open thread – September 23-24, 2016

by Alison Green on September 23, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,399 comments }

{ 1,399 comments… read them below }

  1. Angry Young Man*

    Hey everyone, I’d like some feedback on whether I handled this situation professionally.

    I’m a younger guy with a few years of professional experience in my industry. I’m job hunting right now and I’m employed full time.

    A recruiter set me up with a phone interview for a skilled technical role in a large retailer. They wanted me to do a long skills test before the interview that took me about 3 hours.

    They liked my answers, so we scheduled a phone interview. But I waited outside in my car for 20 minutes but they never called. I emailed the recruiter and he apologized for the “miscommunication” (quotes because he wouldn’t elaborate on what he meant when I asked him because I was curious if I had done something wrong, i.e. not replying promptly enough).

    We rescheduled, but this time the hiring manager had to cancel a few hours beforehand. I asked if we could do the next morning, and I was told that they conducted all interviews between 2 and 3 on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. So I decided I would give it one final chance. On the third time, the company didn’t call again. I sent another email saying that I was “done” (pretty much those exact words, like “It’s 45 minutes past the scheduled time and I haven’t heard anything. I’m done with this company.”). The recruiter was really confused when I said this and insisted I had the wrong date, until I forwarded him his email. The he admitted he messed up and gave me and the hiring manager two different days.

    In retrospect that was a little rude. But I think the recruiter’s reply was worse. He said that I was “being stupid” and costing myself an opportunity by withdrawing my candidacy because of his mistake. I sent something back along the lines of “I would agree that it’s a lost opportunity for all of us. The company should be evaluating me and I should be evaluating them. I’ve spent a few hours on their technical skills test and then lost about an hour of work time this week to step out for phone interviews which they never called me for. Every time I step out of the office to take a phone interview I risk my boss finding out I’m job hunting, and I’ve risked that twice now for no reason. That’s a lack of respect for my time when I’ve respected theirs by being available for interviews and devoting time to their skills test. Best of luck finding a candidate.”

    So was I out of line? I think I made the right decision, but I also think I might’ve been really nasty with my wording.

    1. StupidInterviewee*

      I think your anger is pretty justified, especially considering you are still working and the recruiter is not making your job hunting while employed any easier. I mean, once is excusable, but THREE times? Jeez

      1. Angry Young Man*

        I’m fine with rescheduling once, or even twice with a decent reason. One time I had to cancel an interview once because I needed to drive a relative to the ER (I’d be okay with hearing “sorry, there was an emergency for someone at Hiring Company”), so the hiring manager or someone on the interviewing team having to bail at the last minute didn’t upset me.

        What did upset me was the recruiter/hiring manager insisting on sticking with their weirdly specific interview schedule even after dropping the ball a few times. I’m not expecting them to bend over backwards for me, but saying something “we realize it’s been a little tough so we could do tomorrow morning if that’s okay with you” would’ve gone a good deal to establishing a good relationship.

    2. Newby*

      It sounds like it is the recruiter you should be done with rather than the company. Is he an internal recruiter or an agency recruiter?

      1. Angry Young Man*

        Agency. All the really negative experiences I’ve had (like being invited into the recruiter’s office and then getting sent home because they decided they wanted to work with people from “stronger colleges” — when they had my resume already!) were agency recruiters.

        I think the company definitely has some fault for messing up the first two scheduled interviews and then being really inflexible with rescheduling. We’re talking about one of the top 5 largest metro areas in the USA for a job paying in the upper five figures. I’m not saying they should let someone interview at 7 in the evening, but the response shouldn’t be a robotic “all phone interviews take place from 2:00 to 2:30 or 2:30 to 3:00 on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday” if they want good people.

        1. designbot*

          oh, that makes me feel much better about this! I would *never* send replies like the ones you sent to the company itself, even in the face of that level of rudeness. If it were direct with the company I would have said something more like “I’m sorry but I will not be able to reschedule further. The time I have spent on this is negatively impacting my current job and I have worn out my employers flexibility with my schedule in my attempts to make myself available to you. Best of luck with your search.”
          With an agency recruiter I still don’t feel your replies could be described as professional, but they’re much less likely to bite you further down the road.

          1. Angry Young Man*

            Yeah, I’d absolutely never say this to someone I’d be working for/with on a daily basis.

            I did have a similar situation with an HR manager calling me up for an interview like 20 minutes late and I said something like “I really need to get back to my desk in the next 10 minutes, so let’s talk to the recruiter about rescheduling.” I’m sure he got the message, but at least I didn’t say it in an a-hole-y way. He probably doesn’t even remember it.

            In retrospect (which I kinda realized before making the original post — if I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have asked for criticism) I shouldn’t have said anything in that email, and just left it to what you said.

        2. Loose Seal*

          About the limited time slots: They must be getting people they like even with limiting themselves to those time slots. Otherwise, they’d expand them a little more. Or they aren’t getting good people with the limited slots but are unable to expand them right now because of the availability of the interviewer(s). You were right to ask whether you could have a time slot outside their set ones. But when they said no, it wasn’t a cause for you to get angry about. Yes, you could have chalked that part up in the “cons” side of the equation (I would have for sure) and withdrawn yourself from consideration then but this continued insisting that they aren’t getting good people if they only interview during such a short, set time is a red herring. Let that go.

            1. AnonAnalyst*

              But I wonder if the lack of flexibility is really on the interviewer(s). I can totally see them giving some times to the recruiter when they are usually available for interviews so the recruiter can schedule those without constantly checking in, and the recruiter sticking to those times exclusively.

              Particularly in this case since at least one of the scheduling mishaps appears to be a situation where the recruiter screwed up – and he seems unwilling to admit it unless pushed (as it took a couple of exchanges with the OP before he owned up to the miscommunication). That does not sound like a person who will go back to the team and ask if they have any flexibility to reschedule because HE made a mistake.

          2. Observer*

            You left out a third – and in my opinion the most likely – they are not getting good people in any sort of timely fashion, and they haven’t changed their ways because they don’t recognize the problem or don’t care.

            1. Loose Seal*

              Yeah, I agree with that. But the point still being that it’s working for them (in that they don’t know or don’t care that it’s not working) but it’s still the same for the OP. Stuff like this happens when you’re job searching. I agree it’s crappy to be treated that way. But allowing anger to bleed over into communication with them might hurt OP in the future in ways he can’t predict now.

              1. Angry Young Man*

                My money’s on “it doesn’t work well, but it’s not so horribly dysfunctional entire departments are quitting on the spot, so no one with the authority to change it cares enough to.” Maybe I’m jaded beyond my years, though. :)

                1. Loose Seal*

                  Well, there’s always the oldie but goodie (she said sarcastically) where someone with hiring authority has some ridiculous test that they use to see who is a “good” hire. Like the person who, after offering the interviewee a drink such as coffee or tea, wouldn’t hire the tea drinker because clearly someone who gets tea would be a pain to work with. Or the person who wouldn’t hire someone who didn’t pick up their paper cup (given to them by the interviewer) at the end of the interview and ask where to throw it out.

                  Maybe in this case, they have some weird idea that if you can interview well in the after-lunch slump, you are a “go-getter” with some “gumption.” Who knows?

    3. Future Analyst*

      I concur: it wouldn’t have been out of line to politely decline when the recruiter tried to set up another interview time, but tell him you’re “done with [the] company” and telling him there was a “lack of respect for [your] time” was not necessary. In the future, consider the following: a) the actions of the recruiter are not necessarily indicative of the overall company’s culture/pace, etc. and b) you can’t take everything (or maybe anything) personally during your job search. As you said in your email, you’re evaluating the company too: use the information you have available to decide if you’re interested in further pursuing a position with the company, and go from there. There’s no need to get snippy with the recruiter.

      All that being said, you were totally right to be annoyed. Job searching sucks enough as it is, and waiting (twice!) for someone to call who never does is no fun.

      1. Angry Young Man*

        Yeah, I realized that I was sending it out of righteous anger as I was doing it. That’s absolutely a flaw of mine. I am a little ashamed of that, but this recruiter had already damaged their relationship with me; they lied about one of their clients being in my city when they were actually in the next state over. When I withdrew because I was misled about the company’s location the recruiter sent off a snippy email about being “disappointed in me” and how I’m giving up and should’ve used the geographical difference to negotiate a remote work agreement.

        But I’d shift some of the fault you’re assigning to the recruiter in this specific scenario to the company though. The company absolutely refused to budge from their handful of interview slots, even after messing up and missing the call twice. Do I come off as an entitled millennial to call that poor practice when you’re working largely with currently employed candidates (I’m in tech, which has a pretty low unemployment rate in my city) for a skilled position? There may have been a good reason for doing that, but I’ll never know because they didn’t give one. When I absolutely cannot do a certain time I give a sentence or two of detail like “I actually can’t do Thursday at 10 because that’s when our quarterly department-wide meeting is with everyone up to my boss’ boss’ boss. Could we do 3?” I think this leads to better feelings between everyone.

        1. nofelix*

          You’re not wrong, but being angry at every time someone sends a bad email is going to leave you being angry a lot. If someone is inconsiderate then rant discretely to a friend about it, then be totally polite in your response. Always. It’s vital to have ways of dealing with the emotions from annoying situations that don’t jeopardise your reputation. In this situation it probably didn’t matter, but it will do in future.

        2. Sofia*

          This really bothers and I actually had that happen to me a few times. Once I had an interview downtown at 8am and my office was clear on the other side (about a 45 minute drive) from the place of the interview. I waited until about 845, but the interviewer never showed up because she was stuck in traffic. To make matters worse, no one was in the office at the time so I waited outside in the winter this whole time. Not to mention, I had to pay for parking! I told the recruiter that I would no longer like to interview or reschedule because I had already missed a lot of work time. But had it been the other way around and I had been late, would they really have given me another chance?

          The second time was similar to yours, the first time the hiring manager couldn’t call me because she got busy and the second time the recruiter gave us different jobs. I ended up getting that job though and hated it. Maybe I should have taken the hints.

          I think we have a right to be upset and annoyed when this happens, because I do think it is disrespectful of our time, but I think we are not supposed to tell this to the recruiters or hiring managers.

        3. Jadelyn*

          Wow, why are you still working with that recruiter??? Sounds like he’s got issues of his own with inflexibility, LYING, and rudeness, independent of any company’s behavior.

          1. Angry Young Man*

            I’m not anymore, and I won’t be again. Got a new job a few months back! It isn’t perfect, but the commute is incredibly easy and the pay is great.

            At the time I was desperate, though. I actually wrote in somewhere on here and got a ton of “holy crap your boss is horrible” responses.

            1. Jadelyn*

              I’m glad to hear you got out and got something better! I’m just shocked at the, y’know, lying about a company’s location to a candidate thing. How did he think that was going to go, that you’d find out “oh by the way you’re going to have to move/have a really long commute for this job” when they made you the offer, and be cool to just roll with it or what?

              1. Angry Young Man*

                I think it happens a fair deal in my area, actually. I live in New York City and there’s a fair few tech jobs on the outskirts of the city like the Queens/Long Island border, northern NJ, Connecticut, Westchester, etc.

                I can see why a less ethical recruiter would lie about a job in Jersey City being in NYC… it’s only a PATH ride away! Except you can’t transfer via MTA or bike over to Jersey City, and a monthly PATH pass costs around $95 last I checked. If you hide that fact, you might ensnare some people who are desperate or don’t understand negotiation well enough to turn around and ask for more in exchange for the more complicated commute.

    4. Cat steals keyboard*

      I think your frustration is understandable. I perhaps wouldn’t have voiced it the way you did (the being done part could have been better) but hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        Yeah, I agree. Withdrawing your candidacy makes perfect sense and I would have done the same. But saying “I’m done with you” is a pretty unprofessional way to phrase that.

        1. Cordelia Naismith*

          I want to add — I think your anger was justified, but I think you should have phrased your withdrawal differently.

          But, on the other hand, it’s not like you’re ever going to work with this recruiter again, so…

        3. LBK*

          I thought the follow up to explain the situation was fine – maaaaaybe a little curt, but I actually think clearly laying out the sequence of events and pointing out the consequences of those events (ie the OP risking his current job) is good and I wish more people were willing to do things like that when they’re treated poorly in a hiring process. It’s really only the line “I’m done with this company” that I think comes across as too emotional/dramatic for a professional email.

    5. LadyMountaineer*

      As Alison says “they are telling you something important about how they operate. Listen to it.” They are telling you they are disorganized, disrespectful of your time and willing to place the blame on you for the whole thing. Screw that!

    6. Mike C.*

      I think your response was perfectly fine. Your time should be respected and when people refuse to do so there’s nothing wrong with letting them know.

      1. Loose Seal*

        Mike C., you really think saying he was “done” with the company was fine? To me, that word is more of a personal relationship word rather than a word you use with an employer or a potential employer. (I will freely admit that my take on the word is likely due to personal baggage I drag along.) There are other ways to withdraw your candidacy that make you sound like the bigger person while still pointing out that they wasted your time, gas, transit tokens, goodwill with your current boss, etc.

        1. Angry Young Man*

          Hey Loose Seal (I dig the play on words), Mike C., or anyone else, do you think a brief one-liner email to the recruiter like this would be appropriate?

          “I’m interviewing with many organizations right now, and it’s getting my boss a little suspicious that I keep stepping out for about half an hour in the middle of the day, so I’m really not comfortable with doing it again for this company given the trouble we’ve had connecting. So I’d like to withdraw my application — good luck!”.

          I’ve been rolling around different phrasings in my head (work travel leaves me with free time on my hands) and I think I like that one the most. It does imply you’re displeased, but it’s not adversarial and doesn’t put the blame on anyone in particular.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I think that’s fine, but I also think you could be more pointed about it without being rude:

            “I’ve changed my schedule to set aside time for this call three times now, and it’s been canceled each time so I think at this point I’ll move on with other opportunities instead. Best of luck with the role.”

            1. Angry Young Man*

              Thank you Alison! I’ve been in the professional world for a few years now, but most of my family and friends don’t work office type jobs, so I don’t have many mentors for business communication; striking a tone that’s not adversarial but still clearly Not Happy. Your blog has been invaluable to me with learning that.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                You are welcome! I find that sometimes using a minimum of words, but having them be extremely direct and emotion-free, can actually make the point in a very satisfying way (and can convey “you are a dick” without actually saying anything people could find fault with).

              2. Gaia*

                It can be really tough to learn how to strike that balance, especially if you did not grow up with white collar family members.

                The key is to be factual, succinct, and unemotional. No one can find fault with your words but your point is clear.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Yes! Actually, the headlines here sometimes are an example of that — I try to describe the situation as succinctly and dryly as possible (which in some cases makes things sound quite pointed).

                2. Stonkle*

                  “It can be really tough to learn how to strike that balance, especially if you did not grow up with white collar family members.”

                  This is one of the main reasons I find ASM valuable! I grew up in a blue collar family and speaking professionally doesn’t come naturally to me. Alison’s suggestions for wording help a lot.

    7. H.C.*

      I wouldn’t have used “done” myself, but I would’ve conveyed similar thoughts if they had dropped the ball multiple times (incl. when recruiter try to pin it back on you for having the wrong date [!!!]) and I have no interest in pursuing opportunities with that company anytime in the near future.

      Good luck with your job hunt & hope your future application processes are better than this one.

      1. Angry Young Man*

        This was a few months back, and I have a good new job now! But I want to improve how I interact with recruiters and hiring managers. Most of my experiences with agency recruiters have been negative (the internal recruiter at my current company is great) but that doesn’t mean I should be rude to them.

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          I feel your pain, dude. I’m job hunting now and I’ve about had my fill of recruiters. I know there are good ones out there but there are plenty of crappy ones too.

          And for the record, I’m a GenX-er, and I don’t think you were out of line. Both the recruiter and the company were jerking you around. A friend of mine who is also job searching has a rule about companies. If a company says, “We’ll get back to you by [date]” and then she doesn’t hear anything, she’s done, even if they get back to her later and want to move forward. Her reasoning is if that’s how they treat people outside the company, people inside the company probably aren’t treated much better. I don’t know if I agree with that approach or not, but I do see where she’s coming from.

          1. Angry Young Man*

            I’ll offer a word of friendly disagreement on that: companies have a much stronger obligation to people already on the payroll, whether they’re employees or clients.

            It doesn’t leave a good impression to not get back when you’ve given something, even if it’s like “I’m really sorry but we’ll need another week, things have been unbelievably hectic here” and it makes me much less likely to want to work with that org, but it’s not an absolute dealbreaker. Unless it’s something like calling half an hour late and then insisting to do the phone interview right then or get rejected (I know someone who had that experience at a certain huge tech company), but then the dealbreaker is that the employee’s an ass and the managers hire asses.

            But one of my older (Gen-X) friends who’s a type A sales guy loved that response. Difference is what works in sales and what works for techies are different, I guess.

          2. Gaia*

            As someone who hires, I have to disagree. Any number of things could delay me and unfortunately it just cannot be a priority for me to stop everything and communicate a short delay. Why? Because my priorities are 1. my existing employees and their work and 2. fixing whatever caused the delay so we can move forward.

            If a candidate doesn’t get that, than frankly I don’t want them on my team.

            1. Ann Furthermore*

              I get where you’re coming from, and I’m not sure I agree with my friend’s philosophy about that. But as many of us here can attest, job searching is just about the most discouraging, demoralizing thing there is. I put it right up there with trying on bathing suits under florescent lights. And the worst is when a company blows you off. I’m even grateful for the few that send out automated “thanks but no thanks” replies. That tells me someone has at least taken a look and decided I’m not the right fit for the role, and that their process takes candidates into consideration and lets them know when they’re not going to move forward.

              On the other side of your argument, I could say that if a company won’t even take a minute or 2 to send me an email saying, “Sorry, this is taking longer than we anticipated,” especially when they know I’m waiting to hear from them, then maybe that’s not a company I want to work for.

              Not saying any of these are right or wrong, or that one is more right or wrong than the other, but it is so frustrating to put yourself out there and then……zippo.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Agreeing with Gaia here. It’s not ideal, certainly, and employers should make an effort to get back to you by when they say they will. But sometimes things come up and are legitimately higher priorities. Or someone is out sick or has a personal emergency. It’s an odd thing to make a deal-breaker.

              1. Ann Furthermore*

                Overall, I agree too. But having been doing the job search rigamarole for the last 6 months (after 11 years of being out of the game), I completely understand the frustration.

                1. Ann Furthermore*

                  PS — And this is knowing that 6 months is a drop in the bucket compared to how much time some people spend job searching. And I have a job, so I don’t have the additional stress of not bringing in any money while looking. So…I know I have it pretty good, and it still totally sucks. I really feel for people who are in a worse position than I am.

            3. Blueismyfavorite*

              In 10 seconds you could alert the candidate with a quick email from your phone or text so there’s really no excuse to be delayed without letting the person waiting on you know. You’re sending a message that your time is more valuable than their’s.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                People don’t necessarily have candidates’ info in their phones; they’re often in separate systems. Plus, it takes time to sit down and figure out next steps.

                I’m not excusing rudeness; I’m on record here repeatedly over the years condemning employers who let candidate hang for a long time. But it’s just unrealistic to make this a deal-breaker.

              2. Angry Young Man*

                Yeah, unless you’re THE expert at your field, I think it’s an overreaction to make this a deal-breaker.

                Now if a company/hiring manager takes over a month to get back to you when they told you you’d get feedback within a couple of days, and you’ve moved on with your job search, that makes perfect sense. I think my personal record has been something like eight months between application and formulaic rejection letter.

                Then there’s the incident where I’d applied with one company, and between that and hearing back from them I applied with others, interviewed with one, received an offer, and accepted that offer. Their recruiter genuinely seemed to not understand why I was passing on that.

    8. Elle*

      Perfectly acceptable response on your part. Perhaps they will rethink how they are treating their candidates…good ones are hard to come by.

    9. anon for this*

      If this was an outside recruiter I would be tempted to contact the company and forward them the email chain (especially the part where he called me stupid) to let them know that this individual is most likely costing them good candidates by driving them away with his incompetency.

      I think your wording when you replied to him is fine, and a lot nicer than I would have been given the circumstances.

      1. Meeeeeeeee*

        Yes, this. The company should know the recruiter is messing up here, because you just know that the recruiter is spinning some story about you.

      2. a fast machine*

        This is going to be the best thing to do. The company might not know that their recruiter is sabotaging things!

    10. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I think your first email (done!) was maybe a bit unprofessional but your second email explaining yourself was very good. I also agree with another poster who said that it is probably the recruiter is who you should be done with. Maybe I misunderstood but both misses were the recruiters fault and the one time it seemed you and the company were on the same page the hiring manager cancelled in enough time for you not to step out. If it was an internal recruiter I would say ok – done with the company but if it he is external I would report his errors to the hiring manager if you have his information.

      1. Angry Young Man*

        The recruiter worked for an agency, and the first miss was because of a “miscommunication” that he wouldn’t elaborate on aside it having to do with their hiring manager. He said that not only were they limited to six phone interview time slots a week, but they always called the candidate and didn’t give out the calling number beforehand — that came up when I asked for that after the first missed call as just in case measure. That could all have been an elaborate fiction though, but when this happened over the summer I was really desperate and went along for those reasons.

        1. Pearly Girl*

          Every phone interview I’ve ever had, the company called me — I didn’t call them. It’s how it’s done.

          1. Angry Young Man*

            Maybe it’s a regional or cultural difference? I’ve been asked to call sometimes. And I like having the other person’s office number for that reason; that way I can call them up if one of us is running a bit late.

    11. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think your anger was justified but your response was very rude. I completely get why you’d want to withdraw from the process, but that’s a conversation you should have had with the recruiter, not the hiring manager (the impression I get is that you emailed the hiring manager with the “I’m done”). Call (CALL, not email) the recruiter, say you’re not happy with the lack of respect for your time, withdraw your application. “I’m done with this company” is pretty harsh, and your follow-up email gave a little too much information.

      1. Angry Young Man*

        Oh no, I misspoke then. All communication went through the (agency) recruiter. I never spoke to anyone from their client company directly.

        I actually had a situation a few weeks after that I feel I handled more professionally — company took about 10 weeks to get back to me, then they called up 20 minutes late and said “we can still do the call now” I politely said “no, sorry, but I actually don’t, have time let’s talk to the recruiter and see about rescheduling.”

        Then I called up the recruiter and said that because I had a written offer plus the company being late, I was going to withdraw my application and reach out the next time I was job searching.

      1. Angry Young Man*

        Yeah, I did sorta have that feeling. In the future I’d say something like “with all the struggles we’ve had setting up a phone interview, I’ve actually had some interviews with other companies and I’ll be continuing the process with those companies”, preferably over the phone.

        Weirdly over the phone hasn’t always been possible. I’ve applied to some megacorps where the recruiters will all be located in say, London, and coordinate the process for openings in the big US cities NYC, Chicago, Seattle, and SF. So most or all of the communication is via email.

        1. BobcatBrah*

          Yeah, when I’m pissed at somebody, I tend to be wordy with my emails. It definitely gets the point across, but saves me from coming off like the petulant 25 year old I am.

        2. Turquoise Teapot*

          They behaved unprofessionally and wasted your time, but the thing to do in those situations is to either stop responding or communicate politely that you are no longer interested. By saying, “I’m done with this company,” you stooped to their level. The consequences are that your feedback about their behavior will be taken less seriously, and you may have burned some bridges with well meaning employees of theirs who could end up at more reputable companies later on. You also may have damaged your reputation.

          You did the right thing in that refusing to tolerate inconsiderate behavior is a good business practice. But next time, word it differently. Act more professional than they do.

          1. Mike C.*

            you stooped to their level

            I disagree here. This feels too much like “well they did multiple bad things, but because you weren’t on your best behavior after being treated badly you both did bad things and now you’re equally bad”.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I don’t think “stooping to their level” is exactly right, but by being rude, the OP gives up so much — the moral high ground, the respect of anyone else who might see the exchange, and a bit of his professionalism in general. The thing is, the situation doesn’t require hostility. You can make the exact same point without it – and in fact will make it more effectively because so many people will dismiss someone who sends back a rude response. You have more credibility if you make the point with some emotional restraint.

        3. Anna*

          This is one of those times when it wasn’t egregious, but maybe moving forward you’ll not be quite as harsh. You were absolutely correct to be frustrated and angry (so feel good about that) but make sure you’re not sending emails when you’re feeling that justifiably angry.

          1. Angry Young Man*

            I hope it wasn’t. Again even if the recruiter is like “oh, he was annoyed, whatever” and doesn’t hold it against me, the rest of the stuff that went down between me and them makes me not want to work with them. I’ll keep it at a polite “I’m not looking” or “I actually spoke with that company and decided that it wasn’t a good mutual fit” though.

            I just saw a really really nasty email that one of my colleagues sent our boss about another colleague. The guy being complained about was being pretty awful, but still, I wouldn’t want to be associated with those words, especially not when they’re being stored on some server and are digitally archived for eternity. It made me reflect on this. Thanks for your balanced response!

            1. Gaara*

              A recruiter could also tell the company or others what you said. So there’s a chance you come out looking unprofessional to more people than just the recruiter. I wouldn’t worry about it, but that’s another reason not to use language like “done with you.”

    13. Christian Troy*

      Ehh, I’m a bit torn. I’ve been jerked around quite a bit by certain organizations and it’d be nice to directly tell them that hey, you’re being disrespectful to my time.

      But I also think in the long run, you don’t want to go down that road with people. You don’t know how that can hurt you later on and it’s just not worth the emotional aggravation in getting little e-mail spats with people. Best to stick to the facts and be as unemotional as you can.

    14. neverjaunty*

      Definitely need to work on letting being angry get the better of you, but this recruiter was an unprofessional ass. Good riddance.

      1. Mike C.*

        I think this sort of treatment by recruiters needs to be called out more often. Candidates need to be treated with respect.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Sure, but if you call it out in a rude way, you won’t make that point. You’ll get lumped in with the people who, say, send rude responses to rejection. Make the point professionally without needless hostility and it’ll carry a ton more weight, which is the outcome you want.

    15. EyesWideOpen*

      I have had a recent similar experience. I would have just sent an email saying upon reflection that I do not feel the company and/or position is a right fit for me and that I am withdrawing my candidacy.

      That being said, this recruiter sounds very unprofessional and downright awful. You need to stay far away from this recruiter in the future. Though I may be rather jaded in regards to external recruiters.

    16. harryv*

      I totally understand your frustration but it should be towards the individual and not the company. You missed out on an opportunity at this company simply because of a single employees lack of organization skills. Look at the bigger picture next time. You may never deal with this employee again once your application reaches the hiring manager. I would’ve asked to be managed by another recruiter. Just learn and move on.

    17. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      So this isn’t an ideal solution, but when faced with a frustrating scenario like the one you’ve described, have you considered sending yourself your initial reaction email (as opposed to sending it to the recruiter)? I find this sometimes helps me “vent” when it’s not realistic to vent to a person, and it gives me some breathing room to compose a more professional/unemotional response.

  2. Hecate*

    I am a woman working in a male-dominated tech field in a two-person department for local government. I had previously worked here in this department a year ago as a student worker during college so there wasn’t a training period after hiring – I just hit the ground running. I was hired earlier this year and the position was previously vacant for a year before I was hired. Shortly after hiring, my co-worker was promoted to another position.

    I’ve been overwhelmed for the past few months while being the only employee in a VERY busy department and I honestly believe that my prior experience as a student worker has directly contributed to my success. I’ve been juggling major departments and barely keeping my hear above water, but I’ve delivered everything I said I would. Despite this, my co-worker “Steve” frequently says things like, “Our original pick…” and “The guy we really wanted..” referencing the person they tried to hire first but declined due to pay. He’s also said things like, “Just remember who got you this job” which downplays my knowledge and experience in the field. Steve and I have a mostly friendly relationship as I worked under him as a student worker but he often says demeaning things to me and laughs it off.

    Yesterday, Steve slipped that during interviews for his old position his boss said that he was taking two high-profile department off my workload because he deemed the new candidate, one that they interviewed for 30 minutes, a “better fit”, leaving me with multiple smaller woman-dominated departments. I was outraged that after the first interview for this position everything that I have worked towards is being taken away from me. The departments in question has given me reviews with flying colors. They do not know the true scope of this candidates knowledge, character, ability, or work ethic. They know that he is a man and the department is traditionally masculine (think military). This screams sexism to me. Am I right to feel this way?

      1. Hecate*

        He really is. I’ve talked to him personally and also to my supervisor. My supervisor sympathized but said Steve is their “star player”.

        2. Angry Young Man*

          That really sucks, because he might not even be their star player/top talent/whatever and they might just not want to fire him, like Alison’s written a ton about. It sounds like you’re deserving of that acknowledgement yourself. He doesn’t sound like a great work buddy either — that’s pretty nasty stuff to say.

          Honestly here I get the feeling the only thing you can do is leave for a job that treats you well.

    2. StupidInterviewee*

      Have you guys ever accepted a job only to realise it is so much bigger than you can handle? That is me now. This first work week has been so much hell I am actually looking back at the wanted ads again.

      1. StupidInterviewee*

        oOps, sorry Hecate, I posted at your thread, my bad. But yeah, Steve is definitely an ass. He is not making your life in this new company easier and at the rate he is going, potentially losing his company ANOTHER employee.

        1. Hecate*

          Thank you for your response! And actually what you accidentally posted – that was my first month on the job. If I could get to sleep at night I’d wake up with knots in my stomach. I couldn’t eat. I regretted leaving my previous company. But it got better, and if you believe the company is a good fit for you stick it for a month. My second month is when I realized I wasn’t having the icky feelings anymore.

      2. Kore*

        This totally happened to me when I was temping – the job they described sounded like a pretty standard front desk-type job, which sounded good to me since I was fresh out of college at the time. They didn’t interview me at all, so I thought it would be pretty simple. Then I realized, midway through this, that I actually had to do a LOT of the operations planning for some big conferences, so I was creating diagrams, going to meetings with salaried people with several years of experience, and I had never done anything like that before or even had an office job before.

    3. Althea*

      Yes! Go to him and make him define what a “better fit” means in highly specific terms. Either it’s legit and he can give you some concrete things to work toward to keep those departments… or he won’t be able to do it and you can look at it as discrimination and decide how you want to proceed.

    4. J.B.*

      That sounds irritating for sure! I think your best bet for handling it might be to assess what the impact on you is and going from there. If this change will not impact you negatively (in terms of gaining new experience) probably let it go and do your best work for the departments you still have. (This in that overall the reduction in workload will probably benefit you, consider the long term ramifications though.) If there is a woman you trust who has dealt with these folks before maybe go out to coffee or lunch? Also keep in mind you’re hearing this from Steve and not your boss. You have the opportunity to think through what would be a good thing to say, additional questions to ask, if and when your boss does this officially. Or if your boss is approachable and reasonable, talk to him now. Just because Steve is a jerk doesn’t mean he will completely listen but you need to get your side of the story in.

      1. Jaydee*

        I would definitely encourage approaching your boss and talking to him about it now if he’s approachable and reasonable.
        — It’s possible that what Steve told you isn’t accurate.
        — It’s possible that it is accurate but your supervisor is oblivious to the gender dynamics of the decision and would be pretty quick to change things if you pointed out that the new hire is a man and is getting assigned larger, higher-profile, male-dominated departments while you are getting assigned smaller, lower-profile, female-dominated departments and that it appears that “better fit” means “is a guy.” Be prepared to make a logical case for why a particular department should stay assigned to you or should be assigned to the new hire based on the nature of the work or your relationship with the key players in that department.
        — It’s also possible that the information is accurate and that your supervisor won’t say it outright, but “better fit” does mean “is a guy” and he thinks that’s a legitimate basis for a decision.
        — It’s also possible that there are some issues with your work for some of the departments that you aren’t aware of or that there are other legitimate reasons for dividing the departments up this way even though on the surface it looks gendered. If that’s the case, hopefully your boss will be pretty candid with you about that so that you have a better understanding and can either address any issues or have a discussion about the other reasons for this division of labor.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Am I right to feel this way?

      Yes. And I’m sorry you have to deal with this right now. Very frustrating!

    6. Temperance*

      That’s sexist. Especially if the other departments are male-run and higher profile and the other person is a man. Time to go to HR or circle in your boss, especially since Steve the Jerk is just a coworker and not your boss.

      1. Mustache Cat*

        I wouldn’t go to HR. I’m not sure what you (Hecate) would take to them. But yes, time for a very serious talk with the Boss where you really make clear what you want out of him. Force him to articulate his case; don’t let him rely on “better fit”.

      2. BobcatBrah*

        In a two person department, there’s not enough of a sample size to say if it’s sexism or just being an a-hole. Just because he said “the guy I interviewed” doesn’t instantly mean sexism if he interviewed a guy that he thought was a better fit.

        1. Anna*

          Except, weirdly enough, what she is left with is mainly female-focused and that’s an…interesting coincidence.

          (Define “interesting.”)

        2. Temperance*

          Eh, it’s incredibly “interesting” to me that all the important work has been shifted to this man, and that the male-heavy departments are seen as more important or prestigious.

    7. Kyrielle*

      Steve is an ass.

      Have you gone to your boss and asked about whether those departments are being taken off your workload? If not, do so – and express, clearly and calmly, that you’d like to keep them. (It sounds like you do, at least – if not, obviously don’t do that.) Do start with asking, in case Steve misinterpreted (deliberately or accidentally) what he heard.

      (And feel free, if they ask where you heard it, to say Steve told you. Pretty sure he shared it to take a dig at you, and there’s no reason to give him a pass on that.)

    8. neverjaunty*

      1) Yes you are.
      2) I would take what Steve is ‘relating’ from the boss with a ginormous grain of salt.
      3) A company that allows someone to act like an ass because he is a ‘star player’ is toxic, poorly managed, and very likely overestimating Steve’s abilities.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Also, how are they defining “star player”? Because I have to say, nobody who makes demeaning comments to their coworkers could ever count as a “star player” in my book. That behavior in and of itself disqualifies them from that title.

        1. Honeybee*

          Yeah, I am always baffled by companies who defend the abhorrent interpersonal behavior of employees by referring to them being a “star” or to the productivity or results. SURELY you can find someone who is just as good at the job and isn’t a complete asshole, and in fact, not being an asshole might actually make the someone else a BETTER employee and more of a star.

    9. AspiringCatLady*

      This is soooo annoying.

      I’m a bit confused, though – why, exactly, is Steve managing your workload? The hierarchy is a little unclear. I think you and Steven report into the same supervisor, but the Sup lets Steven run the show because he’s a “star”? So when the new person is hired, it will be you and Newbie on the same level, reporting to Supervisor, with Steve in the same department but in a more senior role.

      So, there are two issues 1) Steve’s behavior towards you, and 2) Workload when the new person starts.

      I’ll start with 2. In my opinion, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be weighing in on this (Steve isn’t shy, even though it’s not his job). I’d evaluate the work and pick one or two key departments/projects you love working on, then schedule a one on one with your boss and say, “Over the past year, I’ve loved working with the Teapot Marketing team, I really want to keep them. Here are the achievements I’ve had working with that department. This is important to me and will affect my job satisfaction. But I’m more than happy to hand off my (equally prestigious) work with the Teapot Design team.” Make a case for yourself. You can’t get what you want if you don’t ask.

      As for Steve’s comments – that’s tougher. I feel like you need to shut it down, but everything that comes to mind is a little icy. Steve’s idea of the original pick is just a construct – this guy could have been useless and you’ll never know. So maybe just challenge him? “What’s your point, Steve?” Followed by, “If you want to talk about xyz that’s fine, but we can do that without these comparisons. They’re rude. Now, about xyz…”

      As for is this sexist… I think it is, but I think you’d have a hard time proving it. Have you had a formal review? Was it glowing? If so, then yes, I think you could go to your boss and say, “I don’t understand what’s happened. You gave me a glowing review, but then took away all my high profile, satisfying work. Can you explain why?” And if that can’t, then I’d consider if you need to take next steps. But honestly, that next step should probably be a new job.

    10. addlady*

      Part of me wants you to turn in your notice, and then walk out the door singing “You’re gonna miss me when I’m gone.” Because believe me, if you do, they absolutely will, whether they acknowledge it or not. But I defer to the other commenters here.

    11. Engineer Girl*

      You nailed it. Steve is twisting the required skill sets to favor his male candidate of choice. This is common, unfortunately.

      Call him on it. Talk to Steves boss on it. Demand specifics of what fit means.

      Make a list of your proven achievements and ask directly why an unknown gets preference over an unknown.

      Ask the hard questions.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        Unknown gets preference over a known. Unless the other guy has previous relevant experience there’s no reason he should get a bigger assignment.

  3. DevAssist*

    Woohoo! I’m here early! How has everyone’s week gone?

    I posted a few weeks ago about picking up a PT job in addition to my FT job, and I have an interview on Saturday for a retail position!

    1. JLK in the ATX*

      I thought I was the only one anxious for this door to open :)

      I have a phone interview at 11:30 (CST) for a PT, short term non-profit gig. Not ideal but it’s something.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I hope your interview goes well!

      I would love to have a PT job on top of my FT job, but my hours are so random and I am expected to regularly pull 12-hour days. After thinking critically about it, I realized that my mental and physical health couldn’t take the strain of another job. Shame, because I would love to have extra money since my FT job pays me a peasant’s wages.

    3. Venus Supreme*

      Hi, DevAssist! Fellow Devo person here. We chatted a bit last time I posted here, I know you like the arts :) Congrats on picking up a PT job. I hope it’s with a company you’re excited about!

      My week’s been pretty okay- my work is preparing for the new federal overtime law kicking in at Dec. 1, and to be honest working on a timesheet now messes with my psyche! I feel like I’m constantly watching the clock and I’m hyper-aware of what others are doing with their time.

      1. DevAssist*

        Hey Venus! Good to hear from you! It’s a retail job for a major department store, but as long as my schedule works out, I don’t mind taking on a bit more insanity for a few months if it allows me to pad my savings!

        Also- I’m excited because the Nonprofit that would have hired me if their new budget came through has invited me to work in their box office on an on-call basis and they’ll pay me for it! Right now it’s only two Saturdays for about four hours each day, but I’m hoping my continued interest will keep me at the top of their list for when they can hire! :)

        1. Venus Supreme*

          Excellent! That is so good to hear. Definitely work in their box office! I got the current FT job I have now because I started out as a volunteer usher.

  4. Christy*

    What questions do you ask to ascertain workplace culture when interviewing? My wife is interviewing for a job because her current workplace stinks. How can she investigate her possible future workplace to better assess its fit? Thanks y’all.

    1. Burr Sir*

      Following this for sure. I’ve tried things like asking them to describe the environment and culture and got an answer that ended up being (in my experience) completely inaccurate to the truth.

      1. Daffy Buttinsky*

        Maybe fishing for specific examples helps. I tried asking about “average days” but I got “oh, there is no average.” But asking about the last project’s timeline, or an example of an “all-hands crisis” and how it was resolved might tell you what they think crises and reasonable timelines are.

      2. DNDL*

        Yeah, they straight up lied about the culture during the interview for my current job. It doesn’t help that Central thinks the system culture should be x, my branch manager thinks the branch culture should be y, and my direct supervisor thinks the department culture should by z.

    2. Is it Friday Yet?*

      Ask if they have a busy season and how they meet deadlines. This could give you some insight into how they value work/life balance.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I ask what the company does to retain good employees. That will tell you a bit about the culture.
      If you get a blank stare, then you know they have never thought about retention. If they give the standard “We have great health benefits and a fair vacation policy” then that doesn’t help their case. But if they say something special like, “We have annual meetings where we evaluate what skills and training employees need and if they have everything they require to efficiently do their jobs.” Then that is halfway to a good company culture. The rest of the way is if they can tell you about a time when their policy/system/engagement routine was successful.

    5. self employed*

      “What do you do to keep morale high? How would your employees describe the culture? Do you have any areas of company culture that you’re looking to improve and how are you doing so?”

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I think this may have come up last week, but I would ask what they like most about the place and what they like least (or what they’d like to change). That isn’t a silver bullet, of course, though it will tell you a lot about what they value there (for example, if people tell me what they like most is the happy hours, I know that’s not the right fit for me). And if they tell you there’s nothing they’d change (because it’s perfect there), run!!!

    7. Althea*

      I ask about lunch culture. You can find out if people eat together or alone, with their team or across teams, while working or is it free time… it can tell you a lot for such a simple question.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Hmmm, I don’t know about this one. My workplace has great culture and we all eat alone, either out or at our desks. That’s not an inherently bad thing– it’s just how people prefer to take lunch.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think Althea is saying it’s good or bad, just that it gives you a lot of information about fit. Some people are going to want a more congenial culture where everyone eats in the kitchen together, others won’t.

    8. Kyrielle*

      “What kind of person would thrive in this position?”

      And any chance to talk to / interact with current workers a little.

    9. H.C.*

      If it’s an in-person interview, I would ask if it’s possible to briefly tour the workplace to get a better idea of its physical layout (where you can also observe how potential co-workers are behaving).

      But otherwise, I agree with asking interviewers what they like most or least, as well as any organizational strengths and challenges they have (be very wary of any who have little/nothing to say about possible negatives.)

    11. voluptuousfire*

      What are the expected hours? This can give you an idea of what hours they well, expect their employees to work.

      It may be 9-5 business hours but its really 8:30-7, for example.

      1. twig*

        One question that I like — if you are interviewing with someone who will be your supervisor: “How would you describe your management style?”

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          In my experience, that may not get you great info. People rarely think they’re bad managers, everyone will say “I’m not a micromanager” even if they are, and weaker managers generally don’t have the self-awareness to give you a truly accurate answer.

        2. Bob Barker*

          I haven’t had much success with that one, but I’ve been working on ways to phrase a question that gets at how/whether the manager helps her employees advance in their careers. Like, is that a good thing, in the manager’s eyes, that sometimes someone leaves for greater things? Would the manager actually help that person, even if it meant losing them?

          But if you ask the question in too-leading a way, bad managers guess what you want to hear. So neutral phrasing seems to be key. I did have a hiring manager volunteer to me, on phone screen, that “we never lose people to lateral moves; we lose people to promotions.” This sounds a little toot-own-horny, except for the fact I am an internal applicant, and… looking for a lateral move into her department. (She guessed, accurately in my case, that a lateral application is a sign of a dissatisfied employee, all without my having to say a word.)

    12. Jillociraptor*

      How do you evaluate your workplace culture and employee morale? How are employees able to give feedback and how do you respond to it?
      What are the characteristics of people who tend to be successful in this company?
      What are some of the biggest roadblocks to success in this company?
      How do you provide feedback and development to your staff?
      What are the organization’s core values? How do staff and management live those out?

      If she hasn’t already, your wife might want to think about what are some of the characteristics of a good workplace culture *for her*. Some people thrive in fluid, entrepreneurial situations. Others need a more settled workplace with clear expectations. Some people work best when they have lots of latitude. Others prefer lots of direction. If your wife is able to clarify for herself what kind of culture would make her happy, she can ask about those characteristics directly.

    13. Somniloquist*

      One of my favorites is when I ask the person why did they join the company and what keeps them there. It’s pretty interesting and I don’t think it gets asked very often.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Hmmm, I hear people ask it a lot and hear them recommend it a lot! I actually really dislike being asked it; I feel like my personal reasons for joining can’t possibly be the best thing they could spend their Q&A time on.

    14. Venus Supreme*

      I asked on my last interview “What is the general culture around here? How does the office celebrate birthdays?” And I got to hear of a couple traditions that one person started 10 years ago that they still uphold, i.e. a mini potluck celebration in February to avoid the winter slump, a little New Years party when the fiscal year ends, etc.

    15. Honeybee*

      I asked pretty direct questions:

      “What’s the work-life balance like on the team?” or “What’s your work-life balance like?” to multiple people, if applicable.
      “What is the culture like on your team? How do you all generally interact with each other?”
      “When people leave the team, why do they typically leave?”
      “What differentiates a good employee from a great one?” <- and listen here for the red flags of long hours, lots of face time, "works really hard," etc.

      I also asked individual contributors what they really liked about working on their team and how collaborative they thought the environment was. Watching their microexpressions before they answered the first question was more instructive than the answer themselves. A lot of people can come up with something canned, but if they have to pause and think a bit before they answer – and that's a pattern across multiple people – I'd see that as a yellow flag, at least. The best places were the places where people's faces lit up before they described their favorite parts of the team and the work. I ended up at a place like that, which is fantastic.

      1. Honeybee*

        And for clarification, I asked #3 to team leads who had insight into that. My current skip-level manager gave a really great answer to this question; it’s one of the few things I remember pretty clearly about my interview and was a big factor in me deciding to work here.

    16. Luv the pets*

      I learned the hard way to beware offices that claim to have a family atmosphere. Some places may be able to pull it off but my experience has been that most families are dysfunctional and don’t have the best boundaries.

    17. Turquoise Teapot*

      What do you like about this company and what would you change?
      In what ways is the company changing? What do you think it will be like in two years? What do you think of these changes?

      The responses I’ve gotten to these questions have been pretty honest. However, I’m still trying to come up with a way to get a sense of how bad discrimmination and harassment are there and how they deal with it. I don’t know if there’s a direct way to ask about that without sounding negative.

  5. Audiophile*

    TGIF! It’s been a long week and I took two days off work for interviews.

    Has anyone interviewed for municipal or state jobs? Yesterday was my first experience with the process.

    I interviewed for a municipal job which has a residency requirement, if I were to be offered and accept the position, of moving within 90 days.

    I also interviewed with a state corporation yesterday, which would basically be a state job as far as I can make out.

    The municipal interview seemed to go well. But the state one left me feeling flustered. Pretty sure I’m going to withdraw today.

    Surprisingly, both moved quickly to the interview stage. Less than a month from when I applied for the positions and was invited to interview.

    I had 3 interviews in total yesterday and ran all over the city. I wouldn’t pack the much in again, it was too much.

    1. LQ*

      I work for a state and have had interviews with both state and municipalities. For my state there are “requirements” that everyone be asked the exact same questions. (Depending on who you ask some people will tell you that they aren’t allowed to ask follow up questions or ask you to expand on something, that’s not true and the good bosses for the most part do.) Answering the question in full gets you more points, so if it is a multi part question making sure to catch all the parts is important.

      My experience has been sometimes it is super slow (like we are hiring right now, it took about 5 months to get the positions ready and set and out the door) and sometimes really quickly (after the job closed my coworker – who is awesome – managed to get everyone interviewed in the next 2 weeks and she’ll be making offers on Monday to bring people in quick after that).

      1. Joseph*

        Yes for the last paragraph – timeframes for government hiring are *all over the board*. Most notably, not only will it vary from place to place, it can even vary for different departments within the same government due to different requirements and/or different levels of strictness in following the hiring practices.

        1. Anna*

          I am currently on the “can be interviewed” list for a county job. I literally do not know if the reason I haven’t heard from them is because they didn’t have to move that far down the list of people to interview OR if they just haven’t got to me yet.

          It sucks.

    2. Dr. Ruthless*

      My first post-grad-school job was with the state. The interview process was pretty whirlwind (I applied and a few days later I got invited to interview the following week…except we couldn’t find a date the next week that worked for both parties, so I wound up interviewing the very next day–in the state capital, which was 3 hours from where I lived at the time. A week after I interviewed, I got the offer conditional on passing the background check. Once I got the final offer, I had <24 hours to accept it, and they were pretty weirded out by the fact that I wanted any time to consider the offer at all–HR was expecting me to say "OK" on the phone call where they told me I had the job–which was also the first time that they'd told me the salary).

      I thought the hiring process was slightly crazy, but my field has a very time-compressed hiring schedule, so it is really pretty par for the course. There was some annoying bureaucracy from the institution, but I never felt like my department was too bad.

      1. Audiophile*

        I just felt based on the way the conversation ended, that she wasn’t impressed and I wasn’t really impressed anymore and that she definitely wasn’t going to offer me job or invite me back should there be a 2nd round. (There wasn’t a mention of a 2nd round, but I imagine for this type of job, that there would be.)

  6. Marzipan*

    My secret graduation for my secret BSc (Hons) was last Saturday! I had intended to tell people IRL about it once it was finished, but now I’ve signed up for a Masters which starts next month, and I figured people would guess I was doing a secret Masters if they knew about the secret BSc, so I shall keep my mouth shut for a couple more years… Mwahahahaha!

    (I know I’m weird.)

    1. Hecate*

      This is interesting! So you received your BS without letting anyone in your professional life know that you were in school?

      1. Marzipan*

        Both my professional life *and* my home life – although I did have to tell one ex-colleague about it, when she and I were both in the same tutor group for two modules. I could hardly hide!

        I do already have a BA (Hons), and I didn’t really need to do the BSc it for any career-related reason, so it was more of an elaborate hobby…

    2. Temperance*

      How did you manage to go to class etc. without anyone knowing? Congrats!

      Also, why keep it a secret? Be proud of yourself!

      1. Marzipan*

        Distance Learning! (The Open University is pretty awesome.)
        I’m somewhat proud of my ability to keep massive secrets for a really long time, does that count? ;-)

    3. H.C.*

      I’ve done my Master’s in semi-secret (won’t bring up the subject myself, will acknowledge I’m going to classes if asked) too. Thankfully, it was mostly night & weekend classes/seminars, plus a flexible part-time job that allowed me to catch up with day classes over the summer.

      And I don’t find the incognito-ness of it weird at all. Personally, I didn’t want to jinx myself with “Oh, I’m pursuing a Master’s too” and then somehow got burnt out or dropped out of grad school with a sizable grad school loan to boot.

      Good luck!

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        I’m in that position right now. I work at a university, so my graduate program is free for me. But I feel that a lot of people brag about being in grad school when it’s not something that makes you special or unique. So I don’t discuss it unless someone directly asks.

        My courses are all at night.

      1. Marzipan*

        I don’t know; I just find it oddly reassuring to have at least one big secret at any given moment. I bought my flat without telling anyone about it until I was literally standing in it on the day I completed the purchase, so I have form for that sort of thing…

    6. MoinMoin*

      You are my hero. Abruptly announcing that I’d sold my house and moved to CO on Facebook with no forewarning or context was very enjoyable for me. I also imagine if I ever have a kid, casually posting a picture of them without ever having mentioned I was pregnant. I don’t know why.

      1. Clever Name*

        I posted a selfie of me holding my newborn niece, and my friends were like, “Did I miss something?” lol

    7. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I had a friend who did this so I guess it isn’t super weird. Although she delivered a double whammy and got married right after the graduation ceremony.

    8. HRish Dude*

      I tried the secret masters. I knew that somehow it’s a lot less discouraging when you aren’t getting questions about when you’ll be done when you just started.

      However, I had to cave when I kept getting pestered about my personal life at work.

  7. WellRed*

    What does everyone thing of the Wells Fargo mess? Not the massive fraud, but the insane pressure of unrealistic sales goals?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Wayyy back in the day I worked for a department store, and we were “required” to open a certain amount of credit lines per month. Thankfully, I left before they fired me for not opening a single one.

      2. Red*

        I’m almost 100% sure the reason Target didn’t keep me on after my seasonal position ended was because I didn’t sign enough people up for the cards. It doesn’t even surprise me that a bank would do something similar.

        1. Kelly L.*

          And I wish companies would realize how short-sighted this is. Like…this is *the* reason I mostly switched to online shopping for my clothes.

        2. Joseph*

          True story (not mine): Many of the big retailers base the numbers purely on sign-ups, while having “customer retention” as a completely different department. So some store-level people will encourage people to sign up and immediately cancel, since it doesn’t come back at all on them if everybody signs up and bails out.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Yep – I worked for a major retailer with a credit card we had to push, and we just had to get applications. If they were rejected, or they immediately closed it, that wasn’t our problem so long as we had applications under our name.

        3. Snargulfuss*

          Oh man, I love Target, but I HATE being asked to sign up for a credit card every single time I checkout. I get so grouchy at the poor cashiers and have to repeatedly remind myself that they probably hate asking just as much as I hate being asked.

          1. chickabiddy*

            I have a Target RedCard (the one that debits directly from checking, not a credit card) mostly for the 5% discount and free shipping, but a major side benefit is that I can say “no thanks, already have it” and the cashier and I are both happy that we don’t have to go through the script.

      3. Chaordic One*

        Quite a few years ago I had a similar experience while working in a grocery store during their grand opening. I failed to “upsell” to a secret shopper.

    2. Anon to answer this*

      About 10ish years ago, I worked for Wells Fargo as a personal banker. Even back then, we were pressured so hard to open accounts and lines for people who clearly didn’t need them, using very high pressure sales tactics. People were regularly fired for not making their goals, which was surprising to me because bankers had to attend 5 months worth of training, which is a huge investment. Tellers had high pressure goals for walk-overs as well.

      I was told to open a few accounts for a woman who had an expired driver’s license, and was subsequently fired for it when my manager denied ordering me to do it. I had friends working there as well that had similar experiences. After I got fired, I closed my WF accounts and told my family to do the same thing, and I’ve never banked there again. I find that other banks try to do this too but not with nearly as much pressure. I LOATHE having to go into banks and I am so glad that technology has rendered physical banks mostly useless.

      1. Anon to answer this*

        I should note – when you open bank accounts, you get a soft hit to your credit. As anyone who tracks their credit knows, these soft hits can make a difference, especially when you have multiples in short periods of time. Credit products would be a hard hit for each product, just to start the process, even if you refused the card. So bankers were already running through the screens before even knowing if people would agree to the products, creating hits on people’s credit each time they came in to speak with a banker. I saw this especially with credit products because bankers recognized that people with worse financial situations would agree to these products more readily and this were easier sales, but they didn’t want to waste the time if the person wouldn’t qualify. So, they’d basically run the application before even asking. If they went to far and actually opened a credit card that the person didn’t want, they’d cancel it, but the credit ding would still remain.

        Additionally, we were pressured to open the non-free accounts very hard. It became a regular thing to sell a free checking/savings account, but then “accidentally” put them into a non-free package, and then also convince them to open a credit card, or set up overdraft protection (this happened a lot w/o even asking), or set up an auto deposit so that they would never see the fees on the account. Even if they did see the fees, by the time they noticed and came in to have it corrected, it didn’t matter to the banker because they’d already made their numbers for the month.

        I only worked there for the training period of 5 months (not in a bank, in a training center) and then I lasted 3 months in an actually customer facing role. It was the worst job I’ve ever had.

        I should also note that people keep making comments on other sites about how much personal bankers get paid to do this stuff – I can tell you that pay was dismal, and the incentive to open accounts was to keep your job, not to get bonuses.

        1. Emac*

          “So, they’d basically run the application before even asking.”

          Do you mean they’d do this when the person came into the bank to talk to someone about their products or to every customer? Is that legal (or does it vary by state)? And is this something other banks do, do you know?

          I’m really curious because as part of my job, I educate new immigrants on banking, credit, etc. in the US.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This must be why my bank tells me that I have been pre-approved for a home equity loan or a credit card. They went snooping around.

          2. AnonAnalyst*

            I believe this is the case, or at least it used to be. About 10 years ago, I went into my bank (not Wells Fargo, but another large, national bank) to deposit some checks, and got the spiel about opening a card. I specifically said I was not interested in opening one.

            The teller then asked me if I would be interested in getting some information about their various credit cards, to which I said “sure,” because I actually was interested in researching some options but I wasn’t quite ready to sign up. The teller told me they would mail some information and confirmed my address. I did not sign anything or fill out any paperwork.

            About a week later, I was shocked, and then incredibly angry, when a new credit card showed up in my mailbox. At the time, I had decent credit but I only had one line of credit, so I was afraid to close the account because I thought my credit score would take a huge hit given my limited credit history. So I ended up feeling like I had to keep this stupid credit card that the bank had essentially opened without my permission.

            Fun fact: the bank told me, during one of the many calls I placed to ask them WTF had happened, that by indicating I would like to get information about their credit cards, I was actually agreeing to open an account. So, by saying I was interested in receiving information, the bank considered that permission to fill out, submit, and process an application on my behalf, and thought that there was nothing questionable about the practice.

            I remember actually saying something like, “what you are describing sounds like fraud” and the person I was talking to acted like I was a complete moron for even suggesting that they were doing something nefarious.

            1. Dynamic Beige*

              Something similar happened to me when they deregulated hydro (electricity). It used to be that there was one company, owned by the government were you could get electricity from. When that changed, I got a call one day from one of the new companies and I said that I would be interested in receiving some information about their services. A couple weeks later, no information had shown up in the mail, and one of their CSRs was calling me to set up my account. I put a stop to that fast. I said to them that I hadn’t agreed to sign up, had signed nothing, just requested information. It didn’t happen and it turned out that a lot of those companies were doing bait-and-switch (here’s your new, much lower price you’re paying which then tripled some point later… oh didn’t you read the small print on page 50?) I stayed with my government supplier because better the devil you know.

          3. Otter box*

            I’m pretty sure this happened to me when I changed my account type at a different major bank a few months ago because the sales rep asked if I wanted a new card with the new account, and I stupidly assumed he was talking to me about the debit card (since I don’t have a credit card through them). It wasn’t until he made some offhand comment about not needing to use my main credit card from another bank anymore that I realized my mistake, but it was too late to stop the pull on my credit. There’s nothing I can do about it, but I’m so careful with my credit that I’m incredibly frustrated with myself for falling for that when, as a former employee in a different high pressure sales environment, I could see all the signs of a hard sell but ignored them.

