open thread – October 28-29, 2016

by Alison Green on October 28, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread — and DAY EIGHT of my complete laryngitis! I am rather demoralized.

Despite that, the comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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{ 1,412 comments }

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    1. Jennifer*

      Argh, too bad I didn’t notice earlier it was laryngitis. Might be kinda late now, but I found out that a hippie remedy called “friar’s balsam” (you can order it off Amazon) actually works great for heading off laryngitis when it’s coming on.

      (The way I found this out was that I used to be a newspaper reporter and had to do a story on a hippie food store when I had laryngitis coming on.)

        3. Rincat*

          I got something like during college, when I had laryngitis, tonsilitis, and a sinus infection! Basically just everything connected to my sinuses were infected. Took me about 3 weeks to really recover with some heavy steroids. I hope you recover soon!

        4. Aurion*

          Oh wow, that’s terrible. Your husband is in similar straits, I’m guessing?

          Speedy recovery to the both of you!

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes — not quite as bad as me, but he’s had it for three weeks. He brought it back from Scotland, so currently I am thinking baleful thoughts toward the Scots.

            1. Blue Anne*

              He brought the Dreaded Lurg back to America? I’m pretty sure that qualifies as biological warfare.

            3. Gaara*

              I was going to recommend umcka, which you can find at like Whole Foods or on Amazon. In my experience it really can help to ward off a cold or to shorten the duration. It’s like magic for the common cold. As I understand it there are actually studies demonstrating this, unlike most of the other things people think of as cold remedies. But I don’t know if it would do any good for laryngitis, bronchitis and pink eye. :(

        5. JuniperGreen*

          Now that’s what they call a triple threat!

          Something similar happened to me as I was graduating college – two nights before I was scheduled to walk for my diploma, my bronchitis and sinus infection got together, decided I wasn’t in enough pain, and dealt me a double ear infection.

          I hope your cats are good nursemaids (they make excellent furry hot water bottles). I recommend The Great British Bakeoff for a cheery series you can doze on and off to.

        6. SarahKay*

          Oh, that sounds truly miserable. Hope you’re better soon – and I second the recommendation for The Great British Bake Off as a cheery thing to watch when you’re feeling under the weather.

        7. Hlyssande*

          Multiple things at once is the WORST!

          When I had my wisdom teeth removed, I got dry sockets and strep throat at the same time and it was utterly miserable. I barely open my mouth enough to eat.

          I hope you feel better soon!

          1. Sophie Winston*

            That happened to me to – it was THE WORST. (Well, infected sockets, I’m not sure if that’s the same thing?) I ended up on powerful painkillers so I could drink enough to stave off dehydration.

        8. ginger ale for all*

          Oh, that is the worst hat trick of them all. I join in with everyone in wishing you well.

        9. Central Perk Regular*

          I’ve had laryngitis and bronchitis at the same time and it was awful – you have my sympathies.

        10. JMegan*

          Good grief, that sounds awful. Sending you virtual antibiotics, hand sanitizer, and warm fuzzy blankets. And I hope your husband and the cats are taking good care of you!

        12. Observer*

          Oy!

          Feel better. And, tea bags really do help with the pink eye.

          And, lots and lots of chicken soup

        13. Lily Rowan*

          Oh no! That is terrible! I hope you are taking care of yourself despite still apparently working all the time!

        20. Jennifer*

          EEEEE, that is a trifecta of pain. I hope they gave you the good drugs.

          I also feel badly for everyone your husband flew in with from Scotland. That’s probably an entire plane full of plague.

        23. Rahera*

          I’m really sorry to hear it. I hope you get better soon. Those are all the pits, especially the laryngitis…

        25. Bowserkitty*

          GROSSSSSSS. My best friend gets this combination frequently (teaching young children). Feel better!!! Lots of kitty snuggles.

    2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Me as well!

      I realized earlier this week it’s astounding the posting schedule you do normally! Also, still pretty impressive when sick!

      Take the time and I hope you feel better! Honey tea vibes your way. :) Maybe some Ricola lozenges…

      1. Meg Murry*

        Yes, no kidding! Unless you had a bunch of content prepared in advance, I’m thoroughly impressed that you didn’t just put up “I’m sick and miserable over here. Have an open thread until I feel like a human being again.”

        1. Chaordic One*

          Oh, yes. It is truly amazing how on top of things Alison is. And how it is so much more than an 8-hour workday. Extremely impressive!

  2. Frankie Seeks Job*

    I have this strange situation I got myself in, was wondering if I can get the communities’ wisdom in solving it. I’ve gotten a new job recently, but found it an ill fit. I want to get a new job before I quit though, but was wondering:

    Do I include this current bad job into my resume?

    I mean, I only been working here 2 months. It will look really weird on my resume. People generally say you should leave such jobs off from your resume.

    But at the same time, employed people are generally more desirable to hiring managers. If I don’t include it, it looks as if I am currently jobless at home.

    What should I do? Edit my resume to include my new job? Or leave it off?

      1. Frankie Seeks Job*

        I was rather desperate for a new job so was rather blinded by all the obvious red flags (had quit my previous one without a new job lined up).

      2. Mephyle*

        O Autocorrect, ‘I’ll fit’ and ‘ill fit’ are opposites for practical purposes. Humans know this but computer programs don’t!

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      If you stayed at your prior position for a few years and left on good terms, I don’t think a 2-month “vacation gap” would look bad. But are you sure you couldn’t make this new job last for a year?

    3. Moonsaults*

      Would you be willing to give a rundown of some of the flags and why it’s a bad fit? Are you looking for a job in the same field but at a better company or…? A little more background on why you’re leaving so we can see if it’s something you really want to pretend never happened or if it would be okay to say but perhaps you were hired to do X and now they have you doing Y and that’s not your agreed upon path, that would make sense to list and be able to explain away.

      1. Frankie Seeks Job*

        Well without revealing too much, I’ll say I’m currently in an industry where unpaid overtime is the norm. I had a lot of frustrations with my previous office, and firmly believed that my exhaustion was just due to the office politics and lack of variety in my work. After switching the office and once again feeling the dread and depression on hearing that the whole team could enjoy Christmas working in the office. I realised my problem couldn’t be solved by switching offices. It had to be solved by changing my entire industry.
        I just feel too old for this place. If I was straight out of school, I would have handled the work no problem. Now though…

        1. Moonsaults*

          So you are looking for something in a new industry is what it sounds like.

          Then listing the job isn’t too much of a big deal in my mind, since you’re saying “I’m looking for another adventure, I’ve been in Industry X for so long that I want to transform myself with Industry Z.”

          I wouldn’t put too much thought into it because in my experience it’s 50/50, some people will be all “two months, scrap it it’ll look bad.” others are going to say “2 months shows you’ve been working, people move on for different reasons, lots of hiring mangers know that.”

          There is a smaller applicant pool these days and it may very much work in your favor right now.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      I’d leave it off. 2 months and looking (unless you have a really good reason that you put in your cover letter) looks worse than unemployed on a resume.

      1. DreamQueen*

        What if they quote Spaceballs in the cover letter?
        “I’m surrounded by a$$holes!”

        Lol kidding. I just wanted to use that line today.

        2. MoinMoin*

          My coworker and I were having a little rant session about our department and he quoted Scent of a Woman: “Their spirit is dead; if they ever had one, it’s gone. You’re building a rat ship here, a vessel for sea-going snitches.”
          Man, we could probably have an entire thread of movie quotes that describe our jobs….

      2. Frankie Seeks Job*

        Thanks man. I think I better quietly delete that entry on linkedin too (I really should have paid attention to advice blogs saying to not update my linkedin till after your probation is finished)

    5. Jade*

      I’m in a similar position. I’ve decided to leave this job on for now, but will remove it in the future. One silver lining is that at least companies are unlikely to call your current employer for a reference, so at least they won’t get tipped off.

      1. Frankie Seeks Job*

        Man, thank you so much Jade. I was really down these few weeks, thinking I was the only person who did this, my mind a whirlwind of “It’s a job, you don’t NEED to like it” and “it’s the same everywhere”. Thanks for telling me that I’m not the only person who landed a bad job.

    6. Zee*

      Just like AAM says, your resume is a marketing document, not a comprehensive list of everything you have done with yourself at every minute of time. Just leave it off and say you were job searching during that time.

    7. Job Hopper Extraordinaire*

      I’ve been you, Frankie. I knew within 3 weeks of CurrentJob that it was a bad fit. But I was determined to stick it out for a year, because I didn’t want to look like too much of a job hopper. After about 6 months, I decided I really couldn’t stick it out, so I started looking. For me, the excuse was easy – it’s a terrible long commute, so that became my go-to reason for looking. No-one questioned it, or even gave me any side-eye. And the positive thing is that I start NewJob in just over a week’s time (but I’ll have made it to a year in CurrentJob – by two days!). But really, you don’t know how long it will take to find a new job, so I’d err on the side of leaving it on your resume (or leave it off for now, but if time starts to stretch out, consider putting it back on).

      1. Frankie Seeks Job*

        Aw thanks JHE. Yeah, that is probably better than my current approach. I’ll leave it off, but if job offers don’t come hopping in (when had they ever lol… CRIES), I’ll put it back in

    8. Gaara*

      I would think leave it on for now, but take it off the resume once you’re at your next job. I would rather explain why it’s become apparent that a new job is a bad fit than face unemployment stigma. Plus, you don’t want to lie, and if your resume doesn’t list a current position they’re going to ask “what are you doing now,” in which case you’re back to leaving a new job anyway.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        This would be my suggestion. I don’t agree with the above poster that jumping ship after 2 months looks worse than being unemployed, and depending on the type of role your looking for, it could be 3, 4, 6 months before you actually move on to something new.

  3. Jamey*

    I have good news, I just got accepted this week to give my first full talk at a professional conference! (I’ve done prepared lightning talks before but this is a full length talk and I will be attending the conference as a speaker.) It’s in December and I’m so excited! Any advice?

    1. JuniperGreen*

      Congrats! Are you looking for advice about public speaking or just professional conferences in general? Are you using slides? If so, my biggest pet peeve during conferences is when folks just read off of their slides.

      The thing that helps me most when speaking in public (presentations, speeches, even maid of honor toasts!) is to record myself and then listen to it. Then I re-record with my edits made, and re-listen (often in the car or while puttering around the house) to help me internalize my preferred phrasing. Writing it out makes this process sound a little insane but it is actually quite easy, I promise :)

      1. Jamey*

        About speaking! I’ve attended conferences before and I really enjoy them. I am using slides but I won’t just read off them, I like when slides are mainly just a couple of words and maybe some photos, I think it’ll be a good reminder to me about what I’m supposed to be talking about and I think people pay better attention when there’s slides even if the slides are simple. (That was advice I got from my boss, haha.)

        It doesn’t sound insane, it sounds like a really good idea! I’m definitely going to try it! Thanks!

        1. JuniperGreen*

          Awesome! If it’s in December and you’re already thinking about preparing, I bet your audience is in for a treat :)

        2. BRR*

          That was one thing I was going to suggest. I hate when I attend a meeting or presentation and somebody only recites their slides. Just email me the presentation then.

          1. Stephanie*

            I still remember the training presentation at FirstJob where someone just read from a 140-slide presentation. It was so bad. So, so bad.

          2. Aardvark*

            Thirding this! Slides work best when they support your speech by helping your audience focus on, think more deeply about, or make a personal connection to the information you’re sharing.

        3. Amy the Rev*

          I give speeches once a week for work, have consistently gotten very positive feedback on my speech-giving, and I’ve found the best general public-speaking advice to be:
          1. Speak slowly. Record yourself practicing and play it back so you can hear how quickly you actually talk.
          2. I find it helpful to write my speech out in a conversational way, with all the “you know”‘s, “so”‘s, elipses, all-caps, and other bits thrown in, and practice reading it out loud a few times to get the rhythm right. Write your speech to be heard, not seen (what folks in my field call, ‘writing for the ear’)
          3. I like to read from a manuscript (because I write my speeches in a conversational style), so when I type it up, I put an extra line between every couple of sentences, and print it in 16-18pt font, so that I don’t lose my place easily and don’t have to look down for too long. I also follow along with my finger sometimes so that I don’t have to search for where I was.

          1. Stephanie*

            YES on #1. Unfortunately, I speak like a high-school debater at times, so I’ve had to work on this one. I just have to speak in what sounds incredibly slow to my ears. If you do tend to speak quickly, almost over articulating helps with that as well.

            1. LQ*

              #1 here is a hard one for me (well I think I’m way better these days) a couple tricks: write in where you need to pause or remember to slow down, for me it is after I talk about a part I’m super excited about I’ll speed up, so after that I’ll take a longer pause (drink water/ask if anyone has questions) and this helps me return to a slower pace. Also? You can cheat this a little but pausing more frequently. If you speak quickly but pause frequently (for a couple beats, not just a single breath) you’ll be easier to understand and people can catch up better.

          2. Jamey*

            That’s great advice! In my lightning talks, I’ve been worried I would go over my 5 minute allotted time and the advice has been, “well just talk fast!” So now that I have more time I should definitely focus on slowing it down (especially since there is going to be a sign language interpreter)

            1. fposte*

              There might also be ESL speakers.

              I find it helpful to have the rhythm of somebody else’s speech in my head and try to match it rather than to just tell myself “slow down.” (I use a long-ago TV essayist, which is kind of random but seems to help me.)

        4. Stephanie*

          I find summaries in the title really helpful. Say your slide has a graph, it helps to see the title as “Chocolate Teapot Sales are Down 4% This Quarter” so if I zone out or am reading the slides later, I’m not just thinking “Huh? What did this chart mean again? Why did she want me to see it?”

          I think one of the commenters here gave me this tip and it’s been super helpful–think of three things you want your audience to take away and use that to structure your presentation.

          Also, if you can make it interactive, that helps A TON. Doesn’t have to be anything complicated–could just be asking people on how their division has improved teapot sales or asking for input occasionally. Anything to avoid reading from slides for an hour.

          1. Jamey*

            Awesome, I’ll definitely keep that in mind, especially the 3 things I want people to take away! It’s only a 15-20 minute talk so I’m not as worried about being boring as just being flustered (:

      3. Joseph*

        “If so, my biggest pet peeve during conferences is when folks just read off of their slides.”
        Relatedly, your audience will often get so focused on reading the text (it’s there! it’s important!) that they actually stop paying attention to the words from your mouth.

      4. INFJ*

        On the flip side to that, it really annoys me when I go to a conference and the slides are FILLED with text, and what the speaker is saying doesn’t follow at all with what’s on the slides. Do I listen or do I read? I can’t do both!

        1. HYDR*

          I was recently at a conference (small group discussion where we all prepped beforehand), and a few people mis-read the instructions. We were supposed to sign up for topics/things that we DO, and DO WELL. They read it as signing up for things they wanted to learn HOW TO DO. You can imagine the waste of time and red cheeks they had while trying to ‘present’.

          So, sounds like you are already way on top of the game ;)

    2. Joseph*

      Here’s my best tip: Do at least one “trial run” through your slides on something bigger than your monitor – conference room at your company, visit the library, even just connect your computer to output to your massive TV. Now stand in the room as far away as you can and run through your slides.
      Why? Because I can’t tell you how much text/graphics I’ve seen which were presumably fine when the author prepared them sitting 24″ from a PC monitor, but were borderline unreadable to the audience.

    3. Jersey's Mom*

      If they have you send the presentation in via email/download, whatever, bring an extra copy on a thumb drive – just in case it’s lost/misplaced on their end.

      Practice your speech out loud at least a few times and use a timer. What’s helped me stay on time is knowing that in a 30 minute talk, when I hit minute 15, I should be on slide 18.

    4. Pipes32*

      I actually partially majored in public speaking in college, and here’s what works for me:

      First, I write down what I want to say. Actually write it by hand, don’t type it. Writing tends to cement it into your brain better than simple typing. The key to good public speaking is having a good idea of what you’re wanting to say. Not necessarily memorized, but being able to talk to slides or a preso with not much prompting.

      Second, remember to pause and go slowly. These pauses and slowness will sound agonizing to you and very “fake”, but will do well with the audience.

      Try to vary your tone – monotone speakers are tough.

      Don’t forget body language. Simple hand gestures are good, wild gesticulating is not. If you’re not in front of a podium, slow walking (to address different parts of the audience) is natural, but be careful not to pace.

      PRACTICE. If I really want to knock it out of the park, run-throughs do wonders.

      I echo another suggestion in doing a few runthroughs with recording, video if possible, to see how it looks.

      You will do great!

      1. Sci-fi_worker_girl*

        Agree, I cannot emphasize enough the practice part. A few pearls I learned from past presentations:
        1. Practice in something like the room they will have if you can. Is t a group of 20 vs a conf room for 100? If you can at your job, reserve a room load up the presentation and pretend you are live. Projector, hook up your computer, play with the wireless mouse, etc. like a dress rehearsal (yes, old musician her) :-). A few run throughs will give you confidence and even if you do what you think is “average” it will still likely be waaaay better than you think because you prepared.

        2. Unexpected preparation. Have 2 presentations ready: one for a light room it’s windows (lighter ppt background) and one for a dark room. That way you are prepared for whatever funky lighting may be there. Have your stuff ready in various formats- jump drive, saved to your email, etc. bring your own mouse, pointer clicker – it’s amazing sometimes what conferences expect presenters to bring. Computer? Littl connector t vga, etc. Make sure they spell out what they will provide. Think of this collection like your presentation emergency kit (mine has a jump drive with copy, a few written notes, wireless mouse wth lasar pointer, star batteries, Mac cord for monitor connection, iPad connector just in case and chocolate (my drug of choice).

        3. Record. Your voice will sound different (we cannot really hear hear our own voice, that’s why we sound so different on answer machines). Listen for content, etc. are you adding in ums or speeding, etc. even when not videoing, audio is helpful. And the timer in ppt is helpful too – often we have too many slides. Build in some extra time, people ask/ comment.

        4. Sounds dorky, pick your outfit, shoes and practice in it (or stay with what you know – untested clothes, shoes can ride up, itch, hurt, etc. anything gets more pronounced if you are nervous).

        Congrats and you will do great!

    5. periwinkle*

      I’m at a conference right now! (FYI to any conference planners out there – leave room in the schedule for people to eat lunch, for cryin’ out loud)

      Keep your slides simple. Don’t make me read a lot of text and don’t give me something to read while you’re talking because I won’t be paying attention to what you’re saying. Images are good and can inject a little humor if you choose wisely (but don’t get overly cute – know your audience/topic and keep images appropriate)

      Make sure your contact info is available in the program and on your intro or final slide. A lot of people here are whipping out their smartphones and taking pictures of slides to grab that contact info where they won’t lose it – so make that email address really big and clear!

      Pace yourself in speaking. You don’t want to feel rushed. Practice so you can figure out what kind of speaker notes work best for you.

      And relax. We’re here because your topic sounded useful or cool. We’re a friendly audience! (note: this applies to professional conferences – academic conferences are different…)

      1. Elizabeth West*

        The conference I’m going to next weekend is providing lunch! :D

        Of course, it’s in the student center at the university where it’s being held, so it will probably just be their food…. errrghh. But hey, free lunch.

    6. Technical Editor & Resume Reviewer*

      The thing that helped me the most was reading the book “Presenting with Credibility” (you can get it on Amazon). It is chock-full of great presentation advice. In my first conference presentation, I used about 10 of his suggestions and it really calmed my nerves and helped me feel extra prepared.

    7. LQ*

      Awesome! Everyone else has good words of wisdom so I’ll follow with one I haven’t seen. (

      My number one tip is don’t apologize! Not for your voice or the sound system or the slides or things not working or your topic.

      This can feel like a good way to have people understand or pre-forgive, but it is very distracting and takes away from your own awesomeness.

    9. DragoCucina*

      Over prepare content, but don’t try and squeeze it all in. I tend to speed speak in the session–not too fast, just faster than I practiced. After my questions slide I will throw in my contact info slide, then one or two slides on side examples. The talk is on advocating for chocolate teapots. All the questions are done. I’ve reiterated my contact info. I’ll have a slide on white chocolate teapots. Who has worked with white chocolate teapots? Did you find it different than chocolate teapots? It fills the time with a connected topic (and someone always wants to talk about the connected topic), but it can be easily left out. You’ll do great.

    10. Snazzy Hat*

      Practice in front of the mirror. Both of my parents and I were lectors (readers at church) at times in our lives, and my father has given guest lectures in his field. It amazes me how much more dynamic I can be when I’m on the phone pacing around my house and I wander over to a mirror and talk at my reflection.

    11. vpc*

      So much YES to all the words about practice, practice, practice, in front of a mirror, in a conference room, with notes, with script, with recording. A couple of my own tricks —
      1. I use slide animations a lot so that things come up as I’m talking about them (i.e. “point the first” click to advance “point the second” click to advance “point the third”) — that keeps people from seeing the entire slide at the beginning and concentrating on reading it while I’m talking. When I’m scripting, I insert a reminder to myself every time I need to advance the animation, like etc (and never NEVER NEVER use animated gifs, dancing paperclips, or that kind of animation).
      2. How many times have you heard someone say, “I know you can’t read what’s on this slide, but…” Don’t be that person.
      3. There are some great books and resources about how to craft good slides. In a nutshell: not too much information per slide; make it big enough to see from the back of the room; don’t use distracting/annoying stuff like crazy fonts or unrelated pictures.
      4. Another trick I use is to prep my talk for 2/3 of the allotted time. You can easily fill the remaining third with questions – or with a related / bonus slide like I saw mentioned above – but that gives you space to extemporize while you’re speaking without running out of time. I always find myself adding a little more detail than I’d originally scripted when I am talking.
      5. If you read off a script – I used to prep presentations for someone who was terrified of public speaking, to the point he’d freeze up and absolutely HAD to have a script or he’d just walk off stage without saying anything – print it out in 24-pt font with a 4″ bottom margin on your page and a blank line after every sentence. The spacing helps you stay on track with where you’re reading from, and the bottom margin / large font size make it much easier for you to look up at your audience and seem like you’re not reading. Oh, and number the pages clearly, for when you drop them on your way to the podium and need to get them back in order quickly.

    12. Artemesia*

      Great news. I have done a lot of this and remember well how nervous I was the first time I gave a keynote; now I love doing it. I am sure you will do great, after all it is presumably about things you are a real expert in. FWIW. Think carefully about the first minute of the talk — something that engaged people right off the bat can make a big difference. An anecdote, a question, even polling the house on their experience with the topic (where that would make sense) — something to hook their attention. And think about the last minute as well, something punchy to leave them with. I usually open to questions and then close the questions with whatever key idea I want to leave them with so it comes off polished. I usually organize around 3 main points and use notes that are a bare outline i.e. remind me what comes next but don’t allow me to slog through reading, because the text isnt there. Build the scaffolding in visuals or notes that give you confidence but try to present as spontaneously as you can. Of course the norms of your profession and your conference shape what you do but within that the person who grabs their attention with a strong challenge, question, story etc and speaks without reading and focuses on a few key points will generally make a positive impression regardless of the overall framework.

      Good luck and have fun.

    13. Anion*

      Another tip I haven’t seen anyone else give: If you’re doing a slide presentation from a laptop, *clear personal pictures from it or make sure you’ve disabled any kind of photo-based screensaver.*

      A good friend of mine was doing a presentation at a junior high school–her kids’ school!–and closed her laptop when it was done, so she could answer questions. But the laptop didn’t shut down (because it was transmitting to the screen, I think) and, being in slideshow mode, it opened the next folder on her hard drive and started displaying her personal photos–the first of which was a picture, taken by her new husband, of her in the bathtub.

      She almost broke her laptop, she yanked the cord out so fast,

      Luckily it wasn’t explicit, and the school admin etc. were very understanding, but she was (obviously) horrified. It had never occurred to her that something like that could or might happen, so…just a tip. :-)

  4. Critter*

    I’m really sorry you’re not better yet :(

    I’m just waiting for this horrible payroll nonsense to be over. The day may come soon.

  5. JuniperGreen*

    Hang in there Alison, sending you get well vibes!!!

    So, last year I started a job in a non-profit industry to which I am relatively new. Given the institution’s limited resources, I have a dual role – think: Teapot Marketing & Teapot PR. My background lends itself much more to one piece than the other, let’s say I’ve done more Marketing than PR. My manager knew this when hiring me, and has supported me in getting trained up. I’ve spent a lot of time with free training resources since funds are tight, and a very overtaxed team has meant any internal training is catch as catch can. For the past year, I enjoyed the Marketing portion of my role, but often felt like I was just barely muddling through the other half.

    Now, a year later, my manager created a new role on our team and hired a full time Teapot PR person. There is more than enough work to share between us, and this new hire is already proving to be a great addition to the team. I can now actually get valuable training from an expert in the field! But… I can’t help but feel this new role wouldn’t have been created if I had been performing better. I know this is a great thing for our team (our goals do include growing the organization, after all), and am grateful to have this new team member as a valuable resource. But how can I shake this feeling that I’ve failed in my role?

    1. straws*

      If there’s enough work for both of you, then you had too much work for 1 person and they simply hired to the role that you were less suited for. So it’s not that the PR side is a weakness, but that Marketing is your strength and it made sense to keep you there and hire into PR.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s a really good way to look at it. Your organization is trying to play to your strengths, JuniperGreen, and that’s a good thing. They could have let you keep both functions and ultimately drown under too much work.

    2. JLK in the ATX*

      Shake it off and move on to what you do best. Don’t waste time thinking of what you couldn’t do and focus on your strenghts to grow the team/mission/organization. A lot of people would love to have their weaknesss fulfilled by someone who can do it well, and teach them something along the way. You are lucky!

      I’ve worked in non-profit for 16 years and it’s a miracle they chose to invest in two full positions that address PR and marketing. Most often these roles fall to the fundraiser/development person because that’s all they can afford despite the roles are very much different from one another.

      1. JuniperGreen*

        Thanks – you make a very good point.

        Just to clarify these roles aren’t *actually* marketing and PR, but the best analogs I could think of that have overlap but are distinct. In truth, they are more fundraising functions… so you caught me :)

        1. JLK in the ATX*

          Welcome. Even better that they invested in fundraising. Enjoy your new team partners and learn as much as you can – and impart what you know to them, too. It’s more fun that way.

        2. HYDR*

          If they are say, major gifts and annual fund, both are VERY important, and I’m glad your company recognized and is expanding its resources and personnel! I would say this is a big win, and in a small office you will learn so much from each other!

    3. Dawn*

      Marketing and PR are related, but separate roles within an organization- you didn’t fail at anything! I would think it’d be very hard to juggle both, and it’s a testament to your skill that you juggled both for a year!

      Seriously, at a non-profit marketing and PR are both incredibly important to the long-term success of the org so it absolutely makes total sense to have TWO people doing one role each instead of one person only being able to give both roles, at max, 50% effort. That isn’t a reflection on your skill, that’s just good business sense.

    4. Pari*

      Talk to your boss about it. If there is more than enough volume for both of you I bet that was more of a reason than your skills. Sure you probably feel like she’s taking something that was yours, but that is always better than having more than you can handle.

    5. SAT*

      If you were failing in your role, you would have gotten feedback to that effect, a performance plan, coaching, and possibly been let go or moved out of the role completely. It’s not easy to get funding for a whole second full-time position. Another person was required and they still wanted to keep you. And that person probably can’t do what you do best either.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Watch out for that dual thinking pit, it’ll get ya.
      On on hand you had a job that was overwhelming you, part of it did not even match your skill set. So you fretted about this, who wouldn’t, pretty normal to be concerned at this point in the story.
      On the other hand, your story line changes, the company hires someone to take up the parts that are just not your gig. It’s the easiest thing in the world at this point to start saying, “I failed somehow.”

      This means either way you are worried, no matter what happens in this story you are STILL worrying. That dual thinking: I want x, whoops, I got x and something is still wrong.

      Breathe. Take a moment to really, look at this. We have all heard the stories right? “I was overwhelmed at my job, they finally hired someone else to take half of my huge workload and then they fired me.” This type of story is legendary, we hear so much of it.

      Look at your UNIQUE setting and use the finer points to refute the idea that they will fire you. Don’t answer here but do consider these factors:
      How have your evals been?
      How’s your relationship with your boss/cohorts?
      How’s it going with the newbie?
      Thinking about the work that is in your arena, how has that been going? If you are not totally happy with it you can use these nagging doubts to motivate you to ramp up what you are doing.
      Do you basically LIKE the job/boss/cohorts/place? Sometimes when we don’t actually like something that will come out as random nagging doubts about everything.

      Punchline: If you still cannot shake off the feeling of failure then go straight to beefing up the parts of the job you are now responsible for. Once you look things over thoroughly, you will have burned up some of that extra energy you are feeling now and you will have made yourself even more impressive to the boss(es). There is nothing wrong with doing a self-check, matter of fact it’s probably a good idea.

  6. Marie*

    I had a phone interview yesterday for an internal position. These are always the most nerve wrecking for me but I think it went okay overall.

    Anybody else have any interviews this week?

    2. Jamey*

      What’s the most nerve wracking, phone interviews or interviews for internal positions?

      My last few interviews have been phone/skype ONLY and I didn’t meet anybody face to face at my current job until well after I’d accepted the offer!

        1. Lynne*

          Ha, I feel that way about phone interviews. And I have one coming up in a few days!

          I like Skype interviews much better (as long as the connection stays decent…) because you can see their expressions and body language. Phone interviewing is so blind!

          It’s an interview with a place in the Middle East. Maybe that’s why it’s not Skype (never really used video Skype with people halfway around the world, but the connection’s probably more liable to be hinky under those circumstances). I’m pretty excited, because this could be a major life change for me, but trying not to get TOO worked up about it…Must. Stay. Relaxed!

          Good luck to everyone interviewing!

    3. MissMaple*

      Congrats, I’m sure it went better than you think :)
      I had a phone interview and actually find myself excited about the prospects for once!

    4. TheSkrink*

      I had a phone interview this week too, with a committee of four no less. Super nerve-wracking, especially when you have to talk in your car at your current job’s parking lot.

      1. Marie*

        That’s exactly what I ended up doing! I have no privacy at my office so my coworker offered to let me sit in her car to do my interview. I was so glad though because I was freaking out about where I was gonna do my interview all week.lol

    5. Anon Millennial*

      My company is flying everyone out to the West Coast for our annual holiday party in December. It will be a 48 hour trip but the party is the only “mandatory” event. I’m non-exempt and make less than 47k. Am I technically eligible for OT under the new law?

    6. orchidsandtea*

      Congrats! Hope you get good news soon.

      A handful of interviews for temp placements and a part-time role coming up next week. It’s exhausting. I just want to feel settled.

    7. meowth*

      I had an interview for an internal decision, and I think they should have an answer by next week or the week after. I’m trying to just put it out of my head so I won’t be disappointed if I don’t get it, but they did contact my references so I think that has to be a good sign?

    8. Cordelia Naismith*

      I did! I just got back from one, also for an internal position. I think it went pretty well.

    9. AshK434*

      Yea, I just got done with with an intervew. I met with really nice people but I’ve been doing case studies for four hours so I’m just mentally exhausted. Unfortunately I think my exhaustion came through because my answers became rambly and incoherent towards the end. Let’s just say I’d be surprised if they want to move forward with me.Glad to hear your interview went well though!!

      1. Artemesia*

        It is always a bit of a mystery. I have gotten called back when I thought I was flat and not when I thought I had hit it out of the park. Hope you get a surprise here.

    10. J*

      I just finished an in-person interview this morning. I feel pretty confident that I put my best foot forward. If they opt to pursue another candidate, I can be satisfied with my own performance.

    11. Snazzy Hat*

      I had a temp agency interview Monday that went very well. Wednesday I was given a progress update on the positions we discussed (A & B), with the addition of an awesome position close to home (C). Thursday my agent and I arranged for a phone interview with B, and we continued to wait for a response about C. C is ideal; I’m familiar with the client, and their pay rate and post-hire raise is exactly what I’m looking for. B sounds fun and has a higher pay rate, but the assignment will be only two months and the commute is far but not bad (I used to work in that area). A is a position I’d like but in an industry I’m not too keen on despite my knowledge of it.

      For added uncertainty, I’ve completed two rounds of assessments this week. Did I do well enough? Who knows?

    12. Annby*

      Congrats! I’m sure you did better than you think.

      I had an interview on Monday. I think I represented myself well. The position is a stretch for me, and they basically told me that they have to weigh my informal experience in X with other candidates’ formal experience in Y. I’m not super optimistic. I should hear back about the second round of interviews at the beginning of next week, so at least I’ll know soon.

    1. Lemon*

      That was kind of fascinating. I love that Louisiana is “Tigers” – referring, no doubt, to the LSU football team. Hawaii’s “Heroin” has me a little concerned. I’m hoping that people are writing about heroin addiction harm reduction – not recreational use – on their resumes.

    3. Cordelia Naismith*

      My state’s (Georgia) hobby is Coca-Cola — which makes sense in that Coke’s headquarters is in Atlanta, but it also confuses me. How is Coke a hobby? Do they mean collecting Coke bottles and/or memorabilia? Or do people actually drink Coke as a hobby? Are there Coke-drinking tournaments; can you drink it competitively? Inquiring minds want to know!

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        I just realized that Rhode Island’s interest is Harry Potter. That’s awesome, Rhode Island!

    5. Panda Bandit*

      My home state has Superman. I love Superman but I don’t think I can classify that as a hobby.

  8. Anon Today*

    Get better soon!!

    I’m wondering if there are any librarians here who are willing to tell me about how you got into the field.
    Some background: I work in media, I’m in my late 20s. I’ve been in my current job for 3+ years and realized this isn’t for me (the hours, pressure to break news, competitiveness have led to a lot of stress-induced health problems).
    I like books, organizing, teaching people, learning new things, and want to give back to the community, so librarianship is something I’m considering. Some questions I have: 1) is a MLIS necessary to start in the field? I’m leery of going back to school (for a second MA no less) unless I’m sure this is something I want to do. But I’m not sure if there are ways to intern/volunteer around a job that takes up 50+ hrs/wk, not including commute 2) What’s your favorite part of your job? 3) What’s your least favorite part of your job? 4) What are job prospects like, realistically? (if relevant, I’m in NorCal)
    Thanks!

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Not a librarian, but my husband is. It’s my understanding that the master’s is necessary and that the job market is very very tough for librarians. I think there’s significantly more library school grads than librarian jobs.

      1. Hibiscus*

        I am a librarian. I have actually been in the field since high school with a few stops outside and many odd stops within the profession. I’m currently a medical librarian in a hospital.

        I have a lot of thoughts but not time, so I’ll get into this later today/this weekend, or you can drop me a line–atomiclibrarian at yahoo.

    2. NewLibrarian*

      Hi there! I’m a freshly-minted MLIS-holder, though I’ve known I wanted to be a librarian since I was sixteen (I’m now 24).

      1. No, but. Getting a job as a page or in circulation without an MLIS isn’t too bad (especially if you make it clear that you’re working toward a career in libraries and have a background in customer service and are tech savvy — that combination is pretty solid). Depending on your location, though, getting beyond that without an MLIS is going to be tough. Where I am, you’re likely to be hired without an MLIS for page/circulation jobs, but if you want to be a Library Assistant, a Library Associate, or a Librarian (or some variation of a Librarian), then you’ll have to be at least already working toward your MLIS if you don’t already have it. I have seen exceptions in very small town job posts wherein the only requirement to be a director of a branch/system is a high school diploma. Those also pay pretty minimally.

      2. I like the challenge of reader’s advisory best. There are so many fun tools to use like Novelist and Goodreads that make it so easy now, but it’s also fun to get to know the person you’re advising in the moment through what they do and do not enjoy reading. I also love showing people how to use the catalog/internet as a “power user” (ridiculous phrase, but I think that’s what a lot of people would describe it as) — things like how to effectively limit the search, using subject headings vs. keywords, etc. Almost always the person I’m helping acts like it’s some kind of wizardry which is pretty affirming.

      3. Depends — I have a few different jobs in different libraries. In the public library, people often come across as feeling entitled because they “pay taxes.” It doesn’t happen too often, but it does happen. Sexual harassment isn’t terribly uncommon. I have a guy who comes to my library every week, sits at the same table in front of where I am, and stares for almost three hours. It’s not fun or nice. In the special library, I personally don’t get excited about the specific kind of information we provide (so that’s something to consider — what kind of library you want to work in; sounds like public, but you may find museum work really rewarding!).

      4. Not good. There are certainly those out there who get lucky, but in my experience, it’s pretty bad. The Bureau of Labor Stats is reporting an outlook of 2% job growth between 2014 and 2024. If you do decide to take the plunge, volunteer, get a part time job, do SOMETHING to get yourself into a library. I have never heard of a single person being hired into a full time librarian position from never having worked in a library before.

      Good luck!

    3. Bootbrarian*

      An MLS is not necessary UNLESS you want a professional librarian job/management position. That said, there are a lot of part-time employees and hourly-paid library assistants with degrees. But you do not need one to get into the field.

      I recommend volunteering your time at a library. Depending where you are, the work is pretty basic and not involved, but you will get an overall sense of library operations and get to know staff. It also helps build your resume. Competition is fierce for full-time jobs (even library assistant positions), and you may have to start on a part-time basis or juggle two part-time positions.

    4. AnotherAnony*

      It’s tough, but if you can figure out a way that your media background fits in with the position that might be something to think about. If you had to do a lot of research for your job, you might look into prospect research. If you did a lot of social media things, there are a lot of those jobs. The library/librarian field is extremely tough. Not all places require an MLIS, but it does help. You’d probably have to intern/volunteer. Can you volunteer at your public library or a library nearby? Even if it’s for an hour or so a week.

      1. Anon Today*

        Thanks to you all! Really appreciate the feedback. To clarify, I am definitely willing to get an MLIS eventually but I don’t want to do that right off the bat — so was wondering more if there are entry level jobs that one can get without an MLIS.
        As for volunteering, I’d love to do that, just tricky to do around my current work schedule. My local library only needs adult volunteers on weekdays and I can’t do those. I’ll keep looking for opportunities though.

        1. Academic Director*

          My public library actually pays pretty decently for full-time library assistants. The competition is heavy, but it is definitely a plus if you want to get your MLIS.

    5. Rhie*

      Archivist here, but archivists and librarians generally get the same degree with different specializations–the short version is that I would echo Not Today Satan. For a decent job in the field now, you need the master’s, period. Segueing from that into your question 4, job prospects are not awesome, at least for your traditional library school fields of librarianship and archives. Library school/information school are getting pretty popular and I think the field is definitely turning out more graduates than it really needs. You could end up in the position of stringing along grant funded stuff until you can find something full time, which is never fun. You could get something right away! It’s hard to predict and unless you’re really sold on being a librarian, I would think long and hard about it. That being said, if you’re willing consider one of the less immediately obvious fields that are part of the information field more generally–user experience (UX) or human computer interaction, both of which are definitely about helping people, just in a less direct way–you could have a very rewarding experience and also be employed for way more money than being a librarian will ever get you. If you think this might be for you, you want to look for programs advertised as information school or awarding a master’s of information science/studies as these programs will have that broader information technology component. Alternately, you can do pretty well in records management because most people who go to school for archives are all about sexy old records and not all that interested in dealing with unsexy contemporary records. To answer questions 2 and 3, my favorite part of my job is when you find interesting nuggets in the most boring of archival collections; my least favorite part…? Now that I’m a digital archivist I work mostly with born digital and digitized records and I do kind of miss hauling boxes around and processing records I can actually touch.

      1. Loopy*

        +1 to this! I’m a former archivist and while I had some great grant funded jobs for a while I had to be willing to move and accept temp jobs and eventually I ended up leaving the field due to lack of jobs in my area (wasn’t willing to move again).

        I know the field is very competitive and if you’re looking for a professional position/salaried career you definitely need an MLIS.

        I loved my time as an archivist working in libraries immensely and was sad to leave the field but the job market is something that can be very very tough. If you’re flexible about pay requirements and potentially moving it’ll make it a whole lot easier though!!!

      2. GigglyPuff*

        Ugh, that’s totally what I’m trying to decide right now. I’m currently in analog digitization and I love it, it’s exactly what I wanted to do and it’s really rare to find a permanent full-time job. Problem: it’s a government job and I just can’t sustain myself long-term on the pay. It’s super demoralizing and I really don’t want to leave my job because the only things I’m finding are the unsexy records management or digital electronic records positions (which I’m certified for but I’m pretty sure I’ll hate not dealing with physical records).

        My anxiety is starting to kick in because I also live in a growing city and can’t afford what my rent will be bumped up to with my next lease renewal. :/

    6. Weekday Warrior*

      From a library manager’s point of view, it seems like all we do is hire, often for year long temp mat leave coverage (Canada) but also for permanent positions (academic library). I know it doesn’t feel that way to new grads and the market is competitive. People with specialized skills (data management, GIS, preservation, curriculum mapping, project management, assessment, etc) are in demand but in tandem with the traditional librarian skills of understanding and matching user needs with resources and services, including creating those resources/services as necessary. It’s a very dynamic field and the ALA accredited Masters degree allows you to work anywhere in the world.

    7. Matilda*

      I’m a newish librarian (I finished my MLIS just over 3 years ago) and was lucky enough to get a public librarian position pretty quickly; caveat being it started out part time (28 hours a week) and I got extremely lucky that the position was made full time within a couple months of starting (the librarian who previously held my position was here for a couple years at part time). Job prospects do vary by location, our state has two MLIS programs and pretty much one major metropolitan area so it’s a bit saturated and I know fellow graduates who struggled when trying to find full time work and others who chose to move out of state to get it.

      An MLIS is not always necessary to get started in the field, but (at least in my area) for full time positions it’s definitely becoming more necessary and the pay is usually better (not fabulous or anything) for the MLIS required positions.

      I would definitely recommend trying to get some work in a library – it will also help your job prospects once you are done with your MLIS if you decide to go that route. I worked full time while earning my MLIS and got a part time job at my local library for like 12 hours a week (1 evening a week and weekends) – granted I didn’t work quite as many hours as you full time and I had a very understanding boss (only part of my old job that I miss).

      Honestly (and maybe this is eye roll inducing), I really love most aspects of my job. I enjoying purchasing books, creating programs, and learning new technologies; I even enjoy working with the public most of the time. I think my favorite part (at least currently) is teaching technology classes to adult patrons. I like helping them learn something new, whether it’s helping them send pictures of their grandkids or teaching them how to set up a website for a small side business.

      Least favorite part, always having to prove to people why libraries are still vital to a community.

      Good luck!

    8. Pen and Pencil*

      You should really look into becoming a Prospect Researcher (see conversation below you). Many people with librarian skill sets like being a prospect researcher. You don’t need an advanced degree, you will earn more than a librarian (at least in my area 20k+ more than an entry level librarian), and it checks a lot of the same boxes as far as fulfillment. A lot of people in my field go into librarianship and a lot of librarians become prospect researchers.

    9. Seal*

      Academic librarian here. I started working in libraries in HS, which lead to working in libraries in college, which lead to a library staff position, where I stayed for years. What ultimately lead me to get my MLIS was the realization that there are far, FAR more opportunities for even mediocre librarians than there are for the best library staff members (NB: I am definitely NOT a mediocre librarian – far from it!). I got my MLIS 10 years ago and have been very fortunate to have been afforded opportunities to advance my career very quickly, something I NEVER would have been able to do as a staff member.

      My advice for anyone considering an MLIS is to make sure you have a specialty or unique focus that will set you apart from other applicants. Take advantage of as many internships, volunteer opportunities, and special projects as possible. Find ways to attend conferences, particularly national conferences, and make the most of those opportunities to learn and network. Above all else, find your passion within the profession and focus on that. There are jobs out there, particularly if you’re willing to move around, but you have to make sure you demonstrate that you’re not just another face in the crowd.

      As far as what my favorite part of my job is, I’d have to say that I very much enjoy the intellectual stimulation that comes from working in academia. I work in a large research library at a public university and there’s always something interesting going on here. Our collections are endlessly fascinating and helping students, staff and faculty find resources to support their research is very rewarding. My least favorite part of my job is dealing with the bureaucracy that is unfortunately inherent to large academic institutions, but finding ways around that can be rewarding in and of itself.

      1. Anon Today*

        Thank you for the advice! Quick follow up question, does it matter *where* you get your MLIS from? Would getting one from a part time program matter in job searching?

        1. Weekday Warrior*

          Make sure the degree is from a ALA accredited program and you’re good to go. Online/in-person, full/part time don’t matter. Accredited is the important part.

          1. Seal*

            Agreed. You can do it in a year (including summer session) but many people choose to go part-time, particularly if they’re already working. I did the latter, working full-time will going to library school part-time through distance education; that wound up being 2 classes per semester. For those 2 years pretty much all I did was work and go to school, but I loved my classes and getting my MLIS definitely paid off.

          2. MaskedLibrarian*

            And if you have any freedom to move around and leave the country for a couple years, consider a Canadian ALA-accredited program. There are several, and some of them are vastly cheaper than American library programs. That’s what I did, and I had a very good experience, and saved a boatload of money compared to my state’s MLIS program.

    10. Turtlewings*

      I’ve been working as a library assistant (mostly full-time) for about a decade. I don’t have a Master’s; I would need one to go much (if any) further up the ladder, but I am supporting myself in the library field without it. The bad news is that the pay is dismal field-wide, and the major reason I don’t have MLIS is because I don’t make enough to afford school and I’ve had others tell me the degree isn’t worth the debt.

      Favorite part of my job: organizing materials. That’s just how my brain works. It gives me great pleasure to know there’s a place for everything and everything in its place. Everything is consistent and clear and well-organized.

      Least favorite: Dealing with people. I worked in the children’s section at OldJob. NEVER AGAIN. Adults can be plenty awful, too, but they were less likely to poop in the aisles.

      Job prospects: I don’t know about California, but south of the Mason-Dixon line, they’re not great. Libraries everywhere are underfunded, hiring freezes are rampant, and people don’t retire until they absolutely keel over and die.

      Sorry if this all sounds pretty sad… I actually love my job and my field! But I don’t want you to be taken by surprise by the downsides.

      1. Anon Today*

        Ha, it’s okay, I want to know all the downsides (also I work in traditional media now and that’s also doing pretty horribly — I seem to be attracted to dying industries). Thank you for your advice!

    11. An Archivist*

      Archivist in an academic library here, but one who also worked as a librarian in a public library for a couple of years. It took 4 unpaid internships to get the two part-time jobs that led to the one full-time job as a librarian. I strongly suspect it was an advanced degree in another discipline that got me my first full-time archivist position. The market is brutal, but not quite as bad as it was during the recession. I agree with most of the other folks here that you need the MLIS to get a decent-paying job with opportunities. Most of the paraprofessional positions we hire for in my library are filled by MLIS holders hoping for a way to transition to a professional position.

    12. cataloger*

      I’m a librarian! I also completely switched fields (from math/cs/tech support, where I wasn’t happy) to go into librarianship and have never regretted it. I also recognize that I’ve been very lucky.

      1) This depends somewhat on the type of library (school libraries have a special certification, archivists may have different qualifications, etc), the type of work you want to do (do you want to be a librarian? or is library manager or technician interesting? especially while in school?), and on the library itself (different libraries have different requirements). It really helps though. If you do get an MLIS, choose a program that’s ALA-accredited.
      2) It sounds cheesy, but: learning new things, and teaching them, or otherwise making them accessible to other people. Also working with really great people who take our work seriously, but not so seriously we’re always stressed out about it.
      3) Office politics. Same as any job I’ve had, I guess.
      4) Job prospects are weird. I know they’re not great (that thing they told us in library school ten years ago about how “all the old librarians are retiring so there will be plenty of jobs” is still not really happening), but it seems like we’re always hiring (I think we’ve got two or three search committees running now for librarian positions), and my graduate assistants from the past several years have all gotten jobs in libraries. You’ll have better luck if you’re willing to move, and having a second masters helps if you are looking at being an academic librarian (you could more easily do selection for that subject, be a liaison to that department, etc.)

      I’m happy to answer any other questions.

      1. Anon Today*

        Thanks so much for sharing your experience! If you have time, can you tell me more about how you made the switch? Did you volunteer/intern first? Did you go straight into the MLIS? Did you transition while working full time? Thank you!

        1. cataloger*

          I went straight into the MLIS program as soon as I could. I was visiting a friend in another state, and happened to go on a tour of their campus library, which included a tour of acquisitions/tech services, and I was hooked! I enrolled for the program that next semester. I tried to volunteer first in preparation, but the libraries I talked to were not accepting volunteers.

          My work at the time was made up of part time jobs (research assistant in math, also working tech support) so I switched to a different set of part time jobs (graduate assistant in libraries to pay tuition, another job working with an online course, maybe one other one) while taking classes in the evening. Many of my classmates were going into libraries as a second career, and many were still working full time. Specifically, many were working schoolteachers who needed a masters in *something* to get their next promotion, and MLIS seemed like a popular one for that. The program I went to (like many others) has now moved to being entirely online, so I’m sure many people are enrolled while working full-time.

          I think getting some work in libraries while in library school is pretty critical though; there are so many graduates that don’t, and having that experience really sets you ahead. I was a graduate assistant in libraries for two years while in school, which helped me get my first full time job in libraries (two years in a grant-funded library project manager position), which led to my (current) professional librarian position.

    13. Mimmy*

      I”m not in the library field but have explored it in the past. Plus, I have a friend who got an MLIS. I’d say it’s a mixed bag.

      One area I was specifically interested in was academic libraries with a focus on social work or similar, since I already have the MSW. However, the social work librarian at my school discouraged me from considering it. I don’t remember her reasons since it was several years ago, but I think it was because academic library jobs seems to be a small niche, and you’d have to be willing to relocate.

      So figure out what type(s) of libraries you want to work in and carefully research the job prospects. Even then, it seems to be hard to quickly find employment. My friend got an MLIS a few years ago, but never found a professional-level job. She worked for several years as (I think) a library assistant until she had her second child.

      The suggestion from others to volunteer and/or look for part-time work is a good one.

      As a side note: I’ve also considered special libraries, particularly in a nonprofit. A previous employer has a small resource library (not sure of it’s size since I worked there in 2008). I’m curious if an MLIS is required for that?

    14. DragoCucina*

      I’m one of those people who always wanted to be a librarian. When I enlisted in the Army decades and decades ago it was to be a film library specialist (it didn’t work for Army reasons). I’ve been in the profession over 20 years and still love it. I get frustrated with the lack of respect, lack of financial support, etc. But, when we connect with people it’s amazing. The woman who left an abusive marriage that we worked with on her computer skills, resume, and interview skills. She has a good job and is self-sufficient. Sometimes we’re the only place that people encounter that doesn’t start with a “No”.

      Are you interested in using your media skills in a library setting. There are many people who work in marketing in libraries that don’t have a MLIS. There is a library marketing conference next month (https://www.amigos.org/lmcc) and the related Facebook page often has announcements for positions. I went last year and most attendees did not have a library degree.

    15. Damn it Hardison!*

      Records management/information governance professional here! I got my MSLIS after working in libraries/archives during my first graduate school program. I worked part time in libraries for my first two semesters then luckily found a full time job in a library (because of an archives internship). I intended to be an archivist but took a records management class and never looked back. I love analyzing business processes and systems, finding and interpreting record keeping requirements, setting information management policies and implementing record keeping systems. Contemporary records are totally sexy, and seriously challenging! And, the money can be really, really good. Not usually in an academic setting or local government, but in a corporate or even federal government setting you can make a very respectable salary.

    16. Marmalade*

      Another archivist here. I’ve also worked in libraries …

      1. A MLIS is necessary, IMO, and I’m very surprised to see some people say that it’s not.
      2. I’m on the tech-y side of things, I love metadata and open-source projects and following what’s going on in that sphere.
      3. Pay isn’t high for the skillset/level of education required.
      4. Not great. Without an MLIS, I don’t really think you would have a chance of getting a professional position. Even so, it’s pretty tough. It seems like nowadays it’s common to have to do several internships, too, which are usually unpaid.
      Sorry to be a downer, but realistically it’s not an easy path.

      1. Artemesia*

        This is my impression from many friends in this field. Often professional positions are cut so they just have low level employees. It is a bit like journalism — positions for well trained professionals are evaporating. And the cost of training and the time sink doesn’t pay off in compensation. Salaries are terrible when there are jobs.

    17. Library Manager*

      1) Depends. There are non-MLIS jobs, but to do the creative work that you likely want to do, you will need the degree. The non-MLIS jobs won’t necessarily give you a full idea of what MLIS work can be like.
      2) I’m now a fairly senior manager in my organization, so I don’t get nearly as much direct customer contact as I once did. My favorite part of my job is making connections in the community and hiring and working with awesome people. We’ve done A LOT of hiring this year, and I’m super excited to work with the new people who have joined us. They are amazing!
      3) My work-life balance has not been great this year, since we’ve been doing all that hiring because we had a gazillion vacancies. Things are getting better, though.
      4) Really depends on what type of job you’re looking for and where you’re looking for it. Having geographic flexibility and being willing to move is huge.

      Librarianship is my second career–I went back to school for my MLIS at 27. When I decided that I wanted to change careers, the grad school application cycle was just about to close, which put me an extra year out. I used that time to volunteer at my public library one night a week after work. If I had hated it, I would have pulled the plug on the applications. I didn’t hate it. After I got into grad school, I quit my job, moved to another state, did grad school full-time, and held a part-time internship. That was two years of living off loans, scholarships, and savings and of calendering every minute of my day so I knew where I was supposed to be. I had three full-time job offers within a month of graduation, and that was during the recession.

      I think it was a huge advantage for me that I had a career before librarianship. My non-library work experience and professional skills helped me get scholarships to grad school and competitive internships; later, they helped me standout from the crowds of newly minted MLIS grads. It gave me a story to tell about myself as an employee. Skills in communication, marketing, and project management are in huge demand. I do a lot of hiring, both of managers and of professional librarian positions. The MLIS just gets you through the first level of filtering in our hiring software. It’s the meaningful work experience, the interesting cover letters and short answers, the connections between non-library experience and library work that make the strong candidates stand out.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Late to the game but here it goes-
        Career changer- spent my twenties in bookstores, then in Publishing in NYC, decided to become a public librarian and get my MLIS in my early thirties.

        1) is a MLIS necessary to start in the field? Yes, from an accredited school. Otherwise you will be trapped in repetitive clerical work with little opportunity to move or be creative. Try to find some kind of related library work. Academic archives often have short term projects and are willing to train. Even a part time job evenings and weekends staffing a circulation desk will give you the taste of public library service. As a hiring manager, I can tell that the competition is stiff but…do well in school so that you have good references from professors, do project that can show your writing and communication skills. Internships- they often are where we pull new staff from as they come with high recommendations.
        2) What’s your favorite part of your job? For me- helping people, the joy of discovery, being the smartest person (when I find stuff that no one else can) lover readers reference, mentoring new librarians and staff, teaching, reviewing (I love to be the first person who has read a book) collection development. Meeting authors. When I was at the public library- preschool programming, after school clubs. When I was at the school library- classes, curriculum planning, author visits, being the one person who touched the lives of everyone in the school. Working with parents, teachers, and community.

        3) What’s your least favorite part of your job? Fund raising. Budget meetings. Money worries. Special event planning.
        When I was at the public library- the night shift, demanding entitled people who thought I all I did was read all day. Puking kids. Summer reading clubs. When I was at the school library- book challenges- parents who wanted books removed from the shelves
        4) What are job prospects like, realistically? (if relevant, I’m in NorCal)
        It is tough but….have a focus, a specialty. Create a portfolio of work. Get exceptional references. Get some actual library experience.

    1. former prospect researcher*

      I used to, and I still have a lot of connections in the field.

      I read a lot (well, I still do). Usually at least 3 newspapers a day, plus the aggregated Google News alerts for prospect information, plus obituaries. I did a lot of data scraping from class updates and notes and event attendance lists (I worked in higher ed fundraising). Lots of internet searching and learning how to wrangle various search engines for the best results (VPN, no cookies, etc so they don’t try and predict what they think I want to see).

      Public records searching: property/company ownership, political donations, gifts to other orgs, and searching for the various trappings of wealth.

      Generally, I would run queries on the database to identify people who were likely to make major gifts and then research them, or we would outsource that and then I’d verify results. Gift officers also will suggest prospects, and people pop up in news stories and the like (see my first paragraph for the amount of reading I did).

      The downsides: there is no pathway for advancement in development if you start out in prospect research. None. Maybe you can be the director of research and oversee other researchers, but at every non-profit I am aware of, research is usually kind of off to the side and hidden from the frontlines and the glory. It doesn’t tend to pay very well. Your research will often go unused, as gift officers want to trust their guts (“she LOOKS rich!” — uh….she filed for bankruptcy last year! “he says he has no money!” his company did 80M in sales…). Or, you’ll get blamed if your research ID’s a great prospect who wants nothing to do with your org.

      Look up APRA (association of professional researchers for advancement) for lots more information.

      1. CagedBirdSinging*

        Thanks for the info! I’m curious to know more about the lack of advancement potential in development for this type of role. That’s a little bit discouraging since I just had an interview for a research analyst position at the university I work at. When you were a prospect researcher, what other areas were you interested in? What made it difficult about your background to transition? And what are you doing now?

        1. former prospect researcher*

          To advance in the fundraising field, you basically have to ask for money. In a prospect research role, you will have no contact with donors, as you’ll be supporting the fundraising efforts in other ways. Thus, no chance to ask for it. To become a VP of development, almost all candidates start out as major gift officers, annual fund directors, or in sales positions outside of development.

          I do know a few prospect researchers who went into IT or advancement services, because you can often pick up pretty strong computer skills in those positions, particularly if you get into data analysis — which is what I did (I work in data science now and I am making a significant amount more than I did in prospect research — I had a strong IT background before I came into prospect research, but I’d also done various research jobs along the way).

          I did enjoy the work, don’t get me wrong. I like doing research and I did get to see the fruits of my labors — I found some very wealthy unknown prospects, several of whom gave very large gifts that will benefit many students.

          I was at an APRA conference a couple of years ago and heard a presentation given about career pathways for prospect researchers, and what I found interesting was that the average tenure in the field was only about 3 years, because so many leave it after a short time., possibly due to the lack of advancement, but also because a lot of people kind of happen into the field, and use it as a temporary landing point while they try to break into what they were actually after.

          1. CagedBirdSinging*

            Okay that’s interesting because I’m actually really interested in IT (I’m getting my master’s in data science) but my BA is in sociology (hence my affinity for research) so that’s what attracted me to this position. Also, I’m currently working as an admin and not using any of my research or tech skills so I’m open to anything that will get me out the line of work I’m currently stuck in. For a minute there I was like “OMG what did I just get myself into?!” but I feel much less discouraged after your comment. Prospect research (if I actually land the job) would not be a final stop for me by any means, but I do think it would be a great transition role for me until I get more experience and develop my technical skills. Then I’m going to move on.

            Thank you for your comments!

      2. JuniperGreen*

        I second all of the above. It’s a nice way to work in development without being public-facing… but you might have to be very vocal internally and your own advocate if you want recognition and/or resources.

        The interesting thing about prospect research is that it’s a blend of data manipulation and story telling. If you enjoy digging into a database and crafting complex reports and queries it can be really enjoyable. But you’ll also have to craft your data into a story or format that your organization will actually use. A finely detailed biographical brief might be what everyone is asking for… only to get buried on a desk. Collaborating on a table of prospects prioritized by historical giving or personal interest will better suit a busy development officer.

        1. CagedBirdSinging*

          Thanks for your comment!

          In the past I’ve done some fundraising and outreach activities and I actually hated those. I am definitely more suited to behind-the-scenes activities and am satisfied with contributing to the big picture without having to be on the front lines, at least when it comes to asking for money. I find databases and storytelling much more appealing :-)

      3. Mongoose*

        In my experience pathways for advancement depends on your industry and how large of an organization it is; I’ve found that there is a lot of of room for advancement, especially larger universities/national organizations, and not just to a directorship. I know organizational cultures and structures vary, but I’m currently at a large college and prospect research is highly respected and depended on by gift officers. Pay range for an entry level researcher is between $50-$70k, but we’re in a major metropolitan area.

    2. Pen and Pencil*

      I do! I do a lot of date analysis/data mining. Prospect Research varies A LOT by organization, and unfortunately you don’t really know what you are getting into usually. My first organization was a prospect profile mill, where all I did pretty much (despite being the sole researcher) was create 4-7 page reports on individuals. All day, everyday. It was really rather thankless, especially because like someone mentioned before no one would bother to call the people that I said had money and were worth talking too. I have since moved institutions and I love it here. It is significantly more data mining and data management focused. I would agree to some extent about lack of advancement opportunities. You really have to be at a large institution to be able to move up into a Prospect Research Manager position or a role that is managing the back-end (so you would oversee database and prospect research). It is definitely not a job where you will get a new title/”move up” every five years. I plan on going further into data mining/analytics as a round about way to move up. I would say that most prospect researchers that love their jobs tend to be at larger institutions where they can specialize a bit more, but smaller institutions give you a broader overview. Universities (especially large ones) tend to have a really solid research program, but with rampant issues with fundraiser retention rates.

      Everything that JuniperGreen said reflects my experience. I happen to love it, and probably will stay in the field or field adjacent.

    3. BRR*

      I am. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have. The field has three areas: prospect research, analytics, and relationship management.

      Responsibilities will differ depending on the size of organization and the fundraising program. I’m the first researcher at a mid-size nonprofit and I do aspects of all three areas on individuals and foundation. My last job was at a large university with a well established research program and there was a focus on producing full profiles on individuals. Analytics and relationship management were separate teams.

      I spend my time looking at what information I can find to establish an estimated giving capacity. Right now it’s mostly about getting enough people rated. I also do a lot of information management as a whole. I like what I do a lot.

      Touching on advancement, it really depends. I’ve seen some people move up multiple tiers in an organization. No, you likely won’t be able to go from being a researcher to a major gift officer or director of development and there aren’t tons of levels in the field. Employers usually require donor interaction. In my last job hunt I got a lot of interviews for roles like individual giving manager and doing work on mid-level programs.

    4. NP Admin*

      I worked in higher ed prospect research for several years before leaving the job for another position within academia. My background was in library science, as was that of most of my other colleagues.

      The kind of work that you do will obviously depend in part on the culture of your organization, but the things that I generally liked about prospect research was getting to work with data, discover new tools, and serve as a sort of subject matter expert. It’s a good position for someone who is organized, detail oriented, curious, and prefers to work independently (although is capable of developing good relationships with internal clients). The pay was good, in my experience. The downside to the job was that it was really repetitive and pretty isolating. My department was known for being full of introverts. And as others have said, there is also little room for advancement. I worked with people who had been doing the same work for the same organization for 15+ years and the thought of that was really unappealing to me. I often felt like, outside of the times we were understaffed, the work was formulaic and unchallenging. Although being able to come into an office and sit down, put your headphones in, and do easy work from 8-5 is the perfect job for a lot of people, so it just depends on what kind of work you like to do.

  10. straws*

    I’m looking for some advice on starting to freelance as a proofreader & copy editor. I’ve been working in editing for the past 8 years at my company, but I haven’t done it “out on my own” at this point.

    I signed up for Upwork, but I was curious if there are particular types of jobs or things I should look for that are good for someone starting out without a freelance history.

    I also don’t have work samples, since most of my work is proprietary. Is there an easy way to create some sample pieces, and what is the best format?

    1. Lady Dedlock*

      I also work full-time as an editor, but I’ve gotten a fair amount of freelance work just via word of mouth. You might try putting the word out to your network, to see if you can get an in that way.

      I’ve never had to provide work samples; having 8 years of editing work on your resume should be enough to vouch for your skills. If someone offers you a very long project (like a book or a dissertation), you could offer to do one chapter (at your usual hourly rate) and send it to them before they commit to doing the full project with you.

      2. straws*

        I definitely need to work on my network. This is a good opportunity to get my butt in gear. Thank you for the advice!

