open thread – October 21-22, 2016

by Alison Green on October 21, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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    4. AliceBD*

      Feel better! I just emailed my boss and key coworkers that I’ll be working from home due to a cold, and to please IM me rather than call.

    5. caledonia*

      I am also enjoying coughing, sneezing and sniffing. (Am at work too… – because this is my first week of new job). May we feel better soon!

    9. Punkin*

      I thought I was missing it. I was up late for work & kept checking for a new post. Glad to know I was not mistaken.

      Alison – you take care of yourself. We will amuse ourselves quietly in the corner. ;-)

    10. Joanna*

      Hope you’re feeling better soon. Don’t push yourself to get back into writing too quickly. There’s plenty of your wonderful work in the archives to keep us reading for a very long time!

    12. OldAdmin*

      Get well soon!
      Remember, recognizing when to call in sick and stay home – instead of infecting everybody else and dragging it out for yourself – is the best way to regain productivity! :-D

    19. Jean*

      Chicken soup, or veggie equivalent, and diluted fruit juices and lots of weak tea (decaf, regular, or herbal). Anti-post-nasal drip actions. And rest, lots of rest. Feel better soon, and feel free to ignore this advice.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        You might want to go to the doc. I’m out with the exact same symptoms and it had turned quickly to a bacterial infection. I feel slightly better after 4 days of antibiotics

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think I will! My husband has the same thing but is a few days ahead of me and he went to the doctor and was told it’s viral and they can’t prescribe anything, but I want to be sure mine hasn’t mutated into something else. And I found a doctor who makes house calls, so that is very tempting to try.

          1. Eyes Wide Open*

            Viral sicknesses are the worst. All you can do is stay in bed and be miserable.
            I would get viral pneumonia at least 3xs a year in grad school. Sucks.

          2. Lore*

            I am incredibly prone to throat issues like that–swollen, painful tonsils and completely losing my voice, but not testing positive for strep. I find Advil works better than Nyquil/cold medications, for what that’s worth…

          3. anoncmntr*

            Whoa, a doctor in the US that makes house calls? How did you find such a thing? Genuinely wondering, I thought this was something that didn’t exist at all today.

            1. JustaTech*

              In Seattle one of the big hospitals has started a house-calls program. There are limits on the patients (no one under 2 or over 65) and I don’t know how it bills to insurance, but it sure seems sensible to me, at least in a super-dense area where you’re not going far from patient to patient.

              1. Honeybee*

                I was about to say the same thing, but I also live in Seattle. A lot of Seattle-area companies have health insurance that include doctor house calls and 24/7 nurse hotlines.

            2. azvlr*

              The doctor making house calls has been a win for both my SO and the insurance company. Being disabled, it is difficult for him to get to a regular doctor. (It pretty much requires that I take a day off work to take him, and before we were together, his caregivers just weren’t that reliable.)
              Now, the doctor comes to the house on a regular basis. He has gone from being hospitalized once every couple of months to vastly improved health and no hospitalizations in over a year.
              It took a lot of persistence to get this set up for him, to put it politely. The logic of this escapes me. This service should be more widely available.

              1. anoncmntr*

                That sounds wonderful! I mean, that it’s working now so well and that his health is so improved. I’m glad your persistence paid off!

            3. Ask a Manager* Post author

              On Yelp! I was looking at reviews of urgent care places and I found a few places that send a doctor to you. He actually just left — says it’s viral, not strep, and gave me anti-inflammatory throat lozenges from Canada that are already working when nothing else has, along with a bunch of other advice on what OTC stuff to take and a prescription for a narcotic to help me sleep (I’ve basically not slept for the last two nights). I am relieved.

              1. anoncmntr*

                That’s great! Not just that you didn’t have to leave your house, but also that he was so helpful :)

                1. Dynamic Beige*

                  Yeah — you need sleep to heal!

                  If you can stand it/are allowed based on other medication, a client of mine is Russian and her “cure” for feeling sick is a shot of good non-flavoured vodka (Stoli) as cold as you can get it, straight from the freezer. Proceed directly to bed. I’ve done it a few times when I felt something coming on and it worked.

                  Another thing that’s nice in the cold weather is Chinese Quince Tea (also known as Citron Tea, Jujube tea). It’s like a cup of sunshine and full of vitamin C.

          4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I’m so sorry, Alison—that sounds awful. I just went through 8 weeks of really insane, rib-bruising, subconcussion- and nausea-inducing coughing: I caught a cold, then a bacterial infection, then a completely separate (non-viral and uncommon) infection that required an Rx and that took root b/c I was immune-suppressed after a round of antibiotics.

            This is a long way of saying I think it’s worth seeing a doctor because you may be dealing with a second infection that piggy-backed on the original virus. Also, I find Zicam can be really helpful for getting one’s voice back (it’s a zinc supplement to speed recovery, but it has a nice short-term effect of making your throat feel less awful). Saltwater gargling every 1-2 hours can also help (although the relief is brief). For serious coughs where NyQuil fails, I’m a Mucinex DM believer. And of course, lots of warm liquids (ginger lemon tea, peppermint tea, fennel tea) and oral rehydration can make a huge difference.

            Wishing you a speedy recovery!

          5. The Strand*

            I’m so sorry you’re feeling bad. You may consider getting something that can do nasal lavage, a neti pot or NeilMed bottle. It helps clear crud out of your system.

        2. Mephyle*

          A viral infection in the throat can open the way to getting a bacterial infection on top of it, so the fact that it’s viral doesn’t rule out that you might also be helped with antibiotics.

        3. Red*

          I am absolutely in agreement with this advice! If you can’t swallow, it’s so easy to get dehydrated, which on top of everything else, it would be a whole extra level of awful. If nothing else, head to your nearest urgent care – this is what they’re for! They typically try to have you in and out in about an hour, appointments are not needed, and the copay is usually somewhere between a sick visit copay and an ER copay.

          Though, I do ask that you wear a mask when you do that – they’ve been available in the waiting room in every medical environment I’ve visited lately, but it doesn’t always occur to people to put them on (I only think of it because I work in a hospital and it’s one of the requirements of the job that we not spread germs), so I always remind the sick people in my life that sharing is NOT caring.

      2. Amy*

        I had something similar last week and found the alka seltzer severe day/night worked much better than dayquil/nyquil. I only grabbed it because I had used up my supply of nyquil and the alka selter stuff was on sale at CVS.

      3. Adlib*

        Oh man, sounds like what my supervisor has. She was “out” sick yesterday (too sick even to WFH). She’s online this morning, but I’ll bet she still sounds terrible.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Throat-coat tea is really good too. In fact, next time I get sick, I think I’m going to add ginger and honey to my throat-coat tea.

      6. Clever Name*

        Yeah, it sounds like strep throat. How high is your fever? When I had strep, I had the worst sore throat of my life (I couldn’t swallow my own spit) and I had a fever of 104. And of course it was over a holiday weekend.

    25. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Hope you feel better, ma’am!

      Early morning works for me! Makes it easier to post before work. :)

  2. Joanna*

    Yesterday I saw a real ad for a real business school with the text “It’s the year 2033. Your employees aren’t all restricted to earth. Will you be able to connect them all?” So is intergalactic HR a thing there’s people working on now? What would that involve?

      1. Joanna*

        I wonder what the legal issues about employing aliens are? And would they get the same number of days off on planets with vastly longer or shorter days and years?

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          I look forward to the day we officially change it from Human Resources to Sapient Resources.

        2. Archive of Anxiety*

          There might also be discussion about whether the Aliens have an advantage compared to human labour forces due to their multiple limbs and advanced intelligence XD

          1. Lance*

            I mean, that depends, right? There’ll probably be some without any limbs, then we’ve gotta get into some really tricky disability policy changes.

          3. Jadelyn*

            New definitions for bona fide occupational qualifications – does this job *require* three arms, or is it just easier with three arms? Are you discriminating against humans by only hiring three-armed aliens for this position? Or vice-versa – are you discriminating against telekinetics by only hiring humans because you say this job *requires* physical manual dexterity?

        3. Cyrus*

          Boring serious answers: under current law, legal personhood only belongs to human beings and corporations they have created. Working with an alien would be governed by animal cruelty laws, not by workers’ rights laws. Any contract you make with one would be legally unenforceable, in general. And all relevant references to days and years in Earth law mean Earth days and years. All those laws would hopefully change if we make first contact or it otherwise becomes relevant, but it’s hard to say how until we see what those aliens are like.

          The really interesting question is time dilation. I don’t know what to expect about hours and days of work when time is flowing at different rates for managers and their employees, except that I’d expect things to get complicated.

          1. OhNo*

            Ooooh, I hadn’t even thought about time dilation. Neat! I wonder if it counts as overtime if you’re scheduled to work an eight-hour day but time passes more slowly for you. Would bosses have to do time-rate conversions when scheduling?

            1. Lillian Styx*

              I imagine the prospect of figuring these kinds of things out is what made Gene Roddenberry decide that Starfleet officers worked for the betterment of mankind and not wages…

            2. Slippy*

              I bet that banks would also on pay interest on the perceived time of your investments and not on the actual time passed because lets face it; time-related fraud seems like a logical next step for Wells-Fargo.

            3. Jadelyn*

              We might start paying on a percentage basis – ie, wage rate would be per 5% of your planet’s rotational cycle. So an “hourly wage” on Earth would actually be for 72 minutes of work (5% of 1,440 minutes in a day), but an alien worker on a planet with a 30-hour day would receive the same pay for 90 minutes of work.

              Which of course would lead to massive off-planeting of jobs to planets with longer rotational cycles so that corporations could either pay less for the same amount of actual time worked, or get more time worked for the same amount of pay. Followed by protests from workers on both sides. And so on.

              1. Slippy*

                We would need to build a tall wall in space to stop interplanetary criminals from coming here and stealing our rotational jobs!

                Side note: Yeesh I’ve had a lot of caffeine today…..

        4. Boop*

          Not only that, but what about leave for illness, etc? Aliens who lay eggs require less recovery time than the aliens who spawn by cell division and regrowth. Should everyone get the same amount of leave for such life events? These are very serious issues!

          2. Pixel*

            Dear AAM,

            After much discussion, me and the other egg-laying employees convinced HR to have an empty office dedicated to egg brooding. On several occasions I have heard co-workers of other species entering the brooding rooms while I was sitting quietly in the back. I suspect they were taking naps or interviewing for positions in other solar systems. I feel violated and seriously suspect their negative energy cracks my eggs (I know I may be a bit paranoid here, but you can’t be too careful). Is there any way to make it clear that brooding rooms are out of bounds to any non-egg-laying species?

        5. Pixel*

          How do you calculate an alien’s age for CPP/pension purposes? Do you use Earth years or whatever year is in their local planet? What abour very long- or short-lived species compared to humans?

        1. Ama*

          I don’t know if anyone else here has seen The Expanse on Scyfy (despite it being excellent they don’t seem particularly interested in letting anyone watch it – they still haven’t put the last two eps of season 1 on their streaming app). But even though it’s mostly a scifi mystery, it basically deals with all kinds of class and workers’ rights issues on an asteroid mine of sorts — one issue being that people raised primarily on Earth are actually biologically different than those raised in the artificial gravity of the mine.

          I don’t think they’ve addressed the time differential issue, though — they basically just go with “tech is so advanced you can talk to anyone, anywhere instantly.”

          2. Sophie*

            Yes, I absolutely loved the TV show! Even if I know exactly what is happening because I read the books (which I think is onto book number 4 now)

            Avasarala is just my favourite :)

      3. Creag an Tuire*

        That’s why I’m voting for Trump’s re-animated head in a jar in 2036.

        TRUMP’S HEAD/PENCE.EXE ’36
        “Build The Wall. Yes, In Space, Loser.”

    2. Folklorist*

      Have you guys seen this? Asgardia is a real space nation that’s currently taking applications. It’s not unfeasible! (Link in reply)

        2. nonegiven*

          IDK, the Asgard are supposed to be the good guys but the little grey guys with big heads just creep me the hell out.

        1. Dazed and Confused*

          Huh? Is there a reference I’m not seeing?

          From the website:
          1. The project’s philosophy starts at selecting the name for this new country – Asgardia. In ancient Norse mythology, Asgard was a city in the skies, the country of the Gods. It is the realisation of man’s eternal dream to leave his cradle on Earth and expand into the Universe.

    3. AMD*

      “Dear Ask a Manager,

      I think I might be in a hostile work environment, and I don’t just mean because of the constant exposure to theta radiation. I’m half-Klingon, and have worked hard to reign in my battle lust at work, however on my last three performance evaluations my boss has told me I am ‘over-emotional’ at work and need to be more ‘logical,’ but won’t give specific examples. I tried to go to HR, but they’re off-site and super focused on team building right now, so any mention of problems is met with a blanket statement of ‘You will be assimilated, resistance is futile.’ Can I sue for racial discrimination?”

      4. Hush42*

        “Also one of my co-worker’s thought it would be funny to stuff a Tribble in my locker. I HATE Tribbles!”

        1. AMD*

          “Our office is pet-friendly, but my coworker brought in her tribble once and now there are hundreds of them, and I have a terrible allergy to tribble dander!”

      5. Joanna*

        Dear Ask A Manager,
        Thanks for answering my question a few months ago about anti-Klingon discrimination in the work place. Unfortunately things didn’t work out and I’m now job hunting. I’m in the final stages of interviewing for a great job based out of a Martian city with many Klingon residents. I’m having a bit of trouble when it comes to references. Most of the beings I worked with at my last job at lunar base Thespian-Crunkoid are currently in transit to other jobs in the far reaches of the solar-system and even with the interstellar communication features on the iPhone 79s are difficult to reach. I can reach a few old co-workers from my time on a space station orbiting Jupiter but the challenges of space station employment are quite different to those of working at a planetary base. What should I do?

        1. OldAdmin*

          “Thanks for answering my question a few months ago about anti-Klingon discrimination in the work place. Unfortunately things didn’t work out and I’m now job hunting. I’m in the final stages of interviewing for a great job based out of a Martian city with many Klingon residents. I’m having a bit of trouble when it comes to references. ”

          Dear Joanna (is that an honorable name for a (half)Klingon?),
          There may be a way out of your reference quandary.
          As it is the Klingon way to show real gumption and to charge into a situation, I would suggest you put on full battle armor and turn up at your future job in person!
          I guarantee you they will be impressed by your forwardness!
          Signed,
          taj’IH

          (sncr)

          2. Creag an Tuire*

            Klingon AAM has the easiest job in the galaxy.

            #1. I want to tell our CEO to fire his incompetent assistant and hire me for her job.
            “Why would you sneak behind her back like a Romulan? If you want her job, just challenge her to honorable combat and kill her where she stands!”

            #2. People keep trying to get me to leave my home-based business
            “Are they suggesting your current job is inadequate? Tell them if they were not family, you would kill them where they stand!”

            #3. Withdrawing a reference after uncovering serious problems with someone’s work
            “Clearly, this worthless petaQ has stained your honor by accepting your reference. Find him at his new place of employment and kill him where he stands!”

      7. Amber Rose*

        Dear Ask A Manager,

        Hi from Chiron Beta Prime where we’re working for our robot overlords- I mean, protectors. Recently I was banished to a small asteroid, do you think it would be worth addressing at next week’so meeting that I feel isolated ? I miss chatting with the others about the futility of escape attempts.

        Thanks!

      10. MillersSpring*

        Dear Ask A Manager:
        I don’t like showing my thighs at work but it is part of the expected uniform for women at my workplace. Do you think I could ask my manager if I could wear the men’s uniform? Another issue is that while I graduated from my organization’s academy and I’m considered an officer at this, er, teapot factory, I’m essentially just answering the phone. I’m a minority but for crying out loud, another minority here (a man), gets to fly the factory! Is that illegal? If I can’t complain to my boss, I know that I can’t complain to my boss’ boss, because I always get the vibe he wants to kiss me. Hope you can help; our factory has several years left in its mission.

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          Oh god, TOS would be so much WTF-fodder on this site.

          “Dear AAM,
          I made a mistake at work and injured my department head (not seriously). Ever since then the department head has been treating me and all of the other female teapot engineers like crap because he has a “total resentment toward women”.

          I told HR and the next thing I heard, my boss had been ordered to take “therapy” — which turns out to be the Cap- er, CEO and the onsite physician taking him to a strip club! What the actual hell. Is this legal? I know we’re in outer space and the EEOC was apparently blown up in the Eugenics Wars, but this can’t be legal.”

    4. Boop*

      1) I think 2033 is a bit optimistic for planning interstellar personnel management. It’s 2016 and we haven’t even achieved flying cars yet.

      2) Can’t we just ask NASA?

        1. Fruity Tuity*

          Can you imagine the babies of today heading off to Mars University when they turn 18?? The cost of sending care packages to your kids would be astronomical.

          1. Lance*

            I guess that depends how fast teleportation technology comes along. ‘Til then, I can only imagine the costs and the time to delivery.

          2. Snazzy Hat*

            Well, Planet Express seems like a pretty cheap option. I mean their stock is worth less than toilet paper, and I heard they recently re-hired their entire staff at severely-reduced pay.

  3. YetAnotherAnon*

    A friend of mine is having a difficult time finding work. He has a GED that isn’t recognized everywhere and he has been out of work for a couple of years. He’s planning to go back to school, but until then, what kind of job can he find?

    1. .*

      Food service, entry level retail, possibly manufacturing depending upon location, physical labor like lawn care and snow removal. Nothing great, but income is better than 0 income.

        1. Dulcinea*

          In my experience telemarketing or telefundraiding jobs have such high turnover they hire most everyone who applies and are constantly hiring new people. Loke training a new group every week. Look for a company called integral resources and see if they have a facility near you.

        2. Two-Time College Dropout*

          I know call center jobs aren’t for everyone, but I worked in a call center for almost three years and LOVED it. The pay is usually a lot better than other entry-level low-skill jobs, and the hours are really flexible if the call center is open 24/7.

          Plus, the call center I worked in was by far the most diverse team I’ve ever been in– my ~30 person group had people of all ages, race, gender, ability, education level, you name it– which taught me a lot about how my own assumptions and expectations of How Work Works were far from universal.

          1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

            I’ll second this. I was at a call center for 8 years and the bonus potential was really good, plus it started at more per hour than other retail jobs. I know people that could hit the bonuses every time and bring home $40k+. I live in a super low cost of living area so that’s great money for this area.

          3. Kimberlee, Esq.*

            Yeah, I feel like there aren’t a ton of people that really *thrive* in the call center environment, but if you’re one of them, the world is kind of your oyster. Advancement potential, good wages, and a job that you don’t have to take home with you (which, even if the day is stressful, can make your life otherwise feel like a breeze!)

    2. Construction Safety*

      Construction. Skip residential (and light commercial) if at all possible. Look for high rise, stadium or industrial sites.

    3. A. Nonymous*

      I second construction if that’s available. Also places like Kroger or the Post Office. Bartending is also an option, but he’d have to be able to obtain the license

      1. Natalie*

        Worth noting though that bartending can be extremely competitive, especially for someone with no experience.

      2. BarManager*

        Please don’t encourage people with zero experience in the idea that they can just go out and get a job as a bartender.

        2. Not the Droid You Are Looking For*

          This. I’m always amazed when I hear someone suggest, “just pick up some bartending shifts.”

          1. Sunflower*

            So true. Even people with extensive serving experience can not get a job bar tending. A lot of places will not hire you unless you’ve been behind a bar.

            If someone has no experience, expect to start as a host or maybe barback.

          2. BarManager*

            I have to throw out so many resumes (also shows people aren’t really reading the ad/description where it requires 5+ years experience) and it’s a bummer because those people wasted their time as well as mine. Even in a neighborhood bar or casual restaurant, years of experience or knowing the right people and convincing them to hire someone completely green are necessary.

          3. Not So NewReader*

            Tending bar came as part of a package deal with one job I had. This is NOT something you just start doing one day. My boss thought I could watch the bar for a minute or two here and there. Oh boy. But it was one of many misconceptions my boss had and it was not long after that I left.

        3. Lily in NYC*

          I had lots of friends in college who worked as bartenders without having even one iota of experience. There are so many different types of bars that it’s entirely possible.

          1. Not the Droid You Are Looking For*

            That interesting to hear! One of my former employees just moved to NYC and she was trying to pick up a bartending gig to supplement her day job and even with years of experience she is struggling finding something.

            I’ll have to let her know to keep plugging away at it!

            1. Pilar*

              It depends on the place and what her experience is in. NYC is a very competitive market overflowing with highly qualified bartenders. I would look for places similar to what her exact source of experience is–sports bars or local watering holes may be one thing, while cocktail and wine bars can be quite difficult to break into. She might also try serving if she has experience there. (I did some serving here in NYC and my husband is a professional bartender. He was a knowledgeable, passionate drinks nerd, but got his professional start by networking. It can be done!)

    4. Monica*

      He should seriously try to look into waste management (garbage man). They actually make a lot of money! I have had a cousin and a friend who both worked in that field and really liked it, and the money is good! Plus, it is the kind of job not a lot of people THINK they would want to do, so maybe it wouldn’t be hard to get in?

      1. Coffee and Mountains*

        My neighbor is in recycling and loves it. Makes solid money, has a good schedule (if you don’t mind getting up early), and I think his truck has an arm now so he doesn’t even have to lift the cans himself.

      2. Master Bean Counter*

        Most of those jobs require a diploma and a commercial driver’s license. They are not entry level. They are semi-skilled. If he can find a job as a yard man at a dump he might have a chance with no skills. But nothing driving or equipment related. But if he can get in, they’ll train him for the next step.

        1. RKB*

          Yes – I know for my city all utilities and waste management are municipal positions. All municipal positions require a high school diploma or an equivalent.

    5. ZSD*

      I didn’t know that GEDs weren’t universally recognized the way high school diplomas are. What determines who recognizes it?

      2. AFRC*

        Yes, that’s really disappointing to hear. I wonder if it’s the school through which you receive it – like an ITT Tech for GEDs – where they aren’t properly accredited.

        1. OhNo*

          I thought the GED was a test that you could take that was the same nationwide – like the ACT or the GRE. So maybe he didn’t get a high enough score on it to qualify everywhere?

          1. Natalie*

            The GED is a specific, trademarked test, but it’s no longer the only one. There are two others on the market now and which test you take depends on which state you are in. So perhaps he took the test in one state, and then moved to a state that doesn’t recognize it.

            Passing the test is not actually a high school equivalency diploma, just the primary step in obtaining one. I wonder if he did not actually apply for the diploma itself, which should cross state lines just like a regular high school diploma.

              1. Natalie*

                I’m not sure, maybe! The rules are probably all different depending on what state he is in, but it would certainly be worth looking into.

      3. EmmaLou*

        Husband worked for a place that wouldn’t take GEDs. They said that a diploma showed that you were willing to put in the years and time. As a teenager? I don’t agree at all but that was their reasoning. Also some GEDs were because the person had some kind of trouble in their youth (ie jail time) so clearly that’s everyone’s story and I guess they don’t believe you can mature and change even if it was jail.

    6. ShippingGuru*

      He could try shipping companies like UPS and FedEx. They are hiring seasonal workers for the Christmas season soon (if not now). They also hire year-round for all kinds of positions. It used to be that UPS offered tuition reimbursement and they might still do that. If so, that would be a good way for him to go to school and get paid at the same time.

      2. Adlib*

        Seconding this! All the UPS/FedEx guys I’ve dealt with in business get a ton of great benefits like lots of vacation. If he can move into full-time after seasonal, that’s a great place to start.

      3. Honeybee*

        I was going to say this, too. My brother used to work at UPS before he got vocational training with his HS diploma and no additional experience. The pay was good and the benefits were decent, and he attended community college part-time while he worked there, if your friend is interested in that.

        3. Snazzy Hat*

          The best part is, this is hilarious whether you think of managing the pejorative or managing garden equipment as if they were your underlings.

          “Come on, team! We’ve got new soil to tend to!”

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      Try Safeway or Kroger (or any other large grocery chain in the area). My stepdaughter started working there when she was 16 as a customer service clerk. When she turned 18, she moved into a cashier position. After 6 months her boss told her to apply for a manager position, which she got. She turned 19 last month and is making about $20 per hour. She works part time and goes to school.

      The opportunities for advancement were there because like retail, a lot of the people hired in those entry level jobs are flaky, unreliable, and have zero work ethic. So the fact that she just showed up on time every day put her miles ahead of her peers.

      1. BadPlanning*

        One college summer, I worked at a factory where they daily filled in the work force with temps. There were a handful of other college temps too. Halfway through August, one of the full time workers sighed at lunch and basically said she dreaded the end of August since they lost the college temps. Not that we were stupendous at our factory work, but we were consistent. If you decided the job was okay in June, then you just worked all summer.

      1. Mirax*

        Depending on location a lot of these will require HS diploma at minimum, bachelor’s in larger cities.

    10. Natalie*

      Warehouse and manufacturing work are good options. A lot of them hire through staffing firms so he should look for industrial temp agencies.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      If he can find a way to get a CDL, he could probably afford to be chosey about who he works for. Some companies treat their drivers like crap, so he would have to watch out for that. But generally speaking if he likes driving and added bonus if he is interested in things on wheels, then this might be something to check out. I saw a job advertised here that paid almost $20 per hour for an escort vehicle driver for over-sized loads. Even I was tempted at that one. The ad said home by dinner time every night.

      The larger nurseries in your area, ones that stay open year round, might be something to check out also. Look for places that offer snow plowing services in the winter, that would be his winter time work. In the summer they will probably have him do landscape jobs. I don’t know how to say this- nurseries around here are not fussy about who they hire and they hire a wide range of people. It was the best job I ever had, but some people were involved in stuff that I chose not to be involved in. I did not want to go to jail. In general from what I have seen nurseries do not look too closely at your education or your other background stuff. They just want to know if you have an interest in their work.

    12. Snazzy Hat*

      Seconding temp work with warehousing or manufacturing. If your friend wants to work and he’s cool with those environments, he’ll be set. When I did temp work in a factory and later a warehouse, I loved what I did, and for the most part I could avoid the people I didn’t like. There were some circumstantial issues here and there: in the factory, it was a complete toss-up each day which department I would be working in, and my colleagues in Dept A were so annoying I started wearing earplugs to avoid listening to them; at the warehouse, I had difficulty lifting the two largest boxes, I was an excellent worker but didn’t know it because I never got feedback, and large orders sucked especially near quitting time since I was busting my butt while my same-shift coworkers were finished and sitting in the break room waiting to clock out at exactly 4pm.

      My s.o. is currently a temp at a different warehouse and LOVES the work. He already had experience in warehousing, but he has colleagues who started there years ago, and others who have been shoved into the place by their agencies. Additionally, his warehouse does regular temp-to-hire promotions, and the next round will include him even though he started in March. It’s an excellent field for blue-collar introverts due to the independence and responsibility.

  4. Pot Meeting Kettle*

    Just to share my job swapping woes. I changed a job recently because I had a lot of frustrations with my old job. I had thought changing a firm will help… but the firm put me in management, so instead of making things (which I love), I am now tasked with running between multiple people in the company, organizing schedules, typing up to-do lists (none of which I love). I am socially awkward and I hate talking to people. To make it worst, the new role doesn’t even pay better than my previous job. (they promised a pay raise… but depending on my job performance)
    Now I feel depressed and dread coming in each day, while praying that my phone rings up with an interview opportunity with another firm. The only thing that this job swapping confirmed to me is that I need a drastic change of industry, because I confirmed that what I hate most about this industry is the constant threat of deadline, more deadlines and bosses who don’t care how much overtime you work as long as you finish the things.

    I do have a question though, when you are in a new job that you hate, should you quit as soon as possible (even without another job offer?). I am worried that the boss is giving me more and more responsibilities. If I leave now, the current managers can still take back their responsibilities. If I leave, say, three months later where I got a job offer, the deadline will be looming and I will be leaving at the worst time possible for the office. What should I do?

    1. .*

      Find new job, then quit, and don’t worry about dumping your responsibilities right back on the now-former employer. It’s never a good time to quit, but businesses have to deal.

      1. Joseph*

        “It’s never a good time to quit, but businesses have to deal.”
        Frankly, I’d be worried if there was a “good” time to quit. Why? Because the common occasions when it *doesn’t* cause inconvenience to have someone leave unexpectedly are: (a) the company is struggling to find enough work to keep their current employees busy, (b) the employee’s job function is completely expendable, or (c) the employee is unproductive and should have already been fired.

          1. Liz L*

            It doesn’t sound like the pay raise is going to help with not liking the biggest part of your responsibilities. I say look super hard for something that appeals to you and jump as soon as possible. But don’t just up and quit unless you have a big cushion!

    2. AMD*

      If you got hit by a bus, the company would have to find a way to deal with your responsibilities. People suddenly being unavailable is a normal part of business. So if you get a new job offer, give notice and go without guilt about the responsibilities you’re leaving behind.

    3. Joanna*

      If you’re quitting because you have another job lined up reasonable employers will accept that sometimes people leave at inconvenient times and make it work. If you’re quitting with nothing lined up you can quit whenever you want but if finishing a couple of weeks earlier or later would make a big difference to the business it’s probably a good gesture to factor that into deciding your finish dare.

    4. Ayshe*

      As Alison always says, it’s not your job to make sure they’re covered. They will hire someone new if needed. If you can handle it I’d say stay but put the job search into hyperdrive.

    5. A. Nonymous*

      Have you discussed your concerns with your manager? There has to be a reason they put you in management despite it being a bad fit. It may help you to just be honest “I didn’t realize when I was hiring on that this would be a management position. I thought that I’d be filling more of an X role. Is there anything we can do to transition me to handling X instead of the managerial work?”

      I wouldn’t quit until a new job is lined up, but your situation may be different.

    6. Pot Meeting Kettle*

      Much thanks everybody! Yeah, I was wondering if I should quit now, but going by the group’s wisdom, I better wait till I worked a few months. :-) Thanks for the encouragement!

    7. Yetanotherjennifer*

      It’s to your credit that you are still thinking about the company while being so miserable in your job. But this is business and the best thing for the business aspects of your life is to get a new job and then give notice. You have no idea when you will find another job or what else could happen in the meantime and your financial security is more important than their level of convenience.

    8. BePositive*

      My colleague was in your similar situation. He was valued and my company rather keep strong performers then let them leave if they were unhappy if they can help it. He let his manager know and wanted to accommodate. Over a few weeks he volunteeraly ‘demoted’. Now he’s happier, his productivity is up. Both parties win. Best part is it made the rest of us respect my colleague more.

      If you have a good relationship with your manager, maybe you can discuss

  5. Folklorist*

    Just a quick update from a post the other week where I asked whether or not I should refer my mentally ill and frequently fired (but amazing in many, many ways) friend to a job at my company: I ended up referring her to a women’s clinic that had really helped me through a lot of my own depression issues and gave me some good career counseling. She was able to get in for therapy on a massively sliding scale!

    And just when I had decided to take everyone’s advice and pass the job listing on to her saying that I couldn’t necessarily recommend her–she got a job with a company that she had really wanted to work for for a long time but never had any openings. They have great insurance and telework, fall in line with her values/passions, and are all genuinely open people trying to make sure that their hard-working employees succeed. I think that she’ll be much happier there than she ever would be at my company! Overall, a win-win-win.

    4. NarrowDoorways*

      What a great conclusion! I found myself in a somewhat similar situation last year.

      I had a friend with severe depression that, even with counseling, she couldn’t get a handle on. While her job had been AMAZING with giving her leave, allowing unpaid absences after her PTO ran out, letting her to show up at 1pm on the days she couldn’t get out of bed, eventually it just wasn’t workable for them any more and she was fired.

      That did not have the happy conclusion and I would be terrified to ever recommend her. She recently left the area for a family support network across country. I have no out of state network contacts anyway.

    10. Snazzy Hat*

      That is so awesome, and it gives me additional hope that my mental illnesses aren’t lead weights guaranteed to prevent me from thriving in a job. {celebratory hot cocoa}

  6. Folklorist*

    Super-early insomniac ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!! I’m so not procrastinating, I’m not even sleeping. Today will be fun. /sarcasm (Post your non-procrastinatey accomplishments in reply.)

    Also, Alison, thanks so much for the Why Procrastination Is Good article yesterday. I’ve found all of the points it made to be true!! I often call my futzing “percolating” and there are many, many times where, when I put something off, some magical, perfect, unlooked-for source comes through that perfectly unlocks whatever piece of writing I’m stuck on and makes the whole thing better in ways I couldn’t have imagined. But yeah, sometimes you really just need to get those lingering emails, calls, and invoices out of the way.

    1. misspiggy*

      Yes to percolating! I just wish it were easier to know in advance how long things need to percolate for…

      1. bibliovore*

        yet, I have to say how helpful it is to check into AAM on Fridays and bookend tasks I never want to tackle.
        Expense reimbursement- WHY is this so hard for me? I have outstanding receipts from August!!!!
        Today. Today I will organize and document. Will check back later.

        1. TootsNYC*

          you aren’t the only one who ends up w/ reimbursement delays. I don’t know why I feel so guilty about it!

          Here’s what helped me w/ stuff like that:

          I automated it as much as I possibly could. When the forms were paper, I filled a bunch of them out at once. I made a folder w/ blank sheets of paper to tape the little receipts to, etc. And I made it a routine that every Monday I tape them onto the paper, and every month I just run through the procedures.

          I also started praising myself verbally when I filed them.

          and I began recognizing that filing my expenses was helping my employer.

          1. TootsNYC*

            I mean, I feel guilty about asking for reimbursement, somehow. As if I wasn’t allowed to spend the money.

            And then it’s just that I hate forms. Which the “automation” helps with, a lot! I do that w/ medical reimbursement as well–fill everything out, etc.

    2. Lillian Styx*

      I thought about this anti-procrastination post on Monday so I made a phone call I’ve been dreading and got a huge problem worked out in a matter of minutes! Thanks from the past!

    3. Junior Dev*

      I’m going to clean up my apartment this morning–I have plans to have friends over tomorrow and it’s not clean enough yet.

      1. EmmaLou*

        I shamefully swear that’s how some parts of our home ever get cleaned. Company’s coming! Get those cobwebs down! Ugh take OUT the recycling!

      2. Snazzy Hat*

        Search Google for “ufyh” and learn the wonderful ways to unf*&% your habitat. By the way, I learned about AAM through the UFYH facebook page. ^_^ The article “Why “Company Ready” is Good, But “You Ready” is Better” delves into having company over.

    4. Jules the First*

      The Germans have a great new word for productive procrastination: Merkelling. So called after the lovely Angela’s talent for usefully kicking any can a little further down the road until it either becomes irrelevant or consensus is achieved. I learned this marvellous word when Useless Girl was given her annual goals for this year…she has a tendency to take the wrong action too quickly.

      And now I’m off to finish the agenda for Monday morning’s meeting, which should have gone out a couple of hours ago….

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Emailed HR to see if my health screening went through so I can get my credits on insurance. I missed the nosy one we have at the office and had to go to my PCP for it. :P

    6. TootsNYC*

      I’ve come to value “percolating” (I call it that too).
      But I also beat myself up for procrastinating. I’ve been working on telling the difference.

      it helps that I’m getting better at figuring out WHY I’m procrastinating. Sometimes it’s because I don’t know what the right thing is to do; and sometimes that’s because I’m actually percolating. When I can figure that out, I give myself permission to percolate, but I try to pick a time that I will decide and act.

    7. Snazzy Hat*

      Got a call from s.o. regarding his new meds. He’s been approved for the manufacturer’s financial assistance program. Before he could finish worrying about “what does this mean for the bill I received a few days ago”, I offered to call the pharmacy (yay HIPAA authorization!) and ask them, adding that I knew exactly what program he was talking about & he didn’t need to worry. He then said I’m “the best”.

      As soon as I got off the phone with him, I wrote my notes for how the conversation with the pharmacy would go, called the place, and had all of my questions answered satisfactorily.

      Now I have to do some cleaning around the house, but I’m genuinely proud of being asked to do something and then immediately doing it and not having any snags.

  7. Greta*

    Hi, I’m 17 and I work weekends at a fast food restaurant (in my senior year of high school the rest of the time). Last week, the guy who has been bullying me since fifth grade was hired to work at my same restaurant. I’m pretty sure he applied to get to me. At school, he has pushed me down, called me terrible names, and has even hit me in the head with textbooks. At home he has texted me from different phone numbers pretending to be other kids at school (he has my number because once he pretended to be nice to me for weeks in seventh grade, and I thought he’d changed, so I gave it to him). I’ve never gotten a Facebook page because I am scared of this guy, and my Instagram is private to keep him away. I am terrified of this guy being around me at work so much, but I don’t know if there is anything I can do. He’s a master manipulator, and I can totally see him getting me fired while remaining angelic to management, as this is what he does at school. Does anyone have any advice? Can I just ask my manager to not hire him because I am scared of him? I am a good employee and have been working at the restaurant for a year.

    1. Joanna Holman*

      I don’t know if it would be appropriate to tell your manager not to hire him, but it might be a good idea to let them know this person has treated you very poorly in the past so they have some context for stuff they might observe

    2. Sunshine*

      Yes, talk to your manager and let him know that you’ve had trouble with this person in the past, to the point of physical violence. I know keep its upsetting, but be as calm as you can while you explain. They likely will not fire him, but if your manager is reasonable, hopefully he can managr your schedules so you don’t have to be there with theither bully, at minimum.

      Good luck. That’s a terrible position to be in..

      1. Greta*

        The only problem is that I know this guy has told them he’s only available on the weekends, so we would end up at least overlapping for a couple hours on Saturday and Sunday, and would most likely work together on Friday evenings.

    3. Incognitokiwi*

      This creep is stalking you. Please please talk to your parents and ask them to help you report this to the police. IANAL, but I would think you might be able to get a restraining order against him.

      1. Greta*

        My parents tall me he does these things because he likes me. They pay for my phone, so they’d have to change the number and they don’t want to. I’ve learned that they’re not much help with this issue.

        1. Greta*

          I forgot to also say that my parents have told me to just ignore him and he’ll stop, but that hasn’t worked so far. I’ve brought up getting the police involved but my parents say I’m over reacting. I told a teacher about it way back in sixth grade, but they didn’t handle it right and the bully found out I told on him, and that’s when he started pushing me down and tripping me. I am scared of what he might do to me if I go to the police. I still have almost a whole year of school with him.

          1. TL -*

            Tell the principal or talk to the school counselor. Tell them what was done last time and how it didn’t help. Keep the text messages and show them to the powers that be.

            1. Greta*

              The text messages are all from different numbers, though, and he pretends to be different people. I don’t really have any proof that he’s the one behind it. It’s just my word against his, and like I said, he’s basically a model student when the right people are watching him. My school is not good with bullying. One of my bully’s friends put a pencil through a girl’s hand two years ago, and he went to a psychiatric hospital but is back now and even has some classes with the girl he hurt.

              1. TL -*

                Going to a psychiatric hospital is a big, big, big response! Is the kid still bullying your friend or has that resolved?
                I would say that kind of response is more heartening than not. You should go to the principal.

              2. LD*

                And you seem to be saying that because something you tried before didn’t work, that you don’t think it will work this time. Don’t fall into that trap! Try again! People often have to try multiple times before they get the help they need. Tell everyone! Show the texts to your friends and your parents and the counselors and your teachers and the principal and even your boss and your coworkers and even your doctor the next time you go for a physical! It may feel like there is nothing you can do, but you have more resources and power than you know. Find someone you trust and tell them what’s going on. You deserve to have someone on your side. Be safe and take care of yourself. We are rooting for you.

              3. LD*

                Also, you (or your parents) may be able to make that number switch without a fee by telling your provider that you are getting harassing text messages and need a new number. It’s not news to cell or phone service providers that these things happen and people need help.

            2. Laura*

              Yes, this. You are probably at a different school now and even within districts that can be a difference. Bullying has gotten so much more attention now that they are more likely to act. My father was wondering how a 12 year old we know could be bullied and was shocked at all the ways I mentioned and how many I experienced.

            1. Annony For This One*

              I once had a run in with someone at work. It was progressing as time went on. I finally just popped into the police station to say that I only wanted them to make a note of something, put it in a record…once I mentioned the persons name they police told me they knew the person. UGH!

              This doesn’t seem like your situation, but if I were in your situation I would strongly consider speaking with your manager and put an application in across the street (is there another fast food place close)? Please note: What I would do is not necessarily right. But I like to remove myself from situations and potential situations.

          3. Argh!*

            ugh I thought people were more enlightened these days. That’s the kind of feedback I got way back in the 1960s when I was bullied!

            Is there a women’s shelter near you? They would have better advice.

          4. Collie*

            So, a few things, from someone who also felt trapped in high school (although under different and less violent circumstances) —

            It sounds like, despite your crappy experiences and lack of support, you’ve got a good head on your shoulders. That will take you far. My guess is, one or both of you will be headed out of town for college in a year, and I know a year is a long time, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Focus on that.

            But more importantly, I think it’s time to check in with a teacher or guidance counselor again. I realize having a bad experience doing that in the past can make doing so now daunting. But this has got to stop. I know it’s exhausting to even think about, but you deserve far better than this. Please find someone you trust and talk with them about it. Emphasize that you’d like as much anonymity as possible if you like. But please speak up. Not only will you be helping yourself, but if someone can address whatever issues this kid has now, hopefully he won’t continue this pattern of abuse with others.

            As far as what you actually asked about, I’ll echo the others and say get to your supervisor/the hiring manager as soon as you can. Be honest but professional in what you tell them. Try to leave emotions out of it and state things factually and objectively. I’d say don’t be too specific (listing exact instances, for example), but don’t be too vague, either (and I’d personally avoid the word “bullying” because I feel it comes off as a little naive — others may feel differently here, though; and I don’t say this to belittle you or your story).

            Wishing you all the best and wellness.

            1. Emac*

              Yes, I think using the word “harassing” instead of bullying might get a better response from your boss. I think it puts it in more of a “what he’s doing is illegal not just school kid stuff”, which your boss might take more seriously.

              1. Collie*

                I considered that, but “harassing” has a different connotation in the workplace, IMO, that leans toward legal issues of protected classes. I’m not convinced that’s what’s happening here (although it could be; I don’t have all the context), so I’d stay away from that word unless it’s clear that it’s appropriate.

                1. Observer*

                  Yes, but in this particular case, it probably has weight. If her parents really think he “likes” her, then there is probably good reason to think he’s doing this to her because she’s a girl. (ie he would be less likely to treat a guy that way.)

                  THAT does make a difference. But, also harassment can be non-gender (or other protected class) related. The fact that he’s using masked numbers to text her sounds like it’s falling into that territory.

            2. Tex*

              This and please keep a diary with lists of what happened with dates, phone numbers, etc. Sometimes verbal description does not convey the problem enough but if they see a written list of with a pervasive pattern of harassment they (parents, school officials, police) might be more inclined to see something going terribly wrong. For example, if you bring up the bullying once in a couple of months with your parents, they might assume that the harassment is just sporadic instead of every week or every day. That might wake them up to the fact that this is making your life miserable. And if it’s gone so far as affecting your job, your social life (where you choose to hang out or avoid), then it is legal harassment and there are protections against it.

          5. Ms. Anne Thrope*

            Wow, this is 1960s advice.
            –If you ignore him, he’ll stop. “Well, that hasn’t worked in the last 6 years, Mom, so now what?”
            –He’s doing it because he likes you. “That’s nice, but I don’t like him. I need him to stop. Also, since when is it ok to hit someone you like? Really, Mom?”

            Please talk to the school, tell them that last time you did that he found out and retaliated, and if he touches you again go to the police. Tell your boss that this guy has assaulted you in the past, so please keep him away from you.

            And continue to know that it’s not your fault, you haven’t brought it on yourself, and this isn’t how men who like’ you are supposed to act. And be careful, because this behavior escalates. Don’t let him get you alone.

            Good luck!

            1. Artemesia*

              Your parents have really dropped the ball — this kind of advice is classic ‘how not to help your kid with a bully’ advice. But at 17 you are not a little kid — you can take some responsibility for standing firm i.e. talking with your manager, filing a police report if he continues to assault you etc. I hope you can find some adult counselor or coach or whatever who is not a complete waste of skin and will step up and assist you with this. You know you are not overreacting and your parents are useless here so it is on you to take some steps to protect yourself. And make sure you are not assigned to work with this guy alone ever.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Right on!

                OP, parents who don’t know how to handle a bully, cannot teach their kids how to handle a bully.

                You are 17, you WILL have credibility with the police and your boss. Please talk to them.

          6. Emac*

            I’m so sorry, this makes me so angry for you. As others have said, your parents are definitely dropping the ball. I did a quick search for “anti bullying help” and “anti bullying support” and there were a lot of good sites and groups, both in the US and in other countries. Some of them had materials to help educate parents on helping their kids deal with bullies – maybe you could give yours some of that information?

            The “he’s doing it because he likes you” is especially infuriating. There are just so many things wrong with that attitude. If you’re a regular reader here, you’ve probably seen Captain Awkward mentioned – she might have some advice on how to deal with the bully or your parents!

            1. Honeybee*

              Oh yes! Captain Awkward would be a great resource and she’d give you some excellent scripts to use with the adults in your life. And her army of commenters will give you support, just like here. You don’t have to wait to hear back from her to start acting, but it might be worth writing in.

            2. Tempestuous Teapot*

              I don’t really care why he’s doing it. You are not responsible for his emotional dysfunction. Preschoolers can learn how to handle themselves respectfully and he’s nearly an adult. Follow the great advise above. And hold firm. Yes, he is harassing you, yes, he has assaulted you. Yes, he retaliates when you report, yes, he escalates, and abuses the trust of mutual acquaintances to emotionally isolate you.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Amen.

                This turns my stomach- he’s doing it because he likes you. If this is so acceptable then why isn’t everyone doing it? The answer is because this is NOT acceptable behavior, no how, no way.

                I remember in grammar school a kid hit me on the shoulder everyday. I had a bruise that would not heal from it. By lucky chance my father worked with his father.
                My father told his father. And when the kid did not quit, my father told his father again. And again. Finally it stopped. The excuse was he liked me. All I saw was a hitter that I wanted nothing to do with. I ignored the kid for the remainder of our school years. But I often wondered if his father beat the kid to make the kid stop beating me.

                OP, keep telling someone until you find someone who takes action and brings this to an end. Your parents are not going to be action-taking people. Move on, find someone else, perhaps a trusted relative, a favorite teacher, a well-respected coworker, keep going until you find that person.

                1. Dynamic Beige*

                  This turns my stomach- he’s doing it because he likes you.

                  Yeah, and what the hell kind of parents *want* their kid to date or at least be kind to someone who hurts them? That makes absolutely no sense.

          7. Althea*

            Ugh. First of all, ignoring bullies doesn’t work. Asserting yourself can.

            I do think you should involve adults, and ones that you think are sympathetic – not ones that you think will react like your parents. Also, tell friends or others whenever an incident occurs.

            And – people won’t be hoodwinked by the different cell phone numbers, just like you aren’t. Only people who are looking for an excuse to do nothing will PRETEND they don’t know it’s the same person. This kind of thing is very transparent.

            But also, I think you should enroll in a self-defense class, or a martial art. You may never need to use it, but it can really help your confidence to think that if he ever grabs or touches you, you can twist his arm behind his back, or smash his knee with the right kick. I promise it doesn’t take long to learn some basic moves and it will make you feel a LOT better – no matter what the teachers / police / managers around you do.

            1. INFJ*

              Good point about others looking for an excuse not to do anything.

              They’re probably worried about the ramifications of accusing this “model student”

          8. Former Borders Refugee*

            Your parents are wrong. They are wrong and you are not crazy. This is 12 kinds of bullshit and I am sorry that the adults in your life are not stepping up to protect you.

            I also had a bully and while the administration took his side, I had a few teachers who took mine. Ask a teacher that you trust if you can meet with them and lay it all out- everything. Don’t worry about the “he said/she said” dynamic and see if they have any advice. (also the word “lawsuit” scared the shit out of my school and that’s how we got them to take action. I’m just saying.)

            And I second bring it up again with your parents- write out what you want to say before hand if you have to so you don’t miss anything because they start getting dismissive- and point out that this has been going on for YEARS and he will not stop and that tripping and hitting you is not a sign of “liking” you.

            He is terrorizing you. Your feelings are valid. Your experience is valid. This is happening to you. Best of luck.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Yeah, the fact that this has been going on for years speaks volumes about the nature and extent of the problem.

            2. TootsNYC*

              I agree you should go to every and any teacher you trust.

              Get as many grownups as possible on your team.

              also, you don’t need to prove who sent the texts. Just be sure the principal or guidance counselor knows that someone is sending them. because if ANYone is sending you nasty texts, the need to know, and they’re obligated to do something about it.

          9. Junior Dev*

            On a side note–when I had a stalker in high school my parents and family members said similar things–“he likes you,” “just ignore it.” Please know that your parents are wrong. This is not an ok or normal way for someone to be treating you. I’m so glad you are asking for advice here and standing up for yourself.

            Sadly, there are people in the world who do awful things, and sadly sometimes the people who should have your back will have more sympathy for your abusers. (Harassing and physically assaulting you is abuse.) It is not your job to be sympathetic to people who want to hurt you. It is your job to keep yourself safe from them. Please don’t let your parents’ unfortunate comments warp your view of how people should treat each other.

            As for the work situation–I would talk to a manager, hopefully one who knows you and likes you if there are multiple. Explain that you have been harassed and physically assaulted by (name), who was just hired, and you would like (specific measures–maybe him never working the same location as you, or never having to close the store alone).

            Also, and it sucks and is unfair, but if work doesn’t or can’t help protect you from him, there is no shame in quitting and finding a new job if that’s what you have to do.

            1. Chalupa Batman*

              This is what I wanted to say, only better. It is not a compliment when someone hits or trips you, it is an ASSAULT. Your post doesn’t give any indication that your parents are uncaring, just that they aren’t understanding the severity of the issue. Lots of people think all teenagers are drama llamas and that it does them a disservice to intervene (“she needs to learn to deal with these things herself”). Greta, please try talking to your parents again and emphasizing that you are afraid for your physical and mental safety around this person and need their help and support. You have changed your behavior (staying completely off social media is pretty unusual anymore) to avoid attacks from him. You are almost an adult, this is not kid drama, and this is not something any adult would be expected to tolerate. I’m sorry this has been happening to you.

            2. Dynamic Beige*

              Or if you don’t have any specific ideas on what you would like, ask the manager what they would suggest could be done (separate shifts? you no longer work weekends?). If their answer is “get over it”/”it’s not my job to mediate your petty high school drama” or something similar, time to hand in your first resignation. Unless this is the only place in town, there has got to be another place you could get a job at.

          10. Whats In A Name*

            This is not a case of him pulling your ponytail in the school yard to get your attention. Throwing books at your head and pushing you down/tripping you in the hallway is physical abuse. I am sorry that your parents are not seeing the difference in these 2 things, but I agree with others who have said to go to your school counselor. I don’t know about principal, but a counselor should keep the source confidential.

          11. blackcat*

            Do you have a teacher now who you trust? I know it hasn’t been handled well in the past, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t an adult around you now who can help. You could even approach a teacher you had last year (or even before that), if you feel more comfortable.

            You need an adult on your side. I used to teach high school, and I would absolutely want a student to tell me if something like this was going on. I was even in a situation once where I didn’t trust the administration to help the student (private school, the bully had rich parents, and I had seen that situation go down before), so I mostly served as a sounding board/offered to moderate conversations between the student and her parents. I was able to get the parents on the kid’s side–because they believe my assessment of the seriousness even when they didn’t believe their child.

            I guarantee you there is at least one teacher who knows you who can and will help you. You may need to choose wisely, but there is some teacher you can talk to.

            1. Snazzy Hat*

              Even if you don’t trust any of your teachers but you have a friend who has an awesome trustworthy teacher, you can always go to that teacher even if s/he has no idea who you are. Hell, if you have a friend with awesome parents, maybe you can go to them too.

              You don’t have to deal with this abuse or this garbage. Plus you’re 17 years old and in the workforce; you can talk to your manager (see the amazing examples elsewhere in this thread) and either your manager will react poorly and you can just get a job at a similar establishment (I know it’s easier said than done, but if you can simply go to a different franchise, that year of experience is going to say “you don’t need to train me because I know this specific system”), or your manager will be supportive and might even help you with restraining orders & whatnot.

          12. Observer*

            Well, can you point out to them that you HAVE been ignoring him, and it hasn’t worked?

            Put together a list of the worst texts he has sent you in the last 3 months and show them ALL to you parents in one shot, so they can see what he’s really doing.

            Also, point out to your parents that it makes ZERO difference “why” he’s doing this. It’s nasty and he is physically hurting you, and it needs to stop. Period. Full stop.

            If he hits you again, please call the police. Even if he does it in school or at work.

            And, try talking to someone at school, as well. There has been increased awareness of bullying in the last few years. And, it’s new staff as well. You might have better success.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              OP, you can even tell your parents that you WILL be calling the police, if he bothers you again. Take the decision out of their hands. Tell the school authorities also.

              Unfortunately, it seems that the bullied, battered person has to take the lead sometimes. But you have spent years (too long) following their advice and it has not worked.

            2. Dynamic Beige*

              I know that this may be illegal, but you’ve got a phone OP… can it record conversations? If this little punk is putting on the angel face saying “I would never say that” in true Trumpian fashion, some footage or recordings would bring that lie to light. Also, agree with showing your parents the texts and keeping a copy. Because if you do go to the police, that shows a pattern and it shows that he’s deliberately targeting you through different numbers.

          13. TootsNYC*

            Call a hotline for battered women. Seriously. Go straight to them.

            If he escalated when you told on him once, then you want guidance.

            And absolutely, sit down with your manager and tell him what this guy has done. Draw up a list on paper, write it out, and then read it off. FACTS, “he called me and said this,” and “he pushed me down the stairs” and “he hit me on the head.”
            And then when your boss says, “really?” say, “I am not making this up.”

            Also start looking into a job at Wendy’s or something.

            All my sympathies.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              OP, it might be that your boss is very interested in what you are saying. I have seen some bosses realize that they are clueless about how younger people interact with each other. The bosses went with what their employee said. They know their employee to be a good worker and someone who does not complain regularly about others. So if that good employee said, “hey there is a problem here!”, the boss actually LISTENED. Take heart, OP. There is hope here.

          14. Honeybee*

            Your parents are wrong, Greta. I cannot stress this enough. I wish we did not tell our young women that men who mistreat them just like them. Even if it were true, it’s still inappropriate and he should stop. I’m not saying this to bash your parents, but simply because I don’t want you to internalize that message that this attention is somehow flattering and you should just ignore him. He’s been bullying you for 7-8 years straight, from what it sounds like. This is a person who has verbally bullied you and physically assaulted you as well as harassed you over the phone, and now he is stalking you. You are terrified of him. Listen to your instincts!

            Definitely speak to your manager, but others are right that you don’t need your parents to go to the police to make a complaint about this person. It doesn’t matter what you don’t know for sure; even if they don’t do anything right this moment, if god forbid they would need to do something later you have started some file. I would also definitely talk to your principal and your guidance counselor.

            Don’t let anyone minimize this for you!

        2. Jessica*

          OH MY GOD! Your parents should be ashamed of themselves. They are condoning abuse and violence by writing it off as he LIKES you? https://www.babble.com/parenting/never-tell-our-daughters-hes-only-mean-because-he-likes-you/

          I honestly don’t know why people are saying not to tell the boss to not hire him. If you were in your 30’s, this would be 100% something you would tell your boss to stop the hiring. There have even been similar questions on this site to that effect. I second the person who said to take legal action.

          What we are teaching our kids is acceptable in school is insane. If he was her boyfriend and hitting her, and stalking her, you would all have a different response.

          1. Lance*

            The issue is the sort of connotations ‘don’t hire this person’ can have. ‘Please keep this person away from me’ or ‘this is a person I’ve had frequent issues with’ give much more context, and aren’t a case of stepping directly into a hiring decision; managers will probably be a lot more receptive that way.

            1. TootsNYC*

              Don’t pitch it as what you want; pitch it as, “I have experiences with this guy that I think you should know about. Here is what I personally have experienced with him.”
              And then at the end, say, “I will not feel safe if he is working here.”

              and leave it at that.

        3. Lady Bug*

          If your parents won’t change your number you can get an inexpensive prepaid/non-contract phone and use that instead.

          1. Greta*

            Do they make smartphones like this? I never call anyone, I just use my phone to text people and take pictures and play on the Internet.
            Also if my parents saw me using a crappy phone and not the phone I asked for and they bought me and pay for, I’d be in a lot of trouble.

            1. TL -*

              Well, would you rather be in trouble or free from harassment? You can get your own phone plan, or a pay as you go phone with the money you earned. Your parents are free to cancel your phone line.

              Also, serious question: what’s the worst they will do to you? If it’s reasonable yelling/scolding or grounding, well, you took care of something they wouldn’t. Let them react to that how they will.

            2. TL -*

              Is getting away from the bully worth the reaction from your parents?
              Just because your parents would be angry about something doesn’t mean you can’t do it. You’re 17; you get to have agency over your life. Decide what you’d rather have: no texts or happy parents and then go from there.

            3. anonderella*

              Greta,

              First: Please continue to look for ways to improve this situation for yourself. You will clearly have to be your own white knight here.

              Yes, Cricket offers a handful of smartphone options. Plans are non-contract, about $35-55 a month for unlimited texts/calls, plus like a 1 or 2 gig data cap – so you can still use the internet after you’ve gone beyond the allotted data gigs, it just slows down a bit. I stream music in my car on the way to work and home every day, so I use mine up pretty fast, but using a music service like Pandora instead of the browser to stream music works much better. – essentially what I’m saying is, I have never had any other service but Cricket, their service has always been reliable in every state I’ve lived in or traveled to (the Midwest, the South, and lots of Florida – though I don’t spend much time in very, very rural areas), and I’ve never been extremely disappointed by the smartphones they offer. You won’t get your choice of any phone out there, but check out their website and see if any phones catch your interest.

              What I really want to say is this – they are your *parents*; they WILL get over you getting a new phone. You know why? Because unless they are psychotic, there WILL be occurrences in the future that will matter more to them (both good and bad; both your fault and not); are they really going to hold changing your phone without their permission over you forever? If they understood that you are willing to risk their respect for you, by not using the phone they bought you, in order for you to feel *safe*, do you think that would that change anything? On the other hand, if they think you are overreacting, do you really need them to be understanding of what actions you take – it sounds like they are coming from a skewed perspective.

              I leave you with this; I know I was not a very independent 17-yo financially (sounds like you have a step up on me at that age, since you are already working steadily! awesome, btw) but there was an incident the month after I turned 18 (a long-ago January), where my cousin, who was my same age, had gotten into a horrible car wreck; laid out in hospital bed for months, broken arms, leg, head, everything. Truly awful.
              She got out, and I went to visit her, and ended up driving her around to her friends’ houses who had also been in the wreck with her, but who escaped with way less injuries; I’d always been told, if you are going to be late coming home, just let us know – so I did. I was going to be about 30 minutes late, coming in at 10:30 instead of 10. Most of my friends did not have a curfew at 18 yo, but hey. I feel you on maybe feeling like your parents control your life.
              Anyway, I got grounded from the TVs in the house for the rest of the time I lived in that house. Until September, when I left for college. Not kidding – mom&stepdad put a PIN on the TVs, and wouldn’t tell me what it was. This meant I could only watch what they were watching; and lord no, I could not request a channel change. I could not watch it without them, etc etc.
              These things they hold over you, they are just things. I want to say you are stronger than needing a smartphone, but kids are different nowadays, society is different, and I accept that.

              Lastly: My dad was a deadbeat drunk/junkie/selfish/(albeit *lucky*)/asshole for my entire life; he is about to inherit half a million dollars – do you think this changes my relationship with him? No. I don’t want that in my life; he can’t buy my love and respect. Stay strong, be safe – things will be better for you without this bullyloser in your life.

            4. LadyKelvin*

              Smart Talk (online or from walmart) is a prepaid plan for unlimited everything for $45 a month. Since I have it to pay automatically I get a couple dollar discount too. You can bring your own smart phone and they use the AT&T and Verizon towers instead of building their own, so you can pick whichever network you want to be on based upon what’s most reliable in your area. Both my husband and I have brand new smartphones on it, so I encourage you to look into it. Since you’re working I’ll assume you have some spare money and can pay the $45 a month to get away from this guy. Good luck.

            5. Observer*

              If your parents won’t change your number, then get yourself a new phone (and yes, they don’t have to be hugely expensive) and give your parents back the phone they pay for.

              They won’t like it, I’m sure, but the won’t be able to claim that you are “wasting their money”. Just keep on repeating, like a broken record “I shouldn’t have to keep getting texts from someone I can’t stand.” It doesn’t matter if “he likes you”, “you’re over-reacting”, “you’re being a drama queen” etc. “I don’t have to keep getting texts from someone I can’t stand.” “Just ignore him” gets “This is how I ignore him.” Any buts gets another repeat of the same two lines.

              If you have $200 to spend, you can get a shockingly good phone. If you don’t have that kind of money, look for last year’s models, and worst case a “junk” phone in the $80 range. It will keep you going for a while.

            6. nonegiven*

              Offer to pay the charge for changing phone number yourself. Tell them it is worth it to escape the harassment.

              1. TheAssistant*

                You can get a phone number changed for free in cases of harrassment. Before I got my restraining order, my ex called me/texted me all the time threatening to make me pay or kill my friends (he was a winner). I called the phone company, explained I was a victim of stalking and was there anything they could do about the change fee, and boom! New number, $0.

              2. LD*

                There may not be a charge if she explains that she’s being harassed. The provider may be willing to make the change at no charge.

            7. Dynamic Beige*

              You can always give it back to them. “Mom, Dad, since I have a job now, I want to start paying my cellphone bill. So I’m going to get a prepaid one.” Or, “Mom, Dad, can I get a new phone number? Because that creep who has been abusing me for years is still at it and I want it to stop. (show texts) I don’t care if you think it’s cute or that he likes me, this is a big part of the reason why I’m not doing well in school, I feel like there is a target on my back constantly. I never know when he’s going to trip me or push me into the lockers again. Now, he’s gotten a job where I work and I’m not even safe there any more.” If they refuse, hand the phone over to them, thank them for their generosity and go get your own — be very careful to whom you give the number.

          2. TootsNYC*

            Also, consider blocking or not answering any calls from numbers that aren’t on your “OK” list. And trim that list way down.
            Use ringtones, maybe? Pick the short list of numbers that are OK (besetst friends, Mom & Dad, manager at work), and assign them ringtones. Set all other calls to silent, maybe, or leave them at the default and simply never answer them; let them go to voicemail.

            And ignore the voicemail.

            2. Greta*

              He’s never actually called me, it’s all just texts, and as I’ve said, he uses different numbers. So I block them after they come through, but I can’t pre-emptively block them.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                This may not be the best advice. But I would consider forwarding each one of those texts to my parents until they changed their tune about my phone number. Let them share the full experience with you so that they can learn exactly what is going on here.

                1. Elle*

                  This is good advice. Perhaps this will help in getting your parents to stop burying their heads in the sand.
                  Greta, I have a 20 year old daughter and a 17 year old son, and there is no way in hell this would be going on for them for as long as it has for you. Your parents HAVE dropped the ball. My guess is that they are either not fully grasping what is going on here, or they don’t know what to do. I’m so sorry you’re going through this!! I like the advice you are getting from the commenters here. It sounds like you will need to advocate for yourself here. You are worth it.

        5. Bad Candidate*

          Your parents are idiots and wrong. Abuse is not love (or like). Can you block him on your phone?

          1. Greta*

            He never calls from his own number. I know he uses some of his friends’ phones to text, but other times, I have no idea whose phones he is using. Maybe his friends’ parents, if they leave them unattended? Every time I get a text from a number I don’t recognize, I block it, but he still manages to send really awful texts to me a couple times a month.

            2. Case of the Mondays*

              Talk to someone at the phone store. You might be able to use google voice as an alternate text/call number and block all other calls/texts to your phone except the google voice pass through.

        6. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          He DOES NOT do these things because he likes you. This is the worst thing we teach girls. Please, please go to the highest level manager that you trust and explain how he has treated you. Also, go to a school counselor and tell them what has happened. And report EVERY new instance. No matter how small. If your parents won’t get on board, how about an aunt, uncle, grandparent, etc? This is the exact type of behavior that escalates into domestic violence.

          Again, this is not how people should treat other people. This is not how someone that “likes you” should treat you.

        7. Yetanotherjennifer*

          This is not what good people do when they like someone. This is not the good kind of socially akward attention. This sort of attention is really not even about you and anyway, you get to choose what kind of behavior you will reward, tolerate or stop. You do not have to be passive and understanding to a person who is bullying you and being abusive. He had proven time and time again that your ignoring his behavior doesn’t stop him. If your parents can’t help you with this then it’s time to find someone else to help. Maybe a different teacher or a guidance counselor or even the police. I don’t think that’s an overreaction at all. And maybe a new job would be a good idea as well. Your safety is more important than his feelings.

          1. Yetanotherjennifer*

            Sorry if I sound shouty here. I have a teen daughter and our entire year has been full of teachable moments about consent and relationships. I think it would be helpful to your case to develop a timeline of everything you remember he has done to you and what you have done about it. Use dates where you can and mark the entries where you have proof in the form of a witness or text or something. Then show your parents. Hopefully this will help them realize the true nature of the situation and they will back you up in getting help. Good luck, I’ll be thinking of you and I’m sure others here will be too. Stop back and give us an update.

        8. Michelle*

          No, Greta, he doesn’t do this because he “likes” you. He does this because he is a bully and enjoys the high he gets from bullying you. Please talk to your manager and let them know how he has treated you.

          I really, really, wish people/parents would stop that telling kids that he/she does that because they like you. I feel like it’s so harmful to keep perpetuating acts of violence (pushing people down/hitting them with books, etc.) with love.

          1. Greta*

            I don’t believe he likes me, but my parents do, and that’s why they say to just ignore him and he’ll go away. I stopped telling them about things he does a few years ago because they would just keep saying, “Oh, ignore him long enough and he’ll leave you alone.” My best friend’s mom knows about the stuff and would get involved if I let her, but my dad is one of those people who thinks you don’t spread your business around, and if he found out I was telling other people that he and my mom weren’t helping me like I want them to, I would probably be grounded forever and not allowed to see or talk to my best friend.

            1. Lance*

              Honestly, I’m just going to say it: let her get involved. Your parents are clearly completely useless (as I’m sure you’ve more than figured out by now), and should be told flat-out that you need someone to do something, because frankly, there are times in people’s lives when they absolutely need help (don’t spread your business around? that’s practically telling you ‘solve your own problems’ when you don’t have all the tools to do that).

              Sorry your parents are completely unhelpful, and I hope you can find a way to resolve this.

              1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

                Yes, absolutely, let her get involved. Let your Dad have a fit over it. Maybe tip her off that you didn’t want her to get involved initially because you were afraid they would keep you from seeing them. She might even be able to spin it that she saw it independently, or that her daughter did, and felt a duty to step in. (That’s what I would do in her shoes.) You need an adult on your side.

                In the meantime, re: work, I agree with the advice to not tell your manager not to hire him per se, but definitely tell your manager about your concerns with working with him (especially alone).

                1. Not the Droid You Are Looking For*

                  Please, please, please let your best friend’s mom get involved. You need an adult you can trust in your corner.

            2. Marcy Marketer*

              Please, please, please let your best friend’s mom help you. You need an advocate. You need an adult who can champion for you and help you navigate available solutions.

              His behavior has a high likelihood of escalating to serious violence. He is displaying classic abuser behavior; he is more than just a bully. Abusers hide behind their sterling reputations and abuse their victims in private. This kind of abuse is really hard to escape from, but it is possible. Here’s what you need to do:
              1. Gather a “team you.” Team You is everyone who is on your side, believes you, and is going to help/protect you. They are going to walk you to class, make sure you’re never alone, and record the abuse if they see it. They are going to be key witnesses; when the adults say, “Alex is such a nice guy! You’re probably over thinking it,” Team You is going to say, “Alex’s behavior is NOT okay and we need your help to stop it.”
              2. Start documenting his behavior with authorities. It doesn’t matter if you don’t have “proof.” You are not a detective; it’s not your job to gather proof. Your job is to inform the police of harassment. Each time you go to the police, tell them you want to file a report of harassment. Ask them if they’ve found out who is sending you the messages. Hold them accountable (your best friend’s mom can really help you with this).
              3. If the bully starts coming near you, turn on your voice recorder on your cell phone. If he hits you, file an assault complaint with the police. Once you’ve filed a complaint of assult or harassment, you can file to get a restraining order.
              4. Get rid of the word, “Can’t.” There is no “I can’t tell my best friend’s mom because….” Because nothing. “I can’t tell the police because…” There is no because. His stalking you and the abuse is escalating. Your life could be in danger and you need to take steps to end it. Your parents could be mad at you for going to the police, but what are they really going to do? They could ground you, but so what. They could take away your phone– so what? This is about being safe. There is nothing that’s more important than that.

              I’m sorry that this is happening to you. If you take all of the steps above, you will make it a lot harder for him to harass you. If you get a restraining order, you might be able to get him out of your workplace, as well.

              1. catsAreCool*

                Turning on your voice recorder on your cell phone might be an issue in some states – not all of them let you record unless the other person/people agree to it. You could talk to the police and ask about that when you file a report.

                Your parents don’t want to help you, but they don’t want you to get help from someone else because they’d look bad? That’s terrible, and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with it.

            3. Althea*

              I think saying to your parents, “This has been going on for 7 years now. Ignoring the problem has not worked. What other solution do you suggest?”

              For “he likes you” say, “Do most of the people who like you hurt you, push you, and scare you? Do you regularly feel scared and sad and angry around the people who like you? Because that’s what’s going on. Someone who liked me would try to make me feel good, not scared.”

              However. They are being willfully blind, so these are things you can just have ready when you go AROUND them to work on solving the problem.

            4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I agree with Lance and the others. Your parents are failing at their job, and your dad is an idiot if he thinks reporting harassment is “spreading your business around.” Also, as the child of overbearing parents who strongly discouraged “sharing private matters” (a variation of don’t spread your business), I think you need to start sticking up for yourself with them. What’s the worst they can do? Ground you? Take away your phone? Their failure to act is putting you in (physical!) danger.

              You’ve got to remember that you aren’t powerless—you can take action to protect yourself, and if your parents flip out, enlist an adult who’s in your corner (a teacher, a friend’s parent, etc.). You’re also almost an adult. Tell your manager that you don’t feel physically safe and asked to be scheduled for non-overlapping shifts (don’t worry whether this can happen—just make the request; it helps to have a paper trail). Speak to a teacher, counselor, or other trusted adult. If things escalate or continue as they have in the past go to the police. You don’t need your parents’ permission to do any of these things.

              Right now you’re talking yourself out of solutions, but your reasons are mostly based on speculation (and I understand why—this guy is upsetting your sense of safety, and you’ve had bad experiences trying to enlist adults). I understand adults have failed you in the past. They may continue to fail you, but you should not let that deter you from creating a record showing that you tried to get help.

