open thread – September 30-October 1, 2016

by Alison Green on September 30, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,382 comments }

{ 1,382 comments… read them below }

  1. Anon13*

    Yay, open thread time! My question is about hair color in a professional environment. I used to have platinum blond hair. Needless to say, it was difficult and costly to maintain and, while I only dyed the roots, I had to get toners frequently, which wrecked havoc on my hair. I switched to a subtle ombre/balayage look about six months ago and have been loving it. It’s significantly easier to maintain and is a softer look. It’s dark blonde/light brown at the roots and light blond (but not platinum level light) at the ends. I’ll know you’ll just have to trust me on this, but it’s well done – I went to a salon that specializes in this and the color change is gradual. Earlier this week, I was pulled aside after a meeting and told that I need to work on my “polish” since I’ll be representing the firm at some upcoming trade shows. I honestly had no idea what the person who pulled me aside was referring to until she specified that it was my hair. She mentioned that it looked good in the pictures we had taken (when I had my platinum hair), but now it’s “all over the place.” (My hair is simple in style – not stick straight, but straight with a tiny bit of a wave, so I know she was referring to the color, not the texture/style.) She asked how I could not see that it was a problem and whether it was intentional and I said that yes, it was. After way too long of a time spent chastising me (about fifteen minutes), she said, if this is how younger people wear their hair, I can keep it this way, but I could tell she doesn’t approve (to provide context, I’m 33, she’s 66). Further complicating things is the fact that she has no authority over me. She’s an organizational coach our firm is working with. So, now I’m left wondering if I should change it. All of the other actual employees of the organization (as opposed to contractors) are men, so there’s no one I can turn to there for advice. FWIW, it’s a small law firm in the rust belt, so a conservative industry, but not a conservative/formal area or firm.
    I rambled on, so, TL:DR version: Is subtle ombre in natural colors unprofessional?

    1. Kelly L.*

      Aaah, I think she thought you just had roots showing. I think it’s probably fine, but there will likely be a few people like her who don’t realize it’s in style and don’t “get it.”

      1. Natalie*

        Assuming it’s well done as the OP says it is, a balayage shouldn’t look like roots showing, though – it should be a gradual color change from top to bottom, similar to blonde people who’s hair naturally gets lighter the longer it’s exposed to sun.

        1. my two cents*

          The Coach is 66 and yeah, my 65 yr old mother also thought ombre’d hair was ‘roots showing’. And honestly, I wouldn’t at ALL be surprised if this Coach was looking for something to comment upon. (as opposed to the management having asked the Coach to address ‘the issue’)

          1. Not the Droid You Are Looking For*

            My mom hated my balayage…she hates the rose gold coloring even more now.

            But that’s the one good thing about being Creative Services…everyone appreciates it when you are a little funky.

    3. Leatherwings*

      Hm. It’s hard to know, because in this context it might be. Law in particular has stricter rules about this.
      It’s possible that the coach is overly concerned (and the young people comment is just obnoxious), but she also might be right. Is there a close friend at the firm you can ask? Maybe even your boss?

    4. Beancounter in Texas*

      I think a good compromise is to style it conservatively when at the trade shows – hide the ends if you can in chignon bun – or in other very public places where you’ll be representing the company.

      1. Busytrap*

        This. I’m not sure I agree with this coworker that your hair is a problem, but I can understand you might not find it worth the fight. If you want to compromise, you can put it up to hide it.

        I have fantasy-colored tips on my platinum blond hair (same technique as balayage, but with bright-ass colors). I’m an attorney. At the company I work for and in my super-crunchy industry, it buys me cred (our lawyer has pink hair!!). When I’m interviewing/attending court/doing in-person negotiations … not so much. What I end up doing for those situations is a Gisbon roll or chignon to hide it (and swap out my piercings with a spacer, not sure if that’s applicable). I’ve never had any problems. Hell, I did this for an interview recently with a very conservative company and made it to the final round, but ultimately took myself out of the running because they (hey earlier comment!) finally disclosed the salary band and the top range was 2/3 of my current salary.

    5. AshK434*

      I would ignore this (rude) lady. If your manager or anyone else higher up the food chain in your org has never brought this up before, then I think you’re fine. I mean, if you’re really concerned about it could you ask a work mentor or your boss about this and mention that this organization coach brought it up?

    6. Sibley*

      Personally, I don’t like that trend. Just doesn’t do anything for me. However, there’s nothing inherently unprofessional about it, except for individuals who don’t like it at all, and that’s not rational.

      If it’s done badly and looks terrible, that’s another issue.

    7. Sunflower*

      I have tons of friends who do this look- I usually let my highlights grow out so I end up doing this look. Given I work in the Northeast US but I’ve never heard someone complain about it. I would check with your boss if you are concerned but my guess is if she hasn’t said anything to you yet, you’re probably fine.

    8. Clever Name*

      I’ve had a section of my hair dyed purple. Now it’s kind of a very dark maroon color with blonde highlights in my bangs. But I’m a scientist at a consulting firm, and I primarily do technical work, so I think that gives me a bit more leeway with not having a conventional hairstyle.

      Do you trust this woman’s judgement? How does she dress? Do you think she looks “polished”? I think sometimes outside experts that companies hire sometimes miss the mark on these things. We had a coach come in and give a presentation about professionalism, and she mentioned tattoos and piercings as being unacceptable. One of the principals chimed in and said, “Yeah, we really don’t care about that”. So she may be totally off base.

      If you’re really concerned that your hair is unprofessional, you could ask your other colleagues. Chances are, this woman just has an old-fashioned opinion of what hair color should look like.

      1. Anon13*

        I wish I could have my hair a fun color! I’m sad that I never did it in college since, unless I switch industries now, I’ll never be able to have some of the gorgeous looks that other people rock so well. Although, my 66-year-old mother did accidentally leave a toner in too long and she wound up with lavender hair and people loved it, so maybe it’s something I can look forward to when I retire!

        As for this consultant, she does have, I guess, old fashioned views about some other things. For example, she had made comments about nylons being required for professional dress. (We’re business casual and only dress business professional at things like networking dinners, etc., so I don’t think she’s ever seen that I don’t wear them. When I start here, though, there was a woman who trained me and she said they aren’t necessary.) She generally does look nice and polished, but I think she may just have old fashioned views about things. (Which is not intended as a knock on her age, in my past job, the women in their 50s and 60s were the ones I always looked to for stylish, pulled together professional dress.)

        Unfortunately, our firm is very small (fewer than 10 people) and no other women work here, so I’m not sure there’s someone I can turn to for advice on what they consider professional for a woman’s hairstyle. However, I am involved in some local networking groups. That might be a good place to start!

        1. brightstar*

          Her comment about needing nylons gives me the impression she just isn’t current with all the norms.

          From the sounds of it, your hair seems like it’s fine and if it was indeed a problem I think a higher up at work would likely have mentioned it already.

          1. Nada*

            I always think the nylons thing is weird – my friend worked for a state representative in DC and the requirement for her office was “closed and hosed.”
            Closed-toed shoes, and nylons.

        2. Mustache Cat*

          I think this lady is just old-fashioned. I mean, it’s good to file away the information that people like her are out there in your field, but I don’t think it’s worth changing your hair to suit this small subset.

          (And your hair sounds pretty!)

        3. zora.dee*

          Yeah, after the nylons comment, I’m even more convinced this lady is out of date and old fashioned, and you should ignore what she said and keep your hair the way it is. I doubt this will be a common opinion at the trade shows. Most celebrities are wearing their hair like this these days and I think the vast majority of people won’t care.

          If you were in an extremely conservative industry like finance or law, I might be concerned, but I don’t think you should worry about it.

            1. zora.dee*

              oh missed that. Yeah, if she was going to court often and there was a particular judge that was conservative about hair, this might be a concern. But for trade shows? Nah, ignore it.

        4. Formica Dinette*

          I agree with the others who commented that her advice sounds like it’s out of date. I suspect it’s sexist too. Corporette might me a good place to check for advice on professional hairstyles.

        5. motherofdragons*

          She sounds a lot like our Program Director, my boss’ boss. She is also in her 60’s. We have an admin (not public-facing) who gets creative with her hair color. She once dyed her hair a pretty shade of blue, and the Director made a comment along the lines of, “I don’t disapprove, but I’m confused about this trend, because I connote blue hair with old ladies!” I’ve also approached my boss about adding some purple streaks to my blonde hair, and she said “Oh that’s fine with me! But Director probably wouldn’t like it.” So possibly a generational/age/outdated norms thing for you, as well. I’m a professional in my late 20’s and your hair sounds lovely!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I have not thought about the blue hair of the 60s in a long time. THE HAIR that did not move, under any circumstances. You could invert the person and the hair would STILL not move. Picture steel wool pads glued to a person’s head.

            The blues of today are very different from the blues back then. And the hair is not in a state of rigor mortis.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            It sounds like mine–I’m a golden blonde with dark blonde roots and highlights. After I changed it from red, I got so excited that I could put streaks of pink and blue and purple in my hair. But I was worried about doing it at work, until I met one of our team members, whose hair is long on one side, short on the other, and half black-half white. I wore my streaks with impunity. ;)

        6. cat*

          I live in a southern metro area. Nylons are de rigueur for interviews and, depending upon the company/your boss, for work even when it is 113 degrees out.

          If your clients are more staid, it would make sense to have a more traditional hairstyle.

      2. Honeybee*

        Haha, I WISH some outside consultant would come in and talk about tattoos and piercings being unacceptable. Half our principals have rad, highly visible tattoos and piercings.

    10. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Ignore her but I do think some of the tips about styling your hair slightly more conservatively for the actual event (at least the first one until your guage the norms) aren’t a bad idea. Even something as simple as a low pony or adding more waves as a distraction looks a bit more polished.

      1. Pix*

        And see, I don’t think a ponytail would look professional anywhere but retail! I will say that I agree with checking with a professional female mentor. If you can’t, stick with a conservative bun or chignon.

        1. Sarianna*

          Depends on how long your hair is. Mine’s stick-straight, thick, and nearly hip-length!
          My options are:
          1. bun (out of the way but very heavy–at least baseball-sized and that’s just hair)
          2. low ponytail (still out of the way but neat)
          3. braid (out of the way, but forces me to wash my hair more often as it leaves ‘bends’ in the hair)
          4. left down (which only really looks nice for a day, gets caught on things, and is generally a huge pain that I reserve for special occasions)

          It usually ends up in the ponytail or bun, for convenience. I love my hair! But for work, I go for the most practical solution.

        2. Kelly L.*

          There are ponytails and ponytails. I think it mostly depends on where on the head they come from. Top of the head is 80s, high on the head is teen-y, but down by the nape wouldn’t bug anyone I know of.

    11. Mockingjay*

      No, I wouldn’t think it is unprofessional. Your ombre sounds like it mimics natural lightening or bleaching of ends, due to summer/sun exposure, etc.

      In the late 70s/80s, a lot of professional looks for women relied on heavy makeup and intense hair colors (overall dark brunettes, heavily frosted blondes). Given her age, this look is probably the mental “norm” the consultant absorbed in her early working years. Your softer look doesn’t match her expectation.

      As noted in many AAM threads, a clean, groomed appearance is all that is necessary for most business. I would ignore this bit of the consultant’s advice and concentrate on preparing technical and business details for the trade show. That’s what really matters.

        1. sylph*

          This is the first thing that popped into my head as well. Is she offering overall appearance tips to everyone or just to the one woman of the group?

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Although, if her comment was about keeping up with your dying and not getting dark roots, it’s only fair that it would only be offered to the people who she perceived had dark roots.

      2. Kelly L.*

        Yep, and I remember my mom bleaching her hair all the time in the 80s and hating it when the roots came in. Having the roots darker than the ends was like the plague. :D I think it was thought to be a sign of (a) not caring or (b) not having enough money to touch it up. She hasn’t adapted to the new styles in hair color.

        3. Elizabeth West*

          I remember that too, and I’m gratified that I can wait a bit longer, but it still makes me uncomfortable when the roots get too prominent. Then I have a grey streak on my part like a skunk. :P

      3. PatPat*

        I have to disagree that trend among professional women in the late 70s early 80s was for heavy makeup and intense hair color. That’s certainly not what I observed. Just the opposite.

        1. my two cents*

          To me, ‘heavy makeup’ might mean maximum smokey eye, but it can mean heavy foundation application – wearing liquid foundation, concealer, and powder, and blush, or you ended up bare-faced with eye circles and acne scars. Didn’t have amazing tinted moisturizers and color-corrective primers back then!

          Hair color has come a long way, too with highlights only becoming A Thing in the 80’s and 90’s, but otherwise it was still leaning towards flat all-over color as at-home boxed dyes became more popular as well.

    12. Manders*

      I think the ombre sounds gorgeous. I’m really surprised that anyone (much less someone who’s not your boss!) would tell you otherwise.

      But then again, I accidentally turn my hair purple a few months ago, so take my professional hair advice with a grain of salt.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Ha, I’ve done that too. It was a dark auburn dye and I’m blondish. I was in college and it was October, though, so people thought I’d just done it on purpose for Halloween, which worked out OK.

        1. Manders*

          The auburn dye is what got me too! It did eventually fade to a pretty color, but I was rocking the purple for at least a week.

          I’m starting to get that itch to do something drastic with my hair again–I work in a conservative law office, but my field is marketing, so every time I go to a conference I see women with gorgeous purple and blue undercuts.

          1. my two cents*

            I’m an engineer, but I like to color my own hair because combining math and science with colors is fun for me. I lighten my hair very slightly to a level 5-ish brown, and I like to do Pravana (Manic Panic style) purple over my otherwise-brown hair. Indoors it looks like a cool-toned dark shiny brown, but in sunlight it glows BRIGHT purple…kinda like “oil-slick” highlights, but in a solid color.

            1. Manders*

              That sounds GORGEOUS. I miss my Manic Panic days.

              I’m getting married in December and I think I’m going to dye my hair blue for it, then dump some black over it before I get back to the office.

              1. my two cents*

                Sally’s Beauty Supply sells an “Age Beautiful” line you should check out – they have a blue-brown (3B) that’s really great, and would avoid the hard-to-remove black.

              2. my two cents*

                I started with the Pravana Vivids Violet, but have since switched to Rusk’s Deepshine and mix 50/50 of their blue and purple colors to avoid the red-wine plums. I’ve also since discovered Framesi ‘Pure’ blue and purple permanent colors, and now use a 50/50 mix with 20 vol developer for root re-touches so I’m not stripping the semi’s back out with each full process.

                Pravana…it tends to stain whatever skin it touches. The first time I rinsed it out, I hadn’t taken much care and my ultra-pale legs were absolutely purple. lol

      2. Anon13*

        Thanks! I love the way it looks.

        My mother accidentally turned her hair purple by leaving a toner in too long; I typically went to the salon to get my toners when I had platinum hair, but the few times I did it myself, I always worried about ending up with purple or blue hair.

    13. Observer*

      I do think that it’s quite possible that this woman really is out of touch – and she may not have meant to be obnoxious about the “young people” comment.

      The question is who is going to be at this show? People like her who are going to see this as your color being “all over the place” or people who either won’t notice or will get it? I would absolutely not ask the guys in your office. But do reach out to people who know the industry and industry norms. It’s quite possible that while this does look at bit sloppy (untouched roots rather than a deliberate choice), the way you dress and do your hair would offset that enough to make it not a problem. And, it could be that it’s just not an issue and it’s really just her “thing”.

    14. Zoe*

      If you’re confident it looks good/natural, I would ignore her unless she brings it up again or makes a snotty comment. At that point, I would go to your manager and say, “Hi Bob, I realize this is a bit of an awkward question, but Sally told me that my hair color is unprofessional and I should change it for the trade show. She’s mentioned this a few times now. I was really surprised by this, but I do want to make sure I am representing the firm well. Do you also think my hair color is unprofessional?”

      He is probably going to give you a sputtering, awkward “No, wth” answer, in which case you can stop worrying and shut the rude lady down next time. On the off chance he’s like “Yeahhh I didn’t want to say anything but now that you mention it…” then at least you know, and you can ask your colorist for something less trendy.

      1. irritable vowel*

        I think this is a good suggestion. I wouldn’t even wait for her to bring it up again! If you’re fairly confident your boss will have your back, just mention it to him or her, get the signoff on it, and then bring that back to this consultant. And, like Zoe says, if on the off chance he or she does say something about it, then it’s good to have that information and it didn’t need to come up in an awkward way for either of you.

    15. Merida May*

      I’m from the Northeast and in a less conservative field (but with a similar hair progression of previously platinum and now rocking a much easier maintanence schedule of dark blonde/rose gold ombre) so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I wouldn’t color your hair at this point. Right now you have the single, emotionally charged (so odd) opinion of a woman who does not directly work for your company. I’d let it go for the time being. Of course, if it becomes something that other people, specifically in your supervisory chain, are commenting on you can re-evaluate.

    16. DragoCucina*

      Unless you were in a situation (courtroom) where it might be an issue I wouldn’t worry about it. I have extremely short hair and used to wear it spiked up. I sometimes still do. My former board chair hated it and dropped major hints that he would like me to grow my hair to a “normal” length. Sorry, not going to happen. I’m in my late 50s and this is how I wear my hair.

      All that is to say, she doesn’t get it and is letting her personal preferences color (haha) her perception of professional. It’s frustrating and maddening when people do this. Unless your hair is actually impacting the work performance, is neat and clean try not to let it bother you. We are not cookies stamped out with a cookie cutter. (And if you want to get a look at a wide variety of wild hair and tattoos go to a library convention.)

    17. Anon13*

      All,

      I’m not going to reply individually since I’ll wind up saying the same thing over and over, but thank you for the advice/comments! My boss travels a ton and is currently in Europe, but I’m going to casually bring it up to him when he gets back to make sure he doesn’t have any problem with it. Assuming that he doesn’t, I’m going to go with a simple chignon or similar look for the upcoming trade shows/conventions. I’m also going to mention it to a few women from a networking group I’m a part of to gauge their opinions.

      FWIW, neither of the trade shows we’re attending are particularly formal. The one coming up in a couple of weeks is a local show/convention for small business owners. I’ve attended before and people dress from polished casual (nice jeans, a blouse and blazer) to business casual (a dress and blazer for women, dress pants and a polo or shirt with no tie for men). I don’t think I saw any attendees in business professional dress when I attended, though a few speakers were. The other coming up at the beginning of November is for a casual industry and many attendees and exhibitors wear jeans. There are more at the beginning of next year, but the two coming up in the coming months are the ones we’re focusing on now.

      1. Formica Dinette*

        Please reconsider asking your boss about it. I’m concerned it might open the door for him or others at the firm to think it’s OK to weigh in on your appearance.

        2. Anon13*

          That’s something I hadn’t thought about. While he’s never said anything to me about appearance in the past, he does frequently comment on other women’s appearances (in a general way, so-and-so is so good looking, all of the women at (office he frequently works out of in another country) are so thin and attractive, etc.) So this may be a door I want to keep shut. I’ll have to weight the pros and cons. Thanks for the alternate perspective!

      2. JMegan*

        It sounds to me like you have a good idea of the norms in your industry – certainly you’ve been very observant about what people wear to different kinds of trade shows. Which suggests to me that you’re also correct in your assessment that the salon did a good job, and that this style is not inappropriate in your office environment. (And it sounds lovely, by the way!)

        I think it’s not a bad idea to do a quick check-in with your boss, just in case. But other than that, I would deliberately choose to edit the consultant’s advice to read as follows: she said…I can keep it this way. and ignore the rest.

        1. Stardust*

          I like your “she said… I can keep it this way” and ignoring what sounds like outdated advice.

    18. Maria*

      Agree with others who say that “diffferently colored roots = unprofessional” to some people, especially older people.

      A friend of mine was given a similar speech when she stopped dyeing to cover her gray. She was tired of the upkeep and was ready to go gray, but that growing-out phase was greatly frowned upon.

      1. Blurgle*

        Or “any colour but a plain, unbalayaged colour between blonde and black”. I was once informed that my natural hair colour was unprofessional. WTF

      2. Anna*

        That is sexism coming and going. It’s encouraged that women dye their hair to cover the offensive gray and then when they refuse to do it any longer, they get dinged for it looking “unprofessional” to have the grow out.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, I caught that, too. OP, this might boil down to if it makes sense to you and you carry it well then ignore her.

          Another thing that strikes me, isn’t funny/odd how one person with a comment will stand out beyond 100 people with NO comment.

          You said there are not a lot of women at your job. So she has very few people to compare you to and you can’t say “Jane colors her hair like this also!” I think I would go with, “Gee, you are the only person who has mentioned it to me…. why is that?” Hopefully, you can say it without sounding sarcastic.

    19. Nan*

      I think it sounds pretty. I just asked my boss and HR last week if I’m allowed to have rainbow hair. Rainbow underneath, but still brown on the top layers. A hidden bit of magic! I talk to clients on the phone, but am rarely face to face with them. Our policy is to keep it professional if it has to be client facing, but since I could conceivably not show the rainbows to the client, it’s a-ok.

      1. Cat steals keyboard*

        That sounds so cool!

        I work for a charity and fun hair is fine. One of my interview panel had bright pink hair…

      2. Liz W.*

        I did this and the way the highlights are put in I can style it so everything is covered by my natural dark brown. I keep the cut and style very classic so the color is a surprise for most folks. Works great for 20th century work and 19th Century living history!

    20. NW Mossy*

      I wouldn’t think so at all, but then again, I live in the NW where this sort of style is quite common. In fact, I sat behind a woman on the bus recently who had an absolutely gorgeous dye treatment – it was alternating blond and rose pink pieces, creating this really lovely fresh-pulled-taffy sort of look. Basically, if Strawberry Shortcake was fabulously wealthy and a fashionista, this would have been her hair.

    21. Lady Blerd*

      It is hard to tell without pictures. So I suggest you ask some of your colleagues, preferably those who’s opinion you trust and, as others have said, ask your supervisor, their opinion is what really matters.

      I have a friend who dyed her hair red and who was told it wasn’t a natural colour until somoene else pointed out that his kids had the same colour naturally. Everyone has opinions. But based on your descripton, it sounds fine to me.

    22. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Could you post a link to a picture of someone with similar hair to you?

      I’m asking because her reaction seems so off-base that it’s hard to understand — unless your hair is (much) more dramatic than I’m imagining.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          If your hair looks like that, it looks fine. If you’re self-conscious now about about the ends and contrasting colors, you can do a low chignon to tuck them in.

    23. CMT*

      I’m guessing this person just doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Since she doesn’t have any authority over you, I’d ignore it.

    24. Kristin D*

      I’m an attorney. Your hair sounds fine to me. When I am in front of a judge, or giving a presentation, my dress and grooming is much more conservative. (I have very long hair, and I put it up, and I get rid of my glitter nail polish. ) So, I would follow the other suggestions and probably do a conservative updo for those occasions. But, for a trade show or regular office time, your hair sounds lovely.

    25. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m older than you (but younger than her) and honestly, ombre is always going to look like dark roots to me. I don’t find it unprofessional, though. It’s just a trend I’m not into.

    26. Karanda Baywood*

      OMG, no, it’s not unprofessional.

      I think this is less about the age of the consultant than about her weirdly conservative thinking and general busybody-ness.

      It’s not about age.

    27. Marisol*

      without seeing the hair, I can’t opine, although I’m inclined to say it sounds appropriate.

      I have my own issues with organization-coach-type consultants. We had one here and she was nothing but a boundary-less, annoying buttinsky who went around hugging people and offering unsolicited advice. She had recently retired from teaching at a big university and seemed to be transferring the dynamic she had with her students (she had all the power in her classroom; her students were young and naive) to the office. I am an exec assistant in my 40’s and she would come by my desk and say “hey girlfriend!” and start talking about makeup as if I were a teenager. She took me aside and gave me the advice to keep a good relationship with the CEO’s assistant, as if the idea would never have occurred to me (and I had not asked her opinion in the first place). She would hug me and I gave increasingly strong messages that I didn’t want to be hugged, such as stiffening my body, stepping away, but she would not take the hint. The only reason I wasn’t more direct about it was we had a terrible HR person at the time and was afraid there might be repercussions. After the new, awesome HR director was hired, lots of people complained about this woman and her services were discontinued.

      So while I clearly have a bias, I have to wonder if this woman wasn’t just trying to justify her existence by pestering you. A conversation about a haircolor should take 5 minutes at most. Fifteen minutes sounds like abuse, and also sounds like she has nothing more really meaningful to do. So I give her the side-eye.

      I would run the criticism past my boss, however, to make sure the coach wasn’t asked to speak to you about it. And if it is true that your hair is fine, objectively speaking, then HER judgement should be questioned and you can mention THAT to your manager.

      1. Cat steals keyboard*

        If you’re hugging people at work like that you are in no position to be dispensing professional advice. Yeech.

        1. Marisol*

          She gave us the myers-briggs test (the one thing about her that was actually useful) and because she taught a myers-briggs course in college and the test deals with different personality types and how they get along, she billed herself as a “relationship expert.” She struck me as incredibly lonely and needy, which was both the cause and result of her bad boundaries, and couldn’t or wouldn’t pick up on social cues to save her life, yet she was the relationship expert. God I hated that woman.

          1. Honeybee*

            I am more skeptical of her then, especially as a professor at a college. Lots of people like Myers-Briggs but it is not a scientifically constructed or validated personality test. I can’t imagine why anyone would teach an entire college course on MBTI, or how the psychology department would even let that fly.

    28. FiveWheels*

      I work in a very conservative field, but in that field any remotely unnatural hair color would read as unprofessional.

      Dyed blonde probably gets more leeway than other colours because it’s so ubiquitous, but even then, visible roots would read as very unpolished.

    29. Somniloquist*

      I used to work in a conservative company in a rather conservative industry in the NE where professional dress was required and if you were caught with sneakers, you were called in by your manager (even if you were a manager yourself). Ombrés were fine as long as they were a natural color (aka not pink or blue). In fact, there were a variety of hairstyles there that ran the gamut, and I never heard of anyone complaining or getting called into an office. It sounds like your hair is fine, and pretty!

    30. Tax Accountant*

      I think some of these org/career coaches hired by conservative industries have a very specific “look” they want people to fall under. When I worked in public accounting in a mid sized regional firm, our office had this career coach come in and meet with some of the staff (only the women though, because I guess men are naturally professional… eyeroll) and actually told one of my coworkers that her hoop earrings (small, like 1″) were “too se&ual” and that she needed to dress only in clothes from Talbots. She also told one of the senior managers that she was too fat to make partner. It was absurd. They tried to put everyone in this cookie cutter mold of polished, upper middle class, country club look. Which is stupid, for many reasons, alienating to talented staff who dont fit the mold, and doesnt even make sense considering the wide range of clients we had, some of whom would have probably responded better to someone who didnt look extremely buttoned up and stuffy. It made me so angry. Anyway, you’re probably fine.

    31. Red*

      I work in the medical field and have a bright red curly bob. Patients, coworkers, corporate folks, everyone loves it. I think the key here is to think of what your clients would be uneasy with, and not necessarily what this random lady is bothered by. I personally would not be bothered at all by ombre, and I think it’s a very polished way to do unconventional hair.

    32. Honeybee*

      No, subtle ombre is not unprofessional in general. I think this is an issue of culture – not just the culture of your workplace, but also the specific cues and desires the company has about someone who is representing them publicly. IMO, this sounds like someone who’s either a bit out of touch with hair styling or has really conservative views about how women should wear their hair in professional settings (or both). I would also be curious to hear what her suggestions are about what, exactly, you are supposed to do with it.

      I guess the question is, how much say does this organizational coach have in who goes to trade shows and gets other work assignments? Is this a person who is going to be writing a report for suggestions to make to the company, and how seriously is any suggestion that your very normal hair is unpolished going to be taken by decision makers?

      (I have the tips of my hair dyed green, and I represent my company publicly a lot. Buuuuut I work in a workplace where fantasy colors are very common. In fact, my hair is probably in the middle of the spectrum as far as colored hairstyles go.)

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Oh my god. What the hell is wrong with people! I can’t stand the attitude so many people have about allergies.

      1. overcaffeinatedqueer*

        That’s awful. That said, I don’t understand the campus wide peanut bans on some public schools. Some even say don’t feed the kid that before school for breakfast!

        I mean, peanut butter is on WIC, cheap, shelf-stable, calorie dense, and common in food pantries. I think total bans can put an undue burden on poor families. Sure, lunch may be free, but kids often make fun of those that get it free and so it might be “cheap PB sandwich or get humiliated” or “peanut butter on toast or just bread for breakfast.”

        1. J*

          Some allergy-sufferers have extreme allergies. Simply avoiding a peanut product may not be enough to prevent an attack. It’s sad, and I don’t know why it seems more prevalent now than when I was growing up, but as someone with friends who have kids with severe reactions, I applaud schools for being proactive about this.

          1. overcaffeinatedqueer*

            I understand allergies can be severe, anti like separate tables and areas and handwashing as precautions; just not bans. Given that half of all school kids are in poverty on average, I just don’t think you can ban such a common and vital food and risk several kids losing out on learning due to hunger, for onekid’s allergy.

            If there was free, non-stigmatized breakfast and lunch at school that kids wouldn’t be made fun of for getting, I would feel different.

            2. Blurgle*

              If you are peanut butter two tables away from me, I might need an ambulance. My life is infinitely more valuable than anyone’s supposed right to eat one food out of 100,000.

              1. Anna*

                It’s not about rights, but about who ultimately is burdened by a school-wide ban. See Observer’s comment below.

                1. Blurgle*

                  My life is infinitely more valuable than anyone else’s ‘burden’. I’m not dying so someone can save five cents a week.

                2. Jadelyn*

                  Blurgle, I think you underestimate the place that foods like peanut butter have in poverty households. We’re not talking “save five cents a week”, we’re talking “subsist on plain bread or get at least a little protein in a kid’s diet at all”.

                3. Mags*

                  Burdened how? If you can’t afford to offer your kid anything other than peanut butter sandwiches than you surely qualify for free/reduced lunch program which is going to give your kid protein, whole grains, vegetables or fruit and milk.

                  Something people seem to be completely missing as well. Allergies are not just for middle-class families. And forcing kids out of a school which refuses to institute/enforce a ban is something that absolutely places an undue burden on families. Not everyone can afford to move to ensure their kids can attend a school where they don’t have to worry about dying. Or pay for a private school, or home school…

                4. Natalie*

                  @ Mags, part of the issue is forbidding peanut consumption outside of school though. That’s a huge overreach, especially to poor families, and not going to be solved by a free school lunch.

                5. Mags*

                  @Natalie
                  As I stated in a reply below, that is ludicrous and would obviously be impossible to enforce. If someone’s allergies are so bad they cannot be around anyone who has eaten a peanut within the last 24 hours they are probably not able to be in public at all. And in a search I could not find a single example to back up that was a rule at any school. So that is really not part of the issue at all.

                6. Honeybee*

                  Seriously, nobody is ‘burdened’ by not being able to eat peanut butter at lunch. But people are burdened by not being able to breathe.

              2. Pwyll*

                +1000. I have to practically OD on antihistamines to fly in a plane, because they will almost undoubtedly give someone a bag of peanuts no matter how much I ask them not to, and I can feel my throat close from the back of the plane pretty close to the moment the bag is opened at the front. We’re talking microscopic particles of of peanut far, far away from me. If there’s a student at the school with that level of sensitivity, too bad so sad at your PBJ inconvenience. And while I get the poverty aspect of things (truly, as I was raised in a similar environment), as Blurgle says, my ability to breathe outweighs your choice in food.

                1. Emerson*

                  If you are SO allergic that someone eating something 60 metres away will cause you an allergic reaction, that’s not really something you can expect other people to have to tip-toe around. That’s an extreme case and not really their problem.

                  You can not stop other people eating what they want at that distance. What is next, banning everyone in the country from eating nutella or peanut butter?

                2. Honeybee*

                  @Emerson – I genuinely don’t understand this reaction. If you were told that someone on the plane would die if you had a bag of peanuts, why would you want the bag of peanuts? I would rather wait to eat my peanuts at home or wherever so that another person could live to see another day.

                3. Emerson*

                  Because I bring my own food onto planes so I don’t have to eat the disgusting nasty stuff dished up on planes and the moment you can’t have this food, that food this food and that food too, what on earth is left for people to eat?

                4. GH in SOCal*

                  I haven’t seen a bag of peanuts on an airplane in about 5 years. They’ve all switched to pretzels and other snack mixes for exactly this reason.

                  OTOH since they don’t serve meals anymore I suppose your fellow passengers may well be packing PB&J in their bags. (I bring chicken legs, myself.)

                5. Observer*

                  @emerson is correct. If you are that allergic, either don’t fly or stuff up on antibiotics. It doesn’t make a difference whether the airlines give people packs of peanuts or not. Are you really expecting them to confiscate every bit of food whose ingredients they don’t know?

                  On top of this, you need to remember that peanuts are not the only food that can cause this kind of reaction. The only way to really protect all people from ever being exposed to airborne particles of foods that are highly allergenic (to them) foods is to ban eating in public or at least in public areas like planes.

              3. Retail HR Guy*

                You wouldn’t have an allergic reaction to peanut butter from twenty feet away. A psychosomatic mental health issue, maybe, but not an actual allergic reaction (especially not one strong enough to induce anaphylaxis).

                Relevant quote from http://acaai.org/allergies/types/food-allergies/types-food-allergy/peanut-allergy : “While some people report symptoms such as skin rashes or chest tightness when they are around or smell peanut butter, a placebo-controlled trial of children exposed to open peanut butter containers documented no systemic reactions.”

                (And also, no, no one’s life is infinitely valuable. Not even yours.)

                1. YaH*

                  When I was diagnosed with my tree nut allergy, my allergist told me that there have been no scientifically proven reports of allergic reactions from airborne exposure to nuts. You have to physically interact with the proteins in order to have a histamine reaction.

                2. Bex*

                  Actually, ACAAI actually cites quite a few studies that say that inhallation reactions CAN occur: http://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/peanut-air-travel

                  In particular, this one: Though not widely recognized, food hypersensitivity by inhalation can cause major morbidity in affected individuals. The exposure is usually more obvious and often substantial in occupational environments but frequently occurs in non-occupational settings, such as homes, schools, restaurants, grocery stores, and commercial flights. The exposure can be trivial, as in mere smelling or being in the vicinity of the food. The clinical manifestations can vary from a benign respiratory or cutaneous reaction to a systemic one that can be life-threatening.

                3. Honeybee*

                  First of all, you only copied the first half of that paragraph. The second half says “Still, food particles containing peanut proteins can become airborne during the grinding or pulverization of peanuts, and inhaling peanut protein in this type of situation could cause an allergic reaction. In addition, odors may cause conditioned physical responses, such as a skin rash or a change in blood pressure.” The context of this entire page that you linked to is how dangerous peanut allergies are and how seriously they should be taken.

                  I found the study ACAAI referenced (it’s not the study they linked to; it’s not even in the references of the study they linked to). The study was a study of 30 children with peanut allergies, and they did both skin testing and inhalation testing. It’s true that they found no systemic reactions in their study; but what the researchers actually concluded was “at least 90% of highly sensitive children with peanut allergy would not experience a systemic-respiratory reaction from casual exposure to peanut butter.”

                  In other words, extreme inhalation-based allergic reactions to peanut butter, specifically, are rare – but that doesn’t mean anything about inhalation exposure to peanuts; in fact, 11 children in the study had documented previous inhalation reactions to peanuts. Nor does it mean that an inhalation reaction to peanut butter is nonexistent. It certainly does not mean that the reaction someone has is a “psychosomatic mental health issue” (you don’t provide any evidence supporting that statement; where on earth did you get that from?)

          2. Observer*

            Actually, there is a fair amount of evidence that the over-avoidance may be a problem.

            In any case, campus wide bans simply don’t work. When you consider what overcaffeinated says about the burden on the poor, you begin to realize that it’s time to step back and rethink this.

            One of my relatives is a school principal, and she told me that they won’t go peanut-free on a school wide basis. She said that these kinds of policies actually put kids at risk, because it gives parents a false sens of safety. The reality is that it simply is not possible to truly enforce a real campus-wide ban. If you start expecting people to not feed their kids PB at home either, then you’ve reached a point where you can be certain that on any given day at least on kid in each class has broken the rule.

            As it happens, these rules are used as an excuse to not have epi-pens in schools, to enforce “zero tolerance” drugs rules in schools that forbid even medication (including the child’s own epi-pen etc.) and to enforce other stupid rules that endanger lots of kids. “Well, we can do this because we’re a peanut free zone, so no one is in danger.” Yeah, no one. Except for the kids who are allergic to fish, milk, wheat, eggs, nuts or any of the less common allergens.

          3. Alton*

            I think it’s really hard to protect everyone, though. You can ban peanuts from school buildings, but dictating what people eat at home takes it to another level. And frankly, most people who don’t deal with allergies are unlikely to be as vigilant about ingredients, meaning that any kid who eats a granola bar at home before going to school is a potential risk.

            I’m all for making accommodations, but if someone’s allergy is literally so severe that the slightest residue could cause a life-threatening reaction, I think that’s a point where reasonable accommodations are no longer really possible, and maybe the person’s safety can’t be guaranteed in public.

            While some peanut allergies are very severe, most people do need some sort of close contact to peanuts/peanut residue to have a reaction, so I’m not convinced that asking parents not to feed their kids peanut butter *at home* is a reasonable for of prevention.

            1. Jadelyn*

              I agree – if your allergies are so severe that you need to dictate what people eat in their own home, that’s gone past reasonable accommodation and maybe it’s time for home-schooling or some other solution.

              2. Elizabeth West*

                Yes, and I feel bad for someone with that severe an allergy. I can’t even imagine how limiting that must be. But you can’t control the entire world.

                However, if kids have serious allergies, the school needs to let them have the damn Epi-Pen!!

                1. Observer*

                  Yes!

                  I’ve never been able to wrap my head around the logic of forbidding medication in school.

              3. Emerson*

                Yes. This. Absolutely.

                I am so sick of people thinking I am an asshole because I think that is extreme. If YOUR allergy is so severe you want to dictate to me what I eat in my OWN HOME, you need to look at what you can do to improve your situation.

                I understand it is limiting, but how is it meant to go in the ‘real world’. Do they honestly think they’ll ask everyone before they get on the bus or the tube ‘did you eat a nutella crepe for Breakfast? If you did, I can’t let you on’ or ban everyone on a University campus of 50,000 people from eating Nutella or chocolate on campus or before they come in for the day.

        2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          My daughter’s school hired a teacher this year with a very severe peanut allergy. Anyone who has eaten peanut products must wash hands and rinse out their mouth before going to her room. No one in her room can bring their lunch into the room if it has peanuts. My understanding is that lunches are already stored in the cafeteria, so this should be a non-issue. Also, the teacher can’t enter the cafeteria at all due to the risk of someone having a lunch with peanuts. I was really surprised there wasn’t a ban of peanut products at the school. I feel for the teacher and I’d be so worried that a student was going to forget. She works with 2nd graders, so I’m sure there wouldn’t be any malicious attempts to get her to have a reaction, but how awful if one of the kids just forgot the extra precautions and came in contact with her!

          1. Slate*

            Yeah, I can’t imagine having a peanut butter allergy this severe and going into working with kids. What if one of the kids has peanut butter for breakfast and then forgets to brush his teeth before leaving the house? You can’t always trust a kid to remember these sorts of things.

        3. Matilda*

          A former coworker had two children with severe peanut allergies and she would not eat anything with peanuts in them (cookies, peanut butter, etc.) because having a peanut butter cookie and breathing on her sons when she got home could cause problems for them. It’s not just eating products with peanuts in them that can cause kids with allergies to have severe issues.

        4. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          A friend has a son with severe allergies and she hates school wide bans. It just upsets everyone and makes solutions harder.

          Her preference is no food in the classroom at all, and a designated allergen-free and well-cleaned area of the cafeteria. It has worked well for her and her son. And the other parents and kids don’t resent her son because they can’t have yogurt and a peanut butter sandwich

        5. Mags*

          So the outside chance that someone could be made fun for getting a free lunch is worse than children dying from peanut exposure? I can’t even comprehend this argument.

          1. overcaffeinatedqueer*

            No, from a disability standpoint it’s about undue burden and what’s a reasonable accommodation. Asking someone to not eat a staple food, even for breakfast at home, that may be all they can afford, or be looked down on by others (and being hungry or bullied has an awful negative impact on learning), is not reasonable. Also consider that the poverty and affordability issues affect several people, whereas an allergy affects one. I have allergies myself. I know how they work. And any other precautions are great. Other precautions are statistically shown to be equally as good as bans, or at least close to it, without making others miserable.

            1. Mags*

              Asking parents to not pack ONE food at lunch is not an undue burden. And not being able to eat a peanut butter sandwich for lunch 5 days a week is making people “miserable”? I have never seen a ban on eating peanuts before school (that would obviously be impossible to enforce) and googling turned up nothing either, so I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up.

              The negative impact of being bullied is not comparable to the negative impact of dying. And stating definitively that either kids are going to pack peanut butter sandwiches or be bullied by getting free lunch is a HUGE stretch. You are assuming they are always going to be able to afford to pack lunch (unlikely if you qualify for free/reduced lunch programs and WIC). That other students are going to be aware of who is paying for their lunch and who got theirs free, that there are students in this school who would bully someone for this. And that the school is going to allow this bullying, as zero-tolerance policies are even more common than peanut bans.

              Furthermore, other precautions like making peanut-allergic kids eat in a separate room or segregated table just ostracizes them and obviously opens them up to bullying.

              1. Anna*

                I’ve worked in a school for many years and I can tell you it’s very hard to get some parents to cooperate, even with very basic and obvious rules like “Put a coat on your child if it’s snowing outside” and “Don’t drop off your child in the middle of the road.” The rules apply to other people, never to them. A school-wide ban would just lead to a false sense of security.

                At our school, we had a nut-free table. What did one of our peanut allergy sufferer’s mother pack her for lunch? A Nutella sandwich. Another allergic student’s father would join him for lunch occasionally. The student had a school lunch, and the dad brought his own lunch from Subway–including a cookie with nuts in it (placed right next to the nut-free table sign). A mother of a child with a peanut allergy was doing some work on a library computer. Despite there being several “No Peanuts” signs posted throughout the library and even on the front door, she was eating a package of peanut butter crackers and touching the mouse and keyboard that students use.

                I don’t mean to pick on the parents of allergy-sufferers here, I just am pointing out that even the people who are inclined to be more diligent make mistakes.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  And here is the actual problem. It strikes me that people on both sides of the allergy predicament are making good points. My question is why aren’t scientists coming up with something to help people with severe allergies. Why do allergic reactions seem more common and more severe than when I was growing up?

                  It’s just not possible to avoid nuts for the rest of your life. I went to a dinner meeting for work. The restaurant was so dimly lit I could not identify the food on my plate. When my salad suddenly got very crunchy, I realized it had chopped nuts. I don’t digest nuts very well. Fortunately, I never eat them at home so a little bit was not going to make me keel over in pain. I have no clue how other people, who are far worse off than me, can deal with a situation like this. I was at a work function and I could not see my food because the lighting was so very dim.

                  I think that instead of arguing among ourselves, we should be demanding that the medical community come up with real solutions. People can’t go live in a bubble for the rest of their lives, that’s not realistic. And yet there are many people out there who either cannot comprehend what is involved in a nut allergy or simply have a momentary lapse in judgement. And all it takes is one minute of not thinking clearly.

                2. Honeybee*

                  @NotSoNewReader – Scientists are working on solutions to help people with severe nut allergies; you can see it in the scientific literature. Several things have been tried. But it’s difficult and takes a long time, especially since allergies can be complex and different for each sufferer. Scientists first have to understand the cause and etiology of an allergy before they can devise appropriate solutions. It also takes a lot of money, and federal dollars for science and medicine are actually being slashed in many areas. The funding rate for National Institutes of Health grants is less than 20% these days – as in, fewer than 1 out of 5 of the grants that gets submitted to the NIH gets funded. Peanut allergies is not a ‘sexy’ area of research that will get you lots of scientific recognition and tenure, so there may be fewer scientists working in that area and more scientists who choose to study more du jour things like HIV, autism and cancer (all also important areas!)

                  There’s also a little bit of research on why allergies seem more common and severe – part of that is simple knowledge (it was harder to identify the reasons why people were reacting and dying years ago; now we have more sophisticated tests to prove it’s peanuts et al.) and part of that is

                3. mags*

                  @Not So New Reader
                  I think it’s pretty naive to just demand the medical community find a cure for allergies instead of doing what we can to prevent deaths with the medical information we have now. Viruses were discovered in the late 18900s, cancer and asthma from sometime BC. And in all those years we still don’t have curses.

                  But, yes, it absolutely is possible to avoid nuts for your entire life, and it does not involve living in a bubble. If you have severe food allergies you don’t just eat something when you don’t know the ingredients. You ask the restaurant and you make sure they have good segregation practices or you don’t eat it. You don’t have a momentary lapse in judgement, because, depending on the severity of your allergy, that might very well mean death.

              2. Emerson*

                > Furthermore, other precautions like making peanut-allergic kids eat in a separate room or segregated table just ostracizes them and obviously opens them up to bullying.

                That’s kinda just life though when you have a special need. When they are older and in the workplace, they are the ones who will have to go eat somewhere other than the lunch room if other people have brought a PBJ.

                1. mags*

                  That was a counterpoint to overcaffinatedqueer’s argument that children getting free lunches are teased so therefore peanut bans are unfair.

                  And, no. The vast majority of peanut allergy sufferers absolutely do no need to get up and leave a lunch room if someone is eating peanuts.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  Or you can have an office that bars the use of all nut products or the introduction of nut products into the work site (I worked at one). There are non-stigmatizing ways to accommodate people who suffer life-threatening food allergies.

                3. Emerson*

                  I know most people don’t have to leave the room if someone else is eating PBJ, but if you are so allergic that you can’t be in the room, I’m sorry, but the onus is on you to eat somewhere else, not to dictate to everyone else what they can and can’t eat. And I especially reject the idea that people should be enforced to not eat it before coming to work. Telling me what I can and can not eat IN MY OWN HOME because of a special snowflakes allergy is taking things too far. I will eat all the Nutella and Peanut Butter Cups I want in my own home.

                  Of course, I believe smearing peanut butter on the desk of an allergic person is a horrible thing to do, but I don’t believe simply wanting to eat a sandwich in the lunch room makes you bad person.

                  There comes a point where you need to realise your allergy is really your problem, and it is not fair to impose your allergy and its conditions on other people.

                  I would push back on any work place that tried to police what I can and can not eat.

              3. a different Vicki*

                There are several reasons why allergic reactions seem more common than when we were growing up. One of those is that when I was a child, some of those peanut allergies weren’t reported as “so-and-so’s kid has a bad allergy, don’t give them peanut butter cookies,” but as “the neighbor’s three-year-old choked to death on a cookie,” and they might not even mention that it was a peanut butter cookie.

                Second, there’s some evidence (I don’t know how strong) that more sterile early-childhood environments increase the chance of allergies. “Go out and play” is useful advice even if the child is going to go sit on the lawn and read a book or play with a computer game, instead of doing the same thing in the living room.

                Third, epipens and other treatments mean people survive what would once have been fatal anaphylactic shock, and then a new bunch of people find out that they know someone with a serious allergy. The vaguely known coworker or neighbor who died of anaphylactic shock when you weren’t around is easier to forget than the coworker or neighbor who mentions having an epipen, and triple-checks whether there’s any shrimp in the fish stew.

              4. Observer*

                Actually, it’s NOT just “one” food. It’s a whole host of foods.If food is commercially fried, there is a good chance it was done in peanut oil. Peanuts, peanut better and peanut flour show up in a whole host of prepared foods, some of which no one would ever think of.

                This means that the burden is higher than generally realized. It also means that even well meaning parents who are willing to avoid peanuts are likely to make mistakes, because they don’t have the kind of “radar” that people with allergies develop.

        6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          When I was a high schooler, I had a teammate with a severe peanut allergy that triggered asthma and anaphylactic shock. She was sitting at the front of our full-sized school bus (we were traveling from a game) when a teammate sitting at least 10-15′ away at the back opened an energy bar made partially with peanuts (she didn’t know this at the time—if she did she wouldn’t have brought it). Within 45 seconds of opening that bar, we were pulled over on the side of the freeway waiting for an ambulance while the coach scrambled to find an epi pen.

          Peanut allergies can be extreme, and had I not witnessed someone turn blue, I would have been skeptical about a total peanut product ban. The underlying policy issue is not that low-income families require PB; it’s that we have not adequately addressed poverty (and by extension, it’s relationship to food insecurity).

          1. Observer*

            Actually your experience helps to explain why many doctors are leery of peanut bans. The team mate wasn’t being malicious or even especially careless. That energy bar would have been on the bus, ban or not. The real problem in your case is that both your teammate *and the coach* should have know exactly where the epi-pen was.

            But, you do have a point about poverty and food insecurity.

      2. Golden Lioness*

        Haha… and some days I am more allergic to certain people than others. Thanks for the smile! TGIF!!!

    3. Amber T*

      Whaaaat the f is wrong with some people?!?!?

      I love peanut butter. I enjoy a snack involving pb now and again, sometimes at work. If anyone said “hey, I’m allergic, could you eat that in the break room/not at your desk/not at work?” my immediate reaction would be “of course!” and then not have peanut butter at work. But noooo, there are some dumbasses out there who think “hmm, you’re imposing on my right to eat peanut butter at my desk, I’m going to smear it on yours because clearly this is an excellent idea.”

      Also, that boss sucks. Did peanut butter magically appear smeared under her desk? Clearly someone did it, and it’s probably the asshat who complained about about being asked to not eat peanut butter.

      1. Liane*

        A couple years ago we had a post–I don’t recall what–a commenter mentioned that she had a severe food allergy & had to deal several time with A–H–s threatening to slip her the allergen food. At least one of them only backed off because a cop overheard and explained it would result in serious criminal charges if Commenter wanted to press them.

        And the OP’s Boss is another big A–H–s

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I remember that–I saved that comment because it gave me an idea. She also said the one of the assholes was super-religious and tried to “save” a Buddhist student in the class (they were teachers).

    4. LiteralGirl*

      This is ridiculous, and I think the advice given kind of sucks. I’m sure Alison’s advice would be better. “Find another job” shouldn’t be the go-to answer.

    5. Mom*

      I just read this. One of the commenters was sure this was made up by the author. My immediate thought was you should read this blog and you would realize there are no ends to the actions of others.

    6. EP*

      I saw this this morning and my first thought was I wonder what Alison would say (though I do think that the person who answered gave good advice).

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        Where’s the dog friendly office advice? Allison did have a similar case but less of the throat closing up variety.

    7. Observer*

      The boss is a total idiot. The issue is not even whether or not other staff should eat peanuts in the office. The issue is that someone deliberately smeared peanut butter in a way that she would have no way to avoid it. I wonder if that could be considered assault. Even if it’s not legally assault, it is definitely an intentional attack on someone.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Given the nature of peanut allergies as potentially life-threatening, I absolutely would think this gets into legally being considered at least endangerment, if maybe not assault.

        1. Anonymous for this*

          I don’t see how it couldn’t. At the least you are attempting to do great bodily harm to someone, at the most you are trying kill them. I would have called the police if I were in the LW’s position.

      2. Mags*

        Assault or not, I’m am pretty positive that this is not legal. There have been children (seriously) arrested for similar acts in schools.

        1. Observer*

          Kids get arrested for things in school that no one would look at twice elsewhere, so that doesn’t really tell us much.

          1. Anonymous for this*

            It tells us that that this is obviously an illegal act. Schools don’t operate under different laws than the rest of the country.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It can be illegal/assault in the non-school context, but of course, this varies widely by state and is governed by state law.

    8. Hlyssande*

      That poor reader! I don’t understand the kind of person who thinks ‘this person has reported an allergy that’s possibly life-threatening – let’s expose them to the thing they’re allergic to!’

      It reminds me of when my former roommate had a coworker shove a bouquet of lilacs in her face after being told said roommate was allergic. Yes, she had an instant allergy/asthma attack and had to leave the office for the day.

      Deliberately exposing people to allergens when you’ve been informed of the allergy should be classified as assault, imho.

      2. Myrin*

        Inquiring mind needs to know: How did Horrible Coworker react when your former roommate had an impromptu attack?

        1. Alison for this*

          That it was All In Her Mind, I suspect. Based on the experience of my family members with severe allergies.

          2. RKB*

            Oh man. I have Crohn’s disease and after a bowel resection I can’t eat any fruits and vegetables anymore. The amount of relatives who have told me that’s all in my head… sure, aunt, I’ll eat the carrots, if you drive me to the emergency room for an obstruction!

    9. Seal*

      It would be one thing if the letter writer found peanut butter smeared on a table in the break room or even on top of her desk after telling a coworker about her peanut allergy. That’s far more easily explained as an honest mistake, like someone was eating their lunch and got peanut butter on the table. But for the letter writer to find it UNDER HER DESK? To me, that’s clearly a hostile act, regardless of whether or not someone explains it away as a prank.

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ugh, that advice columnist. I read her first few pieces when the Post hired her and was so incensed that I refuse to read anything else by her (terrible advice, even wrong about legal stuff, etc.). She was hired through a contest the Post did, and if I’m remembering correctly, she has no management experience; I think they just thought she was a good writer. I find the fact that they gave her that platform infuriating. (I have no comment on the article itself because I refuse to read it.)

      1. zora.dee*

        Oh yeah, I remember that contest, ugh, I was so annoyed about it in general, most of the candidates had little to no management experience at all.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Heh heh heh. I tossed my hat in the ring and I definitely had no management experience. I didn’t make it into the round of 10. lol.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I looked at the rules because I was wondering if I should enter it, and they banned entries from anyone who had previously been published on workplace issues. I thought that was interesting — seems like you would want people who had some sort of track record of expertise on the topic already, but they did not. I think they were specifically going for a “contest of your neighbors” kind of feel.

          1. animaniactoo*

            I’m pretty sure they were trying to replicate Carolyn Hax’ success as a “I’m going to give it to you straight, the way one of your friends would” start.

    11. Lizabeth*

      What research is out there about peanut allergies? And how did they get this extreme? Curious minds want to know…

      1. TL -*

        Allergies in general are more common than they were (perhaps because of understimulated immune systems, though this is not conclusive.). Furthermore, it was thought in the 80s/90s that avoiding common allergens when young would prevent allergies from developing so people followed that advice but more recent research suggests that early exposure is more likely to help prevent allergies and delayed exposure more likely to raise risk of allergies.

      2. Blurgle*

        There are two other issues.
        One is that back in the old days people died young all the time and nobody much paid attention to it. Most families in the early 20th century lost at least one child; go back a century before that and most families lost more children than they kept. (It was not at all unusual for a family in 17th century England to keep two children out of 16.) Because of this allergy deaths got lost in the midst – and of course they didn’t know what allergy was. They didn’t know what heart attacks were either, and they still existed.
        The other is that nowadays everything has 382 ingredients. A hundred years ago they didn’t aggressively shove cheap peanuts and soy and corn into everything.

          2. Kelly L.*

            Yep, I really think it’s both these things–people with deadly allergies died without anyone knowing why, and people in Ye Olde Days rarely ate things that didn’t come from their immediate surroundings, because there was no way to get it there. So people would be acclimated, over generations, to whatever food grew near them. Now, anybody can eat anything from anywhere, which is a major plus in a lot of ways (I would be so bored if I had to eat corn all day every day), but it does mean that people are trying foods that their ancestors never ate and didn’t acclimate to.

        2. TL -*

          Well, not quite. There’s been a raise in allergies in just the last 20-30 years that’s been unexplained and I don’t think they’ve conclusively proved that it can be attributed to everything.
          And under current knowledge, more exposure, especially from a young age, is more likely to make you less allergic.

      3. Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist*

        I know this sounds like one of those paranoid conspiracy theories, but some research seems to point to a correlation between food allergies and genetically modified organisms (GMOs). It is kind of a strange coincidence that many of the most common food allergens are also some of the most common GMOs.

        1. TL -*

          There hasn’t been any connection shown between GMOs and increase in food allergies and most of the research done suggests that would be extremely unlikely. And peanuts, tree nuts, wheat, shrimp, milk, fish, eggs, and shellfish – 7 of 8 allergens that make up 90% of American food allergies – aren’t commercially available GMOs (or GMOs at all.) GMO corn isn’t sold for human consumption; GMO soy is but soy allergies are usually outgrown by the age of 5.

          (Also, I just realized this but most of the big 8 allergens have been pretty available to a wide range of cultures for a long period of time.)

    12. Lemon Zinger*

      Absolutely horrifying. When I started my current job, I asked the supervisors if anyone in the office had declared a nut allergy before I felt okay bringing anything containing nuts to work. You simply cannot mess around with nut allergies! My brother watched a friend swell up and turn blue in elementary school because someone thought his peanut allergy “wasn’t that bad.”

      1. Natalie*

        As with any allergy, it would depend on the severity. It’s the level of reaction the person has that can potentially trigger ADA, not the specific allergen.

    15. Sarah*

      Auugh. I have a serious tree nut allergy – fortunately it’s only really triggered if I eat a nut, but this is horrible. One of this woman’s coworkers basically just attempted to murder her! Or to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t understand the full severity of her allergy, at least attempted to seriously harm her.

      Also, the “I don’t think you should be able to dictate what others eat” from the boss is nonsense. The problem isn’t even that the coworker was eating it anymore. It’s that he either actively went out of his way to go messily eat his lunch at HER desk, or, even worse and more likely, brought in a full jar of peanut butter, took some out, and intentionally smeared it on her desk. The fact that it was on the underside of her desk makes me really lean towards the second option.

    16. Cat steals keyboard*

      Oh my actual. I have a friend with such a severe nut allergy that this would be like attempted murder.

      1. Chaordic One*

        A couple of weeks ago there was a PBS mystery where a man (played by David Tenet) whose wife had been murdered discovered that the murderer had a seafood allergy. I don’t remember the exact details but I think he somehow tricked the murderer into eating something with seafood in it. Then when the murderer went into anaphylactic shock, he injected the murderer with an epipen (full of seafood juice or something like that) making the reaction much worse and the murderer died. A smart police woman figured it out, but let it go.

  3. Sunflower*

    We had an assistant(Mandy) start on our team about 4 months ago- prior to her, it was just my boss and me. Mandy interned in our dept but was on a different team. The position was created for her and our team has taken on much more work since we have an additional person. We sit next to each other while my boss is in a different city.

    Mandy drives me(and other people) nuts. She just doesn’t seem to care about the job. It’s clear to me she would much rather be on her old team and she took this job because she needed one- which in no way is a problem(I’m the last person to say you have to care about what you do) but you do have to care about doing a good job and making your team successful!
    She complains about pretty much everything and will push back on minor issues- she thinks she is above assignments and/or knows better than higher-ups. I’ve seen her continue to press on issues after a higher-up has said no. She doesn’t take much seriously. We both made the same mistake and while I scrambled to fix it and explain what happened, she laughed it off. She’s unprofessional in the way she speaks to clients, venues, other managers/people, etc. Other managers have complained about her to me- I am unsure if they have complained to my boss.

    I’m usually a MYOB/if this is a big enough issue, it will surface on it’s own but since my boss is not in our office, I wonder how much of this she is aware of. Mandy also came on during our slow time so she hasn’t really been thrown into the trenches of events yet. I have an in person check in with my boss and I know she is going to ask how things are going.

    Do I bring these things up or are these things that she probably already knows? To make matters more complicated, Mandy’s old boss is a director AKA my boss’s boss and seems to put Mandy on a pedestal. If I do bring them up, how do I do so without sounding like a bitter tattle tale?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Definitely bring it up with your boss. You could try something like “I don’t know if you know this already, but I wanted to give you a heads up that I’ve been having some problems working with Mandy because she has a habit of doing X. For example, Y and Z”

      That will make it clear you’re not whining about her, just flagging the issue.

    2. AshK434*

      I would definitely bring this up especially since other people are complaining to you about her. I would probably mention that these complaints are the impetus for you bringing this up at all, and then just state all of the issues you’ve noticed.

      1. designbot*

        Agreed–I’d say that I’ve been getting some negative feedback about Mandy and weren’t sure if your boss was hearing the same things or if the people coming to you were counting on you to be the conduit for that. Then offer up explanation for why she might be rubbing people the wrong way. This way it’s not you complaining about her, it’s you reporting an issue that’s acknowledged pretty widely.

    3. zora.dee*

      I agree you should bring it up. To avoid sounding bitter, try to frame things as how they are impacting you doing your job, not just “Mandy is rude” but “X department doens’t want to work with Mandy now, so everyone is coming to me, and I’m having trouble getting back to everyone in time.” And sit down and write out these examples ahead of time, so that you aren’t trying to do it on the fly. If I think about it ahead of time, I can be much less emotional than if I say it in the moment.

      But this is definitely something you should reinforce to your boss. But then leave it up to her to decide what to do, unfortunately, the politics might mean she can’t do anything. :o( Good luck!

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Wait, have you brought it up with her? I know that can be an uncomfortable conversation, but it seems strange to escalate your complaint without talking to Mandy about what she’s doing that’s annoying you.

  4. Audiophile*

    Happy Friday!!!!!

    Anyone familiar with that company that recruits for high paying jobs? I got a call about a position directly with them. I’m not sure whether it’s worth beginning the process.

    No news on the government jobs. So I guess no news is good news.

    1. Heather*

      Is it The Ladders? I haven’t heard good things about them, although I can’t recall the exact details. (Not super helpful, I know!)

      1. Random Lurker*

        I don’t know anything about working for the ladders, but have used it both to hire and to job search. It was not a good experience in either case – jobs aren’t vetted, candidates aren’t vetted. It’s a total waste of time for all parties involved. I question how much longer their business model can last.

    3. It happens*

      I do not pay for a subscription to the ladders, but somehow I get a daily email with positions that might be of interest to me. Given that most of their postings are just scraped from other sites a quick google search of the job title and city tends to lead to the actual source listing…

      1. Audiophile*

        I’ve never paid for a subscription and I don’t think I’ve ever applied for a job they’ve listed on behalf of a client.

        Since this would just be time spent on the phone, I may just do it.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The Ladders is terrible! Their whole business model is deceiving to job seekers (they claim to post only $100k+ jobs but then it came out that they don’t even screen jobs for salary; they’re just guessing, and often wrong). And they have a resume-writing services that’s absolutely terrible. Don’t work for them!

      1. Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist*

        I’m glad you posted this. I thought it was just me. Sometimes I worry that the whole world is out to get me.

        And sometimes there are people who really are out to get me.

  5. Good_Intentions*

    Working with college students

    Background: I’m an independent contractor with in a key election swing state working with public colleges and universities to ensure students have the resources they need to register and vote. To this end, I have hired students at some higher education institutions to assist with on-campus outreach.

    Issue: Undergraduate college students who lack the professional experience to follow through in a timely manner and don’t pay attention. This leads to me sending the same information to them three or four times. It’s not a great use of my time as the lone full-time staffer in the state. Keep in mind that they work in teams but don’t communicate among their team members.

    Question: How do I encourage college students to pay attention and follow through?

    Question: With such a short-term interaction with them, what are my options for dealing with their lack of professionalism?

    Question: Is there a tactful way to explain what I need from them (attention, follow-through, etc) without hurting their feelings or causing them to complain about me to my bosses?

    Please help me, AAM commenters! I am quickly losing patience with sending the same information to the same people up to four times.

    Thanks for any help you care to provide!

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’ve worked with college students in a similar manner before, and it’s tough.
      question 1) I found the most success explaining context to them – what happens if they don’t follow through, how does it impact you, the issue, the election, their peers, etc. You can also try giving them a carrot, like offering a recommendation if they do a great job or putting them in contact with your network.

      question 2) This might be something you need to discuss with whatever group you’re doing this work through. You can try just terminating the relationship. Some of them will shrug it off, but others will understand they were basically let go because they didn’t follow through. The best way to combat this is making sure they understand the commitment and the importance of following through on this ahead of time.

      question 3) I’ve found this is mostly about tone. If you’re angry or frustrated, that’s not a great way to handle delegating. It’s really about relationship building, and you’re effectively their boss for a volunteer position right? If you go into it with that knowledge and establish those roles it will go smoother.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Leatherwings:

        Thanks for the very thorough answer.

        I did want to clarify one point: The students actually responded to an ad for a paid fellowship for fall semester. The ad was posted late, drew little interest, so I phone screened and hired everyone who applied. This is a job of sorts (compensation is provided), but I am in no position to fire anyone. I really need warm bodies on these campuses.

        Your advice is really appreciated and on-point. Thanks so much!

      1. Good_Intentions*

        AVP:

        Yes, the students are paid fellow for fall semester.

        They responded to a job posting, participated in a phone screening and went through an hour-long training that explained their obligations.

      2. AVP*

        ah, I see your explanation above. Hmm.

        I know you said this isn’t the best used of limited time, but having worked in similar (but not political) circumstances with college students, I think you need to follow up, follow up, follow up. I did a project with students last year (at a really high-achieving, top-reputation, all-of-these-kids-are-geniuses type school) and found that if my email came in while they were looking at their email, they would respond right away and it would go great. If they happened to be in class when my email came in and they didn’t respond right away, they would lose it and just never find it again. I also got all of their cell #’s and texted, which I would ordinarily not do for work but I needed them to respond and that was what worked.

        I’m curious about your worry that they will complain to your boss if you give them constructive feedback – taking constructive criticism professionally and calmly is an important life skill that they’ll need to develop. Sure, sometimes younger people are still learning how to do that, but I think if they end up trying to circumvent your reasonable expectations, your boss should see through it, no? If you think she won’t or that she’s likely to be unhappy about it, then make sure you follow up on any conversations like that with a professional email to the student going over bullet points of what was discussed, to CYA.

        Regarding expectations – you may need to lay out your expectations and objectives for them in the beginning of the project more thoroughly than you would with more seasoned workers – ie., give them specific metrics and goals where otherwise you might let workers work them out on their own.

        1. Good_Intentions*

          AVP:

          Thanks for commiserating with me about your experiences working with college students. I appreciate knowing my experience is not isolated.

          With regard to my concern about their complaints, this stems from their monthly reflections sent to my boss and their end-of-service write-up that I won’t have the opportunity to see. These documents are their opportunity to express any frustration with how I’ve treated them or their displeasure with what they perceive as unfair or unnecessarily demanding instructions.

