open thread – December 16-17, 2016

by Alison Green on December 16, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Anon Interview*

    I’m usually pretty good at judging how to follow up with my own interviews but the holidays have messed up my normal timeline.

    I had an interview for an administrative job at a college on Nov 17, exactly a week before Thanksgiving (I’m in the USA). They said they had more interviews to do up until Thanksgiving, that they were hoping to make a decision by the end of the following week, so by Dec 2, and that they wanted to get the new person in right at the start of the year. I did the usual thank you email after my interview which they responded back to, again reiterating that they’d be in touch after Thanksgiving.

    So we’re now two weeks past the expected response date. This would normally be about the time I’d think of sending a follow up to find out the status of everything. But given that it was Thanksgiving between my interview and now, I can understand that messing up the timeline, with days off for vacations and holidays. With all that, should I still send a query email or should I chalk it up to holiday slowness and not give it further thought until after New Year’s, since now we’re closing in on Christmas?

    2. Murphy*

      I think it would be reasonable to send a follow-up sometime before Christmas, given how long it’s been, and that otherwise you’d have to wait until the new year. It probably IS holiday slowness, but I can understand wanting to follow up.

    3. Collie*

      Definitely the latter. If you still haven’t heard by the week after New Year, I’d say maybe follow up then, but otherwise either pretend you didn’t get it and keep applying (if you’re actually job searching as opposed to this-looked-good-and-why-not-apply) or go with your second assumption. Good luck!

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed, and that delay is TOTALLY normal. Any number of things could have happened, and I’m sure the department is short-staffed since a lot of people take off big chunks of time in December.

      That said, it’s a good idea to send a quick follow-up email asking about the status. Just don’t be alarmed if you don’t get a response right away.

    5. CC*

      I work at a university and we aren’t allowed to send out the official rejection letters until the selected person’s first day in case we have to go back to the pool. Sorry to be a downer….it could just be my university

      1. Artemesia*

        I worked in a setting that operated like that too. They may be slow; it always takes longer than it takes, but they may also be negotiating with their choice. I can’t see how contacting them improves your odds, so I’d probably write it off. But nothing horrible about following up once now for closure — it is well after the time they indicated and maybe they will let you know something one way or the other.

      2. Michelle*

        Quick funny/weird story: When I got my current job, I had to write the rejection letters for the other candidates. I made it as polite as possible and had my executive director approve it. Instead of a form-type letter, I personalized each one with the person’s name & address. 30 (or so) people had applied so I spent about an hour personalizing the letters, printing them and printing envelopes. I quickly came to love Avery clear address labels- type all the address in , hit print, slap on them envelopes.

    6. Jessesgirl72*

      Since it’s (almost) two weeks past the time when they told you to expect to hear from them, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to follow up.

      But it also wouldn’t be surprised to hear the process was just slowed down by the holidays.

    8. Lia*

      I work in higher ed, and yep, I would bet a large sum that it’s just that a lot of people are out of the office now. I’d send a query email anyways. I’ve been on several search committees that were during the end of the year and delays are the rule, not the exception/

      1. SJ*

        Definitely – I’m also in higher ed and there was a delay of several weeks during my hiring because it was the middle of the summer and vacations for the involved people abounded.

    9. BRR*

      I think you’re fine sending a follow up if you want but in general I’ve moved towards the opinion that follows up almost never do much (the main exception I can think of is if you have a pending offer). But you’re not going to trigger a response of “oh yeah we forgot to extend you your offer.” I personally would just assume you didn’t get the job and move on mentally.

      This timeframe does not seem out of the ordinary at all. Then add in that it’s in higher ed (double if it’s a public institution), and between Thanksgiving and the end of the year.

      1. Anon Interview*

        My follow up wouldn’t be to suddenly trigger a job offer; I just want to know if there was a true delay in the process or if they picked someone else. I have more faith in a larger university to be honest with not hiring me than other places that dropped off the face of the Earth after my interview which is why I’m hoping its a delay.

      2. Ayshe*

        I feel like she is not necessarily reaching out to expect an offer but as Alison always says, shes “asking if they have an updated timeline”

    10. JHS*

      I recently got a new job. I had two interviews in August and they said they would let me know “after Labor Day.” Radio silence. I got a call about references the first week in October and got an offer the first week of November!

  2. Tableau Wizard*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for how to organize a job search? I’m someone who likes lists and keeping things organized, and I want to do the same with my job search. I don’t want to forget to come back and actually submit an application for a job I just happened upon, and I don’t want to accidentally double submit myself. I’m sure I could just whip up a quick spreadsheet, but I was curious if anyone else had suggestions for methods that have worked well.

    1. Audiophile*

      I found it really useful, I think someone here suggested it, to make a spreadsheet in Excel. In my case, I just listed jobs I applied to. I included a title, link to the website of the org, if there was an interaction with the company, etc.
      I stopped when I surpassed 200 applications. I found it really good motivator though.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Yes! I used an Excel sheet, and it was marvelous. It also helped me keep track of the job descriptions, since they don’t always keep the job posting up.

        1. T3k*

          If you don’t mind me asking, how do you put in the job description? I’m trying to wrap my mind around posting a huge amount of text in excel without it looking unwieldy.

          1. the gold digger*

            I make a pdf of each job posting and save it along with a copy of my cover letter. I don’t have a spreadsheet, but I will have a list of files in my “job search” folder that start with the company name and then have other information.

            For instance,

            ABC company marketing manager job description.pdf
            ABC company marketing manager cover letter Dec 12 2016.doc

            Teapots United marketing manager job description.pdf
            Teapots United marketing manager cover letter Dec 3 2016.doc

            1. Audiophile*

              I usually kept a pdf of the job post as well. I have the cover letters and resumes in my email account.

            2. AnonAnalyst*

              I did this during my last job search as well. I also kept the resume I sent to each job so I could review it before going in to interview. But I highly recommend keeping a copy of the job description because it might be taken down. I like to review the job description when preparing for the interview, and I tried to go back to one after I was contacted for an interview and found that the company had removed it from their site. Lesson learned!

              1. ArchiveUser*

                The internet archive (very old page) and google cache (recently removed) are wonderful in this sort of situation.

          2. Future Analyst*

            I just kept each JD in one cell, and referenced it on the main page by linking to that cell. Unwieldy, yes; but I didn’t need to reference the JD unless I was asked to interview, so out of 30+, I only needed to re-look at 4-5. I do like the below (above?) idea of using PDFs, but I personally like having everything in one place, and since the JD doesn’t need to look “pretty” for any sort of presentation purposes, it didn’t bother me too much.

          3. Blue_eyes*

            I did pretty much what Future Analyst and Audiophile did, but I used a table in google docs. The spacing is better for writing more text and I didn’t need to use any excel functions or anything. I tracked the name of the org, position title, and any contacts I had with them like “Submitted application 9/15/16, phone interview 10/5/16”. I book marked the job postings to a bookmarks folder (it’s also a good idea to copy the job posting to a document and save it to your computer since sometimes the posting is taken down by the time interviews are happening and it’s nice to review the posting before an interview).

            1. Blue_eyes*

              In addition to the google doc table I also kept a folder on my computer with all of my resume versions and cover letters for each application (with the org and job title in the document name). I sorted the application materials into a few folders bategory of job/organization.

              Every time I submitted an application by email I bcc’ed myself and then filed that email and any responses from them to a job search email folder.

      2. Engineer Woman*

        Like Audiophile, I created and added to an Excel file which summarized the search: date, company, job title, first follow-up (screening call, interview), second follow-up action and last action (if any).

        Somewhat like the gold digger, I also have individual word files for each application, including both job description and my cover letter, and any other info, such as screen shots of relevant info from company website. I sometimes had to create temporary cover letters to actually send since I obviously couldn’t send this compilation but I have each application in 1 file rather than separate ones. However, it works out when they want you to type in your cover letter in their web-based system since I just copy-paste then and have a copy of what I had submitted.

    2. Murphy*

      The last time I had to do this, I kept a Word document with everything that I applied to, the job description, where I found the listing, what date I applied, and what information I gave them (i.e. some asked for references, etc.) so I knew what I applied to and when.

    3. Belle*

      I just Google Drive to keep a spreadsheet going with the status of each job I applied to. I like using Google Drive though because it is accessible from my phone or desktop.

    4. anonny*

      I kept a word doc of all the postings that looked interesting to me (I’d print them out while working on cover letters, etc), and an excel spreadsheet for all the jobs I’d applied to and their status/dates.

    5. Awkward Interviewee*

      I’ve used spreadsheets. Columns for pertinent info such as title, organization, closing date, date I applied, etc. I also used color coding for various things, such as the job title cells for jobs I really wanted to apply to I made one color, and jobs I was lukewarm about but put on the spreadsheet so I could think about it further I made a different color.

    6. Hermione*

      I made a folder for my job search in my dropbox and gave each job applied to a subfolder labelled with the company and position and date the position closed (if given, otherwise the date I submitted my application). Then in the subfolder I would put a copy of the submitted cover letter and resume (which were personalized) and screenshots of the application and any confirmation screens.

    7. Job Seeker*

      I have been using Evernote – one folder to clip job ads into and another folder that I move the ad to after I’ve applied. I find it helps when I get calls for interviews, too.

      You could probably use your web notepad of choice, but I like that Evernote will clip straight from the webpage (most of the time).

      1. Sheepla*

        +1 for all things Evernote.

        AAM, I’d love to see a “how do you use Evernote” thread some day if there are other Evernote lovers like me on this site.

    8. Venus Supreme*

      I used a physical binder and tabbed off every section with each job I applied to. I printed out the original job post, my cover letter to the company, and any significant correspondence. I also kept track of dates/time stamps as available. It was a little bulky but I preferred the physical organization versus getting lost in my mail.

    9. Cruciatus*

      This isn’t a list, but as I’m searching, if there’s something I’m interested in I print it out. That way if I can’t apply right then I have all the information for later. Eventually I write the date I applied and when (if) I heard back and when my interview. I actually keep them if I’m hired so I have a list of job duties, starting date, etc. When I apply for other things later it can come in handy. I could probably do this in Excel/Word as well but I do better actually seeing/touching papers. Then I just keep them all in a folder for about a year so I can see what I’ve applied to.

    10. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Yes spreadsheets.
      I would do one tab per company and note all pertinent details such as date of application, materials sent, and make a note of each contact by them, dates of all interviews and people met along with their contact info. Color the tabs based on the status. Blue of application submitted, red for any rejections (to avoid reapplying for the same position multiple times if it is re-posted to get a better pool of candidates), green for ongoing interviews or discussions, etc… I also saved all of my materials to a “job search” folder and then linked the appropriate documents into the spreadsheet for reference in case of a phone interview question referencing something I said in my cover letter.
      As an accountant I believe I cannot survive life without a spreadsheet.

    11. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I did a spreadsheet as well. Mine included: name of the company, job title, location, contact, where/how I applied (LinkedIn, Monster, Company Website, Recruiter, etc), any salary information, link to the original post, and the job description itself in case the original post is deleted. If I am using multiple resumes, I indicate which one I sent as well.

    12. Mints*

      I do it in Gmail, which seems unusual reading through replies. I’d have a label “2016 job hunt” of jobs applied to, where I’d put the automated “Thanks for applying” and I’d also print to PDF the job description (or copy and paste into an email if the formatting was weird). I’d usually forward the automated email to myself with the job description so that they’d thread together.

      I also had a sublabel for “interviewing” where I’d move all the relevant emails for something I got a call back for.

      Oh and boomerang to remind myself a week or whatever when I planned to follow up.

    13. BRR*

      In addition to a spreadsheet I keep folders with my materials for each job and a copy of the job description.

    14. super anon*

      Seconding the excel spread sheet. I also save a copy of the JD and the resume & cover letter I submitted for the position.

    15. SS*

      I had a master excel spreadsheet that listed the company, position, link to the posting, application date, any follow up dates (I.e. interviewed on 11/2, followed up on 11/10), and personal thoughts (I.e. company is really small, interviewer seemed bitchy, etc). I also kept a folder for each application that had a copy of the cover letter and resume I sent them (since this varies by position and should an interview come up it was helpful to see exactly what I sent them), and a pdf of the actual posting (as these sometimes get taken down). I have these backed up after each job search, so if I start looking again a couple years down the road I can refer back.

    16. Mike C.*

      I made a folder for the skeleton materials (general resume, cover letter, etc) then a folder for every job I applied to. Sometimes if it were multiple jobs from the same company I would have a company folder with the job folders inside. Inside those folders I would have the customized materials. Those folder names could also have requisition numbers in them or at least dates to ensure you aren’t double submitting.

      Also, for the job search itself I would create a folder of bookmarks for each job search engine (multiple for different types of searches on the same site), company site and so on. Then when I got home from work I would right-click that folder and open them all as separate tabs. That way I could quickly see if new jobs had been posted or if the same job was appearing in multiple places. Either way I could look through a bunch of different places in just a few minutes.

      Best of luck!

    17. Zahra*

      Spreadsheet all the way.

      For some inspiration, here are the columns I used:
      Current status (Applied, did not get job, follow up by X, next interview on X) -> used to easily find where in the process I am, instead of looking at the other columns
      Position title
      Organization
      Found where (LinkedIn, Indeed, etc.)
      Found when?
      Last day to apply
      Day I applied
      Interview #1 date
      Interview #2 date
      Decision (With the date of the decision)
      When to follow-up
      Points to discuss at next contact
      Notes

    18. One Handed Typist*

      I had an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of each job that caught my attention. The main sheet was a Summary of each job with basic identifying information (Company, Job Title, Posting Date, Source of Posting, Posting ID#, Action Taken, Reason). Each job had a more detailed sheet linked with expanded job descriptions and any other notes. I made sure to note Action Taken and Reason in case I encountered the job as a reposting or with slightly different information on different sources. For instance, if someone in my network mentioned the company was a client or vendor and was late on payments or what not, I’d want to factor in potential solvency into the consideration for posting. Or if I decided not to pursue because the physical location of the job would result in a huge commute, I’d include that. When applying for a variety of jobs, that was the easiest way to keep it organized.

      For some jobs the postings were PDFs, so I’d link them in the spreadsheet as well.

    19. voluptuousfire*

      I used to keep an Excel sheet, but found I didn’t keep it up as I would like. I kept track of jobs I applied for by keeping two folders in my email inbox–one for automatic replies and one for job descriptions. I’d copy and paste the job description into an email with the company and job title in the subject.

      It made things a lot easier for me when I went on interviews because I had everything on my phone.

    20. CMT*

      Semi-related: I copy and paste and email myself the job descriptions of jobs I apply to and ones I am even just thinking about applying to. This has come in very handy for updating my resume, because I have the original job description wording for the jobs I’ve had.

    21. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      I use a Trello board! I have lists for Applied, Interview Scheduled, Interviewed, Offer Made, No Reply After One Month, Rejected, Declined By Me. Every time I apply for a job I create a new card under Applied with the job title and company as the title, dump the job listing details in there, and attach my cover letter. Then I just move cards around as I get responses (or not, as the case may be).

    22. Anxa*

      Don’t worry about it so much.

      I say this as someone who put off my job search for 2 weeks in a new city because, among other factors, I was too hung up on optimizing the perfect system.

      That said, I have two ideas:

      1. Don’t just dive in. If you’re in an area with very few opportunities, prioritize which jobs from a company you want to apply to first if they are major employers in the area.

      2. Save a copy of the job ad!

    23. AliceBD*

      I am currently job searching. My method may be too complex for someone else, but it works for me.

      The main things I use are Evernote and Google Docs (Excel would work as well). The job posting is saved to Evernote in case it comes down. I also make a note in the same Evernote note about things in the online application — for example, if it forced me to give salary expectations I note what I put down, or who I put for references, etc. A copy of the cover letter and resume I used for that position are also put in the note after I apply, so I know what I told them.

      In the spreadsheet in Google Docs, I list the status of the application (need to apply, applied, rejected, etc), the company, the title, the date applied, the date of the interview, the date of rejection, etc. All that info is in evernote as well but the spreadsheet makes it easy to see what needs to be done next.

    24. Elizabeth West*

      I do a spreadsheet too! I also use a color key:

      –Bright yellow means it’s active (i.e. I have an upcoming interview)
      –Light purple for no reply (which I do after a week or so)
      –Light orange for other (ex. if they called me and then never got back to me, etc.).
      –I also added brown for no (as in my application was rejected or my interview bombed).

      I have columns for the date of application, where I found the listing, name of company, address, city state zip, phone, website, interviewer, result (Yes or No), and notes. It’s very similar to how I organize my querying spreadsheet. I typically don’t stop until I get hired somewhere. That row I highlight bright red!

      I have a folder for Jobs 2016 (I had one for jobs in 2012 also). In it, I keep subfolders:

      –Resumes (different versions)
      –Interviews (a list of questions I tweak for each interview and print out and take notes on during it)
      –Applied (job descriptions to which I submitted an application; I ALWAYS save it as a PDF so I can refer to it later if I get an interview and they’ve pulled the job description)
      –Cover Letters (duh)
      –Unemployment (this is where my weekly requests for payment receipts go)
      –Portfolio (anything I think I could put in one. This is a new folder. Also, it’s practically empty. :\ )
      –Listings (any job listings I saved but didn’t do anything with for some reason. They get moved if I apply.)

      The rest of the folder is random stuff, including my spreadsheet and my copies of Alison’s How to Get a Job and How to Prepare for an Interview. :)

  3. Murphy*

    I’m not sure how worried I should be about something my boss said the other day.

    I gave him a heads up thatI’d been compiling a list of things that will need to be taken care of when I go on maternity leave in the spring, and I was thinking we could sit down and go through it after the holidays. He said OK and then said “Yeah, what ARE you going to be doing about that? Are you going to be sitting and approving things from home?” O.o

    I recovered fairly well and said “Well, maybe some of the time, but there IS going to be some time where I’m unavailable…” I’m not worried about getting my allotted FMLA leave, because they have to give it to me. (Although you do need your supervisor’s approval for intermittent leave, and I was hoping to do 2 weeks part time when I first come back. It will be a slow time of year for me anyway.) I just wonder if I’m going to be having a very uncomfortable conversation explaining that yes, I will need some time off, and no, I will absolutely NOT be working during that time.

    1. Sadsack*

      Congratulations! It sounds like you will have to explain that you will not be available to work at all while on maternity leave, based on what your home as said. I think it would be less stressful for you to get that out of the way now than to wait until you are close to giving birth or just had your baby.

    2. CM*

      FMLA leave is not part-time. You should explain to your boss that when you are on maternity leave, you are really on leave and will not be available until you return to work. Don’t try to soften it and say that there’s going to be “some time” when you’re unavailable. Approach it from the standpoint that he doesn’t understand how maternity leave works and you need to explain it to him, not that it’s a negotiation.

      Tell your boss about the concept of FMLA interference — your employer is not allowed to interfere with your FMLA leave, and if they try to make you work during it, this exposes the company to legal risk. For instance, see this website: http://www.fmlainsights.com/fmla-faq-does-an-employer-violate-the-fmla-when-an-employee-answers-e-mail-or-telephone-calls-while/

      If you’re concerned about emphasizing the “leave” aspect, you can combine this with a conversation about a transition plan when you do return to work.

      1. Murphy*

        I only said that in the moment because it wasn’t a formal conversation. I had just run into him in the kitchen while I was heating my lunch. I was previously unworried about discussing this with him, but now I’m wondering if I should be steeling myself for a tough conversation.

      2. Is it Friday Yet?*

        This. I took FMLA once after I had a surgery. I tried to do some work from home, and my employer absolutely would not allow it. A few emails or phone calls here and there is fine as this article explains (Hey Jane, we need to find X document for the Y presentation. Can you tell us where you put that?), but they cannot rely on you for work.

    3. anonny*

      My baby is due next month and my boss (who normally I love but has issues with boundaries) made a similar comment. I think it’s important to be firm in that fact that you will not be available. Otherwise you could end up with ‘just’ 5 emails a day and that time is really for you and baby.

      1. kms1025*

        My thoughts exactly when I read that comment!!! Only someone who has never had an eight pound or so human extracted from their body and then had to physically recover from said extraction as well as now taking care of this brand new person’s every need and whim would ever say such a thing :( Three rasberries for this boss Pfht Pfht Pfht!!!

      2. Murphy*

        Yeah! I wanted to be like, “Uh, NO! Are you insane?” Pretty sure I’m going to have other important stuff to do.

    5. Pearl*

      Congratulations!

      It sounds like he might not understand exactly what FMLA leave entails. If he hasn’t dealt with it before he might not know how it works. I would definitely bring it up. Maybe you could say something like, “And I’m reminding everyone that during FMLA I’m not working. Otherwise, it doesn’t count as FMLA time because XYZ.” (I don’t actually remember exactly how FMLA states it.)

    6. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Definitely put that on the list of things to go over. If you can think of one lay out a plan otherwise it is his job to make sure things get approved (as in he does it).

    7. Elle*

      Hopefully they will allow you to take intermittent leave afterwards, but they are not required to. Intermittent leave for pregnant women must be allowed, but companies can say that FMLA time after the birth must be taken in one block. That doesn’t mean that they can’t or won’t let you, I just wanted to bring it up so you are not caught off guard if they do know about this and insist on it. I don’t think too many people know about this, so hopefully they don’t either. Anyone feel free to correct me if this has changed.

      1. Murphy*

        You are correct. Like I said, I know I need his approval for that, but it’s been done by several women here recently, so I won’t be asking for anything unusual.

        2. Ama*

          You know, this might actually be part of his confusion, if the other women weren’t being managed directly by him so he was only seeing the part-time work and not the part where they took full time leave he may not be aware that those are two separate phases.

          1. Murphy*

            That could be. I’m hoping he was just having a brain fart moment, because he previously seemed so supportive.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe he meant who would be taking your spot while you were gone? In other words, the question was actually, “What will you do? You can’t expect to be approving things from home!” He could have said, “Have you given thought to, or told someone to do the approvals you usually do?” But instead he used a different set of words and it did not convey the message he had in mind.

      When you reopen the conversation assume he meant to ask you what your thoughts were on coverage for your work. I would use this assumption until I was proven wrong. Then I would go into the explanation about not working on family leave. I have used the milder assumption approach even in cases where I knew I was walking into a conversational minefield. I found it a good way to redirect the conversation toward remaining legal/ethical.

  4. Clemmy Clue*

    My job has really run me to my limit lately. Every evening and at the end of every week, I feel so drained, tired, put out, overwhelmed, etc. recently this has been so bad that I can’t even combat those feelings with time spent with my hobbies, friends/family, getting into the spirit of the winter season. Every spare moment not on chores and life essentials like feeding and sleeping go into my job searching. I have little left to give to other things in my life, which makes me even more unhappy and frustrated with work, knowing they’re dragging me down so much.

    Other than finally landing a new job and getting out of the current suck-fest I work in, how can I fight back from letting my job drain so much from me? I’m naturally a very positive person but I’ve truly hit my limit at work and can’t seem to protect myself from the work miserableness following home. Any tips would be much appreciated.

    1. Dawn*

      Hello fellow unhappy at work person!

      I’ve found that I have to really PRACTICE not thinking about work when I’m not at work- it takes time, like training a puppy. Be gentle but firm when you guide your mind away from work when you’re not at work; you don’t hit a puppy when you’re training it- you gently pick it up from wherever it’s wandered off to, put it back down where you want it, and say “stay!” Keep repeating until the puppy starts learning :)

      Another thing that helped me a lot is envisioning a Dyson Sphere surrounding work (google it), sometimes even envisioning multiple Dyson Spheres surrounding work- one around my office, one around the whole office inside of the building, one around the building, and one surrounding the parking lot around the building. When I left to go home I would visualize walking through the border of each Dyson Sphere and would mentally close it behind me- close it so tight that nothing could escape- and then reminding myself of how closed up it was if I was at home thinking about work.

      2. Marillenbaum*

        I do something similar, but not with Dyson spheres. My image is that I have a secretary in my head (her name is Josephine), and when it’s the end of a task or set of circumstances, I imagine Josephine rolling up that day’s papers, putting them in a little case, and sending it whizzing away via a series of pneumatic tubes, like the ones they use at the bank.

    2. not so super-visor*

      I guess that it depends on the work that you do. When work is really getting to me and sucking me into the pit of anxiety and depression, I try to remind myself that I am not defined by my life and that I am more than just my job. I will try to spend some time writing a list of things in my life that I am truly grateful for (work related or not).

    3. Venus Supreme*

      I’m so sorry! I was in your situation last winter and it truly does suck your soul out. I tried hard to list positive things that happened that day, such as taking in the scenery or hanging out with a pet. Music helped me SO much, too. I also read past AAM stories that would be applicable to my situation and wrote down phrases that really stuck out to me. I hope you get a new job soon! By any chance can you take a day off to decompress?

      1. TheCupcakeCounter*

        I second the music suggestion. It really can change moods. I have several playlists that I put on depending on what is going on. For when I am burned out and just need to be mentally soothed I have a classical playlist that really helps (and I pretend to conduct it which is a whole other issue entirely and drives hubby nuts…maybe why I do it???) and when I am pissed off I have hard rock/metal that I blast and a super fun sing-a-long playlist for when I need cheering up. Usually by the time I get home I have a song stuck in my head and can no longer focus on work.

    4. Gladiator*

      I struggle with this too! Some things that have helped are:
      gentle yoga/mindfulness/meditation classes
      decorating my cubicle (and re-decorating so it doesn’t become stagnant)
      hobbies that are really low-key and unlock the creative part of your brain (think adult coloring books)

      I’m also prone to seasonal depression from the lack of light which just makes these awful feelings worse. But acknowledging that it’s just a temporary thing helps sometimes.

      I’m sorry your job is a suckfest! I hope you find a new one soon!

    5. Emac*

      I’m in the same situation and it sucks. One thing that has helped me is changing my schedule, though I know that’s not possible for everyone. I’ve been working 7 am-3 pm, which really makes a difference to me. It’s dark when I leave in the morning, but usually light by the time I get to work and light when I leave in the afternoon. Plus, when I get home, I feel like I have more time for myself and out of work stuff.

    6. pathos*

      hey! Are you reading my thoughts???
      Me too. Still having melt-downs on a regular basis again, can’t get into a non-pathetic mood so I can job hunt, just burnt beyond hope. Haven’t had a break in 2 weeks (working Mon – Sun) and most of those days are 10+ hours plus an hour drive each way.
      Need to find a second job to make ends meet but have no time that I could actually work a second job.
      I’m just done.
      Hoping someone has some good suggestions.

    7. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I take natural supplements to help with stress and anxiety. These help me to turn my mind off. Tryptophan is one, but there are lots of them out there. Do you research, and definitely check with your doctor before taking anything, but this really helps me relax at night without any side effects that prescription medication often has.

    8. BRR*

      I’m in a similar situation and I recently download the headspace app for guided meditation. 10 min a day. It’s been helpful.

        1. BRR*

          Headspace. The first ten sessions are free and you can listen to them as often as you want. You have to pay for the others but it’s moved me from utterly miserable to slightly less utterly miserable.

    9. adminrat*

      Try incorporating exercise into your routine! I know it’s hard to do, especially when you’re already feeling so drained, but it has helped me through some especially challenging work situations that were affecting my home life and personal relationships. If possible, I suggest early morning before you have realized your emotional exhaustion, or mid day to wake yourself up and recharge you for the remainder of the day. I have been lucky enough to have gyms in my office spaces, so the lunch time workout has been possible for me. I worked in customer service for a year and it got so bad I turned into a crazed workout monster trying to sweat away all the garbage that was piled on me day after day. It was probably over the top, but hey! I got into shape, survived a year in CS, and maintained relationships with the people who mattered! Huzzah!

    10. TootsNYC*

      can you be active? I mean, really really active? Sweating and breathing hard active?

      A dance/exercise class right after work a couple of times a week might really h elp with that.

      2. pathos*

        I’ve debated this but can’t seem to work up the energy!
        I used to teach Tae Kwon do to 7-17 year olds twice a week after work but there aren’t any dojos of my association in this area. Can’t run a class myself (timewise) because I am only a 2degree black belt and haven’t studied for a few years (thanks to no class nearby & no time!)

        Still at my desk now after 7pm on a Fri. trying to finish up all the things I didn’t get done in the past 2 weeks despite having worked 100+ hours in that time period….

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Others have good suggestions, usually with problems of this size it’s a good idea to pick more than one thing to support ourselves.

      I had a deadline for bed time. At x time I was in bed, period. I liked this because I knew my day would end, so no matter how long and dragged out everything was, I knew it was finite. I could go to be by x time. Some days it was the only thing that went right.

      Another tool that kind of helped me was to remind myself that it takes strength to get through this stuff. I told myself that I would learn just how much “muscle” I had put on later. And I did, things that used to seem difficult I found I could walk right through them after having been in tighter spots.

      You’re making an investment in yourself and your life. I always think that investments are not without some pain. For example, to put money in our IRAs we have to stick to a budget and forgo some stuff. Likewise with buying a house, we can have this lovely house but give up the nice trips. It’s temporary, nothing lasts forever, even though it sure feels like it.

    12. Anono-me*

      In addition to previous posters suggestions about how to keep work and down time separate, I find it helpful to change clothes.

      Also, consider a check up please. Sometimes part of the problem can be medical. I would suggest asking about your iron, vitamin B and especially vitamin D levels.

  5. Fingers Crossed*

    Has anyone successfully negotiated a public librarian salary? The job I’m interviewing for is a bit on the low side and, in case I get an offer, I wanted to start putting together a case for it now. It’s relatively low for market value around here and I’m an internal candidate. Anything else I might use? I’ll go for PTO if they really won’t budge, but I did want to at least try. Advice/anecdotes appreciated!

    1. Penny*

      My friend is a librarian for our county (I’m guessing that’s what you mean by public?). She just assisted with some hiring and told me there’s not much room for salary negotiations. They were given a pretty strict budget for a new hire and told to stick with it. Still, no harm in asking, just wanted to provide that bit of info. Good luck!

      1. Fingers Crossed*

        Yeah, unfortunately that’s the case for most public/county librarian positions. They’re limited by what the local government will let them work with, but I have heard of the occasional success story. Hoping someone with such a story will have a tip or too. Thanks!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      My mom was a public librarian for many years, and she tried to negotiate a higher salary a few times. She was always turned down because they had a very strict budget and could only bump the salary for people with advanced degrees/years of experience. Even then, the higher salaries were only marginally better.

      It’s worth asking, but if I were you, I’d anticipate being told “no.”

    3. chilleh*

      Yeah, unfortunately it’s true there isn’t much wiggle room with salary. Something you probably already thought of but is worth mentioning: have you had a librarian position before? You may qualify for a higher classification (Librarian II) with a higher scale of pay. Sometimes librarians (i.e. me) forget about those divisions.

      1. Fingers Crossed*

        I was rejected for a Librarian II position last month at the same location, so I don’t think it’ll fly. I’m a Librarian there now (on a super-part-time basis — one day/week for half a day), but I don’t think that’s enough to make a case for Librarian II. But good suggestion!

      2. EmilyG*

        Definitely pay attention to this detail. In my experience these jobs have basically no leeway on what the salary is for a certain grade, but you may be able to negotiate for a slightly higher grade. That would do you a lot of good in the long run because getting those grade promotions may be the only way to ever get a raise other than a small COLA. It would help to understand the position grades of the place you’re applying and make sure that you can make an argument for what you’re asking for. But this may be a good case to go out on a limb because it’s so hard to get a raise otherwise.

        1. Fingers Crossed*

          Hmmm. Maybe approaching it from a grade-perspective without including the title is an option. I’ll have to give that more thought.

          1. Snarky Librarian*

            Can you check the pay grades for different titles online? In my county our salary and pay grades are public record, so if you visit the county website and click on HR you can see a published list like “Librarian I = pay grade 23” and so on. If you see a range like Librarian I, pay grades 20-23 I don’t think it would count against you to simply ask for the higher pay grade if you can justify it. Good luck!

            1. Fingers Crossed*

              I took a quick look earlier and found the grade scale but not with associated titles. I’ll have to look more deeply later. There is a salary range and it’s possible I’ll get offered the high end (but unlikely), so maybe I’ll just rely on that. Thanks!

              1. kt1*

                Check also in the job description. Ours is listed at the bottom of the job description. With our county there’s is a small potential of negotian allowed – HR and the hiring manager can go up to 5% (I think that’s the number) without having to go back to the elected officials (any pay grade changes for a particular job and anything above the already allowed negotiation percent has to be voted on during public meetings). And PTO is set in stone (well also has to be voted on in a public meeting), so there’s no wiggle room on that either. Sometimes you can find out in the employee handbook what, if any, the allowed negotiation amount is.

    4. Fingers Crossed*

      If I start negotiations acknowledging that they don’t have much wiggle room, am I sabotaging it from the start? “I realize salary is typically fixed for this position, but I’m hoping for something closer to X because market value and experience.” Yay, nay?

    5. Snarky Librarian*

      I work for a public library system and have always been told salary is non-negotiable. Regardless of when I first came in as an external candidate and through several internal promotions. The county HR department handles all of our hiring and negotiating with them is like talking to a brick wall. PTO is also non-negotiable, everyone gets the same. Sorry to be a downer! I also don’t think it hurts to ask, and who knows, the system you are interviewing with might be open to it.

      1. Fingers Crossed*

        No worries! I know pretty well how tough it’ll be if it’s possible at all. I can’t imagine they’d rescind the offer for trying, though. Worth a shot. :)

    6. just another librarian*

      I have successfully negotiated to start on a higher step of the classification, so I believe it was Step 3 of Librarian II so I would still be getting a raise. I very politely asked if that would be possible given that I knew the new job was a union position and sometimes there is less lee-way with that. Good luck!

    7. Joa*

      My answer is that you probably won’t be successful, but try anyway. Any decent library administrator is probably aware and unhappy that the wages are low and are likely to be on your side. However, they probably don’t have much wiggle room in their budget. They are likely limited by local government rules regarding starting salaries and pay grades. Depending on circumstances, they might be able to start you off at a higher step in that pay grade. If there is an end-of-probationary-period pay increase, they might be able to start you at that rate.

      I’m a library director for a county that underpays its staff terribly. I negotiated a high salary simply by saying, “I can’t work here for less than X,” but I was fortunate to be in a position where they wanted me but I did not *need* the job. I really would not have taken it for less than that amount and I know they ended up paying me $10k more than they intended. I’m constantly fighting for more pay for my staff, and (unfortunately) evidence that our pay rates make it difficult to fill positions is helpful.

      Actually, at the libraries where I’ve worked, you would have been more likely to be successful negotiating increased pay than PTO, which was so strictly defined by policy and seniority.

      1. Fingers Crossed*

        I wondered if PTO might be under similar circumstances. How frustrating! I knew all this getting into the field, but, y’know, passions and all.

        Anything else I might consider negotiating on? I know budgets for continuing education/professional development/conferences are similarly limited and there’re only so many local government perks they can give (discounted public pool access, etc.), so I’m at a loss as to what else I can ask for, but feel like I should, on principle.

        1. Joa*

          Moving expenses wouldn’t apply for an internal candidate, but I’ve seen that be successful before. You might also have success arguing for a more flexible or specific schedule or specific desirable work projects/committees/responsibilities. As an internal candidate, you have an advantage because you have a better sense of how your library system works and what those sorts of possibilities might be.

        2. Sparkly Librarian*

          A colleague with several small children negotiated that she could use her sick time during the 90-day probation (usually it accrued but was not usable), because she anticipated having to care for them if sick or taking them to doctor appointments. I negotiated unpaid leave for the vacation I’d had planned for a year that happened to be soon after my start date before I had accrued enough vacatioon. If I’d had more experience in libraries, I would have tried to see if they’d start me at Step 2 of the pay range for my classification; this was suggested by seasoned librarians in the same public system.

    8. Cari*

      Do you have any way of finding out what their budget is? In Ohio, all that data is on the State Library of Ohio website.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Board member here. Definitely try to find out about their budget. Look at where they get their income from and how stable that income is. (Hint: Almost all sources of revenues are considered unstable. They could get pulled at any time.)

        Honestly, if you push too hard you are going to look like you “just don’t get it”. Look over the monthly statements and the annual statements, if you can find them. Board members work hard at trying to keep the money flowing for what they now have. Just from where I sit, people who make out well are the folks who have ideas about how to stretch what is there.

  6. Sunflower*

    I’d really like to give my boss a card and let her know how much I appreciate her and with the holidays around the corner, I thought now is a great time. Only thing is I can’t find a card that seems to work. ‘Thank you’ cards seem kind of odd or the ones I’ve found are too personal and ring more for a friend rather than boss. A lot I’ve found are for ‘Boss’s Day’ which I obviously don’t want. I googled some and got some weird hits like ‘I appreciated you bossing me around?’

    Should I just send a generic holiday card with a message inside or maybe a blank card with a generic picture?

    1. Collie*

      No harm going with a blank card with a generic picture. If she cares to display it in her office, she won’t have to “worry” about any seasonal images, either.

    2. anonykins*

      TBH I glaze over any card in which the text is much too long. I’m much more interested in reading a personalized message, so I’d go generic + your thoughts.

    5. Berry*

      I think a holiday card with a heartfelt message inside works – it’s more about what you write than what the card companies have written.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Use a blank card. Whether it’s holiday-themed or not doesn’t really matter– it’s totally up to you.

    7. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Yeah go with a blank card. I like the ones with funny animal pictures as they usually make people smile.

    8. Artemesia*

      I’d use a notecard, the kind with a picture, print or photo on the front and that are blank inside and write a short note. Alternatively, there are holiday cards that are pretty neutral that have lots of space on the inside and since this is the season for cards, it can be quite graceful to just include a nice note as part of that. I know when I tip the doormen and the garagemen this time of year, I give the check in a holiday card with a note about how I appreciate their service and I think the note is a bigger hit than the expected check.

    9. Lillian Styx*

      My boss is nuts for Papyrus cards and they usually have blank ones with a classy, nonoffensive image on the front.

      They will always get my business because they are the only ones I could find who carried wedding cards specifically for same-sex couples (I went gender-neutral in the end, but still!)

    10. Central Perk Regular*

      I just did this. I sent a general card (had a pretty picture of flowers or something) that was blank inside. I had already sent a holiday-themed card, thanking her for a gift she had sent (we’re all remote), so this card was really about thanking her for leading us this year, for always being our advocate, and so on.

    11. Chaordic One*

      If you can’t find a blank Christmas card, in my local stores I see a lot of blank cards with pretty winter scenes of landscapes and wild animals. Something like that would work.

  7. New-ish Grad*

    How do I approach my boss about being transferred into another position? To set the scene: I graduated college with my bachelor’s this past May. About 4 months ago, I started my first post-grad, full-time job. I work at an event production company with less than 10 employees. I was hired to assist with the program/educational planning for our events. The goal is to promote me to have full oversight of the event’s programs within a few years. A few weeks ago, I had a performance review to mark the end of my probationary period. All went well, and my boss checked in to make sure I could see myself in this position long-term. I said I was enjoying it so far, but since then, I’ve come tor realize the answer is no, I don’t want to be in this job long term. The company is great and I love the events we put on, but I just don’t think the job duties themselves are a good fit for me (it has nothing to do with my degree, I find the 85% of the work incredibly mindless, etc.). To make matters more complicated, another job opening at this company was posted the same week I started and hasn’t been filled yet. This job is in communications, and is much more in line with my future career goals, my personal interests, and my degree. If this job had been posted when I applied to my current one, I would have applied for it over my position. I’ve decided I want to talk to my boss about this, because I genuinely do want to stay long term with this company, but I do not know how to approach her. She is a very good manager, so I’m not worried about anything crazy happening, but I still can’t help but feel that I’m letting people down. I feel incredibly guilty that they’re putting all this training into me in hopes that I’ll one day take a job I now don’t want. Does anyone have any scripts or other ideas that may help?

    1. thehighercommonsense*

      So, four months is really not a long time, and 85% of the work being incredibly mindless sounds like it might actually be about right for a position right out of school. And, having significant background in the nitty gritty of event production may perhaps help in the communications office in the future, because you’ll have a real sense of what folks on the ground need to do.

      I’d say you’d need to stick this position out for a while, at least a year. That will give you a better sense of the work, you’ll have had more time to prove yourself as an excellent employee, and you’ll be able to observe the communications portion and decide if it really is for you–you may find that despite your long term goals, you like what you’re doing now better, for example. Looking to move this early is going to take some explaining.

      I do think it’s reasonable to talk about your interest in doing work that’s closely related to your degree to your boss. Is it possible you could liaise with the communications person or take on related projects, while staying within your scope?

      Also, how common is it for folks to move around in the company, trying out different roles? If it turns out it’s really common, that would change your calculations.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Honestly, I think you’d be burning bridges if you expressed a desire to apply for the other job, but it depends on your relationship with your boss. Maybe frame the conversation in a way where you talk about what you’d like to be doing more of, maybe in your own role. Mention aspects of the open job that seem appealing.

      It’s your first job! Nobody expects people to stay forever at their first post-college job. I lasted four months at mine, then moved into a better industry where I can excel. :)

    3. CM*

      Your company has so few employees that you may be able to transition over to a new role without a lot of drama. In a larger company, going to a new group can mean basically never working with your old group again. But that’s unlikely to happen with 10 people. I think you could go to your boss and say, “I’ve been thinking about the conversation that we had at my performance review. While I’ve been enjoying my role here, I think I would prefer to be using my degree and developing skills in […]. I know the job opening in communications has not been filled yet, and that seems like a better fit for my skills and interests. What do you think about me taking on more communications work, and potentially transitioning over to that role?”

    4. anonny*

      4 months is a REALLY short period to try and get a new role at a company. If you were to ask about it, you’d likely come across as unprofessional. Think about it this way: they’ve spent 4 months training you, you’ve just ended probationary period, and they are finally about to see a ‘return on that investment,’ to use business speak. Especially with your first job, I think you need to give it a year.

      That doesn’t mean you can’t make a move towards the communications team eventually, -and that desire is worth sharing with your boss, but if still hold off on having that conversation for at least a few more months. Show that you can handle what’s in front of you before you are itching to move onto the next thing.

      Also, for what it’s worth, most first jobs are 85% mindless drudge work. I know it’s boring, but that’s just what putting your time in looks like at a lot of places. If this communications job is entry level, it honestly is probably similar.

    5. Christian Troy*

      I don’t think you should pursue the other job. You’re a recent grad and you’ve only been there four months. If you had been there a year, then I would say it doesn’t hurt to reach out, but in the context of what you’re describing, I don’t think it would reflect very positively on you to apply.

    6. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I echo thehighercommonsense in that what you describe is typical entry level job duties. Even at higher levels you will still have some of this so you might want to reset some expectations.
      Have a conversation with your boss but frame it as a followup to the earlier conversation. Such as “hey boss when you have some time I would like to continue our earlier conversation about my future at this company. I have no plans to leave as I really think this place is a good fit but I would like to discuss my long-term goals with you and see if we can lay out a plan for the future.” Bring up what you like about your current position and then move into your degree and where you see that taking you and what internal positions you think would be a match. At 4 months I wouldn’t ask about moving into that role (although you could say that reading the job description sparked an interest but understand that is too early to look into moving positions) because there is a lot you have yet to learn about professional culture and norms. Maybe you will get lucky and they will ask if you are interested in moving to that role now as opposed to the future (don’t hold your breath) because your role is easier to fill.

    7. NK*

      I’m going to disagree with the others and say you should bring it up, especially since you’ve told the boss you don’t want the job they want to train you to take in the next couple years. I’d just be very careful in the wording. Frame it as a follow-up to your prior conversation and mention that the communications role is the type of work you’d really like to get into. I’d tell them you want to uphold your commitment to this job, but wanted to know what you could do to be a candidate for that type of job in the future. That way it doesn’t look like you’re trying to jump ship and you realize you have some obligation to stick in that role for more than a couple months. But in the event they are open to it, that conversation should open the door to it.

    8. fairyfreak*

      I would talk to your boss about what skills/experience you would need to eventually get a job like the open position. That gives her the heads up that you are interested in that path without asking to get it after only 4 months in your current position. You could get some good career advice and guidance out of the conversation.

    9. BRR*

      As others said four months is not that long and I don’t think you should have the end goal of switching jobs. You’re likely around the point where they’re starting to get a return on their investment.

      The only approach I can come up with is if you truly have some capacity to take on additional responsibilities you could frame it as you noticed this job has been open for a long time and you can offer to help with some of it and mention you find it interesting in addition to it being for to help the fill the company’s needs. But you then have the possibility that you get more tasks related to your current position.

    10. H.C.*

      Normally I’d agree that 4 months is way too short to think about a job transfer but event production is an area with a really high turnover, especially for entry level roles. So this depends on your company’s culture and your rapport with your current boss, especially considering that it’s such a small company – meaning you’ll have regularly interact with this boss even after the transfer.

  8. Dawn*

    Happy Friday everyone, happy week before Christmas, and happy owners out of town for the next two weeks to me!

    I’ve realized that I really am not going to go anywhere in this job and am going to start looking as soon as the holidays are over. A big THANK YOU to everyone who’s ever posted in these open threads about how they never thought they’d ever find another job again and then *whoops* they land a great new job! Those stories will keep me afloat as I job search.

    It’s sad that my best job moment/accomplishment of 2016 was realizing that I really need to get a new job in 2017….

    1. HeyAnonny*

      Honestly, the realization that you need to get out is a HUGE first step. I realized that around this time last year and I cannot tell you how much my mental health has improved since leaving. I quit in February without anything else lined up because it was that or getting myself institutionalized. (No sarcasm. My mental health and my grip on reality/normalcy had gotten that bad) I was unemployed for four months and then found a job in my desired field with an amazing supportive manager. It’s not a dream job, but it’s a good balanced place for me right now. Best of luck in your search! You’ve already made huge strides.

      1. Ama*

        Yup. It’s really amazing how a job that’s overwhelming or a bad fit can make you feel trapped until that moment when you finally realize leaving is the only option.

        For me things started to improve as soon as I started looking (my former job wasn’t so bad that I couldn’t stick it out until I found a new one), because I had finally convinced myself that I wasn’t permanently stuck in the awfulness.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Or you get pushed out. :P
          But it is kind of nice to know you can break free, even if you know it’s going to take a little bit of time and you might have to get a dumbjob in the meantime.

    2. periwinkle*

      Having that moment of clarity is a celebratory accomplishment!

      No need to wait, take this holiday quiet time to update your resume and prep for the search.

      1. Dawn*

        That’s the plan! Resume updating next week because work is gonna be slow, then start looking beginning first thing in 2017!!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Deciding to leave is half the battle.
      I believe Alison says now is actually the best time to look because no one is paying that close attention.
      Whatever way you handle it, best of luck. I hope you find a new and happier place for the upcoming year!

  9. Muriel Heslop*

    My fifth period class, made up of 8 students with HFA (High Functioning Autism) of varying degrees, would like the world to stop randomly assigning autism diagnoses to people who “act weird.” Please stop it.

    ( I read this site with them a lot as we are working on social skills and communications. They are annoyed/confused.)

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I love that you read the site with your students! And yes, the armchair diagnosing on AAM’s comment threads is ridiculous.

      1. paul*

        particularly as anyone with any interaction with people that have actual mental health training knows that’s exactly what you’re not supposed to do! It’s one thing to say “do you know if the person has a diagnosed issue” or something, but the “hey that sounds like XYZ disorder” pretty much immediately tells me you’re probably not qualified to make that statement because someone that was qualified would know better than to tender a diagnoses off a letter to an advice column!

    3. paul*

      Obligatry +1. I know a few folks on the spectrum, and it annoys me when it becomes people’s go to assumption for anyone that’s a bit socially dense/has a hard time exhibiting empathy, etc. It simultaneously gets used to excuse crappy behavior AND marginalizes a group. Lose/lose

    6. Liz2*

      Ditto! And I hijack for people to stop calling themselves OCD just because they need their sock drawer or kitchen counters perfect!

      1. VolunteercoordinatorinNOVA*

        Yes! This is a pet peeve of mine because I have OCD and I wish it was just about having your socks organized by color. It also keeps the idea alive that all people with OCD are uber-clean/organzied which is not the case for many of us.

    7. Princess Carolyn*

      This is an unfortunate side effect of increased awareness. I hear similar comments about ADHD a lot, especially when someone is sort of disorganized or distracted by things that are pretty generally distracting. (And, lately I’ve been fascinated by the overlap between ADHD and Autism when it comes to tactile and sensory stuff.)

  10. AVP*

    I was just watching Gringo, the documentary about John McAfee, and one of his original McAfee Security employees talks about how the office had a club called “Little Foxes” where they’d get points for having sex on various office surfaces. I can’t believe the Duck Club idea has been in existence for decades without my knowledge! (um, not that I’d want to join, but it’s fascinating. Also not surprising that soon after, his investors bought him out because they wanted to raise the company profile and didn’t trust his culture.)

  11. I-don't-want-to-become-Milton Waddams*

    I’ve been at my job for about a year and don’t have any work friends – everyone is nice, and I get along well enough with my team, but I haven’t clicked with anyone yet, and I’m starting to feel like a weird loner.
    The office is kind of a rah-rah, “work hard, play hard (with your coworkers)” place, which isn’t really my style (I prefer small groups and one-on-one interactions); I reluctantly go to office parties/events, but then I dread them beforehand and at the events get overwhelmed by there being so many people and end up standing around awkwardly and chuckling nervously.
    I like having my social life separate from the office, but I want a few people at work I can grab lunch or a coffee with, or have a buddy to walk into these big parties together.

    How did you make friends at work? Any advice particularly for introverts at large extroverted offices?

    1. Lululibrarian*

      I am an extrovert with an introvert best friend who I made (forced myself upon) at work. If it makes you feel better, even as an extrovert I find large gatherings exhausting. Having at least a single buddy you can huddle with helps. Have you just tried asking? I know this is a lot and introverts can find it very hard to approach people, but do you notice other introverts at work? Anyone you’d feel comfortable just saying “hey, do you want to grab coffee before/after/on lunch?”

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Honestly, I didn’t jive well with an office like that. My first post-college job was in a similar workplace and I hated it. Everyone was so fake and slaved away for a company that treated us like numbers, while “rewarding” us with parties and happy hours where managers and employees alike got WAY too drunk.

      I left after a few months. It just wasn’t the right atmosphere for me, and it’s pervasive in that industry anyway. I work in a much calmer, less competitive field now.

      1. paul*

        When I “party hard” it usually inolves 2-3 friends, pizza and either a gun range, football, or animated discussing (alcoholic beverages optional). I’ve never understood companies that want employees to “play hard” with each other. Ew, no. If that’s someone’s thing great but soooo not for me, or a lot of other people

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I have had one job where I really didn’t click with anyone and kind of was a weird loner, even though I am not that person in the rest of the world! I later worked with someone from that job somewhere else, and she had apparently warned the rest of the staff that I was very quiet…. which I was not at all in that workplace!

      TL;DR – It’s not you, it’s them, and some places are just a bad social fit.

    4. AAAANONNNN242*

      I’m in the same boat! It’s particularly difficult because I was well-liked and had a lot of work friends at my previous job.

      I asked a very similar question a few months ago in this open thread and someone suggested that I make small-talk in the kitchen area in the morning and talk about shared interests. I failed miserably at that, but maybe it will go better for you.

    5. BRR*

      If you know certain people who grab coffee or lunch either by themselves or with others I would approach them and you could ask them if they could let you know the next time they run out or if they are running out for lunch and can you join. If you’re doing this in person I like to build in an excuse so people aren’t put on the spot like “hey if you’re running out for lunch can I join you? I understand though if you *easy option for them to opt out*.”

    6. Artemesia*

      Have you tried spotting the other introvert like yourself standing and chuckling in the opposite corner? If there are others and usually there are, make it your mission to seek them out and chat them up so that both of you have a positive one on one experience amidst the wild frivolity.

      1. Artemesia*

        To elaborate, I am an introvert and although I have no trouble socializing at an event where I know people, I find big parties exhausting. In my younger days if I was at an event where I didn’t know many people, I felt exactly as you do. Double this for big professional conference events. I was so grateful for people who sought me out either because they were trying to welcome people not fitting in or because they were fellow introverts. So I learned from that and I I found myself at a function where I was not with people I knew or was not clicking then I looked around and found someone who was isolated and joined them. It was often interesting and fun and occasionally it was an act of mercy that was appreciated; win win.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Acts of mercy. Yes, this.

          I have had some one rescue me and I have been the rescuer. Very seldom do I go somewhere and not find this. There are lots of people looking for someone to talk with and kill time. Keep looking around you, you will spot them.

    7. Liz2*

      I don’t really except one awesome place. Work is work, friends are friends.

      That being said, what got me over my work anxiety and relaxing socially (and yes, introvert) is realizing I actually am a pretty interesting person with cool things to say. It doesn’t matter what really gets talked about but I’m intelligent, well versed and my views on things are worth piping up about.

      Sometimes I still get twinges of “How can no one here not know who Joss Whedon is?” and like I’m obviously not on the same cultural plane, but I realize they have the same twinges and really, how can they not know who Joss Whedon is?

    8. Princess Carolyn*

      I second the advice to just kind of ask: Wanna sit together at the all-hands meeting? I’m grabbing coffee, wanna come? Even something like “I’m gonna need a buddy for the party, can I cling to you?” might be appropriate with the right person.

      Look for people who don’t seem to be in the thick of a close-knit group. There are usually a few people who are “in” with the crowd but not central figures who do everything with the same people. Those are your targets.

  12. Adam*

    RE: Keeping up with email

    How do you stay on top of your work email? My organization REALLY loves the email. Every old joke about email you’ve heard we do: the reply all, being on email lists you really don’t need to be, sending emails when a one minute conversation would suffice. The works. Keeping up with it is driving me crazy. I can spend a whole day cleaning out my email and spend half of it cleaning up incoming messages.

    How do you stay on top of it? If you use Outlook, what sort of archive practices do you use so your inbox isn’t bursting at the seems?

    1. Venus Supreme*

      I use GMail and I have folders upon folders upon folders. They’re color-coded and I have a filter on them so that the mail is automatically organized and coded as it comes in. I hope this helps a little bit! I’ve actually never used Outlook.

      1. Sunshine*

        You can do similar things in Outlook. Filters will automatically file/color code/delete messages as they come in. My company is also very email-centric, and this was a lifesaver for me when I was on several group lists. Also, for those “reply-alls” and various conversations you don’t need to see? The “ignore” button is life changing. Also helps clear out the inbox once the discussion is over. One click and all related messages are gone!

        2. Jenbug*

          The coolest thing you can do with gmail (IMO) is add “+SOMETHING” to your email address and then filter emails that come in that way to a specific folder or apply a label. For example… if your email address is adamworker@gmail.com and you have accounts on Monster, Indeed, and Careerbuilder coming in, you can set it up for them to filter individually.

          1. Log in to Monster and edit your email address to “adamworker+monster@gmail.com”.
          2. Create a label called “Monster” in your gmail settings.
          3. Set up a filter so that email to adamworker+monster automatically gets the Monster label

          Repeat as necessary for each site.

        3. zora*

          Which part?
          You can create filters that send specific emails to a certain folder. Click on Settings, then Filters/Blocked addresses.
          I have filters by subject line for certain emails that get sent out regularly that I can look at later, like a daily “Media Clips” or “Today’s Headlines” .. and it’s really easy to set filters for mailing lists, you can set the filter by sender. And I turn on conversation threading to deal with reply all situations, so they are all showing in one email and I don’t have to expand the conversation if I know I don’t need to know all the replies to the original message.

          Also, Lifehacker often has good posts with additional tips for managing gmail, try their search box. I’ve learned lots of little secrets and cool tips from them.

    3. Future Analyst*

      I move every email that comes in into folders (or delete). If anything can be auto-routed, I set up rules. I try to zero out my inbox every day, keeping only my current “to-do’s.” I also delete with abandon– it feels scary at first, but it’s so freeing!

      1. Harp+Dash*

        Yes, I do this also! I’m a fanatic about keeping my inbox manageable and use lots of folders to keep it cleaned out. If it’s in my inbox, I need to take some action on it. If no action is needed, it needs to be trashed or filed. When I see people’s inboxes with 1000 emails I get hives.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I rely on subfolders and mail rules a lot. For any listserv I’m on, I’ve set up a rule to automatically move that message from my inbox to a subfolder specifically created for that list. (I create the rule either by subject line, if the listserv name is always included in that line, or by sender, if the sender address is always the same). It doesn’t get marked as read, so I see that eventually I need to address it — but it doesn’t overwhelm me as much by sitting unread in a subfolder.

      I try to keep my inbox as a to-do list. Everything else gets moved to a project-specific folder that eventually gets archived.

    5. SaaSyPaaS*

      I delete everything I don’t need (which is a lot since most incoming e-mails are logged to another program anyway). I use rules to organize mail that comes in. For example, if I’m CCd on a message, then it’s most likely not as pressing as something sent directly to me so those messages go into a separate folder, if a message is sent to a distribution list I’m a part of then it gets moved to a folder named the same as the distro list. I don’t use my e-mail as a document repository. Attachments get saved to the server and then the message gets deleted out of my mailbox. If you’re a heavy mail user, turn on auto-archive. There are options within auto-archive that you can set to fine-tune what gets moved out of your mailbox and what stays.

