teeth extracted on Thursday, and then took Friday and Monday as PTO too. I probably could have worked on Monday, or at least worked from home, but I was still taking Vicodin. I get loopy/sleepy on Vicodin, so working while on meds is a bad idea.

      1. Jules the First*

        I took a week (had mine out under general anesthetic – learned the hard way that anesthesia and me are not friendly!), but I looked like a boxing-mad chipmunk for about a month (yay for red hair and fair skin!!) and couldn’t really chew for much of that month.

        My younger sister had hers out at the dentist, took three days off and was back at work on day four.

    9. Ama*

      I had three of my four extracted (they had to put me all the way under), and I took off a Thursday/Friday so I had four days to recover, and that was fine. Although I should probably mention that I was in my mid twenties at the time and maybe a little more resilient than I am now.

    10. Collie*

      3-5 days, but be prepared to request more last minute in case there are complications. I ended up having issues (an infection? I can’t remember at this point…too many drugs) and, while I was a student at the time and it was during the summer, I was pretty much on the couch for a whole week. I understand this was somewhat unusual, but it’s best to be prepared!

    11. Aurion*

      Well, I had complications and one of the wounds didn’t seal properly (I was literally spitting blood clots all night; my bathroom looked like a murder scene and my pillowcase didn’t bear thinking about. And yes, I tried everything they recommended, and additional tips my surgeon suggested when I called him). Didn’t get that patched up until about 30 hours later after the surgery.

      I was down and out for a week, maybe a bit more. Could barely drink the first two days. I wasn’t even 20 yet either, so I was pretty resilient and decent constitution. So you really never know.

      (And certain people accidentally ate my ice cream. If looks could kill…)

    12. Jennifer*

      It’ll vary. I was pretty much fine a few hours after surgery, but some people are wiped out. I’d probably plan on being out a few days and then play it by ear. I think I took off for a week from work though even though I didn’t end up needing it.

    13. Seal*

      As an undergraduate many years ago I had all 4 removed with general anesthesia and went back to work after 3 days, although I probably should have taken the entire week. Unbeknownst to me, I had a major reaction to the anesthetic and was violently ill for 2 days after the procedure; I was still weak and woozy when I went back to work. My a-hole boss at the time, knowing I was still not 100%, assigned me to a project that involved packing and stacking boxes for several hours; she assigned the rest of the student workers desk work. All that physical activity stretched out my recovery by a few days. To this day I still resent that nasty woman.

      1. Laura*

        Ooooh, gotta chime in here. Physical activity after wisdom teeth removal is a big no-no. I felt well the day after I got mine out and played tennis. HUGE mistake, and I paid for it by having delayed pain later than I should have.

    14. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I had to have two pulled and two cut out and was put under general anesthesia. It was a long time ago, but I feel like I had it done on Thursday and was back at work on Monday? I don’t remember being in a whole lot of pain after the first day or so, but it was hard to eat for a week or so.

    15. AnotherFed*

      I think I was only down for two days, but I still had pretty noticeable swelling when I went back. It also took me a couple more days to be willing to eat real food – I was living on powerade and jello for a few days.

    16. LabTech*

      Thanks for the information, everyone! I was feeling really hesitant to ask for a week off (they’ll be removed on a Monday), but it looks like 3-5 days is average. I appreciate the confidence boost!

    17. Laura*

      Got mine out a couple weeks ago! I got them out on a Friday and took Monday off. Tuesday I went to work but felt AWFUL and left at lunchtime. But I handled the surgery like a champ– I have colleagues who took off a full week. It’s really dependent on how you handle the procedure.

    18. Crylo Ren*

      It would probably depend on how sensitive you are to the anesthesia and how traumatic the extraction is (ie if you have multiple impacted teeth). I didn’t take any time off when I had my wisdom teeth taken out. One was impacted so it had to be broken into pieces first and then fished out, which was pretty traumatic.

      But, I did have the procedure done around noon on a Thursday so I had the whole rest of the afternoon/evening to sleep off the anesthesia/pain meds, and then Fridays at that employer were pretty chilled out so it wasn’t the worst thing in the world. However I had a coworker who had to take an entire week off because of complications from her extractions, so YMMV.

    19. LQ*

      I had 4 (I’m in my mid 30s because I do think that matters a bit) and I had them done Thursday morning, I had Friday off and then the weekend. I ended up with dry sockets and a lot of pain (and the actual extraction took like 3 or 4 times as long as expected, the dentist said his arms were sore for the next couple days it was so bad). If I could have I would have taken three days off the next week but I had a Big Event so I had to go to work. It was horrible, coworkers were reminding me to take pain meds when I got snappy because they were wearing off. I didn’t have anesthesia. (It was a really long couple hours!)

      But the dentist said I was in the top 5 worst extractions he’s ever had so it was a pretty unusual experience.

    20. Witty Nickname*

      I had mine out on a Friday (early in the morning), with general anesthesia, and was back at work on Monday. By then, I still had some soreness, but nothing that Tylenol or Advil couldn’t handle. I was actually up and about by Friday evening and had some activities I did over the weekend. For me, the worst part was having to chew with my front teeth for a few days until my stitches fell out.

    21. GiantPanda*

      I had the extraction on Wednesday, went back to work the following Monday. Probably should have waited one day longer.

    22. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I had wisdom teeth at 16, and 25. Then a scope at 28.

      The last surgery (scope) took me about a week to get over the aneasthesia. Wisdom teeth at 25 I had a swollen face for 3 days and could not eat much or feel much like talking for 4 days after that.

    23. Canton*

      I didn’t take any time. I had all 4 removed on Saturday and went in to work on Monday. I didn’t start to really feel pain until a day or 2 later when the throbbing started. I was able to work through it and by the weekend I was mostly ok.

  47. Minion*

    I had a recruiter contact me for the VERY FIRST TIME on Wednesday. What I mean is, I’ve never been in a position where recruiters would actively seek me out. Having read the message (It was on LinkedIn), I’m sure it’s not a scam and an actual job exists, but the wording (and the pay – WOW), makes me think I’m likely not qualified, so I’m not actually going to apply.
    Out of curiosity, though, should I respond to the recruiter at all when all I have to say is that I’m not qualified but, gee whiz, thanks for contacting me and giving me a little ego boost! LOL
    And, no she didn’t give specifics for the job, just that it’s a Senior Finance position and it pays more than double what I’m making now and it’s in a city about 2 hours away from where I live right now.

    1. HR Pro*

      Personally, yes, I would probably respond, because I’d want to believe that the recruiter might contact me in the future if they had a job more suitable to me. It’s quite possible that won’t actually happen, though — for example, if the recruiter specializes in something else (such as healthcare recruiting) but is trying to fill this job as a favor to someone.

      On the other hand, some recruiters will have the opposite reaction and contact you all the time.

      I would have had the same reaction as you — so flattered that a recruiter actually contacted me! I am not sure I would mention the ego boost in the reply, though. (Definitely thank them for their interest, of course.)

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      The proper reply is, “That job sounds very interesting, can you tell me more about it?”
      When you have more information and it still seems like the job might be a reach, you can ask the recruiter why they think you would be a good fit. You might be surprised.

  48. Sassafras*

    This may be one of the questions that kind of straddles work and personal so I’m sorry if it’s in the wrong thread.

    A friend asked me to take a look at his resume and it… breaks a lot of the guidelines AAM and other places suggest. There’s an objective. It’s very long for someone who’s been in the working world < 10 years; there's a full page of responsibilities for current job he's been at for just about 2 years.

    He just asked me to help check spelling and such so I don't know if it's my place to get into everything else. I want to help this friend. He deserves to get a great job, but I don't think this resume is going to help that end. Before even opening the resume, I recommended this blog for general job searching help so I'm hoping he does so and gets the message. I'd also like to say something less subtle without seeming like a know-it-all or whatever else.

    Suggestions?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I’d do the spelling, but then (if he has or hasn’t looked at AAM) perhaps just kindly say, “You know, I’ve heard that the current trend is not to have objectives because of X and Y” and refer to appropriate AAM blogs. (But if you wanted an out or give him an out, could add, “But I know some industries have different norms?”) Sorry I know I’m unhelpful.

    2. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I would probably say something like “You know, I was redoing my own resume recently and read X,Y,Z advice. Would you like me to give you some feedback/direction on that aspect of it, too?”

    3. Lily Evans*

      I had a similar situation, but luckily I knew that I could say to that friend, “Are you sure you only want a spelling/grammar check? Because I have feedback on other things…” but she’s the type who’s pretty open to constructive criticism. In your case, you could point him to the AAM resume tag specifically and mention that it seems like the advice he’s working with is out of date. But I have a feeling this is a leading a horse to water situation.

    4. Anon Moose*

      Say your feedback nicely and give him the AAM resource. Ask him why he did his resume this way- as you have said, different norms for different jobs. But even if he doesn’t change or listen to your advice now, it may ping later when job searching may not go well with the current resume version. But if he doesn’t listen at all, well that’s his prerogative.

    5. BRR*

      Depending on your situation the mildest besides just giving it back would be, “I checked the spelling and here you go. While looking at it I had some other thoughts if you ever want to hear them (and I would limit it to a couple points)” to “I think you should change X because Y.”

  49. Vanishing Girl*

    I’m working with two others on developing an presentation and Q&A session about our (new) department to take around the company and introduce ourselves to other departments. One of the other people working on it is my coworker and the other is my boss. I was really excited about it until earlier this week, when my boss said that he figured we’d all present a section of the presentation. Then he backtracked and said I didn’t have to present if I didn’t want to do it. He’s seen me present before and said I did well, but I’m confused why he offered this to me and not my coworker. I feel kind of slighted, as if he doesn’t think I can handle it. (I think part of this is because he and my coworker are pretty close and talk a lot together.) Is there a better reason why he’d single me out like that?

    1. The Rat-Catcher*

      This sounds to me like boss felt like he was telling you that you had to present and then backtracked because he wanted you to have the option. If he knows coworker better, he may not have been as concerned with that, or they may have already discussed it.
      Just one interpretation, though.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ask him if there is a concern he would like the two of you to talk about. Explain that you were excited about this presentation.

      It could be that he realized he had voluntold you and he needed to backtrack by offering you an out. It could be that the two of you are both overthinking and you just need to talk to each other.

  50. Shhhhhh*

    I am so torn.

    I scored an interview! But leaving a position is such a hard decision. I understand I’m not committing to anything by interviewing, but I’m so torn.

    Potentially more money, finally a team to help me, and more streamlined duties. I almost can’t at least try, when facing literally no backup at my current job, having to cover what feels like everything, and a tiny office full of moods.

    My office has been hyper-vigilant about people leaving lately though. Seriously, I never take time off and when I do, it’s pretty obvious why. (Going to the doctor for my silly sprained knee, bye! Omg, my filling just broke! Heading to the dentist.) I have no idea how I’m going to duck out early with just “an appointment” as an excuse. My boss, HR, and the office manager are all pretty upfront about saying “are you interviewing somewhere else?”

    Hey, maybe if they did have an inkling, I’d get a raise…

    1. Dawn*

      I have no idea how I’m going to duck out early with just “an appointment” as an excuse.

      “Oh my gosh that Chipotle I had for lunch is just going straight through me! Bye!” ;)

    2. Jennifer*

      “I just had a plumbing disaster at my house.”
      “Someone in my family is sick.”

    3. Laura*

      Just say you have an important appointment. They don’t need to know any more than that. DO NOT tell them you’re interviewing unless you’re 100% sure your job is safe.

      1. Marvel*

        Seconded. If they ask what the appointment’s for, a simple “just some personal things” usually gets people off your back.

    4. Anon Moose*

      “A personal appointment” let’s people know you don’t want to talk about it. They could think interview, they could think family stuff, they could think a dr. appointment you don’t want to specify what it’s for(like an ob if you’re a woman) -that’s what I’ve implied if I get pushback.

    5. HappyHedgie*

      You could always say you have an appointment at the bank. Seems benign yet, plausible and you probably won’t get many follow-up questions. But, if you do just oh nothing important just renewing my mortgage/discussing some investments/etc. whatever should take care of it. I’ve done it before and no one has suspected. Good luck. :)

    6. Windchime*

      –Cat needs to go to the vet
      –You have a migraine
      –The plumber/electrician is coming by to look at the dishwasher/electrical panel
      –personal doctor’s appointment (like, for something super private)

  51. SophieChotek*

    Any people here working in PR/Marketing? [USA]

    [My apologies if this is too specific for AAM and not general enough for this forum.]

    My company makes, well, let’s say Luxury Chocolate Teapots that most “average” people probably would say are too expensive when they could just by Cheap(er) Chocolate Teapots that work just as well.

    The biggest mandate from my bosses has become to get PR in the media for my company’s products. [Not paid advertisement, they want mentions like in say, the “editor’s pick” or to be in a line-up up “100 best Luxury Gift Suggestions” or “10 Essentials for Your Kitchen”, or of course they’d love an entire feature devoted to them.]

    (I admit I don’t have a background at all in PR/Marketing; it sort of suddenly got added to the job during my training. And no one else in the company has experience in PR/Marketing either.)

    I’ve read blogs, books, articles on how to try to get PR — from press release, product pitches, following journalists on twitter (haven’t gotten very far with that, not even sure who I should follow since I don’t see many people writing about Luxury Chocolate Teapots), trying to pitch to the media’s editorial calendar.

    Any good advice? Or how could I get a mentor (since I don’t think my company is willing to pay an actual PR company.)

    1. Manders*

      I’m in legal marketing. I don’t get to handle PR myself, but my boss is absolutely killer at it. The trick, as I understand it, is to develop genuine relationships with people in the media over time rather than blasting out a generic press release. Some things to think about:
      * Is your product solving a need that’s related to a newsworthy topic?
      * Is it something people will want seasonally, or all the time?
      * Is it something that people would give as a gift for Christmas, weddings, etc?
      * Is it something quirky or unusual that people on, say, Reddit or Pinterest would get interested in and spread the word about?
      * Is there a group of bloggers who cares deeply about this sort of product who would review a sample or a free item?
      * Do you have tons of appealing photographs of your product as it fits into people’s lifestyles? Photos that could be used by a more generic lifestyle/cooking writer?

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks for your suggestions Manders. I agree that your point about forming genuine relationships with Media is the most important factor. (I am a bit unsure how to proceed there.) I’ve often heard suggestions–help media out, even if it does not support your product, because then they will be more likely to help you later. I agree. But I guess so far I haven’t seen any opportunities on how I could support media (unrelated to my product.) But I agree–and thanks for the reminder.

        As to other suggestions–I haven’t found any blogs about Luxury Chocolate Teapots or the ones I found already reviewed our Teapot–I definitely pitch/try to see how Luxury Teapots could be good for gifts (like wedding or housewarming)…Thanks again! I appreciate it.

        Mainly I feel like there’s not much demand or interest for Luxury Chocolate Teapots so I’m sort of in a losing battle before I start with unrealistic expectations from my managers, but then because I don’t have a PR/Marketing background, I wonder if I’m just going about it all wrong.

        1. Manders*

          Oof, yeah, I think in your case it might be time to do some research on whether your boss’s expectations are actually reasonable here. Have you been given a marketing budget to work with? Is your boss giving you guidance about what’s out there for this industry? If someone’s only marketing plan is “get free publicity,” that’s not a great sign, especially if there’s nothing particularly innovative or quirky or newsworthy about your product as opposed to competitors’ products.

          1. SophieChotek*

            I personally feel like my head bosses expectation is unrealistic, but then I wonder if I just say that to myself to make myself feel better because I haven’t been able to get them any PR (“earned media”) in the past year of trying. (Hope that makes sense.)

            (As far as I can tell, they haven’t had any “earned media” for several years, which is why they are so desperate.) They have had an exclusive feature in trade publication (last year?), but that’s not “good enough”. (I didn’t get that one for them; before I started.)

            Thanks again.

    2. Pwyll*

      I worked at a PR firm, but I’m not a PR person. That said, a few things I picked up from my time:
      1. Your bosses are looking for what the industry calls “earned media”. Might be helpful in your google searches.
      2. Manders is 100% correct that niche PR is really a relationship game. You may want to pitch the idea to your bosses to hire a one-off PR firm to introduce you to the editorial boards of a few publications to get your foot in the door. There are some firms who will do that for fairly low prices.
      3. Figure out the publications that your bosses really want to be in, then do a search for their editorial calendars (if they’re magazines or trade publications). Make sure you’re pitching your product in advance of an appropriate theme for your product (they’ll be listed)
      4. For newspapers and general media, it’s all about timing. Read the paper every day, and if there appear to be a string of stories on a topic that is related to your product, reach out to the reporter with a BRIEF e-mail “Read your story on x, we provide y which is related to x in this way, would love to talk to you about it for a future story on x. Thanks for your time.”
      5. Fax your press releases. Yes, really. It’s silly and ancient, but in smaller markets it just works.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thank you Manders and Pwyll.

        I like the one-off PR firm. Might be something my b0ss might consider. (Then again, maybe not, I have no marketing budget. I have to ask for every single thing I want piece by piece and get approval.)

        Thanks again.

  52. Lou*

    I’m ready to quit my job, but am bored of interviewing. Maybe I’m demoralized because the place I thought I really, really wanted to work (ever since I graduated from college) turned out to be incredibly stuffy and not at all a right fit. Don’t get me wrong, it’s nice to find this sort of thing out during the interview process. Now I’m back to square one, trying to weigh my options. I had a phone interview for a decent position yesterday, but I’m not getting my hopes up. I feel like I’m a high achieving employee, a feeling which is backed by my positive performance reviews. I just don’t think I have the right connections. Our intern who just completed her master’s degree is a shoe-in for a director position here that was vacated at the beginning of the year. Our manager is going about placing her in that position in such a convoluted and secretive way. There’s a general consensus that she is not qualified for the position – she has never worked in this particular area and her studies were not focused in it. Given the manager’s uniquely close relationship with her, we (as in the rest of the office) suspects that it is nepotism brought on by his attraction to her. Yes, yes, I know we shouldn’t be gossiping about these things. The dynamics are difficult to ignore. Borderline inappropriate.

    In any case, the former director recommended me for the role, since I was the only one who worked with her on the various projects. I don’t feel prepared to direct anything at this point in my career, not that I’ve been asked to by our manager. I think he may feel some kind of way about considering me for higher positions because I didn’t jump at the opportunity to fill a previously vacated position. (It had nothing to do with my interests!!) Anyway, all of this rambling is to say that I need to get out of this place and it needs to happen quickly. I’m just biding my time.

  53. Bekx*

    So there’s a glassdoor war at my former company.

    When I left 2 years ago, there were two extremely negative (but extremely honest) reviews written on glassdoor. I added my negative review, and 2 more people added theirs throughout the past 2 years. Well, the owner’s son finally must have stumbled upon them, because he wrote a gross 5* review about how “this job isn’t for people who want to be lazy” or “college kids who think they can just skate by are not welcome” “we work hard and play hard”. Yeah, okay. You also sexually harassed me at a conference because I was too young and naive to know better, pig.

    He’s recruited 2 more people to write positive reviews, and it’s just sick. He’s probably paying them. They are SO obviously fake in my mind, but I can see new people getting confused.

    This workplace is horrible. I would come home sick to my stomach day and night. It makes me so angry that they are posting fake positive reviews to try to offset the 4 other negative ones. I warned the person who replaced me about the environment, and 2 months later she called me and said she wished she had taken my advice to heart, that she was miserable and was almost hospitalized for a panic attack. It’s not my business really, anymore, but it makes me sad that more people could go through what I did.

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Is this the same company from EvilHRLAdy?

      Honestly if I saw a bunch of negative reviews, and then a 5-star reviewing saying not for lazy college kids! I would steer clear and assume there are some gross generational discrimination as well as probably an atrocious work-life balance.

        2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          Just posted the link. It will pop once it’s out of moderation.

          Yeah. The company “Above the Law” is unsuccessfully suing Glassdoor to get the names. All the while ranting about lazy college kids who are going to “get theres”.

          It’s hilarious to watch the anger spiral.

          1. Pwyll*

            Above the Law is actually a legal blog that reported the dispute: the employer suing for the names is a law firm called Layfield & Barrett.

            1. Anon Moose*

              I doubt it would be that- then they wouldn’t be complaining about college kids but law school kids.

      2. One of the Annes*

        To me, a “no lazy people need apply” statement from an employer in a glassdoor review is the equivalent of “no fat chicks” in a dating site profile. It would totally turn me off.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      If it helps, usually it’s easy to tell the tell negative reviews from the fake positive ones. Usually the real negative reviews have specifics (that agree with each other), and it’s obvious when a positive review is just being posted to slam the negative review(er)s. That in itself is enough to indicate trouble to a savvy reader.

    3. Anoners*

      Oh man. A horrible company I used to work for does this too (like HORRRRIBLEEE company – racist, misogynistic, screaming fits, etc.). You’ll see a slew of negative reviews, and then 6 super positive ones about how “It’s a stressful job, but it’s so rewarding!!” Clearly written by the same person. Like, maybe put that time into making your organization not so terrible instead of having to create fake reviews every few months…

      1. Bekx*

        YES! That’s what my old supervisor (who kisses the floor the owner walks on) said in his positive review. “It’s so rewarding!” “They let me go home early for my sick daughter”. Ughhhh.

    4. Jack the Treacle Eater*

      If it helps, “this job isn’t for people who want to be lazy” “college kids who think they can just skate by are not welcome” “we work hard and play hard” are almost certainly dead giveaways that the reviews are fake and posted by owners or senior management.

      1. Bekx*

        I actually flagged it on Glassdoor’s website and said that this was the owner’s son (he’s the only one with that job title) and trying to skew the review. Glassdoor said they don’t remove reviews unless they can prove they are fake, so oh well on that.

        I probably just shouldn’t care and move on, but I still have friends that work there and they are still miserable and depressed and I don’t want another 22 year old being taken advantage like I was.

        1. F.*

          Glassdoor sucks! The owner of the company where I work pretended to be an employee and wrote a sycophantic, glowing review of himself after having a harsh but truthful review by a (former) actual employee removed. Other employees and I complained to Glassdoor, but they said the owner had a right to review his own company. I protested that he did it under a false premise by pretending to be an employee, but they refused to take it down anyway. Take anything written there with a very large grain of salt.

      2. Manders*

        Yes, that’s such an obvious red flag that anyone savvy enough to be checking Glassdoor should be able to spot it. I understand why you’d want to protect other young people, but if they’re already checking Glassdoor then they’re probably smart enough to use that information.

      3. Kelly L.*

        Oh, hell yes. And anytime a job is something mundane but they make it sound like the Marines. On steroids. “Only a few great people can do this job.” “If you can’t cut it here, you’re a weakling.”

    5. Laura*

      I am so sorry you went through that. I felt that way about my first job– didn’t read the reviews until I’d accepted the offer. #regrets

    6. Pipette*

      At least if you have some life experience, it’s easy to tell when a company is dong a fake positive review campaign. As someone else mentioned, some classic tells are that the negative reviews address fairly specific issues, and that the fake positive ones are more general and reuse similar expressions.

      One of my old jobs are doing this. They are somewhat in the business of online company presence management, so they are a weeeee bit more subtle about it. They drop one or two positive reviews per month (this is a 5000+ employee company) and some of them are 4 star, but without fail they say something about how the company has had some difficulties in the past couple of years (in order to acknowledge the negative ones, clever huh?), but with the recent reorganisations things have turned out for the better, and they have a real optimistic outlook about the future.

      It’s just that such fake reviews have been posted for over five years now. So the impression you get is of a company that goes through constant reorganisations which they never get right. Which is, ironically, a fairly correct impression.

  54. adulting?*

    So my partner is moving in with me this weekend(!) Two questions:

    1) How much more should we pay in rent for our room to be fair to the other three people in the house? I have no concept of how to do this. The rents for other rooms range are $600, $650, and $775, and my room’s rent is $625. We were thinking of paying $90 more so everyone else gets $30 off of their rent, but one roommate would prefer we pay $150 more, so that her rent is $550. I get that she wants to keep her housing costs low, and my partner and I could pay that rent, but also that would mean we’d be paying $775 for the second smallest room in the house. What’s fair? I just have no point of reference for this.

    2) Besides cleaning the house, what are other things I should do to prepare for someone moving in? Things you wish you knew before doing so? (We’ve lived together for a summer before, but this is the first time living together as Almost Real Adults).

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I’m really analytical so ….

      I would take the total square footage of all shared space (bathrooms, kitchen, living room etc) and divide it evenly for each person. Let’s say that equates to 30 Square Feet each.

      I would then take the bedrooms and apply that square footage to everyone. So it would be something like:
      Room A: 30 + 10 = 40 sq ft.
      Room B: 30 + 15 = 45 sq ft.
      Room C: 30 + 30 + 10 = 70 sq ft.

      Room C is shared, so it gets a larger portion of the cost for shared space. Then I split the rent by those square foot allotments.

    2. Ell*

      1) Paying $90 more seems totally fair. You’re sharing a teeny space together!! If you were getting an extra bedroom or an additional bathroom or something more might make sense. But if you’re sharing a room, no reason to pay that much more.

      2) Get rid of duplicate stuff. It was /so/ hard for my boyfriend and I to get rid of dishes/bathroom stuff we didn’t need anymore. But we ran out of space so quickly, and there was just not reason to have three wine corks and 18 mugs. Don’t be afraid to purge.

    3. Applesauced*

      1) Rent – I think $30 off everyone else’s rent is fair, they suddenly have a 4th (5th?) roommate they didn’t originally sign up for, but your room didn’t get any bigger or better.
      Utilities – divided by PERSON, not by room

      2) talk to your roommates and your SO about what they expect! Make a cleaning schedule, a shower/morning bathroom schedule, a general list of rules and expectations (if you guys want a couples movie night, now no one else can use the living room – how often is everyone else ok with that? You have two people in one room, so it’s likely one of them will be in common space more often to get some space time – what are people’s thoughts on that, are there hours they need quiet, what about extra guests coming over?)

      A couple can easily dominate an apartment and make the others feel excluded, so be mindful that it’s not Couple + roommates, it’s just a bunch of roommates, some of whom date. Try to limit the PDA in common spaces.
      If it’s financially possible, I’d strongly recommend finding your own place with your SO once the lease is up. Until then, good luck!

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        I agree with #1 here. I don’t think it makes sense to raise your rent at all since you’re not getting more space, but if it’s being done to appease the roommates, I think the amount you’ve suggested is more than fair. Where you should really be kicking in more is the utilities, as those will probably directly change with the addition of a person.

    4. Manders*

      I shared a room with my partner in an apartment with a third roommate. I think treating rent as something that just covers your room is a little short-sighted–what you’re actually renting is the room + access to all the shared common spaces. I would have been annoyed if my roommate tried to move someone else in and thought an extra $90 per month was enough to compensate for someone else using the bathroom, kitchen, living room, etc. Both bedrooms were small relative to the size of the house–we spent most of our time and kept most of our stuff in the shared space, so that’s what most of our rent was covering.

      1. adulting?*

        I realized right after I posted that I mixed up which open thread this was – sorry about that!

    6. CAA*

      There are some online tools for this. My daughter and her friends used splitwise.com. You enter things like the total rent, bedrooms’ dimensions, whether the bathroom is private or shared for each, how big is the common area, etc, and it spits out the rent each person should pay to achieve maximum fairness. You could try putting your info in and use the output as a starting point. Maybe having some hard data will change the mind of the roommate who wants much cheaper rent, or maybe it’ll change yours mind.

    7. Joanna*

      No idea about number one, but a few things that come to mind for number two:
      – If they’re bringing furniture or large possessions, work out where those things are going to before they arrive so they aren’t awkwardly taking up space in shared areas.
      – Write down any passwords for wifi, security systems they need to know. Contact details for others in the house is probably a good idea too.
      – Brainstorm any quirks about your household arrangements that might not immediately obvious to your partner (eg. Sally really hates it when other people use her frypans, you have to push the fridge door extra hard to get it to stay closed, Morgan starts work extra early on tuesdays so we have to be really quiet on Monday nights)

    8. Jack the treacle eater*

      Presumably your rent contains an amount for the room rent, an amount for common areas, and an amount for property taxes, utilities, services etc?

      Presumably the amount for the room is relative to the room size and desirability, as it’s different from room to room?

