open thread — July 1-2, 2016

by Alison Green on July 1, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. HWHR*

    My first open thread post!! I’m going to try a sounding board from y’all this week. My boss just recently went on a 3 month LOA leaving me alone in the department to run the day to day things and if anything comes up that over my head, I am to go to the VP and escalate from there. Basically, I am doing what I was hired to do (she was a consultant tasked with training me up into the position, but about 4 months ago they hired her to be my manager when she came to them with life circumstances requiring her to take a permanent job). Needless to say that didn’t make me very happy and my old box contacted me about a position that she has with her and she wants me to take it. I have agreed. My dilemma now is with my current boss taking a 3 month LOA, I’m feeling EXTREMELY guilty about turning in my notice. Will is reflect badly on me that a few weeks after she has left I resign from my position? (I understand business is business and if the roles were reversed they wouldn’t worry about me if they had to let me go, and this new opportunity it a great one which I would be very stupid to say no to).

    1. legalchef*

      I don’t think so. I would try to give as much notice as possible and also make it clear that you understand that it is poor timing and that you will do everything possible that you to make the transition smoother (handbooks/guides, training your replacement, etc).

    2. SophieChotek*

      Just my two cents…

      Part of running a business/organization is the understanding that sometimes people give notice. You cannot just wait for the “right” time, because generally there never is a “right” time.

      The timing may be unfortunate, but give a last day (stick to it), do what you can to help transition them, but if you got a good offer that would make you happier, then that is important.

      I might try to separate that your boss (getting a manager position/permanent job) out from the rest of this, especially if they ask you about “why” you are leaving. I would just stick to that you got a great offer, more in line with your skills/overall goals, but you will do what you can in X amount of time to ease transition.

      (And negotiate references/if they want to do extra work, because desperate, already have any idea about how you want to approach that issue — i.e. as a consultant, etc.)

      1. designbot*

        But they hired someone else to do the job they originally hired her to do–trying to separate that out just seems disingenuous. They made her redundant, and she responded completely reasonably by taking another offer when it came along. Unless the opportunity is just so amazing that it would’ve blown the original job out of the water anyway, there’s no denying the cause and effect there.

    3. addlady*

      Given that they didn’t give you the job they promised, I wouldn’t think you owed them anything except the usual courtesies.

      2. Christopher Tracy*

        Exactly. Their behavior wasn’t without fault here, so I’d say they brought this on themselves.

    4. MK*

      Usually, I balk at the “the employer would fire you in a second if it was in their best interest” argument for doing things that are maybe not entirely on the level. But in this case I don’t see why you should feel guilty, since you are resigning for another job, which is something that can happen at any time and is absolutely your right (the only time resigning is an issue is if you had made a commitment to stay X amount of time, and even then things change). Also, if I understand correctly, you were brought on to fill a position and then they gave the job to the independed contractor who was training you and kept you on as her employee; that’s basically a demotion and they had to have known you might leave.

      1. HWHR*

        You do understand correctly, that is exactly what happened, and the way they handled notifying me about it told me that they were extremely worried I would leave because of it.

        All of the responses have told me that I shouldn’t feel guilty and doing the best for me is exactly what I need to do. Everyone around me was saying it, but I guess I just wanted to make sure with some people that aren’t as close to the situation as my circle of support.

        Thank you!

    5. A. Nonymous*

      I’d give as much notice as possible, but work is not something we do as favors, you know? It’s not personal, just in your best interests and you should always look out for yourself when it’s reasonable.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Exactly – work is a business relationship. It is a transaction of labor and skills for money. You’re not doing anything wrong by giving notice now, and you are absolutely in no way obligated to take on emotional responsibility for the organization’s or your department’s well-being after your departure. Give your notice, and keep moving forward!

        1. Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

          +1. And believe me, the department/Company will be fine. Never make the mistake that it won’t. And as someone who was laid off after almost 20 years with the same company, I don’t believe that they felt any kind of guilt over it. They got along just fine without me. So give your notice, smile on your way out, and prepare for your new adventure.

          1. MK*

            I don’t see what guilt has to do with anything. Even the if they deeply regretted the decision and only did it because they saw no other way, a company will always survive an employee leaving. Barring pretty extraordinary circumstances, no one resignation is going to cause a collapse.

      2. INTP*

        Yep. And it seems like that attitude is exactly what got the company in the situation. (Handing out a job to a consultant because she suddenly needed health insurance or PTO or whatever – who then went on LOA, which is not exactly an unpredictable outcome when you give jobs to people because they’re in unstable personal circumstances.) OP certainly isn’t required to work as a favor to the company, to cover the favor they doled out at her own expense!

    6. INTP*

      There are some people who will always get mad at you for doing something that inconveniences them and will always view right and wrong from the perspective of how actions affects them. So I can’t say “You’re right, therefore you won’t ruffle any feathers.”

      However, I think what you’re doing is fine. On their part, they hired someone to do a job, and THEN hired a second person to do the same job above the first person’s head, specifically because the second person was in some sort of unstable life circumstance requiring health insurance or time off or whatever she needed out of a permanent job. The person who they totally changed a job on (you) leaving, as well as the person they hired to do her a favor in a difficult time needing to use the benefits of a permanent job (i.e. extended time off), were totally predictable outcomes. The company changed a job on you, the consultant asked for a permanent job and then quickly went on LOA, you are certainly not obligated to be the one to sacrifice for their actions by staying when you have a better opportunity!

    7. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      HWHR – I will give you a quote that we used to use in the IS/IT world =

      “Always take care of number one.”

      Meaning = yourself.

      Now, let’s assess this. They hired you to do a job, and led you to believe that you were moving into that slot.
      THEN , they decided to do a switcheroo and they passed you over.

      THEN, they’re asking you do to that job while your boss – the beneficiary of the passover dance – takes a 3 month LOA – for reasons that you haven’t described here, but that really could be irrelevant. If it’s a sabbatical to charge her batteries, then you’re being super-exploited.

      Take the new opportunity, if that’s what you want. Do you think they feel guilty over what they’ve done to YOU? Hell, no.

      The only courtesies I would give your current employer is a two-week notice (or whatever’s customary in your field) AND you will likely get a counter-offer discussion, and if you do, hear them out.

      If they start guilt-tripping you – walk away from the table. They may ask “did the passing over have anything to do with this?” , laugh, say “well, gee whiz or maybe it did!” and then hear them out more.

      Don’t feel guilty. And don’t let others “guilt you” into losing control of your career. Do what you WANT to do.

    8. Artemesia*

      Your company had no qualms about hiring her over you and then dumping her work on you when she left for a leave. They would have no qualms about letting you go if it benefited them. I am going to guess you are a woman because I have yet to hear a man worry about what will happen to the company if he takes a better job offer.

      It’s business, not personal. Take the job and do your best to help the company transition by doing a good job of documenting and if possible training the person they will have covering.

      Women are not more valued because they do the drudge work and put the company interests ahead of their own career advancement. They don’t get promoted because they do the work no one wants to do while their male peers distinguish themselves with ‘important work’ and get promoted. People don’t improve their professional reputations through self sacrifice; they improve them through accomplishment. Take this job without guilt and I hope the new one is fabulous.

  2. ND*

    Need some phrasing help, wonderful posters!

    I work very closely with someone in a very small office. We’re technically separate departments, but for the last six months she has functioned as my back up—someone to bounce ideas off of and proof documents. I technically report to her, though I wouldn’t say she is my boss. We collaborate, but I’m the primary for my department. The person with the ability to hire/fire me rests with her boss.

    This co-worker is…moody. Sometimes she’s wildly friendly and other times she’s openly frustrated, overwhelmed and snarky. Many days she’s begging me to never job hunt or desperately asking if I’m happy with my job. She bought me flowers last week as a thank you for my hard work. But on the days she’s unhappy, which are in the majority, she’s a huge downer for the whole office. I am tired of constantly trying to appease her, as it’s almost always generic frustration with other departments or her personal life. Half the time she apologizes later with the comment of, “Oh, I was just cranky about xyz. Sorry. I didn’t mean to take it out on you.”

    Today, she suddenly is acting very friendly with everyone in the office except for me. When we pass documents off between us, she is dismissive and abrupt. Curt or with a tone of barely restrained temper.

    I have not done anything to cause tension, to my knowledge, and her attitude is driving me nuts. Do I acknowledge it—and how do I phrase it if so? About a month ago I tried to casually calm things down with a: “Hey, is everything alright?” This was NOT the proper phrasing as she became even more angry and completely shut down, refusing to speak with me altogether.

    Do I go a step further the next time she’s working with me today and say, “You seem upset. Can we talk about what’s bothering you?” or should it be, “You seem upset. Have I done something you’d like to discuss?”

    Honestly, it’s making me angry enough that I worry I’ll start being very abrupt back—which obviously solves nothing. Should I go around her and bring the issue of her behavior up with her boss? It’s a known issue of the entire office, though I’m unsure if her boss thinks she’s like that to everyone or just her.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      You could try asking “Are you OK? You seem very quiet today”, as if you didn’t notice how she is with everyone else. Personally, I prefer to feign ignorance/innocence, and I’d probably go even further and just pretend I didn’t notice her attitude. In fact, I find that going out of your way to be cheery and chipper to people who are throwing shade either takes the wind out of their sails or drives them so crazy that they stop with the “passive” part of passive-aggressive, and then they are exposed as jerks.

      1. ND*

        That’s mostly what I’ve done every time this happens. I think it’s starting to show that it’s her. I’ve noticed some rolling eyes when she’s got an attitude and the office manager has been harping around her childish behavior.

        It’s just … tiring. I wish something like this didn’t affect me so much, but it really pulls down my enjoyment of the job. I’ll try to stop dwelling though. Thank you.

        1. Marillenbaum*

          My advice would be to treat her like an annoying creaky floorboard. As far as you can, step around; when it can’t be avoided, it’s an inconvenience that is not a reflection on you.

    2. Dawn*

      I tend to operate from a place of “don’t touch the drama queen”- if she’s only acting this way towards you, I’m sure she’s dying to have you ask what’s wrong so she can stir up drama. Work is about being professional, and she’s acting like a moody teenager and then trying to pass it off like “lol so moody lol!” No, lady, we’ve all got our own crap to deal with, don’t drag yours into the office and spread it around.

      If you can, I’d say just beef up your professionalism and tact to their maximum when working with her- if she’s in a good mood, then you can be friendly back, if she’s obviously gunning for some drama, then you’re all business and keep your distance.

      1. AMD*

        +1

        You can’t control her moodiness, so try to disengage from it emotionally and just act professionally.

      2. ND*

        I hadn’t thought of that! She may just be waiting for me to ask. Good advice, thank you!

        I always try to discuss workplace issues openly so they can be solved, but this doesn’t seem to be something that can be solved in that way.

      3. Lily Evans*

        Agreed. Asking her about her mood runs the risk or her response being an overblown how dare you accuse me of such behavior reaction, which would just cause more drama. Basically any reaction will just fuel her drama. Take a deep breath and be the bigger person at work, then anonymously vent about it on the internet :)

        1. Laura*

          I’m the moody person too… although thankfully my work partner is even moodier and extremely withdrawn, so she takes most of the flak!

      6. Jadelyn*

        “Don’t touch the drama regent” (because men can be drama royalty too!) is such excellent life advice, thank you. Sometimes you can’t avoid engaging, depending on what they’re doing, but if you can…stay far away and let their crap implode on themselves without catching you as collateral damage.

        2. pugsnbourbon*

          +1, stealing this phrasing. Or maybe “drama monarch,” though that makes me think of an eye-rolling butterfly.

          1. Jadelyn*

            It’s even more appropriate, at least if you’ve ever seen the Venture Bro.s cartoon series!

        3. Andrea*

          I personally favor “drama llama” both because it’s gender neutral and fun to say.

    3. A. Nonymous*

      If she’s wildly fluctuating moods it could mean that something’s really wrong in her life. If you haven’t already maybe just ask “hey, are you okay? Is there anything I can do to help you out? You seem upset today.” If that doesn’t get a response and her behaviour is really erratic then you may want to loop her boss in, people don’t wildly change actions on a daily basis normally.

      I’d be super frustrated too, just saying

      1. ND*

        I do know she’s on some pretty heavy-duty medications for a physical medical issue. That’s part of the reason everyone doesn’t comment on the frequent crying fits. She has a bad habit of crying over personal issues. She’ll google something that reminds her of something sad, or she’ll show a photo to everyone in the office of a long-deceased family member and cry every time she pulls it out.

        1. A. Nonymous*

          Oh man. That’s rough. You can’t force a coworker to take FMLA or anything like that, but the good news is she’s working on it? It’s super frustrating tho. :(

          1. ND*

            Well, I’m not sure it’s a medical issue that can really be worked on. Arthritis? So I suppose sometimes her joints her more than other times? But she’ll be on meds for the rest of her life, to my understanding.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Ugh. ugh. Okay, when people mention stuff over and over, I figure it’s fair game.

          “You know, Jane, you have mentioned your lost family member(s) before. Have you thought about grief counseling? There’s also some really good books about the stages of grief and all the different ways grief manifests.”

          TBH, she does not sound like she even wants to calm down. It’s hard to help a person in this frame of mind. Sometimes you can mention, “I have noticed you get upset several times. This is really a quality of life issue. Maybe you should talk to your doc about it.”

          The common thread I use is I do not pretend not to notice that this has happened “before”. Drawing things out into the light of day can be effective in some instances. And “before” can mean last week or an hour ago, does not matter.

          OTH, you could just calmly state, “You know we have tears because we are suppose to use them. You should cry it out, it will help you to feel better.” Sometimes when we agree with people it totally catches them off guard and changes their reaction.

    5. animaniactoo*

      “Half the time she apologizes later with the comment of, “Oh, I was just cranky about xyz. Sorry. I didn’t mean to take it out on you.””

      Next time she apologizes like this, can you shoot back with something like this? “While I appreciate the apology, this has happened a number of times and is becoming difficult for me to deal with. I’d really appreciate it if you could work on limiting that.” If she gets up in arms about that, I’d come back with something along the lines of “Hey, I’m not trying to create an issue here, but you acknowledged just now that I didn’t deserve to be treated that way and so bigger picture, I’m just saying I’d really appreciate not being treated that way when I don’t deserve it. Even if you apologize afterwards, it still affects me and I’d like to not have to deal with that.”

      2. ND*

        I did this once, but it had no long term effect.

        In that instance, she’d brought in cookies for the whole office and left them in the shared kitchen. Someone noticed and grabbed one before she’d sent out an email announcing cookies from her. I got pulled in when I saw the cookies, popped my head into her office to ask if she knew who brought them in so I could thank them, and was met by a wall of anger and rudeness.

        When she apologized later, I said something similar to your idea (which is laid out much better!), but more of the basis of “No one here deserves to be talked to like that, for any reason.”

        She still has her openly bad attitude…

        1. OhNo*

          I think if you try this approach one or two more times, and still get no appreciable change, it’s time to go to her boss or your boss. You can basically say exactly what you said in your post – no one deserves to be spoken to that way, no one deserves to be treated that way. It’s not suddenly okay just because she apologized after the fact.

          She’s making the work environment extremely unpleasant and I’m sure you’re not the only one walking on eggshells around her. Someone with authority needs to give her an ultimatum, or she probably won’t change.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Having a willingness to get along with others is basic to almost any job. She seems unwilling to get along with others, as people do not know when they will get their heads bit off for some small thing.

        2. catsAreCool*

          “ask if she knew who brought them in so I could thank them” – that seems like something that most people would be pleased to hear so they could say “Oh, I brought them in.” and be thanked.

    6. Clever Name*

      Ugh. I am a very emotional person, but at work, I’m just not. It really isn’t on you to manage her emotions/emotional response for her. If she’s abrupt, or quiet, or whatever, not your problem. I think it would be ideal to ignore her emotional reactions and just don’t react. Treat her exactly the same regardless of her mood. You shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells in case she’s pissy. That is not fair and is unprofessional.

    7. AnAppleADay*

      I’ve had experience with coworkers who behave as if they have some type of personality disorder and it can be extremely frustrating. Note – I’m not diagnosing but it may help to read information on Cluster B types and how you take care of yourself when you have to work around emotional volatile people. Reading up on it might help you find strategies on how to deal with coworkers who play mind games like being overly pleasant with everyone else while giving you the cold shoulder – which is an attempt to control you.

      They want you to play into their drama. If the work environment does not revolve around them and their latest gripe or personal issue then they have to create an issue. They do this to feed their need of feeling in control. If you are generally an empathetic person then you are their perfect target.

      You’re burned out – I can feel it by what you wrote. Since her behavior is already a “known” in your office, I personally would go to her supervisor and ask for suggestions on how to deal with her. Stress the ways her behavior interferes with legitimate work being accomplished.

      Don’t give her what she wants. What I mean by that is the moment you have an outburst is the moment she “wins” at controlling you. That’s one way emotional vampire types are “fed”.

      2. Undercover Mental Health Professional*

        I’ve found this book (http://drjudithorloff.com/Emotional-Freedom/Description.htm) to be a great resource in dealing with people who behave in ways that are traditionally classified as personality disorders. The author, Dr. Judith Orloff, refers to these people as being “emotional vampires”, and though I found some parts of the book to be a bit New Age-y for me, the sections on emotional vampires were really practical and informative.

    8. Mina*

      I know all about this one. I’ve been dealing with it in a small office for over two years now. The first time I asked what was wrong, I was told “the Holy Spirit told me” I wouldn’t take the answer well. I work in a church; but this answer was nothing I could work with. Her real problem is that she felt/feels unfairly treated but I’m the only one she can strike out at. Unfortunately it may well not get better for you. These people just want to lash out and are looking for targets. If management won’t act properly, she’s highly, highly unlikely to change on her own.

      1. ND*

        You know, you’re right. There’s no way I could get her to change her attitude. Maybe I was just fishing for an appropriate way to call her out on it, which is pointless.

        Sorry to hear about your issue! Wow. I have no idea what I’d say to that either.

    9. Catherine*

      Reinforce the good behavior and ignore the bad so if she wants attention, she learns she must behave professionally. To be clear, the bad behavior is the moodiness AND over the top friendliness/apologetic behavior. Good behavior would be talking about work related issues without getting emotional or discussing her weekend without being dramatic or overly negative. Since you asked about phrasing, here are some examples:
      1.
      ND: Hey, how was your weekend?
      Co-worker: Oh, fine, except my mother said the meanest thing.
      ND: I’m sorry. Do you have any ideas on which vendor we should use for the event Friday?
      2.
      ND: Hey, how was your weekend?
      Co-worker: Good. I took the kids to the beach and they had fun until it rained.
      ND: That sounds like fun! If you haven’t been there already, I suggest going to ABC Beach. I loved it as a kid.

      1. ND*

        See, that’s something I really should start doing. She’s always complaining and too often I end up in her office having to listen to it, because she starts in the middle of a meeting, etc.

        I do think our office leans toward under-the-breath whining. People complain to each other all the time. But her huffiness and tone is noticeably more extreme, and she definitely doesn’t keep it behind closed doors.

    10. Anne*

      She seems to be a passive-aggressive manipulator. I would try to ignore her as much as possible. I would not ask her about what is wrong?, Why is she upset or bothered?, etc. If she gets upset about how that question is phrased, then I would most definitely just not ask at all. I ‘m sure you’ve heard this before; but it’s true— You cannot control how others act. You can only control your own actions. Try not to let her mood have too much of an impact on your own. That’s easier said than done sometimes, I know. I have dealt with numerous people like this in the past. In my experience, the best way to handle it is to completely ignore it. This person derives power from controlling how you react. So, don’t react. It is a power trip for them. Even when she is all sunshine and light. Don’t buy into that good mood too much either. it’s part of the manipulation. of of this is just my opinion, of course.

    11. KR*

      Could you try, “Co-worker, you seem kind of upset today. I’m going to give you some space for the morning but we’ll need to talk this afternoon to check in on the project/transfer documents/meet with someone.” It diplomatically recognizes she is not in a good mood and gives her space to get over herself so you can work later in the day.

    12. Honeybee*

      I would do one of two things.

      First, I would probably be direct – “Hey Jane, you seem upset. What’s bothering you?” I wouldn’t phrase in in terms of ‘have I done something,’ because unless I knew I did something untoward I wouldn’t want that person to seize on any imagined admission of guilt. I have had some coworkers in the past a little like this and this usually opens them up.

      If I’m not that comfortable with them or this question elicits a “nothing” from the person, then I switch to what my mentor has labeled Aggressive Positivity. That simply means that I pretend like everything is fine and ignore the drama regent’s dramatic behavior. We go on about our work like nothing happened, and I am my normal positive, bubbly self. This either pushes the person to be honest about what’s going on if they feel like it’s affecting their work…or after a while they start to feel a bit silly about acting offended all day.

    13. Jane*

      I read the whole post about the over eager prospect and agree. If a prospective employee is questioning your ability to do your job and goes over your head now is the time not to hire. This type of person will only escalate once employed by your firm.

      I think Ask a Manager has a good decent point. Any person coming back to a firm with a new supervisor should realize that. Also make a private note that your boss never asked this person if she had seen you first and if so she should be talking to you not him first.

      Proceed to hire someone who knows (acknowledges) you are the boss.

  3. Future Realtor*

    Any part-time realtors or real estate agents out there?

    I currently work full-time in communications but eventually want to make the jump into real estate full-time. Until I feel like I can really make the jump (a.k.a have a decent sized emergency fund to take care of those slow months), I want to do it part-time. I’m getting ready to go through real estate school in the fall and take the exam. Has anyone else done real estate part-time while still working at your full-time job?

    1. Dawn*

      I haven’t but my mentor has- she started doing real estate full time and took a part-time job during a slow period (which quickly ramped up into full-time because there was that much work to do). She said it completely nosedived her real estate stuff and that suffered as a result, so she quit the part time job after 3 months.

      Real estate is all about the hustle, so if you’re not hustling I don’t see how you’re going to make any money doing it- and I don’t think it’s possible to have enough hours in a day to do a full time job and then do the real estate hustle on the side.

      2. the gold digger*

        Real estate is all about the hustle

        My husband hired a part-time realtor to sell his mom and dad’s house because the guy was new and he wanted to give him a chance.

        It was a huge mess. Anything Primo needed done, the realtor would tell him he was busy coaching a soccer game or driving his daughter somewhere, etc. It was really frustrating trying to deal with someone who was not treating this as his full-time job.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I haven’t but my friends who have stuck with it, really have had to focus on it full-time, like Dawn commented.

      Though I know one of the ways my friends supplemented their income in the early days was also working as an apartment locator. In my city the service is free, the locator just asks (i.e. tells you every 10 seconds) to put their name down as the referrer. They get between $100-$500 from apartment complexes.

    4. Office Bitch*

      I’m not an agent, but I work at a residential rentals r agency, and a good number of agents here do part-time. It *is* about the hustle and you do only get back the time you can put in, but if you’re wondering whether it’s feasible to start part-time and transition to full-time, it absolutely is. Figure out how much money you need to make per month to meet your goals (including your savings goals) and then figure out how much time you need to invest to produce those results. Then figure out whether that time is feasible for you.

    5. AP*

      I’m not a realtor, but I just bought a house with a realtor who does it part-time. From working with her, I know her full-time job is super flexible, so she is able to be available weekday mornings and evenings, and she works hard to keep her weekend open so she can work around client’s schedules. I was also impressed that she was really able to work around our schedule, and was able to dedicate a lot of time to meeting us at weird hours.

      So, I would think that the level of flexibility in your full-time job is super important, as is your own tolerance to dealing with other’s schedules first. For instance, if you know that your full-time gig isn’t real flexible and you need time on the weekend to run errands/relax, you might find it hard to balance. Just my observation!

    6. INTP*

      Not a realtor but recently lived through a house sale. I don’t really see how this is something you could do well without a lot of flexibility, because so many things in real estate are time sensitive.

      My parents requested 30 minutes notice for house viewings and many, many potential buyers and their realtors couldn’t even respect that. Our realtor had to be there during a lot of contractor, tile guy, flooring guy, etc appointments, and they tend to show up a couple of hours before or after their appointment times, so the realtor (we had two that worked together, at least) had to be super flexible about that. Offer negotiations often take place very quickly, during the work day.

      I just can’t imagine hiring a realtor with a strict 8-5 type job when there are other realtors willing to bend over backwards and show up whenever needed, but if your day job is flexible it might work? Big time realtors with too many clients to be on-demand for all of them also often hire other realtors who can work as their proxies with the lower paying clients or when they’re really busy, you might be able to get experience that way as well.

      1. Natalie*

        That’s so true about the offer stage. I was just buying a house and I am so lucky my workplace was understanding (and I’m a good performer with a track record) because I had to make so many phone calls during work when we were negotiating.

    7. Q*

      When I sold my house, my realtors were two women who worked together as a team. They each worked part time but one of them was always available. Maybe you could work out a similar situation.

      1. QA Lady*

        I was going to post something similar. I have a former co-worker who worked full time and did real estate on the weekends, but worked with her husband who was a full time realtor. After her maternity leave ended and became a realtor full time, I assume because of the increased flexibility.

    8. just another librarian*

      I don’t work in the field, but I did ask a realtor I know what her thoughts on this and she said her agency only hires FT people. They are willing to train but they ask for a full-time commitment because otherwise people are not available enough to clients for the agency’s standards.

    9. super anon*

      my spouse is a full time realtor and has been for 3 years. it’s not a job you can do part time and do well. the realtors he knows who have other jobs rarely do deals, maybe 1 to 2 a year at most. my spouse tried to do it part time while working at his day job in sales, but he realized it wasn’t feasible after a few months and quit his day job to real estate full time.

      aside from getting your license you are going to have a lot of start up costs. you need to buy your signs, and your business cards. you will need to pay desk fees at your brokerage every month, regardless of if you have done any deals or not. desk fees vary between brokerages. smaller brokerages may charge less (where my boyfriend is is around $300 a month), while larger ones may charge more. iirc remax charges a lot, around $1000 a month. you will also need to take courses every 2 years to keep your license that vary in cost, as well as paying a yearly fee to renew your license after you get it. this isn’t including the cost of gas, your car, etc. you will be driving a lot as a realtor – taking clients to showings, prospecting, etc. and this isn’t including your cost if you need to get a new vehicle that is large enough to drive clients around comfortably to showings. my boyfriend had to upgraded to a new and more luxurious vehicle about a year after he started, in part because it was what clients expected, and also because he needed something larger that could fit 5 people comfortably.

      it can be very difficult when you start out to build a client base. my partner was lucky, he had a huge client base of builders and tradesmen from his previous sales position and a large social network that included a lot of wealthy people with money and connections to give him a head start. when you start out you will be doing a lot of leg work to generate leads (this is called prospecting). a lot of realtor’s will go door knocking, which means you target an area and go knock on every door with a flyer asking if they want to sell. this an be very difficult work, but it can pay off big time too. often realtors who do this will specialize in one area of the city and only do listings in that one area, so they can become an expert in that area. when you’re starting out this isn’t as common, you’ll most likely take listings and do deals where ever your clients want, which means a lot of driving for you in the beginning. as you get more experienced you can become more selective about the clients you take.

      another option when you’re starting out is to join a real estate team. these are usually a group of realtors who all work together under one team name (usually the name of the realtor who started it). the head realtor is someone who is well known and has a lot of clients. they will give you listings to work with – you will open the door for showings, do showing bookings, do open houses – all of the leg work the main realtor doesn’t have time to do. for your work you will get a certain percentage of the final commission after the sale. the important part of teams is that you won’t get full commission on the deals you close yourself without the team’s help. if you’re on a team and the team gets 85% of the commission and you get 15%, you will still only get 15% of the commission, even if your client has nothing to do with the team and you got them yourself. however, the experience you can gain from this is very valuable, and after a bit you will have enough experience and a big enough client base to head out on your own.

      realtor’s work really long, and odd, hours, especially if you work with overseas buyers and sellers. it’s not uncommon for my partner to leave the house at 11 PM to get a contract signed, or to be answering calls from overseas at that time as well. he also spends a lot of time doing paperwork and research, as well as networking. he goes to a lot of lunches and dinners to meet other people in the industry and make connections. he now has a huge network of mortgage brokers, lawyers and notaries, cleaners, painters, etc that he can tap into and refer to clients, and in turn, those people refer him customers.

      there’s a lot to learn in the business, and a lot of different facets. the part most people think of when they think of realtor’s is residential sales, but there is also land assembly and commercial property selling, as well as rental agents. land assembly can take a really long time to pull together (you could be working on a deal for 2 years or more before it ever gets to market), and commercial is also time consuming and difficult, but you can make a lot of money on those kinds of deals.

      the compensation is also variable – there can be months where my boyfriend won’t get anything, and then months where he gets tens of thousands of dollars all at once. you don’t get paid until a deal completes – and deals can collapse at any time before possession. having a healthy savings account, plus good spending habits & budgeting ability will help a lot here. my partner had enough money in the bank for a year’s worth of living expenses if either of us had no income when he left his job (this was after all of the start up costs for his real estate career).

      oh, and one more thing – you should see how banks, etc classify you for taxes, getting a mortgage, etc. where we are realtors are classified as commission based employment – this meant it was more difficult for us to get a mortgage when we wanted to buy a property. if my partner was buying alone he would have had to pay a 35% down payment to secure one if he was purchasing alone. however, the benefits for taxes are also pretty good. because he is self-employed he can claim a lot of things on his taxes that i can’t because i have a regular 9-5.

      i asked him what he thinks of doing real estate part time and he said this: “your clients will want to be able to talk to you or go see properties at variable times. if you have to tell them “sorry, i can’t take you to a showing i’m busy” or you ignore their calls because you are at work you will lose clients, and that isn’t professional. you’ll never make it in the industry working part time”.

      i hope this overly long comment helped! i can try to answer more questions if you have them. i worked as his assistant for a while, and we talk a lot so i know quite a bit about the industry and the job itself.

      1. super anon*

        oh and one more thing – when you get into real estate, try to find a mentor asap. my partner found a mentor very quickly in the managing broker of the brokerage that he joined. the managing broker has been in the business for over 40 years and helped him with all of the questions he had, plus gave him leads, etc. when it was clear the brokerage was going to go under he gave my boyfriend a tip off and brought him with him to his new brokerage. he still feeds him leads and helps him with difficult cases and questions. it’s been a very beneficial business relationship for him.

      2. the gold digger*

        Being a good realtor is really, really hard! I had a great realtor when I sold my house and then when Primo and I bought this one. They knew their stuff and didn’t waste time and got stuff done.

        Primo’s jerk brother, Ted, told Primo he should have negotiated a 5% commission with the realtor who sold their dad’s house. He said “Five percenters get laughed out of the room.”

        This from a man who

        1. Has never sold a house
        2. Has not had a steady job for decades
        3. Did none of the work to clean up the house and the estate

        I was not crazy about the realtor Primo chose, but I do not begrudge him or any other realtor their commission. To do this job well takes a lot of work and they earn that money.

        1. catsAreCool*

          From reading your blog, I’m not surprised Ted hasn’t had a steady job for decades. People everywhere probably take a deep breath of relief when he leaves their vicinity.

    10. Raia*

      My work buddy does part time real estate! It seems difficult, and typically she uses her PTO days when she’s closing a house, in the evenings she’s looking at properties, and at lunch and occasionally during the day she does calls. She also kind of amazes me with how many things she gets done in a day, so if you find yourself to be a super productive person then maybe you could! I totally couldn’t, I need my downtime to create and be introverted.

  4. Random Reader*

    Any advice on working with impending layoffs looming? Layoffs will be coming in the next 2 months or so, and it’s just a question of how big it’s going to be. I have good reason to believe it’ll be me in my department that’s let go if they need to let someone go. I’m job searching like crazy, but haven’t had much luck yet.

    It’s a balance of wanting to do a good well at my current job, but if I’m going to be laid off, what’s the point? Just feeling frustrated.

    1. RR*

      Having lived through a similar situation, my advice would be to do your best work possible without having to resort to heroic measures (ie no staying into the wee wee hours). If you are laid off, the point of doing a good job is 1) you’ll feel better about yourself and your own integrity, 2) people remember. Like first impressions, your last bit of time in a role also stands out. You never know whose path you may cross again. Good luck!

    2. Slippy*

      Also try and search outside of your immediate area if possible. When moderate to large layoffs occur they create depress the local job market so you may have better luck finding something farther away or mostly remote work (if that is possible).

      1. Angela*

        This is a good point. I was part of a layoff recently and had to go about 40 miles away. Might not sound like much to some, but my previous “commute” had been less than 2 miles.

    3. Tilly W*

      Not related to job search but I had posted a few months ago about an upcoming layoff and managing my anxiety while at work. It’s not a fun environment and you have my sympathy. One of the posters suggested “self-soothing” and doing little things to help you get through the work day (wear a favorite outfit or color, bring your favorite foods for lunch etc.). It really helped so I wanted to “re-share” the suggestion.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I’ve been laid off and am now in the midst of supporting the layoff process in several areas within my organization. A couple of pieces of advice:

      First, don’t be too hard on yourself, about your job search, about your work, about your feelings. This is a very stressful process, and it’s normal to not be able to work at your same level. Give yourself a little breathing room.

      Second, one thing that often helps folks is to think about the legacy you want to leave, and the reference you want to have, even if you’re laid off. I know that my job search was made a lot easier by having a manager who could tell employers that even after I was laid off, I still produced excellent work. It’s hard to stay motivated when you think about it in terms of doing it for an employer, which is laying you off, but a bit easier when you’re thinking about it in terms of your own future and benefit.

      Finally, it might be helpful to quickly norm with your boss about their expectations about both your current workload, and how you’re spending time on searching for new positions. Many staff here have been surprised to hear that their managers were completely on board with them spending a small part of each work day on their job search. Totally depends on your relationship with your boss whether you want to bring this up, but it might take a load off to know that your boss doesn’t really expect you to be working like nothing changed.

  5. March*

    Happy Canada Day to my fellow Canadians! And a somber lest we forget to any Newfoundlanders.

    How do you handle people who don’t stop giving bad advice? My parents will frequently give advice that I know won’t work (such as bringing in a tray of pastries to my internship supervisors of two years ago in order to get a job), but when I say “I won’t do that for [legitimate reason]” they ignore it. If I say “I think about it” they huff and say “well that means you won’t do it”. I can’t tell them their advice sucks, but yeesh, I’m not going to do everything they suggest.

    2. AMD*

      Do they often follow up to see if you followed their advice? Because if not, perfect your “Interesting, I’ll think about it!” response and go about your business.

      1. March*

        They do, and unfortunately they’ll ask repeatedly. A typical discussion will typically start with them making a suggestion, me saying some variation on “I’ll think about it”, them talking at length about why it’s such a good idea. Cue the next day, or a few hours later, a few days later, etc., and they’ll ask if I’ve done it.

        1. A. Nonymous*

          You could try giving them some new information if they’re receptive to that sort of thing. There are excellent examples on this site of why those things don’t work! “Thank you for the advice, but I’ve done research and I’m sorry to say that it’s not feasible and could hurt my chances. Here, check out this website!”

    3. A. Nonymous*

      Happy Canada Day!

      With parents it’s always good to smile and say “Thanks for the advice!” then move it along. They’re not likely to change giving outdated advice and at least you’re not following it.

    4. Karo*

      I guess the real question is how dependent are you on them right now? Because if you’re not at all, or if you don’t think they would react poorly to it, I’d start going with “yeah, not going to happen.” They think that any answer means no, and they don’t respect your reasoning, so just start telling them no!

      1. March*

        I still live at home and they don’t charge me anything for rent/groceries/utilities/etc. So unfortunately if I shut them down firmly, there’s a lot of sway for them to push back negatively.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          Ah yes, that’s an awkward position to be in. I remember when I moved back in with my mom after graduating from college, and because she wasn’t charging me for rent or anything really, she felt that gave her the right to tell me exactly what I needed to do in my job search (and all of her suggestions except the temp one was wildly out of date) and if I didn’t, that gave her the right to hound me to death. I too didn’t feel comfortable pushing back too much because she was allowing me to live in her house without contributing to it (and she was paying my bills), but at some point, I had to draw the line because her nitpicking was driving me crazy.

          Can you suggest a time to talk with your folks and lay out what you’re doing in your job search and politely ask them to back off while you attempt to navigate this yourself? I sometimes wonder if I had come to my mom with anything remotely resembling a plan if she would have ridden me so hard or backed off without is having a knockdown drag out.

          1. March*

            I’ll have to try that. If I tell them “this is my plan, I’ve research these things and I’m going to do this. I’ll let you know if I’ve got questions or need advice, but otherwise I need to do this on my own”, they might listen. I’m pretty sure my sister has done similar things in the past, with reasonable success.

            1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

              Talk about how you’re trying to become an independent adult, and you want them to be proud of you. That usually hits em where it hurts.

        2. knitcrazybooknut*

          How about “You may be right” and nod affirmatively? Just leave of the “when hell freezes over” end of the sentence.

    5. bb-great*

      No advice, just commiseration. Heaven forbid parents try to understand that actually I know my field better than they do :P

    6. Business Cat*

      The only thing I could think to do is to shut it down immediately. Tweaking AMD’s phrasing a bit, maybe start with “That’s an interesting idea, but that’s not how I feel comfortable approaching the situation. Thanks for your input.” Or whatever polite version of that works for you.

      Then, if they bring it up again, say “No, as I said, that wasn’t the right option for me.” And if they press:
      – If you’re on the phone, say that you need to go and quickly end the conversation.
      – If you’re in person, change the subject, and if they keep pressing aggressively, give yourself the option to dip out.
      – If they ask via e-mail, completely ignore the question and change the subject entirely. Just ignore it as if they hadn’t mentioned it.

      You don’t owe them a long, belabored explanation of why their advice is bad. You have the right to choose what advice you do and don’t follow. As long as you receive the advice politely, what you do from there is entirely up to you. You have to start training them out of the expectation that you’ll spend an absurd amount of time discussing why you won’t do it their way. If they can’t respect or react rationally to your decisions, they have lost the privilege to discuss them with you.

      1. Business Cat*

        I just read the part where you still live at home, but most of my advice still stands. As long as you are polite and respectful to them on a general level, you can still enforce boundaries that work for you.

      2. Purple Jello*

        This is good advice. I try not to push too much on my kids, but they usually just acknowledge what I’m saying with an “Ok Mom”. When they say “I’ll take it under consideration” I know it’s time to stop talking, because they’ve stopped listening.

        From the point of view of a parent who wants to help her kids: please listen, you might hear something of value. They’re letting you live there rent free, how about considering that listening politely is part of your rent? It might make it more palatable for you to think of it this way. Then respond politely, with short explanations as other people have suggested.

        1. March*

          I do listen. I listen both the first time they make suggestions, I consider them, and I respond, and I listen the twentieth time they make the same suggestion. The problem is that they don’t listen to me: if I say “I’m not going to bring pastries to Former Supervisor, because that’ll look out of touch and is really just not done anymore”, they’ll respond by sending me recipes of pastries to make and bring in. I’m grateful and appreciative that they want to help and that they want me to be successful, but listening is a two way street and right now they’re ignoring that.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            I’m grateful and appreciative that they want to help and that they want me to be successful, but listening is a two way street and right now they’re ignoring that.

            + 1. Now go tell this to my mother, lol.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      If you’re talking to them about this stuff, stop. Then they won’t know what to suggest because they won’t know what’s going on. Just bean dip, as the Etiquette Hell lady says: “Hmm, interesting advice, thanks. Have you tried that amazing bean dip Willow makes? I hope she brings some to Buffy’s party!”

      If you’re not discussing it with them, bean dipping can still work but you have to be consistent.

      1. March*

        I’ve been doing that more and more lately, with zero subtlety. I don’t think they like it – actually, scratch that, I know they don’t – but talking with them about anything related to my job search is frustrating, so it’s probably better for everyone if it’s a topic we don’t discuss.

        I get that they want me to have a good job and that they want me to successful, but all I want is to never talk about stuff with jobs, ever.

        1. zora.dee*

          Hmm, another idea: can you try getting their sympathy, will that work?

          So, whenever job search topics come up, just say “It’s really stressing me out to think about my job search right now, can we talk about something else?” Maybe giving them the opportunity to solve your problem by helping you feel better by changing the subject will work?

          It seems like they are trying to be The Hero by solving your problems for you. Can you give them another job to do that lets them still feel like The Hero but on a different subject?

          EIther way, good luck, I hope you get a job soon and all of this is moot! ;o)

    8. Me234*

      I have been on both sides of this situation. I have given my grown son advice, then been irritated when he didn’t listen, but then appreciative of the fact that he is an adult now and making his own way in life.

      How about this: “Mom, Dad… I appreciate your advice. I will always listen and take it into consideration. But I am an adult, and I want and need to figure things out on my own. I want and need to learn from my own successes and mistakes. I may not always do what you think I should, but that is okay because I’m grown up now and I’m trying to make my own way. I love you guys and I hope that you will keep giving me advice because sometimes I’m going to need it, and I know it shows that you love me, too.”

      That’s what I’d like to hear from my kids.

      1. March*

        I’ve tried that, and they were offended by it. They’ll always bring up another family member who is “too stubborn to listen to advice” and has had a lot of poor luck with being employed as reasons that I should heed their advice.

        “I’m really glad you try to give me advice and help me, but I’m not going to follow every single suggestion and sometimes I have good reasons not to take your advice, and I need you to listen” goes ignored.

        I wish my parents were able to listen like you!

        1. neverjaunty*

          1) Don’t discuss the job stuff
          2) Don’t say anything that would further the conversation.

          By #2 I mean you can make listening noises/smile and nod/change the subject. Don’t get into it with them. Don’t critique their advice. Don’t say you will or won’t do it. Surely by now you must have mastered the skill of tuning parents out. ;)

        2. Anon Moose*

          Ah, I should have refreshed and read this before commenting below.
          My advice then, if they were offended, is to try to see a little deeper. Why are they really being this pushy?
          Is it anxiety/ not sure how to cope with being unable to fix things for you? My parents had a lot of that. They were just really frustrated that they couldn’t help me when I was out of college, living at home and unemployed. Some of the incessant job advice was coming from that anxious place, I think. For me, it helped when I got my mom to admit that part of it was just my lack of success at job searching was emotionally difficult for her as well and then I could address that by saying “Mom, I know you’re stressed about this. I’m stressed too. But what you’re doing right now isn’t helping.”
          Is it financial worries? Is it rough to have you in the house semi-rent free over the long term? Then you could address that with them directly too. You can say you will contribute x amount if you aren’t employed by x date, or that you will get a part time job or do more to contribute around the house to help with things. You can talk directly about your expectations and theirs for how temporary of a situation this will be.
          Another related concern is that you aren’t doing “enough” in your job search, thus the incessant advice. You may be doing all you can, but that can sometimes be hard for them to perceive against the results (and not understanding that you can’t control all of the job search results). You can push back on this directly by documenting what you do and consistently trying to improve over time. See career coaches. Go to workshops and networking events and job searches. And let them know (as a notification, not as approval) all the things you’re doing to push forward in your search.
          Another thing is to see if you can talk to other people who are not them and are a little more knowledgeable about your field. So if you do informational interviews with people in your field, you can push back with “no Mom, I talked to Sally Hiring Manager and she said to never do that.” Basically getting an expert they respect to back you up and overrule their advice.
          Good luck finding something soon!

          1. Anon Moose*

            And re: talking to experts: don’t be surprised if they tell you some similar things that your parents did (not about the pastries, but other things). It can be helpful to get even good advice from another source when you’re in this frustrating living at home and job searching situation.

          2. Anxa*

            I moved out in part because I couldn’t take the tension at home anymore. It was so difficult because my mom would ignore the elephant in the room, and then just explode at me for being lazy and telling me I needed to get a job (like I wasn’t trying? like I liked living at home?).

            I was on eggshells all of the time and my anxiety really ramped up. And even though I was trying harder, I wasn’t trying smartly. I was kind of a mess because I wasn’t just applying for me, but my family was riding on it.

            I think for me, it was made worse by how much my mom had given up to send me to college. She moved and paid for most of it. And to be frank, I wasted her money. She couldn’t find a job; I couldn’t find a job; my brother couldn’t find a job. We would have been better off had I never gone to college, and now that I’m 30 and still can’t find a full-time job (or two part times willing to work around each other), I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to recoup the money spent.

            So for me, knowing how stressed my mom was over my failure to launch really effected my confidence and self-esteem, to a point where it probably made me an even worse applicant.

        3. knitcrazybooknut*

          If they don’t listen to you, they’ve lost their right to you actually considering their idea. My best advice would be to nod and smile and say non-committal things, like, wow, that is probably true! You may be right! I should try that!

          While you’re in the conversation, let these things roll off of your back. Pretend you’re a gray rock or a robot. Let them go in one ear and out the other. Do not protest or argue with them.

          Then do what YOU think is right. You can’t make them listen to you. You can’t change their behavior. You can only find a way to deal with it that doesn’t impact you as much, and make a plan to get the heck out of their house asap.

    9. Batshua*

      Can you thank them for their advice without implying further action? Or just say “Okay” to show you were listening?

    10. Audiophile*

      Ah that famous “that means you won’t do it,” or “you’re just going to do what you want anyway” line.

      I’ve gone through this many times. I’m in the communications marketing sector and more times than I care to count, I’ve been told I’m in the wrong field or that there’s no jobs in the field or that the field is oversaturated. My response now, is usually to say that I already did what was suggested. Of course that doesn’t exactly work with pastries, but maybe you could say you picked some up and brought them in and your supervisors were very appreciative.

    11. Pineapple Incident*

      Just smile and look optimistic, then change the subject QUICKLY. Just don’t do what I did any try to tell them they’re wrong, because it doesn’t work. Here’s that story though, just for kicks..

      I had to sit through a really awkward dinner last year when my uncle decided my bad outlook on jobs as an entry-level searcher was just unacceptable. I ended up in tears because of his flouting of my reasons, in front of 15 family members who did nothing to rescue me. He just would not accept that it’s not kosher anymore to walk up to legitimate employers and give them your elevator pitch complete with resume and examples of your work. Basically he was advocating for a Gilmore Girls-style hand-forcing where you (the job-seeker, Rory Gilmore circa season 6) are so persistent and obnoxious that the big boss just decides to give you a job eventually. The uncle in question works in BIG Wall Street Finance (like goes on sometimes about how awful the guys at Goldman Sachs are because he’s actually met those people..), and hasn’t had to job search without the help of his extensive network in 30 years.

    12. ginger ale for all*

      I tell my parents why I am not going to follow their advice. Honesty is the way to go because it if you tell them why things won’t work, they will rethink things.

      1. ThatGirl*

        That would be true in a perfect world, but a whole lot of people are unwilling to rethink things.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        LOL. Parents that are that pushy probably could be told “That is not how job hunting is handled now, folks.”

        OP, you’d probably make out better if you have a real conversation about what is at the bottom of all their nagging. “You always ask me that. Why.”
        If it were my folks, I’d toss an AAM guide at them and let them know when they are done reading we could have a real talk. Tricky part, my folks avoided reading books like the plague. So when they’d start in, I would be able to say,”have you finished the guide yet?”
        They would probably say no and then I would restate, “We’ ll talk when you are done.”

    14. Rat Racer*

      My husband, wonderful man that he is many ways, gives the WORST career advice ever. Partly it’s because he gets mad on my behalf whenever I’m facing something/someone frustrating at work, partially it’s because tactics that work for him would never work for me. So, I have learned that whenever he gives me advice “You should march right into your boss’s office and DEMAND…” I do exactly the opposite, and it works out pretty well.

    15. Liana*

      My family can be pretty blunt with each other, and both my parents tend to offer outdated career advice (mostly my dad, but my mom’s not innocent), so when I ran into this with them, I just went with a “I’m not going to do that.” And when they asked why, I just said “Because that’s a bad idea” or “Nobody does that anymore” or my personal favorite, “Because I’m not going to.” They probably thought I was being pigheaded, but they did stop offering advice after awhile, so it worked!

    16. Camellia*

      Could you explain your reference to Newfoundlanders? I’m curious, having just discovered “Republic of Doyle” a few weeks ago on Netflix (and loving it).

      1. March*

        Sure. :) I’ll keep it short so it doesn’t completely veer into OT, though.

        Today is the one hundredth anniversary of the Battle of Beaumont Hamel, in the Battle of the Somme in WWI. Eight hundred soldiers from the Newfoundland Regiment went over the top into no man’s land to storm the Germans, and it went very badly – only 68 men answered roll call the next day. The island suffered, and I’m not exaggerating when I say that entire communities were lost as a result. It’s always a bit of a sad day here, but especially this year.

      2. Meg*

        It’s Memorial Day there, and this year is the 100th anniversary of a big World War I battle that killed hundreds of Newfoundlanders.

    17. Anon Moose*

      Ugh. I know this struggle with parents. The advice to say “thanks” and do your own thing is good, but if this continues happening, you can also try to talk to them directly about it. I.e. why are you consistently giving me career advice and not listening to me when I tell you that I will not do it for legitimate reasons? My mom at one point admitted she was partially doing it because she felt helpless and anxious about my job search and continued lack of success. Some of their advice was good, but some of it was out of touch and her anxiety and my anxiety combined weren’t helping. After a while I said, “I appreciate that you want to help but it is getting overwhelming/ anxiety provoking for both you and me. If I need advice or help with job stuff, I will ask, but I would like you to stop giving me the same advice I’ve already rejected over and over. And at the end of the day, it is my job search and my career and I will make the decisions about how to go about it.” Repeat as necessary. “Mom, we’ve already discussed this.” At the same time, I stopped ranting to my parents about my own frustrations with my job search, which precipitated a lot of the conversations, and instead ranted to friends in similar situations, which helped. Then I went and made several somewhat risky moves that the parents didn’t agree with completely but that worked out fine in the end. Now they tell me how impressed they are that I went ahead and did those things.

    18. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Approaches
      -I would feed them horror stories about xyz intern who did that and look where it got them, and I wouldn’t mince words.
      -I could try it once on a different place/folks and garner a response. Then go back to parents and say it really didn’t work. (My mom told me to give workers a fancy $40 trinket and exotic food as a thank you, I told her it was against policy, she’s the one who drove the car and wouldn’t hear of me not giving it). Suffice it to say, I don’t intern there any more, I give only ty cards, and my mom occasionally listens to me.

      Note: My mother did the same thing, but I live a state away from her and got a job offer doing something very different from what she suggested. Sometimes you can’t reason with people, and your only escape is getting an excellent-paying job, living far, far away.

  6. legalchef*

    I applied to a job yesterday where they said they wanted a cover letter, resume, and references. I sent those, and then got an email this morning asking me to fill out a 10 page application! I’ve never done one of these before so I have a few questions:

    1 – They ask for 3 supervisor references. I don’t have 3 that I’d want to use, since I have been at this job my entire professional career. Any internship supervisor reference would be from 2006 at the latest, since I interned at this org the summer after my second year of law school. The only 3 I theoretically could use are my former immediate supervisor, my former unit director (who is still at my org so I don’t want to use him), and my current unit director (who I don’t want to use because I don’t want them contacting my current employer). What do I do?
    2 – They want me to list out my employment history (including my salary, ugh). Though I’ve been at the same place the whole time, I’ve had 4 different job titles (all doing the same work with progressively more responsibility). Do I count those as 1 position, or 4? Does the clinic I did in law school count as employment? How far back am I supposed to go? Do I go back to my first job in college in 2002?
    3 – Will it look bad for me if I check off the box that says that I do not want them contacting my current employer?
    4 – They want my high school info, including any honors I received in HS. Hell if I can remember that. Can I just leave the honors section blank?
    5 – There is a question asking me list any other experience, skills, or qualifications that I think should be considered, and they give computer skills and volunteer work as examples. I wrote a sentence that kinda summarizes my cover letter. Is that enough?

    If anyone has any answers for me, I would really appreciate it! Would it be bad to send an email asking for clarification of the supervisor references and employment history?

    (I guess it’s a good sign that they sent it to me, since I’m guessing they don’t have people spend the time filling it out unless they are interested in interviewing, but still!)

    1. Megs*

      For number 2, I usually list this kind of thing as different positions for lengthy application purposes. Lame, but at least it accurately captures job responsibility. I wouldn’t list a clinic as employment, but as an academic activity like a journal or moot court.

      As for your last question, I wouldn’t think a quick clarification question would hurt. The person getting the email is most likely not the one making decisions, in any case.

      1. legalchef*

        Thanks! That makes sense. I’ve asked a few friends and I have gotten an equal number of “separate them” and “keep them together” answers.

        Would it change your thoughts re the clinic if the application says to include volunteer work?

        Also, for the description of the job, can I just copy and paste from my resume? (forgot to ask this above)

        1. Jaydee*

          I think list clinic as employment. It is much more similar to an internship than moot court or journal would be. Depending on the exact clinic program, you likely had actual clients, created work product of a substantial nature, and handled types of matters that may or may not be the same as what you did in later jobs. Now that your about 10 years out of law school I wouldn’t devote as much resume real estate to it as I would to your post-school jobs. But it can still be a good way to highlight a particular experience that might be relevant to a future employer.

          Also, good luck with the job search! Your career path sounds very similar to mine (clinic, graduation mid 2000s, one employer since then and the resulting fear of requests for references).

          1. legalchef*

            I definitely did have actual clients at my clinic, and I represented them in court and at hearings. Definitely different than my journal, which is listed as an activity in my education section.

            And thanks! What are you doing/did you do re references?

        2. Megs*

          If they said to include volunteer, then I would definitely include it. And I copy and paste all the time for these things and it hasn’t stopped me getting interviews. I’ve been trying to get a job with the state and they love these kind of things.

    2. CMT*

      Jeez. Do you really want this job? This would probably put me off. I also don’t think it’s either a positive or negative sign about how much they want you. I bet having a ridiculously long application is just part of their process.

      1. legalchef*

        I was trying to think positively about having to fill this out. I wish they would have just included the application with their “how to apply” instructions.

        As for if I really want it… maybe? It would be a step up and would get me out of this job, which definitely needs to happen sooner rather than later.

      3. higheredrefugee*

        If you are going into corporate/large non-profit from a law firm, then this is likely the form they ask of every employee. Many times, you get this application because they are serious about you, but have to follow HR policies that apply to everyone. Particularly for professional positions, neither the hiring manager or the candidates are interested in having this form before it is needed. It also helps weed out candidates that object to filling it all out, either because they are divas or really aren’t that interested in the position.

        If you can, yes, check do not contact my employer, and indicate that you are willing to determine the best contact when an offer is forthcoming, but until then, your search needs to be confidential. Being with the same employer for ten years, you need to have someone that can speak on your behalf, even if it is a supervisor that has since left your current employer. Using past clients in the references is usually a good win, if you can prep them properly before reference calls. As for sharing your salary, leave it blank, or enter zeros, and simply tell them that information is confidential, just as they keep salaries of their employees confidential, and you’ll be happy to talk about whether their hiring range is within your expectations. For both of these, a call to your HR contact is in order so you’re not writing it down and getting a better sense of timeline.

        As for high school, again, I suspect that this is the company-wide form, which this part is relevant for hiring receptionists and mail room clerks. I’m sure you were on Honor Roll or Dean’s List and National Honor Society, and if you can remember that much truthfully, that’s good enough. But because you are pushing back on things that are more important to you like salary information and references, play ball where it doesn’t really matter. This shows that you understand that this org’s culture may be more structured than the one you are leaving. This is also where your legal clinic can help show that you have worked with multiple kinds of clients and environments.

      4. Panda Bandit*

        The sad part is that this application pretty much mirrors the kind used for retail jobs. I hope they aren’t going to spring some terrible 100+ question “psychological” test on legalchef.

    3. Dawn*

      “I guess it’s a good sign that they sent it to me, since I’m guessing they don’t have people spend the time filling it out unless they are interested in interviewing, but still!”

      Nope, they have terrible hiring practices. When I was job hunting I specifically did not follow through with companies that wanted an invasive application in addition to my resume because ain’t nobody got time for that. You might not feel that way about this particular position, but I’d strongly suggest moving on to applying to another job that doesn’t want such a ridiculous requirement out of their job applicants!

      1. Foxtrot*

        Yeah…at first glance it sounded like something that could be required of a job with extensive background checks. But I’ve never heard of places needing to know high school *awards* after you graduate college!

      2. Isabel C.*

        Seriously. I thought it was bad enough having to deal with the fifty different application screening software programs–I always do fill them out, but I always also wonder if, given that I’m submitting my resume, anyone cares whether or not I add “work experience slots” to account for the sixteen years that I’ve been out of college–but high school honors? Lord, no.

    4. IT_Guy*

      #2 – I would leave off the salary. A lot of companies use that information to low-ball the prospective employee. If the ask for it, I would inquire what the salary range of the position is.

        1. JHS*

          I would second the advice to leave it off. If they press you for it later, you can tell them then. It’s sort of like when someone asks for your social security number and you prefer not to list it.

        2. Slippy*

          If leaving off the salary puts you in the “reject” pile they are doing you a favor because it would be highly likely that they are going to use your previous salary against you.

    5. Pwyll*

      #3 – No reasonable employer will be concerned that you don’t want your current boss to be contacted. It’s very, very normal.

    6. A. Nonymous*

      That sends all kinds of red flags to me. I wouldn’t include my salary and I certainly wouldn’t feel like my highschool education was important! The last question is reasonable, but like you said, it’s IN your resume/cover letter. Sounds like they don’t read those and just send out this farm application.

    7. J.B.*

      I had an application like this before a first interview. We were not the right fit, shall we say. I did enter each separate job I’ve had within the current organization because it showed a clear progression.

    8. Turanga Leela*

      Not sure of most of these, but…

      1: List your former immediate supervisor and then whoever else you’d usually use. Internship supervisor from 2006 is not ideal, but okay. Also maybe a law school professor you TA’d for, or your clinic supervisor? It sounds like this is a pretty rigid place, so I wouldn’t try to list fewer than three references, but make sure they are people who will say good things about you, and make sure the former immediate supervisor will be able to talk about you in depth.

      3: No, that doesn’t look bad. Definitely check the box saying not to contact your current employer. Based on advice I got on this blog, I also never give my current supervisor’s phone number if I can help it—I write something like “Professor Farnsworth, CEO. Please do not contact, since I am still employed with this organization.”

      4: Yes, you can leave your HS honors section blank. If you remember anything, though—if you were valedictorian or a National Merit finalist—I don’t think it hurts you to include it.

      1. Panthalassa*

        My very large employer has a similar application, which I suspect is designed to be relevant for all positions and all applicants. There are many people where high school is their last formal education, and in those cases, honors level etc. could set an applicant apart. We also have primary source verification of education, and back ground checks so if an applicant can’t survive the (admittedly arduous) application form, they are going to really hate being an employee!

        1. Turanga Leela*

          That’s always what I figure—if you haven’t graduated from college, your high school record could matter, and that’s why it’s in there. Since legalchef has a professional degree and is several years into her career, the HS section is probably less relevant for her.

        2. legalchef*

          I think that’s it, that it is the same form for all positions and applicants.

    9. H.C.*

      #1: Sometimes you can use former co-workers who are more senior than you (esp those who have trained you and/or can vouch for your work to some degree) or your supervisor’s bosses. In either case, give them a heads up about the reference request, as well as a note on the application about their exact working relationship with you.

      #2: I’d list out the four titles separately, with an emphasis of the greater responsibility part. As far as how far back to go, I would say only as long as those positions are relevant to the one you’re applying for (e.g. if you’re applying for a legal position – no need to include the part-time retail job you had in college).

      #3: It really shouldn’t, since it is totally understandable that you don’t want to jeopardize your current job.

      #4: You can; alternatively, you can order a transcript for yourself to keep on file for this & future applications that may ask for HS info.

      #5: I would list them out again, since whoever’s evaluating your job application may not have access and/or time to review your cover letter as well.

      1. legalchef*

        There is no one more senior than me except my current supervisor, and no one trained me except me (including my former supervisor… cough.). My former supervisor’s boss is the former unit director I mentioned, and I don’t want to use him because I am still here.

      1. ChrysantheMumsTheWord*

        What about explaining why you only have one supervisor reference and that your current employer does not know you are looking? A good hiring manager will be understanding and may be able to supply you a workaround.

        My current job required 3 supervisor references. Because my prior position was over 10 years, my most recent and third supervisor was my current employer at the time and I did not want them contacted. I explained this to the hiring manager – she let me use a former colleague for the third reference and I was good to go!

        1. zora.dee*

          don’t worry about explaining it on this application, though. Seriously, this is probably only going to get a cursory glance anyway. They won’t really look closely at what you put down for references until they get to that point of the process. Just that there is SOMETHING in those fields is good enough for right now.
          WHEN you get to that part of the process, you will be able to explain it to the hiring manager directly.

      2. zora.dee*

        Ignore the “Supervisor” part. I know, you are nervous that they’ll be mad, but this is just the reality of your situation, so try not to worry about it too much.

        Put your former supervisor, and then 2 other people who can speak to your work, peers are fine. If they are at all interested in you they are probably not going to throw out your whole application because you dont have 3 supervisors listed.

        When (being positive!) you get to the interview/references part of the process, they might ask you again, for more supervisors, but at that point you will have the opportunity to explain the situation and if they are at all reasonable they will understand.

        I know you’re a lawyer, so your instinct is to be super literal, but really, take some of the things on this application with a grain of salt. ;o) The application is the same for all positions in their firm, so they don’t all apply to you.

        Good luck!!

    11. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Giving that level of detail is (a) really difficult and (b) probably not useful to the hiring company. I’ve considered lodging all my info w/ NCEES’s records system to make it easier to apply for engineering licensure in other states and tracking continuing education. The level of detail required actually put me off as it asks one to start with the first job after high school. One of these days I’m going to tackle it again, but, in the meanwhile, I can’t imagine doing that level of detail for anything less than that.

  7. bassclefchick*

    You guys! I have a job! It’s a permanent job too. I got the verbal offer this morning and will get the written offer sometime today. I’ll be at an assisted living facility as the rehab admin assistant. I’m SO excited! Thanks for all the encouragement and advice. I start on the 11th, so one more week to goof off.

    4. Not-So-Sad Grad*

      Congratulations and big hugs! You’re doing extremely important work and will make a huge difference in the lives of elderly people and their families. Thanks in advance for devoting your career to the service of others.

    5. Betty Sapphire*

      Congratulations! My boyfriend works at an assisted living facility. He absolutely loves working with the clients. Enjoy!

    11. Christopher Tracy*

      Congrats! You’ve been searching for some time, and I’m glad you stuck with it because look how it paid off. :)

    17. bassclefchick*

      Thanks, everyone! This has been the longest stretch of temping in my life and although I really loved my agency, I am SO GLAD I’m done with that. Bonus part – I’ll be making more money than I was at my last assignment! Plans for next week? Finish bingeing on Orange is the New Black! LOL

  8. Grad school hopeful*

    I need some advice on the grad school admissions process. I graduated from undergrad 2 years ago and have been working full time since. I’ve recently decided I’m ready for grad school and am planning on apply to health care administration programs this winter to start next fall. However, the programs I’m interested in require applicants to have taken statistics. I took stats related and based classes for my business degree but I don’t have any stats courses on my transcript. (Unless an AP stats class that my college accepted for math credit would count, which seems unlikely.) Do I just need to take an undergrad stats class as a non degree student? Would doing it online (at an accredited non profit university) not be taken as seriously as doing it in person? Or would a community college class work?

    1. Megs*

      That seems like something specific to the programs you’re applying for – can the admissions office help?