              Good luck, and please keep us posted!

            5. Whats In A Name*

              Greta, I agree with the others. Let her get involved. You need an adult role model to help you with this. Yes, you are 17 and responsible for your own life; but my guess would be you also need advise/guidance to handle this properly. You can’t get the help you need from your parents and you need to go to another source. (I mentioned above that a school counselor may also be an option.)

              I would advise you to also go to the manger and let him know simply that you found out X person has been hired and that while you don’t have a formal restraining order this is someone who has harassed you physically and verbally in the past and working with them is concerning. You don’t have to get into details, you don’t need to worry about he said/she said, and don’t get into his Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde personality.

              If working different schedules is not an option then moving to another job might be. Don’t ever let anyone tell you that you are weak if you quit this job if you are forced to work with this guy – it is about managing your emotions, reactions and well-being.

              I feel bad people are calling your parents idiots and other thinks, but my parents were/are the same as yours. You don’t “air your dirty laundry” and just suck it up and put on a smile. Again, regardless of age you have to look out for YOU. And sometimes that means going to the people and making the choices that are best equipped to help the situation.

              I am so fired up.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I apologize if I caused offense by calling Greta’s dad’s attitude towards “spreading your business” idiotic. I was upset at her parents’ inaction, and I probably should have taken a deep breath or reread what I wrote before posting it. Sincere apologies; this was not good behavior on my part.

                1. Whats In A Name*

                  I don’t know if you’ll see this 3 days later but I wasn’t calling anyone in particular out and the reality is I her parents sound like mine. Who I can call idiots all day long; but anyone else…NOPE, I’ll knock you out in 2 seconds flat! I just always feel bad when people talk about someone else’s parents, especially a school-aged person who, like it or not, is living under their roof so can’t really control their parents actions. Which is why I am hoping against hope she gets other adults involved so she can control what is going on as much as possible.

            6. Regular Poster, Anon for This*

              Greta: My father was like this. He didn’t like our “business” out there in the public. He also was abusive, and there were things going on at home that he didn’t want people to know about. Please excuse me for overstepping here. Is there something off about your parent’s relationship at home too? Or your home dynamic? Sometimes that can make these situations much more complicated. And, again, I am sorry if this is overstepping and I don’t intend to read too much into your home life.

              1. twig*

                This occurred to me too. My husband came from a “don’t share our business with the public” family — and that “business” involved abuse, excessive drinking (usually combined) and drunk driving.

                BUT they had to keep the facade up — gotta present the happy family to potential real-estate clients!!

                1. Regular Poster, Anon for This*

                  The “business” really changed my perception of normal. It’s especially hard when you combine abuse, alcohol, and a person with a professional reputation to maintain. I am so sorry you went through that, twig.

              2. Greta*

                I mean, no one is being abused at home. My parents (and my dad especially) are just painfully private people. They have one other couple that they’re friends with, but they just don’t open up about anything with most people. If there’s a problem, they deal with it themselves and don’t involve other people. If they have an argument with each other, they don’t go to other people to look for advice. Once at the end of middle school, I was feeling very depressed and crying a lot and my mom said, “Do you want to see a pschiatrist?!” in a voice that I knew meant that was supposed to be a big insult, like, “Are you really so weak mentally that you need to see a head doctor?” I answered, “Yes!” and i think that just scared her and she never brought it up again.

                1. Former Borders Refugee*

                  They ain’t dealing with the problem, so screw ’em. Talk to an adult who will and if your parents are upset about it, that is not your problem.

                  I know it’s really easy for us strangers on the internet to say “stand up to your parents!” because we won’t have to deal with the fall out when you do. I know it’s a hard and scary thing, especially if they won’t even cope with helping you meet your needs and keep you safe. But you can do it! You have a good head on your shoulders, you recognize this situation is messed up enough that you’re asking for help. That is a GREAT sign for you and the adult you’re becoming. Sadly, there’s no magic wand or magic words we can give you that will fix the problem and make everything okay without causing an uproar. I wish there was.

                  However, change rarely happens without an uproar. So go and roar and take care of you.

                2. Gaia*

                  The issue, Greta, is that they are not dealing with it themselves. So if they won’t deal with it, let someone else help you. And also? Screw them. They’ve failed you as your parents.

                3. Observer*

                  That’s their problem, not yours.

                  Another line to practice. “I get to choose who I tell MY business to. This is MY business.”

            7. The Strand*

              I agree completely with Lance’s comment.

              You are almost an adult; your parents, who are adults, have dropped the ball horribly. I am so sorry you’ve been harassed like this for years, with them doing nothing.

              Let your best friend’s mom help you. Your father is a fool, and he’s put his pride before his daughter’s safety and well-being. Their minimization of your bullying is bad, but his wanting you to hide your problems from the world, when it involves physical abuse, is unconscionable and idiotic behavior.

              See if you can’t also get a referral to a low-cost counseling solution with the help of your best friend’s mother. If your parents care so little over this, I am sure there are other things they’ve done that can be best solved with some counseling.

            8. MC*

              Your parents are supposed to protect you – not leave you open to abuse. Start taking screen shots. If there are any that threaten you – go to the police. You should not have to put up with this. It is unacceptable. Screw “Boys will be boys” mentality. Boys and girls and teens and adults need to be responsible for their actions. End of story. Your parents suck. Call a women’s shelter, ask for help. Start screaming for help in fact. If your parents are embarrassed, they only have themselves to blame for asking you to put up with this for 6 years!!! Whatever they take away from you – you’ll live through it. They can be as mad as they want but you will know you were right. Unless you think it will result in physical violence from your parents – start screaming for help.

              Tell your manager that this person has been harassing you for years. Tell them that if he is hired, you will need to resign. Then do it. Find another job – maybe retail in a womens’ shop where they are less likely to hire a teenage boy. Good luck and let us know how you’re doing.

            9. TL -*

              You’re just 17 and probably don’t know this yet, but your parents’ anger or disappointment is not the worst thing in the world. Far from it. You will survive and even thrive if they get angry at you. If you pay for your own phone, you can text and call whomever you want, including your best friend, regardless of how they feel about it.
              You can get other adults involved. There are options. Take them.

            10. Elizabeth West*

              GRETA.
              LET. HER. HELP.
              What this guy is doing is most likely illegal under stalking statutes . If your best friend’s mum knows what’s going on, there is a lot she can do to help even if you’re not allowed to see your best friend. You need her help!!!

              Talk about hitting–I want to knock some sense into your parents with a clue-by-four right now. >:(

            11. TootsNYC*

              Ditto, let her get involved.

              And your dad doesn’t need to know everything that your best friend’s mom does on your behalf. Talk to your best friend’s mom right now about the job thing, and let her coach you.

              If I were your best friend’s mom, I might (despite the conventional wisdom) ask you to let me go with you to talk to your manager, so that there’s a credible grownup sitting right there saying, “she’s not a hysterical teenager making this stuff up.”

              And get your best friend’s mom to go with you to the police or to any social agency that helps battered and stalked women.

              This is a safety issue, honey–not just an “unpleasantness” issue. And you deserve to have no more unpleasantness!

            12. Sunshine*

              I’m so sorry for all of this. As the mom of teenagers, I want to hug you and fight for you. Find an adult you trust and let them help you. Be grounded for a while if you have to. You need to be safe.

            13. Newbie Librarian*

              Tell her. Tell her now. Tell anyone who will listen. You do not deserve this.
              When I was a little younger than you are now, a friend of mine was in a abusive relationship with a senior in our highschool. And by abusive relationship, I mean that it got so far that he threatened to kill himself if she broke up with him. She thought her parents liked him and would also be mad at her . However, myself and a mutual friend managed to learn enough that we were able to keep her grounded. While she was not comfortable informing any adult at that time (we should have encouraged her to do so, but we were all a little freaked out by this guy) we managed to pool our collective resources of friends to band together around her during that last stretch of school in which he would be in close proximity to her, effectively giving her a body guard from this creep so she would always feel safe. She told her parents not long after, they protected her at home, and we were always ready to run to her.
              You are not alone. People care about you. Don’t listen to your father, tell your friends mom and tell her what you think your parents might react, and let her help you find options. You are nearly a legal adult and you have a right to feel safe and loved.

            14. chickabiddy*

              Yes! I have a teenage daughter and from a parent’s perspective, I would be very happy to help any of her friends if they were being stalked and harassed (well, not really happy, because it’s not a happy situation, but you know what I mean). Let her help. She means it. You seem very intelligent and aware, but sometimes you need an adult on your side Take her up on that.

            15. Not So NewReader*

              Key point: It’s NOT that they aren’t helping you like you WANT.
              This is not a WANT, it’s a NEED. You need your parents to protect you and they are failing massively. Yeah, he is going to be mad when he finds out he is an epic fail. Tell him that this kid hit his daughter, repeatedly over a period of years. Ask him if he is okay with someone hitting you.

              You are 17. Let’s say your birthday is a year from now. The worst thing that can happen is that they ground you for a year. Then you are an adult and you are out of there. BTDT. Take what they are dishing, then when it comes time to leave, leave and don’t look back.

              I am beginning to see more than one problem here, Greta. You got parent stuff going on, too, maybe. Okay, deal with one thing at a time. Your immediate problem is getting this guy away from you. Deal with that first.

              My folks were out of touch in many ways. I forced myself to remain calm and deliberate. I put up with their stuff such as grounding me for an accident, they sided with the other guy and they did not allow me to get medical help. I was 17 and a half. When the time came that I could move on with my life, I made that jump and I did not look back. This maybe the route you decide to go, but it is too soon and you have immediate stuff to deal with here.

            16. JennyFair*

              Grounded is better than assaulted. Your parents are being ridiculous, and I’m so sorry that this is the case. But this boy is clearly not going to respect any boundaries that aren’t enforced by people who can MAKE him stay away from you. Also, once you are away at college next year, he’ll pick someone else who seems helpless and do this to them (assuming he doesn’t follow you). Let your friend’s mom help. The negative consequences will be temporary and survivable. You do not deserve to put up with this treatment. Hang in there!

            17. LCL*

              Everybody here keeps saying your parents aren’t doing enough to help you, and I think they should be doing more, but you say ‘I stopped telling them about things he does a few years ago’…
              How can they help you now when they don’t even know what is happening? You have got to get your parents involved, as long as they aren’t irrational people. Tell them the whole story, and as someone suggested start forwarding them the nasty texts. Because right now, you are keeping his secrets for him. The shame should be his, not yours.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Parents like this let you know that their expectation is for you to stop talking about it. “I told you how to handle it. We are done talking about it.”

                Parents like this have a way of shutting down conversation permanently. You know you cannot go back and ask again.

              2. Observer*

                I agree she needs to tell her parents again, but with the understanding that it probably won’t help. They should have put a stop to it a LONG time ago – when she WAS telling them about it. The thing is that they are apparently NOT rational people – at least when it comes to this issue. I mean is “he’s hitting you because he likes you” a rational thing to say to your child?

            18. LD*

              Ask your friend’s mom to say her daughter told her…maybe that can help keep it from seeming like you are spreading it around if she can be helpful and talk to your parents. Seriously, this is serious and your parents aren’t thinking that way. They are most likely thinking, “kid stuff! it’s harmless” But it’s not harmless and you can talk to your friend’s mom and ask her to help. Please, if she is someone you trust, please let her help and explain to her what your concerns are with your parents. It really can feel isolating when your parents don’t understand how serious and threatening this is for you. Please talk to your friend’s mom or access some of the great advice others have had for resources to guide you in how to navigate this harassment. This community wants you to be safe.

        9. INFJ*

          Wow. That is not how a boy who “likes” you acts. It is NOT ok for a guy to harass and be violent towards you. Ever. This is not acceptable behavior. I’m sorry that nobody is taking it seriously and nobody in authority is believing you.

        10. Kerry ( like the county in Ireland)*

          Your parents are wrong. Even so, his liking you isn’t a pass to assault you, press boundaries, and not behave like a decent person.

        11. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          Great: Please know that physical violence is NEVER EVER an indication that someone likes you. I am sorry your parents cannot tell the difference between abuse and genuine feelings. That sets you up very poorly for relationships in the future.

          PUSHING YOU AROUND IS NOT OK. DON’T EVER THINK IT IS. PLEASE.

          I kind of want to scream at your parents… I am sorry.

          Talk to your managers about his harassment and abuse. Let them know you are afraid to be left alone with him, and are working on a restraining order. Please also talk to your principal, school counselor, a trusted teacher, SOMEONE at the school. Fight back. Start being proactive and put a stop to it. It is super hard, I know, but the only way to make it stop is to stand up to him. Sometimes that means intervention from adults who have more power than you. The next time he is physical violent to you, go to the police. IMMEDIATELY. Press charges for assault and ask for a restraining order. Does your school have security cameras that might have caught some of the previous abuse? Do you have a school resource officer?

        12. stelmselms*

          I so wish that people would stop telling girls that the reason a boy punches you, “pulls your pig tails”, etc. is because they like you. This reasoning has to stop.

          1. Honeybee*

            I know! It has never made sense, ever, ever, and the only reason ‘we’ even started it is to give men a pass for abusing women.

          2. Lance*

            It’s not even remotely sound reasoning after, say, elementary school, when they hardly know how to act. Now she’s in high school. So I just have to say: really?

        13. Clever Name*

          I am so sorry your parents are not helpful. Do you have another adult you trust? An aunt or uncle or a family friend? Maybe a friend’s parent? A counselor or teacher? You are being stalked and bullied, and it’s not on you to deal with it alone. Adults need to step in to help you.

        14. Gaia*

          Ok first of all, this is horrible commentary from your parents. Men don’t hit women they like. Men that hit women are abusive and abuse =/= like. Please know that this is completely untrue and DANGEROUS. Shame on your parents for giving you this message.

          Second, you do not need permission from your parents to go to the police. This person has assaulted you. You have a right to be safe in your person. Talk to your manager. Make it clear this is *not* normal school age teasing but actual assault, harassment and possibly stalking. Any manager that is even moderately competent will not want to hire this person.

          And if he assaults you again (or even if he doesn’t) you should alert the authorities. This is not acceptable behavior and if he hasn’t learned that yet, he needs to learn it.

        15. mander*

          Oh my god that “he likes you” response really burns me up. No, people don’t do creepy nasty things to you because they *like* you.

    4. Jen*

      I would definitely talk with your manager and let her know your history with this guy. You don’t have to get into specifics. Just the fact that he has been physically abusive towards you is enough. And this is definitely a pattern over time. You shouldn’t have to put up with that at work….or anywhere!

    6. Artemesia*

      You need to get to your manager before the bully does; let him know your history with this guy and you would appreciate not having to work alone with him or closely with him. At least if things start going down, there will be context. Sorry this is happening to you. Recognize too that ‘pushing someone down’ is assault and you are now adults; if he physically assaults you call the police. Stalking is also illegal most places so save texts etc and push back legally. You are not in 7th grade anymore and you have some legal tools at your disposal.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. You’ve worked with the manager longer and should have some credit built up as to your good attitude, good work ethic, not likely to over-exaggerate etc. (i.e. if you had just started manager might not know enough to assess that).

        It sounds like this bullying is not just in the past but still quite recent; if it was just a long time ago, while not discounting I might wonder if this person had changed. (I had a classmate that was always mean to me, not physically, but just verbally, and she got hired at the same restaurant/coffee shop I worked at in High school; I about flipped and told my manager I wouldn’t work with her–in retrospect I could have handled that better, I wasn’t smart enough, like you, to come to a place like this, not that AAM likely existed 16-17 years ago–…which shocked my manager because I never said things like that — and except for some super busy holidays, we never had to work together…but honestly, the few times we did work together, I discovered she had totally changed and was decent.) But it sounds like you’ve had much more recent, prolonged, and more intense bullying —

        So documentation, screenshots of these texts? etc. If any of that is possible I would do that. There is more awareness about bullying and the repercussions than their used to be — so I’m sorry you are going through this and good luck!

      2. Sunshine*

        Yes. And use those words: “safety”, “harassment”, “stalking”, and “assault”. This is well beyond childish bullying.

    7. Bexx*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I have to disagree with your parents. This guy is too old to act like this if he likes you. Is there a counselor you can talk too? The next time he prank calls you or touches you in any way please call the police. Start a log of his behavior and ask friends to back you up if they can. If my daughter was going through this I’d feel the need to string that boy up by his toenails!

    8. Liz L*

      I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. That you’ve been going through this for years! It’s completely unacceptable. Know that there is something seriously wrong with anyone who would go to these lengths to make someone fearful or miserable. Please tell all the trustworthy people in your life about this situation and let people help you when and where they can. If you have a good relationship with your manager and knows that he/she trusts you, please have that discussion. Rooting for you! Good luck.

    9. Beezus*

      You’ve gotten a lot of great advice on the bullying stuff. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I just wanted to chime in and say that your manager absolutely should want to know about this – maybe not deep detail, but definitely hit on the duration and some of the highlights, including the pushing/hitting. Your manager is just looking to hire another shift worker, not looking to bring in this kind of behavior, especially into an environment where pushing/hitting could cause someone to be terribly injured.

      1. Emily*

        I agree with this. I used to manage a quick service food establishment and I would 100% want to know about any potential problems with a new hire. I agree that approaching the conversation calmly and with facts is the best approach especially with the holidays coming up, which can and probably will affect your schedule/hours.

    10. Pineapple Incident*

      Definitely talk to your manager and let them know about this! 12 years of horrible treatment at the hands of this person should at least be enough to keep this creep on different shifts than you, if they value your employment there. If anybody balks at helping you avoid this person, it is time to find another job. You can only work so hard to ask someone to help you in this situation, and it will always look better if you leave a job voluntarily for something else than if this creep were to get you fired, no matter how unjustified.

    11. Anon 12*

      Restraining order? Maybe you should talk to somebody at the local police station to see what they recommend.

    12. GigglyPuff*

      Also keep in mind, many high schools now have cameras. If he physically touches you at school, tripping, hitting, or even just physically intimidating you, it might not matter if a teacher doesn’t see. If it happens again and you involve a teacher/counselor, I’d ask about seeing it on the video cameras. Something to keep in mind.

      1. Greta*

        This is interesting, though I don’t know if it would be “conclusive.” He hasn’t pushed me since we started high school, but he has tripped me a few times, but he’s always really careful to do when there’s a crowd of people around so it’s like it was an accident. I can’t prove he did it because it would be easy to for him to say, “So and so bumped into me and I bumped into Greta, it was an accident.” The two times I’ve been hit with a textbook, he actually didn’t do it, he instructed his friend to do it. That friend is a known troublemaker and basically will do anything the bully tells him to do (not very bright). One time no one saw it when he hit me (but maybe a camera would have shown it). The second time, the teacher did see it and just told the kid to go to the principal’s office, which is basically a weekly occurence for him anyway. The teacher asked me if I was okay and since I wasn’t bleeding or bruised, that was the end of it. There’s a lot of fighting at my school so it always feels like the teachers have much bigger problems to deal with than one kid tripping another or someone getting slapped or hit by a book.
        Mostly at school, the bully has just been saying truly awful stuff to me lately, but he’ll usually do it very quietly so only I can hear him, or he’ll say it around a group of his friends so that they could stick up for him if I told. And the texts, which are just mean because he pretends to be people I’m friendly with at school to try to get me to respond, and I’m always worried that I’ll end up actually blocking a guy I like for real or something. :(

        1. GigglyPuff*

          I would definitely take the advice on looking into getting a new phone or a Google voice number, and then only give the number to people you absolutely trust and know will not give it to him or his friends. That way you’ll have a much better chance of knowing who you are actually corresponding to on your phone.
          I’m really sorry this is happening and wish I had better advice, but there is some great advice given by others and I hope you consider it.

        2. TootsNYC*

          If any guy would allow him to use his phone to send mean texts to you, this is not a guy you should like.

          There’s plenty of time to encounter decent men; don’t worry about who you might miss out on in high school.

          Also: If your school is known for having lots of fights, your manager is going to want to know that this guy is part of starting them, bcs the manager doesn’t want this in his/her workplace.

        3. Ms. Anne Thrope*

          “Truly awful things”–like threats? If so, go to the police. Like ‘you’re fat and ugly’? If so, please know that this is the lazy man/boy’s way to insult a woman or girl. It’s not true, so just pretend you don’t hear him. Or, of course, tell him he’s a dickless wonder. Given the violence, though, I probably wouldn’t do that.

          Keep yourself safe, let your friend’ mom help you stay safe, because IT GETS BETTER. REally, I promise. Get through high school, get out of your parents’ house and into college, a job, or both. Once you have control over your life it’s so. much. better.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          Oh, Greta, this so sucks. My heart is breaking for you, life does not have to be this hard.

          My wise friend gave me some advice that you might like:

          Someone hurts you once, that is an accident.
          Someone hurts you twice that is carelessness.
          Someone hurts you three times that is reportable.

          Please, please hang on to this forever, and ever.

          Here’s additional info:

          The first time someone hurts you,it is fine to hold it in a good light and forgive them.
          The second time someone hurts you, you point out, “hey this is the second time you have done this, you need to be more careful!” (Oddly, I have had someone do this to me because I was not watching what I was doing. It gave me enough of a jolt that I made darn sure I did not bump them or whatever again.)
          The third time someone hurts you is when you drag a third party into the situation. Chose your third party wisely, be deliberate about who you pick.

          But please, memorize this and keep it with you for life:
          Someone hurts you once, that is an accident.
          Someone hurts you twice that is carelessness.
          Someone hurts you three times that is reportable.

        5. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          Saying comments where you are the only one that can hear them is classic abuser behavior. Abusers make sure they look great to everyone else. It isolates you and keeps you from getting help, since others have only seen Mr. Wonderful and don’t see the creepy jerk. This is not bullying. This is stalking and abusive. Don’t feel like you don’t deserve help because it’s “not as bad” as the other fights you see in school.

    13. A. D. Kay*

      Greta, please keep us updated! this creep is very concerning. He is breaking the law and the police need to know about it. Definitely bring in your parents’ friend. She should be able to help you deal with any blowback you get from them. You don’t have to go it alone! You might want to think about calling the RAINN hotline too.

    14. Emmie*

      It’s okay to go to your manager about this. Be factual. Explain what’s been happening for years with this person, and how you’ve tried to address it. Any good manager would want to know about this dynamic. My heart goes out to you. You shouldn’t have to deal with this. It’s wrong, and I am sorry you haven’t had support from those you love.

  8. The other Dawn*

    I’ve been on a temp contract via an agency working full time hours with no paid leave and minimal benefits for several years. There’s rumors going around that there may be offers made for temps to move to permanent contracts employed directly by the company with paid leave and more benefits. Normally this would be great news however I’m a bit torn because I’m starting to consider opportunities elsewhere as I don’t think the company is the right fit for me long term. What’s the appropriate etiquette in this situation? Do I have an obligation to be upfront and let them know it’s possible I’ll be gone in a few months or do I just accept the new contract and deal with any fallout when it happens? While there’s no new job training required as my responsibilities would be exactly the same, I would feel bad about the effort they took to move me onto their payroll if I left soon after

    1. NJ Anon*

      Take the permanent position. Don’t feel bad if you leave. You don’t know how long it will take to find something else.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. Companies that pay poorly should expect to lose people to better opportunities; and since you will have been working for these people for awhile even before taking a full time gig, it is not ‘short term.’ Do what is in your own best interest.

    2. A. Nonymous*

      Take the position if offered and take a better one if it comes along. I’ve always considered my job to be a mutually “best fit” situation. If you get another “best fit” then you’re under no obligation to stay.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      The company has been working in its own best interests. You have the right to work in yours.

    4. Karanda Baywood*

      I waited and waited to be made permanent and it never happened. You have to do what’s best for you.

      If you ARE made perm but then find something better, TAKE IT.

      And no, do not tell them you might be gone in a few months. The less said, the better for you.

    5. CMT*

      Don’t tell them you’re thinking of leaving. Accept the permanent position if it’s offered. Start your search when/if you feel ready and leave when/if you feel ready and have a good offer!

    7. Jersey's Mom*

      You’re hearing rumors. Don’t make a job decision based on rumor.

      If they offer you a permanent contract, read it carefully to see what severance requirements are there (2 weeks? something else?). That is exactly what the business is requiring you to do if you decide to leave. You are not required to give notice that “you’re looking for another job”, or “I don’t think this company is a right fit for me long term”. In fact, if you tell someone that, chances are you will be out the door as soon as they can find someone else to fill your position.

    8. LD*

      Do what is helpful for you. Take the job/contract if they offer it before you get another offer that you’d prefer. There are no guarantees that you’ll get another job right away. And if you do, and you like it, then you can just give them appropriate notice and say thanks for the experience, but you’re moving on to another opportunity more in line with your career goals. Don’t make your choices based on what you hope; make them on what you know to be true right now.

  9. The other Dawn*

    On a different note, an apology to the person who usually comments under the username Dawn for accidentally impersonating you in the open thread last week. I should have checked if the name was in use before commenting

    1. Cristina in England*

      We actually already have The Other Dawn too, so maybe try again? I am guessing you aren’t her since she links to her blog in her username. So sorry! We had the same thing a few months ago with Engineer Girl, I think.

      1. Yet another Dawn*

        Can’t believe I was careless enough to impersonate someone by mistake twice in a row. Going to try dreaming up a REALLY creative nickname for future threads.

        2. fposte*

          Dawn of the Dead? Dawn without Tony Orlando? Dawn Quixote? Dawn Pardo?

          Sorry, couldn’t resist a riff.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              I actually really like Dawn Juan Demarco and Dawn Quixote. I just changed my handle, but these names are making me want to change again, lol.

    4. Natalie*

      If you’re comfortable using Gravatar (the picture that shows up next to your name) that will distinguish you from original Dawn and The Other Dawn. That’s what I did when a new Natalie started showing up sometimes.

        1. Windchime*

          Exactly — like mine. Clearly it’s not a picture of me, unless you want to believe that my name is really Windchime. (That would actually be kind of a hippy/cool name).

  10. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    Feel better, Alison!

    I’m curious how y’all feel about this thing from Dear Prudence earlier this week:
    “We can, however, donate our PTO to our co-workers, and I have done so with one of my other co-workers who has cancer. I have a week left on my account. My former co-worker used up all hers in July but still booked a trip to Disney World this Christmas with her mom and kids. She screwed up with HR and has now been begging people to donate to her so she can go. ”

    That seems like possibly the worst PTO system in existence. A combined bank that you can be encouraged or “encouraged” to donate to other people from?
    WHAAT?

    Am I overreacting?

    2. Cb*

      I think when it is used this way, it’s terrible. But my mom is in management and regularly hits the top of her allowed PTO accumulation and she’s been known to discretely donate it to someone in urgent need (ie. someone with a sick parent and no FMLA eligibility, new parent, etc)

      1. Deets*

        This was also my thought – I’ve worked places that allowed employees to transfer PTO to coworkers dealing with some sort of long-term medical problem, family emergency, etc. But allowing it for vacations seems odd.

    3. Joanna*

      No, you’re not. It’s a nice idea in theory and perhaps there’s some workplaces with excellent cultures where perhaps it would work. However, as demonstrated in the letter there is many many ways that bullying, guilt tripping and office politics could turn it very bad.

      And even if people are giving up PTO of their own free will, it’s not healthy for people to be taking no/minimal time away from work.

    4. Faith*

      I used to work for a company that allowed PTO donations. You could donate as little as 8 and as much as 40 hours to somebody. The way it would work is that an employee in need of donation would approach HR and an email would go out to the entire company asking for donation without naming the employee or the reason for them asking. I saw no problem with that system. I knew that an email like that usually meant that someone has run out of their FMLA and PTO. There was zero pressure to donate.

      1. OhNo*

        I worked for a while at a government agency that did something similar – except they always mentioned who it was for and why they needed it.

        Talk about a guilt trip! I could tell they were trying to be nonjudgmental in the request phrasing, but there’s only so many times you can read “PTO donations are now being accepted for Wakeen, who is taking time off to support his father, son, brother, and third cousin twice removed, all of whom have horrible cancers of the appendix and only six weeks to live” before you start to feel like a tool for not donating.

        I am really glad that the requests came from HR and not the person themselves, though. I’m just enough of a pushover that I would have caved to a direct request every time.

    5. Red Reader*

      I don’t know anyone I would be willing to effectively just donate a quarter of my monthly salary to, so no, I think it’s a pretty absurd idea. :-P

    6. Artemesia*

      I had the same reaction. I couldn’t tell if she was losing the PTO anyway to rollover in which case, perhaps. But the idea that I should fund someone else’s vacation, especially someone I don’t even like is ridiculous. If the unliked employee were needing it because their child was in the hospital or some such that would be one thing — but to go to Disneyworld? ANY time off I take is as valuable to me as seeing some one else go to Disneyworld.

      2. Jennifer*

        I think I’d be even more resentful of the coworker than I already am if I donated PTO so she could go to Disneyworld. If I was already at bitch-eating-crackers stage with her, that would be another thing going through my head every time I was dealing with her shenanigans.

        Something similar came up for me once–someone who made it very clear to me that We Will Not Be Friends needed PTO donated to her and I did not want to donate it.

    7. Sophie Winston*

      Nope. I’ve worked for organizations that allowed donating PTO, but only to individuals on leave with very serious illnesses, and it was anonymous.

      The only exception was for a woman who went out on maternity leave just before the 1 year of service mark when STD went into affect. And that was not the Mom’s idea – a group of supervisors and managers in her Dept went to HR asking to each donate some of their vacation to her, so she could have at least the medical portion of her leave paid. Actual donation amounts handled anonymously by HR. I work with some pretty awesome people.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Same, and I appreciated that I could do this (although in reality it was rarely anonymous because the organization was so small/unprofessional that everyone knew everyone else’s business). Donating for someone else’s vacation seems strange (it’s almost like donating cash to her so she can go on a vacation), although I did donate PTO, once, so a colleague could be with her dying mother across the country. But it was generally understood that folks did not have to donate, that others should not solicit donations, and that donations should only be made in serious/grave circumstances (death, illness).

    8. Murphy*

      We have a system where you need to be approved in order to receive donated leave, and it’s only people with FMLA type situations going on. You shouldn’t be able to get donations to go to Disney. That’s just gross.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Thank you, I knew there were ways to do this right. I’ve pushed for this at our small-to-medium sized company, because upper level employees often have to use leave or lose it, and I know some that do lose leave before they get to use it. Meanwhile, some new, young employees with small children are constantly going temporarily negative if their supervisor allows it or taking leave without pay if they don’t. And this company has done a lot to support employees facing extreme life challenges, so it seemed like a good fit, but apparently it was too much of an administrative headache.

        1. not really a lurker anymore*

          I’m local gov’t, so we still do separate banks of vacation and sick leave. We are permitted to donate VAC or previously banked CompTime to other employees who have completed paperwork with HR. I am aware of 2 people out of about 4,000 currently being permitted donations.

          Our sick leave is restricted by City Ordinances and has been for decades.

          1. LCL*

            Local govt here, separate vac and sick leave. We are allowed to donate sick leave, not vac. It is administered by HR, can be anonymous or not.
            What was so WTF about that letter was NuPru’s response. She said, basically, be the bigger person and donate, it will make you feel good.

      2. littlemoose*

        Same here. My large organization offers leave donations for people dealing with serious medical situations or who are caring for ill family members – donating leave for a Disney trip would never pass muster.

      3. Kittymommy*

        Where I currently work it’s like this, I actually used to work in the particular division that approved stuff like this. Had to be catastrophic illness, FMLA and your own sick leave had to be gone as well. You could ask for it anonymously our not, up to the individual.
        I remember seeing that question on Slate – no way in he’ll would I give that person my sick leave. If I remember correctly, Prudence advised donating it.

      4. Science!*

        My mom worked for a school with this system and paid into it every year. When my father was in the hospital for a serious accident and she needed to take a couple weeks off to be with him, she benefited extremely from this system. But I wonder if those kinds of systems work better in smaller organizations. People would feel better about giving some of their PTO to someone else if they thought it was someone they at least know. My last organization was massive, I couldn’t see how it would work in that organization.

    9. Henrietta Gondorf*

      I work for the federal government and we can transfer leave under certain limited circumstances (someone has to be preapproved and it’s only available once they’ve exhausted all their own sick and annual leave, etc.)

      I just thought the answer was nuts because my take is “Be generous if you like, but there is no obligation here whatsoever.”

      1. Paige Turner*

        Yeah, I’m a fed contractor, so I get tons of emails saying “So-and-so has exhausted their leave” but since I’m not a fed myself, I can’t donate. I have friends who have received leave donations to take paternity leave, which was very helpful for them. Still, I feel like asking for leave from coworkers (including tons of people you don’t know if it’s a large sub-agency/agency) is kind of weird. I feel like a better system would be for people to donate excess leave to a general fund that would be distributed to approved applicants, instead of the current system which feels like a half step away from getting a link to a Go Fund Me.

    10. Elsajeni*

      It’s pretty common to have a pool for donated sick leave, which can really be a lifesaver for people dealing with long-term health problems (chronic illness, cancer treatment, etc.). I’ve never heard of letting people donate toward a vacation, though. I guess if you have a combined sick/vacation pool, you could think of it as retroactively donating toward sick leave they’ve already taken, so that the person gets some of their days back and can spend them on vacation…? Still feels questionable, though, honestly. (I also think it’s probably better for HR to handle these donations in a way that keeps the recipient and the reason anonymous, like Faith described; sucks to be the sick person who no one likes enough to donate to, or the person whose time-off request is for a stigmatized reason like mental health treatment.)

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I guess the whole thing is kinda weird for me since I come from a country where the government (generally) pays for extended sick leave. But this sounded very strange, all of it.
        I like the anonymous donation thing, if one has to have it.

      2. fposte*

        We have the sick leave pool; in ours, you can’t donate to anybody specific, and the only way you can be eligible for the pool is to have donated to it (I generally don’t use all my sick leave so I donated to it as an insurance plan, basically).

        2. Lance*

          That actually seems like a really good way to do it; only eligible if you’ve donated, which kicks off some of the possible excess one person could potentially have if they have donated before, and have thereby ‘earned’ it, in a sense. I like it.

        3. Annie Moose*

          Oh, I like this. Then it’s not about “Susie needs this time” (bringing up all sorts of awkward issues about donating time directly to Susie, or Susie needing to reveal to the whole company that she has some need for extra sick time, or whatever) and is about “if anyone needs this time, it’s available”.

    11. Joseph*

      You are not. That’s terrible.
      Also, FWIW, I didn’t like Prudence’s advice. The crux of Prudence’s argument seems to be based on OP saying she wasn’t traveling to see her family…but that doesn’t mean that the PTO is useless. OP’s parents might be taking time off work, OP’s kids or nieces/nephews/cousins will be off school, OP might want to spend a day with a friend, OP might just want the chance to relax (which is a legitimate use of the benefits you negotiated for!) and so on.
      Prudence also completely dismissed the relevance of the co-worker’s general behavior, but I’m not sure you can. Asking OP to give up her vacation for someone else is asking a massive favor – and it’s legit for personal feelings to play into that. In fact, it’s possible that the reason the new manager is so strict is partly because he realized that the previous, looser rules were being overly abused.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Yes, I was surprised to some degree too. I usually agree with her advice to. Part of me understood the idea of “be the bigger person, no matter what” – but a whole week is a big thing. And come on, in holidays, we all can use the extra time for last minute shopping, more time with family, etc. I could see giving one day, if everyone else also gave 1 day, to get to a week — but all of it….eh…

            1. Orca*

              Not at all! It really is a lot. And in last week’s Dear Prudence, I just remembered, she answered a question with “have a good work life balance! It’s okay!” So to tell this person they should donate more of their PTO when they’ve already given some away is just baffling.

            4. Brownie Queen*

              I felt the same way when I read her answer and I am glad to see others agree. I can see maybe a day but not an entire week.

          2. Artemesia*

            The idea that the time is not valuable to me because I am not traveling is just nuts. If my folks were visiting for Christmas or we had various events with my grandchildren who are out of school etc, then having that time off at Christmas is valuable to me. I would never give it up so someone else could vacation. Why would I? For their kidney transplant, yes. But vacation? Huh?

            1. AFRC*

              Exactly – and not to assume, but why would you book a trip if you knew you didn’t have PTO? Donating time rewards the behavior.

              2. Honeybee*

                That’s what I was thinking. If I reward this co-worker for her behavior she’s just going to try it again.

            3. Anonsie*

              What, are you trying to tell me that you DON’T agree that women drinking is the most pressing evil facing our society today?

        4. Mustache Cat*

          I almost wonder if Mallory misinterpreted the OP’s letter to say that she wasn’t planning to take any time off at all. But yes, agreed, a miss from her when I usually love her to pieces.

          (btw, did you hear the latest PrudiePod? Carvell’s advice for the young man to ask the father’s advice over the wishes/consultation of his young lady had me screaming THAT’S SO PATERNALISTIC out loud…or at least it would have had I not been in the office. I was glad Mallory disagreed so vehemently)

      2. Allison*

        Right, she seems to assume that if the asker isn’t traveling, they don’t need time off. That’s bunk. Sure, lots of people work through or around the holidays and take minimal time off, but lots of people see that time as a time to relax, especially since Christmas can be stressful even if you’re staying home. Maybe the asker has kids who are going to be home between Christmas Eve and New Years Day, maybe they have family coming over, maybe they just really wanna binge watch Netflix after a year of working hard. Why should they give that up so someone they don’t like can get extra time off to go to Disney World?

        1. AFineSpringDay*

          I agree! We were just discussing the week after Christmas in a staff meeting yesterday. We don’t get it off as a company. My colleagues all have partners and/or kids, or their parents live across the country. I always wind up working that week because none of those boxes fit me, and they call me a “saint” for it.
          Honestly, I don’t mind that much – no one’s here, it’s super quiet, no work needs to happen, I can wear yoga pants and lay on my office couch reading a book, or search to the ends of the internet for milkshake recipes, or actually get my desk cleaned off. But one of these years, I’m going to want to take that week off just to chill, and one of my colleagues better be prepared to work that week.

        2. Karanda Baywood*

          And maybe they slip on the ice on xmas eve and need to lay on the sofa with an ice pack for a week.

          I would never give up my time to someone I don’t even like.

          1. DragoCucina*

            Close to my experience. Preparing for visiting relatives the week after Christmas I fell and cracked three ribs. You never know…

        3. Some Sort of Management Consulta*

          Agreed!
          People need time off to relax and recharge! They can do that at Disney world or on their couch but I mean, there’s a reason there are vacation laws in most countries.

      3. just another librarian*

        Super bad advice from Mallory on this one! (And I like her writing generally.) Let’s convert one week of PTO into its cash equivalent. Let’s say it’s $1500 a week. Should you donate $1500 so someone you don’t even like can go to Disney? That’s totally up to the individual. Some of us would do it. I would not. Because it’s my $1500. And the person already had the $1500 and chose to spend it another way. Which is her call. But shameless of her to ask me for it for a vacation.

        1. fposte*

          I also thought that Mallory wasn’t aware that sometimes you literally can cash your vacation out, so that a donation could well be losing the OP money.

          1. Faith*

            Yeah, at my current job, you get to carry over you unused vacation up to a certain number of hours, and after that, they will write you a check. So, you still get you benefit one way or the other. I would have understood the advice to donate if the letter writer had a ton of accrued vacation that she was unable to carry over or cash out and it would have simply gone to waste. But to donate your ONLY week of PTO accrued to someone you don’t even LIKE? Unless you are trying to fix some major negative karma in your life, I don’t understand the point of that sacrifice.

          2. BAS*

            Yeah, especially in states like CA where PTO/Vacation time is considered accrued wages. It gets paid out when you leave and carried over year-to-year.

          3. Hibiscus*

            Mallory has never had a real office job where she was expected to show up and do work. She admits it.

      4. Rachel*

        I didn’t like it either. Lose out on my PTO that I’ve earned so someone I don’t even like can go to Disney World? Especially after she booked the trip knowing she did not have enough PTO? No way! I’d just say sorry, I have plans for that time. Never mind that those plans may be to sleep until noon and binge watch Judge Judy, those are still plans. : )

        I have worked at places where you could borrow against your next year’s PTO, but that was generally only done for FMLA-type situations.

        1. catsAreCool*

          Taking it easy for a week of PTO might be exactly what the LW needs. I don’t understand why the LW would donate PTO for a trip to an amusement park unless the LW didn’t want to use the PTO at all.

    12. Allison*

      You’re not overreacting, and I disagree with Prudence’s advice that the asker should give their coworker all of their PTO just because they weren’t using it to travel, as though that means they don’t need time off around the holidays. If I had a week left and wasn’t traveling, I *might* give the coworker a day of mine, but definitely not the whole thing. Why should I give up a chance to relax around the holidays because someone else was bad at planning their time off?

      However, if it was revealed that one of her kids had a terminal illness and that’s why she’s always out, and why she wants to go to Disney World, I might be more inclined to help.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        My holiday is my holiday. It’s no one’s business how I spend it.

        I mena, of course if someone’s kid had a terminal illness, it’d be a different case. But… Otherwise, no touching my holidays.

    13. Temperance*

      I almost never agree with her, but her advice on that case was so shitty! I would have told LW to enjoy her staycation.

    14. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I had a coworker that I would have loved to have donated a couple of weeks to when she was out for cancer treatments. But I would object to be encouraged to donate. Especially for a fun vacation and not someone out for a prolonged illness.

    15. Jubilance*

      I’m not opposed to PTO donation but in this instance there’s no way that I’d donate in the Dear Prudie situation. Emergencies or illness is one thing, not managing your time is quite another.

      At my mom’s workplace they do PTO donation. Several years ago my younger sister suffered a near-drowning, and my mom took time off to help care for my sister (she was 12 at the time). Some of her coworkers graciously donated PTO and my mom was very grateful to be able to take the time off, as she was the primary breadwinner for our family at the time.

    16. Charlotte, not NC*

      I know some places that let you donate sick days, but consider vacation/personal days separate. I think that’s the way to go if you’re going to do it.

    17. Pineapple Incident*

      We can donate PTO where I work, but there are all sorts of caveats, and it can only go to someone who is on FMLA for something medical once they’ve officially used up all of their own leave.

    18. Pen and Pencil*

      I worked at a place that did something similar with comp time. We had to use comp time up in 6 month chunks, and if you didn’t use it, you lost it. There was enough comp time to go around, that I would have an extra two weeks of vacation time a year, so it would get to the point where you just couldn’t use it all. They would “bank” these unused hours so that if an employee ever ran into the cancer/grave illness/ unexpected car crash /etc. happened the company would dip into the “bank”. You had to use up all of your PTO, sick days, etc. first, and then I want to say the employees had to vote whether or not to dip into the bank for a person (not sure about this though). It sucked having to work so much comp time that you couldn’t use up all of your hours, but it was nice knowing that there was a sort of fallback plan until disability kicked in. AFAIK it has never been used in the 20 years that the business has been open. I think some currently employees have suggested starting to use the bank to cover paid maternal leave. That being said, I would be much more skeptical about this being used with PTO. That’s like being asked to donate several hundred dollars to someone. Seems like the stakes would be too high, and in most places the internal pressure would be too much to really make it fair.

    19. Whats In A Name*

      I worked for a place like this but there were some very specific conditions and in all cases it was an optional donation.

      1) Only people using FMLA or with serious medical issues could dip into the company pool
      2) You could only donate what you couldn’t carry over (you could carry over all your accrued days but only up to 30/year, once you hit your limit, you could opt to donate it to pool)
      3) When you left you cashed out vacation days but sick was unpaid. You could donate your leftover to the pool.

    20. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’m not sure what your objection is. Combined PTO in general? (I’m on the record as saying I don’t think it’s a good idea, so I’m with you there.) Having a system to transfer/donate PTO?

      My current organization has this system, and while I’m not a fan of combined PTO there’s nothing objectionable to me about the donation aspect. The way I’ve seen it used is when someone goes out on parental leave, or has a health crisis. Usually folks will throw in 1/2 or 1 day — which adds up quickly when enough people do it. We have allow an unusual amount of carryover (you can bank up to 2 times your annual leave), so I’m sure there are folks who have been here for a long time who are able to give even more than the token day.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Whoops, hit submit too soon.

        That being said, I really disagree with Prudie’s advice. This person doesn’t have a health crisis or once-in-a-lifetime need. She screwed up her vacation. That’s not her colleague’s problem to solve (and certainly not be giving away their vacation, unless she agrees to immediately donate hers back when she accrues it… but I wouldn’t trust her to do that). Prudie really got this one wrong.

    21. CMT*

      We have this system where I work, but I’m fairly certain that a request for donations has to be approved. So the Disneyland trip would probably not be approved but a more serious situation would be. It’s nice to know that if something terrible ever happens where I’d need paid leave, there’s a little bit of a safety net.

    22. Karo*

      We have something set up like that here, where you can choose to donate your own PTO to someone else (it’s not a combined bank, though – it’s a case-by-base basis). For the most part it can only be used in a serious situation, like helping someone cover a medical emergency that they’d have to take unpaid time for, but you can petition HR to have it used for less serious stuff, like vacation.

      Honestly I really love the idea, but that may be because I’ve never been asked to donate to it or had to take advantage of it. Typically the people that are asked are people who regularly take two weeks less than their allotted time (and we have a use it or lose it policy), and it’s always done discretely so there’s no pressure of having to avert your eyes in the hall because you didn’t want to give up your vacation because someone is fighting a serious disease.

    23. Honeybee*

      I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree with Mallory’s advice. I wouldn’t give her the PTO. You can’t schedule a vacation if you use up all your PTO, and if you know that you have a week-long vacation booked don’t use all your PTO! I’m not giving away my chance to have a vacation because she can’t manage her time.

      But it doesn’t sound like a shared PTO system. It sounds like everyone has their own PTO, but you can donate your own unused PTO to coworkers who have used all of theirs up for whatever reason.

    24. Formica Dinette*

      My company allows PTO donations. They don’t actively advertise it, but it is in the policy. I offered some of mine to a coworker who mentioned they had run out due to several different medical issues, but they declined. I have never heard of anyone here bugging anyone else to donate PTO, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

      I’m not sure I entirely agree with Mallory’s answer. I’m sure I would be annoyed if anyone nagged me to give them my PTO, but I do see her point about being charitable. I would probably give my coworker two days and take three for myself or something like that.

      Now that I think about it, there’s another coworker I like very much who has a chronic illness and might be running out of PTO. I should see if they need any of mine.

      1. Ange*

        My company doesn’t do donations but you can buy or sell 5 days each year (with management approval). They just adjust your pay up or down accordingly.

    25. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I would never do this in a company I ran, but it does strike me as making a level of sense (and being kinda Libertarian in nature). Like, if the company had approached it as “we can absorb this much labor being gone over the course of the year” then, from the business perspective, it makes sense to allow employees to buy, sell, trade or donate their lave however they wanted. Like, if you viewed PTO as a contingency plan than as a benefit to your employees.

  11. Lolly Scrambler*

    I got a job interview on Thursday but judging from the fact she has taken the day off it looks like my colleague who does the same job too. I actually think she should get it but I guess as long as one of us does hopefully one of us will be closer to getting a new workplace soon. Our other colleagues are leaving next week and the week after.

    1. Sophie Winston*

      Don’t sell yourself short. Just because your colleague has X skill or experience you don’t doesn’t mean she is the better fit for this particular job. You worry about showing them how awesome you are and leave the decision to the hiring manager.

      2. Lance*

        Agreed; if you want the job, then put your effort toward getting it. Don’t worry at all about who else might be applying, because there could always be someone you might consider more likely to get it… but then, as stated, that decision is ultimately up to the hiring manager, and you still have a chance if you feel you do.

  12. Reporting Analyst*

    Spouse accepted a new job offer yesterday, and I couldn’t be happier that he’s getting away from his horribly chaotic current employer (and recovering over an hour each day in commuting time alone). Thanks again to AAM – advice from this site was instrumental in updating his resume and preparing to interview after 10+ years with the same company!

  13. Sally Sparrow*

    Last week I mentioned possibly sharing my supervisor’s office during my office’s construction. I an happy to say that I mentioned sharing with the PT further and she supported the option. So whether construction does start that boundary will still be in place as she has her office.

    In other news, I am now finding myself without work again. And still no job description after 3-4 months. I keep getting told to let my supervisor know when I have nothing to do, but then nothing ends up happening. Then if I mention it to someone else and it gets back to her, I get asked why I didn’t tell her.

    I am also dealing with a CW who keeps going around me. The culprit, Jane, keeps going to Monica. Monica and I both process teapot orders, and Monica has been here longer (but no authority, we both also report to Phoebe). I am new to the process but am handling a new teapot vendor exclusively which is a new thing for everyone. So Jane goes to Monica to discuss process details for the new vendor or asks for updates from her instead of coming to me. Now sometimes I might go to Monica myself to bounce some ideas off of, but it feels really weird that Jane keeps overstepping me and going to Monica who literally has no responsibility or say with the new vendor. And I am nowhere near Jane or Monica to interject in the moment and, for what it’s worth, Jane is the sane distance from Monica as she is from me. But mostly I find out after the fact when Monica says, “So Jane mentioned X in the process for your vendor…”

    2. Artemesia*

      Since Jane is incorrigible, you need to fix this with Monica as in “Jane insists on going around me on the new vender I am managing and this is a recipe for missed communication and not meeting the vender’s needs when I am looped in after the fact. I really need you to just tell Jane to bring the information directly to me until she gets it that I am responsible for this.”

      If Monica refuses to do this then you need to take it a step up if that seems at all feasible. This behavior is a great way to undercut a new person’s authority and professionalism.

  14. Kerry*

    I’m an American working in the UK, and my coworkers will not stop coming up to me to talk about the US election. I find it stressful and unpleasant to think about in my own time, never mind at work, but does anyone have suggestions for how to get people to knock it off? I’ve been saying “I’ve already voted, I find it unpleasant to think about and I don’t want to talk about it at work”, but they often keep talking at me anyway – one person yesterday flat-out said “I don’t believe you”! I’m considering repeating that and walking away if they continue, or putting headphones on if they come up to me at my desk to ask “Have you seen…?”, but that feels rude…

    1. caledonia*

      Not helpful but as a British person, we shouldn’t be judging given what we are going through politically right now….

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        That’s probably why they do it, of course. Look at their train wreck and not our car crash!

    2. Danielle*

      I have this problem too!! I manage a lot of volunteers and they really don’t take the hint (or very blunt ‘I don’t talk about politics!’ line). I know my volunteers are a bit wary because they never expected Brexit to happen and now that it has, their wildest fears about Trump could happen too.

      I definitely think you should say ‘I don’t discuss politics at work and I don’t want to be a part of this conversation’ and walk away. I wouldn’t even mention that you’ve voted or find it unpleasant- voting and who you vote for is private! I’ve found that people can get very in-your-face about it and walking away is the only thing to do. The only thing that has helped me is locking myself in my office or scaring people with ‘Well when Overlord Trump rules the world…’

      1. Kerry*

        Yes, I totally agree it’s kind of a response to Brexit – it’s not even that they’re going “wow, your country is so screwed up!”, I think they’re trying to do a kind of “man, it’s awful all over, isn’t it?” solidarity. We do often talk about politics in general at work, so this is a change for me – which is why I’ve been feeling the need to explain why this specific subject is different.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          I think a lot of it is people are actually really scared, especially since Brexit – it’s kind of talking it out instead of bottling up fears. Which isn’t helpful for you! but it probably isn’t meant to be personal, and they may not realise that it is unless it’s spelt out.

          1. Mike C.*

            It doesn’t help that there’s a lot anti-immigrant sentiment cropping up in Europe right now.

            1. Annie Moose*

              On that note, I had a fascinating conversation with a guy I know in Germany the other day–he’s normally much more liberal than me, yet when it came to immigration, he was massively more anti-immigration that I was! It took us a few minutes to realize that we were looking at immigration from wildly different perspectives. When I, as an American, think of immigration, it’s almost entirely in terms of Mexican immigrants (and, despite what certain would-be politicians think, they’ve pretty universally been awesome, hard-working, law-abiding people), whereas for him, immigration is quite a different issue.

    3. Joanna*

      How about something like “I know the whole American election thing is probably really fascinating looking in from the outside. But, you remember how exhausting all the Brexit discussion and coverage was? Well American election campaigns go on for much longer and get as or more nasty. I can’t endure any more engagement with it. Now, about that dark chocolate teapot sales forecast you were working on…..” That way you’re both empathising with their interest and hopefully giving them a frame of reference to empathise with your needs.

    4. Artemesia*

      I am in Europe right now and have been for a couple of months precisely to avoid the US campaign. I get the same thing all the time — ‘what is wrong with the US?’ in one form or another. If they are British we just say, ‘yeah and what about Brexit’. Otherwise we just say ‘yeah its awful that is why we are here and not home.”

      You could say ‘Hey I left the country — what more could I do?’ i.e. make it a joke. (and you are in the UK so ‘Brexit!’

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        I travel to Europe a few times a year for work, and every time I’m there at least one person asks me some version of, “WTF is the deal with American politics?” It’s been going on since the 2008 election. My answer is always the same: that the process has been completely corrupted and destroyed by money. A couple years ago I explained the Citizens United decision to some European colleagues, and the were all completely appalled — especially the Swedes, since they are so egalitarian.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      Bring up brexit each time?

      I’m in a fairly politically aware office where we do chat about things pretty much as small talk, but no-one is forced to take part which I think is the issue. If you’ve said that you don’t want to discuss it and they keep pushing, they’re just being rude.

      If you think it wouldn’t cause you more hassle, then it might help to say “Look, it’s not what I want to talk about and I’m sure you don’t want to come across as rude…”

    6. Cristina in England*

      I haven’t had that this time around but people used to try and bait me like this all the time when I first moved here. Sympathies. I have already voted as well, and I just want it all to stop getting worse every day and be over.

    7. A. Nonymous*

      I’ve found the best way to deal with that is to be a broken record. “I know that this fascinates you, but I’m not comfortable talking about this at work. If this is about [insert work related thing] I would be happy to help you.”

      I have actually just flat out said “I think it’s best if we stop talking about this, now.” Every. Single. Time.

    8. Sunflower*

      I like what you are saying first. If they keep talking, I would go back with a ‘I’ve already told you I don’t like speaking about this at work so please do not bring up the election again.’ I wouldn’t be opposed to adding ‘do you understand?’.

      BTW headphones, repeating, is not rude THEY ARE RUDE. It’s rude when someone directly asks you to not do something and they do it anyway.

    9. Emilia Bedelia*

      I always say something “Ugh, I go to work to get AWAY from talking politics. This is my stress free, relaxed haven. Speaking of stress free and relaxed, what’s the news on *whatever emergency we’re working on right now*?” This always get a laugh because “stress free” and “relaxed haven” are basically the opposite of my job most of the time, but it usually works pretty well to get people to stop. If they’re very determined to keep talking, “I’m so done hearing about politics- this sounds like a great time for a coffee break” and walking away works fine. Taking a humorous approach is easier for me, and it actually makes me feel more comfortable being “rude” and walking away.

    10. Observer*

      Not rude at all. You have told them POLITELY that you don’t want to talk about it and they insist. That’s what is rude. As for accusing you of lying?! That person lost any expectation of even a semblance of politeness.

    11. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Im in the UK too and rather thankful I am out of the workforce at the moment (and until the week after the election!) because I don’t want to deal with it. Comments do crop up from time to time in text messages with friends, but most people understand if you dont want to talk about it.

      Last year this time, however, folks kept wanting to talk about it and I just shut it down saying “I won’t talk about the election until the actual year it is happening”. That seemed to work well. And when the drama llama (another American) would try and get people to talk to him about Trump stuff happening I would just get up and walk away or say that I wasn’t paying much attention to the election this time.

      Frankly I’ve gotten more questions about Brexit impacts because my visa status is EU reliant. I don’t like to do tit for tat, but when folks have gotten on my nerves in the past about American politics I throw BoJo back in their face and that seems to shut them up pretty good.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      “I don’t believe you!” wth.

      “Okay, you have a right to believe whatever you want. Now, I must get back to my work here.”

      “Hmm. It really does not matter if you believe me or not. I am returning to my work anyway.”

      “I asked you to stop talking about this. That is a polite request and has nothing to do with what you do or don’t believe.”

      “If you don’t believe me what I am saying that means you can stop asking, right?”

      Really, there is only so much you can say about a 100 car pile up on the freeway and then you have exhausted the topic. Same deal here.

    13. The Strand*

      I have been there, but in a different country, being asked about Bill, not Hillary. I couldn’t very well push off on the boss, though.

      But if they’re roughly equals, I’d bait them by answering a comment or two… then talking about Brexit, and the right of the far right in Europe, and … (thank you AAM readers for teaching this) … Merkelating…

      Or you could just shame them by saying, “I guess that old saw about Britons being loath to bring offense or be rude isn’t really accurate, huh?”

    14. mander*

      I wonder what aspect your colleague doesn’t believe? That you voted already?

      Not that it matters, though. This election has somehow taken over my brain and I’m even annoying myself at this point. I guess because I live in the UK permanently so I’ve already been suffering the Brexit trauma, so my weakened state has left me vulnerable?

      I guess the best thing to do is tell them over and over that you’re sick of the topic and ignore further questions.

  15. bassclefchick*

    Well, the new job is slow going. The person who trains me keeps getting frustrated with me and yells at me instead of showing me how to correct a mistake. Part of the problem is my anxiety is through the roof so I end up crying at the least provocation. Which never helps. I’m so terrified that I won’t make it through the probationary period that every little thing I do wrong just makes me panic.

    I did hear in a third party way (I have a friend who also works there. She talked to one of my coworkers and related what was said) that a coworker who was also trained by the same person went through the same thing and thinks I’m doing fine. She also said they don’t want me to walk out. Would be nice if they told me that directly. I don’t get told when I do something well.

    And then I received an email from a boss at one of my recent temp assignments saying she has an opening and wants to talk to me. Great. Where were you 3 months ago? But the rumors of layoffs there are getting stronger and I have a feeling the position is limited term, so I said no.

    I’m going to stick this new job out as long as I can. I like the job and think eventually it will be a good fit. But man, the growing pains are stressing me out!

    Thanks for all the encouragement everyone!

    1. Pot Meeting Kettle*

      Feeling your pain bassclefchick! My current boss is also frustratingly unwilling to train me properly. I wish all the luck in weathering this uncertain period!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Mine is, but they can’t seem to agree on how to do things yet, so as soon as they tell me “Do this,” it turns into “No, do this.” Arrrrgghhh!!

        I miss my job the way it was and my old boss. :(

        1. Pot Meeting Kettle*

          Oh my GOD mine too. Even worse when the conflicting instructions are staggered, and when one of the bosses ask you, they ask it in a way that implies you wasted somebody’s time doing stupid things. ARGH

    2. NicoleK*

      You have my sympathy. I just started a new job this week and it appears that I’ll need to take charge of my own training and learning. The two people responsible for training me, my boss and my coworker, seem to be very inexperienced in training.

  16. thehighercommonsense*

    Someone at my organization leaked a confidential document to [the organization the document was about]. If it was just information that would have been better if the recipient didn’t know, or was kind of embarrassing, that would be one thing, but this was pretty important stuff, with interesting repercussions. (No, I don’t work on any political campaigns.)

    My manager claims that they can’t possibly have any idea who did it, and that even if they found out, that person can’t get fired. I….really want to hand in my two weeks’ notice, yesterday. Stuff happens, I know that. But knowing that chances are good that one of my coworkers did this, and that there will be no accountability for it…I just can’t.

    Has anyone been in a situation like this? Did you stay with the organization? Or is my instinct to get the heck out of Dodge correct?

    1. SophieChotek*

      You say it will have repercussions? So you mean you as an employee will get worse treatment now? Pay cuts? I mean, maybe you do want to start looking, but not sure if it’s because of this one incident or if this is part of a line of problem.

      1. thehighercommonsense*

        There are multiple problems in my org, unfortunately, I just felt like they might be tolerable and part of the upheaval caused by wider changes. Now that this is happened, I’m 1) not convinced that culture change is ever going to happen 2) this feels like an order of magnitude level difference from “cultural changes tend to cause rough times in organizations”.

    2. Construction Safety*

      I don’t get why leaking a confidential document to the subject party wouldn’t get someone fired unless it was a whistle blower situation.

      1. thehighercommonsense*

        Definitely not a whistleblower situation. I don’t know why, either. I mean, how can you deal with having people you know or suspect are untrustworthy on your team? Investigate and figure out where it came from, and either improve the process (if it was a process weakness) or fire the person (if it was a person).

        1. Observer*

          That’s actually why this is such a huge red flag to me. It sounds like the manager is working on the assumption that he can’t trust anyone anyway, so what difference does it make if he’s been proven correct?

          Is there someone higher up you can talk to? Not in “you need to find the culprit”, because it never works to tell management how to do their jobs. But in a “Could you help me understand the thinking here? This seems like a significant breach, and worthy of severe consequences. What purpose is served by letting it go?”

          There are a number of possible responses here, and I think that they will either be actually useful, of give you some information that could help you decide next steps.

          1. thehighercommonsense*

            That is a really good way to approach it–thank you! I was so stunned, I couldn’t believe they wouldn’t take action to deal with it.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            The times I have seen something of this magnitude go unchecked is because something else that is far worse is going on. They don’t have the bandwidth to pick up on this one and deal with the bigger issue also.

            Observer is right, ask the question and see what you think about the answer.

            If you have reason to believe this one will bite you later on, then yes build a plan to move on. And roll out that plan.
            If you think that you are ashamed of your workplace and how they handle things, then start your casual, non-urgent, job search. Commit to searching on a regular basis until you find that new place. (I say this because most of the time when we decide we are ashamed of our employer that feeling does not go away. Ever.)

    3. Sunflower*

      Well I guess the questions I would ask are
      1. Was this document leaked on purpose or could it have been a mistake?
      2. What was the nature of the information? Is it possible the person leaked it because they felt a moral obligation to do so(not saying that makes it right necessarily but I’d be more willing to let this go if this leak exposed someone breaking the law or mistreating people, etc)
      3. Why would they not be able to fire them? I would think if your dealing with this high level of classified information, there would be a pretty strict policy on what happens if you intentionally release this info

      1. thehighercommonsense*

        1. The only person who could have leaked it by mistake in the way it was leaked was me (I checked, I didn’t). Nobody else would have been able to (sorry to be vague, it’s the way our processes work). The other possibilities are that someone random in the office saw the document and leaked it (possible, our chains of custody need work, but nobody outside the org seems to have been in the area at the relevant times).
        2. Don’t want to get into identifying information here, but it did not have to do with any kind of moral obligation. The benefit would be to the other org and their employees.
        3. I have no idea, though we are one of those orgs where firing takes forever and has a million layers of bureaucracy, so I’m reading “we couldn’t fire the person” as “it would be too much hassle to fire the person.”

  17. Dave*

    I GOT A JOB!

    I was offered Job A last Friday afternoon. The offer was a good one, and I liked the organization well enough, but I wasn’t totally sold that the job was for me. The manager had said that the position was new and would evolve over time, but I still wasn’t 100% sure it was a great match. He said to read the offer over the weekend and we’d chat on Monday if I had any questions.

    In the meantime, I contacted Job B immediately to let them know I had another offer in hand, emphasizing that I felt that they were my top choice and asking if they might have a decision by early the following week.

    On Monday, nothing from Job B. I had the call with Job A’s hiring manager. I did have some questions, some of which he was able to answer, but a few he had to refer to HR. When I got the answer to those, he wanted to book another call. He tried for Tuesday but I (honestly) said it wasn’t a great day for me so we scheduled a call to give them the decision Wednesday at 2.

    I finally heard from Job B first thing Tuesday morning. They said they did want to proceed with an offer but wanted to perform a reference and background check first. I provided my references and submitted the online background check form.

    Wednesday, I was very stressed out that I wouldn’t hear back from Job B before I had the call from Job A at 2. Finally at around 10:30 I got a call from HR at Job B. They wanted to confirm my salary range. I mentioned I had an offer of $x from Job A. She said they were hoping to match or beat that and that I’d get an offer shortly. Finally at about noon I got another phone call with the verbal offer. They did match Job A’s offer (but putting all compensation into salary rather than reserving a small portion as a variable incentive as Job B did). I got the written version a few minutes later, reviewed it, and accepted.

    I told Job B that I thought they looked like a great place to work and that I really enjoyed meeting everyone there, but ultimately made a very difficult decision that the specific role I was being offered wasn’t a great fit. The hiring manager was extremely gracious and said he wanted to keep my resume on file in case something that was a better fit comes along.

    Ultimately, though, the most important thing is I HAVE A JOB! Thanks to everyone who’s been supportive in these open threads the last few months, and to Alison, whose advice was always spot on.

  18. Sutemi*

    Does anyone have resources or advice on what to do when I have to work with someone more senior on a project who is very verbose and won’t answer straight questions? He is experienced, but quite new to the company. I changed career paths 8 months ago but have 8 years experience with this company and know the key players and culture much better. Several people have commented to me that he is way too slow, tells us things we all already know, is on step 1 still when the rest of us are on step 5. Conversely, he has told me multiple times that other leaders on the team are too inexperienced and too detail oriented. He treats our relationship like he is mentoring me, which I would be OK with if I trusted his opinions to be accurate.
    I don’t want him to fail, I want him to do good work but more importantly I don’t want me to fail and need to look good.

    1. Susan C.*

      After rereading, I’m pretty sure you two are on the same level within the team, right? In that case, I’d recommend smiling, nodding, and doing whatever you were doing anyways.

      At most, nudge him away from stuff you know is blatantly wrong (rather than sub-optimal or out of synch) or that will affect the team as a whole, but otherwise, do not engage. Let his manager do their job. If nothing on that front seems forthcoming, and he’s starting to seriously drag down the project, maybe go for the tried and true tactic of asking for advice – the manager, not the guy, obviously.

      1. fposte*

        And for your own mental health shut him down when he complains about the leaders and push back when co-workers complain about him. “I definitely want to know if there’s an error that I need to correct or that’s substantive enough for [manager] to know, but otherwise, no; he’s new and let’s give him time.”

    3. Anonish*

      It’s crazy how similar this is to a situation I’m dealing with. I actually just sent your post to a coworker and asked her if she thought you might be one of our team members! I can’t wait to see what advice is offered because this is a point for point description of someone I work with and I know most of my team is at the end of our ropes in frustration.

    4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      In my case (peer at equal level1):

      1) Work around him when possible–are there other people that can answer the question and move things along? CC him in on emails as need be.
      2) Let him investigate whatever path he’s currently on (that he’ll get to in his own time) and work on parts of the project that he is not currently working on to get them done.
      3) Set aside time to let them talk (and talk, and talk), realizing they aren’t going to change. Make decisions as a team based on all inputs (even if that person doesn’t agree). GET IT IN WRITING after the
      meeting with an e-mail ASAP.
      4) Have a list of things to cover. When they talk (and talk, and talk), make sure you go back to your bulleted list and confirm the answer. If no answer, propose your own and see what they think. If you don’t have a proposal because it’s something way outside your skillset, see #1.

      Mine is a looper (no decision, come full circle to the start of the discussion with no decision, repeat as necessary), and mostly agreeable, so your strategy may change if this person is very stubborn or forceful. But I’ve found no way to make the person commit…they usually think later and want to debate again (or change their minds). This is why I get it in writing. :)

      If they are the ultimate decision maker for certain points of the project and won’t commit (so not a project team decision), go over their head to the boss.

      Oh, finally–you can’t save him from himself. He’s been like this long before you and will be like this long after you. Totally recommend suggestions if he seems amenable to change, but don’t be surprised if he thanks you and continues on doing his thing.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh, I hate this stuff. It’s tough because you don’t want to alienate the person but at the same time you can’t afford the time sink.

      I have done a few things:
      1) [Wait for him to go through his process.]
      “Okay so, in short, did X work for Y situation, I can’t tell from your answer and I just need a yes or a no.”
      In a similar vein, you can preface your questions with “Bob, I am looking for the punchline answer here.”

      2) Look for opportunities to explain some of the things you have learned about your company. “Bob, I have learned that emails with bullet points work much better than lengthy explanations.”

      3) When he puts down the leadership, let him know, “Bob, I really can’t go there with you. If you have difficulty with someone probably your best bet would be to talk with them directly. For me, I have to maintain a working relationship with everyone so I am trying to focus on what people do well.”

      4) When people comment to you that he is way too slow redirect them to Bob. “Well, Sue, that is something you might be able to gently point out to Bob.” Refuse to absorb your cohorts concerns and worries, redirect them to solution based conversations. I found that many complaints dried up when I started insisting that people work to remedy their complaint.

  19. Miss Elaine E*

    Hope you feel better soon Alison! I love your site — and your insights!

    I’m writing because I don’t know how to (or whether I should) address this situation:

    I work remotely for a company doing a specialized type of writing. I’ve been there since March. Generally, if we meet certain metrics we have been receiving recognition (think “Attaboy!” “Attagirl!”). For the previous quarter, having met and exceeded that metric, I was pleasantly surprised to receive an online gift card! Great!

    Of course that inspired me to continue as I’ve been doing. I have met the metric for each month in this past quarter and gotten my monthly “Attaboy/girl!” However, the quarter ended Sept. 30 and there has yet been no recognition for anyone, either for the month or the quarter. Asked my immediate supervisor in passing (i.e. an “oh by the way” in an email about another issue) and she said surely the recognition would be coming soon as in “surely by the end of next week.” That week has come and gone with no recognition for me or anyone else. This supervisor is not the one who sends the email about that recognition.

    Couple of considerations:

    * The company I work for has recently been absorbed by another. Perhaps the recognition is being phased out or was overlooked in the transition.
    * I was hired in March along with many others, so many of us are learning the company’s ins and outs along with me. When I noticed the “attaboy/girl!” it made me work harder (yay!) and once I started getting the recognition, I noticed an uptick in others also getting the recognition. Perhaps to the point that too many are up for the quarterly gift card. (I can see where it can start to add up.)
    *There is no provision anywhere that this recognition is obligatory on the company.

    So, the question is, do I mention it to the person who sends out the usual email or does it come across as greedy/entitled etc.? It’s a $50 gift card by the way, about two hours of work. It won’t significantly affect my budget but for this part-time worker, it’s certainly appreciated. (Yes, I did thank them last time.)

    Your thoughts?

    Thanks in advance.

    *

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s okay to ask the usual email person since you have a reasonable broader question that makes it more than just “gimme.” “I noticed the gift cards haven’t been awarded this quarter; is that program being phased out with the ownership transition?”

    2. self employed*

      Do you have a reason to assume it is a guaranteed reward? It may just be an occasional incentive.

      1. Blue Anne*

        This was my question too. I’ve worked at a firm where you could get rewards like gift cards or even an extra day of holiday, but it was very much on the basis of “someone noticed you were doing unusually good work and nominated you”. Some people or teams got them pretty regularly, but not on a schedule or anything.

