open thread – June 17-18, 2016

by Alison Green on June 17, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,156 comments }

{ 1,156 comments… read them below }

  1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    I finally gave notice at my job! I wikl be free! My last day will be on the eighth–I had to tell my boss ahead of the two weeks time frame as I’m taking off all of next week for unavoidable reasons.

    His reaction when I explained everything and said I’d like to work til the 8th if that was okay with him? “Well, I guess that’s not really up to me, is it?” I legit stared at him for a moment because he truly does not get that it’s his business and he could tell me to leave on the spot if he wanted to. Just one more symptom of a guy completely clueless about how to manage, what his responsibilities should be, and how to treat his employees. And he wonders why people keep leaving.

    2. Christopher Tracy*

      Be grateful he’s that clueless, otherwise, you’d be out of a job earlier than you wanted to be. Congrats on giving notice!

    3. Christina*

      I’m giving notice on Monday with only some small freelance stuff lined up and some contacts at creative contract agencies. My stomach is in knots, but I am so excited to be free from my insane manager.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Congrats, FDCA!
      Squirrels can’t help but behave like squirrels, it really tough to get them to act like a dog or a bird. Hold on to that thought.

  2. Shayland (ActualName)*

    Hey…

    It’s ActualName here. I’m changing my handle, and I’ll change my picture in a few.

    So…

    I got terminated from my summer camp job. It’s incredibly frustrating, because even before I came to the camp my accommodations weren’t interactive. I didn’t know what I needed, I didn’t know what would work… They just said, “hey, you’re dog’s going to be crated here, and during this activities you’ll be able to visit and take care of her.” It turned out that what that meant was she would be crated for twelves hours a day, and then tethered to my side in a tinny, cramped cabin.

    Yeah, I found out real quick that wasn’t going to work. I tried to make it work anyway. And I talked with so, so, so many of my co-workers and other staff members about it and about possible alternatives. But I never got to speak to the person who was ultimately in charge, except to say that I was ready to send Branka home, and that an alternative accommodation listed by my doctor would work instead. (This is because my supervisor turned out to be amazing and would really be able to provide me with the feed back, emotional support, and validation I would need to do my job.)

    I didn’t see it coming. My supervisor didn’t see it coming.

    Since my dog couldn’t do her f***ing job confined to a cage – and since a got reprimanded for the one time she actually could (and it was even brought up in my termination letter, that having my dog preform deep pressure therapy was not okay.) – I had to figure something else out. And I thought that I did.

    I just… never got to talk to anyone actually in charge of my accommodations about it, except for that one five second conversation. I had been told so, so, so many times that it was fine.

    Anyway…. it just all came as a shock. Because of some of the details I’m looking into getting legal help with this. I don’t really know, other than an apology, what I want to happen next.

    I had to be kept on suicide watch for a while, and then I got really sick. I’m still recovering… I don’t want my job back. I was really afraid of my supervisor’s supervisor. When I left so many people came up to tell me how incredibly sorry they were that they weren’t going to get to know me. So many of them said that they could already tell I was an incredible person…

    It was great, that they didn’t assume that my termination was my fault. A lot of them were scared and upset themselves. I didn’t know what to tell them.

    What the said they stressed they terminated me for? It wasn’t even a problem. My doctor and I just listed it on the paper work in case it would be. And literally the smallest possible change would be needed to accommodate it. One of my co-workers has a similar disability and she was fine!

    And my family is doing a lot of traveling this summer, and I know I’m not up to it because of this. I’ll be spending the weekend and most of next week alone with my dog and with my family’s dog.

    Anyway, I’m just…
    Really, really hurt.

    1. Bend & Snap*

      I’m so sorry to read this. I’ve never heard of someone being let go due to an accommodation. Please take care of yourself.

    2. Karo*

      I have nothing to offer other than hugs and support. What they did to you is awful – all of it, from how they treated your dog to refusing to work with you on accommodations.

      1. Shayland (ActualName)*

        Hugs and support are still a huge help. And you forgot to list validation. That means a lot too. <3

    4. Caledonia*

      I’m so sorry to hear this. I’m glad that your supervisor was helpful and I hope that given time you can come back from this stronger. You sound like you did all you could do and more (by giving them an alternative to the dog) and they just behaved pretty crappily towards you.

      *internet hugs and cake*

      1. Shayland (ActualName)*

        Yeah, I’ve contacted the ACLU. I’m hoping to hear back from them. Otherwise I’m not really sure *how* to find a lawyer.

        1. Pwyll*

          If the ACLU declines, you can usually find lawyer referral services via a Google search for (state) or (county) or (city) + lawyer referral. Almost always the bar associations website pop up first, and they can help find you an appropriate Attorney.

          Additionally, in many states summer camps are highly regulated given they usually employ large numbers of minors. As such, you may want to figure out who regulates them in your state (in some, it’s the Department of Labor) and contact them, as this might be considered a licensing violation.

          I’m so sorry about this happening. Best of luck to you!

          1. Shayland (ActualName)*

            I’ve never heard of a referral service, actually, so that’s super helpful. The people who hired me are a local branch of a national organization (I have said who in the past, but I don’t want to mention it now because I don’t think the national group is to blame) and I was thinking of contacting the national organization about my experience to see what they can do. But I would really want a lawyer to help with it.

            Your second bit of advise is great to. I’m not sure if I should wait to hear from the ACLU before looking into other options or not (now that I have more of a clue what the next steps might be).

            Thanks for the luck and support? ~~ <3

            1. Fact & Fiction*

              As someone who formerly worked in the legal field, you are perfectly within your rights to contact more than one attorney to discuss your options. It’s only once you actually sign with a particular attorney that you would want to not discuss the potential case with anyone else.

              Also, I am so sorry you had to go through this. Give yourself plenty of extra care and gentleness while you deal with this. And I’m so happy you and your dog are out of a crappy situation!

        2. Lady Bug*

          You can also try your local law school, many have clinics run by students and they might be able to recommend someone if they cant help.

    6. CB499*

      I’m so sorry to hear about this!

      Just out of curiousity, is this a continuation of a previous post? I’m a bit confused and feel like I’m missing some background information.

      1. Shayland (ActualName)*

        Sort of. I was posting weekly in the open thread for a while about going to summer camp and requesting accommodations and all that.

        1. Q*

          I also am not familiar with the specifics but I think its terrible they expected you to crate your therapy dog all day. Or at all really. The whole purpose of those dogs is to be there next to you when needed. This sounds like a really bad situation for you and I hope you are able to get past it. Don’t let those people ruin your summer. You did nothing wrong.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Right? Crating a therapy dog literally defeats the entire purpose of having the dog there… wtf.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Crates were never intended to house the animal for more than a short period. Twelve hours sounds to me like they were making you abuse your own animal.

              I am thoroughly disgusted, and this is not even my issue. I hope you get some satisfaction if you pursue this.

            1. Meghan*

              That just makes the situation worse. What is the point of crating a service dog? Why would they EVER ask you to do that?

              1. Blurgle*

                And I see you’re talking to the ACLU; sorry.

                I asked because depending on the province there are public boards that handle such things (the local one is, confusingly for baseball fans, the MLB) without the need to see a lawyer first.

    7. Kelly L.*

      I’m so sorry. That sucks. I’m glad you and your dog are away from what sounds like a horrible place, but they are assholes.

    9. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I hope your lawyer tears them a new one…legally speaking, of course. They are jerks, and they deserve to be sued out of business so someone else with some sense, some compassion, and/or some empathy can take over.

    10. LawCat*

      Terrible! So sorry to hear this. Take care of yourself. It couldn’t hurt to consult a lawyer even if you ultimately decide you don’t want to deal with legal action. A friend of mine went through having an employer that failed to engage in the interactive process. It’s so messed up because it isn’t that flippin’ hard to just have conversations with an employee (maybe there isn’t a way to accommodate, but how can anyone know without discussing it?)

      Take care of yourself, that’s #1.

      1. Shayland (ActualName)*

        Thanks for the support. It’s so horrible because I was told by everyone that things were fine whenever I asked, and I asked often. There were so many times where I opened away to talk about my accommodations but nothing. And then of course when I was told about the changes that had been chosen for me… well I didn’t want to push. And I feel like they picked the most outrageous work arounds so they could claim it was unreasonable… which it was, but so many other things could have worked.

        I’m doing my best with the self care. So far that’s meant lots of dog cuddles and video games.

    11. LCL*

      I’m sorry that your supervisor turned out to be a jerk. I have read it is all too common that a supervisor will talk about being inclusive and accommodating people but when it comes down to actually having to do something they won’t. ‘Accomodating’ your need for a service dog by requiring her to be crated 12 hours a day is acting in bad faith and isn’t an accommodation at all, no matter what your supervisor said.
      Some good did come out of this-you were able to negotiate the job initially, and when it wasn’t what was presented you held to your ground. You didn’t quit, you were terminated because you wouldn’t put up with unacceptable conditions. That is something to be proud of.
      So chill with the doggies this weekend, have a beer if that’s what you do, and don’t think about any work plans until Monday.

      1. Shayland (ActualName)*

        Thanks so much for saying this <3

        When I was waiting to be picked up (since I don't drive) I was able to talk with someone I was close with and who was involved in my hiring. She told me about how great I was in the interview, and was able to give me so much great feed back. I really rocked it, and I know I did. I am proud. I did my best, I was under so, so much stress from the unclear communication, and I was actually pretty afraid of my supervisor.

        But I was still professional. I did bawl when they read the letter to me, and for a long time after words. By what I said was professional. I did my best.

        (Thanks.)

        I'm actually too young to have a beer. My parents have offered sips of their drinks often in the past (they're trying to give me and my sibs a healthy relationship to alcohol). And I half serious, half jokingly asked if I could have a shot of something once I was home. They gave me ice cream instead.

        1. LJL*

          When I was in a similar situation, my BFF recommended a Reese’s Cup and a mindless novel. She was right. Passing on her advice in case it helps you too.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Ice cream (and doggie cuddles and video games) sounds like the best self-care ever. :D

          I’m sorry about this. They suck. They REALLY REALLY suck and now I want to kick them.

      2. Blurple*

        Absolutely. Acting in bad faith is the kindest way to put it!

        You should be proud of yourself for standing up for your needs and your rights. I’m proud of you, and I hope they piddle when they inevitably receive a call from your attorney.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Hahaha, off-topic, but there’s a TV ad for an injury law firm where the bad employer is reading email or talking to someone, who then says, “But they hired Widget Law Firm!” And the person freaks out or drops their coffee cup.

          I’d love to see one where they piddle. XD

      2. AnonEMoose*

        Awww…she’s gorgeous! Bernese Mountain Dog?

        I would seriously want to spend half an hour giving her pets and scritches (but wouldn’t, because she’s a service dog and needs to not be distracted). But she seriously reminds me of a dog my husband and I saw being walked by his people. When I said “Such a pretty dog,” and the people let him approach, he proceeded to plop down on my foot, lean back against my leg, and lean his head back to look up at me just like “I like you! PET ME!”

        1. WorkerBee 23*

          She’s so soft & fuzzy! (Well, I assume, anyway.) We have three mutts who are all mostly black – with distinct eyebrows too! – so I have a soft spot for them!

          My son has epilepsy & we have looked into getting a service dog for him. I cannot imagine anyone thinking this situation would be ok. I am so bummed for you.

        2. Shayland (ActualName)*

          We think she’s a Newfoundland, actually. But, since she’s a rescue we may never really know. (I know that their are dog DNA tests but ehh… I don’t really want to shell out a hundred dollars or so just to find out.)

          And she’s fluffer than she looks. :3
          I had to give her a summer hair cut (called a “lamb cut”) because of the heat. I took off about an inch and a fourth of fur all over. It completely changed the texture, and she really does look like a little black lamp.

      3. Fact & Fiction*

        That dog is just gorgeous! And you should definitely feel proud for standing up for yourself. I’m sorry to hear you received negativity about accommodations for your service dog. You have every right to have the accommodations you deserve and don’t let anyone ever make you feel otherwise.

      5. catsAreCool*

        Your dog is so beautiful! She looks like she’s smiling at the camera. How anyone could want you to crate such a sweet dog? I would think all the kids would want to come up and pet her.

    13. AF*

      One more possible suggestion – have you contacted the agency/organization through which you got your dog? They may have information or resources to help – possibly even an advocate who could speak to your former employer on your behalf, while you wait to find a lawyer. A call to your state’s Department of Labor might be a good idea as well.

      And I second what everyone said that whoever is responsible for this is an absolutely horrible human being. I hope you get resolution soon and can take some time to relax.

    14. Mimmy*

      I don’t blame you for being hurt one bit. A service animal is there to help you function, NOT to be crated for 12 hours a day. Is this a sleep-away camp?

      I’d say at the very least you should consider consulting with a lawyer. As someone else said, you do not have to commit to taking legal action, but this way, you at least know what your rights are.

      Another good resource: Every state has a “protection and advocacy” agency that works to promote the rights of people with disabilities. They have lawyers and advocates that can at the very least advise you about your rights. I’ll put the link in a separate reply (links automatically go to moderation). I’ll also include a link from the Job Accommodations Network about service animals.

      Best of luck – chin up!

      2. Shayland (ActualName)*

        Yep, it was sleep away camp.

        Thanks for the links as well, I’ll definitely look into it.

    15. overeducated*

      I’m so sorry this happened, I know you were nervous but excited about the job and did so much preparation trying to make it work. Having to go through that process is not an easy thing and the mental cost of all of that effort and worry is real, but the self-advocacy you did shows a lot of courage and persistence. I really hope that next time you get a job your supervisors and organization will be more willing to communicate transparently and find actually practical and workable accommodations.

      It sucks for the kids too, it’s good to be around people who are different in various ways AND to grow up seeing that if they have different needs they can still belong and do the same things as others. They will also have that example taken away because the camp couldn’t walk the walk.

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        Exactly! And I do NOT understand why on earth any organization wound WANT to crate a service dog and would think that was at all acceptable. I mean, I can see needing to balance camper safety/fears if any have dog phobias with the needs of the person/service dog, but plenty of places manage to make that work in a way that doesn’t separate person from service dog. I’m just shaking my head at this whole situation. It’s mind-boggling. I mean, if they weren’t going to truly accommodate you and your dog they should have never hired you. It’s not like they gave it a true, good faith effort and things just didn’t work out…

    16. zd*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry. Some people are the worst. Sending lots and lots of hugs to you and your beautiful dog who worked so hard to do her job under crazy circumstances.

    18. SophieChotek*

      I am sorry to hear that. It sounds like they did nothing to try to work with would have been a feasible solution.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      I think I am getting this, you asked a bizillion times about bringing your service dog. They said no problem, bring the dog.
      I am envisioning that you had to bring a bunch of clothes because you would be staying at this place. So there’s packing and planning and all that.
      You get there. They change the plan and basically make you lock your dog in a crate for 12 hours at a clip? And here you are stuck, you have to stay.
      I cannot imagine. I would be absolutely livid if someone made me put my dog in a crate for 12 hours at a clip and my dog is not a service animal. I don’t need him, I just enjoy his company. Now, were you allowed to feed and water the dog? Where you allowed to take him out to “go” every few hours?

      I have a huge problem with this. If they think this is okay to do to an animal then what the h*** are they doing with those kids?! There is a known correlation between animal and child abuse.

      You know what I think…. There has to be an agency that certifies them, you know, keeps them licensed so they can operate. I think if it were me I would be calling that certifying agency and reporting what happened and asking for an investigation. No way on earth would I want any kid of mine around these people.

      If they made me lock my dog up like that it would be almost like they locked me in a crate too. grrr. This is most upsetting. I grew up in a time where crates were called cages and it was considered cruel to put an animal in a cage. Now they have been re-marketed as a “tool” to help the animal. Yeah. okay. I wish you the best as you follow up on this one. Let us know how it goes for you.

      1. Shayland (ActualName)*

        I did ask a bunch, didn’t I? I was super stressed about it, and I had to turn in the paperwork later than they asked because the doctor they needed to fill it out was out of the country. Yeah, I packed a whole bunch of stuff, even bought a new bag of food since the one I had would run out while I was at camp, and a bunch of different books and crafts / camping supplies to donate.

        I felt like I couldn’t do anything when I found out what the conditions were, like, I’d already been late on the paperwork, and they made a huge deal out of me bringing to dog in the first place, and I just… dunno.

        I was told that I could take my dog out to potty, but the time frame they imagined was only three-ish times a day. And in reality, because they wanted me to walk her to a specific place and then let her do her business there, it was something I could really only do (after a long, long day of work) once.

        Unfortunately I was fired before any camper’s actually arrived so I can’t comment on that. I really do think it was just that this one person in power hated either me or my dog or both of us, to the point where I’m worried she was antagonizing my dog while the dog was caged.

        I’ll wait till I can speak with a lawyer before I decide who I talk to next, I don’t want the camp to think I’m antagonizing them, or something like that.

        Thanks so much for the validation.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Antagonizing a caged animal? REALLY? This is not a person who should be around children. The way she treated you, the way she treated your dog, these are all clues. I hope you find someone who is keenly interested in how this person behaves.

          Meanwhile, I hope you do not become too defeated by this. There are many good employers out there that would be happy to have you and your little buddy. Hang in there.

  3. Anonymous Admin*

    What’s a good way to ask for a new title?

    I was hired into my nonprofit organization a little over a year ago as an Administrative Assistant. There are other admins in other branches of our org, and our job descriptions revolve mainly around filing, answering the phones, doing some light accounts payable stuff, and doing logistical planning for small events. This is what other admins in our organization actually do.

    However, for the past nine months, I’ve increasingly been spending my time doing assessment activities–our organization has detected a real need to do more evaluation of our programs, and because of my academic background, I’ve been tasked with most of this work. I’ve compiled analyses of previous programs, interviewed our constituents regarding our impact on them, facilitated focus groups, and helped design assessment processes for future programs. Some of my reports have been featured in our publications as well. I spend about 60% of my time doing this type of work; some days I do only these tasks.

    I’m thrilled that I get to do this stuff–it’s a dream job, and I’m given a lot of autonomy and responsibility–but I’m concerned that it’s so badly misaligned with my title. I worry that future potential employers won’t understand how an Administrative Assistant could have been tasked with these duties, but more importantly, I’m worried about the perception our constituents might have. When I contact potential interviewees, for example, I’ve gotten strange responses asking if I’m contacting them on behalf of the person who will be doing the interview (thinking, I’m sure, that they wouldn’t send a secretary to conduct a case study). Likewise, when senior staff members are introducing me to focus groups, they struggle to describe my role, since we usually use job titles in these types of introductions. (“This is Anon, and she is our Admin…I mean, uh…she’s here representing Our Org today” is usually the type of spiel they give for me.)

    How can I talk about this with our leadership without seeming vain? I don’t just want a better title for the sake of having it–I think there is an actual need to provide better optics in terms of the authority I command with people outside our organization. Any tips?

    1. Meghan*

      I accomplished this in almost the exact same situation (nonprofit, hired to be an administrative assistant, duties were not anything like the other administrative assistants) by being really abundantly clear with my supervisor and my supervisor’s supervisor in regards to how my title was making it more difficult for me to do what my actual job turned out to be, especially in regards to our constituents. I prepared examples (e-mails, call reports, any praise or compliments that I had received in writing from constituents) and presented them to my supervisor at my review. It took another 6-8 months to get the title change, but when it came, it was basically a promotion. Good luck to you.

      1. Koko*

        This is spot on. At a previous job I helped a colleague get a new title because, although he was a Comms Director, we were a small shop and he had increasingly begun guiding our legislative advocacy strategy and meeting with important funders because he knew our strategy well enough to answer detailed questions about it. But a Comms Director sounds like someone who promotes the company’s public agenda – and a funder wants to talk to someone actually setting the agenda and doing the work, not someone in charge of making our accomplishments sound good in the press.

        I was the person in charge of setting up meetings with potential funders and was having a hard time getting them to accept meetings with him, so after consulting with him I went to our ED on his behalf/with his support to suggest his title be changed to Campaign Strategy Director. There was a clear business case for the change, boss agreed, and my instincts were right – I got way more interest from funders in meeting with him post-title-change.

    2. Meg Murry*

      If you can’t get an official title change, can you get a second title related to the project. For instance, could you ask if you could call yourself “Assessment Coordinator for the XYZ Project” or similar? So your title is still “Adminstrative Assistant” but you can say “I’m Jane at Teapots R US, and I’m the Assessment Coordinator for the XYZ Project” or “I’m Jane at Teapots R US, and I’m responsible for coordinating [or conducting?] the assessments for the XYZ Project” if you think the first example is overstepping.

      In my industry isn’t pretty common to have an official title that is more of a payscale catergorization than a true statement of what you actually do, and then specific roles for individual projects – so I might be the Project Manager for 3 projects, and then I’m assisting on 4 other projects, I’m the Lead on the Safety Team, etc. I’ve found that when I just introduce myself as a Teapot Researcher to clients, people just smile and nod, but if I say either “I’m the Project Manager for [your project].” or “I’m assisting Jane with your Teapot Spout Analysis project” that seems to work better to give them some context as to why they care that I’m talking to them.

    3. LotusEclair1984*

      “Given my duties of X, Y, Z, I think the title of _ Coordinator more accurately describes my role.”

    4. Mimmy*

      I’m starting to wonder if “administrative assistant’ is a catchall title or, at the very least, a payroll categorization (as someone already suggested). It’s more palatable than “secretary” but I think most still don’t associate the title with anything other than office management or other clerical functions.

      Sounds like you’re not the only one there that’s unsure of how to describe your role. I wonder if it’s worth talking to them, or least your supervisor, and try to get on the same page when introducing you in focus groups or to other constituents. I’m very interested in the type of work you’ve been doing, and I certainly wouldn’t want to be referred to as the “administrative assistant”, lol.

      1. Anonymous Admin*

        It can be a very awkward thing. And it’s even trickier when different people in your own organization understand your role in very divergent ways. It’s not uncommon that Joe from Accounting will come up to me and say, “Hey, I noticed the dishwasher needs emptying,” and I have to say, “Yes, I will take care of that, as soon as I finish developing this survey instrument for our developmental assessment.”

        But I don’t mind doing both types of tasks if that’s what it takes to get to do the fun stuff! I just want a title that better encompasses my non-dishwashing tasks.

    5. Jadelyn*

      Solidarity to you – I’m in almost exactly the same place. I was hired as an HR Assistant for a nonprofit, originally to do data entry and filing, but my computer skills and analytical skills quickly got me placed on several projects working directly for VPs and SVPs of the org. I’ve literally been the one to create and/or develop 99% of the HR-related analytics and metrics they’re now using – they had NONE of that before I was here – and since the start of this year, I’ve been tapped to support the official HR Systems Specialist with our HRIS implementation. I am now the person who represents my half of the (bicoastal, with the two halves semi-independent of each other) organization on calls and meetings with the HRIS vendor and am part of the decision-making on configuration questions, I provide end-user support for our employees and troubleshooting for other members of my team, I am basically an associate sysadmin…but my title is still HR Assistant. In fact I’ve actually gotten so busy with the project-, analysis- and HRIS-related side of what I do that we’re bringing in a second HR Assistant to pick up some of my bigger admin-related stuff like recruiting coordinator duties and filing and stuff, because our VP is getting cranky about having to share my time with regular admin tasks and wants me to work directly with him 90% of the time.

      And while I’d love a raise to go with it (I’m underpaid even for an actual HR Assistant), what I want most of all is the title change to acknowledge what I’m actually doing for the organization.

      To that end, I’ve gone and found a variety of job descriptions for similar HR positions like HRIS Specialist, HR Systems Associate, etc. and gone through them, highlighting all the responsibilities that I’m currently doing, then tallied up the “congruence” score of each one (and compared that to how much of my original JD I’m still doing), and I’m going to present that to the VP and my manager at my quarterly review in a few weeks as substantiation for my requesting a title change.

      So all of that is to say, I feel your pain, I’d recommend looking at the descriptions of responsibilities for job titles closer to what you’re doing and what you want to be titled and use that to support your request…and I wish you the best of luck!

      1. Anonymous Admin*

        I have casually hunted around at other job titles so I could suggest some alternatives when this conversation comes up with my supervisor…I’d never thought of doing a congruence score tally! I love the rigor of that idea.

        Between something like that and Meghan’s suggestion about collecting emails/call records demonstrating that this title discrepancy could be an issue, I might have a solid argument on my hands.

        1. Meghan*

          There is absolutely nothing wrong with making your case. It can feel awkward, but it is very possible that they are unsure of what you actually want. Go in with plenty of documentation, and remain confident in your request. I wish you the best of luck.

        2. Koko*

          This can also vary a lot depending on how rigid and bureaucratic your company is, but a lot of managers would jump at the chance to grant this request from a top performer, assuming the title requested is a reasonable one. It’s rare that managers can provide a benefit without costing the company anything, but a title change is (usually, assuming there aren’t bureaucratic rules that saw otherwise) completely free.

    6. CM*

      I like the suggestions here and think you have a strong argument for a title change. However, in the event that you don’t get the title change or it takes a long time, would it be possible to describe your role instead of using your title? Like signing emails as “Anon Admin, Teapot Distribution Program” instead of “Administrative Assistant.” Or you could contact people and say, “I’m with Our Org and am responsible for assessment of our Teapot Distribution Program,” without mentioning your title. You could ask colleagues to do that as well.

    7. Bigglesworth*

      I’m in a similar boat, except I already made my petition. I work in higher ed and although my title is “Admin Assistant for Student Services”, I don’t really do much of the admin stuff anymore. I’ve picked up a lot of the basic advising tasks, am part of a few committees that change school policies, and several other non-admin job duties. I searched other schools and found out that my role was most similar to a junior advisor. I printed off several of these job descriptions to bring to my annual review. One of the issues I mentioned is that my fellow staff and the faculty keep coming to me to do party planning and other admin duties, which are all duties that my predecessor took with her when she switched roles. Because I’m an Admin, people have difficulty understanding that my actual duties are not typical for our org. It felt a little awkward petitioning for a new title and raise, but I’m glad I did it.

      I will say that in my company a raise/title change is a long and convoluted process and is hopefully very different from yours. It’s basically made so that once you find out what the process is, you’ll decide it’s too much work and let the petition drop. (Yeah, it’s not a good company to work for.) I was told that we’re in the middle of a hiring freeze and I would need to come back in October to repetition. I first petitioned in March. It would probably take another six months after that to get it approved and put into place. Needless to say, I’m looking for a new job elsewhere.

      I wish you the best and hope you have better luck!

  4. Starting a new job*

    I wrote a little about this last week, but it was pretty late, so I’m trying again.

    I’m starting a new job that I feel is a stretch for me. After 3 interviews and rigorous background checks, they offered it to me but I still feel I somehow don’t deserve it and they’ll figure out that I’m not worth what they’ll be paying me.

    Anyone have encouraging stories about starting a job they weren’t 100% qualified for? (I’m probably 80-90% there, but there are a couple things from the job description that I haven’t done – of which they are aware).

    1. Anon Accountant*

      Yes. I felt like an imposter and was so nervous. I watched others closely, wirjed to gain understanding of the work, asked for clarification on difficult items after I’d tried to resolve it myself, and would research difficult concepts in my own time.

    2. Kyrielle*

      You can absolutely do it. There will be a learning curve, and they expect that, since they know about it! Going for a job where you have most of it and can pick up the rest is a bit unnerving, but it’s also totally normal and will work.

      My first job out of college wanted 3+ years of experience; I hadn’t even had an internship. They wanted a particular software language and OS experience…I had the first, but not the second. And I knew nothing about the group of people they were writing software for. I got the job. I rocked the job; I learned a lot, I learned fast.

      My current job was again a stretch (ironically, back to using the software language and OS I learned in college, although there have been changes in the intervening years!), including not knowing much about the gruop of people I’m now writing software for. They seem pretty happy with me. One thing I did for my own peace of mind, and I’m so glad I did, is I asked the senior technical guy what he thought a typical learning curve entering this role from where I did might be…he told me it could take a year to come up to speed! So when I felt like I was still at sea at 3 months, I took a deep breath and reminded myself they _expected_ a year’s learning curve. Sometimes it’s nice to know the time frame they think is normal to learn X, because odds are, they’ve calibrated it on watching other people learn X before. They have a much better idea what you don’t know (and how long it takes before opportunities to provide exposure to all of it come up) than you will.

      Being able to learn is more important than knowing, in almost every case (and the ones where that isn’t true, the people hiring *hire for that knowledge* – if you don’t trust your ability, trust the folks that hired you, knowing what you’d need to learn).

      1. Calliope~*

        After an hour phone interview for the position I’m in now, I flat out told my now supervisor that no, I was not qualified for the position after all, and no, I did not think I should come in for an interview. She said Calliope, I just spent an hour talking to you and I can tell you that you are indeed qualified and I want to talk with you further.

        I agreed to the actual interview still believing I’d be in way over my head but figured I could use the practice so I went. It was a six person panel and I’m told that after weeks of interviewing others, once I interviewed it was a unanimous choice and I *still* didn’t believe this would work. The pay is pretty meh, but the benefits are super and jobs are scarce where I live so I agreed to give it a go, knowing that I’m not signing my life away if it wasn’t a good fit and I HATED the job I was in at the time with a passion so it couldn’t be worse.

        Fast forward 9 months later, and I had the highest success rate in the state for those in my role! (And we have concrete, data driven performance measures that we’re required by both the federal and state govts!)

        They’re currently changing the way some things are done and I’m in the running with a couple others for the senior position and I’ve worked her just shy of three years now :)

        Hope my success story helps!

        1. Calliope~*

          oops.. that was supposed to be to “Starting a New Job” not “Kyrielle”… Sorry!

    3. Hoppy*

      Take it but be careful.

      I was in the same pot. Got hired as a staff accountant with some bookkeeping experience that felt inadequate for the job desc. I felt like an idiot when I first started but they saw something in me. I would say I was 75% qualified.

      It was tough at first, they’d forget I had zero exp with X, Y, Z but plopped it on my desk with no guidance. I wanted to cry somedays. But I started researching their programs and the few things I did not know… both at work and home. I started getting it and asked really stupid questions.

      Just ask for help – go to your supervisor and ask “what can I do to learn about these things I haven’t done” and they may give you tips/resources to get up to speed.

    4. Megs*

      I’m pretty sure I’ve never felt 100% qualified for a job – I just try and view it as having room to grow and develop, and try and remember that they hired ME – I almost certainly didn’t trick them and they’re not going to change their mind any minute now (why yes, I do get the impostor syndrome from time to time). I hate hate hate the first few weeks at a job, but it always gets better after that. I bet you’ll get there too!

    5. Jubilance*

      I’ve been there. In the moment you’re going to feel like you’re drowning and that you have to work so hard to keep your head above water. You’ll feel like a failure but trust me, you’ll be doing a great job. Be gentle with yourself and give yourself credit for your accomplishments, no matter how small. Don’t hesitate to ask for help and also resources/training materials/courses you can take/etc to get you training in the areas that you don’t know. Have regular communication and feedback with your leader to understand how you’re doing and their expectations.

      You can do this!

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Agreed with all of this, especially the part about not hesitating to ask for help. I still regularly ask my supervisor and manager for help, as well as other team members, and everyone thinks I’m doing a great job.

    6. KathyGeiss*

      An internal position came available 2 years before I was probably ready for it. But I applied anyway because they don’t become available that often. It was nerve wracking but I was honest about my short comings with my manager and we worked through it. The biggest factor in my success was relying on the rest of the team. I work with great people and they were all quite supportive of the move and helped me improve as I went.

    7. AliceW*

      I’ve always only applied for jobs way above my “pay grade” knowing I could do the job and figuring I would put in a lot of extra time to get up to speed. It’s just a matter of confidence and knowing what you are capable of. “Fake it till you make it” has always been my motto. It has always worked for me. Project confidence and others will believe in you. Good luck.

    8. Laura*

      Don’t stress! When I was hired on to my current job, I felt “qualified” for about 70% of it, and honestly wasn’t that knowledgeable about the stuff I DID know (since I joined a very different organization than the ones I’d previously been at).

      No employer expects you to hit the ground running on Day 1 and feel totally comfortable with everything. It takes time… just let it happen! I’m still reminding myself of this over four months after starting here.

    9. anonderella*

      So, this may or may not be ok to do (it feels… stalker-y, even if it isn’t), and it may or may not be useful info for anyone else :

      When I started at my current job six months ago, I was told everything would be changing; and it’s true, they’ve changed so much about my role and responsibilities, no one except me actually knows what all I’m responsible for – not even my boss, because my role is just too widely-encompassing (and.. it keeps evolving every day.). As part of my receptionist role (also is first office job) I have had to organize a lot of older info, like company contacts, etc. Once I got a hold of a few old company directories, I googled/Linkd-in-ed a few of the people who have held my role over the past decade and a half (it wasn’t that hard, hardly anyone leaves this particular mid-western state and I don’t know why) and looked at what they have done since then, what they had going on before that role if that info was available, and just generally compared my professional progress and goals with their accomplishments. It wasn’t to map out an exact path for myself, just to get some additional info on what, if anything, I might be currently missing that would help me succeed in my role here.

      It actually made me feel a lot better, and gave some concrete weight to what was otherwise a mire, of confusing past requirements and present and future expectations of my role. Even if I don’t know how long they lasted at my role, or if they did well or were even fired, it gives me an idea of what’s out there, when previously I just felt lost.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      80-90%? You’re fine.

      If you only took jobs that you were 100% qualified for, then you would just do the same thing all the time. Think about it. You’d never take any job that was the least bit different because then you would be less than 100% qualified.

      Trust others to know how to do their jobs. Trust that the hiring people know what the background of a successful candidate looks like.

      I agree with what others have said here. And I would like to add, when we start feeling overwhelmed by a new job one good thing to do is increase our commitment to doing a good job. Fully commit. Decide to learn everything possible about the job. Decide to ask when you don’t know. Decide to take full responsibility for any mistakes you make annnd, here’s a kicker, decide to learn from the mistake in such a way that you never make the same mistake twice.

      I have two part time jobs. If I said what both jobs were I would be super-idenfying myself. So I have to skip that part. Both jobs were new fields to me. I can hobble along by using some of the things I have learned in life and previous jobs, but that only helps me from time to time. The way I got started with both jobs is I made a major commitment to myself to do a good job. I got extra rest because each day I jumped in full charge and came home pretty tired. Both my bosses are happy with me. It’s not because of what I know. It’s because of how I handle the stuff that I don’t know. There is always something different each day at the jobs. I make notes to myself and notes to my boss. Sometimes asking a good question is more important than knowing an answer. I ask good questions. I try things. And if the boss is having difficulty with something, I look for ways to make it easier.

      Use that worry to increase your determination to be a great employee.
      You’ll be fine. I can tell from here.

    11. NicoleK*

      At last job, I felt that I only met 70% of the requirements but Old Boss offered me the position. Months later she told me that she was glad she hired me.

  5. Interviewing Blind*

    Anyone with journalistic/publishing experience care to lend some insight?

    My question is — is it typical to share the draft of the interview article with the interview subject before it goes live? Is it typical to allow the interview subject to have some involvement (if so, how much?) in the editing process?

    I currently volunteer for an organization doing long-form interview articles with various individuals (mostly artists). Not sure if anyone is familiar, but they’re similar to the types of long-form interviews you’d see in literary magazines, The Believer, etc. Many times these are published Q&A style, but ours are actually edited into a long-form narrative structure, no questions, just continuous voice, if that makes a difference.

    I have zero experience with this, it’s a very small non-profit, and I don’t know that the people i report to have the capacity to give me a lot of guidance on this. The subject matter we’re interviewing about can often be very sensitive and personal, so I want to make sure my interview subjects are always 100% comfortable with what gets published. But I also want to adhere to standard norms around this type of work.

    So far, I did NOT share the original edit with 2 people, because I thought that’s what was typical, but DID share it with another person – because she asked. Her interview was extremely dense and vulnerable in some areas, so I wanted her to be comfortable. This became an extremely involved editing process with her where we went line by line and curated things — all before sending it to my actual editor at the organization.

    I have more interviews coming up and just want to know what is standard. As I said, these articles often deal with vulnerable subject matter, so ultimately I am totally fine doing whatever it takes to make sure people feel safe sharing — but just feel a little awkward not knowing the professional norms here.

    1. ThatGirl*

      As a former newspaper editor, no, we never allowed subjects to review drafts of stories. The most anyone quoted got was their quotes, in context, to confirm they were OK. And even then it was up to the reporter/editor to make the final call. In my opinion subjects should NEVER have editorial review; worst-case is a simple review with no say in the edits.

      That said, your organization should be the one setting their own standards. It does not sound like hard news and there may be some leeway? So perhaps those who work for more literary publications can offer different insight.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      For hard journalism, no, it’s not common practice to preview the piece. For blog writing or writing for company-owned properties, it’s a common courtesy/potentially mandatory depending on the subject.

    3. ZSD*

      I work at a nonprofit. On the rare occasion we do interviews, we do let the interviewees look at pieces before they go out so that they can approve their quotes. I would think this would be common as long as you and the interviewees are “on the same side,” trying to influence public opinion/policy in the same way. If it were some sort of expose’ or ride-along type piece, I would think you wouldn’t give them the chance to review it.
      But I’m interested to hear what others say.

      1. Ama*

        Yes, this is how we handle things at my org. Most of the people we interview are handling really complicated scientific concepts (it’s usually research we’ve funded), and since the publications team is trying to translate those concepts to a lay audience, having the researchers check what we’ve written is really the best way to make sure we haven’t oversimplified or misinterpreted a study. However, we also don’t present the pieces as anything remotely resembling real, objective journalism style pieces. These are publicity pieces promoting our organization’s work and that is very clear throughout our publications.

        I have occasionally encountered a subject who wants to get very granular about editing, but the level of involvement you describe does sound a bit unusual. Mostly what we get is corrections on terminology.

    4. HappyWriter*

      In my experience, it’s *not* the norm to share an article with an interview subject before it’s published. I’m a freelance writer. In a few cases, I’ve had a client ask me to let an interview subject read the article before we publish, but that’s the exception, not the norm. And if I interview someone other than a client and they specifically ask to see the article before it’s published, I only offer them their own isolated quotes – not the whole article.

      Like you said, letting a subject review the article adds an extra layer of editing and can change the perspective from which the article is written. It’s not really staying true to the idea of journalistic objectivity.

      1. Catty hack*

        Agreed. It’s not the norm to share articles with the interviewee before they go out. Partly because it adds an extra layer of editing, mainly because it goes against the grain of journalistic objectively (but, hey, if they want a perfectly manicured promo piece, I’m more than happy to give them the number for the sales team! :P )

        That being said, I have had pieces which have gone back to the source before it goes in the publication. Usually it’s quotes in context and, to be honest, it’s usually for my own fact checking more than anything else. But I’ve also been at publications where entire pieces have gone back to sources for sign out on occasion so it really depends on where you are, what sort of piece it is. etc.

        I’d say a good rule is to make sure people know that, when you send things back, it’s for fact-checking purposes only and they don’t have any say over style. I’d also make it clear that you have final say, and point out that it could change anyway once it gets to the sub-editor and/or the editor. I’d also put a deadline down on things and make it clear to them that, regardless of whether or not they feel like they’re done tweaking with it by X date, it’s going to the editor then!

        (And, if it makes you feel better, I’ve once had somebody ask if they could change an entire page layout because they thought their colour scheme and picture ideas would better suit their interview…which lasted about two-thirds of a column in length. No points for guessing what the answer was.)

    5. Lily in NYC*

      I used to work for two very well-known national weekly magazines. We would never, ever share an article with a subject before publication nor would we allow conditions on our interviews. But I can see how it would be different for your situation – so I think you have flexibility to do what you think is best.

    6. Z*

      What That Girl and Bend & Snap said. As a recovering newspaper employee, subjects were not allowed review.

      1. Recent Grad*

        Interviewing Blind, it sounds like you’re working on some sort of newsletter or marketing piece? My day job involves writing for a trade magazine, but I also freelance straight-up journalism for a local news site. For the former, we incur mighty wrath if we DON’T allow the source to review their quotes and any data points, but I never offer a full read out, and I make it clear that changes will only be allowed for inaccuracies, not differences of opinion in word choice. For the latter, I would never allow someone to review/change a quote. I make it clear when I reach out that it’s on the record, and I usually record interviews (with permission!) as a CYA measure.

        If it’s a running Q&A and not straight quotes that’s a little tougher because you don’t want to distort the source’s voice, and people screw up basic facts when they’re on the spot more than you’d think. A happy medium would be to pull out any facts into bullet points and email them to the source.
        For example: You started working at teapots ltd. in 1994, correct?

    7. NarrowDoorways*

      Medical publisher. Nooope, we don’t ever allow sources to review the whole story, as we try to present from a non-biased place. One a source sees other source material, they almost always throw a fit.

      We do also individual quotes to be reviewed–if asked–for accuracy, if the topic is a complex one.

    8. Big City Editor*

      No, in journalism, you do not share a draft with the subject before the story is published. What I have done in the past is let someone review their quotes IF the subject matter is very complex or I need to fact check something. Organizations not in the news business operate differently and often allow the interview subject to review (or even edit) the draft.

    9. Kara*

      Not a ton of experience in the industry aside from J-School a few years ago! We were told no, you don’t share the entire story with a source. We were in charge of fact-checking each other’s stories, and that included calling or emailing them and getting confirmation on all facts or quotes within the article. (i.e. “Age: 24”; You said: “I love running!”) Then they either confirm or deny it. When I was asked to see the entire article, I said that wasn’t our process, but I would be happy to make sure they saw a link or got a copy once it was finished. No one, in my experience, got upset at that.

      However, you’re at an organization, not a newspaper or magazine, so things won’t go by the “rules” and may very well have their own process set up. Ask around to get that so you’ll know for the next time.

    10. Christopher Tracy*

      My question is — is it typical to share the draft of the interview article with the interview subject before it goes live? Is it typical to allow the interview subject to have some involvement (if so, how much?) in the editing process?

      No – not typical at all.

    11. How Did You Know?*

      I’ve been a freelance writer for almost 10 years for a very niche publication that focuses on Olympic sports. As a courtesy, I always let the people I interview review the article before it goes to print. I do this to make sure that I’ve quoted them correctly and in context. It’s not a hard news publication, which as others have noted have different standards.

      1. BarManager*

        As someone interviewed semi-regularly for publications, I wish more would let me review. I am misquoted (or my new favorite, take a few quotations and cobbling them together) and it’s almost always because the writer doesn’t have a a great understanding of the complex nature of the subject. I can be a fast talker, so I’ve been working on dumbing down/speaking slower so as to be less often mis-quoted. It’s a pretty big bummer.

        This goes for both lifestyle/blog type writing as well as things like the SF Chronicle and SJ Mercury :(

        1. Bibliovore*

          This. As a noted expert in the field, I have been weirdly misquoted. I appreciate when a journalist calls back or emails the quotes to me. They never send the whole article and I am okay with that. Just read AnonyMouse…yes they are usually just like that– Confirming… In position at TeaPot University for 15 years? Your title is Curator of TeaPot Art History?

    12. AnonyMouse*

      I work at a national media organization. We do not share drafts for review, and we rarely send back quotes for review. However, I do sometimes send over a list of facts in bullet point format.

      For example,”Can you please check the following:
      * Your name is Jane Doe, your title is teapot coordinator
      * Your organization makes custom teapots, they cost $X to $Y.
      * The process of making a teapot is as follows: first, you do this, then you do that, finally you do this.”

      I use the bullet points to emphasize that I’m just checking facts and this isn’t the language in the story.

      In my line of work, I don’t think that everyone needs to be 100% comfortable with what’s published (this may not be the case for your nonprofit). I’ve written stories reporting on companies doing shady things, or broken news on an announcement ahead of the official company press release. In those cases my subjects aren’t going to be 100% comfortable… BUT. it’s really important to me that they never be surprised. If I’m going to write something about you that is negative, you’ll know before hand, you’ll have time to respond and give your perspective.
      So I think it’s important that your subjects know roughly what the format and gist of your narrative, and that you are upfront with them about any parts that aren’t positive — that doesn’t mean change it if they don’t like it, it means give them a chance to have a response, and be fair and unbiased.

    13. Macedon*

      As everyone’s said: don’t give them drafts. Even if you’re not in hard news, imho, unless you’re writing an advertorial. In that case, disclaim it as such and God speed.

      What you can do for an especially good contact is read back their quotes to them and perhaps allow cosmetic edits (that do not change the meaning of the quote). It is exclusively up to you to implement any changes, however. It’s also at your discretion to honour or decline any requests to exclude any quotes or information that was supplied to you on the record.

  6. Sunflower*

    I have my annual review coming up on Monday. I’ve been here about 10 months and am wondering how to get the most out of it.

    If you were my manager, what would you want your employee to ask or get out of this?

    I’ve mentioned before that I’m not yet where I was hoping to be here and I really want to take on more responsibilty but I can’t tell if my lack of training is based off us being super busy or if boss doesn’t trust me. It’s difficult because the person in my job before took on much more responsbiliyt than me because she was without a manaher for quite a while so I’m not sure how close to her level I should be expecitng to work at. So I am wondering how and how much of this to bring up. My boss is very open about me coming to her with concerns so I want to make sure I’m getting hte most out of this!

    1. Rabbit*

      If you’re boss is open to hearing concerns, why not bring up what you said? You want to take on more responsibility [that’s great!] and you want to know from your manager how you’re doing. As you have the conversation, you could bring in that you know that the previous person took on more tasks, and figure out what makes sense. But don’t phrase the conversation as a total comparison as the former employee — you want to focus on how you’re doing and how you can improve.

  7. Open Thread Anon*

    Yesterday was particularly bad. In addition to humiliation related to what I was wearing at work thanks to bad information and people ignoring company-wide emails saying to dress down and issues going on with my parents, my manager continues to use a passive aggressive style and then turn around and act friendly. Maybe their style is unintentional, but they’re up too many levels for me to try to address it. This has been ongoing and it’s severely impacting my confidence in my work, especially as this attitude is consistent in others in my department. I’m really worried about the impact it will have on me when I’m finally able to move into another job. I can own to making mistakes but as the most junior person, I’d expect an approach that involves more understanding and teaching than slanted comments. There’s also just a general lack of respect for me that I can’t articulate well or describe when it’s not happening, but it’s there and so exhausting to deal with. I don’t know. Happy to hear advice if it comes, but mostly just venting/lamenting.

    1. Adam V*

      I’m sorry to hear that. No real advice other than “keep putting on a brave face”, unfortunately. :(

    2. Beancounter in Texas*

      Ditto. It’s not a good fit. When you do move onto another job, if you can afford it (and I’d be saving like a mad man to afford it), take a couple of weeks off in-between to decompress. I left a toxic boss with the same attitude almost two months ago, and it took me five weeks to really own myself again, and regain my self-esteem.

      1. Open Thread Anon*

        That’s my plan. I have a significant amount of savings and could theoretically quit on the spot but I’m trying to avoid a gap on my resume. At the very least, I’m aiming for a week, but two would be nice. Thanks for the encouragement!

    3. Jadelyn*

      Re the not being able to articulate or describe outside of the moments it’s happening, I really recommend keeping a written journal of some kind. I use my tumblr blog for this and tag any work-related venting as “work fuckery” – that way, later on I can go back through and see if there are patterns, remind myself that I’m not crazy or being oversensitive about things, etc. You might be more comfortable with just a Google doc you access from your phone or something, or an email-to-self sent from your phone to your personal email address. If you don’t have a smartphone or have access to it during work, keep written notes tucked in a pocket or purse and transcribe those into electronic format later on. Try to include quotes verbatim or as close as possible, context of what was happening at the time, etc. since you probably won’t remember details like that later on.

      But this all comes with a caveat – whatever you do, DO NOT KEEP THIS RECORD ON ANY WORK PROPERTY. Not on a notebook you keep at your desk, not on your work computer, not via your work email. You do NOT want to deal with the fallout of someone finding out you’re keeping that kind of record.

      1. Open Thread Anon*

        Great idea! I hadn’t thought of that before. Since I was little I’ve been told I’m too sensitive, so I worry that that might actually be true…but on the flip side, I’ve been in positions before where I felt good about what I was doing even when I made mistakes. So maybe not. I’m just really confused and hurt. =\ It’s tough when a lot of it comes through in written (or spoken, sometimes) tone.

        1. Jadelyn*

          It’s funny, I started doing it because I was worried that I was oversensitive to things, actually. My father was abusive in a couple of different ways, and as a result I know my perception of some things is a bit skewed from the norm…one of the big things being I have an AWFUL time dealing with my own mistakes in a healthy way or accepting critical feedback, so when something goes wrong I have a hard time figuring out if someone is being a jerk or if I’m just taking legit criticism too personally. So I started posting (and tagging) to ask my friends and followers for feedback – like, “this thing happened, am I crazy to be upset or is this legit not okay?” – and then discovered how useful it was for going back later to give yourself a sense of perspective about things.

          (As it turned out, with my supervisor at the time, it absolutely was not me that was the problem there. She’s on her way out now due to being caught out in a string of lies and unprofessional use of her position to manipulate situations in her favor, so I’m feeling pretty vindicated, lol. Thankfully my current manager is FANTASTIC – and very understanding of my tendency to take things personally, to the point where she proactively helps me frame feedback and reassures me when I’m starting to worry, so I’m finally actually developing the ability to cope with mistakes and not panicking when people find out I’m human.)

          1. GreenTeaPot*

            Jadelyn, I was in your situation through most of my career. I’m so glad you are so savvy and self aware…

        2. Not So NewReader*

          So let’s go with this, let’s say we know for a fact that you are too sensitive. (I sincerely doubt it, but let’s go with it, just to see where it can lead.) Journalling is a great way to look for patterns in behaviors, yours and theirs.
          Usually the truth is in the middle. They are jerks sometimes and sometimes we are just over sensitive- that is probably reality.
          One thing I started doing years ago, is to watch what I say and see if I change my reaction then does the situation change because of my change? I found that many times it does. So part of your journalling you could do a few sentences on “Would I do anything differently the next time X happens? What did I like about how I handled it? Was I proud of my professional self?” Doing the like part is important, because that is YOU. Keep the parts of your reaction that reflect the best professional you. Make a new plan for the parts of your reaction that you do not think is professional.

