open thread – August 26-27, 2016

by Alison Green on August 26, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. TJ*

    I want more management responsibility, but the position I want doesn’t exist yet.

    I work for a small company. I was the first employee to be hired under my manager, about two years ago. Now, we’re taking on some new projects, and our department will grow to 5 people.

    This is going to make things much more complicated. Our projects rely on a lot of close communication, as well as sign-off from our manager. She already has very little time for sign-off, which sometimes means we have to push back deadlines. With these additional projects and new people to manage, that’s only going to get worse.

    Some of our work can be easily separated from the rest, though. I think it would make a lot of sense to do that, and for me to have most of the management responsibilities for those projects. I’m qualified; I’d essentially be doing the work I’m already doing. It’s just that for those projects, I would be the one signing off on things and resolving any issues that come up, rather than my manager. And I already do a fair amount of managing contractors — I’ve just never managed employees.

    So my question is: how do I suggest this to my manager? Will it sound like I’m trying to take away part of her job? Is that totally out of line?

    This is the first time I’ve ever been in this kind of situation, so I’d appreciate any advice.

    1. LSP*

      I’d just make an appointment to sit down with her and let her know that you’ve been thinking about upcoming changes to your department. Let her know you want to be available to help anyway you can. If she’s receptive to that, or asks what you had in mind, you can let her know that you’ve been thinking you could take on X and Y, but of course, you’d be happy to take on different tasks if she thinks that would be more helpful. Make a point to let her know that you think she’s a great manager (if that’s true) and drop in there (if it makes sense) that you’d love the opportunity to grow into more of a management-type role, if that makes sense to her.

      tldr; Just be honest about the upcoming challenges and be forthright that you want to help, and that you think it may mean an overall change to your role.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I would propose it as “I know you’re really busy and don’t have a lot of time to dedicate to this, and I was wondering how you felt about me taking things off your plate.” Something along those lines. She might be grateful for the chance to shift some things off her plate.

    3. KathyGeiss*

      What a cool opportunity. Great advice from those above. Another potential tact:

      Ask about what the plans are to manage these changes. E. G. “We’re seeing significant growth right now and that’s really exciting. Do you foresee any changes to our current structure and processes to manage this growth?” …wait… “I’ve been giving it some thought and have some ideas on how we can maintain efficiency. Would you been interested in hearing them?” Or “I wonder if this growth makes room for some new opportunities? I’m ready to take on more responsibility and I’d love to understand if this might be an ideal time to explore that possibility”

    4. NW Mossy*

      If you’re interested in managing (or other growth opportunities), by all means, say so! The more your boss knows about what you’re willing to do and what you’re interested in, the more likely it is that she’ll think of you when opportunities arise.

      I got my current job (and first manager position) this way. I knew that I was interested in it and that the person who held it at the time was close to retiring. I mentioned to the head of my unit that I’d like to be considered when it opened up, which felt weirdly direct to say. I’m so glad I did, though, because my predecessor ended up retiring a year earlier than I thought she would. My having said something made it possible for my unit head to quickly slot me into the open role and get a smooth transition out of the deal, so it worked great on both sides.

      My takeaway lesson? Don’t assume that other people know your objectives and will offer you opportunities on the off chance you might be interested. The more direct you are about what you want, the more likely it is that you can capitalize on sudden changes in the environment that create opportunity.

    5. Moonsaults*

      It’s important to give her the heads up and let her know you are willing and ready to make that jump.

      I am willing to bet that the growth is making her head spin and whereas it may have passed her mind to pass some responsibility to you, she may not know when or how to approach it.

      Part of getting into management is being self motivated and enthusiastic about growing with the company. Voice it. You can easily do that without being pushy or overbearing. Plant the seed. It sounds like you’ve already worked closely together for so long, it makes sense to make you her right-hand assistant manager at least. She can dish out specific times when you can sign off on things and go from there. It gives her more room to get things done as well to be able to shed a few of her hats.

    6. TootsNYC*

      nice ideas from everyone.

      one thought–I’ve just now done this myself: suggest it on a case-by-case basis. Maybe she could start passing a few of them off to you, to see how it works and also to help her when it’s really crammed.

      If she’s kind of touchy, you could start by saying, in the moment, “Is this something I could take off your hands? It doesn’t seem that tricky, and I can come back to you if it turns out to be.” And if she hems, then say, “it would free you up–you’ve trained me how you think, that’s got to work in your favor sometime, right?”

    7. Melissa*

      It sounds like you might be acting as de facto manager anyway, given your experience vs. these new people to come. I agree with others who say you can frame it to your boss as “I am anticipating these issues and I’d like to help.” That shows initiative so you’re not framing it as “I want this, I deserve this” but rather, “the team needs this, I can do it, will you give me the chance?”

    8. migrant worker*

      I am in this exact position. I’ve only been at my job a year and usually people at my level don’t supervise. I’ve got an intern that I’m managing now, so we’ll see how that goes, but we just hired someone at a level below me and she’s support on my project and others, so I’m taking on some de facto management responsibilities. I’m also usually the OIC when my boss is on leave.

      I’m going to be the lead on a major project that will really kick off Q2 next year, and my boss actually did the last iteration of this project (org structure was different at the time though). When she did it, she was actually at the level higher than me. It’s a 2 year project, so I’m thinking about a year from now, I might broach the idea of moving up a level and while I’d still report to her, I’d actually be the same level as her. It would also mean managing people, but that’s up in the air as to whether we can get new people. :)

  2. September Rain*

    How can I put skills on my resume that I’ve been trained to do, but don’t do very often? I’ve recently been trained to be the backup to my coworker for when he is out of the office or swamped with work. Since these skills are very different from my normal duties, I want to add them to my resume to show that I’m a well-rounded employee. I’m just not sure how. Do I need to indicate that these aren’t my primary responsibilities, and if so, how? I don’t want to do anything unethical or dishonest.

    1. LSP*

      I think you can add a bullet under your current position that states: Trained as back-up for X position, whose duties include A, B and C.

      2. Jadelyn*

        That’s what I’ve used for positions where I’ve been a backup for something, seems to work pretty well.

    3. Chickaletta*

      Time also plays a factor, I think. If you were trained so long ago that you don’t remember most of it, or if your coworker’s job has evolved since you were trained, I wouldn’t include it. Ask yourself, if you were thrown into that role tomorrow, could you reasonably do it?

    4. Mr G*

      If you want to add punch: would it be possible for you review your back processes to make sure documentation is up to date, contact lists are current, etc.? And set this as an annual task. Then you could add to your resume something like “established annual review of backup for process X including documentation update and refesher training”. Everyone wins here. Your current employer has a better business continuity plan, you ensure you can actually act as backup, and you also turn a by-the-way entry in your resume into an accomplishment that shows initiative and your abilities.

    5. Moonsaults*

      Yes, indicate that you were not primarily responsible. If you just gloss over that part, you may have people expecting you to be able to master that section at some point.

      I think these things are better suited for a cover letter, as an example that you’re multi dimensional and available to assist others in that kind of capacity as back-up. It shows that you are trainable but at the same time, you aren’t saying you’re a highly skilled professional in that area.

      1. September Rain*

        Thanks all for the great advice. I absolutely don’t want to mislead anyone, but I wasn’t sure what the protocol for something like this is. Appreciate the help!

    6. migrant worker*

      have you used these skills? did they result in anything? i’m not a fan of the skills-based resumes – i like to see results. so if you can speak to that, that would strengthen your position, i think.

      1. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

        Perfect example – are you adding extra cheers or offering a martini? I’m so confused!

        LOL

        :)

          1. Formica Dinette*

            Both the martini and the slam dunk seem appropriate in this case. :D

            Congrats to Key!

    16. TootsNYC*

      Oh, c’mon! “That’s all”? Really?

      Don’t leave us hanging here!

      You have to come back, when you have a little more time, and tell us all about it!
      Is it a lot more money? Did you have to ask for the promotion? What do you think was the strongest thing you had going for you? What will be the biggest challenge?

      OK, seriously, you don’t have to.

      Good for you!

      1. Key to the West*

        Thanks everyone!

        I can’t say too much TootsNYC but it was a natural progression, always on the cards. It’s about at 33% increase in net pay.

  4. Jupe*

    We recently moved our open-space office around and the person I’m sitting next to now seems to do everything loudly. He eats loudly (all day, crunchy food), types loudly, bounces his squeaky chair to his music loudly, and his phone vibrates every 10 minutes with a new text. It’s driving me nuts. I wear headphones when I can, but it’s not always possible. The issue is that it’s not easy to speak to him directly about it because EVERYTHING he does is loud.
    My question is: can I ask to move without seeming petty, or do people have other suggestions?

    1. Paloma Pigeon*

      What about a white noise machine that blocks out low-level noise? It sounds like you are ‘tuned in’ to this person’s frequency and some white noise might block or mask the intensity of it, allowing you to focus.

      1. Jupe*

        No white noise machines allowed since it’s an open office plan :(
        You’re right that I’m particularly tuned into the noise though. I’ll work on ways to block it out.

          1. Jupe*

            Uh, a white noise machine would be something everyone in the room could hear, and noisy coworker makes various personal noises that mostly only I can hear. This doesn’t seem that complicated to me.

        2. Izzy*

          Old job got a pink noise generator for the whole office when we moved into an open plan space. Everyone could hear it, but it faded into the background (only mildly annoying) and masked the sound of others’ conversations. Except if they sat right next to one unfortunately.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Ug, open offices. The only way I’ve survived certain people is by knowing that my employment is contract based and I’ll almost certainly not be next to them on my next project. If your guy is a nice person, I think you can ask him to stop *some* of this stuff, but not everything (apologies from another loud typer)! I’d give it some time before asking to move, but assuming you can do it discretely (and come up with an excuse if someone asks) I don’t think it’s a big deal to ask. If your employer is anything like mine, though, don’t hold your breath – our facilities manager told me that she’s constantly getting requests to move and only complies if there’s a medical reason.

      1. LSP*

        I think you can ask him to put on headphones when he wants to listen to music, and a white noise machine may help with some of the food crunchiness and typing. As for his squeaky chair, just ninja over to his de4sk with some WD-40 and get to work. :)

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          I’ve never hesitated to ask people to turn music down (thankfully I’ve never worked with someone who tried to play music without headphones) or switch their phone to vibrate. The constant text vibrating thing is tough, but I think I’d feel okay bringing that up, too. Crunchy food and loud typing I would just try and deal with.

        2. Newby*

          My coworker did that to my chair. I didn’t really notice the squeakiness but it drove him nuts. Now we are both happy.

    5. afiendishthingy*

      I’d ask to move. Does a specific spot appeal to you/make sense for you to move to? I.e., can you phrase it as “I’d be more productive closer to the printer, plus I know Jane and Loud Guy collaborate a lot– would it be possible for Jane and me to switch desks?”

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think asking to move because you find him distracting sounds less petty than asking him to be quiet. (He sounds awful, but for some reason, allowing noisy people to be noisy seems to be the correct thing to do in many offices.)

    7. Merida May*

      If you added ‘pops gum in the afternoon’ to that list this could easily describe the person I sit next to. Personally, I’ve found these sounds seem to be more amplified when I’m hungry so if there’s something coworker is doing that is driving me up the wall I’ll grab a snack from my desk. Or if I’m really fixating on a particular sound I try to make that the time I make/return phone calls to focus on something else.

      1. Jupe*

        This is really good advice, thanks. I also notice it bothers me close to closing or close to lunch time. Ding Ding Ding!

      2. Stranger than fiction*

        I have a gum popping neighbor too! The same one that drags her feet and shuffles.

    9. Anonimity Jane*

      If his phone is sitting directly on his desk, you could ask him to put it on a book or notepad, which is softer, so the vibration isn’t as loud. I know when I left my phone just on my desk, it vibrated quite loudly.

      1. JustaTech*

        I’ve seen a tiny sheepskin-type rug sold as phone rest/silencer. Because it’s fuzzy it means that a phone makes *no* noise when it vibrates. It would only solve one thing, but you could offer it as a gift (taking the sting out of “you are so loud”).

        1. NacSacJack*

          This is good to know because I do have my phone on vibrate and we are moving to a more open office plan.

    10. designbot*

      It sounds like maybe until recently you all had more private spaces? It may be worthwhile to talk to your boss or HR about addressing etiquette in the open office generally. Please don’t use speakerphone, be more aware of noisy fidgeting, remember that everyone can both hear and smell each other’s food more than you used to, keep the communal areas clean etc. I bet you’re not the only one having this problem in one way or another, as it really is an adjustment when you move to an open office plan.

    11. TootsNYC*

      I think you could ask a manager about whether crunchy food can be banned at people’s desks.

  5. conflicted*

    I’ve been looking for a new job for the past couple months. I’m not miserable at my job, but I’m bored and my company doesn’t pay as well as others.

    Two senior positions have opened up in my department and while this position would be the next logical step up for me, I’m wondering if I should take it (it’s a promotion, so I’ve been told if I want one of the positions, it’s mine). My manager really wants me to take the senior position and several team members have told me they think I’d be great in the senior position. It’s not a job I’m super excited about and the pay raise is only about $200/month (after taxes). While that $200 a month would help a lot, the jobs I’m looking for outside my company pay significantly more (it’s be at least a $20K increase).

    On one hand, would I be burning bridges if I take the senior position and then accepted a new job outside the company in a few months? On the other hand, what if I don’t take the senior position and then still can’t find a new job a year from now and regret not taking the promotion/pay raise?

    1. KatieKate*

      Take the promotion. Bird in the hand, and all that. It might be a bridge burner, but you don’t have anything to burn it over yet, and you have no idea how long it will take to get a new job.

      1. conflicted*

        True. I guess I’m just thinking of the best/worst case scenario where, say, I take the promotion and then get a new job a month later. I know my manager and the department head would not be happy about that and I feel like that might ruin any future reference they’d give me later down the road.

        1. Adam V*

          You can always try the “this position fell in my lap and I couldn’t turn it down” wording if it happens that quickly.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Definitely go for it – my couple of months of job searching turned into a couple of years of job searching. You never know what’s going to happen. And I don’t think it would be a bridge burner necessarily, though that always depends.

      1. conflicted*

        That’s true. I’ve been interviewing and contacted by enough recruiters that I know interest is there (compared to the last time I job searched when it took two years to find my current position), but you’re right that I have no idea what will happen. Just because I’m getting bites doesn’t mean anything will come from it soon.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          Absolutely. I certainly hope your bites turn out more fruitful than my bites, but this is one of those “prepare for the worst” kinds of situations. Good luck!

            1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

              Thanks! I’ve been applying the What Would Dory Do approach: “Just keep swimming, just keep swimming!”

    3. Mona Lisa*

      Definitely take it. You don’t know how long it will take you to get a new position outside the company, and this new position with its associated skills might make you a more attractive candidate elsewhere.

      1. conflicted*

        Yeah, that’s one of the plus sides. I know the job duties will boost my resume and counter the aspects of the position I don’t like so much.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Take the position! Now!

      My coworker was in a similar situation recently. He got promoted and moved to another office, then handed in his two weeks’ notice because he got a much better job office. This is just how business goes.

      1. conflicted*

        Very good point. I think I’m still stuck on the “show loyalty to your employer” mantra that my parents/teachers/professors/etc. drilled into my heads growing up and need to get over my guilt and do what’s best for me. Because you’re totally right. That’s just how business goes, and I need to keep reminding myself of that. Thanks for the reminder!

    5. hbc*

      Take it. A reasonable manager will understand why you’re not sticking around when a five digit salary increase is in play. An unreasonable manager will find some reason to complain if you stay for 10 years.

    6. Observer*

      Take the job. If it’s a reasonable place, you won’t be burning bridges. If it’s not a reasonable place, it doesn’t make a difference what you do.

      It’s not just the extra couple of dollars in your pocket. It’s also your pay and promotion history. Pay history shouldn’t matter, but it does. And, getting a promotion shows that you are good at what you do.

      1. conflicted*

        That’s a good point. I guess now I’m wondering if it’ll come across weird if I list the senior position on my resume and keep applying. I mean, won’t it look strange if I apply to a different company right after I get a promotion? Or am I overthinking this?

        1. designbot*

          You’re overthinking it. If you list it like

          Teapots Unlimited
          2016-present: Senior Designer
          2012-2016: Designer

          Nobody will question the specifics of the timing too hard, and they’ll see upward movement, which is always a good thing.

          1. conflicted*

            Ah, that makes sense. My resume is structured as Month/Year for jobs, so I was thinking of it that way. Thanks for the advice!

      2. coffeepowerred*

        I agree with this point. I went up a couple of steps within a short period of time and I believe this reflects positively on my job history, not so much as job hopping but as accepting more responsibilities and succeeding at them

    7. Ghosted*

      I was in a similar position about a year ago and echo what some others are saying. My boss gave offered me a promotion I was ambivalent about because I was really thinking about career change, not interested in the job/field anymore and thought I’d be able to find another job in a matter of months. A friend convinced me to take the promotion to give me a better title and new duties and responsibilities to add to my resume (also more money) while still looking for a new position. A year later, I am still working on career change, but I am glad I took the promotion. In addition to the additional title and accomplishments I can add to my resume, I’ve been working on taking training and classes for the jobs and industry I want to work in to make me a better total candidate. I’m pretty sure I would have regretted not listening to my friend’s pep talk and not taking the promotion. It’s always great to tell a prospective employer that you were promoted at your current job. As for me, I think I am getting closer to that change I want. I have several interviews scheduled in the next couple weeks. I hope for the same for you, too, and very soon!

      1. conflicted*

        This was super helpful, thank you! This is exactly the position I’m in, so hearing from someone who’s also been there helped put things into perspective for me.

        I hope your interviews go well and you find what you’re looking for!

    8. Moonsaults*

      This is a good time to remember that it’s a business move to accept the promotion. You will move to that position that they’re essentially offering you and do well at it. Then when the time comes, be that in five months or five years, you will move on. They most likely won’t be upset about it.

      If you were gunning for a promotion and someone was pulling strings given your pushing for the jump, disregarding other applicants and such, then it may come back as a “Oh and then you left, wtf.” moment. Still even then, things happen and people get better chances, they need to take and move on to.

      1. conflicted*

        I honestly think the only one who would be “you got promoted and then you left wtf” is my manager, and that’s more because he’s said he thinks I’m one of the stronger people on the team and he’s advocated for me. There’s only one other person eligible for promotion, and they’re probably going to take the second spot, so it’s not really like they’re going out of their way to give it to me. If I don’t take it, it’ll probably go to an external candidate.

        But, with that said, I think you’re right and hopefully even my manager would realize that if a better chance came along, it’d be beneficial for me to take it.

        1. Renee*

          Sure, but isn’t it also beneficial for the company if you take it? You know the company and would require far less training. They’re not losing anything by promoting you and all it really does is put off what they are already prepared to do, which is hire someone from outside. I guess you could argue that they went through the effort of looking for someone and they’d have to do that again (assuming they’ve already advertised the position), but it seems like that’s still less effort than training someone entirely new to do the job.

    9. Melissa*

      Definitely take it, because that’s an (almost) guarantee, it sounds like. You can still keep your eye out. I don’t think it’s a huge bridge-burning move if you give appropriate notice, offer to interview/train a replacement if possible, etc. I mean, some people are petty and get mad whenever someone leaves their company, but that’s just business as usual and they kind of need to get over that.

  6. Nervous Accountant*

    Hey Alison, I emailed you on Monday but I didn’t get a reply. Is it safe to assume I can post on here now?

    1. Bigglesworth*

      If you should her an email asking her is she’s planning on posting your question, she’s usually really good at responding there to let you know.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Yes, maybe. She also used to answer my questions via email rather than post them, which was great, but that was a few years back. It has been a long time since I emailed. I’ll wait for the go ahead, if not I can wait til next week

    2. Hallway Feline*

      Same. Last time I emailed she linked me to other similar questions, but I haven’t heard either way this time around. I figured I’ll just wait a bit before following up.

  7. KatieKate*

    As part of my main job I help host a week-long convention. For the past two years, during convention time I did not take overtime (as comp time), even though I occasionally worked 20 hour days. I’m switching roles in the organization and with the new overtime law, I leaned that my replacement will be paid overtime for this convention piece.

    My question: is it worth doing the math to get my comp time that I missed out on, even though the organization is switching off of a com me system? I feel like I got screwed over.

    1. Mona Lisa*

      I feel like the ship has sailed on this one if you didn’t bring it up at the time. If the most recent even has happened in the past couple of months, you might be able to make a case for it (“Now that business has slowed down, I was wondering if it would be possible for me to take a day or two since I worked so much during the convention?”), but otherwise, I would use it as a way to inform your thinking moving forward.

      1. KatieKate*

        That’s what I was thinking too. I’m mostly (and incorrectly) upset that my replacement is going to get some mad overtime cash that I missed out on haha.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Let that “upset” fuel you to be your own best advocate in the future, and to not sign up voluntarily for “being taken advantage of.”

    2. Adam V*

      You could always mention it offhandedly – “oh, I didn’t realize that that role received comp time for those conventions. Is it too late to claim that now before I switch roles?” The worst they could do is say no. :)

    3. LCL*

      It’s worth doing the math, if you can do something with the calculations. Ask for comp time for the time you put in.

  8. The Cosmic Avenger*

    I did a thing!

    I created a survey on emoticons, because this is a very smart group, and I’m curious how many people actually support each position vs. how many comment about it. Have I mentioned that I <3 data?

    I turned on the setting "No IP addresses will be collected", so it is truly anonymous.

    I've also made the results public, so don’t put anything identifying in the “Other” fields if you care about your anonymity!

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Oh, and as I’m sure some of you will notice, the choices are randomized, which I hope will reduce bias.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Or, I think it can be: “I love this :).”
          Depending on where you want the emphasis to be.

    9. Adam V*

      For me, if I would use a period, I omit it:

      I hope you’re having a great day :)

      But if I’d use an exclamation mark, I put it at the end of the word:

      I hope you’re having a great day! :)

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Also, a lot would depend on what the sentence was before the emoji.

        Have a great weekend! :)
        That’s awesome news! :)
        I’ll bring by the TPS report when it’s done. :)
        I’ll bring by the TPS report when it’s done :)

        It looks to me like there’s something in the emoji when the period is after :). <– is that drool or a crumb?

    10. super anon*

      I wish there was an option for no 2 that said “there is no other acceptable way to punctuate with an emoji”, because the current “none of the above” answer doesn’t apply to me.

      1. super anon*

        wait – ignore me! it’s pre-coffee and i hadn’t read the second question properly.

        i wish we could delete comments on AAM… so i’d look a bit less foolish right now.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Dorkitude. Yet another new word. I feel educated because I have learned so many new and helpful words.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      This is fun, thanks for setting this up.
      I see the I don’t cares are winning for question 2. I guess most people primarily are concerned that they understand what is being said. I am happy to see that.

    14. alice*

      I’m surprised “emojis don’t belong in work emails” didn’t get picked more! I feel like a party-pooper.

    15. Isben Takes Tea*

      It depends completely on whether it’s in a text or an email–as an article I’ll link to points out, punctuation means significant things in texts (though I think the author goes overboard in extrapolating the trend towards all form of communication).

    16. Lily Evans*

      I’d also be curious to see how many people read an emoticon at the start of the sentence as meaning something slightly different than having it at the end of the sentence. To me the emoticon placement in “:) I hope you’re having a great day.” would mean that whatever you’d sent me made me smile, it’s a separate sentiment with “I hope you’re having a great day” as its own thought. “I hope you’re having a great day :)” the emoticon at the end here would just be me either wanting to soften the message or feeling weird about not using any punctuation. Weirdly, the only punctuation I ever use in conjunction with emoticons are exclamation points, because I just want to emphasize how excited I am! :D

      (Also, trying to explain these subtle nuances in words was really difficult.)

      1. lemonack*

        I 100% read it the way you’ve described! The specific placement of emoji tells me what’s being highlighted or responded to.

    17. Lily Rowan*

      I took the survey, and now realize I lied! I said I would use the emoticon as the punctuation, but I just wrote an email where I definitely didn’t do that, even though the punctuation was a period.

      So you can shift one answer over….

    18. Jasmine*

      Yay, a survey! Almost as good as a Buzzfeed quiz. But does nobody else like their emoticon people to have noses? :-)

        1. a*

          At first that reads to me as a tiny little surprised face with a random paren after it. But it’s cute after my perception adjusts.

    20. Drew*

      My heavy metal loving friends tell me there’s only one appropriate emoticon response:

      \m/. .\m/

  9. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    I’m a finalist for a yearlong mat leave position that’s intended to start the second week in September. I interviewed last Monday, they told me they wanted to have a decision by (last) Friday–which clearly did not happen as they didn’t start trying to get in touch with references until Thursday. My references told me they received a (fairly long) email questionnaire, and they were all returned by (this) Tuesday morning. I’ve been trying to consider that they’re on Employer Time, and have other things to do besides decide this, but I’m really, really, really hoping to hear back soon! Especially considering there’s a more-urgent-than-usual time frame in place, here. It’s everything I can do not to jump out of my skin every time the phone rings.

    4. EmmaLou*

      I so started reading this wrong… I read it as “She’s having to compete to get to take a year’s maternity leave with someone else who is pregnant?! Only one of them gets the year and the other has the 12 weeks… that’s– Oh. That’s not what we’re talking about.” Carry on. I hope you get it.

  10. Venting anonymously*

    I’m reaching BEC mode with one of my coworkers now. I posted a few weeks back (under another nick). Things did get better bc we were out for a few days on separate vacations, and that seemed to have helped; I was less irked etc. And it ramped up this week. Im sure the problem i s with me–I find myself irrationally upset at the smelly food and screen staring and constantly getting cold (I run hot, they run cold).
    There are so many things I’d like to share on here, but I rarely type anymore because I feel like he’ll be watching. I can’t move my screens any further in.
    I’ve stopped online shopping bc the second thre’s a woman o my screen he turns his head to look.

    In other news–creepy coworker (CC) just moved over to our side and no one in our section was happy about it. Majority of the people here find him creepy and weird.

    I sit by teh wall where no one can see my screen; at first it was nice, until I realzied my productivity suffered; I would love to move towards the middle, but we’re moving to a new office in a few monthsso I don’t want to make any waves on that yet.

    I’m feeling apprehensive because of the move, what if I’m stuck with sitting near them again? I was told that we can’t request, they decide on their own; yet both of these cw specifically requested to sit next to me. I think my frustration is due to proximity, sitting next to the same person for months and months is getting to me. I’ve given up on company ever doing anything about CC.

    I hate feeling like this; I’m not always this prickly, but every time I’m moved, they put the CW next to me (also, no one likes CC). He (CW, not CC) is a genuinely nice person and we’ve got along in the past.

    I have no intention of bringing this up to anyone, and I tell myself, “cross that bridge when you get there”. so I guess this is mostly to vent, and see if there’s any ways to cope. I hate being so crabby and I swear I’m not a prickly person. I just want to tough this out.

    1. Violetta*

      Can you get one of those privacy covers for your screen? They make it so people can’t see your screen from an angle, you have to be right in front of it. Not super expensive and it might give you some peace of mind.

    2. Purest Green*

      I don’t think I fully understand the situation here but…

      I’ve stopped online shopping bc the second thre’s a woman o my screen he turns his head to look.

      …WHAT?! That’s bananas. I second the screen filter suggestion.

      1. literateliz*

        I was a little alarmed to read that “creepy coworker” in the next sentence was a completely different person. There’s someone even creepier?!

    3. animaniactoo*

      Actually, I think you’ve got a very valid thing here – why does cw’s desire to sit next to you outweigh YOUR desire not to sit next to them? Why do they get to request and you don’t? I would seriously consider making an issue over this and discussing how it’s affecting your overall morale and work product to be dealing with it and never getting a break from it despite multiple moves where you could sit next to someone else.

      1. Mabel*

        I agree. Even though management has said they’re not taking requests, some people have made them, and it would suck if there was some leeway in the seating arrangements, and they felt like they could grant these requests. It might be a good idea to make sure they know that you DON’T want to sit near these clowns. If I were managing the move, and someone asked NOT to sit next to someone else, I’d take that more seriously than someone just preferring to sit near you.

      2. Myrin*

        Yeah, I don’t really get that, to the point where I feel I must be missing something – OP writes “I was told that we can’t request, they decide on their own” with “they” being the coworkers – who are, in fact, requesting. Are they in a different position from yours which allows them to make these decisions whereas you can just sit there and take it? Or is this just random? Because if so, um, why is this even a thing where some people get to have a choice and others in the very same position don’t?

        1. Myrin*

          Aaah, seems like Mabel cleared up the confusion I was facing – “they” refers to management, not the coworkers. But in any case, I agree with the comments above me.

      3. Venting anonymously*

        The first move was random, and I had no issue with it. We got along fabulously. CW was then moved, and the person he sat next to was very loud so he requested a move. Still had no issue. My irritation began a few weeks ago and it’s gone away, but sometimes it’ resurfaces. Like right now.

        The CW, he moved bc there was a n empty seat here and mgmt had requested that he vacate his seat for a new hire coming in. Originally they were going to put him in a seperate room but he refused.

        1. animaniactoo*

          He refused???? He got to refuse???? Geez.

          I would still seriously request re-assignment just stating that you’re very uncomfortable in CC’s presence. Hey, if CW can request re-assignment because new co-worker was too loud, this is just a valid a reason. As for CW and BEC, did you end up asking him to stop looking over your shoulder?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Wait. I don’t get this. Why is CC and CW allowed to request to sit next to you and yet no one is allowed to request where they sit?

      Coping. Gather up several ideas. If one idea is not working today, then quickly shift to another idea. These are all things I have told myself at one time or another:

      a) CC has a right to earn a living just like me. CC has to eat and have a roof over their head just like me.
      b) Boy CC is sure lucky today, today is his free pass day. I am giving CC a free pass on what ever stupid thing CC comes up with today.
      c) CC does all this stuff, phew, it’s quite a list. I am lucky that I do not have all those problems. Later on in life, it will pay off for me that I do not have problems like that.
      d) CC does not exist in a vacuum. Maybe my real concern is that management does not manage?
      e)All these people complaining to me about CC do not help my attitude. Maybe if I just don’t listen to the complaints today, then today will be a tiny bit easier?
      f) I am not going to let CC wear me down so that I am LESS of an employee. I will continue to be “super employee” no matter what silly thing CC does.
      g)Any place a person works there is at least one person that no one wants to be around and everyone thinks that person is weird. (may or may not be true, but I told myself this anyway.)
      h) Gee, I set goals for myself today. How am I doing on my goals? Have I let CC chew up too much of my time/brain space? Am I falling behind on the goals I set for myself?

      No one thing works that is why you need a number of things. Try not to get too involved in analyzing yourself. I see the comment about not being able working next to the same person for long periods of time. This can be, and usually IS, over thinking a problem. At best it is not productive, it does not help you cope in the moment. At worst it is kind of putting yourself down. I am sure that if you worked with decent people this thought would not have occurred to you. If you must analyze yourself, my suggestion is to insist on analyzing WITH solutions as your goal. If an idea about yourself does not move you toward a solution, then toss the idea away and find the next idea.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        PS: Try to get some extra sleep. When problems start to wear me down I find that some extra shut eye allows me to be a little more patient the next day.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          I have been having issues with sleep lately. I find myself extra drowsy mroe so than usual this month :(

    5. Marisol*

      This might sound too new-agey for you (I live in L.A. where nothing is too new agey) but EFT tapping is like vitamin C for emotional distress. You tap on acupressure points while describing what bothers you. You can find specific instructions by googling “EFT tapping.” If you try it for a few days I can almost guarantee you’ll find him less annoying.

    6. TootsNYC*

      “yet both of these cw specifically requested to sit next to me. I think my frustration is due to proximity, sitting next to the same person for months and months is getting to me”

      Then quietly go and request that they NOT sit next to you, and cite the idea that you would like some variety.

  11. Mona Lisa*

    I’ve been waiting since Wednesday evening for this! Is there any way to politely turn down being a reference for someone after they’ve already given your name to the checker?

    Three years ago I worked in a university department of 4 people. I was the assistant to a coordinator (Jane), an admissions/marketing person (Fergus), and a director (Wilma). Jane and Fergus both offered to be additional professional references for me when I was relocating out of state, and I told them they could reach out to me as well if they ever needed anything. Since then, Fergus has used me as a reference twice. The second time I felt especially unqualified to talk to the manager because they kept asking me about his marketing experience, which I obviously didn’t supervise as a department assistant.

    Wednesday evening I got an e-mail from Fergus to let me know that he was applying for a new job and wanted me to serve as a reference, particularly addressing his skills and accomplishments with X, Y, and Z. I have no experience working with him on any of those initiatives beyond knowing that they did happen and him subsequently teaching me how to use a new system. However, I can’t speak to the success those and how they affected our applications/enrollment. I was planning to e-mail him back and suggest that he use Wilma or one of his supervisors from another job, but I received an e-mail from the reference checker not 2 hours later asking to set up a time with me.

    I feel incredibly rude for not responding within a business day, but I have no idea what I will say to this woman on the phone call. Should I go through with it and just be honest? Should I ghost (not my preferred option)? Should I tell them I’m too busy right now? And– finally –should I let Fergus know that I don’t think I’m the best contact for this in the future? I get the sense that he and Wilma might not have parted on the best of terms, but I feel like my reference is not helpful since I can’t do anything other than verify that he did the things he said.

    1. Sadsack*

      Yes, tell Fergus you don’t feel you can give a proper reference for him. Maybe should then ask how he would like you should handle the reference call you received. In the future, he probably should alert you about the need for reference and the details if the job before offering you as a reference. Don’t feel bad about it. If he wants a good and accurate reference, he’ll understand.

    2. BackintheSunshine*

      I’ve faced this situation and told the reference checker I wasn’t the right person to ask about skills/accomplishments as I didn’t supervise Fergus. I then asked Fergus to not use me as a supervisor reference.

      IF applicable, I would offer to be a peer reference .

      Good Luck!

    3. Jadelyn*

      I’d respond to the reference person to say “I don’t think I’m in a position to give a solid reference for Fergus, as we didn’t really work together much, so there’s not much I could tell you.” And then let Fergus know that you declined to be a reference, and to please not use you as a reference in the future.

    4. animaniactoo*

      I would reach out to Fergus and let him know that you can only be a “personality” or “general work product” reference for him, not a specific skills as you don’t have enough info to evaluate that situation.

      I would answer the reference checker back and let them know that you are available to answer general personality and work product questions, and just leave it there. If they start to ask more detailed questions, simply answer “I’m sorry, but I wasn’t in a position to be aware of that. I can only tell you that the company seemed to be happy with his work at the time.”

      1. Mona Lisa*

        So I should send two e-mails it sounds like? One to Fergus that looks like:

        “I would be happy to talk to Company X for you. Given the nature of our work together at Super Academic U, I don’t think that I could directly speak to all of the skills you mentioned. I could confirm that you participated in those projects and serve as a personal reference, but I don’t feel like I was in a position to discuss all of your achievements.”

        And one to the company that says:

        “I would be happy to talk with you about Fergus at X time. However, since I was not in a supervisor role over Fergus, I would only be able to confirm that he participated in certain projects and offer a character reference. Please let me know if you would like to schedule a call for the aforemetioned date.”

        Would those be acceptable?

        1. animaniactoo*

          Those sound generally good, although on the 2nd I would phrase that to say that you were not his supervisor and did not work with him closely enough on many things to be able to do more than confirm that he participated in….

          The reason for that is that frequently co-workers or assistants really do have in-depth knowledge of stuff, so here the issue is that you just didn’t work closely enough to evaluate the work itself.

    5. TootsNYC*

      do your original plans: Give Fergus your decline first, and then tell the reference checker the truth: that you can’t speak to Fergus’ skills or experience with that.
      You CAN speak to what it was like to work FOR Fergus, and how he was regarded by others in the department. Give that reference honestly. It has value.

      And if the reference checker thinks it was weird of Fergus to give your name as a reference for something you have no knowledge of–well, it was. And the truth is always useful.

    6. stevenz*

      You should go through it and say what you said here – that you’re not qualified to speak about his qualifications for those kinds of jobs and let them take it from there. It may not be so awkward to talk to Fergus about the areas you can’t speak to, maybe in the sense that you can be very positive about A, B, and C, but he’s best finding someone else to speak to X,Y, and Z. It’s softened that way.

  12. Jane Lane*

    Question about applying to an ad agency….

    Several years ago, I started my career at an ad/PR agency. I worked as an Accoount Manager in the PR department. I stayed for several years before moving on to a more lucrative/corporate job. I left on great terms.

    Ive been at the corporation now for several years in a variety of communication roles. Recently, my old agency posted a position (Senior Account Manager), which I applied for earlier this week. Its in the Client Services area, not PR.

    Im thinking of reaching out to my former boss in the PR dept, letting her know that ive applied and would like to learn more about the clients this position would be serving. Should i do it?

  13. Mimmy*

    Keeping old employment records – yes or no?

    I’m in the process of purging old files, and came across a lot of old employment-related items, such as raise/bonus info from one employer, employment and internship performance evaluations, and miscellaneous letters. I was just wondering if it’s normal to keep old employment documents. I don’t know if it’s nostalgia or just wanting to compare current performance with past performance.

    I will admit that seeing my internship evaluations is bittersweet since I had dead set on being a social worker at the time.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I can’t imagine that you would ever need them, but if they don’t take up much space why not stick them in a folder for awhile? I also like going back to read stuff like that.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I used to do this–I had a box of all sorts fo keepsakes from when I was a kid, and in college. Every now and then, I’d get on a big decluttering binge and go through it.
        If I’d forgotten what it was from, or if I decided the memory wasn’t that powerful or necessary to me, I’d toss it. But I’d always keep most of it, and it was a really nice way to stay connected to the younger “me.”

        Right now, I’m feeling really adrift, cut off from who I was when I was 22, and 16, and 35, etc. I could really use one of those sorts of “memory vaults.”

        I liked that it was disorganized and just all piled in one box.

    2. OwnedByTheCat*

      If you want to keep them for every reason, consider scanning them and storing them digitally? I can’t think of needing them, but you never know.

      2. squids*

        Eh. It saves on space for now, but you’re more likely to need these a long time from now (any retirement or pension eligibility questions) rather than in the near future, and the longer they’re kept digitally the less likely you’ll be able to read them.
        Scanning’s great for manuals, warranties, etc, but if they’ve got any long term value they’re worth keeping on paper. It’s much more reliable.
        I would keep all start/end dates and rates of pay; performance evaluations only if you want to look back on them happily.

        1. Ife*

          Yes, plus, hard drives fail. And even if you back up the files, you still need to remember (a) to run the backups, and (b) that you actually have a backup of that file in the first place, and (c) where the backup is (external hard drive? my laptop? cloud service? And wherever it is, which folder, and what was the file name?). For a business where it’s somebody’s job to do these things, it makes sense. For managing personal records at home, paper makes more sense (most of the time, for most people). And I say this as a programmer.

    3. Sadsack*

      You might want to check out the federal guidelines for records retention, if you are in the U.S.

    4. Jadelyn*

      Depends on what they are – there’s a lot of legal requirements around which kinds of documents have to be kept and for how long. We play it safe at my org – employee files over 3 years old go to our deep storage vendor and are set for a 10-year destruction date. Anything relating to any legal cases, workers comp, anything like that is kept indefinitely, but after a few years is also sent to deep storage.

      I would hold on to the raise/bonus stuff since that’s payroll history info, unless you’re completely purging those people’s files, but the performance evals and letters I’d probably go ahead and dispose of appropriately.

      1. Ife*

        It sounds like these are Mimmy’s own personal files, not a company’s records. Do those laws still apply in that case? Either way, I would think that she wouldn’t need to keep the bonus/raise information, since that should already be included with her taxes she filed that year.

        I have tried to keep a few performance reviews so that I remember what my managers thought my strengths were, and because they sometimes reference interesting projects I did. But, despite trying to keep them, I think they are all lost now. I also held onto a lot of the benefits paperwork from Old Job, at first because I wasn’t sure if I would need it for contact info or something, and now because I am lazy.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Oh, I misunderstood – I’ve been doing EE file purging at work so that’s where my brain is at, lol. If those are personal records, no – it’s the employer that’s legally required to hold on to certain things.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, I need to do this. My goal is to have my entire file system organized by the end of the year.

      I once organized 32 five-drawer file cabinets full of environmental testing documents for an old employer. I can do this!

      1. Ife*

        I love filing, I would help you! :) When we moved in together, my fiance gave me his Unorganized Box of Old Bills, and let me add them to my filing cabinet. It was glorious. So much organizing. So much filing.

        1. Elle*

          My sister is a professional organizer! She gets paid to go into people’s homes and organize rooms, closets, files, etc. I keep begging her to come to my house, but she lives four hours away.

    6. Library Director*

      We’re in the process of cleaning out Mesozoic Era records. The info that I’ve found is from the EEOC that says employers should keep all employment records for at least one year from the employee’s date of termination. The federal age-bias law requires that you retain payroll records for three years. Employment applications should be kept for one year. There is language, however, that indicates if you are aware the applicant is over age 40, you should retain it for as long as two years.

      Here’s a nice breakdown that I’ve found helpful:
      http://www.hrbenefitsalert.com/benefits-recordkeeping-what-to-keep-for-how-long/

    7. Not So NewReader*

      If you think you might need to refer to the papers for a job interview or application, then keep them. Oddly, it might work out that you ditch some papers from a job and keep other papers from a job. It depends on what the paper is.

      I feel pretty safe throwing out anything from 15 years ago. There are a few things from 10 years ago, that can go also. For the most part I keep the stuff that pertains to the last ten years of my life.
      This is funny- I have no record of jobs from 30 years ago when I started working. I’d really be hard pressed to figure it out if I had to. You might want to collect dates and names on one sheet of paper and put that in your fire safe or other safe place.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I second the paper with names and dates. I had to do this for an intern application with a law enforcement agency–boy, did I have a time running around trying to locate all my address information! Now it’s on one sheet that lives in my computer jobs folder, just in case (and gets backed up frequently).

    8. Marisol*

      Most people keep things they don’t really need to keep. If you ask yourself, “in what context would I *need* to use this document?” and can’t think of a reason, then pitch it. For example, while you might want to document your salary to prove to your next employer that you really did make what you said you made, a raise/bonus letter wouldn’t be necessary to do this, because you have your tax records. The bittersweet stuff doesn’t sound bittersweet to me. It sounds like it makes you sad, and should therefore be jettisoned. If you really want to keep various letters for sentimental reasons, then scrapbook the nicer/prettier docs, or file it in clear document covers in a binder and keep it with your photo albums. Anything with personal info should be shredded. If you have a big bag of stuff to shred and don’t want to do it yourself, office supply stores will often shred for you for a small fee. Karen Kingston wrote an excellent book called “clear your clutter with feng shui” that provides good motivation to clear stuff out; and there’s a new book called…something like, “the life-changing magic of cleaning up” that gets a lot of good press.

    9. TootsNYC*

      do you have a way to keep the dates? In case you ever apply for a job w/ stringent requirements for dates (like, a security clearance, or something)?

      I’m going to be totally screwed if I ever need that.

    10. Lizabeth*

      The only thing I hang onto is the application for a security clearance way back when just in case since they require precise dates etc…

    11. Yetanotherjennifer*

      I would keep them but condense as much as possible. I find that it’s helpful to go through my old records when I’m job hunting; especially when I’m changing careers or industries. My memory isn’t great so my old resumes and status reports help me remember what I’ve done. Plus, going back to work after 10 years as a SAHM it was nice to be reminded of all that I am capable of doing.

    12. Mimmy*

      Thanks everyone for the input! And yes, these are for my personal files at home. Sorry it wasn’t clear.

  14. Vanesa*

    How do I draw the line when my boss asks me to come in on my day off? I work at an office with M-F 8 to 5ish schedule. Our busy time is Jan – Apr (I bet you can guess what I do haha), and during those times we are on mandatory 55 hour weeks with Sundays off. I’ve been asked to come in a few times on Sundays to meet some deadlines and I have always agreed. I have something due Monday and my manager asked me to come in tomorrow to review it as he is out on business meetings today and we close the office on noon on Fridays. I agreed to come in tomorrow morning and I don’t have a problem with it.

    The problem is my coworkers tell me that I need to say that I can’t come in sometimes otherwise they will take advantage of me and I will never be able to say no. So, I’m not really sure what to do as every time they’ve asked me to come in I was okay with it as I had nothing going on, but I do expect that sometimes I will have something going on. It isn’t very common and this weekend is only the 4th time and each of those times has only been for about 2-3 hours.

    1. Dawn*

      Honestly, if you are OK with this and absolutely feel empowered to say “No, sorry, I have unbreakable plans” if you need to… keep doing it. And obviously only if you feel like you’re fairly compensated for doing so!

      I think the rub is when employers *expect* everyone to be available or take advantage of employees. In this case, seems like you’re not being taken advantage of at all and you feel like you could say no if you wanted/needed to.

      1. Vanesa*

        I’ve been okay with it every time and it’s only been 4 times this year that I’ve been asked to come in on my days off. I don’t know how they would react if I say no especially if there is a deadline that has to get done. I feel like it’s my job and responsibility to get it done.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      hey fellow busy season person (that time period that shall not be named) :)

      I’m sure others will have better advice, but I would draw the line if it becomes too frequent or is disrupting your life. Are you allowed to be flexible with the time? Or maybe review things via email/phone rather than come in?

      1. Vanesa*

        This has been the only time he asked me to come in to review something and only because the deadline is Monday. He wanted to go over it together since it was my first time doing it. Most of the time I don’t need to be here for review.

        Luckily his 9am meeting was cancelled and we finished it so I won’t have to come in tomorrow after all

        1. AthenaC*

          For me, it goes a long way if the person asking me to do something like this is themselves willing to put in necessary time and effort when they need to. If we’re all working hard and coming in this Saturday is my piece of working hard this time, so be it. But I’ve (mostly) been fortunate to see the people above me working just as hard and for just as many hours (if not more), so I’ve never felt taken advantage of.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It’s totally up to you whether you want to work those hours. If you really don’t care, then just keep saying yes! If you want to hedge your bets, I’d say maybe say something along the lines of “Let me check my calendar and get back to you in 5 minutes/an hour/tomorrow”, depending on the nature and timeliness of the request.

      1. Vanesa*

        Thank you! It’s just I’ve never had a problem with it and all times it’s been my deadline for one the clients I work on so I feel like it’s my responsibility. Not to mention, I know they are very flexible and you can leave early another day if you come in your day off.

        1. TootsNYC*

          see, that right there would have me saying “Sure!” without a second thought.

          I’m w/ you. If my boss and employer are going to be flexible and “real” with me, then I’m going to be flexible and “real” right back at them.

          It’s only 4x a year, and there’s a really clear reason (not just “oh, I couldn’t get it done in time” or some other idiotic thing).

          You’re earning big points, I think.

          Trust your own instincts; they seem really sound.

          1. AthenaC*

            “I’m w/ you. If my boss and employer are going to be flexible and “real” with me, then I’m going to be flexible and “real” right back at them.”

            +1

    4. Collie*

      Agreeing with Dawn, but also want to add that when you said “I bet you can guess what I do,” my first thought was working with Girl Scouts, because that’s cookie season! I guess I’m optimistic. I quickly realized it was probably more to do with taxes. Dun-dun-dunnnnnn. Girl Scout cookies > Taxes.

      2. Mona Lisa*

        As someone who has worked with that organization, I can assure you that Girl Scout cookie time is incredibly stressful and not much fun! (The bonus is cookies.)

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        PS, say yes enough times and they’ll always come to you first because they know it means not having to ask anyone else!

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          Ugh, this is so true.

          When I started my role, I said yes to EVERYTHING but that’s because all the requests my boss was making were perfectly reasonable (attend X event to learn more, meet with X person to talk about his career, etc.). I enjoyed those things and really benefited from them.

          But then I got accepted into a night program for grad school. When I told my boss that I’d be unavailable ONE night per week, she flipped out! That, combined with her tendency to email/text at all hours, has made me withdraw a lot. I no longer answer emails or texts when I’m “off the clock” and I don’t say yes to everything.

          Sometimes you have to train or re-train them. It’s annoying!

          1. Drew*

            Your story proves that the boss was doubly stupid in her reaction: for not recognizing that it’s to her benefit to have an employee who is doing something that could easily end up being to the office’s benefit down the road, and for not recognizing that flipping out the first time the employee set a boundary was going to lead to lots more boundaries in a hurry.

            I have occasionally had to explain to bosses that my willingness to put in Saturdays in the spring and summer doesn’t mean I lose my right to say “no” in the fall, because college football is one of the things I’m passionate about: it’s bonding time with my parents, it’s a pretty significant financial outlay, and I can give a precise schedule months ahead of time if it’s necessary. Became a big deal last fall when they set up a major event without consulting me on the date, so that I had to tell them I wasn’t free that day — and it was an event where I was expected to have a major role. Fortunately, we got the date shifted, and I had a couple of serious conversations with management about not scheduling critical employees for off-day events without consulting them FIRST. Just because you think something I’m doing in my own time is trivial doesn’t mean I have to honor your opinion or your priorities.

        2. animaniactoo*

          this and this

          It’s good to be on the alert for it, BUT if your co-workers are advising you to look out for it, it might be worth pushing back on one of the next requests you get to see what reaction you get.

          People react much harder the first time boundaries are drawn if they are disrupting a long-established pattern. Sometimes with long-term consequences in a way that just wouldn’t exist if the pattern was not allowed to establish in the first place.

        3. Vanesa*

          Well, it’s a little different in that we each have our own workload so they only ask me to come in to meet a deadline for a client I am working on. If there is a deadline for a client I’m not working on then they ask whoever is working on to come in. But it really isn’t very often (well I don’t think 4 times since January is too often) and only about 2-3 hours each time so I don’t see it as a big deal. Well, I kind of try to keep those days open to come in to work because I know of the deadline. I just see it as part of the job.

          What would be a good way to say no I can’t come in. I just feel like if there is a deadline for a client I’m working on it’s my responsibility to get it done. Not to mention, they are pretty flexible here and no one really watches your hours. For example, say I was busy tomorrow what would I say?

          P.S. My boss’s 9am meeting was cancelled so I don’t have to come in tomorrow after all.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            “Gee, Boss, I really can’t make it Saturday at 9. I am willing to come in Friday or Sunday, would you be able to consider another day?”

            Just offer another time slot or show openness to picking another day.

            I think the issue here is that your coworkers see this as a bfd and you don’t. So for you to push back is not making sense to you and leaves you feeling a bit uncomfortable.

            I think take the bull by the horns: “Boss, you know, I have been very lucky to be able to come in on these odd days. But it could be that some day I have a car appointment or other unavoidable activity. How would you like me to handle it if I genuinely cannot come in during off hours?”

            1. Vanesa*

              Yes, that makes perfect sense! I was just thinking that if I either have to come in when they tell me or not come in on the weekend at all. I think suggesting another time makes perfect sense.

              I think taking the bull by the horn would make sense if the requests were more frequent, but this is the first time they’ve asked since April and during April they asked 3 times and all were times when the deadline was coming up. I guess I will see how this time goes and see if they become more frequent. Because we are busy until October 17 and then busy season starts again January to April.

          2. TootsNYC*

            “For example, say I was busy tomorrow what would I say?”

            “Oh, shoot, I can’t–how else can you get what you need?”
            Never be specific.
            Express regret and sympathy, then go straight from the “can’t” to some other topic, like “how else will YOU…” (bonus points i fyou put it back on them)
            Or, if you can, offer something else that IS reasonable: “I could stay a little later…” or “You can email me tonight, but I won’t be available at all on Sunday”

            And then end the conversation as soon as possible. “I’m sure you’ll work something out.”

            You might try having one Sunday that you DO make plans–if only because that’s valuable recharge/restock time. It’s not just doing your laundry–it’s finding some small pieces of joy and contentment.

        4. Vanesa*

          Oh I forgot to mention that this time was kind of my fault because I finished on 8/16 for initial review and then I don’t know why I had it in my head that was due on 8/31 so I didn’t follow up until yesterday around 530 after my boss had already left for the day.

          1. animaniactoo*

            On a time when it’s not something that you have to correct because of your own missteps, you would just say “Unfortunately I don’t have the time free tomorrow (morning).” and maybe offer an hour earlier start on Monday.

            Honestly though, from what you’ve described, I would say that it sounds like they’re being pretty reasonable about how often they ask – and the one thing I would be careful of is looking to see if deadlines are tight because they’re overpromising. I worked for a company like that – the clients had unbreakable deadlines and I always felt a responsibility to the clients to get them what they needed by their deadline. If you see your company moving in that kind of direction *at all*, you might need to evaluate whether the only way to say no to your employer without guilt is to say no to the entire job and move on. It doesn’t sound like you’re in that space, so this is just really saying – watch out for it.

            Also, even though it’s your client – is it really true that somebody else couldn’t come in, look at it, and complete the final steps needed? Evaluate that. Just because it’s your client, doesn’t necessarily mean that the responsibility for meeting the deadline has to be yours first to last. What would the company do if you weren’t available to come in? If you were on vacation and couldn’t be reached?

            1. Vanesa*

              Yeah….I think you’re right that offering other times makes sense. I guess I’m just seeing from what my coworkers are telling me that I shouldn’t have to come on my days off at all but I see it more as it’s responsibility. I will take into consideration and keep in mind if they are over-promising, but for the most part I don’t think they are.

              Although, we do have some crunches at times because the clients will bring the information a few days before the deadline and we might have to stay a little later to get things done. That does bother me a bit because I feel the bosses should set deadlines with clients and not make promises to get things done if they bring the information a few days before it’s due, but I feel like it’s the nature of the job.

              This is my first year in this industry too by the way.

              1. TootsNYC*

                “This is my first year in this industry too by the way.”

                I think you are so smart to be willing to question both your own assumptions (“this is reasonable”; “this is part of the industry”; “it’s my responsibility”) AND your colleagues’ assumptions.

                That’s a nice set of open eyes.
                You’ll be in a position to see where the balance should be. Just be sure to factor in the idea that rejuvenation is powerful (take that Sunday break!), that extra effort should be rewarded and compensated for (do you get return flexilbility and consideration), and that badly organized things shouldn’t be excused (that idea of “make the clients bring things earlier; don’t make promises to late clients that aren’t fair for the workers who have to meet them”).

              2. AthenaC*

                If I could chime in, based on my 8.5 years in public accounting, there are several things that drive when you have to work off hours:

                – your own work ethic. In my opinion, it is good to be willing to do what it takes to get the job done on time. It’s just what we do from time to time. The fact that your coworkers apparently won’t ever do it is a poor reflection on them, in my opinion. (Again, my opinion is public-accounting specific.) A good manager, upon being told no, will do it themselves, because overflow has nowhere to go but up. I would bet that your managers / partners think more highly of you than your coworkers simply because they know they can rely on you. Now, it’s possible your coworkers are right about you being taken advantage of, but from what you say I don’t think that’s the case.
                – your clients. You’re right that some clients don’t give you what you need until a few days before the deadline. Some clients can be managed, some can’t. That’s just how it is.
                – your managers / partners. Sometimes they get busy and don’t review your work until way later than they should. Some managers / partners can be managed out of this, some can’t.

                Overall, it sounds like you are doing what is normally expected of us from time to time; unless I’m missing something, it’s your coworkers who are probably not doing what they should be doing.

                1. Vanesa*

                  Thanks so much for your help Athena and everyone else.

                  I definitely agree and think some of it is just the nature of the job. I don’t think they are taking advantage of me.

    6. my two cents*

      It sorta sounds like your coworkers may be nervous that they’ll also start getting more weekend requests, since you’ve been so available and able to work ’em.

      The next time it comes up and you have something within the next month, you could mention it to signal that you won’t ALWAYS be able to do this. “Oh sure, this weekend is no problem at all. I do have a (wedding, trip, whatever) on (weekend in the future), but I can pop in tomorrow to finish this – no problem.”

      1. Vanesa*

        Well the thing is we each have our own clients and assignments so if it’s one of my assignments they ask me otherwise they will ask my coworker.

        I like the idea of saying if I have things coming up in a few months, but the thing that it has only happened 4 times this year so I just don’t see it as a big issue. Not to mention each time has been true deadline.

    7. Coolb*

      Wait, you are generally okay with it given the nature of the business but your co-workers are telling you to set limits so you don’t get taken advantage of? Um, no. Sounds like they don’t want you to show them up as more reliable in a pinch or something. If you truly have other plans, just say so politely and suggest the next best alternative for getting the work done timely. Otherwise, ignore know it all co-workers.

      1. Vanesa*

        What would be a good alternative? I just feel like if I was busy tomorrow I would still suggest coming in Sunday or maybe early on Monday since this particular assignment still had to be sent to the client and then sent to the state by Monday!

        1. misspiggy*

          Doing it from home, using Skype etc if necessary. And making sure you get time off in lieu or other compensation.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I think it is fine to suggest an alternative date and time.

          But, don’t push back just for the sake of pushing back or proving something to your coworkers.

          While you are asking about what to say to your boss, maybe the real question is what to say to your coworkers. I think I would go with, “Thanks. I will keep that in mind as I go along”, then change the subject when they mention management taking advantage of you.

          1. Vanesa*

            Thank you! Yes, that is what I try to tell my coworkers and just change the subject. Like you said, I don’t see it as a big deal but I guess they do.

    8. Stranger than fiction*

      Depending on state I believe there are laws how many days in a row a person can work.

  15. orchidsandtea*

    When do you start leaving awards and accomplishments off your resume?

    For instance, I was a National Merit Finalist (top 1% in state) and on the Dean’s List in college, but that no longer feels terribly relevant — I’m 26. But I can’t decide whether to include or leave off the national writing contest I won that same year. On the one hand, national writing contest. On the other hand, high school, and fiction.

    How do you decide?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Unless the job you were applying for had something to do with writing, I’d leave it all off. You are closing in on a decade post high school. Drop it.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Take all the stuff from HS off, I think. You’re also at the point where stuff like Deans List in college should start coming off, but that depends a little more on how much employment history you have.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Unless you’re a writer, I would take that stuff off. Even then it’s iffy.

      I was extremely proud of my headline-writing awards. But the last one was in 2008. And it’s not relevant to the work I do now, nor all that impressive anymore. They’re gone.

    4. Mona Lisa*

      If the writing competition is particularly relevant to the position for which you’re applying, I can maaaaaybe see leaving it on, but otherwise, I think it’s time to let the high school and college awards go. I recently revamped my resume and realized that I have many more professional accomplishments that would probably be better to highlight than what I did in college.

    5. Thyme Lady*

      I keep dean’s list, college awards, and college extracurriculars that pertain to my field listed on my LinkedIn profile. I’m 28.

      I think once you have worked somewhere after graduating college, it is safe to take all of that information off your resume and not include it with application materials unless requested.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I like that – LinkedIn is a good compromise, that way it’s available if a prospective employer does a search for you, but you’re not highlighting it and using up resume real estate to do so.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      National Merit became irrelevant once you went to college. Dean’s List became irrelevant once you graduated from college. The writing contest, unless it’s directly related to your field, isn’t relevant either.

    7. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      This is contrary to what AAM recommends, but I always list that I was a graduate of the high school I attended.
      First of all – it was one of the better high schools in Massachusetts – and still is. It shows I didn’t go to Bozo High.

      Second, you NEVER know of a personal connection that may come up during the interview process. 22 years later, an interviewer in Georgia noted my high school. Turned out I was very good friends with her brother-in-law.

      But one has to be careful – if you are out of high school ten years and talk about the awards you won there – it MIGHT wreak “peaked in high school”.

    8. Preux*

      I think of it this way: if I’m putting something on my resume, I’m making the statement ‘I don’t have anything more relevant that could have taken this space’. So that’s what I judge based on. I’m 25 and my resume doesn’t have my high school or college accomplishments on it any more, just my degree; and I was super embarrassed when I interviewed for an internal transfer and the interviewing manager pulled out my resume from back when I first started with the company, with all of that old info on it, and started asking me about it! (I did get the position BTW, this wasn’t a disaster or anything, but I do feel like we wasted some interview time discussing school activities that weren’t really relevant to what I would be doing at all, which would have been avoided if he had been going off of my current resume.)

    9. Chickaletta*

      Take it all off. Leaving it on draws attention to your high school and college years, so unless you want to be known as a college student or someone who reached their peak five years ago (even if that’s the case, you want to appear like you’ve moved onwards and upwards), so it should come off. Draw attention to the accomplishments you made as an employed adult instead.

        1. Justme*

          So then I have a question. I work full time. I have a kid. I’m a part time student. Obviously the kid stays off the resume. But do I put that I have a whatever gpa while working full time? Or just list my post-secondary education as its own thing?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            You don’t typically include your GPA anyway unless it’s very high (3.7 or higher), and even then you don’t need to. I don’t think you need to note that you were also working full-time; I’d just put education in its own section and leave it at that.

    10. Honeybee*

      I’m about 8 years from college and I don’t have any of my college accomplishments on my resume – just years of graduation. I only have one honor from graduate school, even, and that’s simply because it’s a pretty prestigious national award that most PhDs across fields would have heard of. I’ve seen PhDs with 20 years of experience keep it on.

      I’d leave off the writing contest.

    11. Caro*

      In this vein- should you also take stuff off like phi beta kappa or graduating cum laude after a certain amount of time?

      1. Khal E. Eessi*

        I’m wondering the same about cum laude! I have put “B.S. in Blabbity Blobbing, Blah Blah College, Class of 2009 with cum laude honors” and then mention my study abroad because I have gotten a job based on the fact the interviewer did the same study abroad program.

        But maybe at this point I am too far in to leave that in?

      2. Clever Name*

        I’m 37 and you can take my cum laude from my cold dead hands. ;) I graduated with a BS in a hard science, and I feel like that was a pretty big accomplishment. That said, I just have it listed next to my degree and I do t really call it out. I started to put it on my LinkedIn profile but it just looked, I don’t know, stupid? on there, so I removed it immediately.

    12. Grimmerlemming*

      The only award i keep on my resume is my Fulbright fellowship due to how prestigious they are. It also helps that I list accomplishments during my tenur as a Fulbright scholar as a separate job.

      All other college rewards came off at 26. Including grad first in my class of 12000 at a world renown school for my subject.

    13. Chaordic One*

      I left the highschool awards on my resume when I got out of college and was looking for my first “real” job, but after that they came off. I kept the college awards on for about 5 years or so, when it became clear that I was moving from entry-level work to mid-level work and the college education was becoming eclipsed by my professional experience and I would kind of recommend the same for most people.

      Of course, I’m sure there might well be an exception where you feel you need to do it differently.

  16. Fabulous*

    Why does it always take so long to push an employment offer through HR? Been working as a temp at this company since May covering for a maternity leave. She returned beginning of August and they kept me on and created a new position specially for me because they liked me so much (yay!) but it’s been taking forever to actually bring me on despite all the “work” that’s gone into creating this new position. I’ve known I was to become permanent since about halfway through the maternity leave, so about 2 months they’ve had to get things in order already. Now it’s coming down to the point where the transition NEEDS to happen for various reasons (contract is coming to an end soon, financing for buying a house, etc.) but they’re still dragging their feet it seems like. It’s so annoying!!

    1. Dawn*

      There’s a lot of reasons… I don’t know what they are, but they are there. At my old company HR took FOR. EV. ER. to do anything. Hiring, promotions, raises… FOR. EV. ER.

      They sure as shit could whip up termination papers on a moment’s notice tho.

      1. Jadelyn*

        A lot of it comes down to needing approvals from on high – I started here as an agency temp in January 2014, by July I was told they were working on converting the position, I didn’t get converted until the end of November! And it was still technically a “temp” position, just internal rather than via an agency. I didn’t lose the temp designation until just a few months ago!

        And trust me, I know it’s frustrating, but if I’m trying to chase down an SVP or the COO for approvals for specific offer terms, it can take awhile to drag answers out of them. Especially for a temp-to-regular position conversion, that probably means increasing the department’s FTE, which usually gets a lot of pushback unless you can seriously JUSTIFY why you NEED the position long-term, and those discussions can take for-freaking-EVER.

        1. Anonyby*

          Needing approvals from on high can really take forever. I’m currently stuck in that limbo (though Boss is trying to transition me from PT weekends-and-floating to FT-with-some-availability-to-float rather than true temping). It’s aggravating and stressful.

      2. Jadelyn*

        The term papers are a lot faster because they generally don’t require as many approvals to fire someone as it does to hire them. And/or there’s a lot going on behind the scenes prior to a term, meetings and discussions and coaching and whatnot, which most people don’t see happening, so it does look sudden when finally things reach a point that concrete action is being taken – but it really isn’t as sudden as it seems, if you’ve been able to watch the full process.

    2. Coolb*

      Don’t blame HR unless you have viability to what goes on behind the scenes. Hiring managers and higher ups love to use HR as a frontman to not have direct conversations about budget or whatever may be a gating item to hiring somebody.

      1. Coolb*

        ugh, visibility not viability.

        BTW, maybe you can tell I’m in HR. can I tell you how many times a manager went off the reservation and made a commitment without the proper authority or approvals, then blamed it on us for being slow when we were running around like maniacs trying to cover his/behind?

    3. anonymouse*

      Ouch! I totally understand though as I’m an HR Manager. I’m the most impatient person in the world. But in order to hire anyone…I have to reaffirm with the hiring manager (days!) that is who they want to hire,approval from plant manager (more days), approval from general manager (more days, begging, and meetings), also sometimes approval from corporate HR instead of just me in plant HR. I was an internal hire/promotion when I took this position after 3.5 years. It took them 3 months to figure out my job title and compensation (they split one job to make mine and another). Lots of Red tape.

    4. Melissa*

      At my company, while we don’t have an HR department, the owners have to do all final interviewing. This makes lots of sense, except that they won’t do it unless they can be TOGETHER (and that goes for all kinds of meetings), and they both travel about 3 weeks out of the month, not together. So like, scheduling a meeting with them is a huge nightmare. We have lots a lot of probably great employees who have to take another job because the interview process takes so long. Why won’t they delegate, or at least let the OTHER one make a decision? The world may never know, but it is endlessly frustrating.

      So, for us, hiring takes forever because the decision-makers are too busy.

  17. TotesMaGoats*

    Can I whine just a little bit? I’ve got a raging ear infection but I’m in my office for a half day because I am literally the only person in the WHOLE school who knows how to admit a graduate student and get them correct in the system so they can get registered. Seriously. And since we’ve only been doing online apps for about 7 months, there is still so much paper that comes in. Classes start Monday so I’m here, working. I can’t really hear out of my ear. I’m exhausted from being sick and not having a day off two months and working my tail off. And let’s add that the Tylenol with codeine that I took last night for the ear pain kept me away almost all night. So that sucked.