      1. really*

        You usually have to actually apply before they will tell you what will or won’t count.

        1. Stephanie*

          Eh, not necessarily. At one point, I was looking at grad programs in Y (I majored in X, a related field). The graduate admissions coordinators I spoke to were pretty straightforward about if things would or wouldn’t count. Key is just to ask far enough in advance. Most coordinators I picked up were pretty friendly and wanted to ensure you submitted the strongest application.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            This. I was looking into getting a Masters in Business Continuity, Security, and Risk Management, and the admissions coordinator went line by line through the requirements with me to make sure my application would stand a chance.

      2. Marillenbaum*

        As someone who used to work in admissions–if the admissions office can’t help, check with the university’s registrar’s office. Often, they are the ones who make the final determination of credit.

    2. really*

      It is possible that they will accept what you took for business school. They will look at your prior course work and will either accept you without reservation, accept you provisionally, or reject you out right. If you get a provisional acceptance you will be told what you need and you will either have to take it before you start your program or could take it at the beginning of your program.

    3. Stephanie*

      I’d go talk to the admissions coordinator for the program and explain your situation. Based on what’s required for the program, they’ll give you an idea if your stats background is sufficient.

    4. blackcat*

      Email someone in the departments you are applying to–there should be some way to do it. If your college accepted the AP credit, it may very well count for some programs. Otherwise, I’m sure taking a community college or online-non-profit stats class would work.

    5. Pam Adams*

      At my university, a 3 or better on the AP Statistics test counts as completing a Statistics course. You might still want to take a community college stats class to refresh.

    6. Kelly L.*

      I see this exact situation often, and a lot of times people will just take it at a community college.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        I’m in a different field, but I was able to take a prerequisite class for my graduate degree at a community college (and online) without issue.

          1. higheredrefugee*

            This is incredibly common in graduate programs, especially specifically for stats. The Admissions Coordinator in either the graduate studies office or the department will be able to answer this question for you. Some colleges will want that class completed before you apply, others will be okay with applying first but likely no decision (or a conditional one) until the grade is submitted to them. But having the grade in hand with application improves your chances at any scholarship money or TA positions or the like.

    7. KL*

      Does your transcript show that you were given credit for the AP class? That may be enough to explain why you did not take a statistics class as an undergraduate student.

      I used to work in graduate admissions, and here is what we would tell students when they came to us with these questions. Contact your program. Most departments/programs have a graduate coordinator and graduate coordinator’s assistant and the assistant is normally the one “in the know”. Explain your question and he/she will normally let you know. That being said, if neither person replies, I’d think long and hard about joining that program. Some department may look at your situation and say you’ll need to take an extra class or two to make sure you’re up to speed.

      1. KL*

        I forgot to add one thing – make sure you contact them, be specific about your question. Don’t just ask if you ill or won’t be accepted because you’re missing that requirement. That’s usually when they pull out the standard “you must apply before any decision can be made” answer. Explain that you don’t have a the statistics class because you had AP credit, and ask is you need to take a statistics course to make you a stronger candidate.

        1. Grad school hopeful*

          This is really helpful language! Thanks KL and everyone else for your advice, it making me feel a lot better about my undergrad self thinking that never taking another math class sounded like about the best thing ever :)

          1. Anxa*

            Also, make sure that even if AP Stats counts as a stats class, that it hasn’t ‘expired.’

            This may not apply for your graduate program, but I’ve encountered many where you have to have taken pre-reqs within the past 5 or 7 years (although this mostly for science/allied health, I think).

    8. NASA*

      My program gave a conditional acceptance for our statistics class. The Masters in HC Administration was our sister program. I’d say 90% of us needed statistics and we all took the undergrad class. I went to school full time, so it was easier to just take it on campus. Do whatever is easiest for you (be in online or at a CC)!

    9. Liana*

      I ran into something similar when I was considering grad school – tons of grad programs want people to have taken statistics (I was looking at MSW programs and even they wanted stats). All of the admissions officers I spoke to said that you could either a) take it as a non-degree student, or b) do it online. Nobody seemed to particularly care which option, as long as you have it. I don’t know about community college, but in all fairness, I never asked.

      Seriously, I’d go with whatever the most convenient and/or cheapest option is for you – I’m pretty sure most programs aren’t going to care where you took the class, as long as you have it on your transcript.

      1. Vulcan social worker*

        MSW programs have required research classes. I still remembered how to do algebra and I’d done very well in stats as an undergrad, but people who didn’t struggled in research. I had an old-school professor who made us show our calculations by hand to show we understood what we were doing and didn’t let us just plug everything into Excel. Having gone to high school during a time when you only got to use a graphing calculator for higher math, not a basic calculator in everyday math, this was no hardship, but some of my classmates groaned about this quite a bit. Social workers are not known for our quantitative skills. I like math and stats.

        1. Liana*

          That’s interesting about the research classes, although it makes sense now that you mention it! I actually don’t mind math, or quantitative analyses in general, so I think stats won’t be too much of an issue for me, but I was definitely not expecting to run into that requirement when I started looking at schools.

    10. Ultraviolet*

      It’s a really good idea to ask someone at each program about this! Find the grad admissions coordinator at each place (in your prospective department, not the university as a whole) and email them. Be specific in your question though. It sounds like your question would be, “I took X and Y business classes, which are based on stats, but not an actual stats class. I also have college credit for the AP stats exam. Would my application still be considered? Or would it be declined outright for not meeting the stats class requirement?” You could additionally ask, “All other things being equal, would taking a stats class this fall before applying strengthen my application?” but there’s a bigger chance they won’t want to comment on that part, so be sure to include the first question.

      Also, health care administration is really far from my field, so I wanted to check: when the application instructions say you must have taken stats, is it obvious what level class they’re talking about? Is it a class in the math department, or a specialized one in health-related undergraduate programs? A math department usually has at least two different levels of stats class, so you’d want to know which one is required by the grad programs in order to guess whether your AP credit and business courses are equivalent. Apologies if this question is totally off-base.

    11. Anon Moose*

      I’m going to grad school in a few months! For my program, there was an economics requirement. I had the requirement, but they did admit people who did not and now they have an online class for people to complete before they matriculate. They also fielded a ton of questions about this during the admissions process. Bottom line, online or community college should be ok BUT talk to each program you’re thinking of applying to about it. If your business classes count, you can maybe address it in an “other” section on the application. Or say “I plan to take X class at Y place if accepted to meet the requirement.”
      But talk to the admissions staff. You’re not the first person with this question and it doesn’t reflect badly on you at all. You want to make sure your application is the strongest it can be, and they actually want that too!

    12. W.Irving*

      In my professional experience, most admissions offices will review your transcripts for you and let you know what you may be missing before you apply. In the grad admissions office in which I worked, we accepted AP credit – pending that you received a minimum score that we stipulated – to meet our requirements. The process may be different at the schools to which you are applying, but it never hurts to ask.

      Something to note, though: more often than not AP’s (and transfer credits) don’t show up on official transcripts. I recommend keeping a copy of your unofficial transcript handy for situations like this.

  9. Megs*

    I work in a professional open-office situation. One of my coworkers has been taking 20-30 minute plus breaks without marking it on our shared timesheet. We’re all hourly – he’s been working about 7-7.5 hours a day, which technically means one paid 15-minute break. I noticed this on accident a couple of days ago and observed happening yesterday as well (“amusingly” he just clocked in and promptly left the room for going on 7 minutes now). Our manager isn’t in the room with us so would never be aware of this unless I bring it to his attention. It doesn’t impact my work at all, but I am one of three pseudo team leads and am irritated with someone abusing the very generous freedom they give us. Our manager relies on the three of us to let him know what’s going on, but has never said anything about keeping an eye on people’s timesheets. I wouldn’t say anything if he was just taking a lot of short breaks, but these long breaks seem excessive. Should I say something?

    1. Boo*

      Eh, if it doesn’t impact you, I’d leave it alone. I can’t imagine how you’d bring it up in a way which doesn’t make you look a) petty and b) like you have too much time on your hands. For all you know the manager may well be aware anyway.

      1. Megs*

        I don’t want to look petty, but it IS my job to make sure the project is running smoothly and to alert the manager to any issues, so point b isn’t at issue here. And the manager is absolutely not aware of anything. He’s only manager in that he’s the one who talks to the client.

          1. Megs*

            Not really, but that’s the client’s fault, not the team’s (they’ve given us an impossible deadline and moral is not great). I’d say of the team of 25, there’s a good 10 people who are good at their job, five who are mostly useless, and everyone else is in the middle.

    2. legalchef*

      What does “pseudo team lead” mean? Do you have any actual authority over this person? If so, then maybe you can mention to your manager that it seems like he is taking a lot more than his actual allotted breaks, and you are concerned with how this will appear to the rest of the staff, and ask if there was any special arrangement made to allow him to take those breaks.

      If not, I wouldn’t, unless it starts to impact your work. You don’t know what arrangements he might have made with your manager, and if it isn’t actually impact your work then you might just look like you are tattling.

      1. Megs*

        We’re all non-exempt hourly with absolutely no benefits, so while people have freedom in terms of when they work, if they’re clocked in they’re supposed to be working (aside from the 15 minutes). As I said, I wouldn’t care if it was just taking lots of short breaks, but being away from his desk for 45 minutes without clocking out is concerning.

        It’s hard to describe the leadership structure since it’s all rather unofficial. Technically the three of us don’t have different titles or pay – we are all contract-based employees working on a project by project basis. Over the year I’ve been working here, they’ve phased away from having a project manager directly involved in the job and delegated that work to one of the team members. We’re responsible for reviewing everyone’s work, answering questions, deciding when a question needs to be elevated to our client, and letting the project lead know if we’re on-track or if any serious issues come up. So maybe this IS supposed to be my job to let them know about this?

        1. Observer*

          Unless you have been specifically asked to monitor people’s time, don’t. You are not getting any of the perks or pay attached to management, why take on one of the thorniest down-sides.

          If your work or the project were being negatively affected, then that would be a different issue. But, since you say that that’s not the case, stay out of it.

    3. Mike C.*

      It doesn’t impact my work at all,

      Ok, then you’re pretty much done here, unless this –

      relies on the three of us to let him know what’s going on

      means something more that it sounds like it does.

      1. Megs*

        Yeah, maybe I shouldn’t have put it that way. The only reason I care is that we’re the eyes and ears in the room, and it has never been defined what that means. In the year I’ve been here, only two people have been fired, and one of them was on my watch (his work was abysmal and he fell asleep the same day we asked him to fix what he’d been screwing up). I am definitely supposed to tell the manager if people’s work is sub-par, I just don’t know if this counts.

        1. Mike C.*

          Well, is the work sub-par or not? If this person takes 20 minute breaks but gets all their work done then it shouldn’t matter. If they’re not or the work is otherwise sub-par, then focus on that.

          1. Megs*

            His work is kind of bad, but about half the team is kind of bad – we’re drones with law degrees being paid the bare minimum for amazingly tedious work, so the bar is really low (pun intended). I think my resistance to letting this go is that the way I cope with this job is by trying to pretend that quality and integrity matters, but honestly, no one cares.

            2. OhNo*

              I think “kind of bad” plus getting paid for what sounds like a LOT of time that he’s not working qualify for raising it to your boss.

              High performers should get leeway when it’s possible. Good employees should get leeway when it’s possible. People who half-ass their work should not. It sounds like he’s in the last category.

              1. Megs*

                It’s the lots of time that is really raising flags here. We’re really flexible about breaks – if someone wants to get up every hour for five minutes to walk around or pee or take a phone call, I do not care and often do the same myself. It’s the sheer length of time that’s a problem – 45 minutes on Wednesday, 35 and 20 yesterday, 25 today (and it’s not even “lunch” time).

                1. Mike C.*

                  I think reasonable people can disagree, but can you imagine going to your boss over a 20 minute or 25 minute break?

    4. ND*

      This would irritate the crap out of me. I know there’s really no way to address it without starting drama, but…ugh.

      1. Megs*

        Right! I don’t get paid extra to be keeping things running smoothly and it drives me nuts when low performers are essentially paid more for me because of this kind of nonsense. I really wish we didn’t have a shared time-sheet or I hadn’t noticed this. It only came to my attention because he messed up something a couple of days ago and I was waiting for him to come back from “lunch” to deal with it when I realized he wasn’t logging his lunch at all.

        1. Jaydee*

          If you’re going to bring it up, that would be the thing to bring up. “Jane, I wanted to talk to you about a situation with Fergus. Last Friday I was reviewing his memo in the Teapots Inc. and Teapots R Us merger and noticed an error. I tried to discuss it with him right away, but he was at lunch and he hadn’t clocked out. Normally I would assume that was an oversight and not be too worried, but I’ve noticed it’s actually a pattern with Fergus. He’s away from his desk for long periods of time without clocking out. It’s making it harder to get timely responses from him when I need them.”

          I also think it’s a vicious cycle. If contract work pays a pittance, then only lawyers with few other options will do it and those who do it best will soon find other options. Which means the quality of the work will be lower. If the quality of the work is lower, then firms will feel justified in paying a pittance. Which means the quality of the work won’t go up, which means the pay won’t go up.

        2. Undine*

          Ah, but that does affect your work, then. Because you want to be able to schedule around his lunch (when did he leave? will he be back in 30 minutes or in five?) and you aren’t able to. So you can mention that to your boss then, as a “It would be helpful to know Fergus’s schedule, but he hasn’t been clocking out and when I need to talk to him, I don’t know when he’ll be back in the office.” And leave it at that.

        3. Observer*

          That’s a bit of a different thing. The thing you bring to your boss is that you’ve found mistakes and then can’t find him to work on fixing it.

          You are not being paid to be the hall monitor. Don’t take on the job unless you get paid to do it, because it’s a dreary task. As bad as your work is now, it’s going to be even less pleasant if that becomes part of your job.

          On the other hand, not being able to find a co-worker who needs to fix something sounds like the kind of thing you should be bringing up to your boss.

          1. Megs*

            Ooh, very good point. I was so irritated about this dude I didn’t think about possibly being asked to make this a usual thing. I HATE HATE HATE policing grown-ups and definitely wouldn’t want to put a bug in my boss’s ear about it.

    5. A. Nonymous*

      Is he getting his load of the work done? If so then this wouldn’t bother me at all. If you guys are having to pick up the slack then I’d say something. For me it’s pretty cut and dry

    6. animaniactoo*

      Can you indirectly ask your manager if he wants to be notified about something like this?

      “Hey, naming no names, but I’m aware that someone took an extra long break this week without logging out for it. Do you care about this? If I see that kind of thing becoming a pattern, is this something you want me to bring up with you?”

      Be aware that it’s going to be a dynamics issue for you with your two co-workers if they suddenly realize that you’re a little more official than just the pseudo-lead and will report them for stuff like this.

      1. Megs*

        I like your approach. I’m pretty sure most of the team knows I was partially responsible for that one dude being fired, so I’m not too worried about the dynamics. I hate a lot of things about this job, but people are pretty low drama and that’s awesome.

        1. Alston*

          I was in pretty much this exact situation a few years back. Brought it up to the people above me and they told me to tell him to knock it off, but gave me no authority to enforce any consequences. So the dude was better for a couple days and then went back to normal. Basically my bosses weren’t shelling out enough on his salary that they really cared if he was there/productive or not.

    7. Sasha*

      As I sit in my doc review job right now, I second other ppl’s advice to bring it up with the individual reviewer. I presume you are a team lead? This is totally in the realm of team lead duties.

    8. Click*

      Are you close enough to just ask boss in a non detailed way? Something like: “Hey I know we’re supposed to keep you in the loop about team issues. I was curious if that includes how others seem to be managing their breaks and time? I think there’s some unrecorded breaks happening and I’m happy to go into detail if you want, if not I’ll let it go.”

  10. Dawn*

    OK seriously wanting to hear from all sides about this! Hypothetical situation here:

    You’re a hiring manager. You’ve interviewed a good candidate that has the right qualifications, a good attitude, good references, and you think they’d fit in well with the team. However, you then learn (through a due diligence Google search) that the candidate has totaled 5 cars in the last 5 years, and has a caviler attitude about it (think “LOL yeah I’m so clumsy! Ha ha my partner doesn’t let me drive our new car ’cause I’d probably crash it!”)

    Would you then hire the candidate anyway? Job has zero to do with driving, and the only reason you even know about the car crashes is something that came up as part of your due diligence check (like you Googled them and they didn’t have their social media on lockdown and you saw them laughing about it).

    My husband says no, that information shouldn’t affect your hiring and it’s none of your business what they do when they’re not at work. I say that since I learned about it in an innocent way as part of a due diligence check then it absolutely should affect my hiring decision and no, I would not hire them because totaling 5 cars in 5 years plus their caviler attitude about it reflects very badly on them.

    This question came up because we met someone who has done just that- totaled 5 cars in 5 years (their fault each time), and who is completely flippant about it and thinks it’s funny. So I started thinking about whether or not that would factor in a hiring decision for me if I happened to be a hiring manager.

    Super curious to hear what everyone thinks!!!

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think it shows a huge disconnect between actions and consequences, and a lack of responsibility for possible bad outcomes. Just because they haven’t killed or maimed anyone yet doesn’t mean they won’t in their next accident. Some accidents are unavoidable, but this person seems to think it’s cute that they are reckless with their two-ton machine. I’d probably not hire them for anything with deadlines or responsibilities, which is most everything I can think of. Backup fry cook, maybe.

    2. EmilyG*

      I wouldn’t hire this person because they’re demonstrating such a cavalier attitude about other people’s safety… even if alcohol isn’t involved, and I would suspect it is.

      1. Dawn*

        I have good knowledge of the person in question and know that it’s literally *just* carelessness, but for the sake of the thought exercise I’d assume not knowing the cause behind the crashes.

        1. Observer*

          Knowing that it’s just carelessness actually makes it worse, in this case. If it was alcohol there might be a reasonable presumption that this person won’t drink on the job, so his alcohol problem MIGHT not affect you. But, if he’s just a careless idiot who doesn’t understand or that his carelessness is putting people at risk, I wouldn’t trust his ability to act responsibly and carefully.

          Character matters.

    3. CMT*

      I think you’re absolutely allowed to use any information you find, even if it isn’t immediately relevant to the job. And particularly in this case, I think it would be a big negative for this candidate.

      1. Grumpy*

        Not always. In my world “Goooling” a candidate would be a background search without consent.

        1. CMT*

          Well, it may be against some ridiculous company policy, but it’s certainly not illegal.

          1. Rowan*

            I don’t think having a policy against it is ridiculous at all. What if you learn that the candidate is gay? Or pregnant? Or was diagnosed with depression? In the US, those are all categories legally protected against discrimination in hiring. You can’t un-know what you learned, and now the candidate can argue that you didn’t hire them because of it. It’s the same reason why it’s not a good idea (or illegal?) to ask questions about those areas in the interview.

            I’d actually love to see Alison weigh in on googling candidates or employees.

            2. CMT*

              Well, if you interview somebody in person, you’re going to find out which protected class their in, anyway. It’s pretty much impossible not to. So as long as you don’t make your hiring decision based on that information, why would it matter?

              1. Rowan*

                How would you know someone’s religion, sexuality, or complete health status from an interview, unless you’re asking extremely-dubious-maybe-illegal questions?

                2. CMT*

                  You’re being overly cautious here. The law doesn’t prevent employers from *knowing* these things, just basing hiring decisions on them.

                3. Honeybee*

                  As Alison pointed out you’d already know (perceived) race and (perceived) gender and gender expression; you might also have some (perceived) religious information (e.g., a Muslim woman wearing hijab or a Sikh man wearing a Dastaar).

        2. Liana*

          … No, it’s definitely not. Legally speaking, Googling a candidate and doing an unauthorized background search are not the same thing at all. Your company may have a (ridiculous) policy against it, but it’s not the same thing.

          As for Dawn’s particular example, I honestly don’t think I’d factor it into my consideration of the candidate if the job has nothing to do with driving. Not everyone is a good driver, and it may be that the candidate is one of those people who is just a bad driver, and hopefully has taken steps in his/her life to ensure they drive as little as possible. I’d file this under “annoying, but not relevant”.

          1. higheredrefugee*

            I would give the benefit of the doubt that the candidate’s cavalier attitude might be covering up embarrassment. I mean seriously, I deal with my embarrassment by not talking about it, but everyone functions differently.

            That said, adding questions to reference checks about how a candidate deals with mistakes (do they accept accountability) and feedback might have helped you know whether it is just this topic or a general attitude.

          2. Observer*

            It’s kind of hard to buy that line if he’s totaled **5** cars, and laughs about it.

    4. ZSD*

      Assuming the totaled cars are recent, then I wouldn’t hire them. However, if what you’re seeing is *old* social media, and it’s been four or five years since they last had an accident that you know of, then I’d give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they’ve grown up and shaped up.

    5. really*

      This would certainly affect how I thought of the candidate. But I would suggest going back to the references and ask how the candidate dealt with mistakes or pushback. I worked with a guy who was of the no harm no foul school of thought and that drove me crazy.

      1. Jennifer*

        Oh, this is a very good point. You need to find out if it’s a sign of other bad traits in other areas, or if you’re hiring Stephanie Plum.

    6. Mike C.*

      This whole “reflects very badly on them” thing doesn’t make any sense to me, because it has absolutely nothing to to do with your job and modern cars are trivially easy to total.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yeah–totaled doesn’t necessarily mean busted up into a million pieces–AFAIK, it just means the insurance company thinks it’s more cost-effective to replace it than to fix whatever’s wrong with it. I’ve had friends whose cars became “totaled” with what looked like pretty minor damage–it’s just the car wasn’t worth much to begin with.

        1. Manders*

          That’s a really good point. There’s a huge difference between an entry-level employee who keeps having cheap cars written off after minor accidents and an executive who smashes up his brand new sports cars so badly they aren’t cost-effective to repair.

          1. Mike C.*

            The other thing to note is that those high end cars are going to be even more expensive to repair than normal because small production runs mean higher part prices, higher costs because of the badge itself (compare otherwise identical Audi and VW parts) and higher end cars are a lot less reliable than a mass produced Toyota or Honda.

      2. Stephanie*

        I agree. My mom had a few years where she had a higher-than-average accident rate–a couple she was at fault, but not all. It’s pretty easy to get into a car accident where I live–speeding is the norm, signage is sometimes not great, and there are pretty lax distracted driving laws. Hell, I almost go into one a couple of weeks (I wasn’t at fault–someone tried to switch lanes and didn’t see me). If this person’s job involved being a delivery driver, sure. But for a desk job, that’s unfair.

      3. Jadelyn*

        I’d be less worried about how badly he actually crashed and the level of damage – what worries me about this is the careless attitude. I wouldn’t let this be the one thing that turns me off the candidate, but as “really” said a few comments up, I’d be pushing his references pretty hard on his attitude toward mistakes, his conscientiousness and such. It could be that he’s a careless nitwit off the clock but super conscientious and careful when he’s at work, and in that case, sure, crash your cars all you like on your own time. I’d just want some reassurance that his “lol whatever” attitude toward that is not typical of his attitude toward other serious things.

          1. CMT*

            I don’t buy the argument that it doesn’t apply to the job. Somebody’s cavalier attitude will show up at work, whether it’s applied to their multiple car accidents, or the TPS report.

            1. Mike C.*

              Why? There are certain things in my own life that I’m cavalier about and others that I’m not. I’m certain that true for your own life. Why wouldn’t it be true in this example as well?

            2. Honeybee*

              That’s not necessarily true though. Number one, you don’t know why the candidate has a cavalier attitude – it could be a defense mechanism. Number two, just because he has a cavalier attitude in one area doesn’t mean he has it in another. I might use looser written English on a message board out of habit, but that doesn’t mean I can’t write a memo, for example. I wouldn’t want people to use my tweets as a writing sample when the two have nothing to do with each other.

    7. Manders*

      I’m a terrible driver and I totaled a car in a really bad crash when I was in high school, and now I work at a law firm that handles car accident cases. So I wouldn’t say that joking about bad driving skills is enough to prove that someone will be bad at a job that doesn’t involve driving.

      I joke sometimes about how bad I am at driving and the various car-related mishaps that have happened to my family (crashes, fires, and bears, oh my–none of our cars go quietly into the good night). BUT I would be wary of someone who is cavalier about costing someone else money or hurting people. Joking or making light of that could be a sign of a larger lack of judgement or empathy.

    8. Rowan*

      I’m not sure googling someone should be a standard part of the hiring process. You’re too likely to learn something that puts the potential new hire in a protected class (sexuality, medical status, whatever), and then it could be argued that info influenced your hiring decision.

      1. Honeybee*

        First of all, everyone is in a protected class. The law states that you can’t discriminate on the basis of certain protected classes – so for example, under the law, not hiring someone because they are a man is the same as not hiring someone because they are a woman (both are illegal). It doesn’t only protect people in marginalized groups.

        Secondly, simply knowing that someone is in a marginalized group (or not) is not reason enough for them argue that it influenced your hiring decision. Or rather, a person could argue it, but they’d have to provide evidence for the argument for it to get any traction. Simply knowing someone’s gender or race doesn’t mean you used the information in hiring; if that was the case, nobody could ever not hire people…in general, but especially not women or minority racial/ethnic group members.

        I don’t think employers should refrain from looking up any information on candidates simply because they might run across some protected class information on candidates.

    9. Pwyll*

      I think it’d depend on if there is a possibility of the employee ever needing to drive for the job. If so, it’d inform my decision, but I don’t think it’d be the only consideration.

    10. wet gremlin*

      I likely wouldn’t hire, from worry that:

      1) They’d be as careless with company property

      2) They cannot follow directions (for example: the rules of the road)

      3) They do not learn from their mistakes

      4) They lack any discretion

      1. wet gremlin*

        *This is of course based on the “5 cars in 5 years” aspect, plus the cavalier attitude. A couple of bad accidents? That could happen to anyone.

      2. Mike C.*

        Wait, how do you know all that about the person and that it applies to every other aspect in life? For instance, if they “cannot follow the rules”, how is it that they aren’t in prison for multiple felonies? That they even made it to the interview to begin with?

        Everything else about this person is perfectly fine, so they indeed can follow directions, show discretion and so on. Otherwise the hypothetical interview would have been a complete mess, right?

        1. wet gremlin*

          Like I said, it’s one of several concerns that would jump out at me in this situation. (The alternative explanations for such a high rate of serious accidents would not improve the candidate’s standing: that they either don’t pay attention or that other people are below their concern.) Sure, you could nitpick apart any one of these concerns, but all of them in concert are what would steer me away. The cavalier attitude would be the killer. And of course, it’s an extreme hypothetical the way it was posted, so let’s not go into the weeds.

          1. Honeybee*

            I think Mike C.’s point is that all 4 of those concerns may or may not be true, but you have no way of deriving that information simply from the fact that the person crashed 5 cars and seems cavalier about it in front of other people on social media. I don’t think that’s nitpicking at all – that’s examining them on face. It’s drawing, IMO, potentially faulty conclusions from a limited and inadequate amount/type of data – how they drive is not necessarily indicative of any of the four things listed above.

    11. Miss Elaine E-Us*

      While the role may not require driving, how much responsibility does it involve. If he is that flippant about totaling five cars in five years, how flippant would he be if he killed/injured a patient/leaked sensitive information/accidentally created a hazardous workplace situation? Would he treat company/client property as cavalierly as he apparently treats his car (and the people in it)?
      In my very humble opinion, that’s what due diligence is for — to uncover those issues that a resume and interview process don’t show.
      Just my two cents.

    12. bb-great*

      I wouldn’t consider the car accidents one way or the other–there are a lot of variables there–but having such a cavalier attitude AND sharing it on unlocked social media is questionable judgment imo, and that would give me pause.

    13. LCL*

      Does this job you are hiring for involve driving (you said no), machine operation, forklift operation, any kind of working with heavy machinery or tools? If not, I would hire him. Easy for me to say, he wouldn’t get hired for my work group because driving is part of the job.
      But based on what the majority of people here are saying, I think he should do something about his facebook page because many people would hold that against him.

    14. LBK*

      I wouldn’t hold that specific information against him, but I would be extremely wary throughout the process of other signs of related behavior (cavalier attitude about risk, recurring dramas, etc.).

      1. Mike C.*

        Yes, this is key here. You can’t use the driving history as a substitute for actually checking this employee out. Maybe they just suck at driving.

    15. animaniactoo*

      I’d have a bad taste in my mouth, but I’d give them the opportunity to correct it.

      “I came across this while doing a little more research on you. From your comments you seem to think it’s not a big deal, can you explain why you feel that way or have taken that tack in talking about it?”

      1. Mike C.*

        Wait, seriously? As the employer, how is that any of your concern? That sounds like a really personal question.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Because it’s a question of your judgment, situationally. Which is important to me as your employer.

          How you handle having it brought up also tells me something about you as an employee. There will be times that you will be in potentially embarrassing work situations. And if you’re going to have your social media that open, you better be prepared to get questions about it.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I don’t think there’s any way to ask that though without it sounding really … off. I think it’s fine to pass judgment on it, but I don’t think it’s an employer’s place to demand explanations from a job candidate about behavior in their private life.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Hmmm, I wasn’t thinking about it as “demanding” an explanation, vs exploring it. How about putting out there as “I’m curious about this if you’re willing to talk with me about it”?

              1. Mike C.*

                I would still just focus on the stuff that actually applies to the job and make a judgement from there. I feel like folks are falling into this trap that “someone how does X means they’re a bad employee” when X doesn’t really have a lot to do with the job in the first place. It’s a red herring.

                1. Dawn*

                  Yeah, and that’s the argument that my husband has. But to me, it’s a potential reflection on a person’s overall personality. However, I am really appreciating your dissent in this discussion because now I’m really wondering which side of the fence I’m on!

                2. Wheezy Weasel*

                  I think society is too quick to use proxy methods of determining someone’s ability rather than wanting to find out objectively. There may be some rough correlations between bad credit, some marijuana use, traffic tickets and bankruptcy, but there are plenty of people with a spotless record that are also poor hires. It’s like seeing jobs that say ‘reliable transportation required’ and then asking that as a hiring checkbox question. Is that because too many people were trying to use unreliable transportation as an excuse as to why they weren’t coming in?

                  Does the hiring process really needs to dive into social media to help the internal company people feel better about offering a job to that candidate? I can understand if a person’s posted professional publications which run counter to your own company culture, but Facebook is the land of cat videos and grandma using the Facebook wall instead of a Message to ask if Aunt Sally stopped by yet.

          2. Honeybee*

            This would tell me something about an employer, too, and would make me think twice about accepting a job there. It would be really weird and invasive if an interviewer came to me and asked me about this, as it has absolutely zero bearing on the way I do my job. It’d be one thing if I had, say, lots of pictures of me blackout drunk on social media or lots of offensive or politically charged tweets or something…but my car totaled? And knowing that a potential employer is judging me for it and using it as a way to determine how I handle confrontation? I don’t think I would want to work for that employer. Are they going to be digging through my social media and judging and springing stuff on me like this regularly?

      2. Liana*

        Uhhhhh if an employer brought up something I said on social media and worded it like this, I would be Not Happy. I just don’t see how you could address this with someone without sounding invasive and just … weird.

        I also just don’t see how it’s a big deal. Some people are just bad drivers. It doesn’t make them a terrible person, it just means they shouldn’t drive.

        1. EmmaLou*

          yeah but…. doesn’t it also show that they aren’t very self-aware? I mean…. they are still driving… and thinking it’s funny …. in spite of smashing evidence.

          1. Natalie*

            Eh, assuming this is the US there are a lot of places where people just don’t have a choice. I wouldn’t put too much on the fact that they still drive. And as someone else mentioned, the attitude in social media might be covering up embarrassment or trying to seem less scared than they actually are.

      3. Jaydee*

        I wouldn’t bring it up directly. What the person will hear when you ask that question is, “So I was skimming your Facebook page and now think it’s relevant to grill you about stuff you posted there.” I wouldn’t be surprised if the interviewee ended the interview right then and there.

        What you could do is tailor your questions *about work-related things* to address your concerns. So you could ask him to tell you about a time when he made a significant error and what he did to address it. Or you could describe a past situation where an employee made repeated, careless mistakes that had potentially significant consequences and ask him how he would handle a similar situation if it happened to him. Then you get to see whether the cavalier attitude carries over into the workplace.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          Yes so much to your second paragraph. Those are the types of questions to ask that don’t delve into the candidate’s personal life.

    16. designbot*

      I’d consider this from a different point of view than I’ve seen above–are they your only choice, or are they neck and neck with other candidates? If they are above and beyond the best candidate, then hire them anyway. If you’re looking for reasons to select one person over another, then this could be that thing. Basically sure, consider it, but it’s not a dealbreaker.

    17. Purple Jello*

      Found on social media? You mean like a personal account for friends and family? Wouldn’t someone be more apt to “color” their posts in this type of situation?

      While this would be a red flag for me, if the job doesn’t involved driving, I would check professional references for how this person handles errors on the job.

    18. MsChanandlerBong*

      I wouldn’t use the information in my hiring decision. Social media profiles are a curated view of a person’s life. He may be saying, “Oh, I’m so clumsy” in response to a comment about the accident, but he may be mortified on the inside.

    19. Pennalynn Lott*

      I’m a little late to the party, and haven’t read the other comments, but one of my best friends in college was like this. Very clumsy, very “spatially impaired”. Honestly, she should have had her DL taken away. In the 2 years I knew her, she caused at least a half-dozen [minor] accidents with other cars and had twice that number of “single vehicle” accidents (i.e., backing into a light pole in a parking lot). [She also regularly had a bruise on her left cheek from where she whacked herself in the face with the receiver when answering the phone. Uh, and she also burned her ear once when she was ironing and the phone rang. . . and she put the iron to her ear.]

      BUT we worked together in a payroll-processing company and she was a FANTASTIC employee. Attention to detail, going over-and-above her required job duties, a hit with all the clients. She was so good that she was recruited away by Oracle to work for their consulting arm.

      So while I’d never let her drive me anywhere, I would certainly be happy to hire her as long as the work didn’t involve anything physical, like properly packing fragile equipment or efficiently loading a delivery truck.

      1. Natalie*

        That’s a good point. I have a friend who, as a friend, is just a complete space cadet. But she’s incredibly good at her job and extremely diligent about the things she space-cadets about in her personal life.

    20. Not So NewReader*

      Real life situation. A government agency that I know of had an audit for insurance purposes. If you have never seen one of these there is NOTHING that goes unchecked. When the results came back, they had to set up to have everyone’s driving record checked, even if the person was not driving for work purposes. Having a bad driving record was grounds for immediate dismissal is what the insurance company and DMV told the agency. Yes, it was irrelevant that the person did not drive during their work day.

      While I don’t agree with this, it seems to be an issue. In your hypothetical there are lots of variables that would have to weigh in. I think that checking with company policy would be an order, as opposed to a manager just deciding randomly what to do without checking in with others. Notice I am not agreeing with this, but unfortunately, this is the world we have.

    21. Jen*

      Didn’t read all the responses but this may have been said- is it possible that the vast majority of these accidents are not the candidates fault? My dad had 4 totaled cars in a span of 5-6 years, and NONE were his fault. I could see how after a tree falls on your car for the second time, or someone rear ends you for the 3rd time, you get a little flippant about things. “Another day, another call to the appraiser to see how much they’ll give me…”

      Devils advocate…

    22. EmmaLou*

      Total total’d five cars? In how five years? Destroyed them? That’s a lot of cars. In 30 years, we’ve only had two cars totaled and they were both out of our control (someone ran a red light and t-boned him and the other was sliding on ice.) Now he has bumped into things more than I have: concrete posts, curbs, carport post, but that’s just because he drives more than I do, I think. We’ve been rear-ended, sideswiped, backed into, but nothing else totaled. Is the person exaggerating his/her stories for effect? Golly.

    23. Kimberlee, Esq*

      I would not factor it into consideration, because:

      1) I would presume that nobody got hurt in those accidents (people are seldom flip about car crashes where people were seriously injured,), and
      2) The job doesn’t involve driving and there’s no reason to assume that someone who is bad at driving is bad at anything else in particular.

      Some people are just bad at some things. It’s like not hiring an accountant because you found out they’re bad at coding HTML. I, as others have mentioned, would assume that this person just doesn’t drive that much.

    24. Betty (the other Betty)*

      “totaling 5 cars in 5 years plus their caviler attitude”

      I’m not sure you can rely on public social media posts to tell you that their attitude is cavilier or to help you discern how someone really feels about something. I can see someone making a joke about this on facebook while feeling remorseful and being apologetic to their partner in private.

      So I guess I think that if I discovered this by googling I might not weigh the information very heavily in my decision making. If, however, I called the person’s references and their former manager told me about this as an example of the potential hiree’s general attitude, I’d reconsider hiring.

    25. Library Director*

      I wouldn’t consider it, but then again I had 3 totaled cars in 3 years. The first someone ran a stop sign and t-boned my passenger side. The person in the passenger seat was in traction for months. I had a broken arm. Because I didn’t immediately go into a full explanation people assumed I was at fault.

      The second car was on an icy road. I was driving at an appropriate speed f a r behind a car. The person in front decided to slam on his breaks and make a left turn. Even with the precautions I took I still hit the car.

      The third time I was exiting a drive with a blocked view of the street. I was inching out to clear the road when someone pulled out from the curb without checking and hit me. Because I was entering the road I was considered at fault.

      Cavalier attitude sounds like my approach. I can wallow or laugh. I choose to laugh.

    26. Honeybee*

      If I was already going to hire the candidate then absolutely, I’d still hire them. I fail to see how their having totaled 5 cars in the last 5 years has anything to do with their ability to do the job. And the reaction could seem flippant for any variety of reasons, especially if I found it on social media. Their social media reaction might not even reflect how they actually feel about it – social media is a highly curated outward rendering of how we’d like others to see us, not necessarily our actual deepest thoughts. But even if it is, that could be their outward way of dealing with the stress of having to replace 5 cars in 5 years (that sounds expensive).

      To be quite frank, if I had just totaled my fifth car in an at-fault accident in that many years, I think I’d be joking about it with friends, too, because joking about it would be my way of letting off steam and psychologically dealing with the incidents. I joke about serious things all the time, because humor is how my mind processes stressful things sometimes. It wouldn’t mean I was cavalier with my belongings or with my money, nor would it have any bearing on the way I would treat my employers’ belongings. And frankly, I’d be really irritated if a hiring manager stumbled across something so minor as my personal reaction to a personal event on Facebook or something, and didn’t hire me because of that. It’s one of the reasons I keep my social media as locked down as possible, because you never know what minor, completely unrelated thing will tip someone over the edge.

  11. AnAppleADay*

    Are there any reasons for me TO discuss my pending bankruptcy with my supervisor? It’s the result of being disabled followed by a divorce and not making enough to cover my basic needs for me and my child. Any reasons to NOT mention it? I don’t plan to discuss it at this time but I suspect at least one creditor contacted my place of employment.

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      Only mention it if you will need some accommodations (e.g., time off to be in court). Unless your boss is a personal friend, best to keep this to yourself.

    2. Amy M in HR*

      An someone in HR, I do not see how this would be relevant information for your supervisor. Your HR and payroll departments will be notified by the courts (because if you are on any kind of repayment plan usually your wages will be garnished), however, I have never forwarded any of this information on to supervisors or managers as it is none of their business.
      Also, creditors should only be talking to HR, not your supervisor, and again that is not information that HR should pass on to anyone.

    3. Mononymous*

      Be careful if you decide to change jobs, or even roles in your current company, if your work is the type to require credit checks upon hire. I know of someone whose boss encouraged her to apply for an open internal position, who then disclosed that she had some credit issues due to a divorce, and asked whether that would pose a problem for a background check if she did go for it. She was told it would be no problem, applied, got the offer, but then surprise! She wasn’t eligible for the job due to the credit issues. The problem was, now that the company/HR was officially aware of the credit issues, she wasn’t eligible for her old role, either. Yikes. (They ended up putting her into some other admin-type role where the credit issues weren’t a conflict so she still had an income, since it was basically their fault that she got into that mess, but it was no longer in her field/career path. I’m sure it had some long-term negative effects on her career.)

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        What the what?! They actually did this to a current employee who had already clearly proven herself responsible, at least enough to recommend for another position? They wouldn’t take her divorce into account? Your poor friend – that’s a lousy company to work for.

        1. Mononymous*

          Yeah, it sucked. :( It’s a highly regulated industry, so I think there were regs or laws of some kind involved once the credit stuff was known officially by HR–but the manager should NOT have assured her that everything would be fine when it clearly was not.

    4. CAA*

      If you hold a U.S. government security clearance, then you are required to notify your company’s security officer. Otherwise, no, you shouldn’t mention it.

      As a manager, this is not something I would want to know about my employees. People do tell me things like this, and I always feel so awkward. After a few go-rounds, I’ve finally landed on a response of expressing sympathy and recommending that they call the EAP, while emphasizing that I will never know if they took that advice or not.

  12. Victoria, Please*

    Does anyone have a treadmill desk? Do you like it? Wish you hadn’t got it? What kind? Please tell!

    1. Manders*

      I set one up at home and I LOVE it. I made it myself with a craigslist-scavenged treadmill and a board C-clamped to the arm bars to hold the keyboard and the mouse. The monitor is bolted to the board and the tower sits on the floor. It’s not the most elegant setup but I think I only spent somewhere in the $100-$200 range for everything except the computer itself.

      I mostly use mine for writing and playing video games. One thing that can be tricky is that if I get really in the zone playing a game, I might walk for an hour or two and only notice afterwards that my knee or hip is stiff. The treadmill has a different sort of “give” than a sidewalk or a dirt path and you do need to take breaks to stretch and take good care of your joints if you use one. I also do sometimes long for those fancy setups where you can swing in an exercise ball to sit down when you need to–I have to switch to a laptop when I need to sit down.

      Mine is also in the kitchen, which means that if I’m standing on it but not walking it’s very tempting to wander away and grab snacks. There’s something about sitting down that makes it a little harder to get distracted by other things in your house, I think. It might be different in an office setting.

      1. Manders*

        Physical health improvements: I’ve noticed much less back pain, even when using my sitting desk at work, since I started using the treadmill regularly. I think my core strength may be a bit better. My endurance for standing and walking does seem to be slightly improved, but I was already walking at least 3 miles on some steep hills every day so I was already in decent shape. I haven’t noticed any weight loss, but I changed nothing else about my lifestyle when I changed my desk–if that’s what you’re looking for, you’d probably need a higher intensity exercise program or an aggressive diet. It’s an excellent mood booster, I got through some tough times by cranking up Fallout 4 and power-walking for a while.

    2. Friend of Mine Does*

      I don’t have one, but my friend does and loves it. She said it took some getting used to and found a few things:
      1. She had to drink a lot more water than before
      2. When she got it, her instinct was to go too fast.
      3. She finds some tasks are not as conducive to using it (from a concentration perspective, or at least for her). I think she either stops the treadmill or goes elsewhere for those tasks.

    3. NoTreadmillDesksForMe*

      My former employee offered them. I tried one once and walking on it while reading or typing on my laptop made me feel very dizzy/car-sick. Normally running on a treadmill doesn’t bother me, but trying to walk even slowly on one while typing was not good for me. Other people were able to use them just fine. I recommend testing one out before purchasing.

  13. Audiophile*

    I posted last week that I lost my job. While I haven’t found a new one yet, I did get quite a few requests for phone interviews and got at least one phone interview done. I think it went pretty well and hope it leads to an in person interview. I have another phone interview scheduled for Tuesday.

    I’ve begun applying for jobs out of state as well, mostly in FL. I have a friend who lives in Fort Myers and a cousin who lives in Tampa. All of the phone interviews have been for jobs in NY though.
    Should I mention in my cover letter for FL jobs that I’ll be in the area at the end of the month?

    1. ZSD*

      Good luck with the interviews!
      Hm. I’d lean toward mentioning that you’ll be in town in the cover letters so that they know you can come in for an interview, but I’m ambivalent.

    2. A. Nonymous*

      Good luck!

      I don’t think that it’d be a big deal. If I were looking thru applicants I would just take it as an “of course” they would be able to be in the area and working when I needed them since they applied for the job.

    3. Florida*

      I would mention it. You don’t need to mention that you will be visiting friends. Just say that you will be in the area from these dates.
      Someone might want to schedule it then, so they can save money on flying you in.

      1. Audiophile*

        I started mentioning it in a few cover letters.

        I’m definitely not senior enough to warrant being flown in.

  14. DropTheDatabase*

    How can you if you’re just not suited for something, or if you’re just going through a tough learning curve and need to push through?

    I have been doing database reporting and development for about a year now at a large public university. I have a variety of responsibilities, which include server/system administration, maintaining custom programming integrations, and then some database reporting. I don’t do a lot of straight coding – like writing SQL reports. I enjoy all of my work, but I’m getting really frustrated with the coding portion. I like doing it, and I feel satisfied and accomplished when I complete a report – only to feel crushed when the client comes back to say, “These numbers don’t match what I have, “ or something else is wrong, and we go through a few rounds of revising the report until we reach a satisfactory outcome. The issues are a mix of my own mistakes, or the client has bad data, or there’s a misunderstanding of the data being reported on, etc.

    I do not have a programming or computer science background – I have an English degree and am just naturally techy. I fell into the database reporting stuff by way of being a support tech in my department. While I have gotten some training from more senior colleagues, they are extremely busy with more complex work, and don’t really have time to give me in-depth training. Most of my knowledge is self-taught, usually through trial and (lots of) error.

    I keep on trying to educate myself, triple check my work, take things slow and pay attention to detail, but I feel like I keep screwing up. So I’m not sure if I’m just unsuited to be a programmer and need to focus on another career path (system/server admin), or if this is normal for a junior programmer, and I just need to persevere. I feel like my bosses are eventually going to get fed up with my mistakes and slow pace. I have always received, and continue to receive, glowing performance reviews, but one client got frustrated with me because of a coding issue and complained to my director, and I don’t want that to happen again. I rarely make mistakes in my other responsibilities, but it feels like with coding, there’s just always something wrong with it – a typo, a validation step I missed, or a different approach I could have taken that would make things better.

    Any insights are most appreciated!

    1. LBK*

      Well, first things first: can you isolate what percentage of these issues are truly just due to your own error? To me, things like the client having bad data or there being a miscommunication about what’s required aren’t your fault, and you shouldn’t be counting those in you “is this the wrong job for me?” calculation. Personal mistakes also tend to stick in your mind much more than anyone else’s, and you remember them more than you remember the times there weren’t any issues. Step back and really look at the pattern – I suspect it’s not as bad as you think.

      That being said, you can also help mitigate the communication issues by asking for clarifications before you run anything. Reporting is one of my core job responsibilities right now, and I rarely run anything just based on the initial request unless it’s extremely simple and explicit. If there’s any aspect of the data where I think “Hmm, do they mean X or Y?” I just go back and ask. It may feel annoying, but it’s much less annoying to ask 100 follow ups beforehand than it is to have to make even 1 correction after.

      1. DropTheDatabase*

        Thank you! I will think about things in that manner. While I do ask some initial questions, I think I’m not asking enough. I think a lot of my own mistakes are coming from making too many assumptions.

        1. LBK*

          And that’s totally understandable, because those times when you are able to just pick up a request as-is and turn it around right away with no questions usually solicits a really good response – I know I love those “Wow! That was so quick, thank you!” emails. It makes you look like a data superhero to be able to take any request and come back with the perfect data set right away, but it’s just not feasible all the time for more complex or vague requests, and it bites you in the butt more often than not unless you’re working with an assumption that you know will be accurate 99% of the time.

      2. Anne S*

        This was going to be my question – I do something like this, and the first question we always ask with these is ‘are we comparing apples to apples? Are we sure this is the same metric we’re looking at?’

        1. LBK*

          Ha, I use the phrase “apples to apples” probably 10 times a day. I hate it because it’s so buzzword-y but it’s so effective and such a necessary consideration when working with data comparisons.

      3. Jadelyn*

        “I rarely run anything just based on the initial request unless it’s extremely simple and explicit.”

        THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. I do a lot of reporting at my job, and people come to me with all kinds of requests. After a handful of “well actually, can you also add XYZ to it?” and “oh, I didn’t mean like that” incidents early on, I developed a habit of having a probing conversation about it when they first submit the request, taking copious notes, and checking back if I run into any other questions during the process. The more you know upfront, the less often you’ll run into issues. (Bad data, on the other hand, there’s not a lot you can do about unless you’ve got control over the data-gathering side of things as well as the reporting side.)

        Also, if you have regular clients, you’ll probably come to anticipate some of their quirks eventually. It took me about a year and a half to get into my “groove” and learn my biggest requestors’ habits and needs. Now, with certain people, they don’t have to get all that specific, because I know what they need the report for and what they’ll want to know for it, so I can even extend their initial request a little to make sure they don’t have to come back asking for another report later. But that’s just a time and practice and people-reading thing.

        You might also consider asking your director if there’s any budget for training and staff development, and if so, would they be willing to pony up for you to take a basic programming course or two at a local community college, or an online school? Just one class can honestly give you a nice basic grounding in principles that will hold true across a variety of coding languages and types of systems, and might help you feel a bit more confident in your work.

        1. LBK*

          That second paragraphs is great and definitely reflects my experience as well – after doing requests for the same people enough times, asking those clarifying questions and remembering what the follow ups usually are, I’m now able to anticipate their needs a lot more frequently and proactively.

          That made me think of another suggestion, which is to tap into the mental database of your coworkers if possible. I have newer coworkers that come to me often and say “Bob sent me an email asking for X – do you know what he means by that?” and generally I do, or at least I know the right question to ask. If you have those same kind of internal resources within your department, definitely leverage them!

    2. Dawn*

      “it feels like with coding, there’s just always something wrong with it”

      Welcome to coding!

      Your letter sounds a lot like you have some imposter syndrome going on around your coding duties since you come from a non-techy background. Seriously, if you are getting glowing reviews and are doing all you can to mitigate mistakes on your end (by going through your code carefully and trying your utmost to understand requirements before you code a product) then don’t worry about little mistakes. Check in with your boss that he/she is happy with your performance, and say that you want to become more confident in your coding abilities then ask if they have any suggestions about how to do that.

      But seriously, don’t worry about it if you’re getting good reviews and most of your clients are happy in the end.

      1. DropTheDatabase*

        Thanks! There’s definitely some imposter syndrome going on, especially since my department merged with another and now I’m surrounded by people with CSE degrees.

    3. addlady*

      How long have you been coding? Mistakes are SO normal when coding.

      Also, if a significant portion is due to bad data, or a misunderstanding–that has everything to do with programming, and nothing to do with you. People aren’t used to thinking in the particular way that data and coding require, and so often give vague criteria where SQL requires mind-numbing specifics. So, something all SQL coders deal with ALL the time.

      1. DropTheDatabase*

        I’d say direct coding experience – maybe a total of 11-12 months. My coding projects are somewhat spaced out between my other duties. I actually started doing this type of work almost 3 years ago, but I have a lot of other things going on as well.

        We definitely have dirty data issues going on. Every time I work on a project, there’s a new and surprisingly data issue I’d never have thought of. :)

          1. J.B.*

            After 9 years I’m still in the learning phase. If you’re not learning anymore it’s time to move on.

            Also to OP: if there’s anyone who can mentor you they can coach you on specific patterns to look for.

      2. addlady*

        Also, remember–your English degree might give you a hand up in communicating with non-techy people. After all, those other people might be good at comp sci, but not so good at bridging the gap between techy and non-techy people. Given that most of your issues are in people not communicating what they want, that gives you an advantage in the long run!

        1. addlady*

          Sorry, I’m not trying to brag, but I guess I am. All I’m TRYING to say is, not everyone who gets a compsci major is brilliant at coding, and not everyone who doesn’t, isn’t. Sounds like you might actually be really good at your job, but don’t realize it because of the label you’re giving yourself.

    4. LadyMountaineer*

      I’m a SQL/Python junkie (basically a data janitor) and quibbling over numbers is ALL DAY EVERY DAY for me and I like it. I hated sys admin work (because it appears to non-tech managers that you “do nothing” and I never was able to get in a groove.) Different strokes for different folks I guess.

      To reduce your frustration tough I would ask users to fill out a report request form (just to think about the data they need like which fields, how they are grouped, totals etc) and include with it the numbers to match to up front and the methodology they use before you even start. I even set that expectation up front “this first pull might be junk” and make sure that they know that THEY have to tell you which records are included that shouldn’t be and which aren’t that should be. I document the heck out of those back-and-forths. Make sure your management knows that they can’t just lob a request to you and leave.

      I also teach SQL at a coding bootcamp at night so let me know if you want some help. :)

      1. DropTheDatabase*

        Thank you! I like the form idea, and also letting them know the first copy of the report is really a first draft. I think most of our clients have an expectation that the first spreadsheet they receive is the OFFICIAL report.

    5. pieces of flair*

      Could you look into opportunities for more formal training in this area? Either a course at the university or some kind of coding workshop? Universities are usually great about staff tuition waivers and supporting professional development in general.

      1. Stephanie*

        This was my thinking as well. Tuition benefits are pretty standard for university employees. If they’re not, could you find a course and propose it as training and development to your boss?

        I’m admittedly not the greatest coder myself. It definitely requires a different way of thinking.

      2. DropTheDatabase*

        Yes, I’ve been doing a lot of online training classes with the support of my manager. I’ll look into taking some courses here at the university. Thank you!

    6. Mike C.*

      I do not have a programming or computer science background

      All this means is that you’re going to have more mistakes and need to catch up a little bit. There is no shame in that, and everyone is going to screw things up programming.

      This reminds me of something my alma mater did in part to vastly increase the number of women who graduate with CS degrees. There’s a mandatory programming course and usually they just put everyone into the same thing, regardless of experience. What they found was that people who had never programmed before were in the same room as those who had been programming for a decade or more, and were getting discouraged at seeing others have it easy that they convinced themselves that “programming wasn’t for them”, and they would leave for other majors.

      The solution was to have “black” and “gold” (school colors) versions of the course. The same materials, lesson plans, exams were given to each, but they were split up by prior experience. Thus if you were new, you saw that everyone else around had to work at it and didn’t convince yourself that “programming wasn’t for you”.

      Same thing here. Just keep at it, ask lots of questions and you’ll get it. It’s a skill like any other.

      1. addlady*

        +1000 if my mother hadn’t been a coder, I never would have been, for exactly this reason. She pressured me into giving it a shot. Otherwise, I would have immediately disqualified myself for not having been a nerd who coded since I was 10. And you know what? Now I’m actually better than some compsci majors, because of my attention to detail. Turns out coding experience isn’t all you need to code. ;)

          1. addlady*

            It definitely feels like a “club”, and you KNOW some people are working hard to play that image up. Although, it’s something I have done myself plenty of times, albeit in different areas.

          2. DropTheDatabase*

            Thank you everyone! Everyone in my dept is pretty nice and willing to help, I just have to work on not being intimidated…they seem to program with such ease and speed, and it’s easy to forget that most of them have been doing it for 10+ years. There’s just a lot of pressure from the clients for fast turnaround times and pristine first drafts, so they don’t have a lot of patience for more junior people.

          3. catsAreCool*

            Interesting article, but I’m female, and from generation X and a computer science major, and I don’t remember people ever saying stuff like not everyone is cut out for computer science.” to me. I’m sure some people looked at me and figured I wouldn’t be all that good at it, but I don’t remember anyone actually saying it.
            Maybe I was just fortunate. My parents always tend to think their kids can do just about anything, and I think I absorbed some of that, so maybe if someone did say that to me, I just rolled my eyes and thought that person didn’t know much.

            1. Paquita*

              I have a AS in Computer Technology and I don’t use it at all. I did finish just so I would have the piece of paper. One of my programming instructors told me that I would not want to program for a living??. He also became a friend and was trying to help me out. He was right. I only decided on that as a major because everyone thinks Computers! Jobs! Money!.

    7. J.B.*

      I have a non-IT background and the coding I do has become the most enjoyable part of my job. A lot of the confidence comes from familiarity with the dataset and having figured out my mistakes and why they were made. I would recommend the following:

      1. Have conversations when a data request is made. Often people want “this thing” but don’t have a lot of perspective on what data there is and specifically what the limitations are.
      2. If this has been done before, get an example so that you can compare your results to it. Where there are differences find out what they are and be proactive about addressing.
      3. Spend some time with the database structure. Which records are parents and which are children? Do some truth testing on the results. If you have access to the data entry screens, did you get all the records you expected or are some key ones left out? How are the records defined? (You can sometimes have problems matching up two similar looking fields that are formatted differently, say extra spaces.)

      Those mistakes you describe are totally normal. You get used to what to look for. At first it’s down the rabbit hole, but then you come up with a sequence of checks to make.

    8. Tau*

      I second it – welcome to coding! Mistakes happen, bugs happen, misunderstandings happen. It is, sad to say, how it works.

      Anecdote time: my very first bug-fix after I started, I screwed something minor up that broke an entire part of the program. It wasn’t caught in testing, and it was only when the client reported errors popping up that we figured out what was happening. Thankfully the product was still in user acceptance testing so I didn’t actually break any real, live systems, but still. I wanted to crawl into a hole and never come back out again. But nobody around me blamed me at all, nor did it come up in my performance reviews. Bugs happen to the best of us.

      Speaking of performance reviews, this:

      I have always received, and continue to receive, glowing performance reviews, but one client got frustrated with me because of a coding issue and complained to my director, and I don’t want that to happen again.

      I would focus VERY STRONGLY on the bit before the “but”. Clients are not in a good position to judge what is or is not good coding, or what is/is not a reasonable rate of mistakes (“any mistake is unreasonable!!”). Your boss is. Your boss is, frankly, in a better position to judge what is/isn’t reasonable for a junior programmer than YOU are! And your boss is giving you glowing performance reviews. That means a lot!

      It sounds like you’re generally in a tough spot because you are working directly with clients and your code is going directly to clients. In general, when it comes to software development, the process looks more like… design -> code -> test -> client (simplifying). Testing should be a separate phase, DONE BY SEPARATE PEOPLE. Good programmers do not necessarily make good testers, and it can be extraordinarily hard to spot mistakes in your own code. And then any complaints of the clients will also go to someone in a support/analysis role, who filters for the relevant details and verifies the problem before sending it on to a dev. But in your situation, it sounds like the roles have been compressed to… you + client… meaning you are missing a lot of the buffers and failsafes there usually are in the process. I don’t know if it’d be feasible to change that via e.g. getting a tester to run through your things before they go to the client, but in any case be aware that that isn’t really typical for dev jobs and may be making your mistakes seem bigger than they should be.

      So, yeah! I don’t know if you’re suited to coding in the sense of whether you’d be happy as a programmer – you have to know that – but none of what you say sounds like you’re doing a bad job at all, and the glowing performance reviews really clinch that.

      1. DropTheDatabase*

        Thank you! Yes, we don’t have a separate testing phase. We don’t really have phases…a project or a report just gets assigned to a person, and you do everything yourself. I usually try to get one of the more senior people to check my work, but often they are too busy.

      2. catsAreCool*

        There are always going to be a few people who aren’t happy no matter what you do.

    9. Qestia*

      I do something very similar for work, and what you’re describing sounds completely normal to me (especially since you’re getting good reviews!) In my experience it doesn’t even matter if the data is correct – once the user sees it, they may decide they want something different.

      Some things I do – I try to find a reference point. So, if I know what, for example, the total number of students was in 2015, I try to replicate that number in my report before generating a number for 2016 or for some subset of students.

      Second, I try to be clear about definitions. E.g. “This report show expenses based on this hierarchy, is that the one you normally use?”

      I call everything a draft – “this is what I have so far, am I on the right track? Is this what you were expecting?”

    10. DropTheDatabase*

      Thank you everyone for your comments, they are very helpful and have given me some concrete things to work on!

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Keep in mind that not everybody has validated their data as it goes in. This means that you may have to validate the data on the way out! Also, be aware that sometimes data that looks bad might be good depending on the requirements. For example, it’s completely normal for a history professor to deal with dates that have only 3 digits, or maybe even 2 digits, so figuring out the validation issues is a major big deal.

        And yes, as others have advised, talk to people! That’s a huge deal!

        Another big deal is to learn about the tools the programming language provides you rather than rolling your own. If there’s a “teapot visualization library” available, use it rather than create your own teapot visualizer. You don’t have to be a “programming geek” but you should definitely become a serious geek about the programming language you use.

        And lastly, make sure you run the data and look at it first before handing the program to somebody else.

    11. CAA*

      First, it’s completely normal for reports to go through multiple iterations before they provide the information the requester was looking for, so set that expectation with your clients up front!

      If you’re making actual errors, such as totaling things instead of counting them, then slowing down and paying more attention should help; but if it’s more that they asked for X but the data shows Y, then this is just how report projects usually go. I have a small team of developers working on reports, and their process is to first interview the client to find out what they’re looking for, then investigate the data to find out what’s there, which sometimes requires more research to find out how it is collected. Then they have a conversation with the clients where they describe what they’ll be able to provide before actually building the report.

      Also, is there anyone else doing similar work with whom you could partner up for QA testing? Developers don’t test their own work because it’s very hard to spot mistakes in code you wrote, and having someone to bounce ideas off of during development who can also take a look at your results before you hand them to the customer can be a huge help.

  15. Spills*

    More venting than a question, but I am dealing with terrible boss at my new role. I am the event coordinator on the team, and as my time goes on here, I am noticing more and more how this director has ruined relationships with vendors and hotels, and royally screwed up almost every contract we have for this year.

    In the time that I have been here, we have run 5 programs, and for each one, the number of rooms and event spaces booked was waaay off. I’m talking booking 25 rooms for a night when we expect 80 people to be there, and then having me scramble to try to find accomodations for them. I have spent much of time here so far working with the hotels to renegotiate, but I can tell that they are frustrated and this is not the first time this has happened while working with our company.

    Most recently, we put high pressure on a hotel to create and finalize a contract with us in 2 weeks, sat on the contract for 2 months while she thought about it, booked it, and then subsequently cancelled it within another month, all due to her changing mind. We have gone back to the hotel many times to renegotiate the cancellation fees, and each time I contact them, I can feel my political capital getting worse and worse, as they see I am associated with this terribly unorganized team. I do what I can to make the salesperson understand I am frustrated, and that this is not usually how I operate while trying not to throw the team under the bus, but I am concerned that this happens with every one of the hotels that we work with, and that I will get a terrible reputation. It also does not help that this director will go behind my back and contact the vendors directly, cutting me out of the negotiations, although she is confused and often ends up taking us 3 steps back each time. Hopefully I will be able to mitigate some of this in 2017 as I will be involved in the the contracting, but it is so frustrating that someone else’s incompetence can directly affect my relationships and reputation.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’ve been in a similar position before, and it really sucked. I’m sorry and I hope it gets better. I found that being really upfront about the challenges you’re facing helped mitigate some of the frustration with external people, which it sounds like you’re already doing. As long as you’re doing your best and are polite and apologetic, people will read that and I don’t think it will damage your personal reputation.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Also, this. These contacts know it’s your boss who’s causing the chaos and not you. Don’t be afraid of standing up for yourself and your own capital in these situations. You may need these vendors in your next job, too.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      No advice, just sympathy from another event planner. My boss is usually on top of things, but every now and then she’ll rush me to get something done, then sit on it for weeks or months, and then frantically scramble to finalize it way after the deadline. Your best bet, if it’s possible, is to build out event estimates based on what actually happened the last time you held the event and present that to your boss. You can always scale down a hotel block (though, not always without financial impact); it’s much harder to expand it after the fact. Hang in there!