          Because this can be a time consuming and emotionally exhausting process, I suggest only focusing on one incident per day. Take the one that stung the most or caught you off guard the most. Expect your daily choices to vary – that is okay- you are sorting through a lot of stuff.

          It could emerge that you just work with a bunch of jerks who don’t even respect each other, it’s not you rather it’s a way of life for them. I think what will happen is that by writing out incidents, you will just decide that it’s too much to worry about incidents A, B and C. You’ll decide that you need to just focus on E and F when those incidents occur. And you’ll make other types of decisions about your work place also.

          Walking is also good for clearing the cobwebs out of the brain and gaining mental clarity on stuff.

      2. Lapsed Academic*

        I also recommend working with memory protocols. I had a toxic boss in my last job (wonderful colleagues except for the one the boss was also sleeping with) and memory protocols were what kept me from losing my mind, because it gave me the option to get a reality check from the outside if I needed.

        (And I also recommend taking a break between jobs if you can. I took a planned break that turned into a very long unplanned break, but it took a long time until I was again in a position that bordered “normal”.)

  8. bassclefchick*

    Well, it’s my first week of unemployment since my temp assignment ended. Feeling a bit useless right now. I had two interviews this week for other temp assignments that both went really well. I did my “job” of applying for 4 jobs this week per my unemployment benefits rules. So, I guess I’ll just have to keep taking a step at a time and eventually it will work itself out.

    Thanks, everyone for all the encouragement! It really is appreciated!

    1. Christopher Tracy*

      You’re not useless, so please try not to feel that way. Just keep doing what you’re doing, practice some self-care, and try to stay positive. You’ll find something new soon.

    2. Dawn*

      Been there, done that, didn’t get the t-shirt… at least TWICE. ALL THE HUGS TO YOU!!! You are NOT useless- that I promise- and something else will come along. In between applying for jobs do make sure to take some time for yourself AND take some time to tackle projects that have been put off because you’ve been working (clean out the pantry maybe?) Then when New Job comes along you’ll feel refreshed and like you tackled some personal chores!

    3. bassclefchick*

      Thanks! My husband and I went to our local botanical garden (he works a split shift) so I could get out of the house. I’ve set my schedule to do the job hunting/applications in the beginning of the week so I have the end of the week to do things for myself.

    4. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Four jobs a week! Four!??

      There are not four new jobs a week in my field!

  9. Tuckerman*

    Just wanted to share something nice that happened at work. My coworker asked me to water her plants while she was on vacation and in exchange for the favor, she sent me a link to a travel podcast she thought I’d enjoy. Happy to water her plants, but her gesture was a nice touch.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      You are way better than I am at this! I tried to take care of my coworker’s plants when she was out for a month and I gave them too much water and killed them. She brought me back a beautiful pendant as a gift and I felt so guilty! But I redeemed myself last year by watching her cats and not killing them.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I killed my friend’s fish while she was in England.

        (Well, not really, they were terminally ill already. I wish she’d told me they had fish plague or whatever before she left–it would have saved me a lot of panic and dread and guilt!)

        1. Rat Racer*

          I feel terrible for laughing at these – because poor fish – but the concept of hospice care for terminally fish is making me LOL. Long, long time ago, my grandmother of blessed memory was in charge of watching my 2 sisters and me while my parents went to Europe. She also charged with watching the Kindergarten’s turtle, which was on loan to us for the first month of the summer. Turned out the turtle had shell cancer and had to be euthanized in a freezer. My grandmother, who thought it was totally inappropriate to keep a reptile as a pet, was devastated and never forgave my father for putting her in charge of a terminally ill turtle.

          1. Laura*

            Well, that’s the saddest turtle story I’ve ever read. Certainly didn’t expect it here on AAM! Poor thing.

            1. Rat Racer*

              I think that the turtle was probably old, and that euthanization was the kindest option for it. It was very sad at the time. 30 years later, I can’t help but laugh a little bit though at the absurdity of my very prim grandmother gingerly wrapping the turtle in a napkin to take it to the vet at my youngest sister’s insistence that he was sick and not acting like himself (which was apparently correct).

            1. Artemesia*

              Somewhat little known fact. Turtle shells are in fact the ribs of the turtle; they come from the rib genes and structures.

        2. Laura*

          I adopted a goldfish in college and it died a slow, probably-painful death due to some sort of fish plague. It was heartbreaking! Fish are more emotion-inducing than I thought.

  10. Folklorist*

    ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! Do something you’ve been putting off and come back here and let us know. Dooooo ittttt.

    I’m going to finish a tedious project that got dumped on me earlier this week so I can work on Fun Stuff come Monday!

    1. alice*

      You’re reading my mind! Yesterday I started cleaning out our ticket system (closing inactive ones basically and following up on old ones). Turns out we had an open ticket from 2013. 2013!

        1. alice*

          Sort of … we let it go and the customer forgot about it. It’s getting taken care of this week. I’m just glad the guy didn’t get too upset about us dropping the ball. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry about this one.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I’ve got a few open tickets from 2013. We did a huge push to fix all the possible accessibility issues, and the minor issues that would require a ton of effort to fix were left open as things to avoid/fix the next time we redesign the site from the ground up.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      But I don’t wanna! I’m feeling lazy and I have a sore throat and just want to sit on my butt and complain all day.

    5. CherryScary*

      Email response drafted to not-so-pleasant person. Just waiting on my supervisor to give it a once over.

    6. LizB*

      I’m going to get my case notes and paperwork 100% up to date today! I made myself a list of things that need to be updated. It’s a long list. But I’m going to get it done!

    8. Sarianna*

      Updated my last-few-months’ tasks list to reflect what has been done and what no longer needs to be done. Booyah!

    10. Busytrap*

      Love this! I used it as a kick in the rear to draft a presentation for a meeting next Thursday updating the PTB on the most boring-est topic ever project I got stuck leading because our CEO lost confidence in the guy who was supposed to be running it. I’ve been putting this off for almost four months. Now I can go into the weekend with it dunzo and off my mind instead of procrastinating on it until Wednesday night. :) Huzzah!

    12. overeducated*

      I just replied to an email I’d been putting off and updated a budget spreadsheet for maybe the last time. Still procrastinating on sending two more difficult emails though. I have to notify a couple of outside collaborators that I’m moving on, and I’m not sure they’ll be happy about the direction I’m taking because we’ll no longer be able to work together.

    13. BananaKarenina*

      Trying to “thaw” myself by applying for teaching positions for the fall. Resume is revamped, but I hate the cover letter process. On top of that, I am trying to figure out where I would want to relocate within my state, which complicates things. (I live in CA). Thanks for the kick in the butt!

    14. Calliope~*

      I’m going to sign off and go submit my timesheet/expense report; and I’ve finally decided that my paper for my class I’m taking is “good enough” and I will stop worrying about ‘tweaking’ it just a bit more. :)

    16. Shayland (ActualName)*

      I just went out to the creek with my dog and took a whole bunch of photos of her playing in the water and woods. Then I took her in for a bath and trimmed her nails. The bath I’d been putting off since we got back from camp.

      I love these posts every week. Even when I don’t comment I take their advice, and I try to remember to do it other days as well.

      1. Folklorist*

        I’m so glad they help! I stopped doing them EVERY week because 1) I would forget to post right at/near 11am, so they wouldn’t be high enough for lots of people to see, and 2) I think that putting them in more randomly is more of a jolt (so people don’t just scroll past going “yeah, yeah, yeah…”). Also, it started being a chore instead of a fun “all in this together!” thing!

    17. Ralph S. Mouse*

      You should have caught me on Tuesday:

      – Brought six months’ worth of recycling to new recycling center
      – Installed blinds on a metal door
      – Did a return without receipt I’ve been sitting on for almost three months
      – Caught up with the dishes (it was bad)
      – Bought a can of paint (needed to pick a color and get it mixed)
      – Sent a Strongly Worded Email I’d been dreading having to send
      – Bought a saw and decimated a bush that thought it was a tree

      …and some other crap I can’t recall. The errand-type stuff might not sound like much to most people, but I have really bad anxiety about anything that involves having to ask for help, ask for accommodations, visit a place where I don’t know the routine, or even doing things like standing in front of the saws trying to figure out which one I need. So it was a big deal for me. I figured I’d cram it all into one day as long as I was out.

    18. Silver Radicand*

      I ordered a sign, put together an after action report, and called a customer back! Now onto refunds.

    19. Elizabeth West*

      Not at work today, but I mailed a book I bought for my dad to him. He won’t get it until Monday, but that’s okay. I’l call him on Father’s Day and let him know it’s on the way.

  11. Emilia Bedelia*

    I accepted a random Linked In request a very long time ago from someone I don’t know- I think they’re a recruiter or something in my industry. They sent me a “happy Independence day” message last year. I ignored it.
    This week, I was updating my profile and decided to remove them as a connection as they don’t post anything interesting or helpful and their connections didn’t seem worthwhile either. A few minutes after, they message me saying “thank you for being unprofessional by NOT replying to my message sent on 7/5/2015”. (Does linked in tell people when they are removed? That’s annoying, if so! Or creepy, if not) So it looks like my instincts to remove them were right!

    Who does this?? Why??

    2. Kyrielle*

      Creeps? Fools? That’s so bizarre. Definitely just reinforcing your decision. Why on earth would a “happy Independence day” message need a reply? And if they were going to be hurt about it, why only when you removed them, almost a year later?

      Ugh.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      That kinda crap, plus having sales people track down my name and office number, led me to deactivate my LinkedIn profile. So much more trouble than it’s worth.

      1. IT_Guy*

        I’m really tired of the happy puppy/baby whatever posts that people keep posting and sharing on LinkedIn. I’ve made a it a policy of removing them as a connection if they do. Nobody has ever commented but if they do, I plan on replying “LinkedIn is a professional connection site and those posts belong on FaceBook”

        1. all aboard the anon train*

          That and a bunch of opinions on stuff in the news. I don’t want to hear your political opinions at work, so why would I want to read them on LinkedIn?

        2. MM*

          I have too many connections that I don’t know, who live to far away, and who don’t share anything I’m interested in. I’m job hunting and would like to curate my network to somethign that could actually be helpful but have been holding off worried about how it might seem. Might steal your line

    4. White Mage*

      I’m assuming that they might have gotten a notification that you updated your profile since at the time you were still linked, then by the time they went to check it you were removed.

      But yeah that is incredibly rude. Ridiculous.

      2. Stranger than fiction*

        I don’t remember if that was one of the types of notifications, but I turned all mine off in the settings a few years ago and it’s been awesome.

    5. anonderella*

      Send them an AAM link to the articles talking about not sending emails while angry…

    6. Megs*

      Pfff. I don’t reply to rando LinkedIn messages all the time. That person was being a butt.

    8. Audiophile*

      I regularly ignore messages from recruiters. I’ve never had one contact me that actually seemed like they read my profile.

      2. Rat Racer*

        Gah! me three! Happened to a friend’s husband and their whole house had to be fumigated.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Not “paid” business, but while I was staffing an event in Atlantic City recently, staffers found bedbugs in their hotel that the event had arranged for them.

      (I consider myself VERY lucky that I was not in that hotel!)

    3. Lillian McGee*

      We deal with housing related legal issues in my office so we regularly find live bedbugs crawling around in client interview areas. Some of our staff have brought bedbugs home after doing home visits with clients. So far we’ve avoided a full-on infestation in the office but I’d call it blind luck!

    4. Sunflower*

      I never have but know people who have. It’s not an indication that the hotel is dirty- it happens in nice, chain hotels.

      I travel a good amount and make none of the pre-cautions some people do like checking the bed or anything but if it makes you feel better. I do always make sure to put my luggage on a cart or rack – not the floor – since I think it’s harder to catch them living in the carpet.

      FWIW I know people who stayed in hotels during the time bed bugs were found and they never had an issue with them.

    5. LawCat*

      No, thankfully! But I would obsessively check all the corners of the bed where there are folds in the sheets, always used the luggage rack, and didn’t leave anything on the floor (not even shoes) because I was paranoid about it.

    6. March*

      Not on business trips, but I did have a run-in with them on vacation last month. They’re unfortunately not uncommon in a lot of hotels, since it’s so easy for them to spread if you’re not careful.

        1. March*

          I got lucky and managed to handle my stuff before anything went inside! Everything got bagged and washed in nice hot water, so the house was fine.

    7. zd*

      A commenter on a site once told a story about her husband bringing them home from a business trip. I didn’t think I’d ever be able to sleep in a hotel again. She said they got the advice to put your suitcase with all your stuff in the bathtub. But that was during that spike of incidents in NYC a few years back.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        There was! It was creepy. There was one movie theater in Manhattan I avoided because there was a report of bed bugs that seemed pretty stubborn and consistent. Ugh. Haven’t gone there since 2010!

    8. Laura*

      Not business, but I did see them once in a hotel in Vienna while studying abroad. Now I check EVERY hotel I go into.

      Some good precautions:
      1. Don’t put your suitcase on a hotel room’s carpet until you’ve thoroughly checked the beds for bed bugs
      2. Don’t put your suitcase on the bed, ever. Use luggage racks.
      3. Upon returning home, don’t set your suitcase on carpet. Remove all clothing and put it in trash bags until you can wash everything in HOT water

      1. Chaordic One*

        I’ve always heard that you should put your suitcase in the bathtub or shower.

        If you have a lot of luggage, maybe put something on the linoleum floor of the bathroom or kitchen.

    9. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      No, but if you do I would call your doctor and ask them what you should do. They have strict protocols for bed bug control and can probably help you deal with the problem.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I don’t think a doctor would be much help, unless you had an unusually severe allergic reaction. Usually people just treat them as you wound any other bug bite, maybe put an analgesic cream continaing hydrocortizone, such as “Hydrocort” and perhaps bandaging or covering the bites. If you didn’t feel comfortable treating the bug bites yourself, you could go to an urgent care clinic and have a physician’s assistant, or even a nurse treat them.

        You might want to call one of those bed-bug sniffing dog services where they bring in a trained dog who can smell where any bedbugs might be hiding, and then an exterminator, because a competent one would have experience dealing with the problem and would know the kind of places where they like to hide.

    10. Fleur*

      Bedbugs are terrifying because they’re so difficult to get rid of! Our office has a lot of traveling consultants and we had an almost month long infestation (periodic reappearances) followed by two more months of monitoring before being declared free. No one could figure out who brought it in, but the day they were discovered, I went straight home and washed everything I could in hot water. Thankfully, beyond some psychosomatic itching, I did not bring any bedbugs home, but it’s absolutely awful. And of course, nobody complied with office requested to leave their suitcases in the hotel. This is just asking for that ordeal to repeat.

  13. Imogen*

    Does anyone get annoyed at the way job-hunting is portrayed on television shows? Not o much the nature of the jobs themselves, but the way in which some characters get jobs.

    The one that particularly irks me is when the character’s qualifications/skills don’t meet the job description/requirements /at all/, but they get the role based on an impassioned speech along the lines ‘just give me a chance and I’ll prove myself!”. Then the person hiring would be so impressed with their passion that they’d offer them the role on the spot (or later that day if the process was /really/ drawn out)!

    Obviously it’s necessary for the narrative (and usually they would be right in that they’d good at what they said they’d be good at), but would that ever be good enough to convince someone to give you a job without the right background or experience?

    (Also, I sometimes wonder if younger people who are new to the job market would ever get the impression that these things were much easier than in real life.)

    Okay I probably shouldn’t think too much into these things and just enjoy the show, but oh if only the job-hunting process could be so simple!

    1. ZSD*

      I was bothered by the whole letter-of-recommendation ending of _Up in the Air_. Nobody just carries around letters of recommendation, and if they did, hiring managers probably wouldn’t give them much weight. But the guy interviewing Anna Kendrick says, “Well, this guy says I’d be lucky to have you,” and hires her.

    2. all aboard the anon train*

      Yeah. It especially annoys me if it’s for a hard to get into industry like book publishing or the movie industry. it evokes that whole “follow your dream” mentality, which I find ridiculous. And then I get annoyed that most of these actors are getting paid more than I’ll make in years for one episode. And then I have to tell myself to stop being annoyed and just enjoy the TV show.

      I do sometimes wonder if some people think workplaces are like what they see on TV. I had a coworker who said she’d love to work in an office like on Parks and Rec. And while Parks and Rec is one of my favorite shows, I’d go insane if I had to work someplace like that. I love Leslie Knope, but there’s no way I’d ever want to work for someone like her. Ron Swanson is my ideal boss. Leaves people alone, lets them get shit done, and doesn’t try to involve himself in their personal lives.

    3. Ralph S. Mouse*

      (Also, I sometimes wonder if younger people who are new to the job market would ever get the impression that these things were much easier than in real life.)

      Oh, it’s not just young people. When I graduated into the worst part of the recent recession, I swear my stepmother’s perspective on job hunting was 2/3 “only ever worked outside the home for pin money” and 1/3 “thinks everything on TV is a documentary.”

    4. City Worker*

      Or when they lose their job because of miscommunication and manage to get it back. If I were HR, I’d be pissed if I had to do all that termination paperwork and it was for naught!

    5. Joanna*

      The trope that irks me is when a young, new to New York (or other big city) character who appears to lack much relevant work experience quickly gets an interesting job that pays enough for a cool apartment in a nice part of one of the most expensive to live in cities in the world

      1. Snargulfuss*

        Ugh, yes 21 Dresses comes to mind immediately. I know that some personal/executive assistants are highly paid, but the likelihood of a 20-something living alone in a gorgeous Manhattan apartment on an assistant’s salary is so unrealistic.

      2. Afiendishthingy*

        I like how Kimmy Schmidt gets her sketchy as hell under the table nanny job. That felt real.

    6. Lily Evans*

      Yes! There’s an episode of Gilmore Girls where Rory wants a job at the newspaper where she used to intern and the boss tells her that there’s no open positions, but he’d give her a good reference. Instead of saying thanks and moving on, she goes to the paper office unannounced, sits in the lobby and refuses to leave, and sneaks into the boss’ office to leave her portfolio. And she gets the job! Because she has so much persistence/gumption! I have to fast-forward those scenes now because I get such second hand embarrassment! When I was younger, though, I thought that was a good model for how getting a job worked…

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Can you believe crap like that worked for a hot minute in the 80s? My college roommate’s brother handcuffed himself to a desk during an interview at Disney World (some sort of gimmick) and he actually got the job! I remember it seemed like the best job in the world to me at the time – his entire role was to entertain VIP corporate guests and take them out to dinner, golf, etc. Actually, it still does sound like a pretty awesome job.

        1. Lizketeer*

          There are some amazing roles within Disney, and that definitely sounds like one of them. Not quite the same, but there are VIP tour guides whose job it is to play in the parks with any family that will pay for it.

      2. bridget*

        AND, that job never ever comes up again! It appears to be ONLY so that Rory can work through her insecurity after Mitchum Huntzberger tells her she doesn’t “have what it takes” to be a reporter. Apparently, she proves to herself that she “has what it takes” because that seems to equal trespassing and harassing people.

        Realistic ending to that scenario: “No, still no jobs, and now you don’t have a good reference either, and I’m calling security to remove you from the building.”

        1. DevAssist*

          Maybe it’s my love for Gilmore Girls, but that didn’t bug me with Rory. I thought it was super funny.

          Overall though, I am very bothered by that trend in books and movies of making even “struggling” look easy. You can also watch shows like GIRLS, and the character of Hannah can’t find a job, gets fired from the low-wage jobs she does get, and still manages to live in a decent apartment in New York. Even with a roommate, that isn’t realistic.

          I am a 20-something and those kinds of things drive me crazy because I think they translate into real expectations of people. Me? I still live at home. I’m working full-time but I can’t afford to live on my own, and I don’t want to be made to feel guilty about it.

          1. anonderella*

            Yeah I will chime in here. I am really not happy about the way Hannah’s character treats her job (I mean, I love it bc she’s saying stuff I want to say but can’t; but I hate it bc no, you can’t actually show your boss your vagina to make a point and walk out the room like you just ended a badass scene.). I know that’s her character, is to be like that, but gargargargargarg < that's an onomatopoeia for exasperation.
            To me, those are the best parts of the show, is when Hannah is told No, you can't have that just because you want it/think you want it, and then she has to go find another way – *that's* how life works.

    7. Jennifer*

      I hate how people get offered dream jobs out of the blue. Also, stuff like “I got a job in Germany and I have to leave in three days.” WTF? It’s taking me four months just to move out of my apartment into another one in the same town, who the hell can leave the country in three days?

      1. Chaordic One*

        I get a kick out of the “Old Economy Steven” meme that has been around for quite a while now.

        http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/old-economy-steven

        Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who still have that old school mindset and who are so out-of-touch about how things have changed in both job searching, and also in the nature of work itself.

    8. Creag an Tuire*

      Yeah, crap like that is why we see so many letters saying “I looked up the hiring manager’s name in the phone book and sent them a framed photo of myself, why didn’t a get a job offer? :( “

  14. Meg Murry*

    I overslept this morning and have the “meh”s today about getting anything done. Thinking about spedning the afternoon cleaning my office because at least then I’d have something to show for the day since I can’t seem to sit still and focus.

    Have to say I love my company though. There is a big sports even on Sunday night that is happening in our city and the bosses have said “I’ll assume anyone that doesn’t show up Monday morning is taking a half or full personal day, just send in a call, email or text at some point letting us know you’re not dead”. I’m not even into sports (at all really) but I’m considering going to a viewing party just to be part of the excitement.

    1. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

      That’s really cool and I appreciate your boss being realistic, lol!

    4. Oryx*

      I live in the opposing city so everyone in the office was up WAY too late last night and some were even at the game. Considering our CEO has season tix I’m surprised we haven’t yet gotten such an email.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Actually, I think we’re in the same city :-) I wasn’t clear – the event Sunday is our home team, but it’s an away game. So big deal for my city, but not actually in my city.

          1. zd*

            I live the actual opposing city… i’m sure many bosses here are sending out the same message! ;o)

  15. Bend & Snap*

    Well, last Friday I posted about the lack of work from home. And later that day CNN published an article sourced by our soon to be parent company in support of a massive remote work initiative.

    So as of a week ago, work from home is restored and all is well in the land.

  16. F.*

    I’m almost afraid to type this for fear of jinxing myself, but my replacement as HR Manager starts Monday! About a month ago, I wrote on the Friday Open Thread seeking advice on the wisdom of stepping back into my former Office Manager role at this company because I lack the education (and buy-in from the company owner) to perform my duties as they need to be performed in this increasingly complicated HR legal environment. In short, I was afraid of causing the company and myself legal harm through my ignorance (or by being blamed for the company owner’s decisions). The current admin has been having an increasingly bad attitude and performance problems and will be let go next week, so I will be taking over her duties along with providing sales support and continuing to be the executive assistant to the general manager. My plate will be quite full, especially while I am training my replacement in HR, but I am definitely up for the challenge. Thanks to everyone here who commented and gave support, especially Wakeen’s Teapots Ltd.!

  17. anoning*

    Sooooo I had an awful interview on Wednesday that was awful on my end and from the company’s side.

    First, it was an unexpected interview. They had called me on Monday and everything sounded great, so I accepted an in-person interview. I have a black suit dress I wear for presentations and I figured that was fine, but then the night before I panicked and thought maybe I should wear a blazer instead of a cardigan. I was running late that morning and wore the blazer, which turned out to be navy and not black like my dress, so it was noticeably mismatched. It was for a startup, so I was hoping they thought I was just being fashionable or something.

    And then when I was getting off the subway someone pushed past me, I stumbled but didn’t fall, but my toe was throbbing. Halfway during the 4 hour interview, I asked to go to the bathroom and my food was covered with blood! I’m so glad I wore nylons to the interview, because most of the blood was seeped up, but the inside of my shoe is now stained. It was gross.

    But even though it was a pretty awful experience on my end, the company turned out to be awful. The job they described on the phone as a managerial job was actually an assistant job where they wanted me to support 30 people. And one of the people I interviewed with was SUCH A JERK. He kept cutting me off and asking invasive questions and kept badgering me for the name of my manager. And when I asked why, he said he wanted to contact him, and I said I still worked there so I would prefer that they not, and he said “oh, ok, I didn’t read your resume, but I’d still like to contact him if we offer you the job”. Everyone else was nice, but this one guy left me with such a gross feeling.

    So no loss overall, but now I have an awful interview story!

    1. Anna*

      Argh! If I believed in omens, I would say the whole thing leading up to the actual interview was one. “I didn’t read your resume”? Really? Jerk!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      What a day! And yes, what a jerk. I hope your toe is better. I once got a paper cut in the middle of an interview and practically bled all over the table, so I feel you. (I didn’t get that job, but I found out later it was because the position was eliminated after the first round of interviews.)

    3. SophieChotek*

      I am sorry! That sounds awful…between getting pushed in the subway resulting in a bloody foot and misrepresented job and jerky potential co-worker…

      2. anoning*

        Yeah, I was completely shocked. I finished out the interview because I figured it’d give me good practice, but I was blown away that on the phone they described it as a Senior Marketing Project Manager position overseeing two Project Managers and an intern, and then in person said they wanted me to create an entire project management system from scratch while assisting 30 people. Crazy. I dodged a bullet here.

    1. Pontoon Pirate*

      Is it possible we on this site are actually shaping reality by our comments?

      … that’s a lot of responsibility for a Friday.

  19. OhNo*

    What are people’s thoughts and/or opinions on a person holding multiple part-time jobs in the long term?

    I just started a second part-time job (both are <20 hours per week), and the longer I do this, the more I realize that I like holding two completely different positions at once. I basically get to do one job in the morning, and then switch to a totally different job in the afternoon. Scheduling can sometimes be tricky, but it means I'm never bored for more than four hours, and I can reboot my interest and motivation halfway through the day.

    I'm worried about how it will appear to future employers, though. If I choose to move to a full-time position, will it reflect badly on me to have worked at multiple part-time jobs for so long? I know there's some financial fallout from doing this right now (no benefits for me, alas), but will it be a problem in the long term, especially re: my negotiating power if I decide to move to a single full-time job?

    1. AMT 2*

      I don’t know how it would look to future employers, but I like variety as well – I’ve found that the best full-time jobs for me are ones where either its a small company so lots of roles to fill, or the person who does sort of backup or overflow work for a whole department – so I have my regular duties but pitch in when someone is on vacation or has a heavy workload. I get to learn and do lots more than in a regular single-job type of roll. Just something to keep in mind for future if you decide to look for a full-time job.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        I totally agree. After two years in full-time roles where I wore two (or more) different hats, I’ll be transitioning to a position where I basically do one thing at the end of the summer. I’m mostly excited, but I do worry a little bit about getting bored!

    2. bb-great*

      The biggest drawback of a part-time position (besides the trouble to you of scheduling and benefits) as I see it is that they tend to be less…involved? with the wider office. You may not be a part of a team in the same way, you might not get the same insight into the bigger picture of the work, etc as you might with a full time position. They tend to be more like someone assigns you work and you do it, period. Depending on what you do/your field/your companies this may not be true, but it’s where my mind would go, at least.

      On the other hand, if you were applying to a full-time position that required wearing many hats, you have a persuasive argument that you are not only capable, but eager to do that. So there’s more than one way to look at it.

      Not sure how this might affect negotiations. If your new employer sees the part-time work as somewhat less valuable than full time, maybe they would want to pay you less.

    3. overeducated*

      It hasn’t been a problem for me and I did it for three years. Being part time in itself doesn’t seem like an issue if you have a track record of consistency.

      In my opinion the long term problem is the financial one that you mention – two part time jobs just never pay like one full time job! – and also the difficulty of gaining responsibility or supervisory status. If you want to move up, being part time can be an inherent limit to that in a lot of organizations, which can mean that it’s more difficult to command a higher salary or better position in a full time job.

      1. KR*

        This -I’ve had two part time jobs for 5 years and I’m at the end of my rope with it. I’m very close to being in one full time job but it’s a slow process. You’re right about the financial aspect- especially if one job has different hours week to week. It’s hard to budget when every weeks pay is different. For me the schedule is my biggest problem. I work an office job and a retail job and I almost never have the same day off two weeks in a row and usually only get one day off a week – sometimes I get no days off. If this job coming up doesn’t work out I’m quitting them both.

    4. Kittens*

      I work 4(!) part-time jobs and I mostly love it. I get bored really easily/wouldn’t do well in a 9-5 or office situation. Upsides: being able to go to Trader Joe’s on Tuesday at 11am when it’s empty, having more flexibility, never get bored, keeps me more active, makes it easier to have a dog. Downsides: I essentially work 7 days/week though they’re sometimes half days, not as many benefits so I have to be really careful about saving money and contributing to a Roth IRA, etc. No stock options in my future either, but then again I don’t know anyone who is these days :/ It’s harder to lobby for a raise for sure, but it helps that I live in a very labor friendly state. My fiance is 100% freelance, so a planner is my best friend. But I like the lifestyle! Some people won’t get it though, they’ll just immediately equate part-time with failure or inability to get a full-time, but it’s never bothered me.

      I will say that being a perennial part-timer has never hurt me in job hunting, honestly it’s helped! I have a really well-rounded resume because I’ve done so many different things but within a certain few interlocking fields, so I seem well-rounded but still focused. I’m also not a job-hopper so that helps.

  20. Lillian McGee*

    Can we talk about side-gigs? What’s yours?

    The one I’m interviewing for today is data collection at events for a study that a big organization is undertaking in my state. I loved, loved doing backstage security at summer concerts but the schedule didn’t work with my 9-5. I’ve been thinking about side-gigs for a long time but never came across one that was part-time enough to still do my job and have *some* free time.

    1. Tuckerman*

      The most successful side gig I had was picking up shifts as a barista at a cafe where I had worked before I became full time at my current (non-food service) job. I knew the job well and left on very good terms, so my boss was happy to have me pick up shifts when I wanted to. I think it’s much easier to find something part time and flexible if you already have a relationship with the business.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        This is how I got my side gig (tutoring) – a non-profit that I worked for last summer was looking for part time tutors and brought me on as soon as I reached out to them about a posting, no interview or anything. Even though teaching is my day job, I tutor different grades than I teach, so it keeps things fresh.

    2. City Worker*

      I do side work for the province’s liquor, tobacco, and gambling commission. I’m fairly young so according to their rules for sellers, I should be carded. I basically go around and ask for smokes/liquor/to play slots and if they card me I give them a $20 Visa gift certificate and if they don’t they go in my naughty book.

      It’s really neat, they have all sorts of controls in place. I have to send them a photo of what I looked like that day along with who didn’t card me, and all sorts of details so they can get an accurate glimpse.

      $15/hr, mileage, and reimbursement if I’m at a restaurant to do this and I buy a drink (just the drink) and parking/cabs/Ubers if need be,

      1. Lillian McGee*

        Ooh, that’s interesting! I got carded every time I turned a dang corner in Las Vegas (even when I went up to the bar for a WATER) so I might be a good fit too!

            1. Audiophile*

              I wish I could have witnessed that conversation.
              “Hi, I’d like some water.”
              “I need to see your ID first, before I can serve you water from the bar.”

      2. Ralph S. Mouse*

        I did this once for a temp agency. I kind of hated it. :/ I’m sure (well, I hope) the process has improved somewhat, but the directions were incredibly confusing (like there’d be three bars in a multi-building casino and I’d be so lost) or they’d “forget” that you had to pay to park at said casino. More than that, I just hated having to “catch” people. I just felt bad about it.

        1. City Worker*

          I’ve been at this for over a year now and it’s actually really well done! They never get in trouble — I just write down the establishment so that they go on a priority list for retesting. It’s not the law to card under 27, it’s just a requirement with those who have a liquor/tobacco/gambling license, but since I’m not a minor they don’t get into *real* trouble.

          And since they’re a provincial thing, they go by the book with expenses, procedures, etc.

      3. Random Reader*

        Where are you located? This sounds like such an interesting job! As someone who also looks young, I’d be very interested in doing this.

          1. Anana*

            Calgarian here! Do you have any info about how I can get involved with something like this? Websites to check out or job titles to search for?

        1. City Worker*

          It’s a bit time consuming so you have to make a day of it. Sometimes I ask for smokes and the cashiers straight up laugh at me, because apparently I do not look, or sound, like a smoker. I don’t get to pick where to go either — that’s chosen by the commission, so I’ve been sent on 1hr+ drives just for some cigarettes. But I get .79c per km so not a bad deal!

          Otherwise, I love it! Perfect side gig.

    3. White Mage*

      I really want a side gig to help pay down my credit card debt, but it’s impossible to predict if I might get stuck at my normal 9-5 till 6pm or later (maybe 1-2 times a month, at most), so I’m afraid to setup anything with a set schedule. I’ve looked into secret shopping, but there are few opportunities in my area.

      1. TL -*

        I do photography for a local sports league and when I’m busy at work I just pick up any last-minute shifts as I can.

      2. phedre*

        I babysit as a side gig! There are 3-4 families whose kids I watch regularly (started with one family and then they gave my name to all of their friends). Some months I’m busy every Friday and Saturday, and other months I won’t babysit at all. Made an extra $200 this week watching the kiddos! In a busy month I can make an extra $300-$500. It’s easy money because the kiddos are mostly well-behaved and they go to bed early.

    4. Anon Moose*

      Pet sitting, actually. Which works for me since I can’t have pets in my current living arrangement.

    5. Rachael*

      Nothing regular but I help a friend out with his wedding entertainment business. So setting up dance floors, smoke machines, photo booths etc. Super easy, fun, and well paid!

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I was going to say something similar- serving at catered events. Haven’t done it on the side myself, but a current coworker and my niece do it. And where we live, they usually post on craigslist under side gigs the week before.

    6. Megs*

      My side gig for the last couple of years (if it counts as such because it’s “seasonal”) is grading bar exams. Twice a year I get together with a team of two other lawyers and spend a few hours going through whatever question we’ve been assigned to, then I have a couple of weeks to grade during my free time. It’s not a big check, but it’s still some extra cash, and because I’m a weirdo, it’s actually kind of fun to really dig into random areas of law.

        1. Megs*

          In my case I got into it when I was a clerk at our state court of appeals – the head staff attorney had been doing it for ages and asked if anyone was interested when they needed more people. As best I can tell it was entirely word of mouth – I’ve never seen them advertising for more people. Like I said, it doesn’t pay much, but the people who do it tend to see it as a kind of public service/nerdy fun kind of thing so there’s not necessarily a lot of turnover (I’ve been doing it for a couple of years now and don’t have plans to quit). If you were interested, I’d say just approach your state board of bar examiners and ask, and/or poke around on LinkedIn and see if you know anyone in your state who does it.

          1. Megs*

            To clarify, I’d suspect they are usually looking for one or two new people a year depending on how many people take the bar in your state, they’re just not regularly hiring whole new teams (YMMV depending on how your state does things). Here in MN we use teams of three graders per question and our exam has six essays and two practical questions, so that’s 24 graders total.

            1. BabyAttorney*

              Maryland had ten questions…might be worth a shot. Thanks! It sounds super interesting.

              1. anonderella*

                Please smack me for even making this stupid joke, but from your name, I’m so picturing you grading a bunch of toddler’s exams : ) (it’s a really cute visual, so thank you)

                1. anonderella*

                  ok wait, the cute visual was of the babies taking exams.. though I’m sure grading exams makes people look cute too.

                  ok, over and out.

                2. BabyAttorney*

                  Can you see a bunch of toddlers trying to defend somebody in court? That is hilarious.

    7. evilintraining*

      I’m an Uber driver. I like that I can drive when I want to and not have to worry about suddenly being scheduled for a shift that crosses over with my FT hours. But I haven’t been at it very long, so any advice from long-term Uber people would be appreciated. :)

    8. themmases*

      Last summer I did data collection took a tobacco study. We went around to convenience stores and recorded their selection, prices, advertisements, etc. It was great! Downtown Chicago was in my area so if have days where I just walked around all day and went inside high rises and hotels. Other days I’d be way out on the west side. I got to know the city way better and I was part of evaluating a cool new law. That was a side gig for most of us.

      Currently I do some freelance science editing and statistical consulting. It’s really fun, it is related to my work (epidemiology) but not so related that it is a conflict of interest and I learn a lot about other epi topics. Plus there’s that great/weird consulting feeling where I just give my opinion on someone’s paper and they go nuts, they’re thrilled.

    9. Danae*

      I manage communications for a tiny nonprofit that has an outsized impact on our field as a side gig. It’s been a great experience–I’m keeping my project management skills sharp, honing my marketing writing and branding skills, and I’ve gone to some events I never would have been able to otherwise. (It also looks good on my resume!)

      The downside–and it’s a major one–is that our fundraising season runs from May through August, and I’m the one responsible for making sure everything goes smoothly. Summer vacations are a no-go. Eventually, I’d like to get this stuff into a place where I can leave for a week or so and everything will function without me, but it’s definitely not happening this year.

    10. AnAnonTodayBecauseReasons*

      My side gig is helping an indie nail polish brand with social media. I get “paid” in nail polish which works out for me because I end up getting more polish than I’d have been able to buy on my own. I basically subsidized my hobby in a trade agreement. Flexible hours and 100% remote. We’re not even in the same state.

        1. AnAnonTodayBecauseReasons*

          Right? It’s 100% perfect for me. And the owner is a joy to work with, I get to see stuff before it comes out, help plan fun giveaways, etc etc. It doesn’t feel like work!

    11. BabyAttorney*

      I moonlight occasionally on weekends as a party princess. A friend does it full time and sometimes gets a booking for two princesses and I’ll help out (= For a dude gig it’s super well paid and worth it. Just wish there were more parties this year! ;)

      1. CM*

        I assume “dude gig” is a typo? Otherwise, that’s a pretty niche side job, and I bet you’d get to go to some really fun parties!

      2. anonderella*

        I knew a party mermaid. She had a tail I guess made of swimsuit-type material, and she would just swim around at parties and just generally make the pool look fabulous.

        We actually worked together a year previous to me coming face to face with her in a pool at a good friend of mine’s party. I had the rare occasion to exclaim “I know that mermaid!”

    12. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      I work part time a local pet shop! I worked there all through high school so it’s fun to pull the occasional weekend as an adult, it’s like visiting a relative but with more guinea pigs.

    13. SophieChotek*

      I work as a barista/cashier at a local coffee shop on weekends.

      I also pick up seasonal/contract jobs, which have included working for a non-profit theater, scoring exams for companies that are contracted by various states.

    14. Laura*

      I’ve applied to be a lifeguard at the local city pools. I used to guard in high school/college and I could use some extra income to help pay rent. Fingers crossed!

    15. A Teacher*

      I teach medical terminology as an adjunct and I work prn as an athletic trainer and do game coverage for a local physical therapy clinic.

    16. QualityControlFreak*

      Side jobs I have had…. Editing, writing, sales, entertainment. None now as main job + commute = no second gig if I want to have any free time.

    17. Elizabeth West*

      I wrote for wiseGEEK for a while when I was at Exjob. Then they stopped taking new articles for a revamp of the site where they wanted curators to add video, links, etc. They asked me if I wanted to do that, but the rate had dropped, so I said no. For a content job, it was pretty nice. They paid by the post, NOT by the batch. And it was fun to write some of them because I had to actually research them and I learned stuff. :)

      I couldn’t really handle anything like an extra job at a shop or a food place for one day a week–the pay wouldn’t be worth the fatigue. And I wouldn’t have time to write. I left school far behind so I could write. Though it’s work, it’s unpaid at the moment.

  21. City Worker*

    I have a quick but school related question.

    I am currently a Communication Disorders student and I am going to apply to speech therapy programs for my MSc. There are only 6 schools in Canada — my school, UBC, McGill, and three in Ontario.

    I have NO idea which school to apply to. Obviously my own, but I do wanna try my shot at other places, just in case I get in!

    With it only being 6 schools and my app fees to be reimbursed by my education fund, should I just try my luck and apply to all? I have the grades + prerequisites to do so, but whenever I mention this idea to someone I feel like they think it’s a bad idea.

    1. Rye-Ann*

      I am in the US, not Canada, so maybe there are some nuances to the Canadian university system I won’t know about? That said, I see no disadvantages to applying to all of them, especially if the fees are reimbursed. The only thing I can think of which might make it a waste of time, slightly, is if there is a school you know FOR SURE you would NEVER consider attending. But the more schools you apply to, the more choice you will potentially have when deciding where to go do your MSc. I have a hard time seeing why that wouldn’t be a good thing!

      1. OhNo*

        Basically this. If there are schools that you definitely don’t want to go to, then skip those. If that doesn’t apply, but you don’t want to take the time to apply to all six, you might just rank the schools based on personal preference and then just skip applying to the lowest one or two.

        I feel like the only reasons I’ve ever heard for not applying to every school are knowing you won’t get in (not an issue for you), cost of the application (not an issue for you), and the time and energy it takes to do all the applications properly. If the last isn’t an problem for you, then go for it!

          1. Laura*

            Absolutely! I work in higher ed and I’m always shocked at students who apply to 15+ schools. I applied to four… couldn’t afford to do any more, and those were the only ones I was actually seriously considering.

            1. Audiophile*

              I applied to six and managed to get the fees waived for some. Now that I’m looking at grad school (again) I have to be even more selective. ($100-$200 per application.)

    3. Cristina in England*

      I would seriously think about which city I wanted to live in. There is so much to consider here, I mean McGill and UBC are thousands of miles apart, geographically and also culturally. Try and think about which city fits your lifestyle as well as considering the strengths of the academic programs and the local job markets for after graduation. If you want to work in Quebec after graduating then your French has to be really good, but not so much if you are out west. Good luck!

    4. SJ*

      6 schools isn’t a ridiculous number at all — you should apply to all of them, if they’re all legitimate possibilities.

    5. themmases*

      Yeah, six is not that many IMO. The advice I got about applying to grad school, and it served me really well, was to apply to anything I thought I might be interested in so I could weigh the best possible options when decisions came back.

      I would say save your money if you weren’t one of the strongest candidates and were open to applying again– then just apply to realistic bets. But if you’re strong candidate, no sense wondering what might have been. Find out everywhere that wants you, then pick.

    6. Not Karen*

      Incidentally if you have any interest in being challenged and/or speaking your mind, do not go to McGill.

      1. Cristina in England*

        Are you speaking specifically about the communications disorder program, or generally? That was certainly not my experience when I was there (in Faculty of Arts) but every department is different.

    8. fposte*

      Where do you want the degree to take you? How does that map onto the alums of each of the schools?

    9. Brett*

      Ask your professors. They will at least know the reputation and capabilities of each skill and might know you well enough to help you match to a school.
      Applying is more than just filling out an application. You will often want to reach out to and network with professors from there, so it can be a heavy time sink too.

      One important thing to remember: norms could be different in Canada and vary from discipline to discipline, but generally you should _not_ apply to your own school. Your grad and undergrad degree should be from two different places to show you have been exposed to a diversity of academic thought in your field.
      Again, ask your professors to find out the norms for your field.

      1. Felix*

        I’ve heard this before too. Wondering if it is more applicable advice to somone who wants to work in academia vs someone who will get a job outside a university? Many of my friends/colleagues did their undergrads and masters and the same school and all are very successful. However, non of them attempted to become professors.

    10. Lydia*

      I work at one of these schools. This is a VERY competitive graduate program in Canada with very limited seats. I would suggest applying broadly…but as others have mentioned, only to schools you want to attend. Also, for a highly competitive program there’s no negative connotation to being at the same school as your undergraduate degree (in my experience) so don’t worry about that. Best of luck!

  22. Daisy Dukes*

    NYC sales people, what kind of base salary is reasonable to ask for someone with 3-4 years experience looking to move to a new company and get a bit of a bump in salary from $52k?

  23. Applesauced*

    VENT – We have a mandatory meeting at work today, and I emailed the office manager asking how I should log the time in the meeting on my timesheet. Answer – there is no way to log the time because this meeting is during “lunch.”
    If it’s really mandatory, it shouldn’t be taking place on my time – UGH.

    Note: I’m salaried, so this isn’t illegal just really annoying

    1. Adam V*

      I’d probably do one of two things, depending on how annoyed I was and my relationship with the office manager:

      1) Bring my keys and head straight from the lunch meeting out the door to actually get lunch, and stay gone for an hour. (If I took this route, I’d probably spend the entire meeting looking at my watch, too.)

      2) Respond back to the office manager and say “sorry, I already made unbreakable lunch plans. Can you email me a synopsis of what I missed?”

    3. CheeryO*

      I always take lunch afterward when this situation comes up, and I have yet to be called out on it. YMMV of course; my job is decently flexible.

    4. Applesauced*

      Thanks for the replies. The issue is that I have to fill out a timesheet accounting for my 8 hours per day. So I just spent 1.5 hours in a meeting, now I’m eating lunch at my desk – I either have to stay late to get 8 hours, or fudge the numbers and bill some extra time to a client.

      1. Blurple*

        You don’t have a category for administrative time or something for if something like this wasn’t at lunch? That’s garbage.

        1. Applesauced*

          Oh believe me, I’ve been asking about “overhead,” “admin,” or “general office” time since Day One. All it’s gotten me are confused looks and blank stares.

  24. Caledonia*

    Riffing off bassclefchick’s post above, what are the unemployment/benefit rules where you live?

    I am currently unemployed and searching for work. In order to claim benefits, I have to show at least 30 steps a week in which I am actively looking for work, which can include items like applying, interviewing, websites you use to search.

    It’s exhausting :(

    Further on, you get a job coach and possibly sent to “helpful” classes to try and help you become employed. The airquotes are because I’m not entirely convinced from what I’ve seen & heard.

    1. Megs*

      I had to go to a “helpful” job search class once, but otherwise you just have to certify that you’re actively looking for and available for employment. The funny thing is that immediately prior to going on unemployment I was working for our state court of appeals, which involved regularly reviewing appeals from denial of benefits, so I was suuuuuper paranoid about making sure I was documenting my search in case I ever got challenged! 90% of the time people were just mad about getting fired and saying that they totally didn’t deserve it, so those cases were pretty straightforward, but occasionally you would get the department challenging someone’s job search and that was a lot tougher (and often sadder).

    2. zd*

      Ugh, that would be my nightmare! I’ve been on UI in both Oregon and California, and they don’t make it so onerous, thank goodness. When I was in Oregon, I was looking for work in a very niche field, and I can’t even imagine how there would be 30 steps per week that would show that! The job market was terrible in the state, and there weren’t 30 jobs per week I could have applied to, even if I wasted entire days applying for awful, minimum wage jobs I would never get hired for. This cr*p you’re going through makes me so mad, it’s such a waste of time and mostly useless at getting a competitive, professional-level job, grrrr.

      1. zd*

        To actually answer your question, to the best of my recollection: OR I had to write down maybe 4 things a week I was doing to find a job, and they could be pretty vague. And no classes. CA you don’t have to do anything, except check a box saying “Yes, I actively looked for work this week”

    3. bassclefchick*

      Cool! My state requires a “waiting week” which means you don’t get anything paid to you the first week you are unemployed. I believe that the thought there is that your last paycheck from your job you just lost (or any severance package from a layoff) should provide you an income during the waiting week.

      And, as I said, you have to apply for 4 jobs per week. And I’ve heard that now you have to provide the information of where you applied instead of just checking the box that yup, I applied to 4 different places.

    4. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      When my husband was drawing unemployment:
      – Had to send in a weekly detailed list of where and what dates he applied to each job to meet his quoata of weekly application.
      – You had to save a copy of these as well, since you could be audited (I kid you not) up to 2 years after receiving unemployment.
      – Mandatory monthly classes to “help” you find a job. Why yes, the reason my husband, with two college degrees, cannot find a job in this economically depressed state is clearly due to the fact that he does not know how to properly use a mouse.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      30 STEPS!!?!???!!

      That is INSANE. (Note to self–don’t be unemployed in the UK.)

      In my state, you have a waiting week before it starts, and you have to apply for at least three positions each week. You go online and fill out a thing–you used to have to turn in a sheet that said what jobs you applied for, but while they don’t make you do that anymore, you have to keep track, because if they ask you to show them, you need to be able to do it. I literally just signed in and then clicked a dropdown that said how many I did. But when I went in for a meeting mid-unemployment, I printed off my jobs spreadsheet and took it in to show them.

      But they all had to be jobs you would take if they offered. Some weeks there simply weren’t three jobs I could have taken, so I had to apply to different ones at the same giant healthcare system. They never called me, so it was relatively safe. You were required to take it if offered (though I didn’t take one because I couldn’t live on the salary).

      Unemployment benefits were a percentage of your previous salary–when I was on it in 2003, it was much less than when I was on it in 2012 because I was making more. Still, the amount is dismally small. Not enough to pay all the bills. And if you earn anything at all, you have to report it and they deduct that from the benefits, so it’s pretty much useless to work at all while getting them.

      With my LD, being unemployed is a nightmare of epic proportions. And I’m single with no kids, so I get little to no help in any other way. I hate hate hate hate it. I hate not having any backup at all. My parents have helped in the past, but they won’t be around forever.

  25. Utopia Blast*

    Hi-

    I have a work trip coming up where I will be making an important presentation. My job has given certain limits that we can spend travel. The problem is that my disability makes it difficult to get around, and I need a hotel that is near the venue or close to public transit. However, most of those hotels are in the city center and are priced at more than double what we can pay. Other folks manage to rent a car and save on the hotel. I cannot drive. My job now expects me to cover the difference between what hotel I choose and their limit. How do i deal with this?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I would push back and point out that they are basically expecting you to pay for being disabled! You’re not taking a different hotel because of personal desires, you’re taking what you need. You shouldn’t get gouged because your job refuses to accommodate your disability (and I would use those words while staring pointedly at your HR person when you have this talk).

    2. Anon Moose*

      I’m not a lawyer or in HR, but that’s got to be a reasonable accommodation thing, doesn’t it?

    3. Belle*

      Could you ask HR for an ADA accommodation for this aspect? I don’t see this being any different than if an employee needed special software ordered to meet the job requirements.