          I am just trying to go along to get along until the positions end in November. The next few weeks are going to be very busy with debate watches, voter registration events, special guest speakers and efforts to accommodate early voting.

          Again, I appreciate your insight. Thanks for taking time to share!

          1. AVP*

            Oh, geez, that sounds like a recipe for stress and I’m sorry you have to deal with it! Good luck. And text them incessantly :)

    3. College Career Counselor*

      “Issue: Undergraduate college students who lack the professional experience to follow through in a timely manner and don’t pay attention. This leads to me sending the same information to them three or four times. It’s not a great use of my time as the lone full-time staffer in the state. Keep in mind that they work in teams but don’t communicate among their team members.”

      Tell them that you don’t have the bandwidth to keep reminding them to do their jobs and what you need from them going forward. You’ll wind up with fewer people, but they might be more dedicated/committed.

      “Question: How do I encourage college students to pay attention and follow through?”
      In my experience, you can encourage all you want, but they’re going to do what they’re going to do. The students I work with think of themselves primarily as students and everything else is second (or third or whatever). You have no real recourse because you’re not grading them and this is a very short-term gig, nor are you recommending them for anything (you might tell them that the students who do their work well and in a timely fashion get glowing recommendations from you if they’re interested in continuing in the field).

      “Question: With such a short-term interaction with them, what are my options for dealing with their lack of professionalism?”
      Limited. See above. If these are indeed paying positions, then you need to set the expectations that they do their work in a timely fashion, otherwise they don’t get paid or get let go. Do you have time to hire other people?

      “Question: Is there a tactful way to explain what I need from them (attention, follow-through, etc) without hurting their feelings or causing them to complain about me to my bosses?”

      I think as long as you say, “these are the expectations in a very quick timeframe, and I need you to be able to do XYZ. If not, please let me know immediately, so that I may re-assign the work appropriately and thank you for your efforts so far.” I’d clear that with your bosses (do student complaints have any bearing on your continued employment?)

      “Please help me, AAM commenters! I am quickly losing patience with sending the same information to the same people up to four times.”

      They’re demonstrating that this work is not a priority for them at this time. I would look to re-assign to those students who are getting it done and cut the others loose from your payroll (you’re not getting any utility out of them anyway, and it’s costing you too much time to try to get them to comply).

      1. Good_Intentions*

        College Career Counselor:

        Wow, what a detailed answer to all of the questions I posted. Thank you!

        With regard to a couple of your comments, I need to plainly state that I cannot cut anyone loose. I need every warm body I can get. As it stands, I filled less than half of the available positions because of the late start date and competition from similar election-oriented organizations.

        I am scheduled to meet face-to-face with my most problematic teams next week, so I hope to clear the air and clearly establish guidelines for professional behavior at that time.

        Again, I appreciate the time and energy you put into sharing such detailed responses.

        Have a great Friday!

        1. FO*

          When I have done this work, standard practice was to e-mail the student in question every 1-2 hours. It takes more time then actually doing the work it’s self, but that is the only way make sure that expectations are clear.

    4. overeducated*

      Honestly, since this is such a short term commitment, I think you are just going to have to expect that you will have to resend stuff. And tell them EXACTLY what you need from them in very specific and measurable terms: “This job requires responses to my emails in 24 hours,” “I need you to schedule one weekly in-person meeting with your team members via email/Google Calendar/Doodle poll and send me a confirmation email by Wednesday with your meeting time,” etc. “I need you to pay more attention, get things the first time, not ask me to resend things” is not going to cut it – professors do that too, it’s part of people having schedules that don’t keep them in an office 9-5, things slip through. Specific action items and deadlines are better. But build in time in the expectation you’re going to have to hold their hands a lot.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Overeducated:

        Yes, I fully expect that I will have to continue sending out the same email four times with a very specific subject line, relative information in bold red font, and a set deadline also in red.

        To date, I have only encountered one completely egregious act of unprofessional behavior. It is as follows:

        The student fellows were asked to attend a webinar training to fully address their responsibilities, including all Google forms, weekly phone check-ins, writings, on-campus obligations. All but one student were able to attend. Among the attendees is a student who failed to listen during our initial phone conversation, failed to pay attention during the webinar, and sent me six (yes, really!) emails in five hours with questions she should have already known the answers to. I responded and referenced earlier situations when the answers were originally given, then asked if she had further inquiries. She wanted a follow-up phone call the next morning, so I called her and heard “No, we don’t need to talk. You answered all my questions yesterday.”

        Needless to write, my patience with this young woman–third year political science student–is wearing very thin. I’m meeting with her and her two teammates Wednesday evening. I need to create a strategy for engaging her and explaining expectations without being short.

        Wish me luck!

        1. Cat steals keyboard*

          Any way you can do in-person training instead? I think being so hands-off (e.g. a webinar rather than training directly with you) might not be working here.

          1. Good_Intentions*

            Cat steals keyboard:

            I have stopped by the largest campus on four occasions, including to conduct an abbreviated training.

            With the other campuses, I am attempting to schedule a convenient time for face-to-face interaction and for a regular phone check-in. The students are very obstructionist about confirming a time for such meetings. It’s to the point where I’ve called and left very direct messages.

            The headquarters of the organization are in D.C. and I’m based in the capital of the state. I can travel to the campuses for special occasions, but four hours of driving for a 30-minute check-in meeting cannot be justified.

        2. Jessica*

          As a professor, I would’ve responded to e-mails like that with “it’s in the syllabus” and not taught my students that they could skip looking at the syllabus by just giving them the answer. (To be less aggressive about it, I usually said, “please review page 3 of the syllabus where I discussed this topic and then let me know if you have any specific questions.”) Of course, the professor-student relationship is a little different than boss-worker, but I think identifying where the answers can be found, rather than answering the question, could still work.

          1. Honeybee*

            Yes, this was going to be my response as well. Send them one detailed e-mail with all of the information, and in the future if they ask again simply respond “It’s in the first email I sent you on [date]. Did you read that?” If they said they did but forgot, or didn’t read it at all, tell them to go find it.

            I’ve worked with college students as well and in my experience the way they learn is by setting firm boundaries and expectations and then holding to those closely. Of course, you also typically need the authority to cut them loose or ding their grade if they don’t follow them to make this work, so I’m not sure how useful it’ll be in your case until the day you can advertise this fellowship earlier and have a choice of students.

    5. irritable vowel*

      Do you have one or two higher-performing student workers that you can deputize to do some of this coordination work? Sometimes the higher-performing students are incentivized enough by being put in a position of greater responsibility that they can really take that and run with it. Ideally it would be great if you could pay them a little more to do this work (you mentioned you weren’t able to fill all the positions you needed so perhaps there’s some leftover money?).

      Students also sometimes respond better to their peers, and they also have their own preferred channels of communication that you might not be reaching them on. They just DO NOT look at e-mail, for example. So if that’s the only way you’re sending them the info, that’s why they’re not getting it/absorbing it. E-mail is for old people! A fellow student would text them, message them on Twitter/Instagram/whatever, and it would probably reach them better.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        irritable vowel:

        Good point about possibly texting, instead of using email.

        I am trying to have my communication with them be as unobtrusive as possible because all of the student fellows are full-time students taking up to five classes and involved in an average of three outside projects (leadership cohorts, an unpaid internship for a class, an on-campus job, etc.). The idea is to send communications with clear subject lines and bulleted info to the entire team and let them decide how to handle who takes the lead. For example, I sent out an email from my bosses asking for volunteers at an upcoming event, so I sent the entire team the information and let them decide who had the time to attend and represent the organization.

        When I meet with the teams next week, I will ask them specifically if they need assigned leaders and how they would like me to communicate with them. Text seems too casual for detailed work emails, but it may be the only way to consistently have timely responses from them.

        Thanks for your perspective. Have a great Friday and a restful weekend!

        1. Honeybee*

          Yeah, with a group of what sounds like semi-unmotivated college students, you may have to get more obtrusive and hands on with them. Text messages are preferred by younger folks because you receive them in the moment BUT you can choose to ignore them, too, until you can address them. Most kids don’t have email pings on their phone so they don’t know when they get a new email, but they sure know when they get a new text message (or message on Facebook messenger, or Snapchat, or tweet in some cases). You can install a program on your computer that will allow you to send text messages to phones directly from the computer, so they feel like e-mailing to you but show up as a text on their phone. (Skype will do this, as will Mighty Text and Pushbullet if you have an Android phone.)

          I also wouldn’t ask them if they need assigned leaders; I would give them assigned leaders and then see how that works out for them.

    6. MC*

      I would also recommend that you establish acknowledgement and follow up protocols. For example, I had a job in which people would make a request to me directly and I would put a team together to satisfy the request. There was no ticketing system or acknowledgement other than me emailing “Got your request, will process and let you know of any questions”. Have these guys acknowledge receipt of request/activity, confirm they have no questions then respond with updates. You could even send out a daily tracker that includes the deadline so that it’s simply part of your process. If you know it’s going to be a problem, be more proactive on your end. To get ahead of complaints you can say “Because some have had difficulty keeping track of their activities … blah blah blah” to call out that they’re behavior resulted in this “micromanagement”. And I don’t consider this approach micromanagement, more like aggressive tactical management.

    7. Marisol*

      What about *asking them* what they need for them to get the job done? For example, have an all-hands meeting where you lay out the problems you are facing, ask why they are occurring, and brainstorm solutions with them? It sounds like they don’t know what they are doing is causing a problem, and I get the impression that they might not have the skills or maturity to correct their behaviors on their own. So if you were to just say, “make sure you respond to me within 24 hours” they might not have the ability to think through why they aren’t able to do that without some constructive prodding. But a brainstorming session might reveal they they all have morning classes and are best able to respond to your emails in the afternoon, to give a random example. Regarding sending the same info over and over, they probably don’t have any sort of email filing system, but might not be able to articulate that, or come to a solution for creating one without help from you or from the group.

      I wouldn’t worry about tact; as long as you’re not yelling at them or being otherwise abusive, there shouldn’t be a problem with being direct, including being direct about how frustrated or discouraged you feel: “guys, I’m going to be frank with you. I really need your help, and it is incredibly discouraging to have to waste time repeating myself. We only have a few months to accomplish our mission and I want to make every moment count. So I need your input; I need to find out from you what is preventing you from keeping track of the info I send you, and how we can overcome this problem.”

      Since you don’t have much leverage–can’t fire them or motivate them in ways traditionally used in the workplace–I think the only source of motivation, and really the best source in any work context, is give them some “creative control” of their process and show them the impact of their actions. Show how they fit into the big scheme of things, show how what they do fits into the overall workflow, so they know they are making a meaningful difference rather than just…processing widgets. That will give them a sense that they have skin in the game. I think if you open the dialogue up, you should get lots of creative solutions as well as greater engagement.

      Lastly, read the book, How To Talk so Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will talk. It’s a classic on parenting, a good read, and will probably give you some insight.

      Hope that helps.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Marisol:

        Your suggested wording with addressing the teams strikes just the perfect tone. Thanks for providing a wonderful framework for me to adapt during next week’s face-to-face and telephone meetings.

        Most of the students with whom I’m working are juniors or seniors who have had internships and jobs in the past, so I took for granted they would have the critical thinking and planning skills to manage their responsibilities. Both the job ad and the phone screening process directly explain that the position requires self-starters who can manage their time and execute clear communication with me, their teammates, faculty and staff on campus, and the students they’re trying to reach through their respective events/activities.

        In hindsight, I can see how they may have overestimated their skills or underestimated the difficulties in balancing school, social life, other time commitments with this particular job.

        Thanks so much for taking time to share your ideas! They have been very helpful.

        1. Marisol*

          Happy to help! Another possibility that occur to me, since you mention their qualifications, is that they *do* have the skill sets, but are being little shits and choosing to underperform. (Is it possible that you are a soft touch, and squeamish about making your expectations clear?) In this case I would frame it in my mind as holding them accountable, but either way, making your expectations explicit and asking how *they* want to solve the problem would be a good start for addressing it.

    8. zora.dee*

      I’m gonna be honest, and I feel a little bad about this because you have said very sweet things to me on here in the past, but I hope it will help a little.

      You have kind of been set up to fail here.

      I have spent many years working in campaigns/advocacy, and everything you wrote is extremely common with part-time student employees. Which is why good, functional organizations would not depend on them as much as yours is.

      You are being expected to cover way too much geography with not anywhere near enough resources. In successful campaigns, one full-time paid staffer would have campuses within a reasonable driving distances, and that person would be physically on-site for any activity or event to supervise and make it happen. There’s only so much you can expect part-time students to do when they have school work to do, and really they should be compensated even for 10 minutes of responding to emails during the day, etc. Getting them to be self-directed like this is something only a tiny fraction of students could do.

      I realize this sounds super defeatist, and you have this job right now, so you need to make it work, and me telling you that it sucks isn’t super helpful. But what I’m hoping it will do is help you realize that NONE of this is a failure of you and your skills. This is an extremely difficult, almost impossible bind you are in. So, my advice about what you can do: 1 is to manage your expectations a little more about what you are going to be able to accomplish by Nov 8. And do what you can do, craft clear, short emails, get students on the phone as often as you can rather than relying on email, set the parameters for a shift of signature gathering and be very direct that this is important to their job and you need them to follow through. And then let it go. Because what happens will happen, and a lot of the time people are going to flake, and you might not get the numbers your boss wants. And you are going to have to let the disappointment roll off your back and start over the next day.

      I would get used to the idea now, that the organization might not be very happy with their numbers on Nov 7, but they are honestly not giving you the support or resources necessary to make this happen, and they are the ones responsible for the delays in getting everything set up in the first place that put you behind schedule, so that is their own fault. And you should be proud that you continued to work as hard as you could to make it happen, but also, when it’s time to go to bed at night, you need to take some deep breaths, and leave it at work so you can sleep. Be careful not to get completely burned out, because then you will be useless, and be careful not to take any of this personally. I am not impressed with this organization and I think they are taking advantage of your work ethic and dedication to the cause.

      Anyway, that is insanely long, and if any of it doesn’t seem right to you, you can feel free to ignore it, this is just my impression based on what you’ve been telling us before. But I’ve seen lots of poorly run organizations burn out amazing activists over the years, and I don’t want to see it happen to you. Good luck, and thank you for working so hard to make the world a better place!!

  6. Folklorist*

    Hi everyone! I need help. I have a very good friend who has issues with chronic health problems (chronic migraines, chronic fatigue, previous bouts with cancer) and mental heath issues (depression and anxiety). She is smart, funny, and personable; she learns quickly and is capable of working at a much higher level than the jobs she’s able to get.

    Because of her issues, she’s never been able to really hold down a job, so then she gets down, and then she can only get work at flaky start-ups or toxic environments that seem great at first and then let her go because they’re disorganized, and her health gets worse because of the horrible situations and lack of insurance/money to survive, and the cycle goes on. She really needs a semi-flexible teleworking situation with good insurance and someone to give her a chance. She just got let go again and is really in despair.

    I was in a similar situation (spiral of depression and joblessness) before I found my company, which has been wonderful to me and helped me flourish (I just got my first-ever promotion and raise!). A job opening came up here that she would be qualified for–we have wonderful health insurance and a generous telework policy (in fact, they’re downgrading the office space, so they encourage mostly telework).

    Do I recommend her for this? I don’t know what to do–if it turns out that her previous firings weren’t all because of a string of crappy companies and it turns out that she’s a terrible employee, I’m afraid that it will come back to me. Additionally, I worry about mixing friends and the workplace. I’ve also referred a couple of friends here in the past and they weren’t qualified–I’m afraid that HR just rolls my eyes whenever I suggest someone now.

    It all just seems like a terrible situation. If I were in my friend’s shoes, I would be desperate for them to refer me, but I don’t know if both our reputations will suffer and I’ll destroy the friendship if it doesn’t end up working out.

    Thank you so much for any insight you may provide!

    1. fposte*

      If you don’t know her actual work well enough to know if her work problems aren’t just health, I wouldn’t give her a recommendation. I know that wouldn’t feel great, but I just wouldn’t feel like I could give a strong recommendation based on solely a friendship with the possibility of adverse work information there.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      I wouldn’t recommend her, unfortunately. Either she’s flaking out of her jobs for other reasons or her health really is that bad… And I don’t think you should waste your remaining HR goodwill on a situation where you know the job history isn’t great. I might feel differently if you hadn’t been burned by recs before.

    3. Manders*

      Oof, this is a tough question. I did once refer a friend with a similar history to a position at my workplace–and then I found out after she was hired that she hasn’t been fully honest about her previous experiences, and her repeated firings and overall spotty job history kinda were her fault. It ended up reflecting pretty badly on me.

      If you won’t have to work closely with the person in this position, then maybe it would be a good idea to encourage her to apply, but hold off on offering to refer her. Don’t stake your reputation on this, especially if you think HR already doubts your judgement about your friends’ qualifications.

    4. Amber T*

      So your two questions – what if your friend ends up not being a good employee, and how will working with a friend turn out.

      1 – You can refer your friend without necessarily vouching for them. You can talk to the hiring manager and say “I know someone who is look for a new opportunity and has x, y, and z skills.” Here’s an opening, here’s a person who, on paper, might have the qualifications to fill it, and that’s all you need! I wouldn’t mention any health issues to the hiring manager – that’s up to her.

      2 – As for working with your friend… there’s no definitive answer for that. How closely would your roles work together? How close would you sit? Would you report to the same person? If she starts complaining about your manager or Joe in purchasing, can you keep it professional? The answer may be yes and that’s great! But it may be no and that’s okay too.

      You also say you’ve recommended friends before that didn’t work out. When you say they weren’t qualified, do you mean that their skills didn’t match up with the job posting? Or did they make it to the interviews and there just happened to be others who were a better fit?

      If your friends skills don’t match 80% with the job posting, or if you think you’ve recommended too many people who haven’t been a good match (not if there were just other people who may have fit better), I wouldn’t recommend your friend. You sound like a really caring friend and it’s great that you want to help her, but mixing your personal and professional lives together may not be for the best.

      1. Folklorist*

        Good questions! Regarding the two friends I referred, the first one actually ended up being a great fit. She got to the offer stage and then suddenly pulled out and decided to move out-of-state. The second had a lot of great transferable skills and my coworker (the hiring manager) was desperate to hire quickly, so she said to send her along–but my friend didn’t get chosen for an interview.

        I guess the biggest question for this friend is that, last time she was looking for a job, this position opened and she applied, and asked me to vouch for her to the hiring manager. It’s open again and she’s jobless again, so I don’t know if I should tell her about the opening or vouch for her if she finds it on her own. (Or just say, “I can’t vouch for your work, but will certainly pass your materials along!”)

        1. Amber T*

          Mehhh…. as her friend you can’t really vouch for her work abilities (unless you have worked with her in the past, but even then you can still be seen as biased). What happened the last time she applied? If she was interviewed and may have been a good fit, then maybe pass along her credentials, but if she didn’t make it to the interview stage I wouldn’t.

      2. Rat Racer*

        Yes – second this: you can be the best help to your friend (assuming you cannot advocate for her work) by helping her cut through the red tape of the hiring process and making sure her resume is seen by the right people. That way, you are helping her without risking your reputation.

        1. Rat Racer*

          Oh – I did not read your comment closely enough. It looks like you have already taken those first initial steps and that to get your friend’s foot in the door, you would have to do something more like advocacy. Sorry for skimming to quickly./

          1. Folklorist*

            Oh, no–it’s OK. The last time she applied, she did it right after they had already hired someone for the position, but it hadn’t been taken off the site yet. And then she immediately got a job with the toxic place that just let her go, so it was a moot point all around. I didn’t get involved at all.

    5. Lluviata*

      I agree with Manders. Tell her about the position and encourage her to apply, but don’t offer to be a reference for her. If the hiring manager asks, tell them that she’s your friend but you haven’t worked with her so you can’t give any feedback on her work. If your friend asks, tell her that since you haven’t worked with her you wouldn’t be a good reference.

    6. Happy Lurker*

      Sorry to jump on the bandwagon of don’t do it but…don’t. Just continue to be her friend. Good luck.

    7. designbot*

      Vouch for her personal qualities–smart, funny, whatever is accurate for her. The thing I tend to say is “She’s someone you want to have a drink with after work, but I’ll let you assess the work itself and see if there’s a fit.”

    8. E*

      I agree with the other commentors. Don’t recommend her, but tell her about the opening and that you can’t recommend her because you haven’t worked with her before but that it sounds like a good fit for her needs.

    9. Kore*

      Oof, this is a tough one. I’m wondering about this with one of my friends, too – she’s smart, a great person, and is really loyal and dedicated, but her health issues are severe. She usually ends up having 2-3 surgeries per year for one thing or another (cancer, chronic issues, etc) and as such holding down a job is really hard for her, but she’s going to have to look soon because her place of work that gave her a lot of freedom (seasonal position, flexible leave) is closing.

    10. harryv*

      I would recommend her. Just per yourself in her shoes. Someone gave you a chance and you have flourished. Now you are in position where you can help her. It’s not up to you to hire. Leave that to the recruiting process. But to block her from the get go and be judgemental is wrong imo.

    11. Marisol*

      Even if her previous firings were because of a string of crappy companies, there is a judgement issue here–why did she take employment at a string of crappy companies? Bad things happen to good people, but this is more than just coincidence. Personally, I would not stick my neck out. I would feel bad for my friend’s situation, but not bad that I wasn’t willing to sabotage my own well-being by recommending her to my company. You could mention the opening to your friend if it is a public job posting, and let her handle applying, but not vouch for her to HR. But I probably wouldn’t do that. Your friend is a little lost and another firing is surely inevitable.

      It sounds to me like she might have ADHD. My psychiatrist Jory Goodman wrote a book about the cluster of symptoms including migraines, depression, and anxiety that accompany adhd. I can’t remember the name of the book…I think it’s called “It IS All In Your Head.” There is also a book by John Ratey that has an excellent diagnostic list. And people with adhd are usually bright and creative, yet chronic underachievers. At any rate, she needs professional help for her physical and mental issues–maybe you could help her find some free clinics to address that, which would hopefully lead to more stability in her work life.

    12. Mephyle*

      I would tell what you know, and also make it clear that you aren’t vouching for what you don’t know.
      Tell them that in your opinion she is intelligent, learns quickly and is personable.
      Tell them also that you can’t speak to her ability to do the job because you have never worked with her.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      After being burned a few times, I very seldom recommend people.

      What I would do here is tell her there is an opening, but you feel you are not in a position to grease the path for her, as far as putting in a recommendation. However tell her that you would be happy to answer questions where you can and you would be happy to give her some pointers if she gets an interview.

      For the most part people are amazing, they will understand that we can’t do x for them and be happy with the y and z that we actually do. The important part is to tell her upfront what you are offering help with, that way she has no surprises.

    14. Honeybee*

      I know you really want to help your friend find a job, but I think you can lend your support to her in other ways. You can even encourage her to apply to the job, but don’t refer her.

      Ideally, when you refer someone to a job, it’s because you think they would be a great fit for the actual job that’s posted – not because you want them to enjoy all the benefits that your workplace offers. You want to be able to say to the hiring manager, “I think Ayesha would be a great fit for this job for X reasons.” And as you’ve noticed, referring people who aren’t a good fit can diminish your credibility and hamper your ability to recommend actual good fits later on, and help people.

      If you really can’t be sure whether your friend is a good employee, then don’t refer her. But you can keep sending her ads, help her polish her resume, be a sounding board, etc.

  7. Robbie*

    Summary: I need to get my super super busy boss to discussing ADA accommodations with me.

    I have a condition that’s covered by the ADA and I’ve been granted accommodations at my old jobs. I’ve been with this business for about six months and have gotten good performance reviews over that time. Despite that it’s become obvious to me that I’ll need some sort of accommodation to keep doing my best.

    I had a meeting with my boss to tell him about my condition and suggest an accommodation. At first he seemed sympathetic, but when I brought up possibly working from home so i could get to my medical appointments more easily, he told me that wasn’t possible because he was afraid that I would start misusing it and my productivity would go down.

    I know my company allows people to work remotely, and there aren’t any restrictions on who can or who can’t in any of our policy handbooks. Even if he absolutely won’t allow that, I’m fine with requesting a different accommodation. I have tried to get him to talk to me about it again but he’s always said that he’s busy and that I should go home if I don’t feel well.

    I don’t think he’s malicious, I think he’s genuinely extremely busy and doesn’t realize what the law says (he’s new to the USA).

    My condition is flaring up and I’m sure someone will note that my performance has declined recently. So it’s very important that I get my boss to sit down and talk to me about accommodations.

    I’ve heard some horror stories about this company’s HR department, so I’m a little worried about going to them. But it seems like my options are HR or sending out the type of email that makes it very clear that I’m going to get a lawyer (“per our discussion on this date, I requested accommodations for my condition which you rejected. My condition is covered under the ADA, blah blah…”)

    1. Leatherwings*

      Oooh don’t send that email unless it’s an absolute last resort. That will escalate the situation immediately.

      Go back to your boss and say something like “I’m under the impression that the ADA requires employers by law to provide reasonable accommodations like X and X. If working from home truly isn’t possible, I think we’ll need to work out some other accommodations. I could speak to HR and see what they could suggest” and see what he says.

      Definitely go to HR – they’ll know the law on this, and it sounds like your boss doesn’t. Assume they’ll be reasonable and competent unless they demonstrate otherwise.

      1. Robbie*

        I would absolutely NEVER send an email like that unless I was certain I was about to be fired and was desperate for evidence for an unemployment case, to negotiate severance or a reference or something like that. I am just not very good at managing the middle ground between jerk and doormat.

        I am also very anxious (I have been in treatment for severe anxiety and panic disorders for a few years now) that my requesting accommodation will be held against me. That leads to some analysis paralysis/indecision here. I work at a tech company with a startup feel and I’m very worried that I will be seen as incompetent.

    2. Retail HR Guy*

      Threatening your employer at this point is overkill and is not going to go over well with anyone. At least try to be more firm about setting a meeting with your boss to go over this, and go to HR (nicely) if that doesn’t work. Maybe HR is horrible, but you won’t know until you try, and going to Defcon 2 before even attempting to speak with HR or upper management about it (especially when you reason to suspect your supervisor is unaware of ADA regs) wouldn’t be acting in good faith.

      1. Robbie*

        I’m sorry… the letter was meant to be an example of what I WOULDN’T do! To come clean, I have had some bad experiences with disclosing my disability in the past but I’m very aware of the need to be polite and flexible with these conversations.

    3. Amber T*

      Ditto to not contacting the lawyer yet – you’re not at that place. Besides, the lawyer will probably tell you you need to attempt more conversation with your boss and HR before being able to take any legal action.

      I like what Leatherwings suggested, but I’d do it in an email (written proof). I’d end the email asking for a time in the next few days to sit down and discuss the accommodations, and even provide times and dates (can we sit down Tuesday at 3 or Wednesday morning?). If it’s ignored, or if he says he’s too busy, then go to HR.

      If your boss remains “too busy,” (and remember, part of his job is managing you, including helping you with your needs) and HR ends up being unhelpful, then it would time to contact a lawyer (and probably start looking for new work).

    4. Golden Lioness*

      If your boss is truly not malicious you’re better off to continue your communications with therm.

      I suggest you pick an open time on their calendar and send them a meeting request. Keep it to 30 min so it’s not intrusive and get bullet points with the main issues and the accommodations you would need.

      Additionally, you mentioned working from home, I understand he said know to a fully remote position, but how about working gradually towards it? just ask for 1 day a week you can do that, and once you’ve proven yourself, ask him to give you another one till you have reached a comfortable compromise. Who knows, maybe having just 2 remote days could work, especially if that’s enough to combine whatever medical appointments you need.

      2. Robbie*

        I don’t have any reason to think my boss doesn’t like me. But at my last job I “coincidentally” got put on a PIP and had a lot of responsibilities taken away from me right after I disclosed. So I adopt a once bitten, twice shy approach.

        I’m going to set up a meeting with him and make a bunch of suggestions. I think I may need to escalate this to HR if he seems unwilling to do any form of accommodation but I’m very scared to do that. And I don’t even know how likely that is (he did seem a little brusque in dismissing it before — and I wasn’t proposing I work completely or even frequently remotely, and we do have people in 100% remote positions).

        1. Golden Lioness*

          People that don’t need accommodations may be short sighted sometimes. You mentioned your boss is super busy, so this may be a case of him hoping this just goes away. Once he realizes this is a serious problem for you, hopefully he will work with you.

          And I hear you on the once bitten feeling. After my boss from hell my PTSD was so bad that every time my new boss called me into his office I would automatically shake and think “Oh, God, what is wrong now!” It took a while for me to react normally again. Good luck!

    5. Chriama*

      I think you need to tell your boss this needs to be resolved, not ask him. “Hey boss, I’m actually covered by the law here. We need to find time to discuss accommodations for my condition/ When are you available?”

    6. BRR*

      Sort of echoing others. I’d just say you need to sit down to discuss accommodations. I’d have several suggestions ready but give him a second to start. You might have to rope in HR. This is what they do and even a bad HR department should be concerned about ADA and retaliation.

    7. Robbie*

      Update for the handful of people who may check up in the weekend open thread on Monday: I had another conversation with the boss where I suggested a couple of things like moving my desk (open floor plan so I know I can’t request an office) or altered hours/remote work when I need to put in overtime but have a doctor’s appointment (we work with overseas teams so we do need to have some flexibility already) and they’ve been turned down becaus he wants to avoid the appearance of favoritism. I wanted to say that it’s part of his job as a manager to handle that and tell my colleagues that there’s a good reason that I get XYZ treatment but I left it at “let’s talk with HR and see what they advise, this is more in their speciality than ours.” He was cool with that and said hrd prefer that because he isn’t an expert on these things so I am hopeful we can figure something out.

      I work at a big established company but the company is trying to rebrand itself as a young hip tech startup type of place. They switched to an open office plan in my office and management has started talking a lot about how employees need to “lean in” and “show hustle” and I am a little worried that this may factor in how I’m treated. I hope not though.

  8. 42*

    This morning I saw an excellent question posted on a website I follow:

    “What is the most honest thing you said in an interview which resulted in you not getting the job?”

    (*This is assuming that THAT was the actual reason you weren’t hired of course.)

    Does anyone here have an answer to that?

    1. Zana*

      Good question!

      My answer would probably have to be being a little too honest about admitting that I don’t see my future in the industry. But it comes with the territory of being a masters student applying for things such as retail and coffee shops as part time work to support my studies.

      (But at the same time, I feel like those sort of jobs have to expect turn over with part time/casual employees?).

    2. Applesauced*

      Q – “Are you afraid of heights?”
      A – “Uh… only if the fall would kill me”
      I was a new grad and thought this was a weird joke… It was at an architecture firm who does facade restoration – requiring staff to go out on scaffolding and look at the building. I don’t know if that answer cost me the job, but I did not get an offer.

    3. Way over there*

      An interview asked me if I was comfortable working with aggressive people. My honest *BLEEP* NO may have costed me the job, but definitely saved me the tears

      1. Golden Lioness*

        Ugh! Yes, I learned to pay attention to those questions… they tell you a lot about the people you’ll be working with. Every single time the reason why the question was asked became apparent quite quickly!

    4. kylo ren*

      During a job interview at Old Navy, the manager asked about how I felt about selling credit cards. Naive teenager me replied that I thought that was awkward and kind of crappy to do to people. Unsurprisingly, I didn’t get the job.
      I still think it’s a crappy thing to do, but I digress.

      2. Alice Ulf*

        I agree with you 100%. Also I just got to imagine Kylo Ren suffering through a job at Old Navy, which brightened my entire day. :D

    6. Slate*

      I don’t know for sure that this wasn’t the reason I didn’t get hired, but:

      When I was in college, I had an interview for an internship with the AP. I was a Magazine Journalism major. At that time, I had a part-time job designing newspaper pages back at my hometown newspaper on the weekends. And the internship would have been related to newspaper reporting.

      The interviewer looked at my resume, actually sneered at me, and said, “You’re studying magazine journalism, you’re designing newspaper pages and you want to intern in newspaper reporting. You’re all over the place. What are you even doing?” And my response was, “Well, I don’t think gaining experience in different aspects of the industry is a bad thing.”

      It went downhill from there. He was in a foul mood, and he just was not happy with me. I guess he felt like you should only do ONE THING FOREVER, I dunno. At the end, he gave me an AP-branded lanyard and tin of mints, which I guess they were handing out to every one who interviewed, and I looked at him and said, in a very deadpan voice, “Wow, it’s just like Christmas.”

      That may have been why I didn’t get it, on second thought. :D

      1. ThatGirl*

        As a former newspaper journalist who dabbled in reporting, photography/photo editor and magazine internships before settling on copy editor/page designer, that is super rude and obnoxious. College and internships are all about trying out different things.

      2. literateliz*

        Because life as a journalism student is just chock-full of options and opportunities that allow you to narrow your career interests to a laser focus!*

        Anyway, you are my hero for that kiss-off. OMG. Love it.

        *sarcasm may not apply depending on when and where you graduated… I finished my own magazine journalism degree in 2009 (I know, poor life decisions), so I’m rolling my eyes HARD at this dude.

        1. Slate*

          I graduated with that degree in 2003, worked as a newspaper reporter for one year and promptly burnt out so hard that I fled, never to return to journalism!

          This is what happens when your goal in life is to write fluff pieces about celebrities (honestly what I wanted to do with my life) and then your first writing gig is as a general assignment reporter covering teenagers dying in car crashes and a rash of animal abuse cases.

      3. Amadeo*

        Reminds me a bit of a veterinarian I interviewed with when I was a tech. First mistake was asking for a wage I could live on (“Oh, you’ll not get that amount in this area.”) the second was going “Look, if the cat is fractious enough that I have to use two towels and a pair of gauntlets just to get it out of the cage I’m certainly not going to try to pill the damn thing with no one in the clinic around to help me.” after he asked me what I’d do if I had to pill an angry cat during an evening in the clinic by myself.

        Yeah, I think we were both glad to leave that interview and see the back of each other.

        1. Amadeo*

          Well, asked me what I’d do, and kept asking me what I’d do if that didn’t work. This was a chain of questioning. “And if that doesn’t work? And if that doesn’t work? And if that doesn’t work?”

      4. Not So NewReader*

        “Well if the ghosts are bothering you so much, then you need to ask them to leave.”

        “But we like our ghosts.”

        They asked ME to leave.

        Yes, this actually happened.

    7. Kat*

      I mentioned having a young baby once in an interview for what would have been an amazing job. In retrospect I know I should not have done so, but nor should the hiring manager have asked. It was in the bag until I mentioned my son. I’m still bitter about it especially knowing that him asking me that question (and then using the answer against me) was illegal.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Oh, I did that once too! I asked about whether the job in question would be the type where I could leave at 5:30 but then logon later at night to finish remaining work because I had two small children and blah blah blah. Baaaad move. When the hiring manager called me to tell me that I didn’t get the job (it was an internal position) she said that although she thought I was highly qualified, she thought that the stresses of the job might keep me from my family. Shot myself in the foot there.

    8. AndersonDarling*

      “We deal with confidential information and we need someone who does not talk about our clients. Does that sound like you?”
      “I understand confidentiality because of my work with X, Y, and Z. But I’m always open to office gossip.”

      I’m not even the gossipy type! I still don’t know why I said it!

      2. Audiophile*

        I love it!

        “You can count on me to spread the office gossip. I promise this won’t be like the telephone game when we were kids.”

      4. Hee Haw Honey*

        Oh, we’re not ones to go ’round spreadin’ rumors.
        No, really, we’re just not the gossipy kind.
        You’ll never hear one of us repeating gossip,
        so you’d better be sure and listen close the first time.

    9. PK*

      It wasn’t my gaffe but an interview I was sitting in on for an entry level user support position. I don’t remember the exact question but the interviewee’s answer was “I hate customer service and customers. They are stupid and I don’t want to deal with them.”

      Needless to say for a position that was based around giving support to users, we didn’t feel comfortable with moving forward. He seemed one bad call from snapping already.

      1. Hellanon*

        Similarly, I was interviewing someone for a teaching job (vocational-type school) and knew the owners of the business where she was currently working. I asked her why she was leaving and she said a) the owners were very supportive of her decision to leave and b) she was leaving because she felt that she got no respect in retail.

        Oh honey, you’re going to love teaching, I thought, and recommended we not hire her…

    10. Mustache Cat*

      Someone asked me what the most stressful situation I had ever faced in a workplace was. I answered honestly that one of my visitors when I worked as a tour guide tried to put me in a headlock as a “joke”; I escaped the headlock, stood him up against the wall and ripped him a verbal new one in front of his entire family.

      So….I did not get that offer.

    11. Random Lurker*

      Mine is cringe worthy, but everything happens for a reason. I was working for the most toxic of toxic bosses and wanted out. I made the mistake of running away instead of running to an opportunity. They asked me my honest assessment of my boss, and if I were to give him one piece of advice, what would it be? Classic trap question, but battered and beaten me took the bait and let loose a stream of verbal vomit. Needless to say, I didn’t get the job.

      It was a blessing in disguise because the job was not a good fit. Plus, it was EXTREMELY cathartic. I never have felt the need to air dirty laundry since. But I still cringe when I think about it at all.

      1. Golden Lioness*

        I’m so sorry! I had to bite my tongue hard when I was job searching after “the boss from hell”

        This reminds me of the scene in Liar Liar when the female partners take Jim Carey to the board room and ask sweet as honey, “tell us, what do you think of Big Boss?”. That scene always makes me laugh.

    12. Mints*

      I was interviewing for a Sales job during my senior semester at college, and the guy asked about Sales experience. I said something that my previous roles hadn’t been Sales focused. He (super nice and understanding) asked like “What about times you were persuading someone, or in a class setting?” And I was pretty much like “I’m not usually drawn to that. I give people information and let them decide.”
      Yikes. I still cringe. I also don’t know why I went to that interview. Practice, I guess?

    13. Fabulous*

      I was asked in a recent interview to “Tell me about a time where you didn’t get along with another co-worker.”

      Now, I’ve gotten along with everyone I’ve worked with, so I really didn’t have an example for him. EXCEPT… there was one time in one of my first jobs in Chicago where a co-worker verbally attacked me. Background: I was the only white person in a predominately black/hispanic workplace. This shouldn’t matter, but it’s relevant in this situation because of the nature of the business. I worked for a check cashing and payday loan store headquarters – not the best characters generally use the business, and not the best characters work for the business. And I was in the Collections department, so even more-so. Basically, my office was, at times, a semi-professional version of the ghetto. Like I said – first real job in the big city. Anyways I started telling this story how this girl got in my face and started yelling at me for something stupidly petty, and I quickly realized the dynamic in the office where I was interviewing was very similar ethnicity-wise as this job I was talking about. I realized I couldn’t give any background to the story without sounding super racist, so I tried to backtrack significantly to avoid words identifying race or “ghetto-ness” (not sure how else to put that delicately…) MOST AWKWARD INTERVIEW QUESTION EVER. Oh, and their follow-up question, “How did you resolve that situation?” Um… I didn’t. I was cornered in my cubicle and could only wait until she stopped screaming in my face because I didn’t want to start a full-out fight. Managers didn’t intervene either, which only helped the situation (NOT!) Yeah, interview ended shortly after that story.

      1. Fabulous*

        Btw, the argument was about spoiled milk. Because I said I usually smell the milk before using it if there’s any question about its freshness. She forgot to smell her milk before eating a bowl of cereal and smelled it afterward. The milk had gone bad. And I wasn’t even talking to her.

        2. Rookie Biz Chick*

          There’s so not a need to set the ‘background’ with the racial make-up of your coworkers or clients. Your statements are filled with inherent biases, which sound absolutely racist. I’m thinking you were with a white interviewer and perhaps of the assumption that the white folks could commiserate and have sympathy for your role in this story as you told it, like an us -versus-them-can-you-believe-it kind of thing. It’s thoroughly gross.

          I’m so hoping the interview ended because the interviewer saw the racist commentary for what it was and wanted no part of it in their company.

          1. Oxford Comma*

            Agreed–I cringed through this. The behavior she described could definitely be described as unprofessional without taking about the racial makeup of her cohort. It seemed as though she was conflating unprofessional with black, brown, and those in lower sock-economic strata which is, full stop, racist and classist.

      2. Trig*

        Guh that is my worst question. I get along with people really well! In my interview for my internship I floated something about the guy I played rec sports with almost getting in a fight every other game, and how we just tried to calm him down and express our distaste with his behaviour. I didn’t really do anything that had any outcomes (except the time I told him that calling another player a whore was entirely unacceptable, the outcome of which was that he told me I can’t tell him what to say and he can say whatever he wants), so it’s not a great example.

        Next time I’m job searching I’ll probably have to invent a plausible low-key “I disagreed about the way a colleague was doing a thing, I explained my side, they explained theirs, so we compromised and got the job done” story. I don’t like making stuff up, but I genuinely don’t have any workplace conflict! My workplace is a great place and pretty much friction-free!

      3. AnitaJ*

        “I tried to backtrack significantly to avoid words identifying race or “ghetto-ness” (not sure how else to put that delicately…)”

        You don’t. There’s no possible way to use the word ‘ghetto’ in a delicate way. I’m floored by this entire statement. I mean, are you kidding me?

      4. N.J.*

        Your story is funny, especially since she should have known better and smelled the spoiled milk. I’m curious why the race of your coworkers would need to come into the discussion at all though? I’ve worked in unprofessional workplaces and the bad behavior comes from a combination of reasons, if you had to bite your tongue to avoid mentioning race or “ghetto” behavior then it was a racist story…because that means you were judging the work environment not just based on the unprofessionslism of your work peers but attributing that to the fact that your coworkers were predominantly from minority’s ethnic groups, at least that’s what it sounds like. You also mentioned that race is relevant because of the nature of the business…payday loan places prey on low-income individuals oftentimes, they have nothing to do with particular ethnic groups. Now if you want to get into a discussion of how minorities are overly corralled into low-income environments due to the systemic and institutional racism inherent in our class structure hear in the U.S., especially when looking at the historical evolution of the limited economic opportunities available to for example, African Americans from the end of slavery onward, or the barriers to and restrictions on the economic success of other minority groups tied to cultural xenophobia, immigration and the power dynamics between different ethnic groups and the group in power, then your answer might make sense or have some context in defining the typical types of customers or staff you would find at a payday loan service. Otherwise yes your answer would have sounded racist, and your mention here that any of The details related to race were relevant and that the behavior was “ghetto” sound like casual racism. Yes, “ghetto” is a shorthand that I even find myself using to describe a certain type of behavior, and as a POC that makes me either a jerk, if I am applying it to minoroties, or a classist if I am applying it to people from different socio-ecomnomic backgrounds then middle class America. I met be totally off base as to your intention, since you seem aware that this interpretation of the story is problematic, but something about the casual way you approached this rubbed me the wrong way, I’m sorry.

        1. RKB*

          Yeah, ghetto is a microaggression. Like “ratchet” or “thug” or saying that the use of slang (that’s really AAVE) is “uneducated” or that natural hair is “unprofessional.”

          Eye rolled my way through that whole story. If it was about spoilt milk, make it about spoilt milk, and not your underlying problems with people of colour.

          1. AnitaJ*

            Right? I’m still really irked by this.

            Nothing about that story required identifying the participants racially. You used to work in a place where a co-worker was mean to you. But when you tried to tell that story, you couldn’t without needlessly adding in information about that person’s race. And you realized too late when recounting the story that you were actually talking to other black or hispanic people and they might not appreciate your racist slant. Identifying your coworkers’ ethnicity was relevant because of ‘the nature of the business;? That’s complete and utter BS.

          2. Mags*

            Yeah, I wouldn’t even call that casual racism. That was racist. I read that comment four times now, and am absolutely baffled as to why she felt the need to specify she was the only white person as relevant background. And then the recounted the story had nothing to do with race.

          3. Oxford Comma*

            Is ratchet racialized? I am asking in 100% sincerity with the hope of being educated. I really didn’t realize that it had anything to do with being “black” and more just being off-the-leash and a little grimy (but in a good way?). I fear I’m using it wrong, and I’m a total white chick. Not a great look:)

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Yes. It’s derived from “wretched,” and it’s primarily deployed by non-POC to denigrate Black women.

        3. Rookie Biz Chick*

          NJ – brilliantly put. All I could think of as a response to Fabulous is … WTF? These kinds of casually placed descriptives and the perceived need for ‘background’ are inherently racist biases in need of some of some deep self-reflection.

      5. AnonAcademic*

        ” I realized I couldn’t give any background to the story without sounding super racist, so I tried to backtrack significantly to avoid words identifying race or “ghetto-ness” (not sure how else to put that delicately…) MOST AWKWARD INTERVIEW QUESTION EVER.”

        I wouldn’t say the question was awkward, I would say your response to it probably indicated your discomfort having caught yourself about to say something racially charged if not actually racist. I am also confused why a story about a coworker argument at a check cashing place requires laying out the racial landscape to understand? Why not just “I once worked in a volatile environment and was verbally assaulted by a coworker at loud volume, and I stayed calm and tried not to engage” or whatever.

        1. Oxford Comma*

          Right, I think the check cashing commentary was meant to imply that, not only were customers and colleagues black and brown, but also poor. Oh, the indignity!

          Colleague behaved poorly, the end.

      6. Honeybee*

        After reading this…I’m still confused about why the racial makeup of your workplace, or your own race, or the setting of Chicago was relevant to the story. People of all races, genders, and backgrounds yell about petty things sometimes.

        Also, what does “ghetto-ness” mean?

    14. the gold digger*

      I said, “I don’t know” to a question in a McKinsey interview. The recruiter laughed at the end, put his arm over my shoulders, said something like, “GD, I love you to death, but I don’t think you have the right kind of problem-solving skills for us.”

      Which, if they wanted someone who could BS in front of a client, is absolutely true. I am not good at that kind of thing and don’t like being put on the spot if I don’t know the answer. I am not a smooth salesperson. I was the boring salesperson who created spreadsheets and talked to the finance people and showed all the advantages and the disadvantages and explained how we would handle the disadvantages (because there are always going to be problems – customers want to know you will fix them when they happen). The HR people wanted the touchy feel salesperson, but finance liked my logical, quantitative approach.

      But – now that I know what they are looking for (if only AAM had existed when I was in grad school), I could have knocked the question out of the park.

    15. the gold digger*

      And! I applied to Northwestern’s business school and had to have an interview. I asked the recruiter, “What makes Northwestern ten times better than the University of Texas that they charge ten times as much?”

      Nope. I was not admitted to Northwestern. However, my in-state MBA from a top 20 school cost me $5,000 in tuition, which I paid for out of savings, so I am OK with it.

    16. Lizabeth*

      In my younger days…interviewing at an ad agency, mention a really horrid commercial that was playing on the radio at the time (not during the interview!) and how bad it was. The interviewer got really defensive (the ad agency created it) and said that it accomplished what they intended since I remembered it. My reply: no, it didn’t because I remembering it for the wrong reason and wouldn’t check out the property (real estate ad for condos) based on the ad.

    17. NarrowDoorways*

      I went in for an interview once for a position that, on paper, had sounded to be almost exactly what I was currently doing. I was okay with a potential lateral move because I was chronically under-paid and over worked, both issues were addressed perfectly in the new company–high base base and not salary.

      Well, whoever made the job post had nothing to do with the actual role and I find out, upon arrival, that job role has nothing to do with X, it’s exclusively Y.

      So when the interviewer said, “What would stop us from hiring you?” I said, “I have no experience with Y and don’t think I want to gain any.” In any case, they thanked me for my honesty and I left irritated that I’d put my actual job at risk to interview in a very niche community where my job hunting it might get around for a position I had no interest in.

    18. Lady Blerd*

      I once applied to work at a theme park as a concession stand operator. I was asked if I was willing call out to passersby to bring them over, I said no. I knew that lost me the job at the time but solicitation of any sort has always made me uncomfortable. Today I could do it, I have learned how to speak in public and it wouldn’t faze me but at the time, the idea of crying out to people who would likely ignore me was too much for me to handle.

    19. Lizabeth*

      In another interview at an auction house, they had me do a sample catalog cover. When I finally talked with the interviewer, whom kept me waiting a half hour after finishing it and ate her lunch in front of me, grilled me about why it wasn’t in the auction houses’ current style. My reply: I’m not being hired to blindly copy a “style” but doing design that will help generate more interest in the upcoming auction. If she was looking for someone to blindly do a style – hire a monkey. I was really pissed at the behavior of that woman.

    20. overeducated*

      Hmm. At some level, I think presentations of my research hurt me in academic job interviews because it didn’t have a specific component that people in my field often look for, I took a less common and not universally accepted approach. But that’s more “not being the right candidate” than “being too honest.”

      The honesty that probably did hurt me was in a one-on-one interview with a hiring manager about how I’d teach a scientific subject that people from certain marginalized ethnic groups disagree with. It turned into an actual argument, he wanted someone who would just say “well, the science is correct.” I would say “this is what the science says, and these are the traditions of such-and-such ethnic groups,” and if questioned about my specific view, say I respect the tradition and their beliefs, but my background and role are in teaching the science. Personally, I am convinced by the science, but also aware that the scientific evidence comes in part from mistreating and silencing people from those groups over the last century or two, and hearing that their traditions are invalid tends to alienate people from those groups who are VERY well of that history, so there’s no need to be a jerk about it.

      Anyway, I got rejected for that job.

    21. Rat Racer*

      OK – this is a terrible story – once upon a time, in a moment of desperation in my early twenties, I accepted an interview with a very conservative policy/advocacy firm whose top line issue was drug policy. Their platform had something to do with harsher sentences for repeat offenders, opposing any legislation on decriminalization, tightening border security, etc. I don’t even remember the question that was asked, but I very quickly talked myself off a cliff, relaying the very personal story of my two best friends from highschool who became addicted to heroin, and what I learned about the disease of addiction from accompanying them to NA meetings and… hoo boy – ever been in that situation where you hear yourself talking and are begging yourself to shut up but it’s too late because you’re already in too deep?

    22. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      When asked “How are your math skills?” I answered with “Well, I’m really good with a calculator.” I actually have pretty strong math skills (I’m talking business level, not engineering level), so I have no idea why that came out of my mouth… Funny thing is, they did offer me the job, but after their three top choices declined. The fact they told me that outright was the exact reason I also declined.

      1. overeducated*

        Amazingly enough I answered a question like that and also got an offer! They kept saying that they wanted someone who was good with statistics, so I felt the need to emphasize the limitations of my actual statistics skills by naming specifically what I can do, and several types of analysis that I do not know anything about, in the interests of not being deceptive. If I’d been applying for any kind of data analysis or qual/quant research job at a large company, I would’ve been laughed out of there. But this was at a small org where apparently nobody knew much at all about statistics, so I guess my being able to even use the terms impressed them?

        Now I look back and wonder how my career would have gone differently if I had taken the offer, switched to a different field, and used the opportunity to build on my statistics skills and move to better paid jobs in the future with that. Sigh. Oh well.

    23. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I was interviewing for positions in my new field after I finished grad school. I had an interview for something I never thought of doing in that field, but it was with a big, well-known company, and I liked the VP and Director I was talking to. At one point the Director said, “This position isn’t based in NYC– it’s in our other headquarters in [middle of nowhere that’s kind of gray and cold]. How do you think you would handle that?” “Well, I’d probably run off to visit my parents in Florida every chance I got.”

      I didn’t get that job. It was down to me and one guy, and the guy got it, presumably because he didn’t mind the move. However, the Director was super nice to me and the VP later helped me get a job at another company. Nine years later (!), the Director was a client of the company I was working for, and we had a lovely email exchange that started with him saying, “I don’t know if you remember me…” So it wasn’t all bad.

    24. Ann Furthermore*

      My senior year in college, I interviewed with a local CPA firm. It was back in the dark ages when you would have an “Interests” section on your resume, and I had listed travel.

      The interviewer asked me where I traveled, and I told him that I’d lived in Saudi Arabia with my parents when I was a kid, so I’d had the opportunity to travel to many places around the world. He said that he’d taken his family to Israel the previous year.

      I immediately launched into a story about how my parents went to Israel, and found it very disappointing, because they found it very over commercialized. The examples they had were tour guides asking if you were Catholic or Protestant, and based on that telling you where some significant historical event had happened, and people lined up to get baptized in the Dead Sea like it was a ride at an amusement park. (And I mean no offense to anyone who has done that, it was just not their thing at all. Both my parents were/are pretty traditional.)

      Anyway, I was rambling on about this, and noticed the interviewer was giving me sort of a raised eyebrow look. Then I realized that he had a pretty traditional Jewish last name. Then I realized that for many Jewish people, a trip to Israel is a lifelong dream, and something very meaningful and significant for them. And there I was, crapping all over it and telling him that it was a cheesy, tacky, tourist trap, all without ever having been there myself. OMG. So mortifying. I kept trying to dig myself out, but only got in deeper and deeper.

      There was no second interview.

    25. Cat steals keyboard*

      That I would have preferred the role I originally applied for! They invited me to interview for a more senior job that I didn’t want as much. I shot myself in the foot on purpose so I wouldn’t have to agonise over whether to take it…

    27. ButFirstCoffee*

      I said one of my weaknesses was knowing how to deal with angry clients, because I tend to be a people pleasing type. Turns out there were a lot of angry people in that field? So maybe I dodged a bullet. *shrug*

    28. Marisol*

      Well now how in the hell would you know the answer to that? If they don’t hire you, they don’t necessarily tell you why, at least in my experience. It’s more like they say, “yeah, thanks, we went another way…” I’m guessing they are trying to get the candidate to disclose the worst thing about themselves. I would treat is as a “what’s your biggest weakness” question, but I’d have second thoughts about any interviewer who asked that. I know you say it’s an excellent question but to my mind it’s a bad one.

      I’d say something like, “I am an honest person, and that includes interviews. I don’t think I’ve ever been penalized for my honesty, and fortunately, I don’t have anything that I would want to keep secret from prospective employers” something like that, but with more elegant wording.

      1. Marisol*

        Oh, I feel silly for misunderstanding the post. I thought this was an interview question, rather than just a “let’s share stories” question. Duh, glad it’s Friday.

    29. Dr. Doll*

      Probably that I wanted the sabbatical I’d been approved for before starting. Also that the commute was, um, daunting (90 minutes heavy traffic one way, each way).

    30. NW Mossy*

      I have a flip-side version of this, wherein the most honest answer I’ve ever gotten to a question I asked as an interviewee was part of why I didn’t take the job when offered. I asked (as is often recommended) why the position was open, only to learn that the previous employee had died suddenly at a tragically early age. The owner who was interviewing me was clearly pretty upset about it still, and when I declined the offer in favor of a better-paid one closer to home, he was clearly very hurt. I can still remember his plaintive “Why?! I’ll do whatever I can to convince you to work here!”, which was deeply reminiscent of dumping a boyfriend. It was just sad times all around.

    31. AD*

      In college I applied for an assistant position in the business services department (or something like that), not realizing that it was actually for their IT department. The posting made no note of this and said only basic computer skills were necessary.

      During the interview they asked a ton of tech-heavy questions. One of the last questions was how I would help someone who said their printer wasn’t working.

      My answer was: “I would tell them to turn it off and turn it back on again.”

    32. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I was once asked what I think could be termed a “pain question” – “What is the biggest problem facing this employer?” – in an interview. This is a large non-profit employer, but not huge; not the type that makes headlines over its problems, in any case. I responded that while I didn’t know what the biggest problem faced by this employer was specifically, some problems faced by many institutions in this field were X and Y, and one solution that’s being explored in the field at large is A, which in my opinion is promising because blah blah. The interviewer was visibly displeased with my response.

      During an interview for a teaching position, I was asked what I would do as a school leader to effectively structure departments to achieve something or other. It was early enough in the interview that I actually said, “Oh, I’m sorry, I’m here about the Xth grade job position, not for school leadership,” thinking that maybe they had the wrong notes or resume. Nope. They actually meant to ask me that question. So I said something like, well IDK because I’ve never been in a school leadership position and it’s not a career path that interests me, but…etc.

      I don’t know if either of those actually caused me to not get the job, but I have zero regrets about not getting either of them!

    33. T3k*

      Wasn’t an interview, but more like a email conversation to see if I was still interested in this one job. However, the catch was they expected at least 15 hours a week and they couldn’t really afford to pay, so instead they were offering a percentage of royalties based on how much work you did for them. I said while I was still interested, I was actively looking for a part time job to help pay the bills. Never heard back, so I assume that didn’t sit well with them. Makes me curious how they expect to fill a spot if they can’t pay well but don’t want them having another job either.

    34. NicoleK*

      Interviewer asked me what qualities I didn’t like in a supervisor. I tried to stay neutral and general. Interviewer kept pushing me and I finally said micromanaging. Turns out that the interviewer was a micro manager. I definitely dodged a bullet.

    35. Drew*

      Two stories, in both of which I think I dodged a bullet:

      First: I was looking for a new editorial job that was going to allow me to move to the UK (exciting!) to help build a relatively new company. As part of the interview, they asked how I would improve the company. I told them they had abysmal copyediting and pointed to a recent publication that had six distinct errors *on the title page*, including a copyright notice that misstated the name of the book.

      Turns out what they really wanted was more of an acquisitions/development editor, and that they’d decided copyediting was something they could shirk on in their market (sadly, they were probably correct about that, but it offended my editorial sensibilities). I did not get to travel to the UK for an in-person interview, and I think I’m fine with that. I wouldn’t have been happy seeing my name on products that shoddy.

      Second: I was looking to move from a small, formerly family-owned company that had been bought by a multinational shortly before I was hired (the website didn’t disclose this when I applied and the interviewers were part of the old staff and didn’t stress that the culture was changing rapidly). So I applied to the local division of a larger, more traditional company in my field. During the interview, I was asked why I wanted to leave my current job, and I blurted out, “It’s becoming too corporate.” No, I did not get a second interview.

      Turns out to have been lucky; the larger company had several waves of layoffs over the next few years, and my smaller company got closed down by our corporate overlords a year after that interview, but I earned a lot of points with my bosses (and a very generous severance) for staying with them until the end.

  9. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Last week, I wrote in and asked about work samples. I sent those in to the company I’ve been talking to, and I got a note yesterday saying that the hiring managers were “intrigued” by my samples and wanted to go over them with me. We’re working on setting that up now. In the meantime, I’m getting so caught up in that “intrigued”! If they’d said “interested”, I wouldn’t have noticed. But “intrigued”? I can’t imagine what they want to talk about. Of course, my completely disordered job-searching thinking is jumping straight to, “They think this stuff sucks and want to have a conversation about why I’m wasting their time,” but that just seems bizarre. What does “intrigued” mean to you?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I wouldn’t read too much into it — I think it means interested and also possibly excited – that your samples were maybe a little different than they’re used to, but in a good way.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      In this case, it just means “interested” — like “I’m intrigued by this candidate and want to learn more.”

      You are doing the job seeker thing of reading too much into it, while the employer is doing the employer thing of not putting nearly as much thought into their words :)

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        And fwiw, I think everyone else responding is also reading way too much into it! It doesn’t necessarily mean surprised, or excited, or that they’re different. It just means interested.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Thanks! I’m way too close to all of this. I definitely want them to be interested, and honestly, I don’t really want them to be OMG BLOWN AWAY. That sounds odd, but I think it’s because I just want to be seen as capable and intelligent, not like some kind of superhero rockstar, which I am decidedly not.

      2. fposte*

        Yeah, it means somebody used that language writing to candidates two years ago and that’s how they’ve sounded ever since.

        I’m also reminded of a recruiter turning down a friend of mine thirty years ago with “We’re not intrigued.”

    3. Jules the First*

      Intrigued = interested and surprised (in a good way)

      It means they got your work samples and thought you showed an angle they weren’t expecting. This is a good thing!

      (Or they have thesaurus-itis)

    4. Jillociraptor*

      The absolute opposite as you’re reading it: “We are so jazzed about this but we’re trying to play it cool.”

      The only time a person ever said they were “intrigued” about me related to a job interview, I was by far the top candidate and they REALLY wanted me. I think this is a good thing! Good luck!!

    5. Way over there*

      I think it sounds promising! I actually think “interesting” is a bit over used in (I assume your field is) design. In my old school we called it the adjective Teachers used when they can’t find anything to say about a design. Intrigued is a good start, I think it means they want to start a conversation, which is good :D

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        That’s so funny– I am not at a designer by any stretch of the imagination! My background is in media research and insights. :) I’m used to being told my work is interesting and sometimes clever and occasionally overblown.

    6. Me2*

      Intrigued, to me, means even more interested than just regular interested. I would have read it as a positive thing.

    8. Cat steals keyboard*

      ” Of course, my completely disordered job-searching thinking is jumping straight to, “They think this stuff sucks and want to have a conversation about why I’m wasting their time”

      Why would they waste their own time telling you this? This, my friend, is doublethink.

    9. Sherm*

      If I had a million dollars, I would bet it all that they’re not going to tell you the samples suck and that you’re wasting their time, or even that they have mild criticism for you. I was involved in hiring for a position recently, and we received a disappointing sample. Just the idea of calling the guy up and telling him what was wrong didn’t even occur to me. I’m busy, it’s not my role to be a teacher, and I doubt I would have accomplished much besides rubbing salt in the wound. I’m sure they are interested in you in a good way and have my fingers crossed!

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Thanks! I work so hard at being level-headed and un-crazy, but job-searching uncertainty is getting the better of me. We’re talking again on Tuesday afternoon, at which point my head will (hopefully) be clear after a couple of days of Rosh Hashanah reflection.

  10. Anon Fishy*

    After a few months of little to no interviews, I’m working on improving my cover letters. One piece of advice I keep reading is that cover letter need to be specific to why you want to work at that particular place. I’m having a lot of difficulties using this advice.

    I’m looking for administrative work and I’m casting a very wide net. Colleges, non-profits, for-profits, government, medical, everything. So my reasons for wanting to work at these places are really non-existent. Some places, like non-profits, I can talk about what I like about their work, but for most places, the reason I want to work there is because it’s not my current employment and there’s an opening that I’m qualified.

    Anyone have any thoughts as to how I could specify my cover letters better, even though the real reasoning is faily generic?

    2. MacGirl*

      For both non-profit organizations and for-profit businesses, you can describe how your skills/experience will allow you to contribute to the organization’s mission/business goals. Cite specific examples of work/accomplishments in previous jobs and relate how you can use those to excel in the position that you are applying for.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I hate this advice for the exact reason you mention — sometimes you don’t care WHERE you do the work, but you care about the work itself. In these cases, I have always just focused my cover letters on why that role in particular excited me, and why I felt I was exceptionally qualified to do the job.

    4. Terra*

      You can always skim their website, google them, or check them on Glassdoor for something positive like if they get praised for their company culture or win best place to work awards and then work that it. A lot of the “why you want to work there” part of a cover letter is about proving you did some kind of research before hitting submit, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a ton of research at this stage.

    5. hbc*

      Fake it. Don’t blow smoke, but there is probably something about that environment/company/field that could be interesting. And since no one is comparing cover letters, it doesn’t matter if they’re contradictory. You can like one job because you’d be supporting a particular group and be able to learn their particular needs, and another job because you’d be in a general admin pool and that will give you a lot of variety.

    6. Anyonecandothis*

      Preach. I’m in that situation, too. Like you said, I want to work here because it’s not my current employer. And I can file…

    7. irritable vowel*

      As someone who sits on a lot of hiring committees, I can tell you that a generic cover letter is a huge turnoff. You can describe your skills and background very accurately, but if I feel like this is a letter that you’ve sent to 30 other companies, it’s going to go to the bottom of the pile. Look at the company’s website, find some piece of information you can tie into the job you’re applying for, and mention both specifically in your letter: “As one of the two top suppliers in our region, Acme Teapot Supply needs someone in the position of administrative coordinator who can succeed in a fast-paced office environment and provide excellent support for high customer volume. My experience suits me well for this position because [blah blah blah].”

  11. ManagersHateMe*

    Apologies for length, but I have this…..problem and I just don’t know how to fix it or who to ask for help, so I’m hoping you guys can help me:

    I’m currently a student taking a double masters in International Relations/Diplomacy and Interpreting (I’ve mentioned my foreign language background later) and work part time in retail while studying.

    I’ve had about 5 retail jobs in the past 7 years (I worked for a year between school/uni & was an undergrad until the start of last year) and in EVERY SINGLE JOB bar one, the managers have HATED me. And it’s not just something in my head, they are obvious about it to the point you know it’s not just a gut feeling (such as yelling at you for being back from break a minute late one day while letting others come back 10 minute late 3 times a week) and are often treating me differently to the point that my co-workers have picked up on it and made comments like ‘wow, she really doesn’t like you’. I always feel like I’m always told I don’t do things ‘well’ even though I know I actually am capable of doing my job fine and know for a fact I have co-workers who perform much worse than I do, but are always praised.

    I don’t know what on earth I do wrong. I know in life, not everyone will like you, but it just seems to be a trend where I am hated by my hierarchal superiors and it’s one that is worrying me because I want to have a successful career one day.

    I’m generally well liked by my colleagues who are ‘on my level’. There will always be that person or two that doesn’t like you because you rub them the wrong way or whatever, but I’d say a solid 90% of the time, my co-workers like me or at the very least would say something like ‘she’s fine, I mean, I’ve got no problem with her’. I’m generally easy to get along with and have a really pleasant personality without being excessively over the top.

    But my managers NEVER like me.

    I don’t know what I do wrong and it’s starting to make me feel like there is something wrong with me or like I am just going to be one of those people who can never succeed.

    The only explanation people have come up with is that my intelligence might make me ‘threatening’ to people with authority than me in what is essentially ‘low skilled’ work.

    I’m worried this will sound arrogant, but I’m wondering if maybe…..that could be it? Does this sound likely? I don’t know if this is how people work. I don’t want to sound up myself, but I am a very intelligent person. I have a high IQ, speak very articulately and people always comment that I just ‘sound’ or ‘come off’ smart from speaking to me even just briefly.

    I have an undergraduate honours degree in art/law (which can be studied at undergrad in my country), speak 4 languages perfectly (my maternal grandparents were born in Albania and Croatia, so I am fluent in Serbo-Croatian, Albanian and Italian as well as English) and am conversationally very proficient in French and German as I majored in them for the arts part of my degree. I don’t really throw this around or brag about it though, but if asked about my study background as a conversation topic, I’ll tell the truth without dumbing down. The languages have come up before as well as I’ve often assisted customers in one of my other languages. My city has a very large Italian diaspora and a reasonably big Balkan diaspora and you very have older immigrants who struggle with English, which is why I’ll often switch languages. If asked what I’d like to do when I graduate, I tell the truth: i’d like to work as a translator/interpreter in the diplomacy field. Most people think it’s pretty cool/interesting when I tell them stuff like that or they hear me speaking another language.