        2. Bibliovore*

          Thank you for sharing this. When I moved 4 years ago, my husband insisted that we open our accounts with Wells Fargo because they were the dominant bank in this area. (more machines etc)

          We transferred a huge amount of money from our old bank.

          The gentleman who was helping us trapped us for over 2 hours trying to get us to open other accounts and sign paperwork agreeing to odd things not what we asked for.
          We had no idea what was going on and finally asked to speak to a manager (just to get out of there) I kept saying this is ridiculous, lets go to a different bank.

          The accounts were totally screwed up (who knew that it was on purpose?)
          Accounts that were opened without our say so.
          Money was being deducted for fees that shouldn’t have been charged.
          It took me monthly phone calls to straighten it all out. (and hours on hold, and disconnections etc)
          At NO time did I suspect that this was actually corporate policy!

          There is no where for me to vent my steaming outrage.

        3. Central Perk Regular*

          As a consumer, this makes me so angry to read. My husband and I recently opened up a new bank account to combine our finances and the banker tried all of the tactics you listed. Luckily, we were paying really close attention during the set-up process and stopped her before she did most of these things. Prior to visiting the branch, we did research online to figure out exactly what type of account we needed, so we really armed ourselves before going in there. Thank goodness we did.

          On another note, she also would only speak to my husband and not to me, even though I’m the main person who handles our finances and am pretty financially savvy.

          1. a fast machine*

            Is there a particular reason you didn’t just up and leave that bank and go to another? I don’t think I could ever do business with someone who refused to speak to me.

            1. Central Perk Regular*

              Looking back, we should have done that. But the reason we didn’t is because we just moved to an area that didn’t have a lot of banks to choose from, and this particular bank was the best fit for our needs. This bank also has a lot of branches and ATMs in our area, and that swayed us as well.

        5. Honeybee*

          When I was still with Bank of America, I “accidentally” got moved over to the non-free checking accounts more than once. One time it was because BoA quietly discontinued their eBanking checking accounts, which basically didn’t charge a fee as long as you came into the banking centers fewer than a set number of times per month (not hard for me – I never go to physical banks). They changed me to a checking account that had $20/month fees! And they didn’t even tell me! I was so gleeful when I closed my accounts there to move over to a credit union that has free checking AND refunds all my ATM fees.

          1. Jadelyn*

            They pulled the same crap with me with a student checking account. I was barely 18 and just starting college, and my dad (who was funding most of my expenses) had a BofA, so we got me a “free student checking” account linked up to his (big fat lucrative) main account.

            Literally every other month I would see services fees show up on my statement and have to call to have them removed. They would apologize, so sorry, no idea how that happened, of course we’ll remove those charges! And then two months later they’d be back on the statement.

      2. Clever Name*

        My husband and I quit WF right after it was clear that Big Banks (including WF) were responsible for the economic crash. We now bank with a local credit union.

    3. Jennifer*

      These days, it figures? I cannot say I’m shocked that any whistleblowers who reported got fired either. Seems to be the times we live in

      My mom’s bank got bought out by WF years ago and she left within a month. That was before this went down, but it makes me wonder.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Ditto. We left WF years ago for similar issues. They kept messing accounts up, pressuring us to take out CDS or other things.

    4. Mike C.*

      Not surprised in the slightest. When you have that many people doing it, you have to look towards processes and culture, not individuals.

        1. LQ*

          I will say I moved to a credit union a few years ago and it is really nice. (Though they are moving (physically) to a much less convient location and it makes me so sad.) They were very much like the tiny bank I grew up with in my home town. And like the bank from the woman in the Cracked article about WF from yesterday. (It’s a super NSFW site, but they do surprisingly good journalismish stuff for a comedy site.) No one ever asked for ID because they knew me. And I live in a decent sized city, but it was the same few tellers, they were always nice and helpful and even when I was having a bad day and couldn’t ask for the right thing they still helped.

          1. Joseph*

            “It’s a super NSFW site, but they do surprisingly good journalismish stuff for a comedy site.”
            Seconding this. As long as you’re not offended by the liberal use of curse words or slightly off-color jokes, Cracked actually does some very interesting stuff – including a lot of insider information from interesting jobs/places.

            1. Nina*

              Yeah, Cracked has some great articles. John Cheese writes some hilarious-but-true articles about being poor and the mindset behind it.

        2. Emilia Bedelia*

          Once, I forgot to sign a check that I had written from 1 bank account to another. I deposited it at the credit union ATM, and a teller called the next day to tell me that he had held it because it was signed wrong, and I would have been hit with a fee if it had been deposited. He told me to just stop by that day to sign it. When I told him that I didn’t have a car and wouldn’t be able to get back to the bank during work hours, he offered to drive over to my work during his lunch break to bring me the check to sign. They ended up mailing it to my house so I could re-deposit it. My credit union is great :)

          1. Not So NewReader*

            When my mother died, my father was hit with major out-of-pocket medical from her illness. The lady at the credit union, literally, held my father’s hand while he signed the paperwork to take out a second mortgage to pay off the medical debt. He had one lone tear running down his cheek and she just kept talking to him in a sympathetic, reassuring manner.

            It worked out, just as he and the CU had planned, he managed to sell the house and pay off both mortgages with a little pocket money left over. But we weren’t sure it would work out when he was signing that paperwork.

      2. neverjaunty*

        If you followed the recent hearing, Stumpf bragged to company stakeholders about how these sales tactics were improving the value of the company’s stock.

    6. LBK*

      If anyone hasn’t seen the videos of Elizabeth Warren grilling the president of WF, go find them immediately. It’s as satisfying (to see her call him out and refuse to suffer his BS) as it is infuriating (that he barely even seems to believe anyone did anything wrong).

      1. Anna*

        Senator Jeff Merkley is sitting next to her on the panel. When I was in DC for work visiting his office, I stopped and had my photo taken in front of her office (which is right next door) like a total fangirl.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve had a theory that if everyone has the same cascading goal, then you are asking for fraud. If the front line employee is committing fraud and has great numbers as a result, then the manager will get a bonus as well. Then the district manager will get a bonus, then the regional manager will get a bonus…and they all know the results are impossible. But they are all making $$$$, so no one will question it.
      Each step of management should have a different goal. In this case, the bankers need to enroll customers in additional accounts. But the branch manager should be held accountable for the satisfaction of those customers. Then the District manager is responsible for the funds invested in the accounts.
      The all kind of have the same goal, but they are tracking different aspects of it. That is how fraud can be exposed and since everyone has different goals, it is more likely to be investigated.
      Wells Fargo created a nightmare. I really feel for those front line employees.

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s ridiculous that those 5300 employees are getting throw under the bus. If that many employees are doing something, it’s a direct effect of bad management, whether they got explicit instructions to do that or not.

    9. Rebecca*

      I loathe Wells Fargo.

      Years ago, I had a credit card with them, and had financial problems at the same time. I remember the interest rate was pretty high, and I was making progress getting it paid off, but called and asked for an interest rate reduction if possible. I wasn’t past due, I wasn’t over limit, but I was trying to reduce the interest rate so my more than minimum payments would mean something. I think I owed $2995 on a $4K credit line, something along those lines.

      Instead of lowering my interest rate, they looked at my whole financial situation, which wasn’t good, and lowered the limit to $3K, which immediately jacked up the debt to credit ratio from 75% to almost 100%, and of course when the interest compounded for the next statement, I was over limit. I was absolutely furious. About 6 months later, I was able to transfer the balance to another card with a lower 1 year introductory rate, so I closed the WF card, paid off the new card, and never looked back.

      Now that I’m in much better financial shape, with a better than 800 credit score, I laugh if I get anything in the mail from them. They could collapse into the ocean for all I care. I was just a little person, who needed a little help, and they screwed me over.

      I loved the video of Elizabeth Warren giving them the what for, but really, what good does it do? CEO still has a bazillion dollars in his pocket, 5300 low level employees are unemployed, and the stockholders and other executives still have their tons o’ money. I’ll hold my kudos until someone actually gets prosecuted and goes to jail.

    10. animaniactoo*

      I am fervently thanking tptb that my credit score at the time was not quite strong enough to qualify for a WF mortgage and that I have ended up at a bank that I respect and has never pressured me to do anything other than what I want to do.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Meanwhile, a work friend of mine had a mortgage with them, and when she got hit with crippling medical expenses after cancer treatment, they let her stop paying the mortgage while she finished treatment and then put her on a very reduced repayment plan for a couple of years. She said she would have lost her house if they hadn’t done that.

    11. Lemon Zinger*

      My old roommate used to work for Wells Fargo. The sales goals are one of the reasons for him quitting. He worked at a location near a retirement community and he felt awful pressuring elderly people into things they didn’t want or need.

    12. Observer*

      The thing that gets me the most angry is that a bunch of low level people got fired. But NOT ONE DECISION ARCHITECT OF THE POLICY! Yeah, I’m shouting. The Board admitted that it did not even THINK of firing the head of retail, nor curtailing her bonuses etc.

      Feh!

    13. Kristen*

      Argh, Wells Fargo! I’ve been their customer since around 2000. It wasn’t by choice at first. I started out at a small, local bank at 18 which was bought out by a larger, regional bank, which was then bought out by WF. All within two years.

      About ten years ago, I was using their drive up services (probably just for a deposit). I remember the teller asking me if I was interested in a credit card, argh, and I distinctly remember asking her to provide me with more information in the form of a brochure (maybe a mistake), but declined the card. Less than a month later, I received their credit card in the mail. I was angry to say the least. I called and canceled the card right away and said that I never signed up for a card. Thankfully, I had good credit already and wasn’t going to be using credit to buy a car or purchase a home in the immediate future, but I was concerned about how it would affect by credit score (mostly because I was still fairly young and didn’t want “new” credit cards on my report). I never pursued anything more than that, I think, because I was just too angry and I didn’t know what I wanted them to do to fix it. I think if I had known it was such a pervasive problem within WF, I would have dealt with it better.

      I should have left WF then, but have stayed, because it’s a large bank, located everywhere (blah, blah, blah). Truly, mostly I have stayed, because it seems like a big pain to switch banks and I can be a tad lazy. I’m finally going to do it though. Listening to about two seconds of the WF CEO speaking to Congress cemented that for me. Any advice out there on how to go about switching banks? Maybe I’ll ask that tomorrow…

      1. animaniactoo*

        It’s really easy. Find a bank who has the right combination of services you want – likely all of their offerings are available online so you can do comparison research.

        Once you’ve chosen your bank, go talk to a rep there. They’ll walk you through everything they need to open your accounts, and help you set them up. Once those accounts are setup, closeout your WF accounts and transfer everything to the accounts at your new bank.

        1. misspiggy*

          That’s interesting – in the UK your new bank will close the old bank’s accounts for you, transferring over your regular payments and income. And a bank found doing what WF has done would now be liable to pay compensation to all affected customers.

      2. Elle the new Fed*

        It’s pretty easy I found if you open a new account with a decent deposit and then make a list of ALL (and I mean ALL) places you do auto pay or have connected. So paypal, credit cards, utilities, house, etc. First change your paycheck direct deposit info and once that is going to the new acct, then you can start changing everything else on your list over. If you do it over the course of 2-3 months it’s less painful.

      3. Gung Ho Iguana*

        Look at credit unions. They’re like banks but non-profit so there’s less reason to cheat you and more focus on consumers. They tend to have fewer branches, but I do most stuff online and get cash at the supermarket, so I don’t need branches. The NCUA website lets you search for ones in your area.

      4. Clever Name*

        We walked into our WF branch and announced we were closing our accounts and asked for a cashier’s checks. Then we walked into the credit union down the street and said we’d like to open an account. We also refinanced our then mortgage through the credit union so it wasn’t through WF any longer. I’m sure it didn’t affect anyone’s bonuses in the slightest, but it sure felt good.

      5. Christopher Tracy*

        US Bank did the same thing to my mom recently after she went to them asking about loan consolidation and lowering her interest rate because she was having trouble paying all her bills after a medical emergency. They told her her to debt to credit ratio was too high to lower her interest rate, but then sent her a credit card for $5k – after she just got done telling them she was having trouble paying bills in the first place.

        She had words with US Bank, and that card was promptly closed. Unfortunately, I’m not sure she’d have better luck with another bank since they all seem to pull shady shit like this, and credit unions aren’t an option for her because they’re just not convenient where she lives.

    14. Pennalynn Lott*

      It goes to the truism that I developed (discovered, really) when I worked at Microsoft: “As a manager or a company, be careful what you measure.” Because people will do whatever it takes to hit those metrics, often to the detriment of the overall goals of the organization / department.

      If, for instance, you are an Inside Sales manager, you might want to measure actual sales. . . not outbound dials or talk time. Because a person can rack up a lot of phone time without actually selling anything.

    15. Jadelyn*

      I’m just gonna do a quick drive-by shout-out to credit unions as an alternative to banks. I’ve gotten screwed over by WaMu, BofA, and a couple other big banks – but my local credit union has been fantastic. I’ve got savings and checking accounts with them, and I just bought my first car with a loan from said CU. I also work at another credit union now (back office, not operations) and the entire culture is totally different from banks, from what I hear. Yes, our member service reps have goals, but there’s no incentive pay around them, they’re very reasonable, and I’ve never heard of our MSRs unethically pressuring anyone to make their goals. In fact, we had an MSR leave us for a higher-paying Teller job at a big bank, then beg to come back three months later citing “cultural differences” – which she admitted came down to being miserable with the high-pressure sales environment she discovered, versus the member-focused environment at the CU.

      To hell with the big banks, go find a credit union. You will thank yourself later.

    16. paul*

      5300 people is indicitive of a major corporate issue and they fact they’re not even acknowledging that really infuriates me. Makes me upset that my mortgage is with them, but I don’t know if any other company would be better to refi with

    17. MWKate*

      There is no way I’d open another account at a large bank. I currently have an account with a credit union, which I love. I work with community banks, which I would consider if I ever had to leave my CU. Large banks don’t care about the communities they serve – community banks do. (Of course I can’t say all, but as a rule I would say the community bankers I work with are very invested in their customers. I’ve had bank presidents call me to resolve issues with a customer’s wire transfer before.)

  8. March*

    What are some good questions to ask at career fairs?

    There’s one coming up this Wednesday at my old university (on my birthday, no less!) and I know there’s going to be companies looking for engineers, but apart from talking about my recent graduation and that I’m looking for a job in [x] field, I’m not really sure what to talk to the recruiters about. Should I ask about their work culture? What a typical day is like?

    1. dr_silverware*

      From a software perspective, it depends on if you’re talking to recruiter folks or engineers. I definitely like talking to engineers at career fairs more. Some stuff to bring up in conversation, once you’ve started chatting a bit, are questions about release cycles (to see how intense those can get); languages used (to see how they feel about their codebase); how much time they spend writing code (or whatever type of engineering you’re actually doing) vs designing architecture vs in meetings vs documenting bugs/fixes on a given day; what the culture is like.

      My biggest two would be what languages they use and how much time they spend writing code. For language–this isn’t to see if it’s a language you’d enjoy writing in, but to see how they react about it. I don’t know anyone in the world who doesn’t feel like their codebase is too large, but getting into this kind of conversation can show you a lot about what they think of their coworkers’ and company’s product. For time breakdown–by asking about specifics like this, you get a better sense of an average day than if you’d just said “tell me about an average day.”

  9. HeyNonnyNonny*

    So what are your best document control tricks and techniques?

    I work on a team that is…a mess. People resist any sort of ‘system,’ so there are often multiple drafts circulating that different people see at different times, and it’s my job to corral all of the changes and edits and comments together. Word’s combine documents function seems to cause me more problems than it solves. Any suggestions, for Word or otherwise, would be awesome!

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Oh, we have shared drives and folders. But no one uses them…I can’t even get people to include all team members on emails when they send out drafts!

        It is extremely hive-inducing.

    2. StupidInterviewee*

      The fact that people are resist any sort of system has me worried though. Can you first get your boss to allow you rights to restructure the file system? A proposal might need to be prepared.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Sadly, the team I work with will not change the way they work. Even clear instructions result in lots of sneaky one-on-one document back-and-forths. I’m resigned to it being part of working here.

        1. StupidInterviewee*

          That is horrible. Argh.
          We used to have a horrible file system that resulted in a lot of overtime to fix stuff. The restructuring got rid of that overtime and we never went back! Maybe if you tried to reinforce to people that it could stop mistakes and abortive work?

        2. afiendishthingy*

          You can’t put your foot down on it? Tell people they need to make their changes in the file in the network drive (w/ track changes on), and when they email you their version, say “As I said, for efficiency and to avoid errors, all edits need to be made directly to the document on the F drive”? Would you get in trouble for standing firm and not accepting changes submitted via email?

          Because there really isn’t a good way to combine all these edits if you can’t get people to STOP this madness.

    3. NW Mossy*

      Sounds like you need something like Google Docs or Microsoft’s SharePoint, which allow people to collaborate on documents hosted in the cloud at the same time. In my work, I have a related need to have templates/documentation that we can collaborate on, but we also need to then be able to protect the final version against further changes/overwrites. We’re using SharePoint for this now and while it was a big transition at first, people are really starting to like and appreciate its features.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        So some more background– we have SharePoint, but no one uses it. The team just absolutely will not use any new systems, and I don’t have any standing to make them. It’s really up to me to manage my own system of incorporating the messy edits.

        We also can’t use Drive due to agency policy.

        1. LQ*

          I know you say they won’t use it but have you tried sending document links out so people are just unwittingly useing it? Also you know that you can make it so that a sharepoint library is one of your “Favorites” in your windows explorer right? That can be a handy way to, again, make it feel like they aren’t really using sharepoint.

          That said without good support from leadership it can be really really hard.

          Have you tried track changes but without displaying the changes? So turning it on and switching to No Markeup? This lets people feel like they are just making the changes and makes it easier to control on the other end.

          All that said things that have actually worked: My boss’s mandate (and him actually using it), boss’s continued enforcement, including little 5 minute tips on how to use things like track changes, combine/compare during team meetings, and just straight up complaining to people about how much extra work it is and how that means I can’t do because they didn’t turn on track changes. (YMMV on this one, it’s a really tricky line to dance on, but 2 times of, I just can’t make that happen because I have to redo your thing from scratch fixed one coworker.)

    4. Newby*

      The only way I know is to use google docs. Multiple people can edit at the same time. The only other way to do it is to not allow more than one person to edit at a time so that there is only one document (you can send it out as a locked word document or a pdf), but that is really really inefficient.

    5. KT*

      Could you get them to work on docs via Google Drive? People can all work on the same document at once and leave comments, and it tracks your edits

    6. Cat steals keyboard*

      You could use a check-in/out process that allows only one person to work on a document at a time. I worked at one place that had ‘job sheets’ – if you didn’t have the sheet in your possession you couldn’t work on the document.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        I like the idea of a ‘job sheet’– Even if the team won’t use it (they won’t) at the very least, I can use it myself to keep track of different versions and dates of edits.

        1. Cat steals keyboard*

          If you go down the hard copy route you can include print outs of the different versions etc.

          If you are resigned to inputting changes manually it can help to print a hard copy and cross them off as you do them.

    7. Mockingjay*

      First, you need a central repository – SharePoint, share drive, or cloud storage.

      Next, you need a process set in stone.

      – One file only per document.

      – That file must edited within SharePoint or the shared area.

      – Offline files will not be accepted. They will be sent back to the originator to redo using the current, correct file. This is important. You cannot redo the work of, say 20 people and still do your own work. It may seem easier to just fix it yourself, but it really isn’t. They are responsible for doing work correctly, just as you are.

      – Drafts can reviewed using Word’s Track changes and comments.

      – If the system or repository has one, use a workflow to track progress, inform stakeholders that document is ready for review, etc.

      – Provide training. Make it clear that all will be expected to follow the process/use the system within 60 days (set time limit).

      Finally, you need the backing of the Powers That Be. If they are resistant, show them how many hours/$ are wasted trying to reconcile duplicate items, how that impacts due dates, and so on.

      A Document Manager is like the Highlander – there can be only One. That means you own the process and you control it.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        “Finally, you need the backing of the Powers That Be. If they are resistant, show them how many hours/$ are wasted trying to reconcile duplicate items, how that impacts due dates, and so on.”
        This!!!

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Yes, this is really the heart of the problem– someday I would hope to be able to create a SharePoint document and require people to use it, but right now leadership is supportive in a very low-priority sort of way. :(

          1. 2 Cents*

            Could you keep track of all the time you spend on each document that you have to hunt down (and if you could guess others’ time when they see the incorrect versions and have to redo their input) and then bring it to the higher ups’ attention as a bigger problem? I work at an agency that bills $185/hour. We’ve gotten processes changed in a very change-averse environment doing this. “I can either spend 2 hours redoing this document because Bernard refuses to use our process, or I can spend those 2 hours doing XYZ on this majorly important account.”

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      As others have mentioned, I’d use Google Docs for real-time collaboration. If it’s one at a time with Word and you have to approve changes, I would have one person edit the document with Track Changes on, and then you approve or deny the changes, and then send it to the next person with Track Changes on, who sends it back to you to send to the next person.

    9. Mustache Cat*

      This is my personal nightmare. My deep, deep condolences. It sounds like your REAL problem is the team you work with; if people don’t want to change and can’t be forced to, they simply won’t.

      That said, maybe you can convince them to take pity for your plight. Would you be able to call a meeting, either with the entire team or with someone who has the power to implement change, and make your case? Show them the mess of a final document that results when there are multiple drafts circulating at the same time, and tell them that’s the level of quality they will have to expect if they don’t implement a system.

      Alternatively, if no one will follow the rules, you may have to be the rigid one. Come up with a hierachy of editors: say the draft goes to Jane first, then Wakeen, then Jane again, then Boss for final approval. Label each document clearly: Teapot Report FOR JANE FIRST REVIEW; etc, and ONLY accept the document back from Jane. And then send directly to Wakeen, labelled Teapot Report FOR WAKEEN REVIEW. And only accept it back from Wakeen. If Jane sends you additional edits while it’s supposed to be with Wakeen, ignore her. Send the email straight to the trash. Don’t even look at it. And keep going like this until it’s done. People will probably email drafts back and forth in secret, but make it clear that you will only accept ONE document from ONE person, which is the person who was supposed to be editing it.

      Make everyone clear on the rules. If they won’t follow them, simply don’t allow it. It’s rigid and people will not like it, but it may make your work easier.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        I like the system where I get to enforce. I won’t hold my breath for the BossMan to let me implement, but I will keep it in my pocket for my next project and see if I can’t convince the Powers that Be to let me try it.

        1. Mustache Cat*

          I guess I’m unclear on what the dynamic is in your environment, but all you’d be doing is to enforce what work gets sent to you when; it’s not a ‘system’, per se. You’re not enforcing everyone’s actions, just the way that it impacts you. It doesn’t have to be a Thing with you explicitly in charge. When people send edits to you out of order, just politely say, “Oh sorry, I can’t accept these edits right now! The document is with X right now. I’ll send it to you when I get it back from him.” In most environments you’d be well within your rights to do that; you don’t need to lean on a boss or a formal implementation. Again, I don’t know your situation, but this isn’t something I would even mention to my boss in doing.

          1. HeyNonnyNonny*

            Yeah, we’ve got a weird dynamic. We have a lot of higher-ranking experts who are allowed to run roughshod over any system in place because we need their expertise. There would definitely be feathers ruffled if I said I couldn’t accept someone’s edits right away. So for now….stopgaps.

    10. H.C.*

      Instead of combine documents, I typically do compare documents instead so I can see how the changes differ and which version I prefer to use.

      Also, our protocol is for reviewers to add their initials to the end of the filename when they have reviewed/edited the document (so our standard file name might be “Company Policy 09.23.2016 DRAFT ab.cd.ef” if Abby B., Carl D. & Ella F. have already reviewed it – it also gives you an idea of which draft they have reviewed/amended from)

      Lastly, I’d try to establish a linear workflow as much as possible (with the author taking responsibility of funneling through these reviews). I know sometimes concurrent reviews are unavoidable (esp with tight deadlines) but a linear review system ensures changes are reviewed & made more effectively.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        OK, would you mind explaining to me the difference between compare and combine? I’ve never been able to find a clear explanation on what each one actually does, and it sounds like it could be really useful!

        The linear workflow is a dream of mine, but not something I can really implement or enforce right now. :/

        1. LQ*

          Honestly? I’d take 2 problem documents and just run them through to see which one works better, but I find compare tends to be more helpful. Compare puts them side by side and combine stacks one on top of the other. It’s not a good explanation, but I really think that taking the same 2 monster documents and running them through and playing with it will be totally worth your half hour.

          1. Mustache Cat*

            I love the Compare tool, but putting HeyNonnyNonny in the position of having to decide which of the concurrent edits from his higher-up coworkers to keep or edit out exposes him to all sorts of annoyances. Say he likes Coworker A’s edits better, but then Coworker B gets mad about it and is higher in the hierarchy…Or it turns out that Coworker B’s edits actually contained an incredibly important nuance that HeyNonnyNonny is unaware of. He just can’t put himself in that position.

          2. HeyNonnyNonny*

            Oh, that explains it! I’ve noticed that they put the changes side by side, I just didn’t realize that was the only distinction between the two.

  10. Receptionist no more*

    I’m an office manager / receptionist for a team of executives. I have worked here for 5 years without getting a raise yet. I come in early, stay late, rarely take time off and I myself ragged trying to do a good job. They constantly say I do a good job so I have been asking for a raise for over two years. Yesterday I was told I would be getting it finally. They gave me a 5 cents an hour raise. 5 cents. They told me it was all they could afford. Meanwhile all the executives and board members got 5 figure stock options this year and got to trade in their year old company cars for new ones. I quit yesterday at the end of my shift. Today they won’t stop calling me but I’m not answering. Has anyone ever quit your job on the spot? Did you regret it? I don’t right now but I’m just wondering. Thanks!

    1. Audiophile*

      WHOA!

      That’s just…no words. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I’ve never quit on the spot like that, but I think if I was going through what you are, I ‘d likely do the same thing.

    2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I did once and did not regret it one bit. I might be tempted in your case to answer and see what kind of raise they can afford now. Just to have a paycheck while you look for something else.

      1. Receptionist no more*

        Their messages say that they can’t afford to pay me anymore but the perk that they are offering me to come back are 1) Unpaid days off (that I can’t afford to take) and 2) being able to take home the leftover food from their business lunches.

        3. Elle*

          These people are jerks. I’d move on if I were you (sounds like you already have). I have no words…their leftover FOOD??? And unpaid days off? Wow. How freaking generous of them. Some people have absolutely no clue.

        6. Tandar*

          0_O leftovers as a perk? They are clueless.

          I would be less insulted by just being told no to a raise than to get a “raise” like that.

        7. hbc*

          They are a complete caricature of corporate executives. Seriously, the only reason to take their call is so that you can laugh at them.

        9. LawCat*

          Their “offer” is UNPAID days off and table scraps?? You have to wonder what goes through the minds of people that green light making an offer like that. Ugh.

          I’d be really tempted to just send an email, “Your offer of no money and table scraps is rejected. You can send my final paycheck to [address]. Do not continue to call me.”

          2. This is She*

            Good god — thank you! I could not find the right word for my outrage at the leftover food abomination. TABLE SCRAPS.
            Thanks for reminding me. Disgusting!

        10. animaniactoo*

          Dear lord. They deserve everything that is coming to them as they figure out that they will have a hell of a lot harder time getting their work done without you. Even if they hire and train somebody else it’s going to be a long transition period as they get up to speed. They’re going to LOSE so much more time and energy and profit than if they had just given you a decent raise.

          And 5¢ an hour? That doesn’t even cover a freaking cost of living adjustment.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            Right? Dang – and I thought my 30 cent an hour raise at Evil Law Firm was a slap in the face. This is much worse.

        11. animaniactoo*

          [snickering to myself as it just hit me] – The irony of this situation is that you now ARE taking unpaid days off. Forever and ever from them… so they just offered you something you’ve already taken for yourself. How pointless.

        13. Dee*

          Please come back! We’ll ultimately pay you even less by giving you unpaid days off!

          That is a special kind of clueless.

        14. Tomato Frog*

          It’s not even possible that they can’t afford to pay you more than that. I could give you a bigger raise out of what I have in my wallet today. I hope everything falls apart without you.

        16. neverjaunty*

          I can’t think of an appropriate response to these jackwagons that fits within the AAM comments policy.

        17. ThursdaysGeek*

          If they skipped one business lunch, they could double your pay raise.

          I hope you find another job very quickly, and please send us an update. I’d like to hear an update from their side too — how their business fell apart because they lost a vital member of their team because they were selfish and clueless idiots. That probably won’t happen, but at least they are feeling some pain right now.

        20. BRR*

          Wow….

          That is so incredibly insulting. You want a raise and they’re essentially offering to pay you less and give you leftovers.

          I think it’s so freaking awesome you did this. I hope you told them why.

        21. periwinkle*

          So that’s what happened to Mandy the Horrible Director! Once upon a time I worked in a corporate help desk and our boss’s boss’s boss was a dreadful person of the “they should just be grateful they have jobs” type. She actually said that in a meeting, too.

          One late afternoon she loftily dropped by (a rare occasion, such an honor!) with a few mostly-empty sandwich trays. “I thought you might as well have them. We were just going to throw them out anyway.”

        23. EmmaLou*

          They seriously offered you their table scraps…. as a perk?! Who ARE these people? (Don’t answer that.)

        25. LBK*

          I’d reply “Sorry, I think you accidentally sent that email to me – assuming you meant to send it to you dog.”

        27. Clever Name*

          I gasped out loud that they are offering you LEFTOVERS as an incentive to come back. I can’t even.

        29. Mazzy*

          Oh…OK…I was on the fence about quitting with no notice, but this makes it seem like a joke of a company, I guess you did the right thing then!

        30. AnAppleADay*

          Wow. Are they really that clueless and out of touch ? Or, purposefully adding insult to injury?

          Quitting at the end of your shift with no two week notice was perfect. Not answering or responding to the calls is perfect. I don’t know how future employers might see it but I hope they see it as a strength. I do. You deserve much, much better.

          I once worked my first shift at a new place then called in the next morning to say it wasn’t a good fit for me. When the HR person called me back, she cautiously asked if I felt comfortable telling her what had happened my first day. I described how at first, I was very happy to be there and learn fast from my supervisor “George” as he trained me to do my job at my desk. Then the ten o’clock break happened. The workers in the warehouse came in and one woman “Sandra” marched over to my desk where my supervisor was training me. She started an argument with George and he pulled her into the warehouse to talk. She came back in after awhile and sat at the break table fuming and say things directed at me. After returning to the warehouse my supervisor apologised saying Sandra was easily jealous whenever he talks to another female. As the day went on, I learned that Sandra and my supervisor were having an affair with each other while both were married to other people. Sandra left the warehouse a couple times that day to let me know George was HERS and that I needed to STAY AWAY from HER MAN!

          Yeah, no wonder they couldn’t keep anyone in my position. The last two people hadn’t stayed in the position much longer than I did.

    3. Hermione*

      WOW. Good for you. I don’t have any experience with this but I hope you quickly get hired somewhere fantastic.

    4. Construction Safety*

      Whoa, 2 bucks a week!? That’s hella insulting, I’d need a smaller calculator to figure the benefits of that.
      While I don’t blame you for quitting, you might regret it later when explaining an employment gap.

    5. Christy*

      Oh my god. That’s completely unfathomable. Why even bother with the raise? Seriously, that’s a huge insult. Good for you for quitting.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s completely ridiculous, even discounting what the executives got. If you multiple that by 40 (hours per week) and 52 (weeks per year), that’s a $100 raise.. for the year!

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Oh, yes… I didn’t even think of that! So, yes, it’s like a $.70 “raise.” With cost of living increases, it’s actually a pay cut.

    7. RSCanuck*

      I quit a job once on the spot and I did not regret it. The job was awful and I was basically bullied by the director and the assistant director (the organization was so small that it didnt have managers or supervisors so I essentially reported directly to the director). I dont regret it because the job was so awful that I experienced workplace PTSD and depression afterwards, but that didnt make quitting on the spot easier. My whole body was shaking when I did it and I was scared, but it was so necessary in order to protect my mental health.

    8. Pwyll*

      Yup. For 5 years I absorbed every imaginable role in the company without a raise: they fired the HR consultant, the IT consultant, and never replaced admin staff and were discussing having me “crosstrain” with the bookkeeper so they could let her go too. I begged for an additional staff person to take some of the pressure off for 2 years. Finally, they called a big meeting and were very happy and proud to announce that they were fulfilling my request to “bring in additional resources”. An intern. To add to my 3 other interns to manage. I stood up, said, “An intern is more work, not less. I’m done with this. I’ll have a resignation letter on your desk within the hour. Thanks for everything.” Then I left the room, wrote the letter, packed up my stuff, and walked out.

      Never regretted it. Admittedly, a few days later after I cooled off I -did- answer their calls, and I went back in to help them wrap up affairs. We actually still have a great relationship. But I only went back because their voicemail messages were “Clearly we’ve screwed up here, and would appreciate if you could help us in the transition, and we’d be happy to help you find your next opportunity if we can.”

      If the calls you’re getting are anything but that, run far, far away and never look back.

    9. Verklemptomaniac*

      Back i when I took time off from undergrad to earn enough money to finish up undergrad, I worked for a major department store selling shoes on commission (ranging from 7% to 10% depending on the type of shoe). Crappy job, but I worked my tuchas off, was consistently the top seller in the store (if not the region), and was making ~$25/hour, which was fantastic money for me. They’d screwed around with out commission rates before (lowering them without telling us, then shrugging when we found out), but I was still making good money, so I stayed on.

      Then, right before back-to-school season (one of the busiest times of the year), they announced they were virtually eliminating commissions, instead paying us minimum wage plus 1% commission. I was… not thrilled. Store manager called me up to discuss it, knowing I was pretty disgruntled, and tried to convince me to at least stay through the busy back-to-school season, saying I’d make good money.

      I asked him for a piece of paper and a pen, and did the math in front of him. If I had my best day ever under the new system, I’d have made 40% less than I did on a slow-average day under the old system. I asked him if he’d stay if they cut his pay by more than 40%. He said no. I stood up, shook his hand, thanked him for his time, and quit on the spot. (Which is less dramatic than it sounds, because my options were basically “accept new pay structure starting now” or “quit.’)

      2. BRR*

        I was watching the office last night and Jim hit a commission cap. Gabe tried to convince him to keep selling but yeah.

    10. Lucky*

      I’m so sorry that you were treated so shabbily. If you are concerned about finding a new job after quitting like that, you may want to take the weekend to cool off and then call someone (preferably someone you have a friendly relationship with) and tell them why you left. Give all of these reasons – 5 years no raise, then a $.05/hour raise, pleading poverty while others get options and perqs. Then tell them what you want from them – a legit raise and you’ll come back, a good reference if you work out a notice period – whatever you can stand.

      $.05/hour is literally $100/year.

    11. Master Bean Counter*

      I admire your restraint. I wouldn’t have made it to the end of the shift. At the mention of 5 cents I probably would have laughed. Then I would have gotten up and cleaned out my desk and headed home right then.

    12. Mustache Cat*

      Good for you. Everything they offered you was an insult from start to finish. Don’t ever go back (except if they offer you a LOT of money and benefits, but even then, don’t).

    13. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Wow…just wow.
      Next time they call pick up and have a list of questions for them:
      How much did the new cars cost over the old cars?
      How much do each of those business lunches cost?
      What was the combined total of the stock options?
      Was the lowest stock option granted higher than your “new and improved” salary?

      Now that they have looked at all of those numbers…what are they willing to offer.

      1. Blue Anne*

        I think that would be very satisfying, but (personally) I wouldn’t be going back after leaving with no notice unless they offered to double my salary and give me a different puppy to hug every day. Just doesn’t seem like something that would work out.

      2. neverjaunty*

        It doesn’t matter what they’re willing to offer now that she’s quit. Anything they offer at this point would be a temporary “please please don’t make us find somebody else to abuse” that would quickly return to the status quo.

        1. TheCupcakeCounter*

          Oh I wouldn’t go back either. I just want them to do the leg work and then still throw it back in their faces (or go back at better rate while actively looking for better job without telling them I’m looking)

      3. Dynamic Beige*

        I would bet that just one of those cars was probably more than OP’s salary for the year. No wonder they didn’t have any more money left, they spent it all on themselves.

    14. H.C.*

      Yeah, that’s effing awful. I don’t blame you for leaving at the end of day but hopefully you have ex-colleagues there who can be your references & vouch for your work quality—given you’ve worked there for five years and the official company line may be “you quit without notice” when asked by potential employers.

    15. Blue Anne*

      I quit on the spot about six weeks ago. I don’t regret it at all; I’m proud of myself for sticking to my principles. And today I’m finishing up my first week at a job that looks like it’s going to be infinitely better.

      It can work out. I don’t blame you for your decision there at all. Good for you!

        1. Blue Anne*

          I quit without one. I’m an accountant and there were a ton of legal/ethical issues which weren’t being addressed; that can mess with my CPA eligibility. I gave them almost a month of notice, and the next day my boss pulled me into a meeting for 3 hours of emotional blackmail. Left at the end of the day and didn’t go back.

          1. Blue Anne*

            That said, I had already been talking to this firm and was 90% sure they would be making me an offer at some point, and I had another application in which was a personal referral with a very good shot. (I did two interviews with that company, met the CFO and Controller, but didn’t get an offer.)

            So, no job offer in hand, but not exactly walking away blind either.

    16. Happy Lurker*

      I did that once. Eight bullet point job description 3 months later turned into 8 pages, in addition to covering the front desk for 2 hours per day. When I asked my supervisor what my priorities were she said all of them. I quit.
      I didn’t realize it, but I had a job offer headed to my mail box and started in a new position 3 weeks later. I spent 5 years with the best coworker at the next job. I figured it was karma for putting up with all the crap from the last place.
      OP good luck. With your work ethic, you will go far. Good admins are hard to find!

    18. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion, but stock options are utterly worthless. My husband’s company gave him options to buy at around 40 per share. The market tanked and the stock never went up to $40 per share and the option to buy expired. It’s a worthless piece of paper and empty promise.

      The car swap may have been a lease arrangement that gave them plenty of tax benefits.

      Now I will add 2 plus 2 and come up with the answer of 5.67. It looks to me like this is a company that is not on good ground financially. I am betting you will see them go belly up fairly soon.

      I bet you never stay for 5 years with another employer who acts like this one! I am sorry this happened to you. You did the right thing by leaving. I bet you will find something else really fast.

    19. HR Pro*

      I imagine the cost of the HR & payroll time to process that raise is more than $100 per year.

      Personally, I wouldn’t quit on the spot in this situation, but I would immediately and aggressively start job searching.

    20. Venus Supreme*

      Oh man! I don’t blame you at all. I know someone who has quit on the spot. She worked for a terrible man. Not one iota of regret.

    21. Golden Lioness*

      That is horrible. 5 cents is an insult. It’s worse than not giving you a raise at all. And this is after 5 years without a raise!

      Good luck and hope you find a new job where they appreciate you soon!

    22. Elizabeth West*

      I did, for a job that turned out to be a bad fit (on their part). I was hired as a receptionist for an accounting firm, in spite of a personality test they gave me that indicated I was “the wrong type.” A married couple owned this business.

      Three days later, I quit. Reasons:
      1. Procedures were muddy and I had to do personal work for the owners’ church.
      2. They did not tell me until my third day that I would be full-on doing a client’s payroll (work that one of the accountant should have been doing).
      3. Also on my third day, the bosswife screamed at me for accidentally stamping a check with the wrong stamp. I offered to go to the bank and rectify the mistake, but she refused to accept any compromise and ranted at me.

      I went right to bosshusband and resigned on the spot. Her excuse for screaming (provided by bosshusband, not her)–she was tired from moving over the weekend. I told him I did not want to be responsible for a client’s payroll, and I did not think a job where my boss screamed at me was a good fit (I left out the church stuff). They cut me a check for my work and bosswife wrote on it, “Come see us sometime.” OH HELL NO LADY.

      1. twig*

        I think my husband worked for them!!

        He got a reception job at an accounting firm owned by husband/wife with one other accountant there. The wife was supposed to be stepping out of the business so that she could start a restaurant. She was very particular — with no guidance ahead of time — and prone to yelling

        They wanted my husband to be setting up corporations for their clients — with no training. He’s a smart guy and can pick stuff up fairly quickly — but with no guidance, it was nerve racking for him.

        His final straw came when she yelled at him for turning off the radio at the front desk so that he could concentrate.

    23. EyesWideOpen*

      I have quit my job on the spot after approximately 4 months. I worked in an office where the young executives liked to play frisbee and football in the office and were encouraged to do so to blow off steam. One fun thing was to aim the frisbee or football at my head. One day I simply had had enough and quit on the spot. It was the best feeling ever. Plus now I always use the story (the ball throwing not the quitting) on job interviews when asked questions such as what I will not put up with on the job.

      I also once rejected a small demeaning raise after 2 years on the job telling the CEO that I much prefer to retain my current salary than accept this raise. It worked as 6 months later I received a very large raise.

    24. Piano Girl*

      I almost quit on the spot today. We are moving offices and I was looking at the desk in my future office. The secretary came up behind me and started yelling about how that furniture had already been promised out. I replied that I was just looking at it and she kept yelling. When I told my supervisor what happened, I was told, “She’s stressed out” and told just to ignore her. This is not the first time this has happened.

    25. MissDisplaced*

      Yes I did that once, over shift assignments. You do realize you will not get a reference, right? That being said I don’t blame you One bit, and do not take their calls if you truly are ok with that.

    26. Hiraeth*

      GOOD FOR YOU! I am amazed you stayed for five years. A penny for each year of loyalty? PSH.

      I did have some regrets after leaving a job because the time I spent in unemployment was longer than I expected, but I honestly do not miss the stress.

    28. Engineer Woman*

      I have never quit on the spot but if there ever was a reason to do so – yours is a good reason! This company is crazy (who offers a 5-cent per hour raise to an employee whom they consistently tell has done a good job? And prioritizes changing company cars over providing a decent raise to a good employee?) and their offer to retain you is laughable as so many comments have said.

      I wish you best of luck in finding a new job. I think you made the right decision.

  11. Jayne*

    I am very, very shy and introverted and struggle in social situations. My husband is in a field that requires a lot of networking and socializing to advance in his career. I know the wife plays an important part in this, and I really, really want to support him in this way, but I don’t know how do I do it. My main problem is I have no idea how to start a conversation — and hold it– with a stranger. My husband told me that currently it is best if I stay home until I learn how to better communicate and socialize. Any suggestions on ways that I can improve? Any conversations starters or tactics that are helpful in these types of social situations?

    1. Dawn*

      Learn some conversation openers and just let the other person talk- that’s what I do! Then all you have to do is stand there, smiling and nodding, staring at the space between their eyebrows (so it looks like you’re looking them in the eye) and interjecting occasionally with “Oh interesting!” and “Ooo tell me how you handled that!” and “My goodness I bet that was hard, how did you ever decide to do that?”

      1. T3k*

        Hahaha, sorry I just imagined a very giddy person messing up and the person being talked to going “why is she smiling at that for?”

        But definitely agree with the “spot between eyebrows” trick. I don’t like looking people in the eye (must be a habit I unconsciously got from the Asian side of family) so instead I learned to look at a spot near the eyes, like between them, the nose, forehead, to make the person I’m talking to believe I’m looking in their eyes without actually doing so.

          1. T3k*

            Not look an elder/superior in the eye is a sign of respect among many Asian countries, and doing so is considered disrespectful or like you’re challenging them, especially intense staring.

          2. Charlotte Collins*

            In some cultures it’s seen as very aggressive, like you’re trying to start a fight. Also, who gets to look whom in the eye can be based on age/status/etc. (This isn’t just in Asian cultures.)

    2. Workinwoman*

      Maybe a solution is by not staying home? having your own work/volunteer efforts/etc to talk about gives you conversation fodder. Just a thought!

    3. Newby*

      That sounds harsh. The best way to improve is to observe how other people socialize in these situations. I don’t think you can improve by staying home. You should talk to your husband about finding some events to attend together where you can practice or observe without feeling too much pressure.

      2. Yup*

        Yes, I agree, the staying home sentence is harsh and unhelpful. OP, do you feel your husband is being supportive of your efforts? Please know that socializing, especially in a high-stakes environment (career advancement), is hard! Be kind to yourself – you are trying, and that’s the main thing. Please don’t be too hard on yourself.

        Speaking as a shy introvert myself, the main way to becoming more comfortable is exposure. And your husband absolutely should help you! Ask him to introduce you to people (not too many), to stand with you and converse together with the other party/parties, until you get to know them and feel more comfortable. He can also help by linking you with people with whom you might have something in common, or something similar. It’s not all on you!

        Also, how about you agree to a timeline for the next event? Say, you go for an hour, then excuse yourself. Slowly, if it suits you, you could try staying longer. In brief: start small, and reward yourself mentally for how far you’re stretching yourself. Make sure your husband appreciates it, too!

    4. self employed*

      Practice! Go chat with the checkout person at the grocery store. Make small talk in line. Compliment someone on their shoes and ask where they bought it. Do frequent low-stakes conversations and build from there.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I completely agree with this. I am a shy introvert, but you might not guess it. Why? Because I was raised by a gregarious father (who shows introvert tendencies), and I grew up watching how he interacted with strangers. I think it also helps that my early jobs were in retail and food service, where I was being paid to interact with customers. (Interestingly, I was really good at retail, because I could read body language and never did a hard sell.) Unless I’m having a day where I really don’t want to talk to anyone, I model my behavior on how I have seen my father talk to people, and it works really well.

        On the other hand, from my mother I inherited a weirdly approachable vibe. The oddest person in the room will come up to us for a conversation. Since my mother is a very sweet person, she is unfailingly polite in the face of some very, very odd interactions. It was good training for me.

    5. Temperance*

      What do you do? Does your husband support your career with networking?

      I am a serious weirdo, but I turn off the weird when I’m networking or in a professional context. I always introduce myself and say something about the room / event. “Hi I’m Temperance, aren’t these drinks / the decor / the band wonderful?” is my go-to icebreaker. I then ask firm affiliation or how someone knows the host or what they do.

      1. Jayne*

        I’m a receptionist. We hardly do any networking here, but I will need to if/when I start my own business one day. He’s already very supportive of that.
        I like your ice breaker! I’m adding it to my list.

    6. Ian Mac Eochagáin*

      I don’t think staying at home is where you learn how to socialise! You don’t have to be super-extrovert to make small talk with people. Just ask simple things like how they know your husband, what they thought of the food, etc. If there’s an awkward silence there’s an awkward silence – they happen and reasonable people will understand that. They’ll also probably get your a quieter person and respect that. So just go to an event or two – only if you want to, of course – and just be yourself.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        And keep in your back pocket the simplest question of all when you want to get out of the conversation, “Excuse me, but do you know where the restroom is?” Then go. Or, “Excuse me, my drink is a little low.” Then go and get some more water/$AdultBeverage. If it’s really getting overwhelming, take a walk around the block or the building. If these events are held in a hotel, you could go up to the lobby, use the free wifi for a bit, then come back down and find your husband. BTW, your husband should be helping you with this with a “and this is my wife, OP. She works at ThisThatTheOther on Main street” so that you’re just not hanging there.

        Other ideas include
        “How long has your Spouse/SO worked here?”
        “Are all events that $Company holds similar to this one?”/”Have you been to many of these events?”/”Do they do anything special for $HolidayYouLike.”
        Be honest! “I’m sorry but I find events like this a little overwhelming. I work as a receptionist for $ThisCompany and I’m used to dealing with people one at a time!” / “I’m really not good at networking like this, but I’m happy to be here and meet some of my husband’s colleagues. He’s very excited to be working at Teapots Inc. and it’s nice to be able to put some faces to the names.” (because surely he will have said that he has to go in early to meet Wakeen, or Jane helped him with his TPS reports, so it’s not like you have to mention the people your husband hates)
        “Have you tried one of $ThoseAppetizers? They are really good!” / “Ooo, I had one of $ThoseAppetizers and they’re really spicy/salty”

        Ask questions, because people love to talk about themselves.
        Where do you work (if they weren’t introduced that way)/How long have you been there?
        Do you live in the city?/What’s that area like?/Is your commute really bad?

        As a receptionist, surely you’re used to talking with people. It’s not the one-on-one that bothers you (also the fact that they are there for a specific purpose and there is more or less a routine you’re used to) but the crowd. Unless you get really drunk and start dancing on the tables, you are not going to be that memorable. Sad fact of life, but true. People don’t think about us as much as we think they do. So try to come up with your own routine. And what other people have said about talking to people in the checkout line or in stores. Think about what kind of small talk or chitchat you would have with your coworkers at the coffee pot. The truth is, you’re not going to get better unless you practice and by staying at home, you don’t have any reason or motivation to practice.

    7. LadyKelvin*

      I keep a mental list of questions that I can ask people (having recognized what people who are good at small talk do to me). Things like, Have you seen any good movies recently? Have you read any good books recently? Do you have any fun travel plans in the future/travelled recently? Pretty generic that keeps them talking. Then you can take what people have told you (oh yes, I read Gone Girl, it was good) and turn it into the next question/response (oh you should ready Girl on the Train, it is the same genera and also really good, what other types of books do you like to read). It takes practice, so be kind to yourself and practice in low risk places, on friends, family, etc that you are already comfortable talking to. Then it feels much more natural and less panicked whenever you are talking to strangers. Think of questions you can ask that double as things you are interested in. I always ask about books because I love to read. I rarely see movies so its hard for me to keep up that conversation. But those are the ways I deal with my difficulties making small talk. Good Luck!

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you just be supportive? Do you have to go and make your own conversations? In other words, when you’re an event with your husband, can he not ditch you and expect you to make small talk with others on your own? Can the two of you make small talk together with another person/couple/group of people?

    9. RSCanuck*

      Jayne, I am also a very strong introvert and I have a very hard time with small talk. I have to say that I think your husband’s advise is misguided. The best way to improve your ability to network and be in social situations is to practice as much as possible. I know that it can be hard but it is really the only way to increase your comfort level. One thing that I do sometimes is just parrot the question that the person asked. So for example, if someone asked me what I do for work…I would answer and then just simply ask what about yourself? It saves you from having to think about what to ask next. I am also going to guess that doing this will be really exhausting for you…so make sure that you are mindful to do things to “recharge” after these events.

    10. Burr Sir*

      I also struggle with this. I’ve found it’s helpful to remember the person you’re speaking to knows something or has done something incredibly interesting and you don’t yet know about it. Try to find it out. Lifehacker also often has great articles on small talk and recently recommended using an ice breaker question that asks what the person wants to do before they die. It’s a bit bold, but many of the people in the comments thread said they had success with it, though it may seem counter-intuitive. Remember, even if you don’t, most people love to talk about themselves. Ask open-ended questions to get things going and then smile and nod. Find places to practice (especially if you live in a more urban area, Meet Up is great!) and talk to your husband about people he already knows. “Oh, so you’re Linda! Jeff told me you’re really into fly fishing. Where’s the best spot?”

    11. Badmin*

      People really like talking about themselves. Take a genuine interest in them (not interrogate) and I think you will have better results.

    12. Althea*

      I’ve improved my socializing. It helps that my husband is good at it, and I’ve been able to watch what he does.

      First, keep in mind that no one like to stand around in silence. Everyone feels awkward if that happens. So even if you say something odd or ramble or anything, people are all grateful that someone is talking and giving them a chance to react and such.

      Second, pre-plan some conversation openers that work for a lot of occasions. Such as, “Where do you live?” “Did you have any trouble getting here?” “I heard X is happening in town and think it sounds interesting. Are you attending (or, are you doing anything this weekend)?”

      Third, when you are in a room with someone and you are blanking on what to say, do 2 things. Think to yourself, what do I know about this person that I could possible ask about? Sometimes you only know that your husband said the person was a tennis player. “My husband tells me you play tennis. Do you do that often?” And, if you are at a complete loss about them, just start telling them something about yourself or something you heard/did. “I heard on the radio this morning that rubber ducks are floating all over the Pacific Ocean. Can you imagine coming across that on a cruise? Once, we were on a vacation and the owner of the hotel provided us rubber ducks for the bath…” You can even pre-plan the stories you’d like to tell and how you want to introduce them. At some point in the story, stop and say, “Have you ever been to (the place I was just talking about)?” or “That was my favorite vacation – what’s yours? What should I see if I go there?”

      Finally. Sometimes you get to dead air with someone, and neither of you knows what to say. It happens. Some people just don’t click. Remember it happens to BOTH of you (not just you). And that’s when you say, “I’m going to get something to drink” and ditch. In fact, when you start out and don’t have a lot of practice, you’ll do this often. It’s ok. Everyone understands and is happy to escape to a new conversation.

      It sounds like a lot of work, right? It IS a skill. It takes time, effort, practice, and preparation. It does get easier, if you put in the time and effort. It does NOT come naturally to a lot of people, even the ones who make it look easy. Finally, when you’ve worked at it, you’ll get better at figuring out how much effort you can put in before getting exhausted and needing to be in a quiet room with a book. Tell your husband what you need in order to recover properly so he doesn’t overload you.

      1. KR*

        This is good advice – I agree about the pre-planned story. If I have a thing where I have to go talk to a lot of different people, I like to listen to NPR that day because they have a lot of interesting, objective, and informative stories. If I blank on what to talk about, I’ll just tell the person about whatever NPR story I heard that day.

    13. bb-great*

      I second the advice to practice, practice, practice. Also, check out the book How to Talk to Anyone. It has some tips that I’ve found helpful.

    14. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

      I’m currently take a Dale Carnegie course for about the same reason. Only been to 1 session out of 8 and its already helping my smalltalk social skills a lot.

    15. ZVA*

      I’m shy and introverted too, and my new job requires me to meet and talk with a lot of strangers, so I completely understand and empathize! My advice is to ask people questions about themselves. They will appreciate your genuine interest (I know I would!)—the key is, though, that you actually have to be interested… If you’re just going through the motions, I think people will pick up on that—but if you can enter these situations with a spirit of curiosity and even adventure, I think you may even end up having fun :)

      I also like to mentally shift the focus from myself/my own nervousness onto other people. How can I make them feel welcome? How can I help them feel at ease? It helps get me out of my own head and into a more open and compassionate and social frame of mind.

      Good luck! We’re rooting for you…

    16. neverjaunty*

      Wow, what an unhelpful and rude thing for your husband to say. How does he think you’re going to be motivated and confident when he’s dogging you like that?

      The easiest way to talk to people is to ask them about themselves and lots of follow up questions. “Oh, you’re a sales manager? Tell me more about what you do. Wow, hiking? I’ve never done that, where do you hike?”

      1. KR*

        +1 Honestly, being quiet is not a bad thing but the way to help someone improve their conversation skills isn’t to lock them away in the house until they’re not awkward anymore.

    17. Jayne*

      Thank you all for your suggestions and encouragement! I am definitely taking notes. I have a small thing I’m going to tonight, and I will be putting these into practice right away. I’m so ready to beat this!

      1. ZVA*

        “I’m so ready to beat this” is a fantastic attitude. The other week I said to my therapist “I’m so sick of being afraid of everyone and everything all the time” and it felt so good! As a grade school teacher of mine liked to say, practice makes much much better… Good luck :)

    18. Hermione*

      I don’t know if this will help you, but I am moderately awkward in person unless I have a role to fill (perform?). When I run events at work, I am in the zone even in the company of complete strangers because I know what someone running the show would need to say (small talk about the event, point out various locations/directions as needed, and let them know who I am/where I’ll be if they have questions). Put me in the same crowd without a job to do and I’ll flounder for 45 minutes to find the phrase “I’m good thanks, how’re you?” unless I’ve known the person for years.

      I’ve developed a bit of a coping mechanism around this need to fill a role by giving myself one each time I’m in a situation like yours. I find it much easier to be “confident, elegant, gregarious, networking Hermione” by sort-of acknowledging that it’s just a mask I’m temporarily putting on with built-in scripts and attitudes than it is to feel anxious trying to force myself to change who I am and how I feel about certain situations. I built this persona by mimicking traits I’ve found in watching others who are good at these situations, from TV shows, movies, and celebrity interviews, and from “small talk” lists on the internet. It helps to keep in mind that many, many people are equally awkward, and that conversations are two-ways – the person you’re talking to needs to keep up their sides as much as you do.

      People here have given you some great small talk types of questions, and I don’t have any “works like a charm!” ones to offer, but I thought maybe you or someone else might find it helpful if you think of it as a role you’re playing for a short while, mentally attach the scripts you’ve been given here to the role, and don’t worry about trying to force yourself to become someone you’re not. It’s valid that you feel anxious in social situations. It’s valid that you’re shy, or introverted, or awkward – some people just are, myself included.

      1. ZVA*

        I am exactly the same way. It took me til relatively late in my life (early 20s; I’m in my mid 20s now) to realize that I enjoyed social situations ~way more if I had a task to do. Now, knowing this, I seek out those tasks if they’re available (guess who was first in line to offer to serve hot dogs & burgers at her company’s annual “Managers’ Lunch” recently…). And if they’re not, I do exactly what you do: I think of “being social” as just another task, rather than some kind of referendum on my personality. It helps take that paralyzing personal edge off everything.