        1. Miss Elaine E*

          No. I don’t. I’ve only been there since March. So I’ve only been there for one full quarter and I work remotely, so it’s sometimes hard to gauge the culture.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, I would ask. You have the benefit of being new, so you can just say you’re trying to clarify the process since you weren’t sure if this was a regular thing or not.

  20. AliceBD*

    Where do you go to find job offers? I’m job searching in a city a few hours away; I want to move there to be closer to family, so I’m mostly using job boards as I don’t know what companies there I would want to work for (other than some universities, and I’m watching their job pages). But I keep getting SO MANY unrelated jobs and few related jobs. If my current job is teapot spout design, a subset of teapot design, then I put in teapot design as the search term because I want to look more broadly. I also want full time positions, and I’ve indicated this wherever possible. But the vast majority of the results that come back are for part time teapot polishing jobs, with a brief mention that you may be helping a little with teapot design (regardless of the fact that these don’t make sense). Or they are full time Director of Teapots positions, which have authority over teapot designers, and which I am not yet qualified for (and don’t want to do). It doesn’t help that there will be 5 jobs posted daily for teapot polishers and then the posts are reposted daily, so they seem like a bigger portion of the positions that exist than they really are. I am using Indeed, Monster, Career Builder, and LinkedIn.

    1. Murphy*

      During my last job search, I had the best luck with Indeed(and found my current job that way). I found that those others suffered from the drawbacks you mentioned: the same jobs being reposted daily, or part time showing up in a full time search.

    2. bb-great*

      I subscribed to Indeed’s daily emails; they search for my industry once a day and send me only the new results. It works pretty well. I also use the job boards/newsletters of professional orgs in my field. Some industries recruit a lot on LinkedIn so I would look into that if you haven’t. But mostly it sounds like you just have to keep an eye on things and wait for something really relevant. I’m going through this right now so I know the pain!!

    3. Kelly L.*

      The websites of places I wanted to work at. A lot of times there’ll be jobs listed there, depending on the field.

    4. littlemoose*

      Any professional association websites or job boards for your field? Maybe university job boards for alums (that’s where I found my job)? I also used to see jobs listed in my city’s Business Journal that I didn’t see posted anywhere else.

    5. WorkerBee 23*

      I also used Indeed.com to find my next job – I looked literally every single morning, cbecked all of the postings marked “new.” LinkedIn had a few decent prospects but Indeed was the most useful. Good luck to you!

    6. Fabulous*

      You can do searches subtracting certain words as well. Are you trying that? Here’s an example of what you could write: “Teapot Design -polishing -part -part-time -PT -director”

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      If you’re in IT, try johnsonjobs.com. I think it links to Dice, but it’s got a pretty good search engine that will narrow things down and eliminate a lot of the jobs that are not relevant to your skill set.

      I don’t know if it’s just for IT, or for all fields.

    8. Ashie*

      I found out about my current position through Facebook, of all places. I stumbled across a Facebook group specifically for “(My Small Industry) Job Postings” and someone had posted it there.

    9. CMT*

      LinkedIn and the websites of specific places I want to work. Can you do some research into employers in that city so you can target your searching?

    10. Sibley*

      Some industries use recruiting companies heavily, so maybe look into that? My company doesn’t post on the job boards a lot.

  21. Tomato Frog*

    I have an interview at an academic library! Archives/special collections. East Coast. Should a dress with a blazer be okay or do I need a suit?

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Thank you!

        Plain gray or navy a-line dress, unless I see a pencil dress I prefer when I’m out blazer shopping.

    3. Damn It Hardison!*

      Dress with a blazer should be just fine. Academia tends to be a little less formal. (former employee of East coast archives/special collections)

    4. Seal*

      Academic librarian and department head here. Either is fine, although in my opinion a suit is best. Regardless, err on the side of conservative – nothing too short or low-cut, no ridiculously high heels (you’ll most likely be doing a lot of walking anyway) or extreme jewelry. Don’t forget about your bag – again, err on the side of conservative. The most important thing is to look polished and professional. We still talk about a candidate for a librarian position here who showed up for her interview dressed for a night at the club. As in sky-high heels, a low-cut mini dress and pounds of makeup. This was someone with a fair amount of experience, too; in other words, someone who should have known better. Needless to say, she didn’t get the job.

      1. Cassandra*

        Concur, especially about the shoes, though I’m not sold on suits unless you actually enjoy wearing them. Jacket dresses suit (so to speak) me better, and can be a similar-or-only-slightly-less degree of formal. Suits cut me off at the diaphragm, which is not great for job talks.

        For archives/special collections, avoid anything that could catch on something. (I tend to like trailing garb myself, but it wouldn’t be right in this context!)

        Good luck! I hope the place turns out to be a great fit.

      2. Tomato Frog*

        Thank you! I tend to lean conservative in dress, but I know people who have interviewed for academic library positions here in New York who got the job in a dress and a cardigan. This will be outside New York, though.

        Would opague black or navy tights be a no-go, in your view? I’m not sure how cold it’s going to be.

        If you talked about the nightclub interviewee before on this blog, I think I actually remember it! I think of it occasionally.

        1. Whats In A Name*

          If you are wearing a dress I would say opaque tights or hose are a must, really. I know I lean conservative, but for something like an interview I feel that bare legs are a no-no.

          Just be sure the dress and the jacket are tailored to fit well and that you wear comfy shoes, all of which have been expressed already. I would definitely not do the cardigan, but it sounds like you were not leaning that way at all, just sharing.

            1. Whats In A Name*

              Yes. I agree. But what I am saying here is either option is fine in this setting with a fitted blazer and dress. Just wear something on those legs if you wear a dress.

              1. Tomato Frog*

                Gotcha. Yeah, I was going to have something on my legs regardless. I’m glad if I can get away with non-flesh tones.

    5. ModernHypatia*

      Dress with blazer sounds fine. Make sure your shoes are something you can walk in comfortably, though! (I always did at least 5 miles over the course of the day in academic library interviews.)

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Yep, I have tried and tested shoes, fortunately! Last time around, I was wearing sensible but new wedges, and I was in pain by the end of the three hours the interview took. This one’s 9-5 and I take no chances.

        1. bibliovore*

          academic, archival librarian and department manager.
          dress and blazer is fine. second the shoes you can walk in.
          black tights or navy tights are fine

          as long as I am giving advice-
          have examples of difficult patron/researcher/student interactions and how you resolved them successfully
          bring a note book and a mechanical pencil or two (no pens are permitted in our work areas)
          tuck a protein bar into your bag.
          read the latest issues of SAA journals.
          bring a few copies of your updated CV (have a CV prepared even if you were asked for a resume)

  22. Ayshe*

    So I have a question about business cards that I cant seem to find anywhere else. I am in school for broadcasting and I am doing volunteer work and internships to get experience. I want to make business cards for networking but I want to put something on there aside from my contact information. I could put my school name (It carries a lot of weight in this industry) or I could put Aspiring On-Air Talent or something along those lines. Any advice??

    1. Joanna*

      Do you have (or would you consider making) an online portfolio of your work that you could include a link to? As for the school thing, I don’t know what’s standard in your industry, but I’d wonder if including it on your cards would make you come across as quite young?

      Given how cheap it’s possible to get business cards made though places like Vistaprint, you could consider having two different lots of business cards. For a while I had one batch for more social interactions that had social media links and a pretty design and another batch for formal networking without social media links and with a more formal design.

      1. SophieChotek*

        +1 to portfolio link on your business card.

        and +1 to two sets; I used to have two for similar purposes.

      2. Ayshe*

        Well in networking, people are going to see that I am young, so thats kinda moot. I want people to know why they have my business cards so just something. Im not in the radio industry yet and even as I gain experience, the first few years at least, im gonna be a lacky without an decent title. I actually already have business cards but theyre for my cosplay and custom accessories hobby.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yeah, don’t repurpose those cards. ;-)

          What type of work are you currently doing and/or looking for? Could you list those skills, briefly, on the card? I’m thinking something like this:

          ————————————————————————————
          AYSHE LASTNAME

          – On-air announcing – Advertising copyright and production
          – Other skill – Student at Radio University, class of 2018

          email address & phone
          link to portfolio
          ———————————————————————————–

    2. Sunflower*

      I would put your major and anticipated graduation date/year and then the school name under it. I think it makes sense for you to put your college on there.

    3. CMT*

      When I was in grad school, they had a deal on business cards for students. They were the school’s business cards with logo and stuff, and then you could put your program and class. Maybe your school has something like this?

  23. Trill*

    I have been working at a new job for several months now. Overall it has been going well. Theres been a lot of changes since I started: several changes in senior staff and overall improvements to efficiency in my area and getting things more organized.
    However, the “senior” person on my team has been out on medical leave since before I started so I have never worked with him. It’s still up in the air when he will return, but it could be soon. As the other staff here has gotten to know me, they have started warning me that he can be difficult to work with. According to them, he is very set in his ways, thinks he is better than everyone else, is not reliable (even disappears for half of the day), and one person said he “has a problem with women”.
    So needless to say, I am worried about how things will go when he returns. We’ve made a lot of changes while he’s been gone, and I’m worried that he will try to undo those changes or have a negative attitude towards them since he is the “senior” in our area and they were made without consulting him. I also hate working with a teammate who is not reliable, is egotistical and possibly sexist.
    Any advice on how to handle his return? I’m generally good at getting along with difficult people (although I don’t always enjoy it), and I’m confident in my work and in the necessity of the changes we’ve made, but if he is overly unreasonable, I’m not sure how to handle that.

    1. VA Anon*

      Wait until he comes back and form your own opinion. I’ve had people warn me about working with a particular person in the past, and we ended up getting along just fine.

    2. Artemesia*

      What has served me well when for example a teacher decades ago and hearing all sorts of stories about a particular terrible student and then seeing him on my rolls for the next semester, or when a new department head with a bad reputation was appointed, or when starting a new job with someone reputed to be difficult is to very consciously give them a clean slate. I would go in committed to assuming this guy will be great to work with, that you are pleased to see him back and that you are looking forward to his input. I would think about ways you can project that to him in your first interactions and have planned what you will say. If he gets prickly, think about how you will interact around the issue in ways that honor his experience and welcome his input while ignoring his demeanor and let you also hold your ground. Think about things you would want to consult him on.

      Going in with a chip on your shoulder will result in bad things. Going in with a careful strategy to connect with him increases the odds of good things happening. No guarantee but it sure has worked for me. I got a letter from the father of the ‘awful student’ who wrote that it was the first class he had had in our field that he had looked forward to. ALL I did was treat him as if I had never heard a thing about him and be welcoming; he was one of 160 students I had that semester of high school and so I certainly wasn’t doing all that much special for any one student — He was fine in the class.

      With the grumpy or difficult bosses, I have had similar results. Don’t borrow trouble here but prepare to make the new relationship positive from the start but also hold your ground. Good luck.

    3. Charlotte, not NC*

      Definitely take their advice with a grain of salt. Even if he is difficult, he might not be with you specifically.

      At an old job, a coworker transferred in from another state, and I was warned that he was difficult. After interacting with him a few times, it became obvious to me that he shared a lot of traits with a relative of mine who has Asperger’s. I had experience dealing with his quirks, and I think most coworkers didn’t understand them and were uncomfortable with them. We ended up working very well together.

      1. Lance*

        Exactly; you never know what’ll happen. Let the hearsay stay as hearsay, and as people are saying, judge by what you see when the coworker does come back. Maybe he’ll be difficult, as they say, or maybe you’ll get on fine; it’s just a matter of finding out with him personally.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Their experience may not be your experience, OP. And like Charlotte says here it boils down to the differences in people.

        I remember one place I worked. I had a great boss. Probably one of my top five great bosses of my life.
        The problem came in where NO ONE could see that. Everyone there thought the guy was an idiot. This would be on a par with you say the sky is blue and I try to convince you that it is actually brown. There was no way I was going to convince these people this guy was a great boss.

        I had to dig deeper to find out what was at play here.

        There was a supervisor who was VERY toxic. Great Boss was locked into Toxic Supervisor because he could not find a replacement for her and he could not do her work himself. This person was so toxic that people could only see the havoc she caused. Added wrinkle she was as nice as pie to me in the beginning so I could not see why everyone was against her.

        I ended up quitting because there is not enough ibuprofen in the world to take away the headaches I experienced because of her death threats. Before I left I had a lengthy conversation with one person about the situation. I said, “You actually have a Great Boss who is in a very bad spot.” Since this person was well liked, I knew she would advise others once she understood.

        I ran into her a few years later. She was so happy to see me. The first thing she said was, “You were right. I have a great boss. Once Toxic Supervisor was gone the whole place changed. I love my job.”

        There is always one more layer of complexity to the story line, OP. You may be able to see right through the situation and work with it quite well. If you are lucky you might get others to calm down also.

  24. mazzy*

    I hate open offices, I’m seriously considering leaving my job just to get one with an office. Besides zero privacy and people talking over me all the time, I now am dealing with office music. And not good or soothing or ambient music, annoying “pop” music from now. I seriously can’t concentrate with it on echoing in my head. It is really sad that they care more about a “fun” atmosphere than people doing actual work. Not to mention it’s all the lower level people who have time to sit and make playlists and things, which upper management is ok with. I’ve started just leaving whenever they turn the music on. If my high level work isn’t important, I’m not going to fight to do it.

    1. CoffeeLover*

      I worked in an open office and didn’t mind in the slightest. The big difference was that I worked with conscientious human beings. We had meeting rooms and phone rooms (to take calls) to avoid disturbing people in the open office. Mostly I think this worked for us because every one was BUSY and had work that needed to get done. Someone playing pop music in the office would have caused an uproar. So I guess I’d like to say, open offices aren’t the problem, people are the problem… but people sometimes suck so open offices don’t work (like gun laws in the US :P)

      1. Susan C.*

        Did the name of that company have a really good Scrabble score? Otherwise we have now, amazingly enough, confirmed the existence of TWO workplaces with functioning open plan offices. ;)

        1. CoffeeLover*

          It’s one of the Big 4. As far as I know, open offices are used effectively at all the Big 4 and most strategy/management consulting firms. Like Bexes firm, there are no assigned desks except for the support staff that are there every day. In fact, I would bet Bex works at one of the firms I described in my first sentence. Like her/him, I also love the open office plan. It makes collaborating/working together a lot smoother (what open offices are meant to do I suppose) and I don’t really need my own office. Plus, it was set up so everyone got a lot of sunlight and great views.

      2. Bex*

        My current office is open, and doesn’t even have assigned desk/workstations. You book a desk for a day or a week at a time. It actually works out great since you can avoid certain people if you want to. And because your neighbors change often, no one really gets up to BEC status. We also have tons of conference rooms for call/meetings and phone booths for short calls. There are also designated “quiet” sections. There were a lot of people who were totally against the change when it happened, but overall I’ve been thrilled

      3. Sassytype*

        My company also has a successful open plan, but they also gave everyone noise cancelling headphones.

    2. AFRC*

      Can you say something to a manager? That is pretty ridiculous. Why do people not understand that you can hear them?!?!

    3. Jennifer*

      Been there, except it was with country music. I spoke up to my manager (note: something I very rarely do because it usually causes me more trouble) and well…people would be asked to curb it, they might do it for a bit, then they’d put the music back on. This happened so much (or I’d get talked to by the country fan about but why don’t I like it*) that I just gave up. It wasn’t worth it. I’d have my own headphones on and that was the best I could do.

      * answer: usually I’m fine with country, but the station you listen to plays the worst bro-country crap, screaming out “IT’S FRIDAY NIGHT!” on Monday morning….

  25. Cam*

    Would it be terrible for my husband to get a job with Wells Fargo, what with all of the bad stuff going on with them recently? It sounds like it would be mostly data entry for processing loans and he would be a contractor for a little while until hired on full time. He’s been out of work for about two months, so he’s not quite desperate yet, but he’s getting there. Since he’s on unemployment, he can’t turn down the offer without losing his unemployment benefits, if he ends up seeing any red flags at the interview. And speaking of red flags, are there any good ways to ask in the interview about how wells Fargo is planning on handling their problems?

    1. Dawn*

      Well… I think go into it eyes open, with the real possibility that the poop might hit the fan in a huge, ugly way or there might be layoffs or the contract might not ever turn into a full time job. He could work there and still apply to other jobs!

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yep, I agree. Plus his start date will clearly be after the Well Fargo thing broke, so no one can wonder if he was involved. I understand wondering if one should work for such a company; one can hope they are changing things now. It sort of reminds me of how right after the big oil spill, a friend’s mom was trying to figure out if it was ethical to buy BP shares when they plunged; I think BP bounced back….

    2. Anon WF Employee*

      I currently work for them, and I have to say the division makes a big difference. Retail banking, where the current scandal is, is a different beast entirely to mortgage banking, which is where I work. They had their mortgage scandal a few years back with the rest of the industry and the culture now is to scrupulously follow both the letter and spirit of the laws and regulations.

      And a good thing about their temp jobs is that you’re pretty likely to be hired on, and once you get a foot in the door it’s easy to move up in the company.

      1. Anon WF Employee*

        I should say I’m in mortgage servicing, not originations. I don’t know what their culture is like.

    3. Another WF employee*

      Coming in to second or third that it definitely depends on the area you’re in. I’m in operations and the culture there is fantastic.

  26. Ghost Pepper*

    Would you ever accept a job offer that met your professional and financial goals but was located in an area that is politically the opposite of your values?

    My friend is a progressive (bleeding-heart liberal), culture-loving, Jewish guy. He is considering a move from NY to a rural town in Alabama because of a wonderful job opportunity.

    I mention his religious affiliation only because I’ve heard from a couple Southerners that being Jewish in the South is a different experience than, say, being Jewish in NY. The reception is a bit…chillier. Perhaps these couple Southerners are way off and are just feeding into a stereotype that is simply inaccurate.

    Also, he has never lived in a “red state” before. I’m a little bit worried for him.

    Has anyone had a similar experience? Or can anyone shed some light on this? I guess I just want someone to tell me that he’s going to be all right.

    1. Rachel Greene*

      Im a Yankee currently living in the South. Ive lived here for almost 10 years and luckily, I found a good group of friends and settling in quicker than most in my city. Ive lived in two Southern cities, one being Nashville, which i found surprisingly very un-welcominging. I actually had someone tell me that people from NV dont really get to know new people because the city is so transient and they dont want to invest in someone who wont be here in a year.

      Is your friend going to be close to a bigger city where he might be able to meet people? I think that would help. In my opinion, the culture of the South is just really different and pretty non-inclusive but of you can find pockets of friendliness, it helps.

    2. Violet Fox*

      Have him go visit the area in Alabama. See if there is any sort of Jewish community if that matters to him, and generally how life is before he moves there.

      There are actually a lot of Jewish communities in the South, and communities can be very accepting. Generally if there it is the type of place that has an interesting job offer, and enough of a local economy to support that, things will probably be fine.

      Really though, having him visit first and get a feel of the place before moving is a very good idea, but I tend to think of this as generally good idea for any sort of long distance job offer.

    3. Dawn*

      I grew up in the South (NC) and haven’t ever heard or witnessed anything bad ever being said about Jews, ever. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church and the only thing I ever heard about Jews was that all good Christians should support them and the reunification of Israel because once Israel was reunified and all the Jews lived there Jesus would come back.

      Also, if it makes him feel any better the partner of a good friend of mine is currently living/working at a tiny college in Alabama as a non-gender conforming punk lesbian feminist teaching Women’s Studies and hasn’t run into any issues so far, so I think your friend will probably be fine if a bit culture shocked.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I just have to put something here… the theory that all Christians should support Jews and Israel so we can all go back there is, however well-intentioned, offensive to many of us (Jewish people, that is!). This is something that we don’t hear much of in the Northeast (I’m a transplant from NYC to the Southeast). It’s not as blatant as the “you’re going to Hell” and “all Jews care about is money” rhetoric, but it’s pretty alienating nonetheless.

        For what it’s worth, I live in a place that’s pretty progressive and “blue” and I haven’t heard any anti-Semitic language directed toward me or anyone else, but I do know there are people here who don’t want me living in their neighborhoods. I belong to a very strong Jewish community. Most people I’ve encountered here are lovely and very well-meaning, but some look at me kind of funny when they see the Star of David around my neck. (A necklace I bought at a synagogue in Charleston, of all places!) From what I’ve experienced, Ghost Pepper’s friend is far more likely to hear the more subtle “you are other” language down south than any outright aggression.

      2. Observer*

        grew up in the South (NC) and haven’t ever heard or witnessed anything bad ever being said about Jews, ever. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church and the only thing I ever heard about Jews was that all good Christians should support them and the reunification of Israel because once Israel was reunified and all the Jews lived there Jesus would come back.

        That’s actually a good example of a really disrespectful and alienating thing for most Jews. Think about it for a second. What would it sound like if I said “All smart X party people should support Horrible Y party candidate, because if they win the nomination it will destroy the Y party.” (And that’s actually something I saw written withing the primary cycle.) This is pretty much what you are saying. Nice.

        1. Dawn*

          Yeah I mean… by giving the example I was absolutely not saying that I agree with it or anything! Or that it was an OK thing to say, or was any less hurtful than any of the other horrid things that could be said out of ignorance. It’s the only thing relating to Jews in the South that I have ever personally witnessed.

          1. Observer*

            I got that part. What I’m getting at is that you imply that it’s not so bad – and it really is quite bad.

            1. Dawn*

              Ah ok. I wasn’t trying to be fillipiant about it, just stating what I’d seen- the seriousness of my tone definitely got lost in typing vs talking! I appreciate you saying exactly why it’s offensive; hopefully I can use that to counter further ignorance when I go to visit NC.

    4. TL -*

      How rural? The South is quite different and the rural South tends to be poor and underserved; very different from the more charming and quaint of the
      Northeast small towns.

      That being said, it does have a lot of good points. What does your friend like to do?

    5. Murphy*

      Not all places in the south are created equal. Not everyone down here is a bad southern stereotype. I’m from the northeast, and I live in a southern city and it’s great. Some rural areas in the south may be less welcoming.

    6. Going underground for this one*

      Based on my own experience with a rural town in Alabama, I’d have to say “it varies.” How important is it to be around other Jewish people? The people I know wouldn’t be chilly toward him, but he’s very unlikely to find any kindred spirits. Or a nearby place of worship. Or a kosher restaurant. If these things matter to him, it’s going to be a cold, lonely place.

    7. Rhie*

      I’m Jewish and live in Jackson, MS–I’m not from the South although I’ve been bouncing around the area for a long time. If he’s going to be a rural area it will be harder, for sure, but that doesn’t mean your friend couldn’t have a rewarding experience there if he’s open to it. This also depends what part of the state he’s in–if it’s rural but close to a city then he’ll probably be able to get to a synagogue when he wants to, and probably even be able to choose from a couple of options if he’s close to Montgomery or Birmingham (as opposed to MS where the substantive Jewish life is all in Jackson). I would define myself as naturally Conservadox/traditional Conservative (in religious terms, not political) and I’ve found that it’s pretty easy to be religious in the South, even if that religion is Judaism–people tend to respect that you care about your faith. Personally, I’ve never had any negative experiences being Jewish here. No one’s ever tried to convert me, the community is very supportive of the synagogue, I wear my Star of David sweater to the annual Xmas party and it’s all good. I would caution against assuming that the area is totally red just because it’s rural Alabama. I mean, it probably is, but like I said, Jackson MS and even though my state is totally red, my county is reliably Democratic and there’s a nice little liberal community here. That being said, like Violet Fox, I would highly recommend a weekend visit to the area to see how your friend feels about it, because if he’s never lived in the South, well, it can be very different.

      1. Construction Safety*

        I lived in Columbus, the company I was with was applying for a Kosher certification of one of our products & when it came time for the inspection of our process/system by the Rabbi I told, depending on his level of observance, him he might want to bring his lunch with him. He said it wasn’t a problem.

    8. Artemesia*

      I did my whole career in a red state that is constantly in the news for really awful new legislative policies. But it was in a larger city with a substantial liberal minority and a very strong Jewish community. A small rural town would be altogether different. I could see moving to Atlanta or Nashville or even Birmingham if you had no better choices, but not to Outbacknowhere. I could see doing it as a sort of anthropological experiment with a plan to be there a few years, but I sure wouldn’t settle there if I wanted to raise a family. It was hard enough in a large not crazy alt-right city.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        Treating it like a sort of anthropological experiment sounds like you’re dehumanizing the people you disagree with. That’s got to be a stressful way to live.

        2. Mela*

          Maybe anthropology from 100 years ago! I framed my 3 years in a rural area in a very similar way and it actually de-stressed me and made me last much longer than I thought I would. Anthropology tries to understand why cultures are different, which is exactly the opposite of dehumanizing them.

        3. Anonthropologist*

          I am an anthropologist and that is really 100% the opposite of what we are trying to do! The goals of anthropology today are usually a) to show why apparently weird or foreign practices have their own internal logic that makes sense (which can include looking at parts of your own culture), and/or b) to show the impact of larger policies or systems on people’s actual lives, i.e. unintended consequences and local adaptations. If it comes out dehumanizing then it’s bad anthropology. (In line with its 19th/early 20th century colonial history though, so I get why you would say that. Too much baggage.)

          I think this advice is just saying “view yourself as an outsider here to learn something, and recognize that it may be uncomfortable, don’t get too depressed if it doesn’t feel like home.”

    9. Seal*

      I moved from a very liberal part of the Upper Midwest to the Deep South for a job almost a decade ago. It was absolutely the right thing to do career-wise; I’ve had tremendous opportunities here I never would have had elsewhere. But I also live in a liberal college town, which makes a huge difference. While I still cringe at the politics of the state in general, at least I’m surrounded by like-minded people who make living here bearable. That said, I’m job hunting with the intent of moving north. For me, the weather is the biggest factor – not a fan of long, hot summers.

    10. Manders*

      I grew up in Nashville, and I was raised by a Jewish dad and a Greek Orthodox mom to celebrate elements of both religions. I went to college in the northeast and now live in the PNW.

      Overall, northeasterners know the most about Judaism, and people in the PNW are the most clueless/sometimes inadvertently offensive. Southerners actually tend to be pretty polite to Jews, because many religious organizations there believe that the Jewish people are somehow essential to making the Rapture happen. I was sometimes told I was “exotic” even though I usually read as white in America. My friends did try to convert me a few times, but I know they meant well.

      That said–I lived in a city, and it was over 10 years ago. I’d worry about returning now, especially if dating or raising kids in a small town environment was a concern. Now that I’m an adult, things like access to a reliable abortion clinic should I need one, doctors who don’t judge my “sinful” sex life, etc. matter in a way they didn’t when I was a kid. And the political situation was different when I was a kid–certain things seem more toxic now.

        1. Manders*

          Yeah, I think that’s the biggest deal for me personally. I don’t feel particularly lonely or isolated when I’m not around other Jews, but being in an area where almost everyone else strongly believes that an essential part of your identity or lifestyle is immoral or sinful can be really, really rough.

          In my experience, finding a critical mass of people with similar views on that kind of social issue is more of a city/small town/country divide than a south/rest of the country divide.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I think that’s definitely something the OP’s friend should consider. Even though I’m not in the demographics they’re disparaging, it’s exhausting trying to deal with it because they just make me so mad.

            And just the other day, I noticed judgmental Jesus-y and “Trump’s just misunderstood!” posts start showing up on a relative’s FB wall. *sigh* Unfollow. It’s like an epidemic. I don’t need this stress.

    11. Trout 'Waver*

      I think it will depend a lot on your friend. I live in the somewhat rural South and my Jewish coworkers haven’t had any problems finding Jewish communities and synagogues. The only problems I see fitting in are when people from the North move to the South and act like they’re smarter, more cultured, or somehow better because of where they’re from.

    12. insert name here*

      I did it for 3 years. I am a minority, albeit not a religious minority. Got amazing experience and saved a ton of money. Just pick a place with a direct flight back to a big open-minded city!!

    13. Anon Marketer*

      I’m Jewish, I live in the south. For me, discrimination usually happened in school, not at work, and even then, it was pretty rare. Also, there are “red” Jews out there. I promise he’s not going to have a hard time at all. A lot of us realize what we’re getting into, and he probably did, too. Unless he starts expressing concern, he’s probably okay with it. :)

    14. BRR*

      In considering whether to accept the job, I wouldn’t focus on just the political climate but everything as a whole like you would for any job. How far from cultural opportunities is he? How large is the Jewish community? Does he want to be near family and friends? Are their future jobs for him in the area? Etc. I wouldn’t prioritize finances or a certain job over those things. What’s coming to mind is the number of times I’ve read of people in industries with fewer openings like librarians or professors moving to a place for a job and being super unhappy because they don’t like anything about the job or the area.

      My in laws have lived in a small town their entire lives. There is not a significant Jewish population there. Being raised Jewish, I would sort of call their reception chilly but not in a judgmental way. Just no familiarity due to lack of exposure.

    15. blackcat*

      I want to echo others who’ve said that what matters is how important it is to him to have a Jewish community.

      I’ve had tons of liberal friends live in deep red areas. Most of the time, it works just fine. I’ve also had a bunch of Jewish friends struggle in areas where there were few other Jews. The only person who stayed put was already married to another Jew. The others (5 people) all moved back to big cities with Jewish communities. It’s not that anyone was hostile to their faith, but that they felt very alone. So it wasn’t the reception that convinced them to leave, it was having to special order food for passover, celebrate the high holy days alone, etc. It would have been much harder if any of them kept kosher other than for holidays.

      So I’d worry much less about the politics and much more about religious community. If having a Jewish community doesn’t matter, then he’ll likely be fine.

    16. Pearl*

      I moved from Atlanta to Boston and I would agree that he needs to visit the area first. Politics may be less of an issue than the rural part. Especially if he lives in an urban area where walking and public transit is a thing, he needs to consider the impact of having to drive everywhere. My friends up here really don’t understand how much more TIME and DISTANCE are built into your life when you live in the South/rural areas. (If he’s from rural NY this will not be as much an issue.) When I visited my family with a friend, they were more thrown off than they were expecting by the fact that there was nothing within walking distance and no public transit nearby (and this was in the suburbs, so a drive to the store was 10 minutes as opposed to 45+ like it was at my grandparents’ rural house).

      Also if he keeps kosher to the extent of buying only kosher meat, this may necessitate a change in his shopping habits if there is no kosher deli in the nearest town. I am not Jewish but work in a shul. People here say when they lived in the South away from large Jewish communities, there were many places without a deli and they either had to eat non-kosher meat, eat vegetarian/vegan, or special order meat with groups from their synagogues (shipped frozen, so it was a few-times-a-year treat).

      1. Manders*

        This is a really important point. Access to things like public transit and a nearby big city can make a HUGE difference in someone’s quality of life. Adjusting to having to drive everywhere, especially in a small town, is going to be a big deal for a New Yorker of any religion.

        1. Honeybee*

          In my opinion, driving around a small town was actually an easier adjustment than driving around the suburban area of a large city with mediocre public transit. Small towns are – well, small, and the traffic is much better. When I lived in State College, PA, I could leave work at 5 on the dot at the same time as everyone else and still get home by 5:15 (I lived a 5-10 minute drive from work…because the furthest distance in State College was probably about 30 minutes). There was also a bus I could take that stopped in front of my apartment and dropped off in front of my office.

          Driving around the suburbs of Seattle? I live 20 minutes from work and don’t have to take the highway, but if I leave at 5, I’m not getting home until 5:45. And driving into the city, I have to contend with parking. I never had problems finding parking in State College, lol.

      2. Honeybee*

        OH MAN, definitely the first paragraph. I spent 7 years living in New York and walking and taking public transit everywhere. I live in a suburban area that has terrible public transit, and I’m still dissatisfied with the fact that I have to drive everywhere and can’t easily walk to coffee shops or restaurants based on where I live. Against my better judgment I moved into this suburban area with a poor walk score because I liked the condo. My husband and I currently share a car and I feel trapped; I don’t have the personal freedom of movement without us constantly having to coordinate schedules. I can’t just decide to go shopping or to a workout class or the library spontaneously after work, because I get picked up at a specified time.

        And even if I did have full access to my car again, traffic patterns make things difficult. If I leave work between 4:45 and 6:00 pm, my commute home doubles, and swinging by the grocery store or something takes much longer. Not to mention that maintaining a personal vehicle, with the insurance, the gas and the maintenance, is expensive. When my friends visit me here, I have to be around to entertain and drive them to places because unless they rent a car, they can’t really explore by themselves. When I lived in New York and friends visited, they often entertained themselves. Ugh, why did we as a society ever move away from dense urban areas?!

        If I could move here all over again, I think I would move into the city or at least into one of the semi-urban downtown areas in the suburban towns around Seattle.

    17. Whats In A Name*

      I am a Yankee currently living in the south, I live in the same 4-state pocket of the old south that Alabama is in but not Alabama itself. Our congregation was very welcoming and is about 350 families.

      Overall, while there are some big cultural differences from where I grew up, the entire community has been welcoming. We’ve made some good friends and have settled in nicely over the past 5 years. None of our close friends are Jewish and we’ve never felt tension from that. I am pretty liberal in the bleeding heart sense but I lean conservative on some other issues. I just don’t talk politics.

      Now, depending on what part of NY he lives in some things could be very different. I grew up where there was a Jewish neighborhood and a kosher deli on every corner. Now I live somewhere that looked at me like I had 14 heads when I asked what part of town the Jewish neighborhood was and I have to drive 2 hours to get a good brisket.

      1. Whats In A Name*

        Also 2nd what Pearl said – if this wasn’t clear I definitely think he needs to look into the area, see what is around, if attending services is important look at the size of the congregation and what is available locally.

    18. Jewish anon*

      One thing he may want to prepare for is a change in how people perceive him racially. I moved from NY to VA for college and all of a sudden, I wasn’t always treated as white. Now, I have the dark curly hair and a pretty stereotypical nose, but I always thought I was pretty obviously white, even if I did look very Jewish. That only works if your area is familiar with Jews and since where I was, they aren’t, people tried to figure out why I didn’t look white. I got asked if I was: mixed (black and white), mixed (white and Chinese), Latina, and black.

      I started experiencing the whole “Where are you from? Where are your parents from? What are you?” variety of micro-aggressions, plus a lot of ignorant questions. And this was in a liberal area as well. When people descended upon campus to convert people, I got a lot of “Jesus was Jewish, so come to Jesus.” And I met a Virginian in high school who told me how sad she was that I was going to hell, because I seem so nice.

      So, it really depends on his area and he might not be able to gage everything in one visit.

    19. H.C.*

      Can’t say much about the Jewish aspect of it, but RE: politics – is your friend particularly verbose his stance? If so, he may want to keep a lower profile about that in work settings to avoid starting conflicts especially at the start of his new job (i.e. excusing himself from political talk if need be.) Of course, he should raise concerns upon hearing discussions that boils over into bigotry, hate speech, perceived threats, etc. But otherwise, save the politics chat with like minded friends, there or back in NY.

    20. Fortitude Jones*

      I currently live this life, and I’m trying like crazy to get out of the Midwest (I hate this place so much) and back to the east coast. If my job didn’t pay so well, and if the company didn’t offer the amazing advancement and professional development opportunities it does, I would up and leave now. But I’m just grinning and bearing it while slowly dying inside when having to deal with the über conservatives that surround me.

    21. Honeybee*

      Maybe. It would entirely depend. I grew up in a red state – Georgia – that on face is very different politically from what I believe. But I grew up on the outskirts of Atlanta, which is a pretty liberal and progressive city. Relocating to Birmingham or Montgomery, even, would be quite different than relocating to a small rural Alabama town. I would not move to rural Alabama, not because of the political situation but because of pretty much everything else. I’ve been to rural Alabama multiple times and there’s nothing there that appeals to me.

      There are a lot of unfavorable and untrue stereotypes about Southerners, but they do tend to be more conservative on average than New Yorkers, and their brand of conservatism – especially in rural areas – is different than, say, upper-middle-class New Yorkers from the Upper East Side.

      Yes, I would imagine being Jewish in the South is VERY different from being Jewish in NY. NY has a proportionately large Jewish population and a pretty thriving Jewish life. Jewish life in the South – especially outside of big Southern cities – can be very small, possibly nonexistent depending on where you live. A rural town in Alabama might not have a synagogue at all, and depending on how observant he is it may be difficult to observe some Jewish religious tenets. But I wouldn’t expect a chilly reception on the basis of Jewish identity, necessarily. I would instead expect most people to simply Not Get It but maybe leave you alone about it, and a handful of really obnoxious people repeatedly inviting you to their church and/or trying to convert you to some denomination of Christianity.

      Is there any way he can spend a couple weeks in the rural town before he decides to make the move? I mean, I guess he could always move away if he hated it. I spent a year as a researcher at a university in a place that was on the line between suburban and rural (the town itself was suburban, but if you drove 20-30 minutes in any direction you were in a pretty rural area, and the nearest large city was 3 hours away), just to see if I would like it and could possibly do it long-term – the career I was considering has many locations in small rural-ish areas. I decided I couldn’t, but I didn’t hate it. In fact, I found it to be kind of charming, and could’ve gladly spent 2-3 years there. It was the job I came to dislike, not the town.

    22. It Might Be Me*

      As a Flushingite that transplanted to Alabama 30 years ago I can attest that there will be challenges. There is culture here. It may not be the MOMA, but there are museums. It’s easier for me to visit the art museums in Birmingam or Huntsville. A drive to the Frist in Nashville may be farther geographically, but it’s shorter time wise than going into Manhatten. There are also great local arts scenes. I know there are several librarians here. I’ve been impressed at the edgy events going on at libraries.

      Religiously I’m in a minority and go to the next county for services. My rural county has two Hindu temples so it’s not as monolithic as people assume. I’m active in the Pride Coalition in my county. I’ve never had any problems at work or socially. I’ve had epithets thrown at me on South Street in Philly, but never here.

      The restaurant diversity isn’t as big here. I have an okay place to get bagels. There are fantastic Indian and Thai places. Shopping is not hard. Lots of organic farms. Good cheese.

      Politically I’d classify most of the people as libertarian rather than red-red-right. Gay marriage? That’s a civil action and not much to do with them. Taxes need to be justified. They care a lot about the quality of roads because it impacts their livelihood.

      It’s like many places. In Philly I couldn’t tell you my neighbor’s name after three years. I had bronchitis this past winter. The local sandwich shop where I eat twice a week called to see if I was okay and if I needed anything. They know I am single. I had a free home delivery of soup and sandwich. The point is sitting outside a community will keep you outside.

  27. A. Nonymous*

    How do you guys think one should handle people coming to you about a coworker’s performance? I used to be in charge of a very non-glamorous but essential technician job. I had a large shop to myself, it was very quiet and I did well in the position. I was promoted to another position and thus moved into my main tech shop and another person, we’ll call him Sam, took the position I used to have.

    Since then I figured things were going fine, but in the past two months I’ve had a few different people from different departments come and talk to me about how poorly my old job is being done. Some of them didn’t even know that I’d left that position and were concerned about me! I explained I didn’t have that responsibility anymore and apologized.

    2 of these people asked me who his manager (also my manager) was. I gave them his name, but now I feel like I did the wrong thing? Should I warn my co-worker? Should I talk to my manager? I really like Sam, he’s a nice person, but maybe that’s clouding my judgement.

    I’m usually on the side of the fence where it’s not effecting me don’t do anything, but this is a patient care environment and it could effect others. For what it’s worth, Sam isn’t a very hard worker. He spends a great deal of time in the main shop on his phone or following other techs around during their jobs instead of picking up obvious work that could be done and isn’t assigned to anyone.

    1. Lacking Reference*

      I think you were right to pass along his manager’s name. It’s not like you were passing along gossip, or even passing along the feedback directly-you’re just sharing information that would allow others that work directly with him to provide necessary feedback to his manager, who in turn could work with him to make improvements.

      I don’t think you have any obligation to give him a heads up. Even though you like the guy, it doesn’t sound like you have a particularly close relationship or work closely with him to bring up the performance concerns. Let it be between the people who have the concerns and his manager.

      1. ZVA*

        Yes, exactly this. Your colleagues should be giving feedback to Sam’s manager, and Sam’s manager should be dealing with that feedback as he sees fit. You’ve facilitated this—no need to get any more involved!

  28. short term job*

    I had a short 3 month job that didn’t work out. My former job said that they would say I was still employed there that whole time and would update their HR records to reflect that (they’re small). I’ll probably go back there to help them out a couple hours a week for some extra cash but with both sides knowing it’s temporary. Is it totally unethical for me to say I was employed there for those 3 months, even if their story matches?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Sorry I am confused. Did you work there three months or not? If you did and they say you did, then that would be true? Or do you mean, adding the additional 3 months when you technically didn’t work there? But now you are going back to help out? So you would not have the gap?

      1. short term job*

        Sorry, I wrote this while still in bed! Clearly need more caffeine. I had a job for 2 years. I left it for a new job that did not work out. I’m going back to the previous job (that I was at for 2 years) – but just on a very part-time basis. They said they would tell reference checkers I was there the whole time. So I would essentially be pretending the 3 month job didn’t happen.

        1. Artemesia*

          I would not do this — lies get out. I might ask if they could list you in some consulting role like lawyers can be ‘of counsel’ so you worked there and then continued in a consulting capacity or something like that.

        2. CoffeeLover*

          I think it’s totally fine. 3 months is a short enough time in a 2 year period that its not worth mentioning. Say you took 3 months off for a short term leave for medical reasons for example and came back on a part time basis… you wouldnt list the absence on your resume. Same thing applies here.

          1. CoffeeLover*

            I also wanted to add that 3 months isn’t a big gap in general. You could also just mention that you took 3months off without mentioning the other role.

            1. short term job*

              What kind of reason could I have for taking 3 months off though, that doesn’t seem sketchy?

              1. CoffeeLover*

                I’ve legitimately taken 3 month vacations to travel, visit family, relax, etc. While I realize I’m lucky to be able to take such an extended amount of time off, it’s also not uncommon for people to do that. I don’t think 3 months is long enough that the interviewer would even ask you for a reason – if they do you could be vague and say it was for personal/family reasons.

                But, like I said in the first post, I don’t think this is something worth pointing out on your resume. It’s not even about lying, but more about worthiness of stating on your resume. A small break of 3 months doesn’t matter, which is why your employer is willing to extend your work history through that time. If you really feel obligated, you could mention in an interview that you worked full-time for 2 years and then took 3months off before switching to a part-time schedule when discussing the position.

              2. N.J.*

                Maybe something like–I left the job for a few months to explore other opportunities. Ultimately nothing panned out and I returned to job X, where I have continued to develop my skills in X, Y, Z.

    2. BRR*

      I would not lie about it. Three months is a long enough time that it’s not erasable. I know it feels like a great opportunity to have the three-month job be erased but it could so easily come back to bite you.

      1. short term job*

        I’m not saying this to be antagonistic but I’m genuinely naive about this – ha. How could it come back to bite me? I could see if someone at a potential employer knew someone at that 3 month employer and I came up… is that the sort of thing you mean?

        1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

          Some companies do really thorough background checks. This probably is more prevalent in certain industries or with certain types of roles.

          Story time: I had been offered a role (an administrative assistant role, so not one of extraordinary power, etc.). I was asked to fill out a very detailed past work experience/prior compensation form for the background check process. My offer was almost rescinded because some “income” showed up from a company that I had not listed as past experience. My friend is a casting director for background actors and on two occasions I helped him out by filling in as a background actor on weekend shoots when someone dropped out at the last minute. These are paid gigs, so I filled out a W-4 and received checks for the work. Luckily the company really liked me and gave me the opportunity to explain the situation (and my explanation made sense).

          I think you can definitely leave the 3 month job off of your resume and you can probably list remaining at the past job the whole time on your resume, but be careful if there’s any paperwork or a background check involved. It could come up.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I asked a former supervisor to be a professional reference for me and (unsolicited by me) she offered to tell a little white lie about the dates I worked for her. I never took her up on it, but I appreciated the thought. Also, in my situation, there were ways that the deception could have been found out since the former supervisor no longer worked at that employer either and I didn’t want to risk that happening.

      In your situation it probably wouldn’t be a big deal for a your former employer to tell a little fib about the dates you worked there.

    4. Snazzy Hat*

      I can see this rearing its head in several ways. I’m including your decision to definitely return to OldJob.

      1) If you apply to a place with a rigorous background check including all the places you worked and don’t want to waste application space by listing the same job info twice, I would list the date range as, for example, January 2014 to Present and add “three month hiatus” in the text box for description of job duties.
      2) Your résumé could list the job “January 2014 – June 2016, October 2016 – Present”. Don’t bother listing the 3-month job unless you learned some very valuable skills or programs during that time.
      3) Whether you say you worked two jobs at once, or left one for another and later went back to the first, is not going to raise eyebrows high enough to make a difference. The worst I can anticipate is they ask you why you left the replacement job; it’s highly unlikely they’ll ask why you went back to your previous employer, especially if it’s a field which normally has part-time or seasonal employees.

  29. Lacking Reference*

    Does anyone have advice on who to use as a reference when moving on from an entry-level(ish) role?

    I graduated in 2010, worked a limited-term-contract-type job for 2 years (AmeriCorps if anyone is curious!) And now I have been at my current job for 4 years. I’ve taken on increasing responsibility with each year (essentially being promoted with a new title), but the way the company is structured, I’ve had the same direct supervisor the whole time.

    I’m looking to move on, but I’m nervous about who to use as references. I don’t think I can use anyone from my current job, and while I know my previous supervisor would give me a great reference–I feel like its a little out of date because I have learned a ton and really changed over the past four years at this new job (gaining progressively more responsibility and new skills). I also worry about only having the one reference. I worked for a student org all through college but the faculty advisor who was my supervisor sadly passed away. Other than that, my only work-experience are random retail jobs.

    How do other people find contacts that can give a positive and accurate reference when they are looking to move on from the first job that really developed them into the employee they are today?

    1. Joanna*

      Is there anyone who worked with you for a while at your current job but has now moved elsewhere who would give you a reference?

      Don’t discount the previous supervisor as a reference. While they may not be able to say much about your current knowledge, what they have to say about your work ethic and ability to get on with others is still valuable.

    2. CoffeeLover*

      It’s tough when you feel you can’t use your current employer as a reference. I was very lucky at my last position because it was project based and I had different project managers throughout my time there. People who didn’t really care whether I stayed or left, but that could give great references because they managed my work. I was also lucky at a previous job because my manager was a reasonable human being that I developed a solid relationship with. She supported my choice to leave and gave me a good reference. I don’t understand why employers act the way they do – like wanting to leave your job is the worst thing in the world. No one stays in a job forever, so why are you sabotaging people that are trying to develop their career >.</rant.

      Anyway, if you feel you can't approach your manager for a reference, are there other people who you have worked with that can speak to your character? Ie., discrete coworkers, clients, other managers in your org you have worked with that you can trust? I think references are more about your character than your accomplishments. The interviewer knows your accomplishments through your resume, but they learn about what you're really like to work with through your references. If the old references can speak to your good character, I think that still says a lot even if they can't speak to your most recent accomplishments.

  30. Kaori*

    I’m very glad to have found this site when I did, because after having a tough conversation with my boss about how the job I was hired to do is completely different than what I’m now asked to do, I have pretty suddenly been let go and I’m feeling stressed about the whole thing. But there’s amazing advice here and I’m going to use it to throw myself into my search!

    Please feel better, Alison!

    1. Whats In A Name*

      I am sorry that happened to you but I am glad you had the discussion with your boss. That shows some good hardiness and will serve you well in your next job! Best of luck on your search.

      1. Kaori*

        Thanks much for your kind words! The job had a very different role in the summer (which is what I was hired for), but the changes that would happen in fall weren’t made very clear to me, and it just wasn’t a good fit with what they wanted. I’m a little bummed, but not too down. I’ll carry on :)

  31. Rachel Greene*

    Ive been in my role for just over a year. I got stellar reviews and feedback from other teams I work with. I got a 3% merit raise.

    I took on a major stretch project earlier this year and needless to say, some changes are happening at my company and it is now where I will be spending all of my efforts. Im okay with that because I like the work, but it truly is a stretch for me.

    For many reasons, I had a conversation with Bob, my manager, about increasing my compensation. I phrased it as asking what i specifically need to do to get $x. Bob seemed open to the idea. Ive been told by him and upper leadership that im highly valuable and they dont want to lose me.

    Since then, Bob has been acting cold and more harsh to me. This is really out of character for him, as our relationship is usually very warm and friendly.

    My current pay is decent but i still feel like im underpaid, especially considering the work i do, the excellent reviews, and that others on my team are making significantly more while having the same skills set and amount of experience.

    1. Artemesia*

      When a manager can’t deliver what you need or want, it makes them feel bad. They can then punish themselves by feeling bad or punish you. Sounds like this guy can’t help you so he has to hurt you to feel better himself.

      I think this is your queue to be rethinking moving on. You don’t need to rush but once you make that decision and start lining the ducks up, you will be surprised at how empowering that feeling is. When you feel underpaid and get rebuffed, it is time to look around. You may not be able to do better but it is particularly grating when peers are paid more for the same work and experience.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Some bad managers have the view that their employees owe them gratitude for having a job and wage. Asking for more money makes you seem ungrateful in their eyes. That could be going on here, maybe?

      1. TootsNYC*

        And I sort of hate to say it, but sometimes a gender bias will amplify that sort of reaction–that you shouldn’t advocate for yourself.

    3. BRR*

      I think other comments could be applicable. On top of Trout ‘Waver’s comment of gratitude he might have also taken it personally.

      1. Rachel Greene*

        These are all really good perspectives, and things I hadnt thought about, so thank you. The gratitude thing could definitely be coming into play here.

        I forgot to mention in the original post that I received the merit raise almost months ago, and I just recently asked about increased compensation within the past few weeks, so it wasnt as though i got the raise and turned back around and asked for more money.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      Oh man, I have this same fear this will happen to me when I bring up wanting to either be promoted or to get a big enough raise to put me into a higher quintile in my current job grade at my next check-in (I’m having this conversation early because salary increases go into effect in March). I’m outperforming a lot of my peers and have attained three professional designations in my industry in the nine months I’ve been in my new division.

      But some people get weird when the topic of money comes up, and my supervisor is a new supervisor (she was promoted to the role in January), so she may not react well or our mutual manager may not because he’s the type who won’t even advocate for himself.

  32. CoffeeLover*

    I’m working in Africa now! I was looking for a paid internship position in Africa with little success and have posted about my search on here before. After aggressively looking, I could only apply to ONE posting that fit my criteria (ie, relevance to my career goals, sustainability of project, legitimacy of organization, etc.) and that I was even remotely qualified for (I’m looking at you UN with your outrageous requirements for UNPAID positions). To my surprise they called me in for an interview. It was a brutal week waiting for their response (literally all my hopes and dreams rested on this one application), and I didn’t get it! But, a couple of weeks later they called me in for another position, I got the offer that same day, gave my two weeks notice, and here I am living and working in Africa! Loving every minute of it. I guess the moral of the story is that life works out sometimes.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Congrats! And can I say that I think working in Africa is way cool! Enjoy the experience and please post updates here often.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        I. Love. It. Here! The experience has been great so far (though I’m only 2 weeks in to be fair). I feel like I’ve already learned so much about the people, the culture, and the struggles. I will try to post updates… and to also limit myself to how many updates I do post haha.

        1. AFRC*

          Sorry, I meant in many parts of Africa they grow great coffee beans :) Apologies for the “Africa is a country”-esque generalizing!

          1. CoffeeLover*

            Actually, that’s the one downside to the country I’m in! It’s a country of cocoa and most places only serve instant coffee :'(. Plus, people in general do not drink coffee (I do not know how they function as a society haha). I have located a few “real” coffee shops and I recently acquired a coffee machine so I won’t go into withdrawals :P.

  33. fond_of_jam*

    Oh boy, an Open Thread I can participate in!

    I have a workplace etiquette question. I teach early childhood special education in a public school. I manage a team of three assistant teachers, one of whom (Lucinda) is leaving in the middle of next week.
    Lucinda is, to put it bluntly, absolutely the worst. I’ve had many conversations with her about her tone and affect in the classroom, and yet I’m still dealing with eye rolls and sighs. She’s impatient with the children and rude to her co-workers. She was about two steps away from being fired anyway, but somehow she found a position elsewhere and is moving on. Managing her has really sucked, and the whole team will be happier when she’s gone (even though it leaves us very short-handed).
    My question is, do I have to get her a card or something? It seems like the normal human thing to do; on the other hand, I can’t think of anything to say that won’t sound like a hollow lie. Which it will be, because all I want to write is “Don’t let the door hit you…”

    Thoughts? I won’t be around much to read replies (teaching preschoolers with special needs doesn’t leave much time for internetting), but I’d appreciate any feedback!

    1. Scorpio*

      Get one of those cards thats “from all of us” and have everyone sign it, or even have some of the kids sign it if possible (I realize you said early childhood special ed). That way you’ve done the nice human thing but you don’t have to fill a whole card by yourself. You can just write something like “Best of luck in your new venture!”.

      1. KR*

        I agree with having the kids sign it – then you don’t have to go around and get a bunch of signatures from other staff who may not like her. You could help her students sign it if they’re able and maybe get signatures from other kids who are in the same classrooms she aids in. There was an aid specifically assigned to certain special education students in my school growing up but they were also wonderful company to students that didn’t have a lot of friends (me) and were left out of a lot of group activities or partner-type activities because they were unpopular. They offered kindness and support that I still remember today.

    2. Dawn*

      Be the better person- if you don’t want to give her a card at least make her transition out as easy as possible and be as professional and polite as you can while she’s still there. I know you wanna be like “BEYONCE HAS A SONG ABOUT THIS – I’M TAKING CREATIVE LIBERTIES WITH IT – GIRL, BYE!!!!!!” but you can’t do that and remain professional (and not lose the respect of your remaining employees, even if they’re thinking it too).

    3. TC*

      I think if previous staff members got cards, then she probably should too. I’ve received my fair share of farewell cards and I’ve never been offended by an “All the best!” from someone I didn’t know/didn’t get along with famously. Not getting one would give her grounds to kick up a stink and that might travel through the grapevine.

    5. just another librarian*

      I don’t think you need to get a card, but I think you should try to say something nice about her on her last day. Even something like “Good look with your new job! Things sure will be different around here without you!”

    7. Fiona the Lurker*

      I just hope she stays gone, though; I gave enthusiastically towards a leaving present for a manager I loathed, because I was so grateful to see the back of him, and ONE MONTH LATER he was back, having interviewed and been hired for a much more senior post in the department. (On reflection, can we all say ‘put-up job’?) I was invalided out of there with stress a short time later …

    8. Xarcady*

      Get the card. You can always write, “Congratulations on the new job! We’re so happy for you!” without explaining that the reason everyone is so happy is that she is leaving.

      And having the kids sign a card/draw pictures/make handprints or something for her is a great idea.

      Be the bigger person here. Let her leave on a high note. Then forget all about her and work on hiring someone who will mesh with the rest of the team.

    9. Trout 'Waver*

      Take the high road and get a card. Don’t give her any more ammo to badmouth you at her new job.

  34. Allypopx*

    Implementing layoffs today and I’m feeling lousy about it – don’t really need advice just looking to commiserate.

    1. Dawn*

      <3 You will get through the layoff! <3

      It's tough, I went through sudden and unexpected layoffs a few years ago at a job I really loved and wanted to stay in for a very long time and it just FLOORED me. Gutted. It took a long time to bounce back BUT I bounced back, I'm in a better situation now and have a much better handle on where I want my career to go, and hey, I survived!

      1. Allypopx*

        Thank you! That’s really encouraging to hear. Of course my biggest worry is that we’re leaving people high and dry (and right before the holidays, ugh, I swear there aren’t other options). We offer references and put notes in their files that they’re eligible for rehire in the future and offer what severance we can but it still eats at that little non-business-minded humanitarian nugget in my heart so badly. I know intellectually though that people land on their feet – I’m so happy you did!

        1. SeekingBetter*

          It sounds like you really have a conscience, and I’m glad you’re doing what you can to help the people who are going to be laid off. I’m sure it’s never a fun thing to do. I’m glad my previous company can provide a positive reference for me if they’re called.

    2. NoCalHR*

      Offering Jedi hugs …

      Layoffs are tough on everyone involved. My best advice is to be respectful, professional, and as warm as is natural for you. Don’t force empathy, and don’t hide out in unusual reserve/coldness. And take care of yourself as well!

      1. Allypopx*

        I love jedi hugs, thank you! That’s really great advice. My co-manager is a lot more of the warm touchy feely type than I am and I don’t tend to like to drag these things out with tons of apologies and explanations – I’m not cold, just sympathetic and concise. I personally like to answer questions, wish people well, and then give them some space to process. But people can totally read when you aren’t being natural so I need to remember to follow my own style and not hers.

        (And yes I’m buying myself a nice sushi bowl for lunch and leaving an hour early if I can, for sure.)

        1. Dawn*

          Yay self-care!

          I would say that the absolute best thing you can do in implementing the layoffs is be sympathetic but understand the position they’re in. The big boss that actually did the “OK we’re laying you off” meeting was all “Oh god I’m so sorry just let me know if there’s *anything* I can do for you!” and I was like “Uh… how about not lay me off? Go to bat for me and keep me?” It was really insensitive at the time.

          Stick to the facts of the transition, understand that they’re gonna be mad or sad or whatever about it, and also realize that survivor’s guilt is a thing and it’s probably going to hit you hard in the coming weeks- be prepared for that as well.

        2. Annie Moose*

          Hey, for what it’s worth, I just was laid off a couple months ago, and I absolutely did not get upset with the person who told me. Actually, I wanted to tell her that I knew it had to be hard for her and that I appreciated her doing it (my direct manager wasn’t able to meet with me, so his manager volunteered to tell me so I wouldn’t have to wait until he got back)! I ended up feeling too upset to say it, but I genuinely did not blame her. And I’m also glad that she, like you, didn’t make it this big emotional production… just told me the facts, was kind about it, and let me have the room to myself after telling me so I could process by myself. Honestly, if she’d stayed in the room longer or tried to engage me in conversation more, I probably would’ve burst into tears in front of her, and that would’ve been even worse for both of us!

          1. Whats In A Name*

            Yes – keep your concise delivery. I was laid off once. The person who delivered the message offered some apologies and kept asking how I felt and if I was ok. I was so blind-sided that the meeting ended with me saying something like
            “Well, if I tell you I’m not ok are you going to give me my job back?”
            “No?”
            “Well, then can we stop doing this and can I go pack up my things?”
            Exit stage left.

            1. Allypopx*

              Thank you all for your reassurance. This is my first real management role and my second round of layoffs ever, and working with such a wide variety of personality types it’s somethings hard to know if I’m getting it right.

    4. TootsNYC*

      It sucks to be the one doing the layoffs. It’s a different kind of “sucks,” but it does suck.

      I had a friend call me for advice once; she had to escort some of her people to the conference rooms to get laid off, and the night before, she called to ask what to do. “I can’t even warn them!”

      I told her, “when you come to them and say, “the VP would like to speak with you in the conference room; I’ll take you there,” that’s their warning.

      And my other advice was: * be regretful; * be matter-of-fact; * don’t dwell on why the company decided, or otherwise justify the decision; *acknowledge that it stinks for them; say “I’m sorry”; *thank them for the work they did; * do everything you can tom are things logistically easy for them.

      I’ve worked at a place that did NOT make people walk out right away, but let them wind down at their desks, and it was SO much better for everyone (remaining employees, laid-off employees, supervisors). I didn’t hear of any downside, and it soothed people a lot to see their laid-off colleagues be treated like valued and admired professionals instead of potential law-breakers.

      Good luck. And be kind to yourself this weekend.

    5. Bob Barker*

      Yeah, it sucks. My first time being laid off, it was very clear from timing that (a) it was a result of the company having been bought out and (b) the bigwig who laid me off was doing the same to like 100 people that day, all in-person meetings, ALL DAY LONG.

      I ended up telling her how sorry I was she was having to go through that. Honor on her for doing it that way (I know a lot of people cried; it was a die-in-harness type of company up till then), but man, it just sounded emotionally exhausting. Me, I was out of a job, but I was also free (and paid) to move on, which I did, into another profession that lays people off much less frequently. That poor woman had to try to keep steering the ship despite its obvious trajectory toward the shoals. (The company no longer exists, having been basically cannibalized for parts.)

    6. Ife*

      Oh man, I was going to comment about my department’s massive layoff earlier this week today, but as one of the “lucky” ones who survived I was working on my coworker’s projects all day and didn’t have time! Next week, next week…
      I am sorry you are going through this on the manager side. That’s not a role I would want to have to play.

  35. H&S B**ch*

    So today I explained to our shop workers the emergency safety plan as requested by their boss. I of course have no problem explaining this because frankly I have a more thorough understanding and because I like the guys.

    Here’s where it got rough:

    Before I even start talking their boss tells me I need to speak up and laughs while looking around the room. Now I’m sure this is connected but while I’m speaking HIS boss interrupts to ask questions (who is also half way my boss) and of course the shop workers all start to murmur and just generally be rude (no laughing though) I’ve done a number of presentations to many different demographics and this is the worst behaviour I’ve ever seen. (even from three year olds) I think it stems from their boss and his disrespect for me. How can I confront him on a day to day basis but specifically this incident while making him hear me and demanding better respect in the future?

    Also, I’m a crier (over practically everything including confrontation which is very frustrating) so that will be a challenge. And finally, is it just me or is it every young female in a male dominated role?

    1. misspiggy*

      I wouldn’t necessarily confront him – he may be wanting to needle you into a reaction, and may be even worse when he gets confirmation that you’re annoyed with him.

      Instead I’d suggest channelling the scariest teacher you ever had whenever you’re interacting with him, with a group, or with anyone who gives you trouble. You know the teacher that hardly ever had to raise their voice, but somehow managed to be terrifying enough that you’d all listen? How did they create that feeling that if anyone stepped out of line, the consequences would be unthinkable? Or if you can’t think of a teacher, think about Dame Maggie Smith. Go over exactly what that person does with their face, body and voice. Practise emulating that, in all sorts of interactions inside and outside work.

      Remember that as long as you’re polite, there’s no need to be nice or friendly to people unless they are the same with you. Learning to be physically assertive takes time, but it’s a set of skills well worth learning.

      1. Artemesia*

        I agree. this yutz wants a confrontation. Steely cool demeanor — letting him snark and then asking ‘is there anything else?’ and then moving back to the presentation may be the best you can do. And work on the crying thing. You MUST master yourself and your emotions when you work in this sort of situation. If you have to think of some visual image that helps do this or whatever, figure it out. Cry and you can’t gain respect in this environment.

        1. H&S B**ch*

          I’ve never thought of that as a way to prevent the crying! Do you have any more detailed recommendations of how to do this? I mean, today it was because I was so angry and about 20% embarrassed. So do you think about something that makes you happy, something incredibly neutral like white noise, terrifying like realizing on December 31 that you haven’t done your year end reports? Thanks again.

          1. Karanda Baywood*

            What makes you feel powerful or even just calm? Thinking of yourself as a pillar of steel, or the smartest adult in the room, or pretend you’re Oprah, or…?

          2. LCL*

            Thinking about something happy doesn’t work for me, the switch between emotions is too great and I don’t want to associate happy things with the jerks. I prefer to think of them (whoever them is, I’m sure they aren’t all jerks) as people who will someday be dead and the worms will eat them. So with contempt. But be careful. A little bit of contempt can help you deal with people like this, it allows you to distance yourself. Contempt is very corrosive and should be used sparingly.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        YES. Be Professor McGonagall!!

        If you can’t do that, some phrasing said in a firm yet polite tone:

        “Hey, guys, I’d appreciate it if you would hold your questions until I’m finished. Thanks.”

        *to questiony interrupter* “Fergus, I’ll get to that when I’ve gone over the information. Just hang tight.”

      3. TootsNYC*

        I like to think of “channeling my inner day-care worker.”

        Also, I had a boss (female) tell me, when I was getting teary when I was bringing her a complaint against someone: “don’t cry. get mad if you need to, but don’t cry.”

        i find that trying to suppress some strong emotion is why I get tears. I’m working on letting that emotion be itself, and not trying to stop it–but then trying to control how I express it. Like, get an angry tone and speak bitingly, but not loudly and not meanly.

        then I’m focusing on steering anger or frustration, and I don’t have tears that come from trying to suppress the emotion.

        Also–one other thought. When people start to talk while you’re talking, it’s tempting to try to talk louder or faster.

        Do the opposite. Slow down, and speak more slowly.

    2. Construction Safety*

      As with other hecklers / smart asses, stop talking, slightly raise your eyebrows and have an expectant look on your face. When they cease, count to about three before beginning. Scan the group & make eye contact with several individuals.

      For folks being rude & talking / whispering while the meeting is going on, tell the group that there’s only one meeting going on & the sooner it’s over the sooner they can resume their activities.

      Lose the crying. There’s no crying in safety.

      1. the gold digger*

        Two techniques I learned from the men in my life:

        1. When my dad was teaching 7th grade, he would walk over and stand next to the kid who was acting up. He didn’t say anything, just stood next to the kid. It usually worked.
        2. When I was just starting my career and being teased by groups of men to whom I was presenting, my brother advised that I turn them against one of their own. Pick one of them and tease him gently and smilingly. That can divert attention from you as they pile onto their coworker.

        1. motherofdragons*

          #1 is great. My husband was a trainer for a long time, and this was his favorite technique when a trainee was goofing off or talking.

        2. Hallway Feline*

          Great advice! I’ll use that when I’m doing my annual safety training for my team (all late-30’s and up males while I’m a mid-20’s female).

    3. H&S B**ch*

      *Blanket statement to confirm that I’m not a water fountain; I did not cry while this was happening (or even come close), or once I got back to my office. Thanks for the support thus far.

    4. evilintraining*

      Before you go into the presentation, say, “Good morning,” or whatever would be appropriate for that time of day. Then say, “(name), can you hear me okay? I want to make sure because of the last time.” Look him in the eye when you say it and don’t back down. If boss’s boss asks a question, answer it and ask him, “Did that answer your question? I want to be sure you have the information you need.” If the room starts to dissolve into side comments or if you see people whispering, speak up. “Joe, do you have a question? No? Just checking because I really need everyone to focus on this so that we can move through this. We all have other things to do, but I need to make sure everyone understands the procedure.” Don’t lose eye contact, and don’t back down! If you need to, call them out again and say, “Would you please hold off your conversation until the end of the presentation? We need to respect everyone’s time here. Thanks,” and continue.

    5. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Work very hard on the one eyebrow lift and look down your nose with a “wow that was juvenile” expression on your face.

  36. AvonLady Barksdale*

    In the ongoing saga of my unemployment… I feel like every time I take a step forward, I get stuck in that employer/employee limbo. At the end of last week, I met with the president of a company. He is creating a position and thinks I would be great for it, and he asked me my salary requirements (very respectfully, I might add). I emailed him back, and… nothing. No response. It’s been a week now, so of course I’m freaking out, even as I tell myself to relax. I spoke to the woman who introduced us, and she said he had been so excited to meet me and I shouldn’t worry too much. Easier said than done, right? Ugh.

    So in the meantime, I’ve taken a seasonal retail job. I’m looking forward to it, and it will get me out of the house, but… man. Maybe I just need my usual commiseration here, because I am remarkably frustrated.

    1. SeekingBetter*

      I know exactly how you feel! I’m unemployed too and every time I think I get good signs from an employer, it always seems like nothing positive like a job offer to come. The only thing I don’t have yet is a seasonal or survival job, and I’ve been looking into that lately so I can have some income coming in. Great to hear that you got a seasonal retail job!

    2. Gala apple*

      Good luck! Great thinking with the seasonal job. I hope it’s something you are able to enjoy for now!

  37. ABL*

    How would you let an assisstant know that accomodation for a work trip wasn’t suitable?

    I just got back from a conference trip, and the hotel we were booked into had a “topless reivew” entertainment thing downstairs. Thankfully I never saw any of it, and it didn’t really bother me because I didnt have to witness it, but what’s the most tactful way to mention this to the assistant so she knows for future conferences?

    1. Joanna*

      Would something as simple as “the hotel was pretty bad. Please make sure you’ve done a quick skim though the reviews or that the hotel is with a very reputable chain before you book” work or do they tend to need you to be more direct?

      1. SophieChotek*

        I think that’s fair. Or maybe act surprised and make the assumption she read reviews and say “Did none of the review mention X, Y, and Z?” and if she then admits she never did the reviews or none did, then just a push to search for reviews more thoroughly, etc.?

      2. ABL*

        Yeah none of the review mention it and its not mentioned online at all (I read the reviews of hotels myself because I’m nosy!) – to be clear I’m not concerned about her methods for finding hotels, but how to tactfully explain why this one probably isn’t suitable for work trips in the future!

        1. Kelly L.*

          That’s so weird that no one even mentioned it in the reviews! Was it a permanent feature of the hotel, or was there like a toplessness convention going on that happened to rent the common areas?

          1. SophieChotek*

            Yes I am surprised no one mentioned it either (!). Even if it was technically not part of the hotel, but a separate establishment, you would think enough people would be surprised…
            That was why I was wondering if the assistant didn’t do adequate research.

            1. Kelly L.*

              Right? I’ve definitely been on both sides of Two Conventions in Hotel that Are an Awkward Match, but if it’s a permanent fixture, that’s…very odd.

        2. SophieChotek*

          Since it’s not about research (or lack thereof), I think you can be pretty straightforward then.

        4. Observer*

          In that case, be straightforward with her. Tell her “It’s a shame that none of the reviews mentioned this, but I was shocked to find this topless review being headlined at the hotel when I got there. I thought you would want to know.”

          1. TootsNYC*

            I wouldn’t say “I was shocked”–that’s too much value judgment.

            Make it informational and recommendations: “there was a topless review. That probably means we shouldn’t have people stay there for work anymore.”

        5. TootsNYC*

          Just tell her the way you’d tell someone the you discovered the exit is closed next to your vendor’s facility.

          “Oh, hey–something you should know. The hotel had a topless performance in the ground floor. We should probably not use them again.” And walk off.

          There’s no need for anybody to be embarrassed here. You have information that she’d benefit from knowing. That’s all.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      I would just be straightforward. Tell the hotel you stayed at had a topless show and that all accommodations needs to be appropriate for business trips. Tbh, this really doesn’t seem like a difficult task–there are so many Holiday Inns, etc out there it almost seems like you’d have to try to find a sketchy hotel.

    3. Susan C.*

      Straightforward is the way to go, I think. Maybe she looked at the overall rating, but not reviews, without stopping to consider that those might be from a different target audience… it happens.

      A veteran member of my team likes to tell the story about colleagues from country A coming to help us out with a customer in country B – their accommodation was booked by HQ in country C, who picked a perfectly acceptable hotel. In literally the worst part of town, which any of us could’ve told them. They now know better. (I realize that told this way, the story doesn’t have much of a punchline, sorry about that :/)

    4. ZVA*

      Since it sounds like this wasn’t a huge deal for you, I would take a light tone with this (but I would be more specific than “the hotel was pretty bad”)… something like “Hey, just a heads up, the hotel you booked us wasn’t work-appropriate (there was a “topless review” downstairs)—can you make sure this doesn’t happen again in future?”