    2. Becca*

      I actually signed up for Upwork this week too! I’m trying to get experience doing copy editing and proofreading as a start to a career in it while I’m waiting to go back to school.

      Good luck, and I hope you get a ton of awesome leads :D

    3. KimmieSue*

      I’m not in your industry, but have been self-employed for five years. The best advice I can give you is to speak to an accountant in your community about taxes. I have city, state & federal taxes. The usual B&O and unemployment stuff. I had no idea what the tax implications were in my case, and its extreme.

      I also did not do anything to look for a self-funded retirement account (helping to reduce taxes) until my third year.

      While I love being self-employed, I wish I had known more in the beginning.

      1. straws*

        This is SUCH good advice. The taxes were what took me so long to decide to do it. I have some education in tax accounting, so I know enough to be concerned but not enough to know all the details! I decided that starting at the end of the year should give me a smaller time period to work with, and I plan to set aside everything until tax time, so I can make sure to deal with the tax implications. You might say I’m a little bit careful. Self-employment is frequently glorified and the possible downsides are definitely downplayed.

    4. OwnedByTheCat*

      Upwork can be great but there are also a LOT of terrible jobs and it can be hard to land good clients. Don’t undersell yourself!

      1. straws*

        I will make sure to consider this. I do think there could be some value in taking a couple of less-great jobs, to build experience and get a feel for how I work in my free time. I certainly don’t want to undersell myself (and thank you for the extra encouragement!), so I suppose I’m looking at it almost as interning — it may not pay well or be great, but I can leverage the experience. Maybe that’s naive though?

    5. Lore*

      I hire a lot of freelancers for a trade publisher. We never request samples–we want a resume that shows some experience with either long form work or fiction, and ideally some references. And unless your references are people I know, we’re probably going to send you proofreading and copy editing tests. If people at your current job can vouch for your editing skills, that’s a good start. And definitely try to get a few projects through networking. Then put together a resume and start sending it to managing editors.

  11. Temporary Name*

    Hoo boy, I have a weird story this week.

    So this morning I received a request to provide a reference for an applicant for a job. The request came in the form of an email with twenty-seven questions to answer some of which I think would be better answered by the applicant in an interview (“How would the applicant follow company rules or directions, even if they don’t agree with them?” or “Give me an example of a time when the applicant was honest”). It also had some language about “if you don’t complete this, you may jeopardize the applicant’s chances at employment.”

    The kicker? The applicant in this situation is my ex-SO. I have not spoken to said ex-SO in SEVEN YEARS. SEVEN. YEARS. They were in a whole different stage of life when last I knew them, and I don’t feel qualified to answer basically any of these questions about them because I really can’t say I know them that this point.

    So that’s been my day. How are y’all?

    2. straws*

      Holy wow! Did you even work with ex-SO? I can’t imagine trying to list anyone from 7 years ago as a reference, let alone an ex!

      1. Temporary Name*

        I never worked with them. Ex-SO asked me over the weekend if they could have my current contact info, but they said it was for a background check (the position is a somewhat sensitive one), so I assumed I’d be answering questions like “Did this person really go to the high school they say they did?” I can happily do that, but I can’t tell you anything about who this person is now!

        I think my favorite question is “How was the last disagreement you had with the applicant resolved?” Well, I told them that they were an asshole for trying to make me the bad guy in the breakup, then I left for college and pretended they didn’t exist except for some occasional Facebook stalking and tearful memories. Definitely hire them!

        2. neverjaunty*

          I am the kind of person who might fill out that entire survey just to give the employer that information.

          1. Temporary Name*

            I don’t dislike ex-SO quite that much, but it was certainly tempting.

            (“Name something you would change about this person.” I would go back in time to give them the lesson on female anatomy and the virtues of foreplay that I was too insecure to give at the time. Oh, is that not the answer you were looking for?)

            2. Jadelyn*

              I am struggling to suppress literal shrieks of laughter here. So glad my office-mate has gone home for the day!!!

    3. Hellanon*

      “Dear Hiring Manager, while I can speak with some authority on ex-SO’s prowess in the sack, I am not nearly as familiar with his/her ability to function behind a desk, and thus will have to decline this opportunity. Regards, Temp.”

    4. BackintheSunshine*

      If you’re inclined to answer some of questions, go ahead and answer the ones you want or can. Ignore the others.
      You can also respond to the email and say you’ve never worked with the ex-SO and aren’t able to answer the questions.

      1. Temporary Name*

        I think I’m going to take the second route. It’s tricky, because I don’t want to be the thing that prevents ex-SO from getting this job… but I can’t say with confidence that they would be good at it, because I just don’t know enough about them now. I can’t say with confidence that they would be bad at it, either! I can’t say anything definitive.

        1. neverjaunty*

          “Poor judgment in selecting references” is what would prevent ex-SO from getting that job.

        2. Chriama*

          I think it’s really disrespectful of your time to send you such a long questionnaire and then imply that it’s your fault if they don’t get the job because you’re not willing to spend 2 hours filling it out. I’d be more inclined to email them back with some politely worded statement saying that you haven’t worked with them and don’t have time to fill out such an extensive survey but you’d be ok with a half hour phone call (I think the time limit is important because these guys don’t sound like they understand boundaries). Filling it out partially is tolerating this behaviour, and it’s harmful to the company and its job candidates. If it’s a clueless hiring manager then they should change, if it’s crappy HR then they should know people aren’t going to put up with this.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I wouldn’t even do a phone call. If you never worked with them, then how can you be a job reference? Even just asking an ex-SO for this is ridiculous, especially if you didn’t work with them.

            I’m guessing Ex didn’t see that disclaimer on the form. Anyone who did see and understand it probably wouldn’t ask someone they didn’t work with to fill it out.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      Ugh. Laying aside your ex’s stupidity in using you as a reference…why does this employer not realize that providing a reference is a courtesy, and therefore the company should make it as easy on the reference as possible?

      In my line of work nearly everyone calls for references. There is one agency that likes to send out a questionnaire, but a) it has 10 questions, not 27 and b) the questionnaire says at the bottom that they’re happy to call if you’d prefer the phone.

      I don’t know whether I’d even bother responding to this request.

    6. James*

      This a job that requires security clearance or something? I know those background checks can be very thorough. Otherwise, this seems completely insane–even ignoring the ex-SO part, there’s no way I’m going to spend the time drafting 27 essays better suited for a poorly-thought-out exam in high school just so someone I know can get a job as a plumber or something!

      Can you respond with “I’m sorry, but as we were romantically involved at one time but have not spoken in nearly a decade, I do not feel comfortable providing such information”? The most in-depth background check I’ve had done only went back five years, after all; anything that ended 7 years ago isn’t really relevant, and people can change to the point where your information may not be relevant. If they keep pushing, you know you’re dealing with either someone doing something shady, or someone who has no clue what they’re doing!

      1. Temporary Name*

        Yeah, it requires a pretty extensive background check, and for good reasons… but I really have nothing to say that can be helpful. I sent a response similar to your suggestion, since that’s really the only reasonable thing I can think of to do.

    7. Moonsaults*

      This makes me wonder if this ex is applying for some kind of place that requires you to list so many references, you really do need to scrape the bottom of the bucket including exes from high school O.o

      That sounds like when I had fill out a reference check for a friend who was applying to work in law enforcement only thankfully it was more like “Have you know this person to be aggressive?” “How does this person react to stressful situations?” or asking for many examples.

      I’d answer it honestly with a letter stating that you knew them X amount of years ago and at that time you were both kids, so you aren’t in a place to give any information about who they are today. If that means Ex can’t have the job, that’s beyond your control and they are not a fit for that position anyways.

      1. Manders*

        Yeah, this does sound a bit like the character reference I gave for my friend who was applying to be a police officer, with lots of questions about things like conflict resolution and whether I’d ever caught her in a lie. But even then, they gave me a call instead of emailing a questionnaire, and no one was interested in what a high school ex had to say about her.

        It’s weird all around! I’ve had friends who’ve gone through very serious background checks, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard of someone investigating an ex from that long ago.

        1. Temporary Name*

          You’ve correctly guessed the industry – the position is related to law enforcement. And while it makes perfect sense to me to do extensive background and reference checks on people applying for positions in that industry… I still don’t have any useful information for them after seven years of no contact!

          1. Manders*

            In that case, I think you can probably leave most of the questions unanswered and just explain the situation up top. I think what they’re digging for here is any history of abusive behavior, anger problems, or physical violence–I got asked a lot of questions about that when I was my friend’s reference.

            It’s still weird to email rather than call, though. I think this reference checker may just be lazily blasting out a form survey instead of taking the time to do a thorough check. This really is the kind of situation where the reference checker needs to be asking followup questions and listening for any hesitation or ambivalence while someone’s answering a question.

    8. Snargulfuss*

      Maybe it’s a company requesting 10 references – 3 former supervisors, 2 former co-workers, 1 elementary teacher, 2 ex-SOs, and 2 former roommates…or whatever the stipulations were for the LW that wrote in a little while ago about a really intense reference check process.

    9. Jaydee*

      I would just respond back with something like “When I agreed that Fergus could provide my contact information for a background check, I thought it would involve more verifying of background information rather than specific, employment related questions. Fergus and I were friends in high school but drifted apart when we went to college. Although we keep in touch occasionally now, I have never worked with him and therefore am really not in a position to answer most of these questions. I’m sorry for this misunderstanding and hope my inability to answer your questions won’t have a negative impact on Fergus’s chances at employment with your company.”

      I don’t think you have to get into the details of the nature of your relationship with him or anything like that. And if you’re feeling charitable to him, you might want to give him a heads-up that the questions they asked were all very detailed and employment-related so he should probably be providing former supervisors and coworkers who can talk about those things as references to this employer.

    10. TG*

      I got a similar reference request once. It felt like I was taking an exam. I liked the person I was giving a reference for and knew a lot about her working habits and potentials so I was happy to do it, but geez.

    11. Artemesia*

      Yikes. Given that you really can’t give a sensible rec for this person it may be time to say ‘SO is a great person and I think a strong candidate for your organization but I find it outrageous and unreasonable that you would expect a reference to devote this much time to answering 27 questions in such detail. ‘ I often had to answer 5 or 6 questions for students — 27 is absurd. No one but their mother is going to do that.

  12. Dawn*

    So when I first started my current job I was all “I go to work to get work done, not to make friends!” but today I’m getting Lasik this afternoon and am in my office, all alone, really missing the camaraderie of my old office where I could have gone over to the graphic design section of my division and said “I’m nervous about getting Lasik” and been bombarded with hugs and candy and people making their stuffed animals talk in silly voices and I would have had a ton of people giving me hugs on the way out the door to my appointment.

    Normally I’m fine being a hermit in my office but today I’m missing the warm fuzzies that my old group had. However, most of the time I’m really thankful for the professional distance that everyone at this office keeps because it makes it a ton easier to go home at the end of the day and not think about work!

    What do y’all say: workplace camaraderie where people are friends in and outside of work or an office where everyone gets along just fine but maintains a professional distance?

    1. Frankie Seeks Job*

      I’d say workplace camaraderie where people are friends in work… but don’t really ask each other out for fun after hours. Like I will talk about the latest Marvel movie during our spare time, but no, I don’t want to meet you out on Saturday to actually watch the movie.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        That’s pretty much where I am. I do see some of my coworkers outside of work very occasionally (maybe once a year), but we talk about all kinds of non-work stuff together, both at work and on social media, so I feel like they’re friends, but not nearly as close as my friends from high school or college.

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        Definitely this. I enjoyed the one happy hour my work team had, but it was only a few of us. We all get along exceptionally well at work, so I’m not surprised that HH was a good time. Beyond that… I don’t want to be BFFs outside of work.

      3. Ruffingit*

        This. My co-workers and I are super close, some of us worked at a previous job together so there’s that. We exchange funny texts, we vent, we help each other, there’s lots of hugs and genuine expressions of sympathy for difficulties in and out of work. But we don’t hang out outside of work because we all have lives to attend to there.

    2. Murphy*

      I definitely enjoy some camaraderie. My current job is better than my last one in every way except that. (We were friendly at work, but most of us were not friends outside of work, though some were.) I have a very alone-at-my-desk-all-day kind of position now, and I miss being able to chat about normal life things with people.

    3. all aboard the anon train*

      I like a middle ground between the two. I like having friends to eat lunch with/go on coffee walks or just chat about our weekends or get drinks with after work, but I generally don’t like to hang out with people from work on the weekends. I like the type of work relationships where I can be like, “oh yeah, I agree dating sucks!” but I don’t need to go into detail about my personal relationships. I tend to be more solitary, but I found that having lunch with some people I’m friendly with once a week is great because I can maintain that friendly camaraderie without being their best friend and sharing personal details.

      That said, I met one of my best friends and probably my platonic soulmate through work years ago, but that’s a rare case for me of making friends at work who are also my out of work friends.

    4. Lillian Styx*

      My work buddy left earlier this year so now when I have something funny or dumb that I’m pumped about there is no one to go share it with. We could get each other laughing until we were both crying. No one else even comes close! I miss him so much. :( I still like my job but nowhere near as much as when he was around. It really sucks!

      Good luck with your Lasik! (internet hugs)

    5. JMegan*

      I prefer friendly with a professional distance, but I think it’s a really personal thing, with a whole range of options. And even the most “professionally distant” of us feel lonely at work sometimes, I think.

      So, here are some virtual hugs and candy from an internet stranger. Good luck this afternoon!

    6. Jennifer*

      I preferred camaraderie–my old job used to be one where we’d go out drinking across the street afterwards. Here, most people have families and live out of town and are out the door at 5, and due to public service shifts we can’t even do lunches. Kinda dull.

    7. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Good luck with your Lasik! I got it done two years ago and was nervous too — but the procedure itself is over before you know it (seriously, like 3 minutes per eye), and my surgeon gave me a Valium beforehand to calm my nerves. You’ll do great, and you’ll be so glad you did it!

      1. JuniperGreen*

        Also came to wish you luck on the Lasik and say I’d totally be on the candy and nerve-calming train! My coworkers at Old Job were super social and I miss that close camaraderie.

        (Btw come back to tell us how the Lasik goes! I’m considering it, as my dry eyes prevent me from wearing contacts any more. But, I’m nervous that the dry eyes will make my Lasik recovery awful!)

        1. Dawn*

          I am actually getting Lasik finally because my eyes can no longer deal with contacts (even the daily disposables!) When they did the dry eye test at my screening, however, they said that my eyes weren’t even that terribly dry and I was still a great candidate for Lasik. If your eyes are too dry for Lasik then you can look into PRK, which has a longer recovery time but is great for people who have dry eyes. From all of the beforehand research I did while gathering info about Lasik, there’s pretty much an option out there for just about everyone as long as you have healthy eyes/are healthy in general.

          I’m really curious how my Lasik recovery will be considering my job is staring at a computer all day, but I figure millions of people have gotten it before me and are doing just fine!

          1. JuniperGreen*

            Good to know… thanks Dawn! My eyes hate contacts now, which is so crazy after wearing them (safely and cleanly!) for years.

            Definitely will ask my doc about PRK vs Lasik now!

          2. Not a Real Giraffe*

            (I know this is derailing the thread a bit but…) It took me almost a full year and a half to recover on the dry-eye front, and I still have some days that are a little irritating. Good luck!

          3. Hillary*

            You’ll love it. I got Lasik five years ago, and it’s still one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. Just follow the instructions for all the eyedrops. ;-)

            I spend all day at the computer, it was fine from a recovery perspective. I had mine on Friday afternoon, I could drive Saturday afternoon, and I was back at work fine on Monday.

    8. James*

      Depends on the individual. You’re likely to make friends at the office, because you spend so much time there and share interests with people (due to the similar jobs, at least in my experience). Other people you want to keep at arm’s length, and the only reason you associate with them is because you’re at work. It’ll all depend on your personal interactions with the folks around you.

    9. Red*

      I think my department does it right – we’re all BFFs when we are at work and it makes the day fly by, but then we all just go home, separately. I’ve only spent non-work time with these people twice, and once was at a party for a co-worker who was moving away after 8 years in the department. Of course, it probably helps that we’re scattered all over the county and surrounding areas, which makes spending non-work time together difficult.

    10. Not my normal alias*

      I used to have a lot of camaraderie in my office, but then we had some shake ups where people retired and/or were physically moved to a different building and another division was moved into my building and I don’t really click with any of them and I’ll go multiple days without having a conversation. And it’s fine, I’m an introvert, it works, but sometimes I really miss the old days. I missing having someone to share good news with. I miss having a group to sit with at functions. I guess one good thing is that my manager seems to feel the same way, because I’m one of the few people left that he really talks to, so we’re getting closer. But it makes me sad sometimes.

      1. SJ*

        Okay, I was reading this quickly and first thought you said “I don’t really dick with any of them” and I was like “??????” but then I read it again.

    11. INFJ*

      The verdict is still out with me. LastJob of 8 years was the warm fuzzy place, but it was also HR nightmare place. I’m preferring the “professional distance” of my current position, but do miss the old way sometimes…

    12. Jen RO*

      For me, definitely no. 1. It’s one of the things I like best about my job. I don’t actually see my coworkers a lot outside of work, but I like knowing that we would have fun if we did see each other.

    13. AshK434*

      I’m all for workplace camaraderie! Having work friends made the worst aspects about my previous job (bad management) bearable! I really actually liked my last job because I had an excellent group of coworkers who made the day go by quickly because we always had fun. I mean, we weren’t best buddies and we still had boundaries, but it was just nice to have that relationship with them. I actually started a new job a few months ago and I’m SO lonely here. The people keep that professional distance which is fine but when I first started, it came across as cold and unwelcoming. I actually really dislike this job (which actually has great management), because I just feel so alone here.

    14. New Bee*

      I was all for camaraderie at my old job (and am still close friends with a select crew), but in my current role I appreciate the professional distance (and sometimes feel like an outlier in that regard). I think the difference is that OldJob involved being with kids all day, so we adults sought out common spaces to de-stress, namely happy hours. CurrentJob has a very workaholic/competitive culture, so opportunities to socialize are really just covers for doing more work.

      Interestingly, at both jobs most people were single and childfree, but it’s only in CurrentJob where I feel judged for being the opposite (because, I think, anything that could be an obstacle for working all the time/self-martyrdom is looked down upon).

  13. contract or salaried?*

    I know people have asked similar questions before, but for the life of me I can’t find any of those threads now that I need them!

    I’ve been interviewing with a recruiting firm for a company that’s offering me a W2 contract (fed/state/etc. taxes, health/dental/vision, and 401K through the recruiting firm). The hourly rate we agreed on was $55, which for 40 hours a week is about $105K a year. This is for a large healthcare company in an digital PM role. I currently make $60K in a non-IT digital PM salaried position where I’m pretty much paid to do nothing most of the year (we have a four month busy period and the other 8 months are dead). I’m happy in my current position for the most part, but more money would be nice.

    I live in Boston, a very high COL area. I have about 3 months worth of rent/expenses saved up in case I ever lose my job, but most of each month’s paycheck goes to rent/loans/credit cards/bills/etc. If I did my calculations correctly, after taxes and healthcare (through the firm for PPO/best dental and vision it’d be about $525 per month), I’d be bringing home about $5K a month. That’s a $2K monthly increase for me.

    I have no one else to rely on for healthcare or finances. It’s just me and after some awful financial situations in the past and growing up without a lot of money and with some health problems, I tend to panic about money and health insurance or having a contract be cut after a month or two. I know salaried jobs aren’t “stable”, but mentally it feels more stable than a W2 contract. I’m also nervous about taking a contract job because of no paid vacation or sick-time. I know if I have no paid time off, I won’t take time off.

    To anyone out there who is single or not on someone else’s health insurance, have you done W2 contract work and do you think it’s worth it over a salaried position? Do you think I’m worrying too much about the health insurance/stability aspect? Or the paid time off aspect? I told the recruiter upfront these were all of my worries and she said I should interview anyway to see if I liked the company and team (I do), so while I’m waiting for an offer (or rejection), I’d love to hear anyone else’s fears/surprises/experiences about W2 contract work over salaried positions.

    1. michelenyc*

      I live in NYC so I completely understand the high COL. While I enjoyed my contract work immensely and the company/people I worked with; I found that after 2 years that I missed the stability of a salaried position more than I thought I would. I also had great benefits and did have sick time that I never really got to use because well I really don’t ever get sick. To me your benefits sound really expensive I only paid about $300 per month. Not having PTO really sucked especially when the company closed between Christmas and New Year’s I didn’t get paid for that time or any other holidays when the company was closed. The other thing to also consider is that sometimes you will not be working 40 hours a week. It happens more often then you would think. There was one week where I didn’t work for 3 days because a crane collapsed outside the office and there was no heat or water again not paid. A lot of company’s do not allow contractors to work from home so that is the other thing to keep in mind.

      1. contract or salaried?*

        Yeah, these were all part of my concerns. I like the company and people, but it’s everything else that makes me wary because I like my salaried stability.

        I think the healthcare seems more expensive because I did it for all the best options the recruiting firm offered. If I choose the middle of the road or low options, it’d be around $300-$400, but I’m panicky about health so I always pay for the best plan options.

        My biggest issue is that I have a great vacation and sick-time and WFH policy now, but the money could be better. I rarely get sick and my current company lets me use sick-time as vacation days since it’s use them or lose them, so I’m at about 5 weeks of paid time off overall. I mean, that extra $2K would help a lot, but I don’t know if it’s worth it for no paid time off or, as you mention, the possibility of not being able to work for some unforeseen event and not getting paid.

        1. michelenyc*

          As far as the health care part really make sure the most expensive option really is the best option for you sometimes they aren’t and you end up paying for something you don’t need or really use. Great pay is a bonus. Just so you know all companies tell you that you can bill for overtime but I can almost 100% guarantee that they will make sure that it never happens. The other thing to keep in mind is they could potentially lose the budget for your position and let you go with zero notice. It happened to me a couple of times. My director and myself were pissed because it was HR that made the call not my director. The one time I didn’t care I hated the company and the 2nd time stung a bit because I had been told that at a minimum the position would be a minimum of a year. On the upside this last one resulted me finding a great permanent salaried position where I got a 25% salary increase! Even if the last company had brought me on permanently I never would have made the kind of money with them that I am making now.

    2. Slippy*

      Some important things to think about:
      1. When you say the taxes through the recruiting firm do they pay them or just take them out for you? If they just take them out you are going to pay a lot more in taxes.
      2. You may get paid time off but likely not. You don’t bill you don’t get paid.
      3. Healthcare is likely going to be more expensive than a salaried employee or otherwise worse (smaller more transient risk pool).
      4. Is the project just starting and if not how far in are they? If they are past halfway and they don’t have something for you to roll onto after the current project is done forget it, they are just trying to plug a sucker into a hole they made.
      5. Are you going to consistently go over 40 hours/week and if so do you get paid for it? Some contracts the client only allows you to bill for up to 40 hours so if you need to go over you are either working for free or not meeting your objective, choose your poison.

      Honestly 105K sounds pretty low for PM contract work in Boston but I’ve never worked there YMMV.

      1. contract or salaried?*

        Honestly, I’ve never even considered PM contract work or known anyone who has done it, so I’m not entirely sure what the average is. $105K is a lot of money for me, so maybe that’s why I thought it was okay?

        They said taxes would be like a normal job, just through the recruiting firm. So I would have taxes taken out of my pay and they would pay their share, and I wouldn’t have to do an independent contractor tax form come tax season.

        The project i just starting out and the company manager said it’s long-term with potential for full-time employment. They want someone to come in and see this project through from the beginning to the end and it’s estimated about 2-3 years at the moment.

        I did ask about the 40 hours and was told that they expected 40 hours a week and that I would be able to bill for overtime if it was necessary, so I’m not as worried about that.

        1. Product person*

          W2 means you’re an employee of the company that is hiring you (looks like it’s the recruiting firm).

          So you’ll have a regular job with the firm (as opposed to an independent contract agreement), so the firm will be responsible for paying employer taxes and retaining the employee’s portion of it. Calling it “contract work” is misleading in your situation.

          You’re right to be concerned about job security, because your full time job is dependent on the project in the client you’ll be working for not being canceled, and the client not having any issue with your firm that could cause the contract to be canceled either.

          I worked for many years in the same situation as yours (as a senior business analyst as opposed to project manager), but I had my husband covering my health care, so I did have a safety net. Typically the firm hiring me would find another project quickly when the one I was working on was completed or canceled, but the risk is there. I’d ask them about healthcare coverage: how long would you get go keep it if something happened (beyond your control) that caused the client contract to be terminated? Hopefully you can negotiate something that will give you more security in case something happens and the contract is canceled in a couple of months.

        2. Slippy*

          The taxes response sounds a little hokey to me and perhaps a more legal minded person could throw in some advice. If you are W2 your taxes will be quite a bit higher than a normal salaried employee. You may want to get clarification if you are going to be an employee of the recruiting firm or a W2 to them. I believe that if you are a W2 to the recruiting firm then you pay both employee and employer taxes but standard “I’m not a lawyer,” disclaimer applies.

          Does this sound a bit weird to anyone else?

          1. michelenyc*

            Not at all. Most of the companies I have contracted for use an outside firm that manages all of their contractors it is very common especially in the fashion/sportswear industry and quite a few other industries. Technically you are an employee of the contracting/recruiting company and your paycheck stub will reflect that company name not where you actually go to work everyday. You pay taxes and the contracting/recruiting company pays taxes. There are many companies that is all they do is manage the contractors for larger companies. What does sound weird to me is referring to it as W2 employment I have never heard it referred to in that way.

          2. Natalie*

            I think you are confusing W2 and 1099. A “w2 employee” is a regular employee of a company who has payroll taxes deducted from their paycheck and matched by the employer. A “1099 employee” is an independent contractor, who is responsible for all of their own taxes including FICA.

            What contract or salaried? is describing is totally legal and very common. It’s basically long term temping, but they are calling it a “contract” likely because it is for a defined project.

          3. Hillary*

            W2 means the firm running payroll pays the employer portion, 1099 means the employee pays both pieces (my partner is a W2 contractor, his firm offers their employees a choice). W2 is easier for the employee, but 1099 is better for some tax scenarios or if you’re on multiple contracts at once. In my head a W2 contractor is basically a temp that they call a consultant/contractor because they’re expensive.

            OP, if you’re in an in-demand field and you’re comfortable with the risk, I’d say go for it. My partner compensates for the risk by saving like crazy, basically he would put that extra $2k in savings every month to build up a cushion. The questions I’d ask of the recruiting company are: 1) what does their nonsolicit agreement look like? 2) how long does the client expect the contract to last, and how accurate are their usual estimates? 3) what do the prospects look like for the contract after that?

            1. Slippy*

              Ah right, I have been getting W2 and 1099 backwards.
              *Sigh* been dealing with vendors all day >_<

              1. Hillary*

                No worries. The only way I can keep it straight is reminding myself that I get paid on a W2 as a regular salaried employee. I have the stable job in my relationship, he does high paid but high risk. If we ever get married taxes are going to be fun.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m also nervous about taking a contract job because of no paid vacation or sick-time. I know if I have no paid time off, I won’t take time off.

      Specifically addressing this, would you be OK with taking $100K for the same position, same benefits, but with 4 weeks pooled PTO (vacation/sick)? If so, why not just consider yourself getting that, and allow yourself up to 20 days off as work allows? And unlike many of us, if you don’t use them, you will get them “paid out” by getting extra hours instead!

      1. Gaia*

        Specifically around this, you may want to look into Massachusetts mandatory sick time laws. If you are an employee, I think they need to provide sick time, at least.

    4. Sophie Winston*

      I’m confused too. A W-2 is what you get when you’re an employee, a 1099 is what you get when you are a self employed contractor.

      Working for the agency means you have the same risk of job loss as working as a 1099 contractor – it’s easier for the ultimate client to fire you than to fire a regular employee, generally speaking. The tax impact will be the same as if you were a regular employee. The benefits impact depends on how good the agency benefits are to what you get now, same as any time you change to a new employer.

      1. contract or salaried?*

        AS other people better explained above, it’d be W2 with me as an employee of the recruiting firm, but the work I’d be doing is for the company. The recruiting firm is that go-between who manages my paycheck and benefits if I choose to take them.

    5. Danae*

      I’ve done this kind of W2 contract work for most of my career. You are indeed correct that the contract will be less stable (and if the job ends, it’s likely to go away without much if any warning), but the dealbreaker is likely to be the health insurance–you should investigate what your cost for buying your own health insurance would be, because it may be cheaper and better than some of the genuinely terrible insurance options I’ve been offered through contracting agencies. (The job before this one, the only offered health insurance that covered even the basics was $600 a month for just me–with a $3000 deductible.)

      When I don’t have paid vacation, I only take time off when I’m deathly ill or when I’ve been guilted into traveling by family members. There’s a real disincentive to ever take time off if it means a smaller paycheck, and if you’re thinking the whole time you’re away “I’m not working, so I’m not getting paid.”

      Also keep in mind that expensive contractors are generally the first to go when a company tightens its belt, and no matter how many promises your agency makes about finding you something new if your current contract ends, I’ve never seen any agency actually -do- that.

      I mean, it can be nice–contractors are generally outside of office politics, you’re expected to come very quickly up to speed, you’re unlikely to be subjected to performance reviews (if they think you’re not doing a good job, they just cut you loose) and the money can be good. I was quite happy working contracts for a number of years.

      1. Meg Murry*

        +1 to pricing out your own health insurance. Ask if the contracting company pays for any of the premium, or if you are paying 100%. If they aren’t paying at least 50% of the premium, you would be eligible to buy insurance through the marketplace, where the open enrollment period starts next month. In fact, I’d suggest that even if it’s a little bit more expensive but still comparable, because that way if this contract doesn’t work out you can still keep your health insurance (reducing one of your anxieties).

        My concern would be that since it’s hourly and contract, you really can’t count on it being an annual salary of $105k – there may be times when you don’t have 40 hours of billable work to do. Or like others have mentioned, if you can’t work on the days the office is closed, you wouldn’t be paid for those days (for instance, do they close at Christmastime? Do you get any paid holidays?) Do you know anyone that’s currently contracting through this company? Could you talk to them about it before accepting?

        If your job is really so dead for 8 months a year, could you get a part time job during the dead periods as a way to make more money but keep the stability of your current position?

        I hear you in that I’m the same way about bird in the hand – in the past I haven’t moved on from crummy situations when the only option I had was to go to a temp job that didn’t offer benefits – I wasn’t willing to take the leap from bad but stable to possibly good but far more uncertain.

        If you do take the job, I’d suggest continuing to live as if you were still making the same $60k, and saving the rest in your emergency fund so you could build it up to more like a 6 month fund. Or perhaps split the extra between savings and debt repayment. If you can afford to do that, I think taking this position doesn’t seem so risky, and would allow you more of a buffer between when this contract ends and the time when you can find another position.

        And as far as the “no PTO” goes, you could also do some math and money juggling to get around the psychological aspect of that as well. For instance, you could open up a savings account just for offsetting PTO. You could deposit $X every week/paycheck into that “virtual PTO” account, and then once you’ve saved enough, you can take a vacation day (or week) and use that money to “pay yourself” for those PTO days.

  14. Sally Stitches*

    How do I get people (professors ) to actually read my emails. I make them informative and succinct, and I even bold important information like dates, but I often get people a) asking me questions that were in the email, b) ignoring instructions and often doing the exact opposite, a) calling me by the wrong name (my name is not uncommon). (That last is admittedly just a pet peeve.)

    2. Frankie Seeks Job*

      LOL oh I know that feeling. You spend an hour drafting and editing the paragraph long e-mail, stating your point, bolding your query to avoid confusion, sending it… and getting a one word OKAY in response.

      I’d say maybe the next time you meet them, you can ask, Have you seen my letter, Professor Teapot?

    3. Hellanon*

      You can’t. We’ve pretty much given up on finding a way to get information to faculty or getting them to respond when needed. So far email, posted notices, paper mailbox notices, portal postings and a weekly email newsletter are only vaguely helpful, and they still complain about not getting the info they need.

    4. TL -*

      The only way I’ve found to get professors to respond is to put the amount of their money you want to spend in the email.

      :) professors are notoriously bad at email. Send the email and follow up in person. If they ask for info you’ve emailed them, give them the email but politely remind them that you sent that information in an email.

      1. Sally Stitches*

        I can’t follow up in person, unfortunately. I never see these people and many of them are on a different campus.

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Crud, my advice was going to be to follow up in person too…can you call? I have a lot of people where I will send an email and then have to see them or call after a certain amount of time to remind them of my deadline for the request.

    5. Sally Stitches*

      For reference, I need some information from people, and they were expecting to have to provide it. I sent out an email requesting it and said please deliver it in this way. Of the 4 responses I’ve received so far, only one of them has done it correctly, and one person went far out of their way to do it incorrectly.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Can you make it a Google Form or similar?

        Is there any incentive (or negative consequence) for them to do it? For instance, does doing it wrong (or not doing it at all) jeopardize their ability to get grant money, get a reimbursement, etc?

        Unfortunately, if you don’t have any carrots or sticks, you’ll probably get ignored or wrong information. Can you talk to your boss about what kind of incentive or privilege withdrawal you can offer?

        Is this the kind of task they are going to turn over to the departmental admin? If so, could you email the admins about it as well so they can assist in nagging the professors about it, so they aren’t stuck doing it at the last minute?

    7. NW Mossy*

      I see this sort of thing from a group in my org that spends most of their time in the field. Part of coping is recognizing that the professors you work with were not hired for their gifts with administrative tasks, and when you consider the role in full, it makes sense that they wouldn’t be because the majority of being a good professor is about other tasks. Instead, they’re hired for things like research, teaching, and grants; those that are good at those things are often not the same folks that are good at working through an administrative process, even if the process is laid out very clearly.

      If it’s possible, one solution might be to funnel some of what you need to deliver/receive to administrative folks who are closer to the professors than you are, to the extent that such people exist. You can even ask professors, “Hey, I know that dealing with [XYZ] is a hassle for you. Is there someone else you’d like me to work with on this?” Sometimes, half the battle is making it clear that it’s OK for them to use an intermediary if it means that you get what you need faster.

    8. KL*

      If you find out, will you let me know?

      Unfortunately, I don’t think there is. There are some professors that are great at responding to emails (and calling you the right name – why did my parents give me a name that has so many different spellings and derivations?) and there are some that just don’t. Sorry I can’t help, but I can commiserate.

    9. my two cents*

      I’m sure it’s different in academia, but maybe some of this will be helpful…
      I often have to provide engineering support via email. When it’s a mixed response of ‘process’ and also just technical answers, I do my best to bold/underline headings like I would in a user’s guide. It makes it much harder to ignore. Also, try putting any action items at the top of your emails. Alternatively, if there’s little text in the email I will keep the email short, and then include any images after my signature – the idea being that they don’t have to scroll to read the message, but will definitely be compelled to scroll to see all of the pictures.

      John-

      We’re in the process of changing systems, and we need everyone to re-enter their whatevers into the blahdiblah system.

      U/B To Make A New Thing
      1.
      2.

      And below is a chart detailing the impact this change will make.

      -Default signature
      (big colorful scroll-compelling chart)

      Alternatively, sometimes I keep the email as short as possible, and then just include any images at the bottom.

      John-

      Here are some screenshots of the whatsits. Also, be sure to double check the supply requirements alongside the acceptable range of blah.
      -Default sig
      (PICS)

    10. Master Bean Counter*

      I don’t know. But if you figure that out I’d love to know. My name, which is spelled out in my signature, is apparently too difficult for people to spell right when replying.

      1. martinij*

        Or, people will choose to give you a nickname if they deem your name too long! My name is not Jen…

    11. Dr. Doll*

      First making sure that your boss has your back, AND that your emails are crystal clear, no chance for misunderstanding, AND that you give plenty of lead time, AND that you give reasonable reminders:

      Don’t solve the problems that their lack of reading causes. If they miss important dates that cause them to miss opportunities such as grant proposals or awards, it’s on them. If they miss things that cause their *students* to suffer? I know it’s painful, but that is on them too. When they ask questions that were in the email, forward the original email with the information highlighted, with a cheery, “Here you go, see below!” (because you can’t be rude, sadly). When they do the exact opposite that was instructed, depending upon what it is and if it makes your job easier or harder, send the work back and ask for it to be corrected.

      Calling you by the wrong name…sorry. It’s rude AF but not worth a moment of your time.

    12. fposte*

      Staffing in academia is a lot of herding of the cats. I find it most useful to embrace it rather than resent it–corralling is one of the things I’m getting paid to do, and, as somebody once said here, the cats are never going to learn to herd themselves.

    13. Stellaaaaa*

      If it’s a time-sensitive issue and you don’t mind coming out swinging, sometimes the only solution is to get in touch with the department chair. These days it’s not uncommon for timely email communication with students to be part of professors’ contracted job duties. Same for keeping scheduled office hours. When I’ve reached points of desperation, I’ve had good results with emailing the chair something like, “I realize this is forward, but Prof X isn’t answering my emails and he’s never in his office during the times given on the syllabus. Can you tell me when I can expect him to be in his office?” Department heads don’t like to hear that their employees are actively making it difficult for students to succeed and eventually give large endowments to the school.

      1. dear liza dear liza*

        Be *very* careful here and know your campus culture. If there’s a strong sense of shared governance at your university, the chairs are not viewed as the professors “bosses.” The chairs’ role is more of coordinator for the department. How that plays out can be a million different ways, but if you sic a chair on a professor without understanding the departmental relationship, you can poison your relationship with that professor FOREVER.

    14. Ultraviolet*

      The answer to your question varies a lot depending on your position. For some roles, the answer would be that it just is part of your job to answer the redundant questions and fix things when instructions aren’t followed, just because the overall goal of the organization requires that professors spend very little time on these things. For these roles, success is largely evaluated based on how easy you can make these things for professors. In that case, you could take steps to reduce actual confusion (like maybe have someone read a few of your emails and let you know whether they could be made more clear), but it wouldn’t really be appropriate to try to get the professors to put more effort into something.

      If your role isn’t really a supportive one, I think you just have to figure out to what kind of consequences for following or not following instructions you can impose. If you have the ability to say, “forms submitted according to these instructions will be processed faster than ones that aren’t,” for instance, that might help. Or maybe you could wait 24 hours before responding to emails that are requesting info that’s obvious from your original emails.

      It’s definitely rude that they call you by the wrong name.

    15. SirTechSpec*

      Count me under “let me know if you find out”. For our current big initiative, we’re trying to rely less on e-mail (though we’re still sending it, of course) and more on posters and 1-on-1 sessions with people they already talk to about curricular stuff. So, I guess that’s a vote for “find someone whose emails they DO read, and get them to help you.”

    16. Allison Mary*

      Would Boomerang be helpful here? It can be used with either Gmail or MS Outlook.

      If I were in your shoes, and I was waiting on information from someone, first, I would have Boomerang delay the email so that it is sent at the most ideal hour when it’s most likely to be responded to, according to their own research (first thing in the morning, if I recall correctly – 6 or 7 AM?). And then, I would use Boomerang’s feature to continue emailing the same request for information, at whatever frequency I want, until the email was responded to. I believe Boomerang even has a feature where you can specify, only continue sending this repeat email as long as there has been no reply.

    17. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I have no idea, but I sympathize. I think one of my coworkers is legitimately proud that she never reads emails; I am legitimately annoyed at how many times just today this inconvenienced me.

    18. Sophia in the DMV (DC-MD-VA)*

      As a professor I think it’s important that you know we receive lots and lots of emails each day. From students, it’s often questions that can be found on the syllabus. We have a reputation of being absent minded bc of the amount of things we’re juggling with regard to research, teaching and service (let alone life) and the various things that come with each rank (e.g. Assistant prof worrying about tenure and how to balance everything)

      That being said:
      – Make sure your subject line is clear
      – If it’s overtly long, a convo over skype or phone may be better if you can’t make office hours
      – Be explicitly clear about what you are asking and if there’s a deadline wrt a needed response

  15. Anon for this*

    I have a coworker who has a chronic heart condition. Twice this year (most recently last month), he has been taken to the hospital by ambulance from work. The company made him get a note from his doctor before they would allow him to return to work. He got a note from his doctor saying he was cleared for full duty with no restrictions.

    Our manager, however, has decided to adjust his schedule. Most of us work rotating shifts, but now my coworker has been placed on a Monday-Friday dayshift schedule. Rotating shifts take a toll on the body and mind, but at this job, rotating shifts come with built-in overtime, shift premiums, and holiday pay, which results in roughly 25-35% more pay over the course of the year than a dayshift-only schedule. My coworker wants to continue working rotating shifts for the extra pay, and also because of some of the other benefits like the ability to make doctor’s appointments on weekdays without having to use PTO.

    I think our manager believes the dayshift-only schedule is for my coworker’s own good, and probably views it as some kind of accommodation (there are actually other people in the department who are working this schedule because they requested it as an accommodation to their disabilities). I’m also guessing that they have some concerns about liability, if he has a heart attack at work or something. Since my coworker does not want his schedule to be changed, though, it seems to me that this is discrimination on the basis of a disability, because he is getting paid less because of his heart condition. Is this legal?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      Is there more coverage during the daytime shifts? If this employee’s condition is going to keep progressing and if future hospitalizations are likely, it’s reasonable to schedule him during times when other people are already there to keep things running. It could also be that there are accommodations available during the day that are not possible to instate at night. There are a lot of liability issues lurking around the fringes of situations like this. At face value, an employee has no right to the schedule he likes best. Accommodations go both ways: if this is the best legal way that the business can continue to employ someone who has disrupted the workplace twice with medical scares, those accommodations have to stand.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yes, there is more coverage during the daytime, and that’s probably part of the thought process. Not everyone likes the schedule they have, but it seems a little different in this case because his schedule was changed specifically because of his medical condition. He is a top performer and his attendance is average (he doesn’t call in sick excessively). I can see it from the company’s perspective, too, but I hate to see a great employee getting screwed over just because he has some health problems.

        1. Stellaaaaa*

          Two hospitalizations during work probably means that there are more that you don’t know about. Being fair isn’t just about accommodating this one person and assuming that everyone else is perfectly able to do what this one person needs. This person needs to be scheduled at the same time as other adults who are capable of keeping a level head during a medical crisis and who can be trusted to recognize warning signs and call an ambulance on time. This stuff could be triggering for other people or cause difficult shutdowns during crucial points in the workday. I don’t know the legalities of it, but I feel that two ambulance calls inside of one year might enable an employer to impose safety regulations.

          I would also caution you against assuming you know everything about what’s going on. It’s not uncommon for someone with an illness to resist what’s good for them, especially when the changes are new. You didn’t read the doctor’s note. Your employer might be cleared to go back to work and even to work overnights, but there’s no telling if the doctor recommended a shorter and more consistent schedule. You can’t fall back on, “John was managing just fine before!” because he wasn’t. His heart condition isn’t going away.

          1. Natalie*

            That’s not really how ADA works, though. You can’t restrict a disabled employee’s work because it might trigger other employees or because it’s “what’s best for them”. He’s an adult and he, frankly, has the right to risk his health if he wants.

            1. Stellaaaaa*

              The “reasonable” part of “reasonable accommodation” comes into play. It could be argued that an employee with extreme medical needs can only work when management is on premises. And if someone else has an accommodation or issue that makes it difficult to task her with being responsible for calling an ambulance, whose issue takes precedence? I also don’t feel comfortable with the accommodation being, “Hey, all you other employees, you know how John almost died twice in front of you? Now we’re tasking you with making sure he doesn’t die on future shifts.”

              1. Natalie*

                You’re describing a “reasonable accommodation” that the employee would be making for the benefit of the company, but that’s not what the ADA addresses or requires. Employees don’t make accommodations, employers do.

                And employers are not generally allowed to restrict the work of a disabled employee unless they have a strong *business reason* to do so, such as the employee not being able to perform core job tasks with or without accommodation. The law isn’t really concerned with whether other employees feel uncomfortable. IIRC this is often specifically addressed in compliance documents as an invalid reason for discrimination.

                1. Stellaaaaa*

                  It all depends on whether a chronic heart condition qualifies as a disability, and I’m not sure it does.

                  There can be a legit business reason to not put someone with a major health issue on the skeleton night crew.

                2. Ultraviolet*

                  @Stellaaaaa – Even if the heart condition doesn’t qualify (in the sense of being found not to substantially limit major life activities), there’s still the “regarded as disabled” clause of the ADA. I am not a lawyer and am not happy with any of the arguments I’ve just typed and deleted, but I think basically if the employer said, “This guy is so sick that it’s dangerous to have him work nights,” and the court ruled that the employer had exaggerated that danger (willfully or no), the employee is protected by some parts of the ADA regardless of whether the heart condition itself met the “substantially limits major life activities” bar.

                  Based on that understanding, I’d argue that it doesn’t depend on whether the condition qualifies as a disability, but on whether the impact (and probability) of the guy having another episode is so big that the schedule restriction is justified for business reasons.

          2. Anon for this*

            It’s true that I didn’t see the doctor’s note, but I have to believe him when he says the doctor signed him off with no restrictions (I’m pretty sure there is a form for the doctor to fill out, so it’s not just a free-form letter from the doctor). And I know that his heart problem is ongoing and this could very well happen again, and he can be a bit stubborn when it comes to letting people help him, but it just seems wrong that even though the doctor says he can work with no restrictions, the manager feels that he knows the guy’s medical needs better than the doctor and is going to impose restrictions anyway — restrictions that take money out of my coworker’s pocket.

            I was working with him during the last incident. I was the one who called 911. It was a terrifying experience to watch him almost die in front of me, but really, something like that could happen any time, to anyone. There was a letter here a couple of weeks ago from someone who got taken away from work in an ambulance because of an allergic reaction, and a lot of people in the comments shared their own experiences with having or witnessing medical crises at work for a variety of reasons. It happens, even to people who have no chronic medical problems. We were actually on dayshift when this happened, and our manager had taken the day off and wasn’t around anyway.

      2. michelenyc*

        That was my thought too! As a manager I would be really uncomfortable scheduling someone that clearly has a heart condition at a time of day that is safest for them and the company.

    2. DCGirl*

      Is this a permanent change of schedule or temporary while your coworker recovers from the most recent event? Does your job involve safety issues? Safety issues give the employer greater latitude to make changes.

      Ultimately, your coworker needs to discuss all the specifics of his situation with an attorney. You haven’t posted enough for anyone here to make a judgement. It’s not inherently illegal to change his schedule — the issue is all the underlying facts and reasons.

      1. Anon for this*

        It’s a permanent change of schedule. According to the guy’s doctor, he is recovered from the latest incident and has no need for a schedule change. There are some potential safety issues with the job, but I’m not sure if it would make any different with respect to safety to have him working dayshift vs. rotating shifts. I’m not sure if he would be willing to talk to an attorney about this; I was hoping it would be clear-cut enough that he could go to HR and point out that this is discriminatory and they could get his regular schedule reinstated.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This is where it gets murky for me. He has had two events now and I am thinking the company can do what they think is best here. Not quite a parallel situation and definitely less concerning, I had a machine that I was supposed to use. Twice I lost my grip and the machine hit the wall. I admitted I just was not strong enough to run it. I got banned from using it. (Which was actually okay with me and did not impact my ability to do my job in any manner.) But it was considered a problem because I had two incidents with the machine. Which is what I am picking up on here, your coworker had two incidents and they were pretty serious incidents. I can see a company wanting to change something because of safety after the second incident.

          I know it can feel like punishment, “I got sick so you cut my pay.” I understand that part. But I have also seen companies keep people employed long after they should have been home on rest, so sometimes the story goes that way also. Companies can strive to keep people working as long as possible, perhaps this is also part of their thinking. “Let’s get this guy on a set schedule, so he can get rest and get other parts of the story settled somewhat and then consider changing him back to his old routine.”
          I am thinking this because it sounds like they did not change anything after his first heart event.

          Again, I understand, no one wants their pay cut. Perhaps he can talk to the boss and something can be done to get him some extra hours. Maybe the boss would agree to a nine hour shift or maybe the boss would agree to let him come in on a Saturday when there are plenty of people around. I am guessing at how your company is set up, though. The main idea is to talk to the boss and ask for more hours, the solution may not have to be just the options of a) old rotating schedule or b) new limited schedule. There might be a middle ground somewhere.

    3. LCL*

      Hm, this is interesting. Coworker really should be on dayshift for their health, but doesn’t want to. We have contract language here that wouldn’t allow me to move a shift person to permanent days without their consent, unless they prove themselves unable to do the job for some reason.
      FWIW, when we have had nightshift people develop health issues, I have offered to move them to dayshift and every one has refused. They use more and more leave time and eventually retire.
      How are shifts assigned? Do you have a written procedure, or is it solely managements’ choice? Or, management tries to give people the shift they want, but can reassign people?

      1. Anon for this*

        There’s not a written procedure, but it is supposed to be “fair and equitable.” Until just recently, the policy has been that everyone is required to work rotating shifts unless they can’t for medical reasons (with a doctor’s note saying so) or they have specific, voluntary job duties that require a dayshift schedule. Right now, management has reduced the number of people on rotating shift to augment dayshift, but the assigned dayshift workers are changed quarterly (except those with medical excuses and special job duties). The new plan is to keep this guy on dayshift only and not change him back to rotating shifts after 3 months.

        It makes me sad to think of him retiring. Despite his health problems, he is still a great worker, and he wants to keep working. I wish there were a position for him with more flexible hours, but I think he really likes what he is doing and he’s really good at it, and I don’t think he’d want to move to a cushy desk job if it were offered to him.

    4. Anon Responder*

      The company should probably talk to an employment law attorney about this because it sounds like the employee is being treated differently because of the heart condition. (Does it meet the definition of disability? Is he being “regarded as” having a disability and being treated differently because of that? Are there state laws that may cover this?) I would have Concerns from a legal perspective.

    5. Observer*

      It’s hard to say definitively, but this is definitely in the grey area, at least. It’s highly possible that this steps on the ADA.

  16. SI Anon*

    I’m relatively new to working in a professional office setting (as opposed to retail, waitressing, etc.) so I’m curious: What sort of personal items do you keep at work?

    I just have a phone charger, a mug and a box of tea, and headphones. (I’m taking my cues from coworkers- none of them have a lot of “stuff” either.) I know my mom has a TON of personal stuff in her office- candy dishes, funny signs on the walls, a couple of plants in her window, novelty pens (like the ones with big feathers on the ends), etc.- but I suspect that that’s probably not the norm.

    So. What do you have? And is there anything that you’ve found particularly useful to keep around?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I think it depends on your storage– I have my own cube with lots of lockable drawers, so I have a charger, a water cup, 2 mugs, novelty glasses to hold pens, a heat pad, a tiny Christmas tree, headphones, a bunch of art/comic/printouts on my walls…the list goes on. But then again, I also made a conscious decision to have more stuff since I figure if I’m stuck in a cube I can make it as nice for me as possible.

      Having at least one nice/novelty/distinctive pen is the best thing you can have, in my opinion. Keeps your writing implements from walking off.

    2. Temperance*

      I have a decent sized office, and I have some kid artwork, my Funkos (Clark Griswold and Cousin Eddiw FTW), and a tiny Commander Riker.

      I keep them around because they bring me joy. I turn around and see them, and it makes me feel good.

    3. Dawn*

      Well I have the standard drawer full of emergency snacks, ibuprofen, hand lotion, etc. I have a few knick-knacks under my monitors on my desk, just small ones that make me smile, and I have a couple of postcards put up that remind me of fun vacations I’ve taken. I also have a shawl and a blanket because sometimes the heat doesn’t work in our building.

      At my last job I had a fully decorated desk with plants and pictures and stuff- and I’ve been meaning to bring in pictures for the walls of my office but I’ve just not bothered to yet!

    4. Fiona the Lurker*

      One thing I found absolutely vital was a picture of my son; it reminded me why I was working every day! Otherwise I’d say the only absolute essential is your own mug – and maybe some bottled water and a pack of tissues!

    5. Frankie Seeks Job*

      I have a small closet unit, where I keep my tea, snacks, hygene items. On my desk I keep a funko toy so that the desk actually feels somewhat like mine.

    6. CherryScary*

      Looking around my desk right now, I have phone charger, headphones, mug, and handcream (my hands get super dry in the colder months). I know i have a stash of snacks in a drawer with plastic silverware for days I work out at lunch, which I will also offer to nearby coworkers if needed. Reminds me that I need to get more of those…

      1. CherryScary*

        Oh! Also have a few figurines that “guard” my PC tower, and a whiteboard I hung on the outside of my cube. Good for noting out of office days, and I put work-friendly inspirational quotes daily.

    7. Spills*

      I have the items you have, plus a little plant for some color/life and a little embroidered decoration that a friend made for me. I already struggle with having too much clutter with all my papers/staying organized, so I don’t like to have any more “stuff” than I need on my desk! :)

    8. Emilia Bedelia*

      On my desk I currently have a few mugs,a water bottle, a phone charger,a little desk knickknack that I made a while ago that’s sentimental and a mini-pumpkin (tis the season). I have a flipper cabinet where I keep tea, some snacks, personal health stuff like ibuprofen and Chapstick, an extra cardigan, gym clothes, my purse, and whatever other personal stuff I have that day. Under my desk I have my umbrella and a yoga mat (for lunchtime yoga class). On my cube walls I have a few birthday/event cards that I received. Other people in my office have personal photos or other knickknacks- one of my coworkers has a ton of travel pictures hanging that always starts a conversation with people. I think there’s a reasonable amount of leeway in terms of what’s professional to keep at your desk, but following office norms is a good way to start. If you have a cabinet or drawer where you can hide stuff away (or even just a box under your desk), that’s really helpful. I tend to think that personal items on your desk should be pretty carefully curated.
      In terms of usefulness, my mugs, cardigan, and umbrella are my top picks.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        Here’s another that I forgot: a pile of napkins/paper towels is a lifesaver, if you eat/drink at your desk.
        (inspired by the fact that I’m eating lunch right now, and will absolutely need a napkin or two when I’m done…)

    9. Lia*

      Phone charger, water bottle, pen holder, hand sanitizer/lotion, my own coffee mug plus a a travel mug, a small drawer with emergency supplies (band-aids, ibuprofen, toothbrush, floss, comb, lip balm, safety pins, breath mints,mirror, nail file and clippers), and a shelf of emergency food rations: tea/coffee, dried fruit, crackers, cliff bars, and the like.

      1. Pwyll*

        Basically the same for me. I’d add to your list: a tide pen, an emergency suit jacket, a framed copy of my professional license, and a family photo.

      2. SI Anon*

        You know I hadn’t even thought of emergency supplies, but that’s a really good list of things to have on hand! I think I’m going to have to bring some of my own emergency supplies in now. Thanks!

    10. SquirrelGirl*

      It’s funny in our office it ranges from some people having nothing to other people having their desks cluttered with personal items. I think I fall somewhere in the middle, with a candle, hand sanitizer, my water bottle, a funko pop my coworker gave me and a little succulent plant (yay window desk!)

    11. T3k*

      I… didn’t have anything set up at my past 2 jobs… yeah, boring me. My first job out of college, everyone was supposed to choose a poster and it’d get hung in your little area (open floor, but it was only 4-5 of us all along the walls). I did choose a poster, but they never got around to hanging it before I was laid off *sigh* Second job, admittedly I was of the mindset that I wasn’t going to stay there long term, but the other reasons were 1) one of the coworkers was nosy as hell. He’d just randomly start rifling through the drawers of my desk and 2) people walk off with stuff ALL. THE. TIME. I had to actually label the ruler so I’d have at least one laying around. And pens? I found a bunch of them in the desk so I put them in a large mug. By the time I left, there were maybe 5 left.

    12. all aboard the anon train*

      Phone charger, headphones, water bottle and coffee mug, tissues, hand lotion, and a blanket (it gets cold with the AC in the summer).

      I usually keep a few spare tampons or pads in my locked drawers (we have tiny locked cabinets for each person), along with a bottle of ibuprofen and a spare set of contacts and solution. A little makeup bag full of travel sized toiletries like a hair brush, deodorant, a toothbrush. That’s usually where I keep my gym clothes.

      I’m not big on personal items, but I do have a calendar I got from papersource to give some personality to my area. We’re in an open space environment, so there’s not much room to decorate.

      Some people in offices I’ve been in have gone crazy with personal items, so I do think it’s a know your environment type of thing.

      1. SI Anon*

        A calendar! I’ve been meaning to bring one in and keep forgetting so thank you for the reminder! (I suppose it’s a bit late for a 2016 calendar, but I’ll definitely have to remember to pick up one for 2017.)

    13. JMegan*

      I face a blank wall when I’m sitting at my desk, so I got some generic artwork from Bed, Bath, and Beyond – nothing fancy, just something to break up the sightline a bit.

      Personal stuff – a drawer of hand lotion, ibuprofen, tampons, and so on. On my bulletin board, I have pictures of my partner and my kids (one of each, not a huge display), and one small piece of each of their artwork. On my desk, a coffee mug and a water bottle, and a couple of small fidget toys to play with.

      And a Simpsons Kid Rock, just because it makes me laugh!

    14. Eddie Turr*

      I have a phone charger, headphones, a few knick-knacks (mostly because they’d just take up space if I kept them at home), a couple of framed photos, and a water bottle. In my drawers, I keep antihistamines, ibuprofen, bobby pins, and spray-on deodorant. Oh, and a fleece jacket in case I get cold.

      Some of my coworkers have TONS of personal photos or other mementos, inspiring/funny signs, a few have plants, and I bet a couple have maybe a blazer or some key pieces of clothing in case they have a surprise meeting. A few have pint glass collections, fancy bottles of beer or liquor, one guy used to have an enormous CD collection, it’s kinda anything goes here. We’re all in cubicles, but they’re pretty spacious as far as cubicles go.

    15. Mary Dempster*

      I have an office now, but about the same amount of stuff I used to keep in a cube/open setting. A picture from my wedding (not even framed, just tacked up), couple of snacks in my drawers, running shoes in case I ever feel like working out (we have a small gym), and a phone charger. Once you have your own office you have a little more leeway, I don’t think my manager would bat an eye if I put up funny signs or added a candy dish, but I don’t like the clutter.

    16. Laura*

      It depends on the office. Most of the places I’ve worked it’s whatever you want, but one place only wanted you to decorate with two or less photos of the family. I have a bulletin board portion of my wall which I pin up postcards of wherever I travel. People always seem to find it a great conversation starter. When I had an internal transfer, I started over and the guys around me were disappointed.

    17. Collie*

      My coworkers’ spaces are pretty stark, so I don’t have a ton, but what I do have is more colorful/bulkier than what the others have. I keep two pictures above my monitor (frames painted myself), a cat picture frame (it’s a bit out there and tacky, but I love it), a photocube with more pictures, a POP figure, a rock with a phrase engraved on it, hand lotion, hand sanitizer, a water bottle, a woven coaster, and personal business cards. I also keep plastic grocery bags, gum, straws, and painkillers in my desk drawer (and I’ve been meaning to bring in some feminine hygiene materials…).

    18. Aurion*

      My mug, hand lotion, a Mickey Mouse stress ball (about fist-sized, it’s big), a fountain pen, an inkwell (tucked in the corner and no one ever sees it–I’ve a big cube), two kinds of loose tea leaves in the cabinet with my purse. I tote my phone charger to work and back every day so that doesn’t count.

      Everything but the inkwell gets daily use. (Hey, my enjoying Mickey’s cuteness counts as use, right?)

    19. Alton*

      I have a small plant, a box of Kleenex, and in my desk I have a little bottle of hand lotion, a box of tea, and a spare phone charger. I also have a few pens that are mine.

      So not much, and nothing exciting. But my “office” is more of a reception area, which limits my self-expression. I don’t see myself ever having a ton of personal stuff, because I’m pretty reserved and private. But if I had an office that felt more like my space, I could see myself putting up some art, having some pictures, or a few knick-knacks.

    20. Annie Moose*

      My silly putty is non-negotiable. I have to be doing something with my hands at all times, so I have this little tub of it that I play with while I’m talking or waiting for something to load. It’s the best “toy” because you can do a bunch of different things with it, it occupies my hands nicely.

    21. Matilda*

      Personally, I don’t have much. I never got into bringing pictures of people in (it felt too weird right out of college and then I never developed the habit), but now I tend to have a picture of my kid as my computer background. At my first job I printed out a bunch of pictures for places I wanted to go and tapped them up (motivation to keep working), now I have a few library type relevant things I’ve gotten along the way (a book postcard, magnet, etc.), but that’s pretty much it. I have a rather large bag/purse so most of my must haves I just keep with me (lotion, chapstick, excedrin, etc.).

    22. Jaydee*

      It really varies from what I’ve seen. I tend to try to keep my desk itself relatively uncluttered (because it fills up with work-related paper and supplies so easily as it is). But I usually have brightly colored post-its or a fun notepad of some sort, and a candle or a picture of my kid or something like that. Since I have a full office rather than a cubical, I tend to focus my decorating on the walls and bookshelves. I’ll put up some art work or fun prints on the walls and put some pictures, Funko figures, or other small objects on the shelves. And I’ll usually have kid art on my bulletin board and a few plants if I have a window. My drawers are another matter entirely and have random stuff from staples and paperclips to bandaids and chewing gum to a small Batman figure and earbuds to emergency snacks.

    23. DevAssist*

      I have about tree small sticky notes with motivational quotes (because I NEED to keep myself positive), a box of tea, a folder of “personal” work paperwork (salary agreement, journal-style notes, etc.), and a lip balm. I’ve been in my position for about 9 months and I could pack up in a minute and it would look like I was never here. I keep it that way because finding a better fitting job is my top priority, and I don’t want to do anything that creates “attachment” to my workplace.

      If I was in a job I loved, I would likely have a personal mug, pictures, fun colored pens, maybe a Funko, etc.

    24. LizB*

      We do a lot of hot desking at my workplace, so the only personal things I keep at work are my water bottle (since it can easily be moved to whatever desk I’m working at) and my space heater (which I’m happy for anyone to use). I kind of wish I could keep things like headphones, gum, chapstick, etc., but there really isn’t anywhere to put them.

    25. Puffle*

      Hmm, I have a desk in an open-plan office, so my personal stuff is more or less limited to what I can fit in my drawer, which already has a lot of stationery and notepads in there. I have a box of tissues, painkillers, throat lozenges, hand-cream, lip-balm, chewing gum and a cereal bar for snack emergencies

    26. periwinkle*

      Hidden in drawers: A bottle of naproxen sodium (aka Aleve); hand lotion and lip balm; a few scarves/blanket scarves in different weights because the office temp is variable; plastic forks/spoons; a spare nice long-sleeve t-shirt in case of coffee spills; several cans of soup and a microwave-suitable soup mug for those days I don’t pack a lunch; salt/pepper/red pepper flakes; assorted teas and sweeteners; assorted nuts and candies; Aeropress and ground coffee
      On the desk: Two mugs; pen holder; two desk toys for those duller conference calls; three little decorative sculptures
      On the wall: Calendar and a mini movie poster

      Most of my co-workers have family photos and other decorative items. This is the Pacific Northwest so a lot of people have light therapy boxes. A few people have nothing visible but a mousepad and calendar. Others decorate more extensively. I won’t keep anything irreplaceable or even valuable at work – in case of fire I’d grab my backpack and run. Okay, I might grab the Aeropress too…

    27. AdminMeow*

      My current job I got a desk and that was it so I had to stock everything else – plus my boss is never around and has no desk but I do share the office with another admin. Since I had free reign to do what I wanted I had a decent amount which I realized when I started packing before putting in my two week notice. Two trips to the car to get it all done. One was for desk lamp, desktop organizer/file holder, and floor heater/fan. The second was a Rubbermaid tote with any docs that were mine, sweater, spare shoes, napkins/cups, couple Halloween decorations, little bin of snacks & personal items (brush, nail file and clippers, mini hairspray, headphones, floss, mints, glasses cleaner etc.), couple desk photos, wrist pad, and misc desk crap that I had brought in at some point. We are an office with self-employed folks and their teams so obviously people tend to have a fair amount more. Many times when people leave it involves furniture, signs, etc too. I personally like to have a workspace decorated & with anything I may need otherwise I’ll be endlessly distracted by a hangnail or something.