      1. Spills*

        Thanks for the encouragement! I am looking forward to when we begin planning for 2017 where I can try to create more accurate event estimates and accurate contracts, but until then, the rest of 2016 will be a wild ride :)

    3. zora.dee*

      Wow, it sounds like you are the person who took over my job! (where i got pushed out because I asked my boss too many questions about things she was asking me to do, which was apparently undermining her authority)

      Honestly, I gave up on my boss, there is no way she is ever going to change. And some of these things you will be able to mitigate if you do the contracts, but some of them (her sitting on a contract and then cancelling) will probably never change. If your primary concern is protecting your own reputation for future events/positions, you can definitely get the vendor staff on your side a little more. There are ways to say “I am so sorry, I am always the last to know these things.” and subtly imply where the fault lies. Then the vendors will understand who is the problem here, and it is not you. Which means if you move to another position in the future, you will be able to work with these vendors again and your reputation will be fine.

      But your boss is probably not going to change. So, yes, the organization is probably going to burn bridges with a lot of venues, and you will need to let go of it and not take it personally. Just do the best you can but at the end of the day, shrug and know it is not your fault. HUGS! I was totally there and it was really hard.

    4. justsomeone*

      I feel your pain. I really do. I’ve been pushing against exactly this kind of thing at my company for the last three years. It’s a constant struggle. No real advice, just sympathy.

  16. LBK*

    Piggybacking off this morning’s question about being bored at work: I’m someone who’s motivated by learning new things and dealing with new challenges. I’ve run into a pattern now where about a year into every job, I’ve mastered everything there is for me to do, including every available stretch assignment. I’ve loved my current role that I’ve had for about a year and a half now but I’ve fairly abruptly hit a wall where there just isn’t anything else for me do to (and ad hoc assignments have dried up, so I don’t even have some interesting variations of the usual challenges to keep me busy).

    So my question is two-fold: 1) similar to today’s question, is there anything else I can be doing in this situation? I’ve already asked for as many additional assignments as I can get and I’ve already done massive efficiency improvements to all of them (which is probably also partly why there’s so little work to do – one task that used to take up a week every month can now be done in about 2 hours). 2) Is this something I’m just going to have to accept? Are there jobs out there that are constantly challenging and providing new opportunities to learn, or do I just have to deal with the fact that I’m going to end up being bored after a year or so and I’ll have to let the pay, benefits, culture, etc. drive me to stay motivated after that?

    1. CMT*

      I’m really curious to hear people’s answers to your second question, because it’s a problem I have, too. I just hit two years in my current job and I’m so miserable because there’s never anything for me to do, and when there is it isn’t challenging work. I feel like my brain is atrophying and I’m losing intelligence every hour I sit at my desk.

    2. SittingDuck*

      I am also almost 2 years into my job – and feeling the same way. I loved my job when I first started, there were all sorts of challenges, I learned a lot of new skills, and I got to do what I love – organizing and simplifying things. Now I feel I may have done so much organizing and simplifying that I’m bored most of the time – because I took tasks that took other people a full day to do, and changed how they are processed to take less time (plus i’m proficient at these tasks) so now they take no time at all, and I spend a lot of my day wondering what I can do next.

      I too have wondered if this is just how jobs go – after you learn the basics, and provide your input/expertise into making things more efficient – is the job just going to be drudgery from there-on out?

      I don’t have any advice, i’ve been job searching lately to see if I can find something that will be fulfilling again…..

    3. A. Nonymous*

      I confess in my field this simply isn’t an issue for anyone. I’m one of those people who refuses to say they’ve “mastered” anything now. My major advice is to go back into the skills that you feel you do perfectly and look at them again. Is there anything new you can learn? Are you truly as close to perfect as you can get?

      If there’s no work to be done because slow times happen, maybe you could ask your supervisor about job training opportunities?

      1. LBK*

        Within the broad spectrum of the responsibilities I handle I’m definitely not maxed out, but I’m maxed out for my role, which is the issue. I do reporting right now, so to go up to the next level in that area I’d have to move over to our analytics team – and I’d be happy to do that, but that just continues the pattern I’ve had of getting a new job every 1.5-2 years once I cap out in what my current role offers.

        Maybe this is a better question: are there roles or fields where the skill cap within that given role is a lot higher? Am I just choosing jobs that are too niche or too low in the hierarchy?

        1. CAA*

          I think that’s pretty normal. As you get more proficient at a task, to fill the same number of hours, you either have to do more of that task, or take on a new task. Neither one is wrong, it just depends on what makes you personally feel fulfilled. Some people get a sense of accomplishment from creating 20 reports in a day instead of 10, while others want to learn something new and expand the scope of their role. Without knowing your specific situation, moving from reporting to analytics within the same company seems like a very natural progression and something you could do after 1.5 to 2 years of good performance in your current role.

          For roles or fields where you don’t need a new job to grow your skills — my own area of software development is one. Systems and Network Administration are others. Since technology changes so rapidly, there’s a lot of opportunity to learn something new and develop expertise without switching companies or even getting a new title.

          1. LBK*

            I had a feeling tech-related fields would be a good match. I’m in finance currently where I basically ended up by accident. I have no passion for the subject matter, I just like working with data and that’s all the same in any industry. So maybe an industry transition would help not only find more expandable roles, but also add an element to help sustain my motivation if the field itself is also interesting to me?

            1. AnonyMeow*

              What’s the size of the companies you’ve worked for? If they’ve all been fairly large, you could try working for a small organization. At small companies, it’s a lot easier to expand your role because they are usually people-strapped and tend to be more flexible about organizational boundaries. Your bigger-impact ideas might have a better chance of getting implemented at small organizations, too, though of course that means you’ll have a whole variety of things on your plate. It’s not for everyone, but it might be worth a try?

              1. LBK*

                Yeah, I’ve only work for 2 companies and they’re both big multi-national corporations. The first division I worked in at my current company was very new and small and so it operated very much like a smaller organization, which was one of the things I loved about it, so that’s a great suggestion – maybe I need to go smaller to somewhere that covets people who want to wear multiple hats and work on big, high visibility projects.

                1. Kimberlee, Esq*

                  yep! Since you’re in finance, you could look into office management jobs that involve bookkeeping, for instance, but would also have tons of other stuff happening.

        2. A. Nonymous*

          My field definitely. I work as an equipment technician and there is ALWAYS something to do. Broken equipment needs troubleshooted/fixed, customers need educated, new equipment to learn about, training schools, and a lot of enrichment happens.

          I could never do a desk job for the exact reasons you’re mentioning. Sure, some days I sluff off since it’s the Friday before a holiday and no one is here, but I think that’s universal. Most days I get in about 6,000 to 12,000 steps and feel pretty accomplished when I get home.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have you talked to your boss about it? I’d want to know if a good employee was feeling this way because it might indicate we should be adjusting your responsibilities.

      1. LBK*

        So, this is another element of why I’m asking the question and why I feel kind of guilty about thinking about moving on, because I love my boss and I’m afraid the answer will “Sorry, nothing else in this department for you, time to go.” That’s what happened to the person who was in my position before and she ended up moving to the analytics team that I mentioned above because that’s the natural next step from this team.

        I’ve never felt bad about being ready to go to the next step when it’s happened before because, frankly, it was the perfect excuse to get away from crappy managers. But she’s been an incredible boss and mentor and I’m hesitant to leave her after all the support she’s given me. Which I know is probably silly because I’m sure nothing makes a boss happier than seeing their protege succeed. But I also really like being autonomous and getting paid well and being lavished with praise, and it’s tough to walk away from that into the unknown of a new team.

        I suppose the answer is to just ask her about it and given how awesome she’s been about everything else, maybe she’ll find a place for me under her that will give me the step up I’m looking for, right?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes! I mean, the answer very well could be “I recognize that you can do more but I don’t have it for you, so I understand if you’re getting ready to move on” and she could leave it there. But that would be okay, and there’s nothing stopping you from saying “no, I’m actually really happy here, even if we don’t increase my role” if you want to say that.

          1. LBK*

            Huh. Somehow I genuinely hadn’t considered the idea that I could still choose to stay after the conversation, regardless of how it goes. That kind of opens the door for me to have this talk, because I was thinking of it as once I say something, either she’s able to find something for me or I have to leave, but I guess there’s nothing that dictates that to be true.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah, the talk doesn’t need to be “I am ready to not do this job anymore.” It can just be “I feel like I’ve mastered my responsibilities and I’d love to take on more if that’s ever possible.”

    5. Jennifer*

      This is where I’d start working on my own personal projects during work hours if you’re absolutely out of stuff to do.
      As for being bored, I don’t know. That may just be a factor for you in every job and you’re the sort that wants to come in, reform everything and then leave. On the other hand, you could go work where I do where there’s always some new complicated thing being thrown onto the top of my already avalanche-full plate. Some industries may have less to do than others, but mine is so short-staffed that there’s not a lot of time to be bored. (Except right now because I’ve oddly managed to finish everything for the time being, so…personal project time! I write book reports on history books because NERD.)

    6. designbot*

      As to your last question, there are definitely jobs out there that constantly provide new opportunities to learn. I’ve been in design for around 10 years (tried a couple of things before settling into what is now my specialty), and every job I’ve been in has really be based on this. Even when you get to a point of competency or even mastery, each client and each project you encounter is different enough to keep you on your toes and learning new things.
      I’m not sure what you do now, but is there a way to shift into a more design or problem-solving based role?

      1. LBK*

        There is definitely a problem-solving element of my role that I really love, but fortunately/unfortunately we’ve gotten really good at solving problems and therefore haven’t had any big ones in a while. My old team lead and I did a ton of analysis about root causes of our usual issues and created standard methodologies for researching them, and now I can pinpoint and resolve most of the issues we encounter literally within minutes. Once again, being too effective shoots me in the foot!

        1. designbot*

          I suppose I mean a different sort of problem solving then… the “problem solving” I encounter in my work is in the form of projects that take months or years, each of which has a different client with a different goal, a different site… even when you think you 100% know what you’re doing, there will be some unique aspect to it that you’ve never encountered before, and this is still true for people who’ve been in the business for 30 years. What I’d look for if I were you is a role that helps create custom solutions to complex or large scale problems, rather than repeatable ones.

          1. LBK*

            What I’d look for if I were you is a role that helps create custom solutions to complex or large scale problems, rather than repeatable ones.

            That’s a fantastic insight. Thank you.

    7. zora.dee*

      Honestly, this is why I love working on events, because on almost every event, something will go wrong that is completely out of my control, and I get to figure out how to solve it! And it’s always slightly different, so I never get bored with problem-solving. ;o)

      But yeah, maybe if you talk to your boss, she’ll have some ideas of bigger strategic things you could spend some time thinking about, or maybe there are other things she can think of that you could learn about. You might as well ask, especially if she’s a great boss!

    8. Clever Name*

      Look for jobs that are described in the ad as “fast paced environment”. Consulting is a good way to never be bored. Small firms tend to have smaller projects (that are short-term rather than lasting years), and you can wear many hats. I too get bored easily, and I finally found a place where I’m always busy and always learning. I’m a top performer at my company, and I have about 4 major roles.

    9. knitcrazybooknut*

      I was a graphic designer and a database administrator for a year and a half each in two different companies. I got bored once I “fixed” everything – organized, simplified, made things efficient and cost-effective.

      I interviewed for a temp position in HR one Friday, started Monday, and have never been bored since. I did payroll in that company for seven years, and now I do HRIS for a state university. I am never really bored. I am not an extrovert; I don’t like talking on the phone; I would rather sit in my cave and get work done than have meetings. But when you’re in HR, you’re dealing with people, and you never know who is going to walk in the door with what kind of problem. Also, the laws are constantly changing and evolving; now that I’m in a state institution, the budgets flex and spin all the time; and my team is still dealing with the neglect this position suffered before I got here two plus years ago.

      I agree with the person who said look for “fast-paced environment”, and you may want to look either on the small business side (many hats to wear for each person) or the very large business side (many possible roles in one company). Definitely talk to your manager and see what they say.

    10. Beancounter in Texas*

      If you ever consider a job change or career change, you sound like a process analyst jedi. If you nabbed a job as a consultant with a very busy consulting firm, I’m betting you wouldn’t get bored with that.

    11. July*

      Curious to know what field you work in and what your role is? It’s a bit vague and too open ended to ask “are there jobs where there are regular things to do?” when that really varies by industry and role!!

    12. Kimberlee, Esq*

      To your second question, you might be well served to seek out more generalized, as opposed to more narrow and specialized, jobs. I work in what I would call Operations, but I’ve done office management, a bit of bookkeeping, some scheduling, some compliance, some HR, some admin, some writing, some recruiting and interviewing, some budget work… in my current job, I do some amount of almost all of the above, and have found that I just thrive more in roles where I have a wide range of tasks, rather than specializing in doing one thing. Every day is different at my job, but mastering responsibilities still brings me big rewards in terms of productivity.

      Especially if you’re really fast at learning new things, try learning some stuff that is adjacent to what you’ve been doing. Most organizations love having someone around that is really good at doing a lot of different kinds of things.

  17. AMD*

    Has anyone ever happily transitioned from a high-paying career to one that pays significantly less, like 2/3 as much or less?

    1. Megs*

      It happens a decent amount in the legal profession. One of the partners who worked in the same practice group as my husband left for a government job which pays 1/3rd as much (or less), and she seems amazingly happy.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I was just going to say that! A good friend who worked in Big Law recently switched to a corporate counsel job. While she’s not exactly thrilled with her current position, she’s much happier overall. Granted, she still gets paid much more than I ever will, but it’s significantly less than her last few gigs.

        1. K.*

          My best friend took a 50% pay cut to go from BigLaw to in-house counsel. She’s much happier. I have another friend who went from a huge, prestigious firm (one of the most prestigious in the world) to a much smaller one in her hometown. My best friend relocated too. Both moved to cities with lower COLs, which helped mitigate the lower wages. Both are totally happy with their decisions.

    2. Andy*

      Kind of? I went from a fairly well paid private practice paralegal to a university administrator and I love it. There was major balancing, though!
      1) my commute is 5 minutes long now, as opposed to sitting in traffic for 40 minutes each way.
      2) although my pay is waaay less the benefits are amazing and include total tuition remission for me, my spouse, and our kids.
      3) did I mention the commute?
      4) my wardrobe budget got reduced by a million times and I’m still stylin’ pretty good within this office’s culture.

      Pay’s not everything, and I love it here. (this being said, when I was sent a request to interview for another well-paying position in a federal office I was sorely tempted to jump ship and try to come back when the mission-based job in DC was over. Decision pending)

      1. Rebecca Too*

        I recently left a job that paid really well, but killed my soul. I had so much responsibility, I worked crazy hours, I was relied upon for so much that I mentally buckled and had to take FMLA for a month just to recover. I quit that job, and took a position that is the polar opposite in every way of my old job. That would include the salary, but I cannot tell you how much happier I am! No more ridiculous 4am starts because the “big boss” is coming. No more working weekends and holidays (yay! This is my first 3 day weekend in 15 years!!), and best of all, I love the work. My commute went from 30 minutes to 15 minutes, I’m saving so much money because I pack my lunch everyday, as opposed to taking long, carb-loaded lunches to deal with my stress, and I’ve really gotten to know and like all of my co-workers. For me, it’s been completely worth it. Yes, making a lot of money is nice. But when you’re too unhappy and stressed out to enjoy it, then it kind of doesn’t matter.

    3. Jaydee*

      I think the reason it’s common in BigLaw is because there’s 1) a clear trade of $$$ for other things (work-life balance, specialization, lower stress, etc.) and 2) usually still plenty of money in the lower-paying career path.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Yes. About a year ago I took a 37% pay cut for the job I’m in now.

      I did it very deliberately, because I decided to step back in my career. I was running myself ragged, in an organization with operational values that ran counter to mine. I decided to “demote myself” and do work that was more fulfilling and sustainable to me. (I shifted from a director-level position at a national, startup nonprofit to more junior position at a larger, but locally-focused nonprofit) .

      I don’t have any regrets about the choice I made. The money has been fine; I’m very pleased with the tradeoff I made. What’s been harder is… pride, I guess. I sometimes find myself frustrated that I have more experience than folks two levels up from me (or when someone at my level — but on a different team — with literally a decade less experience than me, gets a promotion). I made this choice on purpose; I and my current employer both knew that I had the experience of someone at least a few levels up, and that I decided for good reason that I would prefer to be in a more junior role. But it still stings a bit!

      (BTW, what led me to even consider a more junior role, was when I realized that my favorite job, and all of my friends favorite jobs, had been really early in their careers, when we got to do the direct work we were excited about. As we progressed in our careers we traded the fun, front-line work for increased salaries and prestige. I decided to go back to the fun part.)

    5. Anxa*

      I can’t say I’m happy with the transition all around, because I don’t make enough money to survive on my own, but day-t0-day I’m much happier as a professional tutor than I was as a server.

      Make a lot less per month, but whenever I stop fretting about the future and long-term sustainability of my job, I’m much happier.

      The problem, though, is that since I’m education staff, I’m not really part of the core staff of the college, and so the pay and lack of benefits just is miserable.

    6. NoTurnover*

      I’m in the midst of making a change from compensation of about $80k to…well, a lot less. A LOT less.

      I’ve been saving like heck for the past several years to make a move like this (though not necessarily this specific one) possible.

      New job is something I’m passionate about, and if it goes well, eventually I’ll make more (though probably never 80k again). As for whether the transition will be happy, ask me again in six months!

  18. YouKnowME*

    I just got an email for a phone interview for a chain dr officeish today at 1:30, they got my resume from indeed. I don’t particularly want to work for them doing desk work but I was going to the interview just incase they took me by surprise and there was something interesting but then they sent me an application. This thing is 8 pages long, they want a full employment history, & a list of my social media accounts(not happening) and saying ” I accidently left my wallet at my father last night when we were there for dinner so I cant give you my drivers license until tomorrow” isn’t going to start this off on a good foot at all. I’m not handing my social media accounts over, MAYBE after being offered a job I would tell an employer that im #InstagramFamous but not im not giving an interviewer my instagram info so they can see me in my underwear teaching people how to deal with HUGE amounts of loose skin after loosing more than 1/2 of my body weight. they don’t need to see my gym pictures prior to interview. this inter view isn’t going to go anywhere and im in a rotten mood, can I just email and say “thank you but I don’t think its a good fit?”

    1. ZSD*

      What?! Social media accounts? And this isn’t even for some sort of PR position? That strikes me as a ridiculous request.

      1. neverjaunty*

        And a stupid one. Social media accounts can reveal a lot about race, gender, sexual orientation, religion and so on.

        1. Honeybee*

          It’s not illegal or even problematic for people to know your race, gender, sexual orientation, religion and so on. You will get a lot of that information (or perceptions of it) just by meeting someone in person. It’s only a problem if you use it to make hiring decisions.

          That said, I still think it’s a stupid request.

      2. Audiophile*

        Even for a social media or PR position, it can be invasive.

        Do I have a Facebook, Twitter and Instagram account? Yes. Do I ever really give them out when applications ask? No.
        I’m not looking to increase my followers on any of those platforms, so it doesn’t give any real insight into whether I can increase your followers and engagement on your posts.

    2. Dawn*

      can I just email and say “thank you but I don’t think its a good fit?”

      Yup. You have my permission and my blessing :)

          1. Jadelyn*

            I’m having a great day so far and I still agree with you – that’s about what I’d say.

      2. CAA*

        It’s also fine to email and say “Thanks, but I’m not comfortable providing information about my personal social media accounts before we’ve had a chance to talk and see if this position would be a good fit. Could you let me know whether that’s a requirement to proceed with the interview?”

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          I’m not comfortable providing information about my personal social media accounts before we’ve had a chance to talk

          Change that to, “I’m not comfortable providing information about my personal social media accounts for a job that doesn’t require that information,” and that would be exactly what I’d say.

      3. Jaydee*

        My blessing as well. And I agree with the advice to let them know the social media account request is WAY over-reaching.

    5. Pineapple Incident*

      ABSOLUTLY YES, you can and should blow these people off- and the way you’re doing it is very polite (better than they deserve). There’s no standing for a doctor’s office to collect that information from you as an applicant even if you had sought them out.

      If they saw something in an internet search of your name that turned them off, it’s a fair thing to let that color their hiring decisions. However, they can do that on their own and don’t need you to do their work for them- vetting potential employees is on the employer beyond candidates’ responsibility to be honest in their application materials.

      If you want to make a point with them especially since they contacted you first, I would mention something about how unnecessary it is to collect people’s social media information, not to mention invasive.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Since they contacted you and you’re not particularly invested, tell them why you’re no longer interested! For instance: “Whoa, that’s pretty invasive. I don’t think it makes sense to move forward, but thanks for your interest.”

      1. Calliope~*

        Alison, if she was at the offer stage, would it still be considered invasive? I wouldn’t want to give my social media information at all regardless but am wondering if this is normal?

          1. AliceBD*

            I manage a national brand’s social media; we’re the biggest player in our field. And my personal social media accounts would not be helpful at all in evaluating me for a position managing social media. I rarely post on my personal accounts (except for Facebook, which is pretty locked down), and when I do I am intentionally not optimizing them for exposure. A much better metric is looking at how I handle my current job’s accounts. So unless you’re being an influencer and saying you can help someone because lots of people follow you, or you’re very junior and have no other examples you can give (although in that case, you could probably find a volunteer organization to help to give you examples; I have several friends running the social media for local animal shelters), then I still think looking at the social media is invasive and not useful.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        But most of those (although not all) are about being able to access your account, not just to view it the way anyone else might.

    8. Florida*

      I’m sort of a smarty pants in these situations, so I might say, “I noticed the application asked for my social media accounts. I think it’s fair for the interviewing process to include equal transparency on both sides, so I would like the social media accounts of everyone in my chain of command.”
      I’m not saying this is the best way to handle it – it’s just the type of thing I might do.

  19. Christopher Tracy*

    I’m coming up on six months in my current division soon (July 18) and I’m wondering how to approach my supervisor about getting a review – I’d like to ask for a raise. We do individual file audits once a month, and I’ve had excellent feedback about my work, so I know I’m doing a very good job. And during my monthly one-on-one with my supervisor last month, she told me I’m doing a great job and she can definitely see about giving me more complex assignments because I catch things she sometimes doesn’t. Then there’s the fact that I didn’t get a performance review at all for 2015 – my previous manager from my last division was supposed to do it in March, but she never did. That caused my current division to defer my review period (because HR requires that all employees have something in the system regarding yearly reviews). Problem is, they never indicated when the deferment would end and they’d do a formal review.

    Like I said, I fully believe that I’ve gone above and beyond in this role since I started, they’ve all said I’m performing at a very high level (including my divisional AVP, who claims I’ll be running circles around him soon), and my division president gave me a surprise bonus out of his own bonus check back in May – but my division just hired a bunch of new people, we’re bringing on one more person soon (a graduate from my training program), and we didn’t get the business we thought we were going to get. We’re still in a great spot financially, but I know they were counting on having way more money than we currently have. I know that my work merits a pay increase, but I’m wondering if it’s incredibly tone deaf to broach this topic right now given everything noted above as opposed to in December (the anniversary of when they hired me). I guess I need a script for how to discuss this with my supervisor. She’s pretty cool and I don’t feel intimidated, and she goes to bat for her people hard – I just don’t want to put her in an awkward spot with our division leaders, especially since my promotion in January already came with a 10% increase from where I was salary wise last year.

    1. A. Nonymous*

      I would just ask. “I’m excited to get into more complex assignments and I appreciate all the feedback you’re giving me. Based on my improvement, do you think it’d be possible for me to get a raise in this fiscal year?” You’re a hard working employee from the sounds of things and it’s a harmless question to ask. Gauging her reaction will help you figure out how hard to push for it.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Oh, I plan to ask, I just wanted to know if the timing sounds off to anyone else or if I’m way overthinking this.

        1. A. Nonymous*

          I don’t think so at all! You seem really eager and happy with what you’re doing and I wouldn’t find you out of line.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            I am really happy about this job :) It’s nice after the horror of the last couple of months in my previous division. I’m so happy here, that when a director from another division approached me early this week about applying for a job his division is about to post (which would report directly to his Senior VP), I turned him down. If only they’d had this opportunity back in November when I was still looking! But yeah, if things continue to go well here, and I’m fully aware things can turn on a dime depending on the moods of those higher up, I could see myself staying a few years with this group. It’s been an incredible learning experience so far.

    2. BRR*

      I’m thinking it’s too soon. I’m not sure though if it’s different for internal promotions. It also depends I think how your company works (mine rarely gives raises) and how your pay compares to market rate.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        See, our company is all over the map with this because we have over 40 business units/support services, and each one operates differently. So like, the guy I went through my company’s training program with was promoted twice in one year after our respective placements (so his division has no problem giving out raises in six month increments). But then other divisions only hand out raises during official review time, which is in March. I’ve taken on a lot of work this year and have exceeded expectations (their words), so I’d like to think that I’m not incredibly off base by asking if another increase is possible. I’m trying to move into the next quintile – I’m currently in the one reserved for people who are just learning a role whereas my work product indicates I should be in the next one up – and the next step up if I were to get a promotion at some point in the future is three pay grades above where I currently am, which would mean my division would have to give me, like, a 25% raise to get me to the starting rate for that role. I highly doubt they’d want to give me 25% at one time. So I’m trying to slowly inch up to put us in a nice position for when they’re ready and able to move me up to the next job band.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            I’ve been with this company nearly three years and don’t know if that’s a thing. I’ll ask one of my former managers about it.

  20. Sara M*

    We discussed this before, but I can’t find it.

    ADHD people, how did you learn to stop interrupting? I’m terrible about it and I need to change. Both at work and at home. Can we either point me there or start a new discussion here?

    I’m a mild case but I can’t take medication for it. Thanks.

    1. Kristine*

      I also have a problem with interrupting! I don’t have ADHD, but a host of other mental health issues that can make my mind race.

      My advice is breathe deeply during the conversation and force yourself to be a present listener. Folding my hands or doing something slow and methodical with them (squeezing a stress ball, doodling, etc) has helped me focus long enough to let the other person finish talking, as well as actually listening to what they’re saying.

      I’d also recommend taking up yoga and/or practicing meditation. They’ve done wonders for my concentration.

    2. BRR*

      Over time it’s gotten easier to recognize when it’s about to happen so I can stop myself. At first I would always remind myself before meetings. I’ll also write down anything that I feel is so important that I need to interrupt with it (which is usually why I do it).

    3. Andy*

      I have a ‘WAIT’ mantra
      Why
      Am
      I
      Talking
      it helps me, although like all habit-changes it took a while to really be part of my processes

    4. Gwen*

      I’m super bad at this, and I usually don’t realize I’m doing it. If I’m in a meeting, I try writing a note down about what I want to say so I don’t get the “I HAVE TO SAY IT NOW OR IT’S GONE FOREVER” feeling. In person, I just honestly try to breathe and literally bite my tongue, and to be Really Active as I listen? Like, nodding and making eye contact and really closely listening to what they’re saying to remind myself that it’s time for listening and not for talking.

      1. Click*

        +1!
        I have a personal parking lot in every meeting. Notes of things I’d like to add or discuss when I can. It’s not an easy habit to break. Good luck!

      2. ADULT ADD/ADHD??*

        I’ve no official diagnosis, and am in the process of figuring it out – I am 32. But yeah, I often feel like “I HAVE TO SAY IT NOW OR IT’S GONE FOREVER” because I will definitely forget by the time the other party finishes, unless i focus on what I want to say but then that means I miss everything the other party is saying because I’m trying to make sure I dont forget!

        Writing it down would be helpful if possible. Like in meetings. But i dont know aside from that.

    5. addlady*

      I’ve given up. I’ve just tried to start a new habit, so that the first thing out of my mouth is typically a whisper. It’ll keep happening, but people will not hear it, and then I can decide whether it was actually something I wanted to say or not.

    6. Kimberlee, Esq*

      Honestly? This might sound like I have low self-esteem or something and I really don’t, but I just remind myself that what I have to say probably isn’t that interesting. Seriously, whenever I’m in a conversation, I look around and think about what everyone else is saying, and think if my 2 cents is really that big of a deal.

      Most people like talking more than they like listening, but most people also view conversations as “talking and then not talking until you can jump in and talk again.” I speak up when I know I have something valuable to add, but I set a threshold for myself that I mostly jump into a crowded conversation only when I know I have something really great. If you find yourself interrupting people a lot, your personal threshold might not be high enough. Think to yourself “is what I want to say REALLY so much more important than what this person is saying that I need to jump in here?”

    7. YaH*

      For me, it took being medicated, although that’s not an option for you. It helped curb the impulsivity and short-term recall issues that are often the cause for the need to interrupt. I didn’t have to be afraid that I was going to forget what I wanted to say before I had a chance to say it.

      However, at work I bring post-it notes and paper into meetings and jot down notes of what’s being said, with a little asterik or arrow to the side and one or two key words that will help trigger recall of what I wanted to say when it’s the appropriate time.

      At home, you need to enlist the help of the people you live with. If someone is talking about a problem they’re having, ask them if they want you to offer advice or if they just want a supportive ear. That way you know whether you can sit back and take the pressure of coming up with ideas off of your shoulders and just be a good listener, or whether you’re going to have to practice your non-interrupting skills super hard. :)

      You may have to train them to give you positive reinforcement. When you’re having a conversation with a family member or friend, interrupting says, “What I have to say is more important than what you’re saying”, and it also says, “I’m not actually listening to you and thinking about what you’re saying, I’m thinking about what I want to say next.” Both of those are so hurtful, which you already know.

      Search for advice on active listening skills.

      I’m not sure how to do it with another adult, but with a kid who has a habit of interrupting, I try to catch them “being good.” Every time they let me finish a thought, “thank you for letting me finish without interrupting. It makes me feel good that you were really listening to me. What do you think about what I was saying?” If you’re up for it, you can ask the people you live with to do something similar. Ask them to tell you how it will improve your relationship when you stop interrupting them.

    8. Adhdy*

      This is something I’ve conquered pretty successfully, but I started getting coping strategies pushed at me as a kid. The most effective:
      -Repeating back in my head what people are saying. Sort of a 1 second time delay. I find that it forces me to pay attention and puts my thoughts on a back-burner.
      Also, sometimes I:
      -Track how many times I’ve spoken with hash marks on my pad
      -Create elaborate geometric shapes
      -Use a notation system for ideas/thoughts so I can save them for later – I draw a box around mine
      -Like the other posters – ask myself how much value my thought or question actually adds at the moment.

      Also, I once had a kickass manager who gently told me that other people take longer to reach the same conclusions, and to shush so they could get there on their own. It helps to know that we’re probably going to get there eventually, I guess.

  21. Mike C.*

    Well here’s a bit of a dozy from the Wall Street Journal:

    “If a new job forces your hand, work overtime to repair your relationship with your boss. Ashley Stahl coached a manager who reluctantly quit after getting a new job offer. It included a 60% pay increase and promotion to a higher level of management but also an ultimatum: “Either show up Monday and take this role, or don’t show up at all. ” Ms. Stahl, chief executive officer of a Santa Monica, Calif., training company for millennial job seekers, says the woman found ways to mend fences with her former bosses by referring several candidates to succeed her and returning later, on weekends, to help train her successor on her own time.”

    I mean really?!

    I also love the example of the employee who saw illegal things so she wrote a nice, long letter explaining why she shouldn’t work here anymore instead of, you know, reporting the employer to the proper authorities.

    This article isn’t all bad of course (yes, you should check your contracts first and yes, you should actually speak to someone about issues that come up rather than just leaving, I mean duh) but seriously, this article is pretty special.

    2. H.C.*

      I love how the author never mentioned how that’s the (rarely used) other side of the “at will employment” two way street works.

      Also, double UGH at the millennial implication of them being more likely to leave sans notice without the stats to actually back it up.

    3. Slippy*

      I love (sarcasm) how the article pitches quitting on the spot as an employee problem that employees need to fix. Outside of a few outlying cases if you have people quitting on the spot it is an employer issue. It was a nice attempt at reverse psychology though.

      1. Mike C.*

        “Yeah, all these people keep quitting without notice, it must be a new trend”. Let me rephrase that:

        “Yeah, all these women I keep going out with never return my phone calls, it must be a new trend.”

        Maybe if this keeps happening, the problem is with you…

    5. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      “Employers may also ask new hires to sign employment contracts requiring them to forfeit pay for unused vacation or paid time off if they quit without notice.”

      Is that even legal if the employee has the time accrued?

      3. Christopher Tracy*

        When I left Evil Law Firm with two weeks of unused vacation time, they didn’t pay me a single cent for it. I’m still mad about that.

        1. Audiophile*

          Most employers state up front that they won’t pay for unused vacation, if an employee resigns. This is one of the many reasons, that I take my vacations or in some cases, stay on part-time and use the vacation sporadically.

  22. Betty Sapphire*

    I started a new job about two months ago and love it here. My question is about my previous employer: I was paid in direct deposit there, and did receive final paycheck in a timely manner. Since I finished in the middle of the pay period it was at a lesser rate (as expected), but I never received my paper pay stub. This is something I want to keep primarily for my personal files. Also, the person in charge of payroll had a history of messing up. (For example, he didn’t pay me for a day of work in my first paycheck and would forget to pay contracted employees altogether. Sometimes PayChex would call because some things were not given to them.)

    My question is: Is requesting my final paper pay stub something I can ask for, or have I missed my window of opportunity?

    1. Packers Fan*

      I think you can absolutely ask. Either call the person in charge or your old manager and say “Hey, just realized I didn’t receive a paper copy of my last paystub. I like to keep this for my records. Could one be mailed?” It might take a few tries but I think you’re well within reason to ask for it.

      (Also, I feel your pain. I left a job with someone like you’ve described doing payroll.)

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Seconded- you have more than the right to ask. iIdon’t think 2 months is past your expiration date on this kind of thing either.

    2. BRR*

      You’re good. If they reply how long it’s been I would respond with something saying yeah it has been two months, why didn’t you give it to me by now (but much more polite).

    3. Jadelyn*

      I’ve had former employees come back six months later asking for all their pay stubs (which are available in their login to the system, which they keep access to for a year after separation, so it’s not like they actually need me to do it). Trust me, a couple months is nothing. Just email them and ask.

    4. Mike C.*

      I can never understand how incompetent people can be assigned to payroll. We have thousands of years of recorded history where empires rise and fall only because someone was paid (or not) on time.

    5. Joanna*

      If it was years and years ago I’d say probably not, but requesting that kind of documentation after only 2 months seems entirely reasonable to me.

      1. Tx anon*

        Unless you worked for the company I used to. Requests for duplicate pay stubs were met with “we don’t do that, you’ll see it on your w-2.” Paper checks would be reissued but duplicate checkstubs would not be – if your direct deposit went in, they’d claim they mailed the stub and would refuse to send another.

  23. Anonymoosetracks*

    Next week I have a final-round interview for what is basically my dream job! I need to talk to my current boss before the interview. He will get a call from the interviewer either shortly before or after I interview- it’s all in the same field and they work closely with each other- basially his reference is probably more important to my chances than the actual interview. I expect a good reference in general- my performance reviews are top of the charts and he has given me several bonuses recently in a field where bonuses are vanishingly rare. But I also know he will be disppointed to know I’m looking to move on. Based on what is typically done in the office it is definitely expected that I would give him a heads-up before he gets a call from the interviewer, and we have the sort of relationship where, if I tell him how want him to pitch my career goals and accomplishments in his reference, he will do so. So talking to him beforehand, in-depth, is important because I can use it to strengthen my presentation. One problem, though, is that I’m out of the office working offsite on an urgent project all of next week until the interview. Should I just call him to have this conversation? It is the sort of thing that I imagine would be far easier and better in person. Should I try to get into the office somehow? I just have no idea how best to handle.

    Also I am three months pregnant with my first child and have not told anyone at work yet. My instinct is to wait until this is all settled. Do you think my instinct is correct?

    Basically this is a lot at once.

    1. A. Nonymous*

      I think your instincts are correct in regards to your pregnancy.

      Also, I would absolutely reach out to my boss if I were you. That way no one is caught off guard. It’s not the best way to talk to them, but it’s much better than being blind sided.

    2. Laura*

      Tell your boss about the new job ASAP, but don’t mention your pregnancy until you have secured the new position.

  24. anonny*

    any tips on how to politely decline a job offer?

    it started months ago and is now just wrapping up, when things at my current job had turned south. however, things have gotten better (more responsibility, communication, exposure to things).

    this process has caused me to do a lot of soul searching, and with upcoming potential life changing events (having a child) i believe it makes more sense to stay put where i’m at. so.. if a job offer comes today from another firm.. how do i politely do this?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      “Thank you so much for the offer and for taking the time to meet with me and learn about my candidacy for the role. I have immensely enjoyed getting to know more about Company and the team. At this point, I have decided to take my career search in a different direction and regretfully must turn down this offer.”

      Or something more in your voice :)

    2. animaniactoo*

      “Thank you for the offer, however I have chosen another opportunity.”

      “Thank you for the offer, unfortunately due to changes since I started interviewing I am going to stay with my current position.”

      Depending on how much info you think you need to give them. And thank them for their time and tell them you enjoyed meeting with them.

    3. BRR*

      I personally like a thank you and decided to pursue another opportunity. I think any more info is kind of weird and over sharing. Also if you are a 100% certain you wouldn’t take it, I would withdraw my candidacy.

    4. neverjaunty*

      I would not wait for the offer. Contact them immediately and give them the ‘thanks but another opportunity’ speech others have suggested, and add ‘I appreciate all the time and effort you have put in and wanted to let you know as soon as possible’.

  25. DMouse*

    I’ve worked for the same awesome boss for the last 9 years. About a year and a half ago, we were part of a group that was acquired by another company. Although in theory my job was supposed to be the same, the new company took away most of the responsibilities that I actually enjoyed doing, and I spend most of my time on the parts that I really don’t like. And often don’t have enough to do. My boss and I proposed a whole bunch of things I’d be happy to take on, but the giant company we work for now isn’t really interested in having me do anything else. There’s also not really anywhere to grow because we work at a remote office away from corporate, and they mostly only hire for their corporate office.

    So obviously has been time to get a new job for a while but here’s the issue – I have been dealing with an extremely upsetting and difficult family situation for several years. My boss is amazing, I have a ton of flexibility in my hours, work from home whenever I want, or even days when she knows I’m not working a full day and doesn’t care. I rarely have to stress about any work projects. So I feel really stuck. I’m worried about how I would manage going back to a 40 hour a week, less flexibility situation, as well as concerned about whether I would find a good boss and coworkers again.

    1. Dawn*

      Is it more important for you to have flexibility and a no stress job or to have a challenging, rewarding job *at this point in your life*? Answer that question and then you’ll know what to do. ALSO, once you have decided what you want to do (stay or go), figure out how you’re going to meet the needs of whatever part of you is getting the short end of the stick in whichever situation you’re in. SO, if you stay, how are you going to work on feeling fulfilled professionally? If you go, how are you going to make sure you don’t get stressed/ meet the needs of your family (maybe hire someone? maybe therapy? maybe back off some?)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I stayed at a job too long because with family stuff, it was easier to have a familiar job than have an unfamiliar job for the reasons you show here.

      It sounds like you have ten solid reasons for staying and one solid reason for leaving.

      Consider time in blocks rather than long term. Decide to stay, oh, another 6 months, 12 months, whatever and then look at your decision again. At that point you might decide to do another 6 or 12 months or you might decide to start looking.

      Sometimes difficult situations shift and that shift allows us to do other things with our lives. For example, when a parent went into assisted living, this caused a shift in my life. I was able to consider finishing my degree, which I did. I wished I had done more of this type of thinking over the years, where I could use little breaks in old patterns to make a change in my personal setting.
      And yes, emotions get very heavy. Part of making the decision to do a major change is mustering the determination to make a go of it. If you can’t see yourself mustering the determination, then your answer could be as simple as “wait a few more months”.

      With some on-going issues, I started making small changes that lessened my involvement or lessen the amount of time it took to deal with the issue. This may or may not fit your setting.

      If you see no end in sight and you do not see your situation shifting in the future to be less time-intensive, then maybe this is what to look at right now, rather than look for a job. There’s a lot to be said for jobs that we can keep while we work through family stuff.

  26. ABC123*

    This is too late for this job, but I’m wondering if anyone has any advice on negotiating salary in this situation, in case I ever have this happen again. I applied through one of those automated systems that requires you to put a salary requirement. I was worried about pricing myself out of even getting my resume looked at, so I put a little lower than I would have initially stated in a discussion, but a salary that I would be able to accept. I had read through the advice here and thought I would be ready to negotiate when I got the offer, but the way HR worded it threw me and I just ended up accepting. When making the offer, HR said “I see you asked for $x and that’s what we’re offering you”. Was there a way to counter after that? I couldn’t think of anything and this was a position that I really wanted and the salary wasn’t awful, but I would have liked to try to negotiate a little more.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would have said that yes, you entered that number in the system, but that it would fluctuate based on additional information you learned about the role, the benefits package, etc. I would’ve asked if there was any flexibility on the offer, based on information that you gathered during the interview process.

      If possible, I always enter a range instead of a flat number in those automated system, of write a number and then in parenthesis, put “(negotiable)” “(depending upon full package)” or something along those lines.

    2. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

      I’m no good at the exact wording, but in the moment I think it would have been entirely reasonable to say something to the effect of:
      As you know, I had to provide that figure in the application, so I provided $X, which is the minimum I would consider. Knowing what I do now about the position, I think $Y would be the market value of this position.

    3. BRR*

      I would say something about learning more about the position and/or total compensation package.

    4. zora.dee*

      I would just say “Well, actually, after learning more through the interview, I was hoping for something more like $X. Is that possible?” and then stop talking.

  27. Not Karen*

    My employer is rolling out one of those stupid personality assessments to “help” us work together more effectively. Any suggestions on how to politely yet firmly request to decline participating? Any success stories on declining participation?

    1. Mike C.*

      I’d suggest linking such articles like the one on Vox about how they aren’t really useful. (Link in response)

    2. EA*

      It was forced on me. I had to do a myers-brigg as part of a training. I just wrote in my review of the training all the reasons why this isn’t helpful.

      1. Slippy*

        Attempt to make art or cool designs from filling in the dots or if it on a computer just ABBA CA DABBA and finish in record time. Explain away finishing so quickly by saying efficiency is part of your personality.

    3. Grumpy*

      YMMV but I cited the clause in the facilitator guide that forcing the exam on someone was an “unethical use of the instrument” and pointed out that they could be reported and lose their “ability” to use the exam.
      Also, ug. I feel for you.

    4. Laura*

      Just had to do TWO personality assessments this week for staff-wide training! (Myers Briggs and PETS)

      Both were really short and didn’t take up too much of my time, so I just did them. Protesting them is NOT a hill I want to die on, nor is it something I want to be known for. I think they’re stupid, and so did most of my team when we discussed the results during training. Whatever.

  28. Amy M in HR*

    So…exciting news! I wrote in on an open thread a few months back regarding the amazing cover letter and resume I wrote thanks to AAM’s advice which I used to apply for a position on the other side of the country from me. A few weeks later I wrote that the company had asked me in for an interview, and were willing to wait until June as that was when I would be in that city for vacation. Well, this week I was offered (and accepted) the position! YAY!!! It means moving without my husband (who is military and will stay at his current duty station for the next year), but it also means I will be able to set up our “forever home” in the city we love and he will join me upon his military retirement next year. Thank you so much Allison for you great advice, I feel like this would not have happened with you!

    1. Dawn*

      YEAHHHHHH GET IT GIRL!!!! That is AWESOME! I hope it goes amazing and awesome and swimmingly! Kinda bummed you have to spend a year apart from your husband (god I would be devastated if I had to do that!) but YAYYYYYYYYY on the job!

      1. Amy M in HR*

        Just saw this today – love your user name! My personalized license plate says “NorCal”, gotta rep the home state no matter where we are stationed!

  29. thehighercommonsense*

    This isn’t a question, just a story for y’alls amusement:

    I’m a bureaucrat, in a workplace that enjoys parties “for employee morale.” At the moment, we’re scheduling a party for the end of the fiscal year. A notice went to out to folks, asking them to sign up for a potluck dish or cash. Okay, no big deal. Most people took the cash option, I assume because they figured someone would collect all the cash and get some larger main dishes or something.

    A couple days ago, we got an email thanking folks for their potluck contributions, but chewing out the people who’d signed up for cash (*which was included as an option on the sign-up sheet*), saying “thanks for taking the easy way out, but you will cause someone else to have to stop on their way home after a long day to pick something up, so please consider picking up something yourself, which is just as quick and easy.” (….but not as easy as giving cash to someone else.) Today, we got an email again telling people to quit signing up for cash, and oh by the way, you should plan on your dish feeding 50-60 people.

    In case anyone is wondering if this is an anomaly, at our last employee appreciation event, senior staff were required to contribute money each to feed an entire division, a particular business unit (mine) had to make up a song/rap about our jobs, with a chorus based on [a popular hymn], and the decorations featured—I SWEAR I am not making this up–balloons with pictures of dive-bombing airplanes dropping skulls. SKULLS. The slogan? “[Company] soars to new heights!”

    If I had a question, it would be “how do I respond to this stuff, other than ignoring the ridiculousness,” but if anyone has similar stories, or suggestions for making this even more painful or deliciously awkward, I am definitely open to hearing them.

    1. Stephanie*

      Whaaaaa? You have to be able to feed 50-60 people? That’s a crazy amount of people to expect a home cook to be able to feed.

      1. thehighercommonsense*

        I’m preeety sure they meant that 50-60 people total are coming, and we should scale our dishes appropriately, but after the dive-bombing skull balloons, I’m not so sure.

      3. anon who needs a name*

        Honestly, in that situation I’d just bake a tray of brownies and cut them up into very small pieces until I got to 60 and be all, “here’s my 60 piece food contribution”.

        1. Stephanie*

          Or make a bunch of salsa (maybe double a recipe) and be like “Hey! Everyone can take one chip and dip.”

    2. ZSD*

      Is the potluck mandatory or something? I’ve never heard of people contributing cash for a potluck. If people don’t want to cook, they just shouldn’t sign up to participate.

      1. thehighercommonsense*

        It’s a voluntold thing. You don’t have to participate! But you will be chased down until you do.

        1. Laura*

          This is when you smile and say “Oh, I’m so sorry. I have an unavoidable appointment that day, so I won’t be able to make it. I hope it goes well!”

    3. A. Nonymous*

      Woah, that’s horribly aggressive, isn’t it? I wouldn’t attend if I was expected to feed that many people from my home kitchen and I love to cook!

    4. Jadelyn*

      Wow with the bizarre guilt thing, like…okay? So I’m supposed to prioritize someone else’s ability to go straight home over my own ability to go straight home, even though YOU OFFERED THAT OPTION in the first place? That is so rude. I have chronic pain and fatigue problems that make stopping off at the store after work anything but “quick and easy”, and I would DEEPLY resent being scolded for trying to conserve my limited energy and stamina by taking an option that was OFFERED TO ME. Holy hell is that crappy of them.

        1. Sparkly Librarian*

          Now I’m curious about where you heard it then. (And maybe why you haven’t heard it recently.) I wasn’t born until the mid-eighties, but I was raised with this saying and hear it on the regular now.

          1. Florida*

            I think it comes from a military TV show or movie. I’m not sure which one, but I always thought it was a faux-military saying.

    6. CMT*

      Ugh, that sucks. And I thought I had it bad with monthly potlucks, that I mostly don’t go to anyway. We also have a cash option here, but one of the admins collects it the day of and orders pizza. I think it’s a system that works pretty well.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe you can find a dish shaped like a coffin to bring your food in, once emptied it could be used to catch all the falling skulls.

    8. Rubyrose*

      This does not sound enjoyable – who thinks it is? Expecting senior staff to feed an entire division? Have a personal appointment on that day that you cannot change.

      From the 80s – a holiday lunch, people were given the option of bringing a side dish or contributing money. This place was heavily male, so there was a lot of money contributed. However, people were contributing what would be the equivalent of $2.00 today. Party organizers decided by buy cheese and sliced meat platters from a local gourmet caterer. Do you know how expensive those are? For those of us who had to come at the end because we had work posts that could not be left without coverage, there was nothing left but a spoonful of a side dish and some parsley from the meat platter. It was not pretty and the organizers could not understand why some of us were upset. In the end, they never did a potluck again.

    9. NoTurnover*

      With the cash option, I would NOT have assumed that I was making someone else stop by the grocery store on their way home! That’s a really weird way to organize things. I would have assumed that the organizer would pool all the cash contributed and place an order through a restaurant or something for sandwiches, pizza, something along those lines. A little extra work but frankly less work than coordinating the potluck contributions of 50-60 people to make sure they add up to a balanced buffet.

      1. AliceBD*

        My division regularly does 40 person potlucks that are balanced. There’s a sign up sheet in an obvious and easy to get to location, and it has numbered slots divided by type (so x spaces for veggie, x spaces for dessert, etc). You write your name and what you’re bringing, first come first choice. A few emails go out telling people about what it’s for and when it is, including where the sign up sheet is, and encouraging everyone to sign up, although it’s not mandatory.

        The people who can’t/don’t want to bring something don’t have to, although they usually come to the talking portion of the event (15-20 mins of team bonding in the form of funny stories or trivia; nothing embarrassing or requires prep). You just bring a normal sized dish and there’s always more than enough food. We have a designated social committee who make sure we have paper goods and who send out emails and coordinate everything. All of this takes place during the workday in our office, although if you’re making something homemade you usually make it the night before. If you want to run out for 15 mins to the grocery store nearby and pick up something they made as your contribution, that’s also OK. I think some people give cash to the coordinator for the commercial sandwich platter we sometimes get, but I usually sign up for dessert and then either make box brownies or buy grocery store bakery cookies.

  30. Bookworm*

    I’m not sure if people have seen this yet or not, but this is a commencement speech from Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs (I think that’s the show) – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEuPmVAb8o.

    It’s called “Don’t Follow Your Passion” and I think it relates to some of the discussions we’ve had on the subject. A kind of fun 5 minute watch.

  31. echosparks*

    I have recently accepted an internal promotion at work. I went through a performance review for my current position for 2015, which was glowing. The raises based on performance don’t go through until after I have moved to my new position. I’m still a part of the same organization, just in a new role, should I still get the raise I earned based on my performance from last year? While my new role is a promotion, I took a pay cut to get it, so it matters to me more than if I had just gotten a raise anyway.

    1. Angela*

      I’m going to guess this is work-place dependent. At my last employer, a change in position meant a change in when you got raises (it would reset to be yearly on the date of the start of the new position). It was a big downside if you just wanted to switch departments and it didn’t come with pay bump, because you had to forfeit a raise for that year.

    2. CAA*

      This is just guess-work, but if you agreed to a new salary for the new position, it’s probably based on the new department’s budget, which won’t include a raise based on your previous performance.

      If the timing was such that you started the new job, then got the review for your old job, you can ask your new manager whether the raise would apply to your new position, but you have to take no for an answer. If the review happened before you actually started the new job, then I wouldn’t even ask.

    3. snowball*

      I have worked at places that give raises annually based on higher date/promotion date (so if you are promoted in June you are not given a raise until the next June) and other places where everyone gets raises at the same time each year, but your raise is pro-rated based on your time in a position (so if you would qualify for a 3% raise but you were only in the position for 6 months, your raise is actually 1.5%). Your raise for the promotion would account for any raises that you “missed out” on based on taking the promotion. (My mom worked at the second company too, took a promotion in November, and was not eligible for another raise for 14 months.)

      My guess is that you will not get a performance-based raise if you just accepted and moved to a promotional role, even if your salary is less, but I don’t know your office.

  32. SaviourSelf*

    A vent:
    It is so frustrating when applicants ignore and/or don’t read the requirements for a position! We have posted for a position that states a specific degree and license required for the position, 90% of the applicants have neither and don’t even both to acknowledge or address that it is listed as required and why they can do the position without it.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Sorry to hear that. I can understand that is frustrating.
      Possibly they are just filling out applications for unemployment, etc. so they can say they filled it out? (I know that is what some people say.)
      Or they just don’t read.
      I work on a committee for academia, and for crying out loud, most of the people have Ph.D.s and still cannot follow simple instructions such as “include your email on your submission” type of thing.
      Sympathy!

      1. SaviourSelf*

        They all say they’re currently working but most are wildly unqualified. I’m wondering if it is just a quirk of advertising on LinkedIn and people just hit apply because it is in their general skill set without looking at industry or qualifications.

        1. CMT*

          Do you have the LinkedIn apply (or whatever it’s called) set up? Like, the one where you just hit one button and you’ve applied? I know I’ve seen th0se and “applied” to things outside my skill level. Mostly just because they advertise it to me and it takes only one click, so why not?

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think a lot of people who see the degree requirements and still apply do so because they feel they can make a strong case for they they are still totally qualified.

      The license requirement, however? No, if a specific license is required and you don’t have it, then you need to do better at following instructions!

    3. ginger ale for all*

      I have heard stories, but have not actually seen the applications, where libraries are looking for librarians and require a masters in library science and people apply with a high school degree and say that they love to read.

      1. Marian the Librarian*

        I am a librarian that sometimes hires other librarians, and I have seen these applications. Definitely true.

      2. Library Director*

        Oh yes! We state on our application for experience, “Do NOT say ‘I like to read.'” Yet it still happens. I’d be more interested in their collections of left handed mittens or petrified food (I know a librarian that has the latter).

      3. Honeybee*

        I’ve heard stories from English professor friends about getting some applications like that for faculty positions – people who don’t have a PhD in English nor do any scholarship in English, but reason that they like to read so teaching collegiate literature classes should be easy enough.

    4. Slippy*

      Is it common to have both the degree and license? Also is your pay competitive for someone who has both?

      1. SaviourSelf*

        You cannot have the license without the degree, but can have the degree without the license. The license is really the key.

        Our pay and benefits are above market.

        1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

          If the license is key and you can’t have the license without the degree, I wonder if it might be helpful to take out the part referring to the degree and be extra super clear about the license being required. Since the degree seems to be what people are trying to argue against I wonder if it might be better to just not reference it at all. There are plenty of companies who require a degree for no real reason so I think it’s normal for people to question that. It’s much harder to argue against a specific license and since someone with the license would have the degree it seems like the license is the part you want to emphasize. Just a thought! Good luck though. I’m sure it’s frustrating to have to sift through resumes who clearly do not meet the minimum requirements.

          1. SaviourSelf*

            Thank you, good idea. It is certainly worth trying! I’m just annoyed I didn’t think of it!

            I love this community.

    5. Jadelyn*

      I hear you. My organization requires English/Spanish bilingual skills for like 75% of our positions because the main communities we serve tend to be Latino immigrant communities and a lot of our members speak Spanish primarily or solely. So I emphasize “bilingual REQUIRED” all over the place in our postings and yet I STILL have to weed through a ton of resumes that don’t have any mention of speaking Spanish at all. I can’t even imagine how much more frustrating it would be for something as specific as a required license and people applying without it!

      1. SaviourSelf*

        At least they’re making it easy for me to move them to the “no” pile and let them know that they won’t be moving forward. Silver lining and all that :-/

      2. NacSacJack*

        Ummm Jadelyn, do you have remote positions? A friend is moving to Des Moines and has been studying Spanish (Medical Translation) and needs a job.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Sadly, no…we’re a credit union and our branches are all in California, and the jobs pretty much have to be done on-site for all except certain executive and tech positions. Best of luck to your friend, though!

    6. Margali*

      OH YES!!! I spent hours going through a pile of resumes for a position that stated that 3-5 years experience was REQUIRED. I would have been ok with someone who included a cover letter that stated why they thought they could do the job with only, say, 2 years of experience. But the waste of my time reviewing resumes that showed ZERO experience, argh!

      1. Eden*

        My favorites are the ones who have zero direct relevant experience, when 3-5 years are required, whose cover letters tell me that upon further perusal of their resumes I will discover that they are “exceptionally qualified.” For what?

        I had one today where the applicant referenced their practice of meditative self-care through painting as a qualification. The range of application quality is amazingly broad. The terrible ones make me very sad though. I picture them sitting in an empty room wondering why they never hear back and it makes me feel awful.

    7. Anxa*

      Is there a way you could ensure there is no ambiguity about that?

      For years I would avoid applying for jobs where I hadn’t met all of the requirements. I’m getting bolder now because people (here and elsewhere) have made a case that requirements can be a wish list.

      As an applicant, it can be very difficult to determine how literally you should take the requirements.

      If I see two sections, one with “minimum” and one with “preferred,” I do not submit my resume if I don’t have the minimum. But even in these cases it can be tricky if there’s a really large employer with a form job ad and it seems like someone wrote up a job ad, then tried to make it fit into the form ad and you can’t tell how intentional things are. In fact, I didn’t apply for a job where I didn’t have a minimum requirement (one year experience), then had someone ask why I didn’t apply…knowing I was looking for a similar job. I said I had 6 months, not one year, and he laughed. So…it can be hard to tell.

      Maybe just spell it out more clearly?

      1. Anxa*

        Also,
        I know this is a vent more than anything, but I’m wondering if perhaps there’s something about the licensing requirements that’s driving applicants to do this.

        Is there some sort of experience-license-experience catch 22 circle? For example, I had a license lapse because I didn’t get full-time work with a certified agency without two years. Now I never will, even though the county hiring freezes have lifted, because I can’t afford to retake the course to get a new license. Similarly, I have considered trying to break into a very closely related field, but in order to licensed you need a certain level of experience. Yet all the more entry level jobs still require that license. It seems like without an orchestrated internship or other intervention there’s no way to break in.

        Perhaps that’s part of it?

      2. MoinMoin*

        I hear you on this. Especially because I often hear it repeated that men will apply for a job if they have, say 60% of the qualifications and women will only apply if they meet 90% (or whatever the stats are) with the moral of the story being to lean in. But then I read stuff like this! Ah, it’s always a balancing game!

  33. Stephanie*

    This is less a question and more a general comment.

    I sprained my knee Wednesday during my kickboxing class (er, fingers crossed it’s just a sprain). It seems to be feeling a little better, but I’m still limping (knee is stiff). The day of, I called out at work because I was barely able to walk more than a few feet. I go in last night and my big boss freaked out a little (knee is a bit better, but I still have a noticeable limp). I work in an industrial facility that isn’t handicap-friendly and he was worried doing my rounds would aggravate my knee further and turn it into an on-the-job injury. Told me to call HR and get their take.

    Thing is, I was actually planning to give notice next week, with my last day being at the end of July. The optics of it don’t look great (but I’m leaving, so I suppose that doesn’t really matter). I also don’t want to go through a formal accommodation process when I’m leaving so soon. Thoughts?

    2. RR*

      Can you tell your boss you really appreciate his concern, you’ll think about this over the weekend/next few days (not sure of your work schedule) and see how your feel?

        3. Laura*

          No! My boss just broke her foot. Well, her child did it, actually. Hope your toe gets better soon!

        4. Audiophile*

          Ooof, feel better.

          I’ve never broken anything. *knocks on wood*

          Although, last year I thought I might have broken my foot or ankle, I never did go to the doctor and the pain eventually went away, so it was probably just a bad sprain.

      2. Stephanie*

        Update: I just called out tonight. I talked to HR and they said I’d need to use up my sick leave/personal days/annual leave and then use FMLA or short-term disability. My Big Boss was like “Well, you have the benefits. That’s what they’re there for. Come in after the weekend…”

    3. A. Nonymous*

      As someone who had a nasty knee injury in a TKD event, DO NOT stress your knee! If your body’s telling you to back off, take the time. If you’re leaving the job soon it doesn’t matter. You can’t plan an injury

    4. Construction Safety*

      Typically we would require that the employee get a full release from their doctor prior to returning to work. For those who cannot afford to go, we would send them to our Occ.Med. on our dime. We will supply the Dr. with an accurate job description. We don’t typically do modified work for non-work related injuries but YMMV.

  34. ACK298*

    Asking for a friend/colleague:
    We work in a very specific field and her position is unionized. She has gone from being an intern to an assistant a full-time temp (twice) of over six months. Recently a full-time permanent position opened up , but when she applied she was told that since she is a temporary employee (and therefore not in the union) she could not apply during the internal posting period but had to wait for the external posting period. The position has now gone external, and she has gone to apply and was told that she will not be considered for the position because one of the internal candidates (that was not hired for this positions) is in the union, and they cannot “justify” hiring my friend (who has more of the specific experience and training for this position) because of union rules dictating years of employment when considering candidates who are both in the union/internal candidates – essentially if two internal candidates who apply have comparable qualifications the one who has 8 years employment gets the job over the one with 6 years employment. However, as I mentioned before, my friend is neither in the union (you have to be a full-time permanent) employee at this organization, and was told that she would be considered an external candidate during the internal posting/hiring period.

    What should/can she do? Should she speak to HR or the hiring manager?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’m NOT an expert on union rules, but I doubt there’s much she can do. It seems like they’ve made their decision (and the decision is likely based on union rules that they hire people based on seniority. If they hired your friend over the other internal candidate they’d get into big trouble with the union).

      Appealing decisions like these rarely works out well anyways.

      1. ACK298*

        That’s what I told her. I think what is frustrating her is she was just told “we’d hire you if you weren’t in the temp position right now, because you’re an external candidate but not REALLY external so the internal candidate might complain to the union and we don’t know what they’d say since you’ve been working as a temp.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          They could have asked the union what their stance would be. But they did not. It sounds like they had someone in mind for the job anyway.

          I have been through this stuff. Please let your friend know that the rest of her years with the company would go like this, always another wrinkle, always an unforeseen.
          Ask her to consider if this is something she really wants.

      2. J.B.*

        Probably. But maybe she could go to HR and ask for advice on this situation. Like are there other opportunities she might be able to pursue, or what is within the rules/contract.

    2. Natalie*

      Seems to me it wouldn’t hurt to at least ask – she could present these two somewhat conflicting instructions and see what they say. The worst outcome is the outcome she’s got now, after all.

    3. Jaydee*

      My guess is that some or all of the following things are true.
      1) The bargaining agreement says that if there is an opening in a certain job classification it first has to be posted internally to see if anyone already in that classification wants to transfer. If multiple people in the same classification want to transfer, the one with the most seniority gets picked. This is really common to ensure that the most senior employees get first crack at an opening on a better shift or in a different branch office.

      2) The bargaining agreement says that temps/part-timers are treated as external applicants for this purpose. So a temp who has been there 9 months doesn’t get priority over a full-time, permanent employee who has been there 6 months for the good shifts/offices.

      3) Wakeen is a permanent employee who applied for the opening and wasn’t chosen. Your friend Jane is a temp but has more experience in some aspects of the job than Wakeen does

      4) Management/HR thinks the union will contest the hiring of a temp when a permanent employee applied and was turned down.

      It’s possible the union really would contest this. They might see it as a way to circumvent the seniority rules and the bargaining agreement. That’s actually kind of legit.

      It’s also possible the union wouldn’t care but management is gun shy or just wants to get a jab in at the union.

      It’s also possible that management/HR is misunderstanding the bargaining agreement in some way.

      I would suggest that your friend ask HR about it and also ask a union rep in her office about it. That way she gets both sides of the picture and should know pretty clearly where she stands.