    I also will note that I have done a couple of good internships…..I’ve interned at 2 well respected law firms, a government department in my country and most recently, Croatia’s embassy in my country. I’ve had absolutely no problem with any of my superiors in any of these places. They were patient and kind during the learning process and never made me feel disliked or like I was useless. I’ve even had a well respected lawyer and embassy official both offer to be professional references for me as I start my career. So that suggests I don’t have a problem with my work ethic or capabilities.

    I just seem to be always hated by these retail bosses and don’t know what I am doing wrong, or whether the problem is me or them or whether this is a bad sign for my future career.

    Help? I’m generally good at keeping my anxiety under control but now it’s clear that within less than two months, another retail boss hates me, I’m feeling a bit anxious about it and even starting to question my ability to be successful in the workforce despite having done well as an intern.

    Ugh, what’s wrong with me?

    1. chumpwithadegree*

      There is nothing wrong with you. It takes experience to hide your intelligence and knowledge. It’s not easy when you have a job that requires talking. I think the problem might be that you have a shining, golden future-since in language nothing is fancier than a diplomatic interpreter. Your bosses in retail, on the other hand, will always just be bosses in retail. Your brains probably alienate them.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I kind of agree with this answer and I kind of don’t. “Just be bosses in retail” is a little dismissive of some very hardworking people. However, I do think that coming off as “too intelligent” might make some bosses dislike you. I worked retail before going to grad school, and I did have that problem with some people – generally ones who seemed to think I wanted their job (I didn’t) and saw me as a threat (I wasn’t). And it does take practice to communicate in the way that you might be expected to. Maybe your code-switching needs a bit of a polish.

        Another idea – maybe it’s the type of retail jobs that you’re working. If you tried to work in more high-end or specialty retail, your bosses might like that you come off sounding knowledgeable. Customers prefer to spend large amounts of money when they trust the salesperson knows what s/he’s talking about. (I’ve done high-end and low-end, and there is a difference in expectations.)

        On the other hand, I once got feedback from my manager (at a health insurance company) that the director didn’t like how large my vocabulary was, because it made her feel unintelligent. (This may or may not have been true, because this manager was a pathological liar who often maneuvered other people into saying negative things.) Apparently, I was supposed to guess which “big” words she did or didn’t know, and tailor my speech accordingly. (For the record, I wasn’t using grad-school speak, just speaking like a normally well-educated person would.) Neither the manager nor the director is still at the company…

        1. OP*

          Yes! I’ve tried to make it clear that I really, really don’t want their job, but it doesn’t stop them viewing me as a threat sometimes.

          I have had one manager say it looks like I am ‘showing off’ if I assist a customer in Albanian or Serbo-Croatian or Italian. I tried to explain that I just wanted to help them as best as I can (I don’t love retail, but I’m always happy to help someone if I can) and was able to better assist that customer in a language they are more comfortable dealing in. Apparently my ‘excuse’ was too well thought out….when I thought it was just common sense. But see, I thought it was just that one particular manager who was crazy. Now I am wondering if it is something a large number might…..feel?

          1. Mustache Cat*

            I’ve tried to make it clear that I really, really don’t want their job

            Oh boy. In what way did you do this? Is there any way that you were being insulting towards their chosen profession?

            1. OP*

              Oh no, I try and be much more subtle! I mean more in the sense when they ask what my goals are career wise, I always say that my dream is to be an interpreter and I’m working very hard towards it and when at one point a regional manager asked if I wanted a 3IC position (which comes with a certificate in vocational training in retail), I said that I’m a masters student and can’t really study both and that I’d be taking an opportunity away from someone who’d appreciate it more and sees their future working in the industry.

              1. the.kat*

                That could be your problem. I know that in your head it doesn’t sound like you’re looking down on them, you’ve basically set it up as an “me vs. them” scenario. This doesn’t upset your coworkers because some of them feel the same way, but for a manager who chose to do this, you sound like you think you’re too good for their field and their job.

          2. Anna*

            That manager sounds like an idiot–why wouldn’t an employee assist customers in their native languages?

            The only instance I can think of where that might possibly be a bad thing is if another employee was helping the customer and you stepped in and took over without clearing it with the other employee first.

        2. Skippy*

          I agree with polishing up the code-switching. When I worked retail, I learned the right things to say and do around certain managers. With this one, you don’t chit-chat, you ask how sales are looking for the day, you make doubly sure to buckle down whenever they’re on duty for the day. With this one, you come up with a few silly jokes or lines from movies to throw at him the minute you see him, and then you’re on his good side for the day and you can relax a little. With this one, you can completely be yourself and as long as you’re doing what you should be doing, everything’s cool. With this one, there’s nothing to be done. Try to bring as little attention to yourself as possible, and watch everything you say. It ended up being a really great system, and got me through five years of retail in one store with multiple managers (and management turnover) and only two managers ever actively disliked me.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        This is the equivalent of saying “that girl in your class bullies you because she’s jealous of you.”

      3. Rocky*

        Ya know, I worked retail on and off right up until I finished my second master’s degree. All of my bosses at least put up with me, and most of them even liked me. Well, except one, and she didn’t like anyone. One of them was one of the best bosses and hardest workers I’ve ever seen, and I still think about her fondly. It’s also very common for people to take retail gigs when they’re in school, between careers, or need to supplement their income. Being over-educated for a retail position is not very unique. I sold lots of shoes with lots of people with graduate degrees. So what I’m saying is, don’t assume it’s them. I am a serious introvert and I would typically get burnt out on my retail gigs because I couldn’t keep up with the emotional demands, but that’s not about how anyone else feels.

      4. RevengeoftheBirds*

        What? I think it’s pretty challenging and a great accomplishment to a Store Manager of a big box store like Walmart.

    2. Em*

      I have a feeling this might be a controversial comment, but I would not be at all surprised if a lot of it comes down to jealousy on the part of your managers.

      From what you say, you sound like a multi-talented and intelligent person. Not a lot of people can speak SIX languages. It sounds like you have goals you’re working towards and some great career prospects waiting for you when you finish graduate school in prestigious and well respected fields and will do something you’re interested in.

      However, I hope I don’t sound disparaging, but I feel like retail is something very few people dream of as a career. It is something you generally end up in. I wonder if they don’t like you because they see your potential and intelligence and are jealous you have a real shot at breaking out of retail and never looking back after graduation?

      Jealousy can bring out the nasty.

    3. aebhel*

      I suspect that they do feel threatened by your education. Assuming you’re not doing something obnoxious like being insubordinate or talking down to them… I think that’s probably it. People with a little bit of power can sometimes get really insecure about it and may feel the need to take someone they perceive as acting ‘superior’ down a peg or two. If you’re doing well in your internships, I wouldn’t worry about it being a long-term thing.

      Be pleasant, be polite, don’t show off, do your job–if you’re doing all that, and your managers still have an issue with you, they’re the ones with the problem.

    4. Mustache Cat*

      I hesitate to say this, but here goes: for someone who states that they don’t brag often, this entire comment is a very long (humble?)brag. I understand that you wanted to provide context for us, but a lot of the extraneous detail wasn’t necessary, and only really only provides more detail about how smart and accomplished you are. I’m sorry if this is hard to hear, but maybe this could be contributing. I don’t think you need to act artificially modest or dumb, but if you are really worried about it, maybe you can re-examine how you talk about yourself to see if you really do come off as condescending.

      It sounds like it hasn’t been holding you back in your chosen career path, however, only in retail, so you also have the option of simply not worrying about it. I think that’s a perfectly legitimate choice.

      1. Mustache Cat*

        oh lol, the rest of the comments on this thread have been alarmingly classist. OP, please don’t absorb these attitudes about retail managers.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Hey! My comments apply to all managers, everywhere. :) Some people *are* threatened by others who they perceive as wanting their jobs or being somehow more competent.

          And I loved working retail. If I could afford the low pay, I would totally go back, but I don’t live in an area where most people can afford to make a real living off it, unless they’re a store owner, and that’s too much risk for me right now. (Although the FLSA changes might make retail management a more attractive option in the coming year.)

        2. aebhel*

          In my experience, when someone gets bizarrely defensive about working with someone who uses ‘long words’ or speaks another language, feeling threatened by their education has a lot to do with this. It’s not everyone in blue collar/service industry (I come from a blue collar background and I’m pretty sure my family doesn’t hate me because I went to college), but people who are insecure tend not to want to be reminded that there are things they don’t know how to do.

          “Speaking a language other than English is showing off” is insecure jerk behavior, and I don’t think it’s classist to point that out.

      3. OP*

        I was more trying to combat the potential ‘people who say they are smart generally aren’t’ comments that often pop up online if someone says they are.

        I am smart, that’s a fact and it is what it is. I am proud of what I have accomplished and believe I have the right to be, but don’t like, introduce myself as ‘HI, I’m X and I have a law degree and am multilingual and am so smart’

        1. AshK434*

          I 100% agree with MustacheCat. It’s fine to admit that you’re smart but your post did read as a long humble brag and was off-putting. There’s just an air of superiority that I’m getting from reading your comments so I’m wondering how you come across in person. I hope this doesn’t come across as mean but this might be why your managers aren’t like you.

          BTW no one is denying that you’re smart so I’m not sure why you felt the need to clarify that.

        2. Cheese*

          Yeah, I get what you’re saying, but as someone who does not know you, your post comes across a bit braggy, and if you act this way around your managers, it may be part of the problem. I want to echo other people here and say I am not saying this to be mean, but because you asked for reasons as to why your managers might not like you–if you come across to them as you did in your post, then that might be why.

        3. Jane*

          Unfortunately, I have to agree here. Your accomplishments are certainly something to be proud of but there’s a time and a place for pointing them out, and on the retail floor is probably not that place. I’m wondering if you’ve having difficulty reading the room and not realising you may sound rather immodest or derisive of their competencies.

        4. Silver*

          I’m one of those people that finds learning new things easy but one thing that I found very early on is that in some situations you have to downplay your talents to get along with people.

          For example for the 3IC offer I would have suggest I can’t fit it in with my current schooling schedule instead of seeming to denigrate your superiors chosen career. What I would do is keep it vague, keep it polite and don’t make people feel bad about their life choices/opportunities.

      4. burnout*

        This. Yes.

        If this were your experience with just one or two jobs, maybe its them. But ALL your jobs? It’s you.

      5. Anonyhippo*

        Yes. I’m sure the managers are picking up on this.

        Think about it this way: They hired you to do a job and to do what you are told. They didn’t hire you to brag about your super future and be obvious about how this work is beneath you and only temporary. If you are behaving anything like your post comes across, you are going to be an annoyance. Keep your brags to yourself, do your work, stop questioning authority Iif your are), and don’t let your attitude show.

        …You can do that after work to friends and family who are not paying you your salary to be condescended to.

    5. Data Lady*

      I’m not totally convinced that this is entirely about jealousy, per se. Back when I worked in retail, I worked with lots of students and recent grads who were open about their career ambitions yet were treated just fine by our managers. In university towns/cities, retail managers expect to have run a staff full of students who may not consider their retail work to be a career path. It can create an iffy dynamic at times, but more often than not they just roll with it. I suspect that there are a few things going on here:

      -I think you might be *unintentionally* giving off the vibe that you think you’re above the work that you’re doing. Again sometimes anxiety-triggered behaviours can be read as superior.
      -Your anxiety gets interpreted as something else more negative, like defensiveness or an inability to take feedback well.
      -If there are some job skills you are markedly weaker at, these deficiencies alongside a vibe of knowing that you’re underemployed might suggest to some people that you feel that you deserve special treatment, or that you expect to coast on your hard skills or something similar. This isn’t your intention, of course, but it is how this sort of situation can be read.

      These issues sometimes play out a bit differently in retail environments than they do in pre-professional work, which is probably why you had better relationships with your superiors in your pre-professional jobs.

      1. OP*

        The only thing I can really think of now you mention it, is that I am by nature a bit more reserved and introverted than bubbly and super extroverted and retail workers in my in my country tend to be a bit more out there.

        I don’t think it is snobbiness, I’m just a bit quieter and not someone who wears her ‘heart on her sleeve’ when it comes to her emotions or puts on grand displays of enthusiasm like a lot of coworkers will. I’m not going to LITERALLY jump up and down and start seal clapping because the team made budget or they got all their boxes unpacked or things like that. My response is ‘Oh that’s good to hear’. Because it is. But it’s not like Albania just qualified to Euro 2016 or my sister just go engaged or something truly worth that sort of happy display? I’m not going to laugh if a bosses lame joke isn’t funny and stuff like that. I don’t force that stuff. (But on the flip side, when I *do* laugh or show happiness, you know it is very genuine. That’s just me.) Maybe it comes across to them that I think I’m above them? When it’s just my personality.

        I feel like I can take feedback OK, I did fine at my internships. I think in this instance, a lot of it is just my pure gut instinct that these managers don’t like me and little things like the way they are much harder on me or ALWAYS makes me do the shittiest tasks rather than sharing them around that sort of make me think I’m right that it’s at least somewhat personal.

        1. Leka*

          I have a very similar personality type and I’ve found that it doesn’t always lend itself to customer service jobs where I find a lot of the “workplace culture” is built on this sort of forced OMG I’M HAPPY TO BE HERE I LOVE CUSTOMERS I LOVE LIFE HAPPY HAPPY morale. When I was a student and did those kind of jobs, I struggled with being seen as a snob too, and for the exact same reasons.

          You sound like you flourish when you are not expected to be this super outgoing and perky thing and can do work you find stimulating and challenging without having to pretend you are SO HAPPY WE UNPACKED ALL THE BOXES GO TEAM GO! HIGH 5! GROUP HUG!

          Customer service can be difficult for introverts and not just because of talking to customers. Talking to customers never bothered me. Having to put on what was basically a fake personality did.

        2. hbc*

          I’m no cheerleader myself, but there’s such a thing as a courtesy laugh/snort/smile, and if you leave someone feeling like they totally bombed, they’re not going to have great feelings about you. They shouldn’t be taking it out on you so overtly, but if you’re already the person who’s moving on to bigger and better things, you really have to be careful about the signals you send out. “Your joke has failed to amuse me” and “Your sales targets aren’t important in my life” are all going in the wrong direction.

          1. OP*

            I think that’s what makes it so difficult, because I’m not in any way saying ‘Oh, I don’t give a fuck’, I’m just not jumping up and down like it is the best thing that has happened in my life and they take that as not giving a fuck. But I’m just too reserved to convincingly pull off acting that (and I’d also feel like the world’s biggest twat). I do give the courtesy smile/laugh but my problem is, it takes me a couple of seconds to be all ‘oh they were trying to be funny’, and my smile/laugh just looks insincere (and ngl, when your manager does it like, 20 times an hour, it gets tired). I’m academically intelligent, I’m not shy…..but I am introverted and I’m not a good actress. It often feels like introvert ‘policing’ the way we are expected to act like extroverts when it is not natural. I wish there was more of an understanding that you can care without loudly advertising that you care? If that makes sense.

            I care a little…..but I don’t care as much as they expect. Which is carrying on like you just won the lottery.

            1. Skippy*

              You gotta get out of retail then. As a retail veteran, faking enthusiasm for this stuff is the only way to get through it. If your response to “we got everything from today’s shipment out!” is “Oh, good,” or you don’t respond to a dumb joke, you’re not endearing yourself to anyone, especially managers. Retail involves a lot of ass-kissing and faking. There’s a fantastic comic strip called “Retail” that I love, and the creator wrote a book called “Pretending You Care: The Retail Employee’s Handbook” and I think it should be required reading for everyone in retail.

              1. aebhel*

                This was my other thought. When I was in younger, I had a couple of disastrous retail jobs (I am also quiet and reserved and don’t see the need to JUMP FOR JOY because we made our sales goals or whatever), and then I started doing housekeeping. It didn’t pay any more, but I didn’t have to deal with people nearly as much, and in general housekeepers go for that line of work partly because they haaaate talking to people (also, in my area at least, a lot of housekeepers aren’t native English speakers, so being multilingual is actually really helpful). It was just a much better environment for me.

                1. OP*

                  I feel very trapped with retail as my ‘part time while I study’ job because it is all I have experience in other than my internships.

                2. aebhel*

                  FWIW, housekeeping in a hotel is something you can pretty much do with no experience. The trade-off is that it’s physically strenuous, and you really don’t get any downtime (and it can be pretty gross–definitely not for the squeamish). You might also want to try some kind of part-time clerical or receptionist work? Those are often somewhat more low-key environments.

              2. Christopher Tracy*

                Retail involves a lot of ass-kissing and faking.

                Not just retail either – there are lots of office jobs across many industries that have large customer service components that also expect employees to “play the game” if you will to a certain extent to succeed. If you don’t, you absolutely won’t endear yourself to the people for whom it matters or move up, though the latter clearly isn’t a concern with OP since retail isn’t the end goal anyway, but still. Just something to think about because interpreting requires strong customer service skills and the ability to form decent working relationships too, and if OP doesn’t learn how to excel at the latter, she may have problems in her chosen field as she tries to advance her career later.

            2. AnonAnalyst*

              Agreeing with Skippy. I totally get why you are reacting the way you are to these things, but my guess is that it might be coming across as conceited or arrogant to the managers who are expecting more of a reaction. I also hesitate to say it because you provided some additional explanation above, but your original question read as a bit humbebrag-gy to me as well, which I imagine would only exacerbate the conceited/arrogant perception if any of that is coming through while you are at work.

              You also say that your courtesy smile/laugh looks insincere, and that it takes a a little longer for you to realize that something was supposed to be funny, for example. I wonder if the delay and obvious insincerity is reading as condescension when combined with some of the stuff mentioned above.

              I don’t think any of this stuff is even anything you need to work to change because I think in most environments, it’s fine (and frankly, pretty normal). But as others have mentioned, retail tends to have more expectations around excitement and enthusiasm, and I think it just may be a bad fit for you when your natural responses are much more reserved. I hope you are able to find a better fit once you finish school!

              1. OP*

                Having read a comment below, I think some of it might be cultural misunderstanding. I have grown up in Australia, but in Balkan family and by nature, Albanians and Croatians are polite, but a lot less overly super positive and emotional. We are more reserved and we don’t sort of……lay on the overly friendly ‘everyone is my best mate, everything is so exciting’ stuff the way that a lot of Australians. I think perhaps some of the cultural aspects of it may not be clear. Yes, they know I can speak Albanian and Serbo-Croatian, but they may not get the nuances of cultural differences. To them, being SUPER OMG POSITIVE about the smallest things is seen as a good thing. In the culture I was raised in, it makes you look like a foolish twit.

            3. Jaguar*

              It’s hard to gauge how you’re reacting in these situations since you’re pushing back on the idea of faking enthusiasm for something you’re not interested while simultaneously saying you are faking enthusiasm for those things, so maybe this advice doesn’t address your problem. That said, the idea of “faking enthusiasm” misses the point of talking to people. When people talk about their day, or something they did, or a TV show they watched, or whatever, they’re sharing something they themselves have an interest in and the audience is invested in it because they’re interested in the person sharing. The audience doesn’t have to be (and often isn’t) interested in the specific thing being talked about – they’re interested in conversing with a person about what’s going on with them. So if someone shares that they met a sales goal or whatever, you don’t have to care about meeting that sales goal yourself, and people that are enthusiastic about it aren’t either interested in the sales goal or being fake. In most cases, they’re happy because it made someone they like talking to happy.

              Again, this sounds really condescending and basic, so I’m sorry if I’m misreading what you’re saying and you understand this, but it seems to be a disconnect you’re not grasping. If I can wildly speculate a little, it kinda sounds to me that you don’t care about your managers as colleagues and are reframing it as a principled stand on being genuine about your level of interest in things. People are going to pick up on that.

              1. OP*

                I think it is that I am faking enthusiasm but not on the level they seem to think is normal. Having read some replies here, I’m starting to think it’s a combination of having a more naturally introverted personality and some cultural difference/misunderstanding. See, Australians tend to be a lot more ‘outgoing’ than Croats and Albanians. Croats and Albanians are not rude, we’re polite and friendly but treating someone like your best mate is reserved for, well, your actual best mates, not work acquaintances. No Albanian or Croat would tell me ‘you could try and actually look happy about it ‘ if my response to making budget was ‘oh thats good’ and a small smile the way Australian retail managers will. Walking around with a perma cheshire cat grin is weird to someone from the Balkans, but endearing to Anglo-Australians. My reactions are perfectly acceptable and not rude in the culture in which I spend most of my time and I seem to get away with it more in fields with less expectation to be SUPER!! HAPPY!! ALL!! THE!!! TIME!! And I guess because of that, I find it completely impossible to act like the person celebrating like Albania or Croatia just won the World Cup because some boxes got unpacked. To me, it’s making a complete *ass* of myself, because that is exactly how that would be perceived in Balkan culture.

                1. Skippy*

                  I think you’ve identified the problem then. Your managers expect X (in this case, a more pronounced reaction). You’re not giving them X. Now you have to decide if you want to work on giving them X or if you are unwilling to do so and should look for another job.

                2. Jaguar*

                  Yeah. I’m not Australian and don’t have any retail experience, so I’m out of my depth on any of that. Maybe it is just culture shock, but as you mention, you get along fine with others and not with management, so that doesn’t seem like a satisfying explanation.

                  I’m not trying to be accusatory, but when people talk about “faking enthusiasm,” it’s usually a red flag for a lack of maturity. People don’t generally fake enthusiasm in social situations. Doing so is kinda sociopathic. They act enthusiastic because the transition from children to adults involves, among many other things, the pre-occupation with selfish concerns to the pre-occupation with other’s concerns. People are genuinely interested in other people and are happy to see them happy and troubled to see them troubled. And again, this sounds really condescending and insulting to me to write, but there’s a lot of conflicting stuff that you’ve written and I find hard to reconcile, so I’m just working from some clues that pop out instead. I might be wildly off.

                3. aebhel*

                  I’m not trying to be accusatory, but when people talk about “faking enthusiasm,” it’s usually a red flag for a lack of maturity. People don’t generally fake enthusiasm in social situations. Doing so is kinda sociopathic. They act enthusiastic because the transition from children to adults involves, among many other things, the pre-occupation with selfish concerns to the pre-occupation with other’s concerns. People are genuinely interested in other people and are happy to see them happy and troubled to see them troubled.

                  NGL, I hate this attitude. Some people are more reserved by nature (or culture), and being endlessly fascinated and enthusiastic about everything other people do is exhausting. Learning to make small talk is a necessary social skill, but plenty of mature and well-adjusted people never learn to enjoy it. That seems to split pretty cleanly along introvert/extrovert lines, and telling someone that they will either be genuinely enthusiastic about everything or they’re essentially a sociopath is pretty aggravating.

                  High-energy, hyper-social behavior may be necessary in a retail environment, but it’s not the only way to be a functional adult.

                4. Jaguar*

                  I wasn’t making that dichotomy. I was saying “faking enthusiasm” strikes me as sociopathic behaviour. I agree people shouldn’t do it!

                5. aebhel*

                  Sure, but that becomes a problem when you’re expected to express enthusiasm for something you don’t really care about, or to express yourself in a more heightened emotional register than is comfortable or natural. Then your options basically are either ‘fake it’ (which is sociopathic, apparently) or piss people off by being less enthusiastic than they want. That’s exactly the problem the OP is facing here.

                  As far as I can tell, your solution is ‘genuinely mature people don’t fake enthusiasm because they’re genuinely enthusiastic about things that other people care about’, and that strikes me as unrealistic.

                6. TL -*

                  I think he’s saying that genuinely mature people find it easy to be happy and excited about someone else’s happiness.

                  My best friend just had a baby. I don’t really care about his food or sleep habits or day to day minutiae. I just care that he’s healthy and happy. But my best friend cares, a lot, so when she shares good news, like baby sleeping through the night, I am happy because she’s happy.

                  I still don’t have an interest in baby sleep patterns, but I can be happy that she’s happy.

                7. NotAPsycho!*

                  I am not a bad person, I like others to be happy, but there are things where I simply still don’t really care about or am interested in no matter how much I like the person. There are some things I just don’t care about. And I really reject the notion that not finding it easy to care about things you are not into makes you immature or poorly adjusted or an a$$hole.

                  I love my partner, but I don’t really care about Arsenal. I HATE football. But when he wants to be excited about their win, I will feign interest for a minute. I am one of those people who really hates cats and don’t think they’re at all cute, but when a co-worker is really excited about her new kitten and shows a picture, I’ll pretend to be care. It’s not about being a ‘psycho’ but simply being a nice person.

                  And sometimes, feigning interest is just what you HAVE to do. I worked retail 15 years ago while a student and I can’t tell you how many times I couldn’t have been less interested in the small talk topic a customer wanted to talk about but faked interest in it about it because that was what I had to do for my job.

                  To me, the ability to recognise when you just need to slap on some fake interest to be a polite person, to be kind to another person or to do your job effectively and do it is actually a sign of maturity.

          2. irritable vowel*

            +1 million. And while retail is generally a more extroverted field (in that the people who do well in it tend to be very outgoing and personable), it’s going to serve you well in whatever your chosen field is to be able to fake genuine interest in something that you don’t care about or laugh at a joke you don’t find funny (assuming it’s not actually offensive). You may see doing this as being fake, and not something you can bring yourself to do, but so what. Just do it. There is an expression in English, “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” You’ll be pleasantly surprised how much more positively people respond to you if you make them feel good about themselves. If it helps, look at it as something you’re doing for yourself rather than for them.

        3. Data Lady*

          Something I’ve learned is that people will often read really ugly things (such as arrogance) into someone’s introversion. Doubly so if you’re a woman working in an field where introversion doesn’t represent the ideal. That said, you can be expressive and supportive of your colleague’s positive moments without being super perky. Acting as though it’s a matter of needing to be happy happy joy joy all the time kind of misses the point, and might not leave you feeling open towards finding new ways to engage with your colleagues.

          As well, you might feel that you can take feedback OK, but it might not be what others are seeing. Having been on both sides of this sort of situation, when you have a subordinate to whom you feel weird about delivering feedback, you’ll eventually go into Bitch Eating Crackers mode with them. That’s possibly a part of what’s happening with your bosses.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          I’m more extroverted and I don’t do that stuff either. One place I worked (not retail) had a cheer. A CHEER. We did it at all-team (company) meetings. I felt like an idiot–I did it once and the rest of the time I faked it. Because eww.

          But networking and building relationships at work are about interaction, not cheers and fake laughing. If someone tells a joke and it’s mildly funny, a smile or a “Heh” is fine. Personally, if it’s a groaner, I WILL groan. They’re expecting something, and what that something is depends on that workplace’s culture.

          Obviously this particular thing isn’t a good fit–if you’re expected to jump up and down like a kangaroo on crack whenever something happens and you don’t want to, that’s just extra stress. I think I’d feel really uncomfortable in a situation like that. (I reserve my jumping up and down for really cool stuff, haha.)

    6. Hotel GM Guy*

      I doubt that it’s because you’re smarter than they are, and it’s more likely that you have an air of arrogance.

    7. Nony2016*

      I wonder why you work in retail considering your pretty impressive qualifications and academic background? I get you’re probably in retail because the schedule may work better while you’re in school, but I’m sure your school may have positions open for students, which tend to be pretty flexible. If I were you, I’d look for other jobs. Perhaps admin or research support roles would be better suited to you.

      As for why your managers hate you, it could be a number of reasons. But what’s clear from your post is that you think pretty highly of yourself. While you shouldn’t be faulted for that, that kind of vibe is something people notice. And insecure people may not appreciate it. You’ll find people like this in every industry. But all you can do is live up to your potential. When you’re not aligned with your purpose or in an environment that is supportive, it can tear you down. The universe has a way of making sure you’re on the proper path for you. IMO, I think it’s time for you to seek opportunities outside of retail.

    8. LCL*

      Maybe you are running into a little bit of prejudice on the part of your managers? I don’t know where you are, you say there is a large group of Italians and Balkans at your location. Every place I have seen in the US, where there are a lot of first gen immigrants there is always some friction between different groups. And language is one of those hot button issues. The animal part of our brain is made just a touch uneasy when others around us switch languages. I’m not defending this reaction.

      Unfortunately I have no solution. But please finish your education and continue to help others in their native language if you can. The world needs more people like you.

    9. MC*

      Yeah – the humblebrag was my thought too. If you’re regularly talking grad school talk – you need to learn to code switch. Yeah, it’s often used in more ethnic or cultural situations, but there’s no reason why you have to say “In the early dawn, when I open my eyes, I consider the light an assault on that moment between sleep and wakefulness” when you’re just trying to say “God, getting up early Suuuuucks.” Use fewer words. Smile more. Ask for help. Don’t offer ideas on how to improve things. Just keep your head down. I don’t know if this reflects your situation, but it just sounds like you believe you’re smarter than everyone you work with and that is shining through. You very well may be, but you also may be working with people who are highly intelligent but didn’t have the same opportunities.

    10. Somniloquist*

      I like what everyone else said and it could be all that too, but another question I have is… would you characterize yourself as acting a little more Eastern European than what’s traditionally understood as “American”?

      I lived in the former USSR and also now in an area with lots of Eastern European immigrants and I’ve noticed that there is a distinctive difference in interaction culturally between the two groups. For Americans this comes across as “snobbish” or “mean” even though to me it’s clear that the person is being perfectly polite. And in retail, I think there’s this need to have all the super-positive/friendly aspects of American culture amped up in a way that’s not relevant in other industries.

      I guess my point is that it could be that people in a more international setting might be a better fit for you.

      1. OP*

        If asked, I would say I am Australian but half Albanian, half Croatian (the Italian comes from the fact that because it is widely understood in Albania because of historical reasons and a lot of pop culture in Albania comes from Italy).

        I would definitely say my personality is much more Balkan than Australian. I only have the one parent (my father peaced out before I was born) and was largely raised by my grandparents while she worked. So while I grew up here, personality wise, I am much more Balkan than Australian. People from the Balkans are not necessarily rude, but we are not as ‘suffocatingly’ super positive and friendly as Australians and I do question whether what seems perfectly polite to me, is seen as rudeness by others. But it doesn’t explain why my co-workers generally have no issue with me while managers do.

        1. Skippy*

          I got along with 100% of my coworkers when I worked retail. We were all on the same rung of the ladder, and that tends to result in better relationships (though not always, as this website can attest to!) There were two managers I didn’t get along with, and it was because they had a certain level of deference they wanted and I just couldn’t give it to them. I could fake it with other managers who were slightly less insufferable, but with these two, they were just so obnoxious and overbearing that I couldn’t do it. And I paid the price. On days when they were working, I got shitty assignments because I just could not give them the level of ass-kissing and fakery they required. Other people could, and they got better assignments. I got better at dealing with one of them (luckily the other left) as time went on, and I was better able to figure out what I needed to do to pretend I cared enough for her.

          Did it feel somewhat degrading to essentially change everything about myself while I was at work, dealing with management and the public? Certainly. I’m also an introvert who dislikes talking to strangers, hates upselling and hates having to “perform”. But I needed a job and it was the only place I could get one, so I did it.

          Retail is a crazy, involved game. It’s way more than just assisting customers or making a sale. There are people who are absolutely made for retail, there are people who 100% can’t do it and there are people who can fake it enough to muddle through. Ain’t no shame in not wanting to play the game. I played it for too long and hated nearly every minute of it.

          1. OP*

            The problem is……I’m trapped in it because for years, it was the only part time casual work I could get. Now I don’t have the experience to change into something else.

            1. Skippy*

              I’m certain you can parlay it into something else. I did retail for five years after graduating college and I was able to use the experiences I gained there to do something completely different. It’s all about spin.

            2. irritable vowel*

              You could absolutely get other work, especially on your university campus. For example, the library will have jobs available that would be great for people with customer service experience — staffing the circulation desk and so on. They will look very highly on someone with retail experience who knows how to speak professionally and calmly to users from a wide variety of backgrounds. But it is a scholarly atmosphere, not retail-oriented. These are hourly, casual positions for students. (This is my field so I know what I’m talking about!)

          2. OP*

            And it’s frustrating that the problem is essentially not with my actual work. I can talk to customers fine when I don’t have to be set to ‘cheerleader’ status and can talk normally. I don’t love it, but I can do it.

            The problem is that the majority of retail managers seem to be petty egomaniacs who can’t handle the fact that ‘the Albanian girl with the name no one can spell’ doesn’t kiss their ass enough and make them feel like they are as important as Obama.

            1. Skippy*

              I mean, you’re going to run into these kinds of people in all sectors of work, they’re not just lurking in retail. There are going to be times where you’re going to have to either genuinely be enthusiastic about things people outside your line of work find inane or boring, or you’re going to have to fake it to appease the higher-ups. You have a better shot of actually being enthusiastic if you work somewhere where you care about the minutiae.

            2. Skippy*

              Also, I would say it’s not so much making the manager feel like King Shit as it is making them believe you truly care about what they care about (the shipment all made it out to the floor, so we don’t have to have to spend the payroll paying the stockroom manager overtime/we exceeded the sales goal so next year corporate will give us some extra payroll hours this time of the year/etc). There are some people who do genuinely care about that stuff that aren’t in management, bless them. It seems that in your store, at least, not giving management these big shows of emotion leads them to believe that you don’t care how the store does or you’re just there for your paycheck, which, you know, nothing wrong with that, but it isn’t going to endear you to anyone or get you the plum assignments. So, I repeat what I said above. Management wants X. You’re not giving them X. Do you want to give them X, do you want to look for a different line or work or do you want to complain and definitely have nothing change? Those are pretty much the options, at least from what I am seeing.

              1. Anonyhippo*

                Yes. Skippy is pointing out your options correctly. You are going to have to adapt or look elsewhere.

            3. Not So NewReader*

              Wow, OP.

              It sounds to me like you really hate your retail managers. You know if you are able to say things like you are saying in your last paragraph here, you have a recipe for failure. Your own anger is getting in the way here.

              What steps are you willing to take THIS WEEK to get yourself into a different job setting? Trapped people are angry people, OP. And I can hear, “I am trapped!”, in your writing.

              You CAN make the jump, OP. You can find a basic office job somewhere, entry level, it will not be any worse than what you are doing now and it will put you more on a path that you will feel some small amount of progress. Just make the jump. That job is hard to find, but that is NOT the same as saying it’s impossible to find. Look for that job on a regular basis until you find it. Someone WILL hire you.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                Yes, and I guarantee this attitude is not just internal. People are seeing it to some degree and maybe this is what’s causing the animosity.

                Retail does have a lot of transferable skills, OP. This is really good advice. And good luck.

    11. Marisol*

      1) this is something you will have to ask friends who know you personally because there are too many variables to account for in this thread to get a good read on how you come across. Although, I have a dim sense that your emotional reserve is the problem, and that you know this already. If you want to be more like your Balkan side, that’s perfectly fine, but not everyone will be able to relate to you on your terms.

      2) why do you give a shit if a retail manager hates you? Are you losing your job over it? If not, then let them hate you. This work isn’t your life’s goal.

      3) why are you bothering with retail jobs in the first place? find a more suitable part-time job.

      4) if you insist on working retail AND knowing why some manager hates you…then ask the manager. Take him/her aside and say this, “I think I am doing something to annoy you, and it’s not my intention. What can I do differently so that you are not mad at me?” Keep the question simple and only deviate from this script a tiny bit, if at all.

      5) do the “spring cleaning” exercise as taught by Regina Thomashauer: http://www.mamagenas.com/where-women-store-garbage/

    12. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Here is my take…it is probably a combination of several factors.
      #1 Jealousy is probably part of it but another part is that it sounds like you make it pretty clear that you don’t really care about that job (I get why and understand that you are committed to doing good work there but will leave in a heartbeat if something better comes along). A lot of times managers can get dinged when their turnover is high – it isn’t common in retail but can happen – and they know you will be leaving and it takes time and money to train someone.
      #2 Maybe just knowing how smart you are makes them feel dumb. That can eat at a person when just having a simple conversation with someone can make them feel inferior. And it might not even be something you are saying but just the ease at which you talk about certain things. The manager who thought switching to a customer’s language was showing off is probably an example of this. You were able to help this person and you might be the reason that customer continues to return to the store. They can’t take credit for that and know that its possible that they would not have been able to help the customer as you did.
      3# Based on your initial post (but not your follow-ups) it is possible you are coming across, however unintentional, as a bit above everyone else. Its pretty obvious that you don’t really feel like that but your speech patterns might give off that vibe.

      I really like one of the other posters suggestions to look into higher-end retail or service jobs. My initial thought was check out the front desk or shops in whatever the fanciest hotel was in your area. Your language skills would be of a huge benefit to a place that catered to high end customers especially those from all around the globe.

      1. Skippy*

        A hotel sounds like a good one! I was thinking of the centralized Guest Services booths at some of the higher end shopping malls in my home state – the place where you go for a map of the mall, general information, or to pick up coupon books or perks for out-of-state or out-of-country visitors. A tourism office or chamber of commerce might also be a place to check out, as language skills could be very beneficial there as well.

    13. Is it Friday Yet?*

      It’s hard to give you advice without seeing your interaction with customers and your managers, but this is what came to mind for me. Take this with a grain of salt, but I find it particularly frustrating when people cut me off or interrupt me because they have an idea. You mention that you speak several languages and you enjoy helping customers when they need it because you speak their language, but your manager seems annoyed. Well, did they ask for your help?

      Maybe they were getting along just fine. It gets VERY annoying when you never have an opportunity to problem solve because someone else keeps solving the problem without giving you the opportunity to try.

      If you find yourself relating to this, I am not saying you need to pretend to be less intelligent than you are. Just give others an opportunity to ask for your advice or help.

      1. OP*

        On every occasion I have used another language with a customer, I was either initially serving them myself and sense the struggle and that they were Albanian/Italian/Croatian/Macedonian/Serbian etc and let them know I speak that language and they all were happy to use that language. OR a co-worker (ie, someone on my level) has come to me and said ‘Hey OP, I have a customer who needs help but she doesn’t much English but she’s Albanian/Italian/etc, can you help her’ and I have gone and done it. I don’t go and interrupt and start doing it, never! When the manager was annoyed, it was because she heard me speaking my languages and made a comment about how ‘If Wogs (derogatory term for Mediterranean immigrants) want to come here, they need to learn English. Let them sink or swim, I’m sick of foreigners coming here and not assimilating’. So I do suspect some racism is at play.

        I DO find it annoying when I see a co-worker or a manager is completely struggling with a customer I could assist but is too proud to come and ask for my help though. I don’t interrupt but it upsets me for the customer because they are the one having to struggle though because of their pride. But I still don’t go interrupt.

        1. Skippy*

          This is a very different statement than what you said above. Earlier you said the manager was upset with you using another language because they felt you were “showing off”, i.e. thinking you were better than them because you spoke another language. If they’re upset that you’re using another language because they’re racist toward Mediterraneans, that’s a different story and one you should take up with HR or corporate, if those options are available to you.

    14. TL -*

      So I also thought that read as a humble-brag and if I had to guess, I imagine that you’re talking to your managers like you would talk to your professors or white collar bosses. (And, if you’re at all frustrated, it’s coming off in a manner that says: I know I’m smarter than you; I know you’re struggling to keep up.)
      If that’s the case – that’s really rude and you need to learn how to talk to people in a way commiserate with your immediate environment. It’s not “dumbing down,” it’s deliberately and kindly choosing a common parlance, exactly like offering to switch languages for a customer.

      Your language should reflect that of the people around you – not match but be reasonably similar in formality and depth of vocabulary. Your point in speaking (especially at work) is to be easily understood and they shouldn’t have to closely parse your language for, at best, a minimal gain in clarity.

      Now, if a high-falutin’ turn of phrase or big word is the clearest way to say something, that’s what you say. But 90% of the time, it ain’t, and you can say it quicker and easier with simpler words.

      1. aebhel*

        I’ve always wondered how this is supposed to work, because… I’ve had people get pissed at me for using words they couldn’t understand, and I’ve been told to ‘stop talking like you think you’re smarter than everybody’, but I don’t really get what that’s supposed to mean? I don’t use a heightened register to sound smart, it’s just how I speak. I don’t deliberately use words that people don’t understand, because that’s asshole behavior, but it’s not always clear to me where the line is between obfuscating and being condescendingly simplistic.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I wrestled with similar stuff for years. I was an only child and interacted mostly with adults so I had their vocabulary.

          Enter my wise friend. My wise friend said to look at the person in front of you, consider their level of understanding about a topic, do not go more than half a level above their level of understanding.

          This is very clear when you are a rocket scientist talking to a 10 year old. You can quickly get a handle on how much they know about space exploration and explain some interesting things to the child.

          With adults it is not so easy.

          First you have to figure out if they are even interested.
          Then you have to figure out how much background they do have.

          Until you can figure these things out, you copy them. You match their level of interaction. If you find out they are interested and you find out their background AND you realize that your background is greater that is when the half level rule kicks in. You talk half a level above them.

          aebhel, I hope you chuckle. My father was one of the smartest people I have ever met. He spoke very simply and he absolutely blew people away with his insights and his thoughts on matters. He had many US patents to his credit. He spoke simply because he could not hear nuances in the pronunciation of larger words. Compounding his problems, when he went to school kids learned to read by memorizing the spelling of words. Kids were not taught to sound words out. This meant the man had to memorize the dictionary in order to read and write. Kind of mind-bending, I think. The irony was not lost on me here was this very, very smart person who rarely used words that had more than three syllables.

          However, I saw with him that having an extensive vocab is worthless if no one knows what you just said. People understood him, all kinds of people with all kinds of backgrounds.

          Watch for the deer-in-the-headlights look, if you see it then back track and restate what you just said in different words.
          Watch the pacing of your conversations. There is a rhythm to conversation. If the person you are talking with misses a beat, the might be a clue that they may have not understood something you just said. Likewise if a person starts a sentence slowly such as “uhh… well… I think……”

          Be open to questions and ask questions yourself. One of the best ways to get people to calm down is by asking Qs and answering Qs. If the person is still puzzled, use examples if you can. People like a story or an example from real life.

          Once in a great while you might meet someone who is just going to be snotty no matter how hard you try to be amicable. I remember a boss that flipped out on me because I used the word “gibberish”. Yep. She was screaming that I was talking over her head. It puzzled me because it’s very important to me to answer people’s questions where I can. If she had just asked me what the word “gibberish” meant I would have answered that question, no prob. This is how we all learn. That boss and I did not have a good relationship to begin with and the vocab thing was the last straw for her. Sometimes we can’t repair the situation. Hopefully, you don’t meet too many of these people.

        2. TL -*

          Not So NewReader has a good point. No more than half a level above the person you’re

          Ask yourself two questions: 1) am I choosing the right word or am I choosing the “better” word, where the better word is larger/more obscure or esoteric?
          2) is my vocabulary consistent with the language choices of the people I’m talking to? If you’re having to define more than 1 word/every 2-3 conversations, take it down a level.

          Think about language as a means of communicating clearly, rather than about a precision tool or an art form.

          2. aebhel*

            That’s kind of the thing: I don’t choose the ‘better’ word–I don’t deliberately pick words because they’re longer or more esoteric, but it’s not always clear to me that particular words are esoteric. I’ve had people tell me to stop using words that most people don’t know, but… how am I supposed to know whether or not someone knows a particular word? They’re all just words.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        “So I also thought that read as a humble-brag and if I had to guess, I imagine that you’re talking to your managers like you would talk to your professors or white collar bosses. (And, if you’re at all frustrated, it’s coming off in a manner that says: I know I’m smarter than you; I know you’re struggling to keep up.)”

        OP, there are all different kinds of intelligence. People smarts is something you are going to need to survive in most workplaces. I hate retail myself and I can’t find too much positive to say. I survived in that environment by asking myself what does the boss need from me today? That is not kissing butt, OP. Almost any job will require that the employee meet the boss’ work performance needs. And by extension, if we are doing what the boss wants we get to keep our jobs and we might even get good evals. If you look at any job as kissing butt, you can almost expect a rocky road in your near future.

        Jobs can be a tug of war OR a give and take. We have to pick one. We can only have one.

        My first boss gave me a pearl of wisdom I have kept. “With any job part of what you are being paid for is your willingness to get along with others. Most employers will NOT tell you this, but they will check you on this point regularly.”

        Honestly, as mentioned above, I think the person you are really angry with is yourself. For some reason you believe you have become trapped in the retail environment and you don’t want be there. OP, when we let ourselves down that is a bigger let down than any boss or cohort could ever give us. I think that your need to prove to the bosses that you are smart is actually a need to prove it to yourself. Stop using their eyes as your mirror and take a serious look at what it will take to change your setting.

        You know, on the good news side of things, there is a massive amount of brilliant minds reading this blog. Go ahead, start to take some steps and ask the hive mind here for tips as you go along.

        1. OP*

          Your second point is the first thing I was thinking as I was reading.

          The economy crashed in August 2008. I graduated from my law degree in February 2009 as I had to finish off a summer class because I a problem with a transfer credit from my exchange year. The only law graduates in Australia getting jobs in 2009 and 2010, were those who made a deal with the devil or those who had connections who’d get them a job (parents/parents friends/etc etc). I couldn’t even get a retail job.

          So I went back to Uni in March 2011 and did a masters. A lot of young graduates in Australia did the same…..tried to ‘hide it out’ by doing more school because it beat being unemployed. After that, it still took me a while to pick up legal work. I graduated November 2012, only got work in the legal field in August 2014. Worked retail. HATED it. Felt pressured to agree to train as a manager to ‘keep’ my job and show interest. Hated it. I quit my retail job literally 5 minutes after getting the call about the law job and was so rash I even left them in the lurch by saying I wouldn’t do all my notice (a month since I was assistant manager) to go to the Soccer World Cup in Brazil while it was on as a reward to myself and I WAS FREEEEEE. I feel a little bad about it in retrospect.

          Now. My point.

          Please don’t take this as classist, but I hated myself for ‘having to’ take that retail job. It was actually a real blow to my self esteem and and it felt like a slap in the face. I did everything right. I studied my ass off in high school to get accepted into law as an undergraduate. While my friends went on holidays and going to music festivals and going out every weekend, I was doing internships or essays or studying. It was all for nothing. My masters degree cost me $50,000. it was for nothing too because all it got me was a retail job I could have gotten without even graduating high school. I had to take the law degree I’d worked so hard for off my resume and it felt like a slap in the face to my hard work. I was doing a job that they’ll let 15 year olds do on the school holidays (before the management) and could have ‘saved myself’ the $100,000 HECS repayments and UGH WHY AM I EVEN ALIVEEEEE!!

          I probably did a lot of humblebragging too back then about my law degree and the fact I did a summer program at Oxford and lived in Paris for a year (study abroad) and yes I do speak French, wanna hear? What do you want me to say? Oh and my mother is from Poland, so I can speak that too! *says something.

          90% of it was not to show off to my retail colleagues, but me trying to convince myself that I wasn’t stupid. I was still smart. The things I worked so hard for MATTERED and my crime was not being stupid, or not working hard, it was being born into generation ‘screwed’ where there was no good opportunities for graduates anymore. I needed to constantly reassure myself I was still smart. I’m really not proud to admit this, but i felt like i ‘deserved better’. I held up my end of the deal that the adults gave me: good grades, hard work, internships, a year abroad……and you’ll get me a job. And then when I was like ‘ok, I held up my end of the bargain, where’s that job you promised me’ and they went LOL JK, YOU COULD TRY TARGET?

          I see a lot of OP in myself with her comment. To a lot of people, she was probably bragging. To her, she’s likely subconsciously like ‘Ok. I’m still studying, I’m still smart even though I am doing this job a trained money could do, I’m not stupid, I’m smart, I’m worthy, I won’t be doing this forever, It will be OK’ because she’s felt like she’s gotten stuck in retail as her ‘side’ job to support her studies and hates it and feels like working there makes her feel stupid.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Ahh, back to my wise friend. He said we are SUPPOSED to question what we are doing with our lives and our work. And yes, this can involve kicking ourselves in the butt, it can get pretty nasty. But this is supposed to happen.

            We have to have things in life that propel us forward. Sometimes motivation comes from that annoying little voice or thought that says, “I can do better than this.” In a healthy person, this is NORMAL. See, healthy people don’t want to just survive they want to THRIVE.

            If someone turns that into elitism, that is not the intended purpose for the internal nagging. So that would be a misuse of our internal guiding system. We are not supposed to turn our internal pep talks/nagging into abusing others.

            It could be just my opinion, I think that getting a degree requires a VERY different skill set than the skill set required to launch our careers. It’s like going through a warp of sorts and the mind has to totally shift gears and look at job hunting for a different perspective than the perspective used for acquiring a degree.

            Okay, this can get exhausting. Now add to that bad economy and bunches of other stuff and people can feel broken on the inside. Totally devastated.

            So where am I going here:

            It’s perfectly normal to want to thrive.
            It’s perfectly normal to realize we are not where we “should” be.
            Our own anger can and will sink us.
            It’s fine to be angry, most certainly, you and OP and others have stories that show life has been wildly unfair.
            It’s what we do with that anger that makes us or breaks us.
            Self care is super important.

            When the chips are down invest in yourself. Whatever that means to you. Honestly, this has gone into tangents for me where I had to invest in learning about my own personal experiences in life and resolving some of them. Yes, I had to do that to deal with some anger about our crappy economy and my so-called valuable degree. We can only carry so much anger. It’s good to set down as many suitcases of anger as we can and walk away from them.
            It’s also good to learn about grief. Oh. A symptom of grief is, you guessed, anger. Grieve the fact that life has not been fair with you. Sit down and cry.

            It’s one thing if the economy defeats us or other people defeat us. It’s a whole different problem if we defeat ourselves by failing to invest in ourselves. Look around, what can you do today that would help you to feel a little stronger in the long run? And tomorrow ask yourself the same question. Keep investing in yourself daily until your setting changes. Education is only one way of investing in ourselves. There are hundreds of other ways.

        2. (Not) OP*

          Ugh, sorry about the OP in the username!

          I was replying as the OP of another comment I made and forgot to change it. *fail*.

    15. Rebeck*

      You’re coming up against that great Australian tradition, tall poppy syndrome. It’s a much bigger thing here than in the US, and it is REAL.

    16. LENEL*

      Hi OP,

      I am also in Australia, have a similar educational background to you (Law/Criminology & Criminal Justice), I don’t have your incredible language skills though. I am now working professionally in a tangental field and spent 10 years working in a family run service store where I was assistant/Manager and trainer.

      It sounds like something you’re doing unintentionally – probably a combination of factors – is putting your Managers backs up rightly or wrongly. Without seeing you in action as others have said, it’s hard to provide direct advice to you but here are a few things I have learned working in retail and then transitioning to State and now Local Government jobs:

      – Things like the difference between responding “well” and “good” to people who ask you how you are today in retail matter. I used to get side eye from customers replying ‘well’, it’s still ingrained to say ‘good’ now and I’m trying hard to switch back. Adjusting generally to your environment can be really valuable – even now people get their backs up if they perceive that I’m holding myself above them in professional settings. Others have made some really good comments on this.

      – Your managers may be career retail people who have special skill sets and in many cases may be invested in retail as a long term career – their goals are really important to them and may be the difference between a bonus/promotion for them or stalled career progression. They need to be able to get excited about important milestones for the business, and it is important for their staff to get excited too as part of the team. They know it’s not a long term job for part timers and uni students are a large proportion of retail workers, but while you’re at work I know they would hope you treat the business like its goals are your own. (I’m picking up on a comment later in the thread – I’m not saying you’re not hard working or doing this, but the perception that you’re not there fully, or appreciative of the work, or focused on the same goals is what’s important here).

      – There *could* be an element of jealousy, tall poppy syndrome, or a perception you think you’re ‘too good’ to work there present. It’s not an easy dynamic to decode. But you know what? It doesn’t matter what it is. No matter where you go, there will be people who rub you up the wrong way. As much as possible, identify it but don’t get too caught up in the anxiety trap, often you might never be able to identify why people don’t like you or what’s causing friction without directly asking and even then you may not get an answer. And that’s okay. What’s more important is to keep acting professionally, courteously and to make sure you are aware of your tone and as far as possible how your behaviour can be perceived.

      – As a fellow anxiety-sufferer, I get it. I recently had an interpersonal problem with a coworker which never resolved and was exacerbated by a boss who was lovely but not a manager (and of course was also excellent friends with co-worker). And you know what? There wasn’t anything I could do to make her like me. I resorted to being professional, as courteous as possible (because there’s only so much you can do when people won’t respond to you when you say ‘good morning’) and thanked my lucky stars that she left. I am relatively sure that part of the reason you’ve been so detailed is that you’re thinking really hard about what the reasons could be that you’re being reacted to in the way you are and have analysed them in great detail and tried to come up with as many reasons as possible why this could be the case. Been there, done that. Introspection is good, but too much can drive you crazy. Try to let it go.

      – You might be able to be proactive here. Is there a previous manager you have gotten on best with who you can reach out to for some feedback? This might give you a way forward and some things to work on improving, if there are any. Look at co-workers who get along really well with the Managers. Why is that? Is it because they’re really outgoing? Is it because they constantly check in for feedback? Is it because they offer to take extra shifts, or are happy to stay for 15 minutes each shift changeover to hand over and make sure everything is running smoothely?

      – Have you checked with your Managers they want you providing assistance in other languages for reasons rather than xenophobic ones? It’s possible they are concerned about setting the businesses level of service too high. It sounds counter-intuitive, but are you setting up an expectation that translation services will be available when they will not be after you do leave? This could be somewhat of a side issue, but some managers don’t want to see this level of initiative before they have a chance to think something through and consider impacts on the business.

      – Retail might just not be your thing, and that’s okay! You might be able to pick up some part time work as a legal secretary or translator for a law firm where they have ESL clients and that might be better suited to your long term career goals and your undergrad background.

      I really, truly wish you all the best moving forward. I hope that you can build a better relationship with your manager or find something else to support yourself during your Masters and into your chosen career path!

      1. Lia*

        That’s an interesting point about languages, but as someone who is also first generation in her country and has 2 grandparents out here who struggle very much with English. People from immigrant backgrounds don’t expect translation services unless it is explicitly advertised (like government departments here provide translation services upon request). They are aware that if they go into a store or whatever and the person behind the counter can speak to them in their native language, it’s a lucky coincidence they are from a similar background and can speak Greek/Italian/Vietnamese/etc etc.

    17. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I had the same read as HotelGM and TL—I don’t think they’re jealous/intimidated. I think you may be coming off as arrogant/condescending.

      This isn’t just a code-switching issue. It sounds like you may be giving off the vibe that you’re too good for retail or too smart, too ambitious, etc. That kind of interaction inherently signals to your managers that you don’t value their career choices. Most folks in retail know that it’s a common “side job” for students, not their career, and they don’t penalize you for having a different career path in mind. But as a lot of the comments responding to your post highlight, white-collar professionals or individuals with a college education often erroneously assume retail employees are lower class, low-achieving (“lacks ambition”), or lack formal higher education credentials (i.e., a BA/BS)… And they let it show.

      Even if you think you’re being super kind and doing your job well, it’s very possible that you’re unintentionally telegraphing that you think you’re smarter than them more accomplished, or have made “better” life choices. Any of those things would be obnoxious, and even more so from a subordinate. So maybe think about your interactions with your managers. Do you challenge their authority? Suggest that they’re doing their jobs ineffectively? Question their choice of policy without giving it a try or trying to understand why they implemented it? Passive aggressively ask questions that suggest you think they’re not very smart? Or are you overly obsequious, in a way that could be interpreted as sarcastic or condescending/smarmy?

  12. Folklorist*

    ANIT-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! I can’t come up with something pithy this time because I’m in a crunch, so let’s just get to it! Do something you’ve been putting off and come back and tell us about it! Get that load off your chest!

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      I just performed a QA check on two e-books that are not written well but hey I’m just doing my job. Thanks for the nudge!

    2. Tea*

      Just finished writing up the last of the procedures for a coworker to cover for me while I’m out for vacation next week!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I wasn’t at work yesterday because appointments, but I did log on for a couple of hours to check in and deal with any lingering things from Thursday. *ugh* My boss had sent me 20 emails of a thing I do and it took me all day to get through them, while simultaneously trying to help someone deal with a problem that wasn’t really mine to handle. Bright side–the two hours meant I only had to enter 6 of PTO instead of 8. :)

  13. overcaffeinatedqueer*

    So I have an open thread question:

    While I was waiting to get licensed as a lawyer, I worked for a temp agency. They handled getting people into the jobs and all, and were generally good.

    However, for one assignment that would give some downtime during work, the emails and paperwork repeatedly said, “do not discuss religion/politics/sexual orientation issues at work.” Fine, you don’t want debates; I get it.

    But, I’m a married queer lady. So, normal small talk often means revealing I have a wife, but due to being told the above, I felt I couldn’t be out at all, and I felt uncomfortable not correcting people who thought I had a husband. And I really needed the money and didn’t want to be out to the temp agency either so I didn’t ask “do I get to exist then?”

    Has anyone come across a similar rule? What should I have done?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I would read that more as “don’t discuss whether same-sex marriage should (continue to be) legal, don’t discuss the North Carolina law,” that sort of thing – you have a wife, it’s a simple fact – I feel like sticking to that should be OK. And really, that rule would make it harder for people to get belligerent about that fact, no?

    2. Murphy*

      I would assume that they mean extended discussion on the issues. Not that a person couldn’t reveal that they had a same sex partner or that they attended a church BBQ over the weekend. That being said, I understand why you might feel uncomfortable.

      1. overcaffeinatedqueer*

        Or both! I’m a queer Christian. It’s a pet peeve that people assume I’m not religious or that religious people are ALL anti gay.

        1. Liane*

          High five! Am a (straight) Christian and I don’t know which annoys me more: Religious people who ARE anti-gay or people who wrongly assume I must be anti-gay because I am Christian.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      I can’t answer what you “should” have done, but I think most people would agree acknowledging a fact about yourself is different than “discussing” it…I think it would just be a matter of gauging how conservative the office is on a case-by-case basis. If anyone were to get (weirdly and unreasonably) angry at you for mentioning a (constitutionally legal!) non-heterosexual spouse, you are learning a very, very valuable thing about that company.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Hmm, I think you might be taking that phrase too literally. It seems to me that they don’t want people fighting at work about these things, and they wrote “do not discuss XXX issues at work” – to me the word “issues”is important. They aren’t saying “don’t discuss your sexual orientation at work” – they are saying please don’t argue with coworkers about hot-button topics.

    5. Elle*

      I would read that as general discussion of the listed topics, vs. not being allowed to mention that you are married to a woman. To me, that’s not discussing “sexual orientation issues,” that’s mentioning an important part of your life. I guess if someone were to take the information about you and want to discuss it further, particularly in a negative way, that would fall under what they are concerned about.

    6. Jules the First*

      Well, I don’t read the ‘debates’ prohibition as forbidding you to talk about your wife – I’d have simply treated it as given that it was fine for me to talk about my wife (as it would have been fine to talk about my husband) knowing that I could use the ‘our employer has asked us not to indulge in LGBT issues debates at work’ if someone took unreasonable offence and tried to make it a big deal.

      But maybe I’ve worked in friendly spaces for too many years?

    7. Marzipan*

      I would read it as meaning ‘don’t bang on at length about your personal opinion about religion/politics/sexual orientation’, not as ‘you can never, ever mention these things, even at the expense of your own identity’. Like, let’s say someone was active in their church and spent their weekend organising the Sunday school picnic – I think if asked what they did that weekend, no-one is suggesting they can’t acknowledge it because it’s related to religion.

      I can understand your caution in the context you were dealing with, though!

    8. ZVA*

      Ugh. I can see why this made you uncomfortable; a rule like that—intentionally or not—politicizes your entire existence, and favors those who think that way by effectively forcing you back into the closet! I probably would have done exactly what you did.

    9. JMegan*

      I agree with everyone above, in that the rule was probably intended to prevent long debates about elections, bathroom laws, gay marriage, and so on. But the impact of that rule might be exactly what you thought – that it’s going to mean some people don’t feel safe participating in small talk about their weekends and so on.

      I’ve never been in that situation, but I like to think that if I had any other options I would explore those instead, and avoid any place where I felt like I had to hide my identity at work. If it came down to a choice of that job or no job…I would probably take the assignment, and get a feel for the office culture once I got there. Hopefully it would be better than that one data point would suggest.

    10. Agile Phalanges*

      I’m with the others, that they mean not to have discussions on the ISSUES surrounding those topics, not that you can’t BE gay or religious or whatever. So it’s okay to say “My wife and I went to the movies this weekend,” but NOT okay for your co-worker to reply “WHAT?!?! You have a WIFE? Isn’t there a law against that?” And it’s okay for Wakeen to say they went to church on Sunday or voted on Tuesday or even went to a Pride parade, but not okay for others to use it as a springboard to discuss those topics and their virtues and problems at length in the workplace. It still seems pretty restrictive if folks can be civilized, but if it’s customer-facing, I can see wanting to keep polarized views, no matter how politely they’re being discussed, out of the front office area.

    11. DragoCucina*

      In the same vein as other comments. It’s perfectly okay to mention your wife. What the directive from on high means is that the other employees have no standing to change you, save you, etc. They cannot have a loud around the water cooler that you are meant to over hear. So, rather than preventing you from talking about your life in a matter of fact way it is more of a protection. On the other hand it would prevent a lecture to someone eating Chick-Fil-A.

    12. Jessie*

      Perhaps the way to look at it is that the rule allows you to mention your family, just as someone married to an opposite-sex partner could. The rule should then prohibit anyone from arguing about your existence and your wife’s existence. I’m hoping the company means no one should be arguing over orientation and equal rights, as opposed to telling LGBTQ folks they have to be in the closet. After all, taking it any other way means they expect either no one to ever mention a spouse in a way that genders them, or that they demand any LGBTQ people must be in the closet. So assume it’s meant to stop arguments – not prevent small talk.

    13. Mreasy*

      I mean, straight is also a sexual orientation. So if they got letter of the law about it, anyone discussing any romantic relationships would be under the gun.

  14. Nony2016*

    Is anybody working in data science/analytics? I’m looking to get into the field (currently an outsider without much relevant experience). I’m planning on doing a master’s in the field starting in January but I’d like to at least find some entry level work. What do you do and what would be some of your advice for someone wanting to get into the field?

    1. PassingThrough*

      I’m also interested in this. I have a background in physics and completed a data science certificate, but I’m not having much luck finding work. It seems entry level data science positions are very rare (or they already expect you to have significant experience). I’ve also been trying for data analyst positions, but I’m wondering if I’m coming across as overqualified.

    2. JJJJShabado*

      Be sure you know how to code. R, Python are good free languages to know. S-Plus (R is similar to S-Plus, R is open sourced) and SAS are non-free languages of use. SQL is good to know as well.

      Coding itself is the skill. The knowledge of how to identify the issue and figure out how to solve it is important. I’m not directly in data science/analytics, but I provide coding support to analysis. We use SAS. I knew almost nothing about SAS (I looked to in it before applying). I took computer science courses (but was a math major) in college, so I knew some Java. My math and (limited) coding skills were able to translate. Learning syntax is easy, the mindset is more important.

      1. Newby*

        I have recently learned Python and am working on learning R. I would recommend starting with Python since it is one of the easier ones to start with if you do not have a computer background. There are also some very helpful “programming bootcamps” that you could sign up for. The most important thing is to work through some project to apply the concepts.

    3. Maya Elena*

      Look for jobs at insurance companies or marketing analytics jobs. They do a lot of “big data” and hire both entry-level and people from other fields.

    4. slick ric flair*

      I’m not technical myself, but I am in sales for a data company. The field is definitely growing quickly, and changes are happening fast. My advice would be to network while you’re in school – the school must have some association with companies active in your area.

    5. Meg*

      You can look at higher ed, too! (I’m a data analyst in higher ed.) Every place has its own quirks and preferences when it comes to coding languages/programs, but once you start learning one or two, it’s much easier to keep learning more. And even if you don’t use them as part of your current job, it’s helpful in interviews if you can say “I used Python to make this thing, just for fun” or “I use a complex Excel VBA system to keep track of my budgeting” or something like that to show that you actually know how to use them. Tableau is also really big right now in data science for analytics and visualization, so I’d look into that, as well!

    6. Analytics Manager*

      Even entry level analytics jobs are going to require some kind of relevant degree. Your masters will help a lot. We have hired people out of masters in analytics programs who didn’t have much other experience if they had a decent internship, could explain project work clearly and to a non-tecnical audience, and made thoughtful decisions in their analysis. I work in strategic analytics in the retail industry so we look for people with a good understanding of business. Engineering and science majors, while intelligent and having stats skills, are not going to get hired on my team unless they can demonstrate how to solve a business question (such as how much money should we invest in this business idea) using an analytical approach (such as design of experiments). It’s not only knowing how to build models and code, although you absolutely need those skills, but also knowing when to use which solution.

  15. Boom*

    Changes were announced recently and I’m finding out through the grapevine a few people I’m “work close” with won’t be here in the future.

    1. How do you talk to them? Do you let them tell you or is it more gracious to acknowledge you know?

    2. What do I say to those who ask me about it? My position is unique and I will likely get a lot of people asking about it or my opinion. I’m not going to share my opinion with most people but I might get asked by people senior to me not in my line of command (who will share their opinion which is probably the same as mine). Polite way to deflect?

    1. Leatherwings*

      1) As someone who just got laid off, please don’t make me tell you. It’s fine just to say “Hey, I’m sorry to hear you’ll be leaving us. It’s been nice working with you”

      2) Does “Hm, I’m not totally in the loop on that so I don’t really have any details.” work? Or will they know what you know? In that case maybe a breezy “I’m not sure I’m supposed to talk about that” will probably shut it down.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        If they’re somebody who you feel comfortable doing so with, I think offering to be a reference for any future job searches is particularly gracious, too.

    2. Random Lurker*

      OMG, this sucks so much. I’m sorry for you.

      1. When I knew it was coming, I shifted a lot of conversation to the mutual hatred of her boss (who was letting her go). That wasn’t a topic I had to fake around. I was mad as hell at him.

      2. I always answer this question with: Sometimes business decisions are made that may not make sense to us, but is done for a very good reason. I’m excited about XYZ opportunity coming up, so I’m trying to focus my energy on that.

      Good luck. I feel your pain.