        1. misspiggy*

          Yes! The thing that cracked it for me is realising that it’s a task of kindness to others. The task is to help other people to avoid feeling uncomfortable, and maybe even have a more enjoyable time.

      2. Hiraeth*

        I second Hermione’s comments (specifically building the persona and acceptance of your introversion). If you want to go to these events, you should go. And I don’t see why other people can’t initiate conversation with you and you build on that.

        (Hi, Jayne, how is everything?
        I’m well, Sarah, and yourself?
        Great! I’ve finished so many projects this week, and now I get to have some R&R!
        Oh that’s nice. Are you just relaxing at home or going somewhere?)

        Just asking follow-up questions has helped me in the past. Also, if you haven’t read Susan Cain’s book Quiet, I highly recommend it. It has helped me to embrace my introversion.

        (And I also agree with others that you can’t practice being social at home. Work with friends that you have or hangout with other introverts!)

    19. Someone else*

      Maybe join Toastmasters? There are several people in my club that joined for this very reason, and they said it helped tremendously.

    1. T3k*

      That’s… wow, a bit shocking. But I wonder, if they’d done this with men instead, would it have gotten such a huge increase as well? Or used a different excuse/gap. Too many “what if’s” to really use this as a standard though, but still interesting.

      2. Joseph*

        Actually, I’d guess that men would show an even bigger increase. It’s not uncommon for women to choose to take a long employment gap when they have children, so that possibility immediately jumps to mind. Whereas stay-at-home dads are far more rare, so the immediate assumption would be “couldn’t get a job”.

    2. LBK*

      I’m not really sure why this is surprising – an explanation is always better than no explanation. Even an explanation that might not help your qualifications is better than just leaving the hiring manager wondering what happened, especially for a pretty huge gap like 10 years.

      If they had compared resumes with no gap to resumes with a gap attributed to family care and the latter got better responses, that would be pretty shocking to me. But thinking about this from a hiring manager perspective, more information is always going to be better to me than less.

      I feel as thought this is meant to be a contradiction to the wisdom about not putting being a mom on your resume or oversharing your personal life in the hiring process, but I’m not sure they’ve really proven that, assuming that the explanation was just a quick line in a cover letter or something similar.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I was thinking the same thing. No matter what, any explanation for where you’ve been for 10 years is better than no explanation.

    3. Elle*

      I’d rather know. I think the human mind has a tendency to want to fill in the blanks, and the truth is often way more acceptable than some of the other scenarios that could come up. You leave a gap like that with no explanation, I’m going to wonder what you are hiding.

    4. Turquoise Teapot*

      I wonder what kinds of names and other info that might hint at demographics were on the resumes. Would the results be different based on the perceived race or socioeconomic background of the applicants?

      Also, only two reasons were given, according to the article, and there was no comparison between them. I suspect “raising a child” would have a higher success rate than “getting through a divorce”.

      And that’s exactly the issue here. The article doesn’t mention that the main reason not to put personal info on a resume is that it can be used in a discriminatory fashion. It is useful to explain a large gap, but “attending to family responsibilities,” would suffice and would do more to avoid discrimination based on family status.

  13. LiteralGirl*

    I finished my large company’s yearly compliance training yesterday. For some reason, the powers that be have removed the “Preventing Workplace Harassment” and “Pay Practices and Policy” from the training. I did, however, as a data analyst working in a strictly administrative building, have to learn about chemical spills. Maybe they’re redoing the training because of changes and haven’t completed it, but I’m confused (and, I suppose, a little dismayed) as to why those were not required.
    Just a vent.

    1. Anon for this one*

      That reminds me, I have some online training I need to finish. It includes HIPAA. We are not a health care provider, nor do we have any access to anyone’s health information.

      1. CMT*

        I feel like this is the kind of thing that just perpetuates misinformation about HIPAA (like the idea if you tell your boss you’ve got the flu, they can’t tell anybody else and that kind of thing.) Not to mention being a complete waste of time.

    2. Mee Too*

      They may have decided those trainings should be separate or part of other trainings. Often harassment training is done as a stand alone.

    3. JustaTech*

      Pointless training I’ve had to take: preventing spills (at the oil-pipeline scale), electrical and foundry safety, “don’t bribe public officials or give things to doctors” (which is incredibly specific, down to the number of bagels you can buy). I work in a bio lab and have absolutely nothing to do with sales.
      At least with our new corporate overlords the harassment training has gotten better.

      1. Ange*

        My most useless one was the anti-terror “how to spot someone who has been radicalised” training. I spend maybe 10 minutes with my patients and most of that time they have something in their mouth so there is minimal talking. I will never use this training.

  14. Bibliovore*

    New employee/new to office culture work.
    We just hired a charming young person, entry level, recent college graduate English as an office assistant/library assistant. Duties include pulling from our archives, copyediting, data entry, shelving, filing, phone answering, processing, and “other duties as assigned.”

    He start this week. It is part-time. On his second afternoon, I saw that he was mylaring book covers. I said “oh, good, Ramona, gave you these to do.” He cheerfully said, ” Yep, busy work”

    I may have reacted badly. I said, “This isn’t busy work. This is essential work of the department and if you weren’t doing it, I or Ramona would have to do it and that is why we hire people to assist us.”

    so do I owe the kid an apology?

    1. SMT*

      I think it’s more important to explain why the work was essential, rather than how it was something he should do so that you don’t have to.

      I don’t know if you really need to apologize, but he would probably value the work he is doing more to know the why behind it, rather than why he has to do it (presumably to free you and Ramona up for more exciting/important work).

      1. TheCupcakeCounter*

        Excellent point. I think it is extremely important to explain the “why”of certain tasks that are essential but can often be viewed as menial or boring filler work.

    2. Simplytea*

      I’m mid-twenties, and I think this would actually be a good comment to hear. Thought not the best feels in the moment, you’re setting an expectation for him that will be good for his professional development. Those are the types of comments you quickly learn to stop making when you’re in an administrative role.

      1. Collie*

        +1

        I’ve been this kid. I am this kid. I still catch myself making off-the-cuff comments that are meant to be sociable and friendly and downplay the seriousness of the work I do as a person in their mid-twenties who doesn’t feel like their contribution is important to the big picture (and, further context, I also work in a few libraries). It’s helpful to hear this stuff, even if it hurts or is embarrassing in the moment.

        1. Cat steals keyboard*

          Good point about feeling like your contribution is unimportant vs feeling like you’re too good for it.

          1. Collie*

            There’s definitely a distinction there and it’s often even more the former when the culture and experience with coworkers reinforce the concept. It’s subtle, though, so I can’t blame people who jump to the “too good for it” conclusion.

          1. Collie*

            And, agreed, but it’s certainly not as valued on a conscious level, at least not in most places I’ve worked.

            1. Happy Lurker*

              Cat – I am pretty sure it took me 20 years to realize that my admin tasks (that I constantly put off) are truly the things that keep this place going! If I put them off too long – all hell breaks out.

      1. Myrin*

        Aaaah, thanks for explaining that! I’m not a native English speaker and have not come across that expression before – I just thought it meant “busy with work” (something I would totally say in such a situation, if only because I wouldn’t know what else to say) and was quite taken aback by the harsh reaction to it, but that meaning makes it understandable.

        1. EmmaLou*

          You often hear it in school as busywork is ubiquitous there. For example, you’ve just learned about photosynthesis and then you have a 10 page worksheet bundle to sit at your desk to fill in on photosynthesis. Or worksheets on your seven times table when you learned that two weeks ago and are on twelves now. Work for the sake of keeping you busy.

      3. GigglyPuff*

        Yes, Mylar is the protective plastic covering that goes over hardback books in the library, or if you’re in an archives, the protective “plastic” slip the record is kept in, if it’s needed.

      4. ScarletInTheLibrary*

        Mylar is the name of the company that essentially monopolized the polyster sheet market. I believe Mylar were bought out by DuPont many years ago, but the name remains in the archives/library world.

        PSA: Not all plastics are the same when it comes to preservation/conservation (and most off-gas in a way that destroys the materials).

    5. DevAssist*

      Ohhh…I don’t know. From your post, it doesn’t sound like he said “busy work” in a sarcastic or rude tone, but I don’t think it was a great comment for him to make. However, you may have come on a bit strong.

      If you think it would help, you could always approach him and say “Hey, I may have come on a little strong with my reaction to your ‘busy work’ comment, but I want you to know that this isn’t something we’d consider busy work. All the work we do and assign to you has merit, and we appreciate having you on our team.”

      1. T3k*

        This. I read it as more of someone being funny and light-heartily going “busy work” but he could have been sarcastic or rude instead. If it was the former, I like Dev’s approach to it, otherwise, if he did sound annoyed about it, I’d say you did the right thing with the reality check.

      2. Badmin*

        I agree with this, even though he referred to as Busy work, his tone suggested it wasn’t something he was upset about doing. I think in the future the framing of your response could have been different such as “This is super important and we’re appreciative of you doing this.” It also takes the emphasis off you and Ramona while motivating/incentivizing him.

    6. Mike C.*

      I think the tone was a bit much, but helping him understand why it’s important is a good thing to do.

      Work can be important and tedious or boring at the same time, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with acknowledging that.

    7. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I think he may think that “busy work” means work that well, keeps you busy, and not realize that it has a negative connotation. It would be helpful to let him know why the work is essential and be sure that most people are going to see that phrase as negative.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        This is what I was thinking. I think, especially since he’s young, he may have a different idea of what that phrase means. I think I’ve heard it used for “work that anyone can do with almost no training or skill”, without the connotation that it will be disposed of or not used after it is done.

        I would have just played up that he’s saving some trained professionals from having to do that, so that they can spend more time designing teapots using those manuals instead of laminating them.

        1. Jake*

          Yeah, I never thought busywork had a negative connotation. It has always been “low level work that you do to keep busy when other, more pressing matters are not tying you down” to me.

          I’d have been shocked to hear the OP’s reaction. In the moment I would’ve just been very confused and assumed that friendly banter with this person is off limits.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            “Busy work” actually means work that keeps someone occupied but doesn’t have much value. So it was a pretty rude thing for him to say! He may not realize that’s what it means though.

          2. Engineer Woman*

            I’m with Jake here. I don’t think the term “busy work” has a negative connotation and didn’t read into it that the comment was rude. It was even cheerfully said as OP indicated.

            OP’s response would throw me off somewhat. I would still think it is busy work but appreciate the explanation of how it is helpful…

          3. Trout 'Waver*

            In my current job, busywork doesn’t necessarily have a negative connotation. It’s used to describe work that requires time but not skills. It conveys nothing about how valued the work is. Given the number of people that are debating this, maybe this is a regional or field-specific thing?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I don’t doubt that people are using it differently, but the actual definition is “work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself,” according to the dictionary.

      2. Oxford Comma*

        This is totally what I thought it meant!!! I am a middle-aged native English speaker with what I think is a fairly good command of the language. I was SO CONFUSED because I really thought busy work was important work that you fit between other work to keep you busy when you otherwise wouldn’t be. I had NO IDEA this word was so loaded!

        I can imagine myself, eager to please and trying to show a good work ethic, saying something like this in an earnest, “Yep, working hard, Boss!” kind of way.

        I’m really glad that I’ve learned hear not to use the word that way:)

    8. Temperance*

      Nope! He’s sending a message that he thinks he’s above doing administrative tasks. I would keep an eye on him.

      1. Cat steals keyboard*

        I had a colleague with this attitude.

        He was asked not to return to work after, among other things, waving his payslip in an unpaid intern’s face* and getting drunk and swearing at people at a works do.

        *I was that unpaid intern. They ended up going me his job.

      2. Ian Mac Eochagáin*

        I had no idea what “busy work”/”busywork” was until I read this thread. Must be an American thing.

        2. Loose Seal*

          Every time we had a substitute teacher fill in (U.S. rural south), we had “busy work” to do to keep us occupied. And they specifically called it that. It was work that didn’t really count toward learning anything new and didn’t count toward your grade. It was just something you had to do so you didn’t get in trouble (and trouble generally came fast and hard when you misbehaved for a substitute).

          So, in my mind, “busy work” does actually mean the task isn’t important and you’ve only assigned it to me to keep me occupied until you find something meaningful for me to do. If your new employee used the term like I would have with my background of the word, I think OP’s answer was perfect.

    9. Aurion*

      I think it depends on the tone in which you delivered the message. If you’d raised an eyebrow pointedly but kept your voice mild, then I think it would’ve been perfect. If you had said the words with a more severe, berating tone, then I think that was a bit much.

      But I think the words themselves were perfectly appropriate.

      1. Bibliovore*

        No, my tone wasn’t harsh. But I like what people said about giving more context to the task.

        And yes, he has caught the flack because previous hires thought they were too good to file, shelve, tray, and pull materials- they perceived that was student/worker work.
        There will be more interesting projects once he gets the hang of the basics.

        1. Engineer Woman*

          Is the new hire aware of this? That in addition to interesting and more intellectually challenging projects, part of his job is to file and shelve, etc? When I first read your original post, I wondered why you would hire a college grad to do the tasks you indicated (or has workforce changed so much that college grads cannot find other work and competing for this type of work that seemingly doesn’t require a college-level education), such as answering phones, data entry, filing… But if this is only part of the job duties – makes more sense now.

          1. ScarletInTheLibrary*

            We have a bachelor’s degree as a preference for our library assistants, but I can only think of one hire in the last four years that did not have a bachelor’s degree. It is not unusual for a large percentage of the applicant pool to also have a MLIS.

    10. Tomato Frog*

      He might have appreciated the reassurance that what he was doing was useful, who knows. I don’t think either of you did anything wrong, but it’s not bad for him to learn not to say dismissive things about the work he’s doing. I think there’s a good chance that apologizing would just make things weird.

    11. Murphy*

      I think you responded OK. I think it’s important for him to know that this work is essential since, presumably, he’ll be doing more of it.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      This was my thinking 30 plus years ago:

      Thinking: “Ohhh.. OP is mad at me for doing this. Maybe I shouldn’t do what Ramona tells me to do? ugh. Maybe I should be working on some thing else? But I have done everything OP told me to do. It must be that OP thinks I should not be doing this mylaring and that is why she said something. Well. I am keeping busy. I know! I will tell her that I am keeping busy! I really don’t mind, even if it is busy work. I can do it. See, OP? I don’t mind, honest.”

      Outloud voice: “yep. busy work.”

      [later] Thinking: “Oh, okay. Must be that OP is not mad at me for mylaring. I guess she appreciates my efforts to help? Yeah, that must be it. I hope she’s not mad at me for calling it busy work, when it really isn’t. Why is it I never say the right thing? I hope OP and I get along okay, I like it here.”

      My vote is give him the benefit of the doubt. To me his cheerfulness indicates that he meant nothing negative about the work. He really had no clue how his answer could be read in different ways.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        My assumption about this is that a mylared book lasts longer and receives less damage than a non-mylared book. So you say to the young man, “Putting the mylar on the book makes it last much longer, which means that we get an additional 1.5 years of usability out of each book, so mylaring is a very important thing for us to do!”

  15. Kat_Map*

    Happy Friday!

    I will be starting a new job on Monday, and I’m both so excited and nervous! I’ll be working for a very small (~5 people) non-profit in the arts sector, working mostly from home. My question is this — on Tuesday, a whole day into my new job, I’ll be required to attend a meeting with some of our board members. I have no idea what I’ll be able to contribute, how to dress, how formal it will be or anything. I was hired as their database coordinator with some webdesign tasks, so I hadn’t anticipated this level of involvement. Can anyone with more profession meeting experience give me some tips or feedback? I just don’t know at all what to expect!

    I hope everyone has a nice weekend ahead of them, and thanks for the thoughts!

    1. JLK in the ATX*

      16 years in non-profit here… business casual is fine for Board of Directors but the best bet is to ask your new boss. Explain that this is a new opportunity for you and you want to make a great impression on the BoD. Your new boss should be happy to help you.

      Many non-profits like to expose all their staff to a Board meeting so they can see how governance takes place and what happens at the top (when you normally wouldn’t be exposed to those kinds of things).

      Perhaps they have a project proposition for you? Maybe they just like to meet all the new people, being its a small staff.

      Have a great time.

      1. Kat_Map*

        Thanks for sharing this! It’ll definitely be insightful to see how things are governed from the top. I appreciate your input!

    2. StupidInterviewee*

      I’d say dress as if you are going for the interview, considering some head honchos are attending. I wouldn’t worry too much about contributions though, you have barely settled in yet!

      1. Kat_Map*

        I had originally thought, too, that I should wear interview-esque attire, so thanks for corroborating my original plan!

    3. Willow*

      For the dress code, they’ll probably be at the normal level of formality for their office, but you could always just ask your boss what the standard is.

      Since you just started, you probably won’t be able to contribute much. But make sure you are ready to answer any questions you’re asked. Have a way to take notes. Again, you can ask your boss if there’s any information you should have ready.

      1. Kat_Map*

        I’ll probably spend my first day mining all the information I’ve been given thus far so I can feel as adequately prepared as I can in the even that I do have questions come my way. I’ll be sure to take studious notes, too. Thanks!

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, definitely ask. Most places I’ve worked have wanted staff to Suit Up for board meetings, regardless of our role or involvement.

      2. BRR*

        That’s what I was thinking. At my previous job, meeting with the board would definitely be suit and tie. I’ve been at my current job almost a year and I still have no idea what I would wear to a board meeting.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Take any handouts they offer. This could be meeting minutes, financials, information sheets, and so on. Check each thing and make sure there is a date on it. The boards I have been on are not good at putting dates on their handouts. As time goes on you get a mountain of paper with NO dates, so it is harder to figure out which papers are relevant.

      You can scan the documents while you wait for the meeting to start, but you can really read them once you get home.
      Put little notes on the handouts or write down key words to remind yourself of a question you might want to ask.

      It’s been my experience that boards whose members get along well do not stick to Robert’s Rules of Order. Boards that do not get along well can down right CLING to RRoO every inch of the way in effort to get through their meeting. Go with the flow, copy what they are doing. Primarily, though, copy what your boss is doing.**

      Try to have an overview of their set up.
      They may want you to assess their needs, extra points if you are able to come up with an idea or two before the meeting. It’s probably not necessary though.

      Ask your boss to clue you in as to:
      if you need to bring anything special
      how long the meetings run
      if you can bring water/coffee
      if you need to bring a laptop/other device
      what your boss expects from you at this meeting
      what the board might be expecting from you

      ** Copy your boss. OMG. I went to a meeting with my boss. We have a great relationship, the people at the meeting not so much. Before it was over, they were yelling at each other. About halfway to the yelling part, I stopped talking and just started watching my boss. She remained seated so I remained seated. The yelling escalated. She stood up. I stood up. She gathered her things. I gathered my things. She turned to walk to the door. I tell you at this point, I was maybe a half of a step behind her. We got out of the room together and never had to say one word because I just followed her lead. This is an extreme example and will not happen to you. But is shows how just watching your boss can be so helpful.

  16. Anonymous Educator*

    Someone very close to me has had professional struggles almost her entire adult career, and I think I know what the problem is—mainly she is a high performer who is idealistic and has no tolerance for bureaucracy or incompetence. I fully admire her capabilities in multiple areas (and I’ve worked with her professionally, so it’s not just taking her at her word), but sadly she’s been unhappy in almost every job she’s had, because—surprise, surprise—every job has at least some measure of bureaucracy and some colleagues who are incompetent (or at least not amazingly skilled with a strong work ethic).

    So two questions for the group:

    1. Anyone else here like that? How did you get through it? Or are you still struggling with it?

    2. If you know someone who has been like this in the past, how have you been able to help that person see that sometimes there’s a value (for your own sanity and happiness) to having at least some tolerance for bureaucracy and incompetence?

    1. Cat steals keyboard*

      2. I haven’t. I gave up and realised some people just cannot be talked out of their reality…

        1. Cat steals keyboard*

          It is, but some people just cannot be saved from themselves and it sounds like she’s quite attached to her position on things.

    2. Rocky*

      I’ll confess this sort of sounds like me, at least when I was early in my career. The only place I’ve really loved working had very rigorous standards and high expectations for everyone (to the point that we had a reputation for being elitist, unfortunately), I worked directly with a bunch of people who I knew were smarter than me, and I had an individual contributor role that was mostly shielded from bureaucracy by my wonderful manager. I have someone kind of like this reporting to me now, and we have a lot of talks about how her colleagues are never going to have the exact same priorities as she does, and how different people in the organization are motivated by different things.

    3. Mimmy*

      Your friend sounds a lot like me, although I can live with bureaucracy to a point. It’s incompetence as well as carelessness that drives me nuts. I’m a perfectionist both with myself and with others.

      1. Rocky*

        I also want to add that I think some people like this really need to work for themselves. My totally type-A friend ran her own business for several years and was quite successful, but is transitioning back to being a regular old employee (for benefits, mainly). I think it’s been difficult.

    5. Finman*

      My buddy is exactly like that. He found his “bliss” by finally giving in and working for his dad’s accounting firm. The small business meant he didn’t have to deal with bureaucracy. Try to help them find a smaller company that doesn’t have the massive amounts of layers, divisions, etc

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Thanks for the suggestion. Don’t know if she’ll take it, but good to know that’s another option for her to explore.

    6. Temperance*

      I struggle with this in my personal life. Generally speaking, I expect everyone to be as intelligent and logical as I am, and get angry and frustrated when they are not. This is NOT me bragging about how ~smart I am, BTW. It’s a huge character flaw that I work on constantly.

      I learn things quickly, and in my mind, I’m not exceptional, so why can’t others do what I do? I’m like Erudite in Divergent in a lot of ways, which … isn’t great. My very patient husband is the one who told me that my brain works a certain way, other people’s don’t, so it’s not fair or productive to get impatient when someone can’t learn a skill from reading an article. (for example)

      The person needs to want to change. Or start their own company.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Thanks. I don’t know that it’s a character flaw, but I do think learning to do deal with people who are less logical or intelligent or competent is a good life skill to take on, and it will ultimately make you less frustrated. Sounds as if you’re dealing with that head-on. But, yes, there has to be a desire to change.

        1. Dweebette*

          I’m there with you, Temperance. It’s been really hard to understand that things I consider easy or obvious or straightforward simply don’t register for other people. I’m in a senior role nowadays, which is somewhat helpful in that I can assign people tasks they can do, rather then be frustrated because they’ve been tasked by someone else sort of at random and are flailing. A lot of people, I’ve learned, can shine if in the right role, so writing them off as useless or whatever isn’t accurate — they just need the right work. So when I realize someone’s flailing, I do still experience this frustration and frankly shock, but then I know I can sort of direct them elsewhere, and hopefully we’ll all be happier when they get a task they can do. But there are times when I have to work with someone who simply (a) doesn’t do a good job and (b) I have no authority to re-task or guide. In those cases, I’m learning the beauty of simply letting go. I’ll offer feedback to their supervisor if asked, and if not, I have to learn the peace that exists in not getting invested/involved. But this is an active effort on my part and one has to choose to make that effort.

      2. Drew*

        Learning styles are real things. I love to read and learn new facts doing so, but if I’m actually trying to pick up a skill, I have to DO it; reading won’t be enough. This has caused problems occasionally when a boss has wanted me to learn something by watching them do it and I keep saying, “Please, let me drive and you can walk me through it step by step.”

        Don’t even get me started on how-to YouTube videos.

    7. Jake*

      1. I’m not brilliant, but I struggle daily with my own frustration with incompetence, be it with coworkers, contractors, vendors, clients, etc. I struggle extra hard when I’ve successfully handled something in the past that is very similar and my coworkers choose to handle it differently (after advice from me and others) and end up making life hard for the whole team as a result. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ll struggle with this for my whole life, and that biting my tongue is better than continually talking about it and making myself more and more disgruntled. The less you give voice to these ideas, the quicker they go away.

      2. Most people I’ve found that have a high tolerance for this have a lot of experience dealing with it.

    8. AnonAcademic*

      Bureaucracy and incompetence are like traffic jams, they are part of life and people who dwell on how terrible they are quickly become tedious. I hate to break it to your friend but I’m now working at my 4th Ivy-level university and there is inefficiency and incompetence everywhere. It might look different in different places (everyone I work with is book smart, many are MD/PhDs, but there are often social skills deficits) but it is everywhere. She can expect the world to change to suit her preferences or she can accept working within the confines of reality.

      My best advice would be to not let her vent to you. Because it’s tedious and borderline rude, and not a good use of your time. Can you tell I’ve had this conversation with my persnickity husband many times ;).

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I guess we’ve met??? lol.

      I am not like that on everything but some things will hit me right between the eyes. Most of the time, if I am griping it’s not because of one thing, it’s because of ten things. The one thing that I am talking about has just sent me over the edge I was already standing next to.

      Things that are helpful for me:

      1) A solutions focus. “Okay you have clearly identified a problem. What do you think are some solutions YOU can implement right now?”
      2) A cut to the chase summary: “You can have X or you can have Y. You cannot have both. Which one would you like?”

      Things that I have used on people similar to me:

      1) “We are all in the same Boat of Unfairness together. Yes, you are correct. This is not fair and it’s not right. {Validation) But we all need to eat and wear clothes. (Reality check)

      2) “Yes, I agree. That law/reg/policy is unfair. I think you should work to change it…. oh you haven’t got time? Join the club. If you don’t want to sink the time into reforming the situation that means that this is not the hill to die on. You have to let it go. Maybe someone else will die on that hill.”

      3) “When you find that perfect place with perfect people, let me know, I want to put my application in, too.”

      4) “You know, many of your points here are valid. But the problem is this is taking up too much space in your head and it’s pulling down your health. You were out sick last week and today you are telling me you have a violent headache. This stuff is eating your insides. Is it worth losing your health over? And how are you going to fix these wrongs from a hospital bed?”

      5) “Pick your most important crisis. I can only do one crisis at a time. Which one is the most important to you?”

    10. Positive Thoughts*

      I have struggled with this, but in the last few years I have made progress with this issue. What helped me was realizing that being intolerant just meant that I refused to accept others/circumstances as they were, and also understanding that accepting how people/circumstances are is not the same as condoning them. Acceptance also means that you do your part, voice your opinion/suggestion, and let go of the outcome. Letting go is not washing your hands of the matter, but rather that you do not take personal responsibility for the process and the outcome by trying to exert control over everything, including the people involved.

      There’s quite a bit of negative thought patterns related to intolerance and I imagine that everyone’s mix of those is different. Now the key to increasing your self-awareness and better managing your negative thought patterns is intrinsic motivation: your friend needs to want to change. My personal motivation was noticing how miserable ruminating over how people/circumstances fell short of my personal standards was making me. I felt silly when I acknowledged how futile it was to devote so much time and energy on (mentally) diagnosing and treating others’ shortcomings when the only behavior I could change was my own.

      Perhaps you can help your friend see the role she’s playing in her own unhappiness and that might motivate her to seek ways to gain more positive thought patterns.

    11. Bad Candidate*

      >.> Are you one of my friends? Yeah you pretty much summed it up. I have no patience for stupidity. And bureaucracy drives me nuts. I haven’t overcome it. I wish I could. I would love to hear other people’s suggestions. I did try to start my own business and it did not go well. I’ve thought that maybe freelancing would be a good idea, but I’m really not good at selling myself.

      1. Rocky*

        Well… I think a key part is getting past the idea that people are behaving differently than you’d prefer because of stupidity. See comment above about intolerance, and below about MBTI.

    12. Snargulfuss*

      Kind of off-topic and I know lots of people think MBTI is total bunk but….I wonder how many of the people who have replied saying “This sounds exactly like me” are INTJs.

      I get super impatient with inefficiency and people that need to go over and over and over details. I’ve been trying to remind myself that some people need to do lots of explaining to feel heard.

      1. Rocky*

        Yep, I’m an INTJ. I think MBTI is largely nonsense, but I admit that it did help me understand that there are different styles of learning and communication, and they’re all valid. And that someone who has a totally different way of understanding things isn’t dumber than I am, and might even be more competent in many ways.

        For example, I’ll never forget the time in my 20s when I learned that many people see work as a series of personal interactions, not as a bunch of processes. Blew my freaking mind.

    13. chocolatechipcookie*

      I struggle with this and could use some advice myself. Maybe suggesting some coping strategies might be of use.

      One thing I try to do, is think of what strengths the less competent person might have. Everyone has their strengths (although sometimes it might not be at the particular job they’re in). Can I get them to help me in different ways? Or what can I do or get my manager to do to nudge them in the right ways to get the job done? For example, implement more checks and reviews or split up the work in a different way.

      Also it is okay to accept if it is not your strength to deal with people who aren’t as stellar- this is a skill in itself (although if you are a manager, it is a skill you should be developing!). In the past I’ve leveraged a coworker (peer) who has more patience than me to go deal with someone to extract the info I needed so I could get to the actual work. Another thing I try to focus on is that I either need to deal with the problem, or live with it. I cannot change the other person but I can change the situation- and nothing will change if I do nothing – so if someone is truly incompetent, then it’s time to take steps to raise the issue to a higher level. Or if a process is really overly bureaucratic or getting in the way of my job, I need to talk to my manager about other options. Or at least ask about why the process is the way it is.

  17. OverwhelmedDesigner*

    I’m in a slump and therefore going anon for this. Is it bad to not want to move up in a company? I like my job, the company and really like my boss. I like the work I do for the most part. My boss’ boss is very much about moving up, gaining promotions, getting more responsibility. He told me a few months ago that I need to recognize opportunities for advancement and take them but the problem is…I like what I’m doing. I like the work that I get assigned.

    I’ve been in charge of video production for the company since day 1. I was hired knowing this. Well…we’ve now decided to make it a priority, like at the level of my other work. I’m a graphic designer for the remaining 80% of my job. I was in video club in high school, but other than that I don’t know video. My boss knew this (I can do basic editing) and they hired me knowing my skill set. But now that this is more of a priority and we purchased new equipment it seems imperative that I learn how to produce high-quality stuff. I feel terrified because I don’t know what all this stuff does, nor do I know how to be creative with it or how to do the things I think everyone is expecting me to do. I’ve talked to my boss and she said she’d look into training and that’s great but I feel like the training I need is go back to school worthy.

    I’m just overwhelmed and frankly, I like just being a graphic designer. I didn’t go into this field with any views of being anything but that. Video is a whole career path, not something I think I can do half-hazard. Is my only option to find another job at this point, since clearly, I’m not capable of handling this responsibility? I’ve been so stressed out thinking about this, and I’ve been trying to watch tutorials and learn the equipment but half the battle is I’m not interested in it. I have been wanting to post this in the last few open threads, but I’ve been afraid of the tough love responses I’m going to assume I’m going to get. I feel like my only path is suck it up or look for a new job, and I’m sitting here not wanting to do either.

    1. StupidInterviewee*

      I am sorry I can’t offer you a solution, but I just got to chime in and say I totally know how you feel and I am very much in the same boat. It seems like everybody and my bosses is telling me I should be moving up! Going into management! Doing LEADER stuff! But my GOD why can’t I just remain at my level now, doing the drawings? I am happy with that more than managing people!

    2. Dawn*

      Have you sat down with your boss and had a heart to heart about how you feel? “Boss, I love being a designer. It’s my passion, it makes me happy, and I am good at it. I want to keep being a designer. I do not know video and learning how to do video well is beyond just doing simple training- people go to school for years to learn how to do video! Given my current skill set I do not believe there is any way that I can deliver quality video at the level that this company needs now or anytime soon in the future.”

      Don’t say that you *won’t* learn it because that makes you look obstinate, but do be completely honest about it being so far out of your field of expertise that it doesn’t make sense to have you do it. I think most people who aren’t in a creative field are like “Oh you do ‘art’ and this is ‘art’ and so you can totally do it!” when they wouldn’t dream of asking a CPA to be a mortgage lender in addition to a CPA.

      1. OverwhelmedDesigner*

        I did. She was wonderful and completely understood but also seemed to have a bit of a deer in headlights look about it. She and I are basically twins when it comes to our skillsets (she obviously has more experience, but we both do the same job just for different audiences), so she understood where I was coming from.

        She immediately went to her boss, who went to his boss to talk about training for me. Her advice was bringing someone in to train me in a bootcamp setting. It’s all well and good but I just feel so much pressure and nothing has been done yet, so it still seems overwhelming. I’m also ashamed at how bad my video is, and I HATE putting out subpar work so that is stressing me out too.

    3. A*

      Oof. Do the powers that be not realize that video production is a whole other animal from graphic design? I mean, yes, both are visual but that’s where the similarities end. Plus, making videos with high production value is not a skill that one learns overnight or even in a bootcamp! I am really sorry you’re going through this. I would probably be looking around.

      1. OverwhelmedDesigner*

        I don’t think they realize that video production is that different from graphic design. I think they thought that if they upgraded my equipment it would be magically better…I am trying to learn as much as I can, but I don’t think that people realize it’s not easy. People do express that it’s intimidating to see all the equipment, but VIPs seem to think it’s all a matter of training. I really want to stress that everyone has been really kind about this and no one is yelling at me or insinuating I’m doing a bad job at all.

        They spent a ton of money on this but a VIP recently mentioned to me something about making a video for customers, like a commercial, and I almost had a panic attack. I am definitely nowhere near that level of skill.

        1. annejumps*

          I was wondering if this was a case of them assuming creative stuff was easy, like recording something on your phone.

          Recently we had a client who wanted “training videos,” and after some meetings we realized (tech writers) that they actually wanted interactive Adobe Captivate videos, for computer-based training. Well, we don’t do that; that’s an entirely different discipline, and if they wanted that they’d need to hire contractors who specialized in creating training courses, with interactive components and voiceover tracks. My coworker told our boss that this would be a full-time job for three people that would take a year to create a course, and told the client we’d be happy to assist the consultant if they hired one for this (as part of a major corporation, they were used to professional training courses and assumed we did that, apparently, since no one really seems to get what tech writing is).

          If they want to invest in making a video for customers they can invest in hiring someone who specializes in creating marketing videos.

    4. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      Wow.

      If it helps, this all is in my wheelhouse (we have designers, we also have some video production), and I think this situation is crazy. While it is possible that your designer might also be a good candidate to move into video production, it’s also possible that the receptionist or the inventory clerk would be. I would never assume that a designer was interested in or skilled at video production.

      You aren’t the one off base here. They are the ones off base!

      1. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

        Our video production specialist btw is someone who started out in sales for us, who went to film school for college. He’s not an artist. He’s a video producer! I’d certainly never ask him to do graphic design, that would be nuts.

    5. Rookie Biz Chick*

      Is there potential to consider outsourcing the video production and you manage the contractor, content, and the process? Sounds like you are plenty creative and have knowledge of the company to guide video projects, so perhaps you could pitch it that way, and keep your design work intact while still contributing to the video initiative? Justify the additional costs with the rationale that professionals will deliver a superior product in less time.

    6. MissGirl*

      I don’t know if what they want you to do is possible in the quality they want, but I do have a perspective of jobs changing responsibilities and having to adapt. I was a print book designer. We started an ebook initiative and everyone wanted me to convert our titles to ebooks and I knew zero code. I found coding tedious and boring. This was back before there were services and programs to streamline the process. Also our books were filled with photos and design that they wanted to convert over with text.

      Though I didn’t want to, it was now part of my job. I took night classes on html and css, watched tutorials, and threw myself into it. It was definitely a learning process, and I’d be embarrassed now to show anyone the first efforts. Luckily I had a company who was patient with my efforts. By the time I left that job, I’d created hundreds of ebooks and was very well versed in CSS, which made me a stronger job candidate.

      Every job changes. Whether it’s new technology, responsibilities, or market shifts; you can count on change. To be a valuable employee, be flexible and open to these changes. Maybe you’re right and this is beyond you, but what if you’re wrong? Take some classes, make an effort; at the end, you may go back to what you were doing but you may enjoy the new challenge. Thirty years from now I guarantee you won’t be doing the same thing you are today.

      1. Simms*

        This is like asking a cartoonist who does weekly comics to suddenly do full animation. Sure they are similar but the reality is the end product will not look as good as someone who actually had the experience and training to do it as a career. This is beyond just picking up extra duties in your extra time or learning to do.

    7. LoFlo*

      Are there positions on the org chart for you to be promoted into? I would be weary of being told I need to take on more responsibility to qualify for a promotion to a position that doesn’t exist.

    8. Wheezy Weasel*

      I’ve found it valuable to get together with the bosses and demonstrate the level of competence that I have in terms of work product and set realistic expectations, but use someone else’s product as an example. For instance, show them a video that I’ve previously shot and lightly edited in something like iMovie or Camtasia Studio and say ‘is this the quality of video that you want? I can do that right now or a month from now’. Then show them something more advanced where you think you might be after a bootcamp-type session and lots of practice in your 20% time allocation, and say ‘I estimate it will take me 6 months to produce work at this level, given that I’ll need X hours per day, Y dollars in training, and that you’re OK with the timeline’. Finally, show them something completely whiz-bang that you know you’ll never be able to do with the time, money and tools available in your job, and say ‘We’re not able to do this type of work in-house, and we’ll never be able to do it based on my talent and our staffing’

      You may be surprised that the expected work product is only slightly higher than what you’re able to do right now. If their expectations are too high, hey’ll appreciate knowing that it won’t ever be possible to produce super-bowl commercial quality videos.

      Also, if your position allows you to ask the tough questions, find out what other types of video content are your competitors doing. Would increasing the quality of the video in your company have a measurable gain/return on investment?

  18. i don't have a name*

    So, a recruiter contacted me about a job and when we had our phone call, something weird came up.

    Recruiter: What’s your current salary?
    Me: I’m not comfortable providing that information, but if the salary listed in the job description you sent me is accurate, that range is okay with me.
    Recruiter: Why can’t you give me your current salary?
    Me: I prefer not to give out private financial information.
    Recruiter: Well, I’d like to know it because this job has a history of problems with salary and it not being what candidates expect.
    Me: Is the salary range in the listing accurate? Because my range is within that. I’m looking for $X-$Y.

    The recruiter never mentioned if the listing is accurate.

    After that conversation, the recruiter described the role in more detail. It’s a Digital Product Manager job where the role will work to combine 7 – 9 existing platforms/apps into one. After we spoke about it and set up an interview with the hiring managers, I thought it over and I can see why the salary might be trouble for anyone. That seems like a lot of work for a salary range of $70K – $95K. The $70K would still be a bump for me, though I did say my range was $80K – $90K, but I’m worried that it is underpaying for the amount of work that needs to be done and how to convey that in the interview.

    I want to ask the hiring manager and team I’m interviewing with about what the recruiter said, but I don’t know if it’ll come off as aggressive is I ask about the recruiter saying that the role has been hard to fill and the salary isn’t desirable.

    1. Dawn*

      I think it’d be totally fine to ask the manager about the recruiter saying the role has been hard to fill- don’t bring up the salary thing, just see what the hiring manager has to say about why the role is hard to fill and go from there.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m worried that it is underpaying for the amount of work that needs to be done and how to convey that in the interview.

      I don’t think you need to convey that in the interview. You’ve already made it clear to the recruiter that your range is within what’s posted up ($70K-$95K). At this point, I’d wait until a job offer to negotiate what makes sense. In the meantime, really determine through the interview process what the position actually entails.

      For the same reason they shouldn’t judge you based on your salary history, you shouldn’t judge the position by your work history or the title of the job. Judge the position for itself. If it’s a lot more / different work from what the title would usually suggest, that justifies a salary bump from what the market would usually dictate for that title.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Recruiter: Well, I’d like to know it because this job has a history of problems with salary and it not being what candidates expect.

      And it didn’t occur to them that they could avoid these problems by revealing their salary range?

      1. i don't have a name*

        The strange thing is that the job listing DOES have the salary listed. The recruiter just wouldn’t confirm if that was still accurate information.

        This company is very good about listing salaries for all positions, along with percentage ranges for raises and bonuses, which is why I thought it was weird that the recruiter wouldn’t confirm if the listed salary was accurate.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        And it didn’t occur to them that they could avoid these problems by revealing their salary range?

        Or that they could avoid these problems by paying what the candidates expect for what the position demands?

      3. Joseph*

        Well, they give the range, but it’s still a really strange response. Like, if you’re listing the salary range than any candidate who applies should expect a salary in that range. And if you keep getting candidates who aren’t satisfied with your salary range, something is wrong.
        Also worth noting that if those are real numbers, $70k-$95k is actually a pretty big range. I don’t know about your industry, but in many industries, a 25% salary difference is at least one full level of employment. So that’s pretty strange on its’ own.

        1. i don't have a name*

          This is one of the reasons I was wary after ending the call. Not only is it a big range, but the fact that the recruiter has said that the salary has been a problem for the job led me to believe that maybe there’s more work involved that would require a higher salary, especially after I heard what the job entails – or that they offer at the lower end of the range instead of somewhere in the middle.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            It could also be that they’re saying $70K-$95K, but they’re always going to lean more toward the $70K than the $95K part of the range.

          2. Turquoise Teapot*

            Ok, preparing to get flamed on this one, but here it is.

            Product management, in some organizations, can be a role where women with technical skills get sidelined. It is a vital role that requires a highly specialized set of skills. But because it’s gendered female in the tech world, it’s undervalued. That could be part of what’s at play here.

            The contradictory thing about all of that is that a great product manager actually has a very broad skill set. I mean, ideally, you’re a full stack developer with a big picture mindset. If you run into another low salary, emphasize your tech skills and mention other highly paid roles you’d be qualified for.

    4. Turquoise Teapot*

      Ouch. Product manager salaries vary greatly by location, but I’ve never seen one under six figures (unless the title is misleading, which doesn’t sound like it’s the case here).

      The way the recruiter pressured you into giving out that information is a huge red flag about the company. I’d proceed with caution. But if this happens in the future, you could forward them some general info about salaries for that type of role instead of disclosing what you make. (And if they keep pressuring you after you’ve politely declined and tried to be helpful, stop responding or let them know you’re no longer interested.)

  19. Anon for this one*

    I have a friend who worked at a large box store. She was forced by her manager to give him oral sex in his office. She reported it, filed an official police report, etc.

    The store tape that her husband was shown that collaborates her story on the timing of the incident has gone “missing” now. (The tape also shows him following her around the employee area just out of sight after the face rape)

    The store has been asking other employees if she’s flirty at work etc.

    Another manager that is a friend of her husbands was let go for insubordination right after returning from medical leave…

    The DA in the area is being charged with showing assault victims and employee porn. It’s also worth noting that her case has been closed pending DNA evidence. They man obviously denied it.

    This is in IL. Any of the lawyers have advice for me to give them?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’m not a lawyer, but I know that your friend needs to hire a good one. This is really a criminal issue that needs to be dealt with by people familiar with the situation.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Oh, most definitely. They have spoken to a lawyer, who was basically not interested in taking the case. Because, these cases rarely win, as we know. Plus without any hard evidence I’m sure it’s going to be he said, she was asking for it. *sigh*

        They live in a rural area, and they drove 2 hours to Chicago to get almost no advice. And they don’t have money for an attorney. Which makes it even worse. Basically this guy is in a position of authority over young women, and women who are economically tied to him because there are no other jobs in the area. And the store is ok with leaving that predator as a manager. It’s infuriating.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Go to the Illinois Bar Association website: https://www.isba.org/public. You can find a lawyer and look at referrals there. She might be able to find someone willing to take the case pro bono.

          And I’m really sorry that this happened to your friend. This is disgusting and horrible.

        2. neverjaunty*

          They need to talk to a different lawyer ASAP. Whoever they talked to was an idiot, and employee-side lawyers work on contingency – meaning they get a cut of any proceeds, the client doesn’t pay up front.

          As for the tape going missing – any competent lawyer is going to be all over that like ants on sugar. It’s called spoliation of evidence, and it would not be a very comfortable experience for anyone at that company to explain under oath how that tape just so happened to vanish.

          Please encourage your friend to talk to a different lawyer, one who specializes in representing employees, not a generalist.

          1. Anon for this one*

            Yes, the store is a national brand.

            The police are involved, however… the case is closed pending DNA evidence return. My gut don’t trust the situation.

            1. neverjaunty*

              Your gut is right here. Please, please encourage your friend to talk to a different lawyer – one who specializes in representing employees. They should not have to pay a dime out of pocket to talk to an attorney on this.

            2. WellRed*

              Reach out to corporate (through a lawyer)? Local and regional managers can be downright stupid, but DNA evidence or not, I would think they’d take this seriously

              1. neverjaunty*

                100%, absolutely, through a lawyer at this point. Friend’s company is trying to cover up a rape and blame the victim.

        4. Temperance*

          Also, speaking as an attorney – I very often get phone calls for cases that just aren’t appropriate for me to handle. I recommend that they call their county or state bar association.

          What they need is a plaintiff-side employment attorney. Most work on contingency. Do not seek out a solo practitioner/general practitioner. They won’t be appropriate for something this sensitive.

        5. Rosalind*

          On the criminal side, keep at the police and District Attorney he said/she said is enough to file charges and have someone convicte. DNA is useful but not necessary. On the civil sidetry and find a different attorney.

      1. Leatherwings*

        Yo, that’s actually really not a helpful thing to say about a rape victim. I understand hearing about stuff like this is angering, but saying things about what a person “should have done” is pretty harmful.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          This. And, frankly, that would probably not have made her life any better. In fact, she would probably end herself charged with assault or worse.

      2. Anon for this one*

        While I understand your sentiment, it’s not helpful and in fact the very thing a school in the US is being sued about right now. A student was coerced into oral sex and she was asked wyhe didn’t bite it off.

        So you know, because I don’t know your gender, women aren’t predisposed to doing anything that may cause more violence then we are already being exposed to….if you just let him finish you *might* get to live. We are taught to deescalate the situation, because men frequently respond to “no” with violence and insults.

        This is victim blaming lite. She froze and, until you are faced with a dick being shoved into your mouth, you really can’t say how you would respond.

    7. Pwyll*

      Lawyers can’t really give this type of advice over the internet. Please have your friend contact a lawyer licensed in your state. Easiest way for a consultation if you don’t know a lawyer is to type “Illinois lawyers referral” into google and look for bar associations and legal aid providers. Additionally, your friend may want to search for a local rape crisis center, which can help her to find the psychological and legal help she’ll need in this harrowing time. I’m so sorry, best of luck to her!

    8. Emmie*

      Has she reported this to the police? I see the DA, but am not sure is that’s District Attorney.
      Get a lawyer, and counseling. This is so horrible.
      As for you, keep being there. That must be so hard, but your support is a lifeline.

    10. Lucky*

      Has she contacted corporate headquarters? She probably has, but if not – this is exactly the type of thing that store managers, district managers, etc., try to keep Corporate from finding out. I would suggest a big blast – contact corporate HR, but also find out who the executives are and loop them in — communications/marketing, risk, legal — all of these departments should hear about this and should be concerned.

      If they do nothing, maybe she can put the F’ers on blast on Twitter, Facebook, contact independent media outlets.

      Grr, I’m so mad and really want to know what chain this is so I can make a point to not go there ever again.

      1. Anon for this one*

        I’m inches from a change.org petition myself. It’s nationwide and I’m sure they wouldn’t enjoy being associated with a rapist. (Or at least the publicity from it)

        1. Temperance*

          Not legal advice, but I would really hold off on that until your friend involves the parent company. You don’t want it to come out that she didn’t go through proper channels above her store, and change.org petitions don’t really do anything in most cases.

      2. Joseph*

        Yeah, this is actually one of the (few) benefits of working at a Big Chain Store over a smaller local one – There’s a higher tier of people who have a vested interest in handling management issues. Because if it explodes into a press issue, the entire corporate name gets dragged through the mud.

    11. Observer*

      1. Lawyer – see if she can Legal Aid or whatever the equivalent in IL is.

      2. Keep chasing the police. Politely.

      3. EEOC – they don’t charge anything. The way the store is handling it works in her favor – tapes of an incident going missing and conducting an investigation by asking around if she’s “flirty” are the kinds of things that make for a really good case, because at that point, it’s not even just about the assault.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Yes. The idea that ‘cases like this rarely win’ is so out to lunch that I wonder about the competence of the lawyer who gave them that advice.

      2. Anon for this one*

        The whole thing is very good ‘ole boy, sweep it under the rug. Obviously, I’m sick about this for my friend, but I’m also so very worried about the other women who work at that store…I mean…seriously he forced a woman to give him oral sex, inside the store, during business hours. Why the actual F does he still have a job???

        1. Observer*

          From the point of winning a case, that works for her. Of course, there are no guarantees, but the EEOC really goes after companies that don’t handle these investigations well. And the courts have backed them up.

    12. Golden Lioness*

      Contact the local bar association and they will refer you to a good lawyer. She needs a lawyer ASAP. This is a criminal case, the employment part is a separate (although related) one.
      If she hasn’t talked to corporate she should.

      On the tape missing. Are there any written records where there’s a mention of the tape? This is aserious offense for the store to try to explain, but if there are no records and they deny the existence of the tape it could become a “he said/she said”

      Most importantly, your friend needs counseling. I am so very sorry she had to go through that,

    13. BRR*

      Have to echo lawyer. Search around.

      I would say make as much noise as possible. Go up the chain. Go to management and HR. Local, district, region, and national. Government agencies both state and federal.

  20. Terra*

    Question for a coworker who’s planning to leave. She’s the only person in her department (think marketing). She answers to someone with a title equivalent to director of sales and marketing. He is often completely unavailable by phone and email due to travelling or just because he will lock himself in his office and refuse to answer them which means she is responsible for all marketing inquiries and duties in a high volume department. Often times she cannot go to him for help so makes fairly high priority decisions herself.

    1) Should she list this as an accomplishment on her resume? 2) If so how would she word it? I’ve suggested something like “managed marketing department x% of the time” but she’s wary of doing so since her title is not actually “Marketing Manager” even though we don’t have a marketing manager.

    1. Cat steals keyboard*

      Can she just describe the tasks and responsibilities – i.e. just say what she did – rather than worrying about an absolute title for them?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, I don’t think she should list “managing,” but she should list the things she did.

      Assistant Marketing Manager
      – things she was supposed to do
      – responded to marketing inquries
      – etc

      1. Lily Rowan*

        If she’s been managing the marketing, I think she can totally say that! But maybe frame it more as managing the function, not the department, since that sounds more like managing staff?

  21. T3k*

    So, I don’t know if I accidentally did a Really Bad Thing or not and want to know what you guys would do if you had this situation. This is a bit long:

    I came across a job posting that was posted about 3 weeks ago on a company’s website. It said to click the individual job posting to see the specifics of the job and how to apply. Problem 1: there were no instructions on how to apply within the pdf file. I even selected all to see if perhaps it was hidden text or something, checked in another browser, etc. Basically, no instructions.

    So, this company is a pretty well known company (about 200 employees) and have different emails depending on what you’re inquiring about, but none for careers, so I emailed the general one asking about the job posting, but no answer (been about a week now). Their number is also not listed on their website, but easy to find if you use google. Again, that didn’t go anywhere (generic operator type thing).

    I really want to apply for this job because it feels like a great fit so I then decided maybe I could find someone on LinkedIn who’s part of the hiring process to ask. Nope. But, I did find the person who the position would be reporting to as their name was on the job posting, and here’s where my possibly bad thing is. Having exhausted everything I could think of, I sent a message earlier this week to the guy, apologizing for contacting him but I tried all these other avenues and couldn’t get anyone to answer and explained that the job postings had no instructions on applying and I really wanted to apply to it and how to go about doing that and apologizing again.

    Of course, a day after this, I came across the job on a generic job board, slightly different description, but says at the bottom to send resumes to someone who, when I looked them up, was a recruiter. So now I just don’t know what to do, or what I should have done.

    Do I apply through the board site (though it’ll actually go directly through there and not a personal email to the recruiter)? Do I mention there were no instructions on the company’s site, hope the guy doesn’t blacklist me, or just not apply at all now and try to pretend none of this happened? The guy is also very far up the ladder there, as in one of the VPs, and I don’t know how often, if ever, he checks his LinkedIn, but I’m not holding my breath that he’ll respond.

    1. Fabulous*

      Just send your resume and cover letter to the recruiter as it instructs. You don’t need to mention any of the other contacts you made, although it might be helpful in the body of the email to let them know the posting on the website has no instructions how to apply.

    2. Jesmlet*

      I’d just send your resume to the recruiter as if this was the only place you’d seen the job and not mention any other attempts you made. It’s not like you did anything wrong, it just sucks that you didn’t see the job board before you took all the other steps. Just pretend it didn’t happen and apply through the only avenue they’ve actually mentioned.

    3. BRR*

      Just apply like how it tells you. I’ve had similarly frustrating situations where instructions are left out. I’ll google a job to see if another site has it and also sometimes another site might have more information like a salary range.

    4. Turquoise Teapot*

      You didn’t do anything wrong. Just apply as you usually would and if the VP writes back, thank him for his time and let him know you’ve submitted your application.

      Considering the circumstances, I don’t think contacting him on LinkedIn could hurt. If anything, it could make you stand out as a highly motivated candidate and they might appreciate the info about one of their job posting sites being difficult to use.

  22. FancyDress*

    Folks who work in or have hired for UX/UI…what would you be looking for in a UX/UI resume, especially if the person hasn’t really been working in tech?
    I’m a web producer who’s worked primarily in news. Over the years I’ve taught myself HTML/CSS and Javascript and done a bunch of design and project management on products like our newsletters and apps.
    I’d really, really like to transition to UX/UI work as I find it fascinating, and I had the opportunity to chat with a recruiter about doing so. He said that my resume was too…news-focused? I guess. And that I needed to rewrite it to appeal to tech hiring managers. I did a bunch of Googling, but as I’m entirely self-taught I got a bit lost with the language and figured I’d ask here (especially after the amazing technical writing discussion from the other day).

    1. Michaela*

      Your portfolio is going to be important. Since you’re self-taught (me too! high five!), and come from a non-tech background, I’d want to be able to see your work. I hate saying this, but if you contribute to an open-source project or two, that would be a plus.

      1. FancyDress*

        Thanks! I’ve got a portfolio of live links, but do you think I should be including wireframes & so on?

        1. Michaela*

          Yes. Show me your process, have a narrative of what problem the design/development is solving, how you approach your work, what the results were.

        2. Turquoise Teapot*

          Yes. Include wireframes, site maps, anything like that. And listvyour languages and software skills at the top of your resume.

          My experience is that in the tech world, people tend to exaggerate their skills on their resumes. Don’t over do it, but don’t sell yourself short either. Include all languages and relevant software you’ve used. Bullets under each job should be focused on keywords that recruiters look for, and should be in keeping with current industry terminology. To get a sense of this, read anything you can that was recently written by people in the industry. Terminology can change, and you want to avoid sounding dated.

          Keep the wording on your resume really concise and focused on your skills. Most hiring managers will just scan it to get a quick sense of your background and put more weight on your portfolio and interview.

          1. Turquoise Teapot*

            Re-reading this after posting, I realized it sounded like I was suggesting that you exaggerate your skills. I didn’t mean that. Be honest, but don’t be shy or modest.

    2. nerfmobile*

      UX is about process – anybody can show a portfolio full of pretty end results. What we want to see is the initial problem you needed to solve, how you approached it, and what you have to produce to communicate your intent to the people who actually made the thing.

  23. Leatherwings*

    Ugh, I got laid off this week. I am totally crushed and finding it hard to show my face at work until my last day. I am grateful that a lot of other people in my organization are stepping up to help me with my job search, but it still feels really crappy.

    Anyone have any tips on pushing through after a layoff?

    1. Dawn*

      You’re gonna be sad and mad about it for a long, long time, probably even after you take another job. That’s OK, normal, and is just something that will fade with time. Let yourself be sad, let yourself be angry, when you’re ready, ask yourself if there was anything you could have done to not get laid off and then work on those areas going forward. Most of all, tho, don’t let this layoff rule your professional life- it was just a layoff, most of the time those are not personal at all and you just lost the layoff lottery. It SUCKS in the short term but it’ll get better in the long term.

      I was laid off in late 2014 and can look back and say that it was absolutely a good thing in the end as I’ve grown more professionally because of the new job that I had to get. If I had stayed with that company I would have stagnated.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Same here–I was at BEC at Oldjob and even after I sucked it up, I still knew I wouldn’t be able to stay there much longer. Several people got laid off, which was actually a blessing.

    3. beetrootqueen*

      that sucks I’m so sorry. allow yourself to get emotional about it and then start clearing out honestly. Right down what you need to do to hand over and make sure it’s already. I’m sorry this happened to you

    4. Emmie*

      Yes. I was laid off and felt horrible. My coworkers were so sympathetic, which I never expected. I kept it quiet, but the a few people who knew took me aside, and told me how valuable I was. It was enormously helpful. You’ll find coworkers who don’t know what to say, who take a lead from you, and those few who really support you. Go out with grace, and quality work. Keep your good reputation. I packed my stuff well before my last day. And, my heart really goes out to you.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      That really sucks. I’m so sorry.

      I worked at my last organization for about five months after I got notice of my layoff. I tried to stay centered by thinking about what I wanted my managers/colleagues to say about me when they were called for references, and what I wanted to be able to say about myself in interviews. I felt pretty crappy, but that crappiness wasn’t helping me achieve any of my goals, so I vented on occasion to my boyfriend, but tried to cultivate a productive, positive and effective persona at work.

    7. SeekingBetter*

      Very sorry to hear the news. Yes, when I was laid off last year, I felt the exact same way that you do now and can relate. The company I worked for didn’t give me any heads up and told me to leave the same day the HR person informed me about it.