    6. Jenbug*

      Set Rules for certain things to be delivered into specific folders instead of your inbox. For example, Quill loves to spam me multiple times a day. I am responsible for making office supply orders, but I don’t need 95% of the emails I get so all emails from Quill go on a special folder and I just look at it when I get a minute instead of having it clog up my inbox. I also have rules for emails from CareerBuilder, Monster, and Indeed set up to go into their own folders so I can review resumes/applications at specific times.

      I’m also a big fan of color coding things. There’s a little box to the right of the subject line that you can right-click and assign various colors to different tasks. At OldJob, everything was color coded and then I would sort my inbox by Category so that I was going through all Teapot Orders at once and then all Teapot Inquiries and then all Tea Tasting Invites. It was easier to plow through 10 of the same kind of thing at once instead of bouncing around constantly.

    7. CM*

      I have ONE archive folder. I put everything in there and only keep stuff in my inbox that I need to respond to or refer to. I also have a “quick step” set up to move stuff to my archive folder. So stuff leaves my inbox, but I don’t have to spend any time filing it.

    8. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Google “Revive Your Inbox.” It’s a 21-day program focused on getting control on email. It’s amazing. Sign up for it.

      1. Gingerbread*

        OMG, I love this. The reason my inbox gets out of control is because I have about 80 different folders so sorting emails takes forever. I never even refer to the different folders and instead always search for emails, so just adding everything to one “old emails” folder makes more sense.

    9. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I have rules set up for certain emails (daily reports that I only need when I am providing coverage, system generated “notification” emails, etc…) that I really don’t need to look at exactly when they come in. I also have a couple of folders with names like announcements, long convos, and stuff like that. I have the pop-up notification so I can see the sender, subject, and first sentence of the email and decide if I want/need to open it now or it can wait until later. I usually run through the new emails after completing any task so it doesn’t get out of hand.

    10. paul*

      I actually devote 3-4 hours on the last Friday of the month to culling old emails (it eventually bogs down Outlook if I don’t) and filing/archiving them. I have senders automatically assigned to folders too, but there’s still…more…always more that needs to be done.

    11. SophieChotek*

      Yes, at my work we have to CC pretty much everyone which means with various replies it gets full very fast.
      I don’t personally love the “thread/conversations” option, when it bunches all the emails (re>re>re) together, because they I have to read backwards, but that might help keep things together.

      Also I’ve found sorting by sender — I do this every other day — helps me spot emails I might have missed that are important and similarly, I see have 20 emails from Company X and we’re not buying from them, so I just delete them all at once.

    12. Annie Moose*

      If you use Outlook, this won’t help you, but for anyone who uses Gmail, check out the new Inbox by Gmail that Google has put out. I LOVE it. There’s some neat features like automatically bundling related emails together (which you can customize or turn off if the defaults aren’t working for you), convenient integration with Google Calendar, to-do reminders in your inbox, the ability to snooze an email so it will only pop up again later, and by far my favorite thing…

      It makes it REALLY REALLY easy to archive stuff. Just click the little checkmark, and it’s goooone. It is so psychologically satisfying to have an inbox with, like, six emails visible. (and of course your other emails are always accessible if you search for them)

      So in short: it does a bit of organization for you, plus it makes it very easy to clean out the cruft (without having to exert much effort) so you can see just what’s important.

    13. beachlover*

      I hate it when my inbox gets out of control.

      I set up rules to move a few reoccurring emails, reports etc to different folders. I also use outlook and love the ignore feature. We have some depts that copy everyone on information, even if it does not apply to you, so use that quite often. I color code certain people, my boss and grand boss etc. so that I can see those as I am scanning. I will often resort my inbox, by conversation, so I can see the trail and zero in on the latest email. I make it a habit of using any slow time to thru my inbox and clear out anything that is extraneous.

    14. Sibley*

      1. I delete anything I clearly don’t need immediately.
      2. Anything I need to read, I read (not mgmt, so not really a problem for me) and delete or file.
      3. Anything I need to do something with, it stays in my inbox until I’ve done it then it’s deleted/filed.
      4. Sometimes I just pick up the phone and call the person rather than sending an email. Just cause they emailed, doesn’t mean you have to!

      #1 makes a HUGE difference. Just delete the crap, don’t try to work around it.

    15. TootsNYC*

      command-shift M

      My life was revolutionized when I discovered the keyboard shortcut to move an email.

      And then I carefully wrote the names of my folders to that the most common ones begin with a symbol, or a letter/number pattern. So that I can type only 1 or 2 letters to choose the folder.

      The monthly-project folders begin with “01,” for example.
      The important subfolder begins with *, and I move the * from month to month as part of an organization.

      And so I can rapidly move a message into the right folder.
      Being able to do that fast, without a lot of thought (and without the mouse, which I find slow), has made it WAY easier to keep my in-box trim.

      I also set up a filter to move some “just in case” things into a folder; it helps that most people use a common protocol for those emails.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Oh–I always keep my email box sorted “by conversation,” which greatly reduces the number of emails, and it also eliminates the number of times I might actually need to read something. I just read the last one.

  13. Venus Supreme*

    Our entire company is moving to a new building. Everything about the new place is great except… It’s an open-floor plan!! I absolutely love my office now and I’m a little bummed about this change. I also have an issue with sounds, I can’t stand the sound of people chewing/eating/smacking their lips.

    Any tips or tricks to deal with this? If it helps, I’m a grant writer and concentration/focus is key to me getting work done.

    1. Murphy*

      If you have any say in where you sit, try to stay out of a high traffic area (I’m in the main hallway near our front door, and whenever the receptionist is away from the desk, I have to help direct people, sign for packages, etc., so you wouldn’t want my seat!) And headphones. Definitely headphones.

    3. anonymoushiker*

      Good headphones that help block sound, I think. I’ve seen suggestions on here about ‘available’ or ‘busy’ signs if there’s a way to make it visible to people wanting to talk to you.

    4. SaaSyPaaS*

      If your company doesn’t mind, I would use headphones. I worked somewhere where they didn’t want you to use headphones, and it made for a miserable work day when sitting elbow-to-elbow with coworkers. Now, I’m in a semi-open space where the company doesn’t mind the use of headphones, and I use them whenever sounds start to irritate me.

    5. Hannah*

      OH trust me I know how you feel about smacking chewing eating etc! I was born deaf in my left year so I am extremely sensitive to those noises (especially when they’re on my right side).

      When I sat in a cubicle type atmosphere I used ear plugs (well, ear plug haha) and head phones. The ear plugs helped mask out sounds that bothered me.

      Maybe you can request to sit in an area that’s not right next to everyone? Or, have everyone sit in front of you so it sounds out more noise?

      Also, white noise machines are the shiz.

      2. Venus Supreme*

        When I go to see theatre or movies I wear earplugs!

        I really want to request something like this, but I feel like because I am very junior on the team and space is limited, it’ll sound like I’m asking for too much. However the nature of my job requires somewhat peace and quiet. I’ve joked around that they can throw me in the storage room and I’d be happy!

        I might make a comment to my supervisor about it.

        Thank you for the suggestion to sit in the back!!

        1. Artemesia*

          To be productive you need peace and quiet; your job is intricate and you need this; so go to your supervisor and say something like ‘I want to be productive in this new space and I find that when I have to XYZ I really need to be able to concentrate and noise is a distraction. Can we look into locating my space away from the traffic flow so it is likely to offer as little noise and distraction as possible?’

          Note you lead with ‘wanting to do a great job for the company’, you indicate what would contribute to that that the boss controls, you are not asking for a prime particular space. Using this approach I once got offered the prime corner office; I actually turned it down gracefully because I knew that I would have a target on my back if I had that space. But I was able to get the kind of office I wanted that was also not threatening to ambitious people. The whole focus was on what I needed in order to do what they wanted me to do. (not my status needs, or desire for THAT particular office or whatever)

        2. Hannah*

          You’re welcome! Maybe your manager is also a hater of noises and will sympathize :) I was upfront with my old manager and he moved me to a location that was best for me to not be irritated by noises 24/7.

          I would LOVE to sit in a storage room! lol!

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Get some good headphones, and find out where the conference rooms are so you can escape when you need a break. I’m sorry! Open offices are the worst. I adore my cubicle.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Although it’s totally necessary this building be torn down, I’m going to miss my office. It’s bigger than my college dorm room. There’s a vent overhead that drowns out noise. And I have a lock on my door! It’s perfect! I wish I could bring it with me!!

    7. Emac*

      Headphones are definitely key, especially wireless ones. I sympathize on the food sounds – I had a coworker who sat behind me who chewed with his mouth open. He left last week, and though I’ll miss him as a coworker, I’m kinda glad I don’t have to listen to that anymore!

  14. Hermione*

    I mashed some words together yesterday during a meeting and said “do you think they were taughting…” instead of “teaching.” My boss cracked up, as did the rest of us. Anyone have any favorite verbal workplace flub stories they want to share?

    1. Venus Supreme*

      My coworker was trying to describe duct tape and couldn’t think of the word so she called it Kidnapper Tape! It’s been a running joke with her for a little while. One time I couldn’t think of the word pitchfork so I called it Pick-Up Prongs! Haha

    2. Yas Queen*

      Hasn’t happened to me yet, but I’m terrified that instead of saying “best practices” during upcoming training, I’ll say “breast pactices” and all of the field guys will snicker.

    3. Batshua*

      One time I almost said “copulate” because I couldn’t decide between “collate” and “compile”.

      I caught myself before I said it, but just barely. >.<

    5. Mints*

      Context: this was a construction company where I was trying to tell a customer he didn’t need to be home but we needed access to the outside and please leave the gate unlocked.
      Not a word mash but I forgot the word “gate” one time. I was like, “You don’t need to be home but please leave your…door…unlocked…not the house door but the outside door…” He was really nice and we figured it out eventually lol

    7. Retail Gal*

      Not a mash-up, per se, but the other day I tried to say Fossil wallet, but instead said “Fossil wossil”.

      I was tired.

    8. Susan*

      I was talking to my boss + his direct reports about new computer hardware. I was talking about specs, including ‘big disks’. Although I didn’t say disks…

      1. WhichSister*

        My son and I were watching a baseball game on tv… it was the local MLB teams sports channel. They were discussing the player up at bat and his injury the previous season… a bulging disc. They didn’t say disc either. So it could have been worse, it could have been on tv…. (and yes there is a youtube video of the clip as well.)

    9. sometimeswhy*

      Once, trying to use replacement swears in a work setting, my dad meant to say, “Fooey! Shucks!” but transposed the initial sounds. Woops.

      1. Camellia*

        The Ohio River is crossed at one point by the Brent Spence Bridge. Which, in local parlance, is the Bent Sprence Bidge.

    10. TootsNYC*

      Someone once said, “we even sweeped.”

      I used my little sister’s pronunciation of the word “magazine”–she said, “mazagine,” and my family simply always used it ever after–in front of the editor in chief of a magazine I worked on.

      And I deliberately use “sidestracted” at work, actually. My daughter’s mashup.

    11. Amy the Rev*

      One time back when I was a teenager I was babysitting for a neighbor and the dog had explosive diarrhea on their new white carpet. She called to check in and I let her know what had happened and that I had done my best to clean it. She profusely thanked me for dealing with all the ick, and just as I was about to hang up when I tried to say “You’re welcome,” my brain switched halfway through to “No problem”, and it came out as “Your problem!”…

    12. strawberries and raspberries*

      I said “fart time” once when I was trying to say part time and full time at the same time.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        Maybe thinking unconsciously about this, I just got off the phone with a client where I tried to say “daily” and “basic” expenses at the same time and it came out “baily expenses.”

    13. Cam*

      Not quite the same, but one time my boss was asking me about escapees at an all staff meeting (in reference to fish jumping out of their tanks) and I kept hearing it as SKP’s. So we had a whole conversation that went “how many escapees did we have?” “What are SKPs?” “Escapees” “SKPs?”

  15. Future Analyst*

    My manager announced yesterday that our team will have to move to our company’s other office by Jan 3. My commute will change from 20 mins round-trip to 60-90 mins round-trip. I’ve been with the company for a bit over a year, but started my current position 4.5 months ago. I legitimately can’t afford to commute that far (gas and childcare cost alone would decrease my take-home by almost 20%). Will it look terrible to look for a new job at this point? And how do I explain only being in my current role for 4.5 months? (I know in an interview I can explain it well, but I worry that I wouldn’t get interviews without addressing it in advance.)

    Also, a 2 week turnaround for a significant move is awful. :(

    1. Belle*

      First, that timing is awful! That isn’t much time and it is around the holidays.

      Second, I would definitely start updating your resume and job hunting. Most companies will understand that a significant change in your work environment and commute is a good reason to job hunt — especially if you don’t have a history of job hopping.

      I would also encourage you to talk to your manager about possible work from home days (if possible) to temporarily offset the increase cost. That is a huge loss of income to anyone!

    2. J.B.*

      Go ahead and apply. Can you list your entire time with your company as one block on your resume with the different job titles underneath? I think that would make it clear you’ve been in the same org longer. And right now can you ask to telework one day a week to at least cut down that day? Sorry that is really short notice for something that significant!

    3. Mariah*

      Since your new role is at the same company, maybe you could group the two roles under one time frame? That would show your longevity with the company.

      So instead of:
      Teapot Manager, Teapot Company (August – Present)

      Teapot Assistant, Teapot Company (January – August)

      it would be:
      Teapot Company, (January – Present)
      Teapot Manager (August – Present)
      Teapot Assistant (January – August).

      1. CM*

        Yes, it makes sense to group together all your roles at this company. At first I thought you were really there for 4.5 months, and was going to suggest that you mention in your cover letter that you are looking to leave your current job due to a change in office location. But you’ve actually been there for over a year, so I don’t think you need to explain anything until your interview — it’s reasonable to start looking for a new job after a year.

        It sucks that this company decided to spring this on you with so little notice. Best of luck finding something new!

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      One short stint won’t disqualify you from getting interviews. It would take several in a row to do that. It’s also likely that other employers in your industry would know of the move and put two and two together.

      It’s perfectly reasonable and understandable to start looking for a new job.

    5. Zooey*

      My last company’s office relocated. The move was favorable for me (and a lot of other employees) but some people were in your situation. My understanding is that they did receive compensation increases. You should talk to your manager and make it clear how serious the situation is for you — especially on just 2 weeks notice!

      Otherwise, in interviews you can just say “While I enjoyed working for Acme Corp, our team was relocated to another office on short notice, and unfortunately I wasn’t able to make the new location work.” I think most interviewers would understand this.

    6. VivaL*

      Is it possible to ask for a couple of work from home days? Or a 10-7 to avoid traffic? Those might be other solutions.

      I’d definitely take it to your manager the hardship this will cause – you might be surprised.

    7. One Handed Typist*

      That 2 week turnaround is a big deal. I think jump hunting is an excellent idea, but in the meantime you should speak with your manager regarding options. Explain that the increased drive will cause tremendous difficulties for you and see if an alternate schedule is available. If your partner has traditional 8-5 hours and a brief commute, would it be possible to stagger your hours so one of you does drop off and one does pick up? If you can present a few options to your manager, I think it would go a long way toward getting approval to work from home or what not.

    8. TootsNYC*

      Check your state’s unemployment laws. When an employer relocates, you might be eligible for unemployment if the distance is far enough away. I don’t know what it is–it’s often not very generous–but you should investigate so you know.

    9. Chaordic One*

      No, it would NOT look terrible to look for a new job at this point. You had no knowledge that the your office would be moving when you accepted the job. Based on what you’ve said there were no job-related issues while you worked there. You certainly have every right to start looking for a new job and the long commute, as well as increased transportation and childcare costs are all legitimate reasons to find a new job.

      Belle’s suggestion about asking about working from home might be worth a shot. TootsNYC’s suggestion about checking to see if you would be eligible for unemployment is also worth pursuing as these kinds of things vary from state to state, but I’m aware that in some states a move of this sort would be grounds for you to quit and to receive unemployment compensation.

  16. leftout*

    Hi everyone,

    Update on my issue from last week — the Airbnb fiasco: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/12/open-thread-december-9-10-2016.html#comment-1291977

    I took the weekend to digest everyone’s thoughts and come up with a game plan. Honestly, it was a tough call to either go talk to my boss and get ready to for a hard conversation (dropping the phrase “gender discrimination”) or let it go. The idea of not rocking the boat can be very alluring sometimes.

    I let this simmer all week while coming up with a plan. Last week, my boss made an Airbnb reservation. And Junior Colleague (the main guy who keeps talking to everyone about how awesome it’s going to be) has made a few more references: “Airbnb, it’s gonna be awesome!” We even had a conference call this week that ended with him signing off with an uppity “Airbnb, yeah!”

    Yesterday, I went into my boss’s office and had a chat with him. “I’m uncomfortable with the Airbnb thing. When we initially discussed it, I was seeing it through the lens of what it can do for the business — save money on hotel rooms, offer a space for client dinners*, etc. But I keep hearing people talk about how awesome the experience is going to be, and I feel like I’m missing out on valuable opportunities to bond with the team, as well as inevitable work conversations that are going to take place.”

    *This was a big reason my boss advocated the Airbnb in the first place. In lieu of restaurant dinners, which everyone is all-too used to, we could hold more informal, homemade, intimate dinners at the Airbnb. In our first run of this a couple months ago, it was a big success — the guests couldn’t stop talking about how great the Airbnb dinner experience was. The way it fortifies our relationships has been impressive.

    My boss said that he wished he knew before he made the reservation — indicating that he wouldn’t have done so, and that everyone would have stayed at a hotel.

    I proposed this — “I know how great this Airbnb has been for our customer relationships, and I totally support that. And I know you booked the house, so let’s do this: we continue this time the way things are — you at the Airbnb, me at the hotel, and next time, since I anticipate this coming up again, we’ll need to discuss doing it differently.”

    He liked the plan, and suggested a few other measures we can take: Giving me a key to the house so I’m welcome to pass through, having some big hangouts with just the team at the house (that was part of the problem the first time — I went to the house for the first time with customer guests, and I didn’t know where anything was. How can I, say, help get a customer a glass of wine if I don’t know where the glasses are? It’s a small thing that alienated me further.) He’s also going to have a chat with Junior Colleague to nip these bro-like comments in the bud. And after the trip, we’re going to access how I felt about the situation.

    Now, here’s where it gets interesting. I asked why BigBoss was uncomfortable with having me stay there, and I again got the “he’s worried something will happen” response. So I asked him to clarify.

    “You read the news, and you hear these stories of things gone wrong. Say, for instance, that a customer made some serious advances at you, and it got way out of line. How would it look, through the lens of a news story, that you were in a house, with all men, at a party with lots of drinking?” BigBoss would be liable, in the news, in a lawsuit.”

    I said I didn’t see the issue. “There’s always going to be angles like that; it’s the kind of thing I just glaze over.”

    “And besides,” I added, “doesn’t it look worse to have all the men in a house, with the only woman on a team at a hotel?”

    He was a tad surprised. “That’s debatable,” he said. (I’m still steamed about that.)

    I also mentioned that those kinds of things can happen anywhere, at any time. In fact, a customer once got hands with me DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF BIGBOSS’ FACE at a bar. According to my supervisor, the difference is that THAT happened at a bar, where BigBoss isn’t liable.

    He reiterated it’s about risk and risk management, and he doesn’t think it’s wise to carry on the risk of me staying at the house. (Which I think is out-of-this-world stupid. If I had time, I would have mentioned the risk is greater that something happens to me while in one of the several Ubers I’ll be taking to get from the house to the hotel.)

    In the end, my boss said this: “I’m the one who launched the Airbnb idea, and I can end it if I want to. And it’s not worth continuing if it causes you discomfort.”

    So we’ll see how this goes.

    Thanks to everyone for commenting on my thread last week; there was a lot of helpful advice there.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m really glad you raised it! The next time you discuss it with him (since it sounds like there is going to be a next time), you probably need to say something like this to him: “Liability or not, legally we really can’t treat women differently like that.”

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Besides, wouldn’t the company be liable if they had an incident at a WORK meeting (not a happy hour kind of thing, but meeting clients, for which their presence is pretty much required) at a bar? Especially since the company chose to have it at a BAR. Ugh.

      2. leftout*

        Thanks, Alison! I think that language will really help counter the “risk” aspect BigBoss is trying to argue.

      3. Gaara*

        The boss is going to cancel it instead of letting her join in — is there any way to stop that? Because that’s really crappy and positions her to be the “bad guy” that made all the fun end!

    2. Mustache Cat*

      Congrats, but also, wow, what a….a…I can’t think of any word to describe your boss’ perspective except that it’s so male

      1. blackcat*

        He just has no clue that if you don’t want mixed company in a situation, that situation isn’t appropriate for the workplace.

        leftout, have you thought about sending an email to him summarizing the discussion? You can frame it as, “Just so that I remember what we’ve covered so that we the discussion before the next trip goes smoothly…”

        I know you don’t want to, but I do think you should look for a new job. Not in a “I need to get out of here, now” sort of way, but in a “I won’t be able to grow/develop in this position like I could somewhere else” sort of way. Given your boss’s insistence that it’s right to treat you differently because you’re a woman, you’ll be limited at this company.

        1. Emac*

          “if you don’t want mixed company in a situation, that situation isn’t appropriate for the workplace.”

          This needs to be in the employee/manager/everyone who works handbook.

        2. leftout*

          I really am thinking about it. I’m in a niche field of publishing, and it’s hard to find work in that field. I’d have to consider making a swap to a related, but new line of work, which I’ve been considering anyhow, but is pretty scary at the same time.

          In the meantime, when I get really angry about this, I do scan job boards with a glass of wine. :D

      2. Alex*

        I disagree. The perspective would be better described as sexist . I feel at times that word gets thrown around rather carelessly at times but not this time. It definitely fits and they need to stop treating you differently and start treating you like everyone else.

      3. Temperance*

        Yep. He probably even considers himself a feminist because hey! he has a chick on his team and she’s not the secretary!

      5. leftout*

        Yeah, this is something I’ve run into before with him. He means well (I think?), but in our first conversation about this Airbnb idea, he said, “I know its hard to be the only woman on an all-male team. Sometimes there’s advantages, but other times there’s disadvantages.”

        It took all my willpower to keep my hands in check, lest they start flipping tables. WHAT F-ING ADVANTAGES HAVE I EVER HAD?!

      6. leftout*

        Also, BigBoss is the kind of guy who, after I leave a get-together on the road, asks me to text him when I get back to my room. He’s openly said he doesn’t ask the men to do this. “It’s probably a little sexist, huh?” he said.

        Uh, yeah dude.

        1. Camellia*

          Hopefully you refused to do that.

          Also, home-cooked meals at the house? If they do start including you, be very careful about the ‘cooking’ things. Attitudes like this could lead to them trying to get you/expecting you to suddenly take that over, ’cause, you know, it’s wimmins’ work.

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Good for you for talking to him!

      And ya, he is so wrong. BigBoss is way more liable for a discrimination claim right now than he is should something happen. Also, why isn’t he afraid of your coworkers getting groped against their wishes? :sigh:

      1. leftout*

        When I made that comment to my supervisor, “Doesn’t it look worse to have the only woman on the team at a hotel while everyone else stays at an Airbnb,” I think that lit a small lightbulb in my supervisor’s head. I really think they hadn’t considered before the idea that they were party to gender discrimination. Which is CRAZY.

    4. Venus Supreme*

      He’s “worried something will happen” if you stay at the Airbnb? What if, *godforbid*, something happened to you at the hotel where you’re all alone? BigBoss will STILL be held liable because it was HIS decision to keep you away from the team. Pair that with the overall gender discrimination issue and he’s still not helping his case. Gender discrimination is NOT debatable. I’m steaming too.

      BigBoss is a buttface, and I’m so glad you’re sticking up for yourself. I hope the trip goes well!

      1. TL -*

        I think BigBoss is seeing it as if something happens in a bar, ect., it’s not his responsibility to deal with, morally. (OP shouldn’t be drinking, men at bars just get handsy, whatever…) But if it happens in a house than he has to actually deal with the theoretical assaulters. And that’s probably compounded by the fact that there are beds in a house but not in a bar, so to him, worse things can happen in a house.

    6. Alex*

      I’m trying to make sense of your boss and Big boss’s reasoning. So he is worried about the liability of “something will happen” but not the liability of treating an employee differently solely on the basis of gender. No matter which way I look at it the dots aren’t connecting. This is definitely a problem.

      1. TL -*

        I mean, I’m not impressed by the people he’s hiring/working with if that’s a concern.

        One of my brothers hosted a drunken party and at the end of the night, told me to go sleep in his room with the door locked. My other brother held one and didn’t worry at all about me passing out on the couch. I’m much more comfortable with one group of friends than the other.

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      Good for you for speaking up and saying something! Your boss though, is just….such a guy. Not necessarily a bad guy, but a guy. He may well think that he’s being considerate of you, your feelings, and your safety, and doesn’t get that it amounts to you being treated differently because of your gender, which is not OK.

      Even his closing comment of saying it’s not worth continuing with the Airbnb thing “if it causes you discomfort” implies that he feels that it will be your fault if he decides not to do it again. And even if he doesn’t explicitly say that to your other (male) co-workers, it’s quite possible it will be implied, which will then make you the wet blanket for complaining about the bro-time.

      At least he agreed to try and include you more, which I guess is *something.*

      1. leftout*

        Yeah. It’s definitely not perfect. I mentioned this before, but it’s not the first time I’ve run into weirdly gendered things here; this is just the biggest.

        BigBoss likes to ask me to send him a text so he knows I got home safe after a work event, and has admitted he doesn’t do that for the men. My supervisor has asked me if it’s flattering to be hit on at work events. My coworker dragged a networking contact to a party bus we were on (she was tired and didn’t want to come), and Junior Colleague openly called her a slut.

        I looked him dead in the eye and told him to shut the fuck up for that.

        1. blackcat*

          The more you say about this workplace, the more I think you need to just get out. You are being actively discriminated against, repeatedly. More power to you if you want to stay and fight, but this really seems like a no-win situation.

    8. CAA*

      Glad you had the discussion and I think you arrived at a reasonable outcome for this year’s event.

      I do think you’re missing one thing in what the boss’ and big boss’ are saying though. You keep talking about how something could happen to you at a hotel or bar or wherever, and the house is actually more safe for you than anywhere else. But the boss and big boss are talking about what could happen to themselves or the company if something happened to you at the house. Even if the odds are lower, they have more to lose if something happens to you at the house than if something happens to you in a public place. You are thinking mainly about your personal safety, while they are also factoring in their professional safety.

      1. CAA*

        I am not saying this is right, just trying to translate what I think they’re saying so you’re not talking at cross purposes in future conversations.

        Also, don’t you guys have any female customers? How come they are not concerned about how it looks to bring them to a house?

        1. leftout*

          You’re totally right. When my supervisor mentioned it to me, it SOUNDED like it was a matter of my personal safety, but it’s not. As you said, he thinks he’s protecting himself.

    9. STX*

      What if something happens to one of the male employees at the AirB&B? Wouldn’t the boss be just as liable? This idea that only women are vulnerable to assault is common, but it’s plain wrong and it leads to this kind of discriminatory behavior.

      1. Amy the Rev*

        Truth! Recent studies have shown that when the definition of rape is amended from being ‘forcibly penetrated’ to also include ‘being force to penetrate’, the number of reported (not necessarily to police, but to the study) male rape victims becomes equal to that of reported (not necessarily to police, but to the study) female rape victims. This is why I can’t stand it when people frame sexual assault as a “women’s issue”

        1. Alex*

          +1000 I couldn’t agree more. I feel like it is very invalidating to male victims to frame it as a woman’s issue. People should be working to find ways to help more people, not find ways to exclude them from services, protection, etc.

    10. Temperance*

      I’m so proud of you! Seriously, advocating for yourself in a dude-run environment with no other women to back you up is one of the hardest things to do, and you DID IT.

      1. leftout*

        Thank you! That means a lot. For realz. And thank you for your comments last week, they really helped me develop a plan.

      2. Trix*

        Seriously, this.

        Honestly, I am totally inspired by you. You are handling a shitty situation like an absolute badass, and I am going to remember you next time I encounter some bullshit at work that just feels to exhausting to respond to.

    11. BabyShark*

      I missed this in last week’s open thread but wow. wow wow wow. You are an impressive woman, and mad props for sticking up for yourself.

  17. Lunch Meat*

    When doing a vendor RFP, is it okay to reject someone just because I don’t like how many times they called me during the process and don’t feel like we’d work well together? And if so, what is the best thing to tell them? They were one of the finalists last time, so I feel like I owe them more than a form rejection.

    1. Anon for this*

      YES.

      “Isn’t the right match for our needs” will work, and thank them for their time and effort.

      1. the gold digger*

        You don’t owe them a detailed explanation at all, especially if they are already getting on your nerves. Anon for this has a great response. Do not feel guilty! You owe them nothing – it’s just bidness.

      1. caligirl*

        Absolutely! I’ve taken a vendor out of the running before because if they are this annoying in the beginning… in 3 months it could be unbearable.

    3. anonny*

      Honestly, you should feel free to say that the level of communication was too much during the RFP process and you’re going with another vendor.

      I work as a sales manager (fwiw my style is to barely call my customers because no one likes that!) and getting feedback is so hard! A lot of times I know my customers don’t want to hurt my feelings, but if they just say ‘x product doesn’t work because of y’ or ‘we hated z feature’ or ‘we were disappointed in the level of communication’–none of that will hurt my feelings and all of it will make it WAY easier for me to do my job, not just with that customer but with other customers, too.

      Obviously you’re not obligated to share your feedback, but pleas don’t feel like doing so would be unkind. Getting feedback-especially negative stuff–is the often hardest part of sales, in my experience.

    4. DCGirl*

      You are also free to put something about communications in any future RFPs. It’s not unusual in government RFPs to have it stated that questions can only be asked via email (and frequently to a mailbox address like procurementdept@agency.gov) and that phone calls are not permitted.

      1. Brett*

        When I worked on grading RFPs from the gov agency side, vendors would occasionally be disqualified for excessive or improper communication with evaluators. Limiting communication to formal channels was treated very seriously, and vendor-initiated phone calls were considered particularly egregious (no written record).

    5. SophieChotek*

      Yes, totally.
      I work with B2B and B2C and it’s frustrating to have vendors call all the time when you’ve been clear you will let them know decision, etc.
      I also know a lot of sales wisdom says people won’t decide until sometimes 4th of 5th contact, so (sales) feel like they need to keep being persistent and reminding the buyer that they are an option — but I agree, it can really turn one off.

      1. anonny*

        I work in sales, and I’ve never heard this theory! It just sounds like an excuse to badger people to me.

        I have found that it’s important to follow up, but it’s just as important to have a reason to follow up (ie one of us has new information for the other)

        1. SophieChotek*

          I read this theory all the time! Even my manager subscribes to this theory. I tell him people find it annoying, but he keeps telling me that we need to contact people…he always talks about how it took 2 years to land this huge account…which is still our biggest account…

    6. Artemesia*

      We dropped someone from the penultimate round for a job because he hounded the secretary constantly about when he would be interviewed (we had a few other reasons, but his resume alone put him in our top ten and because he was local and we could hve interviewed him without flying him in, we would probably have interviewed him). The problem with explaining to someone like this is they are already aggressively annoying and will take an explanation as a reason to continue to protest, complain and go over your head. Our guy did all of this and our only response was a bland, ‘we decided to go with another candidate; it was a great field and we had many qualified applicants’. Then he threatened an age discrimination suit; we just ignored that because the person we had hired was 55 year old woman and the person on a similar search before that was a 60 year old man.

  18. Audiophile*

    I think I committed a cardinal sin, so to speak. I told my direct boss that I was job searching. She was supportive, offered to be a reference and we discussed my frustrations again. A few days later, she hit the panic button. She proposed telling big boss and giving me a few months. We didn’t settle on anything and it hasn’t been discussed since but I imagine it will come up again in our weekly chat.

    I’m thinking about just promising to stay for the next 4-5 months, putting me at a total of 9-10 months in the job. Thoughts?

    1. T3k*

      Yeaaaah, sounds like you shouldn’t have mentioned it. I made the same mistake (needed time off to take GRE in the winter, stupid me didn’t just say “doctor’s appointment” and 3 months later I was laid off… nope, not still bitter about that, nope). Depending on your work history, would it be possible to try and stretch out the time so you could be there for at least a year? Of course, if you’re lucky and find a new job soon, you could just leave this one off your resume if there isn’t a huge gap between your last job and a new one. And sorry about the sucky situation :(

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Ooof. Not good. You shouldn’t have mentioned it. Like T3K mentions below, it might be good for you to try and stay at least 12 months for the sake of your resume’s appearance. But keep applying for jobs. Just protect yourself.

    3. Audiophile*

      I normally wouldn’t have mentioned it but I had a moment of weakness and blurted it out.

      I can’t really leave it off my resume since I’ve been in the job almost six months and I only added it so I didn’t look unemployed and could state that payroll issues were my reason for leaving.

      I understand her concerns since there’s a big fundraiser coming up in a few months and she’s worried that I’ll leave her in a lurch, so I’d be willing to stay through the fundraiser but probably not much longer then that.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “Giving you a few months”? That is really odd.
      “putting me at a total of 9-10 months” This is also very odd.
      So it must be that you told her in a few months then she wanted you to add a few more months and this is how you got these numbers?

      All you owe her is two weeks notice. That’s it.

      At this point you have to do what you think is best. Only you know the relationships involved. I have had a couple of bosses that I would work with on planning my last day but most bosses just get the standard two week notice. Don’t let her keep extending this day more and more into the future. Remember part of being a manager is planning what to do if any one of the employees quits all of the sudden. So it’s a part of her job to figure out what to do.

      1. Audiophile*

        Let me clarify: I mentioned the interview to direct boss because I said something like “I might take Friday off” and then said “well I’m scheduling interviews and I have one on Friday”. When I ended up not taking Friday off, and went into work at a later time, direct boss naturally asked how it went and I said it got canceled, but had other possible interviews. (In hindsight, I’d say this was my biggest blunder, I think I gave the impression that I had “tons” of interviews in the coming weeks and it would only be a matter of time before I’d run into her office and give my two weeks notice.)
        She then admitted she was panicking about my admission that I’m interviewing. She said she was open to transition plans and wants me to be happy, but that her concern is heightened because we have this upcoming fundraiser and the two of us will be doing a majority of the planning and coordinating of the event. She’s afraid I’ll quit in the middle of this planning and leave her to plan it on her own. This is where the “few months” comment came from. The event is in May, and if I left right after, I’d be two months shy of 1 year. Obviously, if I make it that far I might as well stay the two months so I hit the one year mark. We’re both new to the org and we have a pretty relaxed and friendly relationship because it’s such a small department.

  19. Red*

    I’m currently a pharmacy tech, but I’ve been thinking lately about what I really want to do for the rest of my life and I’m mostly decided on going back to school and becoming an actuary. Are there any actuaries here that would have any advice to me?

    2. Dennis*

      I don’t think you HAVE to go back to school as long as you have a Bachelor’s degree. You can self study to pass a few tests and start applying (which may be easier said then done).

      1. Red*

        I don’t have a bachelor’s degree, just an associate’s. In general studies. That helps with nothing, career-wise.

    3. Paul B.*

      You could also look at the website http://www.beanactuary.org/
      It has helpful information about being an actuary.
      It’s possible to pass exams by studying on your own, but you’d have to be really discliplined. And you need a Bachelor’s degree anyway, so you may as well enroll in a college that can help you along this path. The website lists schools with actuarial programs.

  20. Anon for this*

    So I work for a large company in the middle of merger turmoil–have been here for 5 very happy years. I love the people I work with and the organization I support. I hate the way the culture of my newly merged team is shaping up (everyone fighting for territory), the need to have butt in seat at the office to be visible even though the company is pro telecommuting, and the fact that my boss and I both got screwed in the reorg.

    So I have an opportunity that appears to be heading toward an offer with a Fortune 50 company that has been my career holy grail for awhile. I also have feelers out with a couple of groups inside my organization.

    I’m started to panic about leaving my team/company. I’m a single parent and my current situation is a known quantity for work/life balance and a great commute, plus they know I do a great job.

    Is this normal or is my gut telling me to pump the brakes?

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      Totally normal. Change is scary!

      I mean, make sure that the new company is a good fit for you- sometimes dream jobs don’t live up to the dream- but I don’t think your fear of change is a sign that you should stay where you are.

    2. CM*

      Normal! Plus, while it’s completely normal to fear change (especially when work/life balance is at stake), in your case, change has already happened. The awesome situation you had is already in the past.

    3. Ann Furthermore*

      Totally normal. I am 2 months into a new job, and left a job/company I’d been with for almost 12 years. I was freaking out about leaving, but I knew it was the right thing to do. The situation had some similarities to yours. The company is a subsidiary of a huge corporation, and the parent company essentially forced out the old (and much beloved) CEO and sent in a guy who is essentially a hatchet man, who is cutting things left and right and in general making everyone miserable.

      I’m in a great situation now, and I’m so glad I made the move. I really miss all the friends I made at my old company, but that’s it. I don’t miss the backstabbing, the political maneuvering, and having the constant worry of the axe falling at any minute, since there was/is quite a bit of outsourcing happening, with no end in sight.

      Put aside all the worries of leaving the familiar, because change is a scary thing for most people. Focus on the job itself. Will it be a good career move for you? Do you get a good feeling about the people you’ll be working with, and who your manager will be? How do they feel about working remotely?

      As an example, during my interview, I asked my (then future) manager about working remotely, because the one drawback to this job was the commute. OldJob was 15 minutes each way, this one is 45 on the days I’m in the office. Conventional wisdom says that you shouldn’t be asking about perks early in the interview process, but it was a big factor for me, and if I was going to have to drive to the office every day, I wanted to know that. So I led into it by saying that I’d read the reviews on Glassdoor, which were all very positive, but there were a couple comments about how the company was outgrowing the current office space. I said something like, “I live in [southern suburb], so the drive here wouldn’t be too bad, but you’re not going to up and move to [suburb way on the north end of town], are you?. That would be quite a haul.” I kept my tone kind of light, but threw the question out there. My manager chuckled and said no, that the company founder (CTO) lived nearby, so the office would probably always be somewhere in the area it was located now. Then I said, “My husband does not have a job where he can work from home or flex his hours, so when there’s a snow day or late start at school or some other kind of issue, I’m normally the one that has to handle that. Will that be a problem?” She said no, that most people work from home at least a couple days a week, and then said something (I can’t remember now exactly what) that made me think that she was worried I’d be asking about the same thing when talking to the CTO and CEO. I said, “Well, companies have different expectations about time in the office vs. time spent working remotely. I would hate to start assuming something would be OK and then find out that it’s not. That wouldn’t be good for either of us, so I just wanted to put it out there.”

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Also — I’m almost 2 months in, and working from home 3 days a week, which is fabulous. If you have a good sense about the company (which it sounds like you do), your manager, and co-workers, as well as the work you’ll be doing, go for it.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      It’s just like any other change. When you finally make it, you’ll realize you should have done it earlier.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Panic is sometimes lack of information. You don’t know where you are going to be specifically or how much it will pay and so on. So along comes panic and the brain latches on to whatever random thing it can. In your case your mind went to the photo in your head of you leaving. “I know this place, I am safe here. I don’t know what is over there.”

      Right, you don’t know what is over there. But you have been reading AAM, you know how to ask great questions on the interview(s) so you can collect of lots of facts. Once the facts are in place THEN you can decide.
      See, simply applying and interviewing is NOT the same as a decision to leave. Go one step at a time, do reality checks each step of the way. If you still are worried talk to a trusted friend/relative and ask their inputs. Or ask questions on the open thread here. Once you have your facts you can make your final decision.

  21. Paloma Pigeon*

    Just a quick update on my party wear angst of a few days ago – Betsey Johnson to the rescue. God bless her, used to run around in her stuff all the time in my 20’s.

    It’s also just rained in LA, so all bets are off on shoe wear. Just going to drink wine and have a politely good time.

  22. Tuckerman*

    If I do reporting with another staff member (as in, we’re both responsible for annual reporting and often do it together), how do I list that on a resume?

      1. Tuckerman*

        I think that would be good if that was my job title, but it’s really just a small part of my job (I want to include it because it’s a relevant skill for my new field)

    2. NK*

      I don’t see any reason to indicate on a resume that you did it with someone else, unless what you’re trying to demonstrate is your teamwork skills. When you talk about it in an interview, sure, you can discuss that angle, but in a resume I’d just say you did the annual reporting on XYZ, which is true.

      2. Tuckerman*

        Ok. I wasn’t sure if that was dishonest (making it look like I’m the only person at the org responsible for reporting by not indicating I was one of two people).

  23. Rowan*

    I’m curious if Alison (or her readers) have noticed the new “Survey Says” feature at FiveThirtyEight, which answers work questions partly by surveying people and analyzing the results. (link to follow in separate comment)

    2. CAA*

      Yes, I’ve been reading them. I actually took one of the surveys so it was interesting to see the aggregate results.

    3. zora*

      I think we talked about the first one in an open thread, the one about the Gum Chewer, and I REALLY didn’t like the answers from either of the “advice-givers”, plus I thought the choices they provided in the survey weren’t good and left out the ‘right’ answer, which is just talk to the gum chewer first! But maybe I should check out a couple before I decide how I feel about the column in general.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think it’s sort of like the problem with Zagat guides — you don’t know who you’re getting your advice from, and crowd-sourcing advice isn’t always going to give you the best results.

  24. Folklorist*

    HO-HO-HAPPY ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST! There HAS to be something you’ve been putting off this time of year. Go do it! And come back and tell us! Naked Gold Barbie trophies for all who do!

    2. Junior Dev*

      Telling the unemployment office I found a job. (All my interactions with them have been so aggravating, but at least this one will be the last one.)

      Calling the bank about Car Loan Business.

      Extra bonus if I have time: rearranging my clothes so the summer clothes are in storage and the winter clothes are easily accessible.

      1. Cristina in England*

        High five! I sent mine off today despite running out of envelopes and trying to use up a random assortment of monetary value stamps for my international cards (for instance I had 2x 5p stamps, 6x 42p stamps, and 1x 47p stamp). Phew!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Not work-related, but I did get my oil changed today. It was overdue and my interview was cancelled today because the interviewer was sick. So after I took care of my 401k rollover paperwork at the bank, I made an appointment. While waiting for my appointment, I got the last two windows in my house done that I needed to shrink wrap. So I did two! Two things! Ah ah ah!

  25. AMD*

    How on earth do you deal with morning sickness at work? I am nauseated 24/7 right now, way too early to tell my coworkers, and I work in retail pharmacy so calling off or retreating to an office are not options. I have a few days off right now which is nice, but I don’t know how to deal with this at work.

    1. Pixel*

      Ugh, not fun at all. Make sure to get plenty of R&R when not working, stay hydrated and rest even when not tired (but if it’s you’re first trimester, you’re always tired). Nibble on raw almonds, saltines and crystallized ginger, drink some ginger ale if you can keep it down, take a deep breath and wait for the 12-week mark. At work you can say you’re coming down with some bug, since it seems like everyone else is sick. All the best!

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Second ginger ale. I started a new medication last month and the main side effect of nausea hit me hard. I literally couldn’t keep anything down, none of the nausea suggested stuff was working. Only thing I was able to keep down and actually help was ginger ale, but it had to be flat, the carbonation actually made it worse. Eventually I was able to move on to applesauce, but the ginger ale was the big help that let me get thru the worst 24 hours.

        1. AMD*

          Thanks! I will try those things, and try to keep some flat ginger ale around. (Awesome husband bought me a packet of candied ginger today which is also useful.) Fortunately (?) a bad stomach virus has been going around with my coworkers, so I might be able to pass it off as that. Thank you!

    2. Bend & Snap*

      Have you asked your doctor for Zofran? It really helps. I was really nauseated until the second trimester and this usually kept me from puking at work.

      2. One Handed Typist*

        Zofran is no longer the primary medication given for pregnancy sickness. There have a been conflicting studies that it may cause cardiac abnormalities in the baby. Which sucks because it literally saved my life when I had hyperemesis gravidarum.

        1. PackersFan*

          Interestingly enough those studies were sponsored by the main competitor of Zofran. My husband who is a physician also found this study when I was needing it (5 months ago) but it was after I had already taken it. It is still classified by the FDA as a Class B medication.

          In general though I do agree it is worthwhile to note the studies about medications and decide if the potential for risk outweigh the benefit.

    3. Murphy*

      Do what you can to minimize it for your own comfort (saltines and ginger ale like Pixel said, vitamin B6 can help). I know it sucks to have to tell people earlier than you want to, but maybe at least give a heads up to your supervisor, letting them know how you’re feeling and that you’re doing all that you can to manage it, but these things can happen. They can’t help you if they don’t know what you need. And hang in there! I’ve been there recently and it sucks.

    6. TheCupcakeCounter*

      My coworker used those magnetic brackets for motion sickness and citrus water. I drank a lot of peppermint and ginger tea.

    7. paul*

      Not from pregnancy but I have bad ulcers that flare up sometimes.

      I just try to clean up the stall after I’m done puking and tell them I’ll be OK in a few minutes. Is there a bathroom nearby at least?

    8. just another librarian*

      I have:
      -taken Zofran (also could try an OTC mix of B6 and half of a Unisom)
      -drank ginger ale
      -drank lemonade
      -ate hard candy
      -downed my rate in crackers

      All are worth trying! And congratulations! :)

    9. Artemesia*

      Not easy. The key for me was blood sugar and keeping something in my stomach. So I had grapes to nibble and saltines and for me cokes were good. But I also had some privacy and my own office. Congratulations, by the way.

    10. DaBlonde*

      What worked best for me while pregnant was to not let my stomach ever get too empty or too full. I nibbled on carbs constantly, mostly crackers and toast, and sipped water or tea almost constantly.
      I also avoided most greasy foods, except french fries, the baby loved french fries.
      Keep trying different types of bland comfort foods and see what works for you.

    11. One Handed Typist*

      My last pregnancy I had to start with diclegis at 4 weeks – literally two days after I confirmed my pregnancy. My first pregnancy I was on zofran from 14 weeks until 6 weeks after I delivered. The diclegis really helped the early pregnancy sickness, but to be fair diclegis is just B-6 and Unisom! Literally, it just a blend of those two, so you can get dosing information from your OB and take it yourself.

      1. AMD*

        Did you find the Diclegis/Unisom made you sleepy? I worry about checking people’s medication while taking a sleep medication.

        1. Harp+Dash*

          I was prescribed Diclegis, and my main dose was before bed so I wasn’t extra tired from the medication. I could take an extra in the morning as needed.

    12. kw10*

      My coworker told everyone she had a “lingering stomach virus” and blamed the throwing up on that. It was also a good excuse for explaining the doctors appointments and not joining people for happy hour.

    13. Sophia in the DMV (DC-MD-VA)*

      Zofran worked for me but it made me (TMI) so constipated my spouse had to give me an enema. Nope. After that I just dealt with it

    14. Jubilance*

      I found that keeping my blood sugar steady helped immensely. I started having a snack in the middle of the night, and once I did that, I didn’t wake up with morning sickness. Also I had smaller meals or snacks throughout the day. For the days when I didn’t plan well, the Preggie Pops that are basically ginger candies were a lifesaver. Also you could try taking 1/2 a Unisom tablet + 1/2 a Vitamin B6 tablet before bed – that’s also a safe & effective way to prevent morning sickness the next day.

      Best of luck!

  26. T3k*

    I’m starting to feel frazzled at still not having a job, or even an interview, since June. I’ve actually created a “denied” tag in my inbox just to mark how many I’ve applied to and never heard anything *sigh* It doesn’t help that there’s no way for me to go “I got laid off from the first job, that’s why it’s only 7 months!” on some applications. Second job stayed a year, but the duties were changing drastically and the abysmal pay wasn’t worth it, or the hellish commute, so I finally quit (though I stayed there far longer than past designers, who were only there for 3-5 months). In the meantime, I’ve been working on my portfolio, adding more designs, and sold some on design sites (think like Etsy, but just a design, and you get paid a small amount for each sell you make of the design, and it’s all free on your part). But I’m not sure if I can add that part to my resume, as it’s not really freelance, is it? And the amount I’ve made isn’t enough to cover anything, just pocket change.
    I just hope 2017 has something better in store for my life.

    1. Jenbug*

      Have you considered signing up with a temp agency? It might at least get you out of the house and earning a little money. And sometimes those jobs can lead to long term/permanent employment.

      2. T3k*

        I have started to look around for some in the area, but have decided to wait until after the holidays to apply (I don’t want to get caught up in all the craziness of holiday hours). We do have specialty agencies for my line of work, buuuut… they suck. From what I hear, the only way to get a job through them is to basically call them everyday and I don’t think that’s a good way to go. I’m also debating using a trial with a virtual assistant job site and see if that will be better for me.

    2. anonny*

      Definitely add your current design work!! The amount if $$ is irrelevant. It’s about showing your commitment to working and your skills.

      Also it might be time to have a new set of eyes review your resume and cover letter.

      1. T3k*

        Yeah, I’m dreading having a set of eyes to look over my stuff, mainly because the person I know who’s well qualified for such is a parent (they help with the hiring process for their department’s residency every year). But I guess it won’t hurt to ask anyways while I think of others to look it over.

    3. Batshua*

      It’s totally freelance! Add it to your resume, it’ll show you’re not sitting on your butt doing nothing.

    4. Karanda Baywood*

      You can definitely add freelancing as your current position on your resume. It’s not how much you made or how many clients you had. It’s that you are currently doing design work for others.

    5. Erin*

      From the description, you sound like you’re talking about Redbubble or Society6. Definitely add those to your resume! Simply say that you’re doing design work for “T3K Designs” and add the links to where you’re selling them. You’re basically saying that you’re occasionally running your own little business, which is pretty normal for lots of designers/illustrators, especially the full-time freelancers! And I agree with the other commenters about getting a second set of eyes to review your cover letter, resume, and definitely your portfolio. They might be able to give you a second opinion, like maybe your portfolio is great but for the jobs you’re looking for you need to show…idk, more vector work, or a more streamlined brand, or something. Best of luck to you in 2017!

      1. T3k*

        Thanks! (and thanks to everyone else’s suggestions). I actually go through TeePublic right now, but the more sites I can post my designs on, the better, so I’ll definitely look into those 2.

    6. Franzia Spritzer*

      The design side hustle you’ve got going on is freelance and it’s ok to put it on your resume as such. Work is work and you’re working, so it’s work, even if it’s side hustle. Every designer I know works a combination of freelance and contracting. Does your area have a design specific agency like The Creative Group or any local agencies you can get in with?

      1. T3k*

        I mentioned it further up, but we do have a TCG in the area, but they really don’t do anything. They have a high turnover rate with reps, so I could get a call from one who wants to update my info, then 6 months later, another call from a new rep. From what I’ve heard, to even get a real shot at any jobs they get, you essentially have to bug the hell out of them everyday and I’m not comfortable with that tactic.

    7. Chickaletta*

      As a fellow designer, yeah, it’s rough out there. (Kids, don’t become designers, the field is over saturated enough already, kay?) If you’re selling work in an online store then include it on your resume, just be sure to point out that’s what you’re doing as it’s very different from designing for a client. If you’re earning income and paying taxes, then it’s freelance (as opposed to designers who are just playing around on Photoshop in their parent’s basement, or beginners who do everything for free to “get experience” or “build their portfolio” – those are hobbyists).

      I think most people hiring designers these days know it’s hard to find work and they’re not going to blink at a gap in employment. Showing that you’re staying busy and up to date by selling work online is a good way to demonstrate commitment to the field, I’d think.

    8. SeekingBetter*

      Hope that 2017 starts the balling rolling for you. It’s good to hear that you’re still doing something design-wise, even though it’s not financially viable. Good luck!

  27. NASA*

    I will be speaking at a conference in a few months and had to turn in a Speaker Bio. I am a young professional and I didn’t have much to say. I ultimately wrote three sentences: NASA is a Jupiter Specialist with Gov Agency. Previously NASA did XYZ with the same agency. She now specializes in QRS.

    It didn’t feel right to include my undergrad and grad institutions so I left that off. (And honestly, why would anyoe care where I went to school? Sorry I didn’t get my graduate degree at Yale…)

    What does one put when they have only been a professional for a few years without many accomplishments? I should have just wrote, “NASA is low on the totem pole and yet is here to speak to you today at this national conference.” :)

    2. thehighercommonsense*

      Honestly, what you put sounds fine. It’s really just to give folks a sense of “yes, I’m qualified to speak on this topic.” I’ve done the same: “thehighercommonsense is Position at Gov Agency where she specializes in Thing.”

    3. Jersey's Mom*

      You can put in a couple of sentences about areas of your expertise that you’re especially interested in, or expect to be working toward in the future:

      Throughout NASA’s career s/he has been interested in Sirius, and hopes to learn more about the dog star in the future. NASA also expects to be focusing on Jupiter’s rings at work.

      It’s ok to mention personal areas of interest if they dovetail with the conference. I wouldn’t put something like “NASA is interested in the behavior of giraffes.”

    4. Nye*

      I usually look at bios from previous conferences/seminars and base mine on that. If schools are typically included, include them – if not, don’t. If there’s some area of research you are particularly interested in, describe it. Presumably the bios are just to give attendees a general idea of what you might be talking about.

      Also – don’t agonize over it! It’s unlikely anyone will give it a second glance, and it’s expected that early-career professionals won’t have the same list of accolades as industry silverbacks.

      Enjoy the conference!

    5. Gladiator*

      I’m early in my career and I include my undergrad degree in those type of things, even though I went to a state institution. I feel like if nothing else it raises the visibility of the school I went to, and may help people connect with me (i.e. “you went to UCLA? My daughter is going there next fall,” or something). I would certainly include a masters degree. Maybe it’s field specific, but I see even older folks in my field citing masters degrees at all kinds of institutions in their bios.

    6. Rat Racer*

      I see people put their alma maters on their bios all the time. Maybe convention varies by industry, but I have my undergrad and graduate degrees on my speaker bio.

    7. Student*

      Try to put yourself in the shoes of the person who is trying to decide whether to come to your talk or not. They don’t know you at all, and they may be from a wide variety of technical backgrounds. They want to know a basic, high-level description of what type of work you do. So, what’s a Jupiter Specialist do? Does that mean to research Jupiter’s moon geology, look at Jupiter’s chemical composition, track its gravitational effects, try to figure out how to get a satellite there, search it for water, or send out tweets in the name of the big red spot on social media?

      If you now specialize in QRS, what does that mean if you are talking to somebody with a good general science background but isn’t in your field – what is a basic description of what you do and what you’re trying to accomplish?

      Nobody is sitting there deciding to go to your talk based on your grad school or your awards list on your CV. They want to know what kind of cool tech stuff you do, and whether you can write a few sentences that they both understand and find interesting. You’re selling how interesting your talk will be to fellow nerds, not setting yourself up for a job interview or a brag-fest.

    8. Artemesia*

      I had to do this a lot. What I did was look at the bios on previous programs, or if I couldn’t find the ask the organizer for a link or example from previous programs. Mostly they don’t want a lot of words but often indicating where you graduated is considered relevant news. Usually you just provide you highest degree. After completing her MS (or PhD or whatever) in electric molycoddling at Yale, she . . . Your three sentences are fine. When they include this sort of thing in programs, usually they want it to be short and sweet.

    9. Rache*

      My boss actually does have to submit a bio often, and even though she graduated several years ago her college is still listed (helps that she’s alumni) as well as her degrees. It seems to be the norm and she’s a C-level executive.

  28. Anon, but not a bad person*

    Any suggestions for not-mean Secret Santa presents for a coworker you’re at BEC level with, who’s been with the org four months but has done absolutely no work and is generally disgusting?

    1. Stephanie*

      Starbucks gift card–easy to get (assuming you’re in a large-enough metro area) and they’re inoffensive. Even the person doesn’t drink coffee, he can usually buy a baked good or a mug or something.

      I’ll say Target for similar reasons.

      1. Anon, but not a bad person*

        I should have added that there’s a no gift card rule, because the organizer is a sadist.

        2. Ann Furthermore*

          No gift card? WTF? Probably some sort of misguided attempt to make things feel more “personal.” Ugh.

        3. Nanc*

          Starbucks anyway! This time of year they almost always have little sample packets of stuff and it looks nice. They can always regift it. Alternatively, is there a local chocolate shop where you can get a pretty little box for them and a big box for yourself?

    2. Adlib*

      Dollar Tree? They generally have knick-knacks that are pretty generic, and you definitely won’t break the bank if you are not feeling it with this person.

    3. Red*

      Many people like food gifts. I think some nice crackers and cheese would be both secretly hilarious and well received. Barring that, it may just be the really dry air where I work, but everyone likes lotion, so that makes a good “I don’t know you or like you but here’s a thing” gift.

      2. Anon, but not a bad person*

        This is actually an amazing suggestion, because I can be sure no one will get it except me, which will make it kind of like a Secret Santa present to me too.

      4. Artemesia*

        Food gifts are great around the holidays as they are both consumable and regiftable. Lotion is too personal. I can’t possible guess at what scent won’t give someone a headache or that they would like and scentless is well, just too utilitarianly personal.

    4. Collie*

      Do they get lunch from a particular spot nearby? Maybe a gift certificate there? Stationery with their initial? USB mug warmer if they drink coffee/tea? Tea selection? Mug with chocolate?