      If I were the assistant, I’d be mortified and do everything I could to ensure accommodations were SFW from now on!

      1. Kai*

        I agree with this. You don’t have to over-explain why the hotel wasn’t appropriate–she’ll understand immediately.

      2. Emilia Bedelia*

        I agree- I think you need to be specific about why this hotel was not acceptable. “It was not acceptable” is not a helpful comment, because the problem could range from bedbugs to scratchy towels to not enough waffles at breakfast; “This hotel had a topless show next door” makes it pretty clear what she should look for in the future. You could say something like “I was really surprised to see this- just wanted to let you know so that you don’t book there in the future!” which gives her the benefit of the doubt that if she knew, she wouldn’t have made reservations there (which is a pretty safe bet, it sounds like)

    5. Bad Candidate*

      I would say “Hey Jane, FYI, you might not want to book anyone else at that hotel. They have a topless show next to the lobby!” I don’t know how your travel booking works, but I worked for a company where I had to book through their contracted travel site, it didn’t have reviews. I booked things based on proximity to where someone was visiting and preferred chains by the company and/or traveler. Something like that wouldn’t be on the travel site I used, and I’d have to call them up and have it removed from options.

      1. Sunflower*

        I like this. Above you said you couldn’t find any reviews about the hotel having this so I don’t think you can give her any guidance on how to avoid this in the future. However, I would have her call the hotel and complain that there was no mention of it.

        1. TootsNYC*

          also, I don’t know that you need to be the one to give her that guidance. Once she knows about the problem, I bet she can figure out ways to avoid it next time.

    6. Artemesia*

      The hotel I was booked in when I flew to interview for my main career job (held for 35 years) had a program in the lobby where a yodeling cowboy was ‘roping them in for Jesus’ — and yes as I walked through the lobby towards the elevator and my room, I got roped and asked to testify. One of life’s weirder experiences. There were maybe 15 people gathered to listen to this guy — but I was the one who got roped just walking by.

      1. Beezus*

        I think if a stranger roped me in public, he’d be more likely to get a story about his encounter with the demon possessed crazy woman (and his subsequent encounter with the police) than a testimony.

      2. Batshua*

        Tangent:

        Suggestions on how to handle clients who want to witness to you and won’t take no for an answer? I am front-facing and managed to be polite, but I can’t seem to deter this particular guy, and I’m sure he won’t be the last one.

        1. Beezus*

          What do you mean “won’t take no for an answer”? How does that conversation go?

          Have you talked to your boss about how you should handle it, and what was the outcome?

          1. Batshua*

            Basically, he did a little lecture on his beliefs, which I managed not to comment on, but eventually he asked me a direct question, to which I responded “I’m not a Christian, sir” — which led to him trying to explain to me that “a Christian is just someone who says yes”. If I’d felt like I could’ve gotten away with it, I would’ve tried for something like “Sir, your appointment is scheduled and thus our business is concluded.” Unfortunately, since there wasn’t a line behind him, I couldn’t use that as an appropriate prompt to make him leave.

            I haven’t asked my boss yet … she works at the other end of the building, but I suppose that is something I might want to mention at some point.

            1. Bob Barker*

              The one I use on door-to-door people is a polite, firm, “Thank you, I already have a religion, and I’m not up for discussing it with you right now.”

              Are there jerks who won’t take that for an answer? Sure. But those are the people who won’t take anything for an answer. Your boss needs to know about the people like that.

            2. Beezus*

              I think you should be fine with a polite but firm, “I don’t discuss religion at work.” followed by either redirecting him to the task at hand (“you said you wanted an afternoon appointment, is 3:30 on the 9th okay?”) or gently concluding the conversation and saying you need to get back to work. Just because you’re client facing doesn’t mean you don’t have anything else you can/should/might do just because no one else is in line. “OK, I think you’re all set! If you’ll excuse me, I need to type up some notes/call another client back/find where all my pens have gotten to/take out the trash/go for my break/run to the restroom, etc., have a great day!”

              It would be great if you could just bluntly shut him down, but that’s usually not ideal when the person is a client, so the best alternative is usually be bright and cheery but deflect personal questions, redirect conversations back to business if there is still business to be done, and firmly but pleasantly conclude conversations when business is done.

    7. Eyes Wide Open*

      Have to agree – just be up front that there was a problem with the accommodation. I have booked lodgings and would be horrified to learn there was a topless review in the hotel.

    8. Ann Furthermore*

      Last year I had to book a last minute trip to the UK. We’d been there a few months prior, and stayed at a very nice hotel in London, and then took the train out to Welwyn Garden City, where the office was located. The hotel was walking distance from the train station, so it was perfect.

      When I went to book the next trip, the rooms at that hotel were astronomically expensive. I mean…London is pricey to begin with, but the same hotel was about $100 more per night. I looked all over and couldn’t find anything cheaper that looked like a decent and safe place to stay. So then I thought well, maybe I could stay outside of London, in one of the towns that’s a stop or 2 away from where the office is. So then I started looking there. Found a Holiday Inn with a reasonable rate, which I thought would work, because those are usually OK. Did a quick check on Expedia, and one review said the hotel was very nice, and that “the ladies of the evening were easily accessible.” At that point I gave up and booked into the original hotel in London. I told the PM I had really tried to find somewhere less expensive, but gave up when I came across that comment, and even told her I’d grab a screen shot if someone complained about how expensive my trip was. She laughed and said it would not be necessary.

    9. Tuckerman*

      Admittedly, I’d find this pretty funny. It sounds like there was no way for the assistant to know this event was happening. Even if she were to call every hotel and ask if they had any topless entertainment planned for that weekend, they could still add an event last minute.
      I’d probably say, “Hey Amy, thanks for booking the hotel for my trip. I think we should avoid using this hotel in the future though, since they actually host some NSFW events!”

      1. CMT*

        Same. I mean, I’m an adult. I can ignore the inappropriate-for-work happenings in the lobby. Just be straightforward and ask her not to use that hotel in the future.

    10. Whats In A Name*

      Was the conference at that hotel or was it a nearby hotel?

      I would just outright tell her, but in a very “Hey, I don’t know if this is advertised on their website but they have a strip club/review in the hotel I stayed at. I just wanted to let you know in case you didn’t realize.” You don’t even have to get into it not being appropriate – the message should be apparent. I once stayed at a hotel with a Hooters and had no idea until I showed up. I mean, I realize Hooters is not a topless club but it’s not always apparent on the web or when you call what the “amenities” are.

    11. Sassytype*

      I once booked my team in a chain hotel (mid tier) when they were doing a tour of the sales region. Although I had booked for late check in, when they got there, they were given “theme” rooms, as that was all that were left. This is where I found out that chains sometimes had themed rooms, and to always confirm standard rooms. (Hollywood room, desert oasis room, Waikiki room, etc.).

  38. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    Well, I’m sitting squarely in limbo ad to whether or not I’ll get an offer. When my manager left, I offered to help out with some of her tasks and applied for her position. I’ve had a phone interview with the person I believe is the mid-level manager, a role play call with someone else and another phone interview with the manager of the dept. (The job is remote which is why there haven’t been any in person interviews). They requested my references (even though I’ve been working with them part time for 4 years)… and now, radio silence. I know I need to be patient, but it is starting to drive me nuts.

    I actually made a point not to tell anyone except my husband and my best friend that I applied, so at least I’m not getting constant pestering from my family about it. /vent

    1. bb-great*

      My sympathies. Waiting is the worst part. But good for you on the secrecy–I’ve learned to do that too!

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        Thanks. I know my mom would be all over it. She knows I’ve taken on the extra responsibilities and she’s already been asking me if I’ve put my hat in the ring, telling me that they should just hire me blah blah blah… I don’t like lying to her, but I did a pretty good job of deflecting. On the one hand, if I get it it, it will be really exciting to reveal. On the other, if I don’t I can save face and not have to have tons of conversations about what went wrong.

  39. Scorpio*

    I have an interview next Friday. We set it up this Tuesday. The manager stated a few times how busy she was and she even needed me to re-send her my materials because she was working from a different location. Should I send an email the day before just saying I’m looking forward to meeting her sort of as a reminder?

  40. Batshua*

    Does anyone have advice on managing a coworking relationship?

    Whoever is assigned with me for the day shares my workload; we switch off on duties halfway through the day. Sometimes I’m on front in the morning (lots of client interaction, minimal paperwork), and sometimes I’m on side in the morning (everything else, usually paperwork, but sometimes phone calls or other duties).

    A couple days ago I had an incident while on front. At 4:00, half an hour before my tour is up, I asked a friend online to tell me a joke because my energy was flagging. The conversation lasted all of five minutes, maybe less, during which time I was still doing work.

    The coworker I’m usually assigned to angrily told me that it was not appreciated that I was “emailing my friends all day long” when there’s so much work to do. There’s almost always work to do, and it’s usually not possible to finish it all in one day. This person is does not have any authority over me, and I was hardly shirking my duties, but I’m concerned about how to manage their perceptions given that they might lodge a complaint that I’m sticking them with “all the paperwork”.

    Advice?

    1. Whats In A Name*

      Unless they escalate it let it go. It was a snarky comment, untrue and quite frankly as your peer none of her business. And how did she know you did it anyways, was she looking over your shoulder?

      1. Batshua*

        Coworker’s been creeping over my shoulder lately, yeah, and offering their opinions about everything. It’s totally unsolicited and I’m finding it awkward, to put it mildly.

        1. Whats In A Name*

          I’d address the pattern of behavior then, and bring up the issues, leaving the emotion out. Its probably going to be weird but I think it has to come from you not a manager.

          I just had to do this Wednesday with a co-worker who basically gets defensive and goes into attack mode if we have a difference in opinion on anything. Different but the same, basically her personality drives me nuts but I had to bring it back to how it is actually affecting our working relationship.

  41. TC*

    Need some advice from the most reasonable comments section there ever way (it’s amazing!).

    I moved to America six months ago, following my husband who had a job offer. Back in Australia, I had only had my first “proper” job for 2 years since graduating, one year as a front-end developer and one year coding emails (which I am finding out was generally a “step back”). The programming languages in demand back where I’m from are different to the ones here, so I am spending some time retraining (my degree makes it much more easier to pick these up), but I don’t have much to show for it yet.

    Now I’m struggling to even get interviews. A customer service position for a programming-related website has come up, which I’m extremely qualified for — I did customer service in a similar capacity when I was at university, however I recognise that it might be considered another “step back”, despite the role being in the field that I trained for.

    Opinions and anecdotes welcome. :)

    1. Scorpio*

      I know someone who wanted to do web design but needed work experience to create a portfolio…she took an admin assistant position at a small marketing place and asked to take on small projects/clients when the team was overloaded. She was there about 2 years and now has a full-time web design position at a different company. So…my point is that it could be a way to build your resume and if the website you’d be working for is well known in that field, it would catch someone’s eye.

      1. TC*

        I figured that the time spent working in such a position for such a company would at least give me the time to build up a better portfolio (I have one and I don’t think it’s terrible, but I would say that!). My husband is concerned about the fact it’s not a role that I’ve studied for and I don’t need to take the first job offered, but I figured a) I haven’t even applied yet and b) this city is much more competitive than where I’m from, especially since I don’t know anyone. A foot in the door is just that.

        1. Same here*

          I would say to definitely apply to anything that seems relevant and in your wheelhouse. You’re right that you don’t have to take the first job you’re offered, but you should apply to “reach” jobs and “safety” jobs (just like college). That way, when you start to get responses, you have an idea of what you’re qualified for in this city/industry.

    2. Joanna*

      Would it be possible to do some remote part-time freelance work for companies in Australia or wherever else those skills are in demand so that you’re keeping your existing skills sharp and filling in the gap on your resume?

      1. TC*

        It might be possible — I’ve done volunteer work and lots of personal projects. But I don’t have the ABN (business tax number) required and I’m not sure if I need to be onshore to apply for that. But I will look that up!

        1. Joanna*

          Maybe have a look at what sites like CloudPeeps that connect freelancers with companies require from freelancers as they’ll have some experience with the legalities?

    3. Brett*

      What languages were you working in previously and which ones are you targeting now? What region of the country are you in?
      Different languages can be in demand in specific sectors and different parts of the country. Sometimes it is just a matter of finding a good sector match for your current skills.

    4. Terra*

      It will depend a lot on the company. Some tech companies the CSR department does a lot more than just customer service but some are pretty strict about not letting you take additional duties. FWIW I’ve had better experience being able to do more than just my job description at smaller companies but your mileage may vary. It’s also worth keeping in mind that if you’re female and take a CSR position you may get pigeon holed even if you have the technical degree.

      If you’re looking for work to help get a foot in the door you might look for Technical Service Rep or Help Desk type jobs since they’re almost guaranteed to use more of your technical skills. If you’re a decent writer you could also look for Technical Writing jobs as they’re usually pretty eager to hire people with programming experience.

    5. Nerfmobile*

      My company makes software for highly technical disciplines (not programming, but many engineers know and love/hate our products). Our support people are often experts in those disciplines – in many cases it’s really necessary to understand what the customer is really trying to accomplish. And they can and do move from those customer support roles to others in the company, including development. (I work with someone now who followed exactly that path into my area of focus.) So it depends on the nature of the company and the kind of customer support needed, but it can be a legitimate entry path.

    6. Anon4Now*

      We live in the USA. My husband is a programmer and he found his current job through a recruiter. Have you contacted any recruiters? Also look up meet up groups in your city (or near by your city). Great place to meet people in your field who might be able to tell you about job openings. Other ideas: temporary staffing agencies, attend local conferences and check job boards at local universities. Good luck!

  42. purple people eater*

    I will begin working from home for my company starting in February (I need to move back to my hometown for family reasons and, fortunately, my employer is letting me keep my job and work remotely). I’ve always worked in an office, with only the occasional day or partial day from home when I had a doctor’s appointment or something being delivered, etc., so working from home full-time will be a big change for me. Does anyone have any advice or suggestions? My company has other remote workers, so I won’t be the only one, so I think that will help, but I want to make sure they don’t regret letting me do this (and that I don’t regret it either!)

    1. Kaori*

      Yes! As someone who worked entirely from home for this job, I can offer my thoughts – these are passed on from my dad, who also works from home.

      For me, the biggest thing was always setting a schedule. It’s much harder to disconnect from work when it’s always present. So every day, I do the same thing – I get online at the same time, take lunch at the same time, and leave at the same time. And if you can, try to find things to do after work that aren’t around the house. Whether it’s going to the grocery store, or just going for a quick walk, disconnect from your office. It’ll make your life way easier and help to separate work from home.

      Also, try not to be connected 24/7. I get work emails on my phone, and it’s always tempting to answer it when it comes in at 8:30 at night. But unless it’s an emergency, I make it wait until the morning now.

      I hope that helps! It’s a big change, but I love working from home!

    2. Kat_Map*

      I work from home as well! I have found that it’s helpful, if you live with others, to lay clear boundaries regarding when you’re working and not, otherwise distractions in the home are harder to tear yourself away from than distractions in the workplace. At home it’s easier to allow my mind to get totally distracted and wander off. If I find my mind starting to wander, I’ll get up from my chair and walk around for a bit. It’s easier to re-focus from a quick stretch than it is from mindless time scrolling Facebook. Other than that, small things that I do include trying to stick to a regular work schedule (taking breaks for snacks and meals around the same time…), having a dedicated work space that I can ‘leave’ at the end of the day is helpful. If you’re normally a very social person, meet up with friends or family after work for coffee nearby, make a routine of it, otherwise you might end up feeling very isolated. Good luck! I am very thankful for the opportunity to work from home as it’s been great for me, so I wish you success :)

    3. The IT Manager*

      I pay for a landline phone by my desk. When I’m not working, I don’t answer that phone. Also it means I can ignore unknown callers on my cell phone instead of having to answer in case it’s work related.

      Separate (somewhat dedicated at least) work space so you can shut the door.

      Don’t fall into the trap of doing housework, napping, whatever instead of work Keep to your hours. I hate getting up as early as I do but there’s not way I want to work later every day.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        On the flip side, I found that I didn’t mind working a little later in the evening (because no commute!), and really liked taking time in the afternoon to do personal stuff.

        But I did always get up and have a normal morning routine (shower, breakfast, getting dressed) before “going to work.”

    4. Maxine of Arc*

      A couple of things that really helped me when I was working from home:

      1. Have a dedicated space that is just for your work. A desk separate from whatever you use for home computing if at all possible.
      2. Get dressed! This was the big one that worked for me- I refused to give myself permission to roll out of bed and go to work in my pj’s. Keeping a morning routine where I showered and put on real clothes helped create a mental division between down time and work time.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Yeah, getting dressed is my advice as well. It doesn’t even have to be anything fancy or dressy, but the act of getting up, showering, and getting ready for the day helps get me into the right frame of mind to get ready to start working.

    5. BRR*

      This is very relatable because I’m working from home two days a week and it took me awhile to adjust. Search through the archives as there have been very good articles on the topic. It is going to really depend on your preferences as different people have different challenges. Here is what I have found to be the most essential:
      -The silence was a big thing for me (the noise in my office is also a big thing for me so I guess I just can never be pleased). I had to figure out what wouldn’t hold my attention, needed little effort to set up, and was good as background noise. Using pandora doesn’t work for me because I like to skip things too much and it takes my attention away from work.
      -Take breaks. It’s super easy to just eat at your desk.
      -Have a good set up. This meant for me buying a monitor and a new desk chair.
      -Reply quickly to emails and IMs is a big one for letting your company not regret it (output being the most important).

      1. catsAreCool*

        I found that listening to jazz (especially just instrumentals) helped me. Lyrics distract me sometimes, and the problem with rock is that I love some and hate some rock songs.

    6. Observer*

      Have a separate space for your work – it can be just a corner but it’s you”office”. If you have children who need care, you get child care. Housework (except perhaps throwing on a load of laundry THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SEPARATED into the machine) is off limits. For starters, keep your schedule very consistent. And, be very responsive to emails, phone calls, etc.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yes, your company may have a stipulation that you must have childcare during working hours in order to work remotely. Mine does and I’m sure many others do as well.

        And Observer is right about the dedicated space thing. That’s your workplace. :) It’s not so important if you only work from home once in a while, but if it’s all the time, you will want to separate the two.

  43. Nellie*

    I recently found out my CEO informed senior management (around 15 people in a 70 person nonprofit) that they were required to attend (though not “work”) the annual fundraising gala. The CEO expected everyone to pay full price – $175 – for their own tickets. Gaskets were blown and apparently the edict was rescinded. That’s not normal, right? None of these people are making six figures and even if they were, being required to pay for a work function seems ridiculously overreachy and presumptive to me.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I would think it would be unfair to be expected to pay. I know at my dad’s organization, they have a similar fund-raising gala where the prices are in a similar range; my dad’s boss actually buys a block of tickets and then they have a raffle so her employees in her group can enter their name if they want to go (for free), but there is no obligation to go. I think sometimes certain people in the organization that are in the fundraising department have to go but then I think it is probably covered or maybe very reduced fees. Doesn’t seem normal to me.

    2. Ashley*

      At one of my old jobs there was a black tie fundraising event that it was highly suggested employees at a certain level went, but wasn’t mandatory. If you were a mandatory employee, you got a free ticket, and everyone else could get a ticket for $25 (regular price to the public was $250)

    3. Murphy*

      No, that’s crazy. I used to work for a nonprofit with a similar event, and it was free for us, and a reduced ticket fee to bring a guest. And our attendance was not required.

    4. Lillian Styx*

      Not normal. If we have a $10/tix event, we are asked to pay “if [we] can” but never at the higher priced events and NEVER are we required to attend unless we are working.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Definitely not normal. I’ve mainly worked in private schools (which tend to do at least one huge fundraiser a year) and the fee is always waived for employees. On top of that, $175 is a ridiculously high amount. It wouldn’t be okay (but would be less egregious) if the price was $15 or $20.

    6. Pearl*

      Not normal. Senior staff at my workplace are expected to attend the fundraising gala and their tickets are free. Usually their spouses’ tickets are too, although they had to pay for spouses this year, which I do think is also unusual and caused a lot of grumbling. (But us office staff were also given free tickets, and we didn’t want to go, so we were able to give them to the spouses anyway.)

    7. Ama*

      Definitely not normal. The senior management at my org “gets” seated at our gala while the rest of us do the event management stuff, but they essentially end up acting as hosts for various tables and are generally doing relationship building with donors or corporate sponsors. It is definitely working the event just as much as junior staff — they’d never be expected to pay for seats. (And I personally much prefer working the registration table to having to make small talk all evening.)

      We have some staff who have a personal connection to our mission and who will sometimes have their families purchase tickets but there is no pressure to do that at all, it’s entirely their own decision.

      It sounds to me like maybe ticket sales are a little down this year? I know there was a year where ours were down and extra staff members were recruited to fill seats so the room didn’t look half empty, but even then they were not required to buy tickets.

    8. Bex*

      That’s NOT normal. In my 15 yrs of experience, if people are required to go then the tickets are comped. Heck, sometimes our senior leaders are asked to attend galas for partner organizations and those tickets are either comped by the partner or my company pays for it. Mandatory events should never be paid out of pocket

      1. Nellie*

        Thanks, all, for the solidarity. I similarly thought this was ridiculous, and although it apparently the requirement was rescinded, there are staff who chose to go voluntarily who are being asked to play certain “host”/”working the room” who are feeling a little stiffed that they are basically to do work that evening. The CEO continues to think this is completely reasonable and even pearl-clutches when others imply it is not, and that is why I will soon be leaving for another job.

    9. Ada Lovelace*

      No that is not normal. Our gala is next week and tickets start at $450. This is not mandatory for us but our CEO just announced discounted tickets for staff who wish to go. Senior staff will be going but as a part of their job function; they do not have to pay for it.

  44. Kat_Map*

    I have a very random question that I suspect I may already have the answer to, but I want to hear it from someone else, too.
    My manager and I both work remotely from our homes, in two different cities. We usually meet up once every two weeks or so to discuss projects. When we met last week, she mentioned that she was due to give birth literally any day now, her actual due date was earlier this week. I know she won’t be taking maternity leave, but will instead be working reduced hours. She’s responded to all the emails I’ve sent this week in a totally normal turn-around time, but in the case that she has given birth, I want to lay off on the communications a bit to give her a chance to rest. Now I feel like it is 100% inappropriate for me to ask “so, have you had that baby yet?”, but I would like to know when she implements reduced hours for herself. Should I just wait it out and if she says something, awesome. If not, oh well?

    1. Ashley*

      I don’t think it’s weird to ask if she’s had the baby! I would just email her and say “Jane, I know you’re due soon and will be going on reduced hours- can you give me a heads up when that occurs so I can prepare for slower response times?”

      1. Kat_Map*

        I like the way you’ve phrased that — keeping the emphasis off the baby and entirely on our work. Thanks!

    2. SophieChotek*

      Maybe you have a good enough relationship you can ask. But also surely she can manage her own time; if she can’t answer, surely she won’t. (Similar to some advice given here to people who get frustrated when their bosses send them emails when they are on vacation, and it’s been said the –reasonable–boss knows the person is on vacation, but is just keeping employee in the loop.) Is that how you could see it? Or ask her/say to her, I am keeping you in the loop about projects X, Y, Z, but if it’s urgent and I really need your feedback I’ll put Urgent in the subject line or send you a text to tell you to read X email. (I know some people say that’s really annoying to send people texts about emails; I work remotedly from my boss, too, and we do that, if it is important, since he’s not always in the office he might be out with clients, if there is something he needs to see, I send him a text so he knows to look for it when he gets back to his computer)

      1. Kat_Map*

        Really good point — “But also surely she can manage her own time; if she can’t answer, surely she won’t.” I appreciate hearing the frequency with which people communicate with their bosses remotely, because I usually fear sending too many messages, but what you’re suggesting sounds totally reasonable — Thank you!

    3. Bob Barker*

      Anticipation is great! “Please let me know when you’ve gone into labor” is a funny thing to have to say, but it’s better than the alternative.

      I had a coworker Bob who just didn’t show up to work one day (he was in one office, I was in another). I called him and called him and ran a conference call he was supposed to run and told everyone on it he was “unavoidably engaged.” I already had a bad relationship with him, but man, his going invisible on me made me pretty mad.

      …His wife, it turned out, had gone into premature labor (at 7 months) the previous evening. He had told one coworker, Alice, who didn’t realize she was supposed to tell everyone else, and Bob hadn’t bothered to update his voicemail or put an out-of-office on his email. It all came clear when I called up that coworker and said, “Hey, is Bob just the biggest jerk in the world, or is he dead in a ditch somewhere?” and THEN she let us know that he was busy having a premature (but healthy, as it turned out) baby. Sometimes, I felt like I worked in a sitcom at that office.

  45. Dean*

    I commented on a thread awhile back and I can’t remember the username I even used but the gist of my comment was about if/when I started looking for a new job and my boss asked why how/if I should tell him that the biggest reason was the nepotism with a coworker of mine whom he is very good friends with outside work (won’t try to get them to improve because they “get to defensive” so they just make someone else do it – words from my bosses mouth, and so). Well I ended up delaying looking because I wanted to push through a little more and hope things got better but the last two weeks in particular were terrible and now I’m basically being forced into that very situation of discussing this nepotism by my boss own request…

    The situation is that coworker who I’ll call Harry is dropping the ball on things that are strictly his job duty and we keep all getting scolded, he keeps “forgetting ” to follow new improvement process we’ve brought in which I’ve talked with him, gently, about multiple times, and recently threw a fit at me for talking with the group as a whole about follow procedures strictly to the letter (our boss is pushing this hard so I’ve been pushing it hard as well) Then Harry threw another co-worker, Neville, (whom he does not like) under the bus for the same thing instead of talking to them directly or going to me going straight to our boss, Dumbledore, and it got us all in trouble, I wasn’t even in office and I was told we’d all be getting seriously reprimanded none-the-less, and Dumbledore has now asked to have a sit down with me to discuss all the drama with my impression being he thinks the personality conflicts are all Neville’s fault and that I’m not involved at all. I’m not really involved, Harry and Neville have never liked each other, I can work with the both of them though I frankly can’t stand Harry, but I am affected and am sick of dealing with Harry’s fits. But my biggest problems are a) really don’t want to discuss any of this with my boss particularly since it’s my opinion Harry is the biggest offender and Harry and Dumbledore are so close. People who’ve tried to bring this up previously have been soured against and shuffled out of the department/job and b) I’m really not directly involved and I can only say what I observed which is mainly that Harry has, blankly told me he doesn’t like Neville, and treats Neville like he’s incapable (literally not even capable of scanning paperwork) when I’ve found Neville to be pretty good at stepping up to the plate and taking responsibilities for thing and is even eager to do so. I feel like I’m in a lose-lose situation, if I speak candidly and say that while they are both very guilty of being rude about each other behind the other’s backs and don’t work together well, Harry has personality issues with *every single person* in the office and *isn’t doing their job* but if I waffle about this my boss may even become annoyed with me for not wanting to do or say anything when he’s always pushing me to take more leadership roles in the department. I’m burnt out badly and can’t say I have any good will for anybody left so I don’t really know what to do or how to deal with this situation tactfully…

    1. Thomas E*

      I think I would ask the boss for advise: “I know that there is bad blood between Harry and Neville because prior to this episode Harry has told me point blank that he he doesn’t like Neville, and Neville has expressed that he doesn’t like being treated like he is incompetent by Harry. I’ve been trying to keep them apart but obviously I wasn’t in the office when this blew up. How would you handle it?

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Is it possible to unify with the other people that have issues with Harry and provide a united front?

  46. Ugh*

    I’ve got a healthy fear I’m getting laid off today kind of our of nowhere- I’m a member of corporate regional staff and our region was restructured suddenly on Monday, getting absorbed by others, with almost everyone else who was in a similar regional position got laid off on Monday. I was on vacation and then had a work trip that rolled into it, so today’s my first day in the office for the week and my boss messaged me that “we will discuss this”. So I’m paranoid. I’m confident I could get another job quickly (I get messages from head hunters all the time), but my husband and I were just getting ready to start a family and if I have to wait a full year for FMLA that would really suck. So positive vibes, please.

    3. self employed*

      So sorry! Perhaps if you got severance and/or a signing bonus, you could tuck it away for a maternity leave option. That way you can call the shots of the timing of your family. Good luck!

    4. Ugh*

      Update: not laid off! My boss has the flu and even came in specifically to talk to me so I wasn’t worried all weekend (which I realize is gross but we’ve got a really good relationship and having the peace of mind is awesome even if I do get sick from it). She said that unless she’s getting laid off, too (which would be a huge shocker because everyone loves her and she’s really well connected), I’m good, and she’s actually campaigning for me to get a promotion! There is, of course, some bad news: with the realignment of everything she and I are now somehow over two districts, so I went from covering 8 locations 14 months ago to 28 locations 12 months ago to now….like 47 I think….but they’re looking to hire more people so it’s not all bad. Seriously SO relieved (and if I get the promotion I would DIE. It’s a job I really want but it just never made good business sense unless my boss left, and now there’s a better argument to add a head in that position)

  47. Argh!*

    My boss doesn’t read my e-mails, so I’ve started requesting “read” receipts. Now she won’t send the read receipts (assuming she actually reads them), and she prints out responses rather than reply by e-mail.

    If she suspects that I’m documenting her poor management practices, she’s right. She has not been supportive as a boss but her boss thinks she’s wonderful. I try very hard to keep the tone very professional and to suggest a solution that puts the burden on me to work out problems (because her solutions don’t work, or keep me from my core duties). I’d rather have actual replies and work out issues with her than merely have a document trail that she doesn’t reply to e-mails. I have requested a meeting to discuss specific issues and she hasn’t replied to that either.

    1. Doodle*

      I’m not sure if this is helpful or just frustrating, but I think a lot of people find read receipts really annoying and passive-aggressive. If one of the people I supervise started doing that, I’d find it extremely off-putting, and I don’t think it will lead to you getting better responses to your emails.

      Obviously her reaction—printing responses??—isn’t great either, but I don’t think that the read receipts part will help your case if you are later talking to the higher-ups. And if her boss thinks she’s wonderful, that will be even more the case.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Stop requesting read receipts. Since they can be turned down (and are being turned down), all they do is annoy your boss. They don’t actually prove to you that she’s read your emails. I think the best thing to do is just to keep emailing and putting in writing everything you can if you want to “document[…] her poor management practices.” If she prints out a response, keep the printed response as documentation. If she talks to you in person, write up your understanding of the conversation as a follow-up email.

      1. Argh!*

        I scan what she hands to me in print.

        Being ignored would be fine if I actually had the freedom to do my job without her micromanagement. She’s so busy micromanaging everybody that nothing can get done. At least I can document that I’ve asked permission for x,y,z so my lack of productivity won’t be on me.

    3. Whats In A Name*

      There is also a setting in Outlook that automatically ignores read receipts. I have mine switched to that setting.

    4. Jules the First*

      I think you’ve just discovered that your manager is not an email person. Stop sending her emails (and for god’s sake, stop it with the read receipts!)

      If I were you, I’d go and talk to her and ask if you can set up some time (daily or weekly or whatever interval makes sense) for you to get facetime with her so she can provide the input you need to do your job well. You can then write up notes about what was agreed and email those to her if you need a written record.

  48. Tuckerman*

    I’m finishing up my masters in health informatics in 2 months. I’ve never worked in healthcare or IT, but have professional work experience involving information management, a little bit of analytics & reporting, and some project management.
    When I apply to jobs, I know I should focus on those aspects of my current job. But does anyone have any other suggestions, specific to the health informatics field? Thanks!

  49. Bananagram*

    We have two work shifts: 8-4 and 9-5. I am the only person on my team who showd up on time (usually early). The rest are always 20-40 minutes late. The work we do actually means our times are important as it requires coverage at all times.

    6 weeks ago my colleague who is chronically late was granted a request to always be on the early hours. His son has started daycare and its easier to drop him off. I accept its more difficult to get kids ready and drop them off in the morning. But he was chronically late prior to that when his son was at home with his wife. And hes been late this whole time. Hes also late on days he says his wife took his son in. On average its 30 minutes late not just like 5 or 10. He then spends 20 minutes having breakfast and puttering around the office. Usually he doesn’t actually start being productive until 9 or later.

    There are 4 of us in total. He has the 8-4 and another colleague agreed to always be on 9-5 to balance it. So me and one other colleague switch off. We both hate working at 9.

    My boss is lovely but a pushover and hates that everyone else is late but won’t do anything about it besides saying they need to stay late to make it up. If we come in early we can’t leave early as we need the coverage. But on days I work from 9 there is often no coverage for 20-40 minutes in the morning which she now just does herself.

    I feel like the only reason to be on time is that I like finishing on time. I really want to ask for the 8 o’clock shift because I am the only one who is reliably on time for it. Getting out that hour earlier is easier for me for transit and helps with the work life balance. Plus I am a morning person so am more productive first thing. But I know my teammate won’t like being on 9s all the time. If I had my way I would actually be on 4 days a week but I know they will never go for that.

    Any tips on if or how I should approach this with my manager? Or if not then at least how to cope with everyone else being always late?

    1. SophieChotek*

      But if you are on at 9, should the other co-worker being late come back to bite him? (No coverage then?)
      Maybe you need to stop being early? (I get likely to be early, having a few minutes to settle in, but in this case…)
      Then it will be clearer late co-worker is late. Then maybe you could ask for the 8 shift?

      1. Bananagram*

        You would think so but it doesn’t seem to work out that way.

        When I am on 9 they will both be late and my boss will be covering first thing. She hates them being late but hates confrontation more. She once said that if we are often late days in a row we should maybe think about leaving earlier to be on time. But said it in a meek suggestive way once and hasn’t said anything yet. She wants to be a nice boss that everyone likes and so never puts her foot down on anything.

        If she has to give us criticism on attendance or anything at all during team meetings she will blame it on higher ups making her. And that she knows we are brilliant but she has to say x because of them.

        1. Artemesia*

          This boss needs to be on the hook for early coverage until she gets sick of being a lousy manager and does something about it. Don’t rescue her unless it suits you to be early and don’t come in early for your 9 am shift.

          1. SophieChotek*

            I agree. It’s her own problem then. Don’t rescue her, don’t come in early, and let her reap her own rewards. She won’t take a stand, so then she has to cover. If she can’t manage people and prefers to be on the floor instead…that’s her problem, not yours, though I totally get why its aggravating that boss won’t do anything to deal with the chronically late…

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yeah, I’d stop coming in early for your 9:00 shift. That might make her even more interested in putting you on the 8:00 shift.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      My boss is lovely but a pushover and hates that everyone else is late but won’t do anything about it besides saying they need to stay late to make it up. If we come in early we can’t leave early as we need the coverage. But on days I work from 9 there is often no coverage for 20-40 minutes in the morning which she now just does herself.

      This might be the point to emphasize. “I know you end up doing sole coverage until 8:40 when people can’t make it in on time. Since I don’t have any problems getting here by 8:00, if you make that my permanent schedule, we’ll always be well-covered during that time.” This is a more gentle way of pointing out that your coworkers are slacking (especially if you act like they “can’t” make it there on time instead of saying they “don’t”) but instead of saying “make them behave,” you’re saying “here’s a problem you have, and here is how I can fix it.”

    3. LCL*

      Are you paid by the hour? If yes, this is management’s to fix. Well, it won’t fix it but will greatly reduce it. Management has to announce, ‘new policy, you only get paid for the time you are here. We know things happen, once in awhile you will be late. So you have to use your personal leave time for those 15 minutes or half hour.’ Management needs to make it very clear that this isn’t docking or deducting pay, because the more troublesome people WILL try to say that they are being docked.

      Doing this stops most of the arguing and intrusion into personal life. I did this at my job, and it works. If you are salaried, I got nothin.

  50. Not Today Satan*

    A job-PTSD question/rant. I’m at a point in my current job where it’s not bad most of the time, but I think I’d have more opportunity for growth and for my talents to be used at another company, so I am passively looking. However, two of my previous jobs were TERRIBLE–and one of them was during the height of unemployment rates, so despite all my efforts I wasn’t able to find anything else, until I finally just saved a lot of money and quit without another job lined up.

    Anyway, I have a job application out there for a role that I think could be really exciting, and I haven’t even been called about it, but I get filled with anxiety about the thought of being offered the role! I am just soo terrified of taking another job that ends up being terrible. I know about asking culture questions and whatnot, but some people are good fakers.

    1. Bananagram*

      Is your name a Bianca Del Rio reference? Love her.

      If you have had bad work experiences in the past it makes sense you would be extra cautious. Unfortunately aside from asking questions about the work environment, company culture etc. Its really hard to know from the outside. You could ask family and friends if they know anyone who has ever worked there and if they can give you insight but beyond that. I can’t think of any other ways. Sorry.

    2. Jules the First*

      Check LinkedIn – do you know anyone who knows anyone that works or has worked there? Also check out glassdoor (with a handful of salt)

      Pay attention to the application and interview process – if they are jerks, it will show at some point.

      Ask your culture questions in the interview, get there early and make chitchat with the receptionist; if you make it well into the interview process, ask if you can meet some of the team or see the employee handbook.

      And finally, keep applying to other jobs and other companies so that you don’t become fixated on this job as your Great White Hope. Having other options makes it way easier to say no to wrong jobs.

    3. Mirilla*

      Well I can relate to this and it is very stressful. Current job is the pits and my last job wasn’t much better due to bankruptcy and nepotism. Both = family run shitshows and very dysfunctional/unfair working environments. I’m trying to find something better and it’s been a long frustrating job search for me.

      I don’t have much advice. I’m trying to be cautious too but not overly cautious because I want out of where I am now. If you think you want to leave though, don’t delay your search. I casually looked for a while before buckling down and I wish it wasn’t so casual because there were some good jobs at the beginning of this search that I’m realizing now I should have applied for.

  51. bb-great*

    Applied to a job I really, really want and where I’m pretty sure the manager would hire me if it was up to her (I’ve worked for her before in a temp capacity and she was very pleased with my work, she’s also the one who passed this job on to me) but not sure if I will make it through the gauntlet of HR–it’s a govt position so they’re very inflexible about meeting 100% of the job requirements, etc. I don’t mind missing out on jobs where I’m not the most qualified or the best fit (well, I mind, but I accept it!) but man it’s going to frustrate me so much if I get knocked out of the running on a technicality. Oh well. Job hunt continues!

    1. LQ*

      Hopefully she has some flexibility in the requirements or can pull the resume. But make sure you match the words exactly as they are looking for them. (In the job description.)

      If/hopefully when you get an interview, make sure you answer every part of all the questions. Take notes as they ask the question to make sure each part is answered.

      Not all government positions are super inflexible, and it depends a lot on how much that HR holds an iron grip on hiring vs how much the hiring manager is going to go to bat on it. I’d definitely review the required vs preferred list and double check all your required items match as they say them.

      Good luck!

      1. bb-great*

        Yeah, I definitely tweaked my resume and cover letter to adhere as closely as possible to the job description in terms of language. The skill requirements are actually pretty broad, but apparently they’re sticklers for years of experience. It depends how they decide to count/pro-rate my part time jobs. I don’t know how much pull the manager has in that sense but I think she would use whatever influence she had, so that’s good to know.

  52. Allison*

    My coworker has a habtit of using male pronouns as the default, especially when talking about engineers. We work in recruiting, and last week she sent me an e-mail detailing the background of an ideal candidate, and kept using the word “he.” After consulting with some friends to make sure it wouldn’t be disrespectful to bring it up, I sent her an e-mail asking that she not use male pronouns to describe ideal candidates, since it’s possible we may end up hiring a woman. Maybe not probable, but still possible!

    Her defense at the time was that she was in a hurry when writing the e-mail and didn’t have time to acknowledge both genders. I wanted to tell her she could have used “they” (she’s a bit older) but pushing the issue seemed rude and I didn’t want to get into an argument about changing grammar rules, so I dropped it.

    But then yesterday I found a passive candidate for the same position, and e-mailed her about the candidate, using female pronouns as I was sure she had a woman’s name (the name was from a culture I’m unfamiliar with, but it sounded feminine), and my coworker said “thanks, I’ll call him!” Again, neither of us knew for sure the candidate was a woman, but it seemed like she assumed the candidate was male because they were an engineer, and this wasn’t the first time she’s done this. I’ve often had to correct her when she used male pronouns to talk about an engineering candidate I *knew* was female.

    And then, somewhat unrelated but in the same vein, we have a woman on our team who goes by a gender neutral name (short for a female name), and she’s been here for a while. We very recently hired someone else who goes by the same name (short for a boy’s name), and now every time someone comes around asking for her, they’re told “he’s out today” or “he’s in a meeting” followed by, “oh you mean [female coworker]? she’s right here!” They don’t bother to ask which one before answering, they automatically assume it’s the guy for some reason.

    Should I raise this issue with my manager? I don’t mean to be the team’s feminist killjoy who keeps reminding people someone could be male or female, but it bothers me that in 2016 male is still the default gender unless otherwise specified.

      1. Artemesia*

        The female engineer who keeps getting dismissed because HE isn’t here should deal with this particular issue. You don’t want to be the only feminist in the office — spread the load around here.

    2. Kelly L.*

      At first I thought maybe your co-worker was just stuck in the 50s, but as I read on (3rd paragraph especially), I wondered if there could be a language barrier? I had a friend who always called my female dog “he” because dog was masculine in his first language, and he could never shake it even though he knew full well the dog was a lady dog. I wondered if she was from somewhere where the word for engineer is masculine.

      Or maybe she’s just stuck in the 50s.

      1. Allison*

        Nope, no language barrier, we’re all from the US and we all speak English as our first language.

        And I kind of hate the terms like “stuck in the 50’s” or “from the 50’s” since it dismisses sexism as something that ended a long time ago and anyone who’s still sexist is some one-off outlier who’s out of touch with reality, when sexism is still prevalent and systemic today. Not to mention that decade didn’t invent gender roles, nor did they go away the second the 60’s started.

    3. orchidsandtea*

      I think it’s very worth saying something about, but you might be more effective if it’s framed as “and here’s how it’s affecting our work”. Like, it could seep into a job description this way and cost us good candidates who are rightfully offended. Or it could do X or Y. And it can all be mitigated by doing Z.

  53. Fortitude Jones*

    This may be a little long – apologies ahead of time if it is.

    I’m nine months into a job in a different division than the one I started within my company that I like a lot (in December I’ll have been with this company three years). I really liked the division when I was going through my training program two years ago, but ultimately was placed somewhere else. The reason I liked the division two years ago was because it was kind of on the small side, so there was a lot of opportunity for growth and stretch assignments for newer employees. Fast forward to this year, and our division has grown almost at an alarming rate. We have around 70 people within our division, which is almost double the amount of employees they had before. One of our competitors decided to get out of the business because it stopped being profitable for them, so we absorbed some of their clients – and about eight of their employees. A lot of those employees had 8-10+ years of experience in our niche industry, so they came in and were assigned some of the more complex work, leaving the rest of us with more of the run-of-the-mill assignments.

    Now, I didn’t intend on staying in this division for long when I signed on (I was looking at 2-3 years) – I came to learn how to do risk management and claims adjusting work in a fast-paced environment, thinking that if I could kick ass here, I could do it in one of the bigger, slower paced divisions down the line. Plus, my company does so many different niche things, it would be insane for me not to try my hand at a lot of them at some point in my career to have a truly well-rounded resume.

    So I’ve been keeping an eye on our internal job board, and three positions recently opened up in other divisions that made me think, “Hmmm…maybe this is where I want to take my career next.” The problem is, these divisions are very different from the one I’m currently in, and one of the division positions in particular would be more of a third-party monitoring role, which can be kind of tedious, but there’s a lot of travel involved for audits (which I like). So I’m not quite sure how to bring this up in my next check-in meeting when my supervisor asks where I see myself and what kinds of things I’d like to do in our division. I know I need to start seriously getting more complex assignments to gain the experience necessary to have transferable skills for these other divisions; however, with all of the new people in our division, and considering that we only work on one product while the other divisions I’m looking at work on several different products, I’m not sure what work I could ask for or how to even broach the subject with my supervisor without raising red flags that I’m on my way out the door. My supervisor and I have a good working relationship, she raves about my work during every single one of our one-on-ones (and trying to get constructive criticism from her is like pulling teeth), but I’m very blunt and often don’t think before I speak, so I’m afraid I’ll say something off the cuff that makes it seem like I’m unhappy here, thus ruining the good rapport we have. I’m going to need her approval to post out eventually after all, so I need to remain on good terms with her since she could literally block me from moving up and out.

    Anybody got any good scripts to use so I don’t come off demanding?

    1. Bananagram*

      “I like my work and the team but am starting to think of long term career aspirations and think I would like to have more experience in x.” You could even mention the new people if you wanted saying they have got you thinking about long term stuff, or raise with her that since they came on board that they have gotten more complex stuff and you would like to do a more complex thing. If a specific new project is coming up you could mention you are interested in being involved with it.

      I think as long as you reiterate that you are happy now and that you aren’t looking to move on now then a good manager should be willing to help you get more experience in your areas of interest. Better you get experience of it with them and stay instead of leaving and getting it elsewhere.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thanks, I like that. The only problem is, we’re not project based, we’re claims based, so we don’t really know what’s coming in until they’re in the door. But this gives me an idea that I can ask her to keep a closer eye out when new losses come in the door so that I can get first crack at the crazy stuff. I get some crazy stuff every once in awhile, and a lot of historical catastrophe claims (and I’ve got some current Matthew stuff on my plate), but a lot of the stuff that becomes litigated is being passed off to others and I have litigation management experience! It’s somewhat frustrating.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Nothing wrong with asking for unique assignments or more challenging work.
          There is also nothing wrong with reminding the boss “hey I can do Matthew stuff, here’s why___”.

          I have had people do that to me when I supervised. I hate to say this but the ones who asked were the ones that got moved along quicker. Eventually, I moved everyone along, but that was in a while. I have a finite amount of brain space and honestly, there were times where I just was not thinking. I told people that because of the volume of work we handled I did not always remember and I liked to be reminded. So saying this outright helped to close that gap. Many bosses do not say this outright but they do appreciate being reminded and they do appreciate willingness to reach beyond the normal scope.
          Speak up and say it in the context of “I want to help out more.”

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            That’s a good way of framing it – like I want to take one for the team, not so much about advancing myself. If I make it sound mutually beneficial, I may be able to get what I want and can reach my goal of moving up and out quicker. Thanks!

  54. Yet another Ashley*

    Advice please. I have been at my new job for 6 months now. Its great except its the first time I have worked full time 9-5 monday to friday in 2 years prior to that I worked either 4 days a week or 5 shorter days. I am struggling to feel like I am getting a good work-life balance with the full day. I am always tired. I miss having more free-time. And with winter coming and less and less sunlight its only going to get worse.

    A colleague previously asked to go to 4 long days and was declined because they said he would be unsupervised and there was no way to ensure he was working. I know this colleague has a problem with always being late, does less work than the rest of the team, spends time on the clock looking for and applying to other jobs. Hes only been here 3 months longer than me.

    I have great attendance, outstanding reviews and have been praised for my proactiveness. I really want to ask to do the 4 longer days and have even thought up a list of things I could do with the extra time that could be quantified to show work is getting done. But I don’t know if they would be open to it because of the colleague asking previously.

    Do you think I should ask my manager about this? Or have any tips on how to survive full time work?

    1. Joanna*

      As long as you present your request in a reasonable, respectful way, there’s unlikely to be harm in asking. Maybe they rejected your co-worker for reasons that don’t apply to you or due to specific situations that have now been resolved. Maybe you’re capable of making a more compelling case than he could.

      As for how to survive full time work, it is definitely hard to get used to, especially if on a schedule that conflicts with your natural rhythms. While it’s harder to fit in big things, adding little things you enjoy to your day can make a big difference to how your work-life balance feels. Could be as simple as listening to an audiobook you enjoy while you commute, going for a walk in your lunch break or calling a friend one evening a week.

      If your routines and diet are reasonable and you’re still feeling tired all the time, if you’re able to it might be worth going to a doctor to get some basic blood tests done to see if you’re deficient in anything which might be contributing to that. Vitamin D deficiency is especially a problem in winter for many people.

    2. Dawn*

      1- Make sure you’re taking care of the basic stuff to keep you feeling good. Good sleep habits, eating well, exercising when you can, practicing self-care, etc.
      2- I am a huuuuge fan of UnFu#k Your Habitat and the methodology they espouse for doing household chores. Spending 10-15 min per day on chores instead of an hour or two every weekend (which cuts into your free time!) is fantastic when you don’t feel like you get enough free time because of a 9-5 job
      3- I think it’s totally worth it to go to your manager asking about four longer days since you are a great employee and have a plan for how to show you’re being productive during that time, however, I would wait until your first review to bring it up (so, say, at your 1 year review). If it’s a good review and you get great feedback from your boss, then you can bring it up as a “Hey, glad you like me so much, I like working here, here’s something that I have thought about that I know will make me even more productive, here’s my plan for how it could work, what do you think?”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d probably wait until you’ve been there a year. Assuming you get some kind of review at that time, it would be a natural opportunity to bring it up.

    4. Susan C.*

      First of all, I sympathize, secondly, I think you should definitely bring it up. You might hear that they don’t want to treat you differently than your co-irker, which would be stupid, but not unusual, but I really don’t think you have anything to lose here. Good luck!

    5. TC*

      can’t hurt to bring it up! I once negotiated a 9 day fortnight, where I took every second Monday off. It wasn’t quite enough for me, a 4 day week would’ve been better, but I did feel a lot better.

      Full time work takes a little while to get used to, especially coming into winter. The one thing that made it easier for me, long-term, was regular exercise and fairly rigid meal planning. I used to either cook on Sundays, or if the dish tasted better fresh, then I used to chop up all the ingredients on Sunday and store them in containers so I was ready to go during the week. Small timesaver, but it gave me time and headspace back.

    6. ZVA*

      I switched to full time for the first time ever about 6 months ago, so I empathize! I absolutely think you should ask your manager to work 4 long days (perhaps, as others have suggested, at your yearly review). But if that doesn’t pan out, my survival tips are:

      • Take breaks. Even just leaving the office for half an hour to take a brief walk or to grab lunch helps me a lot.
      • Use your free time well, now that you have less of it. Try to minimize time mindlessly spent scrolling thru Twitter, for example (that’s my time-waster of choice); think about what you actually want to do with your evenings, and do it! A little mindfulness goes a long way.
      • Get plenty of sleep, eat regularly and well… exercise!
      • Make sure you have a reliable way to decompress after work, so you can make that crucial mental shift out of “work mode.” Listening to podcasts on my longish commute helps me; exercise does too.

      Not sure if any of this will help you, but good luck!

    7. BRR*

      A big thing to consider before asking is if you have an employer that would go for this. Many don’t. If they would I would wait for the one year mark.

  55. Not Today Satan*

    And a general question–for those of you who have looked for or gotten new jobs lately, does the job market seem better to you? I know the official rate is pretty low, but just from talking to friends it still seems pretty hard to get a decent job. What has your experience been like?

    2. Bananagram*

      I think that really depends on what field/area you are in?

      I haven’t had issues recently. But a colleague who wants to move on is having issues finding a good one with his desired pay level.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I agree, it may be field and location specific. My brother’s having a hard time getting a new job (and this is a kid who, pre-college, could literally walk in the door somewhere and get hired), and he’s in a depressed area working in the social work/mental health field. Meanwhile, I job searched for almost three months late last year and had two job offers in the insurance/risk management field, and I keep fielding calls from headhunters and recruiters.

    3. bb-great*

      I think there are more jobs in general, but getting your typical permanent office job with benefits is still a challenge (unless you have really technical/in demand skills of course). I see a lot of temp/contract jobs in my field.

    5. cat*

      Maybe just a feature of my field, but I’ve had 5 job offers in the last three years, including the one I finally took a month and a half ago – there are so many jobs available that it was pretty easy for me to be picky. Knock on wood, I haven’t seen the job scarcity that may be happening in other places.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      I just received a job offer last week (yay) which I accepted. It took me about 6 months to find it, and that included submitting resumes left and right.

      What I do (Oracle ERP implementations/support) is pretty specialized. There is work out there, but the jobs are not a dime a dozen unless you go to the company up the street that’s even more dysfunctional than the company I just resigned from.

      At least in IT, if you’re willing to do contract/consulting work, there are plenty of jobs out there. If you’re willing to travel, there are even more. I’m not able to do that as I have a family, so the travel would be too hard on all of us, and also I need something stable as I carry the benefits for all of us. So I had to hold out for a full-time role.

    7. Karanda Baywood*

      It took me about 3 months to find a job this summer. I am in somewhat of a niche field and did not want to commute into Big City which narrowed the field further.

      I came close to two other offers before accepting my current job offer, which has everything I wanted in terms of salary/benefits/commute.

    8. Slippy*

      I’m in IT security and the job market is mostly pretty good. I say mostly because while there are a lot of openings not all the opportunities are good opportunities. There are more than a few crappy contracting openings and there has been an increasing push by industry to lower the cost of security even though demand is going up.

      Also getting hired in IT security (or cyber-security if you want to cyber everything) can be its own little challenge irrespective of the actual job market. In many cases it is advantageous to bypass HR as much as possible because it is difficult to measure competence by non-IT people.

    9. Tilly W*

      I was laid off in April and was lucky to have three companies book interviews and offer competitive offers within two months. I started working in June for 7k more, slight decrease in benefits BUT a pension after three years. When I was laid off three years ago, I struggled to find jobs to even apply for and it was Q4 when I feel hiring slows down. I ended up taking a salary decrease and huge cut to benefits at a job I only lasted at 8 months. I’m in Corporate Communications and feel I was just lucky this time around since our field can be kind of fickle.

    10. H.C.*

      I job hunted for about 2 years (while still working fulltime at old job) but I didn’t think it was particularly hard, it just requires considerable patience as the application process moves ever-so-slowly, which made me more thankful that I was still working during that whole time.

      It also helps that I didn’t actually dislike my old job, but was just ready for something new and different. And actually, I got promoted during that 2 year period, which gave me more leverage come offer & negotiation time.

    12. HannahS*

      Awful. I’ve been applying and applying and applying to entry-level stuff in admin and research assistant jobs (graduated 1.5 years ago) and the only interview I got was because I knew the business owner’s daughter. But even that was about a 15 hours a week, evening job that paid a bit above minimum wage. I didn’t take it because make more working part-time for an after-school tutoring business. But I’ve decided that if I can’t get something decent by December, I’ll sign up for temp agencies.

  56. Gaara*

    Has anyone moved law firms as a senior associate and had it take a really long time to find find a new job? I’ve been trying hard to find something somewhere else for a close to a year, and have had a grand total of two interviews (at one firm, which I have not formally heard back from – but it’s been long enough that I am not optimistic). I work in a niche are (plaintiff-side antitrust litigation), and while I haven’t been restricting my search, it feels like that is not helping.

    It’s just so hard not to feel discouraged, and like I’ll never find a job elsewhere. So if anyone has pulled this off – really, any job move that has felt like it was taking forever – I’d love to hear some words of encouragement!

    1. Jules the First*

      When I made my last move (not law but something equivalently esoteric – in my city of 7 million people, there’s about 30 who do what I do at this level…I bumped into a peer a few months ago who was visibly pregnant and congratulated her, she thanked me and said ‘I’m thrilled but I feel so guilty making everyone update their resumes again!’), I interviewed in November with the company I now work for and didn’t get an offer until May. I applied for another role in May this year and they didn’t hire until September. Niche stuff takes time, because it takes time for exactly the you-shaped hole to open up.

      My advice: network, network, network. If there’s a good niche recruiter in your area, reach out; if there’s someone who seems to know everyone, make sure they know you’re open to new opportunities. Get to know your peers at other firms – they’ll know who’s thinking of moving, and the network often makes recommendations when someone moves on (so many niche jobs are never advertised). And stay upbeat – you have a decent job now, so you can hold out for the right fit!

      1. Gaara*

        Thanks, Jules! I’m doing all those things, except perhaps staying upbeat (at least privately, although I’m trying). It’s actually really helpful to hear examples of how slow hiring can be.

  57. sssssssss*

    Have you ever called an employer to ask what the salary range is for a job posting when it wasn’t listed? The job was listed on their own website so I could see why they would not post the salary in this case. I know this particular employer does pay well and has excellent benefits but it would be know if it was worth to jump ship for.

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t know that I’d call to ask before applying. It could make it look like the paycheck is the only thing you’re interested in. (Which is silly, because of course we all work for a paycheck, but you know what I mean.)

    2. bb-great*

      I think this is something you’d usually talk about in a phone screening. If they don’t do those, you could ask when they contact you to set up an in-person interview.

    3. BRR*

      Nope. While it makes complete sense to want to know a salary range before investing any time into applying for a job, this would be out of the ordinary. In general I would not call an employer while applying for a job there. I would rarely say you should email either. Most of the time it comes off as trying to get a leg up on others. For this situation, it would likely rub them the wrong way. They didn’t post the salary for whatever reason.

  58. No more tears*

    I’m a legal assistant, going on 10 months with my current firm and was just paired with one of the firm’s most prominent attorneys (we’re on week 3 together). This week my husband and I decided to do a trial separation, and I’ve been trying my best to hold it together during work, but it’s been tough.

    Yesterday morning we had a little ‘fire drill’ because the attorney thought I’d missed a deadline– I hadn’t and it was fine, but I had dropped the ball. I was able to take care of it easily, thankfully. When she got into the office a little while later my eyes must have been red from crying (about the separation) but she thought I was upset about the deadline kerfuffle. I went into her office to tell her privately why I was *actually* upset, because I didn’t want her to think I would lose my head over a minor deadline that I didn’t even miss. But of course I started crying just trying to get the words out. She was very kind about it, but I was mortified.

    Someone please tell me I was right to share that with her despite the tears? I literally haven’t shared it with anyone else at work, but I felt it was necessary at that moment. Better to work with someone going through actual hard times than someone who cries over stupid crap… right?

    1. misspiggy*

      You were dead right – I’m sure the attorney was relieved knowing you weren’t upset with her. Sorry you’re having a hard time at the moment.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oh, yeah, I think it was the right thing to do. I would hate having to air my personal issues at work, but I do think it was important to make sure she didn’t jump to the conclusion that you’re the kind of assistant who cries at minor work-related kerfuffles. And since she hasn’t known you for long, that wasn’t an unreasonable conclusion for her to jump to.

      (also, here’s a little electronic hug {} )

    3. Gaara*

      Right. If they think you’re a crier in general and they have to treat you with kid gloves and that you can’t handle the stress of the position, that’s much more likely to make them think less of you.

      Your tears are understandable and if she doesn’t totally suck won’t matter. It’s awful that you felt you had to tell her, but I don’t think you made the wrong decision or handled it poorly.

    4. ZVA*

      I think you were 100% right to tell her. I hate sharing personal info w/ people I work with, but if I was visibly affected (say I had red eyes from crying or my work was suffering or whatever else) I’d want them to know what was up. Hard times happen! I think she’ll appreciate your honesty, and if it were me I’d much rather she know the truth than assume I’m crying about some minor thing.

    5. TC*

      As someone who has cried at work about not-work related things, I totally get it! (We were moving and there was a possibility I’d have to give up my cat, which, while not a trial separation, had me quite wound up). Taking the 5 minutes to express the feeling helps you get back to work I find.

    6. Fiona the Lurker*

      If you were the boss and someone trusted you with this information, how would *you* feel? My bet is you’d be grateful to have an explanation, and honoured your employee had been able to confide in you. Unless your boss clearly shows you she feels otherwise, you’re probably safe to assume that this was also her reaction.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes. She sounds like a good boss. She is probably relieved to know that you recognized that you were sending mixed signals and you trusted her enough to come forward and openly discuss it. She probably thinks you are gutsy and have good self-awareness.

  59. EA*

    I’ve been waiting for this open thread.

    So I am an EA to a VP (in our org, all department heads are VPs, he would probably be considered a middle manager in other orgs) of a 10,000 person org. I am 95% certain that he is being asked to lead a struggling department within our org. I know this via meetings I scheduled (certain key people, and I know their roles), and people in the other department who have heard whispers. My question to you all is what happens to me? Do I go with him? Is it assumed or am I asked? Or do I wait until someone fills his job? Or am I plain laid off? (they laid off another admin in my department so I am a little worried, granted they were unhappy with his performance, and sort of used a layoff and lack of work as a way to get rid of him, then redistributed the work). Complicating things, in my org they always have a new department head be interim, and then appoint him formally if they want to, or find someone else and just have him fill in for the time being. So it would really be sort of a temp-to-perm situation, and he would probably officially keep his current job.

    Complicating this, I really, really don’t want to work for the other department. He might fix things eventually but it is bad over their currently. How do I go about expressing a preference, when I am not even sure I will be asked.

    1. Rat Racer*

      Are they going to backfill your VP’s role in your current department? In my company, EA’s are often allowed to babysit an empty Exec position until a new exec comes in, and in the interim, they act as more of a department administrator. We never have enough administrative help, so it’s always a boon to us when one of the EA’s is allowed to freelance.

      I think the real question is how you feel about working for your current boss. Is he a good enough egg to make you want to follow him anywhere? (It doesn’t sound like). Are you willing to stay put (assuming that’s an option) and roll the dice on whomever backfills your current boss?

    2. Pwyll*

      So, I’ve seen literally all of what you’ve described in the past. It can entirely depend on your workplace. In one workplace, when the VP was moved to another department she took her assistant with her. In another, the new VP brought his own EA, and the current EA was given “floating” status, where she effectively covered for all the EAs across all departments for a few months. She hated it, but ended up as the CEO’s EA, so it all worked out. In those situations, my understanding is the VP asked them to move with them, through I’m not sure they had much of a choice in the matter. In another I’ve seen the EA get moved to a lower-level departmental role, or laid off entirely. It can be hard to predict.

      That said, you should talk to your boss about this kind of thing. If not now (because you don’t know for sure if that’s happening), try to have a performance check-in and work it in as a discussion about your future with the company and growth goals.

      1. BRR*

        I’ve also seen or heart all of them. Some people stay together because the EA knows how to support that VP very well. Spme places keep the EA in their post because that is the position they have. They are the EA to the VP of Teapots position, not the EA to the person.

  60. MadisonCheese*

    I’m the subject of a bullying complaint from someone whose role reports to me – I think it’s baseless (I guess I would though right?) and I’m finding the whole thing pretty stressful. My heart went out of this job a long time ago and I just wanna quit at this point. Prior to the allegations my physician recommended I take leave because of work stress, and I know my employers are big ‘no smoke without fire’ advocates. Even if the complaint we resolved by whatever means we’re a small group and I wouldn’t feel comfortable staying…and I for other reasons my employers wouldn’t be so sad if I left.

    So long story short, does resigning in the middle of a bullying issue always make you look guilty? And is there anything I can do to 1. get out, 2. get out with a reasonably good reference? The complaint is informal at this point, but may progress beyond that.

    1. Artemesia*

      difficult to manage people find being supervised bullying — if it were me I would not resign now unless a real plum of a job came along of course — because yes it lets some creep drive you off. I would be assertive with my own management pointing out that to a slacker, being supervised by one’s manager is perceived as ‘being told what to do’ i.e. bullying. This employee is difficult to manage and this is his way of avoiding being managed.

      But you are there and know your environment and your own mental health at this point. Most of us would feel like dirt in this circumstance — and ultimately you should do what is best for you. I’d not quite without finding a good job first though if you can stand it.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      “difficult to manage people find being supervised bullying”
      This is true… but also your reaction to it matters. I don’t know enough from this post to say if what you did was truly “bullying” or managing, and there are lots of variations and perceptions on that depending on the office culture. I guess you would have to provide your employers with what you did do and determine if the actions met fair and reasonable guidelines and company policy for dealing with an unproductive/bad employee.

      I don’t want to side on either, but managers can and will do subtle things that are perceived as being “bullying” even if it’s not outright meanness or name calling, etc., etc. [Believe me I’m on the flip side of something similar right now, so I guess I’m a bit sensitive to it.] I was considered a stellar employee by my FormerBoss, but with NewBoss I just get they sense they want me gone so they can bring in their own team, and we are definitely not on the same page. No outright nastiness, but there are very subtle exclusions, job duty changes, budget cuts so my projects go unfinished, go-arounds, and some gaslighting, and you are made to feel as though nothing you do is ever “good enough” and you are always the one lacking. Uncertainty and unease has turned to active distrust. If you speak up and advocate for yourself–well suddenly you become the “difficult to manage” employee. Just saying-bullying (or whatever you call it) can be subtle. Be really, really honest with yourself.

      So, I don’t feel resigning in the middle makes you “guilty” but I’m sensing here this job is a rather poor fit overall, yes? If that’s the case, you probably do need to consider moving on, unless the employee in question really is on the cusp of being let go for performance or other issues and you can honestly say you weren’t doing any of subtle form bullying or gaslighting. If you heart is not truly in it anymore, I would seek to work out an EXIT STRATEGY and exit timeline with your employer, regardless of the outcome of the complaint. Calmly lay out the reasons you describe (lack of purpose, poor fit, comfort with team, etc.). This should help you still retain a good reference (agree beforehand on what will be said) and an easy transition for them, and a good employer will appreciate it.
      Trust me, you are not doing the rest of the team any good by staying if you feel this way.

    3. Girasol*

      Can you get any details on the behavior that justifies the claim of bullying? is there a chance you could put the matter to bed quickly (with HR if not the complainer) and move on soon with a clean record?

      1. bibliovore*

        I was accused of “bullying” by a subordinate who considered every notice (written or verbal) of any request that was not completed by stated delivery date or pointing out that the work was incomplete, or having a coaching meeting “bullying” She lodged a formal grievance and got the union involved to represent her. She did make the job miserable for almost a year and half.

        There were many stressful meetings where I had to defend myself. I was fortunate that HR and my supervisor “had my back” I documented my behavior and treated her with excessive kindness. I also made sure there were witnesses to our interactions so that other employees could testify to kindness and courtesy on my part.
        She is gone and my job and the climate is a positive one.
        Separate your feelings about your job from the situation. Evaluate your own behavior and then decide if the job is for you.

    4. MadisonCheese*

      Thanks for the input – I don’t want to go into too much detail in case I’m identified. The person who has complained was a candidate for my role and didn’t get it – and I’ve found them tough to deal with since I got promoted. I haven’t initiated a PIP or disciplinary as although they’re uncooperative and generally don’t do what I ask, it’s not a battle I could face fighting right now in a small team (yes, I really don’t enjoy my job at all). So I let them do their own thing pretty much, and the issues they’ve raised are what I would consider normal business decisions which have a basis but I suppose could be perceived as trying to unsettle them. There’s been no pulling their projects, trying to trip them up or anything of that sort – the main part of the complaint is I think to do with me allegedly micromanaging them.

      I am 100% out the door regardless for my own sanity regardless :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Unfortunately the two go hand-in-hand, because you did not do a PIP the employee read that as an opportunity to go right after you. Some people are like this. This one has tripped me up, too. But now that you see it, you know not to let it go by you again.

        I was burned out a a job and I had a baseless complaint filed against me. If the complaint went official, worse case scenario I could be looking at jail time.

        I wanted to leave but I stayed to see it through. Once everything was cleared, I left.

        So to leave now or to leave later.

        If you chose to leave later you need to stand up for yourself. If you cannot commit to standing up for yourself then perhaps leaving now is the best option.

        Maybe you can talk to a trustworthy person and find out what they think. In my case I had advocacy from both of my bosses, although one boss was a weak advocate. If you can’t find an advocate and/or a trustworthy person then, again, leaving might be your best option.

        Similar to what you are experiencing I had a day where I just did not feel well. Using sick time came with a punishment so we avoided using sick time. My actions that day were clear to me, but others saw some ambiguity and that triggered the questioning.

        Find out what their process will be for reviewing your situation. Mine dragged on for weeks. It was needless drama. The officials involved never spoke to me directly. I never wrote up my side of the story. Since people had a habit of lying, I even wondered if there were charges.

        Here’s some of your conflict, you can’t care AND not care at the same time. Figure out if you care. I decided that I cared about having a good reference and a good work record. I had worked there a decade with NO problems,so I was heavily invested, unfortunately, and I had to care.

        Once everything was cleared up, I landed on that the job was a bad fit, I was burned out and I should have understood that a long time ago. I was older and wiser. The biggest let down in this whole story was I let ME down, I failed to bail me out of a bad situation. Decide to take good care of yourself going forward.

        1. MadisonCheese*

          Thanks for that. There isn’t anyone within the business who would advocate for me or who I could really approach for an honest review of my actions – from what I’ve seen so far of the investigative process pretty much any decision I’ve ever made since being promoted can be viewed as something it isn’t. This is the difficulty with bullying – it’s not about intent but how the person says they interpreted it. So even if it was a legitimate business move if someone feels it was done to bully them then (as this person apparently does) I’ll spend my life (and have done up to now) over-explaining every move I make and wondering how it might be misinterpreted.

          Ultimately I know I have to get out for my own welfare – no matter what happens I’m worn down and couldn’t stay in an environment where said employee is waiting for the next time they feel my actions are bullying them. I don’t have any particular support from my employer nor will I (I suspect) going forward. It would suit everyone I guess if I left….including me!

          1. MissDisplaced*

            “I’ve found them tough to deal with since I got promoted. I haven’t initiated a PIP or disciplinary as although they’re uncooperative and generally don’t do what I ask.”

            That is not much to go on Madison and “don’t do what you ask” is kind of vague… though I understand if you don’t want to give too much detail. What were you asking? Are others asked to do the same? The fact that this person was a candidate for your role further complicates the issue, so yes, there may be some resentment there. It’s hard to tell unless we know more about what their specific behavior was or what they are/are not doing or what kind of changes or decisions you tried to implement.

            But here’s the thing, you NEED to manage this team if you decide to stay. That means not letting them do whatever they want–but fairly holding people accountable. This is not bullying, it is managing.
            This means calling them ALL together and giving them clear and precise job duties, deadlines, goals, “rules” if you will, of what is/and is not acceptable for the job, and then holding each and every one on the team to be accountable for them and getting their part done. This kind of accountability is not bullying and is normal.
            However, this needs to be done equally, and probably all together, even with the one you don’t like, so they do not perceive this “managing” as them being singled out. They will fall in line or not. These things need to be clear and transparent to all, including upper management, who would hopefully support you in this.

  61. Anne*

    The recent question (and comments!) about a grumpy departmental assistant has me thinking: I’m hiring a new executive assistant. My current assistant, who I inherited, is truly terrible, and while I’ve had decent assistants in the past, it has been when I’ve been in a less senior role, so the nature of the job has been different. I’m really hopeful that my new EA can help me in substantive ways. Does anyone have any thoughts about the qualities I should look for in a candidate or how to make that relationship work for both of us? My job is chaotic, to put it lightly, with a ton of direct and indirect reports and multiple distinct areas of responsibility, and it can be difficult to keep it all balanced.