      As far as help from former coworkers on the job search, I personally didn’t get any leads from them. It’s been all of my own search. Yes, it’s frustrating, but try to keep positive and do what you have to do in the meantime before your next gig.

    9. Sniffles*

      Been there, got the t-shirt.
      Also got a “going away party” with all the higher ups telling me how great I was to work with and how valuable I was to the company! Um, so why was I one of the layoffs???

      Find something to do with your time while looking for work. I volunteered for the months I was outa work & really felt it helped me from sinking into deep dark despair because I could see tht there were some much worse off..

  24. StupidInterviewee*

    Have you guys ever accepted a job only to realise it is so much bigger than you can handle? That is me now. This first work week has been so much hell I am actually looking back at the wanted ads again. And I honestly feel ashamed because EVERYBODY is telling me I should be able to handle it because of how many years I worked, but I don’t have the experience and confidence in the job they want me to do, and I am so worried now.
    Has anybody ever felt the same?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      I did once leave a job after two weeks because I was in super over my head. There wasn’t any real support or training, and I was also in the midst of a bit of a mental health crisis, so leaving was definitely the right thing to do. But I also think feeling overwhelmed in the early days of a new job is very normal and not always a sign of things to come! You don’t have to be perfect.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, that happened to me. Whether you should leave or not, though, depends on which way you think it’s bigger than you can handle.

      Is it just imposter syndrome (in other words, “I don’t feel qualified to do this; this is a steep learning curve”)? If so, and you’re a fast learner, be optimistic and roll up your sleeves. I’ve had a job like that before, and it was really tough the first two months, but I got the hang of it.

      Or is it more the workload? Not one full-time position or even two. You’re doing the work of three or four people? If so, I’d definitely start looking for a job. I had a situation like that, and my boss kept saying there’d be ways to lighten the load, but those ways never came, and I had to leave within the year.

      1. StupidInterviewee*

        Thank you for the encouragement afiendishthingy and anonymous educator. I’ll maybe give it a further weeks, see if my anxiety can ease a bit.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          Keep a log of each skill you learn and each challenge you surmount, and reward yourself, even if it’s only a “hey self, you done good!”

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Yes, absolutely. It was my first job out of college– an entry-level sales role.

      The first month of training was fun, but then everything went to hell. I realized that a high-pressure sales environment is not for me, no matter how fun the workplace was, or how friendly the coworkers were. I couldn’t stop thinking about work when I went home, I dreamed about making calls, and I would frequently go home and cry because I felt like a failure.

      My boss refused to offer additional training after I begged for it, so that’s when I started looking for a new job. In total, I was at the job less than four months. It took me upwards of six months post-job to recover from the emotional damage.

    4. Crylo Ren*

      I’m in this situation now. I started looking at job boards within the first 2 weeks of the job.

      I will say give it time and see how you feel. It’s normal to feel overwhelmed when you’re first starting a new role, no matter how many years of experience you have. I’ve been here 6 months now and while I still feel like I’m in over my head, it’s gotten easier and I can see myself sticking it out for the year…but I’m still keeping a constant eye on job boards just in case.

    5. AnonAcademic*

      I had to “fake it till I made it” for the first 6 months of my job. That’s normal for my position though (research – you are always learning new, unfamiliar tools so there’s always a learning curve). I questioned regularly whether I was unprepared for my role but I am pretty good at learning on the job and my boss seems fine with my pace. Can you get feedback from your boss on whether they think you’re picking things up quickly enough?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Ordinarily, I would say try to tough it out for six months and see where that puts you. BUT. I see you are saying “everyone is telling me I should be able to handle it because of how many years I have worked….”

      Uh. NO, that is not how jobs flow. Okay, first who is “everybody”, if it’s your family and friends they don’t count, stop listening to them. If it’s your boss, this might be a problem because you might need training on specific things and he does not want to spend the bucks.

      Do you have someone mentoring you? If no, can you find someone? Do you have resource material that you can look at on your own, so you can start to answer your own questions?

      Do you think that it is just too much work for one person?
      Have you tried talking to your boss about what his expectations are?

      1. StupidInterviewee*

        Yeah, I think it is time I had a sit down with the boss to talk clearly about what I need training in, and whether or not he can provide it for me. Thanks for the suggestion Not So NewReader!

  25. Cube Farmer*

    My minor child has a seasonal job working for a local costume & dance wear shop. This business has three locations in our city. Attached to everyone’s first paycheck was this note: “[Information on when paychecks are issued and when and who can pick them up.] Additionally, discussing your paycheck/pay with anyone except [owner] will be grounds for termination. WELCOME ABOARD!!! Thanks, [signature and owners name].”

    I’m 99.9% this is not legal but just wanted to get your thoughts on advising him. Should he point out to his manager that this is illegal? Take the anonymous route and print the law out and mail it to the owner? Ignore it? This is an owner the takes pride in telling the new employees that she is not required by law to give them breaks. Although she did finally figure out that she has to give the minors an unpaid 30 minute break after four hours per Florida law. For my part, I am just going to give him advice. What he does with it is up to him because this is his job and not mine.

    1. Dawn*

      I think it’s a good educational moment because you can say “Hey Fergus, I want to point out that it is completely legal for you to talk about money with your co-workers [insert chance to learn about worker’s rights and the struggles that led up to them being implemented]. Just because your boss says something doesn’t mean it’s right, always check the employment laws where you work because there are some bad apple bosses out there who will try and take advantage of you. Here’s how you check those laws. [Maybe insert conversation about how to talk to a boss who’s doing something illegal, where to go for help if they’re working somewhere that’s doing something illegal, etc.]”

    2. Bekx*

      Oh jeez. I’ve been in a similar situation as a young employee and the difficult part about bringing it up is you are told you can’t possibly know what you’re talking about. Personally? I’d probably just report them to my state’s labor board if it were me.

    3. Newby*

      Is it something that is important to your son? If it isn’t it may be worth it to wait until the season is over and he doesn’t work there anymore to send the information about the law. Since it is a seasonal job that would be an easy way to avoid any potential backlash.

    4. a fast machine*

      Super definitely not legal. Sadly though seasonal and youth employers like to exploit the fact that their staff don’t usually know the law and what is and isn’t legal. I would mention in passing to the manager about how your son noticed the rule about not discussing pay and was curious since he’s always been taught that was illegal. Less of a “you’re breaking the law!” and more of a “how do you explain this to a young naive person who thinks this is illegal?”
      But since it is seasonal and your child is a minor and doesn’t need this job for vital living expenses, it might be better for him to let it lie.

    5. Jesmlet*

      Isn’t Florida an at-will state though? Which basically means they can fire your son for any reason they want. I would do nothing because if it’s the owner’s policy to terminate, then that’s really up to him.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        At-will employment does generally mean that they can fire for any reason, unless the reason is one that’s specifically illegal. Retaliating against someone for exercising legally protected rights is actually illegal, so they couldn’t fire him for this.

        That said, I think Dawn’s approach above is the best one in this context.

        1. Jesmlet*

          So blatantly saying it’s grounds for termination is illegal, but technically he could still do it and make up another reason right?

            2. Observer*

              Sure. But when a company puts something like that in writing, they are going to have a EXTREMELY hard time proving that they fired someone for anything else – even when it’s true!

              This just recently happened – some kid got fired from a pizza store for discussing her pay with someone else at the store. It hit the news. The chain first tried to claim that the manager didn’t mean this that or the other, but they had to back down.

              Oh, and the manager got fired.

              2. Pwyll*

                I’m not sure about the extremely part, but I otherwise agree. I imagine a company -could- come up with evidence to show an employee wasn’t fired for sharing their salary, but the writing would make that more difficult.

      2. Pwyll*

        While it’s true that an at-will employee can be fired for any reason or no reason (so long as it’s not a discriminatory reason), it’s also a violation of the National Labor Relations Act to prevent employees from discussing their wages amongst each other.

    7. BRR*

      This is one of those situations where there’s the awesome thing to do and the here’s what might actually happen thing to do. The awesome thing for him to do is go to owner and say that’s illegal and file a complaint. Now questions to ask to determine how to handle it. Does he need the money? Will he need the reference (and would the jack ass owner give one)? Will this job have awful working conditions and not be worth it?

      And I love that you’re giving advice then letting him decide. Heck he could come on next Friday if he wants to follow up. I know when I was younger I would have found it much more difficult to speak up. Dawn has great advice in teaching that just because your boss/employer saying something doesn’t make it right. Sometimes it’s malicious and sometimes it’s just a lack of knowledge.

    8. Turquoise Teapot*

      Ah yes, I remember being young and encountering similar things. Looking back, I wish I had just quit and reported them. I was in a small town and assumed that if I reported my employer, everyone would know about it and I’d never find a job again. Now that I’m older, I know that there are honest business owners who appreciate the dishonest ones being held accountable. I also learned in these jobs that the illegal behavior you witness is usually just the tip of the iceberg. A red flag. These jobs don’t tend to go well and the owners don’t tend to be good references.

      But to answer your question, I agree with other posters that you should give him information about labor laws and let him decide what to do. “Start looking for another job. These people are shady,” is what I’d be thinking. But, yeah, this is a learning experience.

  26. NASA*

    HR people – how long does it take to get a f&$^ing FMLA form?!

    I requested my FMLA form almost two weeks ago. I sent my HR generalist a reminder after one week and we are quickly approaching two weeks of no response…

    I asked my pregnant co-worker if she had recently asked for any forms and she just hit the 2 week mark of no response from this person as well.

    I really don’t want to have to CC this person’s supervisor in my next email. Don’t make me be that person!

      1. NASA*

        Yeah, I called her (HR Generalist) first to make sure that the FMLA form was what I needed. She said yes and to email her so she could send it to me. I emailed her as soon as we got off the phone and it been radio silence since.

        I’m thinking of calling her but I’ll need to have a script, otherwise there is a chance I will go into snippy territory. You know the whole bees/honey/vinegar saying :)

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Hey Jane, remember when I talked to you on the 15th about an FMLA form? I haven’t received it yet, so I just wanted to let you know that if you emailed it, it vanished into the ether. Could you re-send it please?

        2. Murphy*

          You call every single day at the same exact time and use the same exact script. They should get the message pretty quick that it’s not going to stop until they do what they’re supposed to do. Have your coworker do the same.

      2. BRR*

        This is my method. At a certain point you lose your right to not be called. I have a colleague I do supporting wor for who never responds to email or IM. She now gets an in-person visit.

        PS love the name

    2. LCL*

      (Not an HR person.)
      I go to the link to the forms on the company inweb where the forms are stored and print them myself. Or send my co workers the link and let them print their own forms. Our form is just a polished version of the federal governments’ form, which is available at this link.
      https://www.dol.gov/whd/forms/WH-380-E.pdf

      1. NASA*

        Update: there is a form deeeeeeep in the intranet trenches of my university website.

        All HR directions say that they will email you the form, but after 6 clicks in I found something resembling a LOA/FMLA form.

        I’m going to fill it out and attach it and say, “is this what you meant to send me?” Technically they had 5 (or 2 depending on website you’re looking at) business days to send me the form after my verbal/written request. I did both! Ha. And now it’s been 8 business days. Double ha!

        Grumble grumble grumble.

    3. SouthernLadybug*

      I’m not HR – but my employer’s website (NOT intranet) has links to the HR policies and all the forms an employee or the employee’s HR rep needs to fill out. So I found mine in less than 5 seconds.

    4. E*

      Can you and your co-worked talk to your boss instead, presenting the written evidence of your requests 2 weeks ago? Perhaps he or she can push the matter further with the HR generalist or their manager. If you meet all the requirements for FMLA, there’s really no good reason for a request to take this long. HR needs the info to process your requests, otherwise they’re essentially blocking you from applying for FMLA at all.

      1. NASA*

        Yes, great idea!

        My entire department has had issues with our HR Generalist for at least two years so compiling all the evidence of the same crap happening to different people over months and months is the next step. This is unacceptable.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Well, gee. You should get one as soon as you request it. Is it something that you can download from somewhere on your employer’s website? That’s how we handled it back at “Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd.”

    6. Canton*

      They should be sending it to you within 5 days. You should definitely check your company’s intranet but you should also go above that HR Person because you don’t want her sitting on the form after you submit it.

  27. Overeducated*

    Here for commiseration. It’s my third week of work and my toddler is home sick with a decently high fever. I haven’t accrued a sick day yet so my husband is missing his second day this week, AND it’s his birthday. Obviously he and the sick kid are having a worse day than I am, I got to join a fun project, but I worry and wish I were home. It is hard being a working parent with not much leave. Probably harder being a kid of working parents.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I don’t have kids but I feel for you on the not-much-leave thing. My boyfriend’s leave policy at his job stated he couldn’t take a paid sick day for the first 90 days at work- how one is supposed to control that kind of thing is beyond me.

      As an aside, I am a child of working parents. For a while, it was just my mom, my brother, and I. I’m sure it was hard on her to have to handle sick days with us by herself, but that’s not what we remember. What my brother and I remember was the example she set for us by working as hard as she did- I think we’re better people for it. I know you wish you were home, but the days you weren’t able to be there aren’t necessarily likely to be the be-all-end-all thing your child internalizes about having working parents. *hug*

    3. TL -*

      I was a kid of working parents and it never bothered me at all. I stayed home by myself from an earlier age, like 8, I think? (unless I was sick enough that my mom thought I needed to be monitored – but usually I wasn’t up for anything but sleeping and watching videos so it was fine to leave me alone.)

      I guess I didn’t know there was anything different but there was always an adult around when I needed one so it was okay with me. I wasn’t too picky about who gave me medicine or cleaned up my sick, either.

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Yeah that sucks. I doubt your kid will have any lasting negative thoughts about both parents working and Pineapple Incident has a point about setting a good example of “its hard and I don’t want to do it but I made a commitment and I am sticking to it”.
      Maybe this is just me ranting a bit but I think it also good that your husband is the one home with your child. That is a battle my husband and I fight over sometimes and as a working mother a stereotype that I have to fight against. At OldJob it was brought up that I had taken 2 days off that YEAR because of a sick kid and I had to be careful because I didn’t want to get a reputation of not caring for my job. That seriously pissed me off because several of the men in my department had “worked from home” for 10 or more days during that same year for childcare related issues. And I know they didn’t work during that time because they responded to zero emails or IM’s asking for critical info (my boss backed me up as he was not the one who brought up the sick kids days and he is who I went to when I couldn’t get the data I needed). I actually heard another one of the managers praise his male employee for being such an active parent while openly criticizing a female employee for doing the same thing but significantly fewer days. When me and one other employee pointed out the comments and were able to point out that he took more time off then she did for childcare related issues he got real uppity but shockingly checked it out and realized we were right and apologized. For the record it was two managers talking in a hallway and I happened to be walking by when I heard it and since the guy they were praising was the one I had been having issues getting stuff from I felt it needed to be addressed.
      I’m not saying you should never stay home with your kid just that we need the fathers to make it a more normal both in the home life and at work as opposed to it immediately falling to the mother to take the time off. I have also heard managers sneer at fathers who take time off to care for their sick kids so it really does go both ways.

      My rant for the day and kudos to all of the working fathers out there who already do this. I know you are out there so keep on being awesome!

  28. self employed*

    I need to update my resume. About 2 years ago I did freelance work but I’m not sure I saved screenshots/printouts of the articles. Will these be necessary? If someone wants my Word docs (as a writing sample, say), I can provide them, but I cannot “prove” that I was published on this or that website. Am I worrying for nothing?

    1. KT*

      Freelancer here–you’ll have a tough time if you only have Word docs–as you said, it’s not prrof it was published anywhere. That said, printouts and screenshots aren’t much better.

      Can you Google yourself and see if you can find any online? I’ve found most hiring managers/editors will only look at my work if I can provide live links

      1. self employed*

        Some is still live but not all of it! I can definitely prove I did some things but not all of it. Live links only kind of stinks, because if I worked on a project that is no longer relevant (on a technology that has since been updated), they’ll pull it offline. Thanks for your response!

  29. Edith*

    Okay, special job open to recent graduates, with recent defined as last 12 months. Interested party is obligated to remain at old job for 12 months following graduation due to tuition reimbursement. Is that just how the cookie crumbles and interested party is out of luck, or should potential employer be contacted to see if they’ll make an exception?

    1. Leatherwings*

      It depends. Some companies are going to stick to that requirement, others might make an exception. You might mention it in your cover letter and see what happens – it can’t hurt to try.

    2. It happens*

      Can the interested party ask the organization if the twelve month rule applies to application date or start date?

  30. Random Lurker*

    Just got out of a termination meeting for a very productive, but very difficult to work with employee. It didn’t go well (why would it… he’s seeing his livelihood come to an end). I’ve never seen someone sabotage themselves the way this guy did, so termination was the correct choice, no doubts on my end. Bust still, I’m a little conflicted right now. I obviously feel bad that it came to this. Given that, is it wrong that I am so relieved that it is over and that he is gone?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      Nope! Sounds like you made the right choice, and others who had to work with him are probably grateful.

    2. Dawn*

      Not wrong at all! You can like a person, see their potential, and wish them well in their future… but still be happy to not have to try and cram a square peg into a round hole all day.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Not at all! There have been a lot of situations in my professional life lately where my main reaction was just, “Ugh, can you not.” People who had a choice to just make the thing not a thing, but decided to take the path of greatest annoyance, make it hard on everyone. It’s so frustrating to try to resolve a situation of a person’s own making, and totally appropriate to be relieved that you don’t have to push that boulder up a hill anymore!

    4. Anonina*

      That sounds hard, sorry! Of course you’re relieved.

      I hope this doesn’t sound odd or troll-like, but would you be willing to give examples of how the guy was difficult to work with and sabotaged himself? I ask because I often worry that I’m that way… and I want to change what I can. What did he do and what could he have done differently? How did it get to the point of termination?

      Any insight appreciated…

      1. NicoleK*

        At Old Job, I had a new coworker that was difficult to work with. These are a few things that she did:

        1. When she didn’t know something, instead of asking someone for the answer, she tended to fill in the blanks herself which led to mistakes, which led to her colleagues having to correct her or her mistakes.
        2. When she stepped on toes or overreached, she never apologized for it.
        3. She had all kinds of ideas, unfortunately most of them would not work due to the setting, resource limitation, time constraint, and etc. But she kept throwing out her ideas anyway even when no one else was interested in them. A few instances, she even challenged the project manager about the feasibility of her ideas.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        When I’ve seen people I would describe as “productive but difficult to work with” it’s usually a matter of soft skills. They treat other people badly – they’re rude, or condescending, or aggressive, or mean. They have attitude problems – they’re sulky, or short tempered, or overly emotional, or unreasonably argumentative or sensitive. They complain all the time, or are in the habit of publicly slagging off the company or their coworkers and bosses. They throw people under the bus, or evade responsibility when they make a mistake. They treat coworkers as subordinates, or hog all the interesting work, or don’t communicate with others, or refuse to follow instructions. Occasionally it can mean someone who has weird quirks or mannerisms that drive everyone else up the wall – people who sing out loud while working.

  31. Fabulous*

    The good news is – My temp job I’m in finally started steps toward onboarding! I officially applied yesterday and just spoke with the corporate recruiter.

    The bad news is – When I first talked with my manager about coming on board, I told her my target salary ($40-45k). The recruiter just offered me my current hourly rate ($17/hr, or approx. $35k) – No thanks, I can barely afford things as it is! Countered at $19/hr and I’m waiting to hear back.

    Hopefully I get good news and they accept my counter! Though I probably should have gone higher since $19 is where I want to end up…

    1. Fabulous*

      Not the greatest news, but at least they came up some… Been in the working world for a decade and I still haven’t seen $40k and likely won’t for a very long time still. This sucks :(

    3. NicoleK*

      It will happen. It took me 9-10 years after I graduated to make $40,000. It’s frustrating when you know people who make $40,000 1-2 year after they graduate.

  32. Nervous Accountant*

    Things were stable this week, so not much to report. We move next week so something to look forward to!

    On another note—PLOT TWIST! CC (creepy coworker) complained about ME to other coworkers and requested that he not sit next to me.
    I”m not even mad, in fact i’m thrilled because I didn’t have to.

    1. Myrin*

      I’ve been following this saga on the edge of my seat and while I’m hurray-ing for you over here, I’m also insanely curious what it was he of all people complained about. (Also, I’m still not over that he can just ask to be sat somewhere else when, if I recall correctly, you didn’t get a say wrt your seating arrangements.)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Lol! I’ll be sure to post more when we move!

        He complained that I was “too spread out” and i have my shit all over the place. He’s not factually wrong BUT:
        1. The seat next to me is empty. He sits in the seat NEXT to that. He’s welcome to put his stuff too, but he doesn’t.
        2. I was very considerate and careful of my stuff when the seat next to me was occupied.
        3. It’s kind of a joke in the office that I have a lot of shoes underneath my desk and I’m a sitting pharmacy. (need advil motrin cough drops I have it all).
        4. He had a HUGE desk before and would have gotten a huge desk still, but in an isolated room. But he still insisted on sitting next to us.

        If he had other complaints, I’m not privvy to it; a cw told me about it, but I shut it down and said “even though I’m curious please don’t tell me, because there’s nothing I can do abut it.”

  33. LadyKelvin Now A Doctor (of Philosophy)*

    So I passed my PhD Defense on Monday. Yay! I have some corrections to do, but I had no idea how stressed out I was until I was finished and all the tension in my back and shoulders was gone. I also found out from my references that the people in Hawaii called them. Thanks a pretty good sign right? My husband and I have decided that if I get the job we are going to move to Hawaii. Crazy. I also had a job interview yesterday that I thought went really well, but I’m not going to take it because the job was posted for 2 different cities, and if the job was in DC I’d take it but they said they actually want the person in the other city so I’m going to have to pass. It doesn’t pay enough for us to move down to a city where my husband won’t be able to find work. Plus it only requires a bachelor’s degree so I’m a bit overqualified. Its a fed job and in my field, so I figured after a year or two working there I could start applying for fed jobs that I’m actually qualified for and want, since I’m having such a hard time getting through the hiring system as it is. Anyways, no questions today, just wanted to share my good news!

  34. Tuckerman*

    I work at a University and am pursuing a Masters in an unrelated field, so any tuition benefit in excess of $5250 is taxed. My first year, my employer took the taxes out of my paycheck at the end of the year over a couple paychecks (It’s taxed at 37%!) Last year they completely forgot, and didn’t seem to think it was a big deal. So I included the taxable tuition in the appropriate section when I did my taxes with Turbo Tax. Easy peasy. This year is my final year, and I’d like to do it the same as I did last year. Does anyone know, is there any reason why they must take it out of my paycheck? I end up getting most of it back when I file faxes because of my income bracket and it’s a hardship to have that much deducted. A lawyer at work says he can’t think of any reason why I have to essentially “pre-pay.” Any help/knowledge would be appreciated!

    1. jack of all trades*

      The only issue you would have is if you owed taxes. As far as it being 37% the first year. That is because the benefit amount is treated as if it is your normal salary and taxes are computed as if that were your salary for the whole year. You do get it back but it’s a bit of a surprise when all that extra gets taken out.

      1. Tuckerman*

        Hey jack, I don’t mind owing taxes (though I haven’t yet). I would just rather pay it when I file (because instead of a having huge chunk out of my paycheck for a couple months, it will likely just reduce my refund or I’ll only have to pay a little bit).

    2. Natalie*

      If the benefit is taxable, they’re required to withhold taxes. Assuming you received $5,250 or more last year, they obviously just made a mistake.

      If they are able to run the reimbursement check separately from their regular payroll, they can withhold at a flat 25%. It doesn’t hurt to ask.

    3. BRR*

      I’d contact payroll and ask. It just might be difficult to get it down if it’s a university policy. Another possibility might be to adjust your withholding when you know they’ll start taking it out then adjust it again Jan 1 so it would hopefully give you enough cash..

      1. Natalie*

        It’s not university policy, it’s IRS policy. Withholding is required for this type of fringe benefit.

        1. BRR*

          Ah so it does appear mandatory. From what I can tell. Reading tax code reminded me I hate trying to understand tax code.

  35. Jaqui*

    Looking for a skills enhancer course for exec. assistants. Is Skillpath any good? Are there others you would recommend?

    Thanks!

    1. twig*

      I keep coming back to see if anyone has replied to you yet, because I have the same question!

      I have taken a few webinars through the American Association of Administrative Professionals that have been helpful: http://www.asaporg.com/

    2. DragoCucina*

      We’ve not used Skillpath, but have used Fred Pryor both in person seminars and online training. We were already happy with them and then another ED in my state, he has a HR masters, also independently recommended them.

  36. Need Interview Question Advice*

    I need advice on how to answer question why I want to leave job after only 14 months. The short story is that I took a job with a boss I really liked but she left 5 months into hiring me. It is a nonprofit that turned out to be extremely dysfunctional. The board took almost a year to hire a replacement. This new boss is a nightmare! Has a bad reputation and is living up to everything that has been said about her. Colleagues in the field will not even speak to her. I want to get out ASAP because it is a sinking ship! The problem is I have only been here 14 months. My job has completely changed from what I agreed to when I was hired. Also I left my previous job where I had been for 5 years because the CEO retired and the new CEO was a nightmare as well and was very mean to certain employees. His meaness was never directed at me. I was one of the few staff he seemed to like but he created a toxic work environment so I left and took a job at my current workplace. I really don’t want potential employers to think I just leave when things get rough but I can’t do toxic work environments. The current job is getting worse every day and I really feel like I need to get out ASAP!

    1. Myrin*

      My job has completely changed from what I agreed to when I was hired.
      I think that sounds like a good and reasonable explanation, actually!

      1. Dawn*

        Yup! If I was interviewing you I wouldn’t even think twice about that answer, heck I’d probably think “Good for you!”

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      You have an easy explanation for why you are looking and if you are worried about short-term stay you have a solid 5 year stint on there so you should be good to look around.

    5. Kyrielle*

      Yep. The five-year stay doesn’t have to be explained at all – don’t mention the change in leadership there or the word ‘toxic’ or any sign that it was the functioning of the workplace. You’d been there five years and you moved on. For this one, the organization’s needs for your role changed so much that the job was completely different from what you originally hired on to do.

    6. BRR*

      Echoing others. Five years is nothing alarming. Could you say you left for more responsibility? 14 months isn’t terribly, especially after five years.

    7. Golden Lioness*

      You do have a good explanation. You signed up for a job, and then they change it. Also, 14 months is not bad, considering you were at the prior job for 5 years. Get out and good luck!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      If these two bosses have been around any length of time, then people in your arena already know what is up. Keep your explanation simple, as suggested here. Stay classy. I don’t think you will have a ton of problems with your explanation.

  37. Simplytea*

    How do career-focused individuals in their twenties and thirties leave the US for a few years and come back a restart their careers?

    I’m not a spontaneous person, but I’d really love to live outside the US for a couple of a years if I had the chance and it wouldn’t ruin my chances of having a fulfilling career later on. Has anyone done this?

    1. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Why not try the best of both worlds and find a job with an international company that has offices in the US and around the globe? That way you should be able to get the sponsorship/visa issues covered to work outside the US but also have the opportunity to come back when you are ready and not have any work gaps and possibly have a job when you return.

    3. It happens*

      That’s a tough question. A lot depends on both why you want to live in another country and what you want out of your career.
      I was an expat for a number of years, sent by my company to another country. I had never expected to work abroad, it just happened. Those plum multinational jobs are few and far between nowadays. Expats are expensive and better have a very specific skill set not available locally to justify that expense. Work visas are hard to get – what’s the super-special skill you have that no one in your target country has? A few examples of American friends and their jobs – advertising (from a big multinational), accounting (Big 4), Foreign Service, entrepreneur (so much hassle on a daily basis), commercial real estate (multinational), Human Resources consultant (multinational), etc. A number of them came to the country on time-limited rotations and then decided to stay, either at local pay rates or by going through the process to hang their own shingle as consultants. Except for Foreign Service, no one took their jobs or had the expectation at hire of working internationally.
      Some options, that can still play in interviews after repatriation: teaching English in a foreign country, Peace Corps or other international service orgs that allow you to apply your business skills in another country. Foreign language requirements vary. Going through an established organization by starting in the US makes the logistics a lot easier.
      TL;DR think about who you are and what you want out of your work and life experiences then find an organization that can help you make them happen. Enjoy!

    4. aelle*

      I’m not from the US but I have lived and worked in a number of countries and I’m in my early 30s now. The fact that I started with internships was helpful (I built a track record of professional skills + transnational collaboration skills early on) but you can do that at any point in your career.

      I’d recommend identifying foreign companies in your industry that have open positions. You do need to be an excellent match to justify them putting up with the cost and the hassle of getting you a work visa.
      Looking up US companies with open international positions is possible but probably not the easiest. Expat positions like these have become a rarity – at your career level they tend to be covered by a mix of local hires and regular travel.

  38. JLK in the ATX*

    How do you manage the application process when volunteers and/or seasonal staff apply?

    I’ve been with a non-profit for 3-yrs as a seasonal staff member and I also volunteer for this organization (doing the same work) in the off-season. My seasonal boss is also my volunteer boss, and she sends unpublished openings within the organization. I applied to one, but never received any communication (in response to two emails I sent) from the hiring person (who is not in HR or in the dept I work/volunteer in) for the past 2 months.

    Admittedly, I’m a bit surprised that my organization affiliation isn’t being acknowledged, even if I’m not right for the position. My seasonal/volunteer boss is embarrassed by this persons actions (or lack thereof) as I’m embarrassed to keep her updated. This treatment will not affect my desire to keep working for this organization (I love the seasonal job I do and they keep asking me back) in my seasonal role.

    As a non-profit professional, 16 years in, I wouldn’t dream treating a volunteer and/or seasonal staff this way. They’ve earned the professionalism and respect of the organization to be kept in the loop up until they’re accepted or denied for the position. While all applicants deserve this, the organizational affiliation has weight and should be considered.

    Does your non-profit treat volunteers and/or seasonal employees with any deference when applying for positions? What about those referred by current employees, particularly for an unpublished position hoping for an employee referral?

    Do I have any leverage, as a volunteer and/or staff member, to share my negative experience with those who could be part of the education process (Volunteer Manager, HR, the hiring persons’ manager) on how to treat volunteers and/or seasonal staff applicants?

    1. Cat steals keyboard*

      I think I would mention this, but frame it as being worried the application system might be failing – i.e. as a tech error.

      I work at a non-profit and we would be mortified if this happened to a volunteer.

      1. JLK in the ATX*

        Your suggestion was the direction I was considering. Thanks for the reinforcing my thoughts on it. I, too, am in shock that a volunteer and/or employee would be treated this way and I don’t know – if they know- how bad this is for business in other ways.

    2. Cat steals keyboard*

      PS re dereference – no idea how it works in current job as I’m quite new but when I volunteered I had a guarantee of an interview for any role I wanted to apply for. When I interviewed for a role and didn’t get it I received a very nice phone call explaining why and saying they valued my volunteering and hoped i’d still want to do it. They later acted as a reference for me as well.

    4. BRR*

      Is your seasonal/volunteer manager giving you a reference to the hiring manager? I’m with Persephone Mulberry that your current manager knows and it’s in their hands.

      1. JLK in the ATX*

        My boss isn’t giving me a referral, but did in my cover letter I noted how I found out about the position and affiliation with the organization. My boss is embarrassed at the lack of courtesy, from the hiring person to me. From what I know, I haven’t been considered for the position which is fine by me.

  39. AshK123*

    This is just a (petty) vent! I flew out to interview for a position and the first thing the next morning I got a one sentence rejection email that was very perfunctory. They didn’t even include the generic “it was a difficulty decision because we had so many great candidates…”. I spent so much time speaking with them (not to mention flying out there) it would’ve been nice to get a little fluff in the rejection! Compare that to the 3-paragraph (really kind!)rejection email I received from a recruiter who I’d only ever spoke to on the phone for about 25 minutes.

    3. Overeducated*

      I hate that! I interviewed for a position that required a 3 day trip (1 full day of meetings and 1 half day where I gave a tailored talk) and actually heard nothing for 5 months until I received a form “thank you for applying” rejection letter from HR. A one line email from the hiring manager given that I put a lot of time and effort into their interview process would have been nice.

  40. Lucky*

    I just want to post some appreciation for Alison and the AAM community for the great conversations we’ve had about gender issues in the workplace recently.

  41. Gandalf the Nude*

    Gosh, I just wanna shout out the colleagues that always make your day better. I’ve got one guy who always has me smiling by the end of the phone call even if I was seeing red before the phone rang, even if he’s added something stressful to my workload, just because he’s so pleasant. Thank you to those, folks.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Ha! I know those folks. The ones that call with the crazy request that will take up 50% of your work hours for the next month But they are so engaged in their request. They take the time to explain any issues and answer every little question. Then they tell you how much they appreciate your work.
      My co-workers ask “Aren’t you so mad at JoeSchmo because they give you such big crazy projects?” And I never am. Somehow, I’m grateful.

  42. Lillian McGee*

    Idk how many of you would remember but a while back I commented about how my husband was a career-hopper and never spent more than 2 years in a job before hopping over to a completely different field. (To recap, he’s done GIS mapping, firefighter, train conductor, and now land surveying)

    I think it’s finally caught up with him. He regrets his most recent hop. I think it really hit him when I pointed out that I am now bringing home more money than he is (from a non-profit job! I never would have dreamed…) plus he has no pension, crap insurance, crap hours. I have been 100% supportive each time but now I wonder if I was actually just enabling.

    Anyway, he is going back to the railroad it seems. And to underscore just how weird an industry the railroad is, the employer he walked out on is OVERJOYED to be taking him back. I told him that maybe it is time to grit his teeth and stop jumping ship every time he finds some part of the work unbearable. It’s pretty sad that he has been essentially “entry level” his entire working life so far! Am I right to put my foot down this time? Is it my place? I dunno.

    1. Christy*

      Oh yeah, it’s totally your place. Who else, if not his wife? I mean, “putting your foot down” might not be like 100% the best way to handle it, but you’re the right person for the reality check.

    2. Dawn*

      I think it’s fine as his friend and life companion to point out that it’s pretty immature and definitely limiting if he runs away every time work gets annoying. Like, definitely don’t work somewhere unsafe or unethical, buuuut…. we all have aspects of our jobs that we don’t like, and we grow professionally and personally when we find healthy and successful coping mechanism to deal with those unpleasant aspects.

      1. Lillian McGee*

        That’s really nicely put, thank you. I really don’t like it when people say things like, “Well *I* put up with *this* so *you* should be able to blah blah etc” (even though I am super guilty of doing just that sometimes…) But what you said delivers the message in much more general and less judgy terms.

        1. Dawn*

          You’re welcome! And yeah, everyone has a different threshold for putting up with stuff. My husband, for example, can nonchalantly deal with situations at work that would break me down into a gibbering, fuming MESS, but he gets really really annoyed when someone’s being intentionally ignorant about something whereas I can brush that off easily.

          In your situation, it sounds like you need to point out, as a friend, that shouldering through tough/annoying situations is a good thing personally and professionally and it’s super limiting to just throw up his hands and go “Nope! I’m out!” every time something bugs him.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      Has your husband ever considered seeing a counselor specializing in career issues? Often people with a history like your husband’s have some unreasonable deal breaker about work which leads to them quitting or being fired eventually everywhere. My MIL is like this, she’s a “my way or the high way” person who eventually settled into a part-time job where she could run the show, until management changed and there was more oversight and she was essentially forced into retirement. She absolutely hates the place where she worked even though she had like 10 good years there, because of how it ended, and it’s pretty clear she has a chip on her shoulder about every place she ever worked basically. Her attitude was a huuuge career limiter and the financial implications of that for her retirement are Not Good.

    4. BRR*

      I think it’s your place to put your foot down. Now to what level depends on what if any expectations you set early on. It was known to both my husband and I that we expected each other to earn at least an ok salary with ok benefits. He has a PhD in the humanities and is aspiring to be a professor but our expectations mean that he can’t only adjunct.

    5. Gene*

      The railroad is probably thrilled because there’s a severe shortage of rail labor right now. And he has EXPERIENCE!!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      The way my husband approached it with me was pretty well thought out. I had moved up here, dealt with a dying parent, planned a wedding, moved again and through out all this I bounced from job to job. I found seasonal work or temp work. I thought I was doing well to stay employed. And there were times where I was working three jobs. Well I had to work three jobs to make up for the times that I was out of work.

      My husband said to me that I needed to get my income stabilized. He pointed out that our goals as a team depended on me being on an even keel income-wise. He caught my attention, well, I really liked that “team” and “we” part. Sure it was hard to listen to because it was criticism (constructive but still….), but I thought about it and realized that he had put some thought in what he was saying. He wasn’t yelling or slamming is fist on the table. He was very matter of fact. I appreciated the fact that he did not say I needed to earn a specific amount of money. He did not compare his pay to mine. All he wanted was for me to have a steady income so that we could work on more of our goals.

      What I like about this approach is that it was up to me to nail down the problem areas and work through those myself. It took me a few months but I landed a job that I stayed with for over a decade and we hit many of those goals that we had.

  43. Caroline*

    I’m on the job hunt, and I saw a job posted as “exempt” but the hiring range was 39-46k. I’m OK with that range (although obviously I’d like more if possible), but it is my understanding that as of December, this combination of exempt and salary will be outlawed.

    Let’s say I get this job (OK, this is truly jumping the gun because I’m not even 100% sure I’m going to apply), even if they moved through the hiring process quickly, a start date probably wouldn’t be until November. Would I bring this up when I get an offer? Accept an offer and then bring it up a month later, when it becomes outlawed?

    This is a major university with thousands of employees, so I would be shocked if they were unaware of the new law (might be understandable for a small company with no HR), so I’m surprised that they have listed it this way. It kind of makes me not want to apply, because I don’t want to have to call them out for trying to dodge the law as a new or potential employee. This is someplace I really would like to work, though.

    1. ThatGirl*

      In my understanding, it could still be exempt in that range but they would owe you overtime if worked.

      I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong about that, though.

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, that’s generally what it means. The whole point of the law is that you can’t make someone exempt from overtime if you’re paying them less than the threshold amount.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes, “exempt” means exempt from overtime requirements. They’d either have to make you non-exempt and pay you overtime as of Dec. 1 or raise the salary.

          If you’re offered the job, you can simply ask at that point what will happen to the exempt status when the new regs go into effect.

          I wouldn’t be put off that they haven’t indicated that; it doesn’t mean they don’t have a plan for it.

          2. Lemon Zinger*

            For what it’s worth, I work at a university too, and nobody knows what they’re going to do come December 1. Obviously HR is hard at work, but management in my department knows absolutely nothing.

        4. jack of all trades*

          You can be exempt and still get overtime. The exempt is that you get a set salary for the first 40 no matter what.

          2. BRR*

            My cousin is exempt but earns overtime at her normal hourly rate. She works in an industry where long hours are common so she’s got a great gig where sometimes she’s gets great pay and then gets the work-life balance to enjoy it.

      2. Pwyll*

        Not exempt, salaried. Folks making under the salary threshold can still be salaried, but they have to track their hours and be paid the equivalent of 1.5x their hourly rate for any hour worked over 40 in a week.

    2. jack of all trades*

      It could be they are using an old description and as the new rules have not gone into effect yet no one thought about updating the salary.

    3. N.J.*

      From my understanding it is not unlawful to be “exempt” at that salary level, it just means they will have to pay you overtime for anything over 40 hours in a week. It’s still “exempt” it just means the threshold for situations in which an exempt employee will receive overtime pay has changed. It’s not designed to change everyone from exempt to non-exempt or hourly.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Nope, it’s illegal. They can’t treat you as exempt if you don’t mean the legal tests for it (salary basis test and job duties test). People who don’t meet those tests will become non-exempt on Dec. 1 unless the company raises their salaries.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        it just means they will have to pay you overtime for anything over 40 hours in a week

        I thought this was the very definition of non-exempt.

    4. HRChick*

      It also depends on the position. The Academic Administration exemption has a different salary minimum that is basically that you have to be paid more than the minimum payment to faculty/teachers (who are exempt with no salary minimum).

      We have a few staff employees who fall under the academic administration

    5. Sophia Brooks*

      I work at a large university, and for some reason they keep using the words wrong. They are saying that our job is still “exempt”, because we are still receiving the exempt level benefits (like more vacation time, unlimited sick time, tuition benefits), we will just be paid hourly and need to be paid overtime if we go over 40 hours. It is making me crazy, because the very definition of exempt is that we are exempt from overtime, and they agree that we are no longer exempt from overtime. But I had to let it go, because they are actually following the rules, and I feel like fighting them about semantics will cause them to reduce my vacation time.

      SO, anyway, maybe they are meaning it like that?

  44. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I just (as in, less than an hour ago) got an email from a company I’ve been talking with. They asked for work samples. Most of the work I did in my past jobs was proprietary and confidential to clients– I can’t share it. I do have an internal presentation I did (and loved) at my last job, a draft of a blog post, a published blog post, and a couple of pieces from the second-to-last job I had (which I left in November 2014). Are those pieces too old?

    1. Caroline*

      If they are relevant to the work you are applying to do, I don’t see what age has to do with it. I mean, if you had improved and your new work was better than your old work, newer might benefit you, but I can’t see why someone would reject work you did a long time ago if it was up to par with what they expected.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        This is good to know– thanks! This is the part I hate, mostly because I’ve done mostly client-based work. All I can do is cross my fingers and hope they like my writing.

    3. Dee*

      It’s a pretty common problem. I’d bring what you have and also maybe offer to complete a writing exercise, if they have something like that. And I agree that 2014 isn’t old.

    4. edj3*

      When I had a similar situation, I anonymized the work and used wording to indicate that proprietary material had been removed.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I have two pieces where I’ve done that, from a job where some of my work was sent out as examples of what the company did– clients had to subscribe to see the data, so I’ve blinded any data points. The trouble with my last job is that our work became the property of our clients and we had really strict NDAs, so unfortunately no go there. It does make job-hunting a bit challenging at times!

  45. Anna*

    In sort of a weird place at the moment. I’m currently on a one-year leave of absence (without pay) from work to complete my masters degree (the university I’m attending is in a different country so I couldn’t do it while working, and my job isn’t one that can really be done long-distance). So I’m a full-time student, with visa restrictions that mean I can only work a maximum of 20hrs per week.

    At this point I’m not sure how to approach job searches. I have over five years experience in my field but there aren’t many part-time roles in this industry. Then again it’s been over five years since I’ve done anything related to retail, and I’ve never worked in hospitality. So I don’t really know where to aim my job search at this point. Also, I’ll be leaving after a year, so that probably doesn’t help my case.

    The alternative is to just focus on my studies. I’ve planned for this for over a year and had saved/budgeted accordingly. If I don’t work I won’t need to go into debt or anything, but it’s still a massive chunk of my savings that I’ll be sinking into. Also, would it look odd if I basically had a full year gap in my work history (although I’m technically still employed, but I’m not even sure how I’ll make a note of that on my CV)?

    1. LadyKelvin*

      They year you take off for your master’s is not a gap in your resume. Its a year you spent on your masters. And since you’ll include it on your resume with when you completed it, it’ll be obvious that the gap in your work history was for education. So I wouldn’t worry about it at all. If you want to work in retail or hospitality part time to make some extra money during your degree, I’d do it. But I wouldn’t even include it in your resume, since it won’t be relevant.

  46. Do Not Speak of My Accords*

    It is bad to interview for a new job during your probation period if you feel your new job isn’t a good fit?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Bad? No. If you leave a new job so quickly, you’ll probably burn a bridge with your current employer, but if you think the job isn’t going to work out in the long run anyways that’s probably a calculation you’ve got to make.

      You have to do what you have to do for yourself, even if it’s not always ideal.

    2. beetrootqueen*

      nope. I wish I had done that. If you think its game over at your current job the best thing to do is walk out of your probation period with another job prepared and get the hell out of there

    3. AshK123*

      I don’t think so. I’m currently doing this because I knew within the first week of starting my new job that it wasn’t going to be the right fit for me. I think it benefits everyone if you don’t stay in a job you don’t like. (obviously be sure not to make a habit out of this)

  47. Fourth Month*

    For those of you following the Fourth Month Finds A Job saga, this is where I’m at:

    I have achieved one part-time job, to start next week, doing phone sales of season tickets for Eminent City Theater Company. It doesn’t look particularly fun, but it’s acceptable and I can do it in the evenings and go on job interviews in the daytime till I find full-time work again. I may also have picked up part-time remote work transcribing medical interviews, but I don’t know yet how much of that there will be. They’ll send my first trial piece sometime in the next two weeks, so it’s not an immediate solution to my problems, but it’ll be good to pick up a little money on the side if it does work out.

    I have had good luck getting interviews recently. I have one phone interview for a remote full-time position coming up next week, and another in-person interview for a part-time position working with an event manager for Big Public Space. Since I want to go into event management, this appeals to me even though there aren’t enough hours to make it my sole job. It’s in line with my eventual goals.

    That said, some of the interviews are with companies which deeply misrepresented themselves. I have a job interview for this afternoon with a “marketing” firm, and they didn’t really give me a straight answer when I asked them what the position would entail, in my first interview. Welp, I just read the reviews on Glassdoor. From what I can tell, I’d be doing door-to-door sales. And I’d be paid by commission only. NO. I’m not willing to get involved in that. The last time I did that was at the age of eight, as part of a multilevel marketing scheme that a friend of mine bought into, and I hated it then. It’d be worse now because I don’t have the option of asking my parents to rescue me.

    I was going to just cancel out of the interview entirely, but I left my coat in the building last time I was there, so I have to stop back at some point. Perhaps I’ll go into the interview, get them to tell me what the position actually involves, say it’s not for me and walk out.

    It’s hard for me to make this decision, because I grew up with an awful sense that I must take any job available when unemployed–no matter what it was–and that if I didn’t take a job when offered to me, that would make me a horrible lazy shiftless good-for-nothing who was so much of a goddamn princess she thought she was above a hard day’s work. I am having a hard time fighting that idea right now.

    The self-protective part of my brain says that there’s laziness, and then there’s knowing my limits and weighing the pros and cons of a job in a reasonable way, and this is the latter set of qualities. The stern Yankee work ethic in my head is judging me nonetheless.

    1. Alton*

      Ah, the vague “marketing” companies.

      I had to take my contact info off Monster because I was getting calls from these commission-based insurance sales companies that would imply that I’d applied for a job with them (I hadn’t) or would be vague about the nature of the job. I know I’m a terrible salesperson, so I told them all thanks but no thanks.

      I know what you mean about feeling like you have to take whatever comes your way. But I think it’s good to still have some standards. If you take a horrible job and leave after a few months because it’s a bad fit, you won’t be any better off than you are now. Also, getting an interview is usually a sign that your resume impressed people, so it’s natural to feel like it’s a good opportunity. But honestly, I think some of these companies basically spam people en masse. They don’t have a lot to lose because the sales are commission-based, and they have high turnover anyway.

      It’s okay to have standards!

      1. Fourth Month*

        Thanks ^_^

        I went in, and they were exactly as full of crap as you might imagine. Three times I outright asked the manager interviewing me for a job description, and twice she responded by telling me how wonderful the company was, and once by negging me, telling me that since I was the one who didn’t have a JOB, and I was the one who’d come to HER to ASK for a job–

        The punchline was probably, “Therefore you have NO RIGHT to question me, you cringing supplicant,” but I’ll never find out, because that was the point when I walked away. At least they were blatant about being manipulative creeps. As you say, things wouldn’t be any better if I went to work for them and then had to leave anyway.

  48. Cruciatus*

    This past weekend I officially applied for another position at my current employer. I felt weird and a little guilty, especially as I realized as this week went on that the school I work for likely is working with the new position I just applied to. So, probably the director and my supervisor know I applied (which I’m trying to remind myself, is not the end of the world. I was just planning on waiting unless invited for an interview). Oh well. Lots of people have moved around so this isn’t unusual.

    Went out with a coworker last night that I don’t know well but do trust. We chatted for about 3.5 hours! She recently moved from a similar position in another school to a new one she likes better. It was good to chat with her and have her outside perspective that management in my school is cray-cray and that there are better spots for me on campus (at least eventually). I haven’t made a lot of friends here (some of this is because I feel I must be confined to my desk all day) but it was really nice to make that connection with a coworker and have her get it!

    So overall, not a bad week. Nice to have one of those once in a while!

  49. Kore*

    Hey gang,

    I don’t work in an open plan office but I work out in the middle of everything – most of my coworkers are in offices but I sit out at a desk next to another desk. My coworker who sits at the desk next to me is very social and a lot of people chat with her for extended amounts of time. I don’t want to say you shouldn’t talk about work-related stuff in person, nor do I want to insist on no personal chat, but when there are people at her desk for 20-30 minutes at the time I find it very hard to concentrate. I try listening to music on headphones but to no avail. Any advice?

    1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Super annoying. I’ve got a person like that who sits next to me–mostly the loud conversations are one-sided on the phone, but every once and a bit he’ll have an in-person visit. I’ve found that instrumentals allow me to drown out the noise a little better and concentrate, while songs with lyrics do not.

      I’ve also spoken to my manager about it and when I have projects that require high-concentration and no distractions she allows me to work from home.

      Other than that, it is maddening and I’ve not found any good solution.

    2. Damn It Hardison!*

      I do work in an open space office and this was definitely a problem as we were adjusting. I think the best way to address it is directly with your coworker. Ask politely if she can limit her at-desk conversations while you are at yours. You don’t even need to make the distinction between work and non-work. A friendly “Hi Jane, I’m finding myself distracted in our open area.I know how busy you are and how many people you interact with, so I’m not surprised by the foot traffic at your desk. To help me focus, would you take longer conversations to the huddle room/conference room/coat closet? Not all conversations obviously, just ones that are extended. And of course, I’ll do the same.”

    3. Saturnalia*

      I’m usually too passive for the direct approach but ambient sounds (rainstorms especially, tons of this on YouTube) on headphones really help me in my open office.

  50. LawCat*

    Any tips on helping a loved one with their job search when they’re really demoralized and want to get out of their job, but feel tired and defeated every day?

    My unhappiness with my last job really lit a fire under me to get out because I definitely felt like I could, but my spouse’s unhappiness with his job has almost had an opposite impact. He feels stuck and hopeless.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Don’t let him crab endlessly. He has to find the motivation internally. Give him 10 minutes to vent a night (or whatever) and then ask him what he’s going to do about it…

      I get it, my husband feels more or less the same, and he’s also been struggling with depression. I’m encouraging him to get his resume fixed up, cover letters started, and also get his depression back under control – but ultimately he has to be the one to do it.

    2. justsomeone*

      This is me. I am struggling to find the energy to do the work to get out.

      I’m going to resort to bribery. I have asked my husband to help me meet my weekly application goals, but he’s too soft on me about it, and I don’t actually meet my goals. Can you ask your spouse “Is there something I can do to help you move forward?” and if he has an answer, try to actually do the thing.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I’m there. I had so much hope at the start of my job search, but now I’m feeling pretty demoralized. (I think that I’m in that weird “too much experience to some positions not enough for others” state – at least from a potential employer’s view.)

        One of my tactics is to not allow myself to go home. I do my job search at the public library right after work (we have a great library system where I live). When I’ve completed all I can for the day, then I let myself go home. Where I try to make myself think of anything else. (I’m not always successful in this…)

        1. LawCat*

          That’s a really good idea and I will suggest it. Mondays and Thursdays, he doesn’t have any activities after work. He could go to the library before coming home or just come home to get the chromebook and walk to one of the local coffee shops to work on job searching. That avoids any pressures to get other stuff done at home too (and the temptation of watching TV or playing a computer game).

    3. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I know we have some awful recruiter stories on here but if you can find a good one they do some of the leg work and help tailor your resume (at least mine did – she really was great). I think the ones that are a bit more field specific are usually better.

  51. Anon for this one*

    Well, my company has merged, and they’re firming up the organization. I pitched myself hard to my department head for a leadership role, but there’s a lot of talent here and he had a total poker face, so…idk. It will be awhile before we find out.

    So nerve wracking.

  52. beetrootqueen*

    Right so i’m a situation at work and need some advice. I work with children and the organization I work with has a new boss. The person who used to work their was my boss for a job I resigned from due to his behaviour and after my resignation and him then trying to fire me after I had resigned the whole thing ended terribly with him. However as my new boss is still taking over and the two have to talk at work he appears every now and then which I could handle. Only he is making it very obvious to the kids about what happens he whispers insults and swear words words under his breath about me and makes a big deal of “ignoring” me. The children have all noticed and are now uncomfortable both with him and the situation. It’s awkward and I honestly don’t know how to stop him from doing this behvaiour in front of the children
    any advice?

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      What?! He is swearing and insulting you and the kids can hear it? That’s horrible! I’m confused: is this your old boss or new boss? Either way, it’s awful. Is there anyone you can talk with about this?

        1. BuildMeUp*

          You should tell your new boss ASAP. This isn’t something that’s just affecting you – Old Boss is visibly making the kids uncomfortable.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Um, that’s totally unacceptable. Round up with him ASAP and say “”Bob, when you swear and mutter under your breath, it frightens the children. Please stop doing this around them.”

  53. Alton*

    I’m curious if anyone on here has gotten an MPA degree, or has opinions on its value.

    I’ve been thinking about it because I work for a university and I’m also interested in non-profit work. I have a BA in a humanities discipline but no other degree. I’m having a hard time finding out if an MPA would really be significantly likely to help me or not, or what an MPA is truly good for.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I work at a university and a few of my coworkers have gotten/are getting their MPA degrees. It has no relevance to my particular office; one colleague was SHOCKED that he didn’t get a raise once he completed his degree. However, another person plans to leave higher education for nonprofit/government work once he finishes the program, and I think that makes a lot more sense.

      If you wanted to stay in higher ed, I’d suggest a M.Ed in Higher Ed Administration. I don’t think an MPA will help you if you stay.

      1. JOTeepe*

        Employees should only get raises for completing degrees if it allows for you to do more in your current role. For example, an RN who completes his/her BSN. Or an architect who has been recently licensed. Etc.

        (Obviously, employees get raises for lots of reasons, but I don’t agree with getting a raise solely for completing a degree when your duties aren’t changing or expanding.)

    2. JOTeepe*

      I have an MPA! The simplest way to describe it is an MBA for public (or not-for-profit) sector.

      If you live in a State capital or near the DC area, it is most lucrative. Also, like with MBAs, make sure you are going to a program with a good ranking and good job placement.

      Can you be more specific about what you want to do with the degree? If you wanted to break into the government sector, it’s a no-brainer. But for higher ed/not-for-profit, depending on your interests, where you want to live, and what programs you are looking at, an MBA might be better. (Or, as Lemon Zinger stated, M. Ed. if you want to stay in higher ed.)

    3. BRR*

      It’s a good choice in terms of a masters degree when you’re applying for jobs in the areas you’re interested. But I would place it in the “will check off a box” category. It’s more versatile than a masters in higher ed admin if you don’t want to always work at a university. I wouldn’t do it though unless it was paid for or possibly very cheap.

    4. JLK in the ATX*

      I obtained my MPA for several reasons: my unit commander said I should do it, I used my GI Bill and I lived in Germany where I couldn’t work. Great motivating factors, but also I really like the process of learning and I wanted to better myself. (Note: it was hard, took 2 years and I only remember the last few months of capstone being late nights, whiteboards, and markers. I wrote on the impact of grant outcome duplication and reporting. I anyone cares, it costs a lot of time and resources :)

      So for career, it has proven helpful when I was hired as an Ex.Director and as a fundraiser (both with the same national brand; brand knowledge made an impression). Most would say MPA if you have aspirations for a Director level positions and others would say that continuing education, in lieu of a Masters, can prove to be as good as.

      My MPA, from CSU Dominguez Hills, focused on public sectors and policy. I would suggest one that focuses on NPO if you want to stay in non-profit (more application) and if you’re not ready for the whole thing, there are great non-profit management certificate classes (I completed mine, prior to my MPA, at Duke University – took a year)

  54. Finman*

    Going through resumes can be fairly entertaining. I had someone who misspelled his own city in his address (split it into 2 words and added an S at the end. I also had someone who had a 1/3 page summary at the top of the resume where he talked about himself in the third person twice using John Smith and many other times using “he”. Of the 60-70 resumes I’ve been given by HR (they don’t do pre-screening) only 6 are in my phone interview pile.

    1. Rebecca*

      I looked at resumes once. My manager left them sit in a pile, and was laughing at some of them – one resume had no capital letters, at all, not even in the person’s name. Some of them had some pretty egregious spelling and grammatical errors. I would have tossed them. I have no idea why she hung on to them.

    2. brightstar*

      A friend of mine, who’s an HR Recruiter, had a cover letter this week that stated “It’s lit”. That person went in the nope pile.

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        Last week my coworker got a resume that started with a Summary section which I SWEAR must be identical to the summary section of the applicant’s okcupid profile. The first sentence started “I am five foot five, brown eyes…” And went on to describe her heart and smile, as well as mention that she was “big an [sic] beautiful”. The section ended “anything you want to know, just ask me!!!!!!”

        I. What.

    3. Sniffles*

      teehee
      I once had two people apply at the same time in the same letter – twins!
      Couldn’t tell whether I would have had to interview/hire them as a unit or if they were conjoined or what.
      One of those letters I wish I had kept for my “Smile” folder since it was so bizarre & puzzling.