      1. not really a lurker anymore*

        I found a set of 3 wooden ornaments to paint at a well known toy store (they have an issue with the letter ‘r’) for $4.99. I got both different sets and will be painting them with the kids this weekend. But it’s not a gift card and it’s something different.

      1. Ama*

        Yup, mugs are my go-to. Easy to find, relatively inexpensive, and almost everyone can find a use for it (even if they just put pencils in it or something).

        1. Pineapple Incident*

          That’s the truth- even us not-coffee-drinkers like mugs. I’m too cheap to buy wine glasses and use my fun ones for that. My favorite mug is one from “Initech” with the company logo.

    7. SaaSyPaaS*

      What’s your price limit? I’d try to set aside your personal feelings about your Secret Santa match and buy something this person might like. Maybe a set of headphones for the office, a bottle of wine, a new coffee mug, etc. Maybe a “workplace care package” with a new mug, hot chocolate, hand sanitizer, gum or mints, or whatever may help your SS match be less disgusting?

    8. Girasol*

      Go to a big box store like Target. They’ll have displays of bargain priced popular gift items ready to pick up and go: fancy flashlights, mug sets, thermoses, and the like, all nicely packaged for holiday giving. There’s a whole industry designing for the situation of obligatory gifts for people you don’t know. They’re acceptable and so bland that they send no awkward messages.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        I was just at Target yesterday. They have amazing deals going on for holiday gifts- if you use their free Cartwheel app, you can get a coupon added to the Ghirardelli chocolate gift set- it’s an assorted variety of wrapped chocolates. Starting price is around $10. I got that for an in-law I’m not the biggest fan of. Go go go!

    9. NASA*

      Did we get the same SS? :)

      Same rule at our office too, no gift cards. What did BEC co-worker who is my SS ask for? A gift card. Lawd have mercy, you haven’t done sh-t in months and on top of that you can’t follow simple instructions.

      Thankfully she just put in her two weeks. BYE FELICIA!

      Anyway, yes based on the amount keep it as generic as possible. Travel mug, socks, gloves, a scarf, bookmarks, chocolate, tea, tea infuser.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The idea works for me. [snickering]

          Seriously, OP, take the high road. You won’t regret it.

    11. Ayla K*

      I’ve got this one! May be too nice if the coworker in question is a real BEC, but this is my go-to for Secret Santas/White Elephants/etc. A gift-wrap kit! Go to the Dollar Store/Walmart/Target and pick up a small roll of wrapping paper (they often have ones that are half the length of the usuals), a box of ribbons, some tape and scissors. It’s super useful – everyone needs more gift wrap! – and fun to buy. And it’s not too personal.

      If you hate that idea, just get them some crackers.

      1. Artemesia*

        You know that BEC is not necessarily a secret code; lots of people including this gift recipient probably are aware of it.

        1. Cristina in England*

          Yes but no one likes to think of themselves as the annoying person, so I can imagine it would be surprisingly easy to miss.

    12. Annie Mouse*

      I’ve bought a scarf (or actually a really lovely snood) for one secret santa, and got a set of coffee, mug and suitable cake bites (recipient was gluten and dairy free) for a colleague who loved it and it definitely didn’t break the bank.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I got a giant 1kg box of chocolates 2 years in a row. (The local supermarket had them on offer) Knowing what the mug fairy is like in my current office, mugs/glasses would be a good idea.

  29. Mockingjay*

    So, first hurdle at New Job. (I say hurdle, not obstacle, because I know I can get over it, with help!)

    When my manager offered me the new project, he assumed I have some project management skills that I don’t. (Not sure where he got that from?) I was asked to be the lead tech writer, coordinate assignments among the new team members, track deliverables, and run the SharePoint library. Perfect.

    Unbeknownst to me, Manager also signed me up for PM support: doing the project schedule, not only for the internal team, but for the entire multiyear effort; doing the monthly reporting; and handling the financials. Now, the overall big program has several project analysts doing these type of tasks (and doing them very well). I assumed one of them would be assigned to our new project. Hmm.

    I met with my manager last week (this was part of the scheduling meeting I mentioned in the How to speak “boss” thread on Monday). The answer was to learn MS Project, in a hurry.

    I am not adverse to learning new skills; I welcome these opportunities. I do have concerns about the amount of time these additional duties will take – both to learn and to do. The engineering writing support is already a full-time task. PM support is at least a half-time task right now; when the project goes into production in another year, it will need full-time support.

    My interim solution is to learn what I can, quickly (I’ve already started online training), and also speak to the other team members about what they can help with. Some of these tasks should be theirs, anyway. The systems engineer should be doing the overall project schedule. The project lead should be doing the monthly reporting and financials in coordination with one of the analysts.

    Am I right to push back? Alison always recommends the conversation: “I can do A and B, but that will impact C and D. What do you want to trade off?” Unfortunately the answer seems to be that I do it all, which is not sustainable.

    I have the feeling that my manager painted himself in a corner by representing me to the customer as something that I’m not.

    TL/DR: Manager promoted me into a role, with extra duties that I’m not trained for. How do I approach him to figure out how to staff the new project adequately? (New project does have limited funds available).

    1. Jen RO*

      It sounds sucky :( I don’t think there is much you can do here except come up with some numbers – documenting X Y Z will take me n man-days, the PM tasks will take me m man-days, and I only have p <n+m man-days available; who can help me handle all this?

      (As another tech writer without project management skills, this sounds like the opposite of fun.)

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      I’m also learning Microsoft Projects in my new job. What online training have you been using? I’ve found some good videos on YouTube that explain the basics, so I’m able to do a very, very rudimentary project plan, but not much more than that. At this point, that’s all I need so I’m OK for now, but I’d like to learn more.

      1. Hillary*

        Fast Forward MBA in Project Management is a great book – we even used it in my MBA project management class. I don’t think I’ve worked at any company without a couple copies floating around. He takes you through smaller projects that are easy to relate to, looking at both the project management process and MS Project software.

    3. Red lines with wine*

      Tech writer here. I had this happen to me – my boss said that everything’s a priority and must get done. Period.

      So, I put the “If I do A and B, C and D will suffer and Z won’t get done at all” in an email to my boss as CYA. If it were me in your situation, I’d also explain what tasks you’re delegating to whom. I’d give your boss regular updates on what is and is not getting done because you now have 1.5 jobs. And if your team fails, you have a record of it. Also, I’d BCC your home email juuuuuuuust in case.

      Learn MS Project, focus on the PM role while delegating as much as you can, and let the chips fall where they may. Ultimately, this will be on your boss for not setting you up for success.

      1. Lucy Westenra*

        I agree, esp. about the CYA. Document. Everything. Numbers, reports, progress, everything. That way if you come under scrutiny later you can point to your documentation, which clearly shows that you were given an impossible job. As far as accomplishing that impossible job, all I can say is that I sense caffeine and overtime in your future. Also, reach out to people inside and outside your company who do project management and see if they have any tips. A little advice can go a long way.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      This is why I’m not applying to tech writing jobs. They want people who can do everything AND are SMEs in whatever the company does. Stupid, because I’m a writer / editor, not an SME and I did huge amounts of copy editing in a subject I knew nothing about for nearly four years (sadly, I have nothing to show for it because proprietary material).

      Ugh, I’m glad you posted this. I guess it might be a good thing for me to find a sale on this software and try to learn it.

  30. Stephanie*

    First semester of grad school done! I still read here, I promise! Actually, it hasn’t been that crazy, just by the time I remember to read the posts, there are hundreds of comments already.

    Also, some positive news on the summer job search (my program’s two years)–in the final stages in an interview process. Filling out the official employment application now.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Glad to hear you made it through Sem1 and are still around here! Good luck on your summer job search. Fingers crossed for you.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Congratulations on finishing your first semester and sending you good vibes in your interview process!!

  31. LO*

    It’s been a wild month and a half for me.

    On November 1st, I went to the emergency room for surgery to treat a life threatening infection. I also found out I’m diabetic on this hospital visit. After a 4 day stay at the hospital, I was put on bed rest for the remainder of November and part of this month for recovery from the surgery and wound healing and getting my blood sugar levels under control.

    The job that I hate and had anxiety just thinking about going back to, laid me off after I expressed interest in going back. (I did not qualify for FMLA leave, so that left the door open.) I sat in a meeting with my former bosses who felt it appropriate to lecture me about my “absences” and remind me about how few people they have to cover my position and that they had to hire someone since I was gone.

    But the bright side is I never have to go back to this awful place, I have all my fingers toes still attached, and I have the chance to take Alison’s great job search advice and apply it to find a new job for 2017. I have 3 interviews scheduled for the next week and am feeling optimistic about my chances at landing something by January.

    Life sometimes gives you a kick in the ass, but I’ve wiped off the dust and am going to do everything in my power to bounce back!

    2. zora*

      Wow, those people are &#%^$)@$#’s, I’m sorry you had to deal with them. But YAY for never having to go back and best of luck in finding something a bajillion times better!

    3. Artemesia*

      I would be annoyed as a boss with a frequently absent employee out for vague reasons repeatedly. Someone who was hospitalized for a life threatening infection and then our to recover? Where do these yoyos come from? Glad you see the positives in the layoff though — sounds like a great place to escape from.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Sometimes I think our bodies DO know whats best for us and if you are in a bad place, throws a handy little wrench. Take it as a giant red flag that you need to do the right thing for your health, because it truly is all you’ve got.

      Something similar happened to me this year due to all the stress from my last workplace (herniated disk but something is impinging on my spinal cord so one leg doesn’t function right and I am waiting on neurosurgery appt now). I considered taking a new position at the old company that wore me down physically and mentally, but in the end went with a different org – its so much calmer, quieter, organized, sane, AND they are fully stress and posture supportive with bouncy sitting balls everywhere, posture assessors, very nice ergonomic chairs, telecommuting supportive etc. Its night and day and will give me the space to heal (this injury is going to probably take a year to recover from). Consider your options carefully, but I bet you land in a supportive place as well!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You have a great attitude and I am sure that will show and you will be hired quickly.

      I am glad you got away from these idiots you mention here, but I am sorry it was in such an abrupt, life impacting manner.

  32. justsomeone*

    There was a thread a while back about going into Technical Writing and I am so glad for it – I just registered for a tech writing certificate through a local college. AND I got my company to pay for half of it, since there’s a surging need for that skill set here, and it ties reasonably well into my current communications position.

    That being said, I hope to search for a new position soonish after getting my cert – other than Technical Writer, what are other job titles to look for?

    1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I would suggest the following:
      Content writer
      Business Analyst-may involve other aspects of project management but I’m a business analyst and I do a lot of technical writing as part of my job. Just depends on if you want to do 100% technical writing or are interested in doing some project management as well.

      1. justsomeone*

        Actually, that might be perfect – I’ve always been interested in project management but haven’t figured out how to make that switch. I’ll look for business analyst roles. Thanks!

        1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

          Good luck! That’s exactly why I took my business analyst role! My boyfriend recently got a job as content writer and he will also be working on projects but I don’t know that he will be managing them. More a contributor. Though it will probably eventually lead him into a more project focused role down the line.

    2. Red lines with wine*

      Here are the search keywords I suggest:

      Technical editor
      Editor/editing
      Information architect
      Information designer
      Information developer
      Content manager
      Content strategist
      Content curator
      Communication manager
      Communication director
      Communications specialist
      Consultant
      Documentation
      Publishing

      1. NoMoreMrFixit*

        instructional designer
        course content developer
        e-learning developer/specialist
        Yes, these require some additional study in adult education but it can be worth it. I’ve also seen where tech writers deliver training in-class as well as online.

        From a marketing/PR angle there’s copywriter/copy editor too if you have some background in that area.

  33. Adlib*

    Discovering that my usually detailed and awesome team lead left a LOT undone after her last day last week. I have high regard for her, but this all seems very out of character for her. She was burned out, but it still leaves me in a lurch. I have a rule of not pestering people after they leave even if we personally talk. Still, I’m just bummed/really put out.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Ugh. My former teammate did that when she left. There were a number of tasks she promised to complete and then… poof, she was gone and there was a bunch of stuff left hanging. It certainly altered my impression of her.

      1. Adlib*

        That’s pretty much where I’m at. I at least expected her to tell me, “Oh by the way, I ran out of time to do all of this stuff, but…” and then give me a quick jumping off point or something so that I could take over at least with some information. To be fair, everyone bugged out when they heard she was leaving and suddenly wanted ALL THE THINGS from her. (They need to trust me a little more, but that’s an ongoing thing.)

    2. NarrowDoorways*

      Could it be a misunderstanding?

      I know when I went on vacation in October, my boss spent the week complaining that “Narrow PROMISED to schedule A and B for the whole week she’s out and DIDN’T.” And I came back and heard about it, and said, “Oh you misunderstood. I did schedule A and B for Monday, but it’s impossible to schedule further out than than so I put the material together over here and emailed you. See the email I sent before I left?”

      Or the lead was just burned out and it’s all very disappointing… :'(

      1. Adlib*

        It could be, but I am trying not to bug her now that she’s out and starting her new job. (I know I would be really annoyed if people did that to me.) It’s not looking good since my new boss (formerly my grandboss) asked me for stuff I thought he would have from her.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      From what you’ve said, she was burnt out but still high performing, had a new job to go to, was (presumably) working out a notice period, *and* had everybody dumping a giant pile of new tasks on her to be finished before she left. I can completely see a reasonable person deciding that they’ll work conscientiously from 9-5 during the notice period, get what they can done, and leave the rest, particularly if they were looking for a new job in part *because* they were burning out.

      It would be nice if she had said “There’s no way I can do this – give me a list of priorities and I’ll do what I can”. But in a burn-out situation, there has often been past attempts to do this without success.

  34. Mints*

    I found out that one of the managers at my company sends out a weekly email with “super stars” & “rising stars” employees. Which is probably cheesy but not terrible. HOWEVER, she rates every employee in her department (about a half dozen) including “falling stars” if they’re doing poorly this week.

    I’m not involved at all (and I’m fairly certain the manager’s boss knows). I just heard about this and had a “yikes” reaction and thought I’d share on the open thread for y’all to share in the “yikes.”

    3. Nico m*

      Yikes

      Thats really stupid

      The publicness is stupid

      The judginess is stupid

      The weekliness of the judginess is stupid

      The

    4. Manders*

      Yikes indeed. I’d be eyeing the exits if I was publicly called out as a “falling star” every time I had an off week.

    5. Leatherwings*

      Are you sure your manager isn’t a teacher and her reports aren’t third graders? Because that’s the only acceptable scenario for that nonsense. I mean, I’d even be pissed if a teacher was doing that to my kid, but yikes.

      1. Mints*

        Yeah I think the “super star” thing is juvenile but not terrible, but “falling star” would be terrible for kids too

      1. Pearly Girl*

        Picture the scene from Love Actually and it will be far more enjoyable. Unless you hate Christmas.

    9. Windchime*

      At my previous job, our managers decided that our overworked and stressed-out team needed a “failure wall”. It was presented as if it was an awesome thing; the idea was that if we aren’t failing sometimes, we aren’t innovating. So the idea was that, if you worked on something and it failed or didn’t work, you would post it on the failure wall for all to see. Which would be OK (I guess?) if we had healthy environment, but the managers ruled by fear and intimidation, and would crack down on any project that went over the estimate or had problems.

      So yeah. They’d have probably done Falling Stars, too, except it didn’t occur to them.

  35. Gene*

    My primary work vehicle since I started here over 25 years ago has died. Well, at least they aren’t going to fix it this time. So a new work truck is going to be ordered for us. It will be nice to have a new rig, but I’ll miss it. My butt has spent a lot of miles in that seat.

    On a better note, everything that has to be done this month is done. A three-day week next week, a five-day weekend, then two four-day weeks in a row. I could get used to this.

    1. Mockingjay*

      If you have a bulletin board, maybe you can post pictures of the truck over the years, as a fond farewell and retrospective?

      1. Gene*

        The only appearance change was when it got a chrome bumper to replace the body-color one after I hit another vehicle with it. So its photo will go up on the board, and I kept the tag from one set of keys.

        It will be nice to have air conditioning and cruise control, though.

    2. One Handed Typist*

      Oh man, after 25 years that seat is shaped like your butt. Now you have to break a new seat in! However, think about the new upgrades you’ll have.

  36. AMT*

    I was reading over the AAM archive and happened on a column that made me think about a former workplace. The column I’m thinking about had a much different situation, but relevant: https://www.askamanager.org/2014/08/my-boss-makes-us-all-keep-kosher-for-passover.html

    Anyway, I worked briefly at a nonprofit that prohibited employees who were not observant Jews from bringing food into the office during Passover. This caused inconvenience and expense for non-Jewish employees, who were basically forced to eat out. Am I right in thinking this was technically illegal? Would it have been legal for them to say “non-Kosher for Passover food is prohibited in this office” rather than “only observant Jews can bring food”?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yes, and yes.

      However, the stringency of kosher-for-passover food would still have risen to a level that meant that most non-observant employees would eat out. This is one of those places where, for me, it’s a question of “It’s a week. They’re doing the best they can the rest of the year, this is a big thing in their religion, let them have it.”

      (I am a bacon-eating Jewish-by-family-culture woman in a company whose owners are Orthodox Jewish. They work hard to overlook all sorts of stuff, but some stuff really falls under “a bridge too far” for them)

      1. Cat*

        Eh, forcing your employees to incur extra costs really doesn’t seem right to me. Catering in a kosher for passover lunch for everyone seems like a better solution to me . . . .

        1. animaniactoo*

          They incur lots of extra costs by paying our salaries to close for the high holidays (they pay everyone, including non-exempt employees). I can stand a week’s worth of having to pay some extra for my food.

          And truly, so many non-observant people are not going to be happy with what might be available at a kfp lunch. Lack of any form of bread or any other leavened item to start with. Trying to cater to people’s tastes would be such a headache within the restrictions, that it’s a nice idea in theory and in practice is unlikely to be a success.

    2. Natalie*

      I would think so, provided they were big enough for the law to apply (15 employees or more). It’s pretty clearly singling people out based on religion, rather than behavior.

    3. Junior Dev*

      IANAL but yeah, if they were really making the call based entirely on your religious affiliation that sounds like discrimination. (Why did they even know everyone’s religion?!?!?)

  37. Pixel*

    I’m a strong candidate for a one-person-department position in a small company. The phone interview included questions such as “how do you approach messy files?” and “how do you work with constant interruptions?”, as they don’t have an admin and if the two other people I will share an office with are out, I’ll be covering the phones and answering the door. Should this be a deal-breaker? The position actually has a lot of responsibilities, ranging from low-level data entry to higher level tax and financial stuff, the salary is a big step from where I am right now, and the location is great, and seems like a fantastic second job after my first entry level job that I have right now.

    1. CM*

      Well, how do you feel about those things? It sounds like they’re telling you this is a chaotic environment. If you can deal well with chaos, you’ll probably be a good fit (and you can emphasize this in your in-person interview). If messiness and interruptions (and probably poor organization, last-minute requests, putting out fires, etc.) would drive you crazy, this probably is not the job for you.

      1. Pixel*

        Honestly? Not that much. I’m an accountant, and can deal with messy files like the best of them – it’s actually very gratifying to start with a terrible file and end up with everything reconciled beautifully. Weirdly enough, when crazy hits the fan, such as personal taxes and T-slip seasons, I can deal with constant interjections and putting out fires, as long as they’re directly related to my job and not general office stuff – and in public practice, putting out fires is essentially part of the job. On the other hand, I had to cover the phone and front desk on a few occasions when all our admin staff was away, and was not a happy camper.

    2. Karanda Baywood*

      It might feel chaotic to them but may be less chaotic that it sounds, too… especially after someone (like you!) comes in and streamlines activities. Can you ask some follow-up questions to clarify day-to-day tasks?

      1. Pixel*

        I’ll definitely do that! In-person interview is next week, and I will ask the interviewer for more details on how often am I expected to do general admin.

    3. zora*

      For a second job, that’s probably not a deal-breaker. I wouldn’t like a job like that now, but I’m mid-career, I had jobs like that earlier in my life.

      I would, however, advise asking some more questions about how coverage works to be prepared. It doesn’t sound like you would be the only one responsible for answering phones/door, but I would ask that directly to clarify. And then ask about how much flexibility there is for you to take time off, leave early/come late for appointments, etc. It sounds like there are three of you there, and you would have to coordinate with each other to make sure there is coverage, but ask if there is a seniority system, or how it is decided who gets time off for holidays, etc. And, I would also ask about how much of the time you will be the only one providing coverage. It’s just good to get a sense of whether they really want it to work for everyone, or if you will be pulled away from your job a lot to handle these other things.

      I had a similar list of questions when interviewing for a job where I would be the only admin at my location, but they were very forthcoming about how the admin team across the country handles coverage for each other, so I am able to take time off when needed without it being a huge hardship. And the main phone line here isn’t really used, so I’m not answering phones all day, I get a couple calls per week, if that. It’s nice to not be 100% chained to my desk, and I can even work from home once in a while if I really need to.

      1. Pixel*

        Thank you so much – I actually wrote down your list of questions. I’m concerned about spending the day covering the front desk and phones, and only getting to my actual designated accounting job at 4pm.

        1. zora*

          yeah, this is definitely something to pay attention to, and to track if it starts to feel like it’s happening more and more, so you can go to your boss with specific numbers and ask to revisit. Just because it’s been clear before you took the job that this was part of it, if it starts to impact your primary job duties, it’s perfectly reasonable to revisit or to figure out with your boss if there are small adjustments that can be made to make sure your job is getting done! Don’t wait until you start dropping the ball on your job, if you wait too long to bring it up to your boss, it could bite you in the ass. Especially since it sounds like your boss will not be on site with you, make sure you keep them in the loop on how things are going periodically.

          Good luck, hope it all goes well, and becomes a good stepping stone into a non-front-desk-related job! ;o)

    4. BRR*

      It’s not a universal deal breaker but they gave you a clear picture of what it will be like. It could easily be a potential deal breaker for many people.

      1. Pixel*

        I’ll be wiser next week after the in-person interview. If they offer generous benefits and decent time off then it makes the admin coverage pill easier to swallow – or so I’d like to think

    5. AliceBD*

      Definitely see how often you’ll be expected to do things. In my current position I have some specialized knowledge that we get calls from the public about. It is not in my everyday job description, but when the person whose job it is is out of the office, I take over and field the calls. I’m not expected to do it if she’s just out for the afternoon for the doctor or something, so it works out to be about 3-4 weeks total a year, split up mostly into a few days at a time — her vacation time (when it doesn’t overlap with my vacation time), plus when she has her quarterly trips to another location of ours and is in meetings all day. I would not want to do it as my main job, for it’s fine 4 weeks a year.

  38. Mints*

    So I have a question for the group. My friend started a new job that’s going pretty well. The structure of the job is that he’s primarily fixing stuff for a group. I’ll pretend like a mechanic, and he has a regional fleet of trucks he’s in charge of. There are some days where everything is falling apart and he works on several trucks that are complicated and he works a lot of overtime. There are some days / weeks where everything hums along and he doesn’t have much to do. There are some maintenence opportunities but it’s still pretty much a half week. He also works from home when he’s not out on calls, so he might be playing video games all day with his phone nearby waiting for calls.

    When he started, the other employees assigned to other groups told him they always claim 40 hours every week regardless if they work more or less. I know that legally, the answer is they need to claim overtime. But the employees prefer having 40 hours to count on, and it ends up being close enough in the long run that this is what they prefer over nickel and diming in either direction. It’s also the kind of job where they’ll answer ten minute calls all the time outside of normal hours and those are annoying to track anyway. I don’t know if management doesn’t know or is looking the other way.

    What do you guys think? I think this is ethically not a problem (even though I realize it’s not legal). My friend fwiw, felt really guilty about it and that’s why he brought it up.

    1. WS*

      My company sort of works like this. We’re all hourly and everyone typically claims 40 hours, unless they took unpaid time off or worked a noticeable amount of overtime. No one tracks time for calls or emails outside of normal business hours, but our managers are also really lenient on letting us manage our own time during the work day. If you want to leave the office to grab lunch or run a quick errand you’re allowed to take that time paid, because the understanding is that people are putting in time for calls/emails outside of normal work hours so over the course of a week it all evens out.

      My bosses were really explicit about this when I was hired, though, so that uncertainty about “if management doesn’t know or is looking the other way” doesn’t really apply to my situation. And we have a lot of freedom with what hours we work- if someone knows that they’re going to hit 40 hours around, say, 1pm on a Friday because they worked longer days earlier in the week, we’re allowed to take off at 1pm to avoid putting in overtime. But on the flip side if Friday rolls around and you need to stay late again, you can claim overtime without a problem (just with a gentle reminder to avoid working overtime as much as possible).

      It’s a set-up that works for my office, but I’d be uncomfortable taking this approach anywhere where it wasn’t explicitly okayed by my boss.

      1. Mints*

        Yeah the uncertainty is mostly mine, as a second hand person. I think at the time he asked all his coworkers but I’m not sure if he’s asked his boss since then.
        Thanks!

    2. jamlady*

      Eh, this is the norm in my field, where our techs work a ton of unofficial overtime and keep track of it so they can use it for credit hours (all unofficial). I never really cared when I was at that level because a) I couldn’t do my job in just 8 hrs a day (CA) and b) I loved using the comp time. When I moved up to mid-level (not a manager), I was salaried and it was the same deal for the techs. Only the company I was with never let them use the unofficial comp time. I pushed my manager to push the big bosses on this issue, but it went no where, and my manager and I end both ended up quitting with in weeks of each other (for that reason and many other sketchy things). Now that I’m a manager, I never let my techs works overtime and I work for a company that would never follow the sketchy norm of my field (we’re the first Field specialists they’ve ever had, so I just never told them about the norms).

      Long story short, I’ve been there and I didn’t care because I wasn’t overworked, but then I saw it burn someone else who I really cared about, and I’m really strict about following the law now that I’m a manager. I think it’s sketchy, but I also think the 8hr a day thing in CA put a lot of companies in our field in a bad spot. It wasn’t much of an issue when I worked in TX.

      1. Mints*

        I am in California, good call! I know this is in favor of employees, but if I work 7 hours one day then 9 hours the next day I don’t really feel like I should get paid more than a coworker who worked 8 & 8. (I do think mandatory over time is a good law but at a higher threshold.) That’s probably a big detail, you’re right

        1. jamlady*

          I am totally in favor of 40 hr weeks or even 80 hr pay periods – we are government contractors and the 80 hr pay period/flex time thing works really well for them. I noticed another contract (all techs) are pulling unofficial 4/10s – they seriously can’t do their job in 8 hours! But the gov client never allows them to work more than 40 a week. I think if/when the company starts taking serious advantage, that’s when the legality of it should be brought up (if not beforehand, because I totally get people being uncomfortable with fudging timesheets).

    3. Clever Name*

      Well, is he exempt or nonexempt? Is he paid hourly or salaried? If he’s salaried exempt, this sounds okay to me, not being a lawyer. If he has to track hours he works and/or is eligible for overtime, this might not be okay.

  39. Down Home Auditor in SC*

    Small celebratory post! I had a rather uncomfortable meeting this week with my new supervisor, who was formerly a peer until 2 weeks ago… I revealed some things that had gone on before she was our supervisor, and was pretty frank about the fact that I’m generally disengaged with our ‘grand-boss’ level of management in our department. She took everything in stride and it was a very productive discussion. The best part? I DIDN’T CRY!!!! I’m a happy/mad/sad crier, and we were discussing some things that had happened with our clients recently that felt very much like a personal attack on me, and I did nearly tear up a couple of times, but I held it in. I’m 27, and have held professional positions since graduation in 2011, and I still struggle with maintaining my composure in the workplace (whether the issue is professional or personal), so it’s been something I’ve been actively working and learning to manage. :-)

    1. CM*

      Not crying during a difficult conversation is really hard. (If you are a crier.) Congratulations, and I’m glad the discussion was positive!

  40. Manders*

    This is something I’ve been curious about for a while now: papers keep publishing articles about how my generation isn’t hitting work and income-related milestones at the “right” times, but there’s rarely any discussion of when previous generations actually hit those milestones (and whether there were similar moral panics about Kids These Days doing everything at the wrong time). Informal poll time?

    * What generation are you considered a part of?
    * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
    * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
    * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
    * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
    * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
    * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
    * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
    * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
    * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?

    1. Anon for surveys*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Technically Millennial, but I’m Oregon Trail – that weird middle
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      First job – at 15. First full time job – when I graduated high school. In a law office
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      No
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      Still haven’t had that
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      This is on and off depending on what was going on – I moved out at 19, back in, back out, back in. I haven’t lived with a parent out of necessity in 8ish years. I just bought my first home, at 32, and needed help to do so
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      I probably could have but never did
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      Just bought my first home this year – had to have a higher interest rate to get a lower DP amount and still needed help
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      I have had insurance on my own since I was 22
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      Yes – absolutely. All of it
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      No my parents get it and are very helpful.

      1. Anon for surveys*

        I know I am not a previous generation technically, but I am that weird kind of Gen X kind of Millennial so I thought I would share

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Lol to the “Oregon Trail” generation — me too. So:

        * What generation are you considered a part of?

        Between Gen X and Gen Y (born in 1979).

        * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?

        I got my first job with a regular paycheck (i.e. not babysitting or raking leaves or whatever) when I was 15. My first full-time job came right after college; I stayed at the part-time job I’d had during college and was promoted into a full-time role.

        * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?

        No. I happen to grow up/go to college in a metropolitan area that has been outperforming the job market of the country overall.

        * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?

        My second job after grad school (so around age 30), after the organization moved into a new building, I had an office with a door. That’s the only time, though; my next job was working from home and now I have a cube.

        * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?

        I probably could have moved out after college, but I was saving up for grad school. I got my first apartment on my own after grad school (when I was 26 or so).

        * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?

        When I was 26. I haven’t had roommates since finishing grad school.

        * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?

        My husband and I bought a house when we were 34 (him) and 36 (me). 11 years after I finished grad school; 1 year after he finished business school. If I were single I couldn’t afford to buy — yay for husbands with lucrative careers.

        * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?

        First job after grad school (age 26).

        * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?

        Kids, yes. I still don’t really feel like we can afford it. We make plenty of money at this point, but the expense of child care would be financially devastating for us.

        * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?

        No, I never got that kind of static from real people in my life. I chose a career that isn’t well-paid, so many of my peers were “outpacing” me, but that was to be expected. And, yeah, of course there’s nobody with a nonprofit lifestyle in the media.

      3. Isben Takes Tea*

        The Oregon Trail Generation is the perfect descriptor–technically Millennials, but we remember before there was the Interwebz. I will steal this henceforth!

        1. zora*

          One blogger named it “Generation Catalano” (after Jordan Catalano from My So-Called Life), and I feel like that’s super apt for me ;o)

    2. Hannah*

      *Millennial (born in 87)
      *First real full time job was when I was 24, 6 months graduating college, I was a paralegal at a law firm
      *No, I didn’t feel pressured. I lived in a suburb of Dallas – Fort Worth, lots of opportunities
      *My paralegal position had an office with a door
      *I was paying my own rent after college, working part time at a law firm and part time at a busy bar on the weekends
      *I lived alone during my first full time job
      *I could have bought a house with my second full time job, my salary jumped from 37 – 52k
      *I had benefits during my first full time job
      *I don’t want kids and marriage isn’t a rush for me
      *I feel like I have advanced more in my career/income than most if not all of my friends who are my age. I’ve always been lucky and have known the right people. I’m also not afraid to take risks, apply for new positions, and negotiate salary.

    3. all aboard the anon train*

      1. Millennial (older end, since I’m 30)

      2. I was 14 and it was at McDonalds. Part-time during the school year, but I worked full-time during the summer months. My first non-retail and non-part-time job was right after I graduated college. I worked at least two jobs throughout high school and college.

      3. I knew even when I was in high school that I wouldn’t stay in my hometown. The only good jobs there are public service. Unfortunately, I graduated college in 2008 when the economy exploded and couldn’t find a job, so I was forced to move back to my hometown. But everyone knew the goods jobs were in the city.

      4. Never. I had a cube with a sliding door, though. I was 27. My last two companies moved from cubes and offices to open office space.

      5. 24. Though, I had to pick up a second part-time job in addition to my full-time one to pay for rent + bills + loans.

      6. 24. See above. I wanted to live alone, so I picked up a second part-time job and also did freelancing on the side so I could live alone.

      7. Never. I’m still bitter about it. I live in one of the most expensive cities in the US for housing. If I wanted a chance to buy anything, I’d have to go about 1.5 – 2 hours outside the city. I grew up in the sticks and was miserable, so I don’t want to live or buy there. Based on income, debt, and housing prices, there’s no way I’ll ever be able to afford on my salary alone. There aren’t many starter condos or houses in my city since lately it’s all luxury condos. Or the starter homes are in areas with no public transit and I can’t afford a car (parking spaces can go for half a million), let alone a mortgage and a car.

      8. Second full-time job. My first, as an admin in a doctor’s office, didn’t have either. I get nervous when I read those articles that say, “you should have X much in your 401K by 30” and I don’t have nearly that much. I put in the max percentage the company will match.

      9. I don’t plan to get married and can’t have kids, but I’ve always thought that if I did want either of those things, there’s no way I could afford them. But that’s my salary alone. A partner’s salary with mine, maybe. Even then, marriage would be city hall and that’s it. I don’t have the money for a big ceremony (and wouldn’t want it either).

      10. My parents did in the beginning, but they’re both in public service jobs (police and teacher), so they quickly realized that the private sector is really different in terms of money and stability. They’re cool about me not getting married or having kids, but they argue with me about my desire to buy a condo in the city (they think I should go to the suburbs). My dad does like to try to convince me to get a job with a pension instead of a 401K, though.

      I do feel like my peers are progressing at a different pace, but I have to remind myself that they have partners and two incomes makes certain things easier. I’m doing everything on one income and in an expensive city, so there’s a difference to my friends who have two large incomes in the city or two normal incomes in the suburbs. I’ve rarely seen depictions of people with my lifestyle in the media. I’d like to know how people who make my salary and live in expensive cities can afford to go to bars and clubs and out to eat every night, but never have student debt or worry about rent or bills (unless it’s a Very Special Episode or a one time episode storyline). I think maybe Broad City has been the most accurate in some respects, but other than that, I can’t think of many.

    4. Yas Queen*

      1. “Millennial” (ugh), now age 30
      2. First part-time job at age 14, various full-time seasonal jobs/internships from age 17 to 22, first permanent full-time job at 23
      3. Yes. After college, ~2009, the job market for my industry was not good in my area. But I wanted to get out of the region for non-job-related reasons also.
      4. No office yet. Wish otherwise due to suspected misophonia.
      5. First moved out for about 7 months at age 21, moved out permanently at age 23 when relocated for FT job.
      6. Never had roommates.
      7. Bought first house at age 28
      8. Health insurance & 401k & pension at age 23, 1st FT job
      9. Yes
      10. No, thankfully. Yes.

    5. Hermione*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millennial – born late 80’s.
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? First job at 14, first full-time job, 22.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? N/A I live in a major city in the US
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? First full-time job at 22.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? I could have stably done so at 23, but with scrimping, probably at 19.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? 27
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Hahahahaha we’ll see.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 22
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Yes, I am currently (but due to SO’s milestones, not mine).
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? No. Somewhat – my closest friends are all weirdly successful in their fields. It does annoy me that in the media, even the low-class apartments seem glamorous unlike real life. Otherwise, I feel appropriately represented.

    6. Tris Prior*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Generation X

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      First job at 16. First full-time job at 21 – was hired directly from an internship I had during senior year of college.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      No, I was from a big city. Actually had to move to a smaller town for my first job (not uncommon in print journalism).

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      Never.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      I had to at 21, as my first full-time job was in the town I went to college in.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      Also at 21, but again, small town. Rent was $400/month.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      Bought a condo at 36. Lost it at 42. :(

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      I had insurance at my first job at 21. 401k – I think in my mid-20s, but by then I’d moved back to the city and my pay was so low, I couldn’t afford to contribute and still eat. Have never had a job with a pension.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      I chose not to have kids because I don’t see how I could support them financially.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      My parents thought I was doing well. I looked around at my peers and it seemed like I was very underpaid until probably my mid-30s, but that has more to do with the field I chose (journalism) than my generation. I did roll my eyes at TV shows and movies that showed journalists having huge apartments and living fancy lives.

    7. Manders*

      I should also answer my own questions:

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Millennial, born in 1989.

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      I got my first job the summer after high school. My first full-time job was after I graduated from college at 21; it took about 6 months to find steady work.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      Yes. I moved from Nashville to Seattle, partially to follow my partner, but there were also way more jobs available in Seattle when I graduated in 2011.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      I’ve never had one, and in my industry, it’s possible that I never will.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      I moved out right after college. I have always split rent 50/50 with my partner.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      I couldn’t afford that now. I’m not sure if I ever would be able to do that without moving far outside Seattle city limits.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      I can’t really afford it now, but I might buy one eventually with a lot of help from my partner and parents.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      About 6 months after graduation. Until then, I was freelancing and I was on my parents’ health insurance.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      Most definitely. I still absolutely cannot afford to have kids in my area–daycare alone would be more than my salary, and we don’t even have space in the apartment for a crib. I’ll have kids in my late 30s, if I ever have them. I’m getting married earlier than most of my peers at 27–I would have delayed it longer, but one of my close family members is ill and I wanted to have a ceremony while she is able to attend.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers were progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      My parents have been good about not criticizing my lifestyle, but some older people I’ve known through work have said weird things about my generation. Seattle has a giant income gap between people in tech and people in other industries; I feel like I’m ahead of my peers outside the tech industry in terms of moving up in my career and building a nest egg, but I’m falling further and further behind my friends in tech. I often find myself annoyed by the way I see my generation depicted in the media: there are lots of people with creative jobs and giant apartments, and those characters rarely struggle with challenges that affect me and my friends like paying for healthcare or student loans.

    8. justsomeone*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millenial
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? First job at 16, full time job 5 months after graduating college, following a full-time summer internship.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Yes, but a lot of that was me wanting to leave my hometown behind.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Second full time job, 9 months after graduating college
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? 1 year after graduating college
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? 3 years after college
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Still can’t, but that’s because I live in Seattle.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? second full time job, 9mo after graduationg college.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yes, we were engaged for 2 years to wait for secure income before getting married. Still waiting on that higher income to buy a house. Kids aren’t on the table, but adoption might be if we can ever make enough to afford them.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? No, my parents have always trusted me to do what’s right and feasible for myself. Some of my peers are progressing faster, some slower, but I feel like that’s pretty normal. I feel like my generation is mis-portrayed in the media constantly. “Why don’t millennials buy cars and houses?” Because we can’t freaking afford them. Talk to me about my student loans and graduating into a business market that’s learned to function running lean! Even though the economy is recovering, businesses have learned to function with fewer bodies, so they’re not replacing all of the jobs they lost in the downturn.

    9. Not Karen*

      So…. there’s a giant problem with these so-called “milestones” (not just you, I hear them all the time): They assume there is one and only correct path in life that everyone should be on and wants to be on. Not everyone wants to work full-time, live alone, buy a house, get married, have kids, etc. Does that mean you aren’t progressing if you haven’t done those things? Some people want to do those things, but not in that order. Some people move out of their parents’ because they have to, not when they want to.

      1. Manders*

        Oh yeah, I’m definitely not trying to imply that these are things that everyone should want! I was trying to list the ones that are most commonly brought up in American media. I have a lot of friends from other cultures, and even my own culture, who’d give a very different list of milestones they’re personally working towards or consider meaningful accomplishments.

      2. Blue Anne*

        I think that’s part of the question, really. Notice the quotes around “right” time. i’m hitting most of these milestones at the “right” time, moreso than many of my friends – but a lot of that is because many of them have different priorities. These milestones aren’t milestones for them, they’re options.

    10. the gold digger*

      What generation are you considered a part of?
      – I think late Baby Boomer/early Gen X (born in 1963)

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      – I started babysitting when I was 11. Was certified as a lifeguard and got a job as a lifeguard at 15. Have worked pretty steadily since then, including temp and project work when I was laid off from a corporate job.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      – Many times.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      – First job out of college, one year after I started. I am now at a desk in an open space. My career has not gone as planned. :)

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      – I paid for my own college, so does 17 count? If not that, then when I graduated from college and had my first job, which paid $20K a year. I had $13K in student loans.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      – First job out of college. I had a studio apartment and almost no furniture. My mom and dad gave me my bed and I bought a used table from Aaron Rents for $30. I still have that table. It’s great.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      – I bought my first house in 2001, when I was however old – late 30s. I could have afforded it before then, but was dumb and kept renting.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      – First job out of college.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      – Nope. I married late just because it took a while to find someone I wanted to learn to share living space with.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      – Oh honey. My peers are CEOs and partners at major law firms and on the NYTimes bestseller list. I AM A FAILURE.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        “I am a failure.”

        We could start a club. ha! Or we could get a different yardstick to measure our successes.

        We don’t know until our last day what all our life story will touch. It ain’t over yet, GD. ;)

      2. Jean*

        If you start a Failures Club, please save me a seat. :-)
        I agree that it’s not over until it’s over and we never know exactly how we’re going to positively impact someone else’s life or lives.

    11. Natalie*

      Older Millenial (early 30s)

      First job was 13 is babysitting counts, 16 for a job with a W2. First full time job at 19 while going to college part time. First professional job with bennies at age 24, after graduating from college.

      I’ve had a solo office with a door once, but we were understaffed at the time.

      Ive never felt pressure to move away, but I grew up in the Twin Cities which has a strong economy and strong safety net.

      I moved out of family housing when I graduated from college, with roommates initially. I didn’t live alone until age 29, but that was because I lived with a partner prior. I probably could have afforded to around age 26.

      Bought my house at age 30, with family help for the downpayment.

      Marriage and kids were delayed for me because of the relationship I was in, but if that hadn’t happened we probably would have delayed for financial reasons. My husband and I are getting to the point where we need to fish or cut bait, and we’re strongly considering only having one kid because of our finances, even though I’d like 2 or 3.

      I’ve never felt pressure from my parents because they aren’t assholes and they can read a paper. I don’t personally feel super behind because I’ve been lucky to have family money, but many of my friends from college are not in the same position and it’s definitely a strain.

      I really don’t see any of our currents reality portrayed in the media, but I’m not a big TV watcher so it’s entirely possible it is and I’m just not seeing it.

    12. Pebbles*

      1. Gen X
      2. Not counting babysitting, first job was when I was 16. First full-time job was right out of college after interning with the company my senior year.
      3. No, I was born in a suburb of the large city I currently work in.
      4. Right out of college I moved into an apartment. Had all my stuff packed up at graduation, quick stop at my parents’ house for the rest of my things, and then went straight to the apartment.
      5. Lived alone to start with, moved in with a friend for almost 2 years to save some money, then moved out when I bought a townhouse.
      6. Bought previously mentioned townhouse when I was 25.
      7. No pension, but I have had health insurance and 401K with employer match since I was 21.
      8. Not because of a job/income. Married late because I hadn’t met DH yet, still no kids but getting to the point where it’s soon or never.
      9. ALL.THE.TIME. (from parents) First it was to get married, and that whole “no kids yet” I mentioned? I have two brothers, yet they’ve called me their “best hope for grandkids”. No pressure there.

    13. SophieChotek*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? (Gen X).
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? First job – worked part-time at church on Sundays and helped serve cookies (I think I was 15). First full-time job (depends a little on how one defines it — I worked 40 hrs/week at university library in the summer; otherwise after grad school was over, I worked FT in a coffee shop).
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Yes, but I’ve resisted because the COL is so much cheaper where I live compared to major metropolitan sites, it all evens out. Rather resigned myself to not working in the field that I got my degrees in.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Never
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? Well, this year (about 2 months ago) I finally got my own apartment. (I did live off-campus and away from my parents during grad school too.)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Well, this year (about 2 months ago) I finally got my own apartment. (I did live off-campus and away from my parents during grad school too.)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Never. I’ll probably die with student loans still unpaid first.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? When I worked FT at coffee shop we got health insurance and we could opt into a 401K; current job also has health insurance, but no pension or 401K.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Yes — still am.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? Yes — hitting them too slowly and compared to my peers (friends I went to grad school with) who have jobs in the field, and are married w/kids and have houses, I probably am.

    14. the_scientist*

      *Millennial (born in the late 80s)
      *First job at 16, first full-time job out of undergrad (not counting co-op terms) but went to grad school
      *Nope, I grew up in the GTA where most of the jobs in my field are
      *I had one at my first post graduate school job, but everyone had an office because of the way the space was set up so it doesn’t count :)
      *I struggled to do this after grad school despite being employed full time but made it work
      *Never- lived with roommates and then moved in with my partner
      *HAHAHA I live in Toronto, partner and I have been condo-hunting for 5 months without success
      *I left my first job out of grad school (after 1.5 years) to transition to a perm job with benefits and pension, which is a real rarity nowadays
      *Think about it all the time- partner and I make a good income but I have no idea how we’ll be able to pay a mortgage + daycare fees and still be able to save
      *I feel like my partner and I are in a better position than many of our peers. I have a lot of friends who are hardworking, ambitious, and professional, many with advanced degrees, who are still struggling to find stable employment in their field. Most are working in their field but are temporary, on contracts, or casual employees– meaning variable weekly incomes, no job security, no benefits and no paid vacation. It’s tough.

      1. Felicia*

        I’m from the GTA and live in Toronto and am of a similar age to you ( born in 1990) and I so related to your reaction at buying a house. I will never be able to buy a house here, and neither will any of my peers. I don’t want to move elsewhere,and am hoping to but a condo some day but can’t afford that now. My parents didn’t buy a house until they were about 40, and I was 13, so I never grew up around the idea that buying a house was something that people under 40 even did.

    15. CAA*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      – I am the last of the baby boomers.
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      – First job age 17. First full-time career job was offered after an internship between my junior and senior years of college. (I worked full-time during school breaks at a non-career job.)
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      – Yes, but I also wanted to live where I moved to.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      – First job, but we were in a temporary trailer on a large plant site so everyone got their own space. Other people my age who worked in perm buildings got their own offices after about 5 years. I’ve also had other jobs since that first one where I had a shared office or no office.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      – Junior year of college.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      – After college graduation.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      – With spouse, age 27.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      – First perm job (no pension)
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      – No
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      – No

    16. AnotherAlison*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Gen X (tail end)
      * When did you get your first job? 16
      * When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 21 (post college)
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? No
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Age 31. . .but lost it at age 37. . .but should get it back next year
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? Moved in w/ my husband when I was 20
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Age 20 and up
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? 23
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 20 through my husband, 21 from my job
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? I had my first kid when I was 19, so no.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Too quickly
      * Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? A lot of my peers were independent at a young age. People didn’t move home after college, and could get jobs. Not many got married and had kids like I did, but they did other adult things.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        (Also – on my last comment that my peers did other adult things, that was not meant to say that people who are moving home with parents or struggling to find work *aren’t* doing adult things, too. I just meant that my peers were meeting other milestones, other than kids/marriage, which was rare at 20 for my gen.)

    17. Ann Furthermore*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Generation X

      * When did you get your first job? –Summer after high school — phone sales (ugh). When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? When I was 19. I did not do well my first couple years of college, so I dropped out and started working full-time. Went back another year or 2 later and completed my degree by 25.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? –No, I’ve lived in the same large metropolitan area since graduation from high school, and there have always been jobs out there in my field when I was looking.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? –First “real” job after getting my college degree. That lasted about 2 years, and was the last time I ever had my own office. In that job our department moved, and I ended up sharing an office with someone. It’s been cubicles from then on out.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? –Moved out when I was 19, got myself into all kinds of debt and blew my credit score up, moved back home at 21. Stayed for a year, paid everything off, and moved out again when I was 22 or 23. I’ve been on my own ever since.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? –When I started working full-time. I was in a couple of roommate situations, but I could have afforded to live alone if I’d needed to.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? –When I was 30. I was lucky though; I was working for a private company that went through an IPO, and I made some money on stock options. The proceeds from that are what I used to make that first down payment.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? –When I started working full-time. My last company is one of the few that still has (or had) an actual pension. I didn’t think that was actually still a thing. They stopped adding new people to it a few years ago, and then at the end of last year current participants stopped accruing additional benefits, but the benefits you had accrued at that point were yours to keep.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? –Didn’t get married until 37, but that was because it took me that long to meet the right person, not because of any financial reason.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? –My father was absolutely horrified when I dropped out of college to work full time. He was convinced I’d never go back. Then I did, and got my degree. Since then, my career has progressed pretty steadily. Where I did feel that I was lacking was in my personal life….not many serious, long-term relationships, and certainly none that had ever come close to marriage. In the perfect world, I would have met my husband 10 years before I did, because we probably would have had more kids (we just have 1, he has a daughter from another relationship as well). But all in all, I’m very lucky to have a job I enjoy, a husband I love very much, and 2 beautiful daughters. I’m very thankful for what I have, and overall I’m very fortunate, so that is what I focus on.

    18. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      Really interested questions. I’m kind of hoping someone turns this into a data set of AAM readers.

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      old end of the millennial generation

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      I worked part time one day a week when I was 12 or 13 for a while and full time over the summers when I was 18 and 19.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      I really wanted to leave the suburbs – the major city near where I grew up had lots of jobs, though.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      at 32 when I started working from home full-time.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      I moved out at 23, but to be totally honest my parents were helping :/. I probably could have afforded something on my own (farther out, with roommates), but I think my mom was worried I’d end up somewhere she felt I was unsafe.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      I moved in with my partner at age 25 and at that point, we were able to pay rent on our own.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      I have lived in a succession of really, really expensive places. We could afford a small place now (mid-thirties), but are waiting until we have a little more income certainty and can afford a place with room for a home office.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      just before I turned 25.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      I mean, we are delaying buying a house now, but I think that’s just the nature of the fields we’re in (I am self-employed and spouse spent a lot of time in grad school). Other than that, I have always felt that I don’t really want kids and we didn’t delay getting married.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      I used to get nagged a little about not having kids, but I think that’s more about there being no grandchildren in either family at this point. I feel pretty good about where I am right now, but until I was 25 I felt like I was WAY behind. I didn’t get my first job out of college until October (I graduated in May) and that was seasonal retail. After that ended, I was unemployed for a while, then got a yearlong pseudo paid internship. After that, more unemployment and then temping for several months. When I finally got my first full-time job with benefits, I was ecstatic – I felt super behind and like a failure until that happened.

      1. Piano Girl*

        1. I am a baby boomer (born in 1959).
        2. First job (besides babysitting) I cleaned house for my cousin, my piano teacher. First full-time job was at 18, between first and second year of college, for three months.
        3. Pressure to move away from town – I grew up in a bedroom community. Most people commuted every day.
        4. First office with a door – at 20, when I went to work for an accounting firm as a data punch operator. The room was soundproofed, since the keypunch machine made a racket!!
        5. Pay for my own housing? I got married at nineteen, while in college, so I’ve never truly lived on my own. My father-in-law helped us with the downpayment, we lived in the basement, and rented out the upstairs to students. I was the main breadwinner of the family while my husband was in school.
        6. Live alone? See above.
        7. We bought our first house when I was nineteen, and my husband was 23.
        8. Benefits – at 20 at the accounting firm. I remember that I didn’t qualify for the retirement plan because I was too young.
        9. Delaying marriage or children? We did not delay getting married, but delayed having our first child for a few years, as I was still pretty young, and had been encouraged to wait by my doctor. We delayed trying to have a second child until my husband had finished college.
        10. My parents (who married at about the same ages) were not thrilled at how young I was when we got married, as they knew what a sacrifice it was for me to quit school. After a few years, though, they were anxious for grandchildren. Most of my peers got married young, struggled through college, and graduated with multiple children. It’s just what we did.

    19. Lemon Zinger*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      I’m a late millennial. In my early 20s.

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      I was 17 when I got my first job. It was my senior year of high school and I worked 32 hours/week. I started my first full-time job a few months after graduating from college. I’d lined it up well before graduating.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      Yes. My parents moved away from my hometown while I was in college and their new location has a TERRIBLE job market. I never considered living there after I graduated, and gladly moved to a state with a lower COL.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      I don’t have one yet, but I like my cubicle a lot more than an open office plan!

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      Immediately after graduating from college.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      Probably a year after entering the workforce, but I decided to move in with my SO and we have a lovely place. If I were living alone, it would be in a studio apartment in a run-down complex.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      Not yet. I’m not really interested in buying a home or condo since I don’t intend to live here forever. Maybe as an investment property someday, though.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      My first job out of college.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      No. I am not planning on having children and my SO and I are in no rush to marry. When we do decide to tie the knot, I will have to be making more money than I am now. And our wedding will be very small to save money.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      My parents are displeased with my decision to live with my SO before marriage, and they don’t think my job is really legitimate. It’s funny though, because I’m in a much better position than most of my peers. I also don’t have any student loan debt.

    20. Grayson*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millenial, as I was born in ’87.
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? I had my first full time job when I was… 19.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? No.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Never.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? When I joined the Army in 2008. I had previously been living with lovers.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Army, 2008.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? I could probably buy one… now. (2016.)
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 2008.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Nope.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? No. Yes. No. My peers were definitely progressing at a different pace than I was. A lot of that had to do with their ability to take advantage of opportunities I couldn’t.

    21. LawPancake*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Older millennial (’85)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      16 – grocery store cashier
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      Nope, left the state for law school and never once considered going back to the Bible Belt.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      2nd job out of law school at 28.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      18, I lived in a small city with cheap housing costs and worked more than full time through community college then the commuter college. Staying at the parents’ house wasn’t an option for me though.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      Housing costs were cheap enough that I was able to live without roommates except for helping out friend’s between housing situations.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      29, with my dad helping on the down payment.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      28, my first job out of school was contract.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      If I wanted kids in the future I would absolutely delay that decision until I had significantly more savings and less debt. I’ve never wanted kids so it hasn’t actually delayed anything. But I have 200k in student debt (thanks law school!) and have no realistic hope of ever paying it off (thanks financial crisis gutting the legal market!). It it weren’t for income based repayment programs I wouldn’t be able to afford my payments. As it is now, I can’t even afford to make a full interest payment so, even though I paid nearly 30k in the last two years, I owe $4ok more than when I graduated (my interest rates, like many other folks out there range from 3-9% and unfortunately the big ones are 7-9%).
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      No to the first but I know that I’ve been extraordinarily lucky to get my current position and have numerous friends who are still struggling to find a job with a living wage.

    22. Collie*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? – I’m a Millennial. Just turned 25.
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? – My first-ever job I got in fast food at age 16. My first full-time job (aside from a two-month internship which was full time one summer) I got about five months after I graduated from undergrad in 2014. I was about to turn 24.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? – Yes and no. I had wanted to live in the area where my SO at the time was living for a long time before I even met my SO. But I don’t know that I would have moved here without feeling relatively confident about the job market.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? – Not yet. Probably never, in my field. We tend to have a more open-office situation.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? – I couldn’t do it now, but my SO and I split rent. He pays a more significant portion as he makes more (and the same is true for groceries, etc. He owns the car but lets me use it and I chip in for gas now and then. It’s not terribly equal, but I’ve got student loans like you wouldn’t believe and he’s very understanding of that. It doesn’t escape me how lucky I am there.)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? – Nope. Can’t now, probably couldn’t ever. Especially here.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? – With my SO, probably a few years from now, but maybe not very near where we currently live.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? – Starting when I got my first full-time job.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? – Yep. I haven’t purchased a car yet in large part because of that (I also am able to rely on public transit and the occasional use of my SO’s car meanwhile, but it would be more convenient to have my own). And if my mother asks me once more time about when I’m going to get married…
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? – See above. But also, I’m really tired of the “lazy Millennials” narrative and the “entitled Millennials” narrative. They’re simply not true. I have three jobs and I did all three of those very well while going to grad school full time, earning a 3.9 GPA. I may be one anecdote, but I can say similar things about just about every Millennial I know. Sorry. I’m exceptionally bitter about the whole Millennial-shaming culture.

    23. Lillian Styx*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      So many Millennials, here’s one more (age 30)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      First: age 16, First FT: age 23
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      Nope. College notwithstanding I’ve always lived in the suburbs near a big city.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      Age 28, after being at the same employer since 23.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      Age 24 but not alone; cohabitating with future-husband.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      I could have squeaked by at age 23 but chose to stay home.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      Age 27 but jointly with future-husband. I could never save a down-payment on my own.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      Obamacare let me stay on my parents’ insurance plan until 26 I think but my 401k started with the first FT job at age 23.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      Not really. We delayed getting married because we wanted a house first and that took some time to save up for but that’s all. Delaying kids because Do Not Want (right now).
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      The people we care about have never told us we were doing things wrong. They definitely have raised their eyebrows at us, but we never really cared about anyone’s opinion but each others’ (me and Mr. Styx that is). Many of our closest friends are doing the same thing we did. House, then marry, then kids maybe in some abstract futuretime… I’ve seen lots of peers marry when they “should,” have kids when they “should” and some seem to be completely miserable but most seem to be happy. To each their own. I only judge when someone has obviously only gotten married, etc. because they thought they had to. Can’t think of anything stupider.

    24. NacSacJack*

      Thank you for doing this. You’re not alone. I’ve heard this my entire life.