      Often where this type of situation comes in is where management wants the flexibility to hire temporary workers but without offering them all the benefits that permanent employees get under the bargaining agreement. It sucks for the temp worker because that may mean they don’t get insurance, PTO, 401(k), etc. or it may just mean they do t get seniority for internal jobs. But it also protects the permanent workers from having those benefits gradually eroded. Why hire a permanent worker who is subject to the bargaining agreement when you can just hire a “temporary” worker with no benefits, grievance rights, etc., keep renewing their “temporary” contract for a year or two (not so temporary anymore) and then promote them ahead of a permanent employee who has been there longer?

    4. Stephanie*

      I’d speak to HR. Worst case, they’ll say she’s SOL. I was in a sort of similar situation about a year ago (except I was looking for management jobs at my company). That being said, she might be stuck. Usually, those bargaining agreements are pretty ironclad.

  35. RVA Cat*

    This is just tangentially work-related, but….
    A co-worker in another department died this past weekend after a short battle with cancer, at an obscenely young age. We were acquaintances who bonded for while when we had kids a few months apart two years ago. I didn’t even know she was sick, just thought she’d moved on. Now it’s just eating at me. I will sign the card and contribute to the fund for her kids (the toddler and another in elementary school) and I feel like I should do more but I have no idea what. It’s just eating me alive right now, I just turned 40 and she was younger than me, plus I had a health scare a few weeks ago. The more I try to push it out of my mind the more I obsess on it. Your thoughts?

    1. Dawn*

      Does your office have an EAP? Call them and see if they can recommend a grief counselor, or maybe even a group grief therapy you could go to. Death and mortality is hard, don’t be afraid to ask for help processing.

      And many, many hugs to you!

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      Since you didn’t know her well, is there another colleague you could ask about something you can do? Gift card or something? A colleague just lost her husband and we got her a massage and a restaurant gift card. We plan to do it again in 4 or 5 months when so many people will have forgotten and moved on.

    3. J.B.*

      That is so tough, I’m sorry. Restaurant gift cards are great, especially since they will probably have lots of food in the short term but not in the long term. In a few months you could offer to host the kids for a playdate or something. (Break for dad and fun for kids.)

      1. RVA Cat*

        Restaurant gift card sounds like a great idea – that’s what we did for one of my colleagues when she lost her father. I can have my son “sign” a sympathy card with crayon scribble or a handprint too maybe.

        Re: EAP etc., I have a therapist but haven’t gone in awhile, I think it’s time to make an appointment. The health scare in question was a miscarriage so that’s it’s own grief, which I thought I was over but maybe not.

        1. Laura*

          Your son participating in a card for the family would be a really nice gesture. I am so sorry.

    4. BronxRosie*

      First, don’t beat yourself up over this. You had no way of knowing what was going on in her life and were kind to her while she was living. The father of the children is probably struggling to find a new normal. If you have children around the same age and live close enough, taking the children out for a fun day with your kids may be welcomed. Dropping the father a note for his kids (or her parents if they survive), with a happy memory about your co-worker is valuable. If you have any pictures from company events, share them as well. Be kind to yourself. You sound like a good person with a big heart.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Sounds good. One of the reasons I was beating myself up is that I like the playdate idea, but I’m scared the kids will start talking about their mom dying and my son will get scared. That’s so selfish but he’s only 2.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Can someone help you build a plan of what you will say to your son if the other kids do start talking about their late mom?

        2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

          They very well may speak about their mother’s death, and only you know your child’s capacity for handling a situation like that.

          I would suggest doing the play date. I think it would be good for the kids, as well as your son. Children can always surprise us with their resiliency and capacity to handle things far outside of what we expect.

          However, before going, I would pay a visit to your local library and ask the children’s librarian for assistance with finding age-appropriate books on death and dying. Some I found through a quick browse include: Goodbye Sheepie (loss of a family pet); When Dinosaurs Die; and Rabbityness.

    5. A. Nonymous*

      I would absolutely donate to the fund and I echo the advice to see if anyone closer to her knows if there’s anything more that you could do. If you can’t help out elsewhere then maybe donate your time or something to a charity in her name?

    6. Intern Wrangler*

      One other idea would be to write a personal card with some remembrances, so that her children would learn more about her and about who she was at work and have something to look at when they get older.

      1. Jaydee*

        That is a good idea. As children, your coworker’s kids will hear those stories and know that their mom had friends at work who cared about her and they will know she did important, meaningful grown-up things. As adults, they will look back at those stories and see their mom as a full, multi-dimensional person.

    7. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      I responded on another part of the thread of answers, but also wanted to say this for you, as well as everyone else.

      PLEASE, everyone, take the time to make a will, and have plans in place for if you die. Once you’re in your late twenties, you need to have a will. You need to have a place where you keep regularly updated passwords for everything from your Facebook to your bank accounts. You need to know how your family will pay for your funeral (at least $10K), and you definitely need to know what will happen to your organs if they’re viable.

      We never anticipate passing away at a young age, but when you see it happen so close to you, death becomes very real.

      My condolences, RVA. Don’t be hesitant to speak with someone if you need to!

  36. MAB*

    Any advice on how to politely tell an employee that things that she did 20 years ago, though important to her, are no longer relevant in today’s work force. I am not talking regulations or the like, more like the hours and the holidays she had to work.

    1. Me234*

      “When was that, Gwen? Oh, 1996? Wow. That was 20 years ago. A lot has changed since then. We do it this way now….”

    2. knitcrazybooknut*

      In a similar situation, coworkers and I referred to these stories as “This one time? At band camp?”

      1. Clever Name*

        I’ve actually said that to a coworker who was launching into some irrelevant story. They laughed. :)

  37. bb-great*

    Question on addressing employment gaps!

    I finished undergrad in May 2011 and was unemployed until I started grad school in August 2012. Then I finished grad school in May 2014 and didn’t find a job until January 2016. The first gap was wanting to work before grad school, and finding that a BA with little other experience was a tough sell. The second was the bad job market in my field, compounded by a recurring health problem that made me reluctant to take the standard advice of being willing to move cross-country for an entry-level position. (This health issue is under control now.)

    Good things: in both cases, I left my jobs just because I graduated and was no longer eligible for those positions and that’s clear from my resume. I also think I otherwise have a decent employment history for this point in my career, good references, and have twice been hired back by a former supervisor (internship led to student job, different student job led to the job I have now).

    Bad things: Two very long gaps and really nothing to show for them. I wasn’t doing the kind of professional development, etc things I could have been doing.

    The job I’m working in now is temporary and will be done by December at the latest. Hiring can take months in my field, so I’m looking now. I know I need to proactively address these gaps, but I’m not sure what kind of wording I should use in my cover letter. Advice?

    1. Laura*

      Say something like “I was unable to work during [dates] due to health issues which have since been resolved. I am especially excited for XXX opportunity because…”

      Just keep it vague, professional, and make it clear that you are no longer unwell.

      2. Christopher Tracy*

        I wouldn’t mention anything about health issues in a cover letter. If you get an interview and they ask about the gap, that’s when I’d use this language. Unconscious bias is real, and talking about a long-term illness (even if you claim it’s now under control) could lead to someone questioning your ability to perform the job.

  38. Turanga Leela*

    Alison, I finally listened to your appearance on the Dear Prudence podcast, and I was so excited when I heard your voice! I hope this isn’t too weird to say, but I have a voice like yours: higher-pitched but not squeaky, a little breathy, very traditionally feminine. I sometimes worry that people won’t take me seriously at work because of it, and I’m so encouraged that you’ve been an effective manager with a soft voice.

    I’m not knocking either of our voices—I really like my voice and people have mostly responded well to it. I just don’t hear a lot of successful women who speak like me, and it was SO encouraging to hear.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I remember listening to one of Alison’s podcast interviews last year (??? something like that) and being surprised that she sounded nothing like she did in my head.

      I, too, have one of those voices.

    3. Anxa*

      Very similar here (well, have a very female, high pitched voice).

      My voice is so high; I feel like it doesn’t match my personality at all, for years I hated it. Plus, internalized misogyny and not wanting such a markedly gendered voice.

      I feel like I have to yell a lot (not scream, but like….really really work hard at sending my voice out into the world) just to order food at a restaurant, etc.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        People with hearing loss often have a lot of trouble hearing my voice. Something about the pitch of it makes it hard to hear. I am great at projecting if I’m in a professional context, but when I’m at home, people are always asking me to speak up.

  39. Don't say my name!*

    I wrote a couple of weeks ago about my job changing under a new manager, and going on a PIP because panic, etc., and asking for accommodations due to my math LD. I think I also posted (or maybe not) that I had also talked to my boss last week in a weekly check-in and she showed me the spreadsheets. It was data entry and the formulas were already set up, kind of like the one I’m working with now. I thought (and said) Okay, I can do that–it’s similar to what I’m doing now.

    Today, we had the meeting with HR and my boss to discuss possible accommodations, and I found out more about the requirements this position will need to take on. It’s not just the entry; it’s verification and analytics, which requires pulling the number data weekly and checking its accuracy for budget forecasting purposes.

    The latter of which I cannot do.

    They still want me to take the Excel training, and I’m fine with that–I said that it might actually be illustrative of what I can and cannot do, since I might be able to get to a certain point with it and then no further.

    HR said there was a tech editing position open, internally, which she was trying to find out more info on, and which I could apply for internally. Both she and NewBoss said it sounded right up my alley, and she read the short description and it sounded like something I could do. I don’t know for sure because But I would have to apply for it, and there is no guarantee I would get it. (I plan to apply anyway.) If I don’t, I will be unemployed because I cannot do this job the way they need me to. There is no accommodation because the person in the position will need to be the one who verifies the data. There is no other place I can work that pays what this place does in this area. It’s the gold standard for employers around here.

    I. Am. Screwed. Completely, utterly, 100% screwed. The nightmare is happening.

    Tl:dr So basically, there is no accommodation that will enable me to do what they want/need me to do, and I WILL lose this job.

    2. GOG11*

      I’m so sorry that you’re in this situation. I hope you can transition to the new role.

    4. SophieChotek*

      So sorry to hear that! I hope they can find a different role for you. Sympathy.

    5. Don't say my name!*

      Thanks. :(
      Just to clarify, I would have to pull data from the sheets for a weekly report, and check the numbers to make sure they’re correct. My LD precludes the latter; I can’t tell whether a total is accurate or not. If I did it by hand, I couldn’t be sure if it were accurate or not. Since the numbers go to corporate for forecasting, they HAVE to be accurate. It’s basically accounting shiz, which I have been trying to avoid (and thought I had).

      She said this is what they need the position to be able to do. So basically, I have to be able to do it–there is no someone else checking to see if it’s correct. It’s not just data entry, which I COULD do.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        I’m a little confused here. Excel doesn’t screw up summations. Is it possible they’re just asking you to make sure individual numbers get put in the right spots? If it’s a sheet that pulls numbers from elsewhere and into formulas, and then only displays the output, then you can set up the spreadsheet in such a way so that you can see where each number is coming from, verify it against it’s source value, and then check the summation to ensure it includes all the values (by verifying all numbers are highlighted by the formula, not by redoing the summation yourself).

        It’s tough to explain without seeing the spreadsheet myself, but an Excel guru or power user could probably set you up with an accommodated spreadsheet. It might be worth hiring a consultant for an hour or two if there’s nobody in your office that can do this.

        1. Don't say my name!*

          As I said above, they still want me to take the Excel training, and I’m fine with that–I said that it might actually be illustrative of what I can and cannot do, since I might be able to get to a certain point with it and then no further.

          I cannot see if a total is correct. So I wouldn’t be able to tell if I mis-entered something on the spreadsheet from looking at the total–I might be able to if I spent an hour going over EACH! and EVERY! number. But even then, it’s not guaranteed to be accurate. If I make a mistake ANYWHERE, I don’t see it. It’s invisible. I doubt I’m going to have time to do that–the department I currently assist is very small, but we’re adding a shizload of people with this merge. Which will add to my workload and so far I’m the only admin.

          Anything other than basic math that does not include division, fractions, percentages (she emphasized this), and any kind of averages, etc., is extremely difficult for me. I told them exactly what I can do and how I would have to do things–with very detailed step-by-step instructions. But I don’t think that will help if they’re asking me to do something I’m unable to do with any degree of accuracy. (i.e. the percentages, etc.).

          NewBoss said the numbers are very important–corporate uses them for forecasting and they HAVE to be accurate. I can’t guarantee that, because I know from experience how difficult understanding even the most basic things can be for me.

          Analogy: it’s a choir and I’m a soloist, and they need someone who can hit all the notes. They don’t want William Shatner doing a tone-deaf recitative.

    6. Tau*

      I am so, so sorry. That is awful. :( I really hope the editing position pans out. I just – I’m furious on your behalf that they’ve changed your job out from under you to something your disability precludes you from doing and are now going “oh well, too bad” about it. You don’t deserve this.

      1. Don't say my name!*

        Thanks–I don’t know; maybe the training will help us find a way for me to do it. I told my boss this, but I also said I don’t want to promise it can, either.

        Well I wanted things to change in my life, but every time I ask the universe for that, or a door opens, it only opens onto a worse thing. :( Maybe this will be the good thing….

        *really wants to believe that but is just so tired of it all*

        1. Windchime*

          My prediction is that the Excel teacher will be an attractive single man who is looking for Ms. Right. Maybe that’s the door?

          Hang in there. Fingers crossed for the editing job.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Me, too. Scary stuff. Hang tough and know that a bunch of people are sending good vibes your way.

        1. Don't say my name!*

          Thanks, you guys.

          I hope this works out but there are no guarantees. If I have to leave and go back to front desk work I will fecking die. I hate it so much I can’t even stand to do it one hour a week. But maybe I’ll get the other job and then won’t have to (please please please please please).

    8. Windchime*

      Hugs, friend. I’m in a situation that’s not exactly the same but similar enough that I can relate to how you are feeling. It’s super scary and upsetting. Take the Excel class and apply for the other job; please know that your friends here are all supporting you and care about how this turns out for you.

      1. Don't say my name!*

        *hugs back* Thanks you guys. It means a lot that you care. The universe doesn’t seem to!

        I have NOT told my heli-mum* about this, because she has a friend who is an educational advocate and I really don’t like her–she kept creeping on me a few years ago–talking to me and fishing for info, etc. I think she wanted me to be her poster child for LD people or something. Ew ew ew ew. I finally had to ask my mum to call her off and stop talking to her about me. I’m afraid Mum will tell her if I say anything. I’m trying to handle it myself like an adult of my advanced age would!

        *helicopter

  40. Susan C*

    Yay, finally managed to have decent timing with this thread! I’ve been trying for three months now to yell about NewJob :D

    You guys, it’s awesome. Thanks to everyone here for moral support and great advice! I really, really like the people, the work, and so far even the clients. I like that we’re all a bunch of big damn nerds, and that there’s a sense of cohesiveness through the entire company even though we’re spread out on three major locations on different continents (and a bunch of additional satellite offices), and many people travel or work from home a lot.

    I also like that they screen well (and I mean 4 separate in-person interviews for an entry level job well) and only hire people they know will have their heart in it, which means once you’re in, you’re given a lot of freedom and trust.

    I think the only worry I have is that a) eventually, I might have a hard time transferring to another company, because the role I fill now is not necessarily something very common, and b) my growth potential within the company is somewhat limited by my (un)willingness to relocate internationally.

    2. Camellia*

      And you never know, things change, and in the future you might be able to consider relocating.

  41. Caledonia*

    For those who have been following me:

    Still no job but I may be able to move, pending everything going through with the flat sale ok (I officially accepted an offer).

    But….I really want to travel for a month before moving and starting somewhere all over again. It’s just that there some really decent job opportunities up at the moment :(

    Oh, what to do?

      1. Caledonia*

        Now is the best time though I think. I’m not going to have this much money and opportunity again…I’ll see what I can work out.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Congrats on flat selling.
      Glad to hear you have decent job opportunities!
      (Could you interview and negotiate start date? I mean with moving, etc.? Two-three might be reasonable.)

  42. SNS*

    There’s a bit of drama going on in my office right now, and while I have no intention getting involved, I was curious to hear others’ thoughts. I have a very, very amazing boss (also the owner of the company) who caters lunch for the office (about 30 people) everyday. Our office manager is in charge of ordering the food and cleaning up afterwards.

    Recently she went on her honeymoon and my coworker took over her responsibilities for the week. He and our HR/accountant (owner’s sister) decided to reform the office manager’s system. They had a long conversation in our (mine and the coworker) shared office about how office manager ordered too much food and would take the leftovers home for her husband to bring in to his office the next day. Turns out ordering less food didn’t work out and they ended up having to run out for more.

    When the office manager returned she wasn’t surprised by their failed attempt, but HR/accountant told her she should stop taking the leftovers home in case people wanted to eat them throughout the week. Now our fridge gets full by Wednesday and everything pretty much gets tossed on Friday. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with the office manager taking home the food as now it seems like it’s just going to waste, but I get the argument that the boss is paying to feed our office, not the office manager’s husband’s. What do you guys think?

    1. Me234*

      Does the boss give her permission to take the leftovers home? Boss is paying for it, I’d say that’s his call.

    2. Pwyll*

      We used to do this too (though nowhere near daily! Wow). Our system was: put it in the fridge overnight and at the end of the next day, whatever was left was up for grabs to take home. That gave coworkers the opportunity to have another lunch out of it if they wanted, but also wouldn’t waste food.

      2. neverjaunty*

        Yes, this. That eliminates the concern about ‘deliberately over-ordering food so as to take home’, and gives everybody a fair shot at the leftovers, without wasting food.

    3. Miss Elaine E-Us*

      My first thought is, “Where do I apply! The boss caters lunch? Every. Day? For 30 people?”
      Based on the post, I think all involved should be very wary of wrecking a very generous perk.
      Concerning what the policy, I don’t know. The office manager has taken on a pretty demanding role: feeding 30 people every day can’t be easy. Letting her take the leftovers doesn’t seem like too much to ask. However, if it’s to the point where she’s saying, “Honey! Will you want Filet Mignon or Duck A’L’orange for lunch tomorrow?” then there needs to be a change.
      Is the staff complaining about her taking the leftovers and not leaving it for everyone else? Or is the HR/accountant/owner’s sister questioning the expenditure? Are there limits as to what people can order?

      Wow! Catered lunch. Every. Day. My flabber has been gasted.

      1. SNS*

        I know! I feel insanely lucky I found such a great company to work for. Even if this perk got ruined I’d still love working there, but it certainly doesn’t hurt. They started it when the company was only a few people and luckily have continued it as the company’s grown.

        We have a schedule of restaurants and none of them are particularly fancy, nor does she ever order something she knows people in the office won’t eat. It’s like trays of sandwiches and salads, that sort of thing.

        I’ve never personally heard people complain, but according to coworker and the owner’s sister, people have. I think it was a combo of those complaints and the expenditure that made them want to reconsider how lunch was being handled.

    4. Nicole*

      Bottom line is as long as the boss doesn’t care, no one else should. I do like how Pwyll’s office would handle it, though. That way everyone feels like they had a fair shake at the leftovers but no food goes to waste. Either way, I hope it resolves itself without too much drama or the boss deciding it isn’t worth the hassle because that is very generous!

  43. raisedeyebrow*

    Hi, all! Long time lurker, first time poster. I’ve got kind of weird/good-ish situation that I’d like to get some opinions on. I’ve been working at my first professional job at a Fortune 500 company for about seven months now. I was hired straight out of grad school, and I have a master’s degree in a field that is tangentially related to the job I was hired for. I’ve been learning quickly and was put in charge of my company’s merit process (over 5,000 employees) whenever the person I was supposed to be shadowing/helping had a family emergency and ended up being out for that whole month. It was hectic and stressful, but I learned a ton and got a lot of valuable exposure to executives. That was three and a half months in.

    I was hired at $40k and negotiated a $3k sign-on bonus for relocation since I was moving from another state. After the merit process I was pulled aside by my boss and given a $6k (15%) raise with a short but heartfelt “Good work.” My job is project-based and kind of feast-or-famine. About six months out of the year are spent preparing for and working the two merit processes for my company, but I have learned that the other six are very, very slow. I’m in the middle of one of those very slow periods, so I don’t feel like I’ve done much of anything. I have a ton of free time that I try to spend productively, but overall I feel like a bump on a log. However, my boss pulled me aside again two weeks ago and gave me ANOTHER raise–this time $5k. I’m making 27.5% more than I was when I was hired seven months ago. I was (and am) bewildered, especially since my boss didn’t really give me any more feedback except, “You do good work.”

    I was so surprised and flustered the second time that I didn’t ask for any more information. I know that both raises were personally approved by our VP, so they’re above-board. Do I ask him what I did to deserve a second raise? Or am I just suffering from imposter syndrome?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Wow! congrats! If they are pulling you aside and giving you raises…I’d say you’re just suffering from imposter syndrome! congrats!

      1. raisedeyebrow*

        Thank you! I still feel so surprised! My boss is a direct report to our VP, and he mentioned that he, our VP, and our Sr VP have been “talking” about me, but he won’t give me any more details than that. I guess I’ll cross my fingers and hope that it’s more good news!

    2. NacSacJack*

      Take the money and run!!! (To Best Buy, Bed, Bath & Beyond, Macy’s) Whoo hoo!! 27% increase in 6 months. hmmmm, if that happened to me, I’d be at the Mercedes dealer or maybe the Mini dealership

    3. Reba*

      How does your current (or starting) pay align with the market rate for your field and location?

      At my spouse’s first professional job, he got a 50% raise after a few months! But, he was definitely underpaid at the start, and once it was clear that he’s actually really good at their stuff, the owners offered the raise (no ask or negotiation, just “we can see this is what you’re worth”).

      Congrats!

  44. Kristine*

    Just coming here to rant and possibly get some advice?

    I work for a school district that is notoriously dysfunctional. Part of my job is to plan events for the students, and GOOD LORD is it stressful!

    The process of planning events is so convoluted and slow that sometimes I won’t be able to finish planning events in time for them to occur. I had to cancel a small event that I planned TWO MONTHS in advance because my supervisors didn’t get back to me in time for me to order the food.

    It’s also difficult to plan because we’re not informed of deadlines. For instance, the deadline to submit event proposals was June 17. I had no idea there even was a deadline until it was mentioned to me by another person while discussing an unrelated matter. (By the way, I went to this other person after my supervisors were unresponsive YET AGAIN. This person got me the info I’d been trying to get for 3 weeks in under 10 minutes.)

    So, anyway, I scrambled to get the proposals done and they were submitted. The first event I proposed is supposed to be happening on July 8; it’s July 1 and I have no idea whether it’s been approved…and I can’t make the reservation until after I know it’s been approved. And who knows if I’ll even be able to make the reservation; the district has a reputation for not paying vendors, which leads to many, many places refusing to work with us.

    I’ve started not informing the students of events until I’m 99% sure they’re going to happen, because I don’t want to disappoint them. Then we have to scramble to get permission slips and/or recruit students to attend the event. It’s stressful for everyone involved.

    Does anyone have any advice on how to change this? I think it’s a cultural problem within the district, so I’m not sure how much I can actually change about this. :(

    1. animaniactoo*

      Have you given a proposal deadline by which you must receive approval in order to be able to make the event happen? Giving them a deadline with logical reasons like “need 2 weeks notice to book a location, plus 1 additional week to notify students and collect permission slips” gives you something to push back against them with “I need to know the status of this approval”, and lets you assume that the event is not approved if you don’t get an answer and pull the plug on it before it gets to the scrambling to make it happen phase.

      It also gives you coverage when people ask why events aren’t happening.

      1. Kristine*

        This is a great idea; thank you!

        I’m doubtful that implementing deadlines of my own will change my supervisor’s actions; however, as you said, it will help to have a paper trail that proves I tried my best to plan events.

        It’s really a shame, too, because my supervisor’s incompetence means that the students are missing out on (I think!) great activities. :/

    2. KR*

      Since you seem to be the go-to event person, can you reach out to someone and point out the larger pattern about how the approval process for events makes it nearly impossible to do your job? Maybe the whole process for doing events can be revamped – and it has a good chance of happening if you can dream up a system for your supervisor/the principal/schoolboard to just approve.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      There is no point to having events planned if people are not going to work with you.

      Yet, I know what I see around me. It’s totally acceptable not to return phone calls/emails and so on. It’s almost like a cultural change would have to occur and it would have to come from the TOP person on down.
      I would start keeping notes of which events fail and why. You may find patterns and figure out work-arounds. You may be able to build a core group of people who do respond and get more success that way.

      I have seen schools totally ignore other groups in the community. I have also seen schools flagrantly disobey water conservation orders and other things from local government. The problems run deep.

  45. frequentflyer*

    I joined my new company 1 day before the cut-off for eligibility for bonus. During the HR presentation for bonus and increment computation, the HR guy mentioned that while bonus will be pro-rated for new hires, annual salary increment will not. During appraisal time, I hit all my expectations, my boss said he has no issues with my work at all, but he warned me that my salary increment would be pro-rated. (I didn’t question him at the time.) Then I got my letter from HR and saw a miserable increment ($50, like less than 1%). I thought, the company’s doing badly, maybe I should wait it out. I mentioned to my boss how bad the increment was, and he just remarked, “it’s too bad, this company is really strict about pro-rating the salary increment”. Then one of my colleagues from another corporate department (I’m corporate too) who joined at the same time as I did, mentioned that her increment was like 4% (not pro-rated). Now I’m really pissed. What should I do?! The original HR guy who did the presentation had left the company, there is no HR policy or slides of the original presentation. I asked my other friend in HR and she mentioned the percentage salary increment was instructed by my boss. I don’t know whether my boss or HR is lying to me. What should I do? I now feel extremely pissed off and unhappy.

    1. frequentflyer*

      For further info, when I joined the company, they did not meet my salary expectations. I’m wondering whether my boss did this to me because I never express displeasure about anything (e.g. Low salary etc) because I don’t like confrontation and I’m generally very pleasant to work with. Am I a pushover? I like to think I’m this way because I trust that I will be remunerated fairly. I fear he has a misconception that he is remuneration me well (just because I don’t complain) when the truth is, he is not.

  46. Crylo Ren*

    It’s killing me to say “thanks but no thanks” to recruiters who reach out with amazing-sounding jobs in the fields I want to break into and with the title I want. But I’ve only been in my current role for 3 months and there are a lot of things that I want to accomplish here. The things that I dislike about the job aren’t bad enough that I can’t commit to staying at least a year. Plus, I’m already taking active steps towards a career change so there’s my eventual exit strategy.

    But it’s hard having to turn things down when, if these roles had opened up earlier this year, I would have totally leapt at the opportunity without any hesitation. :(

    1. Susan C*

      Maybe twist it into “No thanks, but can I reach out to you in the future?” or some way else casually indicating interest in keeping in touch? So many people complain about not knowing where to start with networking, and that’s some prime opportunities right there :) (assuming the jobs are real and they actually read your profile before contacting you, you know how it is)

      1. SophieChotek*

        Good point!
        Plus showing you are committed to your job/fulfilling what you committed to might go over well with (most) recruiters???

        1. Crylo Ren*

          I’m hoping that’s the case! The vast majority of recruiters are very understanding and seem open to keeping the lines of communication going, which is nice.

          The silver lining about turning these down is that I can forward them over to my former boss, who is also actively looking for a new role due to impending layoffs, so it’s not a total loss if I can help her move to a new role as well. Just hurts a little bit when I realize that I kind of ended up in the less desirable position and am now stuck here.

    2. H.C.*

      Well, since the recruiters’ jobs to filled those empty spots ASAPs, so of course they’ll try to market it to you (and who knows how many other candidates) as amazing opportunities.

      That being said, I do second others in keeping the conversation open with those recruiters; you might even want to consider inquiring more about these opportunities, to see if those recruiters are honest in their job fit assessment or just overselling those positions to you (or, if the job is indeed so great that you might actually reconsider staying in your current role for at least a year.)

      1. Crylo Ren*

        That’s true. I’m trying to remind myself that the role I’m in now, which I dislike, was also marketed to me as a plum role. So who’s to say that it wouldn’t end up worse for me in the end?

  47. GOG11*

    A sick time etiquette/norms question. At my workplace, when I am out sick, or have an unanticipated or pre-planned doctor’s appointment, I just email the folks I report to and say I’ll be out of the office. If I have to leave unexpectedly (like I become ill during the workday – thanks, migraines), I email to let them know that, too. In none of these scenarios would getting permission be required.

    Lately (like for several several weeks) medical problems have seriously disrupted or completely prevented my sleeping. Is it reasonable to take unplanned (not for a doctor’s appointment) sick time at the beginning of the day? So far, I’ve just come in and toughed it out, but it’s leaving me further and further behind for sleep. I’m working with my doctor, and luckily I’ll be on vacation here soon, but I’m wondering how that sort of thing would be viewed. It seems like if I’m well enough to work, I should be well enough to work at *start time* and deciding to come in late just so I can get enough sleep would be like making my own schedule. Am I being overly rigid, or am I correct in thinking this would be unprofessional?

    1. Manders*

      When that happens to me I usually email when I’m awake in the middle of the night, so my supervisors can see the time stamp and realize that someone who was up at that hour isn’t fit to work. I don’t have the kind of supervisors who check email around the clock, though, so I might not do it if they would be woken up by an incoming message.

      1. Laura*

        It’s definitely important to know how your supervisors handle things like this. I get emails from my boss at all hours, and she’s not really good at understanding that MOST people actually sleep through the night. :/

        1. GOG11*

          I have only ever gotten emails from my supervisors during business hours. We’re not in a super fast-paced industry and there isn’t really a reason to work round the clock. My supervisors/bosses are pretty laid back, and express concern/show they care when I’m ill (as opposed to being miffed or anything but totally reasonable and understanding). I think I’m just thinking poorly from no sleep.

    2. Biff*

      In my office that would fly. “I’m sorry, I was up almost all of last night due to medication interaction/killer migraine/food poisoning and I won’t be in the office” is an email I probably get weekly. (Our team is 100 people, approximately, and we ALL get the email, regardless of which department they are in.)

      1. GOG11*

        That is totally acceptable in my office, too. What I’m wondering about (and probably phrased poorly due to my sleep-deprived state) is whether it would be OK to handle coming in late the same way. So say I am up at 3 am and can’t sleep, is it acceptable to say “Due to my being ill, I will be in at 10 a.m. tomorrow” if I’m supposed to start work at 8 (I don’t have variable hours/shifts). If I had a doctor’s appointment, it would be fine, but it feels like just coming in late so I can sleep is different.

        1. Biff*

          Nah, I wouldn’t call that ill. I’d simply say “due to unforseen circumstances, I’ll be in later today than usual. Approximately 10am.”

        2. Jadelyn*

          I’ve done something like that – got home from a vacation after delayed flights and didn’t get home until after 1, so I set an alarm for my usual time, then woke up, texted my boss “My flight was delayed and I wasn’t home until the middle of the night last night – I’ll be in around 11:00, see you then!” and went back to sleep.

          If your manager is solid, they’ll understand and would rather have you there and able to work to your fullest later, than have you butt-in-seat but borderline non-functional at the start of the day.

    3. LCL*

      You are being overly rigid. Sick time is for when you aren’t feeling well, and for appointments. I think a verbal discussion with your boss telling them you are having health challenges right now would help you.

      I am one of the first people to complain about misuse of sick time. But that is only when people telling me they are misusing their time, and they do tell me. ‘I can’t come in because I’m too sore from doing landscaping’ or ‘I can’t come in because I scheduled a non urgent appointment during my workday, even though I have 5 full weekdays off every two weeks’ or I saw a newspaper photo of them at a pro sports event that happened when they were out sick, are all things that have happened.
      But ‘I can’t come in because I am sick and didn’t get any sleep’ is totally acceptable.

    4. A. Nonymous*

      Do you have FMLA? Most good bosses are really understanding of this, but if you have someone over them that’s a jerk you may have to explain that you run late sometimes. You’re being overly rigid and I think that it’s really best if you can get the health issues documented.

      Take care of yourself.

      1. GOG11*

        My company does offer FMLA, but I have plenty of sick time. I just didn’t know if that was an acceptable use of it. I think I have 3 weeks (after having used a week and a day’s worth over the course of the year so far – which is more than I usually use).

        1. A. Nonymous*

          It is, and I would get FMLA anyway. It isn’t extra leave time, it’s protection for you from any sort of retaliation if you use it. :)

    5. GOG11*

      Thank you everyone. This is very helpful and makes me feel better about approaching adjustments if I need to when I return from vacation. I really appreciate it.

  48. Pwyll*

    So, I’ve reached the point where I’m completely sure I don’t want to be a privately practicing Attorney any longer. I never actually intended to go into private practice and it just sort of happened, so I’m looking to move back into a role as an HR Manager or some hybrid Operations/HR role. My pre-law experience is all jack-of-all-trades type work, including HR and IT management, and political/government/regulatory work.

    We’ve talked a lot here about Attorneys having difficulty applying to non-law jobs, and I’ve found that to be true. If you were hiring an HR Manager or Operations person, what would you want to see in a cover letter that would explain the change? Given the way my work experience has gone, I can’t scrub all of it off my resume entirely without a massive hole. I’ve been using some variation on “I’m looking to return to a more hands-on managerial role using my previous experience establishing HR departments for early-to-mid stage startups.” But I’ve received literally no bites.

    1. Aphrael*

      You might try applying for government work. Experience crafting and interpreting regulations can be a strong asset in mostly law-unrelated fields.

    2. Christopher Tracy*

      Try applying for HR and/or operations positions in the financial services sector where regulatory experience is highly regarded.

    3. Anonymous-at-law*

      This is disheartening to me because I would be interested in a similar sort of transition to non-law or law-adjacent work but don’t have any of the background experience you have. Is there a way to sell your practice experience as a value-added perk for those jobs? Like, have you been practicing employment law or doing regulatory work that might somehow translate into the types of work you’re looking for?

    4. Renee*

      You may not be coming back to check replies but there were two things that worked for me. The first was that I managed to get a temporary contract management position. It lasted about a year, but it gave me some non-litigation/corporate experience that I think helped in my job search by bridging the firm to corporation gap. The second was that I put together a version of the much-maligned functional resume, with a short chronology of positions at the bottom. I broke skills into sections that applied to different fields and translated how my legal experience applied. I listed things like interpreting laws, explaining legal principles to non-lawyers, writing, forensic work, etc. I know that this is not a preferred way of doing things but I think that people think they know what lawyers do, but they don’t necessarily know the foundational skills required. Despite this being the “wrong” way to do things, I started getting bites after I started using it, and I’m now working in the type of position it sounds you might like — I run the admin component of a small technical manufacturer. I do accounting, HR, export compliance, and regulatory compliance, along with other stuff that comes up. I took a slight cut in pay in the beginning but three years in I make what I did at my last firm job — with the tiniest fraction of the stress level.

  49. AnonyMouse*

    What can I do about a co-worker whose negativity is getting me down?

    My coworker (let’s call her Elsa) is about 10 years older than me, and while we are peers in terms of our job description, I do think of her as senior to me because she has so much more industry experience.

    For the past few months Elsa’s been increasingly using me as a sympathetic ear, complaining to me about other coworkers, our managers (various), ranting to me about a worker in another department who annoys her, and non work-related life events. She tends to see the glass-half-empty side of most situations and doesn’t listen when I try to gently point out the positives or deflect complaints about our boss (who I don’t want to be discussing behind her back!).

    Elsa is not totally unreasonable, we do have a difficult manager so I get where she’s coming from, but when I’m frustrated already and am expending a lot of effort to work with our manager productively, it’s an additional drag to have a stream of negativity in my ear.

    Any ideas on how to divert the conversation? Not possible to avoid Elsa since we work closely together. Also since I consider Elsa senior to me, it feels more awkward to ask her to stop.

    Alternatively, any ideas on how to not come across as a willing sympathetic ear in general? I acknowledge it is my nature — I am that person in my friend group (willingly) and she is not the only coworker who comes to me when needing to vent. I do want to be friendly and am glad that my colleagues think I’m trustworthy, but I don’t want to be the local rant repository!

    2. Jillociraptor*

      This is such a challenge! Try to stop doing the nodding-and-sympathetic-sounds thing. Some good phrases might be, “I try to keep a positive attitude,” “Interesting, what are you planning to do about that?” “How are you planning to deal with that?” or “Hmm, that’s a negative way to see it.”

      I think you could also try to be direct with something like, “You know, listening to others complain really bums me out. I need a break.” Though I think overly negative people and people who have gotten to this place due to difficult situations usually don’t have a lot of perspective on how irritating they are. Since you have to keep working with her, it might cause more of a blow up than is worth it. The little nudges might be more useful.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        Those are really helpful ideas, thank you!!
        I will stick to nudges for now I think, she would probably take offense to the directness. (Also we are actually in different offices and a lot of the complaining takes place over phone or IM so it’s harder for me to say something more direct and temper it with a smile or sympathetic face.)

  50. Blue Anne*

    The Unethical Employer Adventures continue.

    This week I discovered that about six months ago, we double-billed a massive order of tea machines. Got one set of purchase orders, sent out two sets of invoices… and two sets of machines. For some reason I’m the first person to discover it even though more than a dozen places have unexpected tea machines. It looks like it was my boss’s mistake, and I’m working on putting it right for her. But – she wanted me to lie to the clients while doing so. Call up the tea shops and say hey, your bosses want us to re-route that spare tea machine to another tea shop. So they’ll “be more motivated to help”. Nope. Not doing it. Argh.

    Same boss has also turned down all of my requests for small things that would make up for our mistake for clients. We shipped the wrong thing, let them keep it and we’ll ship the right one. It’s under a hundred bucks. That kind of thing.

    I’ve had two calls so far just today from clients with unauthorized credit card charges. I have, at least, gotten my boss to agree that we need to start doing credit card authorization forms. I’m going to write our unethical collections policies into the terms on the forms so at least it’s legal.

    Other boss called me “the accounting girl” this week. Livid. Deciding how I want to deal with it the next time it happens.

    I’m job hunting.

    1. Caledonia*

      Oh Blue Anne, I’m sorry :(

      At least it sounds if you’ll have no regrets leaving it.

      1. Blue Anne*

        It’s strange because in some ways, it’s actually a good place to work.

        All my colleagues, including the bosses, are pretty friendly. I could make work friends here. And the two bosses are forgiving of mistakes, which is always good, and respect the knowledge and I’m bringing to the role. They *are* looking at my recommendations for things like credit card auth forms, inventory management, and so on. They understand that I’m devoting a lot of hours to sorting out screwups made by other people and they’re okay with that. I can bring them my concerns and they’ll be taken seriously, even if I don’t get the response I want. It’s probable that I really could improve how their business is run. So part of me is going to regret leaving. Partly because I’ll feel like I let them down, partly because if I do turn this place around it’ll be amazing resume fodder.

        But then they show really scummy behavior to our customers, and my only regret becomes leaving the customers to the mercy of these guys.

        1. neverjaunty*

          The customers will eventually move on to competitors. You’re in the position of dating the guy who’s charming to you but rude to the waiters – it shows he’s a crap person, no matter how nice he is to you, and eventually you’re going to be on the receiving end, even if you don’t know it yet.

        2. catsAreCool*

          You don’t want to work long term for people who are scummy to the customers.

    2. SJ*

      Ugh, my boss calls me the “Twitter girl” sometimes (though that’s like 5% of my job at most) and it drives me absolutely insane. I am also job hunting. Good luck on your search!

  51. K130*

    I have what I guess is a written screening interview. It’s a federal government position, the process is weird. When I applied for the job, I answered a bunch of questions about my general experience and then my specific experience with the systems that this position uses. Since I didn’t have any experience with their specific systems, the correct answer was either “no experience” or “education/training but no experience”. Since they are all familiar systems, I just haven’t had the opportunity to use them, I chose the latter. I am honestly pleasantly surprised I made the cut. So now my 15 question screening, the answers are supposed to be between 100 and 250 words, which turns out to be a lot of words (this comment is about 180 and I think it’s rambly). The first 5 questions are “describe your experience on {these systems I have never used}”. How do I say “I have no experience but have read everything available about it”? In 100 words? Or is the 100 words probably not important for the equivalent of “N/A”?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I would describe in more detail the reading you’ve done and in what context you’ve done it.

      It doesn’t have to hit exactly 100 words I don’t think, but don’t squander the opportunity to provide details about your knowledge.

    2. Aisling*

      I would do the same as Leatherwings. I once applied for, and was offered, a federal position where my answer for one question was “I have no experience with this, but I am willing to learn.” They’re asking all applicants those questions, so just make sure to tailor it to your strength, which sounds like it’s research about something you’re eager to use/do. And then I’d list why you’re so interested in doing that task, based on what you’ve read.

  52. Ang theSA*

    My husband year review for his new job is coming up in a month. His job duties have significantly changed and he the market value for the job he is doing is about 10000 to 15000 more than what he is currently making. Although the review is from his manager, she really has no idea what his job does and the majority of his assignments come from the EVP. His manager is notorious for never really going to bat for her people and with such a significant raise, my husband does not think it will be likely he will get it from her. Would it be totally taboo if after the initial negotiations he goes to the EVP if it is not what he wants? He is really underpaid and he has a great rapport with the EVP since he works with her often.

    1. Christopher Tracy*

      I’m not sure how wise it would be to go over his direct manager’s head for a raise if she doesn’t give him one. Undermining your boss with her boss typically doesn’t end well, trust me.

  53. Biff*

    So, I am not sure if I’m looking for advice or vent space or what. I’ll take anything, I think.

    I’ve been conducting a long-distance job search. I am in the teapot tech field as a senior QA specialist. If your teapot has problems that will drive the end user mad I’m the person who finds those problems and helps you bring your design up to standards and get it out the door, defect-free.

    I have talked to several companies in Desirable Location, and I’ve had several suspiciously similar and very bad experiences. The first place sounded really professional and up-and-coming on the phone. When I got there, it was full of 40 year old men who were trying to look 23 (think skinny jeans with ‘vintage wash’ tees and cheap blazers over the top of the tees), and three token blond women who were all much younger than the male employees and dressed very differently. The dynamic in the office was very awkward, to say the least. And they had DAILY NERF BATTLES. Daily. In fact, they even started at a specific time. Open office, no cubes, no walls, except for the bosses. The women were actually stationed in hi-vis desks, as though this would make up for the lack of diversity.

    Second interview. They spent a tremendous amount of time telling me about the company culture this time. They wanted me to work 70 hour weeks until they got their teapot testing rig up to speed. They expected me to come in all seven days. The office was, again, open office with no cubes, no walls. But with the added bonus of over 20 dogs in the office each day. And they were also allowed on the production floor. (Which sounded like a total safety violation to me.) When I explained I had a light sensativity, they told me that they really didn’t think they could bring me on because they didn’t know where they could put me in the building where I could have an open desk and a still avoid overhead lighting. I explained that I could ‘tent’ my desk, and they felt that would be far too isolating…..

    Third interview: They asked me two questions: how did I work with people who didn’t understand the basics of their jobs, and how did I work with openly hostile people. Then they spent almost 35 minutes telling me about their unique office culture. This is about to sound unbelievably, but…. they encourage everyone to bring their dogs, children AND SPOUSES to work. They admitted that a dog recently got sick and vomitted/pooped all over. They have nerf battles AND a ping pong tables. And they told me that everyone pretty much socializes with coworkers. Oh, and it’s an open office concept with no walls, no cubes. Oh, and they have a straight ‘biz’ dress code. (So yeah, nice pants around 15+ dogs and who knows how many sticky fingered children…. what?) There’s more, but I don’t want to out them quite yet. Let’s just say that the fact that it escalates from there has my jaw on the floor. They told me that they’d like to bring me in to help them bring some professionalism to their Teapot Testing department.

    I’m somewhat terrified that the next place I apply will require me to show up in clown clothes and sing stupid songs before onboarding with the team. Or something equally horrible.

    No, I’m NOT applying in California, just in case anyone asks. What is going on with office culture? Seriously, I don’t understand. Am I somehow triggering these crazy companies to be interested in me, or is this the way offices are going? As an introvert who isn’t terribly fond of people these places sound like hell on earth to me.

    1. Biff*

      And yes, I realize this sounds fake as all get out. I’m incredibly aware of that. But this is really happening, and I have no idea what to think or do. I realize that the business world seems to be gaga for startup culture, but this is ridiculous.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Doesn’t anybody remember going through this during the last tech bubble, where there was a competition to see who could have the zaniest office stuff, and then all of a sudden everybody found out that foosball leagues are less important than actually turning a profit?

        I’m sorry you’re dealing with this nonsense. Avoid startups?

        1. Biff*

          I’ve already been avoiding startups. Several of the businesses I spoke to basically said that they’d spent extreme amounts of money to rebuild themselves in the image of startups. :/

            1. Lily Evans*

              That does sound scarily close. The last one basically describes the episode where they brought Ben in to try to somehow figure out their finances.

            2. zora.dee*

              Your one-stop-shop for public relations, marketing, or anything having to do with reaching out to people, communicating effectively, and other desirable abilities.

              And over here is our office tiger.

    2. Pwyll*

      I hate painting entire industries this way, but I feel like this current generation of tech companies way overthinks the “fun culture” part and waaaay downplays the actual, you know, working part.

      1. Biff*

        I quite literally have no idea how you’d work in an open office full of dogs, children, uncomfortable pants, nerf darts and stray ping pong balls. Seriously, how? HOW? I have friends with the most severe form of ADHD out there and they have to have overstimulation to focus, and this would be overkill for them.

      2. Biff*

        Okay, honest question. You say upthread that you do HR for mid-sized startups. To me, these setups sound like an HR Nightmare that has already started and isn’t being dealt with. It’s not waiting to happen, it’s already in motion. How do you feel about it, though? I know little about HR.

        1. Pwyll*

          I used to do that with startup professional services and non-profits. Everything matters in balance: one of the neatest startups had decorated the main office area more akin to a living room, with TVs and food and couches, etc. They also had a very liberal alcohol policy. But everyone had a private office except the intern/receptionist. We could hang out, talk, drink, whatever, but you were out of there if your job wasn’t getting done, and in the busy season that included nights and weekends. It worked, but I think only because everyone was highly specialized and very senior (think a variety of accountants, doctors and lawyers. Very, very little support staff).

          IMO this kind of playground can work so long as there are explicit policies in place regarding how and when performance is measured, boundaries for people trying to get work done, and rules for what types of behavior are absolutely not allowed. And all of the supervisory/managerial staff need to be on the same page about enforcement of those standards. But this really only works in results-oriented jobs (as in, performance measured by completion of entire projects or project milestones), and it gets extremely more difficult to manage in any type of workplace with a wide variety of jobs. Sure, this might be great for your salespeople and coders, whose performance is measured based on number of sales/lines of code, but it would be absolute hell for your admin/compliance/QA/writing staff, who need to concentrate and whose performance is measured in final projects. Unless you segregate the areas where this type of work is being done, but that has its own headaches.

          IMO, in most businesses, if you want to do this type of thing just have a large, awesome break room. Don’t turn your -office- into the break room.

          1. Anxa*

            “IMO, in most businesses, if you want to do this type of thing just have a large, awesome break room. Don’t turn your -office- into the break room.”

            I share your opinion.

            It was be so cool if larger offices had a socialish breakroom and maybe a little respite room for quick naps or just to lay down (I’ve been having back pain lately, this would be a godsend for my productivity) for a few minutes.

        2. Pwyll*

          I’d also add: I would be shocked if most of these places you’re applying have professional HR people. Many startups focus on hiring their line personnel almost by happenstance or by leaving it all up to their venture partners.

          Lots don’t think they need an HR department because the end goal is to be acquired, and the parent company will handle all that stuff later on. What most of these companies don’t realize is that Google and Facebook get to make these zany offices because they can literally choose to hire only the 100% highest quality professionals anywhere in the world and can lavish gifts on them in order to keep them working insane hours. Your startup, no matter how awesome, doesn’t have 1/1,000 of those resources.

          2. zora.dee*

            Also, from what I know personally from the big companies you mentioned, the “fun” stuff really only got used after work hours. People would start drinking and playing games at the end of a 9 hour work day. Which to me is a whole other problem, because of the expectation that people want to spend their entire lives at their work place, because it’s FUN. But they aren’t playing ping pong all freaking day! It’s something you are expected to self-police because you are expected to get your work done first, and then you can spend the rest of your personal time hanging out at the office and playing with your coworkers.

            tl;dr; You’re Doing It Wrong.

            1. Pwyll*

              Ugh, this.

              Even better, one of my first jobs was at a telecom company in a call center. We had the most amazing, huge break room filled with board games and ping pong and TVs and video games in an effort to make the company “hip”. And the best was: I literally never, ever saw anyone use them. It just wasn’t done. I think if you’d tried to use them at some point you would have received a notice that you weren’t “fitting the culture” at review time. Especially because we had hours upon hours of optional overtime available, so why are you playing games?

      3. Honeybee*

        One of the things I like about my tech company is that it’s an older-gen tech company and thus has toned that waaaay down. I don’t need a slide or nap pods at work, thankyouverymuch. (From what I hear, the early days here were like that, but we’re too big for it now. And I deliberately avoided startups when I was looking.)

    3. Crylo Ren*

      You have my sympathies. I’ve worked at 2 companies now with startup culture and both times I hated it and only stayed slightly past a year. I honestly miss working at the stodgy, long-established companies the most because their culture and atmospheres were the best fit for my personality. (For the record, I AM in California, so it might just be the way offices are going here. Yeah, there’s a reason I’m seriously considering a career change that is more conducive to working from home.)

      1. Biff*

        I am presently in Cali and trying to leave. I’m in import, and I’ve accepted that I’m never going to be comfortable here. I do think it’s the way things are going here, for sure. I am also looking for remote work.

      1. Biff*

        Alison, my plan is to just send them a nice email over the long weekend that says something like “I so appreciate your time but I feel I am a poor fit for your team and would not be productive in the office environment as described.” If you’d like, I’ll happily send you a more detailed run down of how this interview went. You could run it as a “how not to attract top talent’ letter or something. Would that work?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          OH! That makes much more sense. I didn’t realize that either. In that case, maybe not quite as well suited for a horror story letter (I was thinking/hoping it was all the same company). Entertaining nonetheless though!

          1. Biff*

            I am pretty sure this is still very, very much in Horror Story territory. :( I’ll send it along as promised and at the very least, you can have a good laugh at my expense.

          1. Biff*

            Right? I’m stunned that there are more than a few companies that feel this is a sensible way to run a business.

      2. Biff*

        I do however understand your confusion — in my effort to not take up too much space, i didn’t make it as clear as I could have that these were three different horror shows.

  54. Collarbone High*

    A heartfelt thank you to the commenters who suggested B12 deficiency in last week’s question from the LW struggling to find enjoyable work. I’ve been plagued by lightheadedness, fatigue and odd memory lapses over the past few months, and a light bulb went off when I read those comments. I went to the doctor this week and yep, my B12 levels were way too low. I got an injection and started on supplements, and already I feel a bit better. Thanks, y’all!

    2. Manders*

      That’s wonderful! I totally remember that moment of, “Hey, I can concentrate again!” when I got my vitamin deficiencies sorted out.

    3. Sorry for the unsolicited medical advice*

      If you’re taking oral supplements, be sure to ask your doctor about being re-tested – some people can’t absorb B-12 when taken orally. If you start to feel like you’re having more symptoms a few months after having the injection, in spite of taking the oral or sublingual B-12, ask about the possibility of pernicious anemia which means you would need the B-12 injected. (I used to have to go to the doctor’s office for this but after a few years I started doing it at home, every six weeks.)

      1. Collarbone High*

        This is very definitely a possibility since I also have Crohn’s disease. We’re giving the supplements a try (I don’t love the idea of lifelong injections), but this is a good reminder for me that I need to be honest with myself and my doctor about whether the supplements are working. This is one case where I welcome the unsolicited medical advice!

        1. Sorry for the unsolicited medical advice*

          Glad it was helpful! I know what you mean about the injections, but neurological issues are so problematic that is worth it. And B12 symptoms are so easy to miss for other issues – everyone forgets stuff! Everyone is tired!

          I didn’t think so in the beginning but now I like an injection every 4- 6 weeks more than another pill every day, but I agree its a drag either way. Newly discovered health issues are always a rough adjustment to my mental picture of myself.

          1. Collarbone High*

            This was the biggest reason I’m so grateful for the comments. I was dragging my feet on having a conversation with my doctor because individually, each symptom is so nebulous. Lightheadedness could be anything from standing up too fast to a brain tumor. Fatigue? Well yeah, I work a lot. I was debating with myself whether this was just my new normal once I hit 40, and did I really want to go through rounds of tests over being lightheaded, and would a doctor even care?

            It made a huge difference to be able to say “I have these five symptoms, I have Crohn’s and don’t eat a lot of meat, can you check my B12?”

  55. not a cog in the corporate machine*

    I don’t work in the corporate world so I’d love feedback on whether what my spouse is experiencing is normal. His huge company is reorganizing, and at the same time, a senior person whom he used to work for in his old department (let’s call it Department A) left the company. He was asked to take on that person’s responsibilities and has pretty much shifted into that job full-time, though he still handles some of his previous job in Department B. it’s a lot more responsibility and the person he replaced was 2 levels above him. They are re-structuring everything and so it’s not clear where that role will fall in the new structure. He still technically reports to his boss in Department B, just because no one knows whom he’ll report to in Department A because of the overhaul.

    The major issue is–he’s gotten no raise or title change for doing a job 2 levels higher in a different dept! His boss in Dept B acknowledges that this needs to happen, but he’s reluctant to keep nagging Boss about it because, according to him, there are 400 other people whose jobs are similarly in limbo, and Boss is still waiting to hear decisions being made from above by the corporate overlords. But what’s he’s doing is particularly important and also something no one else wants to do (he’s earned a reputation for handling that kind of stuff with grace and skill) and so I really think he can push on this.

    FWIW, this is his second career and so it’s not like he’s been in this corporate world for 15 years–so he himself is a little unsure of how to proceed. I’m kind of going nuts because we really need to do some financial planning and knowing what/when this raise will be is kind of essential.

    Is this stuff normal for giant corporations and how do people handle it?

    1. Biff*

      IMO, Mission creep without pay creep is terribly, terrible common. It’s wrong. But it’s common.

      1. not a cog in the corporate machine*

        Ugh. But would it be such a faux pas for him to push on it? I feel like they will start taking for granted that he is doing the job for this pay rate. I mean, this would be as if I started doing the job of my boss’s boss for the same salary!

        1. Biff*

          I’m presently pushing very gently for a raise due to a mission creep myself. I don’t have an answer for you and I’m sorry about that. In some industries it’s a huge no-no. In mine it’s just iffy.

      2. Bigglesworth*

        I’ve never heard the term Mission Creep before, but I agree it’s common (especially in companies going through a reorg in my experience). I don’t work in a corporate setting, but I do know it’s very common in the school I work in. I’ve been pushing for a raise for six months and although my boss will acknowledge that I do so much more than what my job is, I probably won’t be getting a raise.

  56. Not Me*

    I’ve posted here before about how bad things are at work. Things came to a head on Tuesday; I was taken to a meeting in HR with my boss and grand-boss to talk about my attitude. Apparently the main complaint is that I said on one day that my plate was full and I was at capacity; then a few days later, I offered to help someone who needed help on an issue. So that meant I was “picking and choosing”. I’m also accused of not participating in team meetings while simultaneously shutting down conversations.

    I am absolutely gutted. This is all on top of me struggling with a debilitating health issue and I just am so upset and disappointed. I’ve applied for FMLA and am praying that the paperwork goes through soon. I need a break. I’m so disappointed; this new management team leaps immediately to the nuclear option whenever there is any kind of a blip in the team dynamic. They are ruling by fear and harshness. I’m sick about possibly having to leave my job because it’s a good company and a good team, but I don’t see how I can be successful here any longer.

    Words of encouragement and advice would be welcomed.

    1. Dawn*

      Fuck ’em. They’ve played their hand, it’s a really crap hand, and the only thing you can do is keep your head down, look for another job, do the bare minimum you need to get by, and leave ASAP.

      Also, if your company allows your management to be that ridiculous, THEY ARE NOT A GOOD COMPANY. Drill that into your head. There are real, actual good companies out there that also have good teams but don’t have the crappy stuff you’re having to deal with right now- take this long weekend to relax, mentally stick your currently company inside a Dyson sphere (Google it), and then go find one!

      1. Not me*

        It is a really crap hand. And you know what….you’re right about the management. I thought that my long history of being a valued employee and working hard and being kind to my teammates might mean something but it really doesn’t. Not here. It’s so upsetting. Thanks for your kind words, Dawn.

        1. Dawn*

          Yup, extremely upsetting! But there’s always people out there that’ll just take take take and never give anything back in return, and unfortunately, your managers seem to be those people. I PROMISE there are companies that would love to have you working hard for them and who would happily reciprocate by working hard to keep you!

    2. Biff*

      I had this boss/management for four years, and frankly it stemmed from the fact that my boss was an ass and wasn’t going to change. Anyone who accuses you of mutually exclusive faults is very likely showing abusive tendencies. Like most toxic relationships, it’s not something that can or should be salvaged. Now, it’s possible that what they are saying is genuine, but so poorly worded as to be un-actionable by you. In which case, that’s also kinda not your issue. No one can fix a problem that isn’t clearly stated.

      Run.

      1. Not Me*

        Biff, that’s exactly how it feels — un-actionable. I don’t deny that there have been some problems and I don’t deny that I always have room for improvement (don’t we all?). Toxic is a good word; in the four years this management team has been in place, five people have been fired or quit under duress; two more of us are on the brink. This is on a team of about 12 people. Those aren’t great numbers.

        1. Biff*

          I’m going to strongly suggest that it’s not you. If you’ve lost nearly half your team, and are shedding more shortly, then it’s likely not an individual employee problem at this point. I’m not saying individual employees aren’t contributing, but more than the reason the company has problem employees or employee problems is poor management.

  57. Bigglesworth*

    Hey everyone!

    I have a question for anyone who has pursued a grad degree overseas (I’m based in the USA). How did you do it? What were some things that you wished you knew before you started?

    I’m currently looking at grad schools in the UK, Germany, and Belgium (I have others, but those are my top three). My spouse is game to go anywhere, so that’s not really an issue. I want to do this before I start a family, but I’m stuck as to what schools I should consider (I want to study international law or international relations), what they look for, funding, etc.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Cb*

      I’m American and did my MA in Eastern Europe and my PhD in the UK where I live now. It’s a great experience but can be tough for funding (I’ve never really heard of MA funding for people not from developing countries). I have a friend who did an international relations degree with a placement in Paris that sounded amazing. Visas for partners might also be quite complicated.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thanks for sharing! It’s good to hear of another American going to school in Europe. What was your reasoning for studying in Eastern Europe and then the UK? I’ve been concerned about the logistics of it. Applying, moving, My partner works in the electrical field, but he has a music/recording technology background and is looking at getting his own MA in Technology to help with his goals. We’re hoping that we both get accepted and that it might make getting visas easier.

        Out of curiosity, what is your specialty? And are you teaching with your PhD?

    2. Foxtrot*

      What do you want to do after the degree? I started out wanting to work on international law before switching to engineering. (Weird switch, I know.) Understand that a lot of the international law and relations positions here in the US are appointed (I’m not good at playing the politics game, hence the career change) and will probably require you passed the bar. Going overseas sounds nice, but you’ll miss out on a lot of the political elbow rubbing that the US-based students will have.
      If you want to teach, that’s a whole different ball game that I know nothing about.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Hey Foxtrot,

        I love teaching and am currently working in higher ed. There is a large part of the work I enjoy (working with students, teaching, helping improve programs, etc.), but I don’t think I realized how political this field is. It’s really making me question whether or not I want to continue. There are a lot of things I like, but I don’t like how some of the faculty treat the staff. It’s frustrating.

        My entire undergraduate degree was focused around international human rights/nonprofit law. I still find it fascinating. I just took the LSAT in June and got a score of 157. If I go that route, I’ve been thinking about pursuing a JD/Master’s of International Relations.

        1. Foxtrot*

          I’m not sure how political the academia side is as that was never really my interest. I meant that I wanted to *practice* international relations, not teach it. Jobs in embassies, the ICJ, and other government organizations are a lot of who you know. You could probably work in international business relations or a non-profit, though. What I don’t know is if you’re eligible for the bar with a foreign law degree. That might be something to ask lawyers.
          I actually ended up doing engineering for the US government, so the political background has helped. It’s the elected politicians who decide our funding and it’s nice to know how they think.

        2. Foxtrot*

          I guess I would just parrot what Alison always says on this blog: think about what it is you want to do with the degree after graduation and then decide if it’s the right path. Living abroad for a few years could be an adventure in itself, but you don’t necessarily need to take on loans to do it. Plenty of businesses send US citizens abroad on assignments.

          1. Bigglesworth*

            Ah. I understand what you meant by political.

            Personally, I believe that there is a lot of value to be gained from living abroad and getting out of your comfort zone. If I pursue a degree in international relations, I feel like earning my degree in a different country will give me a different perspective if/when I work in the government or academia.

            I’m pretty sure that if I stay in the States for my degree, I will end up taking loans anyway. Between my savings, scholarships, and lower tuition, I’m hoping that won’t be the case if I go overseas.

            .I’m also watching the exchange rate to see if the dollar becomes stronger than the Euro or the pound. Depending on what ends up happening, my decision to study overseas may change.

            I’m also not planning on starting a grad program until Fall 2017 at the earliest. My job is uncertain right now (I’m the letter writer from the religious higher ed question that was posted on March 30). I’m job hunting too and if I get a new job soon, I’ll stay in it for at least two years before I start a grad program.

            All in all, life is very interesting right now.

            1. Honeybee*

              There is a lot to be gained from living abroad, especially if you want a career in IR. But graduate school is also a professional training experience, and your goal is presumably to find work afterwards. If you want to work in the U.S. and/or for U.S.-based employers, it may make more sense to seek a degree at a U.S.-based university. They tend to have the best career and alumni networks stateside, and also have overall better reputations amongst employers in the U.S. that value prestige (and academia is one of those areas that values prestige).

              You also might check out hybrid programs that allow you to spend one year abroad and one year in the U.S., and get the degree from a U.S. university. There’s a Columbia University/Sciences Po program in international affairs that allows that, and a couple of related programs at American University and Georgetown that do too.

    3. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      I did my masters in the UK.
      -I had a specific sub-specialty I wanted to study
      -I did a google search on said sub-specialty on English-speaking European countries
      -I refined the search, looking for where scholarships were offered.

      Then I applied to 3-5 schools of the sub-specialty, all of which offered scholarships. All were so much more affordable than anything in the US ($29k versus $200k) and there was free healthcare which was pretty awesome too :)

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Hey Carmen! Your process sounds a lot like what I’m doing right now. I’m still figuring out where to look for scholarships though.

        One of my big things is that I don’t want to end up like a lot of my peers – thousands of dollars in debt and not being able to pay it off quickly. It’s one of the reasons I’m looking overseas for a degree instead of staying here (that, plus I miss living in Europe to be honest).

        How did you find your scholarships? Were they all provided for by the schools you applied to?

    4. Susan C*

      In case of law, I’d probably have to warn you away from Germany – it’s one of the fields where our system just doesn’t have the undergrad/grad split like you know it (and that’s been spreading here too), but rather a continuous 5-6 year program that starts the moment you step into university and ends, iirc, not with a JD but the rough equivalent of the bar exam.