    But the second job that I posted about a couple weeks ago that I was just waiting to open up, opened up today. Just some minor tweaks to my cover letter and I can get that out this weekend. But back to just wanting to go home and curl up with my cats and sleep.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Sorry – ear infections (so I hear, oops, no pun intended) can be so distracting and hurt a lot!
      Here’s hoping you can push through the day and then go home and curl up with those cats and sleep!

    2. Jadelyn*

      Ouch, so sorry to hear that. Does your org have any plans to, y’know, train anyone as your backup at some point? Because it’s super not fair to you to have to come in while you feel that awful.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Fellow higher ed employee here! I really hope you feel better soon! And for pete’s sake, they need to train someone else to admit grad students!

    4. Dankar1208*

      Are you at my university? I swear there’s only one person who can do that here, and it’s insane on campus today! I’m working our office for incoming international students and am skipping out on the fun stuff (campus tours, free lunch, etc.) to answer calls and walk ins. So I’m feeling a bit whiny, too.

      I hope you feel better, though! Ear aches are literally the worst.

    5. TootsNYC*

      sympathies!

      Do you find yourself getting up and trying to walk away from the pain in your ear? I did.

    6. Candi*

      Getting to this late late late…

      But if you can take them, pseudophedrine helps open the Eustachian tubes, allowing the ear to drain, while ibuprofen is an anti inflammator. Cleaning your ear out with hydrogen peroxide can help as well.

      Sharing my long and painful experience since I was a kid, here. :p

      And they needto train a backup.

      Back to checking out the archives. (And figuring out how to phrase the question I eventually want to ask.)

  18. Getting Overwhelmed*

    One of my teammates is practically impossible to work with.

    He epitomizes the antisocial programmer stereotype. He straight up ignores questions over IM and email if he thinks they’re “obvious,” he won’t update the rest of us on his work through the project management software we use because he doesn’t understand it (he hasn’t made any effort to understand it), and he’s occasionally deleted and redone other people’s work because he dislikes the way we’ve done it (the project were working on requires us to work together in a shared server environment, without any real way to stop this). As well, while a lot of his own work is pretty solid, he makes some really obvious technical errors, and he makes them repeatedly, even after a couple of people tell him “Wayne, you have to do it this way or it won’t work.”

    I feel bad for the guy, because this is his first post college office job and he seems to have some really bad anxiety issues. But he’s making my own job much harder and he doesn’t seem to be making any attempts to improve. It’s at the point where a good chunk of my own workday is devoted to cleaning up after him, and I have to stay late to get my own work done.

    I’m pretty sure the higher ups in our department know about his problems, but it’s becoming unbearable to work with him because of this stuff. I really want to tell our boss that, and say that someone really needs to lay out the behaviors he needs to adopt to work on a team, and make sure he sticks to them, but I’m new here (so is he) and I’m a little worried this’d come off as presumptuous and like I’m telling my boss how he should do his own job. What should I do? I really can’t keep working with this guy unless he does a complete 180 with his teamwork skills.

    1. Leatherwings*

      So I think your instinct to address this is right, but the steps you laid out need some tweaking.
      You aren’t his manager so you can’t make suggestions about how to manage him or say things like “I can’t keep working with him unless…”
      You’re both new, and you probably don’t have the capital to make that claim. If it comes across that way, there’s a chance your employer will say “or what?” and let you go.

      Do you share a manager? If not, go to your manager and lay out what the issues are and what you need from him. Not “I need him to stick to certain behaviors” but “I really need him to answer my IMs.” Then listen to your manager and see what they suggest. Ultimately, they may step up and manage him (he sounds like a pain), or they might decide that these are things they aren’t willing to push him on, and you’re going to have to either deal with it or leave. The only thing you can really do in this situation is let your manager know what the issues are though.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        I agree – in particular, I would focus on the aspects that are impacting your work most directly. This guy sounds obnoxious, but make it about you needing your manager’s help to get your work done, not how he’s terrible to work with. You should not be staying late or cleaning up after him if that’s not your job, and good boss would want to know about that and fix it.

        1. Jadelyn*

          +100 – frame it as “this behavior of his is impacting my ability to do my own job, how can we make it so that I can spend my time doing my work instead of [other stuff]?” Collaborative tone rather than confrontational, all that jazz.

      2. Getting Overwhelmed*

        Wow, that was really well said. Thank you.

        You made a good point that I need to switch out of my complaining to friends voice when I talk to our boss. We have the same boss.

        What I’m now planning on saying (we are nearing the end of a crunch period right now and I’m not going to voice this until afterwards) is something like “There are a few things which Wakeen does that really impact my productivity, because I either have to chase him down for even a basic acknowledgement that he got the message, or I have to clean up after him. I’m finding that I need to stay late to get my work done most days, because of this. I really like working for you and working for the company, but this is slowly wearing me down. They are X, Y, and Z, and they impact me because A, B, and C. I’m not a manager so I don’t know how to handle it but I think you should know.”

        I think that sounds a lot more professional. I like my boss, but ultimately he’s a boss and the biggest thing to him is my productivity, and he’s already acknowledged that working longer hours than other folks will wear me down and that something should be done about it.

    2. Temperance*

      Honestly, having anxiety is unrelated to his poor performance. I think it’s time to talk to your boss about this. He’s impeding on your ability to have a life outside of work. That’s not acceptable.

      I would also stop cleaning up after him.

      3. Getting Overwhelmed*

        Oh yeah, I understand. I just brought it up because

        a) I’ve got plenty of experience with it: I have a close relative who gets panic attacks, and I’ve been receiving treatment for my own anxiety disorder for a few years (it’s very much under control now) so

        b) I want to be sympathetic, because a sympathetic boss (who also had anxiety disorder) at my first job helped me learn how to manage it in the workplace. I really want to pass that on to my future younger colleagues.

        I definitely, which is why the boss needs to know. I’m definitely not going near the “I think he might possibly have some anxiety issues” when I talk to my boss, with a 10 foot stick though.

    3. Purest Green*

      he won’t update the rest of us on his work through the project management software we use because he doesn’t understand it (he hasn’t made any effort to understand it)

      Sigh. I currently work with someone who won’t update our shared project management site and is bad at all aspects of the job. You definitely have to stop cleaning up his work. If your work relies on his work being cleaned up, then your manager needs to know that fact (present it factually).

      1. Getting Overwhelmed*

        I think if this guy is coached upon what he needs to start doing, and if he actually does it, he could be pretty effective. Problem is that he doesn’t seem to view this type of thing as important. :/

          1. Getting Overwhelmed*

            Oh, that’s not something I’m doing for him. Our PM has very clearly noticed the difference in our communication styles and willingness/ability to learn/use the project management system the team uses. Specifically, that I respond and that I ask plenty of questions about it. Like “hey, we used something different at OldJob. How do you want me to report any delays to you: through this or through email or some totally different way?”

            That’s *a* reason why I think our boss will be sympathetic to me as long as I don’t enter this discussion with him with a bad attitude. There’s been enough emails saying stuff like “Wakeen, you absolutely need to let other people know how your parts of these projects are going” with absolutely no reply from Wakeen he’s been CCed on.

    4. moss*

      I’d like to push back on the idea that programmers have no social skills. Programming is by nature an extremely collaborative job. Very rarely will one programmer be the only one working on a project from start to finish. Being able to answer questions and follow work standards is very important. This guy sounds like a NIGHTMARE to work with and given that it’s his first job you MIGHT be able to train new and better habits into him.

      Whatever you decide, please don’t let it go because programmer=geek=unable to function normally. The best programmers can not only program but communicate with team members and they MUST be able to follow work instructions. Not learning your systems is not acceptable for any reason.

      1. Getting Overwhelmed*

        I’m a programmer too! :) It was meant to be light hearted, but I guess the negative tone of the rest of my post sorta killed that.

        1. Myrin*

          FWIW, I think your intention came across perfectly well, what with the use of “he epitomises this stereotype” which typically means that this isn’t your personal opinion.

        2. moss*

          I just don’t want you or anyone reading this to think that type of behavior can be excused by his job title. Cheers!

      3. Dan*

        Yeah… I’m actually the sole contributor to my code base, but even still, I have bosses and peers and people who use what I write. Getting requirements, making sure we’re doing the right thing, validating the output, making sure people can actually use what you’re developing, and all of that crap? Social skills.

        I work with a guy who is also the sole contributor to his own code base, and whenever I need something from him, it takes FOR E VER. And when you do try to talk to him about making changes, he goes on and on about the rationale for what he did. I mean, it’s one thing to make sure that if you’re changing the spec, that you’re not doing it willy-nilly, but this guy is just impossible… he brings a unique skillset, but it’s so hard to get stuff out of him that if he were managed out or quit, I’d happily take my chances on a replacement. IOW, if I were boss, he’d be on a PIP.

        1. Getting Overwhelmed*

          Sounds familiar. If I were this guy’s boss, I would’ve probably put him on a PIP the first time he said something like “I don’t reply to questions that have an obvious answer.” That’s an awful attitude. Like, I can’t think of a worse attitude in the office than that aside like, punching co-workers.

    5. TootsNYC*

      I think there is room for peer feedback, and maybe even peer anger (righteous, controlled, measured anger).

      He makes your job harder? Say something directly to him. Give him negative responses that might incentivize him to stop doing things.

      “Chuck, you deleted my code–which means you threw out all my work. I don’t care that it wasn’t written the way YOU would write it–it worked, and you tossed it. Don’t do that again.”

      “Chuck, this is the fourth or fifth time one of us has told you that this won’t work. I can’t do my part until this is fixed, and I’m going to have to fix it instead of leaving it to you. Which means I’m staying late. And that’s your fault.”

      And yes, take it to your manager, with an emphasis on:
      -it wastes people time and effort–and the company’s money
      -it causes confusion, which wastes people time and effort–and the company’s money

      1. Getting Overwhelmed*

        This was a good idea, but I tried it Friday afternoon and it backfired.

        We were working on a problem that had one ugly and tedious way of solving it (basically manual copy+paste data entry — I know), that would undoubtedly work. But he kept insisting it wouldn’t. So I asked him, in the calmest and most polite tone I could manage, “Charlie, I don’t understand why you keep saying this wouldn’t work. Yeah, it’s not a nice way of solving it, but I can’t see how it would work. Can you explain why it wouldn’t? If I’m missing something that’s really obvious, I need you to let me know so we don’t waste our time and stay late.”

        Maybe I wasn’t as nice sounding as I thought I was, or I wanted to be, but he just couldn’t handle that. I would like to think I was, but it’s possible my irritation was showing a lot more than I thought. But he absolutely couldn’t take that. He sort of had a mini meltdown where he went off and started shouting at me that I was distracting him, he didn’t have time for me, and that I was stressing him out, and left.

        Boss advised me to take a few minutes after that, so I stepped away, and when I came back boss asked how I was doing. I said something like “I’m doing okay, but are you trying to tell me I should leave?” he said “No,” and I said “well then I’m going to get back to XYZ that you asked me for.”

        I feel like I should be a little worried about my standing here now, but I’m honestly not, because these things have happened before between him and other co-workers. I feel a little mean saying this, but I think he simply isn’t equipped to work here.

      1. Getting Overwhelmed*

        I always follow up. It’d usually prevent me from getting things done if I didn’t. I give him around 10 minutes, then I walk over to his desk and say “hey Wakeen, I sent you an IM a few minutes ago, but I didn’t get a reply. Anyway, I need to know X.”

    7. Student*

      Stop cleaning up after him. Always prioritize your own work first, even if your part won’t work right until he fixes his stuff.

      If you literally cannot move forward on your work until his is finished correctly, then tell that to the project manager – “I can’t get started on this because Dilbert’s part isn’t working yet.”

      The more you clean up after him, the more you enable him at your own expense.

  19. Gaia*

    I’m currently recruiting (to replace Felicia) and for the first time ever I’ve been on the receiving end of applicants trying to stand out in ways that just irritate me. Like the resume video. And the infographic resumes. And the guy who responded to my email requesting we speak (phone screening) by telling me he only meets in person but that he’s like Clark Kent and when we meet, he’ll be sure to turn into Super Applicant.

    2. TeaPotDesigner*

      My local newspaper had been using huge adverts in their own paper to show off their resume video services and claiming it will give applicants the edge. I really hope those poor souls hadn’t pay too much for it.

      1. Chaordic One*

        No! No! No!

        That is SO wrong!

        I know newspaper revenues are down, but this is NOT how to prop up the business.

    3. AFRC*

      Oh my god. Ask Clark/Super Applicant which one of them would show up to work if you offered him the job – and then politely decline. (I’m sure that’s unprofessional, but would be deeply satisfying.)

      I admit that I tried to be clever in cover letters when I was younger. But that was a long time ago, and I think I just eventually realized that I was being obnoxious, and stopped doing it. Hopefully these folks will take the hint.

    4. motherofdragons*

      “…but that he’s like Clark Kent and when we meet, he’ll be sure to turn into Super Applicant.”

      lol wut

    5. Jadelyn*

      Omg WHAT. Specifically re the Clark Kent guy. That’s a new one…

      Do people actually do the infographic resume? I’ve never seen one before, I half-thought those were an urban legend or something. The closest I’ve gotten was this guy whose resume was a solid black background, an abstract design in red and white in the center, and his resume information in white text over all of it. It actually looked super cool…just not for a resume.

      I usually don’t even bother responding to video resumes to request a real resume unless I’m hard up for candidates for the position in question. And then there’s the people who don’t send a resume, but just email and say “I have some questions about the position, can you call me so we can discuss it?” To which my answer is a resounding “Nope!” and a click of the delete button, because that’s a candidate who thinks they’re too special to follow the same process as everyone else and just wants to get me on the phone because they think they can push me into moving them forward in the process so long as we make some kind of voice-to-voice contact.

      1. Gaia*

        I also thought they were just fodder for those clickbait advise columns but I received 3 in two days. SO I fear some people are taking this seriously.

      2. Kelly L.*

        Ugh, I’ve got some people applying right now who read the ad that says what to send and where to send it, and they call me up to ask what they should send and where they should send it. I think either they have no reading comprehension, or else they think making voice contact is the magic spell that will make me hire them. I don’t even do the actual choosing!

    7. Library Director*

      Gah, infographic resumes. I’m thinking that instead of having a How to Interview workshop we need a How Not to Interview workshop. I dislike negative titles, but it might bring out some folks that need to really hear this. I feel so bad for people who get this really bad advice.

  20. Rory Gilmore's Book*

    Praise for this week – I finally had a difficult conversation with my boss this week about a coworker/friend and it went well. In a nutshell, my coworker/friend has dumped a lot of work responsibilities on me in recent months, even though our roles are completely different. I helped her out during her maternity leave but she is back now and still wanting to dump things on me. My boss assured me that it wont happen in the future. Part of the problem is that my boss is remote, and myself and coworker are here, and it “makes sense” for me to pick up the slack because Im here and not my manager.

    Its very frustrating but it felt good to have that conversation nonetheless.

  21. Virginian*

    It’s been a couple of weeks and I still feel anxious at my new job. Ugh! I’d appreciate any stories about your first few days at a new job.

    1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Starting a new job is really, really hard! I found that for at least a month at most of my jobs I was still anxious beforehand and completely exhausted after work–it’s pretty mentally taxing to have to consciously remember and think about every little thing! When things become routine and you don’t need to check yourself every five seconds, it’s easier, but oh my, it’s so wearying at first. And stressful! It will get better!

    2. Dawn*

      When I started at my last job everyone thought I was cold and stuck up (nothing could be further from the truth) because it was the first job I’d ever had in a big office setting so I was trying to be super professional and buttoned up the whole time. I eventually thawed out and made friends with a TON of people, some of whom have turned into best friends even tho that job is two years behind me.

      1. Daisy Dukes*

        As someone that has interacted with you on here, I can’t even imagine you being an ice queen haha I think we would be friends IRL :)

    3. Gaia*

      It took me about 2 months before I stopped thinking I had made a major mistake in taking my current job and about another 6 months before I felt even moderately competent in my role. I still come across things I have to ask about and I’ve been here 2 years. This was a complete and total switch in industry for me and it involves an area that I’m I had no familiarity with. The culture was great though and everyone assured me that my level of discomfort was normal. Now I am happy and content but those first few months were brutal.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      So my boss works at another site, and she wasn’t even present for my first few days! She dumped me on my counterpart, who didn’t know how to train people and basically left me to my own devices… so I sat at my computer reading the website, trying to glean any information I could.

      Actually, it took months for me to feel comfortable, but a big part of that was my cranky counterpart. Now she’s gone and I feel independent and self-taught, which I’m proud of.

    5. Coolb*

      Made a huge mistake in the first few months that required execs to get involved. It was a math error having to do with converting benefits for a company we required. Very visible because they relied on my math in telling the new employees that the contributions were compatible. Because somebody else delivered the message she got blamed so I had to raise my hand and say it was me. I was sure I would get fired. I didn’t, we moved on and I stayed many, many years and had lots of positions. Many years later I used my co-worker as a reference and she relayed the story of how I owned the mistake outright and that was enough for everybody to treat it like what it was, a one-off mistake.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I have always thought it takes at least 6 months to settle into a job, then a full year to start to feel confident.
      It was funny, I was talking to peers and they agreed that the 6 month mark seemed be when they felt better, too. Then it came flooding over them one day that they will never, ever learn the job. At this point I am laughing out loud because I agree. In my arena, you get used to just not knowing all there is to know. And at the 6 month mark you have a greater awareness of how everyone else doesn’t know either.
      In a classic example, we had a training session. The trainer said always do X. I knew that was wrong, but I kept following along. He said always do X about 5 or 6 times. After the last time he said it, a Big Wig called in the middle of the live training and told him to stop saying that. ughhhhh. So it goes.

      Quietly collect up examples of things that get people fired, that way you will know what to avoid. And collect up examples of things that tick the boss off, so you can avoid those things also. Yes, lots of avoidance behavior going on. But I have found it helpful to know where the boundaries are and then I can really dig in and learn the job.

  22. Ruthie*

    I started a new job about four months ago with an odd reporting dynamic. I report to the big boss even though there is a woman above me in my department. I still have to run everything by her so it often feels like I have two bosses. Meanwhile, the woman above me in my department, but who is not my manager, has been making minor slights towards me or my role. Each one on their own can easily be dismissed as her just not being considerate or me overthinking it, but it’s developed into a pattern and I’m not sure if I should say anything about it. Some specific examples include her saying to our team, “Well you remember Ruthie’s position was really an intern but we hired full-time because I got tired of training someone every few months.” I am the third position in this position and each hire has been made at a higher level so I came in with talent and experience and couldn’t help but feel a little insulted that it was implied my position could be handled by an intern. She’s also compared a person an at organization to me because “She’s like Ruthie in that her role doesn’t require any strategy.” I think of myself as very strategic. The last example I’ll give she recently told me that I have a similar style to Rachel’s character in Glee which isn’t in and of itself a problem except that I’m not a adorably quirky teenager, I’m a 30-year-old who wears nothing but business casual Ann Taylor. Again, none of these are particularly egregious on their own, and I think they come out of a place of insecurity in her part and are a way of demonstrating her experience over mine, but I’m frustrated none the less. Any insights or advice?

    1. Jodi*

      I don’t think it would be inappropriate to respond to these in the moment. It seems that since she is not privy to all of your assignments nor all of your communications with your boss, she really doesn’t have a complete idea of your role. “I actually work on a lot of projects that [boss] assigns me that are very strategic!” “It’s my understanding that they wanted someone more experienced in this role, and that’s why they decided to turn it into a full-time position.” “I hope you’re not comparing me to the interns that used to work here. I have way more experience than they did.”

      1. Sadsack*

        I like these suggestions, I hope Ruthie can try these next time. I bet they’ll shut the coworker right up.

    2. Development Professional*

      I kinda feel like you’re overthinking this. I mean, she’s clearly letting her insecurities show by constantly making sure that you and everyone around knows that YOU ARE VERY JUNIOR AND I AM VERY SENIOR, RUTHIE. But I think if you try to call her out on this, you’ll be the one who looks petty. The best way to try to combat this is to actually do and say things that are strategically valuable for your department, not to insist, “actually, I think I’m very strategic.” Use actions, not words, and you will get your point across to those around you just fine, including your actual boss.

      1. Friday*

        I hate passive aggressive co-workers. If you call them out, they fall back on “I didn’t mean that” or “you are being too sensitive”. I agree that actions, not words are the best offense but I would later in a few light comments like “Ouch, did you really mean to suggest that I come off like a quirky teenager?” or “I’m sure you didn’t mean it this way, but that comment could be taken as marginalizing my role and talents”.

    3. Sparkly Librarian*

      I resemble the remark about Rachel (kindergartner and grandma at the same time), which is fine with me, but I don’t think most people would offer it as a compliment. Hmph!

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      When she’s talking about you not to you just raise an eyebrow and get back on subject. As in, “Okay…now can we talk about X project?”
      When she’s saying something truly bizarre like a comment on your personal style to you ask, “Why do you say that?” Or just give her a Wow or Okay and walk away.

    5. Marisol*

      How about, when she says that, ask her, “what do you mean?” and see what she says. How she actually responds to the question is less important than the fact that she will see you are going to hold her accountable, albeit subtly, for what she says. And if she pushes back in a way that forces you to escalate a bit, it can go something like this:

      her: you look just like the girl from glee.
      you: what do you mean?
      her: what do I mean? you look like her! it’s obvious what I mean
      you: well, you’re talking about a teenager, and I’m a grown woman.
      her: oh, don’t be so easily offended! Take it as a compliment!
      you: I don’t feel complimented. I actually feel belittled. Please don’t say things like that to me in the future.

      Something like, “what do you mean” is a stock question you can use anytime she says something like this. I think it’s easier to memorize a single response, because when someone insults you, it can be easy to get flustered and not know what to say. It’s possible she will be too cowardly to let the conversation go very far after you ask that question, viz:

      you: what do you mean?
      her: oh, nevermind…
      [and then she never tries that crap again]

      Good luck!

      1. Marisol*

        I forgot to say, a lot of times bullies count on their victims to complete the transaction and turn their ambiguous statements into actual bullying. So if someone only *insinuates* something, they’re tossing you a ball; if you refuse to take their meaning, ignoring the ball and letting it fall to the ground, you are refusing to be complicit with their bullying. So the bully has to do all the work, which they don’t want to do because they are too cowardly to be direct.

        To offer another metaphor: it’s like someone saying, “come over here so I can punch you in the face,” knowing that there are some people who will actually be willing to comply, who will walk over to the bully and receive abuse. But others will just stay where they are. If you ask the woman to explain her comment, you are refusing to be complicit in your own bullying.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This is definitely awkward.

      It seems to me that both of you are not clear on how your relationship with each other is supposed to work. She is not your boss, yet you have to run things by her. I hope that is because what you are doing impacts her work in some manner and then she is supposed to respond with some type of update? This murkiness alone lays the groundwork for awkward conversations. You might want to go back to your own boss and get a clearer picture of what she hopes to gain by having you clear stuff with this non-boss lady.

      I could be misunderstanding your setting but it sounds like you are saying the lower level workers were under her watch. Now that they have hired you, a higher level worker, they have removed the position from her watch. She could feel that this is a slap in the face, a vote of no confidence.
      Maybe she deserves their lack of confidence in her. Or maybe her confidence is shot because she has been jerked around. It’s hard to tell.

      I think I would point to changes in the position and how the requirements of the job have changed. “Yes, I see where they had an intern. I was told that they found out they needed someone who has x, y and z (state specific quals or experience here) which is what I have.”
      Honestly, it sounds like no one went over your job duties/responsibilities with her.
      Yes, she is handling it like a five year old. But you don’t have to respond in kind, of course.

      If you can find out from your big boss what caused the change in hiring strategy (or maybe you already know) that might help give you some info to explain to this woman. “When the other people were here, Big Boss realized that we actually needed A, B and C, and we could not get that from an intern.”

      This may or may not help: I would keep a straight face and in all sincerity explain, explain, explain every time she makes one of the remarks. I would treat it like confusion and ignore the idea that she is making a cheap shot or making a bad joke. If you appear not to “get” that she is trying to insult you, she may get bored and give up. Meanwhile, you look calm, cool and professional.

  23. AshKetchum*

    In our check-in meeting yesterday, my manager said that the culture within our institution is to look down on new employees (I’m a new employee) and then he emphasized that he thought this was a good thing because new employees think they know everything when they don’t. He also threw in a jab about Millenials and made a point to say that he was including me in that group before he went on to make his negative assessment. This just confirmed the completely cold and unwelcoming vibe I’ve been getting from everyone so at least I know I’m not crazy anymore.

    I really need to get out of here, but my search is going so slow this go ’round! I’ve been searching for about a month and typically in the past, I would’ve been contacted for at least one phone interview by now. I think I might have to add this job on my resume even though I’ve only been here for three months so far. I feel like people are thinking I was fired from my last job.

    1. Kaitlyn*

      What a horribly toxic-sounding environment you’re in right now. I hope your job search proves fruitful before too long! Best of luck!

    2. Purest Green*

      Wow. OK, my jaw is back in place. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this manager, and it sounds like he needs to be reported to somebody. Do you have an HR?

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Oh my goodness, what horrible comments. It’s confirmed… your boss is a jerk. Sending you good wishes for a fruitful job search!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      If he brings it up again, I’d be tempted to ask what the employee turn over rate is.

      Good luck on your search, I hope something comes up quick.

    7. Drew*

      Best of luck on your search. Your manager is not a good person and it sounds like either he’s reflecting the workplace or your team is reflecting his view.

  24. BBBizAnalyst*

    Does anyone have advice on how to work with a project manager who is disorganized? We’re going through a huge application transition at work and we have had a weekly meeting where we rehash the same topics that were supposed to be resolved months ago. Naturally, the rollout of this new application has been delayed. We are not in the same dept but my team has to meet with the project manager to discuss deliverables and program needs. It doesn’t seem like she actually writes or logs any of this stuff and it’s become a huge waste of our time because nothing is progressing.

    1. Jodi*

      Project managers are supposed to be the most organized of the bunch? Can you kindly suggest organization tools like Basecamp or Trello or Asana? Maybe phrase it as “We’d love to have a little more transparency in the progress of projects and assignment of deliverables. What do you think about managing projects through an organization tool? I’ve heard that they make project management way easier/less stressful/time efficient.”

    2. NW Mossy*

      I’m dealing with a related issue right now – I have a project manager who told me that my project (which we’ve sunk many hours into already this year) got bumped to 2018 because “we weren’t far enough along for IT to size the project for next year, so we missed the budgeting window and can’t get IT resources.” Never mind that he never communicated any deadlines or deliverables to the team, despite our repeated requests for them!

      I pulled in my boss on it, and other participants pulled in their bosses also, so this thing is getting hot fast as there are now several higher-ups who are very displeased to find that a critical project is in jeopardy. My boss talked to his and found out that his boss didn’t even know that the project was bumped! My boss is meeting with the head of the PM group on Monday, and it’s looking like the results of that meeting are unlikely to be good for this PM. I like him very much as a person, but he totally dropped the ball and the full wrath of several crabby managers and directors is rolling towards him full speed, whether he realizes it or not.

      So, yeah, if you trust your boss, put your hand up and tell him/her exactly what you told us – delayed implementation, lack of progress, missing notes, rehashing decided issues, etc. are jeopardizing the project and negatively impacting X, Y, and Z.

  25. zora.dee*

    Any advice or recommendations whether to take a permanent offer that I think is terrible?

    -Temp to Perm position through my temp agency: posted as Executive Assistant, $30-37/hour
    – They offered me $31, wouldn’t negotiate up. Then the day I started informed me “we actually use Administrative Assistant here.”
    – Company acquired by a larger company
    – 3months later new company offers me the permanent position: Administrative assistant at $26/hour.
    – Asked to negotiate, their counter is $27/hour

    At the moment, I feel like I have to accept it because I have a health issue I’m dealing with, and I need income right now, I can’t afford to be unemployed. However, I’m planning to be done with that in 2-3 weeks.

    I feel like this has been a total bait-and-switch, and this was not the job I applied for, and they are not offering me anything worth staying for. Should I feel bad if I accept the permanent job and then immediately start job hunting, and hopefully leave within a few months?

    I suppose another option is just to tell the staffing agency I don’t want to take this offer, and to find me another placement, but I don’t know how quickly I’ll be able to get more work.

    Is there something else I’m missing? I’m mostly just really frustrated, I’ve been job hunting for 2 years now and just keep getting terrible offers or total runarounds and I’m tired of being so underpaid.

    1. Mona Lisa*

      This is similar to the commentor above who asked if he should accept a promotion while job hunting. I think you should accept the offer you have (so you don’t end up unemployed) and keep searching in the meantime. You never know how long a job search will take, and it’s easier and less stressful to find something new when you still have an income.

      1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        Not just that – you now have a higher salary base to negotiate from.

        Not just that – since you just were promoted, it’s unlikely that you’re going to hit the top of the layoff list if one is taken up.

        Not just that! The fact that you were just promoted looks good on your resume – there is a psychological aspect to hiring someone who is on the rise – people tend to like to do that.

        1. Mona Lisa*

          Was this comment meant for conflicted (above)? I don’t think that going from Executive Assistant to Admin Assistant would be seen as a promotion.

    2. AFRC*

      You have every right to be upset – that’s an over $8000 pay cut! I’m sorry I don’t have any great advice for you, just best wishes with your health issue and job hunt. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to look for something else with such a significant pay cut (and use that in interviews when asked why you want to leave your job).

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      No, I don’t think it’s wrong to accept the offer and start job hunting. You’d be considered a job hopper if you applied for the position, took it, and left shortly after, but you’ve been working in the position, although under different circumstances, for a while already. And now your compensation is being changed, so I think you have a perfect explanation for a hiring manager even if you had previously only been in the temp-to-perm situation for a couple of months.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        It wouldn’t be too hard to combine the temp + perm positions together on a resume to show a continuous position for the full span of your time at this company.

    4. Collie*

      Eek. I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to at a minimum expect to be paid what you were before. Frankly, I’d be at least annoyed if there wasn’t a bump in pay, but at the very minimum, you should not be getting a cut, IMO. Asking for another placement might not be terrible, but it’s possible/likely you’ll still get a pay cut in that direction, too. This situation sucks all around. I’m not sure if you’re still searching beyond your staffing agency, but that might be worth a go if you feel like you can swing it.

      1. zora.dee*

        Wow, thanks everyone, I was worried that I was being overly picky, so it really helps to have validation that this is a crappy move on their part.

        In response to Collie: I do want to look outside the staffing agency, but because of this health thing, I can’t right now, and probably for a few more weeks. That’s why I felt bad because the timing sucks, I wanted to start looking earlier anyway, but I’ll be at like 1 month with the new company when I start looking.

        So, yeah, you are all validating what I was thinking so far, just take it and deal with the health issue, and then start looking as soon as I can, feeling no guilt about it. Thanks all, I love this place!!

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          Just want to point out that you shouldn’t tell the staffing agency that you might quit soon after shifting to a permanent role. Staffing agencies are usually paid a fee when someone transitions from temp to perm, and they often need to pay this fee back if the employee doesn’t stay a certain length of time (e.g., six months). If quitting is a possibility, your staffing agency might not want to support your transition to perm.

          1. Marisol*

            Really good point. Depending on how important the relationship with the agency is, she might even want to stick with the crummy job for the six months in order to not burn the bridge. I know my recruiter could care less if I turn around and quit after she gets her commission–it just means more money for her since she can staff the position again. And this recruiter is someone who has done very well by me, so my relationship with her is important. Some agencies aren’t great though, which would mean the relationship wouldn’t be a factor worth considering once you are hired as a permanent employee.

            1. I Heart Oregon*

              Recruiter here-yes we care when people quit-it damages our reputation of being able to find a good long-term fit like we promised we would do. It makes our clients very unhappy when they pay a large fee and then have to pay it again for a replacement. We understand when things come up obviously-like if the job turns out to be totally different than was promised. But your viewpoint is a little concerning.

              1. Marisol*

                You care, and *my* recruiter doesn’t care. Everyone is different. In the OP’s case, they *didn’t* get a good long-term fit because the company is jerking her around. So she plans to take the job, then turn around and leave regardless. It’s better for the recruiter to get the commission though, and if they do, there may be less chance for the OP to burn a bridge. My viewpoint is that everyone has to look out for their own interest–that’s business.

          2. zora.dee*

            This is a good point, and definitely depends on the agency, and any one working with an agency should be careful.

            I did feel my recruiter out today, with careful questions but without being explicit, and they did basically say that they had my back if I decide to try it out, but then decide in a few months that it’s not working out. That I could let them anytime and they’d start putting feelers out for me again. So, that is good to hear, because that is something I was worried about.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      Wow. To stay afloat, you should probably take it, but start job-hunting immediately. That’s unbelievably poor taste of them, and now you know that you need to get out!

    6. Formica Dinette*

      They’re totally jerking you around, but it does sound like the best thing is to take the job and return to looking when your health issue is no longer an issue. Since the company that insisted upon calling you an AA has been acquired, is there any chance you can get back the EA title? Or are there any other non-salary benefits you can negotiate for, like extra vacation time (that you can use to go on job interviews)?

      1. zora.dee*

        No, they are being weird about the title already since the new company apparently doesn’t even use the AA title. They definitely don’t have any EAs. I can’t get any more vacation time, and I can’t think of anything else to ask for that I would actually want.

        As a bonus, the health care also royally sucks, so there’s that….

    7. Not So NewReader*

      A couple things:

      Take a hard look around, be absolutely sure that this is the only way you can stay afloat for the next few weeks. It seems like cruel punishment to start this job and possibly be stuck at it, when you know your immediate concern is for just a few weeks.

      No one can tell you how you should feel. Your feelings are just that, your feelings. If you feel bad about leaving suddenly, that is one thing. The REAL problem is if you feel bad so you STAY just on the basis of feeling bad. Try to avoid making decisions on the basis of just your emotions. When it comes time to leave, then make your regrets known and leave.

      One thing I might be tempted to try, is to say to the staffing agency, “If I don’t accept this permanent job, do you have something else in the pipeline that I can do?” Notice you are saying “IF”. See what they say.

      1. zora.dee*

        Yeah, I agree it’s cruel punishment, but I need the health insurance, plus I now have some medical bills from being hospitalized a couple of weeks ago (yay, high deductible) and I just don’t think I could deal with my health if I had literally no income right now. I’d also have to apply for an ACA plan again, and switch my health insurance which just feels like another thing I can’t deal with at the moment.

        So, by taking it now and knowing I’ll start looking when my medical thing is done, it’s just about giving myself only one thing to deal with at a time. Because trying to think about all of them at the same time is giving me major anxiety.

        I did talk to the agency today and kind of felt them out about exactly what you said, there are definitely jobs out there, but I doubt I’d be able to start work on Monday, it would probably take a few days to a couple of weeks to actually start a new assignment. But they did say that they are okay with me giving it a try, even if I decide to leave in a few months, they will be fine with placing me again in the future. So, that’s good, I don’t have to worry I’ll burn the bridge with the agency. Even though I’m pretty sure it will burn the bridge with the company I work for. :o\

        But thank you for the reminder not to make decisions based on my emotions. Getting all the supportive comments here has made me more certain that this is crappy on their part, to cut my pay so much, so I’m not going to feel bad anymore. I was pretty clear that I wanted my current salary, and if they wanted to keep me they could have at least made a good faith effort at getting closer to it.

        Thank you for the support. If I didn’t have this stupid medical thing, I would totally be out the door already. I think I need to focus on getting better right now (in fact I’m going to go to bed super early tonight) and start job hunting hardcore as soon as I can. Fingers Crossed!!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Although it’s a lot of hoops to jump through it sounds like your situation is salvageable and you will be able to string some solutions together. I am glad. I hope you heal quickly and I hope the agency finds you a nice new shiny job that you love.

  26. Mazzy*

    First world problem but just want to vent. One of my guys makes everything so much more complicated than it needs to be. He makes complicated flow charts for processes with extra loops that don’t need to happen. He writes long emails outlining every possible situation or outcome of something, and even if he is right, I keep telling him that people at our company aren’t going to read a long essay. Or certain people will and others won’t. Some people only want the high level “this thing is happening” message and don’t want all of the contingencies. He also gets hung up on all of the small one time contingencies and it hampers him from actually having results.
    I’m working through this with him but I don’t get why he doesn’t get my message. Maybe because colleges teach that more is better and reward people for focusing on niche things and not the big picture? I don’t know.

    1. Dawn*

      As someone who was in his shoes once upon a time- set a good example, give him concrete goals to work towards, and manage the hell out of him until he changes. Also teach him the value of bullet point emails and MAKE him send you emails in bullet point until he gets the picture.

      I used to be super verbose, and I was anxious about my position and eager to prove myself while at the same time not having the confidence to say “THIS and THIS and THIS OTHER THING.” instead of “well I looked at this and then read all this other stuff and initially thought this but then there’s this other contingency and also it’s predicted to rain more in Malaysia next year so we could probably definitely maybe do this thing but only if you think it’s a good idea.”

      It just takes some time and some training, but you should be able to get him to change.

    2. Temperance*

      Are you his supervisor? That sounds really exhausting, and like he’s wasting time on things that aren’t important.

    3. Kyrielle*

      I tend to be overly verbose (to put it mildly), though I don’t think I overcomplicate other stuff as much as it sounds like he does.

      “Main point up front / summary” seems to help. I have often had to add details back later – so I want to include them – but I know that’s overdoing it.

      So I put the main point/summary above, and then add “Details:” and the rest of it below.

      And then I make myself save the details off in a file and clear them out of the email, if I think they’re most likely not needed.

    4. Ife*

      Some people just think that way naturally (focus on all the little details), and need to be trained how to summarize and spot what is important and what is reaaallly not worth spending time worrying about (me, yes, that is me). Are you giving him specific examples and guidelines? Instead of “write a short email to update people on the X project,” can you say, “Send a four-sentence update on the X project”? Maybe work through some of those flow charts with him and explain why you don’t care about that scenario that is never going to happen.

    5. Daisy Steiner*

      It sounds like he would make a great tester! My husband said the best tester he’s had could be a bit taxing because he always worked in specifics instead of generalities – but that that was exactly what he wanted from a tester (maybe not all of them, but at least one in a team) because he’ll think of all sorts of odd one-off scenarios and find bugs that no one else does.

      1. Mazzy*

        I like everyone’s comments. Yes to this, however, we are more in a position to spot the bugs and hand them off. If the bug is embedded in two paragraphs though, a busy programmer with twenty tickets open may not see it. That is where our problem lies.

    6. Grimmerlemming*

      I am very detail oriented and struggle with this. I am much better than two years ago but still have to re draft an email before sending. The number of times I write a couple of paragraphs and then rewrite it to one sentence!

      This will take time. Tell him to limit emails to no more than three sentences. It will help him focus and start to learn what is call and what is email appropriate.

      1. Grimmerlemming*

        Another thing is to tell him it’s ok to leave out parts. If someone needs it they will ask him. I struggle with that becaus I would need to know the details but others don’t.

    7. Student*

      Do you ever talk to him in person?

      I tend to resort to being verbose in emails when people won’t meet with me in other formats to discuss things that require detailed explanations, and won’t just delegate the responsibility to me.

      Alternatively, if you can’t be bothered with all the details, can you trust him enough to just say, “I trust you to handle this, do whatever you decide needs to happen,” and then back him up when he makes calls?

    8. Rocky*

      I have to coach almost everyone I hire on this (we’re collaborative, detail-oriented people working in a big hierarchy, 2-3 levels under the executives). It’s something that I’ve specifically told a report to work on if she wanted to advance. I joke about “executive-level reading comprehension” and tell staff that many people at that level have an assistant who reads all their emails and compiles all their meeting materials, and some don’t do more than glance at the subject line before deciding to read or delete. I’ve said, “Imagine all the emails you get, then multiply it by 10.” I specify that everything that goes upward should be no more than 3-4 sentences and preferably 1-2, and should have a very specific “ask” (in other words, please do not send the VP two paragraphs followed by “Looking forward to your thoughts on this.”) I also say that they’ve hired us because they trust us to take of the details and be the experts in our area, and that if they have questions they will definitely ask.

      I think communicating upward is a learned skill and can be counter-intuitive. Often junior people will see contact with senior folks as a way to shine, demonstrate how knowledgeable and thoughtful they are, and get noticed. Not necessarily a bad thing, but over-explaining and taking up someone’s time and attention is not the way to do that.

      1. Mazzy*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one. Yes there was one of those “like to hear your thoughts ones” recently I forgot about until I just read your comment. I need to go back to that one because you can’t just dump a bunch of info on someone and expect them to come up with a bunch of opinions when it’s not their core job. We’re supposed to make the conclusions for them and then ask yey or ne…

        1. Rocky*

          Yeah, I think reinforcing “they trust us to do our jobs because we’re the experts,” helps a bit. I’ve said, “VP actually has a background in rice sculpting, not teapot design, so she wouldn’t understand the details even if she had time to read everything. She trusts us to be the teapot experts so she doesn’t have to worry about it.”

    9. Not So NewReader*

      If you have spoken to him several times and there is no change then you may need to get a bit firmer.

      “Bob, this job requires you to be brief in your messages and your flow charts cannot show every imaginable scenario. This is what the job is, Bob. Are you able to do this?”

      If he mumbles something, let him know that he must start being brief as of today. You have given him numerous chances and now it is no longer optional, he is on notice that it is part of his job to be brief.

    10. The Devil's Advocate*

      I’m having trouble understanding the context of his communications. If he needs to just respond and say that something is being done to resolve a specific problem, then he probably doesn’t need to go into exact detail about how it is being handled.

      OTOH, if it involves him having to provide instructions to other people about how to do things, it is probably a good thing that he outlines how to deal with every contingency and shows this level of attention to detail.

      As to why he doesn’t get the message? It may be that he feels he isn’t getting any recognition for his work and so he’s trying to show off a little and get some attention. (I don’t really know how to deal with that.) OTOH, if he ends up having to go back to people for additional information because the task at hand turns out to be a non-standard one, that gets pretty frustrating and he’s probably thinks he is being pro-active and anticipating something before it becomes a problem.

    11. stevenz*

      Sometimes people think more is better in the sense that it makes them look like they are working harder than anyone else, or are showing off. In fact, they are usually unable to focus their thoughts or even understand the basic message they are trying to get across. It’s not something that works well in the work place, but some work cultures are more prone to that than others. I, for one, don’t like that approach and think it’s intellectually sloppy and makes everyone else down the line from him less productive.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed (specifically, in financial aid outreach) and I am THRILLED about this. I work with students from tough situations, and many of them consider for-profit schools as alternatives to mine. ITT is a big one. I’m so glad the Department of Education is finally sticking it to them!

      1. kjf0613*

        Any advice for a 26 year old going back to school- she works a full time job that apparently is too much for grants, but not enough to get through school without loans? Thanks!

  28. Lissa*

    I posted here a couple of weeks ago about being nervous about renegotiating for more money (I’m a semester by semester contract worker at a post secondary institute.) Well, my schedule for the fall semester just came in, and I was thinking I would talk to my supervisor about my rate when I went in to firm things up next week…then an hour later she sent me an email saying she’d been approved to offer me the amount I was going to ask for!

  29. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    How do I stay awake at work on little sleep? My wife had a surgery recently and can’t walk, so she wakes me up to get her things at night, and I have to feed the cats at 5:30 am which is usually her job. That’s an hour and a half before I normally wake up.

    Due to interruptions and having to do all chores, I’m not getting more than 5 hours of sleep a night. But I have to work- she gets disability but it is NOT enough to let me also take time off, and I have no PTO.

    Ideas?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Can you get up and move around at work a little?

      Are you allowed to listen to music? Really upbeat music or something like that?

      Sorry to hear this — I sympathize — it is so hard to work when one is just exhausted.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Can you make sure commonly-needed items are within reach of her to minimize wake-ups?

      Do the cats REALLY need to eat at 5:30? Surely they won’t starve if you wait another hour?

      I sympathize and admire your desire to help her, but surely there are some compromises. You can’t be a good caregiver if you’re not getting enough sleep.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Thanks, but a lot of the time I get woken up, it’s to get an icepack; you can’t let those sit, and single use packs are too expensive.

        As for the cats, they cry and attack each other and the bedroom door if the food is late; being in a small apartment, I just feed them because I would get woken up either way, earplugs or not.

          1. meg*

            Automatic feeder! Saved me a lot of sleep with my dear departed cat, and came in handy for weekend trips when I didn’t want to pay the petsitter. Plus, the cat starts to think of teaching as its feeder, not you, which can be very handy if you have cats that bug annoyingly before feeding time.

          2. YaH*

            YES. Pleeeeeease get an automatic cat feeder- I have two of the 5-dish feeders from Amazon, and the batteries last a year or more before needing to change them. You can set the timer to dispense food as frequently or infrequently as you wish, and the cats learn very quickly that the Human does not make the food, the Thing That Whirrs makes the food. So my morning time with kitties is quality snuggle time, when they come in to cuddle up with me after they’re happy and full and sleepy again.

          1. blackcat*

            +1

            You can also make homemade icepacks that are soft and stay cold a long time by putting a mixture of rubbing alcohol and water (1:2 ratio alcohol:water) in double-layered ziplock bags. It would do fine in a small cooler.

        3. LCL*

          Cooler by the bed, with some ice packs in it.
          Or, when you get up in the middle of the night, feed the cats too. Of course then you will be training them to expect food in the middle of the night…
          When you get home from work, once you have tended to your wife, take a nap.

          1. Natalie*

            Maybe start feeding them at night before you go to bed? That’s sustainable in the long run, and you can always adjust it back to the morning when your wife is recovered.

        4. ThatGirl*

          I would agree with possibly a cooler nearby. And the automatic feeder idea. I really think you have to get creative to get enough sleep.

          As for dealing with exhaustion I know people who swear by 5 hour energy, I’ve never tried it. Getting enough protein can help, too.

        5. Jaydee*

          Move the cat food and food bowls next to the bed so that one of you can easily reach it without having to actually leave the bed. Then at 5:30 just scoop the food into the bowl, roll over, and fall back asleep.

          Cooler full of icepacks near the bed would also be helpful for the night wakings for icepacks. Even if that doesn’t last the whole night, it might buy you longer spells between her requests for things. Like if one ice pack lasts an hour and you can keep two extras in the cooler, you could get three hours of sleep at a time instead of one.

          Go to bed much earlier. If you go to bed at 8:00 or 9:00, even if your wife wakes you up 2 or 3 times in the night and you’re up for half an hour each time, you have the potential to get 6-8 total hours of sleep per night. Then just get up at 5:30 when the cats wake you up and do a few of the chores you would have done late at night the night before. You’ll probably do them faster and more efficiently than you would have done them late at night when you’re tired and just want to go to bed.

          Who is helping your wife during the day? If you have friends or family who are helping out during the day, could they stay overnight (or at least stay late or arrive early) one or two nights a week so you get at least one or two nights of good sleep per week?

        6. TL -*

          They have cold packs that work by chemical reaction – basically it’s like a glow stick. They come room temp and then you bend and smash them and they get cold. You should look into those.

        7. JessaB*

          Ice pack suggestion – get a cooler, a bag of ice and stick the ice packs in it, and put it on a chair near your wife’s bed. You can get a fairly decent but cheap blown foam cooler. You can also keep a closed bottle of water/pop or whatever she likes to drink in it. Right by her hand. A bag of ice is CHEAP.

    3. Temperance*

      Can you set up a table by her side of the bed with anything she might want or need? I had a health issue earlier this year that involved taking pills every 6 hours, and I definitely didn’t wake up my husband for my 3:30 a.m. dose.

    4. Collie*

      Drink lots of cold water. Not only will the cold water help you stay awake, but it’ll get you up and to the bathroom a little more (yay, walking around, yay, cold water on your face with each trip after washing your hands) and it’s good for you. You could also consider a desk fan. Cold temperatures are good at keeping you awake and somewhat alert. Just don’t dress extra warmly to compensate!

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        I honestly think it being warm makes me sleepier here. The office is in a former mill building in my city’s warehouse district and so the HVAC doesn’t keep up so well.

        1. animaniactoo*

          In that case you might want to try some cooling bands to help combat that. If you hit up Amazon, they have a variety of neck and wrist ones. We got some for my always-overheated godmother when she was traveling to Morocco for 6 weeks, and she said they made a huge difference for her.

        2. Myrin*

          I have found that when I’m sluggishly tired, putting cold water on my face helps immensely. You might be able to do that in the bathroom from time to time?

    5. orchidsandtea*

      You may be able to find a minifridge on Craigslist for free or $50. Check Freecycle as well, and make a “wanted” post — sometimes people have one hanging out unused in a basement that they’ll happily give you if they hear it’s needed for surgery recovery.

    6. LizB*

      Can you get to bed earlier at all? It may mean some chores have to go un-done, but there may be things that can be done less frequently (alternate days instead of every day?) or put on the back burner entirely until your wife recovers.

      At work, drink lots of cold water, and see if you can work standing up some of the time. If not, go for little walks around the office every once in a while.

      I’m sorry you’re in this situation – working when exhausted is terrible!

    7. Molly Smith*

      It might be easier to try to push off whatever chores you can to help give you more of a break– some basics are just having really basic/easy meals and eating off paper plates and plastic knives (and obviously ordering out is even easier, but can become kind of expensive). If there are chores that you would normally do, I’d question if they could slide for a few weeks (like dusting). This isn’t going to last forever, and you may be better off just postponing stuff and trying to get a bit of extra sleep.

    8. Preux*

      A lot of other people have given good advice on getting more sleep, and ultimately that would be the ideal solution. Here’s some ways I use to stay awake when I don’t get enough sleep, though:

      -sparing use of caffeine. Besides having health problems that force me to limit caffeine intake, it just isn’t as effective if your body acclimated to it. I limit myself to one can of coke a day, with a snack, to mitigate the ‘crash’ after.
      -figure out what work tasks put you to sleep and which ones wake you up. Try and alternate them if you can, even if it’s usually more efficient to stack them up. You won’t be saving time by doing all the super boring reports in the afternoon if you fall asleep at your desk doing them, or make mistakes because you start drifting off.
      -when you get really drowsy, time for a quick break to do a little wake up routine. For me, it looks like this: quick walk to the restroom, then to the break room to grab a drink. Back to my desk for a short granola bar and drink snack break. The food and movement will snap you out of the drowsiness, and establishing a routine will send the message to your brain that it’s time to come back online and re-focus on work.

      I use these techniques when I get only 2-4 hours of sleep the night before (again, health issues that flare up) and they work pretty well for me. Naps after work can also help to some extent. Napping on your lunch break could be an option if you’re the kind of person who will be able to fully wake up after a short nap and not feel cranky and even more tired.

    10. Marisol*

      Can a friend watch the kitties for a couple days a week? Or would that stress them out too much? Also can whoever helps your wife during the day do some chores for you?

      Try to increase the quality of your sleep if you can’t increase the quantity. No blue devices after 8 pm (or ideally, after the sun goes down.) No regular electric lightbulbs either–only orange or red light. You can get an orange bulb and keep it in a dedicated lamp. You can also buy a special lightbulb that looks white but actually lacks the blue part of the light spectrum, although it is expensive at about 70 bucks. It lasts five years though. I have one but I can’t remember the maker–if you google around you will find it. It was developed by nasa. If 70 bucks is too expensive, get a cheap orange bulb. Your wife will sleep better to, and heal better as a result. The reason blue light keeps people awake because it signals to the pineal gland that it is daytime (because the sky is blue).

      Taking raw potato starch is anecdotally said to improve sleep quality and I have experienced this myself. You have to start slow and work up to a few tablespoons. Info about this is easily found on a google search.

      Do get extra sleep when you can, for example on the weekends, because contrary to popular belief, you can in fact make up a sleep deficit that has accrued, at least to a certain extent.

      Lastly, this is is really grey hat, but bodybuilders often take stimulants such as nootropics to give them energy for their workouts. Nootropics are cognitive enhancers, called “smart drugs.” You might even find a doctor who would give you a prescription-strength one for you since you have a legitimate reason for it.

      I know about this weird stuff because I have a diagnosed sleep disorder. I know how miserable it is to go without sleep!! I feel for you!!

      1. Marisol*

        oh yeah and regarding the light, they have daytime light bulbs and blue light devices that help with alertness. I have one device on my computer monitor that I use for two hours a day, called “syrcadian blue” and it was about $75.

    11. TootsNYC*

      Find ways to minimize the waking?

      Cats: Never mind, I see you can’t shut them in the garage. That’s too bad. Can you farm them out for a week?
      Also, can you set out all you need to feed them, so you can get up, feed them, and go RIGHT back to bed, as fast as possible? I’ve read stuff that says that you can return to sleep easily if you keep it short, don’t change your body temperature, and don’t turn on a light. So make the feeding of them as smooth as possible.

      Wife: Can you strategize w/ her about what she will really need at night? And how you can put it somewhere she can reach it? Honestly, there’s no way I’d want to torture my husband for anything short of “I’m going to throw up.” I would probably even wear a diaper if that’s what he needed in order to be able to function at work, so that he doesn’t GET FIRED or GET REPRIMANDED because he’s so tired.

      I see the ice pack situation. Can you try out whether you can keep them cold enough in a cooler by the bed, if you pack it solid full of ice packs (and ice)? And maybe it’s worth it to get some chemical ones that are only to be used at 3am, for a couple of days.

      Otherwise, see if you can find a way to nap at lunch. Even just resting.

      Automate as much as possible at work.

    12. Natalie*

      Chores: What can you give up, in any way?

      Hiring stuff out: Obviously this might not be in your budget, but check around. A large landscaping company might be pricy, but there may be someone in your neighborhood who does mowing for cheap. Is your wife alert enough to do some research into this?

      Asking for free help: Friends, relatives, neighbors. People are usually really happy to help in these kinds of situations. Accept help even for things that you don’t mind doing – it will free up time/money for other chores.

      Dropping stuff: Really think about what you do and don’t need to accomplish, chores-wise. Can you use disposables so you don’t have to do dishes every day? Can you live without vacuuming that often?

      1. Marisol*

        +1 on the disposable dishes. I don’t use plastic silverware for environmental reasons, but once I finally realized I could use paper plates, since I don’t have a dishwasher, instead of my normal dishes, I saved SO MUCH TIME. They’re cheap, they’re biodegradable, what’s not to love.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Is there a friend or family member near by that will help? I am picturing even one day a week, strategically mid-week when it is just too hard.

      When my husband was sick, I lined things up that he would need so he did not have to wake me up for every single thing. Can you borrow a bed tray so stuff is handy for her? I ended up sleeping in the chair or guest room because it was just easier on both of us. So a bed tray would have made sense for how we were handling things.

      Tips for staying awake while driving: Cold air in the face, that can mean AC in the summer or open window in the winter. And take your right shoe off, it will help you to feel the gas pedal better and help keep you aware of what you are doing. Of course, some states frown on this but it does work.

      Enlist your wife to help streamline things so that everything is a bit less work. Explain to her that you need her help with helping her. Most of us have a tendency to not get the sick person involved in the day-to-day stuff. Understand that this is a normal pitfall, and work to avoid it. Be fair, consider her limitations and adapt things to those limitations.

      My husband had 8 broken vertebrae. We found he could most of his self-care, write checks, talk on the speaker phone, and participate in decision-making. Yeah, he was pooped after that, but those were things he was able to do. I insisted that he had to participate in household stuff, to my amazement he was the easiest person I have ever taken care of. I attribute that in part to my openness about the changes we needed to make. I even used to joke, “Let’s not kill NSNR [meaning ME!]. I don’t mind running three towns over for aspirin at 10 pm. But let’s use planning so I don’t have to run at 10 pm.” It got the point across.

    14. Observer*

      Get some help in the house. The disability should help make that possible. Get home, take a nap and then go do all the things you need to do in the evening, that can’t be done by household help.

    15. zora.dee*

      In addition to taking short walks, can you set up a temporary standing desk for a bit? I find I get less tired when I’m standing. And I’ve thrown together a half-assed standing desk with some boxes and reams of paper stacked on top of my desk.

      Other than that, I second the revisiting all of the chores and seeing if you can get someone to take care of the cats for a bit, so you can get to sleep earlier at night.

    16. Chaordic One*

      Yes, stay hydrated yourself. If you have a job where you sit, get a small desk fan. Make a things easier for yourself by picking up some takeout food to take home so you don’t have to cook when you get home. (Do it at least a couple of times a week.) Take a nap when you get home and try to get to sleep earlier than usual.

    17. Girasol*

      If your schedule allows for breaks, hunt down an unattended corner for a very brief nap or go nap in the car.

  30. SophieChotek*

    AAM Community – how I wished it was Friday this past Tuesday.
    Long story, short.
    I applied for a new job 3 weeks ago, suddenly Tuesday morning I got a call from HR and they asked me to come in Thursday (yesterday) to interview (round 1, sort HR pre-screening).
    I was freaking out – but fortunately I had purchaed AAM’s book, so I read the interviewing section several times.
    And practiced the questions.
    The interview itself — eh.
    I don’t think I bombed it, but I don’t think I wowed it either.

    Need to write “follow-up” email today. I’ve heard that if you feel you answered a question poorly, you could address that in your follow-up note. Do you agree?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      It depends on how badly you answered the question. If you totally drew a blank and said something outrageously bad, then it’s fine to address it in the follow-up. But if it wasn’t egregious, I would just focus on reiterating your interest in the role.

      Good luck!

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Sure, if you have a specific thing to add that you forgot to say or something, it’s worth adding to the thank-you note. If nothing else, that gives you something to say beyond “thanks for the time”!

  31. Lucie in the Sky*

    I work at a company that has a couple different parent companies in one division. My boss is fine with me coming in late / leaving early on slow weeks cause some weeks we work 60-70 hours or travel a lot. He and I have no problems and he is talking about bringing in someone for me to manage because between the two of us right now our work loads are off the charts.

    Today, when I came in about 20 minutes late — one of the other guys who is a manager at the same level as my boss – high level manager — they have the same functions but for different sister companies, stood up from his managers cube (we have an open office plan where only the mangers have tall cube walls) and said “OH look! Lucie is finally here! Hey there Lucie! Good morning Lucie! I bet when you were out last night you thought you would just be able to power through today but hahah!!” – this is the second or third time he has done this in the last 6 months.

    I am so frustrated an annoyed. This is also the guy who made comments yesterday that people who were attacked at the American University in Kabul deserved to die cause they were stupid enough to go there… and made a big to do about trans bathroom stuff previous to that. He also is so proud that he lives a state away and commutes 90+ and is still in the office every day by 7:30. I don’t know how to get him to stop, so I mostly just ignore him, but it’s driving me NUTS. (I currently sit in a desk area with his team, cause the one next that where my team is is full right now, and he is hard to avoid)

    1. Dawn*

      Uh… do you have an HR department? Cause that Kabul statement plus the trans bathroom stuff absolutely needs to come to HR’s attention. Holy crap.

      Otherwise, throw it back in his face. “Kevin, what do you mean by that? I don’t understand what you’re saying- I wasn’t out late last night?” Make him explain the joke. Put him on the spot. Egg him on, document everything. Give him the rope to hang himself- he’s doing nothing with this stuff other than making himself look bad, so keep giving him fuel to make himself look bad. Also tell your manager.

      1. Lucie in the Sky*

        Oh he makes those statements to HR. HR and him are always going back and fourth but HR doesn’t really do anything, and our Recruiter who works in the office who hired me basically said that no one ever gets fired here… ever.

        That said, HR is overly obsessed with “desk time” to an insane amount that it drives me crazy, even though we have no official company policy on it. We’ve gotten office wide emails about people spending too long by the water cooler, or smoke breaks, or when people come back from a meeting / something that went through lunch “eating lunch in the lunch room outside of the hours of 12-1” — it’s a new HR person for >1 year and old HR was never like this.

    2. orchidsandtea*

      Speak to your manager about the comments about your timeliness, and to HIS manager about the trans and Kabul comments.

      And just to make sure he can’t play dumb say something like, “Friedrich, you may not be aware that Karl and I communicate regularly about my schedule. In order to meet the needs of our team, sometimes I arrive and leave at nonstandard times. I need you to stop making comments like that.”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m a big fan of the confused stare and “Wow. What an odd thing for you to say to me.”

    4. animaniactoo*

      “Wow, Fergus. I’m amazed you have so much free time that you’re able to monitor the comings and goings of *other departments*!” (um, no. not really. However, I would talk to your manager and raise this as shaming that you would really appreciate being shut down, because you just don’t need to deal with that. Your manager has more room to do something about this as he is a) your manager and b) on this guy’s level.)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “Try not to let it bother you, my boss is fine with the amount of time I put in.”

      “I can be exactly on time every day and make sure I leave exactly on time at night. Then we can watch what happens next. Would that work for you?”

      I had a boss who threatened to put in time clocks because people were one or two minutes late. I said, “Go ahead. Then you will find out what you ACTUALLY owe us in pay each week.” When they said, but you can’t be working off the clock, I said, “Then I guess you will find out how long it actually takes to get stuff done.” Conversation was over.

      Some people just enjoy a good fight/argument. You might be able to say, “Keep stirring things, Bob”, and not break stride, just walk right past him. I have worked with a few people that seem to have to argue or say things to incite people each day. Your way out of this one might be to point this out, “gotta say something to get people upset, don’t ya?” or “There you go again, thinking of more ways to upset people…”

  32. The Other Dawn*

    Anyone have suggestions for interview questions that would help me determine if someone would be good at analyzing suspicious banking activity? I’m hiring for a junior position, which means no experience in this area, but typically experience in banking. I’ve asked questions about how they cope with “gray” areas, many hours spent in front of a computer analyzing data, etc., but I’m not sure how to determine if they would be good at identifying suspicious activity. It can mostly be taught by showing them what to look for in general, but I find that they need to be someone who will go one step further and not just look at the surface. Any suggestions?

    1. moss*

      no but that’s my alternate-life dream job. Did you read the New Yorker article about Deutsche Bank? Loved it.

    2. Mirve*

      Is there any way you can do a sample skills test. A short example of what they would be doing so you can see whether they try to go that step further? Maybe only using one of the types of things they would need to look for so it does not require full training.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes, yes, this. There’s no interview question in the world that will ferret this out as well as actually seeing them doing the work will. Create a simulation, give them some brief guidance on what they’re looking for, and see how they do.

      2. Your Weird Uncle*

        Yeah, I would say the same thing….I do similar things in my role and I have to spot discrepancies in large, large sets of data fairly regularly. Maybe set up a moderately-large spreadsheet with a few discrepancies and give them twenty minutes to suss out what’s going on? If they have some good skills, even if they don’t give you a result you might at least see their thought-process (i.e., quick pivot tables, data sorts, filters, etc. are all tools that I use to spot patterns and errors, and I’d hope that an applicant would utilize at least one of those tools to try to get a grasp of what’s going on with the data).

        Good luck!

    3. animaniactoo*

      Note that I know *nothing* about banking, but as a person with a strong math background, I would ask how they look for patterns in their work, and what they do when they find them. I suspect that the person you’re looking for would automatically say “I look to see if I can figure out what is causing that pattern.” vs someone who might say “I note that it’s there so I can predict what’s coming next, or see if something looks unusual against the established pattern.”

      1. Ife*

        Maybe try the question out on some of your current analysts too, and see what kind of answers you get from the really good analysts.

    4. College Career Counselor*

      Sounds like you want someone who has both a grasp of the big picture/gestalt of what something should look like AND the ability to dig deeper to ferret out discrepancies, outliers, or other weirdness. (The same way a good genealogist wouldn’t just accept one source as gospel, but would independently verify/cross-check information to see that it is accurate.)

      How about “Can you tell me your experience with data or other information and verifying its authenticity/accuracy? What did you look for and what were the steps you took?” I’d follow that up with “how much of this kind of work have you done and what is your comfort level with it?”

    5. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      I had an interview once for a hiring position that would require reviewing background checks for potential candidates (We work with kids, they are necessary). They sent me some (fake) background check information and asked how I would proceed with each of the 4 candidates. Maybe you could make some mock banking info and try something similar?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “This job requires constant vigilance for suspicious activity. Tell me about a time when you had to figure out that some thing was wrong with some numbers that you had in front of you. What caused you to believe there was a problem in the first place?”

  33. Amy*

    I used an old professor for a reference for a new job about a year ago. He specifically requested that I follow up with him if I got the job, and I just… didn’t. There were extenuating life circumstances at first but now it’s been way too long for that to be a plausible reason. I got into that cycle where it had been so long that I was embarrassed so I put it off, which just meant delaying it further. I am starting to job search again (1 year is normal in my field) and would like to use him as a reference (this is only my 2nd professional job and the class I took from him is relevant), but every time I try to write an e-mail I’m not sure what to say. If I apologize for not following up, I feel like it won’t seem sincere since I’m now just asking for something new. Should I just write off using him as a reference?

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t worry too much about it; there’s a high flake rate on those notifications in general. If he doesn’t want to do it, he won’t do it.

    3. Purest Green*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. People often request updates on things like that just to be friendly.

    4. Yup*

      Second the not worrying about it – just directly address not following up and apologize (not too much!), and I’m sure it’ll be just fine!

      1. bibliovore*

        It’s never to late to send an update. Just say you were swamped getting up to speed and tell the professor a little about your responsibilities.

  34. Nervous Accountant*

    Last week I wrote about getting a scathing email from my boss. Our new team leader (who previously was a peer) had a talk with me, and it felt weird, but I got over it. I did spend the weekend in super anxiety mode because I thought I’d be fired on Monday (glory be to God, that didn’t happen, and infact I got my shit together this week).

    Anyway, so Im writing because this is not the 1st time I’ve gotten a harsh email from my boss. I’m apprehensive about posting their exact email on here but here goes—-

    1. You are one of the few people in the company who get a lot of complaints because of unresponsiveness and not fulfilling the work and I am honestly getting tired of waiting for you to improve your performance.

    2. What is wrong with you???? You’ve had at least two feedback on unresponsiveness and you don’t even have a lot of appts. Explain why you keep dropping the ball on your clients and what you plan to do to improve your performance.

    They both came after a client cancelled because I didn’t respond to their email in time.