    4. LawCat*

      Can you take a cab/Uber/Lyft to and from the hotel and venue? That might be a workable accommodation. They should be discussing this with you. Maybe open with your manager, “Because of a mobility disability, I need an accommodation to do my job at this event. If the company is cannot accommodate by covering a hotel that is closer to the venue, will it cover a cab to and from the venue? Do you have some other ideas we can discuss?”

    5. Pwyll*

      Yeah, this is one of those areas where you don’t apologize and just tell HR how it is.

      “As you know, my disability makes it such that I can’t drive or walk for long periods of time. As such, the cheapest hotel that can accommodate my disability is xyz hotel. How would you like for me to handle this in the expense system?” And if they say you need to pay the difference: “Unfortunately, as this is a work event I won’t be able to do that. I’m happy to provide documentation from my doctor if you need it for recordkeeping purposes, but I’m going to need to stay within x radius of the event for medical purposes.”

    6. Sualah*

      Are they sure they’d be paying more? It sounds like with other employees, they’re paying for car + hotel, and for you, it would just be hotel. So the math might still work out. Either way, you shouldn’t have to cover it, I’m just wondering if you can present it that way, it might be easier to figure out the solution.

    7. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      I would start by coming up with alternatives to provide them with that *you* feel comfortable with. (AKA, DO NOT offer these if you cannot be comfortable AND safely navigate, please!!)

      Some alternatives I can think of:

      1.) Can you use an alternative lodging near the event center, such as Air BnB? If so, those many be more affordable in comparison to a hotel.

      2) Is there a co-worker traveling with you who can rent (and drive) the car, thus allowing you both to stay at a farther hotel and saving the trouble?

      3.) Can the company provide a car or cab service to and from the venue to a cheaper hotel?

      If none of these alternatives work, I would suggest sitting down with your manager/HR and talking about the challenges this presents, and what their thoughts are on how to proceed.

  26. Happy it's Friday*

    How safe would it be to post a Monster review of my company? We have less than 20 people and are family owned. We’re hiring and potential hires need warned.

    They promise health insurance, dental, life insurance but we have none. They’re toxic and very political and unless you are related to them you won’t succeed. They won’t address performance issues with you but WILL complain to other staff about the person.

    Is this a bad idea?

    1. Anon Moose*

      What’s the worst that could happen- they find out and fire you? Change some details so you can’t be identified if you can. And… with a company that crappy I think you’d be on your way out as well…

    2. themmases*

      It really depends how identifiable your complaints are. If they’re something only you or a small number of people experienced, is just keep it to myself. If it’s something that anyone in the company would know, it’s probably safe. Just don’t share your department, title, age gender…

      If you’re committed to doing it I would check out Glassdoor over Monster. I rarely hear about people checking Monster for that sort of thing and it’s much of the purpose of Glassdoor.

    3. esra*

      I’d post on glassdoor rather than monster. You can be vague about the position and just highlight those issues.

  27. alice*

    Venting time! I asked my darling coworker to please answer a customer’s questions (these were things I couldn’t possibly know), and he took the liberty of explaining to me yesterday that I am a “Tier 1” employee and he is a “Tier 4” employee, and that means that he never has to do the lowly job of -gasp- speaking to customers and that maybe, just maybe, someday I’ll get to his position. I don’t understand how you get to be forty years old without having addressed your social phobia.

    1. Adam V*

      Can you push back to his boss that he’s refusing to answer the customer’s questions? I’m sure that wouldn’t look good for him.

      1. alice*

        Oh I’ve tried. I do have another meeting with Boss next week about this, but Boss and coworker were college buddies. Thank God I’m leaving in two months.

        1. Adam V*

          I just don’t understand how that sort of crap will fly anywhere. There’s no one above your boss to say “wait, wait, you got a complaint about Bob and you’re ignoring it… why, again? Oh, because you’ve known each other for 20 years. Yeah, that’s crap. Here are your new options –

          1) you call Bob in here right now and you prove to me that you’re willing to properly take him to task

          2) I demote you to Bob’s level and hire someone who will properly instruct *both* of you how to respond to bad employee behavior

          3) I fire Bob

          Your call.”

          (I mean, odds are that no one above your boss knows, but still, that’s the sort of thing that makes me furious, and if I were in a higher-up position, I would totally go into that manager’s office and say this.)

          1. alice*

            I hope you’re a manager somewhere. You sound like you know how to handle this kind of … stuff.

            1. Adam V*

              I wish. :) I’d like for managing to be in my long-term plans, but as I wrote below, I’m currently a developer, and the path from software development to management is… odd. They’re such different skills that I have no idea if I’d be any good at it.

              (And as my above response indicates, I’m unsure I’d have the proper level of tact when it comes to these sorts of situations.) :)

    2. Susan C*

      I mean… is it his job to talk to the customer? Not trying to be snarky here, but I imagine you’re not the first person in your job to not know something, so there is probably a procedure, and maybe that procedure is to find out, and then get back to the customer. You may well question the efficiency of that, but I’d try to find out if that’s the case or if he is *just* a stuck up glassbowl.

      (Disclaimer: this kind of telephone game is a pretty large part of my job, but it makes perfect sense because there’s both a language and a knowledge barrier, so to speak, that requires an interpreter)

      1. Susan C*

        Oh, never mind, if you’ve got a foot out the door anyways, then just vent away and forget I said anything ^^°

      2. alice*

        You’re right, his job doesn’t technically include talking to customers. Usually I handle that. I just don’t understand why he can’t suck it up once every few months and drop to “Tier 1” to handle someone who just really wants to talk to him.

        1. Adam V*

          I’m a developer, and we’ve got multiple levels in between me and customers. Still, there are times where the front-line people ask me to get on a call to see if I can help figure out a customer’s issue, and if that’s the case, I don’t get to say “sorry, that’s a ‘Tier 1’ task.”

          So yeah, this guy is just a jerk, but one whose boss isn’t holding him accountable for it so he gets away with it.

    3. Temperance*

      He just sounds like a jerk. I doubt it’s social phobia … more like garden-variety douche.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I probably would have tried to make him stand 10 feet away from the customer as I played telephone with the two of them, just to point out how ridiculous he was being. Or, if that failed, run back and forth between them and tell him “wait right here, I’ll go tell her that and see if that raises any further questions” until he saw how ridiculous THAT was.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          *high five*

          Don’t forget to take notes and make him slow down as you write down what he says!

  28. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Any tips on working while bloody exhausted? I’m in the middle of moving hell and I will be for a while still (it’s a drawn-out move…) and while I certainly can’t take the whole time off work, it’s also killing me to come in every day bone-sore, aching and already drooping! I’m not at my best, and I’m trying to play catch-up for the time I have had to take off for various aspects of this thing. How do you guys manage? So far I’m using peppy headphones music and trying to judiciously up my caffeine intake to help manage, but the caffeine turns into a vicious cycle of more caffeine -> less sleep -> more tired -> more caffeine and on and on.

    I can’t wait till it’s over!

    1. Alston*

      Taper off the caffeine in the afternoon, that way you’ll at least be able to sleep some. And drink a LOT of water, you’ll feel better if you’re more hydrated–and at the very least having to get up to pee often will keep you awake.

      Anything else you can knock of your to do list? When I was in school/working full time I stop cooking my own lunches and just subsist off of freezer meals. Just one less thing to deal with every day.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        I like to drink ice water/seltzer if I’m tired/slumping in the afternoon- coffee or tea is warm and calming, even with caffeine, so ice has a more invigorating effect. Also, taking a little walk to fill my water bottle is a nice break :)

    2. BabyAttorney*

      Take a walk during your lunch or break period. Get outside and move around–it’s amazing how much it’ll wake you up.

      1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        This will help with circulation and get those sore muscles healing quicker too.

  29. AnoninTexas*

    I think I’m venting more than I’m asking a question. But what is it with recruiters? They appear to me to be the most unprofessional people in the workplace. Now, before you all unload on me, I know there are some good ones out there. But the vast majority I’ve run across lately are very nice and professional when they want something from you. But when you send them a simple email asking for a status update…nothing.

    I interviewed for a job 3+ weeks ago. I met with the recruiter first for about 30 minutes (who works as an in-house corporate recruiter) and she gave me her card and said “not to hesitate” to reach out to her if I have any questions during the process. She also said to make sure I told her if I had another offer. So, 3+ weeks after my interview (I sent hand-written notes after the interview to her as well as the hiring team I met with) I sent her a 2 sentence email politely asking for an update. No response.

    Before you all start to say she’s had a family emergency, or got sick, or any reason why she couldn’t just respond with “I’m not sure, let me check and get back with you” or “you didn’t make the next round of interviews,” I’ve seen her all over Linked-In posting and sharing articles since I sent her the email 3 days ago. So…I think it’s quite clear she’s just ignoring my email. Maybe she meant to respond and got busy and forgot? But isn’t this a big part of her job, corresponding with candidates? If I forgot to do a part of my job…well, there would be ramifications. As you can tell, I’m frustrated. I know recruiters can’t respond to each applicant. But when you correspond via email with a candidate to schedule an interview, meet in person with that candidate for 30 minutes, hand them your card and say “don’t hesitate” to reach out to me and then ignore them when they do after a reasonable amount of time…that’s just unprofessional as hell!

    1. alice*

      I hear you. I think it all comes down to a lack of respect. Job searching is a two-way street, where each party has to respect the other. People like this operate from a place of profound disregard for job applicants.

      1. OhNo*

        This. Not all recruiters, of course, but certainly the ones I’ve met have a hierarchical view of the hiring process: they are above the candidate, and therefore their time is more important, and they should be immune for having to do anything that whiffs of common courtesy or respect.

    2. some1*

      It’s possible that she is waiting to hear back from other decision-makers before answering you.

      1. zd*

        Then she needs to SAY that!!! I sympathize, I have the same frustrations with the recruiters at the agency that I am currently working for. (And making money for them.)

        1. AnoninTexas*

          Thank you, zd!! I agree. If she’s waiting for the hiring manager to get back with her, then say so! Complete silence for 3 days when I see her on Linked-In is just so unprofessional. I think I may post a comment to one of her Linked-In posts…just to show her that I see her out in social media.

    3. Laura*

      I think many recruiters have the deadly combination of being overworked and disrespectful. They can’t do everything at once, but they also can’t seem to be bothered to give you a one-line answer to a question. It’s a real shame.

    4. Seattle Writer Gal*

      “She also said to make sure I told her if I had another offer.”

      What’s up with this practice? I’ve had recruiters/HR ask this of me at the beginning of every interview process I went through in the past 2 years or so. I have 2 issues with this:
      1) It’s really none of their business who I’m talking to or what other offers I am getting. Pay a reasonable salary, don’t be jerks and you’ll be able to hire good people without entering into bidding wars or other crazy shenanigans.
      2) I have gone back to Company A and told them I’ve received an offer from Company B. This has produced offers from Company A exactly ZERO times. Most of the time I never hear back and the few times that I do the answer is usually something along the lines of “we’re still really early in our process so don’t let that stop you from taking job with Company B” or “congrats on your new job!”

      It’s really frustrating to be ghosted when job hunting. Sadly, it’s super common and as someone who has gone through job searching hell several times, you really just have to not take this personally in order to maintain your sanity.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        It’s asked to make sure they can move you through the hiring process more quickly if you have a pending offer, especially if they’re interested. I don’t think we ask specific companies, just if you have an offer or where you are in other interview processes.

        I work in recruitment and my recruiters are awesome. But again, my company hires for specific traits that other companies don’t. But as someone who also has been on the candidate side and have had companies ghost on me, reject me by phone and give me unsolicited feedback (which was so unusual! and unwelcome) as part of that conversation and in one case, reject me twice for the same job. That was interesting. Received two rejection emails two days apart.

      3. Chaordic One*

        I’ve never had good luck with recruiters. About half the time I would get offered the job, but at the same rate of pay as what I already was making, so I’ve never actually been hired as the result of working with one. There just was no upside to the jobs available through them.

        Not to be arrogant, but I feel like I’m pretty competent and if I was going to go through the hassle of changing jobs (even if it was doing the same thing that I was already doing) I feel that I should be offered at least 10% more than what I was already making.

  30. matcha123*

    One thread this week was talking about relocation, and I was wondering how much time companies tend to give to people who need to relocate.
    A number of years ago, I was interviewing for a job in Tokyo (I’m in far Western Japan). The recruiters I spoke with knew my location, but said that I’d need to be moved and ready to start in 2 weeks.

    Is two weeks typical?

    To add a bit, in Japan, you can’t just toss things in a dumpster and be done with it. Certain types of garbage can only be thrown away on certain days of the month, and some large electronics (like TVs) cannot be used in different parts of the country. My TV bought in Western Japan cannot be used in Tokyo due to different power systems in place.

    I ended up backing out of that interview because there was no way I’d be able to pack up and move out in 2 weeks.
    Also, do you need to be at a certain level to get relocation help? Is it best to ask or is it better to wait for them to offer?

    1. Caledonia*

      When I relocated last year for a job 160 miles away, I thought I’d get relocation as I’d asked HR about it. When I filled for reimbursement, it came to light that HR were mistaken and it was only available for managers/people on Grade 5 and above. I was a Grade 4.

      When I accepted the job, I said I’d need 6 weeks (4 weeks/1 month notice is UK standard) in order to relocated, they were happy with that.

      also, very interesting about Japan electronics! What’s the why of that? (having different power sources – seems wasteful)

      1. matcha123*

        Thanks!
        I’ve been thinking about moving for a long time, but companies and people in general here seem to assume that as a single person, all of my belongings fit into one suitcase and I can just be ready to drop everything at a moment’s notice. Even a month doesn’t seem like much time for me!
        But, I’m glad to hear that I wasn’t totally out of line thinking that 2 weeks was not enough time.

        As to the power, this NPR article might explain it a bit…
        http://www.npr.org/2011/03/24/134828205/a-country-divided-japans-electric-bottleneck

        1. LCL*

          Wow, I never knew this, thanks! Can we send NERC over there to straighten things out, and leave us alone for awhile?

    2. Not Karen*

      Last time I moved a 9 hour drive away within the US. My company gave me 4 weeks from the offer date that could be extended to 5 if needed.

    3. Jubilance*

      Both times I’ve relocated, I had 4 weeks between offer acceptance and start date. Basically I was able to choose my own start date and that was fine for the companies.

      I also got relocation for my first job, which was entry level. It seems pretty standard in that industry – laboratory chemistry.

    4. Audiophile*

      About six months ago, I was interviewing for a job that would have involved a major relocation (I’m in the US, east coast and was interviewing for a job in California) and the company seemed amenable to my need to push the start date back. They understood that I wouldn’t be able to quickly pack up my life and move (even with leaving furniture behind, clothes, electronics, and my car would have been a hassle.) I withdrew my application but that was one of the few times where the discussion went in a logical direction.

      “How long would you need to relocate? Is a month feasible?”

      I didn’t know you couldn’t take certain electronics with you in Japan. That is really fascinating.

    5. Nihonjin*

      Is the employer a Japanese company/organization? One month’s notice is pretty much standard at workplaces in Japan, instead of the two weeks that is typical in the U.S. Therefore, if the recruiter is telling you two weeks… that doesn’t sound right…

      1. matcha123*

        It was a Japanese company, but they have offices overseas. I would have needed to move into the company dorm if I couldn’t find my own company.
        They also wanted me to take what amounted to an SAT in Japanese. The recruiters said it was difficult for native Japanese people. Another reason I dropped out of that application…I didn’t graduate university to have to take a university-like entrance exam for a company. I can’t remember the name of the exam, but it’s apparently well-known and there are study books for it.

  31. Tris Prior*

    Boyfriend’s company just hired someone in a very low-level clerical role (think, literally carrying documents from Point A to Point B and that is the entire job.). He found out from another co-worker that the new guy is making $4/hour more than he is. He’s been at this company for 6 years and, while he’s essentially an admin, has way more responsibilities than that. And his pay has stayed relatively flat with just tiny raises.

    His performance review is coming up, and when he asked me if he should reveal what he knows about the other guy’s salary, I told him that he shouldn’t use that as a reason why he should get a raise. That he needs to keep it about him and his accomplishments and why he’s worth more than his very low salary. And that he’s probably not supposed to know the new guy’s salary anyway (new guy told co-worker what his salary is, and co-worker then told Boyfriend).

    But, this totally sucks and is part of a larger pattern of the company not treating longer-term employees well and not being open to promotions from within or raises. He has a new supervisor this year so maybe it’ll go better. I don’t know. Really, he just needs to get out of there but it’s such a toxic company, he’s convinced himself than anywhere he moves to will be as bad or worse.

    1. Lillian McGee*

      Blerg. Well, he can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube so he may as well try and use the information he knows to bolster his argument. Perhaps during negotiation if things aren’t going his way he can say “I happen to know so-and-so is making $X hourly and if that’s what he is worth, then I think I’m worth at least $X.”

      I feel his pain though. At my first job I found out the girl who was hired after me doing the same job (badly) was both dating the manager I was in love with AND was making several dollars more than me per hour. Double heartbreak.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      You’ve got to tell him to stop thinking that anywhere he goes will be bad or worse. I’ve been down this road and thought this way and it’s detrimental. If he is good at his job and has no other issues at work (attendance, working with others, etc.) he shouldn’t have an issue finding another job.

      And I agree with you that he shouldn’t bring up the new employee’s salary unless it is the last straw and he’s prepared to give notice.

      When I worked in retail this happened ALL THE TIME…..the longer you were there the less disparity in pay there became between the existing employees and the new hires. This was due to the terrible financial health of the company and their lack of funds to provide meaningful raises (think $0.13 raise for an entire year when you are “exceeding expectations.” However, the only way to get anyone to take a job in retail hell was to offer them a salary that was on par with what competitors were paying. And thus…..by the time I left, there were new hires that were coming in making more money that I did after more than 10 years and some did a great job and others were terrible. This situation was perpetuated by the attitude that began at corporate and trickled down.

      At the end of the day, a company’s goal is to pay the employee as little as possible while still retaining someone qualified in that role. If they think that he will stay forever and continue allowing them to pay him peanuts, what incentive is there for them to increase his pay? Your boyfriend should definitely argue for higher pay, based on his duties and accomplishments, and perhaps allude to the fact that he is aware that new hires are coming on board at a higher pay rate than he is making, although depending upon the number of employees and how many recent new hires there are, this may out him. If it all goes left, and he doesn’t care about being let go and potentially burning that bridge, then throw it out there. At that point, he’s got nothing to lose.

      1. Tris Prior*

        Yeah…. I have told him that he can’t possibly know that EVERY job out there will treat him terribly. I’ve been in that mindset too – that all jobs are horrible and anything I moved do would be just as bad. I was fortunate enough to find jobs that proved that incorrect.

        We’re not in a position that we can be without his income, so I don’t think he’s comfortable shooting off his mouth about the gross inequities in pay. What you describe in retail is probably what happened to him too. I also told him that it’s possible that this guy negotiated for a higher salary and they said yes. (Boyfriend did not negotiate; he was out of work and took this job out of sheer desperation of needing SOME money coming in asap.)

        I suggested to him that he ask his manager flat out “what do I need to do to be promoted/get a raise?” I think I convinced him to do that…. his fear is that the answer will be “get your degree” as he doesn’t have one. Which probably also has something to do with his low pay, though I can’t see how a college degree makes the other guy more competent at delivering paperwork! But we are SO not in the position that we can pay for school, or pay student loans.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          Which probably also has something to do with his low pay, though I can’t see how a college degree makes the other guy more competent at delivering paperwork!

          While a degree doesn’t necessarily make someone more competent at their job, unfortunately, companies will pay someone who has one more than someone who doesn’t even when they’re doing the same job. I’ve seen this play out time in again at the companies/firms I’ve worked at. This may be why the other guy makes more, along with the negotiating thing, and if paying for professional development isn’t an option for your boyfriend right now, he’s just going to have to try and make his case for a raise based on his performance to date and understand he may or may not get it.

      2. Mirilla*

        That happened with me in retail too. I was a supervisor and by the time I left, the newly hired cashiers weren’t making much less than me. The small raises which the company offered did not keep up with the cost of living and minimum wage increases.

    3. Snargulfuss*

      Oooo I totally get his pain. It’s totally not fair (assuming you have all of the facts) and yet this is one of those things where you can’t really bring up fairness as an argument….unless it’s discrimination, which it doesn’t sound like this is.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I know that the common advice is that you should never compare your salary to others when asking for a raise. However, people here do it all the time and it always, always works. At my last job as well.

  32. Need coffee*

    Just a bit of fun: what are the earliest answers (you can remember) that you gave when asked ‘what do you want to be when you grow up’?

    (Also bonus: does what you do now resemble that in any way?)

    I think for me it was either a doctor or a teacher (both my parents are doctors and used to work in teaching hospitals). Then when I was about 7 I watched Sound of Music for the first time and wanted to become either a governess or a nun.

    (My current job has nothing to do with teaching or convents lol).

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      First answer I had was judge, then naturalist, then minister. But really, the answer always has been and always will be “mermaid.” :P

      1. ermbookworm*

        I wanted to be a vet, then an author, then an author AND a librarian (I think my idea was that being around books all day would inspire my writing). I am now a librarian, though not the kind I imagined as a child. I rarely touch books, and spend most of my time teaching/working with people.

    2. Collie*

      On career day in Kindergarten, I went as a librarian because I loved to read (it was a costume based on stereotypes — tsk, tsk). I then wanted to be a vet. Then a writer. Then an FBI agent (I quickly discovered that meant taking many math classes — no thanks). Then a journalist. I had an epiphany when I was sixteen, sitting in a movie theater watching National Treasure 2. The scene in the Library of Congress kind of bloomed on the screen and it hit me: librarian. I finished my MLIS last month.

      Funny, how that works.

      1. Lillian McGee*

        My first one was librarian too! Because I liked to read :) What I do now is nothing like that (office manager) but when I went to get a paralegal certificate I thought I could maybe work in a law library. Didn’t pan out for me, but I know at least 2 paralegal librarians!

        1. Collie*

          Librarians are cool folks, if I do say so myself. Luckily, I also really enjoy helping people, which is a much bigger part of librarianship than enjoying books (which so many people are surprised to hear)!

          1. Lillian McGee*

            There are tons of librarians in this thread! Man, maybe I really missed my calling…

      2. Dangerfield*

        I wanted to be an FBI agent for a while too! I’m not even a US citizen. That was clearly never going to work.

        (I kind of still do want to be an FBI agent but I think my odds of finding an American, getting married and becoming a citizen before I’m too old are slim. And my long-term boyfriend might not approve ;))

    3. alice*

      I really wanted to be a weather lady on TV. I just thought it was the coolest thing ever from ages four to ten. I have no idea why, as I’ve never known anyone personally who is a meteorologist.

    4. Kristine*

      When I was 3 I told my mom I wanted to work at McDonald’s so I could get free french fries. Ended up working there for a summer when I was in high school!

    5. Felicia*

      Well when I was really little I wanted to be a mermaid. (I never understood why Ariel gave that up!)

      I do remember when I was in grade 3, I wrote for a project that I wanted to be Barbara Walters when I grow up. I am not Barbara Walters, at least not yet :)

      1. TootsNYC*

        My daughter wanted to be a princess for an embarrassingly long time. She wanted to be a clothes seller (work in retail), and a flower lady (she didn’t want to sell them, just have them), and a teacher, and baker, and bookstore lady. All in the same week. Because she wouldn’t have to work on Saturday or Sunday.

    6. all aboard the anon train*

      Archaeologist! Partially because of my huge crush on Harrison Ford, and also because I thought it looked fun. I did end up getting a second BA in Archaeology and I went on some excavations. I sometimes regret not following that career path, but I desperately needed a job when I graduated, so I ended up taking a job that put my English degree to good use.

      Aside from that, I also wanted to be on Broadway, but I have no singing, dancing, or acting talent, so I have to content myself with watching shows instead.

      1. themmases*

        Me too! I wanted to be an Egyptologist specifically– I was obsessed with ancient Egypt as a child. Oddly for a kid who wanted top be an archaeologist, I never saw Indiana Jones.

      2. Witty Nickname*

        I went through an archaeology phase too. And I’m still convinced that if I could only sing, dance or act, I’d be the biggest star on Broadway! Instead, I star in Hamilton in my car.

        In college, I majored in government and thought about going to grad school for public policy, but decided ultimately that a career in politics was not for me. I work in marketing as a program manager now, so instead of spinning policy arguments and ruling the world, I help craft marketing campaigns and rule my project teams. ;)

        1. all aboard the anon train*

          I did briefly consider majoring in Poli Sci because I had a pretty intense West Wing phase, but I quickly realized I’d have no patience to actually deal with any of that.

      3. Al Lo*

        In kindergarten, I wanted to be a paleontologist, because I could spell it. But then I decided that I didn’t really want to do that, because when I had kids, going on digs would mean being away.

        Forget the fact that math and science aren’t my strong suits. Or that I don’t have kids. (Yet? Maybe?)

    7. F.*

      When I was in kindergarten, it was Teacher (Miss Bogle was sooooo nice!). By age 12 it was Meteorologist at the Severe Storms Forecast Center in Norman, Oklahoma. I held on to that through college, but, since the university where I received a full scholarship did not have the program, I earned a Math degree instead, thinking that I could then go to the University of Oklahoma, where they do have the program. However………life intervened. By the time I graduated from college, I had a full time bookeeping job, could not afford out-of-state tuition at OU, and never did get that Meteorology degree. Oh well, maybe in the next life…

      1. mike 2*

        I was adamant I was becoming a heart surgeon (age 9, female, fascinated by surgeries and blood). Some time later I changed that decision to the one of a librarian. And stuck to it.

    9. ginger ale for all*

      I wanted to be Bob Newhart. Either him or the role he played on the Bob Newhart Show. I am still a big fan of his. He is one of the greats. I don’t have a job like either of those but I do like to tell stories every once in a while.

      1. ginger ale for all*

        Oh – I ended up in libraries. My great grandmother predicted I would so that is pretty interesting.

    10. Lore*

      I don’t actually remember this myself, but my parents swear up and down that when I was about four, I used to answer “An astronaut or a cocktail waitress.” Astronaut, I get. But I don’t know even know how I knew what a cocktail waitress was.

      I work in book publishing and theater. Sometimes I still wish I’d gone for “astronaut” but I think I reached the apex of my math skills with basic calculus.

      1. SophieChotek*

        book publishing and theater? Two separate jobs? Or a publisher that writes about books. I think they both sound interesting!

        1. Lore*

          Two separate things, though if we do publish performing arts related titles I usually get to work on them. It’s pretty rare though. Unlike my coworkers who want all the sports books or all the cookbooks.

    11. Ex FL Anon*

      In elementary school, I wanted to be a marine biologist and work at Sea World. Yeah, I’m an office manager now, no where close to working with dolphins. :(

      1. Random Citizen*

        I went to Sea World when I was five and saw Shamu live, and wanted to be a trainer for a long time afterwards. It was amazing – but always the whales. There was something about that much power controlled and directed that just fascinated me.

    12. GiggleFits*

      Prima Ballerina, then novelist, then journalist, then forensic scientists, then research scientist, then genetic counselor, and now I’m a medical librarian!

    13. Charlotte Collins*

      Veterinarian (then I realized that putting animals to sleep would be a job requirement) or Wonder Woman. Or Cinderella. (The Prince wasn’t that big a deal, but I’d really like some talking mice.)

    14. rozin*

      For a very long time I wanted to be a veterinarian. Till my dad took me to an “open house” at one of the nearby vet schools and I saw them performing surgery. And I had a major issue with blood and guts, so that was a big pile of NOPE. After giving that up I wanted to be an animator at Disney (since I loved their movies), until I realized that animation is REALLY hard. Now I’m a video editor/motion graphics person, so there’s still a little bit of relation to the animation dream.

    15. Nethwen*

      Classical music performer/teacher. By the time I reached high school, I knew that was unlikely, but kept saying it. Now I work as a public librarian – a great job for people who are interested in “everything.”

    16. Alston*

      I wanted to be a Horse Girl. Not a Cow Girl, but a Horse Girl.

      Then I wanted to be an archaeologist, then an astronaut, then a writer, then a filmmaker. Now I’m working on becoming a woodworker.

    17. Mockingjay*

      Astronaut.

      It was the 1960’s – space race. My Dad worked near the Goddard Space Center. He used to stop by and pick up all this stuff for me – posters, booklets, pictures of the astronauts, etc. They gave away tons of really cool, informative items. We even had astronauts visit my elementary school once.

      I still love all things space.

    18. Karo*

      I wanted to be a flying elephant. When I found out that elephants couldn’t fly, I wanted to be a mommy bird. When I was then told I couldn’t change species (I don’t know why they didn’t address this with the elephant thing), I decided I wanted to be a mommy pilot.

      I now do content marketing. So…nowhere near, I’d say.

    19. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      Actress was probably my first answer (and now that thought horrifies me). In high school, I wanted to be a french professor or an interpreter for the UN. I also wanted to be a dermatologist, pharmacist or lawyer.

      I do not do any of these things.

      1. Random Citizen*

        Ooh, very cool! My cousin is a french interpreter for the FBI, so you could have done that. ;)

    21. LizB*

      I dressed up as an artist for my preschool’s career day, complete with beret, paint-splattered smock, and an easel with a painting that I remember painting in my garage. I also vividly remember someone asking me if it was a flower, and replying very indignantly that no, it was a person! It did not look anything like a person. It didn’t look much like a flower either, but that was a more reasonable guess. My art skills haven’t progressed much since then, so no, that’s not my actual career. :)

    22. Anlyn*

      Artist. I held on to that until I reached 7th grade, and unfortunately could only take one extra-curricular class, and had to choose between art and music. Went with music and never regretted it, though I’m not in any type of music industry (I’m in IT). I have played around with the idea of going to community college and taking some art classes, but I don’t know that I want to do a full degree.

    23. IT_Guy*

      I wanted to be a marine archaeologist when I was a kid and now I’m a database administrator.

    24. matcha123*

      I wasn’t asked this question often, and when I was my mom was there, so I wanted to make sure I gave an answer that made her look good (ie- doctor).

    25. Shayland (ActualName)*

      When I was super little my responce would change everyday. My mom asked me often because she liked to hear what I’d come up with this time. When I was three of four I told her “I want to be an artist” and the never changed my mind again. So I can’t remember the first time I was ever asked, but I know that’s been my answer for longer than I can remember.

      I’m in art school now. But I also do a lot of writing an motivational speaking.

    26. Former Retail Manager*

      As a child, I wanted to be a child psychologist. I never pursued it beyond childhood. I don’t really like children and I don’t like listening to people whine about their problems, child or adult. So no…..what I do now does not resemble that in any way. However, I remain insanely interested in human behavior and why we do what we do.

    27. Snargulfuss*

      I played school everyday after school for YEARS, but oddly enough I never said I wanted to be a teacher. I said chef, fashion designer, graphic designer.

    28. Tau*

      The earliest I can remember is astronomer. I gave up on it because someone told me it involved a lot of maths, which is in retrospect hilarious. Then came entomologist, where I reconsidered after a few years because I didn’t want to have to kill insects. (Also kind of hilarious). Then botanist, then mathematician – where it stayed at until partway through my PhD, when I realised that I would be absolutely miserable as an academic!

      I’m now a software developer, so related I guess? I didn’t end up with any of my early careers and didn’t end up in academia, but I definitely stayed in STEM!

    29. Ang theSA*

      I was asked this in a classroom at kindergarten before graduation (probably the best idea). My dad had let me watch Goodfellas with him the night before. (he edited it so I didn’t see the gruesome parts). I told the teacher I wanted to be a mob boss.

      Needless to say, I was not asked at graduation what I wanted to be when I grew up.

      A few years later, I wanted to be an astronaut after going to space camp, until I realized that I would need to take alot of math classes.

      Now I am in accounting.

    30. purpleparrots*

      My mom has a drawing I made in preschool that says “I want to be a judge so I can tell people what to do and they have to do it.” I’m a practicing attorney now, so who knows where I’ll end up someday.

    31. BananaKarenina*

      When I was in Kindergarten, I wanted to be a flight attendant (back then, the women were known as “Stewardesses”). After my parents’ divorce, my mom and I moved to California, and I had to fly to Florida every summer as part of my dad’s custody rights. I loved how the flight attendants looked after me and gave me games to play on the plane.

      In high school, I wanted to become a journalist – I second the Barbara Walters dream. Now, I just look at high school essays (when the kids actually decide to turn them in), and sob in my coffee.

    32. Emilia Bedelia*

      Firefighter. marine biologist. Architect (I liked Legos) Then I went to engineering school. Then I got into regulatory. So…. Not anything like my childhood dreams. But I still do like Legos :)

    33. Nerdling*

      At first it was a paleontologist because I was obsessed with dinosaurs. Eventually it became lawyer, then athletic trainer, then actress for a fleeting second. My current job never even pinged my radar, honestly.

    35. Turtle Candle*

      Ballerina, followed closely by doctor and teacher. I remember being, oh… four, maybe, and asking my mother if you could be simultaneously a doctor and a ballerina and a teacher, because I didn’t want to have to pick. “It would be pretty difficult” was her diplomatic answer.

      1. CheeryO*

        I just commented below that I wanted to be a ballerina-slash-astronaut around that age! I don’t remember what my mom said at the time, but we still joke about it from time to time.

      3. Witty Nickname*

        My 7 year old has decided he is going to be an astrophysicist….after he is done being a video game designer for Nintendo. At least he doesn’t want to do them at the same time!

    36. SophieChotek*

      I wanted to be a princess. (This was before the Disney Princess rage).
      Or a knight.
      Neither are very practical. (And I don’t think I understood lines of succession and royal family and geneology very well. Obviously.)

      My Mom says I played at being a minister and baptizing baby cousins a lot and leading midnight Christmas services. Don’t quite recall these.

      Then I wanted to be a historian/professor of history.

      When I was in grad school studying history, I wished I was studying medicine.

      I am doing none of the above. Sadly.

    37. fposte*

      A horse. The qualifications proved an insuperable barrier.

      My current job doesn’t resemble being a horse.

    38. CheeryO*

      Ballerina/astronaut, then teacher once I was a little older. I wouldn’t be very good at teaching, and I’ve never taken a single dance class, but I still feel a little sad now and then that I’m not an astronaut!

    39. zd*

      Ha, lots of your lists look really familiar… Except I wanted to be a: Broadway actor, ballerina, teacher, archaeologist, librarian, journalist(foreign correspondent) … ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Seriously, I thought it was possible to be all those things at once, I was super serious for years, and wouldn’t agree to give up even one of them.

      2. elle j.*

        That was me! I want to be a marine biologist, race car driver, ballerina, writer, and a game show host.

        I work in government now.

    40. straws*

      Lumberjack. Or, more specifically, “a man who cuts down trees” (I’m female). Surprisingly, I’m not in the wood chopping industry. :P

    41. overeducated*

      I think my earliest memories are of wanting to be a writer or a swimming teacher. (I didn’t realize that my swimming teachers were mostly members of the high school swim team who lifeguarded and taught lessons on the weekends.)

      I was on the swim team for one season but just didn’t like organized sports very much, I preferred unstructured free time. So I never became a swimming teacher. My first decade out of college did involve some work outside, and some work related to boats, so at least I had the physical activity and water thing going?

      As for writing, I don’t write fiction, which was my childhood dream, but I’ve done a lot of academic writing and am transitioning to a career involving translating research for broader audiences. It’s still communication-based, at least.

    42. Sunflower*

      I wanted to be a talk show host- like Jenny Jones style. I was so terrified of tornados so I wanted to be a meterologist for a while so I could predict when they occured and I could be safe from them. I grew up in Philadelphia FYI.

      I am an event planner and I think I would still love to be either of those things

    43. anon for this*

      I really really wanted to be a veterinarian. Until the first biology dissection and then I change my mind extremely quickly. Now I work as a very specialized content moderator. We do wonderful things, but I see porn every single day. That was certainly never on my extremely sheltered junior high mind on Career Day.

    44. GigglyPuff*

      When I was really little I used to want to me a masseuse cause my parents told me I gave the best back scratches! Lol
      Later I thought editor (which would have just never happened, my grammar is atrocious). Then I seriously contemplated web design, settled on librarian. Combined both and work in digital services, including working on the website.

    45. Applesauced*

      Julia Child – not a chef, but I wanted to do EXACTLY what she did (I even asked my mom to make some super fancy French dessert I saw on the show for my 5th birthday.)
      I am an architect. But I am the resident birthday cake maker for my friend group!

      1. JaneB*

        Tractor, then dinosaur, then explorer, then Eccentric… I really thought that was a proper job, being eccentric!

    46. Aardvark*

      A helicopter. First attainable-by-a-human career goal: Doctor. (I work in IT and have never gone anywhere near medicine or flying career-wise…)

    47. Ashley*

      Mermaid, author, ballerina, teacher, librarian…I like reading a lot!

      I’ll be starting my first teaching job in August!

    48. AnotherAlison*

      I have an “All About Me” book from when I was 4, and I said I wanted to be a veterinarian and mommy. I liked to play with my stuffed animals, so that was where the vet thing came from (plus one of my uncles is one). I outgrew that pretty quickly. I have dogs, but I’m not a big animal person. But, the talking to myself while playing with the stuffed animals was a good indicator of my life path. I still like to hang out by myself and talk to myself (in my head now).

    49. Brett*

      Ornithologist

      I wanted to be one since I was about 6, and when I was 17 I landed a summer job in an ornithology lab at UC Davis.

      The director of that program referred me to, of all things, a program in sea ice research at Dartmouth for my senior year, which led to another position in a polar research lab specializing in scombroid population genetics my freshman through junior years of college, which led to a position in tuna ecology including fish tracking after I dropped out of college, which led to an interest in geography when I returned to college (8 years of fast food and temp work later).

      And now today I’m a geographer.

      Meanwhile, all of my old elementary teachers that I am still in touch with mention that I was obsessed with maps when I was in elementary school and that they are completely unsurprised that I became a geographer.

      1. Overeducated*

        Coooooooooooooooooool.

        (I guess I still want to be a geographer. But I didn’t really learn what geography means in the modern world [as opposed to in Lewis and Clark’s day] until midway through grad school, so it was a little late on that front.)

    50. Chicken Little*

      A nurse, an astronaut, a superhero (dream big, folks!). Became a librarian (also fun).

    52. QualityControlFreak*

      Stunt person, space explorer, vet and psychologist. No resemblance to what I do now.

    53. Random Citizen*

      Killer whale trainer until I was about ten, because they were huge, and powerful, and I wanted one to jump over my head and listen to every word I said. Then I didn’t know for a long time. When I was in high school, I loved speaking and wanted to be a lawyer. After following politics for a long time, a big political year while I was in college made my want to run for office, but I could never decide if I really wanted to be in a legislature or wherever, or if I just wanted to give inspiring speeches in beautiful, historic buildings. Never really did figure that out. :)

      1. Random Citizen*

        Ooh, and I wanted to be an astrophysicist for a while, too, because it sounded impressive and space was COOL!

    56. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      For years and years, it was a fashion designer. I used to watch the catwalk shows on the old Style channel maybe…15 years ago? I loved them!

      But it’s not a stable industry, unfortunately…

      And I can’t draw…at all. Not even remotely. So, that put a damper on those plans ;)

    57. Elizabeth West*

      Everything I wanted to be had something to do with performing or creativity, except one. Guess which!

      –Actor (I wanted to win an Oscar, a Tony, and an Emmy. This will not happen, LOL.)
      –Singer (I was actually good at this and went on to study opera for four years at college)
      –Radio DJ (I used to practice in my room–I could change a record really fast!)
      –An actor on the radio
      –A skater in the Ice Capades
      –Forensic pathologist (thanks to the TV show Quincy, M.E.)
      –Writer (I started writing stories in fifth grade and wrote scripts for my radio crap. Wrote in college. Then I quit for a long time and started writing seriously again in 2007 or so.)
      –A wife and mother (not a job but something I always wanted)

      I don’t have a different career–I only have a job. But I’m still trying to be a published novelist. I could still win an Oscar someday, for a screenplay! Since childhood, I have known exactly what I’m going to wear if I do. It will be red, and it will be sparkly. :)

      We won’t talk about the last one. :(

    59. LCL*

      Little kid-astronaut.
      Older kid-rock star. I was taking music lessons.
      Insufferable junior high school brat, still taking music lessons-rock star. Or revolutionary. Or lawyer, whose mission would be to force companies to sell cute clothes for women in larger sizes.
      High school, still playing music-rock star. Electrician if the rock star thing fell through.
      Post high school-decided I had no future in music. Thought I would make a good cop, got on a couple agencies hiring lists. Got on the waiting list to take electrical studies classes. Wrote bad horror fiction on the side.
      Mid twenties- the electrician thing happened before law enforcement called me back. Still work in the electric field (that’s a small joke.). Wanted to do more school and specialize in labor law but shift work killed that dream dead. Learned how to brew beer.
      Mid forties- taking music lessons again.
      Now-still in the electric biz, still taking music lessons, write a song once in awhile. Taking a business class this summer, maybe the beer thing will take off if I can get smarter.

    60. Kate*

      Well, my mom let me watch Pretty Woman when I was a kid, and I didn’t know exactly what Julia Roberts’ character did. I just saw that she did lots of shopping and dining and flying on planes to go to the opera, and got paid for it. So I told my mom that’s what I wanted to be when I grew up. I still take quite a bit of ribbing about this.
      My next career choice was journalist, but only because it sounded interesting. Now I am a nurse, so I’ve veered pretty far from my original aspirations.

    61. CM*

      Garbage man, because I wanted to ride on the truck! (I can’t be the only one?) That one lasted a long time.
      Then a teacher, because as a kid I was exposed to so few professions, but I always had teachers. Later on I tried it out, teaching at a summer program, and realized it was not for me.
      Then a writer, because I loved writing.
      Now I’m a lawyer but writing a book is still on my bucket list.

    62. Christopher Tracy*

      I wanted to be an actress, singer, and writer. Two of those things are my side gig (if I get cast in a musical, I’ll be three for three).

    63. Nye*

      I wanted to be a conchologist at age 5. (I was a nerdy kid with a shell collection.) I’m now a marine biologist. I feel like 5-year-old me would find that acceptable.

  33. Arts Marketing Assistant*

    After the pretty v professional clothing debate recently, I wanted to get a steer on this style of dress, with tights/blazer/dark cardi. It certainly fits in the level of formality at my work place, but I wondered whether it’s a style I should avoid as I look to move up in my career. Thoughts appreciated!

    http://www.houseoffraser.co.uk/Mela+Loves+London+Floral+Print+Occasion+Dress/239941829,default,pd.html

    http://www.houseoffraser.co.uk/Mela+Loves+London+Floral+and+Butterfly+Print+Dress/239941887,default,pd.html

    I really struggle with personal style, especially in a casual workplace. I work in a fairly creative industry but I’m not particularly fashionable and I really want to learn how to strike the right balance for work!

    1. ThatGirl*

      I feel like with a cardigan or blazer, as long as it hits at the knee or a bit lower, you’d be fine. But I am not a fashionista.

    2. SJ*

      For some reason, full/A-line dresses and skirts always come off a bit younger and less professional than straight/sheath styles. Which is super annoying, since this style works way better on any number of different body types. I think if you’re nervous about going A-line, you can play it safer by getting dresses in more conservative colors and prints, like solid black, red, blue, herringbone, etc. The floral print makes them look more casual and more party-dress-like. And I think fabric matters too. The lighter chiffon sorts of fabrics don’t come across as professional as solid cotton or wool or what have you.

      That said, these dresses would work perfectly well in my environment (higher ed), particularly when paired with professional pieces like a blazer and heels.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Totally agree. I think the fullness of the skirt will make it too casual for particularly conservative/formal environments, but in more casual offices it would be fine.

      2. Turanga Leela*

        Echoing that fabric matters: solid-color wool and certain knits will come across as more formal. I’m having trouble finding a lot of great examples, but I’ve previously found very professional-looking fit-and-flare dresses from department stores and Ann Taylor. For instance, depending on how the fabric looks in person, something like this could go under a blazer and look extremely professional—not quite as formal as a suit, but formal enough for most offices. http://www.anntaylor.com/swaying-flare-dress/404060

        That said, I really like the dresses you’ve picked out, and there are plenty of offices (including mine) where they would be entirely appropriate.

      5. Cassie*

        I just came to this realization too, after that pretty vs professional post. There are a couple of older women in my office who wear fit and flare dresses like this (without cardigans) and it feels very “young” to me. I’m in an academic dept at a university, so pretty much anything goes (business casual is rare; most of its just plain casual) but it feels more like Donna Moss than CJ Cregg.

        (My memory fails to serve me well – apparently Donna didn’t wear fit and flare dresses; more cardigans / sheath dresses / button-down dress shirts. But her clothes signified that she was clearly “just” an assistant, while CJ was clearly not “just” an assistant).

      6. Christopher Tracy*

        I think if you’re nervous about going A-line, you can play it safer by getting dresses in more conservative colors and prints, like solid black, red, blue, herringbone, etc. The floral print makes them look more casual and more party-dress-like. And I think fabric matters too. The lighter chiffon sorts of fabrics don’t come across as professional as solid cotton or wool or what have you.

        All of this, but especially the thing about the prints and type of fabric. The busy prints are very garden party, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing – I’ve seen executive-level women at my company wearing stuff like this in the spring and summer with blazers or cardigans. But my workplace, though in the financial services sector, is also business casual. In a business formal environment, garden party is probably not a look you should be going for.

        OP, if you like fit and flare dresses or A-line skirts, I highly recommend Closet London. You can find some of their stuff on ModCloth, but I like browsing their website to see their newer pieces.

    3. GiggleFits*

      I think that for most business casual places that would be fine, assuming they hit reasonably close to the knee. Maybe not quite formal enough for interviews (although depending on your industry I could be wrong), but I work at a university and no one would think twice about that kind of outfit, especially as the colors are fairly muted and less “young” looking.

    4. Megs*

      I’d wear it with a cardigan or other type of shrug in a heartbeat, even in a pretty conservative office/profession. I think the black background cancels out any “frivolousness” in the pattern.

      1. J.B.*

        Yes. I noticed when I went to lunch somewhere filled with men in suits (and it’s hot out!), women were wearing either suits or A-line dresses. I wouldn’t have the uncovered shoulders all day but with something else on top when you’re in a meeting, fine.

    5. themmases*

      I like both of those. I’d just wear a blazer over them for day to day if you’re worried.

      Cardigan could work too but for some reason that outfit says either “cute girl in casual office” or “Mother’s Day” to me. It reminds me of someone’s comment from that thread about there being more styles of adult clothing than fancy and not-fancy. I’m not expressing myself well but I often wear a dress like that with a cardigan and feel pretty yet not quite right. (I work in a very casual academic environment also).

      I still wear a similar outfit all the time though.

    6. Blue Anne*

      That’s exactly how I dressed at my Big 4 audit job in Scotland and it was totally in line with the norms there. Environment was on the businessy end of business casual, we wore full suits on the first day at a new client site, then defaulted back to this kind of thing unless it turned out the client was super starched and polished. So if you’re in the UK (which I’m assuming from House of Fraser) it’s probably not going to hold you back, especially in a creative industry!

    7. Nerdling*

      I love them both and would absolutely rock them with a cardigan or blazer. The skirts don’t look very full to me – they just don’t look fitted the way a pencil skirt would be. Which is great, because not everyone wants to wear pencil skirts or closer-fitted skirts. I wore very similarly-cut skirts twice this week with shells and blazers.

    8. Laura*

      I work in a business-casual office and that would be fine. It’s extremely hot here, so sleeveless dresses/tops are perfectly acceptable, but I always have a cardigan on-hand for cold meeting rooms, professional visits, etc. Those are awfully cute dresses!

    9. CMT*

      I’d say *maybe* with a blazer, but to me they read as party or social gathering attire, not professional/work place attire.

      1. ace*

        Ditto. As someone who worked in a law firm for 10 years, those still look a bit young & casual. I look back to my young lawyer/summer associate days and cringe thinking of the times I work clearly “going out” or “summer wedding guest” styles dresses with a blazer over them, as if that magically turned them into appropriate work dresses! These are both lovely dresses that might be better suited for social events.

  34. LawCat*

    I had an interview yesterday (Job #1) that went well and the interviewer said they would be calling early next week to set up a second interview for late next week. Job #2 sounds really interesting and it could be a great opportunity, but I have some concerns. I would be wearing a couple different hats and have two different supervisors so I want to get more details on how they coordinate assignments (I don’t want to be one person doing the volume of work of two people).

    Meanwhile, I got a call this week from Job #2 (dream job) and I have a first round interview mid-week next week. After that, I’m on vacation for two weeks. We’ll see how Job #2 interview goes. I’m sure they’ll be doing more than one round. Not sure what I’ll do yet if Job #1 makes an offer during that time. I will be unreachable a little more than half of the vacation, but then should have smartphone access during the second half.

    Any ideas on juggling things in such a scenario?

      1. Elizabeth*

        I definitely think you should let both of them know very clearly that you will be off the grid from xx to yy, and that you won’t see any messages. Otherwise, as an employer, if you didn’t get back to me within a day or two, I’d assume that you weren’t interested.

  35. My name's liarface and I care what you think*

    I am looking to leave the private sector to become a teacher. I unfortunately began looking into fellowship programs in my city a little too late, so I’m applying for programs that begin in September 2017. My intention was to stay at my current job until then. However, there has been a management shake up in my department that involved a lot of ugly office politics. Things have gotten real toxic real fast and I want out ASAP.

    Next week I am interviewing for an administrative position at a nonprofit that works directly with children in the community. The role is technically a step down from where I am now, but I’m ok with that because I would get first-hand experience working with children and would get insight into the educational needs of the community. However, I’m wondering if it’s dishonest of me to apply for this job knowing that I would be there only a little over a year. My justification is that it’s a lower paid, lower level admin position that probably receives a good deal of turnover anyway (this has been my experience at all my past companies). This nonprofit is also big on giving back to the community, so I get the sense they wouldn’t be too upset if I left to teach in an urban school. But I still can’t shake the feeling that I’d be going into this interview essentially lying to their face about my commitment to the job, even though I would give it my all while I was there. I really like this nonprofit’s mission and programs.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Since you haven’t actually been accepted to a teaching program yet, I think it’s probably fine. I’ve worked in nonprofits that deal with children and you’re right that those have relatively higher turnover than other non profit positions.