      If so, why pay anything extra for the room at all? The room didn’t suddenly change, you haven’t got more space. The size and desirability are the same as they’ve alwys been relative to the other rooms. However the amount for common areas etc. should be pro rata’d to reflect the fact there’s an extra person using / contributing to them, so an amount that was divided by four should be divided by five, with you as a couple paying 2/5 ths

  55. Applesauced*

    I’m looking for advice on keeping busy at work. Things are slow today and most of next week my direct supervisor and his supervisor are BOTH out of the office.
    I’ve asked about what I should focus on, what they want to see when they get back…. and it’s just not enough work to keep myself occupied.
    What do you do during slow times? How have you asked for more work when your week looks light?

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I don’t usually ask for more work, but just try to keep some side projects I can always work on – whether it’s professional development or just projects that aren’t high priority but I can chip away at them when things are slow.

      But sometimes things get SO slow and I’m so bored, but I generally don’t ask for more work because anything I’m offered is stuff I’m not good at or is busy work.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Teach yourself something new!
      Review a report or project you completed and determine how you can make it more efficient.
      Think of the top 5 things that make your job challenging, how can you minimize these?
      Practice learning a new skill that you can use for work.

    3. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I offer to help out others if they are busy. If there is someone else who has some knowledge that I don’t (like how to run/analyze a particular report), I might ask them to teach me and then I can spend some time practicing.

      At my old company, they had some personal development classes online, I would do a couple of those (about an hour each) on slow days.

      I also go through files (physical or on my computer) and get rid of anything old/outdated. If there are forms that need to be updated, I’ll do that. Sometimes I’ll even make how-to documents about aspects of my job.

    4. Joanna*

      Slow times can be a really good chance to get some of the boring organisation and admin tasks you might not normally be a priority up to date. This could be things like clearing out an unnecessary files on your computer or printed paperwork, organising your reference materials and making sure your professional memberships and employment papers are all up to date. If your industry has news/professional development publications you should be reading but usually don’t, it might be a good chance to get caught up on those.

    5. Dot Warner*

      Read journals/newsletters pertinent to my field.
      Do continuing education (if I’m not too tired – I work nights).
      Read AAM. :)

  56. Mona Lisa*

    In the vein of a few questions we’ve had here recently regarding past behavior, I’m curious how other people would have handled this situation.

    I have an Amazon Prime account that I personally pay for. At my first job, I sometimes used it to order supplies we needed because I could get the items in more quickly and save my department some money. I was well-compensated in that entry level position and really liked the department for which I worked. I was also still on a student trial so I didn’t have to pay the annual fee.

    At my last job (the awful non-profit where I was paid well below market rate), I mentioned at one point that I had a Prime account that I paid for. (The student trial had expired.) Within the next week, the property manager approached me to talk about using my account to ship in some supplies she wanted. I told her I’d be comfortable doing it once, but if it was going to become a regular need, I would want to be either partially or fully reimbursed for the annual fee. She got very huffy and short with me and said she’d figure something else out instead.

    Would you have done something similar, or would you have allowed the second company to use your personal account for company purchases? Does it make a difference if your employer is compensating you fairly and treating you well?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t have even mentioned my personal Prime account at all. The company or organization should absolutely pay for Prime if it wants Prime shipping.

      1. Mona Lisa*

        At the second location, I didn’t bring up the account as an option for shipping company items. One of my co-workers mentioned she was thinking of getting it for personal use, and I mentioned that I really liked the service because of X, Y, Z reasons. The property manager just happened to overhear this conversation and put her request forward.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I told her I’d be comfortable doing it once, but if it was going to become a regular need, I would want to be either partially or fully reimbursed for the annual fee. She got very huffy and short with me and said she’d figure something else out instead.

          In that case, though, I wouldn’t have even volunteered to do it once. I would have just said the company should pay for it. And, yes, she probably would still have gotten huffy and said she’d figure something else out instead.

          1. Mona Lisa*

            I understand your meaning now. Yes, you’re probably right that she still would have been perturbed. We had very different styles of working and personalities, and I think she would have been irritated by anything I did that wasn’t complete acquiescence. It was an odd culture, and we were definitely all expected to sacrifice a lot for the sake of the mission, which is why I put forward that first offer but with the caveat. I think I was caught off guard by her approaching me about it at all so I’m glad I had the presence of mind to not just agree!

    2. Ell*

      I personally think you were right on target. Shipping some stuff occasionally on your prime account seems reasonable, but basically making it a company account? At that point they’re benefitting from it as a part of regular business, they should pay for it, or at least contribute to it. It’s not like it’s a thousand dollar expense either.
      I don’t think it matters what they’re compensating you, either, although if you’re getting paid less than your work is worth it would probably just be a compounding frustration.

    3. MAB*

      Anything I purchase for the company I work for, gets paid back. That includes all shipping and handling fees. If they want to regularly use a prime account, they should register for one. And it doesn’t matter my level of pay. I could be paid minimum wage hourly or $100k per year.

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      Even if the employer is treating me well, I wouldn’t use personal accounts for business stuff. The business should budget for business costs, and it can actually be a disservice to prevent the business from knowing its actual cost-of-business.

      I think you handled the issue 100% fine.

      1. Mona Lisa*

        That’s a fair point. The first employer was my first job, and looking back on it, I would probably have just asked for the money to set up their own account since we had a surplus that had to be used up, lest the university reduce our budget. It would also have allowed them to review past purchases if they wanted to re-order something in the future. At the time, however, it seemed so easy to me to just use the free account I already had from being a student at the institution. Live and learn!

    5. Ad Astra*

      There’s a big difference (in my mind) between electing to use your personal Prime membership to buy supplies that will benefit you at work and using your personal Prime membership to buy supplies for co-workers or the whole department or whatever. Your work supplies is still your stuff; special pens for Kathy in accounting is not.

      Besides, $100 is a decent chunk of change for an individual and really not much money for a company, even a nonprofit.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      nope, nope, nope. Did I mention never?

      I will help out with many things at work that I know some people would tell me I am crazy. But anything where my money gets mixed with the employer’s money, no how, no way, not ever. No account sharing for any reason, no use of my credit card or checks.

      What I like about this plan is that it removes any ambiguity from a situation. I have my go-to answer in place already.

      If you have a very nice, likable employer there are many ways that you can thank them for their kindness and for providing you with a decent workplace and those ways do not include accessing your personal accounts for any reason.

      I made the mistake of paying for a medical test. I did not receive reimbursement for nine months. And TPTB thought that was very funny. Then I told them that I did not make enough money to carry them on my books for nine months and if they wanted me to have these periodic tests then they needed to front the money. Yeah, so after that I developed strong feelings about using my own stuff for my job.
      I will help individuals at a job. For example, if someone wanted an old knitting pattern. I would bring in books for them to look at and copy. I am willing to do little things that are more of a personal help than a business help.

  57. Mallows*

    I am terribly, terribly antsy to move from my current city – in a “OMG this is the only life I have” sort of way. I would like to do this within a year and I think that is realistic. My question: I am working toward getting a BS, and company does tuition reimbursement ($5k max per year). As I understand it, this comes out of the local area’s pocket and not corporate’s. Therefore I feel a little odd about taking money from my local department and then moving immediately after I achieve my goal. If it matters, I do feel valued in my department and i work hard for them and pretty much am supported in any goals I set for myself.

    am I overthinking the tuition thing?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is there any kind of spoken or written contract that says you must stay X years after you complete your B.S.? Not saying that contract would necessarily be legally binding, but you would be a little scummy for violating the contract.

      If you have no contract, though, it’s just the cost of doing business—some people stay, and some people leave.

      1. Mallows*

        I should clarify – I want to move within the company, not leave it. Let’s say I live in Maine – the Maine profit center of my company pays my tuition. Is it ok to leave Maine and move to California? The only agreement that exists is at the overall corporate level and so no violation there.

        1. E*

          I think you’d be fine, your education will still benefit the overall company. And honestly I bet they expect employees who finish their education to move up and around in the company.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            And honestly I bet they expect employees who finish their education to move up and around in the company.

            On a corporate level at my current employer they absolutely do; however, it varies by division how this actually plays out and is perceived. Some managers are happy to see their former employees gain more knowledge and then move to another business unit if the one they manage doesn’t have opportunities for the employee to move up while others take it very personally if you try to do it.

    2. Jadelyn*

      Check your company’s policy – our org has a tuition reimbursement benefit, but if you leave you have to pay the organization back for any reimbursement you got in the 12 months prior to your departure.

      As far as it being ethical or whatever, I’d suggest setting your departure at 1 yr past completion of your degree if you want to feel like you can leave on good terms and have not taken undue advantage of anyone. I feel like that’s a reasonable amount of time.

  58. notfunny.*

    Can we talk about part time work and balancing with part-time school? Any tips or suggestions about the transition, staying organized or things to think about? I’ve worked full time for about 8 years but I am going back to school, part time, and am staying (hopefully) in my same office to keep working/take advantage of an amazing tuition benefit.
    I’ll be working on another project which is new to me and will hopefully be able to train the replacement for my current role, but other than planning ahead and being very communicative, what else can I do make my boss/coworkers/colleagues lives easier as well as my own?!

    1. Red*

      Calendar the bejesus out of things, haha. Put your school obligations on your work calendar (as private). For your own reference, sit down at the beginning of each semester and put every deadline you can possibly think of, both for your schoolwork/classes and your work projects, on a master calendar (I put mine in excel and sort it by date, then highlight each line as the day passes). Keep it scrupulously up to date.

      Some people will tell you that working and going to school is crazy crazy hard. Other people (hi!) will tell you that it’s dirt easy. But it’s just dependent on so many factors, including your personality, your school program, your work. Right now I’m in grad school full time, work full-time managing a team of teapot painters, and have a side job another 10-12 hours a week painting, uh, sugar bowls. But my classes are structured to work with full-time workers — a lot of the coursework is online and through streaming lectures, with once-monthly in person meetings, and both jobs (for the same organization) are completely 100% work from home with flexible scheduling. So really it depends a lot on your situation — don’t let people psych you out!

      Plan ahead, communicate, and ask for help when you think you need it, not when you’re already floundering.

    2. The Rat-Catcher*

      I don’t know how much control you have over the structure of your schedule, but what helped me a lot mentally was having “school days” and “work days.” I had classes MWF and worked T/Th. I felt significantly less frazzled when I was able to compartmentalize and not worry about homework at the same time as I was worried about answering my work emails, or whatever.

    3. KR*

      Have a day or afternoon set aside to work on homework and schedule in time during the day to be on campus and get tutoring/meet with professors/do group projects. If you don’t use it one week it’ll just be extra time to do homework. Know when you do homework best and schedule homework time then (morning, night, after work or before work). Be firm about your time commitments and don’t forget to get plenty of sleep.

  59. Ready for a Change*

    I’m quitting my job in the next three weeks with nothing official lined up. I’m excited and terrified.

    The background is I’ve worked for a terrible boss for way too long and in the past two months (after one of my coworkers quit to take a job two levels above her at another organization), accusing me of being disrespectful, manipulative, telling me how bad a decision I made made our team look (it didn’t)–none of which are true–and I’m just tired of being miserable all the time.

    The thing where this could work out well, though, is I’ve been in talks with an org since February about coming on board with them in late summer/early fall. It’s a company I’m incredibly passionate about, has some amazing perks, great opportunity to grow out the part of the org they want me in–essentially, my dream job (though I know enough from reading this site that there’s no such thing, so I’m not going into it with rose-colored glasses). I met with the woman whose role I’d be taking on this week and she said when my name came up a few months ago, neither she nor the org’s president could think of anyone else they wanted for this position. That made me feel amazing. But nothing is official yet.

    My current team is already down two staff members (half our team), so me leaving will be a significant. Ideally I’d like to have my last day be July 4 so I can get benefits for July and get paid out for the vacation I have saved up, but I’m not sure if I should wait and just give 2 weeks or attempt to be kind and say I can give a month’s notice. It would be lovely to take all of July off and start the new gig in August.

    Either way, this is going to be a really interesting summer.

    1. Anon Moose*

      I really really think you should wait until it’s official. Or at least make sure you have back up savings in case the next job takes longer or falls through completely. And don’t think of tmbenefits as a given- make sure you check on the policies and be prepared to fight for them.

  60. asteramella*

    My (dysfunctional) company used to have hour-long, company-wide conference calls EVERY weekday morning. Attendance was taken and you could be scolded for not being on the call, even if you had a conflicting client meeting, etc. The call was run by a member of the sales team and would often devolve into an hour-long conversation among the sales people. It was totally irrelevant to my department and I hated it. We also were not allowed to ALL call in from our desks (something about the fees for the dial-ins being too high) so we would have to cram into conference rooms and were forbidden from doing any other work, checking email etc during the call. It was basically garbage hell.

    Then the conference call got taken over by a different executive. She reduced it to twice a week and often canceled it if there weren’t any specific issues to address. Yay!! This went on for about a year.

    This morning I get an email… Original executive has taken over again and conference calls are back to daily. :( Not only is attendance taken but if you’re not able to be on the call, you have to email the executive’s EA with an excuse. (Sick people who don’t have email access at home are going to have to get their managers to email the EA I guess?) There will be pop quizzes and surprise questions to test who’s paying attention. If you’re not on the call and don’t email the EA you will be publicly shamed for “not committing to the company.”

    I’m dreading spending 1/8 of my working time listening to people argue about issues that have nothing to do with my job or department… While being expected to produce just as much as before. I feel like we’re being treated like middle school kids and I’m already so resentful at this phenomenal waste of so many people’s time :(((

    I was job-hunting for a few months but tapered off when I felt things at my company were getting better. But I’m not exaggerating when I say this one issue has pushed me to start hunting again! It’s too demoralizing!

    1. Adam V*

      Can your boss push back and say “none of the employees on my team are getting enough out of this meeting to be worth taking up such a large portion of their working day”?

      1. E*

        Alternatively, can your boss push back and suggest that a representative for your department attend and share the meeting overview with the department as needed? Then maybe your dept can rotate participants so that no one person has to be on the call daily.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Right? Did this person used to be a kindergarten teacher? Grown adults do not need Circle Time every morning.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          These people must know the dunce cap people. It’s the same idea treating employees like children and public punishment.

    1. asteramella*

      Nope, food service/retail/health care/other jobs that don’t keep bankers’ hours will be in. And while many offices close, many others don’t.

      1. Mona Lisa*

        This. My office at the university will be closed, but I had to request off at my retail job since I’ll be out of town. The only two days that my retail job has as designated holidays anymore are Christmas Day and Easter, which coincide with the mall’s official hours. If we’re not open when the mall is (including 6:00 PM on Thanksgiving), then the store is fined a certain amount of money for being closed.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Probably a mall or shopping center. It could be in their contract with the mall/shopping center owners that they will keep their stores open when other stores are open. So this is the dates and times the property owners chose to set into their contracts. Failure to open with the rest of the stores as agreed leads to fines being assessed for not following the contract.

          2. Mona Lisa*

            Yes, Not So NewReader has it correct. The contract the store has with the shopping center stipulates that we must be open any time that the mall is, or the company is required to pay a fine. This has become contentious in some situations such as last winter. We had a major snow storm, and I was working my closing shift at the mall. Many of the stores made the decision to shutter early, and mall security came through and took down the names of all of the ones that did. Much as my employer wanted to let us go, the GM didn’t feel comfortable taking on the fine. The mall officially closed 20 minutes before closing time even though the place had been completely dead for 2 hours, and my store had wasted all of that payroll to keep us there so the store could be “open.”

    3. Manders*

      I’ve always had it off, even in an office that was stingy about holidays (my boss wouldn’t even close the office for Veterans Day… and he was a veteran). I think it’s pretty common for restaurants, retail, and anything that’s considered an essential service to stay open though.

    4. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      It really varies. A lot of places now do “Lump PTO” so you don’t really have holiday’s anymore. Sure, they may designate that “Memorial Day is a Holiday” but that does not mean the office is closed and you still have to use your personal PTO bank if you want to take it off.

      I pretty much feel like I do not get Holidays and I have never worked at a company that actually has Holidays.

    5. Ell*

      Depends. I do this year, but at my last job it was technically a “paid holiday” that I was encouraged NOT to take. I took it anyways because I was ridiculously overworked but I took a lot of flak for it.

    6. Kristine*

      I have Memorial Day off and work for a company that doesn’t give many holidays (Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Year’s, Memorial Day, July 4th, and Labor Day are all we get).

      The startup I worked at before this did not give Memorial Day off, though. The office technically never closed, though if you took off Christmas they were usually ok with it. But they didn’t like if you took off a “non-traditional” holiday like Memorial or Labor Day.

    7. afiendishthingy*

      I do, technically, but have some looming deadlines and will most likely end up in the office anyway. On that note, I should stop looking at this thread for a bit.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      We do; mostly office stuff and anything government will have it off. I took extra days because I’m trying to burn PTO before year-end or I’ll lose it. We can only roll over so much and I have more than that because I was too broke to go anywhere cool this year.

    9. Teapot Project Coordinator*

      Not everyone.
      I wouldn’t say this is universal, but most office employees that I know have the day off(my husband works for a bank, so he always gets holidays off, and I work in an office), most employed in service/retail(grocery, fast food, retail shops) seem to work on Memorial Day(or some part of the holiday weekend)

    10. Ad Astra*

      I guess the way I’d put it is that pretty much everyone who has holidays off in general has Memorial Day off. The standard holidays here are Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day, and the rest vary between offices, companies and functions. For instance, bank and government employees are likely to have Veterans Day off, but someone in advertising probably works that day.

      Of course, people who don’t get holidays off (service industry, news media, police/firefighters/a lot of healthcare workers) will still work.

    11. SophieChotek*

      I do. But I have to admit I’m grouchy because distant family member I barely know planned bridal shower for her daughter this weekend so I have go out-of-town for that and I was so looking forward to a much-needed 3 day weekend since this is the time off I’ve had since Christmas/New Year’s. I guess sometimes family obligations trump other personal desires.

      1. I'm a Little Teapot*

        Eh, there’s really no obligation to go to a bridal shower for someone you hardly know, family or otherwise. If you don’t want to go, explain that it’s not in your budget or you have other plans (even if those other plans are Netflix and takeout) and skip it with a clean conscience.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Thanks–I wish I could. But I already committed–or my mother did it for me. I think it’s my mother’s disapproval I’d be more concerned about that distant cousin I haven’t seen in 15 years and will see 2x this summer (bridal shower tomorrow, wedding later this summer)…

          Anyway, she said “this side” of the family must be represented…

          Good comment…(otherwise, yeah, I’d totally pull the “I have to work this weekend”…which is true…rushing back to get that shift in…)

    12. Hlyssande*

      My company does! But even if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be in the office because the office park is essentially shut down. You can still access the building with the swipe card, but they aren’t providing A/C, so…

    13. Menacia*

      Yes, my company is closed, and since today is my b-day, I opted to make it a FOUR day weekend!!!!!!!!! Yay for me!

    14. Liane*

      As others have said, many job types don’t get it off. The company I work at (through a temp agency) gives us the day off & we temps DO get the holiday paid, which is often not the case for US temp positions. However, the work week before Memorial Day is limited production lines open, plus on Saturday (normally a regular company work day) no lines are open, just shipping/maintenance/sanitization, and to get paid for any of those days you aren’t scheduled, you need to use vacation time, which I don’t have. There is a similar setup for Christmas/New Years week and July 4th.

      1. Liane*

        Meant to add, the retail jobs I had and my kids now have give you holiday pay plus pay for any hours you work on those holidays. (My) OldJob gave you holiday pay based on the average hours/day you were scheduled for; for me, since I was working 8hrs per day 5 days/wk, this meant I in effect got double time for holidays.
        My kids are parttimers at BigGrocer, which has a union. I can’t recall the specifics of what they told me, but I am pretty sure they are getting a better deal on holiday pay.

    15. Dot Warner*

      Nope. I work at a hospital and my department has 24/7 coverage, so at work I shall be!

    17. automotive engineer*

      I work for a US company but I’m temporarily working in Canada so all my friends and family get the day off but I have to work (also working Saturday and Sunday) :(

  62. Manders*

    I should be all fired up about the upcoming three-day weekend, but right now I’m tired and cranky. A few months ago, someone moved into the apartment next to mine, and he snores. It’s really, really loud–so loud that he can wake my boyfriend up through ear plugs and a blaring white noise machine, and my boyfriend thrashes around when he wakes up, so that wakes me up. I’ve been getting about 30 minutes to an hour less sleep than I need too often.

    Any tips on staying focused at work on those days when you’re tired and easily distractable? Also, has anyone ever successfully soundproofed a wall in a rental apartment (so I can’t build anything additional onto the wall, but I could probably create some kind of franken-foam sound barrier)? I’m fantasizing about moving, but frankly, all the affordable buildings in my area are so old or shoddily built that I can’t guarantee I won’t have the same problem at the next place.

    1. Ell*

      Oi that’s terrible. I had a large tapestry up at my old place that we only realized was sound-proofing things when we took it down and could suddenly hear conversations in the apt. next door.

      If you’re in a building I would consider letting the apartment management know, or your landlord if you’re not. If you’re the squeaky wheel in situations like these I often find that landlords will speak to folks on your behalf to make you shut up. It’s possible they can ask him to move his bed or something like that.

      As for staying focused, are you allowed to have standing desks? Standing keeps me awake when I’d otherwise be drifting.

      1. Manders*

        I don’t have a standing desk, although on some days when I know it’s going to be really bad I volunteer to do something physical like clean out the back room. Building management is well-intentioned but kind of neglectful–it’s a 100 year old building and it seems like there’s always something higher on the manager’s priority list. I’ve had a cracked window for about 6 months now that he says he won’t fix unless it shatters. He’s good about responding to noise complaints during quiet hours, but, well, this isn’t quite the same as telling someone to turn down their music.

        I have an elaborate plan involving a 4-poster bed frame with thick curtains and nailing thick foam, if I can find it at Home Depot, to the offending wall. What was your tapestry made out of? I might have to find something to hang over the foam.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’d try taking some magnesium to help sleep better/deeper.If you go this route, try it on the weekend first so you can get a feel for how the magnesium works.
      There is a foam board insulation you can get it at Lowe’s or Home Depot. It’s a bit spendy. I had insulation added inside my walls this year and I am amazed at how much less I hear from the outside.
      Cloth can interfere with sound. I only know a little about this. But it might be interesting to look into something like insulated drapes. You’d have to figure out how to hang them across the wall, that might be a draw back.

      You could record your neighbor’s snoring, play it back for him and tell him you hope he gets checked by a doc. If you make it sound like you are concerned more for his health and well-being than you are concerned about your own discomfort, you might be successful in getting your point across.

  63. AnonToday*

    After a successful phone interview, I was supposed to have an in-person interview this week for a position at a small start-up, received a very confusing series of emails the day before (first the interview was canceled, then it wasn’t, then it was again). I got another email yesterday that said “Due to some organizational changes, we’re reevaluating this position and looking for someone with more experience, thanks so much for your interest.” I checked the company’s website and the hiring manager who conducted my phone interview was no longer there! So it looks like she got fired and now they’re hiring for her replacement instead of her assistant. Ugh.

    In better news, I had another phone interview with a much larger company that I thought went well and now I’m waiting to hear if they want to bring me in for an in-person. Crossed fingers!

  64. Dawn*

    I got an office with a door on it! Now I don’t have to go take over someone else’s office when I need to do a phone interview.

    Also week long vacation starts TOMORROW I am so excited! Happy long weekend everyone!

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Awesome! Some time in the next month I get my own office as well. I can’t wait!

  65. LawCat*

    Being demoralized at work is exhausting. Any tips?

    I have been looking for a new job while also trying to pursue internal remedies to what’s going on at work in case there can be a resolution (I am fortunate to have a very supportive supervisor, who has been advocating for me, but I am dealing with a systemic issue attempting resolution has been slow and I am also not optimistic on a positive outcome because of the “we can only do what we’ve always done” bureaucracy I work in). I am feeling a lot of stress and incredibly drained at the end of every day for reasons that have nothing to do with my actual work. A lot of domestic tasks have been sliding. I just want to Netflix and space out at the end of every day.

    1. JuniorDev*

      I’ll give you the advice I got while doing AmeriCorps: “find something that refreshes you and do it religiously.”

      For me that meant that every Tuesday (when my work schedule gave me some free time during the day) I would go for a hike at a nature preserve near town. Even in 3 feet of snow. Although at that point it was more like swimming than hiking.

      Pick a thing that’s totally unrelated to work that reliably relieves stress and do it at the same time every week. Bonus points if it involves moving your body–a lot of tension can build up without you noticing it and exercise is the best way I’ve personally found to press the reset button (but don’t make it about pressuring yourself to burn x calories or lift y pounds or whatever, if that sort of thing stresses you out. This is about caring for yourself.)

      1. F.*

        I second this. I have been gardening like crazy this week. In the winter, it is crocheting and sewing quilts for charity, both of which I find very rewarding.

    2. Joanna*

      Making sure you’re getting enough sleep and a reasonable diet often helps a lot because these things being off make everything feel worse.

      Sometimes it’s also helpful to remind yourself that every workplace has drama, politics and problems and that most of it is neither your fault nor your problem to fix.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Some things are just cruel irony. The very thing that allows us to disconnect from our reality is the very thing that prevents us from moving to a better reality. If you are too tired to do anything then go to bed. Seriously tv/Netflix/etc just drain us even further of what little energy is left.
      It’s really not fair that when the going gets tough we have to work even harder. Take a serious look at how you recharge. Decades ago, I recharged by drinking a liter of soda or eating cake. Then sitting up to 11 pm watching tv. I knew I needed 8 hour sleep but there I was getting 6 hours of sleep or less and wondering why I felt so much despair.
      An unforeseen benefit of taking care of yourself is the covert message you give yourself- “I am worth the effort”. If people around us are draining us, that is one type of problem. But if we are letting our own self-care slide that raises the problem to a new level, as we are telling ourselves we are not worth the extra effort.

      Invest in you, good foods, hydration, rest.

      At work, ask yourself often, “Is this the hill to die on?” Or “Do I need to pursue this point about X? If I do, what do I hope to gain by winning?” Streamline your battles at work, do not allow everything to be a #1 priority. A lot of it does not matter if you are leaving, keep that in mind.

      Deliberately look for positives, read uplifting books, watch positive movies if you decide to stay up watching movies. Read less news. Set small and reasonable goals, then congratulate yourself when you complete them.

  66. quandry*

    I need some quick advice. My management refuses to promote me in my current role, regardless of performance. I have identified a very favorable opportunity as one of the department heads is retiring. I have spoken to the retiree’s boss and the site General Manager and both responded favorably to me taking the position. The problem is my boss – he works out of another site 500 miles away and visits twice a year and we have a bi-weekly status call. He is generally a good manager, but can be vindictive sometimes. It would only take an off hand remark from him to derail this whole thing. Currently he knows nothing about my plans, even though, through no fault of my own, the gossip train is moving fast at this site and almost everyone here locally knows what is up, so eventually my boss may catch wind. How can I let him know that I am planning to move departments without him torpedoing the whole thing? To be honest, this is a win for everyone, as I will be here on site as a resource for my replacement indefinitely…

    1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      Emotional judo? Can you talk to him proactively and be REALLY REALLY PERKY AND EXCITED about this FABULOUS opportunity? Go into the conversation assuming he’ll be thrilled to help you out!

  67. Lefty*

    I have a scheduled interview next week for a promotion that would take me closer to family (geographically) as well. The position was newly created as “Team Lead” where traditionally similar positions at this level would be supervisory; since this is a GS position, that’s not likely to change. I need help with wording a question about this to the supervisor who will be interviewing me, “How do you see the Team Lead in this position collaborating with the supervisor to meet the project goals?” “What role will the Team Lead have in assisting the supervisor to ensure the staff works collaboratively toward project goals?”

    I’m really trying to ask how the Team Lead will be measured for meeting goals (listed as the top priority of the job) for a group of staffers who do not report to her… The supervisory role traditionally has a high turnover rate and it would appear that the Team Lead will often act as a supervisor but without the actual authority of one.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      What are the key points on an annual review for a team lead?
      Thinking about the good team leads you have had in the past, what did they do that made them above average?
      How much connection is there between the staffers performance and the team lead’s failure/success given that the team lead actually has not authority as an official supervisor?
      If a team lead asks Bob to submit his reports on time, and Bob continues to fail to submit his reports on time, what happens next?

      Basically, I have asked the same question in several different ways.

  68. JuniorDev*

    So I formally withdrew my application for SketchCo, Inc. I’ve now been offered a volunteer coordinator position for a nonprofit…for 2 to 5 hours a week.

    I’m a little baffled as to how to proceed. I’ve done volunteer coordination in the past and I’m not sure what meaningful work can even be done in that time. Like, the very nature of the job is that unexpected stuff happens.