    If it matters–they came 15 months apart. I was written up after the 1st one, nothing after this one. I’ve been here 1.5 years which is a long time for this company (very high turnover). I have gotten really good feedback on my performance in between these two emails, and did very well during our tax season and received a good raise and performance eval.

    I’m not sure if this also matters, but she’s actually very pleasant and soft spoken in person (but definitely firm and authoritative) when speaking and We sit in an open office.

    These are my questions–
    1. Are those emails harsh or am I being oversensitive?
    2. If they are harsh, what’s a good professional way to respond? Can I remind her of the good feedback? I always own up to my mistakes (like this or minor ones) and shes even acknowledged that as a good thing.
    Is it in my best interest to stand up for myself in that way?
    3. Are 2 mistakes like this in 15 months unreasonable?

    1. Leatherwings*

      They’re harsh. I wouldn’t ever speak to an employee like that, and especially not in email. They’re not constructive, and they sound like she dashed them off in frustration rather than sitting down with you and having a thoughtful conversation about improving your performance.

      In terms of responding, I would request to meet in person, don’t reply via email. Try something like “I got your emails, and I understand that I recently dropped the ball on X, and that I did the same thing about a year and a half ago, but I was surprised since I’ve also had positive feedback on Y and Z. Can we discuss how I can improve my performance?”

      For your third question, I think this depends on your field and the nature of your mistake. Losing big clients twice in a year and a half doesn’t sound great to me, for example. But missing two emails in a year and a half, one of which happened to not have good consequences seems like it might warrant a quick conversation and that’s it.

      I’m so sorry, this sounds stressful. I think addressing it head on and in person is your best bet.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      This is not the kind of conversation that should be happening in an email at all!

      She should have given you the negative feedback in person, and if there’s an email, it’s to document what you talked about. But email shouldn’t be the way you find out that your boss has an issue with your performance!

    3. Potate*

      IMO, those are unwarrantedly harsh emails, especially since these events happened well more than a year apart. That said, can I ask about the clients who cancelled on you? How long was the delay before your response? I’m asking because whether it’s a reasonable length of time (5 minutes vs 5 days) determines whether you should address this with your boss while justifying your choices (5 minutes) or talking solutions to the delay (5 days).

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        We’re told that we should respond within 24 hours, 48 the latest. With the 1st one, we were in touch over a period of a few months, but things weren’t getting done fast enough
        With teh second email, it was 2 clients who had waited 2 days before making the complaint.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        Btw, I forgot to say but I love your username. I had a blog named “Potatoes gonna potate” :)

    4. fposte*

      They are harsh; I don’t think their tone is useful. However, that doesn’t have anything to do with the legitimacy of the criticism, which we’re really not in a position to assess without being at your job ourselves; however, it looks like unresponsiveness is something there’s ongoing concern about with you (it sounds like it’s two emails but more than one complaint apiece), so it’s not unreasonable for her to pay attention to your performance in that area. She’s also explicitly requested you assess how these balls got dropped and how you plan to improve, so that’s a clear description of the kind of response you’d be advised to make.

      If the problem is that you don’t know what the desired response time is, ask for a metric. If the problem is that you know it but aren’t meeting it, that’s more a workflow thing; in general, it’s better to email within the desired window saying that the question was received and a fuller response will be forthcoming by the end of the week than to wait too long for the full response.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Yeah, I’m not questioning the legitimacy. It’s not that I’m unresponsive, but yeah, there are times when I don’t respond to a client right away. I’d say 98% of the time, I do respond within time.

        I also fully 100% admit that after tax season ended, I burned out. I did the absolute bare minimum for a while and I had no idea how to break out of it, so maybe this was a mixed blessing, bc I’ve been on top of it this week.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          So, in many contexts 98% sounds like a good rate — in school, it would be an A! — but in the world of work, if you’re not responding in a timely manner to two clients out of every 100, that would actually be a problem. It sounds a little like you see it as a reasonable option if it only happens sometimes, but your boss isn’t going to see it that way — and that’s probably what’s happened here. I think you have to see it as truly not optional — you can’t be even a little cavalier about it. And to see it as not optional, you probably have to really internalize whatever your business’s reasons are for requiring that you get back to people more quickly.

        2. AnonAcademic*

          ” I did the absolute bare minimum for a while and I had no idea how to break out of it”

          I think this is the bigger issue. If you have periods of low productivity/slow turnaround that your boss has reprimanded you for before, I think it’s particularly important to be mindful of the optics of these situations and to know how to break yourself out of it before it becomes a problem. For example it’s generally much better to take time off to deal with burnout, then be in the office but not producing when there are watchful eyes about. When my motivation is flagging (like it is now) I use a modification of the pomodoro technique; my main sign of low motivation is procrastination so that method helps with the “getting started” hard part. I’m not producing at rock star levels but I’m doing solidly above the minimum which for me is a good outcome in this context.

    5. AFRC*

      I have a question – am I understanding correctly that the team leader and your boss are two different people?

      It sounds like there are two things happening here:
      1. You are making mistakes – 2 missed meetings in 15 months may be a huge thing to her and your company (they would be for me because it shows a little bit of a pattern of missed important communication). I’m not sure what the other mistakes are, it sounds like unresponsiveness is a big one, and making many mistakes is an issue. The cause might be lack of training, confusion about tasks, maybe you’re overwhelmed, I’m not sure. But you should make steps to correct those issues. Talk to the team leader (and possibly the boss), ask for help, etc. If they are bringing things to your attention, mentioning good feedback, while it may be true, sounds like you’re making an excuse for your behavior, instead of actually changing the behavior. Acknowledging that you messed up, but then not making behavior change, is not useful. But good managers should be able to help you change by giving you extra training, providing suggestions for how to improve, etc.

      2. Her language is totally unprofessional. “What is wrong with you” with 4 question marks is obnoxious. Are you saying that she just sends these messages in emails and then is polite to you in person? That’s a pretty terrible way to manage and interact with people in general, especially if you’re not getting feedback on specific examples and how to fix them. But you should ask for help (including specifics) if you’re struggling. The tone of her email is tough to deal with when you have specific performance issues, but the way you’re being told about them is so rude. The best way to respond would be in a professional tone – asking for a time to meet in person with the boss and the team lead to review your performance and ways to improve. Others may have suggestions about addressing the tone.

      Mostly, focus on what you can do to improve your work. No excuses – just take an active role in doing a better job. That will show that you really care about your future with the company. Good luck.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Yes, they are two different people. We also have a manager, but he’s on leave right now. So there’s team lead, manager, and my boss (the one who sent the email).

        They do coach a lot here and are helpful, to their credit.

        In person, she is very pleasant. The 1st time, it was my day off and I wasn’t in the office, but I don’t think she knew. The most recent email, we didn’t speak aside from a Good morning and I stayed out of her way.

        1. AFRC*

          Oh that is very interesting about the day off. Did you have an out of office message that would have alerted the client that you weren’t there? That’s a very relevant detail – thanks for clarifying!

    6. HR Expat*

      Taken just as they are, they do sound a bit harsh. I’m wondering if your boss has received other complaints about your response time, maybe from internal peers, that she hasn’t specifically addressed. I would go back to her and ask her about this. “Jane, I’m concerned about the email you sent me. I know we’ve discussed these two incidents, and I’d like to make sure I’m resolving these issues. I’m working on X, Y, and Z to improve. Are there other examples that you’ve received that wouldn’t be covered by X, Y, and Z?”

    7. Jaguar*

      The e-mails are harsh and reflect badly on your team leader. A good leader should be there to help people work through their problems and what those messages are doing is offloading the problems onto you – think the difference between, “We need to talk and see if there’s a way we can avoid this happening again” versus “You need to stop losing clients.” The very “waiting for you to improve” part really underscores it – your leader should be involved with you in your improvement.

      The absolute best way to respond – and I’m sure some people will disagree with me – is to try and not let it bother you. I’m not suggesting internalising or burying your emotional reaction to it. I’m suggesting trying to get to a place where it will roll off your back and you can just focus on the idea your leader is trying to communicate as opposed to the way they are communicating it. Much easier said than done, of course, but if you can be a person that just ignores other people’s shittiness and who it doesn’t affect, you’ll be much happier. But, again, be sure that you’re not burying an emotional response or internalising a message of worthlessness. Try to be someone who’s confidence isn’t rattled by other people’s behaviour.

      I can’t really speak to how unreasonable it is because there aren’t enough details to fairly comment.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well, the emails came from my boss; my team leader who spoke to me last week was just recently promoted to that position and I don’t have any issues w him (super good so far) and it was a productive talk with him I think. The “waiting for you to improve” really stunned me at the time, I was seasonal for a few months and was then hired on FT/perm and I had gotten nothing but encouraging feedback at the time so I was pretty shocked.

        “But, again, be sure that you’re not burying an emotional response or internalising a message of worthlessness.”— I think this is it, I do internalize it. I spent all weekend depressed and stressed out over this email.

        1. Jaguar*

          If it helps, best case scenario is your boss is a good person and just doesn’t deal with their frustrations well. Talking to you like that is their way of dealing with their frustration. It’s not how they think of you, it’s how they think of you when all they’re thinking about is one of the problems you caused. They aren’t talking about you only as it relates to that one issue because it’s all they can think of.

          Again, this is best case scenario and even in that case, your boss is handling things very, very poorly. But it’s important that you put it in its proper context: your boss is venting about the one problem they just saw, not giving you a comprehensive, holistic review of how you’re doing. It’s a reflection of your boss and not a reflection of you.

          I used to work under a guy that would constantly badmouth all his other reports to me. So, obviously, my immediate (unspoken) question is, “I wonder how he talks about me when I’m not around?” Sure enough, he thought I was out of earshot, so he started calling me an idiot to someone else. However, when I gave my notice, he started offering me raises and begging me to extend my notice period. I also got a call a couple months after I left from him to accept a higher position in the company (I declined). It wasn’t a reflection of my work, it was him being a lousy human being. There is a coping mechanism for that. It’s a strange thing to recommend, and you’re better equipped to know how to handle it, but when people act awfully and you can’t rely on their criticism, the mechanism to not let it bother you is to stop respecting them. Your boss is unfairly trying to take your self-worth and is doing it in a deplorable way. They are not acting in a way that earns respect. Someone you don’t respect can’t affect your self-image.

    8. animaniactoo*

      It sounds like even though you’ve gotten good feedback, there is a larger issue that may not be being addressed with you. Possibly through a thought process that offering encouragement/positive feedback is a better way to reinforce the work they want to see. But then only giving the bad feedback when there is a concrete result.

      So was this unprofessional? Harsh? If what I’m theorizing is correct, then absolutely. But primarily because this is completely out of the blue *as far as you are aware*.

      2 mistakes in 15 months is not unreasonable, depending on A) the level of mistake (how big a deal is it if a client cancels in your company? Only you can evaluate that), and B) whether or not they are really only 2 mistakes vs a series of minor mistakes that only had big implications twice.

      Professionally, I would respond to this by saying “It sounds like you’re getting more complaints about me and my work than I am aware of, as I am only aware of good feedback about my work? Can we meet to discuss the complaints you’re getting? I would really like to be aware of the areas that I need to improve on and discuss what things I might be able to do towards that.” At this point, a week later, you would have to say something along the lines of “I’ve given this a lot of thought this week, and it seems to me that…” as a preface for why you haven’t responded sooner.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is good stuff here. And do it in person, email does not work well with this type of stuff.

    9. copy run start*

      Those emails are way over the line. So far over I can’t even see the line from here. Honestly I’d want an apology for the tone, but asking wouldn’t be the best move.

      I don’t think two mistakes in 15 months really means much of anything. Sometimes people blame one easy thing for ending a relationship when there’s really an underlying issue they don’t want to voice. Perhaps they’re blaming your unresponsiveness to one email when really they can’t afford your companies services.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        That’s a good point but I wish there was a way to bring that up! For one of the people that cancelled, he was already really irate and upset by the time I got to him, due to something the salesperson messed up (and he DID mess it up!) I tried to explain that he was already unhappy and I did my best to recover, but I didn’t perform well on that meeting due to the salespersons mistake etc.

        1. copy run start*

          Unfortunately the last point of contact often ends up being the scapegoat for everyone else’s failings. I don’t know how you would salvage that situation–I’d have probably just asked him when he would like to terminate services–but know that it was not something you could fix. Sometimes the world is crazy unfair.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Oh nooooo, that’s the easiest way to get fired!!!! As much as we all would love to say that to some really jerk clients, no one would ever say that unless they were looking to get fired.

            1. copy run start*

              I know :) I’m in tech support so I sometimes end up in situations where there is nothing broken or wrong with the service provided and, therefore, literally nothing I can do to resolve the customers problem. Or things just break and it’s beyond anyone’s control–it’s inevitable–and it doesn’t get fixed as fast as someone with 0 technical knowledge thinks it should. Sometimes what the customer really needs is a different service provider or service than we can offer them.

              What’s nice is when they cancel and come back because we’re better than the competition.

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The tone and wording is over-the-line harsh. I can’t imagine talking to someone that way. (For what it’s worth, you tend to see this kind of overly harsh tone/nice-in-person style from managers who don’t really know how to manage — so they swing too far in both directions. I’d bet that she’s had concerns about this for a while and just hasn’t given you feedback about it until now, because that’s also typical of this style of manager — they don’t do their job re: feedback and then when it finally comes out, it comes out too harshly.)

      As far as practical advice for you, I’d focus on the issues she’s raising. Two mistakes in 15 months might be nothing, or it could be a very big deal, depending on what those mistakes are. (For example, I’d be hugely concerned about someone who snapped at a client twice in 15 months, or who no-showed on a client meeting, or so forth.) She’s telling you it’s a big deal to her (and I’d argue that not meeting timeliness standards for responding to clients is a big deal), so that’s where I’d focus your response — on what you’re doing to ensure it doesn’t continue.

      I don’t think you have great standing here to address the harshness; it’s going to look like you’re focused on the wrong thing. Focus on the performance concern.

      1. fposte*

        It also sounds like it’s two emails about more than one incidence of unresponsiveness each, so I think the boss isn’t thinking of it as two mistakes but several for the first email and two for the second. I’m betting the boss is one of those people who lets her annoyance simmer over a single incident but doesn’t say anything, so by the time you hear about the errors there are many of them and she’s super mad.

    11. AshKetchum*

      Ugh. Your manager really should’ve had this conversation with you in person – NOT via email – so, you are not being oversensitive.

      I would not remind her of your good feedback because that might sound defensive and like you’re not really processing the feedback that you’re currently getting. If I were you I would develop a plan to fix this problem and then relay that to your manager. Ask her if she has any suggestions on how to better manage your time so you can respond to clients more promptly. Be proactive about finding a solution and then really commit to making a change. I think that’s what you should be focusing on instead of reminding her about your good feedback.

      Honestly, being unresponsive is kind of big deal and it’s having consequences because now clients are cancelling. I think being able to respond to clients, coworkers,etc within a reasonable time frame is an expectation that many managers have and it’s now becoming a pattern that you can’t do that. I wouldn’t have reacted as strongly as your manager but I would be really concerned about this.

    12. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Good lord. I would NEVER speak to someone that way, Nervous Accountant! It probably makes you Nervouser Accountant. Aww.

      That’s harsh. Like, way harsh. Like, super unprofessional has-this-woman-had-any-training harsh. I would be beside myself if I got an email like that.

      I think your response should acknowledge that you messed up, address what you plan to fix it, and maybe talk about re-earning her trust. Like:

      Dear Harshboss,

      You’re right, I dropped the ball on those. I’ve been trying to figure out what happened because I’m generally so on top of things, and it’s unlike me to make so many mistakes. I suspect I was a little burnt out after tax season this year and maybe should have taken a little break from work to get my head back in my game. I’m also using an alert system in my email now to let me know when an email from a client has gone more than 12 hours unanswered so I can prioritize responding. I hope those changes will fix that.

      On a separate note, I’m concerned that you seem really angry about this, and I would hope that my record of great feedback from several of our top clients won’t be overshadowed by these mistakes.”

      1. a*

        I don’t know if it’s a good idea to tell the boss “You seem really angry about this.” Yes, the boss’ tone is harsh, but I think telling someone that they seem very angry is just going to make them more angry. It might be better to focus the response on just the content in your first paragraph, which is a great response.

        The harshness of the boss’ emails seems like something that would be better to talk about in person – maybe after a bit of time has passed, so that the boss can tell that Nervous Accountant is taking her concerns seriously.

    13. Jenny*

      One thing that I emphasize to my staff who have customer service rolls is that we need to have 100% good customer service behaviour from the staff. There will be mistakes made in other processes – type-os when inputting, letters that get lost in the mail, customers who misunderstand something etc – so the actual person to person customer contact needs to be impeccable. It’s the only option. It’s not like school when you can decide which things you care about, how much you care, and when you care. Instead, it’s a business (or public service org in my case) where the leaders have already made that decision and the decision is that you have to care about the customer contact part of service 100% of the time.

      1. Jenny*

        So, that’s to say – that I’m looking for my staff to notice and care if they make a mistake with customer contact and then not ever repeat that mistake. If a staff person doesn’t seem to care about that, then I also start looking at their work ethic in general to see if there is a pattern, and then after a chance to improve I remove them from the roll.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Good professional response and a story:

      My husband was a week late returning to a customer with service. He came home so upset he was absolutely beside himself, he said “my boss is going to write me”. My husband had never been written up for anything in his life, this was new turf to him and he was UPSET.

      So we sat down and we chatted.
      I said, “Did you do this? Did you forget?”
      He said, “yes.”
      I said, “Half your problem is solved.”

      See, the first thing bosses want to know is “Do you acknowledge that you made a mistake?” Now they may put it on a par with Murder I and you may think of it as on a par with gossiping or being two minutes late for work. But it does not matter what you think. If they think it’s a big deal, then you have a big deal on your hands.
      So acknowledge the mistake so you don’t have to get beat up even more.

      Next step. In my husband’s story he could salvage the relationship with the customer. He could go and apologize to the manager and then do the service call. So he told the boss what he was going to do for the customer. This does not apply to your situation because that ship has sailed, but for general knowledge, if you can do this step, then it should be done.

      Third step. He apologized to the boss for causing issues. You may or may not wish to apologize depending on all the particulars of your setting. However, part b here still applies to you. Part B: Develop a workable plan so that this will never happen again. So, let’s say you decide your plan will be that an hour before the COB each day you will check all your emails to make sure you have answered each one. Share your plan with your boss and conclude with “I see this is a problem so I have built a solution that I will work with to avoid having this problem again. Here is my plan [fill in with plan].

      As an aside: Some day I hope to see you change your name to “Confident Accountant”. Confidence is something that is built over time. Part of where confidence comes from is preparedness. Hitting problems at work is fairly normal so just build a plan for each problem that you face. Yes, at first this is exhausting, I always have to get extra rest at night when I am doing this. But the effect is culmulative and as the problems subside, you will be less exhausted and less nervous.

      While you should not mention to your boss about your apathy due to exhaustion, you should privately build a personal plan for how you will deal with the exhaustion and how you will deal with the apathy that can set in. It’s pretty normal for tired/drained people to become detached from what they are doing and that sounds like what happened to you.

      When I feel myself starting to become detached I have several different approaches that I use to change my mindset. One is bribery. “If I pay attention and do a good job today I can get a coffee for the ride home.” Another is punishment: “I don’t think I gave my best yesterday so today I have knuckle down and really do a bang up job. Not a choice, I must do this.” And yet other times the only thing that works is for me to scare the crap out of me, “I must do the job fully and correctly or I will be standing in the unemployment line.”

      As far as the fatigue is concerned, look at how much rest you are getting. Make sure you are hydrating and eating real meals with salads and such. You may like to consider protein drinks during your busy season.

      I think the emails are harsh but I also think that many bosses speak this way. I try to separate the tone of voice from the message. Think about the actual issue and address the issue. Ignore the tone of voice. You can be insulted/upset/ etc. No one can tell you what you should be feeling. However, all those emotions are not going to solve your problem. Action plans solve problems, the quicker you go to an action plan the sooner the situation will calm down and you will feel better.

      I think that these are more than mistakes, these are two lost customers in 1.5 years. Yeah, losing customers is a big deal in most places. I will say that I am not really impressed with how your boss treats you. Usually with poor treatment comes heavy-handed supervision as we see here; it’s raining in your life over these two customers. In your situation, I would ask the boss if she can speak with you in person rather than emailing you when this level of concern comes up. Tell her that you want to know, so you can fix this things asap.

      Bottom line, I am sorry you are going through this. I can see why there is a high turn over in help at your place.

  35. GravyBoat*

    How do I explain why I’m leaving this job? I’m at a job that sweeps things like sexism, sexual harassment, and animal abuse under the rug, but I know it also looks bad when you up and quit a job. Also, I know you aren’t supposed to bad mouth past employers. But I don’t know what I’m supposed to do here!

    1. Temperance*

      1. It doesn’t “look bad” to quit a job, so long as you have something lined up or a good reason.

      2. Talk about why you’re looking for new work, and what you hope to do in the future. Not about the company.

      2a. If it’s that bad, you can file a complaint with OSHA and/or the EEOC, depending on the facts.

      1. GravyBoat*

        Thank you. I’ve wanted to file a complaint, but I’m not certain if there’s anything to be done, considering it’s not documented. But, for example, my manager says she doesn’t want to hire women, and she forces female employees out of the store, but does it by finding things that are technically against our policiws and getting them in trouble for that. However, the male employees are held to no standards at all.

        2. Gazebo Slayer (formerly I'm a Little Teapot)*

          Ha, one would think she’d see the irony.

          My theory regarding misogynistic women, beyond just internalized sexism, is that they generally want to be the only woman in a workplace/other milieu because it makes them *special* – “no other women are good enough for this, but I am!” Yuck.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Oh, you must be working for my old boss. I had a boss that did this. Is there an 800 number you can call to report this type of thing?

          (I don’t really think you have my old boss. There are plenty of women and men out there who do not want people of their own gender working for them.)

      2. Marisol*

        I don’t think it looks bad to leave a job as long as you give two weeks’ notice (or as much notice as is customary in your industry). I don’t think you owe anyone a reason for your departure, such as having another job lined up or anything else. You could just say you are pursuing other opportunities if you want to give a vague answer.

    2. TeaPotDesigner*

      I’d say just use the old cliche of “searching for a new career path” when they ask about this. Make it about the new company instead of the old one, like telling ChocolateTeaPotWarehouse managers, oh I always wanted to work with Chocolate tea pot distribution, but my old company only ever made Ganache Sofas, which after three years I am really tired of.

    3. Hermione*

      It probably depends how long you’ve worked there.

      *If 2+ years, you’re just looking for your next opportunity.
      *If less, but you have significant experience in the field and are applying for next level or managerial positions where you weren’t in one previously, say that you’re very interested in x position because (it will allow you to manage people/expand your skills in x, its focus on y, etc.).
      *If you’ve only been there a few weeks or months, either leave it off of your resume completely (but then, longer gap between employment to explain) or say that culturally, it wasn’t a great fit for you, though you appreciated xyz about the job’s functions and are looking forward to continuing to do those functions in this new position.

    4. Rache*

      I think honesty might be the best policy on this one. Depending on who you’re talking to (current employer on why you’re leaving): I cannot continue to stand by while things like sexism, sexual harassment and animal abuse are swept under the rug. For my own sanity and peace of mind, I need to move on. (prospective employer on why you left): There were many factors, but outright abuse and harassment were what caused me to move on, and unfortunately it made giving notice impossible.

      Best of luck to you… this sounds horrid.

    5. DoDah*

      Retail, right? Eh, short-term stays are normal. ToxicJob “isn’t a good fit for your skills.”

      Bonne chance with new opportunities!

  36. NASA*

    How do you see job norms changing in the next 20-40 years?

    You know how parents can give well-meaning, but outdated advice (especially when applying to jobs)? I wonder what things will change when my future children apply to their first job.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Oh, that’s a fun question. For an obvious one, I think a lot of the ‘following up’ will become completely digital. Calls & handwritten notes -> emails and whatever new tech becomes standard. I think remote work and Skype meetings and webinars will become incredibly ordinary, helping out people who live in rural areas or who have highly specific skillsets.

      I suspect freelancing and overlapping part-time jobs will stay common.

      I suspect that parents will start counseling their kids about their online footprint. Don’t blog under your real name, don’t sign up for any “acting” databases with embarrassing 17yo-acne photos, snap up your name’s URL early, etc.

      I hope that there’s a renewed interest in hands-on skills, ie artisan guilds and advanced craftsmanship apprenticeships. I know the pendulum always swings between the generalist / jack-of-all trades and the specialist / master in a given field, but I hope we can preserve some of the advanced skills in the trades.

    2. Manders*

      Oooh, interesting question.

      1) I think the whole idea of “loyalty” to employers will die out as fewer people stay in one job for their whole careers. I’m sure there will always be some managers who don’t grasp the concept, but I think most will be used to the idea that people move around over the course of their careers.
      2) I suspect that a big regulatory crackdown is coming on “gig economy”-type jobs, and companies that depend on that kind of labor will be forced to treat the people who work for them like employees.
      3) Either telecommuting will become far more widespread, or jobs will clump up in massive cities with few job opportunities in rural areas between them.
      4) Brand new technologies like 3d printing are a wild card: they may kill off a whole lot of manufacturing jobs, but they may also create a whole new set of job opportunities.

      1. NASA*

        Aw, super relaxed dress codes make me kinda sad and I don’t even dress nicely for work 95% of the time! My current role allows me to be more casual than business, but I’ll dress up a bit when I’m at headquarters.

        Other than start-ups (corduroy and hoodies anyone?), I can’t imagine my government more-casual-than-business job getting even more casual :)

    4. the cake is a pie*

      1. This is really fun! My first thought was similar to Manders’s point about the decline of loyalty. I think job hopping will become much more common possibly with ~5 years at each job.
      2. Taking that further, I wonder if we’ll see any kind of decline in permanent workforces and instead have companies bringing in people with certain skillsets for just the length of a project.
      3. I think self-driving cars will have a big effect on work norms. People can live even further away because they can do more work (or sleep or watch movies) on the drive in. And we’ll have questions like, “can my boss require me to set up a car office?”
      4. I bet we see office dress codes becoming more across-the-board casual, especially in all roles that aren’t client-facing.
      5. I wonder if more companies will ever go to “blind” resumes, meaning all names and identifying information will be stripped out to help lessen unintentional bias in hiring (as studies like that NBER one about “racial” names affecting hiring choices).
      6. “Mom! Dad! Your advice about interviewing is sooooo outdated now that we have VR interviews.”

      1. NASA*

        Self Driving cars!!! Yes! I though about how much safer it could potentially be and how I could have slept in my car rather than on a train, but I didn’t actually think about the distance. True story.

        I used to have a 2 hour commute each way and now its 10-15 minutes. I often see LWs or commenters say how they would never do a commute more than X minutes, so that could be a game changer for sure.

    5. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      I think you’ll see a lot more women in the leadership positions, and maybe they’ll even get the same level of respect as the men. Seriously – I think it just won’t be a thing that you notice anymore, like people of my generation don’t bat at eye at openly gay people.

      I think it won’t be abnormal to do more interviews by teleconference than in-person because companies will have more scattered workforces.

      1. NASA*

        YES. TO. THIS!!!

        (Hopefully one of those leaders will be me!)

        And we’ll be on a 12G network in 20 years…haha.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Our laws and regs are growing at an exponential rate. I fully expect to see small municipalities and small orgs absolutely crushed by the laws/regs. These smaller places will shut down as they lack the people and the money to pay for all the mandated requirements. We will see libraries, courts and local governments just close. It’s already starting to happen.

      The gap between services in rural communities and populous areas will widen. I am mostly talking about cells and internet but other services such as municpal water, electricity and landline phones will have issues as very little money is put into existing infrastructure.

      I think these future employees will deal with layers of complexity that we cannot imagine. Constant learning will probably become more the norm. Currently, some professionals must take continuing ed courses. In the future I think that most workers will have to take regular courses in something, the idea of “finishing” a degree will fade. If you wish to stay employed you will have to take courses until you retire.

      I think the people that will make out well, will be the ones who adapt to new ideas quickly. I am not saying “learn quickly”, I am focusing on acceptance. The person who is willing to accept/deal with changes will fair better than the reluctant ones. Yes, we have this now but it is going to get to be a bigger and bigger deal.

      A pearl of wisdom my father gave me and I think it is even more valuable now: Children need to learn some basic science, applied science, as in how things around us work. I think that encouraging kids not to back away from things they don’t know or don’t understand will give them a huge leg up in life. They will live in a world where things are constantly new and constantly unfamiliar.

    7. Girasol*

      If the US gig economy grows as it looks like it will, and most employees are temps, then I’d expect to see some sort of nationalization of benefits. My company’s temps were expected to manage their own insurance and be online every day from the start of the contract to the end, even when a two months gig ended up stretching over a year. So I imagine in the future, in the US, reasonably priced portable temp employee insurance, sick leave, and minimum vacation requirements for contract staff.

  37. Potate*

    I work in a law office and the office “officially” closes at 5:30PM. We have some people who head out at 5:30PM on the dot, and some people who choose to stay a little later to wrap up work and such. I’m having a problem with my boss, the owner of the company, treating “after hours” office time as internal meeting time. As in, it’ll be 5:25PM and he’ll walk up to my desk and suggest having a meeting about X or Y topic. These meetings will run anywhere from 40 minutes to 2 hours and I end up getting home much later than I usually would. He does this about once or twice a week.

    I’m having a hard time finding scripts to turn my boss down, especially since I very rarely say “No” to my boss in any other context. For the record, I do like my boss, and he’s usually a pretty reasonable regarding work, but “Sorry, I’ve got dinner plans” only flies so many times, especially when he’s doing this so often. Any suggestions would be very much welcomed!

    2. Temperance*

      Are you an attorney? If not, are you an hourly employee or an exempt employee?

      If you’re not an attorney, I find this unreasonable. Why can’t you enroll in a class after work (not saying that you actually have to DO this, just SAY it), or have a gym commitment?

      What my boss taught me to do is to say that I’m unavailable at X time, and then offer the next morning. Would that work for you?

      1. Potate*

        I am not an attorney– I’m the office admin/client service person, and I’m exempt.

        After hour classes are a good idea! I might start taking using that as an excuse. My boss is a huge night owl, so I think he thinks of evenings as “work time”, and rarely comes in on time/right before his first meeting of the day, so suggesting a morning meeting would be fine, but I don’t know if it would actually happen.

        1. Sadsack*

          I wonder if it is really a good idea to have such a specific fake activity. What if he becomes interested and starts asking for details? I would just politely ask if you can go see him first thing the next day because you need to be somewhere right after work, without saying where. Not dinner though, just somewhere. See what he says.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      One tactic I like is to never say “no”, but to propose other solutions or ask follow-up questions. It’s mainly a technique to keep customers/clients happy and content, but it can work internally, too. Maybe the next time, instead of saying no, ask something like “Yes, I wanted to meet with you about that! How about 8am tomorrow? I was just wrapping up/about to head out in a few minutes [optional, but recommended if he doesn’t seem to get the point].”

      1. Potate*

        That’s a good script, and I’ll try it next time! That said, any recommendations for if he keeps on insisting (“I’d really like to get it done tonight. It’ll just be a few minutes.”) when you know full well it’ll be another hour+? Would it be better just to go along with it then?

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          If you don’t want to give in, the best way to counter is just say “I’m sorry, I can’t, how about [time] tomorrow?” DO NOT let yourself add “because [reason]”, because pushy people will always find a reason that your reason is less important/unimportant. Do not JADE — that stands for Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain. Those are the things that people can manipulate those of us who have trouble saying no get us to do in order to gain a tactical advantage, and it almost always works, hence the saying “‘No’ is a complete sentence”.

          If you want to start slower or are more worried about angering your boss, you could try “Well, I can only stay until 6:00 [as an example], I suppose I can stay if we have a hard stop at 6. Would that work, or would tomorrow be better?” Of course, there’s a very good chance that he’ll push that boundary, too, so I don’t recommend this, but it’s an alternative if you’re not sure you want to draw that line in the sand just yet.

        2. Jaydee*

          Set a firm time limit on it if he’s really insistent or it truly can’t wait until morning. “Okay, let me send these last few emails before I forget and I will come over to your office in 10 minutes. I really do need to be out of here by 6:00, so I hope that gives us enough time.” [optionally, you could add that if that won’t be enough time to discuss everything he wants to talk about you could just talk about A and then save B and C for the next day] That way you’ve given him a few minutes to prioritize what he wants to talk to you about so it fits into the amount of time you have to talk. Then just stick to the time you have to leave. “Oh, look at the time! It’s 5 minutes to 6:00. Let’s make sure we have covered all the main things for tonight and maybe we can talk again first thing tomorrow. I will be in by 7:45 (or whatever is accurate).

        3. AMT 2*

          Maybe just a polite “a few minutes is fine, but I really have to leave by 5:45 tonight” or whatever time you need, and then keep an eye on the clock and cut him off if you need to: “I really have to get going, I have somewhere to be”. Hopefully he will get the hint after a few times of this.

        4. Beezus*

          “I’m sorry, I have an appointment that I can’t miss, and I really need to head out on time.” (or, if you want to give a little, “OK, but I have a hard stop at 5:15 to make an appointment, so I really need to head out then.”) He doesn’t have to know that your appointment is with Alex Trebek and your couch.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Personally, I don’t think you have to have plans in order to say “I was hoping to get out on time today, could we put this off until tomorrow?”

    5. Valkyrie*

      I’m also a client service/admin person at a law firm. The founding attorney (my boss) and I have scheduled weekly meetings for every Monday morning to go over everything (leads, workflow, marketing, etc.) , I’ve also completely packed my evenings. Monday, Wednesday and Friday I take a class at my gym at 5:30 (we’ve worked it out so I leave 15 minutes early those days so I can make it on time) and Tuesdays I visit my Grandma, so Thursday is my only free evening.

      I am lucky because my boss really values work/life balance, but there are definitely ways to work around this. Do you manage your boss’s calendar? Can you schedule him for networking happy hours or events in the evening? My boss usually does about 2 evening events per week.

      Good luck!

    6. Marisol*

      I was going to suggest just saying, “I have to leave at 5:30. Is this an emergency, or can we meet tomorrow?” But I’m getting the sense you think your boss wouldn’t like something like that. Although, I wonder, are you *sure* it wouldn’t fly, or is it possible that he does this so often because, having never spoken up, he thinks you don’t mind?

    7. Valkyrie*

      I’m also an admin/client service person at a law firm and my boss and I have scheduled a weekly meeting to go over everything (leads, workflow, unresponsive clients, etc). It’s worked out pretty well.

      I’ve also packed my evenings–which gets me out of the office and also helps me avoid traffic on the way home. I’ve worked out my schedule so I leave at 5:15 Monday, Wednesday and Friday to make it to a 5:30 class at my gym, and on Tuesdays I visit my Grandma. So, Thursday is the only evening I don’t have booked which makes it harder to need me later. I’m also lucky that my boss supports all of this, so the buy-in was important.

      Do you manage your boss’s calendar? I schedule mine for frequent evening networking events, somebody is always having a networking happy hour somewhere! (She likes them, I’m not signing her up for weird stuff she doesn’t want to do).

      Good luck!

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you decide to stay until a certain time, set a very audible alarm on your phone or watch. Then, instead of clock-watching, you can say “Oh, sorry, it’s 6:00! I’ve got to go.”

  38. KatieKate*

    Non-profit workers: anyone else in this situation?
    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-plight-of-the-overworked-nonprofit-employee/497081/

    My organization is big an everyone helps each other out–especially because we used to get comp time as overtime. I feel like my company culture is really going to change because managers are less likely to share their reports with other departments for events because they’ll have to pay overtime. On the one hand I’m thrilled with the law, on the other this comp time exclusion is seriously going to screw with us.

    1. Abbi Abrams*

      I’m a non-profit worker but in Canada so the law doesn’t apply to me. Oh boy, does this article ever resonate with me though. Working overtime (especially to attend events, fundraisers, etc) isn’t MANDATORY but if you don’t do it, you look bad. Because everyone should be 100% devoted to their cause. Ugh…

    2. Mona Lisa*

      I know my former co-workers at the awful non-profit I left last year are really struggling with this. I ran into one recently during the work day (we were hosting an event at a local establishment) and remarked that I was surprised to see her there. She told me that they’re doing a lot more half-days to get around the overtime so they can still work weekend events. She was definitely a workaholic before (the type who took her company laptop home to work until 7/8 every evening) so I think it’s been a big mental shift for her and many of the other employees to realize that they don’t have to/can’t do that anymore. The co-worker did say that she’s already finding a better work/life balance though so it sounds like it might be a good thing for the non-profit workers in general!

    3. De Minimis*

      At my employer, everyone was already making above the new salary threshold because we’re in a high cost of living area. I think though that many are overworked, and we don’t have any type of comp time—it’s all under the guise of everyone being exempt and as my boss has said, “Time has no meaning if you’re exempt.” I think we are fudging the rules a lot as far as the duties test, though. I feel like it’s debatable whether some of us are truly exercising “discretion and independent judgment.”

      I feel badly for orgs that are having to jump through a lot of hoops to comply with the new rules, but people should be adequately paid for the work they do. It does bother me though if it will compromise program effectiveness.

    4. Lillian McGee*

      Yep. It’s terrible, because exactly 0% of our funders have given us a raise in the last 2 years, yet we are expected to produce higher and higher numbers of people served AND good outcomes?? And give staff raises! It’s unsustainable and it sucks mightily.

      I am pretty sure that I should have been classed non-exempt from day 1, but I never have been because of my various “manager” titles. Also, I have made it a point to end my day at 8 hours unless some event or dire emergency required me to stay. I am one of two people becoming non-exempt on Dec 1 and I warned my boss months ago and again last week. She was like, “What?? Professional duties!” I said yeah, but also salary threshold. She said “We’re doing the budget soon, we’ll talk about it then.” So… not sure what’s gonna happen to me.

      1. Mona Lisa*

        That was how my last non-profit was, too. Everyone was classified as exempt, including the front desk person. There were people who actually were exempt, but about half the staff should probably have been classified as non-exempt because of their duties.

        When I helped create a new position after a database conversion, I told them the title should probably be “Database Administrator” to keep it in line with what most other branches of the national organization were calling that position. Our (awful, ineffective) HR lady threw a fit because, according to her, if “administrator” was in the title, it would be nearly impossible to classify that position as exempt. We ended up going with another more vague title to appease her.

        1. Lillian McGee*

          That’s terrible. Especially because title has nothing to do with status! It’s all in the duties and if there were ever a claim, title wouldn’t even be a factor (except maybe to illustrate that the org was blatantly [and stupidly] attempting to avoid applicability…) But a front desk person!? That’s bad. Our worst was trying to fit paralegals into the ‘learned professional’ exemption. But we changed our ways (a little)…

          Tbh, I like being exempt because of the flexibility. I do not want to have to start keeping track of my lunch breaks and my actual working time. It would be nice to be making more, but I would much rather work only 40 hours.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      I work at a non-profit university and this article definitely spoke to me. It’s not that my employer CAN’T pay me overtime, they just don’t want to until they have to. I’ll be happy with overtime or a limited-to-40-hours work week… either is good, and treats me with more respect.

      As it stands, I’m expected to be at work at 8:00 a.m. every morning, and be at events until 8:00 p.m. many days each week. It’s ridiculous.

      1. De Minimis*

        We do a ton of events [it’s part of our overall mission] and the people in charge of coordinating those are often on the lower tier of our pay structure–and they generally travel the most and probably put in the most hours when one of these events is taking place [and it’s usually at least once every couple of months, sometimes more often.] I don’t think it’s fair, but I’m in a role where it would probably have a negative impact on my position if I made waves.

        It seems like everyone has at least some duties that might qualify for exempt status, but I think it’s borderline if those tasks aren’t the majority of your job.

  39. StandardSecretary*

    Hi all.

    I have recently given my resignation at my current place of work due to the hugely toxic environment (think members of staff threatening each other with physical violence, formal complaints being made about petty things like not refilling the printer paper tray) and the complete unwillingness of management to handle the situation. I have a new job lined up but it’s with my company’s biggest competitor. The last time someone from my company got a job with this particular competitor and left my current company, the CEO of my current company stormed into the competitors office and was very hostile, demanding to know why they were “stealing his staff”. Things were made very very difficult for that previous employee during their notice period.

    I was advised by my new job’s HR dept not to tell my current company I was leaving to work for them. I told my current company I am leaving for health reasons (not far from the truth, I have been quite ill recently and mentally my anxiety has become unbearable and I believe these have both been caused by the stress from my current job). Here’s my problem – my new job require a reference from my current company. As they are aware of the hostility situation with my CEO they are going to request my reference after I have left employment here. My boss (not the CEO or management) is really really great and I would love for him to provide my reference but I know he’s going to feel really betrayed by me leaving and working for the competitor.

    I’d appreciate any comments on this. Do I just have a guilt complex or am I a seriously horrible person?

    1. Dawn*

      You have an enormous guilt complex and your company is being pretty damned abusive… actually really abusive. The CEO storming into the competitor’s office yelling because someone DARED get a job there? What in the actual hell….

      Yeah, let it go, do what you need to do for your mental health, and enjoy your new job!

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Evil Law Firm where I used to work tried to file suit against my current company claiming they were conspiring to steal their employees. As if any of us needed to be “stolen” from that hellhole.

    2. Temperance*

      Okay it makes no sense that you need to provide a reference from your old company when your new company knows that your CEO is a lunatic. None.

      No advice, but I definitely think you have nothing to feel guilty about. You are so far from a “horrible person” for leaving a toxic workplace.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Guilt complex. There is nothing horrible about leaving such an appalling situation! And I wouldn’t worry too much about your boss feeling betrayed–you’re not responsible for his emotions or how he handles them. Seeing you escape might even give him the incentive to leave himself. I seriously doubt he doesn’t realize how awful it is.

    4. Jaydee*

      It sounds like the solution is to 1) not tell your current employer that you are going to work for competitor during your notice period; 2) a day or two after you leave, contact your boss and let him know what’s going on – you took a job at competitor; after the scene CEO made when Wakeen left new HR suggested that you not disclose where you were going during your notice period; you do need someone to be a reference from toxic employer; boss has always been great, you’ve really appreciated working for him, etc. and know he is not the type to do something as unprofessional as CEO did; and ask if it will be alright to put his name down as a reference; 3) once you have the okay from boss, let your new employer know they can contact him for a reference.

    5. Product Person*

      It does seem weird to ask for references after you started, but if it’s a must have, why not tell your new company to ask for a reference WITHOUT mentioning the name of the company calling?

      They could just say, “hi, I’m hoping to get a better sense of StandardSecretary skills; since you used to be her supervisor, could I ask you a few quick questions about how she approaches her work?”.

      I don’t see the relevance of disclosing for which company is the reference when they call — your former boss should be able to answer any questions without the need for this particular piece of information.

    6. Observer*

      Your CEO’s behavior borders on the illegal. And, it’s HUGELY unethical.

      You are not the bad one here. What I would like to know is why does the new place require a reference? (unless it’s just to verify your employment, in which case a call to HR should do the trick.) After all, they KNOW that the CEO is out of his mind.

    7. Chaordic One*

      It seems kind of silly for your new job to REQUIRE a reference letter from your current company, however, under the circumstances, if I were your boss (not the CEO or a member of management) I certainly wouldn’t have a problem giving you a letter of reference. I doubt your boss will have a problem with giving you one. You have a guilt complex.

  40. TeaPotDesigner*

    Some background: For years my boss would love to tell his entire team that we are one of the highest paid in the industry, and it’s always downhill from here. I can never tell if this is true. I had asked two former male coworkers of mine, and they all have higher salaries than me. I am now trying to searching for a new job, and constantly stumble on the preferred salary question. I am really worried that just asking for the new company to match my current salary is way too high an amount.
    Would reducing my salary requirement (to the point of getting 20% less of what I was paid previously) help me get more responses in my job applications, especially in the current economic climate?

    1. Dawn*

      Can you check on Glassdoor to see if your salary is in line with the industry? Also, don’t be disclosing your current salary or salary requirements on your resume or in your applications- that’s a discussion to have when there’s a potential offer on the table.

      1. TeaPotDesigner*

        Thanks for the resource!
        I really wish I didn’t have to, but a lot of the job recruitment sites I am applying to has it as a fill in in the web form, or even worse, flat out requested in the opening requirements. I was afraid if I leave it out, my application would be tossed for reasons of not being able to follow instructions.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        Yeah, try and get some hard data (especially since you have anecdotal evidence that you’re NOT making above market rate). Your boss very well could have been blowing smoke up your behind as a retention strategy.

        My last agency LOVED to do this. We were sitting in a town hall meeting and the head of finance kept saying loudly that every single one of us was being paid above market. Meanwhile it was the last day for one of my then-direct reports, who had quit because TPTB stepped on my requests to get him a raise, and I knew that he was leaving (with my blessing) for an increase of *more than 33%*. I texted him during that meeting “how hard are you laughing right now?”

        1. TeaPotDesigner*

          Thanks AdAgencyChick!
          Ungh, I wish this wasn’t such a popular management strategy. Seriously, it is really demoralising.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you were the highest-paid in the industry, I think you’d know it. I think people who work for your competitors would be applying for your jobs on a regular basis. Does that happen?

      1. TeaPotDesigner*

        I am not certain because there seems to be a hiring freeze that had lasted for years. But I do know for a fact that people had been resigning at quite a fast rate, so whatever “highest” salary they were paying was probably not enough to prevent people from leaving.
        So THERE, boss. HAHAHA.

  41. Thyme Lady*

    After job hunting in my field for months, I am feeling pretty burned out, AAM friends. I currently work part time but have been struggling the past few weeks in finding energy to apply for additional work and full-time roles. Any tips for keeping up the momentum? I’ve read a few articles on burnout, but since these are aimed at those who are currently employed, the tips shared aren’t really applicable.

    1. JustaTech*

      Oh for pity’s sake! Am I not supposed to wear my wedding ring either? Or do married women not work in his field?

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Perhaps taking a week off, then a week simply to reexamine resume, cover letters, etc, and then getting back into it the following week with fresh materials?

    3. SophieChotek*

      Yes, perhaps take some time off — really come back and reasses.

      Also — are you applying judicously and carefully? It might still take the same amount of time but feel less like you are doing so much — when I first started looking for jobs I applied to practically everything and anything — now I’ve cut that down by 50% or more and I spend more quality time on each resume/cover letter/really reading the job description — like you, I’m struggling to find energy and time to apply for additional work/new job, but knowing I don’t need to just do everything, but just do a few things has helped me (mentally). Maybe even just cut down to these are the two jobs I really want — not necessarily dream jobs or there may be several that seem like good fits –but decide “okay, I’ll do these two” and “spend X time resting”…instead of “I need to apply to these 10 places that all look like possibilites!”…just a thought — you might be doing this already and still feeling overwhelmed…

      1. Thyme Lady*

        I am careful about what I apply for. I make sure I fit the profile close to 75% and that it is something I am genuinely interested in instead of a job to just get by. Actually, a lot of what you described is pretty much where I am at right now. When I do see positions, I read through them thorough before I make a plan to apply. But sometimes while I am putting things together I start to question whether or not I will like the position or if it is even worth it. I’ve been at entry-level for such a long time that it is really just starting to get to me, and I’m questioning whether or not I should move into another field or a similar one. I have a strong background in writing and am thinking of taking on creative work that involves that up again instead of continuing working in the field that I am in now.

    2. Collie*

      (Disclaimer: Did not read the article.) I’ve seen similar arguments before, so I have to wonder if maybe we shouldn’t be so mad at the people suggesting this, but mad at society for the fact that it’s a legitimate suggestion in the first place. I’m not sure what the answer is to solve the issue, and I don’t know that a man writing on this particular topic is appropriate (though it wouldn’t be much better if a woman did), but there’s that. Hashtag, down-with-the-patriarchy!

      1. Kelly L.*

        I wish he’d written an article called “Don’t Judge Job Candidates for Being Engaged”!

        I think that’s what annoys me about it–instead of telling interviewers to behave better, it’s once again telling women how to compensate for other people’s bad behavior.

        Ew, and then he goes on to “clarify” that engagement rings are just a business transaction for men and that women with big rings are high maintenance.

        1. Collie*

          Agreed! And excuse me while I go wipe the vomit off my mouth in response to your last line there. Glad I didn’t bother wasting my time with the article!

      2. Ife*

        Nope, I think we can be mad at both society and the people who suggest this, at the same time! Every time someone suggests this, they feed into the larger societal notion that it’s acceptable. They perpetuate and spread the attitude that it’s A Thing. Honestly it never would have occurred to me that you would need to remove your engagement ring if you were going to an interview; now it’s something I think about (with disdain, and with no intention of doing it, but other people may have a different takeaway).

        1. Student*

          If you’re a woman looking for a job and you need it badly enough to work every edge you can get – then you appear unmarried because you’re more likely to get hired. It sucks, and it’s wrong, and it’s also a real thing that employers actually make hiring decisions on, backed up by research. Married women (especially with children) get paid less and get hired less. You also probably dress more nicely for the interview, wear more make-up, and don’t mention children (again, wrong; but a measurable, real thing).

          Men, on the other hand, get a career boost out of being married and having children – so it benefits them to mention such things during an interview.

          Pretending the problem doesn’t exist, or getting angry when someone publicizes it exists, serves no one. The women who do or do not wear a ring (either way!) are not to blame for the issue at hand – employers are, and the utter impotency of laws meant to protect against this kind of issue. Employers are not going to change on their own accord; they haven’t for years, they don’t even when research demonstrates quantifiable ($$$) business improvements when people are treated fairly and hiring is diverse. Laws won’t change until people (1) recognize this is a real thing instead of ignoring it or making fun of it because it makes them uncomfortable (2) elect leaders who will do something real about it.

          1. Observer*

            That actually has nothing to do with this guy’s advice though. While it may be true that SOME employers are less likely to hire a woman if she’s married, and many of those will make assumptions based on whether she’s wearing a ring or not, this guy’s reasoning goes way, way beyond that.

      3. Observer*

        No, for all the problems with society, this is not one of them. This is just stupid, stupid advice.

        It’s doesn’t reflect the real world in any real way, and any candidate that pays this guy for help is wasting money (at best).

        The better question to ask is, WHY DO WE TAKE THIS STUPIDITY SO SERIOUSLY?!

    3. Manders*

      I actually bought a fancy ring because I thought I might have to wear something to job interviews; my partner was interviewing at a few places that were willing to consider a spousal hire, but we weren’t married yet. I thought it would look weird to interviewers if I didn’t have one, like our relationship wasn’t serious enough that I would ever actually be his spouse.

      To be honest, I almost ever notice that someone’s wearing a ring unless they have an absolutely massive hunk of rock.

    4. Camellia*

      Why are these things still things?!?!!? Seriously, it is depressing to think that my four year old granddaughter may still have to deal with patriarchal attitudes, disparate salaries, rape-victim blaming, and all the other things that we have been trying to change in what seems like forever. WHEN WILL WE BE DONE??

      [signed] Child of the Fifties

    5. Chaordic One*

      Rings are not things that I would really notice or pay attention to. Aside from the “married” and sexist angles, do you suppose that someone wearing a large engagement ring might be perceived as showing off?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      That would seal the deal for me. I would wear the rock so I could find out what type of employer I was speaking with. If you are an idiot of an employer let me know up front so we do not waste our time.

      I see the articles about how important it is to color your hair once it grays. I don’t do that for the same reason.

  43. Brock*

    About to start jobhunting, and for my CV I can’t figure out how to list my employment taking account both of the sites where I’ve worked and my actual employers – there have been three TUPE processes (UK Transfer of Undertaking – Protection of Employees) since I last officially started a new job. When I explain it in detail, it takes up lines of my CV and prospective employers are confused anyway. Leaving the details out either misrepresents my actual employers or actual experience. It looks like this:

    Job location Employer
    Company 1 Company 1 New hire
    Company 2 Company 2 TUPE
    Company 2 Company 3 TUPE
    Company 2 Company 3 Promotion (significant change in job duties)
    Company 4 Company 3 Transfer to another site
    Company 4 Company 5 TUPE

    Any ideas? Maybe I should footnote it all?

    1. Sibley*

      I’m not sure what the TUPE really is, but it sounds like the company got bought out or something. Same job, different name on the pay stub? If so, I would do this:

      Company 1, Company 2, Company 3 – New hire
      (company bought out twice)
      company 3, 4, 5 – promotion
      (company bought out twice)

      But make it better of course!

  44. Amy*

    I need help figuring out how to show that the skills/experiences in my career-track experience apply to non-career track jobs as well.

    Some background: I am a candidate for ordination in my denomination (UCC), so the majority of my experience is things like hospital chaplain intern, intern minister, intern at an interfaith organization, college chaplain intern, etc. I also have a Master of Divinity degree from a top-10 university. Given my location and the infrequent nature of FT associate minister openings, I’m currently looking for entry-level admin type jobs that I can be at for 18months-2 years while I wait for an opening in church ministry.

    It’s clear to *me* and other people in my field the way that ministry experience requires/teaches skills that are just as valuable in non-ministry roles, but I’m not sure how to explain in a cover letter, for example, that writing/giving monthly sermons with consistently positive feedback demonstrates my strong written/oral communication skills, or how the my term as a hospital chaplain means that I’m really good at handling confidential information and acting diplomatically with clients/patrons, etc…no matter how I phrase it, I feel like it either sounds naive or condescending.

    My second problem is that I have a feeling that my (religious) degree and the (religious) nature of my job experience might be scaring people off. I’m very aware of the fact that many people in our country have negative experiences with religion/Christianity, or have misconceptions that religious degrees either aren’t academically rigorous or imply poor judgement. I’m hoping that the fact that I got my MDiv at an Ivy League university will help somewhat, but I don’t know how to put in a cover letter, ‘yes I’m super Christian but that doesn’t automatically mean super conservative or super evangelical and no I wont try and convert everyone in your office and yes I am smart and competent I promise’

    Lastly, I don’t know if a cover letter is the place to reassure people “Yes its pretty obvious that the position I’m applying for is not in my field, but that doesn’t mean I’m not sincere about my application, because positions in my field wont be opening up for at least 18 months or so, and the application process itself can take anywhere from 3 to 9 months anyway”, or how to phrase it if it is.

    I am at a total loss.

      1. Amy*

        Mostly entry-level admin positions at local non-profits and for-profits, so things like “administrative assistant” or “program assistant” type things, but also a few other less-entry-level positions, mostly in the ‘project associate’ or ‘project coordinator’ vein, that I personally can tell I’m qualified for, but am not sure how to interpret my resumé to show a prospective employer that I am.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          I once received the advice to phrase everything from the new role’s POV. So when I was looking to move from nannying to admin work a few years back, I emphasized how I managed the schedule and coordinated this & that and made xyz things easier, but de-emphasized some of the cuddly kid stuff. Mention volunteer work you do, and it’s totally reasonable to say “My work in chaplaincy taught me a lot about diplomacy, confidentiality, and organization. In fact that’s part of what appeals to me about this role — I get so much satisfaction from (helping things run smoothly, contributing to a team, what-have-you).”

          Unfortunately the “I’m not a bigoted condescending jerk out to convert the world” is probably better shown than said.

        2. Temperance*

          Do you have any non-religious work or volunteer experience? I think it would be really helpful to show that you have a range of interests and skills, and it would combat the whole “is this person just trying to get a foot in the door to proselytize” thing. I also think it might be helpful to leave off anything about sermons unless the job that you’re looking for involves public speaking in some capacity.

          If I had a resume that only included faith-based work and internship experience, I probably would pass on it since it’s not really relevant to my industry (pro bono legal work), and I might assume that you wouldn’t be a good fit in my very secular but historically Jewish org. I’m an ex-evangelical, FWIW, so my perspective is probably a bit extreme.

          Have you looked into any jobs doing intake or the like at religious nonprofits, or secular nonprofits?

          1. Amy*

            My last completely secular experience ended 3 years ago…since then I’ve been an intern college chaplain, an intern at a very well-respected interfaith organization in the UK, a student minister at a local church, and a hospital chaplain…aside from that, all I have is a work-study student assistant job from undergrad (2008-2009) and a 9-month temping job at a mortgage office (2012-2013). Anyone familiar with my denomination knows that we’re a pretty liberal bunch who are really into the whole ‘separation of church and state’ thing and think proselytizing is rude/disrespectful, so I’m not as worried about my applications to social-justice oriented non-profits (my denomination often collaborates with these types of organizations), but I’d hate to think that I was getting dismissed/turned away just because I don’t know how to show that my skills translate pretty well to admin work across disciplines…

            1. Temperance*

              On the flip side, though, if you can’t really show how your ministerial experience translates to secular admin work, you can’t really expect a hiring manager to “get” it, you know? I wouldn’t really see chaplaincy skills as something that could work in my industry at first glance, and unfortunately, in this market, you need to put it out there because it’s easy to get overlooked.

              I think that your mortgage experience and student job could actually be useful in showing this, FWIW.

        3. Overeducated*

          UCC represent! One of my favorite aspects of my UCC church is its focus on doing good and creating change in this world. What if you focused on social service and justice oriented organizations and linked your ministry background with their missions to convince hiring managers you want to be part of what they’re doing? “I am looking for a placeholder job unrelated to my vocation but i have tons of transferrable skills” would be less compelling to me than “I am deeply committed to (x cause/principle), which I became involved with in (y internship/church/etc) and want to make a practical difference using this set of transferrable skills.”

          Another idea: check into fundraising and development jobs, my brother has great people skills and has been doing amazingly in his organizing/fundraising job.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      If you’re applying to entry-level jobs, you need to leave your MDiv off your resume entirely. Most employers will see that and think “Ah, she won’t be here long if we hire her” or “Ah, she’s looking for something easy” and toss your resume in the trash.

      Advanced degrees should always be left off resumes when applying to entry-level jobs, unless they’re specifically necessary for the role.

      1. Amy*

        yeah thats what I was thinking, but I’m worried that without the context of being in a 3 year graduate degree, my resume of internship after internship will look like job-hopping…but maybe not, because some of the internships were year-long?

        2. Jadelyn*

          Employers expect that internships are short-to-mid-term at most, though – if I see a string of internships on a resume, I don’t think “job hopper” I think “recent graduate got lots of real-world XP while in school”.

    3. Yup*

      I’m far too familiar with this problem from my transition from academia to non-ac (professors all do the same thing!). Perhaps this will help:

      First, I think you can very reasonably claim some sort of project management or even program management experience. As chaplain, esp. college chaplain, you presumably put together some kind of programming / regular meetings for students, as well as counseling them one-on-one, right? Think about what you planned and what your responsibilities were, then think of how to describe them. Ex: “Coordinated meetings / delivered sermons to groups of up to 75 students” – or whatever fits.

      Other than that, skills to emphasize might be communication, as you’ve already noted, as well as advising / counseling. I’m sure there are others, these are just those that spring to mind.

      Unlike others, I don’t think the religious aspect is something to worry about, not do I think you should leave off your M.Div. Employers will, I suspect, spend less time thinking about what you were / did than about what you want to do for them. The Master’s shows research ability (assuming it required a thesis) and helps for jobs that require a certain degree-level. As for the religious part, I think – as Overeducated suggested – that your background makes you a very strong contender for mission-driven jobs (non-profits, social sector, etc) and that your intro could simply mention your commitment to working with the public or supporting a progressive cause or such.

      Last thing: I don’t think you’re necessarily entry-level at all! I imagine you already have administrative skills you can claim (did you organize events? conduct outreach? set up relevant email lists? Etc).

      Good luck! And I do hope you don’t feel like you have to hide your background too much. Chaplaincy is a remarkable vocation, and I say this as an atheist. :)

  45. Brock*

    Sorry – that wasn’t very clear. Here it is with hyphens which should improve readability slightly:

    Job location – Employer – Nature of change
    Company 1 – Company 1 – New hire
    Company 2 – Company 2 – TUPE
    Company 2 – Company 3 – TUPE
    Company 2 – Company 3 – Promotion
    Company 4 – Company 3 – Transfer to another site
    Company 4 – Company 5 – TUPE

    1. HR Expat*

      It’s fairly normal to be TUPEd. I’d group your CV by role, and make a note under the role that it was with was TUPEd a couple of times. That way, it’s basing your CV on roles, not companies and doesn’t look like you were job hopping.

      However, I’d wait for a couple other opinions first, since I’m well known at my company for my American impatience with CVs (there’s way too much useless information in them!!!).

      1. Brock*

        When I put little lines under each role it gets complicated – the initial hire was over 15 years ago and the role-change and employer-change almost never happen at the same time. They keep leapfrogging!

  47. TravelSizedAdmin*

    I’m two months into my new job, which is great and I like it a lot! What is not great is people commenting on my age on an almost daily basis. I’m an admin assistant that deals with the public on a daily basis, so it’s usually random people making these comments, and not my co-workers. To be fair, the lady who held the position before is my grandmother’s age, and I am a petite lady with a round face, so I get that it can be a jarring change for people. But it’s getting to be very grating having to shut down the “so how much experience DO you have?” questions from nosy people trying to suss out my age. Bleh.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Ugh, I get those a lot too. I’m tall, but I have a baby face and I *am* actually quite young. I just smile and change the subject when someone makes age-related noises/questions. It’s none of their business how old I am, or how long I’ve worked in the field.

    3. irritable vowel*

      I love the username you chose for your question! As a librarian, I found when I was younger that older patrons would sometimes assume I was a student at the college, ask me what I was studying, etc., so I feel your pain. (Now that I wear reading glasses at the reference desk I’ve found that those questions have magically evaporated…) To respond to the example question you give, I’d probably say something like “Enough to be hired for this job,” or “Do you have a concern about my work?” depending on what kind of mood I was in. If you get the feeling that someone is making an assumption about your age/experience, but isn’t outright asking you a question, I think just let it go and focus on giving them professional service. If these are customers/clients who are used to the older admin, they’re repeat visitors who will eventually get used to you.

    4. Drew*

      “Some days I feel like I’m 12, some days it’s more like 112.” Say it with a smile and an air of “Here’s this little shared experience we have,” and I bet most people will let it go. Especially if you can change the subject soon after.

      I learned my lesson about disclosing ages when I was helping out at a high school program in college, and when I told the students I was 22, one of them said, “My boyfriend is older than that!” I didn’t need to know that detail about her…

  48. Not Karen*

    Poll: What % of your time would/do you allocate to each of the following in order to achieve a good work-life balance?
    a) work
    b) chores, errands, etc.
    c) leisure/self-care

    Side note: Any recommendations for articles or books about work-life balance, especially those that are directed towards people who feel guilty when they are not being 100% productive 100% of the time?

    1. Temperance*

      So this is my ideal:

      a.) 35%
      b.) 35%
      c.) 30%

      That’s my ideal, but my commute from hell, thanks to SEPTA, has sort of made it more like:

      a.) 65%
      b.) 25%
      c.) 10%

        1. Temperance*

          Yep. It’s the worst, isn’t it? We’re paying $150+/month, and they don’t even care about providing reasonable service. I’m spending 3+ hours per day commuting now when it used to be just barely over one hour.

          And now they offer “express bus service” as if that’s a good alternative to trains? No. I’m not spending all this money to ride a bus and the BSL.

          (I will do whatever I can to avoid buses. During the first few weeks of my train having a bus added, I sat on a seat soaked in deodorizer and had to go out and buy a new outfit to continue my workday. HATE BUSES.)

          1. IvyGirl*

            Used to take the R5 from Devon to 30th Street. How many times did we get stuck? A LOT. Man those passes were expensive. During the multiple strikes or if it was too hot/crowded we’d just have a few in Bridgewaters Pub to let things calm down.

            So I moved into the city and then was taking the 5 bus and then the MFL. And then my brain reminded me to be careful what you wish for.

            1. Temperance*

              Ah I’m on the Media/Elwyn. My normally 35-minute express train ride has tripled, and it’s not unheard of to take me over 2 hours to get home now.

              I bought a house in Delco before this whole thing exploded … and we became a 1-car household 2 years ago, because I was riding the train and didn’t need one. Silly me.

              I only had to deal with one strike that thankfully didn’t last, but it sounds awful.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      I don’t have breakdowns or a book, but I struggle with c myself. And b, if we’re being honest, because I don’t have a lot of free time.

      I look at b as necessary to keep my life running and I also hire help–I have a cleaner and am exploring someone to come in and cook meals once a week.

      Starting to view c more like b–necessary to the well being of myself and my family. It’s a commitment to mental, physical and emotional health. I find if I treat it as something non negotiable and that benefits other people than me, I don’t feel guilty.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I’m side-stepping your question, but I don’t stress about having W/L balance day to day. I look at the big picture over the course of a few years. My 2016 focus was on my work and my kid who was graduating high school. I bought a personal training package last December, and have only made it though half the sessions!

      But, the year before, my work wasn’t as demanding, and I trained for a marathon & we took a really nice vacation.

      I think the key is to focus on whatever it is you’ve given priority to at the moment. If I work hard at work all week, I spend Friday night vegging on the couch guilt-free, but if I slacked at work, then I spend Friday vegging and stressed about it.

      1. Project Manager*

        I agree. I have a three-month-old, and my five-year-old had surgery four months ago and is having the second one in a couple weeks (it’s a good thing but still a surgery), so there’s not much me time now. But it will pass. I’ll have time for painting again. But for now, I just grab a hot bath and a good book whenever I can.

    4. Jupe*

      As someone who once worked 80 hour weeks, I don’t stress about the percentage too much. When I was miserable and working a million hours, I would try to think about it like this:
      Work is as many hours as it has to be and that’s just the way it is for now. But I’ll try to take coffee breaks in the morning and call my mom during the dinner break which I liked doing.
      Chores are things I have to do, but I mostly do the bare minimum and fit in some leisure along the way
      Leisure are things I can fit in whenever possible – if I can get ice cream on my way to the grocery store, I’m happy.

      So basically I didn’t categorize them as strictly as you have them here. It was for my own mental health to do it that way and I think I managed a decent “balance” despite the fact that I was mostly just working.

    5. alice*

      As of right now:

      a) 54%
      b) 27%
      c) 19%

      This is working okay for me right now. I’m working 55 hours a week for the next two weeks, and then it’ll go back down to 40-45. The problem is that I don’t really know what to do with my free time. That 27% contains everything from cooking (I like to cook, so it’s not a chore) to surfing the internet when I come home from work. There are a lot of craft-like projects I’d like to do, but I rarely have a solid five-hour chunk of free time to work on them.