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Gen X’er *woo hoo*
      * When did you get your first job? Other than baby-sitting? 14.
      * When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 20 – dropped out of college for lack of $ (I don’t consider summer jobs full-time). Did night time schooling while I worked full-time, finished up my Associates degree, went as far in night school as I could until I had to go to day school.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Yes, my home town was a bedroom community for a large metro area. I expected to find work in that area. My first post-college job was 250 miles away in a smaller metro.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Haven’t yet
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? Had to do so right after college since my job was 250 miles away – would have been required to do so by parents once I had a job even if I had stayed in the area
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? I started out alone because I knew no one in town, then when I moved back to larger metro area, after a year had to get a roommate – higher COL
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? I probably could have afforded sooner, but then-bf didn’t want a house, probably 5-7 years after college – it comes down to what do you want. I wanted a dog and eventually kids. Back then, big dogs weren’t allowed in Condos
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? My first job at 21, didn’t know what it was, when I left to go to university, I cashed it out(might have been too small to keep anyways), 2nd job might have had 401K, I was living poor then, third job didn’t like that their 401K was mostly in company stock and matched with company stock, 4th job at 30 signed up right away
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Yes, house, kids, bought my first house 6 months after 9/11
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? I was way behind my parents and so were my older siblings. My parents were married at 21, done with kids by 25 and their first house by age 29/30. Also, being gay I knew my life would be different. What’s interesting is my parents never wanted me to have a house…until I met my first long-term bf, then it was like okay, now buy a house. I kinda went “Huh?”
      * Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? Yes and yes. My peers all graduated in 4 or 4.5 years. I was 4 years older than everyone else in my peer troup when I started my first post-college job.

    25. Girasol*

      What a great post and great comments. I always wondered if I did it right!
      Generation: Late boomer (born mid-fifties)
      First job: not counting babysitting, 16 (legal age in my state)
      Pressure to leave town: N/A, I wanted to move to a new place.
      Door: Never. I’m a cube farmer.
      Afford to leave parent’s home: Immediately after college, as my parents had made that expectation. I’d saved the equivalent of three months’ rent on a cheap studio apartment and was shocked to see two thirds of it go at once on security deposits for room and phone. I got the first dishwasher’s job I could find and barely survived the first few months before starting a real job search.
      Live alone: Since I’d moved to a new town, I was alone right off the bat. My best buddy joined me later.
      House or condo: When I married six years later.
      Benefits: Two years after college, at 24. Just basic medical, no retirement.
      Delayed marriage or kids: Yes. Good thing, too. I lost my opportunity to marry the wrong guy and start a family before either of us was ready.
      Hitting milestones late: Dad was appalled that after him helping me through college I was washing dishes and warehousing. But I didn’t feel bad compared to my peers because all my graduation cohort was equally disadvantaged for those first few years before the market went up again. Our situation was different from millennials’ in that college debt was not the albatross that it is now, housing costs were steep but not completely impossible, and it was still possible and rather expected for a college grad to get a liveable blue collar job to start out, although I did run up against “overqualified” sometimes. Can you even do that anymore?

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Right. The no college debt was a big advantage for me. I didn’t even know debt was an option!

        1. Manders*

          Oh yeah, not having college debt has very much shaped the way my life has played out so far. I lucked out and got a very rare form of financial aid (both my parents are tenured professors, their university has a benefit that pays most of a kid’s tuition for any undergraduate institution, public or private). Things would have gone very differently if I had to deal with a heavy debt load in my early 20s, or if I’d had to choose a college and major based on what I could do that would pay off those loans.

        2. Jillociraptor*

          Yes, I would peg this as the determining factor in my financial success as an adult. I had much less than average debt with small enough payments that I basically never had to plan financially to cover them, and my partner has no debt from any of his education (BA, JD, and now PhD). We’ve been able to have a lot more lattitude as we make choices because of the lack of debt.

    26. Blue Anne*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millennial. I am 27.

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? First job? Regular babysitting gig when I was 13. First job with a W2, summer camp counselor when I was 19.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Not really. I got out because I wanted to get out, but the job market has been pretty good everywhere I’ve lived. I’m lucky that I’m in a high demand profession. (Accounting.)

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Haven’t had one yet. I think if I didn’t job hop as much, stayed with the same company for a few more years, I could ask for one. Not a priority.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? I paid all of my own monthly expenses for the first time the month before I graduated from college. I had picked up a terrible call center job while writing up my thesis.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? I just started living on my own for the first time 6 months ago, but I probably could have afforded it a few months ago. It’s nice, but I don’t like spending my money this way, and I’ll probably go back to roommates/sharing with partner ASAP.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? I’m aiming to buy in about six months. Property is very affordable in my city. I’m going to buy a duplex, rent out one side of it, and maybe ask my boyfriend if he wants to move in with me. I’ll be 28.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? I just got health insurance yesterday! I’ll get a 401(k) in a couple of months. This is deceptive, though – I only came back to America 8 months ago, and health insurance was unnecessary when I lived in the UK.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? My ex-husband and I delayed kids until he was happy with our income level. Thus, we ended up not having kids before we divorced. Thank god. Beyond that, though, I’m not interested in delaying life plans any more. If I want to do it, that’s the right time to do it.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? My mom is shocked that I’m interested in buying a house. My grandma thinks I’m right on target and doing great. I’m “progressing” faster than most of my friends, but that’s partially because I’m a very privileged person (debt free white lady in a sensible profession) and partly because my friends value the house/pension type deal less than I do.

    27. Mimmy*

      I’ll play!

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      I think Gen X (born in 1973)

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      First job was during high school as a church rectory receptionist. First truly FT job was in 2001.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      No, though because I can’t drive, I did feel limited in my options. Still do.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      Temp position in 2010 – it was actually a small conference room.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      Moved away from home in 1999 when I got married.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      Same as above – never had roommates.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      We bought our first home in 2002, which we still live in to this day.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      From 2001 – 2005 in FT job noted above

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      No

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      I’ve definitely been progressing too slowly – no one has ever said so overtly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what people are thinking. I met many great people when pursuing both my Masters and graduate certificate, and they definitely have progressed more than me, which is disheartening.

    28. aubrey*

      What generation are you considered a part of?
      * Millennial (1987)

      When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      * I started working at 12 (babysitting) or 15 (regular retail job). I was in grad school until age 25, worked a string of freelance and part-time contract jobs, then got a full-time job at 27.

      Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      * I wanted to get the fuck out of of my hometown since I was a preteen. I moved 6 hours away at age 18 for university and never lived in my hometown again. It wasn’t primarily for job market reasons, but the job market in my hometown is pretty much farming or retail or drug dealing, so. That contributed.

      When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      * Never. Only open floor plan offices and briefly a cube farm. I do have a home office now though!

      When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      * 20. I lived with my boyfriend, and he did pay a larger share of the rent since he had a full-time job and I was a student working part-time minimum wage jobs. But I did pay my share.

      When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      * 20 was the last time I lived with roommates, but I lived with the boyfriend until we broke up when I was 26 and I moved into my own place, alone. I couldn’t afford it comfortably for a couple years, but I loooooooooove living alone so I took the gamble and made sacrifices in other areas.

      When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      * I’m hoping to be able to in the next 5 years… but really it might be more like 10 since I want a house not a condo and to live in a fairly expensive area.

      When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      * I had benefits for the 5 months that I worked in a job I hated. I’ve chosen to freelance and work for a startup and so not having benefits is part of that choice. I’m Canadian so I don’t need to worry as much about health care expenses, thankfully. As a note, I’ve never considered having a pension to be a possibility, and I only know one person my age who has one (government). I’ve always been aware that my retirement was going to be my own responsibility to save for.

      Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      * I don’t want kids and don’t care that much when/if I get married. But I would love to live in a different city, travel, and own a house, and I’ve delayed all those things for financial reasons.

      Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      * For me it’s more about the milestones I’ve opted out of, which is another thing that people have moral panics about. I’ve never been that concerned about hitting milestones, and my parents and friends have mostly not made a big deal of it either. I do feel like people are starting to really judge me/be concerned about me for being an unmarried 30 year old woman though. I also feel a lot of pressure to be successful in my career – both in an achievement way and in a financial way – to justify the choices I’ve made (like freelancing instead of finding a steady job, and living alone instead of saving more money by living with roommates or at home). My parents were already established in their careers, owned a house, married, had me, and got divorced by the time they were my age, which is weird to think about. But my friends are all over the map in terms of milestones.

    29. Temperance*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millenial

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? First job besides babysitting: 16 at a movie theater; first full-time job, 23 in shared office space

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Pressure? I mean, I guess, but I’m from a terrible area with a crap job market, nothing to do if you’re not into going to church every day of the week, and I didn’t fit in because of my education/cultural preferences. (Scranton, in case you’re wondering.)

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Two years ago.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? I don’t know how to answer this? I paid for my own housing in college and never looked back.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Not sure how to answer this, been living with Booth since college.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? 2014

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? First “real” job

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? yes

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? So this is one of those class marker things. My family is blue collar. They wanted me home until marriage. They wanted me to be a teacher, nurse, or secretary.

    30. Annie Moose*

      1. I am a Millenial!

      2. First job… I did some seasonal retail work in high school. Aside from that, a paid internship in college (when I was 19). First full-time job was after I graduated college, when I was 21.

      3. Definitely. I didn’t end up having to for my first job, because it was with the same (locally-headquartered) company that I interned with, but when I was laid off from there, there just weren’t a lot of options in my area. I may not have NEEDED to, but my options basically came down to “move and have a job with a higher salary now” and “don’t move, don’t find a job for awhile, and probably don’t make a higher salary anyway”.

      4. Still waiting! I’ve downgraded, actually… when I was an intern and for the first year of full-time, I had a cubicle with high walls, for the rest of my full-time I had a cubicle with low walls, and now I’m in an open office. (which I actually don’t mind THAT much; I zone out easily when I’m working on something so I don’t hear the noise when I’m focused)

      5. A few months after I started working full-time. I lived at home during college, so I saved a ton of money from my internship, plus the first couple months of my full-time salary. My internship was surprisingly well-paid, so I likely could’ve moved out while I was still in college, if I’d been willing to get roommates (which I wasn’t!).

      6. See above–I’ve never lived with roommates (aside from my immediate family, of course), because I just don’t think I could deal with it.

      7. I could now. I don’t really want to (the maintenance and extra costs of home ownership outweigh my annoyance at neighbors, thus far), and I only just moved to this area for a job so I don’t know how long I plan to stay here.

      8. The aforementioned first full-time job. No pension, though–they got rid of that long before I came on the scene.

      9. Hasn’t come up for me. :)

      10. My parents are really good about not interfering, so they haven’t said much like that. In comparison to my peers, I definitely have been very blessed. How many people go out of college straight into a nice full-time salaried job with decent benefits, these days?? I know I make more than most people my age, and because I’m pretty frugal, I have a very comfortable savings fund. Part of this is my degree, part of it is that internship in college: not only did it pay me, but it gave me experience AND turned into a fulltime job. That gave me a huge leg up that other people didn’t necessarily have. (but was more about being in the right place at the right time than me being exceptional, in my opinion!)

    31. Emilia Bedelia*

      – Very Millenial.
      – First job: 17, senior year of high school. Full time: Internship, if that counts, at age 19. First full-time/full year job: 21
      – I had no location preference for jobs. I moved out of state for college so I mostly focused on finding a job… anywhere. Location wasn’t too important.
      – Haha, not yet! Director level and above gets the offices at my job.
      – 21, when I got my full-time job. (not counting college)
      – 21
      – Haven’t yet
      – 21
      – Haven’t really hit that point yet, but I am certainly holding off on making choices like that until I pay off student loans.
      – Not really. I wish I had waited to move to my own apartment and had lived with roommates, which was suggested to me by a lot of people, but I didn’t know anyone in the area of my first full-time job and finding a roommate never panned out.

    32. Annon2016*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millenial
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 16 (had graduated HS and was in college)
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Yes, but didn’t.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? 20
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? Moved out at 16 and had roommates until 18.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Since 18 I lived alone in CHEAP, CHEAP housing for several years. Lived with S/O for past 5 years, but *could* have afforded to live in extremely cheap housing ( barely scraping by) alone since around 21.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? I bought a house at 21. It is much cheaper than renting an apartment in my area.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 16 (really translates to 18 because I was graduated, in college, and working in a professional firm)
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Yes, currently early to mid twenties and not planning on children because the cost of childcare is too high to be currently feasible and I feel like the opportunity-cost would be damaging to my career.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? My parents encouraged me to continue on the path I was on. Objectively I would consider myself to be more successful than what I see portrayed in the media for my generation. Although, I do think it happened really early and I feel like I missed out on some fun relaxing years and jumped straight into a career campaign.

    33. Hear you*

      I am a baby boomer. Children are 21, 27, 31. things are different. They always are. Times change, economy changes. The oldest 2 are on their own. Neither married but so what? One will make more money this year then his father ever did. Does that make him ahead of the curve or fortunate to have a job he loves that pays him well (including overtime which he is very willing to do). The 27 is breaking even but does that put her behind the curve? Or is it just that she first tried to make a go of it in a dying field? (some one has to make the last buggy whips). None of them are married but then I was 28 and their father was 29 when we got married (that was old), we, like our parents, didn’t have our first children till they were 30ish. Does that make us outside the norm for our generation? What does that make our parents?
      All this does is make us doubt ourselves even more. The question is are you where you want to be? If not you have to figure out how/what to change.
      The reality is there is a limit to how much better then next generation can do compared to the earlier ones. There can’t always be giant steps.

      1. Blue Anne*

        The big concern for a lot of people my age isn’t that we’re not going to be ahead of our parents, but that we’re taking a big step back from the previous generation.

        It isn’t true for me, but that’s really because I’m from a pretty wealthy family.

        I have a lot of pretty heated talks about this with my mom. She’s 64, I’m 27. We skipped a generation in the middle there. Both of us look askance at the other’s views on these questions.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, my parents were 40 years older than me. They just missed so much stuff because of the age difference. Conversations took a loooong time and even once we finished they still did not get it. Actually, I felt protective of them for this reason. I worried about what they did not understand, was their lack of understanding going to hurt them? (Yes it did. But so does mine. That’s how life goes.)

      2. all aboard the anon train*

        Like Blue Anne said, it’s not so much that my generation is looking to get ahead of our parents, but the realization that we’ll never be on even footing with them and we’re several steps behind.

        Most of my generation won’t have as much money saved up in personal savings, 401Ks, IRAs, or pensions because we have so much debt. And most of us won’t have assets like homes or condos because we can’t afford them with housing costs being so high and salaries being so stagnant.

        I make more than my mother does currently, but I also have less in terms of retirement and personal savings than she did at my age. At my age, she had a house, a car, and kids. I can’t afford any of that because I’m bogged down with debt, high COL, and a stagnant salary. She had a better economy when she was out of college. I had the economy tank. We went to the same alma mater. She graduated in 1978 and paid $1,500 a year. I graduated in 2008 and it cost me $18,000 a year. And this was an in-state four year public university. My parents bought a three bed home when they were 27 that cost $35,000. A three bed house in the same area today costs between $350,000-$400,000.

        So, for me, it’s not so much wanting to do better than my parents, but the realization that I don’t even have the same opportunities based on financial situations. Everything has drastically increased in price, except salaries.

        1. Natalie*

          The general condition of a generation, say, Millennials, has broad effects on the overall economy, too. A lot of people of all ages have “wealth” tied up in their homes – what happens to that asset if the largest group of homebuyers can’t afford the price? It can’t be liquidated and doesn’t function as an asset anymore. If a lot of people who otherwise would have had children delay or forbear children entirely, our next generation of workers will be smaller. And so on.

    34. Crylo Ren*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Millennial (late 20s).

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      First full-time job about 4 months after I graduated college. I was REALLY lucky, though. Many of my peers didn’t find jobs until 6mos+.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      No pressure from a job standpoint, because jobs pay very well here. However, there is a lot of COL pressure. I’m open to moving, but it’s hard to find that balance of equivalent pay + lower housing prices.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      Only the Cube Life for me. I’m in a hybrid cube / open office plan in my current role.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      I moved out about 2 years after getting my first “adult” job, after saving up a good emergency fund.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      I’ve always lived with my fiance, and have had some years where I had an additional roommate.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      I live in an area where housing prices are ridiculously high. I have $30k saved but will likely need to scrimp and pinch for the next 3 years before I can afford to put a down payment on a minimally acceptable condo.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      Always.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      Yep – I got engaged in 2013 but we aren’t getting married/having a wedding until next year because I was waiting until I had a job that paid me as much as I am making now.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      From my parents’ perspective, not necessarily too slowly…more like I’m just not working in an exciting enough field because I’m not working in the entertainment industry, am not a doctor, not a flight attendant, and not a PHD-level teacher like my cousins. However, I probably have the best salary and most stable job out of all of them so I’m not too concerned that I’m not exciting enough. ;)

      From my peers’ perspective: Many of my peers seem to be progressing much more slowly than I am in terms of my career. They’re still working minimum-wage, hourly, low-level jobs at tiny family-owned businesses whereas I’ve been working at progressively larger, multi-state corporations, make a great salary and would be considered manager-level.

    35. Imaginary Number*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millennial (very early edge of it)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 14, 23
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? No
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? 25 (But I don’t think that’s a good indicator because so many companies are moving to more open floor plans, even for higher level positions)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? 21
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? 23
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? 30
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 23
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? No. Just didn’t go that way for me anyway.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? I went the military route first, so generally I think I hit most milestones much earlier due to the financial stability that provided straight out of college.

    36. Friday*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? – Old Millennial (35)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? – First job at 15, first FT job at 18 (first summer after first year of college)
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? – Yes, ended up picking a geographically-bound industry
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? – Cubes, open office desks, still no office with a door
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? – 19, sophmore year of college (lived in dorms freshman year)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? – 21, right after college
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? – 27 first home, in escrow for 2nd home right now
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? – 21, first job after college onward
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? – yes, waited until 30 to have first kid due to $$
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? – Not about work or housing, but I’ve been harassed about making baby #1 and now if there’ll be any more since early 20s.

    37. Soupspoon McGee*

      I love this idea, and I love reading everyone’s answers!

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      -Gen X, flannel and all.
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      -I started mowing lawns and babysitting for neighbors at about age 11 or 12. I got my first FT job with benefits at age 26 or 27 (after realizing the thing I want to grad school for would leave me in PT adjunct hell).
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      -I never ever wanted to live in my home town after high school. Even if I wanted to, it would have been very difficult to stay unless I wanted to commute to the nearest Big City.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      -Age 27.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      -This is tricky. I moved out when I went off to college, got married in college, we bought a house, then I got divorced and got into debt trying to live solo and recalibrate for a few years. I bought my own house and lived alone at age 27-28, but was barely treading water for a long time.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      -Honestly, it would have made financial sense to have roommates after the divorce.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      -It depends on what “afford” means. See above–bought a house at age 27-ish. I didn’t get in more debt, but took forever and a career change to pay it off.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      -I was PT faculty at age 22 or so, and I think they started paying into retirement when I was about 24 or 25. I didn’t have a job with insurance until a career change at age 27.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      -Sort of? I dove into marriage way too young. Post-divorce, I dated and really wanted kids, but delayed marriage/children until I felt like I was with the right person to raise kids with, yet made enough money to take care of them on my own. I met someone great when I was about 41, but by then, he had teenagers and didn’t want babies, and my eggs told me to f*ck off anyway.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers were progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      -My parents didn’t bother me about milestones, but occasionally make concerned noises about life. Mentors have been few and far between, but have not made me feel like I’m doing it wrong. On the other hand, I am frustrated by broader cultural/media depictions of single women. I spent my 30’s lamenting that although I owned my own home and had a decent job, I was not fulfilled because I didn’t have the whole man/baby/white picket fence package.

    38. SomeoneLikeAnon*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millennial
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 15; first full time was military at 18, post-military 29.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Nope
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Not as of yet
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? Immediately
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Well, I was authorized to live without roommates at 19, but they were dorm rooms. My first apartment without roommates was at 22.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? With all the traveling I never gave it a serious consideration until I left the military. Bought my house, with husband, as co-signer at 28.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Immediately – go military benefits.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Nope.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? Nope

    39. Chickaletta*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Gen X

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      16 (part-time), 22 (full-time)

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      In general, yes, but not directly from people I knew.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      24.? It was in an espestos-ridden basement though, and I haven’t had a proper office with a door since about 27.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      22

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      22

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      32, with the help of a down payment from my parents.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      What’s that? JK. I’ve had health insurance for awhile, but it was never very good and I was on an expensive HDHP by 2007. I’ve had a 401K since about 2007, but it has been very hard to contribute to it. Retirement will be a struggle and it’s one of the things that keeps me up at night. I don’t know what else to do though, our paycheck is finite.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      No. I got married at 29, had my son at 34, because that’s just when it happened. In hindsight, I would have waited longer to get married though because I think I settled. But at the time I felt like my chances of having a traditional white wedding were running out. It was stupid. I’ve spent years paying for the chance to walk down the aisle in a beautiful white dress, and it’s not in dollars.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      My dad used to lecture me about saving for retirement all the time when I was in my 20s. I kept explaining to him that I couldn’t afford to save money like that: everything went to rent, food, car, etc. He just didn’t get it. I finally told him that I was an adult and my money wasn’t his business anymore and he stopped.

      In my 20s, I felt a lot of self-imposed pressure to achieve more life goals. That is a time in life when friends and classmates start getting married and having kids. It’s the first time in your life that you’ll see people your age buy a house, get master’s degrees and go to med school. You probably know a handful of really successful peers who start doing big things in their 20s like start companies, become executives, become doctors, become semi-famous, or receive a high award or recognition. It is a hard time of criticism if you want to do those things too but haven’t yet. It is like this for everyone of all generations. It is even harder now because social media informs you on a daily basis what everyone is doing. It’s like going to your 10 year reunion every time you turn on Facebook. So, as a 39 year old who’s been through that, let me let you on a few secrets: 1) Most people are where you are at. All those high-achievers are just a few years ahead of where you will be in a few years. Stay on track, you will get there before you know it and you’ll probably enjoy yourself a lot more anyway. 2) Life isn’t over at 30. This idea that all the good stuff happens in your 20s is a load of crap. You don’t become another person or feel any different when you get older. In fact, you feel exactly the same as you do now and have the same personality, you will just be a different number on paper. That’s it. Stop believing that there’s some kind of expiration on getting married, finishing your degree, meeting your soulmate, or achieving career success. You will be a lot happier if you can. Oh, one thing that’s different in your 30s: you’ll get all this; you’ll learn to stop comparing yourself to other people and meeting other people’s expectations, and you’ll be a lot fucking happier for it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Love this, because it’s true that time can be very kind. The stuff that we think is important becomes less important and other stuff emerges as a priority. Some stuff is wildly over-rated and we can eventually decide that life is just fine without it.

        Honestly, I thought that my 20s were the second hardest period in my life. That expectation, “well you SHOULD KNOW!”
        “Well, I don’t know, get over it and tell me what it is I should know!”
        It was hard to tell if an established adult was talking down to me because I was in my 20s or if the established adult was honestly assuming that I actually did know.
        I always had a sense that established adults were waiting for me to fall on my face.
        I got into my 30s and my give-a-damn died.
        I remembered my father saying he was around 40 when he stopped worrying about every single darn thing that people thought or said.

        Punchline, I relate to 20 somethings who are floundering. I remember and I get it. It was awful, one particular thing that stands out for me was the medical people and the lawyers thought they could tell me anything and I would believe them. Now I walk in with my gray hair and I do not get treated that way. If you are 20ish and you think you are getting treated differently, that is not your imagination. But it will pass, which does not make it right but maybe it will help make it bearable.

    40. ThursdaysGeek*

      *I think I’m a boomer, but just barely (born 1961)
      *I had jobs in high school and college. I worked after I got my degree, but it was about 4-5 years after I got my degree that I got my first full time job relating to the degree.
      *I had already moved for college.
      *I’ve only had an office with a door with one job (my first)
      *I was paying for my own place on part time work while I was in college. Minimum wage was about $3/hr but I had no costs for a phone or car. I also worked as a nanny and got room and board (while in college), and roomed with 2 others in a house. I got married right before graduation, so I’ve never been alone since then.
      *With my spouse, we bought a house shortly after I got my first real job using my degree. And then we put his entire income on it, because the interest rate was 10%. We paid it off in about 2 years.
      *My jobs have always included health insurance and 401Ks, but never a pension.
      *At my 10 year high school reunion, I felt like I was behind my peers (and didn’t attend), because I was still struggling to get my first real job.

      I have empathy with today’s young graduates, because I see the same struggles I had. And I don’t see a lot of slackers, just people trying hard in hard situations.

    41. zora*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Generation Catalano (GenX/Y cusp)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      Delivering papers at 11, babysitting at 12/13. Professional theater tech while still in HS. First ‘day job’ right after HS graduation(18) while in college part-time.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      No, but left the area because I wanted to live in other cities.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      29. Nonprofit program director, small office. Then downgraded on my next job at 31, haven’t had my own office since.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      20. While in college, but part of that income was student loans. But started working enough to pay rent right after graduating.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      34.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      Still can’t
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      27. But then on and off since then, I have had jobs that did not include health insurance into my 30s.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      Yep.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      Not the first one. But the second one definitely, I have definitely felt behind my peers many times in my life.

      1. zora*

        And I’m lucky that my parents are awesome, and also had hiccups in their lives and married each other pretty late. My mom was already years ago loudly annoyed at people writing about ‘lazy millennials’ and feels like the Boomer generation screwed up the economy for everyone and has no right to be judging younger people for not being able to afford homes and kids on stagnant wages, and has said exactly that to me and my sister many times. It’s helpful having my parents being so supportive when I feel so far behind, and have many times had to resort to temping or retail to make ends meet.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          I wanted to comment in response to the comment about boomer generation screwing up the economy. I don’t think any one generation is responsible for screwing up the economy for another, but the game keeps evolving and our ability to play lags, since we don’t know the rules ahead of time.

          – My grandparents (deceased, would be in their 90s) retired comfortably off their CDs, which earned 8% interest. (!?!)
          – My parents started out in the early 1970s and dealt with high unemployment, high inflation, and high interest rates, and they had to save for their own retirements in the stock market.
          – Nothing generationally bad happened to me (gen x), but I graduated at a time between recessions.
          – My millennial sister was subject to the crappy economy and high education debt after getting 3 degrees to finally find a job.

          None of these things make it easy to win or doom you to lose, but the problem is that the rules change and you may be in front of it or behind it. I think the upcoming gen (my son is one – 19) sees what the millennials are going through and can change how they play the game, but something else will change for them, too, I’m sure.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Boomer generation screwing up the economy. We did. And so did our elders and so did their elders. But the beat goes on, because most generations will do something to screw up the economy.

            “Every generation blames the one before and all of their frustrations come beating on your door.”

            I can give credit for that song/artist as soon as I remember who it was.

            The best thing to do is to remember WHY each generation made the choices it did. Copy the good choices and ditch the bad choices.

            1. zora*

              of course. But also, the previous generation should stop calling the new generation of adults ‘lazy’ and ‘slackers’… because they say that every time, too, and every time it’s not true.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Yeah, it’s embarrassing that boomers do this. They, of all people, should freakin’ know better. I have tried talking to some of my peers about their attitude, some listen and let their compassion win out and others… not so much.
                I’m with you, it ticks me off.

          2. zora*

            I was writing quickly, but my mom’s point is much more specific than that. The people in charge of the banks that did questionable things and actually hurt the economy were mostly Baby Boomers. And yet, there is a narrative mostly from Boomers that Millennials are lazy and it’s their fault if they don’t have a job/salary/house, etc. She thinks that specifically is bull, and that Boomers should be aware that Millennials are dealing with a much different economic set of circumstances than the Boomers had when they graduated college.

            Trust me, she knows things are different for every generation, her parents lived through the Great Depression. I was just talking about the “lazy millennial” narrative and how the very people who keep saying it have absolutely no business throwing stones.

    42. Ihmmy*

      Caveat: Canadian answering
      * What generation are you considered a part of? – Millenial! 1985
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? – Age 16 for any work, age 22 for first Full Time
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? – not yet
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? – My own where I was the only person? Hasn’t happened yet
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? – I moved out at 17 to go to university, but my parents split so my mom and I moved back in (more roommate like than parental after a year apart though), and then I moved into my boyfriends place at 21
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? 30 (it’s tight mind you)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? 23
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Uni had benefits for students, first job had extra health like dental and prescription but it was employee paid (which sucked), my second FT job had employer paid extra health. Doctors visits etc. always n0-fee because Canada. Started having auto withdrawals around 25 that will eventually become retirement savings but it’s a rather small dollar figure still because life keeps happening
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? – planned a long engagement (twice) so we had lots of time to save, ended up breaking up before spending more than $500. No kids. I’d like to downsize but I’m not willing to deal with the financing and all that jazz involved in getting a smaller place right now.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? – my family was super impressed I bought a house at 23

      1. Ihmmy*

        bonus clarity – bought my house while I was with my then partner, though the mortgage was and is fully in my name. Living alone without roommates or spouse type person as of 30 (have lived a few years with partners and no roommate starting at 23). Milestones: I don’t want kids and I’m pretty meh on marriage so the housing was the main one, I think my grandma is waiting for me to ‘settle down’ but she hasn’t really said anything overt about it.

    43. KR*

      *I’m millennial (22).
      *I got my first job when I was 16. I have never had a full time job but I’ve been continuously balancing 2 part time jobs since I was 17.
      *The job market is better here then it is where I’m moving, actually. I haven’t felt any pressure, but I have felt wanderlust.
      *I share my office with my manager and my team who all come in at different times. Rarely are we all in at the same time.
      *I could afford to move out of my dad’s house when I was 21 and wasn’t pouring all of my money into school.
      *I could afford to live on my own (without my husband’s income) now, but given the current housing market and my pets it’s nearly impossible to actually find a place.
      *I cannot afford a house or condo.
      *I am under 26 so fortunately I can stay on my dad’s insurance as long as he continues at his current job. I also qualify for insurance through my husband’s job. The only insurance I’ve qualified for through my work is too expensive and not very good. I haven’t begun saving with a 401k or pension since most of my cash goes to bills.
      *It’s really hard actually because I’m turning down a really high paying full time niche job to move across the country to live with my husband. I was delaying living with my husband for the longest time because I was scared of risking my economic well being and security. I will get other job offers though and be okay.
      *My parents have always praised me for working so much and I feel like they think I’m more advanced in my career than I actually am. I have been gainfully employed and have an associate degree whereas many people I went to school with have bachelors degrees already but don’t have well paying jobs. I feel like I took the path a lot of people take when they can’t afford college and don’t want to be in debt and I think for me it was the right choice, but I wish I had that piece of paper.

    44. Princess Carolyn*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millennial, but kind of an old one
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? First job was when I was 16 in fast food. First full-time was right after college.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Yes; I graduated 6 years ago and still haven’t been able to move back to my home town – but my husband’s situation has been a factor; might have been easier if it were just me.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Never have and probably never will – the industries I’ve worked in have never been big on private offices
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? I did it as soon as I got my first job out of college (~6 weeks after graduation) but a grandparent paid my initial expenses like an apartment deposit, and I’ve been struggling to make ends meet ever since.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Probably never. I went from roommates to married but I know I couldn’t afford my (rather modest) apartment without my husband or a roommate.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? I’m guessing never, even in my rather affordable location.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Had 401(k) since my first job out of college, and started paying for my own health insurance when I was 25.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Job and financial issues are the primary reason I’m 28, married, and childless for the foreseeable future.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? I grew up poor so my parents don’t bug me about the milestones except for the kids part. I definitely feel left behind by my peers, who all seem to own houses now.

    45. Marcy Marketer*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? I’m a millennial
      * When did you get your first job? 15– I had to apply for a special permit since you normally have to be 16.
      * When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? I went to grad school after college (I was 22), but it was free and I was paid a stipend to teach. I didn’t get a “real” 9-5 job until 24.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? yes 100%.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? 25
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? 24
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? I went from roommates to married, so never :)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? 26
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 22
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Yes, definitely.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers were progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      I think my parents feel like I’m moving too fast in terms of marrying and getting a house– they’d like me to stay young forever I think, but I feel behind some of my peers who married and bought houses right out of college. I’d certainly say I’m progressing faster than what we see in the media (Girls, etc), but I’m kind of an older millennial.

    46. EP*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millennial
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? I was babysitting from age 12 – but I worked at Blockbuster in my neighborhood when I was 16 (was fired from that job because I had strep and wasn’t going to have a voice {very hard to check people out when you can’t talk to them} and was still contagious{perfect person to be surrounded by other people})
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? I live in the “extended” DC metro so nope
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? I had a door at my first job (I got placed into a closet/work room from my hire date (Thanksgiving) til the 1st of the year because technically my department didn’t’ exist yet & we didn’t have space) then again during a temp job, but I’ve mostly been in cubicles
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? I lived out of my parents house for 3 years (with roommates) until I was unemployed and I moved home – now the SO & I are looking to buy
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Never – I work in associations/NFPs I have come to expect that I will always have roommates
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Hopefully by this spring – with the boyfriend
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Always – after going 18 months without I won’t take a job that doesn’t offer them
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? nope (they haven’t happened for other reasons – not for job reasons)
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? My job type is not typical – I have only worked in 2 jobs that weren’t Non-Profits/Not-For-Profits and then I was a government contractor – while slightly more typical for my area I know I’m not making money like some of my peers – which is why I’m considering getting a certification in project management or something similar

    47. LuvThePets*

      * What generation? Gen X
      * First Job? Summer Job at 15 When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 21 when I graduated from College.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? I’ve never necessarily moved just for work/job market. I’ve moved to be close to family. When I lived in a small town, there was a metro area an hour away, and we did eventually move to be closer to work.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? One of my lowest paying jobs at 24 had the nicest office. My highest paying (Director level) job 20 years later currently has me back in a cubicle because there is just a space premium. There is a $60,000+ difference in pay.
      * Living on own: Got married and were living on own immediately after college graduation (early 90’s), with two very low paying incomes (less than $40,000/yr combined).
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? See above.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Purchased first house, married, around 1998, 5 years after college graduation and marriage, with very little down payment, making about $55,000 combined income.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Off and on over the years, as I have worked in non-profits organizations. Husband has usually been able to provide health insurance if my organization did not. Have personally had consistent benefits for past 8 years.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Have not delayed BIG issues (marriage, kids), but we have lived comfortable but frugal for years (no vacation or short, long weekend vacations). paying for bills before stuff.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? No. But then again, I don’t pay attention to this type of stuff. Not on facebook or social media with VERY few exceptions.

    48. Adlib*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Gen X – I think? (1980)
      * When did you get your first job? After graduating high school. When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 3 months after graduating college.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? No, but I had always planned to do that so I did.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? When I was 25.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? When I was 22.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Age 22
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Age 31
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Age 22
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Not really.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? No, not really. I was always pretty self-motivated with regard to moving out/my career so I was always working hard whatever I was doing so nobody bothered me about it. Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? No, but keeping up with them was somewhat of a motivation for me to keep improving. Now I’m 36, and I feel like I’m finally where I want to be, and it seems like it didn’t take that long. I think about it, and I’m like “Wow, that really was 14 years that passed!”

    49. Manders*

      I wanted to chime in again and say that this discussion has been AWESOME. Thank you to everyone for sharing your stories.

    50. Danae*

      – GenX
      – First job was at age 14, providing childcare for ten hours a day for a couple of little girls during the summer. First full-time job was in college, doing data entry. (I had a light class load that was all in the evenings my last year of college.)
      – I hated living in my home town, and even 25 years ago San Jose was too expensive for anyone making less than $50k a year to live alone, so I moved to Seattle. My parents pressured me -not- to move.
      – I got a shared office with a door about 4 years into my adult working life. A non-shared office with a door came about 2 years after that. Then my company moved and I have not since had my own office.
      – I started living alone immediately after moving to Seattle, so when I was 22.
      – I bought a condo when I was 26. I sold it (and have not owned real estate since) when I was 31.
      – I started getting health insurance and 401(k)s when I was 24. My access to health insurance over the years has been intermittent, though.
      – I’ve never had kids, because I don’t want them. But I’ve also never been in a place where I could afford them, even if I wanted them.
      – My parents never brought it up with me but I can FEEL THE JUDGMENT from here. Most of my peers own real estate of some sort, and almost all of them are married. I don’t want to be married, and without two incomes owning property is a pipe dream.

    51. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      I guess X (’77) but I really hated Reality Bites and didn’t get any of their angst!
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      I think 12 for first job – paper route to help pay expenses for my traveling competitive soccer team. Full time work from 16 in the summers (specialist factory work)
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      I’ve moved a lot in my life, but when I was 27 I felt the need to leave my college town and go somewhere with better, broader prospects and not limited by one or two industries and the federal govt
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      I’ve never had a door
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      I moved out at 18 to go to school and paid for my own housing from then (dorm included), however I had almost free tuition in-state because my father is a professor. I have paid for my own housing since, but mom and dad have let me stay at home for a few month here and there when I was bouncing between moves/countries
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      When I was 27
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      I have never bought a house/condo but I could have afforded one when I was 27/8
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      From the age of 27
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      I have never considered having kids OR getting married, but I am in a long term relationship (just hit 12 years last week. Yes, 27 seems to have been my inflection point!). They were never important to me. What was important was moving internationally and that I DID delay until I had more skills/savings. Right now we need to move apartments but had to wait until I had a permanent contract locked down.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      None of the above but I remember being very sad on my 30th birthday that I had failed somehow in that I didnt have some fancy city job, my bigger goals were further away, I didn’t own a house, etc etc. My father went back to school at 40 in a non traditional career and really, there wasnt much path following in our house. But still the media made me feel, especially at the peak of the bubble, that I didnt have what I was supposed to have (namely, a house)

    52. Emac*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      -Tail end of Gen X (1975)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      -I think first job was at 14, first full time job was at 21
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      -No, I’m from the Boston area; the market has always been pretty good here
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      -Still trying for that
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      -First moved out at 21 after working in my first full time job for several months. But like others I’ve seen, I’ve been back and out, and finally got out for good in my early 30’s
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      -I was able to for a year or two in the early 2000’s, I think, when I was in my early 30’s. But I had to move about an hour out of the city for that then and I wouldn’t be able to do that at all now – traffic seems significantly worse, so the commute would probably be at least 1.5 hours now, plus housing and transportation prices are higher, so I couldn’t afford it even if I could stand the commute.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      -If I stay in my current job and location, I doubt I will ever be able to (at least not until I win the Powerball!)
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      -In my first full time office job when I was 22. My company paid 100% of our health insurance, which at the time I assumed was what all companies did. I had no idea how good I had it! I should have stayed in that job longer.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      -Pretty much everything; buying a house/condo would be my first life change if I had a higher income.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      -My father is pretty supportive, as long as I’m happy and not stressed about money; my mother thought I moved out too quickly (and still thinks I should be living “at home”), but doesn’t really consider what I do a ‘career’, so she wouldn’t even think of the other milestones. I have definitely thought others were progressing faster than me, but am starting to be okay with it since I’ve had the opportunity to do a lot of different things, which actually helps me a lot in my current job.

    53. SeekingBetter*

      * Millenial
      * I got my first job at 14 at a restaurant working super part time. I got my first full-time job at said restaurant when I was around 22. Got my first full-time office job two years ago.
      * No, I never felt this pressure. I also thought it would be harder to find a job across the nation due to the economy all these years so I never tried to either.
      * Three years ago
      * I currently (and always have) live with my folks. I would need a reliable roommate if I ever were to move out. But if the next job gives me enough money, I have no problem living on my own.
      * With the way things are going, I’m not ever sure if I could live alone without any roommates.
      * Probably never.
      * I had health insurance at my last position.
      * As for marriage, I never cared or worried about it. I’m not a kid person so it’s not in consideration for me.
      * Most of my peers are all married, have kids, and have careers and financially stable jobs (including some close friends). I guess I’m the sore thumb sticking out!

    54. Cass*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Millenial – I’m 28.
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? I got my first part time job when I was 11…and I just got my first full-time job 3 months ago. :( I was searching for 6 years, supplementing with part-time jobs in my field.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? A little bit, my adopted home town is really only home to a big university and that’s where I wanted to work.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? YESTERDAY! (Sorry, very excited.)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? I moved in with my boyfriend after college so we were able to make it at age 22.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Probably now, if I wasn’t married. (To above boyfriend.)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Age 27.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Just got them 2 months ago.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? Yes, it’s something I considered delaying so I could start my career and feel more secure in my ability to return if I decided to stay home for longer than the employer-given time.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? I absolutely felt like a failure for not getting a full-time job. It may have been amplified in my own head because of anxiety issues but I ALWAYS felt less-than, subpar.

    55. Curtis*

      1. Millennial (25)
      2. 18 for first job, 23 for first full-time job
      3. No, but I never had any interest in staying so I didn’t pay much attention to the local job market. There are limited opportunities in my field in my hometown, but I moved out before I even had a field.
      4. I haven’t and it’s not something I’m really looking for on my current career path, except maybe on temporary assignments.
      5. 22
      6. 22
      7. I guess I could get a mortgage? One of my coworkers was looking into this recently and it seems very easy to buy houses. But I was raised by parents who didn’t think you should buy a house unless you could write a check for it and so even though I know that it can sometimes make more sense to have a mortgage than pay rent I’m not ready for that yet, psychologically speaking…
      8. 23
      9. I definitely wouldn’t have kids now for income reasons, but I don’t want to have kids in my 20s anyway.
      10. I feel pretty average financially. Most of my friends my age either live alone in small apartments (like me) or with a roommate in larger places. Almost nobody has houses or kids and nobody who doesn’t have them really wants either at this point. The only thing that makes me feel somewhat unusual is that most of the people who are very dedicated to a particular career track knew what they wanted to do pre-college, or at least during college. I’m the only one I know who had zero idea at graduation and figured it out within the next year. Once I knew what I wanted it was pretty easy to get a job in the field and I’m looking at a 75-100% pay increase when I move on from my current company (just starting interviews now). I don’t really see many depictions of my lifestyle in media but I’m in a niche industry and my non-work life is kind of tied to that, so I wouldn’t expect to.

    56. Headachey*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Gen X
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? Age 17
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? No, market was good in home town
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Age 28
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? Age 18
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? Age 28
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Hahahaha
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? Age 25
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? No, but I never planned to do those things anyway
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? No, I felt pretty much on track with my generation, if not independent at an earlier age.

    57. Rache*

      What generation are you considered a part of? Gen X
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? Worked under the table for a friend of my mom… full time summers thru jr. high (big-time illegal, but making $5/hour was phenomenal at that time) First “official” full time job was two years after HS graduation.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? no
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? I had one about 10 years ago – because we had extra offices. It literally was big enough for my desk and one visitor’s chair. And I never closed the door. :)
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? 1997 when I moved 1200 miles away
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? I’ve never lived alone – moved in with my boyfriend after leaving home
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? 10 years ago, but lost it due to changes in jobs as well as the housing market tanked
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? I’ve had benefits since my first official full time job – never a break in coverage (22+ years)
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? no
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? no

    58. Sophie Winston*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Young Gen X (1975)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      Paper route at 10, then baby sitting, first W2 was fast food at 16. Full time temp job at 21 while out of college for a year, first professional job after BA grad at 24
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      No, happened to stay near my college that had a similar economy to home town.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      Had one for a year in my late 20s, but it was a converted utility room I only got until they renovated me back to a cube. Still in a cube, but a nice one.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      18? When I left for college I never looked back. School housing was paid during the year, but I worked to pay for a shared apt with shared bedroom summers.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      Rented a crappy place on my own when I temped at 21.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      Early 30s, but only because I had a spouse with an equally good income.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      24 with first professional job.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      Waiting on buying a house to be sure of location, and scraping together the down payment
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      Parents, concerned about my life? Not familiar with the concept.

    59. Anon for this*

      Gen X, roughly (born 73)

      First job – part time job at age 15 (before that, library)
      First full time – summers in university, first non-term job after grad school.
      Moving – left the country one week after defending my thesis for a job, never moved back (in a given year there are maybe 3 or 4 jobs in my field in my country). As an adult, I’ve lived in seven cities in three countries.
      Office – still share (three person office)
      Moving out – left my hometown for university, never lived there again, so living with parents no an option.
      Roommates – except for one year, I’ve always lived with roommates before marrying. High cost of living cities, where what I could get living alone was too expensive.
      Buying – stops hysterical laughter, picks myself off of floor. We have two professional incomes, and can’t afford to buy a place we’d want to live in.
      Benefits – Canadian, never been without health insurance. No pension plan, though, because I work abroad.
      Delaying – not so much deliberately delaying as not having the opportunity due to job path (grad school, post docs, constant moving, being female with a STEM PhD are not conducive to relationships. Am married, but lost the fertility/age lottery.)
      Expectations – I came from an academic family, so my parents weren’t surprised, but extended family were really puzzled by beign in my 30s and not married. I’ve never really seen people like me depicted in the media, and yes, my peers fast outpaced my financially and in things like marriage, kids, houses, etc. But that’s academic life more than anything else.

    60. Not So NewReader*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Boomer

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? 18. My father had his first job at 7, he did not want me going through what he went through. Yeah, we argued A LOT.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Yes, I felt pressured to leave my town, but just for the sake of leaving. As it stood, living just about anywhere else would mean more available work, except for the place that I actually moved to. Whoops.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? Doesn’t apply, would not really be expected.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? HA! Still can’t, yet here I am. I left home in my early 20s, it wasn’t until I hit 30 that I could resume breathing.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? About 30, but I had been married a while by then. If I had been on my own, I might have made it if I watched every penny.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? Early 30s but not on my own.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 30

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? No. Had hard pressing issues to deal with such as dying parent and so on. We were focused on that stuff. We got married and just decided to live very modestly.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      My father was super supportive, always told us we were hard workers, etc. Inlaws were the opposite, they questioned everything. My peers were progressing faster than me, this was not a matter of feeling or guessing! Nope, I never saw depictions of people like me in media. Work 4o hours a week and run between hospitals for sick parents for years on end. Nope.
      The tv shows I did watch cracked me up. No one wore the same garment twice. I usually keep an item for years and years. I would notice the china/dinnerware. Yeah, odd, I know,but it just something I picked up on. People in sitcoms especially, always had different dinnerware practically each week. I have had the same dishes for 35 years. I wondered how they could afford all this stuff. When the characters talked about money being tight, I would laugh. I could not relate to constantly buying clothes and dishes then complaining about not having money.

      Magazines were another dream land thing to me. Beautiful homes, beautiful gardens. I used to scrutinize the pictures. I would figure out that no one could actually sit in that chair because the coffee table was pushed up against it. Or the lamp could not be plugged in because there was no nearby plug. I concluded that some rooms were staged just for the shoot. Nice pics though.

    61. Survey Monkeee*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Gen X, the slacker generation, LOL

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      I got my first job at 16 but I was in NO WAY ready for it. After that, I didn’t work until I moved away, then again when I moved back home at 23. I’ve had lots of jobs–I’m not very good at keeping them, however. Which makes the recent changeover a bitter pill because I could have kept that job for a long time.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      I do now; the pay here is abysmal.

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      I’ve never had this.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      Not until I was older, and I still need help from time to time.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      When I moved here to where I’m living now; before that, I lived with a bf, and then at my dad’s (rent free–he was driving a truck and wanted someone to keep the house safe)

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      In 2002, because anybody could buy a house in 2002. I was smart and got a fixed-rate mortgage, but dumb because I bought a POS house.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      Health insurance through most jobs but I have never had enough in a 401k to roll it over after leaving a job, until now. And this was from not contributing anything, which infuriates me about the recent job loss even MORE.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      No, my delay has been because of a severe lack of suitable partner. :(

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      Parents or mentors–no, though my dad did nag me for a while about having kids.
      The rest–definitely. :(

    62. Red Reader*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? — Oregon Trail (1980) (I still have my Apple IIc from 1983 in my home office and YES it still works)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? — 15, 18.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? — I moved away at 19, but it had nothing to do with the job market.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? — I had one at 18, but I worked in a 4-person business, we all had one. I’ve never had one since.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? — 18
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? — I got my first solo apartment at 19.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? — a year and a half ago right before my 35th birthday, i bought a 4 bedroom house solo.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? — 24
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? — nope.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? — no, no, and I didn’t but I didn’t worry about it.

    63. SharedDriveUser*

      * What generation are you considered a part of? Early Boomer (b: 1947)
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job? (June 1964)
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better? Yes, although not for first jobs.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door? 1974
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income? 1966
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates? 1971
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo? 1068
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension? 1967
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security? No
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media? No to both; I did wonder at some of my peers choices – a new car every year was never on my wish list!

    64. hermit crab*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      Millenial (born 1986)

      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      I had the same summer job throughout high school (started when I was 15). I had full-time jobs in the summers in college, and was fantastically lucky to land a “regular” full-time job only a couple months after ending my last summer job (in the fall after college graduation) despite it being 2008. I still work at that company.

      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      It was always just assumed that I would move away. I am not from a depressed area, per se, but there are only good opportunities there in a limited number of professions. I would like to move back, actually, but my family is like “why in the world would you come back here?”

      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      A brief, wondrous time around 2013-2014, after a promotion but before the company shifted to an open office plan.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      After graduating from college and getting my first full-time permanent job, age 22. There were three of us living in a two-bedroom apartment in an outlying neighborhood of our city and I found it very affordable — but I should note that I am hugely privileged to have no undergrad debt and am a total homebody so my expenses were minimal.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      Around age 27. I lived alone for about three years and now live with my husband.

      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      We could buy a place now, but it would either be much smaller than our current apartment or really far from my job. So we are saving up instead.

      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      First full-time job at 22. Again, super lucky! I had a major medical expense in 2010 and was so, so, so lucky to have had good insurance at the time; it ended up not being a financial hardship at all.

      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      Not really, though my husband and I have lived apart for most of our relationship so far because our jobs were in different cities. We got married before we lived together, actually. We are currently delaying kids (possibly forever) but it’s because the world sucks right now and not specifically for financial reasons.

      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      I’m “behind” on child-bearing compared to the cohort I grew up with — I’m from a fairly conservative/traditional area and (at 29) was the last of my female high-school friends to get married; most of them have at least one child by now. And I am definitely an outlier because I’ve been at one company my entire professional career so far. That is NOT the picture of millenials being shown in the media. :) It is working out OK for me so far, but I realize I am prioritizing stability over the potential for growth. Mostly I feel like I was so lucky to start out with compared to many of my peers, and I don’t want to screw things up!

    65. KJ*

      * What generation are you considered a part of?
      I’m an older Millennial-I’m in my early 30s.
      * When did you get your first job? When (if ever) did you get your first full-time job?
      I got my first job at 13- totally illegal, but it was a small summer camp and I was good at working with kids. My first full time job was in grad school, before that jobs were always part time since I was in school as well as working.
      * Did you feel pressure to move away from your home town to an area where the job market was better?
      I moved for other reasons- the MA I wanted I couldn’t get within 500 miles of the town I grew up in. So I ended up far away. The market for jobs isn’t better here, but it is a city that suits my lifestyle better. I was planning to move back after I got my MA, but I found a job and a spouse who has a job in this town, so we stayed.
      * When (if ever) did you get your own office with a door?
      I’m in a bullpen office now. But this year, I will get an office with a door!
      * When (if ever) could you afford to move out of your parents’ house and pay for housing with your own income?
      I moved out in college, but my parents helped me. When I went to grad school, I paid for housing by myself.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to live alone, without roommates?
      In grad school, I found a tiny, possibly illegal studio. It was great.
      * When (if ever) could you afford to buy a house or a condo?
      Last year, at 30, with my husband.
      * When (if ever) did you have benefits like health insurance and a 401k or pension?
      My full time job in grad school had both, although I was young enough to be on my parent’s insurance at that time.
      * Did you ever consider delaying marriage, kids, or other major life changes because you were waiting for a higher income or more job security?
      No. My job isn’t high paying, but I have a spouse who makes more and I have the potential for a higher paying job anytime now, as I passed some markers that will let me get better jobs. I also have no student loans.
      * Did your parents or mentors ever tell you that you were hitting these milestones too slowly or too quickly? Did you feel like your peers where progressing at a different pace than you, or that you never saw depictions of people with your lifestyle in the media?
      My family acted like I was an old maid when I waited until 29 (29!!!) to get married. I’m from a conservative region and most folks from my area get married straight out of high school or college. My parent, and all my aunts and uncles were HS or college sweethearts. One cousin got married the month she and her husband graduated college. Waiting to 29 made me an old maid and they were shocked anyone would want me at 29. Of course, I was the second of the cousins to get married, so I think it is safe to say they are going to have to get used to us being “old maids” before we get married. And, of course, I haven’t had a kid yet, which means I’m “too old.” Not really, I’m not even 35! I think I’m the norm for people in cities my age, but my family thinks I’m really outside the norm.

      1. KJ*

        Oh, I should add that I am considered by some at my job to be a “young” employee- hired at 26, still the youngest person my boss ever hired. I mentor interns who have kids my age, which is interesting. My field places a lot of emphasis on having authority and gravitas, so I am a bit outside the norm. I find myself considered too old by my family and too young at work (although, a couple years in to this job, everyone thinks of me as an old hand and is shocked if it comes up that I wasn’t born when they graduated high school.)

  41. an anon is an anon*

    If I have to listen to coworkers and directors in my department make any more snarky comments about saying “holiday party” or “Happy Holidays” instead of Christmas, I am going to scream. Sorry (not sorry) that not all of us celebrate Christmas. It’s pretty alienating to have people tell me that if I eat cookies at a holiday party, then OF COURSE I celebrate Christmas and it’s not really a religious holiday so decorating with Santa hats and Christmas trees isn’t religious in nature and something everyone can enjoy. Which, no. It’s still holiday iconography for a holiday I don’t celebrate.

    A good 10% of our large department doesn’t celebrate Christmas, so it’s not like it’s an uncommon thing for our company, but the few coworkers I have who won’t stop snarking about “having to be PC” are making me miserable. I just want to eat baked goods and drink hot chocolate at a party. I don’t want to be made to feel guilty or unusual because I don’t celebrate a major holiday.

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I’m sorry, you have to act like the holiday you’re celebrating is not the only one that falls at this time of year? That must be really difficult for you.”

      Combined with “If there were a tray of Dreidel cookies here, would you be celebrating Chanukah by having some? I mean, Dreidels aren’t particularly religious, so you’d be celebrating Chanukah, it’s just iconography, right?”

    2. Arielle*

      Ugh, if I never have to have this conversation again with that one person who just Does Not Get It, I would be so happy. I literally saw someone on a message board the other day making the argument that SANTA CLAUS was a generic holiday symbol “no matter what holiday you celebrate!” I wonder how these “it’s a secular holiday!” folks would feel if suddenly the main social occasion of the year was a Passover seder or a Sukkot party – but everyone can enjoy it because it’s just a secular feast of thanksgiving/harvest festival!

    3. Pebbles*

      I am of the opinion that you (general you, not you you) should just say whatever you feel so inclined to say as a greeting this time of year. If you celebrate Christmas, just say “Merry Christmas”. If you celebrate Kwanzaa, say “Happy Kwanzaa”. If you celebrate (or don’t) something else, say whatever else you prefer as a greeting. The snarky comments and “war on Christmas” is uncalled for BS. Take comments in the spirit they were given and assume good intent. The people who get so uptight because they were greeted in some other greeting than what they wanted are really missing the boat on what “holiday spirit” means.

    4. ket*

      Tell everyone they’re solstice cookies. I mean, they’re usually round cookies, right? They look a lot more like the Sun than a baby Jesus or a donkey! And if you start telling them about astronomical events most of that type will just back away….

      1. Weeeeeeeeeeeee*

        Semi-relates:

        I went to the doctor and as I was leaving, the doctor asked my plans for the holidays.

        Me: “Oh, I’ll nap. Maybe do some reading.”

        Doctor: “Oh but … aren’t you also traveling to visit family?”

        Me: “No.”

        Doctor: “Why not?”

        Me: “My family doesn’t really celebrate any of the religious holidays coming up.”

        Doctor goes back into the exam room to find my chart, opens it to check my name, and then comes back to me.

        Doctor: “Your last name is eeeeeeeeeeee. That’s a Christian name.”

        Me: “How interesting.”

        Long pause while we stare at each other.

        Doctor: “…..Well, have a happy New Year.”

        Me: “Thanks, you too!”

        Bahahahahaha. I don’t think he meant anything by it and quite frankly I wouldn’t have guessed he was Christian. It’s just another example of how everyone is so focused this time of the year on Christmas. The war on Christmas thing drives me nuts. It’s a very privileged position and builds on the assumption that everyone celebrates the same way.

    5. Gene*

      I say to find a list of December “holidays” and every time someone gets on the War on Christmas high horse, wish them a Happy fill-in-the-blank Day! For example, today is National Chocolate Covered Anything Day.

      Happy National Chocolate Covered Anything Day to all AAM readers!!

    7. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      ugh, YES.

      I am fine with people saying Merry Christmas, even though I don’t celebrate it, if it’s what they celebrate and what comes to mind. Hell, if it is actually December 25th I may say it to people myself if I know they celebrate it in one way or another.

      What is not fine is saying it as if you’re saying something “naughty” or revolutionary, or accompanied by a snide comment about how you’re talking about CHRISTMAS. Hell, yeah, it’s naughty, because you’re being an a-hole.