    I’m thinking of taking it and just thinking of it as volunteer work for my personal purposes, and if I don’t get another job soon I’ll at least have something on my resume for this time period. They are definitely aware I am looking for other work and I told them I need to put that first, but even so I feel bad about using my time this weekend to prepare for a conference next week that might help me get an Actual Job. (PyCon, if anyone’s interested.)

    Has anyone ever hired someone in these sorts of circumstances? How do I make time for this in my week and not blow it off completely (it’s up to me when I work) without unreasonably interfering with my job search / networking and professional development?

    1. Anon Moose*

      What? No. I doubt you’d be able to even coordinate anything in 2-5 hours a week. I’ve never heard of a position created under 10 hours a week. If they’re that strapped for cash, not a good org to join anyway, in any capacity.

  69. Tomato Frog*

    Did anyone read the “Vox Media Peer Review Group Report on the Daniel Holtzclaw Story”? It’s a report detailing the events and processes that lead the website SBnation to publish an offensive, tone-deaf article about a serial rapist. I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts!

    If you’re a person who’s interested in process, workplace culture and dynamics, or the politics of publishing, you will be fascinated by this. The report breaks down the individual and organizational circumstances that allowed the piece to be published, and makes recommendations for how to avoid the same thing happening in the future. One of the interesting things to me is that it’s about editors abdicating their duties not just as arbiters of content, but as managers.

    I’ll put a link in the reply, but you can just Google the title.

  70. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

    How do you fake a career development plan when you have no intention of staying at your current company? This isn’t even a career, it’s a job. There’s no advancement opportunity whether in this role or elsewhere within the company even though management seems to think there is. How do you BS your way through this conversations?

    1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      Can you talk to management and identify what *they* think the career advancement looks like? That would probably be the first step.

      1. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

        Hmm. That’s a good idea. It seems like they always put this on us and say “Oh if you do X Y and Z you’ll be eligible for a promotion” except it won’t happen, promotions go to their toadies.

        1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

          Right right, but it’s a starting point for developing a good solid line of bull.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Well, I have done X, Y and Z so what are my next steps?

          Beat a dead drum. You know it goes no where but respond with an expectation that it does.

          I’d want to ask what I can do to become a toadie. But probably not a great idea. Why not ask, “What do I have to do to become seriously considered for promotion?” Emphasize the word “seriously”.

    2. Jennifer*

      Say stuff about how you’re going to improve your skills and uh, practice harder or take classes or something.

    3. Joanna*

      Is there things you could get training for/opportunities in at your current job that might help you in your future jobs?

  71. Intrepid*

    I have an interview! The first round is unfortunately recording a video interview, which the company estimates will take 10-20 minutes. I’ve been interviewing enough lately that I have a sense of some of the questions they’ll ask, but I’ve never done a video interview format before– any tips?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I’ve never done a video, but I’ve heard:
      1) make sure you have a steady internet connection
      2) do it in a quiet place
      3) dress as if it were an in-person interview
      4) have a neutral background behind you; think about what your interviewer can see behind/around you (maybe neutral is the wrong word but don’t want interviewer to form an erroneous or incorrect assumption just because they can see your messy bedroom or your private collection of Competitors’ Chocolate Teapots or something random)…
      5) test the day before (if possible) maybe with a friend to ensure you’re familiar with video platform (if its Skype or Facetime or something like that) and how to change volume, adjust picture, etc.

      1. Intrepid*

        These are all good tips! I’ll be doing it at home, so I need to clean…

        Even weirder to me is the fact that it’s actually recording a (series of?) video, rather than a back-and-forth like Skype. This also means I’m unfamiliar with the software. =/

        1. Tris Prior*

          I had to do this. The software actually was fine and easy to use. I think I did have to download a browser update; it might’ve only worked in something like Chrome that I don’t normally use.

          They let you do practice questions so you can make sure that the webcam is actually pointed at you, that you can be heard, that there isn’t anything distracting or embarrassing in the background, etc.

          The questions were all pretty standard – what qualifies you for this job, what do you know about the company, tell me about a time when you had to prioritize/deal with conflict/etc.

          That being said – it was probably the most awkward job-search-related thing I’ve ever had to do. It’s incredibly awkward to be talking into a camera with no one on the other end. I feel like if it were Skype or similar, where you were talking with another person, it would’ve been so much easier.

          It’s also REALLY hard to remember to look at the webcam and not your screen, because you’ve got a lot going on, on your screen. For mine, the questions sometimes had multiple parts and were shown on screen (so my eyes would keep wandering over to the question, to make sure I was hitting all the points I was supposed to). Then, you can see yourself on camera in a little window. Then there’s a timer bar that shows you how much time you have left on your answer. It’s a lot to keep track of. (note: I have no idea if this is how all companies do these. But this is what I encountered.) So I’d suggest practicing the “eye contact” into the webcam. I should’ve done more of that. I never record videos or even use skype or any sort of video calling so this was totally unfamiliar to me.

          I did get the job, though! I heard later from managers that all candidates come off as a bit awkward in these, and that everyone has at least some trouble with this because it’s just so unnatural.

          1. Intrepid*

            Thank you so much! It’s good to know that, as I suspected, most of the questions should be pretty standard. This whole comment is immensely helpful (especially the “everyone is awkward,” which is what I’m banking on) and I’ll go read it several more times.

    2. LQ*

      Get a good microphone. Please! I recommend one with an arm for the mic. (Logitech has a great one for like $25 and a decent one for about $10, it is worth it.) If you have to use a pair of earbuds with a mic in them lean forward, don’t let the mic stick to your skin, it will make it really hard to understand you.

      Smile. Not if the question is something about dealing with a horrible tragedy, but I recommend trying to smile more than usual because it is one of those things that is muted in video and audio so amping it up brings it to where you would normally be. If you are a 5% try to aim for 10%

      Try to have the camera pointed at your face as straight on as possible, if you have to go from a laptop try to raise the laptop up so the camera is at or above eye level. Put googley eyes or an arrow or something at your camera so you look there and not at the screen.

      Sophie has the rest of it covered very well!

      1. Intrepid*

        Thank you! I will take a quick look around for a mic– what are your thoughts on an arm mic vs. headphones with a mic? I know the former is preferable, but I have the latter– how big o a difference does it make?

        I ALWAYS struggle with looking at the camera, even Skyping friends, so I’ll make sure and make a post-it arrow or something.

    3. Liane*

      At least with Skype, check an hour or 2 before the call that you have the latest update. My gaming group has found that we’ll have all kinds of problems if even 1 person in the call doesn’t have the latest. These range from worse than usual sound problems (Skype has enough shortcomings in that area) to a non-updated person not being able to answer/join/be added to the call. That last would be a disaster in an interview.

      Good luck with the interview.

  72. Wannabe Project Manager*

    I’ve read much of the advice on this site for applying for jobs with a good cover letter and resume and how to do well in the interview. How does any of that change for applying to an internal position instead of external? This is my first” real” professional job.

    1. star23*

      I’ve applied for internal positions before and it feels awkward because you know the people. I think my advice is to just be normal, and talk to people the way you normally would. You don’t have to be extra formal or change the way you treat people just because it’s an interview.

      1. AnotherFed*

        It’s still a interview, so you generally should still dress appropriately, take the questions seriously, and be formal and specific in your answers. No, don’t pretend you don’t know them, but they still will be looking at what you say and how seriously you take the process as evidence of maturity, professionalism, and skill.

  73. K130*

    So last week I posted that they split up our team. Then on Tuesday this week, someone from my new three person team was removed to work on another project. But that left me with this task that I hate (she liked doing it and was very good at it) that takes at least half my working hours (also not in the job announcement or job description). Wednesday I got up the nerve to tell my boss it was above my pay-grade (federal workers, very specific bands of work, can’t do work you aren’t paid for). The person removed from our team was the appropriate pay grade, the work is handled by the appropriate pay-grade at our two sister offices. But Thursday via e-mail I was told that “after careful review” of my (completely inaccurate) position description, management has decided the task will stay with me until further notice. So now my pet project is gone, I have to do a job I would rather do anything else than do, apparently some of my autonomy at work is gone, my morale is shot, and everything that made it worth it to stay at this job no longer balances out the reasons to leave. So many people constantly complain about the toxic environment and I was just trying to maintain a keep my head down, do my job well, it doesn’t affect me attitude. There are several people in my office that have been here 30 years, through several management teams, and I’m trying to ride the rapids and know that “this too shall pass” but I’ve been doing that the entire time I’ve been here and just canNOT handle it anymore. I am really looking forward to this long weekend to spend an entire day sending out resumes.

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Keep your head down, and know that you’re working on getting out. It’s easy to get caught up in how awful the day-to-day is at a crummy job, but just think, one day you will forget 99% of the bad days you had at this job, because you will be in a better job!

  74. AnonForThis*

    What a day.

    Weeks ago I vented on Facebook about a family thing, lots of swearing but no details. Today I get told someone in work complained thinking it was about them.

    I’ve spent an inordinate amount of energy trying to convince people that yes, I see how it could have been misinterpreted but no, I didn’t mean it like that. The family issue is delicate to say the least and very upsetting to speak about.

    My Facebook doesn’t mention my company, or even my field of work, anywhere. Several colleagues are friends because it’s a very social company. My Facebook settings are private so no teapot suppliers or purchasers could see anything.

    As it stands one boss accepts my explanation, one doesn’t, one says it’s a serious issue, the other says it’s all cool but be more careful in future if things can be misinterpreted.

    I think I know who reported the post and either yet were being malicious or they saw themself in the rant so does that mean they are -expletive expletive expletive-?

    Argh!

    1. neverjaunty*

      Change your private settings. Nobody at work should be seeing private family rants.

      2. AnonForThis*

        In office culture a family rant is a totally normal thing to share, as is swearing. If a colleague hadn’t taken it the wrong way, the reaction would be “lol Anon is having a day of it” and indeed people did say that in RL and online.

        It has thrown me for a loop that instead of the boss saying this had been brought to his attention and asking what was going on, instead there was a presumption of guilt. So instead of being able to say “oh I’m sorry! That wasn’t directed at you and I’m really sorry you thought it was, let me make it up to you” I’ve had to explain and justify and defend.

        But yes, everyone from work is now restricted in Facebook. Which I’m sure will cause more problems. Bah.

        1. neverjaunty*

          If the ‘office culture’ is that you friend all your co-workers and they regularly see you vaguebooking about your family, then… there may be problems with the office culture in a way that makes this not a surprising result. When boundaries between work and private life are super fuzzy, people will barge past them.

    2. The Rat-Catcher*

      I think neither one. With no-details rants like the one you describe, it’s VERY easy for people to see themselves in it. It’s sort of similar to how horoscopes work, in that people read their own specific situation in a very vague description. So if, say, a coworker asked to borrow a pen and you said “sure – oh hey, this is my last one” or something to that effect, and then over the weekend your family member had people over to your house without your permission and something got stolen or some other big thing, and then you went on a rant about “no respect for my belongings!!!” and then your coworker thinks you’re up in arms about the pen thing that you probably don’t even remember.

      That said, complaining at work about it was silly on your coworker’s part.

      1. Nicole*

        I agree with everything you’ve said, particularly that last sentence. Can you imagine? “So-and-so posted a vague rant on Facebook that I think is about me.” Who does that?????

      1. Windchime*

        I wish I could read the article but it wants me to pay. The video was the most deliciously horrible thing I’ve seen in a long, long time. Cringe-worthy.

    3. Rat Racer*

      @Siemens (and other medical device manufacturers): You are, you are: a major reason why healthcare expenditures are projected to reach 20% of GDP in by 2020.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Sing it from the mountain tops. The health care community will bankrupt half of the people in this country, I swear. Then the patient dies anyway. But I am so glad that we are paying for this lovely commercial, at least those dancers have a paycheck.

        This is more of what I see here. I have mentioned the local hospital with a waterfall going down a wall in the lobby. Meanwhile sections of the actual hospital look like something out of a prison hospital and patients are so depressed by their surroundings. But, hey, great waterfall in the lobby.

    4. Rex*

      I can’t watch videos at work and the article requires a subscription. Can someone please explain?

      1. esra*

        It’s part of their rebrand to Siemens Healthineers. It’s this huge outdoor stage, with dancers in full orange and blue bodysuits dancing around to a corporate song they wrote. The employees are all staring at the stage, completely boggled, while the awful song just goes on and on.

        As both a designer and a corporate employee, it’s like watching the most glorious trainwreck.

  76. Heynonnynonny*

    My fabulous manager has just left. His replacement is… not so great.

    I work part-time (30 hours per week, as opposed the usual 40), but I’m expected to get through as much work as the full-timers. I usually do, thanks to being organised, efficient and generally pretty damn good at my job. (Also, engagingly modest.)

    I’ve recently taken charge of the technical side of a project that’s taking up a lot of time. I’ve received a lot of praise for my work on it, from the CEO (of a 2,500-employee company) on down. However, it’s taking up more and more time, to the extent that my everyday output is slipping. Because I’m expected to chop and change between project work and everyday work every few minutes, depending on my manager’s whims, the project is also suffering.

    I’ve raised the issue with my not-so-great manager and asked to have my everyday workload reduced so I can give the (multi-million £) project the attention it needs. That was a hard, “Not a chance,” so I asked to at least have one or two mornings a week where I could concentrate solely on the project.

    His response was to yell at me, and tell me to, “Just bloody do your work.”

    So far this week I’ve worked 50 hours. Considering I’m part-time for health reasons, I simply can’t keep this up. (As an added bonus, my health means I’m not supposed to do overtime, so I’m not even getting paid for the extra hours!)

    Any suggestions? I know my head of department would be amenable to my suggestions but I suspect going over my manager’s head would be a bad idea.

    1. Dawn*

      “I’m not supposed to do overtime, so I’m not even getting paid for the extra hours”

      Stop that. You’re working overtime, GET PAID FOR IT. Make a stink with HR if you have to. And then when anyone asks just *why* you’re working overtime, explain to them about what your new boss said.

      Alternatively, just leave after 30 hours. Document the crap outta everything and refuse to work beyond 30 hours if you have a health accommodation that requires you to not work more than 30 hours. If your boss throws a hissy fit, take it up with his boss. Take it up with HR.

      Don’t let this new crappy boss undermine YOUR HEALTH AND SANITY. Demand to be taken seriously and don’t back down till they do.

      1. Dawn*

        Also, starting immediately work on the CEO’s project first and foremost before you work on anything your boss gives you to do. If he complains, tell him to take it up with the CEO.

      3. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

        Do not continue to work if you are not being paid, period. You are setting a bad precedent for them to use and abuse you.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “What? Me? Work more than 30 hours? NOT A CHANCE!”

      It’s not up to you to compensate for his shortsightedness, okay, his narrow thinking. He needs to expand his thinking and you can help him do that.

  77. Hey Nonny Nonny*

    I am making business cards to hand out at a networking event with my name, degree, email, cellphone, and LinkedIn.

    While working on the template, I suddenly became overcome with the fear that I am giving out too much information and someone will be able to use it nefariously (not a network contact, but what if they dropped it and someone else found it?? DUN DUN DUN).

    I’m being completely bonkers and paranoid, right? (Or if I’m not, should I be doing something differently?)

    1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      Leave off cellphone number maybe, if it would make you feel less paranoid? But I don’t think it’s a big concern.

    2. Hey Nonny Nonny (Rippity Pippity Ay)*

      Ack, I didn’t realize I was taking someone else’s name! Blame I Love Lucy reruns.

    3. TCO*

      You could always give a Google Voice number instead of your primary cell number for a bit more privacy. But I don’t think you have anything to worry about.

    4. Joanna*

      Most of this information is probably easy to find online. Also, the chances of someone who wants to do something bad with other people’s personal info finding your dropped business card are very low

    5. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Don’t ever Google your name!

      All of this stuff is readily available if you know where, or how, to look. If anything, I would leave off the cell phone just to avoid annoying recruiter calls! But really, none of this can be used to open accounts, credit cards, etc. The most they could do is sign you up for inappropriate emails.

  78. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

    Oh man, I had to change the copier toner for the first time this week and I finally understand all the jokes.

      1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

        Not khakis but a light colored shirt that seemed to have the same magnetic affect! And it got all up in my face.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Peppermint soap will take out copier toner.

            It took me twenty years to figure that out.

            You have to work at it. Maybe use a fingernail brush to scrub the stain. And the sooner you treat the stain the easier it comes out. Do not throw the garment in the hamper and wait until the end of the week. I learned that, too.

    2. The Rat-Catcher*

      I feel you on the toner thing, but mostly I’m commenting because I love your name!!! So many great handles at AAM!

      1. Chaordic One*

        You should always wear black.

        Then someone else in the office will bring doughnuts covered with powdered sugar. You’ll end up with powdered sugar all over your clothes, but at least the doughnuts are good.

  79. star23*

    YAY! The incompetent person who was in charge of my committee has been removed from that role and I get to lead it instead! I was basically doing everything already but now I officially get credit for it. I am so thankful that my supervisors have recognized that this other person was not effective, and that I am now getting recognized for the work I’m doing. This is way better than any kind of honor or award.

  80. Zahra*

    I thought I’d give you guys an update after my post about my ADHD affecting me (negatively) at work in the Open Thread of April 29th. The first few days were a bit rough: they hadn’t prepared much for me to do, so I installed various software, bugged them for access to the tools I needed (and it’s not complete yet) and continued learning Python (after asking if it was okay and thank god I had something professional-looking to do). Once they gave me work, it went better. Somehow, me, the woman with ADHD, gets to be the one to take notes in meetings (okay, that one is totally thanks to ADHD, it helps me stay focused on the meeting) and doing documentation (which I like… to a point, proofreading and adding details after the first draft is harder). Still, I have some off days, but, mostly, I’m doing much better than in previous jobs. Not quite where I’d like to be, but much closer. I’ve started biking to work (45 minutes, including the time to park and lock my bike, whereas public transportation is 45-60 minutes) and I’ve noticed it helps a lot: I get to work raring to go and I’m good until 2PM. I’ll have to take the bike out for a quick ride or take a walk during lunch and see if that helps. It helps me fall asleep at a reasonable hour too: I think it helps drain the residual energy from stimulants.

    All your advice came in handy too. I need to work more on listening rather than talking and making sure my tone doesn’t come across as dismissive or judgemental. I asked a few people why it’s so hard for me to make friends, and that’s one commentary that stuck with me.

    Tl;dr version: I’m doing better than what I was fearing. I put tools in place to help me (Todoist, Stayfocusd) and I’m using various strategies to make sure I have enough energy and concentration to go through the day.

    1. E*

      Thanks for sharing those tools, I hadn’t heard of either one but will definitely be trying them out!

  81. Crylo Ren*

    I joined a new company last month and I’m pretty bemused at the company / team culture. The company is big on “culture” in general which is great, but my individual team (~20 people) is VERY spiritual and believes strongly in the power of positive thinking and that Law of Attraction/The Secret thing that was so trendy a few of years ago.

    Just to pull out some examples – we have a weekly Law of Attraction tarot card ritual and there are also “unofficial” team-building activities every month where we all go to someone’s house, silently meditate for half an hour, and then discuss our personal “visions”. These events are not strictly mandatory, but it’s heavily implied that not participating = not being a team player.

    I’m trying to be open-minded and take part in these activities in good spirit, because my coworkers really are one of the friendliest and most welcoming groups of people I’ve ever worked with, and I can put up with an odd ritual or two in the interest of team-building. But I definitely fall on the skeptical/critical side of things so it doesn’t feel genuine. I just can’t bring myself to get so touchy-feely.

    Anyone else’s teams do similar things? What are some idiosyncracies of your company culture or team? Maybe if other people’s workplaces do similar things, I won’t feel so out of place, ha.

    1. AnotherFed*

      That seems a bit strange, yeah. My team has occasionally had game nights that lasted until the next day, on a work night, which does not make me happy because 12 hours of togetherness plus no sleep plus doing my job the next day was not fun, though it was certainly bonding.

      1. Crylo Ren*

        See, we actually do have a Board Games club here which I am keeping a close eye on because I really want to join! That’s the part of our company culture that I really like – employees are encouraged to form and join clubs to foster an awesome community. I’m just not really feeling this spiritual / holistic / energies thing that is prevalent in my team…

    2. Lillian McGee*

      That sounds so kooky, but I think I might actually love it. It reminds me of Tina Fey’s boss from Baby Mama (was it Steve Martin?) He was like a hippie CEO who gave her a sea shell or something and told her to construct a grocery store based on its energy.

      My org is full of hardcore librul skeptics. It’s really kind of boring.

      2. Jennifer*

        As a hippie, I would be down with most of this. Though I don’t think it’s appropriate to have virtually mandatory home visit meditation meetings outside of work.

    3. JuniorDev*

      That…is sketchy and maybe not legal (religious discrimination). But I’m not sure what you can do besides politely decline to attend things that don’t directly relate to work. (As hokey as it is, if the Tarot readings are used to introduce work topics, they’re theoretically a work meeting.)

    4. Dawn*

      Pffffffffffffft what in the hell! That’s so ridiculous I cannot even begin to comprehend anyone thinking it’s a good idea in a professional workplace.

      TAROT CARDS?!?!? That’s not normal. That’s way, way beyond not normal.

      1. neverjaunty*

        This. Run far away from these people. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with an employee choosing to believe in woo, but making it official company policy and voluntelling people to participate in it? No no no (and also possibly illegal).

        1. Crylo Ren*

          It’s not official company policy, thank goodness!!! (Even though official company policy has its own woo-woo-ness…)

          I should have specified further that the card drawing & meditation things are, AFAIK, just on my team and aren’t officially sanctioned by upper management…but that’s probably because upper management is largely unaware (these meetings are arranged through private Facebook events / Slack messages).

          1. neverjaunty*

            Um, yeah, if I found out a group I supervised had “”””voluntary”””” woo sessions going on, I’d be super pissed.

    5. LizB*

      Noooope I would not be okay with this. I do not like to meditate in a group setting, especially not with coworkers. I had one boss who was super into mindfulness meditation, and made us do several sessions during staff training, including one session where we were randomly assigned a partner, had to stare into their eyes (blinking as little as possible) for an excruciatingly long amount of time (I think it was 5-10 minutes?), then tell each other what we had discovered about them as a person by staring at them. I have never hated a team-building activity so much in my entire life. When I left I was pretty blunt with my boss about how inappropriate I found it to be required to do that kind of thing in a work setting — it’s essentially therapy, and the only people who should be privy to any therapy I do are me and my therapist, not my entire workplace!

      The tarot stuff is also super inappropriate for the workplace. I generally consider tarot to be harmless B.S., and if other people do it, I don’t care… but I wouldn’t want to be forced to participate, and I would be furious if anyone starting treating me differently in the workplace based on my results.

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Yeah, mindfulness meditation is apparently pretty big in our area (I see Meetups for it all the time). I don’t have any problem with meditation in your own time but I would never want to do that in the company of my coworkers!

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Um, hello. I would really, really like you to let me print this as its own letter because this is bizarre. Okay for me to do that?

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Oh my gosh, that would make my year! \:D/

        I do want to mention that the tarot card thing isn’t like a traditional reading. It’s more like someone goes around and makes us draw two cards from a couple of Law of Attraction decks at random (some of which look like actual tarot, and the others are like these: http://www.amazon.com/Law-Attraction-Cards-Esther-Hicks/dp/1401918727)
        Then we have to read the statements on them aloud to the person who is distributing the cards, and then display them at our desks so people know what we’re working on a personal level for the week. Not sure if that makes it more or less kooky, ha!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Thank you! If you want me to email you ahead of time once I know when it will run, just shoot me an email so I have your email address.

          I’m also going to ask everyone to hold further discussion on this until it runs as its own — thanks!

    7. Laura*

      Whaaaaat? That is SO strange, and extremely unprofessional. A lot of those things could violate someone’s religious beliefs.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, that is what I want to hear Alison’s response to. If I follow my faith, I cannot be doing this. But honestly, faith aside, this is nothing I want to be involved with anyway.

    8. super anon*

      team-building activities every month where we all go to someone’s house, silently meditate for half an hour, and then discuss our personal “visions”.

      oh my god i had to do something similar at my current job, except it was a morale boosting exercise for my seriously dysfunctional department. we had to close our eyes and envision all of our ancestors coming to visit us and giving us advice… and then we had to tell everyone what advice our ancestors gave us! my father had just died 10 days before and it was all i could do to get through that without sobbing.

      quite frankly it was the worst experience of my working life thus far (and i’m including my coworkers accusing me of lying about my race to get my job & the time an 85 year old man propositioned me for sex when i was ringing him through in my prior retail life) and if i went to a place that made me do it again i would be looking for jobs asap.

  82. F.*

    I guess I just need to vent, but any advice is welcome. I am trying to make a lateral move from HR Manager to Office Manager at my dysfunctional small company. While the change has been approved by the owner of the company (who has final say on all things), he is sabotaging my efforts to hire my replacement in the HR position. I wrote a kick-ass advertisement (which was actually STOLEN VERBATIM by a temp agency and used on a number of job boards days after I placed the ad!) which has attracted over 70 candidates. Unfortunately, all of them have Master’s degrees (or are in a Master’s program) and far more than the 2-5 years of experience we are looking for. Then to make matters worse, the owner set the salary below $40,000/yr.! This is greatly below market rate for even an inexperienced candidate. He demanded that I bring in and interview a number of candidates who want $60-70,000. I refused, explaining that this would be a gross insult to them and damaging to the company’s (and his) reputation. I finally got him to back down about interviewing the highly overqualified candidates, but he is stubbornly sticking to the low salary. I don’t necessarily attribute this to malice on his part, he is simply cheap when it comes to overhead. He thinks that there are dozens and dozens of unemployed, desperate HR professionals out there just waiting to come work here. I plan to repost the position with the salary included after the holiday. We’ll see what I get.

    This position is called “HR Manager” because it is the only HR position in this small company. It is also salaried-exempt (for the time being). It really should not be exempt because the duties contain almost no real responsibility (as defined by the law) and consist of nearly all paperwork. The owner makes all of the HR decisions, rightly or wrongly. One of the reasons I want out is because I, as the HR Manager, can legally and personally be held liable for his decisions. That is a risk I am definitely not willing to continue taking!

    I am also looking at external job openings, mostly administrative assistant type positions. I’ve applied for a couple of them, but with no results (yet). At my age (55), I know it will be difficult to find another position. I feel like I’m in the Hotel California, “You can check out, but you can never leave.” I gotta get out of this place!!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Oh wow. Yeah the legal issues you talk about would concern me. (I guess I would documenting everything, though if you’d still be held liable I don’t know enough about that.)

      Best of luck in job search. (And in finding a new HR).

      Congrats on awesome job advertisement.

      1. F.*

        I just wish that the temp agency (Ajilon) who stole the ad would at least have emailed a Thanks for Doing Our Work for Us or something.

    2. E*

      No advice, just commiseration. I was in the same place a couple of years ago. Finally hired an HR replacement so I could get out. We’ve now gone through multiple HR managers in that 2 years, most weren’t as competent as I’d like but I wasn’t the one hiring and budget was also an issue. I’m still trying to get the last of my HR related duties off my plate but I also worry about a future audit. Trying so hard to stick with “not my monkeys, not my circus” and focusing on my new position which is so much more enjoyable. Best wishes for you to get out soon!

      1. F.*

        Thanks for the commiseration. I know my replacement won’t be as competent as I am (and I am not qualified by education or experience for the position in the first place), but I am prepared to accept that. I can just see this dragging out for months and months with no end in sight. I got the approval for the lateral move on May 9, he took a week to approve the ad, another week to set a salary, etc. etc. I may have to set a hard and fast deadline and resign without anything lined up, though that won’t help my job search any.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      1. Put the salary in the ad, which will help people self-select out.
      2. Point out to the owner that as of December 1, when the exempt salary threshold increases, this position will need to be nonexempt.

      1. F.*

        1. Just did that and reposted it.
        2. Have done that, too. He said that the person will not be allowed to work OT. Period.