  16. bassclefchick*

    Well, it’s almost a month into the new job and it’s going OK, I think. I’ve only cried twice. Sigh. Not the image I wanted to project, but anxiety will do that. I think this job might be an overall better fit for me, even though I really liked the other one. Here’s hoping this one lasts longer than a month

    Thanks, everyone, for the support and encouragement! They’re strict on internet usage here, so I might not see replies til later. But I will check tonight.

    2. Golden Lioness*

      All the best!
      I don’t know what I’d do if I could not randomly go on the net to check stuff during the day.

  17. Not Today Satan*

    Does anyone else feel like your employers totally disregard your experience from prior to joining the company? Overall I feel like I’m respected for my contributions I’ve made here, but overall I get the sense people act like this is my first job out of college, when I had 8 years professional experience before coming here. For example my manager might say that our department needs someone with expertise in X, and I’ll say, I did exactly that in my last role and am happy to help, but I’m totally ignored. It’s hard to describe.

    It really bothers me. I don’t know if the fact that I look young is a part of it.

    1. Not Karen*

      Definitely! I don’t have as much prior experience as you, but 3 years is more than nothing! I also look young, so maybe that’s related…

    2. Applesauced*

      Yes! I have 4 years experience prior to my current job and at my performance review my current job was referred to “XXX Company is like the Yankees, you were in the minor league before.”
      First of all, I’m from Boston so EW. Second, just …. ugh, way to belittle my previous work and inflate your own worth. Three months later this still irks me.

    3. Eddie Turr*

      I have about 5 years of experience and often feel like I’m treated as entry level. My mentor (who is assigned to me — I don’t know if we assign mentors to more senior hires) is always trying to offer to “train” me, like this is my first time doing this job. It would actually be more helpful if she included me in different stages of projects so I could get a better field for how my company and the industry (which is new to me) function.

      Someone told me this is kind of a thing until you’ve got around 10 years of experience (and, perhaps not coincidentally, finally look too old to be just out of school).

      1. Trig*

        Sounds like your company doesn’t have a very robust mentor training program, so your mentor isn’t sure what to do. Maybe next time your mentor offers to train you on something you already know, bring up the things you’d actually like guidance on? Like, “Well, I’ve been editing Teapot reports for a few years now, so unless you have any specific feedback about my work, I think I’ve got it covered. That said, I’ve been interested in learning more about the report planning phase to see how I can get involved before the kinds of errors I encounter occur; next time you have that kind of work, maybe you could include me?”

        And/or bring it up with your manager in a “By the way, I’m interested in doing more X. Is there someone I could shadow or a way I could get involved?”

        1. Eddie Turr*

          I think you’re right that my mentor isn’t quite sure what to do… and the person who had my job before me was far more green, so she probably got the opportunity to have more “this is how it’s done” sessions with him. We have definitely talked about training me on specific clients (with extremely specific style guides and industry-specific, technical stuff going on) and getting me into meetings to learn how the rest of the agency operates. I need to be more persistent in making sure that actually happens.

          I hate how all my Ask a Manager problems boil down to “You should be more assertive and follow up with people” because it’s my least favorite thing to do.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Ooh, that happened to me at my last job. They hired me specifically because they were looking for people with experience– I had 8 years on the client side and over 10 of professional experience. I also had management experience, which no one else on my level had. And it was very, very difficult. I came in knowing I had a ton to learn but also that I had a background that would help. They would take advantage of some things about my experience but not others. If I disagreed with something based on my expertise, my opinion was often completely discounted. I felt like I wasn’t able to grow at all because what I had done before wasn’t respected, and honestly, it became really hard for me to operate at a “lower” level when I had spent so many years near the top. How to get through it? I think you have to decide if you’re ok with the way things are, because it’s unlikely that they’ll decide to listen to you one day.

      I know my own experience colors this, but it sucks and I’m sorry.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        Ugh :( Yeah tbh today I’m feeling extra irritable about my job. I haven’t been here long enough to start looking, but I think in a year or so I’ll have to.

    5. misspiggy*

      Another time it would be worth pitching your knowledge when that type of issue comes up. ‘I was lead on such and such for x years, and I found it really helps to (insert suitably impressive technical strategy here).’ Don’t ask for the work, wait for them to come and ask you, and accept like you’re graciously doing them a favour.

    6. Roza*

      This drives me crazy as well. It’s even more fun because I do specialized, technical things that only one or two other people at the company can actually do…but anyone who’s been there longer than five years or so will assume they know more about it than me because I am New and therefore an idiot. Also, even though there’s an entire academic subfield devoted to the sort of teapot analysis I do, this company is the only entity with any knowledge of it.

      I also wonder if part of it is that this is a small company in a niche field, and all of the senior people have been here forever, and for many of them it was their first or second job out of school. They just haven’t experienced anything else, so they don’t realize there is anything else out there…?

    7. Lemon Zinger*

      Absolutely. I am only a couple years out of college, but my work experience in college was highly relevant to my current job. When I was hired, everyone assumed that I knew nothing about the field. Irritating, but I got through it and now I’ve been here over eight months and am treated as a veteran in the office.

    8. zora.dee*

      Yeah, I’m having this problem at my current job, too. I know I took an admin job, but I am older than many of my coworkers, I have almost 20 years of work experience, and I have worked extensively in events for many years. But whenever I offer to help with event planning, or other more complex stuff, I just get ignored. And then when I’m asked to do some really simple admin task, I get a 20 minute step by step explanation over the phone. Yeah, I know how to use file sharing sites, I could have done that without needing a whole training on it.

      I worry it’s because I look young too? I don’t have advice, I wish I knew what to do.

    9. hbc*

      Oh, yes, all the time. The number of times someone has condescendingly explained something to me about R&D and I’m like “Yeah, I know, I was in R&D for 6 years, I know how it works.” I don’t expect them to have my resume memorized, but geez. Though it is delicious when I can innocently point out something technical they completely missed.

      The worst is when they have limited knowledge/capabilities and assume that everyone else must have less knowledge. You know when your great aunt figures out email and calls to explain in detail how you can attach pictures with The Google Mail? Story of my work life.

      1. zora.dee*

        Omg, your last example, exactly!! That happens here, too, “OMG EVERYONE, we figured out how to do a WebEx!! Let’s spend 30 minutes going over it in minute detail!” And no amount of telling everyone that I have used WebEx before and I could have showed them how it works gets through…

    10. Cat steals keyboard*

      My otherwise great employer makes everyone attend a quarterly training course about understanding teapots. Fine for all the people who aren’t teapot experts and need to understand them but for my team our entire job is to be teapot experts. Knowing about teapots is an essential requirement and I was hired partly for my teapot expertise. And here’s the killer bit: a couple of people in my team just checked all the documentation for the teapot awareness course. Without having attended it yet. But they still need to go on it…

    11. Yetanotherjennifer*

      I haven’t, but my husband has. He was hired in part based on the knowledge he gained in his masters program and now that he’s on the job he’s not considered knowledgeable enough in that same area. It’s the company culture; they have more respect for the skills of outsiders.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Definitely yes.

      I doubt this is any consolation, but age has nothing to do with it. I was 47 when I took a new job. They made it abundantly clear that they did. not. want. to. hear. a single thing about any previous jobs I had.

      Even good employers can blow off some aspects of previous learning.

      A few handy rules of thumb I have used:

      1) Don’t say, “at my old job, we did it this way…” EVER. Just don’t use that phrase, they seem to shut right down. If you realize a situation can be handled more than one way just ask “how do you want me to handle this?”

      2)If you have good ideas from your old job WAIT before presenting them. Just watch what they are doing for a while and do things their way.

      3) When you finally decide to go for it, you decide to tell them Old Place had a great idea, present it as your own idea. “Hey you know, I was wondering, would it be okay if I combined step A and B together, I think I could save about an hour everyday if I combine the two.” Notice how I never claimed it was my original idea, I don’t like to claim things that aren’t mine. So I chose my wording accordingly.

      4) If you have an idea of how someone else could do their job differently, let it go. Not your circus, unless you are their boss.

  18. Jules the First*

    I’m happy dancing inside: there are no less than two awesome companies who are interested in me and want to do final stage interviews next week!

    I had an absolutely fantastic intervew this morning (the interviewer’s feedback used four ! and a smiley face) and they want to set up a second interview next week. She also complimented my resume saying it was the best one she’d seen in the last three years and that I did an awesome job of selling myself on paper. Thank you Alison!!

  19. Isben Takes Tea*

    What are your thoughts in working with felons?

    If you’re an employer/hiring manager will works with programs to help find felons (ex-felons?) a job, how do you approach it with the rest of your staff?

    If you’re an employee, how would you want it handled?

    If you have a felony, how would you want a prospective workplace to handle it?

    1. Lily in NYC*

      It really depends on what the felony was for. If it was for something non-violent, I don’t think it’s any of my business.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep. And a felon is someone who did something crappy and went through the system. I’m sure I work with people who did equally crappy things and either bought their way out of the system or were never caught. It’s not my business.

        1. Jadelyn*

          For that matter, they might not have done anything all that crappy – it’s terrifyingly easy to get caught in splash damage if someone close to you did something, especially given the racial disparities in the system and how it disproportionately targets certain populations.

      2. Manders*

        Ditto. I don’t think I’d have any problems working with someone with a previous felony for drug possession, prostitution, theft, etc. if they were otherwise professional people. I’d feel weirder working with someone who had committed a violent crime or a hate crime, or someone whose work duties might allow them to repeat that crime (like an embezzler working as an accountant).

        1. Natalie*

          The amount of time that had passed and the age they were when they offended would matter a lot to me if it was something violent. 30 years ago and no violence since? Probably a changed person. Last year? Hmmm…..

          1. Manders*

            Yeah, I was having a hard time quantifying why some crimes wouldn’t bother me and some would. A guy who got into a bar brawl and hit someone too hard ten years ago: not fantastic, but I bet he’s changed since then. A guy who nearly beat his girlfriend to death last year: not someone I want to be stuck in the same room with for eight hours a day.

            The target of the violent crime would matter a lot to me, I think. Someone who hurt a smaller woman or a child, or targeted someone from a minority group on purpose, would make me much more uncomfortable than someone who got into a fight with a person their own size.

            But this is all based on gut feelings, not any data about who’s most likely to reoffend.

    2. Jax*

      Is it necessary to reveal to the staff that you’re hiring someone with a felony? Assuming that the felony wasn’t violent or doesn’t relate to the industry (say, tax fraud and an accounting firm, and then why would you consider this person?) then I don’t see why anyone should know. As an employee and also if I had a felony, I would hope that my future employer would use discretion with that information.

    3. Eddie Turr*

      I mean, Martha Stewart is a felon and people still hire her… I definitely wouldn’t want (or agree with) a blanket ban on hiring felons. I would want HR and other relevant people to take into account the charge and the details/nature of the crime, as well as the nature of the job, and assess the risk. I get that people love to create policies that make things cut and dry, but a manager’s job is to use good judgment.

    4. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Where I am, we aren’t allowed to ask the question until the final stage of hiring. Therefore, the hiring manager doesn’t know*, only HR and Legal. The Legal office reviews to make sure the nature of the felony (or misdemenor, because those come up too) is not a direct threat to the job (9 times out of 10, it’s not), and then get back to us.

      So, for example, someone who was convicted of embezzlement couldn’t work in our finance office, but would be fine in, say, an area that didn’t handle money.

      *This often holds up the process some – usually not a ton, but enough that the hiring manager is suspicious that this may be the cause.

    5. Wrench Turner*

      When the company I’m starting is formally organized and we’re ready to hire, I’m going to actively seek out former non-violent prisoners if I can. They’re human beings that need a job. They may have been prisoners, but they’ve paid their debt and are free like everyone else, so let’s put them to work. It’s that simple.

      1. DoDah*

        A nearby convenience store hires a lot of former gang members and felons. I “think” the owner was a Blood when he was young. Anywhoo–they are the nicest group of people–and bend over backward to provide excellent customer service.

        1. Wrench Turner*

          We cannot complain about revolving door prisons when we release people to the streets with literally nothing and nowhere to go, and then deny them housing and jobs. It’s crazy. No doubt there is a lot of job skills training and education that needs to happen, but they also need to be able to get jobs in the first place. There are grants/incentives to help employers do this.

    6. Golden Lioness*

      It depends on the type of felony, but most importantly in how you speak about the situation. If you can show genuine growth as a person and don’t try to speak defensively about your own actions (like trying to explain why it wasn’t all your fault), I think most people would respect that and won’t hold the felony against the applicant.

    7. Tendell*

      As an employee, for the m0st part I would figure it’s none of my business and try to treat them like any other coworker, with one exception–I’m female and work nights at a grocery store, and I would feel very uncomfortable if I found out that I was scheduled to work a night shift at the same time as a male (ex-?)felon at a time when there are only a few employees in the entire store. (There are cameras, sure, but they have blind areas.) That’s a specific scenario, though; I don’t think it applies to most workplaces.

      I would like to KNOW if a coworker was convicted of violent crimes, but I don’t know if or how an employer should share that information with their staff.

      1. Natalie*

        Does that apply to all possible felonies? A male coworker who used to be a car thief or something probably doesn’t pose more of a danger than any of your other male co-workers taken at random.

        1. Tendell*

          You’re right, some felonies probably wouldn’t make me more wary than I already am of coworkers I don’t know well. Some non-violent felonies, like burglary or arson, would still worry me if I knew about them, but for the most part I’m thinking about violent crimes.

          I do think that, if somebody’s accepted their punishment and wants to rejoin society on good terms, they should be encouraged and not discriminated against for the rest of their lives, but I also think it’s reasonable to consider your own safety in these situations. I’m already very careful around people who are stronger than me when I don’t know them well, and knowing that someone was convicted for a violent or malicious crime kicks up their threat rating just because it’s proof that, at some point at least, they had a violent or malicious mindset.

          I know that people who have done horrible things can turn around and become some of the most admirable people you can imagine, but I’m not confident enough in my skills as a judge of character to try to determine a person’s level of repentance. In the daytime, surrounded by people I know, working with an ex-felon is something I can be comfortable with; at night, in a mostly-empty building, it probably isn’t.

          1. Natalie*

            I guess it was the gender specification that gave me pause – it sounds like a woman with a similar record wouldn’t concern you? Or maybe wouldn’t concern you as much? I was just curious about that.

            1. Tendell*

              I would bet that every single one of the men I work with is stronger than I am, except MAYBE one or two. I like them all and have no reason to think they’re anything other than lovely people, but if one of them were determined to hurt me, I don’t think I could stop them.

              Conversely, if I were placing bets, I think I could probably take on at least 80% of the women I work with, or at least have a fair shot if I were struggling with them. (This is a weird mental exercise, btw–I like my coworkers, honestly!) Plus, I’ve never had a woman express inappropriate interest in me; the same is not true of men. I’m not saying that a female ex-felon couldn’t be dangerous, but I do think a man is much more likely to have the desire and ability to do me serious harm.

              That seems relatively uncontroversial to me, but please let me know if you disagree!

    8. Pen and Pencil*

      I worked with a guy who we later found out (because he got arrested for rape) had murdered an immediate family member. I was PISSED. No one knew he had any background. I had given my information for a background check, so I assumed that everyone I worked with either had no issues or minor ones. Turns out HR didn’t even bother running the reports, so even though he was still on probation, no one knew. By the time he got arrested for raping someone he had 3 sexual harassment complaints, worked with minors on a regular basis, and had access to my personal cell phone number. Also he had been asking around to see if anyone had good leads on apartment complexes, so he knew the complex I lived in at the time. It was terrifying. Even if they had hired him and just let us know that this guy had a history, I could have at least protected myself better. They didn’t even bother to tell us about his history when they fired him; I had to find out on my own.

      I wouldn’t care if someone had a felony for a non violent and mostly victim-less crime. For the most part as long as they’ve served their time, then whatever. But you as an employer has a responsibility to protect your employees, and when a violent offender offender has access to personal information or can end up alone with one employee, you are no longer doing your duty.

        1. Natalie*

          It generally is, but it sounds like the HR person was claiming to run backgrounds but never actually doing the work.

        2. Pen and Pencil*

          You would think that, but no. The HR person essentially said she was running everyone through the system with the most basic background check you could do. It should have caught anything that happened within 5 years. He was sentenced for 20 years and got out in 10 for normal good behavior/overcrowding issues and was on parole for 10, but because the crime happened 20 years ago it wasn’t caught even though he was still on parole.WHICH MAKES NO SENSE. I am not an HR professional, but who only runs a background check on the last five years????? If you can tell I’m still really angry about it. Also the parents of the children were not told, despite management knowing he had some of their cell phone numbers (one woman had even complained about this because it is a grooming behavior). The office of mostly single women living along? Not told.

          I left that company recently and still feel like sending an anonymous letter to the organization whose children he was working with to tell them about this. It happened a year ago though, so I don’t know if it’s worth it at this point.

    9. LCL*

      I am not and will never be a hiring manager, so FWIW
      I make the distinction between predatory and non predatory felonies. I don’t consider small time drug dealing predatory, others may disagree.
      I consider stealing extremely predatory. I wouldn’t hire someone who had ever prowled cars, or embezzled large sums of money, even though those crimes are considered non violent. Shoplifter who stole a sandwich-eligible. Person who filled their cart with steaks and ran out-not eligible.
      I would consider someone convicted of assault, depending on the circumstances. Bar fight-considered. Waited around in the parking lot of the bar to jump someone? Not considered.

    10. Lillian McGee*

      I hired and supervised an ex-con. I don’t know what the crime was and I never asked. The social worker in my office worked with a reentry program who provided the referral–he had gained significant legal writing/research experience while in prison and the position was a paralegal internship so I said sure. The program person did assure me that he was rehabilitated and the crime was the result of bad decisions made in youth (he was now late-30s early 40s). He was a great worker and very dedicated. I actually nominated him for intern of the year and he won! Only the social worker and I knew he was ex-con.

      I think it’s important to give ex-cons a chance. Even ones with violent offenses if someone can vouch for them being truly rehabilitated. They have SO MUCH adversity in life after prison it’s no wonder recidivism is a near inevitability.

    11. Alton*

      I’m a big believer in giving people a chance and not needlessly discriminating against people based on criminal convictions.

      It would really bother me if someone assumed that I’d want a “warning” about a new coworker being a felon. I wouldn’t appreciate being made complicit in that stigma. Unless it’s relevant to the job somehow, or the person’s criminal history is really egregious, I don’t want someone to decide it’s my business.

    12. Jersey's Mom*

      No to make light of a serious question. But I read it as “What are your thoughts in working with falcons?”.

      Not sure if it was the new eyeglasses or that I’m an ecologist. Quittin’ time can’t come soon enough today.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        Hahaha seriously though, I can see Alison’s post now: Live rodent hunting in the office; Office temperature regulated to raptors; Stuck cleaning the birdcage: and more

    13. Mags*

      I am 100% for companies who hire felons, and do my best to support them (you can find lists online if you’re curious). Once someone has served their time they should be allowed to fully rejoin society. I’m not saying you need to hire someone who has been convicted on 13 counts of wire fraud and cheque forgery in your finance department. But a blanket ban on all felons is just continuing to punish people when they have already paid for their crime.

    14. DragoCucina*

      As others have said, “It depends.” What was the crime?

      We work with a local public agency that helps people who have messed up get back into the workforce. They do all the background checks and pre-screening interviews. They often have to check-in or attend meetings. These employees begin by working on our cleaning staff. Not glamorous, but it builds experience. One person is now the manager of a local hotel. Another is now one of our front line staff and is amazing. It’s great seeing someone blossom and take control of their life. We did have one gentleman go MIA and we think he relapsed.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      I have worked with pedophiles. Not by choice, believe me. I complained, but my subordinates did not know I complained. I never told them. Finally what I landed on was telling people on a need to know basis. Some people knew and no problem. But some people did not and those people were the ones I told. I did not discuss it in groups, I only spoke of it in direct conversation with individuals.

      That was a rough one for me. Granted this is a huge topic. Worse yet, I cannot explain here in detail what I knew about the situations. Let me put it this way, some people did not re-offend (insert long story here) and some people did re-offend. I think the way we navigated it all was we all watched out for each other if someone saw something amiss that person would speak up.

      But that was the worst experience I had. On a personal level, I have friends who have done jail time and I have friends who have done things that SHOULD have gotten them jail time. In all cases, that was a long time ago and they have become people I am proud to call my friend. I go by what I see going on today.

  20. Ann Furthermore*

    I had a very promising phone interview last week, and the hiring manager said she’d get back to me by “mid-week.” It’s now Friday morning, and zippo. ARGH. I know this is typical, but it’s making me insane. I’m going to send a follow up email today, and hope for the best.

    ARGH.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Got an email that the job has been filled. Bummer….it’s something I think I would have been a great fit. At least the manager took the time to update me though. I sent a back a reply thanking her for time, asked for some feedback, and wishing her the best of luck as they move forward. I hope that sends some good karma out into the universe.

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          I think the good karma worked. I sent an email to a recruiter about a position I’d talked to him about back in August, which was followed up by a phone interview with the hiring manager. They said they’d get back to me with “next steps,” but then….nothing.

          I assumed the job had been filled, but it popped up again on a Dice alert, and the job was still open on their website. So I sent the recruiter a quick email to say I was still interested, if I was still in the running.

          He replied to say that the hiring manager will be in town next week, and asked if I could be available to talk with him next Friday or the following Monday.

          3rd interview!!! Keeping my fingers crossed!!!

        1. the gold digger*

          My boss really liked me but realized I didn’t fit the position as it was written, so they re-wrote the job description to accommodate me. They had added a VP position and were recruiting for that at the same time. They hired the VP and wanted him to interview me, so that took a while.

          And then, once I got the offer letter, the position was called “analyst” and the pay was too low, so I said nope, not like that. I am not analyst level. (I work with all engineers who really don’t seem to care about titles, so my boss did not understand that part at all – all that matters with them is if someone is competent or not.) They had to re-grade the job, re-post it, and find more money.

          I finally got a good offer in early June, but my old job wouldn’t pay out unused PTO (what IS it with companies like that?), so we set my start date for Aug 5 so I could use my PTO before I gave notice.

          It was worth it. I have an absolutely wonderful boss now and I really like what I do and the people I work with. AND the horrible CEO at my previous job just got fired by the board. Life is good. :)

    2. Rebecca*

      I feel your pain! I applied for a job over 2 months ago, had a phone interview 7 weeks ago, and finally am going to an in person interview on Monday. I wish things could happen more quickly, but I guess the company has a schedule on these things for a reason. Not for me to question.

      But – it doesn’t make it any easier. Keep the faith!!

  21. Murphy*

    I’m pregnant, in the first trimester. Only immediate family and 2 friends know about it at this point. I have a bunch of doctor’s appointments scheduled(4 in a 3 week period). I have the sick time, and they don’t conflict with any meetings, so I’m good in that regard. I’ve blocked the time out on my calendar, but I have to formally request the leave. I was trying to space out my leave requests, so my boss doesn’t see a bunch of requests from me all at once and ask me about it since I’m not ready to share. I submitted one two days ago and he hasn’t acknowledged it yet (a very quick click on his part). I don’t want to ask him about it to bring more attention to it, but I do need him to acknowledge it at some point. I still have 2 more requests I’m waiting to submit. Should I ask him about it or no?

    Also, I was reading advice online about when/how to discuss your pregnancy at work. It said to tell your boss first so he doesn’t hear it from someone else (which makes perfect sense). But I was planning on talking to HR first to make sure that I understand our maternity leave policy before I went to him with the news. Is that OK to do?

    1. Kat*

      in my experience HR won’t get involved until you’re closer to actually taking your maternity leave. They may send you a packet or something, or point out the STD/maternity leave/FMLA policy in the handbook to you, but your HR meeting will be later in the game. Tell your manager first, because that person will be affected more directly by your maternity leave than HR will be.

      1. Murphy*

        I’ve read the maternity/FMLA information on the website. It’s not 100% clear to me, and also, I know several people have come back part time before transitioning back into full time work, and this isn’t covered in the policy at all, so I wanted to know how that worked, because I might be interested in that. I figured it would be a brief informal chat with my unit’s HR person and not the central HR. If he asks me anything about scheduling/planning I won’t know how to answer until I talk to HR.

        1. J.B.*

          Go find someone who came back from maternity leave and ask her. Ask her to keep quiet at this point of course. As far as the boss finding out, if you are not worried about getting pushed out, just send your requests and let him/her guess. Most people aren’t crazy enough to ask. (I have guessed a few times that coworkers or friends might be expecting but NEVER EVER ASK.) Congratulations!

          1. Murphy*

            Why is asking our HR person, who knows our policies and for whom it is presumably part of her job to keep things confidential, not as good as asking random employee who I don’t know very well and who I assume I can trust to keep it quiet but I really have no idea?

            I’m kind of confused about all the comments here that seem to suggest that talking to HR is some kind of no-no or that I shouldn’t worry about understanding our leave policy.

            1. Catz*

              I think it’s fine to talk to HR first, but don’t assume it will be confidential, because it probably won’t be. And if you do talk to HR first, talk to your boss as soon as possible after, so your boss hears from you and not HR first.

    3. J*

      Hm. Well, whatever HR says shouldn’t impact giving your boss the news, so I don’t know that there’s a reason to prioritize HR over your boss. If he wants to chat about plans for your mat leave, you can let him know that you’ll be meeting with HR to confirm maternity benefit guidelines.

      1. Murphy*

        The only reason is because I want to fully understand the policy soonish for my own planning and budgeting purposes, whereas I don’t necessarily want to share my news soonish. And if I don’t understand the information, all I’ll be able to tell him is “I’m pregnant and I’m due in April.” End of discussion. The discussion with HR is for MY benefit whereas telling my boss is for HIS benefit.

    4. Smelly Cat*

      I’d say that as long as you trust your HR person and your boss to respect your wishes that’s fine to do. They probably aren’t that interested in who finds out first as they’ll both know fairly quickly.

      If you want to tell your boss personally but want to go to HR first just make sure to tell them explicitly that you will tell your boss yourself. And then do so later that day, and let them know you did it.

      Congratulations!!

      1. Murphy*

        Thanks! I just don’t necessarily want to tell my boss ASAP (it feels weird to tell someone who I never discuss nonwork issues with before most of my close friends know) but I would like to understand my maternity options sooner for planning/budgeting purposes.

    5. Engineer Woman*

      Congrats! I told my boss first around end of first trimester and then went to HR. Who told me to come back at around end of 2nd trimester because I’m pregnant and anything she would tell me, I’d forget by second trimester so it would be better to talk about maternity leave policy closer to when I was going to take it.

      I was so shocked that I just left the HR office. But inside, I was wondering how I could continue to do my job properly if I was so forgetful due to pregnancy as she claimed I would be? Shouldn’t she have just authorized some leave then and there?! Anyway: I hope your HR is more tactful and helpful. That said: you’ll have plenty of time to review and understand the leave process and policy after you tell your boss. I’d still suggest telling your boss first.

    6. Phoenix Feather*

      I think it depends on your relationship with your boss. When I was pregnant, my main boss was the *only* married C-level and only C-level parent in our organization. At the 11 week mark, I had to leave work early because I was suddenly very ill, and after a trip to the ER, found out I had H1N1. Now this was after the main scare and by then we knew H1N1 wasn’t a super big deal… except for pregnant women. When I returned to work after a week and a half, I felt comfortable explaining to the C-level boss that I was pregnant. I happen to be in the same area as our HR so they informally knew not long after, but I didn’t really involve them until I was closer to 6 months and had found out that I would absolutely not be going full term.

      Maternity Leave policies are overwhelming and it makes sense you would want to understand it, but I don’t think you should go there first. That’s definitely a conversation for further along in your pregnancy. You’ll want to start the conversations with HR about your leave, and then as you get closer to your leave date, ask them what their time frame is for accommodations on your return. Will you be pumping and in need of a secured, private area? Some companies want a head’s up so they can factor that in over the course of a few months as things develop. My employer happened to have a space designated from another employee who was just finishing with using it, and since I was able to give the head’s up that I would need the space, they didn’t bother converting it.

      1. Murphy*

        Our relationship isn’t bad. We don’t talk every day, and it’s always 100% about work. He’s an older male, and I don’t think he has kids (I could be wrong and he could have adult chilren, but I don’t think so.) He’s the workaholic type.

        I work at a large university, so they have a few designated pumping spots, including one in the next building, so I know that I’m OK there.

      2. NW Mossy*

        I just came back from maternity leave last month, and I second that it’s common not to dig into the details about leave until you’re further along unless your pregnancy’s high-risk or you have other reasons to believe that you might deliver well short of term. I waited until 20 weeks to tell my bosses and didn’t reach out to HR with my leave questions until after, but still had plenty of time to arrange things in response to their answers.

        It definitely feels like something you should do early on, but practically speaking, it’s rare that you’ll learn anything in your conversations with HR that will impact decisions you need to make far in advance of the birth. I’d put return-from-leave issues particularly high on the wait-until-later list, because how your pregnancy progresses will matter a lot. For example, having a late-stage complication and/or a preemie will drive you to make really different decisions than an uncomplicated full-term birth, and you can’t know which you’ll be until you get closer.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      I was trying to space out my leave requests, so my boss doesn’t see a bunch of requests from me all at once and ask me about it since I’m not ready to share.

      I’d submit them all at once. “Yeah, just having some labwork done. No big deal.”

      1. motherofdragons*

        Yep, this. Or just “I’m getting some medical stuff done.” The “no big deal”/casual attitude is key here. This is how I approached my boss when I needed treatment for mental health issues, without disclosing too much, and she was curious but I kept it casual and she didn’t pry, but does approve my requests for “doctor’s appointments” (aka therapy) promptly because I gave her a heads up that they would be regular from here on out.

    8. krm*

      I’m also pregnant (20 weeks today!) and told my boss earlier than I might have otherwise, as I have a high risk pregnancy (I’m diabetic). Due to the high risk nature of my pregnancy, I have weekly appointments with my OB and needed to fill my boss in about my time off. She and I work very closely, so it was important to me that she knew the reason that I would be out of the office regularly. I told our HR person right after I told my boss, mainly to fill her in on my reasons for needing time off, and to find out if I needed to fill out FMLA paperwork for my appointments. In my experience, maternity leave policies won’t impact you until much further along in your pregnancy.

    9. Eileen*

      I’d submit all of the requests and if he still ignores them, just mention you have some upcoming medical appointments that you submitted, could he please approve them.

      I’ve told my boss first both times, and then gone to talk to HR to confirm what benefits (or lack thereof) I’d get. Its okay to just tell your boss whenever you’re comfortable and have more detailed conversations about plans later. I think my conversations have basically been “I’m pregnant, I’m due in X, I’m really excited. I know we have to start thinking about how to cover everything, I’ll work on a preliminary plan.”

      Also, remember that people are not as observant as you think they are. I was convinced coworkers knew this time around, and they had no idea when I told them.

    10. TheCupcakeCounter*

      If the only reason you are holding off telling your boss is because you want to talk to HR about mat.leave policy just tell him. I told my boss just around the 3 month mark when I knew the appointments would start up and be noticed. He was great about it and actually got me in contact with the right HR person so it didn’t get blabbed around while I was transferred from HR person to HR person (big company and bigger mouths).
      If you don’t want to tell him for other reasons then don’t but you don’t need to understand the maternity leave policy fully before announcing it. Besides he is most likely the one you will need to work out certain transitions and alternate schedules with.

    11. Rocky.*

      Another rationale for “eh, don’t worry about HR right now” is because HR doesn’t even directly handle maternity leave at a lot of employers. Mine contracts the whole process out to an insurance company, which is a really common way to do it. The insurance company in question didn’t even want to talk to me until 30 days before my due date.

      Also, the stuff you mention about wanting to know the options for transitioning back might depend more on your boss than on HR policy. Our actual policy is pretty uptight, but in practice people get a lot of flexible scheduling options when coming back from FMLA, and that’s negotiated directly with your boss.

    1. Wrench Turner*

      It’s unethical. Don’t work for free. It depresses wages for everyone else in your industry. Why pay you, when someone else will do your job for less or free? People die from exposure. Don’t work for it.

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      Go on a writers’ board, and there is tons of commentary about this issue. The problem is that there is a tradition respectable journals where writing is unpaid or paid in copies. But we are talking about places operating on a shoestring, often where the paper copies themselves are free to readers and where the whole thing is a labor of love for all involved. If they can afford to pay their freelancers, what makes the contributors need to work for free? And writing is work. Sometimes really hard work.

      I find a personal blog takes care of my need to create unpaid writing for mass consumption.

    3. Manders*

      This really seems like they’re devaluing work by and for women. I’m not a fan.

      Buuuuuut… I also work in marketing, and it can be worth it to get an article about a product you’re trying to push published in a place like the Huffington Post (which is notorious for not paying writers). It’s this unspoken quid pro quo where a news site is willing to publish thinly disguised marketing if that’s what it takes to keep up with the constant content churn. A lot of “unpaid” contributors may be getting paid for their work by their actual employer. I feel pretty weird about it sometimes, but it does happen a lot.

        1. Manders*

          Yeah, what I was trying to say is that the “contributor” position seemed like it was going to attract marketers who are being paid by their actual employers to pitch content pushing a specific company’s products or expertise. I still think it’s shady, but this happens a lot, and at least the writer’s getting paid by someone.

          The other two positions listed, however, are so far over the line that maybe this company really does plan on having contributors who will work unpaid with no ulterior motive. That’s lousy. And for the record, I’d like to see other sites like HuffPo pay their writers too.

    4. Audiophile*

      They lost me at the opening line.

      I contributed to a blog that was tangentially connected to a Big Name Hollywood Actor and their production company.

      They were upfront, at least, that no one was getting paid for their writing, but you might be invited to a party and your work, if good enough, would be tweeted out by the actor. I had 5 articles published, I think. I mainly did it for the byline and to have writing samples to submit for jobs. No one’s work was ever tweeted and no party ever happened, to my knowledge, and the website was shuttered about a year later.

    5. DragoCucina*

      IANL, but I think if pressed the unpaid internship would be illegal. One of the criteria for an unpaid internship is, “The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded.” I don’t think that the description on Craigslist holds with no advantage.

    6. Pwyll*

      I’m frankly not convinced the “freelance” writer position is even legally “freelance.” A requirement to participate in meetings every single day from 7:30-1 PM, and a specific output of content each day? Sounds like actual, hourly employment to me.

  23. Nervous Accountant*

    I am SO READY to move!!!

    I reached BEC mode again w the CW who sits next to me–but I shut him down in that moment, to stop looking at my screen.

    Meanwhile, other CC complains I’m like an animal in how messy and spread out I am (there’s a desk in between that’s unused). I actually packed all my stuff away and started taking it home Bc of the pending move, so he has PLENTY of space to spread out.

    Our move was put off until next week and I was SO disappointed…..

    On another note, I’m also super super super pissed that 4 of my dishes have gone missing. Looked everywhere, asked the office manager, cleaning crew etc. nearly 2 years here with no incidents and suddenly my phone charger and 4 dishes go missing in the space of a month.

    I mean the dishes was the worst this week, so I’m just reminding myself that if this was the worst then I have it pretty great. I’m also excited to take new ID pictures, so I’m trying to decide what to wear/do my makeup and hair.

  24. Happy Lurker*

    Does anyone have any advice for those in the “in between” stages of going paperless? Our industry is half paperless and have USPS old school mail.
    My specific issues have to do with the electronic invoicing. From my vendors I get multiple wrong invoices, which I chalk up to sloppy (fast) work. When requesting corrections, they are rarely done until they ask for payment and I reiterate the mistakes.
    More annoying, from my customers: I have one in particular that makes more mistakes in the last two years (skipped payments, missing information, etc) than in the previous ten. They seem to me to be people not paying attention.
    Do I just grit my teeth and deal with it? It seems to me that these past two years of paperless is resulting in significant increases in time and follow-up. Anyone else? Does it get better?

    1. Hotel GM Guy*

      When working in AR and AP, it’s going to be a mess any way you slice it. Each vendor and customer is different, and you have to be organized enough to follow up. I keep detailed notes on all my vendors and clients, otherwise it’d get away from me super quick (since there are dozens of different companies to track)

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Yeah. It’s always been a hot mess, but after a number of years it’s now second nature. It’s more this pre-transitional stage from paper to electronic that is frustrating. Some electronic, some paper. But the electronic (both A/P and A/R) are more work with endless followup. Whereas I thought it would have been less. Frankly, I am shocked and now resist bringing up switching the rest over.

        The biggest issue seems to be the lack of looking at the information sent. No idea there are second pages, not reading anything attached?? It is actually worse this second year than it was it first.
        I was hoping someone would say “Yes, it gets better” – oh well. Thanks Hotel guy! Notes have always been my salvation too. I must assume this is the new normal.

  25. Shayland (ActualName)*

    So Update on the “Getting Terminated from the Girl Scouts Because I am Disabled” Thing. I called the ACLU, the disability rights organization for my state, and a non profit group focused on my city.

    The ACLU said they couldn’t take my case.

    About a month and a half after I first called the disability rights org a lawyer called me. We talked on the phone for about an hour and a half. He was a really great, supportive dude. He explained some specifics about how the Girl Scouts don’t actually have to follow the ADA, something about them being religiously affiliated. But that another, similar law did apply to them because they received government funding.

    We talked a bit about how the amount I was sueing for won’t be a lot, but how sueing them still mattered. They can’t get away with this. We also talked about how I wanted them to be required to do more sensitivity training when it comes to those with disabilities since they handled the accommodation process so poorly.

    I emailed him all the documentation I had. I waited for his call “in about a week”. Then I waited two more weeks. Then I emailed him telling him that my phone number was about to change, as I was moving back to school. My email got an “I’m out of the office until x date” and then no further response.

    I reached out to them again, concerned about moving into my dorm with two service dogs, but got no response from the org and found out while moving in that the dogs weren’t a problem. This second reaching out made me feel embarrassed and has kept me from calling a third time to follow up on my original Girl Scout case.

    I then called the third and final non profit group, who just got back to me saying they couldn’t take the case but they could give me resources.

    I realized that my original written response to the termination letter (which I had give to the lawyer) was too driven by my doubt that Branka wasn’t a valid service dog. I now realize that the real problem was they never gave me some accommodations I asked for (months before starting) including some hard copy materials as PDF so my computer could read them. That the proposed accommodation for my service dog was clearly abusive to her. And that the disability they terminated me over was one that hadn’t even come up yet and which they weren’t willing to open a dialogue about when it came to accommodation.

    I think I am going to call the disability group again, and see what happens.

    It has been a very long couple of months.

    1. Kat*

      I am sorry you are still dealing with this, it sounds very frustrating and demoralizing. Can you speak with another lawyer? I have been a part of Girl Scouts in my state for years in varying capacities (volunteer) and I am not aware of them being affiliated with any religion. Perhaps your lawyer is confusing them with the Boy Scouts who are heavily Christian.

      If you don’t have any luck reaching out directly to an employment lawyer, try an advocacy law group in your area. For example, in my city, there is a place that does pro-bono lawyer work for low income people or, at the very least, can advise them for low/no cost. It would be perhaps a good place to start because it would be a low layout of expense for you. Not sure if maybe this is already where you found your previous lawyer, but it’s worth a shot maybe?

      Wishing you the best of luck and a speedy resolution.

      1. Natalie*

        I googled this a bit and the lawyer isn’t completely out to lunch – the ADA and many other civil rights laws exempt “private membership organizations”, which the Girl Scouts is. It has nothing to do with being a religious organization or not. However, everything I saw about that exemption referred to the members of the organization (i.e. the girls that join). I can’t tell if it applies to employment in a private membership organization or not.

  26. Rat Racer*

    I have a dilemma and would love the insight of this wise community. I have a colleague, Claire, who reports to a different department, but is matrixed to my boss. Our work overlaps, we collaborate frequently on projects, and I consider her a friend as well as a colleague.

    This matrix arrangement is problematic: Claire isn’t always included in meetings when she should be, doesn’t have an ear to the ground on inner workings of the department, and (I believe) as a consequence, my boss tends to overlook and undervalue her. I’ve been trying to remediate this to the extent that I can: I forward meetings to her when she’s been left off the invite list, we have a weekly meeting touch-base meeting where I try to relay any relevant news/info, and I put in good words when I get the opportunity.

    This year, Claire volunteered to take on some work that had been nebulously mine. The work hasn’t been progressing as fast as I’d like it too – even though I carved out time for one of my direct reports to assist her. Next week, there is an opportunity to make a breakthrough on this work by gathering research at a site visit – the site visit is being organized by my boss for a tangentially related project.

    Claire’s strategy was to talk to members of my boss’s team after the visit, and gather information from them to feed her research. Yesterday, my boss pinged me and invited me to come to the site visit. I said that I would be delighted, but asked my boss if he had considered asking Claire, since she has a more direct stake. Boss said, “no,” he wants me to go, thinks that I will do a better job. Boss told me to tell Claire that I am going at his insistence.

    This is just going to look terrible to Claire: another example of her being shut out of an opportunity that would help her be better at her job, and further proof that she’s not considered part of the “team.” And, this isn’t relevant, but I have a bunch of travel lined up, and a trip across the country where there are no direct flights is just about the last thing I need.

    Here is the question I’m grappling with: Do I proactively tell Claire that I’m going on this much-coveted site visit, tell her that I advocated for her, but Boss said no? I could make up an excuse, e.g. Boss wanted to make this a team-building exercise, or something. But that won’t make her feel any less excluded. My spouse, who is my first point of contact for workplace dilemmas, thinks that this is not my problem and that I should stop fretting. But I can’t stop fretting. I know how horrible it is to be passed over for opportunities: you get set up for failure.

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      I would be proactive, but not provide excuses. “Boss has said he’s only taking me to indirect the teapot plant. I realize that it would have been much more effective if her had chosen you, so what information can I bring back to you to make your job easier?” That way 1) you’re not making excuses for your boss, 2) you show Claire you have her back, and 3) the task itself has a better chance of success.

      2. Rat Racer*

        This is great – I really like the part framing this as an opportunity for Claire to use me as her eyes and ears even if she doesn’t get to be there in person.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, but let her ask her boss how she can get these opportunities. It’s not for you to try to guess or explain your boss’s reason for excluding her.

        1. Rat Racer*

          The structural problem is that Claire doesn’t report to my boss – Claire works in a different department altogether but is “outsourced” to my department. It really is a terrible arrangement, both for Claire, and another Colleague, Josh, who is outsourced from Marketing and in the same boat. There’s no one to advocate for Claire and Josh except for me. Sometimes I think it would be better if we just officially adopted them into our department – the risk there is that they could end up reporting to me – which could be awkward. Again, I’m stuck in this narrative in my head that I’m getting all the spoils of war just based on where I sit in the org chart, while my colleagues get shafted.

          1. Observer*

            You don’t really know why your boss is acting this way. You might want to ask him about the general pattern – not in a challenging way, or even as advocacy for the others, but just to understand his thinking. That would help you understand what makes the most sense for you to do, both for you and for them.

            How much of their work is in your department? If it’s a substantial proportion, why are they in different departments? The whole set up is ripe for problems.

    3. allycat*

      I would just be direct and say that you advocated for her but Boss insists that you be the one to go. To me it also sounds like you’re doing as much as you can to include her and at this point you need to accept that it is out of your hands. It’s really up to your boss to determine her workload (even if he’s not using her to her full potential) and there is not anything additional you can do about it.

    4. BuildMeUp*

      Does your boss want you to go because of the research related to Claire’s project, or are you involved with the tangentially related project? He might be asking you to go because of the latter, since it’s the focus of the site visit.

      If that’s not the case, could you first talk to your boss again and clarify that Claire is supposed to be taking over this work, and that you think her coming on the site visit will help her get better at it? He might be looking at it in terms of, “Rat Racer should do the site visit because it will go more smoothly,” and it might help to reframe it as, “The site visit might take a little more effort, but it will pay off in the future by improving Claire’s work.”

      As for what to say to Claire, I would be honest but matter-of-fact about it. Just tell her boss asked you to go on the site visit – don’t make an excuse. I like Isben Takes Tea’s overall wording, but I’m not sure I would even bring up that it would be more effective had the boss chosen Claire – it could come off as undermining your boss’s decision, and I just don’t know if it would be helpful. Claire knows what the situation is and that you try to correct it when she’s being overlooked as much as you can.

      1. Rat Racer*

        I’m not really involved in the tangential project, but that could change, since we just re-organized (again, for the gazillionth time). I think Boss asked me to go because he thinks I’ll do a better job than Claire. And the reason he thinks I’ll do a better job is because I understand the nature of the business better – which is because I’m closer to the work, have better access to information. It’s a total catch 22 for Claire.

        I also like Isben Takes Tea’s wording about how this will give Claire better access than she would have had otherwise. I understand her project better than the rest of the folk’s on Boss’s team, and can make sure that I ask questions and collect the information she will need.

        Still not sure what to say about the fact that I advocated for Claire to come and Boss said “no.” I guess I should say so, but that’s really going to be the hardest part.

        1. Isben Takes Tea*

          Yeah, I’m not sure if you should bring that up, because it will look like you’re undermining your boss. She’ll know you support her by you trying to get her the best information possible. You’re in a difficult spot, to be sure, but you should try not taking sides if you can.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Yep, not your problem. I won’t tell you to stop fretting, because I know I would still worry.

      However. the problem belongs to the person who is the boss over your boss and Claire’s boss. I would tell Claire that you are going. She can report to her boss that she needs to go and is not allowed to go. Let the story roll out from there.

      Claire needs to be reporting what is going on to her boss.

      If you want to do something you can point out to your boss that Claire is frequently not included on what she needs to know to do the work she has been assigned. If you can track it so you have a list showing him what she is missing, that might be helpful to get your point across.

      This could be a power struggle between two bosses. Or it could be two boss that hate their own boss. Or it could be pure sloppiness and lack of planning. Assume the last scenario, just so you can sleep at night. And tell Claire that she needs to do more to advocate for herself. Try, try, try, not to advocate harder for other people’s jobs than you do for your own.

  27. Clever Name*

    My company has (more than) outgrown our current office space, so the owner of the company is looking for a new building. They are asking the employees their thoughts on office space design. She specifically said she doesn’t like open concept offices (thank god).

    I’ve got some ideas, but I wanted to hear from the commentariat their thoughts on office space design. I’m hoping to hear from people who have worked in different types of office layouts and hear about what they liked and didn’t like.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. LizDC*

      As someone who just switched jobs and is now exposed to a true open office (long tables and no privacy) – I’m remembering all the things I miss about my old space…

      Good insulation – if everyone can still hear everyone you say when the door in closed, it doesn’t matter that you stepped into a conference room to take that call – everyone knows the details of your doctor’s appointment.

      Furniture that can be rearranged – if you’re stuck with my back exposed to an open door or an open room – it always feels like someone is sneaking up on you. It’s disconcerting.

      The ability to shower at the office – Life happens and it’s nice to know that when the metro fails and you end up walking two miles to work, there’s somewhere to clean up.

      Coat rack / coat closet – People need space for their personal items. Nothing says “anonymous workerdrone” like having to hang your coat hanging on your chair and leave your purse, lunchbox and gym bag at your feet. When your employer doesn’t make space for you to “live” it’s tough.

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      My favorite office space ever was in a room in the attic of one of the oldest buildings on a college campus. There was also a big shared room right outside the office (we had about 4-5 separate rooms, which were all shared, but I only saw my “roomie” twice the entire time I was there – she had another desk elsewhere, too). I even had a dormer window!

      Since most people don’t get to have office space in historic buildings, I would say that I like spaces where there is a way to keep quiet areas quiet (I call them doors), but that there should be consideration for all needs. This means plenty of meeting space, and there should be an easy way to get outdoors. (I have a real problem being inside for too long.) Also, it’s nice when windows look out onto something other than roads. And when there are windows. Also, somewhere that large groups can work (not necessarily a meeting room) is nice.

    3. SL #2*

      I loooooved my old office: an open layout brick interior loft. We had 3 conference rooms, 3 long tables (one of them was a standing desk), and a couches/coffee table set-up near a TV (we needed constant access to CNN/MSNBC/etc). But we also had the appropriate set-up to be an open office, where everyone had laptops, headphones, and we were all reimbursed for cell phone usage in place of a landline.

      I recognize that I am one of the few people who really loves open office layouts and hates the cubicle system, though. Done properly, I think it has real potential, but it can’t just be a company being like “well, we’re going to knock down all the cubicles and that’s it.”

      1. Kay E*

        People want a dedicated space (a space they know is theirs – not daily reservation/office hoteling), some privacy (as described above – even if you have a “roomie”), and a window (I prefer a small office with a window than a large office with none).

        It’s nice if the kitchenette (if applicable) is separated from individual offices. Fantastic if it’s open enough to allow a few people to prepare the lunch/make coffee at the same time.

        Take your time to plan your conference room space. It might be where you need to start your planning. Great if you can have a partitioned large room (than can easily be transformed from 1 large room to 3 small rooms. My last office had a single 40-person conference room shred among 60-80 staff. So it wasn’t big enough to hold everyone, making all staff meetings very cramped. Second, it was ALWAYS booked – often by a small group of 4-8 people who had no where else to go.

        1. Clever Name*

          This pretty much describes our current situation. We have staff meetings that everyone is expected to attend, but we can’t fit everyone in the room. People sit in the halls/kitchen and strain to hear what is going on. It’s dumb.

    4. IowaGirl*

      If they are planning a design with both cubes and offices, the offices should be on the inside and the cubes around the outside. This gives way more light to the entire room than the traditional offices on the outside design and is much more pleasant to work in if you’re a cube dweller. (You probably still need some corner/window offices for the owner and his direct reports).

      Also, every time my company builds cubes they get smaller and smaller. The tiny cubes are dark and you can’t have a visitor, which can be really annoying, depending on your role. So advocate for at least the medium sized cubes.

      My office building has open concept break areas near the stairs and elevators which are separated from the desk areas by doors. This is a good design because it allows for bumping into people and impromptu meetings/socializing without disturbing people trying to focus at their desks.

      1. BRR*

        Second this. Having sunlight was a big reason I picked the job I have.

        Also keep the kitchen away from work areas. Mine is in the middle of everything (so nobody has to walk far?) but it can smell awful and sometimes the door isn’t all the way closed during lunch and it gets noisy.

    5. Chat Noir*

      1. If there are cubicles, makes sure the walls are high enough to provide privacy. When I’m on conference calls throughout the day I like to stand up for periods of time instead of sitting. My cube walls are only about 4 ft high. I’m 5 ft tall and I can see over the top into other people’s cubes.

      2. Along with #1, provide a way for people to convert their regular desk to a standing desk. I think there is equipment where you can raise your keyboard and monitor as needed.

      3. My workplace is pretty relaxed and it’s normal to take breaks for personal calls during the day. I would love to have a “phone booth” or small room to take calls in private.

      4. A dedicated break room. We have a separate closed off area with seating, sink, refrigerators, microwave and vending machines.

      5. Secure, comfortable room for nursing mothers.

      1. aelle*

        #3 is great. One of my previous offices was a semi-open plan design (really, groups of 4 desks with windows on one side and tall cabinets on 2 sides that provided really good sound insulation), with frosted glass booths of all sorts of sizes. You could use them for private calls or small meetings, and you could use whiteboard markers on the walls of the booths.

    6. Cat steals keyboard*

      Things I like about my office: lots of windows, with space around enough of them so you can go stand by a window without being in anyone’s way. Window sills, we have lots and it means people can grow plants in the office. A really nice big kitchen and breakout area. And a quiet room you can go to if you need some time out or want to do research in peace or pray or whatever you want.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        My office building is a LEED certified high rise with windows everywhere, and it’s one of the things I love most about the physical space. It’s probably why even when I’m stressed, I don’t get depressed like at prior jobs.

    8. NW Mossy*

      We just moved to a more open layout – we still have “cubes,” but with a high wall on only one side and low walls on the other two. Offices have gone away for everyone other than the CEO and his executive committee.

      One thing I love about the new workspace that’s invaluable is lots of conference rooms of various sizes (2-person rooms for 1-on-1s, 4-6 person rooms for small meetings, 10-12 for medium, and 40+ for large) – it makes it easy to find one that suits your needs and makes it much more possible to book recurring meetings consistently. I also love that several of them have technology to allow you to cast your laptop screen to a large screen that everyone can see, which is great for me as a boss to quickly illustrate a point when I’m meeting with someone. Even if you don’t go open-office, this is an awesome nice-to-have.

    9. Nervous Cube Dweller*

      We’re moving toward remodeling the office space where I work and I’m terrified we’ll end up with and open office layout. The conceptual phase has been dominated by buzzwords like flexible and collaborative, which are great ideas in their original meanings but these days seem to be code words for “buy some good headphones.” The space committee is dominated by extroverts who think everyone needs to hear every though that passes through their heads. The kind of people who have actual offices but prefer to have loud conversations in the hallway that distract those of us in cubicles. My work depends on long periods of focus on independent tasks and my focus depends on a lack of distraction and some feeling of privacy. I’ve expressed my concerns to both my manager and our department’s representative on the space committee and have kept my fingers crossed. Then the first space to be renovated….all open office.

      If that turns out to be the standard for all our workspaces, I’m not sure what I’ll do. I have a great job – rewarding work, good pay, and leadership that seems to “get it” far more than other places I’ve worked. Even with all that, though, I’ll have to seriously consider looking elsewhere if our workspace goes open office. I just can’t see spending every day in a physical environment that makes me miserable.

      Sorry… I realize that’s more of a rant than a reply. I guess mentions of open offices should come with a trigger warning.

      On the positive side, I agree with several things a number of others have mentioned: more natural light, a wider range of meeting spaces, more comfortable furniture. Above all, take into account ALL of the personality types and work needs in your company. Seek input even from those who seem reluctant to give it. Don’t be swayed by what’s trendy – spend the time to design something that really suits your specific organization.

      1. Clever Name*

        I told a coworker that if we move to open offices, I’ll quit. So I’m with you. Luckily, the owner of the company is an introvert.

  28. Zana*

    So, at my part time job, they look a lot at individual sales. I have a couple of co-workers who like to lurk around the register so they can process things and get the sale or ‘pounce’ on other people’s customers as they are heading there.

    This is honestly accounting for about 90% of the reason I am in ‘trouble’ for not making targets. How can I address this when my manager is one of the ‘sales pouncers’ without looking like I am just making an excuse…..even though it really is a genuine one.

    Disclaimer: I am actually not a hyper competitive sales person, I actually don’t care on a personal level who ‘gets a sale’, but since my workplace does, I do just because I just don’t want to get fired because I have bills paid.

    1. Smelly Cat*

      Ugh, I’ve been in your shoes before. A few suggestions:

      1) Always walk your customer to the cash register, they love it and it actually provides your customer with better service. They’ll be talking to you probably and want to continue talking as you cash them out. Plus, if they are purchasing a number of items, you can offer to carry them which further prevents the pouncers.

      2) If a pouncer offers to ring your customer in, say as sweetly as possible “Thanks, for offering to help! Could you fold and bag while I scan the items?” or if you’re especially confident “Thanks! You fold and bag, I’ll scan :).” (also helps with loss prevention)

      3) If neither of these is an option, introduce yourself when you start helping a customer. “Hi, my name is Sally, can I help you with anything today?” If they start asking for help, ask their name and remember it. Then when you’re finished say “Thanks Jan, it was really nice helping you today, the cash register is at the back of the store and I hope I see you again soon.” But that won’t be as helpful if your co-workers aren’t asking did anyone help you today (which they should be)

      You’re manager is being a jerk and abusing power which I think you know is the real problem here. Is there an assistant manager you can ask for advice on how to deal with your co-workers? She might be in a better position because of authority, more experience, or being there longer which means she knows your co-workers better and what will deter them the most.

      Alternatively, you could look elsewhere because this is not the norm and I’m sure you can find another job with a better manager. Good Luck!

      1. Zana*

        1. I do try to do that, but it is not always practical when the customer says something like ‘can you put them at he counter for me while I continue looking’. There’s not really a non pushy way to keep lurking around them. My manage is fond of giving herself (or her two ‘pets’) tasks near the counter so they can benefit from getting to process sales a lot.

        2. Is definitely a good one I’m going to try though.

        But yes, my manager is a power abusing jerk (I’m not a fan for a few reasons, this is just one) and I am looking for a new job, but mainly need to just handle this in the meantime as best as I can while I look. It can take a bit of time, sadly!

    2. Sadsack*

      Can you suggest that the person at the register should ask the customers if anyone there helped them? Then find a way that the person running the register can somehow give credit for the sale to whomever it belongs. Most places I shop in retail seem to ask who helped me, but I don’t know how that translates to the person getting credit for it.

      1. Beezus*

        When I worked retail ~15 years ago (egad!), you logged into the register under someone else’s associate number to give them the sales credit. I worked in a non-commission department adjacent to a commission department, and the commission sales people would let customers wander over to my area to shop and check out at my register, but they’d want me to use their login to make sure they got paid. I also covered lunches, etc. in the commission departments, occasionally, and the salespeople were always vigilant about making sure I gave them any sales I made, since I wasn’t going to be paid extra for them anyway.

    3. WellRed*

      Not sure what kind of environment you’re in, but when you finish helping a customer on the floor, are there times you can say, “if you are all set, I can take you over to the register and ring you up.” I mean, you don’t want to get in the way of their browsing and possibly buying more.
      But otherwise, because the company places so much emphasis on targets, they need to have a better system in place. Sorry.

      1. Zana*

        Yes, I do try to do that, but it is not always practical when the customer says something like ‘can you put them at he counter for me while I continue looking’. And then when they are done and ready, the sales pouncers are there and ready to jump on them and pop it through for themselves. My manager also likes to give herself tasks at the counter so she is right there and stick me in a different zone which is challenging. It’s lame.

        1. E*

          Perhaps a generic explanation that you work out on the floor not up at the cash register, and that you have helped many customers so perhaps some of “your” sales have accidentally been recorded as some one else’s. Presenting the issue as a mistake/problem in the system keeps it from you seeming like you’re directly accusing anyone.

        2. Not really a newish lurker anymore...*

          Can you go back to the customer and say “your things are at X. Is there anything else I can help you with/did you see the amazing Qs by the counter yet? Let me know when you’re done and I’ll show you!”

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Tell your manager that you want turns at doing stuff behind the counter so you can get your sales up like other people do.
          When she looks at you puzzled, “Well people get to do work right at the counter so that means they ring up other people’s sales, which gets their numbers up. I would like to have a turn at that also, so I can get my sales numbers up.”

          Or you may need to say to people, “I think we can reach ring up our own sales. I will ring up my own sale myself. Thanks.”

          When they place stuff at the counter, tell your cohorts, “This is my sale right here. I will ring it up when the customer is ready.”

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      This might be pushing it, but when your manager comments on your low sales, what if you come right out and say “Yes, it’s an issue. I often don’t get to close a sale because the customer I helped goes to the register and you or Jane are already there. So do you want me to keep working the floor and funneling customers to you and Jane, or would you prefer that I stayed near the register to catch more customers?” I mean, you’re basically saying “I’m handing you these customers, and if my sales go up, yours will go down.”

    5. Rocky*

      Probably depends on how the registers are set up, but at one retail place I worked, we wrote our employee numbers on the price tags so there was no confusion about whose sale it was by the time it got to the register. If you had a mismatch between the employee number on the label and what ended up printed on the customer’s receipt, there was obviously a problem. We were commission and it was made very clear that taking someone else’s commission was considered theft.

      1. Rocky*

        I should also add that at all the retail places I worked that had commissions or sales targets, only a small percentage of the managers’ salaries were based on sales. That was explicitly to keep them from competing with their own employees for sales. So something here definitely isn’t on the level.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      If you want to initiate the conversation, you can. Ignore the fact that your boss is stealing sales too. Just talk about some of your coworkers are stealing sales. If you are going to have your sales tracked, you want to ring up your own sales each time, every time. Don’t name names. Just say there seems to be a few people doing it so you feel that everyone needs to be made aware about not ringing up a sale on their own number that is not their sale.

      Tell her you call it stealing sales because you did the actual work with the customer and some one else rang it up on their number as if this person was their own customer.

      Your boss will be forced to stop stealing sales when she has to explain to other employees that they must stop stealing sales. So ignore this part of the whole issue, it will resolve itself.

  29. overcaffeinatedqueer*

    German/other European readers, help!

    I’m doing legal work on contract as a new lawyer. Some work opportunities come up because I speak German; and I told the headhunters to please tell me about anything in Germany.

    But my wife said if I went to do that for 3-12 months, she would want to take leave from her work or do her remote work from wherever we were, and come with.

    But we’re both women. No kids though. I haven’t spent enough time in Germany after coming out, to tell how being LGBT is there, or whether they would recognize my US marriage and how that would shake out for taxes and emergencies.

    Can any German readers give me ideas or point me to resources? In either language works.

    1. lascozzese*

      I can’t speak for Germany but in general Europe is very relaxed and tolerant, at least in the cities – I’ve lived in the UK, France and Italy. Disclaimer: I’m cis, so this is sort of an “outside” impression from seeing how friends and acquaintances have been treated… I obviously can’t claim direct experience.

    2. Me2*

      I lived in Germany for three years in the early 2000’s, in a village near a large city. It seemed to me that it was pretty accepting in general, public displays of affection, magazines devoted to different lifestyles readily available at almost any vendor, television portrayals, etc. Our next door neighbors were a male couple, I never saw or heard them say anything about dealing with prejudices. I’m Jewish and I felt a lot of anxiety about moving to Germany so I think I might understand your feelings a bit. I will say German taxes and the US taxes following (for years after we returned to the US) were a nightmare, and that was in a male/female married relationship. Our company provided accounting help with taxes for the time we spent there and the following two years. On the plus side, Germany is a great place to live because it is so central to so much.

    3. Pwyll*

      If I’m remembering correctly, there was a German court ruling that said a lawful foreign same-sex wedding is to be considered a “civil partnership” or civil union or whatever it is Germany calls same sex marriage without actually calling it marriage. So, I *think* German immigration would treat your wife the same as if she were a different-sex spouse.

    4. aelle*

      I’m not extremely well-versed in the legal / tax side of things, although it seems foreign same sex marriages are recognized in Germany. As for the culture, I would encourage you to research the specific region / city when you have an offer. Germany is a federal state with widely different attitudes as well as different laws depending on the region. Hamburg where I live is very progressive and open minded, so is Berlin. Things would probably be more difficult in smaller towns of Bavaria or Baden-Württemberg.

      For resources, I recommend the website “How to Germany”, and the boards “Toytown Germany”. Both have been very helpful to navigate paperwork.

  30. Pix*

    Yay!

    So I have a professional development opportunity at work.

    Cons: a two hour roundtrip commute, plus working a split shift (8a to 1p, 5p to 9p) once a month.
    Pros: statewide networking, I am not in a position my degree actually prepared me for (think general teapots versus chocolate teapots) so I’d get a better handle of how people with specific degrees deal with certain challenges, networking, preparation for moving higher/onward if Administration is a thing I want to do, they reimburse for mileage and it’d be paid time.

    I’m leaning toward doing it, because it’s only once a month and I could get some good things out of it. I own my car and it’s fairly old (an 06) even if I’m still <80k miles on it, so mode of transportation isn't an issue. Thoughts? I'm wondering if I'm not just SO HAPPY to be out of old job and be doing wonderful new job that I'm jumping on everything all the time and saying yes without thinking.

    1. Golden Lioness*

      This sounds great! Do it! You’d love it in spite of the long hours… says the person that did her MBA fully in actual classes (not online) while working full time.

      1. Seal*

        Agreed. I did a second master’s degree at night that involved 2 years of classes twice a week and a 3 hour round trip commute. The commute turned out to be great – gave me lots of time to unwind and listen to music.

    2. Whats In A Name*

      I say go for it. I did a 2 hour round trip (108 miles) commute every day for 3 years and feel in love with morning talk radio! I would have kept doing it if I didn’t get laid off when they downsized.

      If the split shift is only once per month you can spend the time between reading in Starbucks, getting your hair done or running errands. Just save that kind of stuff for that day and you’ll get it out of the way without cutting into too much “personal time” after you get home in the evenings.

  31. thunderbird*

    I have lost my sense of what is “normal” and need a reality check.

    I work for a small non-profit, alone in a regional office. I am a project coordinator and have a manager, but functionally I do all of the work for my project and am also expected to raise funds and assist with funding applications, which I have ended up taking the lead on a few major ones. My manager was on a leave for almost a year and I had very little contact or support from the rest of the team. I have no support from my team, and my manager is very overworked which I am sympathetic to. However, she claims that she is supposed to visit my site and work with me regularly, but lately we have a touch base meeting once a month and barely have any email communication in between. I had to relocate my office and only found out the day before moving day that no one was coming to assist with the move and no budget for movers. Multiple times other deadlines or things have taken priority, which again I can understand, but better planning and management could prevent these last minute ball droppings, if you will. I just feel so defeated and unappreciated, and that I am not worth the attention or support of my team or manager. It has been 2 years and things only get worse and worse as the days go by. I have tried everything I can to be self-sufficient and manage up when possible, but I seem to be at the end of my rope.

    So please tell me I am not over reacting by feeling so much indignation and contempt. Also any strategies to maintain my sanity or possibly improve the situation would be appreciated!

    1. Murphy*

      No, that’s definitely not normal. I know your manager is busy, but can you ask for more regular check-ins? or just send her weekly updates and see if she responds?

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      This is not normal, and my opinion is that you’ve had two years to see how the organization operates. I don’t think more frequent check-ins with your manager are going to help. You’re overworked and under-supported, and your manager sounds the same. I would suggest revamping your resume to include all of the incredible work you’ve managed over the last two years, and move on.

      1. thunderbird*

        Resume is up to date and have been looking for new opportunities for a while now. Trying to manage the chaos until something happens. My main goal is to escape, there are no opportunities to move within the organization and we are highly underpaid, especially for my location. Leadership is a complete mess, I have tried everything I can to improve things, but no success.

    3. JLK in the ATX*

      Hey… did you take my last job in non-profit?

      I’m sad to hear that someone else, in non-profit no less, is going through this, too. You should be indignant and feel contempt for people who should be caring for you, in the professional sense.

      It’s not ok. You shouldn’t be treated this way and yes, move on – quickly.

      I was the ED of a non-profit. I also did everything else (clients, fundraising, finances, ops, volunteer/staff mgment) When I asked my boss (BoD President) for recurring meetings to keep him in the loop of what was going on, more so to prepare the Board meeting agendas, he said, “I don’t like meetings for the sake of meetings.” Meaning, he’ll ask me when he wants to know something, otherwise he’s got this (and he never came to the office or knew what was going on. He must have been Superman…not) The only feedback I received was an annual performance letter.