    6. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      For me it has always been more of a feeling than based on actual percentages. At ToxicJob it felt like 90 work/10 home life even though it was only a 50 hour week at work – it was just so bad that I was stressed constantly even when not there. At my current job I am super happy, and even though I work a full 40 hours or sometimes more, I feel like the balance is way better. I still feel like I don’t have enough free time to accomplish everything, but it’s not nearly as bad as it was at ToxicJob

    7. Ife*

      I feel like I had a really good balance when I was working 5 hour days, 5 days a week. There was always enough time to do what I wanted to (categories b and c), and I got all my work done (maybe even more than I do now working 8 hours/day).

      It isn’t even the 8 hours at work that are the worst time suck, it is the fact that the time before and after is so crunched (getting ready to leave in the morning, making dinner, cleaning up after dinner, getting the kid to bed — leaves literally an hour or two for categories b and c each day).

      Related: http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already-been-designed/

      1. Not Karen*

        Exactly! An 8-hour work day isn’t really only 8 hours if you include a lunch break, commuting, and all the things that we do only because we go to work (getting dressed nicely, showering every day, meal prep, etc.).

    8. KatieKate*

      Not an article but: adding a routine to self-care can trick us type A people into bettering ourselves.

      Example: Monday/Wednesday at 9 pm is my “face mask time.” :)

  49. Jessen*

    So I have a new job issue. My training class consists of 6 women (self included). They talk about a lot of sexual stuff, up to passing around dick pics and talking about sleeping with their SO’s and various people who aren’t their SO’s. They’ve very much taken the attitude that sex is great and everyone should be having it.

    Now my issue is that they’re trying to include me. I am part of a faith where sexual activity outside of marriage is not ok (something they’ve talked about as “silly” and “unrealistic”). I do not want to be part of this talk. I don’t want to come across as judging what they do sexually (not my business), but I just want to be left alone. We’re all pretty new to the office environment and I’m not sure how to handle this.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Since you mentioned that you’re all new to working in an office, please know that this is wildly inappropriate (picture a bunch of guys doing this and passing around nude photos of women at work, and that might become clearer), exposes your company to legal liability if someone were to complain, and your employer would want to put a stop to it if they knew about it.

    3. LCL*

      “Did you know people have been fired for talking about sex on the job? I need this job, so leave me out of this.”

    4. Dawn*

      Uh…. OK so this is ABSOLUTELY INAPPROPRIATE IN ANY OFFICE. Your faith has zero to do with the appropriateness of this.

      Step one is to tell them in no uncertain terms to STOP. Every single time that they start up, tell them to stop. Tell them it makes you uncomfortable and please stop. DOCUMENT THIS. If they call you a prude, if they make disparaging comments about what you believe because of your faith, DOCUMENT IT. Times, what was said, who said it, etc.
      Step two is to talk to the person leading the class, make them aware of what’s going on.
      Step three would be to go to HR if they don’t immediately stop.

      This is just so far beyond the pale it’s incredible they’d even think it was an OK thing to do.

      1. Aurion*

        Yeah, this has nothing to do with faith. I’m atheist and pro sex in whatever way people choose to have it…but it is not an appropriate topic at work and I would be equally unhappy in your place. Take it up to management if you have to, but feel 100% justified in shutting this down.

        (Also, your choices re: sex are not “silly” or “unrealistic”.)

        1. Reluctant Chihuahua Mom*

          +1 I’m not religious & this would make me uncomfortable too. They are being unprofessional with the pics & talk and the are being rude to you.

    5. Anon for this*

      “Let’s not talk about this at work.”

      What they’re doing is inappropriate regardless of your faith or personal preferences, so don’t worry about that (unless they know and might try to argue it with you). In any case, they’re being inappropriate. Tell them to stop. Document it. Go to their manager.

      We might not often think of women sexually harassing other women, but it sounds like it’s happening. Be ready to call it what it is.

        1. irritable vowel*

          It’s totally direct harassment! Male-worker-invites-female-coworker-to-view-explicit-image-on-computer is a classic example in sexual harrassment training, and that’s exactly what’s happening here except for the gender of the perpetrator. OP, I would just go straight to your supervisor about this. It has zero to do with your personal boundaries or religious beliefs being different from theirs.

      2. Jessen*

        To be honest, I’m already the odd one out. So I don’t want to be the one to say stop because I think it would backfire on me.

        1. SRB*

          If it helps you feel better to raise it, you can frame it as “helping them to not get into trouble” since it sounds like you’re all new to this.

          “Actually, my understanding is that stuff like this isn’t really appropriate while we’re at work. I wouldn’t want you guys getting in trouble or fired if [boss] or HR found out you were doing/talking about this on the job!”

          Then it has nothing to do about how *you* feel, since you don’t really feel like defending that (and shouldn’t have to), but all about how the employers would feel. And if that doesn’t work, then take it to HR, or your boss. Guaranteed they want to shut that down. Or you could just take it straight there if you don’t feel any allegiance to these ladies. That would be totally justified too.

          I also like the non-committal “huh.” followed by silence just long enough to be awkward…. and then a change of attention elsewhere.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This.

            If they do it again, say, “No thanks, I am good here.” Or, “Thanks but I need this job.”

    6. Pearl*

      I would be so horrified in your position and I am not even religious. I agree, say every time, “Let’s not talk about this at work.” Or if they persist, “I am not going to discuss this at work. I need you to stop.”

      Also, what possesses someone to share another person’s explicit pictures, I will never know.

    7. HRish Dude*

      Tell them to stop. If and when they don’t, tell your HR or your manager.

      Sexual harassment comes in many forms and this is one of them.

      1. Jessen*

        To be honest, I’d rather not be the one to say stop. I’m already the odd one out and it would probably just make things hard for me.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Once you get out of training, Jessen, will you continue to work with these women, or will you be assigned away from them? If you’re going to be with them, you’ll have to shut it down somehow, even if it’s just “Oh, I don’t like to talk about that kind of stuff at work. So what do you think of the new coffeemaker in the break room?”

          1. Jessen*

            I will work around them but not directly with them (different but overlapping shifts.). Anyways, I opted to tell our trainer privately and ask if he could include some training on work-appropriate behavior without specifically involving me.

            3. Observer*

              That’s an excellent move. Please do follow up at some point to let us know how it worked out.

        2. The Butcher of Luverne*

          I feel compelled to say this: part of bringing an end to sexual harassment is empowering yourself to say NO. It’s up to each of us to do this or it will never end.

          What if you were cornered by a coworker in a space you couldn’t leave without pushing past them? You would need to say NO loud and clear.

          1. Jessen*

            If I really have to I can, but I often prefer not to because of the effect on my working environment. Being “that prude who ruined our fun” isn’t much better.

          2. Jadelyn*

            I’m really not okay with how this places the burden of stopping sexual harassment on the victims, rather than on the perpetrators. Would it be ideal if we could all empower ourselves to say NO? Absolutely. But people have a right to make the choices that are best for them and the calculus for “will saying NO make it better or worse?” belongs to each individual person.

    8. Jennifer*

      Wow, this is literally the only time in history I’ve ever heard of WOMEN passing around dick pics.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I worked in a factory decades ago that was mostly female employees. Men are less crass, I swear.

    9. Ife*

      Yikes, that is horrifying. I am so sorry you are experiencing this! I feel like this is something where it would be reasonable to go directly to HR/your manager, rather than trying to talk to these women directly.

    10. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      My go-to response when I want to tell people they’re crossing a line without directly accusing them is:

      “Whoa!! I’m pretty sure that’s the kind of thing that could get us all slapped with an EEO complaint! Let’s put that away!”

  50. Alton*

    I’ve been asked to complete a self-evaluation, and I’m freaking out about it a little. I feel like I’m a lot more critical of myself than other people are. I’m struggling with 1. being honest without trashing myself, 2. bringing up challenges I’m facing due to organizational issues in my department without blaming other people, and 3. giving myself a fair amount of credit, especially since I’ve been going through a rough patch over the last couple months (I’ve been working to get anxiety and depression under control, and there was some organizational upheaval at work that made me feel less confident than usual).

    1. Damn it Hardison!*

      Start by listing everything you have accomplished to date. That might help put you in a more positive frame of mind so you don’t forget the success you have had. There’s no shame or blame in acknowledging that changes have had a negative impact on your work, but be sure to include how you’ve adjusted. Don’t put in everything you feel you should improve on, just mention a couple of key things and how you hope to address them in the coming year.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Set limits, I am thinking you could pick like 3 things for each category. Try to pick the top 3, things that if they were better you would feel better about your job. If you can’t find 3 biggies then just go with 1 or 2 biggies.
      This would translate into, I think I am doing well with X and Y, but I need to beef up what I am doing with A and B. With organizational issues pick a couple that you think are impacting you the hardest. State how the issue impacts you.

      Decide not to write a comprehensive list. Decide to be practical and keep the list short. Think about the things that would help you the most.

    3. Christopher Tracy*

      I’m terrible at this too for the same reason. I’m so glad my company is doing away with formal, written evaluations.

  51. LawCat*

    Just finishing my first week at my new job! I have a lot to learn, but so far so good. 1-2 times per week, I will need to travel to another city so we need to get that routine down since I take public transit. Part of the journey involves using a subway and there was a lot of coughing and sniffling on board. I’m very good at staying on top of keeping my hands sanitized, but I’m concerned about airborne particles. Does wearing a surgical mask help prevent catching airborne diseases?

    I’m recalling the last time I lived in a place where I took a densely packed subway to commute and I got sick more times that first year than the prior three years combined! I’m trying to avoid that here so any tips for staying healthy on packed public transit are much appreciated!

    1. Unemployed Person*

      Germaphobe here… no idea about the efficacy of masks. I usually carry hand sanitizer with me when I travel on the NYC subway. I try to avoid touching my face (which can be very difficult). Whenever I arrive at my destination after commuting, I try to wash my hands or use hand sanitizer. I also try to wash my hands before I eat. I almost never get sick, with the exception that whenever I live in a new place, I often wind up getting a variety of nasty ailments due to my immune system experiencing new germs. Good luck, and congrats on your new job :)

      1. Unemployed Person*

        Oops, sorry – I missed the part where you wrote that you’re careful about keeping your hands clean…

    2. Nanani*

      Surgical masks are more about stopping YOUR germs from reaching other people, not about stopping germs in the air from reaching you, so don’t bother.

      Clean hands are key, and try to stay conscious of anything touching your face as well as your hands.
      Get a flu shot maybe?

    3. Preux*

      Surgical masks will not do anything to prevent you from getting sick. If you can breath through it, the germs can get through it.

      When I was working on the teller line (handling money every day – you’re exposed to everything under the sun, and some things that have never seen the sun) I kept myself from getting sick too often by washing my hands frequently, not touching my face, and taking vitamin C supplements (one in the morning, one at night). After coming back from vacation, I would increase the vitamin C I took for a few days, because the stress from traveling can make you more susceptible to illness.

      1. Student*

        “If you can breath through it, the germs can get through it.”

        This is completely untrue. Doesn’t mean surgical masks in particular are effective – I have no idea. But your statement is baloney.

        All things like this – surgical masks, air filters of all sorts, etc., have a rating for what size particles can and cannot pass through them.

        Air (nitrogen, oxygen, etc.) is very, very small – it can pass though all sorts of things. Let’s call it about 250 pm (picometers). A single water molecule is also around this size.

        Bacteria are about 1,000x bigger than that, at the small end. Virus are about 100x bigger than that. The water droplets these “germs” are traveling in when someone sneezes or coughs are considerably larger – more around 500,000x larger than air. You can buy material cheaply that will filter out the water droplets quite easily – your average vacuum bag is high-enough grade to do this task. Filtering out the bacteria itself is also doable cheaply. Stuff that is virus-sized is harder, but luckily most viruses that are “airborne” are really just propelled around via sneeze-style water droplets rather than actually able to live as a dry gas.

        Where a surgical mask either works or fails is what particle size it’s rated for, and how well it’s attached to your face – if it’s easy to breath “around” it instead of through it, then it’s not really going to do anything but block very direct splatter.

    4. Anxa*

      The effectiveness of a surgical mask in preventing catching an airborne or droplet transmitted disease depends in part of the material and construction of the mask.

      There are a lot of conflicting studies on just how effective surgical masks (or any mask) are in preventing the transmission of disease. And remember that in healthcare it’s not just about protecting the staff from a patient, but the patient from the staff.

      In general they seem to be more useful for bacterial transmission than viral. If having a facemask prevents you from touching your face, that can be a big help. I tend to fiddle around with them, so I sometimes skip them when they are optional (where I’m not wearing them over health concerns, but rather over concerns about contaminating samples of things) because the last thing I need to be doing is touching my face. Which is just my way of saying you need to consider how you’d actually used them.

    5. Library Director*

      You’ve gotten some good feedback already. A few more ideas that help me be flu free.
      1. Blow your nose. When you get off the train, bus, etc., step aside and blow your nose to help clear it of icky germs.
      2. When you get to work rinse your mouth. Mouthwash is best, but even if it’s just water it will help.
      3. Of course wash your hands. Not just sanitizer, but actively washing at least 30 seconds.
      4. Avoid touching your face. Hard, but one of the best defenses.

      I began doing this when I worked at a school and never get a flu shot. I haven’t had the flu in years. During flu season I’ll up my mouth wash routine.

    6. Observer*

      Gloves during warm weather and a face mask are good ways of drawing the wrong kind of attention. If you “Look” Moslem or are black, that’s likely to mean brushes with police. In any case, if your coworkers or bosses see you doing this, it’s likely to cause some serious blowback.

  52. Awkward Interviewee*

    Question for people who have experience in higher ed:

    I’m currently long distance job searching. I applied for a job that closed in early July, we’ll call it Teapot Studies Program Advisor (staff job, not faculty) at, say, Beverage University. The job seemed like it could possibly be a really good fit for me. I was a bit surprised to not get even a phone interview, for several reasons: I met all the required and preferred qualifications, I have experience in a very similar role, the posting said there were two openings, the app got emailed to teapotstudiesprogram at beverage university dot edu so there wasn’t an online app system to eat my application, and I think my materials are decent – I’m getting a 50% response rate which seems good for long distance.

    Earlier this week the job opening was reposted. It’s word for word the same as the one from 2 months ago. I guess I will apply again. It seems more likely that they’re scrapping the old search and re-doing it, because if they really thought most of the old pool was poor surely they would have interviewed me? I know everyone thinks they’re special and should get an interview, even if they shouldn’t… but I really am a good candidate for this job assuming the job posting was accurate. So the question: Should I just send in my materials again without mention of the previous app, or should I include something about having applied previously in either my cover letter or email? (I attach the cover letter and just send a brief I’m applying for X job type message in the text of the email.)

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed. If it’s a large university, go ahead and re-apply. The supervisor may have changed. If you really are qualified for the role, go for it! But mention in your email that you applied previously.

      1. Ella*

        Ditto to this. Also, if you don’t get a response, it could be because they have a huge response rate. I work in higher ed, and we get sooo many applications (sometimes 100+) for a lot of our postings. So for us a lot of time we’re picking from the cream of the crop of those, and there are plenty of qualified candidates who don’t even get a phone interview.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Agreed. They may have limited their initial applicant pool to local candidates, only to find they weren’t satisfied and are now reaching out again.

          1. Awkward Interviewee*

            Yeah, I figured one or both of these points was why I didn’t get that initial interview. Now that it’s been reposted, who knows!

      2. SophieChotek*

        I did post those two earlier related discussion but I do agree, you should reapply.
        When I was a grad student, there was a position open in our department (admittedly faculty, not staff) and we had a round of interview; no one was hired. The job position (or something) slightly changed. For reasons I never understood (and I was not alone), the people who applied first time were not asked to reapply (even though all of them were more qualified then the applicants we got for 2nd round) — and te person we hired was not as qualified or as advanced in their field. People who were passed over 1st time have since gone on to become leaders in the field. Eh. In this case I wish those 1st round people had applied again…but may have been unsure…

    3. dear liza dear liza*

      I work at a big state university and all kinds of weird things happen with searches. It’s very possible that this job posting will have a different search committee makeup, and the new members may like your application more. It’s not uncommon for people to reapply, so I wouldn’t feel the need to mention I’d applied earlier. Good luck!

    4. IvyGirl*

      Reapply. But first-

      Double-check everything – EVERY. THING. On your resume. Make sure that nothing is misspelled or repeated. Typically there are hundreds of applications/resumes that have to be reviewed and a misspelling could get you placed in the circular file.

      Make sure you have a cover letter that explains that you are purposefully looking in that geographical area. Explaining the longer distance search in the cover letter/email will also help keep your resume out of the wrong pile. As a higher ed hiring manager for an admin/staff job, unless I can understand why you’re applying to this lower level job from 300 miles away, I’d chalk your application up to desperation or not reading the job posting carefully.

      1. Awkward Interviewee*

        Thanks, this is good advice. I’m trying to relocate to where my fiancee lives, about 600 miles away. I feel weird about talking about my fiancee in a cover letter, so I usually put something like “I’m planning to relocate to the [city] area…” in the first paragraph of my cover letters. I hope this is enough? I’m mostly applying to jobs that would be lateral moves for me, but many (including this one) are looking for at least 3 years of related experience (I have 5.5 full time and 3 part time) and are posted on external sites such as higher ed jobs dot com, so I’m hoping that they’re willing to consider external candidates. I’m sure it depends on the pools of applicants they get, though!

          1. vpc*

            one for boys, two for girls. Because it’s a french word that’s gendered – “fiancé” describes a man, and “fiancée” describes the same relationship but with an extra e to denote that the person it’s describing is a woman.

            Same with “né” and “née”, as in “born with the name of” as used in old-fashioned novels. Like “Mary Smith, née Mary Jones” to describe a woman who has gotten married and changed her name, or maybe even “Mike Smith, né Mary Jones”. Though I’m not sure about that one.

            1. a*

              To clarify, when you say “Mike Smith, né Mary Jones,” are you talking about a trans man? I’ve only heard “né(e)” used in the context of marriage-related name changes, but it would make a lot of sense for trans people too.

            2. migrant worker*

              you can also say fiancé with one e as a gender-neutral term for either. though of course then you’re entering the discussion of why is the female version the inflected version… :)

        2. IvyGirl*

          Yes – just that you’re actively searching in a different area on purpose, not the reasons why. A lot of higher ed jobs are on the lower end of the payscale, so as a hiring manager I’d question why someone from DC applied for a Clerk III position in Maine.

    5. Lia*

      We’re about to repost a job where search #1 totally failed –we didn’t even get to the interview stage. However, although we are re-writing it and some of those prior applicants might be qualified for the new posting, we are forbidden from reaching back out to applicants to encourage them to apply again.

      There are a zillion reasons why it may have been reposted. Management changes, funding changes (I have seen this a lot — the funding stops, so they pull the posting until funding is restored, but if it comes from a different source, the search may be scrapped), other staff leaving, priority changes…

      TL:DR: reapply!

    7. Yup*

      Just a note about the long distance — this is SO common in academia, it’s honestly one of the sectors in which geography is not a factor at all. Moving for a job is absolutely the norm (not just for faculty) so don’t even feel like you need to explain it.

      Also summer is a bad time for searches; like others, I’d reapply without mention of the 1st application.

      1. IvyGirl*

        I’d grant it’s common for faculty and high level administration, but not so much for regular administrative/managerial staff.

  53. Menacia*

    I have decided to start (consciously) not caring as much I usually do about my job. I can see that it’s gotten me nowhere to care so much, and it’s even annoying to some (have no idea why!). So now when I see something that needs doing, I’ll just ignore it, like everyone else does. I’m done.

    1. Leatherwings*

      This can be useful and important! Sometimes stepping back can actually make you more productive, and definitely help your mental health. Sorry for whatever you’re going through, I hope it gets better soon.

    3. MouseCopper*

      I have found there is a happy middle ground. I care about things that my manager says are mine. I note things that I believe related to what manager has said are “mine” but that they have not. If something goes wrong with the “noted” stuff. I just let it go.

      That’s super hard for me! But I find repeating “no one appreciates you trying to help with this” helps a lot.

      Often, not always, but often. I get pulled in on these “noted” items and I wow people with what I can show/prepare. At that point they are willing to listen to a problem I saw from day 1.

      A lot of it boils down to knowing when your audience is receptive. If you push they will never listen no matter how right you are.

  54. Melonie M.*

    Should I tell my boss I’ve decided to go back to school?
    I’ve worked full-time in a small family run title insurance company for the past 13 years. I stared out as a young single mom who was just happy to get a job to take care of myself and my little son. Since then, I got married and had 3 more kids. I’ve been in survival mode for a long time and didn’t have much room for asking myself what I really wanted because I had to think about bringing home 1/2 the income. Back in January, I came to two realizations, 1) my current job is dead-end unless I was related to the right people. i.e. family in management. And 2) just bringing a paycheck home isn’t going to cut it anymore. So with that in mind, I started taking online classes since May so I can obtain my Bleachers in Business. It will be a long road for sure because I can only take one class at a time. The thing is I’m a very privet person and don’t like people knowing my personal life details. To me, the more people know about you, the more they can use agents you, and I’ve seen that happen in my office. I also don’t have interest in perusing a career in Title insurance so my aim is to find another job once I complete my degree. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m doing this to help their company grow in the future. Me doing this is not to benefit them So can I keep it to myself? What are the pros and cons not sharing vs. letting her (my boss) know?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      No, do not tell them. I only told my boss because I would be unavailable one night per week due to my graduate course. I do regret telling her, though– I wish I’d said that I have a personal training appointment, or a medical thing.

      It can only be used against you, so there’s no real benefit to telling your employer.

    2. Emmie*

      It’s a know your own company thing. It sounds like you don’t want to tell them, so you are not obligated. Good companies will allow you to grow as your knowledge grows. I told a prior employer, and I received promotions as my knowledge grew. Congratulations! I am really proud of you for doing this. The time will pass regardless, so why not improve your skills! Good luck!

    3. Hellanon*

      I know it’s cell phone autocorrect but I am finding the idea of a school offering a Bleachers in Business very entertaining today…

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think you are over thinking this one. You don’t want to tell them so don’t tell them.
      I can’t think of any pro in favor of telling your boss given your givens.
      Enjoy your classes and much luck with your degree!

  55. Aurion*

    Bit of awesomeness that made me smile :)

    My job is purchasing teapots for my company to sell. Couple of days ago one of my sales guys walked past my cube and was like “so those vanilla teapots are selling pretty well, huh?”

    I smiled and replied, “yeah, I didn’t think they would, since y’all axed the vanilla teapot line before I even got here.” (I reactivated the vanilla teapot line again at this person’s request.)

    Sales guy said, “that’s because the person before you was a complete joker. He just had…I dunno, all these crazy impractical ideas on a lark [insert various examples]…you are 1000x better than he was.”

    My predecessor seemed to have more knowledge–in other words, he knew more about fluid mechanics and teapot theory, but I’m better at just shutting up and supporting my sales team. They ask me for something, and I try to make it happen. And apparently it does get noticed!

    :) My typing got a lot more enthusiastic after that.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Yay! Isn’t it wonderful when people recognize you as an improvement?

      People seldom mention the guy who was previously in my role, but when they do, it’s with an air of… discomfort? I get the feeling that while he was good at the role, he wasn’t terribly friendly or helpful. Sometimes I have to remind myself that yes, I AM generally well-liked here!

  56. BRR*

    Any advice on how to handle a meager raise with an internal promotion? I’ve been told at the end of the year I will be receiving a promotion (let’s assume for my question my employer will follow through with no issue). This is a title and pay pump since my responsibilities will be expanding pretty significantly in the next month. Based on what I know about the organization, I think the salary is going to be on the low side (more like a COLA). I’m going to try and negotiate but am I limited because I have only been at this employer for around a year? If they won’t come up on pay I want to ask for more WFH time.

    I also would like to ask for a different title then what they will give me. The organization’s title structure doesn’t align with industry standards and it will be like going from teapot maker to senior teapot maker. Other organizations would call it assistant or associate director of teapot production. If I ask for the title change is it too much? Especially with adding director to the title?

    1. Anon Always*

      I think this may take a little research. Is there anyway to find out if the raise accompanying the promotion is even negotiable? In some organizations, it’s really not negotiable. You get promoted and then told what your raise will be. However, I also think it’s reasonable to look at what the market rate is for the new position and request that your salary be adjusted accordingly.

      In terms of the title change, some of that is going to depend on how rigidly your organization adheres to their title structures, and how changing your title to director make impact others that hold a similar role. It may be worth making a case for, but it may not be. I think it depends on your organization and their norms.

  57. Ye Gads Bunny*

    I’ve been temping at this company and it’s generally been a fantastic experience, I enjoy the work, I’ve contributed above and beyond my stated job and been praised for it, I was encouraged to apply for the open position when it was finally posted (actually before it was posted to external applicants which I am as a temp), I felt I did well in both interviews (with the hiring manager/also my supervisor and the panel) and a few weeks ago my supervisor said in confidence I was her choice for the position.

    But in the middle of the interview process I heard from HR I had been rejected from the position for not being qualified. The HR is widely known to be not great. A question my supervisor swears was supposed to not be mandatory was designated as such so unless I lied about my own experience, I was “not qualified.” (Don’t get me started on the job description HR put out or the qualifications – everything was very removed from the reality of the position.) My supervisor swore she was getting it all worked.

    I toddle along for six week thinking I will be permanent at this job I enjoy until last week when my supervisor calls me into her office to correct me that the field for this position is wide open, and she wanted to tell me as soon as possible. Also, new candidates have surfaced and been interviewed. (So clearly, she did not tell me as soon as possible.) She swears I still have a chance at the position but I don’t believe her for obvious reasons. Oh, she’ll have a decision or something by the end of August with HR straightened out.

    I’m completely unmotivated at work. I’ve started applying to other jobs, of course. But I still want this one which I’m good at. And for which my temp assignment appears to have no end. I literally wrote the manual for the position and helped trained the new permanent person in the other open position. (There are three teapot painters, there were two openings, one new teapot painters has been hired and the there’s the painter who’s been here for years and is wonderful, and me, the increasingly bitter temp.)

    I’ve been here 55 weeks, I’ve been temping 18 months and I’ve yet to have a real day off (I have sick leave, thank you city council in this town), I pay for my own inadequate health insurance (thank you obama!), and I am so tired.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Well, you’re doing all the right things. If the current job comes through, I’d take it. For now. However, if something else comes along, I’d seriously consider taking it if it were at all suitable for you (hours, pay, benefits). Even if your supervisor is supporting you, the HR department is not.

  58. Not Me*

    So my FMLA leave is about to run out. I’ve been out for several weeks due to extreme stress and panic attacks. I’ve been searching for a job, but so far have had nothing except an offer that represented a huge pay cut that I couldn’t afford to take. I’m starting to stress out about having to go back; according to a coworker, nothing has changed and the circumstances that caused me stress have not changed.

    No questions, really, just need some moral support. It makes me feel like throwing up when I think about going back.

    1. Menacia*

      Can you take care of yourself while back at your job? Meaning, taking breaks when needed (off-site if possible), and trying to confront what’s been causing you anxiety? There may be some tips and tricks that people can recommend if we know more about what specifically is causing you to have stress and panic attacks? Do you go to therapy at all, or could you start?

      1. Not Me*

        Thanks for your reply. I’m going to therapy and yes, I can take breaks. I can’t get too specific about what is causing me stress, except to say that I have over a decade of stellar performance reviews and then the current (new) management has given me terrible feedback and put me on a PIP for supposedly doing things that are impossible to do at the same time (such as “refusing to participate in meetings” while simultaneously “shutting down other peoples’ ideas”). There is a lot more but I am afraid of outing myself. I feel like every move I make and every piece of work I do is under intense scrutiny and they are looking for a reason to boot me out.

        My confidence is shot and I think maybe that’s why I’m not having much luck searching. It’s a mess.

        1. Menacia*

          Yup, I understand this completely, and I’m sorry this is happening to you. Hopefully you can focus your energies on getting out of that toxic environment. Hang in there, and use your support system as much as possible.

        2. Natalie*

          Have you discussed medication with your therapist? I know some are reticent to prescribe meds for anxiety particularly, and perhaps you have some concerns yourself, but it sounds like this is an extreme and time-limited situation so it might be worth looking into.

          Hang in there.

          1. Not Me*

            I’m medicated up to my ears, actually. It really has helped; at least I’m not crying around the clock any longer. I’m on anti-depressants and anxiety medications and it’s definitely helped to take the edge off but I still don’t know how I’m going to handle things when I go back.

  59. aspiring painter*

    This is work related in a marketing way. I’m a painter and I don’t have gallery representation. I’ve been doing it as a serious hobby for several years now and I’m pretty good, ya know, like in an amateur way.

    I do art fairs and stuff but often not many people come through and the ones that do are not looking for art. Selling someone a painting for their wall is tough because nobody is really in the market for that.

    I was wondering, I think people set up in the hallways at comic conventions and the like. Am I right about that? I was thinking of getting a day pass to the next con that comes through town and setting up my paintings in the hallway. I think people at a comic con would appreciate my stuff more than someone just out for an evening beer.

    Any ideas on marketing paintings locally? I know about most of the online sites. I’d like to reach a local audience.

    I am in a small Midwestern city and I don’t do manga.

    1. Manders*

      Unfortunately, those people who set up at tables haven’t just paid for a hall pass, they actually have to pay to rent the table, which is way more expensive. It can be lucrative for some artists, but I think prints usually sell best. I recommend getting in touch with whoever is running your local cons to get pricing information.

      Do you have an online presence? A whole lot of artists have found fan bases online, especially if they do science fiction/fantasy/fandom-type work. Once you have your own online portfolio, Tumblr and Reddit have very active communities of art aficionados (but make sure you watermark your work, because theft is rampant).

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’ve never been a vendor, but from the cons I’ve been to I’m pretty sure you have to pay to rent a table/booth to sell at most of them. At least the ones I’ve been to. But go ahead and ask! And think of it as an investment, you’d have to pay for a public space anyway, and if you find a convention that has an audience that might also like your style and/or subject matter, you should do better than just renting a booth or kiosk at a mall somewhere. Plus the time frame is easier.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, you’ll absolutely have to pay to exhibit. If you did manage to sneak in and set up a ninja display, the people who actually did pay to exhibit there would have you evicted in a heartbeat. Do you do *any* fandom-related art at all? If not, this probably isn’t a good audience for your work anyway.

      1. aspiring painter*

        I was thinking it would be more like art for backgrounds etc. You guys are convincing me I’m on the wrong track, which is fine. Thanks for the responses!

    4. aspiring painter*

      I’ve only ever been to one con but there are vendors inside the space who pay for table space, but aren’t there also people who just informally set up in the hallway outside? I seem to remember walking past people who had art stacked against the walls.

      Hmm this might just be a terrible idea. :\

      1. Aurion*

        Well, let’s say a convention was set up inside the convention hall of a building. You can’t exhibit inside the convention hall without paying the convention organizers for table space. If you managed to set up a display right outside the convention hall entrance, the convention organizers’d still be able to evict you, because you’re in the way, you’re not supposed to be using the entrance/exit spaces as display areas, and you’d be interfering with the convention traffic.

        If you managed to set up a display three hallways down or somewhere far away enough that the convention organizers wouldn’t notice/care, 1) you wouldn’t be able to take advantage of the convention traffic, and 2) the security of the convention hall/building will evict you because you likely did not pay to rent out their space.

        I don’t think this idea will work at all, sorry.

    5. TeaPotDesigner*

      The convention crowd is often more fanart based, and from what I can see your art is more original. I don’t think it is totally out of the question for you to sell, but you will definitely need to build up a strong web following first via tumblr and deviantart. I know of several webcomic artists who do original comics and have occasional convention appearances.

      1. Kelly L.*

        In my experience, it does need to be science fiction/fantasy to sell well at cons, but it doesn’t have to be fanart of a specific thing. So if you paint dragons, people will buy them, even if they’re not specifically GoT dragons or Tolkien dragons or whatever.

    6. LisaLee*

      Unless you do fandom-related art, I wouldn’t go to a comicon. It’s a pretty specific market.

      That said, I have seen steampunk or pop art stuff at lots of cons, so if that’s your thing you might have a shot. You might also look for art fairs aimed at a more casual audience (which might be called “craft fairs” or “craftaculars”). You could also try donating some paintings to a local charity auction. My local school district and local library both collect donated crafts for auctions.

    7. alice*

      Can you work with local businesses instead? A friend of mine is a painter, and she got a lot of her work put up in local coffee shops, real estate offices, insurance companies, etc. They didn’t pay her for this, but occasionally she makes a sale to a customer of one of those businesses (she has a little card with a price next to each piece). I honestly don’t know exactly how well this has worked for her, but it’s increased her business at least a little bit.

    8. Tris Prior*

      I’ve sold at cons – jewelry, though, not visual art. If you have fandom-related stuff or art that’s in any way nerdy or fantasy-related, that could do decently. In my experience, though, original paintings are a tough sell due to price point. People are looking for inexpensive art, in my experience. Can you get prints made and sell those? Bonus: making money repeatedly off of the same image that you painted once.

      Some cons also have art shows, where you can hang up your art for sale but don’t need to be at a booth the entire time. And that’s also often a little cheaper; sometimes you pay by the piece, rather than a flat fee for the whole booth.

      And, Manders is correct – you can’t just set up at a con, you have to register as an artist and pay for a table. Fees vary – I’ve paid as little as $25 and as much as $400.

      1. Allon-sy*

        +1 to the prints idea. I talked to an artist who paid off his house just by selling $5-$10 prints!

    9. aspiring painter*

      I really really appreciate everyone’s advice, my takeaway is that this is not a great idea. Thanks so much, I knew I would find plenty of people with the knowledge to answer my question here!

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Perhaps there might be some information/resources for you at this website: springboardforthearts (dot)org?

    10. Allon-sy*

      I don’t have anything to add about comic cons that no one else has said, but I, too, and an aspiring painter, getting ready to start selling and make myself known.

      Have you tried researching your local arts foundation/center for arts? I recently signed up for my local center’s classifieds mailing list. Each week they send me info about opportunities in my local area. Another idea would be First Friday/Art Walks. Usually people go there for Art (or I would hope so!), and hopefully buy stuff. (See, I’m new at this.)
      Do you have business cards you can pass out in case anyone wants to commission you, or later realizes they really want that piece of art they saw but couldn’t buy at the time?

    11. Self employed*

      Hang them in coffee shops/cafes/libraries/etc.? Talk to your friends who work in offices and have them hung there? I’ve seen paintings for sale with a little tag with the painter’s name and price (and maybe a website) so if someone likes it they can purchase it.

    12. Lizabeth*

      Build up an online clientele to support the local? Society Six website gives you a great deal of flexibility on what you put your images on.

  60. Jayne*

    I have been in my position for just over a year, and it’s my first professional level job, so there is a lot that I am still learning. In general, I am a major worrier/over thinker. I over think/worry about everything I do (should I have sent that e-mail? Did I send that call to the right person? Did I use the correct wording?) These are things that shouldn’t be a big deal, and I know I’m blowing out of proportion. I sometimes wonder if others see that I’m worrying too much (or is that in my head, too?). No one has told me, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. How do I calm myself down and let some of these petty things go?

    1. Adam V*

      If you’re that worried, pop into the boss’ office when they’ve got a second and say “if you’ve got a few minutes, can we [have / schedule] a one-on-one meeting? I just want to make sure I’m doing everything well and I’m not missing anything important.” One-on-one meetings are good to have regularly, just to keep the two of you on the same page regarding your performance.

    2. Leatherwings*

      So I’m the same way, I panic about every little thing and constantly worry I’m being judged. The thing that has helped me the most is asking for direct feedback from my manager. I sat her down and said “I’m worrying my writing isn’t up to par because people have been editing my documents a lot. Can you give me some feedback on a few documents so I can make it better?”
      She ended up telling me it was all fine, and the editing thing was just an office culture thing. I have felt way better about it ever since.

      1. Jayne*

        Thanks for the advice! This is a really good idea – we don’t do this at all in my department. I like the idea of having regular meetings. If I’m told I’m doing great, that boosts my confidence for a few months and then if fades away again. A meeting every month or so should help me out.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      For me, the big realization came after working for maybe 18 months: done is (usually) better than perfect.

      On my first day at my first career-track job, I spent 4 hours editing a one-page newsletter insert (it should have taken me, like 30 minutes); I spent another 90 minutes crafting an email to someone introducing myself (that should have taken maybe 10 minutes, if I wanted to finesse it).

      Did those extra 210 minutes of editing make the insert that much better? Doubtful. My writing is good enough. I’m sure yours is as well. Just send the email. :)

      1. Jayne*

        I think that’s my problem – I have this idea that I should be perfect with everything I do, but there’s no way I can possibly achieve that!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Please get a drink with electrolytes in it. Worry can be mineral loss and it is vicious cycle because the more we worry the more minerals we lose.

      Step 2. What are you willing to do to calm down? Worry can be any number of things from lack of preparedness to rotten childhood. How well do you prepare for your work day? Do you tidy up and make a list for the next day each night? It’s amazing how much worry that can ease.
      Do you take walks? Worry can mean excessive energy, walks help to expend that energy and give us time to think. It also helps blood flow and organ function which in turn helps our minds to work clearer.

      Step 3. Plan what you will do when you catch yourself worrying. On some of the simpler stuff I can remind myself that “I have done this before and it went fine.” On some of the harder stuff sometimes I can tell myself, “This is like X last year, oh okay, I know how I want to handle it.”

      Step 4. Worry is a habit. It’s reasonable to assume this is how you run your personal life, also. So take the calming methods home with you and use them at home also.

      Some supervisors may be able to figure out that you worry too much. If it’s not hindering your work then they will say nothing. If your worry is slowing down your work process they will tell you to concentrate on the work itself. Overall if people figure out that you worry too much they will feel bad and wish they could help you. But you have to help you first, as you are doing here. Once you start to help yourself more and more people will be able to jump in and help.

      Years ago, I got a job in a new-to-me arena. The way I survived was I decided to take responsibility for mistakes that were mine. I decided, “Whatever it is, if it is my mistake I will just suck down the consequences.” Nothing ever worked into a big deal. It was all okay. I fixed my screw ups and other times I did nothing but good work. Kind of like what everyone else is doing also.

      It is amazing how freeing it is to say, “Well if I shouldn’t have sent that email, I will apologize, I will not make that particular mistake again and life will go on.” OR “If I call the wrong person, I will apologize for bothering them, try to find out the correct person and write that down so I don’t do it again.” OR “If the person understands my message then it must be I used the correct wording.” Tell yourself things like this as often as possible. And do it at home also.

  61. K Dot*

    Happy Friday!! I have a quick question: I had to mail (I know) an application in to a job and it had to be received by today. The posting gave a name & email for inquiries to be sent to. Would it be appropriate for me to email the person and verify that they received my application packet??

    1. Adam V*

      I wouldn’t, unless you have a specific reason not to trust the postal service in your area. I’d assume that it arrived and they’ll be in touch in some way when they’ve gone through all the applications.

      1. K Dot*

        Thank you!! I do live in an area with pretty crappy postal service but you’re right! I just need to trust that what will be will be!

        1. Adam V*

          See, in that case, I might actually consider dropping them an email. “I’ve been having issues with the postal service in my area and I wanted to ensure my application arrived.”

          (I’m still not *certain* I’d send the email, but I’d certainly be considering it a lot more.)

          1. K Dot*

            Thank you! I didn’t end up following up. I’m just going to hope/trust that THIS time, USPS got things right.

        2. Ella*

          I wouldn’t necessarily check, but next time I would recommend doing a delivery confirmation with post office. That way you know whether or not it’s been delivered, and you don’t have to bother them.

  62. AGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*

    I’ve had such a crap few weeks it’s really wearing me down. The user base I support is a combination of rude, obnoxious, ill-informed and unreasonably demanding and sometimes all four.

    Other support teams that my team rely have completely let us down and caused no end of crap for us and then refused point blank to help us fix the mess they made.

    The dba that supports my system accidentally junked a load of data from my production system and then tried to justify and explain it happened without so much as an apology. (for those that aren’t in tech what he did was same as trying to carry out brain surgery with a machete) he then got pissy with me calling him out on it.

    The team I’m in losing work to external 3rd parties at an alarming rate, and then come to us for all the donkey work as the business sponsors don’t actually know shit about what my team does or the complexity behind it and the most frustrating thing is they don’t have a clue how clueless they are and when they get things wrong it’s always down to the way me of my team have done something, never their fault.

    The team is badly under resourced but no effort is being made to hire anyone its a joke, my co-worker has been on holiday this week and again next week which hasn’t helped anything.

    I’m fed up of the lack of personal responsibility and accountability, but the senior management is a big waste of space and I wouldn’t trust them to keep a rabbit going with lettuce let alone manage the IT function of a Fortune 100 company.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This sucks. I hope you can get some rest and some down time from all this over the weekend.

  63. Dave*

    Had an interview in Monday. I had applied generally but they said they had a couple of positions they thought I might be s good fit for. Afterward I am less sure. They said they wanted somebody who would enjoy staring at numbers all day and that’s definitely not me. The other position would be a step backward in terms of my career. I am debating going back to them and saying “I really liked the company but I don’t know if these positions are a great fit. Please keep me in mind in the future, though!”

    Still feeling pretty disheartened by everything. Guess I just didn’t expect this to take so long. I also missed what might have been a good networking event this week due to other obligations.

  64. Michele*

    I’m at a point in my media career where I feel like a washout. Recently, I had two interviews, in which one of them was an associate editor (entry-level) position where the EIC basically looked at me and said you’re overqualified. In explaining that I’m looking to get my foot back in the door, and that my knowledge would be helpful in not having to be trained, but he didn’t seem convinced. Next year marks my 20th anniversary as a writer, and I feel that even with taking classes and getting new skills, plus having freelanced for 3 and a half years to stay current and pay bills, I’m not sure if I can continue this field anymore. Recently, a major client dropped me because they don’t want to pay business taxes to my home state, yet if I move to another state, they’ll take me back.

    1. Slippy*

      I’m not a tax person, but……..why would they be paying business taxes to your home state when you are essentially a separate business entity and they are presumably out of state? Also how much are they saving? This sounds a bit suspicious.

  65. LizB*

    I know I should probably just let this go, but I found it pretty annoying:

    I have a mandatory staff meeting on my calendar today for 1pm. I scheduled a client visit for 11:40, which would give me plenty of time to get to the meeting. This morning around 8:30, I had the following text exchange with my manager (all spelling preserved):

    Manager: If you don’t have this on ur calendar it might be a mistake on my side but there’s a meeting at 12pm today n it mandatory. Pls come.
    Me: I have the meeting on my calendar at 1pm, and I scheduled a client visit at 11:40 that I’d rather not reschedule if at all possible. Can I come in after I finish the visit?
    Manager: Yes the meeting is 1 to 2 but it’s a reminder so you don’t come late.

    Seriously?! I get giving people internal/”fake” deadlines for assignments, but telling me a meeting starts an hour earlier than it does on the off chance I’m going to be late? I’ve never been late to a staff meeting before, and I’m one of the top performers on my team. Am I wrong to find this really patronizing?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Maybe the first one (the meeting at 12pm) was a typo and the manager meant to write it’s 1-2pm (like in second text)?

      2. Balty*

        Is it really natural to say we’re going to have a meeting AT 1-2 pm? I thought most people would say the meeting is FROM 1-2pm. I hate to be pedantic but for that reason, I think he might have meant to type 12. It’s possible he just got the time messed up and didn’t want to fess up to is.

        1. Ife*

          People are pretty liberal with grammar at my workplace, so that sadly sounds totally natural to me now.

        2. LizB*

          English isn’t his first language, so it’s entirely possible. Or that he got the time messed up. Either way, not feeling so annoyed anymore. :)

  66. Lionheart26*

    My direct report is driving me batty. I consider myself a reasonable manager. I can handle people who make mistakes and need guidance. I can handle people who are highly strung. But by golly gosh it is draining to manage this one woman who is both.
    She often “knows better” and will ignore my direct instructions. But when I ask her to redo things I must use kid gloves or she cries and threatens to quit. Please do understand I am terribly conflict avoidant at the best of times. I am always kind and understanding when dealing with her. She is FAR too sensitive. Others in the team (of which she is the oldest and I am the youngest) are well aware of this and walk on eggshells around her. After I set tasks, she will often tell others to do things a different way. I have told them to ignore her and do as I have asked, but they are terrified of offending her and having to deal with the temper tantrum amd tears…..

    I have tried being nice. I have tried being firm. I have given coaching. I can’t fire her because she is the daughter of a national martyr and has lifetime tenure. My last resort is to whine and moan on aam.

      1. Leatherwings*

        Maybe you can even subtly encourage her to leave? When she threatens to quit you can say “I definitely get the sense that you’re not happy here, so maybe that is the right thing.”

        1. Mike C.*

          Why be subtle about this issue? It’s clearly a huge problem and subtlety isn’t working so far.

          1. Leatherwings*

            Because Lionheart said she isn’t allowed to fire her, I figured that applied to “heavily pressure to quit too” :)

      2. Rubyrose*

        I did this once! I inherited a 30 year employee who had been noticeably toxic for the last 15 years and would do absolutely nothing to either find something else or retrain. She was told when I came on board that I was her last chance.

        We were getting ready for a major system upgrade, for which she was the SME. I could tell she was starting her hardball “you can’t live without me” tactics. I assigned someone to shadow her and be her assistant.

        But the showdown came. After listening to her vent for 20 minutes, she got to the point of saying she should just quit. Everyone else in the past, at this point, had talked her down from that position. I just looked at her and told her she should do what was best for her. Within five minutes I had her email resignation, complete with final date.

        I immediately sent that to my manager, who was young, new to the job, and who talked to me about how I needed to get her back, given the upgrade. We took it to the client (who was the official CIO) who had been there the last 20 years. She backed me up.

        Life was so much easier for our organization after that.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      Let her quit. The next time she says it, then follow through with asking her what her last day will be. I’m assuming you are not in the US given the statement about being unable to fire her. You can’t let her treat the rest of your staff that way.

    4. TeaPotDesigner*

      Threatening to quit? In this economic climate? Man, she has balls of steel I will give her that.

    5. Adam V*

      Totally agreed with everyone – let her quit. Actually, I’d call her out on it – “Suzy, you’ve threatened to quit several times when I’ve asked you to do [X]. I’ve got the necessary forms right here, if you’re serious about quitting, but otherwise, I need you to commit to doing [X] moving forward. Can we agree on that, or would you like to schedule your last day?”

      1. Jennifer*

        Historical example of this: Salmon P. Chase was Lincoln’s secretary of the treasury and he quit FOUR TIMES. Usually when he was in a snit and wanting to make a point, probably not actually wanting to quit. After the FOURTH time, Lincoln finally accepted his resignation already and rolled with it.

    7. Menacia*

      Yes, like everyone has said already, call her out on her threats to quit, don’t back down because she’s just a bully.

    8. Lionheart26*

      Yep you are all right of course. They are empty threats, so I don’t think she would actually do it on her own accord. But perhaps next time I can say “maybe that’s the best thing for you given you seem so unhappy here” and see what happens.

      Correct, I’m not in the US. Actually I am an expat in a former soviet state so labor laws are very tight and Suzy’s position is here for as long as she wants it. I guess I need to convince her she doesn’t want it any more. Wish me luck!

      1. Emmie*

        In addition to her repeated requests to quit, she sounds like a disruptive and insubordinate employee. It’s unacceptable for others to manage her emotions to this extent, and that you have to correct her instructions to other people. I am not sure what is permissible for you to do in your country. In the US, I would address her performance issues, and follow through with termination / performance management options. I know conflict is uncomfortable, but I hope you can push yourself to become comfortable with addressing performance concerns more directly and having those tough conversations.

      2. Gandalf the Nude*

        That’s how my college roommate eventually ended it with her abusive ex. Ex would use “I’m breaking up with you” as a manipulative tactic during every fight they had, and finally roomie said, “Okay. I’ll send you your stuff.” Ex backpedaled, but my girl finally held firm. And I tell you what, we all threw a damn party, it was such a relief.

    9. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Oh man, this is a recipe for disaster. A conflict-avoidant boss and an untouchable employee. Oof.

      Agree that you should definitely not argue with her threat to quit. “Oh, yeah it sounds like that’ll be for the best.” The next step is she either leaves, or decides she does want to stay and you reset the terms of your relationship with her. “OK, I’m glad to hear that but I definitely need to see some improvement on some issues. I also need you to lower your hackles and be more open to feedback. Can you do that?”

      You should also work on your conflict avoidance. I hate conflict but it’s an essential part of management.

      1. Lionheart26*

        Weeeell, I wouldn’t necessarily agree I need to work on my conflict avoidance. There’s a place for it of course. And as much as I hate it, I am prepared to have difficult conversations when necessary.

        But I believe in choosing battles. I have to work with this woman every day. It makes far more sense for me to actively keep her calm and try to avoid upsetting her as much as possible. That way everyone can get their work done in a pleasant environment.

        For big problems with serious consequences, sure, I put her in her place and manage the fall-out (oh, the fall out!!) But for day-to-day minor things, I’m far more likely to say “Suzy you have a done a wonderful job with this, and I really appreciate all the effort and detail you have put into painting this teapot handle. Also, I want to remind you that the handle doesn’t actually need to be painted, and if you look at your task list again, you’ll see that actually we need to be mending the big crack in the lid. But the handle does look beautiful, and I appreciate all the effort you’ve spent working on that. Now, can you get the lid fixed by the end of today?”

        It works most of the time, but boy howdy it’s draining.

  67. Anon for today*

    Okay all, brace yourselves for a long one…
    TLDR: My job is making me lose my idealism, and compromising my ethics

    I work for a large for-profit company with a mission to provide essential services to disadvantaged people. My role is to advocate for an even-more-disadvantaged subset of the population we serve. I’ve only been here 6 months.

    I recently found out that the majority of the services I oversee are being cut for financial reasons. This will have a huge negative impact on the population it is my role to advocate for. I’ve made lots of arguments, but I have no power to change decisions at the top. My boss is of the opinion that we should just go to work and collect our paychecks–she’s been through enough at this company and she doesn’t want to make waves.

    It’s a highly regulated industry and my position is mandated by the state. The services being cut are also state mandated. I thought that cutting them might violate our legal responsibilities, but there’s a bit of a loophole so we are complying with the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. I’ve been told that my ethical arguments (that it’s the wrong thing to do) are moot since a team of lawyers has decided that we won’t technically be violating regulations.

    Since someone is legally required to be in my position, it’s unlikely I’ll get laid off, but I have no idea what I’m going to be doing or will be able to accomplish once these services end, other than handling complaints that the services are no longer available. It’s really hard to do my job and advocate for this group when I’m continually told not to question decisions above my pay grade. I’m not trying to be an upstart, and I get that this is a for-profit company. But I want to do my job and stand up for what’s right. I’m totally disheartened. I feel like my position has been turned into a figurehead that just does lip service to the idea of advocacy and equity, but is entirely ineffective.

    I’ve been okay with some of these cuts to a point, because I get these are business decisions, but at some point the issues start to infringe on my professional reputation and ethical obligations not to be complicit in being a jerk to the people I’m tasked with helping. I get the impression that I misunderstood the assignment and I was hired to be the doctor at the tobacco company who assures everyone that there are no health risks to smoking, when I thought I was going to be able to actually make changes that could help.

    What do I do? Is there a way to get my attitude in line with the company’s decisions that won’t compromise my principles and trample on what’s left of my idealistic spirit? If I leave to keep my ideals intact what do I say to future employers about leaving after 6 months without badmouthing my company? How would I even explain my resignation to others here? Am I abdicating my responsibilities if I start job hunting instead of digging in? Should I try to stick it out at least a year and see what happens? If I stay (by choice or financial necessity), how do I frame my lack of accomplishments if I can’t get any traction on getting actual work done? Help, please.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I’m really sorry you’re stuck in that situation – it sounds like the kind of thing that would drive me bonkers. I think you should probably try and stick it out to a year, and really focus on doing the best you can under the circumstances. But yeah, that stinks.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t know. Wow. I’d probably start looking myself, but in the meantime, can you compile information on alternative services for the clients, and are you allowed to refer them? That’s the first thing I would want to do, when they (rightfully) complain. If it were me and I weren’t allowed to refer and had to just say, “Too bad, so sad,” I’d probably be out the door as fast as possible.

      1. Anon for today*

        Yeah, I can’t refer them to other services because our company is legally required to provide these services for free. They’ve figured out a way to technically provide them, but in such a far inferior way as to be pretty awful. For example, let’s pretend I work in a prison and we are required to provide kosher meals for the Jewish prisoners. Instead of giving regular kosher meals, we decided to switch to kosher Soylent. It technically meets the requirement, but it’s really a crappy thing to do. I can tell the Jewish prisoners just to find food somewhere else though, because we are the agency responsible for feeding them.

    3. Jaydee*

      This is exactly the type of situation that phrases like “I found that the job was just not a very good fit for me and am looking for something that is more [insert qualities you want in a job here]” and “Initially I thought the job was going to be/involve more [good quality] but it turns out there was less of that than I thought. That is why I’m so interested in the position of [job you’re applying for].”

      You don’t have to tell potential employers that your current job is soul-sucking and demoralizing. You can just tell them it’s not a good fit and focus on what you think would be a good fit about the position you’re applying for.

    4. Mike C.*

      I would ask for some time with your state representatives – those in your district and those who serve on the appropriate committees. Outline the issues you’re facing and encourage them to change the laws such that the letter of the law better matches the spirit.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        This. And on your way out the door call the local newspaper and let them know too as an anonymous source.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The laws are not always ethical. Additionally there are spirit of the law people and literal reading of the law people.
      You are going to find this where ever you go.

      I guess my big question is what do you do for work each day now that your specialty has been removed? Honestly it sounds like you will sit at your desk all day and read AAM.

      Start looking. now. It will probably take you a bit of time to find something because this is the world we have. So start now. If your job turns the corner and becomes better you can always decline a job offer. But if you do not have a job offer and want one, it’s really tough to accept a job offer that is not there.

      Keep your explanations to interviewers very simple. “I was hired to do a particular task, that work was no longer needed and the work for my position floundered. I ended up with a position that was vastly different than the job I applied for.”

      When you show accomplishments, just reference what you did in the first six months.

    6. stk*

      That is an awful, awful situation that sadly, too many people in the support sectors will identify with. I don’t think anyone can make that call for you, but if you do quit, ‘Following some changes in management strategy, I wasn’t able to continue in the role in the way I wanted, so I’m looking for new opportunities’ should cover it.

      It sounds like you’ve already made all the arguments you could, but if you haven’t stressed the PR implications here, that might be one way to go. If your company has an ombudsman or other regulatory body that you could discuss your concerns with, I’d do that too. The lawyers might think that their vision of kosher soylent might fulfill the brief: they might be wrong, if the regulators say that it has to be of comparable standard to what everyone else is eating.

  68. Good_Intentions*

    Working with colleges and universities

    Happy Friday, AAM readers!

    I am a state coordinator for an organization working with colleges and universities to promote voter registration and ballot access leading up to the general election on Nov. 8.

    For the past few weeks, I have tried with limited success to reach out to my campus contacts. I have emailed, called and emailed again with support staff CC’d. I am walking the fine line between pleasantly persistent and annoying. However, I am on a tight deadline to hire student fellows by mid-September to register new voters.

    My extensive reading of the comments on this website lead me to believe many of you work on or with higher education institutions and might be able and/or willing to share some perspective on how best to reach my contacts at this very busy time during the academic year.

    Many thanks for any advice, suggestions and tactics you care to share.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Well, in most places this is the start of or just before the start of classes, so we are all in a state of mild chaos. I would wait till after Labor Day, if you can. Also, I would try to schedule an in person meet and greet. Take food. We like food.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        TotesMaGoats:

        Thanks for the thoughtful response.

        For a couple of the schools, I have scheduled post-Labor Day phone conversations.

        Many of the others are more challenging in that I cannot even receive confirmation that I have the correct contact or that the institution still wants to participate in the program.

        Regarding the physical meeting, I have been told that traveling is reserved mostly for student-centered events that focus on voting registration. Starting in late September, I will likely begin driving around the state to various voter registration table events and debate screenings. For now, the emphasis is on email and phone communication.

    2. Ella*

      This is a hugely busy time in hire ed. Calling is many times better than emailing, though I know you’ve done that. When you call, I’d apologetically acknowledge that you know it’s a busy time in the year, and you’re asking for whatever help. As Tote MaGoats said, in person can be good.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Ella:

        Thanks for the comment. I appreciate the inside scoop.

        I am a bit confused about the how stopping by a busy administrator’s office is better than asking for 10 minutes to discuss a student voter engagement plan. Could you explain? I am seeking out the least obtrusive ways to engage my contacts without taking up too much time for either party.

        Thanks again!

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Because they might just fit you in for 10 minutes if you’re there in front of them, but actually SCHEDULING 10 minutes means shifting existing crap around. And ain’t nobody got time for that.

          1. Good_Intentions*

            College Career Counselor:

            Thank you for your response.

            I would like to point out that driving four hours round trip for the possibility of having a 10-minute meeting is challenging to justify. My supervisor is unlikely to view eight such trips as a great use of my time or the organization’s limited resources.

            Still, I appreciate your insight.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Classes just started. This is one of the busiest times of the year, so your emails are probably getting deleted immediately, or filtered out until things calm down. Can you narrow down your contacts and try to push for an in-person meeting with one or two relevant people?

      A lot of your contacts may think you’re just trying to sell something, so an in-person conversation about your needs and goals would probably work best.

    4. dear liza dear liza*

      I assume your contacts had previously committed to work with you? If so, that’s the cudgel I’d wield to break through all the other chaos they’re dealing with this time of year. “Back in April, you had agreed to allow me to X; I need to do so by mid-September so time is at an essence. Let’s do this!”

      Right now, everyone has 99+ fires to put out, so good luck!

      1. Good_Intentions*

        dear liza dear liza:

        Yes, my contacts previously agreed to partner with the organization to promote voting awareness on college and university campuses. They are familiar with the organization and its mission and are voluntarily writing up plans and asking for funds to engage students as fellows.

        My supervisor approved a very detailed email that included an introduction from me, a summary of their plan and how it aligned with the org’s goals, next steps and a direct ask for the contact to email me back with a convenient time for a brief telephone chat about implementing the plan.

        I am very sympathetic to the chaotic schedules of administrators during the start of a new academic year. However, I still have a job to do and a supervisor who would like results.

    5. Hermione*

      Can I ask how easy/accessible you’re making your e-mails? I work in higher ed, and whenever a third party reaches out for a cause like this, or with internship/volunteering opportunities, the ones who made it easiest for me to act and accessible/quick for me to understand are the ones who get my attention.

      What I’m looking for in these sorts of e-mails is a headline that tells me exactly what you’re offering: Student Fellowships Opportunities – Application deadline Sept. 6th!

      Then I want the e-mail to read (briefly!):

      “Hi Hermione, (do your research!). My name is Good_Intentions and I work for ABC Vote! We are looking to hire x number of students to help people register to vote by Sept. 6th. Would you please (action: forward the below message to your students; post the below to your job opportunities board; connect me to 3-5 students who you think are responsible, outgoing, and politically-active (less likely to actually happen))?

      Please let me know when you (forward/post the message), so that we’ll expect responses from your students.

      Thank you so much!
      Good_Intentions

      —
      Extra details down here, including application information, website, contact info, and job description.

      As an AAM reader, I’m sure you’re doing something similar, but I’ve gotten enough e-mails with just paragraphs of text and no easy-to-find actionable items that I just pop them into my ignore folder and go on with my day that I figure it might be worth asking

      1. Hermione*

        I guess, what exactly are you looking for these administrators to do? If it’s something huge and strategic, I’m thinking that maybe we’re past the point that they’ll be willing to help you – this plan should have been put into place in July to schedule e-mails or events. If you’re just looking to hire student help or get the word out once or twice, then I think the e-mail I outlined above should help.

        1. Good_Intentions*

          Hermione:

          I appreciate your example, which is similar to the approved email I sent to each of the contacts my employer confirmed this spring.

          My tasks are to follow-up on the voter engagement plans these contacts created and submitted to the org earlier this summer. Some of the schools have very detailed plans and want to become certified as voter friendly, while others just have a general idea and may need resources.

          Additionally, I really need the schools with paid fellows to respond to my emails so that we can decide how to advertise and recruit students for the paid positions. We are targeting everyone in place by Sept. 13, which doesn’t allow for too much waiting.

    6. Emmie*

      Is there a way for you to stop your emails and calls until after the end of a school’s add / drop period? Taking a temporary break – and maybe organizing some behind-the-scenes things – would probably help. When I worked in higher ed, I’d be irritated that someone (i.e. a vendor, or non-essential request) repeatedly contacted me during a busy time. They’d transition to someone I was willing to call back to someone whose name I recognized and who seemed out of loop with higher ed demands. Please excuse me if this sounds harsh. I do not mean that you are that kind of person, but that taking a temp break from outreach might pay dividends in the long run.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Emmie:

        You’re not being harsh at all!

        To answer your question, no, I am unable to discontinue outreach efforts until the add/drop period has ended. I have a very tight timeline of needing to contact and get voting plans underway by the second week of September and hire nearly 20 student workers across the state. Therefore, I need to push for attention and timely action while not alienating allies and jeopardizing future partnerships.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I know you’ve said you’ve called. Are you getting voice mail and leaving messages that no one responds to? In the past, when I’ve had to deal with colleges and universities, I’ve had good luck in getting contact info by phoning department phone numbers. Usually, I’ll end up talking with department secretaries and they can usually tell me things like who’s on sabbatical, who’s currently teaching a course or currently working on campus. A lot of colleges are cutting back on their clerical support, though.

    8. pony tailed wonder*

      I work in a state university library and I would advise you to look up Constitution Day. Every educational institution that takes federal funds is required to celebrate Constitution Day. If you contact librarians with a programming idea of registering voters to celebrate C Day, you might get bites. The C Day thing passed in response to the 9-11 aftermath so some librarians might not know about it. I suggest librarians because the library I work at is hugely behind C Day. So think about adding a pitch to this audience. Freebie things that appeal to college kids besides food are things that they can wear that sets them apart personality wise like buttons for their backpacks or temporary tattooes. The I voted stickers on election day are huge so maybe riff off of that idea. We have buttons that say registered voter that are pretty hot. They go quickly in our promotional events.

      1. anon again*

        Also research if any of the schools have an American Democracy Project (ADP) program on their campus. The university I work for does and the program manager is the key contact for all things election related. If the schools you’re working with have an ADP manager, that person may be able to assist you with connecting to the right people to keep your project moving.

      2. Good_Intentions*

        Pony Tailed Wonder:

        Thank you for the suggestion. I must admit that I’m not familiar with Constitution Day, which sounds like a great concept to bolster awareness of our nation’s history and governmental structure. I appreciate your taking time to share the information and increase my knowledge. Thanks!

        For my position, I am focused primarily on National Voter Registration Day (NVRD) on Sept. 27. Most of the participating colleges already have planned voter registration events on their respective calendars. The students I’m hiring will barely have finished training when NVRD arrives.

        Goodness, it’s going to be a busy fall!

  69. LegacyDev*

    I can’t afford a local apartment on my current salary, but the commute to my (extremely cheap) distant home leaves me too worn out to job search. Saving tons of money, but suffering social and professional isolation. I think I could put my foot down and spend some of my savings to move closer, thereby enabling job hunting and professional development or I could job hunt, but put up with being even more exhausted and save even more money. I can’t decide which sacrifice to make.

    1. Adam V*

      I’d probably stay where I was and just put my efforts into doing a bunch of job searching on weekends. When you get a better-paying job, you can move into town and fix the isolation, but it’s hard to vote for “move into an apartment you can’t really afford”.

      (I know there are people who advocate for that, on the grounds that it’s extra motivation to try harder, but I’ve never really liked that sort of motivation, and I think it’d be extra depressing if you moved, tried everything but couldn’t find the right job, and ended up having to move back.)

    2. WS*

      I’m in this position now. My commute is (one-way) 1.5-2 hours, but I can’t afford to live any closer to my job on my salary. Even factoring in what I’d save on gas and tolls, I can’t afford a more local apartment. I’ve chosen to stay where I am and deal with the commute, because for me I’d rather deal with a stressful and exhausting commute now than try to move and risk my savings running out and being stuck with a lease I can’t afford.

      For what it’s worth, I’ve found that setting aside Saturday afternoon and Sunday mornings to job hunt works best for me. That way I’m not making myself more exhausted during the week, I have Saturday mornings to relax and rest, and I still have some time to myself Sunday evenings before work on Monday.

    3. Jaydee*

      I think it depends on length of time and where you ultimately want to be. If you’re trying to find a job closer to your current home, then it doesn’t make much sense to move closer to your job, even if it would make you less exhausted. If you are really wanting to find a new job in the city where you currently work, then you could put up with the added exhaustion for a little while – a couple of months, maybe – and reassess at that point. Or you could consider finding a roommate in the city where you work to share the expenses.

    4. Mike C.*

      I know these might not be available, but some things that made my last search a whole lot easier –

      1. I took a week off just to jumpstart my search. It gave me time to sleep and recharge a little bit, then I could do things like get my resume/basic letter sorted out, set up a host of bookmarks for custom searches on various sites/companies and so on. That way when I got back to work, my searches in the afternoon consisted of loading up all the bookmarks I had set up and I could look for new openings very quickly. It maybe took me 15-20 minutes every day to look. RSS feeds can do the same thing if the site allows.

      2. Consider paying someone to redo your resume. I’ve had incredible luck with Resumes to Interviews, and they charge a sliding fee based on years of experience. There are others out there of course, but they’re a good start.

      3. If you’re able, be choosy about the jobs and companies you’re applying for. Lots of half matches aren’t likely to get results for you. You’ll tune this in over time.

      Having these sorts of things done for me meant I could spend a lot less time on the search itself and I wouldn’t be burning myself out. It also meant that I didn’t have that a**hole in the back of my mind saying “why aren’t you looking for work!!!!” every time I was doing something else – I had already checked all of my sites for new jobs and sent in applications for the day, therefore there isn’t anything else I can do and I can do something else.

      Best of luck!

    5. Dawn*

      Would there be any way for you to afford just a room in a house, and have roommates? Not an ideal situation for sure, but if you could hack it for 6-12 months while you job search for a better job it would probably be better for your mental and physical health in the long run.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      A friend had a job about 50 miles from here. I thought she was going to end up sick. But she found that she could drive part way and take a bus the rest of the way.
      Another friend in a similar situation found someone at work who would share a ride. This person met my second friend at the next biggest town over from her. She would park and ride, then other weeks he would park and ride because she drove.