  55. Lemon Zinger*

    AAM readers, I need your insight on professional attire for the workplace.

    I work at a large public university. Because I’m female and quite young, I make an effort to dress a bit more formally than others so that I avoid the “student” look. I’m tall and most of my dresses and skirts are too short for the office (my preferred skirt length is no higher than an inch above the knee). Pants are great, but they need to be slim-fit or straight-leg.

    Thus far, I’ve shopped at H&M and Gap, both of which have let me down in terms of quality., so please don’t suggest those. I am willing to spend money on quality pieces that will last me a long time. I am also desperate to find clothes that can go through the wash without shrinking. I’m tired of donating piles of ill-fitting clothes!

    Please help! Where do you stylish female office workers get your clothes?

    1. beetrootqueen*

      skirt wise have you tried more “vintage” style shops like Collectif or Joy. they often have longer pencil skirts and full dark ones that would be good for work and would probably cut out the length problem at least.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Land’s End has great quality and a great return policy.

      NY&Co and LOFT are both pretty solid for the young professional look and their stuff has lasted me decently long.

      1. MsMaryMary*

        Lands End also carries Talls. Watch their sales, at the end of the season you can get things for 50%+ off.

      2. NASA*

        Yes, LOFT. If I could I’d buy all the things from LOFT I probably would. There are also there are several pieces from J. Crew that my co-worker wears and she looks so chic (not the super preppy pieces).

        Sandro and Maje would be my splurge items, but that is if I wanted to look really snazzy.

      3. KR*

        I love Loft. Their dress slacks fit me perfectly – but I’m petite and curvy so I’m not sure how well they work for tall people.

    3. Leatherwings*

      Ann Taylor! I know people think of it as overpriced, but it’s head and shoulders above H&M and Gap in terms of quality.

      1. Caroline*

        If you can find an Ann Taylor outlet, that’s the best! I think half my wardrobe is from Ann Taylor outlet.

        Both the stores and the outlets have good sales, too.

      2. theguvnah*

        plus they almost always have a 30 or 40% off sale happening if you get on their email list. I’ve shopped at both AT and Loft for years and only ever once paid full price, and that was because it was an emergency!

    4. Jesmlet*

      Pixie pants from Old Navy are my go-to business casual. I’ve never had issues with longevity and they come in lots of different colors and look professional enough.

    6. Dawn*

      I’m a huuuuuuge fan of the Merona pants from Target- they’re like $30 a piece, come in black, tan, navy, and grey, fit super flattering on me, and are great quality for the price.

      I also get StitchFix and I really dig the quality of the stuff they send me- if you make a great effort filling out your profile and make a Pinterest board with examples of what you’re looking for and explanations of why you like what you put on that board then the selection they send is awesomely curated.

      I looooove Banana Republic but their stuff fits me weird. Maybe you’d have more luck! Also New York and Company!!! Oh my god I love all of their collections and their price points are great. If you want to spend a little more go check out Nordstrom- they have workwear from $60-$200 and collections for all age groups. I also *just* heard about Carrie Hammer (check out her website) who is a designer who specializes in really awesome quality workwear for professional women. Her selection is limited and she leans way more towards dresses and dress separates but OH MY GOD HER STUFF IS TO. DIE. FOR. So amazingly beautiful, and most dresses are in the $200 range plus hit just above the knee like you said you like.

    7. KatieKate*

      Express has some great pants, but the fit is particular. They don’t work on me but are amaaaazing on my sister.

    9. justsomeone*

      Nordstrom rack! I find great deals on professional clothes there, that are better quality than stuff from H&M. I particularly LOVE Maggy London dresses, and stalk the Maggy London site for sales. Those dresses last a looooong time, and I put them through the washer with no problem. I wash them on cold and hang-dry them.

    10. AVP*

      Anne Taylor Loft! And they have nice sales, too.

      I also like J Crew and Banana Republic – they often have “tall” sizes.

      It might be hard to find corporate-appropriate pieces on ModCLoth, but I always have really good luck with them in terms of finding weird sizes and being washable. My biggest problem with stores like H&M is that you wear something once and wash it and then it’s like an entirely different shape and color, but I’ve never had those issues with the above.

      I know the Corporate blog has a *lot* to say about this as well.

    11. Anon for this one*

      My very tall coworker swears by Banana Republic because the pants come in tall options. She’s especially partial to the Sloan skinny ankle pants.

      I have some too and they’re good quality, can be dressed up or down, are comfy and come in tons of colors.

    12. Master Bean Counter*

      Dillards
      The quality is top notch. I have shirts that are 15 years old that still look new. The pants at Christopher Banks also last forever.

    13. Muriel Heslop*

      Boden. Lands’ End. Ann Taylor. Theory. I am also tall and for a long time looked much younger than my age. I found sticking to solids and neutrals really helped.

      Good luck!

    14. Violet_04*

      If you have a Nordstrom nearby, you could try their personal shopping services. Haven’t tried it myself, but have seen people report positive experiences on other blogs.

      Other stores to try – The Limited, White House Black Market, Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor Loft. I’ve had good luck with Macy’s website. They have a bigger variety of sizes than in store.

      I also like Nordstrom Rack.

      I’ve found it can take time to build up a professional wardrobe. I buy a lot if stuff online and send a good bit back. I only keep things I really love and lean towards classic pieces.

      I also like the fashion blogs You Look Fab and Cap Hill Style for ideas.

      1. Khal E Essi*

        I have to second White House Black Market skirts for work. I do not put my work clothes in the dryer and everything from WHBM has lasted me years.

    15. Pearl*

      If you typically have difficulty finding skirts that are long enough for you, you could also try eShakti (which is only online). They ask your height before they send you anything, regardless of whether you add $7 to your order for customization for your exact measurements. Also, almost every single skirt/dress is going to have pockets as the default. You can remove them for free if you want.

      Their skirt section is smaller than the dresses, which is their big thing, but they do have a decent amount of options. I haven’t heard reviews of their things shrinking. They ARE located in India, though, so it takes a while for shipping.

      3. DragoCucina*

        I was just going to suggest eShakti. I just bought 3 dresses (buy 2 get 1 deal). The fact that I can get a decent sleeve is marvelous.

    16. Isben Takes Tea*

      I LOVE White House/Black Market–they have fashionable, feminine clothes that are good quality/last a long time, and usually go on sale regularly. Their pants are generally for the slim/non-curvy type (not me), but their skirts, tops, and dresses are fun but polished.

    17. super anon*

      I work at large research university and I am significantly younger than most people in a position at my level. I work in student recruitment, and my portfolio and building is a lot more laid back than other faculties on campus, so I find myself wearing jeans and casual sweaters paired with little booties or flats to work a lot of the time. If I were to come to work in pencil skirts or blazers I would be incredibly overdressed, and people would ask me if I had an interview. I also like to pair my slightly too short dresses and skirts with opaque black tights and boots for office wear (plus coming in to winter, it gives me a great way to expand my wardrobe choices outside of pants).

      In terms of shrinking, be wary of 100% cotton clothing – no matter what store it is from it will most likely always shrink when put in the dryer (unless it is pre-shrunk, but I don’t believe that hype myself). I hang most of my clothes to dry – I’ve been able to wear fast fashion stuff for years by not putting those clothes the dryer.

      I buy most of my clothes for work at Express and Aritzia. I have some Aritzia sweaters I’ve worn and washed at least a hundred times and they still fit the same as they did when they were new. However I don’t hang them to dry because they definitely will shrink. I lost two to a horrible laundry service incident that I’m still bitter about.

    18. TheCupcakeCounter*

      If you like wearing skirts, NY&Co has a large selection of very professional pencil skirts that are cut right around the knee or a bit lower (almost a midi-length). They also have a great selection of pants is a variety of length, cuts, and styles. I also think a tall, mid-heel boot with a pencil skirt looks very stylish while providing a bit more coverage. If you have a couple of skirts you think are borderline the tall boots and an opaque tight will help too (especially if the skirt and tights are the same color).
      Also – be very careful with career clothes in the laundry. It sounds like you might be drying stuff that shouldn’t be or washing in too hot of water. I think Gap is a decent product and have never had an issue with shrinking.

    20. ArchErin*

      I second NY&Co. I have several pencil skirts from there that are in my regular rotation. Also, Modcloth! I tend to stick with 40’s style more basic pieces from there like blouses and skirts and cardigans but I have been very pleased with most of what I purchased from there. The reviews on their site for each item are very helpful to determine fit/quality/etc. And I have always had a very good experience with their customer service.

      1. Somniloquist*

        I was going to suggest The Outnet for stuff like this. I have a few Valentino skirts and some other nice blouses that I got at 80% off that I’ve had for years and they were prefect for my professional dress workplace.

    22. DodoBird*

      I hate synthetic fabrics (they make me itchy) so I stick with 100% cotton pants from Banana Republic or Gap.

      But I always make a point to: 1.) wash in cold water and 2.) LINE DRY and no dryer. Or I’ll dry them for 10-15 min in the lowest setting after line drying them. Honestly, heat kills clothes.

  56. LadyMountaineer*

    So, about a year or so I was promoted from Old Department in Local Government to New Department. It was a really nice step up for me but my heart was really with Old Department. The problem was that my old boss didn’t believe I should get paid as much as the men that I worked with even though I was a better software engineer than they were. I was paid 20K less than the men in my area. I told my old boss a bazillion times “I want the same title and the same pay as the people in this department who do my same job” and I repeated that to the point where Old Boss would get visibly nauseous whenever I would say that phrase to him. I really had no issues about walking out of the door on him.

    The issue that I have now is that people at Old Department have assumed that I left for the promotion and not necessarily because of the discrimination. I’ve had a few people ask me why I didn’t take a counter offer (it’s against city rules for agencies to counter offer internal promotions) and why I left “just about money.” I think that Old Boss mis-characterized what happened to several members of Old Department’s executive management as me not asking him for what I wanted or giving him a chance to fix the issue. I gave him a ONE YEAR DEADLINE. Should I reach out to Old Department and try to clear the air? Or should I let it go and just shrug and say “the promotion was too good of an opportunity to pass up?”

      1. Dawn*

        Whoops hit send before I meant to!

        For the people who ask about the counteroffer, just point out that wasn’t an option. If you’re comfortable, whenever someone says “it’s just about money” say that no, it was about you being dramatically underpaid compared to your male co-workers and that your boss said you shouldn’t make as much as the men do, so you left when a better opportunity came along.

      2. LadyMountaineer*

        I do need his reference. This is way more complicated than you give it credit for. Managers might not be able to adjust salary when the issue is raised because of budget so the actual “reason” I was discriminated against according to my department was because of budget not because Old Boss was an ass. :(

    3. Chaordic One*

      Well, if it really was an issue of sexism and your not getting paid as much as the men in your department doing the same work, I don’t see why you can’t tell that to people who ask you why you left “just about money” (and you can certainly include the sordid details.) But only to people who ask.

      At this point in time, I wouldn’t bother reaching out to Old Department to try to clear the air. Let it go. You’ve moved on.

  57. Faith*

    So, very soon I am about to become the hiring manager for the first time in my 10 year career! The requisition to add another person to my team just got approved, so I am keeping my fingers crossed that we start getting some resumes in soon. I am very excited and very nervous at the same time. Wish me luck!

  58. Ann Furthermore*

    Couple questions for the AAM hive mind:

    – I have may be a promising phone interview this afternoon. Part of the role is doing Project Manager work, which I’ve never done before but I’ve been thinking about getting my PMP so I’m open to it. This company is mostly interested in my ERP expertise (which, not to brag, is considerable). I got an email from a VP the same day I sent in my resume, asking for a phone interview, which is what makes it promising (although of course there are no guarantees). Question to the PM’s out there — what do you like/dislike about being a PM? What would you say the most important quality of a PM is?

    – I had also had a second interview with another company about 3 weeks ago, and the said they’d have next steps for me “soon,” and I followed with the HR person twice, but haven’t heard anything. The job is still listed on their website and it’s popping up in my Dice alerts. So my question is that if things with this other company go well and they want to move forward, should I reach out to the other company to see if they’ve made a decision? If they’re just slow but still considering making me an offer I’d like to have that information. Or should I just let it go?

    1. Ann Furthermore*

      Cautiously optimistic about the interview. It went very well. Any and all positive vibes appreciated!

  59. AVP*

    Can I vent here for a minute?

    My boss has been repeatedly telling me that I’m a terrible writer, in very certain terms. And not coached as feedback, but more of a lament – “I wish we had a good writer on staff.” “This paragraph you wrote is terrible, it’s too bad you’re not a good writer and we can’t fix it.” “I have no idea what you’re saying, this whole thing is unintelligible, if only you were a good writer this wouldn’t happen.” Things like that.

    Problem is, I have a journalism degree, newspaper experience, pieces of my writing have been published and praised by all of my old bosses, and the rest of our team and clients are always complimenting me on my writing. The very paragraph that he referred to above got the following response from our associate – “This is just fantastic!!!! Thanks for putting the pitch together, incredibly helpful. I’m also sharing it with X since we can keep it and use it for many presentations for projects.”

    I can take a step back and realize that we just have different styles and needs and priorities, but holy hell I have to be in this job for another year and I don’t know how I’m going to do it unless our clients keep complimenting me and cc’ing him every day.

    1. Jesmlet*

      Nothing worse than not being appreciated when you know you’re doing good work. People can have different styles but I’m struggling to see how everyone would recognize your talent and he doesn’t. Like I prefer Hemingway to Shakespeare but it’s not like we’re talking about literary prose here right? You have my sympathies…

    2. Dawn*

      “The very paragraph that he referred to above got the following response from our associate”
      I think at that point it’s entirely appropriate to say “Wow, Fergus, [associate] said they loved that piece, so this is surprising to hear from you.”

      Also at some point start throwing it back at him- “OK, what can I do differently? What does a good writer mean to you? Why do you say I’m a bad writer when I consistently get good feedback from the team and from our clients?”

      1. AVP*

        heh, he was cc’ed on the email that she sent. He called me and said, “well, I guess if she likes it we can keep it.”

        I think I am going to have to start delving into this, seem it’s been coming up a lot recently. Thank you for the wording suggestions – it just gets my blood boiling past the point where I can have a professional reaction! But practicing phrases like that will help in the moment.

        1. Bend & Snap*

          Yeah I think you need to ask him for constructive feedback, because “this sucks” isn’t constructive.

          Some people just edit the hell out of everything because they’re rigid about style. That doesn’t mean you’re a bad writer (and it sounds like you’re not!). It just means that your boss doesn’t know how to manage a writer.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            snark/ He can’t talk and he says that OP can’t write???/snark.

            OP, you can’t mind read. If he does not say what better looks like, how are you supposed to know.

            I think I would just plain get sick of it, quit taking it to heart and start pushing back. “Okay, boss, what does your idea of great writing look like? I am going to fix this and all I need from you is your checklist of points that you use to evaluate great writing.” I would push back because I would figured I am on the s-list anyway, so I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

            Don’t be surprised if you hear crickets. Sometimes with bosses like this the way out of it is to go INTO with them. Be the most willing employee imaginable. “I want to be your best writer, show me what you see. Let’s sit down and look at this.”

            Some bosses will stop saying this stuff because they don’t want the additional work of showing us. Some bosses will settle down and actually start explaining what they want. It could go any number of way, but you will be in a good spot because you will be showing willingness to work with him.

        2. Turquoise Teapot*

          Yeah, it sounds like he’s being a jerk. Stand up for yourself. Have a conversation with him about it. “So, I’ve noticed that you and others at the office have different opinions on my writing. What, to you, makes a great writer? Should I be more concise? Elaborate more? Having worked in journalism, I can handle some criticism and it’s easy for me to adjust my style.”

    3. Cat steals keyboard*

      Well if this post is anything to go by you can write just fine. That sounds very unpleasant and upsetting, I’m sorry.

    4. Xarcady*

      Any way you can get your boss to define what “good” writing is to her? There are people who like lots and lots of multi-syllable words, for instance, and think simple, plain language isn’t “fancy” enough. (Not that I have any personal experience with that . . . .)

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      I was blindsided like this a few days ago! One of my colleagues came over –out of the blue– and said “Hey, just wanted you to know that you’ve gotten a LOT better at presenting since you started working here. Your presentation this morning had much better flow and balance.”

      I was shocked. I am NOT bad at public speaking and have always gotten positive feedback from the audiences and my manager. In the moment, I didn’t really know what to say other than “I’m sorry you felt that way, what can I do to further improve?” He didn’t offer much of anything.

      It was so awkward and really hit my self-esteem. I’m trying to write it off, but it was a really hurtful encounter with someone who is usually polite and helpful.

      1. AVP*

        ugh! This especially drives me crazy when it comes from a colleague and not someone who is, like, dispatched to review your work. And when it’s meant as a “compliment!”

      2. TheCupcakeCounter*

        Could it have honestly been meant as a compliment more along the lines of professional development rather than a critique of past performance? Do you think your style has changed at all since you started working there (maybe not that you would call an improvement but more of an adjustment to the cultural norms or just being more comfortable in your role)?
        I’m just thinking that someone that is normally polite and helpful wouldn’t usually do a 180 and do a backhanded compliment like that. Might also be why he didn’t have much to offer when you asked for additional feedback. My husband cannot seem to give a compliment without comparing it to something else (for example he would say what you have written above to a junior employee when what he really meant was “I really enjoyed your presentation today you did a great job balancing the high and low points and it flowed really nicely” or “Those black legging look much better – the brown ones showed your cellulite” instead of “Those black leggings look really nice on you”…yes he is an ass sometimes). If possible try to see the positive of what he said instead of any implied negative.
        I didn’t hear tone so you might be 100% right in which case it was kind of shitty (especially since he couldn’t provide any helpful insight on top of it).

    6. Lily Rowan*

      Ugh, I’m sorry your boss is an ass. I’ve been in a situation that wasn’t quite that egregious, and that was bad enough!

      Honestly, my only suggestion is to keep the good feedback in a folder and go back to it whenever you need to.

    7. AVP*

      Thanks everyone! I am keeping your questions and phrases in mind to try to work toward more constructive feedback next time this comes up.

      I also went back and looked at a few things that he did think were good, or that he wrote himself, and I notice that “good writing” tends to start with a barrage of great facts and quotes about him and his career in the top paragraph (it’s not too crazy to have that, we’re selling his skills, I’m just more of a soft seller by nature). I’m going to try to work some of this into future pitches in my own words and see if that gets me anywhere!

      1. Clever Name*

        Hahahahaha! Okay, so if the writing isn’t all about him and his career it’s “unintelligible” and “not good”? At first I thought that he lacked the intelligence to understand your writing, particularly if it’s technical, but it just sounds like he’s a self-centered ass.

  61. ihavequestions*

    A couple quick resume questions:

    If I started a job on say October 31st 2014, is it okay to list the date on my resume/application as November 2014 to Present?

    If I worked an on campus job during my sophomore and junior years with an internship between them should I list it as

    Job 1 August 2012 to May 2014
    Job 2 May 2013 to August 2013

    Or

    Job 1 August 2012 to May 2013
    Job 2 May 2013 to August 2013
    Job 1 August 2013 to May 2014

    1. Dawn*

      If you started a job in October, even if it was the last day of October, put it on your resume that you started it in October. Some HR departments are reallllll picky about details like that when they do a BG check.

      For the on-campus job, I’d do it like this:

      Job 1 August 2012 to May 2013; August 2013 to May 2014
      Job 2 (Intern) May 2013 to August 2013

      Since you were in school it’ll be obvious why Job 1 had that summer gap it in.

    2. It's Friday*

      First question, list it as October 2014
      Second question, I would do this:

      Job 1 August 2013 to May 2014
      August 2012 to May 2013
      Job 2 May 2013 to August 2013

  62. Daisy Dukes*

    Hi everyone! Did I mess up the negotiation before it even started?

    In my first interview, the hiring manager mentioned the exact salary. Recently, I had another interview with HR and they mentioned the salary again. I asked how flexible it was and they said it was fixed.

    Does this mean they don’t negotiate salary? If so, what else can I negotiate?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I would definitely take them at their word on this – they said it’s fixed, so there’s no room to negotiate. Sounds like they’re being very upfront about that to me.

      You can try to negotiate benefits (vacation, work from home, etc) but I’ve found that in situations where a salary is fixed, benefits often are too.

    2. AVP*

      Yes it definitely seems like it’s set in stone. If that’s true, the monetary benefits (insurance, 401k) probably are as well. But sometimes they’ll be able to be flexible on vacation and WFH if it’s something the HM has discretion over.

    3. Daisy Dukes*

      Thank you for your replies! Would you view a company negatively if they don’t give you an opportunity to negotiate?

    4. NicoleK*

      The ability to negotiate work from home, additional PTO, flexible scheduling, and etc. depends on your field, your company, your specific position, and seniority in your company. In my field, it’s pretty uncommon for an entry level candidate to negotiate PTO, monetary benefits, and whatnot.

  63. How not to use your work email*

    Here’s a story of how not to use work email (it’s from a number of years ago, hopefully enough time has passed to not embarrass anyone in case they read this website).

    My company holds welcoming events for our new graduates every year, usually a social evening (drinks, guests speakers and general mingling), it’s usually pretty uneventful. But one year, one of the new grads took a fancy to a fellow grad he was chatting with, but didn’t get her contact details (only her first name) before the end of the night. So the next day he sent out a /company-wide/ email (i.e. to every one of the thousands of people employed there on a national level) with her name and a description of her to try and get in touch.

    I have /no/ idea what compelled him to do this, whether he thought she’d find it flattering or whatever. But he was reprimanded (I don’t if he stayed in the job) and from what I’ve heard she definitely did /not/ appreciate this ‘gesture’.

    1. How not to use your work email*

      p.s. I changed some details but anyone who worked in the field around that time would definitely recognise the story (it was circulated for years) so just in case anyone does, please don’t mention identities etc.

    3. Kai*

      Hah, something similar happened at my previous job (on a smaller scale, though). It was at a university and my dept was doing an outreach event for new grad students. One of them took a liking to a woman working our table, so he sent an email to the general email address of our department, asking about her and whether or not she was single. EVERYONE on our team saw this email. The woman was mortified, even though of course it wasn’t her fault and the student was completely out of line. I think someone sent him back a firm note that he’d been pretty inappropriate.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Ugh! What a creep! If I’d been that woman, I would have been horrified and grossed-out, not to mention embarrassed at how unprofessional the guy had been.

  64. Rebecca*

    My report from this week in the dysfunctional office: Manager took MORE work away from her friend, who already has a light workload, and assigned more work to me. I smiled and said sure, no problem…as I await an in person interview with another company. I will happily take any other job at this point, as long as I can pay my bills. It gets to a point where favoritism, lack of management, poor communication, and a general lack of business norms become too much to bear.

    Oh, and apparently the emergency of earlier this week wasn’t a real emergency after all. Manager demanded that I drop everything and check to see if everyone in the office had a specific browser on their systems because we were going to use a new web based program that required this specific browser. I’m not in IT, but I did what I was asked, proceeded as far as I could, then emailed the specific questions that needed to be answered in order to proceed. **crickets** This was 3 days ago. I’m just rolling my eyes.

  65. Biff*

    I’ve got a question about gifting. My boss has gone above and beyond the call of duty to help our team get more flexible hours and some work-from-home days each week. Even though I’ve only been on the new hours for two weeks, the difference is phenomenal. I have more energy, I’m sleeping again. I don’t feel overwhelmed every day. I’d like to get her something small as a thank you, but I know that the usual rule is “no gifting up.” Would this be an acceptable exception?

    1. Leatherwings*

      What if you baked her something and included a note about how much you’ve been enjoying the extra time you’ve had, and how it has brought balance to your life?

      1. Biff*

        I was thinking about a small box of gourmet candy — something I know she likes. I’ve never seen her go for baked goods, but I can bake and that might just the ticket.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      With 99.9% of bosses and 99.9% of gifts and 99.9% of situations, a note expressing sincere appreciation for her — with specifics — will be far more meaningful and treasured than any physical gift. Go for the note, seriously. I still have notes like that that people have written me; I definitely do not still have trinkets or other physical objects I’ve been given at work.

        1. MommaTRex*

          Baked goods that you personally made sounds more appropriate than buying chocolates. But definitely the nice note. Maybe even a short note to her supervisor on how much you appreciate her. And then your energy and awesome work – that is the best gift of all! :)

        2. Camellia*

          I think no gift at all, just the note. That bypasses all the possible issues of appropriateness of gifting up, liking what you’ve made, etc. Plus, baked goods just bring an air of, I don’t know, domesticity to the office that just doesn’t feel professional and kind of makes the note seem like it is second-place.

          Go for a win-win and compose an awesome note that will have pride-of-place as the sole expression of your gratitude and appreciation. I guarantee it will be deeply appreciated!

    3. Caroline*

      Does your company have an outlet for this kind of recognition? My company has a couple of different internal, established ways of saying “thank you,” from a small note of thanks to nomination for an award. I think this kind of gesture that occurs within the company is way more appropriate and also more likely to be appreciated, since it is actual recognition from the company that your boss can use to improve her standing there.

  66. Tomato Frog*

    I’ve done a couple of blog entries for my work. They’re rather nice blog entries, if I do say so myself. But blogging is not a regularly duty of mine, so I just have the two entries. Is there a good way to include these in a resume? They are a minor thing in the grand scheme of my employment, but on the other hand they showcase talents that are not otherwise showcased in my work history.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Or, depending on the situation, include hard copies of screen shots of them if you think that might work better.

  67. Good_Intentions*

    My supervisor is spazzing out

    Background: I am a long distance, independent contractor with a four-month contract at an organization focused on empowering college students to register and vote. Although I live and operate in a key swing state, I report to a woman in Washington, D.C.

    Set up: My supervisor is planning an out-of-state trip to another key swing state that has received nearly triple the amount of funding for staff and supplies than what I have. In fact, my state was the last added and the most underfunded. She is trying to plan her trip and deal with everything else, but she’s relatively inexperienced (first job out of college) and is sending cutting emails and demanding IMs.

    Issues:
    • Requesting to set up a webinar with less than 72 hours’ notice, then forgetting to send the log-in information until prompted at 4:45 p.m. the day before. The webinar was mid-morning and targeted full-time college students involved in other activities and with part-time jobs.
    • Asking for newly hired people who haven’t even met to agree on a single address to which to have materials delivered. Then, delaying actually sending out the materials for three business days!
    • IM-ing me to tell me to send all emails to her, not to include the attorney who oversees voter ID information. Why she didn’t’ just email me back with some guidelines on who I should email for specific questions/share info is beyond me. She also sent this IM less than an hour before I was supposed to present 15 slides during the webinar.
    • Not following up with me regarding a special meeting the CEO called with me and a representative from the second largest college with which the org partners. She didn’t ask anything, and when I mentioned it, her specific phrase was “do what you think is best.”
    • She also sent me an email template referring to a meeting she canceled with no explanation. I have double checked her calendar and see the meeting is totally removed, so I know the email has an error, but now I wonder if she plans on rescheduling it.

    Her whole demeanor is distracted, short tempered and uninterested in anything happening in my state.
    Aside from waiting out this behavior, is there anything constructive I can say or email to her about it? I was thinking something along the lines of: “I know you’ve been super busy with traveling and planning for voting events, so I want to say I appreciate everything you’ve done to help me with my outreach efforts. Given how little we engaged, I did want to follow up with you about some points of confusion. . .”

    Thoughts?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Your wording is perfect. She’s dropped the ball on you multiple times, and you definitely need to address the issues with her now.

  68. JeannieNitro*

    A series of related questions:

    1) How to do you go about asking for a raise when your company does weekly one-on-ones instead of annual performance reviews? I’m assuming you go about it basically the same, but just bring it up once it’s been about a year

    2) I was talking to some coworkers about said one-on-one vs annual review structure, and one of them said “yeah, it’s all just a ploy to prevent them from giving you six month or yearly raises” – conspiracy aside, are “six month raises” really a thing? Wouldn’t 6 months be too soon in a job to ask for a raise?

    3) I am pregnant & will be having the baby basically 1 year after I started this job and I’m wondering how this affects the timing of the raise conversation. Do I do it before (hey, I’ve worked here for a year now so I deserve a raise . . . but I’m leaving for the next 4 months for maternity leave), or after (hey, I’ve worked here for more than a year now, but I don’t have any achievements from the last 4 months because I was on maternity leave), or much, much after (hey, I’ve worked here for like a year and a half now, do I get a raise?). My instinct is towards waiting until after I’ve been back from maternity leave for a while. However, I’m worried that I would get the same raise after 1 year or after 1.5 years, so if I wait until 1.5 years to ask for it, I’d be “selling myself short” or “missing out on income” or “setting myself up for less money in the long term” or something.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      That’s just weird that they think regular meetings replace annual reviews — best practices would be both!

      I’d say you can ask for the raise before you go on leave, but I think there might be bosses/jobs that would find it presumptuous. Do you have any sense of what kind of job you’re in?

      1. JeannieNitro*

        I don’t know, I’m still fairly new here . . . the sense I got from talking to my coworkers last week was that nobody gets a raise (not even cost of living one) unless they ask for it, so seems like the kind of culture where you don’t get a raise unless you get promoted. But that’s a sample size of 2, so not particularly representative. On the one hand, the company does a *lot* to make its employees feel good, to “improve the culture”, etc, but I could certainly see how that could be to “make people feel so good about working here that they don’t ask for raises”. I don’t know. It’s only my second job out of college, so I’m not sure how to get a good read. My last job I had bosses who advocated for raises for me.

          1. Lily Rowan*

            So maybe you’ll ask and the answer will be no, but I’d say go ahead and ask. That’s ridiculous.

    3. MommaTRex*

      I’d say don’t overthink the maternity leave part of it. If it seems appropriate to ask after a year, then ask now.

    4. Jeni*

      We do weekly or biweekly check ins and annual reviews that coincide with and guide raises. I don’t think it’s a ploy. They serve two different purposes.

      I got a raise and promotion a few months after I came back from maternity leave. It was hellish to juggle work, no sleep at home, mom guilt, pumping in the conference room PLUS new responsibility but I muscled through and it was worth it for me. I wanted it to happen before I went on leave but it just didn’t feel like the right time. I think it would have come across as tone deaf on my part. Because there were already questions from clients about how I could manage their 12 month project when I was going to be gone for 3 months of it. It felt judgemental but also valid. They needed to know that we had capacity to cover while I was out.

  69. Daisy Grrl*

    Any tips on how to stay productive when your management team is actively, if unintentionally, undermining your work?

    I am responsible for overseeing the development of standard operating procedures at my job. Our office has been significantly under-resourced and seriously disorganised for several years and so when I arrived two years ago, there were no manuals, no procedures, nothing in writing. People just did whatever they felt like.

    We got a new director a while back who agreed that things needed to shape up and asked me to lead on the development of policies and procedures. I’ve been having real problems in making much headway because my director has told me that I must develop procedures through consensus (frankly, an impossible task in this office). Additionally, once a process is agreed to by all and implemented, managers are very uneven in terms of enforcement of new processes.

    So last week we were in a meeting where I was proposing new guidelines to standardize a process that is critical to our work. During my presentation, the director started talking and in the middle of her point she said that she doesn’t like rules. I felt completely undermined and frankly, no longer think I have the support necessary to be successful at my job. This all happened after I met with both my boss and the director to request that she be clear to all her managers that once a procedure is in place, management is expected to support and enforce it. She agreed that it was a reasonable request and agreed to make this an explicit expectation for the management team. But instead of doing that, she told them all that she doesn’t like rules (apparently she meant that she doesn’t believe rules should replace judgement, but that’s not what she said).

    So now I’m hunting for a new job. Until I can successfully jump ship, any tips on how to be effective in a job that isn’t supported by senior management?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure you can be effective. I think all you can do is remind your boss that if they do not buy into the SOPs, then there does not seem to be much point.

  70. super anon*

    I don’t know if this is a work specific question or would be more apt for the open thread, but I am wondering if anyone has any tips on how to react like a normal human being with someone gives you bad news about something that happened to them. I grew up in a family where we all kept a stiff upper lip and pretended like everything was okay (even when it clearly wasn’t), so I have absolutely no frame of reference on how to react when other people are upset. I am completely at a loss of how to best interact with people who are sad or crying. I feel horribly uncomfortable and awkward when this happens, and I think it shows on my face and in my actions after they tell me the bad news they heard. I think my inability to adequately show outward emotion and empathy properly might be reflecting badly on me at work and with my coworkers. I am a woman in her mid-20s, and rightly or wrongly, I think that my being a woman and also being unable to comfort people properly reflects badly on me.

    I have a coworker who is going through a rough patch right now. One of her close friends is dying from terminal cancer. My coworker will come to my office to vent about her day and sometimes she’ll bring her friend up. Every time she mentions this friend she starts to cry. I have no real idea how to respond to this. I am not a hugger or touchy feely person, so that’s not an option. I don’t want to say “it will be okay” because no it won’t, your friend is dying and nothing will change that. I’ve been going with a general “I’m sorry” and sit quietly and wait for her to compose herself, but even that feels wrong somehow. Eventually she’ll compose herself and carry on, but I get the sense she’s never happy with my reaction.

    Yesterday while we were at work she got a call to tell her that her cat had been run over by a car and died. My first reaction was to say “what??” followed by asking if it was an indoor cat or an outdoor cat. I have no idea why I would ask that – it’s not like it would make any difference to the sadness of the cat dying in such a traumatic way. She gave me a look like I was crazy and left to tell other people this bad news.

    To be honest, this whole thing has got me a bit down. It’s probably silly to be worried about, but I feel like it’s something I should be good at and I’m not, and it’s a skill I’ll definitely need to have to effectively manage people in the future.

    1. Karo*

      If it makes you feel any better, I grew up in a family where emotions were decidedly NOT taboo, and I still have no idea how to comfort people if they’re not the type of close friend where I can just hug them while they cry (so, basically, if they’re not my husband, and maybe sibs/parents, I’m at a loss).

    2. Cruciatus*

      I find I say “oh my God, that just plain sucks” or “Wow, that’s terrible” a lot. Whenever I hear someone died the first question I want to ask is if it was expected and then I tell myself not to ask that question because it has nothing to do with anything. I don’t even know why I want to know that. So I think you’re taking it much too hard. Not everyone is great at these circumstances. As long as you don’t say “Good, one less cat” or something I think it’s OK. But I just agree with the person how awful the circumstances are and that usually gets me through the conversation. I also let the other person lead and just add sympathetic words as needed. Next time you see that coworker just say “I’m so sorry about your cat” and I’ll bet she’ll forget about anything previous (if she hasn’t already).

      1. CanadianKat*

        A coworker’s father died recently, and I overheard (and read on a card) a very narrow set of standard canned phrases. Examples: I’m so sorry to hear that. My sincere condolences. This must be such a difficult time for you. Our thoughts are with you and your family in this difficult time.
        To me they feel a bit awkward, but apparently lots of people acutally use them, so they’re fine. Just a socially-acceptable way of acknowledging another’s suffering.

        If they’re actively crying, exactly what you’re doing is fine. You can also offer to take this person out for coffee. You can offer to bring them a glass of water (or tea/coffee if your office has that). If you’re meeting with them for work, you can offer to postpone the meeting a bit later.

        For what it’s worth, I would have also wanted to ask if it’s an indoor or outdoor cat. After expressing sympathy, of course! Perhaps the owner was upset by your question because she felt responsible for the cat’s death (for letting it be an outdoor cat, or for not prevening an indoor cat from running off)? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking if the recently deceased elderly relative had been sick or it was out of the blue. Sure, it’s none of my business. But it’s a way of showing my genuine interest and openness to hear, if the person wishes to talk.

        1. Somniloquist*

          One of my parents died years ago and here’s the thing… no phrase is going to make them feel better. However, they will remember that people were kind to them. So just saying something like what Alison suggested is perfect. Maybe getting a card if you have a closer relationship, but just conveying some sympathy in a stock phrase is entirely appropriate.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Like you, I grew up in a family that doesn’t show emotion in public. When I hear bad news, I pause and say (in the most sympathetic tone I can muster) “Oh no, I’m so sorry. Is there anything I can do to help you?” Generally they will say “No” and I’ll say “Well, let me know. I’m here for you.”

      And then return to work.

    5. AnonAcademic*

      I am like you, I respond like a robot to sad things (including the death of my own family members). I have a few convincing sympathetic phrases like “Oh god, that’s awful, I’m so sorry!” and then I just try to listen. Believe it or not just listening and asking questions non-judgementally is often more helpful to people than giving advice.

    6. Biff*

      That is really pretty awkward, and feels like it might be overstepping professional boundaries. I’m all for having flexible boundaries because we’re all human and reality strikes, but it might be time to tell her (not after one of her cries, but maybe in advance of one) that you are very sorry about her friend, her cat, and the rough patch she’s had lately, but you need to focus on other things when you are in the office.

    7. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I am not an overly touchy-feely sort of person either and I have a very curious nature so I WANT to ask inappropriate questions but have learned not to. Good responses are:
      I’m sorry to hear that
      That must be awful
      Is there anything I can do (especially good for neighbors or coworkers who may be in and out for a while since part of the stress of going through personal tragedy is dealing with day to day matters – for example after my sister lost her MIL very suddenly I went to the grocery store for them; nice and practical and very helpful)
      Offer a tissue for tears and pat a hand if it isn’t super awkward

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Actually you are pretty normal given your setting. And there are plenty of people out there who feel similarly. I was never good at it and sometimes I am still not good at it even though I have had life stuff happen.

      The best thing to do is validate the person’s upset and express concern, as others have shown here.

      Remember that crying is healthy, it releases chemicals in the brain that keep the brain healthy. The quickest way to get a crying person to stop crying is to tell them “yep, go ahead, cry it out. I’d be crying too if it were me.” You could tell ME this and it would work on me even though I know that you are using a technique on me. See, it’s very powerful to hear another human being say that it okay to cry.

      Going the opposite way, if you tell a person not to cry, you could be there for hours with them.

      There might be times where you know what a person needs, such as they need a ride somewhere and you can help with that somehow. Sometimes you can steer a person to someone who will help them: Jan and Sue are BFFs. Jan is crying and you know you can help her find Sue.

      Don’t be afraid to ask for what you need to help them. I told one crying person that they had to talk slower and clearer so I could understand what they were saying and then I could help them. Worked like a charm, after that I could understand every word. They wanted help.

      Keep in mind that this is something no one masters and no one does perfectly. So no, this is nothing you “should be” good at. It’s more important to be sincere and listen. You will see times where you can help the person figure out their next step in handling their crisis. “Well, it sounds like it would be a good idea for you to call your brother/mother/SO. Would you like to go do that now?”

    9. Turquoise Teapot*

      Most people find those kinds of situations awkward. As in feeling a lot of empathy but not knowing what to say. I think anything that acknowledges that it’s a bad situation is fine. “Oh, that’s horrible! I’m here if you ever need to talk. I don’t always know what to say, but I can be a good listener.” “Wow, that’s awful. I can’t imagine.”

  71. Jemerson60060*

    I recently started a a non-profit job back in May, I was hired at a salary a little under what I was looking for, but benefits were better than I ever hoped so I accepted.

    I am on a 6 month probationary period during the time I have been here I have had a lot of praise from people in the office and from our main office. I would like to think it’s well deserved. I was planning on asking for a raise at the 6 month mark in November, citing the work that I have done and good feed back.

    We are a small office 5 full-time staff people. We recently had a very experienced employee “Senior teapot maker” leave I would venture to guess he commanded a pretty high salary, high 5 figures to low 6 would be my guess.

    On my last paycheck I received notice that I was being given a 4% raise about $1,200. I don’t know for sure but it seems like everyone was given a raise. Everyone else received same envelope with pink notice inside. All of our positions are underpaid compared to the private sector. My guess is with the “senior teapot maker” salary off the books they figured they can take a small portion of that redistribute it to everyone and save the majority of it.

    My question is should I still go ahead and ask for a raise at the 6 month mark still or wait for a year review? I am afraid I would risk looking ungrateful if I did. Even with the current raise and factoring the great benefits I am still underpaid compared to private sector, I do know it’s to be expected with non-profits, but still a little more money wouldn’t hurt.

    Thanks

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Typically in professional jobs you shouldn’t ask for a raise before a year, unless the job has really significantly changed. When you accepted that salary six months ago, you were sort of implicitly agreeing you were good with it for the next year.

    2. just another librarian*

      I would double-check that you were meant to be given that raise too! I’d rather find out now if it was a mistake, myself…

  72. TSG*

    Hi all!

    I was promoted a few months ago and was put on sort of a probationary period for the first 90 days. I was given half of my salary raise then, and was told I’d get the other half after I passed the time frame and moved into the full position.

    I’ve been told the change will take place this month, however, I’m wondering if I can/how I can go about trying to negotiate for more money? While it’s a pretty normal salary for this company, it’s well-below the market average for our industry and location. Am I stuck just getting what they told me I would in June or do I have wiggle room to try and get more?

    1. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      Did you accept the position based on certain terms like salary and benefits? If so, it seems disingenuous to now go back and try to renegotiate those terms.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Yes, don’t do this – it would give the appearance of acting in bad faith. You’ll be souring the relationship with your employer. You should have negotiated the raise when they offered you the promotion.

  73. Sara M*

    Hi all. I’m struggling with my job.

    I always worked hourly jobs before, where you showed up and did your thing. There were quotas or something so I’d know when my day is done.

    Now I’m self-employed. The work is much more feast-or-famine. It’s very hard to know when I’ve done enough for the day. I feel like I… didn’t learn something about work? How to assess tasks and progress? Something?

    Anyone gone through this? I’d love suggestions for how to balance my workload and figure out how much to do in a day. Or a better identification of my problem, if I’m not seeing it. Thanks.

    1. A Good Jess*

      I don’t remember if links come through on comments, but I think you might like David Seah’s Concrete Goals Tracker.

      He sat down and identified his major goals, then assigned points to different types of tasks. Tasks that contribute directly to those goals have higher points, while lower-level enabling or maintenance tasks are worth fewer points. Then he tries to rack up as many points as he can for the week, and the best way to do that is to make progress on major goals.

      So maybe you could do something similar? He has a downloadable version of the form available, and you can customize it with your own goals/tasks. After working with it for a while, maybe you can set yourself a point quota for each day or week. It could also help you with shifting the balance of tasks between feast and famine modes… during feast modes focus on the tasks that get deliverables out to clients, and then during famine modes you’d shift over to more maintenance tasks.

    2. self employed*

      This is super-common. You have to motivate yourself when you’re self-employed, not just rely on external motivations of your boss, etc. Love the links that A Good Jess posted and will check them out. Maybe the GTD system could work, as well.

      What is your task-list like? Do you have priority “must do” items that you choose each day? Perhaps scheduling out what you are going to work on at what time of day might help. Are you paid hourly or by project?

      You’re probably going to have to use some trial and error to see what works for you. Good luck.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have friends who are self-employed. Unfortunately, they push themselves beyond their limits. I have had to chat with them and explain if you need $10k in medical care because of working 18 hour days, you are not making a profit here.

      And there is the law of diminishing returns. One friend would just be blind tired in hour ten of his work day. What good is that? If it takes you 45 minutes to do a 10 minute task, you are better off going home and getting some rest.

  74. Frustrated*

    I attempted to refer a former colleague (and now personal friend) to an open role at my current company and even followed up with both the hiring manager (who is my temporary manager) and the lead recruiter on her behalf. This week my colleague let me know that she finally got the “thanks but no thanks” email from the recruiting team – they just rejected her outright and didn’t even phone screen her.

    From reading AAM I realize that this happens quite a bit in hiring, so I don’t really hold it against my current company. Yet I can’t help but feel really guilty that she didn’t even get a phone screen – I wonder if there was anything else I could have said or done that could have at least convinced the hiring team to give her a chance.

    And for unrelated reasons I’m really frustrated at the hiring process here anyway, because it’s dragged on for months. The few people that have been brought in for face-to-face interviews were friends of senior executives who got fast-tracked in on the merits of their personal connections.

    And every time I talk to the hiring managers it sounds like the job requirements have changed significantly since the description was first posted – yet, no one wants to pull the requisition down to revise it to be more accurate to what we’re looking for, so we keep getting candidates who aren’t a great fit – which isn’t their fault, because they’re going off of the inaccurate description that was posted. It just seems so unfair to them that we’re saying one thing but really we need another, and then rejecting them when they don’t fit the requirements that they don’t know about. Ugh, ugh, ugh. I’m glad it’s Friday.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t think there’s anything you can do, per se, but wow, that’s rude of your company. Most places I’ve worked will do a courtesy phone screen for an employee referral no matter what. Don’t feel guilty! You absolutely held up your end of the bargain, and your company dropped theirs.

      1. N.J.*

        Isn’t it a waste of everyone’s time though if they do a courtesy phone screen just to Humphrey a referral? Why get that person’s hopes up or waste staff’s time if there is no chance for that person for a job? That seems a bit cruel actually and as a job candidate I would be pretty mad about something like that.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Totally agree — I know a lot of places do them, but I think it’s the opposite of courteous. Making someone spend time preparing, dealing with interview nerves, and possibly taking time off work when you know you won’t hire them isn’t courteous. What they really should be called is “relationship preservers” — because it’s just about preserving the relationship with the referrer.

      2. Frustrated*

        On the one hand I would have appreciated a bit more insight into why there wasn’t a phone screen or indeed any kind of internal response to my referral. I get that it’s not something a hiring manager owes to an applicant, but even a response to my internal referral letting me know that she wasn’t going to be considered would have been appreciated so that I know for next time in case I ever want to refer anyone else.

        From being on the inside, I know that my friend didn’t meet at least one of the “need to have’s” up front – 100% of the people in similar roles at my org have Masters and she doesn’t even have an AA. At other places this probably wouldn’t have been a dealbreaker, but I now know that it is here. (I myself didn’t realize that this was non-negotiable until well after she had applied and noticing a pattern in the phone screens.)

        It still sucks that they didn’t give her a chance at all, but at the same time I get that if that requirement really is non-negotiable, then it’s better not to waste anyone’s time. Still sad for her, and sad for myself that the hiring process continues to get stretched out.

  75. Anon31*

    I currently work as a marketing manager in a smallish company, and am interviewing for a marketing manager role at a much larger company. In the first phone interview, they confirmed that the salary budgeted for this position is about 50% more than what I currently make. While that sounds awesome, my fear is that a pay bump that big must mean it’s a very demanding job with long hours. Maybe I’m wrong though, and I’m just currently making a low salary for my role. What sorts of questions should I be asking in the upcoming interview stages to get a decent sense of what their work life balance is like? Obviously nobody will ever say that it’s horrible and you don’t get to have a life, but are there certain things that can give me a better sense?

    1. EyesWideOpen*

      Have you researched salaries for your position in your city to confirm that you are earning a reasonable salary? If not, I would start there.

      As for the interview and since you are concerned about it, I would ask about their work/life balance. I would also ask what the expected hours are. I once took a job only to find out the expected hours was not an 8 hour day but a 12 hour day.

    2. designbot*

      Ask about overtime and comp time policies in a broad way. This will usually prompt a deeper answer like “well the salary for this role reflects the degree of dedication we expect from the person we hire. Is that a problem for you?” OR “Things come up occasionally that require some extra hours but generally we all try to get home at a reasonable hour, so we don’t really feel that comp time is necessary.”

    3. Chaordic One*

      I think that I would avoid mentioning my current salary using the techniques that Alison has mentioned before, and I’d focus on saying that the range you were looking for was X to Y. Then ask questions about what a typical day is like and the questions recommended by EyesWideOpen and designbot. Maybe also ask about who (if anyone) you would be managing.

  76. RevengeoftheBirds*

    I want to preface this comment by saying I LOVE my job and I especially love the team that I’m working with. I’m learning a lot and I truly value all the opportunities I’ve been given. Additionally, they all give consistent and ongoing feedback and I love it — constructive and/or otherwise I really appreciate it.

    Saying that, right now I’m kind of a displaced person in our office. My workstation is being renovated and I have the option to work from home, but given the set up that wouldn’t really work. So my question here is – How do I temporarily survive having no defined location to hang my hat when I come into the office?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Tell you boss that you are not sure where you should put yourself and your work necessities. The boss should have an idea of where you should land for the moment.

  77. Locks*

    I need some job search advice!

    I’m an engineer by training and worked in construction management for nearly six years. The job wasn’t the best fit for me so I never made it to the position of project manager, but rather was stuck in a more junior role.

    In March this year, faced with a horrible construction project and knowing I would be too exhausted by work to job search, I quit my job. I am looking to leave the engineering field entirely. I had hoped to pursue a MLIS online while working somewhere, but wasn’t accepted. Now I’m looking mostly for full time admin assistant roles, and I will come up with a new plan from there. I’m considering getting an admin diploma because so many employers in my area ask for it, but having spoken with administrators, they’ve mostly assured me that I have the skill set required for the job.

    Anyway, what I’m wondering is should I try to scrub my engineering credentials as much as possible out of my resume, or do I just need to be writing really compelling cover letters? I am serious about this and aware of the difference in income, etc. but I’m sure this is raising eyebrows with hiring managers. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

    1. Technical Editor & Resume Reviewer*

      Anyone who makes a major career change like that is going to be given the eyebrow-raise. Moving from engineering to to admin is a significant change, and you will have to explain it in your cover letter, and more than likely in much more detail should you get an interview.

      If you were my resume client, this is what I would do:
      * Change your accomplishments at engineering jobs to reflect admin/support/project management.
      * Scrub engineering-related skills/tools from the Skills section and replace with typical admin skills/technologies (Word, Acrobat, calendar management, travel booking, mailings, etc)
      * Keep your bachelor’s degree on, but move the education to the end. Do not mention your master’s degree, if you have one, and is in engineering.
      * Explain in your cover letter, without disparaging your company, why you want to make the career shift. Also explain what you want _this_ job at _this_ company.

      I wouldn’t recommend an admin certificate unless you aren’t getting any interviews. Hope that helps!

      1. Locks*

        Thank you! This is so helpful! I haven’t gotten many interviews so far but I guess I’ll see what happens after sending out a revised resume.

  78. Anonymous Educator*

    People in my field (different companies/orgs) have a Slack where we can help each other out, even with job postings.

    I have a teacher friend who would definitely benefit from something similar. Do teachers not have something like that? To commiserate, share lesson plans, share job postings? A message board or forum, a mailing list, a Slack?

    I mean, I realize teachers are mainly in the classroom all day and not just chatting on their computers…

    1. Rob Lowe can't read*

      Not that I know of, at least not in one centralized location. To be honest, though, I don’t know if I’d use something like that. If I need lesson ideas, I have Pinterest, Teachers Pay Teachers, and my colleagues. (And even when someone shares actual lesson plans with me, I rarely use them without quite a bit of reworking, because all classes are different.) If I need commiseration, I have those same colleagues – and I think that’s key, because they understand the situation in our school, which might not be the same in another location. And if I need job postings, there’s SchoolSpring and district websites. I suppose someone could create one site that is all of those things rolled into one, and that could be better than what exists now, but I see this as a case of “If it’s not broken, don’t fix it.”

      I think some company or organization presented an idea kind of like this to my School of Ed’s alumni group, but I wasn’t present at that meeting and haven’t tried it out.

  79. HRChick*

    I applied to grad school. I’m super nervous.

    The grad school asked for professional letters of recommendation, so some of the higher-level people at work know I applied.

    How big of a professional hit is it if I don’t get in?

    My undergrad degree (which I completed 10 years ago now) did not have the BEST GPA (2.7 basically). I wrote an essay about why I would succeed in grad school and displayed that I had professional experience in increasing complexity in the area of study. I’m hoping that they won’t make me take the GMAT. My graduate POC said he was also personally writing a letter of recommendation for me. But, I’m still freaking out!

    The waiting period is the hardest part :(

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      If a GMAT wasn’t required for admission, I very much doubt they’ll ask you to take it later down the line. However, as someone who works in higher ed admissions, know that a GPA below 3.0 will be a deal-breaker for some programs.

      If you get denied, you can always tell your recommenders that you decided not to move forward with the program.

      1. CanadianKat*

        Personally, I would feel “decided not to move forward with the program” would be lying. It means the decision was actually HRChick’s. The recommender might then ask: “Oh, how come? It’s a really good program, and would be so good for your career development.” And then HRChick would have to either admit to having lied or dig herself in even further.

        If you want to obfuscate, you can say that it didn’t work out. It’s transparent, but doesn’t sound as bad as “I was rejected.” You can also hint that you’ll try again next year, with a wider range of schools, or that you’ll try other strategies. (Standardized tests are not hard to prep for, if you’re willing to do a lot of studying. Maybe taking the GMAT will actually help you if you ace it.)

      2. HRChick*

        I looked at this programs website and they do have waivers for professional experience, which is really good for me. My first two years of college were performed under severe anxiety and depression that were undiagnosed and then medicated. I’d hate to have my entire career stonewalled because of my disorders :(

        Thanks for the wording, all! I will hope to get in!

    2. just another librarian*

      I don’t think it’s a big hit if you don’t get in. If anyone asks why you’re not attending, you can just say “it didn’t work out” and be vague. Or “I decided to put it off for a few years. Thanks for writing the letter. I really appreciate it.”

    3. RevengeoftheBirds*

      I wouldn’t think anything of someone not getting into grad school. Isn’t that the gamble? You apply and you may or may not get in.

  80. Breaking Barriers*

    Hi there.

    I’m currently in a full time role as a contractor in the UK, and I was curious to know how you would deal with companies that specifically hire students from certain universities.

    I’ve dealt with this when I was applying for graduate schemes and certain corporations tend to favour universities, in which they provided the students with tips for applications and interviews, and even hosted talks and events on campus. For certain firms, in particular small ones, its harder to get information on them unless you attend these events. And in that case, unless you happen to be a student or graduate from these favour universities, it becomes even harder.

    How would you overcome this type of barrier?

    1. PX*

      Research. There’s lots of information online especially when it comes to graduate recruitment so this is one area where good Google-fu can make a difference

  81. Anon222*

    My company has these amazing trips to educate employees on the company and to show appreciation. We send them for 3 days to a nearby country where they attend company museums, see the manufacturing process, and experience the product for themselves. So far everyone has been so excited about this opportunity and anyone that has come back said it’s the most amazing work experience they’ve ever had! The only problem is because the destination is so unusual, the flight options are horrible. They always have a transfer despite only being a four hour flight, and dreadful departure times.

    One employee took two months to get me his passport, so when I was finally able to book the flight he got even worse options than usual. He won’t touch down on the return flight until 10:30pm, which means not getting to his home until 1:30am! I sympathize but I also feel like this would have been avoided if he gave me his documentation earlier. For comparison, most people’s return flight lands in the city at around 7:30pm.

    He says that if he found this out earlier he wouldn’t have gone (it’s not optional). Of course I feel bad but my main concern is that he’ll miss out on the benefits of this trip because he’s so focused on the flight details.

    How do you help someone get excited about a moral boosting trip when they’re determined to be a Debby Downer?

    1. Dawn*

      “How do you help someone get excited about a moral boosting trip when they’re determined to be a Debby Downer?”

      Some people hate flying, some people hate taking trips, and some people don’t have a passport. This guy doesn’t sound like a Debby Downer, he sounds completely rational about having to get home super crazy late (and having to transfer flights both ways) because his company is SENDING HIM TO ANOTHER COUNTRY FOR THREE DAYS for no reason other than to go do stupid company stuff. It’s not a vacation, it’s not even a conference where you can peace out back to your hotel room when you get tired, it’s three days IN ANOTHER COUNTRY doing corporate rah-rah-rah stuff the entire time you’re there, so you have to be professional all the time and can’t just decide to skip some of it if you get tired.

      Why did he “take two months” to get you his passport? Did he not have one already? Did you not explain exactly why you needed it and the consequences of not getting it ASAP?

      1. Anon222*

        Thanks for responding! I definitely agree with what your saying, its a crummy spot for him to be in and it’s a terrible flight schedule.

        I guess I’m more concerned about him coming back less excited about working here because of the inconvenience of the whole thing. He’s a great employee and right now he views his relationship with the company as transactional (which is totally fine) but I don’t want this trip to make him go from transactional to it’s a really bad place to work.

        Do you have any advice for how we could turn this situation around and help to make it a more positive experience for the employee?

        Side note: it is rah-rah and you can’t skip out of portions but it’s incredibly laid back and I’ve had multiple reports of people partying like it’s going out of style, so while I know that won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, its definitely not an uptight affair which hopefully will appeal to more people.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Can you let him skip this one and go to the next one, when he’ll have enough lead time to get better flights? If these trips are supposed to be to show appreciation, this one sounds like it’s not meeting that bar.

          1. Anon222*

            He can’t unfortunately! We’re on such a strict timeline with sending employees because there are so many that have to go in such a short period… I feel like I’m coming across as shooting down ideas and that’s definitely not my intent. All employees have known this will be happening for the last nine months and this employee knew his specific dates since late June. This is the first negative reaction I’ve heard officially or otherwise in that time from anyone so it caught me completely off guard.

        2. Pearl*

          I am someone who hates traveling and especially being on planes. There is not really anything that would make me feel better about arriving in the city at 1:30 am. I am assuming he gets the next day off, if it’s not a weekend? If not, make sure he gets the day off without having to use PTO. If I had to use PTO to recover from a company trip that got in at 1:30, especially one that sounds more on the pep rally side than the actual product training side, I’d be irritated enough to start considering how long-term I consider this job to be.