    1. Bananagram*

      Tell the person you are interviewing that. Everything from “My job is chaotic…” and ask how they would manage that (note manage not cope). Mention that its a role providing substantive assistance. Ask them what they think being a good EA looks like (a good answer to look for is one that mentions: managing expectations, and where possible anticipating needs). You could ask for examples of times they have had to manage/juggle very different tasks and how they handled it. How do they prioritize, multi-task, stay organised.

      Depending on if they are your screen ask how they get rid of sales people, etc.

      That should help get an idea of if they can handle the work.

      You may also want to think about what your current terrible EA is doing wrong, is she lacking is specific soft skills and ask questions about those areas.

      Good luck!

    2. EA*

      Do you have a very clear picture of what you want from your EA?

      I would say start there, you know you need help keeping priorities balances, so you could try and ask candidates what sort of system they would recommend (i personally would recommend daily or weekly check-in’s where the EA and boss run through everything and make sure nothing falls through the cracks).

      You want someone organized, with good follow through, and also a level of persistence/aggressiveness that matches yours. Some people want a hard-charging type, some find that off-putting. Also- what is wrong with your current assistant? Think through her faults.

      As for making this work for both of you- ask what your EA want out of the job. If she wants career development (etc. to learn a certain skill and eventually move to X job), give that to her. If she wants to stay in this job and values communication/feedback, try and give that to her.

    3. Pwyll*

      All of the above. Also, try to come up with scenarios that have happened where things didn’t go right, and how you would have preferred them to be handled. Use those as questions in the interview to gauge how the EA would handle it. When we hired an EA for my old CEO, we asked him what his longest-term frustration was with his last EA, which was abysmal scheduling problems. Then we asked the candidates something like this: “So, Boss comes in and asks you to book him a flight on the 2 shuttle to NYC so he can stay midtown and attend the xyz Gala. He also wants you to make sure he meets John Doe. But he’s scheduled to be in DC that day. There is no 2:00 shuttle to NYC that day. And the Gala isn’t in midtown. What do you do, what is your thought process, how would you handle it? There’s no right answer, just walk us through it outloud.”

      The amazing person we hired answered very thoughtfully “I’d give options for flights that do work, ask whether he wanted to cancel DC or send another representative, ask if I can put him in a hotel closer, etc. etc. etc.” The ones who balked at this clearly weren’t going to be the right candidate.

      Good luck!

    4. SJ*

      I agree with everything Bananagram and EA said. Last month I started an EA role that had been newly created to support two VPs. They manage different teams, so it can be quite chaotic and require shuffling around of priorities and quick work — but they really pressed me about my experience with that in the interview (luckily, I came from a place that was often super crazy, and I’m great at managing it). And your EA will be working with lots of different people, so (s)he needs to be the kind of person who can work well with everyone and not take things personally. This is huge. I used to work with an EA who had well-known vendettas with any number of people who had “slighted” her somehow, which I think made her work a lot worse, and people absolutely thought worse of her. I’ve worked with lots of people who have been rude or difficult, but I let everything roll off of me instead of taking things to heart, which has given me the reputation of being reliable and easy to work with.

      And along with what EA said, a huge reason I took this job was because of the growth potential. I had been in a position where I couldn’t really progress into a new role, and I was stuck – I’m now at a much bigger organization, learning lots of new things, where there’s a ton of room for growth. My now-bosses asked me what I wanted to get out of the job in the interview and talked about all the different ways they could help me advance in my career, and that was a big reason I left the interview very, very interested in the position.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Do you have a job description for the position? If yes, review it and add to it.

      Make a list of what you need from an assistant that you do not have now. This can be used two ways, it can be helpful for hiring but it can also be helpful for talking points with your current assistant. The list does not have to comprehensive, however it should hit the areas that need the most fixing.

      I think it is also helpful when a boss is able to articulate what she does. I know in chaotic environments this seems almost impossible. But it is possible to start a description by talking about responsibilities and situations that come up on a recurring basis. Nail down the stuff that comes up over and over.

  62. Olive*

    Hi! What do you guys think is the appropriate amount of time to wait before putting in notice after completing an employer-paid school course?

    My boss wanted me to take two courses (i.e. I didn’t ask for it), and the last one finishes in May 2017. (Total cost for both is about $1700, if that’s relevant. Also, I started this job in April 2016.) Before knowing about this, I had been planning to start job hunting in May-June 2017. Should I wait longer than that to preserve his reference in the future? In light of the courses I’m thinking now about starting my search in August or so of 2017. But I’m also trying to get out of here as soon as possible for a few reasons. It’s a pretty bad environment and very bad for me financially. Thank you for the input!

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      You could always start the job hunt then, in case it takes a lot longer than you think it will (which sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t of course!). Allison often says here that to the company that is simply a “cost of doing business.” Someone could quit at any time, at least you are putting a lot of thought into it!

      1. Olive*

        Yes, I think you are right, especially about not knowing the timeline of getting another job. Thank you!

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      If these are courses that your boss is requiring then, in my opinion, it’s a cost of doing business and shouldn’t change your schedule of looking for a new job.

      1. Olive*

        This is true, I suppose I am just worried because he has a short fuse and takes things personally, but you are certainly right. Thank you!

        1. Natalie*

          Don’t tie yourself into knots trying to prevent someone from taking things personally. He may anyway, or he’ll take some other thing personally. That’s his issue to worry about, not yours.

    3. Belle di Vedremo*

      Please find out if the company has a policy on whether or not you would be required to repay the cost of the courses if you leave before some specific amount of time after completing the training. When it’s short term courses the boss asks you to take it may not have a formal timeline as tuition assistance usually does, but especially if your boss has a short fuse and takes things personally you should know the company policy. If it’s up to the boss, figure out how you’d protect yourself from potential fallout.

      Depending on how much you’re interested in the courses and how the two courses fit together (eg, part 1 and part 2, or topic A and topic R), you may want to suggest taking one now and the other “later” with your internal assumption being that you won’t be there when that “later” rolls around.

  63. ButFirstCoffee*

    Hello. I need some advice. I’ve been at my first job out of college about six months. I like the commute, and the people are fine, my main issue is there is never enough to do. I consistently ask for more tasks and will sometimes get projects that are then halted for issues beyond my control. I am the first hire in this new department, so I think part of it is they just don’t know what to do with me. I attempt to pitch things in meetings, only to be told “we aren’t ready” for such and such yet. I guess my fear is they will wake up and realize they don’t need me because I am not doing a lot. My dad thinks I should stick it out at, while my mom agrees maybe I should find another job before I lose this one. Any advice?

    1. Maybe*

      I am also a recent grad, but with 6 years in the workforce while in school. I could be wrong, but I think that this is commonplace for many low-level jobs, corporate or not. A large part of the job at our age and skill level, I think, is just showing up and doing the stuff, even if it’s boring or slow or mundane. At my current job, I also struggle with not having a lot to do, so during down time I usually try to brush up on my skills that will help me when there *is* stuff to do (Excel, Quickbooks, re-organizing, improving filing and data systems, etc.). I would advise against quitting your job so soon if it’s positive overall. Like, wait a year and then start looking. Right now, I think it’s just about sticking it out. Good luck.

    2. Joanna*

      There’s so many free online courses on various business and technical topics. Perhaps they’d be open to you doing one relevant to your role during downtime?

      1. ButFirstCoffee*

        That’s a great idea actually. Sort of an expanded version of your idea, today I’ve been looking for some cheap networking events I can attend to fill up time and try to get new ideas from people, as well as make connections!

    3. Allypopx*

      Stick it out! It’s a new department, and they’re still getting their legs under them. Language like “we aren’t ready” has an implied “yet” at the end of it that should tell you there’s work around the corner, and they’re still figuring out exactly what your role is going to be.

      If you see other warning signs that tell you they didn’t hire right for this department (other people not having work, talk of redundancies, financial panic, people acting annoyed with your lack of work or unsure how to interact with you) take those more seriously, but I wouldn’t jump ship just yet.

      1. ButFirstCoffee*

        Yeah, people sometimes joke about me not being there a lot because some of them have much more to do having been here for years, but I think for the most part people have seen that I do my best when I have assignments.

        1. Allypopx*

          And as others have stated – not at all outside the norm. Don’t stress yourself out unnecessarily!

    4. Kat_Map*

      I agree with the previously made comments to stick it out. I was in the same boat when I first graduated. I was technically an hourly employee, but filling up my quota of hours for the week was so challenging in the first few months because there was so little for me to do! However, staffing changes occurred in our department and I ended up inheriting the company’s second largest client, so before I knew it I was inundated with work.

      In the meantime, keep yourself finely attuned to the things going on around you at work. Learn what you can where you can, offer to help anyone who might need it, or brush up on skills in your downtime. Good luck!

      1. ButFirstCoffee*

        Once again, I am so glad to hear that this is “normal” for people my age. It’s really reassuring!

    5. Lil Lamb*

      I would say you should try to stick it out for a year, but start job hunting now because you never know how long your search will take. If you have no other problems other than a lack of work then it’s worth staying. Try your best to take initiative where you can and make sure your work is great.

      1. ButFirstCoffee*

        Thank you to everyone who said to stick it out. Today I finally found some magical drive left in me to work on a project we had talked about in the past to present to my boss. Even if he says we can’t use it yet at least I will have practice and something to keep me busy. I just needed some encouragement to remind me it’s not time to bail! :)

    6. Girasol*

      You may want to be careful how you say “I don’t have enough to do.” It sounds like a good thing: ambitious self-starter wants to take on more work! Yay! But if your boss doesn’t have anything for you and perhaps feels a little guilty for not being better organized, then it can come off as nagging. If you stay, watch for a pained expression when you hear “No, nothing right now” and take it as a sign that it’s time to back off a bit.

  64. Anon4Today*

    So this is a little work, a little personal. If it’s too personal, I’ll be happy to repost tomorrow. Last Wednesday, I told everyone in my office that I was pregnant (I’d told my manager earlier). I’d just gotten past the ‘safe’ zone. I took Friday off for a pre-natal appointment and had daycare interviews scheduled all day. Well, at the appointment they couldn’t find the heartbeat, and it’d been determined that I’d had a missed miscarriage where the baby is no longer growing, but your body still believes its pregnant and doesn’t physically miscarry the baby. I had to have a D&C this past Monday and then returned to work on Wednesday (way too early, but later vacations have already been scheduled and plane tickets bought so I didn’t have much of a choice unless I took unpaid time).

    Well returning to work has been absolute hell. The vast majority of people have simply ignored me completely. They’ll walk past my desk and say hi to everyone except me or they’ll see me coming and turn and walk away. My manager actually regaled me with stories about how she could have carried her baby to term, but just didn’t feel like taking the necessary steps as it’d been ‘too much work’ and she ‘didn’t want to be a mother that badly anyways.’ I swear it took every ounce of strength I had left to simply walk out of her office. I understand that people don’t know what to say in situations like this, but this seems like its been over the top especially in contrast to my husband’s workplace where we’ve been sent flowers and cards from almost every single one of the people he works with.

    I guess my question is how do I get through this without losing respect for literally every single person I work with? Before this, I loved everyone here. Everyone was caring and giving. I was planning my long-term career vision here. Now, I feel like I’m perfectly ok to go somewhere else. I know that’s not a decision I need to be making in my current emotional state, but I just want work to be the one place that is normal. How do I get back there?

    1. bb-great*

      I don’t have any advice but I wanted to say I’m so sorry. That’s a terrible situation all around.

    2. AyBeeCee*

      I’m so sorry, and your manager handled this terribly. Are you able to go to her manager with a request for how people should act (which shouldn’t be necessary but apparently is for your office)? Do you think you might get a better response there? I don’t blame you for wanting to leave.

    3. orchidsandtea*

      Your manager is horrifying and completely out of line. Can you work from home for a few days? Your heart is incredibly vulnerable right now, and your team is stomping all over it.

      I don’t know if you can avoid losing respect for these folks. They’re not behaving respectfully. I don’t think you have any reason to respect them. But if you can build a wall around your heart, just at work — some of the tips I use are to turn my mental image of the situation into a flat photograph, or make it black-and-white, just to internally distance myself. And maybe give yourself permission to be a little rude. Things like cutting your manager off mid-rude-sentence to say “Whoops, I think I hear my phone ringing”. Just protect yourself as best you can. None of this is your fault.

      By the way, after my loss someone on here recommended a couple of Reddit sites: r/miscarriage and r/ttcafterloss. I don’t know what I’d have done without the people there. It’s a group of women and men who get it, and who support each other through the hardest times.

      I am so sorry for your loss.

    4. Dawn*

      What. In. The. Hell.

      What in the actual hell.

      Are you saying that the people you work with including your manager are giving you shit because you had a miscarriage? Do they think you had an abortion or something? Are they all unfeeling robots without an ounce of humanity?

      If you do decide to not just walk the hell out (and contact HR on the way out of the building because oh my god this is so beyond the pale I can’t even), then sit down with your manager and tell her in absolutely no uncertain terms what happened- that you had a very wanted pregnancy and that your baby died. I mean maybe she’s super ignorant about these things and thinks you had an abortion? Which doesn’t make her or your co-worker’s treatment of you any better.

      Also oh my god I am so, so sorry for your loss and for the absolute bullshit you’re going through right now. I hope you have a very strong Team You and can take time to grieve in whatever way and for however long you need to grieve. *hugs*

    8. Artemesia*

      Someone I love just went through this and it is heartbreaking. So sorry about your loss and it is especially hard once you are in the ‘safe zone’ — I remember the feeling of getting to 12 weeks. People really don’t know how to respond to this situation but surely they should do better than this, particularly your boss with her ghastly comments. This is an emotionally difficult time, I’d try to keep it together for the next month and see how it goes. Maybe this is just a group of clods who don’t know what to say and you will be able to appreciate their other strengths then or maybe you will feel like moving on — but this is not the time to do anything except take care of yourself and your husband and grieve your loss.

    9. Anon4Today*

      My manager has always been a little ‘cold.’ And I really don’t think she was intentionally trying to hurt me. In her own way, I think she was trying to say she’d been there. But yea, it definitely didn’t come off that way.

      And thank you everyone for the sympathy, and orchidsandtea for the sites. I’ll definitely check those out. This has definitely been the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced. One second I’m making it ok and the next, I’m sobbing in the bathroom. Nothing can really get you past losing your child. My husband and I have picked a name and will be creating a memorial garden in the spring for her. I’m hopeful that once I have a place I can visit and talk to my girl, that it’ll at least get a little easier to breathe. Tissue was also sent for tests so hopefully soon we’ll have some answers to what happened too. Thank you all again so very much. Your kind words have been a bright spot in my day.

      1. Althea*

        I’m so sorry. And I understand. I also went through something similar, with a very troubled twins pregnancy. Problems. Abortion. Terrible choices about much-wanted little boys. And… I also made a garden for them. That would have been my first piece of advice.

        For me it has been 2 years, and mostly you just keep going. The times between when you think about them and cry get longer. Anniversaries are hard.

        At work, most people only knew it was a loss, not that I actually had abortions. I would suggest, if you can, to emphasize anytime you tell someone that you lost your baby (rather than focusing on the procedure, if possible). Is that why people are giving you such a hard time? Frankly, I don’t think you should engage at all. If they are shits, just do what you can to get through and out of the conversation. And note that they are not good people, at all, and that you should not trust them to be empathetic or kind. Do you want to be around these people? This is something I would leave a job over. I would not try to save respect for them; I couldn’t work with people who are that shitty. Also, if you find some people ARE being kind, tell them about your experiences with others (when you feel able to do it). Your work culture needs to change, and the best you can do is get allies who have some kindness. This is next-level stuff – behind a facade of professionalism… are these good people?

        If you want to talk about it more than people in person are willing to listen (I did) try reddit.com/r/babybumps . Reddit gets a bad rep, but never a kinder forum of expectant parents have I found. There are a lot of women who have lost pregnancies there.

        1. Althea*

          Also – your real question was “how do I get back there?” When it happened to me, most people took 1 opportunity to express something about the loss. I cried, or almost, every time. People stopped bringing it up after that, and I could work like everything was normal. So, I don’t think you have to worry about that.. If you work in a large place and people keep bringing it up – talk to either HR or someone you trust and ask them to please spread the word not to bring it up. That it’s painful and you want to keep something so emotional out of the workplace, or else you won’t be able to concentrate.

      2. JMegan*

        I’m so sorry for your loss. I can’t begin to imagine what you’re going through, and I’m sorry that your coworkers have been so awful about it.

        I think you’re living a lot of people’s worst fears, and they don’t know how to handle it, so they just shut down (except for your manager, who clearly *should* have shut down and didn’t. WTAF.) Likely they’re not horrible people, they just really don’t know what to say to you. Not that any of that excuses their behaviour, of course – they should at least be trying.

        I love the idea of a memorial space for your little girl when the time comes. Please take good care of yourself in the meantime.

      3. orchidsandtea*

        You are very much in the early days, the “ravine of suck”. Give yourself a lot of grace right now. If you’re still breathing, you are doing a good enough job. The rest will come in time. Right now, just be kind to yourself, and rest as much as possible.

        May your little girl’s memory be eternal. I’ll light a candle for all three of you.

      4. Elizabeth West*

        The garden sounds lovely. <3

        This is not your fault. I know many people it's happened to. It's nothing you did or didn't do.

        Althea is right–the shitty people are not to be trusted.

      5. Fact & Fiction*

        We lost my baby nephew when he was less than a year old and no words can describe the incredible sense of loss. He had been a beacon of light for our family after losing my mom too young the year before so that made it even rougher for my baby sister. Please do seek out others who understand your loss and take care of both yourself and your SO. Also wth toward your boss and colleagues. It’s not that difficult to be kind in the face of grief even if you don’t know what to say.

    10. NL*

      I am so, so sorry that you are going through this. Your manager is a terrible human being; I am not certain that you can recover your previous relationship with her. I have dealt with miscarriage myself–I had a missed miscarriage in my first pregnancy and a very early natural miscarriage in my second–and I have found that reactions to miscarriage vary wildly. The support that people want after miscarriage also varies wildly. Only my manager, who is a woman around the same age as me and generally awesome, knew about my first pregnancy, and she was extremely sympathetic. I wouldn’t have wanted to talk about it with any of my other coworkers. So your coworkers who are ignoring you are not great–but they may also be behaving in the way that they would want to be treated. If you can reframe their behavior as expressing what they would want in your circumstances, maybe that would help?

      Your manager’s comments lead me to believe that she would not be helpful on this front, but is there anyone in the office that can send around an email just explaining what happened and how coworkers can best support you? Someone in my office had a stillborn baby, and a very carefully worded email went out to everyone who might come into contact with her explaining what happened and that she didn’t want to discuss it at all, full stop, and DO NOT ASK ABOUT THE BABY.

      On a personal note, my third pregnancy was successful–I now have a toddler–and I am pregnant again, and things seem to be going okay (still first trimester but we have seen a heartbeat). Just wanted to leave you with some hope! I hope you have supportive loved ones outside of work who are taking care of you. It’s such a rough time, and I’m sorry that your coworkers are making it more difficult.

    11. Ann Furthermore*

      I am so very sorry for your loss and what you’re going through.

      I can’t offer any excuses for your boss. I’m completely floored by what she said to you. With your other co-workers, it could be that they just don’t know what to say, or don’t know if they should say anything, or they don’t know if you want to talk about it, and so they end up doing nothing, which makes them look boorish and insensitive.

      I agree with whoever suggested working from home for a little while, but if you do that, try not to stay too isolated, and do something nice for yourself. Plan lunch with a friend, or go get a pedicure over your lunch break or something.

    12. Muriel Heslop*

      I am so sorry. This is awful.

      As someone who suffered two miscarriages (both of them occurring at the office), I can say: it doesn’t have to be this way. Your boss? Seriously? What is wrong with her? Is her behavior something you can really overlook even with time?

      You ask, “how do I get back there?” You have a new normal. I am glad you are taking some time before deciding if this is a place you want to stay.

      Sending you good wishes and lots of light.

    13. AFRC*

      I am so so sorry about your loss and situation. Do you have a competent HR department and/or Employee Assistance/Counseling Program? I would definitely loop them into what is going on, and ask for advice. HR may also be able to help talk to your manager and give you advice about dealing with coworkers. At the very least, take a few personal/sick days/FMLA. This is too much for y0u to deal with, and you should absolutely put your own emotions and mental health first. A clearer head and heart might help you figure out how to deal with the problem. Best wishes to you and please keep us updated if you feel comfortable doing so.

    15. Cam*

      I agree that if you have an HR or maybe office manager, see if you can talk to them about what kind of support would be helpful to you right now. It’s okay to say that a card signed by your co-workers would mean a lot to you. It’s okay to want to 100% avoid all baby conversations. It’s okay to want to talk about your experience. It’s okay to tell HR that you feel like your co-workers are avoiding you because they don’t know what to say, but this really appreciate it if they said some kind words instead. Grief scares people, so I have a feeling that your co-workers are reacting out of fear, not cruelty. It doesn’t make it any better what you’re going through, but an email from HR could help them understand how to respond. If you don’t have HR, I’d say your manager, but she seems like a piece of work so not her. If there’s a go to person for handling birthday cards and parties, they could be a good choice for this chat, since they are used to getting cards passed around the office or money collected for a gift.

    16. Observer*

      My sympathies.

      1. I do think your boss is an idiot rather than trying to hurt you. In the short term, it doesn’t help, but in the long term is should help repair the relationship somewhat.

      2. People probably don’t know what to say. Also, they are probably confused as to what actually happened – most people have zero idea of how traumatic this can be, and your coming back so soon inadvertently sends the wrong message, further confusing (and probably upsetting) some people. A lot of people either think “Oh my gosh. She’s probably barely holding it together. Stay away from her, rather than provoking an awful reaction!” or “Did she just have an abortion?! Doesn’t she care?!?! I just can’t!!”

      If you have at least one or two people who you have a good relationship with, perhaps you can speak to them and tell them something like “I know that people probably want to give me my space and also don’t know what to say. But right now, I really need work to be normal, because it’s pretty much the only thing that keeps me from thinking about the baby I lost.”

      3. Work from home if you can. If you can’t take unpaid time off (or cancel a vacation, even if you have to lose the tickets). You NEED the time off for both physical and emotional reasons. I’m not talking months, but a few days, at least.

    17. H.C.*

      So sorry for your loss and hard times.

      I get that some people don’t know how to respond and would prefer to avoid the discussion altogether. Or alternatively, if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, they are trying to give you space and didn’t want you to relive that moment.

      However, it is odd that the vast majority of co-worker didn’t offer sympathies. Did your manager or someone else send a mass email about your situation with a request to respect your privacy during this difficult time? (which can be misinterpreted by your colleagues as ignoring you.)

      That being said, what your manager said was mind boggling – even if it came from a place of ignorance rather than malice. Her reproductive choice have nothing in common with your unfortunate situation, and lumping them together is an unbelievably ridiculous & horrifying case of comparing apples to oranges.

      As for how to move forward, I second the others’ advice, request to work from home if possible and if your finances allow for it, do take some time off -even if unpaid- for grieving and self-care (and on that note, check if your workplace offers paid bereavement leave). And lastly, when you do feel comfortable for it, I would talk to your manager about inappropriate her remarks were.

    18. Sophia in the DMV*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I’ve had a missed miscarriage at 12 weeks and it was devastating. *Hugs* Can you take some leave?

    19. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds to me like your boss is still processing her own loss and her own view of that loss.

      Her talking points still suck, though.

      We don’t get to pick how people console us. Some people try and fumble. Some people don’t try at all. And some people send flowers and cards, this last group are some of the ones who get it.

      You know, if we spend time thinking about the ones who should console us and fail, we could have spent that time thinking about the ones who got it right.
      One of the components of grief is anger. And it’s pretty normal to find things that tick us off when we are in grief.You are perfectly correct in being ticked at your boss. But we can’t stop there because stopping there does not help you.

      Hopefully, you do not work over the weekend so that gives you a moment to think about what you would like to do. Maybe you can go out and start to rake up the area where you plan on putting that garden. Maybe you can check out the sites recommended here. Hopefully you can get some extra rest because there is the physical side of this story where your body has been super taxed. A tired body does not help with one’s thinking/emotional processes. And of course, my favorite thing to say, is learn a little about grief, the stages of grief, the symptoms of grief and so on. No, it will not make you less sad but it will help you to understand what your mind and heart are doing because you will have an idea of what the process is.

      As others have said, this is your new normal. The world is going to look different to you and that is to be expected. When we face a huge sadness our lives and our thinking changes. It’s supposed to change. I always say no life, no matter however brief is ever a waste. People change our lives when they enter our lives and they change our lives again when they leave. And your little one has done this, s/he has forever changed your life and your thinking. Tell your heart that you know you will love your little one forever. This love is part of your new normal.

      I am sorry for your loss.

    21. Chaordic One*

      Your manager is truly a jerk. (I can’t seem to come up with an appropriate word.) I don’t know what to say about your coworkers. I’m truly flabbergasted.

      Be good to yourself and allow yourself time to grieve. If you can afford it at all, taking unpaid time off for yourself would be worth it.

    22. TheLazyB*

      I am so, so very very sorry. I had a missed miscarriage too. They suck and it took me the best part of a year and a lot of time off work to recover. I was off for three months immediately afterwards and it wasn’t long enough; if I’d taken more time off I probably wouldn’t have needed to take later periods of 4 then 6 weeks off. But YMMV. Some people are better being back at work.

      With me it was my friendships that didn’t last; work was OK. If you have decent friends please lean on them.

      I’m so sorry. Thinking of you and hoping your recovery goes well. I wish you didn’t have to go through this :(

  65. Zathras*

    Advice for dealing with a disorganized manager with no boundaries or respect for other people’s time?

    My job is sort-of-IT support for university researchers. I’m nominally 9-5, but in practice I’m often there until 7 or later after eating lunch at my desk. It’s practically SOP at this point for my boss to come in at 4:50pm with a request that needs to be completed right this moment before I go home because the researcher supposedly needs it yesterday. I’ll stay late and make it happen… and then it sits completely untouched for a week. Sometimes it’s not even a task that keeps me late – my boss will just come in right when I’m wrapping up, for a “quick question” that always takes an hour to answer, usually because I have to explain a number of things again that I explained last time there was a question.

    Basically EVERYTHING is an emergency with this person. I’ve tried asking “Can it wait until tomorrow?” but I get passive-aggressive answers like “well, I guess if you REALLY need to leave, it’s OK to wait” – said in a tone that implies that I am being completely unreasonable. I’ve tried asking for help prioritizing, but it tends to go like this:
    BOSS: “Your top priority is A.”
    ME: “OK, but that means I can only get A and maybe B done this week, and C will definitely have to wait until next week.”
    BOSS: “No, no, we need A, B, and C right away.” And then the next day, “Why isn’t D done already? Why are you working on A?” where D is something I’ve never heard of before, or I was told to let someone else handle.

    I like the work and I’m fine staying late on short notice when it’s truly needed, but it is incredibly frustrating to be sacrificing my time for things that my boss could easily have asked me for last week, or worse, things that it turns out nobody actually wanted in the first place.

    Here’s a recent example – in an unscheduled meeting my boss called at 4:30pm on Friday, I came up with a solution to a lack-of-resources issue supposedly faced by a team we support. I was rewarded for this ingenuity by being asked to deploy it right that moment. I stayed until after 8pm, with my boss hovering over my shoulder asking “how’s it going? are you done?” I handed it off, then ended up working Saturday afternoon/evening from home to troubleshoot an unexpected issue they found when they tested it… and it turned out, no one was actually able to start using it until the following Thursday, because the research team didn’t have their ducks in a row yet. The kicker is, the lack-of-resources issue was temporary – we could have saved ourselves all that trouble by telling the team they had to wait until next Friday when more resources became available.

    For what it’s worth this person lacks any boundaries in other ways too (starting political discussions in the office, asking personal questions about people’s religion or family life, once told an intern they had gotten fat, etc).

    I’m pretty even-tempered but I’m getting to the point where I am somteimes letting my frustration show too much. Long term, I know I need to leave, but I like the actual work and I’m learning a lot – for context I have been there just over a year, and it’s my first technical job after getting my master’s. I think sticking it out at least another 6 months would be a good idea.

    So how do I push back more effectively to protect my sanity in the meantime?

    (Sorry, this was longer and rantier than I intended, but I wanted to paint a full picture…)

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Can you send emails to document? “Boss, just summing up our conversation yesterday. You mentioned that my main priority was A, but that B and C were also important. Here’s how many hours I expect A, B, and C to take, and when I expect to have each finished. If you add something else, all of those would be pushed back.”

      And then when boss changes the game, sum it up in an email again. “By adding D, here’s how it affects A, B, and C. Or we could go with what you said last week and let Persephone handle D, which would let me keep A, B, and C on schedule.”

      I don’t know if it’d help much (she’s clearly out of line), but at least it’s something concrete to do!

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        Maybe OP could set up some kind of shared “Projects This Week” document/whiteboard/other documentation: physically put things on the list and demonstrate what priority they are. Demarcate “Here are things that I can do this week, here is what will happen if I add something to the top of my list, here are the things that I have been told about and that I am currently working on”. Emails can be ignored/not read/”you must have misunderstood”-ed – being able to point to a list and say “This is what you wrote yesterday” is easier to enforce.

    2. Murphy*

      I think you need to have a sit down with your boss. Explain the kind of hours you’re working on a regular basis, and that’s untenable. The occasional night or weekend for high priority projects is to be expected sometimes, but not all of the time and certainly not for non-emergencies. Maybe discuss in general how things need to be prioritized (not specific projects) and try to get a clear sense of when things are needed when they’re given to you. Some researchers can be unreasonable or unrealistic in their expectations, so I don’t know if your boss is maybe getting outside pressure to get things done early.

      Obviously this is easier said that done, but maybe take him at his word when he says it’s OK to wait, even if he uses that tone when he says it, and just leave. Or if he starts a meeting at 4:30, tell him you have to leave in an hour. But I understand if you can’t do that easily. Your boss sounds awful. I’m sorry.

    3. Artemesia*

      to me this would be a fool me once situation. i.e. stay late and then watch something sit unused for a week and the next time there was a rush request, I would say ‘I have something scheduled tonight and can’t work late’ I’ll have to get to it in the morning. Start doing that unless you know for sure it really HAS to be done right now. e.g. getting a grant in can be a crisis — but once you get a sense of the kinds of requests that often sit — stop jumping.

      And if you get passive aggression, take it at face value and ignore it.
      ‘oh I guess it could wait, if you really need to leave, but it is blah blah blah’
      “Thanks for understanding; I will look at it first thing in the morning.”

      If you get direct pushback ‘Dr. Jones needs this right away’ then is the moment to say

      “Last week I got a last minute request for Dr. Jones and he didn’t touch the work I did after hours for a week. The same thing happened last week with the resource request from X department. They weren’t ready to use it. I am happy to work late for a genuine emergency but not to work late to produce material that the recipients are not even going to look at for several days.”

      Boundaryless people will always push boundaries until you refuse to be pushed. Obviously it requires reading the situations but start with the passive aggressive push back and resist that.

    4. Zathras*

      Thanks for the ideas and suggested wording everyone! I will try some of these.

      Something I edited out of the original post – occasionally I do manage to object to something in the moment, and my boss will say “I understand” and then repeat the original request more or less verbatim, without addressing what I just said in any way. This drives me nuts because it’s so clearly some kind of fake “active listening” tactic that’s supposed to make me feel heard, without any actual effort to listen behind it.

      1. E*

        When your boss repeats the request without listening to your response, try saying “no, that’s not what I said…” and repeat. He needs to take your feedback into consideration, even if you need to repeat a few times. Maybe throw in a joke about needing to get his hearing checked, if you think he would laugh and maybe listen better for once.

    5. Ann Furthermore*

      I would suggest standing firm when these last minute “emergencies” come in. Next time you ask if something can wait until the next day and you get the “Well, if you REALLY need to leave I guess it’s OK…..” business, then call your boss’s bluff and say, “OK, great. I’ll start on this first thing tomorrow. Have a good evening!” Then leave. I suspect doing that a few times will send the message that you’re not going to let yourself get pushed around.

    6. Althea*

      First, I had a boss like this, and she was not fixable by any means I was able to devise. Sorry.

      Here are some things that were nominally effective.

      She once called me at 4:40 to discuss a detailed issue. When I told her 10 minutes later I had to leave to catch a train, she said I needed to be willing to work longer hours. I fired back immediately, because I was pissed, “Excuse me. I get up 3 days a week at 5:30 to take calls from 6-7:30 BEFORE I come into the office and work a full day. I work late multiple times per week, and all I need to do to stay late is to have 1 hour’s notice to tell my husband so we can rearrange our errands after work. Today I did not have an hours notice.” She was genuinely abashed.

      I regularly got the response that EVERYTHING is a priority, even when I asked her to choose between A, B, and C. Instead I fell back to the bureaucrat’s defense: do nothing. That is, I would work on whatever I thought really was a priority, or that experience told me she would ask about in the near future. For everything else, especially any new ideas she dreamed up, I would just agree to work on it, do a couple of small things related to it, and then wait. Half the time she would forget about it entirely. If she did ask about it, I would share a couple tidbits of work I had done, and then I would move it up my priority list. Sometimes I would guess incorrectly, and she wanted to know why X wasn’t already done. I’d just reply that I’d been working on Y, and it was a priority to get done. (If I felt super-plucky, I’d tell her that she wasn’t able to give me a sense of which thing, X or Y, was a priority, so I had to choose myself and there are only so many hours in a day – but that was too combative most of the time.)

      There was never a happy time, though. It’s a stressful way to work. I discussed with my husband SO MANY strategies to try to fix her ways, with no luck. And several times, I could think to myself – if she doesn’t like this perfectly reasonable way I’m doing things, she can fire me. It did let me know how valuable I was.

      I think the important thing here is your mindset. Just keep telling yourself that YOU are the manager of your priorities, because your manager can’t do it. And tell your manager what you accomplish, and all your great outcomes. If he’s smart, he’ll recognize your value and let you run your own schedule and set of priorities. And you’ll get to work on whatever projects are the most important and most interesting.

      1. BRR*

        I have a boss like this and she’s not fixable either. I think it’s either not fixable at all because it’s just how certain people operate or it would require a huge organizational shift in culture which is unlikely. The best you can really do it develop methods to keep your sanity.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Agreeing this is not fixable.
          This is a person who is in a constant panic. Some people need one crisis after another to keep themselves going, they can’t function if things are at a sane pace.

          Some people just plain enjoy the drama, even if it is synthetic drama.

          Sadly a person like this has no ability to console themselves and they do not want you to console them, for whatever reason.

          I have worked with some very nervous people and talked them down off the ceiling then established a good, solid working relationship. Your boss does not sound like I would be able to help her.
          Additionally, one of her goals is to see you upset and frantic also. It makes her feel validated. This is very important to know.

          All you can do is set boundaries before your health goes in the latrine. Set boundaries and stick to them.

    7. BRR*

      Ugh my sympathies. I am in a similar situation. Other people have given some great advice. I would have a sit down with your manager and say there have been a number of projects that were called an emergency but weren’t actually needed right away. Can you talk directly with the people making the requests? Both to dig a little with them and see if it’s truly an emergency or if there’s something that you can do quickly that will tide them over. Can you establish lead times with the people you support? If you want X, it needs this amount of time.

  66. FriYAY!*

    I accepted a verbal job offer earlier this week but haven’t received an official written offer. Unfortunately, I found out last night that my father who lives 400 miles away has advanced cancer. It makes sense for me to stay at my current employer due to their generous time off and flexibility which will allow me to travel to spend time with my family as much as possible.
    How bad am I going to look backing out on the offer?

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      I think if you explain this will look really reasonable, especially since this happen before you signed anything in writing. Family comes first! I wish your dad a quick recovery if it’s possible.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      So sorry about your father. I don’t think you’ll look bad at all if you tell them what’s going on, especially if you lean more toward “I wouldn’t be able to succeed in this role if I changed jobs right now” instead of “I get more time off and flexibility in my current job.”

    3. orchidsandtea*

      I don’t think it’ll look bad. We’re all humans, not workerbots. When family needs you, you do what you must.

      It might be worth thinking about what you’d say if they counteroffered with time off and flexibility to help care for him. Not because they necessarily could or would, but just so you have time to think about how much and what components would make the difference for you.

      I’m so sorry to hear about your dad. Wishing him good healing.

    4. Dangerfield*

      Not bad at all. I had someone resign four days into a job because of a similar situation. Life happens. All the best to your father.

  67. Rebecca*

    Today is my 14th year anniversary at my job, and the last one. I’ll probably be giving my formal 2 week’s notice on Monday. Keeping fingers crossed that the criminal background check clears today! Pre employment physical and drug screen is done as well.

    The last 5+ years have been hard. The past 2 1/2 years have been pretty miserable, with an unmanageable workload. In my case, it’s leaving a manager, not so much the job. The job I can do, and I do it well. I just couldn’t deal with my manager any longer. Her mantra is “if you don’t like it here, go work someplace else”. So I am. I just hope she doesn’t flip out when I tell her this is the case. Once, she found out I went on a job interview and yelled at me, telling me I was disloyal and family didn’t do that to family. I already have my computer cleaned up, most of my personal items taken home, etc. If you open any of my desk drawers, they’re mostly empty! My desk was always tidy, so to the casual observer, it appears as business as usual.

    I am sad, happy, excited, and anxious all at the same time! It’s only the second time in my life that I’ve had to give notice and go to another job, so wish me luck!

    2. Dawn*

      “I just hope she doesn’t flip out when I tell her this is the case.”

      Oh no but you do! Then you can play the part of the Strong Independent Woman Who Doesn’t Need This Job and channel your inner Dolly Parton (or Julia Sugarbaker, if need be) as you sing RuPaul’s “Supermodel” in your head while prancing to your car on your last day!

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        “But you said that if I didn’t like it here, I should go work someplace else! I’m only doing what you told me to do! I thought this would make you happy! Do you mean I was wrong, and you weren’t instructing me to leave after all? Oh no, what have I done!”

    3. LawCat*

      Congrats on the new position!!

      I don’t have the links, but if you search in the archives, Alison has some really good language for situations where you put in your two weeks notice, but end of needing to leave sooner to preserve your well-being when the toxic manager flips out on you.

  68. GOG11*

    An office etiquette question. I’m an admin assistant and I work in closed office, but it is a space where three other areas converge and it functions as a copy room for other staff members.

    I’m pretty decent at dealing with people coming in and out, making copies, etc., but there are times when people run into each other coming and going and I have up to 3 different conversations going on in my office, most of which aren’t usually work related. A couple of times I’ve picked up the phone and announced “I’m so sorry, but I need to make a phone call…” and before I can finish everyone apologizes and clears out. This tells me that they understand how difficult it would be to work with everyone talking, but they aren’t really mindful of it in a more general sense (at least not enough to say, hey, let’s take this to my office/out in the hall/into the conveniently adjacent conference room).

    I don’t want to find a phone call to make or pretend to make a phone call whenever folks decide to camp out and talk about their weekend, reminisce about how the field they’re in used to be, vent about our employer, etc., in my office, but it’s SUPER distracting and frustrating to try to get things done with this going on.

    TL;DRWhat are my professional options for getting folks to move their conversations out of my office when things get out of hand? I’m talking 20+ minute, multi-person conversations, not every time someone dares to say hi to someone else in here. I get that the fact that my office is where other spaces converge and it being a bit of a common area makes this happen (or, in other words, I’m not in a private office and I can’t expect people to behave as if my office is a private office), but it doesn’t change the fact that it seriously interrupts my work and I really need a way to deal.

    1. Lillian Styx*

      You probably can’t prevent it all together, but you can be more direct about asking them to limit their convos in your space: “Hey guys, mind moving this to the break room? It’s getting hard to concentrate and I’ve gotta get this done today”

    2. Xarcady*

      I don’t quite understand about the office being where spaces converge, or why that encourages people to be in your space. The copier, I understand.

      So, first off, could the copier be moved elsewhere, which would reduce the number of people entering your office?

      Or is there somewhere else you can be moved to? You might want to address this issue with your supervisor. Keep to the point that your work is interrupted several times a day by people making conversation while they make copies, and it is affecting your work.

      If that’s not possible, is there any way to make your office look more like an office and less like a copy room? Keep the copy supplies in closed cabinets, rather than out in the open? Look at other offices in your company and see if there’s any furniture you can bring in that reads more “office” than “copy room.” Anything you could put on the walls or your desk that indicates this is someone’s work space, and the copier is incidental to that.

      Beyond that, I think you just need to get more comfortable with speaking up. “Hey, could you please take the conversation out to the hall? Thanks!” Friendly and cheerful and upbeat.

      1. GOG11*

        Re: spaces converging – my office leads into three different areas, so instead of someone intentionally coming into the office to make copies, they may be using it as a walk through to get to the other two spaces. This is when people run into each other and stay put and chat instead of continuing on their way.

        Unfortunately, most other admins here are located with the copier. When I requested to be moved to another office for medical reasons (was being exposed to things I’m allergic to and it was triggering respiratory problems) that request was denied. The powers that be don’t know or care or put much stock in the level of distraction having admins work in common/work areas.

        I do think the key would be speaking up, but I just wasn’t sure that it was OK to do so and how to phrase things.

        1. Xarcady*

          Are there multiple doors to your office? One solution might be to close off all but one door. Put desks in front of the doors if necessary. That way, at the very least, you will reduce the number of people passing through the office. Which would most likely lead to fewer interruptions.

  69. Pwyll*

    So, in reviewing the benefits for my new job, I found this interesting tidbit:

    “As a [Job], you will receive x weeks of paid vacation, pro-rated in your first year. On January 1 of each year, you will have the opportunity to purchase from the company up to an additional week of vacation.”

    I have literally never heard of “buying” from the company vacation time. Has anyone else heard of this?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I have heard of this, but only from one coworker who knew it was a thing *somewhere* and wanted it to be implemented here.

      1. FriYAY!*

        My mom works at a company that allows her to purchase additional vacation time. She really likes having that option.

        1. GOG11*

          I’m curious about how this works. Couldn’t you just take unpaid time and it would be the same thing? How much does a person pay to be paid to take time off? Or am I thinking about it wrong?

          1. Pwyll*

            In my case it’s a truly massive company. If you elect to take the extra week at the beginning of the year, they reduce your gross annual salary that year by 1 week’s worth of pay.

            This place has a huge bureaucracy, it seems. So, it’s probably structured this way to ensure people can’t complain about unfair treatment if they aren’t given unpaid time off but someone else is. (Though I’m sure that still happens).

            I’ve just never heard of it before, but it’s an interesting approach.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I never have either. Most of the companies I worked for were small and I barely got any vacation at all. My current job lets us go in the hole a certain amount (it’s paid), but we have to earn it back in subsequent pay periods before we start accumulating paid time again. I like this policy because it covers you if something happens, but it’s still fair.

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            At my employer, taking time off without pay would impact your benefits (as in, you’d only earn 3/4 of them if you only worked 3 of 4 weeks in a particular month). Buying a week of vacation time, if it were an option, wouldn’t have the same impact.

          3. chickabiddy*

            I don’t know how the pay is structured, but it would be much easier for me to give up 2% of each paycheck than to have an unexpected week with no paycheck, so that would be one advantage of deciding in advance to purchase the extra week.

    2. Jubilance*

      I worked for a company that used to do this, though they stopped the practice before I started there. Apparently it was very popular, but created a liability for the company, which is why they did away with it.

    3. Chat Noir*

      Yes, my husband is able to do this. He currently gets 4 weeks and he buys 5 more days. They offer this during the benefits enrollment period in the fall. I forget how much it costs. He’s been doing this for a while, because I have had more vacation time than him. This has allowed us to have roughly the same amount of vacation days so we can plan for vacations. My company has just switched to the unlimited time off model, so that will be a bit of an adjustment for me.

    4. NW Mossy*

      My company used to offer it and I loved it! So sad to have that taken away, because it was one of my favorites.

    5. ArtK*

      Assuming that the cost of buying that week is the same as your salary for that week, then what they’re really doing is offering up to 1 week of unpaid time off, but dressing it up in fancy clothes.

      1. Meeeeeeeee*

        But allowing you to keep your full benefits during tht time, which is key. Also, at least at my company which offers this, for whatever you don’t use you get the money back at the end of the year, so it’s risk free.

    6. Bad Candidate*

      My old company did this. You basically were paying yourself to take a day off. It was no different than taking an unpaid day off except we weren’t allowed to do that. I did it the year I got married just in case, others did it if they were having a baby that year. A LOT of people I knew used it as a savings account since if you didn’t use it, it was paid out right before Christmas. I thought that was kind of dumb, I said put that money in a savings account at least then it’s earning interest for you and not the company. No one ever listened.

    7. Elkay*

      It’s fairly common in my area. The cost is spread over the year so you lose ~2% of your pay each month and where I am there is a tax benefit because the money is taken at source.

    8. H.C.*

      My government job has this too. Fortunately, we can buy our extra days off with our benefit allowance before deducting from salary.

  70. AyBeeCee*

    This seems like a simple question but I can’t decide how to word something for my resume.

    For my job there’s two positions so there’s me and a coworker. My previous coworker moved on to a new job with another organization and I’ve been in this position for almost five years so I got to assist with the hiring process and now I’m assisting with training the new person. The training period for this position is very long – it takes a year to be considered trained and two years to be fully versed it everything the position entails – and usually one topic is covered per month. My boss will take the new person and do a sit down training, going over all the materials in depth. After that the new person then gets priority on all [topic] assignments while I work on everything else they haven’t learned yet. Since we sit next to each other and our boss is frequently in meetings or dealing with her other employees, I’m the first resource for any questions so aside from the sit-downs I’d say I’m overseeing 80-90% of the day-to-day training.

    How the heck do I convey this in a resume? Everything I come up with leaves room to assume that I’m just kind of here but not an active participant.

    2. Pwyll*

      How about something like: “coached new employees, including review and troubleshooting of their work throughout their 1 year training program”

  71. Kit*

    Preface: I love my manager but I think she goofed here.

    One of the HR folks spotted me climbing into my department’s ridiculous storage area and reported me to my manager for it. She told my manager that no one should be standing up there and that as supervisor I was a bad influence, and my manager told her she would talk to me about it.

    Now, she did talk to me about it, but in a “haha HR has no idea what we do” way, because while our storage area is ridiculous (you have to climb over a stair railing into a converted ceiling), it’s been that way for years, and climbing into it is not any more dangerous than our actual job duties (we are butchers).

    Why didn’t she just explain that to the HR lady? Now I feel like I’m going to get in trouble every time I need something from storage, even though I’m doing something I’m expected and required to do!

    My managers take is “don’t worry about it”, but I am worried about it. Wat do?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Send her an email asking for guidance on how to move forward with the storage area given HR’s concern about you climbing into it the other day. Maybe recommend some alternative storage areas, or recommend that the department start looking into one.

      Chances are the HR person isn’t out to get anyone and simply felt obligated to report an “unsafe act”. But if there’s any chance it could come back to bite you, you’ll at least have that email.

      1. Kit*

        I don’t want the storage area changed. Right now it’s above our department and any change would necessarily be much farther away.

        I understand that the email is about having documentation, but I think that would be weirdly adversarial given that my boss and I work side-by-side all day.

        I also don’t have any problem with HR’s actions, I just think the opportunity to correct the misconception is now gone and any attempt to do so now will be weird.

    2. Fiona the Lurker*

      Logically, if people aren’t supposed to go up there, nothing should be stored there. OTOH if things are stored there, people need to go up and get them. If HR don’t want anyone going up there, maybe they can come up with alternative suggestions for storage facilities? It’s ridiculous banning people from doing [thing] if there’s literally no other way they can do their job.

      1. Kit*

        Yes! It seems self-evident to me, but it is true that HR never takes a close look at what we do, though their office is located in our department.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Not enough info, but from a risk management point of view I’d agree with the HR person’s first part. Is there any other way to get up there? Why do you have to climb over the rails? It actually sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

      1. Kit*

        It is moronic, but the storage area is actually two bulkheads above the department that have had plywood walkways added. They are to either side of the staircase up to my (and HR’s) office. The only way to reach them is by vaulting over the railing. The most commonly accessed items are reachable from the stair landing, but the storage area extends beyond and I have to climb in at least twice a week. It is no more dangerous than cutting bones on a meat saw, which I also do daily.

        If the storage area were changing due to this, that would be one thing. If I were actually breaking a rule, that would be another. But my boss pretended I was breaking a rule when I was actually doing something that I am required to do (and don’t mind doing, even though it’s silly). Just to avoid a discussion! And she wants me to proceed as normal, even though this incident has validated the HR lady’s impression that going in the storage area is against the rules!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Go back to your boss and ask, “HR is now aware of our storage space. I have been put on notice not to go up there. So I can’t get caught, I will be fired for disobeying instructions. What are we going to do when HR finds out people are still going up there?”

  72. Case of the Mondays*

    I’m late to yesterday’s sick day discussion. After reading about how people learned to not take sick days in school and how hard it was to make up missed lectures, it gave me an idea. Schools should allow students to skype or Facetime (or other streaming service) while sick so they can hear the lecture but stay home in bed in their pajamas.

    1. Olive*

      I think this is a great idea for actual sick people (maybe more for those with longer-term problems?), but I also think there’s a decently legit slippery-slope argument to be had here, in terms of people just not showing up and Skyping in.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Eh. Skyping in is still showing up, IMO. I would LOVE for more schools to leverage technology this way – all the benefits of a traditional classroom, without the limitations of geography. Or pants.

      2. Observer*

        Who really cares? Either it doesn’t make a difference if the person is in the room, in which case who cares if people are skyping vs being in the room. If there is a real reason that people need to be physically present, then it’s job of the teacher / school to make it make a difference.

    2. Heather*

      Sadly, this is a much bigger technological undertaking than you’d imagine. I’m not sure most schools would be suitably set up for it. It sounds simple, but frequently isn’t!

    3. Bad Candidate*

      I finished my degree online (at a real, private 100 year old university) and even then we had problems with professors typing (hard) on a laptop while using the laptop’s built in microphone for a lecture, several who didn’t understand how screen sharing really worked, and many who just couldn’t use the technology. I understand a lot were adjunct and were teaching at several schools with varying types of technology and not all were teaching techie classes (plenty were though) but while it sounds like a good idea, in practice, it’s not really.

    4. dawbs*

      But, to what extent are you giving yourself permission to be ‘off sick’ if you have to be ‘on’?

      I mean, if I’m skyping so the instructor can see me, I have to pay attention (so, not sleeping, not medicated)–so instead of doing what I NEED to do while sick–lying in bed, medicated, doing 0% of my work load, I”m lying in bed doing 20% of my workload. And as a lot of people who deals with chronic health crap will tell you (<anyone familiar with 'spoon theory'), 20% still takes it out of you and prevents you from relaxing and healing in a way 0% does not (it takes spoons)

      For some kinds of sick, it probably works, but, realistically, it also requires these students (and workers) to share a lot about what kind of sick they are too–because listening to a skype lecture with a mild sniffles vs. listening w/ a migraine are different animals.

      I'd love for there to b be more choices though. An ability to choose the amount of presence.

  73. Larina*

    My team is struggling with a new hire that is taking an unusually long time to train. He constantly disobeys instructions in an attempt to “show initiative” and when corrected on errors he’s making, he doesn’t change his habits and instead talks like a politician saying things like “Oh, I recognize that X is so important for this job” or “that’s exactly why I’m being so careful with my work.” It’s pretty obvious he’s not actually being careful, or that his level of careful is far below par for the team.

    How do you get someone who doesn’t listen to actually learn? Are there resources out there I’m missing? Is this guy a lost cause for us?

    1. Dawn*

      Are you his manager? If so, have you had a Come to Jesus meeting with him yet? If not, that needs to happen and it needs to happen today- this guy must be made aware that he’s behind the curve and if he doesn’t buckle down and stop being such an excuse-filled bag of wind then [consequences].

      1. Larina*

        Not his manager. Some of my responsibilities include training, and my manager just wants us to give him more time to improve.

    2. Artemesia*

      You fire him or don’t let him pass probation because ‘he turned out not to be a good fit for the job’ and hire someone else. The longer you put up with this , the more likely you are to be stuck with it. It is always harder to fire people as time goes by. This guy needs to be clearly told what the issues are and if he doesn’t turn it around, let go.

    3. Jules the First*

      I’d reply with ‘Well, Wakeen, I really need you to be even more careful, because you are still making too many mistakes with X. Can you walk me through the process step by step so we can figure out where you are getting derailed?’

      Then you have hard evidence you can take to your manager if that doesn’t solve the problem. I know it’s hard to believe but he may genuinely not be seeing the bit he’s having trouble with as important.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      One time I asked the boss to take over the training so she could see first hand where the problems are.

      Meanwhile let him know that right now he should not be showing initiative. Since he is in training his focus needs to be on following instructions. Showing initiative is not appropriate at this stage and it will work against him as people will assume he cannot follow basic instructions. Yes, actually say it this way. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

      Correcting errors is a huge deal in any job. People have to be able to understand there is an error and then know how to fix it. So when he gives one of his standard replies, tell him that he needs to stop staying that. And then ask him what his plan is to make sure he does not make this mistake again.

      You can start saying things like, “I have seen you have this problem before, so we have talked about this one. What did we say needed to happen here?”
      Here you a) point out that he is still doing this and b) ask an open ended question that requires thoughtful input.

      Where possible have him present work to you that is completed AND that he has double checked. Make note of the mistakes you find and give the results to your boss. When I trained people, I gave them back their work and told them to redo it. I only had to do that once and they caught on.

      IF he does not change what he is doing, then yes, he is a lost cause. If your boss agrees is another thing.

    5. Honeybee*

      Has anyone told him straight to his face that you don’t want him to be innovative/take initiative, you want him to do the work as written/instructed? One of my mentors at my job told me that when I first started, and it was a good thing, because I wasn’t sure whether innovation/initiative was expected of me at that stage or not.

  74. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I am wondering about PTO, and also values, I guess.

    My parents bought a house on the Gulf of Mexico, near Mobile, Alabama. They want my (same-gender) spouse and I to come for Thanksgiving. It would be good to see them, but it would mean my wife either uses the last of her PTO in November or has to work crazy hours that pay period, to flex so as to get the Monday after Thanksgiving off.

    And I guess I’m not sure if it would be a good use of time off, either, since I’m worried we might have a really unpleasant experience there because we’re married, to each other, and never hide it. My parents have gotten sonewhat better at accepting us, but I have a feeling we would be on our own, should we run into any homophobia. Simple stuff, like walking on the beach holding hands, or asking for the “family” pass for the weekend at the country club gym, makes me anxious to think about.

    Or am I overreacting? I usually never get nervous, but I think that’s because I live in a very blue city in a very blue state. (And I apologize for causing anyone here to think of politics!)

    1. bb-great*

      I think it’s hard to guess what the reception would be like until you see it for yourselves. Would it be possible to visit them some other time instead? Maybe it would feel less loaded if it was just a weekend rather than a holiday, and one you had to use PTO for. Then you could test the waters so to speak in a more low key way.

      1. sole*

        This is a really great idea – shorter vacation, no added holiday stress, see/experience the community they’ve moved to. It’s 100% fair to say you can’t visit on Thanksgiving because of work and time off through the end of the year. And if you do have any issues, it would give you a good sense of how your parents would handle it/support you. Best of luck, sorry you’re feeling stress!

    2. Anon for this*

      There are LGBT people and allies in the south, too. It might not be what you expect.

      Try asking around any forums specific to the area. You should be able to get honest answers from LGBT people living there that way.

    3. It Might Be Me*

      Sorry for the late reply. You may want to see my comment above about living in Alabama. I’ve never had any comments here and I’m pretty out. I’m now single and all that means is the attempts to fix me up is amusing as people debate “who is a lesbian”. Pageant participation will get more head shaking then showing livestock around here. They aren’t mutually exclusive activities. The Gulf Coast is more diverse with snowbirds descending in the winter.

  75. DramaLlamaOnFriday*

    This morning I got an email from a colleague who is known to be a gossip. It was a forward of an email another colleague’s wife had sent to the gossip (they were roommates in college I think). The email says that she has proof her husband having an affair with another colleague and she is going to divorce him. The colleague he is allegedly cheating with is pregnant. The email was sent to multiple people. Ever since it was sent the alleged cheaters have been in his office with the door closed. No one knows what is going on and the managers went into their own meeting after it was sent out. Now everyone is talking about it because the news spread like wildfire and people are even on the phone with other locations talking about it. It’s definitely made an otherwise boring day exciting, though I am keeping my head down and staying out of it as much as possible.

    1. bb-great*

      Wow, I can’t believe the gossip actually sent that email around!! I would be firing her for sure. Please keep us updated!

        1. bb-great*

          Even if you wanted to gossip about it you could do it verbally which is much more subtle. Now she’s just blatantly stirring the pot and disrupting the workplace. I wonder, if she and the wife are close, if it’s out of solidarity or if she really does just love causing drama.

    4. Artemesia*

      I don’t know what I would do about the cheaters but I know what I would do about the person who forwarded the original Email around; she would have been walked out that day with her personal effects to follow.

  76. trans at work*

    I put this up a few weeks ago, but didn’t have many replies so I’m trying again. I would really love to hear from you if you’ve transitioned at work and made the big announcement!

    Have you come out as transgender at work? If yes, what has been the biggest challenge? Who have been your strongest allies? What things took you by surprise, or didn’t happen the way you anticipated? What do you wish that you had done differently?

    Going to be facing this, soon.

    1. LadyKelvin*

      I did not come out as trangender at work, but my colleague and office mate did, so I can give you an idea of how she did it. Or rather didn’t do it. Because there was no formal coming out. She started wearing feminine clothes, asking for advice on clothing styles, hair styles, makeup, etc. On Facebook she posted about shopping for women’s clothes and (at some point) mentioned in response to a comment that she was transgender. She did ask us to use feminine pronouns and told us what her new name would be, but that was the extent of it. She just changed, and expected everyone else to act as if it was normal, because it was her new normal. Now she signs all of her emails with her new name and has a court date next week to legally change it so she can change it everywhere, and just corrects people when they use the wrong pronouns. It was a little bit awkward at first because we were all a bit surprised by it (a bit, we all thought she was gay for the first few years of working with her, but transgender made sense too) and it certainly has taken a while to get into the habit of calling her by the right pronouns and names. She gets Da-Lily a lot from me. But the reaction from most of her colleagues has been, oh! ok! As long as your happy, just tell me what to call you so we can continue working well together. Now we are in a pretty liberal field, so there isn’t to much blatant homophobia (I’m not sure that’s the correct term for transgender people, so I apologize if its wrong.) But at least that’s a perspective from your colleagues’ point of view, if it helps.

      1. Pen and Pencil*

        The word you’re looking for is transphobia! I’m glad that her transition went overall smoothly, there is so much discrimination in the trans world.

    2. Kara Zor-El*

      If you don’t get many responses here, you might want to try ask.metafilter.com. Good luck and congratulations on making the big announcement!

    3. WS*

      Seconding the request for advice, I’m going to be facing this within the next few months and I’m terrified!

    4. Lab Monkey*

      I’ve come out with mixed success in 3 jobs now (I’m nonbinary, so it’s a continuous thing as few people correctly assume my gender from my appearance). Coworkers who were already familiar with queer and trans issues were, obviously, my biggest allies. In one job, my bosses listened and really helped enforce pronouns for me, which created a culture where coworkers also corrected each other if they slipped. It’s by far the best I’ve encountered. In the other two jobs, I met a mix of HR and boss resistance with eventual, grudging acceptance and no help or respect for my pronouns.

  77. Goody Goody*

    I hated my last job, Regional sales director, not because of the work, but because the company’s owner was/is out of touch with industry norms, and maybe a bit insane. I couldn’t perform my job on par with my competition. Unfortunately, I was let go before I found something else, even though I was job searching (my old position is still open).

    After 2 months of unemployment I took a job in territory sales (always in my industry). A step down, but some work is better than no work. I figured this job would be temporary, maybe 6 months, and then move back up to a better, managerial job somewhere else

    Well, NOBODY in my industry is answering my emails and inquiries and job applications. I think I’m perceived as “washed up” even though I’m only 15 years in my industry. I’m doing very well at my new job, but it truly is a step down, with a LOT less pay, and at a smaller, less important company. My current employer, also the owner of the company, has no intention of promoting me, although she is a decent person. I’d like to get back to “full speed”. Should I keep this latest role off my resume? How can I get employers’ and recruiters’ attention when I’m in a awkward spot?

    1. Product person*

      I’d like to get back to “full speed”. Should I keep this latest role off my resume? How can I get employers’ and recruiters’ attention when I’m in a awkward spot?

      This is tricky because for your previous job a Regional sales director you don’t have a lot of accomplishments due to the issues with the owner, and now you’re in a lower position, which, combined, aren’t going to sound very attractive to hiring managers, who’ll naturally be looking for signs of accomplishments and advance in your career.

      What I’d do in your place is to do an experiment. For a couple of openings, send a resume without your current role, and see what happens. If you notice you are getting more attention, then you have your answer. Good luck!

  78. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

    Any advice on dealing with bosses you are close to feeling really sad and upset when you tell them you got another offer? I am feeling really guilty, but the honest truth is that other managers have been horrible to me for years and my bosses haven’t been able to do anything to intervene. Now one of them is saying that if I stay she will try to fix it (that’s actually never worked–lots of gas lighting at my current place of employment). She keeps asking if I’m sure I want to leave. I don’t think she’s trying to pressure me to stay, but she sort of is–then she will say–but I just want you to be happy! Are you sure you’ll be happy there? They haven’t made a counteroffer of more money I think because they know I’m going to the government and therefore am taking a pay cut (but getting vacation/sick days/pension etc none of which I have now). I am feeling really torn now and was feeling very excited, but now I think it is getting to me. I’m starting to worry–what if I’m not happy there? What if I don’t have the flexibility I thought I would? Starting to get nervous. Advice welcomed!

    1. bb-great*

      Your boss is trying to get you to stay by planting doubts in your head that you won’t be happy at the other job. But you KNOW you aren’t happy where you are, and if that situation was fixable, it would have been fixed a long time ago. Go on to the new job guilt free.

      1. Dawn*

        “if that situation was fixable, it would have been fixed a long time ago”

        Yuuuup. Think about it this way- let’s say you were renting a house, and sewage was always backing up into the bathtub every time it rained. You went to the landlord about this multiple times, and she never did anything about it, instead saying something like “well I can’t do anything”, or “well I’ll get it fixed later”, or “well it’s really not that big of a deal, why can’t you just not use the bathroom when it rains?” So you finally get fed up with it enough to go through all of the hassles of finding a new place to live and you’ve found somewhere great that you’re excited to move to. You tell your landlord, and suddenly she’s spouting stuff like “Are you *sure* you’ll like the new house better?” and “well if you stay I will try and get the sewage issue fixed”. You’d be like “HELL NO I’M NOT STAYING LADY, there’s literal poop water coming up in my bathtub on a regular basis and you ain’t done a damn thing about it!!!”

        Well, in your soon to be former job those other managers who have made your job hell are the literal poop water backing up into your bathtub, and your current boss is playing the role of the indifferent landlady. So, remind yourself of the poop water in the bathtub every time you start to feel guilty about leaving!

      3. LawCat*

        “But you KNOW you aren’t happy where you are, and if that situation was fixable, it would have been fixed a long time ago.”

        100% this! What is happening to you right now are the cries of despair from managers who have not been good to you. They’re letting other managers steamroll you and not intervening? And gas-lighting you? That’s messed up. Odds are that they can’t even comprehend/see the problem let alone try to fix it. They are only trying to fix the immediate problem for them: you leaving, but have not been willing to fix the problems that prompted you to leave. You have no reason to feel guilty. You have no reason to believe they have the capacity or authority to fix anything that has been a problem for you.

        I’ve had two past jobs where the mangers’ approach to some issues was to throw their arms up and have a whatchagonnado attitude. Then suddenly there were promises to fix some issues when I put in notice? LOL, nope. I do not believe that for a moment. One place, I transferred internally to another team, sticking to my guns even with the manager of my old team promising “I’ll fix these problems, I see the problems, don’t leave.” She was just making stuff up. That team continued to hemorrhage people because they never actually fixed those problems.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Be polite and professional, but firm. Leave.
      Nothing will ever change with that culture or it would have been done sooner. They are still trying to gaslight you by planting doubts in your head (on purpose or not). RUN while you have the chance.

    3. Artemesia*

      It is easier for her if you stay just as it was easier for her if you take it on the ear from bad managers and she does nothing to fix it. If she could fix it and didn’t then shame on her and you should be outta there; if she couldn’t fix it, why is she promising that NOW she will. Be cordial and bland and firm that you are leaving. There is always risk in change but you know that staying put will continue to be as it has been. Give yourself one of those self affirmation pep talks in the mirror each morning and start your new adventure.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “I’m starting to worry–what if I’m not happy there? What if I don’t have the flexibility I thought I would? Starting to get nervous. Advice welcomed!”

      Happiness. Decide that you are going to be happy there. And if you are not happy there you will move on because you owe that to yourself.

      Flexibility. There may be enough right about this job that a little less flexibility may not phase you in the least. Or it could be that there is flexibility you just have to learn how to use it the way you need it.

      Nervousness before a new job is normal. Decide that being nervous will help you stay hyper-alert so you will be your top notch self. Decide to let your nervousness work for you.

      Remember your boss is playing her best card. And her best card is to make sure you feel doubtful, upset, etc. If this is the only card she has then she has nothing.

      1. Considering becoming a government lawyer*

        Thank you. This is really helpful. I think it’s that I know I’m good at what I’m doing now, but I’m not even totally sure what I’ll be doing in the new job (it’s a new position for them). I know I’m good at being a lawyer, but it’s going to be a big change and it’s nerve-wracking.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Find out what they want and what they need. This can be two different lists so eyes wide open.

          Get them what they need first then get them what they want second.

          It’s okay to be nervous. They are probably nervous, too. They want to keep you, they want to have things set up for you and so on.

          Go into “one day at a time” mode. Just take today and do your best. Go home, eat a decent meal and tell yourself as you fall asleep, “I did my best today and tomorrow I will do my best again.”
          They may cut you slack because the position is new. This may work for you in ways you can’t foresee. They may allow you voice in how the position plays out in reality. This is a privilege, grab the opportunity. Speak up when they ask your opinion and know your reason WHY. Explain the reasoning that is how they will to know you and how you think.

          Tell yourself it’s okay not to know what you will be doing, because you know for a fact whatever it is you will pick up speed as you go along. You have done this before so you know you can do it again.

          Get extra rest. Plan on extra rest for a few weeks maybe even months. Having extra rest will change this picture for you by a measurable amount.

          1. JHS*

            Thank you SO much. I literally want to print this out and read it every day. The new position starts in December so I am sort of anticipating until then, but I will try to use this time winding down the old job and before starting the new to get excited and creative.

  79. Aussie Teacher*

    So the bad news is while I made the final 3 for the Head of Dept job at another school, I was unsuccessful.
    The great news is that I just signed a contract at my current school for Acting Head of Dept for the first half of next year, and there’s hints being dropped that that might continue longer – I would be beyond thrilled if my terrible boss and spouse didn’t come back from leave!!!!

    1. fposte*

      I’m presuming your last sentence doesn’t mean you have a terrible spouse :-).

      Sorry you didn’t get the head job, but now you’ll have actual time as Acting Head for the CV, which will make you even more competitive next time.

  80. KR*

    Hello,
    I’m moving to California from NH at the end of this year. The minimum wage in NH is 7.25. I’ve been working Job A for 6 years. It’s a tech/media job and I started at 8/hr and make 14/hr now though my boss is adjusting our payscale before I leave so I’ll make 17/hr (hopefully). Job B is a retail supervisor and I make 10.65/hr which is pretty good for retail and reflects the company I work for and how good I am at my job. I’m going to California and effective 2017 the minimum wage will be 11/hr. The COA is higher out there too. I don’t want to go out there, have them inevitably ask for my salary history, and think they can low ball me. The minimum wage is 4$ higher! So if I got a retail supervisor job again which is entirely possible seeing as there aren’t a lot of opportunities near where I’m moving I don’t want them to give me 11/hr when I was making the CA equivalent of 14.66/hr back on New England. I’m looking for admin roles so I know I won’t get the tech/media pay I’m used to, but I’m just not sure how to navigate this minimum wage COA issue. Help!

    1. Natalie*

      Alison actually says often that you should avoid disclosing your salary history, because that shouldn’t have anything to do with how much the job pays. She has multiple article about this – enter “salary history” in the search this site box to find them. (I’ll link in a reply but since she’s sick I’m not sure how quickly it will get out of the spam filter.)

      2. KR*

        Hi Natalie. I’ve seen the articles. I guess I’m just nervous about asserting myself in the interview or my resume getting passed by if I don’t include it. Thank you.

        1. Natalie*

          Ah. Well, you’re right that it is a risk, although in my experience it’s a fairly small one. Whenever an employer makes an unreasonable request that you push back on (giving reference before an interview, doing a ton of unpaid work as a “test”, etc) you risk being rejected, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the best choice is “do whatever the prospective employer asks no matter what”. The level of risk you can comfortably take in those circumstances depends on how desperately you need a job and how in demand of an employee you are.

          Ultimately you’re taking a risk either way – that you’ll be summarily rejected, or that you’ll be accepted only to be offered a job you can’t live on, that is below market and your worth as an employee. Unfortunately I don’t think there’s a third option with no risk, so you’ll have to decide which prospect concerns you more.

  81. SophieChotek*

    Just a mini rant.
    Had conference call that was supposed to last 45-60 minutes. My boss said he wanted to make it fast and quick.
    It last 2 hours and 20 minutes And my boss talked 90% of the time; I probably talked 5% and the other two people talked the other 5%.
    Sigh.

    2. JMegan*

      Ha, you must work with my old boss! Sorry, I know it sucks.

      I have a friend who brings a colouring book and pencil crayons to work for boring conference calls – if your calls are voice-only, that might be a way of distracting yourself for…er…a couple of hours…while the boss drones on. Good luck!

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yes, I did put it on mute…checked my personal email, read AAM…I try to be attentative, but he does tend to just repeat himself with anecdotes we’ve already heard, and he’ll say, “maybe I’ve told you this” and then say the whole thing again anyway…

        sigh…

        Thanks, Kai and JMegan for sympathy…

        LOL just had another hour long conversation with him…

        1. Kai*

          Yeah, my former boss was similar to this. Not to the point of going hours over the allotted time, but he’d call a forum together to ask for feedback on something and spend 80% of the time giving his own opinion. SUPER frustrating.

    3. Jules the First*

      I have a coworker who is infamous for booking 45 minute meetings which turn out to be four hours. It’s a bit of a joke now in that we always remind eachother to visit the toilets and have a snack before going into a meeting with John.

  82. friendlyinitials*

    A question: How do you get through days where you have no motivation and no idea how to tackle a project? I have basically wasted the last couple of days away, the only productive thing I did today was wash the dishes in the office kitchen in the hopes that doing something with my hands would get my brain working but no luck! I’m stumped and my boss is away so I haven’t been able to ask for help. Does anyone have any tips?