    28. Gene*

      Looking around, I see:

      Watercolor of a hawk done by FirstWife
      Checkered flag from my first racing win
      Bib numbers from multiple bike rides/walks
      Some Simpsons, Family Guy, and South Park figurines
      Assorted hats and a couple of bicycle helmets
      Cycling shoes and a spare pair of work boots
      Full Harry Potter series hardcovers
      About 30 other books – not work related
      A stack of spherical magnets
      Multiple water bottles
      (counting) 35 coffee cups/mugs/tumblers – including a Chocolate Teapots, LTD one
      Service award plaques
      Conference name badges hanging alongside 10k medals
      There’s more, but you get the idea

    29. Bad Candidate*

      I think it depends on your office. At my old job I had a ton of decorative “stuff” like your mom has. At this one the only thing I keep at my desk is my fan and a rear-view mirror. I haven’t really found I needed anything else.

    30. TheLazyB*

      God I’m so jealous of you guys. I miss having a desk that was mine. No one has allocated desks any more in our organisation :( I have a locker but it’s not the same

    31. Q*

      Don’t take anything that is too important to you or not replaceable. Things sometimes have a habit of disappearing and you don’t want to lose anything if value (monetary or emotional).

    32. Jen RO*

      I have a ton of crap. The company gave me the computer, headphones, a notebook and some pens… I brought a pencil holder + assorted pens and highlighters, a couple of makeup items, hair clips and hairbands, assorted food items (candy, nuts, tea), a plush seal (the animal) I got as a present, a plush moose (left by a former coworker), a plastic owl I got as a present, a hairband with bat antennas from last Halloween, sanitary pads, hand cream, medicine. This stuff fills 3 drawers and covers 70% of my desk. I am lucky to not work with clean freaks.

      1. Jen RO*

        Oh, and I think the most useful one I have is my pair of nail scissors. I have crap nails and hate hate hate it when they get broken, so when it happens I wait until I am alone in my corner and cut the offending nail. Yes, I know this makes me a monster, but I don’t do it when people can see and I use the trash can.

        1. Formica Dinette*

          LOL! If you wait until you’re alone to quietly deal with a broken nail, you’re considerate–not a monster.

    33. Formica Dinette*

      I know some people who bring in things to personalize their desk on the first day, which includes mugs, action figures, photos, etc.

      I prefer to bring in the basics and find the rest accumulates over time. I’ve been at my current desk for a year and currently have: a mug, a water glass, hand lotion, hand sanitizer, vitamins, lint roller, mints, toothbrush, toothpaste, phone charger, books related to my work, and a spare cardigan.

      IMO, you’re doing the right thing by taking cues from your coworkers.

      2. SI Anon*

        I didn’t want to bring anything in on my first day because I wasn’t sure what was allowed or not! I keep finding myself thinking halfway through the day “Oh, I should bring xyz in tomorrow so I have it on hand” …and then I forget and so nothing ends up accumulating. So seeing everyone’s lists has been very helpful in reminding me of all the things I said I wanted to bring in. (Like hand lotion! I keep forgetting to bring in hand lotion, so thank you for that!)

    34. Elizabeth West*

      In my cube, besides computer equipment and a phone, I have the following.

      On my desk:
      –A plant named Horace (soon he will be getting a friend who needs more light than I have at home)
      –Kleenex
      –My AAM mug on a mug warmer :)
      –A tiny beach chair holder for my phone
      –Lotion
      –Hand sanitizer
      –A small calendar of London landmarks I get from Amazon
      Everything else on the cube walls is work-related. I did have some nerd posters, but I took them home since I never looked at them (they were behind me) and I’m trying to redecorate there.

      Other stuff:
      –Some random cute stuff coworkers gave me
      –A cardigan for cold days or AC overload
      –A footrest that contains a tiny blanket for same
      –A t-shirt to change into for stair climbs (I take it home each week)
      –A fan under my desk to cool off after stair climbs
      –Food in my cubby (crackers, cookies, tea, cups of instant soup from the hippie store, straws, etc.)
      –In the other cubby, baby wipes for after stair climbs and a duster and Clorox wipes for keeping tidy
      –A few office supplies in my drawer; sticky notes, legal pads, pushpins, markers, and computer screen cleaning pads I got from the mailroom. My stapler, paper clips, and tape never get used. I don’t need them most of the time because everything we do is digital.

      My headphones, chargers, and any personal electronic stuff comes in and goes home with me each day in my tote bag. Oh, we also each have a company-issued backpack for our computers. I only use mine when I’m going to work from home.

      It seems like a lot, but I’ve been in this cube for three years. I’d start with just the essentials, based on your space, and you’ll no doubt add to it in time.

    36. Kittymommy*

      I have a smaller desk than my last job but I have a little photo of my parents/grandparents when they were younger (they’re deceased), a Bluetooth speaker for my phone, phone charger, coffee mug, pen/paper clip holder, chapstick. I have literally a drawer of food, creamer, sugar, make up bag (I can work dinner late nights), toothbrush and toothpaste. Another drawer has dine protein bars for my boss and otc meds that I use and others beg for !

    37. Red Reader*

      When I had a cube, I generally kept
      a stash of napkins
      a bottle of yellow mustard (for when I packed sandwiches for lunch – putting it on “fresh” kept the bread from getting soggy!)
      a cup or water bottle
      packets of crystal light for flavoring water on days when I wanted something sweet
      a fork and spoon
      a phone charger
      a small plant (I’m pretty sure that money tree went eight years without ever encountering natural light)
      a sweater, scarf, and fingerless gloves (I work in healthcare admin, 90% of my coworkers were women of menopausal age who flat out wrote “heat flash” on the thermostat)
      a couple bucks in quarters for the vending machine
      a couple of little figurines
      headphones

    38. zora*

      I used to keep several personal items on my desk, including souvenirs coworkers had brought back from travelling, as well as keeping my own coffee press/coffee and having the designated “Drawer of Chocolate Treats” for the office.

      But I don’t really like my current job and hope not to be here long, plus, our desks are very small, so I only have a phone charger, a large glass bottle for water, and three tiny personal tchotckes, one being a small polaroid of me and my bf at a fancy event. Oh, and I keep a set of silverware, so that I don’t have to constantly throw away plastic utensils. And the company provides snacks, so I don’t have to stock my own chocolate.

      In the past I’ve really loved having a pretty plant on my desk, though, I would do that if I had more room. And it’s super necessary to keep chocolate treats nearby! And I always make sure I have some snacks and back up lunches.

    39. Fortitude Jones*

      I bought my own office supplies from See Jane Work because I really wanted an acrylic and gold stapler. I also have an acrylic and gold tape dispenser, a silver mint julep pencil cup, a silver card tray for my business cards, a silver note pad for phone messages, a lighted mirror, and an acrylic vase full of fake white lilies tied with silver ribbon. I also have some framed diplomas and textbooks I purchased for designation exams in my field on what’s affectionately known as The Diva Desk.

    40. Fish Microwaver*

      Tissues, toothpaste and brush, hand lotion, nail file, non perishable food items (tins of soup , tuna etc), painkillers.

  17. Overly Educated*

    How do you feel about people listing their degree after their name in email signatures/on business cards? I work in higher ed, but not in a traditional academic department, and I have a Ph.D. I was recently told that the my department doesn’t recommend listing degrees after your name because it can “get messy.” That explanation doesn’t make much sense to me, which makes me wonder if there’s a different reason behind the suggestion (like they think it seems pretentious to list your degree). I’m of the mind that I’m working in an academic setting, so it makes sense to say “[Name], Ph.D.” in my email signature. It’s silly but I worked hard for those letters! I don’t see a reason not to include them (and it’s not like I’m asking people to refer to me as Dr. [Name] or anything like that, it’s just an email signature).

    I’m curious what others think about this? What do others with grad degrees do?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I think it depends very much on your industry. In mine, a PhD definitely looks good to clients, so if you have one, it’s pasted all over your email signature, your business cards, everything.

    2. Kate*

      In academia I think it is reasonable to list the letters. But I have to admit I personally find it a little silly. The difference between a master’s and doctorate can be pretty small depending on the program. And not all master’s or doctorates are created equal!

      1. Overly Educated*

        Agreed! But to that point I’d say that my colleagues with master’s should be comfortable listing their degree after their name as well.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      I think that it’s pretentious and annoying unless the degree is required or very closely related to your job (e.g. PhD for professors, Esq for attorneys working as attorneys, etc.).

      1. Overly Educated*

        So working in a university leading research/data collection projects…. but not a prof, is that closely related enough? I’d also add that a PhD is not always required to be a professor (some have master’s).

        I can see how it’d be annoying/pretentious to bring it up all the time, but in an email signature? Really? It seems so minor to me.

        1. Lotso*

          If it is THAT minor, why are you so worried about it?

          That isn’t meant to be rude or snarky. It just struck me that you do think it’s a bigger deal than you are letting on.

          In reality, if it’s minor and no big deal, you wouldn’t have written in asking about it. You would’ve just done what you wanted to do.

          And as an answer, I tend to roll my eyes at the people that insist on being called Dr just because they have a Phd.
          You are not your degree.

          1. Overly Educated*

            Oh for sure, I’m definitely over analyzing it (that’s just my personality). I wrote in because I wanted to get others’ perspectives and see what other people do.

            And again, I’m not insisting on being called Dr., I’m listing Ph.D. after my name. I’m not asking people to call me Dr. in conversation (and I roll my eyes at those people as well). Idk, I feel like there’s a distinction between the two, though maybe people would disagree.

            1. the_scientist*

              Before I was born (so like, 30 years ago) at this point, my mom worked with a guy who worked in a technical specialist type role, and who happened to have a PhD in ancient sanskrit or something (basically, a field entirely unrelated to the job he was doing) and he referred to himself and basically insisted that his coworkers refer to him as “Dr. So-and-So.” (So, he was basically “the maestro” from Seinfeld.) My mom tells this story nearly 3 decades later because it’s a funny example of a pretentious guy with an over-inflated ego. Don’t be this guy, and you’ll probably be fine.

        2. Pwyll*

          I could see it being an issue if your department thought it confused people into thinking you were a member of the faculty or something. Or if you worked in a medical research location (I knew someone with a Ph.D. in a medical setting who was specifically told she could not use it so that test subjects wouldn’t accidentally think she was a physician.) But I’d really just follow the lead of the other people in the department.

      2. Jennifer*

        …Yeah, I think it’s more likely to come off as pretentious, and “messy” might be code for “you’re coming off as a snob.” Plus there’s a certain weird disconnect about people calling themselves a doctor when they are not a medical doctor. (I really, really wish they’d used another word for that.)

        My new boss actually does this and I think some people are kinda eye-rolling a bit about it, or at least that’s my impression from certain commentary I’ve heard. We don’t go around calling him Dr. Lastname (I’ve known him for at least a decade, I’m not doing it at this point!) and he’s not that kind of dude IRL, but he does have it on business cards, his e-mail sig, etc. if he’s being formal about stuff. More on paperwork than anywhere else.

        1. Overly Educated*

          But is he going by “Dr. Lastname?” or “Full Name, Ph.D?” Idk I feel like there’s a difference, though others might disagree. I pretty much never refer to myself as Dr., and I can definitely see how that can come off as pretentious or misleading (agreed they should’ve come up with a different word for that!)

          1. Bob Barker*

            I am in academia, where a lot of non-tenure-track people have PhDs anyway. And it’s a sad statement on academia that staff members who do have PhDs (and let you know it) are taken way, WAY more seriously than staff members who don’t. So most of those who do find a way of working that fact into their email signatures, or their office profiles, or something. None of them go by Dr. Staff, but several include — or selectively include — Anna Staff, PhD.

            (It’s ridiculous and tedious, but I don’t hold it against my fellow staff members. What’s funniest/most puzzling is that PhD is the only credential staff do this with: I have a master’s, and nobody except HR cares. The Provost has an MD! And… nobody cares. You would think that the idea of getting CPR — or a rectal exam — from the Provost of your university would be an interesting and worthwhile fact to know! But they care a ton more about his PhD in genetics engineering than they do about his ability to save your life.)

        2. Anion*

          Ph.Ds aren’t “supposed” to use the title socially (or in a fashion unrelated to work/their subject). So if he has a Ph.D in History and works at a historical museum, he’d be Dr. Lastname at work/work-related events, but Mr. Lastname elsewhere. If he has that same History Ph.D and works for an insurance company, he’d be Mr. Lastname at work.

          Just a fun FYI, not lecturing or correcting you. :-)

            1. Not So NewReader*

              A lot of attorneys have something that they are pointing at and snickering over. It’s almost like part of the biz. For a friend of mine, it was her car.

              1. neverjaunty*

                That’s pretty sad, but doesn’t surprise me.

                I mean that 99% of the time, putting “Esq.” or “J.D.” after your name is silly and showing off; we know you’re a lawyer, you don’t need to shout it out with “Esq.”, and pretty much all of us have J.D.’s so it’s not especially impressive.

    4. Murphy*

      That’s weird. I work in a nonacademic unit in a university, and I think everyone with PhDs puts that in their signature. People with MS degrees don’t, and so I don’t.

      1. Overly Educated*

        Yeah I was surprised by it as well. I only know ~4 people with Ph.D.s in my department. Two include it in their signature and two don’t (though they don’t have signatures at all).

    5. Stephanie*

      FirstCompany, they told us explicitly not to, saying that it could get unwieldy in correspondence. SecondCompany, people did because we did a specialized type of technical consulting, so I think it was somewhat of a marketing thing. LastCompany, no one did.

      I’m in grad school now, and professors don’t (I guess because it’s assumed that they all have PhDs). Staff in non-academic departments with PhDs will. I sometimes see classmates put “PhD candidate” in their email signature.

    6. self employed*

      Your responses within the thread make it seem like you’re determined to do it, but I think you need to be aware that some people are going to see you as pretentious. If you’re okay with that, go for it. If you prefer not to be seen that way by some, don’t. But you can’t convince all ppl not to see it as snooty. Sorry.

      1. Overly Educated*

        Fair point! I think you’re right that I need to be okay with others’ perceiving it in that way.

        1. fposte*

          From my POV, I’d assume you had a PhD, because most people here do. If you included it, I’d think you didn’t realize that everybody else had one too.

          But again, academia is kind of like the EU–despite some commonalities, localities have very individual practices.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Definitely a know your campus thing. I went to one college where you addressed people as doctor where applicable. If you got it wrong it was a huge mistake on your part.
            Years later I went to a different college and I was told, do NOT call the profs doctor, they will be insulted.
            I had no clue either way and I just tried to follow the bouncing dot.

    7. Boris*

      Where I work, people are much more likely to put Dr Ignatius Flufflelumps than Ignatious Flufflelumps, PhD. Is that an option for you?

      1. Not my normal alias*

        However, this implies that you want to be called Dr. Flufflelumps more strongly than listing it at the end, which isn’t what the OP was going for.

        1. Dangerfield*

          Unless you’re in a very hierarchical institution, I don’t think it makes a difference: you would still address Dr Ignatius Flufflelumps as Ignatius.

    8. Mongoose*

      I also work in higher-ed, non-academic capacity. I listed my degree at first because I worked in a field that was tangentially related to my grad degree (think art degree working in a university museum) and I had just graduated. Ten years and multiple jobs later, I still work in higher-ed, non-academic capacity but no longer in a field that is related to my grad degree. I don’t list it in my email signature anymore–my general sense is that people are looking at my email signature to figure out my current role and how to contact me. My advanced degree in a non-related field? Not really relevant to them at that point in time.

      1. Overly Educated*

        Makes sense. Your comment makes me realize that the fact that I’m a new grad may be driving my desire to include it -_-

    9. the_scientist*

      I think this is extremely company and industry dependent. My company (not academia, but still in research) has a email signature template that includes degrees so basically everyone here lists their degree in their signature. It actually looks more out of place to not have your degree, but that’s very specific to this environment.

      Also, as long as you’re only listing the highest degree obtained, it doesn’t have to be messy. Having fifteen different designations after your name….okay, save it for formal publications, but your highest degree earned? Meh. I don’t think it’s messy or pretentious.

      1. Academic Director*

        My university does the same thing. And credentials are specifically requested for nameplates, nametags, etc. It is specified that you can only put one in, so don’t know if that was a problem or not ;)
        I’m still getting used to having MLIS after my name everywhere here, but that’s how it’s done, so whatever.

      1. HYDR*

        I debated HBIC on my nameplate (where my academic unit practically has the alphabet behind their names….on their nameplates!)

    11. Not my normal alias*

      Personally, I find it pretentious (and saying “I worked hard for those letters” is something I find equally pretentious, as if other people didn’t work as hard or harder for other things that don’t happen to award you some letters that you can stick onto your name). Normally, in academia, everybody seems to give it a lot of importance, so I would include it. But since your department explicitly recommends against it, I would not do it. However, since it looks like you’re going to do it anyway I’d make it part of a signature block, not part of your name.

      example:

      Overly
      =======
      Overly Educated, PhD
      Department of Departmental Goodness

    12. fposte*

      This is very field and region dependent, but around here it would look naïve and, as you suggest, somewhat pretentious. Granted, I’m from the school (literally and figuratively) where you don’t use “doctor” either, but I would almost rather see Dr. whatever than PhD in somebody’s email .sig or business cards.

    13. De Minimis*

      I work in a non-profit serving the educational field. We’re also an affiliate of a major university. I think we have maybe 4-5 people with doctorates. They tend to put “Ph.D” on their e-mail signatures, but no one uses “Dr.”

      I have a CPA but don’t use it on my business cards/e-mail signatures…mainly because the license is inactive and my state requires you to state “Inactive” if you use the designation. I don’t offer professional opinions or use anything other than basic accounting [my job is more bookkeeping/general office work] so I don’t feel the need to announce it.

    14. periwinkle*

      We have an internal version of LinkedIn (for lack of a better description) and are encouraged to include our educational information there, and most employees do. It’s relatively rare to include your degree in your .sig because we have an exceptionally generous tuition benefit – I’d guess that at least a third of our professional employees have at least one MS/M.Ed/MA/MBA. However, Ph.D.s are much less common and holders usually do include it in their signatures (but not on business cards).

      It’s an org culture thing. The culture here is yes to doctorates and neutral to any other degree. I would not bat an eye at seeing “Tyrion Lannister, Ph.D.” but on the other hand I would bat a lot of eyes if he insisted people call him Dr. Lannister in a company where everyone goes by first names. If your org culture recommends no degree listing, then don’t do it.

    15. RedBlueGreenYellow*

      I made the decision not to include my Ph.D. in my signature when I started at this company, because my degree didn’t seem particularly relevant to my current field. Someone who started shortly after I did made the opposite decision, and received some ribbing for it.

      Now, several years later, there seem to be lots of people with grad degrees who include them in their email signature, but I feel weird making a change at this point.

    16. BRR*

      Like others have said, if you are in a field where it might matter more than it’s alright. I work at a humanitarian nonprofit and a lot of people of MPHs. I find it so pretentious when they list it in their name (and this is pretty universal for everybody who lists a masters in their email signature or on linkedin.

    17. Overly Educated*

      Thanks for the advice everyone. After thinking about it more I’ve decided to leave the Ph.D. out of my default signature. I think the reason I made such a big deal out of this is that I’ve done a lot of work on myself with not devaluing myself and my accomplishments, since that’s something I really struggle with. Not included it felt counter to that work I’ve done, so I think that’s why I was so resistant to it.

      I still don’t think it’s pretentious to include it, but I came to the conclusion that it’s just not really that important for my colleagues to know that I have a Ph.D. (and the ones who need to know already do because they were on my hiring committee). I also figure if there ever is a situation where I feel the need to communicate that (like if I’m emailing someone at another institution to possibly collaborate), I can always add it if needed. My business cards will have it on there since those were already ordered a few weeks ago, but at least the signature I can change now.

      1. Mander*

        I put PhD after my name sometimes, usually when I’m explicitly trying to use the tiny status boost that gives me. At my most recent company, for instance, it would make sense for certain positions because the department was applying for research funding or something like that. So if I had gotten a consultant post I applied for I probably would have added “PhD” to my signature. But in the day-to-day field work it makes absolutely no difference, because although I studied this field my actual research had nothing to do with anything I am going to encounter on a London building site so I try not to mention the PhD too much.

        Funny story about being pretentious, though: I finally decided that finishing the damn PhD was a thing to be proud of, rather than seeing it as a mark of failure because I didn’t end up pursuing the academic job I thought I wanted (and had no realistic hope of getting such a job anyway). So I called up the bank and asked if they could change my title to Dr instead of Miss so that when my next credit card came, it would say Dr.

        Well, they changed it so that my bank statements now say Dr, but when the card arrived it still said Miss. Which isn’t accurate anyway but still… I think the universe was telling me not to be so snobby!

        1. Overly Educated*

          Haha, funny. I find one of the small pleasures of earning the Ph.D. is checking “Dr.” while filling out meaningless forms asking for your salutation, like for a newsletter or credit card sign up.

          Thanks for this perspective, which is similar to where I’ve landed with my thinking. In cases where it could benefit to point out the Ph.D., like making connections to new colleagues at other schools, applying for a grant or IRB, etc., then I’ll go ahead and include it. But for everyday emails with my coworkers, it just doesn’t make as much sense to include it.

    18. Rob Lowe can't read*

      In my field, in my geographic area, a Master’s is pretty much required for my job – the only people who get hired without them are temps. Most people don’t list their degrees in their signatures because of this, so it always strikes me as really odd when people deviate from that norm. Like, yeah, I know you have an M.A., otherwise you probably wouldn’t work here.

    19. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed too, and almost everyone I know lists their graduate degrees in their signatures. It’s a sign of further education, which is obviously valued in this profession! ESPECIALLY if you get a M.Ed or Ph.D in higher education or student affairs.

    20. DragoCucina*

      I list my MLIS because of the belief that you don’t have to have college degree to be a librarian. I add my administrative certificate initials.

      I ended up adding my officer position in our state association as well. I didn’t plan to, but there was a newspaper article about the state association and I had people email, “Did you know that there is a state library association? You should get involved.” So, I ended up adding President of State Library Association. Not everyone noted it, but it helped some.

    21. vpc*

      And I read “messy” as “some people have several, and it’s kinda alphabet soup all up in here when you do that”.

      I think the number of degrees where I work averages – AVERAGES – two per person, and about eight years of post-secondary schooling. It’s not unheard of to see someone with a clinical license, two master’s degrees, a PhD or medical degree, and a prestigious title after their name in their email signature.

    22. Overeducated*

      Hi name twin! I feel your ambivalence, oh how I do.

      I just put “Ph.D.” in my email signature block for the first time, a year and a half after graduating. I always thought it seemed arrogant and unnecessary, but it actually seems to be the norm in my new organization. (I recently started a new job outside of academia, doing communication related to my subject matter field.) I have noticed that the people in my division all include their PhDs, professional certifications, and licenses as applicable. I added mine because I have noticed that since I look young and my title is weird and new, people sometimes are not sure whether to interact with me as a subject matter expert, college intern, or support person. I don’t have the nerve to say in person “yeah I know how this works, I have a PhD in it” when someone clearly thinks I am a 21 year old with a communications degree instead but it really does change the way people talk and interact with me. And how seriously people take me, or how technical they get with me, actually does affect how I can do my job.

    23. Anion*

      The reason not to include them is that you’ve been told your department prefers that you not do so.

  18. Kate*

    I have been job hunting for almost a year at this point. Just last week I was offered a nice, part-time (30 hrs/wk for 9 months of the year) job that is a step in the direction I want to be going in. It isn’t the perfect job, but it wouldn’t be a bad start. Then just this week I was invited to interview for an excellent permanent, full-time position at a much higher level! Of course I know an interview isn’t a job offer but I am not sure how to proceed. I haven’t signed anything for the part-time job yet, but probably will have to soon. But the great permanent, full-time position will not be decided for two weeks or so. What should I do? I would be moderately happy with the part-time job but the full-time spot would be a great beginning to my career. How should I handle this situation?

    1. JLK in the ATX*

      Sometimes the hiring timeline quotes goes awry and you might not hear anything in the quoted two weeks. Then what? You can’t keep the current offer on the table until something better comes along. It’s acceptable that an offer can be considered for a week, but you should consult the offering party as to when they would ideally like to have a response. Odds are they want it sooner rather than later.

      If you can do the 9-mos gig and get the most out of it, then do it and use that as a stepping stone to your next opportunity. If you’re willing to give up the 9-mos gig to wait out the better possible opportunity then do that.

    2. Fawn*

      I was in a very similar situation a couple of months ago – offered an OK job that sort of fit my needs, but invited to interview for a much better job in every way that would exactly fit my needs. I asked myself two questions:

      1. Would I be okay in exactly the same position if I don’t get offered Job 2? Yes – I want to move on, but it’s not urgent.

      2. Am I okay with burning the bridge at Job 1 (i.e., accepting the offer for Job 1 and recinding my acceptance if offered Job 2)? No – I’ll likely be applying at this org in the future, so I need my rep to be in good shape.

      I took a gamble, turned down Job 1 (and was transparent with them about the reason, which left that professional relationship in great shape), and was not offered Job 2. And I’m fine with that – the offer was the ego boost I needed to stay motivated in my job search, and I feel like I handled the situation in a way that was true to my values.

  19. HeyNonnyNonny*

    So back when I started my new job, it was a time of chaos and I had a really rough onboarding. Part of that was my hire was never acknowledged in a company-wide email, which is the norm here. Since then, every time I see a new welcome email, I still feel a little left out. So I’m writing my own, right here.

    I’d like to welcome our new hire, HeyNonnyNonny, to The Department of Teapots as our new Technical Potter. Nonny has been working with us for years already as a contractor, and we are excited to welcome her as a regular employee. Nonny earned her Master’s in Spout Style in Funtown, and a bachelor’s in Teapots and Teacups in Chillaxburg. She currently lives in Crabbypants, and enjoys hanging out with her dog and traveling. Let’s welcome Nonny to the team!

    There. I feel better.

    3. Girasol*

      Congratulations and welcome to wherever you are! I was always hired or promoted in the month that work was so crazy that niceties like welcomes (and cakes!) were skipped just this once. Even when you understand it’s disappointing. So I’m sending virtual cake with sprinkles.

    4. Same Here*

      I hear ya. For one reason or another, this has happened to me with both my promotions/title bumps in the last five years. Oh well.

      Congrats!

    6. Snazzy Hat*

      1) Congratulations! I must add, that is a lovely welcoming e-mail.
      2) OldJob made a big deal of Associate Appreciation Day. Full-time employees had a half-day of work followed by festivities. Temps had a half-day of work followed by “see you monday!”
      3) Woo! Go Chillaxburg Couches! :-D

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Aw, thanks.

        So my husband went to a certain university that was known for burning couches on game days, and literally has a college T with a couch on it! I feel compelled to dig it up now…

        1. Sami*

          You mean the the university that will probably burn couches tomorrow after the khaki coach leaves town? My sister lives there and attended that U.

    7. AnotherAdmin*

      That would totally bother me too. I would tell myself that it was unintentional and no one meant anything bad by it, but it would still bug.

      So congratulations to you on your new position, and that is a very nice announcement email! :)

  20. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    I haven’t been around much lately, but for a good reason! I’m enjoying my new job, it has a great mix of challenge and familiarity, the commute is 4 minutes, and there’s a lot of opportunity for me to move into other areas after my contract is up.

    The difficult part for me is navigating the office relationship structures. Some of my coworkers find others really distasteful, and some are inveterate complainers, so mostly I’ve been trying to keep my head down and stay out of anything. Which means that some of the complainers tell me “you’re so quiet!” Or “you’re always in your office!” Yes…working….!

    I’ve also had multiple coworkers tell me “God, you look exhausted!” when I actually thought I looked pretty good, so that was demoralizing. But other than that, it’s great!

    1. Camellia*

      Looking exhausted- do you wear makeup? Different lighting affects your appearance, and ‘standard office lighting’ can vary based on the age of the bulbs. Just check in a small discrete mirror and tweak as needed.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        I do wear makeup and check in a few different mirrors before I leave home, as well as when I get to work. I just have genetic dark circles under my eyes that no concealer short of Hollywood can defeat, but most people are kind enough not to comment on them. :(

        1. neverjaunty*

          Assuming you’ve already ruled out stuff like iron or Vitamin D deficiencies, maybe try something like Touche Eclat, which doesn’t really conceal dark circles but offsets them a little with different tones? As a pasty person who can look like a raccoon if I miss sleep, I feel your pain.

        2. Tris Prior*

          I have the same issue and I HATE it when people tell me how tired I look! No one should EVER say that to another person, unless they are going to follow it with “so why don’t you put your feet up while I take care of X” or “so why don’t you take off the rest of the day with pay.”

          Honestly, I think it’s worse when people mistake my very dark circles for black eyes and very carefully ask me if there are problems at home. :/

    2. Product person*

      Congratulations, and it’s great that you got a good commute and lots of opportunities in your new job, Former Diet Coke Addict!

      As an introvert who’d prefer to keep my head down and just work, I’m going to offer you some advice: try to invite small groups for lunch or coffee from time to time (keeping the coworkers who don’t get along very well separated, of course). You can try to be friendly with everyone, and focus on change the subject with the inveterate complainers. I promise you that trying to build relationships with everybody, without taking sides (which I know you wouldn’t do) will become very useful throughout your tenure with the company.

      It took me a long time to accept that my theory that “doing a great job is what matters, and being task-oriented (as opposed to people-oriented) is no big deal” is actually wrong. It turns out that people are never 100% rational, and we need to take care of the emotional side as well. You don’t need to become BFFs with anyone, but learning the names of the kids of the coworker who loves to talk about them, the hobby another colleague is passionate about, etc., will help you have more meaningful “small talk” with people and develop relationships that will help you down the road when you need their support for an idea, or their help with information required to do your job, etc.

      I learned that it doesn’t take me a lot of time to nurture those relationship– just a few minutes a couple of times a week will do. I’ll make a point to ask about the topic of interest of a colleague when we’re both getting coffee in the kitchen, and once a month invite a small group to go to a restaurant nearby I know they like, or accept an invitation to join another group for lunch (even though I’d much prefer to eat alone with a book).

      Interacting with colleagues in a more personal way helps us build relationships that actually end up improving the quality of our work, so I suggest you give it a try !

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Pure gold advice right there, FDCA.

        I blew it at one job, I kept my head down. Ugh. It was the best paying job I had ever had at that point in my life. People were nice, etc. There were a couple of bullies. Looking back on it, if I had hung out with others more the bullies probably would have left me alone. But that was not my main problem. I was temp. And when it came time to let me go, they never called me back.
        Never underestimate the power of being liked. I am not even saying WELL liked, just get to know them and get to know what they are good at. Give everyone a similar level of interest.

  21. AdAgencyChick*

    Speedy recovery Alison!

    Have any of you been in a situation where your boss is on a leave of absence with no replacement, and you’re the primary coverage? I’m in this situation right now, and although it’s not the worst thing ever — at least my boss specifically chose her leave to be in a not-super-busy period — it is causing a bit of a headache for me. There are a couple of high-profile projects that either I or she might work on if we were both here; since she’s not here, they’re mine, and if *I* need some time off, I have to arrange coverage with one of my direct reports, none of whom is experienced enough that it’s really fair to them to ask them to do anything substantive on the project.

    I’m trying to arrange my days off so that my direct reports don’t have very much to do when I’m out, but this is advertising — inevitably schedules change, and I’ve just been asked by a colleague whether I can be available on certain days that I had planned to take off. (I said no, and am trying to work with him so that most of the substantive questions come in on days I’m here.)

    I don’t want to just delay taking any time off until my boss returns (and she fully supports me on that). I guess I could just be more flexible and not plan days off in advance, but there *are* some specific days I really want to take (including the one mentioned above), and honestly I’m a person who just likes to plan ahead.

    WWYD? (Or, what *have* you done in this situation?) And I know it could be a lot worse — like I said, my boss could have taken leave during an even busier period, and at least it’s only a few weeks, not months on end.

    1. EEK! The Manager*

      I was in this situation last year when my boss went on maternity leave and I was covering for her. I had also planned my wedding and honeymoon for the time she was out on leave! Not ideal but life happens like that!

      In this case, I was able to shift some of the responsibilities to my boss’ boss, who I was temporarily reporting to and has a vastly different role than I. Other things just had to be placed on hold. I took 11 days off and nothing fell apart while I was gone. Not sure if that is something you are able to do, but that’s where I’d start, especially considering you are just trying to take a few days off here and there.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        I wish I could! Unfortunately the next level up from my boss is a senior exec who doesn’t actually have the departmental expertise to cover for me, so I’m juggling as best I can.

    2. Jules the First*

      Welcome to my life!

      Remember that planned absences are much less stressful than unplanned ones (so, for example, it’s important that you take your planned time off so that you relax and recharge and don’t end up taking unplanned sick time); try and coordinate with colleagues who may have overlapping skills (so while no one overlaps me exactly, Lucy can pitch in if you need something reviewed for coherence; Kate’s a good choice if you need to talk an issue through; Tom is your guy if you need to decode a client brief; Solomon can make x, y, and z kinds of decisions on our behalf); and then if you do all of that and they still need you, sometimes its better to take the day off and spend 30 minutes knocking out answers or calling into a conference call, especially if the alternative is not taking time off.

    3. Product person*

      I was in a similar situation once, and what I did was to avoid taking days off during the period I was covering for my boss, especially when I knew that would create problems for my employer (such as lower quality work delivered to an important client, delays in delivery that would cause client dissatisfaction, etc.). But I also made sure to (respectfully and in a non-demanding way) make it clear to the company owner the sacrifice I was making, and that I expected this to be a temporary thing, because I very much value my earned vacation time and would not be willing to keep inconveniencing my personal life for very long.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Can you stuff the pipeline?
      Project requires A, B, C and D. You are the only person who can do C. Can you prep C so that someone else can just finish it off? Can you do C in advance and let them do A, B and D while you are out?

      Can a person be trained to do C? There were times where I paired people up, I trained two people so that they would be able to bounce stuff off each other in my absence. This worked very well.

      Take a look at your work week. Maybe the busyness levels seem random but you might notice patterns. One place I worked, Fridays fell apart. Everyone was too tired to push on Fridays. A different place had the worst Fridays imaginable but Mondays ran at a snail’s pace.

    5. lfi*

      yes, this happened to me earlier this year. since i technically didn’t have anyone under me (almost more of a coaching situation since they were new and i was already in the position), i went to boss’s boss and asked about the time off. she looked at me like i had two heads and said as long as i had the time i should (and could) go.

      that being said… i did get messaged 3 out of the 5 workdays that i was gone. i left behind notes, concise instructions, and tried to lay out a good foundation, but sometimes stuff just happens.

      i say document as much as you can, do what you need to do prior to your time off, and have a backup for them to go to.

    6. Cap Hiller*

      If it’s only a few weeks, I would delay time off unless it’s really necessary but set clear expectations about what you’re able to accomplish being down a person. I’ve been on both sides of the maternity leave position, which is months, and the biggest challenge was setting up the expectation that you cannot literally accomplish the same as before being doing a person. But, I think it would be a good team player if you to avoid unnecessary time off so you can more easily set this expectation

  22. Audiophile*

    I want to know if anyone else encountered this before.

    I was submitting an application for a very large finance company and on the self-identification form it asked for my sexual orientation and whether I identified as transgender.

    I can’t remember ever seeing this before and as someone with many LGBTQ friends, it definitely caught my attention and made me a little uncomfortable.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      I’m assuming they’re trying to demonstrate to someone that they’re inclusive and actively recruiting members of traditionally underrepresented communities. I also assume that this is the voluntary self-report, and you’re not obligated to include that information at all.

    2. JMegan*

      This is pretty common in government. Usually the goal is to measure diversity in their applicant pool, not to identify you as an individual. So the responses *should* be reported in aggregate, and should *not* be associated with anyone’s name, and there should DEFINITELY be some language on the form saying all that. If there isn’t, you can call their HR department and ask why they’re collecting the info and how it will be used.

      That said, if you’re uncomfortable filling out that field, then just leave it blank. It’s not a hiring qualification in any way, especially for a large finance company – you can bet they’re pretty big on following rules and procedures, especially around personal privacy!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      That sounds like a lot of legal trouble waiting to happen. I’m hoping it’s actually well-intentioned (we’re accepting of all orientations and identifications!) but misguided.

      1. Bob Barker*

        Yeah, this came up in the NFL, of all places — before the draft in I think 2013, the NFL sat down with various college students and started “confidentially” asking them if they were gay, in a nice way, because I guess the execs wanted to have a media strategy in place if anyone volunteered to be poster boy. Well, somebody gossipped about the fact they were doing this, even with the best of intentions, and the Attorney General of the state of New York wrote them a stiff “don’t you bleeping dare” letter.

        It was funny, because, yeah, for once I do think the NFL had good intentions! But it’s still a big no-no, in New York anyway.

    4. Pwyll*

      Was it added to the usual EEO disclosure? (That asks about your race, gender and disability status?) It should have indicated that responses are anonymous and only used in aggregate to track their compliance with minority outreach programs.

    5. Aurion*

      Given the spectrum of orientations, even if this was done with the best of intentions as other commentors have suggested, I would be extremely skeptical that they’ve covered the breadth of orientations. And if they didn’t, well, that’s worse than if they never brought it up in the first place.

    6. Blue Anne*

      This is very standard in the UK. Almost all jobs have equality monitoring and this is one of the areas on the questionnaire. Most of my straight dude friends have had my “you need to fill that in too otherwise it looks to them like they’re only interviewing minorities and if there’s actually a problem they won’t know” rant.

      Coming back the the USA and not being asked this question on applications has been weird.

    7. Jordan*

      I would not feel comfortable filling that out, as someone working through their own gender identity. Waaay too personal, even if it is an attempt at ensuring diverse hires.

  23. T3k*

    How does one ask about weather related absences in an interview or on acceptance of a job? I applied to a job in my alma mater’s town, and remembered that every winter, there’s at least a week if not more that caused transportation in the area to shut down (one year they actually had to cancel the last few days of the exam period because they had such a bad snowstorm, everyone still there was stuck for a week). To make matters worse, I don’t have a vehicle that can go up and down steep mountain roads when covered in ice. So, if by some strange luck I get an interview with them, or another place that has bad winter weather, how do I address the weather policy and when?

    1. Dawn*

      Every place I’ve ever lived that has predictable bad weather in the winter has had a good weather policy in place, so first of all don’t worry too much about it! I would bring it up at the offer stage, as an “aside” kind of question- “Oh, by the way, I know that y’all get terrible winter weather, what’s the office’s winter weather policy?” Most of the time it’s going to be something like they’ll close if the University is closed, or if the county government is closed. My last job had a *great* system of saying they were closed if the county government was closed, so it was super easy to wake up and see if you had to go to work or not. Of course they also had a clause in there that if the government was open but you didn’t feel safe coming to work it was fine to work from home with prior manager approval.

      1. CheeryO*

        Hopefully my office is the exception, but I live in a very snowy city, and we don’t have any guidance or policies relating to winter weather. If the office is closed (which only happens during incredibly bad blizzards, maybe once per decade or so), you better hope the phone tree gets to you, because they don’t announce it anywhere.

        I imagine it’s different in areas where wintry weather is rare or limited to a couple weeks per year, but the bar for “I didn’t feel safe driving this morning” is pretty darn high here. If that means you have to buy snow tires or a car with 4WD, that’s just what you have to do, and if someone asked about weather-related absences, they’d probably get a bit of side-eye. (We also don’t have very good public transportation, so that’s probably a factor – most people have pretty good winter weather driving skills.)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Same here. Exjob was only shut for one day after the 2007 epic ice storm (and we all got paid for that day). But we didn’t even close the office after we got hit by a tornado!

    2. Not my normal alias*

      Since you’ve lived there before, it would be natural to say “I remember back when I was here, how the roads get in bad weather. How does that impact your organization?”

  24. Jo Riley*

    I had a first-round interview yesterday that went really well, though it was a bit odd in that it was with the rest of the admin team rather than the hiring manager. Today they want me to come back in to meet with two of the directors of the department, one of whom would be my direct supervisor.

    The admin team answered most of my questions about the position itself and gave me a fairly good idea of what the office culture is like. What questions do you all like to ask your potential supervisors? What should I be on the lookout for? This is my first “real” round of interviews, since it was just a formality at my current job (I had worked here as a college student) and the management structure where I am now is pretty informal.

    1. Frankie Seeks Job*

      Maybe you can ask if you have an assigned buddy / mentor in your new company – not just to train you in the work, but to show you where the printer is, how to book the meeting rooms or how to submit medical claims… stuff like that.

    2. Newish Reader*

      Don’t hesitate to ask some of the same questions you asked the admin team. It could be helpful to see if the directors have the same perspective as the admin team on key issues you wondered about.

  25. Lucie in the Sky*

    How to you balance a job you hate and a boss you actually like? My boss is super chill with rules / no problems leaving for the doctor or other appointment like other jobs I’ve been at — or even just to beat traffic on a Friday – or not worried about a sick day or working from home if needed (This is not the norm in my industry) I love my team at my location — but I am always getting yelled at and talked down to — by men with less experience then me (who are 15-20 years older then me) at our other locations. I’m growing extremely frustrated and getting yelled at 2-3 times a day. Last time we had a meeting with these people in person — by boss was supposed to speak but he didn’t (he’s an expat and recent to the US and not a great English speaker) so I had to do all the defending and pushing for my department. He apologized afterwords for not being helpful in the meeting but I feel so frustrated….

    1. Raine*

      Well I suppose my question is in two parts:

      – How often do you have to go to the other locations to do business and
      – Are these visits scheduled well in advance so that you know when they’re coming or do they tend to be something of a surprise

      Because if the visits are infrequent (say maybe 30% of a working year) and you have advanced warning then what I would do is try and schedule something you enjoy before, after, or during. Go to a favorite restaurant, book a massage, get a manicure, schedule a hair appointment, or whatever self care ritual helps you unwind after a stressful day. This works on two levels. The obvious one is that the enjoyable thing helps cancel out the stress of dealing with a bunch of children in suits. The other side of it is that having something to look forward to that you know will make you feel better helps you get through the stressful thing. “If I can make it two more hours I’m going to go home and enjoy that new bath bomb” was incredibly helpful when I was trying to survive holiday retail working hell.

      However if dealing with screaming children in suits is closer to 70% of your job, or you can’t plan things around them easily, then it might be worth bringing up to your boss just how demoralizing it can be to wrestle with these people and ask if they have any suggestions about minimizing the impact they have on your ability to do your job effectively.

    2. Becca*

      You have some very hostile coworkers! (Perhaps not legally hostile, but colloquially for sure.) I’m sorry you have to deal with this. Depending on what level these men are at, could you or your manager (presumably your manager) tell them to stop yelling at you? Or get in touch with their manager(s) about their behavior?

      Your manager sounds like a very good person in terms of benefits and flexibility, but part of managing is supporting your staff! I’m sorry he’s not stepping up to the plate for you and the rest of your team :/ I hope he exerts himself more in the future. You sound like a really dedicated employee— and even if you weren’t, you deserve respect from every level. Good luck.

    3. neverjaunty*

      Your boss may be super chill about the day to day, but he is not a good boss. He should not be allowing you to get yelled at 2-3 times a day (!!!!!!) and leaving you to advocate for the department. Lots of jobs have super-chill bosses but aren’t horrible in all other respects.

      1. catsAreCool*

        Yeah, unless part of the job is getting yelled at (which sounds awful), he shouldn’t be allowing this.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh.
      Well you have to weigh out what is of the most value to you. It sounds like your boss has no plan on changing. I would ask myself, “Three years from now, am I happy I stayed or am I kicking myself?”

      I think I would keep an eye open to see what else is available. The take-away on this one is that your next boss has to be able to handle these verbal assaults as that seems to be part of the territory.

  26. Lady Blerd*

    Dear busybody:

    Yes I wear my earphones to listen to podcasts and music on my cell while I work, at my desk, in the corner cubicle that barely no one passes by other then the cleaning technician. At least I am not walking around the office with it on.

    Yours in Cthulhu,

    Lady Blerd

  27. Anon Today...*

    I am so super beyond bummed out. I was in the running for a great job at my current company (which would take me from part time to full time), and I found out today that I didn’t get it :-(

    Vent –
    I graduated college in 2008 (great right). In that time, I’ve only actually been employed full time for a little over a year. Other than that, I have cobbled together part time jobs (most of the time, multiple part time jobs at a time) in order to make a living. Everyone says I’m bright, capable, hard working. In the positions I’ve had, I’ve excelled for the most part, but I can never seem to make it over the hurdle into a “real” full-time benefits included job. When I got off the phone with the manager who told me I didn’t get it, I literally broke into sobs. I have given this company so much effort over the last 4 years as a part-timer. I have volunteered for extra projects, gone above and beyond, made myself available for extra assignments and in general have been a rock star (not my words, I have been told that by other members of management).

    Why is it that I cannot catch a break no matter what I do? /vent

    1. Central Perk Regular*

      I have been in your position and it is so difficult. I graduated a couple of years before you, so I’ve been dealing with a lot of the same things you have.

      It’s heartbreaking to give yourself to a job that doesn’t seem to “love” you back. I had a job that I was so passionate about and got laid off from a few years back. It devastated me. A few weeks later, I got an even better job – with a big pay raise! It didn’t take away the hurt from losing my passion job, but it sure did help. And you know what – I’m a better professional, coworker, and (in general) person since getting laid off.

      Someone really smart once told me that with every “no” you hear, you are one step closer to hearing “yes.” It’s so true. Keep beating the drum, especially on days you don’t feel like it, and I PROMISE YOU – you will hear that “yes.”

      2. Amadeo*

        This. I also graduated with my first bachelors in 2008 and finding a full time job was hell. I found one in May 2009, for 9.50 an hour asking for the degree I’d studied for. I think I must have stared at the hiring manager like he’d grown a second head for a moment because he asked me if I had a question, but I took the job. The benefits weren’t bad but they weren’t great either and I had managed to move up almost a dollar an hour before I left three years later. Then a two year stint at a local printing company that blessedly did give me plenty of raises, but no benefits. The third was at a local university, another minuscule step up salary-wise, but much better benefits.

        And finally. FINALLY this past June I accepted a job at another university and at 36 years old for the first time in my life broke the $30k a year ceiling I thought I’d never get through. I can now think about getting the hell out of my parents’ house again because I can pay my loans (student and vehicle) and I have enough left over for bills and rent or a house payment and savings. It took forever and my metaphorical nails are split and bloody from clawing my way there. I feel your pain Anon, I really do.

    2. Fabulous*

      That sucks. As a 2007 college graduate, I totally feel your pain. Of the two permanent full-time jobs I’ve lucked into in the meantime, they’ve come with no (or substandard) benefits, so you’re not missing out on a ton. Have you looked into temp agencies? That’s how I’ve stayed employed full-time through the years, and temp-to-hire jobs are a great starting place.

    3. Jennifer*

      Beats me, but I’ve been there and done that, and I’m sorry it’s happening to you. There’s nothing like the “Why wasn’t I perfect enough?” feeling.

      1. Anon Today...*

        Yeah, that feeling sucks, and also feeling like I’m wasting my time continuing to work for them, but I need a job, so I guess I have to take what they give me unless/until I find something better. :-(

    4. T3k*

      I graduated in 2013, but I can say, it has not gotten any better since then :( I’ve only held 2 jobs since graduating, only one was full time, both paid so little it was depressing, and no benefits. Oh, and the fun part? After struggling for a year to get the first job, got laid off 7 months in. Yep, I cried, a lot (not there, pretended I was ok with it, then cried when I got home).

    5. Lady Dedlock*

      As a fellow 2008 grad, I offer you my sympathies. Just remember that it’s not you, it’s the economy.

    9. Blue Swan*

      This sucks, I’m sorry. I know several people that have experienced the same situation. As an outside observer, you may want to look at your presentation and interpersonal skills.

      In each case, the “rockstar” part-timers/interns were repeatedly turned down for full-time jobs because while they did great work, they didn’t understand office norms and some basics of professional behavior and offended the wrong people.

      1. Jean*

        More sympathies from someone walking a similar path–not as a recent graduate, but as someone laid off early in the Recession Era. As a friend of mine reminds me, many well-qualified people are having a very hard time finding full-time employment.

        Hang in there! Despite the enormously frustration it’s grimly satisfying to be able to follow one’s (penny-pinching) path with dignity. You’re not alone in the struggle and your economic/professional situation does not define your worth as a human being.

        Grieve in private. Get enough sleep and exercise and as much good nutrition as possible. (It’s harder but not utterly impossible on a limited income.) Find and follow inexpensive or free ways to rejuvenate your spirit: go to the library, take walks in pleasant-looking public spaces, hang with good friends, volunteer to help others, stay connected with a cause or a congregation if that works for you. And keep going, because in the end, what other choice do all of us have?

    10. Not So NewReader*

      At one point, I had this job that I LOVED. It was the job of my life time. I spent eight years at that place waiting for my slice of the pie. Eight years. Am I scaring you? I hope so. It was a super huge mistake for me to wait that long. Finally I left. I had a 9 week long migraine, my grief over that job ran so deep.

      Lessons learned:
      Don’t do this.
      Don’t value the job so much that you can’t see what is going on.
      Too late I found out that other employers would hire me just because I worked for Joe. “If you worked for Joe, then I definitely want you to work here!”
      Don’t do projects and take on extra *for a company*, do it for your own professional growth, do it because it seems like the right thing to do, but do not do it for a company. Why. Because doing it for a company can cause us to expect something in return and if that something does not happen, it hurts oh-so-much. (9 week migraine, for example)

      Where ever you work you will continue to be bright, capable and hard working. Look around, where else can you take your skills? Ask a friend if you are having trouble with this question.

      You will catch a break. But my guess is not at this place. Think of this as your last year at this place and start looking around in all seriousness.

    11. Jean*

      Oops! I meant to reply directly to Anon Today… but nested my answer beneath the comments of Central Perk Regular.

  28. Central Perk Regular*

    Some good news to share on a Friday…

    Earlier this week, we had a team emergency – my coworker (Jane) had a special event planned that she had to be there for. Her child was sick and couldn’t go to day care. I ended up having to go and take care of her child – yes, I had to babysit. All of her back-up caregivers were either sick or out of town. (Note: my role has nothing to do with child care and I’m not in an entry-level position.) But needless to say, we got through it.

    I’ve had to help this coworker a lot in the past year (filling in for her at her special events) because of childcare issues or her vacation. What really makes me upset is that there is a complete disregard for my work and my deadlines on Jane’s end. Every month for the past four or five months, Jane gets in a jam and calls me to bail her out. I don’t mind helping out once in awhile, but it’s quickly becoming a pattern.

    I finally got the courage to talk to our manager about the situation. Our manager is not local, so he doesn’t realize the extent of how much it’s happening. I kept it very factual and told him about the pattern. He point blank asked if I wanted to continue to be Jane’s “backup” and I said no and that I would like to opt out of this responsibility. To my surprise, Manager said he understood and would find someone else to be Jane’s permanent backup.

    I can’t tell you all how relieved I am to be rid of this!

    3. Lily in NYC*

      You handled this so much more maturely than I did ages ago. I always got kids dumped on me during periods when school was out, and I got so sick of it that I started letting the kids run wild. They were little maniacs. One of the moms got pissed that her kid was pretending his finger was a gun and told me that I had to stop them from “play shooting” and to keep them calm. I replied “if you wanted this done your way then you should have gotten a babysitter” – she gave me a death stare but I didn’t budge. And I made sure to schedule a vacation day for the next time school was out. My boss called me at home begging me to come in and I never answered (this was before cell phones). She complained the next day and I told her that my babysitting days were over (I knew I was about to transfer to a different dept. so I wasn’t worried about her reaction). Telling her that I got promoted and was leaving her to go work for her arch-rival was one of my favorite days ever.

      2. michelenyc*

        That is awesome. Every job I have had I make it pretty clear from the get go I do not like kids so I have never had to experience the hell of watching a co-workers/bosses little piece of sunshine.

      5. Raven*

        I was an office manager in a previous life and occasionally would get asked by my GM to watch his daughter. Never was a problem. She would sit in his office and watch movies on his computer the entire time. Super well behaved little girl.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Perfect. No way in hell would I watch someone else’s kids. Put on your no-way-in-hell vibe and keep it on. There are lots of things I am willing to do, heck I will drive the boss to the grocery store and all kinds of little things like that. But I will not watch their kids for the reasons shown here. nope, nope.

  29. AnotherAnony*

    Any librarians out there? I was in a special library and am trying to get back into a public library in the Reference department, but it’s tough. They don’t like my special library experience. I know it’s a tough field, but it’s making me feel down.

    1. DragoCucina*

      May I ask what type of special library? I love niche knowledge that can round out the staff.

      1. AnotherAnony*

        Veterinary, then I was in a corporate library handling records. (The public libraries don’t seem to be happy with the records work. One interviewer who was the library director scoffed at it.)

        1. DragoCucina*

          Odd, but one of my issues is the number of theory X managers who are library directors. Mix in their OCD traits and sometimes they don’t think outside the box well. I would think record=attention to detail. That’s essential for me. With our farming community I would love someone who has worked connected with veterinary services. We work a lot with the Extension office. What I’m trying to say is there is a place and it’s how you market your experience.

          1. bibliovore*

            Public library is all about community and customer service. Crappy schedules- evenings, weekends. All kinds of people. Patience and thinking on your feet are important. Understanding public policy. Popular culture and wide knowledge are essential for a public librarian.

            1. DragoCucina*

              True. Policy, service, and attention to detail are intertwined. We have to be reliable. If we say we are reliable in checking materials in and out that means we have to pay attention. It’s good to have a pleasant conversation with the patron, but if it’s getting in the way of attention to detail then its interfering with service. Wide knowledge is good. But, having a wide representation of knowledge is also good. The reference people with the solid knowledge of music, genealogy, etc., all provide ssential service. Working in a library is like being on a sports team. Everyone should be playing to their strengths.

  30. Jules the First*

    Soooooo…an offer finally landed in my inbox this week, and (barring huge scaries in the contrct) I’m planning to say yes on Monday.

    My question is this – which is better: resigning by email to my official boss (who will be abroad setting up a new office – he won’t be available by phone but will be reading email) or resigning face to face to either my dotted-line boss or to HR, with a follow-up note to my boss?

    And would your advice be different knowing that Monday is going to be an emotionally fraught day for reasons entirely unrelated to my departure?

    (And Alison – you have my sincere sympathies! A few years ago, I had complete laryngitis for three weeks…it was hell!)

    1. Pwyll*

      Is dotted line boss a temporary supervisor while your boss is away, or just a senior-level person you coordinate with? If the former, draft your resignation letter to your actual boss, resign to dotted-line in person, then immediately go back and hit send. If the latter, I’d only resign to your boss.

      I’m pretty sure Alison had an article about this in the past, but I’d be sure to specifically mention in the e-mail that you would have preferred to do this in person or over the phone, but that you wanted to give him as much time as possible in advance and that meant not waiting until he returns.

      1. Jules the First*

        My official boss has very little to do with my day to day work – he signs off on hires for my team, and approves holiday etc, and will use his influence in other parts of the business at our request if they are ignoring us. My dotted line option has no official authority over me, but he is the one who oversees my professional development and is responsible for the overall quality of my team’s work (in the sense that he will be the one chewed out by the partners if one of our projects is a huge flop). Neither one of them assigns work – we are internal consultants to the rest of the business and I manage my own workload.

  31. AndersonDarling*

    A friend is applying at a store where she knows the manager. It’s a national retail chain. She did the application, and a “personality assessment” where the questions were very vague: Would you rather be known as compassionate or dependable? Is it more important to be on time or be honest?
    I didn’t think that anyone made hiring decisions from these assessments unless you answered that you like to fight with co-workers and steal from your employer. But the manager called and said she didn’t do well enough on the assessment and to try it again.
    What they heck could they be looking for? It’s just a customer service position, not store manager. It makes me wonder how many great candidates are thrown out of the running because they randomly answered a wishy-washy question incorrectly.

    1. Further Anon*

      So I know one of the leading Industrial Psychologists in the field, who works on some of these quizzes. Stores can tweak what they’re looking for– for example, wanting people to be more salesy vs less, so it could be that the friend didn’t fit the company’s ‘ideal’ candidate profile.

      And you’d be surprised at how many people do check blatantly ‘wrong’ things, like responding to a retail job by saying ‘It’s OK to give all my friends the employee discount’ or ‘It doesn’t matter what time I show up to work as long as I get clocked in on time’– though since the manager said to try again it doesn’t sound like your friend chose any answer that would instantly disqualify her like these.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        She said there were a few “I want to be the center of attention” questions that didn’t sounds like a good answer because everyone should be a team player. But we are thinking that they may be interpreting “center of attention” to mean a good leader.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I bet it wasn’t that question that got her negged- my guess is that they want a “no” answer on those types of questions. Those tests are ridiculous and leave no room for grey areas. You are supposed to answer like a robot who doesn’t understand nuance.

        2. Further Anon*

          Yeah, it can mean leader or maybe they want someone more outgoing for sales.

          Fun story: a while back, there were two national competing chains of Teapot Delivery Systems. They both did the same thing. They both acquired the same test for employee screening. But due to each company having different goals, the “right” answer was actually significantly different between the two!

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      My husband used to work for a retail chain that used this type of test, and he said it was ridiculous how many otherwise excellent candidates – for a basic store associate position – didn’t move forward because they “failed” the assessment. So dumb.

    3. Sunflower*

      I applied for a job at Chili’s in college and was not hired because I didn’t pass one of these. I also have a hospitality degree! I have no idea where I went wrong but I became a server at many other restaurants and did not have any issues and like to think I was pretty good at it.

    4. Bad Candidate*

      I think that’s the Predictive Index. And I don’t know what my answers are saying about me, but clearly it’s “Do not hire her” because if I have to do that thing, then game over.

    5. Cam*

      My husband had to do one of those recently but with a twist. He had to rank a bunch of “activities” from best to worst and they ranged from volunteering and helping a coworker to mass murder and slavery (no joke!) We debated for a while but decided that slavery was worse than mass murder, since mass murder was more of a one time event, but institutionalized slavery screwed over generations and generations of people and still impacts race relations today (in the US at least). He didn’t make it to the second stage.

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        What on earth?!

        I had to take one of these that was ridiculously long. I still remember one of the questions was, “Do you find it amusing when someone is startled by a loud noise?”

    6. zora*

      There was a Planet Money podcast episode about these tests for large corporations like call centers. You might want to check it out, it was very interesting.

      Not that I like these or am defending them, but after extensive data collection, they have figured out what answers correlate with top-performers for the particular job they are hiring for. And the vague questions are actually the most important in their perspective, because they make it impossible to game the test by answering what you think they want you to say.

      I would commiserate with your friend, because it really sucks to be rejected for something so out of your control, but urge her to try to let it go. It’s not that there is anything wrong with her, and who knows what they are looking for, but if she had gotten the job, she might have found she hated it because they expect people to act a totally different way than she is comfortable with. She might want to focus on smaller retail businesses that don’t use these massive data systems to decide on hires.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I don’t know a whole lot about these tests or what answers are good ones (according to the people who designed them). But I do think a lot of these tests discriminate against introverts.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I took one of these when they were called honesty tests. I failed. Months later I learned that was a good thing. Several years later the company went belly up.

      But it asked things like do you trust police officers? Is taking a pencil from work stealing? etc.

      The honesty test had a huge flaw. The control group was a group of white males. The court had a field day with that one.

      If your friend knows the name of the test maker, she might be able to find some stuff out online.

      I took a personality test a while ago, evidently I not only lack honesty but I also lack personality because I think I failed. But they are not allowed to tell me if I failed.

      I will say those who commented that they were looking for certain personality traits are probably right. One place I worked for a while and they implemented these personality tests. I have no clue what was wrong with the tests but they started making the worst hiring decisions after they decided to rely on the tests. Yes, they do rely on them. If you do not pass you do not get the job. snark/ NICE/snark.

    9. Anion*

      I took one of those tests once. (I did really well, because my manager-to-be and a friend both told me, basically what they were looking for.) The only thing I really remember is being warned that they ask questions designed to catch you out; like, one question will be “Have you ever stolen anything from work,” and then later they’ll ask what the biggest thing you’ve ever stolen from work is. That’s an obvious one, but there were a few others that were sneakier. So be careful of that.

      It helps me with things like that to pretend I’m a different person when taking the test, lol. Like I’m Ideal Employee answering them. Ideal Employee is an enthusiastic team player who loves serving customers and always does what she’s told. :-)

  32. Lauren*

    I have been waiting for open thread all week! The new overtime law goes into effect Dec. 1 and naturally no one has said much to me. My understanding is that you can bump salary employees up to meet the 47,000 threshold, move them to hourly and hold them to only 40 hours or allow them to do overtime and pay for it. My department head insists that she cannot increase my salary because you have to manage a budget and be a manager to stay salary. Is this totally wrong, or am I crazy? She can move me up is she feels like it, right? There aren’t additional stipulations? Thanks for the help in advance. I’m really young and early in my career and you all are always so helpful.

    1. Lillian Styx*

      You can be salary and non-exempt. You can pay someone the same amount every pay period whether they work 30, 32, 35 or 40 hours but if they work more than 40 you have to pay them time and a half for that.

      We have two people on payroll under this scheme (soon to be 4!)

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes. The law has nothing in it that prevents them from keeping you salaried, as long as they pay you overtime when you work over 40 hours/week.

        I’m actually doing a column for U.S. News on the new law on Monday that in part addresses this (will link to it here when I do).

      2. Polabear*

        I’m salary, non exempt. However, there are two ways you can get paid over time, and they ate both legal. There is the standard, divide your salary by 40, then pay 1..5 times your salary fir hours over 40.

        But then there is the way I’m paid. If I when over 40, they take my weekly salary, and divide it by the total number of hours of worked. Then, I get ..5 that hourly rate for hours over 40. So, the more hours you work, the less your hourly rate is. It becomes much less lucrative.

        1. Lillian Styx*

          Oh! I did not know about that. In my payroll software the hourly rate and time and a half is already there, I supposed calculated from the annual salary. Seems a bit grubby to adjust the hourly rate every time…!

        2. Natalie*

          I’m not actually sure the way you are being paid is legal. It sounds like they are retroactively changing your pay rate to make sure that it always works out to the same amount, which doesn’t actually meet the requirements of the FLSA.

          1. fposte*

            What they might be doing, which the DOL does explicitly allow, is keeping her pay and hours the same and figuring her hourly rate based on 40 hours straight and 5 hours OT = old salary. As long as that doesn’t mean her hourly rate drops below minimum wage and she doesn’t have additional hours any weeks necessitating more pay that’s kosher.

            1. Natalie*

              Right, but that would mean they’re using a consistent rate. Polarbear’s description suggests they are *not* using a consistent rate, so they can jimmy it to stay the same every pay check regardless of hours worked. (“So, the more hours you work, the less your hourly rate is.”) Using a different “regular rate” every pay period is not going to fly, FLSA wise.

                1. Polabear*

                  I Explained it badly. so, I have a weekly salary of, say, 400 dollars. (It’s much more than that, but it’ll make the math easier. If i work 40 hours or less, I get the 400 dollars. If I work 80 hours, I get 400 dollars, plus (400 / 80 )* .5 * 40. In that case, my total pay check for the week would be 500 dollars.

                  This method follows the fluctuating hours role found here http://www.flsa.com/overtime.html

                  My salary is actually far above the salaried exempt limit. But my employer only classifies employees who have direct reports as exempt, which is lovely.