      I think that if you had a hard deadline of when you would be working there (or would only be working there a few months), you’d be obligated to tell them. But you don’t, so I think you can move through that process pretty guilt free.

      1. My name's liarface and I care what you think*

        I did apply, and my interview is next week. That’s why I’m worried.

    3. MM*

      1. You don’t know for certain that you will only be there for 1 year. A lot can happen in that time.
      2. They will ask you why you are interested in working there and I think telling them I’m interested in becoming a teacher and want to learn more might even make you a more attractive candidate.

    4. themmases*

      I was in a very similar situation a few years ago– I barely missed the boat to apply to grad school and ended up looking at programs more than a year out. My horrible situation change happened in February causing me to move up my grad school plan, and applications has just closed in January.

      I applied to jobs anyway but just was honest with them. There are plenty of jobs where people are expected to move on in a year or two– many of them are lower level admin jobs adjacent to a profession like what you describe. I think you do need to be honest with them. Not only is it the right thing to do, it sounds like they overlap enough with your career goals that you want to be on your best behavior. Your planned stay might not even be that much shorter than average and if they are getting someone overqualified then they could be OK with it.

  36. Concerned*

    So, I just learned that Toxie, who I fired late last year, is the finalist for a similar position at a local university. Knowing how both A) a lot of universities don’t do proper HR verification checks, and B) one of Toxie’s many fun traits was dishonesty, I have no reason to think they’ll know she was fired, or why.

    On the one hand, I know it’s Not My Workplace, thus Not My Problem.. But on the other, these are colleagues of ours in a reasonably small field, and I’m wondering if I have any ethical responsibilities to contact them to let them know. Everything that made Toxie a horrible fit here will apply there, and given the nature of the field, it also means we might very well see Toxie at local industry events (which no one here wants). Has anyone had any experience with reaching out to HR or hiring managers about a potential bad seed?

    1. ginger ale for all*

      I would leave it alone.

      I think that if the community is as small as you think it is, people will know this person’s reputation and you will get a reputation as a nosy busybody. Think of it, what would you think if you got a call out of the blue from someone to tell you past dirt on someone because they had heard that the person from the past was interviewing there?

    2. LotusEclair1984*

      That sounds like vengeance. Plus, it could potentially lead to a defamation lawsuit. You’ve already fired the person. Both of you should move onward and upward.

    3. Seal*

      Earlier this year I had a similar situation: a bad staff member who almost got fired and then left to go to grad school got a job at one of our university’s coordinate campuses. As she didn’t list me or anyone here as a reference for obvious reasons, my staff and I were stunned. Since HR here requires that former staff members indicate where they worked on their application, the people who hired her must have known that she worked for me and my department. And since we’re fairly high-profile at our university, not listing anyone from our department as a reference should have been a HUGE red flag for the hiring manager. And yet she still managed to get the job.

      Interestingly, the coordinate campus arranged to have the former staff member train with another department in our library. So I was at least able to warn that department head – a long-time colleague – about this woman. I’d like to think my former staff member has turned things around for herself, but time will tell. At this point it’s not my problem, although it’s certainly a cautionary tale.

    4. Temperance*

      I do not recommend this. At all. Not your circus, not your monkeys.

      This is an employment law minefield. I know you have good intentions, but you need to look out for yourself first. You don’t want to get sued for defamation or tortious interference.

      1. Concerned*

        Thanks, all —
        I think I knew this intellectually, but hearing it helps me not succumb to temptation. I’ll leave it alone.

    5. Lia*

      I did this, and they hired him anyways (he had a long track record of both severe incompetence and harassment of staff). Last I heard, he was running that place into the ground too and it seems the harassment continued.

      They did wind up firing the guy who was responsible for his hire, just like they did at his previous employer.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I was in a similar position once and although I warned the HR department about a potential new hire who had problems in his previous job, they hired him any way.

      And it turned out well. Whatever problems he had in the past, stayed there, and he was fairly rapidly promoted to a leadership position. (He did have some education and professional credentials, not necessary in his previous troubled job, that greatly helped him in getting the promotion.) I now feel embarrassed about saying anything and I regret sticking my nose in it.

  37. Dave*

    I lost my job yesterday. “Restructuring.” Still trying to sort it out in my head. My team was eliminated. One guy apparently is still there. Another was transferred to another department. A third was offered a temporary assignment. Me and one other were let go altogether. Not sure why–I was the top performer in the team and was told two weeks ago that they were looking to expand my role–unless that it was because I had the highest salary.

    Still turning this over in my head. I have been offered a paltry severance (one paycheque) but haven’t signed anything. It’s especially galling as I was aggressively recruited for this position and left a stable position for this one, not long after being promoted.

    I’ve received a lot of kind emails from former co-workers but right now I am trying to figure out how to get an income again. We just bought a new house.

    1. some1*

      I’ve been there, and I’m so sorry to hear this. Here’s hoping you land somewhere even better, and quickly.

    3. Megs*

      That is really rough. I suspect you may be right about the “highest paycheck, first out” motivation. I hope you find something soon!

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If it was relatively recently that you left a stable position for this one, I might use that to try to guilt them into more severance….

      1. Dave*

        It was about a year ago. It wasn’t their formal recruiting team, but two managers I knew in the department. I still had to go through the HR processes but they made it clear throughout that I had the job if I wanted it and even gave me the very top of the salary range I named.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          I think a year is pretty recent. I mean, if the restructuring was for financial reasons, they had to have known about the possibility of the restructure for a while and shouldn’t have aggressively recruited anyone into that department, especially not someone who was already gainfully employed. I’d try to negotiate more severance if I were you.

    6. Triangle Pose*

      Were you heavily recruited by an internal recruiter or an outside recruiter? If outside, I’d call them right now and let them know what happened and ask them to reach out to their clients in your industry on your behalf. If it was an internal recruiter, in addition to guilting them into more severance (or if you are unsuccessful in that regard), can you lean on the recruiting team to reach out into their network for you? Highlight that you were heavily pursued and a top performer and that they should really help you!

      1. Dave*

        It wasn’t HR’s recruiters, but two managers within the department. I was made to go through their usual hiring process but it was made clear throughout that the job was mine if I wanted it.

  38. Master Bean Counter*

    WWYD

    What would you do, here are two choices:

    Choice one:
    You started a well paying job near the first of the year. Training is lagging because the person whom you are replacing is liking working from home and resisting actually going into retirement. She says she’ll show you how to do things, but does them herself and never gives you instructions. But the plan is she’ll be completely gone in a year. You know you can figure everything out when she is gone, but wonder how long that will be. You can decide to stick this out because the potential to move up in the company looks good. And you can save up lots of money for an early retirement.

    Choice two:
    You find an add where you are the unique unicorn that is described. This position could give you the management experience that has held you back so far in your career. They are valuing technical skills over actual management experience due to the nature of the position. This position may not pay as well as your current position, but the retirement is nicer. You are 20-25 years away from retirement. This position is also with a non-profit organization that has a mission close to your heart.

    Would you even consider applying for choice #2?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I think that’s something you need to weigh compared to the rest of your resume/your current situation.

      Do you think that choice 1 will get better anytime soon? Do you have lots of short term stays on your resume?
      If yes to both, I would definitely stay to avoid damaging your reputation and being labeled a job hopper. But if you’ve had multiple longer term stays and things aren’t looking up at current job, sure I would apply.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        Recent work history looks like this:
        Current job-6 months
        Last job-2 years 8 months
        Job before that-7 years 2 months of work very similar to choice #2

        Choice number one should look up in 6-12 months. Faster if my current boss leaves, as he’s the one pulling the person I’m replacing back in. My grand-boss is more willing to let me learn, and add my own way of doing things to the job. Basically he trusts my instincts where my current boss just doesn’t seem interested in changing any thing at all.
        And honestly I wouldn’t even consider #2 if I didn’t hit every check box on the ad.

        1. Leatherwings*

          I would go ahead and apply then. You don’t have to take it if offered. Six months is a long time to wait to be trained. Hopefully it will get better at current job but since you like this other opportunity you can try for it.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’d apply for #2 and see a) if the interview turned up anything that the ad was hiding, and b) if they could be flexible on the pay at all. But given how bad leaving a job after 6 months can look, I wouldn’t make the jump from #1 unless the revealed details for #2 kept it looking just as shiny as it does from the ad.

    3. Dangerfield*

      There’s no harm in applying for it, but personally I would probably prioritise the money over the rest of it.

    4. NacSacJack*

      Regarding #1 – I’d be talking with your mutual manager. I’d almost think they’d be requesting he or she work in the office on a daily basis until retirement – no WFH.

      #2 If it is your dream job and you haven’t been job hopping and its obvious your predecessor isn’t going to train you, I’d try for job #2 now. IF (Big IF) you get offered the job, you’ll have worked some place more than 6 months and can simply say my predecessor decided not to leave and at the same time give your current workplace enough time to find your replacement before your predecessor does retire.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        The person I’m replacing was out of the office and moving before I started. There’s no bringing her back in now.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have you talked to your manager about the coworker not showing you how to do anything? That’s step one here.

      You are very unlikely to stay with that second job until retirement.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        I have talked to him about it. The answer is, “I’m sure she’ll show you X soon.” He’s a really odd guy. I really don’t think I am the person he wanted to hire. But I mesh really well with his boss. I’m sure working with him will become easier in time. I’ve worked successfully with way more difficult people. Long term this is yet another technical job where I will be the only person doing what I’m doing and I’ll likely never move up to management.

        Your comment on the second job, that’s an eye opener, because I’m likely not to stay at either job until retirement. But #2 is my best shot at getting the experience I need to move to the next level.

        But then I really worry about leaving the current job after such a short stay. But if it were any other position I’d pass.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Oh, I think you should apply to the second job and see what happens — I just meant not to factor in “the retirement is nicer” into the decision.

          1. Master Bean Counter*

            After all of this I’m thinking there’s no harm in applying.

            But the guilt over potentially burning a bridge kills me. Just thinking about making a move like this is so not me. Then again, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

  39. Christopher Tracy*

    I just found out yesterday that my previous division is not only more dysfunctional than I thought, but they’re also doing something illegal. For those of you who read about my saga when I was posting under the name Doriana Gray, I was in a rather toxic environment in my last job, which was in the current company I work for now. My company has about 34 different divisions, so I was able to transfer to a better one with a promotion and raise in January.

    Well, one of my former colleagues who is an hourly employee stopped me in the hall yesterday and asked if I had spoken to someone in HR before I left about the bull that was going on in our division. I didn’t, I spoke to my former manager in our corporate office who helped facilitate my transfer. I told former colleague this, and also that another one of my old teammates spoke to someone in HR, and told her maybe she should ask said coworker who she spoke to. Former colleague told me that she needs to get out of that division ASAP (she hasn’t been there two years yet) because the shit is beginning to hit the fan. One of the managers there who used to be bullied something awful by my former manager (the one who was eventually demoted after I left) apparently was promoted up to a director level and has been nitpicking everything my former colleague has been doing and running to her boss complaining about her. It’s gotten to the point where former colleague’s boss, the Sr. VP of the division, has begun shutting her out and only speaking to her when absolutely necessary, which is awkward because she’s his admin. What’s even more awkward is that she’s won awards for being “most helpful” and generally awesome at her job, so I was very surprised when she told me the past 6-8 months have been hell for her.

    Well, newly promoted director has begun harping on people’s hours and trying to enact super strict schedules for everyone under her that didn’t exist while I was there. As one of the few hourly employees in that division who doesn’t already report to the new director, my former colleague is afraid the director will go to the Sr. VP and ask to have former colleague moved under her so that she can continue belittling her and her work. I asked if she talked to her current boss about what’s happening, and she said she did, but he blows her off. She said he also took her to lunch and told her that he knows she wants a promotion, but he just doesn’t think he can give it to her – never mind the fact that they just promoted hella people before I left, and a few more after I left as well. And some of the people promoted did not do nearly as much as former colleague did, but whatever. She could have dealt with that, but what she said is really bothering her is, he’s now having her work on weekends running errands for him and she’s not being paid OT for it.

    Again – she’s not salaried. She’s not an Executive Assistant, but she’s being treated like one without getting the benefits of it. Then she said they’re also giving her grief when she comes in at 8:33 instead of 8:30 because, “you need to be at your desk and ready to work at 8:30,” but yet they’re not so concerned about having her work when she shouldn’t be and for free no less. Now, our SVP knows better than this. He’s been at this company long enough, and has been at the executive level long enough, to know how non-exempt hourly works. I told former colleague she can talk to HR (and should), but he has friends in that office, so she needs to steel herself for the possibility that there will be retaliation for it. I dealt with that division’s passive-aggressive bullshit when I posted out, so I’m well aware that anytime you speak out against whatever nonsense they’re trying to pull, you become persona non grata with them.

    I feel so bad for former colleague because she’s a nice lady, and when I was depressed and hating life having to go to that division every day, she was one of the few people who would brighten up my day. I’m trying to find her other job leads throughout the company in the meantime, but her situation is very different than mine. I’m protected by our corporate office since they hired me and groomed me for the position I’m in now. Former colleague is just an admin and she doesn’t know anyone here, so it’s going to be an uphill battle for her. I just hope they don’t force her out of here because she’s very good at what she does and doesn’t deserve to be treated the way she is now.

    1. ginger ale for all*

      Tell her that when she is asked to do work off the clock, before she does it to ask how she need to record that time on her timesheet.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Yup, already on it. The problem is, he has to approve the SVP has to approve the timecard, so I wouldn’t put it past him to change her timecard to just say 40 hours. I think I’m going to advise her to add the time and send a copy to the division’s HR business partner.

        1. Tau*

          Hmm… I’m not sure about sending a copy to HR without going through other steps first, especially since you don’t *know* he’ll do that. What about keeping a copy of the hours worked herself, and then if the paycheck only shows 40 for that time period, raise it with the boss as a clerical error – “my last timesheet was for 40+X hours, but it looks as if only 40 were entered by mistake. How can we fix this?” At that point if the boss pushes back, going to HR would seem more reasonable.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            Yeah, that’s a better idea for her. Either way, she’s going to get some pushback because, unfortunately, her boss is quite chummy with a lot of the people in HR. They’ll shut down the pay thing because if our company’s CEOs found out about this, heads would roll. But they’ll most likely turn a blind eye to the rest of the crap that’ll come down on former colleague like they did with my previous manager’s antics. *sigh* It sucks that HR doesn’t work for us.

            1. Observer*

              Well, at least they’ll stop the pay issue, which will either mean more money for her, or she’ll get her weekends back. That has to be a good thing.

              But, I think you are right that finding her another spot would be the best thing, if you can help her with that.

              1. Christopher Tracy*

                Yeah, I just hope we can find her something internally and she gets the job because if she applies for a new job and doesn’t get it, I have no doubt they’ll try and push her out.

  40. Maureen*

    In March I left my first-line IT manager position at a University, where I had been for four years, to take a job as a Service Manager with a start-up. At the end of the 30-day probation period with the start-up (first week of May), I was let go. They told me I wasn’t keeping up with the fast pace. They also weren’t happy that I couldn’t handle help desk tickets on top of managing.

    At any rate, I am now left with a resume problem. I can put the start-up on the resume (dates of April 2016 – May 2016) but surely any hiring manager that sees that I left my most recent job after two months is going to throw my resume in the trash, no?

    So I thought I might just leave the start-up off my resume, as Alison usually recommends with short duration jobs that aren’t contract work, but now I look like I have been out of work since March. If I leave the start-up off my resume, how do I explain why I left the University? I could tell a hiring manager I left to go into business for myself, but then why am I looking for a job after only two months of self-employment? That would look kind of flighty. Or I could tell the hiring manager I left to take care of an elderly relative who has since passed on, but if they talk to my references at the University, they will find out that isn’t true.

    Should I leave the 2 months at the startup off, as Alison typically suggests for short stints that were not meant to be short stints? If I do, what do I tell the interviewer that asks “Why did you leave your position with ?”

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think you could probably leave it off, and if asked why you left the University, say that you were pursuing something new that ended up not panning out.

    2. UK JAM*

      I’d just tell the truth and say you left for an opportunity with a start up that didn’t pan out. They might just assume the start up failed or was short of funds, and even if you tell the full truth it doesn’t look that bad.

  41. Elizabeth*

    A few of my colleagues and I are on contacts that lack paid leave of any kind and don’t have many of the perks of the normal contracts many of the staff in our department have. One of the few advantages here is that while any leave is unpaid, the amount we can take is in theory not capped. The previous manager couldn’t approve leave requests absolutely every time, but was generally very accommodating and sorted out any issues with minimal drama.

    Things aren’t so easy with the current manager. He’s decided that all leave requests must be submitted a very long time in advance (the deadline for the Christmas/new year season was a month ago). I couldn’t request Christmas leave because my family hasn’t decided if the family Christmas celebrations will be mostly before or after Christmas day so far in advance. He’s also decided that only a set tiny number of people can be on scheduled leave at any time, even during periods were the volume of work coming in is likely to be lower than usual. Now leave is allocated via random draw conducted in front of everyone requesting leave in which the people discovering they won’t be getting the leave they wanted or needed are stuck in a small conference room observing the joy of those who got lucky. Obviously this causes quite a bit of stress and drama. It was just horrible watching a colleague who desperately needed leave due to a difficult family situation panic about the fact that she would likely be unsuccessful in the draw (thankfully she was in the lucky tiny group drawn). They once even tried guilting people, saying in a meeting that if more people didn’t withdraw their requests, a co-worker might miss out on leave for her own wedding!

    Is there an appropriate, productive way to negotiate for better leave arrangements or do I just have to accept that this is how things work now?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think you should 1) consider having all of the employees have a talk with the current manager and ask to go back to the way the rest of the department/company handles leave, 2) look for another job (maybe internally, since it seems to just be your current manager that is the issue), 3) decide that some family events are The Hill You Want To Die On, and say “I need to take personal time”, and then just take it.

  42. Yuck*

    I need to handle an awkaward situation with my boss.

    We work in a 3 person office. I am the only one without a private office, my desk is in the main area and around the corner from the bathroom. When I started it was bad enough with the smell/sounds because my male boss has a bowel problem. My other coworker is not exposed to these sounds/smells and is oblivious to his bathroom habits.

    Well over the past few weeks he’s been going to the washroom and not even closing the door behind him. I can tell because I never hear the squeeky door clank shut and I can hear him peeing very clearly. The other day I didn’t know he was in there and I needed to go – well I saw him using the washroom…. he didn’t see me but I was horrified that I need to be exposed to that at work.

    I feel powerless. He is my boss, it is his business and he is older than I am (I literally feel like a little kid next to him). I’ve only been here a few months and I don’t want to get sacked because I tell him to shut the bathroom door when he goes to pee. Is there any practical way to handle this?

    To make matters worse, he doesn’t wash his hands after peeing… and touches my keyboard, pens and paperwork!

    1. Collie*

      Oh man, that is awful. If it were me, I’d probably put up a sign on the door that politely reminds people to close the door. But I also know that’s probably not the best way to handle it.

      1. Yuck*

        If it were not just me and a longstanding coworker I would’ve slapped a note on the door because he’d not know it was me.

    2. Anon Moose*

      I don’t think anyone reasonable would fire you for very politely/discreetly asking him to please close the bathroom door. If your desk is in the main area, you can even couch it in clients’/ visitors comfort rather than your own. I feel like, yeah, its awkward but he’ll likely be embarrassed too and change his behavior pretty fast. So really, just say something.

      1. Yuck*

        I realize that saying something is going to end up being my only option… I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out a subtle hint that’d make him realize that I know he isn’t closing the door (I think he is oblivious to how loud he is/bathroom acoustics).

        We get clients in the office very rarely so next time someone is in (and he uses the washroom) I’ll have to just discreetly make a comment that the client was a bit uncomfortable… Ideally we’ll get one of our bold clients in that knows my boss well and he’ll hear (it really is that loud) and then same something to him.

    3. TootsNYC*

      Just cheerfully call out, “Hey boss, can you close the door?” the next time he goes in the bathroom. As if it’s no big deal, kind of like, “Hey boss, can you bring back a padded envelope from the supply room?”

  43. Aella*

    I have been reading Reddit Relationships, and longing to send them to AAM. Does anyone else have sites where you just want to link them here?

    (Particularly the woman who is being sexually harrassed by her manager, link to follow)

    3. some1*

      I recall a letter to Dan Savage a few months back where a woman was working at a health club or spa and her job was to give tours and sign new members. Her counterpart was looking for a Sugar Daddy and was vetting them by having them sign up for tour and the LW was squicked out by that. Dan told her to mind her own business, but I would have loved to see how Alison would have answered it.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I just spent hours reading Reddit Relationships last night (thanks to the Toast starting to link to them). I had to bite my tongue constantly or I would have written pages.

      1. Aella*

        I read them regularly. I concluded it was probably too much when my responses started to be “Dump him,” and “Dump him,” and “Both of you go to therapy. Or dump him.”

        The work ones are the worst, though. I saw people recommending that one woman contact people she’d applied to in order to remind them that she existed, and I was wailing “Nooooo! Ask Alison! It might help with your job issues, though not your boyfriend ones!”

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Sometimes I am reading something elsewhere on the internet and I see someone in the comments linking here, and that is exciting to me every time.

          1. Triangle Pose*

            Happens all the time on corporette! I never used to regularly check that website because while the target workplace attire is similar to mine (it leans white collar office environment with a focus on BigLaw/lawyer/executive/boardroom), the recommendations are really hit or miss for my personal style, however once I realized how fullsome the commenters are for career and general professional advice, I started reading daily. Your sage advice is often linked to there.

    5. Lily Evans*

      I constantly recommend AAM to people on social media sites (usually tumblr, sometimes facebook), but only when people are actually asking for advice. Sometimes I’m so tempted to send people links when they’re just venting about things, but I’m not a fan of unsolicited advice.

    6. Karo*

      Literally any time on reddit that someone asks a jobs-related question I want to link to Alison. If I ever respond and it has a work component, I’ll generally try to link to Alison’s relevant post on the matter as my source.

    7. Emilia Bedelia*

      Ugh, when I can muster up the patience I love to hate-read r/relationships…. so many questions that boil down to, “my girlfriend broke up with me and I want that to not be true. What do I do?”
      Also, “my boyfriend is an immature asshole and treats me terribly. How do I fundamentally change him as a person? ”

      People make fun of the knee jerk “break up with him” response but it’s so,so, true, so many times.

      1. Aella*

        Or the ones where my immediate response is “May I introduce you to r/justnomil?”

        Or the frankly weird incest ones.

        …possibly I should start a ‘Best of WTAF’ thread on the Open Thread tomorrow.

        1. Karo*

          oh my god I am obsessed with r/justnomil. I have a genuinely good MIL – likes me, but doesn’t really care what her son and I do – so it’s not like any of it speaks to me, but the stories are just so ridiculous.

      2. Blue Anne*

        Yes. This is exactly why I no longer read r/relationships. It’s just too depressing.

    8. Unfaithful Reader*

      I feel a bit uncomfortable about linking other sites to this one because many of the sites are run by people who are competitors to Alison, although I’ve never found one with a bulletin board that’s as much fun as this one. Even writing about it makes me feel like I’m cheating on Alison.

      That said, most of the time the advice they offer is pretty much the same as what Alison would say, only maybe not as articulately.

      1. Liz Ryan at “Forbes” magazine is very much the most direct of Alison’s competitors and offers pretty much similar advice, although usually with a bit more of a terminally professional style.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/

      2. Lucy Kellaway is sort of the English version of Alison. I first heard her on the BBC Radio Business News, but I haven’t heard her there in quite a while. She’s a regular writer at “The Financial Times” and her agony aunt column appears in “The Irish Times.” (You can google “Lucy Kellaway” and “Irish Times” to see her column.) “The FT” website is now a pay only site to read the articles, but you can listen to her podcasts at the following link:

      http://podcast.ft.com/s/listen-to-lucy/

      Lucy is a smart, educated, cheeky lower-class girl who got some breaks and worked her way into some plum positions. She’s very pro-employee, but she’s also pro-business and loves business, but not stupidity in business and goes off on tangents that are more about business in general and not related to working.

      3. Susan Cain and “The Quiet Revolution” is a regular site I visit and find helpful as an introvert. Obviously not for everyone.

      http://www.quietrev.com/

  44. Alston*

    Hey Anonymous Guy from last week! The one with the HR assistant who sent out a company wide email with graphs showing the pay discrepancy between the men and women at the company, any update after the managers got out of their meeting?

    5. Mike C.*

      Yeah, I was hoping for an update too! Even if it’s “my lawyer said to not talk about this”. ;)

  45. Plain turkey sandwich*

    Does anyone have any advice or tips on accommodating different people’s lunch specifications (for lack of better word) when ordering office lunch

    I have :
    one picky eater, will only eat a plain turkey sandwich, no condiments no toppings, self describes as picky eater, doesn’t even like pizza
    one allergic to peppers
    one vegan who doesn’t eat vegetables (she does but she generally eats junk or vegan snack food even for meals) I have ordered vegan options but just because it’s vegan doesn’t mean she likes it (tomato soup)
    soon to start on our team is strictly kosher

    We have a staff of 20 so ordering lunch to satisfy the three I have now is incredibly difficult to find a place. I have asked the vegan for lunch suggestions so I can better accommodate her but it has generally been unsuccessful and she has been unresponsive I told her I feel bad she has to eat lettuce all the time and she said oh I should, it’s healthy. We work at large university so luckily we have catering that I just found out has a special Kosher facility so that may be the way to go when ordering lunch in the future but the rest of the staff gets sick of catering. I am all about being accommodating but I feel bad when the vegan is stuck eating lettuce, and we have to only order places that offer turkey sandwiches. At one point is it acceptable to say hey I’m sorry you’re on your own (thinking in just the turkey sandwich case). I think catering is the way to go, but it will blow our budget to spend $300+ on lunch everytime. I was curious what other people do or how they handle this. There are really no restaurants that deliver anything with a vegan option around here that I have found, I asked vegan what some of her favorite restaurants are as well, no answer. Many places don’t deliver. We generally do this a few times a year, but also celebrate new staff members with Welcome Breakfasts that include breakfast food. Any tips or advice would be so helpful!

    1. Leatherwings*

      If picky eater and vegan are so particular and don’t have suggestions for you, maybe you can get something regular for other folks and give them a couple of specific options?

      I used to be in charge of ordering catering for a group of HS students with sort of similar dietary restrictions as your group – the one kid who wouldn’t eat anything but bean burritos, a few vegetarians/vegans and a some kids who didn’t eat pork.

      I would order normal catering food like pasta or burritos or sandwiches for the group with a couple of different options and then let whoever wasn’t accommodated by those options pick something off the menu or grab something else for them at a convenient place (i.e. a quick run to Jimmy Johns). Inevitably there would be someone who wasn’t happy and that’s just too bad. If you’re accommodating peoples’ religious restrictions (kosher) and giving everyone else options that they CAN eat, it’s up to them if they WON’T eat it.

      And I say this as a picky vegetarian – I hate most condiments and when someone offers me a veggie pasta salad I’ll politely take a few bites and then eat the granola bar I brought for myself. If the vegan person doesn’t have suggestions for you, then they’ve opted out of having a lunch they’ll eat (for what it’s worth, it sounds like they have a tricky relationship with food anyways.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think to some degree you need to triage needs here:

      1) Allergy (because physical health)
      2) Vegan & Kosher (because personal beliefs)
      3) Picky Eater (is just picky)

      Definitely Picky Eater should be willing to either learn how to manage, or bring her own food from home. Look, I get pickiness, tomatoes taste like poison to me and finding catering sandwiches and wraps that don’t include tomatoes is needle-in-a-haystack operation! Half the time they don’t even frickin’ list them in the ingredients. But I’m not allergic, nor do I have strong moral or religious beliefs that ban me from eating tomatoes, so finding a tomato on my sandwich just means I have to pick it out and scrape off the goo; it’s not offensive, nor does it mean the whole sandwich has to be trashed.

      Vegan has told you she’s fine with what she’s got. It’s awesome that you want to be able to offer better vegan options than just lettuce, but at the end of the day, take her at her word and take that off your plate. If she’s discontented with lettuce, it’s her job to go to you and say “hey, look, can we swing a better vegan alternative for the next catered meal? This isn’t working for me.”

      When Kosher starts, you may want to sit down with them and ask for ideas. Something like “Hey, we like to do team meals, and I want to make sure we get things you can eat. Can you give me some suggestions for what kind of foods work best for you in Xsetting?”

      Allergies are… well, allergies are something you don’t mess with. That’s the hardest of hard limits. You make sure that she can get something that is entirely pepper-free.

      1. some1*

        I agree with this after years of ordering lunches for coworkers. I send out a menu with vegan, etc. options and if people don’t like any of the choices, they are free to have buy their own lunch

      2. Very picky*

        Not all picky eaters are just picky… I literally will throw up if I were to eat a pizza slice without all toppings and sauce removed. There is such a thing as a ‘selective eating disorder’ that can be devastating by limiting common foods through taste or texture. I once cried trying to force myself to eat strawberries that were brought in.

        I have been diagnosed with this and treatment failed… so it is very offensive to read things like “should be willing to either learn or manage.” When people work with me to find an edible option then I don’t get excluded. Often you feel like the odd one out when you have a paper bag lunch and everyone else gets the restaurant food brought in…

        1. Plain turkey sandwich*

          I agree but so far he has just described himself as very picky, the more information I have the easier it is to order. Is this something that you are comfortable disclosing to your work?

        2. Megs*

          Although that sucks and I am super sorry you have to deal with that, I think the advice stands with respect to 95% of people who self-describe as “picky eaters.” I’m not sure it makes sense to even be describing yourself that way – I would think people would respond more favorably if you say “food restrictions” rather than “picky” (and it seems more accurate)?

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Right. This sounds like an eating disorder, not picky eating… which would then move your situation into the allergy/medical category of “must be accommodated.”

        3. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

          Please don’t even place yourself in the same category as a picky eater. That’s not fair to you, or the very real condition that you’re faced with. I can only imagine some of the challenges that you’ve faced! :(

      3. Plain turkey sandwich*

        Thanks! All helpful, I included peppers because it mostly means we can’t do Asian places because of hidden items that may have peppers (what I was told) but that’s when its been context of a few of us going out to lunch together on our own volition. But she is definitely not hard to accommodate.

        I think Picky Eater would have a meltdown if he found a tomato on his sandwich, he has stated that if a pickle gets in the lunch it cannot touch the bread, so that stresses me out in ordering, he isn’t senior to me though (not that it would matter but it would be different if it was my Boss who is the Highest Ranking. And yes I think Vegan will just have to speak up if she wants something different.

        I don’t love the idea of running out to get someone (particularly for picky eater) something, because these are all adults and I think my role isn’t as junior to be doing that. I should get clarification from my boss because it might just be something I Have To Do.

        I think the solution I am trying to see works is mainly pizza, because it is such a cheaper option and easier to do on the fly, and as a surprise we’re getting pizza! But definitely not as many options for these folks.

          1. Plain turkey sandwich*

            I am an admin, but my role has changed a bit since I first started and we recently had leadership change, I do more EA duties and work a lot with budget stuff so when it is end of fiscal (right now) I think my time is better spent on budget. I also think the only case I would go out and get something special is if it were a plain turkey sandwich for the Picky Eater. I don’t think I should be responsible in acting as an assistant to him because he doesn’t like anything else. I have one coworker who I have discussed this with to see if I am off in my expectation and she completely agreed and confirmed I would be within reason to push back on that request if it were made by someone.

            1. Plain turkey sandwich*

              Also on the days I order the lunch for I am running around setting the event up and making sure everything is done that needs to (room set up, facilities, delivery on time) that I don’t really have time to go get him something.

        2. Observer*

          The kosher person is probably going to be hard to accommodate, if she’s really strictly kosher. Almost any place that is not truly vegan is not going to be able to accommodate if they don’t have a kosher facility. Pizza will absolutely NOT work.

          On the other hand, I’d be willing to be that she will be pleased that you tried, at least.

    3. Very picky*

      I am a picky eater than will sometimes eat bare turkey sandwiches and need to peel off all topping and sauce from a pizza…

      For a picky eater, look for things that can be deconstructed so she can either remove (or not add) the things she doesn’t like. Many restaurants will customize the order to her liking or can make an off-menu item for you. Or just make a special trip to a restaurant/corner store that sells the turkey sandwiches.

      It’d even help for her to make a list of foods she likes for you to consult to see if you could get her a side of fries, a garlic bread, some nachos, or something like that. Usually the appetizers are picky friendly when customized.

      It can be emotionally devastating and isolating to be told “We won’t try to accommodate you so everyone else gets the free lunch and you can eat what you brought or go out of the office”. Many like me don”t choose to be picky, we feel like outcasts because we can’t stomach normal foods we want to eat.

      1. Calliope~*

        “It can be emotionally devastating and isolating to be told “We won’t try to accommodate you so everyone else gets the free lunch and you can eat what you brought or go out of the office”. Many like me don”t choose to be picky, we feel like outcasts because we can’t stomach normal foods we want to eat.”

        This is me. Our office does breakfasts once a month to celebrate birthdays. I have severe IBS and have to stick to a low FODMAP diet which means among other things, no wheat or rye. For my birthday, they had Bagels and donuts. :/ (they also forgot to do the signed BD card that everyone else gets- I’m used to that, as my birthday is so close to Christmas and that has happened pretty much all my life)

        1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

          Can you speak to your boss comfortably? If so, please do speak up.

          Low FODMAP can be slightly more challenging to accommodate (IBD’er here!), but I imagine they could find *something* that everyone could enjoy. I would go in with some suggestions, if at all possible (fruit tray? things from a gluten-free bakery? chocolate? cheeses?) I would be so saddened to know that an employee couldn’t enjoy their celebrations due to food we didn’t think to ask about!

          1. Calliope~*

            Oh, they all know. And they laugh about it every single month “Oh, Calliope… too bad you can have these yummy donuts… these are the BEST BAGELS.. look at what you’re missing”…. For the most part, I just take care of myself because they just don’t care. It would’ve been nice for at least the month they celebrate my birthday to have ~something~ I can eat though.

            This year, I’ll buy the chocolate quinoa cupcake with peanut butter frosting for myself, now that I know they won’t bother.

    4. Christian Troy*

      When I worked at a large university, for lunch grand rounds the menu was generally a couple of different wraps and sandwiches, pasta salad, and a fruit salad. If people didn’t want to eat, then they were on their own.

    5. Pearl*

      As far as finding other options for the vegan person, I think you’ve done as much as you can. If she can’t suggest restaurants or other meal options, she sounds happy enough with what she’s getting. You shouldn’t feel bad about it. If she ends up unhappy, she’ll complain, and then you can say, “If you have some new options you’d like me to order, I would be happy to” – and if she still doesn’t, she can bring her own food. You can’t read minds.

      Also, I am not Jewish/don’t keep kosher but I do order a lot of food for my kosher workplace. There are different levels of kosher. I think you will want to have a chat with the new person once they start about what they prefer for delivered food.

      For instance, there’s a restaurant around where I work that is kosher and very popular, but they use a cheese provider our rabbi doesn’t consider to be strictly kosher, so we don’t order from them. If that was the only place around, and we were just a random office, my rabbi would probably prefer to bring his own food from home. Then there’s my old Orthodox coworker, also self-described as strictly kosher, who would eat vegetarian, vegan, and fish at non-kosher restaurants as long as they weren’t cooked on a grill with meat/shellfish. It’s worth checking in about once the new person starts.

    6. GigglyPuff*

      Totally fellow picky eater here…I’d say, honestly that’s pretty much their problem. (Couldn’t figure out a way to make that sound less harsh). Maybe I’m also just really conscientious, but I don’t really expect people to go out of their way to accommodate my pickiness.

      If you can, especially if you tend to order from the same places, maybe show them the menu you are choosing from and have them pick out some stuff they’d be willing to eat. I’d say that’s as much as you owe them. And maybe publicize what food will be available ahead of time, in case there isn’t anything and they could bring their own.

      The vegan, they seem fine. For the allergies, just make sure the caterer knows and the person knows which ones are strictly pepper-free.

      For the kosher, ask! Especially if you are planning a welcome breakfast just for them. Hopefully you can find a caterer who can do kosher, and try to accommodate them when doing future catering, but let them know you have a limited number of options and kosher might not always be available, and you will let them know when that happens.

      1. Plain turkey sandwich*

        I did that last time, sent around the menu of what we were getting to give a heads up (trying some trial and error solutions so far) and they both came without anything. I think Picky Eater was fine, didn’t say anything and just had a roll but when other coworkers said how great the lunch was Vegan said sarcastically, yeah the lettuce is great. So I think that is where my trying to accommodate her comes from. I think it reflects badly on me if we have a catered lunch and people don’t have anything to eat. The lunch included Tomato Soup which was a Vegan option and on the menu beforehand.

        1. Perse's Mom*

          In re: tomato soup – I’m not vegan, so this may not even qualify as a data point for you, but… I LOVE tomatoes. I will eat those things raw like an apple. I like ketchup, tomato based sauces, etc… but I HATE tomato soup. I don’t know why it is – I like soup in general. I’m fine with chunks of stewed tomatoes in my mom’s chili. But I cannot abide tomato soup.

          All that said, Vegan’s snarky responses would get a rise out of me. It sounds like you’re doing everything you can short of home cooking meals for her but nothing works for her, she’s literally not providing YOU with any feedback, and then she snarks to coworkers about it. I kind of feel like you should, if possible, try to shut that down. It reflects badly on you if she has nothing but lettuce to eat because she’s not telling people about the efforts you HAVE made to try to meet her needs. “You keep telling me you’re okay with lettuce when I apologize for the limited vegan options, and I never did get a response to that email asking you for restaurant/catering/menu options that would work better for you.”

          1. GigglyPuff*

            Ha! I’m totally the opposite. I don’t mind tomato based stuff, and could even make myself eat tomato soup if needed, but I will not touch an intact tomato. No idea why, just does not appeal to me. If there’s raw tomato on it, I take it off, really can’t do chunky in anything. Even started to make my own spaghetti sauce cause I was tired of the little chunks even in marinara.

          2. Plain turkey sandwich*

            I agree that was the first time I had tomato soup and I realized why I never had it before. When getting a second opinion a coworker weighed in that that would be enough to satisfy Vegan options. But I do know that just because it is vegan doesn’t mean they will like it.

            1. Barb*

              I’m vegan and the issue with tomato soup for me would be that it had hardly any calories. I’d enjoy the soup, but then is wonder where the rest of the meal was.

              That being said, it seems strange that they don’t have any useful suggestions of where to order from. I agree that you should let them know you’re open to that, and then not worry about it.

        2. GigglyPuff*

          I’d say it’s time to try and let it go. You’ve tried multiple things, you are trying to be super accommodating, and when people start acting like that, that’s on them, not you.

          Okay, though gotta ask, was it actually just lettuce? or was it a salad? maybe have a salad option and if the caterer doesn’t have vegan-free dressing, offer to buy a bottle the vegan likes that they can use during catered meals. But seriously if this is only a couple of times a year, I think you should just try to let it go.

        3. TL -*

          There is a point where some people are just impossible to feed in a group setting. (I am one of those people.) Do your reasonable best, and send out the menu beforehand so if there’s nothing they can/will eat, they know to bring in food.

    7. Temperance*

      I have a pepper allergy. Thank you for accommodating your coworker! People seldom listen to me when I bring this up as an issue, and it’s unsafe for me to just pick them off (because I’m not picky, I’m allergic).

      I order build-your-own sandwich trays with a side salad, grilled veggies, and snacks. The vegan needs to buck up and deal or give you a solution. I work with two men who keep kosher, and we order from their preferred kosher restaurant for them and everyone else gets regular food. Kosher food can be expensive.

      1. Plain turkey sandwich*

        That’s an interesting solution! I will have to look into that, the build your own sandwich! Kosher Cuisine(?) is new to me so I will definitely have a sit down with the new coworker and figure something out.

        1. Megs*

          I’m a huge fan of build-your-own __ situations. Even if it’s a food I don’t especially like (such as the tacos suggested below), I can always toss something together.

    8. ginger ale for all*

      Could you do a taco bar where people are given the ingredients to fill their own tacos with whatever they want? Or in the winter, a baked potato bar with the same concept?

      1. Plain turkey sandwich*

        I think tacos are too adventurous for Picky Eater, so that is where my question comes from is it ok to leave him without an option? Or I would order something from somewhere else? Just in Major City, delivery fees are crazy so ordering two places on the same day is very pricy.

        1. Rocky*

          Honestly, I wouldn’t be trying to guess what Picky Eater will or won’t eat. I would just say “We’re doing taco bar, yay! This is what’s included. If this won’t work for you, let me know and we’ll order you something else.” Higher catering costs are just the cost of doing business when you’re trying to accommodate a lot of different preferences and needs.

          1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

            Or you can handle the picky eater like how I approach it with my preschooler. “This is the food, kid. Eat or starve!”

            Or maybe only in your head you say that. :)

            1. Plain turkey sandwich*

              lol there is a lot of eye rolling when I get the instructions from him in mostly all caps.

              2. asteramella*

                Wow, if he’s being rude, I would definitely not be bending over backwards to accommodate him like this. Announce what food there will be, he can get his own plain turkey sandwich if he wants.

      2. Rocky*

        Yeah, we have every food issue under the sun here, and taco bar has always been a big hit. Other times, our admin staff just send out menus from whatever deli they’re ordering from, and ask people what they want, with a note that if nothing on the menu works for you, speak up and we’ll get you something else.

      3. Temperance*

        That wouldn’t work well for the person who keeps kosher, but ordering them separate meals should be easy.

    9. LisaLee*

      At the risk of sounding harsh, I think you need to stop worrying about Picky Eater. It isn’t reasonable for him to have literally one food item he can eat and then expect you to always provide it. If he genuinely can only stomach plain turkey sandwiches, then sometimes it needs to be on him to bring his own sandwiches.

      After you eliminate him, I think you have several options. Middle Eastern and Indian restaurants are full of vegan, pepper-free (I assume you mean the vegetable, not the spice) options and can often prepare kosher meals because there is a lot of cross-over between kosher and halal (but it depends on what restrictions your employee observes, so clarify that). A big salad + a build-your-own sandwich/pasta/potato/whatever bar goes a long way.

      1. Observer*

        No, Middle Eastern and (especially) Indian restaurants actually generally CANNOT accommodate “strictly kosher” cooking. Indian restaurants don’t even do Halal, and Halal is quite different from Kosher. Kosher food doesn’t need to be alcohol free, but not only does it need be pork free, there are a lot of other qualifications. The basics are no meat / fowl and dairy (and you can’t share utensils for cooking either); milk / dairy has to be kosher (there are different levels, but even at the basic level you can’t assume that a container of milk in the grocery is kosher); there are limited types of meat that can be served (and again you can’t share utensils); the meat / fowl needs to be slaughtered in a very specific way; meat / fowl needs to “kosherized” (ie treated in a way that draws a significant amount of the blood out – it’s a very specific process); limited types of fowl; limited types of fish – and shell fish of any sort is out.

    10. Chriama*

      I honestly think you’re trying too hard. Come up with a few options, ask if they have any suggestions of their own. If you can accommodate their suggestions or they like one of your options, good. If not, you tried and too bad (especially because it doesn’t sound like they’re working with you here so you’re more invested in this than them).

      1. New Reader*

        I very much agree with this. I’m a picky eater and I have several medical conditions that are exacerbated by certain foods. I never expect others to go out far out of their way to accommodate me. I either find something to eat within what’s provided, bring my own food to eat, or eat my own food in my office before or after a lunch meeting.

        I do appreciate when a provided meal has options for types of food or a make-your-own whatever so I can pick and choose what to include in the sandwich/salad/taco/whatever. And when asked if I have allergies or preferences, I try to keep the answers to reasonably accommodated items. If it turns out there is nothing I can eat, I just say I’m not hungry and then eat back at my desk, where I keep things I can eat.

        I once worked at a place where an executive’s spouse provided the catering staff (we had a company on contract for most catered meals) with a 2-page long list of do’s and don’ts for their own (the spouse, not the employee) food issues. It was detailed down to condiments and garnishes.

    11. Triangle Pose*

      Kudos to you for being so accommodating and thinking about all this stuff – this is the kind of thing I wouldn’t handle as beautifully if it was part of my duties.

    12. c*

      I also work at a university and often order lunch for small and large groups. It really is increasingly challenging to find options that will work for everyone’s dietary restrictions. (I’m a vegetarian myself, so I understand the issue from both sides.)

      I agree with others that “build-your-own” bars have been very helpful in the past. Our food services department will do this sometimes, and having tacos, burritos, or even pasta with several sauce options and a green salad (not Caesar dressing, though, because of the anchovies) is usually a hit.

      Does your institution have an on-campus cafeteria? As the person responsible for securing food at meetings, I have found that having a few extra cafeteria vouchers on hand is very helpful. It lets me provide an option for anyone whose needs are not accommodated by what has been ordered.

      As a vegetarian, when I attend meetings and no options are available, I usually try to discreetly eat what I can and then grab a substantial snack on my own later. The point of the meeting is not to feed me, and it feels ungracious to make a big deal out of it. My diet is my responsibility.

    13. Blurple*

      Are you sure Turkey Sandwich is only eating that period, or is it because that’s the only option from past caterers that have been palatable?

      I have to admit, I’m a picky eater. I’m not being obstinate for fun, I will get very nauseated if I try to eat the couple of things I hate and that’s why I hate them. Sucking it up is not a thing. But I don’t like people fussing about it so when group catering comes up I often just opt out and bring my own food and just feel sad for myself on the side. That said, if I have the opportunity to actually order a specific item, that’s a different ball game. I try not to put in special orders but since Turkey Sandwich seems ok with that, can you give folks the menu to the Kosher place and let them make their own selections?

    14. Chaordic One*

      I have food allergies and would prefer to take care of it myself, but sometimes I feel obligated to be a good sport and go along with the group. (I play with my food and only what I can and throw the rest away.) If you told me to take care of it myself I would and it would not be a big deal.

      If I have an allergic reaction, it is usually just cramps and diarrhea. However, I’ve gone into anaphylactic shock a couple of times at company lunches where my tongue swelled up and my throat started to swell shut and I had to be taken to the emergency room and get an epinephrine shot. (So much fun. I should probably get my own epi pen.)

      The worst thing that I’m allergic to is “soy” which problematic because there are so many foods that have it as a cheap filler or as a cheap vegetable oil in place of corn or canola oil and it’s not always labeled. I’ve had bad experiences with most bread, most mayonnaise, most margarines, and most processed foods and candies all because they have soy in them. I’m also allergic to dairy (everything made from cow’s milk) and to tomatoes. The 2 times I’ve

    15. AliceBD*

      I sort-of fit in your scenario! I have pretty severe acid reflux, so I can’t eat tomatoes or citrus items (nor can I drink anything other than water, and most of the time I can’t have sweet baked goods like pastries or cake or sometimes cookies). I’m not allergic, but injesting them causes me stomach upset, which can range from mild to vomiting depending on a number of factors. Sandwiches are fine because I can pick stuff off, but for example I can’t have pizza or spaghetti or anything with tomato sauce. For work lunches or youth group dinners (where pizza is very popular) I just ask that I’m informed ahead of time. It’s NBD for me to bring my own food to things and I don’t really think anything of it, as long as I am given a heads up the day before. I’ll happily sit with everyone else and eat my food and otherwise participate. I have coworker’s with multiple severe food allergies, and my former boss has pretty bad lactose intolerance (can’t have baked goods made with butter). We all just bring our own food to things where we can’t eat the provided food.

    16. Jen*

      I have a good friend who is an ultra
      Picky eater. My toddler is 100x less
      Picky. Friend is mid 30s and will only Loke, plain pasta- as long as it doesn’t touch any other fooD.

      However! She knows she is a giant pain and never causes issues. She either BYOs or will make do at a restaurant. She would never dream of asking someone to accommodate her.

  46. SaviourSelf*

    What do you do when you’re in complete burn out mode but have too much work to do to take the needed time off to recover and rejuvenate?

    1. F.*

      I can tell you from experience (I was where you are a year ago) that you force yourself to take the time off. Don’t do what I did by being a martyr and compromise your health and sanity. If management will not let you take the time off, start looking for another job. Yes, the work will probably pile up while you are out, but you will be better able to handle it when you come back rested and relaxed. Trust me, if you dropped dead, they would find a way to get the work done.

      1. Rabbit*

        100% agreed with F. You take the time off, no matter what. Don’t let it impact your health more.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Aside from just taking the time anyway, I’d suggest you reflect on what’s causing your burnout. Is it too much work and not enough time to do it? Is is that the work you’re doing plays against your strengths? Are you not getting the recognition you feel you need? etc. What would a world look like in which you were not burned out?

  47. Mimmy*

    Reality check needed!

    I’ve written over the past few Open Threads about possible career directions now that I’m finished with my certificate program, such as policy analysis or program evaluation. I know I probably won’t be able to START with these, but they are things I’d eventually like to do. However, the question and subsequent discussion about transportation and work got me thinking that maybe my goals are unrealistic.

    I cannot drive due to a vision impairment and must rely on other means of transportation. The gist I got from yesterday’s discussion is that many employers just want employees to have a reliable means to get to and from work. That’s not what I’m worried about; my concern is jobs that require off-site work, e.g. attending meetings or site visits. Public transportation in NJ is generally so-so at best and I’m not sure how I feel about constantly doing Uber. So I ask myself if I should just resign myself to entry-level, office-based work or buck up and figure out how to make it work. People tell me I have potential and I believe it. I just feel stymied by NJ’s less-than-awesome transit system. I know I probably should do some informational interviews to find out how much on-the-job travel is required in the roles I’m hoping for.

    Also of note: I also got re-connected with my state’s Voc Rehab agency for the visually impaired, but predictably, the woman working with me is slow in getting back to me after a productive meeting last Friday :( I know they can’t tell me what to do, but their support would be helpful because I don’t know where else to turn.