  83. Jadelyn*

    So I’m hoping the AAM community can help give me some perspective on something – what’s a reasonable timeline for asking for a raise/title change/promotion/something like that? Because I really feel like my role has grown far past what I’m actually doing, but because of the timing of how I’ve gotten here I feel like asking about it would be pushing things too hard…except I’m getting increasingly resentful about still being an “assistant” (and paid as such) with all the special-projects and systems work I’m doing now. So here’s my timeline (sorry, it’s kinda long):

    January 2014 – started as a temp through an external agency, at a part-time filing/data entry job in an HR department ($11/hr); March 2014 – position went to full-time because I had begun picking up some of the more admin-type HR work to help the overworked Generalist out and they wanted to encourage that. Got a raise because of the work I’d been doing ($14/hr); November 2014 – converted from external (agency) temp to internal temp – on the company’s payroll with benefits, but the position was still technically “temp”. Since it was a new position, there was no established salary range for the position, so I kept my existing pay rate but they promised it would be benchmarked and my rate adjusted if necessary “within the next couple of months”; November 2015 – after a LOT of pushing and self-advocacy on my part they finally followed through on the benchmarking and adjusted my salary to $17/hr. I’m barely above the minimum of the benchmarked range and am still under market value for my duties and region.; January 2016 – company announced a change in policy that would allow long-term temp employees to get annual merit increases, which had previously not been allowed, and I was told by my VP that my performance had been the impetus behind the change because when they were reviewing the raises for HR the CEO asked why I wasn’t getting one, and when told “Because she’s a temp” apparently he said “that’s stupid, let’s change that.” I got a 2% increase to $17.34; February 2016 – I was asked by our parent org’s HR department to take a more active systems role in our HRIS implementation, basically making me a secondary systems administrator working with their main sysadmin, in addition to my regular duties.; March 2016 – my position was finally converted from “long-term temp” to regular.

    The VP keeps trying to hand me special projects because he trusts me and relies on me, and I keep having to remind him that I’ve got 20 open positions to recruit for and 250 employees to keep up with and there’s still only one of me, so EITHER we can have operations running smoothly OR he can get his special projects moving forward. As a result, we’re now trying to hire a second HR Assistant to help me with the day-to-day stuff like filing, regular data entry, and basic recruiting (job postings, reviewing resumes, etc.) so that I can work directly with the VP on HR projects and with our parent org on the HRIS implementation. I’m glad that my need for support has been seen and is being addressed, but I’m also feeling kind of upset about the possibility that someone else could be brought in at my same title and same pay rate or close to it, when they would just be doing the simple admin stuff I don’t have time to keep up with anymore, while I’m still just an “HR Assistant” despite the expansions of my duties. Given that the last “boost” to my position (converting from temp to regular) was only a couple months ago, is it too soon to ask about a promotion? I might not be ready to be a full HR Generalist yet (although I’ve now got 2.5 years of HR experience, just took the aPHR exam, and will be completing my degree in HR Management in January, so depending on your definition I might be), but I feel like something like “HR Specialist” or “HRIS Administrator” or something like that would be appropriate.

    I just want to feel like my actual job is represented fairly by my title and pay, and I don’t feel like “HR Assistant” really covers that at this point; but, I feel like my VP and the leadership team might see it as me pushing for too much too soon, given that there was a lot of deal-making going on behind the scenes to create, price, and convert my existing job to begin with.

    But I also know I have a history of selling myself short, and I want to make sure I don’t do that. What do you guys think?

    1. Angel*

      You had a raise 6 months ago, plus another merit increase in between. Hiring someone else does not make you more valuable. I would raise the idea of a promotion/title change to your boss, likely during your annual review, based on your duties/successes only, not how it relates to the new hire. Good luck.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I think I understand where you are coming from. A change in title to something like “HR Information Systems Specialist” or “Operator” certainly sounds like it would more than appropriate.

      Also, don’t forget that they when they hire an HR Assistant (a real HR Assistant, not an HR IS Specialist like yourself) you’ll probably be at least somewhat involved in training and maybe even supervising this person, so be sure to let your supervisors know that. It is still one more thing on your plate and I’m sure you’ll rise to the occasion.

  84. A. D. Kay*

    I wrote on the last week’s work-related open thread about the Client From Hell who never bothered to tell me or my recruiter that their contract position was PART TIME, then let me go after an hour and a half when I objected. (I posted on a Saturday so a lot of you may have missed it). I lost about two weeks of job-hunting time due to those clowns, but fortunately, I have been able to bounce back. I’ve got an onsite interview lined up next week with a really interesting company that really seems to have their act together. Wish me luck, y’all!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Congrats. (I think I do recall that post. I’d be upset at the wasted time too.)

  85. EA*

    RANT

    So irritated. My manager heads a little department of 7 people, me included. We fall under the larger department. My manager was planning on letting everyone go at 3 today for the holiday, without charging us for PTO. They do this before major holidays. The EA for the larger department head found out, and emailed out boss that he cannot let us go. Apparently it is against official policy. She is also a stickler for rules and a highly obnoxious person. I know she was pissed she didn’t get to leave, but she is always a rule follower even when no one else does and the rule is stupid. I do not understand such people.

    1. neverjaunty*

      The EA may be a jerk, but no points to your manager for doing something against company policy and trying to slide it under the radar.

      1. EA*

        Tons of people break the rule. If she asked her boss, he most likely wouldn’t have cared. If my boss went to the department head and explained the situation, he most likely wouldn’t have cared. He said he will talk to him later about getting more autonomy.

        1. neverjaunty*

          I’m not excusing the EA, but presumably your boss knew 1) this rule existed and 2) the EA would have kittens when she heard he was breaking it.

          1. EA*

            No that is fair. Honestly my boss sees other managers doing this, so it probably didn’t cross his mind he couldn’t break a rule that most don’t follow.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed, neverjaunty. These things do not play out well. It’s just best practice to follow the rules. I have to point at the manager who offered something to the employees that he should not be giving.

  86. AnotherFed*

    Last week I posted about an engineer on a detail to my team resigning via email and then going MIA. Instead of coming in this week to do his out processing, he apparently went back to HR and un-resigned (turns out there’s a time limit where that’s allowed for federal employees), and tried to show up like normal on Monday. Except I’d already cut off his access to everything, and so did his home manager, and neither of us wants him back given the unprofessional behavior of last week. HR already told him he could have his job back, so their recommendation was to put him on a PIP…

    Yes, this is your tax dollars at work. :(

  87. Brose*

    Anyone work a full-time telecommute job? For various life reasons I’m trying to break into one desperately, but it often feels like throwing my resume out into a black hole. I’m looking for things in writing/editing/marketing/social media/communications, but would also do admin or data. Any tips on how to finagle one of these kinds of jobs? (I’m a diligent flexjobs user, ps). Thanks!

    1. Rat Racer*

      I work full time from home and it has been a game-changer for me. I love it! I work for a healthcare company with a national presence so many/most of my colleagues also work from home at least part time. My recommendation would be to find a company that supports a remote work environment, and see if they have jobs posted in your field. For something like writing/marketing/communications: all large companies have these roles, so it’s just a question of finding one that supports telecommuting with open positions in that department.

      I can’t speak to the black hole piece though – that is definitely one of the problems with large corporations.

    2. Danae*

      I work full-time telecommute currently! Honestly, the jobs that actually advertise that they’re telecommuting are few and far between–my current job is one I came across on LinkedIn. I’m currently looking for another remote job, and it’s tough, to be honest, especially if you’re not a programmer.

      For the moment, I’m looking for jobs that look like they could be done remotely, and checking the company web sites to see if they mention telecommuting as a possibility.

      It’s so worth finding a telecommute job, though. I work harder and longer than I do in an office, I’m not distracted all day long by noise and people, and I don’t have a commute. It’s really the best.

    3. orchidsandtea*

      I do, because I work for a firm so small that we don’t have a central office. Everyone works from home. I miss standing and bouncing ideas around with someone, solving things together. When it’s good it’s very very good, but now that it’s not it’s…harder.

    4. Liane*

      You can check with Medical transcription firms, which may have editor positions. The one I had didn’t require knowing how to transcribe. I used the same software as the transcriptionists and listened to the dictation while reading the finished transcription.
      This is best for someone with someone with some medical/life science background.

    5. Not Me*

      Regular poster going undercover for this; I am paranoid that my job search might be discovered.

      I don’t work from home, but I’m in the beginning stages of trying to secure such a gig. I used to work in a small city about 150 miles away, and they are starting to build their own data warehouse. Things aren’t going so well at my current job, so I reached out to a friend who still works at OldJob and asked her if any of the warehousing jobs were going to be telecommute (with a haha afterwards, because it didn’t seem likely). As it turns out, they have indeed decided that they might have to have a telecommuting team to build their data warehouse! We are in early stages of talks now and it’s not anything close to a sure thing.

      Long story short–reach out to past (or even current) employers and just ask. Things have changed a lot in the past few years and telecommuting is becoming more and more common.

  88. Anon for this*

    This is more of a rant than anything else.
    My nonprofit has a new executive director and I cannot stand him. He talks ALL DAY LONG. We have an open office layout so this is really annoying. Most of the staff respect each other enough to not have long or personal conversations – except for him. He does not seem bothered by the noise. I’m in development so I need him to help with fundraising too. He has only made one set of donors calls after 6 weeks of working here and hasn’t made one in more than 3 months! I ask him about the calls so I can log the contact reports and he just tells me he hasn’t gotten around to them (probably because he’s too busy talking about his personal life).

    Sigh. I’m committed to leaving at this point and going out on my own as a consultant. It’s amazing how one leader can change everything about the organization’s culture.

    1. SophieChotek*

      If he’s responsible for bringing in funding for a non-profit and isn’t doing that, I would think the board would notice quite soon, so even if he still won’t stop talking about his personal life, he might at least need talk to it with the donors (which might not endear him to them.)

      Best of luck with consultant work. I agree it’s amazing how one person can change a culture or the mentality.

  89. Cass*

    I wrote in a few months about being assigned a somewhat-unsavory story about a University I was interviewing for a job with – glass half full, I didn’t get the job but the story won 2 awards, one state-wide and one national award. (funny enough, the university sent out Facebook messages/tweets congratulating me as an alumna on the honor.)

    2. fposte*

      Oh, I remember that one–thanks for the update, and congratulations on the awards.

  90. AF*

    I just talked to my boss about not wanting to attend a potluck/picnic at her house on a weekend. I had initially told her I couldn’t make it on the initial date (which is true), and she asked me what I was doing that weekend, and then wanted to reschedule when a couple of us said we couldn’t make it. I framed it as “my weekends are sacred to me, and I’m on a budget” (both of which are 100% true), and that I didn’t want her to reschedule because of me. She looked at me like I was crazy but ultimately understood. She said it would be just like inviting friends and family over. She’s friends with several people on our team, and she’s a very nice person, but I flat out do not like one of the members of my team, and don’t want to give up 1/4 of my weekend to spend time with them, AND have to buy food for 20 people.

    To be clear, we already have a lot of team lunches and other activities (some that our department pays for, and some we pay for – like birthday lunches for everyone on our team). I’m very grateful for the guidance in all of the previous AAM posts where this kind of topic was discussed. It felt suuuuuuper awkward to be the one dissenter in the group (or maybe others dissent, but didn’t say anything), but I feel better about letting her know.

    1. AF*

      I also mentioned that I was really grateful that she cared about team cohesion and morale, but I just didn’t want to be a part of this. I think that softened the blow a bit. But I don’t think she had any idea that this could be viewed as a burden or an obligation, and not a fun time.

    2. LizB*

      I think your framing sounds perfect, and I may use that next time I’m faced with mandatory fun or work/life boundary stretching that I want to avoid! I’m glad the conversation went well.

      1. AF*

        Thank you!! It may still be an awkward conversation with your manager, because, at least in my case, my manager is an extrovert, and I’m very much an introvert, so the entire way she views social events and team cohesion is different from mine. I like getting along with coworkers, but I have a very active life outside of work, and I don’t want to combine the two if it’s after work hours. Good luck with future conversations!!

  91. Amber Rose*

    Ugh, get me out of here! The loss of a quarter of our staff has left me coming to work and walking into a black cloud of general misery and resentfulness. It’s exhausting. And as safety person, I’m being asked to tell everyone to cheer up. :/

    So I have no references from this job (they don’t want me to leave) and due to previous job going out by the light of a burning bridge (and then company dying a painful death) nothing on that front either. My club is a non-profit of which I’m a board member, can I use them maybe?

    I don’t want to job hunt but I’m not left with a ton of options here.

    1. Anon Moose*

      I mean, your references don’t have to work for the previous company any more either, so the company going under (and presumably everyone jumping ship) doesn’t really matter? References are people, not companies or job descriptions. Can you track down and contact your previous supervisor in their new position? Or at least some coworkers?
      And, for your current job, any of the people among the quarter of staff that have left the organization able/willing to speak to the quality of your work? They will presumably understand completely why you want to leave, too, right?
      The nonprofit board sounds like a decent third reference, maybe, but I’d try for previous coworkers.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah but my last job was so toxic we all hated each other. Not only do I not have contact info, if I tried to find them I’d be lucky to only be told “f*** off.” There were only four of us, I had no supervisor then. The reference from the job one further step back retired and can’t be located.

        As for now, I only work closely with one person that isn’t my boss, the head of the department I’m supposed to take over when she leaves in August. Maybe she’d do it, but I can also see her being upset that nobody would be left to run things.

  92. Goinganonymous*

    Just some venting here … last Friday I asked for some input on what to tell CurrentJob Hiring Manager about FormerJob coworker Bob and his bullying ways (Bob was applying for a job at CurrentJob). I gathered enough courage to tell Hiring Manager about the workplace behaviours I’d observed in Bob. I’ve now found out that Bob didn’t get the job. No idea about whether my input had anything to do with it; Bob said that Hiring Manager had some other unrelated concerns about his candidacy.

    I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. Bob’s current job is causing him undue stress and I’m honestly a bit surprised he has stayed on for so long. So I support him getting out of there. But I honestly do not think my company is the right place for that – his commute would be even worse and the daily job demands are far more complex than at his current job. So I hope he finds a new job, but I’m glad it wasn’t at my job. Weird as it sounds.

  93. Mimmy*

    Okay, next career question (I asked about policy analysis a couple weeks ago). Today, I am looking for program evaluators!

    One thing I’ve loved in my volunteer work in recent years is reading and evaluating grant proposals and visiting the agencies who request funding. Unfortunately, the site visit component is difficult for me because I can’t drive (though I have had people offer to let me go with them). I just love reading about how programs are designed and evaluated internally and the research or “best practices” that are incorporated into the design.

    I have also helped to aggregate workshop evaluations and enjoy that as well. I’m always evaluating my classes or workshops in my head and have always wanted to analyze these evaluations.

    I think I could do well with evaluation. So my questions are similar:
    – Typical duties / projects
    – Skills / attributes
    – Training

    I also wonder if evaluators are considered the “bad guys” since it is often tied to funding, accreditation or licensure, be it an education or human service program.

  94. Time to job hunt*

    It looks like I’m being demoted at work. Many responsibilities have been taken away. I had been saying for about a year that I really needed an intern or part timer and kept getting told that I’d get a full timer and not to worry. Instead of that, we got in a new senior person who I was shuffled to report to and she took all of my higher level projects and tasks herself and gave me what I had planned to have the assistant take on.

    So now I’m looking. I hate that I feel like a failure when I have been speaking up about what wasn’t getting done and was told repeatedly that we’d get someone and not to worry about it. This was not how I envisioned it going. Perhaps this is salvageable, but frankly, it’s knocked the wind out of my sail and really soured me on this company. It’s time to cut my losses.

    2. Crylo Ren*

      You’re not a failure. It wasn’t your fault that they decided to shuffle your role. Best of luck with your search!

    3. Dot Warner*

      Good luck with your search! I’ve been in your shoes before, and it isn’t the end of the world. When you find a company that actually supports you, you’ll succeed.

    4. Not Me*

      I’m in your shoes right now. The exact same things have happened to me in the last 6 months or so. I’ve spent many months being upset and trying to understand why this is happening, but now I think I have moved past those stages of grief into acceptance and I’m starting my job search.

      I fully sympathize with you. It does feel like having the wind knocked out of your sails. I felt like my confidence was totally crushed, like everything I believed about myself (that I’m smart, that I do a good job, that people like me at work) was all a big fat lie. I’ve moved past that now, but it’s so debilitating when it happens.

      Best of luck in your search.

  95. Title IX update*

    Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for commenting last week about the issues with being closeted at work. I really appreciated everyone’s support – if anything else, it really helped to hear along the lines of “yo, that’s screwed up” and made me feel less isolated.

    And the reason I wasn’t able to get back to the computer last Friday was because I was attending a queer meet-up group. Good stuff ;)

  96. Amelia Earhart*

    It doesn’t impact me so I know it shouldn’t annoy me, but: a supervisor in another department is dating her subordinate, who left his wife with their numerous (like 5+) kids, one under a year old to be in this relationship. And HR won’t touch it because there is nothing about dating in our employee handbook. :|

    1. Ell*

      Yikes. :/

      Your company needs a policy about managers dating subordinates or else they’re going to end up in a precarious spot.

    2. neverjaunty*

      It does impact you, in that you work for a company with an HR department staffed by spineless fools.

  97. Danae*

    Does anyone have any experience with working in Canada as an American citizen? I just realized that I live very close to a Canadian city that is in dire need of tech workers–and it’s a city I’ve spent a lot of time in and absolutely love. I’d be moving there, if I get a job, and if it seems like I can make a go of it I’d be looking at becoming a naturalized Canadian citizen.

    1. Not Karen*

      A tiny bit – part-time as a grad student – so I don’t know if I can be of any help. The one thing I do know is if this city is in Quebec, employers will expect you to be fluent in both English and French.

      1. Danae*

        The city I’m looking at is in BC, and the feedback I’m getting about the process is that it involves a LOT of paperwork and immigration lawyers, especially if you’re looking at a full-time role and an open-ended visa. I think it’s worth it for me to apply for jobs north of the border, but I now have a list of things to look for in a job offer if I manage to get one.

        1. Zahra*

          Make sure you’re looking at NAFTA possibilities if you want to try it out for a year or two. Otherwise, expect to make 2 tax declarations every year and spend the money to get an accountant skilled in making tax declarations for people with dual citizenship.

          1. Ann*

            Seconding the NAFTA ref which often covers things that surprise me like libraries and there are more libraries than Macdonalds restaurants in Can/US. Also – generally the CIC (what’s the new name?) and CRA websites are super helpful and you can always get helpful humans on the 1-800 numbers too.

    2. automotive engineer*

      I work for a US based company and I live in the US but I’m temporarily commuting to Canada and working there. I’m still on US payroll so my personal experience is not helpful but some of my coworkers are US citizens working for the Canadian arm of the company. They said that basically once there’s a company that wants to hire you and is willing to help out with immigration/paperwork it’s no big deal.

  98. Journal Entries*

    I read that it is recommended not to spend more than 30% of your income on housing; I’m looking for a new place and may need to go over that. Can I take an informal poll? What percent of your income do you spend on housing?
    Thanks everyone!

    1. K130*

      We spend about 20% (includes utilities ad maintenance). But I remember when half my paycheck went to rent.

    2. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      For mortgage, property taxes and homeowner’s insurance, we pay about 7% of our gross income on housing.

      2. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

        And to clarify based on other’s responses: It would be around 10% of net income. Utilities are negligible and don’t really affect the percentage much. This is factoring in both my and my husband’s income.

    3. ThatGirl*

      About 50% of my personal take-home income, but combined with my husband, about 28%. That’s a mortgage payment that includes property taxes.

    4. Ell*

      I am a non-profit worker in a big city. I currently spend about 40% of my income on housing, but have previously spent 75%. It was tough but I managed.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      I’m right at 10%, but I got a smoking deal on a house. If I’d had to buy a different house I’d be at 15-20%.

    6. neverjaunty*

      If you’re in some high cost housing nightmare place like SF or NYC, expect to pay close to half unless you’re astonishingly wealthy.

      1. Jennifer*

        I pay over 50% percent because we have a vacancy rate in very small decimal points here and very, very little flexibility about where else to move in town. (And I refuse to live in a shitty small town that’s cheap and in the middle of nowhere–I grew up in one of those and it sucked.) I’m downsizing to a smaller apartment so this will get slightly less bad, but my rent increases were creeping towards becoming 75% of my paychecks AND I have no idea if I’ll ever get a raise again and would definitely not know by the time my lease renewal was up.

        It’s insane where I live, though.

      1. Karo*

        I should mention that I rent, so there’s not really any upkeep or maintenance that I’m responsible for.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I should say, the check we send to the mortgage company is 25%. That includes the mortgage, property taxes, and homeowner’s insurance.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Ugh, I have to keep qualifying. That’s 25% of our base salaries. Once bonuses are included, it’s a little less, depending on the year. Maybe around 20-22%?

    9. Laura*

      I spend almost 40% of my income on housing, but since I have no debt and live well below my means, it works. I’m moving in with my boyfriend soon, which will save us both money in the long run. We are also cutting expenses when we do that, so we won’t have quite as much left over for fun. Oh well!

    10. Crylo Ren*

      I currently pay around 20% of my net income, but I also have a roommate so that helps offset the cost. I live in a high COL city :/

    11. LQ*

      40% of take home pay. I rent so no upkeep but it does increase each year. (At some point I may have to move because my neighborhood is getting cooler faster than I’m getting promoted. :( gr, I keep hoping for an annoying petty crime wave that will chase people out)

    12. Not Karen*

      23% but if I didn’t have any debt, I’d let myself go up to 30%, probably max 35%.

      1. Not Karen*

        Based on what others are saying, I should clarify: This is 23% of my gross income (which is what the 30% rule applies to). It would be 30% of net income. And I forgot utilities, which would make it 25% of gross and 33% of net.

        Note that I make median income and pay median rent for my town.

    13. The Rat-Catcher*

      18% of our take-home goes to rent and utilities. We live in a rural, cheap area (although our salaries are nothing to write home about either).

    14. AnotherFed*

      I was at just under 50% when I lived in a major city. Now, mortgage, property taxes, insurance, and utilities are about 20%, but we literally own and live on an active farm.

    15. Anon Moose*

      Yeah, that’s in a perfect world. It’s impossible in most large cities where most housing by definition is unaffordable. I spend like 45-50% of my monthly take home on rent as a young person in one of said large cities.

      1. Anon Moose*

        And that, by the by, is *with* several roommates. It would be close to 60% if I even thought of living on my own.

    16. Overeducated*

      A lot. A LOT. Like 50%. The depressing part is I got a better paid job, but may still wind up paying that much because of new job’s location.

      The good: it’s doable.

      The bad: otherwise there would be 20% available for savings and charity! We live frugally but don’t save or donate much.

    18. h.cowl*

      I’m married and rent a 1-bedroom apartment in a large city. We spend 23% of our gross income (no idea on net). Recently I was forced to take a big pay cut due to a layoff, so before that we were at 19%.

    19. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      I am at 37%.

      It’s a bit high, and I’ve made cutbacks in other areas of my life to compensate. But for me, having a safe, quiet, well-kept place to live helps to maintain my sanity.

    20. Milton*

      I also use the 30% as guideline…I wouldn’t feel comfortable paying much more.

      Right now I rent and I’m at 25% take home pay. I live in a county where the housing bubble will never burst. Sigh.

  99. Seal*

    Had a GREAT interview this week for a job I really want. Due to their interview schedule I won’t hear anything until next month. While I’m obviously anxious to hear whether or not I got the job, I’ve been surprisingly calm about the entire process. I hope that’s a good sign!

  100. Tim-Tim's Teapots, Inc.*

    Hiring managers: When do you check job candidates’ social media profiles?

    I’d think you would do so before offering an interview, but that’s just my guess.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Not a hiring manager, but now I am curious to know what HR people will say.

    2. Laura*

      Not a hiring manager, but I always got the impression that this was done VERY early in the hiring process, so as to not waste anyone’s time.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      We usually but not always google before a first in person interview.

      It used to be WAY more interesting, before people caught on to privacy switches and clean up efforts . WAY. We’re less interested now. :-)

      1. F.*

        First thing before I go anywhere with them, but I tend to find someone rather disturbing things, especially on facebook. I do make sure I am looking at the correct person, as I would not want to eliminate someone based on info about another person with the same name.

    4. AnotherFed*

      Usually around an interview – probably not before deciding to interview them, but definitely before deciding they are worth moving on to reference checks. But then, it’s pretty rare I find anything that makes me reconsider them as a candidate, and they’re going to get a pretty thorough background check anyway.

    5. Pumpkin scone*

      Our HR told us we could google people after phone interviews and before the on site interviews.

  101. LizB*

    I almost had a good discussion with my ridiculous manager this week! I raised a problem, he said it was valuable feedback and we’d discuss it the next day… and then never had time to discuss it, although I approached him several times. And now he’s on PTO for a week because he’s trying to use up his PTO before he leaves in a month. Awesome. Super.

    I was going to bring up in our discussion that I would be more effective if I were not being constantly asked for updates on my projects — I have all my notes updated in our case management system within 24 hours (usually less!), so he really doesn’t need to send me four or five texts/emails/phone calls each day, he could just read my notes. If I spend 30 minutes a day updating him on my progress, that’s 30 minutes I’m not spending making actual progress. Plus, when he leaves me a voicemail that just says “This is [manager], call me back ASAP,” (which is all of his voicemails) it really keeps me from being able to prioritize my tasks effectively — about 1 time out of 10, it’s something actually important, but 9 times out of 10 he’s asking for an update that’s already in my case notes or reminding me about a meeting that has been on my calendar for weeks. If he would just say what he’s calling about in the voicemail, I could triage my workload much more effectively.

    But I didn’t get to say any of those things, because he was too busy to meet with me. So I’m sure the micromanaging will continue until he leaves. I don’t have his last day circled in red on my personal calendar, but damn is it tempting…

  102. Anna Mouse*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I’m in a bit of a weird situation at work and hoping I can get some advice or maybe reassurance that this is all in my head? I just started a full time job at an org after temping part time for about a year. My department acts as a support staff for all the other larger departments here (think part admin work part public relations). One of the bigger depts produces reports and publications and I’ve recently been placed in charge of coordinating our end of that process. Many of these reports use boiler plate language, meaning that many of them likely have inaccuracies because the writer overlooks changes that need to be made. My boss brought this up while I was still a temp and she asked me for some ideas on how to handle this. I told her my thoughts and I guess I assumed she’d have a larger discussion with the managers from the bigger dept. But instead now she wants me to start pushing back on the individual workers whenever they hand is something. Basically fact checking all their work. I feel really weird about this because not only am I the new person and definitely the most junior person at this organization, but I also don’t have any experience in the work they’re doing over in the bigger department. I feel really strange about coming back at them and asking them to recheck certain elements when I don’t quite have the knowledge yet to know whether something was an error or not. Am I just being too cautious?

    1. Anna Mouse*

      I guess I should also mention that the times when I’ve pushed back I was told I was told by the workers from the larger department I was wrong even after my boss encouraged me to push back and it’s taken my boss speaking to their boss to get the changes made. So I feel super uncomfortable about the whole thing :/

      1. Ell*

        Ah, that changes things a bit. Can you frame it as more of a question, rather than “pushing back” – the latter is useful if you’re sure but if you’re not it can come across as odd.

        Something like “I checked X document and discovered that this is no longer true. Can you please confirm that we can update that language?”

        And then when they say you’re wrong, you can send them whatever proof/documentation you have?

        1. Anna Mouse*

          Thanks for your advice! I can try that the next time I email them. I think I’m also going to talk with my manager and see if there’s a better way I can approach this

    2. Ell*

      I’m in a similar position – I manage a reporting process but I don’t write many of the actual reports. We’ve also had a lot of turnover lately so I often get reports with incomplete or inaccurate info. What my boss has had me do is mark-up documents with questions/corrections. Corrections I knew how to make, I just did myself. For other things, I would add a comment to the doc asking about it and send back to the individual for them to fact check themselves.

      It was really hard for the first few reports because I felt like I had no idea what was or wasn’t correct – I just felt sort of blind during the process. I ended up asking about pretty much everything, and giving the person a heads up that I had a lot of questions. It was then on them to fix or double check the things I wasn’t sure about or didn’t feel comfortable fixing myself.

      It’s gotten a lot easier as time goes on to correct stuff because I have a better idea of the scope of the work we do. I do think it makes sense for the person at the end of the process (you) to be pushing back on individuals who wrote the stuff though. That process doesn’t seem especially unusual.

      Basically, fake it ’til you make it and it will definitely get easier when you’ve worked there longer and have more experience.

  103. GrumpyinLA*

    How do you handle the expectation of working from home on a vacation day? Especially where there is literally no one else who can cover for you?

    1. fposte*

      If you’re non-exempt, you confirm you’ll be paid (check to make sure you don’t get additional time for holidays).

      If you’re exempt, it depends, but “You do the work” is unfortunately a possible answer. Is it work that can’t be done later in the week? Is it your own position’s regular work?

      1. fposte*

        Oh, sorry, I was thinking of Memorial Day because of the discussion upthread! For a using-my-PTO vacation day, Jillociraptor’s advice is of course the way to go.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Am I understanding your issue correctly: you’re taking a vacation day and your manager or others in your workplace assume that you’ll be responsive or be working during the day, just not in the office?