      I hope you find something/someone who supports you at your next job.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This is how they operate. They do not have a plan to make it better. Without the involvement of more people, they probably can’t make it better.
      You are under-reacting. It was time to move on a while ago. When you have reached the stage of contempt it is time to leave six months ago.

  32. Burnout and low morale*

    Morning all!

    I work for a nonprofit; like most, we do a lot with a little. This has been kind of a crazy year – we’re growing programs and we’ve added huge new processes. They’re all necessary and good changes that will make a huge difference in the long run, but it’s just been exhausting. Add to that the fact that we’re going into one of our busiest seasons, and basically everyone is feeling the drain. I can tell people are burning out and losing morale.

    I guess what I’m looking for are some concrete ideas on how to do something about it! Whether it be morale boosting ideas, or just resources I can turn to to help fight burnout among the staff, any and all suggestions are welcome.

    1. misspiggy*

      In a similar situation we had a team review meeting just before Christmas. Managers would prepare materials that celebrated our achievements, like crackers to pull with successes written inside them, and little certificates for each of us with the strengths we individually had brought to the team. It really made a difference. Also cake, and encouraging people to work at home and leave early during less busy times.

    2. Kay*

      If people really have too much work to do, I think the best way to reduce burnout is to take some things off their plates or bring on new staff members (even temps) to take some of the pressure off. I know funding is always tight in nonprofits, but it might be time to prioritize and put non-essentials to the back burner for a while (at least through your busy season). I worked in nonprofits for quite a few years, and I eventually left the field due to burnout.

      I would suggest being very cognizant of morale boosting types of exercises that actually work to decrease morale. For example, the small nonprofit I worked at had a “secret Santa” and we had several offices spread throughout a multi-state area. So, in order to do the secret Santa, we had to go and buy a gift for a remote coworker we barely knew, drive to the post office and wait in holiday lines to mail it, wait for our secret Santa gift to arrive, go to the post office and stand in holiday lines to retrieve it, and then we had a video teleconference to open the gifts which was our “holiday party.” It created a ton of extra work and everyone ended up with things like candles and lotion we didn’t need or want. Plus, after we spent a couple hours dealing with the secret Santa, we still had just as much work to do (and a few less hours to do it in).

  33. Daisy Dukes*

    I got an offer!!! Thank you AAM and all you awesome commenters for your great advice :) I’m so excited to leave my toxic job!

    So here’s my question: I have the verbal offer and they’re running background check and all that, which once finalized, I will get the offer in writing. Background check form submitted this Wednesday. They also scheduled for me to fly to Seattle during week of 10/16.

    The thing is, I would need to give notice Monday in order for the math to work out on the 2 week notice and being able to fly out for training on time. My boss doesn’t take notices well and usually people leave same day or end of week, at the latest. However, I want to be able to offer the customary 2 weeks and serve it out just in case.

    Can I follow up with the hiring manager to communicate all this? How do I communicate that I’m not trying to rush the process but hope it can be completed in time?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      You can certainly say that you’d like confirmation so you can give you two weeks notice.

      That said, I think that your boss has forfeited his right to have proper notice by acting the way he does. You already have a new job and don’t need the reference anymore. I might wait until you’re walking out the door on your last day, unless you love the idea of not being paid for two weeks.

      1. Daisy Dukes*

        Thank you for your feedback! The thing is, I don’t want to be caught in case she asks for 2 weeks. I’m in an odd position because I’m the longest tenured employee in the company (small company).

        $ is not an issue because I already have over 2 weeks accrued vac time that will be paid out (my little nest egg lol).

        1. Stellaaaaa*

          How “on the level” is your new employer? They don’t seem to think you should give two weeks notice and that strikes me as odd. Of course, it’s likely they intend to get back to you by Monday anyway. But personally I’d just announce it on my last day and not care about burning this reference.

          1. Daisy Dukes*

            New employer has actually been really good about encouraging me to give 2 weeks, actually. I think it’s just the paperwork/final process that’s taking up the time, which is a separate department than the Hiring Manager.

            1. Beezus*

              I am celebrating today, because I just got a dud project cancelled with little to no fuss from my boss. I was expecting him to push back. I did a time study and found that it was going to take me about 10x longer than he expected for me to complete it, and as soon as I laid it out for him, his response was, “Oh god no, if it’s going to take you that long, just kill it now, you have better things to do.” Woohoo for reasonable bosses!

      2. Buggy Crispino*

        I don’t think you can really say you “don’t need the reference anymore.” Maybe for your next job you wouldn’t want them contacting your current employer but need your previous employer as a reference. Maybe for your next job it turns out that hiring manager has some kind of relationship with previous manager and picks up the phone to give him a call even though you didn’t list them as a reference. You just never know what the future might bring, so it’s never wrong to have the best intentions regardless of how current employer acts.

        1. Stellaaaaa*

          IMO it’s still moot when it’s the type of boss who fires people on the spot when they attempt to go by the book and give their two weeks notice. If you did give your notice and he told you to clear out your desk that day, would the reference be better?

    2. Natalie*

      I had this issue at my current job – they really wanted me to start before August 1st, and I communicated early on that I would need 3 weeks from official offer to start date (I sort of fudged why and let them think it was 3 weeks notice, but I actually gave 2 weeks and then took a week off). They were fairly understanding – I had did have to explicitly spell it out once that I was not comfortable giving notice until I had an offer letter/email, but once we had that conversation everyone was fine with it. There was no travel involved, though.

      You have a few options here, depending on your comfort level. You could go back to new employer and very clearly say you can’t give notice until you have a written confirmation of the offer, start date, etc. You could decide to give short notice at your current place – it’s not ideal, but it’s not the end of the world, and if your boss doesn’t take notice well maybe it won’t have any effect. Or, you could give notice based on the verbal offer. It’s a little risky, sure, but given that they’ve booked travel for you I think it’s less risky than typical.

  34. AshK434*

    I’m applying to out-of-state jobs back in the city I previously lived in because my new job in new city are kind of making me miserable. Even though I’ve been in new job for the past four months, I’m going to leave it off of my resume because I haven’t been getting any interviews when I do leave it on. How do I explain this gap? I don’t want to lie but don’t want to mention this job at all because it’s in a completely different city and I don’t want to get into why I want to leave so soon. Any thoughts?

    1. MacGirl*

      I would guess most employers would be understanding enough about the job economy not to ask about that gap. I don’t think you are considered long-term unemployed until 6+ months. If it did come up, I would just say something like you have been searching for the right position, one in which you feel that you would be able to make a valuable contribution to the organization and suggest that you believe that the position that you are interviewing for is just that.

      Since you have been at your current job for 4 months, you may be able to start listing it if you have achieved any results or accomplished anything related to what you are applying for, but (and someone check me on this) I think it’s usually better to wait until after 6 months.

    2. Audiophile*

      I’m in a job currently, that I secured about 2 weeks after my last position ended. I’ve had very little questions about a gap.
      I have mentioned it a few times in interviews but referred to it as a temp job and made it clear that I haven’t put it on my resume because I’ve only been in it about 2 months. Temp job probably isn’t the right terminology and I may need to change that in the future.

      I don’t think there’s any reason you’ll have an issue with a 4 month gap on your resume.

  35. Ethics_Question*

    I am in charge of checking out equipment. There is a piece of equipment that is unsafe and the instructions I recieved was to throw it out. However, it can easily be made useable with with a little jerry-rigging/electrical tape.

    What do people think – is it a problem to pocket trashed equipment at work so you can tinker and attempt to make it workable?

    I already tossed the equipment per instructions, but I’m interested from an ethics/perceptions point of view in case it comes up again.

    1. Sophie*

      I would err on the side of caution and just ask if you can take it home. I’m sure as long as paperwork is completed to say it’s been taken care of, it wouldn’t matter too much. If there even is paperwork? Just say ‘I love tinkering with electronics, would it be okay if this came home with me?’

    2. Construction Safety*

      If it’s a safety critical item, the company will probably want it properly disposed of, there could be a huge liability involved. Is it for your personal use? Otherwise, the “jerry-rigged / electrical tape” fix would scare me.

      1. Natalie*

        I think Ethics_Question is just proposing they be allowed to bring it home and tinker with it, not keep using it at work.

    3. Natalie*

      I say just ask – “hey, tinkering with equipment is one of my hobbies. Do you mind if I take this decommissioned widget home?” As long as there’s no safety issue you’re not aware of (it’s full of toxic chemicals or something) anyone reasonable would be fine with that.

    4. Emilia Bedelia*

      Nooooooooo. This is a big optics issue and safety/liability risk. If your job is inspecting equipment, it looks bad to say “this piece has to be thrown out- I’m going to take it home and use it myself”. I’m sure you follow procedure on what is usable and what isn’t, but it sure looks like an opportunity for less than ethical behavior from the outside, and setting the precedent for you now could cause problems later if less scrupulous employees want to abuse this practice later. It’s a liability risk for the company to knowingly allow you to take home and presumably use equipment that they know is unsafe. There’s no gain for the company here- this situation only benefits you.
      You could ask, but I think this is not a good position for the company to be in.

    5. LCL*

      Government employee here. What you describe is not allowed here. We have a procedure for disposing of things. The scrap is available for sale, and we are allowed to buy it, but we still have to follow the procedure then go to the site and browse with the public. We don’t get first dibs or employee discount.

    6. AliceBD*

      I think it depends on your workplace. It would be fine in mine, but we also make and sell consumable goods that are self-stable (not paper towels, but like paper towels — it’s one-time use, but it can sit on a shelf for years before you use it and be fine). When something is discontinued or partially used or a sample or otherwise not saleable we stick it in the breakroom for first-come-first-served taking it, but if it is under your department and you want to take it instead of putting it in the breakroom you can.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Check in with your boss.
      If you fix it, make sure that it is under your personal use. Don’t give it to other people once fixed.

      I am picturing you throwing out fax machines. After taking home your 5th or 6th one, your boss might ask you what you are doing with all of them. Ethically speaking they should all be in your home for your personal use and not in any one else’s home for their use.

  36. Semi-nonymous*

    Unfortunate workplace bathroom question, and recommendations for a white noise solution?

    My office at my job is very close to the bathrooms. In the past, we had a somewhat noisy HVAC system that apparently had the extra benefit of functioning as a bit of white noise. The HVAC system has been cleaned/maintained/adjusted in some way that now it’s much quieter. But that means that now, despite a somewhat loud bathroom fan, bathroom sounds aren’t really muffled. On good days I can only hear the sink running or toilet flushing. On bad days, I can hear way more than I want to of the bathroom occupants business. My office is also near our lobby and conference room, which means that guests could probably hear the same sounds I can.

    I’ve tried headphones and white noise in my office, which helps a little. But that doesn’t help the hallway/lobby/conference room noise. Any suggestions for something we can do there? I’m thinking of asking if we can put some kind of white noise machine in the corner of the hallway, and/or get a louder bathroom fan. It’s a really small business, so an inexpensive solution we can implement with basic handyman skills is the most likely to actually get done.

    Ugh, sorry for the bathroom questions, but such is my life.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Home improvement stores carry sound insulation boards which are easy to install over the existing drywall. Most are paintable. Covering one or two walls in the bathroom might work.

  37. Sophie*

    Hello!

    I’ve had a bit of strange week – I applied for a job and with thanks to my cover letter and updated CV from tips here, I got an interview for the next day! I interviewed on the Friday and they offered the job on the spot – they said, don’t rush with an answer, if you want to come in to view the role in more detail thats fine we can organise that.

    So, I organised a visit on Tuesday – When asked when I would give them a decision by, I said I would need a couple of days but definately by the end of the week. I emailed on the Wednesday afternoon to see if there was any room for negotiation on the salary – there was not. I did not email back to this – I had to have a think weather it was worth it again as a bigger salary would be a no brainer (longer travel time, only slightly better wage, but good first year bonus) I received an email this morning (Friday) to say that the offer has been retracted.

    I mean, I decided last night that I wanted to turn it down anyways, and was going to email during my lunch at work -but was I too slow in responding? Will this have burnt a bridge? Is it unusual?

    1. Jules the First*

      Well if you tried to ask about salary and we said we couldn’t budge and you went silent for three days, I’d probably have withdrawn the offer as well. Next time you should reply with something like ‘thanks for your honesty; I’m going to run some numbers to see if I can make this work and I’ll get back to you on Friday, if that’s ok.’

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Wow, they suck! Cliche time: you dodged a bullet. You did nothing wrong except maybe you should have emailed back to say “thanks, I’ll get back to you by Friday with my decision”. But if they are so thin-skinned that it caused them to retract your offer, then who cares. You did not burn any bridges because you were going to turn it down anyway.

      1. Sophie*

        Yeah, I can see how an acknowledgement would be better – I thought with already giving them a timeframe I would be okay there. Hindsight eh!

        I replied (It took me 30 mins to compose something, It takes me forever to feel like an email is ‘professional’ but I’m also unsure if I should have mentioned that I would definitely had a decision for them by today? I apologised for the delay in response and said I was disappointed but understood.

  38. Expert*

    If you’re interviewed for a forthcoming textbook-like publication (published by a national association in your field), is that something you can put on your resume assuming you’re included in the final publicaiton? How might it appear?

    1. Technical Editor & Resume Reviewer*

      I don’t think being an interviewee for a book is resume-worthy. If you wrote part of the publication, definitely.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d try to work it into a cover letter – considered a leader/expert in your field, interviewed for X.

  39. Jillociraptor*

    Any experience writing your own job description? Due to some changes in my organization, I’m sensing I have the opportunity to take on a bigger/different role. Have you ever proposed a new position? How did you frame it or justify it? Anything else to think about?

    1. Maria*

      If possible, account for structural and naming conventions that make clear when promotions or raises are appropriate. Really basic guidelines can be found on career sites. For example, Teapot Structural Engineer Level II, which is generally considered to involve 4 to 6 years of experience.

      If you invent a special snowflake description that doesn’t translate well anywhere else, you’re going to have trouble justifying advancement in the future.

    3. KiteFlier*

      I would find your current job description – ask HR or see if you have it in your records. Build directly off of that, crossing off things you no longer do, but more importantly adding things in. If the original JD said 3-5 years of experience and you know have 8, note that.

      1. Kay E*

        Sounds like you haven’t been asked to write a job description (JD) as you are “sensing” an opportunity. My suggestion is to first think a lot about what you could offer or responsibilities you could take on and then have a conversation with your leadership. Start that conversation by describing some of the challenges you see in the work place and see if they agree. (They may not see these as high priority or at all!) Then, you can introduce some of the ideas you have and what you might be able to contribute. Ideally, you would end the meeting by suggesting you draft a revised JD that you can review together or at least agree to pursue 1-2 of your suggestions.

    4. Pwyll*

      I had to do this when we split my job up as I was leaving a company. What I did is create a grid and literally write down everything I’d done that day, week and anything I could think of longer. Then I rewrote them all into the specific buckets that made sense (finance, HR, IT, admin). Then I figured out what I could condense into each other, and finally wrote out bullets for each of the duties.

      If you’re not in the job, try to do a thought exercise where you imagine your day and write all that down.

  40. Gene*

    Take Your Parents to Work Day

    Alison wrote about this a few years back, https://www.askamanager.org/2013/11/your-parents-dont-belong-in-your-workplace.html But Amazon just did a day and the local media has pretty much gone nuts over it.

    Examples:
    http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/amazon-employees-enjoy-bring-your-parents-to-work-day/449576009

    http://knkx.org/post/amazon-employees-bring-their-parents-work

    A Science Fair? I wonder if everyone got a Participant ribbon?

    What do you think?

    1. Jubilance*

      I’ve worked at 2 companies that did something similar, though they called it family day. At one company, I worked on a site that was closed to non-business visitors, and in both jobs I worked in laboratory environments where lots of PPE and other things were required, so visits weren’t common. It was cool to have a day to bring in my family so they could actually see what I did, especially since I worked in a fun lab with a lot of interesting equipment. It probably wouldnt be as fun just to see a regular old cube though.

    2. MsMaryMary*

      My workplace had a Friends and Family day a couple years ago, and I brought my parents. I’m single and I don’t have any kids, so I figured I’d bring my mom and dad. It was an informal, after work thing with drinks and snacks. No activities or demonstrations (demostrations of my job would be incredibly boring). My parents were delighted and my coworkers thought it was sweet. I work at a family owned, very family-oriented company, I think I actually scored some points with the owner by bringing my parents. It also gave me a way to participate and meet all my coworkers’ families without being the awkward one all alone at a family-centered event.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Hmmm. I see more bad things happening as a result of this than good things. I work at a university and my parents have been to campus, but they aren’t permitted in the office and there’s not much to see there anyway.

      An event like this could be fun, if the parents are interested, but my parents think my job is a bit of a joke.

    4. Cat steals keyboard*

      I don’t have parents who are in the picture, and would be very distressed by this. That’s just me and doesn’t mean everyone else can’t do anything parent related but my experience is that when people do something around parents they often forget not everyone has them and can frame it kind of insensitively as a result. It’s a normative assumption and I’d urge you to just bear that in mind.

      1. Cat steals keyboard*

        I mean bear it in mind when choosing your wording.

        And be sensitive to the fact that some people may want the day off to avoid being asked why they didn’t bring theirs, if it’s a raw issue.

  41. Two Part*

    I know this will vary by the question, but any guidance on how long a response to an interview question should be? I always feel like I ramble on or don’t speak long enough. Second part — what’s the best way to indicate you’re finished answering a question? I end up trailing off and that’s obviously not ideal.

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      I ran up against this during the oral exam segment of governmental hiring. The interviewer reads each question off the paper in front of you, and then you answer it without any back-and-forth or clarifying questions. I didn’t realize how much my typical interview style depended on the interviewer picking up the thread where I trailed off (like a conversation). I had to consciously end a verbal paragraph with “…which is why I would be a great fit for this position.” [or other restating of the question]. Very middle-school debate class.

    3. Jessi*

      I always try to answer the question. When I feel a bit rambly or like I am about to flounder I ask ‘does that answer your question’? So far its worked for me very well

  42. Cruciatus*

    I applied for a student advocate position and will soon be applying to an academic advisor position at the university I currently work for. Can anyone recommend books, articles, or studies that might benefit someone interesting in learning more about how to be an advisor and problems you might encounter or theories that are used by academic advisors at universities? Is anyone familiar with being either one of these and can comment on what it was like day-to-day or overall? Thanks!

    2. Overeducated*

      Maybe check out FromPhDtoLife, it has interviews with a lot of people who have gone into student support and career advising positions.

    3. Bawab*

      There are a few approaches you should look into. Appreciative advising, Developmental advising, and intrusive/proactive advising. These approaches cam be used in conjunction with each other, so it’s not as if you have to choose.

      You can get more information on them from the main advising professional organization NACADA. https://www.nacada.ksu.edu

  43. Way over there*

    I am 2 weeks into my new job and today finally had my first laugh. I actually found it my a great milestone, it means I am finally happy enough with the work and the coworkers that I can laugh at a joke, as opposed to my previous state of being consumed with anxiety and doubt.
    Seriously, I had the WORST case of new job jitters the last week, probably not helped by the fact I hadn’t did job hunting for 9 years. I spent every day second guessing my choices and wondering if I should run out the door, despite the fact that there is NO red flags in this office whatsoever.
    If today is any indication, I think the weeks ahead will get better soon!

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I think that’s a good sign that you will like your job. I feel like it takes me three months before I’m comfortable in a new position.

  44. Camellia*

    This morning I caught myself trying to do something that I’m not proud of.

    Background: Our department is managed by role, not by team, so our managers don’t sit with us and don’t personally see the work we do. Each team is comprised of a mix of roles. I love to send emails to the team and to the appropriate manager praising a person’s work, when warranted. By ‘warranted’ I mean not every day or for every little thing, because I think that dilutes the praise, but we get enough work that probably at least once a month I can send an email with specific details about what a great job someone did. Note that we are all peers and this is not something that we have to do, I just like to give credit where credit is due and help the manager gather info for reviews, etc.; it’s something I’ve always done.

    I have been able to do this for every person on our team, except one.

    We have three people with the same role and one of these people is sloppy, careless, and has a lack of attention to details, which forces other team members to constantly have to send his work back to him to re-do; this in turn lowers the amount of work he can produce compared to the other two. He can be quite rude and is often verbally abusive to other team members, including me. However, he is fantastic at schmoozing others in the department, including the higher-ups, and is often away from his cubicle doing just that (easily seen when walking to a meeting, etc.), and it is not unusual for THEM to also drop by HIS cubicle just to chat – his boss’s boss spent 30 minutes here just yesterday. In other words, a classic, charismatic abuser who abuses his ‘inner circle’ but presents quite a different face to the world.

    So this morning I found myself trying to come up with a “need” to praise the other two people in the role, but not him, just so I could send the email** and in a sly way try to say, “Hey, look, these two are great! And by my very omission of praise for the third person you should be able to see what a terrible person and coworker he is!”

    So yes, shame on me. I need to praise each team member on their own merits, when the time is right, and not try to fake up some praise just to try to make someone else look bad.

    **One ‘good’ person has one manager and the other ‘good’ person plus the ‘bad’ person have a different manager, so I would have to praise both ‘good’ ones in the same email in order to have an excuse to send the email to both managers. Yes, I had this all worked out…

    1. Camellia*

      When I was writing this post I first typed ‘smooze’ instead of ‘schmooz’ and that didn’t look right so I googled it. According to the Urban Dictionary, “Smooze is a fungus that can attack the plastic of a My Little Pony. It looks a bit like inground (sic) dirt. Sadly it eventually spreads throughout the pony and ruins her.”

      So, sort of like a flesh-eating bacteria for toys. And it kind of describes this guy’s effect on our team.

      1. Alice Ulf*

        Disturbingly, smooze can also infect other MLPs stored in the same container, so they must be forever quarantined.

        The term originally comes from this purple goo conjured up by witches in the animated My Little Pony: The Movie. It spreads across Ponyland and can only be stopped by the Flutter Ponies. :3

        *end nerdy childhood reminiscences here

    2. Oldie*

      Good for you resisting that urge! Opportunities will arise for genuine praise, and the manipulator will eventually get his comeuppance (though, sometimes “eventually” can be a very long time).

    4. Sibley*

      Seems like someone is avoiding being a manager. Not sure who, but your words are “sloppy, careless, and has a lack of attention to details, which forces other team members to constantly have to send his work back to him to re-do; this in turn lowers the amount of work he can produce compared to the other two. He can be quite rude and is often verbally abusive to other team members, including me.”

      That’s grounds for a serious conversation with him, to be followed by termination if the behavior doesn’t improve.

      1. Camellia*

        Oh, I agree 100%, but 1), the managers don’t sit close to us or participate in meetings or anything like that, so no one other than the team witnesses what he does/says, and 2) I’m guessing he must have a lot of political capitol because those of us who have spoken to our managers about his behavior just brush it off.

  45. QJNL*

    Hello! I’m wondering if someone can give me some pointers here…

    6 months ago during scheduled merit increase, I got a small percent increase due to the length of my time on the job. My boss said in an email hoping that she can do a mid-term adjustment later in the Fall as well. Now it’s Fall time (at least the weather for sure is here), I don’t know what would be a good way to bring this up to her attention by not sounding to greedy… Today marked my anniversiry with the company and she has been giving me more and more responsibility since I started. She always comment “you’re doing a very good job” when I ask her for feedback (not excellent, or great though). The client like my work and happy that I’m here. Could this be a reason to ask for a bigger raise?
    Thanks for anybody input!

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Hmm, maybe wait a few weeks? Fall is only 9 days old. Or you could ask for a review now since you just hit your 1-year mark and bring it up then.

    2. LEY*

      I’d bring it up now! A 1 year anniversary is a good time and I think everybody would consider the end of September “fall.” Either the raise is in the cards or it isn’t, bringing it up a month from now instead of right now won’t effect the outcome, just ensure that you would be paid the lower amount for this month.

  46. CrazyEngineerGirl*

    Has anyone doing the job search thing ever felt guilt over not applying for a job?

    So, I’m an engineer. Let’s say I’m a Teapot Design Engineer, think functional design not aesthetic design. My current job is crazy toxic so I’ve started looking for a new job. The search is pretty limited, looking for X type of engineer, with experience doing A, B and C, and located in a handful of cities/areas.

    I recently came across a job posting that my current employer could use 90% of to hire my replacement, basically a really good skill/experience match. And it’s located in one of the few areas on my list. But the company/job are just not something I’m interested in, think super-modern, minimalistic, birdbath design. And I just could not care less about super-modern, minimalistic, birdbaths. Not to mention I’m not a good enough actress to pretend to care around people who are for several years. So after going back and forth repeatedly, I’ve landed firmly on not applying for it. I’m only 6 weeks into my job search (I know I might make a different decision if it was many months into my search) and I’m holding out for a job I really want to do in an industry I really want to work in.

    That all being said, I am feeling overcome with guilt about not applying for the job! It’s driving me insane! I have good reasons for deciding not to apply I think, but I’m just racked with guilt over it. Has this ever happened to anyone else?

    1. Kai*

      I’ve done this many times. Even if it’s not a job I’m interested in, I’ll get stuck in a whirlwind of “I should apply anyway, because you never know, maybe I’d actually love it or it would open up new opportunities down the road that I wouldn’t get otherwise,” and so on and so on. Especially when you’re currently in a job you don’t like, you feel obligated to apply to things you wouldn’t otherwise care about.

    2. J*

      Yes. In fact, there are two jobs right now that are related to my field (not quite what I do, but really close) that I keep looking at because I want to leave my current job. Only I know that those jobs aren’t for me. They require strengths that I not only do not have, but also have no interest in cultivating.

      Because I wouldn’t be able to make a strong case for hire, I’m not applying. It’s a waste of everyone’s time if I do.

    3. Way over there*

      Yeah, definitely second that feeling. I experienced it myself a few months back – I was out of work, and the interviews weren’t coming in… why am I not applying for ALL the openings??? Even worse if it’s a opening that a friend pointed out.
      I think in the end only you would know what you truly want though. I mean, if the company marketing website and job scope already bores you, imagine how bad would it be if you got the job and actually had to spend 40 hours a week working on it! And friends and family also cannot be sure what you want in the next step. They mean well, but you don’t have to follow through with their suggestions.
      Good luck in the job search!

    4. College Career Counselor*

      Yes. Just because you CAN do the job doesn’t mean you should APPLY for the job, because there are other factors involved such as location, pay, size of organization, etc. In this case, it’s the product you don’t care about in the slightest. Ask yourself how long it would take before you were clawing your hair out in boredom if you did take the gig, and there’s your answer to why you shouldn’t apply.

    5. CrazyEngineerGril*

      Thanks you guys! It’s definitely the first time I’ve felt guilt at choosing not to apply for a job and I was, quite frankly, feeling a little alone and ridiculous! Just knowing other people understand and have experienced this weirdness before totally helps!!

    6. CMT*

      Yes, all the time! I so badly want to leave my current job and location so I do kind of feel the need to apply for everything I’m qualified for. But I know that I don’t really need to and that I shouldn’t do that.

  47. March*

    Mixed responses at a career fair this week. I had a great discussion with one person at a company I’d love to get with, he took my resume to pass along to a department that really, really interests me, and he himself works with the team that I’m applying for a job in! I sent him a followup email the next day so I’ve got my fingers crossed.

    Other companies were… pretty clearly there to fill a quota. Disinterested, discouraging, and overall unwilling to talk at all. It wasn’t even like they were busy, they just obviously didn’t care at all about recruiting. I’m still glad I went.

  48. New grad*

    My job relationship with my job is complicated. It is interesting but at the same time I feel underpaid and underappreciated while carrying huge responsibilities. Part of the reason are the shifting responsibilities and having to learn on the fly while my only support is often not the people I work with but people from another branch of company which are in another country. People in my branch just don’t have the knowledge.
    Currently, it is this reporting integration project which transfers data to their own system. I mean it was sold to the client as this amazing system which is so powerful and easy to operate but when I started using it it feels like it is not up to par with something like excel. All I do is ask their product team in the other country to help me.I feel powerless as when I coded stuff I could at least google it. Now I can’t.
    Sometimes, it is the comments. The director was like ‘I miss Director Y’ as he was so smart and could figure it out fast. Or the person from other department who complains that I am asking for stuff because I don’t have knowledge yet.
    Of course I don’t. I am new and I don’t work on main line of business. It is as if people expect me to be expert on main business lines which I don’t think Group Director Z is interested in teaching me), having deep knowledge if the platforms and their own intricacies, and learning new platforms and programing languages on the fly.
    Worst is the expectations without recognition. Did they teach me anything? No, I have to call people around, read documentation, and so on. Other team members in more established departments get awards and I just feel like nobody appreciates what I do. I am not a magician or programmer, I am just new grad. So, how do I deal with all of this…

    1. Product Person*

      Hi, New grad,

      I’m going to reply to your question because you sound very much like an employee my husband had to deal with recently. I hope you’ll gain some useful insight from this story

      My husband’s whole team was complaining about a system admin they had hired, and how much he needed help all the time because he couldn’t figure new things out on his own. He was very good at doing repetitive work after being given the instructions on how to execute it, but the job he had was 90% about learning technical stuff in new domains in order to install servers and update networks with different configurations without much assistance. The job expectation is that the person will learn on the fly, try things out, read the logs to understand why errors are happening, and work independently to fix these errors. This guy repeatedly expressed frustration that nobody would take the time to teach him when he was assigned a new task, but in fact, if my husband and his colleagues had to stop what they were doing to teach the guy every time, it just made more sense to go ahead and do the work themselves, as the task would get done much faster. It’s not as if training him once would solve the problem, because the next week the need would be different, and the employee would ask again to be taught how to execute the task.

      In the end they let the guy go, and covered the tasks until a new person was hired who was a much better fit. The new guy was also given tasks for which he hadn’t been trained, but he was comfortable working independently, searching technical forums for answers, trying things out and seeing what happened, and fixing issues on his own. Even if it took much longer than it would have taken if one of the senior staff had offered to teach him or help him debug issues, the team was very happy because they no longer had someone interrupting their work all the time to ask for help (speed wasn’t a requirement; getting the work done as independently as possible was).

      Some people are better at this type of job than others, who require a more structured and supportive environment to succeed. It looks like your job needs a self-learner who is comfortable with jumping into tasks without being given all the resources and knowledge to execute it, and perhaps you need to start thinking about how to transition out of this job and into another one that is a better fit. To feel appreciated and have leverage to ask for raises, you first need to make sure you’re in the right role and exceeding expectations. There’s nothing wrong with realizing you need a job with different characteristics than the one you have for that to happen. Good luck!

  49. plzhelp*

    In a recent interview I was asked what I disliked about my previous jobs. I wasn’t sure how to handle that because on the one hand, you shouldn’t say anything negative about an employer, but everyone has something that they don’t like. What are your thoughts?

    1. MacGirl*

      I hate this question, and I wasn’t quite prepared for it in interviewing for my current job. I stated that I couldn’t think of anything off the top of my head and asked if I could come back to it. Toward the end of the interview, I mentioned that while I loved the job itself, my team and I were understaffed certain days of the week and that put added stress on me to get certain things done. I added that it was no one’s fault, but at times wore me down. I think asking for time to consider it and then framing whatever issue in a polite manner lessens the likelihood of portraying an employer in a negative way.

    2. Murphy*

      I would try to keep my answers about the work itself. “Didn’t get to do enough design work,” “Too much data entry,” etc. (Although obviously don’t say “too much data entry” if you’re interviewing for a data entry position.)

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I said “Expense reports. Does anyone really enjoy doing them?” And the woman glared at me and cut the interview short. But boy was I lucky, because it was an interview to be Jeffrey Epstein’s assistant. He later made national news for having his assistant find him underage girls to abuse (he’s the guy that supposedly hired a 17-year old woman to be a sex slave for Prince Andrew, which seems far-fetched to me). I’ve always wondered how I would have handled it if I ended up getting that job – my guess is that I would have walked out with no notice the first time I was asked to find him a high-schooler to give him a massage.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Wow. Holy crap. Bullet dodged.

        FWIW, I think if you were hired you would have handled the problems VERY well.

    4. Zoe*

      I would frame it in very general terms and then tie it back to why you’re pumped about working at their company. “The jobs I tend to enjoy the most have been focused on customer service and interaction, while some areas I don’t enjoy as much are data entry and administration. That’s one of the reasons this position at Teapot Corp really appeals to me, since I’d be working so closely with customers, with minimal time spent on data entry.”

    5. Eddie Turr*

      I think your best bet is to identify things that are fairly neutral about your previous job that make it not right for you, rather than demonstrating that the whole place is a dumpster fire. Ideally, the things you don’t like would be eliminated or remedied by making the switch to the job you’re interviewing for. So, something like: “Well, there’s a lot to like about Teapots International, but I find myself getting antsy as a dedicated rep for a single client and I’m looking for a position where I’d get to work with a variety of clients.”

      Something not caring for the schedule, commute, industry, etc. will also work if you’re confident that you the job you’re interviewing for would not come with that same schedule/commute/industry.

      Think of it as a different way of asking “Why are you looking to change jobs?” rather than “Tell me everything you hate about your previous job.” Because yeah, your instincts are right that complaining about the job looks bad, even if your complaints are valid.

      1. Not Karen*

        Yes, answer with something that you know will be different at the new job. For instance, my current employer has the word “collaborative” all over the website. During the interview, I mentioned that OldJob wasn’t collaborative enough for me.

    6. Clever Name*

      For my last job, I would answer that I didn’t have enough work to do, yet I was expected to be 99% chargeable. I even had to take personal leave one day because my boss said there was nothing for me to do.

  50. Rebecca*

    I’m so excited! I have an interview on Monday. I am trying not to be too nervous. I know what I’m doing, the job description reads like an exact list of everything I do at my current job, and I have a job (that I’m unhappy in, but still, I have a job). Tonight, I’m going to try on my suit jacket and skirt, complete with shoes, just to make sure it’s all OK, make sure I have extra copies of my resume and references in my portfolio, and have a great weekend. It will all come down to pay and benefits. As unhappy as I am at my current job, happiness doesn’t put fuel oil in the tank, gas in the car, or groceries on the table. I hope to make at least a lateral move.

    Wish me luck!

  51. Jaguar*

    What reasonable expectation is there on employees to self-manage projects?

    This has happened to some degree at any job I’ve been in, but this one is by far the worst. I’ll be assigned some task of any level of complexity from simple to gigantic, but for the sake of explanation, we’ll keep it to one example: build a mobile app for our clients to get information on their projects. What I just wrote is typically about the level of explanation I’m given (although, sometimes, I can scope out a little bit). So I’ll go off, plan it, build the first version of it, and then tell my managers (I have three that all act the same way), and then nothing. Eventually, after giving them far more than enough time to plan their own schedules, I’ll mention it to them, at which point it’s, “let’s talk about this later” or “continue to follow up with me to get my attention for this.” Basically, hound them to get them to look at a project that’s more important to them than it is to me.

    I’m really resistant to do this fighting for their attention to explain to them the thing they originally asked me to do. I want to be able to trust their ability to manage their own time and decide when they want to discuss a project. Am I off base here? Should I feel obligated to harass them for time to discuss projects they initiated and they need to provide basic feedback on (I’m talking very basic looking at something and “yes, this is what I want” or “no, change this” feedback here). I’m given a lot of projects like this and if I’m expected to fight to get time from management (which is passive indication that the project isn’t really that important) on stuff that I don’t fully understand the reasoning behind and can’t convince myself is that useful or even a particularly good idea to begin with, I am going to rapidly start hating my job. My survival mechanism really is carry out the project to the best of my ability, be very clear that I’ve gotten it as far as I can go and need some level of input from them, and then put it out of my mind aside from periodic status-update e-mails and move onto something else. I’m much more comfortable letting a project go cold than I am getting invested in it emotionally and having it go cold do to perceived indifference.

    Do I need to adjust my thinking here? I never do this when I’m managing others, so I can’t relate to the behaviour at all.

    1. fposte*

      This actually sounds fairly normal to me, though admittedly I’m in the Wild West that is academics. If I’m handing a project to you and I think you’re capable, my plan to check over it before it goes to wherever is pretty low priority, and my staff sometimes does have to remind me sometimes that this spinning plate is still spinning among the others. If this has been happening to you in more than one position, it may be that you just have expectations of scrutiny that are higher than most jobs deliver. It’s also possible that you may not realize where projects are on your managers’ hierarchy of priorities. (Though if they’re telling you it’s the Most Important Thing and then dropping it, that’s obnoxioius.)

      I think your response is reasonable; if your managers aren’t taking the project up when you signal it’s ready, you put it on the back burner and turn your energies elsewhere; I certainly wouldn’t fight for time if the person who’d benefit from it doesn’t want to give any.

      1. Jaguar*

        Yeah, I’m just asking because management has become a huge bottleneck for my work (I’ll work on something up to the point that I can’t proceed until I get feedback, tell them I’m at that point, and then let them prioritize when they want to address it) and I’m wondering if the expectation is for me to hound my managers for time when I don’t know what else they’re working on and how important what I’m working on is relative to it. When I ask about how they want me to address stuff that I can’t proceed with until they give me feedback, I’m often told to repeatedly ask them to look at stuff. I really don’t want to do that and it also seems like it’s not something I should be doing as the managers should be able to assess their own priorities. I’m wondering if that thinking is incorrect and it’s reasonable to tell subordinates to constantly fight for your attention when the subordinates (obviously) don’t have a full view of what else is on their manager’s plate.

        1. DoDah*

          I feel you on this. I just got a workflow notification that my VP approved something that I assigned to him three months ago (this is typical). I waited a month and then just proceeded forward without his feedback. One of these days this approach is going to bite me in the behind.

          This VP doesn’t keep his calendar current, doesn’t tell us if he is on vacay or if he is traveling and has a 60% no-show rate for meetings.

        2. J.B.*

          Well, it’s not particularly reasonable. But some managers operate that way. I tend to continue pestering because of being in more of a project management role. And there are ways to set things up to get more likelihood of response, such as lay out specific milestones and really highlight and continue to nicely ask for more on the key boss milestones. Or to do the “if I don’t hear from you by x I will do this”. But your case doesn’t seem to rise to the level of needing that involvement.

    2. Clever Name*

      Do the managers request a ton of changes and overhauling, or are they usually, “That looks fine”? If they usually rubber-stamp what you do, I’d be tempted to work on it through completion and present it to them as a done deal. If there’s a part you’re not sure on, take a guess and do that and see what happens. It sounds like they just don’t have the time to check in with you as frequently as you’d like, as sucky as that is.

      1. Jaguar*

        No, they like to make changes.

        But nevertheless, I’m not looking for constant feedback. I’m finishing projects to my understanding of the requirements and presenting it to them. It’s not an ideal situation (being able to solicit regular feedback would cut down on a lot of wasted work), but I gave up that battle almost immediately.

        1. Not really a newish lurker anymore...*

          How are you phrasing your notification of completion to them?

          I might try going with something along the lines of “I’m ready to demo project J for you. Let’s meet on Tuesday from 9-930.”

          1. Jaguar*

            Yeah, something along those lines. “The such-and-such you asked for is now complete and I can make it live after you’re okay with it” or “I need to know what information you want to present here, here, here, and here before I can complete this” or whatever. I don’t specify a date because their schedules are more tightly controlled than mine is, so I let them sort that out.

            1. zora.dee*

              I would still start to ask for in-person meetings to get these things confirmed. And do what you have to to get them scheduled, even if it means sending them a meeting notice. They can send back a different time if they need to, but that might be a strong enough nudge to get them to respond.

              That’s what I would start with. But if that doesn’t work, the next step could be “These steps are done, and it’s ready to go live October 1 unless you tell me otherwise.” That one is more the nuclear option, so you have to determine if it would be really bad at your workplace.

    3. NW Mossy*

      Do you not have regular 1-on-1’s with your bosses? Assuming not, can you push for them? Getting some reliable time on their calendars on a reasonably frequency (weekly/biweekly/monthly) might be the best way to solve this, because you’ll get them in person and can say in advance, “I want to show you X, Y, and Z for your comments and approval this time.”

      And as a manager, I just want to say that I think it’s extremely obnoxious to restrict your reports’ access to you and the information you have, whether intentionally or not. Everyone with a boss needs to be checking in sometimes and it’s beneficial on both sides of the table. One of the very first things I learned in manager training is that 1-on-1’s are at the heart of what you do and should be taken seriously, which means having them on calendar and rescheduling/canceling is rare.

      1. Jaguar*

        My direct manager is available whenever I need him to be, but I take work directly from him and everyone at his level or above, right up to the CEO. I can nail any of them down as needed, but if they’re showing no enthusiasm to move forward on a project they’ve asked me to proceed with, I don’t have the interest to keep pestering them to talk about it. I always have other things I can move onto, so I just do that and let them come back to it whenever they want. What I’m wondering is if I’m being derelict in the expected duties of any given employee to let them get to it when they want as opposed to constantly jockeying for their time when I don’t know how important the project is to them to begin with.

    4. Trix*

      “Hi Boss, I’ve got a first version of Project that I’d love for you to take a look at! I’ll go ahead and book some time on your calendar.”

      I live by my calendar, and even when I have the very best of intentions, if it’s not on there, it will almost certainly get bumped for something that is. This might be a personal preference (although it’s definitely a common practice in my office, so it’s not just me), but I keep my calendar updated for a reason, so anyone can pull up a meeting request and see when I’m free. If it’s not blocked off (busy, out of office, outside regular work hours, whatever), then it’s fair game.

      Then, if they blow off the meeting, I’d follow up with an email that says something like “So sorry we didn’t get a chance to chat today. I feel good about the direction I’m headed in, so unless you have any particular concerns, I’m happy to just go ahead with the next stage starting Monday, after I’ve finished This Other Thing.”

      This might only work for the very early versions, but it lets them know that unless you hear from them by This Specific Date, you’ll take it as approval and keep going.

  52. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

    It’s me again. References were called on Monday and I’m so anxious. I was told that I am one of two finalists. I’m curious because some other friends have been told that that too and have ultimately received offers. For those in HR, do they just say that so they can let you down easy if your references don’t check out or are there really two finalists? I guess I don’t get the calling references for two people thing and in my own experience interviewing you usually know you like one person best. Also, any words of encouragement so I can keep my head on straight? I know that checking references isn’t a sure thing (although I know mine were glowing) but I am soooo impatient! Thanks y’all!

    1. fposte*

      We call references for every finalist. Sometimes we do have a favorite, but we don’t want to emotionally invest in somebody until we hear what other people have thought of their work.

    2. CMT*

      Well, there’s a 50-50 chance you get the job if you’re one of two, so I wouldn’t let your friends’ past experiences guide you here. Just take HR at their word.

    3. BRR*

      It’s not an uncommon policy to call reference for all finalists. I would take it at face value. You’re one of two finalists and they’re checking your references. No more.

    4. vpc*

      Yep, we called references for two finalists recently – one person who interviewed slightly better, whose references didn’t respond to multiple requests for a phone call, and one person who was slightly better on paper and whose references responded immediately with glowing feedback. Guess which one we hired?

  53. Golden Lioness*

    This one is a bit mixed, so I hope it’s OK.

    I’ve been feeling a bit stale lately and been dreaming of getting a job in NYC. Anyone from NYC that can give me their impressions and advice about moving there?
    Was getting interviews more difficult living out of state?

    How do you deal with the high COL, especially coming from a big city with a great COL. Mostly concerned about housing. My preference would be to live in the city, not the suburbs, which is a lot more expensive.

    Any feedback, ideas, tips and sharing of experiences will be much appreciated!!!
    Hope everyone is having a great day!
    Goldie

    1. J*

      My family and I relocated to the tri-state area over the summer after living in Chicago for a long time. (My husband and daughter spent their lives there, and I’d been there for 20+ years.) I don’t love NYC. Part of it is my commute (2 hrs each way from where we live in CT). Part of it is that it’s just not my town. Chicago is more spread out, less dense, and of course, less expensive (still pricey, though).

      As far as out of state interviewing, I was actually fairly fortunate that I saw a good response rate to my applications. I think I sent out 20 or so and received call backs from two. It helped that my husband’s company was picking up the tab for the relocation (and I mentioned that in the cover letter).

      1. Golden Lioness*

        Thank you so much. I come from a huge city (in Latin America) so I love big cities, and I loved NYC every time I visited. I still understand that it’s a very different experience when you actually live some place.

        I would definitely not enjoy a long commute, which is why I clarified that I would like to actually live in the city. That comes with its own sets of challenges.

        I’ve heard very good things about Chicago and Boston, too. I could consider them as well.

        Sigh! I don’t know why I’ve been feeling so “off” lately. I’ve been daydreaming about moving somewhere else. Funny thing is I actually always liked this city OK. Not sure why I’ve acquired this bad case of wanderlust.

        1. LEY*

          I LOVE Boston. I would highly recommend it. Definitely has a high cost of living and annoying commutes, but it’s a great city and I like it a lot more than NYC.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      NYC resident here. I moved here from another big east coast city with a similar (but slightly better) COL, so it wasn’t as big of an adjustment for me. You have to get comfortable with the idea of living with a roommate, or living in a less exciting neighborhood, or dealing with a long commute. I started in Manhattan and slowly moved to less and less desirable neighborhoods, as I kept getting priced out by the rental market. I finally wound up moving to Brooklyn and getting a roommate in a very cute, but not amazingly accessible neighborhood. Also be prepared to spend a ton of money just applying for apartments. Rent is expensive, but you also have to factor in broker’s fees, application fees, credit check fees, etc. There are a lot of one-time upfront costs.

      Getting interviews out of state was very difficult for me, but that can vary on job field and industry.

      I love living here, and I think it sounds like you love the big city experience, so you’ll probably love it too. It’s worth trying once in your life — no one says you have to stay forever! Happy to answer any other questions you have about NYC living :)

      1. Golden Lioness*

        Thank you so much for your answer! I am comfortable with roommates. I am actually renting a room to a friend in my house at the moment. I am very social and love company, so as long as I can retrieve to my “cave” about one a week or so I am set. I have equity in my house, so that would probably help a lot. The only line I draw is the long commute. The most I’d be able to stomach is 1 hr (each way) but I am used to 15- 20 minutes commutes for the past 6 years. I’ve been lucky to find jobs conveniently located. My current job is a 40-45 min commute because the parking is remote and need to take a shuttle.

        I did a COL comparison and put all of the things and conveniences I currently have here… and it told me I’d have to make $ 375K/year to have the same lifestyle… how about no? I can adjust my expectations (like I would no longer need a car). I love that NY has public transportation and that you can walk places (my home city was like that too). A car is a necessity here, and I find that annoying!

        Last time I visited I went to Brooklyn and I liked it. I wanted to see it because I was curious but also to walk the bridge. But I just love the energy and the vibe of Manhattan… sigh! I wish money was not a problem.

        As for my skills, I have very transferable skills and have a mix of legal and business education and experience, so I am hopeful I should be able to find a job. The hurdle is being able to fly back and forth for in-person interviews. I don’t think I could just quit and move there without a job.

        I am surprised you have to pay to apply for apartments. Here you just fill out the form, the apartment manager does the background/credit check and you’re done. The application fee is less that $100 (I have never been turned down for an apartment) and you only pay deposit and fees once you’ve been approved. I have good credit, if that counts for something.

        Other than Brooklyn what other parts of the suburbs would you recommend I look at?

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          OMFG, the broker situation is unbelievable. Most charge 15% of a year’s rent!

          If you find a no-fee apartment (often in larger buildings that have their own leasing agents), the rent will likely be higher than a comparably sized apartment that goes through a broker. Then it’s your call as to which will be higher over your length of stay in the apartment — the difference in rent multiplied by X months, or the one-time, enormous broker’s fee.

          1. Golden Lioness*

            I would imagine that if you are going to stay at the same place, then paying the broker’s fee will be cheaper in the long run. It’s just that some times you plan to stay, but then life happens.

            I don’t have a preference on big vs small buildings or old/new construction. The house is just a place to store my stuff and sleep, while I am out having fun.

            How about pets? I have a pair or geriatric very spoiled cats. I would not go anywhere I could not bring them.

            The reason I ended up buying was because most apartment with charge an extra deposit per animal and “pet rent” per animal per month. I always thought that was shoddy. I liked the flexibility that I could pick up and move at leisure, now that own it’s not so easy to do that, though I can always sell.

        2. Mreasy*

          I will tell you, it’s possible not to have a nightmare apartment-finding experience, especially if you move into a place with roommates. They’ve already paid the broker fee! I’ve had incredible luck here (14 years resident), and while my rent is many, many times what I’d pay in most cities…I’m not really interested. I love this place, it’s home, and it’s got everything you could ever want culturally.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I’ve lived here for so long that I don’t even have a concept any more of what it would be like to come here from a place with lower COL. (On the other hand, when I see what I could afford real estate-wise in any other city except San Francisco, my eyes fall out of my head.)

      Do not underestimate the enormous bite that housing will take out of your budget. You will likely end up compromising on one or more of amount of space, how well-kept the space is, and/or location. I’m currently dealing with this by renting a large (by NYC standards) apartment in a good location, but in a crap-hole of a building. Anywhere else in America (okay, except the Bay Area), for the amount of rent my husband and I are paying, we would live in a gleaming palace of an apartment. Instead, we have uneven heating in the winter, cracked flooring, and a ceiling that leaks at least a couple of times a year. Bleh.

      On the other hand, there are an incredible number of free or low-cost events (not to mention the not-so-low-cost events) that you can take advantage of if you live here. (And you should. I would argue that if you live in NYC and you’re mostly staying home and watching Netflix, you should do it in a cheaper city!)

      1. Golden Lioness*

        Thank you! Housing is my main worry, because it’s very affordable here compared to the rest of the country. I know I cannot afford anything as nice as the super cute, spacious town home in one of the best parts of town like I do now.

        To me the most important thing is location, precisely because one the appeals of big cities is to take advantage of all the events, festivals, shows and cultural things that are always going on. I don’t mind small places (used to live in a 430sq ft apartment and I was OK with it). You won’t catch me watching Netflix… I will probably not even have cable. The problem will definitely be closet space I have so many clothes! and don’t even get me started on the shoes! lol

        And yes, I agree about San Francisco. I remember back in ’05 I was walking down the crookedest street and the was this tiny efficiency with a small kitchenette (not even full kitchen!) for rent and it was listed for $3.5K/mo. We were talking about how crazy that was. At that time my rent was $750/mo for comparison, although I was in the suburbs.

    4. Eileen*

      Have you done any checking on StreetEasy to get a feel for what apartments cost in areas you’d want to live in? Or the other way – finding which neighborhoods you could afford? Don’t forget Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx – there are a lot of vibrant neighborhoods there too that have good access to midtown. And if you’re cool with roommates, getting a 2 or 3 bedroom and splitting can be a much better deal than a 1 bedroom or studio.

      I found I got much better responses to my applications when I moved here vs. when I was searching from out of town, unfortunately.

      Good luck!

      1. Golden Lioness*

        Thank you! All of that is very good advice.
        I decided that I am going to start looking for postings and do more research on apartments and places to live.

        I will be going on vacation next week, but after I come back I’ll start making things happen =)

  54. Loopy*

    This might be more or a rant than anything else but- office gossip! A few coworkers in our open office plan like to sit together for inordinate amounts of time and whisper. If I didn’t know it was at least partially work stuff I could care less but I hate *knowing* they whisper and gossip about people here. It’s just a bad vibe I get. For context I sit right next to where this takes place but have crappy hearing so I only catch tiny snatches of names or the occasional word.

    I’ve minimalized my interactions with them but now I’m still always paranoid of being the subject of their covert little gossip meetings. I feel a little crazy/ like I’m back in high school.

    Am I right to be a little annoyed this is happening in an adult environment?!

    1. Loopy*

      Also drat, that little detail at the beginning is rather telling. Hopefully none of my colleagues are reading! Is there any way to edit/delete posts?

      1. Lily in NYC*

        No, but maybe email Alison through the “report an ad, tech or typo issue here” link and ask her to delete it for you?

        1. Loopy*

          Oh gosh thanks!!!! As soon as I posted I was like uhhh that’s not a very common occurrence!

          However I am sure office gossip certainly is, unfortunately.

          1. Lily in NYC*

            Well, I still remember what you wrote so I’m going to blackmail you unless you mail me two cookies every month.

  55. Fabulous*

    Finally through the pre-employment stage at my [former] temp job – as of Monday I will be a full-time permanent employee!!

    After 3 years of temping various jobs and 4.5 months here, this is LONG overdue…

    1. Jadelyn*

      Congratulations!! My job converted from temp to regular in February of this year, after two years of temping here and three years of temping at other places before that. It’s funny, because I was already an “internal temp” (not working through an agency) and had full benefits, so I didn’t think the conversion of position type would actually effect me very much…until it finally happened. So I know how awesome that feeling is, and I’m so happy for you!

  56. KatieKate*

    Shana Tova fellow Jews! Because of the many Jewish holidays I am only working 13 days in October o_O. Any advice on how to make those days count? Most of my field is also not in the office for the same reason, so I am really just falling behind on time.

  57. louise*

    Hey everyone, OP from this post a couple of weeks ago.

    So, the week after my post, I was courted by a recruiter for a contract position. I interviewed and my resume and credentials were well received. I’ve had contact with the recruiter and the company throughout the process. But my main qualm is that it’s a contract to hire position. Everything else fits that I’m not getting at my current job – mentorship and professional development, exciting new projects, I would get to dip my toe in my niche dream field, rigorous training on an industry program, and the resources of a worldwide company. But I’m hesitant to leave a full time job with benefits, awful as it may be.

    Initially, I was told the length of the contract was 6-8 weeks, then I would be brought on as a direct hire. However, when I spoke with the company yesterday, they said they were imagining 6-12 months, and then we could reassess. I really feel like I am going to get screwed over whenever the contract is over, so I’m trying to negotiate the salary up to compensate for that.

    Does anyone have any suggestions here? My current situation is pretty bad, but I would like to be picky about my next job and find a position where I’m broadening my experience and actually getting closer to the field I really want to work in. Like I said, this fits everything but the hire status. Does the fact that it’s a contract seem to be a red flag?

    1. Golden Lioness*

      Why do you distrust them? I had 2 jobs that started like that and both became permanent after the contract expire.
      Are you seeing any red flags?

    2. Fabulous*

      Definitely clarify the length of the position and how long before you’re considered a temp before hire – with the company, not the recruiter. A lot of recruiting agencies I feel like use “6-8 weeks” as a placeholder if they don’t know the actual term. I was told that at the beginning of me last job and it turned out to be 12 weeks coverage for a maternity leave – which I found out once I started working at the company. Sometimes recruiting agencies just aren’t told that information too. I would go by the company’s information you were given.

    3. an anon*

      Keep in mind that a lower pay rate for 6-8 weeks of you paying your own taxes and insurance is probably a lot more bearable than a lower pay rate for 6-12 months. You will have to get insurance thru the Marketplace (you can go look at plans in your zip code now to get a sense of how expensive they can be). You will have to pay self-employment tax. Etc. Think hard about what level of pay would make that worth it.

      1. louise*

        They don’t typically hire contract employees, they told me this office had never hired a contract employee before. Another hesitation about contract employment there for me!

        1. Golden Lioness*

          Ah, there’s the catch. It sounds like this is false advertising! In my case I already knew that had hired contractors before, so I trusted them when they told me there was a chance of becoming full time.

            1. Golden Lioness*

              Yes. well not exactly that they won’t hire you, but if it’s not their normal practice that means your chances of going permanent are lower than if you knew they routinely do this.

              Having said that, they may have a good reason why they are doing this with this particular position. I’d try to get more information.

              My last contract job was supposed to be 4 weeks, no more than 8, and I ended up there for almost 9 months, so you never know. I say if you like the work you’re going to be doing and will help you pick up new skills along the way, it’s a good thing regardless of the contract. When you’re job searching you cna always explain that the shorter stint was just a temporary contract. I have 2 or 3 of those in a row and it was never held against me when I talked to recruiters or hiring managers.

  58. LawCat*

    Thanks for tips last week to help spouse, who is unhappy and demoralized at work because of toxic boss, but is so drained and unhappy that he’s been having a hard time actually doing anything about it. He has been very hesitant to apply for a job he is interested in that pays much less than he earns now because he feels like he won’t be contributing to the household. I again assured him this week that we could accommodate that in our budget and we could even accommodate him quitting. We discussed that possibility and even further and made a plan for him to target getting out two applications per week through the end of the year and if nothing worked out, he could quit at the end of the year.

    I helped him with a tailored cover letter and resume, and he submitted the application to the lower paying job he was interested in! Even if this opportunity does not pan out, I’m hoping for momentum from here. Next week, he’s planning to work on job search/applications at a nearby coffee shop after work so he doesn’t have to concern himself with things at home until he’s done (that was a great tip from someone here at AAM!) He’s also going to look at the community college catalog when it comes out and may enroll in a class or two. He took one earlier in the year, loved it, and was a step toward getting educated in an area he’d like to work in.

    So there’s been less negative self-talk from him this week and steps to move forward. I’m optimistic!

    2. Golden Lioness*

      This is great news! I know exactly how it feels and it’s hard to get going when you are feeling so low, but now that he’s started to do something about it he’s going to feel a little better every day and do more, especially when he starts getting calls and potential interviews.

  59. mayna*

    Just need to vent… I have an all day on site interview coming up which is great and all, but I feel like I’ve been off of my game the whole time I’ve been in contact with this company. I made an error in my application and I’ve tried to correct it, but it keeps coming up, because new people get involved in the hiring process and I have to re-explain the problem. I have also never had an interview longer than 45 minutes (and thats when the interviewer does most of the talking). I have no idea what we could possibly talk about for 6+ hours. They will probably ask some technical questions, but I’ve always sucked at articulating my knowledge. I am trying to brush up on stuff but it is going much slower than I expectetd. I feel like I’ve lost the job before the interview even starts. I really need the job thought becuase I graduated almost a year ago, and its getting to the point where I can’t call myself a new grad anymore, but I have no experience either. I don’t want to/can’t be stuck in my parents house that much longer.

    1. Golden Lioness*

      Remember that we’re always our own worst critics. You may have done much better than you thought you did.
      Good luck!

  60. MBA Question*

    For those of you who have received an MBA (or are in the process), particularly from high ranked programs, what was your experience like? Was it totally cut throat? Were the classes diverse in terms of background and goals or were they full of people looking to become investment bankers or whatever?

    I think it might be a good next step for my career, but I’m more of an artsy person and am afraid I would hate it.

    1. Golden Lioness*

      It was hard, because it’s an advanced degree and the classes were not easy, but I loved mine, but I love learning and have several degrees.

    2. Somniloquist*

      Mine wasn’t cutthroat, but it was difficult and my first year was so busy I wasn’t sure if I had time to breathe!

      I’m a bit of a right brained person, and while my program was chock full of people looking to be bankers and engineers who wanted to do supply chain and marketing, there were others like me. As it turns out, they need people like that to diversify business perspectives and I ended up getting one of the better grades in accounting due to familiarity with foreign languages.

      I would encourage you to apply if you think it would help your career.

    3. MBA*

      My experience was that there is variety but most people are looking to get into consulting and tech, both “big” tech (google, facebook, amazon) and tech startups. Banking was a very small number of people. That said, the different programs do have a different feel. I think an artsy person would do well at Stanford, Sloan, Yale, Tuck, Haas – the less buttoned-up programs. You don’t want to be hanging out at Wharton or HBS.

      And not cutthroat at all! No one cares about grades and people will walk out of a job interview and tell you what questions they received, and then do a mock interview with you.

  61. Dzhymm*

    Ask A Manager has become my new favorite time-sink… I’m really enjoying trawling through the archives. One undercurrent that I see is that a lot of letters are of the form: “There’s this Thing going on at work that I find really difficult to live with. Please help me work around this so I can tolerate my situation”. The underlying, unstated assumption is “I have to tolerate this situation because I need the job to keep a roof over my head”.

    What would happen to workplace dynamics if everyone had a basic income, independent of employment status, that was sufficient for survival? In other words, what would happen if every single worker at every level were empowered to say “Take This Job And Shove It” at any time?

    1. Hlyssande*

      I think it would be a mess at first, but employers would be forced to shape up to actually keep people around. I think it would have positive ramifications for employees, but business owners would have fits before getting used to the new status quo.

      If I’m not worried about losing the roof over my head, I’m not going to shut up and deal with a terrible work situation.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      I don’t have an answer to your question but tbh I think that’s why things like leaving a job without another lined up is a “red flag”–employers don’t like employees to not be totally dependent on them.

      2. Sadsack*

        I think the main reason employers don’t like that is because it may leave them in the lurch to fill your position. I am not sure it is because they want you to be totally dependent on them, though I know that there are some that are completely blindsided because they don’t understand how bad they suck. On the other hand, they may try to make their employees believe that they have no other options so they think they have no where to go.

      3. CMT*

        I’m sure there are some employers out there that operate this way, but I’m guessing it’s a very small amount. Not everybody is evil or out to get you all the time.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes. The only reason leaving without another job lined up is ever a red flag is because typically people don’t do it unless they were fired, or about to be fired, or there’s some other story there. If you have a different explanation, that’s going to satisfy most employers. It’s really not about wanting to keep you dependent.

          Most managers are normal people, not cartoon villains.

    3. Camellia*

      Interesting premise! Can you expand on it? Would you only receive this basic income if you were actively working? How would that translate into leaving one job before you had another? Because if not, then what would be the incentive to ever work, as long as you were satisfied with the basics (which I think we already have, in the form of Welfare, but that is another topic)? How would this be funded?

      As interesting as this sounds, I would be happy if we could just force all salaries and wages to be public knowledge. That would go a long way toward making companies straighten up and fly right!

      1. Dzhymm*

        Google around for “Basic Income”, but the idea is exactly the opposite of what you’re describing: it’s a basic stipend that everyone receives simply for living and breathing. There are no qualifications or stipulations. You get it whether you’re working or not (and the idea, in fact, is that if you’re NOT working you would still be able to survive). It would replace the entire crazy-quilt patchwork of assistance programs that we have today, and much more. There would be no minimum wage laws, no welfare, no unemployment assistance, no food stamps… all of that would be subsumed under the basic income. Oh and none of the vast bureaucracy that oversees these programs and administers the means testing required because our (American) society is so stingy with the meager alms it currently dispenses (pay no attention to your Uncle Bubba at Thanksgiving; one does NOT live high on the hog on “welfare” and qualifying is far harder than he thinks…)

        Yes, to some this sounds horrible and socialistic and un-American and more evil than a litterbug, but it’s something we need to think about. As automation climbs the economic food chain there will be fewer and fewer people needed to produce everything society needs. We already have automated factories that can be run by a handful of people. McDonald’s is experimenting with automated restaurants, driverless cars will eventually give way to driverless trucks that can deliver goods without human drivers, and there is even special software being used by large law firms that does preliminary case research that was formerly done by clerks and paralegals. In a world where we simply need fewer people to do what needs to be done, what do we do with the excess people? Do we let the owners of the machines reap all the economic benefits while the teeming masses starve? Do we create make-work for the teeming masses because of some Puritan notion that everone HAS to work in order to eat? Or do we figure out a way to distribute the wealth created by the machines in a more equitable manner? This question has been with us ever since the Industrial Revolution, but the pace and scale of innovation is going to start displacing workers faster than the economy can re-absorb them.

        1. Jennifer*

          I suspect the answer is going to boil down to “let the masses starve,” unfortunately. I don’t think our culture is sensible enough to implement something like this. Though it should.

          On the other hand, my work keeps being convinced that if we just automate enough things, we won’t have to hire staff. But they haven’t automated enough yet and we’re still sunk :P

    5. Kai*

      I’ve been thinking about this question a lot–I love it.

      This might sound dramatic, but I think it would wildly change the status quo of capitalism. A ton of businesses that don’t provide a super-necessary service and don’t treat their employees very well would have to either radically change the way they function, or go under. I mean, telemarketing firms would almost certainly become nonexistent.

      For businesses like food service, that are necessary/popular, you’d probably see servers, cooks, etc. start getting way better pay and benefits. You’d have to take really good care of your people just to keep a restaurant profitable.

      Overall, a lot of businesses would have to start prioritizing benefits and work culture elements to attract and retain people.

    6. Alton*

      I think it might actually help both sides in the long run. Obviously, a lot of people’s minds jump to really bad workplaces and the fact that they should be more invested in keeping their employees happy. But there can also be situations where it’s no one’s fault, really, but an employee just doesn’t feel empowered to leave a job that’s a poor fit because they need the money and benefits. In the long run, this isn’t ideal for the workplace, either.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure everyone would walk off a bad job. One reason is that we all have different definitions of what “bad” is.

      Rural people still would not have a selection of jobs to chose from, so if they want to work they may have to work at the Only Game In Town, no matter how they are treated.

      It could be that we would see an uptick in small business start ups, which brings about other questions and issues.

      Interesting puzzler, good question.

    1. Murphy*

      Ugh. I did that for a while and I hated it. (I also had Fridays off and worked a weekend day.) It was difficult to get stuff done in the morning, because I had to keep watching the clock. I tried to get up fairly early and use that time to get household chores done so I could relax when I got home. (The job was also physically demanding.) In the evening, I ended up eating dinner a little later than I really wanted to because I was getting home later, but then my husband and I would do things together like play board games or watch TV.

    2. LCL*

      Haven’t done that for years, but it was my favorite of all the shifts I worked.
      Get up at 8 or 9, read the paper, take the dogs out, have lunch, go to work, after work go on the prowl or stay home and write or watch Twilight Zone.
      Go to bed around midnight or 1.

    3. Alton*

      I really liked it. I’m a huge night owl, and it was nice being able to stay up until 1 AM without being dead tired the next day, and to not have to function super early.

    4. Agile Phalanges*

      When I had that schedule (10-6:30, actually), I LOVED it. But then I was childless and living in a location with pretty bad traffic. I just made my whole day later than “normal” people. So my alarm went off at 8, I had a leisurely hour and a half to get ready, pet the cats, surf the net, then get on the road by 9:30 and to work and clocked in by 10:00. When I got off work, sometimes my then-husband and I would meet up and go out for dinner, or else I’d go home and make dinner (he worked retail, and would either get off around the same time or even later). We’d be done with dinner right about the time prime time TV started (no streaming or TiVo in those days!), go to bed after the 11:00 shows ended, and start it all over. I can imagine it’d be a lot harder with kids especially, and annoying with a spouse who didn’t work similar hours, though.