    1. Christy*

      I feel like there’s a billion jobs out there that are 100% in the office. Government work in many sectors, for one. The only two people I know who have to regularly travel to other sites are my friend the environmental inspector and my wife the public library supervisor. (And my wife’s situation is unusual, and she doesn’t drive, either, and it’s still pretty workable for her.)

    2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Depending on salary, could you eventually move yourself to a larger city like NYC or Chicago? Those cities would practically require you to use public transport due to the high cost of owning a vehicle.

  48. Anon for this*

    Advice about adult ADD in the workplace + medication? I’m fairly recently diagnosed and have been trying medication for about two months (on a higher dosage the second month), but…I just don’t know if it’s working? I can feel that it’s affecting me, but I really don’t know if I feel like it’s improved my focus. So I guess I’m just looking for any tips & tricks for how to make the most of the meds or any personal experiences with how long it took to feel like you’re making progress?

    1. GigglyPuff*

      One thing to keep in mind, the medication will (hopefully) improve your focus, but it won’t help you pick to focus on the correct thing. For example, I have to be really careful with reading on my lunch break, because next thing I know, it isn’t my lunch break anymore and hadn’t been for a while.
      So in the beginning, you really have to make an effort to concentrate on the things you are supposed to be doing, then hopefully you’ll settle into the task and be able to focus long term.

      There are good days, where you’ll be like “wow I got a lot done today, it’s over already?” and there are bad, where you have a need to focus but just don’t want to work on anything. (I’m totally having one of those days, I’m like super twitchy right now, but have no desire to work on my to-do list).

      I know other people here have recommended lists, giving your self mini-breaks, timed worked, etc. You really just have to find what works best for you. And if something doesn’t work, make sure to talk to your doctor, and they might be able to give you pointers on how to cope. Unfortunately, I’ve found it isn’t exactly rigid, it’s more fluid. You have ups and downs, something will work for a while and then it doesn’t. And it also can depend on your situation, what worked in high school for me, didn’t work as well in college, and once I started working full time it became much more difficult to find the right balance, as I found my productivity and focus needs changed with each job.

      So just hang in there, it will probably take a little while to find the right solution. But remember, just because you’ve started taking medication doesn’t mean it’s automatically going to make you start working on the right things. It will just help you keep focused for longer periods.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks! I appreciate the advice :) I’m in a little bit of a weird place where I didn’t actually seek help for ADD, it’s a comorbid diagnosis, so I’m still kind of adjusting to the idea of myself as a person with focus problems (even though it’s really obvious now that someone’s said it haha) and trying to figure out what “good” focus means for me.

    2. LegalAdmin*

      I was diagnosed with adult add about three years ago and I had to try a few different medications and schedules before I found what works for me currently. I take half my dosage in the morning and half at lunch, otherwise I start crashing around 2 and the day is lost. I start my morning with a detailed list of what needs to get done and at what priority so if I get hyper focused I have an outline of what I should be working on instead of 30 articles deep on Wikipedia. That is what works for me personally but Gigglypuff gave some really great advice. Especially regarding speaking to your doctor and figuring out what works for you. It is a constant process but it is really worth it. I have learned so much about myself and how I work by being diagnosed.

    3. Dawn*

      ” You really just have to find what works best for you. ”

      I do not have ADD (as far as I know) but as a chronic procrastinator and someone who has a really hard time getting things done without set deadlines I’ve had to struggle for years trying to figure out the best way to be self-policing with my time management. It really did take about ten or fifteen different ways to come up with a solution that allows me to get everything done that *needs* to get done while also building in enough time to read AAM/ browse the internet for a bit so I don’t fall victim to “No one tells me what to do!”… which, for some reason, is where my brain goes if I feel like I’m being “forced” to do work.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        I am so bad at self-policing, and I’m a horrible procrastinator. I’ve learned that if it only impacts me, good luck ever getting that done! But if it impacts other people I’m much better at accomplishing a task. I’m also much better when other people give me guidelines and deadlines. Unfortunately my manager isn’t great at setting deadlines, so I tend to draw things out, then they come back and tell me a deadline that is usually pretty soon and I bang out the task immediately. It’s super annoying, I work sooo much better with clear deadlines, but unfortunately my manager also has ADD (we’ve gotten little to personal with our commiserations before, lol), and I think that’s one of the things they struggle with, but all three of their direct reports has asked for clear deadlines multiple times now.

        TL:DR–self policing is the worst! Still haven’t figured that one out yet.

    5. John Cosmo*

      My experience involved medication in combination with counseling (cognitive behavioral therapy) and upon starting medication I felt a difference almost immediately. My therapist gradually increased the medication dosage up during the first two months and by that time I really noticed that I had much better concentration and focus. Normally I would be attempting to focus on something and my mind would be filled with all sorts of extraneous and unrelated thoughts. It was wonderful. I also think you would notice when the medication takes effect.

      I was only on medication for a couple of years, during which I hope I learned a lot through the counseling, and I’m probably not as sharp in my thinking as when I was on medication, but the meds did have some negative side effects that I do not miss.

  49. Eva*

    Anyone had experience with having a conversation where you need to explain that overtime is needed for an exempt position? I’m inheriting a new exempt group who have gone some time without OT, but are incredibly behind and we’ll need to push to get caught back up.

    While I don’t expect that large amounts of overtime will be needed in the future, I want to be sure to explain that when we have big deadlines, they must be met even if it means some OT.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I don’t mean to be snarky, I genuinely think you just explained it perfectly well. This is normal and expected for most exempt jobs. The only thing I wouldn’t do is explain it as “overtime” – that’s a big loaded for some people. Just explain that they’ll be occassionally expected to work slightly longer hours than what they may have been used to before.

      If there are people who have issues you can speak to them individually and give them reasons about why your specific workload requires a longer work day.

      1. Pwyll*

        +1 to the overtime comment.

        If you feel the need to do a team-wide announcement, I’d say something like “I don’t monitor your individual hours because you’re all salaried professionals and I expect that you’re going to be putting in the hours necessary to get the job done. As you know, we’re behind on x topics and so we’re all going to need to be putting in the hours necessary to get caught up.”

        I’d also set milestone deadlines, if you can, for the backlog. That way people are on notice not that they need to do 6 months of backlog in a week, but something in bite-sized chunks, AND you have a clear item to address with employees who aren’t putting in the time.

      2. Rocky*

        I manage exempt and hourly staff, and don’t utter the word “overtime” to exempt staff or declare that exempt staff need to put in more time across the board to meet a big deadline. Exempt staff are expected to manage their own time. I would stick to saying: “This is the deadline for completing the project. It’s a drop-dead deadline, and missing it means [whatever bad consequences will happen]. Where are you on meeting this deadline? What needs to happen to make sure you meet it?” A lot of the time the issue is just that the importance of the deadline hasn’t been communicated, or they’ve blown other deadlines in the past with no consequences, so they don’t take them seriously. Just having that conversation usually makes it happen. If there is pushback, it usually turns up bigger individual issues, like someone isn’t managing their time well, is working inefficiently, or is confused about priorities.

        1. Eva*

          Thanks, that’s great feedback! I will certainly take that into consideration for my conversations.

    2. Graciosa*

      I wouldn’t frame it as overtime, as that is a concept applied to hourly non-exempt workers.

      I would frame this as a matter of taking care of the responsibility for the work – which it is.

      Professionals who are exempt are responsible for a scope of work. If they get it done in forty hours – or less! – great. If not, they take whatever time is needed to get it done.

      Individuals who believe that they are not required to perform their jobs are coached – or disciplined – appropriately.

    3. fposte*

      Seconding Graciosa–I think calling it overtime is really confusing. I’d call it extended hours or something.

  50. Blue Anne*

    I asked a question here last week about dealing with my new employer’s business ethics stance. I’m at the end of my sixth week with these guys now and I’m seriously questioning whether I should stay.

    Customer service has been terrible. I’m doing a lot of cleaning up messes, and improving service, and that’s great. But so many customers are being incredibly rude to me because they’ve just HAD IT with this company. I don’t blame the customers at all, but it’s pretty worrying. Yesterday my bosses made what I felt was a really terrible customer service call, just really, really bad. We might spoil the grand opening of one of our customers for the sake of saving a couple hundred dollars which we would need to spend to fix OUR mistake. I made it clear to my bosses that I disagreed with the decision and why, but once the decision was made, fine, I did it.

    I was talking to a friend last night and he asked me whether I think I’m going to get to the point where I just don’t care about the job. I told him yes, but it’s more likely to take the form of getting fired because I said “screw it, the customer NEEDS this” and spend the $300 to do right by the customer despite what my bosses say, than burn out and not do my job. My friend said that if I walked into an interview at one of the companies in the ‘family’ of companies he worked for, and said that was why I was leaving, I’d be hired on the spot. Pretty tempting. Sounds more like a culture I’d fit with.

    I don’t know. Urgh. I’m giving it the college try or whatever, and it’s not a bad place to work – my colleagues are nice, bosses do respect my methods and decision-making generally, pay is decent and on time. But I’m starting to think it’s just not workable and I need to continue my job search.

    1. Cristina in England*

      I think that since you’ve moved back recently you can easily leave this off your resume and just GTHO of there. I think that remaining in such an ethically compromising job will just burn a hole through you eventually. I would definitely start looking around for something else since you can so easily explain any gap on your resume right now. Good luck!

      1. Blue Anne*

        I’m kind of worried about leaving it off my resume because at this point the gap is starting to look pretty long. My husband split up with me in December, when I was in the notice period at my big corporate job to start at a smaller firm in January. I only ended up staying at the small firm for a month, because the immigration crap hit the fan in January. And then I started working again at the start of last month.

        So if I leave both short jobs off my resume, it appears as a gap of 6-7 months. That seems like a really long time to me.

        1. Caledonia*

          well some of it can be explained by your international move, can’t it? I forgot about the small firm, was it basically because they couldn’t sponsor you?

          1. Blue Anne*

            Well, I lost my visa because my husband left me, but yeah, the small firm wouldn’t have been able to sponsor me. It was a comedy of errors and now I live in Ohio for some reason I haven’t quite processed yet.

            1. Caledonia*

              So if you have to put or explain the gaps could you say that the small firm couldn’t sponsor you and you had to move back? And then for this latest job either say the reason is ethical or that you had to come back (& leave it off entirely)?

              Ack I hope something good happens soon blue anne!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I am concerned here about how many ethics issues are going on. Sometimes an ethics issue is small and I feel that there are several angles to consider. Those are the toughest ethics issues to me because it’s really hard to nail down an answer. But stuff like you have been writing about is pretty clear cut and the customers are getting ticked. Ticked customers will eventually sink a biz.

      Only you know the full story. If there is illegal stuff going on that you cannot talk about here, get out of the job. Give notice and leave. No job is worth going to jail for.

      If the stories here are the worst of it, then start looking for a new job. Don’t stay with this one just waiting to get fired over principles. Make your plan to move on. That firing is only a moment, that is all it is. It will not change them or impact them in anyway. But it will become a suitcase for you to carry around. And that is a bigger suitcase than the issue of 6-7 months of no employment on your resume. Someone asks you why you left just say, “They were asking me to do things that I felt were probably illegal. I do not wish to elaborate. I did discuss it with them directly. I remained uncomfortable with the situation.”

      I understand that you were hired to help clean up and make the place better. It sounds like they are not letting you do that. You can’t help people who do not want to be helped.

  51. the_scientist*

    On a whim, I applied for a job across the country a few weeks ago. It’s in the public service, it sounded incredibly interesting, and it’s in a beautiful part of the country. Long-term, we’d be interested in living out there but it was kind of a five-year plan thing.

    Well, they invited me for an interview! They originally wanted me to interview next Thursday (about a week’s notice). I am speaking to them by phone today to get more details about the job and to see if it makes sense to fly out for an interview, which is going to be an enormous expense. I’m hoping they could push the interview date out a little bit, but I don’t know if that would be a reasonable request.

    This is all new to me and I’m really excited but also sort of internally freaking out!!

    2. AnoninTexas*

      Won’t they pay to fly you out to interview? They should, even if it’s in the public service. I used to work for the government and while we didn’t have a budget specifically allocated to applicant travel, we all had discretionary budgets to use as we saw fit. If they won’t, ask if they’ll at least help with expenses: Get you a discounted hotel rate, have someone pick you up at the airport, etc. They need to have some skin in the game too…in my humble opinion. If they really like you and think you’re a strong candidate, they can do something. Good luck!

  52. costume teapot*

    I’m having a really hard time with motivation to apply for jobs.

    Part of it is being exhausted every night after working a job I hate.

    Part of it is a lack of proper writing sample in my current job due to the nature of the demands–anything that would be a suitable writing sample has to be presented in a weird PowerPoint and in person because nobody can apparently read and comprehend even simple operational guidance if it’s more than two sentences. I’m finally taking a situation from last year and writing a whole new writing sample that is essentially the equivalent of what I explained in the other format so I hope it helps.

    But none of my applications have had any kind of reaction since I started in March and I’m starting to get nervous that the longer I am not working in my actual field, the harder it will be to find work. (My title and job were changed after a merger a few months back…what I do now 100% used to be 40% of my job.)

    Any encouragement or tips for motivation super appreciated!!

    1. Anon Moose*

      Your writing sample doesn’t have to come from your current job. And you could always copy-paste the weird Power Point content into a better format for the purposes of applying for jobs. Or use a sample from a previous job or side hobbies/jobs or just writing a new sample, depending on the role.

    2. Coffee and Mountains*

      Oh, man, I feel you. I looked seriously for a job for about a year and a half. It was hard to find positions, I had a coworker get a job I really, really wanted, I interviewed, and I got rejected a bunch. I was SO discouraged and depressed.
      But… I’m happy to say that today is my last day at my current job. The only way out is through. You’ll get there, but you can only get a job if you apply for it.
      Good luck!!

    3. Ama*

      Last time I was job hunting due to near-burnout, I let myself do only a couple applications a week (I was also intentionally being very picky so I wasn’t ignoring a bunch of great postings or anything). I also had the writing sample problem, so what I usually did was send an older, more appropriate piece and note in my cover letter that the writing I did in my current job was largely internal policy documents that I wasn’t allowed to share so I had attached an article from the Writer job on my resume.

    4. Megs*

      Job hunting is seriously the worst. I’ve been basically job hunting since I left the private sector for law school in 2009 and it’s so easy to get discouraged. Law year was the worst by far – I finished a great but temporary two-year job in 2014, interviewed regularly for months and got no dang where. Then I stopped getting interviews for a while and got really depressed. I more or less gave up and got a job doing (relatively) low paying temp work. I’ve been trying to get back into the hunt recently and have even had a couple of interviews, so hopefully things will be on the upswing for both of us! You just have to keep at it, as much as that freaking blows.

    5. Triangle Pose*

      Can you take a job hunt staycation and reset? If you have vacation or PTO and you are at the point where you’re “exhausted every night after working a job I hate.” I’d say it’s worth it to take those days and spend mornings and afternoons aggressively applying/networking and evenings doing something that energizes you (socializing, exercising, reading for pleasure, etc.) and takes your mind of job hunting/your current horrible job.

  53. Rye-Ann*

    I’m just curious about peoples’ general thoughts about work friendships/making friends with people at work. I was reading some articles on this topic yesterday, and they seem to have one of two mindsets.

    1) Coworkers are not your friends, even if ya’ll are friendly with each other.
    2) People don’t make as many work friends as they used to/don’t seem to value work friendship as much, especially in America. But there are some benefits to having work friends, so maybe we should be doing more of that!

    How do you feel about making friends at work? Is there a difference between regular “friends” and “work friends”, or is it possible to become true friends with someone despite working with them? I suspect there is a cultural element to this, so if you answer this and feel comfortable saying where you’re from, I would be curious!

    1. Blue Anne*

      I’m totally in favor of making friends at work. My only rules on it are that I won’t add anyone on facebook until one of us has left the job, and I’m not pushing or going out of my way to make work friendships. If they happen, they happen, and that’s awesome!

      For me, being a geeky female who works in finance, it really doesn’t happen often. My colleagues are much more likely to want to talk about basketball than board games, no matter where I go. (Recently moved back from Scotland to Ohio and holds true in both places.) But I’m still in contact with a couple colleagues from my first job at a tech startup, and if I ran into guys like that in my current jobs, we would be besties.

    2. LawCat*

      I have co-workers that have become friends outside of work. I’ve had outside friends who ended up becoming co-workers. I like having co-worker friends, but only a few have become close friends. I do not have manager friends. I would love to be friends with my current manager because she’s an awesome person, but it’s been a mistake in the past to confuse a manager with a friend. I’m in the US.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      I’ve always had work friends but none have become ‘regular’ friendships. Like, we’ll go out for drinks after work or maybe text each other funny stuff or meet up on the weekend for an event (I even invited one to my wedding) but I would never go to them with my personal troubles like I would a regular friend. It’s still a friendship, but pretty superficial compared to the ones I have had since high school.

      I think they are important, and that it is possible to reach a deeper level with a coworker while still being able to work together effectively. Lately I’m finding that it’s difficult (if not impossible) to cultivate a work friendship if you are in a position of authority over everyone else.

    4. Megs*

      I think it’s really valuable to be friendly with coworkers, but I’m very particular about making “friends.” I’ll add anyone and everyone on LinkedIn, but in a year at my current job I’ve only added one person on Facebook, for example. I don’t think there are any hard and fast rules other than “be professional.” I’ve had at least one work friendship last close to a decade now but I don’t feel the need to seek that kind of thing out. I’ve got enough friends I’d like to see more of as it is!

    5. Librarian Ish*

      USA, Pacific NW here. I’m definitely of the first mindset – I’ll occasionally spend time with them outside of work, but no facebook friending, no chatting about life, etc. BUT I’ve happily become real friends with coworkers once one of us have moved on to different positions. In fact, I’m currently dating an ex-coworker.

      I am very careful not to specify that I don’t consider coworkers to be “real” friends – that’s a surefire way to _unmake_ any friends at work!

    6. fposte*

      Obligatory I’m-in-academics disclaimer: my closest friends work in my department. Our work wasn’t as close together when we became friends as it is now. Sometimes we just have to negotiate it. Sometimes we have to say we’re not talking about work for a while.

    7. New Reader*

      I had a bad experience early in my career where friendships outside of the workplace with coworkers that impacted on work. There were three of us that were very friendly outside of work for awhile, but then the two of them had a falling out and expected me to take sides. It made things at work pretty tense. Since then I’ve been careful to keep boundaries between work and personal. I do have people at work I’m friendly with and we’ll do lunch and such.

    8. Laura*

      My first workplace showed me that opening up to coworkers can get you into really hot water. I do NOT consider my coworkers friends. We are friendly and polite at work, but I’m never going to join the kickball team, or go to going-away happy hours, or friend them on Facebook.

      This is a somewhat unusual attitude to have in my very-young workplace. We are all just a few years removed from college, but I don’t feel that it’s beneficial or professional to become friends with coworkers.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        I’m right here with you now, Laura. I used to hang out with people from work outside of work, but I no longer want to talk about work outside of working hours (which inevitably came up), and one of the people I used to be close with, she and I have grown apart. Our lives are just really different now and we don’t have much in common, so I don’t really make an effort to keep that relationship beyond a working one.

    9. LiteralGirl*

      I have two “real” friends in my department that I will be leaving in a week to go to another part of the company. I’ve helped my office mate through his divorce, been a sounding board for the other on many different subjects (infertility, pregnancy, marriage, career development, etc.). I’m ready to move to another place and have that all become part of my personal life rather than my work life. I value their friendship, but it’s become too ingrained in my professional life – too much stress from something that has little to do with work. I’m excited for the change!

    10. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I met my best friend at work. Neither of us work there any longer and we didn’t really become friends until a few years after we met but we still hang out and vent together all the time. With wine and cupcakes. And wine cupcakes!

    11. Omne*

      I guess I’d be in favor of making friends at work, I married a co-worker.

      In general though I tend to keep them separate outside of that exception.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      I’m in the Midwest US. I have work friends and we do tell each other quite a lot of stuff, but I don’t seem to ever see them outside work. Other people I know are very friendly with work peeps off the job, but that seems to be down to personal dynamics, things they have in common other than work, etc.

      My rule about Facebook is very strict–no friending until one or both of us is no longer employed at the same place. People are, however, free to follow me on Twitter or follow my blog, since both are public. I don’t really talk about work on social media at all.

    13. AnotherFed*

      Aside from a few old college friends, all of my current friends are coworkers. Part of it is the nature of job and location – it’s a very rural area, and the place I work is the region’s largest employer (pretty much only white collar employer, if you count the contractors that support it). Even so, I’m much less likely to be good friends with someone in my immediate work group, and there’s always some awkwardness to resolve when friends shift roles.

    14. NicoleK*

      I’m friendly with people at work. And I have several former coworkers that have become friends (i.e. we did things outside of work, still keep in touch, share personal stuff and etc). I think it’s possible to develop true friendships at work or with people from work. The true friendships I have developed over time and wasn’t an instantaneous thing.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      I think if people are going to be friends in real life they have to agree on a plan of how to navigate work life. Not everyone can do this. Not everyone wants to do this. And other people just naturally fall into the friend role on off hours and the coworker role while working.

      I think for the friendship to go well, the coworkers have to have a similar value system and similar ethics. How often does this happen? Not a lot. I think that both people have to be concerned about their friend’s job almost as much as they are concerned about their own job- this means no backstabbing and candid, direct conversations when needed. Tricky part, real friends don’t make each other cover for the other one. They own their mistakes and they own their problems without bogging down the other friend.

      Just my opinion, but if you get one or two “life” friends from a job you are doing very well. Many friendships end when the job ends for one of the friends.

    16. Raia*

      I’m from the Midwest, in a customer service team-oriented job. I recently began a new job and am beginning to be friends with a coworker. We are definitely work friends only and because our work ethics and ideas/approaches are similar, we make great venting and creativity buddies. Sometimes we text after work to rant or bounce ideas, but it doesn’t usually veer into personal stuff. I’m not sure that ‘work friends’ is ideal for a more white collar job, since when I was a marketing coordinator I didn’t feel the need to make friends.

  54. TMA*

    This has happened two times in the past few months, so I’m realizing this is something I need to figure out how to deal with.

    When I am meeting with someone who is hostile toward me (either because they disagree with a decision I’m communicating–not necessarily a decision I’ve made–or because they are annoyed at the situation that I’m communicating–again, not necessarily because of something I’ve done), I get emotional. No tears, but I definitely start to feel myself well up. I don’t think it’s noticeable, and I’m still able to communicate what I need to and still remain professional. BUT this isn’t a professional response, and I really want to stop.

    I guess, I feel caught off-guard because I generally assume that people are going to be kind and helpful, but that doesn’t always happen. Obviously.

    Am I alone in this? How do you all deal with hostile people at work?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Yeahhh this happens to me too. The worst is the big lump in my throat. I can’t make it stop, but it has gotten better with age. I think the only thing that helps is to take a couple of seconds to do some deep breathing (as subtly as possible).

      I know that’s not that helpful, but best of luck finding something that works for you. Much commiseration.

    2. Triangle Pose*

      Say to yourself “Hm, this person seems upset. Separate and apart from that upset reaction, we can probably fix [whatever the actually problem is].” And then shift your focus to the real problem with a neutral feeling, the way you would a normal problem that comes up.

      I find this form of compartmentalization to be really helpful. When I read an email or hear something that sounds hostile or accusatory of my work, my interpretation or something or my communication style, I try to separate “the feeling” from whatever the real problem is. The real problem is fixable and I don’t have to react or internalize the other person’s hostility/upset feelings.

    3. Headachey*

      Long ago there was a discussion in a thread about hostile interactions where someone mentioned they shut it down/reset the vibe of the conversation by saying something like “You know, this conversation is increasingly adversarial, and I’m not sure why.”

      That really stuck with me, and I actually used that wording several months ago in a conversation with a contractor who was going off the rails in her interactions with our team. She was starting to wind up again and I said the exact phrase above – she stopped, paused, and said “Yes, you’re right.” And then calmed the eff down and we were able to have a real conversation. It seemed to redirect her from a really defensive mode and back to the experienced professional she had been before, without me pointing out that she was being unreasonable. And since I didn’t have to do that, I was able to remain calm and composed as well.

      Having an alternative like that in my pocket was so helpful going into the conversation – like Triangle Pose said, something that helps you compartmentalize or depersonalize the interaction can be hugely useful.

    4. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Counseling?

      I know my emotional response is because I grew up in a violent household. When people get defensive at work it triggers all sorts of reactions that don’t trigger in the normal person. Counseling helped me.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I reported a situation to a boss, as per company policy.
      He blew up at me.
      It was all too weird. He was a good boss. I was following company policy. The problem had nothing to do with him except for the part that as a boss he had to be aware of the problem.

      So I waited for a pause in his blow up. Then I said, “Okay, that was way too much reaction for this situation. I don’t know what I have done to offend you, but clearly I have done something. Please understand that I never want to offend you and I would never knowingly offend you. Matter of fact, I think very highly of you as a professional. Company policy is to report X. I reported X. You do as you see best.”

      I got through all that by focusing on my concern for him. I just let go of whatever feelings flew at me, and there were several because this NICE boss was YELLING at me! oh, crap, crap.

      Think of ways to depersonalize the discomfort. For me an easy way is to say, “this person is upset and needs me to help them with something.”
      OTH, there are times where I can find points I agree on. “Yeah, I would be pissed if they painted my office walls black. I don’t think I would have thrown my desk across the room but I do understand disliking black walls.”
      I tend to believe that when my emotions come up, it is because I am doing something to pull the situation in close to me. I do a reality check and try to find ways to make it less close. “Oh, yeah, this makes sense. Most people would be a little ticked if the info they needed was two weeks late in arriving.” OR “I have done this. I have lost my cool when the boss said Stupid Thing.”
      It takes practice to talk ourselves down and I’d recommend having several tools to rotate through. The more situations you handle the less of an issue this is, because you will see yourself handling the situation and know that you CAN handle it. Once in a while you can tell yourself, “Just because this person is very upset, does not automatically mean I have to get very upset.”
      Sometimes you can release your own emotions just by indicating to the person, “I have been in a similar situation myself and I know how upsetting it is.”

      In my story here, it turned out that some former employees had screwed over my boss. He was flashing back to that time and lashed out at me. We talked it out and never had another problem.

  55. jamieeee*

    This is probably a dumb question, but when you leave a company and have unused PTO, is that taxed at your normal tax rate, or at a different rate? I’m in the U.S. (Washington State).

    1. F.*

      While they may withhold a straight 20% (or another rate), in the end, when you file your federal taxes and compute your actual tax liability, it is just like the rest of your payroll income and is taxed the same. I can’t speak to your state taxes, though.

    4. Alston*

      My state taxes it as a bonus which I think was 25%, which is higher than what normally comes out of my pay check.

      1. jamieeee*

        Aha. When I googled this question before posting here, I saw that some people were taxed at 25% and were surprised. This explains that. Thanks.

        1. Ama*

          Also just be forewarned that if you get taxed at your normal pay rate but you have a significant amount of PTO paid out and it covers days you are working at the new job, you may end up owing a bunch of extra taxes. I didn’t take any time off last time I switched jobs but had almost a month’s worth of PTO paid out — since it, along with my paychecks at both jobs, got taxed as if I was making Y dollars a year, but I actually made Y+ a month of PTO in income, I ended up with a really high tax bill that year. I luckily had savings to cover it but I wish someone had warned me beforehand.

    5. LCL*

      Washington State doesn’t have an income tax, period. Yet. So it’s just wages for your federal return.

      1. Seattle Writer Gal*

        That is correct. No income tax in WA state. I don’t recall having to pay extra taxes on paid out PTO when changing jobs and I have changed jobs several times here in the past 10 years.

    6. Blurple*

      I’m in WA as well– it’s taxed as a bonus here, which is higher than would it would be taxed as a wage when used. So it’s in your best interest to use it before you leave your company.

      At least this is what folks I’ve worked with (and HR) have told me.

  56. KimberlyR*

    I’m at the end of my rope with my job. I wasn’t a huge fan of my main job but did it for the paycheck (which is nothing fabulous but its an entry-level job with no degree required.) There was an additional role that needed to be taken on and my only coworker at my remote office location didn’t want to do it (this coworker technically doesn’t work in the office with me for the most part-he works out in the “field” somewhat) so the additional role was assigned to me. I was willing to take on extra work and I thought it was a fairly straight-forward role in dealing with Clients. But it has turned out to be a somewhat team lead role (not exactly, but close enough in terms of authority to convey what I mean) for employees out in the field. I am not a manager and have never wanted to manage people. I don’t have the skill set or personality for it. When one of these employees screws up, I am the person the Clients turn to, and for many of the employees, I’m the one who has to talk to them about the issue, reprimand them, whatever. I hate it! I have anxiety and having to deal with all this stuff makes my anxiety worse. I put off doing important stuff because it makes me so anxious. And they have recently decided that we are not going after the clients aggressively enough (we are leaving money on the table!) so I am having additional training and have to step up sales and marketing tactics, all of which ALSO make me anxious! I don’t do sales and marketing. I don’t want to. Its just not my thing.

    In addition, I am not compensated for this stuff. We can earn bonuses based on numbers and revenue, but for the day to day time and work I put in, I still make the same entry-level pay from the previous role (I do both simultaneously.) The other people who do this similar role in other branches are all Branch Managers and Directors, so they are all paid a salary. I am paid hourly, and not much at that. So I resent doing this work for not much pay, and that includes the occasional weekend or after-hours work that comes with it.

    I had started to look around for a new job and took the risk of mentioning to my boss that I was ready to move out of these roles. I will be transitioning to another department and someone will have to take my place. They were going to hire someone, then decided to move someone from another branch to take my place so they hired for her role instead. I waited for that to happen, and for that person to be trained. When my replacement was supposed to come here, she went out on medical leave, then quit. So now we do have to hire for my position and then I have to train that person. So a few months down the line and I still haven’t been able to transition into my new role. I really like my company and I want to stay with them but I’m frustrated and hate coming in to work everyday. I really debate calling in every day just because I don’t want to come in.

    How can I get through the time I have left in this role and I get to move departments?

    1. Megs*

      Hang in there! My mom recently transitioned out of a management position and she’s so much happier. I guess just hang on and count the days, and do your best to keep your company on track getting that replacement. There’s nothing at all wrong with not wanting to deal with all that junk, especially if you’re not getting compensated for it. My mom was actually losing money as most of her compensation is commissions and the manager “bonus” didn’t make up for the lost sales time.

  57. ExtraGuac*

    Is this an interview? I got an email from a company I applied to that stated “Our immediate need is to hire someone with substantive experience in X…I’d like to talk with you further about how you can meet our needs.” I have no experience in X. I am now meeting this company for lunch next week. Is this an interview or just a discussion? They know I have no experience in X- do I stand a chance with them at all?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s an interview– it’s a discussion to see if they want to move forward. Treat it as such. It sounds like they realize you don’t have that experience but they want to see if you might be a fit for something else.

  58. SJ*

    My resume was passed along to someone hiring for a cool position, and the person who passed it along told me on Tuesday that I “may” hear from him this week. So I’m just… waiting. Anxiously.

    Since I know these things often take much longer than we’d like, when should I follow up if I don’t hear from him, since “maybe this week” isn’t exactly a clear indicator of time? And how exactly should I follow up? Should I get in touch with the person who passed the resume along, or should I get in touch with the guy directly? (I wasn’t given his contact info, but I can easily find his email address using his name.)

    1. Anon Moose*

      Keep in mind that its summer, and a week can turn into two really quickly, not to mention vacation.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Definitely don’t get in touch with the guy directly. Do not.

      If you’re close to the person who passed your resume along, it would be appropriate to ask about it in a few of weeks – always assume things will take longer than they say. If you’re not close to the person who passed it on though, I would just let it be. They have your resume and know you’re interested and they’ll contact you if they’re interested in moving forward.

      I know it’s easier said than done, but you also need to mentally move on from this. Being anxious isn’t going to make the process happen any faster. Like AAM says, let it be a pleasant surprise when/if they do call you.

      1. SJ*

        I’m usually a pro at mentally moving on — I’ve been job searching for a year and have reached a point of total apathy about it, honestly, and it’s been my mantra for all my job-searching friends as well. But having been forwarded numerous emails from various people at this institution all saying my resume is awesome and I’d be a great fit and they’re excited to talk to me, etc. etc., it’s way harder to get over that “holy crap, am I actually a desirable candidate after all despite the crap heap that was this past year?” feeling that I haven’t had in ages.

        Still! You are absolutely right and I’m going to try to put it out of my mind.

        1. Ama*

          You say “institution.” Is it academia? Because if so, multiply any period they tell you for hiring timelines by three.

          1. SJ*

            Yep! I don’t think this position is even posted online yet, so I have no idea what the hiring timeline is like. I was just going off the “he’ll get in touch with you this week” bit.

            2. Ama*

              Oh, well if the position isn’t even posted yet … it might be a while. Granted all institutions are different, but at my last academic position all jobs had to be posted and cleared by central HR, who were notoriously slow and prone to taking two week vacations in the summer without leaving any alternate contacts. You weren’t allowed to bring anyone in for an interview unless they had applied through the system, which couldn’t be done unless the job had been posted… etc., etc.

              It was also not uncommon for the actual hiring managers to not realize any of this until they started the posting process, so I would not be surprised if your contact just assumed everything would be ready to go this week only to have to wait out some bureaucracy.

  59. Sparkly Librarian*

    I feel like I’ve hit a career milestone: I’ve graduated to a two-page resume. Not even one-and-a-third, even. Once I added my current position, and Little Free Library stewardship under (library-related) volunteer and committee work, it’s two pages without any space left. (I can take off the LFL when I have a promotion to add to the top, and for iterations after that I can probably leave off the private sector work entirely.)

    3. Hoopla*

      I cannot wait until I have enough experience and accomplishments to warrant a 2 page resume. I still probably have a good 10 years to go where my ‘non-professional’ jobs will probably slide off the end and my professional career will need over a page to be represented

      1. Overeducated*

        I have a 2 page resume because getting a foothold in my field tends to include a lot of internships and part time work starting out, and showing that practical experience has been important to not coming across as “overeducated,” but I also can’t wait until I have enough higher level professional accomplishments to let some of the earliest or least relevant stuff drop off.

  60. EA*

    My friend has been unhappily working at her job for 4 years- for the past 2 years, she has been frantically looking for a new one. She has had about 20-30 interview over the past 2 years. She can get interviews, but not offers. I called her references to see if that was the issue, and it was not (I posed as a prospective job).

    I have done mock interviews for her, and I think she comes off bad personality wise. She tries to be professional/mature, and it comes off as cold and weird. I think that people want to hire someone who has a good personality as well as being qualifies. She isn’t like that in real life at. I have tried to gently coach her on being more causal or making more small talk, but she thinks that this stuff shouldnt matter and they should hire her because she is competent.

    I also have told her to try and get feedback, and so far she has not gotten anything helpful. Does anyone have suggestions for how I can phrase this differently?

    1. jamieeee*

      Could you conduct another mock interview with her, but tape it so she can see herself? You could set up the camera so that it’s facing her directly (rather than a side view). That way she can see her facial expressions clearly, too. If she’s much different in interviews than in real life, maybe she’ll be surprised at what she sees?

    2. Adam V*

      > they should hire her because she is competent

      Everyone* they interview is competent. That’s the minimum bar.

      You could tell her “They’re looking for more than that – and given that they’re going to be around you for most of their waking hours, they want to know that you’re someone they’ll enjoy spending time with. You don’t have to come across as ‘I want to be your new best friend’, but it’s best if they think you’re friendly, generally happy, someone they can banter with while they’re waiting for the boss to get out of his running-long meeting.”

      Chances are you’ve already told her all of that, though. So… I dunno what else to say. Do you have any other friends who are in charge of hiring in their departments? If she heard it from multiple people, maybe it would sink in.

    3. fposte*

      In addition to the other good points above, can you frame in terms of what you like about her and what you’re not seeing in her interview? “They’re going to work with the you I know, who’s funny and wry and kind, but the interview face you show doesn’t let them see her. And most places would rather work with her than that interview face, so why not give her a chance?”

    4. Joanna*

      Perhaps getting involved in some local professional meetup/discussion groups might give her a good chance to practice conversation on that is more relaxed but still professionally appropriate?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Switch roles.
      She can’t learn what she has not seen.
      Let her interview YOU.
      For one thing, she will see your ease and, second thing, it will make her think about what an interviewer sees.

  61. Wendy Darling*

    In the ongoing saga of my new job being a dumpster fire…

    My boss cancelled our one on one meeting yesterday 10 minutes before the meeting. We both normally work remote but I come into the office one day a week specifically for that meeting. It’s a 20 minute drive, so by the time she got around to cancelling I was already most of the way there. (Normally I would have been in the building already but traffic was appalling.) No email saying why. No explanation. Just an Outlook meeting cancellation right before the meeting.

    I was peeved but assumed she must have had an emergency… until I realized she was actually in the office, she just decided she’d rather stay in another meeting than come to ours. She came out later and said hello to me but didn’t mention the meeting (and I didn’t either because I was REALLY MAD and wasn’t sure I could be civil).

    Last week she was 10+ minutes late to our meeting. The week before that she changed it from an in person meeting to a phone meeting the morning of. I was starting to suspect she had no respect for my time but this sort of clinched it.

    Also they then got catered lunch for everyone except me.

    I had basically just gotten to a place where I was like, I don’t like this job but it’s not THAT bad! I mean sometimes management is bonkers but I can live with this for a year to bank experience! Now I am having a tough time getting back to that place. :/

    1. Girasol*

      Nothing to offer but sympathy, plenty of it. It’s tough when you get needled by lots of tiny indignities, any one of which isn’t a big deal so you can’t complain, but they pile up.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        It also hit me right in a sore spot because in grad school my PI would regularly stand me up for meetings and then claim it was my fault and punish me for it by doing things like withholding assistance I needed to do my work, sometimes for weeks at a time. (I once made no progress on my thesis for 6 weeks because I needed her to approve something before I moved on and she got upset that I didn’t email her an unsolicited reminder about our weekly meeting so she refused to speak to me for the rest of the summer.)

        If this turns into something like that I’m quitting. My mental health cannot take another round of that manipulative crap.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Oh man, this is the WORST. My previous manager used to do this all the time, or she would just flake out and forget about a conflict with our meeting like “taking her kids to school” or “getting her hair done.” It really irked me because she was on Eastern time and I was on Pacific, so often I was waking up for 6:00 or 7:00am calls just to get on her calendar and then…hold music for 15 minutes. I eventually reached a point where I realized that she literally didn’t think of time the same way I did, and was maybe incapable of realizing that keeping time commitments was a thing that mattered to people; that was still pretty annoying, but it did help me get away from a narrative that she was willfully disrespecting my time out of malice.

      I wish I had more advice, but all I really have is assurance that once you’re on the other side in a new position, the memories can be more funny than irritating. Good luck!

  62. Ann Furthermore*

    Mini vent….applied for a job that was a perfect match for my skill set, with a company I’d love to work for. The recruiter reached out to me and said my qualifications were great, but oh by the way, the position requires a Top Secret clearance, which I don’t have. WHY DIDN’T YOU PUT THAT IN THE JOB DESCRIPTION? Grrr.

    1. Adam V*

      Don’t they take forever to get, too? So you’d think they’d make it clear to everyone not to waste their time unless they already had one.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Yeah, it usually takes 12 to 18 months to get one. I replied and said I’ve had regular background checks done before, since my company requires them as a condition of employment. I also said I’d be happy to get the paperwork filled out right away to get the ball rolling as soon as possible, instead of waiting to do it until I was hired, thinking maybe that would shave a few weeks off the process. Not much, when you’re talking about 12 to 18 months, but better than nothing. He replied and said he’d let me know if anything opened up not requiring the clearance. Sigh.

        Just out of curiosity I downloaded the SF86, the questionnaire you have to complete. 127 pages! Most of it wouldn’t apply to me, since there are many questions about military service, investments in foreign countries, working for foreign governments, and so on. But still — 127 pages!

        1. Omne*

          At lot of pages are duplicates for different situations though. Even so I’m glad that when I had to get TS clearance in the military in the 80’s we didn’t have to fill out anything like this.

    3. Pwyll*

      Wait, did they tell you that you needed to bring your own Top Secret clearance? Usually when that’s a requirement it means you won’t be able to start until the process has completed, not that you’re supposed to magically already have it. When I worked in government, I was told the agency owned my clearance, it didn’t continue with me.

      But, I never worked in defense, so perhaps it’s different for defense contractors?

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        I’m not sure how it works. I would think if you’ve had one in the past, reactivating it would be a lot quicker than starting the process from the beginning. So maybe it’s you can start working while your old one is being resurrected or something.

        1. TMA*

          Not necessarily true. It takes less time, but it still is time consuming and something that the employer is banking on you doing once you are employed. You typically can’t start working on the clearance process (i.e. mounds and mounds of e-paperwork) until you are employed, because you have to be sponsored by your employer. Private citizens can’t just get a clearance without sponsorship from a Fed agency/contractor.

      2. Red Rose*

        My husband has a Top Secret clearance and works in defense contracting. The way I understand it is the employer holds it, and when he has changed employers, he had to fill out some paperwork to get it transferred to the new company.

    4. TMA*

      Usually you don’t have to bring a current clearance to a job requiring a clearance. Employers plan on starting this process once you are hired and on-boarded. There is typically work you can do before your clearance goes through with an exception being if your work will be in a restricted space. In that case, you’ll basically be doing busy work in your non-permanent location until your clearance goes through. Right now OPM is estimating 12 months as long as your work and living locations are simple and you’ve traveled overseas minimally.

      If you’re still interested in the job, go for it, and if you have questions about the clearance, ask the recruiter/interviewer.

  63. Lunch Meat*

    Is there anything I can do to support my LGBT coworkers after Orlando if I’m not sure I have any? There are a couple I think might be but I think it would be intrusive to ask. And even if I did know, I’m not sure what to say. We’re in the Bible Belt, in a big city but most people are still not out in corporate environments. Would it be enough to just put up a rainbow at my desk?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Or an HRC sticker! I know people have complicated relationships to the organization but it’s a pretty subtle symbol of support if you’re in a place that’s not as supportive.

      I wouldn’t ask people if they’re LGBTQ though.

    2. ginger ale for all*

      I think since it is election season, to pay attention to all the candidates stances on LGBT issues, gun violence, etc might be key. And I mean all candidates – from the small local acorns to the big oak tree of president. Know what you want to see from your officials and your own stance on these issues.

    3. Theo*

      I am the queer coworker, and while I can say with big capital letters Yes It Is Intrusive To Ask, I don’t necessarily know what to tell you. The biggest thing, for me, would be speak up the instant you hear any of your cis straight coworkers being awful (awful encompasses homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc–it’s a particularly painful intersection this time). Make it clear hate speech has no place in the office if you hear it. Speak up when people try to erase that it was a hate crime specifically against gay/queer Latinxs.

      Does your office culture allow charitable fundraisers? If so, maybe head one up that helps the victims and their families. Advocate for an inclusive workplace. Advocate that your ENDA covers gender, sexuality, and gender expression. I know that doesn’t necessarily seem linked to the immediate tragedy, but it will help ongoing, to know that their workplace has their backs–in Orlando, once these folks are out of the hospital, they could be legally fired for being gay. We’re already all so afraid, you know? Anything that lifts that fear helps.

      I live in Boston, where we see rainbow flags everything, so YMMV; that would feel like a token sign to me–i.e., showing support without actually doing anything–but I know things are really different in different parts of the country. Maybe a Safe Space sticker? Google should throw a couple versions at you.

      1. Lunch Meat*

        Thank you. My workplace seems pretty supportive, to me–our last president but one was lesbian and I don’t remember any comments about it at all that didn’t treat it as normal. I will try hard to pay more attention. Our employee handbook includes no discrimination on sexual orientation, but I’ll ask about getting gender and gender expression added.

        This has triggered my depression hard, so I’m trying not to let my reaction be motivated by *my* need to feel better. I really, really appreciate your input. Thank you, and I’m so sorry that this violence is still happening.

        1. asteramella*

          Please look into not only adding gender/gender identity/gender expression/trans status to your handbook, but actually evaluating policies in your workplace. The EEOC has come out with a wealth of information on LGBT-friendly work policies this year. If it helps, you can frame it as wanting to ensure that your company is in compliance with the new EEOC sex discrimination guidance.

    4. Pearl*

      Speaking as someone who is closeted at work, I would freak out if someone walked up and asked if I’m a lesbian, so definitely stick with your instinct not to ask. Personally, I do not share this at work and would not want someone to ask because then it puts me in a position of instantly having to decide whether to lie (probably badly) or out myself.

      A rainbow or a safe space sticker would be a good step. I still probably wouldn’t talk to anybody about it, but I *would* feel slightly more comfortable around you.

      1. Lunch Meat*

        Thank you, I appreciate your input. I’ll go with just the sticker and keep my ears open for any hateful comments to respond to them.

    5. NacSacJack*

      Or a Safe Space sticker – its a pink triangle surrounded by a green circle – put out by AT&T in the 80s and still in use today.

    6. Tau*

      Yep, definitely Do Not Ask (says another queer person). However, something you *can* do is make sure to phrase discussions in such a way to ensure it doesn’t sound like you think everyone around you is straight. I have a hard time putting my finger on examples right now, but I find you can often *tell* if someone is assuming that nobody of the group they are talking about could possibly be listening even if they’re not being overtly rude and it is so, so uncomfortable. Last week, my senior coworker actually said something like “well, I’d know if we had any X in the department” where I am X and not out about X and it was agonizing and I almost shouted “not if they don’t TELL you about it you idiot” but I didn’t because a) neither diplomatic nor professional b) I am Narnia levels of closeted about X.

      …anyway! Don’t do that sort of thing.

      Also, rainbows and suchlike can be a powerful symbol of support. Just – knowing that the person wants to support you and have your back. It can mean a lot.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Narnia levels of closeted! <3 I am delighted by your turn of phrase.

    7. Librarian Ish*

      Also queer, also closeted at work. Personally, I’d rather hear about you trying to make changes outside of work – yeah, I appreciate the moral support, but your “best wishes” only go so far, whereas voting might make some more substantial changes.

      I think what I can add that hasn’t been mentioned yet is just…acknowledge it? Seriously, I listened for days about Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech. Whereas I came in Monday to see a “Special Note” from our campus pastor (I work at a religious institution) about the events on Sunday…that turned out to be a devotional about the Stanley Cup. Felt like a gut punch. It seems only my queer friends are talking about it. Straight folks are silent. It hurts.

  64. Nunya*

    I manage a critical function in my department, but don’t have any direct reports. A newish person in a related department is tasked with helping me in a limited capacity, as well as being point on one particular aspect of the bigger workflow (which was decided on as part of this person’s hiring process).
    This person is very enthused and proactive, to the point of calling meetings to discuss the year in review as relates to the function, sending out manifestos stating her annoyance with not being allowed to take on more, etc.
    Her supervisor is capable, but new to managing a department, and maybe less confident in dealing with boundaries. My supervisor has little to do with the daily functions of my job, has no say over my ‘helper’, but can discuss bigger picture things with the other supervisors.
    We’re in academia, so hierarchy means a lot. If I don’t maintain a decent level of oversight, I might very well find myself managed from below, which sucks mightily and has happened to other people in my department.
    How do I check the pushy bossiness without crushing the enthusiasm or coming across like some of my job-hoarding colleagues? I’m pretty much at the end of my career trajectory, so I’m not worried about climbing the ranks, just being able to do what I do without being chivvied by a junior coworker.

    1. fposte*

      Can you be more specific about what she’s doing specifically to *you*? You can ignore manifestos and skip meetings, so I don’t see much need for pushback there.

  65. it will happen*

    I have a question and hope some can help me here – I have a friend / co-worker who has been here a long time – and over time she has been getting more and more negative about the company and about other coworkers to the point that is is getting really destructive. She is mid management and she says that all upper management and same level managers along with many lower level employees are dumb, don’t know what they are doing, do things wrong etc. She is never told anything, everything always falls on her and her department, everyone does everything so wrong that they just then have to fix everything. I have tried talking to her when she specifically brings things to me – I tell her she should talk to her supervisor, the other co-worker, the other manager etc – I tell her she should give suggestions and feedback on how to make the process or procedure better. At that point she will generally say it won’t do any good, she isn’t listened to and throw her hands up. I have told her that I am trying to be a positive person and don’t want to listen to negativity but the problem is she has an office near mine and I can hear her (with out straining to hear) bashing people all the time.

    I am at the point now where I think that what she is doing is hurting others and the company enough that I need to have one final very direct conversation with her – and am ready to do that. I want to stress that she is a manager and cannot act this way. Any suggestions for talking points that might get through to her? She is very good at saying what someone wants to hear in the moment and then doing what she wants. I imagine if she gets mad enough at me she will just tone it down so I don’t hear it and probably ignore me after that – so then the behaviour will just go on.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t see where having yet another talk with her is going to change anything; she already knows you don’t like it, that’s not changing her, and it’s not your job to bring her around. I think your choice is either to share your concerns with somebody higher–your manager would be a good possibility–or to detach from the issue.

  66. Help!*

    I have very good reason to believe that my department will be laid off by the end of the year, so I am actively job searching. It was time to anyway, I’m bored and don’t feel challenged 95% of the time. I’ve always wanted to go to law school, but have been warned off for many reasons and my current career trajectory (not necessarily one I want to be in) doesn’t necessarily require grad school but I love the idea of learning but the idea of paying just to go doesn’t make sense.

    That said, I just don’t know what to apply for. I’m not interested in continuing to work in my industry (employee benefits) unless I did go to law school and eventually moved into an attorney role because I enjoy that side of it. That said I don’t really love what I do today but I’ve been promoted three times in three years because I’m good at it. My management continually gives me clients where the relationship is floundering, I turn it around and have an excellent track record of getting multi-year contracts signed when there have been threats to leave entirely. I like the part of my job that requires relationship building but I don’t know how to effectively translate this skill to paper and I second guess every application I think about sending because I feel like I don’t meet any of the qualifications.