      In the short term, there are a couple of options. One is just not responding. Assuming they know that you’re out of the office with sufficient time to get you things before you go, it’s on them if they need you. Another is monitoring correspondence at specific times (like 15 minutes at 10, 2, and 5) and tackling anything that will truly sidetrack your business if you don’t address it, while ignoring everything else.

      In the long term, you need to understand your manager’s real expectations, and probably write those down for both of you to reference. You should also consider how you can cross-train a few people to be able to deal with the most likely issues that will come up when you’re out, so that you’re not the only person who can cover certain tasks.

      Some managers really do expect that you’ll be available even on vacation. Others don’t but seem like they do, until you explicitly clarify!

  104. AdminSue*

    Happy Friday! Today is my LAST day at incredibly toxic place!! Thanks to Alison and this site I will be starting at a new company doing AP 6/7/16.

  105. Ama*

    In the last month, I have had to tell every single person in one of our departments individually about the existence of a constantly updated directory for our volunteer base, available on our shared drive. This directory has existed for over a year and I now mention it at our monthly staff meeting about every other month as a reminder. So not only has this department not listened to me, they haven’t even told each other about this resource.

    The kicker? It’s our Communications department.

    1. Jennifer*

      Heh. We have a special tool designed for some of our audience that’s rarely if ever used. At the last group meeting of this audience, it was all, “Has anyone used it?” *crickets*
      Then we had someone bypassing using the tool because it e-mailed people notifications and people started complaining about being notified. Oh, for crying out loud.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I’m going to vent about my sad experience. Sorry if I’m playing “Topper” again.

        At my former office they came up with a new proprietary software system. I was a very low-level clerical assistant and one of my many job duties was to perform basic customer information data entry. As soon as the new software system was implemented I was bombarded with phone calls from the branch offices claiming that the data I had imputed wasn’t there. The data was in fact there, but because the new software is clunky, un-intuitive, inefficient and difficult to use they couldn’t figure out how to find it. (You couldn’t even find the “Help” feature if you don’t know where it was hidden.)

        I talked several people through how to use it over the phone. Then I started referring the complainers to the I.T. Help Desk. At first, the Help Desk didn’t really have much of a clue about how to actually use the new system or where to look to find the client information, but they did eventually seem to figure it out. Then I started getting a whole bunch of phone calls from people at the branches saying that no one was at the Help Desk and that their phone messages and emails were not being returned and that the customers were either on their way or already there and they couldn’t find the the customer information. It was an emergency!

        I talked several more people through how to use the new software. Then, in desperation, I typed up a 2-page set of instructions that were dated and that specifically stated that the software and procedures might change in the future and that they should contact the Help Desk if they had problems. The branch office people seemed to like and understand the instructions I typed up and emailed them and everything was fine for about 3 months. (They really were very well-written.)

        Then someone at one of the branch offices forwarded an email to the Help Desk which had my instructions attached to it. (They didn’t do it to get me in trouble, they were asking the Help Desk a question that was completely unrelated to my instructions.) And the I.T. Department went ballistic!

        Apparently, I had infringed upon their territory and now there would be copies of instructions floating around in the company’s email system, and possibly in individual employees’ computer files that might become outdated in the future. I sort of get it, but I didn’t really know how else to let the branch employees know how to access the customer data.

        There had been a training for branch supervisors, but few of them bothered to pass the information onto their employees and the organization has very high rates of turnover (even among branch supervisors), so they were always training new people for the first time. The situation ended with me being chastised and having to promise never to email any written instructions to anyone ever again. And if the branch offices couldn’t reach anyone at the Help Desk to help them, tough.

        Thanks for letting me vent!

  106. Bananas*

    Hello Everyone!
    I’m looking for a little advice. I am a manager of a team of part time employees. My bosses were just in town, and we have talked about ways to improve productivity on my team, and basically we need to tighten up the ship. Cut down on team members getting up to stretch their legs too frequently, getting coffee, taking long(ish) breaks, they aren’t really entitled to a break, their shifts are only about four hours long. Obviously, if they need to use the restroom, that’s fine, but it’s adding up. I’ve had kind of a relaxed atmosphere with them for a long time, because they were getting their work done, but in the past few months that doesn’t seem to be working any more. How would you facilitate the kind of culture change that is needed to shift the team? And how would you deliver that kind of feedback? I have some instincts on how I want to do it, but I’m a little nervous about toughening up with them and would love feedback.

    1. Ell like L*

      I think you need to have one-on-ones with your team. Be transparent about why the change needs to happen (you or your bosses have noticed a productivity shift) and lay out realistic expectations. Does a couple of bathroom breaks and one five mental break per shift make sense? If so, let folks know that that’s about what they should be aiming for. Then watch and folks who aren’t taking the feedback to heart need another convo.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      The only way I would do it is by focusing on the work and goals and meeting them.

      If Sally’s a star performer who bangs out 6 hours worth of work in a 4 hour shift, you or your boss don’t (well shouldn’t) give a rat’s ass if she stretches her legs for five minutes. And, if Jane’s a poor performer but doesn’t move from her desk, her lack of movement hasn’t contributed thing one to your overall goals.

      Now: I get it. I go a little crazy when I see certain people hanging out & chatting too often and too long. I might ask their managers “what the deal with these social butterflies? do they not have enough work to do?”. The answer might be a performance issue, it might be that they do need more work, or it might be an entire mis-perception on my part.

      What I don’t do is say “too many people are walking around and chatting, we have to fix this!”. What we do do is correct any issues at the employee level (focused on work performance, not their socialization %).

    3. BRR*

      Focus on the results you need. Telling people how they should work is not going to help because we all have different working styles and nickel and diming people’s time won’t result in them producing more.

  107. N.J.*

    After a string of frustrating jobs in the past few years and a temping stint, I start Tuesay at a full-time position with decent pay, with a great group of people. Woohoo!

  108. Anon Moose*

    I did submit this to Alison previously, but its time sensitive so I’m going to post it here instead? Its a question about whether I should tell my boss about a coworker who is unpleasant and affecting how the org is run/everyone else’s morale.

    I work at a small nonprofit. For context, the organization is heavy on program staff, who are very very busy, and those few of us on the organizational/ support side wear many hats. Thus, there is one person I’ll call Gina who has a job that functions as a bit of an organizational catch-all, which includes some HR tasks, operations tasks, and grant compliance/ reporting.

    Gina has been with the organization for several years and she is just very unpleasant. I make an effort to be polite to her but she treats me, and everyone else, pretty badly. If you ask her a question or request she perform any job related task she will invariably try to tell you to do it yourself or just make a really big deal about it or even be mean/rude to the person who asked. She will also often straight up ignore people. So the situation now is that everyone (except my boss, the only person she is respectful to) goes out of their way to not have to talk to her or ask her anything. Say “you have to ask Gina” or “talk to Gina” and everyone cringes and avoids, tries to do everything to go around her. I’m more straight foward generally, so I’ve had a few run ins with her over the past year where I’ve been berated for asking a question or bringing up an all-office issue. Its an issue because the nature of her work touches on a lot of potential problem areas (hr, the falling-apart facility).

    Is there any appropriate time to address this with my boss? Both she and I report directly to the executive director. And if so, how do I do it professionally- with the caveat that I do NOT want to address it with Gina directly (and we don’t have HR)? I can’t comment on the quality of any of her other work and I don’t think anything I’ve experienced rises to a firing level. But I do think its a big elephant in the room problem.

    I’m also almost on my way out on this job (I’m starting graduate school in the fall) so would my eventual exit interview/conversation in a month work? Or should I just accept it that its annoying, but just one of those workplace things and not say anything at all?

    1. fposte*

      I would say it could be worth mentioning in an exit interview; frame it as lost productivity because of all the circumventing. (If you were staying there, though, I’d say you’d have to talk to Gina directly first.)

      1. Anon Moose*

        Yeah, if I had to address it with Gina directly, honestly I would just not do it. I don’t have any authority over her and she is not someone with whom i am at all comfortable talking to/ giving criticism to. Her reaction to minor, job related queries or differences of opinion in the past few months has either led to me being a. Completely ignored (as in I am standing there and she does not respond) b. Been tersely and rudely dismissed (in person or via email) or c. Being insulted or shouted at. This has happened because I do actually ask her for things when I need them. But it gives me a pretty good idea she’d jump to c. at the slightest hint of criticism.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      Ugh, that sucks. We had a “Gina” too where any and all complaints about them were ignored by management. Then when a very valuable employee left and said “Gina” was one of the big reasons they were leaving, management finally got the message. “Gina” is still here, but had a very serious talking-to and has really improved over the last few months. I’m with fposte on the exit interview angle–you might help improve things for the others at least.

  109. Anonymous Desk Jockey*

    Any advice or words of wisdom to help me mentally deal with a boss who is now barely in the office? It’s not the not coming in so much as the telling us she’s coming in then the excuses that follow, the same repeated stories about oversleeping, losing track of time, the long commute, and “I decided to take a meeting from home because (insert any previously mentioned thing here.) This occurs on a daily basis now. She emails us to explain why she’s so late and says she is on her way now. Then 30-60 minutes later sends another email explaining that no she is not on her way because (lost track of time, fell asleep, forgot she had a meeting and had to stay home to take it, left the house without some important item, ad nauseum) and will be working from home. The worst was when she exorted we all attend an early morning (pre-8 am!) meeting in person and everyone arrived on time except for her. She called in and blamed traffic. The weird thing was everyone else had made it. Traffic was bad, but it’s always bad and everyone else driving in the same bad traffic coming similar distances made it. Then at the end of the meeting announced how long she’s been driving. I did the math and the real reason she didn’t make the meeting is because she left herself only 45 minutes for a 40 mile commute that is an hour without traffic, and normally runs anywhere from 90-120 minutes for rush hour. That silently pissed the rest of us off. One co-worker had even come in on her normal work-from-home day and had to make special arrangements with her husband to handle all of the morning family business that morning because she left her house at the butt crack of dawn. I can’t even.

    It also got awkward on the call because she was not able to read the body language in the room while she was talking.

    This is such a morale killer. How can I help it not be a morale killer for my colleagues and myself because I have no control over her behavior and am not her manager. Her manager is not based in our office. That’s how she’s getting away with this so much.

    1. Laura*

      Do you have contact with HER manager? If so, you could ask for a 1:1 meeting and ask how you should handle this. That way you can DELICATELY bring the issues to the surface. I agree, this kind of management is totally bad.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      I’m not even sure this is a bad manager. She sounds like a person who is having a breakdown.

      There’s no reason for her to have told you 3/4 of that. We could call her a bad manager if she said she’d be a meeting by 9 and didn’t show up until 11, but who tells their direct reports that they fell back asleep, or lost track of time and that’s why they are hours late?

      IDK If it’s not a terrible gamble with your livelihood, I think it’s appropriate to raise “I think something might be wrong with Lucinda” to her manager. If you think that’s too risky to you, then you might have to wait for her to crumble all the way down. She can’t sustain her job forever like this.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Hmmm, I don’t mean saying “Lucinda is having a breakdown” but…..this is erratic behavior and, in a perfect world, Lucinda’s boss needs to know she’s behaving erratically. You’d need to focus on the facts and the effects though and your overall concern for how it’s impacting people and projects and the future of the company.

    3. Anonymous Desk Jockey*

      Funny story. I’m so tired of these emails, when I got another today I didn’t read past the first sentence that basically said “I hate my commute and refuse to do it again so I’m staying home.” (Not a direct quote but pretty close). The next part told everyone to knock off work early for the long weekend. I only know because one person who stayed caught me walking around the office 2 hours post the early quitting time and asked why I was still there. DOH!

      I wouldn’t have left that early anyhow. Friday is the best day to get things done and i refuse to leave work only to go home and work, especially on a long weekend. I want to walk out of the office and not have to worry about unfinished business!

  110. Emmy*

    Okay, asking for husband, about sign-on bonuses: Is it usual for you to get half at six months and the other half at a year? This work is also season-dependent, (High overtime, long hours, weekends all summer, work drops off late fall) so is it possible he could knock himself out all summer long, and then get laid off before he gets to six months, or get to six months and then get laid off before getting the other half? Obviously, he’d ask that before accepting a job, but he’d like to know some norms if anyone knows any before going in. (Not in California. Just your regular old at-will state)

    1. CAA*

      This is highly dependent on the industry and the firm. However, I do think it’s more usual to get at least part of the bonus up front. It’s not really a signing bonus if the first half comes after 6 months of employment. That’s more like a retention bonus.

      On the other hand though, it is common to be required to pay back all or part of your signing bonus if you leave an employer voluntarily within a specific period after being hired.

      Maybe he could negotiate a provision in the offer letter that says if he’s terminated not for cause prior to 6 months employment, then he’s entitled to the first half of the bonus payment.

    2. BRR*

      I think it’s more usual to get some or all of it upfront and have to pay it back if you leave. I would not accept the job (unless you have to) if there wasn’t something in there about what happens if they terminate employment.

    3. Emmy*

      Thank you both. That will give him a better idea of what to say if he decides to apply there.

  111. A Person*

    Just looking for some quick advice. I’ve found a new job that seems like a much better fit and I’m super excited – in fact I’m so excited I forgot to talk about upcoming vacation before I accepted the job offer.

    I start in mid-June, and I have a small trip in early July where I’d like to take 1-2 days off (but I’m flexible and could take nothing). I have a bigger trip in mid-August that really requires 4 business days off and the plane tickets have already been purchased.

    The company has an “unlimited” vacation policy so the issue isn’t having the vacation time, it’s simply when to bring it up. Do I email my new manager and ask him about these trips before I start in mid-June, or should I wait until I’m actually working there? Is it reasonable to try to get the 1-2 days in July or should I not bother? I was thinking of asking if other people are going to be gone anyway (since it makes more sense to take the time off if the people training me will also be out of the office), but maybe that’s not necessary.

    Would appreciate advice/opinions!

    1. ThatGirl*

      I would not take time in July, since that’s so close to your start and it’s not all bought and paid for. Save your capital for the mid-August trip, and I would probably mention it right away. That’s typically something to bring up during the offer stage.

    2. Laura*

      Definitely don’t take the days off in July. The general rule of thumb is to not take time off in the first three months on the job (with illnesses and emergencies being the exceptions). You don’t want to run the risk of looking bad. Just save that up for your trip in August, which obviously you’ll go on because it was pre-planned.

    3. BRR*

      I would email now and say you were so excited about the offer you forgot to ask about a preplanned trip. If you can skip the July trip I would.

      I would not ask if other people are going to be gone.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Yeah, you kinda screwed up there because the window was in the time you were accepting the job. After the deal is sealed, asking either or both of those times of is not good form in most cultures. Not within 90 days, and especially not since you knew in advance.

      So, go for August I guess. I think it’s better to email the hiring manager now, apologize that in your excitement you forgot to clear this during the offer stage, and ask if it is okay. It very well might be but asking for two time periods so soon is pushing it.

      Hope everything works out great!

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Yes, I would only ask for the August time off. (Unless July was something like a wedding or family reunion)

      2. A Person*

        I know people like updates, so here’s one super quick: I took everyone’s advice to not take the July time (it’s a bummer, but I’ll probably still do the trip, just as a weekend-only one).

        I emailed him about the August time and he said there’s no problem at all with it, so hooray! (Honestly I would have been really surprised if there was a problem given the way the company is, but I’m glad people pushed me to email him so it’s not hanging over my head anymore.)

  112. greenbeans*

    When someone resigns, is it somewhat normal for a manager to call a special team meeting and announce it there? I noticed my manager did that the last time someone resigned on our team. I felt like the resigning employee was a bit put on the spot.

    The meeting was called last minute–our manager rounded us all up with no warning, and he started it by saying, “Someone on this team is leaving.” He didn’t say who, so my co-worker raised his hand. It seemed a little dramatic, and my manager does tend towards dramatics. (On a side note, we work in a normal office in relaxed, low-stress environment, and we’re not saving babies or anything.) Although most people were friendly and curious, one person seemed truly upset, and kept saying, “No. NO! You can’t leave! We just got you!” I kind of want to avoid all this.

    Would it be out of of line or odd to ask my manager whether I can visit each of our team members in person and tell them privately?

    1. fposte*

      I think the meeting for this purpose sounds weird, but it’s also weird not to have any communication from the manager about departure. Can you ask the manager to do the announcement in an email?

    2. Laura*

      Yes, but the only times I’ve been part of that, the employee was already gone. This was at a company that showed you the door right away. It seems very awkward and uncomfortable to do this with the employee there!

      Definitely express your desires to your manager. Handling this privately is the way to go.

    3. Crylo Ren*

      My team (7-8 people) at my last employer did that on a pretty regular basis, though not with the actual person in the room so there wasn’t really any danger of the resigning employee being put on the spot.
      I would ask if the announcement could be made over email instead.

    4. Joanna*

      I don’t think it would be out of line to request to do it yourself in private conversations, but I can see why the boss may want to do it in a meeting so that everyone knows and there’s less gossip and speculation.

    5. Bea W*

      That would be really weird in any place I’ve worked, but it is normal to mention it in a regular staff/project meeting. I don’t think your request is odd at all.

  113. Caledonia*

    I’m just feeling defeated.

    I’ve had 3 auto-rejections this week but the last one was especially annoying because I was rejected for not meeting a requirement – having a degree. I explained that I was studying towards one and will graduate next summer (with hons). In fact, if I wanted to, I could graduate this summer without hons. I’ve done most of the job in a previous one.

    Apparently, because of the economic downturn here, that’s what is happening all over the city. If they can week out applicants, however arbitrarily, they are doing so.

    I’m just fed up and I am desperately, hopelessly broke. As in, I’m going to default on everything in the next few weeks because I have no money.

    1. Ell like L*

      I am so sorry you’re in this situation. It’s an incredibly frustrating and scary one. I’m sending you good thoughts. But I think you can also push through this and find something if you keep going (easier said than done, I know).

      I do think that it’s important if you’re desperate to get a job to make sure you’re spending time and energy on jobs that are attainable. If it’s a hard-line requirement to have a degree, then working towards a degree means you don’t have that requirement (yet). Make sure you’re applying for jobs that are a reasonably good fit for you. Remember, you’re one candidate among many, so they necessarily have to weed out applicants and narrow it down, it’s not necessarily arbitrary. The better fit you are, the more likely you are to be interviewed.

      I think it might be really useful to you to find someone else to look over your resume and cover letter to see how you can revise it, that’s what helped me get re-started after I received a bunch of rejections. It gave me a second wind, and I hope it does the same for you.

      In the meantime, have you tried pet sitting or baby sitting? Temping? Anything that might take a little financial pressure off will help. Good luck! I’m sending you the best of vibes.

      1. Caledonia*

        The job I referenced was obtainable. Unfortunately, the industry on which my city and area depends on has completely collapsed, in Feb it was reported that over 10,000 jobs have been lost in the past year. In a less competitive market, I think I would have at least gotten an interview.

        I’m trying temping but with all the competition I never get a temping opportunity. I can’t babysit – I’ve never done it and don’t feel confident doing it. Pet sitting…I’ve not considered but I just don’t see it working. I don’t like dogs, I don’t drive, I can’t even afford to take the bus! Which makes it a very small area.

    2. Not Karen*

      Try smaller/mom-and-pop stores that still have paper applications and most people won’t think about applying to. When most people think jobs, they think Starbucks, not Joe’s Coffee. You say you’re in school – are you eligible for work study? Can you get a job on campus? Can you take out additional student loans to cover your living expenses (not normally a good idea, but if you have to, do it)?

      In the meantime:
      -Defaulting on what? If these are student loans, they should be in deferment or forbearance. These programs exist precisely so people who can’t afford to pay their loans don’t have to default on them. In fact, if you’re still in school, these loans should automatically be deferment.
      -Use the food pantry and other community resources to decrease food costs.
      -If possible, now is the time to suck up your pride and ask family for help.

      1. Caledonia*

        Not Karen – I study long distance part time.

        I will default on my mortgage, bills, loan payment for personal reasons. I get a loan payment for my course but it only covers my course cost with the course provider – I never see the money.

        1. Snow*

          You can get help with the interest only portion of the mortgage if you are on benefits it is called Support for Mortgage Interest (SMI) if you want to google it and see if you are eligible. I’d contact your loan provider and see if they can provide a payment holiday if not I’d contact somewhere like StepChange who can provide templates and often convince lenders to take a nominal payment until your circumstances improve.

          The OU used to allow you to get the degree (without hons) yet still do another level 3 to top up to hons so that might be an option for you so you can claim the none hons degree sooner but still finish like you planned?

          Office based temp competition can be fierce where I live but call centre ones are easier to get even not ideal – is there anything like that locally?

          Hope things improve soon!

    3. Megs*

      I hear you on the rough job market – it’s sucks and I’m sorry you’re stuck. I know a couple of people who went through foreclosure in the last decade and managed to bounce back, but it’s still incredibly rough. I went back to school in 2009 myself and haven’t been able to find permanent employment in my field yet, but thankfully there’s plenty of mind-numbing but reasonably-paying temp work in my field. Good luck!

    4. Overeducated*

      I am rooting for you. This sounds scary and I hope luck is on your side soon despite your local job market.

  114. Anon13*

    Some background: I’ve been thinking about trying to make a career change for a few years and I’m finally ready to start real work toward doing so. I’m currently working at a law office (not as a lawyer) and have done so most of my career. I’d like to start working toward a career as a librarian, ideally as a public librarian working with teens/older children/young adults. (I know I might not find my ideal position, but that’s what I’d like to work toward.)

    My questions:
    1) I’m at a complete loss as to whom to ask for letters of recommendation for my grad school application. The program that I’d like to apply to requires three letters. Unfortunately, having graduated from college 11 years ago, I’ve lost touch with most of my professors. A few likely vaguely remember me, but I seriously doubt any could write a substantive letter of recommendation at this point. I will likely ask my former manager, but she’s the only person I can think of. I fear repercussions at work if I ask my current manager. (It’s a small firm and he wants people who are very committed to working here long term, so I’m afraid he might let me go if I hint that I’m trying to switch career paths, even if the switch wouldn’t be immediate.) Unfortunately, those are really the only two professional positions I’ve held. I’m really just at a loss for whom else to ask. Any suggestions from those who attended grad school 10+ years after college or those who work in admissions?
    2) Is there a hiring bias against mostly online programs? The program I’m looking in to offers all of its classes online. Most classes are offered in person as well and I would likely take a few classes in person, but I would take at least half of the classes online (probably more).
    3) What kind of jobs should I be looking into at libraries now? I know this seems like a question I could easily find the answer to on my own, but it seems like every time I’ve checked job postings at local libraries for the past 6-8 months, every job has been janitorial or has required a master’s degree. Is it just that the jobs aren’t opening up right now, or are there really very few jobs at libraries that don’t require a master’s? (I’m committed to getting the advanced degree either way, but I’d love to start working in a library now.) I’ve looked in to volunteer opportunities, as well, but I would love to start doing this full time. On a side note, would it be difficult for me to get hired for a job that doesn’t require a master’s if they know I’m committed to pursuing one?

    I apologize for the wall of text and lengthy number of questions; any guidance would be much appreciated!

    1. bb-great*

      Online programs are fairly common in the library field. The only drawback is the chance that in an online program you may have less exposure to jobs/internships/networking than you would on campus, but if you are close enough to the campus to take some classes in person, that shouldn’t be a problem. Even if you were 100% online it’s doable, it would just take more effort to seek those kinds of opportunities out.

      And welcome to your first taste of the employment outlook in the library field!! ;) It’s just hard to find full time jobs in libraries, period, and that goes double if you are near a library school. It may be that a lot of that kind of paraprofessional work is being done at the libraries in your area by library students working part-time or doing internships. Would it be feasible for you to work two part time jobs? If so, ask your prospective library school (and, if possible, the students there) what kind of employment opportunities there are for students. The more library experience you have, the better off you will be in your job search.

      I don’t think working towards a Master’s will necessarily be a bad thing to employers, since most programs are at least 1.5-2 years long full-time, so you will be making a certain commitment even if you leave as soon as you graduate (and in all likelihood it would take you several months after graduation to find a librarian job anyway).

      1. Anon13*

        Thank you for the advice. I was under the impression that online programs were fairly common, but I worried when I ran across a few blogs posts written by librarians who view online programs negatively. And yes, the school is about 45 minutes away from my current job and about an hour and 15 minutes (maybe an hour and a half) away from where I live. So, while it’s not super-close, it’s definitely doable to try to attend a few classes in person.

        The info on the difficult of finding jobs (for all those in the field) is kind of what I expected! I was kind of trying to avoid working two part-time jobs, but it’s doable if need be. I get very few benefits at work as it is (no health insurance, only a small amount of PTO), so I wouldn’t have to worry about the loss of benefits that results from working two part-time jobs instead of one full-time one.

        Thanks again!

    2. fposte*

      1) Are there clients, co-workers, stakeholders you could turn to?
      2) No, not really–library schools were some of the first to offer online programs. If the school has a good rep, the school has a good rep (conversely, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t).
      3) Start volunteering now. If a job comes up, great, but you really, really want some experience when you’re applying, and openings are, as you noticed, few and far between.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, duh–if you start volunteering now, you’ll have a volunteer supervisor who’s a librarian, and that’s the most relevant recommendation of all.

        1. Anon13*

          I’m not sure about current clients/coworkers. I don’t have a ton of client contact in this job and I only have a few coworkers, all of whom have been here much longer than I have, so I worry about them saying something to my boss. (I get along great with them, but I know their loyalty is to him, not me.) There are a few coworkers from my last job I could reach out to. Thanks for the suggestion!

          I’m glad to hear that there’s not a large bias against online schools/schools that offer online programs. The school/program as a whole has a pretty good reputation, especially in this area, which is where I plan to stay.

          And yes, I am going to complete my volunteer application tonight! I live in one county and work in another, with a third very close by and I wasn’t sure which would work best, but your words gave me the kick in the butt I needed to just pick one and apply! So, thanks for that.

    3. Lily Evans*

      Have you looked at academic library positions? I know you said you want to work in a public library, but IME there are more positions in academic libraries that don’t require a master’s and at least that would give you hands-on experience with library systems. But the field is super competitive in general and people don’t tend to leave library jobs too often, so if you’re in a smaller area that could be a problem. And even people with master’s degrees are having a tough time finding positions, so the chances of being hired for a position with that as a requirement are probably slim.

      1. Anon13*

        For some odd reason, I thought positions in academic libraries would be more difficult to find, so thank you. There are five decent-sized colleges/universities in my area, as well as two community colleges, so that might be a good place to look. I’m not in a huge area, but it’s not too small either, so I’m hoping that I could find something within a few years of graduating. I know it would be difficult to find something immediately.

        FWIW, I just looked it up, and, though the nearest large city is on the smaller side at the 51st largest in the U.S., the combined statistical area is the 15th largest in the U.S. (both by population), so, while it’s not one of the biggest metro areas, it’s at least a decent size.

        1. Alice*

          I think you’re going to be great in any reference librarian role because of your default move to look it up! Good luck on your transition.

  115. Laura*

    I work in admissions. Your previous managers would be good references, as well as anybody who’s worked with you in a volunteer capacity (especially supervisors). And it might be worth reaching out to old professors– they have longer memories than you may think! And there is no indication on degrees about the program being online, btw. Nobody will know unless you tell them specifically.

    1. Anon13*

      Thanks for your response! I’m going to try to reach out to two former professors next week. I guess the worst that could happen is them saying they don’t feel comfortable writing letters, so it’s definitely worth a quick e-mail or phone call.

      And, duh, I didn’t even think about the fact that no one would know the degree was through mostly online courses unless I told them. I tend to worry about every possible bad scenario way too much!

  116. Millennialista*

    I’m usually a lurker here (I believe I’ve posted once or twice) but I adore how smart and witty both Alison and all of you commenters always are. Thus, I’ve been a little nervous to post my “silly” question; the LW writer who wrote in about her supervisor crush has made me feel more comfortable seeking sympathy/advice from the commentariat haha.

    Do any of you single (or did any of you once-single) people struggle with crushes on non-supervisor, age-appropriate, also-single coworkers?

    I’ve only been at my current company a little over a year, but I’ve developed a good reputation and am well-liked by my coworkers and I don’t think it would (at this point) be entirely out of line to date a coworker. I’m by no means looking for a fling (zero judgement, just not at all my style, as I’d love to get married in the next several years) so I wouldn’t be risking a work relationship just for giggles.