    1. Fabulous*

      Make a To Do list for the project and just start breaking it down into smaller pieces. You may just be stuck because you don’t know where to start, and it’s probably because you’re thinking about it in too much of a “big picture” scale. Find the smaller tasks and start there.

    2. Rat Racer*

      I don’t know if this is an option for you, but sometimes I’ll get my brained warmed up by doing some other backburner thing that gives me a little endorphin burst for having it checked off my to-do list: e.g. filing an expense report, updating a dashboard – something that doesn’t require the creative part of my brain. Sometimes, that little happy “ping” to my brain has the momentum to get me going. Washing dishes isn’t nothing, but it’s not work-related either — maybe that’s why it didn’t give you the momentum you were looking for.

      Also, I know that the literature out there says to approach big projects systematically, with a plan that takes you from A to Z, but sometimes, depending on the nature of the project, I’ll just start in the middle, working on the one bit that I know I can do, even if it’s not the most important piece. The strategy here is to overcome the inertia that’s fighting against you to get the job started.

    3. Dawn*

      Motivation is fickle and doesn’t exist. If one sits and waits for motivation to strike then they’ll likely drop dead from waiting!

      However, discipline is always available, to anyone, and it can be trained and honed. Start by banishing any notion that inspiration is going to strike and instead apply discipline to the situation. Start small, and break down the project into tiny steps- so you can say “OK, today I am going to work 10 minutes out of every 30 on this project” and then begin by making a list of what you need to do, breaking the steps down into smaller steps, and working on the steps in your 10 minute spurts. Also make a CHECKLIST and whenever you accomplish an item on your checklist, mark it off! Look! Progress!

      So from there you can come in the next day and work 15 min per half hour, or 20, or 25- the point being that you’re breaking down the work into chunks, and that you’re seeing progress on this project by marking things complete on your checklist.

      1. Mephyle*

        This. Another trick for doing what you have to do without waiting for motivation or desire to strike is to play at being an actor. Pretend you are that person who wants to get the job done. Be an actor for a few minutes or a day, whatever is necessary, and play the role of the person who gets it done.

      2. Jean*

        Motivation is fickle…discipline is always available…and can be trained and honed.

        Late but I wanted to thank you for this. It’s really, really helpful. No offense meant by the paraphrasing.

    4. HannahS*

      I use checklists, for a few reasons. First, if I’m not sure where to start, it helps me break the task down. Second, if I’m not motivated, I can at least give myself a check mark for completing a task—and the less motivated I am, the more I break things down into separate check marks. Third, I get stuck in perfectionism, and if I can’t get a thing done perfectly, I don’t want to do it at all, which is a great way to never finish anything, ever. So giving myself check marks allows me to tell myself that I “finished” something.

    5. Girasol*

      I take out my journal and start writing “I don’t want to do this project because…” and keep writing until I find the sticking spot. I tend to procrastinate when there’s one big roadblock and imagine that the whole project is going to be a disaster. When I put a finger on the thing that’s scaring me away from getting going, I promise myself that I don’t need to solve it now but I will find one tiny thing I could do about it and then I can go take a break. Maybe I’ll brainstorm ideas, or draft a list of all the steps that I know, or ask one person a question, or even just locate the documentation and put it on the desktop. That seems to break the ice for me. An hour later I’ll find I’ve made a good start and forgot the break I meant to take.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I don’t know about the motivation, but I could easily spend a couple of days researching different ways to tackle a project. I might just google something, look through reference materials available in the office, or (if I could get permission from my supervisor) go to the public library and look at reference materials there.

  83. Chalupa Batman*

    Just found out that my job falls under the exemptions for the new FLSA overtime rule! While I’d gladly have taken the extra money, my salary falls just below where there was any reasonable chance that they would just raise our pay, so I was mentally preparing to be stuck clocking in and juggling flex time rules. Because of the cycles of my field (higher ed), the overtime rule would have significantly impacted my ability to do my job effectively. It also would also have taken away the amazing amount of flexibility I have now, a major perk of this position. I’ve never been happier to be ineligible for magnanimous government initiatives. I knew my Facebook friends would not understand how seriously awesome this is-yay open thread!

  84. Sophia Brooks*

    I just have to vent about how my university/school is talking about the FLSA thing- They have always had (and conflated improperly) 2 classes of employee. Support/Hourly/Non-Exempt and Professional/Salaried/Exempt. When you moved to the Professional/Salaried/Exempt, you got extra benefits, like unlimited sick time and more vacation. Now that many of us in the lowest paid Professional/Salaried/Exempt class are below the threshold, they are complying with the law by moving us to hourly, and not changing our benefits, which is great. But they keep telling us that we are still “exempt”, but they clearly think that “exempt” just means we are in the Professional class! They are paying us overtime, or making sure we limit our hours to under 40, but reassuring us that we are still exempt. It is making me crazy, and we are not a small place. We are the largest employer in our city. How can the HR/Payroll department not know what the word exempt means!

    1. fposte*

      Oy. Ours has struggled some as well, because there’s so much cultural accrual around the categories here, but they at least understand that “exempt” is not the same thing as “benefits.”

      Do they by any chance mean that you’ll still be salaried? That’s what they’re doing here. Obviously that’s still not the same thing as exempt but at least it’s closer.

      1. Sophia Brooks*

        Unfortunately, they do not seem to understand that we could still be salaried. We will have to punch in and out at a timeclock and they are installing 2 in our building. We can no longer input our own vacation days or sick time (and neither can the salaried people). I am hoping things calm down a little- they are really paranoid about getting fined or sued.

        The cultural thing is strong here- and I think they are trying really hard to let us know that we are not being re-classified as support staff, they are just using the wrong words!

        1. fposte*

          Oh, sheesh, a timeclock? Nobody (or at least nobody on the academic side–could be happening in others where I don’t know the deal) has to do that here.

          Ours took longer than most to figure it out, but they’ve come to an okay conclusion, I think; they’re still leaving flexibility at the discretion of individual units and, as I said, are keeping people on salary (if they do work OT that will come bi-weekly rather than monthly as it’s categorized as a different position). All non-exempt employees do have to take PTO in hourly increments (exempt employees wouldn’t take PTO for a 1-2 hour doctor’s appointment but non-exempt must), but since flex time is permissible it’s possible to work around that without taking a bigger hit to the PTO.

          I hope you’re right about them calming down at yours; right now that sounds irritating.

    2. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      My institution hasn’t even mentioned the new rules yet! I can’t wait for that.

  85. Jake*

    The person that worked for our client in my last job just got fired. It only took years of incompetence and creative financial management for the government agency to finally pull the trigger. It just stinks that he drove me to quit my last job 4 months ago. I can only imagine how miserable he made everybody in his time there.

    1. Mazzy*

      The last two people I knew that were nightmares lasted about 4 years before they finally got fired. No reason why it took so long.

  86. Audiophile*

    Thoughts on jobs that require a salary history?

    There’s a job I want to apply for that is insisting I share my salary history, I’m reluctant since I’m currently in a position that’s paying me less than my previous one.

    Anyone applied and blatantly ignored the directions on providing a salary history?

    1. Rat Racer*

      I think there was a post the other day where someone said they filled in the salary history as “$0” (zero). That way, they could bypass the computer system that requires an answer without actually disclosing anything. Are you further along in the hiring process where an actual human being is asking for salary history?

      1. Audiophile*

        No, I haven’t even applied yet.

        They want a resume, cover letter with salary requirements, and salary history emailed to them.

        So I’m thinking if I do 2 out of 3, I’ll get knocked out immediately.

        1. BRR*

          I’ve done it before without sending requirements or history even though they asked for both and still got to the next round. I might put requirements in the cover letter and not do salary history. I find when you apply by email vs. ATS it’s not as big of deal. Of course that’s just my experience.

    2. sole*

      Allison has suggested in the past saying something to the effect of ‘unable to disclose specific numbers due to previous workplace confidentiality, but my acceptable range for the position is $x – $x’ as an answer to that, and it seems fair/reasonable. I can’t imagine how they could press the issue after saying it’s a matter of confidentiality – that tends to be expected about lots of things regarding former employers.

      1. Audiophile*

        Yeah, I’ve deflected in interviews before. But this is an application submission via email and they specifically said in the post that they want people to state their salary requirements in the cover letter and to also include a salary history as part of their application process. So I’d have to email my resume, cover letter and then a separate salary history document.

    3. Pat Benetardis*

      So weird. I can see them asking your current salary, but why the history? I remember making 3.15 an hour in high school, what my first job out of college paid, and what I’ve made in the last few years, but that’s it. I guess I could go back through tax returns, but only keep 10 years worth of records.

  87. Sydney Bristow*

    Awhile back, there was a post that had commenters recommending resources for their industry. I was working on a case related to television so I started getting the Cynopsis and Mediabistro daily email digests, which I discovered through that post. I love learning about new topics and am never sure what will strike my fancy until it does. I’d love it if people could comment on their industry and what resources they rely on for keeping up with the news in their field. I’m looking to add to my daily email rundowns, which include the above-mentioned entertainment/media emails, NYTimes Daily, and The Broadsheet. How do you stay up to date in your field or just with a topic you find interesting?

    1. Dawn*

      I read a lot of Hacker News- it’s pretty much all science/programming related, and plenty of it goes over my head, but there’s a ton of stuff that I find interesting and that relates to my job on the periphery of IT.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I work in a niche area of IT, and I’ve found mailing lists and the revelant Slack “team” to be the best for getting information. I also follow a few blogs from industry leaders.

    3. vpc*

      “The Daily 202” and “Goverment Executive”… Washington news for non-politicals that still need to know what’s happening in our Nation’s capital.

  88. Rat Racer*

    Hello community of the wise, has anyone here been in a situation where you’ve advocated for organizational change that allocates more power to you? My department is poised to reorganize. I currently manage a small team, and we collaborate closely with several other people who work in other departments but “belong” to us – they’re almost like external consultants/contractors, but they actually work for the company.

    There are some problems with this structure: my department has unmet needs, no one is really holding the “consultants” accountable, and there’s no one in place to triage/prioritize the projects these consultants work on. I think it would be better if we could “in-source” these consultants so that we get some alignment and control.

    The problem is that these consultants have historically been my peers. If we “in-sourced” them, they would most likely report to me. I feel nervous and uncomfortable about making a power play here. My M.O. is typically to keep my head down, and let the chips fall where they will. So far in my career, this has worked just fine.

    Has anyone on these boards ever made a proposal to take over a team, or create a new team structure underneath you? How did it pan out? Do you have regrets?

    I know that every situation is different, but I would love to hear your stories.

    xoxo,

    Rat

    1. Product person*

      Rat Racer,

      The way I’ve approached this before is by making the business case to “in-source” the people. You don’t need to mention that they would report to you — let people conclude that on your own. Since you’re making the suggestion for the good of the company, not your own (which will be clear by your business case justifying why it would be better for accountability / agility / etc.), nobody will think you’re trying to make a “power play”.

      Just do it! The worse it can happen is they say no, but taking initiative is what makes someone a high performer.

  89. Jayne*

    A few weeks ago I posted asking for advice about how to learn to be more social – specifically so I can support my husband in his networking – and I wanted to post an update!
    I have been working on this skill (not at networking events yet, we haven’t had any) and I have already had comments from friends and various people that I’ve really come out of my shell. I also joined Toastmasters! We haven’t had a first official meeting yet, but I can’t wait to get started. It’s strange, because I never thought I’d be so excited to do public speaking every week. I know some days will be terrifying, but I am so looking forward to the new and improved social me.
    Thanks for all who gave me suggestions and support! You rock!

    2. ZVA*

      Thanks for the update! This is fantastic to hear. I’ve found that tackling social stuff like a skill to be improved (as opposed to a personality flaw I’m stuck with forever) has been exciting and rewarding… Hope it continues to be so for you as well :)

    4. Collie*

      Congratulations and well done! It’s not an easy thing to tackle and it sounds like you’re doing admirably. Keep it up!

  90. AwkwardArmadillo*

    Hypothetical: If I win a high-dollar-value prize in a company fundraising raffle that I have zero interest in for myself or anyone I know in my personal life, is it inappropriate to give it to my boss who I know would absolutely love said prize? We have a pretty close relationship that I don’t want to make awkward, but it’s not like I bought him 2k worth of sports tickets to give him.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Personally, I think the fact that it was a company fundraising raffle makes it okay. Buying him the tickets would be weird, but donating money to something the company supports, and giving away the reward, seems pretty non-weird to me.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Yes, I think since this was a company raffle that might make it ok. If what you are listing (event tickets) is the prize and you get more than one, you could also offer to take him as your guest, or offer to let him plus someone else in your group go (perhaps do another drawing within your department just of people that want the ticket).

        If it’s something like “single seat in the company box at the big event with lots of winners”, I’d suggest you go unless it’s something you really actively hate – it could be a prime networking activity, even if it isn’t really your thing. Or if you really don’t want to, same thing – a drawing within your group.

        Alternately, since it was a company raffle (if that wasn’t the only prize), I’ve also seen people do a silent auction style re-sale of the tickets that went over well – the winner sent out a message that said “I can’t use the tickets, so I’m auctioning them off as a further donation to [whatever the raffle supported]. The highest bidder by 3:45 pm will get the tickets.”

        If it’s something like World Series tickets or some other sold out event that are impossible to come by otherwise and your boss is a super fan, I also think that’s different than if it’s tickets to a single sports event that the boss could choose to go by tickets for. For a random event, I’d probably tell the organizer to draw another ticket from the raffle – but for the once in a lifetime events I think it’d be ok to give to your boss.

        If event tickets was just your example and it’s actually a tangible thing like a iPad or big tv, I think that would be weirder to give to your boss -but I don’t think it’s too weird to give the tickets to your boss. However, if you have peers that also really would want the tickets, they might try to accuse you of being a suck-up, mainly because they are jealous that you didn’t give the tickets to *them*.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Not sure about boss part. I suppose technically it’s yours to do with.
      Is there a different prize you could privately switch with winner?
      I don’t know, re-sell and get some cash for it? (Not sure when it’s a prize if that is always possible)….

    3. Graciosa*

      Yes, it’s inappropriate, and no, you can’t give your boss a gift.

      It doesn’t matter that you won it in a drawing and didn’t pay anything close to full price for it. It doesn’t matter that he would absolutely love it (although it would probably make it look to others like a better bribe than if he hated it).

      The only factor that matters is that he’s your boss. You can’t give your boss a gift. That rule trumps everything else.

      1. Artemesia*

        I agree. You could however make them available to people in your department including your boss e.g. ‘I just won a dozen pairs of tickets in the raffle to Flying Sloth games and will only be using one of them (just out of tact, you can still give those away just not at work). Let me know if you are interested in one of the games as I’d like to share them in the department.’ That way you spread them around and make people happy.

        Alternatively, if they are sought after tickets, sell them on Craigs List.

      2. Allypopx*

        I think that’s a little stringent. There have been examples here of times it’s appropriate (those times have never been “I won a raffle” but it’s still not worth speaking in absolutes about).

        It probably comes down to your relationship with your boss. You could also present it casually like “Hey Fergus, I won this raffle! I was happy to participate, but the prize isn’t really my style – it did strike me as something you’d like though. Are you interested?” Give your boss the opportunity to turn it down and avoid awkwardness, but put forth the nice gesture that you had them in mind.

        1. Graciosa*

          I really don’t agree that it “comes down to your relationship with your boss.”

          If you think you have a better, more personal relationship with your boss such that you are entitled to break the normal rules that prohibit gifts, doing so will probably create even more of an appearance problem than under other circumstances. It would be messaging to everyone in the company that you have special privileges due to your special relationship.

          Others in the company are likely to perceive that the gifts to the boss are the cause of the special relationship rather than an effect. Even if it is an effect, the right thing to do is *not* to take advantage of it.

          The best example I ever heard of avoiding any appearance that you were inappropriately favored by someone above you was a receiving line at the White House during the Kennedy administration. A long string of guests were glad-handing the host with “Good to see you, Jack!” and other expressions of familiarity.

          The president’s brother greeted him with “Good evening, Mr. President.”

          That’s the example to follow.

  91. Not Karen*

    I got “mothered” by a coworker yesterday. The women thought it was necessary to advise me to stand back from the microwave due to radiation. I just smiled and nodded.

    Of course this woman also greeted me with “I don’t think we’ve met.” We have met. I’ve been at the company for over a year. I’m terrible with names but even I remember whether or not I’ve met someone before.

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t worry much about the second (lots of people don’t remember if they’ve met people before) but a big eyeroll to the first, both to the belief and the warning. I bet she sends a lot of Important Email Forwards.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Lol! Sounds like you handled it really well. There’s always at least one of those people in every workplace…

  92. not really a lurker anymore*

    A question for my husband. He’s currently employed but job searching. He’s being kinda picky about where he applies, which is not a problem as he and I would both like him to have a good fit wherever he lands.

    He applied with Company A in early September for a teapot analysis position; did 2 phone interviews and 1 in person interview. It seemed to be going fine. They contacted him to say they were moving on with people who had a stronger background in tea pot insurance analysis. He was happy that let me know that and moved on with his job search.

    Company A has since posted multiple other positions similar to one the previously applied for. Can he apply for those or is it pointless since there’s not really a way for him to gain background in tea pot insurance analysis at his current job?

    1. LadyKelvin*

      I think he should still apply. He made it pretty far through the interview process so his lack of experience didn’t disqualify him from the start, just someone with more experience than him also made it through the process and go the offer. This time he might be the best candidate for the job compared to the other people who have also applied.

      1. Artemesia*

        I would call whoever interviewed before or what the contact, or send them an email or whatever seems least intrusive and say that he noticed they are advertising again and that he is still interested, would it be appropriate for him to apply or to reactivate his previous application.

        They interviewed him; they know who he is; you would think if they were interested they would contact him, but one call or note to inquire might jog their memory if they have forgotten.

      2. not really a lurker anymore*

        Thanks. It’s also a HUGE company here and they have exceptional fringe benefits, which means they also get a lot of applications for openings.

        I’ve got a friend who works there, in a completely different division, who was happy to give us some “insider” information on them. So we know they usually have a painfully slow hiring process. My friend was really surprised at how fast they moved to get his first interviews done.

  93. Cochrane*

    This topic came up in office chit-chat: is there such a thing as “the curse of being first”?

    Such as interviewing: the first candidate that is interviewed for a slot is pretty much a burner because you don’t want to be seen as jumping for the first person to come along or the impression they make simply fades over time.

    Or management problems: if you’re the first person brought in to turn around a struggling department, you’re pretty much doomed to failure as you stumble your way through the mess, paving the way for your successor to learn from your mistakes.

    Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      Nah. They’re not pancakes :-). In fact, in a long string of interviews first has the primacy advantage–they’ll be more memorable than those in the middle.

      I would agree that people won’t say “Hire this person now” about the first candidate since they haven’t seen the field, but a good first interview sets a standard against which subsequent interviewees get measured, and if they don’t measure up, first will get the job.

      1. Artemesia*

        If you are a strong first you may also frame what they look for; they will be comparing others to you if they were very impressed with you and that is to your advantage. Or is it only me who when shopping finds something perfect and then spends hours looking everywhere for that same thing?

    2. CR*

      I was the first interviewee for my current job and I thought I was doomed. I wish they hadn’t told me I was the first – I was certain they’d forget about me after interviewing others. It caused so much anxiety. But I got the job! So, I don’t really think there’s a rhyme or reason to it.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      In high school, I interned for a casting agency. I learned quickly that even in a long line of prospects, the first several people are very likely to be hired– if they’re good. The standard is the first “great” person people see, whether that’s the first person who turns out to be really great, or the third who blows them away. I remember the first time I heard an offer made to the first person the agents saw and I was so shocked– they remembered her even after two or three hours of open casting! But yeah, she was just that good. You want to set the bar, not stick out only because of your place in line.

    4. Graciosa*

      It really doesn’t matter.

      This sort of thing strikes me as the kind of explanation people come up with to explain to themselves why they didn’t get the job and it wasn’t their fault – it was just because they were the first interview, and if it hadn’t been for that, everything would be different.

      Hiring is generally a competition, however, and most employers are trying to get the best person for the job. You can be very, very good and happen to come in second because the equivalent of an Olympian in your field happened to apply and compete against you – and this *still* is not your fault. It’s just the way it works.

      But I’ve never seen a hiring decision actually impacted by interview order the way candidates convince themselves it was.

    5. Construction Safety*

      I was the first interviewee which resulted in my current job. The down side was the wait between interview and next step.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      you don’t want to be seen as jumping for the first person to come along or the impression they make simply fades over time.

      I think if that’s the case, there’s something wrong with your interviewing / decision-making process.

      I was the first to apply at a former workplace. They interviewed me, liked me, and then didn’t contact me again for over a month. Then they came scrambling back. They told me later they really liked me, but they wanted to see what else was out there (doing their due diligence). After they interviewed the other candidates, they realized I was the best of the lot.

      Yes, you don’t just make a job offer immediately to the first person you interview, but that doesn’t mean you leave them (and yourself, for not hiring the best candidate) at a disadvantage either.

  94. Imaginary Number*

    I was hoping for opinions on cubicle etiquette. Everyone in my office works in cubicles or in open office areas (even some of the managers.) My cubicle is large enough to hold two desks, but is somewhat between the size of an individual single and a double. For the past year I’ve had it to myself, but recent reorganization has made space really tight and someone moved into the other desk, which I’m fine with. I’m not the only one who has had to give up space and there’s plenty of room to move.

    My problem is how to deal with noise. Most of the other shared cubicles are quads, so there’s simply a lot more open space between desks. That’s not the case in my cubicle. I’m getting annoyed every time my coworker has people huddled around his desk because I can’t hear teleconferences or phone calls even when I use my headset. I’m also pretty sure he has the same experience whenever I have people huddled around my workstation. Our work is the sort of thing where this needs to happen pretty frequently (and it’s not the sort of thing that can be easily transferred to a laptop and taken to a conference room.)

    What’s the standard etiquette for this sort of situation? Is it okay to ask “Hey, I need to jump on this teleconference meeting, so can you move somewhere else or come back later?” Or should it be up to me to find somewhere else to go?

    1. Sadsack*

      Maybe you should pick a time to talk with your cube mate about this and make a decision together. Would it be possible to go to a conference room to join a conference call or to get together with others for discussions? I’d discuss the issue with your cube mate to figure out what your options are.

    2. Newby*

      If it is easier for you to go to a conference room for a teleconference call, then that would make sense. Talk to your cube mate and figure out what is easier. If the conference calls are not too frequent, maybe both you you can post a schedule on the wall of when you need relative quiet and you can avoid having other people come into the cubicle during those times. You could also see if your organization is willing to purchase some noise canceling headphones to use during the calls.

    3. Emilia Bedelia*

      I do this all the time. My cubemate is very popular so there are a lot of often noisy people in my area- I usually say something “Hey, I’m on a call and I’m having trouble hearing the other people, could you take this somewhere else if you’re going to be talking for a few minutes?” After the call I say something like “Thanks for moving! It’s so hard to hear sometimes with people talking”. The first time I did this, I added “If you ever need me to quiet down when you’re on a call, please let me know”. It helps that we have a good relationship and that she is usually very conscientious- everyone knows the issues with space and people and bad teleconference connections so it shouldn’t be that big of a deal (if your coworker is reasonable, of course)

  95. Contract slave worker*

    Yesterday’s sick leave discussion was timely for me. I’m on a 6 month contract at a new job with zero benefits, sick days or vacation time. I can’t afford to be sick. There is a definite possibility of staying on after the 6 months are over. I would like to stay with this company, but unless they’re willing to give me at least some sick days and PTO, I will most likely leave. But jobs don’t grow on trees, and I don’t want to push too hard during negotiations for fear they’ll turn around and say “We can hire someone else who’s willing to work for zero benefits, so goodbye.” How to handle this??

    1. fposte*

      Do the permanent employees get PTO? Then you should get them when you’re hired and it’s perfectly reasonable to make sure. If they don’t, you’ll be unlikely to be an exception unless you are a rare gem at a pretty high level.

      1. Contract slave worker*

        That’s the thing – permanent employees do get PTO, but this company has a tendency to keep people on contract for a long time before offering a permanent position.

        I don’t understand why a company wouldn’t want to retain good employees instead of hiring contract workers over and over.

        1. Graciosa*

          Because permanent employees come with a host of other obligations (severence, unemployment insurance, etc.) and if you’re not absolutely sure you’ll need them long term, using contract workers offers more flexibility in managing your costs.

          Oddly, this might be an argument for eliminating those impediments to permanent hiring, but I doubt we’ll move in that direction.

        2. fposte*

          Because benefits are expensive and because they’re scared they’d have to fire somebody who was permanent.

    2. Girasol*

      I had a staff of contractors on the last project and there were no provisions made for them to have any days off for a year. But stuff happens. We had people injured, sick, with previous holiday plans, deaths of far away family members, parents in the hospital…you name it. While we couldn’t pay for time off (that’s the way the contract was negotiated) we could at least plan to work around unpaid time off with people who were hardworking and responsible the rest of the time. If you can’t financially afford a sick day without pay, that’s probably going to be a problem in a lot of contract situations (although it doesn’t hurt to ask!) But if you’re assuming the contract’s lack of PTO provisions means that you must never be sick or miss a minute of work, well, I suspect most people who hire contractors understand that life happens.

  96. Rob from NYC*

    I’m pretty sure one of my co-workers has a crush on me. She comes down to my floor for lunch and just stares at me the whole time, and if I need go up to where she sits, she’ll smile at me and flip her hair the whole time I’m around.

    Lately she’s stated coming over to ask me whenever she needs anything at all for a reason to start a conversation with me. Like if she needs a USB cable she’ll take the elevator down to my floor, ask me if I have one (I don’t do anything IT related, there’s no reason you would ask me for one), and then start asking me where I’m from, what I like to do, what I’m doing this weekend. I blow it off by telling her I have to get stuff done and she gets the point, but it’s still annoying.

    It reminds me of how I was when I was a teenager and got really nervous around girls I liked. Not really much I can do here so I’m just venting.

    1. Graciosa*

      Ugh – sympathy.

      I’m glad the direct approach of telling her you have work to do is working after a bit of conversation, but you might think about being more frequently perplexed (“Why would you come all the way down here to ask me about a USB cable?” and let her experience the uncomfortable moment trying to come up with a plausible answer).

      This too shall pass. Eventually.

      1. Rob from NYC*

        Yeah, that’s good. I’ll try that. My problem is that I’m a little too guileless. I just thought “oh, if I say no and I look really annoyed, which I am, I’ll be left alone.” Unfortunately… but yeah, next time she comes to me with something that’s a really transparent reason to start a conversation with me I’ll just be like “I don’t get why you’re coming over here and asking me, you should probably be asking IT. Anyway I have stuff to finish by 5 so ask them.” Not really nice but it’s not mean and it gets across that I’m not interested in anything other than getting my work done.

        1. nonegiven*

          Direct approach:

          You seem to be going out of your way to come up with excuses to talk to me. It’s making me uncomfortable. Will you please stop?

    2. Anon Marketer*

      Also, if you’re not interested or just find the attention annoying, casually make an offhand comment about weekend plans if she asks (as all co-workers are wont to do): “Oh yes, I’m super excited that my partner [whether you have one or not] and I are going to the film festival this weekend!” If she has any morals, she’ll back off really quickly. :P

      1. ZSD*

        Eh, when the sexes are flipped, people hate that women have to pretend to have a boyfriend to get guys to leave them alone. I don’t think this is the right way to go.

        1. Anon Marketer*

          Eh, I personally don’t see the issue, and it’s not really any of her business whether he’s partnered or not. I think it’s going to come down whether OP finds her behavior isn’t being curbed or not by more subtle cues.

          1. ZSD*

            The issue when the sexes are flipped is that there are men out there who will continue to pursue a woman even when she’s told them she’s not interested, but then when she says she has a boyfriend, they back off, thus showing that they have more respect for another dude’s right to the woman than they have for the woman’s right to choose whom she’s interested in.
            In this case, if it’s not the crusher’s business whether the crushee has a partner, then why should the crushee bring it up?

            1. Anon Marketer*

              Fair point, I suppose, but I feel she should have respect if he says he’s partnered. I know I wouldn’t go after someone who said they were with someone, whether it were true or not, but that’s just me. I don’t see any issue with using the excuse for either gender. But sometimes, in my experience, that’s the only way to really defuse the interest short of going, “Hey, I’m getting vibes you’re interested, and I’m not.” (Which leaves a lot less room for the person to bow out gracefully.) Different strokes for different folks, I suppose!

            2. New Bee*

              I generally agree, but in this case I see it as being OK because she’s not directly hitting on him. With men (I’m a woman), it’s annoying because “Not interested” should be enough. But since this woman hasn’t expressed interest in the OP, there’s no non-awkward to give an unsolicited, “I’m not interested in you,” so saying he has a partner is a handy shortcut.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I feel the same way about it, but I tend to agree with New Bee. He could just work it in casually and it gives her a way to back out and still retain her dignity.

                Sometimes it can be awkward to say “I’m not interested” if the person hasn’t directly asked them out. And many people are loath to say it in case they’re wrong about the person having a crush and don’t want to embarrass them.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      The staring is a bit weird and creepy, but the rest of her behavior seems harmless enough. For the USB cable in particular, I would probably redirect her to IT… or for other similar things, the other relevant department.

      1. Rob from NYC*

        Yeah it’s not something that’s intrusive enough that it’s worth speaking up about, but it’s a little obnoxious. Normally I’d be out of the office during lunch but I work with distributed teams and people in different timezones a lot so I tend to take lunch around 2 instead of at 12.

        If she is interested in me, I sort of wish she would just ask me out so I could politely decline and be done with it. I keep those two parts of my life separate.

  97. Amber Rose*

    The company had a rough year and some layoffs and hour cuts and stuff. In a couple months will be my yearly review/raise chat. I was wondering if it would be OK to ask for more vacation time instead of more money? There probably isn’t money for raises and I could use a few extra days off. That wouldn’t be out of line would it?

    1. Graciosa*

      I think it’s absolutely fine to ask (and a nice idea for recognition when money is limited). I have worked with companies where additional vacation time was negotiable, and companies where it was not, but even in the latter no one was offended by the request.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I agree; it could be nice. (Would it be more PTO or at least not docked pay.) And it might be something they can/willing to do. Flexibility is often brought up also; if it suits the role/job responsibilities.

  98. Wits End*

    This week has been a total drag. I’ve been dreading everyday this week, and previous weeks. I’ve been literally working for the weekend. I’m so glad it’s Friday!

  99. Grealish*

    I’m job-hunting after an 18 month stint of blood sweat and lots of tears with a non-profit – and I really do not want to use my current (soon to be last!) employer as a reference. After highlighting some financial ‘oddities’ I’m being exited swiftly and to be honest for my sanity I’m ok with it (like so ok with it I look like I won the lottery!). I’m concerned though that they’ll drag my reputation into what they were up to and also in general as human beings I don’t trust them to act appropriately if asked for a reference for me.

    Is there a way to get around using them as a reference? Most job applications insist now on one referee being a ‘current or most recent employer’ so it would be pretty obvious that I’m not conforming to the requirement.

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      Do you have a coworker who you DID get along with there? Even if it’s not your direct supervisor, perhaps that could help mitigate it for some people?

      1. MadisonCheese*

        Subordinate yes, co-worker as such….no. I have someone from a related entity that will give me a stellar reference (think if every state had an independent teapot inspectorate….I’m one state and he’s another) but if a new employer were to actually approach my old one I wouldn’t be so comfortable.

    2. misspiggy*

      You might want to consult a lawyer about helping you get a good reference from them, in exchange for not speaking up externally about the financial issues.

  100. LizB*

    The pilot program I work for is floundering a bit right now, so my coworkers and I brainstormed a bunch of changes we think are necessary to make it more functional (and we would know, since we’re the people ACTUALLY doing the work), and I went to meet with my great-grandboss to give her the list. This could so easily have turned into an intern-dress-code-petition situation, but thankfully my great-grandboss received in the spirit it was meant (input to be considered, not demands) and is going to get on my boss and grandboss’s asses about getting some of the changes made. I’m pretty sure that she’ll actually have our back where our other bosses haven’t so far, so that’s good.

    I’m getting more and more fed up with my boss, though. Yesterday the whole team had to sit around for half an hour and figure out how to assign incoming work because he wanted to make it a “team decision” — in reality, I’m pretty sure he just didn’t understand what work was actually incoming and needed us to interpret for him. He’s also explained some changes coming down the pipeline about twenty times now, always when I have other work I could be doing, and each time he explains it wrong; I honestly think English not being his first language is preventing him from understanding what the heck is going on, because we work in a very jargony field, but of course there’s no way to bring that up to him or anyone without sounding like an asshole. So frustrating…

    1. AFRC*

      Sorry – no advice, but I’ve never heard the term “great-grandboss” – totally love it and am borrowing it for future reference!

      1. LizB*

        I picked up that term from another commenter here, and I love it too! :) It’s so much less clunky than saying “boss’s boss’s boss” or “manager three levels above my level”.

  101. Ann Furthermore*

    I was offered a job last week, which I accepted! I gave my notice Monday, and my last day is next Friday. I’ll start my new job on 11/2. It feels weird to be leaving, as I’ve been with my company for almost 12 years, but it’s the right thing to do. My department is surely going to be outsourced in the next couple of years.

    My boss was kind of weird and passive aggressive when I gave my notice. She said, “I knew this was coming. You’ve been unhappy and irritable, and it’s been affecting me, and the rest of the team.” Well…yeah. Upper management has made it very clear that the chances for advancement and promotion for anyone who is not an employee of the parent company will be pretty scarce. Jobs are being sent offshore, or relocated to other parent company locations. We have a CEO that is hell-bent on chipping away at our benefits (taking away virtual work, floating holidays, reducing everyone’s vacation accrual) and slashing costs left and right, but still hundreds of thousands of dollars are available to remodel his executive suite. Everyone here is miserable and people are dropping like flies. But it’s my negativity that’s bringing everyone down. OK, whatever. If that’s what you need to tell yourself, fine. I wanted to thank her for making it easier to resign.

    That’s been her recurring criticism of me almost the entire time I’ve worked for her, and I sort of feel like I’ve been gaslit. Am I always a beaming ray of sunshine? No. Do I just smile and lie down and let people walk all over me when they treat me or others on my team poorly? No. But I also don’t think that I’m this horrible vortex of negative energy. All week, people have been stopping by or emailing me to tell me how sorry they are to see me leave, and how much they’ll miss working with me. So I can’t be that bad.

    It’s weird…I so looked forward to finding another job and giving my notice, for months. But after I did it, my boss sent out an announcement email, and the “We’ll miss you” replies started coming in, and then I started feeling a little emotional. I suppose that’s normal though. It’s hard to leave, even though my job has become pretty unbearable. I’ve made so many friends here over the years, and I work with a truly great bunch of people. I’m going to miss them all. At the same time, I’m ready for a new challenge and I’m looking forward to starting my new job.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      You sound like me Ann Furthermore.
      My once-great employer has had MASSIVE changes over the last year. Workloads have been tripled and budgets slashed. They want the sun, moon and unicorns and you have no money to accomplish it. AND THEN they have the audacity to think all employees should have sunshine and “positivity” beaming out their asses! It’s very frustrating.
      I’m looking, but that whole process is just somehow making me feel even more depressed and despondent.
      ARE there any good companies out there anymore?

    2. Rebecca*

      Wow, that last paragraph is me! I will probably give notice on Monday, and I will truly miss some of the people here. My manager is my biggest problem, as well as many other middle managers and people who are just plain rude and dismissive. I am working really hard to do this right, as I want to preserve professional relationships. You never know who you will work with again in the future!

      Hang in there!

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        My issue with my manager is that she’s just interested in keeping her head down and going along to get along for the next few years until she can ease into retirement.

        She’s been here 27 years. When the outsourcing finally happens, she’ll walk away with 6 months of severance pay. She’s got the pension from the current parent company, and she’s got the pension from the company that owned us before that, which even includes retiree health care (unheard of anymore). She’s also by far the most frugal person I’ve ever met, so she’s probably got a fortune in her 401(k) to boot. That’s great for her, and in her position I’d do the exact same thing. But that also means that she won’t make any waves, or do anything that might call any extra attention to herself or her team. We’re all expected to just shut up and take it, all while keeping big smiles on our faces.

    3. Caledonia*

      Congratulations on your new job ann furthermore. I know from reading your posts,you haven’t been happy with the way things have been at work for quite a while and I hope your new position works out well for you.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Thank you very much. It’s really too bad, because this was a great place to work for many years. But the time is right to move on.

        Even though I think my current boss’s comments say more about her than they do about me, I do acknowledge that there is some truth to what she’s saying. She’s right that I have been unhappy, but it’s almost impossible to be happy and upbeat in an environment where upper management makes it clear that they don’t care about you in the slightest and that employees are nothing more than inconveniences to be disposed of. It’s demoralizing.

        My last day is next Friday, and my first day at my new company is the following Wednesday, so I have a few days to decompress. Put all this wretched stuff into the past so I can walk into my new job with a clean slate and a positive outlook.

        My current benefits will run through 10/31, and I will be enrolled in the insurance plan with my new company as of 11/2, my first day. Murphy’s Law being what it is, my daughter will probably break her arm or something on 11/1. I’m tempted to keep her home from school that day and put her into a protective bubble.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I got a similar thing from a boss. I knew it was mostly her because she was the only one telling me I seemed unhappy. Everyone else had nice things to say, with one person going as far as saying, “you are that department, how will they function now?” This person was not the type of person to say stuff like this.
          But truth be told, while I learned a lot at that job, I was not happy. I just shrugged and told her to name one person who seems happy. She couldn’t.

          FWIW, I noticed that the more frugal people are they more unhappy they are. And it seems to hold true with your boss also. I suspect she deprives herself from her own happiness and this will bear out eventually.

          1. Ann Furthermore*

            You know, I think you’re right about that. Every single time any discussion of money comes up, she goes on and on about how expensive things are. I was a few minutes late for a meeting one morning, and I apologized, saying that the cleaning ladies had come the day before and had rat-holed my hairdryer away somewhere and it had taken me about 10 minutes to find it. She gasped and said, “You *pay* people to clean your house???” Yes, I do. I hate housework and completely suck at it, and at least right now, I’m very fortunate to be able to afford to pay someone to do it for me. If things go to hell in a handbasket and my husband or I suddenly find ourselves unemployed, that will be the first thing to go. But for now, I’m going to enjoy it while I can.

  102. MissDisplaced*

    So, here is sort of my thing, and I’m not sure how to get past it.
    Due to many major changes out of my control (a sale, new boss, downsizing, etc.) I have not been happy in my current job: It’s just not the same job anymore. I have begun looking. However, this:

    When I searching for job, I just get this overwhelming feeling of being depressed and angry. Maybe I’m too cynical now, but when I browse the job postings that fit me, I automatically discard something like 98% due to location, company reputation, level (too low-too high), lack of interest, or in reading what I view as being a very unrealistic set of expectations for the position (three jobs in one type of thing-which is what I have now).

    I guess when you’re being picky and you’re employed you can do this somewhat, but still the whole process is just making me feel horrible somehow, and I feel there just aren’t any good companies out there. It’s discouraging and demoralizing and I feel trapped where I am. Does anyone else get this way?

    1. Graciosa*

      This is totally normal.

      If you’re looking for a way past the mental block, you could set a target for yourself and commit to it. The target should be that you will apply to X number of jobs in [time window]. You are allowed to be picky and only apply to the best X possibiliites, but you must apply to at least X. This should force you to pick some options you might otherwise have discarded.

      The hard part is actually ensuring that you can manage your emotions in order to interview successfully. If you get an interview, you could convince yourself that you will find out if you want the job during the process (and you should be evaluating this anyway) and treat the time spent as practice if you decide it’s not a good fit. Another option would be finding a certain number of positive points about the job and focusing on those to help yourself get excited about the opportunity.

      You do have to be careful about being overly negative in interviewing – that can be memorable in a very bad way – but no one can tell you were gritting your teeth when grinding out an application if you can keep the negativity out of the document.

      I would urge you to move quickly, because the unfortunate truth is that this doesn’t get better by remaining in a bad environment.

      Good luck.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        This is precisely my worry. Yes, I admit I’ve been feeling very negative lately, due in part to seeing a job I LOVED and was enthused about slowly change into exactly what I didn’t want. And I do love WHAT I do… I just don’t love my current boss or the changes they are making. Plus, there’s an underlying current of NewBoss wanting to get rid of me to bring in his own team–all under the guise of reorganizing. Because I’m the “old crew” now I am the pariah.

        So, how do I communicate that when job searching and not sound like I’m complaining, being negative, or being seen as someone who can’t stick out changes? How can I explain why I want to leave?
        It’s very difficult and I know my emotions are spilling over into the job search activities. Fortunately, I’ve only had one interview and I need to rein this negativity in somehow.

        1. Graciosa*

          Pick another reason.

          Looking for new challenges.
          Excited by the opportunity at NewCo.
          Eager to develop more of a focus on cocoa teapots.

          It doesn’t really matter as long as it doesn’t criticize your current employer. Note that I would expect all of these to be true in your circumstances, so you’re not lying. You just don’t include the fact that you hate your current job.

          The reason is that an outsider can’t tell if you’re responding to a genuinely bad environment or you’re just a whiny complainer who wouldn’t be happy anywhere. No one wants to risk hiring the latter – or anyone who doesn’t understand the professional rules of conduct for interviews. So find a positive truth to tell about why you want the new job without being overly critical of the old one.

    2. Jennifer*

      It’s like grocery shopping when you’re starving vs. full. If you’re starving (i.e. unemployed) you’ll take anything. If you’re full (still employed) you can literally “afford to be picky.”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Yep, I so get this.
      You might want to try some vitamin D. Seriously, this kind of stress just pulls vitamins and minerals out of our bodies at an accelerated rate. Get some good stuff into you.

      Next understand that the job feels like punishment and job hunting feels like punishment. Put something into your day that feels rewarding. Don’t set your day up where you just drain and drain all day long, then go to bed. Deliberately put something nice in to each day.

      Remind yourself that the hardest prison to get out of is the one inside our own heads. You could pretend you are helping a friend, who just happens to be in a situation remarkably similar to yours, to find a job. Sometimes we can help our friends easier/quicker than we can help ourselves.

      Speaking of which, my wise friend used to say when things are at their bleakest, the way out is to actually help someone else. Why does this work? It gives us a feeling of empowerment. See, some things like what you are talking about here just totally strip our power from us, we feel trapped, powerless. When we successfully help someone, even with a small thing, we start to feel our power coming back. It does not have to be a big help, it can be small and only take a very short time. If you decide to consider this one, keep it simple and keep it doable.

      None of this directly answers your question. My last suggestion is maybe you have allowed yourself to fall into isolation with this job hunting problem. Look for others to talk with. People here will talk with you. I am sure you can find at least one more person around you who would be willing to bat around some ideas. Do not force yourself to go through this alone, you don’t need to.

  103. Eyes Wide Open*

    Does anyone know anything about constructive termination? I believe I am in this situation and am not sure what to do.

    Background: My boss, supervisor, manager, whatever you want to call her stopped speaking to me in July. Since then, she has been cutting me out of everything. I am no longer included on emails, conference calls. She does 99% of the department work herself. We had to move to a different location earlier in the year due to a blow up between her and the president of the company who she claimed was going to hurt her if she stayed in that office. BTW she completely over reacted and yeah she has problems. I have tried to speak to her but she slams her office door whenever I walk by. Oh yeah, my big sin was asking if something could wait until after I had my lunch because for the past 2 weeks she would come in my office whenever she saw me start my lunch and spend my lunch hour talking at me about work issues usually her plots to overthrow the president.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      OMG! Do you have any relationship with the President or someone close to them you can loop in?

      1. Eyes Wide Open*

        The president thinks I am in my boss’ camp. I have thought about going to the Chairman of the Board who I do have a relationship with but my husband has been advising me to wait until I find another job. We have no HR department.

        1. Cristina in England*

          No, don’t wait. That is Bad News that the president thinks you are in your boss’s camp. Someone close to me is in a similar situation without that particular detail: her boss has some sort of paranoid mental illness and thinks that her office is bugged so she will write certain things down and hold up the piece of paper to be seen by the other person in a one on one meeting, instead of just saying something out loud. In this case, the person close to me has brought up concerns for the boss with the grand boss, and is much better off for it. If you frame it as a concern rather than something accusatory, then that’s probably the best way to go. Don’t wait until you leave, because you could really be hurt reputationally if you let the president think you’re with your boss in this behaviour.

          1. nonegiven*

            My sister has done some consulting for a lawyer and the lawyer was paranoid about a lot of things. The audit turned up no missing money but the bug sweep did find a bug in her personal office and one on her private phone line.

  104. Junior Dev*

    I got laid off after 3 months at what was supposed to be a long term job. They told me the company lost a big client and it wasn’t my fault, and my boss said she’d provide a reference.

    What I am wondering is how I present this on my resume/in cover letters/ in interviews. It was my second job in a field I’ve been trying to break into for a couple years (web/software development); the first was a 7 month internship. I don’t think it looks good to have a job last only 3 months. In addition, there are a lot of technologies and skills I was just beginning to get acquainted with; not sure how to present that when job searching.

    What story do I tell, on paper and in conversation, that makes me look like a good choice to be hired? I also don’t have a computer science degree; but I’ve been working so hard to learn programming these last few years and I’m feeling pretty discouraged by the prospect of trying to convince another company to take a chance on me.

    1. Natalie*

      I can’t speak to the specific dev question, but generally speaking layoffs don’t reflect poorly on the employee. That’s why it’s a layoff, not a firing.

  105. ArtK*

    So, I have an opportunity but I’m not certain how to approach it.

    Background: I’m in software and, like most people here, have found a niche. There’s another niche that I’m very interested in; I’ve had some training in that area. I know that switching would not be a problem for me (yes, I’m bragging a tad, but I am that good.) The problem with breaking into that niche is the lack of experience on my resume.

    Opportunity: My neighbor’s college roommate is the CEO of a company in that niche. Although based in the South, he often gets contracts out this way. My neighbor has offered to bring me up when his friend is out here next. The issue is that my LinkedIn profile and resume don’t have any of the new niche on them — on paper, I’m pretty unsuitable. How do I present this to my neighbor to present to his friend?

    The catch: I can’t leave my current niche full time. It would be a huge (like 75%) cut in pay to start at the bottom. What I would like to do is take on some small, low-risk contracts to gain experience and credibility.

    1. Junior Dev*

      Do you have any side projects in Niche Area? Put them on Github if that’s at all possible. Bonus points if you can make a demo version online somewhere people can interact with them (without knowing what Niche is I’m not sure how you’d do this).

      1. ArtK*

        Good thought. I’m not sure there’s something I could put up on GitHub. To give a little more detail, the new niche is industrial process control using ladder logic and PLCs. I can put a ladder program up but without hardware attached it’s not terribly meaningful. I’ll see what I can cook up, though.

        1. Junior Dev*

          Ah yeah, I can see how that would complicate things.

          Another possibility is to write an article about how to do XYZ part of the process and describe the code piece by piece (you can post it on your personal site or github.io). Or write a package/library in your preferred language that others can use when coding this logic in their own projects. Good luck!

  106. Rincat*

    So I’m a business intelligence analyst at state university. I’ve been applying for various jobs recently, and I’m not sure what to say for “reasons for leaving.” My reasons for leaving are: no opportunity for growth (no time for training or professional development, mgmt is not creating new positions), leadership is terrible (playing favorites, not holding people accountable, terrible communication), etc.

    But the thing that gets me the most is, I feel like no one wants to work with me because I’m a relative newbie – I’ve been doing data work for about 3 years now, but we have a guy in our department who has been doing university data work for nearly 20 years, so everyone wants to work with him. My bosses are pleased with my work, but external staff drop comments like, “Maybe Damien can check on this too…” and request meetings with him on my projects. I’ve talked to my boss many times and asked if there is something I could do better, or if I’m not meeting goals, and he assures me I’m doing well and that there’s nothing to worry about. I just feel my confidence shake every time someone hints that they’d rather work with Damien. I guess I should just let that part go since my own boss is pleased with my work. I get that these people know Damien better, and he does have more experience, but it would be nice to be given a chance.

    Any thoughts on nicer, more professional wordings of the above for job applications would be appreciated!

    1. NW Mossy*

      Are you open to jobs outside academia? I sit right next to our BI analyst (I work for an insurance company), and both he and the role are new to our company. We’re so thrilled to have someone that can help us organize and use our mountains of data that the fact that he’s young and doesn’t have decades of experience is a total non-issue. The fact that he’s interested in learning our business and can deal with our crazy legacy databases with a positive attitude is way more important.

      You might find a good match in for-profit industry if you seek out companies looking to explore BI, and it’s a good story to tell in the interview – “I’m looking for a role where I can help launch BI in an organization and show its value.”

      1. Rincat*

        Oh yes, in fact I don’t really want another academia job! My previous job before this one was at a private university. I’m ready for something different! That gives me hope though, thanks!

    2. Dawn*

      Just say you’re leaving to seek out opportunity for growth- it’s true, and it’s a totally normal reason to be looking for a new job!

      1. Rincat*

        Thank you! That’s what I’ve used in the past and was wondering if it’s still legit. I’ve been at my current job almost seven years so I’m feeling pretty gun shy.

        1. Dawn*

          Totally legit! Even better if you can make it about a specific area of growth, since you were at your job for so long. “After working with chocolate teapots, specifically artisan filigreed handles, spouts, and lids I have realized that I want to seek out more opportunity to focus on the fluid dynamics of teapot spouts and this job opening is perfect for that because [reasons]” Completely normal reason to want to go to a new job, especially if you can point to old job and say “they were all about handles, spouts, and lids, and I want to do more fluid dynamics.”

  107. Emily*

    Is it at all reasonable to ask for more vacation time at an end of year review? I’ve worked at my current company for just over a year (October 2015) and love it – the people are great, and the work is great. However, the vacation time is awful! I had no vacation time, no sick time, and no personal days through the end of 2015 (which I realize isn’t too uncommon.) In January 2016, I received 5 vacation days (which already isn’t great in itself), but was told I had to wait until I’d been with the company a full year to receive any sick & personal days (at which point, I’d only receive a combined 2 days for sick/personal time). I have been sick once since I’ve started here (back in February) and had to use a vacation day, since I didn’t have any sick time available. I have only used 2 other vacation days in addition to the day I was out sick, and have never been out of the office since I started, aside from those 3 days. Today, I got my first paystub since I crossed the 1-year threshold, so I’d expected to see the 2 personal/sick days show up in the ‘available time off’ section. However, it was not on the paycheck, so I reached out to HR, who informed me I had to be there a full calendar year (January 1-December 31) before I gained any personal/sick days. So, in sum, I started my job in October of 2015, and will not get any personal/sick days until January of 2017 (and, only 2 combined personal/sick days even then). I might mention that I also only get 1 week (5 days) of vacation next year, and only accrue 2 personal/sick days each year, until I hit my 5-year mark, in which I will get 3 personal/sick days. I’m a high performing employee who has only been gone 3 days since I have started, all of which have been taken as vacation days. Is it unreasonable to ask for more days off? I’m not sure how strictly my specific branch has to follow corporate policies (I work for one of many sub-branches of a larger corporate office), however, when I interviewed for my position, my now-supervisor told me there was some “wiggle room” in terms of taking days off. Any and all thoughts/comments would be appreciated!

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would feel it out. Ask in the review how much wriggle room there is and how it works. Discuss that part of the reason you were okay with the “official” benefits was because you understood there was some wiggle room and you would like to be aware of how to deal with that.

      If you get a heavy “why are you even asking about this” vibe or other discouragement, don’t go for it. If they talk about the wiggle room freely and easily, ask if there’s any way to make some of it official, as you’d just like to be covered in case there’s an issue. If you get turned down for it, you do – but you’ll at least know how to use the wiggle room now when you’d like to.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      This. Is. Ridiculous. I assume you’re full time? Do they just expect you to not be sick, or have any dependents who get sick, for two years?

      Yes, I’d bring it up. I would also consider moving on (if you can) if you don’t get it, because this is a company that has unreasonable expectations of employees.

  108. 4WordsUp*

    If there’s a camera in your (personal) office, do you ever get paranoid that someone may be watching you? Our cameras our regularly used so others can watch in (think certain interviews, etc). Nothing like that happens in my office, but there’s no way to tell if someone is watching. I get a little paranoid thinking someone may see me read a book or check out my phone (during a break or lunch), sometimes I like to get up and stretch periodically or do a little calisthenics. What must they think, lol.

    1. Anon Marketer*

      This might not help you, but my first job had a camera in various rooms, what I was told for target market testing, etc. Turns out the owner would leave the mic on to record all our conversations! I didn’t learn this until after my downsizing, but how creepy is that! Now I just smile and wave at any cameras I’m come across!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      You’re not paranoid. I believe legally your employer can record you with that camera (assuming you’re not in the bathroom or something). That said, who has the time to watch that footage?

      One time I was asked to review security camera footage for a particular event, and it was annoying to have to fast-forward through to figure out what happened.

      I work in IT for a school, and we often get asked by students if we read their emails. As if we have time for that! But if the administration wants to investigate an incident, we certainly will help them dig in.

  109. Confused Teapot Maker*

    TL;DR Version: I’m having some communication problems with my line manager and they’ve started to flag it with their boss, putting me in line for getting in serious problem. My communication style isn’t perfect but the line manager is partly at fault here as well – how do I bring this up with him without making matters worse, given that communication is not our strong point?

    Rant Version: My line manager, who we shall call Fergus, is making my work day very difficult with the amount of miscommunications going on between us. My communication style isn’t perfect – I can ramble a bit, I can speak too fast, I can assume people know things that they don’t and these are all things I’m working on – but Fergus is at least partly to blame. Some examples would be:

    – Fergus and I sat down with the big bosses to sort out the timelines for Project A and Project B. Fergus was keen to get Project B done first, but his two managers were more keen on Project A, so we decided to do Project A for completion in a fortnight and Project B for the week after and I have notes in my notepad to this extent. A week later, Fergus asks me if I’m close to finishing Project B, to which I say, no, because I’m still working on Project A. To which, Fergus flips out about me not doing what we agreed on and makes me rush out Project A to make up for it.
    – Fergus asked me what I thought of Project C. I said I wasn’t sure, there were details that looked important but I wanted to see how certain things developed before I made my next move. He seemed fine with that. I then got an email from Fergus saying another colleague had explained the project in a different way and blamed me for not taking explaining it to him like that as well. I was incredibly annoyed at this because I had already told Fergus that I wasn’t totally convinced on certain aspects and wanted more time before submitting a final proposal.
    – Fergus was told me on Friday he was keen to hear about the progress on Project D. I told him what had happened so far and told him I would update him when I could. Then, on Monday, I told Fergus about some progress on Project D and he asked me why I was bothering with such a small detail. Admittedly, it was a small detail, but Fergus had left me under the impression he was keen to be fully informed on the project.

    I’m not the only person I’ve noticed things like this happening to either. For example, I once overheard Fergus telling a colleague off for not flagging a deadline with him – this colleague had no reason to flag a deadline with him, as he wasn’t her line manager. I’ve also heard him tell somebody he might be interested in a project, but then, an hour later when this person had been doing some prep work, Fergus snapped at them for doing so because he had said he wasn’t interested in that project (my colleague had been sat opposite me the entire time so, unless Fergus told him he wasn’t interested over email, Fergus hadn’t spoken to him within that hour).

    The problem now is that Fergus has started to flag my shortcomings with his bosses and, as my workplace has the tenancy to fire people over quite small things, I think my job is on the line. The incident in particular they flagged was Project C. When Fergus’ boss flagged it with me that Fergus was annoyed I hadn’t explained the project in a way that was clear with him, I apologised and explained that the facts weren’t totally clear to me at that point, which she seemed fine with but I’m starting to worry if Fergus is going to make this into a thing about my performance and start bringing it up regularly.

    I would say part of the problem is that Fergus doesn’t want to hear about things which we haven’t processed all the details ourselves on yet, but there have also been occasions where Fergus has encouraged us to flag new projects, even if we’re not sure what the next step is, if there’s the chance they could be important, so now I’m just confused!!

    Is there anyway I can turn this around? If not, and I get fired or pushed out, how do I explain this situation without looking like a difficult employee – I don’t want to look like I’m blaming my line manager but I don’t want people to think mistakes like these are entirely my fault?

      1. animaniactoo*

        Request a meeting with Fergus’ boss. Tell them that you’re getting conflicting info from Fergus and you’re not sure how to handle it. Ignore Project C which they already know about and genuinely could have been somewhat on you for not having details yet or not being able to explain well enough.

        Talk about the Project B vs Project A thing – because Fergus is in the wrong there, and it’s possible that by pushing you to rush Project A to get go B, you ended up making some mistakes or that it wasn’t the best work that you could have produced if you had the full time that was agreed on for Project A. So you’re concerned about that for this and future situations.

        Talk about Project D in a sense of “I would like to get a handle on whether this kind of update was so small that I shouldn’t have given it. I’m having issues figuring out what Fergus wants, and would like some extra perspective on this.”

        1. Confused Teapot Maker*

          Thanks for the advice. To be honest, I would prefer to tackle this with Fergus directly first as I don’t want to go “behind his back” when this could have been sorted out face to face. The problem with that is that he has the tendency to me snappy in his moods – sometimes things like this happen and he goes “Oh, that makes sense” and carries on, sometimes he snaps, treats you like you’re stupid, starts blaming you for everything, threatens to have you fired etc. It’s tricky to tell just how he’ll react!

          To clarify on Project C, the problem wasn’t so much that I didn’t have complete information, as we’re in an industry where things can develop quite quickly so, while it’s always the ideal to have all the information, I’ve always been told it’s expected that this won’t always be the case (either that or my previous bosses have been REALLY understanding!!). So I said something along the lines to Fergus of “I think point 4 in Project C could be quite problematic but I’d like to see how some outside factors develop before pushing on it heavily”, and he said “Ok. For today though, could you concentrate on Project F?”

          About 20 minutes later, a colleague told Fergus that she though point 4 was actually quite a big deal and she’d like to get started immediately. That’s when I got the email asking me why I hadn’t made more of a fuss about point 4. It really annoyed be because I’d clearly stated I thought it was worth keeping an eye on but I wasn’t sure yet, and was then told to focus my efforts elsewhere (plus, if I’m going to be slightly petty, I could add that Project C turned out to be FAR less important than Project F, so, while perhaps wrong to underplay it, I was right not to pretend it was some kind of massive business-ending deal!!). So, my problem with Project C isn’t so much that people are blaming me for not having enough information (because I didn’t have perfect information and can hardly take issue with that), it’s more that it’s being ignored that I clearly stated it could develop into something that was a big deal, if that makes sense.

          But I think your point about Project D does hit the nail on the head – I’ve had bosses who want to know my every single though, I’ve had bosses who trust my opinion enough to only flag things I think are major. Fergus seems to flip-flop between both. Thanks.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Ugh. But for some of your more specific emails, (like him wanting to be updated on Project) I would think if this does get taken up with your boss, couldn’t you point to that.

      Or email him with/reply to his email with “Because you don’t want to do Project X, this will be assigned to Person B” sort of thing, with his own email underneath? Paper trail, plus if he didn’t mean it, then he can respond?

      I don’t know…inconsistent people drive me nuts…especially if they won’t admit to being inconsistent! If they come back and say “hey, I know I said X, but now I thought about it and I do want to do Y” it’s better

      1. Confused Teapot Maker*

        Unfortunately, most of this is verbal communication and, because our company culture is very big on face-to-face communication, “nudging” Fergus to deal with me on email would be nigh on impossible! Shame, actually, because, in the odd moments I do communicate with Fergus on email, things go much smoother.

        I agree with the inconsistency. My industry is quite fast paced and things can change at a moment’s notice. I wouldn’t mind if Fergus was to come over and, for example, say “I know bosses wanted Project A done first but, actually, I’ve looked over the client books and I now really need you to put a rush on Project B”. But Fergus seems to be in the habit of deciding these things and then snapping when people can’t read his mind. In fairness to him, he’s under a lot of pressure so perhaps he forgets he hasn’t had these conversations but still…/rant

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Following up a conversation with an email should be helpful here. (It isn’t guaranteed to be, but it should be!) So every time you have a conversation with Fergus, you send an email that says something like, “Thanks for speaking with me about our priorities for this week. We agreed that I would focus on Project A through completion and then get on Project, which should be next week. Is that your understanding of where we left things?” It probably won’t fix everything, but at least it will give you some backup.

  110. Xarcady*

    I’m temping, and hoping at some point to go permanent. But right now, there’s a lot of down time–waiting for other departments to do their thing and move the work on over to us. The other departments are constantly going past their deadlines, but my department is the last stop before the client gets the job, so we are usually rushed trying to finish things on time.

    As a result, instead of sending me home when there’s no work, my supervisor wants me to be here, ready to work on stuff the moment it arrives. Which is fine by me!

    However, I sometimes have hours at my desk with nothing to do. It feels odd to be just surfing the net or reading when co-workers walk by. And I am trying to make a good impression, in the hopes of getting hired.

    Can anyone suggest sites where I could learn more about MS Project or Excel? Or any other useful software? Or anything else I could while waiting that wouldn’t look too bad? (I’ve been here two hours today and done nothing. I need to do something. Preferably something that engages my brain.)

    1. me again*

      edx.org has all kinds of free classes.

      Sometimes Groupon has good deals that you can see if your company is willing to pay for. I can’t comment on quality of vendors with that one.

  111. Natalie*

    Ugh, the owner of the job I started 2 months ago is now, somewhat suddenly, selling part of the business. It will still be operating but it’s completely unclear how long, and in what capacity. I’m so fvcking burned out on job searching after doing it for 10 months and I’m really disappointed because this was a good opportunity to grow. Boo. Booooooooo.

      1. Natalie*

        Well, right now we’re not even sure what will happen. The official story is that this new owner will keep running the company, but my boss’s suspicion is that they’re basically buying our customer list and will probably start bringing things in-house slowly. Whether or not I would keep my job would probably depend on whether they continue running an office in this state and how centralized their accounting department is.

        It’s not really the unemployment that worries me as I can just go with my original school-finishing plan. But I was excited about this job specifically because the company is big enough to have a complex accounting and a CFO who I worked closely with, but small enough to be a little more flexible on who does what. And we were both new so we were in the process of remaking this accounting department to be more efficient and modern and such. It was a big change from my last, super hierarchical job where I had gotten my tasks down to half a FTE but wasn’t allowed to take on anything else accounting related. I’m really disappointed about that aspect of it.

  112. Confuddled Anon*

    I’m going under a different name for this.

    First off, I’ll admit I, proverbially, sh** where I ate. I dated a co-worker (briefly, they ended it–I’ll keep the details vague). This isn’t about that. Not really. We’ve kept it professional. However, I recently had a source close to me tell me of some…not so great things about them. Scary things. This person has made repeated vague statements regarding raping me (not using the term rape), even after our breakup. This person got so angry with me they drew blood in their mouth. I’ve let HR know what I can, but there’s not much they can do. I shake and go into near panic attacks about this, but I’m not willing to leave my job. I go to therapy, but this is affecting my mindset, my work, how much proximity I can get to this person, and otherwise make my uncomfortable. I’ve told HR I don’t want to be on any more projects with this person, but I’m not sure how long I can go without breaking down (we’re not on talking terms). I’m exhausted my options and I’m not sure how to handle this.

    Advice?

    1. Jenbug*

      You’ve only heard this second hand or you have witnessed it/experienced it first hand? If you’re hearing it second hand, there is a chance that the information is not accurate.

      1. Confuddled Anon*

        I have not witnessed the not so great things, but the statements about raping me and the anger, I have.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Not much they can do? Really? The person is making threatening statements, that another person corroborates, and there’s nothing they can do? What kind of things does this person have to do before your HR department WILL do something?

      I’d take the source with me or get a statement from them and contact HR again. Tell them flat out that you feel unsafe. This is a huge liability for them if they shrug you off and something happens.

  113. Stonkle*

    After 4 months two temp agencies I registered with have finally contacted me for work (of course it’s the same time). I have a final interview for job #1 through agency #1 on Monday morning, and then an interview for job #2 with agency #2 later on Monday morning. I imagine job #1 will make their decision regarding who they want to hire by that afternoon. Job #2 may take longer. However, I’d prefer job #2 because the pay is better, the commute is better, and the term is for 3 months rather than 2 1/2 weeks. I’m not sure how to stall with the agency if job #1 chooses me. They won’t be particularly understanding if I reveal that I am waiting to hear back about a job through their competition.
    Thoughts?

    1. Ris29*

      Do you have all the offer/package/benefits information? Maybe you could tell company 1 that you would like the week to read through the offer and the package? I def. wouldn’t mention that you’re waiting to hear back from another job.

    2. animaniactoo*

      If job 2 is going to take a couple of weeks to make a decision (ask them about their timeline!) you could be just about done with job 1 in time to take job 2 and then negotiate a day or so difference in start date if you have to.

  114. DevAssist*

    Anyone have any thoughts on eating at your desk? My boss absolutely DOES NOT allow it.

    I try to wake up early enough to eat breakfast at home (or if I make a smoothie, in the car) because I have a bit of a commute. Since we can’t eat at our desks, I feel like I can’t clock in and then immediately go to the kitchen to scarf down my breakfast, because I think my coworkers will perceive that as me finding a way to be a slacker (I’m hourly and in a workplace where every minute needs to be accounted for, but only because my boss- IMHO- doesn’t treat us like adults).

    1. Fabulous*

      I always eat at my desk, especially breakfast. I can’t eat at home – it’s way too early to eat and I’d get hungry at 10am for lunch. I don’t understand not being allowed to eat at your desk. Unless you’re in a customer service role and on the phone with clients all day (and thus shouldn’t have crinkly wrappers in the background or chomping in ears) and your food isn’t highly aromatic, then I don’t see a problem.

      1. DevAssist*

        I do talk to customers on the phone, but not until like a half hour or hour after we begin our workday. I have plenty of time to eat something that isn’t messy at my desk as I check emails, listen to voice mails, etc., but my boss finds it unprofessional and worries about damage to the computers. I usually eat a snack around 11AM, and even that (which is just a protein bar) is not okay. I have to stop my work and step away from my desk.

    2. Emily*

      I eat at my desk every day. I work in customer service and answer phones throughout the day, but it’s not difficult to finish chewing before picking up a call. I start work at 7:30, so if I ate before work, I’d be starving long before my lunch break rolled around. I generally eat a small bag of dry cereal or a granola bar around 9. My coworkers eat at their desks, too, and no one has ever had a problem with it. I think your boss’s rule is silly.

    3. CR*

      That’s so bizarre. I don’t eat lunch at my desk but I do like to snack there. I have a tendency to mindlessly shove food into my face when I’m bored.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Unless you work in a lab or something, I don’t think there’s any reason to ban eating at your desk! Your boss is strange.

      I eat breakfast and lunch at my desk and nobody has a problem with it. One employee in my office HATES the smell of food, but he can’t do anything about it. However, I wish the new girl would stop bringing her fast food in… it smells much worse than everyone else’s homemade stuff.

    5. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      Eat a few steps away from your desk if that’s at all a possibility. I eat at my desk more often than not, but I can be seen chowing down on a bowl of Lucky Charms in the hallway right after filling up my bowl with milk.

    6. Emilia Bedelia*

      Is there a reason you can’t eat, then clock in? Maybe mention it offhand to your coworkers (“I’m going to try coming in early to eat before I clock in”, “Well, done with my Cheerios, time to clock in!”, etc) if you’re worried about perception? You could maybe even tie this into a conversation with your boss where you emphasize that his rule inconveniences you- “Since you don’t want us eating at our desks, I just wanted to give you a heads-up that I’m going to be coming in early to eat before I clock in.”

      I eat breakfast every day at work because I like to have coffee with my breakfast, and I’d rather get free coffee at work than make it myself. I (and basically everyone else) eat lunch at my desk too. As grown ups, we are all pretty capable of cleaning up after ourselves, so I don’t think there’s been any issues with leaving a mess. I think your boss is being silly.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This could work, if the boss is okay with it. I eat at my desk too–breakfast and lunch (I can’t eat before I come in and I don’t take an actual lunch break so I can leave early to beat traffic). We all do it; we just try not to stink people out.

        1. DevAssist*

          Yeah, Boss wouldn’t be okay with that. For one, I can’t arrive any earlier than I already do, and I do not even have a key for the building to be able to come in a few minutes early. Only one of the people in my office (besides our boss) has a key, and she arrives at our start time, on the dot.

          At closing time, we are basically kicked out of the building once we clock out so that we aren’t on the premises while not on the clock.

    7. Jules the First*

      I had a job for a while where we were not allowed anything but water at our desks – but the point was that they thought we worked too hard and needed the excuse (and boss’ blessing) to take a break. Can you shift your morning meal later into your day so that it falls on a more normal break time? Split breakfast into two snacks – one you eat at home, one mid-morning stepping away from your desk?

    8. E*

      Is there a lunch room where you could take your breakfast and some important paperwork to review at the beginning of the day? You’d be working, eating, and not eating at your desk. Technicalities, I’m sure. Or even make it a 5-10 minute breakfast meeting with a coworker if you’ve got a joint project or tasks to coordinate.

    9. Chaordic One*

      As long as you aren’t spilling things on, or getting greasy fingerprints on paperwork, and as long as the food isn’t stinky I don’t see the problem.

  115. LadyKelvin*

    Good news! Or as I told my husband Continuing Resolution News! (I need to get out of DC…) The job I was in the running for emailed me to tell me I am still in the running, but the organization needs a copy of my finished degree in order to move forward (read: make me an offer). I’m not done with my degree yet but will be in December, and I emailed my contact and let him know my timeline and said, I understand if you can’t wait until I am done, but I would be disappointed to miss out on the job opportunity. And he responded and said he could wait! I talked to my boss today who had a long conversation with him about career opportunities out there and he’s really excited that I basically have a job offer (and it sounded like he wasn’t surprised to hear my contacts conversation with me). So I maybe have a job, to start in January. In Hawai’i where I have been hoping to move since I realized I couldn’t stay in Miami. Now I just need to get my dog ready for the move with all her shots and bloodwork and my husband needs to start looking for a job. We’ve already decided to go if/when I get the offer.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      That’s awesome!! I hope the opportunity in Hawai’i is everything you need it to be. Good luck!!

  116. Pineapple Incident*

    I’m so frustrated with my job search, and still looking but wanting to just give up and get a second job in retail or something. I just lost out last week on a really great job at a stellar company- the commute would have been long, but after interviewing there I was in love with the role and the team I’d have been working with. The decision came down to me and one other person, which I almost wish I didn’t know because it doesn’t help that I *almost* had it.

    Now when I’m reading job descriptions, I can’t get excited about anything else or picture myself in the role. Has anybody else had this happen to them? How do I get past this? I know the ship has sailed, but I’m having trouble pushing the idea of this awesome job out of my head.