        3. Jules*

          The way you are paid is called fluctuating work week. And that method only works if your work actually fluctuates up and down. According to legal advise shared my way, someone working consistently 40 or above 40 could get the company in legal trouble for it. And some states doesn’t allow fluctuating work week at all.

            1. Natalie*

              Yeah, so you’re not actually in a fluctuating work environment and they can’t legally pay you using those rules.

        4. ThursdaysGeek*

          I don’t think they’re allowed to change your pay for work you’ve already done. That sounds illegal. Alison?

        5. Allison Mary*

          But then there is the way I’m paid. If I when over 40, they take my weekly salary, and divide it by the total number of hours of worked. Then, I get ..5 that hourly rate for hours over 40. So, the more hours you work, the less your hourly rate is. It becomes much less lucrative.

          I’m assuming you (Polabear) meant “1.5” times that hourly rate for hours over 40, not “0.5” times that hourly rate. It was bugging me that I couldn’t follow the process you described (I’m so hung over today, ugh), so I made a spreadsheet formula using the calculations you laid out, assuming a standard base weekly salary of $1,000, and using “0.5” times the excess of hours over 40 seemed way too low. It would’ve resulted in an effective overtime rate that was way below the “standard” hourly rate of $25/hr ($1,000 weekly salary divided by 40 hours per week).

          But even with the “1.5” change – yeah, that’s pretty lame. At 45 hours, the effective OT rate I got was $33.33. At 50 hours, it was $30.00, and at 55, it was $27.27. So yeah, definitely a diminishing rate there, and I agree with everyone else that has said this is almost certainly illegal.

          1. Allison Mary*

            Ah, just saw your additional explanation, with the link to the FLSA’s fluctuating hours guidelines. Never mind!

    2. Anon for this*

      I was coming to talk about the law too – my director is trying to get me a bump to keep me exempt, but it’s a big bump so I don’t know how realistic that is.

      Weird thing has come up – so because our handbook defines our workweek as 35/wk (7 hour days with 1 hour unpaid lunch) HR is saying that they have to pay us straight time for every hour over 35 and time and a half for every hour over 40. Is that just a thing my company is talking about or is that actually A Thing.

      I’m really concerned because staying at 35 is not really possible for my department specifically and I’m already getting things down the pipeline about our time management being less than optimal (not true, fwiw – that’s coming from HR, not anyone who knows what our workload actually entails) so I’m worried about getting in consistent hot water for working “overtime” even if I can manage to keep it under 40.

      I know I shouldn’t stress about earning more money but the bigger implication is that working more used to reflect well on me (and IS part of my job as management) but now might be reflecting on me and the other managers on my level as an inconvenience or at worst a liability.

      1. Pwyll*

        So, unless your state law is different, they don’t need to pay you anything additional for your hours from 35-40. They can pay your straight salary to cover anything up to 40 hours, but have to pay overtime over 40. So it sounds like a company thing, or maybe a state-specific thing.

      2. Lily in NYC*

        We have a 35 hour workweek and handle overtime the same way. Straight pay until you hit 40 hours. And it’s entirely possible you will be given a hard time even for getting straight pay – it happens here all the time. It sucks – there’s no way I can manage only 35 hours a week and get my work done, but they have made it very clear they don’t care and I just need to find a way to do it and keep my mouth shut.

      3. BRR*

        Unless your state law says otherwise, that’s legal. As long as your director knows it shouldn’t reflect poorly on you. This is really the point of the law; so people with lower salaries aren’t being underpaid for their responsibilities.

    3. AMT*

      Does she mean that it’s a company policy, or that it’s the law? Lillian is correct that there’s no law that states this, but it’s possible that your company has some weird internal policy about it.

      Either way, you’re right that they do have to either keep you hourly and pay you for the hours you work (including overtime), pay you a sub-47k salary and give you overtime when you work over 40, or bump your salary up to 47k. However, they’re legally free to choose which one of those they do.

      1. Polabear*

        You can absolutely be salaried without being exempt. I currently am. The two are not related legally.

        1. TL -*

          Yes but she presumably doesn’t get overtime right now, so she’s salaried exempt (otherwise this wouldn’t be an issue.)

          1. Pwyll*

            I think you’re addressing Lauren’s comment that “you have to manage a budget and be a manager to stay salary,” which is one of the descriptions of the Administrative and Managerial duties. It sounds to me like a misunderstanding from the boss that to be salaried you have to meet the duties test of the FLSA (you don’t).

            1. Anon for this*

              I manage 25 employees I pass the duties test.

              I also manage 25 employees so the time I need to be at work can vary quite a bit.

              Transitions are tough and I’m in non profit so they’re very concerned about how this is going to shake out financially (so I don’t know why they’re doing straight time, frankly)

      2. Natalie*

        It may be that in the course of becoming compliant with the salary portion of the test, someone realized that an awful lot of people didn’t meet the duties portion. That’s one thing that’s happened at my workplace.

    5. Jules*

      There are multiple exemption test. If you pass any one of them, you can become exempt provided that your salary meet the threshold of $47,476. Your organization might have gotten legal advice and decided that your role doesn’t qualify under the administrative test. You can refer to the following link for further detail on exempt status test: https://www.dol.gov/whd/overtime/final2016/

  33. Lady Dedlock*

    Anyone else have appallingly huge increases in health insurance premiums for next year? Mine are going up by about 75%, or $150/month for a single person. The cost of living increases we got this year don’t even cover it, which is pretty demoralizing. If I don’t want to be taking home less money next year, I basically have to look for a new job.

    1. Arielle*

      Wow, it’s going up by $150, or it’s $150 total? Either way that’s huge. Ours is going up by $20/month to stay on the current plan, which is now the “plus” plan, with an option to select a previously unavailable lower level of coverage at a much lower rate.

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        The plan I’m on now is about $200/month, and it’s going up to about $350. I could drop down to a lower tier with less coverage, but I don’t really want to do that because I have some ongoing health problems, so having a lower-premium plan would likely be more expensive in the long run due to the higher coinsurance rates.

          1. Lady Dedlock*

            Okay, so now I’m feeling dumb: I was looking at the wrong tier. The increase eats up my entire COLA, but not more than that. Hooray?

        2. AdminMeow*

          One gal at my office was just posting on Facebook about hers going up to $1100/month for her family for terrible coverage. Everyone else seems to have theirs going up too even if theirs was reasonable through their employer to begin with.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Mine is going up about $90, to almost $500/year. However, I no longer make nearly what I did a few months ago (I’m basically unemployed right now), so I’m going to change plans altogether and work on getting a much lower premium. If I still had my old job, it would have sucked but I still would have been able to afford it, just with less take-home. I didn’t get COL increases. Right now I’m looking for a job, won’t take one unless it offers benefits, and am willing to take a $20k pay cut if it pays for my insurance. My sympathies, and good luck!

    3. AndersonDarling*

      We have been warned that ours is going up 18-20%, but I am very lucky that our company is going to cover the increase. Very, very, lucky.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      I don’t have an enormous insurance increase, but can I just vent on what is? I live in a mid-size city that is starting to explode in growth and over the last year it’s just become completely unreasonable with the housing and rental market. To buy a house here, you basically have to make an offer the second the listing goes up, forget about actually going to see the house first…but anyway I live in apartment and it just got bought and they are starting to “upgrade” the grounds and everything. I was extremely lucky and turned in my lease renewal the day before the sale went through because I just found out how much my apartment would rent for, it’s a $240 increase a month. I would for the state, so there’s no way in hell I could ever afford that and pretty much all the complexes in the city are moving towards that cost.

      This was the last decent, in a nice neighborhood, easy commute, complex that I could afford, that I found. Now I’m already having to dread moving again next year because I don’t know where I’ll go because I really don’t want to move further away. (I’m from Atlanta, so I’ve already done killer commutes and just can’t go back to them).

      Sorry to hijack your post, it’s been bothering me all day.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Actually I’ve been so focused on this the last day or two…that while my insurance costs didn’t rise, my company apparently switched pharmacy providers and moved from an open plan to a closed, and so none of my prescriptions are covered, at all, not even in an “it needs prior authorization” but in a “your doctor actually has to appeal this decision”. It’s three different medications. So for the first few months of next year I’ll probably be dealing with side effects and have to call out sick more. It’s BS.

      2. Lady Dedlock*

        Ugh, that sounds really frustrating. It sucks when cost of living goes up so much that salaries can’t possibly keep pace—and especially when the rising costs end up pushing you out of your home and your neighborhood! I had the same thing happen to me at my last apartment. My landlord was asking for huge rent increases ($200 one year, $300 the next) because the neighborhood was just starting to gentrify, so I had to move out. I got really lucky and found a rent stabilized place that’s nicer than my last place, but I’m still angry that that kind of thing happens to good tenants. Hopefully things will work out in your favor in the end.

    6. Overeducated*

      I am on the exchange, so yeah. Our family plan will go from $850/mo to over $1000. We may end up switching to a plan with less coverage just to keep the cost the same. It really sucks and I am not sure how we will afford it if my spouse doesn’t find a new job when his current contract ends.

      1. Anion*

        Call or email your Congress representative/Senator/etc. Seriously. This is a government initiative and the gov’t needs to know what’s working and what’s not so it can be changed.

  34. YouDontKnowME*

    I was tricked into accepting a part time position at my current job. It was supposed to be only a few months and the idea of a short work day was appealing as i was recovering from a surgery. its now been 7 months and all talks of working full time end the same way– with no progress. I began my job search at the end of summer and found out that i was pregnant with our first child. I continued to look however now that I’m very obviously pregnant I feel like I have no chance of getting a new job. My mother told me last night that she will gift us my full 12 week salary in the next few weeks so that we’re sure we have a cushion and no worry about spending time with my baby as i wont have a paid leave from work. that was a HUGE worry and one of my main driving forces behind looking for a new job.
    now here’s my dilemma do i continue to job search while im pregnant or enjoy my easy part time job until after i have the baby then consider looking for a new job or see if part time suits our family?
    have you ever been hired while obviously showing?

    1. Temperance*

      What do you mean by “tricked”? Were you demoted from full time, or were you hired with the carrot of potential full-time work?

      1. YouDontKnowMe*

        I know this is late but I was full time, they had a part time employee at another office quit and they asked me to fill in with the promise of that position becoming full time in a few months tops.

    2. self employed*

      If it were me, I’d stick w part time. Trying to start a new job w a new baby would be super-tough– you’ll be sleep deprived at best and it would be difficult to show your skills at 100% under those conditions. Part time may also really work for you and your family.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      My office doesn’t think twice about hiring a visibly pregnant woman. We’d rather get the right person (and a new hire doesn’t get maternity leave benefits so the only “cost” is that she’ll be out for a while after having the baby).

      1. nerfmobile*

        I got hired when very pregnant. I am overweight and wasn’t showing much even at 7.5 months, so I interviewed and did well. When the internal recruiter called to tell me they wanted to make an offer, I took a deep breath and said “I know this isn’t legally supposed to have an impact on your hiring decision, but there might be other logistics at play – I’m pregnant and due in about 7 weeks.” She took it in stride, asked some other questions, and then went to talk to the hiring manager. Well, there hadn’t been many other good candidates, so the hiring manager decided to take the risk and hire me. I worked for 2 weeks after my start date and then we had to induce the baby early – I ended up with a C section, so I came back 2 months later. I lucked out and got some health care benefits for that and some short-term disability, too!

        I’m still with that company 5 years later, so it obviously worked out. I talked to my manager later, and she said that it could potentially have taken almost that long to find another good candidate, as I am in a competitive job role and industry in a market that doesn’t have many people at this level. So it was worth the risk to her. But obviously those market conditions can vary a lot – if I’d been in a field with lots of people looking for those jobs, they might not have been so willing to wait.

    4. SarahKay*

      My company hired someone while she was obviously showing. Why not keep searching, even if you put less time into it? It sounds as though you can now afford to be pickier about what you take, since you have a cushion. If you see, and are offered, your ideal job – great! If not, you’ve got the cushion and can think again after your baby is born. Oh – and congratulations :)

    5. chickabiddy*

      Many years ago, my then-boss and I interviewed a woman for a web design/maintenance position. She was eight months pregnant. She was clearly the best candidate and my boss decided that he wanted to hire her. I asked if we should make contingency plans for the next few months. He looked at me like I was crazy. He hadn’t even noticed that she was pregnant (and this was not an instance of careful clothing camouflage or a larger woman with a bit of extra belly — she looked like she had a basketball under her shirt). So you never know! We hired her.

  35. Venus Supreme*

    My mom has a job interview on Monday! Send her good vibes, AAM Readers!

    She’s been out of the workforce for a while because my parents were in an excellent financial position where she could focus more on family, but since my dad’s been unemployed for 5 years now (due to a drug addiction… whole ‘nother story), I’ve been trying to get her to be self-sufficient and move along with her life.

    It’s a little part-time job in town that I think will do her a world of good. I’m just a little worried because she’s close to retirement age and she has only a high school education, which may not make her the prime job applicant. But I know she’s a quick learner, resourceful, and sharp as a tack so I gave her the AAM interview handbook to read so she can really knock the interview out of the park.

    2. Observer*

      For a lot of positions, these qualities are more important than college. Especially if she’s also easy to get a long with and reliable.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Thank you- I’m hoping my mom can articulate that clearly in her interview and bam! She has a job.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      VIIIIIIIIBES
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      :)

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am grinning I bet she will go do great.
      Good luck, Mom of Venus!
      Let us know how it goes for her!

  36. Doug Judy*

    I had a phone interview this morning. The recruiter said she’d be contacting the hiring manager to set up our in person interview and she’d be in touch with me by the end of next week.

    Since I know I am moving on to the next phase do I need to sent the HR recruiter a thank you email or should I just wait until she contacts me with the in person interview details?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I always send an email. After all, you want to thank her for her time and tell her you look forward to the next steps. My rule of thumb in all cases is that it never hurts to thank someone. Too much following up? Don’t do that, but do thank someone.

    2. BRR*

      It wouldn’t hurt anything. I might make it simpler than I would have otherwise but I’d still do it.

  37. SophieChotek*

    Tips for attending a Job Fair?

    I’ve actually never been to one. (blushes)

    But here I am, post-grad school, not employed in what I went to grad school, looking for a job….I have a feeling I’ll be older than a lot of those going but don’t know. I have to admit I don’t really want to go, but I know if I want a new job, I need to put in (a lot of) effort.

    It is for state jobs. General description online.

    I looked up online to see what sort of jobs are posted – a lot are tech/medical I could never do
    I am sure I could do admin if given chance/training, but HR/admin/business it not my actual degree

    So I should bring my resume etc. Dress nicely. Attend some workshops.

    Not sure what else do you do at a job fair? How can I “maximize” my experience?

    Thanks for any tips from those attending or those representing their companies/agencies!

    2. Stephanie*

      Definitely hone your pitch so it’s short and focused. I was at my university’s job fair and was getting a bit annoyed that the girl in front of me was chatting for five minutes about nothing really when there was a line people waiting to talk to the recruiter.

    3. Murphy*

      Yes, bring your resume and dress nicely. Know which companies you want to talk to and why you might be interested in them. My husband just represented his company at one of these and his pet peeves were a) people who had their personal sales pitch ready to go and who were going to give it to you no matter what and b) (related) people whose education and skills were completely irrelevant to what his company did and even after he explained what the company did, these ill suited people still wanted to give their resume or deliver their sales pitch when it was in no way going to work out.

      1. Jen RO*

        I also attended a job fair on the employee side and I second what Murphy’s husband said.

        Also, don’t walk up to the company rep and have the following conversation:
        Me: Hello, can I help you? What kind of job are you looking for?
        Candidate: Oh I dunno, what do you have?
        Me: Well, we’re a software company, but we also have jobs in non-development departments… what would you be interested in?
        Candidate: Oh, anything.
        /facepalm
        Me: *sigh* Ok, tell me what you graduated from and I’ll tell you where you may fit.
        (Most of them were recent grads, but still… at least make a small effort!)

    4. EP*

      As others said – dress nicely – have multiple copies of your resume (print double sided or staple pages together so they don’t get separated.
      Look at the companies that will be there – also get the business cards of people you talk to, often they are the ones contacting you later about the jobs. Also be prepared to explain your degree if its not related (I have a fine arts degree and explaining why you want an arts person among scientists/business minded people was a major part of my job hunt).

      Good Luck!

  38. query this*

    I have a question similar to Frankie Seeks Job’s post above. I took a part-time job at the end of the summer. I am still applying for full-time work and some professional part-time jobs. At what point should I start listing my current position on my resume if the job I am applying for is similar or involves relevant skills/experience? Should I wait until it has been six months and only mention it during the interview stage? I am looking into applying for a few temporary/seasonal/part-time gigs to generate extra income, and I know those will require only an application and know to list my current job on those.

    1. fposte*

      If it’s relevant, I’d slap it on there pretty fast–maybe after a month. No reason for your resume not to list a relevant job you’re currently doing, and since it’s a part-time job it won’t have the same stigma of looking too fast after getting a full-time job.

  39. Zoon*

    My company has self made digital motivational posters on their website. This months poster is self control. Complete with a picture of 3 red velvet cupcakes.

    I wonder if next time they’ll put liquor in the photo slot. Probably not. I mean alcoholism is a disease. Obesity is … oh wait.

    1. Dawn*

      Uh… as someone who had a binge eating disorder for a very, very, very long time I would be absolutely livid about that. What do you mean by self-made? Could you go to HR about how inappropriate the poster is?

    3. Formica Dinette*

      If I were you, I would edit in the liquor photo myself, print out a few (dozen) copies, and leave them around the office. But I’m an asshole like that.

  40. SJPufendork*

    So, it was announced this week that our company is being acquired by a much larger company (closing in Q1 2017). Apparently, per the sales agreement, no-one at our smaller company is to be laid off. This is good, right?
    Well, the thing is we’re in a back office function (IT) where usually after a transition period, we would be made redundant. So, my boss (c-level) has been prepping our folks (my direct reports and their reports) for the worst (trying to get us to stay for the transition period and then letting us go). However this is in direct contrast to what the other company is saying to us, which is leading to much confusion and angst.
    The upshot is I’ve spent so much time on the phone this week dealing with people freaking out and wanting comfort/support. And it sucks because I don’t have a crystal ball and I don’t know if my boss’s instincts are correct or if he’s really just seeing the writing on the wall for someone at my level and above.
    I’ve just been telling the ones who call that we don’t know what’s really going to happen, but I can understand if they want to look elsewhere and don’t want to go through the messiness of an acquisition. I just really wish my boss would tone down the doom & gloom!

    1. Sami*

      I wouldn’t push they “nobody is losing their job” story too hard and stick with we don’t know. I would be more worried that they made that promise (knowing it’s BS) than if they hadn’t said anything.

      1. Wheezy Weasel*

        Does this C-level person have good instincts usually? Have they been part of other mergers before? Perhaps this is my cynicism showing through after a similar experience, but ‘not letting anyone go’ doesn’t mean that the company culture won’t radically change that will, in effect, force people to leave anyway.

        If your IT team supports the product or service and the new company is thinking of continuing to offer it, you may have a little bit of time…bringing the larger company support team up to speed on the project, finding ways to gain efficiencies with the resources the newer company brings to the table. If they purpose of the merger was to kill the product because it was competing with the larger company’s product, I’d be really concerned about your job 3-6 months in. I don’t know of many companies that look to fill open IT positions by acquisition, even if they had space on the existing team.

  41. GOG11*

    In the past, I’d buy Halloween candy using my own money. I’ve moved into a new department and physical location but am still with the same organization. Because the office’s set up is different from my other one and gets less foot traffic, I ran it past my boss to see if it would be a hit/get eaten before shelling out the money for candy (due to being on a strict diet for medical reasons means I can’t just take it home).

    Boss gave me some of his own money. We don’t have petty cash or a credit card, and I had planned to buy it myself. I tried to give it back and say I have the funds to buy candy and if I used the partial amount to pay the reimbursement wouldn’t line up, but he insisted and said it was for gas and my trouble. I’m terrible at certain interpersonal things. Is this weird? What am I supposed to do now?

    1. YouDontKnowME*

      he wanted to kick in. I wouldnt think of it as gas & trouble but more of him wanting to play along with the holiday. when you say it wont line up for partial reimbursement what is it that you mean?

      1. GOG11*

        A bag of candy will probably be more than he gave me, so I will cover part of the cost and he will cover part of the cost. So, say the candy is $10 and he gave me $5. I pay $5, but my receipt says $10 and so I’d get reimbursed for $10, which is essentially me pocketing the $5 he gave me. That’s the part that makes me feel uneasy.

        1. Emilia Bedelia*

          If that part makes you uneasy, perhaps make 2 purchases- 1 for the $5 worth of candy that he gave you money for, 1 for the other $5, and just submit one for reimbursement.

          However, I do think you’re overthinking this. It would be very easy for your boss to say “Just give me the receipt so I can reimburse you” or “Just pay me back once you’ve gotten the reimbursement”- take him at his word that he wants you to use the money he gave you. Consider it an upgrade, and get some nicer candy than usual!

        2. Persephone Mulberry*

          Oh, your original post wasn’t clear that you’re spending your own money and then getting reimbursed by the company! I would just attach a note to the reimbursement request/receipt saying “Boss already gave me $5 toward this expense, please only reimburse $[$X-$5].”

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      Nope, not weird to me. I agree that he probably just wanted to contribute. All you have to do is say thanks and pick some good candy. Maybe even ask if he has any requests.

    3. Government Worker*

      Does your boss realize you’ll be getting the candy reimbursed? When you say that you used to buy it with your own money, I read that as saying that you paid for it out of pocket and did not get reimbursed. In which case your boss giving you some money would mean that he wanted to contribute.

      2. Kittymommy*

        Yeah that’s what confused me too. If you’re getting reimbursed he probably doesn’t know that and I’d give the money back to him. If you really are using your own money, keep his cash – it was a nice thing he did.

        FWIW, my last job I had to but candy for our patients but the company wouldn’t expense it, so I was truly buying it myself. When they found out some of the patients would give me money. They got special candy! :-)

      3. GOG11*

        Sorry for the confusion (and the super late response – not sure if anyone will see this). In the past, I did buy it out of pocket and did not get reimbursed. I had been planning to do this again this year, but when I asked about it in another area I work in (area A), boss in area A told me to purchase it with dept. funds, so I had asked boss in area B if I could get reimbursed for the candy I was going to buy, at which time he gave me some of his own money . There wasn’t enough lead time to use dept. funds in area B or I would have just done that. In an attempt to not ramble I left that out.

        In the end, I ended up getting a great deal on a huge bag of candy so I kicked in a couple of dollars and boss B’s contribution covered the rest. I don’t plan to ask for reimbursement unless he would like reimbursed since it’s only a couple of dollars.

  42. LawCat*

    I’ve been in my new position two months now. I am just now understanding a certain aspect of my job that is very different from work I have done before. It’s going to be a challenge, but I feel a lot more confident now that when I was puzzled about the work, uncertain of my role with it, and having a hard time getting any kind of clarification. This is thanks to the person who used to have this role who was very generous with her time last week and helped break it down for me. Whew, it’s been such a relief to not feel so lost.

    I’ve suggested to my new supervisor (who is also unfamiliar with this aspect of my job, but is work some of his staff do) that there be some systematic training in this area and he was very receptive to that idea.

  43. Lilly*

    So, I am in an industry with high turnover. It’s been 7 months and 3 people quick our team (2 in same month). There is something that makes me sad about seeing them gone even if we weren’t friends. They were good colleagues and I will miss seeing them everyday. Does anybody else in height turnover industry feel the same and how do you deal with it ?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Oh gosh, I feel this way all the time! I hate learning that yet another friendly colleague has moved on; it’s both sad and makes my job a lot harder. I’ll be interested to see if anyone else has advice on how to deal with it.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      We have HUGE turnover where I work. The average tenure is under two years (lots of people leave to go back to school or to go make big bucks in the private sector). I handle it by no longer getting attached to new people. I’m friendly but that’s about it. The support departments (IT, marketing, EAs, etc) tend to stay alot longer because we are paid market rate (unlike the project managers) so I just bond with the other “lifers” instead.

    3. Cam*

      My team of 7 has had 5 people leave in the past couple of months. And I just went out on maternity leave, so that just leaves Dan as the only person on the team (including out manager) with more than 3 months experience. We’re in an industry with high turnover, but historically, our Dept has always been very stable until now. Unfortunately, I’m planning on dealing with it by getting a new job asap as well.

  44. Terrified*

    Yesterday I was handed a letter that was sent to my director, the mayor, the DPI, and the Lt. Governor. It accused me of being unethical in my handling of Teapots per a series of tweets I had made the night before.

    I discovered that a Teapot manufacturer was very anti-feminist. I made a poorly thought out comment about putting them in my book of Teapots. I don’t have a book. My profession is all about free access to Teapots. For making this statement I was harassed and called a Nazi and told that as a woman, all I should do all day is dust Teapots. The next morning I locked my account.

    However, someone sent a long and detailed email accusing me of three separate ethics breaches, saying that I promoted bias in the purchasing of teapots. My director was very angry. She said that even though I had complied with our social media policy in saying my opinions are my own, I should expect that everyone know where I work and so that doesn’t matter. She said she was mortified that she had to talk to the mayor about me and say that I do, in fact, purchase Teapots.

    I apologized profusely and set out steps I would take immediately, including deactivating my Twitter and offering not to buy Teapots any more. I was suspended until Tuesday without pay. On Tuesday, I must present my case in writing as to why they could try to trust me again after this grave breach of ethics and trust.

    I am terrified. I already have job-related anxiety and I haven’t been able to eat in the past 24 hours. I realize that what I said was in poor judgement and that they can fire me for anything. I am working on getting a new job, which I desperately need for my sanity, but the horror and pain of being fired feel like too much to bear. I am utterly ashamed and I don’t know what else to do. My friends, also in the Teapot profession, found nothing wrong with my comments and are urging me to contact a lawyer?

    Any tips? Also, any tips on not just sitting around shaking and being terrified all the time? I understand that social media is a pitfall and I made a dumb mistake.

    1. JMegan*

      Oh, no – I’m so sorry to hear it. No advice, but I hope cooler heads will prevail over the weekend, and you can all have a rational conversation on Tuesday. I’d love to hear an update next week if you’re comfortable doing that. Deep breaths, and good luck.

      1. Terrified*

        Thank you. My workplace is so toxic that I can barely function day to day, and I guess I should feel good about the possibility of getting out, but I don’t want it to be on bad terms. I’m already in therapy for what happens at work and now I can barely function.

        I can’t tell you how nice it is to just hear your good thoughts. Thank you so much.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          In that case, I guess the federal government is also biased: http://www.osec.doc.gov/osdbu/Small_Business.html

          Just look up “Small And Disadvantaged Business Utilization” and you can find plenty of examples.

          And taxpayers often don’t like to think that their money is going to support businesses that wouldn’t support them…

    2. Temperance*

      I don’t totally understand, but it sounds like you got caught in the crosshairs from a Gamer Gater or some other misogynist dbag.

      So what I would do is screenshot everything that this man has said online and send to HIS employer. I mean, he’s wacked out enough to try and destroy your right to make a living, why not fight fire with fire? I would do so anonymously, FWIW.

      1. ZVA*

        Yeah, I was gonna bring up Gamergate too. I’m very suspicious of the motives of whoever sent that email. It’s hard to say without more info, but it sounds to me like what LW said was maybe ill-advised but pretty innocuous and that the email was a massive (and perhaps malicious) overreaction, to which her director overreacted in turn. (The director even admitted that the tweets complied with social media policy!)

        OP, it’s good to hear you’ve contacted a lawyer; that’s what I would have suggested. As for the anxiety, I totally empathize. When mine gets really bad, I exercise (hard) to try & clear my head. Eat well, try and get good sleep if you can. And good luck…

        1. Terrified*

          Thanks for the advice. I definitely feel that the letter was sent because I am a woman. I did not have an agenda to harm anyone but that is how they wanted to read it. It’s really hard to keep the anxiety down but it is a little better now.

      1. Terrified*

        I did that while I was writing this post. I’m worried that my employer will say I committed grave misconduct with a breach of ethics and then I’ll be left in the lurch anyway.

    4. LCL*

      What was the grave breach of ethics and trust? Posting something snarky on twitter?
      I’m not a social media person, I know there are resources available to help you with that. On your own device at home, not on the company network, try the Mary Sue webpage. Which deals with pop culture but there are a lot of discussions about e harassment of women. Your friends’ advice about a lawyer is good, if you want to fight.

      Draft your statement for the meeting now. At the meeting, try to steer the discussion to the accusations of bias and explain why they are false accusations. Emphasize your performance. In your statement somewhere throw in a paragraph about the hideous retaliation women have faced for daring to express an opinion on social media. Look up Gamergate if you need some ideas, again using your home computer not the company network.

      Good luck, and eat something. Take care of yourself.

      1. Terrified*

        Yes, it was the tweet and the implication read into it by some that I was biased. I am at home so I will check out those resources you mentioned.

        Thanks. I’m going to try and eat … nowish. :/

    5. fposte*

      Just to be clear, you’re a municipal or other government employee? Then odds are that there are specific ethics guidelines that you can check on this; you can also have a quick trawl to see if other municipal employees are blogging, tweeting, etc. anything as controversial as you were and are still happily employed. Bonus points if they’re men and you get to suggest that they’re applying their policies (or non-policies) selectively based on gender.

      1. Terrified*

        My male coworkers are very vocal about politics on social media. This doesn’t seem to be an issue for the director. Then again, she only promotes men.

    6. Venus Supreme*

      This sounds like an ugly, bizarre situation. I’m so sorry. It sounds to me like they’re punishing you for standing up for yourself..? I agree to get a lawyer.

      Also, regardless, look for a new job! This is not worth the stress! Sending you love and hugs.

      1. Terrified*

        Thank you. I understand that I am opinionated, and I can understand that some of the points, but I feel really shamed. I am actively looking for another position and have some options.

    8. Allison Mary*

      This sounds terrible and stressful, and I’m so sorry you’re going through it.

      I also don’t totally understand – your director straight-up acknowledged that you complied with their social media policy (you made the disclaimer that your opinions were your own), and yet you’re still in a heapload of trouble? If you complied with their policy, where exactly do they think the problem is? How would they have expected you to handle it differently? Simply by not having strong opinions about anything and not sharing them publicly at all? Then why isn’t THAT their social media policy?

      1. Damn it Hardison!*

        This was my thought as well. Good for you for contacting a lawyer, and I hope it turns out well for you.

      2. Terrified*

        I guess the implication was that my words “sounded like” I was biased, which is a huge no-no in my profession. I was accused of blacklisting authors, etc. Other people who responded to my tweets said that they didn’t want to buy so-and-so’s book anymore b/c of this, but I did not encourage or congratulate them on that.

        I really have no idea.

        1. Allison Mary*

          But, but… it wasn’t in the context of your profession, it was in the context of your personal life and your personal opinions. And you complied with their policy by disclaiming that your opinions were your own! MOST people have personal biases, and if it was really important to your employer that their employees not express personal biases in the manner that you did, then I say again that clearly their existing social media policy is insufficient to meet their actual needs.

          I’m not meaning to argue with you, specifically – just an uninvolved outsider trying to point out the apparent insanity of the way your employers have behaved. Hopefully this can come as encouragement to you that you’re not crazy, and it doesn’t sound like you made an egregious mistake. You were totally compliant with policies as they were written, and it sounds to me (based on the way you’ve described everything), that your employer is possibly the one who’s out of touch here. And if getting out of dodge is what you want to do, anyway, I fully applaud that decision.

        2. Anion*

          So was your tweet about a company, or were you specifically calling out/shaming individuals for their opinions? Did the people/person you were calling out make their statements publicly? Or was there some “threat” involved, because you mentioned that, too? I’m sorry, I’m confused. Does your work involve financially supporting (or not supporting) the work of the people you discussed, or does it have nothing at all to do with them/their work?

          It is very, very upsetting to learn that there are people who don’t think you should be allowed to earn money if your viewpoint doesn’t match theirs exactly. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I find it genuinely terrifying that some innocuous offhand comment can be used to justify backlashes or boycotts or terminations like that; the idea that in order to have the right to make a living we must all conform to one mindset or be shunned/fired, or that putting one foot out of line justifies public shaming and punishment, is terrifying.

          If the person/company you were pointing to made their comments on Twitter (or in some similar public online place), then it can certainly be argued that you were simply responding to what they put out there; I’ve seen that argument before. It’s also possible that by the time your meeting happens the whole thing will have blown over, online-wise–these things often do.

          Best of luck to you.

          1. Terrified*

            Their comments were all on their public Twitter–extremely anti-women, anti-feminism. I was browsing a hashtag and saw it and made a comment on my twitter. Some of my friends asked who it was, and b/c it was public, I said the name but without tagging him (I don’t tag ppl). Later, one of his followers tagged my tweet and @-ed the author, who then responded to me.

            The person is an author and I am a librarian. I buy people’s books no matter what they think, and I stated that latter on my Twitter. No one really cares b/c they are all upset about my original tweet calling out the author and saying I took notice of what he was saying. Other people said they wouldn’t buy his books but I said the opposite.

            My director doesn’t believe that my first tweet was meant in jest (it was)–she seems to think I am actively biased when I buy books. Although there is no evidence anyone ever looked at my history. Which would say otherwise. I got my official Reprimand Letter yesterday and she flat out states that she agrees with everything the letter-writing complainant said! I am officially in trouble for making my business look bad. ???

            I just am terrified of being fired–I am a huge people pleaser and I already suffer from anxiety and depression, and I don’t know what I would do.

            1. Anion*

              Ah, okay, I understand it better now. So this author was tweeting the hashtag, it wasn’t some offhand comment you saw or anything like that.

              I gotta say, this is a tough one. I also have to offer full disclosure here: I’m an author (NY multi-published) and I’ve been on the receiving end of the “I’m never buying her books again!” thing because of an offhand comment made in jest, or the total misinterpretation of a point I made. It’s not fun. It’s actually pretty horrible to feel like one misstep can turn into a huge deal, where suddenly you’re being talked about in a negative fashion on blogs you’ve barely even heard of, for something you didn’t actually say or do, or that was meant in a completely different way than it’s being portrayed. I think you probably have a sense right now of what it feels like.

              Please do not think that because of the above, or because of what I’m about to say, that I don’t side with you here. I do. The author in question was deliberately drawing attention to his statements and–going by what you’ve said, and I believe you–was deliberately trying to cause controversy. You have every right to feel the way you feel about that, and to say so. Every right. Again, please don’t think I’m against you here or that my comments are of the “Serves you right, now you know how it feels,” variety, because that’s not my intention.

              My intention is to give you ammunition, as it were, for your meeting today; some things you can say that might “prove” that you understand the issue and are willing to accept responsibility–that you’ve “learned your lesson,” so to speak.

              Tell your boss etc. that you understand that you are in a position of power over the author in question, in that your job is to decide whose books are in the library and whose aren’t. Tell them that you understand that viewed in that context, and because your tweet was not just about your personal feelings but related to your feelings about a person whose career you can to some extent materially damage by denying him access to shelf space and therefore the public, it was wrong of you to imply, even as a joke, that you were going to exercise that power because you disagreed with what he said. Tell them that as a librarian you are a staunch supporter of free speech, and you do not believe that the author’s personal opinions should have any effect on the availability of his work–that to remove his works from the library (or refuse to buy them in future) is equivalent to censorship, and that for a public library to carry only the works of authors with the “correct” opinions and refuse to carry those who disagree with them would be, basically, fascism. Tell them that you never, ever intended for your tweet(s), which were made in a moment of exasperation and intended only to be a joke for your friends, to be taken as any sort of endorsement of either thing, but that you understand that as someone who makes decisions about what books the library shelves, you cannot and should not make jokes like that. Tell them you forgot momentarily that Twitter is indeed a public place and that even though you thought you were just joking with friends, obviously other people can see that, and those people do not know you and so do not understand that you are completely objective in your purchasing decisions. Tell them you understand that given your job, your tweet must have been genuinely frightening for the author, who suddenly saw that he might suffer a financial loss simply because he has an opinion that one individual librarian does not like–and that you understand that it’s a bigger deal than one reader deciding not to buy his books, because librarians influence many readers and denial of availability is a serious hurdle for an author. Tell them you genuinely regret this, and that you regret the shadow it cast on X Library/the library system of X city/however you phrase it. Tell them that you understand that not everyone shares your opinions and that you never buy books based solely on how you feel about the author (if you have examples to back that up that would be good).

              Offer to make a public statement of the above on Twitter and Facebook. Offer to apologize to the author. Suggest that perhaps the library can have some sort of “Celebration of Free Speech” week or something (not where this author’s books are specifically highlighted, just in general), which you would organize. Suggest that you offer the author a book signing/reading or some other type of event at your library.

              I realize that some of this will be difficult to swallow, and that some of it seems like this author is being rewarded for saying lousy things, and that sucks. But the goal here is to demonstrate that you understand where and how you erred and that you’re willing to take full responsibility and to make it right however you can. The goal is to show them that you are worthy of trust, and IMO the only real way to prove that is to show that you fully understand how serious the issue is, how deeply you regret it, and how far you’re willing to go to correct the situation and make X Library look good again. (I don’t know how big or how far the issue has gotten/gone, so I don’t know if this is something that’s bringing negative publicity in some places or whatever, so that last may not be fully applicable.)

              Again, I don’t want you to think that I think you deserve any of this or that I’m glad this has happened to you. I don’t. I support you and I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I’m just trying to think of what you can say and do to make clear that you understand the issue, and the only way I can think of to do that is to explain it from the POV of an author.

              I really hope this helps, and I wish you the best of luck today. {{{hug}}}

    9. OhBehave*

      This sounds completely politically motivated. It’s all about the optics and not necessarily the truth. If Teapot Mfr is a major employer, they probably turned on the heat! Unfortunately with social media, we are not separated from our employers. People don’t stop to consider that we are people with personal opinions. Being a governmental employee (local, state or national), means that employees have to be careful in who they insult. Posting on social media takes what we may say to coworkers or friends in private and makes it available to everyone on earth!

      Hopefully you can control your anxiety and meet on Tuesday with confidence and proof that you won’t do such things again. It’s a rare thing that you post stuff such as this, etc. As someone else suggested, troll some other employees and find out what they are sharing. If this is a sexist thing, check out what the men are posting or sharing. We hate the term, Good Ole’ Boys Network, but that seems to be at play here in some ways. If the director only promotes men, she is a CYA director. She doesn’t want to rock the boat and wants to be a team player because she has higher aspirations. It could also be the fact that they need to seem like they are dealing with the issue (you) to make it look good.

      I wish you luck as you meet Tuesday. Double up your job search efforts NOW. If you are in therapy solely because of this job, it’s not worth it. Get out. Easy to say, but really?!

      Meanwhile, focus on other things in your life this weekend. Family, pets, hobbies, cleaning out a closet, helping someone else. It may help distract you a bit because this employer doesn’t deserve you!

      1. Terrified*

        Thank you so much (and to everyone!) commenting. I didn’t even think of the guys’ social media until you brought it up! I also believe that part of the reason for the supension was that she was able to go back to the mayor and say, “Aha, we punished her!”

        I’ve been applying like mad recently, and this just encourages me to keep applying. I even applied for some seasonal jobs in case things don’t line up.

        Yes, I’m pretty much in therapy b/c of the job. We are going to a book signing tomorrow so hopefully that will be nice.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I am not very impressed with your boss here. I am not even impressed with the others in this story either.

      This is a slight variation of what my wise friend might say, when we work with people who behave like idiots, this type of stuff can happen.
      May time be kind to you. May time show you that when you are working with sane people stuff like this does not go out of hand.

      Chin up. MANY, many people have done far, far worse than this and they landed on their feet and so will you.
      I assume you can’t sleep so here are a couple of things to think about.
      1) Check the news headlines and count, yes actually count, the number of headlines about people doing things far worse than this here.

      2) You are saying that your biggest worry is losing your job. Okay, let’s go with this. Make a plan. What will you do if you lose your job? Write down categories, such as job hunting and self-care. Then under each category write down actual activities that you will do. This does not have to be long, but keep it handy so you can add something as it occurs to you.

      3) Make a support group list. This does not have to be long, but the people have to be rock solid. So, let’s start with your therapist and your attorney (when you find her, yes, a woman). Think of one more person you can add.

      4) You should have something that talks about ethics guidelines for your job. It might be a booklet, some papers or something online. Try to find it. Then read it, make notes in the margins.

      Let us know how you are doing.

  45. Brett*

    Ran into a department head from old job at an event this past weekend.
    She did not realize I had a new job (for the past 8 months) and wondered why she had not seen me around…

  46. Mustache Cat*

    I have a question specifically about Alison’s book! I want to get it for my dad for Christmas, but I don’t think he’d be into trying to read a pdf version. Is there any chance of getting a physical copy of the book somehow? I would definitely pay a premium to have something to wrap.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Unfortunately, no — it’s only electronic. I’m sorry! However, it comes in an epub version so if he has a Kindle or another e-reader, it doesn’t need to just be a PDF.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      You can print it out and have it bound nicely by kinko’s or something. We sent my dad’s blog to a company who made into a hardcover book after he died (people with the same rare disease kept asking for it because it had helpful info). It wasn’t expensive (but I don’t know if you can do that with copyrighted material).

      2. Sami*

        Alison- is it ok if we (who’ve legally purchased your book) make a print copy? I’d love to do that. I use my kindle and iPad constantly but I like physical books for nonfiction.

  47. anonderella*

    So, I have been at my job for a year, shy a month and a day.
    I’m a front desk person, so I knew that my role would be fairly distant from the other departments, who spend a good, but appropriate, amount of time socializing and socially decompressing during the work day.
    I always felt so left out, not only with the socializing, but like I wasn’t being given anything important to do. I found AAM, and have posted a few times to try and use the responding comments to come to some sort of understanding about my situation.

    I found out last week that my boss, the office manager, has been telling my coworkers not to talk to me or give me assignments. I don’t know the entire extent of that command, but it was confirmed by two different people, in different departments, that this is what my boss has been telling the rest of the office. She also wants all tasks that I might be asked to help out on to go through her – *which could make sense*, but somehow none of it ever gets back to me; meaning, if a busy coworker wants my help with data-entry or something else mundane, and I have NOTHING to do, and have been politely telling my boss for a week or two that I have NOTHING to do, asking every now and then if there is anything I can do to help her out, and am given NOTHING, or what she promises takes weeks longer than it was supposed to, I sit on my hands for weeks. And she knows this, but it ends up being my “fault” that I didn’t come to her for something to do. Also, a lot of the tasks she gives me counter previous directives, and I am left trying to sort out a) what she wanted to begin with, b) what she said she wanted later, and c) what’s actually best for the company – which, I should be depending on her for that!
    She also has a terrible attitude (I also learned that everybody in the office HATES her, minus our co. president, of course), and harped on me for months about a ‘personality’ conflict we seemed to be having – which, she was very correct, but I *never* would let that bother me at work, unless it was something I truly could not work with. And if that’s the case, why am I still employed here? Why have I *never* been given anything to improve on? She actually told me that during my last review, that there was nothing I could be doing better.

    I am not used to having a problem in front of me that I can’t solve, or even actively work to alleviate – it sucks.

    TL,DR: Anyone else had a boss with whom the correct path of action was to stay out of their way, and try to secretly learn skills that will help with your future career? My boss has made it clear (not with words, but through her actions over the past year) that anything useful I’m going to be able to put on a resume will come at a trickle-down pace, over years.
    I’ve been here a year, and not only do I feel like I have gained nothing useful to put on my resume, but have learned that my boss is actively persuading people to not give me stuff to do! While herself not giving me the things to do that she promised me a week ago (let alone a year ago..)! Argh!

    1. anonderella*

      Adding one thing – I saw a post here a few days ago asking about the use of the phrase “looking for a new challenge” being acceptable terminology for why you left your last position. I was thrilled to hear Allison saying that it was, until she added that ‘if you’ve only been at your position for a year and are saying you’re looking for new challenges,’ that she wouldn’t think it was a good idea.
      I’m not looking to change my job right now, but my SO and I were hoping to move around the middle of next year, and I’m worried that I won’t have anything good to put on my resume. I’m also worried that even if I follow my boss’ directives to the T, she won’t be happy because she either doesn’t like me or I am insufficient for the role, but she won’t provide any good feedback on how I could get better. And I am worried about how I would describe the work I’ve done here.

      I want to be someone my boss can count on, but it seems like that ship has sailed for whatever reason. Another problem is that I’m so low on her radar, I don’t think any of my frustration even registers for her; even though she’s the one causing it, and is literally the only person at my company I have a problem with.

      1. Adam V*

        If you’re moving, you don’t need the “new challenge” explanation. In that case, you just explain “here’s what I was able to accomplish, but it wasn’t a ton because it was only a year”.

        1. anonderella*

          That’s the direction I’ve been leaning toward – and reading AAM helps so much with those anxieties you come up against while job searching! Even if I’m not in the position of the poster, myself, it’s almost therapeutic to see those stories play out, and to learn from them.
          But that’s good to hear, thanks.

          1. anonderella*

            good point! We are also doing a ton of research on where we’d like to go, so I will have an arsenal to answer ‘Why here?’ type questions. Hopefully enthusiasm for our new locale will take the focus off why I left my old job/area.

    2. Adam V*

      Do you email your boss when asking for additional work? If so, you’d have that to point to when she complains you didn’t ask her for work to do (“Oh, I’m sorry, I had sent an email yesterday at 7:42 asking for more work to do – maybe you missed it among all your other emails”).

      Does everyone report to the office manager? If not, perhaps their bosses could go to the office manager and say “hey, you keep telling my employees not to go straight to anonderella with additional work, but to take it to you instead – but then I hear that the work never gets to her and is left undone. Let’s work out a new system to ensure they don’t think the work is getting done when it’s sitting on your desk instead.”

      1. anonderella*

        re: 1st paragraph: She’s really weasley; even when I ask to communicate through email, so there are references for what was said/requested on both ends, she dismisses it, and usually with a chaser of tonal condescension. Like, I should know better than to request something so off-the-wall.

        re 2nd paragraph: Not everyone reports to her, but the department I work most closely with (like I do their filing, and create labels for folders, and sometimes set up a UPS shipment) is the Admins, and she is over them as well as me. The only other department I occasionally help is one person in accounting, and she was the one who finally broke down and complained to me that “I’m sorry, but your job is bullshit. You are given the most bullshit tasks – she has you doing crap like sweeping the parking lot, and nothing really useful.”
        Now, I took that as best I could, especially considering I 100% agree; but to learn that the rest of the company thinks my position is a joke – it was tough.
        The reason this individual can’t bypass my boss and give me work anyway, is that it would get back to my boss, and I would ‘get in trouble’. wtf.
        The people I support seem to be more or less based on the people who take over for me when I have lunch. I suggested at my performance review that one day a week, maybe aligning with who is covering my lunch that day, I could do one-on-one support for each admin/accountant, and that way be exposed to their processes but also be useful for the company. Alternatively, I offered to support only my boss, doing stuff like taking over travel reservations, being able to put in inventory orders without her approval, so she could focus on bigger projects.
        She did not think it would be useful.

    3. AnotherAnony*

      Omg, I’m having such flashbacks after reading this. “…has been telling my coworkers not to talk to me or give me assignments.” Can someone please explain what the point of this is? Why is isolating her the solution? Okay, vent over with. Anonderella, keep asking for feedback/input from your boss. Otherwise, I would start looking for a new job. Telling you that everything is fine, but then playing these little mind games like isolating you or saying you’re not doing enough, but not telling you what you should be doing is a battle you’ll never win. (Unless the boss leaves or you can transfer to another department.)

      1. anonderella*

        No vent with me!! kidding, I appreciate your input, though.

        The mindgames comment is spot-on for how I feel about her.
        It was relieving at first to hear that I was indeed the target of her games, but that relief gave way to a new insecurity, albeit one less terrifying, now that I know my correct course of action is to continue to try to improve where I can at this job, not give in and become a lump in a chair, and I guess count less on this job teaching me what I need to know for my next – I’ll have to start looking elsewhere.

        I still do want to have respect for my boss; even when I’ve let past behavior/comments slip off my shoulders, it’s like she’s right back ready to take out some unseen frustration on me and the other admins. It was extremely relieving to hear the entire office (anyone non-executive team) feels the same way about how she treats them and talks to them.

        the only other time I’ve had a talk with a coworker here like that was almost 9 months ago – an admin and I stood outside for 45 minutes after we’d left the building, and just talked about how she treats us. There were lawn-care guys swirling around us on mowers for most of that time, and we were both so downtrodden that it was worth standing amidst the noise and dust to just feel alleviated from her tyrancy, for a moment.
        My coworker was complaining that she had been put on a PIP for saying to our office manager “you make me feel like a redheaded stepchild”. Now, my coworker was a bit ‘country’, and prone to hyperbole, and though I wouldn’t have said specifically that to my boss, I do think it was a joke made out of frustration, the point of which was ultimately to communicate to our boss that she was being made to feel dismissed, and that point was completely missed. My boss wrote her up for ‘insubordination’ – which, appropriate or not, has got to be one of the best PIP prompts ever.

        oy, vent over. Thanks, to you and everyone!

    4. Temperance*

      I would look to move on. It sounds like your boss wants you to stay at the reception desk, and she’s going to keep you in the pink ghetto.

      I would look for positions that have other stuff and reception, or no reception at all. Far too often women get stuck at the front desk because it’s hard to find good admin help. I had to leave my last job because they had no intention of promoting me.

      1. anonderella*

        That’s another conundrum with my current boss; her words sound like she wants to help, but they are so far apart from her actions.
        Oy, good to hear from other folks that my interpretation of the situation is that it’s pretty whack – and I can do better.

        1. Temperance*

          My guess is that you’re a skilled receptionist, and she wants to keep you there because it’s hard to find qualified people to do reception. So she leads you on and purposely keeps you from getting the skills to move up.

          My last job did this exact thing to me. I was a good admin, and my grandboss liked that I helped her with marketing and was a good writer, so she wouldn’t recommend me for better jobs. My great-grandboss gave me more interesting work, though, and we’re still close today.

    5. EA*

      That is horrible. She probably is too lazy to fire you (plus has zero cause), but doesn’t want to help you with more work and doesn’t like you for some reason (the personality conflict you mentioned).

      Honestly, leave. She sucks and is not changing. She is going to stand in your way. You don’t want to be worrying that if you get extra work, you have to hide it. I know AAM talks a lot about not being a job hopper, but like, I think reception/admin jobs are often the exception to this. People rarely stay in admin jobs more than 2 years unless they are in a high level position. Look into administrative assistant positions. I think you need to believe what you are seeing, not what she is saying.

      1. anonderella*

        “I think you need to believe what you are seeing, not what she is saying.”

        This was a huge part of the problem – she made herself my only resource (btw, she even admitted to me during my review that she hadn’t been as supportive as she should have been, but gave no indication of change in that aspect, and indeed, there has been no change.) and I didn’t have as full a grasp as I do now, before learning last week that she is actively being a roadbloack to my success.

        “Look into administrative assistant positions.”

        I will take that to heart! Nothing wrong with aiming a little higher than receptionist.
        (btw, I forgot to mention, my current job is the first out of college, and only one so far that doesn’t involve a pizza box.)

        1. EA*

          One year reception counts as admin experience. You have transferable skills, I am sure you greet people, maybe schedule?

          1. anonderella*

            Apologies for the leeeengthy reply – this issue has been giving me severe anxiety, and I truly felt paralyzed in my career until I heard from other people.

            The 1-year-is-experience thing is what I’m hoping for – so that’s great to hear validated! – but, while I do greet people and am the ‘front face’ of the office, the other more ‘routine’ tasks I handle are limited, and all take like 5 minutes. I do no scheduling of any kind, even though I specifically asked to help out with this in my performance review. When first hired, I was told we would be ‘hitting the ground running’. I figured it’d be a go-go-go type job, and I’d probably make some mistakes at first, but would eventually hit my groove. I like multitasking, a lot; I like being challenged with new tasks; I like doing a part to make a team work better; I’m decent with people, even angry people who want to get paid; I don’t mind having to look for resources in order to make a project successful.
            I have never been trained on any aspect of my job, other than the phone system. However, I was dinged in my review for not “knowing” some stuff already – all I could think was, you hired me! You know my skill level because you keep it where it is!
            I also assumed her sarcasm and ‘wit’ would stay somewhat benevolent, and above all, behind me, supportively. I really don’t think there was anything about her that I could have seen coming as a red flag. The problem here is that she keeps *telling* me she’s my resource, and to come to her, but isn’t *being* helpful or supportive.
            For example, on a recent project she had me doing, I had to collect information from our field guys as well as in-office people. She told me specifically at the start of the project she would send me a blanket email on how to request the info from the field guys. Fast forward two months, all in-office people are collected (some were working out of town or on PTO, so it took a while), and it has become apparent (won’t go into details, just comments she made, both verbally and in emails) that she expects me to get the info from the field guys. No problem, I start on an email, but fairly quickly run into some snags wording it (because she was supposed to be doing it in the first place and only she has some info I need). I politely asked for her advice on how to do so, and the entire project is taken away from me. It was supposed to all end up with her anyway, so having it taken wasn’t huge.
            BUT she was supposed to be getting me info I needed! As she took it, her words were “Ok, well I’m just going to take this because it’s taking a while.” (what?? I’ve been waiting on you! And telling you I’m waiting on you! The proof is in our emails, in our minutes for our bi-weekly meetings – you put it there!)

            I really think she doesn’t have the worst intentions, I think she’s just sidelined me, and has a terrible ego problem. And can’t talk respectfully to people she thinks are beneath her on the work-level hierarchy. I * do not* need her to butter me up. But until this recent get-together with the coworkers who let me in on exactly how little I matter at my job (while stressing how much I *could* be doing if not for my/our boss!), I used to go home and cry to my SO; sometimes about how awful she is, sometimes about how I had to be as low as she made me feel, in order for her to treat me like that. My poor SO, even though he tried to tell me that it’s just her, I’m ok and doing ok, and most importantly, I can and will do better, it took hearing it from people who work under her, too, for me to really listen.

            You guys are nailing it; I will continue to leave the door open for her to change and also open up to me, but I’m not banking on it to be successful here. And, I may not be able to be as successful as I could be with her as my boss, but that may just have to be the reality of this period of time in my life.
            It’s still a learning experience – just wish dealing with her was a transferable skill to my resume!

            Thanks, all!

            1. anonderella*

              btw, if this paints the picture any clearer, my boss is one of those people who show attitude through the height and angle of her eyebrows. So even when I present a logical argument, I glance up at her and see an angry-Joan-Crawford-nightmare, sneering down at me. Oy.

              So many times has she been giving me crap,
              (this deserves its own line – here’s some recent crap : my newest duty is to walk to every single associate’s desk in our office, and ask if they have any dishes I can take to the kitchen for them, at a certain point near endofday, every. single. day. Oh, then I *do* the dishes for the other associates, in the kitchen at the back of the office, while trying to keep an ear out for the front desk visitors and the ringing phone.)
              and I am just thinking to myself, “put your g_____m eyebrows back down on your head so I can take you seriously. Just lower them to a level appropriate for a human, and resume speaking.”

              1. Elizabeth West*

                Even if you have to get another front desk job, it has to be better than this crap. Plus, if you have a reasonable boss in a reasonable company, you might get more tasks you can pull additional skills from. It took me several receptionist positions to get an admin job, but they kept getting better in terms of what I did. Although I have to say, the first one was my favorite, mostly because my coworkers were AWESOME.

                Hahaha, the eyebrows thing cracked me up. :D

              3. Not So NewReader*

                Get away from this woman. I have no clue what her problem is but it’s severe whatever it is. She is an abusive boss.

  48. new poster with a dilemma*

    If you were given a promotion at your job (without applying) and found out months later after accidentally being cc’d in an email between managers that you only got the promotion due to your race/being a minority and that a co-worker and friend who is more qualified and was supposed to get it instead what would you do? No one knows you were cc’d and the friend has no idea and has only been supportive. Any advice would be appreciated, thank you.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Wow. WOW. How incredibly crappy. I don’t even know what I would do… But do your managers know you saw the email? My first instinct would be to go to one of them and quietly say, “I need you to know that I saw this email [and it is bullshit on so many levels]” or something like that, but I have a tendency to get very indignant about such things.

      I’m really sorry you’re in this position.

    2. new poster with a dilemma*

      *I feel really guilty and sick over this, I don’t want to to “hide” it or make it so that no one else knows or finds out.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        No, hiding it won’t make you feel any better, ever. AvonLady Barksdale has good advice. Start with the person who cc’d you, or with the manager in the list that you have the best rapport with. Since you were cc’d, it can’t really be completely hidden anyway, so make it clear you feel guilty and sick over it. I think if it were me, and all the managers wanted to keep it hidden, I’d go to the friend. Because if they really are a friend, it would be better to hear it from you than to think you were trying to also keep it hidden. I have no idea how things will go, and that’s a really terrible position to be put in!

      2. Caro in the UK*

        Please don’t feel guilty. This is absolutely not your fault, not at all. So try not to beat yourself up about it. (Harder said than done, I totally get how you feel.)

        I think AvonLady Barksdale’s approach might be best, a quiet word with someone you trust. But just know none of this is your fault.

    3. Talking out of my arse here, but...*

      I don’t know what you can do. Do you really want to go to the managers and say, I don’t want a pity promotion, please demote me and give it to her instead? I suppose you could, but that’s really their call and not yours. Calling them out will make them uncomfortable, and if I were your friend, I would really, really not want to know this had happened. (Again, what good does it do for friend to know?)

      Or you could think about it this way: unless they said you’re completely unqualified (I hope not), you’re not unqualified, she was more qualified. But are you doing terribly at the job? Probably not, right? There have been times where the super best person may not have gotten a job, but the “next best” or whatever who did it still did well, or even better than they figured. And well, to some degree it does help to have PoC getting more promotions in the world, or at least it encourages more of them to get some. Unless you are absolutely terrible at the job, it’s not hurting the job or the employers to have you in it. It only hurt your friend, which sucks, but…well, management can decide whatever they want.

      I think if it were me I’d just do the best I can in the job and not say anything. Heck, I’ve been the second choice and gotten hired when the first bailed and guess what, I did well anyway and they still kept me.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        And that’s also a good point — if you are doing the job and capable, you aren’t asking for the job to be taken away. Still, I personally wouldn’t want to keep it hidden.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I can’t speak for new poster, but I wouldn’t want to work for a place that gave me a promotion because I was a token. I’m not a PoC, but I’d be pretty pissed if I only got a promotion because I’m a woman/Jewish/have blue eyes. That would not sit will with me at all. Being the second choice for a job because someone else turned it down is a totally different scenario. new poster isn’t the second choice because her friend said no, she’s the choice because of something that has nothing to do with her abilities. Granted, I’m sure she has plenty of abilities, but it’s not about that.

      3. new poster with a dilemma*

        The only reason I was promoted was due to my race/being a minority. I was surprised when I was promoted because there are more qualified people than me here (including my friend) and I didn’t think I had the skills or experience. The management said they saw something in my and decided I was the one. Now I know they meant my skin color. If I were not a minority I would not have been considered at all. I am still in training mode but I have felt in over my head. I thought it was just imposter syndrome but now I know why. Someone already commented that I’m taking much longer to train than expected, but that person isn’t a manager or one of my subordinates so I didn’t think anything of it. After getting the email I know I was only promoted because of my skin color to make the company look better.

        1. animaniactoo*

          This is a really really tough position to be in.

          If I were you, I would ask to step back to the previous position. Tell them that your misgivings about the position have born out in how underwater you’ve been trying to train for this position, and how long it’s taking to train you.

          I would mention having seen the e-mail, and tell them that this move actually offends you because people have worked very hard to be seen EQUAL regardless of their skin color, and affirmative action has gotten such a bad name from people doing this very thing – promoting someone who was less qualified due to their skin color or gender. The point of affirmative action was to get people who were EQUALLY qualified into those roles. So what you would like from this debacle is for them to put the time and effort into training you in your current pre-promotion role so that you might some day be one of the most qualified candidates, but in the meantime, please put one of the better qualified candidates in the role and stop focusing on your “minority” aspect. If they have an imbalance perception problem, that would be better addressed by prioritizing (once again for the people in the back) EQUALLY QUALIFIED candidates when they hire or promote in the future.

          Now – this is what I would do if I were in your position. But what you do has to be based on what you feel comfortable pulling off – you might feel more comfortable jobhunting right now and giving your friend a copy of the e-mail as soon as you’ve secured something else. Or talking it over with your friend and asking them what they think you and they should do. But I would go for the above primarily because it calls them out on this crap that has so tainted and created such divide over affirmative action and the perception of what it is supposed to do for POC. Which really offends *me*. And I would be trying to keep a paycheck at the same time and be able to live with myself.

          Fwiw, I went through some of the same when I figured out that I had ended up in a super-secret pension plan at my company that others I expected to have access to didn’t. I ran it down with a co-worker and figured out that there were differences that made sense in terms of who had received prior assistance, responsibility of roles, etc. But if there weren’t, I was prepared to out the plan and make an issue out of it.

        2. fposte*

          Oh, bummer; I was hoping it wasn’t quite as bad as that.

          I think if you felt happy and confident in your job I would still encourage you to say inwardly “Suck it, losers, you hired somebody good for the wrong reasons” and not pursue it. But it sounds like you’re not happy. In that case I think asking to step back down is reasonable. I still don’t think you need to raise the issue of the email explicitly, but you might be able to address the issue obliquely by saying that at a workplace where you’re one of the visible faces of diversity it’s important that you be succeeding and not failing.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Right. As a black woman who works at a company with very few people of color, especially women and especially in higher-level or executive roles, I was going to say something similar – she should continue doing her job, kicking ass, and then once she gained enough experience to find something else, quit and go work for people who don’t do this tokenism/faux diversity bullshit. But you’re right – she’s not happy in the role and apparently not doing that well in it either, which just makes this situation worse. People will start to notice and will start speculating as to why she got the job in the first place, and you bet the affirmative action card will be played. And sadly, the detractors will be right in this instance.

            This is a lousy situation to be in, new poster. I’m angry on your behalf. Your employer set you up to fail (and I doubt very much that you were included on that email by accident).

      4. N.J.*

        It is Illegal to make hiring or promotional or work assignments based of race or other protected class status. My impression is that it would still be illegal to make a positive decision based on that, like giving the OP a promotion, just as much as making a negative decision. If the OP complies with this, if and/or when someone finds out she is as culpable as the managers. That doesn’t make it any easier to have that conversation, but I would suggest that it would be helpful to look at it from the framework of complying with the law.

        1. Gaara*

          The OP didn’t make the decision. She is not “as culpable” from a legal standpoint just because she later found out about it.

    4. ZVA*

      Wow, so sorry this happened to you. Can I ask what you want to do? Talk to the managers? Tell your friend? I’m not necessarily advocating either one—just wondering how you’re feeling and what your first instincts are.

      1. new poster with a dilemma*

        I’m not even sure. I never thought anything like this would happen and I have no idea. I feel sick thinking about it but I have no idea how to handle it.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      You could always keep a copy of the email, and if things go sour and you leave, you can give it to the other candidate. They can give it to their lawyer and have an instant lawsuit. And you will have sweat vengeance.

    6. fposte*

      Well, hang on a second–did the email say you were a totally unqualified disaster but they had to promote you? Or did they say something more like Friend is really qualified, but we really need to do better on our diversity?

      I mean, it sucks to get either email, but this isn’t a contest between your friend and you that you unfairly won. You are living in a country (I’m presuming you’re in the U.S.) where people have been promoted for race for years so long as they were white, and we’re only just now starting to undo the skew that has left higher level employment with. Without conscious attempts to promote for diversity, companies tend to get mired in unconscious biases. It’s quite possible it’s better for the employer overall to promote you even if your friend is a strongly qualified candidate too.