    Anyway, I’m a woman and most of my post-college friends are also women. I find it so hard to meet guys. I am involved in volunteer work, community organizations, church, and go to bars, sit at coffee shops to read/write, and have even used a dating app or two. The most eligible guys I know work with me. I get along with them great at company retreats, receive my fair share of completely g-rated funny emails from them, and know these particular guys are single since we are social media friends and share the occasional funny dating failures. But it can be a little emotionally draining to hear casual comments from a coworker like, “Oh Eligible Bachelor 1 was mentioning how sweet and cool you are,” or “Btw, Eligible Bachelor 2 told me you’re the coolest and so smart” and wonder, “So do I have a chance or this is just a comment on my professionalism? Plus, coworkers I KNOW are not romantically interested in me make the same comments with frequency.

    My office isn’t even huge; we just have a distracting number of cute young guys haha. This is sounds like such a first-world problem (and I’ve experienced my fair share of worse life problems, I promise) but I want so badly to be married and settle down and build a life with someone and it is frustrating to be surrounded by guys and not know how to jump to the next level.

    Anyone here been in this spot? Regardless, thanks for reading my little rant, and happy weekend!

    1. Friday Brain*

      I did, back in the day. Ended up marrying the guy. :) He didn’t ask me out until his last day at work though. All nervous about it and everything; it was so cute. Probably good that he waited though because he was a supervisor (not my direct boss though) and I was an intern.

      1. Millennialista*

        I love hearing how couples met and always find it encouraging because the stories are all so different; thanks for sharing!

    2. greenbeans*

      Yes, definitely. Not so much anymore, but in my first job right out of college, I had all kinds of crushes. I worked in a call center with other freshly-graduated people, and it was pretty common for people to date each other in that environment. I dated a couple different people. When one ended kind of abruptly and oddly, I just shrugged it off and it wasn’t a huge deal. (The benefit of being 22, I guess.) I think it was a combination of young age, a mostly age-homogeneous environment, and the fact that this job wasn’t going to be long-term for most of us.

      I stopped seeing co-workers as potential dates when I got serious jobs that I saw as part of my career. It seemed like too much was at stake, and I also got less able to easily brush off breakups as I got older. (Boo.) Also, I learned an important less at one point: Don’t have too much to drink at a company party if you’re attracted to a co-worker but have decided, for professional reasons or whatever, not to pursue it. Being a little tipsy made me super flirty. I still cringe.

      It’s so hard to meet people. I feel ya.

      2. Millennialista*

        Thanks a bunch. It makes me feel sane to know others have been in the same spot and feel the same frustration over how hard it is to meet people to date! Over the years, I’ve been told by more than a few non-coworker guys that I’m “hard to read” and “give mixed signals”… maybe a little tipsy flirting would do my dating life more harm than good (kidding, mostly, haha).

    3. Laura*

      I met my boyfriend at work! Because we were under the same director, we were technically supposed to report the relationship to HR, but I quit right before we went “official” so we didn’t have to. I’m so happy I found him– he’s the best thing that came out of that job, hands-down.

    4. burnout*

      Met a cute guy at work. Dated. Married him. 30 year anniversary coming up.

      As long as you are not violating a company policy…. why not?

      2. Mreasy*

        I’m marrying my former work crush/romance in a week! We were violating a company policy that our head of HR openly disliked, so we kept things quiet until I left. But seriously, you spend so much time at work, it doesn’t make sense to eliminate all those cute single guys from consideration. :)

    5. Nicole*

      I had a crush on a coworker 15 years ago. We had an after work gathering once and I was positively giddy after spending time with him outside of work. Never thought too seriously about it, though – I was living with my boyfriend at the time and my crush was married. Then shortly after the gathering he quit and moved to another state. A mutual friend, who knew I liked the guy, told me about it and I remember thinking “wow, mid-life crisis”. Several months after THAT, I had broken up with my boyfriend, my crush moved back to our state, and our mutual friend gave me his contact details. I emailed my crush, we started hanging out, and eventually got married. He’s my best friend and the best man I’ve ever known. So you never know…

  118. Susie*

    How should be doing exit interviews? HR or the direct manager? In this case, the direct manager is also the company owner and president.

    2. Dawn*

      HR, or a manager who is neutral to the entire thing and can objectively give feedback to the company as to why the employee is leaving.

      1. Susie*

        Thank you. We were unsure if having the president/owner be in would be a good idea because we want good feedback to take to the owner and we aren’t sure the leaving employee would give that to the “big boss”. :)

        1. Laura*

          Noooooo way. It should just be the employee and the HR rep. Even then, employees don’t necessarily HAVE to do exit interviews at all.

    3. Pwyll*

      This also depends on the company’s purpose in doing them. If the “interview’ is really just final paperwork, and 1-2 questions so they can check the box that they asked why you’re leaving, I’m not sure it matters (so long as the person doing it is aware of what paperwork is required).

      If the company actually wants to use the feedback to improve the workplace, then what Dawn said.

  119. AdAgencyChick*

    What are your favorite interview questions to suss out whether someone will really take ownership of projects, rather than just going through the motions? I’m in a situation where the project management team leaves much to be desired, meaning that my team needs to do more following up and asking for what they need (repeatedly) than is normal. Of course we’re working on working out the kinks with project management, but in the meantime, for the slot I’m hiring for, I need someone who won’t sit around waiting for the official OK to do something from the project manager. I want someone who will notice that we’re getting too close to the deadline for comfort and ask questions or track down information that would normally be provided by project management — i.e., someone who cares enough about the project not to let it slide just because someone else is.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ask about times when they’ve done it in the past. Get them talking about past projects and their role and how they approached it. If you ask hypotheticals (“how would you handle X?”) it’s too easy for someone to BS.

  120. Jillociraptor*

    I feel like I’m underutilized in my current position. I’m in a support role to a very high-functioning person, everything from scheduling to project management, and while I know I’m adding value (heck, I even won a recognition award), it feels like a pretty big step back in responsibility and complexity from my previous job.

    On the one hand, this gives me lots of brain space for my side hustle, and I’m making the same amount of money for about half the work, so maybe I should accept it by looking at the big picture. But on the other hand, I’ve been here less than a year and I’m already bored and frustrated by lack of opportunity to use my skills.

    Any advice for how to raise this conversation with my manager? Does it sound snobbish or presumptuous to say that I’m feeling underutilized?

    1. A Person*

      Have you already identified things you think you could help with but aren’t part of your job?

      I think it’s reasonable to tell your manager that you feel underutilized, but it looks even better if you’ve already identified possibilities. It also increases the chances of you getting to actually *do* something – your manager may not have the time to find things for you to do, or may not have their own ideas. Coming into the meeting with some thoughts, even if they are vague, would be my recommendation.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        Yeah, I can definitely think of a few things. That’s a great suggestion, thanks!

  121. intldevt*

    Silliest complaint ever that I just need to get off my chest: we have a summer intern who I share an office with. He sits in my peripheral vision and HE WON’T STOP STRETCHING.

    I am approaching bitch eating crackers mode and it’s completely unfair of me.

    1. Joanna*

      That’s not a silly complaint. While you probably can’t stop him, constant movement in your peripheral vision can indeed be really distracting

  122. Mazzy*

    An afternoon of going through resumes/cover letters and some things are sticking out

    – job hopping with no common thread in the jobs. I know I am going to get flack for this, but I’m curious what job seekers like this are thinking. There are too many applicants like this and they all look the same, three years as an investment analyst then a year in customer service in media then a year and a half as a bookkeeper. What is your goal? What do you want besides a paying job? What are you good at?
    – Completely irrelevant information in the cover letter. Why are you talking about leadership skills for a non-management role? Why is your whole cover letter about your learning potential when you already have work experience? I could deal with this if relevant information was included. Why not include three points as to why are applying?
    – no explanation for why they want to switch to our industry. Some people say they are “willing” to work in other industries, but that sounds like I’m going to have to hand feed you everything. What did you learn about it before applying?
    – geographically all over the place. I have loads of applicants who worked in 3+ cities and went to school somewhere else, some don’t have an address on the resume. What makes me think you are committed to staying here? Heck, what makes me think you even are here?

    And then the usual faux pas such as cliches like this or one line cover letters:

    “Start a meaningful career path that will utilize my skills and experiences,while giving me room for professional and personal growth”

    Anyone looking for a job, it’s no so much about wanting to discard your resume as it is finding a reason to keep you in the running, and most of the resumes/cover letters I have right now are so all over the place that I have no reason to pursue their candidacy.

    1. Dawn*

      I got a really, REALLY good resume today and was SO happy to pass it on for review. I wanted to call the person myself and go “Good job! Your resume is awesome!” It was ONE PAGE! It was well formatted! I could see exactly what skills the person had and what they’d accomplished with those skills! SO GOOD.

      1. Mazzy*

        Hi, can I ask why the one-page thing mattered? Mine is almost two pages, I’m in my late 30s and accomplished alot at certain jobs and don’t want to delete huge accomplishments just to trim down the resume. Would a 2-page bother you?

        1. BRR*

          A rule of thumb is a page for every ten years you’ve been working. I like shorter resumes because accomplishments from older jobs feel less relevant. Maybe not the best example but like how my dad says he had a six pack in high school. Well he’s 65 now and not in great shape. It sounds terrible but it’s much more important to know what you’ve done recently.

          1. Jennifer*

            Hm, I dunno. I leave my job from over ten years ago on the resume because it shows I have skills that aren’t being utilized much in my current job. I still have them, mind you, they just don’t get a whole lot of love beyond updating the web page once in a while.

            1. Mando Diao*

              Yep, I doubt I’ll ever take my college internship off of my resume. It was super-prestigious and says a lot more about my skills than a lot of the paying jobs I’ve had more recently.

          2. Mazzy*

            I’m going to have trouble trimming mine down to one page.

            Another question on some of these resumes. I’ve seen two younger millenials with “women in business” associations on their resume. Younger, as in graduated within the past three years. I’m scratching my head at this second one. You went to a very expensive school in the 2010s, and you’re only extracurricular activity was “helping women in business.” How is that even a thing for your generation? Didn’t big expensive diverse school have any other clubs/orgs with a more specific focus to also participate in? Her resume is good but not great, and I was thinking that she’d only be the mid-salary level for the position (we pay a premium for experience but not education), and I’ve created all sorts of scenarios in my head where she would think she was being offered less than the max because of a wage gap or something, and not just because her experience wasn’t stellar. Our company is 50/50 men/women and pay is competitive and two of our VPs are women. I’m afraid someone younger than us (we’re mostly mid-late genx with some millenials) that took up women in business as a cause would only stir trouble. Am I overthinking this? Maybe it is just a social club? But then why put it on your resume?

            1. Mazzy*

              Now I have a resume from someone that works on “political causes” including and is a “fierce ally” of the LGBTA+ “community” and much of their linkedin is about side work on these issues. Am I overreacting, or does this not belong on a resume? I’m concerned for the gay male in the office. He is a very strong personality I wouldn’t want there to be tension between them.

              I need someone who gets along with everyone and doesn’t bring politics and activism into the office. . There is too much work and money at stake to risk people getting divided over political issues. I lover her resume otherwise. Not sure whether to call her…..

              1. The Rat-Catcher*

                “I’m concerned for the gay male in the office. He is a very strong personality I wouldn’t want there to be tension between them.”

                …Why would there be? Did I miss something here? If you said “anti-LGBT activist” that might make more sense…

                1. Mazzy*

                  I think it would awkward because he isn’t officially out, but we all know he is gay, and I wouldn’t want her to officially out him in the name of helping things out or target him for a friendship just because he is gay, and I also know he does not like to be coddled, and I’m thinking that he would find her activism quite patronizing and off-putting, given that we don’t live in an area typically associated with issues for gay people to begin with.

                2. Megs*

                  Maybe it’s because you live in an area without much of an out GLBT community, but none of those things you’re worried about are things that the typical ally would do. Certainly there are bad people of all types out there, but I really don’t think you need to worry here in particular. It sounds to me like you simply don’t want to hire someone publicly associated with the GLBT movement, so maybe it’s best to take that as a sign that it’s going to be a bad fit all around.

                  Side note: my main extra-curricular at the expensive college I went to was leading our Pagan group for three years. You bet that was on my resume until I built up more work specific experience, because it showed I had leadership and budgeting experience, and because anyone who wouldn’t want to work with me because of my religion is someone I wouldn’t want to work with either.

              2. Megs*

                Well, my partner got a huge career boost off of political associations on his resume (and this with a corporate law firm too, not a overly political organization), so if it’s something they’re proud of and think represents their work ethic and value system, go ahead. If it conflicts with your values or those of your company, they probably won’t be happy working there so it’s just as well to get that out of the way ahead of time. If it’s just a neutral (and I’m really confused why you’d be worried about the one gay guy being mad about this) and they look great otherwise, maybe give them a shot and be attentive to whether you think they’ll separate work from activism. Ideally if that’s a dealbreaker, you should be able to get that from an interview.

                1. Anon13*

                  Your first point is interesting. I’ve always left my political volunteer work off my resume, but, you’re right, why would I want to work with people with whom I disagree on an issue that’s very important to me? It’s something to think about.

              3. Anon13*

                I agree that, unless there’s a specific reason to include that kind of information (you’re applying to work at the HRC or at a shelter for LGBT+ youth, etc.), it makes sense to leave it off. I’m not sure why you’re concerned for your gay coworker, though. Why would her support bother him?

              4. Danae*

                Someone who puts work with LGBTA+ associations on their resume/LinkedIn is very likely either a) actually part of the community or b) actively screening out workplaces that aren’t friendly to them. (Or both.)

              5. Colette*

                I have no problem with ally, but the fierce part would make me wonder how aggressive she’d be at real or imagined issues.

            2. Megs*

              I think you’re overthinking it – not that you necessarily need to give it much credit absent more information about their role in the organization, but I really wouldn’t build up a bunch of concerns in advance about what it might mean. I graduated from law school in 2009 and identity focused groups were all over the place (women/black/queer/etc). Being a member might just mean you liked the free lunches, or it might mean you’ve got some excellent connections and/or organizing experience. As for putting it on the resume, I think the vast majority of people would see it as a neutral or a positive, not a negative, so if you don’t have much else early in a career, why not include it?

              1. Mazzy*

                It makes me sad that people still think that they need to congregate with others based on these factors though. I suppose that is a side note to my question. But I’m still confused why it would go on one’s resume. I need an applicant who can get along with all people and doesn’t show any inclination towards one group or another. We have difficult people here of all makes:-)

                1. Anon13*

                  It’s not just that people think they need to congregate with others based on gender, etc., it’s that, for many women and people in other marginalized groups, doors are still closed to them in the business world due to factors outside of their control. Joining a networking group for women is a way of combating that. I just don’t see why being a member of a women’s networking group shows a lack of ability to get along with men. We will obviously never agree on this, though, and if you’re going to view this young woman so negatively and make such far-fetched assumptions, it’s probably best for both of you that she doesn’t work with you. You obviously wouldn’t be able to work well with her.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  But I think you’re misunderstanding the need for affinity groups like these. These groups exist because there’s still lots of bias and obstacles for people outside the dominant group in our society. Is it not understandable that, given that context, some people choose to join affinity groups with others who have a similar frame of reference and in order to give a leg up to people who traditionally are disadvantaged in business/education/etc.? And it’s going on their resume because it demonstrates leadership skills, or they’re screening for a workplace that’s friendly to X group, or so forth. It certainly doesn’t mean they can’t get along with people outside that group (!).

                3. Observer*

                  You asked why helping women in business is still a thing for the younger generation. Then you keep on repeating the assumption that anyone who works for women in business is going to be a trouble maker who who will make incorrect assumptions or be unable to get along with the men.

                  You’ve perfectly illustrated one of the reasons why these associations are still a “thing”.

            3. The Rat-Catcher*

              “I’ve created all sorts of scenarios in my head where she would think she was being offered less than the max because of a wage gap or something, and not just because her experience wasn’t stellar.”

              This line troubles me a little. I feel like there are a lot of age-based assumptions here, as well as some bias based on that group association. Salary expectations are a hot button, of course, but generally, recent grads know (or should know) not to expect the max of most ranges. And women don’t have it made in the business world quite yet, although there have been strides. Someone who took up women in business as a cause, I certainly don’t think should be automatically viewed as a troublemaker.

              1. Zahra*

                Nope, recent grads should not know that they won’t get the max of most ranges. They should go by the posted or stated salary range. Said salary range should cover whatever you’re ready to pay the person the first day of work, not when they max out the payscale. However, anyone (not just recent grads) should expect to fall somewhere higher or lower on the range depending on their experience and skills fit for the job.

                1. Anon13*

                  I feel like your first sentence contradicts your last. Recent grads should recognize that they fall lower in the range because they likely have less experience. The Rat-Catcher didn’t state or imply that recent grads should expect an amount below the listed range.

            4. Anon13*

              I think you are way overthinking this. Women in business groups are generally just networking groups for women. They’re not full of women who want to stir up trouble int he workplace. And I’m not sure what the cost of her school has to do with her participation in a women’s networking group. I hope others chime in because I could be the one who’s way off base on this, but I don’t understand your train of thought at all.

              1. Mazzy*

                I added a few responses to other people above, basically, I am concerned whenever a candidate shows a proclivity towards one group or another, as we are a very diverse environment. I mentioned the cost because – and this is my more mature self speaking – I’m looking at the ROI of their education. If you went to a school that is $40K+ per year and didn’t do anything extracurricular besides this one club, I feel like you didn’t take advantage of an opportunity. Why not, for example, join the club more pertinent to our profession?

                1. Overeducated*

                  Maybe she felt it was irrelevant to include other activities (like the LARPing club, for instance) and this was her only professionally related extracurricular? Maybe she thought it would show her interest in being (a woman) in business, or she was in the club to get useful advice and mentoring? I think you are way over thinking this and it is not the best reason to take someone out of the running.

                2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                  I think that line of thinking is pretty deeply problematic.

                  Folks who are from or in marginalized communities (which could include both women in business and those who identify as LGBTQ) have lots of (highly personal) reasons to have proclivity toward others with shared experiences. It may be that you haven’t felt the need for these kinds of associations, but as a manager it is critically important (and potentially legally important) that you not bring a bias against those associations into your hiring decision.

                  A woman might join a “women in business” group in order to meet other women with similar interests; leverage a network that can help her combat an “old boys’ club;” find a mentor; rabble rouse to make things better for women at work; or too many other things to mention. You just don’t know.

                  A person who puts LGBTQ activism on their resume might do so because they want to screen out organizations that are biased against queer folks; highlight skills or experience they gained in that role that aren’t present elsewhere on their organization; have been told they should have extra-curriculars or civic activities on their resume and that’s where their leadership has been focused; or too many other things to mention. You just don’t know.

                3. Anon13*

                  I’m in total agreement with Overeducated. How do you know this was the one activity in which she participated? And maybe she didn’t join the club more pertinent to your profession because she wasn’t sure what she wanted to do. Your focus on the cost of her university still comes across as very odd.

            5. Mazzy*

              Thanks for the comments everyone. I read them all even though I didn’t respond to them all. I’ve added these two candidates to my to-call pile and I’m going to ignore the concerns I raised here and treat them like everyone else. I suppose people are right that I’m over-thinking this, and I’m maybe projecting a bit from some negative experiences with other people I’ve known who think anyone who isn’t an activist or 100% supporting their cause is bad. I guess it helped to hear some of you saying I’m reading too much into this or giving me reasons why someone would belong to certain groups. Thanks!

              1. Mreasy*

                Another consideration: it’s possible that she was focusing on only one extracurricular in order to spend more time on her studies. Maybe a pat answer, but that’s what I did at my extremely academically-challenging four-year liberal arts college.

        2. Megs*

          I think two pages is fine, so long as you are actually using the two pages appropriately (I’ve got a two-pager and really can’t cut that down at this point in my career). Lots and lots and lots of people fill their second page with junk, though.

        3. Dawn*

          Mainly because it was formatted *really* well and I have been seeing so many six and seven-page monstrosities that it was refreshing to see one so short!

          Two pages is not a deal *AT ALL* as long as everything that’s on there is 1- relevant and 2- easy to read

    2. Jennifer*

      Maybe all they want IS a paying job? Or getting a job in their previous industries isn’t happening so they’re willing to switch?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      OMG. A younger me would have found you very intimidating because the subjects here run all over the map. It’s this type of thinking that made job hunting so daunting for Young Me.
      I knew that based on the vast amount of area covered here I would definitely fail to pass the scrutiny. I would have something somewhere that made my resume go to the no pile, the odds were tilted that way by the sheer scope of topics that you are discussing here.

      Now older, but maybe not wiser, I read this all over the map thing as panic/worry. Do you know what it is you want? Do you really understand the qualities that the successful hires have? Do you have a well-thought out job description? Do you have someone to bounce things off of or are you doing this alone?

      Honestly, it sounds like you are not screening for people but you are screening to get rid of people. This sounds like an ad problem. Does your ad draw everyone and their cat? You might need to be more specific. Screening to get rid of people sounds like a horrid workday to me, no wonder the panic….

      Please think about what it is you want, what does a great candidate look like on paper? Collect up your thoughts, know that you know. This huge collection of topics that you have here is not helping you, it’s actually hindering you.

  123. Creag an Tuire*

    So… yesterday my wife ran in one of those “corporate challenge” races where sponsoring companies assemble their “teams” and whatnot, was feeling pretty pumped about making her personal best time for a race — and then next morning found out that another runner (not a colleague) collapsed and died. :(

    It makes me wonder if these corporate athletic events are a good idea — to their credit WifesJob didn’t pressure or side-eye anyone into joining the their “team” but we read about so many other companies that take participation in this crap way too seriously.

    1. Manders*

      Oh no, that’s awful!

      I have zero medical knowledge about this, but it’s my understanding that it’s pretty unusual to exercise yourself to death unless you have some sort of unknown medical condition or you’re doing something very, very strenuous with no water and no chance to rest if you feel bad. Which doesn’t mean that participation in athletics should be mandatory, but it’s not likely to be fatal either.

    2. Chriama*

      We have a gym at my office. One day, one of my coworkers (he worked on my floor but we weren’t in the same department or anything. I knew him to say hi to) came back from a morning workout session, collapsed at his desk, and died before the ambulance got there.

    3. Chriama*

      That was a really abrupt comment! What I meant by it was that death is always awful and often unexpected. I don’t think corporate athletic events are inherently helpful or harmful. As with everything, they can be great for encouraging team spirit and building morale, but can cause pressure and resentment if executed poorly.

    4. Bea W*

      Is it known that the event itself caused or contributed to the death? It could be something unrelated and would have happened anyhow or he could have had a silent pre-existing condition. It happens even to athletic people.

      It depends on how the event is run, and i don’t think it’s inheritantly bad. I wouldn’t blame the event until more is known about why the person died.

  124. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    It seems the contract gig I’m on is losing funding come winter X/ Or earlier….

    So I’m trying to get into management consulting. Just did a job interview this morning, it seems like a nice fit (though the firm is only 9 people, its a boutique size).

    Anybody here ever go from a law background to an alternate management-type background? Any advice on which mgmt firms to look for/avoid with a 10 ft pole? Thanks….

  125. Jennifer*

    I hate being the only one NOT leaving early on a holiday weekend. While serving the public. Which continues to stampede in the door instead of leaving early to go home like everyone else.

    1. Lillian McGee*

      I’m stuck too! Waiting for other people to get application materials to me so I don’t have to scramble on Tuesday when it’s due. Sigh.

    2. Emmy*

      If it’s any comfort, you aren’t the only one. TL will be working late and it’s not even for the public. It’s better than we thought though as he didn’t have to go to job 2 hours away today which would have meant working there until 5ish, then commuting back on a holiday Friday, passing our house to drop of company vehicle to pick up our car and then coming home probably around eight? Instead he should just get off at usual time so only ten hours today. But it does feel like everyone else is off or will be in an hour. And doesn’t the day before a holiday just draaaaaaaaag on?!

    3. Mazzy*

      I remember once going to the DMX the day between a weekend and July 4th. Stupid me thought there would be no crowds because it was a weekday. Yeah…it was pretty bad. Those guys were definitely not getting out on time…..

    5. Jennifer*

      Oh, and of course today went all kinds of horrible, and one guy came in one minute before closing demanding that we fix his date from 30 years ago. No joke, he’s MAD. And even though technically it’s not my area, I’m sure I’ll be the one being stuck “investigating” it because the coworker who should be doing it is retiring.

      We also found out about cheating, the fact that one office is complaining about me big time for following their policy, and we’re going to have to fix 1000 mistakes someone else made come Tuesday…oh, just shoot me now.

    6. AnotherAlison*

      Yep, while the half of the dept that wasn’t on PTO all cut out before 5 if they could, I worked till 7 tonight. 12 hr days all week, and I’m salaried, so it was all for freeeee. And I will be going in at least one weekend day to catch up.

      We did get a new hire who will take some work off my plate…but he’s an outside hire and knows nothing about how to work in our processes.

      Ahhh, sorry for the side rant. Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

  126. SC in SC*

    I received a classic letter of resignation this week. Just to give everyone a little background, this individual is an hourly worker in our R&D facility and has no supervisory responsibilities although he regularly complains about management being incompetent. His new role is a supervisory position at another company. I’d be interested to see how he likes it on the other side of the desk. I’ve added a few comments in parentheses.

    R&D Management,

    This is a letter to officially announce my resignation from Teapots Inc. The driving force behind my decision to leave is money. I have been complaining about it for years and finally just had enough. It is extremely disheartening to go to work every day knowing that no matter how hard I work, no matter what I do, I will never be rewarded for it! All I hear from management is “Money is not a motivator”, which is apparently some bullshit you guys heard in a management seminar at the Holiday Inn or something! I work side-by-side with people that do the exact same job as me with the same amount of tenure and they are making $5-$15 per hour more than I am!! (completely untrue)

    We were told several years ago that the forced distribution system and the revamped advancement ladder would slowly correct the vast gap in pay between the lower and upper level technicians. The upper level technicians have continued to get consistently higher raises than the lower level technicians, which only widens the gap!! (or perhaps they earned them through better performance)

    My raises, since being a technician, have been LESS than what the production personnel get for their annual cost-of-living raise! (also completely untrue) They earn that raise by simply showing up for work!!

    I could continue on for several more pages but I know I would be wasting my time as it would just be more pages that will quickly be dismissed and deleted. Please consider the impact of your lackadaisical attitude towards the lower level technicians in the Teapot Shop that are knowledgeable, experienced and willing to work and learn, they are the future of R&D for Teapots Inc.……..OR some other company that will pay and appreciate them.

    I have no animosity towards anyone, just a tremendous amount of frustration. I would like to work a 2 week notice to help get someone trained on the teapot mold and say goodbye to the people I have spent the last 21 years working with. My last day will be June 3rd 2016

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Going out with a letter of flames: feels righteous
      Burning your bridges at the job you’ve worked for the last 21 years: really bad plan

      Well, we hope the new job works out for him because he’s set himself to up to need that to work out.

      1. Mazzy*

        And the worst part is that he doesn’t get any closure because it’s a one way communication. He will never get answers to these questions. Why not express these concerns verbally? There wouldn’t be a paper trail, he’d get some answers, and the manager would guide the conversation differently so it was less of a rant

        1. Not So NewReader*

          He does not want answers, though, he wants to have the last word. He has already decided not to believe anything he is told, so he has put himself where no one can help him.

    3. Megs*

      Apropos of the letter earlier today, I suspect he was asked to leave rather than serve the last two weeks?

      1. SC in SC*

        To be honest we wrestled with what to to when we received the letter. My knee-jerk reaction was to walk him out the door but we felt that would cause more harm than good in the long run. We also needed to do as much knowledge transfer as possible in the last two weeks. We eventually settled on just keeping it all business as long as he didn’t make any trouble or spread any poison to the rest of the group.

        We also appealed to his sense of legacy with his coworkers. So far he’s held up his end of the bargain so I think we made the right choice. In fact, I had a nice conversation with him yesterday but didn’t mention the resignation letter. I just treated it as I would have any other employee leaving for a different opportunity. He’s a nice guy other then having a bit of a chip on his shoulder and a serious distrust of management. In the end I don’t hold any ill will towards him but this was completely unnecessary. Some people just can’t help themselves.