    1. Lolly Scrambler*

      I feel the same! I know it is affecting my job search because I can’t show enthusiasm for the job when I can’t imagine getting the job at all anymore.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Well here’s the thing – the fact that you almost got it means that you ARE a strong candidate for that kind of job and are more likely than many others to be able to get it.

      The near miss is frustrating, but it also means you’re not shooting at the moon – you’re shooting for something that IS in your range. So you missed this target by a squidgen. Refocus and take another shot (or 6). You’re close enough to hitting the bullseye that you have a realistic shot of doing it in the near future.

      How’s that for a pep talk?

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        I do appreciate that perspective. The only frustrating thing about it is that this job was kind of a snowflake- it’s hard to find an entry/intern level position in the occupational safety field in my area, which is what I’m looking to do. I’m in public health originally, just not super interested in the other more traditional jobs in the field

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        I do appreciate the perspective- thanks :)

        I hate how hard it is to find other jobs like this one- I’m looking to break into an entry/intern level occupational safety/health role in the DC area, and they’re just hard to find. This job felt like my snowflake.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Okay, going with the theme here – snowflakes are seasonal. They come back around again, even if we have to wait longer than we’d want in between. ;)

          (and if we’re not checking the forecast, we’re absolutely going to miss that they’re on the horizon…)

    3. Bad Candidate*

      Yep. I hear ya. I applied for a job last night after work and got a rejection email this morning, like it was the first thing on the HR person’s todo list for the day. :\

    1. fposte*

      Three things to consider:
      Does it give you a skill or dimension that you don’t otherwise have on your resume?
      Were you there long enough for it to be significant?
      Are you a recent enough graduate for it to be prominent in your landscape?

      A summer in Oxford studying English Lit disappears from the resume fast, if it was ever on at all; a year in Nanjing studying Chinese history in Mandarin when you’re a research scientist stays on a lot longer. Most experience will fall somewhere in between there.

    2. ZSD*

      I would say that if you’ve graduated within the last four or five years, it’s fine to list it, but after that, unless it’s directly relevant as fposte suggests, I’d leave it off. And honestly, if you prefer to take it off sooner, that’s fine. I think I took mine off at the same time I took off my GRE scores, fellowships, etc.

  118. LAI*

    Can I ask for time off for my nephew’s birth? It’s the first kid in my family and I really want to be with my sister. My office is generous with time off but they usually expect you to plan it well in advance and this I wouldn’t be able to plan. Is this a normal kind of workplace request?

    1. bb-great*

      I think it’s worth asking. You’d be able to give them a rough window so maybe that will be enough for them, especially if you’re only going to take a few days.

    2. fposte*

      Are you otherwise an employee in good standing and you haven’t been pushing PTO into the red? I think that’s something you can ask your manager about. You’re asking for a day or possibly two (right?), and you know roughly the expected time but obviously there are no guarantees. You might even use a phrase like “birth coach” if you think it’s close enough–it makes you sound integral.

      1. Confused Teapot Maker*

        +1 to this.

        If you’re workplace is generous with the time off, I don’t see them as being the kind of people who will flip out if you were to give them a rough time you’d need to be off and roughly how long you’d need in advance.

      2. Graciosa*

        You might also talk about the steps you’re going to take to make sure it will be easy for others to cover for you when you have to leave on short notice. For example, keeping an always-current to do list or updated project status, making your calendar available to those who will need to cover meetings for you, or advising clients in advance about the possibility of your absence and specifying who will cover for you.

        In short, if this is important to you, make it easy for your boss to say “Yes.”

  119. Construction Safety*

    Just got our employee benefits guide for 2017. Neatly tucked away is the 60% increase for health insurance.

  120. Abc*

    So my company is switching to a new in-house software system and it is a buggy POS. My team’s efficiency has plummeted and all of us have been doing 50-hour weeks to accomplish what we used to do in 40. Everyone has been burnt out for the past month. Morale is at rock bottom. I used to generally like my job and now I hate it. All because of a computer program! We’ve tired telling the bosses that it isn’t working, but to no avail.

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      My computer is switching to a new internal ticking system Monday. I’ve heard from others in the industry that it’s better. Anyway, we had to site though some training this week.

      I’m one of the only people in the office that had basically nothing to do with the ticketing system. I make one ticket a week to one person.

      So in the training, they kept teaching all of these things that didn’t apply to me, and I kept having to say, “There is no a job function of mine that would require this.” Then at the very end, they started talking about a specific type of ticketing that needs to be used for anyone who works with one particular person in the office. The trainer turns to me and says it doesn’t apply and I say, “That person is literally the only person I send tickets to. This is the only part of training that DOES apply.”

      In any case, I’m sorry to hear things have slowed down with the new software.

    3. LAI*

      Do we work together? We are dealing with the same thing. It’s ridiculous. They actually pulled back one feature because it was so bug-ridden that it effectively didn’t work for 90% of users. Every process now takes at least 3-4 times longer than it used to.

  121. Brogrammer*

    I now feel like a real manager because I’ve gotten my first unsolicited resume (by email). I did open the attachment and read the resume because I will need to hire a couple of people soon.

    This was a 2-page resume from a recent grad. He has a full paragraph personal summary and a separate “core competencies” section. Under his current job he put eight, count them, eight bullet points. And there are more jobs in his work history.

    The best part is that one of his listed core competencies is “concise verbal and written interpersonal communication.”

    I don’t need any advice, I just wanted to share.

    2. Audiophile*

      How did he get your contact information? I’ve sent unsolicited resumes but just when companies have encouraged it.

      So I take it 8 bullet points is too many? I’ve seen a few resumes with about that number, but none were recent grads.

      1. Brogrammer*

        He probably found my information on our company website – I can be found that way. My title sounds more impressive than my actual job description, but I do supervise people and I will be growing my team soon.

        In this particular case, 8 bullet points were definitely too many. The job was a standard part-time student job (think campus gym, cafe, etc). He was clearly padding to get to two pages.

        If he’d written a good cover letter, I might have given him a chance. It’s entirely possible that someone with the appearance of authority (parent, professor, campus career center) gave him bad resume advice. This website has certainly been a major eye-opener as far as the bad advice being given to young people who don’t have the experience to see it for what it is. But there was no cover letter at all.

    3. CheeryO*

      I was a student mentor last fall for a bunch of college seniors, and virtually all of them had two page resumes with waaay too much detail about every part-time job, internship, and project. I can’t tell you how many bullet points and entire sections that I crossed out. I just hope they took the advice to heart, because I think there might be some questionable advice coming from their career office.

      1. Brogrammer*

        I hope they listened too! I did consider that this guy had gotten bad resume advice somewhere, but he didn’t write a cover letter so the bad resume was all I had to go on.

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      I’d be much more interested in “concise verbal and written intRApersonal communication”

  123. Anonymouse*

    Question about being a reference.
    If you had an intern who was fine, but not great, and who definitely had some flaws (rush to get things done, lack of attention to detail which is important in our work, coming across somewhat entitled), and you did try to work with her on the flaws but to some degree they kept happening, but at the same time you know that as a first time manager you did not do a perfect job either (probably should have been stricter, and cut back her tasks even more when she was making mistakes to make sure she could do 1 thing well instead of 3 things poorly, but you wanted to push her so she would learn a lot), and now she is asking if she can use you as a reference, what do you say?
    My honest reference would be that she learned a lot while she was with us, but that I don’t think she’s ready for a fulltime job in our field, and that she does not have great attention to detail. I don’t want to ruin her chances of finding a job of course, and she has not graduated yet so I know she will still learn more and may be more prepared by the end of next year. I also know she does not have a lot of options for references as she does not have much work experience.
    Do I agree to be a reference but let her know that it would not be 100% positive? Do I just give a generic reference, i.e. say she was fine as an intern and learned a lot and leave it at that? What can one really expect from an intern; maybe she was the norm? (the problem is we had another intern who’s clearly a superstar, so the comparison does not do her any favors) Or do I say I cannot be a reference? I don’t necessarily want to do the latter, she was not terrible, she was just… mediocre.

    1. fposte*

      “I don’t think she’s ready for a fulltime job in our field” is pretty damning. And to be honest, your overall description sounds mostly like “I recommend her because she never stole anything.”

      If that’s accurate, I would consider declining–common phraseology is “I think other people would be able to give you a stronger reference than I could.” Keep in mind that unless you’re talking about writing a reference letter your contact will probably have specific questions, so you don’t want to say yes if you think you’re going struggle with variants of “she was fine and learned a lot” in answer to different questions.

      I know it’s hard to say no to a reference, but sometimes it’s the right thing to do. This may be one of those times.

      1. Dovahkiin*

        fposte has the perfect phrasing for this.

        Also – don’t beat yourself up. I LOVE managing interns, but it can be a total crapshoot sometimes and it can be tough to manage young people with no work experience which seems to be more and more common in interns. If you think you might be expecting too much out of your interns (which I have been guilty of in the past), ask the superstars and previous interns if they’d be willing to get a coffee and give you an honest take on their internship there. Be upfront and say you’re trying to make sure the internship program you have is fair and properly prepares people for the field.

  124. Jennifer*

    Well, it’s been a week. I had one coworker in my new group sit me down and basically tell me all kinds of horrible things about myself. That was a joy. Clearly I am the worst person ever because I am easily stressed by being handed way too much stuff, or problems that I don’t know how to handle. Why can’t I just be happy and optimistic already?

    We had a very mandatory staff meeting yesterday. It appears that the biggest higher-ups at work (who are nice people but are so high muckety-muck that I don’t think they have much, if any, idea of what is going on around here) are starting to suspect we have problems. So the #2 person handed out pieces of paper and gave us 15 minutes to write anonymous* commentary on our space, workloads, staffing issues, team spirit, and leadership. To quote one coworker, she could have used and a lot more pages and time. I heard from several people afterwards that they were very blunt about using words like “bullying” and all kinds of stuff. I’m amazed they had the nerve to say that, I guess they don’t care if they get identified at this point. I was very cautious and didn’t mention stuff like that, stuck to “you need to hire more people” that it sucks that nobody can get any kind of raise or rank boost. I do wonder if they’re going to start showing everyone’s quotes at the next meeting though :/ I hope not. This should be an eye-opener, but who knows if they can figure out what to do about everyone being miserable.

    * though since we’ve all had to fill out pieces of paper with our signatures on them, I’m sure all of us can be identified by handwriting very easily.

    Also, there was one desk I used to sit at–anyone who sits there gets hand problems. My coworker had surgery after being there for nine months. I only used it for about a month and I had hand pain. Now #3 finally had enough complaints to finally get an ergonomic eval (which the office didn’t want to do) and I gather the verdict was “you have shoved too many people too close together in a space and nobody can lean back.” We’ll see if they do anything about that either.

    My boss also suggested that we pay a few hundred dollars for a service so I don’t have to spend six hours proofreading and got shot down hard. Whee.

      1. Jennifer*

        I don’t know any more. I haven’t gotten any interviews outside of my organization in the 5 years of searching (I get about 1 per year at the org and then get told I’m not perfect enough because I haven’t done 1 thing before), and it seems like all people need outside of here are entry level phone answers and receptionists, which I don’t want to do. I’m really tired of looking and not getting anywhere.

        Current job is slightly improving other in some respects, and they would be screwed without me at this point in time, so…. I think this is where I’m intended to be. It’s just not great. But…could be worse, I suppose.

  125. YRH*

    HR rep called me on Tuesday and left me a voicemail. I called her back about an hour later and left her a voicemail. While I was walking home, I realized I had called her back through the main Office number and not the number she had left on my voicemail. Wednesday morning, I called her back on the number she had left and left a voicemail there. She had not called me back at all. When should I try to call her again if I don’t here from her?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I probably would let it go from here; although if I contacted the rep it would probably be only 1 more time.
      But others with more experience might have a better sense of how to handle this.

  126. Sunny Delite*

    Hi everyone. I’ll try to give the condensed version, but this is weighing heavily on me and I could use some advice.

    I work as an exec assistant in a large corporation. Our department recently had an opening for an admin assistant, whose workload & pay grade are aligned with an exec assistant, even though the title is different. I immediately thought of a friend of mine that I used to work with and who was hoping to move to a new company. I referred her, she passed all of the screening & interviews and got hired. This is in the same industry as the previous company, so I thought it might be a good fit.

    The problem? She cannot do the job AT ALL. When we last worked together 4 years ago, we had the same job title, some of the same team members (overlapped) and I thought we were also working at the same skill level. Boy oh boy, was I completely wrong. She cannot even complete the most basic tasks like setting up meetings through someone’s calendar, accepting meeting invites, monitoring her boss’s email, etc.

    The job posting was very clear on what skills were required and what the job was going to entail: heavy calendar management, arranging travel, planning events, etc. She admitted that she has never done any of these things before and is now overwhelmed. In the 3 weeks she’s been here, she has broken down crying each day, tells me she is totally overwhelmed and wants to go back to her old job. This is not a matter of poor training, as I personally have spent 30 hours with her and 4 of my admin colleagues have also spent time with her each day. After I had a very long discussion with her, it was revealed that her resume & LinkedIn profiles contain lies and mention the very skills she doesn’t have, so she bluffed her way through the recruiter and manager interviews.

    We are all spending time showing her how to do “Admin 101” tasks, not things that are specific to our company. She’s also on a 3 week vacation right now that she had preplanned before she took the job, so any progress made will be lost and we’ll have to start all over again when she returns. She shows zero initiative to find things out on her own and it’s really clear that none of the stuff all 5 of us have been training her on is sinking in. She asks the same questions 10 times and despite making notes, does not refer back to them at all. She has been given lots of tools on where to find the information she needs (email links, handouts, printed notes I’ve made for her) but she is just. not. getting. it.

    I’ve spoken to my boss, her boss and HR about this, as they all wanted my feedback. Her boss is very passive and after my conversation with him, I don’t think he’s going to do anything. His attitude and comments are, “Well, she’s new, she needs time to adjust, be patient…” Her probation period is 6 months, so they could justifiably get rid of her. I told him this is not a matter of new job jitters and that she does not have the skills they need.

    How should my colleagues & I move forward once she returns from vacation? I am so upset about this crappy person that I referred, who is turning out to be a nightmare. I obviously did not know her anywhere near as well as I thought I did.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      It’s not your fault. It’s the job of the hiring manager to screen for competency, even if you recommend her. Treat her like any other incompetent colleague and let her sink or swim on her own.

    2. animaniactoo*

      #1 – If they don’t let her go, the next time she comes to you with a question, refer her back to her notes that she’s not consulting.

      Your sole goal now is to NOT REPEAT INFORMATION more than 2 or 3 times. Your barrier and boundary is clear – she’s got to figure out organizing her notes into something she can refer to quickly. You don’t care if getting an answer from you is quicker, because the point is for her to learn how to get the answer herself from information she has already been given so that she can *stop* consulting you (and others). That is what you need to be clear with her on, and enforce from your side.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, start to cut her lose. She bluffed her way into the job, she knew she would have to work like crazy to cover the bluff and she is refusing to work like crazy.

        Don’t work like crazy for her. Set boundaries and stick to them each time every time. No exceptions.
        When she grips about the work, tell her, “I am not telling you anything that I do not do myself. I am doing all these things we are talking about. This is what the job is.”

    3. NicoleK*

      Your coworker reminds me of a coworker at a previous job. The only difference was that I did not refer. No matter how frustrated you get with her, try not to let it show. Try to remain calm, professional, and helpful as you can.

  127. NW Mossy*

    In light of the conversation we were having earlier this week about kids in the office, I wanted to ask the AAM community what they think are the right boundaries for parents at the office. I’m mom to a kindergartner and a 5-month-old and while I’d never bring them to the office unless they were specifically invited to a social event (which has happened only once), the comments on this week’s letter make me concerned that I’m still crossing the line, especially for those that feel very strongly against kids in the workplace.

    I don’t hide that I have children – I have pictures of them in my cube, I’ll respond if someone asks me how they are, and I’ll share a little more with those that I know have kids of a similar age and have expressed interest in knowing more about mine. For non-parents or parents with kids of a different age range, I try not to exceed mentions more excessive than 5 minutes per month.

    If you’re really not into kids or talking about them is hard because of your own personal history, would this approach upset you or make you uncomfortable? I’m thinking I may need to ramp back to be more sensitive to others, as it’s a lot easier for me to hide my kids’ existence than it is for someone else to ignore pictures or comments. Thoughts?

    1. Allypopx*

      As someone who really doesn’t like kids, I think that’s fine. YMMV on pictures – personal desk pictures aren’t a huge culture thing in my office, so I don’t know if they would bother me or not, but I can’t really imagine being made uncomfortable by personal photos unless it was like a full wall collage that you were clearly trying to solicit comments from (I’m guess that’s not the case). And responding to questions specifically put to you is also incredibly normal – and the people asking might find it weird or cold if you didn’t.

      I think you’re overthinking it. You seem like you’re being socially conscious. If people are giving you clear “get me out of this conversation” signals, listen to them. Otherwise, if you’re in an office culture that talks about personal life stuff, your kids are a huge part of your personal life, and you should feel comfortable talking about them.

    2. Manders*

      I don’t think that’s excessive! I know there are a lot of reasons why someone might feel sensitive about bearing or raising children on a personal level, but having to hide the fact that childhood exists at all or that some coworkers have children seems way over the top.

      It would be like refusing to ever mention doing anything with a romantic partner just because your coworker might be single, or never ever mentioning your parents just in case one of your coworkers has a complicated relationship with their parents. There’s a difference between deliberately poking a spot you know to be sore and making polite conversation about totally normal things that exist in your life.

    3. Anon for this*

      No, that wouldn’t bother me at all. You sound perfectly fine.

      My problems are basically
      – parents being smug or condescending to people who don’t or can’t have children
      – parents deciding that random people in their surroundings are babysitters/are responsible for their kids somehow

      So that’s obnoxious behavior by a relatively small number of people. And you’re nowhere near it. I don’t think you need to worry about it.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Agreed. I don’t mind them unless you’re doing this junk. Or letting them scream while I’m trying to work.

        This poor woman at Walmart the other day–her little boy, no more than two and adorable as hell, was having a complete full-on meltdown. Poor little dude was tired and probably hungry (it was after five). You could hear it in his voice that he was beyond any reasoning. It took her a few minutes to get him out of earshot. This happens with very small children, and I do cut people some slack if Junior is freaking out and they’re trying to get him outside/to another area. It’s not like you can teleport!

        Also, I don’t mind looking at cute pictures, though if I start looking sad, don’t shove them in my face.

    4. Bad Candidate*

      None of that would bother me. Your desk is your desk, so I think you can have whatever pictures you want. In passing comments about kids is fine. Things that bother me are more like passing out copies of school photos to everyone. Or when your kids hugs me on bring your kid to work day. Oy. Still not over that one.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Letting your kid lie on the floor in an office blocking a filing cabinet your coworker needs to access is inconsiderate. Bringing your baby in excessively and insisting your coworkers ohh and ahh over them is in considerate. Making your coworkers watch your kid for any amount of time because you can’t/aren’t watching them is inconsiderate.
      Having them a an event that they are invited to, is not inconsiderate. Having pictures of them at your desk is not inconsiderate. Talking about them to people who are genuinely interested is not inconsiderate.

    6. AcidMeFlux*

      Maybe I’ve been living outside the USA for too long, but it astonishes me that people feel they have to apologize for mentioning their kids….”too often”? What the hell is that? There are 5 thousand things that can annoy me in a day of interactions with other humans (really, people, Breaking Bad finished a while back, and I’m sure you’re a master at Crossfit) and a few that could upset me depending on the day ( phhhhht… .anything to do with family) but I manage to suck it up. Or even ignore my silly, self-involved reaction against a certain aspect of your life. Because you have a right to live, and even talk about it.

  128. Anon for now*

    I had an interview last Monday, my references were checked Wednesday. The company was supposed to decide last week and contact the candidate this week. It’s now Friday and I’ve yet to hear back from them. Is this a bad sign? Do you think my references said something negative?

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      I would say sometime next week ask for a timeline update, after it’s been 2 weeks since they said they would get in touch (so maybe late next week). Hope you get good news.

  129. Mimmy*

    Most common at work, Mac or PC?

    After years of being a Windows PC user, I switched to an iMac in 2014. So I am exclusively an Apple products user. However, a computer instructor warned me recently that most workplaces operate on Windows PCs. I haven’t been in an office environment in several years, so I don’t know what is common these days.

    I’m pretty confident that I can get used to a Windows environment again, but I wanted to get everyone’s take.

    P.S. Feel better Alison!!

    2. Pwyll*

      I’ve only ever seen creative professionals with Macs in corporate environments. So, coders, graphic designers, etc. Everyone else had PCs. During my time in government, I literally never saw a mac even once.

      In the smaller businesses I’ve work with, many had a BYOD policy, so people used whatever they owned. Which caused the IT folks (namely me) untold headaches in curing file server incompatibility issues (because CEO insisted the cloud was evil, but really liked the idea of not having to buy people’s computers. Sigh.). But lots of small businesses are really embracing the cloud, and I know people who work in awesome places where using a Mac just works. But they tend to be tech companies, or startups that like to pretend they’re tech companies.

    3. fposte*

      Varies hugely by industry. We’re higher ed and we’re all Mac or dual boot these days, for instance. K-12 education skews Mac, too.

    5. Manders*

      I’ve never been in a workplace that didn’t use Windows. My office has one Mac for creative projects like video editing, but other than that everyone’s on a PC.

    6. animaniactoo*

      PCs for everybody except the creative departments (marketing, photography, design). Macs exclusively in the creative depts.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Heh. I’m cross-trained. I use PCs almost as well as I use Macs despite the fact that I haven’t been on one in almost 2 years. I think maybe I printed something from my dad’s house earlier this year (he’s cross-trained too, but he’s got PCs at home while I have Macs).

    7. FD*

      Our small office is evenly split–I’m the only employee and the rest are contractors, so everyone else buys their own equipment. The compatability issues are a major problem at times.

      Everywhere else I’ve worked, it’s all PC.

      1. De Minimis*

        Education-related non-profit, most of the “program people” use Macs, the back-office types use PCs.

    8. Chaordic One*

      Macs in creative businesses. In other offices PCs in about two thirds of them and Macs in the remaining third. In my experience most of the Mac offices used Windows for Mac.

  130. goodoldme*

    I volunteer at an organization with a big event coming up, normally helping out Employee A. Yesterday, Employee A gave me a certain task to do that was actually assisting Employee B, who was out of the office. She said that this work was pretty urgent and thus took priority over helping her with her projects. I asked a couple clarifying questions and then went ahead with the work. At the end of my shift, I emailed the completed items to Employees A and B, as suggested by Employee A.

    Just now, I got an email from Employee B, saying that I had been doing the whole task wrong, and to “please don’t jump in like that next time.” Employee B also said that it really inconveniences her and her manager to have to fix things like this.

    I agree that that sucks! However, since Employee B was not in the office, I had only Employee A’s explanation to go on, and I did what Employee A had explained needed to be done. How do I respond to Employee B? Employee A is the only person I have ever volunteered with previously, so I normally have no issues trusting her explanations of what I should be doing.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would simply e-mail back and say “It appears there was some miscommunication here somewhere, I was asked to do this by Employee A. If you can explain what I did wrong, I will be happy to fix it ASAP.”

    3. fposte*

      Oh, that sucks when people are annoyed at something that isn’t your fault and you don’t want to be all “I was just following orders!” But I think you can say “I’m so sorry, and I’m happy to help with any repair efforts; in future when I’m put on support for you, do you want me to clear it with you first?”

      1. goodoldme*

        Exactly! I definitely don’t want to give the image of “throwing Employee A under the bus,” but on the other hand, she is the only information I ever really have at all. I like your idea a lot; I think it will help ensure that we we won’t ever end up with that two degrees of separation problem again and she can just directly talk to me if I am helping her out.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Yeah, that’s why I was suggesting simply saying there was some miscommunication and that you were asked to work on the Project by Employee A, but not saying “And she gave me all the info on how to do it!” – just moving on and leaving it that you might have misunderstood Employee A’s directions, etc., but being clear that you didn’t just decide to “jump in” either.

          I think the check-in question is a great suggestion.

    4. ZVA*

      Before responding to Employee B, can you check in with Employee A to explain what happened and get her take? She may have some more info or a different perspective that will shape the way you respond.

      If you can’t check in with Employee A first, I’d say something like “So sorry about the inconvenience! [Employee A] asked me to help out with this project, and I understood from her that I needed to do [A, B, and C]—but it sounds like you actually need [X, Y, and Z], so I’ll make sure to do it that way next time.” (I’m going for a fairly light, helpful, but not overly apologetic tone.) Hopefully that will make it clear that you were following instructions (not just “jumping in”), but that you understand B’s frustration and are willing to doing it her way moving forward.

      1. goodoldme*

        Employee A was also CC’d on the email, so I was thinking perhaps I should wait for her to respond first(as mentioned by someone above)?

          1. goodoldme*

            The only reason I am hesitant to do that is that the email was specifically addressed to me (“Dear goodoldme”), which makes me feel like maybe I do need to respond?

            Also, thanks everyone. I really do feel bad to have messed up something for this person I don’t really know, so it’s nice to have people to talk it over with.

            1. fposte*

              It’s okay for somebody supervising you to respond on behalf of you; you just want to make sure the thing gets responded to.

              I might talk to or email A–“Does it make sense for you to respond to this, or should I go ahead and do it?”

            2. ZVA*

              I agree with fposte below: just check in with Employee A and see if she wants to respond or not. (That might also be a good time to get her take on the situation/figure out what went wrong, if you can, which should help you down the road.)

              Don’t feel too bad! I understand why you do, but this sounds like an honest mistake, and often the way people handle those matters more than the mistake itself… You’re clearly conscientious & want to do a good job, which should be apparent to everyone involved.

                1. goodoldme*

                  fposte and ZVA – I did end up e-mailing Employee A. She was very nice and said that she had already e-mailed Employee B to apologize for giving me the wrong information. It looks like the problem was that Employee A had sent me an outdated spreadsheet (instead of Employee B’s new spreadsheet), which I based the work off of.

                  Now, in the process of looking at the old and new spreadsheets, I noticed that there was some overlap where what I worked on could be useful (as the information had not changed). Should I bother mentioning that to Employee A, or should I just let the situation drop?

                2. ZVA*

                  goodoldme, I can’t respond to you below, so hopefully you’ll see this! Unless there’s some compelling reason to mention the overlap that I don’t know about, I would let it drop and move on. I’m glad Employee A stepped in, though!

      2. goodoldme*

        I did see your comment at the very bottom there, thanks for responding. The only reason I wanted to bring it up is that I did not want Employee B to have to re-do the tasks I had already done, if she did not realize they were completed. Simply as a time-saving thing. However, it turned out that Employee B realized that on her own. It looks like she was upset because I had accidentally done several tasks that are supposed to be done ONLY by her supervisor, but were marked differently on the old spreadsheet. Regardless, I think it will work out ok. Thanks again for your help.

  131. Jemerson60060*

    At work the other day there was a mistake that was attributed to me by a more senior employee (not my supervisor) that was not actually caused by me.

    I am a paralegal and I was helping an attorney from another office. We were working on a document back and forth. He encountered some minor formatting issues 2 hanging document headings at the end of the page. He wasn’t upset, he said I didn’t know and he should have told me not to do that, he just went ahead and fixed the issue himself. I infact did not know about the hanging heading rule, but I actually didn’t do that. I looked over the version I sent him and there were no hanging headings. I compared the document I sent him with the document he sent me back and realized that he made a minor edit deleted about 3 words very early in the document likely as he was looking over my version. It seems insignificant but that actually caused a one to two line shift up in the rest of the document after he made his edits without him realizing that is what caused the hanging headings. (I’m guessing deleting 3 words seems so minor he didn’t imagine it would cause a shift in lines)

    I didn’t say anything since it was so minor, no real “blame” was placed on me and I didn’t want to seem petty. My question though, is there ever a point that enough of this minor petty mistakes get incorrectly attributed to me by the same person even without being mad or upset that I should speak up and say something?

    I know if it were me even if I weren’t mad but I noticed several minor “mistakes” by the same person I might start to think less of their abilities.

    If I were a big mistake incorrectly attributed to be I would speak up right away, but little ones seem harder to judge.

    Thanks

    1. fposte*

      I think you’re right to let this one go, and I admire your self-control in doing so. I would jot a little note somewhere on the particulars just to remember it if it comes up, and if it looks like a pattern is forming, I’d go to my manager and ask what she recommends and also just to keep the record straight with her.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Can you e-mail him back and say “Hi Adam, I was puzzled because I didn’t remember having any hanging headings when I sent this to you, so I compared the two documents. It looks like it happened when you made some edits at the beginning and shortened a paragraph by a line. I didn’t know about the rule you mentioned, and will be on the lookout for this in the future, but I wanted to mention the difference to you so that you can also be on the lookout when making edits.”

      ??

    3. Confused Teapot Maker*

      It’s tricky. I’m in a situation now where I’m being blamed for things which are at least partly my line manager’s fault. On their own, they are minor details so, at first, I decided just to suffer in silence (although, unlike your attorney, my line manager makes it VERY clear he’s upset with me) as I thought it would just be petty to make a big deal out of something that wasn’t at the end of the day.

      However, like you have suggested, it now looks like my line manager might have “added up” all the small mistakes ‘I’ve’ made to make it one very big issue with the big boss. I’m definitely considering what to say now, but, at the same time, I don’t regret not having said anything before.

      I think if you start to sense this is a theme with this attorney, it would be worth pulling him to one side and saying something about it. Something like “Hi Pete. In future, could you flag it with me when you’ve edited a document I’ve been working on? Sometimes, in the past, I’ve noticed mistakes have been worked in that I haven’t spotted because I’m not aware of the changes you’re making.” I think something like that doesn’t blame the attorney for making mistake himself, but, at the same time, provides a workable solution that should be able to help you to help each other in the future.

  132. AnotherAnon*

    I had an interview last Tuesday, my references were checked the next day. The interviewers were supposed to decide last week and contact the person this week. It’s now Friday, a week and a half later and I’ve yet to hear back from them. Is this a bad sign? Did my references say something negative?

    1. fposte*

      It’s a sign that they haven’t called you–that’s the only thing you can know. Sometimes it takes longer to get the hiring committee together than planned; sometimes other stuff has come up for them (hiring is usually not top priority, I’m afraid); sometimes they’ve tendered an offer to somebody who’s on the fence and they want to keep you in hand if they say no; sometimes they’re checking the references on all the finalists and that takes forever; sometimes the money got frozen at the last moment; sometimes they’ve ghosted on you and you’ll never know why.

      I think you can drop them a “What’s the timeframe?” email at the end of next week if you haven’t heard by then.

  133. Librarian Ish*

    Any good websites or blogs to browse to learn more about tech? I don’t have a particular focus, but something readable during downtimes at work would be amazing. I’ve browsed Ars Technica and Anandtech (though the reviews on Anandtech make my eyes glaze over)

    1. Dawn*

      Hacker News, TechCrunch, The Verge, Engadget, Motherboard, Re/Code, MIT Technology Review, Techmeme, Andreessen Horowitz, Krebs on Security, Slashdot, Gizmodo

      Ordered in descending magnitude of relevance and usefulness.

      Why yes, I used to be a Research Analyst for a software company, how could you tell? ;)

  134. JustaTech*

    Does anyone have any experience at transitioning to a hospital-based job mid-career? Not as a person providing care (doctor, nurse, orderly, tech, etc) but as someone who would be around patients? Is it hard? How do you know if you’ll be any good at being around sick/injured people? It’s just not something I’ve ever done.

    1. Dawn*

      Could you volunteer at a local hospital for six months or so to see how you like it? My brother thought he wanted to be a nurse, but after volunteering for a year (mainly did patient transport but he saw a *lot* in that period of time) realized that he wanted to help people but that a hospital setting wasn’t really for him.

    2. CodeSunshine*

      I’m usually around happy patients – they’ve been told they’re being discharged home. If you aren’t a care provider though, I don’t see any reason that a patient could be mad at you specifically. You may deal with a few who are generally aggravated and you just happen to be there. Volunteering would be a good test of the waters, but I think you’ll make it anyways depending on the role you’re fulfilling.

  135. JMegan*

    I’m back at work today after two weeks of vacation. I came back on a Friday deliberately, so I could have a day to sift through emails, make plans, and so on, then have the weekend to rest and start fresh on Monday. I’m very glad I did, because I am feeling pretty unmotivated at the moment! Not really jet-lagged, just tired, and there wasn’t anything urgent that happened while I was gone. So, yay for a slow day at work, and hopefully I’ll be able to get my act together properly on Monday.

    1. SophieChotek*

      That’s a good idea – coming back on Friday. I might need to file that away for future reference!

      1. vpc*

        I do it whenever I can – it makes a huge difference. Know how you always wish your vacation was a couple of days longer so you can catch up on laundry, groceries, etc, and be ready for going back to work?

        The Thursday return – work Friday – weekend sat/sun is perfect. Friday is exactly that: figuring out what the heck blew up while you were out, answering the ‘how was your break?’ questions, and making your to-do list for Monday. Then you get your bonus two days for errands and chores and are ready to go on Monday.

  136. RedPanda24*

    Just want to complain about a reference situation. Six months ago, I left my first professional job of 3 years when my husband and I moved to a new state for his job. I’ve been working with a new company for the past 6 month (over the top lucky that I had a job offer before I moved), but it isn’t working out and I’m job searching again. I found out this week that my previous company (the one I was with for three years, two promotions and excellent performance reviews) now has a policy that all references must be sent to HR – no supervisors can give professional references. I’m pretty discouraged because most job postings I’ve been looking at want 3 professional references, and now I effectively have none. Why do companies do this???

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      I worked for 5 years at a company I didn’t like specifically to build my resume. Then they rolled out the policy that you couldn’t use any manager or coworker as a reference in the future and they would only confirm our deny dates you were employed there. Not pleased.

    2. Bad Candidate*

      My old company has this policy too. (I was there 10 years) Anyone in management has to direct someone not even to HR but to The Work Line and they only confirm dates of employment and whether or not I’m rehirable. Luckily for me, one of my managers no longer works there and another is no longer a people manager.

    3. Chaordic One*

      When I ran into this situation, I had several former supervisors go to bat for me by providing me with the personal contact information (personal home phone numbers and personal email addresses) that I used in providing reference information. I suppose they theoretically could have gotten in trouble with the employer, but they didn’t.

  137. Whatsausername*

    Hey all! I sent my resume to a company’s recruiter to be placed on file and instead I’m having a “talk about what I want from the future.” This is a job interview, right? I should prep for it like a job interview? Has anyone had a similar experience? Some background: I’m not available for new employment until April but they want to talk next week. This is a corporate recruiter who works with 40+ newspapers all in different locations, so in theory they don’t know where openings will be in April. Thanks in advance for helping me!

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Consider it networking more than an interview. Be prepared to talk about your skills and where you’d like your career to go. But also be prepared to deflect any specific offers.

  138. Ostara*

    Intern “Jason” started the first week of June and has missed 7 weeks of work. He works 4 days a week and has only completed one project since his start date – I’ve given him multiple. Some of these absences can be week long, others are a day or two a week. The issue is I am afraid a lot of these excuses may open us up to legal issues if we fired him (I work in local govt).

    For example: Jason will come in on a Wednesday at normal time and work all day. One minute before the end of his shift he will send an email that says “I won’t be in tomorrow since I need to take my daughter to the doctor.” He never mentioned anything to me all day about needing time off and he will be off Thurs-Sunday causing his projects to leak into the next week. Rinse and repeat for the following weeks until I take the project away from him. His time off is usually related to school or doctor’s appointments and happens AT LEAST once a week. I have talked with him about this and have asked him to bring in a doctor’s note so he stopped using that excuse.

    He has now been out since Oct. 10th due to Hurricane Matthew. Jason says he drove 2 1/2 hours to his home town over the weekend that the hurricane was hitting and is now trapped; he has still not returned to work. He went an entire week without letting anyone know whether he was coming back and I finally called him on the 17th when he was a no-show to find out where he was. He said he was still stuck and I told him that he needed to let us know every day that he wasn’t coming in and what his ETA was. He emailed the next day saying that the roads were open and he’d be in Wednesday “for sure”. Wednesday rolls around and he has an excuse why he can’t come in. A family member had to drive through his home town for work on Wednesday and did not have any issues entering or exiting. I did not hear from him Thursday.

    Jason is a severe hindrance to the team and due to his absences he is much farther behind than the other interns in terms of work knowledge and I would like to cut our losses and try to find someone who takes the job seriously. In you guys’ experience, can we fire someone for not showing up due to a natural disaster/constant doctors appointments without notice/needing to do homework (he actually used this excuse) without facing possible legal action?

      1. Ostara*

        This is a paid internship and they are expected to work 20 hours a week. Internship is probably not accurate since my company has it set up more like a part time job where to do the same work as the full-time folks but you are required to be in school.

        I read somewhere where an internship is geared more towards learning – at my place you get trained to work.

        1. Natalie*

          The requirement than an internship be primarily learning-focused only applies if the internship is unpaid or pays less than minimum wage. If you are otherwise following the FLSA and all other relevant labor laws, you can call a part time job an internship all day long and no one cares.

          It’s not clear to me why you think you can’t fire him. Does he have a contract?

          He does not qualify for FMLA (not enough hours worked or long enough tenure at the organization) so he has no job protection for the doctor’s appointments. Some states have more stringent protection but it is unlikely he qualifies. And there is no federal law that prevents you from firing him because he traveled to a disaster area and got stuck there. I suppose there’s a possibility that you are subject to a relevant state law, but I seriously doubt it.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Yeah, the disaster situation by itself could be seen as unreasonable (though not necessarily illegal) to fire over, but this is clearly part of a larger pattern.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      IANAL, but I don’t see how the school or doctor appointments open you up for legal issues. You are not responsible for accommodating your employees’ childcare needs (I mean, it’s great when employers are flexible and accommodating, but it’s not a legal requirement). He’s missed SEVEN WEEKS OF WORK in 4 1/2 months! That’s A THIRD!

      Yes, you can definitely fire people for no-shows, even if it’s because they got hit by a bus.

      1. KR*

        Also, he works 4 days a week. He can schedule his doctors appointments and other things for the day he is not working.

    3. Dawn*

      Jason is extremely unreliable and is probably laughing at your company every single day that you let him take off with no repercussions, because hey! He still has an internship, but he doesn’t have to work if he doesn’t want to! Ha!

      Fire him.

    4. animaniactoo*

      You can certainly fire him for inappropriate handling on his end of the constant doctor appts/natural disaster/schoolwork.

      I mean – everybody else stayed put or drove *away* from the hurricane. He drove *to* it? Why?

      And as for school stuff – is what he needs time off for in-line with the other interns? If not, then *he* is not balancing his schedule appropriately, and he might be the most legitimately overloaded person in the universe in terms of responsibilities, but that doesn’t mean you’re required to keep him on.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You’re not looking to fire him for the reasons he is absent. You are firing him for how he handles his absences, which is with radio silence and lack of proper notification period.
      In most places if you are a no show/no call it is assumed you no longer want to work there.

  139. T3k*

    Just a random quick question as I recently came across this: to try and not show such a short term in work history, should I remove the months off my resume? One job I was at for almost exactly a year, but another for only 7 months before being laid off. The latter one was between years (say 2012-2013). Would that look better than say, Sept. 2012 – Feb. 2013?

    1. Scorpio*

      I don’t think you want to misrepresent your experience by making it look like a year when it was closer to half a year.

      1. Scorpio*

        I should add that if they were to call that workplace, someone might say “Ahhh T3K was just here for like 6 months…”

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Keep the months on. I would leave the months off only if you’re talking multiple years.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      No, don’t do that. You’re talking about trying to mislead potential employers, right? Like, you were are Job A for six months and you’re hoping they will instead understand that you were there for two years. That’s unethical, but it’s also fruitless — employers are hip to this.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Do not remove months. It looks like you’re trying to hide something (because you are trying to hide something). Days don’t matter much; who remembers that sort of thing? But months can make the difference between 24 months on a job (Jan 2012 – Dec 2013) and 2 months (Dec 2012 – Jan 2013)

    5. BRR*

      Keep the months on. It’s super sketchy to people when a resume doesn’t have months on it and it’s for the exact reason you want to do it.

      1. NorCalHR*

        No! Please leave the months on. We make our offers contingent on successfully passing a background check, which includes dates of employment. If your dates are noticeably different compared to the background check, you’re likely to fail the background check and your offer will be rescinded.

  140. Lily Rowan*

    Question about application/interview processes:
    I did an online application and was told they weren’t moving me forward in the process. I feel like I was 100% qualified, but OK. The internal recruiter then sent me another position and asked if I would be interested in applying for that. OK, sure. She’s offered to answer any questions I have via email or phone before I apply, but I feel like I have all the questions I would ask throughout an interview process, and they aren’t really appropriate to just ask up front. For example, the second position seems like they are looking for a lower-level person than I am — can I just ask up front about salary, or is that tacky? Honestly, that’s the main thing I’d want to know before proceeding. I guess I’m confused because usually they want to ask me questions before letting me ask them!

    1. animaniactoo*

      You can absolutely ask. “Do you know what the salary range for the second position is? I’m concerned that it may be below what I’m looking for.” – because it really doesn’t pay to waste anyone’s time if it’s a $29k job and you’re not looking for less than $45k.

  141. MrsL*

    I am starting to think I am in the wrong industry, feeling more lost than ever in my career. I have come to worry about being in the right place on a daily basis.

    I have been working in market research for a few years and I have been in my current position for about a year. There are a lot of great things about the job. It’s a small company with lost of room to grow and develop. I like my colleagues, my boss is great, the work is interesting and stimulating, and we are delivering high quality work. It was the position and the opportunity I had been looking for when I got the job.

    But I hit a rough patch a few weeks back, and I am finding it hard to recover from this set back. Honestly, I am not sure I am up for the challenge. Thing is, I have always struggled with writing (being clear and concise), and this is something I have been aware of and tried to improve on. But, on our latest report I really underperformed and did not deliver the type of work expected of me. Although my colleagues tried to guide me and instruct me in getting things in the right place, I just could not get it there, and I had to hand over the writing to a senior colleague. There was a lot of frustration build up, and although I put in uncountable hours (barley slept), it did not gauge the right result. I felt beaten. I felt like I was just not getting it. And I can’t make my brain work differently. I dread any upcoming reports. I don’t want to go through that again, because mentally, I can’t handle it. I have come to hate the writing. It is not something I am great at, and I will probably never excel at it. To be straight, it is my number one weakness, and I don’t feel like i should be in a position where it is one of the most important skills.

    I am more suited for creative work, my strength lies there. It is just one of those natural abilities I have. I am visual. I might not be creative in a way that i come up with new ideas. But I reimagine them. That is really what i found that I do great. I reimagine layouts, reimagine visuals in reports etc (and I draw a lot on my spare time). But I don’t know how to move onto a path that would allow me doing more of that. I am not keen on the idea to go back to school. I have a family I have to support, and need to make a living.

    I can’t seem to figure out if I am just in a bad space currently were I will improve over time. Or, if I should really listen to my gut that says that I am not in the right place at all.

    Any pointers or thoughts to share?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Just a general thought, people do not help someone if they think the person can’t do the work.
      Is there someone there you can trust and talk with?

  142. Greg*

    I work in an administrative support office at a college campus, and I’m planning to ask for a raise and looking for advice as to how to do so. To give you an idea of what I do, there’s a lot that goes into it. We have a school director who works with larger college and university threads, beneath him is our office coordinator who serves to assign tasks from him to us, and then three administrative support assistants: one budget-oriented, one class schedule-oriented, and me who’s oriented in what’s growing to be far too many things, i.e. the “all the rest” guy.

    I’m sure it’s not necessarily uncommon to be an “all the rest” guy in a situation with limited team members, but in terms of financial compensation, I’m not satisfied. It’s difficult however to compare myself to the counterparts in my office because we all do very different things and rarely share projects/tasks. BUT I can compare my position to that of the other 3 Schools on campus [we are comprised of four schools/fields of study: Humanities, Science, Engineering, and Business]. So my thought is how does what I do on a day-to-day compare to that of my counterpart in those offices? In my dealings with them and having previously worked for each of them in a part-time manner, my determination is I’m doing an incredible amount more than my counterparts for what I presume to be lower or equal pay.

    My question is if the skills that I possess and the heightened level of work I’m able to complete are truly as valuable as I’m told they are, I feel as if I’m justified in at least asking for a raise. I’ve been in this position for nearly 2 and a half years with only the yearly cost of living increase that every employee receives (2%), which is short-lived as the benefits typically rise the same margin in cost so you don’t see much difference in pay. My plan is to outline every skill I possess that separates myself from my counterparts, every project I’ve either initially created or dramatically improved over the last year, and tie in goals of where I see these projects and new ones to be in the next year. I want to prove that I’m invaluable to the School and showcase that the things I’ve accomplished not only currently benefit the day-to-day but will potentially reshape the future for the school in terms of smoother operations and big-picture visibility. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

    1. ASJ*

      Yeah, leave your counterparts out of this discussion. I would even wager to say that you should leave your comparison to the other three schools out of it (because even if you did know for sure that they make more money than you, this is about you and not them).

      My questions for you would be: does your university have some kind of wage freeze going on? Is there a system in place for raises? Are you unionized, and if so what does your collective agreement say about raises? Does your university ever give raises? I would find out that information before going into the meeting, so that you don’t look uniformed.

      1. Greg*

        The short answer to your question is that I’m not unionized; there is a system in place for raises as I mentioned a cost-of-living yearly increase of about 2% for everyone; merit raises are sometimes referred to as “a thing of the past” around here, but I can’t tell if that’s just negative programming on behalf of the person spreading that rumor or reality. I could honestly see it being either. To my knowledge, there is no pay freeze going on though the words “a bad financial year” have floated around. However, I’ve been employed part-time or full-time within this unit for for 4 years and an additional 4 years as a wage student employee. I’ve heard the term a bad financial year, every year. It’s just a blanket statement thrown around at this point.

  143. Pat Benetardis*

    So – say there is a 3 person department, allexempt. Due to workload, not inefficiency, boss (me) works 55 hrs a week, employee 1 45ish, and employee 2 works 40 (but probably less because employee socializes, come in late or leaves early, etc. work quality from all is good. This has happened because projects have gotten canceled. I’m planning to redistribute workload on Monday.Is it reasonable to expect that employee 2 will work some extra hours so I can work less extra hours, even though I am 2 levels higher (paid more, etc.)? I think it is but would love some other opinions.

    1. ArtK*

      Delegation is a perfectly acceptable management function. If you were reducing yourself to 35 hours, that would look bad, but trying to even things out isn’t. That’s not to say that #2 won’t feel put-upon, but that’s their issue.

    2. fposte*

      Firstly, love the username.

      It’s not about extra hours–you’re all exempt, so there’s no extra or non-extra hours. My question is less whether it’s fair for you to delegate (as long as the tasks are appropriate I think delegation is fair game) and more whether the workloads your employees have and your expectations for them are fairly compensated. If you’re in a field where these are standard hours and obligations and you’re paying the market rate for that with decent PTO and bennies, it’s fine to expect people to work accordingly. But if they’re underpaid for their commitment level and have no sick days and employee 2 is now thinking “finally, this is more like what I should be working with this pay,” you’re going to hit a problem.

      1. Pat Benetardis*

        Thanks – it’s a new name to be more anonymous than my old user name was :)

        Nope, this is a large corporation where employee in question is making six figures (plus good bonus), with work from home days, generous vacation and sick time, etc.
        I personally feel quite well compensated and therefore am willing to do what it takes to get it done, I hope the staff does as well (they really should).

  144. Master Bean Counter*

    Good new boss vibes please.
    My grandboss is retiring at the end of the year. Interviews were held and rumor has it that they are going to make an offer soon. My grandboss and my coworker have been my lifelines at this job. My Boss is well, bad. In a place that rewards firefighters, my boss is a bit of an arsonist.
    So good vibes that the next grandboss is as good as the one I have now would be appreciative.

  145. Dzhymm*

    As a manager, is it fair to ask an employee if they plan to stick around? I had an intern once who was basically finding herself; trying things out to see what clicked for her. Previously she had interned with a bookbinder, then she was at my teapot shop, and who knows what she’d move on to next?

    At one point it became clear that she was working out pretty well at painting teapots and I wanted to put her on the payroll for realsies. At one point my business partner made the mistake of mentioning what our other employee was earning. We were paying the intern significantly less because, hey, intern, and at least we were paying her *something*

    One day she came to me and basically said that she wanted more money if she was to be put on the payroll for real. In that conversation I asked what her plans were for sticking around… did she maybe see herself staying another six months, a year, something like that? She replied that she didn’t have to answer that question and I really shouldn’t have asked. I was a bit taken aback because, after all, I wasn’t looking for a binding commitment — simply some indication of what her plans were.

    I took this situation to the mutual friend who set her up with me (he’s a bit of a mentor as well) and he said “She’s right. You can’t ask that sort of thing. You have to assume that an employee can bail at any time”.

    Can I get some other opinions here? Is this really the sort of thing I should not be asking an employee?

    1. fposte*

      I think your friend is right that you have to assume an employee can bail at any time, but that doesn’t mean you can’t ask what their current plans are. I’m especially giving the sideeye to the intern’s response to that. Of course I can ask where you see yourself longterm and how this job would fit into it.

      I would consider this clear notice from her that she’s a likely short-timer. Unless it’s a particularly well-paid internship, though, I think if she’s doing professional level work and you want to keep her, you should put her on the payroll and accept that she’ll leave–or you should end her internship so she can get a real job.

    2. Manders*

      I think you can ask that question, but you have to be prepared for the fact that your employee might not be 100% honest about it, especially if they think they’ll be treated worse if they say they might not stick around. I think you did put the intern in a bit of a weird position by pushing her for a commitment before you’d consider raising her pay; usually, people stick around *because* they’re being paid well, not because they hope their pay will go up some time in the future.

      I’ve had issues in the past where a boss was pressuring me for a commitment or just assuming I’d be around forever, and I knew that saying, “Well, there’s no room for advancement here, so when I’m tired of this job I’m going to start looking around elsewhere” would have gone poorly for me. So if you’re asking that question, and you need total honesty, make sure your employee knows they won’t be penalized for being frank with you.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Question: Is her work worth the amount that she wants?

      Yes, it’s a legit question to ask how long she’s planning on sticking around, but be clear with her that the answer won’t affect how much you’re willing to pay her, you’re not going to base the salary amount on that. It’s simply that you need to be able to plan for the future of your shop, so if you’re bringing her on you understand that things can change, but you’d like to know that her intention is to stay there, lowering the probability that you’ll be looking to fill her role again in the near future. Which would be very frustrating for you if you had to do it, so you’re just looking to get a sense of how likely it is.

    4. BRR*

      I don’t think you should ask because it puts the employee in a really awkward spot and you won’t get an honest answer every time anyways. Just like hiring for any position, you would see their resume and question how long they would stick around. Your friend is sort of right that an employee can bail at any time but in a work relationship, it’s generally assumed that an employee will stick around for a certain amount of time in the same way an employee assumes they won’t just be randomly fired after a week.

      I’m not sure if I have the details right but if this is a paid internship and she wanted to be paid more as a regular employee than as an intern that’s completely reasonable.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      One thing I have said is “We can’t ask you to promise to stay. But we hope that as part of considering this job, you will want to stay with us for x-y period of time. We are looking to hire someone who thinks this is doable for them.”

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s fine to ask, although as others note, you might not get an honest answer.

      I’d be pretty wary of hiring someone who gave you that kind of adversarial answer.

      1. Dzhymm*

        Indeed, that conversation left a bad taste in my mouth and my initial reaction was “I want her gone”. My business partner convinced me to keep her on, though, because she did have a lot of good qualities (she brought some desperately-needed organization to the business f’rinstance). She ended up staying a couple of years before moving on.

  146. WhiskeyTango*

    I could use some advice in communicating with my boss. He was promoted into this role last summer and seems to have a hard time communicating “difficult” news (or at least, news that would not be well received). The pattern I’ve noticed is that we have a conversation that is later followed by an email that contradicts the conversation – for example, he’ll tell me he’s going to take care of steps 1-5 of a project and then I’ll handle steps 6-10. Later, he sent an email to our support staff telling them I’m handling steps 3-10. (I was caught unprepared because I had based other commitments based on the conversation.)

    Another time, we discussed client assignments, that I would take Client A and he would take Client B. He waited until I left for the day and then sent me an email saying he’d made a mistake and he was taking Client A and I was taking Client B.

    Once or twice might be annoying, but it’s gotten to the point where I can’t count on anything discussed in the meeting because the follow up email will be completely different — and again, it’s usually not a good outcome for me and one that I would certain object to, but because the emails are sent to a group (and sometimes, not even to me – someone will forward it to me and say, “Oh, you’re doing this…”) it’s made public and often the cat is out of the bag before I can try to discuss it with him.

    I’ve tried to discuss things with him in the past and I’m usually shut down on the spot. (I.e., I have concerns about my work load, can we reconsider this assignment? He won’t even have a discussion about my concerns) I feel completely underwater and it feels pointless to try to talk to him. I’ve thought about responding to his emails with a “Oh, maybe I misunderstood our conversation…”, but most of the time, he’ll lead with “Sorry for the confusion…” which makes it kind of ineffective to respond that way.

    Any suggestions for how to deal with this? Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      How much later do the emails arrive? If it’s within a day or so, I’d reframe things in my head; planning conversations are brainstorming, not binding directions, and it’s the following email that’s binding.

      You’re not going to change him, so all you can do is find a way to deal with it. I’m a planner myself, so it would be tough for me, but I think it’s worth a try.

      1. WhiskeyTango*

        Sometimes its a few minutes later, sometimes its a few weeks later. It really seems to be variable.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I think you can say, “I’ve noticed that when we have planning discussions and then we follow up over email, there are often differences in the assignments/timelines/etc. that we discussed. Can you help me understand how these changes come about? It’s helpful to me to know when the details are locked down so that I can plan my workload accordingly, so I’d like to clarify when that step should happen. Based on what I’ve seen, it appears that the follow-up email is what’s final, rather than our discussion notes – is that what you’re expecting?”

      I think part of your problem here is that you’ve framed this as misunderstanding on your end, but that’s not really the issue – the issue is that changes are happening after you’ve already made plans based on an earlier understanding. You may not be able to prevent getting assignments you’d have preferred to fend off, but you can at least get into better alignment with your boss and see why he’s making changes after you discuss.

    3. ASJ*

      Your boss is a jerk and it doesn’t sound like he’s going to change. This doesn’t sound like a communication issue; a communication issue would be your boss sending these emails out with a completely different understanding than what you both walked out of the meeting with. This is him deliberately telling you what [he thinks] you want to hear and then shooting off an email after the fact that’s completely contradictory.

      Could you change the discussion you’re having with him? What if you started saying “Based on our conversation, I’m going to do X, Y, and Z immediately”. For example, to take steps example, you could say “Based on this meeting and me handling steps 6-10, I’m going to do X, Y and Z. Does that sound feasible?” and maybe that will clue him in to say “No, because I actually want you to do steps 3-10”. I mean… it’s worth a shot?

      1. WhiskeyTango*

        I think part of it is he is trying to avoid confrontation but given that he won’t discuss things with me and makes it quite clear that his word is final. Once or twice is annoying, but it happens pretty regularly and, while I started off liking him, I definitely feel like he’s turning into a jerk. Part of it is that I’m not sure why things change (as noted above)… I asked very specifically about one of his changes and he didn’t really respond. Just shook his head and said it made better sense. (It didn’t and it was later changed back (again without any explanation…))

        Ugh, time to redouble the job search.

    4. Menacia*

      I have a coworker like this, just yesterday he was asked, point blank by our manager, with the rest of the team in the room, if he had coverage for his vacation. He replied yes, twice, so I assumed it was a done deal. Then *today* *Saturday* he sends out an email (conveniently leaving off our manager) that he needs someone to cover one of his days. He avoids any kind of confrontation like the plague and it’s really annoying. So guess, what, I avoid his emails like the plague (I can’t cover his shift anyway, and he should know that and not include me in on these emails). Manager does not manage, she pushes things to us to handle, but then I’m told that I’m being intimidating when I ask someone else to do something. WTF?

  147. Not Rebee*

    Am I on the hook here?

    I have been filling in for a position for over a year now (last June/July) with the idea that I would eventually transition into that role full time and leave my current position behind. A lot of the discussion on this has been happening a few levels above me, and I have mostly been left out of the loop entirely on all of the finer details as they try and work this out. The impression I’ve gotten is that there’s a lot of moving parts they have been trying to sort out, and a lot of stuff they haven’t even really had time to think about (such as complete and official job description, salary, title), but it seems to me that the moving pieces have actually been settled a few different times, just maybe not in a way everyone liked.

    The position I am filling in for is really meant for an attorney (I’m a paralegal), so the original idea was to hire on an attorney and move me under them. Well the lady they hired is not an attorney or paralegal, and was really hired on to perform another function (and got this research-y function tacked on to her department). She seemed excited to have me coming on board, but that was back in February, and I’ve since done 99% of the work for this function and they have determined I should be moved under another department (I learned this last week). They would like to wait to move me until they have hired my replacement – they only gave my current department head permission to hire two months ago, and my replacement starts on Halloween. In the meantime, my soon-to-be manager (still not a legal professional of any kind, but a better fit I think) is still subject to change without warning and my title, salary, and official job description are completely non-existent.

    On a scale from 1 to GTFO how worried should I be that this has drug on this long?

    1. fposte*

      I think if you want a full-time role you should start looking beyond this workplace. That doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but it’s not a priority for them (which doesn’t make them awful; it’s just a reality), and the current arrangement works well enough for them that they don’t have much motivation.

      1. Not Rebee*

        I am currently full-time, just not in that particular role. One of the issues is that they want me to report to someone, so they have been scrambling around (I use that term loosely since they are doing it at the speed of molasses) trying to find one for me since one was not already here made-to-fit. The other issue is that they did not want to yank me off the team I’m currently on and leave my current team in the lurch – we have been understaffed and are in the process of hiring/have just hired for 4 or 5 positions in this department alone (one of which is my position). So yes, this works good enough for now, but is far from optimal for anyone. I have been basically unassigned from my previous tasks except for on an as needed basis, but my other work recieves no oversight or assistance, and I have to bug bug bug the person a few managers up the chain (as she is the one currently in charge of my new tasks) to get stuff done for me and help both of us out. I assume none of the 6 people currently involved directly in this transfer are enjoying it…

        1. animaniactoo*

          Question: From what you’ve seen at this place, once they make a decision and a move, and it’s all finalized, how likely are they to stick with it?

          I ask because Halloween is in two weeks and if your replacement is starting then, it sounds like just about all the moving pieces are in place and you may be near the end of this and be able to settle in to your “new” role in the near future. Which would make this worth waiting out until the end of November or December to me.

          On the other hand, if they *don’t* tend to stick – I’d be high on GTFO.

          1. Not Rebee*

            Yeah, I’ve been told now that my tentative transition date would be November 14. This gives me time to train my replacement (my current supervisor is out the week of Halloween) and about three weeks for them to get everything sorted. Of course, I was given that tentative transition date with no indication of salary, job description, or title… just the old information about my new manager (who has only just been told about this, I guess).

            In the meantime, because the new manager has been looped in, I am kind of being edged out of discussions about it – it appears to not be entirely appropriate for me to discuss this straight with the people making decisions as I had been doing (over the course of the year, the people in the middle have been getting edged out themselves and it’s been just me and the big decision maker a few links up the chain) now that everyone in the middle is in the know. I am trying very hard to respect that I shouldn’t be going over people’s heads on this, but it feels like a step backwards to me and what I have hated the most about this process is not being in the loop (and that there are never any real answers to obtain).

            I do think that once I have the missing information that this will stick in place. It’s just a matter of whether I realistically can expect to actually have that information by the time my supposed transition date rolls around.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I agree with fposte- this may not happen for you at this employer. It sounds like you have been very patient and they have been taking full advantage of your good will to drag their feet. Jobsearching sounds like a better plan than waiting for something that may not come through at all.

      1. Not Rebee*

        I have gone about as high as I can go – it seems like there is a lot of disorganization and a lot of “we haven’t thought about that yet” going on and without going up the chain to our chief legal officer (and skipping about 5 people in the middle), who likely has no clue about any of this, I’m mostly out of options.

  148. Swimmergirl*

    I received a new job about four months ago, and it’s a very top down environment in which our VP thinks she always knows best and will constantly yell and scream and put down ideas and work for no reason other than “I don’t like it” but not say what she does want. I also feel like the position was misrepresented, since I was told that I would do a lot of writing and instead, I’m emailing graphic designers about making signs and post-it notes. I’m also doing 90% of the department’s work, even though we have a five-person team. In short, it’s been a nightmare. Even more important, I’m not really learning anything and growing.

    I was thinking about applying to other positions but wondered how I would phrase it, so as to not seem like a total job hopper. I read you’re not supposed to put down your employer either, so I’m at a loss of what to do.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      One short stay (assuming you’ve got a few longer stints on your resume already) doesn’t make you look like a job hopper. I would stick with the misrepresentation – just say that the job turned out to be quite different than what was presented in the interview, and you’re looking for something that’s more X.

  149. Jersey's Mom*

    I will be at a science conference and moderating a session on “Careers in Ecology”. I have a panel of 3-4 scientists in very different jobs (think gov’t, non-profit, private, etc). The attendees will be a mix of college students looking for career advice and people 1-10 years into their careers who are thinking about new directions for their career. We will have a long portion of the time set aside for Q&A and obviously I will plug AAM as a source for advice.

    Question: if you were attending (and were in one of those two groups) what topics would you want to hear discussed?

    1. Confused Teapot Maker*

      Admittedly, not even in an industry close to ecology, but, if it helps, thinking back to my uni days, the things I would have liked to have known from people in my profession are:

      – What was your career path to where you are today? What skills/qualifications/work experience were critical to getting you to where you are now?
      – What’s the most rewarding thing about your role/What’s your proudest achievement to date? (Which might sound a bit cliche but, when you’re slogging it through a degree, looking for entry level posts and then working long hours for little pay in those entry level posts, it’s great to hear there is a light at the end of the tunnel!!)

    2. Jules the First*

      I’ve done this a few times for my alma mater and the one topic I always bring up is about how it’s important to figure out what a “good job” looks like to you – when you’re a new grad, there’s a huge temptation to take a job, any job, or a cool job that pays peanuts – but that you will be happier and mote successful if you do some thinking about what’s important – do you want flex time, to wear jeans to work, to make a lot of money, to travel, not to travel, etc – and think about the relative weight of these priorities. The question is ‘what will my life look like when I take this job?’ I think that helps you make better job decisions and I’ve had lots of feedback from students and from career services about how useful this was. (YMMV, of course)

    3. Not Karen*

      Day-to-day tasks vs. overall picture of the job

      For instance when people talk about my job, they talk about the big picture: analyzing data, writing papers, contributing to health research, etc. What they don’t mention is that most of the daily work is less idealistic, like cleaning up data entry errors and redoing analyses in 1000 slightly different ways.

      1. Lydia too*

        Along the same lines as what Not Karen suggested:
        What do you spend most of your time doing?
        What do you enjoy most about your job?
        What is the thing that surprised you most about your job? (I.e. what did you not expect based on the knowledge you had about this type of role prior to starting.)

    4. CoffeeLover*

      Some great questions have already been posted. I would add questions like: where do you see the industry going (in 5 years, in 10 years)? what are the challenges and opportunities in the industry and in your particular sector? how do/have the actions of the other sector impact your sector (so how has non-profit and gov impacted private). The industry I refer to would be the ecology industry – I hope I’m not too off in thinking there would be some subject matter overlap between the different scientists.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        *do/have/will

        I think a lot of focus should be on where things will be in the future. Especially if your audience is people who are thinking about getting into this industry in that future.

    5. Jersey's Mom*

      Thank you all! I’ll be using all your suggestions as I put this thing together. You’ve been very helpful.

  150. Bored at work*

    Two weeks ago I posted about needing to talk to my boss about needing more work to do, and that the discussion went really well and…nothing has changed. Blame me for not taking initiative or whatever, but I do not want to have to nag people for work, so I give up, I’m getting out. I promised my husband I’d stay put until year end bonuses come out (it’s only another month and hey, free money), but then I’m ramping up the job search for serious.

    1. Rebecca*

      Good for you. When your manager won’t manage, it’s time to start looking. In my office, my workload has been crazy busy for over 2.5 years. Any help I’ve been assigned has been short lived or not competent, thus causing more problems. I finally got some competent help, but I still wasn’t able to get out from under the major issues that have caused me a lot of grief, so I found another job. I can’t wait to leave.

      Coincidentally, there is someone in my office who is in the same boat as you: not enough to do, asking manager for more work, not getting work, and I’m asking to get rid of one job task totally, and suggested giving it to the person who is “bored at work”, to no avail. I’m not sure what’s going on, but in a few weeks, it won’t be my problem any longer.

  151. anonnnn*

    I’m training a new employee at my job and I can’t stand him. Not sure what to do about it. The issue was originally that he was making a lot of inappropriate comments (overly sexual stuff, racial slurs etc). His supervisor told him to stop and he did stop. However, he still just…bothers everybody, chanting people’s names over and over, lots of unnecessary touching, repeating these needling little catchphrases constantly. And I’m really not comfortable around him after the sexual stuff even though he’s not doing it anymore. I feel kind of ridiculous talking about how uncomfortable he makes me because I’m a man and he’s straight, but he’s just a creep.

    I could probably deal with it if he was a quick learner, but he’s the most incredibly incompetent person I’ve ever met and needs LOTS of extra time and patience that I just don’t have to give to him. He’s also one of those people who wildly overestimates his own competence and won’t admit to being wrong, which isn’t helping. No one else is officially qualified to train him except for his supervisor, and she’s taken on some of it because I’d go crazy otherwise, but it’s not her job or something she has much time for. (Plus she can’t stand him either!)

    I’m spending 75% of my work hours around him and it’s making me dread coming to work. I’ll be continuing to spend all my time with him until he’s qualified in all areas, which at this rate is never going to happen. Unless he starts back up with the racial/sexual stuff he’s not going anywhere. We’re really short-staffed right now and our boss would rather have this guy than no one. Any advice?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Ugh, that sounds terrible. You should be able to press the incompetence issue with higher-ups, but I know that doesn’t always get anywhere. Unnecessary touching sounds like it’s in line with the “sexual stuff,” so you might be able to use that as well?

    2. self employed*

      Can you point to the fact that his terribleness results in reduced productivity for you, meaning that you have a total net loss? So you’re better without him than with him?

      1. anonnnn*

        The problem is, we’re probably marginally better off with him than without from a productivity standpoint. He can perform very basic tasks, very slowly, which makes him useful for maybe an hour or two each day. My own productivity is reduced but that’s on less time-sensitive stuff and my boss doesn’t really care when I catch up on it.

    3. ASJ*

      Wow, that sounds like a terrible situation to be stuck in. Can you point out to your boss that this guy is severely lowering team moral?

      1. anonnnn*

        I don’t think my boss understands team morale. He’s laid-back to the point where it makes him worse at his job and he’s always confused when people are upset about something. He’ll try to address people’s concerns, but he just doesn’t get this kind of thing on a fundamental level.

    4. Stellaaaaa*

      I consider myself a pretty good judge of character, and I’ve found that when I suss out a negative quirk of someone’s personality, I can put it on the backburner for about six months, which is when other people start to catch on.

      tl;dr – Other people will eventually realize how annoying this guy is so just wait it out. It’s not worth wasting your limited workplace capital on this guy when you could save it up for other issues that matter more.

      1. anonnnn*

        I’m hoping that’ll happen, but it really comes down to my boss and he rarely gets annoyed by anything. Or he does, but he’s forgotten about it 15 minutes later.

        He was definitely a bit annoyed and taken aback the other day when he found out the terrible new hire had already applied to an open position in a different department! But now he’s had no contact with him for two days and probably doesn’t care anymore.

        I think literally everyone else would happily fire this guy today. I suppose that by 6 months it should get to the point where we’re all threatening to quit to get away from him…

    5. animaniactoo*

      Touching sounds like an issue, as does the repeatedly chanting people’s names. The latter is the kind of thing you forgive in an employee so brilliant and good at what they do that it’s a minor inconvenience to put up with for having them (cost of admission concept).

      The touching definitely has to be reined in, but I suspect that he’ll get spoken to about that and he’ll stop, but move on to staring creepily or something.

      Would you be willing to go to the mat of “If I have to spend the next 3/8/10 months training this guy *I’ll* be out of here, and then you’ll really be shortstaffed”? What about the supervisor whose team he’ll be on? How forceful is she willing to be about not wanting *him* on her team? How much weight does her word hold?

      Possible to talk about office morale issue in terms of the stuff that bothers everybody? And how having this guy around is likely to decrease production as people look for ways to take a break from being around him?

      1. anonnnn*

        Yeah…is it bad that I’m kind of hoping that he’ll start back up with the sexual comments? He does seem to follow specific commands, so the touching will probably stop once it’s addressed, but it’s impossible to think up all the specific ways this guy is going to bother people and tell him not to do each one.

        I’m not sure yet if I’m willing to do that, because I don’t think my boss would take it seriously until after I’d already quit. I think he might take the supervisor more seriously since they’ve worked together for a very long time, but she’s not at the “me or him” point yet. I guess that’s what I’m waiting for now, hah.

    6. Observer*

      They guy is actually touching you? If he is tell him to STOP IT. As in “Do NOT touch me again!” If he does it again, you need to bring it to your supervisor and / or HR.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I wonder if he has some form of ADD?

      Of course, even if he does that doesn’t make him any easier to work with.

    8. NicoleK*

      If your manager won’t manage and the coworker situation starts messing with your mental health, it is time to brush off your resume.

  152. Bianca Part 2*

    So I posted last week about not having the right credentials for a job and being nervous about getting the job offer revoked. So the following Monday I got offered a different position within the same office with the same pay that did not require a bachelor’s degree. This position fits my personality and experience a lot better. The problem now is that she did not announce the open position to the rest of the staff. So now several of the staff especially the front desk person (whose been here a year and has been looking to get promoted) of our small office are pretty upset, that the position was just offered to me. The front desk person even confronted me yesterday saying that she does not want to help train me, that it is not personal and that she is just really pissed at our director, bc the director refuses to acknowledge her work. Today, the staff keeps having side conversations while I am in my office about the director’s decision to not announce the new potion. So I don’t know what to do and how to address this. This is a small office of 6, I don’t want my co-workers to hate or resent me. *Note: I have observed the front person’s work ethic for the last three weeks and I will say that it is not exemplary. She is always late, does not wear professional work attire and is not really a people person, constantly being rude and cold to our clients.

    1. Scorpio*

      It sucks that people are treating you poorly but it’s not your problem or your fault so just keep plugging away. They’ll get over it.

    2. ASJ*

      It’s not your responsibility to make things better here. IMO, the staff are being super unprofessional. I get it; it sucks to train someone in a job you wanted. I’ve had to do it twice now. But you have to put on your big person underwear and do it because sometimes that’s what you have to do. And it’s not fair for the staff, particularly the front desk person, to hold you accountable for the director’s actions (and it’s beside the point, but I’m not sure how common promotions are one year even are).