      Even if they said it ugly (and I hope they didn’t), this doesn’t have to mean you got unfairly handed something and you should repudiate it. There’s every chance that this was a reasonable decision for them to make and you’re doing a fine job.

      1. new poster with a dilemma*

        They said the only reason I was picked for promotion (there was no applying or competition) was because of my race/me being a visible minority. I was surprised when they told me because there are more qualified people (including my friend mentioned in the email). Ever since I started I have felt in over my head because I don’t have the skills or experience, but in thought maybe I had imposter syndrome. But between the email and someone mentioning that my training is a taking longer than expected I know I was right. If it wasn’t for my skin color I would not have been considered even.

    7. SophieChotek*

      I am so sorry new poster!

      (If it was CC, not blind BCC) surely someone else has noticed that you were cc’d also? – but no one has said anything? (Hoping you didn’t read it?)

      I thought what ZVA wrote: What do you want? What outcome to do you want? is key (to some degree) with how to proceed? Do you still want to work for this company? I know you wrote about imposter syndrome, but do you still want the job knowing what you do now? Do you want your (supportive?) friend to have it instead?

      I agree — you do not need to feel guilty at all. This is on them. You put your application in in good faith.

      1. ZVA*

        Yeah, I think what you want out of this situation is the key to what you’ll do next, LW. My followup questions were going to be: Do you want to stay at this company? Impostor syndrome aside, do you like the job you were promoted into? Can you see yourself succeeding in it and/or enjoying it down the road, even if it takes you a while to get there?

        Please don’t feel guilty, or like you’re taking something away from your friend, no matter what you decide. This is a sh*tty situation, but it’s in no way your fault. I would understand if you kept your head down and said nothing about the email. I’d understand if you felt you couldn’t stay silent. I’d understand if you wanted to leave the company… But please don’t feel that there’s a “wrong” option here or that you’ve wronged anyone. You haven’t.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think that part of the problem is that no matter what OP decides to do, she can’t “UNknow” this happened. The truth is out there and cannot be hidden any more.

          Maybe that is the part to think about, OP, this email throws the company in a whole different light. Now, knowing this, where do you want to be? I am saying this because I am not sure but that my impulse to leave might take over my thinking.

          When I was 46 I was working at a job where my toxic boss decided that I was OLD. She did not try to hide how she felt. My brain left the building and a while later so did the rest of me.

    8. BRR*

      If the email is explicitly clear it was due to race, I would save a copy as back up and go to HR. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure this is illegal.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yep, it’s illegal. You can’t base hiring decisions on race, even in an attempt to correct previous inequities. (You can do other things to correct those inequities though, like putting special effort into building the number of non-white candidates in your applicant pool, setting up programs that you think will be attractive to POC candidates, etc.)

  49. Master Bean Counter*

    So I have a new grandboss on Monday. I’m going to believe he is a sane and reasonable person until proven otherwise. And in a move that’s still baffling me, my boss took a call from a recruiter. In his office at the time we were supposed to have a meeting 15 feet away in a conference room. So I got to sit in the conference room and even though he closed his door I overheard the entire conversation. He’s not happy that he didn’t get promoted and is now looking for new work.
    I now have more information about my boss than I ever wanted. I think the outgoing grandboss is grooming my coworker to eventually take my boss’s position. Which would make me very happy. Neither of us like staying in the office at night to “get things done.” We all have laptops and the ability to work from home. Coworker is with me on actually using that ability to our advantage.
    So here’s to hoping that all the changes coming are going to be positive!

    1. animaniactoo*

      “Trust but verify”.

      Benefit of the doubt, but proceed with caution until you have verification!

  50. BRR*

    There is an absurdly loud sneezer in my office. I work in a completely open office and someone on the other end has these ridiculously loud and long sneezes. I know we all sneeze differently but you can hear where it stops being natural and she seems to be elongating it. It’s incredibly distracting in general but then people talk about it every time it happens. Is there anything anybody can suggest? I know I can’t say stop sneezing. The only thing I could think of is I don’t believe she’s covering her nose/mouth because it’s not muffled at all. But I don’t work near her (or for that matter know who it is) so I feel awkward going someone I really don’t know at all and ask them to sneeze into their arm. Or am I just SOL?

    1. Annie Moose*

      Ahhhh now I’m paranoid it’s me! I’ve had this terrible cold this week and I’ve been sneezing like crazy, and it feels like it rattles the windows every time… okay, now I need to be extra careful I’m not being ridiculous about it!

      Seriously, though, I’m not sure there’s much you can do. If you sat near her, you could maybe say something like, “oh, do you have any kleenex? I have a box here…” or something more direct, but if she’s on the other side of the office and you don’t really know her, you probably will just have to wait it out… :/

    2. Lily in NYC*

      People with crazy loud sneezes do not do it on purpose and they truly cannot control it. If she’s not covering her nose, then yeah, that’s annoying but I don’t think it’s worth saying anything. I can’t imagine she sneezes so often that you can’t do your job well.

      1. fposte*

        Well, they can control it (I say as a loud sneezer by default myself) but they have to first realize that it’s possible; like laughing sounds, sneezing sounds are a deeply ingrained habit, but you can teach yourself not to vocalize. But I still wouldn’t raise it with a co-worker.

        1. fposte*

          (Actually, that’s not true–I can think of situations–like sharing an office with somebody with allergies–where I’d say “Hey, I know it’s automatic, but it really makes me jump when you sneeze because you let out a scream. I’ve heard that’s something that people can sometimes change if they try–would you be willing to try? I promise to fetch you Kleenex.”

      2. BRR*

        It’s not the loudness that I think she could adjust, it’s the length that is clearly exaggerated because you can hear a difference. It’s like ACHOOOOOOoooooo.

    3. LQ*

      I’m a super loud sneezer (so very loud) and if I could just stop with magic? I totally would? If I sneeze frequently it really sucks, it makes my head spin, it makes me feel a little tipy. When I hold the sneezes in? I often get a headache from it, so yeah, I “can” but I really prefer not to because headaches make my job much harder. And most of my coworkers would rather make a snarky comment from 4 aisles away than take twice as long to get back to them. Sorry, I don’t want to, and it hurts me more than it hurts you.

      1. fposte*

        You can learn not to vocalize when you sneeze, though, if that’s part of the problem (which it usually is). Unfortunately, all the links I can find about quiet sneezing (and there are a lot) generally talk about how to stop the sneeze entirely–though they do offer the tip that resisting the big inhale (the “ah” of the “ah-choo”) gives you less air and therefore a quieter sneeze.

        1. WellRed*

          I have a coworker who vocalizes when she sneezes (big emphasis on the CHOOOOO). But, we were on a flight recently and she managed to control that vocalization.

      2. BRR*

        I think I’ve recognized that it’s completely unreasonable t say stop sneezing or change your sneeze. But I’m wondering about asking her to try and muffle it and the length is clearly exaggerated.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You: “Oh goodness, do you need an ambulance?”
          Her: “Of course not, silly person!”
          You: “I have notice that your sneezes are really loud and long. I have never heard anyone sneeze like that, so I thought I better check to make sure things are alright.”

          Or make something up: “You know my cousin, Jane, had really loud and long sneezes like that. Turns out she had profound allergies and really needed help. You might want to get that checked. Most people don’t sneeze really long like that.”
          This one is a good foundation for later, “Oh, still having problems with those sneezes, eh? What did the doc say when you spoke to him??”

          Or tell her thanks to her you won the office pool. You bet her next sneeze would be 46.5 seconds and you were right so you got the money.

    4. Observer*

      You can hear where you THINK it stops being natural.

      And, it’s totally not her fault that people talk about it every time she sneezes. That’s just stupid. If I were going to say anything, it would be to ask all the gossips to stop chewing over the same old thing for the umpteeth time.

    5. Victoria, Please*

      I’m laughing my head off here because my husband sneezes SO LOUDLY! But he did himself one better: he used to live in a tropical city and one evening someone sneezed such a mighty sneeze that all the dogs in the neighborhood started barking. Then the dogs in the surrounding streets started barking! And then the *next* dogs! So the entire city had a wave of dogs barking due to this one sneeze.

  51. SquirrelGirl*

    My coworker and I became pretty close when we moved into the same office and he’s pretty much an open book. Lately he’s been talking about much he hates his manager (which I totally understand, she micromanages to the extreme and as a result it looks like he isn’t making any improvements when he is), my suggestion every time is to go to our department head, discuss his issues and talk about switching to a different manager. But he insists it will do nothing and that he just wants to quit and find a new job, except he can’t because he’s in the middle of moving and can’t lose his source of income.
    I find this super frustrating, partially because that’s the opposite reaction I’ve had talking to upper management (they’ve always been super receptive and willing to move people around for better results) and this manager has had complaints against her before so I think he would be believed. But mostly I’m frustrated because I don’t want to hear about it anymore! He won’t take my advice, but won’t quit, and I just can’t listen to the same complaints over and over again.
    Any advice on how to tell my coworker this?

    1. Dawn*

      “Fergus, I’ve reached my limit on you complaining about your situation with Sansa. Either go talk to upper management like I suggested, or stop complaining to me about it.” And then don’t let him complain about it to you any more by shutting him down if he gets wound up!

    2. justsomeone*

      Tell him you don’t want to hear it anymore! “Fergus, I’ve suggested to you that you talk to Upper Manager about this. Since you won’t actually go do anything about it, I’m tired of having the same conversation over and over. How about those Teapot Reports?”

    3. animaniactoo*

      “Okay, I get that you feel stuck and you don’t want to do anything to change the situation at this point. However, I need to let you know that you’ve filled your venting quota with me and *I* can’t take it anymore, so please find someone else to talk to about this. Fwiw, I do think it’s at least worth trying to talk to upper management. You might be right, it might not help. But I think you should at least try.”

      “But it won’t change anything! [reason][reason][reason]”

      “As I said – I think you’re wrong, but it’s your choice. Just please don’t bring it up with me again.”

    4. SquirrelGirl*

      Thanks for the responses! I’ll definitely try these out and put my foot down when he starts it up again

    5. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Good suggestions above.

      My grandfather used to answer those kinds of things with a deadpan, “Wow, you’re right. There is no solution. You’re in a situation that is impossible to resolve.” It usually got the point across. :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        LOVE this.

        I worked with a guy like this and yeah, that is pretty much what you have to tell them.

  52. Good_Intentions*

    Cheerleading in a disorganized organization

    OK, I am in the crunch leading up to Election Day 2016.

    I received an email 20 minutes ago indicating that people in my position need to be more positive when dealing our student workers. I already respond to their queries within the hour, thank them for all their efforts every time we speak, and congratulate them on all their partnerships, events, outreach efforts, sign-ups, etc.

    Is there something else I should be doing?

    Are such emails just par for the course when so close to a major event such as an election?

    Please share your thoughts.

    Many Thanks!

    1. Dawn*

      Ignore the email. It’s one of those dumb management tactics where instead of talking directly to the people who aren’t doing what they should be doing they send out a blanket email to everyone in the hopes that it’ll sink in by osmosis. Which always goes right over the heads of the people who need to read it the most, and it always upsets people like you who *are* doing what you should be doing so then you get paranoid you need to be doing more.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Dawn,

        Thanks so much for your email and support.

        Honestly, it threw me for a loop, especially that my student workers bragged to one of the higher ups about how responsive and helpful I’ve been.

        Again, I genuinely appreciate your insight. I feel a lot less paranoid now.

        1. SarahKay*

          Yep, Dawn is spot on! It’s a horrible tactic because of course it only ever worries the conscientious person who is already doing a great job!

        2. SophieChotek*

          I agree. It’s one of those generic things — so annoying and frustrating to the conscentiuos though.

      2. Chaordic One*

        Yes, Dawn is on target with her advice.

        This tactic is closely related to the blanket email that thanks a whole department for the good job they’ve done. The people who haven’t done anything, think they’re great; and the ones who’ve carried the department feel kind of disappointed and often leave the organization.

    2. Murphy*

      At my old job we got emails like that to the whole department saying “everyone needs to do X” but everyone knew that the subtext was “somebody told us that somebody didn’t do x, so we’re just telling everybody to do it rather than talk to person who may or may not have done x”. Partially bad management on my old job’s part, but generally they said that if one person needed to hear something, probably everybody could benefit from it.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Lily in NYC,

        The email was a template from the main office that went individually to each state coordinator. There are at least four other people with my title in different battleground states.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Oh, good. I bet it was really meant for one of the other coordinators but they didn’t want to single the person out so they sent it to all of you. Which they shouldn’t have done, in my opinion. Because of exactly what happened – the person taking it most to heart (you) is the person who didn’t need the reminder. I totally get why it’s bugging you – there’s nothing worse than feeling like you are being reprimanded unjustly.

  53. AvonLady Barksdale*

    This week I started a part-time retail job. It’s a little too part-time for my tastes– not a lot of hours– but it will get me out of the house and put a little cash in my pocket. The store is great, the people are really nice, the clientele is lovely and extremely understanding of my newbie ineptitude.

    In the corporate space… Two weeks ago I met with someone who later sent me an email telling me that he would be creating a position and I should apply. I responded to his email, but I haven’t had a response since then. I’m trying really, really hard not to get too concerned. He asked me to be patient for a couple of weeks while he ironed out details– should I follow up next week? Or just let it be? I don’t think he’s forgotten me (per Alison’s advice and previous columns, people don’t generally forget about top candidates), but of course I’m curious to know if they’re planning to move forward.

  54. self employed*

    My friend wants to start a small business to make a few hundred extra dollars a month. She will sell gluten-free baking mix for about $8-10 each. Any suggestions on marketing/packaging/advice? I suggested posting to Facebook friends and family to share; what else can she do?

    1. Stephanie*

      I know in some cities, there are basically time-share commercial kitchens where people like your friend can work. Perhaps she can look into working in one of those–she could get more suitable facilities for running her business.

    2. Adam V*

      This is sort of off-topic, since it’s not really workplace-related.

      That said, maybe she could try contacting gluten-free baking blogs and seeing if they’d like to try her mix and let her know what they think – she might get a blog post about it and raise awareness that way.

      1. self employed*

        I appreciate posters keeping stuff on topic, but I believe it is work-related. It’s not a hobby she is pursuing, but a small business. Not all work happens in workplaces. :)

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If there’s a local independent cookware/bakeware store or a small local gourmet store, she can talk to them. They might be able to give her advice or she can work out a plan to give out samples at their stores. I do think she should try some packaging first, though!

    4. JLK in the ATX*

      First, learn the Cottage Laws in her state re: marketing and PR (ingredients list, laws re: stating something is gluten-free and packaging requirements and prep requirements: home ok/not ok? must be in a commercial kitchen?)

      Second, even with a side business, becoming smart on how to run a small business is important. Enroll in a small business non-profit or city program and learn how to market/sell beyond social media (incredibly hard and unreliable with daily changes). Small business – of any kind – requires face to face selling, networking, and good marketing that relies on several channels of communication. SCORE is a great, free, place for assistance. https://www.score.org

      Packaging relies on a brand, logo, value proposition, and product characteristics. This comes from knowing who her ideal gluten-free customer is. Everyone is not her ideal customer, although some will buy from her because of their personal relationship with her. Pricing is an important part of this aspect, too.

      I’m a small business owner (not the same business I’ve discussed in previous posts/other days) but also work in non-profit.

      1. Manders*

        Oooh yeah, if she’s selling a product meant for consumption, she needs to make sure that she is 100% clear on any applicable laws about how food needs to be prepared, packaged, stored, and shipped. And if she’s shipping it out of state, or even out of the country, she’s got a whole lot of research ahead of her.

        For marketing, does she want to sell this product locally (at craft fairs, farmer’s markets, etc) or does she want an online storefront and the option of advertising and shipping items anywhere? Those variables are going to change the game quite a bit as a marketer.

        (Also: as a general rule, it’s a good idea to err on the side of expecting less than you’d like from family and friends on friends when it comes to social media marketing. Just because people love you as a person doesn’t mean they’re thrilled to shill your product, and you can damage relationships by being too pushy. There’s an art to marketing on social media, and it involves building up an audience for your brand that’s separate from your personal accounts.)

    5. Anonymoosetracks*

      Number one suggestion is some sort of insurance against product liability lawsuits. I feel like a lot of people don’t think about this, but especially if you’re marketing to an allergy-prone population (I would imagine there are a higher percentage of people with severe celiac in her customer base than in the general public!) it seems like there could be an awful lot of risk if there were ever any accidental cross-contamination issues- or, given our litigious society, if someone even just accused her of having cross-contamination issues. Or any issue, really.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup – she’ll need a CGL policy, a business owners policy, and possibly product recall insurance.

    6. Venus Supreme*

      She should check out any local farmers’ markets, or bazaars, or any place where she can have her own space in a marketplace! I think meeting face-to-face initially with the potential customers will help her in the long run. I’ve met independent shop owners at market-style places, then found them online, and then became a loyal customer. Also get a business name and claim that username on all social media platforms!

    7. Tuckerman*

      Good for her. If she’s advertising GF she’s going to want to be explicit about what that means. If she uses a shared commercial kitchen, there’s a risk of cross contamination and she’ll want to put that disclaimer on the packaging (she will probably want to consult a lawyer).
      She also might want to look at competitors’ pricing for GF baking mixes. If they are available at a lower cost, why would they want to buy her mix? She’ll want to think about why her product will stand out from the competition.

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      $8-10?! As a gluten-free celiac sufferer, unless she’s slipping winning Powerball tickets in the mix, I would never buy baking mix that expensive. You can get delicious store bought GF mixes anywhere from $2-5.

      1. Honeybee*

        I was wondering if I was the only one thinking this. $8-10 is a lot even for high-end gluten-free cake mix; I’ve never seen one in stores for over $6.

    9. ..Kat..*

      I recommend she contact the local celiac society. (Google celiac and her city or name of nearest bigger city.)

      Also, does she really know how to do GlutenFree? It is not just about ingredients, but also preparation. For example, if she uses a shared kitchen, she needs to clean the counter and wash dishes and utensils meticulously. There could be traces of gluten on these items that would contaminate her products. Not trying to be pedantic, but I can’t tell you how many times I have been “glutenized” by well meaning but misunderstanding people. As a small business, she will only get one chance in the GlutenFree world. If she accidentally contaminates someone, her business will crater.

      1. ..Kat..*

        With respect to the pricing comment above, I would pay $10 for a tasty, quality product. And that is what small business is about. A small business can’t compete with low-price, mass production. It’s the quality, boutique market that she is going for.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I eat at boutique gluten free bakeries – the price of their mixes are nowhere near that high. It may be regional too, but I’m side-eying that price.

  55. Stephanie*

    Hi everyone! School is still…going. Yeah. But exciting news–I have in internship interview on Tuesday! Wish me luck.

  56. Princess Carolyn*

    How do you determine if you’re fairly paid when you can’t find much data? I’m a proofreader at an advertising agency in a relatively small market, so sites like Glassdoor aren’t very helpful because there are only a handful of agencies in the city and not all of them even have proofreaders. There’s data for people who do something totally different in advertising, and there’s data for people who do proofreading and copy editing in totally different industries and settings. It’s an enormous range.

    I know that I need more money to, y’know, live. And I know I make about $5k more than my agency’s minimum salary (for all positions). I just have no idea if I can make a case for a raise, or what I could reasonably ask for if I ever changed agencies.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you check salaries for different cities, and then try to do a rough translation based on the general differences in cost of living between your city and the other cities?

      1. Princess Carolyn*

        I’ve done something along that line today and was horrified to find proofreaders and copy editors in New York and Chicago making less than $50k a year. I’m in a low-COL area making $40k.

        That’s my fear: that the market rate for my skills and experience really is a pittance, and I’ll have to find someone to overpay me in order to pay off my student loans and buy a house and maybe have kids and such.

        2. NoTurnover*

          Unfortunately, that sounds about right. I work in Chicago and that’s about what I would expect.

          To be completely honest, if I were you I would work on expanding my skills in other areas, especially if you’re young. Proofreading is a good skill to have, and one that I personally value, but the market for proofreading, especially as a full-time job rather than a freelance option, is not large and will probably continue to shrink.

          Sorry to not have more positive advice!

    2. Lily in NYC*

      I would look at as many job ads in that field as possible on a site like indeed.com (for your geographic area). I know many don’t list salaries but enough do that you should be able to get an idea after looking every few days for a while.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I know somebody who does hardcopy proofreading and the official title is “production editor,” so look at salaries under that title, too. (Since she works closely with graphic designers and the creative team, I think it’s considered a different type of proofreading and might be more similar to what you’re doing. Do you routinely argue with designers about whether the look of the word is more important than the correct spelling? Hint: it’s always spelling.)

        If you proofread anything posted online, it might fall under “content management” (which is a pretty big umbrella…).

    3. SeekingBetter*

      I’d be lucky if I can ever guess the range right. It’s like all the market rate pay sites that show data on it like indeed.com, payscale.com, etc. seem to have salaries WAY above what most of my local area and state organizations would be willing to offer. Like, $9-24 K off.

    4. Lady Dedlock*

      There can be a huge range of salaries for editorial work depending on a number of factors, including the industry of the company you’re working for (I switched from arts to research and got a 15K bump with that job move) and your level of experience. Proofreader jobs might pay less than, say, Senior Proofreader or Proofreading Manager jobs without the work being substantially different (my partner held the latter title at one agency without actually managing anyone).

      If your salary is stuck at your current level, you could transition into copyediting, which pays a bit more than proofreading. Or, when the time comes to move on, you could look for other related jobs that use your skills; if you can proofread, you have good command of language and good attention to detail, which means there are a lot of communications jobs you could do.

    5. Central Perk Regular*

      I don’t know how helpful this info is, but when I first started in the ad business about nine years ago, I worked as a proofreader in an agency. I made $31K/year. My agency was in a fairly small market, too.

  57. Nee grad*

    So when I started my career, I got hired at department A because my current department could not offer me position at that time since client didn’t sign their contract. So, I spend like 3 months in department A. Then, one of the company asked me to transfer to my current department since client signed contract. I accepted. How do I indicate my time spend in department A?
    It is not like i randomly decided to apply at dept B after 3 months. It that they (vp) decided to put me there waiting till the position at dept B became available and dept A said I could stay if I wanted….So how do I explain this?

    1. ACA*

      I’d just do something like “Teapot Designer (Temporary)” – it explains why you were only there for a few months without making you seem like a job-hopper.

    2. LawCat*

      Do you have a different job title or just moved departments? Why not just list the company name and not drill down to the department level?

  58. Amber Rose*

    There’s a Cracked article where he tries 7 or 8 home remedies for colds. It won’t help your illness but it might make you feel better anyway.

    More on topic: I just got back from my leadership in safety course and it was pretty fun and also kinda distressing. We got all the gory details.

    I was the only lady in the class and one of the dudes said I looked like a certain actress/model. Awkward! I’m not used to that. Thankfully my group took me seriously.

  59. N.J.*

    Our work just started a gift drive for one of the larger Christian charities to distribute Christmas gifts in impoverished countries. I like participating in these kinds of things, when the goal is to help the less fortunate or brighten a child’s life. I picked up the materials a few minutes ago and expressed that I was excited to participate to a few coworkers. I was curious, as I had heard of the charity but didn’t know tons about them, so I was just browsing their website online. It appears that the gifts are distributed at centers and events that amount to evangelical events to promote Christianity and “convert” participants, for lack of a better word. I am Christian myself, but have conflicted views on direct evangelism. How in the heck do I now bow out of participating, if I decide I am not comfortable doing so? After I have already said how exited I was to participate and several people heard or saw me doing this?? I’m guessing I can just leave the materials in my office and place them back when no one is paying attention but any other ideas. I don’t want to bring attention to my personal beliefs on evangelism in the process or look like some kind of jerk for not wanting now to send toys to children.

    1. Adam V*

      Just say “oh, I already donated toys to a charity through my church / my husband’s work / my neighbor’s kids / etc”.

    2. T3k*

      Maybe you could say something like you decided to donate directly to a local homeless or women’s shelter instead as a way out? Nobody in their right mind would blame you for still wanting to help out others. If pushed about why, you could just say you felt those locally need just as much help, but I doubt anyone would push for a reason.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Agree with advice. I usually just say I’ve already donated/supported (if it’s true).
      Unless they are really pushy, that usually makes them leave happy.

  60. Murphy*

    On a positive note, I told my boss I was pregnant this week and he reacted very positively. Told me to let him know what I needed and that work came second. Also, he asked me a few days later if my news was secret before he mentioned it to anybody else. It isn’t, but I greatly appreciated him asking first. Was a little worried about that, but it was a good outcome :)

    1. Elle*

      I remember being so nervous about that, luckily my boss took it very well…he was actually pretty excited about it, even though he figured it out before I actually told him. So glad yours reacted positively too! There are some good bosses out there.

    2. E*

      I scared my boss nearly to death last year when I told him I was pregnant. I guess from the serious look on my face he thought I was going to tell him I was quitting my job. He was much relieved that he only had to do without me for a couple of months instead.

  61. Jennifer*

    So last week a coworker of mine basically ripped me several new holes for being cranky, having a bad attitude, ruining our office atmosphere, etc. And yet a few days ago, she got into a snit about her title (apparently she didn’t like it) and then was suddenly a little grumbly cloud for the last hour, and made a crack about my eating so that I felt like I had to flee into the break room to finish eating my meal.

    I really just wanted to say in that moment, “Look, EVERYBODY HAS THEIR CRANKY MOMENTS HERE, you included, get off my back, please?” except I figured there was no way in hell that wouldn’t do anything but only make it worse. But seriously, does telling someone everything you hate about them actually make things better? Do you really think it’s going to? Because all I can do is think of the litany of complaints against me and how I have to contort myself to please people after that. Which still doesn’t work. Oh well, she’s on vacation at this point so I have a few days off from that. But apparently now I can’t eat around her, in addition to all my other personality crimes.

    1. AnotherAnony*

      It’s her issue, not yours. It’s her issue, not yours. Keep repeating that to yourself, seriously. Since your co-worker was grumbling about her title, she might have other things in her life that are going on. Not an excuse for her behavior, but a reason for it. Don’t become her punching bag, try to discuss it with her calmly if it continues. If she doesn’t get it or if it escalates, talk to a manager or someone higher up.

      1. Jennifer*

        I agree it is her issue. I just don’t like it when she makes it MY issue. I will continue taking the high road and not saying anything.

        She is very nice the rest of the time, so I was just freaking blindsided. I think it’s another case of “everyone is miserable here and then they take it out on everyone else,” unfortunately.

    2. Girasol*

      Have read several political articles this week saying that the best way to lose an argument is to start out with “You’re wrong.” It sounds like she’s taking out her attitude issues on you and you’re taking the high road in not dishing it right back. Good for you! You don’t sound much like a personality criminal.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Ugh, she sounds awful. But don’t change your behavior – because she is the one being unreasonable, not you. Next time she says something snarky, just look at her and say something vague like “Ok” or “noted” and then disengage. DO NOT run away from her. She wants a reaction and you are giving her one.

    4. fposte*

      Yeah, that’s a way to put yourself immediately in the wrong.

      If you think there’s any chance she’s not just speaking for herself, though, you might want to check in with your manager on the topic.

  62. Rebecca*

    Wee! One more week, and I’m outta here!

    I can’t wait to start my new job. I’ve been working on documenting everything for my coworkers who will be absorbing my work. I feel bad for them, but I have struggled under this workload for so long, now I just can’t wait to be free of it totally. To be fair, I pointed this out to my manager at least a dozen times, and she left me to struggle for 2 1/2 years with no real help, all the while employing the Captain Picard style of management “MAKE IT SO”. I tried everything, asking “please tell me which items need to be put aside, A, B, or C, because I can do 2 but not 3, only to get an answer of “you need to make sure it’s all done, because I can’t tell my boss that I can’t handle this”. OK. So, since she wouldn’t handle my excessive workload, I did – by finding a new job. Which, is what she told me to do, as in, if you don’t like it here, feel free to work someplace else.

    Now the issue of the “exit interview” has reared its ugly head. It’s being asked for by HR, not my manager, and my first tendency was to just say “I have a new opportunity, thank you so much, okaythxgbye, and be done with it, but now I wonder if I should be brutally honest. My manager was told by management that she will be retiring at the end of the year, with severance (not her choice). At this point, stating why I am leaving (issues with supervisor is one of the options I can check) is a moot point, as I am leaving, she has been asked to leave, so why bother? Another question asked “was your supervisor fair and reasonable”. Oh boy. I have to fill out the form and send it back prior to the discussion next week. I guess I have the weekend to think about it.

    In the meantime, wee!! New challenges, here I come! I can’t wait to dive in and apply my skills and background to my new position. My new HR rep told me that my coworkers are excited that I’m going to be working with them. It feels good to be wanted.

    1. Girasol*

      Congratulations!

      I share your ambivalence about exit interviews. I was mulling over exit feedback when I received the exit survey from HR and read the questions. Mostly they wanted feedback on new employee orientation, which had been ten years before with people who were no longer with the company. It seemed so clueless that it looked like they were just going through the motions. An attached note said that I might ask for an in-person interview if I wanted. If *I* wanted? That hinted that the value they saw in exit communication wasn’t in any wisdom I might share but in letting me blow off steam so as to not badmouth the company later. I chose no feedback. Your situation may be completely different, but I share that since it was rather eye-opening for me.

    2. Mockingjay*

      I think it depends on the company and the HR department, and your relationship with them.

      For most jobs, I’ve simply stated, “so long, and thanks for all the fish.” It’s just easier. If people are leaving in droves, HR can identify the common denominator boss anyway.

      For my one Job Hop, I had an in-depth conversations with HR regarding Tywin Lannister. They weren’t surprised, he had been causing problems for years and they needed input so they could force his retirement or relocate him. [The company eventually gave him a made-up, seat-warmer title (*cough* err, promotion) and no staff. I think he owned controlling stock so they couldn’t simply boot him out.]

      And good luck in New Job!

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I would be honest but I know many people will disagree with me. I never thought these did any good, but we finally got rid of a horrendous EVP because three superstars in a row quit and were honest that the EVP was the only reason they were leaving. They all got big counter-offers to stay and they all refused and again made it clear that there was not enough money in the world to get them to stay if EVP were still here. Our awesome new president then did an investigation into EVP and he got fired for being an incompetent buffoon.

    4. AshK434*

      Congrats on your new job!!

      From my experience, exit interviews are a waste of time. When I left my last company, HR pretty much said (in a nudge-nudge, wink-wink sort of way) that they didn’t do anything with the data. Obviously that’s not true at all companies but do with that what you will…

  63. Emilia Bedelia*

    Here’s a hypothetical question that I’ve been thinking about, somewhat inspired by the clingy coworkers question from yesterday:
    Is it inappropriate to ask a coworker to pet sit while you’re away?
    I’ve been pondering getting a cat, but one thing that’s been stopping me is the fact that I don’t know anyone who would be able to take care of it if I were on vacation. My instincts say that asking co-workers is a bad idea for a wide variety of reasons (Having coworkers in my house, while I’m away? I shudder.) On the other hand, if they take my cat to their house to watch, I would be worried about my cat hurting someone, adjusting to their house, causing damages, etc…. basically, there’s a lot of reasons that this could go wrong.
    I’m curious if anyone has ever been in this situation before, however, and what your thoughts are!

    1. Kristinemc*

      I would rather find a neighborhood pet sitter (NextDoor can be good for this) or pay a pet sitter than to ask someone in my office. I feel like I am more private that some people, though – but I wouldn’t feel comfortable with co-workers in my house without me there.

    2. Boris*

      I think your instinct is correct. If you know someone well, are friendly with them outside of work and know they like cats, I think taking them up on an offer would be fine. Otherwise, I think it’s just a little outside normal workplace boundaries. Like you say, they’d have a key to your home, and be looking after one of your most precious possessions.

      Are there any professional pet sitters where you are? I think that would be a better option.

    3. Not Karen*

      First off, cats need to be pet-sit in their own house. They don’t do well with changes in environment like dogs do.

      But to answer your actual question, I think it’s fine if it’s a coworker you do or would hang out with outside of work besides. I also might be careful to involve money/payment. I’ve exchanged cat-sitting with a previously coworker that I occasionally hung out with and it was fine.

      1. SJ*

        yeah — I watched a friend’s cat in grad school when she was away on vacation, only she brought the cat to my apartment because I lived in Manhattan and she lived in Brooklyn, and as sweet as the cat was, he peed all over my apartment for like a week. EVERYWHERE. I couldn’t keep sheets on the bed, I couldn’t keep my purse on my desk, nothing. I know it was because he didn’t know the environment. It was a goddamn nightmare.

        (on the other hand, I can take my cat anywhere at all and she’ll explore and be totally fine with it within 30 minutes, but she’s unusual.)

    4. Princess Carolyn*

      This community tends to lean toward keeping relationships with coworkers mostly professional, but it’s going to depend on your office and your relationships. This would not be an odd request from some of my coworkers — several of us are young women who relocated for this job and don’t have family or other friends in the area. It would be weird coming from my boss (or from a direct report, if I had one), and it would be weird coming from a coworker I’m not close with.

      FWIW, asking someone to feed and water your cat once a day is also a smaller request than asking them to take care of your dog, which would require some potty time and exercise in addition to the food and water (and this would likely require stopping by more than once a day).

      1. Princess Carolyn*

        Just remembered: There’s an online service for this called Rover. I wonder if there’s a kitty equivalent?

    5. justsomeone*

      I’ve had a coworker pet sit for me before. It was NBD. I had mentioned that we were going out of town for Christmas and I needed to find a cat sitter. He knew he only lived a few minutes from my apartment and offered. He insisted on doing it for free, but we paid him with a gift card to a store I know he frequents. Since he offered, I was comfortable taking him up on it. If he hadn’t offered, I wouldn’t have even thought to ask. We’ve since switched to a neighbor but it wasn’t a big deal to us to have my coworker cat sit.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        This is kind of the situation that I envision- I can’t imagine directly asking someone to catsit for me, but I live very close to work so if I mentioned that I needed a cat sitter, I could see someone asking if I wanted them to stop in while I was away (and I’d definitely want to make it up to them somehow as well!)

        If I were being sneaky I would ask my coworkers whether they had any suggestions on good cat sitting services in the area and see if that would inspire any volunteers ;)

        These responses are helpful though- I’m not looking to get a cat anytime soon so this won’t be an issue for a while, but certainly a lot of good things to keep in mind.

        1. justsomeone*

          I find often that the info-gathering ask is pretty productive for me. I ask around for suggestions on services. I either get an offer “Oh, I can do that for you!” or actual suggestions on where to look for said service. It’s usually a win either way.

          1. JaneB*

            My cat goes to a cattery when I travel – she’s getting older and has always liked to be around people, and I’m happier knowing no one accidentally let her slip out the door. The cattery owner is lovely and although my cat dislikes the journey she always settles in well – I take a piece of bedding she’s been sleeping in recently so she has something homely, but really she much prefers the electrically heated bed provided!! Worth every penny for the peace of mind.

            But when I was renting & couldn’t have a pet, I cat sat for a colleague who lived nearby, and it was great! I loved spending time every evening playing with and brushing their cat, and caring for him was a real pleasure when I couldn’t have my own fluff ball…

    6. Venus Supreme*

      Hmmm… Emilia Bedelia, if you’re in the NJ area I’d love to cat-sit! Haha.

      My office culture is VERY pet-friendly and I know people have pet-sat for one another without a problem. Alternatively, a few college friends pet-sat while at school to make a couple extra bucks. So if you’re near a university I don’t think it would hurt to throw out some feelers in a Craigslist ad or something.

    7. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I used to cat sit for a coworker who I was really good at-work friends with. (We never hung out or communicated in any way outside of work, but we had a pretty friendly relationship during working hours.) It was kind of weird being in his house (I wasn’t able to host the cat in my home), but I don’t think he felt weird about it. Or if he did, he never said anything.

    8. Damn it Hardison!*

      Find a professional pet sitter. Ask at your vet office for a recommendation. I had mixed success with friends/coworkers/neighbors. I have a terrific pet sitter now for my 20 and 16 year old cats and it makes it so much easier to go away and not worry.

  64. Elle*

    Well this is a new one. I was literally just in the bathroom in one of the stalls *ahem* doing my business (I hadn’t been in there longer than about 3 minutes) when my co-worker walks in to the bathroom and tells me that she waiting me for in my office. How awkward. Does anyone else find this a tad strange??

    1. Dawn*

      Uh. Yeah that is really, really weird. I’d be tempted to say “Yeah, Sansa, haven’t you read the book? Everybody poops!” Just make it really awkward so maybe she’ll realize how ridiculous she was being.

    3. Murphy*

      I cannot abide talking in the bathroom when one or more parties to the conversation are in a stall. That is sacred alone time.

    4. Elle*

      And to make it even worse, it was to ask me a question she’s already asked twice yesterday! She said she just wanted to “make sure.”

    5. Leatherwings*

      What the eff? What did she expect would come of that? “Thanks Marge, now that you said that I’ll just wrap this up quicker”

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      The discussion would be about boundaries first when I got back to my office. Then the question would be answered.

    7. Pwyll*

      Ewwwww.

      One of the assistants we let go (for many reasons) used to do this every time someone called in. As in, she’d answer the phone and then go to the bathroom to say, “Tom is in the phone for you.” When the call was for a male, she’d literally open the door to the bathroom but stand outside and yell in. No matter how many times she was told not to. It became A Thing when her boss, exasperatedly said, “You know what, why don’t you go bring the phone in here so I can answer his questions while I’m taking a shit.”

      I really wish I could understand the thought process that goes into that behavior.

      2. Natalie*

        What’s so mystifying to me about this is that she persisted in doing it even after being told not to. I guess I can understand a green employee not getting it their first week and thinking they need to interrupt people in the bathroom, but why on earth did she keep doing it once corrected? That is just strange.

        1. fposte*

          I’m writing inner monologues. “I don’t have time to wait around for people to come to the phone whenever they please–I have to get on to other things, and too bad for them if they don’t like it.” “I know they said not to, but this one sounds *really* important with its great deal on toner and all.”

        2. Pwyll*

          The literal answer we received was “Well, the guy on the phone asked to speak with you.” And we’d say, “So say that he’s unavailable.” And her response was “But how was I supposed to know he was unavailable?”

          And this wasn’t someone new to the workforce, either. Just insanity.

          1. Renee*

            Our remote sales guy called to talk to someone in the office and I said that he was unavailable. Sales guy decided to argue about how it was really important he speak with him and he has to be available and I had to explain to him what “unavailable” means. Seriously, how do people not know that it probably means they’re in the bathroom?

    8. BRR*

      Yes. It’s completely inappropriate and unprofessional. I would let them know to not do it again. It’s not like you can go any faster.

    9. Chaordic One*

      If you’d been in there for more than 20 minutes or so, I could understand someone checking to see if you were alright. (And you probably would be, but people do get sick sometimes.)

      In the very rare situation that you had a call from a family member and it was an emergency, I could possibly understand it.

      But as you describe it, it is just plain odd.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s rude, but I have seen it before so I refuse to wear their awkwardness for them.

      I would have just told her, “No, you are standing in the bathroom right now. You are not in my office.This is the bathroom.” I would know for a fact that I needed to explain the difference in the two rooms to her.

  65. Aurora Leigh*

    How do you fit in with a new group of co-workers? What do you talk to them about? I’m the new one in a small dept where everyone’s been here 10+ years and is 10+ years older than me. Help!

    1. TheSkrink*

      Inquire and share about bland, inoffensive topics that you hear being discussed in the office–tv, weather, traffic, restaurants, etc.

      1. Aurora Leigh*

        See that’s the thing — everything they talk about seems to be medical issues, the obutuaries, political opinions that just upset me . . . or sometimes their kids or grandkids. I talk about my pets, but that just seems to bore them. No one’s talking about tv, movies, books, or music like we did at my old workplace. I feel really out of place!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think give it 3-6 months. You can talk about their stuff and toss out tidbits of your stuff here and there. It will change, just give it time. And yes, it can seem like it is all about them and for the moment it is. It will get better.

  66. Samantha*

    So, question for those in agencies? How long do you guys wait for promotion to occur? Agencies are famous for the fact that you can get promoted within a year…What did you guys do ?
    My job is analytics heavy and in new department and , for difference of other departments, a lot of what I do is project based and I often have to figure out stuff on my own. I worried that I won’t get any promotion since I don’t have much in terms of support from other people and since , I have to figure things out, it takes me a long time to compete this project. So, thoughts?

  67. HannahS*

    I have a question about studying on your own time to get better at your job. I see it recommended a lot, but I wanted to check if my instincts were right in my situation. I work part time as a tutor at a tutoring school, making a bit above minimum wage, and people tend to stay here for less than a year while we apply for better jobs. My boss has been pressuring me to learn grade 10-12 math so that I can teach it, (I took it, I just don’t remember it) and I decided not to. It would be hours of unpaid work that wouldn’t net me a raise, and might only get me a few extra hours of work. It’s not reasonable for her to expect that, right?

    1. Manders*

      No, I don’t think that’s a reasonable expectation. I think studying on your own time means either 1) putting a few hours per week into keeping up with what’s new in your field, or 2) gaining a significant new skill that you plan to use in your career for a while.

      Unless you intend to be a tutor long-term, why would you put so much unpaid time into learning a skill you won’t be using for much longer?

    2. Elle*

      If it’s not something that you are going to be able to use to further your career, or get a raise or something like that, than I wouldn’t do it either. I spent a few intense months studying for my field’s certification, but it’s a big deal to have one in that it will give me a leg up if I ever need to leave my current position, plus I got a raise because of it. So it was a good ROI for me.

      1. HannahS*

        Thank, yeah, I’ve just wrote the MCAT and am staring down the barrel of the GRE and I just can’t stomach studying for something that won’t benefit me long term.

  68. Boris*

    Hi all,

    Can I ask for suggestions from the smart people here? I’m writing a person specification, and I’m struggling to translate the type of person I want into the kind of language university HR will accept. I want someone conscientious and methodical, the type of person who will be detail oriented in a very thorough way. They’ll need to be able to deal with a lot of data, keep track of it meticulously and generally keep excellent records.

    How would you phrase that? None of my attempts quite get it across (it’s Friday afternoon).

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “You should be conscientious and methodical. You’ll need to be able to process significant amounts of incoming data, keep track of it meticulously, and generally keep excellent records, so we’re looking for someone with a track record of high attention to detail and air-tight organization.”

  69. ruff orpington*

    How would you all deal with a temporary employment situation? I’m planning on going to graduate school in fall 2017 (already reached out to PIs, am competitive). While my current job is amazing (I get to do the research I plan to do in graduate school and beyond with wonderful people), there’s limited funding. Unless a grant comes through, my position will end at the end of the calendar year. I’ll leave with publications in press, and great relationships. But what would you suggest doing for money in the 6-8 month interim? Is it better to only apply for temporary jobs (that aren’t likely to be directly in line with my goals) or apply to others with the intent of leaving in the fall? I don’t want to burn bridges.

    1. Adam V*

      I think you’d burn the bridge if you applied for a job early in the year, never mentioned grad school, and then quit in August/September to go. They’d think you never intended to stay long-term.

      Either look for temp jobs or make it explicit that you’re going to be leaving if you get accepted to grad school.

    2. Newby*

      You could ask your current PI if they know of anyone that needs a temporary tech. You could also try to set up a temporary tech position with the lab you will be working in for grad school.

      1. ruff orpington*

        Thanks for the advice! I’ve talked with some other PIs at a local university that do work adjacent to mine– one seems really open to at least letting me sit in on classes and lab meetings. So at the very least, I can keep up my skills while doing other work, if need be.

        How would you suggest going about the second suggestion? I’m not sure about which school I’ll end up attending (I realistically will wait to meet other lab members, visit after any acceptances, etc…), and I –hopefully– will get to make a choice by April or so. I imagine that if need be, I can see if I can start in early summer, either as a tech, or through TA/RA fellowships. Would it be appropriate to reach out earlier than that?

        1. TL -*

          That is not really done in my field (but you would also be doing rotations so you wouldn’t know your lab in the first year. and interviews, so you’d visit before acceptance.)

          What’s the norm in your field?

    3. TL -*

      If you have a good reputation and a well-connected PI, you should be able to find someone who’s willing to take you on for a short amount of time. (Or, heck, find some part-time jobs and loaf a little bit or go back home or on an extended vacation if you can.)

  70. not so super-visor*

    just a Friday rant: an employee came to me yesterday absolutely enraged that the address change that she gave me a month ago hadn’t been updated on her retirement account and implied that I hadn’t put the change through. I confirmed that it had been sent and that I’d received confirmation from HR. I asked if the change was reflected on her pay stub, but she wasn’t sure since she does all of that online and didn’t have login info with her. I spent the majority of the day getting the run-around from HR about how the change process works and then went around HR to confirm with payroll that change had been made with them within 24 hours of when I had submitted the form. At the end of the day, HR finally gets back to me with all of the same information that I’ve already learned plus admitting that they believe that the file that the sent into our corporate office may have been corrupted and that’s why they didn’t get the change information. I was assured by the HR director at our location that she had personally changed the information and that it should be reflected in employee’s online account within 24 hours. This morning, I came into more ranting from the employee about how clearly no one here could do anything right — the HR director had put the wrong street name in the retirement correction (although it was correct on the change form), so it was still wrong, and the employee still couldn’t get her disbursement.
    Can’t win for trying…

    1. Adam V*

      A) It sounds to me like your employee has some anger issues if an address change is “enraging” them, even if it’s causing them actual money-related issues. Anger never improves the situation, and is totally out of place in a workplace setting. (And I say that as someone who was yelled at by the boss of my last company when he didn’t like a demo I helped with. That’s the biggest reason I left.)

      B) It’s worth considering whether your company needs to have some sort of process in place to double-check these things – it seems there were two issues (corrupted file, incorrect street name) that could have been caught sooner.

      1. JLK in the ATX*

        Is your employee younger than 59.5 and attempting to take out retirement funds for a financial need – which may be the root of her anger? Not that her anger is warranted.

        Why, even through you’re her boss, are you doing her HR work? It’s her retirement account – she needs to go through HR herself. Maybe it’s the way you’re set up that she has to go through the boss to get to HR?

        I hope this is the last thing you do for her. I’ve had such issues and when anyone attempted to rant, they were stopped. It only to exacerbate issues. And frankly no one has the right or reason to yell at their boss.

  71. esra*

    Wow. First couple weeks at the new job have been crazy. Things are going really well so far, but I’m like… vibrating with imposter syndrome. I’m looking confident while wanting to crawl under my desk. But, in a good way? Basically there is a lot more challenge/risk than my last few jobs, but also a lot more responsibility and reward. I want to do a great job, but right now that also feels a lot like wanting to vomit :x

  72. Venting anonymous*

    My boss is just the worst manager. He won’t share any information or power but then feels victimized that we did not know and thus did something “terrible”. It’s this vicious circle, becasue everytime someone does something, often becasue we don’t have the bigger picture or all the information [because boss won’t share], boss becomes more convinced he needs to be involved in everything. It’s just amazing how one of the most powerful people in the organization actually comes to it from this place of victimization. I know this but every so often it just gets to me and today is one of those days!

    1. Caroline Herschel*

      Oh wow this is so incredibly familiar! You really described how much it can be an awful cycle. A lot of the dysfunction at my current organization seems to stem from exactly this mindset. It’s amazing how it ‘trickled down’ to otherwise good managers too – it really seemed like managers who might normally be communicative picked up on (or were forced into) this style from/by higher-ups.

  73. Caroline Herschel*

    Today is my last day at my job! I’m really excited to wrap things up, but it feels weird to be leaving. This was my first professional job out of college/grad school, so it’s a little nerve-wracking to start over somewhere else.

    One particularly odd (in my mind, anyway) part of today is that they’ve asked me to talk with a board member in a sort of second exit interview. I do understand the mindset – it’s a small nonprofit that’s gone through a lot of transition and difficulty over the last year or so, and they want to understand why people are leaving and whether the path they’re on is going to be successful. At the same time, I don’t really know what to say! I’m not particularly comfortable being totally honest about all my reasons for leaving (and have kept things pretty general in previous conversations with my current boss, who’s the founder of the org). Any ideas about how to be diplomatic while still providing potentially useful feedback?

    1. esra*

      Honestly, just be as forthcoming as you feel comfortable with. If you feel okay about giving some high level reasons people are leaving (compensation? culture? management?), you can do that without getting into too many details. Any actual heavy lifting on improvements should be done by them, you’re really just pointing them in the right direction.

      1. Caroline Herschel*

        Thanks – the advice to keep things more general, and focused on the source of problems rather than specific solutions was really helpful! I just finished the meeting, and it went (I think) pretty well. We kept things pretty general, so that was good. I wasn’t able to totally avoid all specifics (they asked good questions!), but overall I’m pretty happy with how it went.

    1. Dawn*

      OK that would be totally weird for probably any other position other than in marketing, but I could absolutely see where doing something like this would make you stand out to a marketing firm.

    3. Frankie Seeks Job*

      I remember Alison had an entry where an applicant sent in a cake or something, and HR was more weirded out than impressed.

    4. Pwyll*

      NOPE.

      I especially like the first line of his letter that says, “I’m a liar who disguised myself to get into your building.”

  75. Beezus*

    Does anyone have any ideas, links, or stories around using puzzles or games for training?

    I’m working on a training plan for my team for a huge ERP software change we’re doing next year, and my boss really wants me to incorporate fun into the training. He specifically asked me to put together a Bingo game, but I think anything fun would be fine. I have to train on a ton of new terminology and “how to find XYZ info now”, and I have a training environment available that users are expected to log into and practice with. I was thinking of maybe a crossword puzzle and a scavenger hunt, but I am eager for any ideas the group here might have.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, I was at a big committee-of-commitee thing and they did a Jeopardy-type game, and it was great! Now that I think about it, they didn’t even write the backwards questions and stuff–it may have just been a competitive Q&A with the answers as building blocks on a screen.

  76. Tomato Frog*

    Tips for doing a presentation — using slides — without getting tripped up on technical challenges/looking like I don’t know what I’m doing?

    I’m giving a talk at an interview and I think I’d like to use slides, but it’s been many years since I’ve used PowerPoint. I won’t be able to practice on site ahead of time. Is PowerPoint my best option? Are there other free programs/services I should consider? How does one usually bring one’s presentation to a third-party location — USB, email it to yourself?Any common pitfalls of setting up a presentation with slides that I should be aware of? [Insert “I have no idea what I’m doing” dog meme here.] Help pls.

    1. Emilia Bedelia*

      In my opinion, PowerPoint is far and away the most common program, and probably the best option for ease of use. There are other options like Prezi, but I tend to think that they are not as professional if they are not well done… and many are hard to do really well. They can come across as if you’re just using something different for the cool factor, and if you’re not comfortable with the program, it won’t come across well. I would recommend exporting PowerPoint presentations to a PDF- this way, you avoid any compatibility issues with special formatting or fonts. A USB is probably the safest bet, but you could both email it to yourself and bring the drive, just in case. I’ve seen people bring their computers and just hook it up to the onsite projector, but I wouldn’t bank on that, as projectors are notoriously malicious and if it’s an important presentation, it’s basically guaranteed that it won’t connect and you’ll look silly. My best tip is to practice the presentation enough that you can do it without the slides- the slides should enhance your speaking, not the other way around.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Thanks, this is great! Re: exporting as a PDF — would I then only have the PDF file with me, and that’s what would be projected and what I would be clicking through during my presentation?

    2. Annie Moose*

      Obligatory basic PowerPoint rules:

      1. Rule of Sevens: only have a maximum of seven lines of text on a slide, with a maximum of seven words per line. If you think you need more than that, rethink it! (or at least break it into two slides)

      2. Don’t just read what’s on the PowerPoint. Unless you’re giving a presentation for someone who’s blind, they’re capable of reading the screen just like you! Use the PowerPoint to have your main, summarized points, and expand on them as you talk.

    3. Lia*

      Bring a laptop! I would not rely upon the site having one, unless they have specifically told you they will provide it. and if you have a Mac, make sure you bring the appropriate adaptor cables to make it work with a projector.

      I always have a copy saved onto the laptop, another on a flash drive, and a third emailed to myself.

    4. Dr. KMnO4*

      Prezi is an online presentation-making tool. If you’ll have internet access that’s an option. Personally I don’t care for Prezi-based presentations because the ones I have seen have too much swooping and sliding and distracting animations. But YMMV.

      Whenever I’m giving a presentation on a computer that’s not mine I email the presentation to myself AND carry it on a USB. Cloud storage programs like Google Drive, OneDrive, and Dropbox are also helpful. Since you never know what could happen it’s definitely better to have your presentation in multiple places. Don’t put all of your eggs in one basket.

      Depending on which program (and which version of said program) you are using, there can be size problems with your slides. I believe the newest version of PowerPoint uses a Widescreen (16:9) size by default. This runs into problems with older projectors which are more often set up for Standard (4:3) size. To be safe I would make sure that your slide size is set to Standard.

      Stay away from very bright colors (like vibrant yellow/green/orange) or pastel colors. White (or very light colored) backgrounds with black text are better for most people than dark backgrounds with white text. The best advice I ever got was to think of the presentation as a memory aid for you – the big ideas are on your slides but your words elaborate on them. Please do not read verbatim from your slides. Generally the less text on your slides the better, though depending on your field this may not always be true.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        These are fantastic tips, thank you!

        There’s no danger of me having much text on my slides. I’ve watched many a conference presentation and text-heavy slides make my eyes roll up into my head. The main reason I want to use slides for this presentation is that the prompt for my talk has three parts, and I want to keep both myself and the audience oriented to what section I’m on (and also to give them something to look at aside from my face….).

      2. Bye Academia*

        Seconding the suggestion to make sure to use the standard (4:3) aspect ratio. Coming from academia, most of the projectors are old and don’t support widescreen aspect ratios. If you do end up with a widescreen projector the standard slides will still look normal, but widescreen slides are often cut off with a standard projector.

    5. Bye Academia*

      I agree that PowerPoint is the way to go for compatibility, and redundancy is key for technical issues. I personally don’t convert to PDF since I use the “appear” function to build up my slides as I talk, but it’s a great option if you are just going slide by slide. As Emilia Bedilia said, you never know about formatting or fonts on other computers. For this reason, my first plan is always to try to use my own laptop where I know how things look. Make you sure you have cords and adapters that will allow your laptop to be hooked up the projector by both VGA or HDMI, since either of those could be your option. And don’t forget your power cord! In case you can’t get your laptop hooked up smoothly, I would email yourself a copy of the PowerPoint/pdf and also bring it on a separate flash drive. Sometimes I feel crazy bringing so much stuff to a talk, but there have been cases were each of those scenarios has played out. People do generally understand technical glitches, but as a presenter, I feel better if I know I can transition to another method if one isn’t working. Computer shuts off for windows updates in the middle of the talk? No problem, you can switch to the workstation computer! No internet on that computer? No problem, you have it on a flash drive! When I interviewed for my current job, there wasn’t even a workstation computer. If I hadn’t brought my laptop, I would have been screwed. Good luck!

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Thanks! I definitely find the idea of using PDF comforting. You (& Lia above) make excellent sense re: bringing your own computer, but my own laptop is cheap and slow, and I’m not keen on the idea of putting any dependency on it working as it should. They did tell me there would be a computer available, though.

  77. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

    Never mind the “leggings as pants” debate. I’m more interested in the “Lularoe-esque printed leggings in the workplace” debate.

    Discuss.

    -Signed, Cranky HR administrator who cringes as flip-flops in the workplace.

    1. not so super-visor*

      I guess it depends on the workplace. My personal rule for my own wardrobe is that my shirt/tunic/dress has to be longer than my bum (usually mid-thigh) in order to wear non-workout leggings in public.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I own a pair of those. The only reason I didn’t wear them to my extremely casual office was because I never found a cute little black dress to go with them. So… it depends. When I worked for a giant company and often saw clients? No way. In a very relaxed atmosphere that was too echo-y for heels and where co-workers often walked around with bare feet (shudder)? Eh, ok.

      Just cover your booty. That’s all I ask. Everyone, men and women. Please.

      1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        I think that’s a fair request!

        Actually, the crazy printed leggings with a (casual) lbd sounds really cute.

        1. Red Reader*

          I work mostly off-site, and a knee-length dress with LLR leggings has sort of become my uniform for onsite days. Usually I just wear a black or charcoal dress with the fun leggings – and if I wear patterned leggings, I also wear tall boots, so that between the boots and the dress, only about six inches of leggings are visible anyway. I wore my Halloween ghost-printed ones to meetings on Wednesday (I was the senior person in the room), and one of my reports walked into our 1:1 and the first thing she said was “ARE THOSE LULAROE??”

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      White jeans seem to be another thing people think are okay. My (admittedly new) coworker wore them earlier this week and I told her right away that she can’t wear jeans here. But then an even newer staff member, who is slightly higher-ranking, wore them today! What is up with that??

      1. Overeducated*

        I think maybe jeans in the colors of more formal slacks (black, gray, dark green, white) count as acceptable in business casual environments. I wear my bright red slacks, which I thought were not workplace appropriate, because hey, the boss wears bright red denim capris….

      2. Sophie Winston*

        Ah yes – casual colored denims. Love em. Though I carefully wear them with a top that disguises the patch pockets on the back.

      3. Sami*

        I think white jeans (not super skinny, ripped or torn) can be nice looking. As long as it’s paired with a professional shirt of course.

  78. Anon Accountant*

    After over a year of job searching I got called for a job interview Wednesday! Please please keep your fingers crossed for me. It would change my commute from 15 minutes to an hour but the company is much more functional and there’s no worries about your paycheck clearing.

    Neither will sexual harassment be tolerated. Yeah that’s a long story I’ll leave for another day.

    And Alison, feel better ASAP.

    1. esra*

      Man, good luck. Hopefully the longer commute will be a zen one. Certainly getting out of your long-story workplace will help temper the loss of sweet commute.

  79. TheSkrink*

    Successfully challenged a coworker’s inappropriate negativity last week, and this week used aggressive politeness to get her back to treating me like a person :D

    Anybody else have wins with difficult coworkers this week?

  80. PonyShow*

    Had to share this. Just got an email from a hiring manager for a job interview I had scheduled for an upcoming day. Turns out the position was for a short term contract position and not a permanent position as the posting would leave you to believe. The Hiring Manager said they had to start contacting potential interviewees and let them know about this as they found out from a couple of interviews already that this was an immediate deal breaker for candidates. You think?

    2. Not Karen*

      Yeah, seriously. Not as bad, but once I applied for a job that was advertised as a one year contract and was told during the phone interview that the contract only had seven months left on it.

    3. SeekingBetter*

      Earlier this year, I had someone try to offer me to interview for an internship, rather than the full-time midlevel role they had posted on the job board. Not surprisingly, I politely declined.

    4. SophieChotek*

      That is frustrating.
      At least they contacted you ahead of time so you didn’t waste time going in? (or even doing the entire interview)

    5. Chaordic One*

      There are certainly an awful lot of misleading job postings that do not accurately describe the actual position to be filled. It is really disappointing and does not speak well of the potential employer.

  81. Erin*

    I need some advice. I work for a small business- it’s just me and my boss, the owner. I sell/service Coffee Pots and he’s in charge of Teapots, but I’m also sort of the receptionist because he’s frequently out of the office and doesn’t answer the phone when he is around. I keep getting phone calls from people who have left previous messages that my boss hasn’t returned, and understandably, the people are getting more and more annoyed that he won’t call them back. How do I respond to this? I can’t help them- I’m not familiar with the product he sells so would not feel comfortable trying to assist, other than scheduling them to meet with him. If I tell him that someone has called more than once and would like to hear back, he laughs it off. I just feel like I’m taking the brunt of these people’s annoyance and I don’t know how to respond to them. I usually try to cover for my boss by saying something like “Oh, I’m sorry, he’s been really swamped, I’ll remind him you called,” or whatever, but half the time he just doesn’t return calls if he doesn’t feel like it. It’s so frustrating!

    1. Temperance*

      He doesn’t have to deal with it, since you are. That really sucks. I might advise them to shoot him an email instead. (That’s what I have done in the past.)

      “So sorry, Bob has been traveling. Do you have his email?”

    2. Dawn*

      I’d say work out a triage system for calls with your boss, and ask him how he’d like particular calls to be handled. You can’t make him return phone calls, but you can screen calls for him and perhaps turn away some callers before they ever get to his voicemail- things like sales calls, etc. Also, are you taking messages at all so that he has some idea of what the callers want? Additionally, are you giving the callers a timeline for when he’d call them back (I know you can’t control when he calls back)? So then instead of telling him ten times a say “So-and-So called”, you can take ten calls, reject three outright because they were sales calls, and for the other seven take down their name and what they’re calling about and tell them “OK, I will tell Fergus you called- he typically can take up to [a week, three weeks, never so you should just email instead] to respond to a phone call FYI”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      End your statement with a question, cause him to think.

      “Bob called again regarding a price quote.”
      [Boss laughs.]
      “What would you like me to tell him?”
      [Boss gives you line of nonsense.]
      “No, I mean seriously, what would you like me to tell him?”

      Stop providing answers for your boss and make him come up with answers. He’s going to kill his biz if he keeps doing this.

    4. Sami*

      Can you say that he’s not in/is busy/unavailable and then tell them you’ll transfer them to his voicemail?

  82. Candi*

    I’ve been reading some of the past articles and comments here about toxic and abusive work environments, and abusive relationships of all kinds.

    And I’ve been wondering -does growing up in an abusive environment have the potential to make someone more likely to just deal with a toxic workplace, due to a skewed sense of what is normal, or a feeling they just have to deal with the situation, not realizing they can stand up and choose what they want?

    What does the community think?

    (And all you folks who’ve survived toxic family, relationships, and work environments -y’all know you’re awesome, right?)

    1. Temperance*

      I have a crazy mom, and I think that it depends. I’ve seen some of us with similar backgrounds who have a ridiculously high tolerance for what is considered abuse, and others who consider any kind of negativity toxic and abusive.

      I lean towards “get a thicker skin”, myself, and find that i’m better able to deal with negativity than others who were thankfully raised differently.

    2. esra*

      I was talking with a friend the other day about people who grew up in upper-middle/upper class families, with lots of support, have a crazy kind of confidence. They’re confident in themselves, because why wouldn’t they be? They’ve always been comfortable and supported, and told they were rad. They’re confident things will work out, because things work out, that’s been their experience.

      But when you’ve known a lot of insecurity (especially food/shelter), you’re constantly wary about that. Even when things go well for a while, it’s still on your mind. I think that can’t help but bleed into the workplace. To your particular point, I’ll say that people I’ve known who grew up comfortable are way more likely to leave a crummy job, even without something lined up, and also tend to negotiate more aggressively for what they feel they’re worth.

    3. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Eh, I don’t know. While my upbringing was hardly typical, it definitely was not abusive or dysfunctional. However, my first job out of college was an EXTREMELY toxic environment, and even though I had many part time/summer jobs and internships (paid and unpaid) prior to that, it still shaped some of my expectations for future employment. The upside is that not a whole lot gets to me, but the downside is sometimes I am TOO tolerant of toxic environments. I’ve become more mindful of the latter in recent years, and even though the first job was horrible in many ways, I am thankful for the lessons it taught me.

    4. AnotherAnony*

      I don’t know the answer, just wanted to say that this is an excellent question and one that I have often thought of and pondered.

    5. Alton*

      I think it depends on the person, honestly.

      My mom grew up with six siblings in an abusive home. They all handle conflict quite differently. My mom is very assertive and doesn’t put up with anything, but I have an aunt who’s like the exact opposite. There are a lot of variables.

    6. Dzhymm, BfD*

      I grew up in a somewhat toxic environment and basically did not even know about the concept of “boundaries” until well into my 30s. This primed me to accept as “normal” things that I now would perceive of as outrages (such as one boss making my first assignment to go fetch him lunch, and another who asked to take a bite of my sandwich).