  70. goodnightgracie*

    New career at 53!! Yay!!!! A total re-do of my professional life and I could not be happier.

    5. Drew*

      Congratulations! My dad did the same thing and had a pleasant decade doing something he realized he wanted to do before retiring for realsies a year or so ago.

  71. Recent Grade*

    I’m a recent college grad, and I moved to a new city to begin my job search here. To tide me over, I got a job in a new location of a franchise I worked at in college (tutoring/learning type chain). I’m wondering if I should put it on my resume. I’d need two weeks for my notice period, but I don’t want the people I’m applying for to worry about why I’d leave a job after a month. (When I applied at the new location, I was very clear that it was a temporary thing, and they’re totally okay with that, especially since I don’t really have to go through training.) Also, I was promoted at the previous location, and at the new one, I was hired at my original role at the previous location (the job that probably 75% of employees in the chain do). I don’t think this adds anything to my resume, but on the other hand, I don’t want an employer that hires me to feel lied to when I need two weeks before I can start. Should I list it all under the same heading, and note the location in subheadings? Something like

    Tutoring Center
    Assistant (Month-Month, City1)
    -duty
    Tutor (Month-Month, City1; Month-Month, City2)
    -duty

    2. bb-great*

      I think the way you have it is good. It expresses that you have a job currently, but frames it more as transferring between locations than starting a whole new job. You could elaborate a little bit in the cover letter too.

  72. Audiophile*

    Has anyone encountered the new Workable ATS system? Also ADP’s new ATS system?

    These two manage give Taleo, Jazz, and even Resumator a run for their money in worst ATS systems. I didn’t think that was possible.

    1. Anxa*

      I freely admit that many good candidates can work around any ATS, but I sincerely believe that the move to these systems exacerbates the plight of the long-term unemployed and the difficult to employ.

      Which of course may be an employers prerogative, but I cannot understand how this is doesn’t seem to be part of the discussion in jobs-training programs and other government and non-profit org pushes to help reduce employment.

      As helpful as this website is, I which there was a Taleo and Company coach out there sometimes.

      1. Audiophile*

        I’m inclined to agree with you.

        While I’m not unemployed, and consider myself pretty lucky that I haven’t had much trouble finding positions to apply to or gaining interviews, these systems don’t help the candidate much.

        These specific systems don’t retain the applicant’s information, which just makes it more difficult.

        1. Anxa*

          I actually find that sometime the opposite is true, it retains information you didn’t mean it to.

          I have moved since opening an account, and not only is Taleo absolutely horrible about forcing you to keep one account linked to your SSN, it refuses to remember you’re information even when you have it written exactly write. I have used the same username/pw on the same login site only to have it remember it months after it had forgotten me an another. But then it would keep having half-baked memories of who I was and autopopulate information behind the scenes, some of which I had edited and saved with new info several times. I cannot believe this is a system that exists; it almost seems like you’d have to hire the most brilliant developers in the world and challenge them to build something like this.

          I can certainly understand the need or pressure to use an ATS and some are probably actually pretty good, but I am pretty sure I wouldn’t have gotten my current job if I had to get through the system on one of those (luckily I was able to hand in a resume and cover letter at a job fair).

          I wish there was a way it would retain information, but in a way that makes editing it very simple. Or that you could better build a resume bank and then select which pieces to include.

          I mean, yeah, that means that you are kind of selecting the best version of yourself for each job and kind of ‘cheating,’ but a resume lets you do that, too. They also take FOREVER (maybe not so bad if you only went to one college, had a few relevant jobs, etc.) when you’re in the cobbling together phase of trying to launch a career or get job to get you through.

          I just don’t understand when agencies are willing to send a person back to school on special funds with new skills and offer interview coaching, but there’s either no acknowledgment that so many employers use an ATS or they advise to try to get around it!

          1. Audiophile*

            You got a job from a job fair? I didn’t think such a person existed lol.

            I noticed with workable that there doesn’t seem to be a main account. Each website that uses it, would allow you to create an account and password. Except on some sites it remembers me.

            My last 2 jobs were applications sent directly to the employer, no rerouting through an ATS system.

            1. Anxa*

              Oh, it’s even worse than that.

              I went to the job fair with a few versions of resumes, but I was primarily interested in a specific job (at the school that hosted the fair). They had closed up their booth early, so I went to their offices and semi-sheepishly asked if I could drop off a resume.

              I had 3 messages within a week of them trying to schedule me in for an interview. I don’t even think they were that short-staffed, based on my hours.

              This wasn’t a full-time job, though, and back then they didn’t consistently post some of the part-time jobs on the website.

              1. Audiophile*

                Wow, that’s really interesting. Good for you!

                I haven’t been to a job fair in ages. Mainly because the few times I went, it just seemed impossible to get in front of companies.

  73. Alice*

    Advice or commiseration welcome

    I have an internal client who is pissed off about poor usability of an internal website. I agree that the problem should be fixed, and in fact reported weeks ago. I also reached out to Mr. Stroppy Internal Client to advise him of the problem and a workaround. But I can’t fix it myself and insulting me won’t make it happen any faster.
    How do I
    – get the responsible department to prioritize this?
    – avoid getting a reputation as someone who can’t follow through on promises to fix things?
    – get Mr Stroppy off my back?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Not sure about the first one, since I’m not at your company but for 2 and 3 I think you have to kill it with kindness. Let everyone know the actions you’ve taken (so that it’s not putting blame on the responsible department, since that’s not a good look) and be as gentle and responsive as possible.

      When Mr Stroppy insults you or demands to fix them problem, you can tell him “I totally agree, I’m frustrated with the problem as well and I definitely want to see it fixed. I did X and Y and forwarded a request to have it fixed, so I hope we can get the issue fixed asap. I’ll follow up next week and let you know where we’re at if I have any new information!”

      1. Alice*

        I took all your advice with a twist – I dropped by Mr Stroppy’s desk to have the conversation covering the points you mentioned. We’d never met in person, and I hope that the tension will ease a little now that he knows I’m a person. He was much less stroppy in person, credit where credit’s due.

        1. Leatherwings*

          Hahaha! That’s great. Hopefully meeting the person he’s being a dick to will put a stop to that.

    2. Temperance*

      Why can’t you remove yourself from the equation? You aren’t responsible for fixing things, Other Department is. Why not put Mr. Stroppy in contact with them?

      1. Alice*

        I considered that and may end up doing it eventually – Mr Stroppy, let me introduce you to Mr Lazy (or maybe Mr Incompetent… Or I suppose possibly Mr I Have Other Sensible Priorities)

  74. fishy*

    I’m trying to sort out what to do with regards to two jobs that I’ve applied for: one permanent, one temporary. Both are entry level positions.

    The permanent job is one that is pretty much exactly what I’m looking for. So far I have had one phone interview and one in-person interview with them. Obviously, it’s not guaranteed that I will get this job, but if they did want to hire me, I would very much want to take them up on it. When I asked them about their next steps, they said they’d get back to me by the end of next week and there would possibly be a second interview.

    For the temporary job, they’ve been pretty clear that they want to hire me on. I haven’t committed to it yet, though, and they technically haven’t committed to hiring me yet either (though they’ve already done a screening on me and told me that I passed). This job would last only three weeks, starting in late September and going into the first week of October. This job is not ideal for me at all for several reasons, but since it’s only three weeks, I guess I can deal with that. I don’t want to turn it down right now because the permanent job isn’t at all a sure thing.

    My question is this… what should I do if, hypothetically, the permanent job got back to me before the start date of the temp job and said they wanted to hire me?* Would it be unethical to turn down the temp job on short notice so that I could start at the permanent job sooner? (That would be my preference; I really wouldn’t want to work the temp job if I had any other options.) Or would it be better to tell the permanent job that I have this temporary assignment coming up and ask if they would wait for me? Would they wait for me for over three weeks when the position is pretty low-level? And finally, should I tell either or both of these employers right now that I’m considering taking a temp job/being considered for another job?

    *I’m asking about this case specifically just because the other cases are easier for me to plan for: if the people with the permanent job either don’t hire me or don’t get back to me until after I start the temp job, I would just go ahead with the temp job.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      This happened to me. I reached out to the permanent job and said something like, “Hi, I’m following up on our discussion re the position. I was really excited about our discussion regarding X and wanted to reiterate my sincere interest. I’ve received another offer [you don’t have to tell them it’s temporary] and I was wondering what your timeline is, since your company is my first choice. Thanks and I hope to hear from you soon.”

      Your wording may vary. Permanent Job got off their butts and made me an offer. At worst, they won’t reply or will say their timeline is very long, but at best, that might push them a little if you’re their first choice. (I was the first choice, which I didn’t know at the time but it did get results.)

      Good luck, and I hope you get the job!

      2. fishy*

        Thank you for the advice! I did try asking them about their timeline, but they just told me about the next step in the process (possible second interview) when I was more wondering how much longer the whole process was likely to take for whoever they want to hire so that I could estimate whether the dates of the temp job might be a problem or not. So maybe I can email them and be more specific in my question this time? They’ve actually been fairly speedy in their hiring process so far (it only took a few days after the phone interview for them to invite me for the in-person interview), so I’m not sure if they can move much faster than they’re already moving…

        Also, today the temp job emailed me some final paperwork to fill out. Is it okay to tell them that I’m interviewing for another position too and ask if I can take a little while to think it through…?

        1. Mreasy*

          I would say, you’re entry level and you don’t know who at the temp job might be in a position to help or hinder you later in your career, so best to stay on everyone’s good side, if possible.

          If you do end up having to move forward with the temp job, but are offered the perm job, let them know about your commitment to the temp position & ask if it will be a problem to delay your start date so that you can fulfil it.

          If perm job says that the offer doesn’t allow for the delay, then it seems like you have no choice but to turn down the temp job with short notice. But if the new perm job allows, it would be best (although probably annoying & frustrating) to fulfil the temp obligation.

  75. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    Two raves for my employer:

    1) I just had a great annual review. I got the highest rating, which is exciting — but more than that, the conversation itself was rich, focused on the work, plans going forward, etc. It was invigorating.

    2) We had to review/update our personal information in our HR systems this week (double check your address, etc.). The system required me to give my husband’s SSN. I sent a note to our HR administrator saying that I wasn’t comfortable sharing that (and didn’t see why it was relevant to my employer), and she immediately gave me a workaround and said she would work with the vendor to remove that requirement.

  76. anonymous rice sculpture enthusiast*

    Advice on an awkward situation: Someone I know socially reeeeeallllly wants to work where I work. I actually met her through a mutual friend in my rice sculpture enthusiasts group, who put her in touch with me for advice on getting into my industry, and we exchanged a few emails and had an informational interview. Shortly afterward this person also began coming to our rice sculpture events, and now we’ve been on weekend group trips together, volunteered together, etc. I think what bothers me is that she’s SO INTENSE about her desire to work for my employer. We’re in a “cool,” creative industry, and there are a lot of people who want to work here. She has some relevant skills, but she wouldn’t be an amazing candidate or anything, especially considering the number of applicants we get. Pretty much every time we hang out she makes a comment about hating her current job, and how much she REALLY REALLY wants to work at my employer and how it would be SO GREAT. (It’s actually a great place to work in terms of culture and benefits, but I’m pretty sure she’s just excited by the “cool” factor.) Last time she asked me if I could just hand her resume to someone (I said no). I think she expects me to help her because we’re friendly, but frankly I don’t want to. We just posted a new entry-level job, so this will definitely be coming up again, and I’m not sure whether to continue to dance around the subject or be blunt, and whether the theme of that bluntness should be 1) you’re not a great candidate, 2) there’s no such thing as a “dream job” (i.e.: CHILL) 3) I cannot personally help you, or some combination thereof.

    I will probably feel it out, and maybe just wanted to vent, but still, any advice is appreciated!

    1. Marcy*

      Hmm why not say you don’t have an in with the hiring manager, or that you’re not comfortable giving a professional referral for someone you’ve never worked with? I think 1) and 2) would probably not be taken well.

      1. Graciosa*

        Agree with this, with a slight preference for the latter option. The don’t-have-an-in-with-HM option leaves it open for her to argue that she just wants her resume hand delivered and it doesn’t matter if you have an in or not.

        Making it clear that you won’t get involved at all unless you have worked with someone professionally and can recommend them may avoid that.

        I recommend a very clear, firm NO because people like this don’t take hints.

        1. anonymous rice sculpture enthusiast*

          Thank you – I think this is good advice. (I have said in the past that I don’t know who the hiring managers are for particular positions or what they are looking for, and clearly that hasn’t stopped her.) I guess I was hesitant because our relationship did start with a professional informational interview in which she was very clear that she wanted to work for my company, but like, when I type that out it sounds ridiculous – it doesn’t mean I owe her anything.

          I think my problem is that I know I am where I am in my career because of the wonderful mentors who helped me, and now that I’m a few rungs up the ladder I want to be able to pay it forward, but that impulse keeps landing me in situations like this. I should probably work harder at finding people who are worth giving my help and energy to. (I managed an intern in my department for one semester and loved it, but sadly we’re not doing internships anymore!)

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Whether or not you can say this depends on the dynamic you have with her, but any way you could say, “You know, we get a lot of people who are super enthusiastic about working for us, but I think sometimes it works as a drawback because it makes it hard for them to evaluate us as a workplace with pros and cons like any other. It can even make the people who do the hiring uneasy because they know that there isn’t really any such thing as a dream job or a dream company.”

      1. anonymous rice sculpture enthusiast*

        This, this is exactly the answer I was looking for, thank you! I’m not sure if she will listen, but it’s something I would feel comfortable saying, and conveys that I think she should back off a bit for her own sake and not just because it’s wearing me out.

        1. JessaB*

          How about “I have so many friends that want to work here, cause it’s a great place, I can’t choose between them so to be fair to everyone, I’ve made it a rule not to recommend anyone. All I can suggest is to apply just like you would for any job. Even if I was making recommendations, we’re not allowed to bypass the normal hiring procedure.”

          1. neverjaunty*

            This is really good too, and comes across as the friendship being the reason you can’t recommend her – win-win.

    3. Jaguar*

      You could also just pass her resume along? You don’t have to personally recommend her or anything.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Eh, I wouldn’t. Passing her resume along comes with an implicit recommendation on some level, and she’s also risking diluting the impact of other resumes she might more actively want to pass along in the future.

        1. Jaguar*

          Anon Rice is also gatekeeping at that point. Just add a note saying, “An acquaintance of mine asked me to send along her resume.” Trust the people doing the actual screening / interviewing to assess her competency.

          It sounds like Anon doesn’t want to say no (presumably because “can you pass my resume along” is a pretty reasonable request) and doesn’t want the acquaintance to work there. The options are lying, saying no, or just pass it along and hope she doesn’t get hired. The last seems like the most ethical and course of least resistance.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It’s not gatekeeping though — nothing is keeping the friend from applying on her own. If Anon Rice doesn’t want to refer her, that’s totally her call to make.

            1. Candi*

              Passing the application on to HR might get it promptly round filed.

              One of the things Alison has repeatedly discussed is how companies can be very unhappy about bypassing the established application process, and the rarity of circumstances where it’s likely to do any good.

              So Bunny decides that she needs a new receptionist and taps Chumley as the HR guy. The ad says to direct all applications to him. But someone prevails on Skeeve to hand their application directly to Bunny, because they’re friends and all. Skeeve agrees (because he’s really bad at saying no).

              Bunny is well within her rights to feed that paper to Gleep without ever looking at it. Because that guy deliberately bypassed the procedure she set up.

              (I’m not a GoT fan. My apologies.)

  77. Tookie Clothespin*

    I am hoping to get a job offer early next week for what would be my first full-time, hourly position. If I do get the offer, what details questions should I ask? I know the hourly rate and am definitely going to ask about benefits (not only insurance, but also PTO/holidays etc.). Is there anything else I am missing that would help me make an informed decision?

    1. alice*

      I am an hourly employee as well, and I wished I’d asked these up front:

      1. How do they want you tracking your hours? (This is important if you end up working overtime)
      2. Do they expect you to answer emails/phone calls outside of work hours? If yes, you have to count that as part of your hours.

      That’s all I can think of right now.

  78. Marcy*

    I need a good way to tell my boss I don’t want to do something, without actually saying it outright. Long story short, I’ve been made the jack of all trades in my office because I can handle difficult clients. Whenever one of my coworkers get into a spat with a client, lo and behold, I get transferred the project. It’s gotten to the point where I’ve taken over three other projects now because the relationship between the client and my coworkers had gotten toxic and a fresh face was needed.

    I’ve just gotten assigned another humongous project in an area that I have no experience in, and which I had mentioned when I was hired and at all subsequent reviews that I absolutely do not want to get involved with. I know it’s because the client had a huge fight with one of my coworkers. My boss assigned it to me over email under the guise of “Here’s an opportunity to learn something new.” I get pretty upset when I think about this, so I’m just looking for advice on a script so I can stay calm and on message when I talk to my boss about it.

    Also, these additional assignments (on top of my regular workload) do not equate to additional pay, title or any other perks, and it’s been made clear that they never will, so I have no real incentive to jump on this as an opportunity.

    1. Adam V*

      You could try “this is going to require a lot of time spent catching up on our history with the client and learning their system, and I’m worried it’s going to come at a cost to all of my other clients, most of whom I took over in an unfavorable state and might not be able to hand off to someone else without risking the client relationship again.”.

      Or you could try “I’m sorry, but the deal with client X is in a tenuous state at the moment, and I really don’t have time to take on another difficult client at the moment”.

      But it sounds like you may just get stuck with this one, unfortunately. Your manager doesn’t sound like he gives much thought to your feelings in these situations.

    2. neverjaunty*

      Also, maybe turn that whole ‘opportunity’ BS around on your boss? “I feel like I’ve been hogging a lot of the learning opportunities on this, and Fergus and Jane aren’t going to get the same chances I’ve had to improve my skills. It seems like it would be fairer to them to let Jane have the chance to get this one.”

      Also also, sounds like you may want to dust off your resume. Companies that punish competence and enthusiasm don’t, as you note, tend to improve or rethink that approach over time.

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I think the script we see here often of “I can do X but that means I can’t do A B C and D” might work. So, in your case “As you know, I am responsible for A B C and D. Due to various events, X Y and Z have started to come to me, and there just isn’t time to complete A B C D X Y and Z, especially when I have no background in Z. So I’d like to know what your preference is here. Do I continue with A B C and D, and give X Y and Z back to those with the specific knowledge required? Or do I drop A B C and D to focus on learning Z and completing X Y and Z?”

    4. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      “Boss, while I truly appreciate the opportunity to try new things and grow, I can’t help but notice many of these opportunities only come to me when the project is already at the crisis point and you need me to fix it. I think other employees might benefit from the opportunity to see their own projects to completion instead of me fixing them for them. After all, we ideally want more than one person who can handle resolving tricky situations!”

  79. Helpful Marketing Assistant*

    TL;DR: Looking for ways to help our clients build simple websites for their businesses.

    So, I work for a company that runs an online auction website; only contracted affiliates can post auctions. We encourage all our affiliates to have a web presence other than their profile on our site, but a lot of them wouldn’t have the first clue how to do a website even with something like Wix, and definitely aren’t going to prioritize budgeting for a professional designer. My boss, the marketing director, would love to be able to offer a basic website build as part of our marketing options, but we’re not quite sure how to put that into practice. He is envisioning a “template” that we could set up and then somehow share with affiliates and they just have to drop in their own text, but none of the build-your-own-website platforms that I looked at support anything like that, and it seems overly complicated to set something up on their behalf and then try to figure out how to transfer control (and I really do not want to get into trying to explain to people how to purchase hosting blah blah).

    Does anyone have any other suggestions for how we could make this work?

    1. Manders*

      Maybe you could host a short bio/description of each company on a set of pages on your own domain? That way you could control the template and your affiliates could just send in text for you to copy and paste. It’s a little more work in the short term, but waaaaay less work than hand-holding people through the process of setting up and maintaining a site.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Your boss’s’ idea could work — our company is working on doing something very similar to that idea — we set up the website, they send us the text/jpeg for their company — and then we are good to go. But I am not on the tech end at all, so I am not sure how we negotiated that from our web-builders. (I technically have access to drop the text they would send us into the form and could upload the jpeg). But from a technical standpoint, I don’t know how we did it.

    3. Observer*

      Get someone who is comfortable with a CMS or even something as basic as WordPress. There are tons of themes, that you could customize a bit, and this would be a good way to get sites up and running pretty quickly.

  80. MegaMoose, Esq.*

    My job is pretty much 100% QC these days, which I’m fine with. What I’m not fine with is my team lead bringing other people in to help get our QC numbers up, but not instructing them clearly about what to change and what not to, enabling people to go rogue changing things however they want with no actual concern for our project instructions. So now I get to QC the QC team. Fun!

    FFS.

    1. Mike C.*

      Are there any regulatory standards you can point to? What sort of environment are you working under?

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Not really. I do document review, deciding if a document is responsive to one of our defined criteria, and if it needs redaction or to be withheld for privilege. It’s often fairly subjective and there are a lot of moving pieces, so QC is important to provide consistency between individual reviewers. That’s why if we have to pull in extra QC I strongly prefer they be given precise instructions on what they are authorized to change and ask them to run anything else by me. That did not happen this time.

  81. Madam Mope*

    Happy Friday everyone! Long time lurker, first time commenter here wanting to share something amusing that happened to me yesterday.

    I’ve spent the last few days reading through several resumes and cover letters for an admin position in my department. I start reading one cover letter, and got a really weird sense of déjà vu. On a hunch I pull up AAM. Sure enough, this person cribbed directly from this letter:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/heres-a-real-life-example-of-a-great-cover-letter-with-before-and-after-versions.html. All of the phrases are the same, all the wording, but with their experience instead of the original writer’s. Needless to say, this application is going directly to the bottom of the pile!

    Don’t plagiarize, folks!! You never know who might be reading the same websites that you are.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If you’re willing, please call them out on it! When I get these (because I get them too, which is so bizarre), I like replying with a flat “This letter appears to have been taken from (URL).”

      1. Madam Mope*

        It’s so hilarious to me that people will steal your letters and then….send them back to you? Like you wouldn’t notice!!!

        I did wonder if it would be appropriate to send something back to this person- I showed the letter to the other admins in the hiring committee so at least we all know to avoid this person in the future!

      1. Mike C.*

        This is a good point. I wouldn’t know if my paid resume writer was stealing unless someone else told me.

    3. Kelly L.*

      I once caught someone cribbing the art from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, because I myself read Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. Don’t plagiarize, because the admin might read romance blogs in her spare time!

    4. AlterKate*

      I had someone use the exact same letter in my company! They changed some details to fit their own background, but most of it was word for word. Even worse, they were applying for a management position. Sure, plagiarizer, we’d love for you to come and be an example of leadership for our team!

  82. Oh no not again*

    Just need to rant. Manager is pissed at me because I wouldn’t eat with everyone at an unpaid lunch “function” (I’m an hourly, non exempt employee. The lunch function was set up in a couple of rooms at work–this is an informal thing). I was called out as to why I didn’t do what I was told (eat with the group “as a team”). I explained that I’m an hourly non exempt employee who was off the clock and so I left the building. The manager accused me of implying that they were stupid (projection?) and saying that they know the law (and I’m thinking, OK, so if you know the law, why did you say we had to eat together “as a team” while we were off the clock? Why didn’t you say it was optional?). I noted that they went outside on a break with other people to smoke and emphasised that my leaving the building on my own time is like my “smoke break” (I no longer smoke, but I take the same breaks everyone else does and is entitled to). I don’t think they liked that, either (and I wasn’t throwing criticism for smoking–I understand the need for escape). I followed up with written word emphasising that I’m a team player on the clock, but off the clock is my time. I get a reply back: “it’s fine” and today I got the cold shoulder. This person was talking informally to everyone but me. I’m tired of people getting pissy with me when I’ve done nothing wrong. Pride gets in the way of apologies. My work place is disfunctional like that–you can calmly explain why you’re doing what you’re doing (even when you aren’t obligated to explain in the first place) and get treated like a turd. I hate it here, just have to swim in the cesspool just a bit longer. I also have to deal with a bully at work, but they’ve backed off for now because I stood up for myself. I have ONE person in my sphere who doesn’t pull this bill crap. They’re cool with me and I’m cool with them. It’s nice when there’s mutual respect. I’m going to keep the focus on me and do my job and try to ignore as much as the BS as possible.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Hm. I totally understand your frustration, I also hate things like this (I often need to go find a corner to sit in during the day because I require A LOT of alone time to be happy). That being said, it sounds like you handled this in a pretty… hostile (?) way. Responding to someone about why you didn’t join a team lunch with an explanation of the law isn’t going to be welcomed warmly by most people. It probably would’ve been better to say (BEFORE the lunch) “Hey, since this is mandatory we would have to be paid for this time. How would you like me to handle that on my timesheet?”

      And as a rule, bringing up other people’s time like the smoke breaks almost never goes over well. Finally, I think the email you sent probably came across like you were trying to document something which… again is pretty hostile. Saying things like “off the clock is my time” is just not the wording you’ll want to use in the future. I think if you take a more collegial tone and stance in the future you’ll have an easier time getting what you want.

      1. Oh no not again*

        I wasn’t being hostile, just matter of fact. I explained this only after I said I wasn’t joining and I was being told I had to do it. How else to explain without mentioning the law when they were implying that my using my time for myself is wrong, that by not participating that it looked bad for me ? It is the employers responsibility to let employees know they will be paid to participate ( and that’s not what they were doing, they WERE NOT paying us). I’m not a manager–if I would have asked to be paid for the function I would have teceived a very negative response. I mentioned the break because that what I took as well. Time outside the building. The written word was a text, not an email. Very informal, since I’ve worked with this person for many years.

        1. Oh no not again*

          Eta:. Wasn’t looking for advice anyhow, just ranting. It’s hard to fully explain the situation with limited words. I assert my boundaries when people insist on crossing them repeatedly. I will not change that. The other option would have been to go along with it. That’s not for me. My time is my time–Im surprised that is objectionable. Work time is their time. ???

        2. Leatherwings*

          I think it’s coming across as hostile – literally nobody in your story reacted well to what you’re saying. That’s a sign you need to take a step back and examine the way you’re approaching issues, and the tone you’re using. And that kind of thing shouldn’t go in a text anyways, that actually makes it worse.

          1. Oh no not again*

            They were being snippy with me before I explained that I’m non exempt. They were already mad. Not my fault. Not sure why you’re coming down hard on me. Like I said, I wasn’t looking for advice. No matter what I’d have done, I’d have receive a negative reaction. I was hoping to feel better after my first post, but now I’m upset again. Thank you.

            1. Oh no not again*

              Eta, “they” is singular. I’m trying to leave gender out of this. So it’s one person mad at me, not many.

            2. Leatherwings*

              That’s a bit unnecessary. I didn’t see your post about not wanting advice when I posted the second time so sorry about that, but I also think when you post in a public forum you can expect a response (especially on an advice column open thread where people typically look for advice) , and while mine was a tad blunt, I think it was pretty reasonable.

              I hope your workplace situation gets better.

              1. Oh no not again*

                Sure, but responses don’t always come in the form of advice. That’s why I wrote the first sentence as I did, but perhaps should have put after it ‘not looking for advice’. I will next time.

                As to the second part, a sincere thank you. I do, too. I’m working in getting out of here, improving myself in appearance and basic life skills (that’s a long story).

            3. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

              Well, your boss being pissy isn’t the end of the world. Even good bosses get snippy sometimes, because it’s really hard to be “on” and communicate perfectly with every employee 100% of the time. If the boss is generally happy with you, you’re probably ok.

              That being said – you were technically in the right, so you’ve got that going for you. But sometimes there’s value in finessing the responses just a wee bit so they come across a little softer. It’s kind of like when people say “‘no’ is a complete sentence.” Well, it IS, but is it the best sentence that will achieve what you want?

          2. Mike C.*

            I really feel like the OP’s coworkers are the hostile ones. Managers don’t get to control unpaid time like that, and they’re really being petty about it.

            1. Oh no not again*

              Thanks, Mike. There’s lots of dysfunction here that I can’t get into, so I’m looking to move on. Mostly because of the bully (different person and a lengthy story).

              1. Oh no not again*

                I wish I could go back and edit all of my auto correct fails. Wow, there’s a lot. Oh well, is what it is. So, apologies for the mistakes–it makes all my responses a bit harder to read. :/

              2. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

                Yeah, I get the sense that you’re more annoyed with your workplace than this one incident. I hope you find something new!

  83. Trans Inclusive Policies*

    Hi all,

    It’s Victoria Nonprofit (USA) here — just wanted to use the name field to highlight the subject of my question.

    My team is starting some work to develop policies that are more inclusive and welcoming of our transgender/gender non-conforming participants (and employees, but that’s beyond our scope). We’re looking at adjustments relating to facilities (bathrooms, housing & roommate assignments at offsite retreats, etc.); program content (curricula, employee skill & comfort in discussing gender identity); data management systems (CRMs/etc.); and communications.

    Can anyone point me in the direction of resources and best practices from trans-led organizations, or other organizations that have done this thoughtfully and thoroughly?

    Thank you!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Also: Please feel free to suggest other policies/areas that we should be considering!

    2. LisaLee*

      I don’t have any specific organizations to recommend, but one policy I really like (I’m queer, not trans, but I volunteer with LGBT-oriented publications) is asking applicants and new hires up front what pronouns they prefer, so no one feels weird about having to ask for their preferred pronouns.

      For example, an organization I volunteer for has these fields on their application:
      Legal Name
      Preferred Name
      Preferred Pronouns (with she/her, he/him, they/them, and an other field)

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Yes. This feels like one of the first, simple changes we can make to our forms (and email signatures and etc.). Thank you for lifting that up!

  84. Fourth Month*

    I’ve been laid off from both the jobs I’d held for two years. Job-hunting. Had a frustrating interview yesterday.

    My resume is like this:
    [Full-time administrative role at large company held for two years, in the field I was there to interview for]
    [Part-time editing position held over the same two-year period]
    [Four past positions connected with tourism and public history or performing]

    The interviewer fixated on the last part, and would. not. let. go. no matter how I assured her I was no longer interested in the performing arts or public history as a career path. “But I don’t want to hire you and then in a week have you saying, ‘I JUST ACCEPTED THIS WONDERFUL JOB WITH A MUSEUM!'” [waves her arms in a flighty, untrustworthy manner, to indicate what I will inevitably do to betray her trust]

    She didn’t trust me. It was awful. I don’t think I did act untrustworthy, but when she asked me questions about my past workplaces, a lot of my examples of things I liked, didn’t like, did well, messed up, etc., came from my past tourism-related workplaces. It’s inevitable, because I spent several years in those workplaces and had a lot of intense experiences there.

    What can I do to fix this so that the next interviewer will notice that I am interested in a professional career path and NOT interested in throwing it all away to, oh, say, go become a museum docent?

    My one idea is that I have to focus solely on my recent work history, when I talk to the next interviewer, and make sure all my strongest examples of my own behavior are drawn from there.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t think there is anything for you to fix here, as long as you’re doing the basics well (focusing on your accomplishments on your resume, using your cover letter to tell the story of why you will excel at the job for which you are applying). She’s an outlier. You don’t need to cater to potential future hers.

        1. Fourth Month*

          Yep. Please picture an elegant woman, dressed in a gorgeous suit with a gold blouse, sitting behind her desk waving her arms and doing little phony giggles to show the unreliable way in which I would inevitably faff off if she hired me.

    2. Temperance*

      She sounds wacky. Sometimes people are annoying and wacky. I mean that as an insult, BTW. You’re fine, she sounds like a jerk.

      Are you looking for jobs that are a step below your previous experience?

      1. Fourth Month*

        Ah, thanks!

        I’m looking for jobs that are about the same level of responsibility and pay, or a little higher. Are you thinking that, if I was looking for positions at a step down, managers might think I was slumming and therefore overqualified/ready to bail out on them in favor of something else?

    3. LisaLee*

      Ugh, unfortunately this kind of thing happens and I don’t think there’s much you can do about it. You could maybe have a statement like, “I’m looking to move out of the museum field and into the corporate world because of X and Y” prepared, but that still isn’t going to stop some people.

      I just had the same thing happen to me, actually. I volunteer right now at a literary magazine, and when the interviewer noticed it on my resume, she asked me if I also wrote. To which I said yes, it’s my hobby and I have a few things published. She latched on to the idea that I’m going to quit to be an author (because I like eating ramen, apparently, HA) and would. Not. Let. It. Go. Ultimately there’s nothing much you can do about it.

      1. Fourth Month*

        Solidarity! Yes, that’s exactly the tone that this interviewer took!

        Apparently there’s a lot of that kind of baseless skepticism around. My housemate, who, like me, is a writer who needs a stable day job, just had a frustrating interview where the manager got her talking about her interests, found out she was a writer, and then went, “Do you want to write full-time?”*significant eyebrow* The point being that anyone with a writing habit must be untrustworthy because they will inevitably ditch everything to go get fabulously rich writing bestsellers. Or something.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          One of my former managers at my current company said in my interview when she found out I’m a published author who gets royalty payments and isn’t just writing for myself, “Oh great – if we hire her, she’s going to become a bestseller and quit on us.” Never mind the fact that the job I was interviewing for was an eight month training program, and there was no way in hell I was going to become a bestseller in eight months, lol. I shrugged and said, “Clearly you haven’t seen my royalty checks.” She laughed and ended up hiring me anyway (and then became paranoid I was going to quit to become an actress again after finding out I do that too).

  85. TL -*

    This is a volunteer thing, which I hope is close enough to work/school (if not, I’ll repost this weekend.)

    I was really excited about joining a STEM outreach group started by people at workplace. It was advertised as a “go to schools in need and teach/share science!” thing, which is right up my alley. BUT when I went to meetings, it turns out it’s more “Address socioeconomic inequalites by developing young leaders through community service projects & develop intense mentor relationships with high school kids & do medical inequality information outreach in our work area” with a very badly designed science curriculum (I looked at it; it’s very badly designed and it sounds like it was also very badly taught). There’s also no support/training for teaching or mentoring students, much less at-risk youth, and nothing practical has been discussed or scheduled at meetings (more than 3 hrs of meetings at this point). There’s a shocking lack of respect for privacy – with less than 15 students, I feel you can’t share intimate details about the kids even if you don’t say their names. To top it all off, they’re looking for volunteers to do all the organizational work, communication/admin work, and fundraising work, because the 5 people who started it last year don’t have time and are “more big picture people and we aren’t good at that kind of stuff.”

    Apparently the guy who runs it thinks that if all we give the kids is a better understanding of the curriculum, we’re just doing this to pat ourselves on the back and we need to transform the kids into leaders that can turn around and fix their communities after they’ve gone to an Ivy League school and become superstars.

    Anyways, I’m bowing out of the group, but I actually think they’re not helping the kids and I kinda want to talk to the head of the group at least about the privacy issues. I’m not sure they’ll be receptive but I really don’t think they’re doing their students any favors here. :( Any suggestions on how to talk about this to people who are sure they are saving, if the not world, an underprivileged neighborhood?

    1. Adam V*

      I might skip that group altogether and call a nearby school and see if you could either work directly with them, or if there’s a different group you could join that actually does what you’re talking about. I don’t think I’d waste my time telling these group leaders “I don’t think what you’re doing is helping as much as it could”.

      1. TL -*

        I’m definitely not working with the group but I do want to try to talk about the privacy issues – the stuff they were sharing was way off-limits.

    2. Temperance*

      Trying to be gentle … but I’m not sure that there is a way that you can make them change the whole program since you quit. I also don’t really know what you mean about “privacy” – is it because people are talking about their assigned students? That’s really common and normal with these types of programs.

      1. TL -*

        I really just want to talk about the privacy issue – people talk about the kids, that’s not a big deal.

        What is a big deal is that they’re sharing things clearly told to them in confidence. This isn’t Jimmy struggles with math or Rita is the class clown things they are sharing. This is invoking mandated reporting type things.

      2. TL -*

        Oh, there’s not assigned students. The guy was just sharing stories about the students at the volunteer informational session so we could understand how hard their lives are.
        This wasn’t a “how do I handle X situation?” This was”a student told me this in confidence and I think it makes a great story to illustrate to a bunch of strangers (who will meet Student next month) how hard their life is.”

        1. Temperance*

          I think that could be really valuable information, FWIW … but also, if the person isn’t actually reporting, your group might be running afoul of the law. I don’t know where you are, but PA has really stringent requirements to do any work with children (which, incidentally, is why I stopped volunteering for a reading program – I don’t feel comfortable undergoing background checks that I find unnecessary) and strict rules for reporting and who must report.

          1. TL -*

            I disagree. I think the group should develope, implement, and discuss policies that allow for the mentors to treat students in a way that is mindful of various backgrounds but the student’s stories are their own and should only be shared as needed.

              1. Temperance*

                I still don’t see it as a big deal, but, FWIW, these kids already have tons of people involved in their lives, which is why they’ll share super private stuff with someone they just met.

                1. TL -*

                  I guess I just think that, outside of mandated reporting-type breaches of privact, children and teenagers are deserving of the same respect and privacy everyone else is. Even if tons of other adults know, it is still the student’s story to share.

                  FWIW, I have been the student with a story like that and the last thing I needed was every adult at school and extracurricular groups being told without my knowledge or permission. I expected my privacy to be respected as far as people were safely able to.

  86. Heather C.*

    Dos and don’ts for creating a useful/welcoming orientation for new hires?

    We are hiring a lot of people and we are realizing that the regular new hire orientation isn’t cutting it. HR will have the new person for the first day and the morning of their second day (tour of the building, paperwork, benefits, computer training, etc) and we need to train them after that. My department came up with a list of all of the trainings and meetings a new person would need and it’s five solid days’ worth of trainings and meetings. So their orientation will be 6 days. I don’t want the new hires to feel super overwhelmed and confused and not remember anything.

    I have already thought of some things:

    For example, I remember during my orientation (which was only three days, I think) by 3 pm every day I was so freaking tired. So I am making sure to schedule breaks and not have meetings run up right to the end of the day. Some of our training sessions are two hours so I am making sure there is only one two hour session per day. I also try to make sure that they are having lunch with someone each day their first week and that at least one lunch is with people in their position only. So all of the assistants will take a new assistant to lunch somewhere fun, etc.

    Any other ideas? Do you guys do anything special during your orientations or new hire training programs? Or is there anything you wish your company had done (or had not done) when you started?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Is there any way to ease them in and stretch out that five day block? That sounds like a LOT of training and I know I’m not alone in having a hard time learning from giant info-dumps.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Honestly it sounds like you’re doing great. The worst thing is leaving new hires on their own just to fiddle with their computers for days on end – way better to have specific trainings set up than plan to just “show them around and talk about some stuff.”

      Build in breaks, because the trainings probably will be a little overwhelmed. Make sure people have a way to take notes, and that they get a chance to meet with their direct manager for a one-on-one in the first couple of days. Also, giving them an agenda ahead of time will be good. Seems like you’re super prepared though :)

    3. Total Rando*

      I’m not sure what all your training is on, but maybe you could throw in some application with your trainings?

      So, I’m thinking like you have a training on XYZ system and then a quick assignment (preferably something that you actually need done – not just practice) so that they can apply the training and hopefully solidify it in their minds.

    4. The JMP*

      We always do something “fun” on the first day – not like going to a baseball game fun, but something that’s a lot more hands-on than classroom training. For us that involves offsite client interaction (new hires observe) so that they get an idea of how one of the main tasks of the job works and a bit of a break from lectures/presentations. Obviously this won’t work for all jobs/organizations, though.

    6. copy run start*

      If the person works in a cubicle farm, make a little map of the immediate area with people’s names on the cubes! I had an employer do this and it was FANTASTIC for me, since I’m terrible with names and faces. Not everyone displays their name tags prominently.

      This same place also had a schedule for the first week with dates, times and locations for trainings, meetings and downtimes. Breaks and lunch were built in.

      1. Ife*

        That is a great idea! You could add a map for remote employees too — “JoeBob (arrow to Scranton); Sheila (arrow to London), etc.”

        I am probably biased here because I received zero training when I started, but five days of training sounds amazing. Definitely give the new people a way to take notes and practice what they are learning, and try to get them some kind of training manual that summarizes everything. Make sure they know they can ask questions after they start working. Cheat sheets for common processes, a list of internal URLs, and a list of software that are necessary for my new person will also help you and them.

    7. vpc*

      Make sure to go through all the logistical stuff you can think of:
      * bathrooms here, here, and here
      * breakroom there, but don’t use the icemaker, it’s broken; if you finish the coffee in the pot, the tub is in the cupboard there, filters there, please make another pot
      * copier here and code is… if you need more paper you find it at… mailing documents happens like this…
      * emergency contact info: trade cell phone numbers!
      * how do you like to be notified when a sick day is needed morning of? phone, email, text message?
      * we mostly bring our lunches, but lunch options nearby include…
      * questions and can’t find me? go to any of these four people

  87. Anon Applicant*

    I’m considering applying to graduate school at a couple of state schools for a psychology program (MS or MA). I had serious health problems in college, which I have recovered from. My GPA, unfortunately, reflects it!

    My GPA is 2.65.
    I’m planning to take the GRE again, but my quantitative score was in the 56th percentile and my verbal score was in the 93rd.

    If I do apply, what can I do to help make up for the GPA? How should I explain it? Would “excuses” make a bad impression worse?

    1. Lia*

      With that GPA, yes, you need to retake the GRE for most programs.

      How was your GPA in your last two years? can you spin it with a higher GPA in your program? How are your references? Have you done any research with professors, or had jobs in that field?

      1. Anon Applicant*

        My GPA was pretty consistent throughout, but slightly higher in my program. My references from work are very good. My references from college would be okay, but not great. I did do some research. My research partner and I presented our work to some donors once.

    2. Jubilance*

      I got into the PhD Chemistry programs at 3 schools with a 2.7. I can’t tell you what my GRE scores were, but they were decent but not stellar. I had really strong letters of recommendation tho.

      So my suggestions – retake the GRE if you can and get the strongest letters you can as well.

      Best of luck!

      1. Anon Applicant*

        That’s great to hear. Thank you! I’ll get in touch with professors about those letters and get ready to retake the test.

    3. Mike C.*

      I had some advice from a mentor about this – get as high of a GPA as you can, and if your employer has a good reputation use that to your advantage. He once asked some admissions people about what they really care about when it comes to selecting students, and generally speaking they’re happy to take someone with a lower GPA if their GREs don’t bring down the program average.

      It makes sense to me – metrics matter everywhere.

    4. Chaordic One*

      In the essay part of the application you need to be up front and honest about the low GPA. You should certainly say that you had serious health problems in college, but don’t dwell on them and make it clear that they are (hopefully) in the past. This should only take about half a paragraph, and no more than a single one. Any more and it would come off like you were milking it or overcompensating. Be positive and tell them what you want to do with the degree and how your background, in combination with the degree will allow you to do so.

      Then there’s the matter of letters of recommendation. Letters from college professors that you have established a rapport with, and who were supportive of you, can certainly help. As would letters from former employers as to your character and work ethic. Ideally, you should have a letter or two from someone who also has a degree in psychology.

    5. YaH*

      My graduate degree is in the psychology/education field, and I got in with a 2.9 (I think- it was under 3.0) GPA and a GRE score that was well above the minimum requirement (Old scoring system= 1150 minimum, my score= 1300) and really good letters of recommendation from professors in my undergrad program and at my workplace, where I’d already been for 2 years. The program director said that she was initially concerned about my undergrad GPA, but my GRE scores, recommendation letters, and performance during the entrance interview (a day-long affair) convinced them to overlook the GPA.

      Which ended up being a good thing, as I graduated from my program with a 4.0, excellent letters of recommendation from my grad professors and internship supervisors, and am now in my tenth year of my career. :) Finding a career path I was passionate about was extremely motivating to give 100% of my energy and effort, unlike undergrad.

      Get as high of a GRE score as possible, the best professional recommendation letters you possibly can, and be prepared to show them how you’ve learned to problem-solve, be resilient, and wax poetic about why psychology is your One True Calling.

    6. vpc*

      I also had miserable undergrad GPA. I took three years off to work in my field with my BS, and then applied to grad schools with both experience and extremely strong letters of recommendation (and pretty high GRE scores).

      Take the GRE again, but if you have some experience in your field and good letters, that will help wash out your undergrad GPA. One of the things we struggled with in my grad program was students who came in with stellar undergrad GPA but no real-world experience: they could study, but they couldn’t problem-solve the way some of us with more work history could, because they got so hung up on “but it SHOULD WORK LIKE THAT!!” So I know from later conversations that the admissions committee for my particular school weighted experience at least equally to undergrad GPA when considering their decisions.

      And apply to a few schools. You only have to get into one!

  88. Vella*

    How would you handle this? I have a receptionist that has been here about less than 6 months and has been complaining that the company isn’t giving her a raise because we are spending “so much money” on a Christmas party instead. I’m getting annoyed with her attitude, but do not know how to address it. She feels entitled to a higher salary because “she does more than just answer the phones” (her exact words), but has yet to prove herself.

    1. Adam V*

      I would probably tell her something like “the company deals with salary adjustments at the beginning of each year, so we can revisit this conversation then, but in the meantime, I’d like for you to focus on doing an incredible job and making it easy for me to make a case for your raise when that time comes.”

      You can be direct if you need to – “I need you to stop bringing up your pay with regards to other company expenditures. Your complaint makes it sound like they put frivolity ahead of financial obligations, and that’s simply not the case.”

    2. Leatherwings*

      If you’re her direct manager, you should lay down the line
      “I want to let you know that we don’t typically consider giving raises until after the first year, which is pretty normal for any job. It’s not coming across well for you to keep complaining about this, and I need you to stop.”

    3. Vella*

      Thanks everyone, I am new to managing. Our company typically handles raises and performance reviews once a year, which just so happens to have been two months after she started. I’m guessing she heard from her the coworkers who she is friendly with of their raises, but was not considered for one because she hadn’t even gotten out of probation yet and is feeling some form of resentment that she has to wait until next year. We did do a performance review, sort of a recap of how she was going over the last two months, so I’m assuming she thought she was going to get a raise.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        In addition to everyone else’s advice (which I fully agree with; you need to shut this down — she’s doing herself no favors by these comments), you might explain to her that it’s not typical for workplaces to give raises before someone has been there a year. But mostly, shut it down. This is obnoxious, and if you let it continue, it will be harder to shut down later. (I’m also betting there are other issues with her; new hires who are going to be good at the job do not typically complain about the company’s holiday expenditures.)

    4. Temperance*

      Tell her about the yearly raise/promotion schedule, and what she needs to do to qualify. Affirm that the holiday party has literally nothing to do with her compensation.

      What exactly is she doing that is so wonderful, in her own mind?

          1. zora.dee*

            That post the other day about a “creative” cover letter where the guy wrote a bunch of weird sentences that made no sense.

    5. Vella*

      Hey everyone!

      Just a quick update on this.

      I had a conversation with her yesterday regarding her behaviour and she threw the biggest hissy fit! While I sat there listening to her rant and rave about how stressful her job is, that nobody has to deal with the amount of clients her does, and that she is underpaid, my boss walked by. She ended the conversation right then and there and took my receptionist to the owner’s office.

      Needless to say, I am now in need of a new receptionist.

  89. Mabel*

    The first person’s question about a noisy colleague reminded me of an issue I’m having at work. I thought I’d just have to put up with it, but you all might have some ideas for me. I work in an open plan seating area, and I usually sit at a high table that’s near one end of the large room. The people I work near can be quite loud, and when a meeting lets out from one of the nearby conference rooms, it’s quite loud. Later in the afternoon, people tend to talk loudly across aisles to each other. None of this bothers me while I’m working on my computer, but when I get on a call, it’s apparently quite loud to other people on the call; it has been mentioned several times by different people. I tell them right away that I’m at the office (so they don’t think I’m in a cafe or something) and that it’s just loud there (and I try to do this as loudly as I can without looking weird, hoping that the people around me will hear and quiet down, but it hasn’t happened yet). I mute my line as much as I can, but it’s still embarrassing, and besides that, I’d like to not have to deal with it. I just ordered a Bluetooth headset with noise cancelling, so that should help make it quieter to the other people on the calls. But there are times (no matter which headset I’m using) that I have to plug one ear and cup my hand around the headset on the other ear in order to hear. I can’t tell a room full of people to shut up, but I do try to be as obvious as I can about plugging my ear and talking a little louder. Any suggestions for what else I can do? I don’t want to have to book a conference room for every call (there can be several throughout the day), and when I have personal calls, I get up and go outside.

    1. zora.dee*

      You need to speak up and say something clear to everyone. They aren’t noticing that you are covering your ear, because that is not a clear enough signal that this is a problem for you. They probably aren’t ignoring you, it’s just that is not as obvious of a signal as you think it is.

      It’s not “telling people to shut up” you are explaining to them something they don’t realize: that the noise is too loud when you are on the phone in that space.

      What I would do: when it happens, ask the person on the phone to hold for a moment, put it on mute, then turn to the group, “I’m sorry folks, but I can’t hear my phone conversation right now, can we keep it down a bit? Thanks so much” in a nice tone, like you are asking them to help you out. You might need to do this a few times before it becomes a habit and they get used to being quieter when they are coming out of conference rooms. You can do a quicker version, where you don’t put the call on mute, but you just quickly turn to the loud people and say “I’m on the phone, can you be a little quieter? thank you” and continue your call.

      You can also address it as a whole, but only if there’s an opportunity like a staff meeting or something to bring it up to the group all together. “It’s really loud in the main room when I’m on the phone with clients(or whatever word will make them realize these are important calls). Is it possible to try to keep the volume lower when we are talking?” but it doesn’t sound like you have much of an opportunity for that.

      This is just the nature of open plan seating (and one reason I hate it) so I think you need to try to get over feeling frustrated or like you are “telling people to shut up” and get used to nicely asking for quiet every time you are on the phone. I doubt people will be offended, they probably honestly just don’t realize it’s a problem for you.

  90. Amber Rose*

    I need to do our safety audit and submit it and have it QA’d before Dec. 31. I have to be certified and pass two more courses first. In 2 days of training, 6 months of work somehow appeared on my desk.

    Sigh.

    I’m worried we are going to do bad on this audit. Nobody but me cares. How do I get everyone to remember everything they need to know so we don’t fail this thing? They seem to take it as a point of pride if they can’t name one of our 15 safety rules.

    1. Graciosa*

      Not what you asked, and I do sympathize but – FIFTEEN safety rules? Wow.

      Do you have any ability to get your safety rules down to a manageable number? Safety is so important that it should be simple and easy for everyone to remember and follow.

      If these *must* be so numerous, can you pass the audit if everyone has a cheat sheet and a process that requires them to check it at the right times? We use cards that hang behind our badges for anything essential to remember, but it’s never been more than five items. We do pass audits if we clearly have and use the correct reference.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We work in a dangerous industry. All but the last rule are required by our certifying agency. They aren’t that unintuitive I think: comply with OH&S, don’t use busted tools, don’t harass or try to kill people, refuse unsafe work, don’t mess around by the forklift, wear PPE, follow the dress code… stuff like that.

        1. LizB*

          Can you group rules by type, so there are 5 categories with 3 rules each? (Or 3 with 5?) Come up with an acronym?

          Although, like neverjaunty says, it seems like it would be better to let folks do badly on the audit and face consequences from management/regulators/whoever than try to artificially improve their performance just for audit time.

    2. neverjaunty*

      If they think it’s a good thing to be willfully ignorant of your safety rules, then let them fail. That’s kind of the point of the audit, right?

    3. Construction Safety*

      Prolly too late to get read, but there are only three safety rules:
      1) Never go beyond the level of your training (not been trained on the forklift? Stay off. Not been trained to use a grinder? Don’t use one. No CSE training? Stay out. Don’t know how to change the toner in the printer? Ask someone to show you how. )
      2) Never modify anything. (Permits, procedures, operating instructions, tools, equipment, checklists, etc.)
      3) Report anything unusual (Gee, the forklift never made that noise before. Do you smell natural gas? Why is there a guy wearing camo & carrying an assault rifle foe in the warehouse?)

  91. Isben Takes Tea*

    Weekly Procrastination Post
    I guess I’ll start this week’s! Go and do something you’ve been putting off RIGHT NOW and report back when you’ve finished!

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      I onboarded two vendors to our ridiculously difficult accounts payable database. Woo-hoo!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Did it already. I ran the data match so I could get a late document out next week before EOM. Of course, when I prodded the creator because the data dude said he would have everything entered a day early, I got snipped at. It’s not my fault you can’t manage your time, honey. We’ve already pushed this back once. >:P

    4. Anonyby*

      Replied to an email from a contractor that I’ve been dreading all day. Much less painless than I originally expected, though still slightly annoying because the same contractor’s assistant had emailed me a couple weeks requesting the same thing, which I cannot produce for them due to resource constraints.

  92. TMA*

    I work as a documentation lead for several software development teams. I’ve run into this issue over the course of two years I have been in this role, and I’m wondering if there are any solutions I have missed.

    We are required to complete dozens of documents for our customer, and the list of documents only keeps growing as our contracts expand and diversify. Some of them are redundant and not incredibly useful, but we are required by our customer (who is required to complete them by an even higher authority), and there is no way around it.

    My problem is that these documents are worked on by me and one other documentation specialist well in advance of the deadline. But when we try to get additional input on the document—because we don’t know all of the technical details—we rarely get timely responses.

    For example, we sent documents to some of the software developers and team leads at the beginning of July. We are in the end of August, and the documents are due at the end of the month, and we have finally gotten a response. This isn’t to say we haven’t reminded, and reminded, and reminded in various forms. Most of the teams have weekly or daily meetings, and these documents are mentioned over and over again. I, and my counterpart, clearly explain that when the documents are needed and that we need to reserve time for tech editing. We email, we call, we talk in person, all to no avail.

    I get that the development teams are busy. We have a lot of work coming in, and not enough bodies (we are rapidly hiring and subcontracting out), but usually the documents take an hour or two to complete once they just buckle down and get to it. They just need to fill in information we don’t know.

    I’m wondering if this is just par for the course or if I need to do something else to make this process more smoothly. Right now, my plan is to speak with our program manager (he oversees all of the software development teams) and ask for guidance because we have tried to fix this ourselves (by being more direct and consistently reminding people rather than waiting for them to have an epiphany and remember documentation on their own), and it hasn’t worked as well as I would have liked.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What are you sending them? It sounds like maybe you don’t need them to review the entire document, just answer some questions about what you don’t know… if that’s true, could you email them the actual questions, instead of sending a document and saying “review this?”

      1. TMA*

        Usually I send them the whole document, but it clearly labeled which sections need their attention. In the email, I usually just say something like, “Please add to the highlighted sections.”

        1. Dawn*

          Yeah but they still have to go through the entire document, find the highlighted sections, read them to figure out what they need to add, maybe even read before and after those sections to find out the context, and fill them out.

          You’d probably get WAY better response rates if you just pulled out what you need answers on, shot it to them in an email (not via attached document if at all possible), and just said “Hey Fred, got the X document all done except for these [number] of sections- really need your expertise on these. Can you respond in-line below and get this back to me by [three weeks from now], or would it be easier for us to schedule a meeting and you can dictate the answers to me then?”

          To you, who knows the document so well, them filling in answers seems super easy. To them, they’re getting this HUGE document, and have to take time out of their day to scan through it, find all the highlighted sections, fill them out, find out context, see if they missed a section, etc etc etc. It’s the kind of drudge work that people haaaaaate and so it’s going to get put off until the absolute last minute they can possibly get away with doing it, and even then they’re going to rush through it and half-ass.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This is what I do. Unless there are large amounts of them, and then I pull them out and put them in a smaller document. But an email usually is better.

            Beyond that, I can’t advise. I’m about BEC.

    2. Xarcady*

      Have you tried not giving them so much time to fill out the documents? Some people, when they know they have 5-6 weeks to do something, will prioritize everything else, and let the task with the longest deadline wait until they have time.

      So maybe send the documents early, but only give them two weeks to fill them out. If you get challenged on the shorter deadlines, point out that you need time to do your tech editing. Just don’t tell anyone exactly how much time you need.

    3. Graciosa*

      Sometimes standard processes with visible metrics can help.

      We had some similar issues, but we started automating the requests for input in a tracking system. It produces a regular report to the top level of management showing which teams are late.

      Top management does not want their peers thinking that they can’t manage their teams. They tend to pay attention to who screwed this up, and the people who got those messages did not repeat the offense.

      This is perceived a bit differently from complaining to a top manager directly – hey, it’s just the standard report! – and it can get results, although I really wish it wasn’t necessary.

    4. CAA*

      Yes, this is pretty much par for the course. I don’t know any software developers who will willingly write documentation if there’s any other work available that could be done instead.

      One thing that I have seen done is for the tech writer to setup an in person interview with the developer. Ask about each area where you need elaboration and either write the text together, or record the discussion and transcribe the answers later.

  93. Rusty Shackelford*

    I’m working on a new project with someone in my organization who I’ve never worked with before, and it turns out he is kind of chronically disgruntled. The first time I talked to him, I thought he was just having a bad day, but it’s the same thing every time we get together. And it’s bleeding into the conversation with the person we’re working with who isn’t in our organization, so I feel compelled to be extra cheery. It’s frustrating, but it’s also been a good reminder to try to display a positive attitude, lest I forever be labelled in someone’s mind as “Grouchy McBitchalot.”

  94. Red*

    Two things I’m pondering adding to my resume/cover letter repertoire, but not sure if or how or where.

    1. I’ve been working fully remotely for three years, both as a team member and a team leader, during which I’ve gotten excellent reviews, excelled at productivity (anywhere from 150-400% expected, according to the reports), been promoted, been selected as an “example of excellence” to represent my department in marketing campaigns, and generally been awesome at my job. Does that look awesome because I can rock my job with very little supervision and be self-motivated and all that jazz, or do I look like someone who’s going to be a pain in the butt with an in-sight manager because I’m used to the hands-off aspect?

    2. Similarly, while working full time in my career field and rocking as above, I completed a bachelors degree magna cum laude and am currently holding an A- average in two masters degree programs (should be done with both in 2018). Does that make me look focused and dedicated and awesome, or are people going to assume that because I’m trying to do both school and work, I’m clearly not going to do a full job of either?

    1. The Devil's Advocate*

      Most likely potential employers will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are NOT going to be a pain-in-the-butt with an on-site manager. At least initially, up until you give them a reason to think otherwise. Similarly, people are going to initially assume that you are focused and dedicated and awesome, again up until you demonstrate that you aren’t.

    2. YaH*

      I would be impressed and incredibly intimidated. :) I think the numbers speak for themselves- it’s crystal clear that you’re a catch.

  95. SRB*

    Hopefully not too late for this.
    Technical writer here. When I get comments back in a report, how can I *politely* address comments that are answered in literally the next damn paragraph? This has come up so much in the last month that I’m in full on BEC mode with certain individuals. For example, I’ll write something like:

    “Production of chocolate teapots is down 20% in January. Half of this decrease can be attributed to the fact that 2 teapot lid machines required monthly maintenance as shown in table 2 below.”

    And I’ll get a comment on the first sentence like “could this be bc of the annual maintenance?”
    YES!!!!!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF (DEITY OF CHOICE/DARWIN) USE YOUR %]\€~@$& EYEBALLS!!!!!!
    But that’s not a very professional response to that comment. If I ignore the comment, I’ll get a terse response like “can you address?” YES. Its literally already there!!! … My BEC meter is over 9,000 right now and I’m just counting down the seconds till I just explode with that.

    1. Total Rando*

      I might be a bit too passive aggressive, but I’d probably write:

      See below: “Half of this decrease can be attributed to the fact that 2 teapot lid machines required monthly maintenance as shown in table 2 below.”
      and leave it for them to figure out that they should’ve answered their own question.

      Also, this is super annoying! My boss does something similar every time I put a presentation together. She’ll finish reviewing one slide/section and ask a natural follow-up question that I address in the very next slide/section.

      1. Drew*

        That’s a good sign that you’ve organized your document well, actually — you WANT each slide to lead naturally into the next one, and if a slide raises a natural question and the next slide answers it, I think you’re doing that.

        Maybe you can tell your boss, “That’s exactly the question I *wanted* you to ask! *click* Here’s the answer.”

    2. annejumps*

      I’m also a technical writer and I would literally just comment with “X is addressed/mentioned below.”

    3. Lillian McGee*

      I think you just have to grit your teeth and respond as though it were a legitimate concern.

      My sympathies.

    4. Maria*

      “Please let me know if paragraph 3 and table 2 do not adequately address this concern. Do you think rewording is necessary?”

      1. SRB*

        Oh I like this, I’ll have to put it on a sticky note somewhere I can see later.

        I usually just write “this is addressed below” or some variant. But it infuriates me so much that by the time I get to the 5th or 6th instance in a single document, I start *feeling* like my rage is showing through the response, even though I’m still just writing “this is addressed below” and it probably isn’t.

        Im glad it’s not just me though…that makes me a little more calm about it all. I think I just need the weekend to calm down, heh.

        1. Maria*

          I can understand that. Not only are they wasting time, they’re implying that your work isn’t important enough to read thoroughly.

          I always try to give the appearance that I’m assuming that she DID see what she’s asking for, and that her question is a just a poorly-worded method of asking for it to be edited slightly. People get so defensive when it comes to reading and grammar that framing it that way just makes my life easier.

          I also try to keep in mind that my attention to detail is why they hired me, and not everyone has an eye for this sort of thing.

        2. LizB*

          It’s definitely not just you! Some people are terrible at reading comprehension. I’ve been having a similar issue — I regularly write reports that include lots of details about a situation, and then at the very end of the report I include proposed next steps that refer back to some of these details. I keep getting them back from Bob, who edits these kinds of reports for my department, with comments like “I think this issue with spout maintenance should go in the next steps” …when spout maintenance is literally the first thing I talk about in the next steps section. I figure that Bob is just making comments as he goes along, and then not bothering to go back and delete the ones that are made redundant by later sections of the report. It’s kind of infuriating, but I’m trying to be zen about it and remember that this is apparently just Bob’s little quirk. It helps that I don’t have to go back to Bob for final approval, and can just submit the report as soon as I’ve made his suggested edits, so I don’t have to write a bunch of “addressed on page 3” comments back.

      2. catsAreCool*

        Sometimes I copy-paste the answer from the doc and send it to them, but I think Maria’s idea is better.

    5. Mockingjay*

      I’ll write: “See comment below.” “See paragraph below.” “Addressed in paragraph 2.” Etc.

      I never address the comment itself. Some people just want to feel validated. “I reviewed the document – I’m obviously a good teammate/supervisor/lead!” Yes, yes dear, and now let me turn my attention to the technical errors that must be fixed (and that you MISSED).

  96. PassingThrough*

    I was recently offered and accepted a position at a large government contractor, but I don’t know if it’s going to come through and so I’d like some advice on the ethics of restarting my job search.

    When they made the offer, they said it was a “contingent” position and that they would know in 1-2 months whether or not the contract has been awarded. (When I interviewed, no one mentioned the possibility of a contingent position. They described projects that were ongoing, and I assumed I would be assigned to one of them. So the contingency thing was a surprise.) They sent me an official offer letter, and I signed it. They have even done the pre-employment background check. Well, it’s now been over 2 months and I still have no start date.

    When I accepted the offer, I stopped my job search, but now I want to start it back up because I’m not sure this contingent position is going to come through. The position and salary, etc. are really good and just what I wanted, so I really hoped the position would become reality, but at this point I can’t count on that. The offer letter I signed said my employment (which hasn’t started yet) is “at will”, so I can quit at any time. I feel like it’s kind of unethical to keep looking for a job when I have already accepted this one in good faith, but because it’s been more than 2 months since the original offer I feel like I’m justified.

    I’ve never dealt with this “contingent” situation before so I don’t know what is appropriate. Should I let the company know I am restarting my job search, or should I just notify them when I have a new offer? If I do get another offer and accept it, have I burned my bridges with this company?

    2. Mockingjay*

      This is very common in Government contracting. Basically the company is holding your resume for a potential staffing slot. In some cases they will use your resume in the proposal/bid (they have to get your permission first). If the contract is awarded, they will call you and see if you are still interested in coming aboard. If not, they’ll move on to the next resume, since they have to staff up quickly (usually 30 days from award).

      I’ve accepted contingent offers before, but only viewed them as potential jobs and kept searching. I wouldn’t contact them about other offers or that you are still searching. I would ask them when the award is expected.

      Also, if you don’t hear from them again, that means that they didn’t win. [Note: most government contract awards are public notice, so you can search online and find out who did win. Check the winner’s company website: they are probably hiring.]

      1. CAA*

        What Mockingjay said. Do restart your search. An offer that doesn’t have a firm start date isn’t one that should prevent you from continuing to search. You can inquire with the company though and ask them for status and an updated timeline and reiterate your interest in working on one of their existing projects if they have any current openings.

        I would also add that if they said the contract was going to be awarded in 1-2 months, and it’s only been just a little over 2 months, it could still be in the works or it could be in a protest. U.S. Federal Gov’t contracts often don’t get awarded until well after the date in the initial RFP, so if you were hired based on that date, and then the Gov’t extended the submission date and got more responses than expected, so then they took longer to get through orals and evaluations; then it could be an extra 6 weeks before the award is made. Also, if the award was made and then it was suspended due to a protest, that’s another 90 days before work can actually start.

        You might be able to get more information by searching at fpds.gov for either the project name or the company name.

  97. Xarcady*

    Question about a phone interview I’m having next week.

    I worked for this company last winter as a contract employee (as well as in several other positions over the last 2 years, but this is the one that counts). Now I have a chance at a temp-to-perm position. The person who will be interviewing me–I’m 95% certain that he had an office near me last winter. He’s in a different department, but because of some reorganization in the company, he ended up in an office a couple of cubicles away from me.

    We had very little to do with each other, but were on the usual “smile, nod, and say good morning,” basis.

    If I could see his face, I’d know if this was the same person. But it’s a phone interview. Is it a good idea to point out that he already knows me? Or just leave the issue alone? I have no idea if he even knew my name back then.

    And how do you bring it up? “Are you the Sam Smith who has the office next to the break room? Remember me from last winter–I’m the temp who was always knee deep in purple teapots that needed fixing?” Or is there a better way?