  63. Not quite sure*

    Long time lurker, first time poster.

    I graduated from college this spring and got a job in my field starting in July. My dad and I used to carpool together because we both worked downtown. He retired last week so I have been taking the bus instead.

    I take two buses and each ride is about 15 minutes. I have to transfer once. On Wednesday I saw my bosses boss at the bus station. He recognized me and invited me to walk to the office with him. I told him I appreciated being asked but that walking would make me late. He told me not to worry about it and so I walked with him. I had met him once in passing before this and that’s it.

    That afternoon I was told that my pay was being docked for being late. I told my boss and he said there was no excuse. I went to see my bosses boss and he also said there was no excuse and that he is not responsible for managing my schedule. I was really confused. I got more confused because the next day when he saw me he invited me to walk with him again. I declined saying I would be late and I took the bus. Later that day I was called into a meeting with my boss, my bosses boss and his boss. I was given a 20 minute lecture on recognizing professional opportunities and snubbing my superiors. I mentioned being docked pay after walking and I was told to stop talking.

    I made an appointment with HR for this morning. I tried to avoid my bosses boss seeing me at the bus station but he saw me and asked me to walk like nothing happened. I told him I wasn’t sure what I should do because I had been admonished and penalized either way. He started screaming at me about my lack of professionalism to the point where the transit police intervened and escorted him off the property.

    Not long after I got to work this morning I was called into a meeting with HR and my bosses boss. I was reprimanded for my behaviour and suspended for a day without pay and was sent home. The reason was my hostile behavior towards my bosses boss and the disloyalty and lack of professionalism. They had security escort me off the property after the meeting.

    The company is well known enough that if I said the name the majority of American readers would know. I called head office to speak to the HR there but they just said I needed to work on my professionalism. I am honestly considering never going back and just leaving it off my resume and job hunting again. I don’t have any personal property there.

    I was thinking about writing in to Alison but I decided to post here. I’m not sure if I am handling this the right away or if I did misstep. My mom never worked and my dad worked the at the same company for 35 years so while I know they mean well I’m not sure there advice is solid. I would appreciate any insight that anyone has. Thanks.

    1. Hlyssande*

      Boss’s boss invites you to walk and says it’ll be fine and you won’t get in trouble…and you get docked for being late. So you decline to walk the next time and get ripped a new one for ‘snubbing’ him? Several times? And YOU’RE the one with the professionalism issue? Seriously?

      WTF. You’re not overreacting at all or oversensitive. They’re punishing you no matter which way you turn and that’s not okay.

    3. Jax*

      This is really terrible and I am sorry you are going through this. I don’t have much advice for you except start job hunting now. In the meantime, can you take an earlier bus in? That way if you happen to see the boss you can still walk but not be late, but hopefully you can avoid him all together?

    4. Jax*

      This is really terrible and I am sorry you are going through this. I don’t have much advice for you except start job hunting now. In the meantime, can you take an earlier bus in? That way if you happen to see the boss you can still walk but not be late, but hopefully you can avoid him all together?

    5. J*

      “I would love to walk with you, but I am meeting with someone this morning and don’t want to be rude.”

      Good grief, this sounds bananas.

    6. BuildMeUp*

      Wow. Wowww. The transit police had to escort him away??

      Do you know who you spoke with at the head office, and is there anyone else there you could get in touch with in the hopes that they’re a little more rational? If you have access to an employee directory and know who you spoke with originally, I would first try calling someone else directly.

      Can you take an earlier bus so you avoid running into boss’s boss at all? This will avoid the issue you’re currently having, but honestly if everyone there is totally fine with gaslighting you into believing you somehow did something wrong in this situation, there are going to be future problems.

      As far as quitting, I would really try to at minimum give 2 weeks notice. Obviously if you give notice and your boss/boss’s boss start getting abusive again, you should absolutely feel okay about leaving without serving your full notice period.

      If possible, I would try taking an earlier bus while starting an intensive job hunt, in the hopes that you can find something else quickly.

    7. BuildMeUp*

      Wow. Wowww. The transit police had to escort him away??

      Do you know who you spoke with at the head office, and is there anyone else there you could get in touch with in the hopes that they’re a little more rational? If you have access to an employee directory and know who you spoke with originally, I would first try calling someone else directly.

      Can you take an earlier bus so you avoid running into boss’s boss at all? This will avoid the issue you’re currently having, but honestly if everyone there is totally fine with gaslighting you into believing you somehow did something wrong in this situation, there are going to be future problems.

      As far as quitting, I would really try to at minimum give 2 weeks notice. Obviously if you give notice and your boss/boss’s boss start getting abusive again, you should absolutely feel okay about leaving without serving your full notice period.

      If possible, I would try taking an earlier bus while starting an intensive job hunt, in the hopes that you can find something else quickly.

    8. Murphy*

      Oh, wow. That is horrible! I’m so sorry they put you in such a tough spot and then continued to punish you for it.

      There’s nothing you can do if they’re going to make things impossible for you like they are. I wouldn’t leave without notice, but I would start looking for a new job ASAP.

    9. Not quite sure*

      Thanks everyone for the support and for helping me to see that I am not being over sensitive or unprofessional. The person I spoke to at head office was the manager of HR.

      Unfortunately I catch the first bus of the day to get to my transfer point so I cannot go earlier. My dad offered to drive me and pick me up every day but since he is retired and I am an adult I don’t think making him drive into the city is fair. There is no free parking near my work and even if there was I couldn’t take the car because my parents need would be without one all day. I have already started looking and have applied for one job.

      Thanks again everyone.

      1. fposte*

        Boss’s boss is a mean, mean man. He knows what he’s doing and he knows what position you’re being put in, and he either doesn’t care or likes it. I’m really sorry.

      2. Jiminy Crickets and Hot Dang*

        It might be best to take your dad up on the offer for rides to work, and then take the bus back home at night. This would help you avoid the stressful morning commute, and any possible further strife with your current employer, allowing you more breathing room and paid time to look for a new job.

        I think it’s less about being fair or being an adult, and more about letting the people who love you help you out of a terrible situation.

      3. Natalie*

        Take your dad’s offer, seriously. Your boss is a complete loon and it’s good to insulate yourself from it as much as possible until you can GTFO.

        Also, FWIW, if you are exempt both of those pay dockings sound illegal. If you care to, you could file a wage claim for the time, maybe once you’ve found a new job.

      4. Anna2*

        You should take your dad up on his offer, at least in the morning.

        Honestly, your bosses sound so crazy it makes me wonder if they all somehow have mercury poisoning. Bring your own water to work, just in case.

      5. AnAppleADay*

        Those “bosses” are mentally abusive and I don’t see this ever getting better for you. If you were to force yourself to stay it could possibly warp your sense of what’s healthy normal and what’s not healthy normal, in the workplace.

    11. Allison*

      Whaaat?

      Talk about being between a rock and a hard place, you can’t win in this situation. You get in trouble whether you walk with him or not, and all HR says is work on your professionalism. Did they offer any specifics? Did they tell you *how* to be more professional? This is a crappy situation, you might wanna start job hunting. Even if you pick an earlier bus, he’ll notice you’re no longer there when he is and might pick up on the fact you’re avoiding him.

    13. Alton*

      WTF???

      Even without the being docked for lateness issue, them penalizing you for declining an invitation to walk with this guy is wrong. You’re off the clock. You don’t have to be available for any “networking opportunity” that happens to come up.

      Anyway, this guy is weird. It sounds like some weird power trip thing. The fact that the transit police had to escort this guy away is a pretty good indication of who’s in the wrong here (and it’s not you).

      I have no idea what’s going through these people’s heads. Maybe the big boss was embarrassed when you initially got in trouble because it hadn’t occurred to him that you might and he felt like it made him look bad, and now he’s wildly overcompensating. Maybe these people are big bullies. Whatever the case, I hope you find something better soon.

        1. Cat steals keyboard*

          Sorry, only just spotted this. I guess to me it looked a bit like harassment or a hostile workplace or something?

    17. H.C.*

      I…. uh… wha?!

      Given your Scylla & Charybdis situation – I would continue taking the bus, since coming in late (even if at the “let’s walk” behest of your awful boss’ boss) is a more of a legitimate issue from your workplace’s standpoint – whereas you can reply that any perceived snubs outside of work with “what I do when I’m not clocked in is my own business” (well, maybe worded more gently). And needless to say, document the heck out of the whole situation in case of possible retaliations.

      But agreed with others that this is probably time to look for a new job (and I agree with you that if you quit now, you should probably just leave it off the resume given the short history.)

      1. pbnj*

        If it is a large company, you should have an ethics hotline. At our company the ethics group is outside of HR. Your company probably has a policy saying contacts to the ethics hotline made in good faith can’t result in retaliation.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would consider never going back, also. Only you know what load you can tolerate, OP.

      These things seemed to happen more when I was younger. Maybe he thinks he can get away with this nuts-stuff because you are young?

      I think what happened here is that security escorted him so he set you up to be escorted by security, too, in a get-even-with-you type of response. In my opinion, I don’t think you have to go back if you don’t want to.

      Do you think this guy might strike you if these blow ups continue? If yes, that would seal the deal for me, I would not go back.

      Please let us know how it goes for you.

  64. Anonon*

    Help! I’m a recruiter and have a former colleague who’s unexpectedly offered to pay me to help her rewrite her resume and come up with two versions. What do I charge? I’m on the phone with her right now.

  65. MacGirl*

    I managed to actually write a decent cover letter in just a day earlier this week. It usually takes me *forever* (by that I mean anywhere from three days to a week) because I am like to focus on the jobs that I apply for and make sure each application is well crafted. I was pretty impressed with myself! Working on another one now.

    Does anyone else take their time writing cover letters and are you ever happy with the result? I am starting to embrace a “get the darn thing done, because nothing is perfect” mantra.

    1. JLK in the ATX*

      Yes, I take about 3 days to write a letter. One day to research the company and get a feel for who they are. A day to write. A day to review and send. I appreciate the time I put into them and for me, a standard cover letter would be a waste of time and who I am, as a professional. Usually I’m happy with the results. I look at it this way, if I can’t write a good letter that speaks to my interest in the role or company, I don’t apply. I’m not a perfectionist, but I think the reader deserves a fair shake and opportunity from all applicants, because we expect the same from them.

  66. slick ric flair*

    Any other salespeople read AAM? What do you sell?

    I’m in data analytics and all the rapid changes in with automation and big data are rapidly changing the industry.

  67. Eddie Turr*

    Anyone have resources for proofreaders and copy editors? I often have open thread-type questions that are really specific to the type of work I do (especially the idea of having tons of smaller projects with very tight deadlines — sometimes I touch 18 projects in one day). I have a mentor at work, but I’d love to know where else to look for advice.

  68. Rena*

    Technical writers! My husband is a consultant/tech writer for a firm that contracts with Microsoft. He spends his days working on websites and wiki edits with very little actual writing. He’s looking for a change, but doesn’t know what kind of work is out there any more.

    If you’re a technical writer, can you tell us a little about your job? What kind of company do you work for and how much writing do you get to do?

    1. Tech Writer Here!*

      In my entry level position I don’t do extensive authoring. I take what technicians put together and rephrase it for clarity, make it consistent, make it correct and translate it into a more formal tone.

      That’s very much a simplified version of what I do though- I work with a very extensive standard that dictates exact how everything should read and look, and that makes what appears easy quite challenging at times.

      Even just making sure 400 page documents are as close to perfect as possible can be pretty difficult. It’s deeper than basic editing.

      It’s a lot of editing and communicating with the subject matter experts creating the content. I may read something and have to go over and say- this makes zero sense to me, please explain it.

      I know others who work with xml as part of their jobs but I don’t. As I said I have a entry level position.

      2. HeyNonnyNonny*

        I do almost the same stuff that Tech Writer does– I do also author things like brochures and web content that needs to communicate a technical topic, so a little bit of actual writing. I work for the government.

        …is it just me, or are there a super huge amount of tech writer questions lately?

      1. The Grammarian*

        I’m the one who asked that question. I really appreciated everyone’s answers to that post. It’s really helping me with my job search and with improving my outlook.

    3. Jen RO*

      I work for a software company. Most of the ‘writing’ I do is editing – I start with researching various materials put together by other departments (development, business analysts, QA), then I put that content into a form that makes sense and sounds like proper English. For me, this is perfect – I used to be a copy editor and loved it, and our software does something really complex that I could never document from scratch. I would say that my job is 60% research, 30% editing and 10% writing.

    4. Terra*

      Late to the party but I’m entry level but since I work at a small company I get to do a ton of writing. We don’t have a lot of documentation on our software and what we do have is almost unusable due to age/errors/etc. It’s not the best in money/benefits but if you can take a hit in those areas I would definitely recommend looking at smaller companies for more chances at actual writing.

  69. Hlyssande*

    I’ve just returned to the office after a surgical procedure on Tuesday to find that multiple people have been laid off due to the downturn in the oil industry driving the business down.

    They’re all in the project management group and it’s discombobulating. Not new people either – one of them I’ve worked with for at least 7 years!

    One was the PM for our database upgrade which has been pushed back yet another year (7 or 8 years and counting). One was the PM for a major project to fix issues and streamline our XML3 process between databases and other stuff.

    Blergh.

    1. Hlyssande*

      Soon to be former boss (who retires next week) came to tell me that the database upgrade hasn’t been pushed back after all. So that’s lovely.

      But I’m still discombobulated about the layoffs.

      Also, sore from the thing and would like to go home and cuddle my cat some more, please.

  70. Rejected Mentor*

    Hi, about a year ago I was so excited to be selected to be a mentor for the university student newspaper I worked at 25 years ago. After a screening process, the adviser sent me information about the woman I would be mentoring — a freshman — and that he would forward my email to her. He did not offer the student’s email, which I took to be deliberate (I’m a woman, I wouldn’t have wanted my email given out). And then … she never emailed me.

    I asked my coworkers way at the time whether I should alert the adviser that the student had never made contact (not to force her to contact me, but because I would love to be able to help someone who wants my help). They suggested to shrug it off.

    I’m so disappointed. I’ve seen some of her work, she writes about women’s issues, she clearly has no clue that I was a feminist activist both in the student newsroom, then statewide, then nationwide before I went into a more traditional career at a trade publication. Do I just … not let the adviser know I’m still available for someone else? What do I do if, in her senior year, she finally decides she wants to make contact and emails me one month before she graduates?

    1. Stressed 30-something*

      Honestly, I wouldn’t read much into it. Having been on both sides of pre-arranged college mentorships — this is really common and doesn’t say anything about you. I think these sort of forced, non-organic mentoring programs are well-intended but rarely pan out they way they’re supposed to.

    2. Eddie Turr*

      I went to journalism school and had a mentor assigned to me for several semesters before we actually met. He was a professor within the j-school, though it sounds like you work at a separate organization, so I’m sure that’s a bit different. At some point, I think the school either required me to meet with him once or he reached out to all of his mentees to proactively schedule meetings — I forget which. And he turned out to be a great mentor that I scheduled many meetings and conversations with in the future.

      I think you should reach out to the adviser and ask what course of action makes sense. If this student’s work is published in the student newspaper, her contact info is probably easy to track down (when I was in school, our email addresses were under the bylines), so I don’t think it would be an overstep to reach out to this student. But the adviser is the best person to tell you what would or wouldn’t be weird in this situation, I think.

    3. Temperance*

      She won’t.

      I would do nothing.

      In the “Temperance is a Jerk” file, I requested to mentor a young woman with my background, and was given someone with a drastically different background. I chose to enter the program so I could be a resource to other young women who grew up in poverty and didn’t have educated family, and from a rural area. Long story short, they gave me someone who didn’t fit that description, and who was a huge ahole (when I googled her). She has a public blog with her name on it, and she wrote many posts defending Bill Cosby. I’m a feminist and not a fan of rapists and dumbasses who support rapists, so I declined to work with her. She never reached out to me, nor did I reach out to her.

      1. Rejected Mentor*

        I provided the adviser with only my “non-activist” credentials. I have this feeling the ONLY reason she would contact me in the future is if she somehow puts it together (but I think you’re right, she won’t bother).

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You should let the advisor know. They put time into a screening and selection process; they probably want to know that their students aren’t following through.

    6. Inspector Spacetime*

      I just want to put out there that if my college program gave me some strangers’ email address and told me to cold-email her to ask her to be my mentor there is NO WAY I would have done it. I would have been convinced that I would be bothering her and annoying her. I do have social anxiety, though, so perhaps that’s not a normal response, but I think this could be the case for any shy/introverted person. And remember, she’s a freshman! She’s probably, what, eighteen? I’m just saying, don’t feel “rejected” or take this personally. It’s likely that she considers herself not good enough for your time instead of the other way around.

  71. Stressed 30-something*

    I’m burning out and feel completely lost on how to recover. I work in higher ed, and we’re constantly being asked to do more with less. My boss flat-out admits that I’ve absorbed more work over the past few years than anyone else on our team. Our team is not really allowed to say no to anything, unfortunately. And I’m just fed up and sick of it because there’s no end in sight. Worse yet, I’m getting a new direct supervisor in 2 weeks and am concerned that I’m going to make a terrible impression because I just have nothing left to give.

    Fall is my husband’s busy season at work, too. He’s away several nights during the week and works a big chunk of the weekends, which leaves me to pick up the slack at home and do lots of solo parenting with our very young kids. I am exhausted and go to bed around 9-9:30 every night. I feel decent during the day, but my batteries are drained by the time my kids get to bed and I do just enough around the house to keep things from getting too chaotic.

    I’ve told both my boss and my husband that I’m reaching a breaking point and can’t just keep absorbing more responsibilities. I get sympathy, but no real efforts to try to move things off my plate — because there’s nobody to move them to! I’m starting to get bitter, and even a little depressed. Is this just what life is like at this stage?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Also in higher ed. So many of my coworkers have quit and the rest are left to pick up the pieces. I am pulling 12-hour days two or three days a week, and I will have to work for several hours a couple of Saturdays this month as well.

      If you can, perhaps approach your new supervisor with a fresh mindset, and when you met with him/her, talk candidly about your exhaustion and how it’s unsustainable. His/her reaction will tell you a lot about whether or not you might want to consider moving on to something else.

    2. Jennifer*

      I could have written this except for the husband and kids bit. There really isn’t anything you can do if they absolutely refuse to hire anyone to help you with your workload (and if you can’t find another job). I can’t say no either, I’m tired of all the drama and the no’s (new supervisor is promising, but we’ll see how many mountains he can move with other people), and the avalanche of workload. You should see the pile that 16 people have put on me this week alone and I can’t get anyone else (except for one person part time for a few days) to help with.

    3. Panda Bandit*

      You don’t have to stay on this path. It will only lead to burnout and misery. Talk to your new supervisor about your workload. If they don’t do anything to help then your best option is to look for another job.

      If your husband can’t take on more tasks because of his job, could you hire someone temporarily for cooking, cleaning, or babysitting? Having help for even one day a week can still take a sizable burden off your shoulders.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I ended up really sick in my 30s because of all the demands on my time. I agree with playing two ends against the middle and see if you can find a way to lighten your load. This means chatting with your husband and your boss.

        I also vote for simplifying where ever possible. Take a look at all the different tasks in your life and one-by-one find ways to make them easier or eliminate them entirely.

  72. overeducated*

    I’ve been waiting for open thread since Wednesday! Finally!

    I’m feeling really frustrated with my new job, a month in, in a way that I know is familiar to some other posters and letter writers here. Basically, it’s been a month, I just don’t have enough to do, and I can’t even get started on mapping out the institutional processes I am supposed to improve because of the institutional politics in my large and hierarchical organization.

    Part of the issue is that I can’t even start talking to people in the other divisions I need to collaborate with because apparently introductory meetings have to go through a whole chain of command as organized by my boss, but he and they are too busy to actually organize those meetings. At this point, I’m supposed to go to a major meeting for everyone in the region in 2 weeks, after which I should be allowed to talk to people in that division, but what am I supposed to do for 2 weeks beforehand? (I have two little projects, but they’ve both been stalled for over a week because they’re on my busy boss’s desk for approval and revisions.) And it sounds like my boss wants to be part of a particular set of meetings I need to schedule to collect specific information for planning, which is his prerogative, but a) with his schedule that means these meetings could take a year when I could do them in a month, and b) he says “oh then we could also talk about this other project I’m doing,” and I’m concerned that if they become meetings about that I will not be able to collect said specific information, and thus not able to plan.

    The other part is that all the stuff I thought would be part of my job…kind of seems like it is always somebody else’s job. Like one of the things I was hired to do was “start pilot projects doing X,” but whenever we talk about ideas, the response is something like “that’s under office Y [which I am not allowed to formally talk with yet, see above],” or “we can’t do that because we don’t have money for someone else to do it for EVERY project when Overeducated’s term is up in 2 years” or even “oh, great idea, I wonder if we could get funding for an intern to do that next year.” Hi! I’m not doing ANYTHING! I know I am still learning and can’t push for things when I don’t know the full organizational landscape, especially when part of my job is improving processes across divisions in the org. And I guess my boss sees me as still in a training position, which I am. But it’s frustrating to be warming a chair for 42.5 hours a week just waiting for introductions, or making suggestions that get immediately assigned to someone else, because this was not presented as an assistant-type job.

    The other issues are that my position is funded for a term and I need to build my resume toward the likelihood of it not turning permanent, and I have a 45 day performance review and professional development plan due in 2 weeks. I feel like my performance review can’t say anything because I’m not doing anything. Should I talk to my boss about needing more to do, or is it too early and that would be too impatient?

  73. Anon Geek with Resigning Boss*

    Re-using a different handle for this one. I need a reality check. Am I being overly needy, or is my new boss is just disengaged from me (and probably his other employees)?

    After my former boss resigned early this summer, I’ve been reassigned to a new boss who works out of one of the main offices. He’s located a couple of hours away, so no opportunities exist for any water cooler/hallway check-ins. He has direct reports spread across the US, so I’m definitely not his first or only long-distance employee.

    I’m in a technical consultant role — I don’t supervise anyone else, but I have a fairly advanced skillset. I’m used to working fairly independently (I manage my own time, as long as I’m available whenever the client needs me and I log ~40 hours/week in my timesheet. A project manager and I work with the client to drive revenue based on the client’s needs). But I have a ridiculous workload (think: we really need 3 people covering the workload that I’m handling alone), and my boss is supposed to be finding me backup/support.

    New boss has not scheduled a standing one-on-one/check-in with me. He literally went a month without emailing or calling me at all, until I initiated contact (I…was trying to see how long it would take before he engaged with me and finally gave up). On his calendar, I don’t see re-occurring meetings with his other long-distance direct reports (or at least, they’re not labeled as such in his calendar).

    Is it typical to talk to your boss so rarely, or is he an unusually hands-off boss? I don’t like this at all, but I don’t know if I’m expecting too much.

    Thanks!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      A month of no contact is highly unusual, but perhaps your new boss doesn’t know how to deal with someone in your role, especially since you’re so far apart. Perhaps you can reach out to him and say “Phil, I know I do my best work when I’m clear about expectations and the current state of things with you. Let’s schedule a biweekly check-in phone call. When is best for you?”

      That’s where you can talk about what you need from him, and get a sense of what he needs from you. I think it would be helpful for you both!

    2. DoDah*

      My VP manages a national team and it is a standing joke among all of us how he strikes the perfect balance between “unavailable” and “bottleneck”.

      I don’t think you are asking too much of any good manager, but you might be expecting too much of your current manager.

  74. Anon for this!*

    One of my toxic coworkers last day is today. There was a farewell party for the coworker, during lunch time, that I did not go to. I just couldn’t force myself to be fake. I feel unprofessional and petty, but I just couldn’t bring myself to go.

    1. Fabulous*

      Don’t feel bad about not going! I’d be doing a happy-dance at my desk if I were in your shoes. Now go get some cake from the party!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      You shouldn’t feel bad at all! When my toxic work partner left, they took her to lunch and I politely declined because my dietary restrictions prevented me from safely consuming anything at that particular restaurant. I was SO glad to have that excuse! And I later heard that it was an incredibly awkward lunch, because she didn’t like anybody and very few people liked her… so yeah, not sorry that I didn’t go.

      Things will feel so much better come Monday!

    3. Drew*

      I am very glad that farewell parties are not a typical thing at my workplace. Sometimes people close to a departing employee will organize a happy hour or “let’s go to my place and order pizza and throw on a movie,” but it’s always low-key and if you can’t make it, that’s the way it is. And some people just softly, silently vanish away.

  75. Lilly*

    So, I learned coding to optimize this report at work and it saved me close to 7 hours. But, manager still kept repeating to external people that it still took 15 h.

    Why? Politics. There is an internal reporting system that they are selling to client and we are migrating to it. I am migrating it and it is fucking nightmare. It is slow to create and causing me many headaches. Manager is like that the new system is not supposed to make my job easier. All of it is politics as we need to prove clients we are as good as consulting companies…
    And, I don’t think I can do anything to fix potential issues as all I can do is connect with product team …..And, client is notoriously demanding.

    I am so fucking tired of their pretended optimism all of which is due to politics. Of unreasonable demands and them not understanding what the system is vs. what the sales pitch wa….

    This whole issue makes me so mad. Any thoughts on how to deal with your being sidelined due to internal politics..

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The only thing you can do is make sure your work is done up to what they have last told you their expectations are.

      Sometimes when my back has been against a wall, I have gone to the boss and said, “We have a, b and c going on. If this continues we will have problems d, e and f. I want to go on record as saying this now.”
      Maybe it’s in the formality of saying, “I want to go on record as saying this now” that rattles their cage a bit. But I have had some luck getting some bad situations turned around by expressing things in this manner.

      Alison talks about your capital at work, if you know that you have NO capital do not do this. If you know that you have some credibility, the boss likes your work, etc., then you might be able to gain some ground.

  76. J.B.*

    Unfortunately I really can’t get into specifics because it would be much too identifiable…but sometimes it is really really fun to be a govt worker bee while the politicians run around like headless chickens. Really, if we had the ability to write/update regulations as they need to be, we would do them better. But with no ability to change stuff, at least you get a front row seat for the circus.

    1. fiddling while Rome burns*

      Oh, it’s so “fun”. Most non-gov people missed the whole CR (federal budget) story because it was buried under more click-bait-friendly news. However, many of us people who work for the government have been trying to figure out if we’d have a forced, unpaid vacation or not for October, thanks to pointless Congressional brinkmanship.

      Thanks to the timing of when they finally passed the CR, the government will officially be funded without interruption. However, in reality, a substantial amount of money doesn’t move in a day; so my department is severely under-funded for at least October, maybe November. I will probably be forced to use several of my paid vacation days, as will many in my department, to cover this.

      What do I do, that my department is being sent out for forced vacation in October, you ask? Oh, nothing too important, really – just monitoring for nuclear incidents. Y’know, nothing too bad can go wrong with Congress putting us all out for a month, if we miss an incident I’m sure the US voters will be very understanding about the funding issue.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      Oh, and the hiring freeze that mandated every hire down to the RMV front desk employees had to be personally approved by the governor? Super fun!

  77. Applesauced*

    I’m going to complain about a good thing….
    Our office is moving today/this weekend, so we need to be out of our current space by 2 pm. My work group is doing a little social event since we’re getting out early. My complaints are this – we aren’t getting paid for move time, we had to make up the 4 hours during the week. And the social event doesn’t start when we leave, we were told to eat first (on our own) then meet at the bar at 3.
    I know these are silly things to complain about, but it’s kind of annoying… like the you’re doing a nice thing, but making it inconvenient. Erg. Dumb complaints, but I’m annoyed.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      My complaints are this – we aren’t getting paid for move time, we had to make up the 4 hours during the week.

      God, that’s so petty on their part.

  78. Wendy Darling*

    Not doing it yet, but someone give me a script for quitting a horrible toxic job with nothing else lined up? Since it is a horrible toxic job I anticipate my boss freaking out. I also anticipate giving two weeks’ notice and being fired on the spot because I’ve seen it happen to others, so I will be clearing off my computer before attempting.

    2. edj3*

      Here’s what I said:

      It’s become clear to me that my future isn’t with (company name). So I’m giving my two week notice, and my last day will be (date).

      (and when people asked where I was going, I told them the truth–I don’t know yet)

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      This happened to me– company policy dictated that I was immediately shown the door.

      I simply wrote “In order to pursue other opportunities, I am resigning from XXX position at XXX company. My last day will be XXX date.”

      And if they kick you out right away, look into unemployment– you might be eligible for it. Good luck!

    4. CAA*

      The script would be the same if the job is not toxic and if you did have something else lined up. Go see your manager in person and say very calmly and matter-of-factly “I’ve decided to leave company x to pursue other opportunities, so I am resigning. I would like my last day to be October 15.” Then stop talking.

      If toxic boss asks where you’re going, then the answer is “I’d prefer not to share that right now.”

      If toxic boss says he needs it in writing, then you say “I’ll be glad to send you an email that you can forward to HR.” The email just says the exact same words as above.

      1. CAA*

        Oh and as Lemon Zinger says, if they walk you out the door and do not pay you for the 2-week notice period, you would be eligible for unemployment in many (if not all) states. My state also has a 1-week waiting period, so you could only collect for the second week.

    5. Pwyll*

      Yup, you don’t owe any explanation. I agree with the others. If the bosses push about where you’re going, you can simply say, “I’m considering a few opportunities at the moment, but my final day will be x.”

      Because you are considering multiple opportunities. One is the opportunity to sleep in while unemployed, and the opportunity to not be working here!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You don’t have to explain why.
      “I am resigning my position, my last day will be [two weeks from today].”

      You might find it easier to do it in writing, then you can just hand the boss the letter and say nothing unless he asks.

      I do it the same way for jobs that I like or dislike.

      “I am resigning my position. My last day will be _______. Thank you for the opportunities you have given me here.” That’s it. That is all I write.

  79. Newlywed*

    I work with several women, a handful of them in their early to mid twenties, who regularly refer to their other female colleagues (me included) as “babe” and “love” etc. For the record, I am in my late twenties. I had to finally tell one of them that I prefer to go by my given name and not nicknames. When I discussed it with the person’s manager, the manager said that she didn’t see it as an issue but by all means to handle it that way if I didn’t like it. Is it just me? I feel like allowing them to continue that way is a disservice to them, because it is an unprofessional way to address a colleague, even one you get along well with, and they need to know that’s not a professional norm!

    1. College Career Counselor*

      You’re not BFFs, roommates/romantic partners, and you’re not in high school. Maybe the manager just thinks of it as a version of “dude” (which I think of and use as a non-gendered term, although I realize not everyone does), but those terms strike me as being more like terms of endearment for people who are intimate with each other. (I would NEVER refer to anyone I worked with as “sweetie,” for example.) I’m commenting from a U.S-culture perspective, however, so maybe others have a different take.

      TL;DR: Ultimately, you get to say how they should refer to you, but unless you manage them, I don’t think you have any particular standing correct their phrasing with each other.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Ugh, that’s gross. By all means, continue to ask to be addressed by your name, and go to HR if it doesn’t stop. That kind of language is demeaning and disrespectful.

    4. Inspector Spacetime*

      I’m in my early twenties and I would never do that. I also don’t know of any female friends who would use those words, even for friends, much less coworkers. I’m very confused. Is this a regional/cultural thing, like how people in the South call people by pet names?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        You do see it in some places. I think it’s less than it used to be. My guess is that it’s not regional, it’s just the culture of the particular biz.

  80. Dave*

    No news. I emailed the HR person I interviewed with for the one job on Mo day to see if I could get an updated timeline but have not received a reply. Finally on Thursday I emailed a guy I know in the department to see if I should assume that they had gone in another direction. He said not as far as he knows, but that they just finished first round interviews not long ago and that I had been recommended for a second interview. So that’s good.

    No word back from the other good interview yet either. They had said early this week, but the managers’ timeline and HR’s may not line up. Hopefully, anyway. I don’t mind them taking a bit longer because the first job was my top choice, and if there is a second interview I wouldn’t mind the timelines being close to one another.

    1. AshK434*

      I hate when HR people don’t respond to emails especially when they promise me they’ll get back to me in a certain timeframe. So frustrating!

      I’m keeping my fingers crossed that something pans out for you.

  81. Q*

    Good news! My sister got a job! It has paid training! At $5 an hour! Wait, what? Shouldn’t the training be at least minimum wage? We are in Pennsylvania and the job is not in food service.

  82. LiteralGirl*

    I’ve been at my new job within the same company for three months, and stopped in to my old office for about 3 minutes to say hi to one person with whom I’m friends. My old boss walked by me, nodded and kind of waved. I thought that was strange, but since he didn’t even get up and shake my hand when I left on my last day, I didn’t think too much of it. I was in their building for a “fair” of sorts. My current team had a display along with several other teams within our company. Old boss and my replacement showed up to the event but didn’t approach our table at all. Strange, but maybe they didn’t have time.
    The kicker is that the next day he sent an email asking for help with one of my old processes and began it with “It was great to see you at [event] yesterday.” Is it strange to say something like this when you don’t even talk to someone? I must admit I replied with a somewhat snarky “you should have stopped by our table to say hi.”
    He was my boss for about 9 months, and I gave plenty of notice (4 weeks) when I left. I thought he had social skills, but I’m beginning to have my doubts… Maybe I should have just excused myself from my table and approached him.

    1. fposte*

      Was this a huge contrast to your manner when you worked for him? Because in isolation this doesn’t seem like a problem. He nodded and waved when you were over there (and you still work for the company and you only left the position recently, so that would be a pretty low-key deal to me as a boss) and didn’t end up talking to you at an event. The “great to see you” thing is pretty funny, I admit (though I don’t think your response reads as snarky), but absent other information I’d suspect he’s just not a gregarious guy and he’s not great with faces and/or names, so maybe somebody said later “You know that was LiteralGirl at the table, right?” I don’t think this even rises to the level of poor social skills–these are occasions where big greetings would be optional anyway.

      Is there something else about your relationship with him or your old department that’s worrying you? If not, I’d shrug this off.

      1. LiteralGirl*

        Thanks for your perspective fposte! I guess I feel this way because he was always pretty friendly when I worked for him, and it’s kind of a departure from how he treated me before. When I see others from my former department (even his boss), they’re always friendly and stop to chat. You’re right, though, grousing and feeling offended will get me nowhere and I should just shrug it off!

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      Maybe he was just busy and couldn’t stop to chat? I wouldn’t read into this too much or take it personally.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Definitely don’t take it personally. I have noticed that some people drift away once I leave a job or they leave our workplace. Other times the connection that was once solid feels choppy.

        My rule of thumb is if I think warmly of a person or admire them as professionals I will just continue to do so no matter how warm/distant they act toward me. We don’t know what it is we don’t know. I think of my coworker who seemed a little off one day. Later I found out he hit a dog on his way to work. The child who “owned” the dog saw him do it. It was a total accident and he was really rattled by it. We just don’t know what kind of day a person is having. You boss said it was great to see you. I would take that as “Gee, I wish we could have chatted a minute, because I still think highly of you.” And just let the rest go.

  83. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

    Question for the fellow HR types here:

    In regards to the new FLSA threshold about to take effect in December, how are you handling part time staff in traditionally exempt roles? I’m specifically thinking about people who go part time temporarily for personal or health related reasons for a role that would otherwise be full time. Assuming there are otherwise no organizational or management issues associated with a move to part time, are you:

    1. Converting their position from exempt to non-exempt and having them track their hours via timesheet (or timeclock, depending on your organization), and only paying them for hours worked.
    2. Keeping them exempt but only allowing them to go part time so their rate of pay will not slip below the threshold. (So, for example, if you make $50,000/year the most “part time” you could go is 95%; if you make $80,000, you could go down to 60%; etc.)

    I’ve heard of places doing both, and I’m just curious as to what people’s thoughts are in regards to the pros and cons of either choice.

    1. Jadelyn*

      We’d go with option 1 – convert them to non-exempt and pay hourly until they returned to full-time status. That’s what we’ll be doing with an upcoming seasonal position, where the employee works part-time in November and December, then works full-time January through May.

      Option 2 sounds kind of convoluted and not particularly fair – there’s not a lot of flexibility in that for people who are exempt but close to the threshold. I think the first option provides a lot more flexibility to accommodate employees’ life circumstances as needed.

    2. CAA*

      I’m not in HR, but my company is also doing option 1. We all track hours anyway since we bill our time to the government, so we already have a time keeping system in place. Some benefits and their costs also change if you go to part-time.

  84. asteramella*

    I want to ask my skip-level boss for a letter of recommendation for grad school. My job is more germane to the graduate program I’m applying to than my undergrad degree was (applying to a public health program, currently working in health insurance, unrelated humanities degree). My grandboss is an attorney and can directly speak to my understanding of insurance-related laws and regulations and the industry as a whole. We have a relatively close working relationship as she is the head of my very small department.

    The problem is that I feel like I’m essentially giving a year’s notice. :S I am applying now for matriculation in the fall 2017 semester. The program would not prepare me for any job within this company; I am actively looking to change industries and do not want to follow a career path in insurance. My grandboss has voiced her hope that I will leave her department for a promotion within another area of the company several times in the past year (my small department does not offer any promotion opportunity). But I want to leave the industry altogether, I am looking to go to this grad program full-time, and my company doesn’t offer part-time work so I’d need to leave to do that. Even if I don’t get in to the grad program, I’m still planning to leave the company within a year.

    Do I need to address this directly when asking for a recommendation letter? I would be honest that I think it’s time for me to move on if asked directly but I’m not sure how much context I should give when presenting this request for a recommendation letter.

    1. Alice*

      I get that _your_ path will definitely not be in the insurance industry, but is that obvious from the grad school program you’re going in to? If your public health program offers a health economics or health policy focus (potentially relevant in the insurance industry), you could allow people in your company to assume that you are open to that direction.
      I’m not suggesting that you lie, but it’s ok to say, “I’m not sure what I’m going to write my thesis on; health economics is one of the strengths of the department.”

  85. Anonycat*

    I’m starting a new job in 10 days. I’m so super excited because i’ll have a very short commute…from 45 minutes to less than 5 minutes. Good company, stable. A raise! All around it’s almost too perfect. I work in HR. My anxiety is creeping up about doing payroll again, something I haven’t done in a couple years, and now it will be for a bigger company. I’m terrified I’m going to mess up. Someone please hold my hand and tell me it will be ok!

    2. Golden Lioness*

      You are only worrying because you’re a good worker that wants to do a good job. I’m sure you’ll do well. Good luck!

  86. Tomato Frog*

    Recommendations for a basic, readable book on project management?

    Project management is not officially something I do at my job, but lately I’ve been planning some minor, two-person projects and I think I sort of love it. I’d like a firmer grasp on the principles, especially since I hope to be in charge of bigger projects in the future.

  87. LavaLamp*

    I feel like a butt. I was rather abrupt with my coworker yesterday because I’ve been extremely stressed and they came up to me at the communal printer; to tell me the family member I care for should go be a guinea pig in paid medical trials for his ‘back pain’.

    I was quite abrupt explaining that Ankylosing Spondylitis is not just back pain and basically paid medical trials aren’t a good fit for my situation; although I thanked her for her offer. I just feel I was too abrupt and I’m not sure if I should shoot them an email apologizing for that or if that would be too much or what.

    I feel more off about it than I normally would because I’ve been extremely exhausted due to my own chronic illness.

    1. Manders*

      You’re not a butt at all! I’m going through a similar thing with people trying to “help” with treatment suggestions for a family member’s untreatable illness, and some days, I think I deserve credit for not responding with a punch in the kisser.

      Many people have this primal fear of medical conditions that happen through no fault of the victim, especially when they can’t be cured or prevented. It’s very scary to live in a world where you can do everything “right” and still end up disabled, and some people respond to that fear by refusing to believe that an illness can’t be cured.

    2. Alice*

      My two cents — find this coworker and tell her you’re sorry you were short with her. After all, is there a downside?

      -> If (big if!) she is upset with you, she’ll feel better and so will you.
      -> If (as I think more likely from your description) she’s already forgotten it, she’ll accept your apology and you will feel better.

      Good luck for your family member.

    3. Kai*

      Eh, I don’t blame you. Your coworker’s suggestion sounds like it was pretty out of touch. But if it’s still bothering you, it wouldn’t hurt anything to apologize (though I would say it casually, in person–sending an email does feel a bit over the top).

      1. Mazzy*

        I don’t blame them either. I had a bit of a rant once at work when a few people were wasting my time with “helpful” suggestions like this. It was alot the gist of “life is to short to do everything and to sit and talk about every possible option of everything when I have work to do.” Sounded ruder than it actually was

    4. ZVA*

      I’ve been on your coworker’s side of this recently—my boss basically snapped at me, and came up to me later that day, apologized, and said he’d been angry with someone else at the time… It was a small thing, but I really appreciated the gesture from him. I suggest you say something brief like “I’m I was abrupt with you yesterday; this situation has really been stressing me out” or however you want to put it. Your coworker will appreciate if they remember, and no harm done if they don’t!

    5. TG*

      You’re not a butt. I only told one person in my office about my child’s illness because I was afraid of how not nice I might be if people started giving me “helpful” suggestions about his care.

  89. Sophie*

    Oh my, this sounds awful – talk about mixed signals! I don’t think you have mis-stepped at all, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place here.

    I really don’t have any constructive advice other than ‘surely this is illegal’

  90. eleven*

    Have you come out as transgender at work? If yes, what has been the biggest challenge? Who have been your strongest allies? What things took you by surprise, or didn’t happen the way you anticipated?

    Going to be facing this, soon.

    1. Jordan*

      +1 I too am interested in responses. Coming out at work is my biggest concern if I decide to transition. I’m too distant physically and relationship-wise from family to care aside from my parents, and I know my friends are/would be supportive. But work??

      1. eleven*

        Do you work in a big department? Mine is small – but I’m less worried about my direct coworkers than the greater organization – like HR, and departments I work with occasionally. I feel *mostly* safe with my direct coworkers.

        1. Jordan*

          Small department, but lots of contact with others via email. That has a photo of everyone included. :( I’ve heard some transphobic statements from two of my co-workers, but I have no idea what that reaction to me would be.

          I also checked our handbook and found gender identity isn’t listed as protected so… I assume they wouldn’t discriminate. Maybe it’s never come up? Company is still fairly small.

  91. Alice*

    I don’t actually need advice right now, because — faced with a frustrating situation this week — I asked myself what the commenters here would suggest, and then did that!

    The details — a manager in a different department said in a big meeting that he wishes people would bring his team in on projects earlier, because “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!”
    I didn’t appreciate that he was staring straight at me, but hey, the guy has to look somewhere, right? (AAM lesson #1 — don’t assume the worst interpretation) And maybe we’re not bringing them in at the right time, or maybe we’re not passing over the right information.
    So I asked my counterpart on his team if she wants to talk about referrals and handovers. (AAM lesson #2 — communicate!) She said “you and your boss know how you want to handle this,” and although I’d rather have confirmation that she’s happy with the status qho, at least she knows that I’m willing to talk about any changes she’d like to see. (AAM lesson #3 — define success in terms of my actions/feelings, not those of my colleagues, whom I can’t control).

    So thanks, everyone, for giving so much good advice and examples that I’ve successfully internalized it.

  92. Temperance*

    So work blood drives … I hate them.

    I received 6 emails (3 personal directed to me) and a follow-up phone call, harassing me about donating blood. Should I let the office manager know about the badgering? I’m worried that the dumbass who kept badgering me might do it to someone who is closeted.

    I don’t donate anymore because of the culture of homophobia and outing related to the practice and “blood bullies”, and also because last time, it was incredibly awful and traumatic (the staff kept digging the needle in my arm, and the flow was so slow that I watched two groups of people leave while I was still stuck there).

    1. Q*

      Can you tell them you have a medical reason you cannot donate and please stop asking me? I had to do that. My blood does not like to leave my body and so I cannot fill up a bag. If I can’t fill the bag, they can’t use it. It ends up being a big waste of time for all involved so I don’t even try anymore.

    2. Random Lurker*

      I find that telling the little white lie that I was in the UK during the mad cow years has gotten me off the hassle list. Doesn’t really help your fellow coworkers though.

    3. PK*

      The blood drive emails are particularly annoying to me as well. I’m a gay man and it’s an instant reminder how I’m assumed to be diseased. I think that you should ignore the blanket emails to everyone the best you can. However, I think any addressed specifically to you can be answered with a “I don’t participate in blood drives due to personal reasons.” and let it go. It’s annoying for sure. I think you can stop the direct contact about it but I think you’ll have to tolerate the blanket contact across the board.

      1. Temperance*

        That’s a large part of the reason for my annoyance. I’m straight, but many of my loved ones are gay/bi, and frankly, I feel like it’s my responsibility to fight this sort of thing because as a straight woman, I can without putting myself in danger.

        I can deal with the blanket contact, but as you have seen … people are downright assy about donating blood. (I’ve never forgotten the dbag at my last job who had a needle phobia so he felt it was his “duty” to accost every single person and demand to know whether they were donating, and if not, give him a reason.)

    4. fposte*

      I usually would stand on the truth, but I’m with Q in seeing this as a time for a falsehood if you’re feeling it. I lived in Britain for a year in the Mad Cow Times and am excluded because of that–feel free to borrow my experience if you like, since that’s a nice non-health-related reason.

      1. Anon 2*

        Yep. I can’t donate for that reason as well. I lived in the UK for more than six months before 1996, so I’m not allowed to give blood.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      The people who run them at my office don’t harass you about it, but there is an incentive to donate (a small free gift for donating once, an extra PTO day for donating X times). This pisses me off, because it’s a benefit that my gay colleagues (not to mention those with medical issues that would preclude donation) can’t take advantage of.

      I haven’t given in years, partly because I have philosophical issues with how the system works. OTOH, I’ve had family members in the hospital in the last few years who’ve needed transfusions. So I feel a bit guilty for not doing what I can. :(

      1. Temperance*

        I think the free PTO is really freaking unfair. The incentives we offer are small trinkets, more or less (like a free bag of Dunkin Donuts), but I do agree that it stinks and is discriminatory.

        I gave last September because I’m o+ and I know how in demand my type is, and it was such a terrible experience and I felt so damn guilty about doing so that I haven’t since. I just can’t support the system when it is needlessly discriminatory, and I absolutely can’t contribute to homophobia at work. (Or anywhere, I guess.)

      2. AliceBD*

        That’s awful! I was always offered a free tshirt or crappy lunchbox or something else cheap and fairly useless that I would decline. And people shouldn’t be harassing you, period, but especially about something there are lots of reasons you can not give. And I agree 100% that the rules about non-straight people donating are stupid — there’s no need anymore! You can test for stuff! Other countries don’t have that restriction!

        I LOVE LOVE LOVE donating blood, and did it all of college. I think it is fun to participate in and watch while it happens, even if they have to stick me a bunch of times and wiggle it around, and I’m O+ so I know they want my blood. But my body hates it, and protests, and I am medically not allowed to do it anymore — both by my doctors and probably by blood services, who paid my ER bill the last time I donated and then had a medical emergency. I look healthy and I’m young, so people ask me if I’m going to do it, and I hate having to tell them no.

    6. Not Karen*

      You don’t have to bring homophobia into it. There are a number of philosophical, religious, and/or personal reasons why someone might not be able to or interested in donating blood. For instance I’m terrified of needles and I would feel equally harassed about being repeatedly asked to donate.

      1. Temperance*

        Homophobia is the chief reason why I do not donate, though, and I wish that people running these things thought about the optics and the message that they’re sending their gay employees.

    7. Michelle*

      My son has a fairly rare blood type (AB+). He donated at school once and now he gets a call every single month from the blood bank wanting him to donate. He doesn’t because he got sick and passed out when he did it at school but they just will not let him be. I took his phone once and told them to take him off the call list because it’s not going to happen.

      Not exactly the same situation that you are dealing with, but if someone says no to donating blood, people need to let them be. There could be all kinds of reasons. I vote for the little white lie.

      1. NW Mossy*

        For those getting bugged directly by the blood bank/donation org, I found that the phrase “If you call to ‘remind’ me to donate again, I promise that I’ll never donate again” is remarkably effective in suddenly getting your request to be on their don’t-call list honored.

        I donate when I’m able, but I’m not an every-56-days-like-clockwork type and it tees me off incredibly when I’m asked to be one.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Blood bullies. Thank you for saying this out loud. I don’t give blood because [reasons]. For years I have been watching people strong arm others into donating blood and I have felt it was over the top. A donation is something done out of one’s free will. If one is being forced into making a donation, it is no longer their free will.

      1. Mreasy*

        this makes me sad! I have an in-demand blood type & have no fear of needles, so I donate a lot, but it’s insane that people would badger others about something that pushes a lot of buttons for a lot of people. I support organizations who advocate for eliminating the homophobic bias in blood donation, but my personal decision is to give meanwhile. However it’s so legitimate for that and so many other reasons not to donate! I hate that “blood bullies” turn people off from the whole experience.

  93. Amber Rose*

    Small rant: I’m auditing this week and next. I was clear in the meeting on Monday that I’m not available unless someone is dying.

    Still getting a ton of forwarded emails.

    I spent two straight days asking stupid questions with a polite face. I haven’t even read my damn emails until today. And since I’m on a pretty severe time limit to get it done, QA’d and revised, I can’t be multitasking.

    Grr.

    1. Amber T*

      Can you put an out-of-office note on that says you’ll follow up with them on 10/10 (or whenever auditing stops) unless it’s an emergency?

  94. Fourth Month*

    I’m still job-hunting. Good news: I have some work now, as an independent contractor with a firm that formats theater scripts, captioning performances for theater patrons with deafness or low hearing. I’m enjoying it, though it’s not in line with my overall career goals.

    I had a Skype interview on Tuesday which went well. (I haven’t used Skype for years, so I’m proud of myself for re-learning how it worked, putting googly eyes next to my laptop camera so I would be reminded to make “eye contact” with the other person, etc.) The position is a remote one, coordinating speakers for conferences, so I’d be doing scheduling, travel logistics, collecting creative materials from contributors, and assessments after events. I liked my interviewer, and she gave me a clear idea what the position requires; it would a great fit for my goals.

    They’ve presented me with a test as the next interview phase. It involves creating scheduling for an imaginary event and using a Google service I’m not familiar with. I’m very nervous that I’ll make some obvious blunder and look silly. It’s hard to learn this new thing when I’m quaking in my boots and going, “MUST NOT EFF UP.” Boy oh boy.

    I also need to keep doing more job applications in case this one doesn’t work out. But it’s hard to find the time, with all these other responsibilities. I think my priorities should go:

    1. Put effort into test.
    2. Get on with interim job.
    3. New job applications.

    What do you all think?

  95. May*

    This is more of a cautionary tale than a question but I have an ongoing frustrating work situation of my own making that I feel like ranting about. Last year I recommended my sister’s boyfriend (we’ll call him Phil) for a short-term contract position in my office because he was looking for work and since it was only a temporary thing and only partially involved with my own department it wouldn’t be too awkward. He got the job and everything was fine until a few months later when he dumped my sister and acted like a complete jerk throughout the whole process (cheated on her and lied about it, acted like a tool about giving her stuff back (which eventually he did by bringing it in to work to give to me), etc.). Making matters worse, the week after this happened I was asked to serve as his work mentor which would involve frequent one-on-one meetings. I was completely furious at him but I didn’t want the situation to reflect poorly on me at work so I just compartmentalized and got through it, telling myself the whole time that he would be gone in a few months. But I think Phil mistook my professionalism for me being ok with him, because at the end of his contract period he applied for and accepted a permanent position in my department. When my manager talked to me about it she asked if he and my sister had broken up because she noticed I didn’t chat with him at his desk anymore and I said yes. She asked if I would be uncomfortable training him but I was gunning for a promotion at the time and didn’t want Phil’s douchey behavior to get in the way of my work reputation so I said no, and trained him. Which was very personally unpleasant, but again, compartmentalization got me through it.

    It’s mostly ok now because I did get the promotion and don’t do much one-on-one work with him anymore, but it occasionally becomes an issue because the quality of his work has not been very good for the most part. He had a period of time where he was just making tons of mistakes, and as his trainer I had to have a lot of conversations with our manager about it and the whole time I wanted to be like “He suuuuuucks please fire him” but because I’m worried about seeming biased I always end up erring on the side of caution and being too nice about it (even though manager was very frustrated with him and ranted quite a bit).

    So I guess the moral of the story is no matter how good a person your relative’s SO appears to be and no matter how confident you are that the position you’re recommending them for is temporary, just do not let them become your coworker. It is terrible.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      It looks like you’ve gone a long way toward demonstrating you’re NOT biased toward him, so I wouldn’t worry about pointing out the quality of his work in the future.

    2. Michelle*

      Just wanted to say “He suuuuuucks please fire him” has made my day!

      Sorry you are dealing with this!

  97. New Manager*

    I am new at my job and a new manager. I wasn’t actually hired to be a manager, but they ended up giving me these duties anyway. I have an employee who has the worst attitude and is completely insubordinate on a regular basis. Trial by fire! He refused to punch in (no one had made him before, and he is non-exempt), he refuses to take lunches, he argues and pushes back about everything – EVERYTHING. And if he doesn’t push back, he flat out ignores my emails (I work remotely a couple days a week). I do try to address some of the bigger things, but honestly, he scares me. When we first got into a discussion about punching in and out, I remained calm and told him I sensed some resistance to this and asked what was going on. He was almost yelling at me and essentially refusing to do it. He then accused me – to my boss – of harrassment, creating a hostile work environment, and bullying. Because I want him to punch in!!

    Anyway, because he intimimdates me, it’s gotten to the point where I don’t push things with him. I know it’s not helping and that this isn’t the best way to handle things but does anyone have any advice? I feel like this is a tough situation even for an experienced manager. I do have the authority to fire him but because I’m new and super busy, the timing hasn’t been great. I just don’t know how to handle him. Any tips?

    1. Random Lurker*

      You should get your boss involved. Shame on your boss for not involving himself when the complaint was made. But ask your boss for some guidance, how should you handle this employee who is insubordinate and combative.

      Without involving your boss, you may want to ask some trusted friends/coworkers to give feedback on your tone. There is no one size fits all communication style. It may help to know how other interpret your tone, and use that data to figure out different ways to talk with different employees.

      1. New Manager*

        My boss has been involved and he supports me but I just don’t know what to do! Do I write him up? Honestly, I worry that if I do, it will just make it worse and I’m still so busy learning my own new job and all the complexities with it. He’s also very litigous so I want to tread carefully.

        As for tone, my boss actually asked him “what did she say? What was the tone? What were the specifics? Why don’t you send me an email with the way in which you’d like to be communicated?” and he had no specifics and never sent out that email. Because it was a harrassment/bullying/hotile work environment (none of which apply – even if he was annoyed with my tone or whatever), they had to at least investigate and the results were that no one ever thought I had a bad tone with people, no one ever observed any bullying or aggression or hostility from me.

        Part of this also stems from the fact that he used to report to his girlfriend, then his mother in law. Before I even started managing him, he was extremely hostile when he found out about the change.

        1. Isben Takes Tea*

          I commented below, but I just want to reiterate, this guy does not respect you or your authority, and it has nothing to do with your tone. This is not a situation that you can fix by changing something on your end–it will only fix if he changes, and if he’s unwilling to do that, he needs to go.

        2. Amber T*

          Record any interaction with him where he’s being an asshat. When you request something of him, email him (so you have it in writing). Don’t be afraid to say in said email “this is the third/fourth/tenth time I’ve asked you” and “per our discussion on 9/1.” He can jump up and down yelling about harassment and a hostile work environment all he wants – it sounds like your boss took the threat seriously enough to start a proper protocol (asking good questions, requesting in writing what happened) and this guy didn’t follow through with anything.

          Have a serious conversation with your boss keeping to the facts (even though he used to report to family/friends most likely is why he’s acting the way he is, it isn’t necessarily relevant). Ask your boss what the next steps are for an employee that’s being insubordinate and with these infractions – is it PIP? Is it a write up? Is it firing? Again, make sure you keep detailed notes about what he does and says – if he is that stupid and litigious and is let go, HR will appreciate any documentation of him being an asshat.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Oh boy. I hope your boss can do better than this. Your boss needs to tell him that you are his boss and he needs to follow the rules.
          If your boss cannot do this, you are in a bad spot.

          As to the other two women who work there, you should talk this over with your boss.

          I say fire the guy and let the cookies crumble. If you can’t fire the guy because of the other two women, then you don’t truly have the authority to fire.

          My take on this is that you innocently walked into a hornet’s nest and your boss knows but is not telling you.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      It sounds like you need to lay out the plan with yourself, your boss (for support), and then do it: 1) meet with him tell him his role requires he do X, Y, and Z (punch in, not yell, respond to emails) starting immediately or you’ll take it as a sign he is no longer interested in the role. If he does X, Y, and Z, thank him for his time in the role and wish him best of luck elsewhere, and that his final paycheck will be ready in the appropriate time frame. (But have a plan–does your building have security? Do you want your boss in the room?)

      I’m guessing that other employees will see this as a very good sign from you–he’s probably not the optimal coworker, and he’s currently undermining your authority in a HUGE way.

      One thing I’ve learned from Alison is that the timing is never good for firing someone, other than the sooner the better.

      Good luck–this is definitely hard.

      1. New Manager*

        Thank you for the tips! I keep telling my boss the same thing – that the timing will never be perfect but that I’d rather spend my time training someone new who wants to be there than dealing with his negativity and hostility. My boss is a little anxious about doing it because of how litigous he is and I know he’s a fan of guns (not that it means he’ll be violent, but with the rest of his hostility and agression, I worry about it.). I’ve documented everything so even though there haven’t been write ups, there is at least a record of what’s happened.

        The other concern with firing him is that his girlfriend and her mother both work there, so firing him could have consequences with them. We’re a tiny company so it would have a big impact if we lost all of them at the same time.

        1. Isben Takes Tea*

          Oooh, yeah, that would be tough. (But from the outside looking in, on the brief details here, it sounds like it would be better off overall for the whole organization if it happened that way.) You can’t manage effectively if you’re held hostage by employees!

        2. ZVA*

          Honestly, I think the benefits of firing this guy will outweigh any consequences—even losing his mother and girlfriend. I agree with the commenters who’ve suggested you lay out very clearly what you need from him (to punch in, to take lunches, to not yell at you, etc.) and what the consequences will be (firing) if he doesn’t comply. Very cut and dry: if you don’t do X, Y, and Z, you are out of here. Loop your boss in so that they know what you’re planning to do… but do it. Document everything, but don’t let his litigiousness deter you. And good luck—we’re all rooting for you.

    3. Drew*

      This is rough and I have been there. In my experience, the most important thing with someone like this is consistency: if you have required him to do X and you let him get away with not-X even once, he will use that as precedent not to have to do it in the future.

      You also can let him have his rant and then reinforce your requirement: “I understand that you are frustrated with having to punch in. Nevertheless, you are required to do so.” However, it sounds like maybe you want to have one of AAM’s “larger issue” conversations: “Fergus, I have observed that you are pushing back and becoming argumentative when I tell you to do something that is different from what you have done in the past. I need you to understand that what I am telling you are requirements of your role. You don’t have to like them, but you do have to do them and you have to stop arguing with me when I give you instructions, or you will not be able to continue in your role.”

      It’s very hard, especially with someone like your coworker. Best of luck!

  98. zora.dee*

    I am so on my last nerve with the New Company already, I’ll try to list in short bullets the background and current situation, am I being unreasonable being so frustrated? Would you push back or bring up any of these issues, or would you let them go.

    – This was the job that started temp to perm, they offered me the job, but the new permanent salary is a $7,000 pay cut from my temp pay. Yes, I get PTO and other benefits, but the health insurance is terrible, so the benefits aren’t worth $7,000.
    – I also find out (after much prodding) that because of their biweekly payperiod system, I’m going to have a 3 week gap between my last paycheck from the temp company and the first from New Company. Fine, it happens, I carefully plan my bills for the month so I can get through the gap.
    – Right before my start date with New Company, I have a relapse of my recent health issue, and was out for the whole week (in and out of the ER for 8 days).
    – The following Monday when I get back to the office, HR rep calls me and tells me that they can’t consider me an employee the previous week, so I’m not getting PTO for the entire time I was out. Again, understandable since I hadn’t accrued PTO anyway, but the delivery was kind of curt. So that first paycheck will be for only one week, not two. Ouch, but I’ll have to make it work. (also, I had sick time accrued with the temp agency, but they had already terminated me, so that sucks)
    – It’s like pulling teeth all week to get direct answers from HR to what paperwork they need, how I should submit it, how they want to fill out my I-9, etc. Most emails get one word answers “Yes.” without answering the other 2 questions in the email.
    – First Friday payday comes around, 9/23 (according to the pay period chart they gave me earlier.) No money is in my bank account, nothing in the mail at home or at the office. Email the payroll person on Monday: “Oh, since you didn’t get the paperwork turned in by the cutoff date, you will get paid for 3 weeks on October 7.”
    – First, I turned in my paperwork before the cutoff, but she was out of the office until after the cutoff, which I was not told until after I sent in the paperwork. They totally didn’t tell me that the deadline was 3 days earlier that week, because she was going to be out of the office.
    – Second, after I turned in the paperwork, they still did not tell me that my payday would be pushed back until I *asked*.. which was already after payday! Gah! That seems to me really important information for people to know, that they could have at least told me so that I would be able to try to plan for it.
    – Third, That is actually illegal according to CA paycheck law. I work in CA, but the company is based in Minneapolis.
    – Fourth, not only is rent due well before 10/7, I have had hundreds of dollars in medical expenses in the last two months, and this is putting me in a very precarious financial situation to try to pay all of my bills before October 7.

    On one hand, I feel bad being so mad, because they have been very supportive about this health issue, and my needing time off, and have been very understanding that I’ve had to take so much time off in such a short time. But I feel like they are not pro-actively telling me important things I need to know. Should I say something? Point out that I am having a hard time getting information I need. Or should I just shut up and deal? Thanks all, I’m mostly venting I guess, but I am so frustrated.

    1. Mustache Cat*

      Yes, say something! This is a pattern at this point. Take this list and anything else you can think of that’s relevant, word it more profesionally, and take it to whoever can help you (I’m not sure if that’s HR, payroll, or your manager). Be super pleasant and make it clear that you’re really interested in learning how you can communicate with (whoever) better, since you’ve had a few miscommunications already. They cannot keep screwing around with your paycheck like this.

      1. zora.dee*

        Well, that brings up that I have no idea who I would take it to. That’s been a big issue with the whole merger into the New Company, figuring out how to find the right person to go to with basically any issue has been impossible. Not just HR, all departments. Their “employee phone list” just lists names and phone numbers. No department, title, role, etc.

        But thank you for pointing out that it’s a pattern and I’m justified in bringing this up. I’ll try to figure out what I could do.

    2. Overeducated*

      Whoa, this is really bad. I don’t have any advice but being upset is more than justified. Best wishes for your health situation as well as this job mess.

      1. zora.dee*

        Thank you! I’m feeling better and the health issue is supposed to be sorted out for good now, but now I have a giant pile of medical bills and forms and things which will require hours of phone calls to sort out, so I’m still tired and stressed. I can’t wait until I finally get enough sleep to feel normal again.

    3. E*

      Say something to them for sure, and possibly bring your manager into the situation if needed. Since they’re based in Minneapolis they may not be familiar with CA law (although that’s their responsibility), so just tell them that “per CA law” you must be paid according to x, y, z laws and ask them how they intend to resolve the payroll issues now. Ask for a timeline, follow up with an email confirming what they tell you verbally. Then if they don’t pay you on time, report them.

      1. zora.dee*

        Yeah, I think the ship has sailed on the payroll issue for this time.. I asked if it was possible to get part of my pay earlier, and she has now agreed to direct deposit the first week of pay on 10/3, which is still a few days after the CA payroll timeline, but it’s only a few days away now, so I feel like it would be weird to push the issue now…. and once I’m on the regular payroll schedule, this won’t be a problem again in the future.

        But I guess I should have brought that up in the first place. Part of the frustration is that every time I contact them it takes them over a day to get back to me, so by the time they responded, it already felt too late to do anything about it.

        But thank you for validating that I am allowed to bring these things up, I feel like I’m so frustrated that I worry that I’m overreacting or being unreasonable because my emotions are involved.

        1. overeducated*

          Your BANK ACCOUNT is involved. There may be an emotional side, but money makes it about as objective as anything can get in the working world.

        2. DoDah*

          You have every right to be concerned. You are not overreacting. You sound very reasonable to me.

          A very similar thing happened to me when I started with current employer with the “not telling me or giving me the payroll paperwork.” and “not telling me they won’t be paying me on time” and “not obeying California law” This was a sign. This company also late pays vendors, lets social campaigns expire, fires vendors without cause “so we don’t have to pay them”…..

  99. Jennifer*

    I am so grateful to have been moved out of public service because ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM CALLED IN SICK TODAY. I’d almost wonder if it was a coordinated protest except for the two poor schmucks who weren’t let in on it. Meltdown ensues, #1!
    Meanwhile, my new group…well, one of them is also having a meltdown at being given more work on top of her other workload (plus she is not feeling well), and the other two are pretty much all, “Well, we’re so busy we can’t do this new stuff either.” Metltdown #2!
    And we have this giant list of stuff the new team is supposed to be doing and we’re supposed to be dividing the list by four. I am strongly thinking I’m just going to end up doing it all by myself one way or another, so maybe I should just start doing it all by myself right now? Even though my workload is insane + I need to be covering for others in non-public service ways.

    On the other hand, this is my last day doing part time in the public service unit at all and I’m losing that workload after today. So there’s that.

    As usual, everyone is upset and crazy!

    Though on the good news side, new boss has a list of improvements he wants to make, though we’ll see if he’s allowed to do them. So that’s a yay. Plus I’m not in the midst of the public service drama, double yay.

    But seriously, WHAT THE HELL DO WE HAVE TO DO TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO LET US HIRE NEW PEOPLE?! Nobody can take this level of workload any more, period. I’m almost tempted to write in about it, except I’m sure the answer is “nothing, y’all will just have to drown or find new jobs.”

    1. Michelle*

      Would drowning and letting some things not get done convince them to hire additional help? We had that situation recently and the manager said do what you can and let everything else go. After a few weeks of things not getting done, we go 2 new hires and the workload has improved dramatically.

      Sorry – I know not having enough staff sucks!