    5. Jack the treacle eater*

      Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, I can’t help feeling it’s not exactly ethical to publish someone’s resignation letter on the internet, apparently verbatim and presumably without their knowledge or permission (and not for discussion of a thorny problem but seemingly just to say ‘look what an idiot this guy is’)

  127. MMSW*

    I’m trying to make a career change- more switching job function than entire field of employment though. I have some transferable skills but I am not having much luck. I’m realizing I need to network to find out what I need to do to get the positions I’m interested in and I do have some contact to reach out to, but having a hard time doing this. One question i have is about contacting people I’m not close with at a place where I just submitting a resume. Obviously if they feel like moving my resume to the top of the pile that would be great, but I really do want help beyond that though. Should I wait to hear if I am selected or rejected for an interview before reaching out, becayse there is no way to make it sound like anything other than help me get this job> I was thinking of something along the lines of: say I just applied for this job which I understand is competitive, if I don’t make the cut I want to get some advice on what I can do to make myself more qualified for similar positions here or elsewhere in the future

    1. Megs*

      I think AAM has written some about informational interviews if you wanted to poke around in the archives, but in my experience with the networking game (which I HATE), it’s best to put a clear separation between applying for jobs and informational interviewing. If you’re going to contact someone you aren’t close to, it’s really best to do it when you don’t have an application pending, that way you avoid any uncomfortable sense of trying to ask for favors that someone who doesn’t know you well is highly unlikely to grant (such as sticking your resume at the top of a pile). Then if you have a good connection and a job opening does come up, you can shoot a quick email mentioning that you’re applying. Good luck – I know the search can be rough at the beginning of a career change (I’m in the post-back-to-school phase myself).

  128. Gov'ment Drone in Waiting*

    Well, I just got back from my second interview in a month, which are the first two interviews I’ve had in quite a while, so it feels like I’m getting my momentum back after a couple of years of spotty temp work. The interview was for in-house counsel at a state agency, exactly what I want to be doing. I spent most of yesterday really anxious and depressed then had a horrible drive to the interview, but I think it went well enough.

    One awesome thing – I’ve been reading AAM for a couple of years now but just discovered the government-interview-specific post! Almost all my interviews since starting law school have been in government so I’m used to the whole “panel asks pre-set questions” format, but there were still a couple of tips in the comments that came in handy. I’d cross my fingers, but I won’t expect anything for a month at least, so I’m going to try and keep the good times going and apply some more.

  129. LiteralGirl*

    I’m in the middle of negotiating for salary for an internal position! I’ve never negotiated before, but our standard calculator is ridiculous and ensures that if you are at a low point going in, you will always remain there.
    It’s not a hill I’m willing to die on (it is a significant bump), but I’m trying, just in case. Fingers crossed!

    2. Ineloquent*

      I successfully did this late last year at my company, which has a similar issue regarding keeping people who start low at low levels for a long, long time. My management team loves me – they really went above and beyond to secure what was an incredibly high (for the company) percentage raise. However, since I was already underpaid (as I had been told by a previous, terrible, manager), I knew that I needed to be making more to be at my appropriate level. So, I countered, and it honestly kind of freaked out my management, who had already gone through hoops to get me the higher percentage. We had a meeting, and I told them that I knew that they had done really everything they possibly could for me at this time, but this is what I was looking for in the near future – about a total 25-30% raise over the next 2 – 3 years. They really want to keep me long term, so the discussion turned into how they want me to move into management once someone retires, we can work with you, etc. End result? Initial promotion gave me a 7% raise, which is what they offered, but my merit increase this spring brought it up to close to 18% what I’d been making before. It’s possible to navigate, if you have good management who recognize your value (and it really does have to be justifiable value – don’t be inflating your worth too much or it will backfire) and you’ve got to be willing to open an honest and uncomfortable dialog. You also may need to compromise a bit, but that can e ok.

  130. Anonish for this*

    I don’t know what I’m looking for. Sympathy? A place to vent? Advice on how to keep chugging along?

    So I work weekends and floating for a company with a bunch of offices in the area. Each office has a small number of employed staff (usually a managing officer and a handful of admin staff), plus many sales contractors. So far this year Offices A (my main office, where I’m at on weekends), B, and C (which doubles as corporate hq) have been hemorrhaging employees due to people leaving for various reasons, and management making a series of bad hires to replace them, that ended up being let go. At the same time there’s been a lot of changes to the company that are hitting my office (Office A) particularly hard.

    I’m the company’s go-to floater for multiple reasons (longest with the company by far, widest range, greatest availability), and this is stretching me thin. I’ve been working 6-day weeks almost exclusively since the beginning of Jan, at or near FT hours while still being considered a PT worker. I’ve gotten some small stuff in appreciation for the way I’ve stepped up to cover gaps as best as I can, but it’s still hard. My manager knows I want to move out of the floater position, and would be agreeable to moving into our current open spot. In our talks he’s indicated he’s got another position that’s he’s working with his boss and HR to create that he wants to put me in, that’s been put a bit on the back burner by everything else that’s going on.

    While this has allowed me to get some good experience to put on my resume, I’m too tired when I get home to work on it, much less do anything else with regards to job hunting. I even ended up not getting myself together when a friend tipped me off to an opening at their work, and all I needed to do was send them my resume.

    1. Nethwen*

      I’ve never been in your type of position, so take my comments for the little they’re worth.

      1) Remember that it’s not your responsibility to save the company. They are the ones creating a workplace where people keep leaving. It’s up to them to fix it; not you. You owe them nothing. This is a business arrangement. You work, they pay a reasonable amount. They don’t pay a reasonable amount, you should be looking to work elsewhere.

      2) As much as possible, set boundaries. Maybe explain that when you work six days a week, by day six, you’re just a warm body that creates very little productivity. Maybe your boss would work with you so that you’re guaranteed a full weekend off every other week or whatever you think you need (some people like a three on, one off, two on, one off schedule). Figure out something that will help keep you a sane, healthy person and negotiate to get something.

      3) They say you’re the only one who knows how to do X? Offer to train someone so that there will be two or more of you. It’s more work upfront, but if it saves you in a couple of weeks, then it’s worth it.

      4) Don’t agree to more work because they guilt you. Know your situation and choose which battles you want to fight, but if you say “no” and stick to it, they may magically discover someone else who can fill in. Do others say no and then management comes asking you? That likely means you, too, can say no and stick to it and management will go ask someone else.

      5) Know your workplace. Unreasonable bosses would rather loose a good employee than make reasonable accommodations. Don’t get fired, but do take care of yourself.

      Repeat hourly: It’s not up to me to save the company. Their staffing problems are not mine to solve.

  131. nicolefromqueens*

    I work “for the city” (read: permatemp, non-union). What’s the best way to say “yes, you do actually have to contact Unit X because I was only trained to work in Unit Y so I don’t know their procedures”; or “I don’t have 9 million bosses”? Specifically after I’ve been asked different variations of the same question 3 times? Because if I lose it here I could lose my job.

    1. LQ*

      Is it citizens/clients? Different people asking the same question? You just have to remember this is the first time they’ve asked. That will never change. They will have the same questions a thousand times because there are a thousand people.

      1. nicolefromqueens*

        At this Agency we get both one-time citizens and regular “clients” (I don’t want to give it away with the details.)

        It’s some of the citizens who don’t understand that a) I don’t make the rules and I have zero flexibility to change them; and b) paying taxes doesn’t mean that s/he is one of my 9 million bosses, nor does it make me capable or authorized to break such rules that are put into place to ensure the welfare and safety of all of our citizens, and the workflow of our office.

        Regular “clients” will find 3 different ways to ask the same question, trying to get me to break so they can get something they know they’re not entitled to.

        Sending people to my supervisor is not really allowed

    2. Not So NewReader*

      So this is the challenge for this job. At least you have the challenge nailed down. I hate it when I don’t know where the challenging areas are.

      Dealing with repeat questions can kill us if we let it.

      Some days I picture myself as a server, I serve people. The tricky part here is that people actually need me to do what they need to get done. So while superficially it looks like I am serving them, they are actually dependent on me to do the task. It will not happen without me.
      Other days I am a teacher. I teach, I explain… the same thing…. 5o times each hour. No not really. But sometimes I hate the drone of my own voice so I con myself into believing that I teach people.

      Other days I craft sentences to deliver difficult to hear messages. I’m crafty on those days.”Well that question is a variation on your previous question which brings us back to the answer we were just talking about.” OR “Yes, 9 million people help pay for my employment but only one person tells me my responsibilities each day and this is the person that I must answer to.” OR “Sorry, you have to speak to X because this is Y and we cannot answer that question for you.”

      In order to not lose your cool you will need several tools or perspectives in your collection. If one perspective is not working today quickly bump to the next one. It could boil down to getting firm with yourself and saying “I have to have food on my table, so I gotta do this.” Other days a milder, gentler self-talk might work better.

      Find ways to take pride in the way you do your job. If you think of your job as a burden, or you feel robotic, it’s going to make the job that much harder. One thing I did at a previous job was say to myself, “how am I going to use this current problem/situation to strengthen something about me?” I found that line of thinking worked for me often.

  132. Nethwen*

    As a follow up to the mystery flower sender from last week…

    Sweet treats followed the flowers, but I finally figured out who the person was and left him a voice mail telling him not to send me anything else and that all interactions going forward needed to remain professional.

    I credit years of reading Alison’s scripts for awkward conversations for my being able to say what I was thinking and being able to use a calm, firm voice tone. Five years ago, I would have given it my best go, but ultimately stumbled around and it probably would have sounded like I didn’t mean what I said. So, thank you, Alison.

    1. Following the flowers*

      So it was a coworker? Or someone else you work with? Eesh. Hope he follows through with your message.

      1. Nethwen*

        It was one of our customers. He called and apologized after I left the voice mail.

        Also, I want to say again how impressed I am with our sheriff’s department. After my good experience with the sergeant who responded to my call, I e-mailed the office to let the sheriff know I was pleased with the service I received. The next day, the sheriff showed up at work to chat about the e-mail I sent and confirmed that due to the facts in the report, he thinks I did the right thing to report the flowers. So that made me feel less like I was over reacting.

  134. Gene*

    Just got word that some training I put in for over 3 weeks ago just got approved. Went to register for it and … it’s full. :(

    Now I’m on the wait list, it’s only three hours’ drive away and I can cancel the hotel up to 6 PM the day before, so all is not lost.

    There are times I really hate the bureaucracy involved with working for a municipality. This is one of them; 3 weeks to approve training with a total cost of under $750.

    1. LQ*

      In the future it is worth reaching out to these places and letting them know you’d like to attend and you have supervisor approval but it has to go through the whole thing first blahblahblah, would they be willing to hold a spot for you. Not something you could formally do, but if you feel very confident in the approval (and I’d talk to my manager before I did this now – but at my old job I certainly did it a couple times, I had to get board approval for things and that could take over a month, sometimes two) then I’d say try it.

  135. Overeducated*

    When it rains it pours!

    I spent 10 months trying to find a full time job in my field. In May, I got 4 offers (2 after I had already accepted one, so it was really just a choice between 2). Craziness! Why does this happen so much?

  136. Teacher*

    I’m having a work-related ethical dilemma (ok maybe that’s a little dramatic) about 2 week notice periods. I have a full time job and a part-time job at a restaurant (Restaurant A) for money/to take up time. I got a new part-time job at Restaurant B because the hours at A are really wearing on me (Friday and Saturday nights) and the owners and manager are generally awful. I was going to give my 2 weeks tonight, and I already requested off next weekend because my parents are coming for my birthday.

    I’m completely exhausted from wrapping up the school year (teacher = full time job) and called out for tonight which I feel terrible about. Immediately after I called out, I got my schedule for next week and I’m working Thursday and Friday, which I can’t do. I had an understanding with my recently-fired manager that I would only work Thursdays if he really needed me and he let me know. I really really really want to just quit when I go into work tomorrow and say it’s my last day. I feel like if I tell them I can’t work Thursday and can’t find someone to cover, I will just be fired, and I’d rather quit with no notice than be fired. The prospect of having to work so many hours next week is already making my stomach turn and my head hurt. I try really hard to not be cavalier about my part-time job and come off in a way that says I don’t care because I don’t “need” it, but I have no idea what to do about this maybe-getting-fired-or-just-quitting-or-just-giving-notice-and-it’s-fine thing.

    Basically, what I WANT to do is just work tomorrow and say it’s going to be my last day, leaving them without me for my Thursday and Friday shift. But I also feel like a complete monster doing that. I also haven’t eaten today and had a rowdy last period class and the AC in my apartment is broken so I’m feeling a little more crazed and less able to figure out what the best thing to do is.

    1. Not Karen*

      In my brief restaurant experience, if you’re only working two shifts, it’s not as big a deal to give two weeks’ notice. My previous employer wanted a full two weeks from me because I was working fulltime for them (then they ended up letting me go after 1.5 weeks).

      1. Teacher*

        Do you think I can just tell them that I’m sorry, but tomorrow will be my last day? That’s what I’m really concerned about. I thought I was going to have next weekend off, so I could give them my notice but wouldn’t have to come back in because I had requested off a while ago, before I even knew I was leaving.

        I know it’s in really bad form to leave them high and dry for two shifts. I feel really guilty, but I think it’s best for my sanity to have tomorrow be my last day.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Well if push comes to shove, you could remind them that you cannot work on Thursdays so you are not sure why you are scheduled for then. This leaves just Friday of next week that is the concern. And you just cannot do it because of unforeseen circumstances. It’s one shift and you’d hoped they would understand.

  137. Woodbury*

    My youngest graduated high school last year and has been on the hunt for a job. He had a fantastic job he loved, was getting positive feedback from managers and was really doing great. A coworker got jealous because he had not been praised as much as my son and he really put the screws to him. When the manager was not around, he would harass and bully him. When my son asked his direct manager for help, all hell broke loose and he chose to leave instead of getting into a physical altercation. Since then he has been applying for jobs everywhere and can’t get an interview. He doesn’t have a lot of experience and I think they maybe the issue but if no one will give him a chance how is he supposed to gain that experience? He’s really depressed. He went to an open interview at McDonald’s 3 days ago and hasn’t heard back. I’m scared that if he doesn’t get a job soon the depression will get better of him. I have respect for fast food workers because I know they put up with a lot of bull, and here’s the but, if he can’t even get a job a McDonald’s, what can I do to help him? His resume is pretty much nonexistent because he didn’t work in high school. He was an average B/C student and I was afraid a job would make his grades fall. I have tried to help him with cover letters but that has not seemed to help.

    I’m fighting an internal war with myself because I want to beat the crap out of that guy that cost him his job. I did a little investigating and it turns out that guy is a felon, has been written up for harassment before and is generally a bad person. I helped my son write letters to the HR manager and the corporate office and no one has responded. I just don’t know what else to do to help him. It’s shame that so much emphasis is put on bullying in schools but I hardly ever hear about bullying in the workplace until it happened to my son. I’m furious and scared.

    1. Colette*

      Can he volunteer somewhere? What is he doing to fill his time except for job hunting? I mean, yes he should be job hunting, but he needs other things where success is more in his hands.

      Also, what has he learned from the previous job? Is there something he could have done to handle it more effectively?

    2. burnout*

      Is he going to college or vocational school in the fall? Just looking for a summer job?

      Read the post by anonymouse below re: parents calling job interviewers on behalf of their kids. I get that you feel bad for your son, but don’t do too much for him. This is his battle and his job search. Let him figure it out in his own time. I know that is hard to do, I’ve had to do it twice myself :)

      Also — maybe encourage him to think outside the box. Why not start his own business? Maybe he could mow lawns, run errands for elderly or home-bound people, babysit, pet sit, walk dogs, paint houses, clean up people’s property, do odd jobs, deliver newspapers….. the ideas are pretty endless when you think creatively. As long as he is willing to keep trying and isn’t afraid of hard work, he’ll end up doing something great!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        In the same vein, does he know someone a relative, neighbor, parent of a friend who might put in a good word for him? Or does he know someone who runs a business and would be interested in helping him get some experience under his belt? Are there seasonal jobs coming up for the summer?

    3. Woodbury*

      If anyone is checking back, great news for my son! He applied at Wal-Mart a few weeks back, they called him on Saturday morning to come in for an interview on Monday (yes, Memorial Day) and he got the job! It’s almost identical to the job he had (stocking) but instead of the early shift (4am to 10pm) he will be on overnight stocking, which is perfect because he had not been sleeping at night because of the depression. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off of me. His mood has already improved so much and he’s finally excited about something again.

      Sorry for the vent-post above, but I was seriously worried about him. He had been cutting grass with a neighbor who owns a lawn care business, but it was only a few times a month and always last minute, but he was doing it mainly for the experience and to put on his resume. I know many people say Wal-Mart is not the best place to work, but it’s an honest living and as long as he works hard and proves himself, he can always switch departments or maybe even take some college classes in the fall.

  138. DCGirl*

    Just a vent, but…. why are some recruiters so freaking rude?

    I had one guy blow up my phone four times in an hour earlier this week to say he had a great job for me and he’d already put me on the CEO’s calendar for 10:00 a.m. What’s the problem with that? I’m a proposal manager, and I had a huge proposal scheduled to ship today. Taking this interview would mean jeopardizing my ability to ship the proposal in a timely fashion, which is a career-limiting move at this — or any other — company. Heck, simply coming in late on ship day would be looked at critically. I may not like current job, but, right now, it’s the only job I have, and I enjoy staying current on my mortgage payments.

    This is not a job I applied to — they found me on Indeed. The fact that the CEO is interviewing proposal managers is not a good sign; it means that it’s a small company, and I don’t want to work for a company that small.

    So I called the guy back and explained that, if 10:00 a.m. Friday was the only time the CEO could see me, I would respectfully have to withdraw from the search, since I’m leaving on vacation on Monday and will be gone for two weeks. He then kept calling me back to say that the CEO could accommodate me “after hours” at 6:00 p.m. on Thursday. I explained that, with the location of the office (far suburbs), it would mean leaving work suspiciously early.

    The guy then proceeded to argue with me about why I wouldn’t agree to an interview. I finally had to say, “I’m hanging up now.” I think I dodged a bullet on this one.

    1. Crylo Ren*

      I once had a recruiter that wasn’t rude per se but he did call me frequently after hours (think 8:00 PM at night). I didn’t recognize his number so I answered and then was drawn into an hour-long conversation because I’m terrible at ending conversations. >:(

  139. Persephone Mulberry*

    I don’t know if this will get more traction on a Friday thread, even though it’s late, or on the weekend; it could fit either one.

    Does anyone have any vocal training tips when doing voiceovers for videos? I’ve got the equipment figured out and I’m mostly over the initial horror at the sound of my own voice, I just want the end result to sound a little more polished. Scripting and pacing aren’t a problem, it’s mostly vocal inflection and pitch – it makes me crazy when I listen back and my voice cracks or I realize I’ve swallowed the end of a word. I used to have really good breath control (sang choir all the way through high school) but I could probably use some work in that area as well.

    My boss is of the “good enough is good enough” school of thought so putting off these recordings for some voice lessons isn’t going to happen (although since this, along with running the occasional podcast, is going to be an ongoing part of my job I’m definitely going to look into it); I just would like some pointers that I can improve the projects that need to be done ASAP.

    1. LQ*

      OH! I can help! (I hope.)

      Can you stand when you do the recording? It helps a ton for me. Practice is huge. When I picked back up doing some of the voiceovers for our elearnings I was out of practice but doing a few of them I got back on track quickly. (And now doing audiobooks and podcasts in my spare time because yay!) This isn’t exactly what you are asking about but silencing your breaths is tedious but valuable. It makes everything sound more polished, though that may not be the feel you are going for.

      If you can do many takes? Do it. You’ll get faster and smoother as you go. But if you can just record one breath’s worth of audio at a time when you start I found that helped get on track quickly. Even if you just do record, pause, breath, start recording fresh, pause, breath, etc… it will make a difference.

      Smile, I do the pen in my teeth trick while I get the recording equipment set up and then while I’m doing the actual recording I force a smile on. It really makes my audio better.

      Over enunciate, but not comically. Biting the ends of sharper words helps.

      Don’t record for more than an hour. If you start to get stuttery or punchy or flubby before that take a break, go for a walk, work on something else. For me an hour is about all I can do in a shot, but when I started it was less than that. Even a 10 minute walk helps. You might find you can do more or less, but I’ve found an hour at a shot is plenty for me.

      Good luck!

  140. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

    In case you were thinking of popping over to Wakeen’s this afternoon to order a nice batch of custom teapots printed with the name of a Major Motion Picture About to be Released, and you aren’t like the *movie studio*, can I just preempt that with: WE CAN’T DO THAT.

    And if you do pop over, would you please explain same to the lady my rep has wrangling with all afternoon for the same request? We keep saying NO I AM SORRY, and then she’ll be like “okay what if I make this one small change that still makes it completely clear that I’m totally violating 20th Century Fox’s marks but I’ve got nothing better to do than suck up your time with these questions”, and then the rep sends it to me, and then I deny it again.

    It’s a movie studio people! Do you know how many lawyers they have?

    1. LQ*

      All? I’m going to go with all. All the lawyers.
      (I answered a question from somebody about someone stealing her writing online…with an icon from a film I am a billion percent sure she did not have the rights to use. I pointed it out, she did not get it.)

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        I had one lady who wanted to buy teapots (and this is funny because it really was, swear to god, actual and real teapots, we do have a couple actual and real teapots) with Alice in Wonderland movie art she had swiped. I think she was going to try to sell them in her etsy shop or something.

        NO I CANNOT DO THAT.

        They have All The Lawyers .

        The one today is a movie theater! Small independent, idk if it’s a new marketing person there or what, small independent ina small town, trying to order merch with the major release name on it. Merch, no that wouldn’t stand out. Lawyers live for hard goods that violate rights and wave around in court nicely.

        Show me your rights paperwork and I’m happy to sell it to you. (Oh, well, okay we’ll change the font. Oh, well okay, about if we leave off one of the words. Oh, well, okay what if…)

        1. LQ*

          A movie theater! I gawk.

          Out of all the places you’d think they’d know, but wow.
          I do love the idea of alice in wonder land teapots at an etsy shop and I’ll bet when I go to look they’ll exist.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

            There’s plenty of hand painted violating stuff in Etsy. My sister does some stuff there that I’m *sure* wouldn’t past legal muster but no lawyers letters yet and it’s been a few years. (She’s interpreting tho, not using a logo, so maybe it’s actually cool.)

            Alice In Wonderland, the book is in public domain and the images from the book I think are also. #notalaywer

            The DISNEY movie though (which is what my teapot lady was trying to steal), Disney has Most of All of The Lawyers.

            1. Tris Prior*

              She should be careful. Even if her pieces are abstract and “inspired by” and have no logos or screenshots, what will get her is her tags and titles. If she is using a movie name or character name in a title or tag she can have her shop pulled. I know people who have been shut down over this.

    2. Silver*

      Note to fans of things, please do not use a studios IP or trademark in the items you create. They have whole departments set up to take care of those kinds of things (and its not because they are mean and want to ruin your fun).

  141. Carolum*

    Well this is interesting… Had a phone interview a few days ago, and the plan was that they’d do call-backs next week for in-person interviews the following week. Today I got an email saying that the search for the position has been suspended while they re-evaluate their organizational structure.

    If you’re going to do something like that, then wouldn’t the proper time be *before* you open up the position and take applications?

    1. Snazzy Hat*

      While I can see post-advertisement being the time when they find out they can’t hire anyone just yet, I certainly disapprove of holding interviews and then telling those interviewed that the search is being suspended. Boo.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Eh, to be fair, if you’re large enough to pretty much always be hiring for something, then there’s no avoiding this. If they’re ever going to reorganize, it’s going to happen in the middle of some hiring process. There’s no way around that.

      And really, much better that it happen now than after you’ve already accepted the job, if there’s any chance the job won’t exist at the end of the reorg.

      1. newreader*

        This did happen to me, where after an in-person interview the search was put on hold due to a reorganization. In the end, the position was eliminated. So it was a good thing they didn’t have a chance to fill the position just to turn around and do a lay-off.

      2. So Very Anonymous*

        Also, if it’s a workplace/department like mine where there are reorganizations (which have also included middle-manager demotions) every year or so, you might be dodging a bullet.

    3. enough*

      Oh, you mean like if you’re going to eliminate the position it might be a good idea to tell the hiring manager before they interview, check references, fly in the candidate, and offer them job.

    4. Observer*

      Sure, if you know it’s going to happen. It’s not always obvious. To take an extreme, but real, example. A few years ago the Executive Director of a fairly large nonprofit got fired for financial shenanigans. Job openings weren’t the only things that froze for a while. The fact is that no one outside of the Board had a clue this was coming, and the Board carefully didn’t send any signals.

      Sometimes it’s not until you actually start the process that you have the information that triggers the idea of a reorg. So, the org puts together a job description and places ads. Then they start getting applications and resumes and realize that there is a mismatch. When they start looking more closely they realize that perhaps with the candidate pool they are looking at they should change the job / department structure.

  142. JennyFair*

    For those that remember the employee who moved all his belongings into an office without asking or even letting us know, he just resigned…by calling me (for the first time ever, I believe, normally he calls the boss’s cell phone) and asking me to let the boss know that he was giving his notice. Which was effectively 1-day notice since his last day will be Tuesday. Are we surprised at this lack of professionalism? ….No.

    1. Laura*

      I am so happy you updated and this latest installment made me laugh. Of course he did that! Because he’s THAT guy.

      1. JennyFair*

        He really is! Although I feel sorry for the folks that hired him, I’m happy to have him off our hands, lol.

  143. Snazzy Hat*

    So, still nothing. The exciting job posting I applied to three weeks ago is still up, and I’m trying to keep a level head about it. At the same time, I’ve had some crappy moments and crappy days to the tune of “no one wants me as an employee” and “I don’t deserve a job”. I eventually get out of those funks, but they scare me nonetheless.

    I know I have to keep up the search and act as though I’ve already been rejected. I know what to do if I get an interview for Awesome Place and, whilst awaiting a decision, get an interview and job offer from Meh Industries. But I have no idea if I’m in the running at Awesome Place. Hell, save for two staffing agencies, only one of the two-dozen places to which I’ve applied has made a peep; everyone else has ignored me without even a “thanks but no thanks, we won’t interview you” email.

    I thought this was going to be a question, but I’m apparently freaking out so much that I can’t put my question into a coherent sentence. I guess it’s a rant about how I’m continuing to apply but I really only want the job at Awesome Place and not a job at Meh Industries or Okay Corp, so my heart might not be in any of the other cover letters, which would waste my time and the reader’s time anyway. Sigh.

    1. Colette*

      Job hunting is hard, and discouraging, and so incredibly slow. Hang in there and, if it helps, remember that you can’t tell which company would be best for you from the outside. I used to work for a company that’s often on “best place to work” lists, and in a lot of ways it was great – but I worked at a second-rate location, which was not.

  144. TAR*

    HELP.

    I have an offer from company A. The offer is good in terms of pay and benefits. It is a remote position but travel is reasonable. But subject matter isn’t something I feel particular passionate about and I’d be doing some things I’m not really interested in doing in addition to things I do like doing.

    I was asked to interview again with company B. I don’t think they’d offer as much as company A, but the commute would suck and would require me to buy a new car (not a job requirement, because of my current circumstance.) I’m much more interested in the subject matter, though what I’d be doing is a little up in the air.

    I’m having a hard time saying I’m not interested in company B because I’m SO interested in the subject matter, but the idea of that commute and buying a new car when I’m not sure the salary will make up for it is really unsettling.

    I have NO IDEA what to do. Anyone been in a similar position?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Well you only have one offer, so you’re not choosing between offers.

      How long is A going to wait to hear? Do you think B could make you an offer in that time span? (If you haven’t gotten to 2nd interview with B, probably not?)

      1. TAR*

        I’m up to a 4th (!!!) interview with B and A knows it and is kindly giving me time, but due to scheduling on their part I’m not sure they’ll be able to make a decision before offer A expires. If this is the case, I’ll obviously take offer A but I’m going to reach out to B to see what they’re thinking in terms of turn around since the weird tax implications with A could potentially even out what I expect will be a lower #.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Oh my goodness.

          Well at 4th interview, I don’t know what to say. I guess, after one more conversation with B, I think I’d accept A.

    2. Mando Diao*

      A year ago I accepted a remote position (I go to the office one day a week) in a field that I’m iffy about because the manager and coworkers are so nice and because I figured it would be easy for me to stick it out for three or four years until I’m ready to move on (I’m working on a certification in the field I’m actually interested in, and I’m also planning to move eventually). I can tell you that it was 100% the right choice for me. I’m getting a great resume “bullet point” and earning a really solid reference. The pay isn’t the absolute best, but I never have any stress. I love it.

      As for more general advice, I’d think long and hard about the commute. If you can’t negotiate your pay, you can mentally negotiate your commute with yourself. I’d take lower pay for a shorter commute. Also, consider which job you’re likely to stay at the longest. The car thing is rough, but if you can afford one and you think you’ll eventually need a car no matter what, I wouldn’t use that as a reason to accept or decline a job offer.