    7. Fortitude Jones*

      does growing up in an abusive environment have the potential to make someone more likely to just deal with a toxic workplace, due to a skewed sense of what is normal, or a feeling they just have to deal with the situation, not realizing they can stand up and choose what they want?

      My mother was verbally, physically, emotionally and sexually abused by her father growing up, and yes, she sticks in bad situations (jobs and relationships) because dysfunction is all she knows. My brother and I have been telling her for years to leave her shitty job, she’ll make a half-hearted effort, and then give up at the first sign of rejection of failure. It’s incredibly frustrating to watch, but she honestly doesn’t think she can do better.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Skewed sense of normal, learn to deal rather than change, no point in standing up for one’s self
      And adding…
      lack of knowledge of what choices are available.
      lack of knowledge of how to get there
      less awareness of how the world/businesses/relationships work in general
      on guard, everything has a potentially negative side
      inability to trust others and/or one’s own judgement
      no/low sense of self worth
      lack of resources- educations, friends, mentors, skills

      When day-to-day survival is a struggle, things such as planning for the future, networking and so on get tossed to one side. There is no time/energy available for these developmental type things.

    9. Lolly Scrambler*

      I love this question and the responses! You’re awesome too. As for me, I feel that I can’t stand up and choose what I want but that’s also because being from an abusive family I can’t go back or ask them for help so I have to stay employed in any job, no matter what. So that has probably helped with the whole situation of feeling I have to deal with toxic environments.

  83. Hooptie*

    Question: How can I coach an employee on being more ‘polished’?

    I recently took back management of a support department that I left three years ago to pursue a different position within the company (I still have that position and am technically doing both jobs, but that is a totally different situation)!

    In doing some preliminary work with the team, I have become aware that they want to move up. Not just financially, but also in the level of work that they are doing as well as their labor grade/titles. We have this capability now due to the merging of my ‘other position’ responsibilities and coming back to manage this department.

    One of the longer-tenured employees came on just before I left the department a few years ago. At the time, I was a little hesitant to hire her, but the supervisor (who reported to me) was convinced that she would be great at the job with some training. I told the supervisor, “Fine, but you are responsible for training her and getting her up to speed.” Over the last few years, the supervisor (who is no longer with this team) did do a great job of teaching this person Microsoft Office and other skill-based functions. This person also has a great work ethic, works really hard, and wants to do a good job. The people she supports really like her.

    But there is a gap. There is a lack of sophistication(?) or polish(?) with this person. She has greatly improved on her spelling and grammar, and knows that this will be a constant goal for herself. However, she does have some issues with being somewhat brash and lacking emotional intelligence, and this has resulted in riffs with her peers. She gets very defensive when you try to coach her.

    In order to move this team to the next level, I need for them to be more professional, and more polished. I have no concerns about anyone except this one person.

    My thought is to take it from a Personal Development Plan review standpoint. What do you want, here are the possibilities, and here’s what you/we need to do to make it happen. But I’m afraid that she’ll get immediately defensive and shut down when we’re really trying to help her.

    Any suggestions on what to do, how to phrase it, how to even bring up what is needed and still have it be a productive conversation?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. fposte*

      Do you have the choice of not including her with the team? If so, I’d consider that as well.

      For me being defensive is more than a lack of polish. I need to be able to talk to my staff about weaknesses and strengths without it being a battle. I would be inclined to have a come-to-Jesus talk about this characteristic that’s holding her back and be ready to use her response to the discussion as an example, and note that I’m ready to coach her on the soft skills she needs to move forward–but she’s got to improve the soft skills to move forward.

      1. Hooptie*

        Unfortunately, no. It’s an all or nothing situation; our labor grades classifications are really wonky.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The brashness and defensiveness go hand-in-hand.

      If she can tone down one the other will probably tone down also.

      Tell her that being able to accept coaching is a skill that she will use her entire life. Explain that people only coach/give pointers when they see something of value in the person. If true, explain to her that if she continues on as she has, she might end up coaching people. So she should know how to coach well. In order to coach well, you have to learn how to receive coaching well.

      Ask her to think about what is being said. Tell her this is not the same as calling a person names or telling them their mother is ugly. That is not what is going on here. People are pointing out how to get ahead in the workplace and that is not an insult.

      You could end up with her in tears. Don’t worry if this happens. I assume people have spoken to her in a crappy manner all her life. The fact that she gets defensive instantly kind of telegraphs that to us. If she starts crying, let her know this is okay, this is fixable. Ask her if she wants to fix it. Hopefully she says yes.

      For her interactions with others: Tell her to start by thinking about what it is like to be the other person. Think about what would help the other person to hear what she wants to say and respond in a favorable manner.

  84. Ornery PR*

    I’m hoping the community can help with a strange dilemma. I’ve been with my current company for going on 6 years. I’ve learned so much in this position and have really been able to expand my skillset and complete meaningful projects. The skills I have now are miles ahead of what they were when I was hired. I’m starting to get itchy and am thinking about moving on to another company where I can focus more on one aspect of my skills (I wear many hats right now and it would be great to get more specialized). I’ll be able to write a great resume and cover letter that will demonstrate my knowledge and accomplishments and I’d be a competitive candidate for the positions for which I’d like to apply.

    However.

    I’m worried about my references. The references I used to get my current position are so many years removed at this point, and none can speak to what I’m capable of doing now. My coworkers and managers would speak very highly of me and I know they value my work, but there’s no way I can let them know I’m thinking of leaving before I have something else solid lined up. They don’t handle people leaving here very well, and since I’m the only person in the company in my specific role, leaving will be difficult and I can’t imagine they will be happy about it.

    So who do I get to be a reference? I’ve been racking my brain and can’t think of anyone who can speak directly to my work and new skills. I’m sure my old reference would be willing, however, beyond character, I don’t think they can give much info about me now. Am I putting too much emphasis on this aspect of the job search? Are hiring managers understanding of this type of situation and willing to put more emphasis on what I say and can demonstrate than what a reference could say? I’d love any advice or suggestions people have. Thanks!

    1. designbot*

      Do you have any coworkers or managers who’ve left in the time you’ve been there that you could get in contact with? For my current position I used a reference who had been my manager for my first year or so at my last job but left the firm before I did, and that worked out very well. Though I know you want someone to be able to speak to how much you’ve grown, I think you can do the following to help get over that hump if the reference isn’t up to the minute current: 1) have a good convo with the reference and update them on how you’ve grown since they left, 2) contextualize the reference for your interviewers by mentioning you worked with them up until a couple of years ago.

      1. Lillian Styx*

        I would go this route as well. I, too, have been in the same place for seven years (!) and it was my first professional job out of college (!!) so if (when) I ever leave I’m going to be facing your exact dilemma, OP. I think my boss would understand if I told her I was looking. She wouldn’t be happy per se, but she wouldn’t torpedo me either… I think.

        1. Ornery PR*

          Sounds like we’re in a similar situation! That’s great that your boss would be somewhat understanding at least. My bosses are the company owners, and they would most definitely freak. There are so many great things about my workplace, but the fact that it’s family run and staffed is not one of them. They take people leaving very personally.

      2. Ornery PR*

        There really isn’t much turnover in my company. There are two people who have left with whom I still keep in contact, but they were in different departments at my same level or lower, and couldn’t actually speak to my work in any meaningful way. Plus the company as a whole has changed significantly since they left, not only my role. I do think both would be willing to do it, and one has asked me to be a reference for her in the past, so maybe that’s an option. I like the idea of catching them up to speed on my projects and giving context to my interviewers. Thank you!

  85. Roza*

    Not really a question, just a vent, and I suppose a vague hope that there are others out there who’ve been through similar and have tips on how to deal.

    I work as a technical specialist for a small consulting firm that’s becoming a medium -sized consulting firm. There are more managers/directors/vice presidents etc than there are actual staff. Most of these people have been at the firm forever and all have their own idiosyncratic ways of doing things (even something like managing a budget…the company tried to institute a uniform way of tracking budgets and the old timers revolted, so that was dropped). They also all feel a need to weigh in on projects, and of course each has a different way of doing things, so no matter how early we start a project we end up redoing it five times (because each time we send it up the chain for a final technical review the person who reads it wants to change direction), and there’s a mad exhausting rush to the finish….but even that is rarely satisfying since after a crazy push to finish we change direction yet again.. Coupled with this is the fact that, like most technical staff, few people understand what I do, or how long it takes. Even though I’m an exempt employee, I sometimes feel like a freelance consultant (especially since each project director has totally different systems, and since even though in theory directors are supposed to loop things through “my” manager, they often don’t), except I have no power to limit the number of revisions. (The endless revisions don’t seem to be a performance issue–my most recent review was filled with praise and a large raise).

    Anyway, between constantly being in crisis mode, the need to be mindful of budget (taking initiative risky–on the one hand I like to improve things where I can, not just mindlessly follow direction, on the other hand you can’t just burn budget without permission and project managers/directors are often slow to respond bc they’re so overloaded) and the snide attidude of several of the old-timers (anyone who hasn’t been in the industry/this specific company at least 10 years must be a moron), I feel like I’m burning out and looking to do the bare minimum instead of doing work I feel proud of.

    The work itself is interesting and my colleagues are really nice with the exception of snide old-timers, but the disorganization is driving me crazy. But maybe this is normal? This is my first post-PhD job. I’ve been here a little over a year and would like to stay longer, but am worried that I’ll go crazy and/or that my performance will start to slip and I’ll get fired before I can get out (they are not shy about firing perceived low performers below the manager level…which is also really stressful because given the lack of processes and documentation and the constant switching of priorities, people make mistakes all the time. My current read is that this is why we have multiple rounds of review and mistakes are normal and fine…until they aren’t. It is completely unclear what causes this, they just fired someone who been promoted a few months ago, but after the firing insisted he’d been having performance issues for years…).

    Wow, that was long. Thanks for virtually listening:) And feel better AAM!

    1. ASJ*

      I don’t know, it sounds normal to me. But I work in a university environment, where many higher-ups exist in a bubble and know nothing about how things are supposed to be done. Many things take months, if not years, to happen because of that. We also have a lot if Idea People who like to come up with grand ideas, promise said grand ideas, and then drop it into the laps of their peons who have to make it happen. It is as my coworker said this morning… “why even have a process if no one’s going to follow it?”

  86. Anons-y*

    I have a question about LinkedIn. I am currently working as a temp in a field I am very interested in getting in to. I would really like to have this position on my LinkedIn even though it’s a short term position since it shows I have experience in the field, but I’m struggling with how to list it. I am technically employed by the temp agency (Teapot Temps, Inc.) but do the work on site for another company (Teapots United).
    I’m not sure what the norm is for listing things like this – do I list the position as being with a Teapot Temps, or as with Teapots United? I feel as if listing Teapot Temps won’t really illustrate that this is real experience in a Teapot Spout design capacity, but it also feels disingenuous to list my employer on LinkedIn as Teapots United since they aren’t the ones writing my checks.
    Am I grossly over thinking this, or is there some norm I should be aware of?

    2. Fabulous*

      On all my temp positions, I’ve listed it as the company I’m working for (not the temp agency) on LinkedIn and then in my title I’ll put “Temporary” in parenthesis, or I’ll mentioned it in the blurb about the position where you can also mention the agency you’re working through. For example:

      Receptionist (Temporary)
      Company Name
      October 2016 – Present
      “Work with Company Name via temporary contract through Agency B.”

  87. Persephone Mulberry*

    Has anyone here ever taught a Community Education type art class? I’ve been invited to teach a quilling class or workshop by the local adult CE program coordinator, and while I think that would be awesome and fun, I’m slightly overwhelmed with possibilities, mostly around designing a project that is interesting but still approachable. Open to any and all advice, suggestions, resources, etc.!

    1. Junior Dev*

      Not art classes, but I used to be in charge of an education program that was similar (“how to do a physical thing”) and I advise you to work with someone who knows nothing about your craft to develop a curriculum. Maybe just sit down with a friend and explain the process to them, and encourage them to ask questions when they don’t understand a thing, and write those questions down to be sure and address them in your curriculum. E.g.:

      You: so then you melt the chocolate and pour it into the teapot mold…
      Friend: how do I melt the chocolate? And where do I get a teapot mold?

      Then you know that your curriculum needs to include instructions on how to melt chocolate, and the best kind of teapot mold for beginner projects.

      Also, write down a handout that people can take home with instructions on the steps you will go through in class–this will also help people during class who are better at absorbing information by reading.

      1. Junior Dev*

        Also, have another non-teapot-maker read over your curriculum and point out anything that’s not clear.

        Did you mean “quilting” or is quilling a thing I’m not aware of? For quilting, maybe they could do something small but practical, like a trivet/small square to put hot dishes on.

  88. Leatherwings*

    Help! I was lucky enough to get three job offers this week. I accepted one and made haste to turn down the other two out of courtesy. I tried calling both places, but neither answered. I left a message to call me back (nothing else, didn’t want to turn down the offer via voicemail) but neither did after almost a full day. I ended up emailing both. This was two days ago and neither acknowledged the email or called me back.

    I know our business together is technically done, but am I wrong in thinking they should at least let me know they received the email? Did I error in declining via email?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      They should let you know, but honestly you’ve done your due diligence and can, in good conscience, wipe your hands of this. You let them know. They can move or acknowledge they got your message and then move on.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      You absolutely did the right thing– those two companies are unprofessional by not responding to you! Obviously you made the right choice. :)

      Congratulations!

  89. caledonia*

    I feel like this will have been asked before.

    New job, 4 people in my office. The two long timers – around 20 years in the job – have radio music on all day, every day. It’s driving me a bit crazy. Headphones are a no-no. I am going home with…no quite a headache but my head feels “fuzzy” and “full”.

    Help!

    1. Lillian Styx*

      Ergh, I can deal with the same Adele song played every hour on the hour but the commercials would drive me completely insane. Can you ask the long-timers for a few hours of quiet time every day?

    2. ButFirstCoffee*

      Do you know why they don’t use headphones themselves? Do you mean headphones are just a no-no for you or for everyone?

    3. Jennifer*

      I wish I had help for you, but when I spoke up it didn’t really get anywhere. Either you ask them to stop and they may or may not, or you take it to the supervisor and then you see how good your supervisor is at cracking the whip and making them stop. Those are kinda the options.

      Can you use earplugs?

    4. BRR*

      “I find it hard to concentrate on work with the music on. Can we split the difference and keep it on part of the day?”

      and see if the other non-long timer feels the same.

      1. BRR*

        Or if they won’t stop turn on your own radio. It’s petty but you have to respect others in an office.

        1. Caledonia*

          I like your first wording! Am not sure about my own radio as the old timer has speakers but we don’t have speakers or sound on our computers.

          1. BRR*

            I probably wouldn’t turn on my own music. That’s my “If I could be petty about everything that annoyed me this is what I would do” response.

  90. Junior Dev*

    I work in tech. The last two job so had were 1) very male dominated 2) lacking in professional boundaries as to what it’s appropriate to talk about at work 3) had these dysfunctions going all the way up to the owners of the company. It made it very hard to concentrate on work when I was worried about what awful things I would hear next.

    How do I find a workplace in this industry (programming, web development) where people act like adults rather than teenage boys? Unfortunately the worst offenders at prior jobs were often in their 30s and 40s; my fellow 20somethings would at least listen when I asked them to tone it down.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Unfortunately, the whole industry is very male-dominated and still sexist. Maybe find a tech company with female leadership (not just a male-dominated company with one woman CEO)… might be hard to find a job at, but something to consider. Also, is it possible for you to find work doing what you do but not at a tech company?

      1. Junior Dev*

        Probably. I want to find a happy medium between “all tech all the time” and “the only technical person in the company” (the latter is basically my friend’s job and he gets called on to do anything and everything technical with basically no support or understanding of what he does by anyone else, which is not what I want).

        It sucks because I love programming so much! But I hate the culture that has arisen around it.

        Side note: I’m coming to hate the cultural trope of “can’t find a job? Learn to code!” Because 1) it’s not like jobs automatically fall in your lap and 2) you’re basically signing up to be a perpetual outsider in your field if you aren’t a young white man.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, it’s kind of sucky. I have mixed feelings about the whole “women in code” movement. On the one hand, yes, anything we can do to encourage underrepresented groups to get into tech. On the other hand, a lot of the rah-rah-rah often ignores “There is rampant sexism still you’ll have to deal with, and not all of it is subtle even.”

      2. DoDah*

        This won’t work. I’ve worked for two tech companies with woman CEOs and the brogrammer culture was just as entrenched.

    2. AnotherAnony*

      Maybe try looking at libraries, schools, non-profits that need someone with a tech background? Those places might be a little more professional.

    3. GirlCode*

      The worst offenders are indeed in their 40s-50s- most of them married and had kids (daughters!) It’s like, wow, does your wife know that you talk like this? It’s so misogynistic and sadly, I don’t think it’s ever going to change. I don’t know why they’re like this- maybe they’re still bitter about the time in sixth grade when Sally Sue said no when they asked her to the dance or whatever, but get over it. This little Men’s Club crap needs to stop- just saying.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I know this is a bit of a tangent, but the whole daughters thing doesn’t really mean anything to these guys. Pretty much any douche-y guy you meet will have a daughter or daughters. Just look at… very famous and prominent people in the news. Having a daughter does nothing to chauvinistic men except make them more chauvinistic and paternalistically overprotective of their own daughters and totally disregarding of other people’s daughters.

      2. Junior Dev*

        Yeah and it’s like, I don’t need to convince them to agree with all of feminism. I just need them to shut up about stuff that’s not relevant or appropriate for work.

        It’s hard too because a lot of what others see as a perk to an office–free beer! We’re all friends!–is stuff that actively turns me off. But it’s not clear what I *do* want. I know I don’t care about hobbies or leisure activities being sponsored by the company–don’t give me free beer, pay me enough to buy my own beer and let me go home in time to drink it.

        Maybe I will focus my search on corporations and/or women owned companies, as suggested elsewhere. I have my own set of bad experiences with small nonprofits, but something like a university or a library would be good as well.

    4. SeekingBetter*

      Maybe a corporate company would be a better environment? seems like startups tend to be 95% male-dominated.

    5. ..Kat..*

      When I was a computer programmer approximately 25 years ago, I didn’t have to put up with this. I worked at Lockheed and IBM. It was not perfect, but not even close to what you are dealing with. So it seems to have gone backwards. I wonder why.

  91. Married to a future coworker*

    So do any of you have advice on negotiating benefits/salary with a company where your spouse already works? We will be in entirely different departments, doing entirely different things. They’re checking my references now, and I’m pretty confident that I’ll get an offer shortly.

    This company has great health benefits, but I don’t see much point in paying for them twice, since the single employee plus employee+kids still costs more out of pocket than the married couple + kids benefit my spouse already uses. Should I ask for that much more money in salary negotiations?

    The company is also scheduled to move a few states over in about a year. They’ll also only need to move one household next year, rather than two.

    I’d love any advice!

    1. Kristinemc*

      I seem to recall that with our health insurance and married couples, both of them had to be covered on the health insurance policy as single employees – you may not be able to stay covered as a spouse on the policy.

    2. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      To the first point, I don’t think it matters that your spouse works there*. Your spouse could just as easily have terrific benefits at a different employer, and your intention would always be to use his, so therefore it’s not a benefit you need. I think you ask for the number you want/think you are worth, and argue based on that. If they try to say, “But we have excellent benefits!” you can say, “Yes, I know, I already benefit from them as Spouse works here. So I wouldn’t consider that additional compensation.” And redirect back to why you should make more.

      *Some large employers will offer a discount on the family coverage if both spouses work there – for example, my old employer, if both spouses were full time employees and had family coverage, they would deduct the amount of single coverage from their payment. So, let’s say Single was $50/pay period and Family was $200/pay period – if the couple was married and had kids (so, would need family coverage), they would charge $150/pay period. Might be worth asking if that’s an option. If they have a fair number of employees in that boat it may be something they want to explore if not.

    3. Adam V*

      I’d double-check that you’ll be able to stay on his insurance as “married couple + kids” when you both work there – I know when I went on my wife’s insurance briefly while working as a freelancer, she had to check a box saying “he’s not eligible for his own insurance through his employer” (though I don’t remember if that was because I wasn’t allowed to be on hers if I had my own, or just whether the rate would be different in that case). In either case, as soon as I got my next office job, I dropped back off of her insurance and onto my own.

    4. self employed*

      At a former employer, spouses who had married health benefits received a discount for doing so. I can’t remember the mechanics of it but am sure it exists!

    5. Natalie*

      Wait, why would you ask for more money in this situation? You’re already on their benefit plan at their expense (your spouse’s premium doesn’t cover the entire cost) and you’re going to stay on their benefit plan and continue to pay the lower premium. You’re not out anything that would suggest you should get more money to compensate. In fact, you are *already* getting more money than you would otherwise because your portion of the premium is lower.

      Ask for more money if the position warrants it. But don’t base it on the health insurance.

      1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        I got the impression the OP was asking about how to structure her talks when total rewards (specifically health benefits) are not a draw for her, and that seems to be a big selling point of the job and may be used as a justification to counter any salary numbers requested.

    6. BRR*

      It sounds like you’re trying to say, “Since you’re saving money I should be paid more.” Which isn’t going to work very well in my opinion. I would approach it as if your spouse didn’t work there. Focus on what you bring to the role and ask for $X or just ask if there is wiggle room.

      2. Natalie*

        That, and the company isn’t actually saving any money. She’s already on their health insurance and she’s going to stay on their health insurance.

  92. Intrepid*

    How do I get out of the habit of diminishing my own accomplishments and the amount of effort I put into things? For work, I think this is starting to come back to bite me: I do a lot of events, and the writing and research I do tend towards less-formal channels– I publish, but on a blog, and I research, but it goes towards getting grant funding rather than, say, an academic paper. Which is to say that my work is already something people see as easy, or they don’t realize how much effort goes into it, and I really want to avoid responding to things like “oh wow, thank you for registering me & my 20 friends the morning of your event!” with “oh it was no problem.” I don’t mean to make the other person feel awkward, but I don’t want to minimize my own contributions.

    1. Manders*

      I have no advice because I’m struggling with the exact same problem. It’s hard to overcome so many years of defaulting to that response!

      1. Intrepid*

        Yes! and now I feel like I’m just far enough along that I shouldn’t be relying on faux naivete as a social out (oh was that awkward that I told you how much work you just caused me? Whoops, I’m just new here!) but I’m also still at a place in my career where I need to be very actively networking/impressing my boss et al.

    2. ButFirstCoffee*

      Instead of saying “no big deal” or “no problem” why not change your language to “I’m happy to do it!”

      1. AP*

        Agreed! I’ve been trying to say “my pleasure” in place of “no problem”, and I swear it’s had a positive effect. I feel happier about the work and the client comes away on a positive note.

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      I just pretend I’m Don Draper. Seriously. Tell the truth with calm sincerity and don’t make any self-deprecating remarks.

      1. Intrepid*

        I’ve tried this (well, without imagining myself as Don Draper specifically…), and it just gets awkward. Especially because my job is sometimes outward-facing, so part of my role IS to be professionally gracious.

    4. Dr. KMnO4*

      Maybe during some down time you can reflect on tasks you’ve done where you later diminished your accomplishments and write down everything you did. What was required to register 21 people the morning of the event? Once you write it down it will be a lot easier to realize that you expended a lot of effort and did something that was not simple. Try to keep that reflection in mind, or do it often enough that it’s emphasized in your own mind that you did accomplish something large and important. And I’ve noticed that our society often uses “No problem” to say “You’re welcome”. I think just saying “You’re welcome” is a polite response that doesn’t diminish what you did.

      Also, maybe this isn’t true in your field, but in my area of specialization it is MUCH harder to get a grant funded than to get an academic paper published. So if your research was directly related to the grant getting funded I find that very impressive. Just a different perspective that might help you not sell yourself short.

    5. HannahS*

      Like others, I think that there are polite phrases that are less diminishing than “no problem” like:
      “You’re welcome.” “I’m glad I could help.” “My pleasure.” etc.
      or if you want to hammer it home:
      “I’m glad I could help! It was a bit of a crunch, though, so next time try to register on time.”
      “You’re welcome! Yeah, that grant was a tough one, so I’m really pleased with the outcome.”
      “My pleasure! The blog is proving to be a challenge, but I’m really enjoying it.”

    6. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think it’s totally okay to reply “it was no problem!” to the client/customer/end user – like you said above, that’s part and parcel of being professionally poised in an outward facing role. Just make sure you’re not doing it with the people who decide raises and promotions. If your boss says “nice job squeezing in the 20 people from Teapots Inc.,” that’s when you don’t want to say “it was no big deal!”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      “You’re most certainly welcome. I am glad we could get you and your 20 friends in on time!”

      I think it is fair to say anyone who is good at their job makes their work appear easy.

      I would start by saying, “thank you” or “you’re welcome” and make yourself stop talking. Give a pause before you say the next thing. The pause is the moment you can use to retrain your brain to use different words than you are used to saying.

  93. doodlingloop*

    So, I’m applying for a new position this month and they requested both a resume and an employment history. Years before my current job, I took a job that turned out to be a bad idea at the time. I was burning out, and walked right into an antagonistic relationship with a superior who was also, as it turned out later, having a difficult time. After being on a PiP, I was fired almost right after the 90 day trial, so I have been leaving that off my resume. But what do you do when your employment history will also show up negative stuff like that? (For clarification, as soon as she knew I was on a pip, my superior asked me to do something I wasn’t trained for, and then ran to management to get me in trouble for it. I admit I should have asked for help, but again, burnt out and antagonistic.) I don’t want to get into details, should they ask.

    1. ASJ*

      I think you have no choice but to include it. If it’s going to come up regardless, you’re better off admitting to it. If you don’t, and they find out, it looks like you had something to hide.

      Possible ways to frame it: “I was dealing with a medical issue that has since been resolved.” (I consider burn out to be a legitimate health issue, YMMV). or “The job was not a good fit for me; I didn’t have the right skills for what they wanted.”

    2. BRR*

      If asked why it’s not on your resume I would say that a resume is a marketing document and you felt that it didn’t strengthen your candidacy.

      It sounds like you’ll need to figure out how to explain. I would definitely be prepared to talk about it. Alison has advice on it somewhere (I know for sure it’s in her job hunting guide).

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I wouldn’t say the marketing document part (I say that here but don’t think it has the right tone to say to an employer), but otherwise yes. Something like “I wanted to focus on the work experience that I thought most relevant to my candidacy.”

        1. BRR*

          Oh yeah definitely agree. Guess I wasn’t thinking when I typed that out.

          Talking about a firing is hard. It’s emotional and can be difficult to explain it while minimizing how it reflect on you. One thing that helped for me is just thinking of my firings as points in history.

  94. Epsilon Delta*

    Just need to vent. Last week my company laid off half my department. Right before a major code release. Those who were let go had one day to wrap up and hand off their projects. The code release went about as well as you would expect given those circumstances.

    I have been feeling All the Emotions about this. I was not “lucky” enough to be let go, so now I am stuck handling twice the workload, including projects for a programmer who was two grades above me. They also laid off all but one of our SMEs. While we were trying to fix an issue with our code release, the client asked why [SME] wasn’t available, and couldn’t we just call him already? That was fun.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      That sounds awful and very badly planned. I’m sorry (also, one SME?! Bottleneck, much?).

  95. I hate writing about myself*

    How do you write a recommendation letter for yourself?

    I’m writing a recommendation letter for myself on behalf of an old internship boss who literally told me I was the best intern he’s ever had. I’m not exactly sure why. I hate writing about myself. Any advice?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Ugh, that’s sort of annoying. Is it for school? In most fields, letters of rec aren’t particularly relevant and it’s better to ask to use him as a reference.

      As for writing it yourself, I would take a few different skills you want to highlight and attach specific examples to them. “Jane has amazing writing skills. She did a last minute report for us that I would normally have a senior analyst do and killed it because X and Y”

    2. TL -*

      Are you writing a draft or a letter? If it’s a draft, I would just pick a few areas you want him to focus on in the letter, write a short paragraph about each and include an example.

      “X is particularly passionate about sourcing quality, fair-trade chocolate. Her help during the Great Chocolate Uproar of 2013 was instrumental in making sure our Brazilian chocolate sources were not only excellent chocolate, but paid fairly and in accordance with our ethical standards.”

      Put 4 or 5 in and he can pick the ones he most agrees with and expand.

      If you’re not writing a draft, but writing the actual letter that he’s going to sign (which is less usual) just do the same thing, but for only 3 examples and open and close with a general recommendation. Quote him, if you can. Start with, “It is my great pleasure to recommend X for Program. X is, without exception, the best intern I have had, and I am positive she will be a great fit in your program.”

  96. Not Today Satan*

    I’m still waiting for an interview that was scheduled to start 20 minutes ago. Tempted to leave. Sigh.

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      Hope it turns around for you. They might have a good explanation, so keep that in mind! And if they don’t, you’ve gotten the chance to rule out this company as one you might want to work for.

    2. ASJ*

      That’s frustrating. But, hopefully you had the chance to make an impression as the gracious candidate who didn’t mind being kept waiting?

  97. Lemon Zinger*

    Update from my post two weeks ago: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/10/open-thread-october-14-15-2016.html#comment-1235996

    I couldn’t bring myself to talk to my boss about Jane’s problems, though I did allude to her lack of enthusiasm about night events while texting my boss yesterday. In fact, I haven’t seen my boss for a few weeks– she works at another location.

    Today Jane dropped a new bombshell: she is planning to pursue the same master’s degree I am working on. Granted, it is directly related to our field and tuition reduction is part of our benefits, but Jane has been in this role for THREE WEEKS. I had to ask Boss for permission to start the program, since it means that I leave work early one day per week and thus am unavailable for events on those nights.

    Jane continues to struggle with professionalism: yawning audibly, complaining endlessly, and she wore white jeans to work a few days back, though I’d told her on DAY ONE that jeans are never okay in our workplace. She violates my personal space on a daily basis by coming into my cubicle and standing right next to me, often reading what’s on my screen and touching my stuff.

    Help, AAM community! I need a script for an email to send to my boss. Normally I would call her to discuss this, but Jane is right across the way and can hear everything I do…

    2. JMegan*

      Jane sounds like a nightmare. I would actually email your boss instead of calling her, for a couple of reasons. One is what you mentioned, because you don’t want Jane to overhear; but you might want to take some time to organize your own thoughts, and also give your boss some time to prepare. Especially since you don’t see your boss regularly, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to start with an email and offer to follow up with a phone call. (Don’t worry about the logistics of the call for now, just get the issue on the table.)

      I would do two versions of the email. One which you draft in Word, which is the “OMG I can’t work with Jane any more she is the absolute WORST and I freaking hate her stupid white jeans” version, where you put down all your thoughts and feelings and get it all out there. Do not send this version, obviously. :) Then you do a second email, which is a factual list of behaviours you’re seeing from Jane, and their impact on you and the business, and explicitly ask your boss for help. Send that one, and let the process play out from there.

      Good luck, and please keep us posted!

      1. ..Kat..*

        I would recommend against doing this in email or on your work computer. It is too easy to accidentally send the email. And, well, anything on your work computer can be found – especially when it can cause you damage!

    3. LCL*

      Before you talk to your boss you should think about what really needs to be brought to her attention. I think you have reached the BEC stage with Jane, I know I would have given what you have described.
      You shouldn’t need the boss’ permission to get a privacy screen for your computer. You don’t need a script (shudder, I am beginning to hate that concept) to tell Jane to put your stuff down, and to take a step back from your desk. Just tell her, in the moment that it happens.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      What about some version of the wording I suggested in response to your original post a couple of weeks ago? “I think Jane might need some more oversight and guidance on professionalism. I’ve noticed some things that are concerning — she’ll often ignore me while I’m training her, put her head down on her desk and complain she’s tired or hungry, complain about our hours, and ask about other job openings in the office. Today she skipped the most crucial part of a training even though I’d told her in the morning that it was essential for her to attend the whole thing. I ended up having to send her back.”

      (Update accordingly, of course.)

      If that doesn’t feel like it will work, tell me why and I’ll revise.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Thank you, Alison! I wrote out an email with exactly that wording and just sent it, with some additional details. My reason for delaying this long: I HATE bad-mouthing people and I feel a bit like a snitch. But I know this stuff is important for my boss to know, so hopefully she can help resolve some of the issues.

        Thanks, all, for your advice! I will keep you updated!

          1. Bibliovore*

            Very late to the game. One more thing. Do not concern yourself with Jane’s statement about pursuing a masters until impacts your schedule/position.
            If you job is paying for it, she won’t be eligible until after her probationary period.
            Also ask you boss for a script on how to deal with Jane’s unprofessional behavior. Laying her head on the desk?!!!! Ignoring/leaving a training! yikes!

  98. ACA*

    Does anyone have any experience with working with your replacement? I’m in a different department now, but interact with my old department (specifically my old boss and the woman who took over my job) fairly frequently. The new lady does some things differently than I did, some of which are improvements and some of which are…not. I’m having a hard time distinguishing whether I’m just annoyed because “That’s not how I did it!” or whether they’re actually worse methods. She does some things that (while not necessarily incorrect) are causing problems, though, and I don’t know what to do. It’s not my job to manage her, but I also don’t want to say anything to my old boss, because he’s not easy to work for at the best of times. But I also don’t want her to get to her annual review and be presented with a list of every mistake she’s made over the past year and get berated for making the same mistakes over and over (mistakes that she was never told she was making…and, yes, this did happen to me).

    I don’t know. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve actually had three situations in which I’ve worked with my replacement! Fortunately, all three were amazing, so I didn’t run into the situation you did. I think you just need to say whatever concerns you have about her new worse methods, and then not be insistent they’re bad. If you’ve already given an indicator she should think twice about those approaches but she keeps going with them anyway, that’s her problem (not yours) if they come up in her annual review.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Discuss your concerns with the methods that bother you, but not in a way that says “My way was better!” – more “You may not realize but the way you’re doing this is creating X situation. Please be on the lookout for that.”

    3. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      If it’s causing problems for you specifically, in your new role, I think it is well within your right to address. “Hey, we are having a problem with X, and I need this resolved to do my job. When I was in that role, I mitigated that by doing Y and Z. You may have a better way of working this out, though, my way isn’t the only way! I just wanted to bring this to your attention so we can proactively resolve.”

      If it’s not causing problems for you directly, it’s not your problem unless she asks for your assistance. (And even then, still not your problem, but sounds like you are more than willing to help this person get on her feet.)

      1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        And, yeah, been through this a couple times. My last job hired me away from a project team in a particular division of my company, to be the HR representative for said division, so I worked directly with my replacement(s) throughout my tenure there. This was the other extreme, though, in that they were over-reliant on me, to the point that I was thinking about asking my boss to change assignments, and had I stayed there I would have done so. (I ended up leaving for unrelated reasons, to take a promotion elsewhere, which was a pretty stiff dose of reality for said Division!)

  99. Raine*

    Any good “had to fix a hot mess” stories?

    At my first job doing social media management my boss asked me to get some fliers drafted up for a new feature our company was offering. Namely she gave me a budget and directed me to a place where I could select the graphic designer who I thought would be the best fit for the job. After sorting through portfolios and prices and comparing general design aesthetics I found someone who I thought was a good fit and who promised fast turnaround on commissions and as many edits as I wanted them to make. Their reviews were all very positive as well so I sent them a message with the details for the flyer and the pictures I wanted them to use.

    The thing they sent back was awful. Like, absolutely terrible. There was a weird yellow gradient on it, the background was insanely busy because it had this zigzag pattern all over it. The font was pretty but hard to read. And out of the ten pictures I sent them only one was used in this huge banner across the top that made the whole thing lopsided. Well no big deal, I think to myself, I can just send him a list of edits to make. That’s when I find out that clearly he is not a native english speaker. The professional response I’d received back when the flyer was ready had been a form letter. The same form letter I received three more times as they attempted to make the changes I wanted because it was clear they did not actually understand what I was trying to ask them to do.

    So I’m sitting here with a hot mess of a flyer, I’ve already spent money on this thing, and this is my first real job and the first time I’ve been responsible for managing another person’s money. So I panicked and did what any 20 something might do in this situation if they’ve taken maybe a grand total of three graphic design courses in college. I downloaded GIMP, downloaded some fonts, and knocked together something in 30 minutes using the assets I had. Then I presented it to my boss as the thing I had purportedly just purchased. Luckily she loved it. She asked for a few edits which I made and the next day we had them proudly displayed all over the store.

    And that’s the story of how I managed to avoid having to tell my boss that I’d gotten scammed by some guy in turkey. I am older and wiser now but I’m still really fond of that flyer

    1. Manders*

      Hah! That’s fantastic.

      I do a lot of SEO work, which means that cleaning up hot messes is a big part of my job. The weirdest one so far: I noticed that conversions on our site had dropped sharply, and did some digging to figure out what was wrong. The problem: my boss was using Optimizely (an A/B software testing service that overlays different things onto a website so you can test design changes) to make design changes to the site because our web designers are very slow and not responsive. The site loaded *so* slowly and looked weird when it was loading because it was loading the entire normal site, and then pulling in a bunch of other graphics on top of it. I think some pages had 5 or 6 different “experiments” attempting to load at once.

    2. ASJ*

      That’s fantastic and sounds exactly like something I would do.

      My story isn’t as great – my office’s website was certainly a hot mess that hadn’t been updated in years. It took months of work to get it into something close to decent, and every time I think it’s done, I.T. does something behind the scenes that breaks a page or two. Then I have to go in and re-do the whole page. So I guess it’s kind of an on-going hot mess!

      1. Raine*

        Haha no worries, he had no involvement with our store directly so as far as he knows we’re using Hot Mess #3 that he sent back when I finally just gave up trying to communicate with him. I’m pretty sure he’s not even in the US.

    4. MommaTRex*

      My recent hot-mess story is that we hired a CPA firm to help us with a new pension reporting standard. Well, I had trouble proving out their numbers, so we started digging through their Excel workbook. The reason the numbers didn’t prove out was due to their formula errors. I was dumbfounded and internally outraged. I think they were still expecting me to use their corrected information/workbook. Ah…NO. I started from scratch with my own workbook and it is a thing of beauty. A work of art.

      1. Raine*

        That story is a thing of beauty but I don’t even want to think about how long that must have taken.

    5. EddieSherbert*

      My “best/worst” hot mess was at one of my internships at a non-profit. The Marketing team had a Communications/PR intern (me) and a Graphic Design intern (Jess). The main project for graphic design was designing a “graduation” booklet that featured everyone who completed our program that year.

      Well, turns out she didn’t actually know how to use Adobe InDesign. wasn’t comfortable learning it on her own, and she just kind of…. didn’t do it?

      So a couple months in, I’ve gathered all the quotes/logos from sponsor, gotten quotes from some mentors and participants in the program, etc. and I ask for access to the program so I can drop those in. There’s no program.

      Absolute panic between me and our manager (the only actual communications employee at this company). I ended up designing it (with my one 2 credit class worth of InDesign experience and Youtube…), going through like five templates before the Executive Director liked it, and managed to get it done in time.

      I also ended up working for them part-time after my graduation until I found a full-time job, got the best recommendation from them, and the Communications employee I worked for there still follows up with me every year, 5 years later.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Hahaha, thanks! I had a few meltdowns that semester, but the story had a happy ending :)
          And I definitely can laugh about it now!

  100. Blue Swan*

    My job includes project coordination for a department in my organization. I work with the employees of this specific department to guide them through specific tasks and initiatives, however I am not their manager and I do not hold a managerial role.

    One of the employees, Fergus, does not follow directions to include me in communications related to the projects I manage and often goes over my head to ask simple questions. I have been approached by high-level managers mentioning Fergus has contacted them several times (emails and direct calls) about something, ever after he has been told not to do this because I am the liaison. When asked by his manager (Wakeen), Fergus lies and Wakeen takes him at his word.

    I would like Fergus to be written up due to his insubordination and lies and have spoken to Wakeen about this. Wakeen has declined to do so with the promise of “If it happens again, I’ll do it.” However, Fergus is undermining me, the directions he was repeatedly given and makes the department and myself look bad.

    Is there anything else I can do?

    1. Not my normal alias*

      I have been approached by high-level managers mentioning Fergus has contacted them several times (emails and direct calls) about something, ever after he has been told not to do this because I am the liaison. When asked by his manager (Wakeen), Fergus lies and Wakeen takes him at his word.

      If they approach you again, tell them “I’m sorry. He’s been told not to do that. Perhaps if you asked Wakeen to remind him again, it would have some impact.”

    2. animaniactoo*

      Has it happened again and have you followed that up with Wakeen?

      Are you sure that the problem isn’t actually Wakeen or Wakeen/Fergus together?

      1. animaniactoo*

        Additional: Ask the higher-ups who are mentioning this to you to redirect him back to you rather than answering his question. Part of the reason Fergus continues to do this is because it continues to be a successful avenue for him. If that success is cut off – and he sees that you have the higher management types’ support in being the point of contact, it is likely to force him to reposition.

        We’ve had to use this method to stonewall somebody out of getting info/approval any other way than by going to my manager. Success rate is not perfect but far better than it was before.

        1. Blue Swan*

          I like this suggestion as well. Honestly, the manager(s) he has gone over me to ask- I feel comfortable asking them to refer Fergus back to me. The other one is someone who I just established a relationship with on behalf of this department and would be overstepping my bounds. But this method is an excellent suggestion.

          Wakeen and Fergus are both problematic- Fergus and his overstepping (with the validation for doing so, as you pointed out) and Wakeen for wanting to be “buddy” and “Mr. Nice Cop.”

          Thank you for your input, it was very insightful.

  101. TotesMaGoats*

    So, I found out that both of the positions that I was holding my breath on have moved forward. I haven’t gotten the official thanks but no thanks email but I know I’m not in the running. Really bummed by that. Trying to move past it. Just sent in another application for a grant funded position. That’s scary but not going to hurt to apply.

    Also started talking with a friend about starting a higher ed consulting company. I know the name we want is available. So that’s a start, right? And you don’t actually have to start paying taxes until you bring in money, right?

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        Thanks. It’s compounded by knowing that I’m personally connected with someone on the hiring committee who encouraged me to apply because she knew my work history and I didn’t even merit a phone interview. I know the local higher ed market is glutted with great people but I’ve got almost 15 years, so at some point either what I’m doing isn’t good enough or there really are just more people with more experience. The problem is you can never find out which is the right answer.

    3. ASJ*

      So sorry about the positions you didn’t get. That’s disappointing. Just tossing my two cents in re: the grant funded position – several people in my office have grant funded positions. I said the same thing one day, and one of my coworkers pointed out that at least with a grant funded position, they would have months, if not years, of warning if the grant wasn’t being renewed. Which, depending on the person, might provide some kind of comfort. It could be worth asking about?

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        I put in my application today. (Benefits to being offsite at a recruitment event with wifi and my personal laptop.) The thing that kind of scares me about it being grant funded would be the benefits side of it and work/life balance. My insurance and stuff is through my husband’s job but I’m thinking retirement. I know there are options but it’s always been a given. Plus, I know how grants can just get crazy. On the upside, it would cut my commute from an hour each way to about 10 minutes. Seriously. A little local travel. And if it goes really well it could be renewed or (even better) be a national model for this type of program. So, it could be awesome. Still scary to apply even if I never get a call.

    4. self employed*

      You may need to pay a business license but that’s pretty minimal. Grab the URL today! Also all relevant social media handles even if you never use them.

  102. J*

    Hi all,

    I have a basic question. Do employers – I’m talking a reputed university – verify work history when hiring or only contact references?

    I’m a freelance filmmaker who has had long-standing relations with clients. Depending on the year, I could do one to five projects for a given client. On my CV, I tend to list such clients as employers with a ‘freelance since xx’ date. Is that fine?

    Secondly, one of the projects on my CV is a film I’ve been working on myself. I have had a few acquaintances help out here and there, but I’m wondering whether and how an employer would try to verify this project.

    In general, I feel like it might be hard to verify some of these projects and would like to help them in the process if possible.

    Thanks,

    J

    1. Nada*

      I think you should be fine as long as your references check out. If they still feel like checking on the projects/freelance jobs (which wouldn’t necessarily happen) and they have trouble doing that, they may ask you, at which point you can offer to help.

      Hope that helps!

    2. Chris*

      If you are a freelance filmmaker, wouldn’t these projects have some sort of visual preview that would help verify their existence? As long as that exists, I don’t see why you should have a problem

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      It depends on the position. I work at a university. AFAIK, with lower-level positions, it’s just reference contacts that matter.

      1. J*

        It’s mid-level (50-60k). So you mean they don’t go beyond references to try to find out if you actually worked on jobs listed on your CV?

  103. Umvue*

    I have one of those good-problems-to-have, I think. I’m working in a job that I knew shortly after hire was not going to be a good fit for me, in a number of ways. The work isn’t challenging anymore, and I have little expectation that that will change; there are some small-company management issues I can’t fix and don’t want to internalize; the workplace is eerily silent a lot of the time and I spent last winter so lonely I wound up in counseling. However, I got the job through professional connections I needed to preserve, so I decided to try to stick it out for at least two years. I’m coming up on the two year mark, and it looks like one of those same professional connections may offer me a more interesting job right around when I’d be looking, which is great! Here’s the rub: despite being privately quite unhappy, I have actually done really well here. I’ve had two glowing reviews, and got a promotion I didn’t ask for; I get invited to sit in on many meetings of consequence; any perk or opportunity the bosses can reasonably give me, they do. I have no friends, but it’s pretty clear that my bosses rely on me, and are likely to be personally wounded when I move on. They have no idea I’m unhappy; and I haven’t told them, beyond very mild, carefully worded comments during my annual review (which I don’t think were really heard), because I don’t think it’s fixable. Instead I’ve tried to make the most of these years by learning everything I can, and taking on as much as I’m offered; but of course that means a bigger load to redistribute once I leave. I should feel glad to be within sight of freedom again, but instead I mostly feel guilty. My last boss took it really personally when I left, and I’m afraid of facing that all over again.

    I guess what I’m saying is this is the rub with the two year rule: you risk becoming enmeshed. You’d never spend two years dating a person you’d had reservations about since the third date, just to avoid a short relationship, because in that situation it’s obvious that it’s bad for both parties. And I suppose in a normal company, enmeshment isn’t something you’d have to worry about – it’s not a bad rule in general. But not all companies are normal.

    1. ASJ*

      Whoa, stop comparing a job to a relationship immediately! You’re not paid (I hope) to stay in a romantic relationship. A new partner will not contact your ex looking for references about you. And you have the freedom (I hope) to end a relationship anytime you want for whatever reason you want, whereas (theoretically) you don’t always have that freedom financially to quit. They are not at all the same thing.

      It’s true that some bosses take an employee quitting way more personally than they should. But at the end of the day, no one is irreplaceable. It’s a fact of life that employees can and will move on. It’s great that you are so widely valued at your current company, but do not let that stop you from doing what’s best for you personally. And don’t feel guilty about it.

      At the end of the day, what you have is a business relationship and I think you’ve let your interactions with your last boss color your idea of what’s normal. When it’s time to go (and hopefully that will be soon, because frankly you sound miserable), frame it in a positive light – “I’ve learned a lot here and appreciate the opportunities you’ve given me, but this is an amazing opportunity that professionally, I just couldn’t pass up” – and walk away knowing you were the best employee possible while you there and that’s everything they could ask for.

      1. Umvue*

        Thanks for this. I’m sure you’re right that my last exit is coloring my expectations about this one, whenever it happens, but I don’t actually think I’m reading the room wrong in thinking one of them will take it personally (I think/hope the other boss will be pretty normal), though hopefully the “swearing + silent treatment” routine from the last manager will not be repeated. Both my present and previous employers have the challenge that (for different reasons) they have a lot of trouble hiring, so it actually is a giant pain when people leave, more than it would be in a well-functioning organization.

    2. MommaTRex*

      I don’t think I would call it a good-to-have problem, I think I would just call this normal.

      You did good work for an employer. Your bosses appreciated it. But now you are ready to move on.

      That’s OK.

  104. :/*

    My coworker told me that I’m offended by everything and even though I wanted to tell her it’s just that she has no problem with racist BS, I managed to bite my tongue.

    Now I’m trying to decide if this means I deserve a cupcake or a brownie.

    2. JMegan*

      Oh, you’re a stronger person than I am! I would totally have said something, and then regretted it later. :)

      I vote cupcake.

      1. JMegan*

        I did not know brownie cupcakes were a thing when I commented above! In that case, I retract my vote and insist that you have one of those instead.

  105. Irish Em*

    I am so excited and nervous right now. I applied to two places this week, and just a little while ago I got a call from someone who was given my contact details by my Mum’s consultant, with whom I bonded over a shared love of Pucci and art, and who knew I’m still jobseeking. I feel so positive about getting something from this, that will keep me going over the Christmas period. (Having said that, this jobsearch has had me up one day and down the next, so this time tomorrow I might feel awful :P).

    Honestly, when I heard about networking I had my doubts, but this position today hasn’t even been advertised yet, and I never would have thought to look at their location for the type of work they’re offering, but it would be right up my street. I’m now crossing my fingers that the Board of Directors (one of whom is my Mum’s consultant and another of whom is Mum’s first cousin) will like my CV!

  106. BookCocoon*

    I’m trying to figure out how to deal with a guy in another department who tries to set up a meeting with me every time he has a question. I’ve tried redirecting the past couple times — [E-mailing back] Hey, let’s wait until this decision-maker is back in the office to schedule a meeting, but in the meantime if you have questions feel free to e-mail them. [Calling] Hey, I’m actually about to go into some meetings, can I answer something for you real quick? Usually the questions turn out to be very very basic and easy to answer. Yet his go-to is still e-mailing me to set up a meeting whenever he has questions or wants to discuss something. I’m not sure how old or experienced he is in the workforce, so he may just not realize this isn’t the way things are done (and that it’s a waste of time to schedule a whole meeting every time you have a question). This is one of many issues I have with him, including that he seems to retain very little of what I tell him and has to keep asking the same questions over again (more reason I don’t want to meet with him every time and also want to get my responses in writing when possible).

    Any suggestions for how to communicate “No, seriously, stop asking me to set up a meeting every time you forget something I told you”?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Be more direct! “My schedule tends to be pretty crammed, so for questions like these, I’d rather you email me instead of setting up a meeting.”

      Then if he still keeps trying to set up meetings, ask to know the topic first and then say, “That sounds like we probably don’t need a whole meeting for it. Write up any details you think I need and shoot it over to me, and I think we can just get this done through a quick email.”

      1. BookCocoon*

        I feel like that would be deceptive, since my schedule is actually really open (which he can see through our organization’s scheduling software)… I just don’t want to spend all my time in pointless meetings with this guy. Is there another way to explain that we don’t need to meet for really basic questions other than that I’m too busy?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Oh! Yeah, in that case:

          “I’ve noticed that when you have a question, you’ll usually ask to set up a meeting to ask it. It’s actually much more efficient for me if we can use email for most of the sorts of things we’ve been meeting about. So from now on, I’m going to ask you to start with email, and then if it ends up needing real back and forth, we can always move to meeting.”

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think I would be pretty direct: “Fergus, I don’t think this necessitates a whole meeting. [Here is the answer to your question]. I know we’ve gone over this item a few times in the past, so it might be good if you start keeping a document noting these procedures/policies/whatever handy for quick future reference.”

      1. BookCocoon*

        That’s what so baffling to me — in the most recent cases, all the information was spelled out in an original e-mail from me (“Here is the earliest date this is available”), then we met and went over everything in detail while he took notes and I answered his questions (“What if someone needs it before that date?” “It’s not possible.”).

        So far the questions he has wanted to meet about (that I have redirected to e-mail or phone) have been:
        “This person needs it on [date after the first date it’s available]. Is that OK?”
        “This person needs it on [date five days before it’s available. Is that OK?”

        I think he’s just genuinely slow.

  107. Potluck Problems*

    This is my first holiday season with my company. They do several holiday events, but there’s one it particular I’d like some advice on. There is a potluck lunch near Thanksgiving, where all the women bring in food. I believe the women began planning this independently as a group bonding activity several years ago and it’s become a tradition. I’m one of the youngest people at my company, and the older women have all been very welcoming which I appreciate and don’t want to spurn, but the fact that only the women cook for this just rubs me the wrong way. I happen to be out that day with a family event which saves me from coming up with an excuse, but how do I approach this next year when it inevitably comes up?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      Ask why the men don’t cook too, or if they’re tasked with cleanup. Or you could just wait and see how the workplace friend groups shake out. You might end up not sliding in with the women.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Ug, that is unfortunate. Are you male or female? As a woman, I think I might just try and make that family event an annual one, because I don’t see how raising concerns would do anything but alienate people, but I know it would really rub me the wrong way. If I were a dude, though, I’d go for some cheerful elbowing in and volunteer to bring a pie or something.

      1. Potluck Problems*

        I’m Female, and also the only women in my department. I’m sure the women though they were being kind by making sure to include me, I just wish they’d include the guys too. Then I’d be happy to bring a pie!

    3. Murphy*

      Ugh, that’s awful. I wouldn’t like that either. I don’t understand attitudes like this.My husband does 90% of our cooking and he’d be pissed about that because he’d want to make something. (Actually, he bought chili or something to a work event at his old job and someone told him to thank his wife for it!)

      Maybe you can phrase it like you’d like to open things up to the men, rather than “why is this the women’s job?” Like “Maybe we’d like to open up tasks for this and have office wide sign-ups for various tasks such as set up/clean up/cooking, etc? Some of the men might want to participate as well…”

    4. neverjaunty*

      “Hey, I noticed we haven’t been inviting the guys to participate. I bet some of them can make a mean chili/cake/eggnog and would love to share – can we include them this year?”

      1. ZVA*

        I like this wording. This is an interesting situation, because it sounds like this women-only thing was initiated by the women, as opposed to foisted on them by men… so it sounds like the origins were fairly benign, but I also understand why the OP isn’t down with it.

    6. Annie Moose*

      That’s a shame–at the holiday potluck at OldJob, some of the best dishes came from the guys!

      We had a chili cook-off last year… oh my was there some good stuff.

    7. Bluebell*

      I’d recommend you play your “I’m new” card this year, maybe offer to bring in some paper goods early, and then tag on “could we ask guys if they want to participate?” Who knows – maybe a few might do it this year and by next year when you are participating there could be even more!

    8. ..Kat..*

      I am not sure I understand. Are you saying the guys don’t participate at all? As in no cooking, no eating? This is rather exclusionary.

      Or are you saying the women do the work of cooking (and pay for ingredients), and then the men and women enjoy the food? If the latter, that is really bad. As Alison has said, we women do ourselves a disservice if we take on these roles- cleaning up after meetings, being the note takers at meetings, baking cookies, “potlucks” that only the women cook for…

  108. Mimmy*

    Requesting job accommodations when you’re not even sure what you’ll need –

    As I begin to think about job searching again (as soon as Voc Rehab gets back to me!!), I want to try to avoid getting into a situation similar to a previous job.

    My previous employer knew I have a vision impairment, and my supervisor did say up front that if I needed any accommodations to let her know. And therein lies the problem. As time went on at this job, I got myself all flustered. I knew I had the right to ask for accommodations, but I had NO IDEA what would help (although at one point I did ask for a headset to answer calls from people looking for teapot resources, and that was helpful). We tried everything – an extra training session with the supervisor, I created resource cards, nothing helped. In hindsight, I think I just couldn’t quite pin down the problem and how it could be fixed. Plus, I wasn’t willing to admit to myself (or them) that the job probably wasn’t a good fit and just kept trying to make it work.

    I now am coming to realize that I need to find something that capitalizes on my strengths, but I know that I will likely need some accommodations. My vision impairment is easy – I don’t need anything super fancy, and I already have a good hand-held magnifier.

    The rest of it? I won’t know until I get into a job what else I’d need, if anything. I have gotten good advice about disclosure, so my hope is that it’ll be enough to get the conversation started.

    Suggestions are welcome!

    1. Mimmy*

      Come to think of it – my VR program is primarily for those with vision impairments or both vision and hearing impairments. I fall in the latter category, but I think I barely fall in their eligibility criteria. Perhaps this is why – I have thought about transferring over to general VR, which is a separate agency in a separate DEPARTMENT!

    2. animaniactoo*

      What is your vision impairment? What are the things you have struggled with in your current job because of it?

      1. Mimmy*

        My vision impairment is due to congenital cataracts. They were removed when I was an infant but I was not given implants. So really, my vision isn’t severely impaired – I do fine with large print / magnification. I do have some difficulty with glare, depth perception, and navigating unfamiliar settings.

        I am not currently employed, but I have had difficulty in noisy settings because of my hearing. Also information processing. I did extremely well in school, so it’s not a traditional learning disability; it’s more that I struggle in fast-paced settings, particularly when multi-tasking is involved. I am also VERY easily distracted by extraneous sounds and side conversations, e.g. during meetings. Finally, I consider myself to be a bit socially awkward.

        I also think I write much better than I speak though people have countered that I am well-spoken. That may not be disability-related, though, as I think many people consider themselves to be better writers than speakers. In fact, many people see writing as one of my biggest strengths.

        Oh gosh, I hope I don’t sound like an absolute mess! LOL! I do have good skills and traits, I promise!

        1. animaniactoo*

          Nope, it sounds like you need something that is task-based, and more of a “lonely” job.

          So something like bookkeeping, data entry, potentially even something hands-on like landscaping/gardening where it’s really “focus on the thing you’re doing right now”. Does any of that ring bells for you?

          In terms of accommodations, I would say that what you need is a “location” with fewer distractions available. Although fwiw, everybody gets distracted by side convos in meetings. Me included.

        2. Tuckerman*

          I wonder if it would be helpful if you could get a referral for an appointment with an occupational therapist, or a professional who specializes in learning.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Well, in my limited experience with a co-worker with a vision problem, Voc Rehab (a state agency) sent a representative to the home and workplace of the co-worker and they conducted an assessment. They ended up doing things like putting in phones with extra-large numbers and computer keyboards with extra-large letters. They probably did other things, too, but I can’t remember just what.

      Anyway, get back to Voc Rehab and explain that you aren’t exactly sure what you’ll need and ask them for guidance, or better yet, if they could send someone out to assess your workplace and help you figure it out.

    4. ..Kat..*

      If your company has an occupational health department or employee health department, they can be helpful.

  109. Temperance*

    Somewhat unserious question, in light of the upcoming holiday:

    Is it a faux pas to listen to holiday music in your office? I’m currently playing a Halloween PANDORA station, and will upgrade to my Christmas PANDORA station next week. Does this make me the office weirdo?

    You only hear the music if you actually come into my office, so I’m not forcing my collection of holiday albums on defenseless coworkers. :)

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yes, but you’re my kind of weirdo.

      (says the woman who once had an entire collection of whacky and deranged xmas songs that was never rebuilt after the computer they were on was stolen).

      1. Temperance*

        Oh that is so, so sad! I have a routine on 11/1 where I watch the “Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays” video from N’Sync and follow it up with listening to “All I Want for Christmas Is You” and “Christmas in Hollis”. I’m a delight, LOL.

        I’m currently wearing Nintendo sneakers to Casual Friday.

          1. Temperance*

            Vans! I actually scored them at a discount because they’re trying to make room for their Toy Story collection. :)

      2. Bad Candidate*

        My husband used to put together a CD of “whacky and deranged” Christmas songs every year and pass them out to relatives. It’s amazing how many of them there are.

    2. Murphy*

      I think it’s fine if it’s in your office. I like Christmas music, but I don’t think I could take 2 solid months of it :-P

      2. Talvi*

        Yep. I always feel bad for retail employees who get stuck listening to Christmas music all day every day for two months straight. I loathed it when I worked in a grocery store (and I only worked there two days a week!)

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      No judgment here; I start listening to Christmas music in September, and I have a very large Halloween playlist I break out for October.

    4. neverjaunty*

      Being the office weirdo who doesn’t force your co-workers to experience your weirdness all day is perfectly cromulent.

    6. Jennifer*

      Do you have a private office where you can close the door? If so, then that’s fine. If you are sharing space, then use headphones. Those are the Rules of Tunes.

    7. Lillian Styx*

      I’m so fed up today I am seriously considering putting the Monster Mash on repeat. At full volume. Over the PA. All afternoon.

    8. HannahS*

      Depends. If it’s truly in your office, and the only time your coworkers will hear it is when they pop their heads in to ask a question, AND they have the option of not coming in, not a problem–it’s the equivalent of listening to whatever you want on your headphones. But if I had to go into someone’s office to talk to them, I’d be pretty uncomfortable waiting for a few minutes for them to grab a file or having a discussion or something, and there’s “Oh Holy Night” on in the background, the same way I would be if they were playing evangelical sermons in the background.

    9. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I love holiday music, so I wouldn’t mind at all! But I think most people would be annoyed by it. But if you aren’t playing it loud and you’re in your own office, I think it’s fine.

    10. DragoCucina*

      Thank you for passing on word about the Hallween Pandora station.

      As for Christmas songs…In your office alone it’s okay. If I have to hear it there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. I’m a believer in no Christmas until after US Thanksgiving. I also despise the glurgy aspect of most Christmas music. I play John Michael Tabot’s “Advent Suite” once or twice before Dec 25th and that’s enough.

  110. animaniactoo*

    LinkedIn question: I finally have work again today, but have been taking advantage of LinkedIn’s “Free Week of Learning” and have found the courses I’ve taken/am taking pretty well done, I’ve picked up some tips and tricks I didn’t know. There are other things I’d like to go through, so am looking at paying for a premium subscription to still have access to the courses. In general, I’m just looking for feedback on whether I’ve been lucky with the particular courses I’ve chosen, or if the whole set tends towards well done. For reference, it seems they brought in lynda.com’s catalog and that’s what’s being offered as “InLearning”. Is it worth the financial/time investment?

    1. it happens*

      First check to see if your local public library has free access to lynda.com with your library card.

  111. Bad Candidate*

    This week has been CRAZY. I found out I’m being bumped up to the next level of my job and getting a bit of a raise. That’s good since my current level is the “you’re new and learning” level and the new level is the “you’re proficient in your job” level. I’ve been doing this job for three years. That lack of recognition was a big factor behind me looking elsewhere and while I’m glad it finally happened, I think it’s also a day late and a dollar short. I’m not intending on stopping my job search.
    Second, and I don’t want to go into too much detail, but I had a personal video go viral this week. I didn’t shoot it or edit it, and I didn’t produce the thing the video is about (my husband did all of that) but I did upload it and I’ve been fielding all of the media requests for information, interviews, permission to use, etc. I feel like I should be able to put “successfully managed a viral video something something” on my resume or LinkedIn, right? How would I word it? My BS is in “eMarketing” but I don’t currently work in that field.

    1. MommaTRex*

      I don’t think I’d go resume with it. You could post it as a thing you’ve done on LinkedIn, I’d think, but not quite resume level. In an interview, you could use this experience as an answer to questions that fit.

  112. Peer Problems*

    I need advice on whether/how much to keep personal opinions about individuals out of decision-making.

    I manage an employee engagement program that also has a selective “fellowship” component that provides some pretty cool professional development and leadership opportunities. There is another staff member (peer to me) who I know really wants to be part of this program, but I’m hesitant for two reasons. One, her past applications just haven’t been that strong, and when she wasn’t selected, she complained publicly. Two, I know she also applied to manage this program and I get the distinct sense that she would spend a lot of her time in our sessions hoping and/or pointing out when I make a mistake.

    I think there’s a possibility that my read on the quality of her applications is colored by how on edge I feel anytime I work with her. So, let’s just assume that her application this cycle is strong. What’s reasonable to take into account when making a decision on this person’s involvement? I do ultimately think she’d be successful in the program, but I tense up with dread every time I imagine having to give her instructions or ask her for anything or give her feedback.

    For context, there is a committee that makes decisions on selection for this fellowship. About half of them have explicitly shared that they have this feeling about her, too. The others haven’t shared that and may be more neutral.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Be transparent with your fellow committee members: “This is my take, but I don’t know how much is personal bias based on the edge I feel anytime I work with her.”