    How do I get over this feeling of incompetency and figure out the direction I want to take

    1. Dawn*

      “I like the part of my job that requires relationship building”

      Look into client manager positions. Those can be sales-based or those can be more hand-holding, but either way there’s an absolute need for people who are good at relationship building, and the fact you said ” I turn it around and have an excellent track record of getting multi-year contracts signed when there have been threats to leave entirely”… ohhhhhhh my god that is GOLD right there.

      But yeah, start looking around for client manager or client relationship manager positions and go from there, I’ll bet you’ll find some interesting stuff!

    2. MsMaryMary*

      I agree that a relationship manager type role might be a good fit if you like the client interaction piece. Look for client manager, client service director, account executive, relationship manager, etc

      There are also a lot of compliance-related roles that don’t require a law degree. Especially if you have or are willing to get adesignation like a CEBS, or something more specialized like a HIPAA certification.

      1. asteramella*

        Definitely look into compliance positions. There are a ton of interesting options in the employee benefits space. I work in that type of role and love keeping on top of the ADA, EEOC wellness regulations, ERISA, HHS ACA regulations, and so on. I am not a lawyer but have always been interested in law.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I mean… if you directly report and they have the authority to manager your workload, schedule etc. they aren’t your peer, they’re your manager regardless of title or pay.

      1. Malachite*

        Thanks for confirming. This person isn’t my manager but tries to do all of that and I’m starting to push back but I don’t know where to start. My actual manager knows but doesn’t try to stop it.

    2. Megs*

      I guess it depends? At my job, I’ve been increasingly put in positions where I’m overseeing other people’s work, but I don’t have a different title or get paid more or anything so I suppose that more or less makes me a peer? It’s kind of stressful and I’d honestly rather have the formal authority but that’s just how my workplace operates.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe we need a little more to go on?
      If you are a new hire, then it could be that she has been assigned to train or watch you.

      OTH, this could be a know-it-all who sticks her nose into everything.

      It’s hard to tell based on what you here, but yes, I have had plenty of people who were not my boss help me get launched in a new job or new project on a job. This happens when it is just not practical to have the new hire wait for the boss to be available.

      And there are times where I have had to say, “Bob is my boss, so I will go with what he tells me to do.”
      Not sure what applies to your setting. Hope this helps a little at any rate.

  68. Katniss*

    I have a question that I’m just curious about:

    What reasons do offices have to ban eating at desks, if the job isn’t client facing? It’s something I’m really baffled by.

        1. bb-great*

          No, but it’s easier to clean one room super thoroughly for food waste than an entire office.

        2. CMT*

          Yeah, but if food is only in kitchens it’s a lot easier to contain and police messiness.

      2. Rob Lowe can't read*

        This is why eating outside the break room was outright banned (and enforced) at my last job and is highly discouraged at my current one. Most employees at my current job do eat in their offices anyway (break room has one table and four chairs, plus a couch that seats 3, for about 100 staff members).

    2. Excel Slayer*

      Insects? Smells? Fear of desks not being clean enough? Worry that employees will be eating when they should be working? Fear of someone with an allergy reacting to something?

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Maybe wanting people to actually take a lunch away from work? Either so that they’ll actually take a break, or so that they don’t risk overtime or folks leaving early because they worked through lunch?

    4. Belle*

      We want our employees to be less accessible on lunch (our state requires you to take an uninterrupted lunch break for hourly employees) and we don’t want people asking questions while they are on lunch. Smells, allergies, insects, mice, etc also played into our decision not to allow it.

    5. Pwyll*

      I worked somewhere that made you leave the building for lunch unless you had a medical reason not to (there was a big food court across the street). The rumor was that they were sued for people reading e-mails during lunch and not getting paid for it, so the company made the heavy handed decision to make that impossible.

    6. Rebecca*

      I hope my employer doesn’t do this. I have no other place to eat, and if I wasn’t allowed to eat at my desk, I’d have to go outside and find a spot, regardless of the weather. That would be fun in the winter months in the Northeast.

      1. Laura*

        Same here, except it’s well over 100 degrees for a good chunk of the year. I wouldn’t want to go outside for lunch and come back dripping in sweat.

        I’m pretty solitary and prefer eating alone at my desk.

  69. Ann Furthermore*

    So…I’m actively job searching. My department is going to get outsourced in the next couple years, plus the whole place has taken on a real “corporate overlord” feel in the last few months since the old CEO retired.

    There’s a great company in my city with a fantastic reputation. It’s very large, nationally known, with at least 5000 employees. There are several job postings that I qualify for. I’ve submitted my resume for 3. At what point do I start looking desperate? They’re all similar (Senior Business Analyst, Senior Business Systems Analyst, Senior Staff Systems Analyst, etc) so it’s not like I’m taking a scattershot approach and applying for everything from Staff Accountant to Marketing Manager or something like that. If there are many similar sounding positions that you feel you qualify for, is it OK to apply for all of them? Or should you pick and choose?

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      I don’t know if there is a limit, per se…but I personally don’t think that I would apply for more than 2-3 in a short period of time, even though they are similar.

      I think you’re fine where you’re at right now, but if you apply to anything else, I would be *very* carefully considering if it is what you want to do, and if you are truly qualified.

  70. Browneyedgirl*

    So, after four years as an intern I was structurally laid off in December. I applied everywhere. I finally found a new job in May. I was sent for a week of training out of town and had tickets for another week of training. I worked twelve hour days my first week in the office to help get things back on track… And then after only nine days in my new office the company’s contract in my city was canceled. I stayed on one more week to help shut down the office, but now I’m unemployed again and I’m just so freaking tired. I don’t know what to do. I’ve applied to jobs in my field, related jobs, and completely unrelated jobs. I just want something stable. Suggestions?

    2. AnoninTexas*

      This isn’t the answer you’re looking for, but what about substitute teaching? It’ll pay the bills until something comes through. Try public and private schools. If you have a degree and no criminal record, you’ll get a job. And if you have an interview, you just tell them you can’t sub on that day. Good luck.

  71. Typo*

    Today is my last day at my current job and for the past few days I’ve been sitting in on interviews with candidates for my replacement. I told one candidate to email me any questions about my position because we ran out of time for questions during the interview because another interviewer was running late. She sent me an email with standard questions about the position that I’m happy to answer and also asked “off the record” if I enjoy working with my supervisors. Honestly, there are mixed things I could say on that topic (things I definitely would have liked to know going into this job) but I definitely don’t want to say anything negative about my bosses or the company on my company email address (which they will have access to after I’m gone).

    Should I just ignore the question? Respond in an extremely generic way? Encourage her to contact me via phone? I want to be honest, but I don’t want to damage my relationship with my supervisors as references over this. So far this candidate is not the front runner for the position, but has not been eliminated from the running, so there is a chance that it may be offered to her.

    2. alice*

      Can’t you say something truthful while hinting at the negatives? If, for example, the job requires long hours, you could say, “Putting in 100% all the time is extremely valued.” Or if communication between departments is bad, you could say, “Initiative to get things done is vital to your success here.”

    3. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

      You could frame it as a positive. “The supervisory style is great for someone who works well independently and values autonomy” vs “the supervisory style is great for someone who likes close collaboration with management.” “He is a great manager for someone who works best when things are flexible and works well making changes on the fly” vs “he is a great manager for someone who values predictability and works well with established systems.”

      1. Overeducated*

        Haha, I had to do that for prospective grad students working with my advisor. “Her supervisory style is best for people who prefer to work very independently and shape their own projects.” “Oh, I like working independently!” “I mean REALLY, REALLY independently. Oh, and it’s best if you come in with your own data source because Advisor doesn’t do the type of work grad students can collaborate on.” (They never really seem to get that that’s a warning! But most of the ones I tried to warn have tried to switch advisors after a year or two, except for the one who actually did come in with her own data source and would probably do the work on her own as a hobby if she could.)

    4. Christopher Tracy*

      Have her call you. Then you can be honest without badmouthing your employer or saying anything in email they wouldn’t like.

  72. Carissa*

    Family member got a job at a big-box store. Had 4 days of training, 9 hours per day (1 hour was lunch). Was told there is additional training that has to be completed in 6-8 months, but you can only train 15 minutes per day *and* you have to ask your supervisor if you can train. Since they are really understaffed currently, asking to train is usually met with a no.

    Has anyone heard of anything similar? And what kind of training take an additional 6-8 months and can only be done in 15 minute increments?? Sounds crazy but family member was lucky to get the job (recently had to walk away from 1st job out of school due to many factors) and it getting positive feedback from supervisor and coworkers (supervisor told them they were quote “one hell of a good worker”) so trying to stick it out and do well, just concerned about getting that training done.

    1. Cristina in England*

      Is it something like watching required health and safety videos? I had to do that once for a job.

      1. Lily Evans*

        I had to do that at a similar store too. We’d have to go up to the office with a super old computer and watch videos and take quizzes about compliance and safety things. It was pretty inconsistent scheduling-wise and I’m pretty sure that the “trainings” happened sporadically for the entire two years I was employed there.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If the boss is not worried then assure your family member not to worry about it. It could be safety/security/personnel policies and other stuff like that.
      It’s pretty normal for retailers to set up training and then never make time for the employees to do it.

  73. T3k*

    So, just something that’s been on my mind a lot and is troubling to me. I came across some threads on various sites that talked about people who lie on their resumes from skills to experience. Is this a common thing like it feels? I mean, I’ve even seen the guest speaker at a college graduation say they even lied on their resume to get their first job. It’s making me feel my resume is hopeless if the hiring manager thinks I’m exaggerating when I really don’t.

    1. Megs*

      It is astonishing to me that people do this, but I also work in a regulated profession (lawyer) where honesty and the perception of honesty are a big deal. Either way, I don’t think you should assume that it’s so common that hiring managers will assume you’re exaggerating – just make sure you can back everything up and I’ve got to think you’d be fine.

    2. ASJ*

      I have never lied on my resume – but I have had people (my parents) encourage me to “embellish” certain skills – i.e., they wanted me to claim on my resume that I can speak much better French than I really can. The fact that either a) I would end up in a position that requires language skills I don’t have or b) the office would require me to do some sort of test to prove I had those skills never seemed to really sink in.

      I don’t recommend it. The chance that you’ll be found out (either through references, or simply because you can’t do what you claim) is too high. And then your professional reputation is in question.

    3. Laura*

      I don’t think outright lying is common, but I think many people do embellish their resumes, particularly young people. I recently had to tell my college student friend that his THREE PAGE RESUME was completely over the top. He wondered why he wasn’t getting called back for internships…

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t lie. If you get found out, you can get fired!

      Someone who used to work as a recruiter told me to exaggerate my title once–and said many of her friends do it, they lie and get jobs all the time, and then learn on the job. This came from the same person who told me previously that she hired a writer for something and then had to fire her because the writer misrepresented herself. That made my head hurt. o_O

    5. catsAreCool*

      I don’t think lying on a resume is common. People who are caught lying on a resume tend to get fired and possibly listed as do not rehire”, at least at that company.

  74. zd*

    I should probably do the research on this on my own, but am hoping the smarty-pants people here could help me out.

    I just recently started a new job (yay!!) that pays better than all of my previous jobs, ever (YAY!). I found out on my first day, however, that the small firm I’m working for has been acquired by a large national firm (Drama!). I’m temp to perm, so most things don’t apply to me yet, but I’m really not happy with the health insurance situation. The big company has a PPO, which is based in their HQ State in the Midwest, while I’m in California. Their PPO Network in CA is small and terrible, and they charge employees premiums on top of that. I LURV Kaiser and I am currently on a subsidized ACA plan, and I am so effing tired of having to switch my entire medical coverage, doctors, medical history, etc, every time I work for a different employer. (I might have feelings about health care in this country)

    I’m wondering if I can do the following (if I stay on and convert to a permanent employee):
    – Decline their insurance
    – Get an HSA and put as much as I can into it
    – Use the HSA funds to pay for my own Kaiser plan through Covered California (the state ACA exchange)

    Questions:
    1. is this possible?
    2. Is this feasible?

    Thank you in advance you lovely people!

    1. Elizabeth*

      No, because:
      1) you can’t put money into a HSA unless you have a high deductible plan
      2) you can’t pay premiums out of a HSA unless the premiums are for:

      Long-term care insurance.
      Health care continuation coverage (such as coverage under COBRA).
      Health care coverage while receiving unemployment compensation under federal or state law.
      Medicare and other health care coverage if you were 65 or older (other than premiums for a Medicare supplemental policy, such as Medigap).

      https://www.irs.gov/publications/p969/ar02.html#en_US_2015_publink1000204081

      You can opt out of their insurance and buy insurance through the exchange, but you won’t qualify for the credits to make it more affordable unless your employer’s plan is so bad as to not meet the federal standards.

    2. Belle*

      With the ACA, if you are offered coverage by your employer (that falls within the guidelines) then you can’t receive subsidized insurance through the ACA marketplace. You could still buy a plan, but keep in mind that it would be full price.

      For HSAs, you must have an active HDHP in order to add money to an HSA. So if you have one, then yes, you could put some money into up to the maximum allowed. Money could then later be used for qualifying expenses.

      1. zd*

        Yeah, I was thinking full price. But was glad that we at least HAVE one that makes them available. But I probably couldn’t afford full price, I haven’t looked at what that would be yet, I was just hoping, siigghhh….

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Like others have said, you really can’t do that. Also, I feel like you can only usually opt-out of employers insurance (when they meet federal guidelines) if you are going to use a spouses?, and have proof of coverage. But I may be wrong…
      Is the PPO the only one they offer? I thought bigger companies usually offered more choices? It’s also possible that with the buy-out, the bigger company may change the insurance for California based employees come October.

      1. zd*

        So far they have said they will only have the one option.. unfortunately, CA is satellite, so there are only a handful of us here, and their existing CA staff (also only a handful) I’m assuming are currently on the cr*ppy PPO. (Pout)

        1. Elizabeth*

          If your work is in CA (as opposed to working remote for your own convenience), I’d raise this as an issue to HR.

          1. zd*

            Yeah, I could, but it’s awkward because I am currently the only person who is temp, not a permanent hire yet, and the rest of the CA people have told me they aren’t saying anything to HR, they are just reluctantly going along, so I feel like I have no standing here to be the only one complaining.

    4. zd*

      Yeah, I had a feeling that was the case, but WHINE! I am so tired of having to switch all of my stuff around and getting stuck with terrible doctors’ offices that I am paying more to see .. this employer based system is The Worst.

      Thank you everyone for your help, I really appreciate it!!

    5. zd*

      Ok, follow up question: more psychological than technical:

      Am I crazy to make this a major consideration in whether I take this job as a permanent hire? I have prior health issues, and it’s important to me to have health professionals I can communicate with and who have easy access to my history. The job pays better than any job I’ve every had before, but honestly I should be making more at this point, I’ve been underpaid. And it’s not in the field I really want to be in and it’s currently pretty boring.

      I think the right answer is I should just be continuing to aggressively job hunt while I’m here as a temp, but I could use validation that just because a job is “Not Horrible and Toxic” doesn’t mean I have to stay….

      1. Joshua E*

        You are not crazy to make this a major consideration for taking a permanent position. Salary + Benefits are what you get from a job and if your benefits are not the kind you want it’s just like getting a salary that’s too low for you!

        It also sounds like other things about the job are driving you away as well. So go out and get a better job (that has your doctor in network!). Good luck. :)

        1. zd*

          thank you Joshua E, I really needed to hear that! I will get back on the job hunt this weekend!!

        1. zd*

          I’ve been on Kaiser HMO for a long time (on and off) so no my doctors can’t be part of the PPO.

    6. Crystal Vu*

      Does the company offer a Section 125 plan? If you pay out of pocket to keep your Kaiser plan (which I can very much understand), it would be nice to do so with pretax dollars, and health insurance premiums are a qualified Sec 125 expense.

      1. zd*

        Oh, interesting!! I wonder if that is a possibility, I will look into it. Thank you, Crystal Vu!! I never would have known about that.

  75. Becky*

    Would it be ethically wrong to use my eBates account when shopping for work?

    With eBates you get a tiny % as cash back from the purchase amount if the online vendor is listed on the eBates site, and you go through the eBates referral link first rather than purchasing directly from the vendor.

    I do a certain amount of online shopping as part of my job, but I’m paying with my work-issued credit card that my employer pays. However, for the most part it is my choice which online stores to shop at to make the required purchases, so I could often easily go through an eBates referral link to do so, and earn the cash back personally for the referral. (Obviously I wouldn’t do this if the item was available more cheaply elsewhere – I don’t want to cost my employer more $ than he’d be spending already.)

    I confirmed with an eBates rep that this would not be violating the terms of service. It just seems a little weird to me still.

    If it matters, my employer would not be at all interested in creating his own eBates account. It would be impossible to even explain the concept to him (he’s a senior and just doesn’t engage with points systems at all. For example, he’s got thousands of Amex points that he will never ever use…)

    Thoughts? I’m really hurting for cash right now, so this may be influencing my moral compass.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Hmm…interesting question! Many employers allow their employees to, for example, use the Amex points they get for using a corporate Amex card. That’s kind of similar, except that you don’t have as direct an incentive to purchase more or more expensive things.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. I use my personal credit card for my business expenses because I get cash rewards on my personal card. My employer does not require that we use a corporate credit card, it’s merely offered as an option for, say, those who do not have a high enough limit on their personal card.

    3. Pwyll*

      Similar to the others, I know plenty of people who do this with AmEx points, so I don’t really see any reason not to with Ebates so long as you’re not disclosing information about the company or something. (I’m not sure how ebates works).

    4. Anon for this*

      Ha, I’m at one of eBates’ sister companies — we are actually encouraged to do this!

    6. JAM*

      My employer weirdly has a policy about this. They categorize it with restaurant reward programs and airline mile rewards. As long as we would make the purchase without the referral link and it will pass our invoicing process, we are allowed to do it. They even specifically mention that clicking on links in google searches, coupon sites, or from blogs in our industry may result in other people receiving affiliate credit and we should be mindful of that while feeling free to click on safe links on the web. I do catering orders for my company so I sometimes get free items from one of the fast casual places I go to. Perks of the job. :)

    7. Waffles*

      At the non-profit I work at, I set up an eBates account for department purchases. The cash back check gets sent directly to the organization. We rely heavily on donor support, and every dollar we receive is important, so I personally wouldn’t use a personal account for such purchases.

      Of course, a for-profit entity is potentially a different story. I’m sure some companies wouldn’t mind, while others would have a problem with it.

  76. Kathy-office*

    I’m coming to the open thread for some advice and/or peace-of-mind:

    I’m currently dealing with lots of problems at my current job, and looking to leave ASAP. I’m wondering how I can avoid having my current place bad-mouth me when I leave. Based on some current events, I’m worried they may not be truthful about my performance in this position if they are contacted, and I’m worried this will follow me and impact my career.

    Will leaving them off of my resume work? (and yes, I’d rather have the gap on my resume) Or will it be something I’ll just need to worry about when I job search in the future? How can I minimize any damage or potential for them to retaliate against me?

    1. ASJ*

      It’s hard. We recently had someone interview at my office. My manager noticed this candidate hadn’t put any references from that office (but still had it on her resume), ended up knowing someone from that office, and reached out only to find that this candidate was basically on their do not hire list.

      Having said that, it is extremely common to not want the place you’re interviewing at to contact your current place of employment. Too many managers will promptly bump employees out the door if they find out the employee is searching. So, if you still work there (apologies if I’m misinterpreting), leave it on your resume, have some current, other references to use, and just ask that they not contact your current place of work.

      1. Kathy-office*

        Thanks for the advice! You’re right, I still work there, so I’m good for now. I’m just worried for later down the line if potential employers contact them for a reference, since I can’t trust that they’ll be honest in what they report about me (formally or informally). For now, I’m focusing on the positive that people wont be likely to contact them for my current search.

    2. Megs*

      Ug, that sucks. You could leave them off of your resume if you want, but there’s always the risk of a potential employer asking for comprehensive employment history (this is very common in my field but not necessarily in others). You could try and cultivate a particular person who you might trust to be a good reference, and do you best not the burn bridges, but with a bad workplace there’s always going to be some risk. Good luck!

      1. Kathy-office*

        Thanks for your advice as well! I’m hoping I can do what you’re saying. I think I’ll leave it off whenever I can, since it’s not as common to need to give a comprehensive job history in my field, just relevant experience. But you’re right, it’ll just be a risk I have for at least the next few years. Which sucks, but it’s a valuable lesson learned about choosing jobs and knowing when to leave.

  77. friendlyinitials*

    I have a question. I started my job abıyt 3 months ago and boss wants me to take a class (paid for by the company) next year. It’s mainly for an exam I’d have to take if I were to continue with this as my career.

    I am on the fence because my predecessor quit in the middle of taking this class and it really upset boss. He talks about it a lot. I took this job because I had to and it’s going okay so far but I’m reluctant to say yes and tie myself further to it. If it were a big company I wouldn’t worry this much but we’re just 3 people.

    I just wanted your advice. Should I just take the class? Should I ask to defer it a year? Am I worried over nothing? Thank you!

    2. Pwyll*

      First, do you even want the license? And secon,d, will you be unable to continue working in this job without the license? I think that’s the determining factor. It’s one thing to take an exam that really is a benefit to you personally but doesn’t necessarily benefit the employer, but if you’re being pressured to take the exam because you’ll need it to continue the work, I’d take the class. Just make sure you’re not signing anything that involves you paying it back if you leave.

      For example, I’d be more annoyed if an admin took the Certified Administrative Professional course and left, because it’s not necessary to the job and I ended up with no benefit. But if I made someone get Series 7 because I needed someone to give securities advice, and they left, I’d be less annoyed.

      That said, this is all a cost of doing business for the employer. So decide what makes the most sense for you.

      1. friendlyinitials*

        I’d need to take the exam in the long run but it’s fine for now. Because in order to qualify to take the exam I need to work for 3 years first. And from what I understand few people pass on the first try so we’re looking at 4-5 years. I think this came up a bit too soon but I also don’t want to be ungrateful.

        1. Pwyll*

          Perhaps your answer could be, “Thanks, but because you need 3 years of experience before you can sit for the exam, I’d really like to take the course in my third year right before the exam so I’m better prepared. Can we talk about this late next year?” That way it’s more about passing the test, and less about the possibility of your leaving.

  78. AnotherAlison*

    Has anyone here [really] used MOOCs or open courses successfully?

    I’ve signed up for some Coursera series in the past, but made it about half-way through the first course before dropping out. I’ve downloaded a bunch of MIT OCW courses in the past, too, but when I try to figure out where to start, I get discouraged. I want to do self-study for systems engineering. I’m very interested in the topics, but the free open course information seems so piecemeal that I wonder if I would be better off to bite the bullet and enroll in a regular grad certificate program.

    If anyone has actually acquired new knowledge and skills through the open options, I would love to hear what strategies you used to be successful.

    1. Victoria, Please*

      This is kind of my professional area, so: It sounds like you need to spend some time planning. First, to develop a curriculum for yourself so it doesn’t feel so scattershot; and second so when you open your MIT OCW courses you won’t sit there blankly and then go do something else. You want a detailed enough plan so that you know what you are going to do every time you sit down.

      It’s also extremely helpful to have friends along, and hold each other accountable. Finally, scheduling the activities just like a regular class will help.

      The problem with the MOOCs and suchlike is that they are free, they have no deadline, there’s nothing external to keep a person on track. So you have to impose those things yourself.

      Hope this helps…

  79. Caledonia*

    sigh. Had an interview on Tuesday, said they’d let people know on Friday pm. Well here, we are at almost 6 pm so guess will either get a rejection email or a phone call on Monday. Gahhhhhh. Is it so hard to call your top candidates to tell them it’ll be later? (but I’ve probably been rejected.)

    In other cheery news, it’s been reported that 50,000 jobs have been lost with more likely, with unemployment up by 95% in the area. And the fear of Brexit.

    1. Oryx*

      I wouldn’t stress too much about this — more than once I had a company tell me I’d hear from them by Friday, which came and went, and I got a call with an offer the following week.

    2. ASJ*

      A ton of things can delay an offer, particularly during the summer. Working where I am, I see first-hand that the business week disappears SO fast and people just get preoccupied with other, more urgent (to them) stuff. You might not even hear back next week, but that doesn’t necessarily mean something good or bad.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Or they got busy and got behind and didn’t call / email anybody. Or they decided to take off early for the weekend.

      *hug* One thing that helped me when I was job hunting was to make my weekends actual weekends. I told myself, “It’s Saturday/Sunday, and no one is open or doing anything so there is nothing I can do and nothing to worry about for two days.”

      Brexit is scary. There seems to be so much wildly conflicting information.

  80. Mockingjay*

    I had an interesting conversation with a coworker this morning. He was talking about the kind of employee that meets our company’s “culture” – the dynamic, engaged, gung-ho sort – that he’d like to have more of. He completely discounted three of our quieter staff who don’t actively promote the company’s “brand” (I’m using quotes deliberately), but produce a great deal each week consistently and reliably without much oversight.

    We are working together on a business development effort to salvage our local office (I’ve posted frequently about its lack of corporate presence, leaving us to the whims of a demanding federal contract customer, although recent improvements have been made). I have to wonder how we are going to staff this planned effort. I see great value in quiet, productive team members – two of them are on my team. I also think a lot of the issues and conflicts over the past 2 years have been caused by strong personalities vying for presence. It will be a challenge to develop a consensus for staffing.

    1. SophieChotek*

      It seems like EvilHR Lady had a post about this “Identify your most valuable Employee” and she pointed out that often the most “dynamic” or “friendly” is “top sales” is always considered most valuable…which can discount/not take into account other factors.

      (Sorry Link seems to be broken, else I would post it.)

      1. Mockingjay*

        I’ve discovered Susan Cain’s Quiet Revolution blog/website. It has helped me tune into the strengths of the quieter people around me. The site includes her amazing TED talk video.

  81. Sarah*

    Next Tuesday is my last day of work at my current job. I had been looking for a while, and just decided that it was time to set a departure date – even if I didn’t have the next thing lined up! I couldn’t be happier. I know not everyone can do this (thank you to my partner!), but if you can, I highly recommend taking the plunge to get out of a toxic work environment.

    1. InterviewFreeZone*

      Congrats! I hope you feel the same glorious weight lift off your shoulders that I did. Especially with the summer weather finally here.

  82. Pennalynn Lott*

    People who work in, or are familiar with, academia: Is it normal for a professor to go on vacation and have a former student try and teach a class? I’m in summer school, which is at an accelerated pace, and we just wasted a 2.25-hour class with a former student (who isn’t even the TA) reading from Power Points. She added no new information, and even finished in 45 minutes (when the professor usually runs out of time because of all the examples and additional information she gives).

    I feel hugely ripped off, because this course is costing me $1500. Is it worth me complaining to someone (and, if so, who?), or is this totally normal in the university world?

    1. LisaLee*

      It depends. In the course of a normal semester, I have sometimes seen professors do this for one or two class periods when they have to be gone. In accelerated courses, I think it’s a little rude. Is this the only class session where that will be the case? If so, I might be inclined to not say anything. If its a pattern, I might speak up.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Maybe 1 or 2 times during an entire semester.
        Then usually an upper-level grad student might take the class.
        But often it was for the prof to give feedback to the grad student about teaching, so prof would be there.
        For prof to be there not at all, it better be an emergency.
        If happens again, I would also speak up.

    2. Nanc*

      What?! The prof is being paid to teach, and often summer session is by choice. I would go to the department head, especially if this is a required course for your major.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, the only time I’ve ever seen something like this happen is when a professor had an absolutely unavoidable emergency (medical crisis, death in the family, etc.). Did they actually say it was vacation or did they just say “out of town” or something generic?

        Also as mentioned above, even if it is a real emergency, it’s fine to speak up if this happens more than once. When I was in grad school one of the other professors in my department (not of a class I was enrolled in), had some health issues and missed several classes one semester. She was maybe in denial about how sick she was and kept coming back and promising make up classes, but then getting worse again. After about the third cancellation, the students appealed to the program director and the director actually took over the class for the rest of the semester (and made up the missed sessions) so the professor could rest and the students could get a full course.

        1. Pennalynn Lott*

          She actually said last week that she would be on vacation, beginning Saturday. We had a test on Monday, which the former student and the TA handed out. (Which was fine, I don’t need the professor to be there while I write answers down). But it was a huge shock when the former student “taught” the class on Wednesday. The professor didn’t tell us she’d be gone *that* long. In fact, she just got back today. So, yeah, week-long vacation.

    3. Ultraviolet*

      It is pretty common to get a grad student to be a substitute instructor for a lecture or two. Even if that student isn’t the course TA, they’re assumed to have enough background in the general subject area to teach it non-terribly. It’s less common but not unheard-of to have a very good recent BA/BS graduate fill in. Is the former student who gave your lecture a recent graduate or current grad student? If not, that would be unusual in my experience.

      I suspect that during the regular academic year, you would basically get brushed off if you complained about one substitute lecture. You might get more attention in this case since it’s the summer term, because as you pointed out, summer classes are accelerated and that one lecture was a relatively big part of the class. What’s your goal in complaining though? If this course is part of the university’s regular offerings, I think the odds of getting some money back or even an apology are pretty low. (If on the other hand it’s some kind of workshop or continuing/adult education course, you might have better luck.) But if the substitute lecturer doesn’t even have a degree in the subject, it’s possible that complaining to someone outside the department (I’d contact Student Affairs and ask them who to talk to about it) would result in some higher-up telling the professor to pick more qualified substitutes. If you just want to let the department know that they shouldn’t let this particular person substitute teach again, the best place to bring it up is probably the course evaluation at the end of the term–unless you feel comfortable bringing it up with the professor in person now. The upside to talking to the professor about it now is that she might figure out a way to review the material from the bad lecture with the class.

      I’m speaking from my experience as a grad student who wasn’t heavily involved in teaching–someone else might know better!

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Yep, my goal in complaining would be to get a pro-rated refund.

        What I think is going to happen is that the instructor is going to have to go over the material again on Monday, thus setting us way back. It would have been less frustrating for all of us if she had just cancelled the class. Some students drove 45 minutes, one way, to come to campus for just that class. (Not me, though, I was already up there for an earlier class).

        Oh, and the student doesn’t have a degree in the subject. From what I could gather, she doesn’t even have her Bachelor’s yet. She’s just someone who is friendly with the professor and whom [apparently] the professor thinks is good with the material. (Um, she’s not).

        1. Ultraviolet*

          I don’t blame you for being unhappy with that. Your tuition money should definitely be buying you better instruction than what you’d get from someone with those qualifications.

          Unfortunately I’m not optimistic about your chances of getting a refund, pro-rated or otherwise. Universities are unwieldy bureaucracies not designed to allow anyone to make judgment calls like “this student deserves a partial refund.” I’m not saying that in order to discourage you from complaining though–just giving you my take on what to expect.

          You might have better luck asking for compensation not as a pro-rated refund but as a waiver for next term’s fees or even a gift certificate to the university bookstore. It’s possible that anyone you contact about a refund would want to know whether you’d complained to the professor and given her the opportunity to offer a make-up lecture (as in, holding a whole new class meeting outside of regular class time to go over the material you should have gotten from the sub).

        2. LisaLee*

          Uh, what. An undergrad should not be teaching classes. Revise what I said above–that’s ridiculous.

    4. CheeryO*

      I’m not in academia, but I took several summer classes and never had a professor miss a single session. I guess I would give them a pass on one class, since it could have been a non-negotiable trip (a family member’s wedding or something). The side-eye is totally justifiable, though – I would expect nothing less than the TA and a full-length class.

      If it happens again, I would absolutely raise it with the head of the department. Two missed classes is probably almost 20% of the total instruction time in a summer session, and that’s really not fair to you as a paying student.

    5. dear liza dear liza*

      Academic here. It’s not unusual to have someone else cover your class- but by a student who doesn’t have her BA yet? Uh, no. You should report that to the Chair of the department and the Dean of the college.

      In your complaint, go ahead and ask for your money back but I’ll be shocked if you get it. The only tuition reimbursement on most campuses is for an entire course, and is reserved for emergency things like, “I went to the first class and then was hospitalized until after the withdraw date.”

    6. Kittens*

      I’m a TA (for undergrad level classes on a quarter system, so not quite at the accelerated level, but it’s definitely intensive) and I would say it’s relatively common for this to happen once in awhile in the university world. Sometimes a professor just can’t make it for whatever reason, and when that happens I’ll fill in because rescheduling is much more disruptive and often happens on a day people can’t make it making attendance super low.

      It doesn’t sound like the set-up is at fault, it sounds like the fill-in person was bad. The most I’ve ever seen is a professor being out for 3 weeks out of 12, for a work conference he just couldn’t avoid and was scheduled after he accepted the role for the quarter. The person who filled in was really engaging and smart and interesting though, and quickly after became a professor himself, so the students didn’t have a problem with it. If anything, I would talk to the professor him or herself, because they would probably want to know if the person they’re hiring to take over for them isn’t great.

      1. Kittens*

        Oh! I missed that they were a friend without their bachelors….thaaaaat’s crazy. Then I would definitely say something to the professor and encourage your classmates to do the same. You can definitely try to get your money back, but I have to agree with Ultraviolet you have a really low chance of success if it’s just one bad class in an otherwise good course. Even with accelerated courses, sometimes a class won’t even get made up and I’ve never successfully seen anyone get a pro-rated discount, though I have on several occasions seen students get their money back when an entire course was terrible.

  83. Love my team*

    A cheerful question for a change —

    Looking for suggestions of small things I can do as a supervisor to make my team’s life better, given that I can’t give them extra money or time off because of the need for organization-wide equity. (I’m willing to spend some of my own money, but it can’t be a huge amount.) Assume that I’m following Allison’s “be a good boss” general advice.

    1. Nanc*

      Well, you could start by asking them! But off the top of my head:
      Flex start/end times/lunch hour
      Occasional work from home options
      New chair/monitor/keyboard/in tray/their favorite brand of pen instead of the generic cheapies–some times the little things just make it nice/bearable
      Rearrange their work space (hard if it’s a cube farm but maybe there’s things that can be done to make the cube farm better)
      Scheduled professional development on-the-job, ie, take a web course, read a book about their area of expertise, go to a local event once a quarter or so. Might be an hour a week, might be 1 day a quarter where they get to focus on that.
      When they go above and beyond, let them know right away in an email or even a hand written note. It’s nice to have tangible evidence even when you get the verbal thanks.

    3. Joanna*

      The favourite in my office is passing round a box of chocolate bars. If your office has a more formal dress code but it won’t cause problems if people dress more casually, declare some casual clothing days. If there’s company wide programs to recognise great performance, make sure you’re nominating members of your team frequently (especially the people who do great work but tend to get overlooked)

  84. RecentGrad16*

    Does anyone have advice for dealing with negative, mean-spirited coworkers? I’m a recent graduate from college, and my entire department, including my boss and the director of the department, have a tendency to trash talk or complain about other people in the organization. We’re located in an open air office, and they do this publicly during working hours. Even if it’s just complaining about leadership, or decisions made in the organization, it makes me uncomfortable. On top of that, there’s generally a lot of negativity in the office.

    Is it something I can address in a department meeting and say it makes me uncomfortable, or is that not appropriate? I’m not sure if there’s anything I can do about it, or if I just need to tolerate it. I’m pretty thin-skinned, and it’s starting to make me paranoid they’re talking about me when I’m not in the room. Any advice?

    1. it will happen*

      See my post above – almost the exact same question – in my case it seems to be one particular person but she interacts with MANY people and so it perpetuates. I am planning to talk directly to her about how this is not constructive, hurts people and the company etc but I believe it won’t really stop it – I think some people are just this way? I have said things like ‘why would people stay here so long if it is so bad’ and she doesn’t really answer – but to me it seems if it IS so bad then leave!

      1. RecentGrad16*

        I just read your post, and that fits almost exactly someone in my department to a T. I guess it’s a common problem. If you’re friends with her, I think talking to her would be a good recourse. It’s possible she’s not even aware of how she’s coming across to others, and it’s possible that’s just how she operates – she enjoys being unhappy (this seems to be the person in my department). Maybe you could recommend her not saying those types of things publicly to upsetting other people in the office or influencing morale?

        Or maybe helping her find productive ways to express her frustrations/ideas for fixing things? Are there any legitimate concerns she could address, or is she just generally unhappy?

        1. it will happen*

          Yes I am going to try these things. I have a feeling that it will just be sluffed off as it has been in the past but I am going to try to really stress that it is not reflecting well on her and her role. That as management it is very counter productive to be talking in such a way.

          It doesn’t help that I am VERY introverted and just hate confrontation and talking directly to someone about uncomfortable things – I think that is more what I need help with – how to get my nerve up to do it and how to stay focused and not get off track.

    2. BringtheCannoli*

      I think in this case, since you are new and not at a senior level, you may not have any standing to discuss it with anyone. You may be able to bring it up to your direct supervisor, but I would phrase it as asking for advice instead of ‘complaining about the complaining.’

      So for example “I wanted to ask you how to best handle this situation. When I hear people opening complaining about others, it makes me uncomfortable, and it makes me concerned that these individuals may not be bringing issues directly to me if I have made a mistake. How can I address it with them to make sure we are maintaining open lines of communications if they have an issue or concern about my work?”

      This happens at my job, and I have gotten the reputation of being the person, who just likes everybody. They joke that nothing can make me mad or upset. This has caused them to speak about that stuff less often around me, and when they do, I just smile and say “well I am sure they are trying their hardest” or “I imagine they had the best intentions” or “have you spoken to them about your concern” and it usually shuts them up.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        A benign smile and “Hmm, that hasn’t been my experience.” is also a useful response.

      2. RecentGrad16*

        This is definitely helpful. My direct supervisor is one of the biggest culprits of the trash-talking/complaining, so I’m concerned she would be less inclined to change anything, even if I mentioned it around my own work – in fact, I’m concerned mainly that SHE’S the one talking about me, if anyone. I usually react similarly to you – smile and respond with non-answers.

        It’s a cultural thing that needs to be changed, but I think, like you, there’s not much I can do given my current role. I know complaining and trash talking is somewhat common in office culture, I’m just uncomfortable when it’s as rampant as it is here, and crosses hierarchal boundaries. I think I might have to grin and bear it, and develop a thicker skin about the whole thing.

    3. Oh Fed*

      I have had some experience with this situation. The first time it happened, I was just a few years into my career. I was so discouraged by the negativity that I just kept my head down and got out of there as quickly as I could (internal transfer in less than a year). It was a pretty discouraging time and I didn’t take good care of myself –poor eating & health habits, etc and I also overspent financially to compensate for my misery. If I ever had to endure this again, I would make sure that I had goals in my non-work life that I could put my energy toward.
      After an out of state move, I found myself in a similar situation about 5 years later. This time, my options were not the same and for many reasons I was going to have to stay. In fact, I’m still there 15 years later. This time, I had a more active strategy. Firstly, I was not going to allow the negativity to affect my health, attitude or finances. And I started each day with that intention. When situations came up, I took the high road–I would defend someone who was being bullied, offer to help anyone, radiated positivity, wouldn’t listen to rants, etc. Once or twice I called someone out but not in an agressive way. I legitimately had no person who was friendly toward me for the first year at that job. However, eventually that changed–there were really just a handful of really sad, angry, toxic people and everyone else was just going along. Those who were on the fringe softened first and some of the toxic people left–two actually died. When new people were hired, I was friendly and welcoming. Today, the person who was the worst to me is still a generally negative person but she is a pretty small voice. This is actually the path I recommend for a job that is important.

  85. ExceptionToTheRule*

    I have a mini vent. At the beginning of May, I started negotiations with my full-time job for a promotion/title change/raise to take effect with my next contract at the beginning of June. Those negotiations went very well and I was able to quit my part-time job.

    Because it’s a very small non-profit (we have 2.5 FTEs), I gave them 8 weeks notice and made my last day with them the end of June instead of the end of May for the express purpose of being around long enough to at least start training my replacement. And by express, I mean I specifically stated that was the reason and they said yes, that’d be great, we’ll get someone hired. I do a large variety of things at that job, from accounts payable to IT support for our Sharepoint site to general office support. None of which our office manager has ever bothered to learn over the last two years.

    I wrote up instructions for what I could and then discovered they had no intention of hiring anybody before I left. I’ve only got two weeks left, but I feel increasingly annoyed and feel like they’ve taken advantage of my goodwill to a degree. /vent

    1. ASJ*

      Eh. I wouldn’t be too annoyed. It’s hard to know what could slow down a hiring process. Maybe they had every intention of hiring your replacement – maybe not. I see this phrase a lot here that I try to remember: never attribute to malice what you can chalk up to ineptitude (I’m paraphrasing, that’s not it exactly, but oh well.)

      Instead of feeling frustrated and taken advantage of, know that you went the extra mile to try and help your company out. If they flounder when you’re gone, well. That’s just karma. :)

      1. ExceptionToTheRule*

        Oh, I know exactly why the process has drawn out. It’s what contributes to my annoyance and it is ineptitude. I get through most days by reminding myself that what happens when I’m gone is not my problem. Thanks for the pep talk though. I needed it today.

  86. Kat M*

    I’m moving to a new city next month and taking the opportunity to get out of my (rewarding but underpaid and physically demanding) field and into something more professional. I don’t have a degree.

    Anyhow, there’s a job I’m applying for that’s a stretch for me, but not impossible. It involves visiting organizations in [current field] and encouraging/helping them to meet higher, more current standards. The only requirement I’m not sure about is some project management experience. On reflection, I’ve done quite a bit of this as a volunteer, organizing between 5 and 30 people on projects that took anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. On the other hand, I have little formal training in this area. I don’t know what kind of language I should be using to describe this work. Any experienced folks have advice on how to A) make my accomplishments sound meaningful and B) learn more about what this kind of work actually entails?

    1. valc2323*

      I’ve spent a lot of time as a project manager, and learning to talk about being a project manager. In regards to point A, you may want to consider…
      * highlighting your soft skills on your resume, and thinking about how you’ll talk about them in an interview: building relationships, bringing people around to the same point of view even if they start at different points, communicating with others about what needs to be done and some strategies they can use to reach those goals.
      * identifying examples of your organizational and time management skills that you can showcase: month-over-month milestones that build from a zero point to an end point several months later; spotting bottlenecks in projects and identifying the root causes to fix them; strategic planning and interdependencies, such as “we are starting at point A. If it goes as planned we will reach point D in six months. If W happens, then we do B, and we get to point D in 8 months. If X happens, we do C, and we get to point D in four months.”
      * Becoming at least passingly familiar with both the older and more current standards, so that during your interview you can talk about at least two examples: “I know that the older standards required H and the newer standards require J. Some strategies I would like to use to help clients move from H to J are…”

      As far as (B), Google is the best place to start. Do you know anyone in your network who has done this type of work in the past that you could talk to? Maybe not this sort of specific quality improvement work, but project management in general? Maybe not even someone you’d typically associate with your professional network, but someone from one of the organizations you’ve volunteered for.

  87. Mustache Cat*

    What are your petty office bull**** stories?

    The other day, I was informed that Jane felt that I had not been sufficiently nice to her at a work conference. (I was perfectly professional, but I did have job-related duties at the conference that I needed to get to). Because she felt that I had not been nice, she decided to complain to a senior VP about it, and let her subordinates know that she had done this, implying all the while that I wouldn’t help them with their tasks if they asked me to (not true, as I heard this story from one of her subordinates as she came to my office to thank me for doing something for her).

    It’s so petty that it’s somehow working me up more than something more egregious would. So please, tell me your equally stupid and petty stories!

    1. LisaLee*

      At my college job, I had a boss who was a “if you have time to lean, you have time to clean!” type. One day we genuinely had zero customers (there was a big event going on elsewhere–we never even fired up the burners that day) and since there was no other work to do, he made me trim the brooms. Like go around with a pair of safety scissors and make sure all the bristles on these dirty brooms were exactly the same length. It was ridiculous.

      I also had a boss who, whenever he found something wrong in the office (a pen out of ink, a piece of trash on the floor) he would come up and silently drop it on my desk. I was not his assistant or the office manager. He just felt it was my job to take care of other people’s trash, I guess.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I had one manager in food service who tried to literally get me to mop the freezer. I thought he was joking at first–it’s a common joke to haze newbies with. Nope, he meant it, and only relented when he realized the mop strings were just sticking to the floor and tearing off.

    2. ASJ*

      In my first retail job, I had a coworker who, when I asked her to come up to the tills to help out if we needed her, reported me to management. Apparently she thought it wasn’t my place to say that.

      Also, in this job, had a coworker CC my manager when she emailed me to ask why I had forwarded her something that wasn’t her responsibility. Super condescending tone and everything. Super lovely, especially since it turned out that it was our student who had forwarded her the message, not me.

    3. Megs*

      I’m not sure if this counts as BS or not, but it’s one of my favorite work stories so here goes: after college I spent a few months working at a collectable store that also had a back room that sold adult movies and magazines (“collectibles!”). The back area had walls that didn’t reach the ceiling and mirrors so we could see the area from outside – for reasons one can imagine I’m sure. Not long after I was hired I didn’t have much to do and the store was empty, so I decided to go back and organize the videos. A little while later my manager called me up front and told me I wasn’t allowed to go back there anymore because I was scaring away the customers. Womp womp.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I work at a large university so it sometimes feels like my entire working life is made up of stupid and petty stories!

      Here’s one. We have many meetings with students where food is provided as an incentive to attend. When we have food left over, we always leave it out for others to enjoy. Without fail, at least one person who comes to get some food will mumble about how our area must be loaded because of all these muffins (usually with the muffin in their mouth).

      Oh, here’s another good one. A colleague in our building remodeled their office, and a staff member from another area, under the pretense of seeing the remodel, went up to see it and was clearly counting the ceiling tiles to see whose office was bigger.

      How anyone manages to get actual work done amidst these grand injustices, I’ll never know.

      1. fposte*

        Heh on the office size. I had a professor who had his office moved not because he asked for the new office, but because that was how they would block somebody too junior to rate that space.

    5. Lily Evans*

      At my last job the kitchen in the staff room was a source of constant petty passive-aggression. Two incidents really stood out though. The first is the time when two of the staff members decided that people weren’t putting dry dishes away quickly enough, so they hid the dish-rack. The head of the department had to ask them to put it back during the next meeting because it just led to people leaving the dished on paper towels on the counter.

      The incident that stood out most, though, is the time when one of those two coworkers noticed that the fridge was smelly. So what did she do? Did she send out an email saying, “Hey, could everyone check to see if they forgot food in the fridge?” No, of course not. She took all of the possibly stinky things out of the fridge and put them on the staff room table with a note that was something like “Stinky offenders! If you don’t take your containers back by the end of the day they’ll be thrown out!” Any guesses as to what happened to that staff room, which for the record did not have windows that opened?

      It reeked to the high-heavens for DAYS. I had to hold my nose to get to the staff restrooms. (Btw, for anyone who’s read my past comments about that job, this was the same woman who tried to get me to date her son!)

    6. Ama*

      It wasn’t petty so much as passive-aggressive, but I worked at a job where we hosted public lectures with receptions in the evenings. We had a cafeteria with a staff chef who like to incorporate the leftovers into her menus, so any food left after events was put in the lecture hall kitchen. After one sparsely attended lecture, most of a cheese plate was put in the fridge. Someone came in, took the plate out to help themselves to leftovers and then left the plate on the counter overnight. We had a bad ant problem in that kitchen so by the time it was discovered, it was *crawling* and the whole thing had to be thrown out.

      The kicker was that the person who we were 90% sure left the plate out in the first place went back to get more cheese, found it in the trash and then sent an email to me and my boss, complaining that we were wasting food and if we weren’t going to eat it it should be donated somewhere. (I resisted the urge to reply with “to your stomach?”)

      The only good thing was that this incident finally convinced our big boss that we should ban the non-event staff from the lecture hall kitchens.

  88. BringtheCannoli*

    Hi Everyone,

    I just wanted to give you an update. I had asked a few weeks ago about what I should do when I wanted feedback for improvement and accidentally asked for a performance review instead.

    Good news! Asking for a performance review actually prompted my boss to do a performance review for everyone in my department, where I was rated 4.85/5, told there was very few and small needed areas of improvement, and got a PROMOTION a RAISE, and they split my position (I was holding two full time jobs in 37.5 hours/week) into TWO POSITIONS! Thank you all for your input!

  89. CB499*

    I started a new job last Monday and I’m worried that I won’t have any work friends here. I’m a very quiet person and am also shy and introverted but I’ve always made work friends in my previous positions but it just took a while (~ a month). I just don’t think that will be the case with this new job!

    Everyone in my office is really nice but they’ve all worked together for over a decade so I feel like an interloper and have a hard time joining conversations because I have no clue what anyone is talking about. I’ve tried to start conversations by asking about office events, plans for weekend, etc (all open-ended questions!), but I usually get one word responses and that’s it. I feel like I’m doing all of the work and no one is even trying to get to know me. It’s also difficult to initiative convos because I don’t directly work with a majority of the people in the office and my office isn’t really near anyone elses. Just looking to vent but would appreciate it if anyone had any suggestions on how to effectively start conversations with strangers.

    1. Hallway Feline*

      I had this happen when I first started at my current position in May 2015!

      Like you, I’m quiet and introverted. I had the “good fortune” of getting the cubicle in the back corner so people never knew I was there. However, I could hear EVERYTHING from the kitchen. When I heard a lot of people going into the kitchen or just loitering there, I would casually walk in with my coffee mug and “refresh” it (usually fill it for the first time but shhh that’s a secret). Often, I would time this when my animal-loving coworkers were in the kitchen talking about their pets. I could then laugh at the pet antics and quickly add something along the lines of, “Oh! My cat did something similar the other day!” Inevitably, since they loved pet stories, they would ask me about it or to see pictures. Pets are a good conversation starter, and a pretty neutral topic. People love talking about them so even if you start the conversation with someone new, you could open with, “My pet did something so strange this morning!” while you’re both just preparing for the day. Trust me, they will ask.