    I’m nervous, because a) I could really use a permanent job after two years of temping and b) this is the department in this company that I really want to work in.

    I think I’m letting the pressure get to me.

  98. Viktoria*

    This is mainly a work rant although any advice is appreciated! I sit next to my coworker, Lisa, and we are rather good friends. Mainly just chatting at work but sometimes we go out and do things like go to concerts together. Our work is generally a very laid back pace and we can chat a lot throughout the day. Our job duties overlap in some areas, but her primary job is customer service/inside sales where my primary job is bookkeeping/invoicing/etc. Therefore, my job is primarily task-based (I must finish the invoices, banking, etc. each day, contact late accounts, etc.) where hers is primarily butt-in-seat based (answering the phones, entering PO, order fulfillment as they come in, etc.).

    On Fridays we are usually very slow and so have instituted an alternating summer Fridays policy- Lisa and I take turns leaving at noon on Fridays all summer. She can leave promptly at noon no matter what, assuming she’s not right in the middle of a customer call or something. I, however, have to finish all my tasks for the day no matter how long it takes- usually it’s not a problem to do so by noonish but sometimes I stay a little later. If I don’t, I’m just leaving myself more work on Monday, and it’s simply my own responsibility to manage my workload and finish everything daily if I can.

    The problem is that Lisa will good-naturedly give me a hard time about leaving “on time” on my early days. Two weeks ago I ended up staying until about 2:30 because I was still catching up after some vacation days. She kept ribbing me about “Come on, get out of here, go enjoy your weekend!” Finally I told her somewhat shortly that I needed to finish all my work for the day or I would just have more to do on Monday. But today the same thing is already starting… “Viktoria you’re going to leave on time today right? Summer’s almost over!” It’s driving me crazy. I have just kind of been smiling and nodding… it’s coming from a kind place (she wants me to enjoy my afternoon off) but I just feel like it’s my own business to manage that perk. Also, she’s been chatting with me all morning, despite my attempts to politely deflect (not turning to look at her but continuing typing, responding with “hmm” only, etc.). I guess I need to be more direct- “Sorry Lisa, I am right in the middle of something,” but it would feel a little weird and rude because of our usual chatting dynamic and the fact that the business is so slow on Fridays.

    Has anyone had a similar situation? Any suggestions or commiserations?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ugh, so annoying. What about, “Will you indulge me and just trust that I’ll leave when I’m able to? It’s kind of driving me crazy to be prodded to leave when I can’t.”

      1. Viktoria*

        Thanks! I think I might be able to pull that off in a more jokey/smiley tone that would make me feel better and avoid hurting her feelings.

    2. NarrowDoorways*

      Yeah, probably you’ll have to just say, “Oh I do really want to leave by noon! But I have so much to do, I may be head-down all morning to make it work.”

      My boss is kind of like this. My boss weirdly polices my hours. As in, “Oh, don’t burn the midnight oil! Try to leave by 4!” I’m salary and work between 9-12 hours every day. Some days I get it down to 8, which are always nice. But frankly, if I’m still working, it’s because there’s still things to do and not doing them just leaves me with more to do the next day. I think it stems from a place of guilt. He wants to leave at 4 and feels like he has to stay as long as I do? Maybe it’s a guilt thing for your co-worker because she knows it’s easier for her?

      1. Viktoria*

        The “head-down all morning” language is great! Going to try that next time…

        Yes, I think there is a guilt element for her– she doesn’t want there to be an expectation for her to stay later than noon when it’s her turn to leave early. But I think that expectation genuinely doesn’t exist- our boss understands that my work is completely different in nature. But maybe she feels an internal pressure to stay later if I do it occasionally.

    3. zora.dee*

      My coworkers and I have recently started using “Ok, I’m going deep.” as a shorthand for “I need to work on something that requires a lot of focus, so please don’t interrupt me for quick questions/chatting for a while.” and it works great. Partly because we all kind of chuckle when someone says it, it just kind of sounds funny. But the point gets across without hurting anyone’s feelings.

      Can you try to do that when you start working on something that you want to get done, rather than waiting for her to start chatting, where it feels awkward? like “Ok, Lisa, I need to finish this batch of invoices so I need to focus for about 2 hours. Talk to you at 12! haha!” and then start working. Then if she interrupts at that point all you have to say is “hold on, I’m not done” instead of giving an explanation at that point.

  99. NarrowDoorways*

    Ugh, I’m starting to feel like the office Mean Girl. But I really don’t think I am! Here, can you look at some background? An I trying to self-justify?

    I started working with my boss about a year ago during a huge transition. I’d gotten a sudden, unexpected promotion and though my new boss wasn’t actually in my department, he’d had some experience with the content at a prior workplace. He basically put a huge part of his actual job on hold to help me out very closely.

    We killed ourselves for months trying to straighten everything out and so spent a lot of time together. Most of the time, he acted like we were besties. He constantly wanted to check in with my personal life and “Was I happy with work?” and go out for drinks. (No, I’m not his type, before you ask.) But there were also days where he was rude or loudly angry and honestly not someone I wanted to be around at all. I’m talking, he’d literally stomp around the office and growl “I’m so angry right now!” because someone had seen the cookies he’d left in the kitchen and grabbed one before he could send out a peppy email alerting everyone they were there. Or, we’d had a client issue and the client called me directly to discuss. But when my boss found out I’d talked to the client directly without him, every though he found because I was updating him on the conference call I was scheduling for several days in the future, he flipped out about how I was cutting him out and now he was uninformed so he wouldn’t help me with the issue anymore!

    I dismissed the bad behavior for ages. Partially, I felt it wasn’t my place to say anything–he’s my boss and my new boss, at that. Also, we were under a huge amount of stress. Now, I don’t handle stress like that, but I figured maybe when things evened out, he’s stop with the temper tantrums.

    Well…things have evened out. I’ve been handling things on my own more frequently, the problems last year have all been settled, it’s honestly smooth sailing now. But he’s still throwing the temper tantrums. And I’m liking him as a person less and less. I think part of it is that, hey, his personality may just be a bit volatile. But another part is he’s unhappy I’m starting to handle things on my own. His department really suffered while he’s been helping me, and his boss has been trying to redirect him from my work.

    Anyway, not the point. The point is…I don’t want to gab in his office about my personal life. I don’t want to make a coffee run with him. I don’t want to grab lunch together. And our office culture is very much where these things are the norm. So there are some groups that go out together every day for various things. I’ve tried to job some and turn down most. But I’ve mostly stopped going out only with my boss. (Though if he directly asks just me, I have said yes maybe twice this month.) It’s still a bit obvious that I’ve cooled toward him though. I feel bad, but at the same time don’t feel I should have to hang out with him.

    tl;dr–My boss and I used to hang out and talk all the time. I’m frustrated by his bad attitude and don’t want to spend with him any more unless he directly asks. He’s noticed and is hurt–and even more rude. Should I really let myself be guilted?

    1. Leatherwings*

      You aren’t being the mean girl at all! You were trying to distance yourself from a volatile person who throws temper tantrums! Do.Not let yourself feel guilty about this, his behavior is ridiculous and inappropriate. You’re doing the right thing.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      NO, do not give in! Your boss is an angry, irrational person and you do not need to put up with it. Just decline his invitations with a polite “no thanks, I have other plans… now about XXX teapot problem!”

      Changing the subject works wonders when I get put in these awkward situations.

    3. neverjaunty*

      No, you should not. Your boss apparently is not mature enough to realize that behavior has consequences. Specifically, that if he’s randomly unpleasant and throws tantrums, that other people will want to spend less time around him.

      Also, FFS – throwing a fit because somebody took a cookie before he got an email announcement out? What’s his malfunction?

  100. the cake is a pie*

    Can I just say–conducting interviews is surprisingly hard! We’re currently bringing people in for an open position at my company and this is my first time on the other side of the table. I know it sounds a bit “well, duh,” but there’s so much more than asking questions and listening politely.

    I hope that we’re good interviewers but I can see why so many people run into weird situations in their interviews. Your interviewer may be just as unsure about the whole process as you are.

  101. AnalystAnonymous*

    BRR’s question regarding promotion and salary reminded me that I have a question about that. I am a tax analyst in a corporate tax dept of a large global F500 company. I am being considered for a grade level promotion. What percent salary increase should I expect with that?

  102. Anon Accountant*

    So I received 2 job rejections this week. The 1 I’m relieved over because they seemed arrogant and obnoxious. They keep me waiting in the interview room 20 minutes, had me complete a handwritten paper application and just didn’t seem like a “welcoming” place to work if that makes sense.

    But the other job seemed interesting. This search feels never ending!

    1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Rejections are the worst. I got one last week and the woman went so overboard in telling me how awesome I was that it came off as insulting and condescending. I’d much rather have a quick “Thanks so much for coming in, but we’ve gone with another candidate. We appreciate your taking the time to speak with us and wish you the best of luck going forward,” more than what I got, which was “You were just such an amazing candidate, it was so great to interview you! We enjoyed it so much! Unfortunately you weren’t the successful candidate, but you were just so excellent I’m sure you’ll have no trouble finding something! Thanks soooooo much for interviewing with us! We really did have a great time and it was so nice to meet you and see such a wonderful candidate!” Lay off. I get it.

  103. MrsH*

    Hi all,

    Within my organisation we are currently working on improving our PowerPoint skills to achieve greater consistency throuhgout reports. We want to improve our toolbox and implement practical guidelines on how to balance our copy and graphic elements in a way where the message does not get lost. I have been dealt the task to find classes to help us with this, which I am very happy to do. We definitely need to improve. We use PowerPoint to a great extent within my organisation and it is usually the product we deliver to our clients (I work with qualitative market research).

    I have been looking like crazy for classes that would be able to help us improve. Powerpoint classes in themself teach the software, and I am sure there are a few tips and tricks we can learn from taking a more advanced PowerPoint class. The biggest challenge I have found is that there seems to be a consensus that a PowerPoint is never supposed to be a document. Which is just not true! Our reports are meant to be read, they are explanatory, nuanced and filled with emotion. I want them to look good though, be visually engaging and be more easily digested by our clients. When I reach out to potential classes, I feel like they don’t get this. They seem to firmly belive that we are doing it wrong. If they don’t get where we are coming from, then I am considered with it they can help us at all.

    Has anyone here attended any PowerPoint class that relates to what I am on the hunt for and can recommend where to turn?
    Is there any other way I can communicate our needs more clearly? Questiosn that can help me determine how we can benefit from courses we consider?
    Or are we approaching the whole PowerPoint improvement thing from the wrong direction entirely? Should we start somewhere else?

    If you have any ideas on how to better appraoch this, I would greatly appreicate it.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Maybe instead of looking at powerpoint specific classes, you can look into design classes? If you can’t find a class to teach your team what they need to do, the next best thing might be to find classes that aren’t directly applicable but give them tools to build into what they already do.

    2. Dawn*

      So are you using PowerPoint to make reports to then give to your clients based on the research they needed to be done? If so yeah, it sounds like you need something like Publisher to create the depth and breadth that you need to have (plus address the graphics issues/ desire for things to look and flow better).

      PowerPoint is meant to accompany presentations- that’s it. Check out what you can do with Publisher instead- it’s easy to use and is absolutely meant to be used for making reports, etc.

    3. Pearl*

      Is this being projected on a wall or passed around a table? If the latter, I agree that it sounds like this might be a project that’s more suited to Publisher. If the former, you might want to consider a more “bare” Powerpoint accompanied by explanatory material that’s printed for people to hold.

      If you can find a design class that is geared for magazines or newspapers this might fit the kind of product you’re producing. I do my workplace’s newsletter and have gotten comments that the things I do (from my magazine classes) have made our communications more readable for the community.

    4. Dynamic Beige*

      Speaking as a PowerPoint professional with almost 20 years in the biz of high-end corporate graphics…

      I would say yes, and no. PowerPoint should not be used to create documents, but it is anyway. As a program, it’s not designed for print (not truly) and therefore lacks a lot of features a proper layout program has, like InDesign (does anyone use Quark anymore?)

      But, it is easier to use as a layout program than Word and few corporate offices are about to spend shedloads of money on Adobe when they already have PPT. Also, companies like yours may be presenting their report to the client and giving them a copy of it that they can make notes on during the meeting, or file away back at their office.

      Sometimes, a client needs handouts of the slides. Whether that’s because it’s a training programme, or just for proofing purposes (you may be surprised how many people want to make notes on paper, rather than change the slide or add comments to a PDF). If that is the case, the template should be designed to accommodate that.

      The really big difference between slides and print is that print is meant to be static, consumed at leisure however the user chooses. Slides are a passive medium so they have to have less content if they are going to be projected as anyone who has seen a too-busy slide knows and cannot read. The opposite is true for documents. You can put way more information on a page than you can (or should) on a slide.

      So I don’t really believe that you can have One Presentation to Show them All in All Media. Technically, you should have a presentation that requires verbal explanation and a document that has all the script in it with appropriate accompanying graphics.

      There is one firm out there who has been pushing using PowerPoint (or maybe Keynote) to make documents and that is Duarte Design. Here is a link to what they refer to as Slide Docs. I know they give PowerPoint training, but I don’t know if they specifically do Slide Docs training.

      http://www.duarte.com/slidedocs/

      Otherwise, your best bet is probably to find examples of things you like and try to figure out why they work. Maybe there is someone in your office who is “better” at making slides than the others and you can break apart their work to figure out what sets it apart. Maybe they have other training?

      There are also books like these:
      http://www.peachpit.com/store/non-designers-design-book-9780133966152
      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321811984?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0321811984&linkCode=xm2&tag=presentatio00-20
      https://www.amazon.com/slide-ology-Science-Creating-Presentations/dp/0596522347/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1XWD31TP8BZXRSWNPGNN

      https://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ (also teaches a course in data presentation)

    5. it happens*

      I understand the comments that PowerPoint is not the right tool, and I also understand that it is the tool that a lot of consulting firms use exactly the way you describe. It sounds like your company needs a style book and some graphic design for consistent templates. I would recommend trying to find a branding firm that has done work like this and also to ‘train the trainers’ so the people doing the work in your firm use it consistently and can continue to train users in ‘how we do it here.’ (and then do a little refresh on the graphics every so often…)
      It’ll be fun! (really, it will)

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Hmm… personally, I would like to see some samples of these presentations/reports first. Because depending on what they have and what they want to achieve, to be honest a branding or graphic design firm may not be the best choice. I have found that — generally speaking — in the graphic design world, PowerPoint is not looked upon with favour. Consequently, their designers either will not know how to use the program or will have only a basic knowledge. I get presentation templates (and I use that term loosely) from graphic designers all the time and they are on the whole a mess. These firms may be *awesome* at creating branding books, but it is a rare thing to find one that gives more than a brief overview of PowerPoint.

        Also, from a design firm standpoint, where is the upside? Teaching MrsH’s company to do something isn’t going to add to the bottom line for them, especially when they would rather do those reports in InDesign, partially because of better results and partially for repeat business.

        Actually, this kind of training is something I could do (Lord knows I do enough of it unofficially) but I doubt MrsH’s company is local to me or would pay to bring me wherever they are!

      2. Kerr*

        Agreed on setting up a style book and design guidelines. This sounds much more like a design problem than a software problem. Maybe classes or resources on designing for print or publications would be helpful: layout, graphics, typography, and so on. I doubt that PowerPoint-specific classes will help much, since as you say they’re mostly software-based.

  104. Tomato Frog*

    I recently applied for a job through an HR system that sent me a notice when my application had made it through the initial screening and been passed on to the hiring department. I haven’t gotten such messages in the past, and I found I really appreciated it! Generally, I try to approach applications with the expectation that I won’t get an interview, but nonetheless it’s demoralizing not to get *any* indication as to how your application is being received. It’s nice to be told, in essence, “This application was not a total misfire!” even if they’re not telling me much more than that.

    I do wonder if applicants ever give them cause to regret sending such a notice, though. Managing applicant expectations seems to be something of an art.

  106. nylon*

    What’s everyone’s take on company phones? Do you use it for business and personal or carry two phones? My former boss did the former and my current the latter.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I think it really depends on your privacy boundaries. If you don’t mind the company having access to any personal data on the phone, sticking to just one is certainly convenient. I’m on the side of more privacy, myself.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      When I had one, I rarely used it for actual work. Because I didn’t want the company to have access to my private information, it mostly just sat around. However, I did use the free unlimited data for mapping directions to various places!

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      I am against this whole BYOD (bring your own device) trend. I get that people have their brand of phone that they like and whatever but…

      A company phone can be turned off at 5pm, or left at the office, you are unlikely to turn off your own phone. Therefore, you are “always available.”

      Companies install software on your phone that will wipe it in the event your phone is lost/stolen or you are fired. I don’t know if that levels the entire phone back to factory or just the company stuff, it may depend on the company. Would you really want your employer to be able to nuke your phone so you lose all your personal photos?

      Same software install may include things that you are unaware of such as geofencing software that will track your time on the job/property through the phone’s GPS. So if you’re late, the phone could alert someone that you are in the parking lot or subway at 8:15 and not at your desk/in the building. Or just keep tabs on you anyway. Highly unlikely anyone would be sifting through that data every day, but that one day you decide to play hooky because you need a mental health day?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        A company phone can be turned off at 5pm, or left at the office, you are unlikely to turn off your own phone. Therefore, you are “always available.”

        This, especially if you’re cell only and don’t have a landline. Which a lot of people are these days.

    4. neverjaunty*

      Two phones. If there were a litigation hold or subpoena for all work-related stuff, you sure wouldn’t want someone going through your personal phone.

    6. LCL*

      Two phones. Government job. It’s not an option for us to use our own and get reimbursed, or use only the company’s and pay them back.
      There isn’t any phone that exists with billing that is smart enough to do this. A cynical person would think that the phone companies aren’t developing this option because they wouldn’t make any extra money.

    7. Library Director*

      I only have the business phone, but then I’m on call 24-7. I go through periodically and transfer all the personal stuff off the phone. The business issued iPad is primarily used for personal stuff and I have to transfer that stuff too. But, when I’m on vacation I use that to check my mail. Things are better now and I only have to do it once a day. (Sorry flashback to a micromanaging Board Chair.) I make sure that the Scrabble app isn’t logged into my personal Facebook account. Actually all the apps are connected to the business accounts so I don’t get sloppy.

    8. LizB*

      I have a Google Voice number as my work phone number, and I use the Voice app on my personal phone. When I’m on vacation, I sign out of the app so no calls or texts will come through to my phone. I feel like it’s a good compromise — I can make my phone all-personal when I need it to be, and I’m not worried about leaving one of my phones somewhere while I’m out and about for work. My organization gives us the option of buying a second phone and getting a monthly stipend to pay for it, but I didn’t want to deal with two devices.

  107. Guilty Notice-Giver*

    Hi – I missed that my letter got published on Wednesday (I’m OP #4 here): https://www.askamanager.org/2016/08/interacting-with-coworkers-kids-coworker-is-inappropriate-in-front-of-guests-and-more.html

    I’m giving my notice on Monday and giving them 2-3 weeks to get out of here. Not excited about it, but excited for the new opportunity. When I said flexible start date, I meant very flexible – they basically told me the job is there when I’m ready for it, which adds to the guilt about leaving my team in the lurch. Oh well

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Good job! It’s a hard thing to do, but it’s a reasonable thing. Good luck transitioning!

  108. Shishimai*

    Ugh. I have an exaggerated startle reflex for a lot of reasons – and a manager-type who I don’t know well just grabbed my shoulder. I jumped super high and threw up a hand and apologized, and said “wow you really startled me.” Rest of the conversation went fine but I’m now worrying that I’ve offended him.

    Fellow jumpy people, how do you handle offices where people touch you all the [expletive deleted] time? Do you have a monitor mirror? Do you just keep your feelers out all the time?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Monitor mirror, monitor mirror, monitor mirror. I wouldn’t worry about offending him, though – even people who aren’t super jumpy (who I am jealous of) get startled sometimes.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I need a monitor mirror because my coworkers LOVE sneaking up on me (sometimes on purpose, sometimes not). Touching is a HUGE no-no for me, so I’d have reacted the same way you did in that situation. Why can’t adults keep their hands to themselves?? At work, no less??

      1. Jaguar*

        “No touching” is a new cultural phenomenon, right? I’ve had people tap me on the shoulder, gently place their hand on my back, pat my arm to get my attention, etc. and it doesn’t bother me at all, but I’ve notice it happens with far, far less regularity than it used to in decades past. You say, “At work, no less?”, but I would think being coworkers would make it even more acceptable.

        I can’t help but feel saddened that the only acceptable form of platonic physical contact left is a handshake. This doesn’t strike me as a positive trend.

        1. neverjaunty*

          “Keep your hands to yourself” is not a new cultural phenomenon; it’s something small children are taught and should have learned by adulthood. Also, “respect other people’s privacy”. If Jane is fine with you giving her a platonic hug, then that’s OK, but Lemon Zinger isn’t therefore required to tolerate hugs if she doesn’t want them.

          Also, “grabbing” is hardly a type of platonic physical contact whose absence in the workplace we should mourn.

        2. catsAreCool*

          I don’t usually like being touched, especially when I’m not expecting it, so I’m grateful that some people are OK with that.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      Um, you shouldn’t worry about your response to a coworker touching you being offensive. I’d move forward with every time a coworker did this, saying, “I know you don’t mean anything by it, but I don’t like being touched. Please just knock on the cubicle/say hello in the future. Thanks!”

    4. neverjaunty*

      Grabbed your shoulder?! Unless he was pulling you out of the way out of a falling object, he was out of line, and you are not “jumpy” for reacting.

  109. Sad (Jerk) employee*

    I would like some advice on managing my emotions and anger in a workplace.

    I am starting a new job soon, which hopefully will be a much better fit than the current one. My biggest worry is that I have a history of ‘exploding’ and voicing my frustrations openly. I am unable to control my emotions and anger, which had led to several incidents of me YELLING, SCOLDING and ARGUING with my colleagues. My previous and current bosses are aware of this problem but for some reasons I have never been fired or given any official warning (don’t ask me why… I have been wondering the same thing). I think this might be caused by my perfectionist and defensive nature. I take great pride in delivering the best possible work. I find shoddy work unacceptable and has always been hard on myself and my vendors. I push people to deliver work to the highest standard. I push myself to deliver the best work. When things do not go perfectly, I got upset and stressed out and start voicing my frustrations openly. I can not control my anger.

    As you can imagine, this has ruined my reputation considerably and make people uncomfortable with working with me. I am well-known as that volatile person who delivers good work. I realize I am a huge jerk and I really want to change, because I really hate who I am now. I hate my terrible personality and I felt extremely terrible at home after a day at work losing my temper. There are many instances where I lost sleep because I feel very upset about work. I really want to be a much calmer and cool-headed person, but I have difficulty controlling my anger. I feel locked inside my own body and helplessly watching myself raising my voice and got mentally destroyed by my own emotions. I have just yelled at my own (current) boss today and felt very terrible.

    I would like to turn a new leaf in this new job and be a better person. I really want to change. However, I am terrified of losing my temper again in my new workplace. My industry is very small, so I am sure words of my volatile personality will one day reach my new boss.

    1) How do I control my anger? Are there any good tips or resources I can follow?
    2) Is there any need to visit a psychiatrist to seek help on my anger issue? The problem is that I am starting a new job, so I cannot take any day off to meet psychiatrist (they do not work after hours or weekends). Note that I am not in the USA.
    3) How do I manage and deal with a terrible reputation in a workplace? Even if I change my attitude, I am sure words of my past ‘explosions’ will reach my new workplace very soon. Also, many of my ex-colleagues work in my new company. They will certainly remember my anger issues and yelling habit. (NOTE: I have never yelled at those colleagues. My relationship with them is neutral, but they have witnessed me yelling).
    4) I need to apologize at my current boss for yelling at him. How do I word it?

    1. Shishimai*

      Hey there. I’ve had a similar issue – I’ve had reputation, performance, and professional consequences from it, too. I saw a therapist – it helped – and also did a lot of work by myself.

      1. There’s a ton of free online resources. There is not a quick fix – you mention perfectionism and defensiveness. Those are things I deal with too. You can change both of them. I recommend looking up some Emotional First Aid resources as well as specific how-tos. When you have an hour or so, throw “how to reduce defensiveness” or “how to reduce perfectionism” into your favorite search engine and read. Take the tips that sound the least silly and see if you can apply them. It is hard work and slow going. It’s also very well worth it.

      2. Maybe. If you can work out a deal where you use your lunch hour to visit someone once a week, or where you can take an unspecified appointment when you need to, you can swing it without taking entire days off. I’d recommend at least looking into this.

      3. You act better, over the long term, and if anyone says something directly to you, your script can be something like “Yeah, I’m pretty embarrassed about that, but I’m working on it.” Try for neutral and friendly rather than defensive. “I’m WORKING on it, OKAY” will not help your case.

      4. The above script works pretty well here, too. “I’m pretty embarrassed about how I just acted. I know being defensive is not okay, but I’m working on it.” A good result is “apology accepted.”

      Good luck! If you want to talk privately, drop me a comment and we can figure something out.

    2. misspiggy*

      Sorry you’re having this trouble. Some of the answers to your questions will depend on the culture where you are. But:
      1. Try to take a mindfulness-type approach (lots of Googleable resources), so that you stop yourself and take a break before you get fully angry. Also, plenty of exercise and sleep so you don’t feel so pent-up. Do things that will give you a good laugh regularly. Think about how you manage yourself in and outside of work – can you manage your inner voice so that you’re kinder to yourself and others? Try to look after yourself so that you have more happiness in your life and less fear or anxiety.
      4) Next time you see your boss, take him aside and say you want him to know how sorry you are for yelling at him, and that it was unacceptable. Say you’ve realised you need to manage your emotions at work much better, and you have already started to work on it since that incident. Apologise again and leave it there – don’t ask anything of him or try to justify why you yelled.

    3. Friday*

      I would suggest you get some outside, ongoing assistance with this. Therapy, anger management, whatever. it’s not easy to change these dynamics. If they only present in the workplace, an experienced coach might help you, but if they are present in non-work situations it’s a therapy thing. Good luck, it’s excellent that you recognize this as unacceptable and destructive.

      Current boss, it’s hard to help script this without knowing the exact situation and surrounding culture, but stick with humility. “I need to apologize for x,y,z. I understand this is not acceptable and I’m working on how to keep it from happening in the future. I respect you for not going off on me in return and I just want you to know that I am aware that this is unhealthy. If you can support me with honest feedback about other aspects of my work and understand how hard I am working on this, I woudl appreciate it.”

    4. Leatherwings*

      It’s awesome that you’re so self-aware about this issue – it is serious, it can damage your reputation and you need to fix it. You know all of that already which is a HUGE step up from where most people are at.

      1&2) I would suggest seeing a therapist (maybe a psychiatrist is best, but a regular therapist who specializes in anger management might be just fine. They can help you develop tools and tricks to manage your emotions when things get heated.
      3) Don’t try to hide from it – acknowledge it when it comes up and let people know you’re working on it. That’s going to give you better credibility than anything else.
      4) It needs to be sincere, so don’t use this exact language but something like “Hey Boss, I wanted to sincerely apologize for the other day. It was totally inappropriate and I’m taking steps to work on my anger management so it doesn’t happen again.” No “Buts” allowed, just the apology without defending the behavior.

      Good luck!

    5. LisaLee*

      I think you might need to see a therapist for this (psychiatrists provide medication, therapists don’t). Yes, you can probably change things on your own, but it will be a lot harder without a professional outsider to help you out. If you really can’t see someone in-person, there are online therapy services now where you can talk to someone outside of business hours. I would call your EAP, ask your doctor for a recommendation, or look online. You might also be able to arrange to come in less regularly with an in-person therapist, or attend group therapy after working hours.

      The website Captain Awkward has a good list of cheap and low-cost therapy services for different countries if that’s a concern too.

      As for immediate things you can do, do you feel the anger coming on? If you’re aware of it, practice recognizing the feeling, separating yourself from it, and letting it pass through you without acting on it. Practice spending a couple seconds consciously thinking through your words before you say them (all the time, not just when you’re angry, so it becomes a habit). Try taking a few deep breaths or going to a quieter space when you can.

    6. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Aww, I think it’s so awesome that you know you have this issue and want to address it. Some people never get to that point.

      So I’m going embrace my soft INFP nature here and tell you the following:

      2) yes, you should talk to a therapist. There are online options and your employer may have some kind of employee assistance program that might help. Mindfulness practice might help you with the holding onto frustrations so tightly. When I start getting really wound up about workplace frustrations I have to remember to do some mindfulness exercises and they help me move on.

      I also recommend you start developing your empathy for other people. I’ve worked with people like you. I don’t think any of them are bad, I just think they forget that people are as important as the output. The output is the short term target, but people are what’s going to keep you going in the long term. Try to think about where your coworkers are coming from – why are they making mistakes? what can you do to correct them and coach them? Because yelling will always be counterproductive and make them feel like crap. Someone yelled at me on Monday and I spent TWO DAYS feeling terrible about it.

      3. You can change your reputation. I have someone working for me now who had a reputation as a real butthole, but I’ve actually yet to experience it at all. And I’ve been waiting for 8 months – no clue what that’s all about. I also think that if you can transition your yelling reputation into just one for being very expressive, that would be good. Like, I had a boss who yelled. And he would yell at you and tell you that you were all effed up on something. But he’d also randomly praise you (loudly) and it seemed really sincere. Like one day “Katie – this is a mess! WTF! fix it!” and then a few days later – “HEY! you’re doing great! Seriously, Katie – just great!” with a big smile. It helped. Then you’re not the angry yellly person, you’re just the very loud and expressive person, which isn’t perfect, but it’s ok.

    7. Jaguar*

      I doubt my temper ever rose to the level you experience, but I used to be quick to anger and lash out, made a conscious effort to not do it, and today people who know me are often shocked whenever I do show anything approaching anger. I also feel much better not getting angry!

      I can’t address your second question as I’ve never had therapy. I don’t know how helpful they can be (presumably, they’re the best option available) or how they can assist you in this area.

      Typically, the most important part is the profound desire to want to change, but it sounds like you’re already there, so that’s good. Nurse that desire.

      The first thing I would suggest is understand that there is no good reason and no valid excuse for the way you act. You say you “think this might be caused by my perfectionist and defensive nature.” But understand that there are perfectionists or people who are defensive or both that don’t explode in anger. It’s not an excuse.

      The second thing I would suggest is understanding that if you’re angry with someone, regardless of how urgent the problem is, venting your anger will not get you closer to a solution to the problem. In most cases, it will move you further from it. So you should learn to recognize when your anger is building up and then focus on not letting it out. Excuse yourself if you have to. Go take a walk. Do whatever you have to do to put yourself in an environment where you aren’t taking your anger out on others and then concentrate on getting back to a healthy state of mind. I would also be weary of finding a “safe” outlet for your anger (screaming in a pillow, working out, etc.). Again, I’m not a psychiatrist and have never been to one, but my success has been about eliminating the impulse, not shifting it somewhere else. You need to learn how to get ahead of your anger and manage it. You’ll get better at this (and, in my case at least, I got better really quick).

      Third, every time you wind up venting your anger to anyone, apologise to them once you’ve calmed down and really explain that you understand what you did wrong and why it was unfair to them that you did it. This involves expresses vulnerability to other people, so it won’t be easy, but if you understand it as something you’re responsible for doing, you’ll be moving more quickly towards taking control of the issue. For your boss, I don’t think there’s a simple script to use. Just make it genuine in your own words and play it by ear.

      As for your reputation, when people see you handling problems without getting angry, it will go away. You’ve clearcut a forest and replanting it won’t make it come back tomorrow, but it will come back in time.

      1. Aussie Teacher*

        I really agree with your third point – apologising afterwards will make people look on you much more kindly. I would be much happier if someone who yelled at me later came to apologise and acknowledge it wasn’t ok. Even if it happens more than once – humility goes a long way.

    9. Anon Accountant*

      First step is you realize this is a problem and are willing to work on it. Are there any counsellors at all that are available evenings? Or go during a lunch break?

    10. Anon Accountant*

      (Got this gem on AAM). Take a 5 minute walk and grab a cup of coffee when you feel like you are about to lose your temper. Do this a few times and you will retrain yourself to take a break from the issue and return clear headed.

    11. Dynamic Beige*

      I don’t know if you’re still reading but… I got The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People as an audiobook from the library and listening to it tonight, it made me think of you/this issue you’ve posted. I think you might find some food for thought in it, should you choose to read (or listen) to it.

      Going to a therapist may help you, but considering the newness of your job, you may be able to do the ground work for that yourself. Whether you journal about it (such as writing down childhood experiences of anger — yours or other peoples, or the opposite, feeling helpless), thinking deeply about what you “get” out of being angry/exploding or other causes of this anger (childhood experiences, issues with interpersonal relationships like dealing with parents). The thing is, you know you do it, you don’t like that you do it, you regret doing it later but I don’t think you really know *why* you do it. It’s not just that someone’s work isn’t up to snuff, there’s something else going on there. If you can be honest and unflinching with yourself about getting down to the reasons why, then you will have ways to explain it later. For example, if you run into a former coworker whom you have exploded on in the past, “Hi Jane, I’m glad to see you. Listen, I just want to apologise for the way I treated you when we were working at XCompany. It was not acceptable to yell at you like I did and I have been working very hard to learn to deal with the stress/anxiety/past issues/fear that causes me to react inappropriately. I am very sorry for any bad feelings I caused you and I hope you can one day forgive me.” The key is though that you will have to be at a point where you have dealt with your problem and you no longer allow your emotions to control your behaviour, so that the people you have wronged in the past can see that you have truly changed.

      Also, it’s an old thing but have you ever considered just counting to 10? Or getting up and excusing yourself, going to the bathroom or outside and counting to 1o? It is your choice how you react to situations, this is something the 7 Habits book was covering in the bit I listened to tonight. Between emotion and reaction there is a space where you get to choose. If you know later that what you did was wrong, then you can choose to stop yourself before you open your mouth and say things you will regret. You can choose to leave the situation, calm down and reflect on the best way to express your disappointment. Right now, you choose to yell. You just don’t accept responsibility for that as your choice. If you can stop blaming your anger on others, then you can stop being a victim to it.

    12. Kittens*

      Fellow short-fused perfectionist here. I work in a high-stress environment where there’s a lot of yelling. Within the past 2 years I was able to completely reverse my tendency toward anger/hostility/lashing out at work with some major help. Two things: (1) I had to shift that way I understand my own anger. You say in your post that you you have no control over your anger. But you do! Saying an element of your own behavior is out of your hands is both inaccurate and a way of obfuscating your responsibility to treat your coworkers appropriately (believe me, I get it, for so long I had the attitude of “that’s just the way I am” and “I can’t control the person that I am” – both not true). (2) I had to come to see treating employees appropriately is an essential part of the job itself – you may put in good work, but treating other employees sympathetically/not yelling them is actually an essential part of being a good employee. So think of it along the lines of “If I don’t treat my employees well then I’m bad at my job” — makes it a lot easier as a perfectionist to try to maintain good relationships with coworkers (because I assume you, like me, are always trying to be ‘perfect’ at your job.) Good luck!

    13. Not So NewReader*

      My number one tip on anger is that I think people get angry when they lack the skill set to deal with an issue. Grow the skill sets to deal with issues, by going one issue at a time. If you do not have a plan for how to handle situation x when it occurs then develop a plan of what you will do INSTEAD of blowing up. Then actually do it.

      Maybe you can find someone who would work online with you or over the phone. I don’t know about what is available outside the US.

      While there may be a few instances where you can never repair the damage with certain people, I believe that most people would be overjoyed to see you have turned over a new leaf.

      If you want to give your boss a sincere apology then share an overview of what your action plan is to get your temper under control.

      I grew up in a family whose default reaction was an outburst of temper. I had to:

      1)Move away from such people and find people who would be good role models for me. If we do not see people role modeling the right thing we will have a harder time learning it.

      2)Grow some people skills. This meant learning about people and how to talk with people in a conversational tone, no matter what the situation is.

      3) Get a sense of humor and use it.

      4) Later on I learned that changing my diet helped even more.

      I would add a couple of observations I have made with other people:

      Look at the false things you tell yourself. One friend said, “I don’t have to be nice to people if I don’t feel up to it.” Another friend said, “The situation gets better when I scream cuss words.”
      One friend is in total denial about how his temper upsets others. What types of things rattle you? Let’s say you answer, “Well a nasty car accident would rock my world.” This is how other people feel, like they have been hit by a bus, this is how yelling feels to them.
      These are the type of falsehoods people tell themselves.

      Many people just conclude the screamer was screamed at through out his/her childhood and that is why they still scream. So people can feel sad about that, but powerless to fix it.

      Last thing to think about. What would happen to you and your life if you found out you were not perfect, but rather, you are human like the rest of us?

      It is good that you are looking in to this. When you come out the other side, please remember that it will be your turn to help others.

    14. Observer*

      General answer – therapy. You need someone who can help you figure out how to manage your feelings, develop tools to manage situations, and possibly figure why you get so intensely upset at things that don’t necessarily upset others so much.

      Whether you need a psychiatrist who can prescribe medication for you is another question, and I doubt that anyone here can answer it. But it’s definitely something to explore.

      Is there any way you can talk to your boss about some schedule flexibility, specifically around this issue?

  110. Maria*

    Does the “take college awards/recognitions off your resume” rule assume you graduated at 22? What about people who didn’t get their degrees until later in life? What about people who start grad school in their 30s-50s?

    1. Jubilance*

      I wouldn’t think about it in terms of age, think in terms of “what have I accomplished since then?”. You’d think after you’ve been out of school for a few years, you’ve had work accomplishments that should go on the resume, instead of school accomplishments. Does that make sense? Using your example, if you start graduate school in your 50s and you win a big award, it makes sense to put it on your resume then. Once you’ve left graduate school and you’re a year or 2 past graduate school, take it off.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d consider how it’s relevant to the position you’re applying to. Some types of jobs may care. Others won’t.

  111. HR Expat*

    My company is looking to lay off a significant portion of the population, which will be announced very soon. And a week after that announcement, we are announcing some other negative news. I feel really badly for everyone who’s going to be impacted, and I know that I won’t be able to sleep at night when it gets closer to the date to have the conversations with impacted employees.

    Selfishly, I’m worried for my own job. We’ve been told that HR will also be impacted. I had an amazing mid-year performance review, but I’ve been really expensive this year based on my expat relocation. I’m concerned that they’ll take this into account when they make their decisions.

    1. misspiggy*

      I wouldn’t think your relocation cost would be an issue – it’s only the costs going forward that they might be considering. Hopefully they will want to keep you on to reap the returns on their relocation investment!

  112. L*

    advice on how to gently push back on a peer instead of becoming bogged down by their work?

    it’s hard as we have a very hands off manager, but i’m getting tired and depressed of having to always feel like i have to bail them out. i am trying to teach them how to fish.. but any advice on this?

    3. Canton*

      Are you me? I’m facing the same situation with the added benefit that my boss worked w/ this person for several years 15 years ago and spent the last couple years trying to bring this person onboard. Turns out, this person has a general lack of knowledge about many things and relies on me (who is not in this person’s department and has not experience) to tell this person what to do. I’m also pretty confident that my boss doesn’t want the knowledge of this person’s incompetence to spread because my boss has made other bad hiring issues in the past. (With me being the great exception of course. :)

      At this point, “I just say this is your [judgment] call.” “It’s up to you.” “I don’t know.” “You need to figure this out yourself.” et cetera. I just bounce the ball back into their court and stay out of it.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t make it easy for them to ask you a question.

      “Bob, we talked about that last week. What did we conclude?”
      “If you look in the manual for xyz you will find your answer.”
      “That sounds like something you’d find out by googling.”
      “Take a look at the report and replicate it with your new info.”

      You may need to point blank say, “Bob, you know I try to help. But I really cannot put in a lot more time. My own work is piling up. Going forward, with each question you ask I am going to ask you what you have tried so far. I am not trying to be a jerk, I really have to get back to my own stuff and you can work on getting a stronger handle on things.”

  113. BigBuddha*

    Hello everyone,

    I had recently applied for a position at a company at the end of July. A hiring manager from the company just emailed me regarding a different position and requested a phone interview with me. Unfortunately, he didn’t call me when the scheduled time came and I politely emailed him and remained flexible with a reschedule. He emailed me back an hour later and asked me for a specific time that I would be available for the next day. After I provided my availability, no response. I’m currently in the middle of my “available time” and I’m not sure what my next step should be.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I honestly think I’d let it go. This guy doesn’t really sound like someone you’d want to work for, and really, he’s the one who should be moving this forward at this point.

  114. Ball of Nerves*

    Any ideas on how to become less anxious about big submissions/deliverables? I get so jittery and nervous after I press send no matter how many times I’ve checked it. I struggle with being detail oriented (not a strong suit) so I’m very insecure even when I check my work for an hour before submitting.

    Once it’s gone I’m STILL a ball of nerves. Any tips on how to shake the lingering anxiety??

    1. Leatherwings*

      Take a walk! Whenever I submit reports I do the same thing. Getting out of the office is the best thing for me. I can’t resolve the issue completely, but getting away from the impulse to check it again or get all jumpy is helpful.

      1. Ball of Nerves*

        i love the idea but I always feel weird being away from my desk for even just 15 ish minutes. I once tried the walk on a day I was feeling upset about something (to try and clear my head) and everyone was like where did you go???? Where were you?? I swear some offices are (as bizarre as it sounds) not take a walk friendly. People here all even eat at their desks.

    2. Preux*

      Maybe have another task lined up that you can start working on immediately after hitting submit? Anxiety can translate into a lot of energy, so maybe a good outlet for that energy would be getting something done that will require your attention.

    3. Sidenote*

      Checklists! Especially if you struggle with the details, a thorough checklist can be your best friend, helping to ensure you haven’t missed something essential. That surety should also help quiet your anxiety about it.

  115. Anon this time*

    Does anyone know of any must-read pieces or resources, about being replaced during a medical leave?

    I work for a hospital in the United States (the kind of place you would think would be more humane to someone recovering from a major illness or surgery). An awesome coworker of mine, who is NOT in a patient-facing role, had to take medical leave. Her doctor does not want her to return to work until August 31st.

    The hospital, which is looking to make budget cuts, has been collecting resumes and holding interviews for her job. Her boss blindsided her with the news that her job will not be saved for her (I suspect that one of my coworkers, from a different department, will be moved into the job). Meanwhile, she’s still recovering and in a lot of pain, and still trying to process everything she can. Any suggestions?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      If your awesome co-worker is on FMLA, the main resource she’ll be wanting is an attorney. Technically you can fire people while they’re on FMLA, but it can’t be because of the leave itself.

  116. Dave*

    Oh, a question. I was speaking with a career advisor recently about applying to companies when there are no advertised positions.

    In the past, I’d just send in a resume and a cover letter to the general careers address (if one exists) or to a specific manager in the organization. She advised instead to contact the would-be manager and ask to meet and then to talk to them about the organization and how I could provide value. She said if they’re interested they’ll ask for a resume, but if I just send a resume and cover letter, it effectively ends the conversation.

    Just wondering how other people feel about this. I have had some responses to sending a resume cold (a couple of interviews and a couple of “we like your resume but we have no positions for you right now”).

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Career advisors love to advise this tactic. People who actually hire hate it. (Ask your career advisor how much hiring she’s done. The answer is highly likely to be none/little.)

    2. Mike C.*

      That feels like a really high pressure sales pitch where a bunch of the work and time is put on the hiring manager themselves.

    3. Pwyll*

      Yeah, don’t do this.

      That said, to turn their advice into something actually useful, find one or two companies doing what you’re interested in and ask for an informational interview with one of their professionals. (Try to find someone you already have a connection to, say someone who went to your alma mater, or perhaps ask some professors if they know anyone in the field). The goal is NOT to get them to hire you, but to learn more about what they’re looking for in entry-level candidates and to learn about their industry. Make sure you have prepared some real questions for them. Usually in these types of meetings, the professional will offer to introduce you to someone else in the industry. If not, ask at the end if they can think of anyone it would be helpful to meet. Meet with them too. Send a short thank you note. Rinse and repeat, while continuing to apply to jobs, and you may find yourself in the right place at the right time. And either way, you’re learning about your chosen field and “networking.”

    4. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      All aboard the NOPE train!

      Don’t waste people’s time with a meeting under false pretenses. It’s poor form.

    5. Chaordic One*

      During the two years I worked as an Administrative Assistant in HR this NEVER worked! We were required to keep all applications, even unsolicited ones, on file for two years and during the time I worked there no one ever looked at an unsolicited application, resume or cover letter. The company may well have missed out on some good potential employees.

      The only people who ever got interviews were those who responded to an advertised job opening and applied for a specific position. If you did not get hired for a given position, you could apply for a different one. However, the application process started from scratch. It seemed like the process wasted a lot of our applicants’ time, but that’s the way it was.

  117. jm*

    I’m an EA at a large org, and when there’s an opening for an EA, I’m often asked to serve on interview panels to review candidates. Most of the other employees on the interview panel are supervisors, directors, etc. I appreciate that they want my input on candidates, and feel that being asked to serve in this way shows they respect my work. Should I include this on my resume?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Sure, if you do it relatively often, and it would be a useful skill in the position you’re applying for.

  118. offonaLARK*

    I have a question about whether something should/can be included on a resume, and how to go about it if so!

    Brief background: a friend of mine has written a fantasy table-top roleplaying game. (For those unfamiliar, think along the lines of Dungeons & Dragons or Pathfinder.) It is three volumes and over 1,000 pages total. He’s already taken it through Kickstarter, was funded, and will be publishing sometime in the next few months.

    My part in all of this is that I did some serious, in-depth editing to all of the books. He has two credited editors, one being another friend who works full time as an editor and did a standard, brief overview of the books, and the other is me. I gave it each of the books a full read-through not just for grammar, spelling, and punctuation but also for content and rules consistency. (My grasp of grammar is typically very good, though when writing for something more casual like this I let it go a little and use a little more slang and a lot more run-on sentences, ha ha!) I have also done this to each book at least twice, sometimes more, and all of my changes were implemented.

    I graduated from college a few years ago with a major in paralegal studies, which I enjoy for the research and the writing aspect, but also enjoy casework. I have not yet decided for certain if I would like to pursue law school since my degree counts as pre-law. I am currently working as an admin assistant for a medical asset management company, but plan to move in a few years and always like to keep my options open. I think the experience and skill with editing is definitely relevant to what I want to do with legal and technical writing, and may be relevant in other aspects of the legal field.

    Even though the book is going to be self-published, can this work go onto a resume? How would I even write it up? My friend has paid me for the work, so I guess I was freelancing? I don’t even know where to begin…

    Thanks for the look!

    1. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I would!! You could put it under your regular work experience and title it “Other Experience” or something like that. Then maybe something like Editor, Awesome Tabletop Game and under that a brief description of what you did.

      Incidentally, my husband wrote a couple of Hackmaster campaigns. He won’t let me put it on his resume though. :)

    2. neverjaunty*

      It should go on your resume as freelance editing work, but keep in mind that will be a lot less relevant to legal jobs per se.

      1. Drew*

        You obviously haven’t dealt with roleplaying gamers. They’re called “rules lawyers” for a reason. :-)

    3. Preux*

      If your friend payed you for the work, it was freelancing. Think of it from that approach; not as ‘edited a self-published tabletop game’ but rather as ‘edited work for a happy client on a freelancing basis’. I create e-book covers and advertising/branding material for self-publishing authors on a freelance basis, and the fact that they’re self-publishing doesn’t really come into it when I put it on my resume or discuss it in interviews; I certainly don’t hide it, but potential employers are less interested in whether it’s in a bookstore and more interested in how I advertise for clients, provide good customer service, handle difficult clients, etc etc.

      Of course, this depends on what you’re applying for. If it’s going to be an editing position, they’ll probably be interested in the fact that it was self-published, I assume, but I would think you should still present it in the same way.

  119. gingersnap*

    I’ve been hearing the advice that if you have a gap in employment that’s six months or more, you need to address it in your coverletter. How, exactly, does this work? Especially for recent grads. “Just fyi, I graduated in May, and I promise, even though now it’s December and I haven’t found work, I don’t really suck. Check out this cool conference talk/volunteer work/ etc” doesn’t sound terribly effective.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Eh, in that case I don’t think you need to explain it. Everyone will understand what’s happened there. You probably should have an explanation of what you’ve been doing for interviews though.

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, I think that’s more if you’ve had a career that you’ve stepped away from/been sidelined from.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t say anything in my cover letter, resume or application. If a potential employer is interested in you as an employee and curious about the gap they’ll ask you about it in an interview.

  120. sy*

    Can I ask for advice about dealing with an extremely nitpicky supervisor?

    For the most part I excel at my job, but my supervisor is known for being very nitpicky. She will find the most minor things possible, tie it to a similar thing that happened months prior, and then write me up and CC her boss so it shows it is a pattern. I am not the only employee she does this with, she is notorious, even to people who are not under her. I

    I need advice for gently pushing back – since I am making a minor mistake, I can’t really complain about it TOO much, but getting written up for a slight miswording seems like overkill. I should say that I don’t believe my job is at risk, I am a senior member on our team and I’ve gotten nothing but great reviews from people under me to my VP. Everyone but my immediate supervisor.

    1. Mela*

      Internal transfer? Sorry, but as long as she’s focusing on actual mistakes, it’s going to sound like you’re lazy/don’t want to bother doing it correctly. Is there a chance that a write up doesn’t mean much? If everyone knows her MO, then maybe they just roll their eyes when they get CC’d on her nutty emails.

    2. Mela*

      Sorry, now to answer your actual question…I find “Can you help me understand why (a write-up is needed for this type of mistake?” Also asking in general for feedback about your performance overall. Maybe that will mollify her into realizing you do care?

      1. sy*

        That is a good idea about asking for more context on why she’s writing it up. Thank you!

        I don’t think I can currently internal transfer, right now it looks like she is up for a promotion so I’m hoping she’s the one who transfers :/

  121. the gold digger*

    I listened to a Manager Tools podcast yesterday about resumes. (Thank you to whomever it was who recommended that podcast!) They said that career summary statements are not necessary and that hiring managers ignore them.

    Hiring managers, what do you think?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      They’re ignored if they’re generic/boring, which 99% of them are. But if you write one that doesn’t sound like it could be atop the resume of half the other candidates applying for the job, they can be useful. The issue is that most aren’t distinguishing in any way.

    2. Pwyll*

      The best ones I’ve seen were used by people whose career trajectory didn’t make any sense without some clarification. Someone applying to be a Bookkeeper, whose job titles for the past 15 years have all been things like “Graphic Artist” and “Sales Designer”, who wrote a few lines about how she decided to move into finance from such radically different fields. Yes, we hired her. Best bookkeeper ever.

      Completely ignored were the ones that said “Hard-working Bookkeeper with an interest in Quickbooks Cleanup seeking to use her detail-oriented skills to handle your books.”

    3. NoTurnover*

      Most of them are about the job seeker, not what the company needs, and therefore not useful. I agree with Pwyll that they would be most useful in a situation where a career trajectory needs explanation (though you could also do that in a cover letter).

  122. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

    Last night I applied for a position and shortly thereafter realized that I had applied and interviewed with this company and for the same job six years ago. (Not the same exact role, but same job title) I didn’t get it. I do have more industry experience now, but not the same as what they do. They make chocolate teapots and my current company makes vanilla and strawberry flavored teapots. But it’s still six years of teapot industry experience I didn’t have last time. Do you think my chances are nil or might I still have a shot? I also remember having a cold during this interview, which I’m sure didn’t help things. I only know one person that works there currently and she’s in customer service, so she really doesn’t have any kind of insight into hiring.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Impossible to know, I think. Maybe they just had some really outstanding candidates last time, so you could have a real shot now, or it’s possible that they’re looking for significantly more experience than you have right now. You can’t know from the outside.

  123. designbot*

    A couple of months ago in a moment of frustration I checked an industry job board and found an opportunity with a teapot design firm I admire. The only catch was that position was a bit more junior than I was really interested in, but I figured it’s just a conversation, can’t hurt to talk to them anyway. So I contacted the Director of Lid Design who I had met at a conference years before and he excitedly brought me in for an interview just a few days later. When I got there, all of my concerns evaporated because it turned out there was a second un-advertised position up for grabs. My contact there was moving out of state, putting the Director of Lid Design position on the table as well, and the interviewers literally said “well I think you could do his job” after seeing my portfolio. I went home ecstatic–a Director position would be an amazing opportunity for me. Some other companies might consider me too young for it, but their current Director of Spout Design is my same age and experience level, so it’s not unheard of either.

    Well, when the offer came in the title was Lid Designer, and I would be reporting to the Director of Spout Design. I pushed back on this a bit, making it clear that the ability to move into a more senior role was a major motivator for me, and was told that the company felt the salary I was offered communicated the seniority of the role and the title didn’t need to. I talked with the outgoing Director of Lid Design and found that he had been brought in under similar circumstances and he’d had to advocate for the title and role clarification, so I convinced myself that this was just how they did things. Many companies in our field don’t like to give titles until you’ve been with them for at least a year, so while I was disappointed I was doing my level best not to take it personally, despite the hiring manager really rubbing in the number of years of experience the outgoing director had compared to me. I would normally have advocated for a Senior Lid Designer or Lead Lid Designer title at this point, but a glance through their website and linkedin pages told me that these were not distinctions they made in this company–either you were a Designer, or you were management, no steps in between. So I dropped it, accepted the offer, and started work.

    Overall it’s gone well, but many of my colleagues have gotten confused by my title. Usually someone tells them that I’m “the new Tywin” but then they find out that my title is not the same as his and ask me why that is or how this is supposed to work. Additionally, I have a direct report who has the exact same title as me, which also leads to awkward conversations. I oversee her staffing, review her work, and generally act as a filter for requests she doesn’t have the experience to handle expediently, so the goal is for all requests about lids to come through me (the partner in charge of design has told me this, I’m not just assuming). When people bring this up I say “oh, you know, they don’t like to give out titles right away,” and try to use tone and body language to indicate that I’m above such silly concerns, but am not sure if there’s a better way to handle this? I guess I’m looking for a reality check–am I right that my title is not communicating my role effectively, or am I being overly sensitive to this because of the way the negotiations went? If it is a legitimate gripe, should I try communicating to the partner that the Director of Spouts and myself both report to? Or do I need to discuss it with the Director of Spouts first? I feel a bit weird about that because I would essentially be asking to be raised up to his level and he doesn’t have the power to do that, but I also feel like not doing so could be perceived as going behind his back and I don’t want him to think there is any animosity there. I knew this was something I would have to advocate for, but now that the time is coming to do it I feel terribly uncomfortable and like whatever I do will be the wrong thing, even as I’m hearing more and more people indicate without prompting from me that the way things are now confuses them.

    1. Mela*

      I think you have to focus on the impact it’s having on the workflow, if there is any significant impact. Also, are you actually this person’s manager? Can you discipline, hire/fire etc.? If they’re treating you as a senior co-worker, then there’s probably not much you can say. Can you talk with the former Director and chat about this? Maybe they have some insight as to how they handled it?

      1. designbot*

        Nobody has the power to discipline, hire, or fire here except for the partners. The former Director of Lids didn’t, and the Director of Spouts doesn’t.
        The impact on workflow is that certain people don’t come to me with Lid projects, they go directly to my report, or worse they just assume they can grab her at the time with no advance notice and pull her onto a project. Then some people go to the Director of Spouts, who says yes to everything but really has no clue what’s going on with Lids. This means that other ongoing Lid projects get adversely impacted, and it’s difficult to anticipate our future staffing needs because the information on Lids is not centralized with any one person. Also because I’m not the Director, I’m not in the staffing meetings, so I have to use back channels to communicate the needs for Lid designers.
        There’s also the question of the impression for clients who used to be handled by the Director of Lid Design and are now handled by a Lid Designer–do they feel like they’ve been downgraded? I have no clue, but it’s something I worry about. I want them to know they are in good hands and do everything I can to make sure I communicate that through the work.

        1. designbot*

          I should mention this is exacerbated by two issues–first, we are on the bubble of needing another Lid Designer, so it’s important to track the demand and hours for Lid Design to help us make this decision at the right time, and second the Director of Spout Design is extremely disorganized. So this is a situation that might hypothetically work if he were really on top of it, but he’s not and from what I’ve seen of his management style it’s unrealistic to expect that he could be.

    2. animaniactoo*

      You could be the Director of Lids and still report to the Director of Spouts.

      I think that you could push back against this and describe the confusion and questions it’s causing. Discuss the idea that the title belongs to the role you’re fulfilling, and positions have a wide differential of how much experience anyone has in them (or in the industry). The fact that the outgoing guy had more experience isn’t really relevant. If they need to have you reporting into the Director of Spouts for now reasons that make sense to them, then you’re not pushing back against that. Just the fact that you and your report having the same title is not sufficiently combatted by your salary as your co-workers have no clue what the different between your salary and hers is.

      And then you could side-out saying “I realize that titles like “Senior” or “Lead” aren’t used here, but maybe instituting something along those lines would be useful if you feel strongly about not using the title of “Director”.

  124. Mela*

    How to deal with giving an unwarranted good recommendation?

    So my husband has a new-ish co-worker who isn’t pulling his weight. Everyone is having issues with him. He just realized that when he was being hired, he accidentally gave him a good recommendation. He had mixed up a John and a Jonathan from the same city.
    John had a great reputation, co-organized a huge conference, my husband had heard him speak at said conference and was impressed. Jonathan was widely hated by everyone my husband met at said conference. Company was hiring Jonathan. Oops.

    Obviously the blame is not all on him, because there are other ways to give info. But because his opinion is highly valued, he really feels guilty (and mad at himself because he’s dealing with Jonathan as well). So how to phrase it when he owns up to getting confused?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’d call up the place he gave the recommendation to immediately and say “I’m so embarrassed, but when I gave a reference for John, I thought it was for a different John and it changes my recommendation. I’m so so sorry, I hope I can correct my error”

    2. Sadsack*

      I guess just be honest. He got the two confused based on their names, and that about all he can say, right? I have to say that I am confused as to who else would be to blame for this though.

      1. Leatherwings*

        Yeah, I didn’t understand that line either. The blame for this mistake is most definitely on him, and he needs to own that.

          2. Mela*

            Yea, that’s what I meant–“other ways to get info on the candidate.” One false good recommendation is no excuse for the company’s lax hiring practices (I’m pretty sure they don’t check references thoroughly and don’t know exactly how to interview non-tech people).

            He just definitely feels like a massive idiot for literally recommending the wrong person. It’s also that he’s one of the few people in this tiny start-up that gets a lot of money each year for conference travel/professional development because he’s proven himself in his ability to network, find new clients and potential new hires. So while none of that is in his job description, he’s built an internal reputation for being good at it. I think straight up mortification is his only recourse.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Talk to whoever he gave the recommendation to and say “I have to say, I was very surprised to see Jonathan here. I realize now that he’s who you were asking about when you asked me for my recommendation, but unfortunately I thought you were referring to John Holmes who was the conference organizer for one I attended. I didn’t remember that Jonathan was from the same city or I would have asked which one you meant. I’m sorry about the confusion.”

  125. Rebecca*

    I asked my manager a question this week, and she laughed, and said “what kind of a dumb assed question is that?”. I asked her about a work process that wasn’t being followed, how it affected me, and if she knew if there was a reason steps weren’t being followed.

    It took everything in me not to walk out the door right then and there. She is always so rude and dismissive, but for some reason, this really hit me hard.

    I had a phone interview two weeks ago, and I haven’t heard anything further, and I am holding out hope that I still have a shot at another job. At this point, nothing will give me more pleasure than give two weeks’ notice.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “One I don’t know the answer to?”

      But geez. Yeah. Fingers crossed for a speedy escape.

    3. neverjaunty*

      Wow. Best of luck getting away from this glassbowl.

      In the meantime, would it help to deal with her behavior if you pretended that her rudeness was an embarrassing expression of the fact that she didn’t understand you? “Maybe I didn’t explain that well. What I was asking was [repeats the question with minor variation].”

    4. Drew*

      “The kind that deserves a better answer than the dumbassed one you just gave me.”

      Probably not the right move, but I would have a tough time not saying that in the moment.

  126. Darren Garrison*

    I only discovered AAM a few weeks ago (during the virilization of the “interns petition for a new dress code” post) but have been browsing through the archives ever since. This recent news item reminds me of the post on the worker who was putting curses on other employees:

    (Worker looses discrimination suit after being fired for anointing the desks and walls of the office with crosses of oil. Just google “Eric Cheeley” so I don’t have to post a link that goes into moderation.)

    2. Gay Socialist Witch*

      If you’re going to put curses on your coworkers you need to be discrete about it. Amateur.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Guess what? There’s a big frog in Fergus’ office. Where do you suppose he came from?

        No, I haven’t seen Fergus.

      3. Observer*

        That’s not even the issue. He wasn’t trying to curse the office, he was trying to bless it. TBH, I think he needs a mental health check.

  127. Grateful for the Weekend*

    Happy Friday, all. This may be a bit of a long one but I’ll try to keep it short. I started a job search in the earlier part of the year when I realized I was happy at my then-job, but bored and there was no room for growth (something I discussed with my manager). In April I received an offer from a company that has a great reputation for a job that was supposed to be similar to what I was already doing but with room for growth, a higher salary and the promise of learning new skills so I accepted. My now former manager took the news really well and was extremely supportive and asked that I keep in touch because he hoped we’d be able to work together again some day. Fast forward four months and to say I’m miserable would be a gross understatement. Nothing is the way it was described in my interviews–my job title has changed and my duties are way outside of my skill set. Aside from that, my manager is a terror. He’s someone people avoid working with and has a poor reputation with co-workers because of the way he treats others. I’ve been yelled at, spoken to condescendingly and told that I need to learn faster. I’ve gone to HR to get guidance and his manager has told me that he knows whats’s happening, it’s not okay and he’ll coach my manager. I also found out that coworkers have also gone to HR because they see/hear what’s happening and they’re appalled. Obviously, I’m job hunting but it hasn’t been easy this go around. Even if my manager decides to start treating me like a person, I still feel duped about the job itself. I’ve tried reaching out to my former manager about the possibility of coming back to the company (not necessarily in the same role) but there’s concern that I could leave again, which is fair so I doubt I’ll be able to go back any time soon. I’ve thought about quitting because the constant anxiety is starting to take its toll on me mentally and physically but that’s not a realistic option right now. Everyone tells me I’m smart and have a great disposition so I’ll find something but that’s hard to believe at this point. I’m usually pretty lucky with my job searches but, of course, that isn’t the case this time around. Any advice or words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated because I’m starting to feel beaten down and hopeless.

    1. designbot*

      I’d do whatever you need to do to turn your outlook up, even if you know it’s temporary. Really focus on self-care, make sure you’re getting plenty of exercise, plus doses of whatever helps make you happy (for me: hiking, new music, cooking a fancy meal at home). Because from what I can read, the way you’re feeling now it the bigger problem in the long run than the way your boss is behaving. You know he’s wrong, everyone around him knows he’s wrong, and he is absolutely going to lose you to something better. But carrying around the way you’re feeling right now is going to impact your impressions on others and your chances at those other jobs. You do not deserve to be treated like this, you do not deserve this hopelessness, you have done nothing to warrant it, and you should be able to view the future knowing that something better is on the horizon for you.

      1. zora.dee*

        wow, this is beautifully put. I am not the person you are responding to, and yet I really needed to hear this today. I’m going to save it to remind myself when I need it.

        Thank you!!

    2. Drew*

      I really hate managers who think that being a jackass is the way to motivate their employees to do better work. In my experience, it is NEVER true; at best, they have scared employees terrified to show any initiative at all because they might do something wrong, and at worst, they lose talented people like you who refuse to work in a toxic workplace.

      FWIW, “they changed my job and misrepresented the duties and advancement potential” sure sounds like a legitimate reason to talk about when they want to know why you’re looking so soon. You don’t have to get into your glassbowl boss at all, and that’s probably for the best.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        I really hate managers who think that being a jackass is the way to motivate their employees to do better work. In my experience, it is NEVER true; at best, they have scared employees terrified to show any initiative at all because they might do something wrong, and at worst, they lose talented people like you who refuse to work in a toxic workplace.

        All of this, especially the last part. My last manager was a tyrant, and once I got tired of listening to her tear my coworkers apart over every little thing they did, I ended up leaving for another internal opportunity with better pay and a higher title.

  128. unsettled*

    hi guys, never commented here before but i feel weird about something that happened at work today and need perspective, if anyone is gracious enough to offer it. i’m an early 20s woman who works as a paralegal for a mid-60s male lawyer. today he tripped and fell in the office and got some bruises and a minor cut on his knee. he then asked me to bandage his bloody knee. i felt like i could not say no although i was really uncomfortable. so i knelt down and bandaged his bloody knee. the other lawyers and paralegals who share our office were all around and probably saw. i felt humiliated. i told a friend and my mom about this and both of them basically said, them’s the brakes with a low-level job, at least you’re gettign paid. i’ve had about 10 jobs before and nothing like this has happened. i believe it was grossly inappropriate for him to even ask me to do that, and it crossed a bunch of professional and personal boundaries. am i crazy?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ick, no, there’s no reason he couldn’t reach his own damn knee, right? It’s so hard to know what to say in the moment when something weird is happening, but for future reference, I think it would have been fine to say, “Well, I’ll get you a band-aid, and I think you can handle it from there.”

      1. unsettled*

        thank you! no there really wasn’t any reason why he couldn’t. i’ll keep that in mind, although hopefully i am never in this situation again :~)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You could bluff and go with, “I am not much on first aid help. I will get you some supplies and let you cover that in a manner that you prefer. Everyone has their own preferences, anyway.”

          Or if he knows you have a first aid back ground, you can go with, “hmm. My cert is up. I never renewed. And for smaller injuries I always felt it was best for people to put the bandage on the way they preferred.”

    2. Pwyll*

      I’m not sure that helping an elderly man apply a bandage is degrading, but it really depends on his tone and the pattern of other behaviors and interactions between the two of you. You should have felt comfortable enough to say, “I really don’t feel comfortable doing that. Can I check if anyone in the office has first aid training?” or something of the like. But at the same time, I’m not sure it was grossly inappropriate for someone in the office with a minor injury to ask for help in applying a bandage, either. This, of course, depends on whether you were asked for help or “told” to bandage his knee, and your level of comfort (if the sight of blood makes you queasy, for example).