    8. Survey Monkeee*

      I get tired of being pitied because I’m not going to see family at Christmas. Dude, we just did the family thing at Thanksgiving; we alternate because people have in-laws. I don’t want to spend that much time driving back and forth this time of year. I do wish I had in-laws, but I also plan to enjoy my pajama day and I’m going to make myself a good dinner.

      People act like it’s the saddest thing ever. But they never invite me to have Christmas with THEM, either. >:(

    9. manderw*

      So, for all you non-Christians: do you ever actually get offended if someone wishes you “Merry Christmas”, even if they know you don’t celebrate the holiday? (I hope this doesn’t read as snarky — I’m genuinely curious here.)

      There’s been a lot of talk about this on the more, ahem, right wing side of my social circles and I find it odd. I’m not exactly religious but I do come from a generic Protestant background, so my experience is of course skewed. But many of my friends and acquaintances throughout my life have not been Christian (a range including Buddhists, atheists, pagans, Jews, Muslims, etc.) and I’ve never known any of them to be actually offended by someone saying Merry Christmas. If it’s someone they know, they might gently remind them that they don’t celebrate Christmas but it’s not a big deal. Heck, my husband’s Sikh colleague even gave out Christmas cards every year!

      Anyway I just find it a bit baffling. Obviously arguing about the real nature of the day, whether or not you are participating by eating cookies, etc. etc. is a load of nonsense and that stuff is actually offensive. But if a cashier says Merry Christmas, or the mall decorations include that phrase or other Christian symbols (stars, angels, and so on) is it actually offensive to you?

      1. manderw*

        Sorry, I expressed that badly. What I mean is that I find the concept that people complain about it being offensive to be baffling because I have never heard anyone be offended by “Merry Christmas”. Where does this notion that you can’t say that because it’s not PC come from?

        1. hermit crab*

          No, I get it. I am not a Christian, personally, but many of my friends and relatives and coworkers are, and I hear and say Merry Christmas a lot and have never been offended. I mean, I think the Christmas Consumerism Industrial Complex is pretty out of control, but I personally have no problem wishing or being wished a Merry Christmas. I plan on having an enjoyable day on December 25th, and I hope you do too! I have experienced antisemitism, but being told Merry Christmas is (in my opinion) really, really, really not on par with that.

          I actually feel weirder when people go out of their way including Hanukkah as though it’s on the same level as Christmas because yeah, not really that big of a deal.

  42. Blue Anne*

    Small vent: I’m three months in to my new job at a small accounting firm, and I’m finally starting to realize that the senior partner is a jerk.

    He just likes yelling at people and putting them down. My favorite comment so far is “Your training before this job was obviously deficient. But you have a degree, so I thought you were going to be pretty smart.”

    (I am pretty smart, and he knew exactly what my training was before he hired me.)

    Luckily he’s not a controlling partner any more and my colleagues have given me a pep talk. Apparently the best thing to do when he starts ranting is just completely zone out and think about something else until he runs out of steam. He wants a reaction and if he isn’t getting to you he won’t bother.

    Everything else about this job is great, so I can deal. But maaaaaan. Someday I’ll own my own business and never have to work for jerks again.

    1. LCL*

      …and when you own your own business the jerks will be some customers, and you might not be able to fire them depending on how you are doing financially.

        1. Lucy Westenra*

          But hearing customers going off, to me at least, is kind of amusing, because I’m the one in the position of power here. Chin up, buttercup, and don’t let anyone make you afraid to do your job.

          1. Blue Anne*

            Yeah, I can definitely deal with angry customers better than I can with an angry boss, that’s true.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        The best bosses I had were able to tell the customer to take their business elsewhere. I think part of the solution is not to allow one customer to make or break your biz. If a customer is big, then consider that the one customer maybe too big for your set up. Giving up many customers to satisfy one is a trap. Watch out.

  43. Emi.*

    I just realized that my sweatshirt today (it’s casual Friday) says “Class of 2016” in big letters. Is it a mistake to wear things that highlight my Youngest Person In The Office status? Am I overthinking this?

    3. T3k*

      Not that big of a deal, but probably best not to wear it again to work. Anything with “class of” on an adult comes off like you’re still trying to relive your college years.

  44. Question About References/ Anon for This*

    I need advice about references. I’ve been working in another field this past year part-time because I couldn’t get a job in my “real field”. I haven’t spoken to my references since last summer but I had a job interviewer yesterday who wanted to speak to them. I’m feeling a lot of anxiety to the point of dizzy panic attacks about forwarding my references because part of me isn’t sure what they’re going to say and part of me is embarrassed/ashamed of what my life has been like the past year. I want to get a job in my “real field” and there’s a lot riding on these references. But my references are also physicians and have never experienced unemployment or a job search. I don’t want to color them as being critical, unprofessional people but i think they tend to be more abrasive and on the unprofessional side. I don’t know. I’m just really anxious and stressed out.

    1. JHS*

      Why don’t you call them up and ask if they’re still willing to be a reference for you and explain the position you are interviewing for? You can also say, do you think you will be willing to give me a positive reference? I am very interested in this position and you being a reference would mean a lot to me. Then see what they say. Then after that, if they say they will be a positive reference, you have to just let it go and see what happens. If you don’t get the offer, you can ask the interviewer whether it had to do with references and then you’ll know.

      1. jamlady*

        I agree. I lose track of people a lot and I had one reference be pretty snarky about not talking to them in half a year (btw I reached out a few times and he never responded). It’s smart to reach out and catch up, and to verify they are still willing to be a reference.

      2. Question About References/ Anon for This*

        I guess i’m resistant to reaching out to them because I don’t want to annoy them and they get annoyed very easily. They both said in spring 2015 they had no problems being references and I believed them. But then a hiring manager contacted them in August 2015 unbeknownst to me and prior to the interview and then spent the interview complaining how she couldn’t get a hold of them. I sent them both emails and left voice mails about the situation and never received a response, so I didn’t know if that meant yeah we get it or no this is annoying. I got rejected from the job but didn’t think to ask at the time about the references because there was a whole other part of the position involving animal experiments that I had no experience doing and wasn’t disclosed until a third interview.

        Anyway, the point to my dumb response is that I think I’ll see what happens. If I get rejected again, then I’ll ask about the references. Unfortunately, I don’t have any others even if these are bad.

        1. jamlady*

          I don’t think spring to fall is that big if a jump, but I have had a reference tell me before that they wanted a heads up before being called with details about the job and what I’ve been up to so they could make time. Maybe that would help?

        2. JHS*

          I would still call them. You can just frame it in a way that is sort of like “I know you are tremendously busy and I really appreciate your time, so I’m sorry if I’m bugging you, but I just wanted to check in and make sure you are still willing to be a reference for me.” I think it’s totally appropriate to tell them to expect a call.

  45. The Moving Finger*

    Well, despite my boss believing me that I didn’t scream at some stranger on the phone…I got written up anyway. Not firing-level writeup so I’m not quite boarding the firing train yet, but they decided they still had to punish me somehow. Apparently my officemates said that while they never heard me scream, they all hate my voice and said I suck at talking, and between that and my past history of people not liking my voice…I was deemed mildly guilty and must be punished. Boss was extremely nice about it, mind you (I get the feeling this wasn’t entirely his call), but I’m still ticked off.
    At this point I hate my officemates or at the very least don’t trust them for shit, and I’m afraid to speak in front of them, and they are not getting gifts. Fuck ’em.
    Thank god this is my last day for the year and then I am out for two weeks. Let’s hope they actually do my job while I’m out, preferably in such a way that I don’t get in trouble for it. I’m going to have to check up on everything I’ve had to wait on to make sure everything gets done though.
    On the one hand, I can’t stay here: on the other hand, sure as hell can’t seem to get another job anywhere else. Boss loves me but everyone else hates me. I don’t know what the hell to do any more.

    1. SophieChotek*

      What? Your officemates “hate your voice”? What kind of attitude is that?
      I am glad to hear your boss has your back (sort of) but that’s nuts.
      Sorry you’re dealing with this.

    2. LCL*

      What’s ‘wrong’ with your voice, according to them? Do you have a different accent than the rest of the pack? Does boss think there is anything wrong with your voice? Why isn’t boss sticking up for you more (I realize you are the wrong person to be asked that question.) Even if you have Gilbert Gottfried voice, you have a right to talk the way you talk. I read your post from last week and it made me mad. Now I am even madder for your sake.

    3. MissGirl*

      You’ve got a lot of anger here and there’s no way for us to know if that’s justified or not. It could be you work with jerks or it could be you have a harsher tone than you realize. You may be coming off defensive or angry without realizing it. Ask yourself some tough questions and listen with an open mind. You could be saving a better tone for your boss but not your coworkers. Even if you are completely in the right, introspection can be helpful.

      1. Mazzy*

        Look at the story from last week. Sounded like coworkers were making false accusations about OP and now management seems obligated to go along with them anyway.

        1. MissGirl*

          Of course, but it never hurts to have some introspection of your own behavior. You may still decide you’re right but you will have grown during the process.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Eh, I work at controlling my voice. It might be unnecessary but OTH not many people get really angry with me. And I am in a job where people could get really angry with me.

            I try for a flat tone that sounds like I would use for reciting statistics out of an almanac. Again, my peeps could get really upset really fast so I have to project calmness and understanding.

            I will say that years ago I did not really think about how I sounded. I had a couple comments and I decided I better watch and see how I could be appearing to others. Maybe I went to far worrying about it, or maybe not. I know it has served me well to be able to say important things with a matter of fact or dull tone.

  46. anonymoushiker*

    I had a new hire start (first time really managing, start of hire to finish/having support for becoming a manager) this week and she is fantastic. I’ve never managed this job and there was no clear on-boarding process because the previous person built the role and she has documentation on a lot of stuff but you have to dig to find it and there’s no clear outline of daily/workflow responsibilities.

    Anyways, I am so thrilled with my choice so far and I hope it continues!

  47. Bianca*

    Anyone have suggestions on how to make sure your boss knows that you had to pick up the slack of your coworkers due to their lack of time management without throwing those coworkers under the bus?

    Long story short, we’re all supposed to contribute equally to this project. I finished my section with lots of time to spare, and everyone else missed the deadline and now the project lead (not my boss) is asking me to pitch in. I’m OK with pitching in, but I want credit for doing more than my share (especially since I already have the second largest workload of all of us in other areas of our work). I regularly see my coworkers spending time on facebook or taking care of personal business during work, and I don’t want to tattle on them for doing these things because I do them too. But…I also finish my work.

      1. Bianca*

        It is not at all the first time. In fact, the last time this happened, the person who was supposed to be doing the bulk of a project in which he missed the deadline and I ended up finishing (and fixing) won a big monetary award for his work.

        I will never get any credit unless I bring it up.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you have a good boss, then she already knows. Keep track of your accomplishments and use them to bargain for a nice raise. No need to mention what others are doing.

  48. JKP*

    My boyfriend received a threatening call at work yesterday. He owns his own business and received a voicemail from a total stranger: “I’ll be flying out from [opposite side of the country] to pay you a little visit at [address of business]. Thanks for the photo [presumably from website], now I know what you look like. Be talking to you real soon.” When you listen to the voicemail, the guy sounds like a mobster out of a movie and the words are stressed such as to sound very menacing. No mistaking that it was meant to be a threat.

    My boyfriend works in a larger industry that is typically very corporate and meets clients face-to-face. But the specialty niche that he works in never meets clients in person, and all work is done over phone and email. So he returned the call, proceeding as if this was a potential client who mistakenly wanted to meet in person. But even after explaining that his business only works with clients over phone and email, the guy wouldn’t tell him why he was calling and doubled down on his threat, insisting that he would be flying out to talk in person very soon.

    After the call, we googled the guy’s phone number (which wasn’t spoofed because the guy answered the phone when my boyfriend called back after the voicemail, and the guy also texted back and forth with more threats), and it was the business number for a Guns N Ammo type website store (the physical address listed on the website was just a PO Box).

    My boyfriend has no current or past clients that are upset with him. He hasn’t worked with and doesn’t know anyone in that city. It’s not personal, since the guy misprounounced his name worse than the worst telemarketer. The only thing we could think of is that a few months ago we discovered that BF’s name & business were listed on a hate site that had collected info on all the Jews who had placed advertising with a certain media outlet.

    If the guy does actually fly across the country, he’ll discover that the business address is a PO Box (since BF has no need for physical office space). If he’s determined enough, he could find a home address through deed records, but there are already motion activated wifi cameras all around the house that send to BF’s email and BF will be staying at my place for now, so the house would be empty. BF also conceal carries and is very well trained.

    Not really sure whether we should just wait and see if it was an idle threat, make a police report, or take any additional safety measures. He’s a bit nervous about going to the PO Box to get his mail and plans to call the manager to give them a heads up in case someone shows up at his mailbox looking for him.

    2. Manders*

      That’s awful. I’m so sorry your boyfriend is being targeted.

      I think that even though your boyfriend’s probably physically safe, it’s worth contacting the police and other organizations that track hate crimes. Getting this kind of information on the record is important–organizations like the FBI and the Southern Poverty Law Center need to have access to aggregate data so they can track whether problems are getting worse. This article has some resources: http://www.hrc.org/resources/what-to-do-if-youve-been-the-victim-of-a-hate-crime

    3. Hermione*

      I would definitely make a police report. This is terrifying, and it’s far better to be proactive in keeping safe.

    4. Sadsack*

      I’d make a police report! Include whatever info you found online and that you gleaned from the conversation. Also provide copies of the text messages. Be careful, and good luck!

    5. Emi.*

      I’m so sorry! Definitely make a police report–it’s good for your PD to have a heads-up in case this creep does try to make good on his threats, and they can give you advice on what other measures to take.

    7. Sunflower*

      I would talk to the police- not sure if they can do anything but it would make me feel better if I was in this situation. If your BF doesn’t know this guy and this isn’t personal, it’s likely he isn’t the only person to receive this threat.

    9. Ann Furthermore*

      That is really horrible, not to mention scary! Be on the safe side and file a police report so the paper trail is started, in the event that it becomes necessary. Also, save that voice mail somewhere, document all the conversations, and keep screen shots of all the texts. Also, keep the information about the hate site where his information ended up (which is also awful).

      I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this!

    10. Temperance*

      You should file a report both in your jurisdiction, and the one where this psycho hatemonger lives. I’m so, so sorry that your boyfriend is going through this.

      1. Emmie*

        I second this. It sounds like you might be questioning whether this is something worthy of a police report. It is. That’s so creepy, and scary.

      1. Mreasy*

        Well that ended up in the wrong thread. Sorry about that. And I’m sorry you’re dealing with this horrible scary situation.

    13. catsAreCool*

      I think talking to the police and the manager about this is a good idea. The police might not be able to do anything but give advice at this point, but that could be helpful.

      What is wrong with racists, anyway? That hate site stuff is seriously messed up.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Loop in as many people as possible. Police, upper management, neighbors, the post office.
      You could probably go to the FBI with this one. I would seriously consider it. I have gone to the FBI with much lesser issues. Ask authorities to check with authorities in his state.

      Don’t sit there by yourselves and try to deal with this.
      Let’s say this is mistaken identity, he thinks your BF is someone else. Or let’s say this is an idyll threat with no back up. None of this matters! It’s BS and you should not have to live in fear or put up with it.

      Let us know how you are doing and I wish you the quickest resolve on this problem.

  49. Amber T*

    I’m being a bit petty here, but this is making me laugh more than it should.

    When I first started at my current job, I was hired as an admin to the admins – any overflow of filing, printing, general admin tasks fell to me. Honestly it was a really great way of learning a little bit about everything in the business. I got along great with three of the four admins, but for whatever reason, the fourth admin (let’s call her Jane) took an immediate disliking to me. As a recent college grad I know I definitely tried to “fix” a lot of “problems” (“it would be more efficient to do it this way!” the overeager noob would say) but the other admins would point out that there was a reason they did things that way, and eventually I learned.

    About a year ago I was promoted into a different department and now I rarely work with the admins (we’re an office of 40ish people and casual, so there’s lots of stopping by desks and chatting – I’m still close with the other three admins). Occasionally I’ll have to work with the admins to get information about the partners they support (availability, personal information, etc). I swear Jane goes out of her way to be as unhelpful as possible! It’s ridiculous… I always cringe when I have to work on a project involving one of her partners, because that means working with her and the feeling of wanting to pull all my hair out. (The second my boss emails her for any information, she provides an overload of info, so it’s not as if she doesn’t do her job. I think she just likes providing me with one word answers and making me ask 500 questions to get a simple answer.)

    So for the past couple of years our professional relationship has been strained. It’s honestly fine, nothing worth complaining about or bringing to management, and honestly I get a chuckle out of her antics after the fact. But here’s where I get to laugh hysterically – a few weeks ago I had surgery and was out of the office for two weeks. During that time I received plenty of emails from coworkers wishing me good luck and a speedy recovery, checking in to see how I was doing, etc., including from the other three admins. Nothing from Jane. That’s okay, really wasn’t expecting it. My first day back I was stopped by everyone and asked how I was doing, which was amazing and made me feel missed. I stopped by one of the admin’s desk (Lucinda) and chatted with her for a while. Jane walks right by us and says “Good morning Lucinda,” completely ignoring me. So, super sweetly (to the point where it was obnoxious, I admit it), I say “Good morning Jane!” She kind of smiles and nods and ignores us, even though her desk is right next to Lucinda’s.

    I don’t know what I did to make her dislike me this much, but at this point it’s pretty funny. I chuckled all the way back to my desk.

    2. Kai*

      Ha! That is funny. There’s a kind of freedom in realizing someone will not like you, for seemingly no reason, and just accepting it without trying to change their mind. Sounds like you’re handling it just right.

  50. NotMe*

    A coworker is expecting her annual review to go poorly for two reasons: 1) she has missed a lot of work this year and 2) her work output has suffered and she has fallen behind. The thing is, maybe 75-85% of her absences were covered by FMLA (having a baby). And the work that she fell behind on was because A) she was out on FMLA and the temp she trained to cover her did not do much of the work she was hired/trained to do. And B) since she came back she has been covering a vacant (unrelated) position which greatly hinders her ability to do her real job.
    Assuming her review does bring up her FMLA-related absences and productivity problems (in addition to her other absence and possible productivity problems), what answer can she give?

      1. NotMe*

        OK, I DID mean to post that here. I thought I did a response to someone.
        Can you tell I’m a first time commenter? So sorry.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Has she been clear with her supervisor/boss about the overflow and amount that the temp did not cover that she’s been trying to catch up on? Has she been clear about how the additional position that she’s covering has been getting in the way of her own position?

      If the answer is “No” to either of those, then I think the answer she gives is “Due to X factor, I have more work than I can reasonably handle and have been trying to prioritize the most urgent matters. I should have made you aware of this before, can you help me figure out what I need to focus on the most, and what might be redistributed to be taken care of by someone else?”

      If the answer is “Yes” to both of those, then I think the answer she gives is “The majority of these issues are due to coverage problems, both while I was out on leave, and because I’m covering for another position. I’ve raised the concerns about my workload before, I can’t do everything that has been assigned to me because of these issues. Part of the protection of FMLA is supposed to be that I am not penalized for my covered absence, but that’s what this overload feels like. Can we revisit the amount of things that I am responsible for accomplishing?”

    3. orchidsandtea*

      1. Go in prepared with what she HAS accomplished.

      2. Don’t take responsibility for anything that’s not hers. No apologizing for FMLA (“Well, that was an FMLA situation, so we as a company were just following the law there.”) or for the temp’s inadequacy (“Yes, Petronella let X, Y, and Z lapse significantly, and since I’ve been back I’ve been able to do _____ to mitigate that.”).

      3. Point out that she’s been doing two jobs since she came back. Again, list all the accomplishments she can think of.

      4. Be proactive about what she’s doing to mitigate the non-FMLA absences and other productivity problems. “I’ve made this modification to my process to help with X, and I’m looking for a solution to Y in these ways.”

      5. Have suggestions handy to prevent this sort of dumpster fire in the future. Like a competent temp…sheesh.

    4. BRR*

      A) She should point out that she was out on FMLA. If her manager keeps considering FMLA excessive absences I would ask in an inquisitive tone why her FMLA time is being counted as missing work.

      B) I would probably point out what I accomplished in that other position or say something like “Vacant position requires X hours a day which means I can only get to A and B/only make 10 teapots a day.”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      She could take preemptive steps and go in to talk to her boss about this instead of waiting for her review. This would depend on her relationship with her boss. I have done things like this with bosses that were not great bosses and still got good results. Never underestimate the power of showing awareness and concern.

  51. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    My wife is finally going back to work on Monday! So we’ll finally have full paychecks again, rather than disability, and I won’t feel resentful because she gets to sleep in, haha.

  52. Rat Racer*

    I have a new best practice to share: whenever I am on a call with a frustrating co-worker (someone who interrupts, rambles, yells, or otherwise gets my back up) I’ve started writing notes to myself:

    Dear Rat, this is the better, kinder, more evolved part of your brain writing to you to remind you to take deep breaths and don’t let your lizard brain take the wheel. You can do it!

    It is remarkable to me that this actually works, but it does.

    2. Epsilon Delta*

      That is such a good idea! I’ve had a few of those calls this week. Mostly I pretend that I’m on stage in a play, and my role is to be cool and level headed while coworker is being ridiculous, and the audience’s role is to feel outrage on my behalf and laugh out loud.

      1. Rat Racer*

        I like this idea, but think it would give me too much permission to cave to my baser self if I thought I had the support of a large audience of supportive fans.

        I could see the theater strategy working really well in a customer service roll, where getting mad is not an option, and you deal with more blatant crazy.

    5. zora*

      ooooo that’s really good!!! I’m totes stealing it, thank you for sharing! I have a couple of people that do that to me.

      Also, now I’m wondering if it would work for negative self talk. I’m going to give it a try.

  53. trapped by my house*

    My husband has been offered his dream job several states away. We own our home, a small 2 bedroom. It took the prior owners nearly a year to sell it and now we don’t know what to do. Realtors we’ve spoken to have advised us that it will likely take a minimum of 3 months to sell unless we list it for well below what we paid for it 4 years ago. We need to move but we can’t afford to lose money on the house. We have a 15 year mortgage, so our payments are double what would be expected of a home at our price, which means we couldn’t even get in rent what we pay for our mortgage. The new job is not paying for any moving expenses (ah, industries where you “do what you love”, so exploitative!). We also have the problem of not being able to rent in the new city because we have four small dogs and two cats and would get laughed out of the office by any rental agency. So we really need cash out of our house for a down payment. I would hate for him to have to turn down this opportunity just because of the house. Any advice from homeowners or people who have been in similar situations?

    1. Amber Rose*

      An equity loan maybe? We get a lot of ads on the radio for “Need cash now? Own your own home? Call XYZ Acceptance!” Those places are probably shitty but your bank may be able to help you out with a short term or bridge loan of some sort.

    2. Jax*

      Are you for sure unable to rent? I know it is way more difficult to rent with many pets, but maybe offer private landlords (not companies) higher deposit or slightly higher monthly rent? Then, maybe you can refinance your current home to a 30 year to lower the monthly payments, then rent it out until you can afford to sell it for what you need it to be? It’s not a super great solution, but might be workable?

      2. SophieChotek*

        Yes, my thought too. Try to rent.
        (I know being absentee landlord is a pain and it can cost money to subcontract the landlord/problems that arise…but it might end u being cheaper, then selling below-market rate.)
        Also what JAX said — about pets. Do places charge higher for pets sometimes?
        I have some friends that purchased a house in Boston at height of prices and then had to move for her husband’s job; initially they rented it out for the same reason, but know they’ve actually kind of gotten into it, and have made enough to buy other properties (fix them up) and rent out — I actually think they have a pretty good side income from this now.

        1. Jax*

          In my town (a college town) companies charge an extra monthly rent for pets ON TOP OF the non-refundable security deposit. It is ridiculous and a practice I hate.

    3. TCO*

      Are there any improvements (beyond a price cut) that you could make to the house to make it sell more quickly, or is the time to sell just typical in your local market? Realtors should be able to help you decide what the improvement/sale tradeoff is.

      I’d also recommend looking into refinancing if you can. I’d also have a conversation with a mortgage broker about your options for a lower down payment on your new home, if the cash is your most immediate problem.

    4. Karanda Baywood*

      Have you considered having him find a short-term rental out in New State while you stay in your current home?

    5. No Name Yet*

      What about living apart until your house is sold? That is, you stay in Old House (with pets) and at your job if you’re working, and he gets a tiny apartment/room in New Place. That can really suck, and traveling costs can add up, but I know multiple couples who’ve done it, bc of selling a house or waiting to find a job in the new location.

    6. NacSacJack*

      I’d recommend refi’ing into a 30 year bringing your payments down while you take the time to sell it. And if you have equity, take out an HELOC.

    7. Academia Escapee*

      Can your husband move ahead of you and rent a cheap room to start his job, and then you can follow with the zoo and buy a house in the new place once your house sells? That way he still gets to take the job and the stress of the timing is lifted somewhat. The long distance thing will suck for a while, but it might be the best financial route in the long run.

  54. Junior Dev*

    After being laid off in October and job searching for two months, I got a job! Better yet, it’s one I’m fairly excited about. It’s the kind of work (web development) I want to do, it’s in an industry that actually interests me on a personal level, and the commute is actually reasonable! Yay!

    Two things I’d like advice on, if anyone has any:

    * any tips to do well and make a good impression? I’ve already read Alison’s excellent article on how to do well at a new job–I’m wondering if anyone has anything to add. I’m in my mid-20s, have a year of software/web dev experience in two different positions, and I don’t have a CS degree. Also, I think I’ll be the only female engineer there (there are a lot of other things the company does so my department may not be representative of the company as a whole).

    * I’ve had bad experiences with toxic workplaces, emotionally abusive bosses, and abruptly losing my job before. So I’m feeling a bit skittish coming into this one. How do I handle anxiety about this job that’s carrying over from past bad experiences?

    Lastly, I want to say thank you, Alison, for all your great advice–I think it’s one of the reasons I was able to get this job, and negotiate salary for the first time in my life!

    1. Emmie*

      Congratulations! New, positive experiences will reduce your anxiety. Approach new experiences assuming positive intent. You have to be vigilant so you do not carry that toxic environment forward. It’s also pretty common to have a learning curve at a new job, and to be a bit mentally exhausted when you’re starting a new job – especially after being laid off. Make sleep a priority to recharge your mind. It has taken me about 6 months to feel confident at my job when I was at entry and mid level positions. Very good luck to you!

  55. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m being super curmudgeonly today, but….shit I hate when people drink so much at the company party they call out sick the next morning which makes us understaffed and therefore more overloaded with work. ugh.

    1. Rhys*

      Everybody drank too much at the company holiday party this year and we all came in and worked through our hangovers together. It was as much of a bonding experience as the actual party!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      My SO’s all-staff holiday party was last night. Apparently the entire office is hungover and one guy came in wearing clothes he bought at Walmart because he never went home… yikes.

    3. Hear you*

      The one place you should drink less than normal is at the office party. I never can understand why people think this is the time to get hammered.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Cz its’ free.

        And for me, this is the only time I do it. I don’t do it with my family or friends.

      2. Posting anonymously today*

        Just FYI, I’m not saying I do that or condone of getting so shitfaced you can’t make it in to work. But it’s just a reason why they do that.
        I’m OK with happy drunks. It’s the ones who get mean or nasty that are a problem.

      3. Rhys*

        Agreed. What happened at our party this year is that we were told there would be food but it ended up being just like a few tiny fancy hors d’oeuvres which did nothing to defend against the unlimited free booze. So we all got drunk by accident! Luckily nobody embarrassed themselves.

  56. SophistiCaitlin*

    What’s the best admin assistant you’ve ever had? Were they just amazing at taking notes? Distributing info? Keeping track of the office coffee habits?

    I’m switching jobs in January for a role that was just created, supporting a team of civil engineers in a growing office. They’ve never had anyone in this position before, so it’ll be largely up to me to make myself as useful as possible. I’ve been doing admin assistant and customer service for several years now, but always as part of a team, and never without a manager directly in charge of my department. I’m worried that I’ll fumble with the lack of existing structure, so I was hoping to hear from some of you about what you most appreciate in an assistant, for some ideas of where to start. I realize it’s sort of a boring question, and that I’ll of course be working closely with my coworkers to develop a rhythm–I’m just hoping to hit the ground running. Thanks!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Uptight about details. I don’t mean being uptight to other people — I mean in the sense of caring passionately about getting details right, with a healthy paranoia about the ways things could go wrong (which leads them to head that off from the start). That’s a make or break characteristic for an assistant.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Definitely get clarity on what their priorities for your time are, and focus on that. What did they tell you during the hiring process?

      Our admins have a wide range of duties (SharePoint management to ordering lunches) and are fantastic, but we have had them get pretty peeved when asked to do some typical admin duties — people asked them to proof documents, and their reaction was almost “how dare you ask me to do that?” How is the 40-person team supposed to know that they aren’t available to do that? So, yeah, my main thing is to know what the manager wants from you, make it clear to the team that those are the top 5 things you’re focusing on, and that they can ASK you to do other things and you’ll consider if it’s something you know how to do and can fit in, or you’ll elevate it to your manager for final direction.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        Oh–this is important! Also, be really clear from your boss exactly who you should prioritize assisting–especially if it’s a new role, other people in the office may start asking you to do things–even small things–that are much harder to shut down once there’s a precedence. When I was first hired, my boss told me to tell anyone who asked me to do something “Boss asked that all my tasks be routed through her first, so let her know!”

        This was important because I have that innate inner drive to be helpful, and it took a long time to learn to tell people “You should ask Jerrica for that” or “that sounds like a job for Kimber” or “Sorry, Rio, that’s not something I can help you with”. But it’s really important for your efficiency to know your lane and stay in it! (And people don’t actually think less of you for it!)

    4. Gaia*

      Anticipate a need and a problem before it is realized by others – and have a solution in place. If it can go wrong, anticipate it and solve it before it does go wrong. Have backup plans. Be exceptionally organized. Understand the people you support as individuals and their preferences.

    5. zora*

      Since this is a new position, definitely keep your eyes open for what questions to ask. My current boss was really good when I was new at telling me exactly how she wanted me to do certain things, but if these folks haven’t had an assistant before, they might not be aware of those things.

      Keep an eye out and keep a running list of things you start taking over, or see need to be done, and then semi-regularly, maybe every two weeks, when you are face to face with people bring them up. “By the way, I’ve been opening all the mail and putting it in your inboxes, is that working for you? Is there anything different you want me to do with the mail?” Don’t do this every day, they might get overwhelmed with too many questions. But definitely figure out what things need to be brought up. These logistical/operations things are the kinds of things many people don’t think about intentionally, I find it is often my job to think of things they are just taking for granted, and often it makes them realize there is a change that would actually make their job a million times easier.

      Also, start documenting immediately. Create a resource guide either electronically or a hard copy, that is easily accessible to everyone. This will be useful if you ever need to be out, and eventually when you leave in training the next person. Great, neatly organized resources are huge, and people freaking love them when they are done right.

    6. Trixie*

      Adding on to Alison’s comment regarding details, I would add follow up on anything handed your way. Meaning, if you haven’t heard back on something, continue to track progress. When my boss asks me about X, I will reply back to let him I know I rec’d request and will circle back. And then I do, rather than wait for him to ask me about. Similarly, when I am asked to follow up with other departments or businesses, and they haven’t replied back, I follow up again. If I assume they received my request/inquiry despite the radio silence, this usually leads to problems.

    7. Owly*

      Engineers love efficiency, precision and functionality. If my admin takes too long or does something that isn’t straightforward, I get annoyed and sometimes just do the task myself. And like Alison said, details are key to making sure everything is precise and working right.

  57. Allison*

    Job hunting is stressful >_<

    That's not news, but I need to vent about all the things.

    I spent a few days this week internally flipping out because I was sure I'd been ghosted after what I thought had been a fabulous interview. Thankfully, this morning I got an e-mail from the hiring manager/recruiter (I work in talent acquisition, the hiring manager and recruiter are often the same person), saying her meetings keep getting pushed back due to some important people visiting the office, so I feel better now. And I have a couple phone screens today!

    But gahhh, contract ends at the end of the month! Yesterday was my "panic day," or the day I'm officially allowed to be nervous. I can't afford to spend more than a month or so without a job. I had an emergency fund, but then I had to use it and I haven't been able to rebuild it yet. I'm supposed to find out about unemployment and COBRA eligibility today. I don't wanna move back in with my parents :(

    Also, I finally announced on Facebook that I'm job hunting. And as I expected, someone told me about some MLM scheme. Of course. This is why I avoided going public about it. Why does everyone think the answer to a stressful job hunt is SALES? Not everyone wants to be a sales person, not everyone is cut out for it. But I said nothing, no use getting into an argument about it. At least no one has mentioned retail or food service. Yet. My contract is up AFTER Christmas so trying to find a retail job for January doesn't make sense right now.

    So yeah, not fun. It's never fun. I had trouble following the plot details of Rogue One last night because I was so distracted. But it's a good movie, go see it, the ending will blow your mind! Anyway, fingers crossed this will come to a swift and happy ending by new years so I can enjoy that weekend free of stress.

  58. E*

    I just got a very prestigious government internship offer for next summer – however, they placed me in an office that I’m not particularly interested in and is only tangentially related to my long-term career goals (though the federal agency itself does). How should I balance the prestige of the agency itself with the actual work I’d be doing? My instinct is to stall and apply for other things in the meantime but I’m not sure how that would fly with the agency.

    1. misspiggy*

      I’d have thought the prestige of the agency is crucial, if you want to work there or somewhere similar. Don’t underestimate the value of getting to know how the place works, who everyone is and the subtle nuances of how decisions get made and money gets spent. Use every opportunity to explore the organisation and the internship will be well worth it.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I would think some of the networking you can do with/in the office and just learning the ins and out of government job/that specific agency would be worth not being as related to your long-term goals.
      So often, it seems to be about “just getting your foot in the door”…

    3. Rat Racer*

      That happened to me – my advice is that government experience is a key that unlocks lots of doors. It’s very hard to get into the government (in some offices anyway) and many of the more selective divisions make government experience table-stakes for getting in the door. So, I’d say: take the internship, learn what you can, and parlay it into the direction you want to go in when you’re applying for full-time work.

    4. Grits McGee*

      Are you interested in potentially working for the government in the future or is it one of any number of employers you’d be interested in working for? If you do want to work for government, any federal experience you have is a huge stepping stone, no matter what the job actually entails (many people in my agency have started their gov careers this way). If there were other internships that offered better experience (and I mean looks-good-on-a-resume experience, not just more interesting) and gov employment isn’t a goal for you, then it might make more sense to continue to discretely apply for other internships.

  59. AnotherAnony*

    I had a job interview and they said that the person who used to be in the position “left abruptly.” Is this a red flag? I was just in a toxic environment, so I’m being extra cautious.

    1. just another librarian*

      Not necessarily but I would pay attention to any other red flags you might sense. Sometimes people really do leave abruptly without it being the company’s fault.

    2. Murray*

      I would say it’s a red flag but not for the reasons you think. I interpret “left abruptly” as either fired, walked out on the job, or left for a medical reason. Either way, I would caution you to be aware that this means they probably left behind a mess without clear documentation of what they were working on and where they were with the project, who their contacts were, etc etc. I don’t think it’s necessarily a sign of a toxic environment, though.

    3. NaoNao*

      Could be anything!
      Could be “parents became ill, had to move home” or “person had health issues that flared”.

    4. Ama*

      It isn’t necessarily. My predecessor at my current job left abruptly, after only eight months, but it was largely because the job was a poor fit for her (the position is a 50/50 split between two somewhat disparate skillsets and she just couldn’t get comfortable with one of them). It didn’t really have anything to do with the employer, boss, or environment at all.

  60. Poppy*

    Interested in a vote on this one! Company policy says that when you reject a candidate, you should call them to give a personal rejection. Some find this very respectful. Personally, if I were to get a call from a hiring manager, I’d assume I was getting an offer, and then be devastated when it turned out to be a rejection. So I would prefer a thoughtful rejection email. I’ll follow company policy, but interested what people here think about this! Seems like it would vary a great deal by candidate which method was preferred.

    1. trapped by my house*

      I agree with you. The one time I got a rejection phone call I was far more devastated than if it had just been an email because call usually means good news.

    2. CM*

      Any personal communication, either email or phone, would be very welcome. In my experience, many people don’t bother to inform rejected applicants at all, or send them a form letter. I agree with you that email is better because the person doesn’t have to react on the spot, but I’ve appreciated calls too.

      1. Sadsack*

        Agree with this. The rejected candidate can take their time to mentally process the rejection and then follow up if they want feedback. Phone or in person is pretty terrible when you are the one being rejected.

    3. AMD*

      Email. I go at a rejection phone call for a promotion, and the boss explained to me what I had said wrong during my interview that made them pass me up, which was helpful but totally embarrassing and hard to process while at work. Worse, it was kind of a misunderstanding, so I wanted to argue that it wasn’t what I’d meant but couldn’t.

    4. SophieChotek*

      I would think an email would be better. Less chance for candidate to argue.
      If it’s personalize and even gives any feedback (useful) that would be more awesome, but I think a phone call could lead to undue excitement.
      But I agree with CM that so many companies never get back to one, that any follow-up is better than none.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      What? Don’t call people to tell them they’re rejected! That’s what email is for. Good heavens.

    6. Betty*

      Yes, I agree with you. I was phone interviewing with a company & I received a phone call from the hiring manager. I thought she was calling to invite me to an in person interview. Nope, she called to say they were pursuing someone else.

      I would have preferred an email rejection.

      Phone Calls = Something positive!

    8. Annie Moose*

      What do you even say if someone calls to tell you you’re rejected? “Thank you”?? I think in the moment I would just be like “Uhhhh… okay” and hang up, for lack of anything else to say.

      I guess the “right” thing to say would be something like “Thank you for letting me know” or try to sell yourself for the future, “If you ever have any other jobs open up, let me know…”

    9. BRR*

      I prefer email. I know some people have commented previously that they prefer calls but I think more people prefer email.

    10. SeekingBetter*

      As a candidate who did receive a rejection phone call after two in-person interviews for a role I was really interested in, I greatly appreciated that over no response or a VERY generic “thank you for applying” email. And even if it was a form email that goes like “thank you for interviewing blah blah, but unfortunately we chose a stronger candidate blah blah” is still better than a no response.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      Email for a rejection; call for an offer. Follow up offer with email so details can be in writing. I do not want to talk to you if you are rejecting me, unless you’re recommending me for something else you think I’m perfect for, but even that can be covered in email.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      If I had to make calls because of the policy, I would let people know that this was SOP, so they would know my call was on the horizon either way. There’s not much else you can do here. And it is a polite thing to let people know what to expect.

  61. Addison*

    Hey all, OP from the crappy clerk saga…

    I had my annual employee review on Wednesday. It went… shockingly well. I was bracing myself for a lot of horsecrap about me having a bad attitude and needing to play better with others, or maybe a sucky work output, or who knows what. I was expecting to get slammed. Instead my boss spent the whole time telling me how good I am at what I do and that she was especially pleased with how I’ve “grown thicker skin” this year (I started to Fry Squint at that phrasing until I realized what she was getting at–I am definitely an emotional person, I don’t always take stress well and in the past I know I tended to blow up occasionally when pressure got to be too much for me; I also tended to take things personally, and this was all stuff I wanted to improve on this year). She was super into all the communication studies I’d done which included some how-to books from our learning library… and I also cited several posts on Allison’s blog along the lines of taking criticism, how to stop softening your language, controlling your emotions at work, etc… I even printed out some of them and showed her (she’s not super computer savvy but I took the url off just in case she happened to want to log on and see for herself… I thought she might recognize the posts about Clerk so ehhh, I’ll wait until those are a little older and then tell her, I think. lol). She just kept saying how much I’d improved and how much more assertive I am – and also that I acknowledged and recognized my problem areas and was actively working on them.

    I did lead from that into the problems with Clerk and how utterly bamboozled I was that this was allowed to go down the way it went down and she said she had talked to Clerk about it already (has eval was a few hours before mine), and said that because of the whole “running to mommy” thing she really thought it would be better for me to handle it on my own (some kind of training exercise?!?!). I said while that’s all well and good it just really bothers me that I explicitly said “I’m being harassed” and she called it “children squabbling.” She apologized for mishandling it and asked if there was anything she could do now. I said that I had mostly taken care of the worst of it – I put on headphones and ignore him if he’s being obnoxious and if he gets mean I tell him “don’t be rude” really sternly and that takes care of it but in the future if things get out of hand it would be nice to know that she’d take it seriously, and she said she would.

    I also brought up the derogatory way she’d talked about my mom after the holiday party (mentioned it further down in the comments on that update post- basically they said she was acting trashy and suggested they thought she had cheated at our casino games to win the big prize of the night, both of which were very not true) and she apologized for that too, insisted she had just been relaying feedback from the higher ups and that it wasn’t necessarily her, and I said it didn’t matter who it was, the fact that it was said at all was really petty and gross. Like… it’s my mom for crying out loud. I got a major apology for that one.

    She asked me if I would be candid and tell her whether I was looking for other jobs and I said that I had looked a bit but the fact that I felt I needed to really bummed me out because I never wanted to leave. We talked about my desired career path (which included my boss’ job as it were) and she was really supportive of it and said it was important that I wanted to grow and that while she couldn’t promise me a promotion right now (or any time in the immediate future) she said I should definitely apply as soon as the opportunity arose, and that she hoped she could continue to facilitate me wanting to stay here and move up the ladder.

    So… yeah, really bizarrely good. It doesn’t necessarily re-endear me for life, I’m still skeptical and I’m VERY interested to see what my annual wage increase will look like this year (hopes not high). I think what kind of a raise I wind up with will dictate whether I stay or go, ultimately. I’ve just been let down so many times here, my pay isn’t great, and no amount of love for what I do can surmount the sheer amount of stress I’ve been under for the last couple of years. At this point it would take a really WOW increase to cement me in this place and that’s… almost a guaranteed not gonna happen no matter how great my review was, so.

    I really appreciate the advice and support you all offered. No matter what happens it’s heartening to know there are people on my side. Maybe someday I’ll send in a finale where everything is happy and exciting and Clerk-free but for now I guess I have to just keep swimming :)

    1. Junior Dev*

      They insulted your MOM? Oh no no no no. “Just relaying feedback?” That’s the biggest load of BS I’ve heard in a long time. Nope.

    2. not really a lurker anymore*

      This is another update from the poster of “my coworker responds to everything I ask him to do with profanity and “your mom” jokes”

    3. Annie Moose*

      Well, hey, some happy things coming out of this! I guess time will tell whether boss takes all this feedback to heart and if anything actually changes in the future, but it’s a start.

    4. Jenbug*

      I am glad your manager seems to be taking things a bit more seriously. Hopefully things will improve while you are looking for something else!

    5. Sherm*

      Wow, that was admirably brave of you to take your boss to task like that! I know it can be so intimidating — this is the person that could fire you, after all. It seems that she has an unlimited supply of excuses as to why she won’t deal with Clerk. And I wonder whether she is the type that likes to stir up some drama and then watch the aftermath from the sidelines (hence “relaying” the comments about your mom). She is not a winner, but you just had a win.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      If nothing else, perhaps you can get a good reference from your boss when you leave. Because this place still stinks on ice. The fact that they never did anything about this rude clerk speaks volumes. No raise on earth would make me want to stay there past the point of amassing enough to facilitate running like the wind.

    1. SophieChotek*

      In your field? Or just any job to make a little extra money?

      I work at a coffee shop for extra money (and free coffee).
      Luckily the manager has known me for years, so doesn’t care I only work a little bit. But I’m on the list to fill in during emergencies and I do my best to do that too, so other staff know I want to support them and am not just working “when I feel like it”…

    2. Grits McGee*

      If you have teaching experience, I have a friend that grades SAT essay questions for Pearson in her off time. She can do it from home and the pay is pretty decent ($18/hr I think?).

    3. MissGirl*

      I make fairly decent money as a ski instructor and get ski benefits for me and all my dependents. All the workers at the resort no matter the position get the same perks. Do you have a hobby you could turn into a few bucks? Usher at a play or sporting event?

  63. SJ*

    I was the commenter who asked for advice for her possible-Asperger’s postdoc brother last month.

    I wish I had great news to share — but we just found out a few days ago that he has stage 1 oral cancer. Chances are he’ll be okay, but he has to have tongue and lymph node surgery next month, and when I was on the phone with him last night, he kept coming back to worrying about what his jerk boss’s reaction will be and what he’s going to do about some important work meetings in January when he’s recovering. Recovering from cancer surgery and his work is the first thing on his mind because it’s all he’s been programmed to care about.

    My heart just breaks for him. All of this work and personal mess and now he’s got a super random cancer when he has zero risk factors for it. This has honestly and truly been a terrible year.

    1. Blackout*

      Oh wow, that’s really tough. I don’t have any helpful advice, but I’m so sorry that this is happening.

    4. Jean*

      Sorry to hear your news. May your brother’s health care providers be wise, skilled, and kind and may his boss find some reason (holiday season? unexpected personal happiness?) to become a nicer person.

  64. CompletelyFried*

    Any advice on dealing with a severe case of burnout? I’ve been working on a massive project for over a year which is finally complete but has left me just drained. I hate coming into work and cringe every time my phone rings. Unfortunately I’m on call 24/7/365 so disconnecting from work is near impossible. Seems like every day off, nights, vacations, doesn’t matter there’s always an issue they need to bother me about. I haven’t been able to make it through a round of golf this year without spending at least two holes on the phone. I’m struggling to find a way to recharge my batteries, any advice?

    1. Junior Dev*

      Stop answering your phone off hours.

      If you think that would cause problems you can have a meeting where you lay out that this situation is not sustainable and you need to work with them to find a solution where you aren’t constantly taking calls and emails off-hours. They don’t own your every second just because they pay you to do a job.

      I have a friend who finally started setting boundaries on this–before, he would be bombarded with work questions literally every hour he was awake. I’m so glad he is finally trying to stand up to them. You need to do the same, and if you can’t, find another job.

      1. zora*

        It sounds like the job requires being on call, so I don’t think this is realistic.

        But can you put ANY limits on the on call? Like say you need to be off for x hours per week, even if it’s just 6-8pm on Friday or something? Is your boss at all supportive, will they be upset if you leave, do they think you do a good job? Can you say “this is not sustainable for me right now. Can we come up with some kind of backup for at least a set amount of time per month? Because otherwise, I will burn out completely and have to be committed to a psychiatric facility, seriously, I’m that close to the edge.” Any halfway decent boss will understand this and come up with at least a short-term plan to give you a break.

        The only solution to burn out that has ever worked for me is taking a set amount of time off and completely turning off my brain. It took me a few months to de-burnout from one job, though, so just a 2 week vacation might not be enough.

        Can you at least put your phone on silent for 15 minutes every other night and just sit in the quiet and meditate? Would they be able to wait for 15 minutes for a call back, even if something major happened?

        My therapist recommended a phone app “Calm” that has timed guided meditations that are hugely helpful right now. They even have 3-minute or 5 minute options. That is really helping me when I am having anxiety and my brain is totally freaking out, to have a few minutes of quiet and breathing, and I feel much better getting back into work.

    2. AliceBD*

      Can you go somewhere on vacation where you won’t (or “won’t”) have phone service? Doesn’t even have to be out of the country or on a cruise or anything — I know the phone service in the rural areas near where I grew up is super crappy, so when I go on vacation there I make sure my boss knows I’m not available on these days for emergencies because I won’t have service.

  65. AAAANONNNN242*

    Yesterday I spent $80 (which I really couldn’t afford to spare) in Uber fare to attend a holiday party that I didn’t really want to go to. The office always holds parties in restaurants pretty far away from the office and I’ve previously declined invites to the two other parties the office put on in the last six months that I’ve been working here because I don’t have a car and there’s no easy or affordable way to get to these events. I’m the only person in the department who doesn’t have a car. Previously I made up lame excuses about why I couldn’t come because I didn’t want to tell people about my financial situation. For the holiday party I felt extra pressure from people in the department to come (because I hadn’t attended any of the previous events) and my manager even called me to make sure I was going. Would it be reasonable to ask to be reimbursed for the Uber fare?

    **If you’re curious, it logistically wasn’t possible to hitch a ride with coworkers to/from the event

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      No, it’s not reasonable. You made the decision to do that. The company doesn’t owe you a thing. Why don’t you simply tell them, “Hey, the restaurants chosen are always too far away from work. I can’t afford to get there, so unfortunately I’m unable to attend.”

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Only if you had cleared it ahead of time. Next time, do that! Say this: “I’d love to go but I don’t have a car. I could take an Uber if you’d be up for reimbursing it, but it would be about $80.”

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yeah– I know you wanted to keep your financial situation private, but the consequence of that is you have to make certain decisions. If you had said, “I wish I could, but I don’t have a car and the Uber fare isn’t in my budget right now,” they could have offered solutions, or they might have stopped pressuring you. They may even have offered the fare. Unfortunately, the time has passed.

  66. Regular going anon for this*

    I really like my admin job, but sometimes I worry I don’t have enough to do.

    No one in my department has expressed concern about that (at least not to me). If anything, they’ve been conscious of making sure I’m not overwhelmed. I feel like me being around is generally helpful and that my presence has kept things more organized. It’s a small department and I’m the only dedicated admin they have. I’m always around to answer the phone, help guests, accept packages, etc. And I really do try to pitch in whenever I can and take on additional projects when the opportunity presents itself. I’ve been able to help with things that were neglected when the department was without an admin for a while. And there are busy times where I have a lot to do. But honestly, there are a lot of days when very little happens and I have a lot of “free” time at my desk in between tasks. I respond quickly to requests, but aside from being available, I don’t always have a ton to do. I’m not certain how much people realize that, and I’m a little scared of being cut down to part-time or laid off. But I don’t want to rock the boat, either. I really like this job, and I feel like it’s hard to have a good balance because if I did have a lot more work, it’d be harder for me to be available when people need me, or run the front desk effectively. And how busy we are tends to fluctuate.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      One option is to shadow the people you’re supporting for a few days, just taking notes on things that cause them a little bit of trouble and potential ways to manage that.

      So for instance, I go to reception once a week and demand buckets of post-its, because otherwise everyone has to walk to another building every time they run out. So I play Office Supplies Fairy and save them all some time. I’ve reorganized our digital files, done a bunch of department-specific stuff, and advocated to the manager for things that will help morale. (Free coffee. Our own damn post-its.)

    2. Gladiator*

      Sometimes this can be by design, I feel. If you were super busy all the time, you might not have bandwidth to be super responsive or to drop everything to help with emergencies, as admins sometimes need to be able to do. If no one else is worried about your downtime, don’t feel guilty about it. If you’re bored, look for ways in which you can be helpful.

    3. Student*

      Ask for tasks that are easy to do in between urgent requests, so you can drop them quickly when needed.

      That may be data entry, transcribing notes, sorting somebody’s email for them, stuffing envelopes for a conference, curating a department wiki. Your boss will probably have some ideas as long as you clearly explain the need for stuff you can put down easily.

    4. Kai*

      You could ask your boss if there are any long-term, not-high-priority projects that you could work on during down time.

    5. IowaGirl*

      When you have down time at work it’s totally fair to spend that time brushing up on skills or reading up on the industry you’re in. So, for example, I’m a de facto project manager but have very little formal training in that area. If I had down-time, I’d see what free information I could find on-line to help me with that (I’m sure there’s lots).

  67. Clever Name*

    Thermostat wars. Who else deals with this? I totally understand that different people are comfortable at different temperatures, but it drives me crazy when people refuse to dress appropriately for the weather and then insist on being cold when the temperature in the building dips below 80 degrees. Wear a damn sweater!

    Two of my coworkers do this, and it drives me batty. It’s December, and we live in a cold climate, and yet I never see them wearing what I would consider to be sufficiently warm clothing while constantly complaining of being cold. One will wear tissue-thin blouses or gauzy “sweaters” and the other wears shoes with no socks and also rolls up their pant legs. Did I mention it’s December? Meanwhile, I’m sweating it out in my sweater and boots while they blast the heat.

    1. Zooey*

      A. Try layering — a lighter blouse under a chunky sweater that you can take off when it gets too warm, for example.
      B. Ask if they can compromise (“I overheat easily when the temperature gets around 80. I know you guys tend to get cold, so can we find on a temp that is comfortable for both of us?”)
      C. Talk to your manager. The solution could be as simple as purchasing space heaters for your cold coworkers.

        1. Clever Name*

          I’m very adept at dressing for the temperature. I’m just peeved when people insist on wearing light clothing when it’s in the 30s outdoors and then make everyone else uncomfortable because they care more about fashion than dressing for the weather. Totally different than one officemate I had who would blast a heater but would also be wearing boots, a dress shirt, and a thick sweater. I just dressed lighter and never complained.

    2. the_scientist*

      Something’s wrong with the heating in my building, so my desk is a hellscape while people on the other side of the office are wearing their winter coats at their desks. I’m currently wearing a t-shirt, jeans (rolled up) and shoes with no socks…. and I have a film of sweat all over my upper body.

      Everyone who comes by this part of the building comments on how hot it is here, but our admin and facilities staff aren’t inclined to do anything about it (and honestly, I don’t know how much they can even do) so no one has said anything.

      I’m tired of being dehydrated and head-achy because of how dry and hot it is at work. Thank goodness I’m taking a lot of time off for the holidays!

      1. Clever Name*

        That sounds awful. I once had an office that was frigid in the winter and boiling in the summer. My officemate and I assumed it was because it was an old building and we had windows on 3 sides (it was an amazing office- it looked out onto an airport runway), so we just ran a space heater in the winter and escaped the heat in other parts of the building in the summer. The department hired a new HVAC guy who was horrified at how awful the temperature was when he visited our office. He came back with some tools and did some simple routine maintenance on our unit and topped the freon off and lo and behold, all our temperature problems were solved. :/

    3. T3k*

      Ah, thermostat wars. At the two places I worked at since college, both have had this. Thankfully it wasn’t that bad at the first place, because we all sat beside a drafty window, so while the temp. was high, those who needed it colder were pretty fine, and I just wore my big winter coat inside while I worked (it wasn’t too bad on my fingers, thankfully).
      Second place though, ugh. I’m all for compromise, but when their idea was to put the AC at 65 as soon as it hit 75 outside, yeah, no. (and we’re in an area that typically sees 90-100 during the summer so you can just imagine how well that went). They eventually dug up an old space heater they had in the back for me to use in my little office space and that helped out a great deal.

    4. Zahra*

      My personal preference when working at a desk is 77 degrees (25 C). I am not bothered by the heat until we get to 85 (30 C).

      Let’s say I’m used to being cold in the office. My personal minimum is: I need to be able to work without feeling like I should wear gloves because my hands are too cold. Then I keep a shawl, sweater, cardigan to cover my upper half. Right now, I’ve repurposed a babywearing wrap, but I’ve used sweaters in the past and one job gave us hoodies, which became my “I’m cold and I need to wear something more” uniform. It’s branded and too casual for this office, or I’d still use it at work. They bought something with a nice fabric thickness instead of going for cheap stuff.

    5. KR*

      My boss lets me control the thermostat because my desk is literally right on top of the base board and right in front of the AC. Since we have so many computers and switches and servers in our office, we’re one of the few in our building who has control over the temperature in their office. When I first started working here though, my boss asked me to do something on a computer near a window. The window was open and it was so cold I was wearing my winter coat and my hands were going numb. I was 16 and thought that if he wanted the window closed he would have closed it and that he would get mad if I asked to close the window, so I just sat there for an hour and a half typing with my fingers half frozen! ahah

    6. Chaordic One*

      Yes. This is not the time of year for sleeveless, low-cut blouses; bare-midriffs and short skirts. Sometimes you just don’t get the option of looking good.

  68. WS*

    My friends just invited me to a cabin for New Year’s, from the 30th through the 2nd, and now I have to see if I can wrangle that Friday and Monday off so I can join them (the cabin is in the next state over or I’d just go for Saturday/Sunday, but I don’t really want to do that much driving on back-to-back days).

    So today is gonna be spent scrambling to get my work in order and get as much done as possible so when my boss gets back to the office this afternoon and I ask for the days off I can also tell him that X is done, Y and Z will be completed early next week, and A is on track to be completed the following week. We have a super lenient time off policy so as long as I can prove that I’m on top of things I should be okay… but wish me luck anyway!

  69. HisGirlFriday*

    I am a long-time reader but first-time poster/commenter.

    I had my daughter in July and returned to work ~8 weeks later. Since then, I have been working from home 2 days/week and in the office 3 days/week, a set-up that is supposed to expire at the end of the year.

    For background, I work at a very small company (six FT, one PT person.) My maternity leave was the first time in the company’s history that mat leave had to be addressed — the only other employee to ever get pregnant planned from the get-go not to return to work. We’re not a non-profit, but we have a Board of Directors that our CEO reports to (as do the rest of us, really.)

    My job title includes the word ‘director,’ although no one reports to me and I don’t manage anyone. However, before the new overtime law was blocked, the plan was to raise my salary to above the threshold and reclassify me as ‘exempt.’ The plan is still to reclassify me, because according to our attorney, I am mis-classified under the duties test and should always have been classified as exempt.