          1. Anon222*

            My apologies, I meant he’ll be in his own home by 1:30 am on Wednesday. That’s what I’m speaking to my boss about today, him having the next day off as a day to recover.

          2. Anon222*

            We at least okayed him to come in late the following day, which he seems to be okay with! I can’t think of what else I can do to help make this a positive experience for him

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Oh boy. I get home at 1;30 am, I won’t be into work the next day at all. I think I am beginning to see the problem here.

    2. Kay*

      I don’t think you can get someone excited about a morale-boosting trip when it’s so inconvenient and involves being away from home in an unfamiliar environment for several days in a row. Not everyone is into that sort of thing. I think the more you try and get him excited about it, the more uncomfortable you’ll make him. It’s okay for him to not be excited about it. Everyone has parts of their job they don’t enjoy and, for him, it sounds like this is one of them.

      If it is required that he attend, why not find him a hotel near the airport for when he returns? It sounds like he lives a good distance from the airport. Could you at least get him a hotel right by the airport to avoid the three-hour trek home in the middle of the night?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, this does not sound like fun to me at all. I’d be very worried about driving while exhausted, also.

        Debbie Downer, #2, I guess. I am not seeing why this is great and it would be a super extra large inconvenience for me. Driving home late at night while tired AND then reporting for work the next day, that would be too much for me.
        I don’t think you can make him perk up here, OP. If he does not quit the job on the spot consider that the best you can get here.

      2. C Average*

        Here are my thoughts.

        a) Drop any ideas about this being his fault due to the whole passport thing. People who are getting their passports for the first time often don’t have any idea how long it takes, and the dude probably figured it’s one of those one-day hassles like going to the DMV. Even if it’s 100% his fault–i.e., he was fully informed about both passport-getting timeframes and the fact that his procrastination about getting a passport could result in a less desirable itinerary–it’s done, and he’s going to feel better about this if it’s not being drilled into him repeatedly that the whole itinerary fiasco is basically his fault. If you’ve been mentioning that to him, stop. He’ll have that passport for some years to come and won’t face this situation again soon, so harping on the subject isn’t even a useful cautionary tale in this case.

        b) Give him the full day off the next day.

        c) Consider Kay’s suggestion to spring for a cheap hotel room near the airport for him so that he can drive home well-rested the following day.

        d) Reiterate to him that the company really cares about making this trip a memorable, premium experience for its employees, that you want him to get as much out of this trip as possible, and that you’re hopeful that some of the schedule-related issues won’t be in play if he takes similar trips in the future.

        e) If there’s an opening, ask him whether he has any concerns or misgivings about this trip. If it’s his first time out of the country, he may have some rookie questions that could be easily answered, vastly improving his trip. If he is nervous about the trip, consider pairing him with a colleague who’s also going and is a more experienced and enthusiastic traveler, to make sure he has someone available to help him should he need it.

        1. C Average*

          Also, if it’s generally considered okay to skip any of the planned activities to rest or get some down time, make sure he is aware of those norms. If other people are able to step away and recharge, make sure he has those opportunities as well and isn’t feeling pressured to do every single thing.

  82. Caledonia*

    So I’m trying to relocate for my new job which starts in Edinburgh on October 10th. I already pushed it back a week to that date, in order for me to have an extra week finding somewhere to live.

    Finding somewhere to live, on my salary, is proving somewhat impossible. So I’m just wondering if anyone has any idea of what to put in an email to my manager to be, that basically boils down to “I am freaking out because I can’t find anywhere to live and what do I do?” Can I ask her to put round an email for me to see if any colleague that don’t know me have a room they could give me & my cat?

    It’s almost getting to the point where I feel as if I have to give up the job or my cat, and neither of those is something I want to do. My anxiety is really out of control, so rational thoughts are hard to come by, which is why I’m asking.

    Urgh, relocating is such a freaking b*tch.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I wouldn’t go so far as to ask for a room, but I don’t think anything would be wrong with saying “I’m having a difficult time finding an affordable place to live that allows pets; do you happen to know of any apartments or rooms where I could keep a cat?”

      (Also, I love Edinburgh and I’m jealous, although I know being there as a tourist is way different from trying to live there.)

    2. Anon222*

      Have you checked the University Websites? They usually have info on how to find affordable housing in town.

      Good luck, I hope you and your cat love Scotland, check out the Scottish country dancing scene, it might help you meet people outside of work.

      1. Caledonia*

        I’m Scottish :) – yes, the uni doesn’t have very much help for admin related positions, it’s more focused on the academic side (& their related pay) and I’ve already tried/trying the websites they suggest.

    3. anonforthis*

      ask for general advice on housing, you can add that you’re struggling to find appropriate housing

      we recently relocated and were freaking out with a few WEEKS to go as we’d got nowhere with housing and sent an email to OH new boss and got loads of information back straight away and found somewhere by the end of the week

      just a tip as this is also something we did, airbnb have a lot of cheap places (and some people can be quite flexible so there’s potential r.e. cat) if you end up with a short interim period, it’s not always THAT much more than normal rent+bills and it might be easier to find something on location

  83. Amber Rose*

    I start the audit next week and I truly have no idea what I’m doing. Fun times!

    Funny story for the week: I got my certificate for passing my audit course. Except what it says is:
    This Certifies that Amber Rose has Successfully Completed Amber Rose.

    Am I dead? =P

    2. Sibley*

      Sounds about normal. Audit classes cover theory, not practice because there’s such a wide variety of ways to do things. Assuming you’ll have a Senior or Lead, you’ll be fine. They’ll expect you to know nothing. Do your best.

  84. Simms*

    So I am moving across the country because of my husband going to school in this new area. That unfortunately means I have two short jobs on my resume after my long one. I had intended to stay at my last job for longer. I know two short jobs in two years isn’t great but that is almost only due to moving. I moved to Canada two years ago and are now moving across the country. We do plan to stay where we are moving though as the region is much better job wise then where we are now.

    How should I approach this in cover letters and interviews so I can minimize the appearance of being a job hopper?

  85. Mirilla*

    Anyone here Quickbooks certified and is so where did you learn? I’m thinking about doing the self pace program. I’m not getting anywhere on my job search so I’m hoping this will help.

  86. Muriel Heslop*

    Yesterday I got approval for a new class section in the spring: Social Skills! I’ll be working on practical social/life skills with students who are receiving services for ED/BD/ASD and I am so excited! I’ve taught something like this before and it went really well, so I am hopeful it will go well again (different campus.) Also great: I don’t have to teach Study Skills anymore! (I hate it.)

    1. Turquoise Teapot*

      That sounds cool. I think a social skills class would be relevant to a lot of people. Yeah, I know how that sounds, haha. But what I mean is that I think it’s a common experience for people to feel awkward in some social situations and not know how to handle some things. You could work in some diversity training too, go over the norms in different cultures and other differences in how people communicate.

  87. AnonToday*

    I’m trying to figure out how to deal with a potentially delicate situation. My long term boyfriend and I are splitting up. It’s incredibly sad, but part of me is also excited and hopeful, because I’ve realized I’m gay (the main reason for the split) and I’m excited to explore this new side of me. My boyfriend has been nothing but supportive and I think we will always be very close friends.

    The issue: how do I explain this to co-workers? A few people have met him and I had pictures of him up at my desk up until this week (I’ve been taking them down slowly to avoid any sudden/obvious change.) People are going to bring him up and I…just say “oh, we split up?” I hate sad faces, so I don’t want people pitying me, and I’m really not ready to come out at work. What do I do?

    1. Dawn*

      Well, I think you’re going to have to say you split at some point, and people will probably react with sad faces, but you can absolutely write your own narrative about it by how you respond. Convo will probably go “How are you and Fergus doing?” “Oh, actually we split up” “[insert sad faces and sad sounds]” -here’s where you write the narrative- “Thanks, but the relationship had run its course and we’re amicable about the whole thing”/ “Aw, no big deal! It was just time to split up- we’re still friends”/ “Oh we’re still friends, it’s just that the relationship wasn’t really working out for us.” I bet after you have that convo two or three times at work word will get out and people will stop asking.

      As for the WHY you split up, that’s no one’s business but your own, so you don’t have to come out at work until you’re good and ready to.

    2. ZVA*

      I agree with everything Dawn said—just remember that your coworkers aren’t entitled to any more info about your personal life than you’re willing to share! If they ask something like why you took the pictures down, set the tone by saying something brief & light like “Oh, we actually broke up, but I’m sure we’ll always be close friends”; if you’re not visibly sad about it, I bet people will follow your lead. No need to come out at work until you’re ready; I’m not out to anyone at my workplace, and given the kind of workplace it is I probably never will be!

      Also—congrats on realizing you’re gay, and best of luck :)

    3. CanadianKat*

      I second everything above. I’ll add that your colleagues will be relieved at not having to be sad about it. Many people feel awkward about expressing sympathy, and if you set the tone as positive, they’ll be glad to be positive in response.

      -signed, person who hasn’t revealed my split from my husband to my coworkers, because I don’t want to feel that I have to explain and I don’t want sympathy faces. However, since it really is a big deal for me (we have a small child), I can’t pretend to be cheerful about it. So, for the past 11 months, I’ve been saying “we” – referring to me and child, which coworkers likely interpret as including husband. Commenters here have persuaded me not to feel guilty about it.

    4. AnonToday*

      Thank you all so much!! I definitely believe that the way I respond (manner, tone, facial expression) can shape the dialogue, so I’ll be extra cognizant of that when answering people. I guess I’m also anxious about trying to plan for wayyy in the future when I (hopefully) start dating girls, and answering the questions that will come from that, but I don’t want to get ahead of myself for now.

  88. New Job Judy*

    So I left my old job after some management changes resulted in very political layoffs for my department. Even though I felt secure, I had a sour taste in my mouth from the whole thing. Enter new job with better pay, lots of room to grow, and a chance to work for old colleagues I really respect.

    Problem is, now I’m finding out that outside of all the hype for the company culture, the new company has a lot of shady practices. Not reviewing teapot reports before filing them, billing for teapot inspection but not inspecting them til after they’ve gone to market, telling employees from acquired companies that they’ll stay on but then reducing them to part time (“Oh, it was in your offer letter, didn’t you see?”)…

    I’m proud of the work my department does. We all have very high standards for quality and ethics, and our product is solid. I just get discouraged when I see all the crappy behavior that occurs on an institutional level. Does anyone else have experience with this? I love everything else about my job, but I’m trying to make peace with what’s going on outside my realm of control. Any advice?

  89. Loose Seal*

    I hope this is in the right Open Thread. I feel like my blogging is a job so I’ve put my questions here. However, if people think it is better suited for the weekend thread, I’d be glad to move it.

    I’ve been working on a recipe blog since about April. I wonder if I can pick the brains of people who have a blog that you are trying to make into a business or who already have succeeded in doing so? It’s safe to say I don’t even know what I don’t know so I have a short list of questions but would be incredibly grateful if you answered questions I don’t know I should have. (Googling tutorials on blogging for profit leads me to link like “The One Weird Trick to Get 1 Gazillion Followers by Tuesday!!1!!” which doesn’t really help me but gets them a click so I guess it works for them?)

    1. How do you make yourself write? I can work in the kitchen all day long tweaking recipes but when it comes to writing it up, I feel like I’m pushing a boulder up a hill. I never had any problems being motivated to work when I worked for other people/organizations; my paycheck was enough motivation, thank you very much! But since this isn’t seeing much profit, I have a hard time making myself carve out time for the writing portion.

    2. How personal do you get? I haven’t used my real name yet and am not sure I’m going to. I do some feminist activism on the side and am exposed to doxxing there and I don’t want it to carry over into my blog. I’ve watched The Next Food Network Star since the first season and the producers/judges always talk about how you have to make the recipes relatable to the real you otherwise people won’t care. I’m not against telling personal stories (that don’t particularly identify me or the other characters) but I don’t want to turn it into a personal diary either. Where’s the balance?

    3. Taxes. As I’ve mentioned, I’ve not made any money yet. But of course, I’ve spent money on specific things obviously related to the blog (web hosting, ad buys, food photography class) but there are other things that I’m not sure if I should claim, especially the cost of ingredients. I’m iffy on this because we eat what I cook, unless it’s just truly terrible — it’s happened twice that we’ve just had to throw something out — but I wouldn’t be buying 80% of the food I am buying now if I weren’t developing recipes out of it. But how is the IRS going to know that neither me nor my husband would eat pumpkin if we had a choice, yet I am planning to do 4 pumpkin recipes between now and (American) Thanksgiving?

    4. Ads. Right now I’m doing the Amazon native ad bar and I pick what’s in it. I am not against using AdSense really but I don’t want the entire site covered with ads like a lot of the recipe sites I go to. (My adblock caught 82 ads on one food blog page I clicked on the other day.) It seems like almost all food blogs are covered over in ads and popups. Any suggestions for ads or ad companies that aren’t intrusive but will actually make me some money?

    I would appreciate any advice anyone has on this subject. I would love it if this thing took off because I think there is a need for my particular audience but I honestly am just making things up as I go along which doesn’t seem to be getting me anywhere. (The blog is linked to my username, if you want to take a look.)

    1. Simms*

      Patreon is a really great option these days as a content creator. Bear in mind alot of people use ad blockers for exactly what you found which is many sites are covered with ads and it is hard and time consuming to make sure none of them are malicious.

      Personally the best recipe sites I use have a link to just the recipe so that people can skip the story if they want (or they like the recipe but don’t want to scroll through a story each time they make it.)

      1. Loose Seal*

        Thanks for mentioning Patreon. I think that’s a great idea. Also, thanks for reminding me about sticking a link to the recipe up top. The best recipe blogs I see have that too.

      1. Loose Seal*

        I get somewhere between 5 and 10 clicks every post. (I know, it’s embarrassingly low. I feel sure my mother is responsible for at least half of them.)

        I had planned to do a Google and Bing ad buy after I got some archive built up, maybe around the third week of November when people are starting to look around for Thanksgiving recipes. I was hoping that might help to get some clicks that lead to subscribers. I got my best traffic on my gluten-free pizza crust recipe after I bought Facebook’s “boost post” option — around 50 clicks. I was actually kind of pleased with that although I have no idea if it’s a good bang for my buck. I was just happy that random people I don’t even know clicked on and shared my page.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ah! In that case, I actually wouldn’t worry about trying to monetize it through ads at this point — you’re just not likely to be able to do it without a really big increase in traffic (like at least a couple thousand hits a day). I’d focus more on building your traffic first and/or just doing it for the joy of it.

          (I actually think it’s really hard to build a money-making blog, to the point that you should only do it if your primary motivator is the love of writing it. I got really lucky with AAM, but the first few years it really was just motivated by the fun of doing it.)

          1. Loose Seal*

            Thank you! That at least gives me a number to shoot for.

            We’ve decided that I should give this my all for two years and then re-evaluate. If things haven’t picked up substantially by then, I may just move everything over to free WordPress account and go from there. Ideally, I’d like to at least make enough money to host the site or, if I’m doing great, pay our grocery bill. I’m not looking to become rich off this. Just self-supporting.

    3. Amber Rose*

      #2: Pick a writing persona name. Any name is fine. Then feel free to share why recipes are important to you, but as a reader I must say: please don’t make me read three pages of anecdotes about your childhood before you get to the point. If it doesn’t relate to the recipe in some way, and/or it’s much longer than the recipe, maybe share it on a day when you aren’t posting a recipe. Nothing makes me give up faster than rambling.

      1. Loose Seal*

        I get that. One of the recipe blogs I like puts a “print recipe” button at the very top of the post so people can skip right to it, which I think is great, especially if I’ve already read the post once and am coming back to make the recipe. I plan on doing that in the future (along with a “print” button at the bottom).

        I do write a lot, though. I try to give a bit of here’s what’s going on when I developed the recipe, then techniques — sometimes with pictures or video to demonstrate what it’s supposed to look like, then a comparison of the recipe vs. a full-fat, full-sugar version. I also try to be honest about my struggle with food and that sometimes takes up a paragraph or two.

    4. Gwen*

      How much social media do you use? I find that building a community on Instagram & participating in groups on Facebook are the major traffic drivers to my blog. I try not to over promote (I know I hate that), but if I really want to get a post out/am particularly proud of it, I try to go to a relevant group and be like “Hey, thought some of you might enjoy this! LINKY”

      I’ve signed up for some affiliate programs where I can place banners/links as I choose from companies I do like/want to work with. I just started, so no money details on that yet, but I’m a little hopeful?

      Can you batch your writing? IE, Sunday is Blog Writing day and you write and schedule all your posts for the week then? I try to do this as much as I can, or at least write up my thoughts & then I just have to take and plug in photos before putting it up.

      Looking through your blog, I think that you have a good amount of personality! I know a lot of my friends joke about the cliche food blogger “here’s a 10 paragraph story about my childhood, ok here’s how to make mashed potatoes” kind of post.

      Taxes I have no advice on haha.

      2. Loose Seal*

        I use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Pinterest. I’m trying to figure out Snapchat but this old fogey is having a hard time seeing the point of that one. I’ve read some good tutorials about what makes a good Pinterest pin but I need more of an archive before I can really do much of that. I use Instagram to post pictures of things I’m working on as sort of a “coming soon” feature as well as to connect with other food bloggers (who don’t even know I exist, of course). The Facebook page has some likes and I will continue to link there when I have a new post but I feel that’s so iffy — if people have a fast-moving feed, they may not see that I put something new out. I have no RSS subscribers which is baffling to me because that’s how I do all my blog reading.

        Thanks for the compliment about my personality! Everyone who knows me says that it reads just like I talk but they decline to say whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing.

        1. KR*

          Snapchat isn’t really helpful unless you’re posting things every day or several times a day. (Kind of like a “Look what I cooked today, look at my meal that I’m eating go online to find a recipe, ect”). Otherwise, your story won’t show up for the day. I don’t run a food blog, so I don’t know if others have found it useful though. We ditched it for our TV station because it was just too much work for not a lot of yield.

          1. Loose Seal*

            OK, that’s great information. The only reason I was considering it was that Food Network does a thing where one of the stars is responsible for the next 24 hours worth of content. I had just assumed that they were finding helpful. I’d rather just move on from it since I don’t have a good handle of what it could be used for and I’d rather concentrate on social media that I at least partially understand.

        2. Gwen*

          Yeah, I don’t think Snapchat is really important for a recipe blog, especially now that there’s Instagram Stories. Pinterest will def be good for you! Have you claimed your blog on Bloglovin? I feel like that’s replaced a traditional RSS aggregator for a lot of people.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think you mean that you have to prove to the IRS that you both dislike pumpkin.

      Check with your tax person, but I think that if you have the date of the post, the name of the recipe and a list of ingredients and their individual prices (receipted), that should be satisfactory. You just need to show the connection between those cans of pumpkin and the blog posts. If the IRS questions you, you can show the cup of flour, vanilla flavoring and heavy cream that you did not claim as an expense because you used the remainder of the container for your own personal meals.

  90. dear liza dear liza*

    Can anyone recommend a wireless microphone for use in teaching situations? I can connect it to a projector’s audio.

    1. Construction Safety*

      I’ve used a couple of different Radio Shack mics. They were cheap & reliable. Pack extra batteries.

  91. Bbqtoner*

    My boss has asked for feedback. My only feedback for him is to have my back and assume positive intent. Any ideas how best to phrase this or should I not even go there?

    1. Bbqtoner*

      Others have given him similar feedback this year so I think he is receptive but o don’t know how to phrase.

    2. designbot*

      I think that’s GREAT feedback actually. I don’t even think the phrasing is that bad, I’d just follow up with an example like “For example, when client X said I hadn’t done the teapot handles the right way, you said some very accusatory things and it felt like you were blaming me without hearing the whole story. I wish in a situation like that you could tell the client you’d look into the situation and meet with me to hear why I made the decisions I did before responding so strongly.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed, give examples. If there have been times where he got it right, use that as an example and ask him to do more of that.

  92. Kyrian*

    All – does anyone have any advice for facing a potential brief (1-2 day) unpaid suspension from work?

    As background, the issues I have posted about before are continuing – essentially my boss refuses to approve vacation time (in an organization without a specifically defined vacation benefit for exempt professionals – vacation can be approved or denied by individual managers for any reason, and HR will only step in if it appears vacation is being denied on a discriminatory basis). The one vacation I had gotten approved for the summer was revoked at the last minute because of a small mistake (typo on an email that didn’t change the meaning of what was written, but that did look a bit sloppy).

    I’ve been working very long hours, up to 80-90 hours per week, for the past several years with very few breaks and no real vacations during that time. In the weeks since the typo incident I have made a couple more small mistakes. One was being literally one minute late to an internal meeting (not a client meeting), when other attendees were still arriving for the next several minutes before we got started. In another mistake, my boss requested some information on the spot (stopped me in the hall) about a current project and I forgot a couple details (if he’d asked for a written report, or given me a few minutes to look at my notes, I wouldn’t have omitted the info).

    My boss is now asking me daily why I “keep messing up.” I have reiterated, as cheerfully and politely as possible, that I am just a bit run-down from not getting any time off…in years…and that I’m sure if I can have a bit of time to recharge I will do better.

    My boss now says he can’t approve any paid vacation for a long time because it would be “rewarding [me for] bad behavior,” but he can give me a day or two off if I’m willing to consider it an unpaid suspension. He says this would be in lieu of putting me on a PIP for my mistakes (which he doesn’t want to do because PIPs are extremely time-consuming for managers). Also, my boss repeatedly says that I’m very valuable and critical to the organization and he doesn’t want me to leave; he is just really disappointed in my recent performance and wants to make sure I “understand the seriousness.”

    What should I do here? An unpaid suspension would definitely be a black mark on my employment, but otherwise it seems I am not going to be able to get any rest and recharge time. (And yes, I’m looking for another job, but am not having much luck so far.)

    1. Manders*

      My advice is to spend that time relaxing and job hunting as much as possible, because this work situation is clearly burning you out and messing with your sense of normal. It seems to me like your boss never plans on giving you any vacation time–no matter how hard you work, there’s always going to be a “mistake” he can use as an excuse to deny you vacation, and the more time you work without vacation the more minor slip-ups you’ll make because you’re completely fried.

      I highly doubt that future employers will know or care about an unpaid suspension, unless you’re in some very unusual field where a hiring manager at a completely different company would have access to that information.

    2. Dawn*

      Your employer sucks and you should find a new job.

      *ahem*

      VACATION IS NOT A REWARD. VACATION IS A NECESSARY THING. ANY COMPANY WHO THINKS VACATION IS A REWARD AND IS OK WITH EMPLOYEES WORKING 80-90 HOUR WEEKS IS A REALLY REALLY CRAPPY EMPLOYER.

      Your boss is AN ASS. You cannot simultaneously be “very valuable and critical” while at the same time being reprimanded for tiny mistakes. Hell, your boss is more than an ass, he’s being straight up crazypantstown about this whole thing.

      2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        Pretty much what Dawn said, because my first response was profane. That manager is gaslighting you.

      4. SeekingBetter*

        Actually, I worked for a boss at a small restaurant that did view vacation as a “reward.” I absolutely had to work the time the business opened to the time that the business closed, 7 days a week, and usually averaged 65+ hours a week. We only closed the restaurant for a week each year; therefore, my boss considered that a reward for your hard work. I’m not sure if other restaurants were the same way, but that’s been my experience.

    3. Kyrian*

      Also, as a follow-up, I have done some research and have found that in general in the workplace (at least in the US), unpaid suspensions (especially for exempt professionals) are really, really not supposed to be used as performance management tools – that they are generally consequences for extremely egregious behavior, like safety violations and major ethical breaches. I am not sure if it is illegal to impose them for small mistakes, though.

      1. MommaTRex*

        Maybe your HR dept will be willing to step in there for that, if not the vacation. I don’t think they would be happy to know that your boss is trying to use “unpaid suspension” in this fashion.

          1. Kyrian*

            I wish! We don’t accrue a bank of vacation time. It’s an “as needed” benefit at the manager’s sole discretion. So I haven’t actually “earned” any vacation I can point to.

            I suppose, though, I could make an inquiry to HR along the lines of, “For the exempt employees who don’t have a specific leave allowance, how much time does the average employee take in a year? What’s the generally acceptable range and what would almost always be considered too much?”

            1. designbot*

              WHOA. That makes the whole thing make more sense then, your whole organization has a weird vacation policy that encourages this view of it. I would definitely talk to HR about it, and maybe even float that you think your manager may be “misinterpreting” the policy.

            2. Dawn*

              “It’s an “as needed” benefit at the manager’s sole discretion. So I haven’t actually “earned” any vacation I can point to.”

              NO IT IS NOT. VACATION IS A NORMAL THING TO HAVE AS PART OF AN EMPLOYMENT PACKAGE, AND IT SHOULD BE TAKEN AS NEEDED THROUGHOUT THE YEAR WITH MINIMAL TO NO INPUT FROM YOUR MANAGER ABOUT WHEN YOU CAN TAKE IT. YOUR COMPANY IS BEING PANTS ON HEAD STUPID ABOUT THIS ENTIRE SITUATION.

              NOT NORMAL NOT NORMAL NOT NORMAL AT ALLLLLL!!!!!

              I’m yelling to emphasise that this is so, so, so not the case at… well probably most if not near all decent companies who want to make their employees happy and retain their services. This is COMPLETELY ABNORMAL and is not good business at all!

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Here’s what the Department of Labor says:

        “An employer may impose in good faith an unpaid suspension for infractions of workplace conduct rules, such as rules prohibiting sexual harassment, workplace violence or drug or alcohol use or for violations of state or Federal laws. This provision refers to serious misconduct, not performance or attendance issues. The suspension must be imposed pursuant to a written policy applicable to all employees.”

        Source: http://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/overtime/cr5.htm

        I’d talk to HR about that piece of it, but it also sounds like this aspect of things is dwarfed by the larger issues with your boss.

        1. Kyrian*

          Thank you, so helpful! I would have a hard time believing that any HR department, even the toughest one, would categorize “made a typo once,” “was one minute late to an internal meeting that didn’t start for another 10 minutes,” and “forgot a couple details during an impromptu conversation” as “serious misconduct.”

          1. KR*

            Yeah, I really think you have to go to HR on this one. There’s no point in offering time off if your boss will literally never allow you to use it.

      3. It happens*

        This situation stinks. HR is abdicating their responsibility by quoting “at manager’s sole discretion.” It is completely reasonable to ask them to do an analysis of vacation time taken by employees in your dept for comparison to the company as a whole. As everyone above has said, vacation is a part of the comp package, not a reward and your boss has been withholding your compensation (and your coworkers’) unreasonably.
        Also for consideration, does your boss take vacation and do others at the same level within the reporting structure take/grant it? In other words, is this just your boss or does it come from your boss’ boss? Because that could help explain both the policy and HR’s reticence to engage.

    4. Caroline*

      If typos were grounds for suspension, my boss would never come to work. She makes so many typos it is unusual for her to write an email WITHOUT any typos.

      This guy is absurd. Also, this is a great argument for having defined vacation benefits.

      Can you negotiate the unpaid suspension to unpaid leave? That might sounds more neutral and might be a compromise.

      1. Kyrian*

        My boss is very clear that he wants it noted in my employment file as a “suspension,” because he also plans to tell the others in our department so that he can make an example of me. (Time off as paid vacation = reward; time off as imposed unpaid suspension = disciplinary consequence.)

        So basically, if I want any time off on regular business days I have to be willing to have my pay docked, as well as be humiliated.

        1. LCL*

          Look, I don’t work with exempt people at all, but I don’t think exempt works that way. Evil HR lady has some good info on exempt, and so does this site.
          The humiliation is his for being a complete pile of you know what. Don’t be ashamed of his bad behavior. Your being suspended is a reflection of his malice, not your performance.

        2. Damn It Hardison!*

          Does anyone who reports to your manager ever get any time off? If you can’t actually get the reward it’s not actually motivating anyone. I can imagine what your co-workers would think if told that you were on unpaid suspension for an email mistake and being 1 minute late – that your boss is a gigantic jerk.

          1. Kyrian*

            Some people have gotten time off when they have made expensive reservations that are non-refundable. However, he grumbles loudly about how “lazy” they are and how “ridiculous” it is that they are taking vacation, and treats them badly (demanding even more work hours, giving very tough assignments at the last minute, etc.) for months afterwards.

            1. Observer*

              Perhaps it’s time for several of you to go to HR to point out that your boss has effectively subverted the official office policy, since vacation is basically off limits for everyone, to the point that he punishes people who do take a vacation.

        3. Natalie*

          Keep in mind that, if you are fired for all of these BS complaints, in many states you’d be able to collect unemployment. However, that might be a lot harder or drag on unnecessarily if you have a suspension in your file.

        4. Yup*

          PLEASE go to someone above your insane, dictatorial boss. Is this really how the execs want the organisation run? Someone has to care?!

    5. LCL*

      Use your unpaid suspension time to contact an employment lawyer. Go ahead and let him play the PIP game, that is more ammo for your lawsuit. When you are interviewing for other jobs, you will be asked why you left. You will tell the interviewer “I worked several years of 80-90 hours weeks without a vacation, the last vacation I requested was revoked because of a typo in an email, then boss threatened to put me on a PIP for being 1 minute late to an internal meeting.”

      2. designbot*

        I would still never get that detailed. Just saying “I had accrued several months worth of vacation over the years that my boss unreasonably prevented me from taking, and with the hours we work in this field I’m sure you understand how important the opportunity to recharge is.”

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I wouldn’t even get that detailed — and especially wouldn’t say “unreasonably” even though it’s true; at that point in a lot of interviewers’ eyes, you’re sort of trashing a former employer unnecessarily. I’d actually just say you’re excited about the new job opportunity because of X and leave out why you’re leaving. If they push to know, or if you haven’t been there long enough that you can get away with that, then maybe “The workload made it tough to get any time away from work, even a day here or there.”

          (Sorry, I know I’m popping up all over this thread today.)

    6. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Actually, now that I’ve had a moment, I would think this might fall under HR’s purview. The denials certainly seems arbitrary on their face, especially the one for “revoked for a typo”. If you have copies of e-mails where your boss mentioned that, or the suspension, I might go HR and ask for “clarification on the vacation policy”, citing the actual examples you have.

      1. Kyrian*

        Unfortunately, I already asked HR about the vacation policy and they reiterated that approvals, denials and revocations were at the manager’s sole discretion. The person I spoke with was sympathetic, and agreed the decision to revoke my vacation was frustrating and disappointing, but that the policy of our HR department is only to step in when there is a legal issue at play. I don’t have any evidence that I’m being singled out; my boss is really tough on everyone.

        1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

          Ouch.

          This whole situation is a bunch of nonsense, and your HR department is not doing their job. I’m glad you are looking. What does the manager above him say about this?

          I’d be really hesitant to accept it as an “unpaid suspension”. To me it looks like he’s setting up a case to fire you without having to actually document any of the crazy reasons behind it.

    7. Troutwaxer*

      Your boss is a monster. If you can afford it, give him two weeks notice. If you can’t then put every available minute into getting a new job.

    8. Observer*

      Start job hunting.

      Also, do you have an effective HR? If so, you may want to talk to them. Especially if you are being treated differently than other people. But, even if not, they might be helpful to you. Your boss has effectively negated the leave policy by never allowing you to take leave, and he’s nitpicking you to death.

      Can your supervisor keep you from taking sick time? If not, go see your doctor and find out if he’s willing to give a note that you need to take a few days off. It’s nuts, of course. But, it might help, either with your boss or with HR.

      Lastly, tell him your are willing to take days unpaid, but you are NOT willing to sign off on calling it a suspension. If he wants to call it a suspension, then he needs to document what you have done to merit one, based on company policy. Let’s face it. He doesn’t want to put you on a PIP because it’s time consuming and he’d need to document what’s going on.

    9. Hibiscus*

      Those are not mistakes. Your boss is an ass. He is also a manipulative and abusive ass. You need a new job.

      If you’re as good as you say, he also needs you. Not just for the work, but to be his victim.

      And also, cancelling your vacation and suspension are not appropriate for professionals, as someone said above.

      I would just inform him you are taking a week off at such a date, you will have everything finished or handed off, AND JUST GO. Don’t answer his inevitable calls. If they fire you, at this point who cares? He’s playing with you anyway. And you won’t be working this much with no reward.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      (!@#$%)
      Excuse me. I had something caught in my throat.

      Tell this guy that he has won dishonorable mention in AAM’s worst boss of the year contest.

      Take the suspension and look for a job with a REAL boss. STAT.

      My husband scratched a $300 part at work. The boss suspended him for a week. I guess to recoup that $300? Anyway, my husband used the time to job hunt and get some extra rest. He applied at four places. Two of them gave him an offer. He accepted a job at Big International Firm. I remember him commenting, “Oh people are so smart there, everyone is so smart.” (Keep in mind my husband was NOT a slacker at all.) Yeah, it’s amazing what happens when you get away from the idiot bosses.

      The suspension was a non-issue. The company never called his current employer. A while later his new boss was informed by a third party that my husband’s Old Boss was a Raging Idiot.

      Having a two day suspension on your work record is the absolute LEAST of your worries in this whole story.
      Please let us know how you are doing.

  93. Sibley*

    Just have to post – Whew! I just had an hour long meeting about what direction to take project in, and I’m satisfied. This is only relevant because I’ve had trouble sleeping for 2 nights now because it sounded like the project may be taking a course which I ethically could not have supported. And I’m the lead.

    I am SOOOO relieved. I don’t need to find a new job now. (this was very much out of character for the company)

  94. Anon for this :)*

    I just posted this on the ‘five questions’ post, but realized I’ve probably missed the boat on people commenting, so I’m re-posting here (Alison, sorry if this is against policy and feel free to delete). I’d love the AAM readership’s feedback on an issue related to non-profit conflict of interest/moonlighting.

    I do HR for a small non-profit and a couple members of our leadership are often contacted for paid speaking engagements on topics related to the work they do, but also related to their credentials on those topics in general beyond their role at our org. They’re not “officially” representing the organization when they give these speeches, but it’s obviously hard to separate in a small field. When I came on board, there was no strict policy in place about how to handle these gigs, other than that it can’t be a conflict of interest. I’m trying to get something formal in place and I’d love the readership’s sanity-check on two assumptions:

    1) It’s ok for the them to accept speaking fees, as long as there’s no conflict of interest (i.e., that organization is not a vendor, etc).
    2) I need to require them to take PTO when they’re doing that ‘work’ for other organizations.

    I’m less clear on the norms for the last one. They’re doing work that benefits the organization by raising our public profile and, usually, these aren’t full-day affairs. Are there issues with just letting things go the way they’ve always been and not asking people to take PTO? This is something I can put my foot down on if I need to, but I also don’t want to be unreasonable if I’m way off base.

    1. Emmie*

      I would be reluctant to implement # 2 when the work benefits the NPO. If these engagements are becoming too frequent, I’d consider putting a cap on the number of engagements an employee can take without using PTO.

      I would check on my state Workers Comp laws too. I wouldn’t want my org taking on liability for injuries on the way to an external speaking engagement if it’s not part of work. Admittedly, I do not know what kind of impact it would have. So, that advice would sway me heavily.

      1. Anon for this :)*

        Emmie, I think the cap may be exactly the solution I’m looking for. Thank you! It’s is threatening to get too frequent, which is the real problem (along with a more philosophical issue of whether people should be paid for other work when they’re on the clock for us, but I can let that one go if it’s not a huge red flag).

    2. Manders*

      #1 is very fair!

      For #2, I’d be cautious about accidentally discouraging people from doing these speaking gigs, since it seems like you really do want your employees to be out there boosting your org’s public profile. You don’t want an employee thinking, “Well, this is a great opportunity, but I’ve already used up my available PTO so I’ll have to decline.”

  95. Anon4today*

    I’ve been at my first full time job for over two and years, having graduated shortly before that. My title is administrator. For about a year now I’ve been working with my manager to have it reviewed along with my work description, which we’ve assessed to be at an associate level. HR finally responded and indicated my title would be ‘upgraded’ to senior administrator, which did not exist as a title in our organization. It also comes with a modest raise. I’m doing work that other departments in my division have people do at the manager level and even within my department. I think this is a financial issue and out of concern that we cannot live without an administrator, since one would not be hired if I was promoted, rather than an honest assessment of the expectations of someone in this role. My manager did not advocate for me and rather pushed for a response either way. He indicated that I should just be grateful for the salary increase and not care about the title. Should I appeal the decision?

    1. Sibley*

      Honestly, I think you should consider finding a new job. A lot of times companies are really bad about promoting/giving raises to their people. It’s short sighted, because if they don’t, the people will just leave for other companies and get better jobs/pay and then they’re stuck hiring someone new at market rate anyway.

      1. Anon4today*

        Thanks, Sibley. I’ve been looking nearly since I started though very seriously for the last head with no luck. Had an interview and the hiring manager indicated she thought I’m too qualified. I’m desperately looking.

        1. Clever Name*

          Are you looking at administrator level jobs or jobs at the level you’re actually working? You may want to aim higher. Honestly I don’t think hiring managers put too much weight in titles since they can vary so wildly.

  96. FriYAY!*

    I started a new job a month ago. I was really excited about the job because it sounded perfect for me and it has given me a foot in the door at a great organization. However, I hate it! One month in and I have a feeling of dread every morning when I get up.
    The job is completely different than how it was described to me. Imagine accepting a job as teapot sales analyst and showing up for work on your first day to find that your job is really teapot designer. I am not qualified for the job that I’m now doing.
    Secondly, this is the most unorganized office I have ever worked in. No one seems to know what is going on. I’ve been told multiple times that I’ll be trained on things that are pertinent to my position. However, even asking multiple times, I have received no training. I’m just left to figure things out on my own.
    Also, the culture is not a good fit. I’m the youngest in the office by about 20 years. Everyone else has worked here for 15 years or more. They’re a small little unit and I am the outsider. I do not fit in at all. And everyone eats at their desk every day, doesn’t take breaks, comes in early/leaves late. I’m a work to live person not a live to work person.
    I feel stuck. I left a good job because I wanted to get a foot in the door and take advantage of some of the amazing benefits my new employer offers. How long do I have to stick it out before I can start looking for something else?

    1. Hana*

      If the job is completely different than how it was described to you, you can probably start looking for something else, now.

  97. Christopher Tracy*

    I posted here maybe a month or so ago about being approached by my division’s SVP regarding an open position on another team within our division that no one internally really seemed to be interested in. Update – one of my teammates decided to move over into the role, so now they’ve moved on to external interviews to fill another slot that just opened on that team. Anyway, I told a supervisor in another division about this and the reason why I really passed on the job (I had a bad vibe about the manager), and the supervisor basically told me I dodged a bullet. Apparently the manager has a reputation throughout the company of leching on female colleagues and was even accused of sexual harassment by one former coworker (that one made it all the way up to HR years ago and he was punished for it). I knew he gave me the creeps, but I didn’t realize it was that bad. Yikes! I’m so glad I didn’t ignore my instincts for the extra cash – I probably would have ended up looking for a new job in another division.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Right?! My company is so dang conflict avoidant it’s not even funny. I joke that the only time they’d actually fire someone here is if the employee killed someone, but even then they’d be like, “Well…we didn’t actually see the murder, so maybe probation is best.” Smh.

  98. Jo*

    Anyone ever leave the sales world for something different, like admin? I’m feeling very down about my luck. I have been in sales since I finished college two years ago and desperately hate it. I’m in a job where I’m stuck on the phone for nine hours a day and micromanaged to death. I’ve had other sales jobs and just am finding its not for me. I’m working with a recruiter and hasn’t gained any traction on my resume yet. I had a meeting with a connection for a post sales support type of role (which is make an exception for) but he never showed up to our meeting and hasn’t responded to my messages. I’m just feeling so down and frustrated and need out of this ASAP for my sanity and health.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I also worked in sales straight out of college and it destroyed my mental health. Now I work in higher ed. I was able to leverage previous experience from college jobs to get me in here, and I’m so thankful.

      1. Jo*

        I have not had previous jobs in college besides retail. Do you mind elaborating more about that? And maybe what you do? I’m so lost. Ugh! I need out of this environment. I don’t even really like the people I work with. I find sales people (not all, but generally speaking) are really selfish and that’s just not who I am

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          My work-study job in college was with the admissions office. That’s where I realized how much I love higher ed. My current role is in the outreach area, working with prospective students in my area, typically ones who are from low-income backgrounds.

          You can still use skills from retail to help you get jobs! Just focus less on the sales/clothes-folding kind of duties and more on teamwork, problem-solving, etc.

    2. orchidsandtea*

      That’s what I’m doing. I revamped my resume to highlight my admin work within my sales role and past roles, and I kept only the positions that tied into office work somehow. (So I left off anything caregiving-related or retail — though to get the sales role, I actually spun the scheduling/multitasking/conflict resolution side of nannying.)

      I also kept note of all the success stories of “I got this screaming person to calm down so effectively that they invited further contact about the organization’s offerings” and “I was project manager when Murphy’s Law kicked in, but because of my organization and communication it still came in on-time and under-budget” to use in my cover letters. I described myself as a cheerful gatekeeper to my busy boss, which is true but not complete. Note that I had to dig really hard to figure out what was applicable to the jobs I want, and you might too. This took time.

      I also researched the local temp and recruiting agencies that advertised themselves as “premium” etc., because the roles they had listed pay a heck of a lot better than most of the listings on Craigslist or Indeed.

      I’m also really interested in an entry-level project management role, but those are a little harder to find.

  99. 4WordsUp*

    I’ve found a new job! I’ll be working in a medical facility as a (non-medical) staff member. My question is: do you normally refer to doctors by their first name or as Dr. LastName? Ive visited the facility a few times and I’ve heard both from various people, so I’m a little confused.

    1. Manders*

      My last boss had his own kids refer to him as “Dr. LastName” in the office. But he was also pretty nutty, so I think the best thing to do here is take your cues from the people you work with.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d err on the side of formality and call them Dr. Lastname unless/until they tell you otherwise.

    3. PackersFan*

      I work in an outpatient Primary Care Clinic as a non-medical staff member. I call the providers by whatever they introduced themselves to me as. We have providers who are Dr. Lastname and we have providers who have told me “Please call me Mary.” I also second the suggestion of going with what everyone else (in your similar role) in your office does. Different people have different preference. I know a handful of doctors who won’t respond to Dr. Lastname because, and I quote, “My mother didn’t name me doctor, she named me Paul so call me Paul.”

    4. NicoleK*

      I work in medical clinics and interact regularly with physicians. Call them Dr. LastName unless they tell you otherwise.

  100. Business Analytics MOOCs*

    Question for business analysts/data scientists: I’ve been working in the natural sciences for quite a while and one of the things I love is playing with data. I just enrolled in a Coursera course on business metrics to see if that might be up my alley at all. I think the skills that I have are easily transferable; I just need some background on the business world!

    Are online courses or certificates worth anything professionally if I do decide to take this path? It’s not terribly expensive, and there’s a 5-course specialization that has a capstone project. I’d learn a lot from it for sure, but how would it look to potential employers? FWIW, I have a master’s degree in my current field and think I could demonstrate strong data analysis skills even now.

    1. Dave*

      My guess is the capstone project, if it produces portfolio-type material, might have some value. I don’t know that such an online certification in and of itself would have much value, unless the course is accredited and known for being accredited and the instructor is actually carefully reviewing your work and providing constructive feedback.

      With that said, if you take the course and learn from it and find ways to apply it, that is material you can talk about in an interview. I think it would show initiative if you were able to tell somebody “I was interested in analytics and saw some places where it would benefit my work as a [teapot scientist], so I pursued an online certificate from Coursera. I was able to used what I learned to accomplish x, y, and z.”

      1. Business Analytics MOOCs*

        Thanks. I was thinking that about the capstone too. It may help that this is offered by Duke professors, even if it’s not accredited. Some of the courses will give me proficiency in software too, which will be good either way. So it won’t just be “Oh, you want someone with skills in mySQL? Well I know Access, so I can learn them!” but “Yup, I’ve got some experience with mySQL, and lots more experience with relational databases generally.”

        It might be worth paying for the certificates just because that unlocks the quizzes and final projects and allows you to do them. Paying for the practice more so than for credentials, I guess.

  101. OpsGal*

    To what extent are managers meant to check their employees’ work? I am an entry-level employee (under 2 years work experience) and in my 2 jobs so far, both managers rarely checked my work unless I explicitly asked them to review it. My current manager has told me that he trusts me to do my work properly (and I do) so he doesn’t feel the need to review it. I’m surprised because I was always told that EL’s work is heavily scrutinized, but that hasn’t been my experience thus far. So did I hear wrong, or is my experience out of the ordinary?

    1. Swimmergirl*

      It depends on your industry. Maybe you’re not learning and growing as much because you’re not getting enough feedback?

    2. Manders*

      This is something I also struggle with. In general, I think that it’s a sign that your manager trusts that you’re performing at a high level, but it can be nerve wracking to complete high-stakes projects without feedback from your boss.

      Can you get a regular meeting with your boss on the calendar? Even if your day-to-day work isn’t being looked at, it might be useful to have a periodic check-in so you can at least know that your boss is aware of and approves of what you’re producing.

    3. MommaTRex*

      It might depend somewhat on what work you are doing. For example, in accounting there should be more review built in to all processes, but it might taper a little bit as an employee shows good work. However, there is always a certain amount of review needed for internal controls, no matter how senior you are. So in my experience, maybe a little more review for a new person, but our review procedures are pretty standard no matter your title or length of experience.

    4. designbot*

      I have an entry-level direct report and for me it depends on the type of work. If it’s something relatively tedious but straightforward (references to all the different colors the teapots need painted, for example), I’m not going to check that she accurately transcribed every single reference, but I will take a look at the color chips and make sure they’re in line with what I was expecting to see. Basically I assess what parts of a task require special knowledge or judgement and focus on those, but don’t feel that I should essentially have to proofread every single thing.

    5. NicoleK*

      As a former manager, my motto was “trust but verify”. I trusted my employees but it’s still my duty and responsibility to review their work for accuracy, in order to provide feedback and ongoing training, and for performance reviews.

      Some managers don’t spend the time reviewing their employee’s work because 1. they don’t have time 2. they don’t have the knowledge to accurately assess the work or 3. they’re a mediocre manager

      In my current role, no one reviews my work. And that is frustrating as a new employee because I know that I’ve made mistakes, forgotten to do some tasks, and etc.

  102. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

    I have never needed the Friday thread more, but… I can’t post my question. Ugh!! Why can’t the situation I’m in be less obvious?!

    1. MommaTRex*

      Well, some situations are more common than you might think. Unless your employer wants your kidney or something… :)

  103. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    Awesome exciting interview today :-) I’ve been asked to move to the next stage which is a mock sales call. The position is primarily customer service related, but there is an aspect of selling services to clients. They say that their approach is very consulting based (not high pressure). Is there anyone out there that can give me advice on how to do a really good sales call? Is there a “best” way to get information about their needs that doesn’t come across like I’m quizzing them, when I’m really supposed to be answering their questions?

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Yes! I have a book for you! In fact, two books. Sharon Drew Morgen (sharondrewmorgen dot com) has a handful of books, but her very old book Sales on the Line was a really helpful starting place for me, and it’s about $0.01 on Amazon. Obviously it’s out of date, but it has a lot of examples of the sort of questions to ask. And it also talks about changing your point-of-view deliberately during the call: Put yourself in their shoes for a minute, then step back and observe both of you neutrally for a minute. The style of selling is incredibly genuine and focused on their needs.

      Also, The Challenger Sale by Matthew Dixon is a stellar next step, because it focuses on their needs that they don’t know about yet. Ways they’re losing money, or wasting effort, or just not getting their needs met — and how you can help with that.

  104. anonderella*

    Raise your hand if your boss reminds you of Arnold Lindenson, Paula Small’s boss on the cartoon Home Movies from back in the day.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vbH7WROu8A – if anyone needs a refresher.

    “Not a bad joke – but a bad *time* for a joke.”

    For the record, I have a wonderful boss, who is one of the few people I can talk to genuinely at my job (and he owns the company) – we’re just the same level of weird. But I can’t talk to him without hearing Mr. Lindenson.
    For example, he told me I look snappy today. So I snapped at him (with my fingers, not with yelling).

  105. Deanna*

    Any bloggers out there? I want to start a website for low- to middle-income families about the programs in our city for children (dance, athletics, art, music, science, etc.) with low rates or ones that offer scholarships. In the case of the scholarship programs, should I reach out to those companies first and ask if it’s okay to list them? They generally don’t advertise their scholarships, but they do mention it on the tuition pages of their websites.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      That sounds like a fantastic idea. I don’t think you need to ask permission to mention information that is openly listed on their website, but you can certainly let them know.

    3. CMT*

      I think that sounds like a cool idea, but also a blog probably isn’t where those families get their information. There might be better ways to do that kind of outreach.

    4. Kay*

      That’s such a wonderful idea! I’m sure the programs would be glad to have the publicity. Many such programs offer scholarships, so I don’t think it’s giving away a secret or anything like that. I would suggest contacting the programs to see if they might want to promote your blog through their social media channels as well, especially since a lot of children’s programs do some degree of cross-promoting.

  106. orchidsandtea*

    Does it look better to have one job that’s 4.5 years, or a job that’s 4 years plus a temp job that’s 6 months? What if the temp job is more relevant to the work I want to do in the future?

    I’m considering quitting to do a 6-month temp gig before my maternity leave begins. I’d like to take a year off after baby comes — and this is the US, so that’s not standard. I’m not being forced out of my current role, I’d just like to end up somewhere else longterm. Also, I don’t have many references, so a temp gig would give me a few more people who could speak well of my work, and potentially somewhere to come back to in 2018.

    Thoughts?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Eh, either is really fine. You obviously don’t job-hop, so don’t worry about it. Do whatever is best for you!

    2. CMT*

      If the temp job would give you experience you need to do something new later, it sounds to me like a good idea.

  107. Swimmergirl*

    I joined my organization as a writer and editor about three months ago. Since I was hired, I’ve been doing very little writing and editing, and now our organization is looking to hire a creative agency because we “desperately need copywriters.” Does anyone have any insights on how to handle this?

    1. fposte*

      Have you talked to your manager? “It looks like the company needs more writing, and I’d like to do more than I am currently. Is there any way I can take over some of that load?”

  108. Librarygirl*

    Does anyone have any advice/experience dealing with how to professionally push back on being increasingly asked to take on more IT related demands without the training or skills to handle them? Thing is I have about 15% of the skills needed which is 10% more than everyone else so they all think I’m awesome and can perform IT Magic but what we really need is a dedicated sys admin and better equipment. It’s increasingly taking up more and more of my time and I can’t get my other work done because of it.

    Dammit Jim! I’m a librarian, not IT!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I doubt they’ll shell out the money for a full-time position + benefits for a full-time sys admin. So you can compromise with them and ask them to compensate you better for doing at least an extra part-time position’s job on top of your own.

      1. Librarygirl*

        Oh I know they won’t hire anyone, especially as long as I can muddle my way through it.
        What I’m afraid of is my willingness to help out being read as me claiming I have ALL the skills needed when I really don’t. I just know enough to google how to fix issues or I have friends I can ask for insight. I don’t want to get fired over this but I also don’t want to be seen as not being a team player.

        I’m also being very honest with my boss about why other things aren’t getting done. As in yes you told me that report was very important and you needed it by the end of day but the wifi went down, the server crashed, someone thought they had to unplug everything from the computer to get the projector to work and the printer failed yet again but its only 5 so I’ll stay until its done never mind the fact I’ve been here since 8 am.

        Sorry for the rant.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The boss and/or board need to develop a calendarized maintenance plan for the computers.Someone needs to be assigned that work and allotted the time to actually do the work.
          Does your library belong to a library system? If yes, that system probably requires that units be replaced every few years. It sounds like the system could use some beefing up.
          When was the last time the computer system in the library was reviewed/assessed?

          Tell the boss that the problems are only going to get worse. If you are going to do all the trouble shooting then people cannot be randomly unplugging everything. There needs to be procedures in place so that your work is not doubled due to carelessness.

          This sounds like it’s a problem that should be brought before the library board. I think I would start saying that out loud to the boss. If you have not already said it, tell the boss that you do not have all the skills necessary here and at some point a problem will happen that is beyond your abilities.

    2. Anna*

      Old librarian here. They are taking advantage of you. Is there any reason that they can’t Google the solution and follow the directions themselves? (Other than the fact that it’s so much easier to have you do it.) First, stop making yourself available. If someone asks you a question in the hallway, tell them to send you a detailed email and you’ll try to squeeze in their request in a few hours. If you don’t know the answer to a question without Googling it, say, “I don’t know. Have you tried Googling it?” If they want you to call a friend, tell them the friend is out of town.

      I’m sorry, but if this is the state of the library’s technology initiative–old equipment and no tech support–then your director and library board need to get busy. The staff should be documenting these outages, as well as the number of people affected by them, and your director needs to take it to the legislators, or at least applying for grants. If your library is in a poor area, then that’s even more of a reason to get reliable equipment.

    4. DragoCucina*

      Ask to see the technology plan for the library. We’re required to have a three year filed with the state library services. Talk about time, budget, and (very important) training paid for by the library. ALA has an online Management of Technology course and the instructor is very good.

  109. Anon Today*

    I have a new coworker, “Bob,” who I am not sure how to handle. He is a few months out of college and new to the professional work world. He uses company IM to carry out conversations all day (i.e., not just a few minutes of chit chat, which is normal at our company), and he is very informal with topics and grammar/spelling. I’m almost having flashbacks to high school text messages that I sent to my friends.

    I have told him I cannot chat all day, and I’ve been ignoring some of his non-work IMs, and he seems to be catching on a little because the frequency has dropped. But some of the things he says are unprofessional and borderline alarming. As an example… he told me his wife asked if I was his “work girlfriend” and he said he told her “yes” (!?!??!?!?), to which I responded “wow I am not comfortable with that.” Less scandalous example: “I am going to work from home today and maybe take a nap later.”

    My question is… I have a few years seniority over him but I am still considered junior in the role. We are not on the same team but our teams work together frequently. What are my obligations to coach him on what is/is not an acceptable us of IM and professional work topics?

    1. Anon Today*

      I should add that next time I will shut down downright inappropriate comments way harder. I’m mainly looking for advice on things like the nap comment.

      1. ZVA*

        I would say you’re not obligated to coach him on acceptable use of IM in the workplace generally, since you’re not in a position of authority over him—but you can tell him how you want him to use it with you! Because your approach of ignoring some non-work IMs is working, I’m tempted to suggest you start ignoring all of them. If you haven’t done so already (it sounds like you may have), you might want to say something like “Bob, I prefer to use IM for work-related subjects only”—just so your needs are super clear. Then reinforce that in your responses (or lack thereof). I bet he’ll get the message eventually.

        The nap thing sounds pretty innocuous—sure, it’s one of many distracting non-work messages, but it doesn’t seem inappropriate…

        1. Ife*

          The nap comment stuck out to me because the implication was “nap during work hours.” I like your suggestion about saying I like to stick to work subjects for IM, I will probably use that.

    2. JMegan*

      I would ignore the nap comment because…who cares about his nap schedule? I don’t know what kind of a response he’s expecting, but a non-response there is probably as effective as anything else. If he asks why you didn’t answer, you can say something like “Oh, I didn’t realize you were expecting one,” and go on with what you were doing before.

      Save your energy for responding to the truly icky comments like “work girlfriend” and so on. I think you’re on the right track with that one too – this guy sounds like a jerk.

    4. NicoleK*

      You’re not his boss or his mentor. You have no obligations to coach him on professionalism in the work place. I had a coworker like that. She was immature, unprofessional, and had no filter. Initially, I gave her suggestions on professional norms in the workplace, but I stopped after realizing that she either was totally clueless or didn’t care.

  110. evilintraining*

    I’ve been waiting all week for this! :)

    Has anyone ever been involved with or taken classes at TechShop? I have an idea for a gadget, and I thought it might be a good place to start, but I’ve heard they’re really expensive. This is an item for which a prototype could probably be 3D-printed, and that’s how I located them in my city. I also read something that said a prototype could be made at home with a product called Shapelock, but I’m not sure that I could actually do a good job of that. Other than TechShop, I’m really not even sure where to start. Any advice?

    1. Manders*

      I found a couple of different companies when I googled that name, and the website I’m looking at doesn’t have clear pricing information (and is also kind of a lousy website for a company that’s supposed to be on the cutting edge of technology).

      Are there any other makerspaces in your area? Do you have a community college nearby?

      Shapelock looks similar to Worbla (usually comes in sheets) and InstaMorph (comes in pellets). Those products aren’t going to break the bank unless you’re building something really massive–if I were you, I’d just grab a packet of pellets off Amazon and start playing around with your prototype before shelling out a ton of cash for a class.

    2. Owly*

      Do you have a 3D digital model yet? You will need a high resolution .stl to get any design printed. A commercial 3D print will probably run about $50-100 per cubic centimeter of material used.

    3. DragoCucina*

      Here’s the regular library plug :-D. We do not have a 3D printer and won’t be getting one. A neighboring library has a maker space lab with a dedicated employee to assist in this type of creative process.