      International relations, however! (Or, you know, if there’s a law program that can accomodate you, which may certainly exist)
      – let location feature heavily into your choice. For example, LMU is a great uni from all I know, and Munich very beautiful, but do not go there unless you’re made of money. It’s not *that* good to make going into debt over cost of living worth it. OTOH, traditional uni towns like Heidelberg and Göttingen are great to live in, but the market for affordable housing is horribly crowded.
      – I can’t speak to the reputation of specific programs as it’s not my field, but, that’s the point really – always judge programs on a case by case basis, and don’t just go by the acclaim of the uni as a whole.
      – location, encore: if I were you, I’d probably look for something near the western border (maybe Saarbrücken or Aachen), because you might enjoy being able to just hop over to Brussels, Maastricht or The Hague for a day trip. Never underestimate how small Europe is! ;)

      Good luck!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thanks for that insight, Susan! I used to live in Vienna and loved how easy it was to travel all over Europe! I’ll start looking at schools on the western border and see if there are any that would work for me. :) If I studied law, I probably would stay here in the US. I know that I also want to get aMasters in International Relations and the cost/time it takes to earn one in Europe is a factor that I’m taking into account. Plus, I miss living in Europe. :)

        Too many of my friends went straight into grad school after earning their undergrad, but didn’t even think to look at international programs. As a result, they now have that much more debt to pay off. I graduated without debt and would like to keep it that way by saving up and making smart decisions.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      My field (in the physical sciences) is very international, so lots of people go abroad for grad school. Generally, they don’t accept foreign students without an offer of funding, but I suspect that varies wildly with subject.

      I do know that Taiwan offers full scholarships that provides a year of intensive Chinese studies, and if you pass the exam, a master’s or bachelor’s degree (depending on your education level) at a local university, which might be appealing for international relations.

      Visa wise, generally you can’t work on a student visa, or only in specific on-campus jobs. Spousal visas might be tricky and, in my experience, probably won’t allow him to work, so you’d either have to live off your funding, or your savings if there is no funding, or he’d need to independently get a work visa, the ease of which varies wildly with country and area of expertise.

  58. straws*

    How risky is it to post a resume to a job site like Indeed or Monster? I really want to put my resume out there for others to find, but my boss doesn’t know I’m looking. I don’t recall him ever using that type of service for hiring, we’re not currently hiring, and if we do hire anyone in the near future it’s unlikely to have anything to do with my job. But, I can’t imagine him reacting well, so it makes me pretty nervous.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Don’t do it. Those services rarely work (great employers rarely go looking there for great candidates), you get a TON of spam, and there is a definite risk your boss will find it or someone will send it to him. It’s not worth it.

      Just apply to job postings instead.

        1. straws*

          Yes, viewing the listings is what I’m doing now. I didn’t want to leave an option unused if it would be helpful, but it sounds like it won’t be. I will keep on with my search!

    2. Laura*

      It’s risky. Don’t do it unless you’re desperate. Anyone can find it. I wouldn’t worry so much about your boss seeing the resume, but you’ll get spammed by employers you don’t want to talk to and recruiters who try to head-hunt you for all sorts of positions that might be unrelated to what you do.

      1. straws*

        I’m probably inching toward desperate, but hopefully I won’t get to the point where I’m inviting (more) spam into my life! Points taken. Thank you!

    4. Joanna*

      Unless you have very specific, very in demand skills, I suspect your odds of being found by a good employer on a site like that are very low

  59. taylor swift*

    For the last 8 months, I’ve been tasked with picking up a coworker for work and driving her home at 3:30 (my day ends at 5). She lives just a few blocks away from me (and the office) so it feels petty to complain but it’s messing up my morning routine, and 3:30 is generally when I’m at my busiest, and she always interrupts what I’m doing to get a ride home. She doesn’t drive and her husband has medical problems so in the beginning it was to help her out a bit, but this has been going on since November.
    She treats me like a chauffeur and it drives me crazy. I’ve talked to my boss about it several times but it’s always “that’s just how she is, we’ll talk to her.”
    I’ve asked that others contribute so that’s been helping a little bit and I only have to pick her up twice a week now but it’s still so annoying to me and makes me so crabby.
    She also weighs at least 300 pounds and it’s causing a lot of wear and tear on my car (the bottom scrapes going in and out of the parking lot, and the side of the car is weighed down when she’s in it.)
    I don’t want to do this anymore but it feels very petty since it’s not really her fault that she’s heavy or that her husband can’t drive her any more, but at the same time she’s an adult and should figure out how to get to work on her own.

    1. SophieChotek*

      If it has become part of your job description, you might be out of luck?
      Although if 3:30 is your busiest time, could you talk to your manager about the timing? (Why does her day end earlier than yours?) She will just have to wait and bring a book?
      Or if she lives only a few blocks away, could company work something out?

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          We have no idea why she can’t walk, and it’s none of our business (or the OP’s). For whatever reason, this has become one of her tasks.

          1. Biff*

            I am going to have to disagree with you there. This seems to stem from an idea that people can’t walk to get around outside.

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              No. You are assuming that it stems from that. But we don’t know: where the office is located, whether there are safe sidewalks, what the whether is like, if the woman has a disability, etc.

              The OP may chime in and answer these questions, but that doesn’t change the fact that we don’t (at this time) know what’s up.

              1. taylor swift*

                Her limiting factor is that she’s 300 pounds. As far as I know, she has no other disabilities. It’s an easily walked neighborhood, and the distance is probably 6-7 blocks. I have walked to work before (live about 8 blocks away) and am no longer really able to because of my ride responsibilities. However, due to her size I don’t necessarily think that asking her to just walk is an option – or at least, it’s certainly not my place to say it.

                1. Biff*

                  Whoa whoa whoa…. you are specifically bringing your car to work so you can provide a ride, not because you need it there???? This is way out of bounds. WAY!

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Why not just say “I’m no longer going to be driving to work, so as of next Wednesday, Jane will need a different arrangement.”

                  If they ask why, it can be because your car is breaking down and in need of major work, or your spouse needs it, or you’re selling it, or this is the one time of day you can get exercise, or pretty much anything you can come up with. You’re just no longer driving to work, period.

                3. Sadsack*

                  I think I’d start walking to work and take myself out of the driving pool. If they demand you drive her, you should be claiming mileage or getting some other reimbursement.

                4. Artemesia*

                  I can’t imagine driving 8 blocks to work unless you are transporting heavy stuff. That is barely exercise. I would stop driving immediately. First send your car to the shop for a week — the frammis and the krunkle are shot and being replaced. Maybe it takes a second week. Then let the boss know at the end of that week that you are not going to be driving your car to work anymore so Whosis will need to make other arrangements. And pretty clearly the co-worker needs to be making that walk for herself if it is possible and it sounds though it is, although not our call of course.

                5. Anon for this one*

                  I am currently clocking in at 321, and I still walk more than 2 miles in a day. Weight really should not be an excuse.

                  And just bless your HEART for driving your car to work just to tote her around! I love Alison’s response.

          2. sparklealways*

            Sorry, I disagree….

            OP has been “tasked” with this, but it is not necessarily an official part of her job. It may have been her boss saying, “Hey, taylor swift, can you give Jane a ride until she gets an alternate plan to get to the office?” which everyone expected would just be a temporary month or so long situation, so OP agreed and now it has become 8 months and nothing is being done. OP has every right to be frustrated and upset.

            If she is physically able to walk, just choosing not to, it is 100% the OPs business. It’s HER TIME AND HER CAR!! OP is being way too accommodating.

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              Goodness. It’s always a mystery to me which letters end up getting people up in arms.

              I asked above, but we don’t actually know how this task came to the OP. It could be that you’re right, that it wasn’t supposed to be a regular part of her job. In which case, sure, she should go ahead and bow out of it (… but she shouldn’t be as outraged as you seem to be; she can say no and go on with her life). But it’s also entirely possible that her boss has decided this is a good use of her time. She can push back on that and ask for help to make it more reasonable for her, but her boss is allowed to make that call.

              1. Carissa*

                Honestly curious question: You think it’s reasonable for the boss to order OP to pick-up and drop-off another coworker? Why is it OP’s job to do this? OP is having to use HER car (not a company car) and it’s causing wear and tear on HER car.

                OP- are you getting paid mileage and a sum for wear and tear? I don’t see how a boss can order an employee to pick up and drop off a coworker because they can’t figure out how to call a cab, a friend, a relative or something. If my boss ordered me to do this, I would be pissed off and start looking for another job.

                2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                  Sure; why not? If it’s part of my work day, it’s no different (other than the reimbursement and/or insurance issues, which are separate) than any other things my boss may decide make sense for my role. I can dislike it, I can push back, but in the end my boss gets to decide what’s in the scope of my responsibilities (and I get to decide whether I want to keep the job, knowing that that’s a part of my workload).

                  In any case, it sounds like this is not the case here — the boss hasn’t assigned this task to the OP… she’s just gotten sortof stuck with it.

    2. Dawn*

      You suddenly have something very urgent that you have to do and unfortunately you can no longer transport her to and from work. You’ve helped out 8 months, you’ve done your due diligence, you cannot do it anymore period. Tell your boss, tell her, and then let her figure it out herself. Like you said, she’s an ADULT, I can see having to bum rides for a month or so while she figures out bus schedules, but right now she’s just coasting on other people’s generosity and not having to face the consequences.

    3. Biff*

      I think you need to lay down the law. “I’m sorry, I’m busy in the afternoons, and can’t help you with a ride until 5:30, when I’ve finished my day. I realize that this is a task that doesn’t take long, but it’s incredibly disruptive to me. Imagine if you were in the middle of a shower or cooking, and you suddenly had to leave. You have to turn off the water, the stove, maybe change into whatever crap clothes are available, and then come home and completely restart what you were doing. ”

      If she fusses, remind her that people asking for favors need to show gratitude.

    5. sparklealways*

      Two questions taylor swift: 1. Is there a physical/medical reason she can’t drive ? 2. How did this become your “job” to begin with?

      I think you are being way too nice with her situation. It is okay to be a good coworker and help people out in need when it is temporary and limited, but you have no obligation to your coworkers outside of being pleasant to them during work hours.

      1. taylor swift*

        She has severe anxiety and as a result doesn’t drive. She does have both a driver’s license and a car, but chooses not to use them (takes taxis to the grocery store, etc.) In the beginning it started out as a thing to help her out while her husband was in the hospital, and now has become an every day thing.

        1. sparklealways*

          Do you know if she is in therapy or does your employer offer an assistance program that could help with this? I’ve had issues with anxiety (especially with driving), still do sometimes, but therapy had been helpful. I had an old coworker with similar issues and there was a book that she said helped her, although I cannot remember the name, but I’m sure you can Google some options.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      OK, hold up. A couple of things. You’ve been “tasked” with this… did your boss ask you to give her rides as part of your job? Because if she asked and you agreed, you do have the option to say it’s no longer working for you. You don’t even have to give a reason. It’s just not working.

      Also, she lives only a few blocks from the office? Are you located on a highway with no sidewalks, or is it feasible to walk? I imagine that walking a few blocks at 300 pounds is difficult, but it’s not impossible, so I don’t understand why she even needs rides.

      One last thing: her day ends at 3:30, yours ends at 5. So you stop what you’re doing, drive her home and drive back? HELL NO. She can wait until 5 for you or she can get another ride.

      (Can you tell I hate carpooling?)

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        A side note, as a person who has weighed more than 300 pounds, please don’t make assumptions about her abilities. I ran a half marathon at over 300 pounds. She may have limitations in her abilities, but please don’t assume so because of her weight (which we don’t actually know – we just know what the OP, who is frustrated with her, is guessing).

        1. Biff*

          Er, they said that they felt she COULD walk home. Please reread that. They weren’t suggesting her weight would prevent her from walking, they were merely acknowledging that it might not be the easiest way for her to get around.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Yep, I read that. But she still assumed that it would be difficult. That’s not necessarily so; as I said, I ran 13 miles at over 300 pounds. Walking three blocks would not have been difficult for me.

        2. sparklealways*

          I’m not reading anything in the comments that suggests anyone is doing that, Victoria Nonprofit. In fact, I am reading the opposite. Multiple people are questioning why she can’t walk, which implies that they think she is fully capable of doing so, despite her weight (although it may be more challenging for someone of her size).

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            This is what I was responding to: “I imagine that walking a few blocks at 300 pounds is difficult…”

            Yes, that sentence ended with “… but not impossible.” I meant to call quick attention to the biased assumption that was built in.

            1. sparklealways*

              Ahh… got it. I hadn’t thought of that angle. Well, from the follow up comments from the OP, it sounds like she should be capable of walking.

        3. Anxa*

          I fully agree with you that noone should make assumptions that she can’t walk easily just because shes’s 300 lbs, but it seems like this is part of the reason they are making OP drive her.

          If she doesn’t have a disability or weight related disability, there’s no reason she should expect a ride regularly. Even if she does have issues walking, this method of accommodation doesn’t seem right.

        4. Mander*

          Yeah I didn’t want to sidetrack too much but being 300lbs is not in itself a cause for limited mobility. I weigh nearly that much and I have a job that involves manual labour, navigating unstable terrain, climbing in and out of holes, etc. There’s a bit of unspoken bias in some of the comments here.

      2. taylor swift*

        Additional info: I was asked nicely if it was possible for me to pick her up in November. It was, and I thought it was a nice way to help out a coworker in a difficult situation. But 8 months later, it’s still a thing that’s happening.

        Yesterday, I was working with two other coworkers and discussing what information I needed to put on a spreadsheet, etc and when my coworker was mid-sentence, the woman I drive came in and said “pardon the interruption but I’m ready to go home.” No one else seemed to think it was weird or bad manners that she interrupted like that…

        Also, I hate the 3:30 rides the most because it just reminds me how much longer I have in my day….

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          This in no way sounds like it’s mandatory — why do you feel like it is?

          Unless your boss has specifically told you this is part of your job (and it doesn’t sound like that), you can just tell her you can’t do it anymore.

          1. Carissa*

            Can a boss legally task you with picking up/dropping off a coworker using your own vehicle? If there’s an accident, would the company cover costs? This all sounds very strange to me. I can understand helping someone out for a bit but the company just lets OP leave a 3:30 to take someone home?

            I just don’t understand how a boss can order someone to use their personal vehicle to chauffeur a coworker around. Sounds like an HR nightmare.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Sure, they can require it. In some states they’d have to pay your mileage but not in all. Accidents would likely be on them, but that’s out of my area of expertise.

              But I don’t think it’s being required here.

              1. taylor swift*

                It feels like it’s mandatory in the sense of whenever I bring up concerns, it’s just “oh, that’s how [Jane] is.” Yesterday, I was one of three people in the office and my boss said “well I guess you’re taking Jane home since there’s no one else here.”

                And if someone can’t do their normal day (like Wakeen picks up on Mondays and Alice picks up on Thursdays) then they come to me and say well you’ll pick Jane up right? It feels petty to say I don’t want to – I don’t really have a valid reason not to other than I don’t want to and I don’t particularly like this co-worker. It makes me feel like I won’t be looked at as a team player or that I’m willing to help out.

                I should note that I was without a car a year ago for an entire month because of an accident – and no one offered to drive me around. I walked to work every day or had my roommate drive me.

                I’m also relatively young – I’m 24 and the next oldest person in my office is 48. So that might also have to do with why I feel I can’t say no. And most of my attempts to even alleviate the burden (switch to less days a week) haven’t been too terribly well-received.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  That’s not mandatory :) You’re reading into their words that it is, but it really doesn’t sound like it to me. You’ve said you’re willing to do it so people are treating you like you are, but none of this means that it would be out of line for you to say “I’m not driving to work anymore, so as of Wednesday, I can’t be your ride.” And then if others ask you about it, you just say, “Oh, I stopped bringing my car to work.”

                  That’s it, seriously. You just need to assert yourself and hold firm. You can do that nicely.

                2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                  Ok, this is different from what I originally understood. I thought that, for whatever reason, your boss had formally assigned you the job of driving this woman to and from work.

                  Instead, it sounds like it evolved, without your permission, from a temporary kindness to an expectation. That’s not cool.

                  Alison has some good scripts for this, like: “Boss, I’ve been giving Jane rides for the past 8 months, but I’m not able to continue to do so. I wanted to give you a heads up because I know she might have difficulty making other arrangements.”

                  If your boss pushes back, you can say: “I’ve been happy to help, but driving Jane has been interfering with my personal time in the morning and my work in the afternoons. I also realized recently that, if we’re treating this like a job assignment, it could affect my insurance. So starting next week I’m not going to be able to give Jane rides to and from work.” etc.

                3. Me234*

                  Taylor you are being way too nice and accommodating about this. For the life of me I’ll never understand how sometimes people just can’t… say….. no.

                  This was nice of you to do for a few times but it sounds like now your boss is just taking advantage of everyone that will drive this woman to and from work. It is up to you to make it stop for yourself. This is not an actual work task from what you’ve said. You don’t really owe your boss an explanation other than, “This arrangement no longer works for me” but then you MUST STICK TO IT.

                  “I guess nobody else will drive Jane home, so you will, yes?”

                  “No, I’m sorry, I can’t do that. She’ll have to call a taxi.”

                  “You’ll pick up Jane on your way in tomorrow, right?”

                  No, I’m sorry, I can’t do that anymore. She’ll have to make other arrangements.”

                  Please give us a follow-up. I want to know how this goes!

    7. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Is this a task that was assigned to you (by your boss)? If not, then I think all the other advice is good — just stop doing it, maybe after giving her a week or so of notice.

      If your boss assigned this task to you, have a conversation with her about how it is affecting your work and whether there are other options that could be considered. Your boss could decide that, for whatever reason, this is something she needs you to do. Then you need to decide whether you want to keep this job, with this new requirement.

      1. Biff*

        If the boss has tasked her with this, then she actually has to be reimbursed for mileage and any change that might be necessary for her insurance. Most insurance won’t cover accidents that occur while you are on company business. And if it’s a job task, then it’s company business. So she needs to explain to her boss that the company needs to be paying for extra insurance coverage.

        1. sparklealways*

          To be fair, it is possible that her employer has business auto insurance. But yes, she absolutely needs to be reimbursed for mileage.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                IF it’s a part of her job it could affect her insurance. But it’s not at all clear that it is.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Yep. Insurance companies want to know if you use your car for work. And now you do.

              I think you can say to your boss, “I can’t give Jane rides any more because I am getting very concerned that my car insurance company will increase my rates. I would have to pass that increase on because this is an expense I incurred on behalf of our company.”

              Your coworker needs to develop a plan for her setting. How does she get to the hospital to see her hubby? Who drives her then? How does she get groceries? She must be doing some driving.

              My friend has difficulty from time to time, so I give her rides but basically we enjoy each other’s company. I do not mind giving her rides home from work, she is right on the way. Did I mention she is PLEASANT? If I call and ask if she wants a ride to work, she almost always says no. The rides are not daily and she leaves when I am ready to leave. This is a very accommodating, go with the flow type of person. Stark difference in so many ways from what you are seeing.

    8. Stephanie*

      You should talk to your boss and say why it’s no longer possible for you to do this. Just make sure to frame it in terms of it affecting your work and leave her out of it as much as possible.

      Also, how is this sustainable? What if you quit (I would probably start looking if I was turned into a chauffeur) or (God forbid) got into a car accident and had no car?

      They should work on some kind of accommodation or look into shared ride services. Even the most car-dependant places I’ve lived have some sort of Dial-a-Ride service.

    9. Seal*

      Does “tasked” mean you’re getting paid extra to serve as this woman’s chauffeur? Is this woman at least chipping in gas money? If the answer is no to both of these then you are under no obligation to keep driving this woman around. It’s one thing to help out in an emergency; very few emergencies last 8 months.

      One of my colleagues doesn’t drive and relies on her husband to get places, but his health is starting to fail. This is someone who is always asking for favors or special treatment now; the consensus is that she’ll start calling on people to take her to work and back every day if/when her husband can no longer drive. Our managers have quietly assured us that no one is under ANY obligation to help her get to work on a regular basis.

    10. Beezus*

      You are so kind to have done this for her as long as you have, and I can’t imagine myself doing it for longer than a week!

    11. MoinMoin*

      I don’t really have anything to add, except to say that I’d love to hear a follow-up on what ends up happening with this.
      And as someone that is often over-eager to help out without always thinking of the ongoing commitment, then wants to back out but doesn’t want to have the awkward conversation, then feels resentful which isn’t fair because I haven’t voiced my concerns to someone, I empathize.

  60. Evie*

    My last day of work was yesterday. My company closed and he mentioned maybe reopening but I doubt it. Today I have to start the unemployment claim. Honestly I was about to quit so I’m not heartbroken but it is a local iconic business and since it was announced so many people have sent their sympathies. I just have to the polite smile and nod all while thinking of all the drama that is hopefully now gone from my life.

  61. AnonKitty*

    Been waiting for one of these to pop up when I had some time to sit down and put my thoughts down!

    So Ive been working at a company I’ve always wanted to for years. Its been 3 moths+ so far and its been great. I got pulled into a weird sort of Q and A session that was almost interview like with the Ops Manager and my regular Manager (my manager was sitting in and was saying there was openings for Project Manager for the area I excel in he made it sound like I was getting screened for it. I think thats where I started having some weird misunderstandings which I’ll touch upon later.) Recently I’ve been taking on extra duties outside of the scope of my job, and so far it hasn’t been too bad. However I am assisting in some of the tasks that would be usually done by the PM and have been able to forecast things and stabilize sales. Its made it to where no extra help needs to be called in from the parent company overseas.

    There was a bit of a miscommunication though on whether the Q and A was an actual interview or not which caused some anxiety for a few weeks. After clearing up some of my doubts and misconceptions during one of our almost weekly meetings, the Ops Manager mentioned that he was creating a position but that it can’t happen overnight and that he wanted to move me up in that. The catch was it would take until January to really take effect and that it’d be a merit increase and an official title change (It’s essentially a PM lite). Now I’m always really leery about promotions discussed, promised or otherwise, but I told him I don’t really expect a promise on anything. Only that I was very interested in pursuing promotions and staying with the company for a lengthy time.

    For now should I just take it at face value and continue to assist him in the hopes that it’ll bear fruit? Or am I in jeopardy of just getting taken advantage of while they find someone to fill the PM position? I’m not looking to fast promote honestly-I’m pretty happy where I am right now but I wouldn’t turn down a promotion if it came around and said hi. And so far the work I have been doing hasn’t negatively impact the current division I’m in.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Why not continue to say you are interested in promotions and staying with the company for a long time AND put this particular promotion out of your head for the time being. Stay the course of doing a great job but do not dwell on this particular promotion until you see it.

    2. Christopher Tracy*

      Keep the conversation going, but also keep healthy skepticism. If this pans out and you’ve been keeping the lines of communication open with the manager, you’ll be at the forefront of his mind. And if not? You’ve lost nothing.

  62. Aella*

    I had a job interview this week with the recruitment agency who are currently hawking me out, because they have a job available in recruitment with them. I asked the ‘difference between a good X and a great X’ question, which my interviewer said was a really good one, and she has said that I should take the weekend to think it over, and call them on Monday if I want to move forward.

    So. I am, on balance, going to say I do, subject to a question about raises. (Progression opportunities are zero, which I am fine with as long as renumeration increases. They are all about training, and teaching you every aspect, but they’re a small team and intend to stay that way)

    I am also gnawing my nails to the knuckle in case there’s something I have completely forgotten to consider.

    (Oh, and the difference is apparently passion)

  63. New Girl*

    All these intern related letters have me thinking back to my years as an intern. Ugh, I wish I could erase them from my memory. I just cringe thinking about them but I’m thankful I had awesome internship supervisor and faculty mentor. Anyone want to share their cringe worthy stories?

    1. Laura*

      I shared yesterday that my (one) internship was a total failure. It was for a government office. My supervisor was about 1,000 years old and told me on DAY ONE “There is a hiring freeze in our sector for at least three years, so you won’t be able to work here when you graduate.” Everyone in the office was absolutely miserable, and showed it too.

      My tasks were menial, when they were given to me. I found out that student workers were being PAID to do what I was doing for free. After a couple of weeks, I went in and quit. The two-hour commute wasn’t justified in any way, and I immediately lost interest in the field.

    2. justsomeone*

      I don’t want to share mine, but I cringe when I think of my behavior during my internship. I was SO ANNOYING!

    3. pugsnbourbon*

      Oh man. I landed a pretty great summer research internship in college and I almost shot myself in the foot before even starting. I was so excited about the topics that I reached and emailed some of the professors I’d be working with about how excited I was and what my interests were. The program manager emailed me and told me not to “mass email” the staff – I didn’t! The emails were individually written, but I still should have held off.

      I survived, though, and at the end of the summer she asked me to apply to their graduate program :)

    4. Pineapple Incident*

      Totally late to the party, but this is odd to me.

      Where I’m interning there are over 10 interns for the summer in various departments, and it sounds like I’m the ONLY one with substantial projects. I might be the only grad student which is likely part of it since my department wanted someone who could contribute to several things over the summer. I’m just wondering why the government relations people wanted 2 interns if they weren’t going to give them any work. They’re pretty bored- aside from the few meetings on the hill they’ve gone to, they’re not doing anything despite having made themselves available to everyone in their department.

      Just some questions- Why pay someone a decent intern salary if you don’t have much (or have nothing) for them to do? Why not float them to other departments who may need help with different projects instead? Are there companies who just like having interns for the sake of saying they have a robust intern program?

      1. c*

        I worked at a company like this. Everyone is overworked and thinks they want an intern to lighten the load. When the interns arrive, suddenly they remember that interns have to be trained – and training them is even more intensive than training new hires, because interns have little to no work experience. Plus, the time you put into training them is less fruitful, because interns’ time at the company is finite. So managing the intern(s) becomes an item (or a series of items) on your to-do list rather than the benefit you assumed it would be. Yes, that shows a serious lack of foresight and ineffective management, but when people are stretched thin, that’s what happens.

        We did have one really great intern who managed to be productive and learn a lot while she was at our company. She listened to and observed everything that was going on, she learned fast, and she asked really smart questions.

  64. JustaTech*

    Hopefully-not-hypothetical question: when a job posting says that a person in the department the job is in has chemical sensitivity, what does that mean for what to wear to an interview?
    I mean, I know it means no perfume or scented lotion, but what about minimal-scented antiperspirant? (Think baby powder, not Axe.) Almost every grooming product I use has *some* scent, even if it’s not ‘scented’.
    Is this the kind of thing you can ask about when setting up an in-person interview?
    Thanks!

    1. Batshua*

      I would ask if lightly scented deodorant would upset them when scheduling. It couldn’t hurt, and it shows you’re a thoughtful person. Erring on the side of caution rarely hurts, I think.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Can you get a small non-scented anti-perspirant? Baby powder can have a pretty strong smell to someone who is highly sensitive to that. I would also avoid any smelly hair products period. Makeup should be fine though.

      Since this is an interview I would just make an extra effort.

    3. Vulcan social worker*

      I agree that if you are offered an interview it’s best to ask how fragrance-free you need to go. I would so much rather be asked than have someone show up wearing something that is going to send me home after the interview. If you speak to the person with the issue, hopefully she’ll just be happy that you’re sensitive about her needs, or the person setting up the interviews will hopefully be able to answer that question since it’s in the ad. I can’t assure you that someone won’t take offense at being asked about it, of course, but I’m never upset at anyone asking about making sure that I’m not going to be ill. I get irritated when someone tells me, “Oh, you should try Imitrex!” (or worse, Excedrin Migraine) as if I haven’t been living with migraine for 30 years, but never with someone asking what I need.

      Best of luck to you in getting an interview!

    4. Jennifer*

      I think you need to go out and buy yourself unscented products. Seriously, some folks get set off by anything and it’s not worth the risk!

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      After my previous experience working with someone with a severe chemical sensitivity, I wouldn’t apply to a job with that requirement stated up front.

      In my experience, accommodating their sensitivity meant that I had to go practically scent-free in my personal life. It extended far beyond perfume. It also meant changing the hand soap, shower gel, lotion, detergent, deodorant, and hair spray that I used at home. Further, I was even admonished one time when scent was clinging to my bag from when I’d worn perfume over the weekend.

      I’m sympathetic to those with chemical sensitivities, really I am! But it was a huge inconvenience to work with someone under these requirements.

      1. Not Karen*

        Yeah, that’s a lot to ask of someone – to change all their products at home. In general, I prefer unscented or “fresh scent” products, but the ONLY hand lotion I’ve been able to find that works for me has a very strong scent. Asking me to forgo it would be asking me to have chapped, itchy hands 24/7.

    6. Pennalynn Lott*

      I’m mildly sensitive to artificial fragrances. I say “mildly” because it really depends on the fragrance, the strength, air flow, etc. But I had to leave class one day last semester when a fellow student came in wearing clothes washed (dried?) in some Febreze-scented stuff. The inside of my nose, my sinuses, and my throat started to swell shut. I had to bolt for the hallway and dig out my emergency inhaler.

      So, in addition to not wearing perfume or scented lotion, I’d also take a hard look (sniff?) at your laundry detergent and dryer sheets.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Fabric softener. Someone gave my husband some nice shirts. I had to wash them three times to get the smell of fabric softener out of them. I think some people stop being able to smell the softener or detergent and they keep using more and more.

        OP, sorry, no fragrance means no fragrance at all.

        1. Artemesia*

          Unless this is the only job lead you have, I’d take a pass rather than have to turn my entire household upside down.

  65. Batshua*

    I have a job interview next week for a totally different kind of job from what I’m doing now. I have no idea if I would be any good at it or if I want it, but I’m definitely curious and nervous.

    It’s a different department in the same [very large] governmental organization.

    Given that I’ve never done this work before but made it to an interview, what do I say to the interviewers?

  66. The Mighty Thor*

    Need opinions on something I do. I hate answering calls from numbers I don’t recognize, so I let all these calls go to voicemail. I then listen to the voicemail so I call back prepared, or at least having some idea of what to expect.

    And if they don’t leave a voicemail? Can’t have been that important to begin with, and at least I can use the number to research who it was

    1. SophieChotek*

      That is my opinion. I assume if it is important they will leave a VM.
      If they actually know me, they can also send me a text or an email.
      If they don’t leave a message, I assume its a robo-call or spam-like.
      I also have set up a separate Google Voice Mailbox, but so far it seems to have not been effective, but at least i have a separate number to give out.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I do the same thing, especially because there aren’t too many reasons someone would need to call me instead of email me at work so it’s not like I’m screening important calls. I think that’s pretty normal.

    3. Audiophile*

      This is exactly what I do with my cell phone. Lately, I’ve been getting a ton of calls for “contests” I’ve won. I bought concert tickets and didn’t pay attention to the fact that there were boxes checked for things I had no interest in. This really blows because I’ve been applying for jobs and it’s incredibly disheartening to see voicemail notification, only to discover it’s one of those calls.

      I had a boss who never understood why I didn’t answer every call that came on my phone.

    4. SJ*

      I do exactly this. Let it ring and then Google the number if they don’t leave a message (you’re right, if it’s important they’d leave a message). Most of the time the number pops up as a scam number contacting lots of people.

    6. Laura*

      I get a lot of calls from students for whom I’ve left voicemails. They call back having NOT listened to the voicemail! They just say “I got a missed call from this number…?” It’s ridiculous. So I don’t call people back unless they leave a voicemail detailing what the issue is.

      1. White Mage*

        It’s very frustrating when people do that and as someone who hates making phone calls I don’t understand why people do that.

        I think that they don’t realize that in a lot (not sure if it’s some or most) of cases, the main number that appears on the caller ID can come from any extension and not a specific person. It’s that way at my current job and was like that at my current job, but both are small companies (<30 people each) so I can't speak for larger ones. So when someone calls and asks that question, there is no way for me to know who called.

    7. White Mage*

      That’s how I’ve always gone about. Either they’ll leave a message or email me (if they have my email).

    8. Nicole*

      The ones I hate are the telemarketers who call multiple times a day and never leave a message. If you pick up, they want to confirm who YOU are without telling you who THEY are. I had one yesterday and when I asked, “Joe who?” the guy hung up on me! They do that so you can’t get a chance to tell them to take your number off their list. And my number is already on the Do Not Call Registry; I report the calls, and yet they continue. They just change the number so they can keep calling you. I don’t even know what the company name is because they never say!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, if they call and they have to wait for me to research an answer to their question, then they have to wait. Conversely, I can tell them I will call them back but then I get their voice mail and I can’t leave a message or only a vague message.

      I guess it depends on what you do for work and the arena you work in. Make sure you are doing what everyone else is doing and it’s how the boss expects you to handle things. In some places failing to answer the phone is a huge no-no. Know your workplace.

      Really the only way to learn to deal with being “unprepared” is to just keep answering calls and getting used to it. Remember when you call other people and they answer, they, too, do not know exactly what you want either. Watch how they handle their conversation with you to gain some pointers so the phone is less of a beast in your life. Keep telling yourself that no one expects you to spew perfect answers off the top of your head right away.

  67. anonnymoose*

    Got my verbal offer yesterday, accepted, and gave my boss 2 weeks notice today. He knew it was coming since I told him about the promising lead earlier this week. So far, so good. The rest of the team should find out later today and the whole office next week.

    I’m terrified about starting a new job though!

  68. Not-So-Sad Grad*

    On a recent road trip, I read this blog to my mom as she drove. Mom is now a huge fan of Alison and loves guessing what her answers to different letters will be!

    I haven’t had any luck in the information security/IT jobs I’ve applied to and have similarly faced universal rejection when trying for retail and food service positions. Meeting friends and relatives on this trip had made me interested in working in labor organization, and I think I have the professional skills, political experience, and personality traits to make it work.

    However, I live in a high-income area and come from a wealthy family whose politics are not very well in line with labor concerns. Should I try to avoid discussing my area of residence and other signs of wealth (namely, my degrees from an expensive school), or would it be unlikely to make a difference compared to my work history and individual political activism?

    1. Megs*

      I would say to avoid it, but be prepared to address it if it comes up. If you’ve got enough personal credentials, I wouldn’t think it would be an issue?

    2. Self employed*

      That seems disingenuous to me. I also don’t see how you’d avoid talking about going to an expensive school, since I assume your degree would be on your resume. Do you share the same values as the organizations? If so, talk about why you’d like to support the mission. Don’t pretend to be something you are not.

  69. SubwayFan*

    I’ve been searching through the archives, and I can’t find a similar situation.

    I work in Marketing for a tech company, and we’ve had several reorgs. There’s a coworker on my team, “Brian”, who is a nice guy, but sort of lazy. I like him plenty, and always enjoy chatting with him about current events, weekend plans, whatever. But when it comes to work, I want to strangle him.

    Brian and I were hired a month apart and have been here for almost 4 years. He was hired for his experience working with project management. This baffles me because he actually seems unable to manage a project. If you give him a checklist of stuff, he’ll get it done, but not very quickly. He spends a lot of time listening to podcasts and comedy recordings, which I think slows him down. He manages updates to our website and putting together newsletters, but seems to be unable to do basic things like check for typos and broken links. He’s also unable to prioritize. He has a lot of things to do and will often stay in the office until 8 or 9 at night (and this is a very efficient office, most people leave at 4 if their work is done for the day).

    But the big thing that gets me is the stuff he doesn’t know, and he always asks either me or Theresa (a super hard worker on our team, an absolute rock star) to answer his questions. Questions he should know the answer to, or could easily look up on internal documents, in shared files, on the company intranet, etc. I’m getting really sick of it. Last week he asked Theresa if a Product X was only available to Customer Group A or if Customer Group B and C could purchase it too. The availability of Product X has been discussed repeatedly in a weekly meeting that he attends, and there are three places where the information was easily available. Brian should have known the answer, AND known where to look. And yet he comes and bugs Theresa. And since Theresa sits next to me, if she’s not there, he asks me. This is routine. He comes by our cubes 2-4 times per day to ask things like this, if he’s not pinging one or both of us on IM or email. “Where is X information?” “Is this product launching next week?” “When do I need to have this round of updates live on the website?”

    Now in the past month or so, he’s decided he needs to get better at doing things. I’ve tried explaining how to create templates for projects, so he can find all the info he needs. I’ve tried explaining writing down to-do lists, or blocking off time on his calendar. I’m really sick of being his office career coach. I tell him this stuff and he never follows through. He does what he needs to just to get by, or Theresa and I end up doing his work for him, because if we don’t do it, it impacts our jobs. I have the same boss as Brian, and he seems to think Brian gets enough work done, and just needs more coaching, but I don’t want to coach him anymore. Yesterday I finally snapped at him, and he got all hurt and bewildered, saying, “I don’t know why you’re mad at me!” Another coworker suggested I write down all the things he asks me and Theresa each day, and show it to my boss, but I don’t think my boss thinks there’s a problem here.

    Anyone have any coping mechanisms?

    1. Biff*

      Ask him to start taking notes. “We spoke about Customer Y’s specific setup last week. I can’t constantly take time out of my day to repeat instructions andinformation, so I need you to take notes if you are going to ask for my help.”

        1. Biff*

          Can you report back next week or so? I’m anxious to find out how that works for ya.

      2. Blue Anne*

        This is exactly what I was going to suggest. I was totally a Brian in the first few months of my financial audit job. Someone a year senior to me suggested that I start carrying a notebook everywhere and it helped enormously.

    2. Self employed*

      That would make me CRAZY. You and Teresa have to stop enabling him! Otherwise your boss won’t ever see how lazy Brian is. Ugh. I know there have been other letters on letting your coworkers fail, even if it affects your work… Maybe someone can point to those?

      1. LisaLee*

        I agree with this. You and Teresa need to stop being human search engines for him. If he doesn’t know where to find the answer to a simple question, you could say, “I think that’s covered in Manual 1” or “Boss mentioned that in our last meeting, ask her?” When he tells you he’s trying to get better at managing projects, just say “that’s nice” instead of helping him. I think the temporary unpleasantness of him stalling your office for a little while might be worth it.

    3. Nicole*

      I feel your pain. I can never understand why someone would rather wait for someone else to provide an answer when they can easily be self sufficient and get it themselves. I used to get the same questions repeatedly from one particular department so I created a document with all of the commonly asked questions and distributed it to them. After that if they sent me one of the questions, I would respond with the document. This was via email, however, so if this is always happening in person I would respond “check the documentation” without looking up from your work or something to that effect to signal you’re currently busy so they don’t think you’re just being stubborn by “not helping” (even though I think you’ve helped enough).

      1. SubwayFan*

        I like this idea, but the information he needs is so varying, from “How do I create a document on the Intranet” to “What’s the launch date for this product?” that I can’t think of a single document to cover all this. Plus most of it I don’t manage–he asks me and Theresa because he doesn’t want to ask the other teams. It might make him look bad. I’ve started to explain to him that he *does* look bad, and he needs to improve so other people will think better of him. But maybe I could pass him on with “I don’t know this, but Jennifer’s team does.”

    4. Hazel Asperg*

      That sounds exhausting, doing all that emotional labour as well as your own job. Much sympathy.

  70. PCBloom*

    Hi all – my company (an ad agency) is strengthening its CSR strategy. I’m on the committee putting our new plan together and one of our commitments is Justice (the other two are Poverty and Inequality). What would you like to see companies doing in pursuit of ‘justice’? Two efforts we currently have in place are to be diverse as well as inclusive and are pursuing more growth in that area; we are also very focused on being ethical and transparent about how we work on behalf of our clients.

    What do you wish your company did that it doesn’t currently do in terms of justice? What do you wish more companies did? Anything your company currently does that you like?

      1. PCBloom*

        Hi Dawn, thanks for your interest. I’m sorry but can’t share our client list. This is all under the Common Ground initiative with the UN if you are interested in reading more about the project’s aims.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I’m quite sure Dawn didn’t mean to ask for a list of clients, but something more general about who they are. Businesses? Governments? Nonprofit organizations? Large organizations? Small? Family owned? With a social justice mission? Are they progressive, or old-fashioned? etc. etc. etc.

        2. Leatherwings*

          You don’t have to literally share your client list but it’s easier to answer the question if we have a vague notion of your audience.

    2. Pwyll*

      I don’t mean for this to be condescending, but it sounds to me like CSR for CSR’s sake, which can have a negative effect on your intended audience. But, assuming it’s not:

      Are your CSR initiatives your company providing pro bono advertising assistance? If so, I would contact your local public defenders office, or juvenile defender’s office, or legal aid, or even possibly the largest law firms in your areas to get in touch with THEIR pro bono groups in order to provide services to highlight to plight of some indigent litigants or defendants. Or, check some blogs about current legal reforms in your state (juvenile detention and substance abuse seem big now across states) and get in contact with any of the non-profits that are advocating to the legislature to change those rules. They almost always need marketing/branding help.

      But if your firm is attempting to somehow spearhead a justice-related movement itself . . . I honestly wouldn’t. There are plenty of groups seeking to draw attention to justice and inequality in the legal system. They’re experts, so support them with your own PR/branding expertise rather than trying to do it yourself.

    3. Honeybee*

      I work at a tech company, and honestly the best thing that my tech company does in terms of CSR is give a lot of money to organizations and nonprofits that handle the actual outreach work. Not only does the company donate a lot of money to outside orgs, they also match 100% of what we give (up to a certain dollar amount per year); they also pay volunteer orgs a set hourly amount for each hour we volunteer there (so if I volunteer in a school 4 hours a month and log my hours, my company will pay $X * 4 to the school each month). We can get time off to volunteer as well.

      The only things we do in-house are tech-related; for example, we have a program that partners software developers with high school teachers to help teach CS in schools, and a couple of programs to teach coding and software development to girls and/or children from underrepresented groups to increase diversity. We also give generous discounts or give away our products and services to certain types of nonprofits, schools, orgs, etc.

      I’d much rather a company realize they don’t have to be a jack of all trades and instead stick to only providing services it makes sense to provide, while donating money instead if they want to affect a cause they don’t have the expertise to contribute to.

      With that said, ‘justice’ is a broad concept. I tend to think of it in terms of social justice, so here are some things my company does (internally and externally) to do that:

      -They have tangible initiatives that are focused on increasing diversity in our workplace. It’s not a throwaway “we’ll try to hire more people who are different!”; there’s an actual focused plan, with a v-team, with dedicated people working on it and thinking up concrete solutions to do that. And it’s deep – they’re committed to increasing the pipeline from an early age and not just looking around at the college+ level and drawing the conclusion that there just is nobody.
      -We have an unconscious bias training that every employee has to complete.
      -We have a conscious push to be more diverse and inclusive in the products and services that we offer. As an example – I work for a video game company, so we do things like making sure our characters represented different genders, races, sexual orientations, etc.; being sensitive when designing characters from specific cultural groups and consulting with group members to make sure the character is an honest reflection; hosting industry-wide special interest groups and networking events for game developers from minority groups; etc. Again, it’s not a nebulous thing that’s just in the air as a pipe dream; there are programs in place, people whose job it is specifically to think about those things, and people who are assigned or take on projects that are specifically aimed at doing that.

      It’s hard to be more specific without knowing what you mean by justice and what your goals are.

  71. Pin Cushion*

    NURSES I would like your opinion workplace-wise:

    I get allergy shots once a month, I’ve been getting them for four years. There is an absolute parade of nurses through my allergy practice! The parade of nurses makes me uncomfortable because a.) once a, several years back, nurse asked me what my dose was, I refused to get my shots that day b.) sometimes I have dangerous reactions to my shots c.) a little while ago a new nurse managed to get me in the muscle d.) new nurses sometimes ask if I want benedryl in my injection when I know it says I am always to have benedryl in my chart.

    I was seeing the PA last week and I told her I was not comfortable with the parade of nurses, that I would prefer to get my shots from the same nurse every time, and that I felt it reflected poorly on their practice to have such a high turnover because it made me assume the physician isn’t a good boss or the work environment drives the nurses away.

    She (the PA) told me that no, actually she keeps firing the nurses because they do not meet her high standard or because they have an issue with the 8-5 working hours at an allergy practice. She put a note in my chart that the current nurse who I am comfortable with is the only one to give me my shots from now on.

    Is this normal? What do you nurses think? If the nonsense continues I will be switching practices.

    1. Biff*

      I’d switch practices, honestly. There’s a reason your doc has a quality control issue. They either aren’t paying enough to keep good candidates, or they have crap screening processes. I had this issue with dental hygenists at one practice and I just left.

    2. A. Nonymous*

      I’d switch practices too. While it’s really common for clinics to have a ROTATION of nurses, constantly new ones is difficult. Nurses where I work tend to go from days to nights on a schedule and they work 12 hour days. It’s also common for a nurse to spend one day at location X, then the next at location Y.

      But a constant FIRING of them? That’s odd.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I’m not a nurse, but how can it be that ALL of them don’t want an 8-5 shift!?

        And the not meeting her high standards thing is a huge red flag. I wonder if the doctor knows why this is happening?

        1. Honeybee*

          I’m not a nurse either, but my mother and several family members are, and I find the “they find an 8-5 hard” really fishy. According to my mother, the 8-5 positions are actually pretty plum jobs. My mother worked nights at her hospital and switching to the day shift was difficult because it was a popular shift. And many of the regular M-F 8-5 type nursing jobs are the ones that require more experience – and they can get it, too, for nurses who want to leave the less predictable hospital environment. I find it super weird to hear an allergist say they have a hard time keeping nurses; an allergist’s office is relatively predictable, low-stress, and calm compared to the chaos of a hospital or some higher-stress offices like cardiology or something. Lots of nurses want that after 3+ years of experience in med-surg, so it makes me raise an eyebrow.

    3. Laura*

      Whoa. My friend is a PA at an allergy clinic and this would NOT fly for her. It’s a bad clinic and the turnover and bad nurses are indicative of that– i.e. red flags. Find a new place to go.

    4. CMT*

      Just switch now. I think some of the situations you offer as examples aren’t that bad, but if you feel it’s bad, go somewhere else.

      1. Honeybee*

        I agree – I don’t see anything particularly egregious, but I think everyone should be comfortable with their health care providers and their practice. So if you want to switch, then switch by all means.

    5. LCL*

      Not a nurse, but went through almost 5 years of shot therapy. In that time my original physician died, another physician filled in, then two physicians shared the duty, then one of the two took over, then he retired. I can’t even remember how many nurses administered the shots, I do remember being irate that I couldn’t schedule them at a time that was more convenient to me.

      One of the reasons people stay with nursing is because the shift work agrees with them. It is completely believeable that nurses, who have other options, would leave a bankers’ hours job for different hours. And the nurse asking for clarification about something in your chart is a good thing.

    6. Pin Cushion*

      Thanks nurses & others. I think a lot who don’t like the hours are single parents or prefer the 12 hour hospital-style shifts. One of them that left was a nurse from my dermatologist’s office, who I know & like. The nurse that I preferred before that moved. I think some of the turn over is from military spouses moving but the constant turn over bugs me.

  72. Worn Out*

    I have a broad/open-ended question for the open thread today: Are there tips for how to handle working in an environment in which you’ve lost trust in your organization — and seemingly vice versa (or am I doomed to just suck it up until a better alternative arrives)?

    For context, I’m a third-year attorney at my first gig out of school doing insurance defense, and have spent the last 18 months getting very mixed signals about my performance here. Some indications are great: A raise and bonus at the last yearly performance review; increasing responsibility; and when I called a more experienced mentor who’d recently left the firm to take an in-house position for advice, assurance that (s)he hadn’t ever heard anything negative about my work despite being a higher-level employee. But others are more ominous: Regular direct criticism of my organizational and communication skills, treatment of any effort to debrief after projects and explain the thought processes that went into less successful arguments as excuses, and my boss directly telling me he couldn’t stick up for me to his boss about that pattern any more because it would impact his own reputation. (I disagree with his assessment that it’s a “pattern,” but that’s somewhat beside the point — if the person who is ultimately responsible for assessing my work is outright telling me he doesn’t have my back and doesn’t think I can succeed here, why shouldn’t I believe him, especially where I don’t even feel comfortable expressing these concerns directly because I worry that too will be perceived as escalating “excuses”? I don’t read any of this as intentional sabotage, for what it’s worth; I think his goal is something more like path of least resistance/avoidance of micromanaging. At least in theory I think he’d like me to succeed albeit with the least possible oversight from him, but the practical effect is I feel like I’m twisting in the wind here.)

    It’s possible that they are happy with my work and just haven’t told me. I don’t think I’m God’s gift to lawyer-ing or anything, but I do think I have put forth competent professional work for my level of experience, I do note that I must be at least reasonably treading water to have lasted this long already in a flooded industry with plenty of other lawyers looking to replace me in the market, and after 2.5 years without a sick day don’t think my effort or work ethic can be fairly questioned. But if that’s the case, it certainly hasn’t been conveyed. Working in the doghouse permanently is not sustainable. The first time I ever got major criticism here, it spurred me to work harder, try to be better, prove my worth, etc. But after more than a year of more stick than carrot, I’m starting to wonder if we’re on the same side.

    I’m aware that to work for a firm that services municipal clients is to deal with an inherently political atmosphere. Requests for information need to be funneled through the right channels, agreements-in-principle require bureaucratic approval, etc. But when an extensive paper trail is a priority on every file, isn’t it fair to ask: are we as common employees working together to try to get something done for our clients, or is it more important to know where to deflect blame and cut someone loose if a scapegoat is ever needed?

    There has been high turnover where I’m at. I have about 20 peers here, 8 have left in 30 months. None have been fired. Do I just need to stop taking the threats to my job security as credible and have faith that I’m still here? Ultimately, it’s a lot of instability to chronically handle on the cusp of wanting to start a family, have kids, etc.

    1. YouHaveBeenWarned*

      Fellow biglaw defense lawyer here. I may have some advice, but I have a question first: How many people at the firm are criticizing you? Is it more like (a) multiple people at different levels (senior associates, partners) on different cases/teams?, (b) multiple people at different levels on one case/team?, (c) one partner on one team?, or (d) one senior associate on one team?

      1. Worn Out*

        It’s predominantly my direct boss, though occasionally his boss — who is the name partner — as well (we’re a 20 person-ish firm, so there aren’t really more levels than that). For what it’s worth, my direct boss has about seven people under him of varying seniority (I’m fifth of seven); I get all my assignments from him and then work with other team members on them with differing degrees of autonomy (i.e. the work comp expert is also technically under my boss but knows the field better so when I do anything on that subject I mostly just report to that guy (who likes my work and would be my reference from here if I had to move)).

        1. YouHaveBeenWarned*

          Keeping in mind that I don’t know your particular firm, I’d say that this doesn’t sound good to me for your long term prospects there. I don’t actually think you’ve done anything wrong. I believe that you are doing a good job or you’d be getting more concrete information in your reviews about it and more direct signals that you had to shape up or ship out.

          What I think may have happened, based on my experience, is that your direct boss has latched onto something about you/how you communicate that is just not to his personal tastes. Either he got this idea from something offhand the name partner said and has run with it (either because he wants to emulate the name partner’s opinions, or because it makes a convenient excuse whenever the name partner doesn’t like something) or it’s something that just is a pet peeve of his and he put it in the name partner’s head. I have seen this dynamic before. Senior Associate Jane gets all sorts of bitch eating crackers about Junior Associate Fergus’s tendency to start his emails with “hi” instead of something more formal, and turns it into something where she’s looking for all the other indications that he’s a terrible communicator. Then while they’re going over a brief, Jane tells Partner Alice about Fergus’s Terrible Communication Skills, and now Fergus is hearing it from both ends. But when Fergus quits and goes somewhere else, suddenly no one has a problem with his supposedly terrible communications skills.

          Only you know best what to do for your own situation here, but you’re right that always being in the doghouse isn’t sustainable. If you decide that it’s time to move on, I’d recommend taking some much earned vacation this summer, coming up with a game plan, and planning to leave shortly after bonuses are handed out (assuming you don’t have a clawback provision).

          1. neverjaunty*

            Concur with all of this.
            Once your boss had told you that you aren’t going to succeed, it’s time to job search.

  73. Frustrated*

    I work with people who are bullies and they say the meanest things, yet they need constant reassurance. It’s so emotionally draining. My boss and co-workers will say the snarkiest things, but it’s not worth stooping to their level because I’m not like that/can’t think of comebacks quick enough and plus, I know I would get into trouble!

    It’s a toxic environment and I need to get out, but how do I save my sanity until then?

    1. AcidMeFlux*

      Carolyn Hax has good advice for this (raised eyebrows, a flat stare, a short pause and a quiet “Wow.” I also use the flat stare, pause, and flat-affect repetition of whatever they just said. “Do I get my hair cut at Petco. Hmmm. Let´s see. Do I get my hair cut at Petco. Petco. Really. Uh-huh. Well.” And turn away.

    2. Biff*

      “Oh, you know I was in a bad mood yesterday, I hope I didn’t hurt your feelings.” — Them

      “Actually, I felt your comments were extremely hurtful. I’m glad you realized that it could have been a consequence, because I really didn’t know how to bring it up myself. I think it’s best if you consider putting that sort of thing in an email, where you’d have the chance to reread your words before sending them out.” — You

      Adjust as necessary. DON’T REASSURE THEM. You are teaching them that they aren’t being too snarky, mean, rude, demanding whatever.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I worked in a toxic, fast moving environment. This meant no time to think about comebacks. I would use my commute time to think about how I could have handled a particular situation better. I went one situation at a time, what would I say the next time that happens? Sure, that exact situation did not happen again, but my brain got sharper about thinking this stuff through because of repeatedly autopsying what went wrong and how I would change what I did.

      So my overall goal was to throw things down in a neutral place- a place where I did not offend anyone yet they could not find a snappy comeback. And I also developed a system of priorities. I decided to let personal remarks slide because my priority was remarks about my work.

      For example: I dunno why but my hair color became a topic of conversation. I shrugged and said, “I look at it once a day to comb it out in the morning. It doesn’t bother me. Dunno why you are having difficulty.” I shrugged and walked away.
      At one point, a couple of people that I actually liked got going on my hair color.
      Them:”What color do you call that?”
      Me: “Calico.” I shrugged and walked away.
      My lack of interest and lack of participation caused the topic to fade. Then they would find the next topic. sigh. Realize that you are just putting out fires. If you can rise above it in some manner that is your best hope. It really helped me to spend a few minutes of drive time thinking about how I would handle the situation better the next time. I did develop the ability to think on my feet better.

      If you are getting crap about your work, you can insist on nailing things down.
      For example: Monday you are told to do A. Tuesday you are told to do B but never, ever do A. So on Tuesday repeat it back to them, “You are saying, always do B never do A, right?” And they will come out with some stupid thing. Then you say, “It does not matter to me which one I do, I just want to do it right the first time. It’s a waste of company resources when we have to redo and redo. If we nail this stuff down, it makes us look good.”
      Be all about doing a good job, getting the work right the first time, conserving company resources, etc. This is your go-to when they start badgering about your work. It takes time to customize this to your setting, so be patient with yourself and realize even when you win, they will see it to it that you still lose. Sometimes all we get is knowing that we took the high road.

  74. NASA*

    On the verge of sounding ungrateful, I have a work/food story to share.

    On my last day of work at a previous job, my manager bought me a cake. It. was. terrible!

    No one on our team had any allergies, sensitivities, etc. and yet he brought a flour-free, gluten-free, egg-free, dairy-free, what else am I missing-free cake. I don’t even know how it was cake. It tasted awful, but we all just smiled through it. “Yum!!!”

    It’s always good to check for allergies…and in this case, none existed! Bring on the full-fat, chocolate filled caaaake!

    1. Not Karen*

      Ha! I once had the opposite problem where a team leader bought everyone who left a certain bakery’s cake that was teeth-achingly sweet. After the fact I found out I wasn’t the only one who thought so, but like you we all just smile through it and compliment the cake. When I left I managed to switch out the cake for pastries that weren’t as bad.

    2. Laura*

      As someone who is gluten- and dairy-free, I am so sorry. A (good) cake without eggs… hmm. That’s tough.

      1. Young'n*

        Yeah. I mean tortes are phenomenal flourless cakes. But egg CD-R and flourless? Why???

    3. Not So NewReader*

      He probably paid some good money for that. But yeah, if you are not used to eating that way the food seems very dry, no moist cakes going on there. You did the polite thing, not much more you could do there, really.

  75. Work Ethic*

    Do you think it’s possible to improve your work ethic? If so, how? I feel like I’ve been lazy my entire life and I’m wondering if there is some way I could get past that. I work in a very cyclical industry, where some parts of the year we’re very busy and other times we’re incredibly slow. During those busy times, I can make myself focus and get everything done because of the momentum and adrenaline of trying to beat a deadline. But during slower times, I can hardly force myself to do anything and procrastinate terribly. I have always gotten positive reviews, but I’m afraid my lack of work ethic during slow times will eventually catch up to me and bite me in the rear.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Sure, procrastination is a habit just like timeliness. It’s important not to think of “laziness” as a characteristic of you, but as a set of behaviors that you choose to do or default to.

      I think changing the habit requires understanding why you procrastinate or have a low work ethic in the first place. Why does it take adrenaline or a deadline to motivate you to work? I have had the same problem and for me it’s that when I have enough time to think, I get bogged down in my own perfectionism. When I’m exhausted and rushing, I can shut down the part of my brain that agonizes over every choice and constantly tries to optimize the path. There are lots of other potential reasons. Since you mentioned momentum, I wonder if you might struggle when the next step isn’t obvious, and so planning out what you’ll do each day might help.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Understand that the cycles actually FEED your problem. If we have to work at an incredible clip that is usually followed by a period of sluggishness and fatigue. Picture a roller coaster, up and down with the cycles.

      Make sure that in busy times you are getting enough rest and eating well. This will help the lows not to be so low and give you energy for the busyness. During your busy times make a list of things to do during slow times. When the slow times hit, pull the list out and start on it. To keep yourself moving along remind yourself of how important it is to have X in place when the busy season hits again. If you can, find ways to make repetitive tasks easier when you are so busy.

      The big picture is how do you find motivation? Some people only find motivation when there is a crisis and this leads to roller coastering. TBH with you, you have already found your motivation. You do not want people to see you slacking in slow times. Use that to work FOR you. If you have to, during slow times write a to do list before you go home at night. The next day run down your to do list and do everything or as much as you can. Repeat the process by making a new list for the following day.

  76. cjb1*

    Happy News! / Employer Brag!

    I am leaving in a few months for maternity leave and not coming back due to my husband getting an extremely competitive job in Washington DC. I gave my notice in late April (over 4 months before leaving).

    After husband negotiating start date, we realized we would have a 1 month insurance gap. I spoke with employer to see if there was any way around that and found out two things: 1. yes, they can set my official leave date back in order to make sure I have insurance coverage and 2. since I gave them so much notice and have been a loyal employee they are paying out my maternity leave benefits (12 weeks of 66% pay)!!!!!

    Small, family-owned companies are not necessarily always bad to work for. : )

    2. Blue Anne*

      That’s wonderful! Congratulations on all the excellent stuff going on in your life right now. :)

  77. Mirilla*

    I could use some advice on this. Here’s my experience:
    Saw a job in the paper. Had to mail resume & cover letter (no email & no internet job posting). I received a call a couple weeks later, on a Sat. (Health care setting so I figured ok but a bit odd.) He said he’d like me to come in so he can talk to me Monday. Ok. Sounds good.
    Monday we met & he seemed very enthusiastic about me before I even spoke. The original job was receptionist/bookkeeper but now it was just bookkeeper. Ok. He said his current bookkeeper hinted at retirement so he wanted to get someone trained but sounded like he didn’t know when she would retire. I met with her but didn’t ask her about her reitrememt plans because it seemed odd to ask. She showed me around the building but we only spent 5 minutes in her office (which I would share with her.) It was small, windowless and in the basement. Not ideal but I could adjust. She did not tell me anything about what duties we would share or anything.
    Back to him, he said “I am making my call tomorrow & you are a strong contender.” I was expecting a 2nd interview but he moves fast. He called me on Wed, his day off, offering me the job. I had a list of questions for him but he wasn’t sure of some answers because he was away from work, so I felt bad even asking. I said “can I have a day to think about it?” He said sure to call him tomorrow.
    I realized that I need more info on the job and my duties before accepting so when I called him Thurs. I asked if I come come in again to iron out details & most importantly sit with the bookkeeper to get a feel for the job. He said ok but called an hour later to cancel, saying he has to meet with the board to see what direction they are going in with the job. ? Now I don’t know if the job was even approved before he offered it? Does any of this sound off to you?

    1. Dawn*

      Mail in a paper resume = red flag #1
      Bookkeeper just “hinting” at retirement with no real transition date = HUGE red flag #2
      Office in a basement with no windows = red flag #3
      Crazy fast hiring timeline for a job that may or may not exist = red flag #4
      You try to ask for more information gets a “whoops job hasn’t been approved by board yet” = red flag #5

      You can and should do better!

      1. BRR*

        I don’t consider #3 a red flag, just a preference that many people would consider a deal breaker. But the others are pretty bad. It sounds like it’s a position he might have not been authorized to hire for and has no idea what this position will be doing. Unless you need a job really bad, I would advise to not take it.

    3. Mirilla*

      Yeah, thanks for the input. While I was there, I had a good feeling about it (probably because I haven’t had too many interviews from all my job search efforts), but later on I put all the pieces together and was like, hmmmm, maybe this isn’t so great after all. The main issue being if this woman isn’t retiring for a few years why would they pay both of us to do the job? Some people hint at retirement way before they actually retire. The idea of being trained sounded great but I wasn’t sure which things I would do and which she would keep, or if we would share everything.

      I am working now so maybe that makes me more choosy. I got the impression that he wanted an answer right away and that kind of put me off, especially since I needed more info. on the job and the benefits. I don’t know if his claim to be meeting with the board is legit. It may be a way for him to cancel the job offer since he thought I asked too many questions. Just weird all around.

      And yes, I agree #3 isn’t necessarily a deal breaker for some people. In fact, some people may love that kind of confined, quiet space. I could handle one or the other I think. No natural light but a decent sized room or a small room with a window. I had asked him if that was a permanent office location or temporary and he seemed confused as to why I would have an issue with it (ps his office is huge and filled with natural light.)

  78. Interviewee*

    Sorry if this is a little convoluted, I’m somewhat sleep deprived. I’m in the middle of actively searching for a new position.

    On the plus side, I’m getting good responses — I have no doubt it’s due to all the advice on cover letters/resumes from this site, so thank you! A lot of these responses are escalating into in person interviews, which means I have to take time away from work. I know this has been addressed before, but I thought I’d throw it out again in case anyone has any pearls of wisdom: how do you deal with needing to take time off for interviews?

    I work in a very small office, so any one person’s absence is always felt. Sometimes interview requests are on short notice and while I try my best to rearrange or push them out a little later, I also don’t want to turn interviewers off by being difficult to schedule. It just seems like it’s turning into one day a week for interviews (again, not a bad problem to have!), but with companies having multiple rounds of interviews and needing to go back multiple times, I foresee it being an issue with my current position. I don’t want to seem flaky to my currnet job, but I need to take the interviews! Maybe I’m overthinking it.

    tl;dr: how do you deal with needing to take half days/full days off work for interviews?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I had a small medical issue that suddenly came up when I was interviewing. It required quite a few vague appointments, but I told everyone it wasn’t anything to worry about.

    2. Moral panic*

      Always be cautious with using medical appointments because bosses often request notes when the frequency increases because they suspect you are skipping work for this stuff.

      I prefer to use bank/lawyer/accountant appointments because those never prompt a note. If asked you can always just say you are dealing with a personal issue and need to meet with “insert professional” multiple times to get it sorted.

      That way it also makes sense if you are more dressy than normal and carrying paperwork with you on your way out.

      It even helps because it is also common to get squeezed in with little notice or that they requested to meet you asap.