    My organization is a local version of an organization that has both state and national levels. Within my state, I am one of 12 people who do my job. Our jobs frequently involve late nights and/or early mornings, weekend work, and work outside the normal 9-5 of our days.

    One of our Board members has privately told me that she thinks I should ask for the ability to continue to WFH in the new year, because she thinks I deserve it and that my work speaks for itself. My boss/the CEO has always been resistant to WFH because (a) she is technophobic and doesn’t want to WFH so she doesn’t want people under her to WFH for fear the Board would expect that of her and (b) the optics of the situation, that some people get to WFH and others (like the receptionist) don’t and (c) because on some level she has some micromanaging tendencies.

    Since I’ve been WFH, I have done all my work in as timely a manner as when I am in the office, if not faster, and I have been more productive (because I don’t have a 45-minute one-way commute, so I start earlier and work later with fewer interruptions.)

    I plan to meet with my boss next week to propose continuing this arrangement in the new year, but I’m looking for advice from managers or other directors about how to best frame this request.

    1. Girasol*

      It might help to remind them of the downsides of not working from home: the commute time when you can’t do anything for yourself or for them and the distractions that offices sometimes present that home does not. At least, your home must not because you’ve demonstrated better productivity there.

  70. Dzhymm*

    Management question from a small-business owner: are there any useful scripts for the case when I remind an employee of something and they get all defensive? For example, me: “Remember that this particular teapot finish scratches easily; wear gloves when you handle it”. Problem employee: *dramatic eyeroll* “I KNOW HOW TO DO MY JOB! Why do you keep questioning my competence like that?”

    Another time I suggested how she could do something better and she shot back with “I’m not perfect! Nobody’s perfect! Why do you keep finding fault with my work?”

    That employee is no longer working for me for this and a variety of reasons (as time went on she reverted further and further into snotty-teenager behavior; I called it “40 going on 14”), but some ideas for when this might happen again

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Wow. Sounds like she was a real headache.

      In the future, you should say something like, “Jane, it is not appropriate to speak to me like that. I am your manager and part of my job is making sure you are doing yours correctly. When I give you feedback, I need you to respond to it in an appropriate manner and make the corrections needed. Can you do this?”

    2. Gaia*

      Oh my. I’ve dealt with employees like this. It is important to address it so good for you for asking for verbiage. I usually go with some variation of

      “As your manager, it is my job to ensure you receive feedback on your work so that you can keep improving. I need you to hear this feedback and respond in a professional manner and that does not include defensive or dramatic language or actions such as [insert actual example of what they said or did]. Can you do that?”

      Then stop talking and make them say yes or no. If they say no, then the conversation switches to a talk about how if they cannot accept feedback professionally, this may not be the role for them and that if this behavior continues, it will mean their job is at risk. Then ask again – can they commit to receiving feedback professionally?

    3. Student*

      Your employee responded completely inappropriately, but is there any kernel of truth in it that you can take away?

      For the first one, if there’s no actual problem that you’re addressing in her performance, just you kibitzing, then maybe you are micromanaging too much. It’s one thing if you caught her not wearing gloves appropriately, but it’s another if that’s not the case. Your employees only need reminders on how to do their job when something isn’t working right and during their training phase – it’s important to show you trust them when they’ve been doing their job appropriately. If some people need reminders on how to do their job, keep those reminders targeted to the people who need them and to the topics that they are struggling with.

      For the second one, how often are you making these suggestions on how to do something better? Are they suggestions, or are they requirements you’re stating as suggestions? Are there costs you aren’t considering, like the amount of extra time it takes to do something your way compared to the employee’s way, or other barriers? How important is it that it’s done your way? You should balance exerting your proper authority to get the job done correctly with some awareness that not all battles are worth fighting, and some humbleness that your way may sometimes not be the best way or the only way.

      No way for me to judge from my keyboard, of course, but I think it’s good practice for managers to reflect on their decisions and actions frequently.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Problem employee: *dramatic eyeroll* “I KNOW HOW TO DO MY JOB! Why do you keep questioning my competence like that?”

      Me: Eye-rolling is not necessary here and it is not acceptable. If you know how to do your job then how come there are scratches on these teapots? I have told you before that you must wear gloves. This will be a write up. A third time will mean dismissal. I cannot sell scratched teapots. If I cannot make sales I can not write your pay check. It is that simple.

      “I’m not perfect! Nobody’s perfect! Why do you keep finding fault with my work?”
      Right, no one is perfect. That is why we have checks and double checks here. You can expect from time to time I will point things out to you. It’s part of the job we do here. In order to do this job you will need to accept constructive instruction. Can you do that?

  71. Grayson*

    TL;DR: Grayson has trouble adjusting to the cultural fit when told it’s supposed to be one way and it isn’t.

    Background: I transitioned from a highly structured relatively toxic government environment to a much more relaxed government environment. When I came onto this position, I was informed that we were allowed to manage our own time, as long as we made our hours and were available for assignments when they came up. “Lovely,” I thought, “because there’s shit I need to do!” (Life errands that can’t be done outside of normal business hours. Doctor, dentist, etc, etc.) I proceeded to dive right into my new job; and to do and learn wonderful things.

    The rub: Two months in my cat got a UTI. I had to take her to A LOT of veterinary appointments. I’m talking 6 appointments over the course of two months. (She’s better now.) I always let my supervisor know where I’d be, and what I’d be doing. I also go to therapy twice a month, and it takes 1.5 hours to get there. These appointments never conflicted with our course assignments, and I still made my hours. I came to find out through a fellow coworker that my supervisor has been upset at the frequency of my appointments, because to him having butts in chairs is a necessity. (Never mind that our butts in chairs don’t really matter unless we’re teaching.)

    My frustration: I absolutely understand that this is both a workplace culture, and cross-cultural communication. My supervisor is an Afghan-American, and they are a culture that values saving face, non-confrontation and the like. But gorramit, why can’t he just be more American than Afghan!? *sigh*

    1. Zooey*

      I think you need to meet with him and basically say, “I want to make sure we’re on the same page. When I started here, I was told X, and as you know, I’ve been doing X. But I get the sense your expectations are actually more along the lines of Z.” Either he will tell you that you are completely fine to keep doing what you’re doing, and you won’t have to worry about this anymore, or you’ll find out that you need to adjust your hours.

      There are plenty of American-born managers who don’t handle confrontation well either. The best way to counter that is to be polite and direct, and approach it from a place of “let’s solve this together”.

      1. Grayson*

        I’ve actually done that in the past, and because of the way his interesting breed of culture mixes it’s not a good approach. I received some tips/tricks to approach him about things I have questions on from a current instructor who’s much more used to handling him. (Emails, as I’ve found, help someone save face.) Mostly I just wanted to vent. It’s useful to know that other people hear my pain. :-D (Thank you for the advice!)

        (Also, the fact that he’s Afghan-American is relevant because we teach courses on Afghanistan and Pakistan, and I’m using my skillset here. I’m not attempting to single him out for his background, in case anyone was concerned.)

        1. Student*

          You may be trying to use your skill set on your supervisor, but I think it’s blinded you to the fact your supervisor is a specific individual, not a cultural case study. So is your co-worker.

          Thus far, all you say is “I came to find out through a fellow coworker that my supervisor has been upset at the frequency of my appointments, because to him having butts in chairs is a necessity.” and you imply that your supervisor has said no such thing to you, and your supervisor failed to take you up on at least one attempt at discussing it.

          So, two things here:
          (1) If your supervisor isn’t actually complaining about your performance to you, or asking you to do something differently, that is on HIM. He has to tell you that he wants you to do something differently if he actually wants you to change – that is his job, and you don’t need to try to do it for him. If he doesn’t tell you to change, and nothing bad is happening because of your actions, and you are within company rules, just keep doing what you are doing. It may be the cultural hang-up you are guessing about, or he may have decided your value outweighs your inconvenient schedule, or he may not actually care as much as you think he does.
          (2) If your co-worker says one thing to your face, and your supervisor says something else to your face, you should take the co-worker’s statement with a grain of salt, not the supervisor’s statement. Maybe the co-worker blew something the supervisor said out of proportion, maybe the co-worker is jealous of your schedule because he thinks you are slacking, maybe the co-worker is a bit of a drama llama, maybe your co-worker has some different cultural issue that you have yet to psychoanalyze from your arm chair. No matter what, the supervisor’s statement outranks the co-worker’s statement.

          1. Grayson*

            Hey, it’s a really comfy armchair! I’ve got my book on “Winning Internet Arguments on the Outernet”, a cat and a cup of tepid coffee.

            You make some good points, and the *lightbulb* moment for me was “If a conversation hasn’t been had, that’s on them.” Fair point, Student, fair point.

            1. catsAreCool*

              About “If a conversation hasn’t been had, that’s on them.”, that’s true, but not all managers are good about this. Some don’t have the conversation until review time. It might be good to just ask about this.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Lots of energy coming off your posts. I recommend trying to match the pacing of the person you are talking to. If you are talking to a laid back person, then dial back your own energy. If you are talking to Rapid Rhonda, then go for it, use that energy.

          In order to have a discussion all terms must be defined. Probably happens most when terms mean one thing to one person and something else to the other person. Manage your time would be the phrase to check here. Ask him what managing your time means to him. What does he consider normal?

          It could be that I have misread this but it appears that you have had five absences a month for two months. That is an average slightly greater than one per week. That is a lot for a new job. My bias is that I have worked jobs where one absence a year was punishable by firing squad. I would recommend showing concern for all these absences and letting him know that you like the job and the job is your priority even though you have had a run of bad luck the last couple months.

          And um, finitely do not say, ” there’s shit I need to do!” We all have that stuff that we absolutely need to take care of. Saying that you have stuff to do kind of feels like you don’t realize that everyone else does also. Better to ask how do people handle doctor’s appointments, etc around here. It could be that he wants x number of people in the office at all times. Or it could be that no one takes more than one day off per month. Find out what is going on.

          The problem with reducing things down to culture is that it solves nothing. It does not get into the nuts and bolts of what is necessary/important to this company. I have known many bosses from all different backgrounds who speak in general terms and then are disappointed by what people do next. They expect employees to mind read. Tell him that you are willing to work with what is going but you need a clearer picture of what is expected from you. Let him know that you want to hear from him personally if you are missing key points again.

  72. Amber Rose*

    Tips on keeping focused just prior to the holidays? We’re on skeleton staff and I have literally no work to do so I have no idea what to do with myself next week. Or today, really.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Self-development? Reading the archives of AAM/other blogs you find helpful would be good. Maybe do a course online or watch informative YouTube videos.

      I’m in the same position right now, and I’ve been catching up on current events in my field.

  73. Gregory*

    I’ve been working on integrating members of an office in a different country into the team in my country (teaching them how to use our system, what our policies are, getting them working alongside my own team) over the last few months and I’m pretty much at my wit’s end right now. They have so much suspicion and mistrust toward the rest of the company based on how their office was treated by their previous management that it’s nearly impossible to get them to take any initiative or put any faith into me and my team. It doesn’t help that I’m currently working with them just over the phone rather than in person or at least via teleconference. I get it to an extent because stuff in their office was really messed up for a long time but I’m just trying to help them! It’s like trying to teach a feral kitten to love again, I swear to g.

    1. Alice*

      That is such a great metaphor. I hope the litter of feral kittens grows up to become well-adjusted cats, thanks to your help!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It can be done. Hang in there. You know what to do, you walk has to match your talk. Don’t gossip/malign. Apologize when you are wrong, etc. The rest is time.

  74. Stranger than fiction*

    Recently, one of my coworkers began getting bombarded with debt collector calls for another coworker (she obviously used the other’s cell number and name as a contact without her consent). Is this something she should just address with the coworker (she already tried and the coworker played dumb and said she had no idea how they got her number) or should a manager be made aware if this?

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Manager, I think. Even in a non-blamey way: “This inexplicable thing happened affecting both of us and I want it resolved, what do you advise?”

      1. Zooey*

        Agree with this. Or if you have an IT/telecom support staff, you can ask them first about blocking some of the numbers. That way, when you go to the manager you can say that you’ve tried to resolve it that way as well.

        1. Stranger than fiction*

          She blocked at least one number already that I know of, but they just call back from a different number the next time.

    2. Audiophile*

      Whoa did she use this person’s personal information besides their name and phone number? That’s highly concerning.

    3. Not Karen*

      Neither, she should address it with the debt collector. It is illegal for a debt collector to harass the debtor.

      2. Someone*

        You can ask them not to call you again, but in my experience, the debt eventually gets sold on to another agency, who then starts calling you, ad infinitem. And you get on weird call lists. I have a cell phone number that belonged to someone with debt problems before I got it, and 10 years later, it still affects the calls I get.

    4. E*

      She can tell the debt collectors to not call that number and that should be the end of the calls. If not, she can report the collection agency who will be fined for breaking collection law.

      1. Natalie*

        The FDCPA provides for a private right of action rather than fines. That is, you have to sue. The Federal Trade Commission sues occasionally, but only in pretty big cases.

    5. NaoNao*

      Yeah, the scripting here is: (I used to be a collector)

      “Please remove this number and BURN it off the account (that means mark it as DO NOT CALL and remove it from contact list). I am not [so and so] and I don’t have contact information for so and so (or if she does, give it to them!). If you continue to contact me looking for so and so after I’ve asked you to stop, that’s considered harassment and I’ll have to take further action.”

      Using the term “burn it off the account” will twig most collectors to the fact that either you are, have been, or know a collector and aren’t just blowing hot air.

    6. BRR*

      I would go back to the coworker, talk with a manager because if I was a manager I would want to know if one of my coworkers used another’s number for debt collection, and be explicitly clear to the collector.

    7. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      You said her cell, not workphone, right? I’d say this is something to deal with at the coworker level. Honestly, if they are just looking for coworker’s(CW’s) contact information, give it and be done with it (give CW a head’s up as a courtesy). “You have the information/number I have. I can’t pass any messages–all I’d do is call her anyway and leave the same message you are giving me.”

      I got to this point after asking repeatedly not to be a reference for someone that keeps putting me down as one. :| They tend not to call me back after that.

      If she does it again I might get management involved… seems more malicious at that point.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      In my state they can’t call a person at work. Yes, the manager needs to hop on the horn and tell them to stop. If you can’t get your manager to do this, then tell them yourself that you are reporting them.

  75. Natalie B.*

    Hello everyone! I’m new around here but have been reading as much as I can of Alison’s site since I found it a few months ago. My question requires a bit of backstory. I was recently given a large raise (like 30%+) at my job (I’m a state employee at a particular agency) because I got an offer from another agency. State HR policy states that agencies can make a counteroffer for “critical” employees, so my agency countered to keep me, and I gladly accepted; same job title, same responsibilities, just much higher pay. To achieve this, however, my director (I report to the deputy director, and she reports to the director, so this is boss’s boss) had to go to his boss (a deputy commissioner) and HR to get them to sign off on it. They both did (after some persuasion from my director), but then my director also had to take it to the Commissioner (agency head/my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss) and get the Commissioner to approve it too. Again, my director explained my value to the agency, and the Commissioner agreed to sign off on the increase to keep me within the agency. All of this is great news, and I’m ecstatic about it! But my question is about “thank you” notes. I will definitely be giving notes to my boss and director, but I’m not sure if I should send anything to the HR Director, the Deputy Commissioner, or the Commissioner, thanking them. It wouldn’t be “Thank you so much for the raise!” but rather something more like “Thank you for agreeing to invest in retaining me for the agency. I enjoy working at [agency], and look forward to putting my knowledge, skills, and abilities to good use at [agency] for the foreseeable future.”

    So, does anyone have any advice for me? Do you think I should send a note to the HR Director? Deputy Commissioner (my boss’s boss’s boss)? Commissioner?

    Thank you for reading!

    1. Zooey*

      I think the only people who you should send thank you notes to are your boss and director. They are the ones who went to bat for you — everyone else was just doing their job and making a business decision. It’s sort of weird to formally thank people for that.

    2. Anon in NOVA*

      This is exactly how my agency works, and I personally would only thank the deputy director and director. The deputy commissioner/ commissioner handle so many of these they likely won’t remember, especially if you don’t interact with them directly as part of your duties. When I got a raise that required commissioner approval, I simply thanked the director for taking the time and effort to do that on my behalf, and thanked them in a way that demonstrated it wasn’t just about the money, but that I appreciated it as a demonstration of their commitment to their agency and employees.
      I would also suggest altering the wording… maybe less about you and what a good investment you are (you’ve already proven that), and focusing more on THEM? Thank them for continuing to go above and beyond for their employees, let them know that you value that aspect of your work environment and feel lucky to have leadership that is willing to go to bat for you and their employees, and that you look forward to another great year with X agency.

      1. Natalie B.*

        Thanks for the response…I’m also in VA, so that helps me a lot! I was only going to use that wording for the higher level people whom I don’t interact with regularly; I know my deputy director and director well enough to write them meaningful notes that will go over well.

        The main reason that I was thinking of sending a note to those above my director is because the Commissioner announced to my director that if he (director) felt so strongly about retaining me (as the future of my department, no less), then he (Commissioner) was going to need to start spending more time with me to get to know me. I work in the building maintenance department, so my director is called to the Commissioner’s office at least once a week, often daily, and the intent is to begin succession planning for the director to retire. Therefore, while I don’t work closely with any of them currently, it seems that I will be working more closely with some of them in the fairly near future.

        Also, the raise that I got was higher than the standard or norm, by far…like, double to triple. So while it is part of their job duties to sign off on these things, this one does stand out and I do think that they will remember it. But I appreciate all the feedback, that makes me feel better about not sending anything to the higher-ups!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          When you see the commish you can thank him for his interest/support of your work. Thank him in person, as opposed to a card. Yes, this could be a while, that is okay.

    3. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I wouldn’t send thank you notes to anyone. As Zooey said, this is a normal part of doing business. If you really felt like your boss/director went above and beyond for you then I would thank them in person the next time an appropriate time presents itself. I think thank you notes for raises are weird, even if it was one that was out of the norm.

    4. Blue Anne*

      I wouldn’t send any thank you notes. It’s an unusual situation for a raise, but it’s still a raise, and they decided that you’re worth that raise; you shouldn’t send them thank you notes for recognizing that your work has a lot of value. That’s just part of a good working life.

      I might thank my direct manager for going to bat for me, if we happen to be chatting in a casual situation like a Christmas party. That’s about it.

  76. orchidsandtea*

    What would be the ideal job title for this role?

    • Organized the group inboxes for accuracy and completeness
    • Rewrote part of the training program; gave suggestions on ways to maximize hands-on trainee time while minimizing the time spent updating questions.
    • Developed a time-saver for account coverage
    • Merged the duplicate shared files; reorganized for clarity and ease of use
    • Updated the Nights team on new procedures
    • Finding Teapot Delivery reports
    • Creating a training guide for incoming CSSs, complete with a job description, a recommended daily workflow, and visual tutorials
    o Training the CSS who starts in February
    • Creating a clickable, searchable PDF containing all active SOPs
    • Creating brief, professional email templates for CSRs to use

    The current title is “Customer Service Specialist,” which is vague and doesn’t reflect the training aspects.

    2. Emmie*

      The past tense makes it seem like you’re memorializing your job title on a resume. I’d use something like “Specialist, Customer Service” to take the emphasis off of the customer aspect of the role. You could use “Specialist, Service,” but that feels a bit misleading to me. I aim to use whatever is accurate to my job. I’m interested to hear what other folks say.

      1. orchidsandtea*

        Ha, this was a quick copy-paste from an email to my boss about what I have accomplished + what we plan for me to do next. My job duties expanded considerably (WAY more fun) and I want to ask for a title increase next month.

    3. A Good Jess*

      Knowledge Manager! (That was my title in a similar job, where I was in charge of training, documentation, certification, and process improvement.)

      You could also go with Instructional Designer– you’re doing task analysis and designing instruction, along with designing and developing instructional materials. Instructional materials includes the training guides but also the job aids such as the checklists, templates, and the knowledge base.

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      “Support Strategist”?
      It sounds like you’re assisting employees, not customers (mostly), and you’re doing a lot of active training/efficiency activities.

  77. Regina 2*

    What can you do about crippling confidence problems in the workplace? I have written about this before, but despite mental health counseling, working with a career coach, and reading this blog, I simply cannot seem to move beyond this.

    I just got moved to a team that moves much, much faster than my current team, and frankly, anywhere else I’ve worked. On one hand, it’s exciting, and I’ve seen team members who came on board a year ago with zero experience in the field now look like authoritative figures in their realm. On the other hand, I’ve been working for a decade in this space, and I can’t seem to think but the reason why I feel so lost is MY fault. I should have been more proactive and done more on my own, but I think it was a combination of being micro-managed for and losing interest in the work that’s made me lazy.

    On top of this, this team is like an internal consulting group that presents to very senior level executives in the company. One of them has a horrible reputation; since joining the team, all I hear is how tough he is, and how he frequently makes people cry. I know this from personal experience; I’ve been in the room with him just a handful of times, and I’m absolutely terrified of him. On top of fearing I can’t hang with my team, I fear the day that I have to present to him. He makes me feel really stupid, and I just don’t want to cry or break down in front of him or my team.

    What can I do to practice and get better? I feel like I need behavioral therapy where someone yells at me and calls me names in order to toughen up. I also wonder if I need to go on actual medication to deal with my constant and high anxiety. The counseling does not seem to be working.

    Everyone tells me that I’m smart and was asked to be on this team for a reason. That’s nice, but now I’m tired of hearing it. I don’t feel smart AT. ALL. I have a steep learning curve ahead of me, and am unable to produce from day one. I worry I can’t actually learn either. I can’t seem to retain anything I read or am trained on, and I’m constantly in meetings where the team members ask questions that I never would have thought to ask. (That’s why I’ve asked about how to develop critical thinking skills on this blog in the past.) They’re all on a different plane than me, and I need to figure out how to make an impact ASAP, lest they regret bringing me on. They’re investing a lot in me, and that only adds to my anxiety.

    Sorry for the rant; I just really feel like I’m melting down, and between my partner getting exasperated at me for the same sob story and everyone at work saying I’ll be okay, I just don’t know what to do to really believe I can do it.

    1. TCO*

      Is there any reason not to explore medication, different therapies, etc. like you’ve considered doing? Don’t write your situation off as “not being bad enough” to need more interventions if you’re really this miserable.

    2. NaoNao*

      Any chance you can ask a friendly team member for help in a general way? Like spend the day shadowing them, seeing how they work and think?

      Things that have helped me:
      Reading about how other people do it, with blogs such as “How I work” on LifeHacker.
      Diving in and doing it, making mistakes along the way, and just taking risks
      Going back and re-reading the training materials or practice on your own time, away from the stress of the office
      Watching how others in the job work
      Reading the job description and focusing on one or two areas that you CAN do, as you develop skills

    3. CM*

      Seems like it would be worth it to see a psychiatrist and ask if this issue would warrant medication. You’ve already tried a lot of measures involving self-help and talking to trained counselors. I know people who have taken anxiety drugs, either short-term, intermittently, or long-term, and it has made a big difference in their lives.

    4. KJ*

      What type of therapy are you getting? CBT is the most direct route to reducing anxiety related to specific things (phobias of speaking, social phobias). If you can’t find a therapist who uses it, there are apps and workbooks that could help.

      Medications could help as well- talk to a doc about it. I would try to see an actual psychiatrist, not a primary care doc; dosing can be tricky on psych meds. Meds+therapy will be stronger than meds or therapy alone. Sometimes folks need the meds so they can do the therapy and learn the skills.

      I’d also go a little easier on yourself- it sounds like you are the new kid on the team, so of course, you don’t know all the best questions to ask! You are still figuring it out! That is easier said than done though. Can you spend 10 minutes a day writing out your fears, word-vomit style, – tell yourself that is your spill time and if your thoughts start going in that direction at other times, remind yourself you will have a chance to write about those things later. That would be a great record of thoughts to bring to therapy as well.

      What do you do to self-care? Exercise, yoga, art, cooking, crafts, music? Try to do that more often. Do you have a mentor? Can you ask someone to mentor you in this role? Can you set up regular check-ins with your boss so you have a chance to ask him/her what you are doing well and what you need to improve on?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      My post got lost. Sorry if there is a double post in a little bit. I hit a bunch of wrong keys.

      Please get out of this job.
      There are not enough therapies or drugs in this world to help us overcome abuse. No treatment plan is going to help you cope with a screamer. none.

      Yep, your partner is exhausted from the on-going and unsolvable drama. It’s killing your personal relationships and your personal life. It’s not fair to drag Partner through this and even worse it’s not fair to drag you through this.

      Additionally, work on yourself talk. You are very hard on yourself. If you talked to a friend like that the friend would be really ticked with you. Correct yourself each time you have a negative thought about you. No one can do this for you and no one will check to see if you are doing it regularly. But if you are not talking to yourself nicer than you do now, it will remain apparent to everyone around you. Be kind to you. Again, no one can MAKE you do this. You have to decide and commit to work on your self-talk.

      This is a quality of life issue. I hope you give this serious consideration. And I hope you see this post here.

  78. Zooey*

    When do most large corporations pay annual bonuses? I thought it was traditionally around Christmas. This is my first job as an exempt employee, and a 15% target for annual bonuses were in my compensation. I have had glowing mid-year reviews and praise from my manager. The company had a record year. But I just got my second paycheck of December and there wasn’t anything extra in it.

    Formal performance conversations don’t happen until January, so does that mean my company will most likely pay out bonuses then?

    1. Rhys*

      Both corporate jobs I’ve worked have paid bonuses a couple of weeks to a month after annual performance reviews, which for both was usually in February or March. I don’t know if that’s just typical to my industry or what but I’ve always just gotten small tokens/gift cards from management around the holidays.

      1. Zooey*

        Thanks, I am guessing that is probably the case here also. Corporate taxes have to be filed in April so at least it will have to be before then.

      2. Pearly Girl*

        Why not ask HR or your manager?

        Every company is different. Ours pays out in March for the previous year, but we get a letter in January telling us what to expect.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It will vary; some do it at the end of the fiscal year, some do it at the end of the calendar year, and some have their own schedule. Your best bet is to check your company handbook (I know ours explains the bonus pay-out cycle) or just ask your boss directly.

    3. Regina 2*

      Ours is end of February/early March, tied to performance reviews. I think in previous jobs, we had it in April.

    4. Stranger than fiction*

      In my experience, bonuses are processed separately from regular payroll. Last year, they came around a few days after our mid-December check and handed us the bonus one, along with a “thank you, happy holidays” from Management…everyone here is hoping this happens this Monday because sales have been flat lately and every year we wonder if we’re even getting one.

    5. it happens*

      Assuming the company runs on a calendar year, they can close out the books, do performance reviews and then pay bonuses – bonus payments made by March 15 can be counted in the prior calendar year’s expenses.

      1. AliceBD*

        IF we get a bonus, it comes in March. It’s tied to the performance of the company as a whole, not to our individual performances.

    6. KarenT*

      My company’s is April. At a large cooperation it’s fine to ask though. Check with a co-worker or HR if you don’t want to ask your boss. It also may be in your employee manual or company intranet.

  79. Ready for a New Job*

    My fiance and I are going to buy a house next year, probably in the next 6-9 months. I know that mortgage companies look at your career history/how long you’ve been with the same company when deciding whether to give you a loan. Am I “locked in” to working at my current company until we’ve finalized the purchase? Or is it ok to start a new job (at a new company) a few months before applying for mortgage loans? I know it’s not good to change jobs between the time you get approved for the loan and finalize the purchase.

    My fiance will have been at his employer for four years with no plans to change jobs, and we will have more than 20% down payment, if either of those things make a difference.

    I’m very, very ready to change jobs but if I need to stick it out at the current place for another year in order to get a house I can manage it. It is both the job and the company that I want to change, so an internal transfer wouldn’t really help.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I had recently switched jobs prior to mortgage approval. My broker argued it as “it was an advancement in the field I was in” and it was fine. And I only had a 5% down payment. Then again, I don’t know the rules in your area, so that might actually be a really good thing to chat with a broker/bank person about.

    2. Friday*

      It’s fine to switch jobs whenever you want. I’m in escrow on a second house right now and am only a few months into my new job. Lenders like to see a steady employment history overall.

    3. Pearly Girl*

      You will have to show 1-3 months’ worth of pay stubs OR a letter from your employer saying “Ready will start employment at X company on this date and receive a salary of $1,000,000.” If you’re both on the mortgage, you both have to show pay stubs. If only your fiancé will be on the mortgage, you will not have to prove you’re employed.

  80. Gaia*

    So for the past eight months I’ve taken on this major project at work that has really opened up a new area of career interest for me. It has been more analyst type work which I’ve never done before nor did I ever consider it as a possible path. I’ve always just sort of gone where the wind has blown and that landed me in a management role for client services.

    But I really like this analyst work and I have found I’m really rather good at it. But we don’t have analysts at my company and as I’ve been talking to my Director I’ve mentioned that this is the kind of work I’d like to transition into and I’d like to focus my development here.

    Well lo and behold, we are suddenly hiring for an analyst position. I applied and let our VP and the hiring manager know I am interested (per their request) and I spoke to my Director and he is supportive of my application. And now I have a meeting with the hiring manager next week.

    But here’s the thing – I’m still involved in this big project and it will take me through the end of next year. And I can’t keep this project if I end up in a new role. But there is no one really fit within the department to suddenly take on this project from me. I feel some guilt over backing out of this because it will leave my department in a bind. But if I don’t follow this opportunity, I may never get another chance to do work that really interests me.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    1. LisaLee*

      I’d go for it. With such a long-term project, I’m sure they’re aware of and have planned for the possibility that key people might leave in the middle. And if your new department is amenable, you can always pop don to help out once in awhile if the new person gets stuck or has a question.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Oh yes, please apply for the analyst position. (Not to be rude, but if you were to run over by a bus, they’d have to find a replacement for you.) Of course, you might not get hired for it. But if you do get promoted you’ll still be around to offer advice and some training to your replacement.

      Go for it!

  81. Lucina*

    My boss has been promoted an he’s going to move to a more prestigious position by the end of February. Recently we have discussed in a call how the departemnet will be reorganised. He noted that managing me and a couple of my colleagues has been challenging because our area of expertise is different from what the rest of the company does. He thanked me for my support and knowledge. I was a bit concerned about the changes and did not reacted much. I would lie to let him know that he has been a great, very sensible and professional boss. I actually thought that he reads AAM! Would it be appropriate to send him a note by email before I leave for the Christmas holidays? We’re in different parts of the UK (England-Scotland)

  82. Brett*

    Back on December 5th on the post about “the rules you need for office gift-giving” I asked for advice on giving gifts to my team. (e.g. should I get them gifts and if so, how much)

    I took fposte’s suggestion of a team lunch and it went really well!

    I just blocked out their calendars ahead of time, got a lot of feedback on where to eat. And then when we got there, surprised them with free lunch.

    The funniest part is that someone from another team saw we were all heading to lunch and tagged along. She has been extremely helpful to me on a few key projects this year, so I treated her too.

  83. How to ask about Glassdoor Reviews in Interviews*

    Pretty Hypothetical at this point but the BF’s former coworker is encouraging him to apply at the coworker’s new company. However, the Glassdoor reviews are ABYSMAL (berating employees, everyone’s overworked, etc.). Most of the terrible reviews are from 2015 and prior, and there’s one decent review in 2016. Since it’s a startup, I think it’s *possible* that they’ve gone through a big culture shift and it might not be so terrible.

    So, if you were interviewing somewhere with reviews like that, how would you bring it up? (Serious and silly answers accepted because Friday) :)

    1. Sadsack*

      Asking if they have seen their Glassdoor reviews and why do they think they are so poor is where I would start.

  84. Murray*

    I had a great interview yesterday and am feeling pretty good; the company said they would let me know by the end of next week. My current employer contributes $1500 to my HSA every year on January 1st because I’m in a high-deductible health care plan. My question: if I submit my notice before January 1st but am still employed by my current employer (let’s say I gave a month-long notice, for instance) would they still have to contribute to my HSA on January 1st? I care more about getting a new job, but I’m trying to draw up a pro/con list of ALL the financials/details if I switch companies.

    1. KiteFlier*

      You’d be better off asking your Company’s benefits person directly, but I think that the usual process is that the funds are deposited as long as you are an active employee on January 1.

    2. Sophie Winston*

      The key here is that they probably don’t have to fund your HSA at all. (There may be something in your state law, but I’m not aware of anything at the federal level. Our company emphasizes that they have historically contributed but make no guarantee they will continue.) My guess is that if you put your notice in before they make the deposit, you won’t get it.

  85. Eric*

    I’ve had lots of recruiters calling my office phone lately. I’m never expecting it, and I get worried that someone is going to overhear and think I’m looking to leave. What’s the best way to handle this?

    1. Epsilon Delta*

      I would just say something brief, “Oh I’m not interested, thanks.” Or if you are interested in talking with them, “I don’t have time to discuss this right now, but can I call you back at [another time]?” No one overhearing those things should automatically jump to the conclusion you’re talking to a recruiter.

  86. Miss Elaine E*

    Wanted to ask the opinion of fellow AAM readers.

    First some background. About a month ago I attended a strategy conference for a major faith-based charitable organization. (You would recognize the name if you saw it.) At this multi-day conference, we were separated into groups to discuss various strategies and then vote as to which strategy was the one that needed to be addressed first. Then our groups presented our findings to the total conference. The results of all the groups will be reviewed by the organization’s hierarchy for final decision, probably in spring.

    As these things go, I was in the minority opinion for many decisions in my group. That’s fine, it takes many viewpoints to make a world. However, during the discussion, which at times got ever-so-slightly heated but still mostly professional, I noticed that our table’s leader sometimes did not let my opinion be heard (i.e., I started speaking on one particular matter four times but was interrupted before I could even get my first sentence out). I don’t think it was by intent but still, it happened. At another time, when I was giving my final thoughts (we all were given a chance to do so), I was called a slightly disparaging nickname for someone who shares my particular views (think something on the order of “libtard” though it wasn’t that). Again, I honestly don’t think it was meant to be an insult though it did feel slightly so. The leader of our group did nothing to reign it in.

    End of background

    There was talk at the end of the conference of our group getting together for (I think) a purely social reunion sometime after the new year. I don’t think it is required and that our group’s work is done. I did not feel any particular connection with other members of our group and I don’t intend to attend any such social time unless I do find out it is required to do so.

    My question is: Do I politely mention to our leader if and when an invitation to such a reunion is scheduled the reason why I will decline? Or just let it go as, “I’m sorry that won’t be possible”?

    Thanks for your viewpoints.

    1. Sadsack*

      You could reply that you felt that it seemed that not everyone’s input was heard or appreciated and that there were inappropriate comments made that made you feel uncomfortable, so you prefer not to attend. If the leader is truly interested, he’ll ask for more details, which is what I hope he’ll do.

      Also, I’ll bet that remark you mentioned was meant as an insult. I can’t fathom how it wasn’t intended that way, even if under the guise of a joke.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Give the feedback now about how you thought the conference went and these issues that came up as part of things that you feel need correcting in future.

      See how you feel about it going forward after that. And then do the “sorry that won’t be possible” if you are invited to a social gathering that you’re not required to attend.

      Q: Is there a reason you didn’t call it out at the time it was happening? “Excuse me, I find that term and the dismissiveness attached to it here offensive. Can we please focus on what I’m saying?” “Jack, I keep getting cut off here, can you reign that in please?”

      1. Miss Elaine E*

        Thanks for the input. As I recall, as to the term, I suppose it happened so quickly, with of course the immediate disclaimer, “I didn’t mean anything by that,” that I didn’t really know what to do. I did answer back that “Yes, I am a (more polite term for what was said) and…”
        Being a faith-based group, perhaps I was focused on responding as charitably as possible.

        As to the getting cut off, I am not forceful by nature and just kept on politely waiting for a break in the interrupter’s comment to get back. Also, I had hoped the facilitator was going to, well, facilitate.

        Thanks again.

        1. Student*

          Well, are your opinions on these matters something you think is worth fighting for, or not?

          If you don’t want to fight for your views to be heard, keep doing what you’re doing. It’s fine to decide you don’t care enough about your positions on matter X to fight for them.

          If you do care about the topics discussed, you’re going to have to change your approach dramatically to be heard, and you’ll need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable when speaking up. That means refusing to allow repeated interruptions, and interrupting others to be heard, even if that’s way outside your comfort zone. That means complaining in the moment when someone calls you nasty names, not venting a month later via quiet social snubs. Advocating for a position you care about is hard, and uncomfortable, and embarrassing, and it means risking that people think you’re weird or different and are mean to you on a personal level, and it means engaging with people who disagree with you, even if they get nasty about it, instead of snubbing them to avoid your discomfort.

          Advocating for a viewpoint sucks. That’s why most people don’t do it. It can make a difference, though, whereas politely listening and snubbing parties rarely accomplishes much.

          1. Miss Elaine e*

            Thank you. Truly and sincerely, thank you. I needed to read this.
            If any kind of reunion or follow up happens, I will do my best to fight for my convictions as I feel warranted as the circumstances stand.

    3. Miss Elaine E*

      Popping back in to add that the sample disparaging remark above was much worse than was actually uttered but it was the only thing I could think of when I write the above post. Much closer is this: Back in the late ’70s/early ’80s it was definitely not cool to be a “nerd” or a “geek” (unlike today). What I was called felt comparable to that.

      1. N.J.*

        Look at tit this way though. It was still name calling. If it was that was a disrespectful way to treat you in a group discussion.

  87. Mimmy*

    Not really a question, just more of a semi-rant:

    I have an MSW, which is usually associated with working in human services or mental health counseling, either working directly with individuals or managing/directing such programs. While I was originally interested in this years ago, I am less comfortable with direct services and more interested in information, data, and policy (especially after taking the StrengthsFinder assessment). Yet, most people I talk to see my MSW and think that I want to work directly with individuals.

    There is a part of me that is still interested in direct services, perhaps in a case management or Information & Referral capacity. I would particularly be open to something like this in a postsecondary education environment. Yet, I get scared. I remember when I volunteered to conduct surveys on homeless individuals, I was practically jumping out of my skin–I was that nervous. Granted, that’s a different population than, say, college students with disabilities. But still…it makes me wonder.

    I am trying to stay on top of my case worker with Voc Rehab (wrote about that in a previous Open Thread) who knows I’ve been wrestling with this dilemma. I expect that things will pick up again after the new year, and I really want to make sure I set myself for a situation that I will be comfortable and successful in.

  88. Posting anonymously today*

    I need to let this out somewhere.

    1. My guts telling me a work friend is avoiding me and i’m super bummed about that.

    2. Two people have told me that the whole office thinks I’m hooking up with another coworker when that’s not the case. We are friendly but…..we don’t meet on the weekends, we don’t really text much, we don’t get lunch or coffee together, we don’t spend any time together at work. I’m bothered by this bc I’m married, and I consider the person a good friend. I hate that I’d have to tone it down or scale it back.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Make fun of it. “Seriously people? We’re friendly, so we must be hooking up? We have in-jokes, so sex must be involved? Are you kidding me? I thought we were all older than this.”

      And then now and then, look at someone (a different someone) and say “We’ve been talking for longer than 5 minutes, do you think we’ve passed the threshold where we must be hooking up?”

      1. Posting anonymously today*

        That’s the thing, no one says it in person or in the moment.
        First time was when I was with the friend and a third person, and 3rd person jokingly mentioned it.
        Second time, was a former coworker over text message when we were talking about something else unrlated.

        1. animaniactoo*

          The people reporting it to you are saying it. You’re not twigging that. THEY said it to you. You can respond to them with the kind of stuff I said above, because that’s the kind of response they’ll carry back to the people who said to them.

          You can also carry that into other conversations yourself upfront “Gossip around this place is ridiculous. I just heard the other day that apparently I’m hooking up with a co-worker who I never even see outside of work! When am I supposed to have found the time?” Roll eyes, move on.

          1. Posting anonymously today*

            Sorry, what’s twigging?

            and also,…. let’s say I decide NOT to tone it down or cut back bc I value someone’s friendship..
            I don’t do what I think is inappropriate or gross (and if I did, that’s another issue).
            What are the consequences I could face?

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Twigging = catching, getting, understanding.
              Think of walking through the woods, you brush by a bush. It gets caught on your clothing. The bush twigged you, it caught you. You had to stop and deal with the little twig caught in your clothing. If I don’t twig something then I missed it. It was probably a small thing but key to what I needed to know.

              Consequences here might be more gossip. In some places they get bored and move to other subjects so in those places it would be less gossip. Hard to know what would happen in your setting.

    2. CM*

      I wouldn’t make fun of it, since that can be construed as trying to hide it. I would talk to the two people who have said that and tell them you’re concerned about this gossip, that it couldn’t be farther from the truth, and that you’d appreciate their help in refuting it and telling others that it is not true.

      (Also, “twigging” means “understanding.”)

    3. Fact & Fiction*

      Ugh. This stuff is so irritating. In the early 2000s, when I was in my mid 20s, one of the attorneys I worked with (IP and he had a tech background) helped me out at work a couple times while I was trying not to flunk a math course when I went back to college after a several-year break. We developed a very casual friendship. He was at least 10-15 years older than me, happily married with kids, and I was happily engaged myself. We went out to lunch in the general vicinity of the firm maybe 2-3 times within a few weeks, plain daylight with tons of people around and never ever met anywhere else or said/did anything inappropriate. Some busybody apparently took offense to a male attorney and female support staff going to lunch – because god forbid men and women can be just friends in a law firm without something hinky going on – because he told me we should stop going to lunch so no one would get the wrong idea.

      Just annoyed the snot out of me because I never thought about him in that way. I know plenty of other people did engage in affairs like that but jeez. Judge people who are obviously engaged in something elicit without gossiping about simple, not very frequent lunches. Nobody ever judged any of the time mean I went to lunch alone with women. Hrmph !

  89. Epsilon Delta*

    Got an email from a coworker on another team today. “Do you have an update???” Three. Question marks. I gave her an update two days ago!

    I have been head-desking so hard on this project.

    1. Callalilly*

      I would response with “I gave it to you????” which she’d respond “No you didn’t?????” which to I’d reply “Yes I did??????”

    2. Girasol*

      Is there a chance that coworker just needs a fresh update? If a manager has flown into her office in a panic for immediate updates she may have bounced that panic to you – in the form of a question mark pile – as a knee jerk reaction. Not a good thing, of course, but that would mean that the implication of fault on your part wasn’t intended.

    3. Stranger than fiction*

      If it makes you feel any better, today one of my coworkers emailed me a (trust me) non-urgent request from a customer at 7am, and at 9:42 asked if I got her first email. Oh and asked over chat if i got it as well.

    4. Crylo Ren*

      Ugh, I had a former grand-boss who would use 3+ question marks as a way to emphasize incredulousness/the importance of her question (spoiler alert: the questions were rarely that pressing). To this day I get irrationally frustrated whenever I see multiple question marks in emails.

  90. Frogger*

    Can anyone tell me how to get thicker skin at work?

    In my first job I thought I did it… for the first year I took everything SO personally. I eventually learned I would only survive by just letting it wash off of me and improve if a criticism was made. I left after my second year when the criticisms were clearly personal and meant to push me out (like being told signing my name should take 2 seconds, not 6 seconds). Prior to this job (my college years) I would cry if criticized.

    My new job is much better coworker/boss wise but there are still moments were things sting. Usually it is when I get scolded for forgetting something I wasn’t trained on, or when a mistake is presumed to be my lack of knowledge instead of just an oversight (with the condescending ‘Do you know anything about this?’)… But the worst is the clients since we are accountants.

    Last week the bookkeeper for a client was mad because my boss told both the client and bookkeeper that the bookkeeper did bad work, which caused more work for us, which inflated the bill. At first she asked me to sit down with her and show her what we thought was wrong – she was very receptive and I thought it went well. The mistakes were ones someone with her background shouldn’t be making and was likely the result of not checking her work and speeding through it.

    She called my boss the next day and argued everything I said… he saw her mistakes for himself so he knew I was right. She tried to put all the blame on me because I am much younger than her – she started by saying I clearly didn’t know what I was doing, questioning every time entry made, claiming I was wasting time, and finished it off with a “has she even graduated yet?”. This massively offended me because I have a 3 year degree (top of my class) and 5 years work experience and she was comparing my work to someone still in school!

    I remained composed all day but my deskmate told me that I went 50 shades of red for the hour following her call and didn’t look my normal mellow self for the rest of the day. It bugged me for the rest of my evening as well, I had a ‘how dare she?’ rant at home.

    Everyone told me not to take it personally because she was clearly trying to cover her own embarrassment by going after the only target. But how do you just not take it personally???

    1. Regina 2*

      I don’t know, but I really need to understand answers to this. I have never, ever, EVER understood, “It’s just business, it’s not personal.” I mean, I am the conduit for the business at hand; criticism for the work is absolutely a reflection of ME as a person and who I am. And we spend so much time at work and are defined by it. How to not take it personally?

      I have always been hypersensitive, and I’m old enough to realize I am never going to change. I think my only solution is to find a career path that is most forgiving of my personality type, but I fear they don’t exist.

      Just wanted to say, I feel your pain!!

    2. Michele*

      You have to also remember that co-workers react to scenarios differently (some defensive, or angrily, etc.) and for their own personal reasons. But don’t be afraid to speak up for yourself.

    3. Mrs. Boo*

      I find it very useful in situations like this to step back and ask why her comments are so irritating. Does she has some power over your job? It doesn’t sound like it, especially since your boss saw the mistakes as well. Is it because she two-faced you by appearing to appreciate the feedback and then complaining to your boss? If that’s the case, then, that’s really her issue, and not yours. As far as I can see, this is a classic case of an adult who got called out on mistakes acting taking that calling out very poorly, which reflects entirely on her, not you. Also, why should she have any power over your self-perception and confidence? When I was a younger worker (I’m 40 now), I had the same problem. I still bought into the notion that someone who is older is necessarily wiser. Not so. Know that you are, in this situation, the better person and let it roll of from there.

    4. T3k*

      I used to find it hard not to take what felt like personal attacks personally until one day. I had a coworker around my age (around 24) who didn’t word something very well and so she basically came off angrily accusing me and two others in the group over someone not replacing the TP on the spool in the bathroom, but she was so adamant, I shot back, annoyed, saying it wasn’t me (as I’m zealous about replacing those) and she just went angrily “I’m not saying it was you!” but her tone came off like she was attacking each of us personally. Later learned that that is just how she reacts to things that irritate her and learned to just roll my eyes at the ridiculousness of what she’d get upset over. So for the most part, I find something funny about the situation to deflate myself. Other times, I had to distance myself from the situation. As I was basically helping with customer service, and I didn’t have control over the pricing, shipping, etc. I’d have to remind myself that it’s not me they’re angry/upset at, but the business/policy. I actually had a customer, who I’d say rated a 3 on a 1-10 scale of angry call (not cussing or name calling) who came in later and actually apologized for his behavior.

    5. Student*

      I’ve always thought about it as a maturity issue, but that’s probably not quite right.

      For me, it’s about recognizing that (1) you are not the center of the world, (2) you must pick your battles to be effective, and (3) you are giving your enemy exactly what they want if you jump whenever they pull your emotional strings.

      This woman wasn’t ever complaining about you, Frogger. She was trying to huff and puff her way though something embarrassing and scary to her. You know her statements to be inaccurate at best, lies at worst – right? So, clearly this fight isn’t about you, it’s about her, since nothing she said was true about you. She is afraid for her job and lashing out at whatever is the easiest target in sight, which happens to be you. As my mother once said, she doesn’t know you well enough to hate you. She is trying to misdirect attention away from her problems and onto you. If you take her bait by going off at her, or change the fight into something personal about her manners instead of her sub-par work, then you are actually helping her direct attention away from her biggest problems and onto you instead.

      Isn’t it better to sit there and say in your head, “Aha, I see you are trying to bait me because you are scared of losing your job if we focus on your bad performance. You are lashing out wildly and trying to change the conversation. So, instead of taking your random string of insults personally and changing the subject for you, I will coldly and methodically make sure the focus stays on your bad performance. That will hurt you the most, and help me the most. So I will ignore your stupid and baseless insults, and then I will be the winner here.”

      1. Regina 2*

        It’s interesting though, because when similar things happen to me, I immediately give all the credence to the person criticizing me, and not assessing the reality. My mindset has become — “They’re saying something negative about me, so it must be my fault.” I don’t even stop to consider the alternative in that moment, and just beat myself up about it for hours/weeks/months after. Not sure how that developed, but it takes a third party to force me to stop and reconsider before I think it’s anything but my fault.

    6. zora*

      Honestly, this is something I’m going to be bringing up with my therapist, now that I am finally seeing one. I tend to freak out to any criticism, even in my personal life, because I want to be an overachiever and perfect at everything I do, and I get really upset at myself when I feel like I’ve done anything “wrong”. And I think that is an overreaction, but just telling myself to stop hasn’t worked, so I’m going to be talking to my therapist about how to deal with these things better and figure out where this is coming from.

    7. Anono-me*

      I find it helpful to ask myself how much I value the other person’s judgement on other issues.

      If I wouldn’t ask them to recommend a restaurant, why would I give any credence to what they think of me? (If they are in a position where their opinion can impact me, I mentally roll my eyes and roll up my sleeves and deal with it.)

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Stuff is going to sting from time to time, it really can’t be avoided.

      The trick is not to let sting you too much.

      1) Consider the source. Why do you want this person’s approval? (rhetorical question, not a question to beat on.)

      2) When you tell a person that they have messed up, you can pretty much expect fall out. I always say, the bigger their explosion the more my words had some type of meaning to them. Your words had lots and lots of meaning to her.

      3) If you were this other person and some one just told you your work was messed up, as hers was how would you make out with that news? I’d like to think I would handle it, but I can’t be sure. It sounds to me like you just told her that most of her work was wrong. This is difficult news to listen to.

      4) Make yourself stop hashing and rehashing. Every time you rehash you are keeping that anger alive. It’s like throwing gas on a fire. Some people do well with walks, go out for a walk on your break. Yes, it’s cold. The cold will sober that anger if you let it. Stop replaying it in your head.

      5) Because of who I am I need several coping tools in my tool box. So this is one I use on myself. “If I carry around a bunch of anger then that makes me different from her, HOW?” People who succeed professionally do so in part because of their ability to stay focused in tight situations. For example think of a fire chief or police chief, they don’t get to keep their jobs because of their anger/upset. So I told myself that I was developing a professional skill that I would use for the rest of my life.

      6) This one is a sad one. Sometimes anger can be an absence of skills/knowledge. She did not have the skills in place to handle all you had to say. She blew up. People give off a lot of energy when they blow up. It’s important to learn to not absorb their energy. Don’t get caught in her experience. Let her be angry. don’t wear her anger for her. And don’t feel like you have to stop her from being angry, Lord knows, she does not feel she has to stop herself.

      I let each difficult situation teach me something. I would ask myself what did I do that I LIKED and what did I do that I did NOT like. If you are looking at your own actions you are not focusing on hers and therefore not throwing gas on the fire. My family had tempers. I had to learn how to keep a temper in check. This was odd because temper is what helped me growing up. But it did not help me in the work arena.

  91. Pinkie Pie Chart*

    My husband had an interview a couple of weeks ago. Is it too late to send a thank you note? Or a follow up note? He also doesn’t have the information for the actual interviewers just his contact in HR. Is it OK to send to them and ask them to forward on?

    1. JHS*

      I would let it go at this point. If it helps, I don’t think thank you cards help your candidacy at all, although I do them and I think it is nice to receive them! I believe Alison has made this point in the past too. It would look weird coming so late.

  92. LessJess*

    Long time reader, first time commenter!

    I’m currently unemployed. I was interviewing for two jobs, one with Company A and one with Company B. Company A got back to me almost immediately and, sick of unemployment, I accepted immediately. Surprise surprise, the Company B have now offered me a job with much better pay, benefits, commute – basically the whole package. What’s the best way to go about withdrawing my acceptance from Company A and going ahead with Company B? I wasn’t due to start with Company A for over a month, so I don’t feel I’m leaving them in a lurch.

    1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I think you can use a generic “unfortunately circumstances in my life have changed and I’m now going to be unable to accept the position”.

      I do think that doing so is going to permanently burn bridges with company A though, so I would just make sure that you are 100% OK with that. And I would also be 100% sure about company B’s offer because if that falls through you are going to be left without a job. It’s likely that you have already considered all of this but I hope you don’t mind me expressing those additional thoughts, even though it is not part of the question you asked.

  93. Tris Prior*

    Grrrrrrr to workplaces who don’t believe you when you develop a medical condition. Boyfriend has a chronic eye condition that flared up badly yesterday. He called out of work because he literally couldn’t look at a screen without being in a lot of pain.

    It’s a bit better today after going to the doctor yesterday and getting a whole array of eye drops, but still not enough for him to be able to comfortably use a computer all day. It’ll probably be this way for a few days more. Even with a doctor’s note, his awful toxic job ALWAYS gives him crap when he has to take a sick day, and I have so had it with that place. (also, they just changed them over to way crappier insurance than he had before, so, that’ll be fun once the bills for this start coming in. :( )

    Unfortunately ever since the election he’s been too depressed to job hunt.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      He needs to get over his depression, or at least not allow it to affect him so much that he can’t search for jobs. That’s a terrible company and he needs to get out STAT.

      1. Tris Prior*

        I know, but it’s not like I can force him to get therapy or meds. I’ve suggested both to him multiple times.

        (I’ve been pretty depressed myself since the election but at least my job’s going well.)

        The toxic job certainly doesn’t help. They have him so beaten down, he honestly feels he has nothing to offer a company and has no skills. And he’s pushing 50 which also does not help matters. :(

      2. TCO*

        “Getting over depression” is much easier said than done. Even situational depression can be hard to get out of.

  94. designbot*

    Small victories–anyone else have any this week? I finally pushed my way into a meeting that it’s been causing headaches for everyone to not have me in but I’d been excluded from because of title/rank. One step closer to actually being able to do the job I was hired to do…

  95. socrescentfresh*

    Today is “wear your weird holiday sweater to the office” day. My weird holiday one has a windproof liner that rustles with even the tiniest movements. In my quiet cubicle office it would be obnoxious, so I wore a normal sweater instead.

    Meanwhile, one of my colleagues showed up in a court jester style dress festooned with jingle bells. You can hear it jingle with her every move. I feel like such a scrooge but I don’t know how I’m going to stand a full day of jingling.

  96. Mallory Janis Ian*

    I posted last week about my direct report who was called to HR for making a sexist comment (https://www.askamanager.org/2016/12/open-thread-december-9-10-2016.html#comment-1293016). After his meeting with HR was over, the HR rep called me in to fill me in on the situation.

    He said that because I had already reported other inappropriate behaviors by the direct report, he had a broader than he otherwise would have. So he spoke to him about the offensive comment, but he also told him that his behavior has to meet a higher bar than just not saying things like that. He told him that he also can’t be abrasive; he must be collegial. He said that since this is a behavioral issue, versus a performance issue, that the behavior has to improve and STAY improved; that there isn’t a 60-, 90-, or 120-day window past which he can revert to his old behavior. He told him that his next misstep, regardless of when it occurs, could result in action up to and including firing.

    I had already told my direct report most of this, and the HR manager knew that I had. He agreed with my take that my direct report simply didn’t believe me when I told him; he thought he had a pretty good bead on how to act and that I was just being overly-sensitive or cautious.

    So, the meeting took place at 8:30 on Monday morning; it had been scheduled for 4:30 on Friday afternoon, but a conflict came up. My direct returned from that meeting pretty shaken up and upset, and he requested to go home at lunch and use a half-day of vacation. I checked with the HR guy to make sure there was no reason why I shouldn’t allow this, and then I let him go home.

    His behavior until lunch was very withdrawn and quiet, and he ignored a direct greeting from the acting* department head because he was sulking. The acting department head told me that he would greet him once more in about half an hour, and if his attitude hadn’t changed, he would be in trouble again. I understand that he was upset, but I’ve told him that we can’t wear our feelings on our sleeves at the front desk. I’m just glad that my boss and the acting department head are aware of the situation and prepared to back me up in making this guy toe the line as far as his behavior goes.

    *My boss was traveling internationally, so he officially named a senior professor acting department head in his absence so that he could act on the situation with HR, if necessary. It was also to give me some backup in case I needed it in my boss’s absence.

    1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Very interesting update! Sounds like you/your bosses are doing the right things. This report seems to have an attitude problem but it seems that it’s been expressed to him in a very clear manner. This is the perfect time for him to fix the issue and I hope he takes the opportunity to do so.

    2. SophieChotek*

      What an update ~ thanks.
      I’m glad it sounds like your boss/HR are with you on this direct report with the attitude problem. And I’m impressed they were clear that this behavior needs to stay improved — because I think that is probably pretty key.

    3. designbot*

      God I’d love to know what’s going on in this guy’s head, now that another man has clearly stated that the way he treats you and other female employees is not okay and is likely to cost him his job. It does sound like HR got through to him, but the result of that is almost never that the offender genuinely believing the criticism and correcting the behavior.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I’m torn between being relieved that someone finally got through to him and irritated that he didn’t just listen to me when I very plainly told him the exact same thing. I’m not sure if the HR guy got through because he’s a man, or if getting called into HR would have made an impression regardless of the HR rep’s gender.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I’ve been impressed with how this HR guy handles everything. He’s a department of one, and his HR game is always on point.