      1. evilintraining*

        Thanks, everyone. I haven’t checked with the library yet but will. I don’t have a 3D digital model yet; that’s part of what TechShop offers (plus other high-priced equipment) and it is essentially a maker space lab that has classes for using their toys. The price on 3D printing is pretty much what I expected; I’m going to have to comparison-shop among the options. But I know that this is a good product that would sell easily!

  111. the_scientist*

    Womp womp, my manager has announced that she is leaving next month to semi-retire. She’s been dropping hints here and there but I didn’t really think it would happen so soon! Anyway, I’m pretty rattled about it…..I am in a very fortunate position because my boss likes and trusts me, and gives me a lot of autonomy. I know she’s always got my back, and she regularly puts my name forward for recognition and development opportunities. She’s also very much about a results-based environment (i.e. measuring results rather than time spent), so she doesn’t monitor our comings and goings, which I appreciate.

    I trust our director to make a wise hiring decision in replacing her, but it’s still going to be a significant transition and there’s always some anxiety around learning to work with a new person.

  112. Anon for this one*

    One of our senior people went on a tear today about how ‘people today don’t want to work’.

    He’s notorious for sitting at his desk all day and doing nothing.

    I had to bite my tongue so hard to avoid saying something very, very ripe, considering that most people I know would absolutely kill for the advantages I happen to know were handed to him.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Yeah, that was what went through my head too…

        Would never do it, but ah, how tempting it is.

  113. Debbie Jellinsky*

    Hello!!!!
    It’s been discussed here that the University of Phoenix isn’t an ideal institution to have on your resume…what about Kaplan University? I have a friend looking into this school for nursing & while it doesn’t have the same bad rep as UofPh, it’s still a for-profit school & it has gotten some bad press for unsavory practices. I don’t want my friend to get swindled & (granted he doesn’t) don’t want him to wind up with a useless degree. Any advice would be appreciated! :)

    1. Dawn*

      NO.

      NO. NO. NO.

      NOOOOOOOO.

      Surely there’s a good nursing program at a local community college he could go to instead, ANYTHING but a for-profit!

    2. Kristen*

      No real advice, but Frontline had a good episode on recently looking at For Profit schools.

      I’d be wary of starting any program, because of future financial aid issues. Where I live, we had a major school shut down by our state because one of their programs was promising a career that wasn’t possible with the degree they were offering.

      1. Dawn*

        Yeah, and with ITT Tech shutting down and the AG going after for-profit schools I wouldn’t be surprised to see many of them either close down or go out of business/bankrupt soon.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed.

      I beg you, please assure your friend that ANY for-profit school is a bad idea. Especially for nursing, of all things!

    4. Joseph*

      No. Just no. With for-profit colleges, the *absolute* *best* you can hope for is that someone reading your resume just ignores it. More likely, they’re going to see it as a huge negative.

    6. TotesMaGoats*

      Echoing all the other comments. Does your friend live in the absolute middle of no where and there isn’t a 1)community college 2)public 4 year 3)private non-profit anywhere close 4)public non-profit online? Go to any of 1-4. Seriously. Don’t go to for profit. Just don’t. MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper elsewhere. The reputation is a whole other issue.

    7. FD*

      In my experience, the only thing Kaplan is good for is a few things where you just have to go through a program before you can take a state test.

      Need to take a real estate class to become a qualified agent? Kaplan’s classes are actually pretty good (at least in MN), and are one of only a few places where you can take the class you need.

      But honestly, that’s about it. And the reason they’re fairly good for that is that they get customers–and it is customers in this case–by having a reputation for doing the best real estate test prep.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Yeah, my company uses some of their courses for our state licensing continuing ed requirements, but getting a degree from them? Nah. I looked into it and read reviews from former and current students that talked about Kaplan U’s disorganization and horrendous financial aid practices. Frankly, I’m shocked they haven’t been shut down yet.

    8. Sophia Brooks*

      I work for a School of Nursing. Kaplan is really good at test taking, but it is cheaper to go to a community college for nursing, and they provide much more clinical education, which is what you need to get hired.

    9. HoVertical*

      Oh dear. As a Kaplan alumna myself, I can unequivocally state DO NOT GO THERE. My local campus relocated with 3 months notice (I, being somewhat salty, asked the dean directly, “And how much does this little tidbit of news increase our tuition, Jane?”), and, once there, was scraping the skin of its teeth to stay in the new location…and shut down less than three years later, despite a reorganization and a name change. Financial aid was all messed up, administrative and teaching staff began leaving in droves for better opportunities, and, to put the cherry on the sundae of dreadful, they accidentally (!) allocated funds from a field-specific grant I had been awarded to the WRONG SEMESTER OF CLASSES, resulting in a large-ish balance due. This delayed my graduation by 18 months, and it was completely and entirely their fault.

      Tl;dr – they’re bad news.

    10. DragoCucina*

      My husband is a retired CRNA. His advice these days to those interested in nursing is go to a good community college program, get a job, then finish the nursing bachelors as needed. Depending upon where friend lives the starting pay difference between the AS and BS may be non-existent.

  114. Minion*

    There was a comment here some time back about people using initials after their name such as MBA, etc. I can’t remember what the consensus was, so I’m throwing it out there again. If you earn an advanced degree should you put that after your name on your resume or in other communications, such as emails? Aside from a PhD, that is. I’d put that on there no matter what if I’d earned it.
    What if you have several different designations? Do you put them in order of importance? Leave some off?
    What if those designations don’t seem to go together, like having an MBA, CPA and PHR?
    Also, if anyone wants to take a stab at it – I really want to move out of finance and into HR. I’m considering getting the aPHR. Is that worth the money? Since it’s a new designation, there may not be a good answer, but I’d love to know what you might think.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Nooooo, do not do it, not unless it is 100% the convention in your field (as it sometimes is in, for example, health care). Otherwise looks weirdly self-important.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      If you have the CPA, skip the MBA. the only people that care will be able to find out that information from the resume you submit.

      1. Minion*

        In my state, I have to have a Master’s to get the CPA. So, if I want that, I’ll need to have some type of advanced degree. I was thinking about it, but I’m really second-guessing now because I’m just not sure accounting is where I want to stay. It’s sad, really. I’m 41 and I’m just not sure what I want to do, but at least I’m learning more and more there are definitely things I don’t want to do.

        1. Pwyll*

          If you’re doing Master’s -> CPA, and you plan to do a lot of business-related work, the MBA could be very valuable knowledge to have. I think Master Bean Counter was saying it’s not necessary to go from CPA -> MBA, which I would agree with.

          1. Master Bean Counter*

            Actually what i was trying to say is use the CPA in the signature and don’t use MBA. A high amount of education is assumed when you put the letters CPA behind your name. Saying Master Bean Counter, MBA, CPA is redundant, IMO. Leave the MBA on the resume, because it belongs on there.

    3. Pwyll*

      I agree with Alison with a heavy emphasis on checking what is normal in your office or industry and following suit (for example, lawyers in some regions use Esq. in emails and in others it would be weirdly self-important. My friend in social work has told me she is REQUIRED to include all of her degrees by her employer. So ask!)

      I frankly don’t understand the purpose of the aPHR. A certification is supposed to signify that you have reached the minimum level of knowledge in a specialized area such that a professional organization is holding you out as “competent”. By my reading, the aPHR merely certifies you as an entry-level HR person. IMO the only up-side to the aPHR is if you are currently (or want to be soon) an HR practitioner who does not have a bachelor’s degree, and wants some kind of credential to show that you are knowledgeable in HR fundamentals.

      1. Minion*

        Well, that’s an interesting take on it. I get what you’re saying.
        I have a bachelor’s degree, but it’s in accounting. While I do have quite a bit of HR knowledge, that doesn’t come across readily based on my background. I have 4 years as a Staffing Specialist within a staffing service, which is the most hands-on HR experience I have. Ever since then, I’ve been in accounting/finance type positions. During those intervening years, though, I’ve always had an interest in HR and so I’ve soaked up every bit of knowledge I could. Now I’m feeling more and more that finance isn’t really where I want to be and so I’d really like to transition into an HR role. I was thinking maybe the aPHR would help with that. I’m not sure what else to do, really.

        1. Pwyll*

          I’m not sure it helps any more than a good cover letter addressing the transferable skills. I think there’s a good opening to address the parallels, especially in payroll and benefits administration, to having a firm financial background.

        2. Natalie*

          Have you thought about a smaller company that can’t quite justify a full HR office? My company (~45 employees) houses HR within the accounting department, which I think is reasonably common since they naturally overlap at payroll.

    4. FD*

      I do see it for CPAs a lot, but that’s because CPA has licensing requirements that are useful for clients to know. MBA and the like don’t.

      1. FD*

        That wasn’t well phrased.

        What I mean is that CPAs can do things that non-CPA accountants cannot legally do (varying by state). You don’t put CPA on your resume or business card to impress people. You put it on because it shows what level of license you currently have.

        1. Joseph*

          +1
          Exactly. A few other heavily regulated industries do the same thing (e.g., professional engineers/surveyors). The main point is that you’re not including it just to show off, but because it has legal implications to what you can and cannot do.

    5. Leatherwings*

      Even as a PhD it’s seen as weirdly self important. Both my parents have PhDs and frequently joke about their younger colleagues putting it after their name. It’s not viewed positively and it’s usually taken off within a semester because they get so much crap for it.

      Don’t do it.

      1. Minion*

        Really?? I swear, I’d make my kids call me Dr. Mom. :)
        Not much danger of me earning a PhD, though, so I won’t worry about putting it after my name. Unless, of course, Google actually does qualify me as an MD….

      2. Overeducated*

        I have a PhD and am debating whether to include it in my email signature or not. My impulse is not to, but I have noticed that people higher up in my organization seem to, and I wonder if it does make people take you mote seriously here.

      3. Clever Name*

        I think it depends on industry and context. I honestly can’t remember what my professor’s email signature was like. I work in consulting, and lots of us have masters degrees and some of us have Ph.D. s Only those with Ph.D.s put it on their signature.

    6. Christopher Tracy*

      In my field, designations and advanced degrees (but more the former) are super important, so you’ll see lots of extra letters behind people’s names, especially their MBAs and JDs. I have nine industry designations/certifications so far, but luckily, some of them can be consolidated so my signature line looks like I only have six (and my letters only list five).

    7. DragoCucina*

      It depends on the field. Since many people presume librarians don’t have to have a degree I list my MLIS. I never listed my BA.

  115. TotesMaGoats*

    My work BFF and I just ran out for some retail therapy and lunch. Couldn’t find anything to buy so it’s entirely possible that between now and the end of day that we’ll either quit or have to find somewhere to hide the bodies. We have both reached apathetic stage. Kind of a “do what you want because you clearly don’t care that I’m the SME on this”. We are both looking hard for new jobs. I hate it because I know I’m not giving 100% and I want to but I’m somewhere between annoying and BEC every day.

  116. Loopy*

    I have an annual review coming up in a few months and am looking to figure out if I’m in a real bind or not.

    The situation is this: I’m new to the career and it’s not a good fit. I’ve been looking but there’s nothing much out there for jobs I think I’d enjoy/be better at so I’ve been muddling along.

    I work with someone over me (who is not involved in the review) and that person has covered up a lot of how inept I’ve been. After about a year I’d say I’m just okay but nowhere near where I’d hoped to be at this point. Or where I *should* be.

    I don’t know how to talk about my performance because as I see it I’m firmly… well… getting by (not through lack of effort). I’ve never had an annual review (past jobs were professional but temporary positions). Has anyone been in a similar position? I’m truly at a loss!

  117. Kristen*

    I finally signed up for the CPA exam!! I have my first test (BEC) scheduled for late November. I took today off to study. And now I’m on AAM. Wish me good luck, please! I think I’m going to need it.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Good luck!

      A few tips:
      1. Look at the website for another71. Great community and very supportive people.
      2. You can never over study. Plan on studying at least 20 hours a week.
      3. What works for one person on a study plan does not work for everybody. Figure out what works for you. Change methods up to find what really clicks for you.
      4. Wear nothing with pockets to the testing center. T-shirt and Yoga pants are what I recommend.

      Find a go-to place to have lunch or dinner to decompress after the test.

    3. Damn It Hardison!*

      Good luck! Not a CPA but I did a professional certification with 6 tests and I vividly remember all of the work that went into it. One thing that worked for me is to set aside study time every single day. I knew if I didn’t I wouldn’t study as much as I needed to. 1 hour a night during the week and 2 each Saturday and Sunday. I stuck to that for 2 years, and I know that it made a huge difference for me.

      Oh, and read up on test taking skills, specific to your exam if you can. I found them very helpful in terms of how I approached the exam. For the case studies part I followed the directions and advice to the letter and passed on my first try. I occasionally grade those exams now and am stunned at how few people follow the directions, which is a major reason why they don’t get a passing grade on the exam – they don’t end up answering the questions, etc.

      1. nonegiven*

        CPA exam parts:
        Auditing and Attestation (AUD)
        Business Environment and Concepts (BEC)
        Financial Accounting and Reporting (FAR)
        Regulation (REG)

  118. Dave*

    D’oh–late again today.

    I had an interview on Monday that I think went really, really well. I had to present a 20-minute case study. I was very nervous about it going in but at the end the hiring manager was glowing about it. Woohoo! They said that I should hear something from them late this week or early next, so fingers crossed.

    Still haven’t heard back from the interview I had three weeks ago, but my application is still “under review.” The system tells me that something (not visible to me) was updated on Tuesday but I don’t know what. It’s driving me crazy. I’ve been wanting to email them and ask for an updated timeline but I don’t think there’s anything to be gained, really. It’s not as though they will be like “oh, we forgot to tell you you got the job!” I’ll wait and if I don’t hear back today email them on Monday, I guess.

    I’m very hopeful about both of these positions. They’re very similar and sound good, with stable, well-established organizations. Each employs at least one person I know who has given me very favourable reviews of working there.

    Mostly though I am just TIRED OF BEING UNEMPLOYED!

    1. SeekingBetter*

      Congrats on the great interview! How long have you been unemployed for? I’ve been unemployed for nine months now and have been having some more interviews pop up recently. I’m tired of being unemployed too. Anyways, good luck to you!

      1. Dave*

        It’s been three months, now. I’ve had some freelance/consulting work here and there but I want something stable again. Good luck to you, too!

  119. Sniffles*

    How much do I need to tell an employer/how much can they ask if I need to take some sick days in advance for a surgical procedure?
    At my last job I did tell them it was for surgery and that I needed a week off after (I should have taken 2 but my assistant was going on vacation & I didn’t want to have him have to cancel) and that I couldn’t lift things for a month.
    I had to tell them it was surgery because I was taking sick days in advance of being sick and accommodations needed after the surgery but not what type of surgery.

    New job now, and a new surgery (less invasive and less recovery time but surgery nonetheless) and 2 pre-surgery appointments means I need to use sick time & schedule it in advance.
    Add to the fun that our insurance is changing in another week and my doctor is still waiting for her approval to be in-network; if she doesn’t have it the week before surgery it needs to be rescheduled.

    How do i juggle all this??/

    1. fposte*

      It depends. Are you in the U.S., and would you be eligible for FMLA? It sounds like you’re trying to keep the information as minimal as possible, but FMLA is the easiest way to get what you need in one fell swoop, and your employer may actually require it for an FMLA-qualifying absence. And I would say it’s for surgery–nothing life-threatening so no need to worry–and you expect you’ll need to be out these days for pre-surgical prep and these days for surgery and recovery. I suppose I’d say the same thing without FMLA, now that I come to think of it, but I’m assuming you have enough sick days for all the absences; otherwise that would have to be addressed too.

  120. JMegan*

    Feeling irrationally annoyed after a coworker CC’d my manager on a routine request. I want to tell her that this tactic will not make me do my job faster or better, and in fact it’s more likely to make me slow down out of sheer spite.

    I won’t, of course. But it’s tempting!

  121. cs*

    What would you do if you’re a manager and your employee told you that she a job hunting, but asks you not to tell higher ups about it yet?

    Full disclosure, I was the employee in the situation. My former manager (Jane) is lovely, but I never really trusted her boss (Fergus) for a number of reasons (the first resignation I saw involved yelling and a half hour stand-off as he and the employee did not end on good terms; he promised multiple people a raise after the probation period that never materialised; etc…). So I told Jane I was job hunting to give her a heads up, but asked her not to mention it to Fergus since I was nervous he might push me out.

    The thing is, I wanted to make it easier for Jane but wonder if I actually made it worse instead. Since she couldn’t tell Fergus I was job hunting, she couldn’t formally look for people to replace me before my official resignation. (Yes, people – they’ve since split up my position into 1 full time role and 2 part-time roles. Definitely don’t regret leaving.) Her solution was to try and arrange a (delayed) mid-year review between me and Fergus, so I could voice my frustrations and see what would be the best steps moving forward – whether it was improving my workload or me telling him I felt like I should move on if we couldn’t come to a consensus. In the end a different company offered me a big salary jump and effectively a promotion, so I had to resign without having the meeting. And putting Jane in a spot where she had no extra lead time to find my replacement anyway. I’ve been trying to analyse it wondering if I did the right thing, and what she or I could’ve done better in that situation. Should she just have told Fergus anyway? Should I have just kept my mouth shut until an official resignation?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I think it might depend on how involved Fergus is in your work and what his role is with respect to Jane: is she a department head and he’s the CEO, or are they both more middle manager types? I think in the latter situation, it could put Jane in a tough place but might matter far less if she has a lot of autonomy. Either way, I don’t think there’s a best answer, just different shades of trying to make things easier or harder.

      1. cs*

        Fergus is the right hand man of the owner, who did not get involved in the day-to-day operations much (it’s his second business/hobby, so he mostly lets Fergus have free reign), and Jane reports directly to Fergus. The company only has around 15-20 full time staff, so in theory I think Jane did have autonomy as head of (a 3 person) department, but I don’t think it worked like that in practice.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think it varies by person. It would not bother me at all. In all likelihood, Jane knew a number of things from Big Boss that she could not tell you, so when you said you were looking she decided that leveled the playing field and she was not phased by your job hunting.

  122. angry intern*

    I’m a very recent graduate working an internship at a small, cushy company. The company is small so it’s unlikely for interns to be hired full-time, this was made clear to me as early as the interview stage. I didn’t mind though, because the pay is decent and the higher-ups promised to help hook interns up with jobs after the internship. The owner of the company (“Big Boss”) even had a meeting with all of the interns on our first week, bragging about her accomplishments and extensive connections, and promising that she will serve as a reference (her reference does mean a lot).

    After being here a while it was made clear to me that the manager of this particular branch (“Little Boss”) is the person to go to for career help. We had a meeting one day, over a month ago, to discuss my job search. She asked me to tell her where I had applied, and I did. She never mentioned being familiar with any of the companies I applied; I found out afterwords that she was well-connected to a number of the companies I had applied to. I thought it was weird that she didn’t mention it, but I let it go.

    A few weeks later, I applied to a great position at company XY I was really interested in. In researching the company, I noticed that both Big Boss and Little Boss were connected to all of the top execs at XY. I asked Big Boss’ assistant if Big Boss would mind if I she could put in a good word for me. Assistant told me that Big Boss and Little Boss have great relationships with the XY execs, and that they would definitely help me out, but Big Boss was pretty busy so I should ask Little Boss, and she would be excited to hook me up with XY.

    So, I went to Little Boss about my application to XY, and she told me she would ask around. When I thanked her again a few days later, she told me she didn’t know anyone at XY but she’s still looking into it. That was weeks ago and I haven’t heard anything since.

    Has anyone else been in this situation? I feel like she lied to me. The company made a huge deal about how much they help interns, but they’re not helping me at all!

    1. CMT*

      Well the top execs at XY probably aren’t that involved in hiring for entry-level positions, so it’s possible that those contacts aren’t worth as much as you think they are. And even if your bosses do mention something to those execs, that’s about all they can really do given professional norms.

  123. ArchErin*

    I have a question about applying for a job when my background is in a different field.
    I have a degree in Architecture and worked in architecture firms before the economy tanked then had a few jobs in construction and retail, mostly doing office work. Now, I am in a temp assistant position with a law firm and have the opportunity to apply for the permanent position. My administrator is very pleased with my work and has encouraged me to apply. I’m concerned about the other attorneys not wanting to hire me because I do not have the background that other applicants to this position would have. How do I structure my resume for this and convey that I really do like the work that I am doing. I’m not tempted at this point to go running off to an architecture firm (it’s been 8 years since I worked in that field and while I am passionate about it in my personal time, I’d like to keep paying my bills.)

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I’d focus on your cover letter and emphasize what you’ve done for them and how much you like the fit. My husband’s practice has been through a lot of assisstant upheaval recently and the two most important things by far, way beyond background, are 1) can you do the work competently, and 2) do you fit in with the practice. They just had to fire someone with an apparently perfect work history because she couldn’t handle the work, and before that, lost someone who didn’t get along with one of the other assistants. Your administrator seems to be signaling that youv got both of those qualities, so I think focusing on that is the way to go. Good luck!

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Also, most attorneys really hate hiring staff, so to the extent you can, I would try and emphasize how hiring you would make their lives easier – I don’t know how long you’ve been temping there, but ideally you wouldn’t need as much training, are familiar with their client base, etc.

      1. ArchErin*

        Thank you very much for your advice. I’ve been temping with them since February – at first through an outside company then for the last 2 1/2 months as a temp with the company. It’s been a bit of a learning curve but my feeling is that I am growing through the challenge as oppose to being in over my head.

  124. Photoshop Til I Drop*

    Grumpy about being belittled today.

    Spent most of the morning working on a complicated marketing graphic (14 layers in Photoshop, and counting) and a Boomer colleague strolled past my desk and asked if I was having fun coloring.

    I’m sorry if you still consider computers “new”, dude, but what I do is not like scribbling with crayons. To heck with you.

    2. Kyrielle*

      Oh my word. So inappropriate. Not cool at all!

      Only time that phrase should apply is if you come by my desk and I’m eating lunch and coloring in my page-a-day calendar. :P

    3. FD*

      I’d be tempted to say, in the archest possible tone, “Not really, would you care to take it off my plate?”

    4. T3k*

      Sadly, it’s not just older colleagues that will do this. Last job, I primarily worked in Illustrator, designing stuff or making changes all day. The owner had hired a relative that was about my age that worked customer service. She literally said one day “Your job is easy. I’d do it I knew how.” I wanted to go “I went to school for 4 years studying this, of course I make it look easy!” And this is why so many don’t pay artists well, they think anyone can do it.

      Btw, I love your name :)

      1. Aurion*

        Pfft, did she actually say “I’d do it if I know how?” Kind of rich to say something is easy when you don’t know how to do it…

        1. T3k*

          Yep, she did. My friends were getting lots of texts of me ranting on that day. Wasn’t the first time butting heads with that coworker either, and even the owner knew she was incompetent but refused to fire her.

  125. Denise*

    So I’d like to get people’s thoughts. I am well paid but very underworked at an organization that I am actually looking to leave. But because I am so significantly underworked, I feel guilty because there are other segments of our department that are swamped while I pretty much browse the internet all day. I am technically qualified to do that work, and they will soon be short-staffed. One of the supervisors has complained about it. I have not been asked to take on those responsibilities, as they have nothing to do with my current job (and the work is much lower in salary anyway), but I am considering offering to do so.

    I am hesitant because I don’t want to be explicit with my supervisors about just how little work I have, as I fear that could actually jeopardize my position before I have a new one (why they don’t seem to know how little work I have is another issue entirely). I also don’t want that to become my full-time job, though it could potentially lead to something better.

    Should I just keep my guilt to myself and keep looking, or still offer to help out in the meantime?

    1. Denise*

      To clarify, the supervisor who complained complained of being short-staffed and thinking they will have difficulty finding someone to take an open position, not about me in particular.

    2. Manders*

      In your position, I’d offer to help out. You could say something about being able to pitch in while you’re in a slow period to explain why you have so much time on your hands. Keep looking for other work, though, and don’t say anything that would imply you’re looking to take on this work indefinitely.

      In general, I think it’s a good idea to speak up or volunteer for more work in slow periods, because once you’ve been in that rut for a while, it’s easy to start doubting your value to a company.

    3. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t do it. Especially if the tasks are of the low-level, administrative variety. Taking a step down in responsibility never leads to better opportunities.

  126. T3k*

    Oh, just a random note, but I noticed the job I quit right before May has been posted up again. Not surprising to be honest, the place is badly organized and if it’s the guy who replaced me, means he lasted about 5 months (I almost want to bet though he already left and now another is leaving). I was there for a year before I got tired of it. Too bad there’s no special way to say on my resume “I stayed there a year when all others in this position were there for 3-6 months.” *sigh*

    1. Dawn*

      No but you could absolutely spin that in an interview if the topic came up organically, such as “tell me about a rough situation at work and how you handled it” or whatever. It could definitely be a shining moment for you to talk about *how* you managed to last a year!

    2. Work Horse*

      I had a similar experience. I busted my ass for two years in an impossibly stressful job before being let go because I “wasn’t cutting it.” I knew it wasn’t a great situation and I was looking of another job, but I didn’t find another one before I was fired. I did finding another job, but it doesn’t pay as well.

      From former co-workers I learned that my former employer burned through 3 replacements in my former position in a period of 7 months. Then they figured out that the workload was excessive and reassigned parts of my former job to to several other people in the department and so the fourth replacement has been there for a while now and it seems to be working out for her.

      Now when I look for a new job, when asked about why I left my previous job I have to say that I was fired. I’m not sure what more to say except that I really did the best that I could in the situation. Sometimes I add that there were 3 replacements who all quit the position shortly after starting, but sometimes I don’t. I’m afraid that potential employers will think that I’m making excuses.

  127. Mimmy*

    Does the “hidden” job market really exist?

    I’ve heard over the years that most open jobs aren’t actually advertised, that often you find out about jobs through networking. But something tells me that this is another outdated piece of advice.

    Thoughts?

    1. JMegan*

      Oh, I have thoughts about this – so many thoughts! None of them good, though. I mean, I’m sure there are *some* jobs that aren’t advertised, but “most?” That seems really unlikely. If you are an employer, and you have a job that you need filled, wouldn’t it make more sense to advertise it so as many people hear about it as possible?

      The advice about the “hidden job market” seems to go along with the advice that if you’re a superstar, someone will create a job for you. Which again is unlikely, or at least unhelpful, because by definition 99.999% of us are *not* superstars. So “be a Superstar and network your way into the Hidden Job Market!!” seems like magical thinking, from someone for whom traditional job searches were not working for whatever reason.

      /end rant. Thanks for providing me with one of my favourite soapboxes for a minute!

    3. cs*

      Pretty sure it exists. From my experience, a lot of them are employers’ ‘wish list – but not an immediate need’. My sister wrote in to an organisation and got her marketing job this way; a former colleague was a bartender and ended up chatting to his now-boss before they set up interviews. Both weren’t advertised, but the employers kind of wanted one and were casually looking for a good fit.

      I’m also guessing a lot go employers have no desire to wade through stacks of resumes, and asking for contacts is provably easier.

    4. CanadianKat*

      If the employer doesn’t need someone urgently and doesn’t want to deal with 500 applications all coming in at the same time, they may not post. They also may not post if they have an alternative method of finding people – e.g. industry fairs, conferences, etc.

      I got hired by a two-person law firm at a new lawyers career fair. The job wasn’t posted. I came with resumes and enthusiasm. The employer didn’t get a cover letter, but instead they got a glimpse of me, which led to an interview. A couple of years later, we went to the same career fair again. You can learn a lot about a person when they’re handing you their resume and making chit-chat. We made notes of our impressions on the resumes, – saved interviewing everybody. Didn’t end up hiring anybody that year, but a year earlier, we hired a fourth lawyer out of the blue: she emailed the boss that she was willing to give him a free trial week, and he took her up. (He did pay her a fair amount at the end of the week, so no laws were broken. And he would have paid her even if he hadn’t invited her to stay.)

      1. CanadianKat*

        It may also not be posted on a job board, but just on their own website. When I moved to a new city, I looked at websites of *all* law firms in town. At least one had an opening posted on their site but not anywhere else. I guess they didn’t have too many applicants, and I got the job (which I declined, because it wasn’t a fit with what I wanted, but that’s beside the point).

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Interesting — the only time I’d post a job on our site but not anywhere else would be if I had an internal candidate I was 90% sure I was going to hire.

        2. Mimmy*

          Yeah I figured many are just on an employer’s own website, but I sometimes find that the listings are out of date. Not all of them include the posting date, but it’s pretty telling when the same listings are there weeks or even months apart.

    5. Mimmy*

      Thanks everybody – I figured that the estimates are vastly exaggerated. I still think networking is worthwhile because it’s hard to check on every single site imaginable, lol.

    6. Kay*

      I live in a small town, and a good number of jobs (and even places to live) are found through word-of-mouth here. It likely varies by field or region, but that’s been my experience.

    7. NoTurnover*

      The problem I have with this statement (I think it’s originally from What Color Is Your Parachute?) is that the two halves of the sentence don’t go together.

      The last three jobs I’ve held were all advertised. In all three cases, I found out about the job through a connection and got the job at least partially on the strength of that connection.

      So, I don’t know how many jobs are truly not advertised, but networking or having a previous connection to an organization can still be really, really valuable.

  128. Sparkly Librarian*

    I heard back about the department transfer I’d interviewed for — I didn’t get it. Nursed my bruised ego for about a day, but came around pretty quickly once I figured out who was selected. I have a lot less experience than that person, and we have no prior history, so I don’t even have any petty personal reasons to resent them. I think they were the right choice.

    The other department boss sent me a very nice email once HR broke the news officially. The decision doesn’t reflect poorly on my skills or my work, etc., and they are pleased with my interest. That was encouraging. Plus my current department boss reminded me that she was happy to have me working on what I’m working on (and I also enjoy it and would only have left for the unusual opportunity that was being offered). So I’m back to focusing on my usual location/schedule for the foreseeable future and only having to wonder about it being disrupted by adoption developments (instead of possible adoption developments, two new bosses, learning a new specification, commuting to a new location…).

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Sorry you didn’t get the transfer, but it sounds like it turned out otherwise not so bad. Good luck with adoption developments!

  129. The Office Jerk*

    I need any and all tips for developing a professional demeanor/keeping cool at work.

    I work a helpdesk, and I suck at it. I am embarassed by how badly I suck at it, which makes me suck at it more. I suck at it in all the ways you can imagine a tech support person sucking (no patience with people or technology, easily flustered, condescending, limited technical knowledge, lazy/apathetic, crummy social skills, etc). I live in constant fear that today’s the day I snap at someone and get fired. Yes, part of it is a job/skills mismatch, but I feel like my lack of professional calm/caring is going to hold me back whatever I do in my career.

    Are any of you customer service aces, but didn’t start out that way? What’s your secret? How do you learn to stop hating stupid people and start support the wonderful, professional fellow humans they actually are instead?

    1. Denise*

      I really think this is less a professional issue as much as a personal, personality issue. People who are good at customer service are good at it because of personal qualities they have and the attitude with which they approach other people. You can learn some of those attitudes, but it really sounds like customer service really is not for you.

      You stop hating people by choosing to not hate them. You are in control of the attitude you bring to your work. You are in control of how you interact with others. Perhaps look up qualities of good customer service agents, watch some video examples, and go in to work determined to act that way. In the meantime, you can also perhaps reflect on why you dislike people so much, tend to be condescending, etc. That might help you to release some of that negativity.

    2. Manders*

      Something I learned in customer service is to keep up a patter on the phone instead of letting the silence stretch. Even saying, “My computer’s running slowly today, if you’ll hold with me a moment…” is better than empty air when the person you’re supporting is coming into the conversation already confused and frustrated. Also, keep your tone pleasant and have some scripts for difficult customers; imagine your polite, professional demeanor as a smooth and impenetrable wall they’ll bounce right off of if they’re angry.

      My bigger concern is that you don’t have patience for technology. I’d really recommend getting out of tech support as soon as possible if that’s something you’re struggling with.

    3. Leatherwings*

      I’ll echo people saying this might not be the right role for you. While you’re looking and need to get through the job, I would recommend keeping a stress ball or beads or something similar at your desk to focus on while you’re getting frustrated. I don’t know about you, but I am better at being fake nice to people than I am at actually convincing myself they’re not just being stupid at the moment. So while my overall attitude towards folks might not change, I have gotten great at faking it. Taking your mind off of your frustration with a small toy might help.

      I’d also recommend you adopt the “eff you but I’ll kill you with kindness” mindset. People can really suck and it’s hard to focus on the good, but if I just acknowledge in my head that they are in fact terrible to work with, I can kill it with kindness – the nicer and more subservient you are, the more people will have a hard time continuing to suck with you.

      Good luck!

    4. animaniactoo*

      I don’t do CS, but I have and currently do some tutoring. These are the things I find help:

      1) Most of these people don’t know the information because either they haven’t been exposed to it, they don’t have a framework of reference for it, OR it has simply not been a big enough deal to find its way to their long-term memory. None of those things are their fault.

      2) My job is to get them the info (or help them sort through whatever) so that they will have it going forward, or can go back to concentrating on whatever is the core of their job which does not involve this thing. I am *supporting them* in being able to do that without expecting them to be superhuman and remember everything in the world. After all, I certainly don’t know how to do their jobs and would barely remember beyond “Wasn’t there a formula I was supposed to be doing?” if I had to attempt something related.

      3) Benefit of the doubt. Everybody has a brain cramp now and then. If I’d like to be forgiven for mine, I damn sure better be willing to forgive them for theirs. Without being asked. Everybody has a stressful day/week and gets lost in the weeds without patience to figure out said thing on their own. Maybe this is theirs.

      For some people, I would say hit up notalwaysright.com/notalwaysworking.com for a good laugh about all the ways people are insane. In your case, I would say you probably want to stay off of those or anything like them because they will only increase your cynicism and you definitively don’t need that while you’re trying to recover your goodwill towards them.

    5. ZVA*

      I’ll echo what Denise said—it sounds like this is a personality issue and not a professional one… And I say that as someone who’s struggled with some of the same things myself! Have you considered seeing a therapist? I often talk with mine about my habit of judging others—it’s something I do inwardly and often and I’d desperately like to change that, because it’s super unpleasant to walk around thinking of everyone around you as “stupid”… It poisons every aspect of your life. If you can change that core attitude, you’ll find you become kinder, warmer, more compassionate, way more pleasant to be around—and consequently better at the customer service part of your job. That’s a lifelong task that requires serious commitment—but it’s well worth the effort.

    6. Anonymous Coward*

      I hate stupid people, too. At least the ones that are rude, entitled, don’t follow instructions, and insist on being wrong frequently and loudly. And in customer service you get a lot of those. It’s the nature of the helpdesk beast. I’ve spent most of my working life in some aspect of customer service, and it really sucks sometimes. I’ve also won awards for customer service and am now in a profession with a high amount of public contact. So, off the top of my head…

      1) Do something else if you can get hired/transferred into it. If you increase your technical skills, you might get to work on those problems more rather than dealing with helpdesk calls. Or you could supervise the helpdesk (which means you get fewer calls but they’re more complicated or emotionally intense).
      2) Fake it. You have identified a lot of things customers don’t like. Consciously do the opposite wherever you can. Smile (even on the phone). Use a pleasant tone. I sound like a kindergarten teacher on my worst calls, and coworkers perk up and giggle a bit when they hear that. But the person on the other end almost never notices (and they don’t know that it’s my stupid-and-or-angry-person voice because they don’t have anything to compare it to).
      3) Slow down and ask more clarifying questions. Even if you end up diagnosing the same problem and fixing it the same way you would have anyway, you’ll lose the rushed, impatient, condescending aspect that frustrates customers. They feel like you’re listening to them when you let them talk about the problem. They feel like they’ve succeeded at communicating when you express the problem in your own words or mirror their words back at them.
      4) Make your own scripts that focus on the interaction between you and the customer, not just solving the technical problem. Use phrases like, “That must be frustrating. Let me see if I can help.”, “What have you tried already?”, “Just a moment while my computer loads this program…”, “Did that answer your question?”, “Is there anything else I can help you with?”. Practice until you can say it sincerely and without effort (including “please”, “thank you”, and “you’re welcome”.). The fluff — that stuff that so many customer service templates use to pad their emails? “Thank you for contacting us about your concern. You are a valued customer of XCorps! Please let us know if I can assist you further.” I hate it. As a customer, I mean, I find no benefit to extraneous chit-chat. I want the problem solved. But I have found that MOST people respond very well to the extra pleasantries in person or over the phone, as long as they feel like you are on their side. So I use it at work up to the point that I feel that it’s detracting from my goals (get this fixed, end the conversation and pick up the next call, calm a frustrated customer). If you’re struggling, the fluff can buy you time and improve the momentary interaction so that the customer goes away feeling like it was a positive experience.
      5) Vent outside of work, perhaps anonymously. Not always to the same person you actually like. Some people find sites like notalwaysright (dotcom) to be encouraging; some get sucked into negativity. Don’t vent about customers to customers or bosses, and minimize how much you complain to your coworkers. They will appreciate a neutral environment over one that reminds them of how much their jobs/customers also suck.

    7. Damn It Hardison!*

      I am not naturally a people person, but I have very good client skills. Try to think of it this way – the sooner you solve their problem, the faster they go away. I’m only sort of kidding about that. First thing, remember that you can’t help everyone – some people are going to be rude no matter what you do. Acknowledge that you can’t control their behavior but you can control your reaction to it. Most importantly, don’t respond in anger or frustration. Find a way to get a break from the call to cool down – I like to use something like “I’ve seen this before and it can be tricky. I’d like to check something behind the scenes/talk with my colleague who just fixed something similar yesterday. I will call you back in 5 minutes and we’ll work this out.” Then I call them back in five minutes. Usually that’s enough to snap me out of it.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      What are you doing to beef up your tech skills? I think that beefing up your tech skills will solve 75% of your problem. People who know that they know act differently than people who are uncertain.

      My concern here is that you hate stupid people AND you think you are among the stupid people. Stop hating yourself. And for gosh sake’s stop thinking you are stupid. You’re not, that is totally not true.

      One of the sure-est ways to gain back self-respect is by investing in yourself. I think that you should figure out how you will expand your tech knowledge and you will find your self-respect as you along. With that in place, it will be easier to deal with “stupid” people.

    9. Turquoise Teapot*

      Look people in the eye. Empathize with them. Be patient. Don’t take anything personally. If someone acts in a way that bothers you, look at it as symptomatic of what they’re dealing with in their own life. Imagine you’re their teacher or therapist. You’re there to help.

      And use humor. If you can make people laugh, it makes everything easier. If you can kind of befriend some of your customers, it will balance out the more stressful experiences.

    10. Wheezy Weasel*

      1. It’s OK to say ‘ I don’t know, but let me check’ vs knowing the answer. Often, I think I’m on the right track but I want to double check something to avoid wasting a caller’s time trying the wrong solution, or making too hasty of a diagnosis. As a customer, I love it when people say they don’t know vs. trying to BS an answer. And if I’m pretty technically savvy on that issue and have tried several fixes, nothing infuriates me more than calling for help and *knowing* that the rep doesn’t know the answer but they are trying to BS it. So saying ‘I need to check’ isn’t an admission of weakness, it’s acknowledging that a) it might be more complex than either the caller or rep think and b) you’re trying to be respectful of their time as well.

      2. Re: lazyness, I often say that I’m only a half second faster on Google than some of our callers but I still have great success :) If you’ve got a company knowledge base to use, spend what free or study time you have reading it and knowing how to navigate it. Find out the gaps in the KB and who in the company needs to fill them in. Point out incorrect articles to the manager, or ask to have them expanded if the use-case doesn’t really match the solution anymore. If you’re supporting a program or software suite, get in there and try to break it by doing the Top 10 things customers call about.

      Also, constantly challenge yourself when you are on a call to see if you’re asking the right questions to help the customer describe the problem vs. using the mental map in your head to ‘slot’ them into Problem A or Problem B. I like to pretend I’m a detective or medical doctor asking the weird outlying questions to rule out some obscure motive for a crime or illness. I sometimes tell people ‘This is something that I think is Problem A and it has all the signs of it, but can we check Settings X and Y to make sure we’re on the right track?’

  130. Anontoday*

    Late posting but maybe I can get some input. It’s annual evaluation time at work and my staff (four people) turned in their supervisor eval forms to my boss. Boss then incorporated two pieces of feedback, both negative. One I think is valid but the second is pretty off base. I don’t want to sound defensive to my boss or have her focus on it but I’m not really pleased plus it’s strange that boss didn’t include any positive feedback from staff, but she noted that this team was much better this year and gave me credit for that in my eval. Any advice appreciated!

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I think even not terrible bosses can struggle with remembering that positive feedback is important too – negative feedback is about fixing something that’s broken, but positive feedback helps keep people on track and is important too! I wouldn’t take that bit personally unless you’re given other cause, though, because I’ve found its sadly common.

      For the off-base feedback, maybe focus on asking for clarification, concrete examples and the issue and how to correct it? If it’s really off-base, maybe breaking it down like that will bring that to light, or else maybe it is on base, just poorly communicated?

      1. Pwyll*

        +1. I’d say something like, “I’m a bit confused about item 2, can you give me any examples of x happening? I don’t recall x, but I would like to make sure I’m addressing the situation correctly.”

        1. Anontoday*

          Thanks. My guess is she would say that it’s my staffs feedback. She added it later after our meeting one on one where we used my self evaluation as the basis of our conversation . Boss is great in many ways but she doesn’t seem to enjoy the eval process A former coworker told me that in prior years when it was not enforced, co-worker rarely received an evaluation.

  131. Jazzyisanonymous*

    So, I’m not sure what do in this situation. The other person on my team that I share job duties with us very ill. I feel terrible for her, and she’s out taking caring of her illness about a week out of each month. When she is here, she’s really not well enough to do her job.

    That leaves me scrambling to handle everything. Conversations with my boss have amounted to telling me to do as much as I can.

    I’m starting to fizzle out, and I’m trying to move to another department. I don’t know what else to say to my boss, or if this is a bad situation that can’t be fixed.

    1. Manders*

      I think it’s worth it to have at least one more conversation with your boss, where you explain how you’re currently prioritizing projects and what’s going to fall by the wayside if you don’t have any extra help. Then, do what you can reasonably get done without burning out.

      If your boss tells you everything’s a priority, kick your job search into high gear. But you may be surprised by what you’re allowed to let slide.

      1. E*

        If your boss tells you everything’s a priority, present a list of tasks and explain that you only have so much time. He/she needs to pick the top 3 and those are the only ones you will guarantee you can accomplish (if that many even) in addition to your regular full time job.

    2. ZVA*

      I would advise you to have another convo with your boss about how exactly they want you to prioritize your duties… “Do as much as you can” is pretty vague. Can you say something like “As you know, Jane has been out sick at least one week of every month, and I’ve found that I’m unable to handle both of our workloads… The situation as it stands is untenable for me. Right now, my duties consist of A, B, C, and D—which of those should I be prioritizing?”

      I don’t know if I worded that well, but the gist of it is—you simply can’t do the work of two people, and guidance from your boss on which components of that work are most important to them may give you peace of mind. That way, if some things are falling by the wayside, you’ll at least know they’re the right ones!

      Good luck…

      1. Jazzyisanonymous*

        I did something pretty similar. I sent a pretty detailed list of everything I’m doing, and my boss just said she didn’t realize I did all that.

    3. Christian Troy*

      I don’t get what is happening with your boss. Is she saying she’s aware of everything and the game plan is to just continue to try and do as much as she can? Is it possible you’re taking on more than you should? I think you need to talk to your boss again. I also could have sworn there was a letter on AAM that was very similar and I think the manager went back to the person saying they could come back part time or something, they pushed back, and then ended up retiring. I think the woman’s husband died or something and even though she was “back at work”, she was barely showing up or doing her job.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Tell your boss that you have all the sympathy in the world for your coworker’s illness.
      But sympathy is NOT going to give you enough energy/time to work like you are two people.
      Tell your boss on the weeks this person is out, you absolutely need help or you will burn out from the workload.
      If need be, say, “I don’t know how to be more clear. I am having a problem here and I need your help.”

  132. Sparkly Librarian*

    I’ve decided that I want a work uniform. There’s a combination of sleeveless dress, long-sleeved undershirt, and leggings that really works for me: comfortable, adjustable, practical (especially when I’m kneeling or crouching, picking up toys and books, shelving on the highest and lowest shelves, and so forth. I can see why librarians and elementary school teachers lean this way! I’ll be avoiding denim jumpers and reindeer sweaters out of personal preference.). Add one of several cardigans and/or lose the leggings, and it’s adaptable to all local weather. It works for a doctor’s appointment before work and dinner out after work. I’m hoping I can simplify my wardrobe and hang onto maybe one suit, some concert blacks, and party dresses for special occasions, plus a couple pair of jeans and some favorite tees. Anyone else make a big wardrobe change for work?

    1. Leatherwings*

      omg I used this exact same formula this past winter (and I only wear my large collection of cheap H&M dresses in the summer).
      I switched to skirts and dresses almost exclusively with leggings underneath and it’s great. Do it.

    2. Dankar*

      Such a good idea!

      I’ve pretty much switched to dresses and pants/blazer in summer (yay for layers). And a blouse with skirt and tights the minute fall hits. It makes getting ready so much easier, and helps me look way more put together than I really am.

    3. just another librarian*

      Yeah, I have. I am also a librarian. I do knee length dress, preferably with 3/4 length sleeves, scarf, leggings. Cardigan, if seasonally appropriate. Flats or Toms. Sandals occasionally.

      I also have some party dresses and more casual apparel for running errands or taking my kids to school. I do not ever need a suit, so I haven’t kept any and plan to buy one if I ever do, like if I’m going for a promotion.

    4. periwinkle*

      Sounds like a work edition of a capsule wardrobe? My weekend project is to go through my entire wardrobe, both work and casual stuff, and do a great Weeding Out of stuff that doesn’t fit both my body and the core style I am adopting as a work wardrobe.

      The new wardrobe is black/gray/navy dressy pants + top/sweater (preferably jewel tones or darks) + colorful scarf/wrap. It’s basically what I wear already but a couple notches closer to business than casual. I’m also ditching all the brown and other warm colors. For fall/winter I’m switching to ankle boots in my normal work building (attached to a factory) and nice flats elsewhere to replace my clunky factory-safe flats (cover the top of the foot).

      Although I could certainly get away with being on the casual side (it’s Seattle, after all), I’m working towards a role that requires a lot more stakeholder interaction and want to start looking the part. Might even… gasp… start wearing a little makeup.

      (The dress/shirt/legging combo sounds really tempting for non-work time, much of which is spent chasing the cats off the counter, off the keyboard, off the television stand, off my head…)

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        Yes, herding cats is a personal avocation as well as a professional duty! I must remind myself to restock the lint rollers at work and at home. (Packaging tape isn’t meant to be used for that!)

      2. AliceBD*

        This is basically what I wear! Including the barely wearing makeup :-)

        Black pants/skirt
        Solid top (short or long sleeve or sleeveless depending on the season) in bright colors in warm weather and jewel tones in cold weather
        Neutral lace-up shoes, rainbow colored checkerboard shoes (very appropriate for my current office — I get compliments from random people in the office every time I wear them — but probably wouldn’t wear at a new office), black ankle boots, and black ballet flats that I rotate depending on the season and the weather
        A wide collection of earrings, although due to a current medical issue I’m switching more to necklaces and bracelets for the time being
        Black or royal blue regular cardigan/drapey loose open cardigan depending on the season and what the AC is set at
        In cold weather I’ll usually wear a scarf/infinity scarf/cowl, either one I knit or a cloth one I bought depending on how cold it is

        Outside of work I wear basically the same thing, plus a few jersey maxi skirts, some almost-jeggings (which I also wear on casual Friday as I do not own jeans), and a few more casual tops. Even my workout clothes follow the same color/styling guidelines, only in tshirts and yoga pants. My work clothes range from very very low business casual to high-end business casual, depending on if I bought them recently or a while ago — older stuff being more worn, of course, but also baggier as I have redistributed some weight after being on a medication notorious for weight issues.

        I do not own any brown. I made the decision several years ago it has worked out great, as it means my black work laptop bag always looks good with my work clothes, and all of my purses do as well, and my winter coats and sweaters etc.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I recently realized that I just don’t wear skirts or dresses, so I got rid of them! It was really satisfying to cut all the dead weight from my wardrobe, and I don’t miss them one bit.

        1. C Average*

          Haha, me too! I am all dresses all the time.

          One really wonderful piece I got is an Icelandic wool poncho with both blacks and browns in it. It allows me to wear black dresses with brown shoes and vice versa without looking like I got dressed in the dark. And it’s WARM.

    6. C Average*

      Yes! I love having a work uniform. I’ve invented one for every job I’ve ever had. I’m in the process of inventing one for my newish job right now. Our building tends to have pretty wide temperature fluctuations and the dress code is a little different from the dress code at my old company, so I’m working to create a new look. Mine is actually a lot like yours, except that my overdresses have sleeves because our dress code mandates sleeves and I want things I can wear in the summer. I’ve just bought a serger, which I’ve wanted for years, so I can make my own.

    7. Lillian McGee*

      I’m pretty close to having a work uniform! Black or dark denim skinny jeans, ‘nice’ t-shirt or button-up, cardigan or sweater, and boots in the winter/fall or ‘nice’ sneakers in the spring/summer. Scarf as needed. I decided no more dresses or skirts except on special occasions and no high heels ever again. My wedding was the last time EVER.

      1. Hibiscus*

        I have a winter work wardrobe like that–black or gray skirt, black shoes, colored blouse, cardigan or large scarf worn as a wrap. Blouses are blues, white, and burgundy. Coordinating scarves are blue and white or pinks and white. The dressing part of the day should take 3 minutes.

  133. Ah non!*

    I’m at BEC mode with a more senior coworker and I’m having trouble gauging what is appropriate professional behavior in my interactions with him. I’d really, really appreciate any thoughts/reality-checking!

    The BEC is mainly due to our different work styles. For example:
    1) he does not prioritize the same way I do. If there are tasks on our plate that vary in importance and urgency, he will tell me about the trivial ones with no set deadline in detail, first. I have to prompt him for details about the task due in a few days. We end up producing a fair amount of less-than-ideal, last minute work and have gotten flak for it.
    2) he’ll often call me over (open office), ask me a question while looking at his computer, not respond to my answer, and then proceed to silently think while I continue standing. Any “anything else?” and “I can come back later if you want” is met with either silence or “just stay for a while” and then more silent thinking.
    3) he’ll ask to meet to discuss my draft section of a report. The whole meeting is a one-man stream of consciousness, as he reads it for the first time. Comments are given, revised, withdrawn, reiterated.

    I’m not sure how to handle this and it’s becoming frustrating. I have other projects I need to work on, and I’m concerned about what impression I’m giving if I just wait on him/continue to produce poor work with him. On the other hand, I’m junior to him and most of the office, so I feel like I can’t tell him directly that I’m ‘going to head back to my desk, please contact me again when you know what you want me to do’.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Ug, this kind of remings me of a guy on my team, though thankfully my guy does his work fine, he just has a lot of the personality quirks that sound similar to your second point. I find it almost intolerably rude, but try and remind myself that this isn’t about me, it’s about him, and not to take the rudeness personally. I know that doesn’t help with work stuff, but if you’re junior and don’t have the control over your workflow that it sounds like you’re relying on him for, it’s hard to do much other than suck it up and hope that it’s clear that the fallout is on him. Good luck!

    2. animaniactoo*

      You can totally say “I need to finish the Brandenburg report, so I need to get back to my desk unless there’s anything you need right now.” [silence] “Okay, I’ll be at my desk if you need me.” and head back over.

      At this point, I would generally sit down with him and say that you’d like to discuss your work processes because you think they can be adjusted to be more beneficial for both of you. Some suggestions:

      1) “I find that I rarely have any input for our initial draft discussions, so I don’t think it’s productive for us to sit until you’ve had a chance to read through and make notes on what needs to be revised. I think it would be better if I spent that time finishing other projects, and then be able to meet to go over your corrections. Can we try doing that?”

      2) “When we discuss upcoming tasks, I’d like to cover the ones that have set deadlines in the near future first to make sure that those are taken care of, and then we can cover the non-urgent ones. Maybe we could do two meetings? An urgent tasks only meeting and a no-set deadline only meeting?

      3) “When you call me over to ask me a question, I end up waiting while you think about what you’re working on. Would it be possible to use an im chat for that so that I can keep working on whatever I’m in the middle of?”

      Note, each time, you’re making a suggestion and then asking for his sign-off or approval to go ahead with that plan. On the last one though – I think you’re going to primarily need to handle it as the first case – where you tell him that you’re going back to your desk unless there’s anything else he needs. Because I suspect that he kind of “needs the company” of having you stand there to make his brain work. So he will never lose the habit of wanting your presence. But you can try to limit his reliance on it by “needing to go finish the Brandenburg report”.

      1. justsomeone*

        I’d adjust #1 to “Can we use track changes in word instead of meeting?” Let him have all the comments and input he wants, and then you can accept and reject and respond as you need to.

        This guy sounds like a frustrating, inconsiderate person to work with.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        OH God, yes! Do this. I have to have a similar conversation with someone who “outranks” me.

        1) I will no longer be doing A, B and C for you.
        2) I will do D for you but only in a pinch, as in once a great while, such as a few times per year.
        3) NO one can stand beside my desk and talk for a half hour. This includes you.
        4) You cannot throw papers onto my desk, you cannot jam them into my hand, nor can you wave them in front of my face until I cave and take them from you.
        5) You can’t talk over my boss, she is instructing me as we go along and I MUST hear her instructions.
        6) You cannot pile up your own papers all over my desk, nor can you put your papers on top of paper piles I have made for other people.
        7) I have been asking you for months/years. Now I am telling you.

  134. LikeK*

    Just venting: my husband, who’s our main breadwinner, is currently unemployed after being laid off three months ago. He’s made it to the final interview stage with three companies. It’s been anywhere from 2-4 weeks since his final interviews, and we’re still waiting to hear back from each opportunity. We’ve received some kind of definitive update from each letting us know that the process is ongoing and he’s still in the running for each position, but not having a “final” answer after so long is really hard. One company said they’d get back to us this week, and since Friday’s almost over, I’m not optimistic we’ll hear from them today (I know that this realistically means “early next week” in employer time, and that I shouldn’t panic, but it’s still hard). He’s pretty senior, so logically I know these kinds of hires take time and require multiple approvals, but emotionally, I’m starting to drive myself crazy.

    Sorry, I just need to vent. Any words support, well wishes, or commiseration are appreciated. :)

    1. Leatherwings*

      Much support to your husband. Getting to final stages with three companies is really promising, so he’ll find something soon. I know how hard it is to wait, but I hope you keep on keeping on because it’ll get better.

      1. Dawn*

        Yeah, final stages with THREE companies! That’s a feather in his cap, for sure! I hope you get great news soon- keep us updated!

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Good luck! I’ve been looking for permanent employment for a long time now, and getting so close can be tough. I’d encourage your husband to try and put these opportunities out of his mind and keep up the job search – if nothing pans out and all you’ve been doing is waiting, it can be really hard to get your search jump started.

    3. SeekingBetter*

      That’s great! If your husband wants to follow-up, unless he’s been told not to, I don’t think it would hurt to do so. Good luck!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Noooo, do not contact them today! They said they’d be in touch with people by today, which means contacting them today would be way too pushy. Wait until very late next week.

        1. LikeK*

          Thank you both for chiming in! I was thinking a late next week follow up was appropriate as well (Thursday, maybe?), but it’s nice to have that validated. Hopefully we hear sooner and the follow up is unnecessary.

    4. Construction Safety*

      Good luck.
      I was out of work for thirteen weeks at the end of last year & the beginning of this year. I got a lead on a decent job & made it past the phone interview & scheduled the in-person. Took a long time to hear after the interview because, as it turned out, I was the first to interview. I ended up getting the job. It was worth the wait.

  135. MegaMoose, Esq.*

    Hi open thread! Well, I’d been wanting a day off and got it – because I’m waiting for someone to come look at the 4×2 hole in the dining room ceiling where the drywall fell down! Ah well. Work has been weird recently. I was unofficially promoted from unofficial assistant team lead to unofficial team lead when the regular unofficial team lead was moved to unofficially lead another project (unofficial because being team lead comes with no title, extra pay, or guarantee that you’ll be lead on the next project that comes around).

    This coincided with us moving into the final phase of our project so there was actually some logistical work flow stuff to handle that I find very engaging. The problem is, we only got the first 25% of the teapots we need to log, and when we told our client we were going to run out of work if they didn’t get us the rest, we got total radio silence. So I asked my boss what to do and was told to find work to keep everyone busy, and if anyone wanted to take a couple of days off to go ahead (unpaid, natch).

    Not being a fan of sitting around pretending to work, yesterday was pretty painful but I felt obligated to come in, since I guess I’m kind of in charge? Partial ceiling collapse to the rescue! And now I wonder how long we’re going to keep billing the client because they haven’t gotten us work or told us to stop working… Abov my pay grade, for sure!

    1. SeekingBetter*

      I’m not sure why your client wouldn’t respond when you requested the rest of the teapots you would need to log. I find it unusual and I wonder if this client doesn’t realize they’re being charged more on their account by doing this. Well, I hope your place can replace or repair the ceiling asap!