      If pets aren’t your thing, another way I started conversations were about sports. We have a lot of men in the office who talk sports ALL THE TIME. So when I heard them in the kitchen talking about a team I didn’t like, I would enter and jokingly say something about my team being better. Sports “rivalries” are a good way to make casual conversation too.

      Eventually, your coworkers will see you’re approachable and come to you. The initial push is hard, but keep it light and casual as I’ve mentioned and it’ll happen naturally. They’ll even start to ask you about your hobbies/other interests!

      Let me know if this helped!

      1. CB499*

        Good idea! I just have to suck it up and put more effort into it because I’m not really near anything at all except for the bathroom. Thank you!

  90. Past FMLA Asker*

    I just wanted to thank everyone for their advice and help finding resources with my FMLA question a few weeks ago, where my employer was incorrectly declaring that any time not spent providing physical care to a qualifying family member wasn’t covered. I did end up having to escalate the situation above the head of HR, and after much backpedaling, it was all correctly classified. I don’t like that I had to do that or that our HR rep straight up lied about it, but it’s taken care of and off my mind, and that’s what matters. Needless to say any future communication with HR about it will be done in writing (although now my emails are going unanswered, but that’s a whole separate issue). I am so grateful for the knowledge in this community and the great people willing to share their expertise. I was at my breaking point with this and you all helped me get a huge problem off my mind during this stressful time.

  91. Hallway Feline*

    Anyone else experience this at work?

    A few weeks ago we took an anonymous and confidential survey about the company — how we felt about the overall morale, how much we enjoyed it, what qualities we thought made up good managers, what qualities made bad managers, recognition, etc. Earlier this week we had a 2 hour meeting on it. During the presentation of results, the President kept asking if anyone wanted to share their answers. This isn’t strictly illegal, because it was voluntary to offer your insight at the meetings, but it made me uncomfortable because it felt like they were expecting everyone to say what they had written in their anonymous survey. However, there were some looks around the room, so I get the feeling they know who wrote what and it wasn’t as anonymous as they wanted us to believe.

    I don’t have anything to ask for advice on, I’m just wondering if anyone else has experienced this.

    1. Rebecca*

      I may be super paranoid, but no one can convince me that surveys are anonymous or confidential, especially when you tell me to log into a website, from my work computer, to fill it out. The last time I got trapped into filling one out, I gave everyone outstanding reviews and called it a day. This happened to be a survey about our less than effective IT department, administered by IT, you get the picture. No thanks.

      1. Rocky*

        Yeah…I don’t get into conspiratorial thinking about it, but I do take the confidentiality of this stuff with a grain of salt. Especially because I have a friend who ended up being named in a lawsuit brought by a co-worker for whom she’d done an “anonymous” peer evaluation.

        1. Hallway Feline*

          Wow that’s awful. How could a peer review (that I’m going to assume was fair and balanced) be used in a lawsuit? Obviously if you can’t share I understand. It’s just such a wild thought!

          1. Rocky*

            I don’t know too many of the details. Her comments weren’t the issue, but supported one side of the case, and were apparently discoverable.

      2. Hallway Feline*

        Yeah, I understand what you’re saying. But the survey we took was to better the company because there was a lot of… Hostility?… between departments. So I tried to be fair and not overly-critical, but there’s a lot that needs fixing (a lot is fixable, which was a good takeaway from the whole thing).

      3. Tsalmoth*

        We use Google for our surveys, which has the advantage of making it VERY clear if the survey is anonymous or not (mind you, it’s not on a par with tools like Qualtrics or SurveyMonkey, but it’s good for these sort of things).

        1. Hallway Feline*

          We used Google and it said on the front page before we even started the survey that it was anonymous. So maybe the looks were just because they knew who felt what way from other private meetings?

      4. Anon now*

        Yeah, I write and send out these surveys in my job. They are definitely not anonymous – anyone that has access to review the results and is at least somewhat tech savvy can figure out who is answering especially if it’s a small demographic answering. Also your anonymity IS NOT POSSIBLE if you fill out your name and email address to be entered to win a prize for your time.

        I keep the results I receive as confidential as possible, going out of my way to strip words or replace identifiers with something generic before I forward the results to my superiors. I can guarantee you that other people in my role could care less and share what they know.

    2. Ama*

      Not that exact issue, but at a former employer we were once sent a survey about a potential bike share program where they wanted everyone to indicate the possible times we would need bikes if we were commuting. About two weeks later, there was a company-wide email lecturing us on how the office hours were 9-5 and many people had indicated they left early on Fridays which was *not* company policy.

      The really stupid thing was that the way the question was written it encouraged you to write down all times you *might* need the bikes, so I’m pretty sure most people answered it the way I did, which was go “oh sometimes I need to leave early for appointments so I better put down a range of 3-6 pm for the evening commute.” So this was basically just the VP of Operations overreacting because people were trying to answer the question in the spirit in which they thought it had been asked.

      Needless to say, future surveys had very poor return rates at this company.

      1. Hallway Feline*

        I’m sorry that happened! It always stinks when you answer the questions in the spirit they were asked and a higher-up doesn’t read how the question was worded before overreacting. We had questions sort of like that too, one of them being “Do you think X will be changed?” and people answered “no” because they felt it WOULDN’T be changed, not that it COULDN’T be changed. And that was one of the big sticking points in the meeting. Sigh.

    3. Laura*

      This is why I don’t take surveys that don’t explicitly state that they’re anonymous, and how the data is kept from identifying you.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Yes, my former employer has done this periodically. Once when they were actually concerned about a spike in turnover in an internal survey. Again, when they were having problems attracting minority customers.

      In addition, every year they try to get named as being one of the 10 best places to work in an industry specific magazine. Somehow they managed to actually get named several years ago (there were a lot of newbies then), but in the last few years they were not, supposedly because they did not have enough responses to qualify.

      Yeah. Right.

    5. DoDah*

      I worked for a company that administered these surveys and we could always tell exactly who answered what by the unique URL When I’m asked to fill out the surveys–(last week)–I just give 4-5 stars across the board. To be blunt–I’ve never seen these surveys used for positive change.

  92. Cruciatus*

    Today is day one of my vacation (I have off all of next week too). But yesterday morning at work I realized I messed up something. Not entirely my fault. Not life or death. Basically, a faculty member’s student ratings for a summer course may be null and void because he turned in his grades before the survey was sent to students. His class was on a slightly different schedule than all the other courses, which I failed to realize. But this faculty member is tenured, has more fall and spring courses that will have ratings available for what the university uses them for. But I hate that I messed up by setting the survey to open way after the class ended. And now I’m not really enjoying my staycation! I have my work email open to see if there’s any fallout. Gah! I absolutely need this time off (which may help me from making mistakes like this when I get back) but hate that I realized I messed up just before I left. Hopefully I’m over this by the end of the day…

    1. Adam V*

      I would email your boss and say something like “hey, I just realized that due to [Professor]’s class schedule, the way the ratings works out, they may not get applied for him. Do you think you could have someone fix that? I’d hate for it to have to wait until I got back from my vacation, and I wanted to let you know before I returned.”

      Then put it out of your mind and enjoy your vacation. It’ll be your boss’ responsibility to fix it or pass it to someone else, but you don’t want to spend your entire week off looking over your shoulder to see if someone else catches it first.

      1. Cruciatus*

        That’s the problem–there is no fix. Students are supposed to take the course survey before they receive their grades, then the instructor submits their grades and the surveys are released to them (and me). That way instructors can’t change grades based on information in the surveys (which are anonymous, but probably sometimes certain details will make it obvious who the student was). But thank you. I’m working on chilling out. Reminding myself no one will die from this. No one will lose their job (not even me, but I just hate that I overlooked something). I’ve never had a job quite this stressful before so now I totally get why people sometimes don’t take their vacations! Hopefully this week off will help me chill out and show me that nothing bad will happen just because I’m away. (This is my first lengthy period of time off at this job).

        1. Adam V*

          Yeah, if that’s the case, just let your boss know so she can let the professor know that that’s what happened, and then put it out of your mind. I would be pretty surprised if it goes beyond that.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      If this prof is tenured, he likely has many, many course reviews available, and one summer course evaluation is unlikely to be a make or break situation. I also know a number of professors who despise course rankings as biased popularity contests. There is also the situation where two people in the same course will have radically different evaluations for it, so how useful is this instrument? (Answer: look for multiple instances of similar comments/ignore the outliers)

      TL;DR: the prof is likely to be unconcerned about this.

    3. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

      Tenured prof, summer course? Minor oops. If they need the evals for anything (like applying for promotion) they can put an asterisk next to them. I absolve you, go enjoy your vacation!

  93. legalchef*

    I had an interview on Tuesday. At the time when the interview was set up, I was upfront with them that I wasn’t sure if I would be ok with the commute (it would double my current commute), but that I still definitely wanted to meet with them because a lot would go into that calculation (the people, the work, etc). I think the interview went well, and I really liked everyone, but still wasn’t sure about the commute.

    I sent a thank-you email on Wednesday.

    Now that I’ve had more time to reflect on it, I realize that I am definitely not concerned with the commute like I was, and I also realize I forgot to bring up something about my work that would have been good to mention. Is there anything I can do at this point, since I already sent my thank you? Had I realized this before I sent it, I would have addressed it in the email, but…

    1. ASJ*

      I wouldn’t. If they invite you for a second interview, that would be the time to bring it up and allay any concerns. As it stands, I don’t think it’s worth reaching out again because you rapidly run the risk of becoming the needy/annoying candidate who kept emailing.

      1. legalchef*

        That was my concern! But I am not sure that there will be a second interview… when I asked about next steps there was no mention of one, and they just said that they were going to keep the posting up until it expires the end of the month just in case (which you could read into to mean that they want to give me the job but are keeping it open just in case, or you could read nothing into it at all!). I also don’t know who else is left for me to meet with – I met with the director and other people there in the same position as the one for which I applied, and I also met with a room full of other staff, too.

        1. ASJ*

          IMO, them wanting to leave the posting up probably means they just want to see who else they can draw. It could mean they haven’t found satisfactory candidates, or it could mean that they’re holding out for that “rock star”. I think your best option is to do what AAM says and just try to put it out of your head.

    2. legalchef*

      Sorry – just adding that I didn’t specifically apply knowing that I wouldn’t like the commute. It was a general posting for the same positions at different locations of the same office.

  94. Persephone Mulberry*

    Using Salesforce to develop processes/workflow…

    I started a new job a little over a month ago, in a role that didn’t exist prior to my being hired, so there are no processes in place yet for the work they want me to do. The list of accounts I work on is always evolving as older clients fall off and new clients come in, and I would like to be able to create some kind of tickler system…for example, to be able to see at a glance all of my high-touch accounts and what stage they’re at, what action items they are due for next and when, etc. Maybe a different view for clients that are no longer high-touch but still on my radar and are coming due for a quarterly check in, something like that.

    My company uses Salesforce as their CRM, which is new to me. It seems like this is something SF should be able to do, yes? Can someone point me toward some tutorials that are geared toward this?

    1. Koko*

      You may need to have permission from your IT department to use a Salesforce add-on to accomplish what you describe – particularly the ticklers/reminders that don’t rely on you manually running reports. Depending on what fields are in your contact records, you may also need additional data fields added to records, such as for instance a pick-list showing what stage a high-touch account is at.

      I am familiar with the add-on app Action Plans which does what you describe: http://cloud4good.com/free-app-action-plans/

      But there are almost undoubtedly a lot of other options – there are hundreds of Salesforce add-ons floating around out there. This system of managing high-touch clients is often called “moves management” in nonprofit circles – to get your bearings you might try googling “moves management Salesforce” or “salesforces moves management ticklers” to see how others are using Salesforce to implement this system.

  95. PAX*

    So, I started a new job about 3 months ago and I’m having my first proper review/goal setting session next week. One of the things mentioned during my interview was that they are keen to have someone fresh/with an outside perspective as its been a small team for a long time and they are a bit….stuck in their ways. I’ve seen lots of ways we can improve which should also lead to a better end product for customers, but I worry that coming out with: “All these things are wrong! And some of it is because you’ve not done your job very well! And we suffer from decision paralysis because you’re always travelling! And everyone always says we need to fix things but we never actually do!” will not be the smartest move.

    Part of my struggle is that I would LOVE to have the opportunity to take on all these areas for improvement, but I suspect my boss wants me to focus on other priorities.

    So anyone have any scripts/tips on the best way to suggest implementing new processes (and getting to be the process owner)? Or getting them to realise that what they think is important is not always actually that important – and there should be more focus on getting the product right rather than just selling more of it in its current state?

    1. ASJ*

      Change is hard for people. So very, very hard. I’m facing a situation at work right now that proves it. So I wouldn’t come in with a huge list. I would pick one or two things and maybe phrase it as something like, “I remember during my interview you said you were hoping for a fresh perspective. I’ve noticed X and Y is a reoccurring issue and wondered if maybe Z might be worth implementing for a little while to see what happens?”

      Also focus on things that can/are likely to be changed. The decision paralysis? Not likely to change IMO unless there are major changes to players on the team.

    2. Adam V*

      Two main thoughts:

      1) Try to collect data that shows how getting it *wrong* has added costs – emails from customers or between employees about having to re-do work that went out incorrectly, additional shipping costs if you have to return/replace items, etc. Anything you can do to show that the current process is less efficient will be leverage you can use to say “can I take some amount of control over this process to start making improvements?”

      2) Focus on the smallest single thing you can do to improve the process without drastically changing people’s workflow, and when that works, you have something you can point to and say “see, that wasn’t so bad, now let’s take a slightly bigger step”. That should also be easier to sell to your boss – “let’s try this one tiny thing, and we can look at it again in a month or two and see whether or not it’s improved everything. If it hasn’t, we’ll stop – but you asked me for suggestions for improvements, and here’s one that shouldn’t break the bank.”

    3. Rocky*

      I totally sympathize because I came into the same situation when I started my current job. The above advice is really good. I would also say to focus your energy first on the stuff YOU can change independently, not the stuff others need to change. After that, realize a lot of change doesn’t happen because of inertia, so you have to volunteer to be the person who leads the change if you want to see it happen.

      And yes, change is really, really hard. Change is hard when everyone agrees 100% that it needs to happen. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard a team agree, “Yes, A isn’t working! We’ll definitely start doing B right away!” and then go back to doing A just because of habit and inertia. So it’s just that much harder when people aren’t on board.

    4. catsAreCool*

      Try to word it as suggestions for improvement, and maybe start with things that are easy to change. If you have a lot of ideas, don’t tell all of them at once.

  96. Oryx*

    As I’m sitting here listening to her talk, I just realized my co-worker’s voice is a trigger for my Misophonia. So, y’know, that’s fun.

  97. Extremely Bummed*

    Today is my boss’ last day of work here. He’s been the best boss I’ve ever had and I’m so disappointed that he’s leaving (disappointed for me; I’m happy for him that he’s moving on to a great opportunity). And he brought me flowers as a thank you on his last day of work. My next boss has a huge chair to fill!

  98. Rebecca*

    Any tips on how to thwart after work activities? Our PHB keeps bringing up ideas for us to all have fun together in the evenings. No one, I mean no one, wants to do anything when quitting time arrives except bolt for the door and escape. This, coupled with some 25+ mile commutes for some of us, just makes us cringe when PHB brings this up. No, I don’t want to go to a bar/restaurant, or a baseball game, play bingo, or any other activity in the evenings. My commute eats up enough of my time.

    I’ve already made up my mind to say “no, I have other plans” if this rears its ugly head again, and if PHB pushes it, and tries to make it even semi mandatory, I’m going to request time and a half pay, since I’m non exempt and a work activity has taken me away from my home. That should end the discussion. I know some of my coworkers who live locally will go along to get along, but quite frankly, that’s on them and I have zero interest in any of it.

      2. Rebecca*

        Thank you Alison, that would be great. I know many of my coworkers will be anxious to see what you have to say.

    2. ASJ*

      I would just keep repeating “Sorry, I have other evening commitments” for as long as it takes them to get the hint. The place I currently work for used to have their Christmas/summer party in the evening. The year I came, they decided to try doing it in the afternoon instead. Shocker! Everyone in the office showed up, whereas before their turn out was maybe half that.

      1. Hallway Feline*

        My previous place of employment had their mandatory holiday party at night. It was terrible because they forced all the employees to come back to work after their day ended (for instance, we had drivers who would start their day at 4 am, end at 3 pm, and then have to come back at 6 pm and they lived a fair distance from the office). I thought it was absolutely BS for those employees who probably just wanted to spend time with their families. Don’t even get me started on their lack of food options to accommodate food allergies… Needless to say I’m at a much better office now!

  99. SophieChotek*

    Copyright/Media question –

    Last week or week before in open thread I asked about PR and “earned media”.

    After almost a year of trying to get some “earned media” for the luxury teapots my company produces, our luxury teapot was part of a “round up” in a niche upscale magazine (yay!) [So relieved to have something…]

    On the one hand, I’ve heard that one way to reciprocate with jouranlists is to post to your social media sites when they feature your product and tag them, etc., so they get exposure

    On the other hand, I’ve heard that posting media/photos from publications not your own might violate copyright laws
    — does one always ask permission to share? or repost?

    This is a niche magazine so I’m not sure that it will be online (or is not yet), so I cannot “share” to the company social media pages with a plug-in from the niche magazine online site….

    Any advice?

    1. Adam V*

      Typical guidance is to include a small blurb, with a direct link back to their site, so that people who follow you will get enough of a gist to know whether or not the story might interest them, but not so much that they don’t need to read the whole thing.

      You can share the link without needing permission, but if you want to share their pictures or something, that might cross a line.

      On the other hand, I’ve noticed that a lot of times, if you post the link, then Facebook or Twitter will go grab the top picture and first couple of lines anyway, so maybe you don’t even have to worry about it.

      1. Adam V*

        Oh, if it’s not online, then probably best to just grab the best blurb, and then say “pick up X magazine (June 2016 issue) to read the rest!”

    2. Megs*

      Eeh, I’m not a copyright lawyer, but I’m pretty confident that posting a link + blurb is not a copyright violation, and if you have permission to reprint something in full, you’re in the clear (just make sure to clearly attribute). You’re allowed to reprint segments of other people’s work if you’re commenting/critiquing it even without permission, and linking is basically saying “hey, this is good and you should read it”, right?

      To be safe, of course, it would be polite to ask the author first. I’m sure they’ll appreciate the thought and the traffic/publicity.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Link and headline — 100% fine. No permission needed.

      Link and blurb — totally fine as long as blurb is short — like no more than a paragraph usually. No permission needed.

      Whole article — copyright violation. Permission needed.

  100. Confused Manager*

    I recently became a manager and the people who used to supportive co-workers (throughout the company) seem like they are trying to trip me up, and complaining about even the smallest things! Just to add to it, they don’t complain to me but to one of my supervisors who is kind enough to tell me; if they complained to me I would be happy to explain my side of things.

    So I’m just wondering. Is there anyway I can avoid or atleast stem the flow of negative complaints? They’re so far about inconsequential things but is this just a sign of the underlying discontent I’m facing? Is this even something I can recover from or should I start looking for another position?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Some of this should go away in time as you in charge becomes the new normal.
      In the mean time can you schedule time to sit with each of your employees one on one to just take stock of what they do, what you can help them with to make their jobs easier, and what if any goals they have? Basically get to know them as a manager.

    2. Adam V*

      See if you can get the supervisor to redirect them back to you – or at least respond to them with “have you told ConfusedManager about your thoughts on this?”

      Maybe meet with some of the more frequent complainers individually and let them know your door is always open if they’d like to talk to you about the department goings-on, or even about your own performance – tell them that, as a new manager, you’d be happy to hear how they think you’re doing and the areas they think you could improve. Mention how you’ve heard grumblings from some other supervisors about some potential issues, but until you know exactly what’s going on, it’s hard to nail down a proper solution.

  101. overeducated*

    This is my last day of work before I have 2.5 months off, and I’m both excited and apprehensive. I’ll be at home for the summer with my toddler, who wants 100% attention every moment, so I’m not even going to have time to return emails or phone calls apart from his short nap. It’s going to be great in some ways and SO exhausting in others.

    Then at the end of the summer we move 450 miles away, I start a new full time job with a serious commute, and the kid starts a new day care (which we haven’t yet found) in the same week. It is going to be INSANE. I’m both excited and apprehensive about that too.

    Any parents who went to work full time when their kids were in the toddler day care stage? How did you prepare them and smooth the transition?

    1. Kyrielle*

      Is there any space between the move and the job start? If there is, I might move up his start date so that he can ease in.

      Otherwise, I can only wish you good luck (not because it’s necessarily needed; just because I have no useful advice). Both of mine were in care while I worked full time from before they were 3 months old, so they got very used to it, and neither transitioned to a new school until at least age 4, which is entirely different than the toddler stage in terms of adapting.

      1. overeducated*

        Unfortunately no. I wanted to move earlier so he would have more time to settle in, but we got a really great deal on a place that isn’t available 6 days before my start date, and felt like we had to jump on it. (If only because we need to know exactly where we’re living in order to find a good day care as nearby as possible.)

  102. Songbird*

    My company just instituted a new policy that anyone who has had work data on their personal phone (access to work email, texts from work, etc.) will need to have their phone wiped when they leave the company. Opting out of this isn’t really an option because most of us are expected to be available after hours to at least some degree, so work email/texts/etc. are necessary.

    My question is actually not so much about the policy, though (yes, I know it’s legal ;) ). It’s… okay, this is maybe a dumb question, but my phone is backed up to my personal computer every time I plug it in, so, essentially daily. And I know that that isn’t remotely uncomoon (if you have an iPhone, it’s the default setting, in fact). So if I did quit, and on the last day they deleted various apps and/or just wiped my phone back to factory default… I could go home that same day and restore everything, including all the work data that was the ostensible reason for wiping the thing. The policy doesn’t address this at all; it’s just ‘on the last day, you will hand your phone over to IT, who will remove all company data.” No mention of the high likelihood of the stuff being backed up somewhere.

    I know that our IT department is not so incompetent that they aren’t aware that that’s a thing, so I guess I’m wondering… has anyone seen this happen in the wild? I know these policies exist elsewhere; has the issue of personal backups come up at all? It seems like the wiping is a bit of useless security theater, given that the wipe itself is pointless unless you can somehow track down all the backups, but… I don’t know, I’m mostly just curious.

    (FWIW, regardless of answer, I’m honestly not planning on mentioning this to the company. The only reason I’m kind of ‘sure, whatever’ about the wipe is that I know I can get all my personal apps and data back with one click, honestly. Although I also definitely do not plan to use this information nefariously–if they wipe the phone, I’ll restore it and then manually remove all their proprietary information.)

    1. Rocky*

      We have some similar IT policies that make everyone wonder, “Wait, they know that doesn’t actually work, right?” My thoughts are that it’s mainly some kind of letter-of-the-law risk management, and partly security theater.

    2. Kyrielle*

      The worst part is, it doesn’t work, but it can destroy people’s personal data. I would be so unhappy if I got let go, and they wiped my data, and it took out pictures I’d taken that morning (for example).

      Or…longer ago because I’m terrible about backups. Ahem.

      That said, I simply _will not_ put company anything on my phone. We have that policy too; if they want to put those terms on it, then either they can supply me a phone or I can do without. If _neither_ of those were an option, I might pay for an extra phone just for work, but I’d really really rather not do that. (Luckily, my after-hours access to email is Not A Thing.)

      1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

        That’s my stance too. I’m happy to carry a second phone for the company but company info’s not going on my regular phone, which has pretty much my whole world on it. So far my boss says that a phone for me isn’t necessary. I’m always reachable on the weekends by phone/text and can vpn in on my laptop if anything’s wrong.

  103. Freckles McGee*

    So, I recently started a new job about a month ago and I am loving it. My old job was not a good fit for me whatsoever (for an idea: three people, including me, performing all functions of a nonprofit).
    Anywho… I kept my old work e-mail on my phone since I was still receiving e-mails from people thinking I still worked there, to which I would redirect all messages accordingly. I recently discovered that my coworker changed my e-mail to gain access to my account. This is not out of the ordinary since he does this with all former employee e-mail accounts. I don’t have anything to hide in my e-mails, but I was wondering if it’s illegal in any way to re-login under the new password? I couldn’t find anything answering my question on Google.
    (To be honest, this coworker in particular always came across as sneaky and I’m a little worried he would send e-mails posing to be me at this organization)

    1. Megs*

      Illegal as in criminal? I wouldn’t think so. It’s possible it could be a terms-of-service violation, but I would suspect that you wouldn’t have any ownership rights in a work account. Same with privacy – that’s all about expectations and broadly speaking, one is fairly limited in their expectation of privacy with respect to work devices (SCOTUS had a fascinating case a few years ago about a cop getting fired over “dirty” texts on a work phone and pretty much said the guy was out of luck).

    2. Graciosa*

      I would do some research on the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, or consult an attorney who practices in this area (which I do not).

      I would be VERY concerned about the legality of continuing to access electronic communications which do not belong to you after the proper owner changed the password. As a former employee trying to essentially break into the email account, I’m not sure what kind of argument could be made that this was not a violation of the law.

      Perhaps someone who practices in this area can come up with one, but I can’t, which makes me think that the smart thing to do is to stop.

  104. Dawn*

    Damn, I’ve been so busy today I haven’t even checked the open thread yet and it’s 2pm! HAPPY FRIDAY Y’ALL!

    I’ve been busy ’cause my process improvement stuff has been churning along without a hitch so far… fingers crossed it’ll stay that way. Warms the cockles of my cold little heart because change is possible and it is good!

  105. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I work with a woman who is very senior in the company (I’m kind of in the middle) who gets really, really worked up about stuff. I’m pretty high-strung myself, but I’m a problem-solver, so I like to approach issues from a, “What can I do to fix it?” standpoint. Today, this woman is having a technical issue and she called me to solve it because the person who worked on it, who reports to me, is on vacation.

    That is all fine. I’m happy to help. What is NOT fine is when Senior Woman says, “Is Junior available? I need to talk to her about this.” “No, she’s out today.” “But is she around? Is she reachable?” Luckily, Junior was on a plane so I didn’t have to push back too hard.

    But this is not OK. Not at all! We’ve had several company-wide discussions recently about actually taking time off, and even if we didn’t, why is her first response to bother someone– especially someone so junior– on her valuable day off? This combined with a general freaking out and finger-pointing (Senior wants to blame everyone instead of trying to fix it) made me super angry today. I think I need to have a discussion with my boss (he’s Senior’s peer), but I kind of feel like that’s tattling or bitching. What should I do? Should I even do anything?

    We’re a very small company and I’m trying really hard to argue for back-up and redundancy because of stuff like this. Sigh. My blood pressure doesn’t like this one bit.

    1. esra*

      If you can trust your boss with it, I’d have that talk with them. Especially since you’ve just had company-wide discussions about letting people have time off.

      It’s not bitching or tattling if you frame it in the way of asking for advice about dealing with it.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I am kind of annoyed that she asked you the same question twice.

      She sounds like a nervous, jumpy person. Sometimes people are like this because they are filled with self-doubt. They do not believe in their own abilities. You might try asking Peer how he gets Senior to calm down. I would expect this to be an on-going issue with her, though, where you constantly have to help her come down from the ceiling.

      It would probably be easier to get control over your blood pressure. You can tell yourself that just because she is upset does not mean you have to get upset. For example, let’s say you did not stop her and she called Junior. Then that Junior’s thing to deal with. Junior could decide not to answer the phone. Or maybe Junior could answer and then say, “Sorry, I am not on the clock now, but if you authorize OT pay for me, I can talk to you on the phone.” Try to focus on just the relationship between the two of you and let others handle their relationship with her. There is only so much you are going to do for a person who does not want to calm down.

      I am hoping at some point we can drift away from the term tattling. If someone has unprofessional behavior it’s not tattling to want to talk it through and look for solutions. Either talk to her about calming down or ask Peer for pointers. Start off slowly, with “I see you are upset” then move on to “Okay there is no need to get upset here’s why….”. With some people I have commented enough that I can now say things like, “It’s not the end of the world, it’s just not!”

      Be prepared for worst case scenario. I have a friend who says, “This is who I am and I will not change.” Because this is a friend, I say things like “Heart disease? Stroke? Find reasons to calm down before you end up in an ambulance.”

    3. Windchime*

      Can you just simply say, “Sorry, Junior is on vacation and unavailable. What can I do to help you?”. If she keeps asking about Junior, repeat: “No, Junior is unavailable but I’m here to help.”

      The unofficial policy where I work is to NOT contact people while they are out on vacation unless there is a true emergency. I was on vacation awhile back and someone on my team texted me to ask me if I preferred a meeting at X time or Y time (scheduled for after I was to return to work). NOT an emergency. Schedule the meeting, and I will respond when I’m back to work. It was really annoying and yanked me out of my vacation frame of mind for a couple of hours.

  106. Jillociraptor*

    I have a colleague who often makes errors. My boss will sometimes ask me to support him to get things done, and I’m wondering how I should respond when he makes errors once the task is in his hands.

    For example, this week we set up several emails to go out to members of a new committee. I drafted the emails, and made a bulleted list of the details (what should be attached, who should be copied, etc.). He was responsible for sending the emails out. Several emails had errors – wrong attachments, wrong names, wrong recipients.

    I want to make sure that my boss knows that I am doing what she asked me to do, but I also don’t want to seem overly defensive or like I’m trying to defensively pin things on my colleague. What do you do in situations like this?

    1. fposte*

      I’d go back to your boss and ask. I’d be frank–“Look, I don’t know what too many errors is, so maybe this is within an acceptable range, but incidences like the email errors are things I can’t prevent, and I don’t know if you want to know about those or not.”

      1. Confused-a-lot*

        I’d agree with going back to your boss and flagging the issue as soon as possible.

        1. Jillociraptor*

          Thanks for the gut check, both of you. It makes sense to do a quick check in with her. There’s just something that feels a little…tattle-y about it, but I am and will be matter of fact about bringing the issue to her attention.

          Usually, she notices these things anyway, so it’s not so much the error itself as the fact that the error happened once the task was in Colleague’s hands. I even think she assumes this, but I do want to make sure that she knows and sees that if she asks me to do something, I do it and well!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            It can’t be “tattle-y” if it is out in the wide open for all to see.

            Just ask her how she wants you to handle things after it leaves your hands.

  107. BlackEyedPea*

    You guys…

    It’s so weird having a manager who is supportive. I have worked for so many jerks and in so many toxic workplaces that it’s still a bit weird when people in the workplace want to help me instead of throw me under the bus. I haven’t experienced this in a LONG time, and I love it!

    1. Seriously Bummed*

      Definitely enjoy it! My current manager (for the next two hours, anyway – today is his last day) has been extremely kind and supportive to work for. I’ve also had a number of non-supportive managers over the years, so I understand how truly wonderful it is to have one that is supportive.

      1. BlackEyedPea*

        It is! It reminds me of Alison’s posts about how when you’re in a toxic place for too long, at the next job you can end up being the toxic person. I feel like this job is helping me break all the bad habits I learned as survival skills. It’s giving me a new normal and I’m very happy about that.

    2. Laura*

      Yes! My boss is such a sweet woman. I keep expecting her to fire me out of the blue, but then I remind myself that she would never do that. It’s hard to get over past bad experiences, isn’t it?

      1. BlackEyedPea*

        Definitely! I find that often when something not-so-great happens, I’m worried my boss will throw me under the bus as previous managers would have. Instead, Current Boss will understand it was not my fault and we will tackle the problem together as allies. It’s refreshing!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I have a good boss, also. She is an extreme, if I make a mistake sometimes she will tell others she did it to take the heat off me. I tell her she does not have to do that. Love my boss. You know, it makes me actually want to work harder. She says I do things that are not in my job description. yeah. I wonder why. lol.

  108. Need cheering up*

    I need a sanity check please:

    I am a teapot lead at my company and several people have dotted line to me. Our job is very specific and it takes several years of training to reach a certain standard and maintain this independently. Every month I spend time developing and mentoring three people who have a dotted line to me. I feel I am partially doing a manager’s job, and have asked my boss to align my position with my responsibilities and give me direct people responsibility, for example of one junior person. For various reasons he is having none of it. As much as I try I cannot adapt to this situation any longer; I am doing too much of a role that is not formalised, and worry that ultimately it will not be recognised as having experience in people management, when this is not the case.

    Am I being petty or is this normal?

    1. Need cheering up*

      I should add another thing that bothers me: effectively I help people progress in their role, and I struggle to see how I am progressing. I find this unfair, which bugs me the most, together with the anxiety that at some point in the future people will have progressed with my help and I am stuck.

    2. Graciosa*

      This is normal.

      There are often lead positions which include a lot of mentoring, coaching, organizing and assigning work, and a host of other activities that would be part of a manager’s job – *if* not delegated to a lead.

      The key factor to determine whether you are actually doing a manager’s job is whether or not you have hiring and firing authority. If you don’t, you don’t have managerial responsibility.

      I think you’re making a mistake, however, in not recognizing that these lead positions do have value – both in developing your skills and in qualifying you (with a decent amount of experience as a lead) to take the next step to actual management. However demanding to be named a manager immediately when performing a job as a lead is probably going to read as a lack of understanding of the respective roles.

      1. Need cheering up*

        Thanks, your reply is very valuable. Well, I have been doing this role for over 2 years, so have kept my head down for a while.

        I agree I do not have full managerial responsibility, as I obviously do not hire and fire, nor do I do reviews with the people, recommend salaries etc.

        I am actually quite relieved someone thinks this is normal.

        1. E*

          Perhaps you can think of this as cross-training instead of management. You’re sharing your knowledge and skill-set with these folks but you don’t manage them in regard to hiring/firing/evaluations.

  109. MoinMoin*

    Dangit, I forgot about open thread and now it’s too late to probably get a response.
    I know this must be in the archives somewhere but I couldn’t find exactly what I was looking for- what exactly is the intent when a job says “local candidates only”? Are they basically saying “we’re not paying relocation” or “we want you to interview on short notice and don’t want to deal with you having to get here” or all of the above or something else entirely?
    In my situation I’m not local I’m already committed to being there (house sold, family moved, new local address, I’m just not physically there because I’m working in my original location and am loathe to move without a job if I don’t have to), so I satisfy the former concern, but I feel like even if I explain that in a cover letter they’re going to just see “not local” and think I didn’t read the description.

    1. fposte*

      All of the above plus whatever their private issue is.

      I’d still apply, though, in your case. That’s pretty committed to the new location. If they chuck your application, you’re no worse off than before you applied.

    2. Megs*

      I’m stuck at work for at least another couple of hours so WOO to late questions.

      I would guess that it probably leans towards them not wanting to deal with out of towners generally. It seems like if they just don’t want to pay relocation/interview costs they wouldn’t feel the need to limit their applicant pool generally but would figure that people would self-select out. I know I’ve read a lot here about companies being wary of non-local applicants broadly, though, what with concerns over people leaving if they don’t like the area or deciding last minute they don’t want to move at all.

      1. MoinMoin*

        Good to think about, thanks. I’m sorry you’re stuck at work but I appreciate you putting it to good use (for me, at least).

      2. Not So NewReader*

        A few towns over from me is a tourist town, there is lots of seasonal work. But some of it is not seasonal and employers get ticked when people lie on their application to indicate they want permanent work then they leave at the end of the season. It’s an on-going issue that will probably never end. A local address would indicate the person may not quit at the end of the season.

    3. bb-great*

      In your case I would just use your new address on your resume and explain your situation in the cover letter. imo most reasonable employers would still consider you unless they were scheduling interviews, like, later that day.

  110. Regina 2*

    What are some tips and strategies when you’re going into a team that is renowned for being extremely sharp and results-oriented? They’re known for debating/hashing out issues and are very experienced and smart. I’ve been asked to join more because they see potential in me, but I don’t believe it just yet. How do I train myself to think like them and hold my own against them? I want to prove them right that I have the ability. I think I do, but after not being challenged for so long, my brain feels like it has atrophied.

    1. Megs*

      I tend to find that smart people (who aren’t butts) enjoy explaining things to people, and that asking smart questions is a good way to impress (people who aren’t butts).

      I totally hear you on the brain attrophy thing. My job isn’t hugely challenging on the best of days and we’re in an especially unbelievably boring phase right now (she says making her 24th comment in this thread).

      1. Regina 2*

        Yes, smart questions — I think that’s where I struggle. I only seem to have dumb questions. :-\

    2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Don’t worry so much about it, really and truly.

      For the first few weeks, just sit and listen. Take notes. Allow yourself to understand how each person contributes, what they think/feel most, etc. Try to understand the dynamics of the group. Don’t be silent if asked to contribute, but don’t be afraid to just observe at first. In addition, before responding, never be afraid to take a few seconds to pull your thoughts together. A well-placed hmmmm does wonders!

      Eventually, I would say after 3-4 weeks, you’re going to start feeling more comfortable around these people, and more like you can speak up. I see that you responded to someone that you ask dumb questions. I can assure you, there is rarely such a thing as a dumb question (except the one that goes unasked)..and I’m a librarian, so I get asked all sorts of questions. What you may see as “dumb”, they likely see as someone who is willing to speak up, ask questions (even when it may feel uncomfortable to ask one), and LEARN.

      Have confidence in your abilities, friend! You CAN do this. Trust me, a team that is that sharp is not going to select someone they don’t see real potential in, so they clearly see potential in you.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Try not to be too disappointed when you find out they are regular people. It takes time but you will come to see them as regular people with foibles, short-comings, the whole works.

      One thing I do to look more intelligent is keep my mouth shut. People just assume I am thinking this really intelligent thing and I am just wondering where the bathroom is. Funny, but true.

      Learn people’s names and what their specialty is, then look to see what they seem good at. Just knowing who to direct a question to can make you look/feel on the ball.
      You will notice that everyone differs to Bob for all questions on X but when Y comes up they all want Jane’s opinion. Make note of what the group is doing.

      One thing about really intelligent people, is sometimes they miss what is right in front of them. They are so use to dealing with complexity that they skate right by the simple answers because in their world everything is complex. In the beginning you might make a few points by just being the fresh eyes in the room, the one who notices everything because it is new to you.

      If you focus on proving them right all you will do is get yourself stressed out. Instead, I’d suggest a focus of looking for how you can help their process.

      If you make a misstep, just vow not to make the same misstep twice.

      And understand that it will be a bit before you think like they do. It took them a while to get there, they understand that it will take you a bit to get into the swing of it also.

      Here’s the good news part, though. When you work with an experienced crew like this, they shorten your learning curve A LOT. They already have tried 25 things that failed, so you can skip those 25 things and move to something that works.

      I have been most fortunate to work with people who are smarter than me and have a lot more education that I do. Just let them sharpen you just as they have sharpened each other and consider it as an on-going process for as long as you work with them.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        PS. I find it comforting that there are people out there smarter than me. I already know what is and isn’t inside my head, so I know I will never make world peace or anything like that. Let their smarts be comforting to you. This will help your brain relax and you will be able to think along with them rather than running to catch up to them.

  111. JennPo*

    OMG, OMG, OMG!!! I just found out that my feature article on women and engineering entrepreneurship won an Award of Excellence. I solicited a bunch of interviews from the Open Thread here, and some of my best leads came from your recommendations. Thanks everyone for being such an open, supportive, and amazing community! (I’ll post a link to the article in the reply.)

    4. PAX*

      Congratulations! I remember you posting about that so awesome to see it come full circle!

  112. esra*

    While we’re all venting: How come no one in this company knows how to use an em dash
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I had a wonderful conversation the other day about how much I love semicolons. A co-worker, who used to be a copy editor, hates semicolons, but he respects that I like them and know how to use them.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s because most people don’t. I used to teach high school English, and a lot of my students would do this:

      Ask a Manager- a popular site amongst awesome people, who also happen to be online- publishes at least one new blog post a day.

      instead of:

      Ask a Manager—a popular site amongst awesome people, who also happen to be online—publishes at least one new blog post a day.

      The double-dash I can understand:

      Ask a Manager–a popular site amongst awesome people, who also happen to be online–publishes at least one new blog post a day.

      But the dash and space afterward? Where did that even come from?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Shoot… the double-dash got converted to what looks like an en dash. It’s supposed to be two hyphens.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Lol. THAT is why it often looks like people don’t know how to do this. I know what should be used, but I’m at the mercy of Microsoft.

  113. CanadianKat*

    When should I tell my coworkers I’ve separated from my spouse?

    Reading the story of the poster who got engaged made me think of an issue I’ll have to deal with sooner or later. The group I work with is fairly small and we do share personal info (like family life). When I joined a year ago, I told them I was married with a kid, showed my wedding pics. Six months ago, we split up. It has become clear that the split is permanent. There are personal issues I have to work through (grief, guilt, blame, etc.), and I don’t feel ready to talk about it with others, because feel that they’ll want to know details (what happened? who left whom? did it have anything to do with a personal living situation that they know about?).

    I feel bad about intentionally hiding this from them (not lying, but definitely obfuscating – e.g. saying “we” in reference to weekend activities, when I mean just my son and I, and my colleagues thinking this also includes spouse).

    Would it be better to tell earlier – and be prepared to stop any questions about details (at the risk of appearing abrupt or non-collegial), or later – after I’ve come to terms with everything and formulated a “story” (not a lie, but a way of explaining what happened to others without seeming too off-putting, but without revelaing anything embarrasing – and to be honest, right now, I’m embarrased even about the fact that we’ve separated).

    (Oh, and when I do tell them, I won’t be able to lie about when the separation occurred: my boss lives a few doors down and may already know. He is a great guy and I’m sure will say nothing, but I don’t want him to catch me in a lie – even one that doesn’t concern him/work.)

    1. Megs*

      I think you should give yourself permission to take all the time you need with this – no matter how smoothly things go, this is still a really rough patch in your life and you are absolutely allowed not to talk about it. If it comes up and you decide to mention it to someone, you can always say something like “I’m not ready to talk about it right now, but thanks for your good wishes.”

    2. Confused-a-lot*

      First of all, really sorry to hear about what you’re going through.

      I’ve never been through a divorce but I did go through a nasty break-up a while back that eventually I reached the point where I couldn’t not mention it to co-workers (like yours, we’d talk about weekend activities and stuff and, after a while, there wasn’t any covering up that ‘we’ was now ‘me’).

      I wouldn’t feel bad about not disclosing it to them – it’s your personal information and you have the right to disclose it as and when you feel comfortable doing so. With me, it just came up naturally in conversation about what we were doing over the weekend and, to be honest, it was just as simple as saying “Hey, we split, so…” and then telling them that I was still working through the emotions that came with it and people let me work through it without prying.

      Maybe I was just lucky to have good co-workers, but I think most people have been in a not dissimilar situation and will understand that you might just want to process those feelings on your own, without feeling you were being abrupt or rude.

    4. Nanc*

      When you’re ready to share the news, you can end with something along the lines of:

      This is a difficult time for me and ex and I find it painful to talk about the situation. I appreciate any help in helping stay focused on our projects here at the office.

      Gives you an out if people keep asking . . . “I need to focus on work here at the office, what can you tell me about the new Paleo Chocolate Teapot project?”

    5. Joanna*

      The timing is your choice. Unless it impacts your ability to do your job (which is unlikely), it isn’t your colleagues’ business. If you’d prefer to stay away from sharing details, respect for your family is a reason people will understand. So perhaps you could say something like “Unfortunately my husband and I did separate recently. It is of course a really difficult thing to go through. I’ve decided that out of respect for my ex and the rest of my family that it would be most appropriate that it didn’t talk much about the details.”

  114. Smedley*

    Been at my job several years and I’m proud to say I’ve grown my position and role–I’m managing the data on all of our teapot buyers and helping to identify new ones, and it’s a big job! Over the last year I have been trying to express the need for more support for data entry on teapot sales since our existing team is being asked for more reporting and analysis of the sales data, but to little avail. Then at my review last week, I was told that the entire teapot marketing division had just that day been eliminated from our company and that I would now be in charge of teapot marketing–developing, preparing, and distributing marketing materials on a quarterly basis to our entire teapot database, with no additional support! Way back at the very beginning of my career I had a tiny bit of experience in this area, but I have nowhere near enough experience to do this job effectively, on top of my other duties, with no assistance. Besides–I took at data job, not a marketing job! Please, anyone–what can I do??

    1. esra*

      As someone in marketing, the idea of cutting an entire marketing team and just dumping it on someone else is so wrong and short-sighted that I can’t even think of an argument you could use on someone who thought that was a good idea in the first place.

      That said, if it were me, I would:
      1. Express my concerns in detail (not longwinded, but addressing each step on a high level), and,
      2. Speak up as soon as anything gets out of hand, this way you’re keeping them apprised of the need for… actual marketing as it happens.

    2. Joanna*

      This is such an obnoxious move on their behalf. If they’re not willing to assign a normal staff member to the marketing responsibilities, perhaps they’d be willing to pay for a freelancer to do a little bit of work to help get the marketing plan happening?

      A couple of ideas for if you’re really stuck doing stuff on your own:
      – Don’t try to create your marketing materials from scratch if you don’t have to. For graphic design, Canva is an amazing tool with lots of templates that allows you to create professional looking graphic design without having to have design experience. Your email marketing software probably also has templates. You might also be able to reuse stuff the previous marketing people created.
      – A little bit of knowledge can go a long way. There’s lots of free or cheap marketing courses available online (Coursera has some good ones). There is also so many marketing podcasts, you might even be able to find on specifically focused on marketing in your company’s field. Of course there’s also a lot of books. Two favourites of mine are Jab Jab Jab Right Hook by Gary Vaynerchuk (on social media marketing) and The Fortune Cookie Principle by Bernadette Jiwa (on marketing strategy and customer service philosophy).
      – If you live in a reasonably sized city, there’s probably marketing focused meetup groups. These can be a great place to learn more about marketing and get feedback on your ideas from more experienced people.

    3. Miss Displaced*

      If they eliminated the entire teapot marketing department from your company are they allowing/paying for you to utilize outside resources to create the teapot marketing materials?

      Basically
      1. Can you hire an outside agency or contractor to do this work, with you managing the projects?
      2. Can you hire some assistance for the low-level administrative work so that you can take on this additional
      work?

      I find a lot of companies will dump entire departments like this, but be perfectly fine paying MORE for outside contractors such as ad agencies/marketing firms and freelancers. It’s very short-sighted, as it often costs more than keeping staff, but somehow they must be able to justify this to the board as not having those employees on the books for payroll. It’s weird, and in my opinion, not a good thing for business.

  115. Beezus*

    I recently got shifted to a newly created role on my team, and my old position is posted. Someone I worked with on another team a couple of years ago reached out to my manager to express interest in the position. My boss asked me about him yesterday, and my facial expression apparently said “heck no, don’t interview him!” before I could frame a less blunt and more helpful way to say that in words. (I need to work on my poker face.)

    I felt a little bad about shooting down his chances, but then I had to follow up with him today about a problem, and I have no regrets! He made a mistake, fudged numbers to hide it, and reacted poorly to negative feedback. Bullet dodged.

    2. Joanna*

      Don’t feel bad. If he is so bad that he causes such a strong instinctive negative reaction, his flaws were most likely going to become obvious somehow.

  116. sparklealways*

    Any advice in responding to coworkers who are convinced that another coworker has a crush on you when they don’t?

    I don’t care that they think that or ask me about it, but when I say “No, we are just friends. I understand why you think he likes me, but he really doesn’t…,” they will NOT let it go!

    1. esra*

      I’d ask them outright why they’re not letting it go. Maybe they think the ribbing is fun or cute, and by just neutrally asking that, you can let them know it isn’t.

    2. Laura*

      Say something like “You realize it’s totally unprofessional to discuss this, right?” and give them a good long stare.

      1. sparklealways*

        I haven’t… sometimes this individual comes up organically and I’m like “oh crap… here we go again,” but I think I have to be more direct about how it’s not welcome and not appreciated.

        1. Megs*

          Yeah, it sounds like this has gone past the point of worrying about being rude. Hopefully they knock it off!

    4. Jillociraptor*

      “You really talk about this a lot.” Pause for an extremely uncomfortable period of time, while maintaining eye contact and a neutral-to-curious/concerned expression.

    6. Joanna*

      Perhaps a suitable response could be something like, “I have no idea whether he does or not, but ether way that’s his business. It’s kinda awkward and inappropriate for us to speculate on that.”

  117. TotesMaGoats*

    Moved on to the actively working my network stage to try and get away from this crazy train. To the point of looking outside of my field to related positions. There’s too much to write a post but even if everything worked out and everyone basically got out of my way and let me do my job, I still couldn’t be as successful as I wanted or needed to be because there isn’t budget or people power to accomplish the stated goals…which were created in a vacuum without me.

    But I’m also trying to be really strategic about my next move. I do not want to pull another move to somewhere as bad or worse. I went to a great emerging leaders conference (to explore as a possible future sponsor) and one of the sessions I got to attend gave me a lot of food for thought. The speaker told us to really think about the must have’s, must not have’s and negotiable when job searching. Kind of like a SWOT. What are the things you absolutely must have from a work situation and what you absolutely won’t deal with and then the things that are up in the air. Right now, tons of travel and evening events are not going to happen. I’m finding that title/power is not something I really care too much about. I want to have duties that bring me joy in a place that empowers me to do the job I’m hired for and paid at a level that meets my financial need. It’s not all about the next promotion right now. It was pretty eye opening for me. And to some extent has opened me up to opportunities.

    At a venting lunch today, work BFF and I agreed that whoever got out first treated the other to a mani/pedi and if we managed to get out together it was a full spa day. So, at least there’s that to look forward to.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Think about job requirement as a SWOT exercise is brilliant. I actually did a bit of that in my last search, and that also made me realize that I will never work for a family owned business ever again.

    2. Joanna*

      The SWOT exercise sounds like a great one. Another way you could work in the problem is to design what your perfect work day would look like. How would it start? Would it have lots of people time or lots of time working on your own? A diversity of tasks or getting really focused on one task? Would it involve heading out to client/customer sites or staying in the office? Obviously no job will align perfectly with your ideal workday, but knowing how that looks might help you narrow down possibilities.