    4. Wheezy Weasel*

      I deal with it by evaluating whether I need to give them the time at all :) If you’re in demand for interviews and don’t urgently need to leave your current position, you might run less of a risk of turning people off than you think, just by being selective with your time. I’ve always declined a third in-person interview out of principle: if you can’t get people together to make a hiring decision in less than 2 meetings, I don’t want to work in that environment. If the employer can’t give you a firm answer such that ‘you’re one of three candidates for this position and we want to make a decision by next week’ I may even push back on a second interview for a company that isn’t as desirable as the other interviews I’ve had. If I have three companies after me, the one with the best potential fit will get my day off per week, the others need to fight for it.

      One script that I liked was:

      ‘I’m sorry, I need to be sensitive to my current employer and not be out of the office next week because of [big task] Is there a way we could meet at an alternate time or on the phone to better determine whether I am one of the preferred candidates for another in-person interview?

      1. Interviewee*

        This is great, thank you so much for your comments. I think I’m just being a little overly sensitive to it right now because I see it potentially causing a problem just because companies happen to respond all at the same time instead of more spread out. But this is a good perspective — I will definitely keep that script in mind if it becomes overwhelming.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You might be able to tell some employers, “I owe my employer an 8 hour work day. I am not comfortable with using PTO to job hunt. Is there any way we could meet after business hours?”

      Some employers might be impressed.

  79. Marzipan*

    I would just like to note that the highlight of my working week has been successfully breaking into the Director’s office, *and* having him arrive back in the building just as I was taking a selfie to prove I’d done it. He is in the background of the picture, looking slightly confused.

      1. Marzipan*

        He was slightly confused. Although he’d have been unamused had I *not* done it, since he wouldn’t have been able to get in. The other Director who shares that office, and on whose behalf I began my efforts when he got locked out, now thinks I have superpowers, though!

        2. ND*

          TOO FUNNY. I love when you’re doing something that seems naughty for the powers of good. Like the TV show Leverage!

          1. Jennifer*

            Hah, I thought of Leverage too. Parker would approve. Of at least the break-in if not the selfie.

          2. zora.dee*

            I broke into my friend’s house with a credit card once, when they locked themselves out, I was so hearing Leverage music in my head!

          3. Pennalynn Lott*

            While on vacation at a rental house once, my friends and I accidentally locked our car into the detached garage. The garage door was an automatic, but the kind where you can’t just yank on it really hard to “jump start” it. Using a pair of tweezers I had in my purse, I broke into the electric panel on the side of the garage, then used a penny to connect the two contact points (that would normally be connected to each other by turning the key in the lock on the panel) and — tada! — the garage door opened. I drank for free at dinner that night. :-)

  80. Inn Cahootz*

    I was put in charge of hiring someone to help our CEO perform some basic duties and help him, as he put it, “get organized.” Well I found the perfect candidate and gave him a job offer. The only issue is that she is in a wheelchair, but that did not seem an issue based on what the CEO was looking for her. After he met her, he told me to fire her because she can’t do everything he wants like drive around town and pick up his laundry. These tasks were not explained to me before and he noted that the job was purely administrative because he needed help getting organized. What do i do now? I can’t fire because I think it’s illegal.

    1. Leatherwings*

      You need to talk to an HR person. Stat. You can’t fire her just because she’s in a wheelchair, but she also needs to be able to perform basic job duties. The CEO shouldn’t have had someone hiring for a job that they didn’t understand the basic duties for, and he may be opening the organization to a huge liability. This isn’t something you should handle without an expert, and you should tell the CEO that.

    2. ND*

      But…she may be able to drive. And she may be able to simply get his laundry delivered. Huge grounds for a lawsuit if she’s fired.

      Best of luck with your boss

    3. GigglyPuff*

      So he doesn’t think people in wheelchairs can drive?
      Wow, yeah I’d do a fast walk over to HR

    4. BRR*

      I find it a little odd for the CEO to not at least briefly meet the finalists. It’s an uphill battle (and wrong!) to fire this person legally since these things weren’t core duties of the job before they were hired. Like others have said, is this person capable of picking up his laundry?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Are there tasks in the job description that necessitate driving? I am betting not.

      It looks like mind-reading is mandatory for your job and probably mandatory for hers also.

  81. EllenMarie*

    Hi everyone.

    Please help! I’m starting a new job and it will be my first job as a salaried/exempt employee. What differences should I expect versus being hourly? Any unspoken rules? Do I have to let anyone know if I come in early/stay late?

    1. Dawn*

      Ask your boss how they’d like you to handle notifying of appointments/ coming in late accidentally/ how much heads up they want when you take time off/ what they’d like your hours to be and go from there. Some bosses are going to be really strict about wanting butts in seats for exactly 8 hours a day and wanting lots of notification about needing to take time for an appointment (and billing it to PTO), and other bosses are going to be laid back to the point of not caring as long as you get your work done. Only way to find out what kind of boss you have is to ask!

      1. EllenMarie*

        Ah, got it. I didn’t realize it varied so much depending on boss/organization. I was worried it would seem childlike to ask about these kinds of notifications!

        (Thanks for your response.)

        1. Dawn*

          No oh my GOD not childlike at all. Some bosses will tell you this stuff straight up but some won’t think to so you have to ask about it yourself. With salaried positions stuff like hours/appointments is really going to vary from boss to boss so it’s critical that you get on your boss’ level immediately so you don’t inadvertently step on toes.

          1. Wheezy Weasel*

            I usually ask ‘what is your preference on X’ for my bosses when asking questions like this, especially if there isn’t a clear policy. That way they can answer it in several ways:

            ‘Well, the policy says you need to call when you’re sick, but email works for me, so just do that, OK?’
            ‘Here’s where the policy is located and we follow it as written’
            ‘We really don’t have a policy here in the department, but the company policy is here, so as long as you’r not breaking company policy, you’re OK with me to structure these communications how you like.’

            I’ve found that a subtle language hint like ‘preference’ gives a nod to the fact that they may not rigidly enforce an overly strict policy, or if there is no policy at all, it forces them to think about how they’d like people to communicate.

        2. Ultraviolet*

          Did you see the letter here yesterday about talking to an intern about professional norms when you aren’t their supervisor? There was a lot of discussion in the comments about how hard it can be to pick up on these things, and part of the reason is that it does vary so much from place to place!

    2. Leatherwings*

      So this will depend a bit on your office workplace, but exempt employees generally have a lot more flexibility on hours, so typically you won’t have to let anyone know if you come in early or stay late. Your pay is the same either way. The expectation is that you work enough to finish the job.
      It’s /usually/ no big deal if you need to step out for a dentist appt. and the like, although I clear those with my boss ahead of time.

      1. EllenMarie*

        Thanks! I’m excited for the potential to have a little more flexibility. We’ll see!!!

    3. BRR*

      It depends on the office culture. My last job I was exempt and had almost no flexibility. I could leave 5 minutes early to beat traffic if I had somewhere important to be. My current job is so flexible it’s like a cirque du soleil performer. I can start an hour late etc and don’t have to make it up as long as my results are good. A friend is an auditor at a big four firm and she has to work at least 50 hour weeks and has had to ask off for Sundays (not counted against PTO).

      I’d start by just observing what others do and then you can ask about it.

  82. And get off my lawn, too*

    I have a dotted line supervisory position over “Jamie”, who is overall a good worker but prickly. During meetings, he will often play with his phone. This drives me up the wall. He’s mentioned he gets antsy during meetings, and sometimes he’s checking things related to the meeting but other times I can see he’s just surfing. If the meetings had a lot of people or were longer than an hour, or if he didn’t do this during agenda items he should be engaging in, I don’t think it would bother me as much. But the last time was during a Skype interview, and I had to practically sit on my hands to not snatch the phone out of his hand and tell him to pay attention to the candidate.

    I’m Gen X and Jamie is younger. My husband says that for most people, playing with their phone is not meant to be disrespectful, and that most people don’t take it as being respectful. I only have a flip phone I reserve for emergencies, so yeah, maybe I just don’t get it. What do you all think?

    1. Dawn*

      Playing with your phone during a meeting is hellah not OK, never has been, never will be.

    2. Moral panic*

      I think he needs to be told that he has to leave the phone out of the meetings.

      If he gets antsy you can advise him to scribble on a notepad because even though he isn’t giving 100% focus, it looks so much more respectful to be writing notes – even if just doodling or making a to do list.

      Many of us become oblivious to how we are perceived ehen using our smartphones.

    3. anon who needs a name*

      Being on your phone during a meeting is not okay no matter what generation someone is. I have to disagree with your husband that it’s not meant to be disrespectful. It’s a sign that you’re bored by the person you’re with, so you’re using your phone to entertain yourself.

      And I say this as someone on the older end of the millennial generation who would be lost without their phone. I’ll browse it when I’m bored waiting for the subway or the elevator or when I have nothing to do at work, but I put it away when I’m in a meeting or talking to someone face to face.

      1. Sadsack*

        Agreed. If he is getting “antsy,” that means he is bored with the meeting. I would simply tell him that I need him to focus on the conversation and to stop bringing his phone. Or reconsider if every meeting needs every person in attendance. This really makes him look bad, in my opinion.

        1. zora.dee*

          Well, he could mean “fidgety” which, I also get during meetings. It doesn’t mean I’m bored, it’s just how my body feels. But that’s why I always have a notebook and pen with me in meetings! I can doodle to help with my fidgeting while my brain is paying attention.

          I would just put my foot down that he can’t be on his phone during meetings any more, it reflects on you and you don’t like it. Tell him he should have a notebook and pen that he can use if he is antsy, full stop, end of paragraph.

    5. Temperance*

      No, it’s disrespectful, and *most* people do find it to be so when their subordinates act disrespectful. Your husband is wrong here.

      If “Jamie” gets bored during meetings, tell him to take notes, write lists, whatever – he’ll look engaged.

    6. neverjaunty*

      Your husband is wrong.

      Try pausing the meeting and staring at Jaime until he looks up. “If you’re finished? Great, thanks. As I was saying…”

    7. Ann O'Nemity*

      Last week I literally told someone, “Eyes up, phone down.” We all chuckled because it was so elementary school teacher-ish. So I can totally relate!

      But seriously, have a chat with Jamie that his phone use in meeting is coming across as rude and unprofessional. Sometimes meetings *are* boring, but that’s no excuse. I mean, you’re paying him right? Use this whole thing as a teaching moment for the sake of his professional development.

    8. BRR*

      Not an age thing. I’m in my 20s and my boss is in her late 30s and is always on her phone. I’m going to smash it one day.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Right. Most of the execs in my company are in their late 40s and up, and a lot of them stay glued to their phones during meetings and training seminars. It’s very disrespectful to the people talking/presenting. We know you’re busy, we’re all busy, so if we can manage to be present for thirty minutes, you can too. (And if you truly can’t give your full attention – some of our training classes are hours or even days long – then either wait for breaks to check your phone or don’t attend.)

    9. Honeybee*

      This is not a generational thing. Few things are, really, IMO. I’m 30 (and a Millennial), and I don’t play with my phone (a smartphone on which I rely very heavily) during meetings. Occasionally, if I don’t have my computer or a notepad, I will take brief notes with my phone, but I usually announce that intent – “I’m going to take some notes on my iPhone” – so people know that I’m not surfing Facebook or texting a friend. It may occasionally be a youth-related thing, more because younger people don’t yet know the norms of the workplace, but I don’t buy that fully either – you learn in high school and/or college not to use your phone during classes and meetings.

      Most people don’t do it to be disrespectful intentionally, but it IS disrespectful. You’re not giving your full attention to the task at hand – to me, it’s really no different than pulling out a pleasure book or playing a portable video game during a meeting. It communicates the message “This is boring and I don’t find this important.” It’s just more socially acceptable because you *could* be doing something work-related on your phone, even if most people actually aren’t.

      When I managed/supervised college students, I often pulled them aside about this issue, but I phrased it as a ‘for your development’ kind of talk. Something like “Just so you know – I’ve noticed that you use your phone during class/meetings/etc. Are you taking notes, or are you doing something else?” If they said they were doing something else (which they usually did), I’d tell them “Using your phone during class gives the impression that you’re disengaged and bored, and that you don’t care about the class/meeting/whatever. It doesn’t make you look good, and you’ll attract negative attention to yourself – which is not the impression you want to leave in a professional setting.” If they said they were taking notes, I’d acknowledge that, but let them know that using a phone is often perceived as a time-waster and not a note-taker, so they need to be explicit up front that they are doing it or maybe choose to take notes another way particularly if they’re new. I usually got thanked for the advice.

      Obviously for a coworker/employee I’d maybe use less…maternalistic? language, but something along the same lines.

  83. Moral panic*

    Does anyone have any advice for a young adult who is in the wrong job?

    I did a 3 year college business diploma that I did not really want to do and I hardly found interesting. The only reason I graduated with honours is because I am good at cramming and math. My parents, high school teachers, and guidance counsellor were shocked when I suddenly veered from health care to business in grade 12.

    I was bookkeeping for 2 years (job hunting for half of that) and wanted a change because I was bored and uninterested in my work. I knew I wanted an admin job that was different but after a year of no call backs I caved and took a job with an accounting firm.

    I knew in the interview I didn’t truly want it but I was desperate for a change. I told the interviewer I wanted something different and she told me it was essentially the same job but more complex.

    I am 4 months in and I want to cry! I feel like it’d look horrible on me to be applying for new jobs so soon (not even sure what I truly want) and they’d call my current boss to find out what was up with me. I also worry that another admin job could put me in the same exact position.

    I even considered going back to school for nursing next year but it seems like a joke to only have worked for 3 years after graduating before switching fields! Not to mention having to work part time, accumulating tens of thousands in loans and having no guarantee of employment or job satisfaction after that.

      1. Moral panic*

        In high school I took a weird phase of not wanting to do work (typical teenage hormones/first boyfriend) so I dropped my science classes and convinced myself I could get through life doing jobs like being a cashier because it was easier.

        I got caught up in the hype of college applications and wanted to pick something to do – I picked accounting because I liked money and was good at math. Everyone questioned my choice but I was convinced accounting was my future, because like all teenagers – I thought I knew everything!

        I even had my doubts through the program but I thought that was “typical college” and knew it’d be more work/money to switch programs. I also thought that anyone could succeed in anything if they just put their mind to it and it was impossible that I’d start working and realize it wasn’t for me.

        1. Biff*

          Oh. I see.

          I think you need to speak with a therapist to deal with underlying issues before you make a big decision about career and life directions. This sounds like it might stem from depression.

        2. Amtelope*

          Seconding the suggestion of therapy. It sounds like you’ve made a lot of decisions here without really thinking them through, and that you’re still not sure what you actually want or what kind of job you’d be happy with (or at least not unbearably unhappy — it’s worth the standard note that first jobs after college are rarely tremendously fun and rewarding, and you shouldn’t expect them to be.) I’d put some time and effort into sorting that out before making any more changes of direction.

          1. Moral panic*

            I made a therapy appointment for early next week to start sorting this out.

            I am thinking I may have been depressed for years and now that I’ve started taking care of myself that the cloud has lifted, it certainly explains the sudden de-motovation to go into health care and wanting the easiest path possible.

            It feels like I’ve been on auto pilot for years just going through the motions and now that I am focusing on my life that I basically don’t know where I’ve driven myself or where to go next.

            I never expected my post-college jobs to be necessarily fun but the position I am in now is really the highest I can go on this path without becoming a professional accountant… the only possible growth is learning new tax rules and whatnot.

            I’ve put all decision making on hold until I am able to speak with a professional.

  84. Frenchie*

    Is it a appropriate to tell my boss that I would like to transfer to another position within the company but in a different city before a position is actually available? I’ve been wanting to move back to my home city for the last 2 years, but have been so anxiety ridden about leaving this current position and office. I’ve finally come to the conclusion that a move back is the best thing for me right now. It will allow me to be closer to family. I’ve been feeling depressed, and isolated in this city which has been affecting how I feel about my job as well. I don’t have the same drive and joy I once had for it. I would really like to move back but stay within the company. Positions are posted all of the time on our internal job bank. I know a position that I like will be posted eventually. I just don’t know if I should tell my boss my plans prior to or when an actual position that I want Is available. What’s the best strategy to go about this? I’ve been with the company for 6 years.

    1. Laura*

      If your company frequently does position transfers like this, definitely speak up now. For example, “Hey Fergus, I am really interested in the Chicago position when it opens up. I have family there and would love to return while still impacting XXX Company in that area. Just wanted to let you know. What advice do you have for me about this?”

      1. Frenchie*

        Yes the company does transfers and HR has said before that they can help with this. Thank you for the advice. I think that is a great way to approach my boss and will be doing this next week.

  85. anon who needs a name*

    So, for the past year, my company has been needing iPads to test some of our products. Our products are compatible with almost all digital devices, but we don’t have many company owned devices in-house. One of my coworkers was asking around about iPads a few months ago because he needed to see if a new product worked on it. Our department doesn’t have one and when we need one, we have to borrow it from IT or somewhere else. Those are hard to get because they’re almost always loaned out.

    My coworker saw me reading on mine during lunch one day and asked if he could borrow it. I said no. When he pursued, I said it was my iPad, not a company one. He took it to our director who asked if I’d let the department use it. Again, I said no because it’s my personal device I bought with my own money and I’m not going to let work borrow it for how long and mess around with it just because they don’t want to buy one of their own for the department. The director let it go, but my coworker is still upset about it.

    I’m annoyed and don’t think I was in the wrong for this, but does anyone think I was? I’d also say no if work asked to borrow my personal computer or phone to test something. I understand my coworker needs one to test his work, but I don’t think it’s my responsibility to let him borrow a personal device for work.

    1. Dawn*

      “I don’t think it’s my responsibility to let him borrow a personal device for work.”

      Yuuuup! If your company needs stuff tested so bad, let them buy an iPad or three for people to test stuff on. If your co-worker continues to get huffy, feel free to tell him that you think it’s ridiculous that the company doesn’t provide iPads for testing purposes and you’re happy to go to the director with him to argue that some should be bought (but continue to hold firm on him borrowing yours!)

      1. anon who needs a name*

        I’ve definitely sympathized with him and I know he’s stressed by not being able to get one of the ones we have with the IT department, but I can’t feel too guilty about it because it’s not my problem. Worst of all is that our company totally has the budget to buy one iPad, but they just refuse to pay if there are others in other departments we can borrow.

        1. Temperance*

          Honestly, he can just follow up with IT and make himself a pest. Easy enough, right>?

      2. SophieChotek*

        I agree; it is your personal decision to bring your ipad. You should not need to share for work purposes; plus if you open that door, that will only encourage business to make people use their personal devices instead of providing the necessary equipment to get the job done. If testing is so crucial to your business, then yes, your department needs to purchase a few more, if IT always have them loaned out.
        This is not your problem.

    2. Rebecca*

      I don’t think you were wrong at all. If a requirement of your business/job is that work needs to be tested on a device, then the company should buy a device for testing, pure and simple.

    3. Megs*

      What?! No way! You are totally in the right here and if it’s been happening repeatedly, they just need to buy one themselves.

    4. Pearl*

      Absolutely not! There may be personal info on there – I shop from my tablet and sometimes do banking, I’m logged into my email and Tumblr, which send notifications automatically. There may be personal photos that you don’t want everyone to see. (Or not, but do they need to know I have 300 photos of my cat?) They may need to install apps that could make your device run slow or buggy. And if someone drops it? Are they going to pay to replace it and everything on it? Will they give it back to you over lunch?

      It’s a very ridiculous request. If I had my tablet at work I would be willing to, once, look up our work website to see how it displayed, but I would never hand it over to someone. It’d be like giving my phone away. Nope, nope, nope.

      1. Helen*

        This! I’ve lent my iPad to family members before, and had to basically log out of everything (even though they probably wouldn’t have looked) just to be safe, and it was a real hassle to log back in again afterwards.

      2. DoDah*

        I’ll let my co-worker use my iPad to test in the vein of “Oh, can you look at these landing pages and this email?” But I don’t ever hand it over and he only ever asks once a month, tops–so it’s all of about 10 minutes of my time. I think if it were much more than that IT would need to provide him with a device.

        ***Co-worker uses his personal devices to check how creative displays on Android.

    5. CMT*

      Your coworker was completely out of line for pursuing this after you said no the first time.

      1. CMT*

        Also, if he thinks the solution is to use an employee’s personal device to test things, he should just buy his own damn iPad.

    6. Temperance*

      Nope. Your coworker is a total wang. I wouldn’t feel comfortable loaning my personal devices for work purposes. I value my privacy highly, and frankly, I don’t trust others with my stuff.

    7. ginger ale for all*

      I think your co-worker was out of line to escalate your no. Your personal possessions are not work tools. He owes you an apology.

    8. Ann O'Nemity*

      I agree that it’s 100% inappropriate for the coworker to demand to use your device, escalate the issue when your answer was no, and then have your director ask you to loan it. (!!!) It’s a red flag that the department won’t just purchase a device if needed. What next – they start asking to borrow money?

      Further (IT folks back me up here) isn’t there testing software that just simulates various platforms so you don’t have to do testing on actual devices, various browsers, etc?

      1. Observer*

        That kind of software can get expensive quite quickly and also needs management. Not necessarily the easiest solution.

      2. KR*

        There is testing software, but honestly it’s probably easier to just buy the technology. We keep a tablet on hand to use with our Go Pro and anything else that we need it for. If this is an on-going problem, which it sounds like it is, your department needs to just bite the bullet and buy the technology.
        If they don’t want to house it themselves, would IT be willing to put a tablet aside for your department? We bought a GoPro specifically for our parks and rec department to use since they have summer interns who use them but the camera belongs to our department.

    10. LQ*

      I had something like this come up recently and I needed to see if it was really a problem so I kind of went around in a panic asking people what it looked like on their phones. It shouldn’t have happened at all but was a cascade of like 30 things going wrong to need it. If someone said yes I just said go to this site and click on this link and what do you see. A few people just gave me their phones to do it, but most just searched for it (and a couple overheard me and did the same). The two people who said no (for me one was busy and one didn’t have their phone) it was no big deal. I was basically asking a huge favor. You don’t get to be upset about asking a favor and getting a no.

      That said a few times in the last few years I’ve brought my iPad in for testing things. These were for projects I was involved with, times when I offered it, and times when it wasn’t going to be out of my control. I would not let someone from another department borrow it! I wouldn’t let someone from my team borrow it. I don’t think it is your responsibility at all.

    11. LCL*

      If I let someone use my ipad on the company network, I might have to answer for all of the not safe for work sites that I visit at home on my own device and own network. I would never allow someone to use my device for company work.

    12. Observer*

      Your co-worker is totally out of line. I know this stinks, but I’m going to suggest that you don’t bring anything like this to work any more. There seems to be a bit a lack of boundaries here about personal equipment, and you really don’t want someone deciding to “borrow” your ipad when you step away from your desk, or start trying to cause an even bigger ruckus because you won’t let him use the thing, even though it’s your job.

      Your director should have shut the request down instead of asking you to let the department use it. The fact that he went the other rout means that you’ll almost certainly be having issues as long as you bring your stuff in to work. It’s also fairly stupid from a work perspective. In addition to the issue the others brought up, you do NOT do baseline compatibility testing, which is what this sounds like, on equipment that you have no control of, which may be compromised and whose configuration you know nothing about.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      The boss backed you not your coworker. Think of it as your coworker is embarrassed and let it go. You absolutely gave the correct answer. It’s his problem not yours.

    14. Honeybee*

      No, of course you were in the right. My tablet has all kinds of personal information on there, including access to Apple Pay, my passwords, my email, etc. No way I’m letting work use it for experimentation, especially when the reason is that they’re too cheap to buy their own. Also, who’s going to buy me a new one if/when someone breaks it? What about when the battery inevitably wears down faster because there are so many people using it? No thanks, nope.

      1. Honeybee*

        To add-on, I work in an environment in which I have to test things on many different devices (mostly game consoles and gaming PCs, but also mobile phones, tablets, and other devices occasionally). This is one of our BIGGEST expenses. It costs money to acquire all the hardware for the testing…but it’s necessary to do the job!

        Sometimes if you’re a big enough partner of the company making the hardware, your company can get discounts on the hardware or even just borrow it for the long-term from the hardware company.

  86. Olly*

    Hello everyone! I posted last week but was too late to get many answers. Here’s a copy/paste.

    “Hello everyone! I’ve been reading AAM for a few months now and I really want to thank Alison for her advice and tips!
    I’m an undergraduate student with 1 more year to go. I’ve only had one job so far, working retail on and off for 3 years (I have done some volunteering in high school). I’m not really planning to get a full time job until I graduate next summer because my course load won’t allow it + I honestly feel overworked with school already. I’m trying to craft a resume for the first time using Alison’s advice and I have a few questions.
    Background: I’ve only had one part time “student” job, working as at Subway (“sandwich artist”). I started working there in high school and I usually have 3 shifts a week, so not that much. I don’t work during the summer because I go back home across the country to visit my family or I travel. I have multiple instances of volunteering, all during high school, especially in Grade 12, and one over the summer last year (doing translations and helping coding a videogame for my friend) Coding is irrelevant to my major/career path. I simply decided to help my friends and it’s something I wanted to practice “for fun”.
    I would like to get a job in Marketing/Advertisement. This is what I’m majoring in (with a minor in French). I live in Canada.

    – Considering my limited and non relevant work/volunteer experience, should I start my resume with the Education section?
    – I’m bring nitpicky here: when listing my Bachelors degree, should I only mention the Graduation date or the entire time I attended college? Should I add that it was full time? I’m planning to leave my GPS off (3.3) Should I list my high school diploma? I did French immersion all through middle and high school and graduated with a “Bilingual High School diploma”. My minor is in French and considering I want to work in advertising/marketing, am fluent in French and live in Canada, I thought it could be useful and not completely inappropriate to list it. But I’m wondering if it will come across as young/naive.
    – I want to make sure employers realize that I don’t have a lot of experience because I’ve been attending school full time and that I have no gaps (except 3 months every summer for 3 years).
    – Because I only had one paying job, should I have a “Work/Volunteer Experience” or “Relevant Experience” category, listing my retail job and volunteer work together? It wouldn’t be obvious that the coding/translation work I did was unpaid. If asked, I would not hide it. Is that okay or can it be considered misleading?
    – At the end of my resume, I’m planning to have a “skills” section. I’m not going to list anything subjective, but I www thinking about including my fluency in French, intermediate German, coding skills and photoshop/Lightroom knowledge. These would all be practical skills that are not obvious from my resume, except for the French part. Is that okay or too much of a filler?

    Thank you everyone who will take some time to answer!”

    1. Leatherwings*

      Question 1 – Yes, for a couple of years it’s fine to start with education
      Question 2 – Don’t list HS stuff, include the fact that you speak French somewhere else – under education or skills sections. Nobody cares about HS once you have an undergrad degree
      Question 3 – If you’re a new grad, they’ll get it just by the way your resume is structured with education on top, don’t worry about that.
      Question 4 – I think having a work/volunteer experience category is perfect. I don’t think it’s misleading to put down work experience that was unpaid.
      Question 5 – This seems good to me! If there’s a way to highlight those skills through work or volunteer experience (coding) do that too.
      Good luck!

    2. anon who needs a name*

      1. Yes. You can move that to the bottom of you’re resume after you have work experience.

      2. Graduation date is fine. Leave off high school since no one cares about HS once you’re in college.

      3. Most employers will assume you have no experience because you’ve been in school. Putting that you’re in school full-time will look weird and a bit out of touch.

      4. That works! You can put unpaid if you want. I don’t think it’ll raise any flags.

      5. A skills section is the place to list your language skills, not underneath your degrees and education. Language and important skills like coding and photoshop are useful and definitely not filler!

  87. Ann Non A Mouse*

    Warning, vent with lots of emotional stuff ahead.

    Last Sunday my fiancé left me out of the blue. I got home from work and his stuff was gone. He blocked me on social media and when I tried to call or text him I got that the number was out of service. His family and friends won’t take my calls either. There was no note or anything, all that he left behind was a receipt signed by the landlord showing he paid his half of the rent for the remainder of the lease.

    The next day my cat died. I knew it was coming because he was old and had been moving slower but he wasn’t in pain and was still eating behaving like everything was normal. He went in his sleep but I am heartbroken and miss him so much.

    The day after that I found out I have skin cancer and there are six places where the doctor wants to cut me because of his concerns. I already had one mole removed but they have to go deeper there and remove more.

    The next day (night) after that there was an explosion/fire at my apartment because on of my neighbors was either cooking drugs or feel asleep while he was high or something. I didn’t even know anyone in my apartment used drugs (which probably sounds a little naive on my part). I lost everything except for a shoebox full of pictures and a few items of clothing. The apartment is beyond saving so as of now I am homeless and crashing on my dad’s couch.

    That morning I had called my work to tell them I wouldn’t be coming in because of the cancer and the fire and my boss called me back and told me not to bother ever coming back because they were going to lay some people off anyways and now was as good of a time as any for me. His assistant asked for an address where my things could be sent and boxed up my stuff and had it sent to my dad’s place along with a letter of termination due to layoffs due to costs and downsizing and a check for my outstanding pay.

    It’s been seven days and nothing else has happened but I have been an absolute mess. Reading this blog is part of what I’m trying to do to feel normal but I am floundering everywhere else. The most messed up part is that for some reason getting laid off hit me the hardest out of everything even though it was just a stupid job. This is the first time I’ve typed it all out anywhere and I know people are worried about me but I don’t want to talk to anyone I know and I wish they would just pretend everything is fine.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I don’t even know what to say! I am so so sorry to hear about this.
      Virtual hugs and sending good thoughts your way!
      I wish I could help you more.

    2. Kristine*

      Wow…you are going through a lot right now. I’m sending good vibes your way and hope things turn around for you soon.

    3. Dawn*

      Uh, holy shit. Your life has suddenly turned into the first 5 minutes of a redemption saga movie.

      First of all, MASSIVE HUGS. This is just… you’ve had more happen to you in a week than most people do in a lifetime. Rely strongly on your Team You (go read Captain Awkward for an explanation of what that is if you don’t already know) and allow yourself some space to work through all this stuff- go to therapy if you can. And don’t be surprised about the job thing hitting you hardest of all- losing a job is like a gut punch even if you’re prepared for it, which you definitely were not.

    4. afiendishthingy*

      Give yourself permission to be a mess. May you never have a week this shitty again.

      Is there anyone in your life you could ask to come just sit and watch Netflix with you and NOT TALK? You have a lot to process, andn you need your alone time too. But people also want to help and don’t know how, so if you can give them an instruction like “bring cheesecake, watch Bob’s Burgers with me, and say nothing” – or whatever you need – it may cut down on the anxiety of pushing away well-wishers.

      1. Megs*

        Yes yes yes! That’s the most epic horrible week ever. I would totally shut up and watch Netflix with you.

      2. Turanga Leela*

        This is exactly what I came here to say. Give yourself a break and be with people who can help you take a break. You might even make two categories: the cheesecake + Netflix friends, and the friends who are useful for getting shit done (like looking through apartment listings and finding out how to file for unemployment). They can overlap, just make sure they know what kind of help you need at any given time.

        And Jesus. I’m so sorry. This is just a terrible saga, and I hope things turn around for you. Wishing you a speedy recovery from the cancer and a happy resolution to the rest.

        Also, I never say this kind of thing on AAM, but fuck the fiancé, seriously. What a shitty thing to do.

    5. A. Nonymous*

      oh my goodness. I’m so sorry that this is happening to you. I really think that you may want to talk to a professional a bit about this. There are free services. You DESERVE to take some time to yourself after all of this. Just breathe a little while. I hope things turn around soon.

    6. Caledonia*

      Wow. Just one of those is awful let alone all the others. I’m so sorry :( I hope you can get all this s**t over with in one go and then good things will happen to you.

      If you can, I’d go and see a therapist. It’s alot for anyone to handle.

      *offers virtual tea & cake*

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This is horrible! I’m so sorry all this has happened to you. You deserve life to be really easy on you for a long time now.

      If you want commiseration, you might find it in Tig Notaro’s new memoir about her horrible year where she got a potentially deadly stomach infection, and then her mom died, and then she got breast cancer — all within weeks. (She’s actually funny, despite the subject matter.)

      1. ginger ale for all*

        She just linked a video to her facebook from PBS Newshour where she speaks about this. So I am thinking her Newshour segment is tonight maybe?

    9. Pwyll*

      Almost exactly this happened to a good friend of mine 3 years ago. I’m so sorry, Ann.

      Take some time to be a mess, you’re allowed to. Take care of yourself. Allow yourself to just curl up with a friend or family and just cry.

      My friend lost everything she owned in the fire, including her cats, and was fired when essential work documents were destroyed in the fire. Her fiance left her the day of the fire and literally only communicated with her once more via certified letter to get his cut from the insurance proceeds. She felt lost for a few months.

      Guess what? She survived. She has a job better than she even could hope for, a far better apartment, and she’s now engaged to someone who is so much more amazing, and is happier than I’ve ever seen her in her life. You will get there too, once you brave the storm. Hang in there! You can do it too!

    10. animaniactoo*

      Just offering hugs, and I’d ask is there any way you can reach out to the wellwishers/concerned peeps and say “I can barely process any of this, can we all just act normal until I’m ready to talk about or deal with any of it?” or just say “I love you guys, but I’m really not up for talking to anybody right now, I hope you understand, and I’ll be in touch when that changes”?

    11. ND*

      Wow. I’m so sorry.

      Get unemployment. Get medical care. See a therapist.

      If possible, let job hunting wait a bit…

    12. Jennifer*

      OMFG.

      I am so sorry. As they say among the hippies, you have been Towered (referring to the tarot card). Literally everything has been destroyed. God. Of course you’re floundering, you’ve lost everything!

      You have my sympathies, big time. Not that that helps. Do your best to recover on the couch however you can. Try to tackle one thing at a time when you can and get help from friends and family if they’re good for it. I wish you better luck than you’ve had this week.

    13. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Oh my goodness. I am so, so sorry. You must be overwhelmed – nobody could ever be prepared for a week like the one you’ve had.

      It turns out your employer sucks. I’m sorry you had to find that out while you were in the middle of this, but it IS good to know. You shouldn’t be spending your time and talent somewhere that treats its employees like that.

    15. Ann Non A Mouse*

      Thank you all. I will be sure to check out that book Alison.

      Logically I know everything will be fine. I know the cancer is just where they can cut it out and it hasn’t spread to organs or lymph nodes and I won’t need any chemo. I know it was better that he left me before we got married because it would have been a bigger mess if we were married and co-owned a house and had co-mingled finances and possibly children. I know it was my cat’s time and that he had a good life (17ish years) and didn’t suffer.

      My apartment was owned by a company that has properties and buildings all over the place. They had insurance, they will find me a new apartment in the same city for the same rent I paid or less. They had insurance and I will be able to replace my wardrobe and other stuff. I didn’t lose the shoebox which had pictures and all my important sentimental stuff (which I will be keeping in a safe from now on). I had left my wallet at my dad’s last time I was there so the only ID I lost was my passport and all my other ID and debit cards I still have.

      I had been mulling going to college for years because I never did but I couldn’t because my job didn’t pay enough or took up too much of time time. Now I guess I have no excuse not to do it. I can go part time at night and online and find a service job that works around my school schedule.

      Thanks again everyone. Even though you are internet strangers it means a lot. I know my family and friends mean well but I think I will tell them I don’t want to talk about it and it’s fine for them to act normal around me. I hope you all have a happy Independence Day.

      1. XOXO*

        I just wanted to jump in with a hug first.
        Second, you were let go from work due to “lay offs” and you qualify for unemployment benefits because of this. Apply. This will allow you the space to take a bit of a break on making big decisions because listen… you are going to mourn.

        It’s not going to be a linear process, it rarely ever is. It’s like a bunch of scribbles on the page where you pick up and put it back down again.

        It’s still fresh, you may logically/intellectually feel fine today. You are able to rationally think it all out. But next week you might feel gut punched and it will hurt a lot. Then maybe anger. Then maybe more grief. etc etc. There are STAGES in mourning, but again, they’re not always/often linear.

        You need to be sure you allow yourself to do this (great advice upthread) and don’t beat yourself up if one day you wake and feel like you simply cant get out of bed that day. What your fiance did was awful, and how he handled it even worse – that’s a lot of loss in a short period of time and nobody deserves that.

        Now cliche as it is to say – it seems you are at “rock bottom”
        Once you are able to, you can look at this as a clean slate and fresh start and only go up from here, whichever way you decide and whatever that looks like for you.

        But again, be kind to yourself and allow yourself to mourn. I wish you the best of health (physical, mental/emotional) in the coming weeks and months and I hope everything turns around quickly for you.
        Best wishes
        XOXO

      2. LCL*

        I’m sorry all of this happened to you. One thing you should consider, if you are in the US, is looking into your health insurance situation.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I am profoundly sorry this rain is happening in your life.
        Am sending truck loads of good vibes, positive thoughts and prayers your way. I have come to learn that when people band together to wish well on a particular person, that person’s life usually improves. Sounds like a bunch of woo-woo but we go with what we see that works, right?
        Please keep us posted on how you are doing and let us know if we can help in some way- even if it’s just some more warm thoughts.

        You sound like your mind has a good handle on everything. BUT, I am well aware that it takes our hearts a long time to catch up to where our minds are at. Cry when you need to, tears cause a chemical reaction in the brain that keep the brain healthy. And that is what you need right now a healthy brain to think your way through all this.

        Not comforting right now, except as an acknowledgement that this is HUGE: Sometimes crappy stuff happens in our lives and for the rest of our lives it is the go-to comparison for New Situation. As in, “Is this New Situation worse than Crappy Stuff?”
        And the answer is usually no, it’s not worse. We realize that we have an inner strength we never knew existed before. It’s a quiet strength, but it’s there.
        May your path be smooth and your loads get lighter.

    17. Jean*

      +1 to everything already said by everyone else.
      You deserve better! Hang in there and take care of yourself and keep on keeping on. You’ve already shown that you are resilient (as per your post of 3:18 pm) which is half of the battle. Good wishes on your decision to go back to school.

    18. Rahera*

      I’m so, so sorry. What a horrendous week you’ve had. I’m thinking of you and wishing you all the best.

      1. Paquita*

        I am late to the Open Thread this week. :(

        {{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}
        Take care of yourself!

  88. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Here’s a fun question for you: if you dressed nicely for an interview and the hiring manager showed up barefoot, what would you think? How would that affect your impression of the company?

    My co-worker (with whom I have a ton of issues anyway) is hiring someone to support her. We have a very laid-back office with no dress code, but there have been a lot of discussions about interview day decorum. For instance, we have a dog-friendly office, but we all agreed to leave the buddies at home when people come in (we do tell them it’s a dog-friendly office in the interview invitation). My boss, who takes great pride in our casual environment, even made a comment after the interviews were all done that he could finally put the Euro Cup on in the background. My co-worker, however… she slipped out of her sandals while doing some work (this happens in our office) but when it came time to meet with the interviewee, she didn’t put them back on. Just waltzed in the conference room. I’m told she even announced that she was barefoot.

    Now, I realize that I am a bit of a fuddy-duddy. I have relaxed my own stance on bare feet in the office (OK when sitting on sofas to work, not OK when walking around). And I think that a person coming into a company should really see what the company is like (I told my junior colleagues that they shouldn’t “dress up” when interviewing people). But I think it’s plain rude to not put some damn shoes on your feet when talking to a stranger.

    Am I off base here?

    1. Leatherwings*

      No bare feet walking around in the office. It’s one thing to kick off your heels under your desk, it’s an entirely different thing to walk around without shoes. No. Especially for an interview. Your coworker needs to get a grip.

    2. Biff*

      I think you should have the dogs at the office when people come in so they can see what it’s like. A bunch of happy sleepy dogs will make a different impression than 15 terriers trying to kill each other. I’d like to see in person that the pooches got along before taking up work there.

      As for bare feet…. uhm. I couldn’t care less unless they are filthy and uncared for. If you have scary curly toenails are the raunchiest case of toenail fungus I might care. But normal feet in a reasonable state of cleaniliness and grooming? Not a problem.

      1. Sadsack*

        I agree about the dogs. I kick off my shoes at my desk but wouldn’t walk around that way. I had a manager who used to occasionally go to the copier and back barefoot, but it didn’t bother me.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        We thought about the dog thing, because they’re all really great dogs. We have a very small office and it’s usually one dog at a time– two if my co-worker brings both of hers in– and only one is a growly little diva. But then we thought about the distraction, for both the interviewee and the dog, and how our office is echo-y so any mild barking (“Oh, hey, Mr. Mailman!”) carries a lot… I think that’s something we’ll save for second-round interviews. My own buddy would love it– he likes to “greet” people and walk them to their desks, so maybe I can train him to walk interviewees over to the waiting area.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would expect the interviewer to wear what is acceptable office wear for that office on that day, no more, no less. While you are feeling each other out, an employee is expected to adapt to the employer, not the other way around, so an interviewee adapting to impress an employer is understandable (presuming they can make that adaptation permanent, if necessary). However, an employer altering things to impress an interviewee is not only ridiculous, but I believe that it is deceptive if it is not a sustainable, systematic change, and what are the chances of that happening?

      tl;dr version: Yes, I think you’re off base. ;) I’d be thrilled that, after I was senior enough, I could stop wearing shoes at my desk…unless I had to impress a client/customer/grand-boss.

    4. Betty Sapphire*

      If I were the interviewee I would be a little grossed out seeing the hiring manager in bare feet. I work in nonprofit arts and the culture is pretty laidback compared to, say, my best friend’s law firm office culture but not to that extreme… I feel like walking around barefoot is a recipe for disaster whether that be in injury or illness (I also have a phobia about stepping on Things That Hurt, so).

      To answer your original question, as an interviewee I would wonder what standards Interviewer BareFoot has. If she can’t be bothered to dress appropriately, to whatever standard the company holds, I wonder what else she doesn’t hold in high regard. I’m sure that isn’t the case with BareFoot, but that is what my first impression would be, as someone who doesn’t know the office culture.

    5. Megs*

      I’m a big fan of bare feet, and back before my open office-days, would regularly go without shoes at my desk, but I would say nope to doing that in an interview. It’s one thing to show that the office is relaxed, but without context I think it’d come off as rude.

    6. CMT*

      If I were the interviewee, it would be a flag of a warm-toned color, but I would have to evaluate it in context. If everything else seemed normal, I’d just assume that interviewer was a little odd.

    7. BRR*

      I think it’s kind of gross BUT if that’s how it is at your office I think it’s important to show candidates what it’s like.

    8. Afiendishthingy*

      I seem to be unable to keep my sandals on for extended periods myself, and I admit to walking around the room barefoot somewhat frequently- but would never go meet an interviewee like that! I don’t think you’re off base.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      To me, it’s only odd because it’s not consistent. No dogs, but bare feet are fine. It doesn’t make sense to me but anyway…

      Just as an aside: I have had dogs most of my life. I am not keen on going barefoot in areas with a dog. My not so obvious reason is because it is possible to get a dog hair stuck in your foot. This happened to me once. It was like a RED HOT needle in my foot. I have had needles from the doctor and none of them hurt like this. I was pretty shaken mostly because of surprise. I sat down and started to remove the hair and it dawned on me that the hair went in at a particular angle. If I wanted to get the entire hair out, then I would need to take a second to see the angle it went in at or I could break the thing off INSIDE my foot. wth. I carefully found the angle and tugged. It was almost as much “fun” coming out as it was going in. NOT. I did get it and it was sore for a while afterward.

      When you said bare feet and dogs in the office, I just cringed.

  89. Tau*

    Not job-searching yet but starting to prep…

    How, exactly, *does* one go about doing a long-distance job search while employed, anyway? It’s not like you’ll be able to take half a day off for a “doctor’s appointment” for the interview. Do you book a week’s holiday in the place and apply to as many places as you can before then saying that’s when you’ll be around? Take single days off as they come up and fly out for interview and back in one day (and hope that the exhaustion doesn’t show)? Only ever Skype interview? (That seems risky, I’d like to see the actual premises I’d be working in…)

    All the options just sound inordinately exhausting to me, but at the same time plan “resign, move back in with parents, job-search from there” has definite drawbacks. Especially with an uncertain economy.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I haven’t done this myself, but I’ve had friends who have. Basically, they requested initial interviews be done by phone or skype and only flew out when they were in the round that meant they were a serious candidate. Any time they had to fly out for one interview, they notified the others where they were in the running that they’d be in the area and would be available to meet if the company would like, and they’d appreciate the opportunity to come see the office in person even if a formal meeting wasn’t possible. One friend did take a week off, another took two 4 day weekends so they had 2 days in the area and time to get back and recoup, etc.

      1. Tau*

        Ah, that makes a lot of sense – and the 2-day weekend plan sounds pretty sensible, it’s the length of time I’d usually book off to make trips back worthwhile anyhow – and can be pretty easily disguised as visiting family if needs be. Thanks!

    2. Jubilance*

      Generally I’ve had 1-2 phone interviews before an offer was made to fly me out to interview in person. When I had a job with every other Friday off, I used that day as an interview day and flew out Thursday after work. Last year, I was flown out and I wound up just taking 1.5 days off from my current job to interview, towards the end of the week.

      How flexible is your work with time off? I work for a very flexible company so it wasn’t weird for me to be gone for a couple of days during the week.

      1. Tau*

        Hard to say! I’ve got a lot of PTO by US standards (I’m in Europe) with the expectation to use it all, so taking a few days off here and there shouldn’t be an issue if I don’t overdo it. Heck, between various vacations and holidays I had basically half of April off, didn’t work a full week in the whole of it, and nobody said a word.

        However, they like advance warning – handbook says 1 week per consecutive day of PTO, I like to give them more because they can be pretty slow about approving it. I don’t think I could get any on short notice without an explanation and/or some form of stern talking to, although I might consult with coworkers. Not sure if “can we plan an in-person interview 2-3 weeks in advance?” is reasonable when job-hunting… :/

  90. Not my circus*

    Hey librarians! We have a new hire at work and she is constantly trying to read at the reference desk. I am not sure why this bothers me so much but it does. She is new to the field.

    Should I say something? She is technically still working on her degree, so maybe she doesn’t understand norms, but anywhere I have worked, this is a big red flag. I have no authority over her, but feel like I should let her know.

    So am I just being a crank?

    1. Manders*

      I think you should talk to her about it. This is exactly the kind of thing I wouldn’t have known intuitively in my first job out of college, especially since plenty of colleges allow work-study students to read or do homework during slow periods at their jobs.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. Especially at the library. when I worked in the library during my graduate degree, as long as looked up when we had patrons and had our other work done, it was encouraged that we study/show we were using the resources of the library.

    2. Lily Evans*

      Definitely mention it to her. I’ve worked (as staff, not a librarian) at three libraries now and that wouldn’t have raised any eyebrows as long as her other work was getting done, so she might just not realize that it isn’t okay at your library.

    3. ginger ale for all*

      You are not being a crank. Unless it is professional reading for the job, it looks bad. I would give her a heads up before her boss does.

    4. dear liza dear liza*

      If that’s your culture, definitely share that with her. I wouldn’t say it’s the professional norm, though. I’m at an academic library and we’re dead. Most of the summer classes have moved online and so while we still staff the desk, just in case someone wanders in, reference is nearly nonexistent. The desk is also not set up ergonomically, so it’s very tough for people to do regular work out there. Consequently, a lot of reading goes on.

    5. MoinMoin*

      Agree with the others about mentioning it to her. I know I would appreciate a heads up on how it’s being perceived if I were in her shoes as I could understand why she may think it’s okay. And if it isn’t obvious what else she should be doing, you may want to give her some suggestions in the vein of “I’m not telling you to do this stuff but if you’re bored, these are things you can do to stay occupied” or whatever’s appropriate. I’m just imagining if she were writing in to AAM: “When I finish my work, I read at my desk. I’m at a library, after all, but I take care to still be available to patrons if they come up. My coworker took me aside to let me know that this might not be perceived as I intended and I understand, but at the same time what am I supposed to do, just sit there staring ahead waiting for something to do? I’m going crazy!”

    6. Aisling*

      If she’s reading a physical book, tell her to start with ebooks. As a reference librarian myself, I know that sometimes it’s just dead, and there isn’t much else you can do. Reading an ebook means she’s also looking ahead (at the computer), not down in her lap, and will be able to notice patrons who need help more easily. Also- you mentioned that you do not have authority over her, so does your manager mind that she does this? If the manager has seen her do it and hasn’t said anything, you wouldn’t have any reason to, even if it’s not something you would do.

  91. Rebecca*

    I realized this week we have no emergency lighting in our office after the power went out and my windowless office door was shut. The only light was from my monitors, thanks to the power unit under my desk. I had enough time to shut down my system, but had to borrow a flashlight to use the restroom (we have to stay for 4 hours before we are allowed to leave, and then we must make up our time as non-exempt workers). I suggested rechargeable flashlights, and where to buy them inexpensively, since I use them for emergency lighting at home, but I haven’t heard if we will be getting them or not.

    I’m glad I work during the day, at least.

    1. Is there a PA in the house?*

      What? That’s crazy! And to make you sit around for 4 hours? Are you in an area where power outages are common?

      1. Rebecca*

        It’s not too common, maybe once per year or so. And yes, that’s the rule, we have to wait in case the power comes back on, so we can resume working, and if it doesn’t, we can go home but must use vacation time or work extra during that week to make up the time we missed.

        1. Artemesia*

          There are crank flashlights — they work to help you get to an area with windows or whatever, not to read or work by. I used to have the flashlight in the car always dead as the batteries run down so I got a small crank flashlight for emergency use.

    2. afiendishthingy*

      There’s an emergency light over my desk that turns on and off randomly throughout the day – maybe when I have a particularly good idea?

      Seriously though, making you stay is ridiculous.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I bought my own little flashlight and hid it in my desk. I would get batteries at Dollar Tree, where they were super cheap. My company was never going to give us emergency lighting. Ever.

  92. CA Admin*

    I am ready to kill one of the other assistants in our office. I’m not sure if it’s that she doesn’t care or if she’s just stupid, but she’s probably the worst hire we’ve had in years. She constantly makes mistakes. She’s slow. She has no judgement about which directions to follow and which to ask the other assistants about. Things that should take <1 hour take her all day and have numerous mistakes. She's already been transferred from one team to an easier team because the head of that group needed someone better. The rest of us are so fed up with her, I actually yelled at her (in front of our mutual boss) the other week and I didn't even get a slap on the wrist.

    There's nothing to do about it. The decision to fire her is not up to me. All I can do is limit the damage she can do to my group's work and projects and not cover for her. Hopefully she'll hang herself with enough rope. But damn, she's at a higher pay grade than I am and she's a total fuck up. It's totally maddening.

    1. Is there a PA in the house?*

      Ugh. As a manager, I’ve had 4 hires in the last year that just don’t seem to get it. And as a manager, I’ve tried to help them. One quit after a month, another transferred to another team after 3 months, another is still in our group but not on my client and people use him for easier work but he doesn’t really do much of anything, and the fourth is still on my team. I understand your frustration because I’ve had some medium workers who just need a little coaching to get better, and then there are those that just seem to be clueless beyond help. The employee that is currently still on my team has three years of experience at competitors and I’m baffled by how little she knows. I’m still trying to help her but I can’t help thinking sometimes that this job just isn’t for everybody and is she ever going to figure this stuff out?
      Anyway, my only advice would be to try to have compassion. Not that you should cover up her mistakes or stop her from being fired, but yelling might be a bit much. Nobody likes to feel like the screw up, even if it’s true.

      1. CA Admin*

        I’ve tried compassion and I’m not a yeller. When I went to go talk to her, my boss actually commented that she knew something major must’ve happened because she’s never seen me like this. I don’t think I’ve ever actually yelled at anyone at work before. I’m just at the end of my rope.

        She tried to change my group head’s travel without talking to me first. As in, she called our travel agent to change his hotel (for the next business day!) without talking to me. I’m lucky that our travel agent is such a rock star and let me know before doing anything because it would’ve messed everything up for the whole week for a very senior member of our firm (more senior than any of the people she assists, even though she’s a higher pay grade than I am). I know she was just trying to be helpful, but that’s such a basic no-no that I don’t trust her for any of the projects we’re working on together. Who does that?

        1. Observer*

          Find a way to not yell. Once is one thing, but if it’s ongoing, you’re going to look bad.

          Why on earth did she try to change the travel arrangements? It would probably be useful to know. The more you understand where her mistakes are coming from, the more you will you be able to protect yourself. But, also make sure your travel agent know just how grateful you are that he called you first. You want to encourage that kind of behavior.

          But, you totally have my sympathies. People like this can really make life difficult.

    2. ND*

      Bad hires are the worst!!

      We contacted a temp-to-hire agency and brought on 3 people to our sale team all at the same time about a month and a half ago.

      One temp is constantly on her cell phone. She does that thing where she puts it on her lap and leans over it, to try to hide it. Keep in mind, every single other person in the office just has their cell phone next to their computer to check the occasional text or call. Her use is so constant, she has to try to hide it altogether.

      One temp turned into a rockstar, with sales out the roof. Unfortunately, this has made her dismissive and cocky. Wanders in an hour and a half late, lunch for an hour and a half (we only get 1/2 hour here), constantly talking about how she immediately goes home and gets blackout drunk. I’m all for high-performers getting a bit of extra leeway, but a temp with only a month behind her?

      The last sales person lucked out and got hired on immediately. And now he repeats the same questions, openly admits his SOP doesn’t make any sense to him, complains about the supporting material from his first day and refuses to read it. Also likes to go on about how he always gets blackout drunk.

      Gross. Not impressed.

    3. Christopher Tracy*

      The rest of us are so fed up with her, I actually yelled at her (in front of our mutual boss) the other week and I didn’t even get a slap on the wrist.

      You and your boss were so wrong here. You don’t get to yell at people in the workplace no matter how incompetent they are, and your boss should have shut that down.

  93. A. Nonymous*

    Hopefully I’m not too late to get in on this. I have an issue that’s resolved-ish that I’d like some takes on. It’s about ~~DRESSCODES~~

    I work in the medical field for hospitals as a Biomedical Technician. I’ve been doing this job for over 10 years now and I’ve got a great reputation with my coworkers, manager, and hospital staff. During the day I wear scrubs, sometimes scrub caps, depending on what areas I’m working in. We’ve recently opened up a new facility where another person’s manager has a real issue with my appearance.

    I’ve got a lot of tattoos and a blue mohawk. It’s never been a problem before, it’s not like I have it spiked up or in the way, usually it’s just in a ponytail. A manager in a different department noticed my hair and complained to my manager about it. He’s always pointed to the dresscode and that’s been that. A few months ago this manager (who I’ve never spoken to) pushed hard enough that now hair color is one of the things that they can enforce.

    I sat with my manager and we worked out a good compromise in my opinion. I wear a wig to meetings and scrub cap when in scrubs. Hair’s covered, I figured the problem was solved. It’s gotten back to me that this manager is livid that I still have the blue mohawk. She’s probably seen me when I come into work as I wear street clothes and scrub up upon entering the hospital as is required by my health network.

    My personal feelings on dresscodes aside, my work is good, my rapport with coworkers is good, and my customers within the hospital network have sent glowing reviews. If I come in on an emergency call I don’t throw a wig on or scrub up if it’s a MAJOR emergency. I’m a bit worried that this manager will take umbrage with this and cause my manager more grief, but when the emergency room calls and there is a vent down my personal appearance doesn’t matter anymore. So far it hasn’t been an issue, in fact, most everyone at my hospital thinks that I should have pushed back about the policy as it’s not uniformly enforced. I have taken to keeping a scrub cap in my car for any JUST IN CASE issues that could crop up.

    So, what would you guys do? Do you think I covered my bases enough?

    1. Dawn*

      Do you want to risk losing your job over a blue mohawk? If no, dye it. If yes, go back to your manager, tell them that your workaround might get overlooked if there’s a true emergency and are they OK with that OR (and this is what I would do) tell your manager that the official dress code doesn’t give a damn about your hair and you’re going to stop altering your appearance to make the other manager more comfortable. Also if the other manager is male and you’re female, there’s a potential power dynamic/sexist attitude thing going on that might be worth making a stink about as well (couldn’t tell your gender from your letter).

      1. Biff*

        Oooh, that’s a really good point. For some reason I’d read it as crotchety female manager and blue mohawk dude, but if it’s the other way around it could definitely be stemming from the fact that some male managers feel that it is their purview to force women on their team to be sexually appealing to them.

        1. A. Nonymous*

          We are two ladies, but I still don’t owe her prettiness, yanno? My wife was concerned that this whole mess was because I’m out, but I don’t really think so. I don’t work closely with this manager at ALL, we’ve never really spoken.

          I deal mostly with her supervisors in regards to equipment though, so I’m sure that’s how she’s seen me.

      2. A. Nonymous*

        I’m not going to change my hair color or stop getting tattoos. I do keep the scrub cap in my car, as I’ve said, but there are some cases where it is an actual life threatening emergency and I may forget in the rush to get my job done. My manager and most of my workplace is extremely supportive of me because of my work ethic and my skillset.

        The manger in question and I are both female.

        I’ve been hesitant to make a stink about it because a lot of employees that are way lower on the income chain than I am also have alternative appearances. It costs a great deal of money to look the way we do and I don’t want to cause them undo hardship to get their hair colored/stripped/lightened/whatever.

        1. Jennifer*

          Even if you dyed your hair back, it would take awhile for a mohawk to grow back in to “normal” looks. Does she realize that when she complains?

          1. A. Nonymous*

            Who even knows, man. The whole thing feels kinda surreal, I’ve never so much as had a minor disagreement with anyone in the system before. I’m a show up do my work, be polite, head home kinda person.

      3. A. Nonymous*

        I also realize that I may have sounded a bit short with my reply. I didn’t mean to come off that way. Thank you a bunch for the advice. This helped a lot to put things in perspective.

    2. Biff*

      She’s livid that you are wearing a wig to comply with the dresscode? Did I read that right?

      That’s ridiculous. I mean, unless it is an obvious cheap wig that convinces no one and looks completely unnatural. Then I can see what the issue might be, but if it’s a fairly reasonable looking wig, then this goes into vendetta territory.

      1. SophieChotek*

        It seems like you have a very good compromise to me. I don’t really understand why they are so upset. I hope things work out for you.

        1. A. Nonymous*

          Thanks, my boss and I thought so as well. So far it’s working out fine for me and really showing her in a negative light, to be honest. I’m in no danger of firing.

      2. A. Nonymous*

        I think she may just not like alt people? Or she had a fight with someone in her department over hair color and wants to use me as an example.

        I do costuming and a lot of alt scene sort of stuff on my downtime, it’s a really cute blonde lace front, no one can even tell.

        1. NacSacJack*

          Could it be the gay thing and she’s just picking on your appearance because she can and it sets you apart?

          1. A. Nonymous*

            I really don’t want to believe that. Like, I super don’t want to believe that. This whole system has been nothing but supportive and welcoming to both me and my wife. I’d hate to think that’s the case. Sure, there are super conservative people who work in hospitals and it COULD be, but considering we don’t work closely with each other I don’t even know.

            In short, I guess it could be, but I’d really just hope she’s a bit staunch in presentation and NOT a homophobic person who is staunch in presentation.

    3. animaniactoo*

      I’d talk to your boss about the possibility of his pushing back on this policy, as being something that is invasive, not necessary, and something that he was not given an opportunity to weigh in on. He has, for exhibit A, his stellar employee who has been working there for years and has had no (or very few) issues with their appearance being a problem. And his wish not to penalize said employee and force them to change a longstanding personal appearance just because another manager deems this “inappropriate”.

      1. A. Nonymous*

        My bosses exact words were “someone has a bug up their ass” about the whole thing. I didn’t pry because I don’t want my service to be colored (lol) by a negative opinion of her. I really do think that she’s got very strict ideas of what is and is not acceptable and wants to dictate that to the rest of the hospital network.

        She’s the only one with an issue at this point, so I suppose it’s all on her.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Right, that’s kind of my point – she got her way on this because she’s the one who has an issue and pushed it. However, if another manager (and maybe more than one) pushed BACK, then her way may be repealed and her opinion doesn’t dictate. HR may essentially have seen no reason *not* to approve her requested change, but if your manager gives them one, they may pedal it back.

          1. A. Nonymous*

            You know, that’s an excellent point! I think I’ll mention it on our next coffee break/run. We’re such a go-with-the-flow department that him saying something would get other people to speak up.

            Thanks!

    4. Is there a PA in the house?*

      Ugh, wtf. What is with people needing to control other people’s appearances? I know of managers at my company that still think pink/red nail polish is ok but the blue/green family is unprofessional. AKA managers that think the “rules” from when they entered the workforce haven’t changed in the last 10 or 20 years.
      Sorry I don’t have any great advice for you but similar to what Dawn said, I’d make a bit of a discrimination fuss if there’s any merit to that whatsoever.

      1. A. Nonymous*

        I know, right? I suppose I was just miffed about the whole thing because I don’t feel like I owe anyone prettiness. I’ve worked my rear end off to get where I am professionally and to be degraded to basically what I looked like by someone else just really rubbed me the wrong way.

      2. Biff*

        I think appearances can be a problem (right now we have an issue with someone who regularly sports visible underwear and extremely casual clothing) but I agree that beyond a certain point it’s just a control freak thing.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I was a little stunned in the elevator yesterday morning to see someone with a plunging neckline shirt that very nicely displayed her Victoria’s secret bra when it passed the cleavage area.

          I don’t get it. But she doesn’t work for my company.

          2. NacSacJack*

            This drove me up a wall at my first job. Very beautiful, very full-breasted coworker would consistently wear a skirt with matching jacket (skirt-suit?) with a deep red teddy or silk chest thing (can you tell I’m a guy) underneath and I’m like, “Hello, we work in an insurance company – why dress like that?” I got taken aside and encourage to go out and buy suits and button up shirts – Ummm I don’t have any money??

            Is there any reason to show cleavage at work?

            1. ginger ale for all*

              I show slight cleavage because I am overweight enough that any hint with a dip in it shows a bit of a valley but I swear, it is just so I am comfortable.

            2. Is there a PA in the house?*

              Some women are bigger chested and can’t help it. Or sometimes you just like that shirt and don’t really realize how it fits. Or sometimes you gain weight or have hormone changes (breasts tend to get bigger monthly with PMS) and you might not realize. I am small-chested so it’s not usually a problem for me but occasionally some cleavage shows and I’m fine with it because I think I look good and it’s not excessive. I guess it’s a comfort / fashion thing, but agreed too much in the workplace is not ideal.

            3. animaniactoo*

              The word you’re looking for is a camisole. 8•)

              As long as no more than the very top of her cleavage was visible this was completely appropriate.

        2. A. Nonymous*

          I’m not the kind of person who would choose to work in a place with a strict dress code, but I’m also in a place professionally where I –can– be choosy. I certainly don’t want to work with anyone who smells and is dirty, though! Company Culture and fits and all that.

    5. Sophia Brooks*

      I am wondering if there is a situation with other staff in the ED not having the same freedom- I know that nurses where I work can have no visible body art, no visible piercings except ears, and natural colored hair. I think it is a little ridiculous, but 30 years ago they had to wear white dresses and caps, so an improvement.

      1. A. Nonymous*

        If they cracked down on the no visible tattoos on the ED staff then we wouldn’t HAVE an ED staff. I’m pretty sure that a good 60% or more of them have wrist, neck, or hand tattoos. So does every EMT and cop in the city too, feels like. It’s wild to see how much things have changed and how different they are from location to location.

        This wasn’t an emergency room employee who had the issue. She was a shift manager on an off-site location. Serves me right for helping her boss out with an equipment issue, she never would have seen me otherwise.