  136. Dankar*

    Just venting! Our office is currently carrying out a job search for three positions, with the deadline for applications being in late August. Since the first week of this month, we’ve been inundated with call from one hopeful candidate asking:

    1) Whether she could turn in application materials after the close date (yes, for consideration if no suitable candidate is found from the timely batch)

    2) Whether she could speak with our department director regarding her application materials (no, contact HR)

    3) How much information we could give her since HR is no longer taking her calls

    Worse yet, she constantly has us forward her to HR rather than using their extension and will call back if they don’t answer. When she was eventually told to email the hiring director, she called back to say the director had told her to contact US. (We later found out that what she got was an auto-response from the director’s email stating that emergencies should contact x number while the director was out of town.)

    And just this week, she called to ask where we are in the process–reviewing materials, including a short survey sent out 3 weeks ago. Why didn’t she get that survey? Could it be because she put in her application 2 weeks ago? “Maybe.”

    She is driving me nuts! I want to say something the next time she calls, but worry that it’s not my place.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Oh Jeez. That’s really really really annoying. I would say something relatively neutral/factual but pointed
      “I’ve forwarded you to HR and had you contact the hiring director a few times now, and I want to be honest that this is far more contact than we typically have with a potential candidate, and that’s not a particularly positive thing. I’ll forward you to HR for the last time today”

      Maybe?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “You’ve contacted us a few times at this point, and we don’t normally have this type of contact with candidates at this stage. We’ll contact you when we’re ready to move forward in some way, but ask that you give us some time to get back to you rather than continuing to call.”

      1. Dankar*

        Does the fact that I’ve also applied for the job she’s interested in affect the appropriateness of any response? I like both of those scripts, but my “skin in the game” is what’s giving me pause.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Hmmm, it shouldn’t, but because of optics, yeah possibly. In that case:

          “It may take up to X weeks to get back to you, but we’re great about getting back to everyone. I know you’ve called a few times — if you give us some time to get back to you, I promise that we will.”

  137. mondegreen*

    Hi everyone! This week, I accepted an offer for a summer legal internship position that’s very much in line with my career goals. I really “clicked” with the interviewers, and a 3L who interned there last summer had a great experience. (She also gave me some valuable pre-interview tips.)

    It’s the third government/public interest job in a row on my resume, so I think I might be pigeonholing myself, but I’m fine with that :)

    1. Dankar*

      Congrats! My bf recently completed his summer internship with the state AG’s office and he loved it. Good on you for getting next summer lined up so soon!

      1. mondegreen*

        Thanks! Big firms hire in August/September, as you might know, so I was actually getting a little nervous as my private sector friends juggled half a dozen summer choices. But outside the V100 summer associate bubble, I was in the first wave of people to get offers. Reading AAM definitely helped me ask good interview questions.

        It’s good to have that job lined up so I can spend my time on academics, journal, and volunteering.

    2. Temperance*

      That sounds awesome! Just FYI, you might not be as pigeonholed as you think. ;) Near me, pharmaceutical companies tend to hire DAs/public defenders, and there are so many nonprofit folks who end up doing biglaw pro bono. Which is what I do, and what I love.

  138. Anon Accountant*

    Thank you all for recommending therapy (borrowed suggestion to others) and used it. It’s helping me survive a toxic work environment and screen out other potential employers.

    Therapy may cost you $$ but it’s not an expense. It’s an investment and you may have to swallow your pride and go to talk to someone. If someone as stubborn and hard headed as me can go and benefit you can and will also!

    It’s not a sign of weakness but a sign of strength that says “need some expert advice”. 4 sessions in and feeling awesome. Thanks AAM readers!

    1. Dawn*

      YAY! I love how you put this- “need some expert advice”- I’m going to start using that when I recommend therapy to others.

    2. C Average*

      Yay! I feel like a broken record suggesting therapy to people, but it has benefited my family so so much. I’m glad it’s helping you, too.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      One’s ability to ask the advice or help of others can be tied to quality of life. Granted you have to sort the advice and pick out the pearls. But from what I see people who reach out to others make out better in life than those who try to go it alone.

  139. Coffee Owl*

    AAM Hivemind, should I call or not, and if I do, what do I say?

    In late June, a coworker in our corporate HQ in another state was terminated for cause. His former supervisor is the controller of that area and both Controller and Controller’s Boss and I have worked together on a nearly daily basis. Former Coworker’s job duties are EXACTLY what I want for my next step in my career, so the day after we got The News, I had a conversation with Controller about his position and decided to apply for it. Both Controller and Controller’s Boss seemed really interested. It would be a huge step up for me, come with moving to a new state and a pretty big compensation jump. I want it really bad.

    Because this company moves at a pace frequently beaten by glaciers, it took 6 weeks for them to start the interview process. I had my interview August 11.

    Two weeks later I had reason to call for an unrelated topic and was able to work the conversation around to an update on the hiring process. Controller’s Boss said that I was still a prime candidate but they simply had not interviewed enough people yet to make a decision.

    That was a month ago. Should I call for an update or write this one off? And if I DO call… what do I say so that it’s not completely awkward with people that I like and would still have to work with if the answer is no?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I wouldn’t call. You seem to be within the expected glacial pace, and you’ve already been told you’re a prime candidate during one check-in. I really distrust the advice that you need to keep reminding employers you exist and are still interested. If they were impressed by you when you applied and interviewed, they won’t forget you. Good luck though!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      They know you. And it took them six weeks to interview you.

      So projecting that out, it might take them 9 or 12 weeks to get around to interview someone they don’t know and is less accessible because they do not work for the company.

      Wait. If you need to make your wait more bearable, then figure it’s time to move on just to coax yourself into looking at other things.

  140. legalchef*

    I started my new job two weeks ago and it’s indescribably better than my old job. I actually look forward to going to work, where I am appreciated and treated like a competent professional adult!

  141. ButFirstCoffee*

    Need some waiting/follow-up advice. I interviewed in-person on Monday with a business I felt was a great fit. They said I would hear back “sometime this week” and that it was between me and 1 other qualified candidate. This felt like good odds and I was happy. I sent a polite thank you email 24 hours later.

    It is now almost end of the day Friday and I’ve heard nothing. Normally I’m not “that person” who refreshes their email every hour, I usually just plow through and keep applying and try to focus on thinking about new opportunities instead.

    But this interview was out of state, so there was a lot of investment put in to drive, etc. and I do not know when I will be able to take time off again to drive that far for an interview. Is Monday okay to follow-up and ask for a new timeline? By phone or email? Do I just keep waiting? Or should I move on?

    Not knowing is driving me crazy. Appreciate any advice.

    1. Dawn*

      Let it go, go out and party tonight and forget all about it. They’ll call when they call, not a minute before.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Monday is too soon — that’s basically a couple of hours after their self-imposed deadline. If you haven’t heard by late next week — like late in the day Thursday — email them (don’t call).

    1. Mallows*

      That was pretty interesting! I could stand to be reminded of step 2. And the blog itself is relevant to my esoteric-lawsuit interests so thanks for linking.

  143. SeekingBetter*

    I’m going to go to a second and final interview next week for a company I hope to be hired by. I’m meeting with the corporate recruiter during the interview. What questions can I ask the corporate recruiter during the interview? I’ve only got a couple of questions so far, and I’m afraid to ask about benefits because I don’t want to seem like it’s all about me. Thanks!

  144. Mockingjay*

    Meeting Minutes Saga – Postscript!

    The other day, I met a colleague from Ex-ToxicJob for lunch. I inquired about Intrepid Colleague, and casually asked how he was handling meeting minutes.

    “oh, he’s not doing any. They’re not even having meetings.”

    Aaargh!

    Moving on, New Job is quite relaxed and enjoyable. I format and edit large documents while streaming music and audiobooks. Then I go home. It’s so nice.

  145. wolfzahn*

    Hi All! First time poster here.
    I’ve been at my current job for about 2.5 years. When I started, I was an office assistant in a department of 4 people and enjoyed my job. After just over a year, my manager went on mat leave (for a year) and I was asked to step in. I was a bit tentative, but they offered me more pay and it would be more experience, so I decided to try to do the job. It turned out to be an extremely stressful job that I wasn’t ready for. We went from 4 people to 3 people, and I was doing 1.5 jobs really, with little training. And I hated it. I realized I am not management material, and much prefer to be under someone.

    After about 6 months, my boss offered for me to continue the position, as they did not want the previous manager back in the position and liked what I was doing. I turned it down, because I am really not interested in the job. After the year was up, I said I would no longer be doing the position, and they should hire a more experienced manager (which is what they wanted to do in the first place). They did, but after 3 months, he was let go, and they still haven’t hired someone.

    After talking to my boss recently, he said that the new manager will not do the same things as the previous one, and that the roles have basically been shifted. So now my job has become the job I turned down in the first place. If I take on the full responsibilities of the job (basically managing other people’s jobs and their tasks), it will be way too stressful for me. On top of that I am pregnant and doing two university courses. I am nervous my health will suffer again with the worry and stress of work always on my mind, like last year.

    My question is how do I tell my boss that the full job is way too stressful? He can be hard to talk to and is awfully persuasive. I am OK with doing most aspects of the job, just not the overseeing/management part of it. Should I just stick it out until my mat leave in March?

    1. Mallows*

      Been in those shoes (both being persuaded to keep duties much longer than I originally agreed to and hating managing). I don’t think you should stick it out til March. IME, if you dislike managing, you aren’t going to be very good at it, and unfair as it may be because you said repeatedly you don’t WANT to manage, not doing it well might hurt your career. I wish so much that more career paths didn’t inevitably lead to managing someone.

  146. C Average*

    I’ve recently started a part-time (30 hours per week or so) job at a fabric store. It’s definitely not anyone’s idea of a career-path job, but it’s fun and I really love it so far.

    I have worked a lot of retail in my day (why yes, I do possess an English degree!) and I’ve encountered something at this job that I’ve never encountered in the retail world before. It’s kind of blowing my mind.

    Are you sitting down?

    The management intentionally overstaffs just a little bit so that when someone calls in sick or has some personal emergency come up, they get to stay home and no one else has to come in and cover their shift.

    When someone calls in, everyone working briefly discusses how to readjust coverage to fill the gap and to stagger lunches and breaks, and we calmly proceed with our workday. No stress, no frantic guilt-inducing phone calls to people out enjoying their days off, no demands for doctor’s notes or snarky remarks about the Monday flu. In fact, a woman who was out for a few days and was coughing noticeably when she returned got sent home with orders to rest up and get better. (And she can! Because we accrue actual sick leave and we are encouraged to use it.)

    It is amazing and I love it.

    1. Aurion*

      While that sounds fabulous, I’m also a little puzzled. Are call-outs so common that you have to have this kind of buffer built into the scheduling? For a big-box store with lots of departments and lots of traffic I can understand that call-outs might be frequent just due to sheer number of employees, but I assumed a fabric store would be a little more low-key.

      And you accrue (paid?) sick leave at a part time job? Wow!

      1. C Average*

        I don’t know how common they are normally, but in the month I’ve been there, a bug went around and took out several people, and another person’s mother suffered a stroke and had to be hospitalized, so she was out taking care of that.

        We’re a pretty large store, but not part of a big chain. It’s a local independent fabric warehouse with two locations in our metro area. Typically we have about 15 people working the different departments (cotton/quilting, fashion, notions, bridal/special occasion, home decor, and then the back office and the register), with two people per department. So when someone is out, the other person just has to hustle a bit more and/or to ask other departments for assistance, and sometimes people get shuffled to other locations.

        Most of the people on staff skew older (thirtysomething and up), and we’re all serious crafters who take the job seriously, though we don’t get paid a whole lot. We wouldn’t call out just for kicks. But most of us have kids, elderly parents, or both, and at least one person has a chronic illness that sometimes takes her out.

    2. Sansa's Lemon Cakes*

      I know this is common in some big chains like Whole Foods. I don’t know how big a company you’re working for but I think some places find that more cost effective than the management time spent filling gaps or the loss in face by having too few floor people/cashiers/important things customers notice. Also a good way to get people hours, or make people feel less guilty about using PTO, which are both pays to retain better employees (something I think a lot of places are thinking about as the economy improves).

      It’s a great system! Congrats on finding yourself in it!

    4. Sophia Brooks*

      This was pretty normal when I worked in grocery and retail in the 80’s and early 90’s. I actually lived through the change to short staffing, and moved to an office job!

  147. Sansa's Lemon Cakes*

    This is something that just happened today and is grating on me a little bit.
    I work for a small company with no real disciplinary action to speak of. We can fire people (at-will employees) and we can talk things out. Usually this is fine – I’d rather solve problems through good management than formal punishment where possible.

    A couple months ago we had to fire an employee, which ended up being a whole back and forth with our new HR person (an informal role in this company taken on by someone higher up with other responsibilities) because while she was a problem worker for awhile, we had no real documentation of it. Many things were suggested at that time – PIPs, written warnings, lots of things, but ultimately we just wrote up a record of why we were firing her and did it with nothing changing.

    I feel like in that process I got feedback from my boss and HR that how we were doing things wasn’t adequate, so I drafted a proposal for a probation period, including that it wasn’t meant to replace management discretion, should only be considered as an option for employees who had at least three sit down meetings with management prior to discuss expectations, and a few other caveats to make it clear it was for extreme problem cases and not meant to replace managing situations as they arose.

    Got an email back saying that’s not how we do things, and why was I so upset that I was suggesting we should? I responded that I was just reacting to feedback and trying to formalize a process I was told was lacking, but now I have a meeting with my boss next week to talk about my emotional reaction. Did I react emotionally? I thought I was just suggesting a way to address a problem. (Note: I’m not tied to the probation period idea. I just feel like I’m getting chastised for listening to feedback and applying it.)

    1. Newby*

      Sometimes e-mail can make it difficult to convey tone. Declarative statements read as angry so it is possible that you sounded more emotional that you are. It is also probably that you misinterpreted comments HR and your boss made and that they think the current system is fine. I don’t know what your role is, but if you are not usually involved in HR then it may be that your proposal seems like it is implying that you feel your new HR person isn’t doing an adequate job. All of this can be straightened out in your meeting with your boss. Try not to act upset in the meeting and focus on the fact that it was a simple miscommunication.

      1. Sansa's Lemon Cakes*

        It’s not out of line with my role to suggest HR policies, but I appreciate that perspective. Not wanting to stir the waters this time of year is certainly a possible motivation.

        That’s a good point about tone. I probably have a case of the tired Friday-afternoons and am overthinking it. I also just bristle at my male boss responding to professional emails (I ran it by someone before I sent it who okayed the tone but again, all subjective) by calling me emotional. That’s an ongoing frustration I may be projecting. Thanks for your perspective.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think your second to the last paragraph sums up what you need to say. Just let them know that because they said they thought they could use this, you went ahead and did it. If that is not what they want from you, you can most certainly do things differently going forward.

      Then I would keep my eye peeled for other symptoms of batty-ness from these people.

  148. chickabiddy*

    Waiting for Friday! Link below showing that references can do more than verify dates of employment (worth a read, imho).

  150. Wendy Darling*

    I know it’s best not to quit your job until you have a new job lined up, but is there a point where you decide it’s not worth it and throw in the towel with your current job?

    My job is toxic. My boss either last-minute cancels or just stands me up for more than half of our meetings. My coworkers praise me to my face and then tell my boss I’m doing a terrible job. On the rare occasion I do meet with my boss she tells me I’m not adding any value to the company and that I need to prove I’m worth my salary. I negotiated a higher salary when I accepted the job and this is held over my head regularly (she thinks I’m being paid exorbitantly; I’m being paid well below the median for my title in my region).

    Frustratingly, I’m actually quite good at what I do — my boss just has completely unreasonable expectations.

    I cry 2-3 times a week out of frustration about this damned job. My quality of life is basically zero. I’m angry all the time because I spend 8 hours a day at work feeling mistreated and powerless. I was seeing a therapist anyway about some past traumas but now all we talk about is how to survive my loathsome job.

    Does there come a point where I just say to hell with it? I can afford to be unemployed for a while and have the support of my partner, but meanwhile a parent is emailing me articles about why you should never quit your job without another lined up (easy for him to say — he last changed jobs in the 70s).

    1. Allypopx*

      It is easier to find a new job while you already have one. Are you actively job searching? Do you have any leads?

      It’s sort of a “best practices” of job hunting to stay at your current job as long as possible. That said I’ve certainly seen people in situations like yours where I couldn’t in good conscience tell them to stick it out. You won’t be presenting your best face in interviews or any other interactions with potential employers if your mental health is actively deteriorating because of your current job.

      Ultimately you have to decide what’s best for you, because you are the only one who is in a position to make that call. Understand the pros and cons of both decisions, talk them through with your partner if you’re going to be relying on them for support, but also know your own limits and take care of yourself. Good luck!!!

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I’m job-searching and have been for a little while, but it’s not going amazing. Unfortunately I haven’t been at my current job that long (six months) and I think that’s a bit of a red flag (and there’s not a job-application-appropriate way to explain that you know you’re job-hopping but your boss is mustache-twirling evil).

        I redid my resume again recently and have started getting some calls, so fingers crossed. I just got back from a vacation (the one good benefit at my horrible job is the generous paid vacation time) and am going to try to make it work for as long as I can after having that break, but I almost ragequit in the middle of a meeting before I left and I feel like if I get back to that point again I have to start considering my mental health first. It’s hard to find a job when you’re unemployed, but I’m pretty sure it’s even harder to find a job when you’re having a nervous breakdown…

    2. Dawn*

      It’s time to go. You have my permission. When you get to the point where you’re crying multiple times a week, have zero quality of life, and all you talk about with your therapist is quitting… LEAVE. You’re in a great position where you have the support of your partner, take advantage of that.

      I will say that with the caveat of maybe take a week to look at job postings in your area and see if there’s ones that you could apply to- just in case your position is one where no one is hiring in your area. But otherwise, GO! BE FREE! Spend the first week unemployed just binge watching Netflix and doing NOTHING- you seriously deserve some self-care time after putting up with a toxic job!

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Agreed with all of this. This job is killing your soul, Wendy Darling, and that’s going to make it hard for you to not only stay positive during interviews, but also ensure you won’t end up in another position that sucks because you took the first thing you could to escape.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Aww, internet hugs for you. I’m so sorry.

      My first job was like yours. It was awful and I cried regularly, both in the office and at home. As I approached the four-month mark, I got in a serious car accident and lost my vehicle. I also sustained injuries that made work even more difficult. It was just too much, and I ended up quitting once I was offered a job. I didn’t have a start date at that point, but I knew I’d be ok. It took a month or so, but I consider that time to have been “funemployment.”

      If you can be unemployed for a while, I say run for it and take some time to really focus on your job search. Just be sure that you have adequate support in case nothing works out for say, six months. Sounds like your partner is there for you in that case, which is great. And keep going to therapy! It will be SO healing once you cut the cord and run from your crappy job.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It’s time to go. When a job eats at your physical and mental well-being, then it’s over.

      Parents don’t always give good job advice AAM has covered this point many times.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My dad hasn’t job searched since the late 1970s, as mentioned, and is a known Horrible Job Advice Giver. But sometimes it’s hard to tune him out.

        I’m in the process of setting up an interview with Big Prestigious Local Company, so maybe I can live my dream of flouncing off with a better offer. I’m like 90% sure I won’t have to work out my 2 weeks’ notice in any case because they’ve insta-fired at least two people for giving notice in the 6 months I’ve been here, so eventually I will probably give notice and promptly win an unpaid 2-week vacation.

        I do need to work out a way to give notice that is not ‘Because I hate you and everything you stand for, my last day will be a week from Friday’…

  151. Mander*

    I got a new job contract! It’s only for four weeks starting Monday, but that’s better than nothing. When I worked for them last year a three week contract ended up being five months, so hopefully there will be at least a couple of extensions.

  152. Laura R.*

    I have a bit of a work dilemma . I work as a teapot technician under a teapot engineer. The engineer- let’s call her Joan- is responsible for delegating tasks to me but she is not in any supervisory role over me. I.E. she can delegate work to me but she isn’t responsible for my performance evaluations, scheduling, etc.

    The issue I am having is that she used to be a teapot technician years ago at the same place and she is constantly talking about how much faster she was able to complete tasks and how thorough she would be when completing them. For example, if I am wrapping up things at five o’clock, I hear about how she was always getting done at 3:30 when she was a technician. When she says stuff like that, she says it with a very implicit “so what is wrong with you then!” . The thing is that a lot of the tasks and how the tasks are completed have changed over time with the job so I feel like she is making a very apples to oranges comparison. Secondly, I feel that statements like that are unproductive. If she has something to say to help me be more productive then I am more than happy to try out her suggestions but she almost never makes suggestions.

    Another problem is that she gossips so harshly about other people, it makes me wonder what she is saying about me when I am not around. I am not someone that feels that they need to be liked all the time but I don’t want my professional reputation being unfairly disparaged either. She will also even publicly disagree with me about technical specifications in such a way that I will feel like “how could I have been so stupid to say that” even though when I look it up, I was actually right to begin with. Furthermore, she adds a lot of unnecessary extra steps to my job assignments that make it really difficult to manage my time, and when I start struggling; she would threaten to have me moved to a different section.

    I think I am being subtly bullied. It would be in a way so much easier if it was overt because at least I would be able to deal with it directly. I have tried addressing a few of the issues with her but it usually ends with an implicit sort of “why can’t you handle your stuff” or veiled threats to have me moved, which would be a mild setback for me career wise. I would really like advice as far as how to minimize the damage or contain it. I love the work I do but dealing with the Machiavellian politics is so exhausting. The supervisor position over me is vacant and so is the assistant director of operations position. We have a director of operations but they are obviously overwhelmed due to all the vacancy’s that I am very hesitant to bring something like this to their attention.

    1. Allypopx*

      I have a coworker who used to work in the position I now supervise, and constantly makes disparaging remarks like that about my employees (to me, their boss! not even to them!). Thing is that it’s, like yours, a vastly different position than it was five years ago with much, much more responsibility. The worst part is, from all reports he really sucked at the job when he had it.

      I’d just take it with a grain of salt and not let her get under your skin. Do your job well and consistently and your reputation will survive. Be confident in your work. I’d even throw back a subtle “wow, I wish things still operated that way now” when she talks about her past performance but I tend to be a little bit prickly, that might not actually be good advice.

      I’d put more energy into caring what your actual supervisors think. They’re going to be your references in the future, not her. Talk to them about your accomplishments, ask them if there’s areas they’d like you to focus on improving, and tie your reputation up in them, not in one negative person.

      1. Laura R.*

        The funny thing is that she had to fill in for me one day and while she was able to complete the job more quickly, there were quite a few mistakes and tasks that didn’t get done. If she had done everything the way it was supposed to be done then I am sure she would have taken as long as me. I work in an industry where people can really be harmed if corners are cut so some of my time is spent going back over items and making sure nothing is missed.
        I do need to do a better job of emotionally distancing my self from her behaviors. I like your “wow” suggestion. Being prickly is permissible in my industry at times so I will save it for a day when she is being particularly egregious.

    2. Colette*

      Some approaches you can take:
      – politely question – “why do you say that?” “What do you mean by that?” – and keep going until she quits or she is clear about her issue.
      – call her on her threats – I.e. When she threatens to have you moved, offer to go with her to the director’s office to talk about her concerns.

      Or think to yourself “that’s the least amount of power I’ve ever seen go to someone’s head” and go on with your day.

    3. catsAreCool*

      When she says how much more quickly she did it, ask for tips on how to improve. If she can’t come up with anything, maybe she’ll stop saying that.

  153. Meeeeeeeee*

    When should companies ask for recommendation letters? I wrote one for a former colleague, and they didn’t even invite her for an in person interview. Looks like it went:
    Phone interview -> Recommendation letters -> Rejection or In person interview.

    Is that common? It seems so early to ask for letters, I would think it would be more respectful to only ask for those for the finalists. Especially because they told her that she was rejected because they wanted someone with more experience with teapot design, when they could have already known before asking for recommendations that she did not have that.

      1. Meeeeeeeee*

        Thank you for validating that! I was surprised they even asked for them for the reasons you list, and especially so early. Guess if she ever needs one again I have a template ready.

  154. J*

    Somewhat happy news: the higher ed job I applied for six weeks ago finally updated their tracking system to say I am no longer a candidate for the position. I’m disappointed–the job sounded really interesting–but I had a weak cover letter. I’m just glad to have it out of the way.

    On the other hand, I have come to the conclusion that my current job is not sustainable. I just reached my 90 day mark, and while I like the people, and am interested in the work, two things are really holding me back: the commute (2 hours each way… in summer… I have no idea what winter will bring) and I’m not actually doing what they’re paying me to do.

    By that I mean, I’m showing up, I’m going through the motions of what I should be doing, but everything moves at a glacial pace at this organization. I was brought in to grow a program that no one else seems interested in supporting. I am sitting in meetings, presenting best practices in teapot making and trying to bring things in line, and people are arguing with me about it. About ridiculous things, like the thickness of the lid!

    With my former employer, I made a teapot every 4-6 weeks. It will be another 6 weeks before I ship my first teapot for this organization. (Same type of teapot.) And then, I don’t know when I’ll be able to ship the next teapot because I have to coax people into realizing it’s not too soon for another teapot.

    I’m bored. I don’t have enough to do with these long gaps between teapots. I travel four hours a day to an office to do about two hours of work a week. I feel like I got all dressed up for a night out, and I’m waiting for my date to get off the phone.

    1. Christopher Tracy*

      I love that analogy. It sucks about your job, though. Hopefully, you’ll soon find another date who’s worth your time.

  155. Penny*

    Success (or failure) stories about searching for a job out-of-state?

    I am going to start an out of state job search soon. Just looking for stories of how you all tackled it, how long I took, etc. Thanks!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      My senior year of college, I applied for a job that was out-of-state. The application process was entirely online and they were used to having non-local candidates, so they were happy to conduct interviews via the phone and Skype. It was really a smooth process.

      Unfortunately, my inability to see what the environment was like doomed me. Day 1, I realized that I wanted a different kind of office and different kinds of colleagues. If I could go back, I would have road-tripped it out there to see for myself.

      The good thing about that experience was that it got me to a geographic location I wanted to be in. I still live here, but work in a different industry. It was much easier to job-hunt around the area when I lived there!

    2. Michaela*

      I did it a few years back; I was in DC and looking for jobs in New York City. I suspect it helped that I’d gone to college there and said in my cover letter that I wanted to move back to my hometown. It took maybe …four months? I flew up for a day to do four in-person interviews (different companies), which was exhausting but worth it.

    3. CMT*

      I’ve been long-distance (out-of-state) job searching for just about two years now and I have had exactly one interview in that time. And I’m looking in multiple geographic areas, not just one. So it takes a very long time. I’ve applied for some jobs at government/non-profit type places that I know won’t pay relocation expenses and in those cover letters I’ve mentioned that I’m willing to pay for interviews, moving, etc. (I really am willing to pay for those and wouldn’t then turn around and try to ask for that if I got an offer.) I’ve also mentioned firm moving plans (which isn’t exactly true) in my cover letters. I don’t know. If anybody else has some great advice, I’d love to hear it.

    4. Hiraeth*

      I spent nearly a year applying for jobs out of state without any success. I finally decided that if I wanted a new job in a new place, I had to make it happen. I already had a place in mind, so I looked for housing that I could afford, quit my job, packed and moved my things, stayed with some friends fifty miles outside of my destination for a week, and then moved in at the beginning of this year. I am still looking for a job that excites me and is also full-time, but overall, I am happy with my decision.

    5. AliceBD*

      Following, because I am doing that now! Just started a couple of weeks ago, so too soon to have heard back from places really. Plus I’m not finding tons and tons of jobs I’m interested in doing that pay what I want to be paid.

      I would strongly prefer to have a job before I move, but I can move on short notice and can drive myself to interviews in the new city. I want to move because I will be closer to family, which I mention in my cover letters. My aunt lives in the city and she would be perfectly happy to have me stay with her for a month or two while I start a new job and find a place to live; I lived with her during a summer internship in college. (The place I did the internship is not hiring for roles I’m qualified for, unfortunately.)

  156. Always the runner up*

    How do you close and get a job offer?

    I have been averaging 3 in person interviews a month for 3 years. I initially wrote a lot here, but it felt like venting. The TL;DR is: I’m employed full time but making very little money. I am very qualified and frequently make it through multiple rounds of interviews. I use all of my PTO and have to take every night shift to make time for interviews, so I am functionally working 20/7. My references are excellent. I invest so much time and money I don’t have into the process, but never get an offer. It feels like I’m always number 2. I am in a legitimate financial emergency state and desperately need a job that pays a living wage, even if I would never ever say that to a potential employer. I don’t want to be the lady with a full time job and 2 masters degrees in line at the food bank anymore. I guess what I’m wondering is, what is the magic ingredient to make them choose you? How do you close? What takes you from “Well, she seems lovely, bright, and qualified, someone will pick her up” to “I pick her.”

    1. Leatherwings*

      I would find someone who hasn’t helped you practice interviews before, make a list of every interview question you can remember being asked, and practice over and over again with that person.

      Getting to the final stages and never getting the job is so frustrating, but the best thing you can do is nail the later stage interviews.

      1. H.C.*

        This, and possibly someone (may or may not be the same as your interview practice partner) to review your follow-up correspondences too.

        Best of luck.

      2. Always the runner up*

        Thanks for your comment! I practice for hours for every interview and memorize as much of the website as I can. I once had a nightmare situation where I was berated by an HR rep during a phone screener for not knowing something about the company, as I slowly realized the person berating me did not know the difference between an internet website and her intranet portal. I now I try to literally read every link that comes up on google and lexis nexis about the company. I generally will prepare and practice for about 5 hours for every hour of interview. At this point, I’m running out of friends and colleagues to practice and network with. I check in with Career Services from my alma mater quarterly. In year one of my search, I attended every workshop they offered. I once found myself in the horrifying position of thinking I was invited as a job seeker to an event where I was considered “the mentor.” I stopped going after that. A few months ago, I spent $300 I absolutely do not have to work with a job coach with very high rankings on The Muse. Her exact words were “You should be coaching me! Just keep your confidence up.” I am trying to stay positive, but it is very hard to keep your confidence up when you are already only eating every other day. I have to close on a new job. It is at this point a genuine life or death crisis. My only relief is that I do not have children. I have so much sympathy for people in this position with dependents. The good news about my situation is that if I am able to find a job that pays a living wage soon, I can recover financially within one or two years because I am already accustomed to not having enough money for anything than the most basic essentials for one person. I just need someone to look at me and finally think “Yup, she deserves food, shelter, and medicine in exchange for her labor.”

        1. Caledonia*

          I was unemployed and very close to the breadline/poverty for 6 months until I sold my property and got a job elsewhere – my old area is currently experiencing a severe economic downturn (oil and gas). I came close many times, I think I ended up having around 17-19 interviews in a 6 month period.

          It’s possible that you are doing way too much prep work and coming across stilted, rather than natural and/or your interviewers can sense how desperate you are – when you are in such financial hardship, you’re always wondering where your next meal is coming from, what bill you’ll have to not pay, if you can actually afford to attend the interview at all etc. As soon as I sold my property, I had freedom again and after that but before the money came through, I landed a job. It may or may not be a coincidence but it’s perhaps something to think about. Also, financial difficulties impact on your mental health, so maybe look into therapy or doing some online things to help you with that – even blogging or coming on here helps, and helps to get rid of the frustration and negative feelings.

          I wish you all the best – it’s an incredibly difficult situation and although I’ve learned alot from my period of poverty, it’s not something I’d wish on anyone or want to experience ever again.

          1. Always the runner up*

            Thank you for sharing your story. I know I’m not the only one who is living in senseless poverty in the United States. I only use the food bank when I genuinely believe I will die if I do not eat something, but standing in that line 2 hours, 3 hours, just to get about $30 worth of groceries shows you the real America. As for preparing, I don’t know what else to do. I don’t have any other options, so I try working harder. Trying to finally be perfect enough for someone to decide I deserve a chance. It’s really hard to parse, but it’s definitely not being too stilted. I almost always have everyone in the room smiling. It sounds narcissistic, but everyone who meets me tends to think “What a lovely, kind, funny, competent, polished woman.” Only, they don’t know that I am wearing the suit I received as a high school graduation present and practiced that joke 30 different ways in the mirror. My current title sounds very impressive, but my boss is a tyrant. Ever since my partner left me last year and my financial struggles became a genuine poverty crisis, his behavior has escalated. He knows he can make me work 12 hour days for 14 days straight and refuse to authorize overtime because I need the job. Lately, he knows he can sexually harass me and make me feel very dirty and unsafe because I need the job. I work in higher education, so the bar of what constitutes actionable sexual harassment is very high. HR made it very clear that he would have to full on rape me on camera while wearing a school sweatshirt for them to take my side. He makes sure to stay on the side of “terrorizing a vulnerable woman.” It’s not great.

            I am forced to lie in every interview because I know if I do not sound 100% positive and perfect in every way they will not pick me. I have to pretend that I ate something that day. I have to pretend like I wasn’t white knuckling my chair as I smile and nod while my boss talks about how Trump is finally going to kill those gay muslims and abstractly commenting on my body that morning. I do everything I can to be perfect so they will pick me and I can be okay. I can do the rest. I just need someone to pick me.

            1. Reb*

              You don’t have to sound 100% positive to get a job. You have to sound realistic and genuine. If you’re actively lying to make yourself sound 100% positive, you may sound naive and fake instead.

              Try an experiment: in the next couple of interviews, answer every question honestly instead of guessing the “right” answer. See what happens.

              An honest answer to “why do you want to leave?” that doesn’t throw your boss under the bus would be “There’s a lack of opportunities to advance so I’ve gone as high as I can there.” Though your boss deserves to be thrown under a bus!

  157. Second Guessing*

    I’ve been asked to come to an interview! I’m very excited, but I need wardrobe advice! I am a mid-level graphic designer, interviewing for a print shop position in a university IT department. Would slacks, a crisp blouse, and a black fine-knit cardigan be too informal for the interview? Normally I wear a blazer to interviews, but my only blazer is damaged. I can fix it, and I certainly would if I was interviewing for a design position in a corporate environment, but to be honest, I don’t like it and I feel like a banker in it. There is no opportunity for me to buy another one.

    I’ve always read that interviewees should dress according to the office’s dress code, or preferably one level nicer. I suspect that the dress code in this case is business casual, or possibly just smart casual. Should I just email my interviewer and ask about the dress code in the IT department? She seemed very approachable on the phone, and told me to email if I had any questions or if I needed to reschedule.

    Any insight would be appreciated!

      1. Second Guessing*

        Thanks! I decided in the end to ask, since I needed to follow up to the interviewer / contact person’s last email anyway. We’ll see what the reply is. I think I’ll fix the blazer anyway, just in case, but I don’t think I’ll be wearing it.

  158. Lady Dedlock*

    I’m looking for online survey software recommendations. A colleague has asked me to find an online form maker that we can use to administer a self-assessment rubric. It has to:

    1. allow multiple individuals to collaborate on one form response—so it would require some sort of login or unique user ID, so it can be completed over multiple sessions by multiple people;
    2. allow respondents to download a copy of the form after they complete it;
    3. allow the survey administrator to analyze the data, but only for completed forms.

    People in my office think of me as the go-to tech person, but I really know nothing about survey software, so any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Hmm… my colleague seemed like she didn’t want to use Qualtrics for some reason, but that sounds like it’s worth looking into.

  159. Elizabeth*

    I’ve been having a lot of anxiety about my job for several months. Earlier this week, I applied for a position with one of my vendors. I submitted everything over the lunch hour after a particularly trying morning, and that afternoon I felt the greatest sense of peace. I no longer feel like I don’t have options (I’m highly paid for the small community I live in, and there is no where else in the area I could use my skills if I left here), because there are work-from-home jobs using my skills. I may not even get an interview, but that’s fine.

    The really interesting thing is that the sense of peace I have extended to being reinvested in my current job. We’ll see if that lasts!

  160. Jennifer Needs a Thneed*

    I really like this place. Good info from Alison, good commentariat, good jokes, good pragmatism, good cynicism, and excellent snacks.

    I’ve been commenting a little but never introduced myself, and I assume that at some level folks do that around here. (Really, I need to figure out a useful username for myself to use around here. There’s just so many Jennifers in the world these days. Should I use my Ravelry name for everything? Today I’ve partly incorporated it into my actual name, to get a feel for things.)

    Anyway, I’ve been working contracts for way more years than I like, and this is one of the first times I’ve gotten a gig lined up before the current one ends.

    So what’s my work-related comment? Just that reading this blog helped me be more confident in negotiating my starting date for the next gig. Yesterday I was texting with the recruiter, who wants me to start on 10/1 (which he had probably not realized is a Saturday). But I’m still working at CurrentJob until the 4th, so I suggested 10/11 for a start date. Recruiter tried to scare me off with “They might push back” which just got my back up. They know I’m still finishing out my current contract. I have always been open about that.

    So I replied thusly: “We never talked specific dates, and I have responsibilities where I am. I am respecting my current client and I’m sure they expect me to treat them the same when the time comes.” His response to that was “Sure thing.” I was walking on air.

    (And yes, I hope this doesn’t backfire on me, and yes, I know that if they’re unreasonable then I have dodged a bullet. But I really want to have finished the job-hunt. It’s the 4th quarter on 10/1, and everything slows down in my market as EOY approaches.)

    1. neverjaunty*

      Congrats! And yes, any decent employer will respect that decision – it is a good sign that you will treat them fairly as well.

  161. Jersey's Mom*

    Some of my co-workers are amazing and compassionate human beings. (tl;dr)

    While driving to the park-and-ride this morning, a minivan pulled out from behind a huge utility truck in order to pass the truck (in a no passing zone). I was driving toward them. The truck locked his brakes, I locked my brakes and went off the road, and the minivan sped up to pass between us. When we all got out of our vehicles, confirmed that we and our vehicles were uninjured, the minivan guy started in on me about how I was going too fast. I totally unloaded on him (adrenaline high, I was a complete potty mouth).

    Drove (a bit shaky) to the park-and-ride to commute with two co-workers to a company all-hands meeting. I was white and shaking when I got in, with a few reaction tears (from rage and relief). I briefly explained what happened. They handed me some tissues and let me be, until I was ready to join the conversation.

    Get to the all-hands meeting. Agenda item #2 is a video about driving safety, featuring a double fatality car accident. Fortunately, I was planning on leaving the room for a brief conference call and went into a nearby empty conference room. My two co-workers noticed me leave, and after five minutes went to look for me, thinking I may have had a bad reaction to the video. They didn’t find me, so grabbed someone who is a good friend to me and briefly told her what happened and sent her to look for me.

    She found me as I left the conference room, asked if I was ok, said she knew about the near-miss, gave me a quick hug and chatted to me about little nothings to make sure I was ok before going back into the all-hands meeting.

    Man, it is amazing to have fantastic co-workers like that. I later found out that the drive safe video was pretty graphic, so I’m sure I would have had a bad reaction had I remained in the room.

  162. Dee*

    I just wanted to voice some frustration – i’ve been out of work for 2 months (a long term contract ended, and the work i lined up fell through just as i was about to start). It’s really frustrating. I recently applied and got an interview for an extremely close match on what i do. I was not chosen for a second interview (only 1 other applicant was) but the manager said “You’re still shortlisted” – idk what that means – and then she proceeded to ask my salary expectations. Why is she bothering to ask if they’re not progressing with my application and why would she think i’d say anything if that’s the case? I was devastated and trying to hide it on the phone so i mumbled about needing to do market research. But i guess i’m basically second choice i think if first choice falls through. And it’s a really lousy, frustrating feeling and place to be. Thanks for listening everyone.

    1. am.persand*

      I’m sorry, that stinks. Unemployment is the pits. I once accepted a part-time job at an organization I had been trying to get a full-time job with for months and right after I accepted the offer, another person (unaware of the part-time job), contacted me about a full-time position. I said I was interested but the interview offer was pulled several days later. I cried and walked around almost zombie-like for two days.

  163. Hiraeth*

    Posting late today. Have any of you had to juggle looking for work and looking for housing at the same time? Share your stories here! (Consider this an AAM open thread challenge!)

    1. Caledonia*

      yes, I commented above about it and it’s shit, basically. I’m on my own, which doesn’t help and I don’t drive, I need to find somewhere to live before October 10th and it’s not going well at all. I did this last year and I’d really like to have a “buffer” so I don’t have to deal with moving stress in the same week/day as starting a new job in a new city, even though it’s looking like I’ll be commuting into my job because moving and starting a new job are 2 of the most stressful things you do in life and I’m about to go crackers.

    2. Joanna*

      Yes and it’s driving me nuts. I feel like I spend half my life scrolling through ether job boards or real estate websites trying to differentiate and chose which similar seeming and equally out of reach option to pursue further.

  164. Regular commenter going nameless*

    I’m starting to job hunt and I’m dreading the “why did you leave your last job” question. I’m currently working for a very large company who tries to publically project an image of being ethical and values driven. The reality in my department is a really rotten culture. I’ve seen a too many examples of bullying, “motivation” though manipulation and blackmail, favouritism by management and general failure to treat people with empathy and respect. Is there an appropriate way to express this or do I have to find another reason to claim like lack of opportunity for growth?

  165. NewGirl*

    I’ve been at my new job for six months and in that time have learned enough that I’m sometimes asked by my colleagues to help out with questions about how to complete certain processes and so forth. During my training I made a step by step guide to doing a lot of the activities required in the job and showed it to my boss (Karen) and my boss’s boss when I was in a meeting with them. The meeting was a mandatory one for all new hires to talk about what’s working and what isn’t. Both seemed enthusiastic about the guide and I mentioned then that I was sharing it with my other newer colleagues. So they knew about that.

    Recently I’ve heard that my colleagues, in meetings with Karen and the boss’s boss have raved about how helpful I’ve been and how they love the step by step guide. During a one on one training session with a colleague (Jane), Jane told Karen how helpful I’ve been and Karen was overheard by the other person in the room saying to Jane “You really should direct any questions to me or to trainers. Some people here think they know more than they do.” It was clear Karen was referencing me there.

    I wonder about this because I never give answers unless I know for certain what they are. I often say I don’t know ask someone else if I in fact don’t know. Also my boss is very irritable and tends to treat you like you’re stupid if you ask a question so people don’t like to do it unless they have to. Not really a question here, just venting. My colleagues help me out often too. It’s a collaborative effort because the people Karen wants us to get answers from aren’t often available quickly. So as we’ve learned things, we’ve helped each other. It’s sad to me that they want to shut that kind of teamwork down.

  166. Temporarily Anonymous*

    I occasionally post under another name but I’m going anonymous for this particular question.

    I’ve been thinking about career advancement recently. The problem is that my current employer has very few paths for advancement other than becoming a supervisor or low-level manager, which I absolutely do NOT want. In my current position, my duties are a mix of clerical and customer service in a legal field (but not a lawyer’s office). I have some specialised duties that I quite enjoy: liaising with outside agencies to book appointments, handling special requests for documents or information which sometimes requires research on my part, and building effective relationships with internal and outside agency cohorts in order to streamline and facilitate our process. These duties are not a common part of this job in my field. (I can’t be too specific about my job to avoid outing myself so hopefully this gives the gist)
    I have looked into different positions related to my job description and I’m thinking that (eventually) pursuing a job as an executive assistant may be a career path I’d enjoy. Does anyone have advice on what kind of professional development I should seek if I want to become an EA? Other advice? I’ve had some higher education but don’t hold a degree. I also have close to a decade of experience in my current field.

  167. gnarlington*

    I emailed Alison, but I’m so mortified I could really use the advice. I just got out of the worst negotiation of my life. While negotiating a promotion, I asked for a raise of $X, hoping to get $X-2k or so. I researched, and found that this was fair market rate even though I’m quite young. When I said the number, he said, “Hm. I’m doing the math. OK, I start negotiations with managers at $X-4x, and was thinking $X-9k.” (Which is about a $4-5k bump.) I froze. I was so sure that the managers made so much more than that. I freaked out and just said “If that’s what you were thinking, let’s go with that!”

    I botched it. He said some more stuff like, “I know you did your research, but when looking at positions consider the compensation package too” and “You truly deserve this raise,” etc. But it didn’t stop me from having a full blown anxiety attack for a full hour afterward. I feel like I messed up so badly. I way overvalued myself. And then I just accepted the first thing he said. I took advice of family and colleagues to a fault. And now I feel like my boss is going to think I’m irrational and kind of dumb.

    How can I repair this? Should I just never bring it up? Do I have a second conversation? I have so much anxiety over this.

    1. chickabiddy*

      First, a less-than-razor-sharp negotiation is not something to be mortified or ashamed about, and likely does not need a repair. It will be okay!

      Second, while I’m not great with numbers, from what you shared it seems like your original request for $X would have been a fairly hefty percentage increase, even with a promotion. Are you certain that your research is on-target and you’re comparing apples to apples? If you truly are making significantly under market rate, do you know if your company underpays in general, or do you think you yourself are being underpaid?

      1. gnarlington*

        Yes, we’re underpaid. (Ah, nonprofit!) But I love my job and love the work I’m doing. I don’t think market rate factored into my boss’ decision, which is fine. One of the things he said was that they can’t afford the actual going rate.

        And I’m going to try to internalize that first paragraph and calm down. Thanks!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      So you were asking for about 7k more than what you settled on?

      The boss probably thinks that you are not used to negotiating. Or maybe he thinks he’s glad you did not push harder.

      I sincerely doubt that he thinks you are irrational and kind of dumb. But I am willing to bet that you think that of yourself.

      Breathe.
      Say out into the air- “I forgive me”. I know, half baked and half-hearted, say it anyway.

      Now. What is it you want to repair here?

    3. Reb*

      From my internet-stranger perspective, this looks like …
      You asked for a raise. Well done.
      The guy you asked wants to keep you. Well done.
      He knows he can’t pay you what you’re worth, and now he knows you know what you’re worth.
      So he freaked a bit.
      So he told you what they pay managers. That’s very helpful info for you to have and shows that he screwed up a bit.
      And he offered you as much of a raise as he can. Chances are if you had kept on negotiating, you wouldn’t have got much more than his $X-9K. Maybe a little more, but not much.

  168. JustAnotherAnalyst*

    I was wondering how to bring up annoying speech patterns with a colleague. We have a team member who uses “kinda” or “you wanna see” in in almost every sentence. There is also at least one “ahem” every four words. His speech is otherwise grammatically correct, just interspersed with these fillers. Frankly, it undermines his credibility. How can I bring that up with him without being hurtful? We usually get along well.

    1. PX*

      I’m not the best with wording but look in the archives for examples on how to bring up constructive criticism on personal topics. The fact that it undermines his credibility makes it a valid topic to broach.

  169. AnonymousRightNow*

    I’m a regular reader, and occasional commenter, but am hoping I am not too late for advice.

    I started a new job as a chocolate teapot producer, and part of my job when making chocolate teapots is to work with customers to fix issues with their chocolate teapot orders. I spend a lot of time on the phone talking to people, and of course, some people get angry when we can’t make their chocolate teapots like they want, or when there is an error with their order. I always thought I wanted to work with people, so I took extra courses to become a Master Teapot Producer…but now that I’m doing it, I hate it.

    I have severe anxiety, which I thought was under control, but this job makes it 200 x worse. I’m going to start seeing a therapist (again…I’ve been seeing therapists on and off for years), and I’ve been trying medications, but often the medications make me feel ill, and make everything even worse than it already is.

    I am quickly realizing that unless I can completely change my personality and who I am…I can’t continue this. I struggle to sleep, I am gaining weight due to stress, I have no motivation left. I come home and worry. I dread Sundays. But I took these courses, and only started this job a short time ago.

    My resume looks pretty job hopper-ish because…well, I’ve been in and out of school for a few years. But I am about two more bad customers away from a mental breakdown. I’m sure some people will tell me to just suck it up because that’s part of life…but I can’t. If I could, I would. If I could change who I am, I would pay any amount of money, do anything, truly.

    But what now? I am afraid of just falling down the endless job hopper tube. I don’t want to be a burden on anyone. I just want a job where 90% of the time, I am not scared to go to work. (Please note, my co-workers and bosses are all kind people. But even they are starting to notice that I am cracking.)

    I don’t even know what I am asking honestly. I am just hoping that someone will read this and say, hey, this happened to me too, and here’s what I did, and here’s what happened.

    1. NicoleK*

      Do what you can at work and at home to take care of yourself. Take your breaks and lunches away from your desk. Take some time off if you’re able to. Start an exercise routine if that helps reduce your anxiety. Surround yourself with caring friends and family. And start looking for a new job.

      Regarding the job hopping, it’s not ideal but it’s not worth your mental health. After only 18 months, I had to leave a toxic job due to an unbearable new coworker. The situation was so bad; I couldn’t sleep, I was upset all the time, and I could no longer keep my emotions/frustration in check. I had to leave or risk having a nervous breakdown. I was concerned about some short stints in my job history (I had 4 jobs where the length of time in those jobs varied from 10 to 20 months) but current employer never even brought it up.

      So job hopping isn’t ideal and it can hurt your job prospects, but so is staying at a job that is consuming all your energy, positivity, and emotional well being.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure if it’s the angry customers that are stoking the problems here.

      While I would be the first one to tell you anxiety has a physical basis, I also know that anxiety can set in when we privately feel that we do not have the skills we need for the setting we are in.

      My suggestion is to gather up coping tools, because you say that you have had a few jobs now. I don’t think it’s the jobs, I think it’s learning to cope in the jobs. And most people need more than one tool for coping.

      So ideas:

      Cut back on the junk food, make sure you hydrate each day. Lots of water.
      Take walks, you’ll sleep better because you will dissipate some stress by walking regularly. Even if they are short walks.
      Read AAM as often as possible. Learn about holding down a job. I can tell you, I have learned more here than I ever learned in college or even in working. It’s free education, grab it.
      What are you reading at home? How about looking at some self-help books and finding just ONE that resonates with you. I say just one because you want to actually read it. You bring home ten you probably won’t look at any of them.You could look for something that will teach you the skills you need to talk with angry people.

      Now, as to whether you should quit your job or not only you really know the answer to that. So I am going to side step that question. I will suggest to you, that it’s only by staying with a job that we learn what it takes to settle in and really hold down a job over a period of time. Perhaps counseling is right for you, or maybe you could use a full medical check up. Those are possibilities.

      When I first started working, I ran autopsies of my day’s experiences. I picked 2 or 3 and noted what I LIKED about the way I handled things and also noted how I would like to change other things that I did. Notice, pick a couple situations AND be sure to notice what you did that you LIKED. I kept the parts I liked and I revamped the parts that were not so hot. Because I wanted to actually change what I was doing, I only targeted a couple of the day’s events. Handling all of the daily events would have been too much.

  170. Venting*

    Coming in a little late, but really just need to vent… I spent about 2 hours working on an application today for no other reason than technical snaffus:

    Started working on it on one browser. Got the pinwheel of doom.
    Opened in 2nd browser. same. Toggled settings in both.
    Opened site on cell phone. Resumed application. Tried reopening in browser, still won’t work. It needed a resume. Only can upload jpgs on my old phone.
    Resume is 2 pages long. Spend an inordinate amount of time trying to save the document as a landscape 2 page jpg, but it doesn’t work. Decide to just send one page.
    Holy questionnaires Batman… with the same thing asked twenty different ways, and often the same exact question you already answered.

    If it wasn’t so late in the evening, I’d be looking for a latte right about now…

    1. Audiophile*

      That happened to me a few weeks ago. I was applying for a job, uploaded my resume but then required me to input all of my job information and nothing could be left blank. It was infuriating.

  171. Crickets*

    I recently had a great phone screen interview and was invited to participate in a series of in-person interviews. I was advised I would be contacted by someone in HR to work out scheduling. It’s been a few days and I haven’t heard anything. I’d like to follow up and see what’s going on but not sure a polite/non-nagging way to phrase things. I have to meet with essentially the entire department (5 or 6 people) so I understand it could take a day or two to get confirmation of everyone’s schedules before reaching out. I just want to check in to see if the plan is to still have me come in. Any tips on wording would be great.

  172. DragoCucina*

    Very late, but wanted to post thanks and comment. My appreciation for suggestions working with our two HR interns. They are great. Their personalities are different and it works well because they are seeing different things that we can improve.

    The comment is that it’s nice to know you’re not crazy. Background: Previous ED was a bully and actively gas lighted me. I was on sabbatical with another system during the three months before her retirement. (Actually I had taken a lower paying job to get away from her, forcing her to announce her retirement plans. The Board considered my time as a sabbatical so I didn’t lose any PTO or other benefits.) When I walked into the office I discovered she had taken every personnel file home with her. I immediately called and stated they needed to be brought back.

    For many reasons the much of the jumbled mess that came back has sat in a closet. One of our interns is sorting through the files of what needs to be kept and shredded. Intern never knew previous ED. Just glancing at old evaluations she said to office manager, “She was a real tyrant. Her comments contradict each other in the same evaluation.” Third party, unbiased confirmation.

  173. plzhelp*

    Please help! I am worried that I accidentally overstated my experience on my resume!
    I worked in a lab in college and some research was published under my name (and others). I have the publication listed on my resume and then a one sentence summary of the conclusions ie “this research proved that handmade teapot handles improve user experience”. However, I wasnt involved in the analysis of the data and I dont even know how to do that. All I did was make the teapot handles. Are companies going to assume that I know about the data analysis techniques based on what is on my resume? I have an interview coming up and they seem very interested my research and I am a little paranoid.

  174. Not So NewReader*

    Some one may have a better answer than this, but what I would do is just vow to mention it as early in the interview as possible. “I know that your company is interested in this research that I worked on. I want to be totally upfront before we get too far into discussions, I did X aspect of the work and I did not do any work on Y aspect. I hope from your perspective it still makes sense for us to keep talking.”

  175. Anonyby*

    Question for those working in Academia!

    I have a friend who works at a local community college/university as staff, and through his influence I regularly check their site for job openings that I could apply for (even most of the lowest level FT stuff pays nearly double my current hourly rate).

    However, while we were talking last night he mentions that he can only take vacations during the breaks between quarters. Is this normal for staff in academy? They just had two jobs pop up on their site that look like something I could apply for (assuming I finish fixing my resume in time), but I’m also starting the groundwork of planning a vacation for next year where he was unavailable to take off for the rough timeline I was looking at (and I was looking at a whole season, rather than specific week or so). My BFF (his wife) and I are still planning on going at least (which is why his availability came up & was an issue).

    1. J*

      I have worked at higher ed institutions in the past in non-student-facing roles. We had a couple of times when time off would be difficult to secure (calendar and fiscal year-end), but other than that, I could go as long as I had the time.

      If you’re in a student services kind of role, it makes sense that you wouldn’t be able to take time off during registration season or whenever. College advisors might also be limited to break times.

      So the answer would be: it depends.

    2. JustAnotherAnalyst*

      This is fairly typical for instructors and lecturers. I personally know of at least one case where the FT instructor was denied a vacation request during the term. I spent a lot of time in academia (grad school, postdoc, instructor) and observed that many people seemed to never take vacation. Especially faculty would consider conference trips as vacations and bring along their family. It really depends on your role though.

  176. Lindsay J*

    Hey, I know I’m late on this one, but any input would be great.

    Boyfriend got a job offer this week, after putting in over 100 applications in the past year or so.

    The job would require relocation to a different state. The cost of living seems a bit lower there. Actually, I won”t be vague here. We’d be relocating from Houston to Tulsa.

    The problem is that for the first year he would be taking a paycut of $6000 (from $43K to $37K). It is a union position, and he is guaranteed a $7000 raise after 12 months. (And regular step raises after that.) The benefits package is better as well. (However, being union, he will also have to pay union dues that he is not currently paying.)

    His current job is with a much smaller, cash strapped company. Raises are not really done. There also not really a path for career progression for him in his current position. He’s in a high level individual contributor role, and any promotions would be to management positions that would require a technical license and years of technical experience that he doesn’t have.

    New company is very large – the biggest in the industry – and would offer the potential for promotion and lateral moves.

    My feeling is that we’re better off committing to living lean for a year in order to have the potential to progress his career in the long run. Especially as the difference is something we could easily make up by working second jobs, etc.

    He’s wavering back and forth on the idea. Any thoughts?

    1. NicoleK*

      There’s no opportunity for advancement and raises in his current company. Seems that the logical choice is to move forward with the new company. What are his concerns about accepting the position (besides the paycut)?

    2. Mander*

      From the way you’ve presented it here I’d say to take it! Unless there is another issue that he hasn’t quite identified it sounds like a much better deal. The pay cut will be difficult but if the cost of living is lower that may make up for some of the difference. And I’d think that over time working in a place with a clear path to moving up is better, even if there is an initial pay cut, than staying somewhere that doesn’t have any room for advancement.

    5. Reb*

      Take it! In 10 years he’ll have totally forgotten about that lean year but he’ll sure care about the level of opportunity.

  177. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

    Update…they called to say I’m a finalist and are going through some initial reference checks! I’m trying not to get my hopes up but I’m REALLY excited!

  178. M.A.C. (That kid who emailed you)*

    What about my thing? Please do the thingy you told me you were gonna do. You know, the one where you gather Aspie-specific advice for me? Please?

    1. Amtelope*

      In my experience, publicly nagging someone who has offered to do you a favor is not a very good way to encourage them to do you that favor more quickly. Unless you’ve paid someone for their time, they don’t owe you information or advice on your schedule.

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