      1. Peer Problems*

        Thanks, that’s smart. Any advice (from anyone!) on how to manage that relationship if we do accept her into the program?

    2. Jennifer*

      Well…if literally half the committee has bad vibes about having to give her instructions or feedback, I don’t think she sounds like she’d be successful in the program. That’s a huge problem if you know she’s going to be a problem if you have to talk to her about anything. That to me is a fairly good justification for not letting her in.

      1. Peer Problems*

        True. But she also has people in our department who really like her, which is an additional challenge to manage. It sounds like the right approach to selection is to be upfront about my perspective and the experiences potentially coloring it (same for other committee members), and think through seriously with them her likelihood for success if many of the people she’d be interacting with in this process feel kinda iffy about her.

        I’m also eager for advice about managing this both if we don’t accept her again, and if we do decide to accept her. Anyone have any experience with setting up good expectations with someone in a case like this?

  113. plip*

    When quitting a job how do you cut off ‘friendships’ with work colleagues you don’t wanna stay friends with? I’m leaving my job relieved on bad-ish terms, and there’s one person (above me but I don’t report to her) that I would have been friendly with, i.e. we’ve been for lunch/dinner a couple of times and been to a concert etc.

    However this job has played with my sanity and anything/anyone who reminds me of it….I want it gone.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think the best thing to do is Facebook-friend her and then immediately hide her from your timeline. That way you’re “connected,” but you don’t have to see her posts all the time. Then, 6 months later or a year from now, when the bad taste of that job has left your metaphorical mouth but you’re still interested in connecting with your former co-worker, unhide her and re-reconnect.

      If you don’t do Facebook (or she doesn’t), just do the old school method. Get her contact information (phone number, email address) and then don’t contact her for however long you need to make a proper separation… and then ask her to hang out.

    2. ASJ*

      You may not need to cut off the ‘friendship’ at all – often, those kinds of friendships just die out naturally when you’re not spending so many hours together in the same environment.

      If she tries to keep contacting you, though, it’s okay to respond politely without engaging. Or you can just be upfront and say that for your own sanity, you need a complete cut off from work. Or even, if you’re not mentally up to it, don’t respond to her at all. I don’t recommend that, but depending on how you’re feeling that may be the only option you can tolerate and that’s, while not ideal, okay.

    3. MommaTRex*

      In my experience, these casual friendships die quickly when you no longer work at the same job. Don’t reach out and I think it will fizzle quickly.

    4. Natalie*

      You might be overthinking this a bit. You probably don’t need to proactively cut this person off unless you have a regular poker night or something. Just don’t reach out to them. There’s a good chance they won’t initiate dinner or whatever once you’ve left, and if they do just rebuff any invitations. If they’re persistent, then it might be easier to be very direct and say you don’t want to be friends.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Oh, shoot. Did I misunderstand your question? I thought you wanted to remain friends with that person but just are still dealing with PTSD from the job.

      If you want to cut off the friendship, just cut it off or ghost her.

      1. plip*

        Thanks :) Yes, I am that person who doesn’t want to stay ‘friends’. She called and left a voicemail earlier saying she heard I’d resigned and she was so happy for me and that she can’t wait for us to hang out again and I’m thinking……um, no.

        She’s nice, don’t get me wrong, but we’d never have been friends ‘in real life’ if you know what I mean.

        1. Natalie*

          If you’re comfortable with it, try ghosting and see where it gets you – just don’t respond to that voicemail, and hopefully she won’t call you again.

    6. Chaordic One*

      If I ran into her in a restaurant or while out with friends I’d just say ‘”Hi,” and that I was doing fine and let it go at that. Or maybe even agree that “,We should get together time,” knowing full well that that would never happen.

  114. PX*

    UK commentariat, some thoughts please:

    I started a new job in March, didn’t set out any goals until June, and have my end of year review next week. Any raises are dependent on how well you did meeting your goals. I think I did pretty well in meeting them, and in feedback, my manager seems reasonably happy. Is it acceptable to pitch the idea of a raise based on that?

    It seems like in the past, raises were fairly common if you did fine, but this is the first year the company is trying to tie them to how well you actually met your goals, so not sure if that changes anything.

    Part of me feels like it will be a horrible faux pas, but the other part says why wait a whole other year before asking for more money if I’m doing well…thoughts?

    1. plip*

      Is it up to you to bring it up or will it form part of the conversation anyway? It sounds like it’ll come up naturally, either them offering one or telling you there’s none. And if it doesn’t just ask about it!

      I would say though that in some industries meeting goals isn’t enough to warrant a raise as it’s considered part of your job…and it’s only exceeding the goals that makes you stand out. I’m not saying that will happen to you but just keep it in mind. Good luck fellow UK-er!

    2. Caledonia*

      I think it depends on which industry/job you’re in.

      I work in university admin where you only get incremental raises year on year, or COL raises when Some People (usually unions) fight for more pay (in our case, 1.1%). In my experience, you don’t get a raise but your mileage may vary.

  115. Desi*

    So I got the call from a company I’ve been interviewing with. They told me to expect a call at the end of this week. I’ve done really well in my interviews with them. The VP who I interviewed with responded to my thank you email telling me to stay close with the recruiter as we approach the end of the week. She called today saying things are taking a little longer than expected but they should have an answer either Monday or Tuesday next week and they’re very interested in me. What the heck? I’m totally panicking! I want this position so badly. I’m excited and nervous all at the same time!

  116. Insurance*

    I’m looking for input on an insurance question.

    I left my job earlier this month due to an extremely severe mental illness relapse. I am trying to find insurance coverage now so that I can keep pursuing treatment.

    COBRA is available to me, but I can’t afford it. It’s ten times what my insurance cost when I was working. I just don’t have the money.

    I’m trying to use Healthcare.gov, but I can’t seem to work out how to report a life change or how to apply again (I had insurance through Healthcare.gov earlier this year before I took the job that I left). I followed the instructions for a special enrollment period, but it ends with a screen telling me that open enrollment starts in November. I need insurance earlier than that so that I can go to a psychiatrist.

    What can I do here? Do you have any advice? I’m frankly putting all of my effort into just surviving this, and it’s very hard to keep up with insurance and bills and everything else. Any help at all would be appreciated.

    1. Kristinemc*

      Is there a number you can call for the healthcare.gov site? I know sometimes the website is confusing, but a person can help you walk through it.

    2. self employed*

      I think you can call the HC.gov people and they can walk you through the right steps. I believe mental health is covered at all plan levels. Good luck.

    3. Cap Hiller*

      You have 60 days from when your last health insurance ended to enroll on an exchange (healthcare.gov). Losing your health coverage creates a special enrollment period. All plans are required to cover mental illness and in the same way they cover other illnesses.

      The kicker here is to pay a higher premium for a lower deductible – you’ll have difficulty meeting an annual deductible this late in the year

      https://www.healthcare.gov/coverage-outside-open-enrollment/special-enrollment-period/

  117. nerfmobile*

    I recently received a promotion to a manager role (yay me!) and I want to reflect a little on how that came about.

    The backstory: I used to work in Teapot Technical Support, and had become a manager there. But then I decided to go to grad school and I now work in Teapot Design – I started in design as an individual contributor because I wanted to have a direct impact. I’ve been in Teapot Design for just over 10 years now, and had worked my way up to a high-level individual contributor role. I was planning to stay in my current position for another couple of years before I started thinking about what my next steps would be.

    And then, at the beginning of this year, we had a re-org. I got a new manager, who also ended up overloaded with projects. He had managers to handle the teams for other projects, but for the project I was on he ended up taking the direct team manager role himself. A few months in, we talked about the challenges this was causing him and where the gaps for the team were. I told him of my previous experience – and not that I wanted to be a manager again right now, but I was willing to help fill in the gaps for a time. We discussed what that could mean, and I ended up handling the logistics of teamwork assignments – who was doing what, reviews, workload balancing, and so on.

    Well, come August my manager and our director decided that he really couldn’t keep managing the team directly in any way, so it needed to get assigned to another manager. Although he could have moved our team under one of the other managers, he asked me if I was interested in the role. I thought about it – it wouldn’t immediately mean a grade change or even more money, it was more about the change in the kind of work I would be doing. I liked the Teapot Design work I did, but the manager-type work was also very satisfying. And I realized that when I had a choice of where to spend my energy, I was consistently choosing not the design, but the organizing and planning and strategy tasks. Since I had feedback that I could be successful in either role, I decided to go with the one where I was finding more engagement. I’m also a “get things done” sort of person, and the manager role has more impact on the big picture making things happen, which I like.

    So, I’m very happy with how this turned out. Part of this outcome came from my offering to help where needed, part from my manager’s willingness to give me a chance. And I’m glad I had the chance to compare some of the work side-by-side and see which made the most sense for me!

  118. addlady*

    I have a serious communication problem. As in, I often try to explain a situation or conundrum, and people will regularly be confused or downright misinterpret what I have to say. This means I need to explain myself 5 or 6 times before people get what the issue is. It can be a problem because people will hear one thing and try to address that thing, when I meant something else entirely! Or they will thing my concern isn’t valid and do nothing at all. What do I do?

    1. self employed*

      Here’s an idea: think in terms of a headline. That’s your main point. Start with your headline, then add your supporting details. You may be one of those people who gets mired in less-important details which confuses the listener.

      2. addlady*

        This is really good, thank you. I might also make a habit of writing things out as well. Sometimes seeing things in front of me helps me realize how unclear I’m really being.

    2. T3k*

      How exactly are you explaining things? Like, are you going off in a long explanation or keeping things short? If the former, try cutting to the chase and just state the problem/solution and, if needed, how bad it is. If the latter, try elaborating on the issue, stressing the validity of it. For example, don’t go “This is probably a bad time, but this just came up and needs a look at…” if it’s important, go something like “This problem came up and I need it looked at today/in a few hours/etc.”

      1. addlady*

        Honestly, I think it’s short, but it’s the wrong details! I’d try to provide an example, but I suspect even that would go off the rails. I have a hard time picking out what’s important (like self-employed aptly guessed).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Because you are saying it’s serious, start to tackle this by avoiding slang or unfamiliar jargon.

      Next break out the reasons why they are not responding and make a plan for each reason.

      People hear one thing and address another. Here, you can take a preemptive strike.
      EX:
      What you want them to know: “our teapot order will be late”.
      What you anticipate they will hear: “We are missing our teapot lids”.
      Preemptive strike, “Our teapot order will be late, this is NOT just the lids, it’s the whole teapot order.”

      People think your concern is not valid and do nothing.
      EX. You know that the Big Customer will be hopping mad that you did not get the teapots on time. You know that if Bob calls Big Customer that will sooth angry feathers.

      But Bob won’t make that call.

      You can try to explain to Bob that Big Customer has a history of being grumpy/difficult but Big Customer LIKES Bob. If Bob would just call the Big Customer it would save a lot of hassle and a canceled order later.

      Bob STILL does not call Big Customer.

      My advice here is quit putting up with Bob’s BS. Go to your boss and let him know, “I have asked Bob to call Big Customer to sooth ruffled feathers because the teapots are late. Bob told me NO/did not follow up/whatever. How would you like me to handle this, Boss?”

      Here we broke out a particular reason, people think your request is not valid. In my example, we found Bob could help ease the situation and chose NOT to when asked. It’s time to bring in management and get them to explain to Bob when addlady asks the answer is YES.

      Keep doing this, autopsy what went wrong in each situation and develop a plan to correct it.
      I think that as word goes around “hey addlady is actually following up on her requests” you will see less and less BS. Yeah, I am thinking you don’t have a communication problem, you have a BS problem.

  119. Temporarily Anonymous*

    Any Executive Assistants out there?
    I’d love to get any tips you may have on how you moved into that position. I’m currently in an (semi)entry level admin position but have lately been thinking about where I’d like to end up career-wise. What education did you need? Is a Business Admin degree necessary or did you have another degree/type of experience that got you in? Any particular skillset I should be prioritising now in order to be more qualified for an E.A. job? I don’t have any opportunity for this sort of growth at my current place of employment (government work with the only opportunity for advancement being low-level manager positions) but I’ll likely be moving away in less than 5 years so I’d like to do what I can to improve my career prospects now.
    Any advice or tips would be very welcome!

    1. Pwyll*

      Earlier in my career I was an EA while I was in a degree completion program at night (and for a number of years after graduation). It just so happened the program was in business, but I don’t think the subject of my undergrad degree really made all that much of a difference when I was hired (at that point I was a college dropout who had been studying Communications). I got the job by pointing to my volunteer experiences as a political campaign aide, and the skill parallels of a “body person” aide for a politician, which is similar to an admin in a company.

      I think the most important thing was building a track record of dependability and resourcefulness. I really tried to hone my ability to anticipate my boss’ needs and prepare for them in advance, and make sure she was aware of that, so she could provide a good reference in the future. I also found it incredibly helpful to take courses or self-train on things like intermediate Excel and Word skills. My boss at the time would hand me documents of plain blocks of text or random scribbles of numbers, so turning those into really presentable documents was key. And it gave me something for a “portfolio”. But IMO, the sign of a really terrific EA is their ability to anticipate their executive’s needs and fill in the spots where she is weak. Sometimes that’s being hyper-organized for a normally disorganized boss. Or sometimes it’s just managing the mass of people trying to get her attention. It’s all very boss-specific, but the flexibility is important.

      1. Temporarily Anonymous*

        Thanks, Pwyll. Unfortunately, at the moment I don’t have a lot of opportunity to create portfolio type work (for one, privacy laws would prevent me from keeping or sharing any documentation I create). However, I did recently realize my Word and Excel training is a wee bit out-of-date (like 13 years, heh heh). It hasn’t been an issue at my current workplace since we’re permanently several years behind on technology but other workplaces may not be stuck in the late 90s/early 2000s. I’ll have to look into local training options.

  120. Erica Kelly*

    I’ve been given a hastily assembled, small (12-15 students) class titled “Career Explorations” but there is no curriculum or plans to order any. This class will run for 40-45 days. Any recommendations for materials or suggestions for information you would deem “Must Know” if you were a soon to be graduating student from a lower socio-economic area where immediate admission to a 4 year college is not in the plans?

    1. ASJ*

      Dedicate time to resume and cover letters, definitely. Also interviewing skills, appropriate attire, follow up, etc… I was clueless to most of that when I graduated. You may also take time to discuss LinkedIn, the possibility of networking (though I wouldn’t stress that too much – it’s extremely frustrating to hear “just network!” over and over again when you literally have no one you can network with) and informational interviews.

      1. Talvi*

        If talking about networking, please spend some time clarifying what networking is, and maybe some tips on how to go about doing it. (It was very frustrating for me to hear “just network!!” when I didn’t have the faintest idea as to how to network…)

    2. Jennifer*

      I would want to know information about training programs for vocational jobs if college isn’t in the plans. What are the options for jobs without college at this point, how much do they pay, how much do you have to pay to get training and licensing, etc.

      1. DragoCucina*

        This! Check out the Mike Rowe Foundation. There’s lots of good information about jobs and the skills gap.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Will you have computer access? There are lots of online interest surveys to help them narrow down career choices. Also, look for not-for-profit technical schools in your area – they’ll probably have some resources.

    4. ALH*

      Personal finance! How to budget, the importance of saving, taxes, etc. NEFE (National Endowment for Financial Education) has a great free High School Financial Planning curriculum that you can use as a starting point (just google NEFE financial planning). Also, look into your state’s office of higher education. Minnesota’s has a lot of information about choosing a school (including community colleges), preparing for school, career options, etc. This can be very valuable even if a four-year college isn’t in their immediate future. Looking into two-year options, vocational options, etc. and a path to postsecondary education in the future would probably be helpful. I would suggest looking at nonprofits in your area that provide job training and employment assistance to see if they could provide resources or partner in some way as well.

    5. Damn it Hardison!*

      Issues dealing with professional norms come up here quite a bit, so that might be helpful. Things like being on time, calling in sick, appropriate/inappropriate social media postings. I would absolutely mention the AAM site as a good resource – I made sure the students in my graduate class knew about it, as a large number of them really could use it.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I kind of think that it might be helpful if you had the students do some personality assessment tests, like Briggs-Meyer, so that people will kind of have a better idea of what their natural interests are and so that you can kind of point people to jobs in those directions.

  121. Tookie Clothespin*

    I am looking for my first full time job in my field (marketing and PR related) and I am unsure how to evaluate benefits (both health insurance as well as time off). When I look at a benefits sheet, I have no real basis for how to intelligently evaluate it.

    I know there isn’t a standard of “this is how much the employer pays in to health care and this is how many days off you get” but can anyone give me any guidance? For example, is 50% employer pay premium for health insurance pretty standard? A minimum number of days off you would have accepted starting out? Thanks for any insight anyone can give.

    1. self employed*

      2 weeks paid vacation would be a minimum for entry level jobs. Also consider whether it’s PTO (all time off coming out of one bucket) or sick leave and vacay as separate buckets.

      1. Tookie Clothespin*

        When you say 2 weeks paid vacation are you talking about separate buckets? Or would you be okay with less than two weeks vacation that when the sick time (in separate buckets) is added makes it slightly more than 2 weeks.

    2. Natalie*

      I would try and find out how much in dollars your premium will be, rather than looking at the percentage the employer pays. That percentage doesn’t really tell you anything helpful. You’ll also want to get a basic idea of what the health coverage is – employer coverage that doesn’t cover anything isn’t much of a benefit, after all.

      1. animaniactoo*

        This is a really good point – evaluate the benefit plan itself. How much would your co-pays be (anything over ~$25.00 is not so good) for seeing your primary doctor? How are referrals managed? How much of a deductible do you have to pay OOP (out of pocket) before they kick in to cover the rest? How much of the rest do they cover (usually a percentage between what they’ll pay and what you’ll need to cover yourself)? Are there plan limits to how much they’ll pay out? Is there an OOP limit?

        For reference, my plan is “decent” but not “great”. I pay $20 copay for my regular doctor(s), $40 to see specialists, don’t need referrals for specialists, but do for expensive tests (managed by the doctors themselves), $2000 deductible, 10k OOP limit, and a 40/60 split on the range between the deductible and the OOP limit and specified limits for things like hospice care and the number of mental health/chiropractic/accupuncture appointments they’ll cover. Note that you *can* get more covered but your doctor is going to need to argue the need for more (My chiropractor and therapist have both done this for me in the past).

        1. Tookie Clothespin*

          Are companies pretty good when you ask for this information before accepting the offer? Health insurance is something that is very important to me so I would definitely want to know this information.

          1. Natalie*

            They should have a cut sheet you can review (this may actually be an ACA requirement). They’ll have multiple ones if they offer multiple different levels. It’s totally normal for them to provide this information before you accept the offer, or to provide it upon asking. In fact, anyone who flips out or tries to dodge providing this information is a Communist parade of red flags and should be avoided.

          2. BRR*

            Yes. I would find it extremely odd if they wouldn’t share. I would say “Can I get some information about the health insurance plans to look over?” Overall I would probably ask a few people what they think of the benefits. People who have held jobs at multiple companies. For health insurance you want to know how much you’ll pay and how much things will cost you.

            For days off, it’s what you think you’ll need. I wouldn’t take a job with less than three weeks vacation (plus sick time, I don’t know what I would need). But two is common.

    3. animaniactoo*

      50% paid for by employer is pretty standard, as it is the minimum they are legally required to do in companies that have 49+ employees. Some employers pay the full amount, but they are much rarer.

      As for # of days (pto total, not including holidays) – 2 weeks is a minimum in my opinion, more is better, but it’s also pretty common to limit those benefits in the first year. So you might have 1 week the first year, 10 days the 2nd, and then 2 full weeks the third. Or just go straight to 2 full weeks the third.

      Note those are kind of “bare minimum” of “employer actually considers employees humans with needs”, and I’d say anything over 3 weeks is generous.

  122. Argh!*

    My Argh!!!!! for today: Women who take maternity leave and then quit at the end of it. That’s exactly why getting paid maternity leave in the U.S. (and certainly where I work) is going to be an uphill battle. It’s happened to my rather small organization three times in five years. So the position is unfilled for 3-6 months plus however long it takes to hire the replacement (who isn’t a true replacement until learning the ropes)

    1. Natalie*

      I get that this is frustrating, but I think it’s out of line to blame individual women for the societal and structural reasons that we don’t have paid leave.

      1. Dangerfield*

        Especially when those also share a lot with the societal and structural reasons why affordable and good quality childcare for small babies is basically non existent.

    2. ASJ*

      I think this is why many companies try to have some sort of policy about how long you have to return for after a maternity leave.

    3. Jennifer*

      This sucks (and we had it happen here already once this year and it may happen again), but I don’t really know what you could do to stop it. It’s natural for someone to want to use all the benefits they can if they already know they will leave, and some people intended to stay and then end up changing their minds because they can’t bear to leave their baby.

    4. MommaTRex*

      To me the especially annoying part is when THEY KNOW ahead of time that they aren’t coming back. *sigh*

    5. Caledonia*

      well a) your company sucks and b) other countries seem to manage just fine ( I live in one and we all know the US is in the minority of the leading countries on this). Also, perhaps the fact that the maternity leave is so short could be a factor?

      1. Argh!*

        One of the positions that is currently vacant used to be the position of someone who had a baby and then quit 3-4 years ago. She hasn’t applied for it, so how long should the leave be?

    6. Chaordic One*

      Well, back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd., women who took maternity leave and then quit at the end of it got bad recommendations.

    7. Cookie*

      Or the lack of universal maternity leave may be the reason women leave immediately after they take their mat leave. For example, my friend has wanted to leave her job for a long time, but it’s a government job with benefits such as paid maternity leave. The only reason she hasn’t started job hunting for something better is because there’s no guarantee that her next job will offer maternity leave and they won’t offer FMLA until after the 1 year mark. If maternity leave was universal, she would’ve left her government job awhile ago and they would have been stuck replacing her anyway.

  123. Tris Prior*

    Boyfriend has kicked his job hunt into high gear after his company just did another big round of layoffs (not him, thankfully. Yet.).

    He’s looking for admin/office manager work and we’re both amazed at how nearly EVERY listing he’s finding has as a key duty/skill, booking executive travel. (Which he has never done. I mean, even for our own vacations, I do all of the legwork and research!)

    One even stated that you must have experience booking travel on private jets?!

    Granted, I’ve always worked for tiny cash-strapped companies that can’t afford business travel at all….. but it surprises me just how many jobs require this. I don’t remember him encountering this the last time he was looking, though it’s been a few years and maybe the economy’s improved enough since then that companies are having their people travel more AND are able to pay admins to do the legwork?

    1. Aurion*

      I don’t think it’s all that rare. For any decently-sized company where the top brass will travel frequently, I think it’s pretty common to dump the logistics of booking/planning a trip onto the admins. (The really large companies will probably have the executive assistants doing this and not the general admin/office manager, but there’s a wide middle ground between “company so small that the top brass book their own stuff” and “company so big that there’s executive assistants to handle this stuff”.)

    2. ASJ*

      Nope, most companies are just putting more onto the plate of admins, IMO.

      I remember reading AAM saying that you don’t have to match a job posting 100%. if you have an 80% match, it’s worth applying. They may be willing to teach him that key skill if he has everything else they’re looking for.

    3. velika*

      This is pretty standard for my industry (finance). That said, it’s a pretty easy skill to pick up, especially since “booking travel” probably just means “calling the travel agent and getting them to do it for you”. I doubt it would be a dealbreaker if he doesn’t already have the skill.

  124. NarrowDoorways*

    Question!

    What should I say/do come December 1 when I have co-workers who are no longer salary who still act like it?

    I have at least one co-worker who gets very worked up about “people being mad at her” and occasionally works late on monthly reports so they can be available to other departments as soon as possible. Though I’ve heard others, including her boss and the person formerly in her position, assure her that the normal time they would otherwise be finished is fine, she will routinely stay late the week the report is due. This is her first office job.

    I know she’ll continue doing so come December 1, though I’ve spoken to her about why she shouldn’t. I am not her boss and can’t see her boss actually doing about it. So what then should I do in December? Do I have a responsibility here? It is going to be a very large adjustment to my position and I feel like it won’t hold much weight if I make sure to only work 8 hours a day, as I will not be approved for overtime, if someone 2 rungs lower in the company is clearly willing to work unpaid overtime.

    1. ASJ*

      I’m…. pretty sure unpaid overtime is not legal, depending on where you are. Her boss should be telling that she is not allowed to do that. I don’t really think it’s your place, but you could talk to her boss and point out that she could be exposing the company to liability if she continues to do that.

      Other than that, let it go. If her boss has told her she doesn’t need to do that, then I don’t think it would reflect poorly on you to not be doing it either.

    2. self employed*

      Yeah, it’s illegal and opening the company up to a big liability. Even if it’s done voluntarily.

    3. BRR*

      Unpaid overtime is illegal even if the employee is doing it willingly. I would tell her manager that she is working unpaid overtime and you wanted to let him know since that’s a liability.

    4. Observer*

      Unpaid overtime is illegal. Period. It doesn’t matter what someone is willing to do. If you need more time to get stuff done ask to be approved for over-time, IN WRITING, and if it’s not approved, don’t do it. After that, if anyone actually compares you, you should point out that you are willing to work the time, but it is ILLEGAL and *puts the company at risk* unless you get paid.

  125. Ann Onimous*

    I work in an industry I like, am very well paid, but am often stressed beyond reason. It also doesn’t help that I am more stress-prone than other people, meaning I tend to worry over the smallest things.

    The latest bout of stress has been truly awful for me, so much so that I’ve been having random crying fits throughout the day. I know it’s unprofessional, and I truly tell myself to stop working myself up so much, but somehow these past few days I suddenly found myself crying. I’m not working a client-facing job, but I still feel awful when colleagues see me tear up for stupid reasons. So obviously I decided to move jobs…

    And here are my issues:
    1) I’m not sure if I should move or not. I work in a rather stress-prone industry so switching jobs is unlikely to result in a more leisurely place of work.

    2) I got an interview offer from a recruiting agency, however by looking at the company description it appears like I’ll be moving to an even worse environment than the one I am now in. I tend to reply to recruiters, even to just reject them politely but ask to keep in contact.
    I wonder if I should mention that while I’m looking for work, I’d rather work in a different type of company (eg: larger one)? Or would that sound obnoxious/rude?

    Additional notes:
    – my role is a senior one, and I have about 10 years experience in the industry
    – I tend to get a reasonably high amount of interview invitations, though not constantly. There would be a few months were I’m bombarded with e-mails, followed by a couple of complete silence.
    – I don’t really want to make a decision in the heat of the moment, but I’m feeling more and more miserable at the thought of leaving for work in the morning.
    – I’ve been at this company for 1.5 years. Before that, I worked at 3 different companies for 3, 3.5, somewhat less than 2 years. I don’t feel like I’ve been job hopping so far, and my industry is known for having people switch jobs often. Still… I’m feeling anxious about possible job hopping.

    Long story short:
    – is it rude to reject interview invitations based on the type/size of the company?
    – should I try and tough this period out? Am I whining too much?

    1. ASJ*

      I just have two questions. #1 – are you making the time for self care, whatever that may be for you personally? And #2 – are you sure this is the right industry for you? It may be time to look at moving industries entirely.

      1. Ann Onimous*

        #1 Fair point. For the most part, no. I know this is a big problem.
        I have a huge inferiority complex, so whenever I am not doing work, while someone else is, I feel bad. Or, I feel bad afterwards. Even during holidays I struggle to disconnect completely.

        #2 Hm… I did think of that. However in my country this is the one industry that is truly well paid. Think 4-5 times other jobs. So at least until I finish paying my loan (another 5 years) I’ll have to stick to it. Any other job is going to make it very difficult to keep up with payments.

    2. MommaTRex*

      I don’t think it is rude to reject interview invitations for jobs/companies that you are not interested in. In fact, I think it is the polite thing to do.

      1. Ann Onimous*

        It’s not the rejection per se that worries me, but how to phrase things in a way that says: I AM looking for a job, but not at this type of company, where I’d burn out in no time.

        1. fposte*

          Are there companies you can offer as examples? “I’m looking for the pace of a smaller shop like Ye Olde Teapots rather than a company that does TeaCo’s volume.”

          1. Ann Onimous*

            Hm… I think so. Will have to think of a way to phrase is, cause in my case it would sound like “I’m looking for larger companies like X, Y and Z”. Only problem is, X, Y and Z are the past 3 companies I worked at, and I want to move elsewhere. I’d be rather embarrassed going back… At X and Y especially, leaving made things rather strained.

            1. animaniactoo*

              You could do “places like X or Y, I worked at both of those, but I left X because I wanted a place where _____ was a bigger focus, and I left Y because I wanted to focus more on ______ which they don’t have, but they are both a closer fit for what I’m looking for than Chocolate Teapots which is a very different kind of environment.”

              1. Ann Onimous*

                Hm… I wonder if I wouldn’t be going into too much detail. Maybe it’s just me, but that much details would say “high maintenance” to me.
                I don’t actually know this recruiter, he just added me on LinkedIn. I did actually greatly appreciate his description of the company, as it immediately made me realize that this was not something I could do.

                Incidentally, I ended up phrasing it very similarly to what you posted below. Hopefully, the recruiter will find that useful as well.

                1. animaniactoo*

                  Yeah, for a recruiter you don’t know and don’t have a working relationship with, that’s probably too much info.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Recruiter question: Perfectly fine to reject the company because you don’t like the environment. You can wrap that all up in one on your rejection by saying something along the lines of: “Unfortunately I don’t think X company would be a good fit for me because I prefer larger/more casual/smaller organizations/departments. If you have something that matches more closely I’d be interested in taking a look at it.”

      Stress question: What are you doing for self-care? What kind of an outside-work support system do you have going? Would talking to a therapist about managing your stress be something that might be useful? (No, do not just sit around and suck this up, it’s making you nuts, let’s figure out how to tackle it so that potentially you can be less stressed even if you’re sticking with this job).

      1. Ann Onimous*

        Oh, I really like your phrasing for the recruiter question. Thank you so much!

        Stress related: I love to read fiction: fantasy, sci-fi, contemporary drama mostly, regency romance, etc. It really depends on the style of the author, if it clicks with me I can get lost in a book for hours. I would also vent to my best friend who works in the same industry (that helps a lot), and occasionally to my parents. I generally regret the latter because I tend to end up feeling much worse afterwards.

        I did go to a therapist for a while, it helped, and I felt better. Right now though, I’m rather wary of going to one, due to monetary issues. Like I said, I have a short-term loan with rather large payments (so that I can get rid of it ASAP), and paying for therapy would add stress about money to my plate, on top of everything else.

        1. animaniactoo*

          It sounds to me like what you need most right now is a deliberate plan for self-care. Which might include changing the short term loan to a longer one with smaller payments so that you can see the therapist. You can’t skimp on the most important parts – skimping is for the non-important parts. How long until the loan is done paying?

          One thing I’ve heard has worked for some people who felt stuck or stressed is to think about what they *can* do. You may not enact it, but knowing there is another plan available has helped them be okay with the current course that was making them nervous.

          1. animaniactoo*

            and btw, when I say a deliberate plan, I mean something other than just reading. You need things that do more than just let you escape into something else, they literally make you feel better about you and what you have going on in the life you are living. That can be a range from treating yourself to a mani/pedi or a massage or volunteering somewhere that you enjoy or think is important (if that won’t stress you even further) or making a point of exercise/better eating (maybe just on the weekends when you have more time) all the way up to a planned day to do nothing except read and enjoy your books or hang out and people watch in a park or some such. Usually it’s a mix of stuff, tailored to you and what you enjoy and will make you happy.

          2. Ann Onimous*

            I have another 5 years left to pay. At the time I took it out, it seemed like such a short amount of time, as far as loans go. To be fair, I may probably be overthinking the issue with the money; like I said worrying is one of my biggest issues.

            Yeah, I should start thinking about what I can do. Right now, I am feeling so cornered, and just the thought of work is making my heart beat twice as fast. Rather annoying, seeing as I’m home already, starting the weekend.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Oh yeah, I would see if you can renegotiate the terms of that loan. You may end up paying more over time, but it sounds like you need more financial freedom than you have at this moment for your day-to-day budget. Unless you really think that you can cover the therapist alongside the loan. But I would suspect that the financial budgeting issues are part of what’s stressing you and towards that – whatever you’d end up paying more for having a loan you can think of as the price you pay for peace and space in your current life.

              1. Ann Onimous*

                Thanks a lot for all your suggestions animaniactoo. I will take some time to mull all this over.
                In the meantime, I am feeling a little bit more calm. :)

  126. plip*

    Calling all seasoned managers! With all the experience you have under your belt now, what advice would you go back and give to your former self when starting out in management?

    1. MissGirl*

      Don’t worry about being right and making sure your point gets across. Sometimes your wrong and sometimes they get it without you hammering it in. But also speak up when you need to. It’s a hard balance to find. Also, trust people to do their jobs and allow people to fail as long as they learn from it and actively try to do better.

      1. burnout*

        On 2nd thought, let me expand on that.

        First – don’t do it. It is a headache, managing people.

        Second – IF you are going to do it, make sure it is what you really want to do and you are a good fit for it.

        Third – IF you are going to do it, do it in YOUR style. I don’t mean do illegal things, etc. I mean, manage properly and legally, but don’t twist yourself into someone you are not just to please your boss or the higher ups. If they want a micromanager and you are just not one…. you are going to be miserable. Beware. There is not really a “right” way to manage people. Different styles work in different places and YOUR style is going to be a great fit somewhere. You have to be able to sleep at night. If you are having to be someone you are not, just to have your job, then something is wrong. IMO.

    3. LCL*

      The people in your group, that are disruptive and trouble making, won’t behave better if you give them more of a voice. Don’t empower the troublemakers, but don’t discriminate against them either. Even glass bowls are right, sometimes.

  127. Jennifer*

    Okay, random question: how do you decide whether or not to actually talk about A Problem with someone?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Questions to ask yourself:

      Is this an actual problem, or is it just my reaction to something that makes it feel problematic?
      Is it possible that the problem can be solved?
      Do I have the authority to request/demand that the problem be solved?
      Is solving (or attempting to solve) the problem going to cause additional issues that may lead to even bigger problems?
      Am I the best person to have this conversation with the person?
      Am I sure the person I’m talking to is actually the source of the problem?

    2. animaniactoo*

      1) What is my goal?
      2) Is there a reasonable (on my side) way to achieve my goal?
      3) Do I need a different goal that is more achievable?
      4) What is most likely to happen if I say nothing?
      5) Do the risks of that outweigh the risks of saying something and having that go badly?

  128. MissGirl*

    I’m graduating with my MBA in May and I have a situation that’s going to come up often, and I’m curious how others have made similar choices. I had a job interview this morning at a company I would very much love to work for. It’s a highly desired company to get into, so lots of competition. Here’s the quandary: while the company has offices in my area, this particular position is in Silicon Valley. I have no desire to move there but would for the right offer. It would have to be a very good offer. Even if I accepted, I would look at a one-year time table to either get transferred back or find a new job.

    How have others determined what’s the right threshold for them to accept an offer in an undesirable location? Have you turned down jobs for lesser offers because of location? Do you regret that? How did you handle the interview process? Did you state during the offer stage your desire to relocate to another branch if the opportunity arises?

    Off topic slightly, but I never would’ve applied to this position without my career counselor telling me I should. Going off their requirements, I didn’t think I was what they were looking for. (They wanted a background in finance or consulting and mine’s in book publishing.) However, the first thing the recruiter said was they wouldn’t have interviewed me if I wasn’t qualified, and that the interview was more about determining culture fit. I really need to give myself more credit to the skills I do have. (BTW, she offered this without me bringing it up.)

  129. Spills*

    I’m a little bit late here, but have something that’s been in the back of my mind lately as we head into bonus/comp season.

    I joined a company in February of this year, at a pretty reasonable salary. I was seeking about $2k more, but was happy with this salary, as it was a large increase from my last role. It is also an exempt position. The nature of the role involves quite a bit of travel (usually on weekends), overtime (15-16 hour days), etc. I was told that there would be about 25% travel for the job, which I am fine with, and I think this job comes pretty close to: traveling about 1 week a month, sometimes 2 weeks, but a handful of months with no travel so it should even out to about that. We also often have a crunch time each month, usually the week before each event, where we are working until 7 or 8 p.m. each night for a week.

    My question/conflict is this: I recently learned that 2 of my colleagues who travel to the same events are non-exempt, and receive overtime pay when they travel and work late. Actually, I do this more often, as I am at every event and they split the events between them 50/50. I am not sure of their exact salary level, but can’t imagine it is much less than mine. I feel like I’m getting the short end of the stick here, but am I looking at this wrong? Are there drawbacks to being non-exempt? Does anyone think I could (or should) make an argument to move to non-exempt status?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Aside from the fact that you are traveling to the same events, are your roles similar? If they are, you have a strong case for being nonexempt. If the rest of their job looks different from yours, maybe not.

      1. Spills*

        Hmm..I am the event coordinator and they are the program associates, so they are pretty similar? We are all expected to be on-site at events, but they handle the content side of the events (working with instructors, setting up materials, setting up powerpoints in rooms, creating materials beforehand) while I work on more of the logistics (working with hotel, making reservations, selecting catering, organizing off-site activities).

        I could see maybe if they were not usually expected to be at programs, and these are one-off things, but that is part of their jobs as well.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Drawbacks to being non-exempt: You can’t come in late or leave early to take care of something personal without it being reflected in your paycheck. Your paycheck may be great in weeks where there’s a bunch of overtime, and it can suck hard if there’s a lot of slack time in between those weeks. Or if the company closes for 2 days for some reason. On average, people care a lot more if you’re 10 minutes late or leave 10 minutes early. Mostly that’s a perception issue, but it can have real effects on your job stability, etc.

  130. PhD with a New Possibility*

    A little bit of background about my situation. I graduated with a life science PhD in 2014, and have been in 2 postdoctoral positions, one for 9 months that I moved on because I received an offer for postdoc #2 and because my continued employment in position #1 was dependent on me finding funding to keep my position (pretty typical), as well as other job satisfaction related factors. Postdoc #2 had a significant increase in salary over my first postdoc, about 70%, and was more than 3 times my stipend as a graduate student. The other consideration is that my current postdoc is a contract (no benefits whatsoever, other than it is an educational stipend, so I don’t have to pay self employment tax) and is renewable year to year. I have been in postdoc #2 for 17 months, and have been looking for jobs, because there is no guarantee I will get another year in my current position, I’m pretty sure I don’t want a career in basic research (what a postdoc trains you further for), I’ve got another career path in mind that I’ve been moving towards that my postdoc isn’t really preparing me for, I need to stay in the same area as my wife who has an excellent permanent job, and in reality, the job of a postdoc is to get another, more permanent job.

    About 3 months ago, I applied for one of 3 permanent clinical research facilitation positions at a major local university and associated hospital. I have moved through the interview process, 3 in-person interviews, and checking my references, including my current supervisor. In the process of contacting my current supervisor, they informed me that I am their top candidate and plan on moving forward with my application pending a reference from my current supervisor. The hiring manager talked with my current supervisor yesterday and he had indicated it would be a positive conversation, so I am expecting an informal offer somewhat soon, final offer dependent on the results of a background investigation.

    My question is regarding negotiating salary, and any intricacies of negotiating salary with a state agency. The job posting has both a budgeted salary range and state salary banding information. The high end of the budgeted salary range is about a thousand dollars a month less than what I currently make now, but would include retirement contributions and a bit more vacation time. We like my wife’s health insurance, and it would cost $4 more a month to keep me on her insurance with our son than it does to just keep our son on her plan. I also need to take into account that I will be paying into Social Security and Medicare for the first time in my full time career.

    Does anyone have any advice for negotiating with a state employer? I realize that if I take this job, my take home pay is necessarily going to be less due to a bunch of factors, so I am trying to maximize my salary from any offer that I do get. I have some salary data from some people that work for the institution, as it is public, but there are definitely some salaries missing from the database, because people I interviewed with are not listed. I plan on asking for the health insurance contribution to go into my salary, as well as asking for the highest range of the stated budgeted salary. Does this seem reasonable? One of the things specifically brought up in one of the interviews is turnover due to higher salaries available in industry. Is it worth getting a few years of experience in an environment and stable career path even though I won’t be getting paid nearly what I have been making? I have a couple of other job opportunities I have applied for, but nothing as concrete as this. Just looking general advice as well as some specific information regarding negotiation with a state entity. Thanks!

    1. LawCat*

      I think this is going to be highly variable state-by-state and system-by-system within the state. For my state, in the civil service system, they may pay you at the top of the band (called “hiring above the minimum”) IF you are already making that much, but you have to turn down the offer based on the salary being too low THEN they can offer you a higher salary. It’s bananas and only really known to insiders. It’s frustrating because where I was, you are LOCKED in at where you started at (all future pay increases start from there) so you can easily be behind your peers if you don’t come in higher and they do. Whether you are awesome at your job made no difference to try and close the gap. I quit my last state job over it.

      Honestly, if it’s a public entity, I’d try and get their hiring policies. They may even be online, but if not, may be subject to public records laws. The information may be in statutes and regulations too, but someone out there has surely written a usable guide for HR. Go up beyond the specific university to the university system level as that may be dictating things.

    2. Not my normal alias*

      I agree that this is going to depend on the state. In the state agency where I work, new employees are never hired at the top of the pay band (well, it’s possible that management might be, but no one on a research level). We do have the option to decline health insurance and have an amount put into a flexible spending account instead (it’s not the same amount the state would have paid toward our insurance, though). Ultimately, you may just have to decide if the security, retirement benefits, and vacation time are worth the lost income.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Definitely varies by state. The first thing I was told in my interview was the salary and it was firm and non-negotiable, was I still interested? It wasn’t the bottom of the range but it wasn’t the middle either. Good luck.

    4. Cap Hiller*

      It’s likely they may not have a ton of flexibility to negotiate salary – but there are plenty of other things you can try and negotiate. PTO, flex time, PD, etc

  131. Allison*

    I work on a team of very smart, skilled people, but some of my older coworkers, one in particular, has memory problems and poor attention to detail. Her justification is usually that she’s too busy to pay attention to details, like she has tunnel vision most of the day. I can understand that, to a point, but it’s very annoying when she skims over important information or forgets things like meetings, things she’s told me, etc. And when she’s stressed out she has a habit of treating me like her assistant.

    I’m not her manager, so I can’t coach her on this, but I also don’t work under her in an administrative or secretarial capacity, so I’m not comfortable with the idea that I should assist her by reminding her or spoon-feeding information to her when she’s too busy to look at it herself. I can’t help but feel like she needs to get it together, get herself organized, manage her stress, and find ways to help remember things she needs to remember. But I also feel like if I was a nice person, I’d have no problem taking the time to assist her with some of the administrative tasks she’s too busy for, and I’m a bad person for not wanting to help her get organized.

    To be clear, we don’t do the same job, we have separate job duties and her projects aren’t projects I can take off her plate for her to help her stress load.

    What do you guys think?

    1. Manders*

      Noooooo, you can both be nice and not do this person’s work for her!

      I think this is one of those cases where someone is brazenly demanding something SO outside the norm that you start to doubt your own judgement. She’s not your boss. She doesn’t have the authority to give you assignments. She certainly should not expect you to manager her calendar and all these other admin details for her!

          1. animaniactoo*

            Sometimes you help people by not doing things for them that they should be doing themselves.

            She needs to set herself up reminders and stuff like that – you can “help” by suggesting that she log reminders for meetings in Outlook or GoogleCalendar or stuff like that.

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            First, your dad is wrong. Second, enabling her is not helping her. Like animaniactoo said, you can help her by driving her to learn how to do her own job well.

          3. Not So NewReader*

            He said “wants to” not “actually does”. Go ahead and want to help all you would like,but do not actually help.

    2. Marisol*

      I agree with Manders, and I also think…so what if you’re not a “nice person.” You’re paid to do your job, not hers. Your company expects *you* to excel in your role, not fritter away your resources doing someone else’s. In school, did you ever have someone try to get you to help them cheat on a test? You may have known the material and had the right answers, but helping that person was still cheating. Maybe it will help to think of it that way. Don’t be an accomplice.

      How would you feel about offering some “coaching,” as it were? While it’s true that you can’t treat her like a subordinate, her constant requests for help pretty much leave her open for intervention of some sort. The next time she pesters you, instead of helping her with a specific task, you could address the problem globally and say something like, “Jane, would you like me to show you how I stay on top of my workload? You seem to have difficulty remembering details and while I can’t help you out each time because I have my own work to attend to, I can show you some techniques that I use.”

      In the best-case, but unlikely, scenario: she takes you up on your offer and actually becomes more effective at her job. Worst-case, but still good, scenario: she feels ashamed and stops bugging you. At the very least this would re-frame the situation–right now she treats *you* like a subordinate and that’s inappropriate. But she’s the one acting like a little girl who can’t do her job, so maybe you could be the grownup and take your power back that way.

      If that sounds too drastic, you could try referring her to the original source of information when she asks you, e.g. “you can find that information on the G drive….you can find that information on the master calendar” etc., or you could combine the two tactics: “you can find that information on the master calendar. What I recommend you do is copy the date into your own schedule once you look it up, then you won’t have to ask me to help you.”

      1. Marisol*

        Two other tactics: 1) when she asks you for info that she should keep track of, you can simply ignore the question, like literally act like you didn’t hear it, which sometimes has the effect of making people simply go away, and if she repeats her question, 2) follow up thusly:

        Jane: Allison, when is the team event?
        Allison: [continues looking straight ahead, obviously engaged in a thought]
        Jane: Allison? Hello? I said, when is the team event?
        Allison: [looks at Jane for a moment with a totally neutral expression, as though she is waiting for Jane to finish the thought]
        Jane: When is the team event?
        Allison: [puzzled expression] Huh. I’m not sure why you would ask me that.
        Jane: Do you know what date the event is, or not?
        Allison: Yes, but I don’t understand why you didn’t write it down.
        Jane: Well can you tell me?
        Allison: I can, but I’d prefer if you kept track of these things on your own. It’s on January 3rd. Will you make a note of it in your calendar?
        etc.

        So you’re basically making her work for it. If you give her an unrewarding experience, she will be less inclined to repeat the behavior. It’s a bit passive aggressive, but…that’s okay in my book. This is the workplace, not group therapy.

      2. Allison*

        I tell her that sometimes, I tell her she needs to go into the app we use to find the info, and she usually tells me she’s busy and doesn’t have time, so she needs me to do it for her. You know, to help. Because I’m her helper!

        1. animaniactoo*

          Oh, that’s easy. Tell her that you’re busy too and don’t have the time to look it up for her. Seriously – stomp all over that “I’m busier than you are so you should this for me” mentality.

          “I’m working on the teapots report and can’t look that up right now, sorry!”

        2. Marisol*

          So then ignore her follow up question, and when she repeats it, tell her you’ve answered her question already. Especially if she makes a statement like, “I need you to look it up for me.” Just say nothing in response. It’s not even a question! So you’re not being rude.

          If you think there might be consequences to standing your ground, you need to document these exchanges every time they happen in a file that only you can access. Just a word doc or handwritten hard copy. So if she goes to your boss and starts a thing, you can calmly state what she said, and what your response was, and build the case that you are acting professionally while she is not.

        4. Marisol*

          Something else occurred to me. Since your manager supports you and has been explicit to the coworker about this, what about just looking her in the eye and calmly say, “no.” ??

          I’m not usually a fan of the “no is a complete sentence” idea because I think it can come across as unnecessarily harsh, but in this case it seems justified. She’s been talked to about this several times now, so it’s not coming out of the blue. Just simply tell her, “no.”

        5. NW Mossy*

          “Sorry, can’t help. Maybe you should talk to [boss] if it’s an ongoing problem that you’re too busy to do [X].”

          Something tells me that if the solution you offer is for her to make herself look bad to her superior, she’ll start leaving you alone.

        6. Not So NewReader*

          Because you are her helper?? wth.
          Okay, this woman is getting under my skin and I don’t even know her.

          Stop her from calling you her helper. Tell her that you are her coworker, not her helper and she needs to stop saying that.

          I think you should shut this down entirely. You are getting paid to do your own work and here you are doing the work of two people. I would say it just that way, too.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I think you have to be willing to let her fail at her job if she’s not willing to do it well. You can’t make her pay more attention to detail, but you can stop filling in the details when she doesn’t. You can’t make her behave better when she’s stressed out, but you can say no when she starts telling you to do assistant-type work.

      …even if this means a ball gets dropped. If you continue to help her clean up her messes, there’s no reason for *her* manager to make her shape up — after all, the work is getting done, isn’t it?

      It also helps to get your boss’s support on this if you think she’s going to squawk. “Wakeen, I’m getting a lot of requests from Jane to fill in the details on her TPS reports. I’ve been doing it all this time, but it’s taking away from my own work, so I’m going to stop doing that. Just wanted to give you a heads up.” A good boss will have your back on this and will tell Jane to back off if she starts complaining to your boss.

      1. Allison*

        I have talked to my manager about this, she’s had to remind this woman multiple times that I’m not her assistant and she needs to do her own admin work. But she’s also admitted that people in her position are notorious for lacking attention to detail, and it is a problem that they’re not logging into the business app we use, keeping information up-to-date and really looking for their own information rather than ask me to pull it for them, but she’s not really sure of the best way remedy the situation.

        1. Marisol*

          Well it’s her job to manage that problem, not yours. It sounds like she has your back, on the one hand, which is good, but at the same time, I don’t get the sense that she’s really setting standards and holding people accountable, so she might not mind taking advantage of your willing nature, on the other hand. I think maybe you just need to practice saying no, and refuse to fall into the trap of doing other people’s work.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          She can’t remedy the situation because you won’t tell Jane NO on a consistent basis.
          You have to tell her no. Sorry to be blunt, but this has gone on too long and Jane needs to do her own work.

    4. Annie Moose*

      If you let her treat you like her helper, she’s just going to do more and more of it. It may feel mean or rude to stop helping her, but that’s not your responsibility. Your company doesn’t expect you to take responsibility for Jane, it expects her to take responsibility for herself! So don’t feel guilty.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Does she have an admin? Or is there a department admin?

      Before my work at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd., I was a department admin in a state agency and this was one of the things that I did, reminding the people in my department about meetings and deadlines and things like that. It endeared me to them and they really seemed to find it helpful and to appreciate it.

  132. De Minimis*

    Been sort of directionless these past few months….neither my wife nor I are really into our current jobs, and aren’t really excited about staying in this area, but we’ve just been here a year and a half. I haven’t wanted to move cross country yet again, and we’re not sure where we’d move anyway–there are places we like, but the job market for both of us never seems great.

    Yesterday I saw a fed job in a city about an hour from where we live, and I’m excited about it—it would allow me to get back in step with what I like to do professionally [my current job pays well and I like the people, but the work I do is really dull and a big step down from my previous position.] And the city has a slightly lower cost of living to where we might even be able to afford a home. Anyway, I’m giving it a shot. Also would like to be back in the federal system [I have nearly 8 years in from previous jobs and right now that seems like it’s kind of gone to waste.]

  133. A Mess*

    My job is awful–quintessentially awful. I have been trying to hold out here until I can find something else because that seems to be the common wisdom, but things are deteriorating here to the point where I wonder if I could be damaging my career (not to mention my health and sanity) by holding on in a really untenable situation. Is it really always best to stay until you have another job?

    1. justsomeone*

      Not always. If you can afford to Nope out of there and still pay bills while you look for something else, that’s an option. But if you can’t afford to live while you search then it’s better to stay at a job you hate than be homeless.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Only you know how your health and sanity and career are holding up, but as someone who’s had a couple of different periods of unemployment in my life, I will say that it really is usually best to stay until you have another job if you can possibly manage it. If you can, focus on that paycheck and let everything else be a motivator to keep the search active. Good luck!

    3. Been there*

      I would stay unless you are about to do something drastic/possibly fatal rather than come in tomorrow. Stand it for as long as you can stand it.

    4. Joanna*

      Obviously if you are at physical risk (eg, the work is hazardous without appropriate safeguards, there’s good reason to think you’ll be assaulted or it is badly exacerbating a medical condition) you should get out straight away. Same goes if the work environment is prompting you to self harm. As for jobs that are horrible but with less dire consequences it gets a bit more tricky. Unless the stress is likely to cause you to turn in such appalling work that you’re likely to get a brutally bad reference, you’re possibly not damaging your career more than not working at all. Then again, if your job is awful because the company is embroiled in a publicly known scandal, the impact of staying gets more murky. You might have a clearer mind and more time for job hunting if you quit, but that advantage might evaporate you get stressed about money or are discriminated against for being out of the work force for a while.

      It would be a good idea to sit down with a wise, sensible friend to work through the pros and cons of your particular situation. If you can afford it, an appointment with your accountant or financial planner to work out how long you could afford to be unemployed if you struggled to find a new job might also be worth it.

  134. TheLazyB*

    I got a shitty email today that started ‘to be blunt’ and went downhill from there. That pretty much zapped my energy for the rest of the afternoon. I’ve been working so hard on a particular project for bloody ages and every time I think I’m getting somewhere something like this happens, and the rest of my mini-team were off so I couldn’t even vent.

    I have no problem with being told no, but don’t be mean about it!

    That is all.

    3. TheLazyB*

      Thank you both! I did have fun plans but my 5 year old threw up in his sleep about an hour ago so I guess I’ll be looking after sick child instead. Not impressed :(

  135. Sparkly Librarian*

    I dread public speaking. I have a degree (major and minor!) in performing arts, so I can fake it to a certain extent, but to me a scripted performance is very different from speaking off the cuff or giving a speech… like fiction vs. nonfiction. Nonfiction scares the heck out of me.

    As part of my job, it looks like I’m going to have to start presenting multiple times a week to an audience of ~50, either at my office location or offsite. (Offsite is worse, because I have to bring supplies with me and figure out where I’m going and get there on time and be the only person who doesn’t know where the bathroom is… *anxiety spiraling*) Apparently people in my department do this all the time and it’s not a big deal for them, and it’s completely normal. Which I can see it being as part of the field, but I somehow avoided it during school/training. I’m really hoping that the worst anxiety will taper off through repeated exposure, but I am cringing so hard at this development.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        I thought about it. I can bring some notes with me to keep my talking points at hand (no one else uses notes, so that may be conspicuous), but a large part of the presentation is answering questions from the audience, so that will have to be unscripted.

        1. Mary M*

          When I took a couple of performing arts classes in college we did some guided imagery work, if you’ve got experience with that could you work on imagining a document in your head and “reading” off of that to answer questions?

    2. misspiggy*

      You will definitely get used to it. It’s still a performance – you are trying to manage and enthuse a room full of people, who will be just as effectively influenced by your performance skills as a theatre audience. The only difference is that while you’d know the whole of a script, there will be bits of the discussion where you don’t know the material confidently. I think the key is to be clear with yourself where you know the material and where your knowledge is less confident. Where you know the material well, give yourself a script and learn it. Even if that’s several standalone, practised statements that you move around as you need to. If shakier areas come up, it’s fine to smile and say this isn’t your main area of expertise, but your view would be x. As you do more, you get better at learning the script for questions that are likely to come up next time.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I had the same situation. Taking a storytelling class was helpful for getting over the nausea and the jitters. Recently I read a book on Ted talks and found that inspiring. TED Talks
        The Official TED Guide to Public Speaking
        Chris Anderson

  136. Lord Chisselchin*

    A few years ago I accepted a contract job to get into a field new to me. (Doing similar types of work I had done before but in a different type of product.) The placement from a well-known temporary agency was to be for one year and I remained as a temp at the large company for two years because I liked the work and the people and they liked me.Consequently I went to two different job interviews at two different companies that had an opening doing the type of work that was similar to the work I did as the contract worker. I had extensive job experience (10 plus years in fully benefited positions) before I worked as a temp. At both job interviews I was asked my salary expectations BUT they both (two different companies) phrased it as ‘Since we would be offering full benefits (as opposed to what you had before) what are your salary expectations?’ I gave my answer of what I was worth and I didn’t get any offers. I felt they were trying to low-ball me. The way they asked the question seemed to imply that since I had taken temp non-benefited work that I would take anything. I don’t have a job now, but I don’t want to work for a company that would pull this anyway; both of these companies were large well known companies. I have saved former employers tons of money from my contributions so I know I was worth the figure I mentioned. Has anyone had the experience where once you take a temp job you are suddenly devalued?

    1. Marisol*

      Totally depends on the workplace culture. In my office, which is corporate, I wouldn’t do it. But there’s no simple answer to that.

    2. Not my normal alias*

      Leggings are not pants. Wear them with a tunic or dress. (As to whether they’re appropriate for your particular workplace, that’s something only you know.)

  138. Anon 2*

    I’m hoping it’s not too late to get some feedback.

    A few weeks ago I found out that I’m getting a new direct report (Jenna) starting in a couple months. However, I know that Jenna is going to be pissed, because while it isn’t a demotion in title it is in reporting structure.

    Right now, both Jenna and I both report to our boss (Jack) who directly manages our department, and three other departments. The new reporting situation complicated by the fact that three other staff in our department are more junior (one, Kenneth is significantly more junior) than Jenna will all continue to report to Jack. Additionally, Jenna has an attitude problem and hasn’t been pulling her weight in the department.

    So I’m deeply concerned. Jenna is only reporting to me because Jack is tired of trying to manage her. Jenna and I have been co-workers since she started five years ago, and she has expressed repeatedly how feels like I have to leave for her to receive any sort of promotion. So I feel like I’m being put in a no win situation. Jenna’s attitude sucks at the moment, and i can’t imagine she’d respect me as her supervisor. I have two other direct reports, both of whom are part-time and support positions. This is the first manager level employee I would be supervising.

    Help! Any suggestions about how I can get this new reporting structure off well? Especially knowing that Jenna is going to be pissed about the change.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Tell Jack ahead of time about the challenges you expect with Jenna, and get really, really clear on the consequences that you have the authority to impose. If you’ve gotten aligned with Jack on that and you know, for example, that you have the authority to fire her if you need to, it will likely make you more confident and authoritative in dealing with Jenna, which sounds like it’s going to be needed.

      The deal can’t be “manage Jenna but without the authority to fire her if she doesn’t shape up.”

      1. Anon 2*

        I won’t be able to fire her. I will be able to recommend her dismissal after a PIP (and I won’t be able to put Jenna on a PIP without Jack’s approval), but no one other than Jack has the authority to fire anyone in any of the departments he oversee’s, even if the employee doesn’t report directly to him.

        I hope you feel better sooner rather than later.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          In that case, the thing to get aligned with Jack about is whether he’ll be willing to fire her if the problems continue and you go through a PIP process. You don’t want to take this on and discover that you have no ability to enforce consequences with her and that the person who doesn’t won’t do it.TThe fact that he’s transferring her to you because she’s a pain to manage indicates he might not be the most, uh, forthright manager, so you really want to get aligned with him on what will happen if that’s the road Jenna takes herself down.

          (And thank you!)

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          And presumably, if Jack were willing to fire her or put her on a PIP, he would have already done so. So basically, all that’s happening here is that he’s taking an employee he doesn’t want to manage but won’t fire, and scraping her onto *your* plate. Nice.

          1. Anon 2*

            That pretty much sums it up. I think Jack will let me put Jenna on a PIP (he’s basically told me that he will), but this is mostly so he doesn’t have to manage her.

            The whole situation is hysterical in a sick and sad way. Because the one staff member that it makes the most sense for me to supervise also has performance issues, but that reporting relationship won’t ever change, because that employee is Jack’s pet. I actually feel bad for Jenna, because despite her performance issues, this is really is a passive aggressive way of punishing her. I’m just stuck in the middle.

  139. Anon for this*

    I have a management dilemma, in that I don’t think I’m a very good manager.

    I’m in my late 20s, and this is my first office job. Unexpectedly, I wound up supervising a few student workers. I have very little guidance or oversight in my management of them.

    I’m really struggling with speaking up and providing feedback when there’s something they need to improve on. I also struggle with creating professional standards that are consistent and fair. The issue is that the students are mainly back-up admins who help with small tasks or watch the office when others are away. It’s often not that critical if they’re dependable or hard-working, but when they really are needed, it’s a problem if I have to walk them through a basic task or I don’t have admin help when I’m swamped because the student is late. I trained them when they were first hired and have tried to make resources available to them, but I don’t feel confident that they can take care of stuff when push comes to shove. And I know it’s partly my fault for not being better about delegating. It’s a vicious circle.

    Any suggestions on how to build more confidence in this situation?

    1. NW Mossy*

      In some ways, managing students or those otherwise very new to the world of work is more challenging than people expect. The responsibility to do so is often put on people who aren’t formally managers because the true supervisor isn’t able to provide the intensive desk-side supervision and training they tend to need (full disclosure: I delegate day-to-day oversight of a 1 day-per-week high school intern that reports to me). Students also tend to know very little about overall work norms, so they make a lot of obvious errors like being late while they’re learning.

      What I found has helped me, my staffer who does the close supervision, and my intern is for me to be very clear with both of them about my expectations and reinforce them as needed. I set the overall stage, and then my staffer knows that if an expectation is not met, she can reinforce by saying “Remember, Mossy said you can’t take a 2 hour lunch” and such. It also really helped my staffer to hear me share some of Alison’s words of wisdom about interns, which is that they’re here to learn about how work works and we do them a disservice if we assume they know things or don’t clearly call it out when they fall short of expectations. Since I started doing this, it’s been going a lot more smoothly and they have more confidence.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      I wouldn’t approach this as a disciplinary thing, since they’re likely being paid around minimum wage and should be prioritizing their schoolwork.

      I wish someone had told me how helpful it would be to enter the workforce already having office experience and a good reference. You could tell the students that they have a lot to gain by proving their competence to you.

  140. Leslie*

    Alison, you had a fantastic section once where people wrote how much they earned and what their job was. It was a bit hit! I was wondering if you would do that again, but ask people to add the following details to that info:
    How many hours do you work a week?
    On a scale from 1-10, how happy are you with your job?
    How many years of experience do you have working?
    How many years of study did it take for you to be able to be qualified for you job?

  141. CheeryO*

    Just a quick vent – I have been very lucky as a young female engineer to not have experienced much overt sexism yet, but I just had an unpleasant experience. Went through a coworker’s emails (with permission) since he’s out long-term and I needed to find something. Didn’t snoop, but attached to an email chain that I needed was an extra few exchanges about me (or, to be more accurate, my appearance) between my coworker and someone we both work with at another agency. I had literally just met this guy, and apparently he just HAD to turn around and inform my coworker that he found me attractive. My coworker said that I’m too young for him, the response was deleted, and then he called the other guy a “shameless dick.”

    I know this is probably minor in the long run but it just makes me feel gross. In my dream world, I reply all’ed and said “And she’s so nice and smart, too! What a wonderful young lady.”

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s not minor. It’s gross and demeaning to know that your coworkers are assessing you sexually.

      Honestly, at a minimum I would take that email chain and show it to your coworker when he’s back and say “I would have hoped that you would have pushed back against a colleague saying something so inappropriate and demeaning rather than cheerfully participating.”

      1. animaniactoo*

        This is interesting, because it didn’t sound like “cheerful participation” to me rather than a shut-down. Could have been a more professional kind of a shut-down, but it sounded like a shut-down to me.

        Is there more tone to the original that would help clarify, CheeryO?

          1. Chaordic One*

            I agree with animaniactoo and take the coworker calling the colleague a “shameless dick” as being like saying that the colleague was “a jerk.” But maybe I’m wrong about that.

        2. Ultraviolet*

          To me it sounds pretty similar to, “LOL, there you go again.” I think that in a context like a casual email between colleagues, “shameless” is usually meant to be funny. Maybe slightly irritated, but mostly funny and not meant as a serious criticism the target is expected to respond to. I read it as participatory too.