      1. Jennifer*

        I’m not sure, but I think it’s gonna happen at this point.
        It literally takes months to hire even when they want to hire people (and in the public service unit they do. not. want. to.), so….I don’t know.

        I think for all the bragging about how they love to give awesome customer service, they’re just going to have to lower their standards and start taking weeks to get things done at this rate.

  100. she was a fast machine*

    So, I’m still new here, but how recent is recent when it comes to submitting things to AMA? I sent an email about a month or so ago that I honestly didn’t think Allison would end up answering but I would still like to get at least a little feedback on so I wanted to post here and get some opinions, but…I don’t know if she might or might not actually end up answering it.

    2. zora.dee*

      you can also send Allison a followup email asking if she will be answering your question, or if you can post in an open thread. She said she usually can respond and let you know if it’s in the queue or not.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s a crapshoot — my mail queue is terribly backlogged and while I answer some things quickly, it takes months for others (and there’s plenty that I never get to). If you want, you can email me and I can tell you whether it’s my “definitely answer this” queue or if you’d be better off posting it here.

  101. Kalliopesmom*

    I am searching for a new job after recently given the end of assignment from a staffing call center. I was wondering if anyone had insight to checking the disability box on applications. I have PTSD, bipolar and fibromyalga. Last position I held was an at home remote QA for a call center. Easy work that didn’t interfere withe my disabilities. My new job search is focused on remote work again. I haven’t received many responses and wonder if its because I check the disability box – anyone have some insight to help. Please and thank you ; )

        1. Golden Lioness*

          I think it’s not because of your disability, but because remote work is harder to find. Good luck! Be healthy!

  102. Pixel*

    How do I work on my “don’t give a rat’s patootie” attitude towards someone who pretty clearly dislikes me?
    This person is perfectly nice to those in the office they like. They’re chatty, bubbly and friendly with these people, but never say anything to me unless it’s work-related. In fact, they pass me in the hallway of our small office and never say good morning or acknowledge my existence. They’re never overtly rude to me but it’s pretty obvious.
    I realize this is how they roll, I know I must have rubbed them the wrong way early on, I’m pretty confident in my social skills in other settings and have an easy relationships with other people in the office, including the boss. I shouldn’t care so much, but still, it bites.

    1. LA Gaucho*

      Post it! I’m still hoping an email I sent 3 years ago will randomly show up :)

      If your letter was in an upcoming post, maybe she’d delete your post or comment that it will be posted soon.

      2. LA Gaucho*

        Aw man, sorry. ^ was in reply to the post 2 posts above you. Delete delete delete!

        In regards to your situation…there are 2 people I sit back to back with. I feel like I’ve rubbed them the wrong way too. One is chatty with everyone else but me, the other doesn’t really talk to anyone. I ignore them both :) As long as you are cool with your boss and everyone else who you want to interact with, let that person be jealous of you or whatever their problem is.

    2. Way over there*

      Isn’t “don’t give a rat’s patootie” the best way to deal with somebody who dislikes you? I mean, unless they are actively sabotaging your career, there really isn’t much you can or need to do.

      1. Pixel*

        Now my issue is getting from knowing that I should not be giving a rat’s patootie, to actually not giving one…

        1. Inspector Spacetime*

          This is difficult for me to do as well. Just try to say to yourself, “not everyone has to like me,” and then smile at them and be professional.

          Sorry, that’s the best I’ve got! If anyone knows the trick to stop yourself from feeling something through sheer willpower, let me know because I could certainly use it!

    3. NicoleK*

      Things you can repeat to yourself:

      1. X doesn’t appear to like me but I am on good terms with A,B, and C
      2. X and I are too very different people and we probably don’t have much in common
      3. X ignores me but I can ignore X too
      4. It’s okay if not everyone likes me

    4. Not So NewReader*

      May or may not work in your setting.

      I had a person who worked in another company but I saw regularly while I was at work. She came to my store bought something and there were lots of problems with it. She was so mad at me because I stuck with company policies and did not do what she wanted. Now this is a person that I saw everyday and I could not avoid and she was hopping angry with me.

      I pretended not to notice. I decided that this person was not going to make a dent in my day nor was she going to ruin my job for me. I pretended not to notice her anger.

      “Good morning, Jane, how are you?”
      I pretended not to notice she was not answering me, I just went about my day as if my world was just SWELL.

      After a few days of pretending not to notice she caved. Why. She looked like a FOOL when she did not answer me. Other people were staring at her. It took her a few days to realize that I just did not “get it”, I had NO clue that she was mad at me or why. She would actually HAVE to explain to me that she was mad and why she was mad. She must have decided that was way too much work.

      This may or may not make sense for your setting, only you know for sure. But if you decide to go this route, remember you are taking the high road. Keep that thought in your head, keep your words light and if it is your habit, keep a smile on your face.

  103. Jillociraptor*

    I recently joined the board of a nonprofit and I’m struggling to find a productive way to work with the ED. She’s the classic scrappy non-profit ED: she’s the founder of the organization, totally overstretched, and kind of touchy about critical feedback. Do you have any ideas about working well with her?

    First, she acts super put upon when the board suggests that something different needs to be done. Rather than replying something like, “Great idea, can you take the lead on that?” she sighs deeply and says “That just sounds like more work for me.” Which…obviously doesn’t particularly inspire board members.

    Then, when you do volunteer to do something, the whole conversation is about how changing anything would be too much work or too hard. There’s always some reason why it can’t be done, but the present state is also untenable.

    This organization is great, but it has real cashflow problems and some very obvious needs. What tips do you have for working with the put-upon nonprofit ED and founder?

    1. designbot*

      Can you try addressing the larger issue with her? Call out that it seems like she’s really overstretched and ask her what support she needs so that every little thing won’t become a burden.

    2. JLK in the ATX*

      16 yrs non-profit; past Bd Member and Ex. Director

      Perhaps she is tired and overworked. Has anyone talked with her about this? Perhaps she has
      Founder’s syndrome (also founderitis) is a popular term for a difficulty faced by organizations where one or more founders maintain disproportionate power and influence following the effective initial establishment of the project, leading to a wide range of problems for both the organization and those involved in it. This needs to be addressed, and you’re not the only one who is annoyed/tired/frazzled by the ED’s responses.

      You might be the only one (being new) wanting to address is (doubtful). You might find the Bd President (depending on their time in service) has resigned themselves to it or needing help to make the change, but not sure how to do so. Ask the Bd President, “I want to be as helpful and resourceful to this Bd, which is why I joined, and I’m having a hard time communicating with or understanding the ED’s posture on the mission, what we the Board are trying to do. What’s your advice on helping and working with her?”

      Realize that an ED has many Board members suggesting great ideas and many members aren’t helping those great ideas come to fruition. She might have a history of not getting (or asking for help) help and she’s skeptical of more work should equal better results. Maybe she doesn’t know how to activate Bd members and therefore she’s not so excited about working with them. All of these are reasonable possibilities but none help to further the mission.

      Are the proposed ideas based on a reality and not just because they made a decision at the Bd meeting? Where the metrics, financials, program outcomes finely reviewed to make this decision? Are the ideas/changes congruent with mission, programs to build capacity? Bds often detail a task list to the ED, during each meeting, and the ED walks away with a bigger to-do and no resources. But, her response is less professional. It’s not that even a lead should be appointed, if anything she should probe more, ‘prove it’ more, inquire more and then say, “Please take the lead on that.” Because if the ED asks, no one will pony up. She should say, “Could work. Let’s get your committee together (because every Bd member is on a committee right?) and make it happen.”

      Each member should have a good, open relationship with the ED and feel comfortable reaching out to her, offering assistance and support. It’s hard for a Bd member not to feel welcome to a place where they’re giving their time freely. To feel otherwise is a waste of your time, talent and not good for non-profit business.

      One thing Bd’s forget is that the Bd President is ultimately the ED’s boss, the single point of contact. If you have issues with the ED, you need to go to the Bd President for assistance, support, reinforcement. I don’t think it’s ok for Bd members, individually, to address issues with the ED because that’s a lot of feedback and if it’s mostly critical, it’ll get out of hand fast (and the Bd President won’t know what’s going on and that’s a lot of unknowns) In particular, this issue has been presented to all Bd members, and she probably has issues with each one – in some way.

      In the end, there are few – few – ED’s who should remain at the helm for too long, for this exact reason.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        Thank you for sharing your perspective! This is really helpful. I have worked closely with boards in the past, and I understand the frustration of struggling sometimes to get a volunteer group to take something and run with it, so I do empathize with her, but it’s challenging that when I do what she asks, the result is hemming and hawing about how much work it is. I think it makes sense to talk about her workload with her and how it’s impacting her ability to be strategic.

        1. JLK in the ATX*

          I can understand your perspective as a Bd member. It doesn’t feel good when you want to do something and the ED doesn’t even give you the time of day to explain why. But I highly encourage that this conversation comes in partnership with the BoD President, they should always be informed of any concerns/issues with the ED, as they are their primary boss.

          Perhaps my perspective is biased, but this is my experience. I had 12 BoD members coming to me with their ‘suggestions’ on how I could run the non-profit better. It was overwhelming, defeating and inappropriate. (I came from the military wherein I only had one ‘rater’/boss and we followed a chain of command, something lacking in most non-profits.)

          If you have a significant issue with her ability and her standing in the way of progress, maybe it’s time for her to move on. Get that conversation started with the BoD Exec. Committee.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            OMG yes, this! I am on a board now with seven people. If ALL of us keep running to our director with new ideas, she will end up in the ER.

            Pick ONE person to be the contact person with the director. All communication goes through this person. This person also will be a filter, to make sure the director does not end up in the ER.

            Write out a one year plan or a five year plan, whichever and STICK to it. Do not keep adding things on.

            Get the board to tell the director thank you every so often.

            Have one or two board members sit down with the director and review her current projects and ordinary tasks.
            a) maybe tasks/projects need to be restructured or re-prioritized.
            b)maybe she needs more help or maybe she needs better quality help
            c)get up to date on current regs and how much time she spends filling the requirements of current regs
            d) talk to her about tools, how is her computer and other devices that she uses are these tools adequate
            e) how long has the board been adding more tasks and not adding more time/people/tools, etc

            And here is the biggie: If your board is looking to be inspired by her then they are causing a chunk of the problem. The board should be an inspiration TO her, not the other way around. If she has to inspire all of you plus do her job, then yes, she is going to burn out big time.

  104. FridayAnon*

    so… i am being offered (and have accepted) a promotion at work. it’s moving from one area of HR that I’ve become well versed in to another that I don’t have much experience in. they are talking that since it’s a promotion that I will be given a raise and am jumping a pay band.

    any idea on how much i should ask for? i’m right smack dab in the middle of my current pay band, but before this current opportunity came up they were already talking about promoting me into a senior leveled position. middle of the next pay band for new position is 9K more than i currently make. do i ask for 10% (which will still get me below middle of pay band) or 10K?

    any thoughts would be much appreciated. my last raise was only 1000 but i have performed excellent work that has been recognized by company leaders and the head of my HR department.

  105. pathecre*

    My BIL thinks you should always take the grocery store bagger up on his/her offer to help you to you car. My sister and I never do since we’re perfectly capable.

    Do these folks like carting bagged groceries to shoppers’ cars & loading them? Or would they prefer to stay in the store & bag the next customer’s groceries? Assuming I’m able bodied, am I doing them a favor by giving them a chance to step outside for a few minutes? Or am I slightly disrupting the overall checkout flow in the store (assuming a busy Saturday morning)? If someone does roll my groceries to my car and load them into my car, should I tip &, if so, how much? Does the answer to any/all of these questions vary by location?

    1. Sadsack*

      I think it’s perfectly fine to say no thanks. Why would that be a problem? Leave them free to continue bagging or helping someone who really needs it.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I used to work retail, though this wasn’t part of my job. We were told to offer specifically worded statements to customers, so this is almost certainly a situation where they are mandated to offer by their supervisors to say exactly this and offer you a service. It may be part of their customer service survey metrics, like a “Did the store associate assisting you with your bags offer to help you to your car with the items?” kind of thing.

      I wouldn’t begrudge someone who needs help taking baggers up on this, or if you have a particularly burdensome item to load into your car. On a regular day, with able-bodied people, I would have been annoyed having to offer that time had it been required of me to ask that question.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Absolutely not. I don’t want anybody following me to my car. As a young woman who generally shops alone, my safety comes first; I hate having to think this way, but that’s just the world we live in. Plus I am just as physically able as men, and can carry my own damn groceries, thank you very much.

    4. burnout*

      My son has worked as a bagger for a couple of large grocery chains in TX. At both, they were trained to ask, “May I help you out to your car?” or whatever. You can say no.

      If you say yes, you could offer a tip but they were not supposed to take it.

    5. Chaordic One*

      If you’re physically able to do it yourself, I certainly would. About a year ago I had fairly minor surgery and wasn’t supposed to lift anything more than 10 pounds for about 4 months. At one point I did overdo it and lifted something and pulled some stitches and it was painful. I felt self-conscious about having help because I don’t think I looked like someone who needed help, but it was a lifesaver. Several times the bagger was a female who was like a foot shorter than myself and who appeared to be 10 to 20 years older than myself.

      I’m better now, but I would certainly recommend it for my elderly parents and for myself if I needed help.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Do these folks like carting bagged groceries to shoppers’ cars & loading them? Or would they prefer to stay in the store & bag the next customer’s groceries?

      Some do and some don’t. It does not matter because it’s a job requirement.

      Assuming I’m able bodied, am I doing them a favor by giving them a chance to step outside for a few minutes?

      With some yes, and with others no. No way to tell who belongs to which group.

      Or am I slightly disrupting the overall checkout flow in the store (assuming a busy Saturday morning)?

      You are massively disrupting the checkout flow. But that is a manager’s problem or a company problem, not yours. It is actually worse on the off hours when there is even less staff.

      If someone does roll my groceries to my car and load them into my car, should I tip &, if so, how much?

      No, they are told not to accept tips. If you do, a few dollars is about the norm. Remember there are parking lot cameras, the employee is being watched just as much as the customer.

  106. LA Gaucho*

    Electronic signatures…can they be saved in a document? Or does the e-sig only allow you to save your signature on the most recent version?

    Long story short, I believe this person lied to me about intending to send me a document one week ago. I requested a HR document on Day 1. Day 7 I sent a reminder email. Day 14 I sent another reminder email and CC’d their boss.

    I got an apology email 30 minutes later and she said she had everything saved on Day 7 but forgot to send it to me (yeah right). Anyway, the documents are all dated Day 7, but the electronic signature clearly has Day 14 with a timestamp 10 minutes before she sent me the documents.

    Ultimately I got what I needed and returned all documents 24 hours later, but this bozo made a very stressful time even more stressful. This situation (not receiving HR docs) keeps happening to people in my medium sized unit, so it’s not like this is a one time thing. *heavy sigh*

  107. Emily Gilmore*

    I have a question that might order on too legal, but thought someone might be able to help.
    I’m currently on FMLA and was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. I am recently separated from my husband because of emotional abuse and now living with family in a different state because I couldn’t live on my own.

    As of now, I still can’t live independently and thus can’t move back to the state where my job is located. (This is a job at a University, if that matters at all.) HR is telling me that I cannot work remotely from this state once my FMLA is up. What recourse (if any) do I have? My job doesn’t really require me to be there in-person. I have been on FMLA for about 8 weeks, and just this week started treatment because I finally received an official diagnosis.

    1. Temperance*

      There are really complicated tax reasons why you can’t work from another state. Do you have to live with your family? Can you get an apartment back in your home state?

    2. LA Gaucho*

      I, too, work at a University and I searched Remote Work Guidelines. I hope your U has a similar policy, but it basically says that your supervisor needs to approve it, you need to be in good standing (good evaluations), and the job’s operation needs can be met.

      Good luck!

    3. LQ*

      I’m not surprised by this. The regulations vary so much state by state and now your employer has to be an employer in that state. Especially if it is something like ==low regulation state== moving to say…California. In which case suddenly they have to meet all the requirements and regulations of that new state. Unless they already have employees in your new state it might be a high hurdle to jump.

    4. fposte*

      So at this point you’re talking about an accommodation under the ADA, it sounds like. Setting up a tax presence in another state is likely to exceed reasonable accommodation, I’m afraid, so it’s not likely they’d be legally required to permit it.

      However, if there are other people doing your job who work remotely and any of them live in that other state, that’s a whole ‘nother kettle o’ fish, and I’d bring that up to HR.

    5. KiteFlier*

      Unfortunately after FMLA ends, there’s nothing I can think of that obligates your employer to keep you on if you cannot perform the job that you were hired to do. Even if your job itself doesn’t require you to be there in person, the university can require that.

      If their holdup is that you would be in another state, then as someone else said, there are tax implications. Could you move within the state the university is in but work remotely? If they still say you need to be in the office, can you have accommodations made? If it’s a possibility, check out the Job Accommodation Network (JAN) online for resources.

  108. JKB*

    Anyone have any advice about freelancing? I work full time at a pretty high-stress/high-responsibility job. I love what I do and am very passionate about it (digital marketing), and a contact recently approached me about a freelance project doing similar work. I met with the business owner yesterday and the project really intrigues me- there is a lot they aren’t doing, and I think they could see some great results with good, foundational tweaks to their digital strategy.

    The owner of the business, however, seems like a bit of a diva, but his office manager seemed really professional and would be the main contact. The project seems neat and the extra money would be fantastic, but will I hate it? Will it be too much and uber stressful? I know nobody can answer those questions, but has anyone ever been in a similar situation and what were your impressions? Thanks!

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Totally depends on what they’re expecting of you in terms of availability. Do they know you’re still working full-time? Are they going to expect that you be as available to answer questions or be on teleconferences as if you were a full-time freelancer?

      As someone who freelances fairly extensively in an area unrelated to my job, I will say that if you’re going to do this, set your limits at the beginning. Clients nearly always want more from you than they think they will at the beginning. If you can go back to an agreement and say, “actually, we agreed on two rounds of revisions for that price,” or “as we talked about, I’m not available for questions by phone during the workday,” you’ll be better off than if you don’t have one.

      (In my case, the work pays hobby wages, they can’t afford to pay me nearly what my day job does, and they know it — so they know when I say “I can’t do X” that I mean it, and am willing to walk away from the arrangement if they insist.)

      1. JKB*

        Those are really good points. They are definitely aware of my full-time job, but I can see how easy it would be to get into a situation where the clients expectations and my realistic availability don’t match up. Definitely something to discuss and think over in my own mind so I know what those limits are. Thank you!

    2. Manders*

      I don’t have much advice, but I work in the same field (also not as a freelancer) and this is something I’ve wondered about.

      From what I’ve read, the most important thing to have is a very clear contract laying out what work needs to be done, how many revisions are allowed, when payment happens, and when work will be stopped if payment doesn’t happen.

      I’ve also heard that in general, marketers shouldn’t promise a certain ROI, rankings boost, conversion rate, social engagement, and so forth, and payment shouldn’t be contingent on those things. There are just so many variables that go into those stats that even a perfectly executed project might have unpredictable results. But you should make a visually appealing “scorecard” that you can show to your client if you do have great results.

      1. JKB*

        Yeah, one of the things that I’ve been wondering about is that I’m used to a pretty technologically advanced culture where we track attribution on every single thing, which makes it easy to tie ROI back to different tactics. They don’t have that level of infrastucture or support, so it would be a change for me to go from tracking every single action to sort of guessing at impact and using softer metrics. Not impossible or anything, but just a big change.

  109. Jenny 867-5309*

    Q: Using staff from one business to support another business AND the owner hasn’t a clue about the new business he’s going into

    Met with a guy who is opening a ‘tea room’. I have spent the past 2 years developing a ‘tea room’ concept but decided not to launch. That means all my market research, development, community knowledge to open my room would do well in working in his tea room. A friend, who is his tea room development consultant, noted that they’re finalizing the Ops Mgr job description and I would be a good fit.

    I had coffee with this guy, because I’m the ‘tea room’ guru in my area – and he knows nothing about ‘tea rooms’, so he could pick my brain. We looked over plans, how the business came about, and then he said, “I’ll need an Ops Mgr. You could be a good fit.” I knew this was coming and we chatted about it, but……

    1. He would have his staff, from his non-tea room business – manage some of the functions of the tea room (financials, marketing/branding/communications) while the Ops Mgr would do sales, client building, events, and operations. Is this normal or wise or legal?

    2. He doesn’t know anything about the new business he’s opening. That would mean I could be developing the direction, feel, brand, and community for the business. What kind of implications could his lack of knowledge have on the business and Ops Mgr role, that I could address should we get to an interview stage?

    This business should be open in 2 months. Lots of talking between then and now.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Nothing to add here except that I spent a long time trying to figure out what a “tea room” was, because it sounded awesome, before I realized that you were probably using an analogy…

      I will say, though, that I would be wary going into business with someone who is so completely inexperienced, especially because they would be your boss. I’m not sure if using employees from one company to do work for another is illegal but it certainly sounds like it could be. It would be easy to violate tax law, especially. I would get a lawyer to take a look at it.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Talk about some of the major differences between the businesses. What is unique to the tea room biz?

      Tell him what you need to make his biz successful. Ask him how each item on your list will be handled.

      If you can lay out what he can expect for results in the first month, six months, year. Make sure he can live with that.

  110. Pineapple Incident*

    The job search is finally turning up some leads! I have a cool opportunity that I’m interviewing for next week in person, and have had 4 phone interviews in the last week. The interview is for an entry-level teapot coordinator position, at a company that made a ‘great places to work’ list in the Post last year, with a great reputation.

    The problem is this; I’m in Northern Virginia, past the end of the orange line, and the job is up 270 past Rockville. I don’t know if I can handle the commute both ways, every day, when it could be up to 2 hours each way. I don’t know yet if they’re open to teleworking sometimes in this role or not, or whether I could shift to non-traditional hours. I’m going to try to find a light way to bring those things up during the interview, since they’re aware how far away I’m starting my commute.

    Anybody else do a really long commute for an awesome job? Is it worth it?

    1. Temperance*

      Okay so … I LOVE my job, and this summer, SEPTA stopped working, making my commute 90+ minutes each way. Honestly, it was nightmarish and, not exaggerating, destroyed my summer and quality of life. And this is with a very flexible schedule, not driving that far.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        That’s kinda what I’m thinking. I’m going to try it for the interview next week, but that’ll be in the early part of the day after rush-hour. If it sucks then, I might just withdraw respectfully after the interview.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      I wouldn’t do it. Four hours total in your car? No way. If working remotely isn’t an option, and neither is moving closer to the job, I wouldn’t take it.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        I think I needed someone to validate this feeling for me. The job sounds awesome, and the company great, but the fact that public transportation is not an option for me in this situation makes this reeeeally out of reach. Thanks for the honesty

  111. Mental health problems*

    I had a sudden and extremely severe mental illness relapse a week ago. I’ve been home from work since then. I’m trying to work out FMLA and/or short-term disability. Does anyone have advice on this? Has anyone here done this?

    I’m feeling pretty guilty and ashamed for not working, but my condition has physical symptoms that really do enforce a limit on what I can do. Just keeping up with FMLA paperwork at home right now is very difficult.

    And I’m expected to let my manager know each day that I won’t be coming in, but she doesn’t return my calls or emails. I’m trying not to read anything into that because my judgment is completely off-base right now. But how do I handle this when my manager won’t talk to me (or can’t or whatever is going on)?

    1. Mental health problems*

      About the calls and emails, by the way, I have left a message each morning (as I’m supposed to) and sent two emails. I was as calm and polite as I could be. I’m not having meltdowns in her inbox.

    2. LQ*

      Your manager might have been told to not talk to you at all if you have an HR department that gets like that? Do you have an idea like “I won’t be in the rest of the week” or anything? That might help your manager plan things out as well if you are just doing day to day calls. But if you have a big or powerful HR department or a boss who just does what they say I can totally see that being the reason. (If you have/are talking with HR.)

      1. Mental health problems*

        Hm. I emailed my manager a little while ago to ask if she had gotten my messages, and just now she wrote back “yes.” Again, I’m not a good judge of anything at the moment, but the one-word answer might mean she thinks she’s not supposed to talk to me.

        HR’s a two-person department. I spoke to one of them a few days ago, who was very helpful. I’ve never heard of any weird policies or problems coming from them.

    3. Not Me*

      I recently just returned to work from a long FMLA leave for mental health reasons. At first, my boss did keep texting me but all the sudden she stopped and I later learned it was because she was told to stop contacting me since I was on leave. I had all the paperwork filed and so there was no reason for me to contact her to let her know I wasn’t coming in.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. I was totally unable to work; all I did was cry and not eat and feel sick. Please take good care of yourself and I hope you feel better soon.

  112. anonymoose*

    I resigned today, but my boss is telling me that if I have any loyalty I’ll stay on for another month. I don’t have another job lined up yet, but I really don’t want to stay for more than two weeks. She’s already mad because I’m leaving at a bad time, and I know she’s going to be pissed off if I say I can’t stay for more than two weeeks. My plan is to stay firm and insist on two weeks, unless anyone has any other advice?

    2. Dee*

      Why is your boss’ emotional blackmail supposed to motivate you into staying longer? It sounds like she’s already pissed off.

      If you’re going to need her for a reference, maybe consider staying *if* you think that will make the difference in a good reference and a bad one.

      1. anonymoose*

        I knew she was going to be pissed, she’s already acting petty and childlike about it.

        I don’t ever plan on ever using her as a reference but I don’t know if someone will call her anyway and ask about my time there. I would personally like to end things on a better note, but now that I’m thinking about it I’m sure it’s not worth it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          She sounds like the type of person who will not let you land things on a better note. Make your best guess and do that.

  113. Allison*

    Can I ask people to stop touching my desk?

    The way we’re set up, we have one line of 4 workspaces, with another line of 4 facing us, separated by a partition. Each desk is a standing desk with an attached divider on the right, with the desk on the far left having an additional divider on the left. Often, someone will stand at the far right side of my desk to talk to the person across from me, and will often lean on the divider attached to my desk, so I end up feeling every movement they make as I work, especially when they tap on my desk or the divider as they talk. I get it’s a habit and they’re not doing it to bug me, but is it fair to ask them not to do it the next time they’re over here? Having them stand that close while having a conversation I’m not a part of is distracting enough (I really wish they’d just go around to that person’s side of the block, but I’m not gonna bother asking), the leaning and constant tapping makes it worse, especially when they accidentally press the button to raise my desk up.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I think this is a totally reasonable request. Something like “Oops, Bob when you lean on the divider like that it ends up moving my whole desk. Could you you avoid leaning on it?” should work just fine.

      1. Trix*

        I completely agree. If you treat it like no big deal, they will very likely respond in kind. It’s a reasonable request, so reasonable to mention.

        I also think you can mention the conversations happening over you. (One of my biggest pet peeves, it’s so distracting!)

        “Hey guys, could you take the conversation to one of your desks? It’s a little tough to concentrate when I’m right in the middle.”
        Obviously will depend on your tone, and of general office culture, but I will definitely say that to people, and I’ve heard it elsewhere in my office as well.

    2. Pixel*

      If the issue is people leaning on the divider, can you put some kind of decor to deter intruders – kind of like putting murals on walls to deter graffiti :-)

      (I was going to suggest barbed wire but thought it would come off a little heavy-handed. Ugh, I don’t like intrusions to my personal space – it’s like spending every day in a flight with someone kicking your chair from behind).

      1. Allison*

        Well I am going to be decorating my workspace for Halloween. Got some knickknacks from CVS, and I’ll be getting one of those stretchy cotton spider webs as soon as I can, and putting it over as much of my desk as possible with lots of spiders on that sumbish! And perhaps I can get some sort of decor there for all seasons . . .

        Actually, that reminds me at some point I wanna bring up dos and don’t for Halloween desk decorating, to get ideas and check my blind spots!

      2. Windchime*

        Haha with the barbed wire. Here in Seattle, we have these spike strips affixed to ledges on buildings and on the top of posts to keep the seagulls from landing on them. Perhaps something like that would work?

        But seriously. Maybe just a line of double-sided sticky tape along the edge of your divider would be enough to discourage people. And I don’t think it’s bad to say, “Hey, can you please not lean on my desk? Thanks!”

  114. LQ*

    We are being forced by Microsoft to move to a different thing that is going to make doing what I’ve been doing harder. This means I won’t be able to train any of my current coworkers to do it so I’ll have to take back all of the responsibilities of the painfully boring things. I won’t get to train that coworker on other things that needed this as a base. I will have to develop new (worse) ways of doing the things I’ve developed ways of doing. Another coworker is going to be furious at me because I’m basically undoing the good way that I’d developed to do things and am making it by all measures worse. I will have less time to work on actually interesting work.

    If someone offered me a more interesting job right now I’d take it.

    (My boss should be very glad they are putting me through a big leadership program, it is 100% what is keeping me here today. My mind may change when I’ve cooled down, but I’m pretty steaming mad. He was worried that it would make me leave, but today it is keeping me here. So yay for that. I’m just hopeful we can come up with a way to salvage some of this.)

    Also? I hate microsoft with every single bit of me today.

  115. animaniactoo*

    I have run so far out of work that I am cleaning out WAAAAYYYYY back in my e-mails. I’ve detailed a self-starter project for myself next week, but in the meantime it turns out that this was overdue. I’ve found some real gems of official communications from HR, and I thought I’d share them with you guys. I’ll post separately under here so that it’s not all just one big chunk.

    1. animaniactoo*

      re: Ladies Restroom

      Toilet etiquette is all about HYGIENE AND CLEANLINESS.

      Women are the first ones to complain about restroom cleanliness in the workplace. It’s hard to imagine what the home restrooms of your co-workers look like when you see the mess they leave behind in the restroom at work.

      What’s even sadder is when management have to send out emails like this and to put up signs reminiscent of kindergarten, reminding women of basic bathroom etiquette.

      Nobody likes to clean up someone else’s mess and so it make sense for everyone to clean up after themselves throughout the day to maintain a high standard of hygiene and cleanliness.

      Please follow these simple steps and we can all avoid these unwanted notices.

      1) Flush! Flush! Flush! Until your friends are gone….
      2) If you sprinkle when you tinkle, be a sweetie and wipe the seat. (I’m sure you’ve seen this around)
      3) If you are the cause of a clog, and you KNOW if you are, kindly take it upon yourself to first, attempt to correct it, and secondly, report it!
      4) Wash your hands, that’s where disease comes from.
      5) Sanitary napkins, non-biodegradable tampons should NEVER be flushed down the toilet but be wrapped and disposed of in the sanitary pad disposal bin.
      6) Lastly, PLEASE ALWAYS CHECK BEHIND YOU WHEN YOU”RE DONE.

      Thanks,

      2. Rat in the Sugar*

        “Flush until your friends are gone…”

        Um… my friends?! I do believe that is the very first time I’ve heard THAT particular euphemism, that’s awesome/awful!

    2. animaniactoo*

      re: The employee who was trying to startup his own business producing the same products the company makes

      As of XX/XX/XX, Albert Humperdink is no longer employed by Chocolate Teapots, Inc. Should any of you have questions about his accounts, any matters he left unresolved or if any one calls to ask for him, please direct all inquiries to either Valentina Warbleworth, or (company owner) Edward Flarnsblot.

    3. animaniactoo*

      re: The employee who was treated worse and worse in an attempt to get him to leave without firing him and it finally worked

      To employees:

      Angus Muddleberry is no longer working for Delta. Roger Bleatbrox, Logan Bumble and Misha Somnerbing have taken over the positions Angus handled.

      As Angus has no responsibilities for Delta, please do not communicate with him regarding any Teapots matters or share any Teapots information with him.

      Thank you.

      Management

    4. animaniactoo*

      For contrast, an employee who resigned on good terms:

      Hello All:

      Chocolate Teapots, Inc regretfully announces that Avery Orangeblush will no longer be employed by the company after XX/XX/XX. Avery, who has spent almost 5 years employed as Teapot’s Field Sales Representative, will be moving on to other opportunities.

      We thank Avery for his efforts during his time with us, and we wish him all the best for the future.

    5. animaniactoo*

      re: a few office policy clips

      LUNCH BREAKS
      · Effective today, designated conference rooms on the 9th floor should be utilized for lunch breaks, please use the lunch rooms between the hours of 12noon – 2:00pm.

      LUNCH AREA:
      · In order for each employee to have an opportunity to sit and enjoy their lunch, we ask that you limit yourselves to 30-minutes in the designated conference rooms. How you choose to spend the remaining lunch period is entirely up to you.

      ATTENDENCE BONUS:
      · Teapots recognizes its employee’s quarterly bonus for perfect attendance on April 1, July 1, October 1 and January 2.

      · To receive an attendance award, the employee must have been a full-time employee during the previous three-month period and have used no sick leave, taken no time off without pay, had no unscheduled late arrivals or early departures that are not made up within the same workweek, and had no unscheduled vacation leave (less than 48 hours advance notice).

      · The attendance award is $100 cash. This cash award has to be considered taxable income to the employee but will be “grossed up” to cover taxes so that the actual amount the employee realizes is $100. It will be included in the employee’s paycheck the first regularly scheduled payday following the quarterly period of April 1, July 1, October 1 and January 2.

        1. animaniactoo*

          The HR manager who sent this one (and the first on the Ladies Restroom) is no longer here. But otherwise, yes, I do get the feeling it might have devolved into that.

          One of the places my company falls down hard is on employee accommodations anywhere except at your desk. Our bathrooms are jokes. On one floor I swear they got leftovers from an elementary school and we’ve got kiddie sized toilets. On another they’ve got adult sized toilets, but midget sized stalls. Literally, my knees are almost hitting the door. I’m 5’10”. I’m tall, but I’m not *that* tall.

          And they don’t seem to understand why more people don’t use the designated lunch spaces when even after they increased the space of the “main” lunch room it was still a cramped space that about 25 people could fit into in a 100+ employee company. They think they’re making big concessions by creating that much space. But you’re not allowed to eat at your desk either…

        1. animaniactoo*

          Note that for most people, it’s less than a day’s pay. Very motivational. I’m pretty sure it’s been discontinued. I have to check the most recent handbook.

  116. Anonmoose*

    I just wanted to jump in and thank anamaniactoo and other readers for helping me figure out how to deal with “my office is hot but I have self-harm scars from years ago so I feel stuck in long sleeves/pants,” and not knowing what to say if I wore cooler clothes that showed my arms.

    Today I am wearing 3/4 sleeves; I did have a work friend ask about the scarring, but I tried for humor and said, “Don’t worry about it! Objection, irrelevant, your honor!” jokingly. (I’m in legal).

    1. animaniactoo*

      OH! What coincidence that I started a post just above you and caught this here. I am so happy to hear this! You’re most welcome, I’m glad we could help. 8•)

      1. Anonmoose*

        Yeah, it did. I think humor helps a lot, plus not seeing the, ahem, full picture. I do hope to move to short sleeves at some point. I’m still kinda hot.

        1. Isben Takes Tea*

          YEAH you are! (But really, good luck, and I hope that you don’t feel any shame about your scars. I missed the original thread, but I’ll add that I have dear, wonderful friends who have self-harm scarring, and you would never ever think it to look at them based on where they are in their lives now. But I find it a really hopeful sign of resilience to other people who are struggling/have struggled, and you’re still a beautiful person.)

          1. Anonmoose*

            Thanks! When I got…er, close…to my now wife, I told her rather than let her see during sexytimes.

            This was over Facebook, and then she sent me some movie stills from the Half Blood Prince (Harry Potter) with the quote after Bill gets bitten by Greyback and is scarred. Basically, Mrs. Weasley assumes Fleur no longer wants to be with Bill because of it.

            “Do you theenk I would not weesh to marry him? Or per’aps you ‘oped? I am good looking enough for the both of us, I theenk! All these scars show is zat my ‘usband is brave!”

    3. zora.dee*

      Yes!!!!! I’m so glad the humor worked! I love this update so much.. good for you, and I hope you get to short sleeves soon and get to be much cooler and more comfortable.

  117. Allypopx*

    How important is culture fit?
    I’ve worked at my current job for four years and I understand the culture very well. I started working here when I was 20 and I was a very good fit at the time. As years have gone by, the culture has evolved, and I have grown as a professional, and I am not as comfortable here anymore.

    Now this company has treated me well. They hired me with minimal experience and no degree (still working on that last part, which comes up in a moment) and have given me steady promotions and raises every year. My benefits package is incredible, my hours are flexible to an extent. We’re talking about doing a big restructure next year that would kind of make me head of a department. I’m not sure I want the exact responsibilities involved, but I do like the idea of the raise and the opportunity to do more things that may fall in line with my future career paths. There are lots of positives to staying in this job.

    Negatives: I’m super burnt out. I’m exhausted. I’m disillusioned with a lot of what we do. I like my boss but I can’t stand a lot of the other people in my company, on his level or mine. The culture as it is now grates on me horribly. I feel trapped, because I’m still in school, and at the rate I can attend while working full time I probably will be for awhile. (Graduated high school in 2010 – economy was rough, chose job experience over college and am now going back.) I don’t think I’m overly hireable elsewhere, and while maybe that should make me more grateful for the company I’m at, it really just makes me feel stuck.

    My boss is looking for commitment in terms of years, and thinking of several long term projects centered around me staying. I haven’t decided one way or another if I am. I’m pretty unhappy, but there’s a lot of perks and opportunities here that are hard to turn my back on. Does anyone have advice? I’m feeling very torn.

    1. Dee*

      First of all, it doesn’t matter if your boss wants you to swear to stay there for years. Are they going to swear to not lay you off in that same amount of time? Regardless, that’s not just realistic of her.

      Second, it’s good that they’ve treated you well, but I assume you’ve also treated them well by doing your best at your job. You’re not obligated to stay with them forever because their benefits are good.

      You think you’re not employable somewhere else, but why not start exploring? It’ll give you an idea of what else is out there, and whether there’s another place you’d rather be working.

      1. Allypopx*

        FWIW yes, I do think I have pretty solid job security.

        This is still good advice though. I’ve had my eye on boards in my field but not much has shown up recently.

        1. Dee*

          I take your point, but I don’t think job security is the same as you saying, “I want to buy a house, so can you guarantee that I’ll be here for at least another five years?” That’s what it sounds like your boss is asking.

    2. Manders*

      Those are some pretty serious negatives. I think the burnout and disillusionment you’re feeling may go beyond culture fit. I think it’s time to job hunt, since it doesn’t sounds like it’s going to get better any time soon.

      While I don’t think managers should be selecting for culture fit, I do think that as an employee, it can impact your happiness at work. I’m in a place where I’m not quite the right fit culturally, and at times I feel like I’m lousy at small talk because I just can’t find a single shared point of reference with some of my coworkers. We don’t enjoy the same media, we don’t do the same work tasks, we don’t have similar lifestyles, we don’t place value on the same things, we don’t even celebrate holidays in similar ways. There’s only so much you can say about the weather, you know?

  118. FiveWheels*

    Question about paperless offices, brought on by an article earlier this week in which they were mentioned.

    Is anyone here paperless, and if so how does it work out? I see paperless as useful for archiving, but I can’t imagine scanning quickly through a file or comparing documents side by side without hard copy. I’m very comfortable for computers, but to me it just wouldn’t be practical to have everything on screen.

    Not to mention disaster preparedness – a virus, crash, power cut or any kind of IT issue could cripple a paperless office in a way that only destroying the building could cripple a paper office.

    1. Kelsey*

      Paperless only if you have multiple back-up systems, including cloud & a physical server, but always remember security.

      I hate paperless, but like having the accessibility of things on the go. I do print things out when things are sent to me. That’s just me.

    2. NW Mossy*

      My org is headed this direction, and it’s precisely because it’s better for disaster preparedness. A couple of years ago, we had an issue with a fire in an electrical substation directly adjacent to our offices, meaning that both buildings were without power for three days. No power means keycards don’t work, so no one could get to their physical workspace to access critical files. While less severe, we also have problems with being able to access our main offices during snowstorms as they tend to shut down the whole area when they happen.

      In response, we now have a company-wide initiative to digitize vital records so that they can be accessed remotely from anywhere, although we’ll continue to retain paper in off-site storage. We address IT stability by using remote servers that work like cloud-based services where you can switch to another server almost instantly if the one you’re using goes down for any reason.

      In answer to your question about scanning quickly, features like search within the document and bookmarked PDFs that allow you to easily jump to a specific section make that very easy and arguably faster than paper. Also, we solve side-by-side compare by having dual-monitor setups as standard for our employees, which makes Document A on Screen 1 and Document B on Screen 2 a snap – I use this daily to quality-check my team’s work.

      Bottom line, we can still print if we want to, but we don’t have to and we won’t use paper as our archive of record any longer. Once you get into a comfortable routine in handling digital documents, dealing with paper actually becomes kind of a pain in the butt.

      1. FiveWheels*

        It’s certainly easier to search keywords electronically, but I’m thinking of something like – a fifty page lease in which there’s a clause on a certain topic but I don’t know how it’s worded and can’t say for sure what the keywords are.

        Takes seconds to run my eye down each page because I can physically put my finger on it.

        Or say there’s a five year long file, and I know at some point the other side said something which contradicts their current story. Even if all their correspondence is scanned and searchable, open file – read letter – close file is much slower than flicking a page over.

        Of course I work somewhere in which work from home is only possible in s limited sense. I could draft a lease on my laptop, but correspondence needs to be on letterhead, correspondence needs to be hand signed, etc.

        As for getting locked out in a power cut – seems like a serious design flaw in the locks!

        1. Observer*

          The thing is that even if the doors failed “safe”, it might not be all that useful. For one thing, the doors have to be locked, which limits who can go in and out. Secondly, the building is basically unusable, so that means you need to get the paperwork out. Where are you taking it? Unless you can get another site that lets you house your entire staff, moving paper is not as useful as it sounds, and it’s hard to do quickly.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I made comments about what a disaster it was for us where I used to work (Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd.) in last week’s mention on AAM. Where I worked, all the software and storage was located “on the cloud” (actually at a facility about 300 miles away) and it depended on the internet being up. When the internet slows, access to the files slows.

      I would say, book extra time for scanning and labeling the files before they are moved into the computer files. Be extra careful about how you label the documents. We spent a lot of extra time converting forms to PDFs because they were often emailed to us in other formats which used up a lot more memory space.

      Yes, everything ended up on the cloud, but there was no saving of time or energy in processing the information.

    4. Observer*

      I don’t see totally paperless happening any time soon, but we’ve cut paper internally LOADS.

      I can see print out for file comparisons, sometimes. But other times, it’s easier to have the computer do it. Also, a large monitor, or two monitors helps. In any case, when I do printouts for this kind of reason, I don’t keep the printouts.

      In terms of virus, crash etc. Sure, but it’s much easier and more practical to protect yourself, than to protect yourself from loss of paper. And, there are so many ways to lose paper – and even more ways to lose access to paper, that you need to worry about that as much as worrying about electronic files.

  119. Jeni*

    A woman in my office called me a HALF PINT earlier this week. Loudly in the middle of an open floor plan. I get that she works in billing in a kind of segregated area and most of her coworkers are women but we work at an engineering firm. I am a lower level project manager who also supervises a growing group in our firm. Every day I compete for professional space with white men who are taller and usually older than me. I am short. Less than 5′ tall. It is a thing in my life. And sometimes wearing heels makes it worse because while it gives me a few inches, heels also make me walk slower. I cannot fathom that anyone would say that to a short man.

    Ugh. I had so so so many things this week. I really wish we had an AAM Facebook group. Being a manager is lonely. I miss going to lunch with my coworkers and complaining about this stuff. Now I am their supervisor and it feels inappropriate. I haven’t really formed strong relationships with the other managers yet.

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Could you pull her aside and say you knew it was meant in a friendly way, but you’d prefer not to be called any nicknames in the office? You wouldn’t even necessarily have to detail the reasons, because it’s perfectly reasonable to want to be called by your name in your own office.

    2. Temperance*

      I’m also a short woman, and I have to say that people are even worse to short men. I had a coworker who was my height, so 5’2″, and people were openly rude and dismissive of him, and even worse behind his back. “He wants that office because it makes him feel big.” etc.

      2. ZVA*

        As a tall (6′) woman who’s dated men much shorter than me, I can attest to this… People would say things like “Isn’t he a bit short for you?” all the time. The comments were so blatantly rude but people had ZERO qualms about making them to my face—and sometimes to his!

    3. SophieChotek*

      What….an over zealous fan of Little House on the Prarie? Only time I’ve ever heard someone call someone that is when Pa Ingalls calls Laura that. On the show its endearing…in real life, I can see…not so much!

          1. Jeni*

            I was thinking discussion group too. I can’t post stuff like that out into the universe as a comment on a page.

  120. Office Mercenary*

    Does anyone have any advice about applying to federal jobs? Those 12-page job postings are pretty intimidating! Are the number of years experience required absolute? Do you have any advice about applying for a security clearance, or advice more generally?

  121. Kelsey*

    As most say, “long time lurker!” ;) This blog (and comments) have got me through a lot this past year — I couldn’t be more thankful!

    My “question”:
    Q: Train or not?

    I’ve worked for a small company for almost 5 years. We had a recent shift in higher ups, which one that has been gunning for me from the start. (Thx to the blog for helping with the warning signs.) After my former boss was laid off (she was more thrilled than sad), they hired a new boss for me—which I was told would aligned to my position—but I received a demotion within the first week.

    As I’ve ran and created tons of procedures, while directing a trade show convention for several years of my job– I moved up throughout the years–they would like to me train him on how to run such: outlining the multiple projects that go into each convention. Due to an unfortunate event, I had to unexpectedly take time off, a thing that has never happened in the past. While the higher up claimed to understand & relate, he did not stay true to that while on a meeting with my boss and myself; thus, I became withdrawn and unmotivated due to being micromanaged at a level where I would have to explain why I’m using company time to check-in with a client that we aren’t focusing on right now. (…Keeping up relations…)

    I’ve been asked to complete my assignments and leave by a certain date with a chance of staying on. One of those assignments is to train my new boss in a multilayer project that I’ve had experience in previously to my company (he has not) and had a chance to grow while working with them—which includes secrets of why/how I can manage great deals with vendors/clients that I’ve formed close professional relationships with. I will go up and beyond, but signs show I am going to leave regardless of outcome. Should I train the new employee while introducing him to all the contacts?

    I need help. I know the proper thing to do, but I also want to give a eff you. I cannot fully burn this bridge.

    1. CAA*

      Take the high road and train the new guy. As long as you continue to accept a salary from them, you owe it to them (and to yourself) to do the work they’re paying you for. Right now that includes training the awful boss.

      I’m sorry, I know it sucks, but hang in there and maintain your professionalism so you can walk out with your head held high on the date they already gave you.

  122. Raddest*

    Yesterday we had a company photo shoot, where clients were invited but it was mandatory for all the employees.

    It wasn’t bad, actually–everyone got out a half-hour early, the picture was taken, and then you were allowed to stay and mingle and have free food and free booze.

    Except for an incident while we were all getting into position: my coworker friend and I, both young women, standing together, and an older guy I’ve never seen before in my life oozes in between us and puts his arms around our waists, saying, “I’ll stand between these two beautiful ladies, I think.”

    We freeze and saynothing. Eventually he asks if he’s embarrassing me. “I’ll live,” I say, through gritted teeth. (Client, all right? And I’m not very confrontational.)

    The clients are called to move to the front. “Oh no,” chuckles Old Skeeze. He does catch on we aren’t going to snuggle and removes his arms. He asks what each of us do, and we give him terse responses. At no point does he offer his name or ask for ours.

    Finally the clients are told to leave so they can take the employee-only photo. Old Skeeze leaves. The photo is taken.

    Then, I spy the opportunity I’d been hoping for: Old Skeeze is talking with the CEO, beer in hand. I dart over real quick and, ignoring him entirely, say, “Hey, Dad, I gotta take off early to run errands, I hope you have a good day.”

    Out the corner of my eye, I watch Old Skeeze freeze mid-gesture as CEO Dad smiles and wishes me well.

    At some point this weekend, I’ll also ask Dad if he can let that entitled jackass know that sliding your arm around a total stranger’s waist is not an okay greeting. Dad is not shy and the client can’t just ‘take his business elsewhere’. I suspect the client will be much more polite of women’s personal space on future visits.

    5. Menacia*

      Yes, it’s a good story, but you need to speak up (client or no) if something someone does makes you uncomfortable. Dad is not always going to be around to defend you. I don’t mean this to sound harsh if it does, just speaking honestly.

      1. Raddest*

        I recognize that I’m not always going to have my dad around to help me. Such as when I had a subway commute for three years and had strangers try to touch my hair, my hips, or my ass (it was early in the morning/late at night, security wasn’t around much, and if I made a scene I was on my own) or when I worked retail and had men 60+ years old tell me I was so cute and touch my arm way too much (I was hourly plus commissions, and commissions let me eat AND pay rent).

        A total stranger put his arm around me. I froze because I whenever I’ve been objectified by strangers, I haven’t been in a position to safely speak up. For once, I was in a position to cause this person shame AND possibly some personal/professional repercussions at little to no cost to myself. Believe me, I’m aware that’s lucky.

    8. Dot Warner*

      HAHAHA!!! I love it when d-bags get their comeuppance! Please let us know how your dad handled the situation. :)

  123. Calcipher*

    Tips for taking lunch during demanding work hours? There are some days I’m glued to my desk I don’t stand up from the moment I arrive until I leave. We are severely understaffed and I am overseeing 3 student workers who also need to take lunch and mine is often sacrificed to make sure someone is covering the department at all times.

    I am hourly and my position is budgeted so I cannot receive overtime despite working at least 2-3 additional hours a week. I’m told to take them off the next week by leaving early or taking an extended lunch but it’s a domino effect. I’m up to 8 comp. hours this week and I’d rather take a lunch and not gather time. Plus, I work in a technical field and without eating for 10 hours I lose focus.

    1. Q*

      Due to deadlines at my job, I often am not free to get up and walk around until 3pm. I bring lunch and eat at my desk around 12:30 but don’t actually go to lunch until 3 (or later because people love to schedule meetings at 3). So, I may take my lunch from 3:30-4:30 even though I’m done at 5pm.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      If you’re hourly, and they can’t budget for your overtime, you (and more importantly, they) just have to deal with things not getting done.

      You are hourly. Remember that.

      Work the number of hours you’re allowed to work, and take lunch—even if it’s only 30 minutes or 20 minutes. So if they budget you for 8 hours a day, work from 8 am to noon. Take lunch from noon to 12:30, and then work from 12:30 to 4:30pm. Then go home.

      If things aren’t done by 4:30, they’re not done. If your manager complains about things not being done at 4:30pm, ask if you’re allowed to work overtime hours to get things done.

      Do not work without being compensated.

      1. Rebecca*

        I second, third, fourth, fifth…this…right into infinity. TAKE YOUR BREAKS! Do not work for free. Plus, getting up and walking away, doing something else, getting some fresh air, etc. is great for your brain power.

    3. Observer*

      Unless you are federal, where the rules are different, comp time is actually illegal. At this point, let your boss(es) know that you are not planning to accrue more comp time. You might want to point out that it puts the organization at legal (significant) risk.

      Eat at your desk if, you need to. Even if you don’t take a formal lunch, that really helps.

    1. Calcipher*

      Exercise. I was in the best shape of my life after my layoff because I focused my downtime on ME, which tremendously improved my mental health.

    2. Leatherwings*

      In the same situation now AGAIN (happened last year too). I’ll echo Calcipher and say exercise. I go to the gym each morning and it gets me moving and prevents me from watching tv or just laying in bed miserable.

      I also structure my day so I’m doing “work” (applying to shit) for a certain number of hours plus do a chore like laundry or meal prep. Then it feels like I have a purpose when I get up each day, which helps. I know it’s not possible for every industry, but I make sure I do at least one thing that will help my job search each day.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Self-care. I was unexpectedly unemployed for a month after I quit a job without having a set start date for my new position.

      I made sure to stay on top of cleaning my apartment, which ALWAYS makes me feel better. I spent time job-hunting (in case the new job fell through; it didn’t!) for peace of mind. And because the weather was lovely at that time of year, I gave myself permission to go to the pool and lay in the sun when nobody else was around. The vitamin D honestly is what kept me from sinking into depression!

    4. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      Keep a “work schedule” during your job search. I was frantic with shame and worry during my unemployment, and I could not turn it off. I job searched at all hours, bleary-eyed and frantically combing job boards in the wee hours. I neglected laundry, ignored household necessities, and generally became a nightmare to live with.

      I highly recommend setting up a standard work day for yourself during which you job search, write cover letters, and the like–then stop when that time period is over for the day.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I do volunteer work at my local library. I was already a “Friend of the Library,” and they know me. I do an hour every day. Sometimes it is simple things like “shelf reading” (making sure books are in alphabetical order on the shelves) or straightening the CDs, DVDs or Books-On-Tape. It takes just a certain amount of concentration, it’s not boring, but not stressful either and I get into a sort of “zen” state.

      Sometimes I help library users. Often, I help out in the used bookstore run by the Friends of the Library to raise money for library funds.

      And yes, exercise. I walk to the library.

    7. Dot Warner*

      Find a new hobby or learn something new. I got some cheap used books and starting learning German.

  125. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    I’ve been shortlisted for a promotion at work in a different department. However, since interviewing for the position, my manager has announced a promotional opportunity in my own department that I am much, much more interested in. However, that position may not be posted for a few weeks, and the other department is looking to fill their role ASAP. If I am offered the position in the other department I don’t know that I would take it with this other opportunity on the horizon, and the shortlisting involves a second interview with a big mucky muck from corporate. Am I wasting their time by continuing the interview process? And complicating this is that if I do continue, get offered the position, turn it down and then the promotion in my own department falls through, I know I’m going to be kicking myself. I’m so torn about all of this and unfortunately my direct supervisor’s hand are tied and can’t move up the posting in my own department.

  126. Stellaaaaa*

    Does anyone have any advice for transitioning from a job at a small business to a more stable bigger company? I’m tired of these fly-by-night startups and the constant sense that they’re running out of work for me. I just don’t know how to go about finding bigger companies and applying. Where do they post their job listings? In my area, craigslist and indeed are full of small businesses, part-time stuff, and “internships.”

    1. CAA*

      I’ve always had the best luck applying directly on the companies’ websites. Google “list of companies headquartered in [city x]” and then just start looking for their websites and applying. Make sure to look them up on LinkedIn also to see if you know anyone there who might be able to recommend you.

  127. New Bee*

    Any advice for communicating with folks about my maternity leave? Per doctor’s orders I need to stop working earlier than expected, and I want to make sure I cover everything in my leave email to my team and some outside people I work with regularly. I’m using an example a colleague shared with me, so I know to include: who to contact in my absence; where to find my docs, manuals, etc.; and what to expect from my temp (I’m largely an individual contributor who does design work, and my temp is covering part of that).

    My manager and I both feel good about my leave plan (and we knew me leaving earlier was a possibility so we’ve been preparing), but our larger team is really disorganized due to some ineffective management and weak/nonexistent planning. Some of the people on our team also struggle with respecting work/life boundaries, which has contributed to turnover, so I’m trying to figure out a tactful way to basically say “don’t contact me.” We use (and get reimbursed for) our personal phones at work, and I want to lay it out now so I have carte blanche to ignore texts while I’m gone.

    I have only one other coworker who has a kid, and he said people tried to contact him while he was out under the guise of asking how his kid was doing! I’ve been trying to redirect folks who come to me for things they should be asking their manager, but she’s new and already has a rep for throwing folks under the bus for refusing to do her job for her.

    Tl;dr: How do I politely let folks know that they shouldn’t be reaching out to me for any reason while I’m on leave?

    1. burnout*

      “While I’m out on Maternity Leave, I intend to completely disconnect from work and focus on preparing for the baby. So, if you email/text/call me, don’t be surprised if I don’t respond.” and/or refer them to the person who is taking on your duties while you’re gone.

      And then…. don’t respond to their email/text/call because IF you do…. you are just setting the stage for them to keep contacting you.

      It’s less about their boundaries and more about yours, IMO.

      1. New Bee*

        Thank you; this wording is perfect! I have really strong boundaries, but I’m an outlier on staff, so it’s as much for setting my manager and immediate teammates up to resist guilt trips (one of the things I really dislike about the way the larger team operates) as it is to C(my)A.

    2. NW Mossy*

      “I won’t be available during my leave, so here are your resources for assistance in my absence.” From there, all you need to do is actually not be available – don’t respond unless it meets your response criteria, which is probably something like your boss contacting you about something that is actually an emergency and truly requires your input.

      I just got back from maternity leave myself and said very plainly to pretty much everyone that I wouldn’t be responding to any inquiries, and they understood and respected that. My boss did call a couple of times, but solely to check in, find out how the baby was doing, and confirm my return to work. We have a warm relationship and I trust her entirely not to overstep into asking me to do heavy lifting work-wise. No one else had contact info for me beyond my work email and cell number, so just keeping those devices off did the trick.

  128. jaxon*

    I have experience in many different aspects of my industry within the nonprofit world. This industry is very siloed, with people tending to have one specific expertise. My broad experience has now led to me being considered for positions as executive director at other orgs.

    This is great because my current job is an absolute nightmare and I am increasingly desperate to get out.

    The opportunities at other orgs are moving so slowly, and at least one org has already decided to pass on me. Recently a job opened up at my current org in a different department, one of the only areas I don’t have direct experience with. The pay and title would be a rather large step backward but it’s doable, and I am willing to consider it an investment in my career.

    Would it be a mistake to pursue a job at the bottom of the totem pole when I am being considered (but have yet to be hired) to actually RUN other organizations? I am really confused about the best thing to do here. Staying in my current job much longer is not an option.

    1. Allypopx*

      Does your current job being a nightmare have anything to do with the organization as opposed to just your specific duties? Would moving to another department really make that big a difference?

      If you’re in a place where you can realistically move forward with your career, it’s probably not a great idea to move backwards. But that’s my opinion. If the experience is really worth it to you, then weigh all your options. But moving backwards can also be difficult for your personal morale, even though you can make it sound logically appealing now.

      1. jaxon*

        My current job being a nightmare is because of my department, and because of my predecessor, and lots of other reasons that are not directly about the org itself. I can realistically move forward with my career but I am not in retail banking, I’m in a very specialized industry and moving forward in my career will mean moving cities etc. Jobs only come along once in a great while. I can’t keep doing my current job for another 6 or 9 or 18 or 24 months until I finally get an offer for a job that will actually be a step up into what I want.

        My personal morale is in tatters right now and my current job has me questioning my qualifications, skills, and sanity. I know it’s never good to make a move out of desperation, which is why I am weighing this so carefully. The work of the other department interests me WAY more than my current work, and I think my lack of experience in this other area is what sunk my chances with the one job I have already been turned down for.

        1. Allypopx*

          It sounds like your current job is really a situation you need to escape. If you think the lower level job will give you really necessary experience, and you’re willing to take the hit in title and pay, it’s definitely a path worth pursuing. I wouldn’t stop applying to ED jobs in the meantime though – your current qualifications might work better in a different organization.

  129. Sally Sparrow*

    I am thinking of having a conversation with my supervisor about sometimes working from home if I don’t feel well – if the work is computer-based. Obviously, I cannot run printouts while I’m at home and bring them to people but that isn’t a huge part of my job.

    My issue is that this doesn’t seem to be a “thing” in my department outside of the officers (of which I am not). I’ve overheard a conversation with a CW (on my level and in my department) about how its not fair that she can’t work from home, whereas a CW (our level and in another department) can. I’ve also never seen or known someone on my level in my department to do that and I’m also fairly new (a year) into this job.

    Since then, we’ve had some personnel changes and I report to new a supervisor. Would it be worth it to broach the subject? Does it matter that we have a decent leave policy as it stands? Or that I am rarely sick (knock on wood) so I’m not concerned about going through my time?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Well, since you don’t have a long-standing illness, I’m not sure that this is a conversation you even need to have. But maybe you could casually bring it up while meeting with your new supervisor. Something like:

      “What are your expectations for sick time? I don’t get sick often, and when I do it’s usually just a cold. I’d hate to bring that into the office, so what are your thoughts on me working from home in those instances?”

  130. Dawn*

    Shoutout to everyone trying to file their EEO-1 today! May your certifications be approved on the first try with no issues :)

    1. KiteFlier*

      I had to request an extension! I was all set to submit but we acquired a company earlier this year who haven’t filed before (and that is questionable) so I now need to include them! Hopefully they all report ASAP!

  131. Libretta*

    I work in an academic/research field, and my org just recruited a married couple. It is common for my field to recruit a couple together if they are both qualified and competent, which as far as I can tell, they both are. Their work overlaps heavily but they each received start-up funding packages and are two separate entities. My issue is that I am divvying up lab space and equipment, and the husband continues to make decisions that affect both of them. He keeps telling me they can share equipment or his wife can take one and him the other and that they will keep it fluid. This would be fine if she was part of the conversation, but I have never actually spoken to her. She is often out of the office (also normal for faculty). I am conflicted as I would not generally let one faculty member make decisions for another regarding space and equipment (which are limited and in great demand). Both faculty members should agree, and he is just hand waving it away. I talked to my supervisor (a faculty member), and she is also conflicted. I think they are letting him make the decisions as long as she doesn’t object. The feminist in me is cringing every time I talk to them about it, and these talks will continue for a while. Anyway, not sure if I need advice or not but I need to vent. This is gross.

    1. Allypopx*

      That is definitely gross. I know you’re not sure you need advice, but honestly if you wouldn’t tolerate it from other faculty, I wouldn’t tolerate it from them. They shouldn’t be treated differently because they’re a couple.

      Then again that’s a business standpoint. I know academia can be a strange and confusing world.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I would push back and simply say “I need her confirmation on that please. I want to make sure there are no misunderstandings and both employees have what they need.”

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yes this was my thought. Even a simple email from her like – we’ve talked about it all at home and he can decide might relieve your mind; I can understand though, if a lot of this is “in the moment” a blanket “it’s all okay with me” would be helpful

    4. Newby*

      It is possible that they have simply worked together long enough that he already knows what set up she needs and is trying to be efficient. She should definitely be looped into the conversation and have to agree before anything is done, but it isn’t necessarily sexist (although it could be). If she is actually so busy that you cannot track her down that seems like the more likely cause than the fact that she is a woman.

    5. Libretta*

      Thanks everyone, I will probably just drop a “that all sounds good, I’ll just confirm with X, and go from there…” Way better than trying to make a point about something that may or may not be there.

  132. TempAnon*

    Going anonymous for this one…

    Over the past few months my manager has invited/strongly encouraged me to leave early on various Fridays–often when she and/or my office mate will already be leaving early or out of office. We’re in higher ed and I think this stems in part from her increasing convinction that we don’t need to be available for full hours all summer long (it’s not uncommon for universities to close early on summer Friday’s, but we definitely don’t). Over the summer I took advantage of this on a few occasions, but I still felt weird about it (and sometimes felt I had too much work to do; our summers are quiet but work never really ends). I assumed this offer would just go away once the academic year resumed.

    Well, she threw it out there again for today. I actually can’t leave anyway, because I have an obligation on campus, but I’m really conflicted on how to handle this going forward. Our team is public facing — 100% coverage is not essential, but let’s just say that students should reasonably expect to locate one of us during normal business hours, at least during the academic year. My feeling is that when the other two are gone I ought more than ever to be here. This intersects with the fact that, 3 weeks ago, she left early on a Friday and her boss showed up looking for her (obviously that’s between the two of them, but it makes me concerned about whether this is approved). It was very awkward.
    We’re also trying to get approval to fill an empty slot on our team which is desperately needed, and I can’t imagine us seemingly having leisure to vanish on Fridays will help. I’m exempt and certainly work enough extra hours to unofficially “comp” leaving early, but the official expectation is that we hit a minimum of 40 hours weekly.

    On the other hand, she’s, well, the boss. I’m not privy to arrangements between her and her boss, of course. She places a real priority on work-life balance and it usually comes up as something I need to improve on, so I worry that it looks bad if I decline to leave early. But I’m worried abot whether I should be following her on this given the coverage and other issues. I am young but have connections to the institution and am hoping to finish out my career here, and she probably will move on much sooner — so I don’t want to do anything to risk my job.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I am also a young employee in higher ed. My boss is 100% encouraging if I need to leave early on Fridays (today I need to go to the dentist). She works like a dog and regularly takes Fridays off to spend time with family. If your boss is giving you the option, and if you are okay with coverage at work, take her up on that offer!

      Your boss sounds wonderful; she genuinely cares about your work-life balance, and I’m sure part of her generosity is because she likes and trusts you as an employee.

    2. Mazzy*

      Can you just say “no thanks” and stay? I’m having the same thing now, I talk about lots of work and needing help one day, then they arrange us leaving early the next. I appreciate the gesture, but the work is still there, and if I’m going somewhere after work and you’re just giving me three hours in the same area of unplanned free time, I’m probably not going to find anything worthwhile to do anyway.

  133. Book and a Cuppa*

    Whenever one of my coworkers makes a mistake, my manager corrects him or her by sending an email to our entire staff. I always feel like I’m being scolded for things I didn’t do. I understand that she may not always know who is responsible for certain errors or that she thinks that if one person is doing it wrong, then others may be doing it wrong, too. I still don’t like it. Am I too defensive? Should I just decide those emails don’t apply to me, and not let it bother me?

    1. Allypopx*

      Don’t let it bother you. It’s a very normal way to handle that, for the reasons you listed above (if she’s calling out individuals publicly that’s not as cool, that should be done privately. But that doesn’t seem to be what you’re referring to).

      I wouldn’t just decide the emails don’t apply to you, because the logic of “if one person is making this mistake other people might be making this mistake too” is very, very reasonable, and it could very well apply to you even if you aren’t consciously aware of it. I would take the feedback, examine your own habits, see if you can use the corrections to improve, and then at that point move on. But don’t take it super personally and don’t dismiss it out of hand.

    2. Rebecca*

      Just ignore it, and be glad it’s an email and not a 15 or 30 minute group blathering session. My “manager” likes to call in the entire staff when one person isn’t doing something correctly, and go over the tedious details one by one, and it is a huge time waster. We have asked her to please address it with that one person, but she won’t, saying she doesn’t want that person to feel bad by singling them out. So, she wastes 15 people’s time, and the person who is doing the process wrong always thinks “it’s not me”, so lather rinse and repeat a few months later with the same issue.

  134. PM-NYC*

    I’m a Project Manager in NYC and looking for a new job. I’m currently at a web design firm and was previously at a lease admin company. I don’t have a PM certification, have just learned on the job. Long term, I would like to possibly move into more of an IT/Software PM job, as it seems like there’s more money in that field. Any advice on how to gain more experience in the IT side of things to make myself a better candidate for jobs in that field? I’m not sure how much technical knowledge I would need and the best way to get that knowledge on my own.