      If necessary, you may have to pull upper management into this. I would do that as a last resort, and try to foster connections by being sympathetic (“I’m sorry you feel it was unfair.”) but other than that I’m not sure what else you can do.

    3. CoffeeLover*

      If you’re already noticing she’s not a great performer, then I’m sure the rest of your coworkers notice too. Do a good job and show them why the director hired you without posting the position.

  154. scarequotes*

    Work/pop culture related, so I hope this qualifies for the open thread:

    What fictional TV or movie workplace would be the worst place to work, if you weren’t one of the main cast?

    This came to mind as I binge-watched (the phenomenal) Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, specifically the episode where the boss at the main character’s law firm calls an “important” staff meeting to let everyone know that he’s bisexual. (At least he does it in a musical number.) But really, the main characters on the show pop in and out of the office at random times, take off for vacations at a moment’s notice, are distracted from work functions by personal issues, and otherwise seem like nightmare coworkers.

    But oh, so fun to watch.

    Anyway: Worst fictional office? What say you?

    2. Manders*

      The Shatterdome from Pacific Rim seemed like a terrible place to work. Everyone was so unprofessional and yelling all the time. There’s no way that place was OSHA compliant, AND they were making a guy with obvious mobility issues climb around on a ladder.

      Some of my favorite parts of Star Wars: The Force Awakens were all the little details about Kylo being a lousy boss. The part where the stormtroopers turn around and walk away when he’s having a tantrum is just perfection.

    5. Diane Chambers*

      I think Paddy’s Pub in “It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia” would be a horrible place to work, even if you were one of the main cast. (I just don’t get that show.)

      It would be worse than working at “Cheers.”

    6. Mazzy*

      I always thinking of D&D Advertising on Melrose Place. The constant backstabbing, two hostile takeovers, the efficiency expert that almost edged Amanda Woodward out of the company, and the slue of happy faces that got hired and then tried to undermine the company.

  155. AL*

    Just was offered a fantastic job after months of searching! The company I was working for was closed in July, so I’ve been looking since March. It’s quite hard not to get discouraged. I kept track of the search, and thought the numbers might be interesting to some:

    – Applied to 92 jobs total.
    – 9 phone interviews (one was automated, where a robot asks questions and your answers are recorded).
    – 7 in person interviews (including the one that got me the new job).
    – At the time I received the offer, I had 3 phone interviews, 1 in person interview, and a second interview scheduled.

    2. Mazzy*

      An automated phone interview? I never even thought of that. Not sure how that saved time since you’d have to eventually listen to the answers anyway.

  156. phedre*

    My former boss’s husband has a job interview at a place I worked at 6 or so years ago, so he reached out to me for any info. I told him what I could about culture, etc. with the caveat that many of the people I knew there are gone.He asked if I could reach out to the Executive Director of the agency and put in a good word (I ran into her earlier this year and we had a great catch-up so I don’t think she’d mind if I reached out), but I’m not sure what to say. I don’t want to vouch for his work because I never worked with him – though through the grapevine I’ve heard he is really quite good. And then I wonder how much good my reference is since I was just an assistant there early in my career and I’ve been gone so long. But the ED did like me enough to refer me for a job elsewhere when I left there, so maybe it would help? If there’s any way I can help him, I do want to because I think highly of him.

    Anyone have any suggestions on how to walk that line of reaching out to the ED and putting in a good word without necessarily saying I’ve worked with him? Is it even worth saying anything?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You think highly of him, so that’s really all you have to say. You can say you ran into Former Boss’s Husband and he told you he was interviewing at her agency; you’ve never worked directly with him, but you’ve known him for X years and you think he’d be a great fit for her organization (if that’s the case). It would be a very nice thing for you to do, even if nothing concrete comes of it.

      1. phedre*

        Thank you! That is perfect language, thanks. I was just having a hard time thinking of the right phrasing.

  157. Dovahkiin*

    I’m managing a big project with people from different teams at my company who don’t usually work together while my boss is out of office. I got to handpick the team, except for one marketing person “Tywin” who my boss’s boss wanted on the team. That’s totally fine with me and I thought his expertise could be helpful. Well, we all work really together, EXCEPT Tywin has shown a pattern of leaving (literally hanging up on a conference call) and pouting (saying things like “no one wants me here”/”no one cares what i have to say” and dragging his feet on turning in deliverables) when he gets respectfully corrected or when I redirect a meeting back to the set agenda.

    The team is mostly women and it’s become a pattern where he’ll talk over and interrupt the women during our weekly meetings to tell “war stories” from his past or to “correct” them with things that he feels “in his gut” or anecdotes from his previous jobs. He’s a talker, that’s for sure, and it’s very noticeable that he doesn’t do it to the other man on our team (3 women including me, and 2 men). Even though he always contradicts women in group meetings, he’s taken credit for their ideas and work outside the meetings, which makes me furious. I’ve been pretty good at stopping this w/stuff like “I want to keep us on track here to stay within the allotted time, so please let Khaleesi finish telling us what we need to know,” and “Yes, Khaleesi worked really hard on that research, I agree she did a great job,” when he tries to take credit. I thought I was doing an ok job dealing with a frustrating coworker and making the best of it, but. this week was pretty much the final straw.

    When our data person was explaining her part of the project this week, Tywin interrupted her, said she didn’t “have a lot of experience in this area yet” and basically began lecturing her with her own research THAT SHE HAD SENT TO US IN PREPARATION FOR THIS MEETING. I was losing patience (it wasn’t his first interruption this meeting) so I said, “Tywin, it’s great that you read Khaleesi’s notes for this meeting, but we need to hear what she’s dealing with so we can work this out during this time. You need to let her finish and follow the agenda.” He hung up on the conference call.

    I sent an email to him after the meeting saying “Hey, sorry you got disconnected from our call. I do need deliverables X and Y today, and can you hook up with Sansa to figure out Z before our next call.” He replied with “No one seemed to care what I had to say at the meeting, so I’m done working on this project.”

    Khaleesi also asked me to take a walk with her and she said that she was really having trouble working with such a dismissive, condescending coworker. I told her I understood and saw what she saw, and that I would escalate it, because it was becoming a real problem. I escalated it and it was kind of a total cluster, including Tywin accusing me of “blindsiding him” by fwd’ing his message (I cc’d him) to my boss’s boss and stating “we need X, Y, and Z to complete this on deadline, can I get another coworker since it seems that Tywin won’t be able to complete this.” My boss’s boss pulled him from the project, and it looks like we’re going to complete on time, but I have definitely made an Enemy, which is not a great feeling. I try to make sure the people on my team feel valued, but so much energy went to Tywin, I don’t know if I was successful. UGH.

    This was such a nightmare, and I don’t think I handled it as well as I could. Does anyone have any experience dealing with this kind of soft sexism and jackassery, and is there a better way to nip the behavior in the bud before it gets like this? A better way to manage a team like this? Was I just dealing with a particularly bad egg?

    1. ASJ*

      I think Tywin is an asshole and the only thing you did wrong is that you didn’t escalate it sooner. That may (or may not) have nipped it in the bud before it became the problem it did; I don’t know that there’s anything else that you personally could have done.

      I do want to point out that your team probably really appreciates what you did by getting Tywin removed from the project. No one wants to work with someone like that.

      1. Dovahkiin*

        Ha! I lol’d at “Tywin is an asshole.” Thanks for replying, it makes me feel a lil better about the whole thing.

    2. animaniactoo*

      It sounds like you have some cleanup work left to do here – specifically, you need to key in boss’ boss on what nobody wanted to listen to, because otherwise it will just be “they didn’t appreciate what I had to say” with no idea that what he had to say was to interrupt and mansplain the research SHE HAD DONE to the researcher. And that this was a consistent issue, and the “disconnect” came after you shut him down.

      One thing you could have done previously was to escalate this enough to say “Interruptions have become a consistent issue. I’ve been dealing with them in the moment, but I’d like to know how much authority I have to pull him aside to talk to him about the pattern and asking him to stop.” – allowing you to deal with the overall pattern, rather than the individual instances. Even if you weren’t given the authority, you could ask that someone in his chain of command talk to him about it.

      1. Dovahkiin*

        This is really helpful – will def steal your phrasing for next time.

        Boss’s boss and I had a one on one convo after the email, and I explained a pattern of disruptions and the ensuing tantrums when I course-corrected back to the agenda, so that’s done at least. He gave me permission to pull a different employee into the project to help us finish on time and a “thanks for handling this and bringing it to me.” I didn’t mention sexism or mansplaining. I just listed the problem-causing behavior I saw without putting a label on it. Do you think I should have called it as I saw it? Is that not appropriate, or does that need to be brought to light? FWIW, when I have confronted smaller incidences of casual sexism in the office, the reaction was occasionally defensive but most of the men i work with are understanding and work to change their behavior once it’s pointed out that it diminishes/marginalizes their women coworkers.

        I think I delayed longer than I would have if my boss had been in office. I have a good relationship with my boss and would have felt comfortable talking to him about it, but I felt like it wasn’t worth the attention of my boss’s boss until it got really bad. Plus there was the issue of it being my boss’s boss idea to put Tywin on the team in the first place. Now that I know my boss’s boss is a normal, decent boss, I’ll feel better about going to him in the future.
        Thanks for your thoughtful response!

        1. animaniactoo*

          Hmmm. How comfortable would you feel going back and saying “I was somewhat hesitant to raise this, because I feel the behavior was an issue no matter how it occurred, but I do think there’s an additional element to this. It was pretty clear to me that he only interrupted or talked over the women in the group and never the men. In the last incident, he was actually explaining the researcher’s research to her and the reason that I decided I did need to make this clear is because she came to me afterwards to discuss her issues about continuing to work with him.”

          Leave out the mansplain term, just the facts ma’am.

          However, there is a possibility that this could now look like piling on and you should have raised it in the first conversation. You know your company culture, so I think you’re in the best position to judge whether going back for it is worthwhile.

          Question though: Do you think that mentioning the direction of it will undercut the report of the behavior? Make it less likely to be taken seriously? Because it’s entirely okay to leave it at “The behavior is a problem no matter who it’s directed at, and stomping on it in a neutral manner leaves no opportunity for deflecting it”.

          1. Dovahkiin*

            “Do you think that mentioning the direction of it will undercut the report of the behavior?” This is actually exactly my exact fear. The men I work with know I’m an outspoken feminist; I do visible work with feminist nonprofits in my community outside of my job that’s received recognition locally, and I’m visibly queer in a workplace dominated by straight white men. I worry that coming from me, it’s like “Oh that Dovahkiin and her vagenda again.”

            I don’t want to underestimate the men I work with or sell them short, but there has been enough casual sexism and defensiveness around some pretty basic things that I do second guess dropping the “sexism” bomb, because I think it just causes a knee-jerk defensive shield to raise. This is the crux of why I feel so terrible about this. I want to elevate the women I work with, I want to slay at my job, and I want to do all I can to dismantle sexism in my workplace, and this is the first time in my job where I feel like I failed at that.

            1. animaniactoo*

              I would let it go here then – you’ve already addressed the issue, there was enough evidence that it’s him, and I would only raise it if it becomes a problem again in the future – “I chose not to mention it before because I think the behavior is unacceptable no matter what, but given the current issue…”

              And hey – sometimes, you can only get so far in a period of time. Pick your battles, assess your shot of actually winning, wield your power carefully. Build reputation. Get yourself taken more seriously so that when you do call it out it’s “she raised it in this situation and she doesn’t always do that”. Sometimes progress is slow. You haven’t vanquished but has progress happened? Your term there isn’t done yet, so I think it’s premature to say you’ve failed. 8•)

              1. Dovahkiin*

                Thanks again for your thoughtful and helpful reply. This helped me to breathe and see the big picture. Many, many thanks!

    3. Dawn*

      “Was I just dealing with a particularly bad egg?”

      Uh… yeah. This dude was acting like a pouty child, and one thing you DEFINITELY don’t get to do as a professional is unilaterally declare yourself off a project because your pwecious fee fees were hwurt.

      Definitely an asshole, possibly sexist to boot.

    4. Observer*

      I think you handled it well. Tywin is a piece of work, and as for blindsiding him, what exactly did he expect?! The fact that others on the team were getting frustrated means that you really had no choice but to do something, and forwarding his email was sensible. You really don’t want anyone to claim that you are “over-reacting” or have Tywin claiming that you “misunderstood”.

      The only think I would think you MIGHT have been able to do sooner, would have been to ask your boss’s boss about this earlier on. But, I can see a lot of situations where that would not be useful.

      I don’t think it really was a “cluster”. Ultimately, you got a good result. This is not someone who would ever have been a real ally or someone you could work with in any advantageous manner. I also suspect, that unless he does a LOT of growing up, he’s not going too far. He’s not only a jerk and sexist one, at that, but he’s also an immature idiot.

    6. Natalie*

      “I don’t think I handled it as well as I could.”

      Just an observation: I hear this a lot from people (often women but definitely not exclusively) when they’ve handled a jackass perfectly appropriately but the jackass continued to behave jackassishly. Maybe it’s too many sitcoms or something, but I think we sometimes have an idea that “handling it well” will end in the jackass having a moment of realization and completely changing their behavior. But that’s fairly unlikely. People don’t change because of one glorious confrontation with all the right one-liners.

      You handled this completely fine. The guy is a childish jackass.

      1. scarequotes*

        Agreed. I don’t think you made an enemy. You flushed out an enemy who was already there.

        There was no perfect combination of words that was going to enlighten him, make him see the error of his ways, or win him to your viewpoint.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you chuckle with some people I have a rule of thumb. I can tell how effective I am at calling them out on something by the amount of flashback I get. Here I would say you hit a bull’s eye. He knows you are calling him out on his behavior and he knows exactly why. Good job on that one.You made your point, you mentioned what he thinks is unmentionable. Keep following this, sounds like you have good support from above.

  158. AshK413*

    I’m 95% sure a manager in my office was just diagnosed with cancer. I heard her while she was on the phone talking about her family history of cancer, and I heard her crying and her direct reports comforting her after the call ended. She has been one of the only people who’s made a point to make me feel welcome in my new office so I really want to let her know my thoughts are with her and to lend any support I can, but she hasn’t actually told me the news. Should I say anything? I don’t want to come across as cold by not saying anything (I’m really quiet and I have a feeling ppl in my office don’t like me because I’m not outgoing) , but I also don’t want to bring this up and make her uncomfortable. I’m leaning towards feigning ignorance but would appreciate any advice.

    1. ASJ*

      Unless she tells you the news (or someone else reliable mentions it to you), I would feign ignorance. Just because one-sided conversations aren’t always what they seem, and also you want to respect her privacy. I think there’s a greater chance of her being uncomfortable if you brought it up, than you coming across as cold if you don’t.

    2. BRR*

      Don’t say anything. It’s very nice of you to be there for her but if she wants you to know she’ll tell you.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Hmm. Only you know best what to do. But maybe you can send her an email like this:

      “I just realized I never said thank you. You have made a real point to make me feel welcome here and I want you to know I noticed and I appreciate that. So, thank you.”

      This might be a good compromise solution for you, where you aren’t left saying nothing but at the same time you are not talking about the cancer subject either.

  159. Doe-eyed*

    It finally happened. I got the dreaded “I don’t give 5s” manager. Everybody in our group is upset because there’s no institutional policy that requires this, she just interprets it this way. It doesn’t help that she’s not a competent manager in general and has no real idea what any of us do. Is it ridiculous to leave over this? I mean the different amounts to 1% or less of salary per year, but by the same standards why is it so important for her to keep that for the co?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Totally reasonable to leave over it. And even to kick it up to HR I would say “I feel that my work performance is being penalized by her policy. If I put in 5 work, I am not receiving that 5, and the evaluation that is on my record by the general standards of the company is not a true reflection of my work and that concerns me for my opportunities here.”

      1. Doe-eyed*

        This is apparently rolling down the line because people that do OK work are getting bumped down even further. Because of a recent divisional change, we had two reviews this year. For many people the first one gave them 4.5-5 overall and then this one 3.5-4 so it looks like there’s a huge drop.

      2. Doe-eyed*

        BTW thank you because your phrasing is perfect. I’ve been grappling with how to express this without sounding like I’m throwing a tantrum over a few dollars and that wraps it up perfectly. I’m just so disappointed that a manager could feel like her reports do a baseline 4/5 work. In our group alone we have people that constantly put in overtime to solve problems, go out of their way to help each other, cover for 2-3 people out with medical issues, and are constantly thrown extra work.

          1. animaniactoo*

            oops, i mean above a 4… friday EOD going into a 3-day weekend. My brain has already packed up and gone home. I think it even changed into the comfy pjs and everything.

            1. Doe-eyed*

              I totally understood you! I think what has been most frustrating is that there’s not even a thing to improve. One coworker got 3s across the board, and then was told there was nothing to improve. WTF?!

  160. Question for Working Moms*

    I don’t have children yet, so I don’t really know if I’m way off-base or not in asking this. For those of you who are mothers and work full-time, what do you do if your child is sick? Do you have take a PTO day, or if you have to be at work, do you hire a babysitter?

    I have a coworker who has two children who are adopted. She is single by choice. Her job requires that she be present in the office for important events. However, when a child gets sick on one of her event days, she asks other coworkers to help out. This would be fine if it were once in a blue moon, but it’s quickly becoming a pattern.

    Of course, it’s not my business to ask about childcare arrangements – but it quickly becomes my business if I have drop everything and miss deadlines and assist. I obviously don’t want to provide unwanted and unhelpful advice, but it just seems like to me in this situation, the parent needs to have a back-up plan.

    1. ASJ*

      I don’t have children either, but one of my friends is (basically) a single mother. She usually has to take a PTO day or let the kid stay with someone (baby-sitter, grandparent, etc…). I don’t disagree with you – she clearly needs a back-up plan of some kind – but unfortunately life isn’t always that easy.

      (Frankly I’d urge you to be cautious when you say she is “single by choice”. Perhaps I’m just taking it this way, but it sounds… well, not good.)

      Is the order to help coming from higher up? If not, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say, “I’m sorry, I can’t, I have [really important thing to do].” I don’t see why you have to sacrifice your job for hers.

      If it is coming from above, then it’s probably time to have a talk with your manager.

      1. Question for Working Moms*

        When I said “single by choice,” I didn’t mean it in a bad way. I was trying to think of a way to say that she chose to adopt as a single parent, knowing that she didn’t have a partner/spouse that could help out or family close by that can step in and lend a hand. I should have clarified that.

        We share the same manager and are on the same level, seniority-wise. The manager is several states away. I actually had a talk with our manager about a month ago after a similar situation happened (i.e. child got sick and coworker said I would take her place…but never actually asked me if I could help her out). I talked to our manager and shared my concerns about the situation. Manager had no idea that coworker never even asked me if I could help and was appalled that it happened. So, the manager is aware of the situation.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Parents should have a plan a, a plan b, a plan c, etc.
      Kids have a gift for getting sick at the worst times. A parent with out multiple plans can become a parent with out income. It’s hard. As someone who has on again off again custody of two toddlers, even I have multiple back-up plans. I have at least two other people who can watch kids, sick or not, if necessary.
      If you know of anybody that you could recommend as a back-up source for help I’m sure this mother would appreciate it.

    3. self employed*

      Keep in mind that it can be hard to hire a babysitter for a sick kid, depending on the age/illness. Also the first 1-2 years of childcare are usually germ-fests that settle down eventually.

      In your case, though, she may have a plan worked out w her boss about the sick days. If it’s becoming burdensome I’d talk to her boss and clarify the expectations for you (not her).

    4. NW Mossy*

      I have two kids, and the process when they can’t go to school/daycare looks like this for me. It’s quite fresh in my mind because I literally did this at 2:30am today when my kindergartner woke up with a horrible-sounding cough (but eventually decided she felt well enough for school):

      * Mr. Mossy and I compare work calendars for the day and see who has any can’t-miss stuff that day. Today, I had a critical meeting with my new great-grandboss and all managers in my unit in the AM, while Mr. Mossy had a key customer visit in the afternoon.

      * With that data, we then had a plan that I would take the infant to daycare and then drive in, go to my meeting, and then return home to relieve Mr. Mossy so that he could go to his.

      * We can both do the bulk of our work from home, and since sick kids tend to sleep a lot, it ends up being pretty productive.

      Basically, we talk it out as it happens and do our best to minimize impact on ourselves and our colleagues. The exact solution looks different each time, but we know that certain options (splitting up the day, working from home) are our first lines of defense.

    5. fposte*

      Though let’s redirect the problem to where it really is–what is your manager’s plan for covering for an employee who’s allowed to be absent on short notice? I’d go to the manager before I’d go to the coworker.

    6. chickabiddy*

      I generally work at home and my kid is old enough to pretty much take care of herself: if she was sick enough to actually need enough attention that I couldn’t work, it would probably be bad enough to be an “emergency,” which IMO gets treated differently than runny noses or upset stomachs (and, of course, other family members’ emergencies should get treated the same way as a kid emergency).

      What does your manager say about this coworker not being available for her events? Is the manager even really aware, since you and others generally step in to cover for her? The first thing I would do is to have all requests for coverage go through the manager so that she is aware how often this happens. I would also want to ensure that your coworker makes attempts to rectify the inconvenience by covering events for the folks who covered for her, even if that means she has to arrange for extra childcare.

      And I am a single parent with no family in the area, and I agree that she needs to have several options for backup plans. Childcare for sick kids is hard to find and expensive (she may even end up losing money for the day if she has to pay out more than she makes), but she should get started looking for some services that she can call on when she needs them.

  161. Bradduk*

    I have just set up my first informational interview (whoop) and wondered what some good questions to ask where / how to conduct it (i.e., is it as formal as an actual interview)?

    2. Dovahkiin*

      Depends on the industry. When I get informational interview requests, i usually aim for something casual over coffee, since for the most part it’s with students and new graduates.

      A good rule is to NOT treat it like a formal interview. They’re not interviewing you to see if you’re a good fit for their team; they’re doing you a favor and giving you info about their industry and job. So questions like “what experience is most helpful for the job and how can I get that experience” are good. Questions like “Do you have an opening for me?” are bad and awkward. Ask them about their career path. Ask them what distinguishes a good candidate from a great candidate. If you’re still in school, ask what classes you can take. Ask what interpersonal skills are most valuable in their line of work. Ask what they wished they had learned sooner in the workplace. Treat it like you’re asking for advice/tips from a mentor.

      Also – make sure to follow up with a thank you note or email, and keep in touch over the next few months/year. Don’t be overbearing and email them every week, but if you get a job in the industry or later see an opening in their company, it’s cool to follow up.

    3. CoffeeLover*

      It’s just a conversation that should flow naturally, which happens to have a specific topic. Have a few questions prepared that you know you want to ask (and refer to them if you get stuck), but also let questions come to you as the other person talks.

      Other pointers:
      – Pay attention: Sounds like a given, but it makes you look bad if the interviewee has to repeat things they’ve already told you. Active listening is also critical in asking smart questions.
      – Bring a notebook and take notes when appropriate, but also don’t be too focused on note-taking – again it’s a conversation.

      As Dovahkiin said, it’s awkward to ask if they can hire you. It would be fine to wrap up the interview by asking if they have any tips for you for [breaking into the industry, going down the same career path, finding a similar job at a similar company, etc.] You can even ask if there’s someone else they would recommend you should reach out to, and whether they’d be willing to put into contact with that person. Of course, you do need to gauge the person first.

  162. strawberries and raspberries*

    I work in a community non-profit, and my (new) coworker and I were discussing a grant we receive that involves sharing recipients’ stories for a major publication. She said that they shouldn’t even be asking us these questions because of HIPAA. When I said that HIPAA shouldn’t apply to us because we don’t provide health or mental health services or retain that information for our clients, she insisted that she’s taken HIPAA training, HIPAA covers all non-profits, and it means that you are not supposed to be share ANY client information outside of the program. I’ve also taken HIPAA training, and I’m pretty sure that it only refers to healthcare providers, insurers, and clearinghouses, as well as any other business involved with processing health and mental health-related data. Can someone please confirm that this is right and I’m not crazy?

    1. Dovahkiin*

      um what? I used to work in the nonprofit industry and recipients’ stories are basically the cornerstone of every grant, publication, and donor ask. What she’s saying is b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, that might be the nuttiest thing I’ve heard today! The HI in HIPAA stands for Health Insurance!!

    2. ASJ*

      IANAL, but this sounds like something that consent forms were born for. Does your non-profit have anything in place like that, that you could point to?

    3. Manders*

      Yeah, that makes no sense at all. I agree with ASJ that consent forms would be a good idea, and I don’t know what your field’s policy is on using clients’ real names in a major publication, but HIPAA covers a very specific type of information and it doesn’t sound like it applies to your nonprofit.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        We do have two consent forms clients fill out before their requests are submitted for grants, one that’s a general release of information to the funding organization in order to prepare the request, and another that allows them to opt in or out of being interviewed and featured in the major news outlet (which would include their real names). Being interviewed is totally optional and doesn’t affect grant receipt, and we always coach clients before an interview that they don’t have to answer any questions they’re not comfortable with. However, we do have to write up a short blurb about the client’s success in which we have to share some information about them, but again, it’s usually only brief information that’s germane to the type of work we do with them and it is not health or mental health related.

        Then again, this person is new, and she’s made a number of other eyebrow-raise-worthy mistakes (for someone with her alleged level of experience), but like Kermit, that’s none of my business.

    4. Allypopx*

      Yeah my understanding is you have to be providing a health service for HIPAA to apply. It can be a little gray for some people if you are like – tending to a fainted coworker because you have vague EMT training and then talk to other people about it. But this sounds like you solicited and received stories from people voluntarily (correct me if that’s wrong) HIPAA does not apply.

    5. Observer*

      She’s flat out wrong. However, you DO need to be careful of privacy – HIPAA isn’t the only set of rules at play. And, if you were to accidentally leak sensitive PII that could turn into a real problem.

      So, you need to make sure that any information you collect is well protected, and that you have some very clear policies that protect the privacy of your clients.

  163. Environmental Educator*

    Even though I just started my new Director level position 4 months ago, I think it is time to start casually looking for another job and I am majorly disappointed! This job is everything I’ve ever worked for and the organization focuses on a variety of issues so that as the Director of Education, I don’t feel like I have to pick and choose between my many interests. That is so rare. But this place is just so dysfunctional, especially for a nonprofit that is 34 years old and seems so successful on the outside. I did plenty of research before taking it and there was no indication of any warning signs other than a few questionable social media posts, which I discussed during the interview. There are a myriad of things going on but the last straw as it were happened this week:

    -On Wednesday I was asked they could hold off on my paycheck. Today is payday and I usually have it direct deposited, but instead they did a paper check and want me to wait until Monday to cash it. I’m not hard up, so I agreed just this once.
    -This morning all the staff got an email from our Executive Director talking about various good things that came out of the Board meeting last night. At the end of the email (really long, she’s a rambler who over-shares) she talked about how we’re in a tight financial system and that we all have to do our part etc. etc. She wants us all to strongly consider writing a letter to family and friends to ask for donations, as she has had staff do in the past, or to make a donation ourselves.

    I feel like the writing is on the wall for me. I’m not comfortable with this.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Ooooh this doesn’t sounds great. Your instinct to start looking is a good one. I’m sorry :(

  164. Annie Moose*

    I’m loving my new job, but one of my new coworkers has a habit that’s really driving me crazy… when we’re working on things together (because I’m still learning, we’ve been working jointly quite a bit), he refers to everything as “your” work. “Your” teapot design, “your” teapot handle, “your” teapot glaze color, whatever–even when it’s something I had nothing to do with, a piece of work that was done before I started working here (or was done by him!). And it’s often in a negative context. (e.g. “oh, this isn’t working because your teapot handle is connected wrong.” No, your teapot handle is connected wrong; I haven’t connected any teapot handles, and don’t even know how to.)

    I can’t tell if he means it to deflect from himself (probably not), if he’s genuinely forgotten I didn’t work on those pieces, or if that’s just how he talks (probably), but it’s driving me bonkers! Even if he doesn’t intend for it to be accusatory, that’s how it comes across. I’ve tried deflecting with laughing about it, “hey, not my teapot spout!”, but that hasn’t changed anything. I guess I need to just get used to it, but man, it really bugs me.

    1. ASJ*

      This is something to correct in the moment. And don’t laugh about it.

      “Oh, your isn’t working because your teapot handle is connected wrong.” “Actually, that was Wakeen’s work.”

      “Oh, your teapot design is awesome.” “Actually, that was done long before I came around.”

      “Oh, your teapot glaze color is off.” “Actually, you were the one who worked on that.”

      Probably won’t change much, but it might make you feel better.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Why not ask him about the big picture? “I’ve noticed that you usually refer to things as being mine, when often they’re not mine. Can I ask why you do that?”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I like this because it lays the ground work for any further instances.
        “My work? I thought we talked about that.”
        OR
        “My teapots? Nope, not mine, remember we chatted about this?”

    3. SirTechSpec*

      I can see how it would be annoying to be associated with stuff you didn’t do, particularly stuff that’s defective somehow, but I’m not sure it’s a habit you’ll be able to talk him out of. I personally do elaborate verbal gymnastics to avoid using the phrase “your problem” (I say “the issue you were experiencing”, etc.), but I’d be a bit weirded out if I forgot one day and the person got upset. From my perspective, especially in a service/support context (technical support, billing, car mechanic, whatever), “your widget is broken” doesn’t necessarily mean the one you made or even own, just the one you’ve brought to their attention, as opposed to the other dozen widgets they’ve thought about that day.

      That doesn’t necessarily make it any less irritating, I realize. But would it make sense in context to shift your thinking to “I didn’t make these, but they *are* my responsibility now that I’m on the job, at least for the period of time I’m interacting with them.”? If not, I think you’re down to a direct request (reasonable people will *attempt* to accommodate a request not to do something annoying even if they themselves can’t see why it’s annoying), or just holding out until you need to interact with this guy less. Whichever one you go with, good luck and let us know how it goes!

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      I don’t think he’s necessarily implying “your” as in “work that you did” but rather “work that’s in your possession.” You could ask him to clarify what he means when he says “your” – or you could just mentally reclassify “your” as “the/that/this.”

      1. CoffeeLover*

        I would also interpret it this way. I don’t think this is something that’s worth bringing up, unless you want to bring it up to him as a learning opportunity. People at work are quite perceptive/sensitive to this kind of stuff (because a lot of times it really does matter who did what), which he may not be in tune to, and which is why I almost always go for the safe “we” and “our”.

    5. LCL*

      Are you in the US? I bet he is from the US. This is a very country way of speaking, which I don’t mean as an insult. It is just how he talks. When used like this, ‘your ‘ doesn’t refer to the other person in the conversation. ‘Your’ refers to the inanimate object/thing being discussed. Substitute ‘this thing’s’ for your and it all makes sense.

      The way you handle it is the same way you handle talking with people who aren’t as familiar with the language as you. With respect and sincere questions.

    1. Librarian Ish*

      Yep! All but one aspect of my job is completely…toast. At least it’s that way for everyone, so I don’t just feel like a slacker.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Didn’t have a clue what you were talking about and had to go Google. So that’d be a nope. lol.

      Although it looks like it’s possible that it could spread to this side of the country…

  166. Environmental Educator*

    I just started my dream job in a Director level position at a non-profit that has a good reputation in the state (so I thought). I’ve been here only 4 months, but I’m beginning to see that the writing on the wall already and am finding myself casually perusing job boards already. There are a myriad of issues that mostly stem from an inept, unorganized, unprofessional Executive Director. The latest thing is that we are now having financial issues due to her mismanagement over the past several years. This Wednesday I was asked to withhold cashing my check until Monday (today is payday), which I agreed to as long as this was only happening under extraordinary circumstances and wouldn’t be a recurring thing. Then this morning all the staff gets an email from her outlining some good news from last night’s board meeting, but at the end (very long email, she rambles and over-shares) she detailed that we are in a financial bind again and that she appreciates that the staff pulls together to do everything in their power to overcome it. She also mentioned that she would appreciate it if we could all get letter out to friends and family to ask for donations to the organization in our time of need and for us to consider donating as well. It makes me uncomfortable to be asked to send letters to families and be asked to donate. I feel like this is borderline inappropriate.

    1. SirTechSpec*

      Ouch, that sucks! I wouldn’t want to hit up my family and friends for donations to keep my company afloat either. If it helps, I believe Alison has mentioned before that “they were having trouble making payroll”, said in a very matter-of-fact tone, will be universally understood as a good reason for leaving your last job.

    2. animaniactoo*

      It is beyond borderline inappropriate. What that translates to is “Hi, can you help pay my paycheck?”

      If they need donations, they need to lean in a different direction. Alumni, businesses their grads tend to end up at, a dedicated fundraising campaign in the greater community, etc. Which you do not urge your friends and family to donate to.

    3. Allypopx*

      More than it being inappropriate, if they’re that desperate you are almost certainly on board a sinking ship. I’d be actively looking for ways to help the organization save itself, of course – but actively looking for other opportunities as well.

  167. Leatherwings*

    How do I turn down a job gracefully? I told the hiring manager I was still interested in the job this week (I was, they were still finalizing a title and salary) and I got an offer today. The title and salary are just out of line with the expectations she set out in the interview, and I don’t think I would be happy there. On top of that, I just went through a layoff and this organization is going through a budget crunch (that would be partly my job to fix).

    At this point I just want something more stable, but I feel guilty since I just told her I would still be interested. Thoughts?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I don’t have the background, but it sounds like you can turn it down gracefully over exactly what you said – salary was not commesurate with level discussed in meeting.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Would you be happier if the title and salary were where you wanted them to be? Or have you changed your mind enough that it’s not worth trying to negotiate?

      1. Leatherwings*

        Honestly, no. I think after seeing the details of the offer, it just reinforced that it’s not the right thing. I can’t deal with another organization facing budget issues. I just can’t.

    3. Jules the First*

      I just turned down a job last week.

      Try “thanks so much for the offer; I’m really sorry to have to disappoint you, but having been through the details of the contract, I don’t think this is the right next step for me.”

  168. A Large Cantelope*

    I asked for advice about setting boundaries with my team while out on maternity leave a few weeks ago, and it worked! I’m still pregnant (almost there!), but I sent clear emails about who folks should contact with relevant links in my away message; I haven’t received any work communication and when I checked my mail (I needed to forward a message from HR to my personal address) I only had 11 messages after my first 8 days out (I normally get 20-30 messages a day), and they were from 2 listservs I’d forgotten to unsubscribe from and a congratulations message from a coworker. A few coworkers even complimented the tone and content of my message, so I’m feeling pretty good.

    Thank you to the commenters who helped with the wording! My job has a lot of turnover (several very competent folks have left recently, and one manager’s response has been to throw tantrums) and a really disorganized program plan, so I wanted to make sure my ducks were in a row/I didn’t become a scapegoat as “another person leaving us in a lurch.”

  169. Horse Lover*

    So I was just gonna put this here. Does anyone else every get so anxious in workplace small talk/chitchat that like, word vomit just comes out? I’m not the greatest at casual workplace chitchat or small talk in general but there are times when internally it’s just OMG OMG OMG and I babble and end up saying stuff I wouldn’t have.

    Nothing hurtful or anything like that, but for example today I told my manager I bought a new saddle but hadn’t told my parents yet (and then babbled on about the saddle and what a great deal it was*). I’m 30 and now thinking Ugh why did I say that? It’s not like my parents approve my purchases or handle my finances. So it was word vomit anxiety in the moment and now it’s post small talk anxiety. Le sigh. >.<

    *It was a fantastic deal, this brand normally sells for $2500 to $2000 brand new and hold their value very well, I found one with all the fittings, plus some extras for only $300! I hadn't told my parents yet because I'm accumulating all this horsey stuff and still have no horse…yet!

    2. animaniactoo*

      Rarely at work but it’s happened in other circumstances. I’ve found the only way to short-circuit myself is to name it for what it is “I’m babbling, tell me to shut up.” or “I’m babbling, I’m just going to stop now.”* – because part of the problem is that once you stop, there’s really no graceful way to end it. But I’ve found that people will laugh and appreciate that at least you’re aware of what you’re doing, rather than being oblivious to it.

      You can even tack on to the end of this with something like “Sorry, it’s just that it’s such an amazingly good deal that I can’t believe I got it. Moving on…”

    3. Jules the First*

      Ooohhhh…careful with the buying tack before you get a horse. I am not your mother, but…remember that it all has to fit THE HORSE…what if you do what I did and go shopping for something that’s, say, Irish Sport and 15 hands, and then (as I did) fall for an 11.5 hands Welsh Section C with a big personality? (Note, I am short, so this works…just!)

    5. Loopy on Allergy Meds*

      I’m absolutely loopy on allergy medicine and have no helpful suggestions to help a fellow word vomiter (vomitor?) but perhaps I can make you smile as my first thought on ready about your saddle was to wonder if you also have spurs that jingle jangle jingle and now I have that ear worm!

  170. Discouraged Job Seeker*

    I’ve been job searching for over a year now. I’ve had maybe 5 interviews for 40-50 applications. No offers yet and am at a loss as to what to do.

    As time goes by my confidence is dropping plus my current position is horrible and toxic. Any words of wisdom? I’m getting so discouraged.

    1. legalchef*

      Have you had someone look at your resume? Sometimes we look at something so frequently that we don’t catch something in there that could be turning potential employers off, even if it’s a few typos. I know that when I was applying to law schools, even though I read over my application 100 times, I almost missed a really important typo that my grandfather saw – in my name!!

    2. ButFirstCoffee*

      I’m sorry you’ve had such a rough time. It’s tough out there, especially in certain niche sort of fields. Have you worker with recruiting agencies at all, as in sending them your resume and letting them send you suggestions, etc.? Second the comment about having a trusted friend look over your resume and make suggestions. I hope your luck turns around soon.

    3. Mirilla*

      Wow we are in the same exact position! I’ve sent out around 50 or so in the past 10 months and had about 5 interviews too. I had one actual offer but it was pulled for reasons I’m still trying to figure out. I think I dodged a bullet on that one but it lingers in my mind.

      I have had a friend review my resume but no real advice there. I have pretty much got that covered. At first I was sending generic cover letters but I’ve tweaked that and some of the ones I have sent out have been in my mind fabulous. I mean, I put a lot of thought and effort into them and really thought they were great. Still they aren’t working though. I’m starting to think people think I’m overpaid for the positions I am applying for so I’m trying to address that either in the cover letter or by adjusting my job title. My job title has manager in it but I manage accounts, not people. The problem is my job title usually commands a higher salary (even if he/she isn’t managing anyone) so that’s a problem too. If I leave off the word manager, you can still tell from my job description that I should be making good money and I’m not. Hence, the toxic job I’m in. There is no chance I would be earning even minimum market salary for my position where I’m working now but I can’t tell people that because you aren’t supposed to talk bad of your employer.

      I started training myself on Quickbooks and it’s slow going but hopefully it will help. Are there any online courses you could take that may add to your skills?

      I too am incredibly discouraged. Like you probably did, I started this job search with high hopes and a lot of enthusiasm. Now I’m starting to get a serious complex here as to what is happening. It’s like I’m trapped and I’m stuck. I keep hitting brick walls. I hope we both find something soon. Stay strong and just know you’re not alone in this. My confidence is dropping too but I just keep trying to stay positive the best I can. I try not to get too excited when I see a job I want because the roller coaster ride is not fun. I used to think I’d get a call or even an offer (“This is the one! This is the job!”) and for most applications I don’t get either. Now I look at it as a part time job that eventually must pay off. Sooner or later something will come along for us.

  171. Jadelyn*

    …I just received a resume that listed a skills/qualities section that included “No felonies”, “INTJ”, and “Aquarius (Sun Sign)”.

    Why? Why would you do that?

    2. Jules the First*

      I got a resume in my latest batch of hirings who put ‘submits documents on time’ under Achievements. For this job, it is a minimum qualification. And with 16 years experience he should know that.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        They forgot some other “Achievements”:

        – Shows up for work! (more than half the time!)
        – Reads email! (Comprehension and responses not included)
        – Uses the computer! (for surfing; proficiency not included)
        – Submits time card!
        – Warms office chair!

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      Aquarius is an air sign. The attention to detail, which I am sure is listed on that resume some where, is lacking.

      1. Jules the First*

        Unless they mean it in the context of ‘my sun sign is aquarius but my moon is in cancer but that’s probably too much detail for my resume’…

        And the fact that I know this is a possible interpretation (despite not believing in it) just announced my INTJ attention-to-detailness to the whole world. *embarassed face*

  172. Nothing Left but Cold Ash*

    I have to get this out and don’t really have anywhere else to do so. I’m not really sure what I’m looking for… commiseration, at least.

    I’m just completely burnt out on my job. Done. Want to be gone.

    This has been a rollercoaster year. I’m a part-time receptionist (weekends are my only guaranteed hours) for a company that has offices spread out across the area. The office where I work weekends is my main office, and the manager there my manager. During the week I’m available to cover that or most other offices as-needed (if their receptionist is out sick or on vacation).

    Well, this year has been the year of turnover. Many offices (including my own) had people leave, spots filled by bad hires that were then let go, etc etc. And that meant a lot of demand on me, and different offices vying for my time. Also, one of the offices that had a bad hire was my office, and I was in charge of training both the first hire, and the replacement (who isn’t that much better). In the meantime my boss was expanding my role to try to create a FT position for me.

    This time period has been crazy-stressful for me. Between constantly shifting schedules, working 6 days a week most weeks (when that leads to rapid burnout for me, even if I’m not necessarily hitting 40hrs, as I’ve discovered), and a diet that’s mostly drive-thrus because I just don’t have the time/energy to make anything… my health has really taken a hit. I started having knee issues in July that made walking very difficult. I was already on shaky ground with my mental health, but the inability to walk even the single block to he nearest food place from home was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I’ve been making a lot of mistakes and missing things that I wouldn’t previously have missed. And while my knees have finally started to get better after seeing someone at a sliding clinic (I can now walk that block once more, and recently went to a show that required walking around a history park), my mental health hasn’t budged.

    As I said before, my position is PT. That means I only get state-mandated sick time. I’m not qualified for benefits, even the PT ones, because most of my hours are “temporary”, and thus don’t count (even though I’ve been consistently working weekly hours above the minimum to count, many weeks getting to 40-48). I had forgotten and had issues come up with my state insurance that I didn’t catch until too late, so no insurance this year for me. I went to a sliding-scale clinic for my knees, but I haven’t been able to schedule a follow-up appointment because I never know what my day off for the week will be. As far as sliding-scale places for mental health… I can only find one in a distance I’m comfortable driving, and the description + reviews make me very leery of it. It looks like a great place if you have a lot of energy to put into getting registered and your problems aren’t severe. That doesn’t describe me on either account. Plus I’ve had not-so-great experiences with the category of worker I would see, which makes me even more hesitant.

    I’ve been trying to apply for a new job, but that is tough when you’re falling apart everywhere else. However, I’ve had more success in the past couple of weeks than I have the rest of the year (meaning I actually got an application submitted). I have other battles on this front too—namely, no references. My current job has been my only one since I graduated college. I had a different job during college, bu there’s no one left available who actually can truly speak to my work.

    And I also feel like my chances of FT at my current job are fading away (not that I want to be here FT anymore). There’s the mistakes I’ve been making (plus ones that I haven’t–coworker not doing what he’s supposed to on a job that reflects both of us)… And one other thing that I don’t think was fully my mistake. A higher-level admin asked me to order a replacement machine for one that had broken. I contacted the sales rep from the other company and was offered three choices at three pricepoints ($, $$, and $$$). I showed the admin the choices and asked which I should get in very very plain language. She didn’t decide and left it up to me. I chose the middle-of-the-road one…which ended up being the wrong one. She emailed me last week about why the bill wasn’t the lowest price. I sent a reply over the weekend (after much stress and hand-wringing and feeling sick) explaining what happened and why the price wasn’t what she expected. She still didn’t get it and sent me an email asking what we had to do to get it to $. I know sitting on this email reflects badly on me, but just thinking about it and trying to answer it makes me feel sick and like I’m going to have everything taken away. Especially so in light of the mistakes I HAVE been making.

    I don’t even know what to do anymore and anytime I can focus all I can think about is escape.

    1. Creag an Tuire*

      I had a different job during college, bu there’s no one left available who actually can truly speak to my work.

      Any chance you can track down your old managers? LinkedIn or other social media?

      1. Nothing Left but Cold Ash*

        Everyone was aging and has since retired. I think I have the phone number from one co-worker… but the place wasn’t big on supervision and actually managing people, and had instances of nepotism everywhere (including me). The closest I had to a manager and who knew the most about my work quality was the relative who got me the job, so no matter how great I was, I could never use them as a reference (and they’ve since passed on anyways).

    2. animaniactoo*

      Deep breath. Check the labor laws in your state. If you’ve regularly been hitting 40-80 workweeks, it’s entirely possible that you *are* a full-time employee, even if your shifts rotate. Some states have provisions that mandate that part-time employees who have been regularly pulling down full-time schedules become full-time employees by default.

      Do you already have the machine? If so simply state “In order to get it down to $ price, we would have to return the current machine and re-order to get the cheaper machine that I previously sent you the information about.”

      Talk to current manager. “I’m starting to burn out hard. I’m making mistakes and it’s frustrating me and I know a lot of it is about the unpredictability of my schedule and only having one day a week off. Can we talk about strategies to address this before it gets worse?”

      and much sympathy here. That sounds like a ton of carp to deal with.

      1. Nothing Left but Cold Ash*

        I’m not sure that would work now–it was closer to the beginning of the year that I was hitting those. The last couple of months I’ve been more consistently in the 30s. Part of that was my boss trying to get me on a regular, predictable schedule, which then got thrown out the window by powers and business needs above him. He’s been as frustrated by this as me. (And a lot of the mistakes started when we were trying to get me settled into a regular schedule at my office–that’s when my knees went and took my mental health with them.)

    3. KR*

      I hope you can get out of there. I work two part time jobs – one 29 hours a week and the other 20 hours a week. It’s rough. I never know when my day off is going to be. I can’t make myself keep up on self care, housework or errands because I’m always either going to work, coming home from work or being anxious about work. Can you try going to your boss and explaining how much this job is taking a toll on you and the situation with benefits? They might be able to pull some strings to get you some relief.
      As far as the mistakes – I wouldn’t ruminate too much on the equipment thing. You gave her a choice, she left it up to you. Maybe put a call into your sales rep and ask about returning it and how much the shipping will cost.

      1. Nothing Left but Cold Ash*

        I feel you. I’m not working the same total hours, but sometimes it feels like it. And I don’t think he could–our company’s HR is essentially being dictated by our huge owner-company, which means many many hoops to go through for everything, and no exceptions. :/ That’s likely a big chunk of why I wasn’t made FT when he first mentioned it.

        I tried to say a softer version of “You left this up to me, and this is the one I picked”, but it’s like she’s tunneled in and not fully reading my emails, and I’m one of those people that hates conflict (and my conflict-aversion has gotten even worse as mental health went down the drain). I don’t think we’d get the other machine at the price she wants if we did return the new one, because that was a promotional discounted price.

    4. ZVA*

      Is there anything you can do to get the price down to $? Any way to exchange the machine you bought for the less expensive one? I saw your comment that $ may have been a promotional discounted price; maybe you can call the sales rep from that company, explain the situation, and ask if there’s anything they can do to help you out (aka give you the discount even if the promotion is over)… Then tell the admin “Sorry again for the mixup; I can exchange the $$ machine for the $ one. Shipping will cost _____.”

      If you can’t exchange the machine, just be straightforward about that. Tell her the $ machine is no longer available for that price, apologize again for the mixup, promise to check in with her before making this kind of decision in future… And good luck; I hope things start looking up soon.

  173. Chill Pill?*

    Any advice for someone going through the post-interview waiting game? I’m three interviews deep into the application process for a retail management position. The last one was last week Friday and seemed to go well. At the end, the HR manager said that they would get back to me by Wednesday and an hour later, called to ask about my availability to talk with them again (but didn’t set a time). Wednesday has now come and gone. I’ve read enough AAM to know I shouldn’t agonize and obsess, but that’s easier said than done. I’m tempted to send an email to check in, but don’t want to look like I’m criticizing their process. Should I take a chill pill and try to enjoy my weekend or is there a polite way to ask, “What gives?”

    1. CoffeeLover*

      You should check in at the end of the week (today). It’s been a week since they said they wanted to meet, so it would be reasonable for you to check in this afternoon (around 2 so they actually have a chance to respond before leaving for the weekend… although depending on your time zone that might have passed already). It’s not going to come off as if you’re criticizing their process, it’s going to come off as if you’re trying to schedule something they told you they want to schedule.

      As for getting over the post interview blues. I like to give myself something else to hope for by diving head first into my job hunt. Having another “what if” to think about puts less pressure on this one position and gives you something else to focus on (and fall back on if this one doesn’t end up working out). I find my best job searching happens when I’m waiting for an interview response.

  174. Jadelyn*

    I’d suggest trying to wait out the weekend and checking in next week – maybe wait until Wednesday so it’s 1 week past when they said they’d contact you.

    If you absolutely CAN’T wait, I’d say something like “Hey, we had discussed setting up another [meeting/interview/conversation/other appropriate term for whatever you’d discussed] when we spoke on the 14th. I’m reviewing my schedule for next week and wanted to check in with you to see if I should be reserving a time for us to get together and talk – can you please let me know?” That makes it more about the schedule and timing, than about their process.

    But if you can manage, I’d try the chill pill route first and see what happens early next week first.

  175. SirTechSpec*

    This week I told my boss, with words, that while I’ve been willing to pitch in and be PM for our last couple major projects because I feel strongly about project management, I want someone else to take the next one. Furthermore, I would explicitly not like to be the full-time project manager for our department if we create such a position in our next reorg (which several people including me have been saying we should do.) What a load off my mind! I’m much happier and able to focus on the current project now that there’s light at the end of the tunnel and I’ll likely be able to get back to the technical work that I enjoy and have been neglecting.

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      Yay! Getting the courage up for those sorts of thing can be hard, I’m glad it worked out.

  176. Jilly*

    A few weeks ago I applied to for a team leader position at work. Due to someone leaving and some reshuffling internally, they had/have 2 open positions. I interviewed. I am so new to this team (only 5 months). But I figured it was still worth applying since the chances of another team leader position coming up on this project is slim (when the project ends in 2 years, we are all out of a job unless we win the follow on or move on to another project that the company is implementing – we are gov’t contractors). Anyway, got a meeting invite for next Tuesday with the Project Director, Deputy Director, and Corporate Project Manager. Just labeled “Follow Up”. Only scheduled for 15 minutes. If I am not getting a job, it seems overkill to have a meeting with all three when I could just have a meeting with the PM. Or get a very nicely worded email (that’s been my usual experience for internal job applications). But 15 minutes seems short if I did get the job because there are some reorg issues that would need to be discussed. This is also slightly tricky because the Director and PM work for the prime contractor and I am an employee of one of the subcontractors and so they wouldn’t be authorized to discuss salary with me, but the Deputy does work for the same company as me and plus there are weird layers of pay – not only does my actual rate have to be profitable to my company (we bill the gov’t a fixed rate regardless of what I get paid), it also has to be profitable to the prime contractor (ie Prime bills gov’t $X, pays my company $Y, and then they pay me $Z). Now I have to worry about it all weekend.

  177. legalchef*

    Posting a little late in the day, but… after my loss in July, I am pregnant again! Just under 6 weeks right now.

    So… for those who have been there, how do you deal with hormones that make you cry while at work? The other day I had a really awful experience with the client (involving a lot of yelling at me sitting 2 feet from me) and when I was no longer in that situation (and not with the client) I teared up and some of my coworkers saw, because they all heard the yelling and wanted to check on me. I am assuming it was because of my hormones, since the next day I had a frustrating phone call about something not at all serious and not work related and also teared up.

    I just started this job 6 weeks ago, so these are not coworkers that I have a lot of street cred with, and I don’t want them to think that this is my usual. I basically just said “I’m not upset, this is just my reaction to being so frustrated and getting yelled at but not really being able to do anything about it.”

    1. H&S B**ch*

      1) Congratulations!
      2) I’m a natural crier and I asked a question earlier in this post and received some great suggestions for how to hold it together. Now I’ve never been pregnant so I don’t know if they’ll be equally helpful but just in case. Hit ctrl + F and in the new box that pops up type H&S. Read the comments under H&S B**ch
      3) I would hope that any sane workplace would only feel sympathy for you in the situation described above, we’ve all been yelled at by an inappropriate customer.

      1. legalchef*

        Thanks!!!

        They were definitely understanding and it certainly wasn’t like I was crying over nothing, but all things being equal I’d rather not cry at work at all! I’ll look at the comments upthread.

    2. Jules the First*

      Oh congratulations! I remember your earlier posts and I’m so happy for you!

      No advice to offer on the hormones though…

      1. legalchef*

        Thanks so much!!!! I’ll definitely be posting in a few weeks about issues relating to announcing a pregnancy/ being pregnant at a job at which I’ve only worked for 3 months!

    3. Pixel*

      Congratulations :-) may your new pregnancy be long and boring!

      It’s an emotional time, for sure, and unfortunately normal work environment requires emotions to be bottled-up or being considered “unprofessional” (and feeling out-of-sorts and not sleeping well don’t help).

      I find that giving room to all the feels helps keep them at bay. Schedule mental health breaks, even (and especially) when the #@* hasn’t hit the fan yet. Physically, make sure you are well hydrated, nourished and rested. Accept that crying will happen (this advice also applies to when baby is here). Just roll with it, take it easy, maintain your physical and mental health, and count the weeks to the second trimester.

    4. A Large Cantelope*

      Congratulations! I had a loss and got pregnant again within a similar timeframe (38 weeks now). I don’t have any advice, since I mostly work from home, but hang in there!

  178. mander*

    Well, I was worried about the repercussions of a situation that happened last week at work, but in a bit of silver lining I didn’t have to deal with it at all. I came down with a horrible case of genuine influenza on Sunday and spent the whole week in bed. Since it was the last week of the contract I don’t have to go back either.

    Sucks that I lost a week of pay, now that I’ll be unemployed again, but at least I didn’t have to deal with the shouting.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I don’t quite feel like I can congratulate you on being ill (!) but I applaud you for finding the silver lining in an otherwise tough situation (work) and never-fun-being-sick

  179. chickabiddy*

    I know it’s late in the day (and that’s something I may want to talk about in the open thread tomorrow) and I’m sorry, but now that Christmas decorations are in all the stores, I have a question. I know the standard is “don’t gift up”. I am a freelancer and have a decent working, but not at all personal, relationship with the guy I report to. He’s pretty high up in the company and it’s across the country, if that matters. The work is pretty steady and it amounts to about a half-time job.

    Do I not gift because he is my boss, or do I gift because he is my client? I’m not thinking of anything extravagant or personal, but the area where I live has a “special” cookie and I would probably send a box of those — from the bakery, not homemade, because even though my kitchen and I are clean enough he has no way of knowing that. If he doesn’t like them he could put them in the staff room and I’d never know, so I think it’s a relatively safe gift.

    1. Nanc*

      If he throws a lot of work your way, the cookie idea sounds nice.

      Full disclosure: I work for a marketing agency that uses many contract writers and designers and we always send them holiday gifts and some of them send us gifts. We’re delighted to get them as they’re usually edible, but it’s not expected.

  180. Area51*

    How do you explain to recruiters that you’re again looking for a job–kind of soon after leaving the last one–because the current company has such a high rate of attrition? In my department alone this year, we’ve lost over half the staff. The company also had a layoff, and even more people left after that. It’s getting difficult to get work done because the role isn’t filled or is handled by someone who has 1000+ other things to do. I don’t want to be job hunting, but feel like I better not ignore the reality of what’s going on.

    1. NW Mossy*

      “My current employer has had a layoff and the overall situation is more unstable than I anticipated.” Any reasonable person is going to get why you want to leave a company where your job is insecure.

  181. Kate*

    What are some good ideas for all-staff Christmas gifts in the $20 range? I work in environmental remediation, and a lot of staff work in the field, so I was thinking Leathermans or backpacks, but those are too pricey. We already issue t-shirts. Thanks!

    1. Loopy on Allergy Meds*

      As far as I’m concerned you can never have too many commuter mugs–the nice metal ones! Amazon e-gift cards are also nice because you can bank them in your account. You say your staff works in the field, what about nice fingerless gloves or watch caps? Or those fleece headbands that go over baseball caps so your ears stay warm? What has your staff gushed about in the past? Or bitched they need and always lose?

      1. Kate*

        The fingerless/convertible gloves are a great idea! I admit I’ve only seen a couple people with thermoses… they’re more watter bottle types. (Think, they actually carry gallons of water.)

        I’m new here and hear we’ve given overpriced chocolates in the past. I wanted to switch it to something useful.

    3. Cruciatus*

      What about a portable device charger? They’re good for recharging your phone or whatever smallish device on the go. Granted, you may not want them to be recharging these things while trying to work!

      1. Girasol*

        My boss gave those out at the last big office wingding and they were a huge hit. Everybody loved ’em.

  182. Elizabeth West*

    Probably nobody will see this because it’s so far down, but in two weeks, I’m going to attend my first writing conference!!

    I have a photo shoot tomorrow and I’m hoping I can get pics back in time to fast-order some new business cards (my old ones have an old pic on them and my hair color is completely different now). I booked a room, albeit cheap but with a fridge, and it’s within driving distance, and I’ve arranged to be off work so I don’t have to drive in the dark to an unfamiliar place on Friday. I’ll be coming back Monday morning and then going right to work.

    The conference is a whole weekend–early Saturday morning through Sunday evening, which is why I’m staying over so I don’t miss anything. But it’s two very long days packed full of events. Any tips would be appreciated. The only time I’ve ever been to a conference was when I worked for SIFE, and we were working, not really attending.

    –What do I wear? I’ve literally never been to one of these, and I want to look professional but also be comfy. Can I wear skinny jeans with nice shoes and a blazer?
    –What if I’m attending a panel and have to go pee? Is it okay to just get up and go? I have a tiny bladder!
    –Will I need my computer? Probably not I’m guessing, but I don’t have a tablet, only a Kindle. Grr. I need something small!

    I know I’m not supposed to fangirl, but one of the keynote speakers/panelists is Chuck Sambuchino of the Guide to Literary Agents book and blog and the humor book How to Survive a Garden Gnome Attack (hilarious), and I’m a huge fan. HOW CAN I NOT BE EXCITED??

    1. H.C.*

      1) Your outfit sounds fine for convention, but if in doubt – refer to what the attendees & panelists are wearing in previous years’ conferences (unless this is the inaugural one.)
      2) It’s fine to go use the restroom when nature calls, but don’t expect the seat to still be there when you return (and in some cases with closed-door sessions, you may not be allowed back in.)
      3) Depends on the type of work you need to get done while at the conference; for networking purposes, exchange of biz cards/information (& a follow-up email shortly after conference concludes) is fine. However, if there are writing w0rkshops, critique sessions, etc. you may need to bring your laptop and/or hard copies.

      Hope you enjoy the conference!

    2. Joanna*

      If at all possible, wear comfortable shoes. You don’t want to get caught lining up for ages in shoes that are hurting your feet.

      You probably don’t have time to organise it for this event, but I brought a cheap older model iPad mini and a very cheap generic brand miniature bluetooth keyboard which works well for typing small pieces on the go.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Usually there are breaks between sesssions, even if only 5 minutes; there is usually time to go to the bathroom.

      Bring a bottle of water, so if you have a dry throat, you can take a sip of water. A lot of conference venues will provide water, some even provide notepads and pens, some even have great give-aways; depends on the type/vendors, etc.

      Wear you badge and try not to lose/misplace it. (Some conferences are really strickt about it; others could care less. I’ve been at both.)

      Agree with comfy shoes. Since it is at a hotel and the food there is usually overpriced and 9 times out of 10 every time I go to a conference, there seems to be no options within walking distances, I always pack protien bars/nuts/chocolate/craisins, etc. – becuase too often that is my dinner one night, when I finally get back to my hotel room at 10 after the last session/”party” (that never had any food, just a cash bar)….

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Thanks, all!

      I do have a very nice pair of shoes that are also comfy. They’re Romiko leather walking shoes. I bought them for London and they were worth every penny. The event is not at the hotel–it’s at the university student center so there will be some running around, I guess. (It’s at Mizzou.)

      The website said “You will also want a laptop, iPad, notebook, etc to take notes during sessions.” I guess I’ll have to have my lappy; I can’t write very fast and I don’t have the money to buy a smaller machine right now. If I take my small backpack, I won’t need to carry my purse too. :)

      They’re providing lunch, and the hotel has free brekkie, and the room has a fridge, so I was going to bring some snacks for afterward. That’s a great reminder about the badge–I will wear my Avengers lanyard and clip the badge to it. :)

  183. Anoners*

    Is it bad form to do a phone interview while at work? Let’s say you have your own office with a door that locks.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve done it before. Just be absolutely 100% certain you won’t be disturbed.

      At the time my boss already knew I was looking at jobs, but I didn’t want to advertise it to everybody else at work. Discretion is professionalism.

  184. Franzia Spritzer*

    I’m always so late to this party. le sigh. I’mma try anyway.

    I’m a moving image artist, I just graduated with a MFA (I’m older, 47), and I’d like to teach at the university level, I have always wanted to teach, always. I’ve gotten a lot of encouragement from my peers, professors and faculty telling me I’ll be great, which is great and I got great feedback on my seminar segments as a TA. What I have’t gotten, despite my asking every single person I’ve met, is any actual guidance to becoming a professor, I heard a lot of great stories though. I have googled it, but I think in this instance mentorship will be more valuable to me than a hodgepodge I assemble from stuff I pluck from the internet.

    What’s a, and how do I develop a teaching statement/philosophy? I mean… I can guess, but I can also see really missing the mark without any understanding of the formality or structure of this type of document.

    What’s expected in syllabi? How is that different from a “Learning Outcome”?

    Am I thinking too hard? Am I making these documents harder to write than they need to be?

    1. H.C.*

      Given your good rapport with faculty and professors in your MFA program, I would go back to them to see if they can spare some time (half hour over coffee or hour over lunch?) to talk about their career paths and what did they do leading up to their current jobs – and what was the application/interview/hiring process like (a good time to segue into that “teaching philosophy/syllabus/learning outcome” inquiry). Also, you should ask them to be candid about the realities of the occupation (esp in light of recent coverage about teaching-only adjunct professors & the long hours they work for low pay and little job security.)

      I would also look at job openings for adjunct professor positions in the field(s) you’re interested in teaching in, so you can get a better idea of the qualifications they are seeking for such roles.

      Good luck!

      1. bibliovore*

        The professor is In is the book and blog that I recommend for the best information about becoming an instructor in higher education.

    2. SophieChotek*

      What about looking at your own syllabi? Do they help at all?
      Did you not need to TA as a grad student? What sort of assistance/mentorship did the prof give then?
      But honestly, you’ve pinpointed an issue in HigherEd — at least a generation ago, several observers would have said that the university system is great at churning out scholars who can write (reasonaby well), research well, theorize and analyze, but do not necessarily have any clue how to teach. Many universities have graduate teaching institutes, or the like, to try to start to combat this issue.
      I do think there are good (ha academic) books out there that address some of these issues – sort of like “covr letter examples” or “resume examples” – syllabi examples.
      I agree, mentorship woud be ideal – but if you can’t then – yeah, it might be some hodgepodge, of syllabus from online, etc
      But if you teach intro classes, a lot of times you have no say, and the syllabi might be handed to you anyway…

  185. Tim*

    We have a whodunit-style mystery happening at my workplace. It involves a cup of pee.

    Said cup was found inside a locked room that only 20 people have access to. We can reasonably eliminate at least 8 based on who was around at what time. We have unofficially appointed someone we believe to be blameless and impartial as the Detective. She is interviewing the suspects. There is much speculation on motive. There’s a restroom close to the locked room, so it seems unlikely that anyone could be reduced to such desperate straits, but it seems equally unlikely that someone would have left the cup there on purpose. It was a plastic cup of a kind not readily found in the building. Several people have admitted, when questioned by the detective, to seeing it but not looking at it closely, which seems suspicious (there are not usually cups of pee or cups of anything lying around our workplace, so one would be expected to get a closer look). Multiple convoluted theories have been put forth, mostly involving (a)spies or (b)interactions with a contractor that necessitated full-scale action sequences. Both are delightful to imagine.

    I love whodunits and I have waited all my life to be involved in one. Now I am, and it is about a cup of pee. I’m fine with this.

    1. Jean*

      Maybe someone captured a sample for a medical care provider, but forgot to take it when they left the building (or the bathroom) and were unable / too embarrassed / too stressed out / whatever else to return to retrieve it. I recommend that the detective be very careful not to breach someone else’s privacy.

      1. HannahS*

        Yeah…realistically, either someone is playing a prank and is being rewarded with a lot of attention, or one of your coworkers is completely mortified and becoming more uncomfortable by the minute.

  186. Random Citizen*

    Work email question!

    I currently work at a satellite location and have been here for about two years (entry-level job). This week, my great-grand boss at our main office called to let me know about a job opening at the main office that would be a huge step up. Actually, I personally think I’m pretty under-qualified for it, but he has a reasonably good idea of my skills and aptitude and thought I could pick it up, so I’ll take his word that it’s a job that can be “picked up.”

    A former coworker from my office moved to the main office last year to do the exact job Big Boss just called me about (there are 4-5 people currently in that role). This coworker has more experience than I do, but a pretty similar career path/interests, and we both appreciated and respected each other while we were working together previously. We’ve emailed once or twice since he left (work-related), and I’d like to talk to him about the job and the office culture of the main office.

    My conundrum is – I’m pretty sure my boss and boss’s boss, who both work at my satellite office don’t know about this job suggestion, and I’d rather not bring it up to them now (I probably wouldn’t move to the new job for several months, if I ended up applying and getting the job). Is it okay to email my coworker? I only have his work email – no personal email or phone number. What I really want is to ask if he’d be available to call sometime and talk about it, since that would be easier (the offices are about two hours apart, so we can’t meet in person easily), but I don’t know how to phrase it in my email – my office shares computers and leaves them unlocked often enough that I feel weird being explicit about a potential job offer.

    tl;dr I want to talk to a former coworker now located 2 hours away at our main office about a potential job opportunity at MainOffice suggested by Big Boss without alerting my manager. What’s the best way to do that?

    1. Jersey's Mom*

      I’d email “Hi Joe, I’d like to talk with you about a non-urgent work question. Is there a good time to call you?” If he tries to engage over email, just say “It would be simpler and faster to discuss”. When you get him on the phone, he should understand; most people that have been working for a while understand the need for a phone vs email conversation.

      By setting up a time to talk, you can reserve a conference room or take a break/lunch and get out of the office so your side of the discussion is not overheard.

      Worst case scenario, someone hears about it. You can simply say “I’ve been thinking about my future with this company and wanted to know more about what Joe’s job entails.” or “I’m interested in the different career paths offered in this company and thought I’d find out a bit more about XX”.

    2. vpc*

      Just go ahead and send an email to their work account from your personal address. ‘hey, been a while, hope you’re still enjoying working at Main Office – I’ve heard there might be an opportunity there and I’d love to get your perspectives on it. Would you be willing to chat for 15-20 min sometime? I’d rather keep this off the email servers.’

      and then when they say of course it’s fine, you respond with a few time options, and make it clear that you’d be happy to take their suggestions for a better time too.

  187. TGIF*

    I had an interview where the first question was “How long did it take for you to get here?” I thought she was just making conversation, but when I gave my answer, they all wrote down how long it took for me to get there! It was a weird interview- I know I didn’t get it because they wanted someone with a broad range of experience and I fumbled my way through. But they kept cracking jokes and goofing around, it was hard to tell what was serious and what wasn’t. The director was condescending and rubbed me the wrong way- he was also very sarcastic, so that was unappealing as well. It was bad all around and I felt like crap afterwards, I’m glad not to be getting it.

    1. Lance*

      I don’t really see the first question as bad, really (though it shouldn’t really be the first question, and they could probably estimate it from your address listed on your resume/application). Either way, definitely sounds like you dodged a cultural mismatch bullet.

    2. MissGirl*

      That is a weird question. Did they mean commute or in the broader spiritual sense? I was a born on a summer day…and 30 years later here I am.

      1. TGIF*

        LoL- they meant commute time. It’s just weird because I am located in the next town or two over. It only 30 minutes to get there. My last job I commuted over an hour and it wasn’t a problem.

  188. Genebec*

    I hope I’m not too late for the thread! New grad, first real job just got offered, hooray.

    My question is, they have a health screen, and they ask about prescription medications you take. I have mental illnesses, that are under control with medication, but I worry that if I disclose that they will withdraw the offer because it’s something of a high stress position (though my therapist supports me doing it). Thoughts on whether I should disclose?

    1. Lance*

      Don’t disclose the actual illnesses, by any means (and if they do decide by the illnesses themselves, well, that’s flat-out illegal); ask them about the possible stresses of the job, and let them know that there might be such and such issues, but that you have it under control. Sweeping it completely under the rug can potentially bite you, but if you’re confident in the offer, you should be able to at least say something (under the basis, again, that you’re confident it’s under control).

  189. Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler*

    Well, I had a meeting on Monday with the personnel department of a new job to turn in new employee paperwork for a part-time job. They assure me that it is all just a formality now, but Friday has passed and no one has contacted me about when I will actually start. (The department manager was on vacation all last week.) I guess I’ll just be waiting by the phone for whatever on Monday. When I actually start working, I think it will be a fun place to work and that I should be able to pick up some good experience and new job skills.

    I also had a phone interview about a second part-time job (where they offered to teach me Quick Books). I think that I could have worked it out if I could have balanced both part-time jobs, but Job #2 wanted me to be on call to fill in at pretty much anytime. I thanked them for their interest but said I didn’t think it would be a good match for me. I feel kind of bad about it, but it really would not have worked out, since I really need to have two part-time jobs or one good full-time one.

    I’ve also applied for some part-time retail jobs for the Christmas season that I hope will balance out with my new part-time job.

    On a personal note, I had a terrible time digging through old paperwork to find my social security card to show the personnel department. It was in a folder with some letters that I had looked in at least twice before. On the positive side, I also found some other important paperwork that I will probably need at some point in the future (my certified copy of my birth certificate and the title to my car). I must have spent at least eight hours digging through files of stuff.

    I also found a ruler, a rubber hammer, a screw driver and a pair of pliars in my files.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Since Department head is on vacation I would think it’s a waiting game. But I understand it’s tense until it’s really really official and you are working. Job #2 “on call” all the time seems unrealistic to me; like Bob has a problem right now, quick get our on-call person in!

      I know the feeling of cleaning out paperwork – been doing that and finding all sorts of odd things, as well as ridiculous numbers of duplicates. I understand why I might have a duplicate, but putting the duplicate with the file with the original defeats the purpose (!).

      Nice interesting other thing…and glad you found some other paperwork that will be important.

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