    2. animaniactoo*

      On the plus side, it sounds like your co-worker didn’t have any problem calling him out and telling him it wasn’t okay.

      But yes, icky. Sorry about that. Can I offer you an e-hug?

  142. Mary M*

    When a company counter-offers to keep you on do they always over more money? I’m not really interested in more money with my current company (ok the COL raise that the whole company didn’t get last year would be nice) what they really could do to keep me is transfer me to another location.

    Full Story:
    I’ve been working in chocolate teapot design for the last 6 years (since finishing a graduate degree in teapot design). At the time I took the position with my current company (3 years ago) it was a great fit and with a company I loved, we provide on site teapot design services to many different small factories. At the time I was led to believe that while I was working in chocolate teapot design the company would help me get more experience in sugar teapot and marshmallow teapot design; that opportunity has not materialized despite my asking at each performance review. In addition this experience in sugar and marshmallow teapot design is crucial to being able to pass my teapot design certification exam.
    I’m currently assigned to two different factories part-time at each.
    Factory A is EXTREMELY particular about their contracts and requires a lengthy credentialing process, they are also odd in that the staff is mixed with two teapot designers being directly employed by the factory and contracting for a third and a Chief teapot designer. The current Chief designer and I are the only people employed by my company credentialed to work in this factory.
    Factory B is a very small factory in a rural area (two time zones away) and I must fly there every other week to inspect the machinery and perform maintenance.
    Over the last two years there have been some cultural changes both in the company and in the factory A. The changes in the company aren’t great but I could live with them if it weren’t for the changes in factory A. Three months ago the company brought in a new Chief designer to oversee me and the two local teapot designers at this factory. This new Chief has been demeaning towards me, treating me as his secretary instead of as someone who spent 6 years getting two degrees in teapot design, and expecting me to do my own work and a hefty portion of his. I have alerted higher management about these issues because I have been unable to resolve them with him but they seem to have done nothing to address the issue. I suspect this is because the contract with factory is up in three months and replacing him in that time frame is really not possible (it took three months to get him credentialed).
    In the next two weeks I’ve got interviews for positions as a teapot designer with two small factories and I am hopeful to be offered at least one of them, both would give me experience in sugar and marshmallow teapot design and one would even give experience in taffy teapot design which is hard to come by.
    If offered one or (fingers crossed) both of these positions I intend to let my current company counter-offer if they desire. Because the teapot designers organization I belong to publishes a salary survey each year I know that I about $8k underpaid for my education and experience. I would accept a transfer to be full time at the smaller factory or one of a number of other factories is there a good way to ask for this if the c0mpany does try to keep me?
    Wow that turned out to be a lot longer than I though

    1. MissGirl*

      Don’t wait until you have an offer. You don’t want to have to hold them over a barrel to get what you want out of your job. Ask now and see if it’s feasible. Even if it is, be careful of taking it. If the problems you’re facing are factory-specific, why hasn’t the company done more to address it? You don’t want to transfer factories and have some of the same problems eventually creep up in the new place.

    2. animaniactoo*

      This isn’t the answer to your question, but I wouldn’t accept a counter-offer. Because based on what you’ve said, I wouldn’t trust them to follow-through. “We can do that in 2 months” – and then wait 2 years while there are more logistics to be worked out, etc. sounds more like what you could actually expect if they did counter offer. Are you willing to do that? Particularly if (while) the sugar and marshmallow experience opportunities/requests continue to be ignored?

      I mean – if what you suspect is true about the guy at Factory A, they couldn’t even give you the courtesy of “We understand – we’re looking at it as a short-term problem, can you ride it out until the contract is up?”

  143. MacGirl*

    Preparing a resume for a job opportunity that I am head-over-heels about. I freelanced some in the past and am wondering if I should include that in the work experience, set it off under additional experience, or create a freelance work section. Thoughts?

  144. story of the day*

    “I don’t care anymore!” I shout as I double-check every single number in the document.

  145. Rusty Shackelford*

    Just a little rant… When your competition says they can’t do X until next week, and I call you and you badmouth them and say “of course they can’t do X right now; I get people here every day because they can’t do X in a timely manner, but I can do X tomorrow!” Then you better damn well be able to do X tomorrow. Because now, all I know is that you’re a liar, and your competition was at least honest. And I’ll be getting X later than I wanted it, but I’m getting it from your competition, and I’m never attempting to do business with you again.

  146. AnotherFridayVent*

    Rant: I have read AAM since before starting my current job of almost 2 years, and I can recognize my company, my managers and myself in soooo many posts. Briefly, the current situation is that I was never onboarded, and instead of giving me feedback when I started, my coworkers and my then-boss traded tidbits about me privately – they were unhappy, but never told me (I found out by accident). To make matters worse, we are all virtual. So there is no personal connection or bond. I later found out that the job description I was recruited for really did not fit what they actually expected me to do. It is understaffed, so everyone lurches about in crisis to crisis. I’m sort of the right person but in the wrong role (this was supposed to be my dream job) and the mistakes that I have made have essentially made me the black sheep, but they won’t fire me. I’m just in limbo, and this has been incredibly demoralizing, because I have been successful elsewhere. I was supposed to get a review but have not, and now another week is ending and I can’t even get answers to the questions I need in order to do my job. Meanwhile, they are advertising a large chunk of my job, but didn’t tell me, and they are having me work with other people in the company, but aren’t telling me why. A friend of mine who was once in a similar spot said the only thing worse than being fired at this point is staying here indefinitely. Thank you for listening.

  147. Rubyeyes*

    This is kind of a vent. I go once every few weeks to a Workability office, which is supposed to help people with disabilities find jobs. It is semi helpful for government jobs and helps with interview practice, but otherwise lackluster. This week when I came in, my counselor said he found a job that might be good. When I looked at the ad, it looked kind of odd. Like commission based sales when the job was collecting water samples. I looked closer and the email included in the ad was a generic gmail address not a @company.com one. Luckily he didn’t press me to apply, but was just weird.

    2. Candi*

      (Bounces up and down in her seat and waves her hand)

      It’sascamit’sascamit’sascam!!!!

      (Deep breath)

      The con is you’re allegedly selling water treatment devices/chemicals. They’re worth less than a MLM salary promise.

      The salesman goes up to homes, often targeting older women who are SAHMs or housewives, or retired. He talks his way in, gets her to let him take a sample of tap water, stains it with special chemicals provided by the same company that sells the water cleaners, and shows her under a microscope the horrible things that are dirtying up the water.

      But fear not! The product he’s shilling -selling will wipe that right out! And it’s available NOW for a series of low, low monthly payments, interest free for the first three months! You can even sign up to receive further information/products for another low fee!

      Three guesses where the crap in the water sample actually came from.

      And income is strictly commissions, with a ridiculous amount going to the company for essentially harassing the vulnerable. Don’t do it.

      I read about cons and scams for fun, and this one I still at lead time fifty years old.

      (And this is late, but it’s important.)

  148. Rob Lowe can't read*

    One of the departments I work with has a temp (maternity leave). The temp is covering what is arguably the hardest job in the department (we are structured in such a way that she has to cover the exact duties that the person on mat leave covers; shifting duties is not possible or indeed desirable), but she’s doing a heck of a job with it. Out of nowhere this week, she gets offered a full-time permanent position at a place where she interned last year. So I think, wow, sad to see her go, but good for her – I can’t blame her for jumping at the chance for a full-time job with better pay and waaaay better benefits.

    But there’s this other temp who was covering another challenging leave-of-absence. She couldn’t hack it and somehow got our Big Boss to pull someone from another department to cover the LOA, and now she’s covering that guy’s position (which is lower-ranking and much, much easier). And now that the good temp is leaving and the other LOA is ending, the temp who couldn’t hack it is going to be covering the tough position in my department. I worry about what kind of disasters may occur in the next few months.

  149. CoffeeLover*

    I have two things I wanted to ask this weekend, which are both semi related to work and life. So I’m going to post one here and one on Sunday, since I don’t know where they really belong! Here we go:

    My husband and I are both early in our careers, but even though he’s older, I’ve been working in an office environment for longer (and I’m also addicted to AAM ;), so I feel like I have a better understanding of office norms. He started his first real office job a few months ago and he likes to talk about it… A LOT. Subsequently, I find myself giving him advice a lot and I don’t know if I should or how to stop. I’m what you would call a “fixer” and I come from a family of fixers. I know sometimes people just want to talk about their experiences without getting feedback, but I find it difficult not to give advice when the time comes. (This is also partly because, when I talk about stuff, I genuinely want to hear the other persons opinion or thoughts on what I should do.) In my husbands case, I can give you a few examples. He’s told me a couple of time how him and his coworkers went to dinner at a very expensive restaurant and he was worried about having to pay. I told him that the most senior person will pay so he doesn’t need to worry. He told me how his coworkers got upset with him during training because they received positive feedback from the facilitators, but he didn’t think they did well, so he said as much. I told him that’s not really the kind of stuff you want to rock the boat on. etc. etc. It’s usually very minor stuff. What do you guys think though? Is this the kind of stuff I should step back and let him figure out on his own? Also related, how do I get him to stop talking about work so much? Honestly, I’m worried about hurting his feelings. I also talk about work, but I tend to talk at more of a high level whereas he really gets into the nitty gritty. I basically want to tell him not to talk about work unless it’s something worth mentioning (ouch!). Should I wait to see if he cuts back naturally after being in the workforce for longer (maybe this is just exciting stuff as someone who’s new to the work world)? I tried to have this conversation earlier by saying that maybe we shouldn’t talk about work so much because he was just starting and I felt like I was giving him a jaded view of things (my previous job was very similar to his and let’s just say I’m not there anymore for a reason). Needless to say he didn’t pick up on that hint.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ooooh, I encourage you to post this on the weekend open thread too if you’d like since it’s late in the day on this one and the question really straddles both work and personal life. (It’ll go up at 10 a.m. Eastern time on Saturday.)

      One immediate question I have (and maybe you can include the answer if you do post this on the weekend thread too) is how he responds to your advice — is he receptive, skeptical, etc.?

      1. CoffeeLover*

        Ok, I will try to post it in next week’s thread, or maybe the thread after that :P. I mentioned this last week, I’m in africa now (and also struggling with Internet connection) so it’s hard not to miss the boat on the open threads. It was nice having the earlier thread last week though I’m sorry it was as a result of your ongoing sickness :(. Get better soon!

        As for your question: I think he’s receptive, but that’s partly just his personality. It’s not the worst problem to have as a wife, but he can be TOO receptive/accommodating to the point where I sometimes feel like I’m unintentionally walking all over him (I don’t think he feels that way but it’s something I worry about). It’s a bit of a clash of culture: he’s northern European and I’m eastern European. Anyway, I will try to elaborate that piece of it repost.

    2. animaniactoo*

      A few options – and maybe some combination of this can help:

      1) A preset time where he gets to vent for 5, 10 minutes, and then work is off-limits.
      2) Asking him if he wants feedback, or just to vent.
      3) Accept that his office is going to be a completely different environment and maybe his whole approach to work is going to be completely different and none of it is going to be “wrong” per se, unless something becomes an actual problem. So when he says he didn’t feel they did so well, instead of telling him it’s not the kind of stuff you want to rock the boat on, ask him “Why did you feel that way?” and/or “Why did you think that was important to say? What were you expecting to happen?” and just listen. Then you can answer from your experience of what you would do and why, vs “giving him info about office norms”.

      But above all – tell HIM you’re feeling weird about all of this and you’re not sure what you should be doing – what does he want, what is he looking for from you, and what you can do/say that doesn’t leave you feeling uncomfortable. He’s the other half of this, solicit his feedback and see what he thinks will work for him.

      1. De Minimis*

        I have no advice, but I remember making a similar transition to office work and it was a lot to get used to.

        I

  150. Bowserkitty*

    My interview on Wednesday went really well. I absolutely killed it. But I know I’m against two others. I should find out in a few days.

    I just have to hope I’m better than the other two and that my cheery personality will give me the edge, because until I found out at the very end from one of the interviewers there were others, the hiring manager (who would be my boss) made me feel like I pretty much had it in the bag. @_@

    1. Jadelyn*

      Some interviewers are like that. We’ve got one guy who we cringe when we have to let him interview anyone, because he’s so overly enthusiastic with literally all candidates that every single one walks out thinking they’ll probably have an offer letter in hand the next day. Until they say “yes we want to hire you”, try not to read too far into stuff like that.

      1. Bowserkitty*

        While I do think I have an advantage given I used to work for their rival company (I was told former employees of said company make up 80% of their current workforce), for all I know so do the other two people. The hiring manager seemed to have a great rapport with my old boss there so there’s that, but in the end you’re so right, Jadelyn! I’m just so ready to get out of this stupid unemployed funk.

  151. Jadelyn*

    Wish me luck…

    So my car broke down on Wednesday. Busted clutch. I kind of knew it was coming (she’s been shifting rough for awhile) but what I didn’t know was that this car, which is new-ish to me (bought the start of this year) is laid out such that they have to drop the transmission to get to the clutch and replace it. Which means double the labor costs and took replacing a clutch from costing $800 (painful but I can cope) to $1400 (oh god I cannot cope).

    My boss has been super generous about helping me get to work while mine is in the shop – since I live along a slight detour to her usual route to work she’s been picking me up and taking me home – and this morning on the drive in she mentioned scheduling my annual review for next week.

    Coincidentally, I’ve been pulling together documentation to push my case for a promotion and raise. I rewrote my job description to be an accurate depiction of what I’m responsible for these days just to see how much things had really changed, and it is wildly different from the original. Plus, we’re hiring a second person with my same title but meaning for them to just take a lot of administrivia off my plate – they’re officially reporting to my boss but functionally I’ll be heavily responsible for directing their day-to-day work – and it seems weird to me that we’d have the same title but a very clear duties tier – administrative for one and specialist stuff for the other.

    So I think this is well timed. I’ll make my case when we meet next week. If I can get up the courage to actually do it…

    2. Bowserkitty*

      Oh man, good luck!! I was told one of my belts is cracked so I’m in the process of figuring out if my warranty covers it. Labor costs for car repairs make me start to rethink my education history and I want to learn to be a mechanic. LOL

      You got this, you have to believe in yourself. :)

  152. MnGreeneyes*

    Okay. This just happened today. (Its going to be a bit of a story, and about something totally mundane, but please bear with me). I had a meeting with my supervisor for my “mid year” review. Mid year for HR is in July, but that’s another story. He started with an event from yesterday.

    Anyway, yesterday I was confronted by another member of the staff. Not one in my department, but the receptionist from the front desk. She is almost always confrontational with myself and my officemate. She likes to change rules because she is “too busy.” She has stopped notifying our team members of guests waiting for our team. She no longer lets us know that we have packages or deliveries. She tries to make trouble for our team, especially the other admins. and play the martyr. She works in the Dean’s office (higher ed.) so we generally just bite the bullet and give in to her as we have been told to do when we have complained in the past.

    So yesterday she stopped me in the hall to inform me that the refrigerator was being cleaned out and I needed to get “your” stuff out of there. I work in fundraising and am one of four admins. for the department. There is none of “my” stuff in the refrigerator. Our department keeps a stock of pop (yes, I am from Minnesota) and water in the refrigerator for events with donors and alumni. We are currently in our busiest season and have events almost daily and multiple times on most days. As usual, I said I would take a look at it and make sure it was done.

    I went to the refrigerator since I was headed that way anyway and the only “stuff” in the frig besides the Dean’s office pop and water, was our pop and water. Just to clarify if our pop and water needed to be removed from the frig (which would have been the first time in 4+ years that this would have been required), I went in search of the receptionist. I found her in the copy machine room and asked if we needed to also remove our pop and water. She said yes and informed me that we were not allowed to put it back! We were supposed to put our beverages in the frig day of events only as it was too crowded in the frig. I was so shocked by this new rule that instead of just responding yes and going to my supervisor, I pointed out that we have events almost every day and that that wasn’t going to work. It went back and forth for a few minutes, which I never should have done. I own that. I shouldn’t have asked the follow up question in the first place. We talked about other refrigerators and I even suggested combining our supply into one so that we all had cold pop and water as needed. (absolutely not!!!!) The end result was that I said that I would talk to my supervisor to work out some kind of solution with her supervisor and walked out. As I left the room, she loudly said, “Oh good, now she’s pissed.” I know I shouldn’t have, but I turned around and said, “Yes, I’m pissed.” I have a voice that carries in the best of circumstances. According to reports, I was all but yelling. I wasn’t even that upset, just exasperated. I walked immediately into my supervisor’s office, which was just round the corner and apologized and told him what happened. He sat there completely stone faced and didn’t’ say anything about what he heard or what I had to say.

    Flash forward to today. Our “mid year” reviews were scheduled on Wednesday for today, but were put on our calendars as 1 on 1s and he refused to confirm that mid year review was the reason for the meeting. We have gotten no real feedback since March or April when we did our year end reviews. (Our year runs January to December, FYI).

    So the meeting starts with him asking if I had gotten some bad news or something the day before that had caused me to say what I said. I said, no, it was 4 years of accumulated stuffing of the receptionist’s rudeness, etc. He then proceeded to tell me that it couldn’t happen again. I had said something similar when I walked into his office the day before. I told him that this was the first time in more than 4 years of working here that I had ever gotten into a conflict like this with a coworker. I again apologized. I said, I own my behavior, but I want to know what is being done about the receptionists behavior. Did her supervisor even know about it? “Well, she knows about your behavior because she heard you…” I again repeated that I acknowledge and apologize for my behavior and it would not happen again, but I wanted to make sure that the other side of it was addressed as well.

    He didn’t know. He then tabled that discussion and continued with my review. He brought up several points that I had written down that I wanted to talk to him about so it was going pretty good. Then suddenly he brings up an incident from the beginning of the month where we were in a meeting with one of the people I support. I had asked a question, but instead of answering my question the person I support moved on to another subject. I stopped him and said, hang on, you didn’t answer my question. (I really needed that answer). My supervisor claimed that I was brusque and rude to the person and that I needed to soften my approach. ( Yes, I am in Minnesota, and all three people in this scenario are Minnesota/Wisconsin raised.) I apologized and said I would work on it in the future and thanked him for bringing it to my attention. (It was the first time that it had been mentioned to me.) He kept bringing it up so finally I asked, I wouldn’t ordinarily even mention this, but what’s the chance that this is a criticism because I am female?” He didn’t have an answer. (I asked another person who was in the meeting if she felt I had been brusque or rude and she didn’t remember me being brusque and claimed she wouldn’t have been as polite as I was if it had been her. She would have called me on it if she thought I was out of line.)

    I was then given a “letter of expectation”. He said it was because of the outburst in that hall (“use of profanity or expletives and tonal escalation or raised pitch” – the word I used was pissed. and I said 4 words. “Yes, I am pissed.” and walked away), but it included several other things including my tone and pitch from the “you didn’t answer the question” incident.

    It also included an item that was from two months ago that I didn’t even know there had been a problem on. Background: In an effort to help a stressed out colleague, I offered to type up the onboarding schedule for an incoming coworker. The document was used by both me and the stressed coworker. All I did was type the schedule and schedule the meeting with the dean. The other person gave me all the rest of the information. That there had even been a problem on it was news to me. Evidently, the dates of two meetings had been transposed and caused the dean’s office to have to scramble. (As I think about it right now, I vaguely remember the onboarding person mentioning that she had gone to a meeting and the dean wasn’t there, and I remember thinking at the time that I didn’t’ know why she went to the dean’s office on that day because that wasn’t what I had on the schedule, but it was at a very busy time and I was swamped in other things so didn’t ponder it until now. )

    So the letter of expectation is not supposed to be disciplinary, but it states “I expect that your performance will improve immediately and on a continuing basis I will meet with you during our regularly scheduled one on one meetings. If, at any point in the future, you fail to meet the standards set forth in this letter, it may result in disciplinary action. As always I am available for coaching and assistance when ever necessary to help you meet these expectations.” Sadly, when I have gone to him for “coaching” in the past in relation to a particularly unorganized fundraiser who I support, he had no suggestions for me.

    What do I do with this? I’ve already apologized for what happened yesterday and thought we had moved on, then today…Do I write a response to be included with the letter in my file? One of the expectations was timely completion of job duties – which as he was going through it, he stated that I hadn’t ever not gotten my projects done, but it was still included in the letter as though I had missed some deadline! He offered no examples of a missed deadline in the letter or in person. I am so at a loss right now. Thoughts?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Essentially, it sounds like you were handed Performance Improvement Plan.

      I would consult with HR about how out of line this seems to be with the feedback you had previously gotten, and what options are available to you. Also to discuss ways to manage around a receptionist who is not doing their job – won’t notify you of guests! wtf?

      Question: Does anyone know if the dean knows about the kind of stuff she’s doing? Because if nobody is telling him, I’d say there’s a high likelihood that s/he’s being told by her that “there’s been a problem with X department, but I sorted it out.” or “I notified X department that they can’t store their stuff in our fridge anymore, they were upset about it, but they’ll follow through” without being told HOW that message was delivered, or that there was no other reasonable solution for how your department was going to have drinks available.

      Now honestly your supervisor should be the one discussing this, but if he’s not going to do it (and nobody else will either), my best advice is to start jobhunting now as it looks like you have pissed off She Who Must Not Be Named and are now going to be her direct target and weasels are gonna let her have you.

      1. Anon Responder*

        The receptionist seems untouchable and intentionally pushing your buttons. I think the supervisor bringing up something from months ago out of the blue in a written performance document raises a lot of alarms for me. Something eerily similar happened to someone I know along with “needs improvement” in reviews that they NEVER do. It was all teeing her up to be fired. She could not get any specifics on the time months before when she had supposedly been “brusque” (and so could not get feedback on how to fix such a thing), agreed she could improve other areas and she needed training, and then received positive written remarks on her performance for several more months up until the day they shit-canned her a few days before Christmas to the complete shock of the other staff. (It was an extreme shock, a new low for Toxic Manager, and morale TANKED. Other staff started going into the managers offices asking if they were going to be fired.) The review was part of their documentation for firing her. I would start looking for another position if I were you.

      2. MnGreeneyes*

        Your question is exactly what has been happening for years. Her trouble making for our department includes not letting us know a meeting has let out, even when explicitly asked, and cleaning up the room, then going to her supervisor to complain that my department and specifically the admins are not doing their job. Because of the politics of her being Dean’s office staff and me not, we have always been told to essentially grin and bear it. We haven’t had a real leader of our department for about three years. We had three people leading our department and it was a mess. A year ago we got a new leader/Asst Dean. At the same time we added my supervisor as kind of a chief of staff. We were hopeful that they were going to come in and be even reasonably strong leaders and help get things under control and they keep talking about how they are, but hope died for me today. Up to this point there hasn’t been much leadership or management from our perspective, but there hasn’t been anything that was just messed up either. But now…

        I am a union employee and have contacted my steward to find out what this is all about and if they can provide any assistance with it. I have been job hunting for a while, but am trying to get out of being an admin, which I have done for way too long, which is causing problems. I have a BS in education and 8 years of teaching experience, but it was 9 years ago. I also have a MA in Nonprofit Management. I am trying to transition to higher ed academic success program management. Managing tutors and doing some teaching. I was planning to send out some resumes again this weekend, but now I am even more motivated.

        Coincidentally, my office mate got reprimanded in her review also and it was directly because of me too! I have advanced Microsoft Office skills. Someone complained that my officemate has limited technical skills and relies too heavily on me for her job. Again, this was related to an incident that was not brought to her attention at the time (June), but was held over her now. She has sufficient office skills for our jobs. Mine are better and when things get really goofy on Word or Excel, I can most of the time come up with a fix or figure out what went wrong. She is no longer allowed to ask me for help on Microsoft office. She said that if they would let her know where her skills were lacking she would gladly take classes to increase her skills. Unfortunately, no one even thought to bring it to her attention for 5 months! We are both working on our exit strategies. We are second and third in seniority in the department with a combined total of 14 years in the department. we currently are the institutional knowledge of the department, but if they want to clean house, that’s their prerogative.

        1. MN Higher Ed*

          “I expect that your performance will improve immediately and on a continuing basis I will meet with you during our regularly scheduled one on one meetings. If, at any point in the future, you fail to meet the standards set forth in this letter, it may result in disciplinary action” Keep your eyes on the prize. The behavior identified is the raising of voice and reacting to the receptionist. Stop. Just stop. A problem has been identified by a manager. Your manager has to go through a step schedule for a PIP. There still is an oral warning, a written warning, etc. (this process is in your union contract) You have the power to put a stop to this process. Keep your voice low. Your tone even. Do not interact with the receptionist. Restrict your contact to email and cc your supervisor. Think, how important is it? Do you have to restock the soda and water in the fridge every morning for that days’ events? Do that. “Coaching.” Perhaps you perceive that as a “helping term” Coaching meeting are for your manager to continue to identify and an alert you of “non-improvement” And yes, look for a new position as you have stated that you are not happy in this one.

          1. Another person in higher ed*

            The disciplinary letter quotes. It sounds like your dean is not happy with your “performance”, the timely completion of duties part is “boiler plate”. Let us imagine that your dean truly wants you to succeed. You have completed your work on deadline, so far. Let’s say in the next four weeks, there is a documentable instance of an assignment with a deadline that is incomplete. That can be documentable by your dean as part of the “next steps”. To cover yourself, confirm every assignment in an email.
            Very short. “On Monday at 12:30, you requested I follow up with the catering company for Thursdays lunch. 12 box lunches will arrive at 11:30, 2 gluten free, 1 vegetarian, the rest assorted.” At the end of every week, write a short email summing up the week- ordered supplies, compiled fundraising packers, followed up t-pot seminar arrangements, confirmed guest travel. Document issues- still looking for solution to fridge issues. Should we look at a dorm fridge for just our dept. use?

            Document the oppositional receptionists behavior in separate emails- Jonny Rotten was kept waiting in reception for 15 minutes as Sansa failed to notify our department of his arrival.
            The printing contract that was overnighted sat in reception for four hours although I had stopped by and noted that we were expecting an important FedX envelope at 8:00 am.

            As others had noted- it might be time to move on, but move on, on your terms. The University may have other jobs in your class. Apply. Make it possible for your dean to give you a good reference.

            I know you want to help out your colleague but stay out of her business. Take care of yourself now.

  153. Riverosprite*

    I am writing on behalf of my sister. She is reentering the workforce after almost four years after having a baby and staying home with the lil one. During that time, she also learned Spanish with the help of my native speaker husband. She has passed the B2 level DELE exam.

    She has had interviews where they ask her to talk in Spanish for verification (usually along the lines of “Tell me about yourself, in Spanish!”) but she had one recently that was a little odd.

    When she mentioned her Spanish level, the interviewer told her speaking Spanish was a huge plus then he switched into Spanish. Except she couldn’t understand a word he said. He couldn’t understand her either, and apparently got very snide toward her after that and implied she lied about it. Then he called a few days later and left her a voicemail in Spanish. She couldn’t understand it. I couldn’t understand it. Finally, my husband listened. It took a while, but he was able to piece it together. He says it was like a blend of really bad Spanish with even worse Portuguese. We think the message was something like: Even though you lied about speaking Spanish, if you can understand this, call us and we will schedule a second interview. (Husband and I think this message is a red flag.)

    My sister really wants this job–the benefits and flexibility it offers would be fantastic for her–but is trying to figure out if/how to address this in a professional way if it comes up again in the process. Any advice?

    1. Colette*

      Why does she want to work for someone who thinks she’s lying? It sounds like the job is good on paper, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually a good place for her.

    2. BRR*

      Is this the hiring manager or a recruiter? I would treat it as a red flag if this was the hiring manager. If it’s not someone she would regularly be involved with I might just say “I believe it was a combination of Spanish and Portuguese.” Then something about demonstrating her proficiency in another manner like with a different person. If this was a recruiter who left the message I might even bring up that message to the hiring manger. And if it was on a cell phone voicemail, have it available to play in case it’s asked.

    3. Ultraviolet*

      Would the interviewer be her boss? If so I would be really wary. “Even though you lied about speaking Spanish…” is such an immature thing to say. I agree with you and your husband on that. If interviewer wouldn’t be her boss in this job, maybe it’s less bad.

      Is there any chance at all that the interviewer and your family speak very different dialects? Even if you doubt that could be, I think that if your sister wants to move forward, she’s probably best served by acting as though she thinks that must be why they couldn’t understand each other. I think the options are to offer to speak with some other people at the organization in Spanish, or just let it go. The former would be a pretty tense way to start a working relationship with this guy though. I’d only consider it if she’s not supposed to work closely with him.

      Or if there’s someone closely involved with this company that she knows really well, she could ask them for advice.

      1. Marisol*

        One mitigating factor about saying “even though you lied about speaking Spanish” is that when people don’t speak a language well, they tend to express themselves crudely. So while on the face of it, it’s a pretty darn rude thing to say, it *might* not be as bad in this case.

        Regarding the dialect idea, at first I thought it was reaching a bit, but I googled and found this:

        Caribbean Spanish
        This dialect is spoken in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, and along the East coast of Mexico and Central America; it is characterized by elided middle consonants and omitted final consonants, as well as an aspirated ‘r’ that is pronounced like the Portuguese ‘x.’

        So maybe he is from the Caribbean?

        I wonder if the sister could just follow up and say something like, “while it’s true that I’m not a native speaker, I did pass the B2 level DELE exam and have been able to converse successfully with other Spanish speakers. Is it possible that we have regional differences that prevent us from understanding each other? Maybe there’s someone else I could demonstrate my speaking ability to…?

        I dunno, just an idea…

        2. Ultraviolet*

          Thanks for looking up that dialect stuff and sharing it! Interesting. I like your wording “regional differences that prevent us from understanding each other.”

          It’s a really good point that if the interviewer doesn’t speak Spanish well, he might not have intended “even though you lied” to across as it did. But my impression is that he was snide and implied she lied at the interview in English as well.

        3. Riverosprite*

          We are also toying with the idea that he might have been speaking Galician. It might explain why my Spaniard husband was eventually able to put it together, but my sister and I (I learned in Latin America) were completely lost. It’s spoken in Spain, but closely related to Portuguese.

          I do not know if he would be her boss or if he’s just the interviewer. I can check with her, though.

          1. Ultraviolet*

            Wow, Galician would be interesting!

            I don’t know your sister’s situation, but if this guy is supposed to be her boss, I would definitely anticipate some stress in this job. I know it’s not easy finding a job after four years though, so I’m not saying she’d be crazy to take it. It always depends.

          2. Marisol*

            Interesting. I wonder if he looked European? If it was a dialect, it seems like a sensible person would take that into account and not get all huffy. Especially if he lives in a part of the world that speaks a different kind of Spanish. Here in L.A. where I am, more Spanish speakers are from Latin America than anywhere else so…very few people would be able to understand that dude.

            1. Marisol*

              in case it wasn’t clear, I mean the interviewer was huffy, not your sister…! hope she gets a wonderful job soon.

          3. New Bee*

            Yeah, I was going to ask if he could’ve been speaking Catalán, but even then it would be a red flag for someone asking for “Spanish” proficiency in the US to not expect most people to speak some version of Castellano.

            1. Mander*

              He could be speaking a different dialect, but to my mind it doesn’t explain the rudeness or the claimed inability to understand her.

              I did my PhD research in the Catalán area, but I learned Spanish in the US from Mexican-American teachers. Every single person I met in Spain was able to understand me, and for the most part they phrased their responses using Castellano words that I was more likely to understand (or else taught me the Catalán for whatever I was trying to say). I worked with a guy who was Galician but on the odd occasions when we decided to speak Spanish he knew what I was saying.

        4. Riverosprite*

          Sister says interviewer1 would not be direct boss. Her understanding is that interviewer2 would be.

          She is also wondering if she can outright ask interviewer1, if she happens to see him when she goes in for interview 2. Something like: “I hope you don’t mind me asking, but where did you learn Spanish? As a newer Spanish speaker I still have trouble with different dialects. I would love to be able to research the dialect you speak, especially as I prepare for the C level exams.”

          1. Ultraviolet*

            That’s promising! I mean, the presence of a jerk like interviewer1 would still make me a little wary, but I’d definitely be open to the second interview if it were me.

            I hope interviewer2 has plans to assess her Spanish. If they don’t bring it up, she should ask them about what opportunities the role has to use her Spanish skills, and in what context. The reason I suggest bringing it up is that I’m worried there’s a possibility interviewer1 might have marked her down on some paperwork as not speaking Spanish, and so interviewer2 might not ask.

            I think if she finds herself speaking with interviewer1, it would be appropriate to say the thing you suggest in your second paragraph. I would change “I still have trouble with different dialects” to “I was not at all familiar with your dialect,” which is a little more positive and is harder to construe as an admission of fault. But I’d say she should be careful not to ask it in a situation where it would seem weird that she’s asking him about that and not about the job itself. Like if interviewer2 brings interviewer1 in for part of the interview, don’t ask where he learned Spanish then. It’ll look like a weird thing to focus on. But if there’s a lunch during the interview or something or she runs into him in the elevator, I think it’s fine.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Oh my goodness, she needs to run away from that workplace! What a jerk. She doesn’t want to work with him.

  154. DArcy*

    I currently work at a security company, and we have a rank structure in which the front desk person is *technically* in charge after the duty supervisor, but they’re not *really* in charge because their job is primarily dispatch and administrative support. This position has a *lot* of turnover, so virtually all of the front desk people are extremely junior compared to our security officers, in contrast to our actual supervisors who are all promoted from security officers.

    Our newest front desk person appears to be trying to advance in the company by undermining everyone else around her. She is exhibiting a persistent habit of interacting with management as much as possible in order to make it look like she’s super amazing at her job when she’s actually pretty terrible because she’s blatantly not paying attention to the more experienced front desk people who are training her. In the past week, I’ve caught her repeatedly reporting problems *caused by her own failures* to management as if they were *team* failures which she diligently uncovered , and she has also been reporting officers directly to management (bypassing and undermining the supervisors) for any perceived deviation from company procedure — even though they *weren’t* actually doing anything wrong, and she *should* have known that.

    She has also started lecturing the entire front desk team via the daily report emails that all front deskers sent at the end of their shift, phrasing her “concerns” as if she was the team lead as opposed to the most junior member of the front desk team. That’s the factor that makes me increasingly sure this isn’t just a case of coming from a previous job with a more aggressive social atmosphere; I think she’s gunning for the actual team lead position (which is currently unfilled due to said turnover; management currently feels that *all* the front desk staff are too junior for lead, and has one of the next-tier-up administrative staff acting as lead).

    As someone not particularly versed in the art of handling office politics, I’d welcome any advice on how to handle this situation constructively.

    1. Marisol*

      wish i had this earlier in the day.

      if the overall company culture is healthy, this will likely take care of itself–people will recognize her bs; in particular, the supervisors she is going over will speak up and their bosses will deal with it appropriately. if the culture is toxic and management is susceptible to ass-kissing, it could be a problem. Where are you in the hierarchy, and how is you relationship to the supervisors and/or management? If you’ve got some street cred there, then I’d voice your concerns to the higher ups. Give specific, concrete examples of what you have seen, and focus on that, rather than your suspicions. (I think it’s probably find to maybe make one mention of this, e.g., “I’m concerned that she is more interested in looking good than in actually learning how to do this job properly”) but if you focus too much on what you *think* is going on in her head, you risk looking paranoid, or like you have bad judgement.

      If you are one of the people she is lecturing via email, and her tone is truly inappropriate (for example, maybe she is berating people, saying rude things like, “stop and think about what you are doing instead of making all these stupid mistakes”) then that is cause to speak to your boss or HR. Alternately, if you can catch her in a mistake in that email, then you can point this out, via group email (since she has already emailed everyone, a group cc is called for in response): “actually Jane, you misunderstand what the correct procedure is. In fact, we are supposed to do xyz” but be sure to keep your tone professional.

      There are so many ways this could go but it depends on your standing, position, and company culture. Those are just a few ideas off the top of my head.

      And if all else fails, maybe she’ll quit soon, since it seems that happens a lot. Or, if she does get promoted, what is the worst that could happen? Is there really any threat here?

      1. Marisol*

        oh, the purpose of “calling her out” in an email is to 1) establish an awareness among others in the company of the problem, in case they are buying into her act; 2) get something memorialized that you can refer to in the future, if you need to (email is forever!); and 3) send her the message that *you* are not to be trifled with.

        it’s also probably a good idea to have a few friendly, get-to-know conversations with her to find out what she is all about. Where she’s from, what are her interests in life, that sort of thing. it may be that she is well-meaning but clueless, and if not, then you’d be doing the “keeping your enemies closer” thing.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I don’t know if you’ll see this, but I think your best move would be to recommend additional training for her to her supervisor “Jane seems to be unaware that several of the problems she’s reported to upper management have actually been caused by her own work, and she seems to have a shaky grasp on what is are actual deviations from company procedures vs slightly different handling that is still within company procedure and norms.”

      1. DArcy*

        I am seeing this, thank you!

        I’ve talked privately with the team lead since my initial post, and she confirmed that she is aware of and *very* displeased with Jane’s behavior to date. Jane’s behavior hasn’t crossed the line to anything fireable yet, but she is definitely alienating everyone who works with her on a regular basis — front desk team, officers, and supervisors — and I suspect she will be let go as soon as we are less shorthanded on the front desk.

  155. Newish Reader*

    Great news: I’ve been covering the responsibilities of two positions for much too long, putting in extra hours every week. But we finally hired someone new this week for the other job. Before too much longer I’ll only have one job to do. What’ll I do with all of that free time? (That is rhetorical, I’m actually looking forward to getting back to friends and hobbies.)

  156. Marisol*

    wish i had this earlier in the day.

    if the overall company culture is healthy, this will likely take care of itself–people will recognize her bs; in particular, the supervisors she is going over will speak up and their bosses will deal with it appropriately. if the culture is toxic and management is susceptible to ass-kissing, it could be a problem. Where are you in the hierarchy, and how is you relationship to the supervisors and/or management? If you’ve got some street cred there, then I’d voice your concerns to the higher ups. Give specific, concrete examples of what you have seen, and focus on that, rather than your suspicions. (I think it’s probably find to maybe make one mention of this, e.g., “I’m concerned that she is more interested in looking good than in actually learning how to do this job properly”) but if you focus too much on what you *think* is going on in her head, you risk looking paranoid, or like you have bad judgement.

    If you are one of the people she is lecturing via email, and her tone is truly inappropriate (for example, maybe she is berating people, saying rude things like, “stop and think about what you are doing instead of making all these stupid mistakes”) then that is cause to speak to your boss or HR. Alternately, if you can catch her in a mistake in that email, then you can point this out, via group email (since she has already emailed everyone, a group cc is called for in response): “actually Jane, you misunderstand what the correct procedure is. In fact, we are supposed to do xyz” or if you

    There are so many ways this could go but it depends on your standing, position, and company culture. Those are just a few ideas off the top of my head.

    And if all else fails, maybe she’ll quit soon, since it seems that happens a lot. Or, if she does get promoted, what is the worst that could happen? Is there really any threat here?

      1. DArcy*

        I think our company culture is relatively healthy, but we’re chronically understaffed and undermanaged — we’re still mostly structured as a closely held small business even though we’ve grown much larger than that. As a result, a bad front desk person is in a position to cause quite a bit of trouble simply because there’s not necessarily anyone else in a position to refute any accusations she makes to upper management. If she gets promoted to team lead, that *will* get considerably worse.

        My position in the hierarchy is. . . weird. I’m a senior security officer, but I’m also the only reserve front desk person in the company — which means that unlike a regular security officer who basically only acts as a receptionist when they cover the front desk in the absence of a front desk person, I have the training and computer access permissions to do the full job. In the past, I’ve also worked as the reserve/acting supervisor because management trusts my judgement, although the need for that has largely passed since we’re (for once!) now fully staffed on supervisors. Socially, I have a substantial degree of “golden girl” status because I’m dead reliable in showing up as scheduled — which should be a basic professional norm but isn’t in this business — and because I’m one of the only officers who is willing to come in on short/no notice and work heavy overtime to ensure that shifts are filled. I’ve also been pretty much “officially unofficially” told that I’m a top choice for the next round of supervisor promotions, although those happen irregularly based on vacancies, and that the main reason I wasn’t selected in the previous round of supervisor promotions is that the company was burned by fast track promotions in the past so they’ve informally gone to not promoting officers who have been with the company less than a year. (Yes, I’m a senior security officer at less than a year. Our turnover’s about that bad, and the number of hours I’ve worked is comparable to most officers at 2-3 years.)

        For the moment, I’d say I’m primarily focused on protecting our junior officers from being unfairly reported to management. I’m reasonably confident that our current team lead (who is super nice) will handle the overall performance issues, and she’s the person with official responsibility to do that in the first place. I don’t want to step on her toes, and I will certainly be reporting any concrete and documentable issues to her.

        I did push back on the reports to upper management where I knew what actually happened — since the company president e-mailed the entire front desk team to lay down the law regarding the rules violations that had been alleged, and I was filling the front desk shift when that e-mail came down, I e-mailed her back explaining the context I was aware of in that case. I did not CC the entire team, since the e-mail didn’t direct us to take disciplinary action against anyone — it was more or less, “Security officers are not allowed to do X, although Y and Z are permitted if they’re told to by a supervisor.”, so I responded, “My understanding is that Officer A was actually doing Y, but I will certainly keep an eye out for X as directed.” The annoying thing in my eyes is that X does occasionally happen; what the new front desk person did that was wrong was falsely reporting a *specific* officer was doing it, when she wasn’t.

        1. Marisol*

          Really late response, but you do indeed sound golden! And it sounds like this will work itself out in time. I wouldn’t worry; I would just keep doing the great job you are doing and don’t hesitate to report anything factual to your boss(es), as it sounds like you are already doing.

  157. flipping THRILLED*

    Hi hello! First time poster, long time reader of this blog, and I need to get this out somewhere, even if I’ve missed most of the open thread traffic. I just need to share my joy. I’ve already told friends, and I want to tell literally everyone I see, but I can’t share my happiness at work for obvious reasons. SO.

    I have a coworker who decided my first week on the job that she hated me. She made a point of showing it in ways that I couldn’t miss, but that I couldn’t complain about without sounding like the crazy/petty one (“She always glares at me!” “She keeps casually interrupting me to address people I’m speaking to as if I’m not there!” “She had a whispered conversation with a third party when it was just the three of us in an elevator!”). Like, any of those things alone might be clueless or mildly rude at worst, but it was consistent, and really obviously targeted at me, and it just wore me down a lot. The worst was when I got a promotion by applying and interviewing for a vacancy on my team and she stage-whispered about how terrible it was that I got a promotion with her work spouse, who sat directly in front of me.

    Anyway, she’s LEAVING! She got a different job! In another city! I don’t have to suck it up and be the bigger person after literal YEARS of keeping silent because it’ll be a non-issue! I will never see her face in my place of work! She’s going to a great job at a great organization in a different time zone and I genuinely wish her the best! I hope she loves the job and the city and has a wonderful, fulfilling life and career! Far, far the hell away from me!!

      1. Chaordic One*

        Well, it’s not as good as if she were called out by her supervisors for her BS, or as if she were actually fired but, yes, enjoy it.

    2. Temperance*

      You don’t have to wish her the best. ;) Good riddance to bad rubbish!

      I hope that there is a cadre of mean girls at her new place of work who will knock her down a peg.

    3. Jean*

      I liked flipping THRILLED’s approach of taking the high road (except for the “Far, far the hell away from me!!” part). Hating on someone takes up bandwidth and energy that could better be spent on living happily or at least strategically (e.g., “Forget her–I’m going to rock my job until I either get a promotion here or take myself to a better position elsewhere.”). Why volunteer for more stress and indigestion when life already gives us plenty?

      1. Jean*

        P.S. Mazel tov on having this difficult person finally exit your existence. It feels wonderful when this happens!

  158. Mela*

    If I’m uploading a resume for grad school recruiters (for Fall 2017), do I put a relatively prestigious internship that hasn’t started yet (Jan-June 2017) but would be very relevant to the graduate degree? I’ve worked for 3+ years post Bachelor’s but this is a particularly relevant internship. If I put it down, I would just have one bullet point in future tense describing the research project I’d be working on

    1. MissGirl*

      Since you will have started before the start date, I would add it but be clear it’s upcoming. Then they can weight it or not.

  159. Family on the Mend*

    Feeling blergh this week.

    (Background is my family members have been sick for 4 months and are still not fully recovered, may not be until the end of the year or even summer. I am the only driver and employed person in the household.)
    My boss had a talk with me about how I should start looking into finding people to help me out in getting to appts and maybe cut down on my atypical hours. Is this kind of crappy or am I crazy? I’ve been using my PTO very responsibly, have over 70 hours left and my company doesn’t have a rollover policy. Why can’t I use it the way that I really need and would like to use it? I just need one afternoon off a week and a full day off a month, totaling 20 hours per month. Surely this prevents me from taking a whole 9 days off in a row which is better for business right?

    In other news, I’m not sure if I will end up panning out in my job, and am exploring entry level Cisco network opportunities because I like problem solving, data entry, and sitting at a desk. How would I go about learning if this would be a good fit for me?

    1. Temperance*

      Honestly, it depends. Are other people picking up the slack while you’re taking care of family stuff? One afternoon a week could be a lot, in that case. It’s almost better to take a full week. Could you teach one of the other people in your household to drive, or utilize Uber/cabs? When I was sick/recovering from a hospital stay earlier this year, my husband drove to work most days and I called Ubers for appointments and to take me to the ER. It was NBD.

      I also can’t comment on atypical hours without knowing more. Do others have this benefit? It’s actually pretty common for a business to approve PTO based on business needs.

    3. Family on the Mend*

      Boss may be worried, but maybe I need clarification on whether they are worried about me or the business needs. My counterpart wouldn’t really have to take over for my being absent any more than they’d have to for conventional use of PTO. Family members are bad with technology… I’d say there’s no chance of Uber. I’d assume others have the same PTO benefit. One coworker even announced this week that they were leaving 3 hours early… as they were leaving. Certainly by formally submitting PTO requests I am doing better than that!

    4. animaniactoo*

      It’s really not crappy – they’re not your personal health appointments, and it’s an extended period of time with no end in sight. Even the end you mention has the potential to roll much further out.

      Because it’s so regular, you’re essentially converting your work schedule to something different than everybody else. That’s not an appropriate use of PTO no matter what you’re using it for unless you have your manager’s specific buy-in to do that. Before agreeing to that, it’s really not unreasonable of your manager to ask you to figure out something that doesn’t rely so heavily on you. To ask you to reach out to and develop enough support system that you aren’t the sole resource for your family in this situation.

      Look at it from the company’s standpoint – the longer this goes on, the more likely it is that something becomes a critical issue in your personal life that only you can take care of and you need even MORE time away than you’ve already taken, and you’re not using your PTO to take care of yourself, making it more likely that you will start to have physical/emotional health issues due to stress.

  160. Smiling Everyday*

    As part of my job I train all new folks in the admin and accounting departments. I have had some who either “get it” right way, or put in a great amount of effort to make sure they understand what’s required of them and do their job correctly.

    I’ve also had plenty of others who, once given a bit of autonomy, seem to go off on weird tangents. I have one such accounting trainee now. He’s been undergoing training for about 8 weeks. He’s been given instructions (many of them written) on how to do the tasks he needs to do. Each week I back off a bit more with the understanding that my door is always open for questions.

    The work output I got this week was flawed to a point where it got annoying, but I didn’t show my annoyance. Steps were skipped, work wasn’t checked, numbers were wrong. Since my work is dependent on his, it delays me until his numbers get corrected. I tried to back track with him to find out where there might have been holes in the training or a misunderstanding of the process. Trying to get input from this guy was like pulling teeth. He claimed he understood the process but had no feedback as to why the mistakes happened.

    I’d love to just chalk this up to pure sloppiness, but I don’t like making assumptions.

    How do others handle it when they hit this “training wall”?

    1. Marisol*

      I don’t have much experience training others, but in my job as an executive assistant I work handle a lot of discrete bits of data and do a little bit of accounting, most of which I have NO natural aptitude whatsoever. I can’t imagine any of my bosses would be very patient if I consistently turned in sloppy work. It’s my responsibility to have the self-awareness to implement strategies to succeed at my job, and to understand why I make mistakes when it happens. So my first inclination is to think you are being too soft on this guy.

      On the other hand, I already *know* how to do my job, which is not the same as someone who is learning the ropes. So, maybe I have no useful insight whatsoever…

      Still, if you have had a lot of experience training people, and your instincts are telling you that he was just being sloppy, I’d pay attention to that. And I think I might try to turn over as much responsibility for learning back onto him. You can train him, but you can’t fire his brain synapses for him. He’s got to step up. So maybe could you say, “George, you’ve been here 8 weeks and by this point your work needs to be more accurate. I’d like you to spend some time thinking about what strategies and/or information you need for you to be more accurate going forward, come up with a list, and let’s meet next week,” and maybe that will just…scare him straight. It sounds terrible but if he’s being sloppy, he’s not taking this job seriously. Or is there some other deliverable that HE could do, that would facilitate his training? I don’t know, maybe something like, give you a bullet-point summary of the workflow on paper, that you could check to see if he’s missed a step? Do you have a training manual and/or any tests he can take? Something in other words that would put more responsibility on him and less on you. Make his brain do the work. If he can’t do that then he just can’t do the job.

      And additionally, what do you have in mind when you say “sloppy”? Do you mean, he rushed, he failed to check his work, he was distracted by Facebook, what? Maybe getting more granular will help both of you get more clarity.

      Dunno, just some ideas.

    2. Jules the First*

      When something like this happens, I like to observe them as they do the next version of the task – ask them to walk you through what they do and why (the why is important, so they know why they can’t skip this step). I’m guessing he thought he could streamline your process and ended up skipping some steps that were vital but didn’t look vital to his newly independent eyes.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I used to make people develop a plan so each mistake did not occur again. While it is a pain in the butt to do this, I got my point across.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        whoops wanted to add:
        Have him review his work before handing it to you. Ask him when he hands it to you if he has double checked it.
        Also ask for his report earlier so you do not get stuck, if possible.

  161. Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler*

    Here’s my vent for the week.

    I have recently been tentatively hired by a local entity under a federal program aimed at low-income senior citizens (over age 55). It was not a perfect match job-wise and the pay is especially disappointing, but I’ve had a very low income the past year (unemployment has run out) and I am over age 55. The work will be interesting and I’m cautiously optimistic that there might be a good chance that it could develop into something better down the road.

    I filled out the W-2 form, I-9 form and several eligibility forms, along with providing proof of income almost 2 weeks ago. There was an eligibility form that they wanted more information on from the workplace and they neglected to tell me to bring a voided check for direct deposit. (They won’t issue an actual paycheck, you’re either paid by direct deposit or else you receive a cash balance card similar to a gift card.) The incomplete form and the voided check were supposed to have been picked up on Wednesday of last week, but the program representative didn’t get around to it until Friday of last week. She presumably faxed the information to the national program headquarters. And I’ve been waiting ever since. I called to check on things on Tuesday and received a call back on Wednesday that they’d let me know as soon as I was approved, but that it might take another 2 to 3 weeks.

    So disappointing. I really want to get back to work. Meanwhile, I’m still looking for something better, just-in-case something good turns up.

  162. NicoleK*

    Started new job two weeks ago. So far so good. I like the company, my boss, and my coworker. I have alot of experience in this area and the job matches my skills and experience. Negatives: training is subpar (ie no training manual), no official training schedule, half the systems I need haven’t been set up, Boss isn’t sure what systems I need to do my job, coworker isn’t a good trainer, and coworker is very tech challenged and it appears that I am now her ‘go to’ person for tech issues.

  163. Sophie*

    Any tips for resigning if you’re a manager / you have direct reports? Who should know first? Your manager or your directs?

    1. Jules the First*

      Always your manager. Direct reports should only find out once you and your manager have come up with plans for the transition. Your manager will probably also want to input into when/how you tell your direct reports.

    2. Bluebell*

      Your manager. But you can ask if you can tell your direct reports before the news goes out to a larger group.

  164. CC*

    Very very late to the party, alas, but I can’t be online at current workplace which I’m trying to escape.

    I’m seeking resources, can anybody help out with links? For context, I’m an engineer who has been comfortable doing tech side work and kind of avoided anything that hinted of project management. Various reasons including lacking supervision and mentoring during my only “project management” assignment while a recent graduate then being pigeonholed as “not good at that stuff” and never fighting against that perception because I enjoy the tech side stuff a lot.

    After Alison’s article “how to tell if you’re managing your career or not” I realized I’m not – in my late 30s and finally starting to realize things that were instructions for early 20s folks to start doing. Then I ran across a TED talk by Susan Colantuono titled “The career advice you probably didn’t get”. (Spoiler: I didn’t get that advice either. And it’s not “network!” or “work harder!” because everybody already gets that advice.) Then I saw a recent LinkedIn article by Mel Wilson titled “10 things I’ve learned from working in the sustainability field for 25 years”. (Some of the items are things I’ve noticed myself and apply outside of sustainability. Sustainability is one of my professional interests.) Then there was the EdX course on introduction to project management that I did, and discovered that the scary of project management looks, at the introductory level, a lot like the systematic way I plan to do things anyway. Plus convincing people to go along with you.

    What links I have so far to follow.

    So what I’m specifically asking for in terms of pointers, is material that I can work with to learn and get competent (preferably reasonably good) at the business side stuff. I’m not confident in my ability to tell which of the multitudes of articles or authors are good and which are nonsense unless it’s something I’ve had direct experience with – which is a pretty small portion of the business topics out there. Also I’ve been reading AAM for several years now and as solid as Alison’s advice is, I’d like to expand to include other voices as well.

    I no longer want to be a lowly peon engineer, the kind who is first on the layoff list, then who can’t get hired because *how* many years and no project management? – but also doesn’t really want to be entirely on the ladder striving for an executive position because I still want to have time with my lovely engineering drawings and spreadsheets. Yeah, that comment about 10 years of experience, or 1 year of experience 10 times? made me flinch. My years ratio isn’t that bad, but not nearly as good as it should be.

    I hope there’s still anyone reading. I may have to re-post this if a Friday open thread shows up before I go to work some week.

    2. Susan1*

      This may not directly answer your question but why not take a project management postgraduate course at a local university?

      1. CC*

        That is an option for once I have an engineering job again and am no longer living paycheck to paycheck at the non-engineering workplace I am trying to escape.

    3. Jean*

      Building on the “local university” suggestion from Susan1, look for an engineering or engineering/business library at your local institution of higher education. Most institutions offer some sort of service to the general public. You may not be able to check out books or sign in onto their computer network, but you should be able to get some referrals in your area(s) of interest from a reference librarian. Their job is to know the resources and direct people to them. One caveat: go during normal business hours (or call ahead to be sure that the reference desk will be staffed by a professional librarian in the evening or on the weekend). Once you have some web sites, journal titles, and books and author’s names, you can pursue them at your leisure. Although you may not be able to check out books yourself, your local public library may be able to obtain some titles via interlibrary loan. There’s also used bookstores, in real life and online (Amazon).

      Also, figure out which professional organizations serve the people who do the kind of work you want to do–and go to their websites (more resources!) and meetings (in-person networking). Note: Some professional associations also have specialized interest groups focused on exploring specific professional issues or supporting women, LGBTQ people or people of color.

      Good luck. Your search sounds really interesting–and I say this as a total humanities person, with nascent interest but very little skill or aptitude in anything STEM.

      Final disclaimer: I’m clearly neither an engineer nor a seasoned business person. Any engineers or business people reading this, please offer corrections if needed!

      1. CC*

        I do have the ability to access material from the university library (alumni library card!) How good are reference librarians at separating business sources that are sensible, actionable, and reality-based, from short sighted, toxic, and/or facile? It’s like all the resume advice out there – some of it is utterly terrible. There are so many articles that I started to read and that, frankly, reinforce all the worst stereotypes of MBAs. Who are trained by universities. (LinkedIn is bad for that, which is why I was so surprised to see the one article about lessons from sustainability. It seems sensible and actionable to me.) One of the reasons I’m not confident about my ability to separate good articles from bad is that I find that what I know of business and its focus on the quarter, maybe two quarters but not much longer view, and profits above all to be vile… but there is probably still some good advice in there, I just turn away in disgust before I can separate them.

        There is a professional organization; being a member is mandatory for engineers. We are a regulated profession. I’ve been to their networking events a couple of times in the past, and once I have an engineering job again I plan to resume that. But right now, my non-engineering job that I’m trying to escape is evenings, all networking events both directly with the professional association and organized by other related groups that I’ve seen are evenings, and I can’t afford to take an entire day off work (the events are right in the middle of my shift) plus for some dinner events blow an entire week’s food budget, on a couple of hours in which I probably won’t even meet an engineer in my sub-field. (This last assessment is based on the specialties of the people I talked to at the networking events I attended in the past, not just pessimism.)

        So, I should have put this in my original question – I specifically need resources that are free and not time of day dependent. (Hence the request for articles, and the EdX project management course. EdX is free.)

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have you checked out the Career Tools podcast, by the same people who do Manager Tools? It’s good, and it might have stuff you’d find really interesting.

      1. CC*

        I have never heard of either of those before. I will go check them out – thanks!

        (And a quick scroll through the list of podcasts shows that they go back to 2005 and the oldest entry is “Solution to a Stalled Technical Career”. Which… sounds appropriate.)

      2. CC*

        Ok, I listened to the “stalled technical career” podcast since it seemed appropriate to my situation. Any chance of a reality check for me? It opened by hitting a pet peeve then hit more through the course of the podcast, and I’m having trouble figuring out which of the things they advise that I’m gut level objecting to are actually bad advice, and which are things where I need to reset my thinking. (This is one of the things I’m talking about when I say I’m not confident in separating good advice from bad on this subject.)

        The first pet peeve it hit is that “technical” always means IT or programming. This also reminded me that Americans tend to use “engineer” synonymously with “computer programmer”. I am not a programmer, I am a chemical engineer, and in Canada where I live and work, “Engineer” is a protected title. I don’t consider most coders to be engineers, not unless they’re bound by the engineering code of ethics, which came about because engineers design things where if they do it wrong people die. I realize the US is different in its usage of the term. I realize that coders have a lot of skills, but the consequences of them making mistakes are generally less deadly. So anyhow, I tried to mentally substitute “specialist technical knowledge such as chemistry and fluid flow and pumps and instruments” wherever they said “IT” or “code” while rolling my eyes at the whole “tech = computers” thing.

        The second peeve is that when they got to the main part of their advice (which was basically: networking) they quite rightly said that relationships are stronger when you communicate more about subjects of interest… but then said, your [code] is not interesting, the other person’s baseball team is what you have to talk about to get a good relationship with the colleague, and I didn’t notice a mention of talking about your own non-work stuff that the other person might show some interest in. Having done plenty of tech writing, I am well aware that you reach people by speaking their language, and for a document I am entirely fine with putting in the effort with no expectation of anything in return beyond the document gets used, but a relationship is reciprocal. Why on earth would I want a one-sided relationship with somebody where I am pretending to be interested in things they like while they are ignoring things that I like? (There is a chance this was mentioned; I have a lot of trouble focussing on podcasts and audiobooks and much prefer either written information or in-person interaction. But I heard a whole lot of “you do this for others and people will think you’re smart and your career can get moving again” and no “you do this for others and other people will also do this for you.” While calling it relationship building.)

        Then there’s the advice to record as memory aid details about the other person’s family and activities so you can ask about them later, because people think that shows you care. If somebody asks a lot of questions about my family or hobbies, or worse, brings it up much later, I find it somewhere between intrusive and creepy. The perils of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” when two people want opposite things. I find that sort of thing creepy, so I don’t do it to others. Apparently others find that cold and unfriendly.

  165. Susan1*

    I work in a unionized environment. I was previously in a contract role, replacing someone for 1 year, at my company, doing something I had considered my dream job. I had been working towards that goal for several years and had other experience and education related. When a permanent job opened up, same pay, I had to apply as my dept. was not hiring. Fast forward to now, several months after I started the new job, and my old office got the funding for a permanent job which was my job. I’m feeling torn.

    This new position has given me more exposure to different people in the company and you could say touches more areas of the company. The other position is more comfortable and I generally enjoy coming to work when in that role. This new position is more open-ended and also at times highly stressful due to urgent customer needs. I thought that maybe I just don’t know enough about my new role and so I am trying to make lemonade from lemons and hopefully I’ll start to settle in. I’ve applied for professional development funding for an upcoming conference which the dept would be paying for.

    Also in the new job, co-workers are somewhat more difficult to work with and the management structure is a bit wonky. The new role has never existed before so it could take a year or more for things to settle down and for our priorities to be established, as right now I feel responsible for so many moving parts.

    In terms of career advancement, old job was maybe a bit more limiting. I could rise up in that department or perhaps outside of it; it’s possible. New job seems more open and I’m building a new skill set. Overall I don’t know if I should aim for a steady and happy 60k or if I should push forwards and try to strive towards 100k+. I could see myself staying in old job for 5+ years at the same pay. New job – I would leave in 1-3 years for something with higher pay.

    I applied for old job, just in case. Is it worth the risk of turning down the old job, if I get an interview, in favour of this new risky, uncomfortable job?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You know you the best.

      I have a history of just knowing on the inside when I can take on something and expect to have success with it. Everything just clicks together and I think, “I can do this. Yes, it will be hard. Yes there will be bad days, but I can do it.”

      If I start a job with “uh. I think I might have a problem here”, it does not usually go well.

      Maybe you are some where in between these two internal voices. If you are in the middle here, I would take a look at the question of “what would I do if risky job tanks on me?” I am pretty conservative, I don’t take large risks. If I cannot come up with plan B for a given risk then I probably will decide against it.
      It sounds like risky job has some BS with it. Again, this is a personal choice, we all have varying levels of BS that we can tolerate. Looking back on previous jobs have you lasted for any length of time with similar types of stuff going on?

      1. Susan1*

        Thanks so much for your reply.

        It’s so hard to know. I think that there is possible potential for this job to become something great for my career. It’s also possible for this job to continue being taxing and for my old job to slip through my fingers and for me to regret turning it down in future.

        I like your idea of what to do if risky job tanks. I think I’d look for a permanent job similar to my old one, which are posted rarely. Permanency in my experience is hard to get in my field.

        This is the most open-ended job I’ve ever been in, and I don’t like some of the duties that I’m being asked to do. It’s new territory for me. The co-workers being difficult to work with – really it’s one or two co-workers that are most tricky.

        I guess my question is how do people rise up into management? Is it normal for people to stick to what they do best and move up from there, or is it more likely that people who are flexible in the company that move up?

        I think I’m leaning towards staying in my current position because I don’t want to stab anyone in the back and this new dept. has spent significant time training me and I’d like to maintain a good reputation in the company. But I have a nagging feeling that I may regret it.

  166. Mander*

    Late to the party but here goes.

    I’m wondering how people would go about listing skills that they learned as part of a graduate degree on your resume. I’m applying for a job that would use a specific skill that I only know because I used a similar tool extensively while doing my PhD research (namely keeping a huge bibliographic database up-to-date and making sure all the information and metadata in the things I cited was correct). But I’m not sure how to present this. I have experimented with listing my two research degrees under the heading “Postgraduate Research” and then breaking down my accomplishments as if they were jobs, but I don’t know how this comes across. Does this seem like a crazy way to do it?

    Here’s what I have, so you know what I mean:

    Postgraduate Research
    PhD University 2004 – 2012
    MA University 2001 – 2004
    – Designed and managed two postgraduate research projects
    – Used a database to organize and perform statistical analysis of research data
    – Maintained a large (5,000+ entries) bibliographic database, using metadata and a file naming convention to organise digital materials
    – Organised physical and digital research materials including photographs and published academic works

    Looking at this it seems really stupid but I’m drawing a blank on how to present this.

    1. J*

      I don’t think it looks stupid at all. You are describing a role and your accomplishments in that role. That it was a graduate program doesn’t change that you have specific experience with something similar.

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