        1. Yet another Allison*

          So like, does this other manager not even see you on a regular basis? Because if I’m reading that correctly, that upped the WTF factor considerably. Talk about control issues: needing to control the appearance of someone she doesn’t even have to look at on a regular basis.

          No real advice to give, other than enlist your manager and maybe peers to push back along with you. And yuck on this person! Hopefully the powers that be will see how ridiculous she’s being.

          1. A. Nonymous*

            EXACTLY what I was thinking!! I’m going to probably rope in her boss or something on this if I get any pushback. The comments here sort of made me realize how weird the whole thing was.

        2. ginger ale for all*

          Maybe – just maybe, shoot her boss an e-mail saying that you wouldn’t feel comfortable helping her any more because this employee made you feel unwelcome and if the need ever arises again, she should ask someone else to help her out. Maybe.

    6. Student*

      Some people will always try to extend their power base, even when they have no actual authority to do so. This complaining manager sounds like one of those people. If your own manager has your back, which it sounds like he/she does, and you made a good-faith effort to figure out what you did owe this other manager – which you did, and went above and beyond to accommodate her – then you’re good and it’s okay to stop caring about complaining manager. Keep professional with her, direct her back to your manager for complaints, and otherwise ignore her. She wants power over you. Don’t give it to her.

  94. Awkward*

    I was talking to my co-worker about the weather, when I see my boss walking into his office. I made a comment related to the weather and as my boss passes us, he gave me the meanest look. I didn’t know what I said. My co-worker then told him what we were discussing and he seemed to relax.

    Why would he think that I was talking about him? He’s very defensive and paranoid- the guy thinks everyone is out to get him. Is there a way to deal with this?

    1. Dawn*

      “Is there a way to deal with this?”

      Not really. Paranoid people gonna paranoid no matter what you do. However if you’re up for expending the mental energy you could always greet him every time you see him and let him know what your group is talking about- “Hi Fergus, we were just talking about the beautiful weather today. Have you been outside yet?” or whatever. Cut him off at the paranoia pass!

      1. A. Nonymous*

        ^^^^ Yes, this. The letting him know is an excellent idea, he may get the picture eventually.

    2. Treena*

      Is this the first time he’s done this specifically? I don’t think I would jump to conclusions like that, but when you are talking about someone who walks up, the weather is a very, very common conversation changer!

  95. Laura*

    When I was a senior in college, I was photographed at a large college event without my consent. My image wound up on thousands of promotional materials which were sent to the public, for which I received no compensation. I value my privacy and would have preferred to control how my image was used, so this made me very uncomfortable.

    Today I opted out of professional headshots (scheduled for everyone in my department) because there was no waiver or information about how the photos would be used. Was this the right thing to do? I informed my director and he was very understanding, but I still feel weird about the situation in general.

    1. Manders*

      If it were me, I’d talk to the person organizing these headshots about what they’ll be used for and whether or not it’s possible to get that in writing. I’ve been on both sides of this, actually: I don’t really like having my picture taken, but I’ve also had a hard time getting people from other departments to participate in photo sessions when there was a legitimate need for those photos. I would have been happy to write up a document about what the photos would be used for if that would have put people at ease.

      1. Laura*

        Absolutely. My director noted my remarks about getting a waiver made up. The photographer couldn’t tell me anything about how the photos would be used, so I felt kind of helpless.

    2. ND*

      Consent is tricky in this sort of incidences.

      When I was in college, this happened to me multiple times. A photographer showed up at about 4 of my classes and took photos. I mostly kept a hat on or looked away, but I still ended up all over the college website and even a full-wall mural in campus cultural center.

      Of course, this didn’t really bother me, lol. Not the most flattering of photos, but it’s basically impossible to track those back to me.

      For this work situation, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with opting out. I’d look at you weirdly, but dismiss it and move on if were the director.

    3. CMT*

      A lot of universities have policies that by being there you allow your photograph to be taken and to be used for those kinds of promotional materials. I remember seeing signs up saying as much in various buildings at the school I went to.

      1. Lily Evans*

        Even if you’re just out in public you don’t have a right to stop your photo from being taken and used without your consent. There’s an interesting article about that on Buzzfeed here.

        1. Artemesia*

          The usual rule is that it can be used for artistic purposes or as part of news type articles but cannot be used for commercial purposes without consent. Most colleges have consent built into their orientation/registration process when these photos are used to promote the college.

    4. Laura*

      UPDATE

      The photos taken (which are lovely, by the way) will be used on all kinds of promotional material, including postcards, previews, and program guides. I’m very glad to have opted out, as those things aren’t within my scope of comfort whatsoever.

  96. Research Assistant*

    Any long-distance job search advice? I’m being laid off from my current job, which was doing academic research on soft money. I live in Florida, but I’ve been trying to find a job in Southern California (LA/OC) doing research/data analysis for several years. I can’t even seem to get interviews and my networking opportunities are pretty limited from across the country. I have a lot of friends in the area I’d like to live, but they’re all in completely different careers and industries from me, so they’re not much help in finding a job. I had a strong prospect a few months ago that randomly came up through my network, but it fell through. (The company didn’t have enough business to hire an additional person as they’d originally hoped to do.) The job I’m being laid off from didn’t pay well, so I can’t afford to move with no job. Does anyone have advice on how to get myself considered at all when I’m 3,000 miles away? Thanks to advice from this site I mention in all my cover letters that I’m very interested in moving to the area, but it’s still been two years since I’ve even gotten a phone screening.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        This can be tricky, though, because sometimes interviewers who see you have a local address will assume you are local and will say, “Great, can you come in tomorrow for an interview?” and then you have to explain you have to book a plane ticket… unless you just do for any interview on a moment’s notice—that can get expensive!

        1. Research Assistant*

          Yeah, that’s my worry. My friends have offered, and it might be doable if I was closer, but I’m so far away that travelling for an interview would be very expensive and time consuming. Because I was just laid off my current plan is to keep looking for jobs in my field for the rest of the summer. If I haven’t gotten anything by then I’m going to try to get a nanny job in CA that will at least let me move out there. I have a lot of experience with kids, and I think I’d have an easier time finding that kind of job just to pay the bills and help me afford the move. I won’t be able to put it on my resume because it’s irrelevant to my career, but I figure being seemingly-unemployed in the state where I’d like to live has to be better for my job prospects than being seemingly-unemployed on the opposite end of the country.

          I’ve been going through a protracted quarter-life crisis since I graduated from college 5 years ago and I really want to finally get my life together! I keep telling myself that it has to get better soon, but I’ve either been unemployed or underemployed this whole time, which is frustrating and demoralizing.

    2. CMT*

      There are quite a few letters in the archive on this topic that have been helpful to me! (Although I’m still doing the long-distance job search, ~1 year later . . . It does take a long time.)

  97. afiendishthingy*

    Anyone have any good stories about procrast,ination take to extreme lengths? I’m kicking myself today for how much I have left to do on a batch of my most tedious tasks, so I’m hoping for commiseration. I will take anecodotes of times procrastination paid off as well as when you royally screwed yourself!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Procrastination was a saving grace in my last job because often my boss would change her mind a bunch of times and forget to tell me, so if I started working on something the first time she mentioned it, I’d end up doing it four or five times while she got her idea straight!

      The time I most royally screwed myself with procrastination was when I needed to create a report for the CEO and the board. By the time I started it, it became clear that I needed WAY more input, and would never produce a good product in the time I had left myself. First couple of weeks of a new job. NOT fun to tell your new boss that, oh you know that really major report we’re trying to pull together? Yeah, no chance that’s going to happen SORRY. Ugh, it makes me want to throw up just thinking about it.

  98. Cordelia Drexel Biddle*

    I am job searching after 15+ years at the same place. I have had to wear many different hats and take care of a vast variety of things that I am overwhelmed at the prospect of writing my resume. I ran a small sized hotel, so I did everything that a larger staff would be assigned to. I am just not sure where to even start. Every time I start to write things down I am not sure what to put in, what not to put in, what’s best for the resume, what’s best for the cover letter. Anyone have any advice for how to try to stay organized?

    Part 2, I also had 3 different positions over the years and moved my way up (all in the same field. Think of supervisor, to assistant manager, to manager. Do I just list all three at the top then all the things I did underneath, or list each one as individual positions?

    1. Dawn*

      Last part first- I know Alison has had some great advice about how to write multiple jobs at the same employer so hunt around for those.

      As for writing a resume, I absolutely know the dread that comes with sitting down to write one! For me, it’s like a feeling of “OH MY GOD I HAVE TO GET THIS PERFECT AND IF I DON’T NO ONE WILL EVER HIRE MEEEE!!!” So, tell that voice to shut it! Start by sitting down and writing out a list of ALL of your accomplishments over the last 15 years, with way more emphasis on the stuff that’s happened in the last 4 years. Every accomplishment, no matter how small. Every job task. Every job duty.

      Once you’ve written them all out, take some time on polishing each one. So if you wrote down “Manned front desk every day” think about how that can be an accomplishment- did you frequently have super busy periods where you were a total rockstar and got customers through quickly and happily? Did you reorganize the front desk and implement a better way of (doing Thing)? Did you build a reputation of the person to go to when Something Had To Be Done? Ferret out those accomplishments! Write them allllll down!

      Now, edit your list. There’s going to be stuff that just isn’t a very strong accomplishment (like part of your job was to clean toilets and you can think of no way to make that sound better than “scrubbed toilets” and you’re pretty sure that skill will never come up in a job search.) Cross those out. Then separate what’s left into Strong, Medium, and Weak accomplishments.

      When you find a job you want to apply for, pull up this Master List of Accomplishments and find ones that specifically speak to what the job posting is asking for. So if the job posting includes “Excellent customer service skills a MUST” pull out a couple of really strong customer service accomplishments and slap them on there (and potentially re-write them a little bit so they’re reflecting the job posting’s wording.) Ditto for as many bullet points on the job posting as possible. If doing that gets your resume the length it should be, great! If not, then add in some other accomplishments that reflect super positively on you but that might not meet any of the job posting’s requirements (I’d say anything that showed leadership, initiative, or strong trust by management). If you need to, slap some of the medium accomplishments on there to pad out length (but try to make sure they’re at least tangentially related to the job posting). If you absolutely have to, you can put 1-2 weak accomplishments on there if they’re *directly* related to something on the job posting.

      Rinse and repeat for every job posting.

      1. Cordelia Drexel Biddle*

        Thank you! I guess part of me feels like a humble/brag because in all that time, almost everything that is a procedure there has had my hand in implementing it. I guess I just don’t want to sound like someone who is arrogant or something. I think that is adding to some of the anxiety.

        1. Dawn*

          OK so I TOTALLY get that, totally! We are conditioned our whole lives to not brag and it can be so hard when we’re tasked with sitting down and making what is pretty much a marketing document for ourselves!

          However, when those feelings come up, just remind yourself that you are not BRAGGING, you are stating FACTS. Bragging would be “Yeah, I totally came up with just about every policy around this place *heh* it’d fall apart if I ever left *heh heh* my bosses just think I’m so amazing *heh*” What you are doing in your resume is stating FACTS that are answering the question of “Please tell us why you think you’re a good candidate for Job You’re Applying For.” Not bragging, but answering that question with FACTS!

          And really, that’s what hiring managers want- facts of why you’d be good for the job in question. So, dazzle with facts! If you came up with every policy they had and can prove it if needed, tell them that! ‘Cause it’s a FACT!

  99. Is there a PA in the house?*

    My husband just graduated Physician Assistant school from a well-regarded program and has been lucky enough to get some interest from employers. Two hospitals recently said they would like to hire him after he passes the boards. One of which said “this is a verbal offer”. They both gave him info on pay and benefits. But I’m confused as to if these are real offers. He takes the boards at the end of July and should find out if he passed a couple weeks after that. But in the meantime, does he stop job hunting because these places gave him a tentative offer? I’m in the business world so I’m not used to this.
    The “verbal offer” place even said they don’t give written offers because they’ve been “burned before” when people didn’t pass their boards on time and they were stuck waiting another month, but wouldn’t that be the case whether it’s written or verbal? Unless it’s not a real offer. What’s to stop either of these places from filling all their spots in the next month. I don’t think anyone is trying to screw him over but I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t just have legal draft up an offer contingent upon passing the boards by X date. These places seem disorganized and outdated (one of them said he had to fill out two copies of the same paperwork because two departments need originals ?) so that could be part of it.
    Anyone have experience with this? Is there anything to do at this point besides study for his boards?

    1. LJ*

      Would they write him an offer letter with a contingency of passing the boards? I’m a field that requires board certification, but the exams are only held twice per year, and not usually about 4 months after graduation. I’ve seen offer letters stating that if the hire doesn’t pass the board in the 1st year, he/she would be let go.

      Otherwise, he should keep looking. They may well fill the spot before then. They can’t take the chance that he won’t pass and stop looking for a month to wait.

  100. Daisy Dukes*

    I previously posted about guilt over job searching because I work on a small team (team of 2). Well…teammate gave notice 3 weeks ago! I’m the only one here and miserable.

    I’m feeling the guilt even more because I’d leave the team with no one but I know that I need to do what’s best for my happiness. Any way to reconcile this?

    1. Dawn*

      “Any way to reconcile this?”

      Every time you start to feel guilty, think very loudly to yourself: “NO! THIS IS WHAT IS BEST FOR MY HAPPINESS!” Repeat as needed :)

      1. Daisy Dukes*

        Thanks so much! You always have really helpful replies :)

        I’m also worried about moving from this toxic environment (devil I know) to the possibility of starting a new job and it’s even worse (devil I don’t know).

        How do I avoid this since there’s so much unknown?

        1. Dawn*

          I mean…. it might suck, and then you move on. Suckiness happens in life. You can’t plan for it, and if you start living your life around “oh god what if what I choose sucks EVEN MORE” then you won’t ever do anything. (I know this for a fact, it’s an anxiety I’ve struggled with my whole damn life!)

          But when those “But what if it’s WORSE” thoughts creep in, turn right around and go “OK SO WHAT IF IT’S F’IN BETTER! HUH! WHAT THEN! WHAT DOES BETTER LOOK LIKE!?!” And think really really hard about what better looks like, and daydream *really hard* about what having a better job would BE like. Immerse yourself in that daydream. Imagine what it’d be like waking in up the morning to go to a job where [the awesome things you want in a job] happen all the time. How would your life change? How would YOU change? It’s so easy to get caught up in imagining and dwelling on the worst case scenario that we frequently forget to think about the BEST case scenario. And if you find yourself thinking of the worst case scenario, drown it in facts: OK NBD you’ll move on to somewhere else. OK NBD you’ve had a bad job before, it won’t kill you. OK NBD, sometimes bad things happen. OK NBD, there’s other jobs.

          BLIND THAT ANXIETY WITH LOGIC!!!

          1. Daisy Dukes*

            I really have to say a heartfelt thank you for this response. It’s so easy for me to get stuck in my own head and worry but you are SO right. I deserve to be in a situation that I’m happy in and look forward to!!

            Thank you again :)

          2. zora.dee*

            Thank you from me too! I’m getting lots of anxiety around my job/job search as well, and this is just what I needed to hear. I am saving this on my phone so I can read it all the time.

            BLIND THAT ANXIETY WITH LOGIC!! ;o)

    2. A. Nonymous*

      I say this to everyone, you’re not working as a favor. You’re working because you do an expected job and receive expected treatment and compensation. You don’t owe them any more than that and maybe if they see they’ve driven away TWO employees in short order they’ll adjust how they do things.

      1. Daisy Dukes*

        You are so right! Regarding your last sentence: ah how I wish! They have a “well they just couldn’t handle it” approach to anyone that leaves.

        1. Dawn*

          “Oh my god Daisy Dukes, you mean you couldn’t handle a totally toxic workplace? I mean, we can all handle it! We are addicted to Xanax and drink a bottle of wine every night and our hair is falling out and we haven’t had a sit-down meal with our family in five years but oh my god Daisy Dukes! You mean you don’t want to live this fabulous life we’re living”

          To which you say “Aw hellll to the no I don’t!” as you sashay away.

            1. Dawn*

              I mean shit… you’re already Daisy Dukes… those things were MADE for the sashay!

              1. Dawn*

                Also if you need some music to remind you of how great you really are and how good it’s gonna feel when you do sashay away, go listen to Glamazon by Ru Paul. It’s my GET PUMPED UPPPPP music :)

                2. Daisy Dukes*

                  Adding these to my itunes now! Your responses are everything I needed right now!!

  101. Adjunct Gal*

    Has anyone tried TopResume? They gave me a free consult on mine, and while I don’t disagree with the advice, I’m not sure whether I should have them help me further or just go it alone.

      1. ND*

        Wow, looks expensive. Paasssssss. I’ve spent enough time on this site to think I’ve got a good handle of useful resume aspects.

        Depends on how familiar you are with resumes, I suppose.

        1. Adjunct Gal*

          Fair enough. I can edit others without an issue, but my own is tougher, iykwim. I’m trying to figure out why I’m still not getting anywhere, and I figured the resume is probably it.

  102. Temp to be?*

    Anyone have experience temping for the medium to long term?

    Due to family reasons, I will be relocating. Plan A is (was?) to look for a full-time job, but I’m sort of at a crossroads in my career so the idea of taking a class or two and rethinking things while temping sounds appealing. That said, I have never temped to I’m not sure what the economics of it are. I realize pay would vary by area, but in a big city, how many hours a week could one expect to get? I have savings in case of fluctuations, but I’m trying to figure out if this will make sense for me.

    1. zora.dee*

      I’ve temped in a few different major cities, and I usually consistently get medium-long term gigs, like 1 month to 6 months at a time full-time. The pay definitely varies depending on your skills and experience, but I’m making really good money right now temping for a small PR firm, like it’ll come out to about 65K (pre-taxes).

      The downside is the lack of benefits, so it is costing me money in the long term, but that’s invisible in the short term. I can definitely pay my bills and even save up a bit. It’s not a forever solution ,but it’s good for a few years at a time.

      And, if you’re not getting enough hours from one agency, sign up with some others. If you are good and get sh*t done, a good agency will want to keep you working steadily because it makes them look good. Good luck!

  103. Raia*

    I’m at a complete loss. My mother, who has been the primary bread winner in my family for over 25 years, announced that she is quitting her job. She is 62. They’re keeping her until they find her replacement, then she’s done. The reason she is leaving is because she doesn’t have a good handle on technology, and wants to do nothing with even simple things like emails.

    So… what kind of entry-level jobs are even available for an almost retiree that doesn’t want to use computers? Dish washing?

    1. Kristinemc*

      She could be a part-time greeter or funeral attendant at a funeral home when they have services. They use part time people, many of them older, and there may be no requirement for email, etc, for that.

    2. Caledonia*

      some kind of retail work? although she’d have to use a till. Or somewhere like a Walmart, I guess or Costco. There is a large retailer in the UK called B&Q (it’s a DIY warehouse store) that employs older people.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      Substitute teaching. Our district alerts people to assignments by phone/text if they choose. She would have to apply online but not much computer work after that.

      1. Science Teacher*

        No– many substitutes would need to know how to use computers (both Macs & PCs) because many teachers will leave movies that can only be streamed/ played on a computer and hooked up to a projector through cables.
        Also, susbstitute teaching is not for the faint of heart.

    5. SophieChotek*

      Is she good at organization? Some businesses are professional organizers/movers (not the heavy lifting type)…my mom is retired and does that, and she has a bad back, but I guess can stand long enough to do packing/organization and she seems to enjoy it.

      Does your mother want to work? Part time? Does she have to continue to support family?
      Honestly, I can think of very few jobs nowadays that don’t require some computer-usage — even most retailers have some sort of low-tech computer screens for cashiers, etc.

      Otherwise, yes, greeter/attendent might be a possibility–though I know for some of those touristy-type places (i.e.museums) it might be all volunteer.

    6. ginger ale for all*

      At one of my part time jobs, I am usually the only non-retiree there. I help out for special events like graduations, games, conferences at a large university coliseum. I can sometimes sell tickets, direct people to where they need to go, or just be an extra set of eyes.

    7. Observer*

      What kind of relationship do you have with your parents? Is it possible that there is something else going on here, that she’s hiding / you might be missing?

      She’s not an entitled brat who doesn’t want to do anything she doesn’t want to do. She’s someone who’s been in the workforce for 25, doing well enough that her employer is keeping her on till they find a replacement. So, this sounds like it’s out of character enough that I really wonder if there is something else going on.

    8. Raia*

      She’s an interpreter, so maybe a place where she can interpret but doesn’t require a lot of formal scheduling, appointments, or documentation? She doesn’t even want to interpret anymore, even though that is by far her most marketable skill. She was thinking of being a greeter at a grocery store, but that’s her only idea.

      There’s mortgage payments and car payments and expensive meds for my dad that make her unable to really retire. I hope there isn’t a health related thing that set this off. I’m the youngest, so I feel that they don’t want me to know how bad things really are…

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        If she is ok with some manual work, she could do other areas of the grocery store (they don’t all have greeters, so that may open up her options). I used to work in the grocery store and there were no computers outside of the registers and occasionally using a computer scale. The departments that had the lightest physical labor had the most use of technology but it’s very common for people to switch around to different departments, or even work in multiple.

  104. Reporting Analyst*

    So, about six weeks ago I moved from the Teapot Operations department to Beverage Container Reporting/Analysis for the same company. Since I’d been doing reporting/analysis work for Teapot Ops, and was the only person in that department with much experience in that, they would need to start requesting more assistance from my new department. Which is fine.

    Prior to the transition date, I asked for a meeting with my new manager, old supervisor, and old team lead to discuss what work would be moving with me and how much of my time would be taken up by fulfilling requests for them and training others on doing this work. I also wanted to head off some comments I’d heard my team lead make regarding asking me for help when they have questions about Teapot Spout Compliance, a position I held with them from 2011-2014. I wanted to be done being their ‘expert’ in this area- basically a go-to reference for the next person in that position (who I had already trained), when other resources or our team lead would be more appropriate.

    My old department has since been very good in the transition. Minimal questions, and the work that came with me has been wrapped up pretty quickly. However, for these six weeks, any time my old supervisor comes near my new department, my new manager has joked to her about how she’s not allowed to talk to me and that she shouldn’t even know where I am. I’m sure it’s well-meaning, but I can’t help feeling like I’m being made fun of for the concerns I had before moving.

    Was it weird of me to ask for guidelines on requests coming from my old department? And how long should I let these jokes go silently before saying something to my new manager?

    1. Treena*

      In general, no it’s not weird to ask for guidelines. It helps to ward off your old co-workers infringing on your time too much when you’re adjusting to a new position.

      I think any weirdness might have come from your tone or earnestness about getting concrete guidelines, but even with what you’ve written here, I’m not convinced it was interpreted as weird. I would participate with a big smile and poke some fun at yourself a few times and see how that works.

      1. Reporting Analyst*

        Thank you! I’m probably taking myself a bit too seriously. I’ll work on relaxing about it, especially since I just found out that new manager is letting us all leave early today!

    2. DoDah*

      Not weird at all. At OldJob I was asked to remain in a transitional phase between roles for six (!) months. After one year (!!) I went to new VP and asked for his support in not performing old role. He wasted no time in going to my old boss and telling her she needed to take this role back completely. She cried (literally). Luckily–he didn’t care and I was relieved of old role within two weeks.

      Lesson: Speak up!

      You did the right thing.

  105. Former Border's Refugee*

    So I’m an attorney, but like so many who graduated in the past several years, getting a legal job is… difficult. WHen I apply to non-legal jobs (that I am legitimately interested in!), I don’t get any response, and I strongly suspect that my legal credentials are part of the problem. I haven’t taken them off at this point though, because that puts a 3 year hole in my work history.

    Thoughts? Advice? Should I pull them off, and how do I address that gap?

    1. Treena*

      Do you have any experience post-law school? If you do, I would take it off. It gets tricky if you literally just graduated or haven’t worked since prior to law school, but honestly, it’s just throwing you at the other end of the spectrum (they think you’re desperate for a job vs. them thinking you’re too good for the job)

      Maybe a line in your cover letter about taking some time for personal development? I’m not sure about that one, so take it with a grain of salt!

      1. Former Border's Refugee*

        I do (I graduated in 2012), and most of it didn’t require a bar license.

        I just want something stable and with benefits! Paid holidays would be really nice- they’re KILLER when you’re a contract employee.

    2. higheredrefugee*

      It also depends on what you mean by credentials. For some jobs, the answer is to leave it off entirely, especially if you don’t have a cover letter opportunity to explain it. For others, the answer is to leave law school on but remove the honors and activities that aren’t relevant or understood in the industry in which you are applying.

      But really, you need to get out and network so you can identify employers that are of interest to you and build some cheerleaders that are willing to call the hiring manager after you submit a resume. Start small with informational interviews with fellow (more senior) law alumni that are working in non-legal positions and seek their advice about breaking into their industries/companies.

  106. Applesauced*

    Work computer desktop backgrounds – currently I have one of the Windows defaults cycling through, but I have some *super cute* professional photos of my dog (a friend-of-a-friend is a pet photographer, I didn’t commission a portrait sitting for my dog) and I’m tempted to make him my desktop background, but it seems unprofessional/immature. What do you think?
    And in general, what’s your work wallpaper?

    1. legalchef*

      I have a picture of my husband and me, but my computer isn’t visible by people walking past (and even if it was, the desktop would rarely be in view anyway).

    2. bb-great*

      Plenty of people I’ve worked with have had pictures of pets/kids as desktop wallpaper. It’s not any different than having framed photos on your desk imo.

      My background is just the generic solid blue one…hm…maybe I should change it.

    3. legalchef*

      Oh, and I think that unless your office is really stodgy/uptight, it would be fine. What do others have as their backgrounds?

    4. animaniactoo*

      This probably doesn’t help you but I’m in an art dept, I have 2 monitors and each of them rotate every 30 minutes through a variety of photography and CG art, along with a few comics thrown in. One of them is a modification on the cover for The Lorax. Another is a Dilbert “Must. Control. Fist. Of Death.”, a few of them are my own CG works. I’m low on the photography side and high on the CG/Fractal/Comic side in the mix. Right now one monitor is displaying a Blue Fairy Queen scene, and the other is a bunch of overlapping silver orbs floating in and above the the sea/sunset skyline.

    5. Treena*

      Dogs are fine–go for it! Mine is a beach in my home country. People ask about it and it’s perfect chit chat.

    6. Not Karen*

      Everyone in my office has kids and/or pets on their desktop background. I’ve been meaning to pick out a good picture of my cats, but haven’t gotten around to it yet… (Also, they are hardly ever in the same picture.)

    7. Dawn*

      I have a picture of the screaming sun from Rick and Morty rising over a nature landscape so… I think a nice picture of your dog is FINE :)

      1. GigglyPuff*

        I totally have the Lifetime (or Hallmark) channel parody called “Grumpy Cat’s Worst Christmas Ever” on my account on one of the computers I have access to at work. Everyone loves it!

    9. LCL*

      Usually a photo of my dog, or one of my sister’s dogs. Or a cool photo I grabbed from the news about dogs-my current background is a news photo of a dog in the cab of a semi that crashed because the driver left it running to go into a Quickie mart and the dog bumped it into gear and crashed.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      Mine is a picture of the TARDIS against a dark blue space background full of stars, with a wibbly-wobbly repeated effect at the light and the bottom like it’s swooping. I like it because it’s easy on my eyes and super nerdy.

    12. ND*

      Ha! Seems fine/normal to me.

      I currently have lovely scenic photos with text on top. The text includes these phrases:
      “I know what things are.”
      “The worst thing about prison was the dementors.”
      “It’s never too early for ice cream.”
      “I’m sorry, I can’t hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.”
      “I’m fine. It’s just that life is pointless and nothing matters and I’m always tired.”

    14. Observer*

      I have a few general rules:

      Nothing overtly religious to a casual viewer (outside of the appropriate environments)
      Nothing overtly political (same caveat)
      “Safe for work”
      Personal is ok, as long as it’s not intimate.

      As long as it meets those criteria, as far as I’m concerned it’s “professional”

      One suggestion – make sure it’s something that won’t make it harder to pick stuff on your screen.

    16. KR*

      When I make software tutorials I use screenshots of my own laptop… where my dog is my background and my cat is my user picture. It’s not professional but it makes you happy and that’s okay.

    17. Lindsay J*

      My current job doesn’t allow us to change the background. It’s the company logo on a black background,

      Last job most people had spouses, kids, pets, etc. I had a promo image of one of the aircraft types we worked on.

    18. Clever Name*

      I think pets are great desktop wallpaper. I don’t think it’s unprofessional at all.

      Right now my desktop background is a photo of a project site with train tracks and mountains in the background. Before that it was: a photo of space, a Prince/Bob Ross mashup (happened to be my background when Prince died, so I got a lot of condolences), Prince’s passport photo. When I was really pissed off about something at work, it was a drawing of a unicorn pooping a rainbow. I drew a muffin in paint and that was my background for a while. So, you can see that my backgrounds aren’t all super buttoned-up and professional, but I’ve been at my job for years and have a fairly high-level position in my company and I’m known as someone who is trusted and reliable and who gets things done. So if you’re just starting out in your career or at your company, I’d wait before I pulled out the Neko Atsume wallpaper. ;)

  107. Phideaux*

    I wanted to get the thoughts of sales or purchasing/procurement professionals. I am the Purchasing Manager at a company that while it isn’t a household name by any means, within our industry we are pretty well known. Because of this I get a lot of unsolicited sales calls and emails. As a rule I don’t respond to these unless it really intrigues me, which they usually don’t. I simply don’t have the time to do it. I have many such caller that will repeatedly send emails or leave voice mails asking me to call them back. I figure that by not responding, they have my answer. Most of them get it, but I get a few of them who get quite hostile that I don’t call them back. Their response is along the lines of, “I’m taking the time to try to contact you, the least you can do is call me back.”

    Mind you, if it’s someone I’ve reached out to or if I know that they are in tight with a close contact I will reply, but if it’s just one of 2 dozen people selling the same thing, then I don’t reply. Am I out of line here, or do I owe them a response? I look at it like if I were to see a commercial on TV, I don’t contact the company to tell them I’m not interested. I realize they’re doing their job, but I could spend several hours a week listening to sales pitches for something I’m never going to purchase.

    1. animaniactoo*

      You don’t owe them a response. They’re cold-calling, not getting a response has to be an expected outcome on their part.

    2. Laura*

      You’re not required to respond, but if you want certain companies to stop calling, you need to inform them that you want to be on the do-not-call list.

    3. ND*

      I’m surprised at their attitude. Maybe it’s a different norm for you industry? I’m in media and constantly have people throwing their press releases at me. If someone is really persistent, I occasionally respond with why I’m not using their release. I also respond to regulars who send me great releases, and those who are very well-known or connected.

      Everyone else I just delete. I don’t have time to respond to the hundreds of email I get every day.

    4. Observer*

      You don’t owe them a response.

      If you are the list keeping type, make a list of the hostile ones, and make sure to NOT use them when you need a product of the type they sell, because these types always turn out to be a pain, in my experience.

  108. Treena*

    Recommendations for how to improve tact in the workplace? I’m thinking books, but open to anything if it’s helped someone in the past!

    This is a request on behalf of my husband (he actually asked me to post!). He’s been with his company for nearly 5 years, and a couple of years ago, the owners wanted to know if he was interested in a management role. He said no to being a formal manager and took on a mentorship/team lead role. He’s now genuinely interested in management because he’s had two good experiences “mini-managing” two staff members and he enjoys it.

    He’s going to talk with his supervisor to let him know he’s changed his mind and wants some direction on how to get there. But from previous feedback, he already knows he needs to work on his tact. He’s really nice and will explain if he thinks your idea is wrong, but gets testy when you argue with him insisting your idea is right (when he’s the project lead, senior staff, + overall team lead and you’re junior staff here for 6 months). He never gets upset or angry or anything like that, just uses really biting language about what he really thinks. Obviously some of this will be improved with more authority, but people will always argue and he needs to work on his tact now to demonstrate that he’s working on this proactively.

    1. Dawn*

      “How to Win Friends and Influence People”- read it, and then practice it every day. That book is MAGIC!

      1. higheredrefugee*

        He should also tell his supervisor of his efforts to work on this deficiency when he has the conversation. I would also suggest “Hardwiring Happiness: The New Brain Science of Contentment, Calm, and Confidence” to help identify when those situations seem to really irritate him and develop coping skills both before, during, and after the confrontations that trigger his biting commentary.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Do the words just fly right out of his mouth? You could tell him that he should try to pause before he speaks. Even a short, almost indiscernible pause can allow a person to skip their first choice of words and move to their second and improved choice of words.

  109. Hmm... is it too late?*

    In April I had an informational interview with a woman in a field I’m sort of considering entering. She told me that she’d ask some colleagues she that she knows in different organizations if they’d be interested in chatting with me. I know that she’s quite busy with her position and, honestly, my personal life got pretty busy. Something really unexpected happened and I wasn’t in the position to focus on my “future” career. Things are a bit more settled now, but… it’s July. Is it too late to email her back and ask if she ever got around to ask her colleagues (or just to remind her?). I feel stupid for forgetting about this and waiting so long, but it’s too late now. If I missed an opportunity, I missed an opportunity, I guess.

    1. ND*

      If you haven’t immediately following, you could send a following up thanking her for meeting with you. That would put you back in her mind and, if she has the time, prompt her to ask around for you.

      1. Hmm... is it too late?*

        I sent her a follow up thank you email shortly after meeting with her and in the email she mentioned that she’d ask around, but I haven’t heard anything back since April. So, I’m not sure if it would be too pushy or rude of me to send her another email asking if she ever got ahold of anyone. I don’t want to be too imposing. I do have a feeling, though that she probably just forgot about it, which isn’t a big deal.

        1. higheredrefugee*

          I think you can drop an email that apologizes that you haven’t been in touch due to dealing with a personal issue (no details) but wanted to see if she has any insight on a company or position that you are targeting. (So yes, you have to have a company or position that interests you). That should be a trigger to remind her that you are still looking without asking specifically if she’s still keeping an eye out for you.

          1. Hmm... is it too late?*

            That’s a good idea.

            Although, right now I’m not looking for a job. I’m trying to decide if I should go deeper into my current field and get a masters degree in a specific area. You 100% need a masters degree to go further in my field. I can’t decide if this is something I truly want to do and I really want to have a good idea of the opportunities that exist within the field for me, if I do decide to pursue it. The lady I had the informational interview with works in a more unconventional area of the field (that’s probably bound to grow in the future), so I’m really curious about learning what exists off of the beaten track in this field… and how people end up getting there! Oh my, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to go on and on, lol. But I think what you suggested is a good idea, apologize for losing touch, etc.

  110. NicoleK*

    I’ve been in my current job for 6 months. I was not looking or planning to move on (time in previous jobs were 18 months and 20 months prior to this job so I’m very aware that I need to stay put for a while). However, someone in my network encouraged me to apply for a job at her company. It would definitely be a great opportunity for me (good company and a great pay increase). This is the first time anyone has EVER actively reached out to me and strongly encouraged me to apply for a position in their company. I’m also a firm believer that when opportunities present themselves, I should pursue it. And in my life, I haven’t had many opportunities like this presented to me.

    I’m looking for verbiage on how I can address the fact I’m applying for a new position 6 months into my current job. Posters here are excellent at phrasing things.

    TIA!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion but you could bank off of what you have here. “After having two short stays with previous employers, I planned on staying at this Current Job. Jane encouraged me to apply here and for me this represents an extraordinary opportunity. So yes, I have been at current job for only 6 months and if it had not been for this extraordinary opportunity here, I would not be applying for jobs at all.”

  111. Lo*

    I’ve generally found camp to be a place of unprofessional situations and coworkers but overall good experiences, save one summer of religious camp where I wasn’t that religion (and the worst boss I’ve ever had).

    I’m an office manager, I also handle nurse duties and behavioral issues and generally triage issues. My coworker, who I’d thought until yesterday was my supervisor, is a particular brand of inappropriate. He is OBSESSED with making gendered jokes and assumptions, from “only girls cry, stop crying” (said to male child) to showing me a ‘funny picture’ with a joke about why men aren’t sluts if they have a lot of sex but women are. He knows these things are inappropriate but consistently pins in on my sense of humor being wrong, or the fact that I’m female and thus don’t get it.

    This issue came to a head–he showed me an inappropriate meme joke about sex, and I was like “ok” and then he showed it to one of our counselors, his subordinates. I quickly shut that down, he was not happy I did, saying “we’re friends we’ve worked together before, we have that kind of relationship” and I spent an ungdly amount of time explaining to him why THAT DOESN’T MATTER. It’s inappropriate, we’re around kids, if other counselors hear you doing this they won’t trust you and your orders to handle situations (that’s my biggest one).

    What do I do to keep the peace and make him stop talking about this stuff? Other than the stare blankly or the simple “wow,” both of which I’m doing.

    Also, any fun camp employee stories? Would love to hear them.

    1. Laura*

      It sounds like he’s taking it way too far and not getting the hints. Can you talk to a supervisor about this? It’s especially inappropriate because you work around children.

      1. Lo*

        Yes, my supervisor is out of the office today through next friday and I am documenting issues so that I can update her fully. She seems supportive but her recourse is limited as this is a temporary job. But yes, I agree.

        1. Joanna*

          Even if it’s a temporary job, they can at least blacklist him from being hired at the organisation again and decline to give him a reference

    2. Joanna*

      Escalate this to a more senior manager and/or HR. There are so many ways this could end very badly. I’m not sure what the rules would be where you are, but I’m pretty sure forcing someone to view/listen to sexual material they didn’t want to in the workplace counts as sexual harassment here. Your company also has a gender discrimination lawsuit risk if anyone felt they were being denied opportunities by this guy because of their gender. If a kid ever heard some of what he was saying and repeated it to their parents things could get truly ugly.

  112. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I mentioned this on the comments to yesterday afternoon’s post but want to put it here to make sure more people see it: That post from earlier in the week about the interns who got fired for petitioning for changes to the dress code has gone viral all over the internet. As a result, that post started drawing really awful, hostile comments. If you were seeing them coming in and wondering what the hell was going on, that’s the answer — totally new readers/commenters doing drive-by commenting. (The wonderful Laura Moore immediately whipped up a way for me to turn on moderation for all comments on a single post, so that’s been really helpful.)

    Luckily, it seems to have been confined to that post, but I wanted to mention it in case anyone was full of dread about the imminent destruction of our commenting standards. That’s not happening — it’s just one viral post causing the issue.

    1. LTR*

      And this is why I’ll always be a reader of the comments. Every aspect of this site is managed incredibly well.

      1. Megs*

        Indeed. And while I’m glad you’re getting eyeballs, I’m sorry that people are being awful.

    2. Dawn*

      Congrats on going viral I suppose! And THANK YOU SO MUCH for fostering such a great place to be a commenter :) This is my favorite cozy corner of the internet, and I love y’all so much!

      2. Anxa*

        Honestly. AAM and the commenters have been so generous with their time and insight. It hasn’t done much to actually improve my job search (because I think a large part of my problem is me as a product and not the presentation), but it really has become one of my favorite places of the internet.

      3. Sadsack*

        The article that referenced the AAM blog was extremely unkind to the letter writer and college students in general. I was kind of shocked when I saw it.

    3. Faith*

      I saw the link to that post on Reddit (in r/facepalm), and my immediate thought was: “Well, there goes the troll brigade”. Turns out, I was correct.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      I noticed the comment count on that one. I guess that explains it. Is that your most commented on article here?

    5. Lily Evans*

      Since a lot of comment threads have been getting long lately, have you considered adding a “back to top” arrow button? A few times this week I’ve gotten really far into the comments section and looked for that button as if this was Buzzfeed or tumblr :) (Also, I didn’t know whether this would count as a tech issue for your form, since it’s more of an idea).

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        There actually is one at the very bottom righthand corner of the site! Or do you mean one that you wouldn’t have to scroll all the way down to use?

        1. Lily Evans*

          I meant one that you wouldn’t have to scroll for. On other sites there’ll be an arrow to the side (usually in the upper right corner) that just floats with you as you scroll down and you can click it to go straight back to the top. I’ve reflexively tried to click this nonexistent button on several comment threads this week (which really just says a lot about how much time I spend online)

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Ah! Weirdly, I just asked Laura a week or two ago about creating something similar for expanding/collapsing comments so it’s not just at the top. I’ll mention this to her too.

  113. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I gave notice today!!!
    Clearance came through barely on time, and newfolks wanted me to start July 6th. However, I had to give requisite notice, which meant starting a week after that around July 14th.

    Would the newfolks mind that I’m pushing my start date a bit? I want to end on a positive note…..

    1. Dawn*

      Most likely not. Alison’s dealt with similar situations a ton of times! I think the general consensus is to go to the new folks, say that because you have to give requisite notice your earliest start date would be July 14th and you hope they understand, and they’ll probably be like “OK cool beans see you then!”

  114. KR*

    My boss bought a year of unlimited tech classes for the next year with the expectation that I would test for two common certifications (on my own dime) this year. He mentioned how his deal with his boss was that he does 2 hours a week during business hours and 2 hours at home on his time with the implication that he wanted me to do that too. He’s exempt, makes more than twice what I make and is full time whereas I’m part time and have 2 part time jobs and no benefits. I brought up how he had more time in his week and how 2 hours on the clock made sense for me but I was leery of committing to do something for work off the clock on my own time, which is very limited. (Though I realize this is a good training program and will probably do it on my own time, I just can’t commit to having 2 spare hours a week every week). He agreed and saw what I meant and agreed but I’m wondering if I was in the right or if this is common in tech?

    1. LiteralGirl*

      I would think that if it’s a job expectation, you need to be paid for the time as a non-exempt employee. The certifications, too, seem like something the company should be paying for if your company is asking that you do them (and they weren’t part of an understanding prior to you getting the position).

      1. KR*

        It’s town government so I doubt they’ll pay for it, and they’re typically certifications someone doing my job would already have. I’ll keep that in mind though when it comes time to actually take the class – maybe they will actually cover them.

  115. Toxic Workplace*

    Any suggestions or tips for surviving a toxic workplace? I have been job hunting for two months and have had some interviews, but no luck so far. My duties have been reduced and I have a feeling my manager is trying to push me out and outright hire me. Apparently, that is her strategy when she wants to get rid of someone. As far as I know I have had no performance issues and patients (I work in a clinic) like me. And I just can’t anymore. She just passed a new policy that I find ethically wrong and it falls on me to carry it out. At this point I am surviving; although, I want to quit with no notice. I already have two references, but have been at my job for seven months which is why I have been trying to make it work, but I think I have reached my limits.

    1. Biff*

      If you have what appears to be a medical ethics issue, then you might need to speak to your HR/legal representative. You really can’t be violating regulations to suit her mood.

      1. Toxic Workplace*

        Unfortunately, she is HR/Director. The clinic is very small and her new policy creates a barrier for a certain population to get access to our services. When I brought it up, she shrugged. The only other person who would be able to do something is her boss who lives out of state.

        2. AF*

          It’s possible that the state medical board has a hotline for anonymous help. Is it a for-profit or a non-profit clinic? I’m wondering if there’s some kind of board of directors, or owner, or someone who isn’t necessarily her boss, but who has legal or regulatory authority over her and the practice.
          Here’s a list of all of the state medical boards. Good luck!
          http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/becoming-physician/medical-licensure/state-medical-boards.page

        3. AF*

          Contact the state medical board to find out how ethically wrong it is – here’s a list: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/becoming-physician/medical-licensure/state-medical-boards.page. They should have an ethics hotline where you can check on the legality/ethics of what she’s doing.

          Has your decrease in duties come as a result of discussing the policy that you disagree with? Even though her boss is out of state, it may be worth it to contact that person also. Unless she’s the owner, there must be someone (owner, board of directors, Medical Director at the clinic) who isn’t her direct boss, but who has some sort of authority to step in.

          1. Toxic Workplace*

            Thanks! I actually drafted an email to her boss, which I am planning to send when I quit as a heads up. And yeah, my duties were reduced thanks to this policy that she swears the clinic has always had. Other staff members that know are baffled about this policy. In the meantime, I just need to get through day by day and would really like to know what strategies I can use to get by. I just have that horrible feeling that she is using this policy as a way to write me up and fire me. Apparently, she has a history of doing this and I have been warned to watch my back.

            Right now, I am stressed and I have cried and I just want to walk in her office and just quit, but I am afraid to do so because I do not have anything lined up and the majority of my savings have been used to help my parents. My mom advised me to quit and that we would figure out how to pay off my car payments while I look for another job. But, I have no idea what I would say why I left my current position if it takes me months to find another.

            1. AF*

              I’m sorry that I posted 2 similar comments twice. And I never actually offered advice for your initial question. I think the only thing you can do is find ways to take care of yourself during the day. If you are allowed to listen to music, do that. Or take a walk outside at lunch. And if you aren’t already proactively job-hunting, do that now! That will at least give you some feeling of control over the situation.

              For the actual work environment, I think I’m just wondering what you can do to change the situation, but it sounds like you don’t have the energy or desire to do that, which is totally understandable. Do she and her boss have a good rapport? I’m wondering if her boss doesn’t know this is going on (if she has a pattern of getting rid of people). And I’m going to assume you were never actually given an employee handbook or previously notified about this policy when you started? It’s difficult when you are new to a job, because you don’t have much standing to just go straight over her head and talk to her boss now. If I was her boss, and she’s fired several people over these “policies,” I’d be wondering why she doesn’t alert people about the policy, or why she fires so many people. I am so sorry you are going through this.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              You say, “I was asked to do something unethical. I saw that I could not change that situation. I felt I had no choice but to leave.”

              While it is not the only reason you are leaving, it’s a darn good one that GOOD people totally understand.

  116. LiteralGirl*

    So I’m finishing up my first week in my new position. Everyone in my group is working from home today, so I was encouraged to, as well. I feel a bit lost because there doesn’t seem to be a training plan; there was one hour of “onboarding” which showed me a couple of things, and I’ve got work to do (yay!) but I don’t really know which tools I should be using or even if I have the correct access. I’ve set up a meeting for Tuesday with my “mentor”, but fear that will be woefully inadequate. Sigh.
    On a positive note, though, my coworkers are amazing and I’m really happy to be working in the new department!

  117. SophieChotek*

    Curious to know other AAM Community members thoughts on the situation from “Dear Amy” re: new coworkers actively being snubbed (?) by the longer-term workers

    Link to follow.

    2. Dawn*

      So I am pretty much Queen of Truth so I absolutely agree with Ask Amy on this one. I’d begin by mixing up assignments so New Team and Old Team members intermingle on projects more. I’d also highly and publicly praise anyone on Old Team who is welcoming towards New Team. If that didn’t work tho, I absolutely would sit Old Team down, one by one, and explain to them in no uncertain terms that they are obviously shutting out New Team and that attitudes need to change or heads will roll. But then again I recognize that I have a bit of a steamroller/ BURN IT DOWN, BURN IT ALL DOWN kind of approach to things so my approach might be a bit heavy handed.

      1. neverjaunty*

        The letter writer already made efforts to try and get the ‘old’ group to be more pleasant, which were quite blatantly and rudely rejected – the thing where they brought their own lunches anyway and sat in a little clique was a blatant f-you to the letter writer. Now it’s just not just about old-guard hostility; it’s a power play.

        At that point, integrating teams or more ‘please be nice’ handwringing is pointless. Personally, I’d be telling them to clean out their desks, but someone with more patience probably should be sitting them down to explain that working as a team is not optional, that it is a mandatory part of their job, and if immediate changed did not happen they would be fired.

        1. Dawn*

          Yeah OK I’m totally with you, I was just trying to temper my BURN IT ALL DOWN response :) For me I’d want to be absolutely sure that I gave everyone one last Come to Jesus talk before bringing the hammer down, and I couldn’t tell if the original LW had done that or if they’d been more gentle about it. But yeah, I’d Bring the Pain if it didn’t get better fast.

          1. neverjaunty*

            I am definitely on Team Flip All The Tables with you! But probably one very very serious talk before firing anyone is the better path.

    3. Laura*

      I don’t think they were actively snubbing so much as they were actively NOT participating in something obviously meant for everyone. Cliques are so common in the workplace, but that kind of thing is really unkind to the letter-writer and the new people.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      That LW is dealing with some very tall two year olds.

      I have zero patience for this crap. It might help the LW to get an attitude on because the Old Group is not understanding that cooperation is not optional.

      I would give them all a warning. The job requires regular AND professional interaction with others. If you cannot do that for whatever reason, you have failed to meet a major component of the job. Therefore you will be dismissed. Period. No arguments, no exceptions. Work together or leave.

      At this point, one could expect an outpouring of complaints about the new people. I would tell them I will handle their individual concerns on a different day. Today’s focus is on working together, this means speak when spoken to; initiate conversations regarding the work; answer questions as fully and helpfully as possible and have work completed in appropriate time frames and to the best of their ability. This is starting today and right now.

      I think this is one of those situations that a boss cannot be afraid of, the boss must go in and restore order to the group.

  118. super anon*

    we are hiring for a position at my work that pays $60k. my coworker is leading the hiring, and has decided on this hiring process:

    – a phone screen with the short listed candidates on technical questions
    – after the phone screen sending the candidates 2-3 behavioural questions that require 2 page essay answers
    – they also have to create an entire strategic plan for the role
    – they have until monday to both of these things, disregarding the fact that this is a holiday weekend
    – after this screen processing the candidates will have to create a 15 min presentation on their strategic plan and how they will implement it in their first year

    my coworker is of the opinion that if candidates don’t like this then they don’t really want the job and we wouldn’t want to hire those candidates anyway because they are lazy. it doesn’t matter that this is a holiday – my coworker don’t recognize this weekend as a holiday so no one else should either. if applicants really want the job, they will be willing to do this over the weekend.

    no one can convince them that all the good candidates will have options and will peace out the moment they see this. apparently our boss told them not to do this, but they have decided to go forward with the process anyway.

    1. Dawn*

      “but they have decided to go forward with the process anyway.”

      Pop some popcorn ’cause you’re gonna need it for the fallout from this decision next week :)

    2. alice*

      Get your boss involved. No sane person is going to spend more than one or two hours on a job application, especially when some of that prep could be used by the hiring company (like a strategic plan for the role). Salary has nothing to do with it. If your coworker won’t budge, then he needs to be removed from the hiring process.

      1. super anon*

        we had a teleconference where he told our bosses this plan. they pushed back and told him to amend things, and he did.. but i heard it from a trusted coworker that he plans on ignoring his bosses. because i didn’t hear it myself (this coworker refuses to speak or look at me) i doubt i can bring it forward to them. i’m already having conflict with this coworker, i don’t want to make it seem like i’m a dramastirrer by reporting something i wasn’t directly told.

        2. ginger ale for all*

          I wouldn’t get involved either. If your co-worker is going to ignore a direct order from the boss, let that play out on it’s own. If it was a life and death situation or something that was going to directly affect you, it would be different but you are just a bystander in this.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Will this position report to your coworker? Because if so, you’d be doing the candidates a disservice by covering up what he actually is like.

      If the position reports to someone else, that person would like to know about this.

      1. super anon*

        the position reports to our boss, so they won’t have to interact with this coworker much, luckily.

        honestly, my workplace is insanely dysfunctional and this is only one of a litany of things that have happened that made me go “whaaaaat?!?”. i’ve been job searching for a while.

        i’ve started telling myself i work with aliens who are experiencing human life for the first time to explain the oddness that happens around my office.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          The only way this could get better is if it was actually your coworker’s task to create and implement the strategic document for this position.

    4. designbot*

      I feel like these strategic plans are going to be uniformly terrible if they are made before the interview. A good candidate will submit a plan that is 100% research and a timeline for constructing the *real* plan, because they cannot possibly know enough about how your company and this role operate to form an effective plan at this stage.

      1. zora.dee*

        yeah, I don’t think they think they will get anything really useful from this exercise. They are just trying to make the candidates jump through hoops to show they will WORK HARD just because. It’s a dumb move. And a waste of everyone’s time.

    5. Joanna*

      Perhaps you need to remind your co-worker that the best candidates will be considering multiple positions and so will have other demands on their time that make producing a quality product in such a short time span difficult.

      You could also tell them that requiring so much work of candidates in any time frame, let alone such an awkwardly timed one is very bad PR for the company. It communicates to the candidates (and any friends/family they may tell about their experience) that the company makes unreasonable demands of their staff and is out of touch with professional norms. That’s probably not what you want the company to be known for!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        “Coworker, how will you explain to the boss that you have one or zero applicants?”

  119. Isabel C.*

    So, yay, I’ve been getting a bunch of interviews: some phone, some in person, some phone progressing to in-person. One of the places I had a phone interview with just emailed me an invitation to an “interview night” where I’d meet various people, have refreshments, etc.

    Problem is, I’m several states away, visiting family, and my tickets back aren’t until two days after the event. (I’d figured if anyone asked for an interview, I could schedule it for when I get back–especially as a lot of people will be out for the early part of next week anyhow, in the US.) I’d like the job, but not enough to give up time with my folks and pay the airline for the ticket change just for the interview.

    Will this totally kill my chances, do you think? And is there a particular way I should phrase my refusal? I was thinking:

    “Hi, Cersei!

    Thank you so much for getting in touch. I’m honored that you asked me to this event, and under normal circumstances I’d love to attend: it sounds like a wonderful event! However, I’m currently in Delaware with my parents, and won’t be able to make it back until X. I’d be very glad to meet with people then, though, if that’s an option!”

    1. Dawn*

      That sounds horrible. That sounds like some sort of Hunger Games style “who can schmooze the hardest” party put on for upper management’s entertainment that’s going to end badly when someone spikes the punch with Ex-Lax.

      I think your reply is great and well written, and I would strongly coach you to put that company out of your consideration even if they do get back to you wanting to meet after you get back.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I’d leave off “with my parents” and just say “currently out of state” or some such.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I agree, it’s not important why you’re away, just that you are. And maybe instead of “won’t be able to make it back until X”, I’d say “and unfortunately my nonrefundable flight back is for X”.

  120. Marie LaFerriere*

    Looking for advice on how to make the best of something I would normally never dream of doing–submitting an unsolicited resume.

    Backstory: I work from home for a giant corporation and am looking for new opportunities after 10 years. The downside of working from home is that closeness to job opportunities for me did not factor into the selection of city at all. However, there is a single VERY small company that does my type of work in my city–based on the website seems like they might have a max of 10 employees. I’m extra interested because they do localized work (related to our city, the bay, that kind of thing) and I LOVE where I live. So this is just great all around.

    The site has no job openings listed but does have a careers@tinyco.com email address. How do I make the best of this? I am thinking of making a chattier than normal cover letter, emphasizing the fact that we are neighbors and I’m particularly interested in the fact that their work is local, but beyond that I’m stumped. I’m really at the mercy of whether or not they can fit someone else with my experience level on their tiny team.

  121. AliCat*

    I have recently been approached by the higher ups about an internal opening. I have had some informal conversations with the individual that would be my boss and they have flat out told me that they would like to see me in that role. Obviously I’m not going to put the cart before the horse on this until I see something official but I’m wondering about what my options are for negotiating salary.
    I work for a public higher ed institution and the starting salaries for pay grades are pretty set with a 10% range. Anything beyond that needs to get Board approval…which never happens. The position would promote me to the next pay grade, which is only a slight bump, but since I meet the minimum requirements and then some (extra degree, extra experience) I really don’t want to get shortchanged and get offered the bare minimum (which happened the last time I got promoted). I’m wondering if I have any room to negotiate here if they do offer me the bottom of the bracket or if I’ll appear out of touch with norms if I do? We have a pretty strict formula for calculating starting salary but our institution is notoriously cheap so I’m worried that they will argue that an additional degree in an unrelated discipline isn’t worthy of additional pay (the job requires a Bachelor’s in any subject from an accredited university). I mean the difference would be over a couple of thousand a year so not loads but I live in an area known for its outrageous cost of living so every cent makes a difference.

    1. Laura*

      I also work for a similar institution and I am wondering the same thing. Hopefully someone chimes in!

      1. higheredrefugee*

        Given that you are an internal candidate, and you know the range, I would counter a low offer with a figure that is slightly above the mid-range, laying out your case of experience, education, and SKILLS. The skills piece you can point out that they will not need to send you for or pay for additional training. Given the number of pay freezes in higher ed right now, you need to make as much money as possible. They may not budge from their initial offer, but you can at least try, and they are likely to meet you somewhere in the middle. Remember, that extra money isn’t just salary – it is the increase in matches to your retirement, any future annual increases, etc. Good luck!

  122. Meg Murry*

    I inherited a bunch of documents that have been edited over the years by users with varying skills in Microsoft Word, using various versions. Basically, the formatting is completely foobared, and it almost needs to be scrapped and started over.

    I’m trying to decide whether I want to go ahead and fix all the instances of manually numbering, manual bullet points, manual instertion of hanging paragraphs using line breaks and the space bar instead of automatic, etc, etc. I’m thinking of throwing up my hands and just saying “good enough” and then manually updating the table of contents like I know all my predecessors have done, but ugh, I know future me will hate current me for that, because there is little more I hate than manually updating numbers that can be done automatically.

    Banging my head against the desk now, then I’ll go see how far I get before I throw in the towel. Happy Friday to me.

    1. AMT 2*

      Oooooh, that is so frustrating – at the same time, I really like doing that sort of thing and would happily start over rather than try to fix it! It’s usually less time consuming in the long run. In this type of scenario I’d start a new doc and copy and paste info in, using my preferred formatting for it all. When its done it will be so pretty! I also really enjoy re-doing spreadsheets; actually, I enjoy that more as Excel is way more fun than Word, which is some sort of devil’s spawn as far as I’m concerned ;)

    4. animaniactoo*

      If you go for it, here are some tips from my typesetting days:

      1) Create a standard template for yourself with the various paragraph stylesheets that will apply to all of this.
      2) Copy and paste the old documents into your new template and then simply apply the new stylesheets as you go.
      3) “Find and Replace” is going to be your best friend. You may have to do an advanced search, but you can replace “____” with “tab” from there. I used to have to do it in diminishing numbers of spaces to get there, but it was a lot faster than manually changing all of them.
      4) From there it will be fairly easy to find the places where you’re now doubled up on manual bullets or numbers and just remove the manual one (you may even be able to delete all the manual bullets with the find and replace).

      Word is not my primary application, so if I screwed up some terms, please forgive, but the functionality is there in those places.

    5. Terra*

      If the worst happens you can copy the text into notepad and then back into word to strip the format. Use with caution!

  123. Junior Dev*

    Can I get people’s take on the culture that has developed around salary negotiations? I’m going to lay out my own situation but I’ve already decided what to do; I’m more interested in having a conversation around the ideas that are out there.
    I’m working a temporary job at a code school/boot camp, and have had several interviews for a software engineering job. Yay!
    The code school where I work had a speaker who gave a lecture on salary negotiations. His take was that you should *always always always* negotiate. If you don’t you’re leaving money on the table, you will make hundreds of thousands or millions less over the course of your career. Women get paid less because we don’t negotiate and we should buck that trend.
    I found a bunch of articles online saying similar things.
    Then I go to talk to the external recruiter who got me the aforementioned interviews. His take is that since I am relatively inexperienced and he knows this company’s practices, I should not attempt to negotiate salary.
    I got really frustrated and confused by all this, and had kind of an unfortunate conversation with the recruiter which I later apologized for, where I was trying to reconcile his advice on this company with all the stuff I’ve heard about how you should always negotiate.
    I have also heard hiring managers express frustration with entry level applicants trying to negotiate, in other contexts.
    So I’ve already decided what I’m going to do regarding my own situation but I want to hear people’s take on some related issues.
    -If you have hiring experience, do you feel that whether it’s appropriate for people to negotiate depends on certain factors, or should they always negotiate? If the former, what are those factors?
    -Do you feel that the narrative that failing to negotiate is “leaving money on the table” is accurate?
    -Have you or anyone you know ever experienced negative consequences from negotiating, or doing so too aggressively?
    -Have you ever felt anxiety or pressure to negotiate even when it wasn’t strictly necessary for your own happiness or budget?
    -Do you feel pressure to negotiate or not negotiate based on your gender or any other social/identity factor? I personally felt I had to negotiate to avoid falling victim to the gender wage gap, but realized that’s a larger issue than what I can personally feel responsible for.
    I guess what I’m getting at is that I feel there’s a lot of pressure out there to handle these things a certain way, but that pressure doesn’t take a lot of important factors into account and I’d like to discuss that.

    1. AMT 2*

      I’ve never negotiated salary actually, I’m in my sixth job (fourth in my career path). I feel like its somewhat ridiculous to say you should *always* negotiate or *never* negotiate if you are entry level. For myself, if I am offered a salary in the range that I was hoping for, that I feel is a fair value for my skills then why would I negotiate? They are valuing me the way I would value myself. If you are entry level but offered $8/hour for a job that requires a fair amount of skill and knowledge or a degree, then yes, negotiate but also, they will not like because they are obviously not wanting to pay a fair market rate. I think every situation is different, you cant follow hard and fast rules. If a company felt that my negotiating was inappropriate and I felt they were low-balling me, I’m not sure I’d want to work there; I would feel undervalued and also know that I probably wouldn’t be seeing much in the way of raises or promotions. So I think for all the advice: take it all with a grain of salt, and apply only what fits your situation.

      Sorry, that’s probably not very helpful!

    2. designbot*

      I feel like a lot of the tension between “men negotiate and women don’t” and “you’re not in any position to negotiate” can be summed up as, any of us may find ourselves in a position where negotiating isn’t really viewed favorably, and women are more sensitive to those moments than men are. Your recruiter may be 100% correct that it wouldn’t be viewed favorably–a man would likely plow through and negotiate anyway.

    3. Anxa*

      I feel a lot of pressure to negotiate, should I ever be in the position to.

      But to be honest, I just need that first year of experience so badly I would work for peanuts. I don’t really care about any benefits at this stage. I job that pays enough where I could live off of one job and not have to constantly feel like my current job is a distraction from being employed and actually is my employment? That’s the only benefit I really care about right now.

    4. Terra*

      I think some of the confusion comes from the term “negotiate” and how it gets interpreted. It seems like most articles and advice assume salary negotiations go (or should go) something like “We’ll offer you $30,000.” “No, I want $35,000 because I am awesome.” “Okay, you can have $35,0000.”

      To my way of thinking that’s just one way of negotiating. If you research the job and industry beforehand, realize that the salary for an awesome employee is $35,000 so you put that in as an initial request or “opening bid” or whatever and get it I’d argue that’s also negotiating. Other people don’t seem to think it is because there’s no back and forth but you’re still ending up in the same place as the above example so you haven’t lost anything.

      I’m also female and in an industry where women do tend to get paid less. I think the money can matter but it’s more that I feel pressure to know what a good or bad salary is than to feel pressured to negotiate. I hate negotiating generally so I tend to go against advice and usually name the first number that’s on the higher end of what I want/is reasonable and then go from there.

      1. Junior Dev*

        I like your take on this a lot–that there are different ways of negotiating.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I pretty much hate the pressure to negotiate. It’s like buying a car—seriously? Just offer me a fair salary and fair benefits. Give me market value, what you think I’m worth. Don’t try to trick me into accepting less than I’m worth. Don’t offer me less than you’re willing to because you expect me to ask for more. Just play it straight. You’re not hiring me to be a negotiator, right?

      1. Junior Dev*

        This is my preference as well so I’m totally ok with not negotiating. I just hate the culture that tells me I’m committing some grave error by not doing so.