    Also, any advice on searching for a PM job in NYC generally would be great.

    1. CAA*

      I’d highly recommend getting the PMP certification and/or the PMI-ACP (Agile Certified Practitioner). Most software/IT PM jobs seem to list this as a requirement, and if you end up anywhere that you’re working on client projects, a lot of them will want a cert. Plus, since you’re weak on the technical skills, you will need really solid PM skills to succeed, so having some training is a good thing.

      In your current position, do you guys only do design and then hand that off for implementation by someone else? Or is there a dev group that actually writes code and manages deployments? If you can get involved with the dev and deployment side of some projects, that would be a basic introduction to this type of work.

      1. PM-NYC*

        We contract out to an external dev team. So I communicate with our developers a lot, and will take a look at versions of projects for anything noticeably off/malfunctioning, but I don’t do any coding myself and a lot of the QA process is between our designers and the external dev team, as there’s obviously a lot of things I’m not able to catch due to not being a designer. Hope that clarifies.

  135. BambooFlower*

    Is it normal practice for a manager to announce to all staff that they keep a calendar of when any staff members have taken leave? It seems like the goal is so that there’s not several people out during the same time period but, I am a new teacher in a public school and it seems strange since as a teacher we can get substitutes to cover our classes.
    Also, no one can see this calendar other than the manager. We were just informed it exist.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Eh, I worked in a school and when multiple teachers were out the same day the school seemed to turn to chaos. I don’t know how paying subs works either, does the school have to do that? It might make sense for budgeting purposes that way.

      Is it possible the calendar is just for his use tracking leave, rather than making sure people aren’t out the same day?

      1. BambooFlower*

        It seems to be a little of both, since it was explained to us a part of their method not to approve too much leave per grade.

    2. Allypopx*

      That’s a pretty normal practice. They probably want to manage the costs of substitutes and it’s also useful to document when people are going to be out so she knows who is around and when. Doesn’t seem strange to me.

      1. BambooFlower*

        Glad to know it’s not strange. A few of my senior colleagues have been grumbling about it recently and it made me worry.

  136. Yeah, No*

    I accepted a job offer yesterday after looking for six months (our company went through a merger earlier this year & our office will be closing at some point in the next couple of years – this is a HUGE relief!). I emailed my current boss to let him know – he is requesting that I give them four weeks notice (meaning, my last day would be October 28th) because I have over a week’s worth of vacation time I either have to use or lose (they do not pay out for it). So, he wants me to work for three & take a week of vacation in the middle. I think this is unreasonable. I had initially told the hiring manager at the new job that I could start on October 24th & I intend on sticking to that. I plan on working for two weeks & taking the last week as paid time off before starting the new job. Am I out of line here? I thought two weeks was professional courtesy… As it stands I’m still going to lose 3+ days of vacation time even if I take a week off during the notice period.

    FWIW he said he’d never had to deal with someone resigning before & I have never resigned from anywhere before (I worked for the same company for 11+ years prior to being laid off, before I started working at my current job) so I don’t really know the protocol here. He is OOO today so I have not seen his response to my email stating that if at all possible, I’d like to keep my last day at October 21st. I don’t want him to be mad but I don’t want to be steamrolled or guilted into staying, either.

    1. fposte*

      It’s not uncommon to refuse leave during your notice period entirely; they’re not required to allow you to count your last week as vacation if you’re not working there. However, if you want a week off in between, you can certainly give a shorter notice period.

      1. WorkerBee 23*

        Yeah, I get that they don’t have to let me take vacation. It just sucks because it is MY vacation time that I earned, & if I *don’t* use it, it’s gone. I doubt I’ll be taking any time off once I start my new job as the person who is leaving the position will only be there through early December (she’s retiring) so I’ll need to soak up all of the knowledge while I can! I might do that, then. Work next week, take the following week off, then work the last week in-office. Or maybe I’ll take ALL of my accrued vacation & only work the last 2 days in the office. Mua-ha-ha! (That was my evil laugh.)

        1. WorkerBee 23*

          Oops, forgot to change my commenting name back. I am dopey from the excitement of finally accepting a GOOD offer!

        2. fposte*

          I was kind of hinting at using the extra courtesy of a four-week notice for some leverage in choosing when to use the vacation (though I think the last week is a non-starter and would be most places). But be aware that your current workplace is free to accept your notice early, so unless you’re prepared for an unpaid four week vacation, don’t piss them off too much.

        3. AdAgencyChick*

          This is why it’s safer to ask for the week off, and resign the day you get back. I have never worked anywhere that would allow leave to be used after an employee resigned.

          1. WorkerBee 23*

            I couldn’t do that – my boss is in another state & he’s coming in next week. Timing prevented me from doing this very thing, I had thought about it!

    2. Murphy*

      Unless they have a policy that dictates otherwise, two weeks should be plenty, and they shouldn’t be able to force you to stay later than that.

      1. WorkerBee 23*

        There’s no such policy. We had a girl on my team (several years ago) who gave 2 weeks & took the 2nd week as vacation!

  137. Lady Blerd*

    Sigh, my student intern has decided to seek out a job in his field of study and is now studying part time. Doing so disqualifies him from our work-study program and WAAAH, I lose him as an underling. He was a great asset, in fact I very happily told him that I’d be more than happy to recommend him to any future employer. As the cliché goes, you don’t know what you have until you lose it.

    But that got me to draft a proposal to my boss to hire part-time help to help up with some of our tasks, funny thing was when I googled how to word my proposal, the first link was an old AAM article. But turns out I had pretty much figured out what to say and how to put it together but it was nice to have confirmation that I was doing it right.

    1. SeekingBetter*

      So nice to hear that you had a great student intern. He also probably really appreciates the fact you told him about being such a great asset to your team. AAM articles are usually the first ones that pop up whenever I google a question, too!

  138. Annby*

    Serious question: who applies to jobs that have ads that start with “hooks” like this one:

    “We might be able to work together if… the only time you look forward to a red light is when you’re trying to finish a text. If you think there’s no worse feeling than that millisecond you’re sure you are going to die after leaning your chair back a little too far. If as a driver you hate pedestrians, and as a pedestrian you hate drivers, but no matter what the mode of transportation, you always hate cyclists.”

    I wish I was making this up, but I’m not.

    1. fposte*

      People who have little experience and/or little choice. I don’t even get these examples. It’s not like the dull mass of the world looks forward to red lights, and it sounds like they’re saying “If you have experience with actual physical risk, we’re not for you.”

    5. Joanna*

      Sometimes these are from tech startups drunk on their own alleged awesomeness, but more often than not these seem to be companies after cheap, usually young labour for terrible jobs. The rambling is an attempt to distract people from the fact that the ad says very little about the actual substance of the work because it’s a terrible job and they want people who don’t really care what they’re doing as long as they make some money. Around here such ads are often to be one of those charity collectors who harasses people walking through city centres to donate.

    6. Chaordic One*

      Years ago I remember always seeing an advertisement that read:

      “I’m looking for five people who I can work to death.”

      It never said what the job was. I never responded, but I’ve always been just a bit curious. Maybe some telemarketing boiler room?

    7. Canadian Natasha*

      So they’re looking for people who will soon be facing charges in traffic court? O_o

  139. Salarywoes*

    OK, I think I need a little perspective with my salary raise. I feel a little upset at how low it is, even though it was (according to my manager) one of the highest percentage raises in the team. I got a 4%, which works out to £30-ish more per month. It’s an improvement! – but considering how glowing his feedback was its a bit of a kick in the teeth.

    Market rate for my job is about £1500- £6000 per year more than I make, and with the company making a big song and dance about salary reviews and taking employees concerns about pay into consideration I was expecting maybe £1000 increase, which would have been around a 6.5% raise but closer to the bottom rung of what I’d potentially earn elsewhere. And that sounds like a silly high percentage, so maybe I should just be grateful for what I got?

    Is it worth pushing for more on Monday? I can show measurable achievement and increasing responsibility, so I’m not worried about proving I deserve it, just how it looks with asking for even more.

    1. Manders*

      Oh wow, it sounds like pushing for a raise with this company would be like pulling teeth. If I were you, I’d start thinking about whether this is a place worth staying in long term, since this sounds like it’s always going to be an issue and the disparity between your market rate and your salary is only going to get worse as you become more valuable.

      So yeah, push for more, because that’s ridiculous. But start thinking about your exit strategy, because I don’t think this is going to be a one time problem.

  140. overcaffeinatedqueer*

    So I have some anxiety and right now my brain is convinced I got tuberculosis from work.

    Reasons: people often come in sick (no PTO), and as entry level lawyers, often do pro bono work with those in jail/immigration detention.

    TB is endemic in even US prisons.

    And Patient Zero coworker does that work too, and is coughing like a seal.

    And now I have the whatever it is- coughing, chills, chest pain.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Oh dear. Please go to the doctor ASAP, and get a flu shot if you haven’t already once you’re well enough (if this turns out to not be the flu).

      1. overcaffeinatedqueer*

        I figured that much out- but I’m asking myself if it’s worth shelling out for a TB test.

        2. M*

          Go get the test. My mom had six bouts of pneumonia over eight months that wouldn’t respond to antibiotics or rest, all confirmed by chest X-ray. Her doctor assumed she was just spending too much time with the grandkids. It turned out she had contagious TB the entire time without any risk factors.

          It’s probably not TB but why risk it? And I hope you feel better soon.

          1. Observer*

            Her doctor is an idiot. One case, nothing to see. Two cases, hm. At three cases, he should have been looking hard. Since when does spending time with the grandkids cause repeated bouts of pneumonia?!

            For it to take SIX bouts for him to look further is malpractice. (I don’t know if it meets the legal standard, but it meets the practical definition.

            But, that doesn’t mean that the symptoms and circumstances described warrant TB testing.

        3. Observer*

          Highly unlikely. See a doctor.

          Of course, if it turns out that there is a good reason to suspect TB in your case, your doctor prescribes the test. Then if you have insurance, it should be covered, even if it’s lousy insurance.

    4. Pwyll*

      Not sure where you’re located, but a TON of us in Massachusetts have come down with coughing, chills, chest congestion, etc. recently. Took me about a week to get through it, my boss has been struggling for a few weeks now. Our Doctors all said it wasn’t anything serious (i.e. not TB) and we’re all getting better. Boss was on an antibiotic.

      Go see a Doctor! But it’s probably not TB.

    5. Dot Warner*

      Yikes! Get to the doctor!

      On the anxiety about TB, I understand how you feel; I’m a healthcare professional and thought I was exposed once (turned out to be a false alarm, thank heaven). It’s scary as hell, but hopefully the doctor will be able to set your mind at ease.

    6. Soupspoon McGee*

      I work in health care, and we’ve already seen several cases of a virus with cough (could be flu). That’s probably what you have. Have you been exposed to someone diagnosed with TB? Do you have a fever and night sweats? If so, that could still be the flu or one of zillions of viruses, but those are also signs of TB. Either way, don’t panic. If your cough doesn’t go away after a week (or if you have a fever). I think insurance covers TB tests, and if you regularly work with a population known to be infected, your doc should be testing you regularly anyway.

  141. SophieChotek*

    What do you do when your title is inflated?
    I know there have been several letter writers who have written in when they feel their title understates their value – i.e. they manage several people but are called an “associate” or some equally obscure title

    But what about the opposite? My title is something like “Chief Communications Officer”…but there is really just me wearing tons of hats, managing no one, and…on many days, I feel like I don’t do that great of a job, which is why I am looking for a new job….

    Any suggestions? I don’t want to downplay my abilities, but on the other hand, I don’t want my resume to get to HR and have then think “She won’t be happy as a lowly entry level associate” – I already have enough of that thanks to useless grad degrees….

    Thanks!

    1. Mirilla*

      I think I’m having this same problem. My title and my salary are nowhere near each other. I’m starting to think I should leave it off my resume altogether and use something more generic. I am very underpaid for what I do as it is.

      My title has manager in it but I don’t manage people, just one aspect of the business *which happens to be very important.

  142. Cass*

    I think a job offer may be coming soon, (yay!) in large part to Alison’s fantastic advice.

    If I’m offered the position, I’m planning on asking for a day or two to think it over. (I’d like to mention it to my boss – there’s a possibility of a counter offer. I’m more open to it than Alison usually suggests because in my case, an offer from my current work would be a promotion to full time from part time. The new job offer would also be full time.)

    I didn’t see anything in the archives – do you do salary negotiations and then say you need a few days to think it over? I’m just trying to prepare myself because I’ll be very excited if I get an offer so I want to remain level-headed.

    Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

    1. Colette*

      I would probably think first, negotiate second. I’d want to be prepared to say yes if they agree to a higher salary (but perhaps think again if they don’t)- I certainly wouldn’t want to go off for a long period of time after the fact.

    2. Sophie*

      Yes, ask them for a few days to think it over and send a follow up email re-stating your thanks for the offer and tell them when you will expect to give this decision (as I learnt upthread with my own question!)

  143. Lemon Zinger*

    Last week I asked for advice on professional workplace dress. I went to Nordstrom Rack and found several great pieces– thank you to everyone for your help! Still have a long ways to go, especially in the shoe department… but it’s progress!

    One of my friends (who works at the same company as my SO) has been looking to escape that industry for a while, and I recommended him for a position in my office. He did well in the first few interviews and may receive an offer next week! Fingers crossed– he would be a huge asset to our team and he brings prior knowledge with him, so him coming on board would be amazing. Especially since so many people are quitting at the worst possible time of year…

    1. zora.dee*

      Shoes are a little easier to buy online, in my opinion. Try DSW, Amazon, Zappos. You get free returns. And I looovvee Nordstrom Rack.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I have a hard-to-fit shoe size and I’ve had good luck at OnlineShoes.com and Shoebuy.com.

        They seem to always be emailing me discount codes and while they usually have the same shoes as Zappos, they end up being a bit lower-priced. I used to have good luck at Nordstroms.com, but they don’t seem to carry as many shoes in my hard-to-fit size.

  144. Loopy*

    I need a kick in the pants today.

    I’m covering a maternity leave and will probably be finished just before Christmas. There is only the slimmest of slim chance that this will ever turn into a permanent position. The closer it gets to the person coming back, the more depressed I get. No matter how well I do or how hard I work, this still won’t be my job. Added to which, the person I’m covering for is not liked by the majority of the office, so I’m “losing” the job to someone people don’t even want to work with! So I’m doing a fricking amazing job, I’m genuinely liked by the people I work with and in the end, I won’t even get a helpful reference out of this place because their policy is for HR to only confirm dates and positions.

    It’s Friday afternoon and I’m sitting on Ask a Manager, because sometimes I just couldn’t be bothered when I’m not going to get anything out of this except a good bye card.

    1. Katie the Senual Wristed Fed*

      awww that’s rough. But honestly, you never know. There could come a point in a year or so where the position is open, or a similar one opens, and they remember how good you are. Can you talk to someone there about any options for permanent positions in the company?

    2. JPlummer*

      Maybe not a kick in the pants, more of a reality check.

      ‘… so I’m “losing” the job to someone people don’t even want to work with!’

      You’re not “losing” a job. It was never yours. Doesn’t matter who’s more popular–you or Maternity Leave Lady. It’s her job. If you enjoy the work and your co-workers, then continue doing a fricking amazing job, avoid getting all hang-doggy about your approaching end date and graciously accept the good bye card. And observe the campsite rule. Leave Maternity Lady’s desk organized and uncluttered, and leave her a detailed memo about what you did in her absence, and what was left undone. You might not get anything tangible out of this job, but you will almost certainly secure a place of honor on the company’s List of Great Temporary Employees. That’s worth something, no?

      Temping/contract work involves a lot of hellos and good-byes, some crappy jobs, some exceptional ones. The challenge is to maintain your professionalism regardless of the circumstances, or brevity, of each job. You have several weeks to enjoy your current situation. So do that!

    3. Colette*

      The last place I worked would only confirm dates and positions, and when I left, three managers volunteered to be references for me, so that policy may be more talk than reality.

  145. Jen RO*

    I may be attending a job fair soon (on the employer side) and I’m super excited. We are hiring a lot of people in my department and I suggested that it might help if I was there to talk to candidates… my boss and HR think it’s a great idea \o/ My job (technical writing) is virtually unknown here and I love talking about it, so I’m crossing my fingers that I will actually find some candidates who are interested.

  146. Wren*

    I’m stuck again. I want to find another job, but my job isn’t one you would find at the vast majority of companies and I keep staring at Indeed, unable to think of a reasonable search term. I have this fear of staying here the rest of my life because I can’t think of any other job I can do well.

  147. anon just in case*

    I don’t know if this is “work” or “other”.

    My father, who is elderly and in poor health but quite sharp mentally, has recently started a Strawberry French Press business that has grown rather quickly. I am a mid-career Chocolate Teapot professional with zero education, experience, or interest in Strawberry French Presses. It is fairly well-known that the Chocolate Teapot industry has fairly low salaries in general, and mine is no exception, but I live in a low COL area and have made certain choices that have worked out well, and am doing okay even though I will never be wealthy.

    My father is pressuring me to join him in his Strawberry French Press business. He says, and it’s probably true, that it is just too much work for him and his health is suffering. He also says that he started the business so he would have something to leave me (I have one other sibling who has picked a much more lucrative profession). He has also said that I would earn much more than I am currently making, and I’m sure that is true. He never talked at all about Strawberry French Presses to me until his venture was well under way, and he has no reason to think that I would be good at or even interested in this area.

    I am not young or entry-level. I have invested time and energy into my career, and have no desire to make a switch. I like what I do and I’m reasonably good at it, and I do not want to start all over learning a profession from scratch. I have suggested to my father that if the work is too much for him that he should hire an assistant, and he has reluctantly done so, but stressed that it is temporary and I can kick him out of his job and take over. I do not know how to make it any clearer that if he started this for me, I don’t want it.

    I’m feeling some guilt because obviously he wanted what he thought was best for me, but also resentment because I am way too old to have my daddy planning out the rest of my life, and anger and frustration that he apparently doesn’t consider my actual current life to be acceptable.

    1. animaniactoo*

      “Dad, if the intention was to do this for me, I wish you would have consulted me first. What I really want to do with my life is what I’m doing with it. I appreciate where you were coming from, but let’s talk about how to handle this so that we’re both okay with the idea that I may never work there unless I end up in a major bind, okay?”

    2. ZVA*

      I do not know how to make it any clearer that if he started this for me, I don’t want it.

      Have you said this exact thing to him? I’m not sure from your comment… If not, I suggest you do so, kindly but firmly. “I appreciate your thinking of me, but I like what I do and don’t want to switch careers.” Repeat as necessary.

      I know this is easier said than done, but you shouldn’t feel guilty. Your father may say he started the business for your sake, but I’m sure that’s not the whole story, whether he realizes it or not… I imagine it’s been a fulfilling way for him to spend his time—I say this because my elderly grandmother has been kind of adrift since her retirement, and I wouldn’t be surprised if running a successful business gives your father a sense of purpose and a reason to get up in the morning and all the things my grandmother seems to lack. But maybe not! I don’t know. The important thing is that, even if he hates this business and only endures it “for your sake,” that has nothing—but nothing—to do with you.

      It sounds to me like your father is just trying to provide for you in the best way he knows how, not unlike my own father’s plan to sell his business when he retires and give the money to my siblings and me… To me, this reads as a gesture of love, and I suggest you try and take it as such. That doesn’t mean you need to take over his business—far from it—but it may help you let go of the anger and resentment you feel. Best of luck.

    3. Ever and Anon*

      You can be straightforward with him that if you should assume ownership, you will sell the business, and let him make the decisions from that. Maybe he might sell it and give you a portion of the money as an alternative gift.

  148. lemonjelly*

    I had such an exciting work thing happen to me this week that I have to share!

    Background is that I started a new job at the beginning of February at a federal facility/agency but working through a contractor, field is IT engineering. Pay-wise it was a big step up from my last job, about a 30% increase. I knew I was underpaid at previous job, and the salary they offered when I started this one was within the range I had asked for, so overall extremely happy with the compensation. The job itself has turned out to be amazing, it’s a great team and I really enjoy both the work itself and the people I work with. I’ve been able to make a pretty good reputation for myself already as a high performer, but I always try to keep moving and working and not getting too complacent with anything.

    My manager through the contracting company asked me to call her on Wednesday (I was working from home), and started the conversation with “Let me close my office door… I’m really sorry I can’t do this in person…” and all the years of conditioning from bad management came rushing back in that all-too-familiar drop of my stomach. BUT! She was calling to tell me I’m getting a merit increase of 8%! Out of nowhere, not review time, not fiscal year end (for the contracting company anyways), almost 8 months into a new job, no asking or prompting for anything by me. She said the government manager always has great things to say about my work and they appreciate everything I’m doing! I have literally never had this happen before, a completely unexpected increase, especially of such a high percentage. At past jobs, you were doing great if you could manage to get a merit increase of anything over 3%. At my last company, an internal promotion from one team to another was barely 9%. And I was already very happy with my compensation. I’m still just so surprised and so happy. I already loved this job, but this really cements it for me!

    And on top of all that, my husband is turning in his two weeks notice today to start a new job that is a 30% increase for him too. I’m so proud of our little family! Our cats are going to be so spoiled.

  149. Million dollar baby*

    My company increases the salary of employees who have children. It’s a large amount, about 50% of my team’s average salary for someone with 2 kids. We’re a scrappy non-profit with below-market salaries, and I’m pretty sure this policy came about because so many people were leaving when they had kids because they just couldn’t make the finances work anymore.

    This is put forward as a family-friendly policy, but I still feel weird about it – I guess it’s demotivating that so much of compensation is based on something not related to performance, value to the company or market salaries. And I’m uncomfortable with the general idea of having salaries tied to having children (imagine if a company said “you have a baby, so we’re going to pay you less because we know you’ll be less focused”!).

    What do you all think? Is this common? Would you think of this as a nice benefit or not?

    1. CAA*

      No, it’s definitely not common and it feels pretty icky, though I guess I could understand it more if the non-profit is sponsored by a church that promotes large families.

      Do they do this for someone who has a spouse with a high paying job, or is it only for people who couldn’t otherwise afford to keep working there?

      1. Million dollar baby*

        It’s not a religious thing at our org, but that’s an interesting idea about where there might be other orgs doing this.

        Anyone with (dependent) children gets it, regardless of financial need/marital status/spouse job/what your Dear Auntie Gertrude left you.

      2. Million dollar baby*

        Hmm, okay, you all are convincing me.

        But on the other hand, companies offer benefits that are more expensive to provide to employees with families (insurance, relocation packages sometimes) all the time. Why is this different?

        1. Aurion*

          I think the point is that they’re deliberately compensating parents differently than non-parents, which is the most blatant act of discrimination against non-parents they can do. You can discriminate in other ways at work, but money for services rendered is the most explicit form of compensation, after all.

          With relocation packages, it’s a one-time cost that is needed to woo the employee into coming (because moving is difficult). But once the employee is in the door, their treatment shouldn’t be disparate from the treatment of non-parents. In other words, if there’s a WFH policy, flexible hours, etc. both childed and non-childed employees would (or should) have access to those benefits provided it makes sense for their jobs.

          A company pays more for insuring families, but the employee also pays more for the family insurance–more premiums, deductibles and co-pays are calculated accordingly, etc. It’s not like they’re getting off scot-free. And besides, aside from being a more auxiliary compensation, insurance is one of those things I wish I didn’t have to use. No one wants to get sick, right?

          But money? Money is the most explicit compensation for the employee’s work; it’s not an extra, it’s literally the currency of exchange. Benefits are more auxiliary. Paying people with kids more is explicitly saying “we think their work is worth more, for the sole reason of having kids.”

          I would be so, so furious.

          1. Million dollar baby*

            Ah, okay, and maybe that’s why it’s portrayed as a benefit instead of as truly a salary raise: they don’t literally say “If you have a kid, we will raise your salary by $X” but rather “If you have kids, you get a ‘child benefit’ of $X each month”. The extra money is lumped into your paychecks and reported as taxable income (and you can’t tell from a paystub what is base salary and what is child benefit), so I think of it as “parents get paid more” but I should have specified that – I can see that that difference between salary and benefits might be significant.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Well, first and foremost, it’s horribly discriminatory against non-parents. It’s a great recipe for resentment and morale problems — most people aren’t going to love doing the same work as their coworker who’s being paid 50% more for reasons that have nothing to do with merit and everything to do with out-of-work choices. (And what if that coworker happens to be less competent?)

          But there’s a bunch of practical problems with it too. What if my spouse makes mid-six-figures? Is the organization going to give me a 50% pay increase while other people still get below-market salaries? And how will the organization even know? Or, what happens if, god forbid, someone’s child dies? Do they lower their salary? What if I marry someone with kids — do I get it for step kids? Are they going to have to interrogate me about whether I really consider them my own kids or not? What if they only live with me half-time? What if I don’t have kids but I’m supporting a disabled sibling with massive medical expenses?

          It’s just ridiculous, and offensive.

        3. chickabiddy*

          I have a child and think it is a terrible idea.

          And, many workplaces only pay for the employee portion of the insurance (if they even do that) and deduct the spouse/child coverage from the pay.

          1. Million dollar baby*

            Oh, that’s interesting about the insurance – I’d been assuming most companies just paid for the covered family. We pay for 85% of the additional insurance premiums for covered family too.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      WTF! That’s discrimination against people who don’t have children. So, so gross. There could be legal ramifications too. Are you looking for a new job?

      1. Million dollar baby*

        I did look into the legal liabilities (as a “should I warn someone I think we’re in a risky position” because I care about this org sense, not looking for legal solutions) and it turns out most states don’t protect “family status” specifically. It would be protected if it were gender-based (and historically, an employer asking how many kids you have has been used to discriminate against women), but that doesn’t apply in our case. Both mothers and fathers get the benefit.

    3. Temperance*

      I think it’s disgusting and discriminatory, and hearkens back to a time when men got paid more than women because they had families to support. No, it’s wrong, and maybe even illegal.

      1. Million dollar baby*

        Yes, but we offer the same benefit to both men and women. I think part of my “gut” ick response is because basing salary on “who has a family to support” has historically been used to discriminate against women, but it’s not the case for us.

    4. Not Karen*

      This is utter crap. The only thing that should determine one’s salary (compared to someone in the same job at the same company) is how good you are at your job.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      That’s pretty disgusting. It would also violate state laws in some states. (There’s no federal law protecting against discrimination based on family status, but some states have those laws.) I strongly urge you and your coworkers to push back on this.

      If they want to be competitive on salaries, they need to do it across the board.

      1. Million dollar baby*

        I looked into the legal situation, but we’re not one of those states and we’re not covered by most of our state’s labor protections anyway because of our size.

        Thanks for the help figuring out what’s normal. I really think the Powers That Be actually think this is a nice perk (it gets brought up in every “Yeah, there’s no budget for raises, but look at all the great benefits we’ve added” talk) , and so they might be receptive to the suggestion to channel the money into raises or benefits that are used by everyone.

    6. Beezus*

      I wouldn’t be overly grateful for it if I were benefiting from it, because being paid a fair wage seems fair and not extraordinary. If I weren’t benefiting from it, I would resent that some of my coworkers were being paid significantly more for the same work, because of a characteristic that has nothing to do with the job or merit.

      It brings family status into the picture in a lot of other business decisions, in a way that feels unfair and is unlikely to benefit your operations. What happens when you have budget cuts? Do you fire the people with children, because that’s the best way to save money? What about when you need to hire someone but don’t have enough money to pay the “with children” rate – does not having children become a job qualification? When you need people to work overtime, do you ask people without children to take the hours, because you can best afford to pay them time and a half? When you have more requests for time off than you can accommodate, do you give time off to the people who are paid the least, because it’s a small way to make up for the low pay, or do you give it to the people who havekids, because it’s better on the budget and you can feel good about letting them spend time as a family? Ick, NO.

      2. Million dollar baby*

        That’s a really good point, about it being problematic that this gives managers an incentive to hire people without kids. And it’s a liability – if I get pregnant and we can’t afford any more raises, are they going to fire me? Or take back the child benefits from everyone?

    7. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Man, I love this question. It’s making me think about things I hadn’t considered before, and that’s always interesting.

      This question is reminding me that how we do things — anything, really — isn’t inherent,and that we should spend more time thinking about the values that undergird those choices.

      So: We tend to operate with the shared, assumed value that people should be paid a sliding scale based on their perceived worth to the employer (the worth of the work itself, the relative worth of one employee over another, all adjusted based on the market in which the work is done). But there are other systems that we could use, like this employer is: salary could be based on need; everyone could get the same salary; etc. The system we have now isn’t inherently better than the others. So do we have the system we want?

      I’m also not sure that this is really much different from the inequity created by employers that pay part or all of the premium for employee’s families. That’s not a direct payment from the employer to employees with children, but it’s real money that could be spent lowering the employee portion of premiums overall (or for raises, or invested back into the business, or whatever). And I’m sure most of us wouldn’t be comfortable with people with children getting more of other benefits (vacation time, retirement benefits, etc.) — why are we comfortable with it in the case of health insurance benefits?

      I’m not arguing for anything here. I’d be furious of my employer did this (although it would make me more likely to have kids; the difficulty of trying to raise a family on a nonprofit salary is absolutely a part of why my husband and I haven’t decided whether we’ll have kids). But I think it’s worth thinking through what’s behind our immediate reactions.

      1. Million dollar baby*

        Yes, and I just got out of the unpaid internship/volunteer/fellow part of starting a career in some non-profit fields. In those positions, I was usually paid a stipend, and the objective really was to try to keep everyone alive, fed, and at least not poor enough to cause a PR disaster when they’re found living in a tent (looking at you, United Nations). In my first “job”, you could request extra money only if you felt pushed into doing unsafe things for financial reasons.

        So that is the mindset I’m coming from, where I’m saying, well, sure, I’d love that extra money, but I can manage without it, so it should go to the team members we’re otherwise going to lose (and I do think it’s just a “no one really thought this through” problem that now some people with spouses with good jobs are getting it; when it started, everyone with kids was really struggling).

        But like you said, the assumed shared value in is that fairness means basing pay on “value to the company”. I knew that was the expectation for for-profts; I didn’t realize it might be common among non-profits too.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Not just common — the only way it’s done, really, with the exception of a very few outliers. What your company is doing is really bizarre and disturbing.

        2. misspiggy*

          Why can’t the nonprofit take the pot of money they have for parents, distribute it equitably among all staff (paying more to those furthest behind market rate), and eat the turnover when some people have to leave? Or, if they really can’t pay cost of living, relocate somewhere cheaper/invest in more effective fundraising? The approach they have chosen smacks of so much shortsightedness that I’d be worried about the organisation’s viability full stop.

    8. Trix*

      As someone who, first and foremost, will not be choosing to have kids, and secondarily happens to be physically very, very unlikely to reproduce, I would be furious.

      For me, this would quite possibly fall into the “nope too heinous to be ever comfortable to work here” category.

  150. Marian*

    I’m about to leave a job where I really admire, like, and want to keep in touch with multiple colleagues. Does anyone have a “system” they use to keep in touch with folks? Like a tickler system, but easy to maintain and non-weird. Any/all advice is welcome!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      One thing I could imagine is keeping a list of folks in a spreadsheet or a contacts group or something, and then having a monthly or quarterly reminder to review the list and send out a few emails. You could set the recurring reminder with the list in the body of the invite so it’s super simple.

    2. Nina*

      Honestly, why not use a simple address book? That way you can record mailing addresses (for Christmas cards and such) and emails. Or create a nice spreadsheet on Excel.

    3. Joanna*

      LinkedIn can be useful, because unlike people’s work email addresses their LinkedIn details don’t change when they move onto a different company

  151. Super Anon*

    Advice…how do you deal with co-workers who want credit for a product/service because they contributed to the idea, but didn’t do any of the work?

    I have a colleague Sansa, who has gotten upset in the past because of this issue. For example, a few years ago we were brainstorming and tossing out ideas for a completely different product, and she suggested something that would fall exclusively under my department (which we both knew and acknowledged) and I developed the product. This was one of many ideas that got generated in 30 minute discussion. I ran with the idea and spent a year developing the idea, and then developing a new product and launched it. In the end I received significant praise from my superiors for the new product, and Sansa got very upset saying she didn’t understand why she didn’t receive equal amount of credit for the product.

    Now, I’m working on another project, which again she helped contribute to the idea. She’s repeatedly asked that I make sure to give her credit for the project. And again, I’m in a situation where her idea helped, but that she hasn’t contributed to any of the work to develop the project. So I’m a bit of a loss. I’m trying to be sensitive to the fact that she did contribute to the idea. But, I’m also pretty frustrated. I’ve spent months working on these projects fleshing out the idea, working through the issues, putting together proposals, developing budgets, marketing, etc., and Sansa provided part of the core idea. This time I feel like I’m bending over backwards to give Sansa credit for the idea while diminishing the work I put into the project. So I don’t know what the right balance should be, and how to handle this. Sansa, in general is a lovely person, and a great co-worker, so I don’t want her to feel like I’m stealing the credit. But, at the same time, I don’t want to diminish my own work. Suggestions?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      How essential are Sansa’s contributions? Would the products have been markedly different or even worse without her input? If so, she does deserve some credit (especially if her ideas led to more money being made or some other objective measure of success) but not from you. I’d suggest to her that she speak with her own manager or even your manager – whichever makes sense – and say, “I’m glad that my ideas are useful, and even though I know Arya is doing the heavy lifting on making the project happen, I’d like to be a more integral part of the process.”

      What’s being overlooked is whether or not your other coworkers are tossing ideas into the mix that are then used later on. In collaborative teams, it’s part of the norm for people to popcorn out ideas that other people bring to fruition. It’s the very nature of brainstorming. So is your office like that, or is Sansa really the only one with good ideas?

      1. Super Anon*

        It’s definitely a tossing ideas out there in the popcorn sense. And the two ideas in questions were ideas that I built upon. I probably wouldn’t have developed those products without the original kernel of the idea. And so she definitely does deserve credit for helping plant the seed. But, this time she’s pushing me for equal credit and recognition. And that becomes difficult when my name gets associated with products. I think I need to encourage her to talk to her boss.

        1. Stellaaaaa*

          Yeah, it sounds like there needs to be some infrastructure for crediting or rewarding the Sansas of your office for their ideas. You shouldn’t have to share the praise you get for your work, but I can also see how it would be demoralizing to see someone else take your idea and run with it.

        2. SophieChotek*

          Yes, I agree – and some people are great at conceptualizing something, but have no idea how to actually create it/make it a realization. So while there does (maybe need) to be some credit for that, I am sure a lot of people think “There needs to be a service/business/product that solves problem X” but it is the people who actually realize it that become the entreprenuers, inventors, risk takers, etc. That said, in your setting – are other ideas that get tossed out that you or others in similar situations get build upon? Do they get the type of credit she is looking for? Or are they more integral to the actual creation of their idea? Seems like all these factors play into it? It sounds like you are really trying to be fair — so good luck!

  152. Biogal*

    So, I’m having issues with my job. Obviously. I am really good at the technical aspects of the job, and good at communication with bosses a couple levels up. My problems are with my subordinates and with my direct supervisor. I’ve been in the same position for 7 years; I’ve had six raters (I work for the army). It seems like we were set up to fail, but I have scratched and clawed and made sure that we didn’t. Finally, we have the support to be successful (on the basis of my work). I wrote 75% of the grant that allows this, and sit on multiple advisory boards. As soon as we were awarded the expansion money, I got new supervisors that are in charge of it. I’m fine with that; my strengths are technical and strategic, not tactical and personnel. But everyone else in my group received a raise or promotion based on the funds I acquired. I was purposefully given a rating that results in no raise, despite my contributions. I know I can be difficult to work with–I have aspergers and am actively in treatment–but it has been really hard for me to deal with this. Any advice?

  153. Lentils*

    Posting on my girlfriend’s behalf – she works for a chain of eyeglass stores and her particular branch has had some hilariously awful issues regarding policy and management in the past. Earlier today she mentioned to me that the two Spanish-speaking workers (who are both darker-skinned, it’s a fairly white store in a fairly white city) have been banned from speaking Spanish unless they’re interacting with a customer, because apparently there have been “customer complaints” about the two of them casually speaking Spanish to each other. There are signs in the employees-only areas to remind them of this, too.

    What we’re wondering is – obviously this is shitty and racist, but is there a legal issue here? Can someone report the store for this new policy?

  154. Two-Time College Dropout*

    This newly-minted hiring manager just conducted her first round of interviews and hires.

    I’m rarely nervous when I’m the one being interviewed, so I was completely unprepared for how nerve-wracking leading the interview and choosing a new hire would be!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Right? We just conducted an interview process and fortunately one candidate really stood out from the rest! It made things SO much easier!

      1. Two-Time College Dropout*

        It was a surreal experience for me because I just got promoted and had to choose an internal hire to fill the position I left.

    2. Trix*

      Oh man, I feel you! I’ve done interviews before, but I’m currently actively involved in the hiring. Wrote the job description, provided the parameters of what we would look at to interview, wrote the jnterview questions, wrote the technical test that I am fighting tooth and nail to use (love you HR, but really, sometimes?), doing all the digging I possibly can on the internal candidates, etc etc. It’s a little terrifying. And I haven’t even gotten to the interviews yet!

      We can do it!

  155. Nina*

    Question about following up, post interview.

    This doctor’s office has interviewed me twice now and I haven’t heard anything from them in two weeks. I know you’re supposed to mentally “write them off” and keep applying to other places, and I’ve been doing that.

    I last interviewed with the doctor herself but I can never get her or any of her associates on the phone. Forget HR, that’s a nightmare in itself. I’m aware that doctor’s offices are incredibly busy, but should I even bother calling them again? I don’t want to get into nagging territory, but unemployment is driving me crazy at this point.

      1. Nina*

        Don’t worry, I didn’t. But I don’t have an email address for any of them either, (nor a business card for reference) so I think I just have to keep waiting.

        1. Windchime*

          I would keep waiting. I know it’s hard; I’m talking with someone who assures me they are putting together an offer. On Monday it will have been a week since we spoke. I have confidence in her and I think they are indeed putting something together, but I’m also keeping my other interview appointments and I won’t cancel them or stop looking until I have something in writing.

          It’s hard! Hang in there.

  156. AnonLurker*

    Posting on behalf of my sister:

    Yesterday, she and the entire company got pulled into a surprise meeting with multiple Big Bosses (men who never directly work with her or her branch) and were berated for about an hour about how badly they were under-performing. One dude, Fergus, was excused from the meeting because he is performing “leagues” above everyone else. My sister spoke up to ask for clarification on which areas they were under-performing in and if he could provide specific examples. Big Boss proceeded to literally speak over her until you couldn’t hear her talk anymore. It was noticeable enough that after the meeting, multiple colleagues texted her to say how sorry they were that she had been treated that way. Note: she was the only one to try to speak during the meeting. Not her manager or the general manager of their branch. No one.

    This company is pretty horrible when it comes to management (there’s none), there have been zero performance reviews or feedback on work, my sister works 50 hour weeks to get projects finished, and routinely is up until 2 am to meet deadlines. I find this boss’s treatment of her unacceptable and am wondering if she should say anything. I want her to send an email to boss’s boss or HR, even if they don’t do anything. What do y’all think?

    P.S. She’s already trying to leave this job and is actively looking for something else.

    1. Joanna*

      Has she spoken to her immediate manager? They may have more idea of what triggered the meeting.

      As for how to stop such unacceptable behaviour from senior management, that’s a tricky one. If the company is as dysfunctional as you’re describing, HR is likely part of the problem.

    2. Colette*

      I really doubt that complaining will do anything good – if multiple managers thought it was ok, she’d be making herself a target. She definitely needs to get out of there.

    3. Accidental Analyst*

      I have a sister who was in a similar situation. I really had to squash my protective big sister instincts so that I wouldn’t do something like call out her manager.

      What I ended up doing was a lot of listening, role playing, reframing things and pointing her in the direction of this blog. She knew I was a safe place to vent – she could get the emotion out outside of work so it was easier to remain calm at work.

      Your sister now has valuable knowledge about the place: that it’s safer to keep her mouth shut. And if the bigwigs are coming in to berate almost everyone, there’s possibly some major changes coming.

      I hope that she finds a new position soon, Just make sure she’s evaluating the position for fit. It would be tough if she grabbed the first opportunity and the culture turned out to be the same.

  157. Accidental Analyst*

    How do you get the energy to look for a new job when you’re burnt out and suffer from low self esteem?

    My boss is back from leave next week and the last real conversation we had had him saying my health was more important than the job and he wouldn’t hold it against me if I found something else. I asked if he was telling me to look but didn’t get a clear answer – which is an answer in itself.

    I’ve spent the time while he’s away trying to move my project forward. It’s not in the position that it needs to be. A lot of that is due to things outside my control. I’m not sure how that’s going to be received.

    I should have spent the time working on my resume and applying for jobs but . . . reasons. (1) I wouldn’t be able to focus on the project, (2) I have more loyalty to my boss than to myself, (3) every time I start to work on my resume or look at jobs I get overwhelmed/stressed because I’m not qualified for any of the jobs in my field, (4) I’m burnout and don’t have the energy to look/improve my skills etc, and (5) previously my boss had been pushing to have me moved to a permanent role (not sure of the details and am that burnt out I’m not sure if I can do it/want it).

    Any advice on dealing with my boss when he’s back, and for really starting the job search process?

    1. Joanna*

      When it comes to the loyalty to your boss thing, I think it’s important to remember it’s just business. Of course you should be gracious, give reasonable notice periods and do whatever else you can to reduce the impact of you leaving, but it’s a normal part of business for people to move on and any vaguely good boss will accept with good will that it happens.

      As for job hunting while burned out, for me the key has been to break everything down into very small steps. For example, don’t tell yourself you’re going to overhaul your entire resume and cover letter templates in one go, tell yourself you’re just going to start with improving the description of your last job on your resume. Once you’ve done the first thing, if you’ve still got the energy, find another little thing. If not, feel happy that you’ve accomplished something for your job search and take a break.

      1. Accidental Analyst*

        Thanks for the response. I’ve been trying smaller steps but I think I have to go smaller still and just get them done instead of trying to get them perfect.

        With respect to loyalty – I’ve worked with him for over 10 years. When he changed companies he brought me over. He’s pushed me to do more and be better. He’s let me know how much he appreciates what I’ve done. He’s also been pushing for a much better position for me. All of this while he’s very much aware of my shortcomings, limitations etc. So intellectually I know it’s just business and I shouldn’t let my loyalty put me in a tough position, it’s just harder to put that into practice.

    2. Colette*

      It’s really hard to job hunt when you’re burned out, so you’re not alone. Is there someone in your life who will hold you accountable for actions (I.e. This week I will update my resume/meet with one contact/apply for two jobs)?

      1. Accidental Analyst*

        Accountability can help but everyone’s dealing with their own stuff at the moment so I don’t want burden them with mine. Instead I’ll try to make me accountable to me.

    3. NicoleK*

      I really dislike job hunting (the stress, having to sell yourself, the rejections, self doubt, and etc). And it’s even harder when I’m feeling run down, overwhelmed, or defeated. To motivate myself, I usually tell myself “the sooner I start job hunting, the sooner I’ll have a new job”

  158. GovWorker*

    I was on extended sick leave in June and part of July. I had hundreds of emails upon my return. While all the important work related messages were dealt with expeditiously, there was a message from a co-worker from July that I inadvertently overlooked until recently.

    This co-worker has a poor reputation in the office, due to behavioral issues, and is somewhat of an outcast. The message was not work related but was talking about his manager, (who had been my manager before I was promoted six years ago) and his present difficulties with her and whether or not I thought she had racist tendencies and if that was a problem I had with her.

    In a way, I feel sorry for him. I work at home now and haven’t seen him for quite some time. I do not know if I should respond to his message, at this late date. But I feel badly about ignoring it. Of course I will not address his question, I know enough to stay out of that mess. But do I acknowledge his message at all? Help!

    2. NicoleK*

      What do you hope to achieve by responding to his message? It doesn’t sound like you’re all that close with said coworker. I would just ignore it.

      1. Dot Warner*

        I second this. If you think this could turn into workplace drama, there’s nothing to be gained from responding.

  160. Red or White Kool Aid?*

    When I was 34 years old, I started my second career. I began in retail (as I had come from retail management in my first career), and was fairly successful for 4 years. I then moved into wholesale distribution, with the expectancy of working in that part of the industry for no more than 5 years, then moving into the supplier world, while studying the production side (it’s an Associates degree, I could get a B.S. degree in this discipline).

    I now have the A.A.S. degree. Suppliers are of all ages, and I thought my degree would be a boost. (I don’t have a Bachelors, as I dropped out many years ago during my senior year for personal reasons…whole unrelated story…but I will go back to get that) Meanwhile I’m still working in distribution, and I’m 50 years old – there aren’t too many 50 year-old sales reps, most are 25-45 years old. The accounts I call on are mostly managed by 25-45 year olds as well. I’m definitely old-timer. There are career reps, of course, but that’s their own choice, and I have no issue with that. But that’s not for me…I *do* want to move up to the next rung in this industry, and boy, ageism is showing it’s ugly face. A Bachelors is nice to have but not crucial, as I want to be in sales management. I figured 20 years of specific industry’s sales experience is fine, and there are many folks just like that.

    And then…my employment history is spotty, but not really negative. 2 years ago I was let go during a restructure in management, and earlier this year the owner of the company let me go because he was sued (I wasn’t involved) and I was terminated before I could find another job (Just a phone call one day, “sorry, it’s over.”) Both times I found a job within 60 days, but neither were a best choice. I believe I have a career to grow.

    So my question is this: do I tell interviewers a condensed version of the above story, that this is my second career? And while my job history is spotty, it really is honest, it just looks shady. How do I get through that?

    Thanks for any advice!

    1. Joanna*

      I wouldn’t tell them the story at anything close to that length. I think you can condense a lot of it down to something like “Unfortunately since I started working in this field, I’ve had to move jobs a few times due to restructuring and downsizing. I’m hoping to find a long term role where I can really develop my skills and contribute to the company”.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I would really focus on what you’ve done in the last ten years on your resume and in interviews. If you get an interview and they want to know more, you can talk about it in the interview. But if you do, make it brief.

      Certainly mention your education. If you want to, you can say something that you’ve taken additional courses in addition to, and after you’ve completed the A.A.S., but don’t mention being close to a B.S. or not finishing one.

      Good luck!

  161. overcaffeinatedqueer*

    So, not strictly work related, but my wife and I do volunteer work, fostering cats. Can I have a section for volunteer experience and list the org?

    Also, the foster cat is now listed for adoption. Any AAM readers in Minnesota want a gray tabby mix? Needs to be an only cat but is super sweet.

    IDK what’s allowed to post in these threads but I can share his bio from the webpage if people want.

    1. Joanna*

      You can definitely have a volunteer section on your resume if the volunteering you’re doing demonstrates useful skills or engagement with the field you’re applying to work in, although it shouldn’t take up huge amounts of space. I had what I mentioned in mine help me get a job.

    2. Joanna*

      As for posting about the cat here, there’s a thread for non-work related discussion put up on Saturdays that might be a better place for it.

    3. Jean*

      Neither in your state nor able to adopt a cat (severe kitty allergies) but I wanted to commend you for doing a good deed. There are so many animals who need a loving home! Thank you for helping. Sending good vibes to you in hopes that your foster cat finds a good new place. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  162. Aussie Teacher*

    Aw man, the Open Thread goes up about 11pm in Australia and by the time I read it next morning, there’s 1000+ comments!

    Just wanted to update people on my boss who is married to one of his four direct reports (including me). The higher ups have finally decided to act and ask them both to take long service leave for the first half of next year, and are strongly encouraging only one of them to return. I’ve been asked to take over as Acting Head for the first half of next year! Stoked!
    Also, I have an interview for a different Head position next week at another school – first time I’ve interviewed for a management position but my 5 years of daily AAM reading will hopefully stand me in good stead! Wish me luck!!

    1. Joanna*

      Feel your pain on the Aussie time zones problem. Pretty sure once daylight savings time kicks in this weekend it will be 2am or something crazy like that

      1. Accidental Analyst*

        Could have sworn it was already something like that – too late to stay up and too early to get up

          1. Accidental Analyst*

            I did that once (maybe 2am Bris time). I’ve taken to writing what I want to say in advance. That way, if I’m up I can post and then sleep. It’s not ideal as I can’t respond in a timely fashion but it gives a better chance of getting more responses

            1. Aussie Teacher*

              I’m on the west coast, but teachers go to bed early! I do the same thing usually – wrote it out in advance and then try to wake up (or set an alarm if I’m organised) to post it right on 11pm!!

    2. Dot Warner*

      Good luck with the interview, and congrats on being asked to be the Acting Head! That’s great news!

      BTW, I feel your pain about the time zones: I live in the US but work the night shift, so by the time I get a chance to read the comments, it’s usually after midnight Eastern time and there’s a ton of comments in the thread.

  163. Snazzy Hat*

    Just got a rejection letter for a great job. I got through the phone interview stage & made it very clear I wanted this job as a career. I’m pretty sure I didn’t say anything stupid. The saddest part is, out of the 45 applications I’ve sent out so far this year, this was the only one that matched a previous job I’ve had.

    I’m also in a “radio silence” state with another job. Tuesday I attended a job fair with no expectations and met a talent person who was thrilled about my experience. (Closely related. Think chocolate coffee pots instead of chocolate teapots.) Later that day she left a message on my voicemail saying the hiring manager wants me to come in for an interview, and asked for my reply with availability. I called Wednesday at noon & left a message offering some times for Thursday or Friday. This afternoon, I sent an e-mail saying I was still interested and, since the two days had passed without a confirmation, I added my availability next week. Yes, that may have come across as desperate, but she seemed very eager to meet me and to bring me in. We’re talking “omg thank you for having this experience here’s my card we’re looking for someone like you tell me more about yourself!”

    Back to the drawing board, I guess.

    1. Snazzy Hat*

      Oh, also got a rejection letter today for a job I applied to almost two months ago. Woo. Forgot about that one because I forgot about the application.

    3. Mirilla*

      The job hunt is draining. I’m right there with you. I applied to a local job which would have been perfect and not even a phone interview. At least they sent a no thanks email so I wasn’t left wondering.
      I’ve been job hunting for 10 months while employed. It sucks.
      I wouldn’t count out that job you mentioned completely yet. It’s only been a few days. I would have handled it exactly as you did following up. Some companies are better at communicating than others, plus maybe the lady was out sick or super busy.

  164. NicoleK*

    I accepted a new job and will be heading back to the cube farm. After a couple of years in either a shared office or a private office, I need tips and pointers on cube farm etiquette. I do not want to start off on the wrong foot. It’s also allergy season for me so I’ve been sneezing alot more.

    1. Joanna*

      A couple of things that come to mind for a cube farm environment
      – Unless there’s a good reason you must have your phone ringtone very loud, turn it down or onto silent.
      – Try to avoid bringing strong smelling stuff to your desk. Food is the obvious one but things like hand lotion or desk cleaning spray can also be annoying.
      – If you need to have an extended conversation with someone, consider moving to a conference room.
      – Be careful about leaving confidential or personal papers on your desk when you’re not there. Even if you trust the people you work closely with, cleaners, repair people or people from other departments coming into the space might not be so trustworthy.

      1. Ice Bear*

        If you are allowed to listen to music via speakers please keep them very very low. It’s distracting to your cube mates otherwise, and many of us don’t want to be THAT person constantly asking you to turn them down so instead we suffer in silence. Well, more like suffer in the wake of your musical preferences. ;)

    2. Windchime*

      I’m very noise-sensitive, so any kind of tapping or drumming or humming, etc, can drive me crazy. It’s like my brain zeros in on that and then I can’t focus on anything else. One thing I’m not sensitive to is noises like the rustling of snack packages, but I learned from reading here that many people are. So now if I’m eating a snack out of the machine, I dump it out onto a napkin so I’m not constantly reaching into the crinkly bag.

  165. state government jane*

    Yay! Open thread! Been looking forward to the opportunity to pick the collective brain of the AAM community all week. I work for a state government agency, and I’m anticipating a lateral (but exciting and really positive) transfer to another division in the next few weeks or so. My question is how to negotiate salary in this situation. My job classification isn’t changing, but I’m an experienced and internal candidate (and they’ve been informally recruiting me and talking with higher ups in my current division about their interest in “poaching” me)… I’m currently at step H in the salary schedule with a raise to J currently scheduled for March. I’m not experienced with literally any of this and would love any input! Thanks for your help!

    1. Chaordic One*

      In my experience, as a former state worker, state pay grades and guidelines are pretty much set and you don’t usually have much (if any) room to negotiate. That said, it doesn’t hurt to try and you certainly need to know ahead of time how this will affect you.

      Since your job classification isn’t changing, it might be that you will stay at step H, but ask if you can start the new position at a higher step. Say something like you are hoping that you can start at step K (or whatever). It might be possible or it might not be. At the very least, make sure that if you accept the new position that your salary schedule raise to step J will still go through as scheduled in March.

      Even if it doesn’t, it might still be worth transferring to get the different work experience and skills. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. You need to act in your own best interest.

  166. Uhhhh... I was wrong*

    I hope it’s not too late to get any decent advice, but… well… today at work I said something I shouldn’t have said and I am just so embarrassed and feel awful about it.

    I work at a school (in a specialized role, not a teacher) and there are certain kids that have aides who assist them throughout the day, some children (with severe autism, etc.) have aides that are hired through the school board and some are through outside agencies (I think their parents must hire the agency, I’m not sure). ANYWAY, regardless… one of the aides hired from an outside agency has just been constantly overstepping her boundaries in my area of the school. For example, I had resources to pulled for the boy to look at when he needed a break. No problem, super easy to do and I’m more than happy to do it. His aide tells me he’s not interested in the resources, which (to me) means that I can put them away. Hoooo boy was I wrong, his aide attacked me and criticized me for not being accommodating and blah blah blah. Oh my fucking god. I just about LOST IT. I have never had someone come into my workplace (who is not a supervisor, a manager, etc.) and just attack me. Like who… the fuck does she think she is? I told her that I’m not an administrator and if she needs certain changes made she can discuss it with the admins/her teacher and I will be perfectly happy to make those accommodations. But I’m not a mind reader. I need to know what’s actually needed from me.

    Oh my god, I didn’t intend for that all to come out. Anyway! I ended up having a discussion with the student’s teacher about this and while I was telling her how inappropriate it was for his aide to come at me like that, she does point out that I shouldn’t have gotten so heated in his presence. Which is true, I would never have gotten so angry around another student. That never, ever, ever would have happened. And even though the anger was not directed at the student, it was wrong. She starts to go on about how “oh, well, if you were his parents what would you think of this happening in his presence” and the FIRST thing out of my mouth was “well, if he was my son he wouldn’t be going to this school.” To be HONEST, I don’t even *know* what I meant by that when I blurted it out. But oh my god, that was not an okay thing to say. That was rude and just ROTTEN of me to say that. But I said it.

    Now I am just sooooooooo worried about what’s going to happen on Monday, if anything. It was so inappropriate for me to say and I just don’t know what to do about it now.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I am sorry you feel like you are in rough spot right now. Sorry I don’t have any words of wisdom here. I would think if you get asked about it – -you clearly acknowledge the incident, you were at fault, even though the aide was in the wrong, you say what you will do to ensure this does not happen, and then hopefully you can move on from there.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I imagine that all you can really do is apologize to the student aide (if you get the chance) and to the teacher (and to your supervisor if it goes that far). Live and learn and don’t let it happen again.

    3. MissGirl*

      This was beyond inappropriate to way over the line. I hope you apologized in no uncertain terms to everyone concerned, including the aide. Sounds like rather than admitting fault for the first instance, you blamed the aide. The aide may have acted out of bounds, but your going off on him was not the appropriate way to handle it. You escalated the issue far more. If I were your boss, I would want you to tell me exactly how you intend to fix it and make sure it doesn’t happen again. A lot of this makes you sound like you have some anger and patience issues, which is a huge red flag when working with special needs children. Your boss needs to know that you are a calm presence for these kids.

  167. PersistentCat*

    Hi!
    It’s been a while since I’ve posted, mostly due to an overwhelming work load. I’ve been working 60+ hours a week, trying to cover for absences, vacations, and a already crushing work load.
    On top of the work load, I have been recently targeted as a “problem” and a department head (one of 12 office employees) is being incredibly difficult. He actually called a meeting trying to get me fired-and didn’t invite me to it. In an office of only 12, he’s suddenly reverted to strict top-down communication, asking me to do tasks by going through my manager & goes around complaining about how my department lacks leadership. He pointedly wants me fired over something that he asked me to do (set a standard) and then claims that I’m difficult to work with, but goes around yelling at people all the time. I took this job knowing that I would be under-payed & over-worked ($40k/yr for 60+ hours/week? ha!), but viewed it as an opening move to better options in a few years. Then this nonsense happened. How do you deal with a little sh*t, who’s literally made me cry at work for the first time?? How do you deal with another department head targeting you as the sole problem? How do you deal when your supervisor’s response is to “cut back on projects & focus on your core tasks”, when you aren’t doing any projects, but scurrying around helping her & your techs?
    I’ll happily step down to tech work somewhere else & literally make the exact same kind of money and with more reasonable hours, if need be, but I’d like to make this work if possible. I like my work, I just can’t handle personal attacks.

  168. Myrin*

    Hey guys, I need help with the phrasing of an email to my thesis adviser.

    I sent him an email eleven days ago and he hasn’t yet responded. This is extremely unusual and makes me think he either didn’t get it or just overlooked it. When he didn’t answer in his normal time frame – he mostly answers on the same day and two days was the most I’d ever had to wait – I wanted to wait a couple of days longer to leave room for things like illness, something to do with his small child, no internet access etc. But now it’s been almost two weeks and while the content of the email is not extremely time-sensitive, I do need an answer soon so that we can get the ball rolling.

    So I want to write him again and basically ask “I’m not sure if you got my other email” and then repeat the request/question from before but also acknowledge that maybe he just hadn’t gotten to it yet for whatever reason since I don’t want to be that annoying person who won’t stop bothering someone if they don’t answer immediately. We have a good relationship of many years and the message needn’t be super formal but still, he’s my supervisor, so I can’t just be stammering around, either.

    I’d appreciate any help I can get!

    1. PersistentCat*

      My own approach would be to just ask the question/make the request again, not referencing the prior email at all. It probably just slipped through the cracks.

    2. Rahera*

      I’m guessing given his usual promptness that he meant to reply, but he has had so much mail come in that yours has been bumped to the second page of the inbox contents and been lost. I would be inclined just to forward the message again with something like ‘hi, just wanted to make sure you saw this.’ I think one reminder/re-forward would be OK and he might be grateful to have his memory jogged.
      :)

      1. SophieChotek*

        I would probably do this too. Plus it sounds like you have a good relationship with thesis advisor. But if you prefer to not reference original email you could send a new one too — it still might prompt advisor to vaguely recall first one…

        1. JaneB*

          I advise theses and am very cool with getter no that sort of email – shows me the student is keeping track of their work well, and understands that sometimes I don’t…

  169. Not A Startup Guy*

    Hello everyone! I hope I am not too late to get a response to my question. This will be half letting off steam, half asking how to frame leaving this company so soon.

    I’m in tech and I recently joined a smaller tech company. I’ve tried to avoid startups because I’m a risk averse person and I don’t deal with the pressure well. I thought that since this company has been around for a pretty long time and has a lot of employees that it was not a startup type place (phrasing?). But I was wrong.

    We’re severely understaffed. One more senior person confided in me that we need to triple our engineering staff. Another said he’s leaving if things don’t change in the next few months. Because of this, lots of people are working so late they sleep in the office, but them management expects them to be back to work at 9 in the morning. The CEO sends out emails at 1:00 A.M. to tell everyone we need to “hustle” and work harder the next day and then comes in to lecture everyone about not working hard enough. One of my interviewers even apologized to me for OKing hiring me. I’ve also heard from him that the CEO won’t hire more people because he thinks that we aren’t working hard enough, and if we were no one would be sleeping in the office.

    Everything about this company is nuts and I want out, but I’ve only been here for about half a year. I’m worried that I’ll come off as a job hopper, and as trash talking my current employer, and that it will look bad to interviewers.

    My question is: what level of detail should I give when interviewers ask why I’m leaving my job so quickly? I’m worried if I complain about the demands and workload at this job, I’ll be seen as lazy, even though I know that’s not true about myself. How can I avoid giving that impression?

    1. Not A Startup Guy*

      Please ignore that little “(phrasing?)” bit. I was tying this up on my phone in a waiting room before. My apologies!

    2. Windchime*

      I would think that if you mention that you are leaving because the expectation is that you work around the clock and literally sleep at the office, people will understand. That’s just plain nuts.

    3. MissGirl*

      When they ask why you’re leaving, focus on reasons to take the new job. I want a job in ____, with responsibilities like ____. I’m hoping for a more settled company instead of a start-up.

      1. Not A Startup Guy*

        Thank you! I like this! Focus on the good of the new job, not the bad of the current job. I’m talking to some very well established companies right now so this is not only easy to do but very relevant to the places I’m applying.

  170. JELLO*

    Has anyone here ever worked in a position (not necessarily at the same company) for so long that you get sloppy and stupid…or is it just me?

    I’m at my 3rd job in 9 years, not uncommon in my industry but there are certainly people who stay in a company for many years. Yes, I’d like to be one of those who can put down some roots, have a real career, not just a series of jobs.

    But I’m starting to feel non-promotable, and it’s affected my work stamina. Starting to feel like my game is off, and I’m not performing as I once did. Plus, I’m getting older. Is that it? Getting older? Or is this a flaw that others have, and can it be overcome?

  171. Annie*

    I was invited to join my community college’s chapter of Phi Theta Kappa. From what I’ve heard, it’s just like Phi Beta Kappa, except it’s for 2-year colleges. According to what I was told and what I found on the website, I would qualify for transfer scholarships to select 4-year colleges as a member. There are other scholarships listed, but many of them are open to non-members. There are also community service activities associated with this honor society.
    However, I’m not sure I want to join because there is a cost ($75) associated with joining, and family members I’ve talked to are afraid it’s a “scam”. One person online did say it was a “ripoff” if you don’t get any transfer scholarships, and it’s easy to cheat yourself out of them if you don’t pay close attention to the deadlines. I’m also on the fence about going on to a 4-year college once I get my Associate’s degree.
    If I join, how much good would it do me to mention the Phi Theta Kappa membership on my resume?
    If I don’t join, how much good would it do me to mention that I was selected for/invited to Phi Theta Kappa?

  172. Interviewing potential 'boss'*

    Possibly too late to get replies, but trying anyway:

    This week I am meeting with a candidate for a new position that will be between my boss and I based on titles/the org chart. My boss has been promoted and has many more direct reports, and has decided to hire someone to take over approving time, annual reviews, etc. for my small department, one of several that he manages. This new person will not have the same role as I do but his/her work will inform what I do – doing background research on the best way to improve teapot handles, for example, and then feeding that information to me so I can liaise with the teapot handle makers. I have one other colleague who has the same title as I do and does similar work but in a different area (teapot handles vs. teapot spouts). We will both technically be reporting to this new person, but still meet with and receive guidance from our current boss, who used to do what we do before he moved up in the organization.

    I am very wary of this change. I have been at my job less than a year, and one of the reasons that I left my previous employer was because of a very similar situation (new person hired above me, leaving no path for advancement) that leadership managed in the absolute worst possible way, causing a lot of resentment and anger and leading to a toxic environment. I don’t think that will happen here; my boss is fantastic, and due to our trusting relationship (I came from a ‘competing’ organization and knew him for many years before he hired me) I have been able to be very honest with him about my concerns, but I still have lingering PTSD from my old job. Nevertheless, this change is happening and the meeting this week is to “interview” this candidate, who I believe is the person my boss wants to hire. My colleague will also meet with her separately – I would have preferred for us to speak with her together, but this is how my boss arranged it. She will meet with my colleague, have lunch with my boss, and then meet with me.

    Finally – my question! I have not done this before. Are there questions I should ask her? Just make conversation for the whole hour to get to know her? My absolute first concern is how she would fit the culture of our organization and department; we are given a lot (a LOT) of freedom – our boss tells us to go do our jobs using our judgement and come to him if we have questions. He trusts us completely. I moved to a different state and uprooted my spouse to take this position; I really don’t want to end up being micromanaged by someone who is in a fairly different role but thinks they have the power to tell me how to do my job.

    Help!!!

  173. Anonyby*

    This is late, but hopefully someone can see & help.

    So I’m working on redoing my resume to get it in for a couple of jobs at a college where a friend works. My friend gave me some pointers (as he’s been on hiring committees for the school before). One of the first things is to get all the required qualifications on your resume.

    The first qualification on ALL of their jobs is understanding & sensitivity to diversity in race, religion, socio-economic, disability, sexual orientation, etc. I’m trying to figure out how to put that on my resume (and it has to be on the resume because that’s what they check first and if all of the required qualifications aren’t on there, then it gets rejected before they even look at the cover letter). Any ideas/tips? My office does have a wide range of people from various cultural/race backgrounds, and we serve people from a range of socio-economic backgrounds.

    1. J*

      I’m baffled as to how you would even indicate that on a resume, which should be a record of your accomplishments. Maybe that’s one you can skip when your friend advises “get all the qualifications on the page”. Or, check with your friend about what that looks like.

      1. Anonyby*

        I’ve already asked him to look it over before I submit it. And I think I might just end up with a combo of accomplishments and duties just to fill up space & get their requirements, since I’ve been underemployed here.

  174. J*

    This morning’s dilemma:

    I have been at the same job level for 10 years, at two different organizations: teapot manager. I had a lateral “promotion” at my previous job where my title changed (manager of handles to manager of handles and lids), but still on the level, no pay raise or anything. My previous organization enjoys a much better reputation than the one before it, which makes up for staying at the same level.

    I started a new job a few months back and finally! at last! stepped up a level: I’m now a teapot developer! And the new organization also enjoys a very positive reputation. So it was a win all around.

    However, I’m looking for a new job (unsustainable commute, unexpected limitations to my ability to do my job). I am considering applying for one at another organization, also a well-known organization, but the role is teapot manager. Again. But closer to home, so maybe a fair trade-off?

    I’m feeling a little defeated by this lack of upward mobility.

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