      1. Pwyll*

        Hmm, maybe I’m picturing an injury more serious than this. If we’re talking band-aid size, that’s a lot closer to “grossly inappropriate”, especially if there’s no reason he can’t apply the bandage himself.

        1. unsettled*

          it was about a 1×1 inch cut and bleeding quite a bit. but my boss is quite able-bodied, i have never noticed any issue of that kind (although some disabilities are of course not visible). it would’ve been a great idea to ask around for first aid training, though! thanks!

        1. Pwyll*

          Yeah, I think I’m probably projecting my own boss into this unfairly. She’s 66 and not entirely stable on her feet, so that’s what I pictured.

    3. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      The sight of blood doesn’t normally make me faint, but I think I might have faked it for this. Ew.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Some people have a phobia of blood/bleeding. I’m not saying that this guy had that, but that could explain his request. Unless OP knows better, he may have mobility issues, or the cut was in a weird place that’s hard to see. I’ve got some mosquito bites on my knee that are hard to see but day-um if they don’t itch. Or he might have been in some mild shock, a fall can do that. I slipped and fell on the ice and while I had no choice but to stand up myself, I wasn’t “right” for a while. If someone had offered to help me up, I don’t think I could have turned them down.

        Or maybe big baby fell down and had a boo-boo. :P I hope someone brought him a cookie. /s Could have been worse, at least he didn’t ask you to kiss it and make it better!

        This kind of reminds me of the time we had to have training on How To Use An Epi-Pen. Which included the best places to jab your extremely allergic coworker in case they are incapacitated and cannot do it themselves. I am a bit phobic when it comes to needles so that was a fun session. :/

        1. unsettled*

          to my knowledge, no mobility issues, he appears to be quite able-bodied (although i know some disabilities are not visible). you certainly raise good points though! i am not squeamish about blood and bodily stuff at all, it was more the fact that i am still very new here (~6wks) and it felt like a very personal/intimate gesture, *and* i am very sure that he could have done it himself! thank you for the reply!

    5. Alex*

      I’ve never heard of being required to bandage up someone injury outside of nursing. That does seem very odd and out of place. Not only that, there is also the small but very real risk of contracting some type of blood borne pathogen. I doubt most legal offices have an ample supply of medical gloves available. If it happens again I would tell him that the sight of blood makes me too squeamish. Which it reasonably should especially if you don’t have gloves.
      Just a question, you mentioned that he is a male lawyer. Would it be any different if he was a female lawyer? I’m just trying to put my finger on why this is a gendered issue.

      1. unsettled*

        there is a larger culture in the office of vague sexism, good ol boy’s club type of things, disparaging comments about women thrown about daily, and i am frequently referred to as “[Boss Name]’s Girl” even though i am an adult professional. so i think the situation was vaguely gendered, although in another setting it may not have been – although of course i left the above context out of my original comment. and to answer your question, regardless of office culture, i would not feel comfortable doing this to a female boss either, i don’t believe this is appropriate in most situations, at least for me! thanks for your reply!

      2. blackcat*

        As a teacher at a school without a nurse, I was among several who were expected to bandage minor cuts & scrapes and make determinations of whether or not we needed to call parents.

        I was a designated teacher with this role because I took the opportunity to do (and was paid extra for) a 1st aid/CPR course. I had an awesome first aid kit, complete with gloves. It was very, very clear that I was not supposed to touch a bleeding child without putting on gloves. I was told this was an OSHA rule: employees must wear gloves when handling blood. I was allowed to look at (but not touch) cuts and supervise kids cleaning their own cuts and putting on bandaids when the cuts were obviously not bad.

        So as someone who *was* expected to administer first aid as a part of my job, I can say that what you were asked to do was totally inappropriate. If a boss wants to require an employee to administer first aid as a part of the job, they need to provide training & gloves, at a minimum.

        2. blackcat*

          Oh, and to be clear, I opted IN to this role. There was some pressure to do so because I was a science teacher (things can go wrong in science class!), but it was my choice.

          The only time I really regretted my choice was when a 17 year old kid had run into a pole (running while texting=bad idea) came into my classroom during lunch bleeding EVERYWHERE. The kid had split the skin on his forehead completely open. I’m good with blood, but man, this was nasty. And he had the nerve to get salty with me when I said he needed to call his parents/go to urgent care/possibly the ER. “But then my parents will know how stupid I was!” was his plea.

          The other dozen or so times I was called upon to use my first aid training were all fine. But ewww flapping forehead flesh. Ewww.

          1. TootsNYC*

            “But then my parents will know how stupid I was!” was his plea.”

            I’d have laughed so hard, saying, “Kiddo, they already know!”
            And, “In fact, they were probably exactly this stupid once themselves.”

    6. Margaret*

      Super weird, unless there was acknowledged reason he couldn’t do it for himself! I could imagine currently asking a coworker to help me in that situation, as I’m 8 months pregnant and depending on the angle/location I really might not be able to reach a wound myself (I’ve reached the stage of having my husband tie my shoes when I can’t wear slip-ons). However, if I were asking anyone other than my husband or mom to do that for me, and especially a coworker! I would definitely acknowledge how weird it is, and explicitly point out the reason I needed help even if I thought it would be obvious (e.g., if he has some mobility issue that he assumed you knew about).

    7. Aurion*

      I once had a man ask me in the co-ed changing room* of my swimming pool if I could put his sock on for him. But he was very polite and apologetic because he had strained something and couldn’t quite reach his foot, or something. Absent an explanation like that, yeah, I think it’s weird. I’m not sure about humiliating, but definitely weird.

      *There are co-ed/family, female, and male; I usually go to the co-ed one instead of female because it’s larger

    8. neverjaunty*

      No, this is really not OK and is not an appropriate request from an attorney to a paralegal. I was not surprised to see your later comment about the atmosphere at your firm. Paralegals are professionals in their own right, and if your law firm doesn’t respect that, find one that does.

  129. es*

    Hi all, I was recently let go from a sales position at a start-up company. Shortly after this happened, my email password was changed, as you would expect, and I was unable to access my work email account. However, I also have a separate email app on my phone that I used from time-to-time that must have somehow cached my login credentials and still allows me to view emails from the account somehow. Out of curiosity, I decided to look at the account, and I noticed that my former employer is impersonating me in responses to prospective clients I had relationships with. Beyond giving me the creeps, it’s strange because the tone and style of the writer is totally different than mine, and it’s sloppy (misspelled a prospect’s name) so that reflects poorly on me, especially for those folks that I had regular contact with.

    I know that I don’t “own” the email address, and I’m sure that this is probably legal, but this at the very least seems highly uncool for them to be passing themselves off as me and not identifying themselves? Thoughts?

    1. designbot*

      Are you connected with these contacts on LinkedIn? If so, I’d update your employment and make sure it’s published, so that they can see you’ve moved on. Then when they get an email from “you” they’ll wonder, and possibly ask outright.
      But also, delete that app from your phone. It’ll only make you crazy.

    2. Chaordic One*

      If it were me, depending on the relationship I had with the prospective client, I might send the client an email from my personal account telling them that I no longer worked at the start-up company as of the date I was let go (to sort of embarrass my former employer) without putting my former employer down and without acknowledging that I knew they were sending out emails in my name.

      I might say something like I enjoyed working with them and even ask them if they knew of any openings for someone with my skills.

  130. Pwyll*

    In my ongoing saga of job searching, I applied to an HR job at a relatively young company (~5 years old). This was one of those places that said “In lieu of a cover letter please answer these 5 questions.” Fine, I’ll type out a time that faced a challenge and how I got through it, whatever.

    After submitting, I received an automated e-mail with the subject PHASE TWO, that asked me to submit to them a 10 minute video of myself explaining my background and why I want to work for them. NOPE NOPE NOPE.

    A week later I got an actual e-mail from a person who let me know they still hadn’t received the video. I let her know I’d be happy to do a video conference with her, and she could certainly record it and share with her colleagues, but that in my professional opinion asking candidates who haven’t even been screened by you to take an hour to record and edit a video to “try out” for the job is pretty far off of usual professional norms. The (third party) recruiter told me that I was wrong. Then asked me why I didn’t want to be part of “the next Tesla.”

    NOPE NOPE NOPE.

    6. helloitsme*

      DON’T DO IT. The company I worked at that wanted something like that ended up being THE MOST HORRIBLE AWFUL PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT EVER. Seriously, I could’ve sued them for some of the things. Anyway, don’t do it.

    7. Chaordic One*

      It just sounds unreasonable. Of course there are now newspapers offering to help you with a video resume if you are interested.

  131. March*

    Just a quick grumble, not even a vent…

    Five to seven years of experience is not entry level, and trying to filter through postings that say they’re ‘entry level’ but want that kind of experience is a nuisance.

    5. helloitsme*

      Oh my god. Yes. This happened to me at a FINAL INTERVIEW. They wanted someone who had this very specific skill set (which I had) AND 5 years experience (which I had) and they wanted to pay entry level!!!! And the crazy thing is, they were shocked I wanted more than that!

  132. EA*

    What do ya’ll think about 2 week off? Is that a big ask? In my office, generally the only people who have taken 2 weeks off is for a ‘special event’ aka honeymoon. None of this has been spoken, it’s just seems to be the unspoken culture. I think its BS that my managers are in the business of judging whose event is special enough. 1 week give or take a couple days is fine. I did 10 days, and my managers seemed annoyed but approved it.

    How should I approach it? I know the obvious approach to pick a time that is slower and ask in advance. Do you think I should point out that this trip is *special to me*? Or push back if they ask if its a special event? Basically, I feel like they will ask if I am getting married/ or if this is a special occasion.

    1. TeaPotDesigner*

      In my previous office it was 2 weeks leave was quite common (with a month prior notice, enough annual leave and boss approval, of course). It was widely understood that staff had the right to recharge, plus you can’t really travel very far with a 1 week holiday.

    2. Mike C.*

      I think you should do the opposite – schedule the time off with a complete plan for coverage. Don’t go into any details about what you’re going to do, just that everything will be taken care of. Be the change you want to see at work.

      Paid time off is a benefit, much like your paycheck. Does your manager approve what you spend your money on? Nope.

      1. Dawn*

        Ohhhh my god I just did a full body shudder at the thought that there are probably some managers out there that demand to know why their employees need so much money as a salary and what are they spending all that money on.

        You know they exist.

  133. Mica*

    One of my coworkers has entered “bitch eating crackers” territory with me. I hate to ask this, because this is so stupid to ask, but can someone go from “bitch eating crackers” territory to “normal co-worker I can tolerate” territory? I feel so bad, because she’s not a bad person at all. Something about her just makes me CRINGE. I can’t explain it. Lately, I think I’ve been a bit chilly towards her and I feel bad. There’s no good reason for me to dislike her, but I do! This is such an immature question, sorry!

      2. Pwyll*

        Urban Dictionary tells me (because I had to look it up too):

        “Everything this person does annoys you, even something as simple as eating crackers.”

    2. Colette*

      Yes, I think you can go back to tolerating her.

      What do you tell yourself when she annoys you? Do you try to come up with reasons why she’s doing whatever it is or sympathize with her issues (e.g. “Wow, that’s a bad cough, it must be tough”) or do you focus on the irritation?

      Do you ask, calmly and politely, for what you want when it’s a reasonable thing to ask for (e.g. “Would you mind throwing you trash from lunch away in the kitchen so that we don’t get fruit flies?”)

      The solution to this lies with you, not her.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Hey, I’m in this spot too. One of my coworkers is really harmless, but he’s bad at his job and doesn’t pick up on social cues at all (for example, pestering me about weekend plans when I’m listening to music with headphones and visibly working on a project). He irritates the heck out of me, so I’m just being chilly and distant with him.

    4. Gandalf the Nude*

      Yes, it is possible, though I don’t know if I have any useful advice on how. I had a BEC coworker at my last job with whom I parted on decent terms. The only thing I specifically remember doing was refusing to listen to other people’s complaints about her anymore (she was disliked by almost everyone at that point). If there’s any chance other folks are feeding into that negative perception, definitely cut it off. More recently, I got out of BEC territory with a fellow community service volunteer by getting drunk together at a wedding (also by making a point of being nice because I knew I was coming across as chilly, but it wasn’t until the wedding that I felt it working). I’m not going to recommend that one for a coworker.

      1. PackersFan*

        I think Gandolf the Nude is spot on here with his suggestion to stop hearing complaints for other people if that is a problem. Last job I had a coworker who I really didn’t like. She wasn’t a bad person and was decent at her job but yea, for some reason, BEC for a few of us. As long as I didn’t engage in conversations about why she had rubbed us the wrong way it was generally ok. I did have one exception to that rule, as she sat on the other side of the cube wall and couldn’t see me, I had a coworker who would indulge me to roll my eyes at her when this coworker was speaking if it was especially off the wall.

        I find that time also helped. The longer we worked together after she got to BEC mode the easier it was for me to take her out of that mode and accept her as a coworker with whom I had to get along.

    5. Drew*

      Yes, that’s a possible evolution. I think it requires an explicit talk with yourself: “I know the way Francesca giggles nervously for no reason several times an hour is getting on my nerves, but we’re going to keep working together and it sure doesn’t seem like she’s going to quit doing it, so it’s time to learn to stop hearing it.”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This is going to sound odd, but think a positive thought about her randomly throughout the day.

      “I wish her the best today.”
      “She actually does do good work.”
      “Aww, her kid got honors roll in school, that is actually a nice thing for her to see.”

      Deliberately make yourself think a positive thought, at first this will seem weird. Then you might think, this is not weird, it’s HARD. Keep going, push through the weirdness/hardness until you feel your attitude softening.

  134. Sally Sparrow*

    I have a new supervisor but she doesn’t seem to be managing me and I have nothing to do.

    Basically, I was hired on to do W, X, Y, and Z.
    W went back to a CW who was out on leave and was originally their responsibility.
    X went to a new hire.
    Y and Z only make up less than 40% of my day – if that. Most days they take up about an hour or two.

    Supervisor started when all of the above transition took place with my workload. We did sit down and I told her bluntly, my job description is not accurate. I barely have anything to do and the only things that are consistent still are Y and Z.

    Two months have gone by and I’ve been limping along by begging work off of other CWs. I’ve told supervisor that I don’t have anything to do several times in the interim, even giving her advanced warning – Hey this week/today I have stuff, but I know tomorrow/next week I won’t, just a heads up I need something to do. She’s said that she is working on an updated job description for me a week or two ago, but I haven’t seen anything.

    I also don’t know if the supplemental stuff I’ve been doing is appropriate (boss has said hard no’s in the past, but I literally have nothing to do and boss isn’t entrenched in my day-to-day anymore). In a broader sense, I don’t know if someone of the mundane things I’ve been doing are my job/responsibility. I did ask for clarification on one thing, but she didn’t have an answer and said she would get back to me, but that’s been about a week or two as well.

    Am I being unreasonable to think this is a bit dysfunctional? Are my expectations too high?

    1. WellRed*

      There are few things worse than having nothing to do at work. It’s boring and maybe a bit demoralizing.

    2. Don't say my name!*

      Ugh! This is happening to me. I spent most of this week doing nothing (until I got a new PC and had to take time acclimating to Windows 10). Eventually I’ll have things to do, but they’ll be so far out of my comfort zone I’m not going to be happy. I shall watch this question. You basically posted my post for today!

  135. Fenchurch*

    I’ve applied internally to a few positions over the past year. Not that I hate my current role, but I want to grow. My current area doesn’t exactly foster growth.

    Every time I’ve interviewed, I’ve had managers reach out to me and set up lunch saying they “want to keep the dialogue open” since they really liked me. Most recently I didn’t even interview, but my current manager as well as the director of my area spoke so highly of me and pushed so hard for them to bring me in that the hiring manager (who I’ve never met) set up a lunch and ALSO wants to keep in touch.

    I’m just frustrated that although I have never gotten negative feedback (quite the opposite, actually!) I still am stuck where I am, with no idea of how to move forward.

    I know, it seems like a petty thing to vent about, but it’s been really frustrating being on everyone’s back-burner with no promise of commitment.

    1. AnonCat*

      Stay positive! Very few people get to hear that kind of feedback after an interview. Something will give, but it just takes time. If they really like you, they will find something for you. Or even create a position for you.

  136. Dynamic Beige*

    For those of you who hire designers/consultants…

    I am in a very niche field. So niche most people don’t even know it exists. Problem is that I get all my work from agencies and referrals (which are usually to other agencies). Any work I do is technically not mine (by contract), so I can’t put it on a website. If I were to meet someone in person, I could show them things on my computer with no problem, but sending them via FTP would not be a good idea because you never know where something is going to go or end up. A lot of files have confidential information on them or I just did the animation, not the logo design (for example), which is something I explain when I meet/talk with people. Or I did the clean up, which while still important, isn’t as high-level. Probably I could “interview” over screen sharing but I’d rather not spend loads of time trying to convince someone to hire me when a website could do a lot of that for me (I hope).

    I have been trying to put together a website so that I can get out of the agency stuff and work for people direct, but it’s hard. Everyone wants a link to your online portfolio and… what if that portfolio link is to stuff you did independently to show as samples because you can’t show actual work? Would that matter to you in hiring a freelancer/consultant? Should there be some notation or synopsis to explain the “project” and that it’s an idea/not actual paid-for work?

    1. alice*

      I don’t hire, but I used to be a freelance graphic designer. Sometimes showing the process is more important. Maybe you could show two or three drafts of a project, explain how you made edits and why, and then explain that the final version is unavailable due to the client’s confidentiality agreement or something. What if you showed screenshots of the result but replace the text with lorem ipsum? Or you could you host a couple of pages of the resulting site with lorem ipsum just to give prospective employers an idea of the look and feel.

    2. PS*

      I think it would be perfectly professional of you to include some kind of note indicating that the contents of your portfolio are examples of the kind of work you’ve done for other clients. You could then say — more or less – -that some of the actual work you’ve done for clients has been in collaboration with other folks and other aspects of that work contain confidential information and respecting your agreement with those clients is a priority to you.

      If you think it would help, you could indicate that you have a list of those clients as references.

    3. designbot*

      It’s really common in design for there to be a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and that’s why one of the most important interview questions is “So what was your particular role on this project?” Could you show the final product along with a clear description of what services you provided, and even a list of other team members, for example:
      Teapots Incorporated Campaign
      Role: Animation, 3D visualization
      Team: Designer (logo/identity), Arthouse (sketches), Studio (design concept)

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        No, I cannot display anything in public that was done for an agency. I asked and everything. The answer I was given by one of them was “If this is out there on the Internet, and my client sees it, why would they come back to me when they could just call you?” Not even changing the data/replacing with Lorem Ipsum. Not even mentioning that I have done work for ClientX, ClientY because they are not “my” clients, but the agency’s clients. They are all extremely territorial when it comes to their clients and if I was to put the work up, I would essentially be either breaking a contract/confidentiality or never work in this town again. It’s a small industry and everyone knows everyone. If I had all kinds of money, I could pull that trigger and let the chips fall where they may. But I cannot afford to fire all my agency clients at this point in time.

        Also, a lot of the work is what you say with the too many cooks so when someone else is doing the design, I format the template from that, the client pulls slides from a hundred bad decks and then I clean them up… at the end of the day, it’s not worth it to change all that text to Lorem Ipsum, or even Bacon Ipsum, because the original design is so bad.

        *sigh* It’s gotta be 5 o’clock somewhere. :(

        1. animaniactoo*

          I’m not in the hiring position, but I’m familiar with the kind of situation you describe. What I’ve seen in this situation is sample projects like you describe alongside a listing of clients for whom you have done similar projects.

          In that you can include an example of cleaning up a deck pulled from a variety of sources, you’ll just have to create both the sources and finished result yourself for that portion as well.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            So, in other words, a sample is OK so long as it looks “real” and you don’t need to have some sort of statement or explanation that it wasn’t a paid project? Because I’m not certain I could even mention the end clients beyond “several large pharmaceutical companies” or “one of the largest banks in Canada.”

  137. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

    Thank you to everyone who commented when I last posted on open thread! I just wanted to update to say that I have had two interviews now and they said they will let me know after Labor Day. This job has a background check that they said will take weeks to complete. Wondering if that’s why they haven’t asked me for references? Or maybe that is coming?

    1. Pwyll*

      Congrats! In my last government job, they didn’t check references until after the background check and security clearance processes were complete. I imagine they didn’t want to make reference calls until they were sure they’d be able to hire.

      Good luck!

  138. Anon for This One*

    So last week I posted about the CEO giving everyone the silent treatment as punishment for a few people in the department doing whatever thing he didn’t like. It creeped me out and a lot of people agreed that it was abusive of him and thought I should look for a new job.

    My question is how do you screen for this sort of thing in an interview/application process? Because you can’t exactly ask “hey, is your CEO an emotionally abusive narcissist? Just wondering.”

    I’ve also had enough jobs to realize that something was terribly dysfunctional in some way or another in pretty much all of them. So perhaps I’m just cynical but to me it seems less like “find a work environment that doesn’t have problems” and more like “find a work environment whose problems I can live with.”

    (The jury is still out on whether I can live with this current one. I like the work itself and my boss is nice, and also a woman in a male dominated industry, which is a point in this job’s favor as I am also a woman. But some of my coworkers are very rude about the fact that I didn’t come in knowing everything.)

    1. PS*

      Hi,

      I think the key might be in the questions you get to ask at the end of the interview — have a couple of questions about the company/ job — and then, maybe ask outright what are the best and most challenging aspects of the company overall? Or — why they like working at the company… or, if you have a committee interview, I had one candidate ask us all to go around the room and use one word to describe the organization…

  139. PS*

    I need some help figuring out what is fair….. and what I should do..

    Here’s the problem:
    I teach at a community college, and I have a lot of responsibilities beyond teaching. Most of them involve interacting with administration etc — I’ve been there a long time, so I know many people across campus. A good part-time job came open and my husband met the basic qualifications and he’s a graduate of the program, so he applied. One of the committee members told me they were contacting finalists, but my husband was not contacted. We decided it was probably because he didn’t meet the preferred qualifications and let it go.

    At the beginning of the school year, a committee member asked me why my husband didn’t return the phone call (supposedly made by an administrative assistant) to schedule an interview. The committee member also told me that they were denied permission to contact me when they were told that he hadn’t returned the phone call. They went on with the hiring process and hired someone for the position.

    At this point — there are two problems… 1) I checked our phone records via the phone company, and there was no call to my husband’s number, and 2) he indicated on his application that his preferred method of contact was via e-mail. He also received no e-mail.

    At the beginning of the year, the day before the new hire was supposed to start, the other person doing that job quit. When I found out about the new opening, I told the Dean in charge of hiring for that position that my husband never got a phone call to interview. That Dean is also my Dean and I work closely with them on a regular basis. It seems to me that the fair thing for my Dean to do would have been to interview my husband for the new opening. He didn’t do so and he hired someone else.

    So — now I need some guidance. At a minimum, I would like some kind of assurance that the administrative assistant who neglected to contact my husband for the interview is made to understand that this is not an ok thing. I don’t know how to go about that, tho — since the list of interviews was supposed to be confidential.

    I would also like to make a complaint/ suggestion to HR to revise the guidelines for contacting candidates to indicate that candidates should ALWAYS be contacted via their preferred method of contact. Since we have a horrible record of being reactive instead of proactive, if I were to bring up how I know this is a current problem, I would have to explain how I know, and I would have to tell them that I have confidential information.

    Finally — I need some good words about how to continue to work with my Dean and this administrative assistant.

    By way of background — I’ve had problems with her lack of attention to detail on small and large things — problems ranging from missing a file I sent to her to completely screwing up cancelling my classes for a week when I had a family emergency. I also had her child in one of my classes, and it’s quite possible that she intentionally missed contacting my husband (we have the same last name) because she didn’t like the grade her daughter got in my class.

    As for the Dean, he’s been very good in his first year. He’s compassionate, kind, firm when needed and generally he’s been very good at managing a rather large and chaotic bunch of faculty.

    Thanks a big bunch for your thoughts on this one…

    1. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

      This is probably not what you want to hear, but you should stay out of it and you should probably not have said anything to the Dean. Your husband should have followed up directly about the position and he should follow up directly now. Spouses should not be involved in communicating regarding the other spouse’s employment or prospective employment.

    2. Colette*

      I don’t think they’re were under any obligation to interview your husband after their first choice quit. I think that you’re thinking it wasn’t fair that he missed out due to someone else’s mistake, but life isn’t fair. If they had good candidates from their previous process, they didn’t need to go back to the beginning and start again.

      Next thought: you’re way too involved in this. Why are you checking phone records? I mean, it’s fine to check for your own curiosity, but your husband’s job search is his to own. If you are too involved, it will hurt his search. (For example, if the dean thinks you’re too involved, he may have decided not to consider your husband because he doesn’t want drama with you if your husband doesn’t do well.)

      You’ve told the dean about the mixup. That’s all you can do. Dealing with his assistant is his responsibility, and you need to assume he’s taken care of it appropriately.

    3. Adam V*

      I don’t really know that you can complain about a lot of that – I think it would come across as involving yourself in your husband’s job search, or worse, confronting them on refusing to hire him, when both the Dean and the assistant can make a good case for why (in the Dean’s case, he was told your husband never called back, and in the assistant’s case, she’s not likely to be questioned on “did you actually call or not” – and even if she is, she could always claim “oh, I guess I dialed a wrong number”). Not to mention, they’ve already hired a second person for this job, so you’re not going to get the *real* recourse that you want (the college hiring your husband).

      I would focus on the other things – the issues you’ve had with this assistant causing you additional work through her inattention to detail. Bring those up to your boss because those are things he needs to know about because they affect you. (I *might* also drop in there “I hate to mention this, but I had her daughter in my class, and she didn’t get a great grade, and I’d hate to think that [assistant] is upset with me over that and doing anything intentionally”, but that might come across as a violation of Hanlon’s Razor.)

    4. animaniactoo*

      I think you need to completely drop the issue of your husband not getting the interview. There may be other political stuff going on that you’re not aware of and this may have been a cover by somebody higher up as to why he wasn’t being contacted vs “We don’t want this particular couple to both be working for us (or any couple under the same supervisor)” or some such. NOTE: I’m not saying this is the reasoning, just that it’s a possibility that they don’t want to come straight out and say because they don’t want to handle any grief they might get over such a decision.

      Second, if it WAS this particular admin’s failure, what you need to know is two-fold: Nobody is owed an interview, ever. Not even when mistakes were made. And it is likely that other people who were supposed to be contacted weren’t. So they also missed out and one of them might have had an even better interview and he wouldn’t have gotten it anyway. As long as *somebody* who is well qualified to do the role was hired, that’s what matters.

      If you talk to the dean about anything you should focus on the repeated issues you’ve had with her work. Full stop. Nothing else. Do not even make mention of her daughter’s grade. I’m sure her daughter got grades in other classes that she didn’t like as well. Ignore that, focus only on what you can prove is an issue that impacts you and you alone directly in your work only environment. Missing files, not canceling classes that were supposed to be canceled, etc. And at this point, I wouldn’t even address that as you’ve pre-seasoned the water by telling him about the missed phone call. Give it awhile and see how life goes.

    5. designbot*

      I’m not even convinced based on what you said that he was meant to be called. One person on the committee said he wasn’t, another said he was, and actions bear out that he wasn’t called. Unless there’s more that you’re not telling us, I’d say it’s more likely that the person who thought he was meant to be called was mistaken than the other way around.
      Don’t press this issue. This is exactly why this is considered a conflict of interest, because you are too involved and too eager to push your family’s agenda here.

  140. oversensitive anon*

    I work in a small Chocolate Teapot factory. For unknown reasons, management decided two weeks ago that we need to triple our production until the end of the month, with no increase in staffing. This is going just about as well as one might expect.

    There have been plenty of mistakes made because everybody is rushing and no one has time to help anyone else. I have personally seen many of the mistakes. I have made mistakes myself, some based on other people’s mistakes and some all on my own. (Luckily, our product is fairly frivolous and about as vital to most people’s lives as an actual chocolate teapot, so no one is going to actually suffer because of our errors and hopefully management will have to deal with some complaints.)

    These mistakes have been brought to my attention. I respect and appreciate that the reprimands happen privately. I do not need or want to know that Fred broke two spouts or Sally only increased production by 173% or Eglantine put a handle on backwards. But I am aware that there is quite a bit going wrong besides just me. Is it selfish/needy of me to want to hear something like “yeah, you messed up, but you don’t suck worse than anyone else”?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Just my two cents – I don’t think it’s wrong for you want to hear that — but it sounds like given the description you described, it’s pretty much a given anyway…and that you yourself can see that this is true. I don’t understand why management does this — expect increased output with no support, etc.

    2. PS*

      I guess it depends on your relationship with your supervisor…

      You could ask a question about the big picture — framing it as a concern that the increased production requirements have reduced the quality of your work, and asking if that is a concern for your supervisor and across the company.

      1. oversensitive anon*

        That’s a good idea, but my supervisor is as stressed as the rest of us if not more, and unfortunately it seems that his “people skills” are the first to go.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Not at all. But at the same time, I would push back against the reprimands. “Unfortunately it’s very hard to be as careful and detailed as I normally am with the majorly increased demand. Do you know if it’s going to remain at this volume going forward?”

      Because yes, I expect that having met it, only *somewhat* badly, TPTB are going to keep pushing for increase, without additional staffing, and I would be sounding alerts now that the mistakes are due to the volume. Even in private. The volume question is to give yourself info about whether TPTB have lost their minds enough that you want to start that jobhunt now, rather than in 2 months when you are that much more burnt out from trying to meet the demands.

      1. oversensitive anon*

        They say this is a one-time surge, but I don’t think I believe it and I am starting to search because I want my reference to be positive and not that I make lots of mistakes.

    4. AnonCat*

      Why do companies do this to their employees? I would much rather cancel orders and lose money than lose customers for good because of poorly made products.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You can want to hear that, but you probably won’t.

      It is to their advantage if you think you screw up a lot, that will make you work harder. (NOT)

      Know your productivity numbers. Every day. ” I am doing x number of teapots, I have tripled my productivity. Previous I had y errors per week, I am now running at 3y errors which is explained by I am doing three times as much.”

      Most production lines have an acceptable fail rate. What is the rate for your work? Are you below that rate? Let’s say an acceptable fail rate is 2%. You do 1000 teapots a week.
      This means that if you have 20 bad pots then you are at the acceptable fail rate.

      What I would do is not push through other people’s bad work. Give it back to them. Don’t take the hit for their mistake.

      Another thing you can do is have a big picture conversation with your boss. “I hope they don’t speed up the line like this again, there seems to be a lot more problems since they have done this.” Let him know that you see the over all idea of what is going on.

  141. theguvnah*

    Anyone have experience in stepping up in an Interim role for a while and then stepping back down successfully once someone is officially hired?

    I’ve been the interim department head at my nonprofit for about 6 months and it’s looking like it will be at least that long again until someone is hired, due to some other sequential hiring taking place first. I don’t want the permanent role – it requires an expertise that I can muddle my way through for now but in order to go next level they need someone else so I am theoretically happy to one day give up this interim role and go back to my regular (still leadership and manager-level) role. But I am also seeing how it will be hard to let go of some of the things I do now and the decisionmaking I enjoy.

    Has anyone experienced this and how did it go for you? (I recognize of course that the specific personality and relationship I develop with the new hire, when that time comes, will be instrumental in this question).

    1. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

      I have been in a slightly different scenario. I was a law firm associate who handled partner’s clients in a more hands-on way while the partners were on maternity leave (I already did client-facing work with these clients before, but stepped up as main point of contact). It does work out. The good news is you really do beef up your skills, and if the person comes back (or new person comes in, in your case), then hopefully you will still be able to use some of the experience and be given additional responsibility than you otherwise would have had. It can be disappointing when you were holding down the fort yourself and then all of a sudden you aren’t needed anymore or in the same capacity, but it does get back to normal.

    2. PS*

      I work in higher-ed, so I see this happen a lot — I had several interim Deans, academic vice presidents, and I currently have an interim college president.

      It seems to me that the key is a successful turn-over in duties and good communication about why you made particular decisions etc. So — one way to do it is to keep a work journal of sorts that tracks decisions you’ve made and the contributing factors to that decision… with the understanding that you’ll be leaving a set of relevant files for your new boss. That way, they can look (or not look) at what you’ve left in terms of documentation and process, and proceed from there.

  142. helloitsme*

    How can I tell if recruiters think I’m overqualified or under-qualified for a position? I’d like to know how to tailor my cover letter to address any “elephants in the room,” but I’m not sure how to guess what they are.

    I’m in a unique situation. I have 8 years of professional experience (though 2 continuous years were when I was still in college, so you can call it 6 if you want). The last company I was with was a start-up. Even though I joined 5 years after they officially started, I became a co-founder. Not much was happening before I joined, but after I did, we were able to raise hundreds of thousands in capital, as well as half a million in distribution deals. I oversaw the brand, investor relations, client relations, marketing, and PR. I was originally an officer of the corporation, but we decided to change my title to Director of Marketing. (We though it would look better to investors because of the way this specific industry is regulated).

    Before that, I oversaw the marketing team at a firm. (It was a small team, but we had about 100 clients.) I helped restructure the company and completely change the way the marketing campaigns were set up. (One month after I put my ideas into practice, email open rates and click through rates increased 600%(!), clients who had never been successful with PR were now on the news, and our clients’ clients were raving about the marketing materials!)

    I also started 2 other “side businesses”; one for songwriters, and a jewelry company. Both I worked on while I had my other jobs.

    I have other things on my resume (and it’s written more concisely than this), but just to give you a basic idea… I’m “Marketing Director” on my resume, and I think my achievements reflect this… but I only have 6 or 8 years of experience.

    So when I’m applying to jobs, “Marketing Director” jobs usually ask for 10+ or 12+ years of experience… which I clearly don’t have on my resume. And while I’m sure I could do it, I’m not going to lie about it.

    Then, if I’m applying for “Marketing Manager” jobs (some of which look really fun and awesome!!!) I worry that I look overqualified, because my title is not “Marketing Manager” (and a lot of them only ask for 3 years of experience). But in other ways, I feel like maybe I look under-qualified, since some of them are in industries I haven’t worked in, where the job description lists requirements that are specific to that industry (but I believe I could do). Some of them I think “Well maybe they’ll see my resume and it’ll balance out! I have more experience than they need, but less in the industry, so that’s like having 3 years experience!”

    Bottom line is, I think my resume is impressive from the “Oh wow, I’m impressed!” angle, but doesn’t seem to be impressive from the, “Your career path is magically perfect for this job. Please work here now,” angle.

    Should I go for lower-rank jobs and change my job titles? Or take out my achievements to seem less “impressive”? (That actually did work when I thought I was going to live in a different city, but it felt really bad to think someone wanted to talk to me because they thought I was “worse” than I was. AND I don’t want an entry level salary.) Or… just apply to the “Marketing Director” jobs and hope they like me better than the people with 15 years experience?

    I want a job where my skills and achievements are valued, and I’m not sure how to go about this because of my unusual career path! Please help!!!

    1. PS*

      I’m in higher ed, and we have a convention by which we adjust our resumes to fit the institution — You could do something similar. For the lower-level jobs, basic information about what you’ve done should be sufficient — so that, it’s clear to them you’d be happy with their job and not just use them as a stepping stone.

      For the 10+ years experience jobs, your accomplishments should be highlighted a bit more and you should count the two years you worked while you were still in college (as long as they were full-time years).

      As far as the cover letters go, one in which you mention that you are eager to join their team (for the lower-level jobs) and one in which you are eager to lead the group.

      1. Amanda*

        So you think it’s ok to just list the tasks I did (for the lower level jobs) and leave off the acheivements? I thought about doing this, but a recruiter told me I needed to list acheivements or I’d get passed over.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Tailor the resume to the job. But make sure that if you dial back the resume that you actually would be happy in the job. If you have to dial it back too much that maybe a clue the job is not for you.

  143. Shiny Teapots*

    I’ve been a little stressed about my situation recently.

    I was hired in November as a 40-hour/week contractor. So I’m basically full-time sans benefits/official status. The contract was for 6 months and got extended for another 6 months. The prospect looked very good for me getting hired full-time, but then … things happened.

    My boss got promoted to another department. She wants me to come with her, but they can’t offer me the job until my contract ends. As someone who has been freelancing for years, a potential offer should seem like a gift from the heavens, but the thing is my new job wouldn’t be my current job. I’m really into pursuing teapot design, and this would be more like being an assistant to my old boss in her new role. Not like a personal assistant, exactly (like I wouldn’t be scheduling flights etc. but more like taking over the work she’s too busy to do or otherwise would like to delegate).

    I can do that work. I’ve done some in my current role, but that’s not what I want to do. I want to design teapots. I’ve somewhat confided to my new boss that I’d like to stay in my current role, but they plan to keep it a contractor position (and company policy doesn’t allow a temp to stay for more than 18 months).

    So hmm. I either need to 1.) take the assistant job, 2.) stay in the current role I love until my temp time runs out, or 3.) apply for her old job which, I’ve been encouraged to do, but don’t know if I want to because I am currently covering for her in the interim and I’m an introvert and find all the managerial stuff really stressful. I just want to design teapots, you know?!

    So, for the first time since I started, I feel like maybe I should look for new work, which is really sad to me because I love the company culture and I just love working there. I’m not sure if I’m asking advice, just sharing sadness when you love where you work but there’s not really a “perfect position” for what you want to do. I’m obviously also considering just doing one of the positions I’m less interesting in because maybe it’s hard to find a workplace you like, but I’m not sure…

    1. PS*

      Here’s the way I see it…

      Your current job is going to end, at a minimum in about 8 months. So, you have that much time to love what you’re doing and the organization you’re working for, and then it will be over.

      You could stay with the company doing things you are less in love with, but you’d still be contributing to the mission etc — and it seems as if they really appreciate you. If you take one of the other possible jobs, you know you’ll be working for people who are a good fit for you.

      It’s possible that you will not like the work and at that point, you can resign — having had additional experience that will make you more competitive as a designer because you’ve seen the bigger picture in the management role. You can also tell a new company, honestly, that you prefer the work of a designer and you know that because you’ve done the other role and decided to leave it.

      It’s also possible that the company will decide not to have this continue to be a contract role, and you can apply for the permanent position. You have a good track record in that position, so you’d be a very strong candidate.

      I guess if it were me (and I’m also an introvert), I’d probably apply for my boss’ old job, and if that didn’t work out then go for the assistant to your old boss. I think a good company culture can make up for a lot of flaws with the actual work AND, I’ve learned from experience that an introvert can do jobs that require a set of extravert qualities. Since the job would be your permanent role, you can shape how those tasks are handled (i.e. you don’t have to just fill in for an extrovert… :) .

  144. Rob*

    I’ve been invited to fly in for a round of in-person interviews for a university after having cleared previous phone and application screenings. There will be multiple stages, and one of them is with a lady in HR. My contact in the university says it is highly unusual for people to be asked to meet with the HR, unless they are planning on offering me the job. In other words, I should feel great about my chances. I, on the other hand, think it might have to do with them wanting to verify my legal status to work in the US (I had clarified that I can when asked and in the application, but I also am from Europe).

    – Which scenario is more likely, if either?

    – Should I bring along a copy of my CV or anything else to pass to interviewers, or is that considered old school?

    – Is it OK to take minor notes during an interview for points you want to touch on? And what about bring a set of questions you want to ask them?

    1. Dawn*

      – Probably much more likely they seriously like you than they want to verify your legal status. How is you being there in person going to verify your legal status? I mean, presumably you’ve already told them you’re legal?

      – Yes, ALWAYS bring extra copies of your resume. Even if I don’t need them I still notice when people don’t

      – Yes, I would say ALWAYS bring a notepad and take minor notes/ questions. It makes you look super prepared and also shows that you’re treating the interview like a two way conversation.

      1. Rob*

        Thank you Dawn. Yes, I did tell them I am legally employable, but that was to the hiring manager. I was thinking maybe HR wanted to know more details about my status. But I’m glad to hear you think it’s a sign they seriously like me. I’m assuming you are implying that they are looking to offer me the job and if not, they wouldn’t have scheduled a meeting with HR.

        Anything else I should bring other than extra copies of my CV?

        1. Chaordic One*

          This does indeed sound encouraging.

          HR will probably want to verify the details of your status and eligibility to work in the U.S. by having fill out an I-9 form. You can speed things up by bringing along the documentation showing that you are eligible to work in the U.S. The exact paperwork will vary depending on all sorts of things, but in general, bring along your Passport and/or your Permanent Resident Card (also known as your Green Card), and your U.S. Social Security card (if you already have one).

          If you have an I-94 number and know it, please provide it. If you don’t know your I-94 number and they need it, they should be able to look it up. If you have any other related paperwork it would probably be helpful to bring that, too.

    2. Emmie*

      I would take their invitation to fly out as them being serious about your candidacy. Yet, I would not read too much into the meeting with HR. Every school / business does things differently, so it’s not an indication that they’ll offer you the job. I’d focus on doing well, being confident in your skills, and really tying your experience into the job needs. Good luck!

    3. anon again*

      The university I work at includes a session with HR during these types of interviews. Part of the reason is for paperwork such as employment verification and authorization for background checks. But it’s also an opportunity for HR to explain the benefits package and answer questions the candidate might have about benefits. The benefits can differ depending on employee category and union contracts, so HR likes to handle the benefit discussions to ensure candidates receive accurate information.

  145. MouseCopper*

    Managers – please check if I am being reasonable!!!

    TL;DR:
    My pay was cut significantly the day before I started in a promotion. My managers fought and failed to get me more money. I kicked but at this role, so I am expecting a high score and thus a sizable raise despite being here only 5 months. Is this a reasonable expectation?

    Long Version:
    I was promoted internally after working for a year at the company. It was a significant promotion, and I was offered a sizable raise. The day before I started I was informed there was an HR mis calculation, and they cut my pay $15,000. Yes. Three 0’s. I was pretty livid!

    Regardless I am still in this role (not up for debating this right now) and I have excelled at it. I have so many accomplishments in the short 5 months I’ve been here! I’ve already brought in over a quarter million in additional revenue for this team. : }

    Because of my great performance, coupled with the fact that my pay was cut drastically, I am expecting to get the highest performance rating. I even rated myself as a 5, even though I know that typically 5’s are rare and are usually for star performers who have been their several years. I expect to get a 5 though.

    Is this a reasonable expectation? I ask because I don’t want to rage quit if they give me an “average” and cite “not long tenure” on me. But managers, what would you do in this situation?

    1. fposte*

      Just to be clear–do you mean you’re making $15k less than the salary the role initially was supposed to have, or $15k less than you were making in the pre-promotion role?

      Either way I think that’s an exception to the usual “it’s too early” rule–I might even frame this as revisiting the salary for the position rather than asking for a raise. But if you’re actually making $15k less than you got pre-promotion, I think “reasonable” flies out the window.

    2. neverjaunty*

      I don’t think you need to “rage quit”, but I do think you should quietly have a Plan B (i.e., job hunting) underway.

      This is a company that pulled a really crappy and significant bait and switch on you in order to pay you less. (“HR miscalculation”? Come on now.) Why on earth would they have a sudden change of heart and decide to pay you the appropriate amount after all? Because you rate yourself highly? They have a vested interest in disagreeing with your rating.

      1. MouseCopper*

        By rage quit I meant actively look for other roles. My managers did try to get the other salary that was originally offered. I am thinking that, if I were in their shoes, and I meant what I said about MouseCopper deserving more, I would give them a really high performance review to help boost them up the range.

        Here raises are based off of performance score, so HR wouldn’t be able to tell them “No, MouseCopper only gets a 4% raise not a 10% raise” unless they forced my manager to give me a lower rating. Which I doubt would happen.

        Make sense?

        1. neverjaunty*

          Sure. But you already know that they pulled $15K of an agreed-upon salary at the last minute because of an “error”. And they have, at a minimum, a $15K incentive to give you a lower rating.

  146. AnonCat*

    I have a question about women’s interview attire. I am applying to a university and was thinking about wearing black sheer pantyhose. I read online somewhere that women should stick to sheer or nude colored hosiery. Thoughts?

    1. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

      I don’t believe in wearing pantyhose at all anymore. I am in a conservative field (law) and I work at a conservative firm and I just interviewed for a very conservative job. I didn’t ever wear pantyhose and will never! The only time I would wear tights is in the winter if I’m cold. I think this is one of those old conventions you can and should just skip :)

    2. fposte*

      Unless you’re at a really conservative and probably southern school, black sheer pantyhose are fine. I don’t think there are many places people wear nude hose these days.

      1. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

        fposte, you are a commenter that I respect greatly. I’m just curious what your opinion is generally on hose. I really do work at a very, old conservative law firm and a lot of people would think wearing pantyhose was odd at this point. There are some older generation folks who wouldn’t think it to be odd, but for the most part, no one would judge an applicant for failing to wear hose. Do you have a different opinion/experience?

        1. fposte*

          I think that’s more respect than I deserve here :-). I’m speaking based on the very occasional commenter here who reports in on being expected to wear hose, so I don’t want to swear that it doesn’t exist. I do hear law as being one of the most conservative on this topic, especially in the south, so you’re quite likely to know before I will if it’s been completely eradicated.

          1. fposte*

            Well, and there’s just a report in from insurance, below. Interestingly I worked in insurance 25 years ago and *didn’t* wear hose, so the world remains just too variable to predict.

    3. Camellia*

      I worked at a large (27 states) insurance firm for many years and the HR department (all women) said flat out that they would never hire a woman who wasn’t wearing hose with her skirt/dress. To me this was just one more argument for wearing slacks. :)

      I do think that sheer black hose can still be considered more of an ‘after 5’ look. In any case, if you plan on wearing hose, why take a chance? Just go with a nude shade.

      1. zora.dee*

        Wow, I’m glad I’ve never tried to work in insurance, because I don’t wear nude hose, but my extreme pear shape does not play well with pants at all.

        I wear opaque tights for interviews or other important events, because I don’t shave my legs and I don’t want that to be an issue. But I would go bare-legged if that wasn’t the case. (I really wish we could just let women wear what they want on their legs though, ugh)

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          I work at an insurance company – many women don’t wear pantyhose or tights (I do because I like them and hate my legs). My mother also works at an insurance company, and they’re required to wear stockings or tights if they wear skirts or dresses. It really depends on the company.

    4. Turanga Leela*

      I think you can wear black sheer pantyhose with dark shoes, particularly in the winter. I usually would not wear black stockings to work, but I don’t think most people will judge you for them. Just don’t wear them with light-colored shoes, where they will be very noticeable.

      That said, I love beige pantyhose. I have very pale legs, to the point where they are distractingly white, and beige stockings make my legs much more natural. People don’t seem to notice that I’m wearing them, and they are easier than using self-tanner. If your office is overly air-conditioned, they also help keep you warm. I don’t think they look old or dated unless you wear open-toed shoes with them (just don’t) or you wear a pair that is really obvious in some way—baggy, shiny, or much darker than your skin.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        Should say, “make my legs LOOK much more natural.” My legs are, in fact, natural without any help.

    6. Observer*

      Sheer can be any color, so I’m not sure what you mean.

      In any case, black is fine, as long as it’s not fishnet or the like, in most fields.

  147. MadGrad*

    So I’m in a well respected grad school in a business-related program that’s been giving some… Interesting advice. For one, we had a speaker come in who advised us not to ask about salary in an interview. Me being the skeptical AAM reader I am, I ask how many interviews deep she means we should wait before we bring it up at all.

    SHE MEANT NEVER. At no stage in the interview process did she want to hear about salary (the usual “you just care about the money” excuse came up). It is apparently a giant red flag for her and she expects you to just wait to ask at all until an offer is made.

    I get that some people like me are fresh out of undergrad with prior experience, but… What? What about the people who have worked, or when I start looking for my second job? I mentioned this to my classmates and they looked at me like I’d grown a second head, but come on.

    For the record, I’m not in something as conservative as, say, accounting. Am I nuts?

    1. Adam V*

      This feels like a slightly outdated mentality, but a fairly standard one. It’s like “the interview is all about ‘is this a fit for both of us’, and you’ll sully it by talking about something so crude as *money*”. But I don’t think it serves anyone’s purpose when you think “this is going great!” and then they make you an offer that’s almost insultingly low. At worst, both sides walk away thinking “this person has absolutely no idea about the market value of this position”, and at best, you now have to have that long “crude” money discussion anyway!

      Or is she basically saying “I expect people who work for me to take whatever I offer and I’m turned off by anyone who negotiates” ?

      1. MadGrad*

        I read it as being offended that you’d even ask. She later mentioned that, coming from a large company with little wiggle room, she wouldn’t be negotiating anyway. Which, in that case, wouldn’t I want to know beforehand all the more??

        I get that it’s pretty normal, but the ideology behind this mentality is so offensive. As if the hiring manager works for passion alone and I’m some shady character trying to cheat my way into their money.

    2. Dawn*

      I think it reads as pretty gauche if someone asks in the first 10 minutes of the initial phone screen “Hey yeah so how much money would I make at this position?” but it is ABSOLUTELY OK to, towards the end of the initial phone screen or the first interview if it’s gone well and you’d want to move forward, to say something like “Can you let me know the salary range for this position to make sure it’s a mutually good fit?” or however it is that AAM has said to phrase it.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        In my last phone screen, it was the recruiter who brought up salary first. She asked what range I had in mind, I gave her one based on the extensive research I’d done about the position and market rates, and she told me that was exactly the range they had for the role (and it was a fairly high range given had no experience with one of the major tools they used and very little direct experience with the job function itself). And the job I ended up taking over this one was essentially decided over a lunch where the hiring manager’s boss brought up salary first. I’ve now been conditioned to discuss these things up-front, so any company that bristles at my asking will be a big Nope for me.

  148. Anxa*

    I’ve asked a similar question here before, but the context has changed a bit.

    My degrees are in science related fields (B.S. biology, A.S. biotech, Cert-public health), but my work experience is mostly in student services. I work part-time as a science tutor and need a full-time job. I’m looking at starting a career in both science and higher ed, but I know I may need to just pick a side for now (which a whole other post).

    Many of the full-time jobs for entry and near-entry level positions ask for degrees in psychology, counseling, communications, business or “related.”

    I know biology isn’t really in the scope of a related degree, but how big of a stretch is it? I’ve taking courses in general psychology, developmental psych, physio of psych, and psych pharmacology. Of course there’s the typical gen eds, and I’ve taken other English and communications courses (although one was for technical writing). I’ve gone through training programs for education programs for preschoolers, middle-schoolers, and college-students, although don’t have any formal education in education. I’ve worked in several positions with counseling components, communications components, etc.

    A lot of my other coursework is completely unrelated, though, and makes it obvious that I have at one point and continue still to have an interest in science. If I could get a start down this road, there are many ways down the line to merge these interests together (Health and safety professional, lab manager, science curriculum advisors, STEM outreach positions, etc). It probably looks pretty bad that I spent (maybe wasted?) time learning to do things completely unrelated like tissue culture, genome editing, modeling, genome sequence analysis, etc.

    I worry about looking daft and blowing my chances down the road with this employer if something else opens up which more closely matches my qualifications. But I have experience with about 90% of the job responsibilities and feel 100% that I could do the job (well, as far as you can ever be confident until you interview or start, but I feel like this is right in my wheelhouse).

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed. You’re totally fine. Many of my colleagues have science degrees. A very well-respected guy in my office has his in biotechnology, actually.

      The perfect job for you would ideally involve the sciences, though. So think academic advising, career advising, etc. within STEM colleges/programs.

      Good luck! You sound like a wonderful candidate! I know the nursing school at my institution would be happy to have you!

      1. Anxa*

        I work with so many nursing students and allied health students right now. Having not been in a clinical field, there would be a lot for me to learn about nursing programs (I stick with foundation courses right now), but I do think that having been in a science program, I am really attuned to understanding how important it is to consider prerequisites and scheduling issues to any sort of advisement.

        1. vpc*

          The biology background will be an asset with nursing and allied health students, because yes, you understand the required progression of courses and not just “take these in any order”. Like, a nursing student couldn’t take biochem before taking chemistry.

          Also – there may be a way to leverage your cert in public health, depending on the coursework associated with it. A lot of public health is behavioral science and understanding why people make the health-related choices they do, so you could probably tie that to psychology pretty easily.

          (fair disclosure: my BS is a double in biology and psych, and I have a master’s in public health)

    2. Awkward Interviewee*

      I also work in higher ed. I think whether your degree specialization matters really varies based on the the individual job and preferences of the hiring committee. I have science degrees, yet work in academic advising. My institution doesn’t really seem to care about the subject area of their advisors’ degrees. I think some universities care more and probably do want advisors with more formal education in education. I think with your background you could be very marketable for something like a STEM outreach position. I actually think what may hold you back more as you try to advance is lack of a masters degree – it seems like many positions in higher ed want a masters, even if it’s not directly related to what you’re doing. At my institution, academic advising jobs generally require a masters degree, but the masters can be unrelated to education, counseling, psych, etc. It seems weird, but that’s just how it is. (I’m job searching now, and most of the advising postings I’m finding say bachelor’s required, masters preferred. I would be surprised if many people without masters get interviews.) The good news is, if you work at a university, you should be able use their tuition benefit to cheaply work on a masters on a part time basis in the future when you get to a point where you want to move up.

  149. The Mighty Thor*

    I have a story from my workplace I’d like people’s thoughts on:

    This week, the accounts payable supervisor sent out a company-wide email stating that detailed receipts must be attached to expense reports or else they would be denied.

    In this email, she provided photos of both a detailed and non detailed receipt as example. In the example of a detailed receipt, several line items are clearly craft beers. Large servings at that (22oz).

    I heard through the grapevine that she caught some heat for this, and was pulled into a meeting with the controller (her direct supervisor) and the vice chairman of the company.

    We’re a b2b company selling chocolate teapots to distributors, so it’s possible that this was taking a client out. I find it unlikely though, because the receipt is from near our corporate HQ and we rarely have customers at our HQ (where I work out of).

    This doesn’t directly affect me, so I’m mainly just looking for opinions.

    1. animaniactoo*

      At a minimum, if this was a valid expense, it was a poor example to have used to illustrate her point. Surely she had others available?

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      It might be that they’re making a mountain out of a molehill–unless it’s a tee-totaling or government contracted company, what is the deal? Is the issue merely that the concept of beer was acknowledged in a company-wide email? Was it the size of the beers? Was it the insinuation that the receipt was from the AP supervisor themselves? Was it that she shared a receipt other people had wanted to keep private? Or was it that she sent the email to the entire company?

      Regardless, it sounds like Capricious Drama best kept out.

      1. Preux*

        I’m guessing the issue was that the receipt implies that an employee or multiple employees claimed happy hour as an expense. In other words, she signed off on the company reimbursing someone for their non-work-related night out. That’s if I’m understanding the comment correctly.

      2. Drew*

        My company occasionally picks up dinner for employees who are working an event, but explicitly says they won’t pay for booze; we’re expected to buy our own drinks or stick to soft drinks. We also have an absolute ban on drinking on the premises, on or off the clock, and drinking on the clock even when we’re away from work is almost always banned. Senior employees get some latitude when taking third parties to dinner, which makes sense: none of us wants to be telling teapot buyers or other business partners that they have to pay for their own beer.

        Our boss is definitely not a teetotaler; I think he’s just overly cautious and would rather draw a hard “no booze” line than be stuck judging when employees have gone over the line with a six-martini lunch or whatever.

    3. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      It’s either an approved event or it’s not but the part where it is craft beers or the part where it is large craft beers wouldn’t be a thing in our world, either as the payee or the recipient.

      I’m not sure I understand the question fully because accounting was using that receipt as an example of doing things correctly, yes? Accounting should have thought through the next step. Sending that detailed receipt as an example of good has clearly led to people who have nothing to do with it speculating about the salesperson who submitted it,

    4. zora.dee*

      Or, what if the Accounting supervisor just pulled out some random receipts from her own wallet to find a good example, and it had nothing to do with an expensed receipt? Why is everyone assuming it was a receipt she had submitted for reimbursement?

      This seems weird for everyone to be in such a kerfuffle about. But she probably should have thought it through a little more about what receipt she was using and whether it was a good example. But yeesh, getting called in to the “principal’s office.” Ouch.

      Of course, I currently work at a place that has food-related business and everyone is a foodie, so it is perfectly acceptable for our people to submit receipts with good wine or other alcohol on them. Here, I don’t think this would have batted an eye at all.

    5. Construction Safety*

      I’m also wondering if the A/P Supervisor had the authority to dictate the change and the consequences. Most places I’ve worked for just required the individual’s supervisor to approve the expense account for it to be paid.

  150. Vesperia*

    I got laid off a couple weeks ago, and this thing has been really bothering me. It was something the owner of the company said to me while he was telling me I got laid off – “you took more vacation than we usually give people last year.” I was out for scheduled surgery, which was supposed to be outpatient or overnight, but I had complications that kept me in the hospital for 5 days, and I had to have extra time at home since I could barely walk (and I walked to work!!). I only had about 3 unpaid days by the end of the year. It really bothered me that he said that because we regularly had people taking 3 weeks of vacation in a row to go and visit family in their home countries and the company technically only gives 2 weeks…

    Anyway I just wanted to vent a little haha. I’ve been joking that it was a great time to get laid off (right before a planned vacation and then two weddings where I’m a bridesmaid!) but this has been circling my mind and I didn’t really know who would be appropriate to tell. Internet strangers are always a good option, right? :P

    1. animaniactoo*

      Question: Does the owner of the company know why you were out, or did he only have a folder in front of him saying “out for 24 days”?

      I mean, in either situation, it would have been nice to be able to say back “Well the majority of it actually wasn’t vacation – I was out for medical reasons.” just to have that nice tap on your own head that you corrected the record. Because it wasn’t going to change anything at that point, but it often feels better to know that people have the correct info about you. Any chance not thinking to say this is part of why it’s still getting to you?

      Any possibility of reaching out to whatever HR exists or whoever you might get a reference from, and saying “This came up at my exit, and I wanted to make sure for reference purposes that this is clear on your end. Does my file only indicate the number of PTO days I had, or does it make clear that I had an unexpected medical issue?”

      1. Vesperia*

        My manager knew exactly what my plans were and as soon as I was off the drugs enough to send a coherent message to him, I informed him that I had complications and needed a few more days. The owner of the company definitely knew I had surgery, since he’d mentioned it in passing multiple times before and after my surgery, and I know my manager let people know why I wasn’t back yet since I had people who didn’t even know I was out for surgery asking about how I was recovering.

        I’ll be using my manager as a reference, since I worked directly with him! He knows what was up. It’s a pretty small company so there’s no HR department and I don’t think the records are so organized anyway… There were a lot of issues there and I was looking to leave anyway, but they got the jump on me.

        1. animaniactoo*

          So not worth worrying about then – focus on the benefits of having a good “wtf?” story. ;)

  151. Coffee Ninja*

    Hi all! I started a new job a couple weeks ago & I need some feedback on my benefits package, specifically the 403(b). I’ve never had options before (it’s usually take-it-or-leave-it). My employer is offering me the choice of TIAA-CREF or Vanguard. Any advice? I’m going to do some info gathering but I know less than zero about this stuff so I appreciate anything you can share!

    1. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

      Both good as far as I know! I have a 401k with Vanguard and I like them a lot and have gotten a good return. I know people with TIAA-CREF who are happy with it.

    2. fposte*

      They’re both good, and many people would kill to have those options. Vanguard is better (that is, cheaper) for index funds, but TIAA has the marvelous TIAA Traditional Fund, which is basically like a great bond fund. It’s the one exception to the “if you can’t explain it, don’t invest in it,” because it’s complicated–when and how you can take it out depends on the contract with your employer, and how much you make depends on when you put your money in.

    3. Lizabeth*

      As to talk to whomever advises the employees about the 403(b). Each one should have a rep and see what they have to say. You may have time to research.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I was very pleased with TIAA-CREF with my previous employment. I didn’t actually stay there long enough to take advantage of it, but it seemed like the better option.

  152. bureaucrat#3*

    I can’t decide whether or not to submit my application for a really cool developmental opportunity within my company. The job sounds amazing, is extremely prestigious and reports directly to the CEO, so there’s no guarantee I’d even get an interview anyway, but I’m really enjoying the work I’m doing now and I’m leading some important projects that would be disrupted if I left. But then again, an opportunity like this might not come up again. Really not sure what to do.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Can you talk to your boss about whether that would be a good step? If your boss is good, that’s where I’d start!

    2. Dynamic Beige*

      Is submitting an application for this thing going to get you fired from your current position?

      As Leatherwings says, you could ask your boss. There is, after all that whole “it’s easier to get forgiveness than permission” thing that sometimes happens. Your boss could dissuade you because they don’t want you to go, or they might have some very valuable inside information about the role that would mean you don’t really want it. Or you could just apply and see what happens. They may never even contact you about it.

  153. Sparkly Librarian*

    Facebook reminded me that 5 years ago this week I started grad school. I was working in an unrelated industry, was unmarried, was living in a tiny apartment… and now everything is different. Despite a reeeeeallly long hiring wait, I’ve been a librarian for a year and a half now. If I’d had a 5-year plan then, I would have aced just about everything on it. It seems so long ago! But simultaneously, “5 years” doesn’t seem like a very long time.

    Anyone actually do the 5-year plan? What are some of the big things on yours? How’s it going?

    1. Manders*

      I also didn’t do a 5 year plan. If I did, here’s where I am about 5 years out of college:

      1) I had expected to have published more fiction by this point in my life. That has more to do with my unrealistic expectations coming out of undergrad than any lack of effort on my part.

      2) I expected a more spacious living situation because I didn’t think the city I was moving to would change so much. I love Seattle but it has changed so much in the last 5 years that my standard of living has gone downhill even as my household’s income rises.

      3) I didn’t expect to be considering turning my long-term relationship into a marriage yet, but I’m getting married in December. It turns out that those tax and insurance benefits that seemed like no big deal at 22 are a huge deal at 27.

      4) I finally got a non-administrative job I really like in a field I would never have thought I’d go into when I was just leaving college. My alma mater really pushed the idea of “dream jobs” and “refusing to sell out,” but I also graduated in the middle of the recession and had limited savings in an expensive city, so I compromised on my dreams pretty quickly and ended up taking a meandering path to a field I enjoy but never formally studied.

      1. PowerBall*

        I left Seattle 4 years ago and it’s basically unrecognizable now. Part of me wants to go back (all my friends are there! it’s the most beautiful city ever!) but I know I wouldn’t be able to afford anywhere near the lifestyle I had — and I was an underemployed barista at the time!

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        When I was first expected to be planning that way (late teens/early twenties), my problem was that too MUCH changed without my input. I had so much anxiety just about the idea of making a 5-year plan because it underscored how little idea I had about where my life was going. In hindsight… I think that’s a reasonable response to the decade where many of us do the most changing and growing.

        1. Manders*

          Oh yeah, my life looks nothing like the plans I made when I was still in high school/early college. Some of that was me growing and changing (and learning some hard truths about life), some of that was so far beyond my control I could never even have seen it coming.

    3. Torrance*

      I have a 5-year plan that I’m working on. The primary goal is to go into teaching, specifically teaching ESL overseas. Almost all of the smaller goals are focused on helping me integrate into society better (the country I want to work in is very image-conscious, which means losing a significant amount of weight, as well as fixing other issues with my general appearance; plus one of the biggest complaints about ESL teachers in that country is that they don’t take the time to learn the language so I’m working hard on obtaining fluency) or preparing me to move abroad (sorting through everything I own, using ‘do I like it? is it useful? would I take it with me?’ as the threshold for keeping).

      I’m 99% sure that all my work will be for nothing– there are factors I can’t control & bureaucracy I will be unable to bypass– but I’d rather look back in five years and now that I did everything right and the failure of my life to turn out the way I’d hoped was not my fault. The world will still kick me in the teeth but I won’t be a willing victim.

  154. CS*

    I am starting a new job next month. I will be working in a foreign branch of the organization. From time to time, I will have to contact colleagues in other time zones. I’ve never worked in this kind of environment before and I am unsure of business protocol on this kind of situation. If I need to contact a colleague in another time zone within their business hours, is it best to contact by phone or email? Also, I’m assuming if it is outside of their business hours, then I would need to send an email(?) or would I leave a voicemail message? I’m assuming it would depend on the reason for the call.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I would think this is more of a company culture/personal relationship type thing rather than a norm. I would navigate carefully for the first couple weeks, and ask your manager and/or the colleagues you may need to contact what they would prefer. Nobody will judge you for asking!

  155. Lizabeth*

    A rant and a vent…

    Starting to serious job hunt and since it’s been 10 years since I’ve done that can I say that the Internet makes putting job applications in really sucky? I put in an application yesterday morning for something that I’m qualified to do BUT couldn’t rock it because there was no way to put a cover letter in with the application. AND got a thanks but no thanks email 20 minutes later. Sigh…

    Is no one interested in a cover letter anymore and why? I include it when I can but what should I be changing on the resume if a cover letter isn’t an option?

    My vent: my employer sucks big time. I put off a colonoscopy (TMI I know…) until next year because of the way things are going (bouncing checks to vendors among other things…) because I didn’t trust them to pay the insurance premiums. Guess what? I was right, they weren’t paying…BCBS threatened to drop us unless they are made current and somehow they “found” the money to pay it. It explains why we got a coverage letter from BCBS last month that we were told to ignore because it was a “mistake”. These people are finding that karma will bite you on the ass (not that they are paying attention). When I give my notice the email/letter is going to be a masterpiece since I can’t trash them in interviews. Sorry for the slightly BEC but I’m pissed.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Ughh I hope you find something soon. When I’m using online systems that don’t give you a spot for a cover letter, I put both in one document and upload that. I have never submitted an application without a cover letter (non-profit person here) and they’re always required in my line of work.

      1. copy run start*

        This is what I’ve done when I couldn’t find a way. And sometimes gives you more points if it’s an ATS system that scores applications by keyword.

  156. So Very Anonymous*

    Followup on my question last week about private university wanting me to do cost-of-living calculations etc. in order to name a salary range prior to an onsite interview. They told me that they did have a range, but they wouldn’t share with me what it was. To make a long story short, I got a lot of helpful advice and worked up a reasonable salary range, which I conveyed … and then was told that my candidacy is now “on hold” because I asked for too much. (I asked for the amount I would be making now if my current job hadn’t had a salary freeze for several years. I did not ask for the moon!). No second interview unless the candidates who gave lower figures don’t work out.