  97. LizB*

    I had my first round interview for the manager position on my team today! I think I knocked it out of the park, but obviously it’s hard to tell. My department director has an excellent poker face and has been steadfastly neutral whenever the subject of filling the position comes up, so I have absolutely no idea what he thinks of my candidacy. I don’t even know if anyone else applied for the position! I feel like if I was the only one, they wouldn’t be doing the whole two-interviews rigamarole, but it’s entirely possible that they follow procedure even with only one candidate. I won’t have my second round interview (with the VP in charge of our department) until the first week of January if it happens at all, so now I just wait for a calendar invite and try not to freak out while I’m on vacation.

  98. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    I think you can use a generic “unfortunately circumstances in my life have changed and I’m now going to be unable to accept the position”.

    I do think that doing so is going to permanently burn bridges with company A though, so I would just make sure that you are 100% OK with that. And I would also be 100% sure about company B’s offer because if that falls through you are going to be left without a job. It’s likely that you have already considered all of this but I hope you don’t mind me expressing those additional thoughts, even though it is not part of the question you asked.

  99. Professional certifications?*

    I anyone here an IT business analyst? I’m thinking of studying for my CCBA (certificate of competence in business analysis). My work offers the course for free online so I’d just have to pay to sit for the exam. I currently do sort of business analyst stuff but more on the technical side so it’s more like I take the business analyst designs and figure out how to make the back end system work. How much value does the CCBA have, and is there anything else I can do to position myself more for business analyst roles? I absolutely don’t want to be a project manager so I don’t see value in getting the PMP (well in my case it would probably be the CAPM) but we have access to that course too so tell me if I’m wrong.

    1. Girasol*

      I started training for an analyst’s cert as an IT analyst, but at the time the certificate was very costly and not well known or respected, so it didn’t make sense to finish. But the training was excellent. So while I can’t speak to how valuable CCBA is today, I can tell you that I learned a lot that I was able to take back and apply to good benefit, and that made a difference in my job.

    2. rubyrose*

      IT Business Analyst here.
      Over the past two years, during job hunting, I have seen maybe one or two positions requesting certification, but it was never a requirement. It looked more to be something the company was going to use to weed out applicants.

      One can become a BA through a variety of means, none of which is based solely on education. In my view, IT BAs tend to initially be either business focused or technically focused, based on the education and experience they have when they land in the BA role. To be a really good BA you need to know both sides of that equation. So if your current skill set is more technical (which is what it sounds like), start learning more about the business. Ask questions about how the person came up with the designs, investigate how those designs relate to the business workflow and processing. As a BA a part of your job is to be able to translate needs/desires back and forth between the business departments and IT.

      Since your employer is paying, I would go ahead and take it. You will probably get exposure to the entirety of skills needed to be a good BA.

  100. Cochrane*

    Like clockwork, my co-worker gets a holiday card every year from a guy that he used to deal with in his prior job. Nothing elaborate, just a simple-looking holiday card with a brief hand-written greeting. In our industry (finance), these gestures are few and far between.

    He’s asked my opinion about telling this guy to “take him off his mailing list” as they don’t have any real relationship beyond a phone call or two through the year. I think he ought to politely accept the card and not treat the guy who wants to make a friendly holiday greeting feel like a spammer.

    What do you think?

    2. SophieChotek*

      I tend to agree with you.
      I know I’d be hurt/insulted if I was the person taking the time to send a handwritten card, and got called and asked to be removed.
      If it was truly, truly, a generic pre-printed, pre-addressed, I might feel a little different.
      Either way, though, the gesture seems kind. And if your co-worker just recycles it — no harm has been done.

      1. Cochrane*

        The envelope has pre-printed labels but the card is definitely hand-written. I asked him why he feels this way and he replied with something like “it’s presumptuous, we’re not friends, he’s an acquaintance at best that I couldn’t pick out of a lineup”. He seems to feel that card-man is being fake-friendly so he can dun him for a job or sell him something down the road.

        In this line of work, you tend to be a little suspicious of “Greeks bearing gifts”, but I think he needs to dial it back over a silly card once a year.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Seriously. It’s a holiday card! I know people whose lists are 4 miles long and grow every year. Every time they meet someone, that person gets on their list. Dude needs to let it go. First rule of most life interactions: people aren’t nearly as interested in you as you think.

        2. Windchime*

          Yeah. I get a hand-written holiday card every year from the salesman who sold me my car. I’m not under any illusions that this guy thinks we are friends. It’s just a card.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I get a card from my financial adviser, doctors, I think my oil company and my insurance agent.
            All these cards cut up in to gift tags for next year quite well!

  101. AnonFriday*

    Hey all – my husband has had a workers comp situation that I wonder if anyone else has experienced. I did some research on the interwebz without a ton of luck. About 2 years ago hubby was hurt on the job – a skid fell on him while loading a truck due to the negligence of a coworker. Long story short, he ended up with bulging discs in L4 & L5. This company was in CT, and at the time told him that they would take care of anything.. just to send bills to x address and then pick up prescriptions from so and so pharmacy. He asked at the time if there was anything else he needed to do, and they said no, they’d handle it all (silly us). Hubs did his time with physical therapy and was back to normal-ish fairly quickly.

    Fast forward to two years later and for the past 2 months and said injury is acting up again. We are 99% certain this is related to workplace injury because he has never had back issues outside of said injury and the pain and issue is the same, but getting worse. He is having trouble walking, doing any task really, and is still working on top of all of it for the same company but at a new TX office. Hubs calls HR office to see what he needs to do to potentially reopen the case, and this is where it all goes downhill. HR lady (same that handled the issue the first time) says to contact a certain adjuster with LazyCorp Workers Comp to see what he needs to do to have the case reopened. He left messages every day for two weeks before his case was reassigned to someone else.. who is also now non responsive. We found a worker’s comp lawyer who was willing to take the case on and they did some digging.. to find that the claim was never actually filed in CT (but somehow he still got all of his expenses paid, etc, at the time). Hubs had no idea he had to do anything per his convos with HR (NOTE TO EVERYONE.. always get a lawyer for a WC case!) So, in addition to the claim not being filed and LazyCorp’s awful adjusters who cannot return a phone call or email for weeks at a time, doctors will not see him because it’s considered an out of state WC case. We are currently waiting on a letter from the insurance adjustor stating that Hubs can get a one time visit to a participating doctor to see if this injury is truly WC related, but we are going on day 5 of waiting for said letter. Icing on the cake? HR lady said to fake an injury in front of Hubs boss so they could open up a new case. (!!????!!!)

    We are at a loss. We have great medical insurance through my employer, but as soon as a doctor asks how the injury initially happened they refuse to see him – even though the case is most likely being denied and we are covered by personal insurance and the doctors are in network. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience? This has been going on for over a month, my husband is in an incredible amount of pain, and cannot get time off of work nor treatment because no doctor will see him to even give him a note he can provide to his employer. Things are not all well for us this holiday season! Would love some advice/words of encouragement.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yeah, start letting the lawyer contact the company – including the HR lady, stating the extremity of husband’s condition and the fact that he can’t even take off work which is potentially exaggerating the existing issue to a point where the whole thing might become a much bigger deal because he cannot be treated and cannot take off work as the situation stands now. Let it start going through the lawyer.

    2. under the radar for this*

      Animaniactoo is correct – let the lawyer get active here. I would also consider going to the ER and let the lawyer use that as ammo against HR and LazyCorp WC. Perhaps a note from the ER that your husband needs to be off work will help.

      I had my own sticky WC situation about 6 years ago. I suffered a concussion at work while traveling to a state different than the one I lived in. I was a remote worker, so my WC was through the state I lived in, not the state where my company was located (which was different than where the accident occurred). My state had recently passed a law that cases with only cognitive issues were not eligible for WC. So I was sent back to work way before I was able or ready.

      It was rough. Yes, I was refused doctors appointments the instant they knew it was work related. I was single with no real friends in the area, so there was no one to help me navigate the mess (thank goodness your husband has you). I ended up moving to another state (one where I had planned on moving to before accident) where I just did not tell them that it was a WC issue. I was put on short term disability (not through WC) and my good company medical insurance covered the bills. I was scared to death that the company/insurance would figure it out, but they didn’t.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Congrats.
      1. Does your university (if you are affiliated with) provide any assistance? If so, apply for it straight away and save all necessary receipts. Some of the academic organization also have their own scholarships they might at least defray the cost of the membership/conference fees.
      2. To share/not share a hotel room might be an issue. (Much discussion here about that before).
      3. Please, please practice your speech aloud. Project. Don’t reach your paper to the podium. Ensure it lasts exactly (maybe 30 seconds less) than whatever your allowed time is. Do not go over time. (some conference chairs will stop you, others won’t.) Think about how it sounds being read aloud–like a theater performance –how pauses, word emphasis, etc. can help the listener follow your argument.
      4. If you are planning on using audio-visuals, think about how your presentation will go if AV fails.Will it still make sense? Do you have backup handouts? Go to the room and test everything before for AV if possible. (While we understand technical issues, it’s frustrating to spend 5 minutes while everyone tries to fix the projector or discovers various laptops won’t talk to each other.) If you have all the cables (i.e. to connect to project), I’d bring them even if the conference says they’ll be provided. I usually save my presentations to a thumb drive and the cloud in case of issues. (ditto for paper.)
      5. depending on venue…bring food. Because so often the food provided by hotel is overpriced and never near anything cheaper. As a poor grad students, friends and I sharing a room all stocked up and granola bars, nuts, dried fruit, etc. to get us through and not spend as much money on food. (We also brought plastic silverware.) If our room had a fridge we ran to the CVS/Walgreens, etc. and picked up bottled water/fresh fruit/yogurt, etc. to get us through conference.
      6. Depending on conference, don’t lose your name-badge. At some conferences, we couldn’t get into certain areas without our name-badge. (Like lunch, or the opening night reception).
      7. Depends on the conference — I’ve found some conferences very clicky–everyone has a “tier” (top scholars!), grad schools at prestigous schools, lowly grad students, then all that alumni from each schoo creating other groups – and other conferences have been very collegial and friendly across the board.
      8. bring your business card (or have some printed up) so if you meet someone and want to exchage papers, etc. late you can quick hand them you card (maybe write a note — wants to get copy of your presentation) when you see the in the hall, or catch the after their presentation
      9. Enjoy yourself. I’ve met some great people that I still collaborate with at conferences and two people I’ve only met once at a conference in my life remain great “pen pal” friends a decade later…

      1. Sophia in the DMV*

        The reading thing from the podium is field specific. I never used to, but just did for one and it was fine

    2. Grits McGee*

      If the conference has networking events, take advantage of them! Big, unstructured events like the reception on the first night are pretty intimidating and people who already know each other tend to stick together, but smaller events like tours, lunches, and discussion groups are an easy and low-pressure way to meet people.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      Practice your talk. If you can, get a colleague (preferably more senior) to listen to your talk and ask nasty questions. Make sure your slides can be read from the back of a large room by people over 40. Make special versions of figures with labels that are big enough to be read from the back of the room. Have a backup version of your slides, in whatever format you usually use, plus Microsoft Office and PDF, and put them on a memory stick. In my field talks without slides just wouldn’t happen, so that’s subject dependent.

      If you’re giving a poster, fabric posters are amazing – you don’t need a poster tube, and they can double as a beach blanket afterwards. For posters, print out a set of letter or A4 sized copies of the poster so people can take them with them if they want (plus an envelope and tacks to fasten them to the poster board). If you can’t read the poster in letter size, the font is too small.

      If you have published a paper on your topic, print and take copies with you, so you can hand it over if someone you’re talking to is interested.

      Talk to people! It can be intimidating as a junior person, but it’s really valuable. Keep in mind that a lot of informal discussion occurs outside of official sessions, over dinner or beer.

  103. Michele*

    Hi all. I have an Google+ interview with a major tech company today that was scheduled through a recruiter. The recruiter originally told me that this was a social media coordinator opening, but after having received the information it appears that the job is something totally different (with the title of Community Specialist). I’m definitely doing the interview, but I feel a bit confused. Should I say something to the recruiter about this afterwards?

    1. Murphy*

      Yes, and I would make sure during the interview that you have firm understanding of what the job entails. (You don’t have to tell them what the recruiter told you, but I’d follow up with them after, definitely.)

      2. rubyrose*

        Yes, straighten this out in the interview. I had one once where the hiring manager had given the recruiter the wrong job description. The correct information was posted on the company website.

    1. Sadsack*

      What do you mean exactly? Your accomplishments are the same no matter who you worked for, aren’t they?

    2. Future Analyst*

      Umm, woah. That’s a lot of managerial turnover. Write up a list of accomplishments from the year, and if you have project managers that can speak to your work on any particular project(s), ask them to pass along feedback to your current manager on your behalf. Be prepared to give a general rundown of what you’ve done for the company/projects/team during the year, and this is absolutely a time to generously toot your own horn (obviously don’t make anything up, but if you did something awesome, be very direct about it). Good luck!

      1. MM*

        Yes I agree it is a lot of turnover! Thank you for your advice. 2 left of their own accord or others were laid off. Only 3 still remain in the org, and I feel it was too short of a time with each to them to even request their feedback.

    3. designbot*

      I’d say that’s an opportunity to position yourself the way you want instead of letting management feedback pigeonhole you. Go in knowing what you want your narrative to be and own it.

  106. Lemon Zinger*

    In light of the overtime law not passing, and with prospects of its eventual approval grim, I talked to a supervisor (not my own) about learning more about using flex time, which my colleagues, who report to her, can use. She let my supervisor know that I asked, and my boss reached out to me about it. I emailed her very professionally, stating that I had hoped to be compensated for working overtime in some way.

    Fingers crossed that she gives me the okay! While we’re in a slow season right now, I often work 50+ hours per week and it really gets to me.

    On a similar note, I was randomly handed a letter by our ED the other day stating that I am getting a “merit-based” raise of a few hundred dollars. It’s insultingly low and I’m disappointed in my manager for not giving me the letter herself, or at least discussing it with me. I know full well that this raise is what all employees get after their first year here so I really dislike the wording in the letter.

    *Sigh* Is it the holidays yet?

  107. JMegan*

    My partner just texted me to ask if I could pick up a gift for his manager for Christmas. I almost responded “Gifts flow downward!!!!” but decided not to. :)

    1. Lillian Styx*

      I had to have that conversation with my father! He and all the managers each chip in $100 each year to get the owner something. It adds up to almost $2k!! My head almost blew off! The owner is very generous with them throughout the year but still!

    2. N.J.*

      I wish people at any of the jobs I work at understood the gifts flow downward thing. I’ve given up, I just chip in or whatever. Cue this year at a new place–my coworkers asked for five bucks to chip in for something for our main boss, I did it because I don’t want to make waves. What’s worse they presented it to the boss at our holiday party in full view of the newer assistant manager style individual who went out of her way to get each of us something. If gifts are going to flow upward they should at least be nice about it. So I felt bad and went and bought a small gift to leave in the assistant manager’s office. If gifts only flowed downward this wouldn’t have happened!

  108. SophieChotek*

    This is sort of work-related.
    My hands are always cold at work (or at home for that matter).
    The rest of me is fine — I layer up, and might be sitting in front of my computer with my jacket and hat on, and a blanket over my legs — but I’m warm enough. But my hands are cold.
    I’ve got some fingerless gloves (pull the mitten part back, Eddie Bauer), but the fabric makes my fingers too “fat” (plus the thumbs are completely covered) and I cannot type comfortably in them. I’ve tried thinner cotton gloves and thinner knit gloves (completely covered) — and still too “fat” to type accurately or quickly.
    Any ideas?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I have bad circulation and my hands and feet are always cold! Getting up and moving around helps me a lot. I also got a nice ceramic thermos recently that warms my hands up when I hold it. Even filling it with hot water is nice.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      I have some that are really thin, so not sure how much they’d help with keeping warm, but I love the StoriArts gloves. They don’t have fingers, come up to just about your knuckles and cover about half your thumb.

    3. Not Karen*

      Arm warmers? Sock dreams (dot com) has a selection in all sorts of lengths and finger hole arrangements.

    4. ATXFay*

      I also get up and move around.. and keep a warm cup of water nearby. Sometimes I just snuggle it to keep warm. Our offices have been subarctic this year (air handler issue?? too technical for my cold little brain). It really helps though. When I start to feel my hands get cold but know I can’t get up for a good walk, I’ll just hold my mug and it warms me to the core.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I have an electric “beverage warmer” made by Mr. Coffee that you set your coffee or tea cup on. It is sort of like a little hot plate, too hot to touch directly with your hand, but it never gets hot enough to boil water. It is great for keeping your tea or coffee warm, and by extension, for keeping your hands warm from the warm cup.

        The only downside is that I always worry about accidentally leaving it turned on when I go home for the day and burning down the office building. I try to make a point of unplugging it (not just turning it off) when I leave the office.

    5. Emi.*

      I hold a mug of boiling water or tea. Would that work, or are you typing constantly?

      Also, what about totally fingerless gloves/emo arm warmers with thumbholes, with hand warmers tucked inside against your palms? (You can get reusable hand warmers now! What a time to be alive.)

      1. SophieChotek*

        I do pretty much have to type constantly, or I am scrolling through reports, so one hand is almost always on the mouse. (that’s why I keep trying to find gloves that would work.)

        I will definitely have to look into those reusable hand-warmers too.

        1. Nanc*

          Fingerless craft/arthritis gloves!! Dritz, Creative Craft, IMAK and Isotoner are a few brands. I prefer the IMAK. I’ve found them at fabric and craft stores as well as Walgreens and Walmart. I spend the majority of the day tippy typing away and they work great. Plus they’re machine washable and dryable.

          1. SophieChotek*

            Thanks – I looked at Target, no luck. But I’ll look at craft stores (we have quite a few around here) and of course, Walgreens and Walmart too.

    6. Judy*

      Get wrist warmers, they’re the ones that are just tube like, with a slit for the thumb. They end right over your knuckles. I’ve seen knit ones, and LLBean has fleece ones.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Drink more water. I’d recommend getting some vitamin E and possibly B.
      You could get checked by a chiro to see if something is closing off circulation.

      Make sure your wrist on the mouse side is up in the air or resting on something soft.

      I think I saw tiny heaters with fans in them. Maybe you could get something like that to aim at your hands.

  109. Bagworm*

    I am a new manager and have an employee who on a few occasions has acted unprofessionally. She gets defensive and aggressive when questioned and when I’ve talked about it with her she says it’s my problem if I take her behavior as unprofessional (said same thing to my boss). Any suggestions on other ways to communicate this to her?

    1. Sadsack*

      Well, are there any consequences for her if she doesn’t change how she responds in these situations? What are they? Once you figure out how much more you are willing to put up with and what you are going to do about it, then you need to tell her in no uncertain terms.

    2. CM*

      I think you need to be clear that she needs to handle questions and feedback better, and this is a key part of her job performance. When she says that it’s your problem if you take her behavior as unprofessional, you can calmly reply that as her boss, you decide what behavior is appropriate for the workplace, and you are telling her that her behavior needs to change. You can also point out that when she says it’s your problem, this is an example of how she takes criticism poorly.

      You can also coach her by giving her examples of how to handle the situation better. You can say something like, “When I tell you X, what I would like to hear from you is that you understand X and will do it going forward. And then I would like to see you demonstrate this by doing X as part of your daily work.”

      If you don’t see an improvement, I agree with Sadsack — at that point, you can say that this is happened multiple times, you have warned her about it and given her advice on how to improve, and tell her what the consequences are (discipline, demotion, termination, etc.)

  110. Crylo Ren*

    Fanciest work holiday party you’ve been to? Most amount of effort you’ve put in for a work holiday party?

    This will be my first holiday party with my current company (financial services / tech) and it sounds like it will be a swanky affair. Was originally going to just reuse a sheath dress I wore to a wedding last year and do my own hair & makeup, but after overhearing other ladies in my department talk about getting their hair, nails, and makeup professionally done and their floor length gowns (?!?!?), I changed tack and will be getting my hair did and am renting a midi-length lace number. I’m still doing my own makeup – partly to save a little money, but mostly because all the makeup counters I knew of are fully booked.

    It’ll take me pretty much an entire day to get ready. All things considered I have probably spent close to $250 on my #aesthetic. For ONE night. I feel a bit ill about it, but I’m telling myself to look at it like the prom I never had, and honestly I’m just happy this job pays me well enough that I can comfortably afford it, as long as this is a once-a-year thing. Still a bit painful though.

    1. Future Analyst*

      No experience with anything similar, but O_O on the formality! That’s a very fancy party, I’m surprised they do something similar every year.

      1. Crylo Ren*

        My reaction exactly! This is only the second such party they’ve thrown (company is very new) and I think they can afford to throw such lavish parties because it’s still a fairly small company but a very lucrative product.
        I’m expecting they’ll start scaling back next year, though, so I guess I’ll enjoy(?) it while it lasts!

    2. Murphy*

      I’ve never worked anywhere with a fancy holiday party. My husband’s old job had a fairly fancy one, but nothing like that. I have never paid anyone to do my makeup, and probably wouldn’t, unless a bunch of friends were doing it and it was more of a fun activity thing. And I haven’t paid to have my hair styled since prom.

    3. KR*

      My husband’s military so every November they throw a ball. He’s not required to go but he has to have a really good reason not to attend. So far I’ve been to two of them and this year’s was in Las Vegas. Compared to other balls, this one was very expensive in comparison because of the location.

    4. Alice Ulf*

      I miss my employer’s holiday party, which was a fairly fancy affair at the clubhouse of a high-end golf course. We used it as our once-a-year excuse to dress up–mostly suits and cocktail dresses though, not formal wear. It was catered by the clubhouse, and the ED would get a well-known local news anchor to DJ each year. I never spent too much, because Ross always has a great dress selection on clearance at the end of fall, so I could pick up a new dress for under $50. The shoes usually cost twice that, ha. There was always mild drinking and dancing, but no one ever went wild or acted inappropriately. However…I’m sure it was horribly expensive for the organization. Once our old ED retired, his replacement ended the party and gave us Christmas Eve off, paid, instead. Which I also appreciate. :3

      I am totally in favor of any excuse to feel fancy, and you hardly sound like a big spender in general. Go knowing that you look and feel fantastic, which is absolutely worth the price imo.

  111. Jessi*

    So this week I got a permeant job offer after what has been an especially turbulent year. Yay, right? Except that the salary offered for the position is different to what it was advertised at. Its a small difference (around 1000$) a year but at the same time I feel like they’ve pulled a bait and switch and further complicated by the fact that there is an agency so the blame could lie with them. So do I pass on the job knowing I’ll be starting out on the wrong foot? ie cross. Other than the money problem it is otherwise a good fit for me in terms of my career goals and options for travel.

    I’ve got an interview for another job this weekend for a country it will be my last chance to go to – next year I will out-age the right to a visa. The wage there is very similar – do I hold out hope? Do I use the offer from job #1 to try and speed up an offer from job 2? The second job will look just as good on my CV. So much agonising going on right now!

    1. Future Analyst*

      I think you should communicate with job 1 that the salary advertised was $x, and you were surprised to see their offer of $x-1000, then ask if they can offer $x. However, don’t do this if you’re planning on jumping ship for job 2 regardless– I think if you take the job, walk into it with the assumption that you’re planning on staying for a while. Good luck!

      1. Jessi*

        I have and they have said they communicated to the agency that it should have been $x-1000. So it is their final offer. I’m having trouble deciding if I am ok with that or not.

        1. Future Analyst*

          Mmm. How much time do you have to decide? If you have time to interview with job 2, and it goes very well, tell job 2 you have another offer but you’d prefer to work with them. There’s no guarantee that they’ll speed things up for you, but I don’t think it can hurt.

  112. Sibley*

    I’m sad about an org chart change. I’ve been reporting to Eowyn, and she’s a GREAT manager for me. Perfect balance of involvement vs. letting me work, etc. Very flexible, if I want to work from home no questions, etc. Just her style works for me extremely well.

    Starting in January, I’ll be reporting to Arwen. I like Arwen, I’ve worked with her a lot, I know she’s a good manager. But after Eowyn, Arwen is just gonna be ok.

    From their perspective, it makes a lot of sense for me to report to Arwen since almost everything I do she manages. But I like Eowyn so much! Just bummed.

    1. Future Analyst*

      Same situation just came up for me! Like manager B just fine, but LOVED manager A’s work-style and approach. No advice, really, just sympathy.

    2. NACSACJACK*

      I keep having to train manager after manager after manager and its been going on for years. :) Just train Arwen well.

  113. No Weed Please*

    My job is that of a glorified gopher. I pick up papers with the number of a corresponding teapot mold, run around the facility to find the mold and then deliver it to the place the paper tells me. There are six of us in my company. We don’t have desks or anything and we all share a coat closet for our stuff. Four of my fellow gophers smoke a lot of pot, but one in particular smokes so much of it that he just reeks — and he’ll often bring it to work in his backpack, and it’s not well-sealed, so all the other coats and backpacks stink like pot. I’m not allergic to pot, but the smell does make me sick to my stomach, and I hate walking around smelling like pot after work. I brought it up once to my coworker and he said he would wrap his weed up better, but even if he did that, his coat and bag still smell so strongly that there’s no way around it. We don’t have an HR department, and the two owners of this company honestly don’t care about anyone’s wellbeing (I’ve seen them “jokingly” grab guys and throw them up against walls). It’s very much an “only the strong survive” workplace with not many women. A lot of the guys who work there have questionable activities outside of work. I’ve been trying to get a new job but no luck so far. Is there anything I can do to keep from stinking of pot? The only other place I could put my coat is at my manager’s desk but — surprise — he also smokes a ton of pot and all his clothes stink of it too.

    1. Emi.*

      My goodness. This sounds terrible and ridiculous, and I’m sorry. Baking soda works as an odor absorber–could you put some in the closet? You can get it in boxes with a mesh panel in the side for absorbing odors in the fridge. Also, could you put your own coat and things in a plastic bag before you put them in the closet?

    2. Kristinemc*

      You can also get a type of sponge to absorb the odor, should baking soda not work – I think they are called “bad air sponges”? Jolie Kerr, from Ask a Clean Person, talks about them.

    3. CM*

      Do you drive to work? If so, can you leave your coat in the car?
      I like the idea of putting it in a bag too — maybe something thicker than a plastic bag, and you can keep dryer sheets inside for the smell.

  114. Maverick*

    I will be starting a new job working as a CSR in January! Since I never worked for an online retail website before, I was wondering if anybody worked in the same sector. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

    1. animaniactoo*

      As the customer who has been guilty of it (I’ve myself and explained this and apologized for it to the rep in the middle of the call) – remember that they are not actually angry at or frustrated with you. They are angry and frustrated and you’re getting some of the brunt because you’re there when they’re dealing with it. Lookout for and treasure the ones who either don’t do that, or who at least have the grace to recognize it and apologize for it.

  115. Forever Anon*

    I wrote in last Friday about fire safety and I have an update. I explained the building procedures to Jane et al and when the fire alarm went off earlier in the week everyone was calm. Since we’ve had more false alarms this year than in years past I talked to building manager about it. She said that construction on lower level floors is setting it off and she hopes to resolve the issue in the coming weeks. I agree with everyone that the procedures aren’t great but I’m not sure if there’s anything I can do.

    1. Alice*

      You’ve done what you can do, I think, by communicating with Jane and the building manager. I hope you don’t feel too stressed about it.

      1. Forever Anon*

        I was really stressed out that day but I think what’s overwhelming for me is assisting a high profile CEO when he’s in town (his real assistant works out of our HQ in the Midwest) while performing Office Manager type duties. I guess I should look at it as a really cool thing because for a long time I did little more than order office supplies and assist my junior level supervisor before he left the company.

  116. GigglyPuff*

    So I can’t remember if this was an Open Thread post or a write-in post (though I really feel like it was an Open Thread post), has there been any update on the poster who was being essentially bullied and stalked by a guy at their high school? The one who worked at a fast food restaurant and the bully got a job there also, and the poster didn’t know how to bring it up to their manager.
    Just hoping everything is okay.

  117. Micromanager*

    As I was writing a frustrated email to one of my employees today (haven’t sent it, I need to communicate the content but not as I’ve written it), I realized that one of the issues he must have with me is that I have been micromanaging him. Things like “I need you to use this version of the document and save it to this particular folder” (is that micromanaging? I didn’t think it was, but then he used a different version of the document and saved it to a different folder, so maybe he was pushing back), and “I need this before you go home tonight.” He has a huge ego, has been in his job for 12 years to my one year, has a lot of knowledge…but is not used to being managed at all. In my opinion, he does everything possible to avoid being accountable for doing his job (“I didn’t get X done because you keep giving me different things to do”) and seems to be gaslighting me. Members of the teapot-using community love him; members of the teapot-MAKING community find him an obstacle to getting the teapots made. In his opinion, I’m not treating him like a professional.

    My boss, who has been on my side for the past year, now tells me that if it came down to him or me, it would be a close call, because he’s shown he can manage my office and I haven’t shown that. My biggest obstacle to managing the office is managing him. My boss says I need to use him for his valuable knowledge and experience. And I would love to, but we now have a year of history that leaves me feeling like if I can’t rely on him to do something simple like save a file in the correct folder, how can I rely on him for substantive things?

    Anyway…advice for how to get out of the micromanaging-resentment spiral so that I can trust my employee to do his job and he can feel valued?

    1. LizB*

      I don’t think what you’re doing sounds like micromanaging, at least not as you’ve described it here… as long as the things you’re asking of your employee have some kind of reason behind them. Why does he have to use that version of the document? Why does it need to go to that folder? Why is the deadline for that thing before he goes home tonight? I’m assuming you have good answers to all of these questions, which to me, would make these requests just plain old managing, not micromanaging. To me, micromanaging would be, “I need this before you go home tonight” *30 minutes pass* “How’s that thing coming along?” *30 minutes pass* “Do you need help with the thing?” *30 minutes pass* “Can you give me an ETA on the thing?” etc. etc.

      I don’t have any advice, but it doesn’t sound like you’re doing anything wrong, so I understand why you’re frustrated.

      1. Micromanager*

        Thanks for this feedback. The answer to “why is the deadline tonight” is because I’ve been asking for it for months. But also in general if I don’t give him a specific time to do something by, I then can’t hold him accountable for not getting it done. So did that thing really need to be done last night? No. But it needs to be done. (Consider: we’re in charge of storing all the teapots in the county. So we need to know where all the teapots are. He’s the “keeper” of the inventory but doesn’t update everyone in the office when there’s a change. The document I asked for is the inventory.)

      2. NACSACJACK*

        And when you give him something with a high-priority or you know you’ve given him a bunch, ask him to run down a list of his assignments/tasks – and prioritize them for him. He really should be asking you for this…I have this this and this, what do you want done first? but it seems he doesnt want you to know what he has on his desk.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Start with a conversation. You have to win him over to your side and to your authority. So when he saves the wrong version of the file to the wrong folder, call him in and *ask him* “Hey, Joe. I asked you to do it this way, is there a reason you did it that way?” Listen to what he has to say, if he’s got a good point, “Thanks for filling me in. In the future, if you think something needs to be done a different way, I need you to run it by me for my sign-off before you do it, okay?” If he’s got a point but it doesn’t matter: “Okay, I understand what you’re looking at, but that’s not what I need here, so please do it the way I asked you to do it.”

      Play up your respect for his knowledge, and then address it as you needing him to work with you please so that what he does is what you actually need and not a waste of his efforts because you really don’t want him to have wasted time doing something you can’t use, etc.

      If you’re redoing stuff instead of him because of time sensitivity, you may need to build some delays into a few things to give you time to push him back so that the redo falls on his desk rather than yours. So that it becomes a bigger pain for him than it does for you when he does it the wrong way.

  118. Lucy Westenra*

    Prolly this will get lost in the thread but if anyone has any advice …
    I recently (a few days ago) got canned from my job as a Teapot Technician. I don’t blame them; I wasn’t up to snuff on a pretty important skill. HR said I could reapply in a few months after I’d mastered that skill. The head of Operations, who was also on the phone, said not to limit my options and that there were plenty of other teapot handling companies to apply to. My question is, was HR Lady just being polite? Will they take me back? I loved working there like you wouldn’t believe. If it means anything, in the local teapot scene Technicians are pretty much interchangeable parts, and everyone’s always horrifically short-staffed.

    1. Mints*

      I think they were both trying to be nice and helpful “We’d take you back if you learn the skill but no hard feelings if you go somewhere else” It’s not really contradictory. I’m sorry to hear.

      1. Lucy Westenra*

        Thanks. Makes sense.
        Additional complication, but it’s more of a social skills question:
        Before I got the axe, one of the supervisors told me that if I ever needed anything I could contact him. After I got fired, I emailed him asking for advice on what to do next. I’d never been fired before and it was my first professional job, so I was kind of spinning. Now I’m feeling that that was kind of inappropriate, since we don’t work together anymore. How badly did I screw up?

        1. Colette*

          I think it’s fine that you asked – maybe it wasn’t the best option, but reasonable people will be sympathetic even if they don’t know how to help. But I wouldn’t follow up if he doesn’t answer.

          1. Lucy Westenra*

            Thanks. He hasn’t answered, and frankly I’m glad; it would be awkward. Once I had some time to think I figured out what to do on my own.

  119. anon for now*

    Our boss stole our holiday fundraising money. We fundraise around the holidays for party stuff etc. and we had about $600 in cash left over from last year. Or, we thought we did, but it turns out our boss took it. He says it was to pay for our Christmas gifts (which is definitely not true, since most people got vouchers our boss got for free and the ones who didn’t got gift cards, so we know how much was spent and the numbers don’t add up). (Also, we didn’t get our Christmas gifts until July, but that’s another story…)

    But even if he had spent it all on gifts, the money wasn’t his to spend on his own in the first place. It was the team’s independent fundraising proceeds, not company money. I think we should demand he pay it back and report it if he doesn’t. Nobody else wants to do anything and the other managers just say that from now on we will hide our fundraising proceeds from our boss.

    I think that’s crazy and we should be taking this more seriously. Or am I wrong and should I just let it go?

      1. anon for now*

        That’s what I said! But everyone was a bit shocked when I referred to what he did as “stealing.”

    2. Sadsack*

      I wouldn’t let it go. Can you go to his boss or HR? I mean, is this money that all of you contributed? Or else where did this money come from? I can’t see how he can say he used money you contributed to buy you gifts. Someone higher up needs to get involved.

      1. anon for now*

        It’s a bit difficult to go higher-up right now because the company is going through a merger and most people above my boss are losing their jobs and are not very interested in getting involved in anything (and the people who will be above my boss in the future won’t have any authority over him for a good year+). I still think it should be reported just so there’s something on record.

        The money is from lunch sales and bake sales we had last year (which I, my peers and lower-level management contributed to and our boss did not). It was all in cash and we were keeping it in our safe. I think it might be difficult to get anywhere in reporting him without the support of the other managers, since they’re the only ones who can 1) verify that only they and boss had access to the safe and 2) verify how much money was there. But they don’t think there’s any point since they have reported this guy over worse things than a missing $600 (something I have only just found out during this stolen holiday cash drama!) and don’t want to bother even talking to the guy anymore.

        I guess I can go to HR by myself but everyone else on the team thinks this is much too shocking and audacious. I don’t really get why.

    3. T3k*

      If it was a small amount, like $100, I’d say let it go and don’t let him know again about the money. But this is a big chunk that was never his to play with AND as he gave out gift cards, it’s very easy to calculate that it’s not equaling $600, so the question is, where is the rest? Plus, this may be going off the deep end, but what’s to say he hasn’t been “borrowing” money from other areas? At least if it gets reported, there could be trail if down the road money isn’t adding up elsewhere.

      1. anon for now*

        Maybe you’re off the deep end but then I am too. We have a budget for stuff like holiday parties and other team-building events (fundraising is just for anything extra that doesn’t cover) but over the last year our boss has gotten more and more unwilling to approve anything. He can’t really say no to a holiday party but he was coming up with SO many excuses why we just couldn’t have one, or if we did we had to have it next week, etc, and it’s all gotten me really suspicious.

        Add to that how he’s been spending less and less time in the office and behaving increasingly weirdly, and you’ve got a real rabbit hole! But we’re going through a merger right now and my boss is one of the highest-level people keeping his job, so it’s really awkward to report anything. The people above him don’t care because they’re leaving and the people who will be above him in the future won’t have any authority for probably another year. Plus I’m 99% certain the people above him wouldn’t do anything anyway, in light of past incidents.

        But I still want to report it just for the sake of doing it.

        1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

          If he’s acting that weirdly… does he have access to any other funding/cards/money? You might have a bigger problem than you think.

          1. anon for now*

            That…is an extremely good point and for some reason I’d never thought of it like that till now. I reported it. Who knows if anything will come of it but at least they’ll have something on record now.

  120. Mrs. Boo*

    What is the conventional wisdom when applying for a position that asks if you have a disability? I’m thinking of applying for a position at a university and part of the automated question process includes a question of whether I am or have been disabled. For the record, I have OCD, mostly in remission now. Is there an advantage to disclosing that or am I setting myself up for drama later on? Similarly, it is optional to disclose race and gender. Again, is there some benefit to not disclosing these (even though a quick Google search will easily answer both questions)?

    1. Lucy Westenra*

      Ooh, that’s a tough one. I ran into it a few years ago, and they specifically listed my disability under “for example …” The question is, do they want to know so that they can be an equal-opportunity employer, or so that they can discriminate? My rule for life in general is to err on the side of suspicion, so I said no, and for OCD I’d advise saying no too, because so many people think that OCD means you’re picky and annoying and I can’t see how it would help. But maybe someone else has had a different experience.

    2. LizB*

      Usually those kinds of questionnaires will be sent to a totally different part of the system than your resume & actual hiring information — in an ideal world, the hiring manager would never even see them, the organization would just use the data in the aggregate to see if they’re getting as diverse a candidate pool as possible.

    3. Emi.*

      I think it depends–for the federal government, there’s definitely an advantage (Schedule A hiring); do you know whether the university in question has any kind of similar program?

    4. Merit*

      I’m guessing it goes straight into some data tracking system and isn’t even available for hiring managers to see.

  121. Mrs. Boo*

    What is the conventional wisdom when applying for a position that asks if you have a disability? I’m thinking of applying for a position at a university and part of the automated question process includes a question of whether I am or have been disabled. For the record, I have OCD, mostly in remission now. Is there an advantage to disclosing that or am I setting myself up for drama later on? Similarly, it is optional to disclose race and gender. Again, is there some benefit to not disclosing these (even though a quick Google search will easily answer both questions)?

  122. Bad Candidate*

    Twice now I’ve been contacted by a recruiter via LinkedIn (internal to the employers) and brought in for a face to face interview with the HR recruiter. Both times it could have been handled as a phone screen (IMO) and both times it went no further because they ended up selecting internal candidates. I get that they want to be certain they choose the best candidate, but it seems to me that it was really just a formality and at the expense of my PTO. Is there any way to mitigate this? I’m tired of burning my PTO on fruitless interviews.

    1. Mrs. Boo*

      Since they’re the ones contacting you, I would make it a requirement that they conduct the interview over the phone or via Skype. You make it clear you aren’t going to burn PTO until you really need to.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Is this the same recruiter for both interviews? If so, then definitely have a talk with them and no more face to face interviews without a phone or Skype interview first. Fool me twice…

      OTOH, if these happened with two different recruiters, I’d be a more inclined to think that you’ve run into a couple of bad apples.

      I don’t know if it is true, but I’ve heard that when recruiters only have a single “good” candidate to send to a potential client, they’ll also send a couple of faux candidates (wasting these people’s time) who aren’t as qualified with the expectation that their “good” candidate will get hired and they’ll get the commission. Do you think that might be what is going on?

  123. Brogrammer*

    I’ve posted before about how I was semi-recently Peter Principled into a management position and expected to figure out this management thing on my own. Recently I had some conflict with upper management, which was its own special kind of hell, but in the process I learned that my reports have complete confidence in me and aren’t afraid to say so. I knew a lot of what not to do (don’t yell, etc) before discovering AAM, but the things I’ve learned here have helped me immensely. Thank you Alison, and thank you comments section. I don’t think I could have done it without you.

  124. Is this normal...*

    My friend works for a public library, and for some reason, Sunday hours don’t count as real hours. Like if she works 35 hours Mon-Sat and 8 hours on Sun, she gets paid 43 straight hours, instead of 40 straight pay and 3 overtime. Same thing for insurance. She works over their threshold to earn insurance, but because some of those hours are worked on Sunday, she doesn’t qualify. Is this normal?

    2. Murphy*

      It depends on how their week is set up. If the week starts on Sunday, then those Sunday hours wouldn’t be overtime for the previous week (but presumably she’d get overtime the following week if she worked another 35 hours in addition to those Sunday hours).

      1. Is this normal...*

        I don’t know what day the week starts, but no, if she worked 43 every week, it would be 43 straight hours every week.

    3. NACSACJACK*

      yes, it is possible. I dont remember where it was, but I worked in a union shop where the union negotiated that Sunday hours didn’t count and so the part-time workers could be forced to work Sunday, putting in a 40+ hour week so long as the hours Mon-Sat did not exceed the mininum full-time status hours. This is why a few years ago, full-time requirement was lowered from 37.5 down to 32 hours.

  125. Menacia*

    How in the hell do I deal with a coworker who runs to my boss every time I assign him work because I didn’t “go to him to let him know”? We work in a helpdesk, there are 5 of us, I am currently up to my eyeballs in a major project and everyone else is doing very low-priority work. I rarely assign work to anyone else, I always take on (too much) but it’s been okay, until now. My boss even sent out an email that I was not to have any tickets assigned to me that were not specific to the project I’m working on or the applications I support specifically, and that I would be assigning Incidents that did not fall under the previous categories. Why the hell do I have to ask him if I can give him work to do? My boss is of no help because she specifically brought up in our recent meeting that we should not just assign tickets to other staff without letting them know first, and I knew it “reminder” from his complaint. I’m so sick and tired of this, I don’t run to my boss when everyone and their brother assigns me work, because I’m here to actually do work…go figure! So what I will do now is send an email to let him know I’m assigning something, and if he has any questions/issues, to let me know. I used to ask him directly to do things but he ALWAYS had an excuse. I’m very passive-aggressive with him because he’s been such a sucky coworker, even from the get go. Come on Powerball!

    1. Sadsack*

      You probably should tell him that if he has any issues, he should let your boss know. You are giving him the required notice and working on what you are supposed to be, so let your manager deal with his complaining.

  126. Alice*

    TLDR: I’m not sure if a particular project is part of my job and no one wants to clarify.

    My workplace has had some changes lately. There’s a hot potato kind of project that belongs to someone who’s gone part-time. The woman who’s gone part-time has suggested several times that I should be the next person to hold the hot potato, but my boss and my boss’s boss haven’t mentioned it.

    If it’s actually my potato, I can handle it. But I don’t want to spend time on it unless I have to. What my grandboss has said is “the potato is on the agenda,” no more details. I suspect any more questions about whether it’s my potato will be taken as volunteering to hold the potato.

    I may be a little sensitive to this kind of thing because of a pattern of “let’s discuss this in more detail soon” or “let’s get all the stakeholders in the room” and then no more action (that I see, at least) for a long time. If it is my potato, I want to start fixing things now, not later.

    So — ask or wait for instructions? Thanks for advice!

    1. Murphy*

      I’d get on top of it and ask if it’s yours. That way it doesn’t get thrown at you later with not enough time to deal with it.

    2. fposte*

      Heh. “Any more questions about whether it’s my potato will be taken as volunteering to hold the potato.” Yup, that’s how it goes.

      I think you have to do your own math here. I have Friday brain and can’t do the formula, but basically you’re figuring out if the downside of getting a late start on the potato is more important than the upside of not having to take the potato at all, so you need to figure out both how likely you are to get the potato and how much difference the headstart would make.

      But it’s also possible that you can raise this privately with your manager, and asking for what you want. “Lucinda wants to hand this off to me. I would really rather not add that to my plate. Is that possible?”

    3. N.J.*

      I’m sorry your issue is serious and the advice given was great. But for some reason all I can focus on is the potato analogy and I am giggly uncontrollably. Thank your for the unintended levity.

  127. MsChanandlerBong*

    This is related to the volunteering I am doing, but I think it’s sufficiently work-related since it involves an HR-led orientation session. If not, feel free to remove!

    I will be doing some volunteering for an organization I hold very dear to my heart. The catch is that my placement is actually not in the main organization’s building, but a building owned by a statewide health system. So, in addition to doing the org’s volunteer orientation, I had to pass muster with the folks at the health system, complete their pre-hire TB test, and attend their orientation session. The very first thing the HR person asked us to do was say “My name is ___, I will be working in ____, and this is my silly dance.” We had to do a silly dance in front of a room full of people. My main complaint is that I have had back surgery four times, and I recently had to go to urgent care for a back spasm that left me unable to walk or even breathe without being in pain. But they just assumed everyone was able to do the dance, and if I wanted to refuse, I’d have to explain in front of the whole room of people that I have back problems. I ended up just kind of waving my hands around, but I just hate that ableism is the norm and a great deal of people just assume that if you’re not in a wheelchair, there’s no reason you can’t do physical icebreakers.

    2. Brogrammer*

      That’s pretty messed up of them. And even if someone is physically capable of dancing, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re comfortable doing so in front of a room of strangers.

    3. Jules the First*

      My favourite icebreaker (and I use ‘favourite’ loosely, because, really, nobody likes icebreakers) is to get people to say their least favourite vegetable, and why.

      I was at an away day a while ago where the icebreaker was “who was your first boyfriend and how would your life have been different if you’d married him?”….awkward!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Off topic, but I had a good size muscle spasm next to my spine running my entire back. I tried a TENS unit on it and I could not believe how much that helped. But I had to fiddle with placement of the pads. The pads can’t go right on the muscle, they have to get placed on the sides where there is no spasm.
      My way of saying, I feel for you and your achin’ back.

  128. Anonymeese*

    Hi! I’m fairly new to working and I’m not sure how to handle my coworker right now. This is my second year working at a small company. We didn’t receive a big bonus last year, but everyone knew the company wasn’t doing well. This year we received a few hundred dollars. I was happy to receive anything because I knew the big boss had bought an expensive new house (while complaining about how the company was doing, sigh). My coworker has a very different opinion. She told me everyone received two weeks’ worth of pay in the years before last year, accused our bosses of being cheap, etc.

    I tried to sympathize and reminded her it was more than we got last year, but she angrily told me she had planned to pay her mortgage with the bonus, that I wouldn’t understand because I didn’t have children/was single, and that it was unfair they hadn’t budgeted for our bonuses. I reminded her I have student loans and expenses too! She got huffy and told me it was my choice to go to school, and has been short with me all day.

    I feel bad for her, but at the same time, I know she bought her children very expensive electronics (her kids will feel left out if they don’t get a Macbook? Okay…), and overall don’t think she and her husband manage money well. I’m afraid some of that may have come out in my tone.Should I have done anything differently? Should I do anything now?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Let it go. There probably wasn’t anything you could’ve said short of total agreement with her that would’ve kept her happy.

    2. not so super-visor*

      Just keep repeating: not my circus, not my monkeys (Polish proverb)

      You’re not responsible for her happiness. No one else is either.

      On a side note: what did she do last year when you didn’t get any bonus?

    3. fposte*

      You possibly could have disengaged and defused a little earlier in the cycle–when she’s unhappy because the bonus is lower than in 2014, you can say that you’re happy to have more than last year but you certainly understand that money gets tight. But overall it sounds like she was determined to more martyred than thou, and that’s on her. I’d keep it that way, though, by not getting sucked into thinking about how she has spent her money; I’d just accept that money is a sore spot for her and it’s legitimate to be disappointed that bonuses are overall trending less, even if they improved on last year. (It’s also legitimate *not* to be disappointed and she was rude about your legitimate opinion, but going forward just realize you guys aren’t likely to be on the same page on this one and it’s a touchy subject.)

    5. Hear you*

      This attitude is too common. Worked for a company that gave bonuses at Christmas. Not extreme but a nice amount and it went up a little each year. The year it was 2 weeks later than usually there was an up roar. The next year it was reduced and you would have thought some one had put a gun to their heads and stole from them. Too many of the employees counted on this money to pay for Christmas presents. I was just glad that neither my husband or I was employed there when they stopped the bonus completely. We have always put any moneys received above normal wages into savings not the normal budget.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        As an independent contractor, I had to learn a very hard lesson early on: there is no such thing as “guaranteed money” until the money is actually in your hands. When I first started, I would plan my budget based on how much I was owed. As you can imagine, I was left in the lurch the few times clients stiffed me (one of them for $1,310 when I really needed the money). Now I plan my budget and pay bills based on when the money is actually in my account. Bonuses are nice, but they are far from a sure thing.

  129. not so super-visor*

    ugh… I am feeling like a horrible supervisor. For reference, I “supervise” 30-35 people (I put that in paranthesis since there is no manager for our dept– never has been– I report directly to the director and VP. I’m responsible for hiring, training, coaching, payroll, PTO requests, the works…). Another department that we support had a holiday party and invited me to stop by. It was just a lunch, so I popped in for just a few minutes. There’s about 10 people in that department, and their manager had gotten them all REALLY nice, individualized gifts. It’s not the norm for my dept to do this since we’re larger, but I’m still feeling kind of crappy about it. This year has been rough with a lot of unexpected (and expensive) medical and home repair issues. My personal budget, even for family gifts, is incredibly small with no wiggle room. For the record, my department typically does not give the supervisor a gift either, which a) sounds close to social norms and b) makes me feel a little bit better. I don’t expect anything from the folks that report to me, but I still feel kind of terrible in the light of the gifts that the other department received. Any advise?

    1. Grayson*

      I’m going to steal a leaf out of other commenters books. Is it possible for you to write short quick notes of appreciate to your employees about their work? Even a few sentences goes a long way towards recognition, warm fuzzies and validation!

    2. Chaordic One*

      If you’re feeling brave you might say something to the director and VP and see if they want to do anything. If they don’t want to do anything, then let it go.

  130. TotesMaGoats*

    Mostly just a request for crossed fingers.

    Last Friday, I had my “introductory” conversation with a recruiter for an awesome role at a major institution. Duties and salary were ideal. It was 30 minutes long and I think it went great. I made her laugh and spoke clearly. And, miracle, I didn’t cough once in the 30 minutes and I’ve got a horrible cough right now. I sent her my resume, officially, on Saturday. Followed up on Tuesday to say that I’d officially applied. She responded saying that she was taking my resume to the hiring committee Thursday (yesterday). ACKKK! And that I’d hear something by 12/20. I’m trying to be patient but at the same time I’m compulsively checking my email…just in case.

  131. PoopEmoji*

    A few companies that I’m interested in working for don’t have any relevant jobs posted, but they do have blurbs about always looking for talented people with the option to submit a resume for a general application. Is this worthwhile or a waste of time?

    1. Lucy Westenra*

      How much effort does it take? If it’s just uploading a file and clicking submit, do it and then don’t think about it unless you get a response. Nothing wrong with a few longshot applications as long as you don’t count on them.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      It can’t hurt, but it is a long shot. Send in a resume and also apply specifically to any jobs they post in the future.

  132. Emilia Bedelia*

    I got an award at work this week! It was in recognition of a little project I helped another team with. I really didn’t think it was that big of a deal, just a few hours of research and some time spent talking with the team, but they really liked it, apparently! It came with a gift card, which is obviously very nice, but the letter that explains the reasons why they nominated me for the award is so much more meaningful- I smile every time I think about it. I’ve never gotten recognition like that before, and I’ve been at my job for less than a year, so it’s just so nice to know that something I worked hard on was appreciated.

    I haven’t mentioned it to any of my coworkers except for my boss, so I’m telling you all instead :)

  133. Kelli*

    Help!

    After a two year job search I landed an amazing job, I am giving notice on Monday and am freaked out about how to do it and what to do with the potential nastly reaction. Literally I am struggling with the wording to my boss?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      How long have you been in this role? Regardless, your wording should be something like this:

      “Jane, I’ve really enjoyed my time here at XXX company, but it’s time for me to move on to other things. My last day will be XXX. Let’s brainstorm what you need from me to make the transition smooth.”

      1. Kelli*

        Almost 20 years…not the same role but same area. The problem is I haven’t enjoyed anything in the last few years. Personal issues have kept me there too long.

    2. Murphy*

      Be as brief and matter of fact as possible. Don’t soften anything. Just “This is happening. Make your peace.”

    3. H.C.*

      “I want to let you know I have decided to move on and pursue another professional opportunity elsewhere (or ‘ with employer X’ if you want to name it – your call.) I would like my last day to be Y, so let’s discuss things we can do to smoothly transition my departure between now and then.”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        That is what I write. Sometimes I have added, thank you for the opportunities here.

        I like a typed note because I can hand it to them and tell them what it is at the same time. It seems to help steer the conversation some how.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      I don’t know if this will help, but assuming you don’t have the kind of boss where you need to make an appointment in advance, as soon as you say, “Do you have a minute?” and shut the door, your boss will know, so the words you say next aren’t that important. But probably something like, “I wanted to let you know I’ve gotten a position at XYZ, so I’m giving my notice.”

  134. Aardvark*

    I recently gained a colleague (to my awesome team), and I’m having a hard time figuring out how we can work together productively.

    For example:
    He had emailed the team about a new spout design. I understood it. Explained the spout design to my boss because he didn’t get it. It seems like a good idea. We had a meeting about new spout designs today. My boss brings up dribble reducers in conjunction with the spout design, I start to explain why we would have to be careful combining the dribble reducers and the spout, and the guy re-explains the spout designs like I’m an idiot.
    So I stop him, say, “Yes, this is putting the spout at a 45 degree angle to optimize pouring”.
    He interrupts me to say “Yes, this is what a 45 degree angle is.”
    I reply, “Yes, I get it, we’re putting it at a 45 degree angle for , this is my concern about dribblers”
    so then he says “well, this is what an angle is”
    And I finally just have to say “I understand. is exactly what I just said, three times!”
    And he still didn’t really get that I already know what he’s trying to implement, I just started talking over him until my point was made and someone changed the subject.

    This is not the first time I’ve had the same type of interaction with him.
    Everyone else loves this guy. He seems to be good at his job so far, too, I have no objections there.

    I’m really hoping that this blows over and isn’t a pattern; constant self-advocacy to not be treated like an idiot in the workplace is exhausting. (For reference, I am the only woman on the team, but I’m to assume positive intentions/getting-to-know-you issues until proven otherwise.)

    Anyone had a positive outcome from a similar situation? I’d love to get some better suggestions than “talk over someone until they stop talking” because it’s kind of a rude solution.

    1. Natalie B.*

      I had a new boss once that came in and totally steamrolled everyone and everything and acted like everyone else was an idiot. I had a sit-down with him and said “When you do ___, it wastes time/undermines me/frustrates me/whatever. I’ve been doing this for X years now, I understand my job function and pretty much all of the aspects of the job. You don’t need to explain everything to me. If I have questions about anything, you can trust me to ask them.” He said he understood, and he improved…still had slip-ups sometimes, but they were few and far and farther between. Now, 2 years out of that job, he still calls me when he has questions about things :)

      1. Natalie B.*

        Sorry…the point of this was that he didn’t realize what he was doing. He was meaning to be helpful and just totally didn’t pick up on the cues that he was annoying. So maybe explaining to this guy that you won’t be shy with any questions would be beneficial. I was also the only female in a whole section of men, but my boss treated everyone like an idiot, not just me.

        1. Aardvark*

          Thanks! That is helpful advice. He probably has no idea he’s doing it. And who knows–maybe he does it to other people and they don’t notice it as much. :)

    2. Mints*

      I’ve had this turn out well exactly once. The coworker in question was somebody who I generally liked, and we had really different areas of expertise so most of the time when he said “I think this idea is the best” I deferred and vice versa.
      Occasionally we were talking about something that we both had input on and he sort of would repeat what I had said in a “I have a great idea” way. My attitude with him was friendly so I would cheerfully say “I just said that” until he acknowledged me. Sometimes it’d take like 5 tries “That’s what I said” “Literally 30 seconds ago” “Ron, I just explained it to you” but I was laughing about it. Sometimes I had to get pretty interrupty “No, stop, let me finish”
      I think what helped was we both recoginzed each other as smart, and when he had other thoughts I’d just listen or chime in with quick “That’s good” so it wasn’t a “Mints always talks over me” “Mints never shuts up about this thing” (which never actually happened but is something I’m aware of avoiding).

      Also something I have mixed feelings about but want to add anyway is explaining this whole thing to your most feminist male coworker and occasionally having him help police it. Like it sucks that hearing it from men can be so helpful but it depends on how bad it gets and how you want to resolve it.

      1. Aardvark*

        I’m going to keep that in mind once we know each other better! And if it keeps up, I think our mutual boss will help back me up (he’s not an overt feminist, but he does know and respect me a lot.)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If you can use humor and assume it is new job jitters maybe you can say something like,
      “Boss, calm down. It’s okay.”
      “Boss, I know. That is what you pay me for.”
      “Boss, you are repeating yourself.”

      Again it depends on the boss and it kind of depends on your comfort zone.

  135. Venting*

    It’s totally fine to go out to lunch with your coworkers, and it’s totally fine if your group/team/office/whatever is too big to include everyone. but for the love of whatever, don’t use in-front-of-someone-who-wasn’t-invited’s desk as your meeting spot to make plans!