    6. Cookie*

      This is a big part of the reason that I prefer government jobs. It’s nice to know upfront what the pay will be and which pay grade you’ll fall into. Otherwise, I would definitely worry about 1) leaving money on the table and 2) being underpaid compared to male peers due to gender bias.

  124. LonelyManager*

    Hello everyone! First time commenter, here! I would like to apologize for the rambly nature of the below but I am just trying to get it all out there. Appreciate any feedback!

    Here is my dilemma: I like my job and my boss. However, I really can’t stand being in or working in my office. So, the structure of my organization is that my firm is a sister company (firm B) to another firm (firm A) and my firm essentially rents desk space from its sister firm. Our work, however, is wildly different, as are our working styles. My firm (B) is greatly outnumbered (by a large margin) by those at firm A, and I do not work directly with any of them. The office is an open plan (which I really can’t stand and am very unproductive in), everyone always has headphones in, no one really has a professional reason to talk me, the office is a 2 hour roundtrip commute for me, and I am personally in a very different spot in life than everyone else. (I am the only unmarried person under 40, I do not have kids or one on the way, I am very social in a singles sort of way, etc.). The end result is that I am painfully lonely in my office. No one talk to me in a meaningful way, though I have tried to develop relationships with everyone (not that I am on bad terms with anyone, but I don’t have any real friends or buddies in the office). This all makes it physically and emotionally painful for me to go into the office. I do have the option to work from home sometimes (and when I negotiated my position I indicated the distance was very tough for me, and asked if I would have the option to work from home, to which they responded I could as much as I wanted, effectively) but I find myself feeling guilty or “taking advantage” of my situation if I do so too much (especially since my boss lives close to the office and is in quite frequently). I am happier and, more importantly, more effective when I work from home. Most of my work is over the phone and email, anyhow, and with clients in other states and countries. So really I need help with two issues here:
    1) How do I combat this feeling of painful loneliness in the office? I am a true extrovert and am very social, and I find no one in my office has any interest in being social. I even tried to initiate happy hours, invite coworkers to events I was hosting, and all to no success. It is starting to lead to anxiety and depression and I don’t want to get too far down that hole.
    2) Should I feel guilty working from home ever? Should I reiterate to my colleagues what we had originally discussed about my telework flexibility? Being home alone feels less lonely than being in my office full of people due to the circumstances above. Plus, the open office environment is exceedingly distracting and I find myself holing up in dreary conference rooms by myself all day, which makes it worse because I know I have at least an hour drive back home.

    Thanks so much!

    1. Dawn*

      1) Leave- either to another job or working from home full time. If you’ve tried and failed to make the office more social, the office isn’t going to change, so you have to be the one doing the changing. Sucks, but it’s true.
      2) NO. If it’s been blessed by your boss and your boss is 100% OK with it, IT IS FINE. When guilt sneaks up, just yell “NO! THIS IS FINE! BOSS SAYS IT’S FINE!” until the guilt goes away :)

    2. everything matters*

      Nothing to be feel guilty about. But working from home doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Why don’t you ease into it start with a day or two a week. And you could always have one day a week in the office that you use to touch base with the boss.

    3. designbot*

      No help on #1, but for #2 try scheduling specific days, that way it just becomes a part of your routine. So when you’re not in the office on mondays and tuesdays, or whatever days make the most sense for you, it’s not a choice that you’re beating yourself up over each and every time it’s just “this is what I do.” If you need to run it by your boss to make you feel like it’s ok, do so.

    4. Colette*

      Open office + earphones makes me think that the introverts in the office have all the social contact they can handle already. And it also sounds like the others in the office have different outside work commitments than you do, so if they’d be interested in a social event, it would need to be during work hours. Have you asked if anyone wants to get coffee or go for lunch?

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with working from home, providing your manager is on board, and the most I’d say to coworkers is that you’re working from home X times a week. However, I wouldn’t go to full time working from home immediately – it’s an adjustment for you and for the people you work with, so I would want to make sure you can stay in the loop before removing yourself from the environment.

      1. LonelyManager*

        It is a challenge to even be social during office hours and make any sort of meaningful connections. I get forgotten about a lot and sometimes not treated as a part of the “team” (because I don’t directly work with them, but my firm is literally 2 people, so it’s hard for me to have any other people to talk to). I do ask people to lunch and sometimes others ask me to lunch, but I can rarely go out for lunch anyhow because I generally have to work through lunch. But when we do go to lunch, it feels so rote because all they talk about is due dates, mortgages, etc. which are all things I can’t relate to. Not faulting them for having other priorities (which is fine) or the projects they currently work on, which I have nothing to say about. The relationships just feel forced and like its a round peg/square hole situation.

        1. LonelyManager*

          And regarding their different outside of work commitments, that is the story with everyone. If someone doesn’t have a kid to take care of, they likely have something else that requires their time. In general, I always feel like I am invading their space and trespassing on their territory. I am an alien in my office.

          1. Jennifer*

            Well.. it sounds like for various reasons, you’re just not compatible with this bunch. I think you’ll just have to stay “lonely” because these folks literally don’t have the brain space for anything beyond work and families, apparently. Or just work from home as much as you can. For various reasons, they just are not up to socializing with you and I think you’ve done whatever you can to change it and that doesn’t work for them.

            Also, nthing that open plan + headphones = “FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I’M TIRED OF PEOPLE I NEED SOME QUIET.” Socialization is the last thing they want more of, I suspect.

          2. Colette*

            As much as I like my coworkers, there’d have to be a pretty compelling reason before I’d hang out with them after work. There is zero chance I’d hang out with someone I didn’t know well who I don’t actually work with.

            On the other hand, I’d be more open to socializing during the work day, and that’s where I think you need to focus. Can you make a point of going for lunch every day (possibly on site – I don’t mean you need to buy your lunch every day) and then working a little later?

            What about getting a candy dish? Those tend to attract people (and some socializing)?

            1. Isabel C.*

              This, only more so. In my last job, I liked the other employees well enough, but I had zero desire to socialize: I had enough friends outside of work, and even at lunch I would have rather read/surfed the Internet/hung out with nonwork friends. I was there to work, not talk or get to know people, and they mostly, thank God, felt the same. Even a weekly lunch or regular chat at the candy dish would have been more than I wanted.

              These days I might be a little more open, depending on my position and the crowd there (due to various circumstances, I have fewer social interactions outside of work) but there? Nothing personal, sure everyone’s lovely, but…the Internet exists, so.

        2. Colette*

          Do you talk about your interests? Ask them about books/tv/sports?

          It sounds like you’re fundamentally not interested in what is going on in their lives – which is fine – and possibly like they’re not interested in yours – which is also fine. Ideally, both sides would be able to give a little, but that depends on both sides being interested in building a relationship, and the only reason for that is proximity.

          Is your goal making friends with people who have common interests, or just having someone to chat with on occasion? The first one is much harder.

          Do you have rewarding friendships outside of the office?

          This may just not be the place to get what you’re looking for. If that’s the case, then you’ll have to figure out if working from home more is enough to make it bearable.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      What is your goal with this job? How does it fit your professional goals?

      I am noticing that you do not say you are looking for new work and I am wondering why.

      However, that to one side. My thought is set yourself up with a formal schedule. Let’s say Tuesday night is the night the book club meets, take Tuesday as a work from home day so you can get to the book club meeting. Then pick another activity for another day and make that a work from home day also. I am picturing every other day, but maybe that does not fall together that way. Working from home would help you get to the group activity at night and get some of that socialization you are craving.

      Most people can do sprints, if you knew that you had every other day at home or you had two days a week where you went to your group activity, how would that change your picture?

  125. White Mage*

    I have a question about something that happened a few weeks ago, which is over and done with but I was wondering if there was anything I could do differently.

    While my boss was out, I answered the main line (the receptionist was out too) and someone asked for him. They didn’t say who they were, where they were calling from, and the caller ID didn’t give any info towards either. I told him he was at a conference, and asked if I could take a message or transfer him to voice mail. He then asked for his cell phone, which I said I couldn’t give out. At this point I thought it was just a sales call.

    He seemed annoyed that I wouldn’t give it to him and then he says something about how it’s important that he talks to him right away. Stuff I’ve heard before from sales calls. And then said “this is [C-level person] from [one of our biggest clients who we currently have a project with that has been having issues for a few weeks now].” At that point I’m like, yup here’s his cell phone number feel free to give him a call.

    I don’t think I could have done anything differently there, but I felt a little embarrassed afterwards. But why can’t people say who they are and where they’re calling from when they ask for someone?

    1. Dawn*

      Did you do the thing where it goes:
      “Hello this is Company, White Mage speaking, how may I help you?”
      “Yeah let me speak to Boss!”
      (important bit) -> “May I please ask who is calling?”

      If you did that and he didn’t say, then no there’s not anything you could have done. If you didn’t do that, then yeah, add that bit in whenever you answer a phone and the person on the other line asks for a particular person. That way, even if that person is in the office and can take the call, when you go to transfer the person (and you shouldn’t ever blind transfer to someone high-up) you can say “yeah I have So and So on the other line, would you like me to put them through?”

      1. LonelyManager*

        Always ask “may I ask who is calling.” I managed an Ambassador’s office for a few years and even when people get huffy when you ask, you MUST MUST MUST screen their calls. They can say all they want that they know your boss well, they are good friends, they’ve known each other for years but if someone really should have their personal contact info (i.e. – cell), then they have to offer more information. It is absolutely common practice to ask who is calling.

        1. White Mage*

          I’ve answered phones for 10+ years, I know to ask that. But in this situation there was no reason for me to ask that because he wasn’t even in the office to take the call.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I see this part here, and handling a call differently because the boss is not there will cause problems like this. Yes, you do have to ask their names, whether the boss is there or not. And right here is why. If you make it your standard operating procedure to ask their name at the beginning of the conversation, they are less apt to corner you into doing something you don’t want to do. Control the conversation from the minute it starts.

            This guy was a bulldozer of a personality, it’s possible he had a Major Problem but there is no way to know that because he did not say upfront. Usually when people have a serious problem, they will tell you right up front so you are motivated to expedite their call. “Uh, White Mage, my building is on FIRE and I desperately need to talk to the Big Guy now. Can you help me?”
            I would suspect this guy wanted to talk about something less urgent like the increasing price of toothpicks.

            The next time just tell him it’s against company policy to give out private cell numbers and the best you can do is text/email/IM the boss to let him know Mr. Bulldozer called.

            There is something about taking that first opportunity to control the conversation that prevents people from pulling this stuff.

      2. White Mage*

        I usually do, but since he was out of the office I already knew he couldn’t take the call so I didn’t bother asking.

        1. Observer*

          It’s still worth asking – preferably when you pick up the phone, but certainly one he asks to speak to the boss. Something like “He’s not available. May I ask who is calling? I’ll let him know you called.”

          The other thing is that you might have mentioned that his caller ID didn’t show up. I’ve found that sometimes people assume that you know who is on the phone.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yes, asking who is calling is taking control over the direction of the conversation. I had some very awkward lessons before I caught on to this habit. Now it does not matter if they are the CEO, the pope or the queen of England. They have to identify themselves.

    2. Me234*

      “I’m so sorry but I can’t give his cell number away. Let me get your call back number, I will reach out to him right away and ask him to call you.”

      That would have been my response. We NEVER give out cell numbers. People can lie about who they are and how important their call is. It’s happened.

    3. Sadsack*

      I think I would have called the boss on his cell phone myself and told him about the call so he could call the guy back himself. I would not give out someone’s cell phone unless that is something commonly done there.

  126. Hairy G*

    I hope the leg hair intern had a positive outcome. I just wanted to say I spent several hours with boss this morning doing a somewhat manual labor-ish task that he and I volunteer to do about once a week. Since this job is messy I was dressed more casually then usual: capris & a tee shirt (I usually eschew baring my arms above the elbow) with unshorn, unbleached leg hair on full display. I’m pretty sure boss is oblivious.

  127. Accidental Analyst*

    I’ve worked with someone for over 10 years. They changed companies and got me a job when a position they manage became free. They’ve said that they appreciate my work and couldn’t do it without me. Sounds good right? Each time they say something like this I feel guilty. I’m not producing my best work as I’m burnout from a project (behind schedule, long hours, company politics).

    In addition to that my boss is looking at taking a big step up within the group. They won’t be able to take me with them like they had hoped. The proposal is that he maintains the current stage of the project. That someone manages the next stage. If I prove myself to that person they’ll look at making me an employee (currently a contractor).

    In an effort to sell this plan and my usefulness, my boss has oversold my value. He has said that it would take a couple of people to replace me and what I do. There is too much work for one person and the only reason I’m behind and not horribly behind is that I put in extra hours. But more importantly I don’t think I have the skills/experience someone in my position should. I’m finding it hard to carve out time to try and address these deficiencies but as I’m burnout. So if I do get to the next stage of the project I think the new manager will be expecting more of me than I’m capable of. Which isn’t good for me or for my boss’s reputation.

    Tl;dr

    I’m burntout, behind on a project, my boss is talking up my worth to get me made an employee, I’m worried they’ve oversold my benefit and then when I don’t met that standard it will look bad on both of us.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Talk to your boss. Say to him, “if you pass the football to me and I fumble, what will we do?”

      IF you have a good boss they have plans A, B annnd C for if you fumble. My boss digs me out all the time. And she does not mind doing that because she realizes I have been hit with an avalanche of work, no single human being could do this alone. She is pleased with how much I do get through.

      It has taken me a while to get used to the idea that my boss could see me buried and would actually freakin’ help. This could be your case, also. Ask, See what he says.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t read the mag so some of it is lost on me. It’s a glossy celebrity gossip mag. I guess she was surprised when she found it was cut-throat? I am not sure what she expected.

  129. The Rat-Catcher*

    I don’t think I am really asking a question here so much as venting:
    I’m an admin who is about to spend 6 weeks out of the office on maternity leave (exact start date unknown for obvious reasons). I have been working hard over the past month to make sure that things run smoothly in my absence and that my staff have what they need.
    We do training for our organization and recently had a six-month hiring freeze, which meant that our unit went through a significant slowdown in work. I volunteered for other work as much as I could, but still was left with a fair bit of downtime. The freeze ended two weeks ago, which has led to a hiring spike and a consequent spike in our workload which will continue after I have to be out.
    The crux of it all: my two-person team, while they have been wonderful about the pregnancy in general, is asking me to prepare items for more than a month after my scheduled return “just in case.” These requests have been made all within the last week or so and I simply can’t prioritize them over work that needs to be done while I’m out or will come up my first week back. I have barely enough paid leave to cover the amount of time I will be out, so barring truly crazy circumstances, I will be back 6 weeks after the birth. I am aware that things happen unexpectedly, and ideally I would love to plan in the kind of flexibility that they want, but it’s simply too late at this point.

    1. Joanna*

      It sounds like you’ve done a good job and at problem is with them. Of course it’s annoying for managers to have people out on days that weren’t expected but that’s a normal part of doing business. They have to be able to cope with that

  130. veronica*

    Hi there,

    In as few words as possible: Our HR Director/Office Manager (a position senior to mine) left us without front desk coverage this week and gave no notice (basically: hey guys, we won’t have coverage for the next two days — sent at 5pm the day before.) Since it was the end of the fiscal year, this created some really big headaches around mail and finance processing, so I wrote to him in language I found cordial asking him to give more notice in the future if at all possible since we really depend on the mail for important functions, etc, and that we can work together to figure out how to cover things. (I meant it truly to be solution-oriented and to help him understand how important the front desk is, though I am sure he read between the lines to know that I was, in fact, upset, and that he had made a mistake.)

    He wrote back in language that was defensive, hostile, and blaming. This is the very first time I’ve seen language/attitude like this from him — and I work for an org with a STRONG culture in terms of support and respectful language. I know I need to speak to him about this, as it’s 100% in opposition to how we talk to each other in this org, and I really don’t know why he got so aggressive, but as more time passes, the more I am worried about the power differential. He is senior to me and he *IS* the HR function. My conflict is with him. Is having a convo one-on-one with him dangerous? I’m not sure I feel protected if things blow up.

    1. designbot*

      If he is senior to you and he is the HR function, then how is it really your place to address this lapse with him in the first place? I suspect he got so aggressive because he found your email out of line for your relative positions, no matter how “solution-oriented” you tried to make it sound. From your first paragraph I assumed you were his manager, and he probably got that same vibe off of your email and reacted to the tone/feeling of “this little upstart is trying to act like he’s my boss” rather than the specific content of your email.

      1. veronica*

        Fair enough, I can see how I sound. A few notes in case anyone wants to read: He is new. While every org has a natural hierarchy, ours does not have one that is very rigid. And while he’s technically above me in the chain, I need to work with him as a peer on several functions. Feedback is a really strong and encouraged part of our culture. When he was hired, it was made explicit that he needed to be a steward of that culture. (I know how all this must sound to people in more corporate environments. But we’re a really emotive nonprofit!)

        Oh, and it’s clear that he screwed up. His boss let us know that he’s addressing that when he returns (he told us after he saw us all scrambling.)

        1. neverjaunty*

          I would quietly make sure his boss is aware of his reaction to you. Being senior doesn’t entitle him to be an ass.

    2. Me234*

      “I meant it truly to be solution-oriented and to help him understand how important the front desk is, though I am sure he read between the lines to know that I was, in fact, upset, and that he had made a mistake.”

      He is senior to you. Not your place teach him the importance of the front desk (I’m sure he knows) and to let him know you felt he made a mistake.

    3. Observer*

      Also, why in heavens name is the HR manager, and someone senior in the org, the office manager, covering the front desk and dealing with mail. That’s a seriously weird mix, and likely to lead to problems down the road.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I actually had to re-read your post after reading other people’s answers here.

      I agree with letting it go. You have gone as far as you can here. It is up to his boss to explain that what he did was NOT COOL. This dude is not going to accept an explanation from you. Hopefully the boss will also handle dude’s reaction to you, also.

      Frame it this way: You did your best to make your point. It did not go well. Now it is someone else’s turn to make the same point.

  131. Blunderbusst*

    Hey open threaders! I hope it’s not too late in the day to ask your advice. My question is: how do you know if/when to change jobs? Details in the reply.

    1. Blunderbusst*

      My job doesn’t suck, but I have a huge problem with our unit culture: I work in an open office with six guys, and they have extended periods of gross sexism/racism/ableism/every-gender-or-sexuality-related-phobia you can think of. After marinating in it for 3 years, I started mentioning it to our Unit Chief – both by citing specific examples of “this was gross” and by gently reminding him that he said he wanted to improve our unit conduct. He values my contribution A LOT, so he’s motivated to make a change to keep me happy, but he’s terrible at shutting down the gross comments, and is in fact one of the worst perpetrators (even though he says he wants to be a better person, he lacks the skills in the moment). I’m not sure how much more of it I can take.

      A new opportunity (including more money!) has presented itself, but there are downsides to it as well. Here’s a short pro/con list:

      Current (admin assistant)
      Pros:
      • Expected promotion to supervisory position in 6 months
      • Better facility
      • Job security
      • Overtime pay (with guaranteed overtime every other year)
      Cons:
      • Workplace culture is sexist/racist/ableist/xenophobic

      Offer (executive assistant to an agency director)
      Pros:
      • More money
      • Supervisory position
      • Opportunity to run day-to-day operations
      Cons:
      • Might outgrow the position quickly
      • No development path out of the position
      • Irregular hours
      • No overtime pay
      • Less job security (“serving at the pleasure of” position)

      So how do you know when it’s time to move on? I would love to stay at my current organization. I could push back on all the gross comments and in 6 months I’d have more standing to develop a stricter code of conduct, but is it just that I’m a bad fit here?

      1. designbot*

        I might stick it out for that promotion, especially since the alternative doesn’t sound like a slam dunk. However if something comes along that is equivalent to that promotion plus seems to be a better cultural fit, go for it! You’re in a great position right now in that you have a job where you are valued, so you can afford to be choosy when it comes to assessing your options.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        If you are going to change jobs hold out for something that has more than what this new job offer has.

  132. Cheesesandwich*

    Advice on dealing with a tricky subordinate? This guy applied for my job 12 months ago and didn’t get it…and I was recruited externally to fill the management role to which he now reports. The first few months of hostility were pretty unbearable and I tried everything (carrot and stick) to try and improve working relations. Things mellowed a bit until we hired someone new and at their first team meeting this guy regressed to his patronising, undermining ways – to the point where his hostility and rudeness was overt and made the other people who report to me uncomfortable.

    I have spoken with him about his attitude and tone toward me before (when I was about a month in) and I feel I have to take a harder line now because he’s had long enough to get over whatever problem he has with me. The disappointing thing is that outside of this he’s a pretty decent and reliable employee…but I can’t overlook this any more. Any tips on how to be firm without alienating him altogether? He shares an office with the newbie and I don’t want her caught in his weird crossfire.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “You’re doing X, Y, and Z. What’s going on?”

      Followed by, “I need you to to A, B, and C. Can you do that? … I want to be clear with you that this is a condition of the job, and if this continues to be a problem, it could jeopardize your job here.”

    2. neverjaunty*

      “outside of this he’s a pretty decent and reliable employee” is like the old joke: “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”

      2. SophieChotek*

        Apparently it was quite good…noted actress in the lead role (Laura Keene as I recall) in popular comedy…

  133. NovaWord*

    Happy Friday!
    I’m interested in a job at a place where my co-worker’s wife works – she’s out on maternity leave now, but I’m worried she still may find out I’m applying there and tell him (I don’t want anyone at my current workplace to know I’m looking). Is there a way I could avoid this, or should I just apply as soon as possible? Thanks.

    1. Jennifer*

      Is the coworker’s wife someone who you’d directly be working for or with?

      But…she’s on maternity leave. The woman is occupied up the wazoo. I’d be surprised if she’s in the loop At All regarding anything at work.

      1. NovaWord*

        “Is the coworker’s wife someone who you’d directly be working for or with?”
        It’s certainly possible. I am going to apply and hope for the best :)

  134. Anxa*

    Academic partners:

    Does anyone here have any good resources for trying to start a career while partnered to an academic? I have seen some, but so often it’s geared toward a two-body problem of two academics, as if every other career is magically super-transportable. Or it’s advise like “get a really portable career! (which I’m considering, but will be an uphill battle)”

    I’m at a bit of a loss with how to proceed. My partner is interviewing this summer as he wraps up his PhD. Anywhere he moves to will probably have a higher COL. I do not think I will be happy if I follow him again, as I did not handle being unemployed very well.

    The problem? I cannot afford to keep working at my current job without his financial support. I am working and contributing to our household, but when he moves I cannot just stay here. I could get another roommate, but I think that transaction would shake up our landlord to reconsider our rent…which is really low right now. Plus, I don’t want to stay here, even if it’s really cheap. I am hoping to find a mold free apartment, even at a premium.

    So I feel like I couldn’t afford to do my job, which seems ironic. I could then move home with my family or follow him. The problem? Even though he’s in an area with a highish COL, I don’t see much in terms of job postings for anything I’m qualified for.

    Then there’s the issue of maybe needing a car. If I stay here, I can get to work by bus. But I can’t get to two jobs by bus; bus service ends at 6pm. If I do manage to get a job in my target industry, those don’t have buses near them anyway (or walkable apartments).

    I’m not financially independent. I feel like I have to choose between working really hard at finding a second or better job before he moves, or end up living with him and not working again. I feel like this is especially hard as I’d like to have kids maybe in the next 5 years and I’d much rather save the ‘not working right now’ for that.

    I’m afraid that if I find another job in a new city, I’ll be back in the same boat in 2 years when the postdoc ends. So my primary plan is to stay here and hope I can get a good enough job in time to stay, and date long distance or break up (we are very happy with each other, but long-term unemployment was a terrible burden on our relationship)

    Sometimes I feel like throwing in the towel, getting survival jobs, marrying, and working on his projects with him.

    1. Anxa*

      I should also add, I don’t think I’ll be very happy trying to scrounge enough money to live on my own/with strange roommates either :(

      There are so many ways in which I could theoretically work in satisfying jobs while trailing him, but of course the odds of getting those jobs are so slim it doesn’t make sense to be that optimistic.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Hello from another academic partner! I searched for the same advice back when we started our series of cross-country adventures, and got zilch, so I feel you. I also searched a lot for advice for supporting your academic partner on the job market (which is crushing) and nada. There have to be tons of us, but for some reason we’re not as prolific on the internet…

      I only have less-helpful advice: I stumbled into a career that was extremely location-flexible. Most of the other partners who are non-academics had either done that, or took a series of survival jobs as you mentioned. Depending on what you do, you might want to think about whether there are jobs in higher education that interest you. There is a huge variety of jobs in universities, and while the pay is not always as competitive as the private sector, it’s usually pretty solid with good benefits. As long as you’ve got an academic spouse, you’ll probably be in a university town, and universities are usually open to some kinds of preferential hire for faculty spouses/partners.

      1. Jennifer*

        I think coming up with good helpful advice here is…probably not going to happen because this is such a hard problem and solving most of that isn’t under your control. If you can’t get another job, moving in with family may be the only option at all. If staying isn’t an option and moving while unemployed to be with him isn’t an option and getting a well enough paying job isn’t panning out…

        Life sucks.

      2. Anxa*

        Yes!

        There are so many things I’d like to do in higher ed! I currently work there, but I’d like to move away from an instruction-based career. The sad reality is that education staff is the least respected at a school and are the most likely to be contingent workers (which I’m sure you’re aware of).

        I guess I feel like if were married or if it were at a higher level (like, a TT position) then the academic spousal hire could be a possibility, but I’m not sure how it works at the lower levels…like a postdoc. It seems like in a way it would make a lot of sense for schools to help encourage making connections to qualified partners at this stage, because it’s even more critical early on, since the posting is only 1-2 years and then that partner hire could develop skills earlier on that could carry over into the future.

        There’s a very good chance his first postdoc will actually not be at a university, but an institute, which I know is less common.

        I feel very fortunate that my SO already has an interview lined up and is in a semi-pragmatic field and could be happy with an alternative career, but it’s still quite stressful. In fact, part of the reason I’m considering ending the relationship is that he’s worked so hard and could potentially have a really bright future. While I’d like to be considered in big life decisions, I don’t want to jeopardize any of that.

        1. Aisling*

          Don’t end the relationship just to make it easier on him. That’s actually quite unfair to him: you would essentially be making decisions about his own life for him. Don’t disrespect his own decision-making process.

    3. H.C.*

      You say your partner is currently interviewing for postdoc positions, so I would advise waiting until he gets – and accepts – an offer before making your decision. That way, you can do a more focused job search in the area where he is moving to and can better assess what your career options are, as well as whether you would move with him, have a long distance relationship or, unfortunately, break up.

      Also concur with Jillociraptor that you or him should look into openings that have preferential hiring or academics’ spouses or partners.

      However, in either scenario (staying put or moving with him) – the bigger issue is building the financial independence you lack, so you don’t wound up in serious money troubles due to unexpected income/expense issues (either of you losing your job, medical emergency, etc.) This does mean you have to substantially increase your income (higher paying/second job) or lower your expenses (roommate, moving in with family, etc.) so you can live independently, with savings for emergencies or a down payment/installments on a car.

      Best of luck.

      1. Anxa*

        Yes on the financial independence front! I’ve come a long way, but I’m just not where I need to be in order to feel comfortable and safe in my relationship (or on my own).

    4. Ultraviolet*

      I’m really sorry, this sounds like a difficult situation. Here are my thoughts–I hope some are helpful:

      – You say, “I’m afraid that if I find another job in a new city, I’ll be back in the same boat in 2 years when the postdoc ends.” Are you sure that situation would be as bad as your current one? You’d have more experience on your resume, which would help you find your next job. If your partner is planning to move on to a tenure-track job at that stage, his hiring department can probably help arrange a university job for you. And depending on how far his postdoc salary goes in this high-COL area, you might well have more savings. Also, as you say, long term unemployment and underemployment is really difficult. Having had a nice job for a year or more would probably mean your overall happiness level would be better than it is now.

      -Am I understanding correctly that your main fear about moving with your partner is not being able to find a job and then having to deal with the unhappiness and relationship strain of longterm unemployment again? If so, can you think of ways to make the possible unemployment less stressful? Could you commit to getting a “survival” job if you don’t find a job in your field in a certain amount of time? How would you feel about dedicating those two years to some really intensive volunteering? Dedicating yourself to learning some new skills that would help in your future career?

      -If you’re in similar fields, his new network in the new city might be able to help you find a job there. That’s often a better way to find a job than searching online for postings.

      -Is it decided already that he’s not going to do more than one postdoc? How would the possibility of him doing a second postdoc affect your thinking?

      -What is the probability of getting a good enough job in time to stay? At what point in the timeline would you decide that wasn’t going to happen? Do the odds of getting a good job here really sound better than the odds of getting a good job there, given that you’ve [I think] been searching here for awhile?

      I guess it sounds like I’m pushing you to follow him, and I certainly don’t mean to do that! I just have this feeling that there are more promising possibilities down that road than you’ve laid out here. On the other hand, if you don’t want to move with him and not have a job but also don’t want to move with him and end up with a job, maybe your choice is clear?

      And here are some thoughts on how you might weigh your options:

      -What is the very best thing that could happen right now? What would be the worst?

      – Ask yourself how you feel about / what you would do in these hypothetical situations: 1) You suddenly get a job offer in your field at a great salary in your current city; 2) You get a job offer for a job in your current city that isn’t in your field or super exciting, but pays enough that you could afford your own mold-free place and take the bus there; 3) Your partner says that he doesn’t want to date long-distance and feels you should either move together or break up; 4) Your partner breaks up with you; 5) You magically receive the knowledge that you have very good odds of getting a job in your field in your partner’s city; 6) Your current landlord raises the rent a lot, effective next month. Sometimes thinking through things like that can clarify your feelings.

      Good luck!

      1. Anxa*

        Thank you so much for such a well-thought comment.

        -I think my fear is that if I’m looking for a job in a new city, that I’ll have to volunteer for at least 6 months before I build any sort of a network. While I don’t have a full-time job now, I have gone to school and worked for 2 years in my current city and have a bit of network now. Maybe I’m overestimating the time it takes a find new jobs in new cities, but it took me over 2 years to find one here. I’m also afraid that the jobs I do have won’t really enhance my resume. I already look a little job hoppy, which is kind of ironic because I am loyal to a fault; but I have a long gap then two jobs that did’t work out AT ALL (one was a horrible fit). I also graduated in 2008 then took some refresher courses which ended in 2015. So I feel some pressure to do something with that soon. It’s in a fairly geographically-dependent industry (although the skills could transfer to university-based positions…it’s just so rare to find those jobs).

        -Yes. My main fear is that I will be a financial strain without contributing much, and thus will be unhappy. My partner’s never put pressure on me, that sometimes that almost makes it worse. Our relationship improved significantly once I had a regular job and was going to school. I am not sure about the survival job. I think it makes way more sense financially for me to go there, move in, and try to get a food service job (not the best fit, but I do have some experience), but then I’m afraid that too much time will pass between my ‘graduation’ date and trying to find another job. I feel very awkward asking for job references more than 3 years into a job search, which has slowed me down before.

        -We’re both in different branches of biology and science education.

        -There’s a good chance there will be two postdocs.

        -The timeline thing is so tricky! I have been searching for a while, but two of the companies nearby have began a large expansion lately. I have also considered that I could always move with him and keep applying in both cities. I keep forgetting about this as a possibility. Plus it’s not ideal because I think having me move in will make it very hard to find another roommate. So then he’ll have a whole apartment to himself for no reason. Oh well.

        I think the very best thing that could happen would be for me to find a job in local city that would allow me to buy a car and live in a reasonable apartment without him and for him to get a postdoc ASAP. We could date long distance for two years, and then I’d hopefully have enough experience to better follow him on the next leg of the journey if we’re still together.

        This has definitely given me a good framework to help think this through. But more than anything, I think it’s helping me accept how important planning is, but also how much will be left to chance and that there’s no clear solution.

    5. KR*

      I feel you, except that my partner is in the military. I made the decision when he enlisted that I wasn’t going to hinder my career for him and I had to enforce my decision this year – he was moving duty stations to a place with little job opportunities and I was in a position to uproot my life and move. It was so hard but I had to do what was right for me and that was stay in one place long enough to get relevant experience. Your situation is a little different in that you seem ready to make a change, whatever it is. I think what’s important is that you two talk over your plans. If you uproot your life and move in together in a new city he needs to be willing to give you some time move up in pay/advance in your career/get financially stable. Your career counts too.

      1. Anxa*

        Thanks for your insight.

        I know there are so many parallels between academic spouses and military spouses, but I feel so …well…shitty comparing the two. While his research can be a little dangerous, I’ll never have to worry about deployments or any of that (although in the future there will probably be weeks to months long research trips). Also, many dual career couples deal with this sort of thing.

        I have been having more successful talks with him about this. Before it was like pulling teeth because he’s a very compartmentalized person and had his dissertation blinders on and thought I was putting the cart before the horse, but he’s gotten a lot better about recognizing that just telling me to do what I need to do for me and not to let him hold me back doesn’t really help me feel supported.

        Another difficult aspect is that family doesn’t seem to understand that this is stressful time. Everything’s all about congratulations and there seems to be an assumption that of course we’re going to stay together (geographically, too) and I do tend to resent that aspect. There’s this expectation that of course a PhD is going to open doors and give us a lot of options (and there have been comments about “big bucks” and while the equivalent of 50K in a high COL area sounds like a lot to us, we know that once loans kick in it’s not going to be easy to support two people on that income AND start making up for those lost years of saving/paying down debt) and it’s so completely removed from what our worries and expectations are. Despite watching us struggle for the past decade there still seems to be this odd idea that more education = more job opportunities.

    6. Overeducated*

      This is tough. I moved for my partner’s postdoc, but we agreed that if I got a job in the area and needed to stay a year or two longer to advance, he would try to stay local even if it meant adjuncting or a non academic job, and if not, we could move for my job next. I did winind up getting a 2 year position in another state, so he will be finishing his postdoc remotely for a year and then looking for opportunities in new city for another. After that I guess it would be my turn to move for his job so I am really hoping it isn’t a TT somewhere with no opportunity for me.

      What I have learned is that we just have to make compromises we can live with and for me that means following my gut. A long term LDR was not something I could live with, so the career will not be what I planned way back, but the decisions along the way (getting married, having a baby) were also ones that reinforced that the relationship was going to take priority and made it less painful to not be contributing much financially for a year. My reasoning is that people make me happier than work, flat out, even though my year long job search did make me pretty anxious and negative. Your situation is different so you need to really check with your gut.

      The one thing about moving that could benefit your job search is that it would sort of restart the clock and give you a great reason to be looking in the new city. But that’s just a minor thought nobody’s mentioned, not a reason to move in itself.

      1. Anxa*

        I’m more open to a LDR. We dated long distance for the first few years of our relationship. Then we moved in. I do have an idea of about how long I can go between visits (7 weeks) and how far away I can be (must be doable in a day’s drive).

        I’m very torn because I do not want to throw away my career for a relationship, but I don’t seem to have much of a career anyway. I also feel like I spent a lot of time and money on an education that I want to make something of, but it’s probably sunk-cost fallacy thinking.

        I’m very hesitant to encourage my partner to adjunct, because I’m afraid it will be the kiss of career death in his field. Also, access to very expensive equipment is essential for his research. Our situation is different though in that I feel like a lot more is riding on his career than mine. It’s very tricky because on the one hand there are subtle sexist assumptions in prioritizing his career (we’ve talked about this previously and he’s overall progressive but has had blind spots), but there are very pragmatic reasons to do so as well.

        I think I will be happier day-to-day living with him, but I’m not sure yet if I’ll be happy with my decision to trail again. I’m not very ambitious but there are so many little things I would like to do and the idea of not doing any of them is not very fun.

        Thank you for sharing your story with me.

    7. Academic Wifey*

      I totally get where you are coming from here – my husband is an academic. I have a master’s degree myself, and now work in higher education admin. We met when I was just beginning my master’s and he was just beginning his postdoc. We’ve moved cities once (actually to a different country) together. I know you have some tough choices ahead.

      I get all of the theoretical objections and what ifs… but it seems like many of your arguments here are based on “what ifs” and “maybes”. At this point there isn’t a lot of information, or even a job offer on the table. I think you need to give yourself permission not to stress about all of these potential scenarios, and wait until you have something concrete to base a decision on. (Like you getting a job where you are, or him getting a post doc offer.) The best you can do is to plan for the life you have now and deal with changes as they come up. Otherwise, it’s all just speculation and you’ll drive yourself crazy with it.

      5 years ago I never could have predicted that this is where my life would be right now, yet I couldn’t be happier. Sorry if that is too frou-frou or out there. I’ve been where you are, and despite my careful planning and scenario-imagining, we’re not where I thought we’d be. But my husband and I both ended up in jobs that we love in a city that works for us.

      1. Anxa*

        You’re so right.

        I think I’m rushing the decision in part because I don’t feel great about quitting my job in the middle of a semester and trying to figure out housing for the upcoming semester if I continue working.

        I know, I know. I can quit anytime. But boy if it doesn’t feel awful quitting in the middle of a semester.

  135. H.C.*

    First time open thread commenter here too.

    My dilemma: I applied (and apparently got) a gov’t position, but the strange thing is that HR totally skipped the written offer letter stage (when I expected to negotiate some points, incl. compensation!) and emailed me a starting date letter 2 weeks from now (!!!)

    So far I’ve only had a formal interview w hiring manager & colleagues, an informal follow-up meeting with a verbal offer afterwards (& asked to standby for formal next steps) and a background check session with HR. None of these felt like the right time to start negotiating job details (though I did bring up during the verbal offer meeting that I would like to give more than the standard 2 weeks notice for my current job, given the ongoing projects on my plate.)

    Now I want to check to see how to do I go about negotiating these aspects (primarily compensation – which still hasn’t been made clear yet – and start date)? I’ve already started drafting a letter about my expectation of a written offer (& time to assess and discuss details – as needed) but wanted to get your thoughts on this.

    Thanks!

    1. H.C.*

      *amended to note 1st time commenting on open threads with my own query; I’ve responded to others before.

    2. Terra*

      To start with you may want to be aware that some jobs don’t allow compensation to be negotiated. I’m not saying you can’t try just that the compensation is dictated by some sort of rubric applied across the board to eliminate the appearance of favoritism and cronyism. So you may get told that the money is non-negotiable period.

      Normally I’d suggest negotiating at the verbal offer stage so the written offer can be sort of a final summary but it’s pretty strange that they wouldn’t tell you your compensation/start date/etc at the verbal offer stage so I understand why you didn’t. My main advice is to be aware that a lot of government positions have (or claim to have or feel they have) a lot of bureaucracy tying their hands when it comes to changing the status quo so you may get told that things are non-negotiable. You maybe able to probe a little about why they aren’t negotiable and then find out that they either really aren’t negotiable such as due to local law or just aren’t negotiable because it’s policy or someone doesn’t want to push for it. Either way you may have to decide how willing you are to push and what that could mean for your career since government unfortunately moves at the speed of a stick in the mud. Good luck!

      1. H.C.*

        Thanks for your insight; it was strange to me too why compensation & start date wasn’t brought up during the verbal offer, making it feel inappropriate for me to start negotiating that. Additionally, the informal meeting/verbal offer took place in an open office setting with potential co-workers within earshot – compounding to that occasion not feeling proper for negotiation.

        Also, the other strange thing is that the starting date letter didn’t include compensation information either, so I especially would like to know (and if possible, negotiate) that before beginning the job, especially since the low & high end of that position’s salary scale ranges over $20k.

        1. Cookie*

          In my experience, when a government position has a range the low end is where you start and the high end is where you max out after however many step increases. So still no real ability to negotiate.

  136. AnonAnon*

    Today is my last day of an internship. My office has two single stall bathrooms. I’ve had an IUD for a few years and just very surprisingly got a period. I was able to find 1 tampon in the office bathroom that I was in. Should I tell someone I killed the tampon supply? Normally, I would just bring in a replacement next week, but I won’t be here.

    2. Onymouse*

      Is there an office manager or someone that would reasonably be in charge of supplies? There’s no need to be embarrassed about discreetly pointing out a lack of supplies, be it soap, toilet paper, or tampons. You don’t even need to point out that you’re the one who used the last one if that makes it easier.

  137. ljs_lj*

    Did I screw up somehow, did they screw up, or is this a lucky escape from someplace bonkers in a place I didn’t really want to live in anyway?

    I applied for a position in my field, Teapot Education, at a school in Texas. I didn’t particularly want to move to Texas, but it was a good position that sounded interesting. A week or two later on a Wednesday I got a voicemail from the Teapot Education coordinator – she sounded really enthusiastic and upbeat and interested. She wanted to discuss my qualifications, etc – basically, a phone interview. I was not near my phone at that moment but I called back an hour or two later. Unfortunately, the coordinator was not available at that moment – I spoke to Admin #1, who took a message.

    On Thursday the coordinator called again and left a voicemail again – very upbeat, really interested, slightly apologetic for not having been available when I’d called back the day before, et cetera. I called back again – like Wednesday, probably an hour later – and the coordinator was busy again. I left a message with Admin #2, specifying that I would appreciate it if the coordinator could let me know the best time to contact her – I live in a different time zone, so it would be best if she could email me to do that – and gave my phone and email.

    On Friday – silence. I figured Fridays are busy, it’s summer, she might not even be in the office on a Friday in the summer. On Monday – silence. Ditto what I thought Friday. On Tuesday – silence. I was busy with family obligations and did not have a quiet moment to call back.

    Wednesday – now a week since the original contact – I called back and spoke to Admin #3 (who might have been the same person as Admin #1 and Admin #2 for all I know). Admin #3 gave me the Teapot Education coordinator’s email (I read it back to her to make sure it was correct) as well as taking down a message. I immediately emailed the coordinator and asked her to let me know if and when she was available Thursday or Friday.

    Silence again Thursday and Friday – no voicemail, no missed called, no email reply.

    On Monday of this week, I got a canned email from some other person in authority at the school – not the Teapot Education Coordinator and not an Admin – saying “blah blah blah highly qualified candidates blah blah blah good luck elsewhere”.

    I still don’t know why there was suddenly radio silence with the Teapot Education coordinator. I want to believe it was something simple like she fell ill or there were so many candidates that she gave up on anyone who didn’t answer their phones immediately or something. But I’m still really curious and a little put out at the lack of communication. And it doesn’t help that today I got a voicemail from a school very similar to the one in Texas but in a different state that also sounds upbeat and interested and I don’t want to screw up the process with not!Texas. Not!Texas is not ideal but much, much better than Texas would have been.

    So is there something that I could/should have done differently?

    1. Terra*

      You didn’t do anything wrong that I can see (unless possibly you came off as annoyed or abrupt in your phrasing to Admin #2). Sometimes the person they can reach and hire first is the one who gets the job which isn’t necessarily “doing it right” but it is how some places hire when they need someone quickly. If your email isn’t already on your resume make sure it is from now on and you might want to start leaving it as a way to contact you in your first message if it’ll allow you to give a faster response but overall I think this was probably mostly bad luck and a bit of bad hiring.

    2. Jennifer*

      I think you did the best you could. I’m guessing that contacting someone who couldn’t be reached instantly when they wanted you, plus your being out of state in a different time zone, just became too much of a pain in the ass for them to want to stay motivated to keep trying with you. Especially if some local person was easier to get.

      But think of it this way: you don’t have to move to Texas!

    3. Audiophile*

      I’ve had this happen. You didn’t do anything wrong. You returned both phone calls and called a third time to try and arrange something. there isn’t anything else you could have done.

      I don’t know where you currently live, but it sounds like you didn’t want to move to Texas. Is NotTexas more ideal?

  138. ManagerToBe*

    Two weeks ago, I got an unexpected phone interview for a position I had applied to, and they scheduled an in-person interview for today.

    Yesterday they called me and asked if they could bump it up to earlier in the day since it was a holiday weekend and I guess they wanted to get out early. Ok, whatever, not a big deal. They’re hiring for several offices, and all the managers are compiling their candidates to pull from.

    So I showed up a few minutes early, and my interviewer is in a meeting. One of the other managers pulls a third manager to interview me on the spot. They don’t have my resume, because… I don’t know. But I gave her a copy I had and we went into an office. She asked me a few superficial questions about what I wanted and my experience and then shooed me out. The whole thing lasted 15 minutes.

    I went out to my car and sent a message to my original contact, expressing my enthusiasm for the position and some additional details about my qualifications (and a thank-you for setting up the interview). I was careful not to badmouth her coworker who interviewed me.

    So… I’m not sure what to think.

    1. Audiophile*

      That’s frustrating.

      I had similar things happen to me. You just have to roll with it. Are you still interested in the position? It sounds like you didn’t get to meet with the person you were originally supposed to.

  139. Joanna*

    I was wondering about whether it’s appropriate to use achievement certificates or other performance documentation when applying for a job. At work I recently received a recognition certificate for great performance. The back of the certificate has a explanation of what I’ve been working on and why my work was noteworthy. If I end up job hunting while still in my current job, I obviously won’t want to use my manager as a reference so I was wondering if it would be appropriate to show a copy of the certificate as evidence of the nature and quality of my work or if that’s too far outside normal application material.

    1. TootsNYC*

      I wouldn’t send it to anybody; that would be weird.

      But you should put it down as an accomplishment on your resumé.

  140. Bed bugs*

    My worst nightmare is coming true: I found a bed bug in my apartment. I told my landlord right away and the exterminator was only able to find one adult male bed bug. They will come treat the apartment next week, but I’m terrified that there are more and that it’s a bigger problem than they say it is. I’m staying out of the room where they found it, but what else should I be doing? What should I do about work? I would rather quit than tell my boss I have bed bugs. Do I call in sick and make up some other reason? I’m so embarrassed and don’t know what to do.

    1. Oignonne*

      Here is a webpage that provides some information about employees with bed bugs-
      http://centralohiobedbugs.org/guidance-for-professionals/social-services/bed-bugs-in-the-workplace/

      It states that for an employer, “deciding whether to exclude the employee from the workplace is your decision. There are no health or OSHA guidelines that you can turn to for guidance.” It does also recommend, however, that an employer “discreetly speak with your employee, and ask them to bring a change of clothing with them that had been dried and sealed in a plastic bag just before leaving home. Provide a place for them to change. A space without carpeting or upholstered furniture is preferred. Have them place the clothing, coat, and shoes that they wore to work in a tightly sealed plastic bag or plastic container.”

      I don’t know your employer, so I don’t know if an unplanned, week-long absence would be accepted without much question. Ethically, I’m undecided. While bedbugs are extremely problematic and you obviously don’t want to spread them to others, you also can be asked to stay home (which is understandable in at least some industries- having someone with bed bugs at home cleaning hotel rooms would be a risky for the hotel) and there can be a stigma associated with having bedbugs. Whatever you decide, there are some steps you can take to reduce the risk of spreading bedbugs to your workplace.

    2. BeetsBearsBattlestargalactica*

      Don’t worry about it. Worry will only cause your situation to be worse than it really needs to be.
      I have anxiety and have been terrified of bed bugs. I travel a lot for work and in the fall I found a male bedbug in my home after traveling. I had sent him off to be identified by a lab. We spent lots of time and about $100 to have our house inspected by an exterminator. They didn’t find anything else and we did not treat. 8 months later and my home is still bed bug free, even after traveling and staying in another hotel room with bed bug signs (yes I should have checked more carefully right from the beginning of my stay).
      This experience actually taught me that I CAN handle things I’m really afraid of and obsess over. I’m weirdly grateful for the experience.
      Also there’s no need to be embarrassed. The exterminator has been in the wealthiest homes and the poorest homes in our town, and I am a neat-freak, germaphobe. It has nothing to do with how clean you are.
      I told my boss and he really didn’t seem to care, that’s probably part of his personality. I’ve also had a coworker who had bedbugs and he said the exterminator told him it’s unlikely he would ever bring one to work with him. You can pick bedbugs up in a movie theater and we’ve even seen one crawl across the front desk at work. Not to freak you out, but they’re everywhere. If you found ONE and you are taking the appropriate steps, you do not also need to worry about it or feel embarrassed. Just take the appropriate precautions and treat as needed.
      I hope this helps!

  141. Bed bug*

    I can’t find my post. I found a bug on my couch and called my landlord right away. Someone from a pest control company came to inspect and found one adult, male bedbug. He said I caught it early and they will be treating my apartment this week, but I’m freaking out. What do I do about my job? I’m too embarrassed to tell them about the situation. I’ve been at my job for less than a year so I don’t have vacation time. Do I call off work and say I’m sick? Find an excuse to work from home?

    1. Joanna*

      This is nothing to be embarrassed about, stuff like this happens to everyone at some point. You don’t have to tell them specifically it is bed bugs. You could say something like “I’ve had some very urgent unexpected home maintenance issues come up and as a result have to get tradespeople in to work on the problem. Would it be possible to change my working hours this week or do some work from home so I’m around when the tradespeople come?”

    2. misspiggy*

      There have been a lot of bedbugs discussions here! From what I gather, you probably would want to thoroughly launder your main work clothes and underwear, and put them in a very well sealed bag while the work is going on. If you also spring-clean your shoes and car that should help. Then I don’t think there would be anything wrong with returning to work without saying anything – you’d have done everything you reasonably could.

    3. Wrench Turner*

      If you don’t foresee needing to take time off for that, or if you can’t see how it would affect your work there’s no reason your work needs to know. Also, bedbugs just happen; life in the big city. People will go “Ugh, gross. Sorry. Good luck.” and that’s probably about it.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I know it’s the next day and you may not see this, but I hope you do!

      I had bed bugs several years ago. It was a nightmare, so I sympathize! However, know that the chances you’re carrying them into work are very, very slim. So there’s that. You need to take care of your stuff (wash all of your clothes in hot water, put all of your belongings in the middle of the room), so take a sick day and get it done. Tell them you have a migraine. If you need more than one day, your migraine is persistent.

      After that, you need to be out of your apartment while they treat anyway, so go to work. Go about your life as normal. You have nothing to be embarrassed about, but you don’t need to tell them. I remember I had a meeting that I ended up calling in for, and I did tell my colleague because I knew he would sympathize, and he did. People, especially in cities, are really understanding.

      I PROMISE YOU it will feel better when it’s all said and done. Living out of bags (I couldn’t put my clothes away for three weeks) sucked, and I spent about $300 on laundry, but eventually I got to a point where I could laugh about it.

      Also? Let me tell you how paranoid I am. I have moved twice since I had bed bugs, and there are still traces of bed bug bomb on one of my bookshelves. I refuse to wipe it off. Good luck. You will be FINE.

    6. Anne*

      Omg!! I’m so sorry. That sucks! Do you knknow w where you got the bed bugs from? It is my worst fear,…

  142. Lindsay J*

    A couple odd things happened at work this week that I could use an outside perspective on:

    When I came in to work this week, there was an opened (thankfully unused) tampon sitting on the table in my shared office. It was just the tampon in an applicator. I am the only woman who uses that office or works with our part of the company at all. It was not my tampon. I just kind of thought that it was odd, and moved on. But when I mentioned it to my boyfriend, he thought it might be a form of gender based harassment – that the tampon might be implying that they think I’m bitchy because it’s that time of the month or something. I work in a QC/compliance type of role, so I often have to ask the guys to do something, redo something, or to change the way they do something going forward.

    I haven’t gotten the impression that anyone there actively dislikes me. I have felt at times that they’re occasionally uncomfortable with me being there because they feel they can’t curse freely or talk about how hot the woman who does the weather on the local news is when I’m around.

    Then the second incident this week was that my boss emailed saying, “I need to know the dates you’re planning on taking FMLA maternity leave.” I’m not pregnant, planning to adopt, or planning on bring a child into my life in any way at the moment. Nor have I said anything that I can recall that would possibly make anyone think that I might be planning to.

    I responded something like, “Huh? Was this meant for someone else? I’m not pregnant, nor am I planning on taking any type of LOA any time soon.”

    He replied, “Hmm, that narrows it down. I though there were three [my job title].” That was the end of the conversation.

    To me his response makes it sound like someone told him three of his employees were planning on taking maternity leave, but not who, so he was randomly guessing who it was based on who were woman of what he perceived to be child-bearing age.

    Does anyone else have a different way of interpreting his response?

    Normally I would have laughed it off as just being awkward, but combined with the tampon thing earlier in the week I think I thought a little more about it than I usually would.

    Would you consider either of these things to be harassment? If so, should I do anything about it or just ignore it given that I’m not really disturbed by either of them. What?

    It’s a pretty blue collar environment so everyone is a little less sensitive/politically correct than in like an office or a bank or anything like that. (There’s cursing, the guys jokingly trash talk eachother, etc.)

    I don’t think the two events are related in any way because my manager works in a different location and doesn’t really interact with anyone else in my location besides me (and he interacts with me in a very limited fashion.)

    1. misspiggy*

      Sounds a bit like the bullet debate of recent days! I can’t imagine that the kind of bros you describe would be comfortable enough with tampons to do something like that – is it possible that it fell out of a trashcan or bag as the cleaner was doing the rounds, and someone passing later put it on the table?

      It doesn’t sound like harassment to me, but even if it is just a couple of weird coincidences but your gut is going to ‘harassment’, does that tell you something about your comfort level in that environment? Is your boss’s massive insensitivity affecting you in any other ways?

    2. KR*

      It’s definitely weird – why couldn’t he email the three of you and say, “One of you was planning on taking FMLA leave and I can’t remember! Someone refresh my memory!” Or something similar. The tampon is weird too, and since youre the only female it would probably be weird to as around about it. I’ve said weird like three times already, wow. I would be on the lookout for anything else amiss in the office but I wouldn’t take this as I harassment just yet. To reference last week’s bullet casing discussion, I could see it just ending up somewhere by a clueless male who didn’t know it’s useless out of its wrapper.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Absent any context, I wouldn’t take the tampon thing as anything other than a magically appearing tampon. As plausible an explanation as the next: somebody dropped a tampon, some guy picked up and thought “aha this is a tampon. I should give this to someone of the female gender as I have heard tell this is a useful product to that type and perhaps the closest female is the rightful owner.”

      Boss? That’s a version of asking someone if they are pregnant when they aren’t. He should be mortified and the part where he wasn’t mortified is irritating, but, absent other contextual issues, I think you’re dealing with Working while Female.

      1. Lindsay J*

        Yeah it didn’t really occur to me that the tampon was anything other than the guys finding it somewhere and playing with it because why not I guess, or using it to joke around with their buddies or whatever. I just didn’t know if I was being naive or something. (It was unwrapped so I don’t think the goal was returning it.)

        And I think my boss is just clueless about interacting with women/has no tact. My department was kind of bounced around to a few places before they decided that reporting to him made the most sense, and other than my department he would have worked with/managed very few women in his career. I don’t think he is married, either. I still think it’s kind of weird/uncool that he seemed to be guessing at who was pregnant (I’m guessing at least two coworkers got similar emails based on the “I thought there were 3″ comment” and the fact that he hasn’t seen me since the beginning of January so there would be no real way for him to think I look pregnant) but it’s not really something that offended me. I posted the exchange on my Facebook for a laugh.

        Only other context might be – as I said – that me being around ruins their boys club atmosphere. But everyone is generally friendly to me and that only really manifested at the beginning a bit, and occasionally now when they feel the need to apologize to me for cursing etc.

        I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t under-reacting since I know I have a tendency to let things go that maybe I shouldn’t (at work and in my personal life).

  143. Laura*

    Ugh, how do you deal with a sensitive coworker when you just want to be direct and get to the point???

    I guess I’m just fed up because I feel like I’m constantly having to tiptoe around this coworker and frame anything that could even be considered slightly negative in the most unnaturally positive way. It is exhausting and takes so long.

    I can’t even ask her a question about something without her getting defensive, pouting, or basically shutting down. And I mean literally just asking her a question about something that’s part of her job role (we’re the same level, but have no overlap of responsibilities). I feel like direct, honest, neutral communication should be the norm, but this coworker is making it impossible! I want her to meet me halfway, meaning, be more open to direct communication. Please help!

    1. AnotherTeacher*

      I agree about what should be the norm; but, it’s not. Think of learning how to deal with this coworker as another job skill you’re building.

    2. Oignonne*

      I would soften my language to the point where my requests sound friendlier, but are still clear (“Could you please send me that document by the end of the day? Thanks.” vs. “Send me that document by the end of the day.”). When she responds poorly to something, I’d ask, “did I do something to upset you?” if she is visibly distraught or say, “I didn’t mean that as an accusation. I know you’ve been doing a good job on the project,” if she gets defensive. You could also make a point of having an occasional exchange with her that isn’t a question about her work or a request for something (if you don’t already), but at some point you might just have to proceed with conversations even if she appears unhappy.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Have you asked her why? “Penelope, you seem upset, did I say something?”

      Be careful that you do not sound like you are barking orders. I have worked with lots of different styles. Some people when they are busy they become short/tense/abrupt. This can seem like you are blaming/angry with the other person because you are so busy.

      The defensiveness I would address by saying, “It’s just a question, not a personal attack.”
      The poutiness I would ignore. And shutting down I would report. A coworker who refuses to speak to me, gets reported because of her impact on my work.

      In a good moment you might want to just run it by her that you are a practical person and you prefer to state things clearly and succinctly. Tell her that it is perfectly fine if she does the same with you by speaking directly and stating what is needed.

  144. Overeducated*

    Late to the party, but what are your thoughts on sleeveless blouses in professional offices? I am trying to build up a more formal wardrobe (my current work clothes mostly trend toward business casual/creative, and my new job is in government so I think I shold err on the side of caution). Having trouble finding shirts with sleeves that aren’t winter weight.

    1. AnotherTeacher*

      As long as the sleeveless shirts are paired with cardigans or jackets, I think they are fine.

    2. Aisling*

      Depends on your office, really. In mine, sleeveless blouses and even dressy tank top blouses are fine as long as your bra strap isn’t showing- though I would pull on a cardigan for a meeting. Offices tend to be cool, so in the summer I tend to wear the dressy tank top blouses with a short-sleeved cardigan.

    3. Observer*

      If you are wearing cardigans or blazers, it shouldn’t make a difference. Otherwise, it very much depends on the office.

      Where are you shopping for shirts? Even during the winter I prefer cotton, and fairly lightweight, but I need opaque enough that you can’t really tell what’s underneath. I’ve had good luck with LandsEnd (not cheap, but not bad if you get their sale / overstock items). I know that others have had reasonable luck with LL Bean, which kind of surprised me, but the shirts really did work.

  145. Wrench Turner*

    I sent out gallery submissions that I will drop off and hopefully be hung up next week – they curate what they show on-site so… here’s hoping they like everything. If I sell at least 1 piece I’ll have made up my time/expense for the submission. Being an artist is a small business – you have facilities expenses, shipping/install/servicing logistics hassles, invoicing (and chasing past-dues, fun!). I just make it look good. And speaking of small business…

    The property management company start-up is progressing along. I’ve got a rudimentary business plan to estimate income from X properties. I’m still not sure what fees to charge for ala carte services but research continues. Meanwhile, I’m lining up specialty contractors one at a time to make sure I have every property issue covered. I also got a law firm lined up to help incorporate the business, and handle any legal issues going forward.

    EXCELSIOR!

  146. mehowe*

    Long time reader, first time poster, hope there’s weekend time left!

    I am a contract employee (freelance, a few different contracts, mostly writing/editing) and I work from home. I have had one contract for almost a year and I have performed consistently well and always met deadlines. Thursday night a storm knocked out power to some of my house (?) including my work area and my cable internet. I had assignments posted for me Friday morning and due Saturday morning — this contract usually has a very quick turnaround. I was able to send an email to my manager explaining the situation, apologizing sincerely, and acknowledging that it was truly unfortunate that it happened on a holiday weekend (unfortunate for both of us because it’s hard and expensive to get repairpeople out). I asked him if he would prefer to reassign the work or for me to do it as soon as I could.

    The work is gone from my queue, so I assume reassigned, but he did not otherwise respond in any way. I’m not necessarily looking for sympathy for my repair woes but now I’m worried I’m in trouble. He’s usually a pretty chatty guy. How should I handle this?

    1. A Biscuit*

      It may just mean that he was too busy to respond at the time, had to scramble to find someone else, etc., and he will say more soon. I don’t know the details about your office set up or where you live or anything, but if it were me I probably would have been the one scrambling myself–finding somewhere else to work. Somehow getting it done. If you are concerned that he will limit assignments or something, then maybe you could come up with an emergency back up plan and convey it to him for any future situations.

      1. mehowe*

        I had thought of going to the library to work, but I don’t have a partner and my child is not old enough to deal with repairpeople. I decided to prioritize being available to handle repairs and getting things fixed as soon as possible so that I could get back to work. As a freelancer I have multiple clients and deadlines: this one was pretty much shot but if I got back up and running quickly I wouldn’t miss any others. I guess it was kind of a triage and I do feel very badly about letting the one client down but I also think that I made the best decision under the circumstances.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Unless your manager has done other things that are worrisome, I would assume all is well. You let him know you were overloaded and he fixed it.

      I would just call him up and ask how he would like you to handle that if it ever happens again. This would be his opportunity to correct you or to tell you that you handled it well.

  147. Snazzy Hat*

    The scenario: At the end of the interview, the interviewer says they’ll do callbacks early in the next week , schedule second interviews for mid-week, and hope to make a decision by the end of the week.

    Question to AAM crew: Has anyone ever gotten a callback AFTER the date they were told a hiring decision would be made? Part of me says “oh everyone goes through delays” and “your last rejection letter came two weeks after you expected it”, while another part says “they called you the day you applied and your interview was two days later, so it seems they’re on schedule; you didn’t get the job”.

    I am seriously stressing out about this. My initial interview went very well, and while I might not be “the best”, I have a lot of great things to offer and can see myself adapting very quickly. In other words, maybe I wouldn’t get the job, but the lack of a second interview is disconcerting.

    Thanks for the additional perspectives.

    1. Snazzy Hat*

      Clarification: I read over “How long can it take to hear back after a job interview?” and found a lot of situations with vague time lines, which is reassuring. My hyper-focused concern is that I was told a specific date for a hiring decision, and now that date has passed without a peep.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I was that person making that very late call. It happens for a lot of reasons.
        Shoot them an email to check in with them.

        Then go back to Alison’s advice. Forget about this job and continue on with your search.

  148. Ruth*

    I am expecting to go into a second interview (of three) for a server assistant position. I’m a little overwhelmed because I didn’t expect anything beyond one interview for this kind of entry-level position. The interview is apparently going to be with the director of food and beverage at the hotel.

    How different should I expect their questions to be from the usual “Describe a time you had difficulty working with a coworker” etc.? Or will their questions be in the same vein?

  149. Isabel C.*

    Second question–hope it’s not too late, and thank you to everyone who’s answered my first!

    I applied to a position at Teapots, Inc. back in March, had an interview, and didn’t get it: I didn’t hear reasons, but I think they just went with someone else, as the position closed immediately after I heard. In May, two other positions opened (similar roles, one more senior) and I applied to both, but never heard back. Since then, one has closed, but one’s recently been reposted.

    I’ve also recently updated my resume: nothing major, but listing my last job as having an end date rather than still employed (planned departmental closing), making a few format and wording changes, etc. The application software doesn’t let me edit my profile or reapply–but I do have the contact info for the hiring manager who set up the interview. Should I drop a line all “I noticed this position was still open, so I wanted to let you know that I’m still interested and to send you this latest version of my resume, as I’ve made some minor changes,” or should I just let it go?

    Thanks!

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