    I’m mid-level, this position can be hired for at the entry level or at the mid-level, and I shouldn’t be taking an entry-level salary at this stage of my career. It wasn’t clear from the screener what level they wanted to hire at, and that was something I expected to learn more about at the next level. The rationale was that they don’t want to bring someone in who’d be bitter about having taken a pay cut. And I totally understand that. But I would really have appreciated some information about their expected range, because this felt a little like “guess what we’re willing to pay you! …. wrong! bye!”

    Also was a little freaked out at the idea of negotiating salary after a twenty-minute screener interview — in this case I really needed the second interview to determine fit (a second, day-long interview is standard for my field). So I guess I’m OK with moving on, just somewhat taken aback.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Honestly, this was a good outcome. You’re looking for what’s *right* for you based on what your work is worth – and you did the research to adjust it for the area. If they’d given you a range and it was way lower than you were looking for, you’d have the same outcome, except you wouldn’t have done the research. The research is valuable to you in other interviews and being aware of what you need in order to accept an offer.

      So here – you named your price, they flinched, and you’re not flying out somewhere to interview for a job that you wouldn’t want to take at the salary they’re prepared to hire for (at this time). Which would be a much larger waste of your time (theirs too, but let’s focus on you here ;) ).

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Thanks for the supportive framing! And oh, yes, intellectually I definitely am fine with the outcome. I think what threw me more is that I’ve been looking for a new job for a LONG time now in a very, very bad market, and it’s my first time knowing that I am now mid-level and should be paid accordingly. I have a deeper worry that I’m now priced out of other jobs and will be too expensive for anyone to hire, which this experience… shall we say… touched on ;) It was the first time I’d gotten past first-round interviews for an embarrassingly long time, and so it’s been difficult this week not to give in to the fear that I’m not getting anywhere because I’m too expensive.

        And you know, the reason I really wished they’d posted the range was more because I could have done without the utterly surreal moment on the phone when I realized that the interview offer was being taken back. The gut feeling was so much “oh God, I screwed this up,” when no, really, I didn’t, and yes, I have thoughts about salary appropriateness now (and also know that I have people who give good advice on such things!)

      2. Awkward Interviewee*

        I don’t really have much to add except to say oh that sounds frustrating! I’m sorry this one didn’t work out.

  157. Sandy*

    I have a question! I am an assistant to a manager who was recently hired. He is trying to make a name for himself, takes credit for things I do and takes my ideas and presents them as his own. He also has a hard time delegating. I really don’t know what to do, any help?

    1. helloitsme*

      I had a manager that did this. I don’t really have any good advice though. The girl I know that ended up doing well at the company despite that would kind of just pretend like it wasn’t happening, and feel confident in the work that she was doing when she talked about it. She wasn’t defensive about it. She just focused on herself and her work and her relationship with the other employees and the VP. I think it didn’t matter as much that the manager tried to take credit for everything because everyone thought she was great anyway. Eventually she left the job anyway though.

  158. jenc*

    You guys! I have gone from a project manager to a people (and project manager). I am so excited. My boss announced the reorganization today. I am now one of three supervisors in our department. I was expecting Fergus to be angry and resentful. He wasn’t, which was great. However, Jane is apparently unhappy about it and told my boss and me that she doesnt agree with the reorganization immediately after the meeting where the reorganization was announced. This is her first job; she has been here less than a year so I dont think she thought she should have my position. My boss handled it well and told her that he is excited about it, it will make our department stronger and that he is standing behind his decision. Should I also say something to her about it? I thought I had a good relationship with Jane and we worked well together.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I think I would. But more in a category of “I understand that you’re not happy about the reorganization. What are your concerns about it?” and being able to see about addressing specific concerns, even if they’re just peace-of-mind kind of things. Also to be able to ask her to give the benefit of the doubt and see how this reorg works. Change – any change – can be very unsettling for some people. Maybe she’s one of them. And doing this gives her the first space to see how you’re going to be to work under.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I wouldn’t right away, honestly. I would meet with her one-on-one soon and lay out some working styles and your vision for where the project/department is going to go. You can ask if she has any questions or concerns you can address, and if she doesn’t then assume her conversation with your boss did the trick. Sometimes these things just take people by surprise, and she needed a bit to adjust to it. Don’t make it A Thing unless she does :)

    3. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      I wouldn’t say anything to her at this point. When you’re a very new manager, people are looking for any sign of weakness. They don’t even know they’re doing it, but they are. If you go talk to her to try to get her buy-in, you’re sending a signal that you’re not confident or in control in your new position. Honestly, you’re going to have to be a little aloof like that for the first few weeks until they’ve kind of accepted things, then you can start relaxing.

    4. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      I wouldn’t. Show, don’t tell.

      People have all kinds of feelings and apprehension toward change. Jane had them, your boss addressed them, and now you go about and do the great job you’re going to do and see, Jane sees that change wasn’t so bad after all.

  159. Gobbledygook*

    I had a phone interview today for a job in another state (I’ve been trying to relocate for a year). It was short, but went well. I just received an email to come in for an in person interview this coming Monday, Wednesday, or Thursday! Now I’m panicking because I’ll be footing the bill for this and I’m seriously questioning whether they read my resume or cover letter at all.

    I also have a few “tests” to do before then as well. Since it’s Friday, do you think it’s acceptable to wait for “test” results to see if I’m a serious candidate before booking a plane ticket?

    1. CS*

      why don’t you book the appointment for the Thursday interview? If you wait any later, you could be paying more for airfare and hotel. i mean, why would you second guess their decision to call you in? What if they did take your resume seriously and this turns out to be a good job? You would lose out on a good opportunity. you don’t know when the next opportunity will come. What if it’s another year?

  160. Beth Anne*

    Does anyone have any advice for what you should do when you feel your job should pay $xyz but no one wants to pay that? Like for my job (i’m a bookkeeper) people and industry reports say I should make at least $15-$20/hour but all the job postings are for like $10-$12.

    1. Leatherwings*

      If all the job postings you’re looking at list that range, I’d consider that the industry reports aren’t specific enough to the job you’re applying to, or aren’t applicable to your geographic area. There will always be a couple of employers paying below market rate, but if all or even most of the employers in the area are paying below what you think is market rate, it’s more likely that your calculations need a bit of rethinking.

      1. Beth Anne*

        Right and I think what is hurting me more than anything is that 90% of these job postings are for temp/staffing agencies so I know those jobs the company is really paying twice as much for those employees.

        I’ve really been thinking about just going out on my own as a self-employed bookkeeper and charging fixed or hourly rates much higher than what I can make as an employee. I’ve talked to a lot of people that do that are doing that and one of the reasons they end up going that route is because employers don’t pay what they feel they are worth.

    3. Office Plant*

      There could be higher paying jobs posted in places where you aren’t looking. Or not posted but just advertised through word of mouth. Can you connect with other bookkeepers in your area and find out how they got their jobs?

  161. Bowserkitty*

    It’s finally my last day. My colleagues ordered pizza and donuts and when I get back to my office we’re having cake. (@_@)

    Today is bittersweet. I’m going to miss a lot of these folks, but ever since they told me it wasn’t working out two and a half weeks ago I feel like I’ve been a pointless zombie around the office. Or if anyone has ever seen Dead Like Me, I feel like somebody forgot to touch my shoulder after they got my post-it note. Like I’m hanging around and I shouldn’t be.

    And even my one boss, while nice today, hit me completely out of left field earlier this week when I had doctor appointments. I had told her the previous week and put in the official system request and she still tried calling to chew me out for not being here, claiming I didn’t tell anybody where I was going (which wasn’t true). I remember thinking “why are you acting like I’m still essential to this department? my insurance is running out soon thanks in part to you, let me get these things taken care of in peace.”

      1. Bowserkitty*

        I do not, but I have a handful of apps in with my same company so I’m hoping they’ll see them soon. It’s been a nice past few days honestly, I needed it.

  162. Berry*

    I got a phone call this morning for an interview for a position I applied for a month ago! I had nearly forgotten about it but now I’m a bit excited. The only issue is that they left me a voicemail because I missed their call, and when I called back an hour later I left them a voicemail, and now I’m sitting on my hands hoping they call me back because I know that calling again would be a very bad again (I’ve seen enough bad applicant letters!).

    I’m just nervous! They wanted to do something for early next week and I hope that they haven’t already gone home for the weekend (I called them back just before noon).

  163. AFRC*

    I can’t believe I am posting about this nonsense, but here goes: some of my coworkers do a training with a CPR dummy that is seriously creepy. (it’s just the head and chest) They thought it would be HILARIOUS to freak out my worker and me and sneak him up on us. They did it to my coworker first, so I had a little warning, but we both scare easily, and I was still really startled. I laughed it off, but if they do it to me again, I will not be a very happy camper. My reaction would not be as severe as this one: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/10/my-boss-is-furious-after-my-coworker-pranked-her-the-deal-with-hustle-and-more.html#comments, but I might get pretty pissed off. And I don’t want to have to make a scene in our office.

    Now they want to do it to our team manager, who is on vacation and back on Monday. I don’t think she’ll like it very much. It’s childish to be pulling pranks, and embarrassing when you’re the one being scared. But I have no authority over them, and they seemed not to care that I thought it was an incredibly bad idea to scare our manager, and when I said that I didn’t like it.

    I’m going to send an email to my manager, who will likely see it before Monday, but I was also thinking about hiding the dummy in my desk drawer. This is so unbearably stupid that I even have to be thinking about this. Any advice is appreciated.

    1. AFRC*

      Update: the dummy is in my desk drawer. I left a note for the person who had him, basically saying that they can have it back if they promise not to prank anyone. I feel like I’m the Romper Room monitor. Sigh….

    2. Anon for this*

      Duuude this would freak me out. I’ve been stalked before, and finding human-like things hidden around me or sneaking up on me is very much not welcome. Maybe you could just point that out to the prankers? You never know someone elses’ experience, and scary pranks affect people who have experienced trauma more than others.
      I would also be pretty pissed off, and I would probably make a scene. It’s really nice of you to send an email to your manager, and I would also hide the dummy just to spare others.

      1. AFRC*

        Thank you – it all was resolved this morning without incident. The coworker who had the dummy said it was just because they had a long day on Friday and were in a pretty goofy mood. Hopefully they have the good sense not to repeat it.

    3. Hmm*

      For another perspective- I actually wouldn’t mind someone pranking me at all/would find it funny, and it’d seem a bit odd to me that you’d be emailing your manager warning her about it, and if I were your manager and you’d emailed me about it I’d find it strange. Unless you know for a fact that she hates pranks, and that she’d find this unprofessional? I wouldn’t hold it against you or anything but I’d feel like you were overreacting if you warned me I was going to be pranked. Now, it’s perfectly fine for you to tell them you don’t like being pranked/not to do it again, and if they did do it again to you, to tell your manager about it, but I don’t know that I’d recommend emailing your manager to be like “hey my coworkers are planning on pranking you?”

      1. AFRC*

        Thank you very much for the honest feedback! The emailing her was not to tattle – just to warn her because I get here later than her and my coworkers in the morning, and I was afraid they would do it do her before I got here and cause a major problem (this is also her first day back from vacation, and we are super busy). I may have been overreacting, but we work in a cube farm and have already been warned about the excessive noise our team makes. So I was trying to prevent something. The coworker who was storing the dummy said they were just in a goofy mood on Friday, and I’m pretty sure they aren’t going to try anything. This group tends not to be the most hard-working group on our team, so I was also highly annoyed that they tend to slack in other areas, while I’m working really hard, but they still found time to goof off. I was not having it on Friday, but it appears that the situation is resolved.

  164. Anonyby*

    Sort-of work related!

    Did my civic duty (jury service) for the first time on Monday. I’m really really glad I wasn’t picked–civil court, but it was related to an awful event. As in, the guy at the criminal case pled guilty, and I suspect he’s separated from the rest of the inmates for his own safety because it’s that bad. Well, this trial was against his then-employer for negligence since it happened while he was on the clock. Luckily they just needed three more alternates and once they had those they were done and the rest of us could go.

    I don’t think I would have been kept anyways–I would have pled hardship due to the estimated length of the trial. And if not that, well, I likely know one of the potential witnesses and the cause for the trial itself touches on one of my soapbox issues so no way could I be unbiased. (And I went in that day ready to stick it out if I got chosen and say that I was unbiased.)

    And I’ve been miserable this week–I mentioned in last weekend’s open thread that my knees have been bothering me. Well, the courtroom we were led to was in the old courthouse (tall, steep steps are the only way in/out), in the top (3rd, by way of US counting) floor. I did not know that when I started following the other jurors… and so had to climb up ALL of the steps on the way up on knees that are not good for stairs right now. Not to mention the courthouse is downtown, so public parking a couple blocks from the courthouse, and having to walk a couple blocks each way to get to/from lunch. Bleh.

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      I wonder how many potential jurors have to plead hardship because of disability due to those steps. Like, if you can’t even get in the door to report for jury duty… :/

      1. Anonyby*

        Well, they’re finishing construction on a new courthouse that’s MUCH more disability-friendly. The current one was built in the late 1800s, though it’s been refurbished since then. (There’s an indoor elevator that I didn’t see the first time going up–I used it every other time I needed to get between floors, either because we were sent to the lobby for a short break, or we were sent out for lunch.)

  165. Say What?*

    Has anyone ever misheard something on the phone at work, and have that lead to a confusing/frustrating conversation until you realize that hey, they said *this* instead of *that*? Ugh, this happened to me a few days ago, and I still feel embarrassed by it. I misheard someone’s name (think Deb and Beb), which lead to me wondering why in the world Beb is requesting X when she has access to it from someone on her own team. It took a minute of confused (she started getting frustrated) conversation before I realized it was Deb. No harm done, but still…

  166. Dave*

    Late to the party with this last one but WOOHOO! I just found out I have an interview on Thursday for a job I really, really want. And I know the guy interviewing me–he used to work in the same department I did. We only overlapped a couple of months but we’re friendly enough. I chatted with him about his job (same thing I’d be doing) at a networking thing last month.

  167. kjf0613*

    My husband has a fantastic internship this semester. I have absolute confidence in his abilities and skills to do the work, and he’s enjoying it so far (it started about a week ago). Any suggestions for what I can do to help him (I stay at home with our 1 year old) or general internship tips? Thanks!

    1. Leatherwings*

      My SO taught me a [very difficult] lesson when he was interning: MYOB.
      Seriously, I have a habit of getting indignant on his behalf, or just pushing him to be more confrontational (which I am and he is not), or giving workflow advice. He had a real serious talk with me about backing off, so that is the wisdom I now offer to you :)

      Tell him good luck!

  168. Teapot_University*

    My friend and I work for the same Teapot University, but in different departments. She’s been complaining to me that her coworkers are very lazy and do not work as much as she does and it is demotivating to her. (It is not clear to me if she needs them to do their jobs to do her job.) My perspective is that whether a coworker is making teapots 12 hours a day or goofing off and maybe doing 3 hours of solid work a day, it does not matter to me, as their job performance/teapot output is between them and their supervisor. If I do not require their help with my specific teapots, then what they do is their business. I just need to focus on finishing my teapots. Am I weird here?

    1. CMT*

      I don’t think you’re weird, but I don’t think your friend is weird, either. Different strokes for different folks!

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I don’t think your perspective is weird, but I don’t think your friend’s is either. I know firsthand how demoralizing it can be when you’re paid the same as people who are screwing up and screwing around (my job often includes fixing the work of the screw-ups who are paid the same as me, which can be especially frustrating). I mean, what’s the point of working hard if it’s not going to be recognized, right?

      1. Teapot_University*

        One of the reasons that I’m a bit befuddled by this issue is that at a previous job, I was let go and one reason given was “your coworkers don’t think you work very hard.” However, my teapot production per year actually surpassed theirs. I’m unsure if they were jealous or what their issue was with me an my work (personal issues?) but from my perspective, if you are producing x number of teapots per day/year/whatever, and if you can do it in 5 hours a day, that’s better than 12 hours a day and working weekends. Working smarter > working harder. Now, of course, if you are spending your time fixing your coworkers’ mistakes, that’s annoying. But if you work relatively independently, then to me it doesn’t matter what so and so is doing (or not doing).

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          Oh, I totally get where you’re coming from on this – I think you’ve got a great perspective on doing your thing and letting other people do theirs (that really blows about being let go based on perceptions). I’m in an especially weird position because a solid handful of the people I work with are genuinely bad at what they do both in terms of quality and quantity and that’s just baked into this particular job.

  169. NicoleK*

    I’m late to the forum but hope someone will still respond. Someone in my network encourage me to apply for an open position at her company. Weeks went by and I’m finally contacted for an interview.

    I really believe I am a good fit for the job (job is similar to what I’ve done before, I have significant experience in the field, and etc). I’m very confident that I can do the job, but I don’t want to come off as cocky and arrogant. There may be several internal candidates that I’d be competing against so I need to stand out. Obviously, I don’t want to stand out for the wrong reasons. Suggestions? Tips? Advice?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Practice, Practice, Practice. Review Alison’s interview advice in the archives and download the free interview guide. The way you’ll stand out is by being an excellent candidate which means being very prepared, polite and professional. Boring, but that’s really the way to do it.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. If you are confident and polite and can demonstrate your skills/experience related to job description…practice your answers, answers to likely questions, etc.

        I think that is probably the best way to stand out and make a good impression.

  170. GOG11*

    Late to the party. Folks who have worked out disability accommodations and/or intermittent FML, if you wouldn’t mind sharing about your experience, I’d love to hear about it. I have received accommodations for a less serious condition, but they were mild and ultimately didn’t do much, but my condition went into remission anyways.

    Now, I’ve developed a new condition that is suspected to be an autoimmune disease. So far, I have a diagnosis for one new condition for which JAN (Job Accommodation Network) lists adjustments to help with fatigue and the need for medical treatment during the day, as well as others, but those are the two that relate most to me. Note: the thing I have a diagnosis for can be caused by an autoimmune disease, and other symptoms fit the bill for autoimmune, as well – I see a rheumatologist next week.

    The process is confusing to me (which doesn’t say much considering how tired and foggy I am at the moment), and I’d love to hear about experiences people have had, as well as any tips.

    1. Mimmy*

      Apologies if you’ve already looked, but JAN also has a ton of articles relating to the accommodation process. Here’s a page with links for individuals – you’d want the first section (“Employees”). As I’m sure you can tell, JAN is an excellent resource.

      I have a disability myself (congenital) so you’d think I’d be a natural, but alas, I’m afraid I won’t be of much help in terms of experience: either the accommodations were negotiated with a third-party or I would just try to self-accommodate.

  171. Bibliovore*

    Just checking in…
    Overwhelmed, exhausted, and relieved.
    I just filed my dossier for tenure review. Will know in April if granted.
    Looking for good thoughts and encouragement from the AAM academics out there.
    Going up early- after my third year. Unusual but not unheard of at my R1 University.
    Taking the weekend off. There will be reading of the new Ann Patchett galley and going to the State Fair on Sunday.
    Then diving into book revisions and gearing up for the fall semester.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Godspeed, Bibliovore! Not an academic myself but the partner of one. The tenure process is so stressful — wishing you as much peace as possible as you await the decision!

      1. Bibliovore*

        Thank you Jillociraptor. Had dinner out with another academic, Mr. Bibliovore, and her husband. Mr. Bibliovore expressed how glad he was that we could stop talking about tenure now that it is over. It may be a few days before I feel like it is over.

  172. SophieChotek*

    Leaving graduate degrees off your resume query –?
    Short version – if you leave degrees off resume, how do you deal with huge gaps of no work or just working as a waitress or a cashier at a grocery store….

    So I understand why you should leave graduate degrees off your resume, especially if they have nothing to do with the entry-level corporate jobs you are applying for —
    like you have an M.F.A. in Vocal Performance and your PhD. in Music Theory, but you are applying to be the Marketing Director of Teapots Inc.

    But on the other hand, then how do you explain why you’ve done “nothing” since you B.A. (in Music)…

    That leaves an odd 6-8 years’ gap…when all your did was study…

    And then in your cover letter you are trying to use examples from your grad work days/you were the treasurer of your A Capella Group (or what have you) to demonstrate how that relates to administration duties….

    1. Joanna*

      Perhaps a better option would be to rearrange the order of your resume so that your degrees are still there, just less prominent.

    2. Awkward Interviewee*

      Not sure if it’s too late for you to see this, but just in case…
      If I were you I would probably try leaving the degrees on (perhaps at the bottom as the previous commenter suggested) but sell why they should consider me in my cover letter. Explain to them why you want to change to teapot marketing and reassure them that this is an actual career change and you’re not going to go back to music after a short time with them.

    3. Office Plant*

      I would leave the degrees on and mention things you did in school that are relevant to the jobs you’re applying for. This could be general, broadly relevant stuff like writing, teaching, leading a project, etc.

    4. Yup*

      If you have a Ph.D., “all [you] did” was NOT just study – you taught, from which you can extract many organizational & communication skills; you researched; you wrote, etc. Think about the abilities you developed doing so, and don’t leave it off. It’s not a curse; many employers might even find it interesting or an advantage. And you never know how many post-ac PhDs lurk out there and totally understand what the doctoral experience is all about.

  173. Anxa*

    Can I pick which jobs to put here, or am I stuck:

    I’m applying for a position in student services, as mentioned previously in the forum. The application says:

    “Please enter your last five positions. To begin entering information, click the ADD NEW ENTRY button. Enter your oldest job first. When finished entering each job, click the ADD ENTRY button. Continue adding your job history by clicking ADD NEW ENTRY. ”

    My last 6 paid positions, inclusive are:
    Resident Assistant [2005-2008] (but of course there were about 3 other concurrent jobs)
    Canvasser [2008] for two days…I hope that means I can leave it off. The job wasn’t what was advertised
    Waitress [2009-2010]
    ACT/SAT Tutor [2014 for a few months, I don’t know if I was fired or not, but a few of us were taken off the schedule after the last test of the school year without discussion]
    Waitress [2014 for a few weeks, it was a terrible fit and I think some of the reasons why I was a poor fit for that place are things I’m actually kind of proud of]
    Tutor [2014-now]

    Do you think I can leave some out? I’d love to focus on the student services ones that would be cut off (at least the ones from the past 10 years). I even think some of my volunteer work would be better (Health Department intern, hospital volunteer, medical disaster team volunteer).

    Or is best to stick to the literal last five paid jobs and just ignore those on my resume and cover letter?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I would not feel comfortable doing any editing if they asked for last five jobs. That’s obnoxious, though.

    2. Random Citizen*

      Definitely leave off the job you only had for a few weeks. Beyond that – ugh. Is there space elsewhere on the application to list a more complete job list?

    4. Awkward Interviewee*

      Ugh. Those rigid online apps are the worst! It seems reasonable to leave off the canvasser one. If you leave the canvasser job off, you can get the RA job on at least! I’m really not sure about the few weeks waitressing one.
      Does this job app also have you attach a resume at the end? If so, you probably have a good chance of them looking mostly at your resume and not what you entered in the last 5 jobs part.

      1. Anxa*

        Yes!

        I’ve decided to leave off the canvasser one. I think I”ll put the server position on (maybe) that didn’t work out (basically I was too slow and shy because I would purposefully pace orders for booze…they later ended up having a very public incident of alcohol poisoning with a minor so I don’t think I was just bad at my job).

        Unfortunately, sticking with the 5 jobs on the application in order means I have to have a two page resume to balance it out. Luckily they do take resumes. I’m just hoping that it’s my resume, not my application that gets passed around.

    5. Office Plant*

      It can be a tough call with jobs that didn’t last long. When in doubt, I ask myself, “Does the IRS know about this job? Did I make enough money to file a W-2?” That’s the dividing line for me. The jobs that are on my federal record. I think it’s ok to include jobs that aren’t on that record, but you don’t have to.

  174. Another anon*

    Would love advice on this. I hired someone 4 months ago that is really struggling at the basics our the jobs assigned to her. She repeats the same mistakes that cost us clients and has not taken my discussions seriously.
    On top of this there is a grooming/appearance issue and late arrivals.
    My field is hard to staff, we don’t pay what others do (corporate decision I cannot change) but offer a very generous bonus monthly.

    I have tried coaching, having frank discussions… but I am always disappointed in a few days later when this shows up again.
    She is especially defensive and always has an excuse for these errors, but they keep occurring. I am working more hours to fix these mistakes.

    Beyond this there is the grooming issue which when I try to bring up is completely ignored/excused by her. I really hate to go in to details but no showers I believe? And she works directly with clients.

    So I let her go? I don’t think she realizes how serious these issues are, no matter how I phrase them.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Oof. You’ve done everything you can, and she still refuses to learn. She obviously has some major issues with professionalism. The fact that she works directly with clients makes her mistakes all the more egregious.

      I would definitely let her go.

    2. Temperance*

      Is it a BO issue, or does she look like she just woke up/unkempt?

      I personally think she’s not going to improve, and I don’t see anything good about her here. Is it that hard to find qualified people?

      1. Another anon*

        It’s actually both a BO issue and looking like she just rolled out of bed. I have mentioned this and she gets defensive/has an excuse ( was running late etc), semi cleans up for 1 day and goes back to looking the same.

        I have had a feeling she won’t improve but I feel terrible about firing her in general and she has so much potential if she fixed these issues.
        Thanks for the advice!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Then you give her clear, direct information about what she needs to do to stay in the job, and a few weeks to show you that she can make those improvements (and then sustain it long-term), and then you see if she’s able to do what you need to keep her. If she can’t, then yes, you need to fire her because she’s not hitting the bar you need and your job is to ensure the person in the role does hit that bar.

          If you’re like a lot of managers (especially managers who note they feel terrible about the prospect of firing someone), you won’t want to have a clear, direct “your job is in jeopardy if you don’t do X and you have Y weeks to improve or we will let you go” conversation because it feels harsh/mean. But it’s actually far harsher not to have that conversation, because you’re denying her information about her job security, what she needs to do to meet your expectations, and the consequences if she doesn’t.

          But your job is really to do this. You can’t keep people based on “potential” when they haven’t improved after clear, direct coaching. You’re losing clients over this! It’s unfair to other employees. And it’s unfair to your employer, who expects you to manage the performance of your team and replace people who can’t do the work.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I have tried coaching, having frank discussions… but I am always disappointed in a few days later when this shows up again.
      She is especially defensive and always has an excuse for these errors, but they keep occurring. I am working more hours to fix these mistakes.

      I worked with someone like this (no hygiene issues, though), and it took about six months to fire this person, and that was not soon enough. It doesn’t sound as if your employee is going to improve any time soon, especially with the defensiveness. Let her go. I know it’s hard to hire for the position, but sometimes it’s more work to correct someone’s work than to do it yourself.

    4. Joanna*

      If her mistakes are so serious that she’s costing you clients and she refuses to take them seriously, you’re not doing her a favour by keeping her. By letting her stay, you’re reinforcing an attitude that unrepentant defiance of workplace requirements isn’t such a big deal. That could cause her so much trouble in future jobs if it isn’t stopped now.

    5. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      Eh, you already know the answer. And as soon as you know the answer, move to terminate, don’t dither. That’s the right thing for both of you, because she also needs to move on to something she can be successful at.

  175. Anonymous frustrated employee*

    Late to the party! This is a long one, mostly just venting, but would love advice. :) (I punctuate my emoji proudly!)

    I report to one of two second-tier managers at my location (i.e. one top manager for the location with two under him – I report to one of these. Third-tier managers also report to TopManager and have no authority over my work). My issue is with the other second-tier manager (SeniorManager). She doesn’t manage my work, but she manages the location, which includes a lot of things that affect my work. The issue is that she has a pretty good idea of what is included in my job generally, but is missing a lot of details, which often makes her think I’ve made mistakes when I haven’t.

    For instance, I am responsible for printing and distributing certain promotional materials to our customers. The promotions and materials are arranged by our marketing team at a separate location, and then sent to me. Occasionally (2-3 times a week), she will discover an error in one of them (e.g. the document lists the end date of the promotion incorrectly or was being distributed after it had ended – error level is pretty standard for our industry, since these are low-level promotions dealt in bulk) and bring it to my attention. Since I don’t control the promotions or the materials, I just say that I’ll pass it on to the marketing team and let her know what I hear back and then reprint/remove incorrect materials.

    The issue is that I think she thinks the errors are my fault or responsibility, but they are not for the most part. After about nine months of repeating the “I can’t change this on my end, but I’ll pass it on to Marketing,” I think she picked up that these errors were not coming from me, but now she’s moved on to worrying over other aspects of my work. I.e. this week she saw me talking to a particular coworker frequently one day – probably close to a dozen times – and asked about it. At the time, I was working on a project that required this coworker’s frequent input and I needed to be in his work area (think section of a warehouse) that often. When she asked about it, I said, “Oh, we’re working on Project X, so I’ve been in and out all day switching documents (hard copies).” Seemed fine, but now it feels like she noting every.single.time she sees me in that section of the building because it’s not my section, but I have legitimate work reasons to be there every time. I’d tell her if she asked, but she doesn’t.

    In general, it just seems like her understanding of my work is a bit off and that I rub her the wrong way. She’s not my direct boss (I don’t report to her, and my boss seems totally happy with my work), but she does have authority over me in some ways (she plus my current boss were responsible for moving me to my current position).

    tl;dr: SeniorManager is hovering, misinterpreting my work, and possibly concluding that I make frequent mistakes or am irresponsible and inclined to socialize too much on the job, and that is stressing me out.

    1. vpc*

      can you / have you brought this up with your direct supervisor?

      “So I wanted to check in with you about a something going on with Jane that I’m not sure how to resolve. She seems to be tracking my work in a pretty detailed way, and she’s commenting to me about mistakes that I have no control over / how and where I spend my time when working on project X / other issues. I was wondering if you have any concerns about these mistakes / how and where I spend my time, or if you have any advice for me on how to respond when Jane makes these comments.”

      If you have an astute boss, she will pick up on the underlying “I can’t complain to Jane about this, but could you ask her to back off because you’re my manager and you’re fine with what I’m doing?”

      1. Random Citizen*

        Thanks for commenting! Most the time what she’s doing is not notable enough to bring up on it’s own – it’s more one-offs. E.g. the comment about being in a particular section of the building a lot. She only commented on it once, but I can tell that she notices whenever I’m over there now (and maybe I’m just being paranoid!), so it would seem weird to bring that up to my supervisor, since it would seem like I’m bringing up one insignificant comment from a week ago and asking my boss about SeniorManager’s motives.

        But, fortunately, my boss is pretty astute in things like this and generally assumes that I have a good reason for being X place, doing Y thing, talking to so-and-so. Feels like SeniorManager assumes that I might be doing something wrong, and her understanding of my workflow is a little off. Again, not to where I could comment on it – everything she says about it in terms of instructions, etc. is technically correct, but her perspective on the big picture of parts of my job is a little off.

        Really appreciate your comment though! If I get anything more concrete to bring up I’ll use the script you have – it’s great wording.

    1. Joanna*

      Yikes. That’s indeed terrible advice. Murphy’s law pretty much guarantees that no matter what the language, if you bluff about speaking it on your resume you’ll encounter someone who actually knows the language during the interview process.

      1. zora.dee*

        as a counter point: I went out on a couple of dates with a guy who put Spanish-Fluent on his resume, with only highschool/college Spanish classes, applied for a job as basically a social worker (not through the state) that needed to be bilingual, they didn’t test him at all in the interview, just asked “so you speak Spanish?” “Yeah.” “sounds good.” and totally got the job.

        He said that it had worked out because he “mostly understood” what clients were saying. uugghhhhhhh, I definitely couldn’t respect him enough to keep dating him, and I immediately thought “of course you’re a guy, most women would never even think to bluff like that, ggrr!!!”

  177. LisaD*

    How does the group feel about blocking coworkers on social media?

    I know there’s no obligation to friend coworkers, but is actively blocking different? And does it change if the person is an executive?

    Context: A C-level at my co has quite a few people blocked on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter, including our HR manager. The boss spoke to her about it and she denied even knowing how to block people on LinkedIn and claimed she just unfriended everyone on Facebook, not blocked them. She had no explanation for Twitter (which shows you explicitly that you’re blocked). There were no consequences for this, and I’m not sure if consequences would be overreaching given that it *is* her right to handle her personal social media as she likes – but it sure sets a bad example of “team player” spirit when a C-level goes out of her way to block even HR!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I see it a bit differently, so I’m curious to hear more from you about what rubs you the wrong way about this!

      I don’t quite think it follows that not allowing some staff to see your personal social media constitutes not acting like a “team player.” Anyone can be subject to nasty political stuff when something ends up in the wrong hands (or is taken poorly, rightly or wrongly), and I think this is exponentially more severe for senior-level folks. We’re dealing with an irritating dustup here with an oversharing exec who isn’t doing anything wrong, but in the current context, something entirely innocent is being taken quite badly. Senior staff are often scrutinized, sometimes fairly and sometimes not. So I have a lot of empathy for why a senior person might choose to be unavailable in some ways, like on social media, so that they can continue to have a small unfiltered space in their lives. And that aside, I don’t think anyone is obligated to make their social media available to anyone else, regardless of role.

      But my job is executive support, so I’m very inclined to a certain perspective! Can you say more about what feels off about this to you?

      1. LisaD*

        Hey, I lost track of this and didn’t reply very quickly!

        What’s off about it is primarily that she is in the habit of monitoring other employees’ social media and asking them to remove posts. She even tried to take away an ex-employee’s stock options for a post saying she had left the company voluntarily (no bashing, just “I’ve parted ways with Teapot Factory, it was my decision to depart”). So it really freaks me out that she’s blocking half of the office (and NOT the other half – she has other coworkers friended) while I know she’s monitoring me & other coworkers on our own personal social profiles and asking us to take things down that she doesn’t like.

    2. oh.canada*

      I don’t really like having any coworkers on my social media, and certainly wouldn’t want any of my bosses…

    3. EmmaLou*

      Why would HR have a right to her social media accounts? Or any coworkers at all? I’m not on social media being a dinosaur and all but the more I read about it, the less appealing it gets. It seems like some people feel like they’ve got the right to go into your house and rummage through your bureaus and bookcases and cupboards for after all… they are a) related to you; b) work(ed) with you; c) went to school with you at some point; d) live in your neighbourhood; e) met you at a Tupperware party; f) once bumped into your cart at the Piggly-Wiggly…

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Yup, and I hate this attitude. The C-level exec has done nothing wrong and it sucks she feels she has to make excuses for her behavior instead of just saying, “Yes, I block everyone I work with on social media. I’d prefer to keep my private life, you know, private.”

    4. YaH*

      Whoa. Who on earth thinks they have the right to force someone to be friends/connect with *anyone* on social media?! That’s a serious overstepping of boundaries and expectations. Companies may have (although I seriously disagree with this) an expectation of employee behavior not negatively reflecting on them, but they have absolutely no business trying to control who an employee does and does not interact with on their own private accounts.

    5. Office Plant*

      Yeah, that’s no one’s business. Well, at least on social accounts. Blocking people on LinkedIn is a little weird, depending on who the people are, and depending on your field and company culture. But there are reasons for doing it.

      The main issue I see is that some of the reasons someone might block people are personal issues that shouldn’t come up at work – politics, PTSD or anxiety issues, having been a victim of violence or harassment, and so on. I think that if it’s not affecting business, then it’s a bad idea to make an issue of it.

      1. LisaD*

        I think that is actually the issue with her. I can’t diagnose obviously but she really seems like someone who has something going on like PTSD – she has shared that she had a nervous breakdown from “overwork” in the past. I’m not sure if it was really overwork or something more like PTSD/anxiety.

        The weird thing is that she obsessively monitors everyone else’s social media, and she only blocks about half the office, and friends the other half =/ it’s very weird and feels creepy. I know she actually occasionally unblocks me on FB to read my posts, and she’s reported other coworkers’ friends-only posts to the CEO before.

  178. Tamara*

    Hopefully I’m not posting this comment too late to get some good advice.

    I’m thinking of (sort of) making a career move and going back to school to pursue my MLIS. I already work as a library paraprofessional in an institution (I’m the “librarian” there, but I’m not “a” librarian). I actually really enjoy the job and I can see a future for myself in libraries. I’ve spoken to a bunch of librarians in real life and they seem to think it wouldn’t be a bad idea for me to go get my MLIS. Even knowing the field, they seem to think it wouldn’t be a terrible choice. But every once in a while I find myself online, like… reading comments on reddit or where-ever and everyone is just SOOOOOOOOOOOO negative about the profession. Logically, I think getting my MLIS could work out okay (like, my gut feeling is to do it 0 – I wouldn’t be going to debt, I’d actually LIKE to move for a position), but all of these excessively negative comments about it make me so anxious. Everyone seems to know someone who graduated with an MLIS 3 years ago, who applied to 300+ jobs and couldn’t even get a job as a page or something.

    I know there are safer career routes to follow, but my god… how do you just ignore the negativity and pursue something you want to do, despite the naysayers?

    1. Joanna*

      While you certainly need to be realistic about your job prospects, reading reddit or similar is possibly not that helpful. Those kinds of forums are going to skew towards bitter people who didn’t get jobs and have too much time on their hands as a result rather than people who got a job and are busy working hard. The fact that librarians you know in person aren’t agreeing with their assessment makes this seem more likely. You might be better off contracting relevant industry associations or networking groups for a more well rounded picture.

      1. Tamara*

        Haha, I know that logically those sites skew to the negative, so I don’t even know why I read them. I guess when I’m bored at night I might get carried away with my internet browsing!

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      Your current experience in libraries, plus “I wouldn’t be going to debt, I’d actually LIKE to move for a position,” address the key factors in most librarians’ dire warnings. You sound like a good candidate, based on that summary. Can you keep your job while or after earning an MLIS?

      When I applied for library school in 2010, the future was painted in rosy shades… but I graduated into a dark and foreboding landscape. (Luckily, I was employed the whole time, although outside the LIS field, and after a year and a half I accepted a public librarian position in my city. The primary colors and cheerful cutout figures are back.)

      1. Tamara*

        I’m pretty sure I’d be able to cut back my hours and work part-time while earning my MLIS. However, after completing the program I’d really like to move on from the institution. It’s a good position, but… meh… not for me in the long run.

        Like I said above, I think that late night browsing probably lets my mind give more weight to the excessively negative comments I read about the field!

        1. Sparkly Librarian*

          For sure, getting the degree increases your chances of moving on to something better. But if that could take a while, it’s nice to have the current position in the meantime. That year and a half between graduation and first library job? I had to eat and pay rent. Plus I got some valuable work experience and two promotions.

          It sounds to me like you should become a librarian! :)

          1. Tamara*

            Yeah, I’m not quite sure about how long I should/could say there after finishing the MLIS. It’s something I’ll have to work out when the time comes. I guess people do it all the time, but I’m worried about them knowing I’m looking for a different job! I do think I would be able to stay there for as long as I need to, but the details need to be worked out.

            Getting an MLIS just feels like the “right” decision for me, honestly!

    3. Thyme Lady*

      I’m going to second Joanna–don’t factor reddit threads into your decision. I’ve seen similar discussions on LinkedIn with dividing views. What I took from it was that some people were expecting to get something specific from the program that they took and didn’t see that return while others did (or they got something out of it that they may have not been expecting). I also think these types of discussions just show that the field is in a flux and that it’s possible (though not definite) that in the near future, receiving a bachelor’s degree will allow graduates to move into professional positions but that master’s will only be required for those who want to serve in managerial roles/administration. But if you want to get the degree, don’t let hypotheticals or negative views deter you. Do your due diligence, figure out how you want to finance it, and think about what type of position in the field you want to pursue. Don’t be afraid to talk to other librarians outside of the workplace to get some perspective. If you work in a public institution, see if you can set up a meeting with an academic librarian at a local university or if you can do an informational interview with a media specialist.
      And as far as the comment about people who graduated three years ago and who are struggling to find work–take into account the economic climate of the time. A lot of libraries had to make cuts and freeze hiring. Many are still trying to regain their footing after the recession, so many are competing for the same job. It’s likely circumstance and not necessarily lack of skill. Because you currently have a job and may even be able to work part-time if you go for the degree, you probably will not have to worry about finding work. That is unless you just quit and move across the country without something lined up.

      1. Tamara*

        Oh, I certainly didn’t mean the comment about people who graduated three years ago and are struggling to find a job as a jab against anyone who has been in that situation. I just meant that it seems like so many people have a complete worst-case-scenario story about finding a job in the field.

        1. Bibliovore*

          I have been a public librarian, a school librarian, and an academic librarian. If you can afford to get your MLIS without going into debt and ARE working in a library, the situation is much more positive. As a hiring manager, rare is the “entry level” librarian job. It IS difficult to get a position if a person has an undergrad degree and masters with no work experience. Even in the “golden years” recent MLIS graduates had to put in 2 to 3 years in a city that needed staffing rather that stay put in their home town. And yes, that meant weekend and evening shifts and working Christmas eve because of seniority. Join professional organizations, state and national- they will have student rates. Identify your niche, yet be open minded. I know a person who got her graduate degree focussing on Medical librarianship and ended up as a teen librarian. It was a complete surprise to her that a part-time job was one she loved and morphed into full-time.

          For a more positive and interesting take, dip into the librarian Facebook account, ALA Think Tank. A diversity of point-of-view and humor can be found there.

    4. Library School Dropout*

      Since you’ve already got your foot in the door of the library profession, I say go for it. The experience you have already will make it a lot easier to get a job that requires an MLIS in the future.

      That said, the profession can be hard to break into if you’re in a town that has a library school because of all the competition for jobs. I’m aware of a lot of recent grads who could not find full-time work and had to piece together a life made up of 2 or 3 part-time gigs at different libraries, sort of like commuter professors. Also, there seem to be a lot of jobs that most grads seem to find less than desirable (although I’m sure some people would like them) such as working in a prison library, a law library, a medical library, or else they might end up having to work in a small town out in the middle of nowhere. People seem to take these jobs to get experience.

      IMO there’s also a fair amount of age-related discrimination in the field and older men who attempt to switch careers and enter the field seem to have it worse than women.

    5. MLIS*

      Yeah, ignore the naysayers. They’re mostly people who only applied for jobs by responding to online postings. I know some people get jobs that way, but networking in person has a higher success rate, especially when you’re first starting out. This may be more true in the library world than in other fields; I’m not sure.

      There are all kinds of in person networking opportunities for librarians. There’s a warm and friendly professional culture. Librarians like to help one another with professional development. But it’s all based around events and meeting people face to face.

      A big thing in this field is that tech is creating a lot of jobs in some areas and have the opposite impact in others. I recommend thinking about what kind of work you want to do and choosing a school accordingly. If you want to learn to write code or do something like DAM, taxonomy, information management, etc, you’ll have plenty of job options and you can go to any school with a decent program and classes in those areas. If you want to do something more traditional, it’s good to be strategic about your choice of school, internships, what classes you take, and what professional organization(s) you join. Those areas are getting more competitive. Though if you do good work and then get out and network, you should be fine.

    6. Damn it Hardison!*

      I am an adjunct for a MSLIS program. Going for your degree and coming out with no debt is fantastic. It will open some doors for you that would not be available otherwise, like academic librarian jobs that require the degree. One thing that I always tell my students is to be flexible with the type of jobs they apply for. Some are so specific – like only applying for jobs at a whaling museum (not making this up) – that they limit their opportunities. Know that the first job you take out of school is not likely to be either your perfect job or your last job so look at it as good experience that you can use in the next job.

      Also, a word about salaries. The money isn’t great for a lot of library jobs. I’ve had a lot of students complain about it. But that’s the way it is unfortunately. Go in being informed about salary and job prospects; if it still looks good to you, go for it!

      1. Thyme Lady*

        The upside is people and social impact are your bottom lines instead of profits, which can make work feel more meaningful and give you a sense of purpose. That’s just my opinion :)

  179. Laura*

    My husband recently applied for a job with Amazon, passed the first interview (the HR recruiter screening) and then was scheduled for the second HR screening which was a behavioral screening. He was told that there was no wrong answers, it was just to get a feel for how he would handle things, and how he would fit into the company culture. It was a 45 minute interview, and was all questions that were behaviorally based. He did not pass this interview, and had no follow up with what he did wrong with the behavioral responses. He researched on this site and others to be prepared for the behavioral questions. The actual job description was a great match for his skills and experience.

    My question is- Amazon is such a large company, with many different locations and HR recruiters. Would it be weird for him to apply for another job at Amazon, would that be a waste of time because he didn’t pass the behavioral interview?

    1. Joanna*

      I don’t think it would be weird. It’s possible he actually did well on the behavioural interview but they happened to have a couple of other candidates that were slightly closer to perfect. I wouldn’t read much into the fact he didn’t get any follow-up. Some recruiters are too busy to give feedback to anyone or their company discourages them from doing so.

    2. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      So I’m curious. I’ve never worked at or interviewed with a Large Employer such as Amazon. (Well, I worked at a large insurance company a million years ago but that doesn’t count.)

      Does someone literally tell you “you didn’t pass our behavioral interview”? Do they say that? I can’t wrap my head to that.

    3. Office Plant*

      It depends on whether the behavioral screening is a company-wide thing that goes on your permanent record as either Pass or Fail or a regional/branch thing or something that’s open to interpretation. You might be able to uncover this with some googling or by talking to people who’ve worked there.

  180. Joanna*

    Slightly weird question: I work in a large open plan office where people are very noisy about other people’s business, especially any deliveries they might get. I’ve had some difficult things happen at work in the last few weeks that mean I need to keep a low profile. My mother has indicated multiple times that she intends to have a big bunch of flowers delivered, in part to somehow make a point to managers about how they’re treating me. How do you convince someone who has never worked in an open place office and loves attention that this is a very very bad idea that will make thing so much more awkward for me? I don’t want to spend the day explaining the flowers or having people speculate about why they were sent.

    1. Amanda*

      Acknowledge to her that it’s a kind thought, but tell her to send them to your house instead. If you don’t think she’ll understand the work situation, you can make something up like, “I’d love flowers, and I’d really want them to live, but they’ll probably get thrown out if you send them to work.”

      1. Joanna*

        Thanks. That’s a good idea. I’d already thanked her for the kind thought and told her reception doesn’t like dealing with personal deliveries, but somehow hadn’t thought to have them sent to home.

  181. Amanda*

    Hi! I know I’m posting late but…

    Is there anyone here that holds an upper-level position in marketing or in the music industry that would be willing to give me some quick feedback on my resume? I’m looking for a role in marketing, ideally in the music industry, and I’d really appreciate some feedback. (If so, maybe it would be best to connect via LinkedIn so we don’t have to share our email addresses on here.)

    If this isn’t an appropriate place to ask, I apologize! I wasn’t sure, but figured I’d give it a shot. Thanks! =)

  182. So very anon for this*

    WARNING: Contains human waste. I’m not making this up; I really wish I were.

    I work in a small office (fewer than 40 people) and we have been having a sporadic but persistent issue with the men’s restroom. One of the men in the office is not being diligent about his hygiene and has occasionally left sweaty brown “prints” on the back of the toilet seat for others to deal with. On more rare occasions, this has gone beyond a thin but noticeable film of waste to actual, um, “lost sheep” in the bowl and sometimes on the seat itself, rendering one of the two stalls in the men’s room unusable until it is cleaned.

    It’s worth pointing out that both stalls contain disinfectant wipes and toilet brushes, so it’s not a matter of this person not having the tools to clean up his mess. Either he doesn’t realize or doesn’t care. We have twice-weekly cleaning crews who come to our office, but that leaves three days a week when someone else has to deal with the problem.

    We suspect we know who is doing this, from circumstantial evidence and an occasional lingering fetor around his desk, but as yet no one has caught the culprit brown-handed. I am not a manager and I am at a loss for how to suggest that we deal with this issue. Do you have any thoughts (other than “Thank God I don’t work with people who don’t clean up their own feces”)?

    (Full disclosure: I’m not a fan of the likely culprit in any case; he’s a slacker and he tends to be stubborn, shading into sullen. The only reason I can see why he hasn’t been canned already is that he is the lead on a major project and training up a replacement would set it back six months or more.)

    1. Mockingjay*

      Wow. Management will have to be blunt about the need for hygiene in shared spaces. Unfortunately I don’t see how any one culprit can be identified. (Who wants to track their coworkers bathroom runs? Although people have written in about Nosy Nellies who do just that.)

  183. awarded!*

    Super quick question!

    In 2012 and 2013, I received my company’s “Teamwork Award.” Should I list that on my resume?

    Part of me feels like no one cares (because it’s an subjective award, so I’m not sure it counts as an achievement). But the other part of me thinks prospective employers might be happy to see it.

    What do ya’ll think?

    1. TootsNYC*

      I’d put it on there. It would make a small positive difference to me, is why.

      I know it’s a bit of a bullshit award, but it does say that people who worked with you liked you, so that’s a positive.

      (Some of this depends on your level. Lower, lower middle–keep it. Middle? Eh, won’t hurt. Higher than that: don’t. Also the type of job. Retail, secretarial–keep it. Programmer? Eh.)

  184. Gingerbread*

    What font size/style do you use in email? I like Futura condensed light, but I use Arial size 12 because I think it looks more professional.

  185. How to deal with the c-word at work...*

    I asked a question earlier, but I’m going anon for this one just because it’s a lot more personal.

    In the spring my father was diagnosed with cancer (he’s doing okay right now, but it’s an aggressive type of cancer) and the prognosis isn’t great. I’ve only told one coworker about my father. I work at a school and we had a big admin. changeover so we have a new principal, etc. and it didn’t seem worth it to share it. Now we’re starting back up and the new principal is settling in, so I need to meet with him to discuss some areas of concern I have about my position (nothing too big), but the coworker who knows (an admin. assistant) is telling me that I should also tell him about my father. Just in case something happens and I can’t be there, I can be supported at work etc., that makes sense… but I just don’t know HOW to approach it. Like… do I just go into his office and be like “Hey, my dad has cancer and will probably be dead in a year!! So I might have to miss work!!” Is there a script I can use? I am completely terrified about mentioning it, but I think I do have to tell him. I just don’t know how.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      What I did in a similar situation after starting a new job was to tell my boss, “My dad has cancer, the prognosis isn’t good, and at some point in the next year I’m going to need some time off related to that. I can’t say with certainty when it’ll be but I want to let you know now that it’s something that will come up at some point since I don’t know how much notice I’ll have when it does.”

      I’m sorry about your dad.

  186. Office Plant*

    I have a history of being under employed yet nerdy. The kind of person who works in restaurants and reads text books at home for fun. I overcame this by getting a masters degree in a field that’s not really a good fit. At this point, I’ve had some impressive jobs, but my resume doesn’t reflect my skills, interests, knowledge or personality; it’s really misleading.

    How can I change this? How can I make my resume reflect my actual skills and interests? Include stuff I do outside of work? Make a Skills section, and put it at the top?

  187. Work / Life Question*

    I’m very different at work than I am outside of work. My work personality is very business like, and outside of work, I’m an eccentric artist type. I’m fine with it, but in an age where everything is public, it can cause issues. The weird thing, though, is that I LIKE having a split work / non-work personality, switching between ways of life, so to speak. Is that weird? How can I get away with it?

    1. Colette*

      Does it need to be secret? There are plenty of people who have hobbies unrelated to their jobs. A lot of people in high tech, for example, have artistic hobbies.

      Unless you’re doing something sexual or hateful, most people won’t care. But if you do, you probably want to use an alias outside of work.

  188. Marmalade*

    Just left a blistering (well, level-headed … but negative) review on Glassdoor of my former employee. So satisfying! I hope they’ll approve it.

  189. Kara*

    My eventual goal is to become an actuary but I haven’t passed any of the exams yet. I know it could take me a few years to pass enough exams to get hired. In the meantime, I obviously need a job. I have been applying at insurance companies for entry-level positions such as Auto Damage Adjuster and Liability Claims Representative. My thinking is that in a few years when I start applying for Actuary jobs, it will look good to have experience in the insurance industry. Does this seem like a good idea? If not, what types of jobs would be better? I have a b.s. in math and 3 years of high school math teaching experience ( I hated it and am trying to change careers). Thanks in advance for any advice!

    1. Actuary*

      Hey! I’m an actuary :) (or working towards becoming one- technically an actuarial analyst, one exam away from ACAS).

      The biggest thing is exams. You won’t get hired without them. Insurance experience will look good, and really even your teaching experience will look good, but it will mean nothing if you don’t have exams. The biggest challenge will be that some companies are biased towards wanting candidates with internships, and most companies only fill internships with current students. But you can definitely still get an entry-level job without one. Pass 2, ideally 3 exams (more always better though) and then apply EVERYWHERE that’s in an area you’d be willing to live. But again, first figure out if you can pass the exams.

      Right now, you can either continue teaching, or you can try to switch to some sort of insurance/data/analyst/financial/etc. job. Doesn’t really matter exactly what you’re doing but insurance, data, programming, financial stuff are best. When you interview for an actuarial job, the biggest thing (besides exams) will be Excel skills. Followed by being a generally likeable person, understanding what an actuary is, and other programming/computer skills are a plus.

      The first 2 exams are probability and financial mathematics. You can do either one first; they don’t have much to do with each other. Pick the one that sounds easiest to you. Buy an ASM manual online somewhere and just pound through the practice problems. It’s really more brute force practice than being theoretically difficult. Don’t spend too much time getting to know every single theoretical detail, as long as you can complete the problems. The problems get relatively repetitive in style, so even if you don’t 1000% understand why you’re doing what you’re doing, you can still do well if you practiced enough. The manual will have everything you need to study. Don’t bother wasting time trying to learn/refresh your memory of calculus/statistics outside of what’s in the manual.

      Anyway, TONS more info on actuarialoutpost.com (if you haven’t been there, basically the forum all actuaries know about, lots of good career/exam advice), but that should get you started.

      Good luck!

      1. Ever and Anon*

        Many large insurance companies will have tracks where they help you along with the exams, pay the fees, and give study time. You usually want to pass at least the first one or two for this though.

    2. Christopher Tracy*

      I don’t think you want to do claims if you’re more interested in the data and statistical side of things. I’m an adjuster and a risk management professional, and I tell people all the time – claims is not for the faint of heart, especially regarding liability claims. I have auto, liability, and now property experience in the financial sector (so commercial lines), and it takes a certain kind of personality to be able to deal with being screamed at all the time and attending mediations, and yes, even being sued or named in a Department of Insurance complaint. Every person I’ve worked with who has a math background in insurance has quickly hightailed it out of claims as soon as a business analyst or predictive analytics role has opened up.

      So that would be my suggestion to you – apply for BA, predictive analytics, actuarial assistant, or even underwriting positions. I think someone with your background and interest in actuary science would be better off in those roles since they are more about data than claims, which is more customer service focused and less data focused on our end. Claims will burn you out if you don’t have a passion for it and the right temperament.

  190. Negotiator*

    I got a job offer today! Unfortunately, it’s lower than I’d hoped, so I’m contemplating whether I’ll accept. I have a very good job currently, and I’m just looking for a change/to broaden my experience a bit- but no major issues where I am now though.

    I’d like to negotiate salary, as I’d be willing to walk away, but there’s also a number where I’d accept.

    The problem is I may have locked myself into a range earlier in the process when talking with HR. During my first phone screen, they asked my expectations, and I said “mid 90s total compensation,” to which she replied, relieved, “oh, that’s no problem.” The issue is I really wanted mid 90s base and have no clue why I threw on the “total comp” at the end. It was kind of a nervous quirk of me being afraid to put myself out of the running by saying a number too high, and I guess I thought I might possibly accept a low 90s base salary offer with a bonus putting it in the mid 90s.

    Anyway, the offer is mid/high 80s which I doubt I’ll accept. And the benefits (401k match, vacation, standardized raises for passing professional exams/certifications) are a lot worse than what I have now. Granted, right now I do know that I have far above average benefits.

    Anyway, if I really want around 94-95, what do I come in at? I feel like I can’t go higher because then they can be like, you clearly said mid 90s total comp. There is a bonus but they emphasized it’s discretionary and varies, no real target beyond a claim that they’re often from 6-10%.

    My current salary is low 80s for reference. I wouldn’t necessarily call this huge step up in responsibility but it’s in a much more expensive cost of living area + I just want an increase to change jobs, especially with substantially worse benefits.

    (Accidentally posted this as a reply to somebody else’s comment yesterday- think this is the right place now.)

    1. LawCat*

      I think you may be over thinking this. It sounds like the salary is a deal breaker for you (and it doesn’t sound like you’re that excited about being in mid-90s). “I have carefully considered your offer, but I am not able to accept for less than 95.” And then stick to it. If the bonus comes up again, you could address it like, “I understand that the bonus is discretionary an variable and I need something more reliable. I will need a base salary of no less than 95. Is that something you can do?” (If they say things like the bonus has been paid every year for the past X years and is an average of $Y, don’t get sucked in unless it becomes a guaranteed bonus, not discretionary, and the details of the amount and when paid out should be in writing). If they can meet 95, great, maybe you can still earn the bonus later and that takes you above the mid-90s. Cherry on top!

      Since you have a good job and are willing to walk on this one, there’s really no risk to try and get what you want here.

      1. Colette*

        One comment here: I’d base my number in what the job is worth, and communicate that. They should be paying the market rate, not what you’d like. So “based on our discussions about the job, I believe that 95k is in line with the market rate” or something like that.

  191. Ruffingit*

    So the new overtime law that goes into effect in December means that many of the people at my company will be clocking in and out. I am not subject to this law as I make well above the pay band that it applies to. HOWEVER…we found out on Friday that our company is going to make EVERYONE check in at 8 because “we don’t want those who have to do it to be angry or upset, so we’re just going to make it a blanket rule for everyone.” WHAT THE F**K???

    Those of us to whom this law doesn’t apply work in the field in public schools and in people’s homes so at first, they were going to have us go to our schools at 8 and use the school’s landline phone to call in. Then, they decided we could vote on whether we wanted to use the Find Friends app on our work issued phones or take a screenshot of the map on our phones showing our location and sending that to our boss. Also, we’re required to write down and turn in daily everything we’re doing in each of our 8 hours of work.

    Did I mention we’re all licensed professionals with master’s degrees and most of us have at least 20 years of work experience?

    Yes, I’m job hunting because NO. JUST NO.

      1. Ruffingit*

        I would love to, but I can’t get the group on board. Even though we’re all pissed about it, no one wants to stand up against it with me. I’ve seen that situation many times unfortunately where people are afraid to say something. Also, this is a large company, over 2400 employees, and they frequently make one size fits all rules that don’t actually fit anyone. It’s just…ARGH. I’m enraged every time I think about it because this job is hard enough without adding that nonsense on to it.

  192. AnotherTeacher*

    Hoping this isn’t too, too late – salary range question:

    A similar position at a different school has a listed salary range with a 12k variance. The range does not state something like “hiring begins at” or “commensurate with experience,” only the range. The position entails a great deal of responsibility, as well as a broad range of competencies. The high end of the range seems quite reasonable (and is still a fairly average mid-level academic salary).

    How do readers feel about applying for a job where they wouldn’t accept the low end of a range? Would you bother? Or, does anyone have an idea of what this means? Is it really a “range”?

  193. Newish Reader*

    I might be too late this week, but here goes. I will be heading up the hiring committee for a position in my office. I’m not the direct supervisor for this position, but will be working very closely with the new person. Our office has gone through a bit of turnover and reorganization lately and we’re finally getting to a good place. This new hire will complete the restructuring. Those of us currently in the office are hoping we can find a coworker that will complete our team and stay for a while.

    The decision has been made to first look internally for someone to fill the open position because knowledge of the company could be beneficial. I’ve been here for quite a few years and know many of the people that might apply. Some I’ve worked closely with before in other offices and some I’ve been friends with outside of work.

    I know it will be important to stay as objective as possible when evaluating the applicants’ resumes and cover letters. Once we get past reviewing for the basic requirements (degree, years of experience, etc.), I’m concerned that my knowledge of these people will impact how I view their fitness for this role. I want to be fair to all of the candidates but I’m also concerned that we find the best person to join the office so we can finally get back to normal operations with a full team.

    For example, there is one person that told me she is applying that I suspect is just trying to find a way out of a bad situation. She has the technical skills to do the job, but in prior personal conversations with her (well before this job came open) she stated that this isn’t the type of work she enjoys and finds fulfilling. How do I separate those prior conversations from my considerations of her application materials? If she gives us all the right answers at the interview and indicates she wants to do this work, how do I ignore the little voice in the back of my head that’s questioning her sincerity and intent to stay here if we’re actually just a life preserver until she can find something else?

    Is there anyone still on this thread that has had only internal applicants to consider when hiring and how did you manage to keep objective?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      But you should take into account your knowledge of candidates from working with them. You’d be hampering yourself in finding the best person if you decide you can only assess resumes and cover letters! There’s no rule, practical, legal, or ethical, that requires you to do that. One of the advantages of hiring internally is that you do know more about candidates, and you absolutely can and should include that knowledge in your assessment.

      1. Newish Reader*

        Thanks for the advice! I’m probably just overthinking this. But I want to be sure I’m not making assumptions about the candidates’ intentions and preferences. I’m worried I’ll disregard a candidate that I think will only stay a few months because of a conversation we had months ago. Or that I give extra weight to a candidate that I know is in a toxic office and wants to get out but isn’t quite the right fit for my office.

        I am trying to structure the hiring committee (because I have some say in the composition of the committee) to be a mix of people with different perspectives. And I will take your advice to take into consideration relevant knowledge from being coworkers with these applicants. And I’m hoping between all of us we can keep keep out irrelevant assumptions.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          You can ask about it though! In the example you gave, you can say to her, “You’ve mentioned to me in the past that you don’t find X enjoyable and fulfilling. What’s drawing you to this job?” (And then you’re allowed to decide if you find her answer credible or not.)

  194. AliCat*

    I recently got promoted to a job in a different department. It’s exciting because there is much more career potential but I’m a bit overwhelmed because its a department of one and I’ve got no background in the area. So far people say I’m doing really well – but here’s my issue – the people previously in this position (with years of experience in the area) had such a heavy workload that they were frequently working late into the night or on weekends (one even requested an assistant). This role used to be exempt but now that the laws have changed will be non-exempt starting in December. My boss wants to have a meeting next week to discuss how things are going and I was wondering if I should bring this up? How do I broach the subject without it seeming like I can’t get the job done?

    1. SomeBody123*

      Wait so doesn’t this mean that you’ll now get paid overtime instead of not being paid overtime? And if you don’t like working long hours, it sounds like the overtime requirement would actually discourage them from making you work extra hours, which could be a plus?

      You can bring up the long hours topic, just know that you may not love the answer, and I wouldn’t push too much after that. Like, say it once, get a read on whether they expect you to work long hours or not, and if they do and you’re not OK with that, you need to figure out whether this is the job for you. Like, “The workload for this position is very heavy, and I know that in the past, people in this role worked longer hours. I wanted to set expectations early on- should I expect to work longer than a normal 9-5 day on a regular basis? If not, how should we approach the situation if I ever find myself with a very heavy workload that can’t be completed in an 8 hour day?” Maybe your manager will say they expect you to come to them when this happens so they can help set more reasonable deadlines/expectations, find additional staff to help you out, etc. Or maybe they’ll say it’s a job requirement to get everything done. But it’s fair to ask once to find out what the expectation is.

      But aside from that, it’s completely reasonable to say, “Since this job sometimes requires working later than 5, I wanted to talk to you about the impact of my status changing from exempt to non-exempt and how overtime payment will work,” or something. You deserve to know the logistics of what you’ll be paid for, and that doesn’t come across as “I don’t want to work long hours,” it just comes across as, “I want to make sure I know the law.”

      1. AliCat*

        No my company is too cheap to approve overtime so they’ll insist on sticking to 40 hours a week and that’s what I’m worried about – I don’t know if that’s going to be possible.

        1. SafetyPin*

          As Alison has said in posts previous, you go to them and say “hey I know past people in this position normally worked (X amount of hours per week), and if you want me to stick to 40 hours I can do A,B and C tasks as my priorities and X,Y and Z as I am able. Does that sound doable? ” They will then either say ok, or approve the overtime. Either way it seems like a win-win.

  195. Mimmy*

    Hope people see this – anyone ever use LiveScribe smart pens? If so, what are your thoughts on the company / their customer service?

    tl;dr – I think in hindsight, I should’ve sought a different accommodation for taking meeting minutes – LiveScribe customer service is lacking!

    I’m using their LiveScribe 3 smart pen to help me with taking minutes for my monthly state council meetings, purchased by the council. I decided to purchase a leather case for the pen. It was agreed that I would purchase the case myself, then submit for reimbursement. The council treasurer approved it, but a third-party fiscal person is giving us a bit of grief.

    Here’s why: When I make purchases, I generally don’t save the order confirmation page because I assume that I will get a confirmation email, which I was going to use as documentation for reimbursement. Bad idea! Never got the email, and there was no invoice in the final package – just a packing slip. I tried submitting a credit card statement (with sensitive info redacted) and a description of the product. Apparently that’s not helping. Now, nobody can reach the company despite multiple attempts.

    I really wish I’d research other accommodations / strategies for helping me in taking these minutes. I just have such a hard time getting everything down accurately while dealing with competing background noise and long-winded discussions.

  196. SafetyPin*

    Does anyone have any experience with reporting a business for discrimination? I think I have just become a victim of age discrimination but I don’t know the first thing about reporting it. What is the outcome if you “win”? Is it even worth doing? I just gave notice and am sitting at home reeling from the past 24 hours and how it seems like my entire tenure there, and being a model employee, has been for nothing.

  197. Isabel C.*

    So, following up on a question I asked a while back, and got really good answers to.

    When I stated my desired salary in a phone screen, I said “X, but willing to negotiate depending on benefits, particularly transportation.” I’ve since had an interview and an editing test, and the lady who did the phone screen said she got “great feedback” about me from the interview–which, I know, does not make anything certain. So I hope I’m not jinxing myself here, but want to figure out response ahead of time if they ask me to be more specific about negotiation.

    I was thinking: “Well, I’m looking for X, but if I could work from home one or two days a week–and I’d be open to waiting a few months to start that, so I could get familiar with the office and work in person–I’d be happy to go to X-5-7K or so.”

    Would that work?

    1. Colette*

      I’d have two concerns about that approach – salary should be based on what the job is worth, and that doesn’t change based on your commute, and working from home is a benefit that can be taken away with no notice. Salary is harder to take away. I’d treat the “can I work from home” independently from the salary.

  198. Other Work Question Forums*

    Hi,

    Does anybody know another workplace open-thread forum that I could use?

    Sometimes I got questions after AAM’s Friday work open-thread, and sometimes emailing AAM might not always get an answer due to the high traffic of questions for AAM.

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