    3. misspiggy*

      Probably best to pretend Company B doesn’t exist. Will two or three years with Company A get you closer to where you want to be? Can you afford to wait until something more interesting comes up?

      1. TAR*

        It might? At the very least, I get the vibe that A is interested in my particular unusual skill set and is willing to pay me accordingly and give me the time to pursue side projects, etc. And without a commute, it will be easier to network near where I live since I won’t be stuck in traffic.

        I also know that B, which interesting and exciting work, is obviously not sold on me YET (hence the 4th interview!) which means I tend to doubt they’re going to be willing to match A’s offer.

  145. anonymouse*

    For the first time in the 4 years in my position, this seriously just happened:
    I work in manufacturing in a farming community. I’m the HR director. I’m looking for 2 summer help employees. I had a couple 18 year olds (I know of the young men, and as long as they’re at least 18 I don’t care how old they are) apply last week but we were holding off on interviews waiting for more apps. One of the moms just called to see why I hadn’t called her son for an interview yet! I have a son the same age and I cannot even imagine. I kept it together until I got off the phone with her and emailed the hiring manager. He’ll love this one. Does this really happen often?

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Hope you don’t hold it against the applicant, but yes it does happen. There are many 18 and 19 yo’s struggling to loosen the bonds are far, far, overreaching parents.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Oh and I hope you shut Mom down. “I’m not at liberty to discuss Wakeens application.”

    3. BRR*

      not sure how often but sometimes its all on the parent. My mom unknowingly to me called my advisor in college.

  146. JM in England*

    I would really like to hear any possible alternate takes on my current situation detailed below.

    I’m currently working in a contract position, with the contract ending in two months time (unless I’m told otherwise in writing). Therefore, I am actively job seeking. Had my CV etc put forward for a position by a recruiter; however the feedback from the employer was that they were not progressing me to the interview stage because my recent experience has consisted entirely of contract work and that this indicated “movement” (employer’s words). Both myself and the recruiter were stunned and angry at this. It would seem that this company would rather take people willing to uproot themselves from a long term (say 5 years plus) job.

    To give some context, I had to leave my last permanent job 4.5 years ago to deal with a family crisis. Since then, contract work (interspersed with period of unemployment, the longest of which was 1 year) seems to be the only thing available in my field, thanks mainly to the current worldwide economic climate. Therefore I take these contract gigs to stay employed since, as it is well known, that it’s easier to find another job whilst still in one. So when asked by recruiters why I “choose” to take contract work (which is very annoying btw), I tell them that it’s the choice between working & not working. Therefore, I feel like I’m between a rock & a hard place, with my recent record of contract jobs being another hurdle between me and a permanent job! :-(

    I’m trying to move on mentally from this, telling myself that the company’s response say a lot more about them than me. Also, if this is how they treat applicants, what must they be like to work for?

    1. burnout*

      Surely most companies don’t have the same opinion about contract workers? This is just one company and I agree with you – this says a lot about them, not about you.

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with contract work. It is work!

    2. Megs*

      It totally sucks, but there are fields where contract work is considered little better (or even worse) than unemployment – I know because I’m in one (law), although I think the stigma has lifted somewhat with the collapse of the legal job market. The fact that you and the recruiter were both stunned by this reaction makes me think that this isn’t the case with your field, however, and that this employer was just a snob. I think your last paragraph is spot on!

      1. JM in England*

        I know exactly where you’re coming from. At one place I worked over 20 years ago, the contract workers wore different coloured name badges; if you forgive the analogy, it was like wearing a yellow star in 1930s Germany! Also, a lot of the posts on the jobs board were only for established employees………..

    4. Joanna*

      As frustrating as it is to miss out on a job, I think what you’ve experienced is a sign the company is a dysfunctional, has a questionable grasp on reality and may end up being a frustrating place to work for.

      2. JM in England*

        Have looked this company up on Glassdoor, but there’s no entries of any kind for them.

    5. Kate the Little Teapot*

      What some people do is wrap contract work up into an “independent consultancy” on their resume. You can list these various companies as your clients and list what you did. As long as you give your references a heads up this shouldn’t be an issue.

      Then the reason for leaving independent consulting becomes something like “I learned a lot from operating as a consultant but after a few years I’ve concluded that I value the stability and benefits of a full-time job, and would prefer to focus on my profession without having to sell my skills.” You’re then giving a message that you COULD be doing something else but instead choose to do this, which is a bit of a different spin from “it’s the choice between working and not working.”

      That said this employer sounds shitty.

      1. JM in England*

        I’ve never thought about it from that angle, Kate. I’ll create a version of my CV using this format and see what happens………………

  147. Scout*

    So, this post is about my husband having brain cancer. (Also, my first post. Sorry to open with such a downer.)

    The backstory: We found out 3 years ago that my husband has brain cancer…very slow growing, but incurable. At the time he was in school. He quit school and has been undergoing various treatments for the bulk of that time. He he’s been unemployed/on disability for the last three years.

    At the end of last month, he got hired for a professional job at the local public university! Full-time, great benefits, and so far he really likes it. A whopping 4 weeks in, we went for his usual check up, and it turns out that his tumor is growing and he needs to re-start treatment. The most likely scenario is another brain surgery, which will take at least 4-6 weeks for recovery. The good news is given his employer I don’t expect any funny business with FMLA or short-term disability. And the surgery isn’t urgent so he can spend a couple more months learning the job before he has to take time off.

    Prior to this we had been planning a “bucket list” type vacation for next year. But I would really, really love to take some time off to travel with him BEFORE he has surgery. The last two months he has been off treatment entirely and he is like new different person. This is the only period in the last three years that he has been feeling up to active travel, I have this strong urge to something major together, not knowing when our next opportunity will be. I don’t think he see’s asking for the time off as an option. (He doesn’t have any accrued vacation yet).

    So here’s the question; would it be reasonable for him to ask his employer to take some unpaid time off prior to his surgery? I know its crazy to ask for a vacation 4 weeks into a new job, but this is not normal circumstances. He is going to be out for 4-6 week anyway, what’s another week or two? Obviously, I don’t expect them to say yes, but they might. But would it hurt for him to to ask? Would it come across as a reasonable request given the situation, or just entitled?

    Thanks.

    1. Megs*

      I am so sorry to hear about your husband – I can’t imagine how rough the last few years have been. My admittedly limited experience working for a public university was very positive, but there are always unreasonable people out there. Under normal circumstance I don’t think anyone would recommend asking for a vacation a week or two into a new job, but these are anything but! Is there any way to frame this as time he needs to prepare for the surgery? Assuming he tells the boss about both at once, it would be a pretty horrible person to see this as entitled.

      That said, it very well might hurt his employment, and it may be that it’s more important for your husband right now to get back in the game, as it were. That’s all between the two of you, of course, but maybe there’s some middle ground where he can continue at his new job and you still have some new experiences together? I don’t know about you, or where you live, but I know that every time I have family from out of town visiting, I really reach out of my comfort zone and find new things to do right in my back yard. It’s not the same as a major vacation, but maybe an acceptable compromise?

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      First, of course, I’m so sorry for your family’s troubles. :(

      Now, onto the question, wherein I ask you one: What’s your family goal with this job? I don’t know the timeline of the husband’s prognosis. If the goal is to retain the job and to work for their for the next five to 10 years, asking for unpaid time off before the medical leave, so short into the job, that’s not a good long term signal. I don’t know if your husband wants to underscore the terminal part with this new employer which, you might kinda need to do that in order to have a way to explain what sounds tone deaf, asking for unpaid vacation on top of medical leave.

      If the family goal is to maximize the potential of time and to Live! Life!, I can’t see how normal rules will matter. The employer either says yes or no, and potential career repercussions, who cares.

    3. Graciosa*

      Ouch – I think I agree with your husband that this isn’t really an option to ask for time to travel for pleasure less than a month into a new job and immediately before taking a major amount of leave. I am sorry, because I really do sympathize. Unfortunately, I think the time to ask for a break to travel for pleasure would have been in setting the start date so you could take the time without impacting the employer.

      I’m not sure I would characterize it as entitled, but I do think you’re right to wonder about how it looks. Everyone should understand the need for time off for a major medical issue and be sympathetic. Asking for vacation time to build good memories before the surgery after such a short time – when they haven’t had any opportunity to form much of an opinion of your husband’s work ethic or character – may be perceived as taking advantage of the medical issue as a ploy for benefits that would not otherwise be granted. In your husband’s situation, I would probably not want to risk that kind of message either, or appear to be taking advantage.

      There is a part of me that would understand – given the potential severity – forgetting about work and asking for the time anyway. If the surgery has a very poor outcome, you would probably think it was completely worth it.

      One of the things that’s holding me back is that your husband is not in favor, and this is his life and his career. I think arguing for him to spend this critical time in a way other than his choice would not be anything I recommend.

      I am very sorry that the two of you are going through this – it’s a terrible thing to deal with, and my heart goes out to both of you.

    4. BRR*

      Im sorry you have to go through this. I’m sort of with wakeens comment , what’s your goal with the job? If its long term employment he’s going to harm his reputation by even asking. also by asking, you’re putting a difficult decision on someone else. His manager might not want to approve it because they’re going to be down one person 4-6 weeks, the position has been open so theyve been down a person, and in a way they’re still down because your husband hasn’t been trained. But who’s going to be the monster who denies a bucket list trip for the person with terminal cancer? It’s putting someone else in a difficult position and I’m not saying do it but just really consider that point before you do it.

      1. BRR*

        Sublementing, there are reasonable needs for the business and it’s putting the manager in a tough spot. I wonder if it was hard to get approval for this position which has been the case For many public universities.

    5. Scout*

      Thank you all for the thoughtful comments. What I have realized reading through all your responses, is that my question is a selfish one. I am thinking about my needs and desires rather than his. Given the severity of the situation it seems like either asking for the leave (or not) could be a reasonable decision based on our goals. But I really need to leave this decision up to him and not pressure him.

      As much as I hate the idea of him potentially missing out on a major life experience – and of me missing out on time with him – for “a job” I can’t tell him what his priorities should be. He was out of work for so long, I think it really messed with his identity and his self worth. His whole outlook has been so much better since he’s been back at work. We don’t need his job to survive financially (given his health status we’ve made a decision to never live a lifestyle where we need two incomes) so it’s easy for me say “s***w it” its just a job. But whatever he decides to do need to be his decision fully.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        BTDT regarding the selfish stuff. Can you do day trips on the weekends? Or can you maybe stay overnight at a B and B near you? What about museums or other close to home activities that you could share?
        There is a tipping point and I am not sure where. There is a point where, yes, you are allowed to “be selfish” to some extent. You can ask for something you want even if it’s a toned down version of what you want. I mean this in the context of something that is reasonable and doable for him too.
        I don’t see anything wrong with telling him that you would still like the two of you to do some fun things together before he moves to the next phase of his treatment. Ask him to help plan something that is short, cheap and doable for the both of you. It might work out to be as good as what you originally wanted.

        I am sorry you guys are going through this.

  148. Blunderbusst*

    (Long-time lurker, first-time commenter, wondering: should I apply for this thing?)

    I work in a happy and productive 9-person unit, have held this position for almost 3 years, and generally “exceed expectations” in multiple areas on my annual evaluations.

    Recently, our Head Teapot Maker retired, and our Second-in-Command Teapot Maker ascended to the Head position. The now-vacant Second-in-Command position supervises 5 Level-Three Teapot Makers and the Teapot Manufacturing Floor Supervisor, to whom I currently report. Supervisor and I do similar work, with Supervisor overseeing day-to-day manufacturing, me covering admin tasks, and overlapping all our other duties and covering for each other during absences. It has been suggested/assumed that I would take that position and hire my replacement when Supervisor retires at the end of this year.

    It has also been assumed that Frank, one of our Level-Three Teapot Makers, would take the Second-in-Command position. Leadership posted the job today, as an internal opportunity open only to our unit. I was surprised to read that the job description includes the phrase “needs to have a general knowledge of the technical aspects of [Supervisor’s] duties.” At the same time, the posted requirements are light on the technical aspects of teapot manufacturing. It reads to me as purposely vague to open the position to as many people in our unit as might be interested.

    While I don’t have the hands-on experience of manufacturing teapots every day, I do meet the “general knowledge” requirement, as well as the supervisory requirement. I have stronger soft skills and more supervisory experience than Frank, but less technical experience and physical strength (there are physical requirements to the position, all of which I can do, but have not demonstrated in my current “sit most of the time” role).

    Would it be wildly presumptuous to apply? Are there downsides if I do?

    1. BRR*

      Does internal only mean something when your company does it? My last employer would post internal only if they had someone in Mind but still had to post it. Can you talk to the head teapot maker and express that you’re interested and ask if he thinks you should apply?

      1. Blunderbusst*

        I absolutely can — and most likely will — but I wanted to get a sense of whether I’m reading the qualifications naively. We are all so close here that I don’t want to put Head Teapot Maker on the spot if they have been thinking Frank would be the best choice all along.

        That said, we wouldn’t have to post it internally if they just wanted to promote Frank, but it is the smart thing to do, since there are 4 other Level-Three Teapot Makers. In the past year, all of them have expressed that they don’t want the Second-in-Command spot though!

        1. Jennifer*

          Having been the one who got passed over because they had really meant it for someone else, if I were you I’d recommend checking and asking.

  149. Charlean Sadler*

    I graduated with my master’s last year and it’s a career change for me. After a LONG job search (2 years while currently employed) I received my dream offer. It is 5k more than my top number! The benefits package is outstanding. I’m working with a recruiter so I think the negotiations would be through him. But the question is should I negotiate? From all my research this offer is above market rate as is. I wouldn’t ask for more than base +5%. Would it be a slap in the face?

    1. CAA*

      Did you ever state a salary expectation to the recruiter or the employer or have any conversation where either of them gave you a number or range and you indicated that it matched your expectations? [As an aside — if not, why not?] Remember, any conversation you had with the recruiter has been relayed to the employer. He works for them, not you, and if you gave him your current salary, then they also know that number.

      There is no requirement to negotiate; and if you did give a number or they gave you a number, and everybody seemed to agree to it, then it’s not good to come back now and say you want more. If there really has been no discussion of money, or you gave a range and they’re on the low end, you can definitely ask for more. Since overall you’re happy with the offer, I would suggest not dragging out the negotiations. Ask once, then accept whatever they come back with.

      1. Charlean S.*

        Thank you for your advice. I ended up reaching out to the recruiter and I found out he did give them the original number I told him I was looking for. They ended up offering an extra 5k over my number. Overall all I’m VERY happy but I always heard that you should negotiate. I also hear all the usual information that women rarely do, are underpaid, should “lean in”, etc. to the point where I was nervous about not doing so. Again, this all before I found out they knew my top number. Bottom line, I’m not going to negotiate and gladly take their offer.

        1. mander*

          I don’t think you should negotiate just for the sake of it. If you’re happy with everything as it stands then accept it.

  150. De Minimis*

    I feel like I may be considering an ill-advised move pretty soon….

    My current job is not what I really pictured myself doing, and I am considering making a jump or at least seeing what’s out there. I haven’t been at this job very long, and can stick it out if I have to, but at the same time I’m pretty unhappy. I’ve been here around 8 months.
    The job pays well, but the work is not engaging, and is a lot of really mundane clerical/office work, very similar to the work I was doing in college when I was temping as an accounting clerk. I’m a CPA with a graduate degree and a few years of experience, and I’m spending a lot of my time stuffing envelopes, answering the phone, filing, and doing data entry. At the same time, it’s the most money I’ve ever made, and the benefits are really good. I like the people I work with for the most part, but the job is not a good fit for me as far as my abilities and weaknesses in the workplace, and as far as what I’m interested in doing.

    Also, even though the job isn’t that stimulating, the time expectations seem to be pretty high mainly due to the personal habits of my manager [he’s there almost all the time, and I can feel this sense of disappointment when I leave after only being there 8-9 hours.] There doesn’t seem to be much hope of advancement as far as the actual work–there may be pay/title increases that look good on paper, but the work will probably be largely the same. There are people above me who are doing the actual accounting work, and they are not going anywhere.

    My work history is spotty, though I’ve done better in recent years. The economy where I live seems to be booming, and I have been getting messages from recruiters. Last week one of them had a job that actually might be something I’m interested in doing. I’m considering replying, and also maybe seeing what else is out there.

    I know the smart thing would be to stay here at least two years [three would be better] but I don’t know if I can stand it that long. The job has also had some negative health impacts on me I guess due to overall unhappiness, lack of sleep, etc., and I find it tough to enjoy my time off because I start dreading coming back to work.

    Not sure what I should do.

    1. Joanna*

      It’s worth a try seeing what the recruiters have to offer. If someone is to offer you a better job it’s a bit silly to stay in your current one just so you’ll hit some magic number of years worked.

      If you decide you do need to stick around for a while longer, consider if there’s things you can do in your spare time that would make life feel a bit more fulfilling. Perhaps you could take up a new hobby or enrol in an evening course to learn something interesting. If you’ve got fulfilling stuff happening outside work, there’s less pressure on your job to make you happy.

      I could be way off the mark here, but it may be worth seeing a medical professional to look into whether the health issues are caused by an existing physical or mental health issue. How it sometimes seems to work is that an existing condition screws with your sleep and energy which makes your job seem more unpleasant. Your job seeming more unpleasant makes you even more lethargic and less able to sleep, trapping you into a downward spiral.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      The guidelines about job hopping are, I think, sort of like solid advice about having a savings account. Solid work history is meant to be money in the bank so that when Something Happens and you need to get a new job, you don’t have swiss cheese that makes it harder.

      Now me, I’m kinda the opposite. I have close to 30 years at the same place. That’s *not* the perfect money-in-the-bank resume for someone in senior management is it? Nope. Nope. Nope . I’m fully aware of the “rules” and I’ve always understood the risks and then made my choices.

      It’s the same thing for you and also exploring jobs doesn’t mean getting an offer and accepting it. Hell, if you start exploring now, it might be 6 to 9 months before the right job makes an offer anyway. Maybe it will make you feel good enough, just exploring, not feeling trapped, that your days go better. Quality of life matters.

      1. De Minimis*

        Thanks for the advice everyone….I think it doesn’t hurt to at least look.

        Where I live, commuting sucks up a lot of my energy during the week so there really isn’t time for anything else other than work, getting to and from work, having dinner, and maybe having an hour or so of free time before bed, and that will probably never change as long as we’re living in this part of the country…there are no affordable, safe areas near work that would be practical for my wife and I. But I think I can try and see if I can find something that I can put out of my head as soon as I leave and not think about it again until I walk in the door. I was trying to catch up on sleep just now and couldn’t, because I started thinking about work.

        I think even if I had a different job that I still didn’t like that much, I’d feel better if I at least felt like it wasn’t a step backward from my previous work.

  151. Lentils*

    Might be a little late, it’s 5:30 where I am, but worth a try. How do you respond politely to a team member who has always been super polite and understanding when you give him feedback, but who got placed in retraining today and began sending me and my coworker/supervisor a lot of angry capslocked emails about “errors” he found in the training?

    Background: he works in transcription, I’m the team lead (I’m 24 and basically got promoted by accident and have had to figure a lot of this out on my own), and his quality scores have been mysteriously low for the last couple weeks, but when I perform QA on a sample of his work, I can’t find anything too out of the ordinary. It’s baffling to myself and my supervisors, and I’ve tried to communicate to him that we trust his quality so that he won’t get too upset or discouraged, but the angry barrage of capslock came out of nowhere today. I know it doesn’t equal someone screaming in my face, exactly, but it rattled me. I don’t have to really worry about it until Tuesday because of the long weekend, but it’d be helpful to have someone else’s perspective.

    1. Joanna*

      I would think that all caps rants are pretty much the equivalent of yelling in someone’s face since they’ve kinda designed to show anger and aggression.

      Perhaps a way of framing this is to emphasise that training is not punishment. Rather it’s an investment made now to deal with lingering minor issues in his work style now that will pay off in the future by preventing little bad habits from getting further embedded, saving him and others time in fixing up the work.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Aww, poor guy. He’s clearly very upset.

      If he’s always been otherwise a good egg, give him a little bit of time to simmer down. Good people can lose it, too. If this continues past the holiday weekend, you’ll need to tell him (or your manager needs to) that the aggression is unwelcome and he needs to sort himself.

      People with a good track record get one free pass on losing it, don’t you think?

      1. AnotherTeacher*

        Agreed. It sounds like something else might be going on, too, perhaps in his personal life.

    3. Kira*

      I’m a little confused about what’s going on. You say he has low quality scores, but you can’t figure out what he’s doing wrong? Somehow, he ended up getting placed in retraining, and he found errors in the training?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I bet he can’t figure out either. It might be a good idea for you, OP,to take a closer look and find out what the heck is going on here.

  152. Elizabeth*

    A few of my colleagues and I are on contacts that lack paid leave of any kind and don’t have many of the perks of normal contracts. One of the few advantages here is that while any leave is unpaid, the amount we can take is not capped. The previous manager couldn’t approve leave requests absolutely every time, but was generally very accommodating and sorted out any issues with minimal drama.

    The new manager however is being unreasonable. He’s decided that all leave requests must be in a long time in advance (the deadline has already passed for Christmas). He’s also decided that only a tiny number of people (equivalent to about 7% of the department) can be away at any time, even during periods were the volume of work coming in is likely to be lower than usual. No special consideration is given to people who have some special reason they need leave or who are part of the minority who doesn’t get paid leave. Instead leave is allocated via random draw conducted in front of everyone requesting leave in which the people discovering they won’t be getting to spend Christmas or other occasions with their family are stuck in a small conference room observing the joy of those who got lucky. The stress and drama of being at the mercy of such a system is taking its toll on people. It’s really harming office morale and I won’t be surprised if it drives people to quit. It was just horrible watching a colleague who is on one of the unlimited unpaid leave contracts and who desperately needed leave due to a very painful situation in her family panic about the fact that she would likely be unsuccessful in the draw (thankfully she was in the lucky tiny group drawn).

    Anyone have ideas on how to get the manager to behave in a way that’s more reasonable and less drama causing?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      This is so bad, I wonder if you should send this to Alison as a regular AAM question. You’re late in the open thread here so aren’t likely to get good input (and I haven’t an idea how to sort this matter :(). Why don’t you send the question to Alison and ask her if she’d like to answer it or, repost earlier next week for more input.

      I really can’t even with this mess.

      1. Jo*

        Thanks. I’m a bit nervous to send it in as a regular question lest someone involved recognises the situation, but I might try again next week to get it into the open thread a bit earlier as I doubt anyone from the office will see if it’s just in the comments

  153. Nervous Accountant*

    A little late but hopefully I can get some feedback.

    I was forwarded a job posting from a professional organization. I passed it along to 3 of my coworkers.
    It all happened on personal emails and they all know. (FWIW I would hate to lose them but it seemed like a good opportunity)…..Is there anything I should be aware of? Could I get I. Trouble for this??

    1. Joanna*

      Unless you stood to benefit somehow (like it was a company you did some work for or there was a referral fee paid) or you were using work time to do it, I doubt it would be a problem.

      1. Title-in-limbo*

        This is standard at my place of employment, even “on the clock”. As long as it’s not your personal side business/no direct benefit to you, it’s a professional courtesy.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      It’s unlikely you’d be found out or could get in trouble. Not done on company email, conversations on the QT, not part of a bigger effort to recruit people out of the company. You’re being circumspect. I wouldn’t worry.

  154. Crazyness*

    I had a friends husband apply and interview for two jobs. He got both of them. Was in the middle of deciding. After offers were made somehow the two hiring managers (at 2 different types of businesses) found out and dropped their offers and told him he didn’t have any integrity. So weird. No one can figure out how the two companies found out…he’s convinced it was from something she posted on facebook but she never mentioned the companies. But still I feel like he did nothing wrong and was playing the game of picking the best offer.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      What?

      That’s normal course of business. How did the friend’s husband happen on two people, at the same time, who don’t understand that’s normal course of business.

      1. Gaara*

        That’s messed up! This is a huge red flag that those employers wouldn’t have had appropriate professional boundaries, anyhow. It sucks not to get a job, but maybe the friend’s husband can take some solace in that?

    2. Marvel*

      What? I can’t help but feel like there’s more to the story here–most companies understand that candidates are applying for multiple jobs.

      1. Crazyness*

        Yeah she did say it’s def. a red flag and is thinking that the jobs probably wouldn’t have worked out but she is sitll trying to figure out how the two companies found out.

        It’s so weird. I hate the games some of these companies play.

  155. Gaara*

    I was introduced to, and had a coffee meeting with, the hiring partner at a small law firm a couple months ago. That firm is very similar to mine in terms of its business, but it is run very differently (in a way that I strongly prefer) . The hiring partner told me that they’ve been thinking about expanding, but weren’t sure if they had enough business to pull the trigger, but that I would be a great fit in our niche practice area if so. I followed up at the time to express interest if they decide to add someone and that I’d like to stay in touch, etc.

    I’m up to make partner at my firm in January, and have been told by the partners at my current law firm that it will happen. Is there a way I can use this information to remind the other firm that I’m out there and interested, and to see if they’re likely to move in the direction of expanding in the near future?

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I’m not in law, but I don’t think there is any need to push the other firm. They expressed interest, and once you have followed up once the ball is really in their court. Keep checking to see if they have openings, but otherwise assume no. It would not make the other group “move quickly” if they here you are getting promoted.

    2. Spunky Brewster*

      As a partner in your current firm, can you influence the way the business is run?

  156. mander*

    I’m a bit late but I have some good news I want to throw out there in the universe.

    This week I was offered a contract extension until September! I was quite surprised to get it because I knew that only 15 out of nearly 30 staff would be getting extensions due to a work slowdown. I didn’t think I was good enough to be in the top group in the scoring exercise the supervisors completed last week. But apparently my immediate supervisor really made a strong case for me. It feels really good after spending several years unemployed and getting no responses to any of my applications.

  157. Kate the Little Teapot*

    I had an internal interview for a more senior position. I came in second.

    I didn’t realize until after the post-interview debriefing when I asked for specific feedback on how I can improve and the manager had none and just wanted to have a friendly chat (and ignored my “I don’t want to take up your time, would you like to head off so you can prepare for your next meeting?” polite cue), and then a little bird told me that the reason it went down like that was that I was in a dead heat with the candidate who got the role and so there wasn’t something she could really tell me to improve.

    Is there anything that I should be doing differently? Should I be having certain kinds of conversations with the manager to ensure that I’m kept in line for the next role or just make an effort to keep in touch? I have not done this internal interview thing before.

    1. Eric*

      If you were the second choice, I imagine it was less to do with any flaws they found with your skills/presentation/etc. than it was with something the other person had that pushed them over the edge. I have been in that position before, and one time the hiring manager even qualified it with something like “it’s not that you were a bad interviewer in any way at all, it’s just that the other person had some more experience in our specific market.”

      I always mentally prepare myself for job rejections by reminding myself that the rejection doesn’t necessarily say anything about me at all (it can, but it’s unlikely that it did here). A rejection says that the company found another candidate they liked more, and that either has to do with the hiring manager or the rest of the applicant pool, neither of which you can control.

  158. Eric*

    What should I do when I think a recruiter is misrepresenting my skills to hiring managers?

    I ask this question because it’s happened several times. I’ll be contacted by an agency recruiter for a job, and be told that there’s no published job description but the recruiter’s placed people there before, but the hiring manager told them they’re looking for XYZ skills which I possess.

    Then comes the in-person interview, where I get asked a bunch of in-depth questions about something I don’t know, and don’t misrepresent myself as knowing. In this situation I just go “actually, I don’t know it that well.” Looking back, I think that response seems a little questionable.

    I think a response more along the lines of “I’m sorry, I don’t know [that thing]. The recruiter told me that you were looking for people with extensive skill in [thing I do know well] and didn’t bring up [thing I don’t know] at all. Were they incorrect? Because if it is, then I think I’m not what you’re looking for, and this job isn’t what I’m looking for, so we may as well cut it short now and get on with our days.” be badmouthing the recruiter, or does it sound like something a responsible candidate would say?

    1. Kate the Little Teapot*

      I would qualify your “I don’t know it that well” with “How important is this to this role?” or “How often will we be using this skill day-to-day?” Those questions will allow you to say something like “Well, I can learn this, I’ve learned Y related skill” or “Sorry, it sounds like you’re saying you need a specialist in X – am I getting that right?” If they need specialists in X and the recruiter is not providing them they will quickly realize without you bringing it up.

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