  118. Cool Beans*

    How do I deal with this pushy recruiter? She works at a recruiting company and is sending me opportunities that are almost exactly my salary now. I’ve told her my expectations but she insists on scheduling the phone interviews anyway.

    How do I get her to listen and stop pressuring me?

      1. Cool Beans*

        Well the thing is, I engaged with her first (via LinkedIn).

        I also don’t want to burn the bridge in case she does have some good opportunities for me.

        1. Graciosa*

          Well, based on past performance, that doesn’t seem likely to be the case. I would be inclined to take Laura’s advice.

          For a recruiter, matching candidates with suitable opportunities is the core of the job. If you’ve told her your requirements and she ignores them, I’m not sure why you think that’s going to change.

          If you really want to try to salvage this, you could have a very direct conversation to make it clear (presumably again) what you are and are not interested in pursuing. If she still doesn’t get it – or if you’ve already had this conversation – then you need to follow Laura’s advice.

          Your alternative is to do nothing and let her continue to waste everyone’s time.

    2. Joanna*

      Perhaps something like this. “Hi________, thanks for connecting me with some opportunities. I’ve decided that now is not the right time to move on from my current role so it’s best we don’t waste your clients time with phone interviews for roles I won’t be moving forward with. I’ll get back in touch when I’m next considering making a career move.”

  119. Anonsie*

    I’m going through a blitz of phone interviews right now. Since I’m in academia, I’m usually being interviewed by a hiring committee of 4-7. Should I still send a thank-you note to all of the interviewers? Even in situations where I haven’t had any of the interviewers’ names confirmed via email, and could potentially catch the wrong name or miss someone?

    1. Laura*

      I work in higher ed. You’re not expected to send notes to everyone. Just reach out to your contact and say “Thank you so much for the opportunity. Please share my thanks to the team who interviewed me.” Or something like that.

      I didn’t send any thank-you notes since I was only in contact with a secretary (who I have still never met!) who scheduled the interviews.

    2. Megs*

      I’ve done a lot of panel interviews and I’ve definitely tried to email thank everyone, but it’s not too usual that I don’t get a name or forget a name or whatever. I’ve never worried about it before – I suspect most of those notes go straight into the electronic circular file.

  120. Unintended Job Hopper*

    I’ve got a question about how to better present my job history in a cover letter or my resume. For reference, I work in an industry (think tech/marketing/advertising) in a major US city where turnover isn’t really uncommon. However, I’ve had some odd luck in my career (I seem to have a knack for picking places that are great to begin with, and then they go completely bonkers), and I definitely have done more job-hopping than I’d like, though I think at least a few of those were for valid reasons – see below:

    1 year: Company A was sold/restructured after 6 months of me working there, and my role was set to be completely changed (from marketing researcher/coordinator to sales cold calling), so I found another job that was more suited to my career interests.
    2 years: Company B was fine for the first year, but then they started losing clients and having layoffs every other week; I left to save my own skin.
    1 year – Big Name in the field, but work ended up being completely different than what was represented in my interview. They also instituted a pay freeze right when I was promised a promotion, and I wasn’t making a ton of money. I ultimately left after a little over a year (and recognize now that I probably should have stayed here longer, but I left for a company that I really believed was somewhere that I could grow and learn).
    1 year: Company D promoted me within 6 months; however, the last few months I was there, there were a LOT of restructures due to client scopes changing (teams changing multiple times during projects, no job descriptions, and I had 4 direct supervisors). It was a pretty chaotic environment (and the first toxic boss(es) of my career), and every time I would try to talk to the HR team or my leadership, they would ignore the meetings or blow me off. It culminated in my termination for very vague reasons, though it was a pretty mutual parting of ways, because the environment was causing me serious health issues.

    So that leads to today, where I’ve been unemployed for about 6 weeks, and have been searching for jobs. I’ve gotten a good number of bites on my resume (I have good experience and skills) and a few in person interviews, and most people that I actually speak to and walk through my job history have been (or at least seemed) sympathetic. However, I understand that I’m probably getting dumped in the trash heap due to changing jobs so quickly at a lot of other places, and would like to try to address it as proactively as possible. I’m really committed to finding the right fit and staying there as long as possible, and want to paint myself as the best possible candidate from the get go. Is there any way to address this in a resume or cover letter without coming off as desperate or suspiciously overly explanatory?

    1. Joshua E*

      Do you have any outside of work responsibilities (volunteering, professional societies, consulting, etc.) that you’ve stuck with for a long time? If you have anything like that that can be turned into an employment related topic you can indirectly slip in a reference to long-term stability in your cover letter. “Since 2013 I’ve served on the board of my local soccer league as X, which is great for this position because Y” can help show that you can stick with a long term assignment.

      But, it sounds like your resume and cover letter right now are doing pretty well for you if you’re getting interviews. I wouldn’t try to change it too much if it’s bringing you success! Obviously the people interviewing you already know your job history and it didn’t stop them from talking with you.

      Good luck!

  121. super anon*

    i had my first performance review ever today! it went really well, i have exceeded expectations and got amazing feedback on my role for the next year. i got the best raise possible (4%) and my bosses are willing to reclassify my position so i can get a substantial raise and a higher title to match the level of work and responsibility i currently have. i have to give a huge shoutout to Allison & the AAM commentariat – without all of the advice i’ve read here over the past 3 years i don’t think i would have done as well. some of the things they touched on in the review were things i picked up from here, like bringing solutions and not just problems to bosses, that they brought up as real strengths.

    also i have to admit, my moral has significantly improved since i went to my bosses about my toxic coworker last week. i’m still having issues with her, but they are working with me to resolve them, and we also were able to resolve a lot of the processes issues, etc that i had that were making me unhappy.

    all in all – it’s been a great week!

  122. Confused-a-lot*

    I’ve got a sinking feeling I’ve done something to annoy my new line manager but I can’t be sure. I feel like she’s downplaying my projects so they don’t get as much air time in front of the big bosses as they used to and deliberately moving the goal posts I have to meet so I’ll always fail and then bringing this up in public. She’s also handed over projects I’ve been working on to other team members.

    However, I’m also wondering if it’s in my head. I don’t have as full an overview of all the projects going on as she does so maybe my projects aren’t as important anymore, she’s currently trying to implement some new systems so perhaps my interpretation of ‘moving goalposts’ is a shakeup in progress and I have been pretty overworked as of late so perhaps handing over my projects is a well-meaning attempt to lower my workload.

    Unfortunately, I’m not close enough to her to go, “Hey, can you fill me in on your rationale here before it drives me to madness?” or “Hey, when you handed that project over to X the other day, I didn’t really understand why. Am I not doing a good enough job and, if so, would you mind letting me know what I can do to improve?”. I also know she’s having some problems with some of the other managers criticising how she’s been doing things so am worried that stepping in and essentially saying that I, also, am not 100% on her management techniques would just make that situation worse.

    I also have reason to think that I might not be her favourite person. It’s been pointed out that one or two of the things I did to try and help her settle in could have been misinterpreted as overstepping my (reasonably junior) mark, although it certainly wasn’t intended that way.

    I’d really like to get back on the right path with her (or at least know where she’s coming from so I know how not to get further along the wrong path). Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      That if you report to her, you *are* close enough to ask her what’s going on, and you should do that. “You’ve moved a few of my projects over to other people and have tweaked some of the expectations, and I wanted to ask if there were any concerns about my performance. I know there are a lot of changes happening so I’m happy if they were just a part of reshuffling, but I’d really like to work well for you so if there are things you think I could improve on I’d love to know.”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You have a lot of speculation there and not a lot of facts.
      Okay, you have a slippery slope of stinkin’ thinkin’ going on.

      Before this gets worse, go in and have a heart-to-heart with your boss as fposte suggests. Ask her point blank where you could be doing better. (We all can be doing better at something.) Let her know what interests you, she won’t know if you don’t say.

      Food for thought: There is a big difference between telling someone they make managerial mistakes and asking a boss what you can do to be better at your job. Others are being critical, you are offering to help more.

  123. Daisy Dukes*

    Sales professionals: I’m interviewing now (3 years of sales experience) and I’m curious what kind of environments/work cultures you have come across. Is it usually mostly male, super competitive, and go out and drink afterwards?

    1. Laura*

      When I was in sales, it was a very casual, energetic, young environment– but probably a 50/50 split of men and women. The culture was definitely competitive, but not unnecessarily so, since teams were doing all kinds of different things and at different levels. It was very much a drinking-heavy company. All offsite events were centered around alcohol. I found it to be kind of immature, which is what made me want to leave in the first place.

      1. Daisy Dukes*

        Thank you for your reply! Did you end up staying in sales or did you shift to something that used your skills?

        1. Laura*

          I left sales and went elsewhere. I was terrible at sales, but the company encouraged new grads to apply regardless of major/experience. This was a real problem, since I saw firsthand that the successful salespeople were the ones with previous experience.

  124. References*

    I’m sure this has been asked here before, but how do I address the fact that I can’t use my previous employer as a reference? I was doing three people’s jobs, working 60 hours a week, and was being paid $32k (in Los Angeles). The company was small and both my supervisor and the owner of the company were not happy about me leaving (um, maybe they should have paid me a legal wage?) I found a job somewhere else, but am now looking for employment again. How do I address the fact that I can’t use my previous employer as a reference?

    1. Adam V*

      Do they give you a bad reference, or do they refuse to admit you worked there? If the latter, you can show pay stubs / W2s / tax forms to prove your side, at which point a rational employer will say “oh, then I can’t trust anything they say”.

      If it’s the former, see if you can get a lawyer to send them a “stop it” letter outlining the consequences of lying about the quality of your work.

      1. References*

        I’m not sure, but I have a feeling they’d give me a bad reference. Thank you for the tip.

    2. Hoopla*

      Do you actually know they are giving out bad references? Many people assume this but are shocked to find out that there ‘scorned’ boss gave them a glowing recommendation somewhere else or even just a standard reference.

      My husband had been tipped off by an interviewer that his past employer had given a horrendous reference and urged them not to hire him. To get the real details he went to our local employment centre (which calls for references to give you an indication of who is good/bad to list) and discovered the employer was telling blatant lies. I would recommend anyone to take this approach or even setup for a friend to call as if it were a reference for a job and take notes for you.

      But to really say they can’t call them and not have it look bad, I’d have your story all documented (as Adam V has mentioned). Get any official documentation that you can that shows your employment dates, responsibilities, performance reviews, paystubs… anything. If you worked with clients that liked you, you could reach out to them for letters of recommendation for your services.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      How many jobs have you had? And is the job “somewhere else” potentially a reference source (i.e., ideally your manager is chill enough that you can say you’re looking without being let go or, less ideally, you have a non-manager who can be a reference for you)?

      If these are the only two jobs you’ve ever had, that can be a challenge. Otherwise, it could work to have a current co-worker (non-manager) be a reference, your previous employer be a bad reference (or no reference), and then the employer before that (definitely a manager) be your third reference.

    4. Joanna*

      I’ve been in this situation and it is indeed really hard. It’s not ideal, but can you use a staff member you worked closely with but wasn’t a manager as your reference? Is there any people who’d remember you from jobs before this one?

    5. Miss Displaced*

      Is there anyone else there you can use? Unfortunately if the company was small they may not have an HR person, but sometimes you can circumvent that getting an office admin to only give the standard “Yes they worked here from X time to X time, we can confirm that.”

  125. A confused person*

    I quit my job without another one lined up (it had to be done, I couldn’t get screamed at again without snapping) and I keep thinking of new things I don’t quite know how to handle. I *should* be able to get a new one in July or August (in between I’m traveling but I have leads with former coworkers now at new companies) but there’s no guarantees. I’m suddenly wondering if I have to buy exchange insurance now that my job status is changing, qualifying event, or I can wait and see if I get a new gig in the three months after my notice is up and buy it if nothing looks like it will pan out? I have been tentatively told I have a contract but it’s not official yet and I want to be prepared to know what to do. I can’t check on the website for it without actually applying to purchase :/ they didn’t expand Medicaid where I’m going and the exchange options are extremely expensive, from what friends who’ve had to go that way after layoffs have shared with me. Not as much as COBRA would be, though.

    Also, someone asked me the other day if I would be eligible for unemployment. It didn’t occur to me to look into, since I quit. I’m also moving to another state a few days after my notice is done, so I don’t know if it’s even worth investigating in the state I’m already in. I know it will be laborious to get an answer from my state itself so I’m not sure if I want to bother unless there’s reason to believe I might have something there. I’m currently in Washington.

    1. Megs*

      The general rule is that you are only eligible for unemployment if you were not at fault for your unemployment, which usually rules out quits. There are often exceptions for “constructive firing” when a working environment is so bad they essentially force you to quit, but those tend to be narrow exceptions and it’d be likely you’d be challenged if you list that on an application. In any case, good luck!

    2. sparklealways*

      I was in a similar situation a couple years ago and there is a weird workaround to get a grace period that extends about three months. I can’t remember all the specifics, but I hope some of this is helpful for you to do additional research.

      1. Your employer has a certain amount of time to notify you about your benefits expiring and asking you if you want COBRA.
      2. When you receive this notification, you have a certain amount of time to respond saying whether or not you want COBRA.
      3. After responding “yes”, you have a certain amount of time to pay for COBRA.

      At this point, if you don’t pay for COBRA and you said you want it, your insurance just falls off, but they won’t bill you for payment. You will have to research the exact amount of time each of these things takes and what the deadlines are, but just take as long as you can to respond to the COBRA letter and figure out the appropriate time you need to pay in case you don’t have a job by then.

  126. Anon13*

    I made a comment on the open thread a few weeks ago about applying to grad school for my MLIS and references. I just wanted to provide a quick (tangentially related) update: I start volunteering with our local library’s bookmobile next week! I’m really excited to begin.

  127. OG Anonsie*

    Re: the FMLA discussion earlier this week, I wanted to give a recent example of how you have to finangle time away when you have a chronic illness.

    So I have a list of things that had to absolutely be done before the end of this week. It’s a lot of stuff. But, it’s totally doable, so I’m not concerned.

    Wednesday, however, someone else was late on something that caused a cascade of delays during which I couldn’t proceed on many things and had to do a lot of frantic workarounds on others. I ended up being at work 11 hours that day.

    Here is the dilemma I faced: I could have either written off Wednesday at my usual time (and made a bunch of people very very angry), or I could push through it knowing that Thursday I would be exhausted and much less productive than I needed to be and then Friday would also be less productive than usual because I would have to have a procedure this morning that was going to leave me groggy the rest of the day. That plan puts me at MORE risk of not meeting my deadlines, but I can’t make people understand that. So I had to push through Wednesday and sure enough Thursday my focus was so bad I didn’t get nearly as much done as I needed to, especially considering a had an unexpected backlog from Thursday, and now I am indeed groggy after my procedure this morning and it’s an extremely frustrating struggle trying to get through what I need with such poor focus and some distracting symptoms flaring from the fatigue. I’m going to be here hours longer than I should be (and I’m still at risk of missing a deadline). Everything would have been better if I had left on time Wednesday, but no one would have believed it (and I would have had to go into stupid levels of detail to even explain why), so here I am in a much worse situation.

    Folks! People with chronic illnesses and disabilities know what we need to manage them to keep performing! Trust us!! Gaahh

    Side note: I’m the Anonsie of the last few years but I notice someone else has started posting as Anonsie so I am claiming the right to be the OG Anonsie starting now B)

    1. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

      OG Anonsie! I love it. I was posting as Laura and then we got another one (story of my life!) and I could not think of anything clever and my iPad auto fills the name now and, well, here we are :)

      1. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

        Just to be clear, *I* am the Laura who needs to change her name and my auto fill is a daily reminder of this :)

    2. JaneB*

      Empathy!

      Having a similar problem myself right now, I’m 80% (so typically work 4 days a week) but had a really big rush on a couple of weeks ago; two weeks ago I pushed through and did 6 days back to back, last week I had to travel for work (and got criticised for not socialising in the eevening with the rest of the team – no way, I was already running on empty and a good night’s sleep requires I actually spend an hour or two alone, NOT thinking about work stuff, before I go to bed, and there isn’t TIME on a work trip to socialise and relax/do my necessary evening stuff and get enough hours of sleep, and I’m not risking the consequences) and now have to work on the weekend (at home at least!) to get urgent stuff done for Monday, and then I PLANNED to take three days off this week in lieu of the ones I’ve ‘lost’ (i.e. from two weeks ago, last week AND this week) and to give my health a chance to stabilise, but now my boss is all “but you work 4 days a week! You have to do your four days THIS week!” even though I bent my own very well founded rules to deal with problems not of my making.

      I need to pace myself, and that sometimes means stopping when I appear to be absolutely fine, and also means that sometimes when I say “I can’t do X, I’ll get sick” I’m NOT being a pessimist, I’m being HONEST.

      Gah!

      So all I can offer is empathy. Hope someone else comes along and offers something more useful!

  128. Grad Student*

    Strange dilemma and no idea about the norms in a situation like this.

    First job out of university lasted a year. The agreement from the outset was that I would stay for about that long as I was in the process of applying to graduate programs out of town but wanted a year of work for a) skills and experience and b) saving money for the move.

    My chosen career path is one that requires a specific graduate degree, so I am committed to attending graduate school, but do not intend to go into debt over it (as it is a path that is not famous for being highly-paid).

    After a frustrating year of being accepted into my programs of choice but unsuccessful in establishing the sort of funding/assistantship that would allow me to attend full-time, I was unexpectedly given an offer from a previous employer. I had a fantastic relationship with that employer (only left because they could not offer full-time, but a position finally opened up) and the salary was nearly 50% more than I was making. In addition, it was the end of that one-year period in which we had already established I’d be moving on. So I accepted the offer, deciding to stay locally for a few more years and take advantage of the salary increase to set up a savings account allowing me to pay for grad school.

    I was accepted into an evening graduate program that allowed me to work full-time, and with my current salary I can afford two classes per semester. Everything is awesome.

    I just received an offer for a full scholarship program that will completely waive my tuition. The catch? It’s a full-time program with an accelerated schedule that will have me graduating in a calendar year, along with a required employment component with one of the program’s partners. Taking the offer would save me $20,000 and quite a few years, as well as adding valuable career-specific experience. I earnestly want to accept, but also fear how it will look to leave a second employer out of college just shy of a year after accepting the offer, especially since they hired me assuming I’d stick around. Is it reasonable to think the offer is worth it, or are these naive grad student rose-colored glasses preventing me from seeing a potential career history mistake?

    1. Laura (Needs To Change Her Name)*

      I don’t know your field but in mine (a social science) that would be worth it.

  129. Caller Collar*

    This is late, but maybe I’ll get some responses!

    This week, I got a call from the hiring manager at the government job I applied for last year but didn’t get. One of her team is leaving soon, and she thought I would be a good fit. She wanted to know I if I was interested and still on the market, and I said yes. It’s exciting, as this job is really a great fit for me. She wants to talk informally (as the job is not even posted yet), but I’m not sure what to expect.

    Has anyone done this before? Should I treat it like an interview, or be less formal? Thanks!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I mean it may be less formal (in terms of dress and conversation type), but I would definitely treat it like an interview, since it might lead to an actual job.

    2. Joanna*

      While it might be a less structured conversation, err on the side of normal interview norms (like dressing well and being careful to be on time) just in case it is actually more serious than they are letting on.

      1. Caller Collar*

        Thank you! I was thinking something along those lines. Good to know I’m headed in the right direction.

  130. hazelnut*

    Hey, all. Might be too late to get in here, but I figured I’d try. Would love to get your take on two jobs.

    Job #1: current gig. A unicorn job in many ways. Usually 40-45 hours a week. Cool people, great benefits, and interesting work. Opportunity to work from home on occasion. Good pay. Nice boss. No direct reports. Senior-level position, but might take awhile to advance.

    Was recently recruited for:

    Job #2: two levels up in title from Job #1. 6 direct reports. Director title, senior management team. Seems more high-stress with more face time and longer hours than Job #1. Larger firm with more locations.

    Pay for Job #2 caps out at only $20K more than Job #1. But the responsibility seems like it should be way more. However, I know I am paid very well for Job #1.

    Thoughts? What do you think is a reasonable difference in compensation between such different jobs?

    1. fposte*

      Can’t say without knowing the jobs and the field, but your description sounds like you don’t feel much enthusiasm for job #2. Would you be interested in it if they hadn’t come to you?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      What’s your goal?

      If your goal is to have a good job with decent pay, I’d stay at Job #1.

      If you think getting more pay (but with a cap) is worth higher stress and longer hours, take Job #2.

      Also, you say there’s a cap on the salary. Will Job #2 long term give you a path to other jobs that Job #1 wouldn’t?

    3. Joanna*

      It really depends on the business. How the descriptors in level 2 would look would vary a lot between organisations.

      It also depends a lot on your personality and interests. If you work well under pressure and enjoy managing people, 20k might be acceptable. If you really hate those things it might not be a good idea even for an extra 40k.

  131. Vera*

    Ahhh…. I hope people are still reading. I really really need advice today.

    I have been at my new job for about a year and I’ve been kicking butt. The project I am responsible for is a high-visibility project that was doing not so great before I came on board and I’ve not only turned it around but added significant additional value as well. The internal customers I serve sing my praises – which is AWESOME.

    My coworkers that do what I do are struggling with their projects. One co-worker in particular, Eric, works on many projects, and one of them is a similar yet different project than mine. So, this project is also decently high-visibility. Eric is probably the worst off when it comes to projects – they are all way behind. Eric and I’s projects are similar enough that we meet weekly to catch up, trade ideas, and see if we can help each other. Lately I’ve been helping him out where I can. Also, because the projects are so similar, internal customers sometimes reach out to me thinking I manage his project too, so I hear a lot about the project. I also hear a lot from internal customers…they often complain to me about him. I try to stay neutral and polite and move on from the topic as quickly as possible.

    My boss has advised me that due to performance issues, she plans to move this similar project to my responsibility. She plans to tell Eric on Monday that this is happening and has asked I set up a meeting with him, after their meeting on Monday, to discuss how to transition this project to my responsibility permanently. My boss also plans to send an announcement, probably end of day Monday, to all internal teams advising them of the change.

    HELP:
    1) This would be a real blow to anyone. Sending a calendar invite to him after a meeting like that seems so cold. How do I approach this ? Any thoughts on introductory words? My boss has advised I focus the conversation on being helpful and lightening his workload. But… it seems like he’ll see right through that. If it matters, I outrank Eric but we both report into the same boss.
    2) Eric is in the middle of a HUGE milestone for his project, and the success of his project affects my bonus (it’s complicated). Normally I would take the transition over several weeks but this is a NOW NOW NOW, work the nights and weekends scenario. I have the capability and resources to take it over immediately, but I don’t even know how to approach this with Eric. “Give me everything right now” seems harsh… any thoughts on how to balance kindness with urgency?
    3) How do I respond to the internal customers that will likely have a reaction of “HORRAY!” ?? Especially if they come to me and say what a relief it is that I’ll be taking over. Is the script, “I’m happy to help the team”? “I’m excited for the new challenge/opportunity” ?

      1. Vera*

        My boss is meeting with him directly on Monday morning and asked me to plan to meet with him 1:1 Monday afternoon. Should I ask her to join that meeting?

        1. Jillociraptor*

          No, I think it would be good to let Eric have some decompression time. If I understand what Diluted_TortoiseShell is saying, it would be ideal for your boss to say “I’m going to set up a time for you to meet with Vera to transition the project this afternoon.” so it’s not on YOU to reach out.

    2. Laura*

      Your boss should be handling all aspects of this transition. Can you tell your boss that you’re not comfortable having this conversation with Erik, or at least ask the boss to facilitate the meeting with him?

    3. Chaordic One*

      Well, at least you seem sensitive to Eric and the situation. Many, if not most people, would probably not be. I worry about how well your boss will facilitate this, and there’s only so much that your boss can do. Getting back to you…

      I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds like Eric is behind in his many projects because he has too many of them and isn’t really given the chance to focus on just a few of them and shine. Moving the high-profile project to you, since you seem to be doing so well, sounds logical. Still, it will sting to have the project taken away right now.

      When you get your chance to meet with Eric you can say that his workload really is too high and that he’ll be better able to focus on his other projects, although, even if true, it might come off as being patronizing.

      When you respond to internal customers you can point out that Eric did the groundwork and had a lot of other things on his plate as well.

      In dealing with both Eric and with your internal customers, try to make it not so much about Eric, as about him having too high a workload and it not being reasonable for him to able to do everything that was on his plate.

        1. Chaordic One*

          One last thing. I know this sounds corny, and it is not something that you need to think about right now in your dealings with Eric.

          When the project is finally completed, if you receive compliments on it, it would very gracious for you to say something along the lines of, “The project was successful because of a lot of different people here at Experimental Teapots, Ltd. Eric started this project and gave me a good foundation to build upon.”

    4. Ultraviolet*

      I actually think it makes perfect sense that your boss would tell Eric about this in a 1:1 and then have you and Eric meet soon afterward to discuss the transition. I’d be interested to hear anyone who thinks this is a bad idea elaborate on it some more!

      1) If I were Eric I would feel super bad, but I wouldn’t want you to acknowledge it at all. I recommend avoiding any types of condolences and just being really straightforward about getting information from him on the new project. Don’t even touch on why the transition is happening. So when you email him to set up the meeting, you could say something like, “I hear from Boss that the XYZ project is being transitioned to my responsibility . Can we meet to discuss the details?” And when you meet him, I’d dive right in with “Let’s discuss the timeline for this transition” or similar. Speaking of which…

      2) Ideally your boss would clarify to both of you how soon the transition needs to be completed. Can you check in with them sometime before your meeting with Eric that your plan is to get everything completely transitioned to you within 1-2 days and confirm that that’s about what they had in mind with respect to both your time and Eric’s? And when you meet with Eric, I’d briefly explain why you want to get the transition done quickly (not because of your bonus per se, but because presumably because that’s how it best fits in with your other project or your schedule for the next few weeks). That’s all it would really take to avoid being harsh I think.

      3) “I’m excited for the new challenge/opportunity” is fine.

      Good luck!

      1. Vera*

        Thank you for all the helpful advice! This is definitely a situation of working within given boundaries, since I can’t change how my boss has already decided how to approach this. I appreciate your feedback.

  132. DancingTemp*

    I’m struggling as to what to do with my current work situation. I’m two months into a long-term temp assignment and I hate it. It’s in an industry that I have no knowledge or interest in, and I’m working for the legal department (once again no experience or interest, and the agency knew this). When my temp agency sent my resume along, the company hired me sight unseen. No interview whatsoever. My first day, I was so upset because I had no idea what my boss wanted me to do. I’ve never felt like such a failure. Unfortunately, things have not gotten better for me. My boss is not very engaging and when she tries to explain things I’m left feeling even more confused. I don’t know if I’m utilizing the process to the best of my abilities. I’d rather spend my time working on my dance admin work. I don’t mesh well with the office culture at all.

    I have informed a recruiter from another agency that I’m not happy there and that I want to look for another position. However, I feel embarrassed to go to my initial temp agency to say that this assignment is not working for me, especially as they’ve given me lots of good long term work. I certainly do not want to quit without having something lined up. I guess I’m trying to figure out what to do as I don’t want to burn bridges. Should I go to the agency that got me this job and tell them that this position is not working for me?

    1. Joanna*

      Being thrown into a temp contract you didn’t interview for and don’t know much about can be really hard. I know you’ve said you don’t mesh with the office culture, but is there anyone there who might be able to help you with your struggles with the process? Some people enjoy showing what they know and being seen as knowledgeable. Make the most of these people.

      Get your agency involved, but perhaps don’t make your first approach to your agency be telling them that you want to quit as the job may be salvageable. It’s in their best interests to have the role work out for you so that they’re not having to put more resources into finding you a new role or having you not working. That being the case, they might be willing to help you negotiate with the employer for more training or to get better feedback. Don’t be embarrassed about getting their help. In my experience it’s not at all uncommon for temps to have trouble settling into new assignments.

    2. zd*

      Sweetie, talk to your agency!!! You should not be embarrassed at all, you need to flip your perspective on this.
      “They’ve given me lots of good long term work.” the flip side of this is that you have made them a lot of money!

      You have done good long term work FOR them, your previous employers obviously thought you were great, because they would have kicked you to the curb for a replacement if they didn’t, and the agency makes a profit off of your work. You need to think of this as a relationship with the agency, they are finding you work, you are making them a lot of money. Every once in a while, you are allowed to be the one to ask for their help. Contact your recruiter and tell them this doesn’t feel like a good fit, explain what some of the concerns are. And they might have suggestions. If they don’t have any, ask if it’s possible for you to switch to another assignment. Make it clear you can be patient for a few weeks, because it might take time to find you another spot, and a replacement for this one. But that is one of the [only] upsides to being a temp, you also get to evaluate the job and decide it’s not right for you, you have made no commitments to stay and you have no obligation to stay for a certain length of time. Stick up for yourself!!

    3. Miss Displaced*

      Well, if ever there was a time to go back and say “I’d like to help this company, but I don’t feel I have the right background/qualifications/experience for this role to do so.” this is it.
      Explain your concerns and what you have tried to do thus far to learn and make it work and be productive, but admitting that you may be in over your head working in a legal department is nothing to be ashamed of. (This is usually VERY specialized work!)
      You can also frame this as “I would like to be considered for jobs that involve A,B and C that are more aligned to my experience and career interests.”

  133. Bumble*

    Mind games. Why do people play them? Why at work? Is there something wrong with me that I don’t play them? I don’t think like that. I want to work. I want to help others, not put them down just for kicks.

    1. Panda Bandit*

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with you wanting to do your work and help others and not indulge in childish/abusive games. You are professional and kind-hearted. Mind games come from terrible, messed-up people and it’s a good idea to stay far away from them. Change jobs if you have to.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Some folks play mind games because they sincerely believe if they were straightforward they would not get what they want.

      Some people play mind games because it gives them a sense of control. The covert message here is that they believe things are out of control, so they have a high need to rope things in.

      And from what I am seeing there are folks who believe there is no other way.They believe that everyone is playing mind games with everyone.

      You may have to move to a job where the people want to work.

  134. Maiasaura*

    How do you steel yourself to give notice when you know that it’s going to negatively affect colleagues you really like and respect? I’m a part-timer backing up a shop that’s currently overwhelmed, and my work life balance is unmanageable. I’m miserable and I feel like I never catch up, and my personal life and my consulting business are suffering. My consulting business is tiny but enormously enjoyable, and working less helps me support my partner in their much more lucrative career. I just keep thinking, though, about how much worse things will be for my coworkers if I quit and my work falls to them. I tried to quit a couple years ago, but I got talked into staying on part time, so I know that this time I need to make a clean break or I’ll just get sucked back in. How have other folks dealt with feeling like this? I’d love some advice!

    1. Graciosa*

      Ensuring that the business is properly staffed is Not Your Job.

      You are not responsible for protecting either the business or your coworkers.

      Keep telling yourself that, and resist any attempts to make you feel guilty for not enslaving yourself to the business (are you supposed to stay forever?).

      If you can do so without too much hardship and really want to make an extra effort, you might consider giving three weeks notice rather than two. If you do this, make a bit of a fuss over it, telling people that you know two is the norm but you wanted to do everything you possibly could to make the transition as easy as possible.

      The subtext here is that the extra week is all you can do, and there is no point in asking for more. If you’re pressed, just keep saying that unfortunately, Date has to be your last day.

      If you *really* have a problem sticking up for yourself (fix that if you do, by the way), then make some sort of commitment starting immediately after your declared last day that would not allow you to continue working. Schedule an extended trip out of town (vacation, visit relatives, take a seminar) or commit to volunteering for a cause you can’t bear to disappoint or declare that your partner needs you for something critical that cannot be rescheduled – anything you have to do to make it clear that you will not be available after Date.

      I have to tell you that this really shouldn’t be necessary – professionals can resign from a position without allowing themselves to be talked into staying by someone trying to play on a sense of guilt which is *entirely* misplaced.

      Giving notice would allow the business to hire a replacement (or at least get the process started to minimize the amount of time the business will be additionally understaffed) but whether the business does this or not has nothing to do with you. You have absolutely no obligation to cover for the deficiencies of management, and no true friend would ever ask this of you.

      It is Not Your Job. Believe that.

      Best wishes.

    2. Joanna*

      I agree with what Graciosa has already said about it not being your fault that the business is already understaffed. The managers of the business have a responsibility to ensure the business is properly staffed. You shouldn’t harm yourself to mitigate against them being failures at that.

      That said, it’s still a good thing to try being considerate of your co-workers as you leave. A helpful thing you can do is to make sure that all your physical and digital files are in order so that they can find stuff once you’re gone. Also make sure you’re careful to turn in any keys or stuff that belongs to the business. You may also need to pass on any passwords to business applications/accounts that only you know.

      Another thing to be mindful of is to keep working as hard as you can until you finish. It’s maddening having people who are leaving start doing less work and/or worse quality work in their last weeks making the strain of them leaving so much worse.

    3. Seriously Bummed*

      I just recently had a conversation with one of my colleagues that has given notice. It certainly isn’t an ideal time for the company to have her leave, but she knew it was best for her personally to leave at this time. She noted that she felt some guilt for those she’s leaving behind, but also acknowledged that everyone needs to make their own choices. All employees have the option to stay or to look for something different.

      I agree with the comments above – you want to conduct your departure in a professional manner by providing appropriate notice and leaving your work in the best possible place when you leave. Turnover is an inevitable component of any business and it is management’s responsibility to ensure they have the staff needed and to treat the staff in a way that minimizes turnover.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t save them from themselves. You stayed an extra couple of years and you still couldn’t save them from themselves.
      Meanwhile they are soaking you for all they can get out of you.

      Guilt is not a reason to make a bad decision. It’s a bad decision to remain at this place. Just because you have guilt does not mean you have to continue with this place. If you can’t shake the guilt off, then decide to move ahead in spite of feeling guilty. Express regret to those you care about and let the rest go.

  135. KarenD*

    Arrgghh … not sure if anyone is still looking at this today but I just had a situation… it may be too late for advice but I’d love some feedback.

    I’m Facebook friends with “Ed,” a manager at another company whom I like and respect a great deal. I’ve never worked directly with him, but he’s a real innovator in our field and generous with sharing ideas and strategies, plus great fun to do shots with and swap stories. When I logged on to FB just now, I had a message waiting from Ed about a former colleague, “Stephanie,” who’s being considered for a position on Ed’s team.

    I … have very little that’s good to say. Stephanie’s work on my team was adequate but not stellar. She was a complainer and prone to cut corners. On an interpersonal level I often found her unpleasant to deal with – she was tetchy and condescending – and I suspect she would have a problem working with Ed in particular because she has problems with a class of people to which Ed belongs.

    I’ve been a reference for Stephanie in the past, but that was in a different context where I felt comfortable giving a generally positive review (it was work for which I think she would have been better suited). But working with someone of Ed’s caliber on a job she wasn’t good at? Couldn’t do it.

    Unfortunately, on FB you don’t always get time to think up a perfectly equivocal answer. I responded to Ed with some general pleasantries and whoops, he was online and messaged me right back! So I just tried to think of a few good things to say … Stephanie picked up these specific teapot design skills quickly even though she came from a background in teapot production … She really seemed to enjoy designing Chinese-style teapots and was especially good at blue ones … That kind of thing. I’m hoping my failure to say something like “Oh, Stephanie is great and you should really consider her!” spoke for itself.

    Should I have just laid my cards on the table and said “don’t go there”? Should I do that now? Or just leave it alone? If it helps, Ed did say he had other good candidates. And he’s going to be looking at examples of Stephanie’s work that demonstrate her general skill level.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Lay your cards on the table. I don’t think most people would read between the lines with this, and he may think you’ve now recommended her. Contact him and be candid — he’s clearly relying on your opinion!

      1. KarenD*

        Thanks Allison.

        The things I praised her for were not core competencies for our job, but yeah, I should have been direct. So I have messaged Ed, apologized for the weasel words and said very simply that based on our time working together, I couldn’t give Stephanie a recommendation.

        1. Miss Displaced*

          Perhaps you could say that knowing both his (Ed’s) and Stephanie’s personalities and work styles, you don’t think they would “mesh” very well together, even though you found Stephanie’s work on X, Y, and Z to be ok, but this may not up to Ed’s standards.
          And sometimes it really is just all about that, the “fit” of the person.

  136. Mango*

    I need some advice. I started a manager role a little while ago at a company. I have to share management of a team with my coworker, who has been with the company for a decade. It became slowly apparent to me that my coworker is sexist. I started noticing how he holds one of the company directors in contempt and his main gripe is that she shouldn’t have her position because he feels she doesn’t have enough experience in the area we work in. He constantly references that she’s “ambitious” and that she rose through the ranks. But after working there, it’s clear to me that this director is really on point and very good at her job, so his gripes became suspect. Even more, this male colleague is a total mess–he’s totally disorganized, constantly misses meetings, and his staff complain about his accessibility. I also learned that he was supposed to work with another female manager but she said she doesn’t want to work with him anymore because of his attitude and disorganization (but not specifically pointing out his sexist behavior).

    Well, I enter the picture and when I started working there, he made a point to be superficially nice, but his actions proved otherwise. For example, he never had time to meet with me to discuss how we’d collaborate–I always had to “catch him as he was walking” or in his office to discuss anything. A few months later, he got aggressive with me in what started out as a regular conversation but then he disagreed with my point of view and started raising his voice. Ever since then, I’ve steered clear of him. It was weird because I felt like he was trying to create drama (like have me go run to the bosses and complain about him) and I didn’t bring up the issue with my boss because the argument itself was extremely petty. The powers that be already know he doesn;t play well in the sand box.

    Well fast forward and recently, he got aggressive with me again in a meeting–this time in front of two other people. He called me a baby (with a raised voice). He then stated he’d been apprising management of me and how he’s been trying to work with me these past few weeks (since the argument) and I’ve been cold towards him (he left out the part about why of course) and that I am not a team player. I left and brought it up to management and they said the issue is he is territorial and he is threatened by me. Okay. He gave me a fake apology (I say fake because it read as “sorry but just so you know i was right” and it’s apparent it’s more about him documenting his version in writing about how he’s trying to be a team player and I am the problem). Nothing has happened since then–everyone is just carrying on as normal; supposedly management is figuring out what to do but I get the feeling they aren’t going to “do” anything. ANYWAY…all of that to ask…I feel conflicted—I don’t want to work with him anymore and feel like I shouldn’t have to play nice just to make other people feel comfortable so they cab carry on because I AM UNCOMFORTABLE. But I also am not sure this is a battle worthy of fighting by asking not to work with him–should I give it another shot and see how that goes? What would you guys do?

    1. ASJ*

      Honestly, IANAM (I am not a manager) but it sounds like he’s trying to gather the ammunition to get you fired – or at least get you bumped from your co-management position by making you look like the problem child. And your spineless managers aren’t helping, since it sounds like they’re patting you both on the head and hoping that the issue resolves itself.

      My advice: search for a new job. Things with this dude are not going to get better.

      In the meantime, DOCUMENT. Put things in writing whenever you can – if you have to catch him in the hall, send a follow-up email saying “Just to reaffirm what we discussed in the hall, we’re implementing X and Y and leaving Z behind”.

      Frankly, at this point I’m inclined t othink that asking not to work with him will reflect badly more on you than on him. Which is shitty. But I’d recommend being professional and polite without being nice. There was an excellent Miss Manners article that Alison quoted once – I will post the link right away so this doesn’t get caught in the filter – that was about being cool while also being polite, so he has nothing to complain about.

      Also, since I can’t stress it enough, job search. And you have my apologies for having to work with such a manchild.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would go to the female manager who said she did not want to work with him and ask her advice. It seems like your answer could be all you have to do is say, “I don’t want to work with him any more.”

      If this person is no longer with the company, then maybe just go ahead and tell the boss that you do not want to work with him any more.
      Or maybe you can do a middle of the road thing. “Look, Boss, I am kind of out of ideas to try in terms of getting along with Dude. I don’t know how much longer I can do this. Do we have an idea of time frame for what is going to happen next? If he blows up again, do I come tell you? I am not sure how to proceed here.”

    3. KarenD*

      How sold are you on staying at this company?

      I had a situation like this — nasty, aggressive, sexist co-worker and lily-livered management, but otherwise a generally good situation (loved my other co-workers, loved the work, the management was great in so many other ways).

      I handled it by asking for a meeting with management, making it as formal as I could, and just said “This work relationship is not working out, here’s why and why and why, and here’s some documentation.” I tried very hard to keep the actual meeting itself brief, though I underscored how very, very serious the problem was. I stayed very factual, gave them thorough backup, and made a recommendation (swap Nastyman to a different assignment that actually needed doing, working with an almost all-male team. I was very lucky in that the vacancy – on paper a slight step down – was actually viewed as a plum. and the person I proposed to pull onto my team actually wanted that pretty badly).

      Giving them a custom-made solution made all the difference, even though I can see that I was “getting above myself” in a major way. But management jumped on it – they wanted everyone to be happy but didn’t want to make tough decisions. And it did work out well for pretty much everyone involved … one of Nastyman’s new team members was vocally unhappy, but things settled down pretty quickly. And my new team member became a lifelong friend.

      All that was very specific to my situation, but …. I heard a lot of the same elements in your post, so thought hey, I’d throw it out there. Good luck!

    4. Mango*

      Thanks for your comments. Management personally told me he’s been an issue and is not doing well in the job. They spoke to him afterwards. My guess is he did not react well and probably pulled out his “documentation” to make me look like the problem child. Then he sent me his apology after they spoke with him but honestly, it’s more like “I’m only doing this to appear as the nice guy but just for the record I was right”. However, the same management who told me they know the issue is not me—they are the ones who promoted him and they like him as a person. So I don’t know if they story is he was promoted and they now recognize he’s a fraud (or whatever) OR that they promoted him in spite of his disorganization and other issues and will stand by him regardless but talk the talk privately to me that he’s a problem.

  137. Handle Upset*

    What should I do if manager gets upset that I let her manager see her errors or how her work is actually done? I worked in a job where I have two managers (Manager A and Manager B). Manager A is also Manager B’s manager. I need to let Manager A review modifications I made to files before they can be filed. Some of the modifications contains files that belong to Manager B’s organization segment. The modification documents will show some details of how Manager B manages her segments data. I am afraid that Manager A might not agree with Manager B’s way of doing things and it might cause Manager A to tell Manager B, and Manager B might be upset that I showed Manager A.

    Manager A and Manager B sometimes has disagreements on things. A few times I told Manager B about Manager A’s recommendations and Manager B did not agree with them and told me to dismiss his suggestions.

    I am in position where I am afraid of communicating with my managers about their differing opinions because everyone in my workplace seemed to enjoy their autonomy of doing things and everyone will definitely would not like that to be changed. I also liked Manager A’s method of reviewing the modifications because, as he had told me, it is a procedure the auditors highly recommend we follow.

    I have an understanding of how Manager B’s segments are managed and I do not think her way of managing it is wrong. I can explain to Manager A why the segments are ran in this way. But I hate the thought that there is a possibility Manager A might confront either me or Manager B about the segment details.

    1. KarenD*

      All this weekend’s posts seem to be relevant to my experience :) I have exactly the same setup – and actually, the same slight-to-major disagreements in how things are handled between my “A” and “B.”

      Here’s how I handle it. When it is minor mistakes/inadvertent violations of clear established policy, I cover Manager B’s butt and make the needed fixes. (It helps that Manager B is maybe the best I’ve ever worked for. He’s worth protecting.) They almost always pass without comment from either party.

      But when it is serious disagreements on significant ways of doing things? I don’t get involved in those fights. If I think there’s a misunderstanding, I bring it up to Manager B and ask if he wants changes, but if I know he’s fully aware of what he’s doing … well, he’s a big boy and will have to fight that battle himself, something he is fully capable of doing. So I pass through his work without change or comment.

      Fortunately, Manager A, for all her flaws (she’s not my favorite) is never going to go after me for something like this. If I say “Talk to Manager B,” that’s the end of it.

      1. KarenD*

        Even after I reposted this (to move it) I realized I didn’t address something I meant to address.

        You say “I am in position where I am afraid of communicating with my managers about their differing opinions because everyone in my workplace seemed to enjoy their autonomy of doing things and everyone will definitely would not like that to be changed.”

        You don’t need to be scared about this, and being scared will actually mess you up. Your managers’ decisions and conflicts between the two of them are not your fault, and not your responsibility to fix. But if you project an attitude that you somehow do take responsibility for part of this conflict, you’re increasing the likelihood that some of the blame for the drama will be shifted onto you.

        I had to gulp and say to myself “Hey this ain’t me” a few times before I learned to mentally shrug the conflict off. Now if one of them comes to me all fired up, I just say “Go duke it out with your mortal enemy” in a cheerful way and go back to my work. (They are not actually mortal enemies by the way, just equally pigheaded. A is more sneaky while B is more stubborn.)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It’s up to Manager A to manage her people. This means that A has to manage B.

      You have the set up for a perfect storm. This is how toxic work places are created. Everyone wants to do things their own way, and no one wants to deal with angry people.

      Don’t cover for people. Seriously, do not cover for them. You will only have to cover for them more and more. Go to B and tell her that you have to pass her work to A. Tell B this is the process and she can expect that you routinely pass her work to A.

      If B has kittens about this news, then shrug and say, “I have to report to the both of you. There is nothing I can do about this. You will have to talk with A directly.”

      Should the problem continue on then go to A and let her know that B is telling you not to give her work to A (or whatever B is saying) and ask A how she wants you to handle this.

      I don’t know anything about your workflows but it might make sense that B give her work directly to A and skip you. Then after A reviews it, she gives it to you to finish up. It could be that A might have other solutions to the situation, also.

      My punchline is that if you continue covering for B and trying to keep A and B from fighting with each other, then you will be looking for a new job soon. This is because your work place has grown too toxic to deal with. A is the boss, it’s her call how the work should be done. Do not randomly decide that A’s method is good but you see where B has merit with what she is saying– none of this is your call. Don’t get into THEIR disagreements. Encourage both of them to talk to each other and reach a conclusion on how to handle things. Your motivation for doing this is to protect your sanity and protect your job.

      Just my opinion, but I think B has a lot of growing up to do.

  138. Job Gone Bad Blues*

    I’m kind of late to this, but I feel I wanted to post given some comments on the site about job hopping, why people job hop and and when you should (or shouldn’t) job hop. We all know by now it can be fine to hop when you have a bad or abusive boss, or if the company is failing, but what if that’s not the case exactly? What if your reason is more akin to a good job going bad? After doing some research, I’ve found 5 general reasons why a good job can go bad.

    1. You were missing one of the five aspects of great work.
    [pay, agreeable work, meaningfulness, inspiration, competency, purpose]
    2. You were missing a key ingredient of your dream job.
    3. You found a “fly in the ointment” problem that spoiled the job.
    [values, co-workers, boss, stress, hours, travel, goals, leadership, etc.]
    4. Something about the job changed.
    5. The job you were hired to do is not the one you ended up with.

    Now, I’m not a fan of the “dream job” theory. It’s called WORK for a reason, and I have no illusions about that, but I do think you have to at least like the work you do on some level (and I do like what I do).

    But right now, after 2 years into a job I loved, I am dealing with reasons #4 and #5 with a dash of reason #3 (stress & hours). My company has gone through a lot of changes in the past year due to a sale and change in management, leadership, and reporting structures. It’s been quite chaotic, and the chaos does not seem to be easing. I’m trying to deal, and find solutions, but I can’t seem to do that when daily life has become just one long grind of basic tasks punctuated by reactionary crisis items and no goals other than survival. I no longer feel valued or that I have much input anymore, except that my value is I’m the one who gets things dumped on and expected to get them done (but now with much less autonomy to do so). Basically, this is not the same job and I’m not happy.

    I’m really trying to decide if I stick this out, or if it’s time to leave. If I try to leave, it’s a difficult thing to explain, as there isn’t any one particular reason but a host of many and a bad feeling about it all. I also don’t want to be seen as a person who gives up when the going gets tough, but staying and being unhappy wouldn’t likely be productive either, as the more unhappy you get, the more you tend to stagnate.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think that staying at the job 2 years plus takes you out of the running for “job hopper”.

      To me it sounds like you have lost your map here. You were on a journey but along the way your map disappeared and you cannot find it.

      One of the most expensive lessons I have had in life is “Do NOT allow yourself to flounder.” So applying that rule to this setting you have would mean either find your purpose for being there or move on.
      Your purpose could be something like you are adding experiences to your resume that look great. Or you have taken over X and now X is doing outstanding. Maybe you are meeting lots of people and those connects will help you as you go on with your career. Think about this and come up with a strong purpose.

      If you cannot find that strong purpose then start looking around at other jobs. If nothing else, looking at these jobs will give you a sense of whether you are off-base or if you actually should be looking around. (You know, it’s funny/odd. You start applying for jobs and you find yourself in conversation with others. They will let fly with some tidbit of info that you never would have learned any other way. These tidbits of info can be life changing. I learned that my then CEO had a bigger bar tab than one entire law firm. It was his own personal tab. This turned out to be the tip of a VERY large iceberg.)

      See, in addition to having lost your map, you also need new info, new inputs from NEW people. It looks to me like you have thoroughly covered that introspective thing- you have wracked your brain trying to figure this out. Time to go external and talk with people around you. Added bonus, talking with others is just a good life habit to cultivate.

      Back to job hopper. If you start searching now, you might hit the three year mark before you find something that is a move up. Your resume will look just fine.

    2. Cruciatus*

      I think you’re overthinking this. I don’t think you’re falling into the job hopper category at all. Two years is a decent amount of time. Maybe if the other jobs you’ve had have been extremely short it would be a problem, but otherwise I think you should at least start looking and if asked why you’re leaving just explain the nature of the job/company has changed and you’re looking for somewhere more stable/calmer, whatever. You don’t need to give all the details, just give a simple sentence or two. You are not under oath! You have permission to look for other jobs based on what you’ve said here!

  139. Joseph*

    Hi all! I am studying workplace bullying for school. I enjoy this site, and its commenters, and would greatly appreciate your input. Clicking on my name links to the survey. It shouldn’t take much of your time, and will help me greatly. Thanks so much!

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