    1. Natalie B.*

      I’ve had this happen to me. I finally asked what time they were leaving and said I’d come back to my desk then so I could concentrate. Hopefully they’re just being oblivious and not outright rude, but neither option is excusable.

  136. Zooey2k11*

    So I’m having a very interesting Friday. Last night, my company had its holiday party. I’m new to the team, we’re a small tech start up with about 12 full time office employees. Most of us of in our mid to late 20s, my manager is in his 40s. People really like to socialize and last night we did a team trivia activity and then went out to a bar. When I came into the office this morning, people were unsurprisingly hung over but everyone was in except for my boss. Then my colleague told me that when everyone went their separate ways (I left fairly early because it was a work night and I was exhausted from the day), my boss was very, very drunk and so my colleague attempted to help him home. They were riding the subway together and my colleague was trying to get his address or neighborhood from him but he wouldn’t speak. Finally, boss gestured to a stop and my colleague got off the train, thinking my boss would follow but he turned around just in time to see the doors close, boss still on the train. Since then, boss hasn’t been in touch and none of us are quite sure what to do.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Who does your boss report to? Contact her and ask if she’s heard from him. I agree with you, this is definitely worrisome!

    2. SophieChotek*

      Oh…dear…
      Maybe just hung over at home.
      Do police pick up on public transport and put them in jail? Or get them home? or to the hospital?

    3. Emi.*

      Could you contact the subway? If he stayed on the car, it’s possible no one knew he was there and he could still be sitting in a train, asleep and/or hypothermic (I hope you’re somewhere warm!). My dad once fell asleep in the commuter rail and woke up when it was in the train garage.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I am completely unable to stay awake on the subway (it lulls me to sleep). More than once, I have woken up at the depot or at the Coney Island stop when I meant to be somewhere around 34th St. in Manhattan.

        1. JaneB*

          So did he turn up?

          My sisters former partner was an expert at this sort of thing – he was in banking which has a fairly hard drinking culture and would frequently get on the train (with or without assistance) and zone out, then end up at the end of the line or getting off at any station which began with an S, assuming it was the one he needed… she got a few wee hours phone calls from unexpected places…

  137. Orangello*

    A coworker made a big deal the ohter day about my birthday coming up. She stated that her department wanted to do something extra special for me because of all the great things I had done for them.

    Well, my birthday was yesterday and literally nothing. In fact the department leader over there was actually pretty brusque/rude to me all day. I am trying not to be hurt, but the fact is if they just said nothing it wouldn’t have bothered me.

  138. Grumpy Icicle*

    Sitting at work in a down coat and wearing one glove, because the mouse only works bare-handed. Also wearing two pairs of socks, so my boots are uncomfortably tight. Tired of being told “tough beans” by the facilities department. FIX THE THERMOSTAT.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I would be a “grumpy icicle” too!
      If everyone else is cold…that’s ridiculous!
      Any chance you can work from home due to conditions? (reminds me of the post about the construction going on)…

    3. not so super-visor*

      OSHA makes a recommendation that the inside temperature be between 68-76 degrees. If it’s not at that setting, I would recommend talking to your HR (if you have one) or even looping in your maintenance dept to that recommendation.
      Also, is everyone else in the office cold or just you? If everyone is cold, try banding together to speak to a manager or maintenance. Sometimes it makes a difference if they can see how many people the issue is impacting.

  139. Huh*

    Vent.

    I recently interviewed an applicant who was clearly uninterested in the job. She didn’t even look at our company website before she came to meet me. Her answers were so apathetic I asked her why she wished to apply for this job. She said she needed a company to sponsor her visa and nobody responded to her other job applications. She was supposed to get back to me about some other information after the interview but never bothered.

    Today I received an application from another candidate. After a lengthy phone conversation I suggested an interview time for the next morning. He said he couldn’t make it because he had another interview at 12:30pm half hour away. I explained the interview will be over by 11am so he would have more than enough time to get to his next location. He ummed and ahhed and said he had to think about whether he would attend. After some polite probing he said this job was unrelated to his diploma and therefore unlikely to lead to a work visa renewal the following year; plus he was actually much more interested in this other job he’s interviewing for. If it’s not even worth your time to attend an interview for this job, why bother applying?

    Or, if you’re committed enough to attend an interview – don’t make it so obvious this role is a last resort. It feels as good as a first date who’s there because nothing good is on TV. I have experienced losing great applicants because they compared and accepted another offer that suited them better – disappointing, but I completely understand. It’s different interviewing a candidate who clearly signals they are uninterested – it’s an annoying waste of time for both of us.

    I mostly recruit entry level roles so I get hundreds of applications from graduates or overqualified migrants with limited job options. I’m not expecting anyone to burst in exclaiming “I can’t WAIT to sell teapot lids – this has been my biggest passion since my first cup of tea!” However, I expect more than “I care so little for this job I’m not even going to pretend I care.” This attitude betrays a serious lack of professionalism and makes you unsuitable for any position requiring good communication skills and diplomacy.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      It’s amazing how people shoot themselves in the foot like that! You dodged a couple of bullets for sure.

    2. SophieChotek*

      i agree with your last paragraph. But glad you dodged those bullets and best with finding and filling those roles.

    3. Gene*

      We had an applicant for Engineering Technician who was working as an Engineering Lecturer at UC Berkeley – complete with PhD and evidently on the tenure track – say, “I only applied because I need to move here because my parents are getting old and I need to be near them.” Even if he hadn’t completely blown the field safety question, he wouldn’t have been hired.

      1. Temperance*

        That’s probably the most depressing thing I’ve ever heard. I can’t imagine giving up such a great career.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I suppose it is possible that she only showed up for the interview so that she could claim that applied for X number of positions in order to claim unemployment? I just don’t know.

      1. Huh*

        I’m not in the US. She definitely didn’t apply for that reason. I think she was frustrated by her lack of job search success and maybe she felt like she could consider this as a last resort option. The problem is she made it blatantly obvious she didn’t want this job, and felt this was beneath her. She actually applied for another position earlier for which she was completely underqualified and inexperienced. So I suspect she has been applying for roles that are completely out of reality.

  140. Bonnie Last*

    Maybe a relationship question, but work-related too.

    My significant other has been a high school teacher his whole life. His parents are retired public school teachers. Most of his friends are teachers. He exists in an academic bubble and has no concept of how business works.

    My job does not do telecommuting, and the past few years we have had unusually harsh winters. Every bout of snow, ice storms, or freezing rain starts a fresh household argument. He rails about how can I not have a snow day, how can I be expected to drive in this mess, it isn’t safe, it isn’t fair, and blah blah blah. The conversation never goes anywhere, and it’s exhausting.

    Has anyone ever had a successful come-to-Jesus conversation with someone who’s so clueless about the “real world”?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      It might be helpful to point out to your SO that snow days are typically called due to buses not being able to pick up students. It’s not always because the weather is just too severe, especially if you live in a place where snow happens every year.

      But it’s probably a lost cause. He needs to stop giving you crap about having to work. Weather happens. Get over it.

    2. Natalie B.*

      Personally, I’d say something like “Do you really think I enjoy driving in these conditions? Do you think I would choose to go in to work if staying home was an option? Unfortunately, if I don’t go to work, I don’t get paid and/or I may not even have a job to return to. So what’s your plan to make up the loss of income if I no longer work?”

    3. Bianca*

      Does he know how much the entire conversation annoys you?

      I mean, I agree–I think that unless you do life-saving, urgent work that needs to happen in an emergency (doctor, firefighter, snow-plow operator!), it is unreasonable to ask people to risk their lives in bad weather. But some people are not in a position to have the luxury of only traveling when it is safe to do so, and I assume you also would prefer not to.

      What if you framed it as “SO, I know how you feel about my having to drive in to work when it is snowing, and I don’t like it either, but it is not something I can change right now, and when you bring this up each and every snow day you have, I find it really stressful and annoying, and it makes a stressful and annoying day even worse for me. Can you agree to not bring it up when I have to go into work during bad weather? Thanks.”

    4. Emi.*

      Could you say, “Yes, it’s such a bummer, I also wish I didn’t have to drive in this mess, now can we stop talking about it because it’s depressing?” It sounds like you’ve been arguing with him that it is a good idea for you to be driving in the slush, and that’s apparently ineffective, so would this work to end the conversation without addressing the question of whether you should get a snow day. (Also, it might be coming off as dismissive or condescending, especially since you described him as “clueless about the ‘real world.'”)

        1. Emi.*

          Oh, I just meant “Here’s something that may be contributing to these recurring arguments; if so, could changing that help?” Sorry if that wasn’t clear!

    5. Ruffingit*

      My ex-husband was like this so I feel your pain. He dropped out of college two years into it, immediately went to work at a company where his dad was a manager, then followed his dad to another company. He got laid off from that company and a week later had another job at a company where his best friend is a manager and got him in. He literally never had to do a resume in his life or actively job search. Dad or his friend always helped him.

      So, when I was unemployed for a long stretch, he just didn’t understand why I was having such a hard time getting a job (this was during the recession too). One day I just told him that I didn’t have a father or best friend who could get me a job so…

      That shut him up for awhile. But really, it’s just hard to explain what life is like in the world outside the protected bubble some people exist in. You have my sympathy.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        My mother is like this, except she never handed anything to her. She’s just been lucky. When my husband was out of work (and applying for ANY job just to have an income), she couldn’t understand it. “I’ve gotten every job I’ve ever applied for.” Well, GREAT for you. She HAS gotten every job she’s every applied for, but 1) She has worked at her current employer since 1996. That means she hasn’t had to apply for a job recently, so she missed the whole “Great Recession,” and 2) She has not applied for jobs that are likely to get hundreds of applicants. Her first couple of jobs were personal care/nursing assistant jobs that typically have high turnover and don’t have a lot of people clamoring to do them. Totally different from applying to a position such as marketing associate or something that is likely to attract a lot of applicants.

  141. c in seattle*

    What do you guys think about employees smoking in the parking garage when it’s raining? It’s not an enclosed garage it’s covered but sides are open if that makes sense. I’m pretty sure it’s not technically allowed. I hate to be that annoying coworker but smoke really bothers me and I have to go down there frequently.

    1. LCL*

      The law says they have to be 25 feet from a doorway. Are they? It sounds like a good choice for an outdoor smoking area, though.

      1. c in seattle*

        No they’re definitely not, it’s a pretty small garage-only like 10 spots. There is a designated smoking spot in the back parking lot, so they go to the garage when it’s raining, which is a lot.

    3. Joanna*

      I don’t think it’s okay. People need to come and go from their cars and should be able to do so without being subjected to toxic smoke

  142. H.C.*

    Well, just paid my own holiday/end-of-year bonus. (Our benefits lets us “buy” extra PTO on top of the 10-12 days we get each year w payroll deductions, any unused extra days get cashed out at the end of the year.)

    I thought it was a weird system at first, but now I don’t mind the extra money given all the extra spending come holiday-time.

    1. SophieChotek*

      How do you “buy” PTO? (It costs less than what you would actually lose if you had to take an unpaid work day?) Sounds different…but good!

      1. H.C.*

        Technically, the value of bought PTO is supposed to be same as unpaid time off

        However, in reality there is a slight benefit since our fiscal year (and any merit/cost-of-living raises) begins in July 1, everything cashed out on December will be based on the higher salary/wage, despite lower contributions from Jan to June.

  143. Anon for This*

    Half venting/half open to advice – what to do when your boss puts you on a pedestal? My coworkers are (unfairly, I think) compared to me on a regular basis and told to be more like me, which causes tension. We have different and highly complementary skill sets, my boss just seems to see more surface level value to my skill set and holds other people to my “standard” for certain things.

    And then it bites me during weeks (like admittedly this week) when I make small mistakes – as I think we all do – and get a disproportionate amount of hemming and hawwing and disappointment thrown back at me. The tension with my coworkers is only eased because they see how much flack I get.

    Anyone know where I’m coming from?

    1. Orangello*

      YESSS!!!!

      No advice, but it sucks.

      I’ve even heard in performance reviews “You are so good at everything else. Why is this hard for you?”

      Ummm, maybe help me get better instead of expressing disappointment that I don’t naturally jump to the top 10% in this one area like I do every other area?

    2. Huh*

      My managers at my last job had no management skills. They put me on a pedestal because I guess I had similar work styles to them and the approved. When I made a big mistake they glossed over it, if someone else made a much more trivial “error” (like hanging a coat on their seat instead of the designated coat area) it would lead to shaming and sometimes firing.

      While this did not affect my own work or opportunities, I decided to resign within 6 months. It made me feel so uncomfortable seeing my colleagues treated unfairly. Their criteria for good vs bad employee seemed so nonsensical I wondered when I would be relegated to bad employee without warning or reason. Most importantly I saw they were terrible managers and I did not want to work at a toxic work environment where I did not respect the leaders.

    3. sometimeswhy*

      When former boss did it, I spent a lot of time talking up other employees. Every time he brought up how rainbows poured from my tea pots, especially in front of others, I pointed out that Fergus brought the red and orange and that Lucinda provided the hot water and Milton brought the pot of gold and that there was NO WAY that I could’ve done it on my own.

      AND I pointed out my own mistakes and took full, enthusiastic responsibility for them. “OH BOY did I screw THAT up. Here’s my plan for fixing it. Here’s my plan for making sure it didn’t happen again but did I mention how I SCREWED THAT UP?”

      AND, because we had a good working relationship, I had a quiet word with my grandboss about it to ensure that if anything was filtering into my colleagues’ annual reviews that he’d be able to keep an eye out for it and push back.

  144. Jillociraptor*

    Is it okay to invite coworkers to a fundraiser for an organization whose board I sit on?

    I’m planning to host a bar night at a local place — board members volunteer to be the bartender and all the tips go to the organization. We’d also have opportunities to make bigger donations, probably some raffle prizes, and a few people giving a spiel about how great the organization is. The org would like better connections with people who work in my field so there would probably be some good schmoozing, but the point of these activities is for people to have low-lift, low-pressure ways to engage so all board members are totally aligned that there would be no pressure to donate.

    Would it be appropriate to invite colleagues? Any suggestions for doing so in a way that makes it clear that they won’t be pressured into anything?

    1. Mints*

      I think it’s okay, and vote for a mass email with a blurb / invite and lots of “no pressure” wording

  145. Kevin*

    Please share a story of when you thought you were muted on a call – and you weren’t.

    In my case, my mute malfunctioned and all 200 people on the call could hear me say god knows what. Oh, and the application showed my full name as the speaker, to the point the speaker said, “Hey Kevin, I’m going to mute your line.” The kicker? The call was recorded and saved for future reference.

    Anyone else experience a muting malfunction? Please share so I’m not alone in my embarrassment.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I thought I was muted. A coworker came up to me and asked what I was doing.

      I responded “ugh dealing with this pointless meeting I don’t need or want to be in. It’ll probably last until I’m dead”

      oops

      1. Kevin*

        Anyone say anything to you after that call? Or did you pretend it never happened? (Which is what I’m doing)

    2. Temperance*

      Uh yes. I was once on a training call with our New York office, and was eating a salad. I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MUTED.

      Well … one of the trainers made a comment about someone “moving papers” and asked us all to mute, but the line was supposed to be auto muted! I have been terrified to eat in meetings since that time.

    3. Cath in Canada*

      My cat started purring very loudly into the phone (I take my 5:30 and 6 am calls from my sofa). I didn’t realise I wasn’t muted until someone asked if anyone else could hear a weird mechanical interference on the line. I said “I can’t hear anything” while pushing the cat off the table. I now call her The Cat Whose Purr Was Heard Around The World.

      (this was one of my first calls with this group. Now that I know them better I’d just admit to it being my cat!)

      2. The Other Dawn*

        LOL that happened to me once, too, while I was working from home and had to call one of our vendors for something. They got a good laugh out of it, as they work from home also.

    4. T3k*

      Oh god, this is going to make me paranoid about muting things now! Must find a way to test it’s working from now on, perhaps bang the phone on the desk? :p

    5. Jillociraptor*

      Uh…I once accidentally started surfing AAM while I (forgot that I) was sharing my screen for a presentation! At least I didn’t start commenting about my boring conference call or persnickety boss? Happens to the best of us, Kevin!

      1. Cath in Canada*

        I have one collaborator who’s become a friend. She’s prone to sending me emails with titles like “DUDE did you see the Westworld Finale OMFG”, which is usually awesome, and I often reciprocate. If I’m heading into a meeting where I’ll be sharing my screen (which often involves going into my email to open up files that people send me during the meeting), I always send her a quick text saying “please only send work-appropriate emails for the next hour”. She once sent one titled “Reasons Cath is super awesome and professional” on purpose during a screen-sharing session, which I thought was hilarious! (She knows the people I work with and knew that this would be appreciated)

    7. paul*

      I had a guy (that no one knew who the hell he was-wound up calling the cops when he refused to leave the premises) barge into my office and start swearing up a storm while I was a non-muted conference call. that was fun. and by fun I mean cringe-inducing

    8. Aardvark*

      I once was on a meeting from home, helping train a couple new team members, and my dog did something he wasn’t supposed to do. I turned around to scold him, and said something like “We do not do that” in a really firm tone of voice. I realized I wasn’t muted when everyone suddenly got very, very, quiet. Luckily, several of them had dogs and they understood!
      I also once took a meeting from the couch when I was home sick right after Amazon released the Echo, and was using an example contact record whose name was very similar to Alexa. It kept trying to join in the conversation. That was fun to try to explain, while sick, to people who had not yet heard of the technology…

    9. animaniactoo*

      Not by me, but there for – The several times that somebody has put the call on hold only to have their company’s hold music begin to play LOUDLY over the presenter (in one case, the presenter didn’t know where the controls to mute lines were and just kept trying to talk over the music… it was a disaster).

    10. A*

      I know this isn’t related exactly to voice muting, but… once I was on a work video call at home when my dog tried to jump up on my roommates brand new sofa (he’s usually pretty well trained about not going on furniture, so this was a surprise). I knew I wasn’t muted so I didn’t yell, but I frantically waved my arms and jumped up, while still holding my laptop, and ran over to pull the dog down from the sofa. The laptop of course crashed to the floor and my dog basically landed on it. Everyone had a good laugh.

    11. The Other Dawn*

      I was on a webinar/conference call and thought I had muted the line. Nope. I started to talk to the others that were watching/listening with me that I hated this webinar because it was awful and so boring and I could be doing other things. She then stopped her lesson and said that “whoever said that, we can all hear you and might want to mute your line by pressing *6.” And she didn’t sound all that pleasant about it either. I cringe when I think about that, even though it was like 10 years ago.

    12. Short geologist*

      Ooh, I have a whole office one. I worked with a bunch of snarky SOBs. We had a regular call-in all company update (probably quarterly) that was all “rah rah”, even though we weren’t doing all that well. The office manager and lead supervisors kept up a non stop sarcastic commentary for a few minutes until some REALLY high level person broke in to announce that he could hear the “unproductive chatter”. The office manager turned bright red, hit the mute button, and none of us said a thing for the rest of the call. Not long afterward, a bunch of those managers got canned in a reorganization.

    13. Chaordic One*

      We used to have a combination closed circuit tv/conference call system. I recall one time when every comment made by the speaker was answered with a sarcastic comment from someone who didn’t know that they were not on mute.

      Speaker: “With this new initiative we should be able to increase our effectiveness by at least 50%.”

      Unaware Unmuted Person: “What a load of B.S. this is!”

      Another time I set a meeting and the person from our office didn’t know about the camera and was embarrassed because, not knowing or forgetting about the camera, she inadvertently was scratching herself in an unphotogenic and unflattering manner.

      Finally, there was a unmuted man everyone heard during a conference call who, um, was a bit “gassy.”

    14. Marvel*

      I once came into the room having a full-out, sobbing-uncontrollably mental breakdown while my partner was supposedly on mute for a conference call. Turns out, not so much–they heard everything. I was absolutely mortified.

    15. Menacia*

      During a virtual training someone kept leaving their mic on so we heard various sounds, the best of which was a loud belch (this was after lunch)…the instructor called him out on it though, “Mike, please mute your mic”. It was funny and gross at the same time!

    16. the gold digger*

      My team gives quarterly skype presentations to management. We record the presentations and they are available to hundreds of people.

      In the recording this week, my boss, who is in charge of recording the meeting, had the large microphone muted in our conference room while the presenter (in another city) was talking. But my boss was giving some commentary, including, “Can you BELIEVE this?”

      It wasn’t until he reviewed the two-hour recording that he discovered that he had not muted the microphone doing the recording (who knew they were separate?) and all of his comments were audible.

      Oops.

  146. peachie*

    Any tips on being not-annoying when following up on a promised but not schedule phone interview? I think it’s been enough time that I actually need to reach out.

  147. Almost*

    Not a muting malfunction, but I dialed 911 while trying to make an international call. The fine was taken out of my paycheck. Having to press 9 for an outside line is stupid–there are several other numbers one could assign for that purpose.

  148. Ruffingit*

    I really hate it when my boss is gone for a couple of days and I have to deal with her backup who is a total micromanager. ARGH! Makes me love my boss all the more though. Whenever she returns, all her direct reports are like “Never again! You cannot leave. Ever.” LOL!

  149. burnout*

    Had 2 interviews this week. First time I have had to interview officially in…. 15 years? I’ve been blessed to flow into jobs, businesses owned by people I know, that sort of thing. But I’m legit looking now and wow. It is not easy. First interview this week was ridiculous, or at least I thought so. I was interviewed by a panel of 3 who took turns asking questions they could have printed off Buzzfeed’s “Top 10 Questions to ask in a Job Interview.” What is your biggest weakness? They seriously asked that. Ugh. I did not get the job and I’m glad after that interview.

    Next was a GREAT interview for a county gov’t position. It went super and I really liked the supervisor and HR. They even took me around and introduced me to other key employees. I was hopeful. But I didn’t get it. They hired someone with county government experience. Bummer. But that’s ok…. it just wasn’t meant to be.

    I’m still in the running for a payroll position, hoping for an interview after the holidays (its in the public schools system, they are taking winter break starting Monday).

    1. Jean*

      Welcome to the wild and crazy world of the Modern Job Search. You’re absolutely right that it is not easy–but as a seasoned resident of this landscape I can say that you will learn new skills and build new muscles in your character. You’ll also learn a lot from reading AAM. Hang in there and also (privately) cultivate a sense of humor.

  150. Anonymous for this*

    So I recently got a new position, but I am still at my old gig until the end of the year and I start the new job in January. I was (kindly) invited to the holiday party at the new job and it’s literally in an hour. I am one of those people who appears extroverted and social, but is actually super introverted with social anxiety. I like to say I play an extrovert on tv. I don’t even like answering the door for takeout because I get very anxious. My husband does all of that type of thing and any cold calls we need to make. I am good at “faking” small talk and people really do think I’m friendly and charming, etc. It just takes a ton of effort for me to act that way.

    Long short short. I have literally had two panic attacks today about this holiday party! I have no reason to suspect anyone will be anything but nice. It is an employee only party and I only know the people I interviewed with, including the bigger bosses. The thought of all the small talk and potentially being the odd one out is making me literally gag with panic.

    Can anyone give me some advice to calm down? My husband said “just relax and try to have fun,” but that is near impossible for me right now. I literally had to unzip the back of my dress so that it didn’t feel like the neck was closing in on me.

      1. adminrat*

        I would say just don’t go. You don’t know anyone and it sounds like it would be uncomfortable. Tell them you really appreciate the invite but have a prior commitment/something came up/etc.

        It sounds really strange to attend a party before starting the job. Work parties are awkward enough.

        1. Anonymous for this*

          I can’t because I already told the biggest big boss, who personally invited me, that I was going. I didn’t really feel like it was something I could say no to without making a bad impression.

            1. Anonymous for this*

              Unfortunately, it was employees only! I wish. He is my shield too! It actually was better than I thought it would be. A little liquid courage probably helped, but I actually talked to people! I also didn’t gag and throw up, which was my biggest concern given how I felt earlier in the day. I think I actually had a nice time…who would have thought?!

    2. Leatherwings*

      Ugh, no advice, just commiseration. I think I’m actually you. I also have my office holiday party like now, I’m new and I also make my SO do cold calls, answer the door etc.

      I’m getting flushed and have a tough time breathing, though no panic attack yet. Godspeed (not in a religious way, just a commiseration way).

      1. Anonymous for this*

        I’ll take both! I’ve yet to meet someone else like me so at least there’s two of us!!! Let’s make a pact to just smile and get through it and try not to think about panicking. I feel like when I think about the panic, I panic more. Good luck and godspeed to you too!

    3. H.C.*

      Given the seemingly extroverted nature of your new colleagues, I’d mentally prepare a few questions that let them talk about themselves, like asking them about their job roles, what are their current projects, how long they have been at NewCompany, what are their hobbies when not working, etc.

      1. H.C.*

        also, mentally prepare yourself for any small talk questions you’ll be asked, like where did you come from (professionally & possibly personally), your hobbies and what made you choose NewCompany.

        1. Anonymous for this*

          Thank you! I really appreciate this. I just got home and the party actually went better than I thought. There were a couple of moments where I was like, “I’m standing here by myself and I feel so uncomfortable.” But a lot of people took initiative to introduce themselves to me or introduce me to other people, so there were fewer moments of total discomfort that I anticipated. I think the fear was the hardest thing, but once I got there (and had a glass of wine), it went okay. My biggest concern was that I would actually have a panic attack there (or that I would gag and throw up based on my anxiety and previous episodes in the day) and I’m very VERY glad to say that didn’t happen!

  151. animaniactoo*

    We’re having our “Kris Kringle” party in about 20 minutes. I am genuinely looking forward to it and now genuinely cringing as the history has generally been “try to bring something you would be happy to get” and my co-worker just told me that somebody is going to be upset to get his present.

    I… kind of want to say something to him and at the same time, no no no no. I am already semi-responsible for helping catch his work mistakes and point him in the right direction. This one is not my circus, not my monkeys. Let him go down in a blaze of glory. At least I know to bring popcorn? It’s always a good idea for this in any case…

    *crossing fingers that I don’t get his gift*

    1. not so super-visor*

      I went to one last year where someone had wrapped a Big Mac with a bite taken out of it. The recipient was super angry. When she went to throw it out (and make a big deal of throwing it out), a $20 fell out from under the burger.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Oh yay. I got the totally totally inappropriate gift. Not sure if it was his, but while the sex dice could be a little spicy fun and interesting, the attached fetish ball gag took it a step too far….

    1. Mimmy*

      Very interesting article, thanks for sharing Cath! I liked what you said about catching typos. I’m a volunteer grant reviewer with a couple of committees and I’m always catching typos (though they’re not supposed to have any bearing on the score).

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Yeah, a lot of people think this kind of thing doesn’t matter, but I know a lot of reviewers will see a sloppy application with typos and inconsistent formatting and wonder if you take a similarly “rigorous” approach to your data analysis!

        Glad you enjoyed the article :)

        1. Mimmy*

          Oh I didn’t even think about comparing it to rigorousness with data analysis. The grants I read are for nonprofit human service programs (daycare programs, case management for low income families, domestic violence shelters, etc), so it’s not the same thing as your field, but a proposal riddled with typos and grammatical errors (thankfully I have not come across any!) would still give me pause.

  153. LivingInCrazyTown*

    Latest updates from CrazyTown and the Cartoon Villain:

    A suspiciously quiet week on the Cartoon Villain front, at least overtly… however there was a mysterious leak to the press, and Cartoon Villain has long been suspected of being a chronic leaker (usually under the names of former employees she’s trying to get in trouble).

    Meanwhile, the rest of the company appears determined to get itself sued, judging from the ridiculously large sex toy that appeared in our White Elephant exchange. (It really was hilarious, though, especially when someone managed to get it to stick to the ceiling. The juvenile humor around here actually suits me fine, but it worries me knowing that we have a malicious Cartoon Villain likely collecting documentation on every one of these incidents for a lawsuit if she’s ever fired for her Cartoon Villain Behavior, which seems unlikely.)

  154. Apx*

    Just got news that I’m getting a really nice raise! My negotiations for the overtime laws held even though the law’s on hold.

    I’m very excited!

  155. NW Mossy*

    I’m sighing inwardly today as I’m trying to come up with the right way to coach one of my reports on the difference between guidelines and rules. Lucinda’s point of view is that they’re the same, and it’s interfering with the team’s ability to get stuff done and function harmoniously. Recently, it flared up again as she called out three different teammates on a situation where they did nothing wrong – they simply exercised the discretion I’d reasonably expect from seasoned professionals and said, “Hey, guidelines say we’d normally do X here, but let’s do Y because Reasons.” Lucinda, on the other hand, is quite peeved that we didn’t do X here because we did X in a mostly-similar situation three months ago – it’s almost as if her internal operating system crashes if we don’t do things the same way every single time.

    It’s easy for me to say “Lucinda, this is a guideline because while X is appropriate the majority of the time, it’s not a rule because we know that sometimes Y is the right call,” but fundamentally, she struggles with making judgment calls. I believe she can do it (and have seen specific instances where she has done it well) and have walked her through how I do it many times, but she seems to be looking for a script to follow that covers every scenario and that just plain isn’t going to happen in our line of work. I feel like this should be a teachable skill, but it’s hard for me to come up with a lesson plan because judgment calls come pretty naturally to me. Anyone had any success learning this, or teaching it to someone else?

    And literally as I’m writing this comment, she’s blasting her teammates again on an extension of the original question. Gah!

    1. Temperance*

      I think the bigger problem than her lack of judgment is the fact that she feels the need to attack her coworkers when they aren’t so rigid. Is she their supervisor, or just a busybody?

      I worked with a woman, Julie (her real name, she doesn’t get anonymity!) who was a nightmare. She was our receptionist. Her first week, she demanded to know EXACTLY what time mail was delivered, or EXACTLY when packages went out, and if we veered from that schedule for any reason, she let her rage out. She was awful. She was a large part of the reason that I accepted a transfer as soon as it was offered.

      If she can’t handle when other people make choices that she disagrees with, this may not be the job for her.

      1. NW Mossy*

        That’s certainly an issue (and one that I’m coaching her on separately, with fits-and-starts improvement), but even in situations where she handles herself professionally, judgment is still a problem. It bleeds over into prioritization especially, as she has a tough time taking multiple factors into account there too. I’d like to give her a chance to improve in this area with some help, but I’m fresh out of ideas on how to do that.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s one thing to decide that you’ll invest in some intensive coaching on judgment. But if she needs that and can’t consistently stop berating her coworkers, even when you’ve directly told her to stop, I’d think about whether she’s the right person for the job or not.

    2. Joanna*

      This is not ideal because you can never cover absolutely everything, but something that helps in our office is having a list of semi-common situations where it is permissible to deviate from the standard procedures if you have assessed that it would benefit the customer and be of low risk to the company. Some of these come with boundaries eg You may waive usual requirement A if the claim is under value B, there is no known major risk to the company and the customer will provide indemnity form C.

      We’ve also had a little bit if training from senior staff where they walk people through how they make their judgement calls on particular complex or non-standard cases.

    3. designbot*

      The combo of rigid thinking and resentment at her coworkers exercising their judgement rings some bells for me regarding something I’ve struggled with before. I wonder whether she might (whether at your company or a previous job) have basically been taught that her judgement will always be Wrong, or that other people can get away with stuff but she has to follow the rules no matter what or she’ll get in trouble. If this is something that happened at the current company, then yeah it may just be that the well’s been poisoned and she’ll never see it any other way there. If that’s something she’s carrying with her from previous experience though, I do think there could be an opportunity to do a sort of reset on this issue and make it clear to her that using her own judgement is encouraged in situations like X and Y, both up front and situationally. If she comes to you with questions, don’t just answer them for her but rather turn them around and ask her what she thinks is best and help guide her to a good outcome to help develop her judgement in those situations. If this is the case then the lashing out at coworkers may just be a side effect of the jealousy that brews when it feels like you’re held to a different standard than others.

  156. Anxa*

    I mentioned last week some stress about taking a retail job. I ended up not taking it. I feel awful, though, because my boss took time to provide a reference and the place may have even spent money on my background check. Well actually I was about to call them back, they called me, and I started to explain my reservations and was quickly shuttled off the phone without having a chance to talk to the manager I had been dealing with.

    It would have been about a month between dropping off my application and starting my orientation, which to me sounds really long for a seasonal job. I was always worried that if they weren’t in such a hurry to start (took 10 days to let me know they couldn’t contact my reference) that they really didn’t have that urgent a need. Other glassdoor reviews noted weeks of being not put on the schedule (who knows if that was just an unpopular worker).

    I still can’t shake that I’m living up to the flaky college grad stereotype of someone ‘too good’ for retail. I had tried so hard over the years for an opportunity like this to come along, and I just walked away from it. In my gut I feel like I made the right choice, but I can’t get over the guilt of not taking it (and not being as quick to tell them as I tried to think it over). Anybody else decide to turn down (or at least, not seize) a job when they know they really needed one?

    1. Temperance*

      I really think that you’re overthinking this. Background checks etc. are part of the cost of doing business. If this is a chain store, they probably have an account or pay in bulk.

      It sounds like the job was a crap fit for you. Don’t feel guilty because you have an education and before you had one, you wanted a job like this. It’s fine to change your opinion!

      1. Anxa*

        You’re right that I’m overthinking it. My issue isn’t so much that retail in general is a bad fit. I am not sure how much leverage I can get from my degree at this point. But this particular job didn’t seem fit with my transportation access for this month. And that’s enough for it to not work out. At the time of my interview I really did have full availability. But I just wasn’t gonna have my whole family work to accommodate a job that I didn’t think really wanted me.

        1. Overeducated*

          So that’s ok. It’s not a referendum on who you are, whether you’re entitled, or anything like that. It was something you pursued until you found out it was a bad fit logistically.

  157. Anxa*

    I am considering starting a tutoring business. I’m new to this city. There are lots of things I need to work out to see if this worth pursuing, but I would like some advice on two issues:

    1) Am I gonna have to get a smartphone? I have flip-phone in part for financial reasons, but also because I used to be quite clumsy and forgetful and I don’t like having valuables on me a lot. I also like ‘shutting off’ of bit and if I had a computer in my pocket, I would always feel the pressure to be doing something productive. I have a laptop (old) and a tablet (pretty new) already, but I’m worried that it will just accentuate how not-that-young I am to clients, as well as be a too obvious class marker.

    2) Does anyone have any ideas for very cheap space rental? I don’t want to do it my apartment because I don’t live alone, my apartment is small, I don’t have a proper table, and it’s not allowed by my lease. I feel pretty comfortable that I can do a consultation at a library or coffee shop, but I don’t know where to go from there. I don’t feel right using another business’s space without making an arrangement, but I don’t have a lot of wiggle room in my tentative hourly rates to pay much. I want to come out with at least minimum wage after taxes, transport, etc. I’m hoping to do it in the client’s home, but feel like I should have an alternative. My local library charges $25 for a five hour chunk for meetings, so I could try to book back to back hours in a 5 hour window, and it’d be $5/hour which I think I could swing.

    1. KR*

      I think that a smart phone is not necessary for what you’re looking to do, but that it’s also not as big of a deal as you think. Also, if you’re going to do tutoring I think the calendar function will be helpful to you. I have my work calendar synced with my phone and I depend on it so much.

    2. Librarian too*

      Check your local library’s policies regarding tutoring. At our library, booking a private space costs, but sharing a space does not. People mostly tutor in our large meeting room, which has 16 tables often full of tutors or student groups working (we are across the street from a high school), but some will tutor in the stacks which we allow so long as they are not disturbing people who are nearly. First person to sit in an area kind of sets the rule as to whether there is talking allowed or not in that area.

      Our area Barnes & Noble used to allow tutoring, but they closed, alas.

    3. Temperance*

      I would recommend getting a smartphone if you’re going to start a tutoring business. Not because it is a class marker, or because it will show your age, but because it will make it far easier for you to run a business. If you’re working with college students or teens, they’re likely to be emailing you regularly. If you’re working with kids, their parents will also be reaching out.

      I regularly “shut off” even though I’m a smartphone user. I leave it in other rooms when I’m at home, and don’t check it unless I want to.

    4. SophieChotek*

      Coffee shops (like Starbucks) might be too loud, but I do see people meeting there for tutoring. When I worked at the local coffee shop I’ve seen several people meet their tutors there.

      Possibly a community center (?) might have spaces, or a lower year-long fee.

    5. Ultraviolet*

      No ideas on (2) unfortunately. As for the phone–are you anticipating that your clients would actually see your phone, or just that they would surmise you don’t have a smartphone if you don’t answer emails right away?

      If you don’t get a smart phone, how often would you be checking email during the day? Is carrying your tablet an option? Do you think there’s any reason you’d want to use a laptop or tablet during tutoring sessions anyway? (Maybe to do some calculations in Excel, or help a student find good resources for a paper, or something?)

      I have never been a tutor, let alone run a tutoring business, but my feeling is that not having email access during the day would be inconvenient.

      1. Anxa*

        I typically check my email about 10 times a day through my laptop. I guess I was worried in part about the logistics, but more that they would assume I would have one and then be weirded out that I didn’t.

        I text differently than other people do. I get pretty mad at my boyfriend all the time, bc he has a smartphone and has started texting like it’s an AIM convo. In small blurbs that I receive as single texts. Then I’ll start answering as 4 more texts come in while I’m trying to respond, so I have to abandon the messages and just wait.

        I email differently, because I read 90% of my email on a computer screen. I guess I really just don’t know how I’d adapt them, because I don’t understand what using a smartphone is like. Do people really get mad about having to scroll for an email? Or do they get used to it? Those little things.

        In the past I’ve never had an issue with being out of contact without a smart phone, but for the past 2 years I’ve had email access at work or have been home most of the day.

    6. Merit*

      My boyfriend tutors (through a company, not his own business) and he mostly meets clients at their homes.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      I’d say a smartphone is pretty necessary, not for coolness/youth, but for practicality – you’ll want clients to be able to contact you in a way that’s easy for them, and you’ll need to be able to quickly get messages about rescheduling and things like that. Smartphone use is so ubiquitous now that telling people you don’t have one so you can’t check messages easily will seem odd.

      If I were doing it, I’d set up an email address and a Line ID specifically for the tutoring, to make it easy to keep track of.

      1. Anxa*

        I can receive text messages easily, but I’m worried that people will want to use some sort of texting app or email instead of regular SMS.

        Do you think people would be too averse to calling? I’m a huge email over phone person, but to me the phone is best for thinks like last minute cancellations and all of that.

        I know that in the upper classes, smartphones are very very common, even among kids. I think last year some 75% of American households had a smartphone, and it’s probably only increased.

        1. Observer*

          SMS is way to limiting. Think about what you just described with your BF. He’s having a hard time texting in a way that’s appropriate to standard SMS, and you guys are in a relationship. Parents are going to be even more annoyed when they have to text in itty bitty snippets or jump through extra hoops if they need to send you something. So, yeah, they are going to want to use something like whatsapp or a similar messaging app that gives them the kind of flexibility they are used to.

          Also, the calendar integration can be HUGELY useful if you are going to be working away from your desk. As well, there are other apps that can make your life much easier, while freeing you from carrying your laptop when you don’t need to have it.

          1. Anxa*

            Hmm. I don’t see how SMS would be limiting to other parties, though. I would much, much rather deal with pausing to message clients than having to disrupt my life and get a smartphone (ugggh). But with my boyfriend it bothers me that he texts me the way he does because he’s a personal relationship. If anything it’s the fact that we’re in a relationship that makes it annoying.

            I just looked into Whatsapp. I hate how there’s so many different apps that do essentially the same things. I’m starting to think that maybe I should hold off on this until a smartphone is more appealing. Thanks for your input.

  158. KR*

    Next week is my last week at my job. I’m feeling bittersweet.
    Bitter because my current position is turning full time come March and pays extremely well.
    Sweet because I’m moving in with my husband finally and I’m so ready for something new. If I keep working here, sure I’ll make a lot of money but I will only ever be My Boss’s Assistant and I will still be dealing with the frustrating aspects of my job that will probably never change while I’m working under my boss. I need more experience in the world and it’s scary to leave this behind but I will survive.
    I’m nervous but I will survive.

  159. Principal of the Thing*

    At my (pretty small) preschool, our teachers and assistants often get quite generous gifts from families at the end of the year. A few of these (a box of cookies, some fancy tea and coffee, and a Christmas cake) were addressed to everybody and put out in the break room, but most were personally addressed to teaching staff. As the principal, I tend to get a few as well, but I certainly don’t expect it.

    That said, I realized yesterday that our school’s admin hasn’t received a single gift, and I’m worried that her feelings will be hurt. Should I regift a couple of my own presents, or give her one of the break room gifts so she doesn’t feel left out?

    1. Colette*

      Can you get her something yourself, possibly including a note explaining why you appreciate her? As far as regifting, I think it depends on whether she saw the gifts addressed to you. If you got them without her around, it’s fine, but if she saw them, it’ll feel like a pity present.

      1. Principal of the Thing*

        I’ve given all of my reports small gifts and cards already, it’s more about the fact that she’s seeing her colleagues walk out with between 3 and 6 lovely gifts every day (with another five working days to go) and it’s unlikely she’ll get anything. She does get a share in the break room treats, obviously, but there’s nothing specific just for her. These are gifts from children and families, so it’s not as though it’s anything large enough to need to be reported, and they’re personal gifts, not something like supplier gifts, either.

        On a related(ish) note, we have one colleague at work who has given quite outlandishly generous gifts to a very small few of his co-workers (one assistant in one room, one teacher in another, one assistant who works in his own) and not even a card to the others. We’re talking extravagant gifts here, averaging about $200 each. Obviously not something I can follow up as a manager, but it has provoked some resentment from the people not being singled out. (I did speak to him about presenting them more quietly next year rather than making an overt display, but the gifts themselves weren’t originally my issue)

        Does this strike anybody else as odd? $200 for a colleague???

        1. Colette*

          I don’t spend $200 on my family members, so that seems ridiculous to me (and I wonder whether it’s a statement to make people feel left out, or if it’s a bid to have people think better of him than they do).

          Since you’ve already gotten her a gift and she’s in a role where she won’t get gifts, I think it’s fine to offer her some of yours, but I wouldn’t pretend it’s a gift for her. So something more like “I can’t use this, would you be able to?” rather than “I got you another gift”.

        2. arjumand*

          I’m a teacher, though not in the USA. Middle School staffroom is about 60, mostly teachers and some TAs, besides that principal and vice-principals and some admin staff.

          The way we handle gifts at Christmas is that we contribute to a fund at the beginning of the school year, which is meant to cover presents for the principals and the admin staff, because teachers get gifts from their students. Teachers don’t buy gifts for each other, usually (though maybe those who are close friends will do so, but it’s not really done openly.

          I think it’s a good system to have – someone (a volunteer) collects at the beginning of the school year and uses it to buy gifts for those who don’t usually get anything. The money is also used for a small retirement gift, or if someone has a baby, etc. If the money runs out before the end of the year, we’ll collect again.

          Oh, and your last question – yes, $200 for a colleague is bizarre, in my view!

  160. Intrepid*

    In super late, but I haven’t had a chance to tell anyone yet: I just got a raise which Doubled. My. Pay.

    I’m moving from PT to FT, too, but even without that, it’s a ~70% increase. I’m now paid market rate for my work.

    I’m going to go have a beer.

  161. NewManager*

    I’m a new manager of a close-knit team. This year for the holidays I’m giving each person a small bag of chocolates as a gift. In the card, I’m struggling with how to sign my name! What is appropriately warm but professional? “Warm wishes, Name”or something similar seems stiff.

    1. Principal of the Thing*

      Warm wishes actually sounds really nice. I went with, “Kind Regards” myself and found that too stiff.

  162. Take Home Pay*

    I’m sure this has been asked before, but how much of your paycheck do you actually take home each pay period?

    I am married and have 0 allowances. I contribute 10% to my 403B (optional) and 7% to my pension (required). Minus healthcare, Medicare, SSI, state and federal taxes, my contributions, and a few extra things I take home 60% of my gross income. Is that pretty standard for others out there who are married, no kids?

    1. N.J.*

      I’m taking home about 65- 70% of take home-0 allowances as well, 401k contributions at 4% and insurance premium, along with a few additional small deductions for additional life insurance.

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      That’s about what it is for me. I took home 68% net in my last biweekly paycheck. All the things you mentioned, plus union dues, are taken out before direct deposit.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I suppose I probably really take home about 65% (our taxes are really high).
      In the end, though, none….(after I pay rent, student loans, etc.)

      1. anonasaurus*

        My take home is about 68% as well. Single, 1 deduction. 5% for retirement (pension), health insurance, union dues, short/long term disability and state/federal taxes.

  163. Get a Haircut*

    I got canned. Job was seasonal, I needed surgery. After surgery, had Drs note with medical restrictions (ie. don’t try to lift a house). Anyway, they said they couldn’t meet the medical restrictions, that I had no off-time entitled due to nature of position, so it was just going to be processed as a resignation. Everything said with kindness & all, but yeah… losing a job I took to make Xmas money right before Xmas is not great. Now I’m unemployed again and it sucks and I’m scared.

    1. Colette*

      That sucks.

      My advice:
      – figure out your finances – what can you cut back on? How long can you survive?
      – figure out what you can do and what you want to do
      – let people know you’re unemployed (they may hear something that will help)
      – take care of yourself

      I hope you find something great soon.

  164. Sparkly Librarian*

    I learned something interesting that has changed my perspective on a coworker. This person is part of the part-time staffing pool that circulates staff to my location, and every time I have worked with her I get so annoyed by her minimal efforts in customer service. Although I work full-time at this location, I have no standing to manage her behavior, or I would have brought it up and would probably be less annoyed. She did maybe 20% of the tasks a person is expected to do on desk duty here, and actually sat and read a book (more than once) while ignoring customers needing help within sight (unless they approached her and asked a direct question). When I took over after her shift, I would get to do any backed-up work she’d left undone. She holds a BEC spot with me 6 months after she was last scheduled here… and I usually don’t even have one of those going. However, other people have commented on how great she is with customers, and how extensively she works with them – I could hardly believe they were talking about the same person. So when I heard that she might be coming to our location for a spell (lots of staffing changes happening at the turn of the year), I asked the local long-timer what was up. He told me that 2 managers previously, there was one who really clamped down on this coworker and straight up told her not to spend so much time helping customers. To stay at the desk and only do what was required when directly asked (exactly the behavior that annoys me so much). So apparently she’s only like that at this particular location! He said he would go over the expected duties with her “since it’s been a while” and be clear about what is preferred when customers need help. I’m making it a resolution to be more open-minded if and when she returns, and to give her a chance to use her best customer service now that circumstances are different.

  165. Anxa*

    I mentioned above that I’m thinking of starting my own tutoring company. I know I will have to charge quite a bit just to break into minimum wage (after taxes, etc) and even more to match my current wage (which while low is quite a bit more than MW). When I do the math, the sticker prices are pretty shockingly high to me. I know I would never pay that much, but I also have heard (not just on this thread) of people paying up to $100/hr for these services, so I know that some people can afford this. I live in a small city with a median household income of $75K and was thinking of charging around $20/hour.

    It looks as though the going rate around here ranges from $15 to $80/hr. How do you feel more comfortable charging a market rate when you’re not used to considering yourself worth that much? I would never make $20/hour, so I have a hard time feeling comfortable charging that much. While that feels high to me, I know I’m still charging less than some competitors. When is it reasonable to adjust your prices to reflect objective differences in skills and qualifications, and when is it setting yourself up for failure and undermining your business? I don’t have a top tier school degree, I am not a certified teacher, don’t have an advanced degree, and my GPA is pretty middling. I do have 2 years experience and feel very comfortable with the job and the subjects I am looking to tutor.

    1. Nate*

      Tutors can charge more because they are occasional workers, and it is the nature if occasional work that it costs more. I would be shocked to find a tutor for less than $30/hour.

    2. Rob Lowe can't read*

      One thing to keep in mind is that you should either be charging for prep time or rolling in the cost of prep time into your hourly fee. So even if you think $20 per hour is fair and what you’re comfortable asking, you need to consider that you’ll have to prepare for each session – so maybe you charge $30 or $40 for each 60-minute face-to-face session, which includes the 30-60 minutes of prep you did for that session. Also consider materials costs for each student; for example, friends of mine who tutor students with dyslexia using specialized curricula end up making a lot of copies (their students keep the materials to practice in between tutoring sessions), so they also charge a materials fee to cover the cost of printing.

      I have tutored in the past, but never independently, and even when I was tutoring for a social services agency (they paid me, services were free to the families), I made $24 per hour. When I was in grad school (for teaching), one of my classmates tutored in the very affluent school district in the next town over and nobody batted an eye at the $50/hour price tag – and she wasn’t even certified at that point.

    3. SophieChotek*

      If your tutoring skills are in demand, I would probably charge more (unless you know you’ll be way over the price range in your area.) $18/seems a little low for me.

      I know ESL tutors in my area can charge around $30/ hour and that is through an agency, which suggests to me the people getting the tutors are paying more, and then the agency pays the tutors $30/hour.

      the note about prep time, etc. is pertinent too.

      1. Alice*

        I’d definitely go higher. The more you charge, the more seriously your students will take you.
        You can always volunteer some hours with people who need free tutoring, but keep that separate in your mind from tutoring for money.
        Also, save receipts that are tax-deductible.
        Good luck!

    4. CM*

      Go for mid-range and offer introductory discounts — charge $40/hr and say the first session or two will be $20/hr.

      If you set your rate at the bottom of the market, people will assume you are not as good as the tutors who charge more.

      But I think you also need to believe that you’re worth the money. Do you know anybody who uses the high-end tutors? It might help to gather some stories about why people are willing to pay so much. If you can understand why it’s worth it to them, that might convince you that you should charge a market-appropriate amount.

  166. Barbra*

    How do I get back to work? I’ve been a stay at home mom for almost three years. I’m trained and educated as a litigation paralegal. I started my career in a Midwestern state. I worked here for several years then followed my husband to the PNW where we lived for ten years in three cities, so I have had three jobs in the PNW. A year ago we moved back to our home midwestern state. I did not keep up with my contacts over the last decade. All jobs have been left on good terms due to either a move or having a baby. It’s time for me to go back to work. How do I start my search? Can I contact an employer I haven’t spoken to in over ten years? What would that email say? I’m overwhelmed by the task.

    1. Piano Girl*

      I was also a stay-at-home mom for years. I went to work for a temp agency, and my current job was my second assignment.

    2. the gold digger*

      Hi Barbra,

      I was laid off, got married, moved, didn’t work because I got really lucky for a few years, then needed to return to full time work.

      In my cover letters, I just mentioned that I had been laid off and had moved because I got married. I suppose there are recruiters who were concerned about the five year gap on my resume, but nobody asked me about it or asked why I was wanting to go back to work now. (I did sort of make it sound like I had just moved to the area.)

      I don’t think there is any problem with explaining your break by telling the truth. I would also definitely email your former employer! Say that you have moved back, that you liked working there, and do they have anything. What do you have to lose?

      And you know that the cover letter and resume advice here is the absolute best. Good luck!

  167. Jessen*

    So I have an internal interview sometime next week. I’m a bit nervous – I’ve only been at the company four months, although admittedly my scores have been stellar for a new employee during that time. I have a sense the interview may be a bit of a formality (they recruited me for this), but I still want to do my best. Any tips?

    1. Chaordic One*

      If there are any special accomplishments you’ve made during the short time you’ve been there, be sure to mention them. (If you are expecting a raise, be prepared for not getting one or for getting one that is less than you expected. In that case, don’t be visibly angry with your supervisor, although it is O.K. to be disappointed and to express that.) This is also a good time to discuss future plans, prospects and goals; to ask about future plans for your department and employer.

      It sounds like you’re ready and that you’ll do fine.

  168. manderw*

    So, I finished my latest contract yesterday. For the first time since I was a surly teen (30 years ago) I nearly got fired in the second week by the project manager, allegedly for being too slow. I’ve been doing this job properly for two years and nobody has ever said that. They told me to shape up or else and two days later the supervisor told me I’d made a great improvement, but in all honesty I didn’t actually change anything in my speed. I just took on a task that wasn’t as meticulous.

    I’m relieved I didn’t get fired in the end and finished up the contract as planned, but what a blow to my already fragile ego and sense of self-worth. As I was leaving the supervisor (who did not have a problem with me at all) said words to the effect of “see you on the next project!” but I thought to myself that my career, pathetic as it has been, is over.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I am sorry to hear that.
      This probably sound too cliched, but f this is the only time in 30 year that you “nearly got fired” it seems perhaps you are being too hard on yourself — your work must be meeting approval to continue to get contracts and projects. Perhaps I’d read this as the supervisor who said this to you having an off day, especially since the same supervisor said you were fine later.
      I am glad you finished up your contract; I hope you can enjoy the winter break (?) and be recharged and ready for new opportunities soon.

      1. Mander*

        Well, it was two different people (project manager vs site supervisor). I figured the PM was just having a bad day but it really rattled me. I took a long hiatus from actual working while I went to graduate school and now I feel like I’m way behind where I should be.

        Anyway it’s water under the bridge. I just felt a bit stung on the last day when an unexpected new project came up for early next year and the PM asked everyone except me if they wanted to do it.

  169. SeekingBetter*

    I’ve been having a little trouble estimating my years of experience. I also read somewhere, but I don’t remember where about the difference in years if you’re employed part time vs full time. Here’s a quick overview of my experience:

    Teapot Administrator, (super part-time) July 2016 – Present
    Teapot Designer Volunteer, (part-time, as needed basis) 2012 – Present
    Teapot Specialist, (full-time) 2014 – 2015
    Teapot Coordinator, (part-time) 2011 – 2014

    Thanks for your suggestions!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Is there any reason to mention you were part-time or full-time? I would just go by the years. You stuck with them through cycles of years, so to me that’s more valuable than working full time for a few months, then not at all for a few months, etc.

      1. SeekingBetter*

        I mentioned full time or part time because I wanted to have a little more detail about the type of employment/opportunity. You’re right, it’s not necessary for me to have the full time or part time written on the resume. Thanks!

  170. Diaphena*

    Last year, I was a TA for about ten hours a week. I’m rewriting the job description for my resume right now, and I want to stress how much of it involved working with students in difficult situations: our class was cursed with Murphy’s Law, apparently, and whenever it was the (often very late) night before a project was due, someone’s equipment would break, their files would get deleted, etc. etc. An honest job description would read something like this:

    TEACHING ASSISTANT, INTRO TO TEAPOTS
    Westeros University | September 2015 – May 2016
    • Hosted instructional sessions and office hours to teach students basic teapot-making skills, including painting, glazing, and designing.
    • Quietly ignored hourly profanities directed at malfunctioning equipment, until profanities turned into crying as deadlines loomed. Consoled crying students at 2 AM with hugs and verbal encouragements.
    • Tried not to (visibly) roll eyes when certain students who rarely showed up to class complained that their professor wasn’t a good teacher because they got a bad grade on a project.
    • Provided caffeinated beverages and sugary snacks for late-night office hour sessions.

    You get the idea. I loved my job and the students, but the job really was about half teapots and half, well, crisis management.

    So, AAM brains — how can I resume-ify this?

  171. Robert*

    I couldn’t tell whether this posts belongs in this thread, or the thread with the non-work-related subjects, because it’s about how problems with work, or in my case , finding work, can bleed into your personal life.

    I recently read an article where a person wrote you a letter to another job coach about being broke and looking for a job. I could relate because when I first graduated I had a cushion of money to rely on while I was waiting for a paycheck.

    But my job search lasted for so long that I lost that cushion and now have to borrow money from my mother, even though she doesn’t make enough money to be helping me, nor should she have to since I have a master’s degree.
    To add to the frustration is the fact that I can’t really have any kind of personal life without a job. I had a girlfriend, but the longer my job search lasted, the closer my relationship came to ending.

    That’s probably the most frustrating part about being an unemployed man, the fact that women don’t care about you if you don’t work. The worst part about that is that women are more often in the position of deciding whether a man is employed, because women almost unanimously run HR, so they decide whether you get interviews, or they’re the hiring managers deciding to make you an offer.

    Then as I learned the hard way, women are more and more dictating office culture and deciding who’s a good “fit.” Which usually has nothing to do with how well you do your job.

    It’s hard enough being a black man in America trying to find a good paying job that matches my education without a workplace culture mostly created by white women that makes it harder for ALL men to get and keep jobs, thus making it harder for men to be attractive to women outside the workplace that we want to date.

    1. Observer*

      If you want to be an attractive job candidate, one thing you are going to need to do is lose the attitude towards women in HR and other decision making capacities. Women are no less, and no more, entitled to make personnel policy and hiring decisions than men. By the same token, the culture and “fit” issues considered by women and no more and no less valid or common than those considered by men. It’s incredibly disrespectful and sexist. No hiring manager in their right mind, make or female, is going to want to take that on.

  172. Chaordic One*

    In our culture black men are often judged more harshly than white men, or than black or white women. I don’t know what to tell you, Robert. It sucks.

    Please be good to yourself. Exercise and eat right. Get enough rest. Have a daily schedule and routine where you get up early and go to bed early. Please don’t get discouraged. Keep applying for jobs, even if you have to push yourself to do so. When you get your job situation resolved, then you can go back to working on finding a personal relationship.

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